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alt.atheism	re about the bible quiz answers in article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes the cheribums are on the ark of the covenant when god said make no graven image he was refering to idols which were created to be worshipped the ark of the covenant wasn t wrodhipped and only the high priest could enter the holy of holies where it was kept once a year on the day of atonement i am not familiar with or knowledgeable about the original language but i believe there is a word for idol and that the translator would have used the word idol instead of graven image had the original said idol so i think you re wrong here but then again i could be too i just suggesting a way to determine whether the interpretation you offer is correct dean kaflowitz
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics in article timmbake mcl timmbake mcl ucsb edu clam bake timmons writes fallacy atheism is a faith lo i hear the faq beckoning once again wonderful rule deleted you re correct you didn t say anything about a conspiracy correction hard atheism is a faith yes rule don t mix apples with oranges how can you say that the extermination by the mongols was worse than stalin khan conquered people unsympathetic to his cause that was atrocious but stalin killed millions of his own people who loved and worshipped him and his atheist state how can anyone be worse than that i will not explain this to you again stalin did nothing in the name of atheism whethe he was or was not an atheist is irrelevant get a grip man the stalin example was brought up not as an indictment of atheism but merely as another example of how people will kill others under any name that s fit for the occasion no look again while you never said it the implication is pretty clear i m sorry but i can only respond to your words not your true meaning usenet is a slippery medium deleted wrt the burden of proof so hard atheism has nothing to prove then how does it justify that god does not exist i know there s the faq etc but guess what if those justifications were so compelling why aren t people flocking to hard atheism they re not and they won t i for one will discourage people from hard atheism by pointing out those very sources as reliable statements on hard atheism look i m not supporting any dogmatic position i d be a fool to say that in the large group of people that are atheists no people exist who wish to proselytize in the same fashion as religion how many hard atheists do you see posting here anyway maybe i mm just not looking hard enough second what makes you think i m defending any given religion i m merely recognizing hard atheism for what it is a faith i never meant to do so although i understand where you might get that idea i was merely using the bible example as an allegory to illustrate my point and yes by we i am referring to every reader of the post where is the evidence that the poster stated that he relied upon evidence for what who i think i may have lost this thread why theists are arrogant deleted because they say such and such is absolutely unalterably true because my dogma says it is true i am not prepared to issue blanket statements indicting all theists of arrogance as you are wont to do with atheists bzzt by virtue of your innocent little pronoun they you ve just issued a blanket statement at least i will apologize by qualifying my original statement with hard atheist in place of atheist would you call john the baptist arrogant who boasted of one greater than he that s what many christians do today how is that in itself arrogant guilty as charged what i meant to say was the theists who are arrogant are this way because they say other than that i thought my meaning was clear enough any position that claims itself as superior to another with no supporting evidence is arrogant thanks for your apology btw i m not worthy only seriously misinformed with your sophisticated put down of they the theists your serious misinformation shines through explained above bake timmons iii there s nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful in life than some good memory alyosha in brothers karamazov dostoevsky
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes bennett neil how bcci adapted the koran rules of banking the times august so let s see if some guy writes a piece with a title that implies something is the case then it must be so is that it gregg you haven t provided even a title of an article to support your contention this is how you support a position if you intend to have anyone respect it gregg any questions and i even managed to include the above reference with my head firmly engaged in my ass what s your excuse this supports nothing i have no reason to believe that this is piece is anything other than another anti islamic slander job you also have no reason to believe it is an anti islamic slander job apart from your own prejudices i have no respect for titles only for real content i can look up this article if i want true but i can tell you bcci was not an islamic bank why yes what s a mere report in the times stating that bcci followed islamic banking rules gregg knows islam is good and he knows bcci were bad therefore bcci cannot have been islamic anyone who says otherwise is obviously spreading slanderous propaganda if someone wants to discuss the issue more seriously then i d be glad to have a real discussion providing references etc i see if someone wants to provide references to articles you agree with you will also respond with references to articles you agree with mmm yes that would be a very intellectually stimulating debate doubtless that s how you spend your time in soc culture islam i ve got a special place for you in my kill file right next to bobby want to join him the more you post the more i become convinced that it is simply a waste of time to try and reason with moslems is that what you are hoping to achieve mathew
alt.atheism	re christian morality is in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes yet i am still not a believer is god not concerned with my disposition why is it beneath him to provide me with the evidence i would require to believe the evidence that my personality given to me by this god would find compelling the fact is god could cause you to believe anything he wants you to but think about it for a minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you or because they wanted to love you the responsibility is on you to love god and take a step toward him he promises to be there for you but you have to look for yourself those who doubt this or dispute it have not givin it a sincere effort simple logic arguments are folly if you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools of those who tried to trick him with logic our ability to reason is just a spec of creation yet some think it is the ultimate if you rely simply on your reason then you will never know more than you do now to learn you must accept that which you don t know
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article t rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mantis co uk mathew writes mccullou snake cs wisc edu mark mccullough writes in article ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes atoms are not objective they aren t even real what scientists call an atom is nothing more than a mathematical model that describes certain physical observable properties of our surroundings all of which is subjective this deserves framing it really does atoms aren t even real tell me then those atoms we have seen with electron microscopes are atoms now so what are they figments of our imaginations the evidence that atoms are real is overwhelming but i won t bother with most evidence at the moment ha ha ha sorry but having studied cell biology i have to say that i can see it through an electron microscope therefore it is real is a laughable statement stuff deleted thank you i thought i was in the twilight zone for a moment it still amazes me that many people with science backgrounds still confuse the models and observables with what even they would call the real world jim halat in article ursa bear com halat panther bears jim halat writes in article apr princeton edu datepper phoenix princeton edu david aaron tepper writes you were a liberal arts major weren tcha guess you never saw that photo of the smallest logo in the world ibm made with noble gas atoms krypton xenon i forget the specifics atoms trees electrons are all independently observable and verifiable morals aren t see the difference just for the record not that any kind of information would be likely to affect your thinking i have an msee focus in electromagnetics from penn a photo of the smallest logo in the world does not an atom make what was observed is something we can measure that matches what the mathematical model we call an atom had predicted much in the same way that we need both a particle model and a wave model for light the atomic model is a mathematical representation of physical phenomena a model that can and probably will continue to change over time that makes it subjective the model that is however the model gives us an objective way to talk about the physical world to put it another way the quantum mechanical model of the atom allows for discussion of the atom that will give repeatable and unambiguous results which is objective however as bohr and einstein duked it out mid century the interpretation of those reapeatable observable measurements is quite subjective bohr said that the observable randomness of atomic motion was inherent in the nature of the universe einstein said particle motion was deterministic but it was our measurement shortcomings that introduced the randomness they were talking about the exact same results though jim halat
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes there lies the hypocrisy dude atheism takes as much faith as theism admit it some people might think it takes faith to be an atheist but faith in what does it take some kind of faith to say that the great invisible pink unicorn does not exist does it take some kind of faith to say that santa claus does not exist if it does and it may for some people i suppose it certainly isn t as big a leap of faith to say that these things and god do exist i suppose it depends on your notion and definition of faith besides not believing in a god means one doesn t have to deal with all of the extra baggage that comes with it this leaves a person feeling wonderfully free especially after beaten over the head with it for years i agree that religion and belief is often an important psychological healer for many people and for that reason i think it s important however trying to force a psychological fantasy i don t mean that in a bad way but that s what it really is on someone else who isn t interested is extremely rude what if i still believed in santa claus and said that my belief in santa did wonderful things for my life making me a better person allowing me to live without guilt etc and then tried to get you to believe in santa too just cuz he did so much for me you d call the men in white coats as soon as you could get to a phone bake timmons iii nanci just babbling if you know and are sure of the author of this quote please send me email nm w andrew cmu edu spring is nature s way of saying let s party
alt.atheism	southern baptist convention freemasonry with the southern baptist convention convening this june to consider the charges that freemasonry is incompatible with christianity i thought the following quotes by mr james holly the anti masonic flag carrier would amuse you all the following passages are exact quotes from the southern baptist convention and freemasonry by james l holly m d president of mission and ministry to men inc n th st beaumont tx the inside cover of the book states mission ministry to men inc hereby grants permission for the reproduction of part or all of this booklet with two provisions one the material is not changed and two the source is identified i have followed these provisions freemasonry is one of the allies of the devil page iv the issue here is not moderate or conservative the issue is god and the devil page vi it is worthwhile to remember that the formulators of public school education in america were freemasons page jesus christ never commanded toleration as a motive for his disciples and toleration is the antithesis of the christian message page the central dynamic of the freemason drive for world unity through fraternity liberty and equality is toleration this is seen in the writings of the great writers of freemasonry page he jesus christ established the most sectarian of all possible faiths page for narrowness and sectarianism there is no equal to the lord jesus christ page what seems so right in the interest of toleration and its cousins liberty equality and fraternity is actually one of the subtlest lies of the father of lies page the southern baptist convention has many churches which were founded in the lodge and which have corner stones dedicated by the lodge each of these churches should hold public ceremonies of repentance and of praying the blood and the name of the lord jesus christ over the church and renouncing the oaths taken at the dedication of the church and or building page tony
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics in article madhausc rfqo ql netcom com madhaus netcom com maddi hausmann writes clam bake timmons bill shit stirrer connor sorry gotta disagree with you on this one maddi not the resemblence to bill the nickname i prefer half bake d timmons bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re requests in article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes bob if you re wanting an excuse to convert to christianity you gonna have to look elsewhere damn and i did so have my hopes up bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re thoughts on christians in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes as i know you can t get any physical problems by passive christianity unlike smoking it s not that hard to avoid christianity today anyway just ignore em right on keith err kent whadda you mean you didn t see the smiley bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re what s a shit shoveler to do was re amusing atheists and in article qvn pinnj shelley u washington edu jimh carson u washington edu james hogan writes when the various bill conners and bobbys post here i felt that their passive aggressive knock that chip off my shoulder type of approach meant that attempts at reasoned argument would be wasted i still think that however while more primitive responses teasing bronx cheers sarcasm are somewhat satisfying apologies to anyone who still thinks bobby is a performance artist some of them feed in to a pointless circular round of ad hominem name calling witness precisely my position as a newbie i tried the point by point approach to debate with these types it wasted both my time and my lifespan ignoring them is not an option since they don t go away and doing so would leave one with large stretches of complete anonymity in this group what s left healthy flaming i m sure on occassion i ve appeared to be little more than a caustic boob to some of the bobby types but why waste breath arguing with someone whose most rational though process involves his excretory system and i stand by my record of recognizing these people long before most of the rest of the group so let s see what this timmons character has in store for us bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re christian morality is in article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes yet i am still not a believer is god not concerned with my disposition why is it beneath him to provide me with the evidence i would require to believe the evidence that my personality given to me by this god would find compelling the fact is god could cause you to believe anything he wants you to but think about it for a minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you or because they wanted to love you first i don t expect them to love me if they don t even know i exist secondly i wouldn t expect them to love me simply because they were my creator i would expect to have to earn that love the responsibility is on you to love god and take a step toward him he promises to be there for you but you have to look for yourself are you daft how do i love something i don t believe exists come back when you ve learned to love your third testicle those who doubt this or dispute it have not givin it a sincere effort simple logic arguments are folly if you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools of those who tried to trick him with logic our ability to reason is just a spec of creation yet some think it is the ultimate if you rely simply on your reason then you will never know more than you do now to learn you must accept that which you don t know at which point you have stepped over the line and become a complete asshole even though it s your first offense i won t let it slip becuase i ve heard it too goddamned many times you love jesus because deep in your heart you re a cannibalistic necrophiliac because i say so and i m much more qualified to assess your motivations than you are fortunately there are some things i get to accept on evidence rather than faith one of them being that until christians like yourself quit being so fucking arrogant there will never be peace you ve all made sure of that bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re theism and fanatism was islamic genocide in article bb b ca i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes in article qv q fn horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes theism is strongly correlated with irrational belief in absolutes irrational belief in absolutes is strongly correlated with fanatism correlation is not causation and a belief that absolutes exist is not the same thing as a belief in absolutes any more than belief in a shortest route from thurles to clonmel is the same thing as a knowledge of the irish roadsystem correlation is not necessarily causation however as you might have noticed the above allows to conclude that the correlation between religion and fanatism is based on common features of religious belief sorry for the long quotes but i dont see where to cut huh are you barking mad hardly theism is not as strongly correlated with fanaticism as you say plus you could find stronger correlations if you were actually interested in the truth instead of being as you seeming are a bigot theism is correlated with fanaticism i have neither said that all fanatism is caused by theism nor that all theism leads to fanatism the point is theism increases the chance of becoming a fanatic one could of course argue that would be fanatics tend towards theism for example but i just have to loook at the times in history when theism was the dominant ideology to invalidate that conclusion that that is the basic mechanism behind it imo the influence of stalin or for that matter ayn rand invalidates your assumption that theism is the factor to be considered gullibility blind obedience to authority lack of scepticism and so on are all more reliable indicators and the really dangerous people the sources of fanaticism are often none of these things they are cynical manipulators of the gullible who know precisely what they are doing now some brands of theism and more precisely some theists do tend to fanaticism i grant you to tar all theists with this brush is bigotry not a reasoned argument and it reads to me like a warm up for censorship and restriction of religious freedom ever read animal farm define irrational belief e g is it rational to believe that reason is always useful irrational belief is belief that is not based upon reason the latter has been discussed for a long time with charley wingate one point is that the beliefs violate reason often and another that a process that does not lend itself to rational analysis does not contain reliable information well there is a glaring paradox here an argument that reason is useful based on reason would be circular and argument not based on reason would be irrational which is it the first part of the second statement contains no information because you don t say what the beliefs are if the beliefs are strong theism and or strong atheism then your statement is not in general true the second part of your sentence is patently false counterexample an axiomatic datum does not lend itself to rational analysis but is assumed to contain reliable information regardless of what process is used to obtain it compared the evidence theists have for their claims to the strength of their demands makes the whole thing not only irrational but antirational i can t agree with this until you are specific which theism to say that all theism is necessarily antirational requires a proof which i suspect you do not have the affinity to fanatism is easily seen it has to be true because i believe it is nothing more than a work hypothesis however the beliefs say they are more than a work hypothesis i don t understand this can you formalise your argument frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell decay cbnewsj cb att com dean kaflowitz writes in article c lh p k portal hq videocart com dfuller portal hq videocart com dave fuller writes jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all go to hell for not believing in god be prepared for your eternal damnation what do you mean be prepared surrounded by thumpers like yourself has proven to be hellish enough and i m not even dead yet well here s how i prepared i got one of those big beach umbrellas some of those gel pack ice things a big coleman cooler which i ve loaded up with miller draft so i like miller draft so sue me a new pair of new balance sneakers a sony watchman and a couple of cartons of bonton cheddar cheese popcorn stuff deleted actually you get a ton of weapons and ammunition followers and hole up in some kind of compound and wait for alan a deguzman calvin i m so smart it s almost scary i guess calculus mathematica i m a child progeny disclaimer the university can t afford my opinions hobbes most children are
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell in article c lh p k portal hq videocart com dfuller portal hq videocart com dave fuller writes jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all go to hell for not believing in god be prepared for your eternal damnation what do you mean be prepared surrounded by thumpers like yourself has proven to be hellish enough and i m not even dead yet well here s how i prepared i got one of those big beach umbrellas some of those gel pack ice things a big coleman cooler which i ve loaded up with miller draft so i like miller draft so sue me a new pair of new balance sneakers a sony watchman and a couple of cartons of bonton cheddar cheese popcorn i haven t decided what to wear yet what does one wear to an eternal damnation dean kaflowitz
alt.atheism	re what s a shit shoveler to do was re amusing atheists and in article timmbake mcl timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes james hogan writes fine sentiments from his very first post jim assumed an attack of ad hominem sarcastic innuendo i e shit to be shoveled he conveniently forgets this of course and then whines about his boredom ad hominem sarcastic innuendo absolutely forgotten hardly bored not really i try not to confuse life on a a with life i just can t overcome the urge to tease taunt folks who bound faq less onto a a with such a chip on their shoulder to listen to you one might think we belonged to some church i appreciate the patience of others who questioned your posting on a line by line content basis though it s hard to know what impact that might have had as compared to say shovelling fact if he were truly interested in ending the thread he wouldn t have posted his last shit to be shoveled i think i only lamented that whatever the initial satisfactions past a certain point circular abuse heaping was just that bake timmons iii there s nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful in life than some good memory alyosha in brothers karamazov dostoevsky sincere questions why are you here what are you looking for jim
alt.atheism	re societally acceptable behavior in qvh tinnsg citation ksu ksu edu yohan citation ksu ksu edu jonathan w newton writes in article c qgm dl news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes merely a question for the basis of morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior i disagree with these what society thinks should be irrelevant what the individual decides is all that is important this doesn t seem right if i want to kill you i can because that is what i decide who is society i think this is fairly obvious not really if whatever a particular society mandates as ok is ok there are always some in the society who disagree with the mandates so which societal mandates make the standard for morality how do they define what is acceptable generally by what they feel is right which is the most idiotic policy i can think of so what should be the basis unfortunately i have to admit to being tied at least loosely to the feeling in that i think we intuitively know some things to be wrong awfully hard to defend though how do we keep from a whatever is legal is what is moral position by thinking for ourselves i might agree here just because certain actions are legal does not make them moral mac michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts we ll still have billion dollar deficits michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody can explain everything to anybody g k chesterton
alt.atheism	re societally acceptable behavior i guess i m delving into a religious language area what exactly is morality or morals i never thought of eating meat to be moral or immoral but i think it could be how do we differentiate between not doing something because it is a personal choice or preference and not doing something because we see it as immoral do we fall to what the basis of these morals are also consensus positions fall to a might makes right or as you brought out if whatever is right is what is societally mandated then whoever is in control at the time makes what is right mc mac michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody can explain everything to anybody g k chesterton
alt.atheism	re christian morality is in article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes yet i am still not a believer is god not concerned with my disposition why is it beneath him to provide me with the evidence i would require to believe the evidence that my personality given to me by this god would find compelling the fact is god could cause you to believe anything he wants you to but think about it for a minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you or because they wanted to love you oh no not again there is a difference between believing that god exists and loving him for instance satan certainly believes god exists but does not love him what unbelievers request in situations like this is that god provide evidence compelling enough to believe he exists not to compel them to love him on the first day after christmas my truelove served to me leftover turkey on the second day after christmas my truelove served to me turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey days deleted flaming turkey wings pizza hut commercial and m tlu a gic bait ken arromdee arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu
alt.atheism	re gulf war and peace niks in article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes hawaii we liberated it from spain well you were going well until you hit this one hawaii was an independent country a coup by americans led to a request to annex it the us refused but eventually did annex it several years later during the spanish american war on the first day after christmas my truelove served to me leftover turkey on the second day after christmas my truelove served to me turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey days deleted flaming turkey wings pizza hut commercial and m tlu a gic bait ken arromdee arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu
alt.atheism	re christian morality is in article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes the fact is god could cause you to believe anything he wants you to but think about it for a minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you or because they wanted to love you same old bullshit not being given to delusions and wishful thinking i do not have the option of either loving or obeying that which i have so reason to believe the responsibility is on you to love god and take a step toward him he promises to be there for you but you have to look for yourself those who doubt this or dispute it have not givin it a sincere effort more bullshit i assure you in my misguided youth i made a sincere effort it was very painful being a rational person raised in christian home many others could tell the same story you choose not to believe anyone s experience which contradicts your smug theories bill mayne
alt.atheism	re societal basis for morality in apr cnsvax uwec edu nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye writes reply to cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb if morals come from what is societally accepted why follow that what right do we have to expect others to follow our notion of societally mandated morality pardon the extremism but couldn t i murder your brother and say that i was exercising my rights as i saw them was doing what felt good didn t want anyone forcing their morality on me or i don t follow your morality i believe that morality is subjective each person is entitled to his own moral attitudes mine are not a priori more correct than someone elses this does not mean however that i must judge another on the basis of his rather than my moral standards while he is entitled to believe what his own moral sense tells him the rest of society is entitled to pass laws spelling out punishments for behavior that is offensive to the majority why how might makes right how can they force their morality on me why can t i do what i want who are they to decide what if i disagree most criminals do not see their behavior as moral the may realize that it is immoral and not care they are thus not following their own moral system but being immoral good point but it is being immoral in our opinion we don t let them choose we make the decision that their actions are wrong for them for someone to lay claim to an alternative moral system he must be sincere in his belief in it and it must be internally consistent some sociopaths lack an innate moral sense i admit to lean toward the idea of an innate moral sense but have little basis for it as of yet how far can such a concept be extended and thus may be incapable of behaving morally while someone like hitler may have believed that his actions were moral we may judge him immoral by our standards do you mean that we could say it would be wrong for us to do such a thing but not him after all he was behaving morally in his own eyes and doing what he chose on what basis do we condemn other societies besides here s the buzz words on the idea that there are some actions wrong for all humans in all societies holding that morality is subjective does not mean that we must excuse the murderer why not do we have to be objective suddenly david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell mac michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody can explain everything to anybody g k chesterton
alt.atheism	re nicknames in article bb b fe i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu scott d sauyet writes okay how about scott can anybody hear me sauyet ssauyet eagel wesleyan edu could you speak up i can t hear you my sole intention was learning to fly
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article c pxqs lm darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes dean kaflowitz decay cbnewsj cb att com wrote now what i am interested in is the original notion you were discussing on moral free agency that is how can a god punish a person for not believing in him when that person is only following his or her nature and it is not possible for that person to deny what his or her reason tells him or her which is that there is no god dean i think you re letting atheist mythology great start i realize immediately that you are not interested in discussion and are going to thump your babble at me i would much prefer an answer from ms healy who seems to have a reasonable and reasoned approach to things say aren t you the creationist guy who made a lot of silly statements about evolution some time ago confuse you on the issue of divine justice according to the most fundamental doctrines of christianity when the first man sinned he was at that time the entire human race and any punishment meted out would necessarily affect the entire race of which he was the sole representive all humans coming after him would being of the same race species share in that judgement it has nothing to do with who deserves what from the perspective of god humanity is but one category of created things and that category is condemned duh gee then we must be talking christian mythology now i was hoping to discuss something with a reasonable logical person but all you seem to have for your side is a repetition of the same boring mythology i ve seen a thousand times before i am deleting the rest of your remarks unless i spot something that approaches an answer because they are merely a repetition of some uninteresting doctrine or other and contain no thought at all i have to congratulate you though bill you wouldn t know a logical argument if it bit you on the balls such a persistent lack of function in the face of repeated attempts to assist you in learning which i have seen in this forum and others in the past speaks of a talent that goes well beyond my own meager abilities i just don t seem to have that capacity for ignoring outside influences dean kaflowitz
alt.atheism	re is morality constant was re biblical rape my last response in this thread fell into a bit bucket and vanished though appearing locally i ll repost it since i always feel slighted when someone appears to ignore one of my postings in a conversational thread i don t want rob to think i m doing so since this is now dated however don t feel compelled to respond in article apr watson ibm com strom watson ibm com rob strom writes i was making two separate points both of which attack face value bible interpretation to judge the bible s value today you judge it based on the way it is used today that is what do commentators actually say what do rabbis teach etc i suspect you meant this in context of the jewish tradition you have been referring to one problem with a highly interpreted tradition like this is what happens when a schism occurs and over time certain large and influential branches of the heretical group come to favor exactly a face value interpretation to judge the bible s value when originally written you a read it in the context of its time not with today s assumptions and b compare it to the practices of surrounding people while the context of the time is important value judgments must ultimately be according to current understanding or at least to some base standard relative stability success of a society e g this is obviously true in comparing it to practices of surrounding people for instance according to the bible the surrounding people were immoral savages with repulsive and inhuman habits we need to look rather at what those peoples were really like for instance in what way is it better to worship a single god whose presence is symbolically strongest in a tent or temple over multiple gods some of whose presence is symbolically represented in a statue by the bible s own terms idolatry is inherently evil but i see no evidence that the followers of the various other religions of the area and time were particularly bad people relative to the people in the bible scissors and cloth now in the past our ancestors did cut cloth with scissors but they at least knew that their inhumane neighbors cut it with their bare teeth so this was a relatively enlightened step forward from their earlier barbarism and made the transition to modern civilized paper cutting that much easier sounds good but it presupposes teeth rending neighbors which i see no support for one can argue that post facto assertion of inhumane neighbors can be used to make moral points but that doesn t mean that the actual neighbors really were inhuman more to the point such dehumanization of the people across the river or over the mountain or even of a different people dwelling among us is all too common that complex and benign moral traditions have evolved based on particular mythic interpretations of that history is interesting but i still don t think it fair to take that long tradition of interpretation and use it to attack condemnation of the original history note that i m speaking of historical interpretation here for instance claiming that hammurabi s an eye for an eye was primitive brutal retribution while moses version was an enlightened benign fine because the tradition has since interpreted the phrase that way as of years ago or so they probably both meant the same thing to be sure i m arguing from a parochial perspective i belong to this tiny tribe which has struggled against overwhelming odds for survival as a distinct tribe and this book is the book of my tribe the book commands us to dedicate ourselves to study to improve the world and to set an example as a light to the nations we ve revered the book and i think we ve been successful as scientists as artists and musicians as leaders in important humanitarian causes it s hard for me to separate the success of my people from the virtue of our book you d have to argue that we d have done significantly better with a different book or with no book or that another tribe with a different book or with no book has done significantly better i don t belittle the accomplishments particularly the intellectual ones of the jewish people i have given up on trying to think by analogy since i don t know of any other tribe that is at all similar the closest i can think of are the romany but i don t know enough about them to make a meaningful comparison i think a tradition of reflective study of flexible rather than dogmatic interpretation is a good thing i think that with such an attitude a case could be made that you could have done as well starting with a captain america comic or whatever the babylonian equivalent would have been jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	re satanic verses once again this posting has been delayed for about a week by falling between some software cracks in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes as promised here is rafiq zakaria s discussion of the nature of the so called satanic verses from which rushdie s title has been taken rafiq zakaria muhammad and the quran penguin here follows an introduction to the controversial incident and an apologetic explanation purporting to show why it couldn t actually have happened the historicity of the episode doesn t matter to what follows i don t know whether i m quoting gregg or zakaria below anyway back to current affairs rushdie has by his own admission drawn on the version given by the orientalist watt among others this incident is not something rushdie or watt or anyone else dug up from nowhere it is a well known story a myth if you will known according to umar khan to every muslim school boy and girl and so presumably to rushdie and to gibreel farishta and then allowed his imagination to run wild yes this is what writing fiction is all about rushdie was writing about a crisis of faith and chose this myth to present it by placing the actor gibreel in the role of the angel whose name he took rushdie was not writing a history or theology book and nowhere claims or implies that this is what actually happened it s somewhat like stories woven around the relationship between jesus and the reformed prostitute mary magdalene another myth or those referring to the arthurian mythos or the grail legend or the wandering jew or dozens of others if you can stand to read the work of a blasphemer consider salman rushdie s children s book haroun and the sea of stories for an idea of the way a storyteller a specific storyteller works with existing story lines to ridicule muhammad s integrity no muhammad s mahound s integrity is not really impugned in this part of the story and there s no reason to think this was rushdie s intent gibreel as the archangel produces the verses divine and satanic though he doesn t know their provenance it is not implied in a straight reading that muhammad influences them not my voice i d never know such words i m no classy speaker never was never will be but this isn t my voice it s a voice mahound s eyes open wide he s seeing some kind of vision staring at it oh that s right gibreel remembers me he s seeing me my lips moving being moved by what whom don t know can t say nevertheless here they are coming out of my mouth up my throat past my teeth the words being god s postman is no fun yaar butbutbut god isn t in this picture god knows whose postman i ve been it s ambiguous is mahound somehow manipulating gibreel is it satan or something else the answer is not given to be sure the question is raised this novel explores faith and the role of revelation in religion among other things addressing loss of faith implicitly raises questions about the truth of revelation but this novel proposes no answers at least not directly the very existence of a newsgroup named alt atheism raises the same questions more forcefully and does propose some answers which is the real relevance if rushdie s mild fictional exploration is filth and lies and he asked for what he got are we next on the fatwa list that s a rhetorical question of course jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	re who says the apostles were tortured another article that fell between the cracks in article qiu innpq srvr engin umich edu ingles engin umich edu ray ingles writes as evidence for the resurrection it is often claimed that the disciples were tortured to death for their beliefs and still did not renounce their claim that jesus had come back from the dead now i skimmed acts and such and i found a reference to this happening to stephen but no others where does this apparently very widely held belief come from is there any evidence outside the bible is there any evidence in the bible i sure haven t found any briefly no there is widespread folklore but no good documentary evidence or even solid rumor concerning the deaths of the apostles further the usual context of such arguments as you observe is no martyrs for a lie i e the willingness of these people to die rather than recant is evidence for the truth of their belief this adds the quite stronger twist that the proposed martyrs must have been offered the chance of life by recanting since we don t even know how or where they died we certainly don t have this information by the way even in the case of stephen it is not at all clear that he could have saved himself by recanting the willingness of true believers to die for their belief be it in jesus or jim jones is well documented so martyrdom in and of itself says little see kings for a biblical account of the martyrdom of priests of baal jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	re who has read rushdie s the satanic verses another one rescued from the bit bucket over the years the furor over this book has been discussed on a a and elsewhere on the net generally the discussion comes down to the contention on the one hand that tsv contains such blood libel against islam as to merit if not death than at least banning and probably some sort of punishment and on the other that rushdie particularly as a non muslim in a western country had every right to write and publish whatever he chose regardless of whether some muslims find it offensive without fear of persecution or death i am naturally inclined to the latter position but find myself in an interesting position because i think this is a fine book only incidentally concerned with islam and moreover i m damned if i can find anything malevolently offensive in it over the years when i have made this point various primarily muslim posters have responded saying that yes indeed they have read the book and had called it such things as filth and lies i would rank rushdie s book with hitler s mein kempf or worse and so on unfortunately these comments are usually generalities and attempts to follow up by requesting explanations for what specifically is so offensive have met either with stony silence more generalizations or inaccurate or out of context references to the book which lead me to believe that few of them have actually read it corrections and attempts to discuss the text in context have been ignored anyway since i seem to be the only one following this particular line of discussion i wonder how many of the rest of the readership have read this book what are your thoughts on it jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	re is morality constant was re biblical rape this response originally fell into a bit bucket i m reposting it just so bill doesn t think i m ignoring him in article c w pv jxd darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes jim perry perry dsinc com wrote some stuff about biblical morality though bill s quote of me had little to do with what he goes on to say bill i m sorry to have been busy lately and only just be getting around to this apparently you have some fundamental confusions about atheism i think many of these are well addressed in the famous faq your generalisms are then misplaced atheism needn t imply materialism or the lack of an absolute moral system however i do tend to materialism and don t believe in absolute morality so i ll answer your questions how then can an atheist judge value an atheist judges value in the same way that a theist does according to a personal understanding of morality that i don t believe in an absolute one doesn t mean that i don t have one i m just explicit as in the line of postings you followed up that when i express judgment on a moral issue i am basing my judgment on my own code rather than claiming that it is in some absolute sense good or bad my moral code is not particular different from that of others around me be they christians muslims or atheists so when i say that i object to genocide i m not expressing anything particularly out of line with what my society holds if your were to ask why i think morality exists and has the form it does my answer would be mechanistic to your taste that a moral code is a prerequisite for a functioning society and that humanity probably evolved morality as we know it as part of the evolution of our ability to exist in large societies thereby achieving considerable survival advantages you d probably say that god just made the rules neither of us can convince the other but we share a common understanding about many moral issues you think you get it from your religion i think i get it and you get it from early childhood teaching that you don t like what god told people to do says nothing about god or god s commands it says only that there was an electrical event in your nervous system that created an emotional state that your mind coupled with a pre existing thought set to form that reaction i think you ve been reading the wrong sort of comic books but in prying through the gobbledygook i basically agree with what you re saying i do believe that my mental reactions to stimuli such as god commanded the genocide of the canaanites is mechanistic but of course i think that s true of you as well my reaction has little to do with whether god exists or even with whether i think he does but if a god existed who commanded genocide i could not consider him good which is supposedly an attribute of god all of this being so you have excluded yourself from any discussion of values right wrong goood evil etc and cannot participate your opinion about the bible can have no weight whatsoever hmm yes i think some heavy faq reading would do you some good i have as much place discussing values etc as any other person in fact i can actually accomplish something in such a discussion by framing the questions in terms of reason for instance it is clear that in an environment where neighboring tribes periodically attempt to wipe each other out based on imagined divine commands then the quality of life will be generally poor so a system that fosters coexistence is superior if quality of life is an agreed goal an absolutist on the other hand can only thump those portions of a bible they happen to agree with and say this is good even if the act in question is unequivocally bad by the standards of everyone in the discussion the attempt to define someone or a group of people as excluded from discussion such that they cannot participate and their opinions given no weight whatsoever is the lowest form or reasoning ad hominem poisoning the well and presumably the resort of someone who can t rationally defend their own ideas of right wrong and the bible jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	re origins of the bible in article apr cs nott ac uk eczcaw mips nott ac uk a wainwright writes hi i have been having an argument about the origins of the bible lately with a theist acquaintance he stated that thousands of bibles were discovered at a certain point in time which were syllable perfect this therefore meant that there must have been one copy at a certain time the time quoted by my acquaintace was approximately years after the death of jesus you can tell your friend from me that i was in a publisher s warehouse one time and saw thousands of copies of the joy of cooking and every one of them was syllable perfect i have since sold all i own and become a follower of the joy of cooking the incident i mentioned convinced me once and for all that the joy of cooking is inspired by god and the one true path to his glory dean kaflowitz may the sauce be with you
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics in article qsum inng k shelley u washington edu jimh carson u washington edu james hogan writes i think you ve missed the point take alt atheism for instance it s an exponent based anagram when fully extended it translates to dig tunnels deep store grain everywhere prepare for the coming struggle you ll no doubt recognize this as a quote from chairman mao thus i think you ll have to admit that atheists have a lot more up their sleeve than you might have suspected agnostics will be sent to the gulag under the mao atheist new order now where did i put my little red book or was that green jim if god is dead and the actor plays his part sting his words of fear will find their way to a place in your heart history without the voice of reason every faith is its own curse will teach us without freedom from the past things can only get worse nothing
alt.atheism	re christian morality is dan schaertel dps nasa kodak com wrote since this is alt atheism i hope you don t mind if we strongly disagree the fact is god could cause you to believe anything he wants you to but think about it for a minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you or because they wanted to love you the responsibility is on you to love god and take a step toward him he promises to be there for you but you have to look for yourself indeed knock and it shall be opened to you dan why didn t this work i firmly believed in god for years but i eventually realised i was only deluding myself fearful to face the truth ultimately the only reason what kept me believing was the fear of hell the mental states i had sillily attributed to divine forces or devil s attempts to destroy my faith were nothing more than my imagination and it is easy to achieve the same mental states at will my faith was just learned fear in a disguise those who doubt this or dispute it have not givin it a sincere effort god is demanding too much dan what was it i believed in for years if sincere effort is equivalent to active suspension of disbelief what it was in my case i d rather quit if god does not help me to keep the faith i can t go on besides i am concerned with god s morality and mental health does she really want us to believe in herself without any help revelations guidance or anything i can feel if she has created us why didn t she make the task any easier why are we supposed to love someone who refuses to communicate with us what is the point of eternal torture for those who can t believe i love god just as much as she loves me if she wants to seduce me she ll know what to do simple logic arguments are folly if you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools of those who tried to trick him with logic our ability to reason is just a spec of creation yet some think it is the ultimate if you rely simply on your reason then you will never know more than you do now your argument is of the type you ll know once you try yet there are many atheists who have sincerely tried and believed for many years but were eventually honest enough to admit that they had lived in a virtual reality what else but reason i can use i don t have the spiritual means christians often refer to my conscience disagrees with the bible i don t even believe i have a soul i am fully dependent on my body indeed i am this body when it goes up with flames so does my identity god can entertain herself with copies of me if she wants to learn you must accept that which you don t know what does this mean to learn you must accept that you don t know something right o but to learn you must accept something i don t know why this is not the way i prefer to learn it is unwise to merely swallow everything you read suppose i write a book telling how the great invisible pink unicorn tm has helped me in my daily problems would you accept this since you can t know whether it is true or not note that the gipu is also omnipotent omnipresent and loves just about everyone besides he and she is guiding every writer on this planet you and me and not just some people who write legendary stories years ago your god is just one aspect of his and her presence petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics is the truth pihatie c finou oulu fi physics is the rule of sf oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry is the game
alt.atheism	re gulf war selling arms in article v rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes mccullou snake cs wisc edu mark mccullough writes from a parallel thread much about definitions of bombs etc deleted aaaahhh tell me how many innocents were killed in concentration camps mm hmm now how many more were scheduled to enter concentration camps had they not been shut down because they were captured by the allies mm hmm now civilians died in that war so no matter what you do civilians die what is the proper course don t sell the bastard arms and information in the first place ruthlessly hunt down those who do especially if they re in positions of power mathew i agree this it seems is the crux of your whole position isn t it that the us shouldn t have supported hussein and sold him arms to fight iran i agree and i agree in ruthlessly hunting down those who did or do but we did sell arms to hussein and it s a done deal now he invades kuwait so do we just sit back and say well we sold him all those arms i suppose he just wants to use them now too bad for kuwait no unfortunately sitting back and letting things be is not the way to correct a former mistake destroying hussein s military potential as we did was the right move but i agree with your statement reagan and bush made a grave error in judgment to sell arms to hussein so it s really not the gulf war you abhor so much it was the u s s and the west s shortsightedness in selling arms to hussein which ultimately made the war inevitable right if so then i agree more deleted mathew regards jim b
alt.atheism	re studies on book of mormon i think that the transcedental temptation by paul kurtz has a good section on the origins of mormonism you might want to look at scott o
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics in article timmbake mcl timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes from timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons subject amusing atheists and agnostics date apr gmt some big deletions many atheists show a poor understanding of human nature so many people who would otherwise sympathize with their cause only shake their heads in disbelief at such childish ranting another in a string of idiotic generalizations gad i m surprised i got this far down in the post i guess some just like seeing their names up on a crt like me phil trodwell this space i d be happy to ram a goddam volt cattle for rent prod into that tub with you right now but not cheap this radio hunter s thompson
alt.atheism	re where are they now perhaps it s prophetic that the week where are they now appears and i can claim to be a still active old timer my news software gets bit rot and ships outgoing articles into a deep hole somewhere anyway here s a repost in article qi innf n senator bedfellow mit edu tcbruno athena mit edu tom bruno writes which brings me to the point of my posting how many people out there have been around alt atheism since i ve done my damnedest to stay on top of the newsgroup but when you fall behind you really fall behind these days you don t have to fall far behind last monday admittedly after a long weekend but i had messages just in those few days aside from a hiatus while changing jobs last fall i ve been here since has anyone tried to keep up with the deluge inquiring minds want to know also does anyone keep track of where the more infamous posters to alt atheism end up once they leave the newsgroup just curious i guess hell norway the rubber room at the funny farm seminary it is not given to us to know jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	strong weak atheism did that faq ever got modified to re define strong atheists as not those who assert the nonexistence of god but as those who assert that they believe in the nonexistence of god there was a thread on this earlier but i didn t get the outcome adam no nickname cooper adam john cooper verily often have i laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had no claws
alt.atheism	re faith and dogma in article apr edt neat cs toronto edu tgk cs toronto edu todd kelley writes in light of what happened in waco i need to get something of my chest sadly understandable faith and dogma are dangerous yes religion inherently encourages the implementation of faith and dogma and for that reason i scorn religion to be fair you should really qualify this as semitic western religions but you basically go ahead and do this later on anyway i have expressed this notion in the past some christians debated with me whether christianity leaves any room for reasoning i claimed rationality is quelled out of christianity by faith and dogma again this should really be evaluated at a personal level for example there was only one jesus presumably and he probably didn t say all that many things and yet seemingly billions and billions of christian sects have arisen perhaps there is one that is totally dedicated to rationalism and believes in christ as in pantheism it would seem to go against the bible but it is amazing what people come up with under the guise of personal interpretation a philosopher cannot be a christian because a philosopher can change his mind whereas a christian cannot due to the nature of faith and dogma present in any religion this is a good point we have here the quintessential christian he sets up a system of values beliefs for himself which work very well and every event experience is understandable and deablable within the framework of this system however we also have an individual who has the inability at least not without some difficulty to change which is important because the problem with such a system is the same as with any system one cannot be open minded to the point of testing hypotheses against the basic premise of the system without destroying whatever faith is invested therein unless of course all the tests fail in other words the fairer way would be to test and evaluate moralities without the bias responsibility of losing retaining a system i claimed that a christian philosopher is not a christian but is a person whose beliefs at the moment correspond with those of christianity consider that a person visiting or guarding a prison is not a prisoner unless you define a prisoner simply to be someone in a prison can we define a prisoner to be someone who at the moment is in a prison can we define a christian to be someone who at the moment has christian beliefs no because if a person is free to go he is not a prisoner similarly if a person is not constrained by faith and dogma he is not a christian interesting but again when it seems to basically boil down to individual nuances although not always i will admit and probably it is the mass oriented divisions which are the most appalling it becomes irrelevant unfortunately i admit it s a word game i m going by the dictionary definition of religion religion n concern over what exists beyond the visible world differentiated from philosophy in that it operates through faith or intuition rather than reason webster s now let s go beyond the word game i don t claim that religion causes genocide i think that if all humans were atheist there would still be genocide there will always be humans who don t think there will always be humans who don t ask themselves what is the real difference between themselves and people with different colored skin or a different language or different beliefs granted religion is like the gun that doesn t kill anybody religion encourages faith and dogma and although it doesn t directly condemn people it encourages the use of just because thinking it is just because thinking that kills people in which case the people become the bullets and the religion as the gun merely offers them a way to more adequately do some harm with themselves if i may be so bold as to extend your similie sure religion has many good qualities it encourages benevolence and philanthropy ok so take out only the bad things like faith dogma and tradition put in the good things like careful reasoning and science the result is secular humanism wouldn t it be nice if everyone were a secular humanist to please the supernaturalists you might even leave god in there but the secular emphasis would cause the supernaturalists to start thinking and they too would realize that a belief in a god really doesn t put anyone further ahead in understanding the universe ok i m just poking fun at the supernaturalists also understandable of course not all humans are capable of thought and we d still have genocide and maybe even some mass suicide but not as much i m willing to bet on that todd todd kelley tgk cs toronto edu department of computer science university of toronto best regards adam john cooper verily often have i laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had no claws
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article c qt p mvo blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes i think many reading this group would also benefit by knowing how deviant the view as i ve articulated it above which may not be the true view of khomeini is from the basic principles of islam from the point ov view of an atheist i see you claim khomeini wasn t practicing true islam but i m sure that he would have said the same about you how am i a member of neither group supposed to be able to tell which one of you two is really a true muslim this is a very good point i have already made the clear claim that khomeini advocates views which are in contradition with the qur an and have given my arguments for this this is something that can be checked by anyone sufficiently interested khomeini being dead really can t respond but another poster who supports khomeini has responded with what is clearly obfuscationist sophistry this should be quite clear to atheists as they are less susceptible to religionist modes of obfuscationism so to answer your question the only way you can judge is by learning more about islam that is by reading the qur an and understanding it s basic principles once one has done this it is relatively easy to see who is following the principles of islam and who is acting in a way at odds with islam khomeini by attributing a superhuman status to twelve muslim historical leaders is at variance with one of basic principles of islam which is that no human being is metaphysically different than any other human being and in no sense any closer to god in metaphysical nature gregg
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes this supports nothing i have no reason to believe that this is piece is anything other than another anti islamic slander job i have no respect for titles only for real content i can look up this article if i want true but i can tell you bcci was not an islamic bank seeing as i m spending my time responding to propaganda in responding to this little sub thread i really don t feel a deep need to do more than make statements to the effect that the propaganda is false if someone wants to discuss the issue more seriously then i d be glad to have a real discussion providing references etc but you must admit that this is a more thorough argument supporting a proposition than your it s propganda because i say so i hope you can see why we might not find this argument compelling if you want to refute a point then do so but do it right well again i am doing as much as the poster i was replying too i am quite busy and really don t have the time to respond in full scholarly form to every accusation that is flippantly made by someone who s being clearly antagonistic and have you ever considered that perhaps these people actually believe what they say that they are not just spreading propaganda i have considered it but if someone spreads falsehoods out of ignorance then they are still spreading falsehoods those falsehoods generally do not come out of nowhere but are produced by people who know that what they are saying is at least not the whole truth i still consider such spreading of falsehoods propaganda on some level i m not in a position to say since i know nothing about the situation that does not in my estimation qualify me as having my head up my ass bob i never accused you of having your head up your ass it takes me quite some time in dealing with someone before accusing them of having their head up their ass i was accusing the original poster benedikt i believe of being so impaired cheers gregg
alt.atheism	re who says the apostles were tortured the willingness of true believers to die for their belief be it in jesus or jim jones is well documented so martyrdom in and of itself says little it does say something about the depth of their belief religion has both deluded believers and con men the difference is often how far they will follow their beliefs i have no first hand or even second hand knowledge of how the original apostles died if they began a myth in hopes of exploiting it for profit and followed that myth to the death that would be inconsistent real con men would bail out when it was obvious it would lead to discomfort pain and death the story in kings regarding the prophets of baal is of no help in this debate one can easily assume that they believed that no overwhelming vindication of elijah would be forthcoming he was simply a fool who would be shown to be so the fire from heaven was swift and their seizure and deaths were equally swift
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article c r c b unix portal com danb shell portal com dan e babcock writes in article c qt p mvo blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes i think many reading this group would also benefit by knowing how deviant the view as i ve articulated it above which may not be the true view of khomeini is from the basic principles of islam from the point ov view of an atheist i see you claim khomeini wasn t practicing true islam but i m sure that he would have said the same about you how am i a member of neither group supposed to be able to tell which one of you two is really a true muslim easy just read the koran because the koran is perfect there is no possibility of disagreement okay i see smilies so this isn t supposed to be a serious post on the other hand i would suppose it does has some motivation behind it apparently the idea is to poke fun at religion but there is presumably some sort of reasoning behind it as an argument this statement is worthless presuming the qur an is a perfect religious text whatever that might be there is still plenty of room for disagreement about its implications for issues far from essentials i ve already responded to the question of how a judgment might be made between two people who in fact do disagree about islam which doesn t presume anything about the qur an other than its having sufficient clarity for all important disputes about the basic principles of islam this hardly constitutes a claim that no two people could have disagreements about all issues relevant to islam gregg
alt.atheism	re societally acceptable behavior in article c qgm dl news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes from cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb subject societally acceptable behavior date mon apr gmt merely a question for the basis of morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior who is society how do they define what is acceptable how do we keep from a whatever is legal is what is moral position mac wow you got me thinking now this is an interesting question in that recently there has been a move in society to classify previously socially unacceptable yet legal activities as ok in the past it seems to me there were always two coexisting methods of social control first and most explicit is legal control that is the set of actions we define as currently illegal and having a specifically defined set of punishments secondly and somewhat more hidden is social control these are the actions which are considered socially unacceptable and while not covered by legal control are scrictly controled by social censure ideally if socialization is working as it should legal control is hardly ever needed since most people voluntarilly control their actions due to the pressure of social censure the control manifests itself in day to day life as guilt and morality i ve heard it said and fully believe that if it weren t for the vast majority of people policing themselves legal control would be absolutely impossible lately last years however there has been a move to attempt to dissengage the individual from societal control ie if it ain t illegal then don t pick on me i m not saying this is wrong merely that it is a byproduct of a society which has a high education level a high exposure to alternative ideas via the popular media a high level of institutionalized individual rights and a me oriented culture i guess what i m saying is that we appear to be in a state of transition here in the western world in that we still have many ideas about what we can can t allow people to do based entirely on personal squeamishness yet we are fully bent on maximizing individual freedoms to the max as long as those freedoms don t impinge on another s imho society is trying to persue two mutually exclusive ends here while we appreciate and persue individual rights these satisfy the old territoriality and dominance instincts the removal of socialized inherent fears based on ignorance will result in the continued destabilization of society i got no quick fix i have no idea how we can get ourselves out of this mess i know i would never consent to the roll back of personal freedoms in order to stabilize society yet i believe development of societies follow a darwinian process which selects for stability can we find a social model which maximizes indiv freed s yet is stable perhaps it is possible to live with a non stable society anybody see a way out comments ps therefore answer to question we don t do we want to phil trodwell this space i d be happy to ram a goddam volt cattle for rent prod into that tub with you right now but not cheap this radio hunter s thompson
alt.atheism	re gulf war was re death penalty was re political atheists in article v rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes don t sell the bastard arms and information in the first place ruthlessly hunt down those who do especially if they re in positions of power i looked back at this and asked some questions of various people and got the following information which i had claimed and you pooh poohed the us has not sold iraq any arms their navy is entirely made of f ussr vessels their airforce not including stuff captured from kuwait which i am not as sure about doesn t include any us equipment their missiles are all non us their tanks are almost all soviet with about french tanks older ones the only us stuff in the iraqi arsenal is a few m s those were not sold to iraq iraq captured them from other countries like kuwait information is hard to prove you are claiming that the us sold information prove it now how did the us build up iraq again i just gave some fairly conclusive evidence that the us didn t sell arms to iraq information is hard to prove almost certainly if the us did sell information then that fact is classified and you can t prove it if you can provide some useful evidence that the us sold arms or valuable intelligence to iraq i am very interested but not if you just make claims based on what everyone knows mccullou whipple cs wisc edu never program and drink beer at the same m time it doesn t work
alt.atheism	re who has read rushdie s the satanic ve in article r cl innknk bozo dsinc com perry dsinc com jim perry writes anyway since i seem to be the only one following this particular line of discussion i wonder how many of the rest of the readership have read this book what are your thoughts on it i read it i found it wonderful for some reason no flames please i was reminded of hemingway carl orff and van gogh not all at once though geoff arnold pc nfs architect sun select geoff arnold east sun com what if they made the whole thing up the great lie by four guys two thousand years ago over wine the tear garden
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is reply to frank d s uucp frank o dwyer the problem for the objectivist is to determine the status of moral truths and the method by which they can be established if we accept that such judgements are not reports of what is but only relate to what ought to be see naturalistic fallacy then they cannot be proved by any facts about the nature of the world this can be avoided in at least two ways by leaving the good undefined since anyone who claims that they do not know what it is is either lying or so out of touch with humanity as to be undeserving of a reply if the good is undefined undefinable but you require of everyone that they know innately what is right you are back to subjectivism by defining the good solely in terms of evaluative terms ditto here an evaluative statement implies a value judgement on the part of the person making it at this point the objectivist may talk of self evident truths pretty perceptive that prof flew but can he deny the subjectivist s claim that self evidence is in the mind of the beholder of course by denying that subject object is true dichotomy please explain how this helps i don t see your argument if not what is left of the claim that some moral judgements are true if nothing then no moral judgements are true this is a thing that is commonly referred to as nihilism it entails that science is of no value irrepective of the fact that some people find it useful how anyone arrives at relativism subjectivism from this argument beats me this makes no sense either flew is arguing that this is where the objectivist winds up not the subjectivist furthermore the nihilists believed in nothing except science materialism revolution and the people the subjectivist may well feel that all that remains is that there are some moral judgements with which he would wish to associate himself to hold a moral opinion is he suggests not to know something to be true but to have preferences regarding human activity and if those preferences should include terrorism that moral opinion is not true likewise if the preferences should include noterrorism that moral opinion is not true why should one choose a set of preferences which include terrorisim over one which includes noterrorism oh no reason this is patently absurd and also not the position of the subjectivist as has been pointed out to you already by others ditch the strawman already and see my reply to mike cobb s root message in the thread societal basis for morality david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	re he has risen reply to kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan our lord and savior david keresh has risen he has been seen alive spread the word jeez can t he get anything straight i told him to wait for three days god david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	college atheists i read an article about a poll done of students at the ivy league schools in which it was reported that a third of the students indentified themselves as atheists this is a lot higher than among the general population i wonder what the reasons for this discrepancy are is it because they are more intelligent younger is this the wave of the future david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics reply to timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons the same kind of ignorance is demonstrated in just about every post in this newsgroup for instance generalizations about christianity are popular which newsgroup have you been reading the few anti christian posts are virtually all in response to some christian posting some you will all burn in hell kind of drivel i m a soft atheist courtesy of the faq but even i know enough about the bible to see that it repeatedly warns of false prophets preaching in the name of god bake it is transparently obvious that you are a theist pretending to be an atheist you probably think you are very clever but we see this all the time but the possibilities of creator and eternity carry with them too much emotional power to dismiss merely on the basis of this line but of course you have dismissed them because you are an atheist right just like any other religion hard atheism is a faith in other words you didn t read the faq after all david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	re what s a shit shoveler to do was re amusing atheists and reply to jimh carson u washington edu james hogan so what s someone with a prediliction to shit shoveling to do when the latest i know what you atheists are about arrival on a a shows up ignore the bills bobbys bakes try to engage in reasonable discourse while flame fests have been among some of the most entertaining threads here other tugs of war with folks like bobby have grown old before their time i take the view that they are here for our entertainment when they are no longer entertaining into the kill file they go david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics timmbake mcl ucsb edu half bake timmons writes maddi whirr click whirr frank o dwyer might also be contained in that shell pop stack to determine whirr click whirr killfile keith allen schneider frank closet theist o dwyer maddi the mad sound o geek hausmann no no no i ve already been named by killfile keith my nickname is maddi never a useful post hausmann and don t you dare forget it half there s nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful in life than some good memory alyosha in brothers karamazov dostoevsky you really should quote ivan karamazov instead on a a as he was the atheist maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california kids please don t try this at home remember i post professionally
alt.atheism	re death penalty was re political athei date tue apr from mathew mathew mantis co uk there s a great film called manufacturing consent noam chomsky and the media it s a canadian film i saw it at the berlin film festival this year if you get a chance go and see it i can t really recommend any books from having read them i m thinking of ordering a book which a reviewer claimed gives a good introduction to his political activism i could dig up the title mathew could it be the chomsky reader edited by james peck published by pantheon
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics date apr gmt from bake timmons timmbake mcl ucsb edu remember koresh dried for your sins and pass that beef jerky umm umm though i wasn t there at least i can rely on you now to keep me posted on what what he s doing what a cook off
alt.atheism	re societally acceptable behavior cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes merely a question for the basis of morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior who is society society is the collection of individuals which will fall under self defined rules in terms of un decisions all the sets of peoples who are represented at the un are considered part of that society if we then look at us federal laws provided by representatives of purely us citizens then the society for that case would be the citizens of the us and so on how do they define what is acceptable acceptable are those behaviours which are either legislated for the society by representatives of that society or those behaviours which are non verbally and in effect non consciously such as picking your nose on the oprah winfrey show no one does it but there is no explicit law against doing it in many cases there are is no definition of whether or not a behaviour is acceptable but one can deduce these behaviours by observation how do we keep from a whatever is legal is what is moral position in an increasingly litigation mad society this trap is becoming exceedingly difficult to avoid with the infusion and strengthening of ethnic cultures in american and australian to bring in my local perspective culture the boundaries of acceptable behaviour are ever widening and legislation may eventually become the definition of moral behaviour for instance some cultures dominant religion call for live sacrifice of domesticated animals most fundamental christians would find this practice abhorrent however is it moral according to the multicultural american society this kind of problem may only be definable by legislation obviously within any society there will be differences in opinion in what is acceptable behaviour or not and much of this will be due to different environmental circumstances rather than merely different opinions one thing is for sure there is no universal moral code which will suit all cultures in all situations there may however be some globally accepted mores which can be agreed upon and instantiated as a globally enforcable concept the majority of mores will not be common until all peoples upon this earth are living in a similar environment if that ever happens jeff nonickname clark
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell in article apr nuscc nus sg cmtan iss nus sg tan chade meng dan writes from cmtan iss nus sg tan chade meng dan subject re you will all go to hell date tue apr gmt in article jsn psuvm psu edu jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all go to hell for not believing in god be prepared for your eternal damnation arrgg another one of those another letter to the big guy dear god please take them back to heaven leave us rational intelligent people alone love meng the unenlightened one tan chade meng there is light at the end of the tunnel singapore cmtan iss nus sg it s an on coming train meng i have a better prayer dear god please save the world from the likes of these tammy
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell in article c s zm e cbnewsj cb att com decay cbnewsj cb att com dean kaflowitz writes from decay cbnewsj cb att com dean kaflowitz subject re you will all go to hell date tue apr gmt in article c lh p k portal hq videocart com dfuller portal hq videocart com dave fuller writes jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all go to hell for not believing in god be prepared for your eternal damnation what do you mean be prepared surrounded by thumpers like yourself has proven to be hellish enough and i m not even dead yet well here s how i prepared i got one of those big beach umbrellas some of those gel pack ice things a big coleman cooler which i ve loaded up with miller draft so i like miller draft so sue me a new pair of new balance sneakers a sony watchman and a couple of cartons of bonton cheddar cheese popcorn i haven t decided what to wear yet what does one wear to an eternal damnation dean kaflowitz you should wear your nicest boxer shorts and bring plenty of spf sunscreen i ll grab my bathing suit towerl and some veggie hotdogs and we can have bonfire cookout does that sound good enough to you dean every a a poster is invited tammy no trim healy
alt.atheism	re death penalty gulf war long from jbrown batman bmd trw com actually it was the fact that both situations existed that prompted us and allied action if some back water country took over some other back water country we probably wouldn t intervene not that we don t care but we can t be the world s policman or if a coup had occured in kuwait instead of an invasion then we still wouldn t have acted because there would not have been the imminent danger perceived to saudi arabia but the combination of the two an unprovoked invasion by a genocidal tyrant and the potential danger to the west s oil interests caused us to take action there are many indications that would have taken place had saddam been wanting or planning on going into saudi arabia there were none this has been openly stated by ex pentagon analysts pull from jbrown batman bmd trw com i m not setting up a strawman at all if you want to argue against the war then the only logical alternative was to allow hussein to keep kuwait diplomatic alternatives including sanctions were ineffective actually reports from other mid east countries showed that hussein was ready to make concessions due to the sanctions we just didn t want him to we wanted to crush him as well as battle test all these high tech toys we ve built over the years from jbrown batman bmd trw com probably because we re not the saviors of the world we can t police each and every country that decides to self destruct or invade another nor are we in a strategic position to get relief to tibet east timor or some other places we re also hypocrites of the first magnitude obviously we don t give a shit about freedom and democracy all we care about is our oil oh and the excuse now that the soviets are gone from the board to keep a sizable military presence in the gulf region care to make bets about when all our troops will come home basically saddam was ok with us he was a killer who tortured his own people used gas on them and other horrors he was a brutal dictator but he was our brutal dictator once he said fuck you to the us he became the next hitler the same for noriega he was a bastard but he was our bastard until he changed his mind and went his own way then we had to get rid of him david hunt graduate slave my mind is my own towards both a mechanical engineering so are my ideas opinions palestinian and carnegie mellon university use golden rule v jewish homeland t h e r e i s n o g o d t h e r e i s n o g o d email bluelobster cmu edu working towards my piled higher and deeper it will be a great day when scientists and engineers have all the r d money they need and religions have to beg for money to pay the priest
alt.atheism	re societally acceptable behavior in article c s tv h news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes in qvh tinnsg citation ksu ksu edu yohan citation ksu ksu edu jonathan w newton writes in article c qgm dl news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes merely a question for the basis of morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior i disagree with these what society thinks should be irrelevant what the individual decides is all that is important this doesn t seem right if i want to kill you i can because that is what i decide exactly although this may be a dissapointing answer there has to be an interplay of the two personal ethos and societal morality a person s self generated learned set of beliefs are usually expressed on a purely mental verbal level and don t usually find expression in society except in an impure not in the sense of bad state sometimes this has to be so who is society i think this is fairly obvious not really if whatever a particular society mandates as ok is ok there are always some in the society who disagree with the mandates so which societal mandates make the standard for morality also what if one feels oneself to be part of more than one society in a very real sense to use the obvious example there is a political society and a racial society and a gender society and sometimes they do not always agree on every issue how do they define what is acceptable generally by what they feel is right which is the most idiotic policy i can think of so what should be the basis unfortunately i have to admit to being tied at least loosely to the feeling in that i think we intuitively know some things to be wrong awfully hard to defend though yes perhaps with an infamous do what you want so long as it doesn t hurt others the problem with this is that it is merely saying what you can do it is not a morality in that it doesn t propound any specifically preferred behaviours how do we keep from a whatever is legal is what is moral position by thinking for ourselves i might agree here just because certain actions are legal does not make them moral i ll add a hearty me two however one could just as well say just because certain actions are moral does not make them legal one still doesn t really get an impression of which one is truly right mac michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts we ll still have billion dollar deficits michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody can explain everything to anybody g k chesterton best regards adam john cooper verily often have i laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had no claws
alt.atheism	re societally acceptable behavior in article c sa s news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes i guess i m delving into a religious language area what exactly is morality or morals i hope there is not one with a subject like this you just have a spiral what would then be a morality of a morality of morals labels don t make arguments one really needs a solid measuring stick by which most actions can be interpreted even though this would hardly seem moral for example the best thing for me is to ensure that i will eat and drink enough hence all actions must be weighed against this one statement whatever helps this goal is moral whatever does not is immoral of course this leads such a blank space there are so many different ways to fulfill a goal one would need a hyper morality to apply to just the methods i never thought of eating meat to be moral or immoral but i think it could be how do we differentiate between not doing something because it is a personal choice or preference and not doing something because we see it as immoral do we fall to what the basis of these morals are seems to me we only consider something moral or immoral if we stop to think about it long enough on the other hand maybe it is our first gut reaction which who knows perhaps here we have a way to discriminate morals i don t instinctively thing vegetarianism is right the same way i instinctively feel torture is wrong but if i thought about it long enough and listened to the arguments i could perhaps reason that it was wrong is that possible see the difference also consensus positions fall to a might makes right or as you brought out if whatever is right is what is societally mandated then whoever is in control at the time makes what is right mc mac michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody can explain everything to anybody g k chesterton best regards adam adam john cooper verily often have i laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had no claws
alt.atheism	re societal basis for morality in article c sad dm news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes in apr cnsvax uwec edu nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye writes reply to cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb if morals come from what is societally accepted why follow that what right do we have to expect others to follow our notion of societally mandated morality pardon the extremism but couldn t i murder your brother and say that i was exercising my rights as i saw them was doing what felt good didn t want anyone forcing their morality on me or i don t follow your morality i believe that morality is subjective each person is entitled to his own moral attitudes mine are not a priori more correct than someone elses this does not mean however that i must judge another on the basis of his rather than my moral standards while he is entitled to believe what his own moral sense tells him the rest of society is entitled to pass laws spelling out punishments for behavior that is offensive to the majority why how might makes right how can they force their morality on me why can t i do what i want who are they to decide what if i disagree well i agree with you in the sense that they have no moral right to inflict these rules but there is one thing i might add at the very least almost everybody wants to avoid pain and if that means sacrificing some stuff for a herd morality then so be it most criminals do not see their behavior as moral the may realize that it is immoral and not care they are thus not following their own moral system but being immoral good point but it is being immoral in our opinion we don t let them choose we make the decision that their actions are wrong for them right and since they grew up and learned around us they have some idea of our right and wrong which i think must in part be incorporated very rarely do you see criminal behaviour for philosophical reasons for someone to lay claim to an alternative moral system he must be sincere in his belief in it and it must be internally consistent some sociopaths lack an innate moral sense i admit to lean toward the idea of an innate moral sense but have little basis for it as of yet how far can such a concept be extended stuff deleted do you mean that we could say it would be wrong for us to do such a thing but not him after all he was behaving morally in his own eyes and doing what he chose on what basis do we condemn other societies besides here s the buzz words on the idea that there are some actions wrong for all humans in all societies holding that morality is subjective does not mean that we must excuse the murderer why not do we have to be objective suddenly david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell mac michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody can explain everything to anybody g k chesterton best regards adam adam john cooper verily often have i laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had no claws
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell in article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes you should wear your nicest boxer shorts and bring plenty of spf sunscreen i ll grab my bathing suit towerl and some veggie hotdogs and we can have bonfire cookout does that sound good enough to you dean every a a poster is invited is there room for nudists after all if you believe most upstanding moral churches nudity is a sin my sole intention was learning to fly
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article minster york ac uk cjhs minster york ac uk writes are you saying that their was a physical adam and eve and that all humans are direct decendents of only these two human beings then who were cain and able s wives couldn t be their sisters because a e didn t have daughters were they non humans genesis and the days of adam after he begat seth were eight hundred years and he begat sons and daughters felicitations chris ho stuart it is still incestuous adam what happened to my sig cooper
alt.atheism	test ignore test adam john cooper verily often have i laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had no claws understand one another i fear i am beyond your comprehension gandalf
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and anarchists in article timmbake mcl timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes mccullou whipple cs wisc edu writes the line about atheists haveing something up their sleeves is what seemed to imply that sorry been reading too much on the clipper project lately and the paranoia over there may have seeped in some what is the clipper project btw the clipper initiative is an announcement by clinton that all the secure voice phones will use the same crypto chip as a de facto government standard problem is the government is admitting that they hold the keys to break the code easily and the justice department will be using the keys to listen in on illegal activities many people are really scared about such an initiative because it is a major step towards outlawing real crypto protection on things like email if you read the press release the project was developed by nsa and given to nist it uses two keys s and s that the government claims are needed to break the code they claim that these keys will be handed to two different companies and when they get a warrant to do a wiretap the chip is nicknamed the wiretap chip they have to get the keys from both companies people have poked holes through and through the press release official version and shown how it is nowhere near as nice as it sounds and i have given the simplified version people over on sci crypt are really scared about this proposal it seems mccullou whipple cs wisc edu never program and drink beer at the same m time it doesn t work
alt.atheism	re the pope is jewish date tue apr gmt from r bruce rakes bruce cortex dixie com mcgoy unicorn acs ttu edu david mcgaughey writes i always thought that the pope was a bear you know because of that little saying does a bear shit in the woods is the pope catholic there must be some connection between those two lines and i always heard it is the bear catholic does the pope oh nevermind r bruce rakes software systems manager elekta instruments inc executive park w suite atlanta ga voice fax email bruce elekta com anyone from alabama knows it should be is the bear catholic does a pope shit in the woods the pope may not be a bear but the bear is a god paul bear bryant football coach god university of alabama
alt.atheism	re faith and dogma tgk cs toronto edu todd kelley writes in light of what happened in waco i need to get something of my chest faith and dogma are dangerous religion inherently encourages the implementation of faith and dogma and for that reason i scorn religion i don t necessarily disagree with your assertion but i disagree with your reasoning faith bad dogma bad religion faith dogma religion bad bad religion bad unfortunately you never state why faith and dogma are dangerous if you believe faith and dogma are dangerous because of what happened in waco you are missing the point the branch davidians made the mistake of confusing the message with the messenger they believed koresh was a prophet and therefore believed everything he said the problem wasn t the religion it was the followers they didn t die because of faith and dogma they died because of their zealotry or in the case of the children the zealotry of their parents i have expressed this notion in the past some christians debated with me whether christianity leaves any room for reasoning i claimed rationality is quelled out of christianity by faith and dogma so christians are totally irrational irrational with respect to their religion only what are you saying one s belief in a christian god does not make one totally irrational i think i know what you were getting at but i d rather hear you expand on the subject a philosopher cannot be a christian because a philosopher can change his mind whereas a christian cannot due to the nature of faith and dogma present in any religion again this statement is too general a christian is perfectly capable of being a philosopher and absolutely capable of changing his her mind faith in god is a belief and all beliefs may change would you assert that atheists would make poor philosophers because they are predisposed to not believe in a god which of course may show unfair bias when studying say religion i claimed that a christian philosopher is not a christian but is a person whose beliefs at the moment correspond with those of christianity consider that a person visiting or guarding a prison is not a prisoner unless you define a prisoner simply to be someone in a prison can we define a prisoner to be someone who at the moment is in a prison can we define a christian to be someone who at the moment has christian beliefs no because if a person is free to go he is not a prisoner similarly if a person is not constrained by faith and dogma he is not a christian so christianity is a prison eh ever heard of parole you have read far too much into this subject a christian is one who follows the religion based on the teachings of a man named jesus christ nowhere does this definition imply that one cannot change one s mind in prison however you can t just decide to leave one is voluntary the other is not the two are not compatible religion is like the gun that doesn t kill anybody religion encourages faith and dogma and although it doesn t directly condemn people it encourages the use of just because thinking it is just because thinking that kills people i prefer to think of religion as a water pistol filled with urine seriously though some but certainly not all religions do condemn groups of people the common target is the infidel a curious being who is alternately an atheist a non insert specific religious affiliation here a person of a different race or an egyptian please explain how just because thinking kills people and please state more in your answer than waco of course not all humans are capable of thought and we d still have genocide and maybe even some mass suicide but not as much i m willing to bet on that i ll see your conscientious peacenik and raise you a religious zealot with bad acne by the way i wasn t aware mass suicide was a problem waco and jonestown were isolated incidents mass suicides are far from common kevin marshall computer science department virginia tech marshall csugrad cs vt edu blacksburg virginia
alt.atheism	church o satan was re islamic authority sic over women david rice ofa fidonet org writes who marshall csugrad cs vt edu kevin marshall what q kc dj csugrad cs vt edu km yeah hilarious satanists believe satan is a god but not km the only god satan is a part of christian mythology km therefore one cannot reasonably worship satan without km acknowledging the existence of a christian god satanists km see satan as their master and they see god and satan as km adversaries of similar power satanists believe in the km eventual overthrow of god and a transfer of all power to km their master kevin marshall a great many satanists do not believe in satan some do some don t i d go so far as to assert that most orthodox satanists do not worship satan church of satan etc but rather worship self to hear lavey say it only idiots and fools believe in satan and or allah he knew that suckers are born every minute maximus wb anton lavey s interpretation of satanism has always puzzled me i read his satanic bible a few years ago for a social studies project as well as a book by arthur lyons called the cult of devil worship in america the latter included a very interesting interview with the black pope in which he did indeed say that satan was merely an instrument for one to realize the self when i refer to satanism i am referring to the mishmash of rural satanic ritualism and witchcraft which existed before the church of satan i don t consider lavey s church to be at all orthodox nor do i consider its followers satanists lavey combined the philosophies of nietzsche crowley and reich slapped in some religious doctrine added a little touch of p t barnum and christened his creation the church of satan no doubt the title was a calculated attempt to attract attention i suppose he could have just as easily called it the church of free sex at any rate it worked for a while in its heyday the church had a huge following including such hollywood celebrities as sammy davis jr and jayne mansfield i have a picture of lavey with sammy by the way i find the idea of a satanist not believing in satan about as credible as a christian not believing in christ but if you include the church of satan then i suppose i need to alter my definition webster s dictionary and the american heritage dictionary will have to do the same kevin marshall computer science department virginia tech marshall csugrad cs vt edu blacksburg virginia
alt.atheism	re who has read rushdie s the satanic verses in article edm apr gocart twisto compaq com edm twisto compaq com ed mccreary writes while we re on the topic of books has anyone else noticed that paine s the age of reason is hard to find i ve been wanting to pick up a copy for a while but not bad enough to mail order it i ve noticed though that none of the bookstores i go to seem to carry it i thought this was supposed to be classic what s the deal me too our local used book store is the second largest on the west coast and i couldn t find a copy there i guess atheists hold their bibles in as much esteem as the theists bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re islamic genocide in article qu o horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article qkovl k fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes false dichotomy you claimed the killing were not religiously motivated and i m saying that s wrong i m not saying that each and every killing is religiously motivate as i spelled out in detail which killings do you say are religously motivated for example i would claim that the recent assassination of four catholic construction workers who had no connection with the ira was probably religously motivated at the time of writing i think that someone who claims the current violence is motivated by religion is reaching what would you call is when someone writes the killings in n i are not religously motivated now it s possible to argue that religion in the past is a major contributing factor to the violence in the present but i don t know of any evidence that this is so and i m not enough of a historian to debate it given that the avowed aim of the ira is to take northern ireland into a country that has a particular church written into its constitution and which has restriction on civil rights dictated by that church i fail to see why the word past is appropriate but to claim that the killings in n i are not religously motivated is grotesque all that means is that the church and believers are doing what they always do with history they can t face they rewrite it you re attacking a different claim my claim is that when an ira terrorist plants a bomb in warrington s he does not have as a motive the greater glory of god sorry frank but what i put in quotes is your own words from your posting qi b ec horus ap mchp sni de don t tell us now that it s a different claim if you can no longer stand behind your original claim just say so i mean the same thing when i say the killings in n i are not religously motivated as i do when i say when a terrorist plants a bomb s he doesn t have a religious motive the example is meant to clarify not to be a new claim the different claim to which i refer is the claim which you were seemingly attacking in the previous post namely that religion is not a major historical cause of the present violence i don t assert that nor do i assert its opposite you don t have to hand us a bunch of double talk about what i was seemingly attacking i quoted what i was attacking jon
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes in qi jkj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes my understanding is that uk blasphemy laws yes they exist in the uk although they are little used apply only to anglican christianity how does this fit in with your claim that there is no state religion in the uk why don t you ask the approx two million british muslims who break it five times a day and have never ever been prosecuted under it then ask how easy it is to hold a christian church service in saudi arabia jon
alt.atheism	re who has read rushdie s the satanic verses in article r cl innknk bozo dsinc com perry dsinc com jim perry writes anyway since i seem to be the only one following this particular line of discussion i wonder how many of the rest of the readership have read this book what are your thoughts on it i read it when it first came out and the controversy broke put my name on the waiting list at the library that way if the book was really offensive none of my money would find its way to the author or publisher and read it cover to cover to use a phrase that seems popular here right now and i liked it the writing style was a little hard to get used to but it was well worth the effort coming from a similar background rushdie grew up in bombay in a muslim family and moved to england i grew up in new delhi it made a strong impression on me and he used many of the strange constructions of indian english the yaar at the end of a sentence butbutbut the occasional hindi phrase etc at the time i still sorta kinda thought of myself as a muslim and i couldn t see what the flap was all about it seemed clear to me that this was allegory it was clear that he described some local prostitutes who took on the names and personae of muhammed s wives and had not as my grandfather thundered implied that muhammed s wives were prostitutes in short every angry muslim that had read even part of the book seemed to have missed the point completely and i won t mention the fact that the most militant of them had never even seen the book oops i just did perhaps in a deep sense the book is insulting to islam because it exposes the silliness of revealed religion why does an omnipotent deity need an agent she can come directly to me can t she how do we know that muhammed didn t just go out into the desert and smoke something and how do we know that the scribes he dictated the quran to didn t screw up or put in their own little verses and why can muhammed marry more than four women when no other muslim is allowed to although i think the biggest insult to islam is that the majority of its followers would want to suppress a book sight unseen on the say so of some holy guy not to mention murder the author over the years when i have made this point various primarily muslim posters have responded saying that yes indeed they have read the book and had called it such things as filth and lies i would rank rushdie s book with hitler s mein kempf or worse and so on i had much the same response when i tried to talk about the book a really silly argument after all how many of these same people have read mein kampf it just made me wonder what are they afraid of why don t they just read the book and decide for themselves maybe the reaction of the muslim community to the book and the absence of protest from the liberal muslims to khomeini s fatwa outrage was the final push i needed into atheism s shamim mohamed uunet noao cmcl arizona shamim shamim cs arizona edu take this cross and garlic here s a mezuzah if he s jewish a page of the koran if he s a muslim and if he s a zen buddhist you re on your own member of the league for programming freedom write to lpf uunet uu net
alt.atheism	re the universe and black holes was re years in article apr iastate edu kv iastate edu warren vonroeschlaub wrote let s say that we drop a marble into the black hole it races ever faster towards the even horizon but thanks to the curving of space caused by the excessive gravity as the object approaches the event horizon it has further to travel integrating the curve gives a time to reach the event horizon of infinity so the math says that nothing can enter a black hole not true only an observer at rest at infinite distance from the black hole will see the particle take infinite time to reach the horizon in the particle s own reference frame it takes a very finite time to reach the horizon and the singularity the math does indeed predict this take a look at mitchner thorne and wheeler s gravitation peter walker don t forget to sing they say there s a heaven for those who will wait some say it s better but i say it ain t i d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints the sinners are much more fun only the good die young
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes in article qla g afp fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes i hope an islamic bank is something other than bcci which ripped off so many small depositors among the muslim community in the uk and elsewhere grow up childish propagandist bbci was an example of an islamically owned and operated bank what will someone bet me they weren t real islamic owners and operators an islamic bank is a bank which operates according to the rules of islam in regard to banking this is done explicitly by the bank this was not the case with bcci so now you are saying that an islamic bank is something other than bcci would you care to explain why it was that when i said i hope an islamic bank is something other than bcci you called me a childish propagandist jon
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes the difference as i understand it is that when one invests one shares in the risk of the venture whereas when a bank lends money while charging interest the bank takes little risk the entire business of a bank is the management of risk that s what a bank is for that s what people who work for banks do something like that anyway financial stuff ain t my thing ok but in that case why are you posting about it what i hear you saying is i don t understand this stuff but if islam says it s so it s so jon
alt.atheism	re cruel was re political atheists in article qnpe inn b gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes they spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the constitution i realise that this is widely held belief in america but in fact the clause on cruel and unusual punishments like a lot of the rest was lifted from the english bill of rights of just because the wording is elsewhere does not mean they didn t spend much time on the wording in the part of the posting you have so helpfully deleted i pointed out that they used the wording from the english bill of rights apparently changing what they understood by it and i asked why then should we two hundred years later be bound by what keith allan schneider thinks they understood by it we have already looked in the dictionary to define the word isn t this sufficient since the dictionary said that a lack of mercy or an intent to inflict injury or grief counted as cruel sure people can be described as cruel in this way but punishments cannot so one cannot say a cruel fate your prevarications are getting increasingly unconvincing i think jon
alt.atheism	re cruel was re political atheists in article apr bmerh bnr ca dgraham bmers bnr ca douglas graham writes in article qnedm a fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article ql mdinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes they spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the constitution i realise that this is widely held belief in america but in fact the clause on cruel and unusual punishments like a lot of the rest was lifted from the english bill of rights of according to jerry mander s in the absence of the sacred good book btw the great binding law of the iroquois confederacy also played a significant role as a model for the u s constitution furthermore apparently marx and engels were strongly influenced by a study of iroquois society using it as the prime example of a successful classless egalitarian noncoercive society mander goes on to say that both the u s and the u s s r would do well to study the original document figure out where each went wrong and try to get it right next time that s fascinating i heard that the chinese rather than the italians invented pasta jon
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article qnp inn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes perhaps the chimps that failed to evolve cooperative behaviour died out and we are left with the ones that did evolve such behaviour entirely by chance that s the entire point no that s the point of evolution not the point of natural morality unless of course as i have suggested several times already natural morality is just a renaming are you going to proclaim a natural morality every time an organism evolves cooperative behaviour yes natural morality is a morality that developed naturally but your yes is actually stronger than this you are agreeing that every time an organism evolves cooperative behaviour you are going to call it a natural morality what about the natural morality of bee dance huh bee dance is a naturally developed piece of cooperative behaviour jon
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article apr daffy cs wisc edu mccullou snake cs wisc edu mark mccullough writes in article ql a afp fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article ql ajinn kj gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes well chimps must have some system they live in social groups as we do so they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior ah the verb to must i was warned about that one back in kindergarten so why must they have such laws jon hey must is a verb in some languages just happens it is only a modifier in english but the verb of the sentence is to have this is modified by must i know that must is a verb in some languages i m complaining about the assertion containing the word must jon
alt.atheism	re a little too satanic in article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes jon livesey writes what i said was that people took time to copy the text correctly translations present completely different issues so why do i read in the papers that the qumram texts had different versions of some ot texts did i misunderstand reading newspapers to learn about this kind of stuff is not the best idea in the world newspaper reporters are notoriously ignorant on the subject of religion and are prone to exaggeration in the interests of having a real story that is a bigger headline let s back up to at this point we have the masoretic text the various targums translations commentaries in aramaic etc and the septuagint the ancient greek translation the masoretic text is the standard jewish text and essentially does not vary in some places it has obvious corruptions all of which are copied faithfully from copy to copy these passages in the past were interpreted by reference to the targums and to the septuagint so when they took the time to copy the text correctly that includes obvious corruptions now the septuagint differs from the masoretic text in two particulars first it includes additional texts and second in some passages there are variant readings from the masoretic text in addition to fixing predating the various corrupted passages it must be emphasized that to the best of my knowledge these variations are only signifcant to bible scholars and have little theological import so when they took the time to copy the text correctly that does not exclude variant readings from the masoretic text which are of little theological import the dead sea scroll materials add to this an ancient copy of almost all of isaiah and fragments of various sizes of almost all other ot books there is also an abundance of other material but as far as i know there is no sign there of any hebrew antecdent to the apocrypha the extra texts in the septuagint as far as analysis has proceeded there are also variations between the dss texts and the masoretic versions these tend to reflect the septuagint where the latter isn t obviously in error again though the differences thus far are not significant theologically there is this big expectation that there are great theological surprises lurking in the material but so far this hasn t happened the dss are important because there is almost no textual tradition in the ot unlike for the nt hey you re the expert jon
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics in article ofp qp vpdinppwh andrew cmu edu nanci ann miller nm w andrew cmu edu writes timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes there lies the hypocrisy dude atheism takes as much faith as theism admit it besides not believing in a god means one doesn t have to deal with all of the extra baggage that comes with it this leaves a person feeling wonderfully free especially after beaten over the head with it for years i agree that religion and belief is often an important psychological healer for many people and for that reason i think it s important however trying to force a psychological fantasy i don t mean that in a bad way but that s what it really is on someone else who isn t interested is extremely rude what if i still believed in santa claus and said that my it should be noted that belief in god is in itself no more a behavoral imperative than lack of belief it is religion which causes the harm not the belief in god dan
alt.atheism	re faith and dogma in article r mr eov aurora engr latech edu ray engr latech edu bill ray writes todd kelley tgk cs toronto edu wrote faith and dogma are dangerous faith and dogma are inevitable christians merely understand and admit to the fact give me your proof that no god exists or that he does whichever position you take you are forced to do it on faith it does no good to say you take no position for to show no interest in the existence of god is to assume he does not exist stuff deleted as many posters have said in as many posts lately this is just not true for to show no interest in the existence of god takes no faith at all you make the presumption that the knowledge of the possibility of something is enough to require faith to render that possibilty of no interest it is a very different thing to say that you don t believe something than it is to say that you don t have sufficent reason to believe something is even interesting to think about it s not either or sometimes is just something else more interesting that occupies your mind i agree that faith and dogma are inevitable but not necessarily applied to god and religion it takes both faith and dogma to expect the sun to come up every morning but there is overwhelming reason every single day day in and day out for everyone to put his faith and dogma there not so with the christian religion jim halat halat bear com bear stearns whatever doesn t kill you will only serve to annoy you nyc i speak only for myself
alt.atheism	re christian morality is in article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com dan schaertel wrote in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes yet i am still not a believer is god not concerned with my disposition why is it beneath him to provide me with the evidence i would require to believe the evidence that my personality given to me by this god would find compelling the fact is god could cause you to believe anything he wants you to but think about it for a minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you or because they wanted to love you i wouldn t punish him with eternal torture if he didn t love me but then i m a decent chap it seems your god isn t the responsibility is on you to love god and take a step toward him he promises to be there for you but you have to look for yourself i ve looked and he wasn t another promise broken those who doubt this or dispute it have not givin it a sincere effort lying bastard how do you know what effort i have and have not given simple logic arguments are folly if you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools of those who tried to trick him with logic our ability to reason is just a spec of creation yet some think it is the ultimate if you rely simply on your reason then you will never know more than you do now to learn you must accept that which you don t know can anyone eaplain what he s just said here peter don t forget to sing they say there s a heaven for those who will wait some say it s better but i say it ain t i d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints the sinners are much more fun only the good die young
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell in article c s zm e cbnewsj cb att com decay cbnewsj cb att com dean kaflowitz wrote in article c lh p k portal hq videocart com dfuller portal hq videocart com dave fuller writes jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all go to hell for not believing in god be prepared for your eternal damnation what do you mean be prepared surrounded by thumpers like yourself has proven to be hellish enough and i m not even dead yet well here s how i prepared i got one of those big beach umbrellas some of those gel pack ice things a big coleman cooler which i ve loaded up with miller draft so i like miller draft so sue me a new pair of new balance sneakers a sony watchman and a couple of cartons of bonton cheddar cheese popcorn i haven t decided what to wear yet what does one wear to an eternal damnation dean kaflowitz dress casual only in heaven is there a dress code black tie and self important expression don t forget to sing they say there s a heaven for those who will wait some say it s better but i say it ain t i d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints the sinners are much more fun only the good die young
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes in qi fc jkj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes some here on alt atheism think that by condemning the actions of some of those who call themselves muslims they are condemning islam do you read minds mr rice you know what posters think now not just what they write for myself i only have what people are posting here to go on and that s what i am commenting on i think you may have misunderstood me i mean that one does not really criticize islam necessarily by bringing khomeini etc into the argument for whether he is or is not following islam has to be determined by examining his actions against islamic teachings islamic teachings are contained in the qur an and hadiths reported sayings and doings of the prophet that s funny i thought you were making a statement about what people think in fact i see it quoted up there jon
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes by the way jon i found a reference to my claim that the percentage of the population that suffers from depression has been increasing this century as you requested i will start a new heading thread to post it under cool then we can discuss the increase in radio and tv use the increase in the use of fossil fuels the increase in air travel and consumption of processed bread and you can instruct us on which of them causes increased depression jon
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism in article qugin tf horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article qkogg k fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes and in that area what you care about is whether someone is sceptical critical and autonomous on the one hand or gullible excitable and easily led on the other indeed i may and one may be an atheist and also be gullible excitable and easily led i would say that a tendency to worship tyrants and ideologies indicates that a person is easily led whether they have a worship or belief in a supernatural hero rather than an earthly one seems to me to be beside the point sure but whether or not they are atheists is what we are discussing not whether they are easily led not if you show that these hypothetical atheists are gullible excitable and easily led from some concrete cause in that case we would also have to discuss if that concrete cause rather than atheism was the factor that caused their subsequent behaviour jon
alt.atheism	re faith and dogma marshall csugrad cs vt edu kevin marshall r eba hsq csugrad cs vt edu wrote i don t necessarily disagree with your assertion but i disagree with your reasoning faith bad dogma bad religion faith dogma religion bad bad religion bad unfortunately you never state why faith and dogma are dangerous faith and dogma are dangerous because they cause people to act on faith alone which by its nature is without justification that is what i mean by the word faith belief without justification or belief with arbitrary justification or with emotional irrational justification for example when someone says that god exists that they don t know why they believe god exists they can just feel it that s faith dogma is bad because it precludes positive change in belief based on new information or increased mental faculty so christians are totally irrational irrational with respect to their religion only what are you saying one s belief in a christian god does not make one totally irrational i think i know what you were getting at but i d rather hear you expand on the subject faith and dogma are irrational the faith and dogma part of any religion are responsible for the irrationality of the individuals i claim that faith and dogma are the quintessential part of any religion if that makes the much overused in this context buddism a philosophy rather than a religion i can live with that science is not a religion because there is no faith nor dogma a philosopher cannot be a christian because a philosopher can change his mind whereas a christian cannot due to the nature of faith and dogma present in any religion again this statement is too general a christian is perfectly capable of being a philosopher and absolutely capable of changing his her mind faith in god is a belief and all beliefs may change would you assert that atheists would make poor philosophers because they are predisposed to not believe in a god which of course may show unfair bias when studying say religion have you noticed that philosophers tend to be atheists if a philosopher is not an atheist s he tends to be called a theologian a christian tends to consider christianity sacred christianity is a special set of beliefs sanctioned by god himself and therefore to conceive of changing those beliefs is to question the existence of that being who makes no mistakes faith comes into play dogma comes into play the lord works in mysterious ways is an example of faith being used to reconcile evidence that the beliefs are flawed sure interpretations of what god said are changed to satisfy the needs of society but when god says something that s it it was said and that s that since god said it it is unflawed even if the interpretations are flawed science as would be practiced by atheists in contrast has a built in defence against faith and dogma a scientist holds sacred the idea that beliefs should change to suit whatever is the best information available at the time and and and a scientist understands that any current beliefs are deficient in some way the goal is to keep improving the beliefs the goal is to keep changing the beliefs to reflect the best information currently available that s the only rational thing to do that s good philosophy can you see the difference science views beliefs as being flawed and new information can be obtained to improve them how many scientists would claim to have complete and perfect understanding of everything none it would put them out of a job religion views its beliefs as being perfect and the interpretations of those beliefs must be changed as new information is acquired which conflicts with them please explain how just because thinking kills people and please state more in your answer than waco it s easier for someone to kill a person when s he doesn t require a good rational justification of the killing i don t consider he s jewish or he was born of jewish parents or this document says he s jewish to be good rational justification by the way i wasn t aware mass suicide was a problem waco and jonestown were isolated incidents mass suicides are far from common clinton and the fbi would love for you to convince them of this it would save the us taxpayer a lot of money if you could todd
alt.atheism	re faith and dogma in r mr eov aurora engr latech edu ray engr latech edu bill ray wrote faith and dogma are inevitable christians merely understand and admit to the fact give me your proof that no god exists or that he does whichever position you take you are forced to do it on faith it does no good to say you take no position for to show no interest in the existence of god is to assume he does not exist consider special relativity it hasn t be proved nor has it been disproved no one has a proof one way or the other but many people are interested in it i ve satisfied myself that nothing could indicate absolutely the existence of god one way or the other the two possibilities are supernaturalism and naturalism of course no set of circumstances can be inconsistent with supernaturalism but similarly no set of circumstances can be inconsistent with naturalism in naturalism any phenomenon that could be described as god is considered part of the natural world to be studied as any other natural phenomenon gravity for instance for example if a loud godlike voice vociferously announced i am god i exist and i will prove it by reversing the force of gravity and if then gravity did indeed reverse a naturalist probably a scientist would say boy we sure didn t understand gravity as well as we thought we did and that loud voice is something new perhaps we didn t understand thunder as well as we thought we did either i contend that proper implementation of the christian faith requires reasoning but that reasoning cannot be used to throw out things you don t like or find uncomfortable hedonistic sexual behavior is condemned in the bible and no act of true reason will make it any less condemned hatred murder gossip all these are condemned is there god ordained murder in the bible you bet and if god ever orders me to kill you i will but i will first use the gideon like behavior of verifying that god actually ordered the hit and will probably discuss it in an abram like fashion i m sure glad you don t know where i live since you don t seem to realize it is impossible for you to distinguish between voices in your head and god s voice i can hear you now this is how jim jones and david koresh justify their behavior delusional religious cults bear the same relationship to christianity that rape bears to consentual sex form but no substance when the southern baptist church or the methodist church begin to do this then you have reason to blame mainstream religion for the behaviors of these people or should i associate every negative behavior i witness in any non christian with you you seem to have missed my point even if jim jones and david koresh were not religious people my point remains that faith and dogma are dangerous and religion encourages them jim jones and david koresh also encouraged them my point does not rely on jim jones and david koresh being religious todd
alt.atheism	re faith and dogma in article r mr eov aurora engr latech edu ray engr latech edu bill ray writes todd kelley tgk cs toronto edu wrote faith and dogma are dangerous faith and dogma are inevitable christians merely understand and admit to the fact give me your proof that no god exists or that he does whichever position you take you are forced to do it on faith it does no good to say you take no position for to show no interest in the existence of god is to assume he does not exist absolutely not true without religion either an established one or one you invent for yourself the theist and atheist are equally not interested in god because without religious revelation there is no information about god available strip away the dogma and the theists atheists are no different simply holding a different opinion on a matter of little practical importance i contend that proper implementation of the christian faith requires reasoning but that reasoning cannot be used to throw out things you don t like or find uncomfortable hedonistic sexual behavior is condemned in the bible and no act of true reason will make it any less condemned hatred murder gossip all these are condemned is there god ordained murder in the bible you bet and if god ever orders me to kill you i will but i will first use the gideon like behavior of verifying that god actually ordered the hit and will probably discuss it in an abram like fashion sorry but that doesn t help what test will you apply to decide whether it is god or satan with whom you are speaking how will you know that you have not simply gone insane or having delusions you are like a loaded gun i can hear you now this is how jim jones and david koresh justify their behavior delusional religious cults bear the same relationship ah you not as stupid as i assumed when the southern baptist church or the methodist church begin to do this then you have reason to blame mainstream religion for the behaviors of these people or should i associate every negative behavior i witness in any non christian with you yes we re all in this together each human making up a small part of the definition of humanity dan
alt.atheism	re thoughts on christians in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine wrote in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes as i know you can t get any physical problems by passive christianity unlike smoking it s not that hard to avoid christianity today anyway just ignore em right on keith err kent whadda you mean you didn t see the smiley ouch i guess i didn t sorry but my comment was just more irony into the fire cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re who has read rushdie s the satanic verses in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine wrote in article edm apr gocart twisto compaq com edm twisto compaq com ed mccreary writes while we re on the topic of books has anyone else noticed that paine s the age of reason is hard to find i ve been wanting to pick up a copy for a while but not bad enough to mail order it i ve noticed though that none of the bookstores i go to seem to carry it i thought this was supposed to be classic what s the deal me too our local used book store is the second largest on the west coast and i couldn t find a copy there i guess atheists hold their bibles in as much esteem as the theists if i remember correctly prometheus books have this one in stock so just call them and ask for the book cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	age of reason was who has read rushdie s this is the story of kent the archetype finn that lives in the bay area and tried to purchase thomas paine s age of reason this man was driving around to staceys to books inc to well cleanlighted place to daltons to various other places when he asked for this book the well educated american book store assistants in most placed asked him to check out the thriller section or then they said that his book has not been published yet but they should receive the book soon in some places the assistants bluntly said that they don t know of such an author or that he is not a well known living author so they don t keep copies of his books such is the life and times of america years after the revolution cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article c rekj y darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes james felder spbach lerc nasa gov wrote logic alert argument from incredulity just because it is hard for you to believe this doesn t mean that it isn t true liars can be very pursuasive just look at koresh that you yourself cite this is whole basis of a great many here rejecting the christian account of things in the words of st madalyn murrey o hair face it folks it s just silly why is it okay to disbelieve because of your incredulity if you admit that it s a fallacy it isn t and i wasn t aware that this o hair chick was a reader of a a so that doesn t support your assertion that the argument is the whole basis of a great many here rejecting dan
alt.atheism	re thoughts on christians in article c rgkb fs darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com wrote the social pressure is indeed a very important factor for the majority of passive christians in our world today in the case of early christianity the promise of a heavenly afterlife independent of your social status was also a very promising gift reason slaves and non romans accepted the religion very rapidly if this is a hypothetical proposition you should say so if it s fact you should cite your sources if all this is the amateur sociologist sub branch of a a however it would suffice to alert the unwary that you are just screwing around what would you accept as sources this very thing has been written in lots of books you could start with erich fromm s the dogma of christ doug graham dgraham bnr ca my opinions are my own
alt.atheism	re cruel was re political atheists in article r j d e fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article apr bmerh bnr ca dgraham bmers bnr ca douglas graham writes according to jerry mander s in the absence of the sacred good book btw the great binding law of the iroquois confederacy also played a significant role as a model for the u s constitution furthermore apparently marx and engels were strongly influenced by a study of iroquois society using it as the prime example of a successful classless egalitarian noncoercive society mander goes on to say that both the u s and the u s s r would do well to study the original document figure out where each went wrong and try to get it right next time that s fascinating i heard that the chinese rather than the italians invented pasta that s fascinating i take it that you re expressing skepticism at the idea that those ignorant savages could have influenced the constitution of the people who stole their continent you could be right but it sounds plausible to me is there any reason that you dismiss it out of hand here s some more recent scholarship has shown that in the mid s indians were not only invited to participate in the deliberations of our founding fathers but that the great binding law of the iroquois confederacy arguably became the single most important model for the albany plan of union and later the articles of confederation and the constitution that this would be absent from our school texts and from history and from media is not surprising given the devotion americans feel to our founding myth great men gathered to express a new vision that has withstood the test of time if it were revealed that indians had a role in it imagine the blow to the american psyche by when most of these men and others gathered to creat the albany plan of union the first try at confederation they invited forty two members of the iroquois grand council to serve as advisors on confederate structures benjamin franklin freely acknowledged his interest in the iroquois achievement in a famous speech at albany congress it would be a strange thing if six nations of ignorant savages sic should be capable of forming such a union and be able to execute it in such a manner that it has subsisted for ages and appears indissoluble and yet that a like union should be impractical for ten or a dozen english colonies according to grinde franklin convened meetings of iroquois chiefs and congressional delegates in order to hammer out a plan that he acknowedged to be similar to the iroquois confederacy grinde is professor donald grinde jr of the university of california at riverside whose book the iroquois and the founding fathers of the american nation addresses this issue doug graham dgraham bnr ca my opinions are my own
alt.atheism	re studies on book of mormon date tue apr gmt from carolyn jean fairman cfairman leland stanford edu agrino enkidu mic cl andres grino brandt asks about mormons there are some mention about events places or historical persons later discovered by archeologist one of the more amusing things in the bom is a claim that a civilization existed in north america aroun where the mystical plates were found not only did it use steel and other metals but it had lots of wars very ot no one has ever found any metal swords or and traces of a civilization other than the native americans this is just one example from free inquiry winter the following is an introduction to the article joseph smith and the book of mormon by george d smith the introduction is written by paul kurtz mormonism the church of jesus christ of latter day saints claims a worldwide membership million it is one of the world s fastest growing religions with as many as new converst in alone because of the church s aggressive missionary program covering more than one hundred countries it is spreading even to third world countries mormonism is both puritanical in moral outlook and evangelical in preachment the church is run along strict authoritarian lines led by a president who allegedly receives revelations directly form god and a group of twelve apostles who attempt to maintain orthodoxy in belief and practice the church is opposed to abortion pornography sexual freedom women s rights and other in its view immoral influences of secular society and it forbids the use of tobacco alcohol coffee and tea centered in salt lake city the church is extremely wealthy and politically powerful in utal and many other western states among well know present day mormons are ezra taft benson former secretary of agriculture the osmond family the mariotts of the hotel empire and a score of high placed government officials the mormon church was founded in western new york in by joseph smith who claimed that by divine revelation be had found gold plates containing hieroglyphics buried on a hill and that with the help of visits from the angel moroni he had been able to translate the writing into the book of mormon the basis of mormon belief this book written by the commandment of god claims that the ancient hebrews settled in america about b c e and were the ancestors of the american indians mormons believe that those who have been baptized in the true church will be reunited after death and that deceased non mormon family members can be baptized by proxy and thus join their relatives in the hereafter because of these beliefs mormons have been considered outcasts by mainline christian denominations and as heretics by religious fundamentalists joseph smith was a controversial figure in his day he was both worshiped as a saint and denounced as a fraud because of persecution he led his band of loyal followers from palmyra new york westward to ohio and then to illinois where in he was shot to death by an agry mob brigham young who reportedly had as many as eighty wives took over the leadership of the church and led the mormons further westward to found the new zion in salt lake city following the teachings of joseph smith in the practice of polygamy was perhaps the mormons most controversial practice in nineteenth century america while other religions go back many centuries muhammadanism years christianity and judaism and attempts to examine their beginnings are difficult extensive historical investigation of mormon roots is possible some mormons are willing to examine this history objectively bu others maintain that such scrutiny is dangerous to the faith in the following pages free inquiry presents two articles about the mormon church first george d smith a lifelong member of the church provides a detailed critical examination of joseph smith and his claim the the book of mormon was divinely revealed second we present a portion of an interview with philosopher sterling mcmurrin also a mormon since birth who questions the treatment of the history of the church by mormon authorities paul kurtz the article itself is super c jimtims p psilink com
alt.atheism	re christian morality is in article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes simple logic arguments are folly if you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools of those who tried to trick him with logic why don t you cite the passages so that we can focus on some to discuss then following jesus you can make fools of us and our logic if you rely simply on your reason then you will never know more than you do now indeed if you can justifiably make this assertion you must be a genius in logic and making fools of us should be that much easier qpliu princeton edu standard opinion opinions are delta correlated
alt.atheism	logic of jesus dps nasa kodak com pontificated simple logic arguments are folly if you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools of those who tried to trick him with logic can you cite an example of this please post an answer as i don t want to receive e mail james t green jgreen oboe calpoly edu at all times and in all nations the priest has been hostile to liberty thomas jefferson
alt.atheism	re islamic authority over women kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan pontificated q how many moslem men does it take to rape a woman a five one to commit the act and four to witness the penetration a guilty verdict can be rendered only if there is a confession or if there are at least two male witnesses to the crime adultery and rape are proved only if four witnesses have seen the actual penetration an occurrence that presumably does not happen often is this from the quran or however it s spelled james t green jgreen oboe calpoly edu at all times and in all nations the priest has been hostile to liberty thomas jefferson
alt.atheism	re so help you god in court i ve heard that in california they ask you to swear without any mention of a god what states actually include god in the courtroom oath james t green jgreen oboe calpoly edu at all times and in all nations the priest has been hostile to liberty thomas jefferson
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article apr abo fi mandtbacka finabo abo fi mats andtbacka writes in r fpv p horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp writes in article apr abo fi mandtbacka finabo abo fi mats andtbacka writes ah that old chestnut your claim that moral objectivism scientific objectivism i don t agree with it now try proving through some objective moral test that my disagreeing is incorrect your claim which you have deleted now was not universal not objective i ve deleted it now in the interest of brevity go back a step and you ll see it was still in your post yes that was my claim if you can refute it then please do so firstly an apology you hadn t deleted your claim and i was mistaken in saying you had sorry for any offence caused secondly how can i refute your definition i can only point up its logical implications and say that they seem to contradict the usage of the word objective in other areas indeed by your definition an objective x is an oxymoron for all x i have no quibble with that belief other than that it is useless and that objective is a perfectly good word so what is objective not the age of the universe anyway as i show above how many ages can the universe have and still be internally self consistent i d be amazed if it was more than one how many different moral systems can different members of society have indeed single individuals in some cases and humanity still stick together begging the question people can have many opinions about the age of the universe and humanity can still stick together you are saying that the universe has a real age independent of my beliefs about it why the age of the universe like most scientific facts can be emirically verified through means that ll give the same result no matter who performs the testing albeit there are error bars that may be on the largish side this assumes that the universe has a real age or any kind of reality which doesn t depend on what we think why should an extreme biblical creationist give a rat s ass about the means of which you speak i ve heard of no way to verify morality in a consistent way much less compute the errors of the measurement care to enlighten me the same is true of pain but painkillers exist and can be predicted to work with some accuracy better than a random guess i wrote elsewhere that morality should be hypotheses about observed value if a moral system makes a prediction it will be better if that can be tested and is falsifiable in the same way as a prediction this drug will relieve pain people s ideas about the age of object x are not objective you can have any idea you like and i can t stop you universae and their ages is another ballgame they are what they are and if you dislike some detail of them that s a problem with your opinion of them sure assume an objective reality and you get statements like this i claim that morality is an opinion of ours and as such subjective and individual if i m wrong then some more or less objectively real thing exists which you label objective morality can you back up this positive claim of existence can you back up your positive claim above no that s because it s an assumption i make the same assumption about values on the basis that there is no logical difference between the two and the empirical basis of the two is precisely the same point morals are in essence personal opinions usually ideally well founded motivated such but nonetheless personal the fact that a real large lot of people agree on some moral question sometimes even for the same reason does not make morals objective it makes humans somewhat alike in their opinions on that moral question which can be good for the evolution of a social species and if a real large lot nice phrase of people agree that there is a football on a desk i m supposed to see a logical difference between the two perhaps you can explain the difference to me since you seem to see it so clearly take a look on the desk i e perform a test if football then accept theory else do tell people they re hallucinating now take a look at morality see anything if so please inform me which way to look and why to look that particular way as opposed to some other get my drift no just look are you claiming never to know what good means science is a whole other matter altogether says you prove that those who disagree are wrong that s a simple matter of proving the track record of the scientific method i think it s great and should be applied to values i may be completely wrong but that s what i conclude as a result of quite an amount of thought frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article c reyf ce darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com wrote in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine wrote someone spank me if i m wrong but didn t lord liar or lunatic originate with c s lewis who s this campollo fellow anyway i do think so and isn t there a clear connection with the i do believe because it is absurd notion by one of the original christians origen there is a similar statement attributed to anselm i believe so that i may understand in both cases reason is somewhat less exalted than anyone posting here could accept which means that neither statement can be properly analysed in this venue bill i think you have a misunderstanding about atheism lack of belief in god does not directly imply lack of understanding transcendental values i hope you would accept the fact that for instance buddhists appreciate issues related to non empirical reasoning without the need to automatically believe in theism i think reading a couple of books related to buddhism might revise and fine tune your understanding of non christian systems cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re christian morality is in article pww spac at rice edu pww spacsun rice edu peter simple logic arguments are folly if you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools of those who tried to trick him with logic our ability to reason is just a spec of creation yet some think it is the ultimate if you rely simply on your reason then you will never know more than you do now to learn you must accept that which you don t know can anyone eaplain what he s just said here i can t it seems jesus used logic to make people using logic look like fools no that does not sound right he maybe just told they were fools and that s it and people believed that hmm does not sound reasonable either i find it always very intriguing to see people stating that transcendental values can t be explained and then in the next sentence they try to explain these unexplained values highly strange cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re thoughts on christians in article c rgkb fs darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com wrote the social pressure is indeed a very important factor for the majority of passive christians in our world today in the case of early christianity the promise of a heavenly afterlife independent of your social status was also a very promising gift reason slaves and non romans accepted the religion very rapidly if this is a hypothetical proposition you should say so if it s fact you should cite your sources if all this is the amateur sociologist sub branch of a a however it would suffice to alert the unwary that you are just screwing around well as i remember jacoby s mythmaker talks about this to cite one source but i m not sure if all christians have read this book in addition my social experiences is from being raised and educated as a lutheran having a lot of christian friends and i even have played in two christian rock bands so over to you do you have any counter claims sources et rest that shows that christianity does not have the concept of a social promise that is independent on the social status cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re islamic authority over women in article c rb g u darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote to credit religion with the awesome power to dominate history is to misunderstand human nature the function of religion and of course history i believe that those who distort history in this way know exaclty what they re doing and do it only for affect however to underestimate the power of religion creating historical events is also a big misunderstanding for instance would the year old war have ever started if there were no fractions between the protestants and the vatican cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re death penalty was re political atheists in article c rlyz mt darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote this is fascinating atheists argue for abortion defend homosexuality as a means of population control insist that the only values are biological and condemn war and capital punishment according to benedikt if something is contardictory it cannot exist which in this case means atheists i suppose i would like to understand how an atheist can object to war an excellent means of controlling population growth or to capital punishment i m sorry but the logic escapes me and why just capital punishment what is being questioned here the propriety of killing or of punishment what is the basis of the ecomplaint bill ever heard of secular humanism please check out what this stands for and then revise your statements above cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism in article r kt e fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article qugin tf horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article qkogg k fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes and in that area what you care about is whether someone is sceptical critical and autonomous on the one hand or gullible excitable and easily led on the other indeed i may and one may be an atheist and also be gullible excitable and easily led i would say that a tendency to worship tyrants and ideologies indicates that a person is easily led whether they have a worship or belief in a supernatural hero rather than an earthly one seems to me to be beside the point sure but whether or not they are atheists is what we are discussing not whether they are easily led not if you show that these hypothetical atheists are gullible excitable and easily led from some concrete cause in that case we would also have to discuss if that concrete cause rather than atheism was the factor that caused their subsequent behaviour i m not arguing that atheism causes such behaviour merely that it is not relevant to the definition of atheism which is lack of belief in gods frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	re islamic genocide in article r gi e fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article qu o horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article qkovl k fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes false dichotomy you claimed the killing were not religiously motivated and i m saying that s wrong i m not saying that each and every killing is religiously motivate as i spelled out in detail which killings do you say are religously motivated for example i would claim that the recent assassination of four catholic construction workers who had no connection with the ira was probably religously motivated at the time of writing i think that someone who claims the current violence is motivated by religion is reaching what would you call is when someone writes the killings in n i are not religously motivated i d say it was motivated by a primitive notion of revenge and by misguided patriotism otherwise i d have to wonder how come mainland catholics are not killed by mainland protestants and southern catholics are not killed by southern protestants and so on take away all plausible causes bar religion and the violence diminishes markedly gee why is that now it s possible to argue that religion in the past is a major contributing factor to the violence in the present but i don t know of any evidence that this is so and i m not enough of a historian to debate it given that the avowed aim of the ira is to take northern ireland into a country that has a particular church written into its constitution and which has restriction on civil rights dictated by that church i fail to see why the word past is appropriate the country also has a different official language written in its constitution and vice versa maybe they re motivated by a love of irish poetry your argument is fallacious jon for what it s worth i agree with all that you say about ireland above and more frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	re islam and scientific predictions was re genocide is caused by atheism in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes deletion god is the one who created the night the day the sun and the moon each is travelling in an orbit with its own motion qur an the positive aspect of this verse noted by dr maurice bucaille is that while geocentrism was the commonly accepted notion at the time and for a long time afterwards there is no notion of geocentrism in this verse or anywhere in the qur an well that is certainly different but it looks as if there is a translation found for everything by the way i am most surprised to hear that night and day move in an orbit and that the sun travels in an orbit without saying that earth does too sounds geocentric to me benedikt
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article r inr lvi horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes deletion and if a real large lot nice phrase of people agree that there is a football on a desk i m supposed to see a logical difference between the two perhaps you can explain the difference to me since you seem to see it so clearly rest deleted that s a fallacy and it is not the first time it is pointed out it s not a fallacy note the if if a supermajority of disinterested people agree on a fundamantal value we re not doing ethics yet benedikt then what is the difference between that and those people agreeing on a trivial observation the reference to it s not yet being ethics is dubious you have used the terms absolute objective and others interchangeably same with moral values values at all worth measuers and usefulness you infer from them as if they were the same to the if when the if is not fulfilled your intermission is a waste of time assuming that you don t intend this it is reasonable to conclude that you want to argue a point you have made a interesting statement here namely that of the disinterested observer there is no such thing in morals probably the shortest proof for objective and morality being a contradiction for one you have never given a set of morals people agree upon unlike a football further you conveniently ignore here that there are many who would not agree on tghe morality of something the analogy does not hold i have however given an example of a value people agree on and explained why people will agree that their freedom is valuable i have also stated that such a value is a necessary condition for doing objective ethics the if assertion above and that is what i m talking about there isn t a point in talking about ethics if this can t be agreed fine and that freedom is valuable is not generally agreed upon i could name quite a lot of people who state the opposite not that that wasn t mentioned before in other words you have nothing to fulfill your strong claims with one can expect sufficiently many people to agree on its being a football while you have to give the evidence that only vanishing number disagrees with a set of morals you have to give i m not doing morals ethics if we can t get past values as i say the only cogent objection to my freedom example is that maybe people aren t talking about the same thing when they answer that it is valuable maybe not and i want to think about this some especially the implications of its being true clutching a straw i don t believe in mappings into metaphysical sets were loaded terms are fixpoints those who deny the morality of freedom make quite clear what they say their practice is telling yes there are even those who are willingly unfree it is quite common in religions by the way for one there is a religion which is named submission don t even try to argue that submission is freedom further the above is evidence not proof proof would evolve out of testing your theory of absolute morals against competing theories garbage that s not proof either if it were so it would argue my case but i am afraid that that is considered proof the above is one of the arguments you reiterate while you never answer the objections evidence that you are a preacher name that fallacy there is something universally valued in a moral context benedikt
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in qla g afp fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes in article qi l jkj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes i hope an islamic bank is something other than bcci which ripped off so many small depositors among the muslim community in the uk and elsewhere deletions bbci was an example of an islamically owned and operated bank what will someone bet me they weren t real islamic owners and operators and yet it actually turned out to be a long running and quite ruthless operation to steal money from small and often quite naive depositors an islamic bank is something which operates in a different fashion to your modern bank as i have explained here on another thread before for example islamic banks don t pay fixed interests on deposits but a return on investments which varies according to the market and is not fixed like interest is islamic banks are a relatively new phenomenon in the islamic world there are no islamic banks in the west including the usa to my knowledge i doubt if the market for them exists there at least not while islamic banks are at a relatively early stage of their development as is the case now bcci is most certainly not an islamic bank did bcci ever pay a fixed interest rate on deposits if the answer to this question is yes then bcci was not an islamic bank as islamic banks are specifically set up to not pay or charge interest whether some muslims partially owned the bank or whatever is completely irrelevant fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
alt.atheism	re death penalty gulf war long this is the most unmitigated bilge i ve seen in a while jim brown obviously has possession of the right wing token diplomatic alternatives including sanctions were ineffective in december former national security adviser zbigniew brzezinski told a senate committee that sanctions were costing iraq million per day and that the multinational coalition could take all the time in the world iraq he suggested was losing badly every day it defied the un demands while the community of nations won every day with no taking of life or loss of life fcnl washington newsletter the world is full of evil and circumstances are not perfect many innocents suffer due to the wrongful actions of others it it regretable but that s the way it is wrongful actions of murderers like leaders of the us government perhaps regrettable of course the way it is certainly not the media is not totally monolithic there are even conservative sources out there if you know where to look hurrah for rush good heavens an escapee from rush limbot land conservative my ass and btw the reason i brought up the blanket bombing in germany was because you were bemoaning the iraqi civilian casualties as being so deplorable yet blanket bombing was instituted because bombing wasn t accurate enough to hit industrial military targets in a decisive way by any other method at that time but in the gulf war precision bombing was the norm bullshit in the gulf massacre of all ordnance used was smart the rest that s was just regular dumb ol iron bombs and stuff have you forgotten that the pentagon definition of a successful patriot launch was when the missile cleared the launching tube with no damage or that a successful interception of a scud was defined as the patriot and scud passed each other in the same area of the sky and of the that was the smart stuff hit again try to follow me here that means of this smart arsenal missed the stories of hundreds of thousands of iraqi civilian dead is just plain bunk prove it i have a source that says that to date the civilian death count er excuse me i mean collateral damage is about s no one has attempted to calculate the costs of an execution in washington state but studies elsewhere suggest it costs far more than incarceration california is spending more than million annually on capital cases and until this year hadn t executed anyone since texas the national leader in the number of executions spends an estimated million per execution that compares to an average cost of incarceration in washington state of per maximum security prisoner per year shamim mohamed uunet noao cmcl arizona shamim shamim cs arizona edu take this cross and garlic here s a mezuzah if he s jewish a page of the koran if he s a muslim and if he s a zen buddhist you re on your own member of the league for programming freedom write to lpf uunet uu net
alt.atheism	re gulf war was re death penalty was re political atheists in article o rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes mccullou snake cs wisc edu mark mccullough writes i looked back at this and asked some questions of various people and got the following information which i had claimed and you pooh poohed the us has not sold iraq any arms what about the land mines which have already been mentioned i asked around in one of the areas you suggested yourself and presented the information i got no mention of us landmines was given other countries like kuwait information is hard to prove you are claiming that the us sold information prove it information is hard to prove almost certainly if the us did sell information then that fact is classified and you can t prove it oh very neat dismiss everything i say unless i can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt something which you yourself admit i can never prove to your satisfaction thanks i ll stick to squaring circles mathew okay so you are going to blindly believe in things without reasonable evidence i didn t realize you were a theist i am doubting a claim presented without any evidence to support it if you are able to present real evidence for it then great but unsupported claims or even claims by such and such news agency will not be accepted if you want to stick to the sheer impossible instead of the merely difficult then fine the statement that if such a fact is classified then you can t prove it is a simple matter of pragmatics and the law if you have access to classified information that you know to be classified and you reveal it there is a good chance that you or someone else the person who revealed it to you is going to jail i never said that you couldn t prove it to my satisfaction i merely said that it was difficult who said i try and make things easy for people i am arguing with unless of course they need the handicap mccullou whipple cs wisc edu never program and drink beer at the same m time it doesn t work
alt.atheism	re gulf war and peace niks in article r lva vq fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes in article apr bmerh bnr ca dgraham bmers bnr ca douglas graham writes wait a minute doug i know you are better informed than that the us has never invaded nicaragua as far as i know the us invaded nicaragua several times this century including october andf again in february haiti was occupied in thanks jon i had forgotten about the and invasions if i had ever learned of them i mean i really forgot but i read the context as more recent such as when the sandinistas were expecting an imminent invasion from the u s which never happened i stand corrected thanks panama we invaded true twice this century the us created panama in the first place by fomenting and then intervening in a civil war in the then republic of colombia us troops landed in colombia to help with the uprising and then colombia was duly dismembered and replaced by two countries in order that the us could build the panama canal in the new republic of panama i remembered this one this one and bush s invasion were the two i mentioned above good ol teddy r he knew how to get things done jon regards jim b
alt.atheism	re christian morality is in article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes in article ousrvr oulu fi kempmp phoenix oulu fi petri pihko writes dan schaertel dps nasa kodak com wrote what does this mean to learn you must accept that you don t know something right o but to learn you must accept something i don t know why this is not the way i prefer to learn it is unwise to merely swallow everything you read suppose i write a book telling how the great invisible pink unicorn tm has helped me in my daily problems would you accept this since you can t know whether it is true or not no one asks you to swallow everything in fact jesus warns against it but let me ask you a question do you beleive what you learn in history class or for that matter anything in school i mean it s just what other people have told you and you don t want to swallow what others say right right there is no way to get into a sceptical heart you can not say you have given a sincere effort with the attitude you seem to have you must trust not just go to church and participate in it s activities were you ever willing to die for what you believed the branch dividians were they believed and trusted so much that it became impossible to turn back to reality what you are advocating is total irreversible brainwashing dan
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism in article r oe hqd horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article r kt e fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article qugin tf horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article qkogg k fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes and in that area what you care about is whether someone is sceptical critical and autonomous on the one hand or gullible excitable and easily led on the other indeed i may and one may be an atheist and also be gullible excitable and easily led i would say that a tendency to worship tyrants and ideologies indicates that a person is easily led whether they have a worship or belief in a supernatural hero rather than an earthly one seems to me to be beside the point sure but whether or not they are atheists is what we are discussing not whether they are easily led not if you show that these hypothetical atheists are gullible excitable and easily led from some concrete cause in that case we would also have to discuss if that concrete cause rather than atheism was the factor that caused their subsequent behaviour i m not arguing that atheism causes such behaviour merely that it is not relevant to the definition of atheism which is lack of belief in gods throw away the faq we can all just ask mr o dwyer since he can define the thing that the rest of us only talk about jon
alt.atheism	re gulf war selling arms in article l rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes jbrown batman bmd trw com writes mathew i agree this it seems is the crux of your whole position isn t it that the us shouldn t have supported hussein and sold him arms to fight iran i agree and i agree in ruthlessly hunting down those who did or do but we did sell arms to hussein and it s a done deal now he invades kuwait so do we just sit back and say well we sold him all those arms i suppose he just wants to use them now too bad for kuwait no unfortunately sitting back and letting things be is not the way to correct a former mistake destroying hussein s military potential as we did was the right move but i agree with your statement reagan and bush made a grave error in judgment to sell arms to hussein but it s still happening that s the entire point only last month john major hailed it as a great victory that he had personally secured a sale of arms to saudi arabia the same month we sold jet fighters to the same indonesian government that s busy killing the east timorese i heard about the arms sale to saudi arabia now how is it such a grave mistake to sell saudi arabia weapons or are you claiming that we shouldn t sell any weapons to other countries straightforward answer please it s all very well to say oops we made a boo boo better clean up the mistake but the us and uk keep making the same mistake they do it so often that i can t believe it s not deliberate this suspicion is reinforced by the fact that the mistake is an extremely profitable one for a decrepit economy reliant on arms sales who benefits from arms sales hint it isn t normally the gov t it is the contractor that builds that piece of equipment believe it or not the us and uk don t export the huge quantities of arms that you have just accused them of doing arms exports are rare enough that it requires an act of congress for non small arms to most countries if not all do you believe in telling everyone who can do what and who can sell their goods to whom mathew mccullou whipple cs wisc edu never program and drink beer at the same m time it doesn t work
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice wrote stuff deleted now i do not believe in blindly following anyone no matter how knowledgeable he or she may be in islamic law if someone tells me islam says such and such i immediately say show me the support for this statement from the qur an and sunnah i believe this to be my islamic duty for according to one hadith of the prophet peace and blessings of god be with him if your leader tells you to enter a fire and you do it and kill yourself then you have sinned for doing wrong even though you were blindly following the instructions of your leader i am responsible for my own actions not abu hanifa or imam malik etc even if i am blindly following the opinions of abu hanifa etc with this in mind to my understanding we must look at the reasoning behind such opinions of muslims that support khomeini s fatwa now to my understanding the hadith upon which those who support khomeini s fatwa is relating to a particular instance that occurred during war time now brother in general it is imho ridiculous and wrong to say that a hadith relating to the actions of war is usable during times of peace i think any sensible human being can see this so i personally think that the reasoning of some of our ulema in this matter is faulty for they think it is legitimate to use acts of war in times of peace regarding this particular subject if you think i am wrong please feel free to say so with your reasoning from qur an and hadith please not because somebody said so i want the reasoning from al qur an and the sahih hadiths perhaps we should take our discussion to soc religion islam please email me rashid if you think we should do this by the way i also disagree with your opinion regarding the punishment for apostasy the viewpoint i follow that there is in general no punishment for apostasy is very strongly supported by qur an and hadith this is very well shown in the book punishment in islamic law by mohamed s el awa american trust publications i reiterate that i would agree with you that there is little justification for the punishment of apostasy in the qur an in islamic history as well apostasy has rarely been punished belief is considered a matter of conscience and since there is to be no compulsion in the matter of belief apostates have been generally left to believe or not believe as they will however when an apostate makes attacks upon god and his messenger the situation changes now the charge of apostasy may be complicated with other charges perhaps charges of sedition treason spying etc if the person makes a public issue of their apostasy or mounts public attacks as opposed to arguement against islam the situation is likewise complicated if the person spreads slander or broadcasts falsehoods again the situation changes the punishments vary according to the situation the apostate is in anyhow the charge of aggravated apostasy would only be a subsidiary charge in rushdie s case there is a distinction in the qur an between a formal war situation and being in the situation where someone unilaterally wages war by their actions creates disorder makes mischief etc against the muslims and creates a situation that results in harm to muslims here a small group or even a single individual could be said to be engaged in such a practise in other words there is a clear difference between a formal war situation where two clearly defined parties wage war conclude treaties exchange prisoners etc and dealing with attacks that come from isolated individuals or groups against islam it is the second situation the unilateral attack and the spreading of fasad that would apply in the case of rushdie the matter of rushdie is not a simple matter of banning an offensive book banning the book is secondary a full set of circumstances following the publication of the book come into play as well including the deaths of many muslims and rushdie s and his publishers media games now i do not believe in blindly following anyone no matter how knowledgeable he or she may be in islamic law if someone tells me islam says such and such i immediately say show me the support for this statement from the qur an and sunnah i believe this to be my islamic duty for according to one hadith of the prophet peace and blessings of god be with him if your leader tells you to enter a fire and you do it and kill yourself then you have sinned for doing wrong even though you were blindly following the instructions of your leader i am responsible for my own actions not abu hanifa or imam malik etc even if i am blindly following the opinions of abu hanifa etc now to my understanding the hadith upon which those who support khomeini s fatwa is relating to a particular instance that occurred during war time now brother in general it is imho ridiculous and wrong to say that a hadith relating to the actions of war is usable during times of peace i think any sensible human being can see this so i personally think that the reasoning of some of our ulema in this matter is faulty for they think it is legitimate to use acts of war in times of peace regarding this particular subject i am not sure which hadith you are referring to above i believe that one of the qur anic verses on which the fatwa is based is every verse in the qur an has a corresponding circumstance of revelation but in no way is the understanding the tafsir of the verse restricted solely to the particular historical circumstance in which it was revealed if this was the case then we could say that all the laws and regulations that were revealed when the muslims were not involved in conflict should be suspended when they were at war the logic does not follow in complex real life situations there may be many verses and many hadiths which can all be related to a single complicated situation the internal relationships between these verses may be quite complex such that arriving at an understanding of how the verses interlock and how each applies to the particular situation can be quite a demanding task it is not necessarily a simple this or that process there may be many parameters involved there may be a larger context in which a particular situation should be viewed all these matters impinge on the situation in other words there is a great deal involved in deciphering the qur an the qur an asks us to reflect on its verses but this reflection must entail more than simply reading a verse and its corresponding hadith if the reflection is for the sake of increasing personal piety then each person has his own level of understanding and there is no harm in that however if the reflection is in order to decide matters that pertain to the state to the gestation of laws and rulings to the gestation of society the dispensing of justice the guidance of the community then there are certain minimum requirements of understanding that one should achieve jaffar ibn muhammad as sadiq a s relates some of these requirements as taught by the prophet s a in a hadith he who does not distinguish in the book of allah the abrogating verse from the abrogated one and a specific one from a general one and a decisive from an ambiguous and does not differentiate between a permission and an obligation and does not recognize a verse of meccan period from a medinite one and does not know the circumstances of revelation and does not understand the technical words of the qur an whether simple or compound and does not comprehend the knowledge of decree and measure and is ignorant of advancing and delaying in its verses and does not distinguish the clear from the deep nor the manifest from the esoteric nor the beginning from the termination and is unaware of the question and the answer the disjoining and the joining and the exceptions and the all inclusive and is ignorant of an adjective of a preceding noun that explains the subsequent one and is unaware of the emphasized subject and the detailed one the obligatory laws and the permissions the places of the duties and rules and the meaning of the lawful and the unlawful and does not know the joined words and the words that are related to those coming before them or after them then such a man does not know the qur an nor is he among the people of the qur an based on these and other hadiths and in accordance with many qur anic verses why should not a company from every group remain behind to gain profound understanding tafaqquh in religion and to warn people when they return to them so that they may beware a science of jurisprudence arose the requirements for a person to be considered a mujtahid one who can pronounce on matters of law and religion are many i ve listed a few major divisions below there are of course many subdivisions within these headings knowledge of arabic syntax conjugation roots semantics oratory knowledge of tafsir and principles of tafsir logic mantiq a knowledge of hadiths a knowledge of transmitters rijal knowledge of the principles of juriprudence qur an sunnah consensus reasoning the study of qur an and sunnah for purposes of law involves discussion of imperatives awamir discussion of negative imperatives nawahi discussion of generalities and particularities aam wa khas discussion of unconditional and conditional discussion of tacit meanings discussion of the abstract and the clear discussion of the abrogator and the abrogated the principles of application of the law involves principles of exemption principles of precaution principles of option principles of mastery the jurisprudent is bound to go through a very rigorous process in pronouncing judgement on a given situation it is not a matter of looking at one verse and one hadith now no one should blindly follow anyone but there is a difference between blind following and acceding to the opinion of someone who is clearly more knowledgeable and more qualified than oneself there is the famous hadith of the prophet s a in which he says the fuqaha religious scholars are the trustees of the prophet as long as they do not concern themselves with the illicit desires pleasures and wealth of this world the prophet s a was asked o messenger of god how may we know if they so concern themselves he s a replied by seeing whether they follow the ruling power if they do that fear for your religion and shun them i do not yet know enough about the imams of the four sunni madhabs to comment on how this hadith applies to them or to the contemporary scholars who base themselves upon them the prophet also refered to the fuqaha as the fortress of islam my only point is to make it clear that arriving at a legal judgement calls into play a certain amount of expertise the specifics of this expertise is delineated in the qur an and hadith those who acquire this expertise are praised in both the qur an and hadith those who without the requisite knowledge pronounce on matters that affect society state and religion are cautioned the only reason i said anything at all about the rushdie affair in this group is because the whole basis for the discussion of the fatwa that is apostasy was wrong when one discusses something they should at least base their discussion on fact secondly khomeini was condemned as a heretic because he supposedly claimed to be infallible another instance of creating a straw man and then beating him perhaps we should take our discussion to soc religion islam please email me rashid if you think we should do this i agree that we should move the discussion to another newsgroup unfortunately i do not have any access to email so private discussion or a moderated group is out of the question i cannot post to a moderated group like soc religion islam how about soc culture arabic or talk religion misc as salaam a laikum
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger wrote i have already made the clear claim that khomeini advocates views which are in contradition with the qur an and have given my arguments for this this is something that can be checked by anyone sufficiently interested khomeini being dead really can t respond but another poster who supports khomeini has responded with what is clearly obfuscationist sophistry this should be quite clear to atheists as they are less susceptible to religionist modes of obfuscationism don t mind my saying this but the best example of obfuscation is to condemn without having even your most basic facts straight if you want some examples go back and look at your previous posts where you manage to get your facts wrong about the fatwa and khomeini s supposed infallibility as salaam a laikum
alt.atheism	re consciousness part ii kev strikes back kevin anthoney kax cs nott ac uk wrote about my reply diplomatic it a society that is constantly on the verge of flaming usenet diplomacy is the best way to ensure the voice of reason gets through isn t it i realize i m fighting occam s razor in this argument so i ll try to explain why i feel a mind is necessary kevin unfortunately you are now delving into field i know too little about algorithms your reasoning as i see it is very much along the lines of roger penrose who claimed that mathematical insight cannot be algorithmic in his book the emperor s new mind concerning computers minds and the laws of physics however penrose s claim that he has mathematical insight or your similar claim that wavefunctions collapse only when we consciously take a look could be just illusions we are obviouslu taking very different viewpoints i try to ponder on the problem of consciousness from an evolutionary perspective realising that it might not be anything special but certainly useful thinking back of what i wrote do you think worms have minds or not they are able to experience pain at least they behave just like that yet it is conceivable that we might some day in the future perform a total synthesis of c elegans from the elements would such a worm have a mind firstly i m not impressed with the ability of algorithms they re great at solving problems once the method has been worked out but not at working out the method itself this is true to some extent however i do not think that our brains work like computers at all in fact there is substantial evidence skarda skarda freeman that brains work more or less chaotically generating enough randomness for mental states to evolve our brains work much like genetic algorithm generators i suppose the trick still has to be there in some form to be discovered does this mean that all the ideas we will ever have are already pre programmed into our brains this is somewhat unlikely given that our brains ultimately are encoded in chromosomes worth of genetic material much of which isn t used indeed this is extremely unlikely given the vast impact of nurture on our mind and brain i suggest however that before trying to understand our consciousness as a collection of algorithms kevin take a look at the references i mentioned and think again i still think the best experts on the nature of a conscious mind are neurologists neuropsychologists and biologists but do not flame me for my opinions since they study beings that are conscious the reason i am repeating my advice is that this discussion cannot lead to anywhere if our backgrounds are too different and please do not bring qm into this discussion at all not all physicists are happy with the claim that our consciousness plays some special role in physics i would say it doesn t the other problem with algorithms is their instability not many algorithms survive if you take out a large portion of their code yet people survive strokes without going completely haywire there are side effects but patients still seem remarkably stable also neurons in perfectly healthy people are dying at an alarming rate can an algorithm survive if i randomly corrupt various bits of it s code again brains are not computers don t forget this this does not mean they need something else to work they just work differently their primary purpose is perception and guidance of action self awareness and high intelligence are later appearances the next problem is the sticky question of what is colour replace colour with the sensation of your choice presumably the materialist viewpoint is that it s the product of some kind of chemical reaction the usual products of such a reaction are energy different chemicals is colour a mixture of these you are still expecting that we could find the idea of green in our brains somewhere perhaps in the form of some chemical this is not how i see it the sensation green is a certain time dependent pattern in the area v of our visual cortex and it is distributed with the help of areas v and v to the rest of the brain indeed a firing pattern i have sometimes thought of our consciousness as a global free induction pattern of these local firing patterns but this is just idle speculation scientific american s september issue was a special issue on mind and brain have you already read it from cover to cover there are two articles on visual perception so you might be interested but again please note that subjective experiences cannot be observed from a third person perspective if we see nothing but neuronal activity we cannot go on to conclude that this is not the mind kalat writes about numerous examples where electric stimulation of different areas of brain have led to various changes in the patients state of mind for instance a patient whose septal area was stimulated without his knowledge by remote control during a psychiatric interview was quickly cured of his depression and started discussing a plan to seduce his girlfriend stimulations in the temporal lobe have sometimes led to embarrassing situations when the patients have started flirting with the therapist in conclusion there is evidence that brains are essentially necessary for subjective experiences brain damage is usually equivalent to some sort of mind damage conscious processes involve substantial brain activity in various areas of brain when we think of colours our visual cortex is activated etc consciousness is an afterthought we become conscious of our actions with a half a second delay and our brains are ahead of our conscious will by at least ms thus i think it is fruitful to turn the question why do i see colours around and ask what is this i that seems to be observing since it seems that our conscious mind is not the king of our brains if this is so a computer won t see colour because the chemistry is different does an algorithm that sees colour have a selective advantage over an equivalent that doesn t it shouldn t because the outputs of each algorithm ought to be the same in equivalent circumstances so why do we see colour this depends on what is meant by seeing colours does a neural network that is capable of recognising handwritten numbers from to see the numbers if it is capable of sorting them if you are asking why does an animal who is conscious of itself as an observer have an evolutionary advantage over an animal who doesn t i have a good answer read my previous posting where i wrote why a sense of identity helps social animals to swap roles and act more morally so that they don t unconsciously kill each other with newly discovered weapons a bit extreme but this is the basic idea when early homo became more and more efficient in using tools a sense of identity and the concept of self had to evolve in line with this development indeed respect for others and conscious altruistic behaviour might be evolutionary advantages for social animals such as early humans if i remember correctly quantum mechanics consists of a wavefunction with two processes acting on it the first process has been called unitary evolution or u is governed by schroedinger s equation and is well known the second process called various things such as collapse of the wavefunction or state vector reduction or r and is more mysterious it is usually said to occur when a measurement takes place although nobody seems to know precisely when that occurs when it does occur the effect of r is to abruptly change the wavefunction if minds are required for this does this mean that until human minds came to the scene wavefunctions never collapsed but remained in the superpositions for aeons my how powerful we are this has been discussed before and i think this topic is irrelevant since we do not agree that minds are necessary and neither do physicists anyway i m speculating that minds would be in part x there seems to be some link between consciousness and r in that we never see linear superpositions of anything although there are alternative explainations for this i ve no idea how a brain is supposed to access part x but since this is only speculation that won t matter too much my main point is that there might be a place for minds in physics i agree but not in the sense you apparently mean above physics needs sharp minds to solve many real problems i ll go back to my nice padded cell now if that s ok with you it s ok if you don t forget to take with you the references i wrote about in my previous posting plus the following kalat james w biological psychology rd ed wadsworth publishing company belmont ca skarda c explaining behavior bringing the brain back in inquiry skarda c freeman w how brains make chaos in order to make sense of the world behavioral and brain sciences petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics is the truth pihatie c finou oulu fi physics is the rule of sf oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry is the game
alt.atheism	re consciousness part ii kev strikes back scott d sauyet ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu wrote in apr cs nott ac uk kevin anthony kax cs nott ac uk writes firstly i m not impressed with the ability of algorithms they re great at solving problems once the method has been worked out but not at working out the method itself crossword example deleted have you heard of neural networks i ve read a little about them and they seems to overcome most of your objections i m sure there are many people who work with neural networks and read this newsgroup please tell kevin what you ve achieved and what you expect i am not saying that nns will solve all such problems but i think they show that it is not as hard as you think to come up with mechanical models of consciousness indeed i think dualism is a non solution or as dennett recently put it a dead horse petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics is the truth pihatie c finou oulu fi physics is the rule of sf oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry is the game
alt.atheism	re consciousness part ii kev strikes back in article apr ousrvr oulu fi kempmp phoenix oulu fi petri pihko writes kevin anthoney kax cs nott ac uk wrote this post is probably either brilliant or insane do let me know which a brilliant example of using the introspective objection against materialist theories of consciousness diplomatic i realize i m fighting occam s razor in this argument so i ll try to explain why i feel a mind is necessary firstly i m not impressed with the ability of algorithms they re great at solving problems once the method has been worked out but not at working out the method itself as a specific example i like to solve numerical crosswords not the simple do the sums and insert the answers type the hard ones to do these with any efficiency you need to figure out a variety of tricks now i know that you can program a computer to do these puzzles but in doing so you have to work out the tricks yourself and program them into the computer you can of course obfuscate the trick and write the program so that it is uncovered but as far as i can see the trick still has to be there in some form to be discovered does this mean that all the ideas we will ever have are already pre programmed into our brains this is somewhat unlikely given that our brains ultimately are encoded in chromosomes worth of genetic material much of which isn t used one way around this is to bring the environment into the equation but again as far as i can see this still has an air of if you see object x then perform action y and we don t seem to get anywhere the algorithm has to anticipate what it might see and what conclusions to draw from it s experience the other problem with algorithms is their instability not many algorithms survive if you take out a large portion of their code yet people survive strokes without going completely haywire there are side effects but patients still seem remarkably stable also neurons in perfectly healthy people are dying at an alarming rate can an algorithm survive if i randomly corrupt various bits of it s code the next problem is the sticky question of what is colour replace colour with the sensation of your choice presumably the materialist viewpoint is that it s the product of some kind of chemical reaction the usual products of such a reaction are energy different chemicals is colour a mixture of these if this is so a computer won t see colour because the chemistry is different does an algorithm that sees colour have a selective advantage over an equivalent that doesn t it shouldn t because the outputs of each algorithm ought to be the same in equivalent circumstances so why do we see colour however such a view is actually a nonsolution how should minds be able to act as observers feel pain and pleasure and issue commands any better than the brain moreover how do the interactions occur a bit of idle speculation if i remember correctly quantum mechanics consists of a wavefunction with two processes acting on it the first process has been called unitary evolution or u is governed by schroedinger s equation and is well known the second process called various things such as collapse of the wavefunction or state vector reduction or r and is more mysterious it is usually said to occur when a measurement takes place although nobody seems to know precisely when that occurs when it does occur the effect of r is to abruptly change the wavefunction i envisage r as an interaction between the wavefunction and something else which i shall imaginitively call part x it seems reasonable to assume that something causes r although that something might be the wavefunction itself in which case part x is simply the wavefunction note though that we d need more than u to explain r anyway i m speculating that minds would be in part x there seems to be some link between consciousness and r in that we never see linear superpositions of anything although there are alternative explainations for this i ve no idea how a brain is supposed to access part x but since this is only speculation that won t matter too much my main point is that there might be a place for minds in physics i ll go back to my nice padded cell now if that s ok with you petri kevin anthoney kax cs nott ac uk don t believe anything you read in sig files
alt.atheism	re christian morality is in article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com dan schaertel wrote the life death and resurection of christ is documented historical fact not by any standard of history i ve seen care to back this up sans the lies apologists are so fond of however all the major events of the life of jesus christ were fortold hundreds of years before him neat trick uh not really most of the prophesies aren t even prophesies they re prayers and comments taken from the torah quite out of context seems xians started lying right from the beginning there is no way to get into a sceptical heart you can not say you have given a sincere effort with the attitude you seem to have my we re an arrogant ass aren t we you must trust not just go to church and participate in it s activities you re wrong to think we haven t the trust was in something that doesn t exist were you ever willing to die for what you believed i m still willing to die for what i believe and don t believe so were the loonies in waco so what besides the point s not to die for what one believes in the point s to make that other sorry son of a bitch to die for what he believes in doesn t anyone else here get tired of these cretins tirades peter the damed and damned proud of it don t forget to sing they say there s a heaven for those who will wait some say it s better but i say it ain t i d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints the sinners are much more fun only the good die young
alt.atheism	re cults vs religions in article r bfe hg aurora engr latech edu ray engr latech edu bill ray wrote james thomas green jgreen trumpet calpoly edu wrote so in conclusion it can be shown that there is essentially no logical argument which clearly differentiates a cult from a religion i challenge anyone to produce a distinction which is clear and can t be easily knocked down how about this one a religion is a cult which has stood the test of time or a religion is a cult that got co opted by people who are better at compartmentalizing their irrationality peter don t forget to sing they say there s a heaven for those who will wait some say it s better but i say it ain t i d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints the sinners are much more fun only the good die young
alt.atheism	re gulf war and peace niks in article e rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes jbrown batman bmd trw com writes the problem with most peace niks it they consider those of us who are not like them to be bad and unconscionable i would not have any argument or problem with a peace nik if they held to their ideals and stayed out of all conflicts or issues especially those dealing with the national defense but no they are not willing to allow us to legitimately hold a different point of view they militate and many times resort to violence all in the name of peace yawn another right wing wasp imagining he s an oppressed minority perhaps camille paglia is right after all personal attacks i would not have any argument or problem with a peace nik if they stayed out of all conflicts or issues i bet you wouldn t you d love it deliberate misinterpretation of a persons statement by cutting out the part of the statement he tries to blunt the thrust of the sentence he never addresses the issue of extreemist peace people not holding true to their ideals but what makes you think that sitting back saying nothing about defense issues and letting people like you make all the decisions is anything to do with their ideals ignoring the challenge he ignores the challenge that extreemists for peace tend to be quite insistent that everyone accept their ideals for the world and have even turned quite violent witness chicago summer mathew paranoia he assumes that anyone who argues against his viewpoint must masturbate over guns n ammo fire up the oven it isn t hot enough mccullou whipple cs wisc edu never program and drink beer at the same m time it doesn t work
alt.atheism	re death penalty gulf war long in article optima cs arizona edu sham cs arizona edu shamim zvonko mohamed writes this is the most unmitigated bilge i ve seen in a while jim brown obviously has possession of the right wing token diplomatic alternatives including sanctions were ineffective in december former national security adviser zbigniew brzezinski told a senate committee that sanctions were costing iraq million per day and that the multinational coalition could take all the time in the world iraq he suggested was losing badly every day it defied the un demands while the community of nations won every day with no taking of life or loss of life fcnl washington newsletter as i understand that number is deceptive the reason is that the money cost was in non oil sales for the most part iraq still is not allowed to sell oil or do many of the things under the initial sanctions but is still surviving and btw the reason i brought up the blanket bombing in germany was because you were bemoaning the iraqi civilian casualties as being so deplorable yet blanket bombing was instituted because bombing wasn t accurate enough to hit industrial military targets in a decisive way by any other method at that time but in the gulf war precision bombing was the norm bullshit in the gulf massacre of all ordnance used was smart the rest that s was just regular dumb ol iron bombs and stuff have you forgotten that the pentagon definition of a successful patriot launch was when the missile cleared the launching tube with no damage or that a successful interception of a scud was defined as the patriot and scud passed each other in the same area of the sky of the i have heard figures closer to but i won t quibble your figures most was dropped in carpet bombing of regions only occupied by enemy troops a b drops a lot of bombs in one sortie and we used them around the clock not to mention other smaller aircraft using dumb munitions the patriot uses a proximity fuse the adjusted figures for number of patriot kills of ss derivitives is that figure came not from some fluke in the pentagon but a someone working with such stuff in another part of dod the statement precision bombing was the norm is true around areas where civilians were close to the target we dropped by tonnage very little bombs in populated regions explaining the figures and of the that was the smart stuff hit again try to follow me here that means of this smart arsenal missed this figure is far below all the other figures i have seen if it is indeed accurate then how do you explain the discrepancy between that figure and other figures from international organizations most figures i have seen place the hit ratio close to which is still far higher than your or does your figure say a bomb missed if the plane took off with it and the bomb never hit the target regardless of whether or not the bomb was dropped such methods are used all the time to lie with statistics the stories of hundreds of thousands of iraqi civilian dead is just plain bunk prove it i have a source that says that to date the civilian death count er excuse me i mean collateral damage is about i have never seen any source that was claiming such a figure please post the source so its reliability can be judged mccullou whipple cs wisc edu never program and drink beer at the same m time it doesn t work
alt.atheism	re david coresh is god on one of the morning shows i think is was the today show david koresh s lawyer was interviewed during that interview he flipped through some letters that david koresh wrote on one of letters was written in hebrew near the bottom of the page koresh adonai did anyone else see that what could this mean by him david writing this
alt.atheism	re smullyanism for the day in article r tpi pu dr pepper east sun com geoff east sun com geoff arnold sun bos r h coast near the top writes this raymond smullyan quote is too big for a sig but deserves posting imho to big for a sig no way keith home of the billdboard sig files ryan private note to jennifer fakult this post may contain one or more of the following sarcasm cycnicism irony or humor please be aware of this possibility and do not allow yourself to be confused and or thrown for a loop if in doubt assume all of the above the owners of this account do not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability to recognize any of the above read at your own risk jennifer
alt.atheism	re christian morality is in article apr cs nott ac uk kax cs nott ac uk kevin anthoney writes in article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes the fact is god could cause you to believe anything he wants you to but think about it for a minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you or because they wanted to love you there s a difference between believing in the existence of an entity and loving that entity god could show me directly that he exists and i d still have a free choice about whether to love him or not so why doesn t he kevin anthoney kax cs nott ac uk don t believe anything you read in sig files kevin makes a good point here and when that theists miss all too often that is the belief in a diety is not necessarily coupled with agreement love of that diety so really they have yet another bit of convincing to do just beyond belief i guess the standard argumet goes something like well once you believe in god you know god is love and you will choose to love him if it wasnt so widely accepted and asserted it d be laughable best regards adam adam john cooper verily often have i laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had no claws understand one another i fear i am beyond your comprehension gandalf
alt.atheism	re christian morality is in article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com dan schaertel writes in article ousrvr oulu fi kempmp phoenix oulu fi petri pihko writes dan schaertel dps nasa kodak com wrote i love god just as much as she loves me if she wants to seduce me she ll know what to do but if he she did you would probably consider it rape probably because it is rape simple logic arguments are folly if you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools of those who tried to trick him with logic our ability to reason is just a spec of creation yet some think it is the ultimate if you rely simply on your reason then you will never know more than you do now your argument is of the type you ll know once you try yet there are many atheists who have sincerely tried and believed for many years but were eventually honest enough to admit that they had lived in a virtual reality obviously there are many christians who have tried and do believe so so nothing it may work for some but not for others it doesn t give any insight into an overall god or overall truth of a religion it would seem to be dependent solely on the individual as well as individually created and since christians have failed to show us how there way of life is in any wy better than ours i do not see why the attempt to try it is necessary or even particularly attractive to learn you must accept that which you don t know what does this mean to learn you must accept that you don t know something right o but to learn you must accept something i don t know why this is not the way i prefer to learn it is unwise to merely swallow everything you read suppose i write a book telling how the great invisible pink unicorn tm has helped me in my daily problems would you accept this since you can t know whether it is true or not no one asks you to swallow everything in fact jesus warns against it but let me ask you a question do you beleive what you learn in history class or for that matter anything in school i mean it s just what other people have told you and you don t want to swallow what others say right well we will nerver know for sure if we were told the truth or not but at the very least there is a bit more evidence pointing to the fact that say there was a military conflict in vietnam years ago then there is a supernatural diety who wants us to live a certain way the fact that jesus warned against it means nothing i warn against it too big deal the life death and resurection of christ is documented historical fact this is not true the first two choices here life and death are scantily documented and the last one is total malarky unless one uses the bible and that is totally circular perhaps it be better to use the imagination or one s ignorance someone else will address this i m sure and refer you to plenty of documentation as much as anything else you learn how do you choose what to believe and what not to i could argue that george washington is a myth he never lived because i don t have any proof except what i am told however all the major events of the life of jesus christ were fortold hundreds of years before him neat trick uh how is this there is nothing more disgusting than christian attempts to manipulate interpret the old testament as being filled with signs for the coming of christ every little reference to a stick or bit of wood is autmoatically interpreted as the cross what a miscarriage of philology there is no way to get into a sceptical heart you can not say you have given a sincere effort with the attitude you seem to have you must trust not just go to church and participate in it s activities were you ever willing to die for what you believed well since we have skeptical hearts thank goodness there is no way to get into us here we have the irreconcilable difference christians glorify exactly what we tend to despise or snub trust belief faith without knowledge if i am lucky one day and i happen to be thinking of god at the same time my enkephalins go up then i may associate this as a sign of god it will feel right and i will trust without knowing maybe religosity does not seem to be anything that is conclusively arrived at but rather it seems to be more of a sudden affliction i believe many of us were willing to die for what we believed many of us were not the question is is suchg an attitude reflective of a correct or healthy morality it would seem not to be the same thing could reflect fanaticism for example and is any case an expression of simple selfishness adam adam john cooper verily often have i laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had no claws understand one another i fear i am beyond your comprehension gandalf
alt.atheism	from soc religion christian i found this little gem i don t know if anyone has any interest comments hi everyone i m a commited christian that is battling with a problem i know that romans talks about how we are saved by our faith not our deeds yet hebrews and james say that faith without deeds is useless saying you fools do you still think that just believing is enough now if someone is fully believing but there life is totally lead by themselves and not by god according to romans that person is still saved by there faith but then there is the bit which says that god preferes someone who is cold to him i e doesn t know him condemned so a lukewarm christian someone who knows and believes in god but doesn t make any attempt to live by the bible now i am of the opinion that you a saved through faith alone not what you do as taught in romans but how can i square up in my mind the teachings of james in conjunction with the lukewarm christian being spat out can anyone help me this really bothers me in christ will adam adam john cooper verily often have i laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had no claws understand one another i fear i am beyond your comprehension gandalf
alt.atheism	re college atheists in article apr nuscc nus sg cmtan iss nus sg tan chade meng dan writes nm w andrew cmu edu nanci ann miller writes nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye writes i read an article about a poll done of students at the ivy league schools in which it was reported that a third of the students indentified themselves as atheists this is a lot higher than among the general population i wonder what the reasons for this discrepancy are is it because they are more intelligent younger is this the wave of the future what is the figure for the general population the last i heard of americans believe in reincarnation can somebody quote a stat i don t have a stat but unfortunately i did read generally that both smoking and belief in the supernatural occultish garbage is on the rise here i would guess that it probably has something to do with the ease of which ideas and thoughts are communicated on a college campus so in a world where theists are forced to contend with and listen to atheists and theists of other religions some are bound to have a change in their beliefs over four years there is nowhere to run funny in my country it works the other way round univ life is v v stressful for most people remember we re an asian population xtians like to prey on these people there is nowhere to run from them this is very interesting i thing the principle is sort of the same though all philosophical ideas are generally tried out and tested mostly during college years whether the idea is christian or atheist doesn t always matter but i d like to say it s because atheists are more intelligent the unenlightened one tan chade meng the wise man tells his wife that he understands her singapore cmtan iss nus sg the fool tries to prove it regards adam adam john cooper verily often have i laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had no claws understand one another i fear i am beyond your comprehension gandalf
alt.atheism	some thoughts on christian books dn i think i took on this liar lunatic or the real thing dn the last time or was it the time before anyway let dn somebody else have a turn i can t debate it with a dn straight face or perhaps for something completely dn different we could just ridicule him or gather up all the dn posts from the last two times we did this and email them to dn him as an aside can you believe that somebody actually dn got a book published about this must have been a vanity dn press i would recomend to anyone out there to visit your local christian bookstore and become aware of the stuff they sell quite interesting most of the stuff is far from intelectual about the level of chick pamphelets if it is a common fundie bookstore it should have at least one section about how you should hate wiccans pagans catholics mormons rock musicians and anyone else who is not as fanatical as them hate for the love of god tm it is even more interesting watching the people who frequent such places very scary people they hear voices from god telling them whatever they want to hear if they were not christians most of them would be locked away maybe this is why federal money was reduced to mental institutions by the reagan administration had to get their religious leaders out where would christianity be if jesus got eight to fifteen years with time off for good behavior new york state senator james h donovan on capitol punishment alan beware to touch these wires is instant death anyone found doing this will be prosecuted
alt.atheism	re what it means to be human was parsifal in article apr cs ucla edu brad pierce pierce cs ucla edu writes the bedrock of spiritual unreason is the belief that resonant yet but theology is full of reason even if it is as we believe based on false premises etc etc ill defined terms e g spirit transcendental mind self consciousness ultimate reality soul elan vital etc have meaning sadly adherents of spiritual movements are seldom satisfied hold on there no meaning to consciousness or mind or self with this harmless illogicality they seem inexorably drawn to a belief what illogicality in the primacy of the spiritual and transcendental over the material and empirical i e the primacy of pipe dreams jabberwocky and illusion over facts science and reason since when is for instance non behaviourist psychology a pipe dream surely the major purpose of the science of psychology is to understand the workings of the mind all creatures all feelings all thoughts all perceptions all processes and all phenomena are manifestations of the mundane i e matter energy space and time those who believe otherwise albeit some do not supplicate god are not atheists manifestations of the mundane sounds rather transcendental to me in fact matter energy space and time are well measured but mysterious concepts does an atheist really have to believe in your reductionism or be cast out as not following the true faith richard wilson logica industry ltd
alt.atheism	re christian morality is acooper mac cc macalstr edu turin turambar me department of utter misery said re dan schaertel s article if i followed the quoting right as much as anything else you learn how do you choose what to believe and what not to i could argue that george washington is a myth he never lived because i don t have any proof except what i am told however all the major events of the life of jesus christ were fortold hundreds of years before him neat trick uh how is this there is nothing more disgusting than christian attempts to manipulate interpret the old testament as being filled with signs for the coming of christ every little reference to a stick or bit of wood is autmoatically interpreted as the cross what a miscarriage of philology i think it may also be worthwhile pointing out that if we take the appellation rabbi seriously then jesus had a full grasp of contemporary scripture mat jesus saith unto them did ye never read in the scriptures mat jesus answered and said unto them ye do err not knowing mat the scriptures nor the power of god following from this he would have been in a wonderful position to fulfil prophesies and the nt says as much mat but how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled mat that thus it must be mat but all this was done that the scriptures of the mat prophets might be fulfilled then all the disciples mat forsook him and fled if the books comprising the referred to scripture had not been accessible then it probably would be a different matter tony
alt.atheism	another request for darwin fish hello gang there have been some notes recently asking where to obtain the darwin fish this is the same question i have and i have not seen an answer on the net if anyone has a contact please post on the net or email me thanks john chadwick johnchad triton unm edu or
alt.atheism	re another request for darwin fish darwin fish can be bought from join the darwinners tm send to receive your official evolving fish wherever you want to spread the good news darwinners sunset blvd ste l a ca the greatest theory ever told jenny forty years from now nursing homes will be filled with demented hackers studying their blank laptop screens nicely placed on knitted quilts to keep their knees warm k mitchum
alt.atheism	re faq sheet mike mcangus mam mouse cmhnet org wrote by the way news announce newusers has an article can t remember which one that recommends reading a newsgroup for month before posting this makes sense because you get an idea who the players are and what the current discussions are about am i the only one who followed that advice no i spent a month just reading too mainly because i did not know much about the way atheists think i even printed out the faqs and discussed it with a friend before i started posting alt atheism deals with religious issues more appropriately lack of religious beliefs which are by their very nature very controversial it makes sense to read what is being discussed and how just to make sure you are not repeating something others have said better petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics is the truth pihatie c finou oulu fi physics is the rule of sf oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry is the game
alt.atheism	re gulf war was re death penalty was re political atheists mark mccullough mccullou snake cs wisc edu wrote details of us built chemical plant at al alteer near baghdad however the plant s intended use was to aid the iraqi infrastructure it is not an example of selling a weapon may sound nitpicking but are we going to refuse to sell valuable parts that build the infrastructure because of dual use technology i am contending that in this case and in the case of the sale of pesticides by uk companies that they knew full well that it was to be used for the production of chemical weapons even if that was not its officially stated purpose i personally don t think that letting iran conquer iraq would have been a good thing for that matter neither do i for the reasons you state it is the hypocrisy and claims the us did not help iraq that make me angry plus the fact that the usa seems to believe it has the right to interfere where is sees fit i e has an interest rather than a duty to intervene where it is required this is demonstrated by the failure of the us to do anything about east timor and the region is becoming destabilised the usa might have done something approaching the right thing given my reservations about the uncessary number of civillian casualites but for wholly the wrong reasons and after having a hand in creating the situation that in no way would affect the us later military action against iraq i did not suggest it would and it would be ridiculous to assert otherwise i was simply indicating the usa has previously aided iraq intel on manufacturing techniques or something of that nature no apparently data orginally from satellites although i doubt that iraq would have been given the raw data concerning troop concentrations aaron turner aaron minster york ac uk
alt.atheism	re death penalty gulf war long shamim zvonko mohamed sham cs arizona edu wrote bullshit in the gulf massacre of all ordnance used was smart the rest that s was just regular dumb ol iron bombs and stuff have you forgotten that the pentagon definition of a successful patriot launch was when the missile cleared the launching tube with no damage or that a successful interception of a scud was defined as the patriot and scud passed each other in the same area of the sky and of the that was the smart stuff hit again try to follow me here that means of this smart arsenal missed i used to have full figures on this including the tons of bombs dropped and the number of cluster bomblet munitions used i had heard the of the laser guided weapons hit which is an unprecedented rate of success of the iron weapons hit again unprecedented the following is a rough estimate but this means of the tons of bombs dropped by us aircraft around tons missed i m not sure what proportion of this was dropped of baghdad rather than troop concentrations in iraq and kuwait much of the tonnage dropped was cluster munitions as were all the mrls rounds and many of the artillery rounds napalm and fuel air explosives were also used remember how we were told that weapons of mass destruction such as fae were very naughty indeed
alt.atheism	re death penalty gulf war long mark mccullough mccullou snake cs wisc edu wrote this figure is far below all the other figures i have seen if it is indeed accurate then how do you explain the discrepancy between that figure and other figures from international organizations most figures i have seen place the hit ratio close to which is still far higher than your or does your figure say a bomb missed if the plane took off with it and the bomb never hit the target regardless of whether or not the bomb was dropped such methods are used all the time to lie with statistics answering the last sentence claimed that they had a success rate of without initially explaining until pressed that this meant that of the aircraft came back having dropped their bombs somewhere regardless of whether they had hit the intended target or indeed anything al all aaron turner
alt.atheism	re death penalty gulf war long mark mccullough mccullou snake cs wisc edu wrote prove it i have a source that says that to date the civilian death count er excuse me i mean collateral damage is about i have never seen any source that was claiming such a figure please post the source so its reliability can be judged this figure would not simply be deaths by bombing but also death later from disease the sewer system of baghdad was deliberately targeted and starvation i believe but when i get a copy of the latest research in june or july that this was the figure proposed in the census bureau report on the matter the report was suppressed and the cb attempted to sack the author of the report but failed due to procedural technicality the author is now on permanent leave aaron turner
alt.atheism	re gulf war selling arms mark mccullough mccullou snake cs wisc edu wrote i heard about the arms sale to saudi arabia now how is it such a grave mistake to sell saudi arabia weapons or are you claiming that we shouldn t sell any weapons to other countries straightforward answer please saudi arabia is an oppressive regime that has been recently interfering in the politcs of newly renunified yemen including assasinations and border incursions it is entirely possible that they will soon invade unluckily for yemen it is not popular in the west as they managed to put aside political differences during reunification and thus the west has effectively lost one half north as a client state aaron turner
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article c v mr z darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes deleted stuff from andrew wrt which atheist myth is bill re to andrew the myth to which i refer is the convoluted counterfeit athiests have created to make religion appear absurd counterfeit atheists hmmmm so we re just cheap knock offs of the true atheists religion demonstrates itself to be absurd constantly personally if someone asks i m happy to point out how this is so rather than approach religion including christainity in a rational manner and debating its claims as the are stated atheists concoct outrageous parodies and then hold the religious accountable for beliefs they don t have what is more accurately oxymoric is the a term like reasonable atheist man what is your pill wrt atheists if you re going to make such contentious statements back them up at least read news time and time again we ve hashed out the beliefs various religous doctrines hold try debating reasonably with someone who makes a statement like more accurately oxymoric is the a term like reasonable atheist then take a look at the responses we ve given tammy seem pretty reasonable nay even polite to me accusations of myths a flyin here s a good example of of what i said above read the post again i said acoording to which means i am referring to christian doctrine as i understand it if i am speaking for myself you ll know it my purpose in posting was to present a basic overview of christain doctrines since it seemed germane i saw your reference to according to in the original article then you do such an excellent job of spewing dogma that well the implication was pretty clear if wrong in this case jeez a misunderstanding let it go more statements to wrap this thing up if you read my post with same care as read the faq we wouldn t be having this conversation if you had written your post with the same as care as the faq has been we wouldn t be having this discussion gems about evidence deleted yes human reason does always come back to the existence of god we re having this discussion are we not jeez do i have to point this out to you this discussion is not all instances of human reason therefore your implication is false well this is interesting truth is to be determined by it politically correct content granted it s extremely unhip to be a wasp male and anything european is contemptable but i thought this kind of dialogue the purpose of a a was to get at the truth of things but then i remember the oxymoron reasonalble atheist and i understand how lame can you get who said anything about the truth of things read the faq very carefully please then report your findings about where it says the purpose of a a is to find the truth of things and stop impressing your own misguided image of atheists upon us it s really pissing me off bill
alt.atheism	discordian subgenius books addresses etc as requested here are some addresses of sources of bizarre religious satire and commentary plus some bijou book reviewettes loompanics unlimited po box port townsend wa usa publishers of one of the most infamous mail order book catalogue in the world anarchism discordianism libertarianism cryogenics money making legal and illegal privacy and security self defense and all kinds of other stuff that keeps christians awake at nights the church of the subgenius po box dallas tx usa the original end times church for post human mutants a high temple for scoffers mockers and blasphemers be one of the few to board the x ist saucers in and escape space god jhvh s stark fist of removal j r bob dobbs god of sales is waiting to take your money and ordain you magazines sick audio cassettes and assorted offensive cynisacreligious material periodic lists of addresses of pink religious cults and contact points for the world wierdo network expect a slow response to mail only conspiracies are well organized you will eventually get what you pay for if you give them some slack counter productions po box london se rl uk a uk source of obscure books a wide ranging selection surrealism anarchism subgenius discordianism robert anton wilson lovecraftian horror cyberpunk forteana political and social commentary wilhelm reich orgone tech obscure rock music sf and so on send an sae and maybe a bribe they need your money and ask for a catalogue tell them mathew sent you i ve ordered from these folks three or four times now and they re about as fast and efficient as you can expect from this sort of operation forbidden planet various sites in the uk in particular along london s new oxford street just down the road from tottenham court road tube station mass market oddness subgenius robert anton wilson loompanics and of course huge quantities of sf not a terribly good selection but they re in the high street reviewette loompanics greatest hits isbn x loompanics a selection of articles picked from the books in loompanics catalogue subjects include christian dispensationalism how right wing christians encouraged the cold war satanic child abuse myths religion and censorship plus lots of anarchist and libertarian stuff situationism computers and privacy and so on guaranteed to contain at least one article that ll offend you like for example the interview with bradley r smith the holocaust revisionist a good sampling of stuff in a coffee table book of course whether you want to leave this sort of stuff lying around on your coffee table is another matter quote the fundamentalists leap up and down in apoplectic rage and joy their worst fantasies are vindicated and therefore or so they like to think their entire theology and socio political agenda is too meanwhile teen age misanthropes and social misfits murder their enemies classmates families friends even complete strangers all because they read one of anton lavey s cooks or listened to one too many ac dc records the born agains are ready to burn again and not just books this time reviewette the book of the subgenius j r dobbs the subgenius foundation isbn simon schuster described by rolling stone as a sick masterpiece for those who can still laugh at the fact that nothing is funny anymore the official bible of the subgenius church containing the sacred teachings of j r bob dobbs instant answers to everything causes catalytic brain cell loss in seconds the secret of total slack how to relax in the safety of your delusions and pull the wool over your own eyes nuclear doom and other things to laugh at quote he has been known to answer questions concerning universal truths with screams with suggestive silence by peeing down his pants leg his most famous sermon was of cosmic simplicity bob standing on the stage with his hands in his pockets smoking looking around and saying nothing heated arguments still rage among the monks often erupting into fatal duels as towhether the master consulted his wristwatch during this divine period of grace reviewette high weirdness by mail rev ivan stang isbn x simon schuster an encyclopedia of wierd organizations you can contact by mail space jesuses christian vs christian ufo contactees new age saps creationists flat earthers white supremacist churches plus yawn csicop sceptical enquirer and stuff like that not just a list of addresses though as each kook group is ruthlessly mocked and ridiculed with sarcastic glee if you like alt atheism s flame wars this is the book for you made me laugh until my stomach ached revised edition due some time in the next year or two sample entry entertaining demons unawares southwest radio church po box oklahoma city ok your watchman on the wall another flagellating genuflecting fundamentalist outfit their booklet entertaining demons unawares exposes the star wars e t dungeons dragons saturday morning cartoon satanic connection in horrifying detail left out smurfs though i especially liked the bit about wonder woman s antichrist origins keep in mind that once you send for anything from these people you ll be on their mailing list for life reviewette the abolition of work bob black isbn loompanics a selection of bob black s painfully witty and intelligent anarchist tracts collected into book form if i were this good i d be insufferable probably the only thought provoking political book that s fun to read quote babble about the wages of sin serves to cover up the sin of wages we want rights not rites sex not sects only eros and eris belong in our pantheon surely the nazarene necrophile has had his revenge by now remember pain is just god s way of hurting you reviewette principia discordia malaclypse the younger isbn loompanics the infamous discordian bible reprinted in its entirety and then some yes you could ftp the online copy but this one has all the pictures explains absolutely everything including the law of fives how to start a discordian cabal and instructions for preaching discordianism to christians quote a discordian is required during his early illumination to go off alone partake joyously of a hot dog on a friday this devotive caremony to remonstrate against the popular paganisms of the day of catholic christendom no meat on friday of judaism no meat of pork of hindic peoples no meat of beef of buddhists no meat of animal and of discordians no hot dog buns reviewette natural law or don t put a rubber on your willy robert anton wilson isbn x loompanics the author of the illuminatus trilogy rails against natural law natural morality objective reality and other pervasive myths witty and thought provoking work from someone who actually seems to know an argument from a hole in the ground quote since theological propositions are scientifically meaningless those of us of pragmatic disposition simply won t buy such dubious merchandise maybe remotely there might be something in such promotions as there might be something in the talking dogs and the stocks in arabian tapioca mines that w c fields once sold in his comedies but we suspect that we recognize a con game in operation at least we want to hear the dog talk or see the tapioca ore before we buy into such deals all of the books mentioned above should be available from counter productions in the uk or directly from the subgenius foundation or loompanics unlimited mathew what do you mean i am anyway dreamed i laid a toaster daddy caught me in the act can you take it devo
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article r voinnr q lynx unm edu cfaehl vesta unm edu chris faehl writes the myth to which i refer is the convoluted counterfeit athiests have created to make religion appear absurd counterfeit atheists hmmmm so we re just cheap knock offs of the true atheists they must be theists in disguise in any event we don t need to create religious parodies just look at some actual religions which are absurd mand now mdeep thoughts m mby jack handey m mif you go parachuting and your parachute doesn t open and your friends are all watching you fall i think a funny gag would be to pretend you were swimming m
alt.atheism	atheism survey i am doing research on atheism part of which involves field research here on the net the following is a survey directed towards all readers of this group intended to get data about the basis of atheistic belief i would seriously appreciate it if each and every one of you would fill it out and mail it back to me at mtabbott unix amherst edu first of all i ve tried to structure questions that can be answered in a variety of ways with varying amounts of detail it s possible to give succinct answers to most everything but there s enough here to keep most of you typing for hours i m sure as much detail as you want to give me i mean it is great but it s also important for me to have as broad a base of individuals as possible so even minimal responses are far better than nothing it s a short survey if you just answer the questions without elaboration secondly i hope some of the questions don t come off as obnoxious i know that phrases like what would convince you of the existence of god imply that i am a seminary student intent on proving you all to be ignorant godless heathens in fact i m not too sure about the existence of a higher power myself so my use of god is a question of locution rather than ideology it s easier than just repeating a deity or higher power every time also i tend to use a lot of anthropological buzzwords like belief system although i know some of you might contend that you don t have any beliefs but are skeptical towards everything i understand but you know what i mean think of such buzzwords as abbreviations for the rather unweildy phrases required to get the precise idea across lastly thanks please fill out as much as you can in as much detail as you can and send them to me my research and i thank you where would you place your beliefs on the spectrum theism agnosticism weak atheism strong atheism feel free to elaborate on your specific beliefs in what if any religious tradition were you raised did you ever believe in the existence of a god several of the following questions presume that the answer to this is yes if you ve always been an atheist or at least never a theist you may have to modify the question answer somewhat how serious was your your family s involvement how and when did you start to doubt the tenets you were raised to believe how and when did your final break with your beliefs if any occur i realize that this is often more of an ongoing process than an event per se whatever the case just describe it in whatever detail you wish what contact with other atheists have you had before and after and during your conversion to atheism certainly your involvement with alt atheism counts how have net discussions affected your beliefs to what extent do you think other atheists have influenced you in your beliefs did you come by your beliefs through discussion through independent means or by some combination of the two or other means are you convinced that your beliefs were acquired through wholly rational means proofs of the non existence of god etc or was it perhaps at least in part through other means alienation from mainstream religion etc to what extent do you feel you understand the universe through your beliefs what phenomena of the universe and of human existence anything from physical phenomena to the problem of the existence of evil in human affairs do you feel are adequately dealt with by your beliefs and where are they lacking as an explanatory method what would it take for you to question or change your beliefs what would convince you of the existence of god what would convince you of the plausibility of god s existence and so forth how dynamic are your beliefs are they constantly changing have they stayed more or less the same for some time are you involved in a career or education in science to what extent do you think science has influenced your beliefs issac asimov claimed that science was the new secular religion and that scientists are in a very real sense the new priesthood do you see the pursuit of science as having a quasi religious base or even a religious element this survey is intended to get data from a broad range of individuals but also to help me narrow down the field to a small group of people whose ideas and histories could be very useful to me would you be willing to have me on the basis of this survey write you to find out more about you and your beliefs if not fine your filling out the survey alone is great thanks again feel free to contact me if you have any questions about what i m doing with this data or if you have anything to say in addition to what i ve asked about above mark abbott mtabbott unix amherst ed
alt.atheism	re americans and evolution now with free ockham s razor inside sorry about the delay in responding due to conference paper deadline panic in article qsnqqinn nr senator bedfellow mit edu bobs thnext mit edu robert singleton writes in article apr dcs warwick ac uk simon dcs warwick ac uk simon clippingdale writes alarming amounts of agreement deleted i made my statement about ockums razor from my experiences in physics thanks for info in baysian statistics very interesting and i didn t know it before i follow your proof but i have one questions we have two hypotheses h and hg the latter is more complicated which by definition means p h p hg that complicated isn t in fact where p h p hg comes from it s more the other way around it s from p h p hg p hg where g is the complement of g and by axiom p anything so p hg so p h p hg in a sense hg is necessarily more complicated than h for any h and g so i may be splitting hairs but what i m trying to say is that irrespective of subjective impressions of how complicated something is p h p hg holds with equality if and only if p hg as you point out it s a very simple matter to show p x h p x hg p h x p hg x and thus h is to be preferd to hg now to say that h is as consistent with the data as hg is to say p x h p x hg can you elaborate some on this well p x a p x b means that x is as likely to be observed if a is operative as it is if b is operative this implies that observing x does not provide any useful information which might allow us to discriminate between the respective possibilities that a and b are operative the difference reduces to the difference between the unknown and unhelpful prior probabilities p a and p b p x a p x b p a x k p a and p b x k p b where k p x a p x p x b p x so a and b are equally consistent with the data in that observing x doesn t give any pointers as to which of a or b is operative in the particular case where a h and b hg however we know that their prior probabilities are ordered by p h p hg although we don t know the actual values and it s this which allows us to deploy the razor to throw out any such hg also in the real world it isn t as clear cut and dry it seems to me we can t always determine whether the equality p x h p x hg is true that s certainly true but the particular point here was whether or not a divine component actually underlies the prevalence of religion in addition to the memetic transmission component which even the religious implicitly acknowledge to be operative when they talk of spreading the word now it seems to me as i ve said that the observed variance in religious belief is well accounted for by the memetic transmission model but rather less well if one proposes a divine component in addition since i would expect the latter to conspire against wide variance and even mutual exclusion among beliefs thus my personal feeling is that p x hg isn t even equal to p x h in this case but is smaller h is memetic transmission g is divine component x is the variance among beliefs but i happily acknowledge that this is a subjective impression btw my beef with your baysian argument was not a mathematical one i checked most of your work and didn t find an error and you seem very careful so there probably isn t a math mistake i think the mistake is philosophical but just to make sure i understand you can please rephrase it in non technical terms i think this is a reasonable request i always try to look for ways of explaining physics to non physicist i m not a baysian statistician nor any type of statistician so this would be very helpful not that i m a statistician as such either but the idea is that both theism and atheism are compatible with all of the read my observations to date however theism of the type with which i am concerned also suggests that for instance prayer may be answered people may be miraculously healed both are in principle amenable to statistical verification and that god s may generally intervene in measurable ways this means that these regions of the space of possible observations which i loosely termed appearances of god s have some nonzero probability under the theistic hypothesis and zero under the atheistic since there is only so much probability available for each hypothesis to scatter around over the observation space the probability which theism expends on making appearances of god s possible must come from somewhere else i e other possible observations all else being equal this means that an observation which isn t an appearance of god s must have a slightly higher probability under atheism than under theism the bayesian stuff implies that such observations must cause my running estimate for the probability of the atheistic hypothesis to increase with a corresponding decrease in my running estimate for the probability of the theistic hypothesis sorry if that s still a bit jargonesque but it s rather difficult to put it any other way since it does depend intimately on the properties of conditional probability densities and particularly that the total area under them is always unity an analogy may or may not be helpful say that hypothesis a is the coin is fair and that b is the coin is unfair two headed i ve used a and b to avoid confusion with h heads and t tails then p h a total p t a p h b total p t b the observations are a string of heads with no tails this is compatible with both a fair coin a and a two headed coin b however the probability expended by a on making possible the appearance of tails even though they don t actually appear must come from somewhere else since the total must be unity and it comes in this case from the probability of the appearance of heads say our running estimates at time n are e n a and e n b the observation x n at time n is another head x n h the estimates are modified according to p h a e n a e n a e n a m p h and p h b e n b e n b e n b m p h now we don t know p h the actual prior probability of a head but the multiplier for e a is half that for e b this is true every time the coin is tossed and a head is observed thus whatever the initial values of the estimates after n heads we have n e n a m e a and n e n b m e b and since e k a e k b at any time k you can show that m and thus m hence the estimate for the fair coin hypothesis a must decrease at each trial and that for the two headed coin hypothesis b must increase even though both hypotheses are compatible with a string of heads the loose analogy is between unfair coin and atheism and between fair coin and theism with observations consistent with both a tail which would falsify unfair coin is analogous to an appearance of god s which would falsify atheism i am not claiming that the analogy extends to the numerical values of the various probabilities just that the principle is the same constant observation of no evidence for gods if evidence for them is at all possible under the respective theisms constantly increases the notional estimated probability that they don t exist it s important to draw a distinction between theism that could be supported or not supported by evidence and theism that can t given a theism for which evidence is in principle not possible it doesn t make sense to say lack of evidence supports the contrary view quite so but this type of theism is what i might call the g in the hg in terms of our ockham s razor discussion and i d bin it on those grounds so it depends upon your conception of this god if it s a conception like zeus who happened to come down to earth to play quite frequently then i agree with you lack of evidence for this conception of god is evidence that it does not exist but if your conception of god is one that does not make falsifiable predictions see below on falsifiable predictions then i disagree lack of evidence does not support a disbelief the hypotheses don t have to be falsifiable and indeed in my model the theism isn t falsifiable i used the phrase should obverse given any specific x theism does not make the prediction p x ht that s why i used the word should theism makes no predictions about any specific event i can only say i believe that god did such and such after such and such happens or i believe god will do such and such but for any given x i can never a priori say p x ht i can not even say this for the set of all x or some x this is what don t like about your use of probability we also have no way of assigning these probabilities i hold science to positivistic criteria if someone cannot tell me how to measure even in principle p x h then probability is not applicable to hypothesis h such is the case when h ht theistic and ha atheistic for example p x ha p x ha p ha what is p ha how do i measure it you don t have to we don t need in the above analogy to know any prior probabilities to deduce that the updating multiplier for the fair coin hypothesis is less than unity and that the corresponding multiplier for the two headed coin hypothesis is greater than unity you don t need to know the initial values of the running estimates either it s clear that after a large number of observations p fair coin approaches zero and p two headed coin approaches unity all you need to know is whether p x ha is larger than p x ht for observed x and this follows from the assumptions that there are certain events rendered possible not necessary under ht which are not possible under ha and all else is equal baysian statistics relies upon a series of observations but what if the hypothesis isn t amenable to observation and even for statements that are amenable to observation some observations are not relevant a sequence of observations must be chosen with care i m curious to know what types of observations x x you have in mind concerning theism and atheism any observations you like it really doesn t matter nor affect the reasoning provided that there are some possible observations which would count as appearances of god s examples of this might be a demonstration of the efficacy of prayer or of the veracity of revelation but any statement about p x h for general x still counts as a prediction of h if the theism in question ht says that prayer may be answered or that miracles may happen see my interpretation quoted again above of what god exists means then this is a prediction p x ht for such x it s what distinguishes it from the atheist hypothesis ha which predicts that this stuff does not happen p x ha for such x theism does not make the claim that p x ht for such x or i should say that my theism doesn t maybe i was too quick to say we had a common language you said that by the existence of god you mean the notion that the deity described by the bible and by christians does interact with the universe as claimed by those agents i agreed with this however i must be careful here i believe this i m not making any claims maybe i should have changed does to can there is an important shift of emphasis but any way since i only have a belief i cannot conclude p x ht for such x ok we ll downgrade does interact to may interact which would actually be better since does interact implies a falsifiability which we both agree is misplaced i don t think my theism makes predictions maybe i m not understanding what you mean by prediction could you explain what you mean by this word i ll explain but bear in mind that this isn t central all i require of a theism is that it not make the prediction appearances of god s will never happen as does atheism before somebody points out that quantum mechanics doesn t make this prediction either the difference is that qm and atheism do not form a partition predictions include such statements as prayer is efficacious implying if you do the stats you will find that prayer is efficacious or prayer is not efficacious or verily i say unto you this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled i don t think we have any problems of misunderstanding here persistent observation of this stuff not happening consistent with ht though it may be is more consistent with ha as explained in the bayesian stats post even if ht god exists is unfalsifiable that s no problem for my argument other than that you have to let the number of observations go to infinity to falsify it asymptotically btw i do not consider an argument that requires an infinite number of observations as valid or rather that part of the argument is not valid we as existing humans can never make an infinite number of measurments and any conclusion that reilies on this i don t accept as valid that s fine i don t claim that theism is false merely that the finite number of observations available to me so far suggest that it is and that as i continue to observe the suggestion looks better and better renormalization stuff deleted in the bayesian stats post i assumed that theism was indeed unfalsifiable in a finite number of observations here s the relevant quote the important assumption is that there are some observations which are compatible with the theist hypothesis and not with the atheist hypothesis and thus would falsify atheism these are what i called appearances of god s but this need not be taken too literally any observation which requires for its explanation that one or more gods exist will count all other observations are assumed to be compatible with both hypotheses this leaves theism as unfalsifiable and atheism as falsifiable in a single observation only by such appearances of god s here is my problem with this for something to be falsifiable it must make the prediction that x should not be seen if x is seen then the hypothesis has been falsified now atheism is a word in oposition to something theism a theism aserts a belief and an atheism aserts a disbelief so there are certain atheisms that are certainly falsifiable just as there are certain theisms that are falsifable e g if my theism asserts the world is only years old and that god does not decieve then this has been falsified however the atheism that is in oposition to an unfalsifiable theism is also unfalsifiable i could be wrong on this statment contd i think you are an appearance of god s is sufficient to falsify atheism whereas in general the corresponding theism is unfalsifiable i ll think more about it until then here is a general question suppse x were unfalsifiable is not x also unfalsifiable no by way of a counterexample let x the coin is fair or more accurately so that not x makes sense the two sides of the coin are different this is unfalsifiable by tossing the coin even a string of heads is consistent with a fair coin and you have to go to an infinite number of tosses to falsify x in the limit its converse is falsifiable and is falsified when at least one head and at least one tail have appeared this is partly what s wrong with you baysian argument which requires observations x x n to be made there are simply no such observations that have a truth value in relation to the statement god exists now by use of your symmetry argument i can understand why someone would say since the statement god does not exist makes no predictions i will choose not to believe it but none the less this would be founded on a type of faith or if you don t like the word faith insert belief for which there is no falsifiable evidence instead i ll assume you meant god exists up there at the highlight but by our agreed definition of exists the statement makes predictions as i said above although it isn t falsifiable in a finite number of observations actually i mean god does not exist makes no predictions oops sorry mea culpa the truth of this statment actually depends upon which god you are refering to but i can think of some conceptions of god for which it is true but once again i m open to the posibility that i could be wrong so give me some examples of predictions of the statment god does not exist here is one that i can think of if true then there would be no healing or miricles but this can in principle never be determined one way or the other there are cases in which people seem to recover and are healed without the help of a doctor and for no known reason these situations do in fact happen they are consistent with a theistic hypothesis but in no way support such a hypothesis we agree here they are not inconsistent with an atheistic hypothesis i can t think of one prediction from god does not exist that isn t of this type but i might be missing something the rapture will not happen on october said rapture would have falsified atheism to my satisfaction had it happened although its failure to happen does not of course falsify any theisms other than those which specifically predicted it no phenomenon which requires the existence of one or more gods for its explanation will ever be observed that about sums the whole thing up bob singleton bobs thnext mit edu cheers simon simon clippingdale simon dcs warwick ac uk department of computer science tel university of warwick fax coventry cv al u k
alt.atheism	re some thoughts healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes tammy see maddi i trimmed it healy well you re going to have to practice but you re getting the hang of it soon we re going to have to give you a new nickname try these on for size tammy lucky seven healy tammy pass the falafel healy tammy r us healy tammy learning by doing healy maddi never a useful post hausmann maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california kids please don t try this at home remember i post professionally
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes mand now mdeep thoughts m mby jack handey m mif you go parachuting and your parachute doesn t open and your friends are all watching you fall i think a funny gag would be to pretend you were swimming m you fall if it opens too gravity it s not just a good idea it s the law dean kaflowitz
alt.atheism	re religion as cause was islamic authority over women scott d sauyet ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu wrote the same works for the horrors of history to claim that christianity had little to do with the crusades or the inquisition is to deny the awesome power that comes from faith in an absolute what it seems you are doing twisting the reasonable statement that religion was never the solitary cause of any evil into the unreasonable statement that religion has had no evil impacts on history that is absurd scott until this paragraph i would willingly amend my earlier statements since your point s are well made and generally accurate this last part though slips into hyperbole since i ve discussed my objections to such generalizations before i really don t feel i need to do it again if you haven t seen those posts ask maddi she saves everything i write bill
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes in article r idi e fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes so now you are saying that an islamic bank is something other than bcci would you care to explain why it was that when i said i hope an islamic bank is something other than bcci you called me a childish propagandist yes sure because the only obvious reason anyone would make the jump from bcci to islamic bank is by associating islamic banking with muslim ownership but in this case i said i hoped that bcci was not an islamic bank and the only reason one would generalize from a given islamic bank to all islamic banks is through a stereotype one x is bad therefore all x s are bad but in this case i said i hoped that bcci was not an islamic bank next think you know there is a bosnia on tap but in this case i said i hoped that bcci was not an islamic bank jon
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article bb dba i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes in article r j ak fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes deletion so mr conner is bobby mozumder a myth a performing artist a real moslem a crackpot a provocateur you know everything and read all minds why don t you tell us as a side note isn t it telling that one cannot say for sure if bobby mozunder is a firm believer or a provocateur what does that say about religious beliefs i think that s an insightful comment especially when at the same time we have people like bill projector conner complaining that we are posting parodies jon
alt.atheism	re societally acceptable behavior in article c ws s ns news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes in r ioh t fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article c qgm dl news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes this doesn t seem right if i want to kill you i can because that is what i decide sounds as though you are confused between what i want and what i think is morally right jon what do you mean would your idea still apply if i said i think it is ok to kill you because that is what i decided what i mean is what i said what i want does not automatically translate into what i think is right that is it does not translate that way for me if you reply that i think it is ok to kill you because that is what i decided then what that means is that for you what i want does translate into what i think is right it just doesn t translate that way for me jon
alt.atheism	re societal basis for morality in article apr cnsvax uwec edu nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye writes you asked me to look over here but i was on my way back anyway reply to cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb if morals come from what is societally accepted why follow that what right do we have to expect others to follow our notion of societally mandated morality pardon the extremism but couldn t i murder your brother and say that i was exercising my rights as i saw them was doing what felt good didn t want anyone forcing their morality on me or i don t follow your morality i believe that morality is subjective each person is entitled to his own moral attitudes mine are not a priori more correct than someone elses this does not mean however that i must judge another on the basis of his rather than my moral standards while he is entitled to believe what his own moral sense tells him the rest of society is entitled to pass laws spelling out punishments for behavior that is offensive to the majority why your last statement why by which authority most criminals do not see their behavior as moral the may realize that it is immoral and not care they are thus not following their own moral system but being immoral for someone to lay claim to an alternative moral system he must be sincere in his belief in it and it must be internally consistent why your last statement why are these things necessary and believe me a belief in terrorism can be both sincere and frighteningly consistent some sociopaths lack an innate moral sense and thus may be incapable of behaving morally while someone like hitler may have believed that his actions were moral we may judge him immoral by our standards holding that morality is subjective does not mean that we must excuse the murderer trouble is this would sound just fine coming from someone like hitler too i do not mean any comparison or offence david try substituting the social minority of your choice for sociopath hitler and murderer no logical difference someone like you vs someone like hitler zero sum frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	re faith and dogma reply to tgk cs toronto edu todd kelley in light of what happened in waco i need to get something of my chest faith and dogma are dangerous agreed a philosopher cannot be a christian because a philosopher can change his mind whereas a christian cannot due to the nature of faith and dogma present in any religion it is hard for me to understand but quite a few professional scientists and philosophers are theists sure religion has many good qualities it encourages benevolence and philanthropy but also intolerance and superstition i m not sure that in the balance it is not detrimental wouldn t it be nice if everyone were a secular humanist sure would david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes i m not in a position to say since i know nothing about the situation that does not in my estimation qualify me as having my head up my ass bob i never accused you of having your head up your ass it takes me quite some time in dealing with someone before accusing them of having their head up their ass i was accusing the original poster benedikt i believe of being so impaired after insult gregg resorts to lies in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes could you maybe flesh it out just a bit or did i miss the full grandeur of it s content by virtue of my blinding atheism you may be having difficulty seeing the light because you have your head up your ass i suggest making sure this is not the case before posting again that s was the original answer while it does not say that he has the head necessarily up its ass it would be meaningless and pointless if it was not insinuated benedikt
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article r fpv p horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes deletion point morals are in essence personal opinions usually ideally well founded motivated such but nonetheless personal the fact that a real large lot of people agree on some moral question sometimes even for the same reason does not make morals objective it makes humans somewhat alike in their opinions on that moral question which can be good for the evolution of a social species and if a real large lot nice phrase of people agree that there is a football on a desk i m supposed to see a logical difference between the two perhaps you can explain the difference to me since you seem to see it so clearly rest deleted that s a fallacy and it is not the first time it is pointed out for one you have never given a set of morals people agree upon unlike a football further you conveniently ignore here that there are many who would not agree on tghe morality of something the analogy does not hold one can expect sufficiently many people to agree on its being a football while you have to give the evidence that only vanishing number disagrees with a set of morals you have to give further the above is evidence not proof proof would evolve out of testing your theory of absolute morals against competing theories the above is one of the arguments you reiterate while you never answer the objections evidence that you are a preacher benedikt
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics in article r jcinnt g lynx unm edu cfaehl vesta unm edu chris faehl writes correction hard atheism is a faith yes can be a faith like weak atheism we had that before benedikt
alt.atheism	re theism and fanatism was islamic genocide in article r sn r horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes theism is strongly correlated with irrational belief in absolutes irrational belief in absolutes is strongly correlated with fanatism deletion theism is correlated with fanaticism i have neither said that all fanatism is caused by theism nor that all theism leads to fanatism the point is theism increases the chance of becoming a fanatic one could of course argue that would be fanatics tend towards theism for example but i just have to loook at the times in history when theism was the dominant ideology to invalidate that conclusion that that is the basic mechanism behind it imo the influence of stalin or for that matter ayn rand invalidates your assumption that theism is the factor to be considered bogus i just said that theism is not the only factor for fanatism the point is that theism is a factor gullibility blind obedience to authority lack of scepticism and so on are all more reliable indicators and the really dangerous people the sources of fanaticism are often none of these things they are cynical manipulators of the gullible who know precisely what they are doing that s a claim you have to support please note that especially in the field of theism the leaders believe what they say now some brands of theism and more precisely some theists do tend to fanaticism i grant you to tar all theists with this brush is bigotry not a reasoned argument and it reads to me like a warm up for censorship and restriction of religious freedom ever read animal farm that s a straw man and as usually in discussions with you one has to repeat it read what i have written above not every theism leads to fanatism and not all fanatism is caused by theism the point is there is a correlation and it comes from innate features of theism gullibility by the way is one of them and to say that i am going to forbid religion is another of your straw men interesting that you have nothing better to offer define irrational belief e g is it rational to believe that reason is always useful irrational belief is belief that is not based upon reason the latter has been discussed for a long time with charley wingate one point is that the beliefs violate reason often and another that a process that does not lend itself to rational analysis does not contain reliable information well there is a glaring paradox here an argument that reason is useful based on reason would be circular and argument not based on reason would be irrational which is it that s bogus self reference is not circular and since the evaluation of usefulness is possible within rational systems it is allowed your argument is as silly as proving mathematical statements needs mathematics and mathematics are therfore circular the first part of the second statement contains no information because you don t say what the beliefs are if the beliefs are strong theism and or strong atheism then your statement is not in general true the second part of your sentence is patently false counterexample an axiomatic datum does not lend itself to rational analysis but is assumed to contain reliable information regardless of what process is used to obtain it i ve been speaking of religious systems with contradictory definitions of god here an axiomatic datum lends itself to rational analysis what you say here is a an often refuted fallacy have a look at the discussion of the axiom of choice and further one can evaluate axioms in larger systems out of which they are usually derived i exist is derived if you want it that way further one can test the consistency and so on of a set of axioms what is it you are trying to say compared the evidence theists have for their claims to the strength of their demands makes the whole thing not only irrational but antirational i can t agree with this until you are specific which theism to say that all theism is necessarily antirational requires a proof which i suspect you do not have using the traditonal definition of gods personal supernatural entities with objective effects on this world usually connected to morals and or the way the world works the affinity to fanatism is easily seen it has to be true because i believe it is nothing more than a work hypothesis however the beliefs say they are more than a work hypothesis i don t understand this can you formalise your argument person a believes system b becuase it sounds so nice that does not make b true it is at best a work hypothesis however the content of b is that it is true and that it is more than a work hypothesis testing or evaluating evidence for or against it therefore dismissed because b already believed says it is wrong a waste of time not possible depending on the further contents of b amalekites idolaters protestants are to be killed this can have interesting effects answer the question what the absolute set of morals is people agree on like they would agree on a football being a football benedikt
alt.atheism	re islamic authority over women in article c racm q darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes i can t recall anyone claiming that god makes anyone act a particlar way i think that you re attempting to manufacture a contradiction a world creator god does the moment it creates the world and to sayi that you can t recall anyone is even below your usual standard of a arguing my argument is based on quite usual theistic assumptions namely god is perfect god is all knowing god sets the rules the rules don t work for whatever reason because of its omniscience the god has known it in advance deletion to say that something defined contadictorily cannot exist is really asking too much you would have existence depend on grammar all you can really say is that something is poorly defined but that in itself is insufficient to decide anything other than confusion of course it is not a question of grammar it is a question of modelling has been discussed in the wonderful time when you were not posting to this group when a is contradictorily defined a does not point to an instance in reality unless there is more information in the definition of a that allows me to find it somehow however when the contradictory attribute is said to be essential ie has not got that attribute not the a i am looking for i can conclude that a does not exist your point that there are better reasons for the phenomenon of belief than the object of belief may lead to a rat s nest of unnecessary complexity i think i know what you re implying but i d like to see your version of this better alternative just the same that s quite like i predict coins falling predicted happened heads tails tails tails heads tails heads tails i take and dismiss the rest because of the unnecessary complexity the other evidence causes for an easy to understand explanation of why humans believe in gods read manwatching by desmond morris benedikt
alt.atheism	re death penalty gulf war long jbrown batman bmd trw com writes i don t regret the fact that sometimes military decisions have to be made which affect the lives of innocent people but i do regret the circumstances which make those decisions necessary and i regret the suffering caused by those decisions i m afraid i m going to have to kill you don t worry though as a loving christian i guarantee that i will regret the fact that i have to kill you although i won t regret the actual killing if we hadn t intervened allowing hussein to keep kuwait then it would have been appeasement right but did you ever hear anyone advocate such a course of action or are you just setting up a strawman i m not setting up a strawman at all if you want to argue against the war then the only logical alternative was to allow hussein to keep kuwait false dichotomy diplomatic alternatives including sanctions were ineffective that s because they weren t even attempted but what about those who didn t support hitler s dreams of conquest it s not as if they democratically voted for all his policies the nsdap got in the elections of and that was the last chance the german people got to vote on the matter they suffered along with the rest why does this bother you so much you want to know why it bothers me that thousands of innocent people were maimed or killed by bombing at the end of ww when it was far from clear that such bombing was necessary the world is full of evil and circumstances are not perfect many innocents suffer due to the wrongful actions of others it it regretable but that s the way it is and why is it that way who set things up to be that way this was happening before the gulf war why didn t we send in the bombers to east timor why aren t we sending in the bombers now probably because we re not the saviors of the world we can t police each and every country that decides to self destruct or invade another no just the ones that have oil or the ones that look like they might make a success of communism nor are we in a strategic position to get relief to tibet east timor or some other places i don t see that getting un forces to east timor is any harder than getting them to iraq tibetan people are rounded up tortured and executed amnesty international recently reported that torture is still widespread in china why aren t we stopping them in fact why are we actively sucking up to them by trading freely with them tell me how we could stop them and i ll support it i for one do not agree with the present us policy of sucking up to them as you put it i agree that it is deplorable fine write to your congressman and to president clinton china s status as most favoured nation comes up for renewal in june point out that the us shouldn t be offering favourable trading terms to such a despicable regime i doubt anything will happen clinton s keener on trade sanctions against europe unbelievable comments about the rodney king case deleted the media is not totally monolithic even though there is a prevailing liberal bias programs such as the macneil lehrer news hour try to give a balanced and fair reporting of the news there are even conservative sources out there if you know where to look hurrah for rush any idea how many kill files you just ended up in i an atheist am arguing against killing innocent people you a supposed christian are arguing that it s ok to kill innocent people so long as you get some guilty ones as well hardly i didn t say that it s a good thing tm to kill innocent people if the end is just unfortunately we don t live in a perfect world and there are no perfect solutions if one is going to resist tyranny then innocent people on both sides are going to suffer and die i didn t say it is ok it is unfortunate but sometimes necessary the ends justify the means eh you having criticised moral relativism in the past are now arguing that i am in no position to judge the morality of allied actions at the end of the war you certainly are not in such a position if you are a moral relativist the same tired old misunderstanding moral relativism means that there is no objective standard of morality it doesn t mean you can t judge other people s morals christ on a bike how many times have we tried to hammer that into your head where s your christian love where s your absolute morality oh how quick you are to discard them when it suits you as ivan stang would say jesus would puke one day i will stand before jesus and give account of every word and action even this discourse in this forum i understand the full ramifications of that and i am prepared to do so i don t believe that you can make the same claim obviously not as i am an atheist i don t think you d get on with jesus though he was a long haired lunatic peace nik was he not and btw the reason i brought up the blanket bombing in germany was because you were bemoaning the iraqi civilian casualties as being so deplorable yet blanket bombing was instituted because bombing wasn t accurate enough to hit industrial military targets in a decisive way by any other method at that time but in the gulf war precision bombing was the norm so the point was why make a big stink about the relatively few civilian casualties that resulted in spite of precision bombing when so many more civilians proportionately and quantitatively died under the blanket bombing in ww right unfortunately for you it turned out that my opinions on the matter were entirely consistent in that i condemned the bombing of dresden too i think you re being a bit glib with your explanation of the blanket bombing policy too you make it sound as though we were aiming for military targets and could only get them by destroying civilian buildings next door as i understand it that is not the case we aimed deliberately at civilian targets in order to cause massive damage and inspire terror amongst the german people civilians suffer but less civilians suffered in this war than any other iany other in history oh come on with wars like the falklands fresh in people s minds that sort of propaganda isn t going to fool anyone the stories of hundreds of thousands of iraqi civilian dead is just plain bunk yes bunk the us lost servicemen in ww over four years and the majority of them were directly involved in fighting yes and what about the millions of casualties the russians suffered it s hardly surprising the us didn t lose many men in ww given that you turned up late mathew
alt.atheism	re gulf war selling arms jbrown batman bmd trw com writes mathew i agree this it seems is the crux of your whole position isn t it that the us shouldn t have supported hussein and sold him arms to fight iran i agree and i agree in ruthlessly hunting down those who did or do but we did sell arms to hussein and it s a done deal now he invades kuwait so do we just sit back and say well we sold him all those arms i suppose he just wants to use them now too bad for kuwait no unfortunately sitting back and letting things be is not the way to correct a former mistake destroying hussein s military potential as we did was the right move but i agree with your statement reagan and bush made a grave error in judgment to sell arms to hussein but it s still happening that s the entire point only last month john major hailed it as a great victory that he had personally secured a sale of arms to saudi arabia the same month we sold jet fighters to the same indonesian government that s busy killing the east timorese it s all very well to say oops we made a boo boo better clean up the mistake but the us and uk keep making the same mistake they do it so often that i can t believe it s not deliberate this suspicion is reinforced by the fact that the mistake is an extremely profitable one for a decrepit economy reliant on arms sales so it s really not the gulf war you abhor so much it was the u s s and the west s shortsightedness in selling arms to hussein which ultimately made the war inevitable right no i thought both were terrible mathew
alt.atheism	re gulf war was re death penalty was re political atheists mccullou snake cs wisc edu mark mccullough writes i looked back at this and asked some questions of various people and got the following information which i had claimed and you pooh poohed the us has not sold iraq any arms what about the land mines which have already been mentioned other countries like kuwait information is hard to prove you are claiming that the us sold information prove it information is hard to prove almost certainly if the us did sell information then that fact is classified and you can t prove it oh very neat dismiss everything i say unless i can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt something which you yourself admit i can never prove to your satisfaction thanks i ll stick to squaring circles mathew
alt.atheism	re gulf war and peace niks jbrown batman bmd trw com writes the problem with most peace niks it they consider those of us who are not like them to be bad and unconscionable i would not have any argument or problem with a peace nik if they held to their ideals and stayed out of all conflicts or issues especially those dealing with the national defense but no they are not willing to allow us to legitimately hold a different point of view they militate and many times resort to violence all in the name of peace yawn another right wing wasp imagining he s an oppressed minority perhaps camille paglia is right after all i would not have any argument or problem with a peace nik if they stayed out of all conflicts or issues i bet you wouldn t you d love it but what makes you think that sitting back saying nothing about defense issues and letting people like you make all the decisions is anything to do with their ideals mathew
alt.atheism	re strong weak atheism acooper mac cc macalstr edu turin turambar me department of utter misery writes did that faq ever got modified to re define strong atheists as not those who assert the nonexistence of god but as those who assert that they believe in the nonexistence of god in a word yes mathew
alt.atheism	re who has read rushdie s the satanic verses perry dsinc com jim perry writes anyway since i seem to be the only one following this particular line of discussion i wonder how many of the rest of the readership have read this book what are your thoughts on it i bought a copy of the satanic verses when there was talk of the british government banning it there s nothing interests me in a book more than making it illegal however it s still sitting on my shelf unread perhaps i ll get round to it soon i ve still got a pile of lem bulgakov and zamyatin to go through i don t find nearly enough time to read in fact there are far more interesting things to do than i can ever find time for how anyone ever manages to be bored is beyond me if i didn t have to sleep maybe i could manage it mathew atheism anti virus software for the mind
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr bnr ca rashid writes in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger wrote i have already made the clear claim that khomeini advocates views which are in contradition with the qur an and have given my arguments for this this is something that can be checked by anyone sufficiently interested khomeini being dead really can t respond but another poster who supports khomeini has responded with what is clearly obfuscationist sophistry this should be quite clear to atheists as they are less susceptible to religionist modes of obfuscationism don t mind my saying this but the best example of obfuscation is to condemn without having even your most basic facts straight if you want some examples go back and look at your previous posts where you manage to get your facts wrong about the fatwa and khomeini s supposed infallibility why shouldn t i mind it sounds as if you are proceeding with just the sort of obfuscation you have accused me of i always preceeded my statements with it is my understanding that now i have made my claim clear with regard to the issue of both the twelve imams and with khomeini s supposed claim of infalibility after hearing your seemingly more knowledgable claim that khomeini made no such claim regarding himself i have withdrawn that portion of my statement regarding that claim however i have received no such response regarding the infallibility of the twelve imams there is nothing obfuscationist about my claims which are always made clearly i have received no such clear response regarding the twelve imams but rather abstruse references to unusual metaphysical natures and other such opaque concepts often used by people to camoflage the baselessness of their positions particularly in matters of theology these are just the sorts of concepts used by christian churches the perverting of their religion as salaam a laikum alaikum wassalam gregg
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr bnr ca rashid writes in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger wrote i think many reading this group would also benefit by knowing how deviant the view as i ve articulated it above which may not be the true view of khomeini is from the basic principles of islam so that the non muslim readers of this group will see how far from the simple basics of islam such views are on the face of them and if they are not in contradiction with the basics of islam how subtle such issues are and how it seems sects exist in islam while they are explicitly proscribed by the qur an discussing it here is fine by me shall we start a new thread called say infallibility in islam and move the discussion there i think this should be illuminating to all let me make a first suggestion when arabic words especially technical ones become of use let us define them for those especially atheists to whom they may not be terribly familiar please also note that though i did initially refer to khomeini as a heretic for what i understood to be a claim rejected by you since of personal infallibility i withdraw this as a basis for such a statement i conditionally retain this reference in regard to khomeini s advocacy of the thesis of the infallibility of the so called twelve imams which is in clear conflict with the qur an in that it places the twelve imams in a category of behavior and example higher than that of the muhammad in that the qur an shows that the prophet was clearly fallible as well as it appears given your abstruse theological statment regarding the natures of the twelve imams placing them in a different metaphysical category than the remainder of humanity with the possible exception of muhammad something which verges on the sin of association as salam a laikum alaikum wassalam gregg
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article bb b i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes in article r fpv p horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes deletion point morals are in essence personal opinions usually ideally well founded motivated such but nonetheless personal the fact that a real large lot of people agree on some moral question sometimes even for the same reason does not make morals objective it makes humans somewhat alike in their opinions on that moral question which can be good for the evolution of a social species and if a real large lot nice phrase of people agree that there is a football on a desk i m supposed to see a logical difference between the two perhaps you can explain the difference to me since you seem to see it so clearly rest deleted that s a fallacy and it is not the first time it is pointed out it s not a fallacy note the if if a supermajority of disinterested people agree on a fundamantal value we re not doing ethics yet benedikt then what is the difference between that and those people agreeing on a trivial observation for one you have never given a set of morals people agree upon unlike a football further you conveniently ignore here that there are many who would not agree on tghe morality of something the analogy does not hold i have however given an example of a value people agree on and explained why people will agree that their freedom is valuable i have also stated that such a value is a necessary condition for doing objective ethics the if assertion above and that is what i m talking about there isn t a point in talking about ethics if this can t be agreed one can expect sufficiently many people to agree on its being a football while you have to give the evidence that only vanishing number disagrees with a set of morals you have to give i m not doing morals ethics if we can t get past values as i say the only cogent objection to my freedom example is that maybe people aren t talking about the same thing when they answer that it is valuable maybe not and i want to think about this some especially the implications of its being true further the above is evidence not proof proof would evolve out of testing your theory of absolute morals against competing theories garbage that s not proof either the above is one of the arguments you reiterate while you never answer the objections evidence that you are a preacher name that fallacy frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	re studies on book of mormon on tue apr gmt cfairman leland stanford edu carolyn jean fairman said cjf agrino enkidu mic cl andres grino brandt asks about mormons cjf although i don t personally know about independent sudies i do know cjf a few things cjf he writes there are some mention about events places or historical persons later discovered by archeologist cjf one of the more amusing things in the bom is a claim that a cjf civilization existed in north america aroun where the mystical plates cjf were found not only did it use steel and other metals but it had cjf lots of wars very ot no one has ever found any metal swords or cjf and traces of a civilization other than the native americans i was talking to the head of the archeology dept once in college and the topic of mormon archeology came up it seems that the mormon church is or was big on giving grants to archeologists to prove that the native americans are really the lost tribe of israel and other such bunk the archeologists would shake their head knowingly while listening to them take the grant and go off to do real archeology anyway ed mccreary o edm twisto compaq com if it were not for laughter there would be no tao
alt.atheism	science and theories as per various threads on science and creationism i ve started dabbling into a book called christianity and the nature of science by jp moreland a question that i had come from one of his comments he stated that god is not necessarily a religious term but could be used as other scientific terms that give explanation for events or theories without being a proven scientific fact i think i got his point i can quote the section if i m being vague the examples he gave were quarks and continental plates are there explanations of science or parts of theories that are not measurable in and of themselves or can everything be quantified measured tested etc mac michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody can explain everything to anybody g k chesterton
alt.atheism	re age of reason was who has read rushdie s on wed apr gmt sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik said ks this is the story of kent the archetype finn that lives in the ks bay area and tried to purchase thomas paine s age of reason this ks man was driving around to staceys to books inc to well cleanlighted ks place to daltons to various other places ks when he asked for this book the well educated american book store ks assistants in most placed asked him to check out the thriller section ks or then they said that his book has not been published yet but they ks should receive the book soon in some places the assistants bluntly ks said that they don t know of such an author or that he is not ks a well known living author so they don t keep copies of his books ks such is the life and times of america years after the revolution sigh now i don t feel so bad searching for a copy in bookstores has been a habit of mine for at least two years now i spend a lot of time browsing through bookstores new and and used and i ve not once seen a copy now i know all i do is pick up a phone and order the darned thing but come on this is america and he s one of the founding fathers and no one carries his books sure you can find common sense but i think that s because it s required reading for most colleges i did find one hole in the wall bookstore where the owner said that they usually carry one or two copies but that they were currently out i haven t been back since so i don t know if he was telling the truth or not sigh ed mccreary o edm twisto compaq com if it were not for laughter there would be no tao
alt.atheism	re science and theories in article c u bq j news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes the examples he gave were quarks and continental plates are there sounds like more of the same gods were used to describe almost everything in the past as we come to understand the underpinnings of more and more the less we credit to a god now the not so well understood elements at least by the author includes quarks and tectonic drift i guess that s better than describing the perceived patterns of stars in the sky as heroes being immortalized by the gods kinda sounds like old earth creation it seems that life did indeed evolve from a common ancestor what caused that initial common ancestor are we going to hear another debate on causeless events explanations of science or parts of theories that are not measurable in and of themselves or can everything be quantified measured tested etc mac michael a cobb frank doss the above stated words are my opinions and do not reflect the opinions attitudes or policies of my employer or any affilliated organizations
alt.atheism	re theism and fanatism was islamic genocide in article bb d c i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes in article r tqo ook horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes theism is strongly correlated with irrational belief in absolutes irrational belief in absolutes is strongly correlated with fanatism deletion theism is correlated with fanaticism i have neither said that all fanatism is caused by theism nor that all theism leads to fanatism the point is theism increases the chance of becoming a fanatic one could of course argue that would be fanatics tend towards theism for example but i just have to loook at the times in history when theism was the dominant ideology to invalidate that conclusion that that is the basic mechanism behind it imo the influence of stalin or for that matter ayn rand invalidates your assumption that theism is the factor to be considered bogus i just said that theism is not the only factor for fanatism the point is that theism is a factor that s your claim now back it up i consider your argument as useful as the following belief is strongly correlated with fanaticism therefore belief is a factor in fanaticism true and utterly useless note this is any belief not belief in gods tiring to say the least i have backed it up read the first statement i have read it conspicuous by its absence is any evidence or point the latter is the fallacy of the wrong analogy saying someone believes something is hardly an information about the person at all saying someone is a theist holds much more information further the correlation between theists and fanatism is higher than that between belief at all and fanatism because of the special features of theistic belief truth by blatant assertion evidence gullibility blind obedience to authority lack of scepticism and so on are all more reliable indicators and the really dangerous people the sources of fanaticism are often none of these things they are cynical manipulators of the gullible who know precisely what they are doing that s a claim you have to support please note that especially in the field of theism the leaders believe what they say if you believe that you re incredibly naive you frank o dwyer are living in a dream world i wonder if there is any base of discussion left after such a statement as a matter of fact i think you are ignorant of human nature even when one starts with something one does not believe one gets easily fooled into actually believing what one says to give you the benefit of the doubt prove your statement the onus of proof is on you sunshine what makes you think that theist leaders believe what they say especially when they say one thing and do another or say one thing closely followed by its opposite the practice is not restricted to theism but it s there for anyone to see it s almost an epidemic in this country just for instance if it is harder for a camel to pass thru the eye of a needle why is the catholic church such a wealthy land owner why are there churches to the square inch in my country now some brands of theism and more precisely some theists do tend to fanaticism i grant you to tar all theists with this brush is bigotry not a reasoned argument and it reads to me like a warm up for censorship and restriction of religious freedom ever read animal farm that s a straw man and as usually in discussions with you one has to repeat it read what i have written above not every theism leads to fanatism and not all fanatism is caused by theism the point is there is a correlation and it comes from innate features of theism no some of it comes from features which some theism has in common with some fanaticism your last statement simply isn t implied by what you say before because you re trying to sneak in innate features of all theism the word you re groping for is some bogus again not all theism as is is fanatic however the rest already gives backup for the statement about the correlation about fanatism and theism and further the specialty of other theistic beliefs allows them to switch to fanatism easily it takes just a nifty improvement in the theology truth by blatant assertion gullibility by the way is one of them no shit sherlock so why not talk about gullibility instead of theism since it seems a whole lot more relevant to the case you have as opposed to the case you are trying to make because there is more about theism that the attraction to gullible people causing the correlation and the whole discussion started that way by the statement that theism is meaningfully correlated to fanatism which you challenged indeed i did as i recall i asked for evidence what is the correlation of which you speak and to say that i am going to forbid religion is another of your straw men interesting that you have nothing better to offer i said it reads like a warm up to that that s because it s an irrational and bogus tirade and has no other use than creating a nice them us split in the minds of excitable people such as are to be found on either side of church walls blah blah blah i am quite well aware that giving everyone their rights protects me better from fanatics than the other way round of course other people are always fanatics never oneself your wish to slur all theists seems pretty fanatical to me it is quite nice to see that you are actually implying a connection between that argument and the rise of fanatism so far it is just another of your assertions so you can do it define irrational belief e g is it rational to believe that reason is always useful irrational belief is belief that is not based upon reason the latter has been discussed for a long time with charley wingate one point is that the beliefs violate reason often and another that a process that does not lend itself to rational analysis does not contain reliable information well there is a glaring paradox here an argument that reason is useful based on reason would be circular and argument not based on reason would be irrational which is it that s bogus self reference is not circular and since the evaluation of usefulness is possible within rational systems it is allowed o k it s oval it s still begging the question however and though that certainly is allowed it s not rational and you claiming to be rational and all another of your assertions no proof no evidence just claims hey i learned it from you did i do good at the risk of repeating myself and hearing we had that before we didn t hear a refutation before so we re back deal with it you can t use reason to demonstrate that reason is useful someone who thinks reason is crap won t buy it you see that is unusually weak even for you the latter implies that my proof depends on their opinion somehow who does not accept that there are triangles won t accept pythagoras wow that s an incredible insight i don t have to prove them wrong in their opinion it is possible to show that their systems leave out useful information respectively claims unreliable or even absurd statements to be information totally circular and totally useless their wish to believe makes them believe things are judges by their appeal and not by their information it makes you feel good when you believe that may be good for them but it contains zillions of possible pitfalls from belief despite contrary evidence to the bogus proofs they attempt truth by blatant assertion i ve seen as many bogus proofs of the non existence of gods as i have of their existence rational systems by the way does not mean that every data has to come from logical analysis the point is that the evaluation of the data does not contradict logic it easily follows that such a system does not allows to evaluate if its rational in itself yes it is possible to evaluate that it is rational in a system that is not rational by the fallacies of that system but since the validity of the axioms is agreed upon that has as little impact as the possibility of a demon ala descartes this just doesn t parse sorry so far it just a matter of consistency i use ratiional arguments to show that my system is consistent or that theirs isn t the evaluation of the nor this predictions does not need rationality it does not contradict however your argument is as silly as proving mathematical statements needs mathematics and mathematics are therfore circular anybody else think godel was silly stream of consciousness typing what is that supposed to mean the first part of the second statement contains no information because you don t say what the beliefs are if the beliefs are strong theism and or strong atheism then your statement is not in general true the second part of your sentence is patently false counterexample an axiomatic datum does not lend itself to rational analysis but is assumed to contain reliable information regardless of what process is used to obtain it i ve been speaking of religious systems with contradictory definitions of god here an axiomatic datum lends itself to rational analysis what you say here is a an often refuted fallacy have a look at the discussion of the axiom of choice and further one can evaluate axioms in larger systems out of which they are usually derived i exist is derived if you want it that way further one can test the consistency and so on of a set of axioms what is it you are trying to say that at some point people always wind up saying this datum is reliable for no particular reason at all example i am not dreaming nope there is evidence for it the trick is that the choice of an axiomatic basis of a system is difficult because the possibilities are interwoven one therefore chooses that with the least assumptions or with assumptions that are necessary to get information out of the system anyway i d like to see this alleged evidence one does not need to define axioms in order to define an evaluation method for usefulness the foundation is laid by how one feels at all that s not how one feels about it i see you have no irrational beliefs but then fanatics never do do they compared the evidence theists have for their claims to the strength of their demands makes the whole thing not only irrational but antirational i can t agree with this until you are specific which theism to say that all theism is necessarily antirational requires a proof which i suspect you do not have using the traditonal definition of gods personal supernatural entities with objective effects on this world usually connected to morals and or the way the world works imo any belief about such gods is necessarily irrational that does not mean that people who hold them are in principle opposed to the exercise of intelligence some atheists are also scientists for example they don t use theism when doing science or it wouldn t be science please note that subjective data lend themselves to a scientific treatment as well they just prohibit formulating them as objective statements ergo nothing is objective fair enough the affinity to fanatism is easily seen it has to be true because i believe it is nothing more than a work hypothesis however the beliefs say they are more than a work hypothesis i don t understand this can you formalise your argument person a believes system b becuase it sounds so nice that does not make b true it is at best a work hypothesis however the content of b is that it is true and that it is more than a work hypothesis testing or evaluating evidence for or against it therefore dismissed because b already believed says it is wrong a waste of time not possible depending on the further contents of b amalekites idolaters protestants are to be killed this can have interesting effects peculiar definition of interesting but sure now show that a belief in gods entails the further contents of which you speak why aren t my catholic neighbours out killing the protestants for example maybe they don t believe in it maybe it s the conjunction of b asserts b and jail kill dissenters that is important and the belief in gods is entirely irrelevant it certainly seems so to me but then i have no axe to grind here the example with your neighbours is a fallacy that your neighbours don t says little about others and there were times when exactly that happened nope it s not a fallacy it just doesn t go to the correlation you wish to see and tell me when it is not irrelevant why are such statements about amalekites and idolaters in the holy books please note that one could edit them out when they are not relevant anymore because gods don t err what does that say about that message excuse me the holy books and how come we had theists saying genocides ordered by god are ok a god is the easiest way to excuse anything and therefore highly attracting to fanatics not to mention the effect interpretation by these fanatics can have on the rest of the believers happens again and again and again a god is neither the easiest way to excuse anything nor the only way frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article apr cnsvax uwec edu nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye writes reply to frank d s uucp frank o dwyer the problem for the objectivist is to determine the status of moral truths and the method by which they can be established if we accept that such judgements are not reports of what is but only relate to what ought to be see naturalistic fallacy then they cannot be proved by any facts about the nature of the world this can be avoided in at least two ways by leaving the good undefined since anyone who claims that they do not know what it is is either lying or so out of touch with humanity as to be undeserving of a reply if the good is undefined undefinable but you require of everyone that they know innately what is right you are back to subjectivism no and begging the question see below by defining the good solely in terms of evaluative terms ditto here an evaluative statement implies a value judgement on the part of the person making it again incorrect and question begging see below at this point the objectivist may talk of self evident truths pretty perceptive that prof flew but can he deny the subjectivist s claim that self evidence is in the mind of the beholder of course by denying that subject object is true dichotomy please explain how this helps i don t see your argument i don t see yours it seems to rest on the assertion that everything is either a subject or an object there s nothing compelling about that dichotomy i might just as well divide the world into subject object event it even seems more sensible causation for example is an event not a subject or an object furthermore if subject object were true dichotomy i e everything is either a subject or an object then is that statement a self evident truth or not if so then it s all in the mind of the beholder according to the relativist and hardly compelling add to that the fact that the world can quickly be shoved in its entirety into the subjective category by an idealist or solipsist argument and that we have this perfectly good alternate set of categories subject object event which can be reduced to subject object quality without any logical difficulty and why yes i guess i am denying that self evident truths are all in the mind of the beholder if not what is left of the claim that some moral judgements are true all of it if nothing then no moral judgements are true this is a thing that is commonly referred to as nihilism it entails that science is of no value irrepective of the fact that some people find it useful how anyone arrives at relativism subjectivism from this argument beats me this makes no sense either flew is arguing that this is where the objectivist winds up not the subjectivist furthermore the nihilists believed in nothing except science materialism revolution and the people i m referring to ethical nihilism the subjectivist may well feel that all that remains is that there are some moral judgements with which he would wish to associate himself to hold a moral opinion is he suggests not to know something to be true but to have preferences regarding human activity and if those preferences should include terrorism that moral opinion is not true likewise if the preferences should include noterrorism that moral opinion is not true why should one choose a set of preferences which include terrorisim over one which includes noterrorism oh no reason this is patently absurd and also not the position of the subjectivist as has been pointed out to you already by others ditch the strawman already and see my reply to mike cobb s root message in the thread societal basis for morality i ve responded over there btw i don t intend this as a strawman but as something logically entailed by relativism really any ethical system where values are assumed to be unreal it s different to say relativists say than relativism implies frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article minster york ac uk cjhs minster york ac uk writes are you saying that their was a physical adam and eve and that all humans are direct decendents of only these two human beings then who were cain and able s wives couldn t be their sisters because a e didn t have daughters were they non humans genesis and the days of adam after he begat seth were eight hundred years and he begat sons and daughters felicitations chris ho stuart yeah but these were not the wives the wives came from nod apparently a land being developed by another set of gods brian
alt.atheism	re room for metaphor i can and do take religious writings as a metaphor for life i do this with all sorts of fiction from beowolf to deep space nine the idea is to not limit yourself to one book screen out the good stuff from what you read and to remember that it is all just a story you sound buddist to me brian
alt.atheism	re the universe and black holes was re years in article apr iastate edu kv iastate edu warren vonroeschlaub wrote in article r hj inn c gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes well suppose a probe emitting radiation at a constant frequency was sent towards a black hole as it got closer to the event horizon the red shift would keep increasing the period would get longer and longer but it would never stop an observer would not observe the probe actually reaching the event horizon the detected energy from the probe would keep decreasing but it wouldn t vanish exp t never quite reaches zero that s kind of what i meant to be more precise given any observer in any single position outside the event horizon would that observer ever in any way be able to detect the probe having crossed the event horizon yes unless the observer is at rest with respect to the singularity at infinite distance away but an observer on a close approach to the bh will see the particle go in in finite time peter don t forget to sing they say there s a heaven for those who will wait some say it s better but i say it ain t i d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints the sinners are much more fun only the good die young
alt.atheism	re asimov stamp battin cyclops iucf indiana edu laurence gene battin writes apart from the suggestion that appeared in the letters column of skeptical inquirer recently has there been any further mention about a possible asimov commemorative stamp if this idea hasn t been followed up does anyone know what needs to be done to get this to happen i think that its a great idea should we start a petition or something i m sure all the religious types would get in a snit due to asimov s atheism do we have any atheists on stamps now mark schnitzius schnitzi eola cs ucf edu university of central florida
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics in article timmbake mcl timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes nah i will encourage people to learn about atheism to see how little atheists have up their sleeves whatever i might have suspected is actually quite riddle me this if a god s exist why on earth should we grovel why on earth should we give a damm at all what evidence do you have that if such a creature s exist it deserves anything beyond mild admiration or sheer hatred for what it they have done in the past whichever god s you care to pick that is assuming any records of their actions are correct religon offers a bliss bubble of self contained reality which is seperate from the physical world any belief system can leave you in such a state and so can drugs god s are not a requirement only if you remove such useless tappestry can you build a set of morals to build a society upon it is that or keep on exterminating those who don t believe or converting them eric new viruses right to life virus won t allow you to delete a file regardless of how old it is if you attempt to erase a file it requires you to first see a counselor about possible alternatives
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article c rekj y darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes james felder spbach lerc nasa gov wrote logic alert argument from incredulity just because it is hard for you to believe this doesn t mean that it isn t true liars can be very pursuasive just look at koresh that you yourself cite this is whole basis of a great many here rejecting the christian account of things in the words of st madalyn murrey o hair face it folks it s just silly why is it okay to disbelieve because of your incredulity if you admit that it s a fallacy bill i suppose for the same reason that you do not believe in all the gods why should any be any different i use the same arguments to dismiss koresh as i do god tell me then why do you not believe that koresh is the son of god by logic it is equally possible that koresh is jesus reborn adda wainwright does dim atal y llanw o eczcaw mips nott ac uk o mae sig ma ar werth
alt.atheism	re death penalty was re political atheists in article c rlyz mt darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes this is fascinating atheists argue for abortion prove it i am an atheist it doesn t mean i am for or against abortion defend homosexuality as a means of population control an obvious effect of homosexuality is non procreation that unlike your statement is a fact please prove that a homosexuality is defended as means of population control b being atheist causes you to hold these beliefs i defend homosexuality because a what people do with their bodies is none of my business b i defend the equal rights of all humans do you insist that the only values are biological define values prove your statement something is contardictory it cannot exist which in this case means atheists i suppose prove your statement electrons are waves electrons are particles i believe in both i have physical proof of both i have no proof of god tm only an ancient book that is not indicative of the existence of a being with omnipotence or omnipresence and by your own argument christians don t exist i would like to understand how an atheist can object to war an excellent means of controlling population growth or to capital punishment i m sorry but the logic escapes me and why just capital punishment what is being questioned here the propriety of killing or of punishment what is the basis of the ecomplaint first of all your earlier statements have absolutely nothing to do with your question why did you post them to show that athiests besides not existing your view are more humane than christians other religions secondly i am very much for the control of population growth the logic that you cannot grasp indicates ignorance of contraception but of course this is outlawed sometimes literally by religion since if it can t create more followers it will die i bill adda wainwright does dim atal y llanw o eczcaw mips nott ac uk o mae sig ma ar werth
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell jsn is jeremy scott noonan
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell in article apr ncsu edu aiken news ncsu edu wayne nmi aiken writes jsn psuvm psu edu wrote you blashephemers you will all go to hell for not believing in god be prepared for your eternal damnation did someone leave their terminal unattended again holy temple of mass slack ncsu edu my used underwear consumption is legal tender in po box bbs countries raleigh nc warning i hoard pennies bob probably not the jesus freak s post is probably jsn psuvm penn state is just loaded to the hilt with bible bangers i use to go there vomit and it was the reason i left they even had a group try to stop playing rock music in the dining halls one year cuz they deemed it satanic kampus krusade for khrist people run the damn place for the most part except the liberal arts departments they are the safe havens wdb v rock music in the dining t
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article aa therose pdx com alan olsen p f n z fidonet org alan olsen writes from alan olsen p f n z fidonet org alan olsen subject some thoughts date wed apr rh from house helios usq edu au ron house rh newsgroups alt atheism rh organization university of southern queensland rh bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first i want to start right out and say that i m a christian it rh i know i shouldn t get involved but rh bit deleted the book says that jesus was either a liar or he was crazy a modern day koresh or he was actually who he said he was rest of rant deleted this is a standard argument for fundies can you spot the falicy the statement is arguing from the assumption that jesus actually existed so far they have not been able to offer real proof of that existance i just thought it necessary to help defend the point that jesus existed guys jesus existed if he didnt then you have to say that socrates didnt exist cuz he like jesus has nothing from his hands that have survived only plato and others record his existance many others record jesus existance including the babylonian talmud sorry guys the argument that jesus may not have existed is a dead point now he did whether he was god or whether there is a god is a completely different story however most of them try it using the very flawed writings of josh mcdowell and others to prove it but those writers use very flawed sources if they are real sources at all some are not when will they ever learn to do real research instead of believing the drivel sold in the christian bookstores rh righto dan try this one with your cornflakes rh the book says that muhammad was either a liar or he was rh crazy a modern day mad mahdi or he was actually who he rh said he was some reasons why he wouldn t be a liar are as rh follows who would die for a lie wouldn t people be able rh to tell if he was a liar people gathered around him and rh kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing how his rh son in law made the sun stand still call me a fool but i rh believe he did make the sun stand still rh niether was he a lunatic would more than an entire nation rh be drawn to someone who was crazy very doubtful in fact rh rediculous for example anyone who is drawn to the mad rh mahdi is obviously a fool logical people see this right rh away rh therefore since he wasn t a liar or a lunatic he must have rh been the real thing nice rebutal alan
alt.atheism	re christian morality is in article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes the fact is god could cause you to believe anything he wants you to but think about it for a minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you or because they wanted to love you there s a difference between believing in the existence of an entity and loving that entity god could show me directly that he exists and i d still have a free choice about whether to love him or not so why doesn t he kevin anthoney kax cs nott ac uk don t believe anything you read in sig files
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by theism evidence to benedikt roseneau in article qv at fb horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes the information of that is invariant under your child being a son or a daughter and singing about santa claus wasn t your argument that there has to be more more than what more than we assume which is what exactly a most of the people i debate disagree with my premises hardly debate otherwise your favorite point that we sense so it hs to be there has been challenged more than once when i did it you said good question and did not address it i ve addressed it your caricature is not my favourite point needless to say at length in a previous outing and am currently discussing it with eric rescorla b there s little point in responding the same points everywhere i do my best to give everyone the courtesy of a reply you still repeat that point i do curious since i believe that was the first time i ve ever made it not that repetition would imply much more than your seeming inability to understand you ask me the same question i ll give you the same answer especially when in this case i know the answer to be true i do my best to give everyone the courtesy of a reply but if everyone is making the same points and i m pushed for time then i try to respond what i believe are the strongest formulations of those points if that doesn t include your post tough this is usenet and life is tough all over c since there s a great deal of responses this isn t always feasible i do my best to honestly answer questions put to me you drop out of debates with some posters and continue with others you appear with the same issue every n months and start the dicussion at the beginning again i ve only debated this issue twice in a a and occasionally in t a the first was in response to simon clippingdale s positive assertion that disagreement about moral values inexorably acknowledges that morals are relative it doesn t now simon has dropped out of the debate for some time i take that to mean that he is either busy or bored with the topic i certainly do not accuse him of dishonesty do you d i can t always understand what you say neither can t i understand you all the time usually one asks what the other side means usually one does usually you re clear but sometimes you aren t and i ask you what you mean other times you seem to get extremely uptight and i feel that i m debating against line noise sometimes i get tired and sometimes i have other things i d rather do again this is usenet and life is tough all over you re going to have to deal with it e you re starting to get personally insulting i may not even put your name in the hat in future that s supposed to be a threat no that s a simple statement and an assertion that i am not answerable to those who offer me baseless insults for example those who accuse me of lying about my personal beliefs while also complaining that i don t answer their questions like that you what you sense is evidence for the sensed to be there if only everything would be so easy what almost everyone senses is evidence for the sensed to be there because to all intents and purposes it is there we had that argument for one your claim that everyone senses it is not founded and you have been asked to give evidence for it often and then the correct statement would be it is reason to assume that it is there unless evidence against it has been found i have no problem with the second statement i have provided an argument that almost everyone senses that freedom is valuable the only cogent objection to this came from jon livesey and was offered by some other people too essentially that people disagree about fuzzy concepts such as freedom it s a good point and i m thinking about it your trick is to say i feel a is not right and so do many i know therefore a is absolutely right it neglects the possibility that these people consider a to be right as an effect of the same process restricting the claim of its absoluteness to those who have been subject of that process in other words refutes it you make the ontological claim you have to prove it nonsense my trick is to say i feel that a is better than b and so does almost any disinterested person i ask best evidence is therefore that a really is better than b subject to the assumption that we can establish to our mutual satisfaction what we mean by a and b and that the resulting system of values is self consistent now get this really is better is an idealisation a fictional model in the same sense that real material existence is a fictional model it may or may not correspond to something true it is nonetheless a useful assumption far more useful than the equally assumed relativist trick to wit i feel that a is better than b and so does almost any disinterested person i ask however if even one person disagrees that a is better than b or if even one person dissents from mutually agreed definitions of a and b then it is the case that b is better than a for that person and nothing more can be said i say this is useless because it inexorably implies that a supermajority seeking to maximise a cannot morally take action against someone seeking to maximise b e g a terrorist to do that would be to claim that a supermajority s carefully considered morality would be better than the terrorist s which would of course be true but a no no for an ethical relativist to claim that ethical relativism implies anything else is simply weasel words and an example of compartmentalisation to rival anything in the world of religion for a similar argument i sense morality is subjective it does not hurt me to do things that are considered to be objectively wrong by others if you mean that you do things that some others consider objectively wrong and it turns out not to be the case for you of course this is possible it is neither evidence for subjectivism nor evidence against objectivism except sometimes in a pragmatic sense it serves as a counterexample for that everything that is subject to judgements is absolute and as long as you don t provide evidence for that there is something universally agreed upon there is no reason to believe your hypothesis i ve done this freedom with the proviso that i still have to answer jon s objection that fuzzy concepts like freedom have no objective meaning further in order to make morality absolute universal or objective you would have to show that it is independent of humans or the attributes above look quite misleading not really what evidence is there that anything exists independently of humans you ll be hard pressed to find any that isn t logically equivalent when applied to values an analogous set of premises would be premise some people believe that objectively speaking the shortest route from my house to a bar is through the main entrance of the estate and down the malahide road premise i checked it out and found that the shortest route from my which is much closer you would never deduce from these that there is no shortest route from my house to a bar yet that is seemingly how you derive your relativist claim using premises which are logically no different no morals are a matter of belief so far the people still believe that the shortest way is through the main entrance no agreement on belief here and in order to have an analogy you would have to show that there is a shortest way and that there is a method to convince everyone of that it is the shortest way indeed in other words your analogy works only when one assumes that your premises are right in the first place if not it is a fallacy and if this were an argument for objectivism you d be right it isn t though it s a demonstration that the argument you gave me is neither argument against objectivism nor argument for relativism your gimmick is to assume in the first place that values aren t real and to use this to prove that values aren t real in other words you beg the question against me frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	re gulf war and peace niks in article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes in article apr bmerh bnr ca dgraham bmers bnr ca douglas graham writes actually i rather like your idea perhaps the rest of the world should have bombed or maybe missiled washington when the us invaded nicaragua grenada panama vietnam mexico hawaii or any number of other places wait a minute doug i know you are better informed than that the us has never invaded nicaragua as far as i know we liberated grenada liberate is the way an invader describes an invasion including if i m not mistaken the iraqi liberation of kuwait never invaded nicaragua only with more word games can you say send in the marines so if you mean by the word invaded some sort of military action where we cross someone s border you are right out of but normally invaded carries a connotation of attacking an autonomous nation if some nation invades the u s virgin islands would they be invading the virgin islands or the u s so from this point of view your score falls to out of mexico panama oh good word games if you let the aggressor pick the words there s scarcely ever been a reprehensible military action what s a peace nik is that somebody who doesn t masturbate over guns n ammo or what is it supposed to be bad to be a peace nik no it s someone who believes in peace at all costs in other words a person who would have supported giving hitler not only austria and czechoslakia but poland too if it could have averted the war and one who would allow hitler to wipe all all jews slavs and political dissidents in areas he controlled as long as he left the rest of us alone that s a convenient technique much seen on alt atheism define those who disagree with you according to a straw man extreme that matches virtually nobody is it supposed to be bad to be a peace nik you ask well it depends on what your values are if you value life over liberty peace over freedom then i guess not but if liberty and freedom mean more to you than life itself if you d rather die fighting for liberty than live under a tyrant s heel then yes it s bad to be a peace nik very noble and patriotic i m sure the fine young americans who carpet bombed iraqi infantry positions from over the horizon destroyed iraq s sewer and water infrastructure from the safety of the sky or further or who bulldozed other iraqi infantry into their trenches or more importantly the commanders who ordered them to were just thrilled to be risking death if not risking it by much in the defense of the liberty of well wealthy kuwaitis can t have those oil fields under a tyrant s heel if that tyrant is antagonistic to us interests the problem with most peace niks it they consider those of us who are not like them to be bad and unconscionable i would not have any argument or problem with a peace nik if they held to their ideals and stayed out of all conflicts or issues especially those dealing with the national defense but no they are not willing to allow us to legitimately hold a different point of view having pigeon holed peace niks in this context people who disagree with me about the conduct of the gulf war into peace at all cost hitler supporting genocide abetting wimps you can now express righteous indignation when they refuse to fit this mold and question the conduct of the war on legitimate terms how dare they they militate and many times resort to violence all in the name of peace what rank hypocrisy yes hypocrisy indeed those violent peace niks care to list an example here all to stop we warmongers who are willing to stand up and defend our freedoms against tyrants and who realize that to do so requires a strong national defense wow instant s nostalgia of course peace nik itself is a s cold war derogatory term equating those who promote pacifism with godless pinko communists yes indeed i felt my freedoms mightily threatened by iraq jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in r n hfj horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp writes deletia in case anybody hadn t noticed frank and i are debating objective morality and seemingly hitting semantics secondly how can i refute your definition i can only point up its logical implications and say that they seem to contradict the usage of the word objective in other areas indeed by your definition an objective x is an oxymoron for all x i have no quibble with that belief other than that it is useless and that objective is a perfectly good word it may be that being a non native english speaker i ve misunderstood your usage of objective and tried to debate something you don t assert my apologies i m at a loss to imagine what you really do mean though how many ages can the universe have and still be internally self consistent i d be amazed if it was more than one how many different moral systems can different members of society have indeed single individuals in some cases and humanity still stick together begging the question people can have many opinions about the age of the universe and humanity can still stick together you are saying that the universe has a real age independent of my beliefs about it why wrong point the age of the universe has no direct effect on humanity s sticking power in the way the moral system of a society can have i m saying the universe has a real age because i see evidence for it cosmology astronomy and so on i say this age is independent of people s opinions of it because i know different people have a lot of different opinions in the matter yet empirical tests consistently seem to give roughly the same results the age of the universe like most scientific facts can be emirically verified through means that ll give the same result no matter who performs the testing albeit there are error bars that may be on the largish side this assumes that the universe has a real age or any kind of reality which doesn t depend on what we think i can t see how it does that put a creationist to the task of performing the tests and calculations see to it s he makes no blatant errors in measuring or calculating and the result of the test will be the same why should an extreme biblical creationist give a rat s ass about the means of which you speak because logically consistent empirical tests contradict their opinion if those tests were just my opinion then their own tests which would then be their opinion would contradict mine even if we conducted said tests in identical manner no they don t which i take as showing these tests have some validity beyond our opinion of them i ve heard of no way to verify morality in a consistent way much less compute the errors of the measurement care to enlighten me the same is true of pain but painkillers exist and can be predicted to work with some accuracy better than a random guess map the activity of nerves and neural activity if you mean physical pain you have a sharp point i ll give you that but you still haven t given me a way to quantify morality i wrote elsewhere that morality should be hypotheses about observed value we agree hypotheses however can change i hold that there is no ultimate hypothesis of morality towards which these changes could gravitate but that they could be changed in any way imaginable producing different results suitable for different tasks or purposes if a moral system makes a prediction it will be better if that can be tested better and worse are almost always defined in the context of a moral system your prediction will always be correct within that moral system what you need now is an objective definition of good and bad i wish you luck people s ideas about the age of object x are not objective you can have any idea you like and i can t stop you universae and their ages is another ballgame they are what they are and if you dislike some detail of them that s a problem with your opinion of them sure assume an objective reality and you get statements like this isn t that what you re doing when assuming an objectively real morality besides what exactly is provably wrong with my statement i claim that morality is an opinion of ours and as such subjective and individual if i m wrong then some more or less objectively real thing exists which you label objective morality can you back up this positive claim of existence can you back up your positive claim above no that s because it s an assumption i make the same assumption about values on the basis that there is no logical difference between the two and the empirical basis of the two is precisely the same claiming there is no objective morality is suddenly a positive claim besides i think i can lend some credence to my claim ponder different individuals both fully functional as human beings and members of society but yet with wildly different moral codes if morality was objective at least one should be way off base but yet hir incorrect morality seems to function fine how come as for producing these individuals it might be easiest to pick them from different societies say an islamic one and some polynesian matrilineal system for example if such still exist deletia testing for footballs on desks now take a look at morality see anything if so please inform me which way to look and why to look that particular way as opposed to some other get my drift no just look are you claiming never to know what good means one thing is good under some circumstances because we wish to achieve some goal for some reason other times we wish to do something else and that thing is no longer so clearly good at all some things are hard to make good because we d seldom if ever wish to achieve the sort of goal mass murder would lead one into still the aztecs were doing fine until the spaniards wiped them out i almost always know what good means sometimes i even know why i never claim this good is thereby fixed in stone immutable that s a simple matter of proving the track record of the scientific method i think it s great and should be applied to values i may be completely wrong but that s what i conclude as a result of quite an amount of thought yes me too and i ve tried a thing or two down that line it doesn t look good for objective values to me at all disclaimer it s great to be young and insane
alt.atheism	re asimov stamp in article schnitzi eustis schnitzi eustis cs ucf edu mark schnitzius writes battin cyclops iucf indiana edu laurence gene battin writes apart from the suggestion that appeared in the letters column of skeptical inquirer recently has there been any further mention about a possible asimov commemorative stamp if this idea hasn t been followed up does anyone know what needs to be done to get this to happen i think that its a great idea should we start a petition or something i m sure all the religious types would get in a snit due to asimov s atheism do we have any atheists on stamps now more to the point how long are atheists going to be insulted by the disgraceful addition of religious blah blah to our money and out pledge what s big noisy and has an iq of operation rescue
alt.atheism	re mottos to replace in dog we trust andrew hilmer hilmera storm cs orst edu wrote at the risk of beginning a cascade i ll start with a possibly cheesy good ol uhmericun our shield is freedom or considering what our government has been doing for the past years perhaps this would be more appropriate debt holy temple of mass slack ncsu edu my used underwear consumption is legal tender in po box bbs countries raleigh nc warning i hoard pennies bob
alt.atheism	re islamic genocide in article r ek uo fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article r ubl bd horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article r o a qe fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes noting that a particular society in this case the mainland uk has few religously motivated murders and few murders of any kind says very little about whether inter religion murders elsewhere are religiously motivated no but it allows one to conclude that there is nothing inherent in all religion or for that matter in catholicism and protestantism that motivates one to kill motivates or allows the christian bible says that one may kill under certain circumstances in fact it instructs one to kill under certain circumstances i d say the majority of people have a moral system that instructs them to kill under certain circumstances i do get your distinction between motivate and allow and i do agree that if a flavour of theism allows atoricities then that s an indictment of that theism but it rather depends on what the certain circumstances are when you talk about christianity or islam then at least your claims can be understood it s when people go to a general statement about theism that it falls apart one could believe in a god which instructs one to be utterly harmless for my part i conclude that something else is required i also happen to believe that that something else will work no less well without religion any easy them us will do and what does religion supply if not an easy them us not necessarily love thy neighbour does not supply a them us it demolishes it and my definition of religion is broader than my definition of theism as i have explained by insisting that even the murder of four labourers chosen because they were catholics and who had nothing to do with the ira by protestant extremists is not religously motivated i think what you are saying is that you simply will not accept any murder as being religiously motivated no what about that guy who cut off someone s head because he believed he was the devil incarnate that was religously motivated what about the protestant extremists who killed four catholic labourers that wasn t religiously motivated not in my opinion if they were doing it because of some obscure point of theology then yes but since all protestants don t do this nor do they elect extremists to do it for them it s just too broad too say religion did this i m saying that the causes are far more complex than that take away the religious element and you d still have the powerful motives of revenge and misguided patriotism you know when most catholics and protestants worldwide say stop the killing one might listen to that especially when you claim not to read minds also the murders ensuing from the fatwa on mr rushdie the inquisitions and the many religous wars what s so special about these exceptions isn t this all just a grab bag of ad hoc excuses for not considering some other murders to be religiously motivated what s the general principle behind all this the general principle is that it s fairly clear to me at least that religion is the primary motivator enabler whatever of these it s not nearly so obvious what s going on when one looks at ni apart from violence of course it s not an abstract argument northern irish protestants say we don t want to be absorbed into am officially catholic country now what are we supposed to do are we supposed to reply no that s only what you think you don t want mr o dwyer assures us that no matter what you say you want you really want something else you think the unionists wouldn t mind being absorbed into a non catholic country other than the uk of course it s a terrible thing to lose a mind maybe the word country is there for more than just kicks i certainly don t believe that the unionists are in it for god i think they wish to maintain their position of privilege i m still listening to what they say and you are still telling us your version of what they think you read minds and i don t you ve speculated on my motives often enough and you don t take my statements of my own beliefs at face value therefore your claim not to read minds has no credibility with me sorry i also note that you fail to answer my question it just looks to me very much like you have an axe to grind especially as you are indeed ignoring what most protestants say which is stop the killing the people you refer to are properly described as unionists not protestants as for their position of privilege what is that if not religion based it is based on politics bigotry and heartless extremism none of these things are synonymous with religion though there is certainly some overlap frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	re asimov stamp in article schnitzi eustis schnitzi eustis cs ucf edu mark schnitzius writes i m sure all the religious types would get in a snit due to asimov s atheism do we have any atheists on stamps now due to a discussion on this group some time ago the theists would more likely take an asimov quote out of context and paint him as the biggest bible thumpin god fearin atheist hatin christian you ever laid eyes on right up there with einstein bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	more best of a a rapture october what to do in case you miss the rapture i stay calm and do not panic your natural reaction once you realize what has just occurred is to panic but to do so is absolutely useless now if you had wanted to get right with god before the rapture you could have but you chose to wait now your only chance is to stay on this earth and to endure to the end of the tribulation but he that shall endure unto the end the same shall be saved matthew ii realize you are now living during the great tribulation the great tribulation is a seven year period starting from the time of the rapture until christ s second coming also know as the time of jacob s israel s trouble jere and daniel s seventieth week dan this period will be unparalleled in trouble and horror iii gather as many bibles as you can and hide them soon after the antichrist becomes the leader of the european community the revived roman empire bibles will be confiscated and owning a bible will be tantamount to treason the bible however will be your most valuable possession during the tribulation iv read the bible like you have never read it before in your life since all of your bibles may be confiscated even if you are careful it is imperative that you read the word until you memorize whole passages and can quote them it is especially important to read daniel luke matthew revelation and amos for these books describe the events you can expect to unfold before you v pray like you have never prayed before in your life pray until the power of god comes strongly upon you pray and pray and pray only by reading the word and praying will you gain the spiritual strength to be able to withstand the torture you may have to endure for the sake of christ vi do not take the mark at any cost even in fit means you and your loved ones die as martyrs after the antichrist becomes the leader of the european community he will institute a world economic system designed so that you cannot buy sell or eat unless you take his mark or the number of his name money will be useless and he causes all both small and great rich and poor free and slave to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast or the number of his name here is wisdom let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast for it is the number of a man his number is revelation the antichrist will implement the greatest slaughter in all of humanity think of the various ways people have been tortured and killed in the past such as the holocaust or maybe the crusades m you cannot even imagine the horror that will take place under the antichrist s rule it will be much worse than anything in history matt i saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of god and for the testimony which they held and a white robe was given to each of them and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer until both the number of the fellow servants and their brethren who would be killed as they were was completed revelation his targets will be jews and christians who do not worship his image or take the mark on their forehead or right hadn and i saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to jesus and for the word of god who had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on the hands revelation he will use every form of torture and humiliation in order to force you to renounce christ nor will he hesitate to use your loved ones against you even your children torturing and killing them in front of you so that you will be tempted to take the mark if you take the mark or worship the antichrist or his image however you will be consigned to the second death which is the lake of fire sung about so eloquently by johnny cash m you cannot be redeemed it is better to endure torture for a short while and gain eternal life then sic to endure eternal torment in the ring h h h h lake of fire if anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand he himself shall also drink the wine of the wrath of god which is poured out full strength into the cup of his indignation an sic he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the lamb revelation and probably in the presence of season ticket holders special hats given to the first at the stadium m vii set a plan in motion for survival although you may not be able to hide from the antichrist s government until the end of the tribulation all of the time you gain in hiding is important for your spiritual growth and strengthening since only those who are extremely strong in christ can suffer and die for his sake the first thing to do is move out of the city and into a rural or mountainous area for the antichrist s control will come last to the least populated areas take a good radio or tv with you so that you can stay attuned to events and discern the time schedule of the tribulation as you can see on the weather map heavy currents of tribulation will sweep into our area by daybreak expect delays on i outbound and perhaps school closings m store water and food because you will not be able to purchase anything without the mark water in lakes and streams will be polluted by radioactive waste from nuclear warfare and will eventually turn into blood get a good water filter m bring different types of clothing for all seasons as well as flashlights batteries generators and first aid supplies in short learn how to survive and live off the land as the pioneers did viii trust no one there will be secret agents everywhere spying for the antichrist s government be on the lookout perot supporters take note m ix watch for the antichrist it is important to realize who the antichrist is and what he is up to for he will deceive many into thinking that he is a great world leader who will bring peace and prosperity to a world hungry for it we can infer from daniel certain characteristics of this man popular during the first three and a half years of the tribulation he will dominate the airwaves he will be physically appealing highly intelligent with christ like charisma and personality an international politician military tactician and economic expert his word will be peace he will make a treaty with the jews which he will break after three and a half years he will have such supernatural power that a mortal wound to his head will be healed even the very elect will be deceived if you do not pray and read the bible you too will be deceived dominate the airwaves perhaps howard stern or rush limbaugh m the antichrist will have a companion the false prohphet sic who will make an image in the likeness of the antichrist and cause it to speak all who refuse to worhsip sic the image will be killed the final three and a half years will be absolutely insane with demonized spirits everywhere x do not give up hope the seven years of tribulation will end with the triumphant return of christ the antichrist will be defeated be steadfast and endure and you will be rewarded greatly in heaven start reading the bible and praying fervently now the salvation of your sould depends upon it determine that come what may you will not take the mark or worship the antichrist you still have a chance to be saved or remain saved but this time you will have to be faithful unto death may god find you ready in the hour of his glorious return mike cluff christianity is stupid v qs ubvms or mike luick ubvms give up negativland ub language perception laboratory bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re are atoms real in article c ue t g k news rich bnr ca bcash crchh nosubdomain nodomain brian cash writes petri and mathew your discusion on the reality of atoms is interesting but it would seem that you are verging on the question is anything real that is since observation is not reliable how can we say that anything is real i don t think this was the intention of the original question since you now define out the word real so that nothing can meet its criteria just a thought brian ps rainbows and shadows are real they are not objects they are phenomenon an interesting question would be if atoms are objects classical or phenomenon neo quantum or what i ve been following this train of talk and the question of dismissing atoms as being in some sense not real leaves me uneasy it seems to be implied that we obseve only the effects and therefore the underlying thing is not necessarily real the tree outside my window is in this category is observe the light which bounces off of it not the tree itself the observation is indirect but no more so than observations i have made of atoms also what about observations and experiments that have been routinely done with individual atoms i am thinking in particular of atom trapping experiments and tests of fundamental quantum mechanics such as the quantum zeno effect where an individual atom is studied for a long period of time some of the attempts at quantum mechanical arguments were not very satisfying either one has to be carefull about making such arguments without a solid technical background in the field what i read seemed a little confused a quite a red herring anyway if the purpose of a public debate is to make the audience think it worked after doing so i m willing to try to defend the following assertion if anyone cares atoms are as real as trees and are real in the ussual every day sense of the word real
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes in article r voinnr q lynx unm edu cfaehl vesta unm edu chris faehl writes the myth to which i refer is the convoluted counterfeit athiests have created to make religion appear absurd you don t need any counterfeit athiest s myth to make religion appear absurd you need only read any of friendly christian bill conner s posts jim halat halat bear com bear stearns whatever doesn t kill you will only serve to annoy you nyc i speak only for myself
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article apr mks com mike mks com mike brookbank writes in article apr mac cc macalstr edu acooper mac cc macalstr edu writes in article bissda saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes die for a lie wouldn t people be able to tell if he was a liar i light of yesterday s events in waco texas i guess the answer to your questions are very obvious if you think waco is just one example think back to in jonestown where more than people died for a lie deletions correction i think it was also contrary to earlier belief it is now widely accepted that not all committed suicide but were actually killed in the end they did die for a lie but some not out of conviction alone thought i try to make this point clear disclaimer the opinions expressed in this posting are mine solely and do not represent my employer in any way f a karner aix technical support karner austin vnet ibm com
alt.atheism	islam and sufism was re move the islam discussions short reply to kent sandvik s post remarking how it is strange that somehow sufism is related to islam as to him they seem quite different if one really understands islam it is not strange that sufism is associated with it in fact sufism is in general seen as the inner dimension of islam one of the roots of the word islam is submission islam denotes submission to god sufism is the most complete submission to god imaginable in annihilating oneself in god i am not a sufi or on the sufi path but have read a lot and recently have been discussing a number of things with others who are on the sufi path fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism in apr cs nott ac uk eczcaw mips nott ac uk a wainwright writes in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes great respect or love for a particular person does not equal a form of theism fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au hmm what about jesus sure a person could have great respect for jesus and yet be an atheist having great respect for jesus does not necessarily mean that one has to follow the christian or muslim interpretation of his life fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
alt.atheism	re atheism survey i replied to this query via e mail but i think there are some issues that are worth discussing in public mta mtabbott unix amherst edu wrote i am doing research on atheism part of which involves field research here on the net the following is a survey directed towards all readers of this group intended to get data about the basis of atheistic belief i would recommend you to take a look at your dictionary alt atheism faq files to notice that atheism is not a belief system and what is common to all atheists is not a belief but a lack of belief in deities i cannot imagine how anyone could do research on atheism without paying careful attention to this issue first of all i ve tried to structure questions that can be answered in a variety of ways with varying amounts of detail it s possible to give succinct answers to most everything but there s enough here to keep most of you typing for hours i m sure imho this is a poor method to do any real survey although i m sure the replies might keep you amused for hours also i tend to use a lot of anthropological buzzwords like belief system although i know some of you might contend that you don t have any beliefs but are skeptical towards everything i understand but you know what i mean think of such buzzwords as abbreviations for the rather unweildy phrases required to get the precise idea across no i do not know what you mean if you are surveying our individual philosophies fine but that s not strictly atheism atheism is not just another godless version of the theistic explanations for life the universe and everything it is not a belief system and it could hardly be called a philosophical system once more atheism is characterised by lack of belief in deities do not twist the meaning or assume that we have some kind of philosophy we all agree on some comments on your questions what contact with other atheists have you had before and after and during your conversion to atheism certainly your involvement with alt atheism counts how have net discussions affected your beliefs i would also like to hear more about this have we been able to convert anyone are you convinced that your beliefs were acquired through wholly rational means proofs of the non existence of god etc or was it perhaps at least in part through other means alienation from mainstream religion etc this question contains a contradiction in terms beliefs cannot be acquired rationally if they could they would not be beliefs you also seem to have rather strange ideas of how people become atheists those who are alienated from religion do not necessarily become atheists they just think very little about religion it seems it requires a considerable time of honest inquiry to find out that religions are actually intellectually dishonest virtual realities those who have never had beliefs will certainly find this question quite odd how can lack of belief be acquired when did i acquire lack of belief in the easter bunny i did believe in santa though to what extent do you feel you understand the universe through your beliefs what phenomena of the universe and of human existence anything from physical phenomena to the problem of the existence of evil in human affairs do you feel are adequately dealt with by your beliefs and where are they lacking as an explanatory method this question does not make any sense since atheism does not deal with these issues it is not a worldview or a philosophy or a belief system sigh why haven t i seen a good well thought survey in the usenet for three years and what is the point of doing surveys in the net anyway just to abstract some opinions petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics is the truth pihatie c finou oulu fi physics is the rule of sf oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry is the game
alt.atheism	re theism and fanatism was islamic genocide in article bb b i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes in article r sn r horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes theism is strongly correlated with irrational belief in absolutes irrational belief in absolutes is strongly correlated with fanatism deletion theism is correlated with fanaticism i have neither said that all fanatism is caused by theism nor that all theism leads to fanatism the point is theism increases the chance of becoming a fanatic one could of course argue that would be fanatics tend towards theism for example but i just have to loook at the times in history when theism was the dominant ideology to invalidate that conclusion that that is the basic mechanism behind it imo the influence of stalin or for that matter ayn rand invalidates your assumption that theism is the factor to be considered bogus i just said that theism is not the only factor for fanatism the point is that theism is a factor that s your claim now back it up i consider your argument as useful as the following belief is strongly correlated with fanaticism therefore belief is a factor in fanaticism true and utterly useless note this is any belief not belief in gods gullibility blind obedience to authority lack of scepticism and so on are all more reliable indicators and the really dangerous people the sources of fanaticism are often none of these things they are cynical manipulators of the gullible who know precisely what they are doing that s a claim you have to support please note that especially in the field of theism the leaders believe what they say if you believe that you re incredibly naive now some brands of theism and more precisely some theists do tend to fanaticism i grant you to tar all theists with this brush is bigotry not a reasoned argument and it reads to me like a warm up for censorship and restriction of religious freedom ever read animal farm that s a straw man and as usually in discussions with you one has to repeat it read what i have written above not every theism leads to fanatism and not all fanatism is caused by theism the point is there is a correlation and it comes from innate features of theism no some of it comes from features which some theism has in common with some fanaticism your last statement simply isn t implied by what you say before because you re trying to sneak in innate features of all theism the word you re groping for is some gullibility by the way is one of them no shit sherlock so why not talk about gullibility instead of theism since it seems a whole lot more relevant to the case you have as opposed to the case you are trying to make and to say that i am going to forbid religion is another of your straw men interesting that you have nothing better to offer i said it reads like a warm up to that that s because it s an irrational and bogus tirade and has no other use than creating a nice them us split in the minds of excitable people such as are to be found on either side of church walls define irrational belief e g is it rational to believe that reason is always useful irrational belief is belief that is not based upon reason the latter has been discussed for a long time with charley wingate one point is that the beliefs violate reason often and another that a process that does not lend itself to rational analysis does not contain reliable information well there is a glaring paradox here an argument that reason is useful based on reason would be circular and argument not based on reason would be irrational which is it that s bogus self reference is not circular and since the evaluation of usefulness is possible within rational systems it is allowed o k it s oval it s still begging the question however and though that certainly is allowed it s not rational and you claiming to be rational and all at the risk of repeating myself and hearing we had that before we didn t hear a refutation before so we re back deal with it you can t use reason to demonstrate that reason is useful someone who thinks reason is crap won t buy it you see your argument is as silly as proving mathematical statements needs mathematics and mathematics are therfore circular anybody else think godel was silly the first part of the second statement contains no information because you don t say what the beliefs are if the beliefs are strong theism and or strong atheism then your statement is not in general true the second part of your sentence is patently false counterexample an axiomatic datum does not lend itself to rational analysis but is assumed to contain reliable information regardless of what process is used to obtain it i ve been speaking of religious systems with contradictory definitions of god here an axiomatic datum lends itself to rational analysis what you say here is a an often refuted fallacy have a look at the discussion of the axiom of choice and further one can evaluate axioms in larger systems out of which they are usually derived i exist is derived if you want it that way further one can test the consistency and so on of a set of axioms what is it you are trying to say that at some point people always wind up saying this datum is reliable for no particular reason at all example i am not dreaming compared the evidence theists have for their claims to the strength of their demands makes the whole thing not only irrational but antirational i can t agree with this until you are specific which theism to say that all theism is necessarily antirational requires a proof which i suspect you do not have using the traditonal definition of gods personal supernatural entities with objective effects on this world usually connected to morals and or the way the world works imo any belief about such gods is necessarily irrational that does not mean that people who hold them are in principle opposed to the exercise of intelligence some atheists are also scientists for example the affinity to fanatism is easily seen it has to be true because i believe it is nothing more than a work hypothesis however the beliefs say they are more than a work hypothesis i don t understand this can you formalise your argument person a believes system b becuase it sounds so nice that does not make b true it is at best a work hypothesis however the content of b is that it is true and that it is more than a work hypothesis testing or evaluating evidence for or against it therefore dismissed because b already believed says it is wrong a waste of time not possible depending on the further contents of b amalekites idolaters protestants are to be killed this can have interesting effects peculiar definition of interesting but sure now show that a belief in gods entails the further contents of which you speak why aren t my catholic neighbours out killing the protestants for example maybe they don t believe in it maybe it s the conjunction of b asserts b and jail kill dissenters that is important and the belief in gods is entirely irrelevant it certainly seems so to me but then i have no axe to grind here frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	re christian morality is in article ousrvr oulu fi kempmp phoenix oulu fi petri pihko writes dan schaertel dps nasa kodak com wrote i love god just as much as she loves me if she wants to seduce me she ll know what to do but if he she did you would probably consider it rape simple logic arguments are folly if you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools of those who tried to trick him with logic our ability to reason is just a spec of creation yet some think it is the ultimate if you rely simply on your reason then you will never know more than you do now your argument is of the type you ll know once you try yet there are many atheists who have sincerely tried and believed for many years but were eventually honest enough to admit that they had lived in a virtual reality obviously there are many christians who have tried and do believe so to learn you must accept that which you don t know what does this mean to learn you must accept that you don t know something right o but to learn you must accept something i don t know why this is not the way i prefer to learn it is unwise to merely swallow everything you read suppose i write a book telling how the great invisible pink unicorn tm has helped me in my daily problems would you accept this since you can t know whether it is true or not no one asks you to swallow everything in fact jesus warns against it but let me ask you a question do you beleive what you learn in history class or for that matter anything in school i mean it s just what other people have told you and you don t want to swallow what others say right the life death and resurection of christ is documented historical fact as much as anything else you learn how do you choose what to believe and what not to i could argue that george washington is a myth he never lived because i don t have any proof except what i am told however all the major events of the life of jesus christ were fortold hundreds of years before him neat trick uh there is no way to get into a sceptical heart you can not say you have given a sincere effort with the attitude you seem to have you must trust not just go to church and participate in it s activities were you ever willing to die for what you believed
alt.atheism	re alt atheism faq constructing a logical argument here s a suggestion for the logical argument faq i don t think it s covered though the fallacy probably has a better name than the one i used how about it mathew inconsistency and counterexample this occurs when one party points out that some source of information takes stand a which is inconsistent with b there are two variations in which b is either a mutually agreed on premise or else a stand elsewhere from the same source the second party fallaciously responds by saying see the source really does say b it s right here this reply does not refute the allegation of inconsistency because it does not show that the source only says b example of the first type the koran says unbelievers should be treated in these ways we can both agree these are immoral the koran clearly says in this other passage that unbelievers are not to be treated that way example of the second type there are two biblical creation stories you re wrong since the bible clearly describes the creation as description on the first day after christmas my truelove served to me leftover turkey on the second day after christmas my truelove served to me turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey days deleted flaming turkey wings pizza hut commercial and m tlu a gic bait ken arromdee arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu
alt.atheism	religion as cause was islamic authority over women bill conner bil okcforum osrhe edu writes my stuff deleted i don t have to make outrageous claims about religion s affecting and effecting history for the purpsoe of a a all i have to do point out that many claims made here are wrong and do nothing to validate atheism bill you seem to have erroneously assumed that this board has as its sole purpose the validation of atheism it doesn t this board is used to discuss atheism as a philosophy to share posters experiences regarding atheism to debunk various theisms and theism as a whole to share resources relating to atheism and even to socialize with others with similar views and of course with the number of theists who come here to preach it is also used to argue the case for atheism at no time have i made any statement that religion was the sole cause of anything what i have done is point out that those who do make that kind of claim are mistaken usually deliberately if you want to accuse people of lying please do so directly the phrase deliberately mistaken is rather oxymoronic to credit religion with the awesome power to dominate history is to misunderstand human nature the function of religion and of course history i believe that those who distort history in this way know exaclty what they re doing and do it only for affect the two forms of theism most often discussed here these days are christianity and islam both of these claim to make their followers into good people and claim that much of benefit to humanity has been accomplished through their faiths imho they are right the american friends service committee quaker catholic relief services bread for the world salvation army soup kitchens and mother theresa spring to mind can someone with more knowledge of islam supply the names of some analagous islamic groups when mother theresa claims that her work is an outgrowth of her christianity i believe her her form of theism ascribes to her deity such a benevolence toward humanity that it would be wrong not to care for those in need the point is that such a philosophy does have the power to change the behavior of individuals if it is widespread enough it can change societies the same works for the horrors of history to claim that christianity had little to do with the crusades or the inquisition is to deny the awesome power that comes from faith in an absolute what it seems you are doing twisting the reasonable statement that religion was never the solitary cause of any evil into the unreasonable statement that religion has had no evil impacts on history that is absurd scott sauyet ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu
alt.atheism	books edm twisto compaq com ed mccreary writes while we re on the topic of books has anyone else noticed that paine s the age of reason is hard to find i ve been wanting to pick up a copy for a while but not bad enough to mail order it i ve noticed though that none of the bookstores i go to seem to carry it i thought this was supposed to be classic what s the deal actually i ve got an entire list of books written by various atheist authors and i went to the largest bookstore in my area pittsburgh and couldn t find any of them what section of the bookstore do you find these kinds of books in do you have to look in an alternative bookstore for most of them any help would be appreciated i can send you the list if you want thanks nanci if you know and are sure of the author of this quote please send me email nm w andrew cmu edu the fate of the country does not depend on what kind of paper you drop into the ballot box once a year but on what kind of man you drop from your chamber into the street every morning
alt.atheism	re college atheists nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye writes i read an article about a poll done of students at the ivy league schools in which it was reported that a third of the students indentified themselves as atheists this is a lot higher than among the general population i wonder what the reasons for this discrepancy are is it because they are more intelligent younger is this the wave of the future i would guess that it probably has something to do with the ease of which ideas and thoughts are communicated on a college campus in the real world tm it s easier for theists well people in general really to lock themselves into a little bubble where they only see and talk to those people who are of the same opinion as they are in college you are constantly surrounded by and have to interact with people who have different ideas about life the universe and everything it is much much harder to build a bubble around yourself to keep everyone else s ideas from reaching you so in a world where theists are forced to contend with and listen to atheists and theists of other religions some are bound to have a change in their beliefs over four years there is nowhere to run david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell nanci if you know and are sure of the author of this quote please send me email nm w andrew cmu edu the fate of the country does not depend on what kind of paper you drop into the ballot box once a year but on what kind of man you drop from your chamber into the street every morning
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr nic csu net davec silicon csci csusb edu dave choweller wrote in article apr bnr ca rashid writes stuff deleted the point of my post was that rushdie was not being condemned solely for the words in his book although this was certainly a contributing factor it was the whole series of actions of rushdie and his publishers following the publication of the book and the initial media spotlight placed on the book that in large part led to the fatwa the kind of fatwa levelled against rushdie is not lightly placed and there are any number of anti islamic writers both within and outside the islamic world who have not had fatwas made against them here someone who adds fuel to an explosive situation might be charged with incitement to riot if people die in the rioting the charges against him might become even more serious how can rushdie be blamed for the deaths of people who are demonstrating against him the deaths should be blamed on the people who dealt with the demonstrations or on the demonstrators themselves if they were violent to what lengths will you go to justify this barbaric behaviour against rushdie once the rushdie situation exploded into the media the muslim voice on the matter of the book was effectively restricted to short video bytes showing the dramatic highlights of muslim demonstrations for every twenty or so newspaper magazine articles interviews etc supporting rushdie there would appear one muslim voice this person was usually selected based on how dramatic and incoherent he was not on his knowledge of islam or the situation at the time this approx twenty to one ratio continued throughout the escalation of the crisis with rushdie in the central spotlight as the man of the moment the valiant defender of everyman s right to free speech decoupled from responsibility as an aside it s interesting that while the hue and cry about freedom of speech went up some books defaming certain ethnic and religious groups continued to be banned here it was felt that they injured the sensibilities of these groups and presented a false image which could promote feelings of hate towards these groups for muslims this kind of double standard was annoying rushdie saw this spotlight as a golden opportunity to lash out at organized islam and he did so with admirable verbal skill the only kind of islam which rushdie finds palatable is what he calls a secular islam an islam separated from it s qur an it s prophet god its legislation and most importantly from any intrusion into any political arena fine rushdie made his views known the muslim s made their anger at his book known the scale of the whole affair erupted into global proportions it was by this time already a political situation affecting governments as well as individuals the situation was a serious one with far reaching political implications at the centre of this turmoil was rushdie throwing fuel on the fire engaged in a personal crusade that made him oblivious to any sense of caution now you may feel that the person in the centre of a worldwide storm such as this has no responsibility has no reason to exercise restraint of any kind has no obligation to perhaps step back momentarily out of the spotlight till matters calm down perhaps you even feel that he is justified in boldly defying the anger of all those who dare to take umbrage at his literary work no matter what insult they find within it perhaps you see him as a kind of secular heroic knight mounted on the his media steed doing battle with the dragon of islamic fundamentalism well khomeini saw him as a disingeneous author who grew up in a muslim atmosphere knew well what muslim s hold dear who wrote a book which mischievously uses certain literary conventions to slander insult and attack islam and its most notable personalities who when faced with a situation that became a worldwide crisis continued with his mischief in the world stage of the media who even after people were injured and killed because of the magnitude and emotion of the situation continued his mischief instead of having the good sense to desist khomeini saw the crisis as mischief making on a grand scale mischief making that grew in scale as the scale of the crisis enlarged the deaths of muslims around the world and rushdie s continued media mischief even after this was the triggering factor that seemed to decide khomeini on putting a stop to the mischief the person at the centre of all these events was rushdie he was the source of the continuing mischief all media support government support was just that support the source was rushdie and his publishers who were nothing short of ecstatic at the publicity and were very happy to see rushdie constantly in the media the islamic rulings that deal with people who engage in this kind of grand scale mischief making was applied to rushdie you re attempts at justification are not doing the image of islam any good i have made no attempts at justification only at explanation image is the chief concern of muslim apologists for islam and for rushdie if muslims willingly relegated themselves to becoming a sub culture within a larger secular culture such that the secular principles and laws had precedence over the laws of islam then i have no doubt that islam would then be thought to have a good image principally because it would by and large reflect the secular image a good image usually means be more like me your attempts at totally exonerating rushdie reflect exactly the attitude that resulted in the polarization brought about by the crisis in iran the situation was monitored for many months when rushdie kept adding fuel to the flames through the free worldwide voice that the media gave him the situation was monitored more seriously when even after many deaths occured worldwide rushdie still did not desist the fatwa was pronounced when behaving like a total jerk endangers lives and the jerk sees this and still insists on his right to behave like a total jerk he has the rug jerked out from under him if the muslims didn t make such a big fuss over the book like issuing death threats and killing publishers no one would have heard of it the fatwa came later much later if rushdie didn t mouth off so much in the media the fuss would have died down no one would have been killed no fatwa would have been passed the whole episode would have fizzled away
alt.atheism	re who has read rushdie s the satanic verses in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes yes the qur an discusses this point in several ways some of them quite directly for example it says that if god were to appear them there would be no need for faith and belief as the evidence would be definitive ah excellent so why doesn t she appear to me i m a little weak in the blind faith department besides she doesn t even really need to appear how about oh say a little tip something like put your all on in the at the dog races perhaps in a dream or vision how do we know that muhammed didn t just go out into the desert and smoke something would a person who was high write so well and with such consistency i m afraid i don t know arabic i have only read translations i wouldn t know it if it were well written consistent though is one thing the quran is not and have you read it in arabic besides some of my best writing has been done under the influence of shall we say consciousness altering substances and how do we know that the scribes he dictated the quran to didn t screw up or put in their own little verses they d have to be very good to do so without destroying the beauty and literary quality of text arabic text yes so how do we know they weren t very good again assuming that the quran is beautfully written and why can muhammed marry more than four women when no other muslim is allowed to muhammad did not exceed the number after the revelation regulating the number of wives a man could marry but before it ok i retract this point although i might still say that once he knew he should have done something about it although i think the biggest insult to islam is that the majority of its followers would want to suppress a book sight unseen on the say so of some holy guy not to mention murder the author i agree but is it really true that this is the case i haven t interviewed all muslims about this i would really like it if this were false but i can t take it on your say so what are your sources another case of judging principles on the basis of those who claim to follow them what other basis do we have to judge a system especially when we can t get a consistent picture of what islam really is do i believe khomeini do i go by the imam of the mosque in mecca or perhaps the guy in new jersey or perhaps you say i should go only by the quran ok whose translation and what about things like and wherever you find idolators kill them s shamim mohamed uunet noao cmcl arizona shamim shamim cs arizona edu take this cross and garlic here s a mezuzah if he s jewish a page of the koran if he s a muslim and if he s a zen buddhist you re on your own member of the league for programming freedom write to lpf uunet uu net
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by theism evidence i saw a hour show on pbs the other day about the history of the jews appearently the cursades a religious war agianst the muslilams in the holy land sparked the widespread persecution of muslilams and jews in europe among the supporters of the persiecution were none other than martin luther and the vatican later hitler would use luthers writings to justify his own treatment of the jews genocide is caused by theism evidence sd
alt.atheism	re societal basis for morality in article c zu k fzd news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes on what basis can we say that the actions of another society as per hitler comment are wrong ultimately it rests with personal opinion in my opinion why does majority make right the question doesn t make sense to me maybe it would be better to ask what makes a democracy better than for example a totalitarian regim dan
alt.atheism	re high times a comin verdant ucs umass edu sol lightman writes my theory though yet unproven is that this is due to simple envy no its not its due to the fact that there are two issues here religion and religion religion is personal belief system religion is a memetic virus people loudly proclaiming their beliefs are crossing the border from religion religion people that want to save others are firmly entrenched in religion memoids rule of not practicing religion is to shut the fuck up unless you discuss it politely this means that the motive behind the conversation is not only your self gratifying wish to spread the word religion is something that ultimately comes from within a person and reflects their value judgements religion is something that is contracted from others and does not reflect the persons value judgements other than perhaps i think i ll be brainwashed today religion is a drug i believe you can discuss religion however the post that started this off was not intented as discussion it was more a proclamation of someones religion if you think i m talking about censorship or that i m closeminded you haven t understood this i don t have any problem with the discussion of religion its just religion that i can t stand
alt.atheism	re high times a comin rubble leland stanford edu adam heath clark writes it seems a very large part of christianity is based on the notion that it is the right religion and that just about any other way of looking at the universe is flat out wrong in the old days we had the inquisition and the burning of heretics now we have pat buchanan trying to start some cultural war because he can t stand to live in the same country as all these other non god fearing people its a survival trait there are only a fixed number of resources people for religions to inhabit the doctrines of intolerance and not using birth control are devices whereby the meme of the capital r religion of christianity gains a larger share of the population than its memetic competitors
alt.atheism	re christian morality is in article apr dcs warwick ac uk simon dcs warwick ac uk simon clippingdale writes dan i m concerned that you are in grave spiritual danger because of your stubborn refusal to love and accept into your heart the mighty invisible pink unicorn nice parody deleted i shall pray for you in fact brother i cast out the demon which binds you in the name of the mighty invisible pink unicorn dan you must have faith then you better pray for me too because i believe that the mighty invisibile pink unicorn does not exist one being cannot be both pink and invisible the demon or should that be daemon that keeps me from believing and saving my soul is named logic bill mayne
alt.atheism	re who has read rushdie s the satanic verses in article optima cs arizona edu sham cs arizona edu shamim zvonko mohamed writes in article r cl innknk bozo dsinc com perry dsinc com jim perry writes anyway since i seem to be the only one following this particular line of discussion i wonder how many of the rest of the readership have read this book what are your thoughts on it i read it when it first came out and i liked it at the time i still sorta kinda thought of myself as a muslim and i couldn t see what the flap was all about thank you i now know at least that though i may be on drugs at least i m not the only one the writing style was a little hard to get used to but it was well worth the effort coming from a similar background rushdie grew up in bombay in a muslim family and moved to england i grew up in new delhi it made a strong impression on me and he used many of the strange constructions of indian english the yaar at the end of a sentence butbutbut the occasional hindi phrase etc yes this took some getting used to of course not having an indian connection no knowledge of hindi etc this was not trivial for me i did have thanks to the wonders of the net a glossary to satanic verses posted to rec arts books by vijay raghavan which explains a lot of the indian english constructions indian culture references even the islamic references jahilia submission the context of the satanic verses incident etc what i have only covers the first couple of hundred pages but it helped me get into the flow of the novel i can mail this to anyone interested if anyone has portions after part i if they exist i d like to get those jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	re burden of proof in r b hg aurora engr latech edu ray engr latech edu bill ray writes if i make a statement that god exists loves me etc but in no way insist that you believe it does that place a burden of proof upon me if you insist that god doesn t exist does that place a burden of proof upon you i give no proofs i only give testimony to my beliefs i will respond to proofs that you attempt to disprove my beliefs what is your reaction to people who claim they were abducted by space aliens some of these people say i was abducted experimented on etc if we insist that these aliens don t exist is the burden of proof placed on us these people can give no hard facts but can give a lot of testimony to back up their beliefs replace space aliens with elvis big foot blue unicorns and we have a larger percentage of the population than i like to think about sometimes i wonder if reality really is a different experience for everone
alt.atheism	re rawlins debunks creationism john e king king ctron com posts a whopping one liner the modern theory of evolution is so inadequate that it deserves to be treated as a matter of faith francis hitching i have a few points to make about the above posting science is not based on and does not consist of quotes from either real or alleged experts critical reasoning evidence and if possible experimentation are necessary creationists frequently display a massive confusion about this by merely quoting both non experts and experts alike some of the latter quotes are in fact false and steadfastly refusing to follow any kind of rigorous scientific procedure this strongly suggests that a their claims completely lack any scientific merit and b they are aware of this fatal deficiency of course you may not actually be a creationist and this may not be your real intent you have failed to identify hitching and the surrounding context of his statement why is that if hitching is a scientific illiterate then the quote would merely display his profound ignorance of evolutionary biology creationists are frequently known to quote real scientists out of context and to fabricate statements that they subsequently attribute to legitimate scientists of course you may not actually be a creationist and this may not be your real intent evidence supporting the alleged inadequacies of the modern theory of evolution would be a much more powerful argument than a contextless one line quote from an unidentified nobody it is also important to note that disproving biological evolution does not automatically prove some alternate claims any more that disproving that the earth is shaped like a hockey puck proves that it is a hyperbolic paraboloid creationists seem rather fond of diving head first into this logical fallacy of course you may not actually be a creationist and this may not be your real intent since evolution is central to virtually all of modern science an attack on evolution either the fact or the theory really represents an attack on science while the theory will unquestionably continue to evolve b the fact of evolution will not ever go away creationists lost the battle long ago more than years in fact but are simply too willfully ignorant and irrational to acknowledge the fact of course you may not actually be a creationist and you may not really be that ignorant warren kurt vonroeschlaub kv iastate edu asks neither i nor webster s has ever heard of francis hitchings who is he i like hitchings am not to be found in webster s b francis hitchings is a scientifically illiterate creationist or perhaps he is just playing the part of one who wrote a quite ignorant book attacking evolution the neck of the giraffe in that publication he quotes a creationist jean sloat morton using the standard invalid creationist probability argument that proteins could not have formed by chance thus not only confusing abiogenesis with evolution the two are quite independent but also concluding with a non sequitur i e the conclusion does not follow pp hitchings also misquotes richard lewontin in an effort to support creationism pp hitchings book was reviewed by national park service ecologist david graber in the los angeles times and repeated in the oregonian the article was titled giraffe sticks scientific neck out too far excerpts include francis hitchings is not a biologist he goes after darwin like mark antony after brutus he flips from scientific reasoning to mysticism and pseudo science with the sinuosity of a snake oil salesman he suggests a mystical organizing principle of life using the similarity of organs in different creatures as evidence sic note that the last statement above is actually evidence for evolution not against it if john e king is quoting from this reviewed book it wouldn t surprise me much it s also interesting that king had nothing to add i e he only posted a quote uucp uunet tektronix sail mikec or m cranford uunet tektronix sail labs tek com mikec principal troll arpa mikec sail labs tek com relay cs net resident skeptic csnet mikec sail labs tek com teklabs tektronix
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by theism evidence in article c a s dvi mailer cc fsu edu dekorte dirac scri fsu edu stephen l dekorte writes i saw a hour show on pbs the other day about the history of the jews appearently the cursades a religious war agianst the muslilams in the holy land sparked the widespread persecution of muslilams and jews in europe among the supporters of the persiecution were none other than martin luther and the vatican later hitler would use luthers writings to justify his own treatment of the jews genocide is caused by theism evidence heck i remember reading a quote of luther as something like jews should be shot like deer and of course much catholic doctrine for centuries was extremely anti semitic are you so sure that your truth and your justice are worth more than the truths and justices of other centuries simone de beauvoir where is there a certainty that rises above all doubt and withstands all critique karl jaspers rice university will rice college
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article r e vinnkn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes kcochran nyx cs du edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes wait are we talking about ethics or morals here is the distinction important yes well make it ethics deal with individuals morals deal with groups well our moral system seems to mimic the natural one in a number of ways please describe these number of ways in detail then explain the any contradictions that may arise just look at how human behavior mimics animal behavior i couldn t even begin to list all of the similarities many of the dissimilarities are due to our high intelligence please describe these number of ways in detail then explain any contradictions that may arise i don t know what is wrong is it possible for humans to survive for a long time in the wild yes it s possible but it is difficult humans are a social animal and that is a cause of our success define difficult i don t understand what you don t understand the sentence yes it s possible but it is difficult humans survived in the wild for hundreds of thousands of years no as noted earlier lack of mating such as abstinence or homosexuality isn t really destructive to the system it is a worst neutral so if every member of the species was homosexual this wouldn t be destructive to the survival of the species most animals that exhibit homosexuality are actually bisexual answer the question keith is homosexuality detrimental to the survival of the species kcochran nyx cs du edu b c d e f g k m r s t tsakc my thoughts my posts my ideas my responsibility my beer my pizza ok
alt.atheism	re bayesian statistics theism and atheism in article apr dcs warwick ac uk simon dcs warwick ac uk simon clippingdale writes in article quei mb horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article apr dcs warwick ac uk simon dcs warwick ac uk simon clippingdale writes i write imagine that alterian dollars turn up in your bank account every month suppose further that this money is being paid to you by a your big hearted alterian benefactor or b a bug in an alterian atm let s suppose that this is a true dichotomy so p a p b trouble is alterius is in a different universe so that no observations of alterius are possible except for the banks you couldn t possibly afford it now let s examine the case for a there is no evidence whatsoever that there is any such thing as a big hearted alterian benefactor however p exists b h a b p not exists b h a b on the grounds that lack of evidence for is evidence against when we have a partition like that we dismiss hypothesis a turning therefore to b we also find no evidence to support that hypothesis on the same grounds as before we dismiss hypothesis b the problem with this is that we have dismissed all of the possible hypotheses and even though we know by construction that the money arrives every month we have proven that it can t because we have dismissed all of its potential causes that s an extremely poor argument and here s why premise this money is being paid to you by either a your big hearted alterian benefactor or b a bug in an alterian atm thus each monthly appearance of the bucks should it happen is an observation on alterius and by construction is evidence for the existence of either the benefactor or the bug in the atm premise no observations on alterius are possible except for the banks you couldn t possibly afford it you forgot to include this my premise is actually premise the cardinality of the set of possible observations on alterius is one this is clearly contradictory to the first not if you state it properly trouble is on the basis of premise you say that there can be no evidence of either the benefactor or the bug but the first premise leads to the conclusion that the appearance of the bucks should it happen is evidence for the existence of either the benefactor or the bug voila a screaming contradiction with my highlights sc but in a strawman argument there is only evidence for oneof benefactor bug no observation to distinguish benefactor from bug is possible that is not evidence for bug and neither is it evidence for benefactor nor is true to say that this hypothetical universe appears exactly as if there were no benefactor bug two statements both would be false this is still contradictory it reduces to alterian dosh arriving in my account is due to benefactor or bug this is not evidence for benefactor neither is it evidence for bug meaning that it doesn t lend more weight to one than to the other therefore no evidence can exist for benefactor and no evidence can exist for bug but relies on a shift in meaning from when you say paraphrased in that this is not evidence for benefactor for example what you mean is that it s no more evidence for benefactor than it is for bug yes that s what i mean in however you ve shifted the meaning of evidence for benefactor so that it now means absolute evidence for benefactor rather than relative evidence for benefactor w r t bug not really i meant evidence that would tend to one over the other i think this is just a communications problem what i am trying to say in my clumsy way is that while i buy your theory as far as it relates to theism making predictions prayer your rapture example i don t buy your use of occam s razor in all cases where a in my example one couldn t dismiss benefactor or bug on the grounds of simplicity one of these is necessary to explain the dosh i brought up the one by one dismissal process to show that it would be wrong to do so from what you re saying in this post it seems you agree and we re talking at cross purposes is still in contradiction to some sums may help with b benefactor b bug d dosh arrives in account implies p b b d assuming that p bb d so it s either the benefactor or a bug which is responsible if the bucks arrive but not both then p b b d p b d p b d so p b d p b d but implies that p b d and p b d no this isn t what i meant p b d and p b d with necessarily no new observation we ve already seen the dosh to change those estimates i was trying to say again in my clumsy way that it would be wrong to assign probability to either of these and that s precisely what use of the razor does in the case of gods gods are one class of hypothesis there are many others belonging to a set of hypotheses one of which is necessary to explain something which otherwise would not be satisfactorily explained it can be thrown out or retained on grounds of non rational preference not of science or statistics alternatively one could chuck out or retain the lot on the grounds that the answer can t be known or that the notional probability estimates are effectively useless being equal agnosticism weak atheism as they do when the set m is filled by the universe is caused by x where x is gods pink unicorns nothing etc and no observation tends to one conclusion over the other exactly the point i was making i think so we don t throw out any of these contrary to your assertion above that we do some people do simon and they think they are doing excellent science my sole point was that they aren t only observations which directly contradict the hypothesis h i i e x where p x h i can cause p h i to go to zero after a finite number of observations only in this case do we get to throw any of the hypotheses out exactly my point though i may have been unclear you said the diametric opposite which i guess is the source of my confusion i was merely trying to illustrate the incorrectness of doing so what i m trying to say is that while you are correct to say that absence of evidence can sometimes be evidence of absence this does not hold true for all or perhaps any versions of theism and it isn t true that those for which it does not hold can be discarded using the razor on the contrary those for which it does not hold are exactly those which can be discarded using the razor see my post on the other branch of this thread then you seem to be guilty of the contradiction you accuse me of if the razor holds for gods then it holds for all like hypotheses which means that you re assigning p x h i for all i though we ve already established that it s not correct to do so when sum p x h i over all i simply put anyone who claims to have a viable proof of the existence or non existence of gods whether inductive or no is at best mistaken and at worst barking mad luckily i make no such claim and have specifically said as much on numerous occasions you wouldn t be constructing a strawman here would you frank although that doesn t of course rule out my being barking mad in any case i could be barking mad in my spare time with apologies to cleese et al but i think you miss the point once again when i say that something is evidence against an hypothesis that doesn t imply that observation of the said something necessarily falsifies the hypothesis reducing the estimate of p h data to zero if it reduces this quantity it s still evidence against h no i got that i m talking about the case when a you re clearly correct when a and i m not constructing a strawman though it s certainly possible that i ve misunderstood what you re saying however by any standards a system that says when a gods are highly unlikely and when a gods can be dismissed using the razor is a system purporting to be an inductive proof that gods either don t exist or are unnecessary to explain any or all phenomena in my experience systems such as this including those which purport to prove that gods exist always contain a fallacy upon close examination if that s not what you re saying then please put me straight frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	re asimov stamp battin cyclops iucf indiana edu laurence gene battin writes apart from the suggestion that appeared in the letters column of skeptical inquirer recently has there been any further mention about a possible asimov commemorative stamp if this idea hasn t been followed up does anyone know what needs to be done to get this to happen i think that its a great idea should we start a petition or something i believe that there s a year period from time of death until a person can be on a commemorative stamp it was broken once for lyndon johnson i think but other than that it has held for awhile of course we can still start now the elvis stamp was petitioned for ages and things really moved once it got past the year anniversary of his death carl christensen dept of computer science christen astro ocis temple edu temple university curiouser and curiouser lc philadelphia pa usa
alt.atheism	re where are they now in article r ou u horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article apr nuscc nus sg cmtan iss nus sg tan chade meng dan writes i ll be leaving in june that s because i m going back to my university alt atheism is banned there stupid theist intolerance sad isn t it anybody has any idea how i can circumvent this problem frank s solution deleted if you have access to telnet contact nyx cs du edu it s a public access unix system completly free and all you need to for access is a verifiable form of id i think he requires a notarized copy of a picture or a check or some such kcochran nyx cs du edu b c d e f g k m r s t tsakc my thoughts my posts my ideas my responsibility my beer my pizza ok
alt.atheism	re age of reason was who has read rushdie s sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes this is the story of kent the archetype finn that lives in the bay area and tried to purchase thomas paine s age of reason this man was driving around to staceys to books inc to well cleanlighted place to daltons to various other places when he asked for this book the well educated american book store assistants in most placed asked him to check out the thriller section or then they said that his book has not been published yet but they should receive the book soon in some places the assistants bluntly said that they don t know of such an author or that he is not a well known living author so they don t keep copies of his books such is the life and times of america years after the revolution on a similar note a good friend of mine worked as a clerk in a chain bookstore several of his peers were amazing one woman in particular a customer asked her if they had the autobiography of benjamin franklin who s it by was her first question then is he still alive then is it fiction or non fiction finally my friend intervened and showed the guy where it was it makes one wonder what the standards of employment are scott sauyet ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu
alt.atheism	re strong weak atheism in c rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew writes did that faq ever got modified to re define strong atheists as not those who assert the nonexistence of god but as those who assert that they believe in the nonexistence of god in a word yes mathew mathew could you let us know when this happened so i can see if my version is as up to date as possible i try to re save the faqs once in a while but otherwise i ignore their regular postings so i wouldn t generally notice such a change and i like to stay current thanks scott
alt.atheism	a problem with omnipotence i recall a discussion i had heard years ago it went something like this the problem with omnipotence at least as i perceive it as personified by the christian god ideal is that it is potentially contradictory if a manifestation such as god is truly infinite in power can god place limits upon itself some stuff i can t recall then some other questions i think i recall correctly can god unmake itself can god make itself assuming it doesn t yet exist has god has always existed or is it necessary for an observer to bind all of gods potential quantum states into reality was god nothing more than a primordial force of nature that existed during the earliest stages of universal inflationary creation is god a vacuum fluctuation given a great enough energy density could we re create god would that make us god and god something else some more stuff i don t recall concerning creating god followed by is god self aware is it necessary that god be self aware is god a living entity is it necessay that god be a living entity is god unchanging or does it evolve any comments post them so that others might benefit from the open inquiry and resulting discussion kyle
alt.atheism	atheism 
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell in article pharaoh cyborg bt co uk martin pharaoh cyborg bt co uk martin gorman writes jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all go to hell for not believing in god be prepared for your eternal damnation oh fuck off actually i just think he s confused i m going to hell because i m gay not becuase i don t believe in god i wonder if that means i can t come to tammy deans picnic kcochran nyx cs du edu b c d e f g k m r s t tsakc my thoughts my posts my ideas my responsibility my beer my pizza ok because i m the daddy that s why
alt.atheism	re requests in article c qllg bc mailer cc fsu edu mayne pipe cs fsu edu william mayne writes in article pww spac at rice edu pww spacsun rice edu peter walker writes didn t the church get lightning rods banned in several european countries in the eighteenth century because it was widely believed that they interfered with god s striking down of blasphemers i seem to remember that this was more common in eastern europe i don t know about eastern europe but according to bertrand russell writing in science and mysticism i think though it could have been another book said that preachers in colonial boston attributed an earthquake to god s wrath over people putting up lightning rods which they had been preaching against as interference with god s will being deprived of lightning bolts as a method to get at sinners he evidently resorted to sterner measures no smilies i am not making this up i m sure you are not after the san francisco earthquake a couple of years ago there was a flurry of traffic on talk religion misc about how this was the result of the notorious homo this that and t other in the city the fact that the earthquake was actually down the road in santa cruz watsonville didn t seem to phase them any jon
alt.atheism	re a little too satanic kent sandvik and jon livesey made essentially the same response so this time kent s article gets the reply i agree but this started at one particular point in time and we don t know when this starting point of accurately copied scriptures actually happened this begs the question of whether it ever started perhaps because accuracy was always an intention even worse if the events in nt were not written by eye witness accounts a high probability looking at possible dates when the first gospels were ready then we have to take into account all the problems with information forwarded with the telephone metaphor indeed it makes little difference if you have eyewitnesses or people one step away reporters if you will as i said earlier the telephone metaphor is innately bad because the purpose of a game of telephone is contrary to the aims of writing these sorts of texts also i would point out that by the standards generally asserted in this group the distinction between eyewitnesses and others is hollow since nobody can be shown to be an eyewitness or indeed even shown to be the author of the text there is no evidence that the original texts of either the ot or the nt are largely lost over time in a sea of errors corrections additions and deletions in the case of the nt the evidence is strongly in the other direction the textus r and the nestle aland text do not differ on more than a low level of significance it is reasonable to assume a similar situation for the ot based on the nt as a model c wingate the peace of god it is no peace but strife closed in the sod mangoe cs umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace of god
alt.atheism	re societally acceptable behavior in article c s tv h news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes in qvh tinnsg citation ksu ksu edu yohan citation ksu ksu edu jonathan w newton writes in article c qgm dl news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes merely a question for the basis of morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior i disagree with these what society thinks should be irrelevant what the individual decides is all that is important this doesn t seem right if i want to kill you i can because that is what i decide sounds as though you are confused between what i want and what i think is morally right jon
alt.atheism	re why rushdie s writings are unappreciated in article quc u qu cc tut fi a lehtori cc tut fi aario sami writes in bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes in article c jqd mdb blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes it has been asked why no counter fatwa has been issued against khomenei s condemnation of rushdies because of his satanic verses the reason is basically that the satanic verses from which rushdie took his title are a serious matter not to be played around with by anyone who cares about islam this shouldn t matter that s your opinion which i am sorry to say is irrelevant gregg this guy sounds more than a little borg ish vell this is perfectly normal behaviour vor a vogon you know jon
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law i just received some new information regarding the issue of bcci and whether it is an islamic bank etc i am now about to post it under the heading bcci look for it there fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
alt.atheism	re why boyd acsu buffalo edu daniel f boyd writes if the bible is such incredible proof of christianity then why aren t the muslims or the hindus convinced if the qur an is such incredible proof of islam then why aren t the hindus or the christians convinced if god exists why aren t atheists convinced tan chade meng yes sir i have only one question singapore cmtan iss nus sg what is going on
alt.atheism	christianity logic was xtian morality is in article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes simple logic arguments are folly if you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools of those who tried to trick him with logic if you rely simply on your reason then you will never know more than you do now i once heard an arguement from a xtian friend similar to this christianity is a higher logic athiest like u will not be able to understand it your atheist logic is very low only thru faith can we understand the higher logic in god so i asked him so what is this higher logic his answer i don t know this the posting above highlights one of the worst things about xtainity it is abundantly clear to both atheists xtains that their believe is both illogical irrational their tactics therefore to disregard logic rationality altogether silly excuses such as the ones above and those such as how can u trust science science was invented by man only goes to further show the weakness of their religion in my country where xtainity was and still is rapidly growing xtains never try to convert people by appealing to their brains or senses they know it would be a fruitless act given the irrational nature of their faith they would wait until a person is in distress then they would comfort him her and addict them to their emotional opium never in my life had i met a person who converted to xtainity coz it s reasonable rationality has no place in xtainity see xtian arguement against reason above the unenlightened one tan chade meng the wise man tells his wife that he understands her singapore cmtan iss nus sg the fool tries to prove it the unenlightened one tan chade meng the wise man tells his wife that he understands her singapore cmtan iss nus sg the fool tries to prove it
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article madhausc yd kip netcom com madhaus netcom com maddi hausmann writes healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes tammy see maddi i trimmed it healy well you re going to have to practice but you re getting the hang of it soon we re going to have to give you a new nickname try these on for size tammy lucky seven healy tammy pass the falafel healy tammy r us healy tammy learning by doing healy the r us thing is trademarked i don t know if charles lazarus is dead or alive but i d be careful because with a name like lazarus he might rise again just to start a lawsuit dean kaflowitz i knew an architect once who i swear was employed to design the signs for the toys r us and kids r us stores the signs the things they stick over the store or up on a big pole so they can be seen from the highway what a job all those hours in school studying to be an architect so you can tell them to move the pole ten feet closer to the highway
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article c aec fb cbnewsj cb att com decay cbnewsj cb att com dean kaflowitz writes the r us thing is trademarked i don t know if charles lazarus is dead or alive but i d be careful because with a name like lazarus he might rise again just to start a lawsuit the r us is not trademarked but the backwards r us is i believe speaking of proofs of god the funniest one i have ever seen was in a term paper handed in by a freshman she wrote god must exist because he wouldn t be so mean as to make me believe he exists if he really doesn t is this argument really so much worse than the ontological proofs of the existence of god provided by anselm and descartes among others raymond smullyan from b c and other philosophical fantasies
alt.atheism	re fundamental beliefs of sda in article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes i was asked to post list of the sda church s basic beliefs the sda church has always been reluctant to formalize a creed in the usual sense of word however the powers that be in the church deemed it neccessary to publish a summary of basic sda beliefs may i ask why they are afraid to do so speaking of proofs of god the funniest one i have ever seen was in a term paper handed in by a freshman she wrote god must exist because he wouldn t be so mean as to make me believe he exists if he really doesn t is this argument really so much worse than the ontological proofs of the existence of god provided by anselm and descartes among others raymond smullyan from b c and other philosophical fantasies
alt.atheism	re cults vs religions jgreen trumpet calpoly edu james thomas green writes a religion is a cult which if those in power belong to it actually they re all bull shit graeme t g nattress uk ac ncl hitler is nibor from the planet vashir the galactic shape changing psychopath john the tomorrow people hitler s last secret
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell in article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu kcochran nyx cs du edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes from kcochran nyx cs du edu keith justified and ancient cochran subject re you will all go to hell date sun apr gmt in article pharaoh cyborg bt co uk martin pharaoh cyborg bt co uk martin gorman writes jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all go to hell for not believing in god be prepared for your eternal damnation oh fuck off actually i just think he s confused i m going to hell because i m gay not becuase i don t believe in god i wonder if that means i can t come to tammy deans picnic of course you can come i said all a a posters are invited and i didn t put a no homosexual clause bring some munchies and join the party i can t imagine dean objecting either knowing keith i expect he ll bring the leather accessories better oil it well leather cracks when it dries dean kaflowitz
alt.atheism	re poisoning the well was islamic genocide in article rbpq ibg horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article bbacbc i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes by the way that s why i consider you a theist points consisting of rhetorical fallacy unsupported claims and demonstrable falsehoods deleted no wonder that we don t see any detail for this claim it is good to remember that you have answered the statement that you are a theist by another correspondent with that you are not a member of a denomination it is either stupidity or an attempt at a trick answer not unlike the rest of your arguments mr roseneau i have little patience with people who tell me what i believe and who call me a liar when i disagree i m in a position not only to know what it is that i believe but to say so i am an agnostic i am extremely wary of the way you use words like in this case there are broader definitions of gods used by persons who are considered by themselves and others theists i have pointed to that in my post you use one of them your use of definitions seems to rest on the assumption because my moral is objective absolute or the other buzz words you are so fond of everybody will know it and there is no need to define it more exactly and as a user has shown recently the easiest way to dispell you is to ask you for definitions you are of course free to speculate on my motives for objecting to seeming irrational bigotry if you wish but the flaws which i point out in your arguments stand on their own merits since you are the only one seeing them and many correspondents point to the flaws in your reasoning respectively discussing i can t say i am impressed benedikt
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article c b lkz blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes in article w briggs ccresources h cc utas edu au w briggs postoffice utas edu au william briggs writes wasn t jc a carpenter anyway that s beside the point i think the fact that is more compelling is jc fulfilling the prophecies when the prophecies include him getting killed in the most agonizing possible way this is nonsense i can think of a lot more agonizing ways to get killed fatal cancer for instance anyone else have some more maybe we can make a list actually i find the stuff about jc being a carpenter more interesting is there an independent source for this assertion or is it all from the christian bible is there any record at all of anything he built a table a house some stairs norm abrams says the real test of a carpenter s skill is building stairs with hand tools did he leave any plans behind for say kitchen counters and cabinets did he build his own cross if so did he use pressure treated lumber gotta use that pressure treated anywhere that wood meets concrete but it holds up better anyway for mose outdoor applications i keep seeing these bumper stickers that say my boss is a jewish carpenter but they re always on the back of ford escorts and a real carpenter s apprentice would probably drive a pickup so i m out for verification that he really was a carpenter dean kaflowitz sometimes i like to get away from the shack catfish ain t pretty but they don t talk back goin fishin again goin fishin again me and my no good friends sure goin fishin again
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article apr daffy cs wisc edu mccullou snake cs wisc edu mark mccullough writes in article c b lkz blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes i can think of a lot more agonizing ways to get killed fatal cancer for instance anyone else have some more maybe we can make a list how about dying of a blood clot in a very bad place kidney stones with complete blockage
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes in article c aec fb cbnewsj cb att com decay cbnewsj cb att com dean kaflowitz writes the r us thing is trademarked i don t know if charles lazarus is dead or alive but i d be careful because with a name like lazarus he might rise again just to start a lawsuit the r us is not trademarked but the backwards r us is i believe yup i think you re right my mistake now how do i make an r backwards using a computer keyboard i ll bet the gods know how this is alt atheism after all tell you what if all my r s start coming out backwards when i type from now on i ll become a believer and that s not asking for miracles if i asked for a miracle i d ask for a real miracle like for pat buchanan to become an out of the closet drag queen well maybe that wouldn t be so miraculous but i think he d look fabulous in a feather boa and a sequined hat like mia farrow wore in gatsby dean kaflowitz
alt.atheism	re it s all mary s fault in article w briggs ccresources h cc utas edu au w briggs postoffice utas edu au william briggs writes deletion lucky for them that the baby didn t have any obvious deformities i could just see it now mary gets pregnant out of wedlock so to save face she and joseph say that it was god that got her pregnant and then the baby turns out to be deformed or even worse stillborn they d have a lot of explaining to do a few points guys oops guy and gal but i use the term guy asexually has the same sort of conspiracy ever occurred since i mean there must have been dozen of times in the past two thousand years when it would have been opportune time for a messiah to be born it has there is a guy running around in switzerland who claims to have been conceived similarly his mother says the same his father is said to be a bit surprised but anyway there have been a lot of messiahs and many have had a similar story about their birth or their death a list of messiahs could be quite interesting wouldn t you feel bad if you turned out to be wrong and the conception of christ was via god i can just imagine your faces as mary asks you if you ve ever had a child yourself i would wonder why an omnipotent god pulls such stunts instead of providing evidence for everyone to check and the whole question is absurd wouldn t you feel bad if you d find out that stones are sentient and that you have stepped on them all your life and wouldn t you feel bad when you d see the proof that jesus was just a plot of satan if they wanted to save image they could have done what joseph planned to do in the first place have a quite wedding and an equally quite divorce i think it was quite easy to do under jewish law in that regard they would have been pretty dumb to think up a conspiracy like the one you ve outlined in that they a bringing attention on themselves messiah appearances were like royal scandals in zero ad israel see the part in acts when the sandhedrin are discussing what to do about the growth of the new church i e one wise guy said leave it alone and if it is what it says it is nothing can stop it and if it isn t then it will just fizzle out anyway you ve forgotten the pride factor it didn t fizzle the church i mean the argument is a fallacy it is like thanks for reading this far on the end of a letter most religions claim that they won t fizzle because they contain some eternal truth so does christianity since there are old religions it is no wonder to find old religions that have it that they would last roll twelve dice calculate the chance for the result argue that there must be something special about the result because an event with a chance of could hardly happen by chance only feel elevated because you have participated in letting that special event take place benedikt
alt.atheism	re thoughts on christians bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes robert beauchine wrote rb no that s praying on the young preying on the young comes rb later when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the rb priest really wears under that chasible does this statement further the atheist cause in some way surely it s not intended as wit surely it was intended as wit by the way which atheist cause were you referring to bill kevin marshall computer science department virginia tech marshall csugrad cs vt edu blacksburg virginia
alt.atheism	re room for metaphor in article bakerlj augustana edu bakerlj augustana edu lloyd baker writes what i want is a response giving me the pros and cons of metaphorical religious language could an atheist accept this view without giving up the foundamentals of what he believes in could an atheist accept a usage in which religious literature or tradition is viewed in a metaphorical way of course this is essentially what we do with homer or with other concepts such as fate luck free will however there remains the question of whether the religious literature of say christianity is a particularly good set of metaphors for the world today it s also entirely unclear and to me quite unlikely that one could take a contemporary religion like that and divorce the metaphoric potential from the literalism and absolutism it carries now in many cases jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	re moraltiy was re political atheists in article r cmninnb gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes pardon me i am trying to apply human terms to non humans that s right you are basically stating that morality can only deal with humans because only humans are sentient enough to be moral that is you say that morality can only deal with intentions i have never said that only humans are the only beings which are sufficiently sentient to have intentions in fact i have explicitly said that i am perfectly happy to consider that some animals are capable of forming intentions what i am objecting to is considering programmed or instinctive behaviour to have moral significance since it seems to me such behaviour does not involve intention i think that even if someone is not conscious of an alternative this does not prevent his behavior from being moral i m sure you do think this if you say so how about trying to convince me i think that a moral act is moral whether or not the implementor thinks it is that s not the point the point is whether the implementor thinks at all the issue is not whether thinking produces opinion a or opinion b but whether thinking takes place period i ve offered four times i think to accept your definition if you allow me to ascribe moral significence to the orbital motion of the planets hmm perhaps you can ascribe it i could say that many human actions are not natural and thus don t follow a natural morality since humans are part of nature are not all human actions natural or perhaps you re going to throw in a definition of natural that will allow us to describe some actions as natural and some as not natural if so what is the definition other than those death which surround mating rituals other animals just don t kill each other within a species that often do they sure they do as multiple posters have show you sharks for example eat wounded sharks i ve personally seen cats eat their newborn are you in some kind of denial people give you example after example and you go off the air for a week and then pop up claiming that it never happened it s very strange but why don t animals kill each other see what i mean here we go again what do we have to do write up a tailor made faq just for mr schneider jon
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell this is hell hasn t anyone noticed consensual reality is a special case
alt.atheism	re islam and scientific predictions was re genocide is caused by atheism in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes deletion god is the one who created the night the day the sun and the moon each is travelling in an orbit with its own motion qur an deletion well that is certainly different but it looks as if there is a translation found for everything by the way i am most surprised to hear that night and day move in an orbit i thought about this too some translations refer to only the latter two objects being in orbit but bucaille s translation seems to indicate the night and the day travelling in orbit too perhaps this can be understood when one looks at it from the earth s reference frame from this reference frame the day and the night would appear to orbit the earth travelling from east to west this is from the reference frame when the earth is still well yes but that belongs in the other group there is a interpretation found for everything however allowing any form of interpretation reduces the information of the text so interprteted to zero by the way i have checked the quote and i think the lines preceding those quoted above are more interesting where mountains are set on earth in order to immobilize the earth where the skies heavens are referred to as well supported the lines given above are after my edition maybe this is what is meant by the above it s just a possibility and that the sun travels in an orbit without saying that earth does too sounds geocentric to me i will see if i can find out more about this but it is still not geocentric that sun and moon move and the earth is immobile sounds geocentric to me benedikt
alt.atheism	re cruel was re political atheists in article r emjinnmk gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes but this just shows then that painful execution is not considered cruel and unusual punishment this shows that cruel as used in the constitution does not refer to whether or not the punishment causes physical pain rather it must be a different meaning i don t think so although some forms of execution are painful the electric chair looks particularly so i think the pain is relatively short lived drawing and quartering on the other hand looks very painful and the victim wouldn t die right away he d bleed to death i d imagine so what do we have now an integral over pain x time i get to lash you with a wet noodle for ever but i only get to cut you up with a power saw if i m quick about it jon
alt.atheism	alt atheism faq atheist resources archive name atheism resources alt atheism archive name resources last modified april version atheist resources addresses of atheist organizations usa freedom from religion foundation darwin fish bumper stickers and assorted other atheist paraphernalia are available from the freedom from religion foundation in the us write to ffrf p o box madison wi telephone evolution designs evolution designs sell the darwin fish it s a fish symbol like the ones christians stick on their cars but with feet and the word darwin written inside the deluxe moulded d plastic fish is postpaid in the us write to evolution designs laurel canyon north hollywood ca people in the san francisco bay area can get darwin fish from lynn gold try mailing figmo netcom com for net people who go to lynn directly the price is per fish set free atheist stickers t shirts and books write to set free p o box garden grove ca american atheist press aap publish various atheist books critiques of the bible lists of biblical contradictions and so on one such book is the bible handbook by w p ball and g w foote american atheist press pp isbn nd edition bible contradictions absurdities atrocities immoralities contains ball foote the bible contradicts itself aap based on the king james version of the bible write to american atheist press p o box austin tx or cameron road austin tx telephone fax prometheus books sell books including haught s holy horrors see below write to east amherst street buffalo new york telephone an alternate address which may be newer or older is prometheus books glenn drive buffalo ny african americans for humanism an organization promoting black secular humanism and uncovering the history of black freethought they publish a quarterly newsletter aah examiner write to norm r allen jr african americans for humanism p o box buffalo ny united kingdom rationalist press association national secular society islington high street holloway road london n ew london n nl british humanist association south place ethical society lamb s conduit passage conway hall london wc r rh red lion square london wc r rl fax the national secular society publish the freethinker a monthly magazine founded in germany ibka e v internationaler bund der konfessionslosen und atheisten postfach d berlin germany ibka publish a journal miz materialien und informationen zur zeit politisches journal der konfessionslosesn und atheisten hrsg ibka e v miz vertrieb postfach d berlin germany for atheist books write to ibdk internationaler b ucherdienst der konfessionslosen postfach d hannover germany telephone books fiction thomas m disch the santa claus compromise short story the ultimate proof that santa exists all characters and events are fictitious any similarity to living or dead gods uh well walter m miller jr a canticle for leibowitz one gem in this post atomic doomsday novel is the monks who spent their lives copying blueprints from saint leibowitz filling the sheets of paper with ink and leaving white lines and letters edgar pangborn davy post atomic doomsday novel set in clerical states the church for example forbids that anyone produce describe or use any substance containing atoms philip k dick philip k dick dick wrote many philosophical and thought provoking short stories and novels his stories are bizarre at times but very approachable he wrote mainly sf but he wrote about people truth and religion rather than technology although he often believed that he had met some sort of god he remained sceptical amongst his novels the following are of some relevance galactic pot healer a fallible alien deity summons a group of earth craftsmen and women to a remote planet to raise a giant cathedral from beneath the oceans when the deity begins to demand faith from the earthers pot healer joe fernwright is unable to comply a polished ironic and amusing novel a maze of death noteworthy for its description of a technology based religion valis the schizophrenic hero searches for the hidden mysteries of gnostic christianity after reality is fired into his brain by a pink laser beam of unknown but possibly divine origin he is accompanied by his dogmatic and dismissively atheist friend and assorted other odd characters the divine invasion god invades earth by making a young woman pregnant as she returns from another star system unfortunately she is terminally ill and must be assisted by a dead man whose brain is wired to hour easy listening music margaret atwood the handmaid s tale a story based on the premise that the us congress is mysteriously assassinated and fundamentalists quickly take charge of the nation to set it right again the book is the diary of a woman s life as she tries to live under the new christian theocracy women s right to own property is revoked and their bank accounts are closed sinful luxuries are outlawed and the radio is only used for readings from the bible crimes are punished retroactively doctors who performed legal abortions in the old world are hunted down and hanged atwood s writing style is difficult to get used to at first but the tale grows more and more chilling as it goes on various authors the bible this somewhat dull and rambling work has often been criticized however it is probably worth reading if only so that you ll know what all the fuss is about it exists in many different versions so make sure you get the one true version books non fiction peter de rosa vicars of christ bantam press although de rosa seems to be christian or even catholic this is a very enlighting history of papal immoralities adulteries fallacies etc german translation gottes erste diener die dunkle seite des papsttums droemer knaur michael martin atheism a philosophical justification temple university press philadelphia usa a detailed and scholarly justification of atheism contains an outstanding appendix defining terminology and usage in this necessarily tendentious area argues both for negative atheism i e the non belief in the existence of god s and also for positive atheism the belief in the non existence of god s includes great refutations of the most challenging arguments for god particular attention is paid to refuting contempory theists such as platinga and swinburne pages isbn hardcover paperback also available the case against christianity temple university press a comprehensive critique of christianity in which he considers the best contemporary defences of christianity and ultimately demonstrates that they are unsupportable and or incoherent pages isbn james turner without god without creed the johns hopkins university press baltimore md usa subtitled the origins of unbelief in america examines the way in which unbelief whether agnostic or atheistic became a mainstream alternative world view focusses on the period and while considering france and britain the emphasis is on american and particularly new england developments neither a religious history of secularization or atheism without god without creed is rather the intellectual history of the fate of a single idea the belief that god exists pages isbn hardcover x paper george seldes editor the great thoughts ballantine books new york usa a dictionary of quotations of a different kind concentrating on statements and writings which explicitly or implicitly present the person s philosophy and world view includes obscure and often suppressed opinions from many people for some popular observations traces the way in which various people expressed and twisted the idea over the centuries quite a number of the quotations are derived from cardiff s what great men think of religion and noyes views of religion pages isbn paper x richard swinburne the existence of god revised edition clarendon paperbacks oxford this book is the second volume in a trilogy that began with the coherence of theism and was concluded with faith and reason in this work swinburne attempts to construct a series of inductive arguments for the existence of god his arguments which are somewhat tendentious and rely upon the imputation of late th century western christian values and aesthetics to a god which is supposedly as simple as can be conceived were decisively rejected in mackie s the miracle of theism in the revised edition of the existence of god swinburne includes an appendix in which he makes a somewhat incoherent attempt to rebut mackie j l mackie the miracle of theism oxford this posthumous volume contains a comprehensive review of the principal arguments for and against the existence of god it ranges from the classical philosophical positions of descartes anselm berkeley hume et al through the moral arguments of newman kant and sidgwick to the recent restatements of the classical theses by plantinga and swinburne it also addresses those positions which push the concept of god beyond the realm of the rational such as those of kierkegaard kung and philips as well as replacements for god such as lelie s axiarchism the book is a delight to read less formalistic and better written than martin s works and refreshingly direct when compared with the hand waving of swinburne james a haught holy horrors an illustrated history of religious murder and madness prometheus books looks at religious persecution from ancient times to the present day and not only by christians library of congress catalog card number norm r allen jr african american humanism an anthology see the listing for african americans for humanism above gordon stein an anthology of atheism and rationalism prometheus books an anthology covering a wide range of subjects including the devil evil and morality and the history of freethought comprehensive bibliography edmund d cohen the mind of the bible believer prometheus books a study of why people become christian fundamentalists and what effect it has on them george h smith atheism the case against god prometheus books describes the positions of atheism theism and agnosticism reviews many of the arguments used in favour of the existence of god concludes with an assessment of the impact of god on people s lives net resources there s a small mail based archive server at mantis co uk which carries archives of old alt atheism moderated articles and assorted other files for more information send mail to archive server mantis co uk saying help send atheism index and it will mail back a reply mathew
alt.atheism	alt atheism faq overview for new readers archive name atheism overview alt atheism archive name overview last modified april version overview welcome to alt atheism and alt atheism moderated this is the first in a series of regular postings aimed at new readers of the newsgroups many groups of a controversial nature have noticed that new readers often come up with the same questions mis statements or misconceptions and post them to the net in addition people often request information which has been posted time and time again in order to try and cut down on this the alt atheism groups have a series of five regular postings under the following titles alt atheism faq overview for new readers alt atheism faq introduction to atheism alt atheism faq frequently asked questions faq alt atheism faq constructing a logical argument alt atheism faq atheist resources this is article number please read numbers and before posting the others are entirely optional if you are new to usenet 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psuvm psu edu john a johnson dgraham bmers bnr ca douglas graham mayne open cs fsu edu william mayne ajr bigbird hri com andy rosen stoesser ira uka de achim stoesser bosullvn unix tcd ie bryan o sullivan lippard ccit arizona edu james j lippard s b rigel tamu edu s baum ydobyns phoenix princeton edu york h dobyns schroede sdsc edu wayne schroeder baldwin csservera usna navy mil j d baldwin d nibby unhh unh edu dana nibby dempsey kodak com richard c dempsey jmunch hertz elee calpoly edu john david munch pdc dcs ed ac uk paul crowley rz mips complang tuwien ac at richard zach tycchow math mit edu tim chow simon dcs warwick ac uk simon clippingdale phimanen cc helsinki fi pekka himanen and countless others i ve forgotten these articles are free truly free you may copy them and distribute them to anyone you wish however please send any changes or corrections to the author and please do not re post copies of the articles to alt atheism it does nobody any good to have multiple versions of the same document floating around the network finding stuff all of the faq files should be somewhere on your news system here are some suggestions on what to do if you can t find them check the newsgroup alt atheism look for subject lines starting with alt atheism faq check the newsgroup news answers for the same subject lines if you don t find anything in steps or your news system isn t set up correctly and you may wish to tell your system administrator about the problem if you have anonymous ftp access connect to rtfm mit edu go to the directory pub usenet alt atheism and you ll find the latest versions of the faq files there ftp is a a way of copying files between networked computers if you need help in using or getting started with ftp send e mail to mail server rtfm mit edu with send usenet news answers ftp list faq in the body there are other sites which also carry news answers postings the article introduction to the news answers newsgroup carries a list of these sites the article is posted regularly to news answers if you don t have ftp send mail to mail server rtfm mit edu consisting of the following lines send usenet news answers finding sources send usenet alt atheism faq send usenet alt atheism introduction send usenet alt atheism logic send usenet alt atheism resources penultimate resort send mail to mail server mantis co uk consisting of the following lines send atheism faq faq txt send atheism faq logic txt send atheism faq intro txt send atheism faq resource txt and our poor overworked modems will try and send you a copy of the files there s other stuff too interesting commands to try are help and send atheism index last resort mail mathew mantis co uk or post an article to the newsgroup asking how you can get the faq files you should only do this if you ve tried the above methods and they ve failed it s not nice to clutter the newsgroup or people s mailboxes with requests for files it s better than posting without reading the faq though for 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alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes in article markp avignon markp avignon mark pundurs wrote you take lsd and it skews your perception of reality you come down and your perceptions unskew i ve never taken lsd but read about the strange lifes and times of the ashbury heights culture something that was usually profound was the way these lsd trippers mentioned that after their first trip they changed their view of the world in other words taking lsd would change their reference frames which would indicate that deep changes due to let us say rewiring of the brain temporarily will indeed change frames and this leads to the statement that there is no solid reference frame the lsd trippers modified their relative view much of the haight ashbury crowd probably had pre existing dissatisfactions with their lives dissatisfactions ameliorated by mumbo jumbo about new realities the only change i experienced after lsd was to gain the knowledge that i didn t enjoy how lsd twisted my perception mark pundurs any resemblance between my opinions and those of wolfram research inc is purely coincidental
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by theism evidence on apr gmt bobbe vice robert beauchaine lp a yayg said execellent examples of luther s insane rantings deleted gee i m sooooo surprised that they don t teach this part of his ideology in high schools today ed mccreary o edm twisto compaq com if it were not for laughter there would be no tao
alt.atheism	re thoughts on christians on wed apr gmt sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik wrote in article c rgkb fs darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu re conner s questioning of the blissful afterlife as a reason why many joined the early xian church well as i remember jacoby s mythmaker talks about this to cite one source but i m not sure if all christians have read this book in addition my social experiences is from being raised and educated as a lutheran having a lot of christian friends and i even have played in two christian rock bands do you mean hyam maccoby s the mythmaker mike mcangus the truth is still the truth mam mouse cmhnet org even if you choose to ignore it some of the old sig viruses are still the best
alt.atheism	re death penalty was re political atheists on tue apr gmt bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote this is fascinating atheists argue for abortion defend homosexuality as a means of population control insist that the only values are biological and condemn war and capital punishment according to benedikt if something is contardictory it cannot exist which in this case means atheists i suppose what atheists are you talking about imnsho abortion is the womans choice homosexual sex is the choice of the people involved war is sometimes necessary this leaves capital punishment i oppose capital punishemnt because mistakes can happen yes this thread went around with no resolution recently as far as poplulation control i think contraception and education are the best courses of action i would like to understand how an atheist can object to war an excellent means of controlling population growth or to capital punishment i m sorry but the logic escapes me that s because you are again making the assumption that all atheists have some specific mindset and why just capital punishment what is being questioned here the propriety of killing or of punishment what is the basis of the ecomplaint mistakes can happen bill and i could be the victim of such a mistake mike mcangus the truth is still the truth mam mouse cmhnet org even if you choose to ignore it some of the old sig viruses are still the best
alt.atheism	re americans and evolution on tue apr gmt bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote robert singleton bobs thnext mit edu wrote sure it isn t mutually exclusive but it lends weight to i e increases notional running estimates of the posterior probability of the atheist s pitch in the partition and thus necessarily reduces the same quantity in the theist s pitch this is because the divine component falls prey to ockham s razor the phenomenon being satisfactorily explained without it and there being no independent evidence of any such component more detail in the next post occam s razor is not a law of nature it is way of analyzing an argument even so it interesting how often it s cited here and to what end it seems odd that religion is simultaneously condemned as being primitive simple minded and unscientific anti intellectual and childish and yet again condemned as being too complex occam s razor the scientific explanation of things being much more straightforeward and apparently simpler cute characterization bill however there is no inconsistency between the two statements even if one believes that religion is primitive simple minded and unscientific anti intellectual and childish one can still hold the view that religion also adds an unnecessary level of complexity to the explanation the ideas themselves don t have to be complex before being excised by occam s razor they only have to add unnecessarily to the overall complexity of the description which is it to be which is the non essential and how do you know i think the non essential part of an explanatory system is one that adds no predictive capability to the system considering that even scientists don t fully comprehend science due to its complexity and diversity maybe william of occam has performed a lobotomy kept the frontal lobe and thrown everything else away huh this is all very confusing i m sure one of you will straighten me out tough watch it your freudian slip is showing mike mcangus the truth is still the truth mam mouse cmhnet org even if you choose to ignore it some of the old sig viruses are still the best
alt.atheism	re christian morality is on apr gmt dps nasa kodak com dan schaertel wrote in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes yet i am still not a believer is god not concerned with my disposition why is it beneath him to provide me with the evidence i would require to believe the evidence that my personality given to me by this god would find compelling the fact is god could cause you to believe anything he wants you to but think about it for a minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you or because they wanted to love you the responsibility is on you to love god and take a step toward him he promises to be there for you but you have to look for yourself those who doubt this or dispute it have not givin it a sincere effort i and many others on a a have described how we have tried to find god are you saying our efforts have not been sincere for all the effort i have put in there has been no outward nor inward change that i can perceive what s a sincerely searching agnostic or atheist supposed to do when even the search turns up nothing simple logic arguments are folly if you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools of those who tried to trick him with logic our ability to reason is just a spec of creation yet some think it is the ultimate if you rely simply on your reason then you will never know more than you do now to learn you must accept that which you don t know how do you accept that which you don t know do you mean that i must believe in your god in order to believe in your god mike mcangus the truth is still the truth mam mouse cmhnet org even if you choose to ignore it some of the old sig viruses are still the best
alt.atheism	hard soft strong weak kiss on apr gmt timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons wrote mccullou whipple cs wisc edu writes writing to someone else but you probably like me seem to be a soft atheist sorry for the flamage can we get back to using the terms strong atheist and weak atheist rather than this hard atheist and soft atheist i can imagine future discussions with newbies where there is confusion because of the multiplication of descriptions rest deleted mike mcangus the truth is still the truth mam mouse cmhnet org even if you choose to ignore it some of the old sig viruses are still the best
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes simple take out some physics books and start looking for statements which say that there is no objective physics i doubt you will find any you might find statements that there is no objective length or no objective location but no objective physics perhaps you have a different understanding of what physics is if we can t measure anything objectively then the answers we get from physics aren t objective either that s what i mean when i say there s no objective physics sure we can all agree that say f gmm r but that s maths it s only physics when you relate it to the real world and if we can t do that objectively we re stuck of course this displays my blatant bias towards applied science but even theoretical physics gets applied to models of real world situations based on real world observations consider for instance that speed of light in vacuum is invariant this sounds an awful lot like an objective speed of light in vacuum it s an axiom that it s invariant but if the two of us measure it we ll get different answers yes we call that experimental error but it s not really error in the conventional sense in fact if you don t get any that s an error you could argue that the value of c is objective to within some value but i d call that a rather odd usage of the word objective and it opens the way for statements like murder is objectively wrong for all people to within of the total population mathew
alt.atheism	re burden of proof watson sce carleton ca stephen watson writes kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes in article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes fbi officials said cult leader david koresh may have forced followers to remain as flames closed in koresh s armed guard may have injected as many as children with poison to quiet them do the fbi have proof of this yet why ask me i am only quoting the fbi official why not ask the fbi myabe they re lying to cover up or maybe they re telling the truth the children were of course killed by a lone gunman in a second story window who fired eight bullets in the space of two seconds mathew
alt.atheism	re cults vs religions mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes to the media religion and cult have about the same relative connotations as government and terrorist group yes each is a form of the other charley an anarchist no just true words being spoken in jest mathew
alt.atheism	re gulf war and peace niks mccullou snake cs wisc edu mark mccullough writes we seem to be agreeing that the soldiers were just doing their job as best they could following orders proof positive that some people are beyond satire mathew
alt.atheism	re are atoms real was re after years blah blah blah kempmp phoenix oulu fi petri pihko writes mathew mathew mantis co uk wrote what is the difference between a chemist and someone who is taught chemistry at say cambridge university put like this i can t answer i was originally pointing out that your attitude seemed to be i don t know if it really was that chemists tend to ignore all kinds of effects when they re not important yes all scientists do otherwise science would never get anywhere your original posting stated that when doing chemistry it is common to ignore atomic interactions hang about not atomic interactions in general just specific ones which are deemed unimportant like gravitational interactions between ions which are so small they re drowned out by electrostatic effects and so on has there been some revolution in teaching methods in the last four years perhaps this revolution has yet to reach cambridge my now i ll get flamed for sure oh probably they still make people memorize equations and ir spectra maybe in a few decades they ll discover the revolutionary data book technique bitter and twisted mathew
alt.atheism	re history texts was ancient references to christianity i wrote the diaries of the followers of the maharishi formerly of oregon are historical evidence in article p psilink com robert knowles p psilink com writes are you confusing bhagwan rajneesh sp with the maharishi mahesh yogi here by any chance i believe that maharishi is titular someone please correct me if i am wrong thus maharishi rajneesh is a different person from maharishi mahesh but they are both maharishis russell
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article r kh itp horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer says specifically i d like to know what relativism concludes when two people grotesquely disagree is it a both are right b one of them is wrong and sometimes though perhaps rarely we have a pretty good idea who it is c one of them is wrong but we never have any information as to who so we make our best guess if we really must make a decision d the idea of a right moral judgement is meaningless implying that whether peace is better than war e g is a meaningless question and need not be discussed for it has no correct answer e something else a short positive assertion would be nice as i hope you can tell b and c are actually predicated on the assumption that values are real so statements like these can t consistently derive from the relativist assumption that values aren t part of objective reality i am a relativist who would like to answer your question but the way you phrase the question makes it unanswerable the concepts of right and wrong or correct incorrect or true false belong to the domain of epistemological rather than moral questions it makes no sense to ask if a moral position is right or wrong although it is legitimate to ask if it is good or better than another position let me illustrate this point by looking at the psychological derivatives of epistemology and ethics perception and motivation respectively one can certainly ask if a percept is right correct true veridical or wrong incorrect false illusory but it makes little sense to ask if a motive is true or false on the other hand it is strange to ask whether a percept is morally good or evil but one can certainly ask that question about motives therefore your suggested answers a c simply can t be considered they assume you can judge the correctness of a moral judgment now the problem with d is that it is double barrelled i agree with the first part that the rightness of a moral position is a meaningless question for the reasons stated above but that is irrelevant to the alleged implication not an implication at all that one cannot feel peace is better than war i certainly can make value judgments bad better best without asserting the correctness of the position sorry for the lengthy dismissal of a d my short e answer is that when two individuals grotesquely disagree on a moral issue neither is right correct or wrong incorrect they simply hold different moral values feelings john a johnson j j psuvm psu edu department of psychology penn state dubois campus penn state is not responsible for my behavior a ruthless doctrinaire avoidance of degeneracy is a degeneracy of another sort getting drunk and picking up bar ladies and writing metaphysics is a part of life from lila by r pirsig
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is this is swf in another indirect post via dan in article apr asl dl nec com duffy aslss asl dl nec com joseph duffy writes in article apr microsoft com russpj microsoft com russ paul jones writes the same way that any theory is proven false you examine the predicitions that the theory makes and try to observe them if you don t or if you observe things that the theory predicts wouldn t happen then you have some evidence against the theory if the theory can t be modified to incorporate the new observations then you say that it is false but how does one handle the nonrepeatability of the experiment in many types of experiments the prediction is that the observed phenomena will happen again and be capable of being observed for example in chemistry someone may predict the outcome of a chemical reaction and then actually observe that reaction repeatedly there are several problems here first you are discussing only experimental procedures observational procedures are also useful the main criterion is attempting to verify an idea by using it to make prediction about as yet unmade observations the observations could be the result of an experiment or they could be obsevations of activity occuring spontaneossly in nature or they could even be observations of the lasting results of events long past all that matters is that the observations be new this is what prediction is about in science it is not about predicting the future except in this very restricted sense secondly repeatability can also take many forms it is really just the requirement that independent observers be able to verify the results the observation of a fossil is repeatable since any qualified observer may look at it this is why the specimens are reqtined in a museum also there is the implicit prediction that future fossil finds will correspond to the current one new fossils are found often enough that this is tested regularly many times a new fossil actually falsifies some conclusion made on the basis of previous fossils unfortunately for you the models that were falsified have alway been peripheral to the model of evolution we now have for instance the front legs of tyrannosaurus rex turned out to have tremendous muscles rather than being weakly endowed as previously believed so in fact histoircal science findings are repeatable in the necessary sense just becuase you cannot go out and repeat the original event does not make it impossible to make valid observations this is not to say that biologists would not go coo coo if extra terrestrial life were discovered that could make the determination of the process of abiogenesis relatively easy sarima teradata com formerly tdatirv sarima or stanley friesen elsegundoca ncr com sarima teradata com formerly tdatirv sarima or stanley friesen elsegundoca ncr com
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes the intent of my post as i remember it was to show that you cannot argue against any religion or ideology for that matter by the actions of those who claim to be its followers you have to look at the teachings of the religion or the principles of the ideology itself there is no getting around this so to argue against islam you have to go to the qur an bringing up khomeini or anyone else is relevant to discussing khomeini but not necessarily relevant to discussing islam as a religion sorry fred but for the purposes under discussion here i must disagree your point is true only in the sense that one cannot argue against communism by reference to the chinese or soviet empires since those did not represent true communism in judging the practical consequences of islam as a force to contend with in the world today it is precisely the khomeini s of the world the rushdie fatwa supporters and perhaps more importantly the reaction of the world muslim community to those extremists that we must look to perhaps unfortunately from your perspective most people are not concerned with whether islam is the right religion for them or whether the qur an could be used as a guidebook for a hypothetical utopia but how islam affects the world around them or what their lives might be like if islam gains in influence when i consider such possibilities it is with not inconsiderable fear jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	re hoban was re the inimitable rushdie in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes interchange on hoban deleted this post of mine also illustrates that i am not simply a reactionary who hates any book which doesn t go out of its way to avoid upsetting religionists only those you haven t actually read sorry but the irony remains i reiterate for the nth time also that i don t agree with k s fatwa nor do i support censorship my point in the original thread has been to show why rushdie is not particularly due sympathy by those who hold their religion in high esteem and don t enjoy seeing things which slander it like the story of the satanic verses as opposed to the rushdie s tsv played with for amusement so although you don t agree with the fatwa and apparently don t think rushdie should be killed for his book yet you think he is not due sympathy for being being under this threat furthermore you base this reaction solely on the fact that he wrote about a particular well known story which if true might reflect poorly on the absolute truth of your religion yet this opinion is formed without recourse to actually looking to see how the story is used in context accepting at face value the widespread propaganda on just what this book contains and what the author s motivations are and then you come forward and recommend another book which touches on presumably plays with religious historical material because you find its overall presentation neutral jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	re death penalty was re political atheists bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes this is fascinating atheists argue for abortion defend homosexuality as a means of population control insist that the only values are biological and condemn war and capital punishment according to benedikt if something is contardictory it cannot exist which in this case means atheists i suppose i would like to understand how an atheist can object to war an excellent means of controlling population growth or to capital punishment i m sorry but the logic escapes me first you seem to assume all atheists think alike an atheist does not believe in the existence of a god our opinions on issues such as capital punishment and abortion however vary greatly if you were attacking the views of a particular atheist benedikt i presume then please present your argument as such and do not lump us all together as for the issues let s start with abortion personally i do not support abortion as a means of population control or contraception after the fact however i support the right of any woman to have an abortion regardless of what my personal views may be because it would be arrogant of me to tell any individual what he she may or may not do to his her body and the domain of legislators should not extend into the uterus that s my opinion and i am sure many atheists and theists would disagree with me i do not defend homosexuality as a means of population control but i certainly defend it as an end to itself i think most homosexuals would be angered to hear of anyone characterizing their personal relationship as nothing more than a conscious effort to keep population levels down as for atheists believing all values are biological i have no idea what you re talking about finally there are the issues of war and capital punishment an atheist can object to either one just as easily as a theist might you seem to be hung up on some supposed conspiratorial link between atheism and population control could this be the atheist cause you were referring to a few posts back kevin marshall computer science department virginia tech marshall csugrad cs vt edu blacksburg virginia
alt.atheism	re faith and dogma tgk cs toronto edu todd kelley writes faith and dogma are irrational the faith and dogma part of any religion are responsible for the irrationality of the individuals i disagree in the end the individual is responsible for his her own irrationality the individual s belief in some dogmatic religion is a symptom of that irrationality have you noticed that philosophers tend to be atheists atheists and agnostics i would imagine but yes that was my point an atheist would theoretically be just as ill equipped to study the philosophy of religion as a christian and yet there is a persistence of atheists among the ranks of philosophers therefore the conflict between one s religious beliefs or lack thereof and the ability to be a philosopher must not be as great as you assert the fact that most philosophers may be non religious was a secondary point science as would be practiced by atheists in contrast has a built in defence against faith and dogma as opposed to science practiced by theists be careful here science does have a built in defence against faith and dogma skepticism unfortunately it is not foolproof there is that wonderful little creature known as the theory many of us believe in the theory of evolution we have no absolute proof that this theory is true so why do we believe it because it makes more sense than there is quite a bit of faith involved here a scientist holds sacred the idea that beliefs should change to suit whatever is the best information available at the time and and and a scientist understands that any current beliefs are deficient in some way well not all current beliefs are deficient but basically i agree can you see the difference science views beliefs as being flawed and new information can be obtained to improve them ideally this is true in reality though you have to acknowledge that scientists are human scientists have egos and biases some scientists assume a particular theory is true refuse to admit the flaws in that theory because of ego problems or whatever and proceed to spend their time and money trying to come up with absolute proof for the theory remember cold fusion by the way i wasn t aware mass suicide was a problem waco and jonestown were isolated incidents mass suicides are far from common clinton and the fbi would love for you to convince them of this it would save the us taxpayer a lot of money if you could not really i agree that we spent far too much money on the waco crisis i believe especially considering the outcome my point was that mass suicides in the u s are rare jonestown was in guyana incidentally although we footed the bill for the clean up and the u s has far more important issues to address compare the number of u s citizens who have died in mass suicides with say the number of u s soldiers who died during one week of the vietnam war and you will see my point kevin marshall computer science department virginia tech marshall csugrad cs vt edu blacksburg virginia
alt.atheism	re rawlins debunks creationism in article r dglinnkv ctron news ctron com king ctron com john e king writes kv iastate edu warren vonroeschlaub writes neither i nor webster s has ever heard of francis hitchings who is he please do not answer with a well known evolutionist or some other such informationless phrase he is a paleontologist and author of the neck of the giraffe the quote was taken from pg jack for your information i checked the library of congress catalog and they list the following books by francis hitching earth magic the neck of the giraffe or where darwin went wrong pendulum the psi connection the world atlas of mysteries tom scharle scharle irishmvs room g computing center scharle lukasiewicz cc nd edu university of notre dame notre dame in usa
alt.atheism	re rawlins debunks creationism in article ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes in article c sncl j o usenet ucs indiana edu adpeters sunflower bio indiana edu andy peters writes evolution as i have said before is theory and fact it is exactly the same amount of each as the existence of atoms and the existence of gravity if you accept the existence of atoms and gravity as fact then you should also accept the existence of evolution as fact andy i don t accept atoms or gravity as fact either they are extremely useful mathematical models to describe physical observations we can make other posters have aptly explained the atomic model gravity too is very much a theory no gravity waves have even been detected but we have a very useful model that describes much of the behavior on objects by this thing we call gravity gravity however is not a fact it is a theoretical model used to talk about how objects behave in our physical environment newton thought gravity was a simple vector force einstein a wave both are very useful models that have no religious overtones or requirements of faith unless of course you want to demand that it is a factual physical entity described exactly the way the theory now formulated talks about it that takes a great leap of faith which of course is what religion takes evolution is no different jim halat halat bear com bear stearns whatever doesn t kill you will only serve to annoy you nyc i speak only for myself what do you accept as a fact the roundness of the earth after all the ancient greeks thought it was a sphere and then newton said it was a spheroid and now people say it s a geoid yourself isn t your personal identity just a theoretical construct to make sense of memories feelings perceptions i m trying to think of anything that would be a fact for you give some examples and let s see how factual they are by your criteria btw what are your criteria gravity is not a fact is that a fact how about newton s and einstein s thoughts about gravity is it a fact that they had those thoughts i don t see how any of the things that you are asserting are any more factual than things like gravity atoms or evolution in short before i am willing to consider your concept of what a fact is i m going to have to have as a minimum some examples of what you think are facts tom scharle scharle irishmvs room g computing center scharle lukasiewicz cc nd edu university of notre dame notre dame in usa
alt.atheism	re mottos to replace in dog we trust pepke dirac scri fsu edu eric pepke writes in mammon we trust hey this is just a piece of paper spend me quickly this is your god from john carpenter s they live natch steve the lurking horror stelter sjs uxa cso uiuc edu
alt.atheism	re fake god holy lies in article apr zeus calpoly edu dmcaloon tuba calpoly edu david mcaloon writes remember einstien said imagination is greater than knowledge then einstein should have had lunch with me at the tien fu on castro street yesterday when they handed me a fortune cookie that said he who has imagination but not knowledge has wings but no feet jon
alt.atheism	re free moral agency see i told you there was an atheist mythology thanks for proving my point bill
alt.atheism	re free moral agency maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com wrote but how do we know that you re representing the real christians bill you re an asshole get lost maddi i see that you still can t grasp the obvious is it because your are devious by nature or can you only find fault with an argument by misrepresenting it i plainly said that i was stating the christian position as i understand it i did not say whether i agree with it since my point was that the only flaws in that position are those atheists invent i have never claimed to be an expert on anything and especially christianity but i have made it an object of pretty intense study over the years so i feel qualified to discuss what its general propositions are what offends you is that i have exposed the distortions and misrepresentations of christianity you contrive and then rail against which seems more like the classical strawman dodge than what i said this leaves you with nothing but to attack but me as usual you avoid the larger issues by picking away at the insignificant stuff why not find one particular thing in my post that we can discuss or can you even tell me what the issues are bill
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article c uul n c darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes many of the atheists posting here argue against their own parody of religion they create some ridiculous caricature of a religion and then attack the believers within that religion and the religion itself as ridiculous by their own devices they establish a new religion a mythology you mean bobby mozumder is a myth we wondered about that the point of course is to erect an easy target and deflect the disputants away from the real issue atheism the fictional christian or moslem or jew who is supposed to believe the distorted representation of their beliefs presented here is therefore made to seem a fool and his her arguments can thereby be made to appear ludicrous the mythology is the misrepresentations of religion used here as fact you mean bobby mozumder didn t really post here we wondered about that too so mr conner is bobby mozumder a myth a performing artist a real moslem a crackpot a provocateur you know everything and read all minds why don t you tell us jon
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article c uul n c darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes many of the atheists posting here argue against their own parody of religion they create some ridiculous caricature of a religion and then attack the believers within that religion and the religion itself as ridiculous by their own devices they establish a new religion a mythology that is not an atheism mythology in any sense of the word religious paradoy would be significantly more appropriate the nd part is rendered null and void by the simple fact that i do know several strong atheists i am sure that others do i myself am strong in the sense that i find the standard concept of god without any meaning any attempt to bring meaning either results in the destruction of the viability of language or in internal self contradiction the concept of strong atheism is not just a whimsical fantasy they and i exist your strawman is pointless and weak private note to jennifer fakult this post may contain one or more of the following sarcasm cycnicism irony or humor please be aware of this possibility and do not allow yourself to be confused and or thrown for a loop if in doubt assume all of the above the owners of this account do not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability to recognize any of the above read at your own risk jennifer
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article c uxj pj darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes see i told you there was an atheist mythology thanks for proving my point bill considering what you quoted and refered to was blank i must say touche of course you are correct there is no atheistic mythology employed on this board or if there is it is null and void private note to jennifer fakult this post may contain one or more of the following sarcasm cycnicism irony or humor please be aware of this possibility and do not allow yourself to be confused and or thrown for a loop if in doubt assume all of the above the owners of this account do not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability to recognize any of the above read at your own risk jennifer
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article c uzpe p darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes what offends you is that i have exposed the distortions and misrepresentations of christianity you contrive and then rail against which seems more like the classical strawman dodge than what i said this leaves you with nothing but to attack but me as usual you avoid the larger issues by picking away at the insignificant stuff why not find one particular thing in my post that we can discuss or can you even tell me what the issues are let me guess you re not a psycho analyst in real life but you play one on alt atheism right is esp something you have been given by god private note to jennifer fakult this post may contain one or more of the following sarcasm cycnicism irony or humor please be aware of this possibility and do not allow yourself to be confused and or thrown for a loop if in doubt assume all of the above the owners of this account do not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability to recognize any of the above read at your own risk jennifer
alt.atheism	re death penalty gulf war long in article apr daffy cs wisc edu mccullou snake cs wisc edu mark mccullough writes in article optima cs arizona edu sham cs arizona edu shamim zvonko mohamed writes bullshit in the gulf massacre of all ordnance used was smart the rest that s was just regular dumb ol iron bombs and stuff i have heard figures closer to and of the that was the smart stuff hit again try to follow me here that means of this smart arsenal missed most figures i have seen place the hit ratio close to which is still far higher than your i have a source that says that to date the civilian death count er excuse me i mean collateral damage is about i have never seen any source that was claiming such a figure please post the source so its reliability can be judged obviously we have different sources bill moyers who happens to be a theist to tie this to alt atheism in his pbs documentary after the war is my main source i think i still have it on videotape others include the nation and the progressive the rest of the article is mere rationalisation you may claim that sanitation plants are strategic legitimate targets but what happens to the civilians in a city with no sewer system what happens to the civilians when you destroy water purification plants and when hospitals can t handle the resultant epidemics because there is no more electricity and what exactly are your sources we have all i m sure seen postol s interviews in the media where he demostrates how the pentagon lied about the patriot s effectiveness what is your source for the effectiveness you claim in any case i don t know if this is relevant to alt atheism how about if we move it somewhere else s shamim mohamed uunet noao cmcl arizona shamim shamim cs arizona edu take this cross and garlic here s a mezuzah if he s jewish a page of the koran if he s a muslim and if he s a zen buddhist you re on your own member of the league for programming freedom write to lpf uunet uu net
alt.atheism	re the qur an and atheists was re jewish settlers demolish a mosque in gaza in article p psilink com robert knowles p psilink com writes date sun apr gmt from fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au the qur an talks about those who take their lusts and worldly desires for their god i think this probably encompasses most atheists fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au as well as all the muslim men screwing fourteen year old prostitutes in thailand got a better quote i wonder if the above quote forms the justification for athiesm and the equanimity with which their belief is arrived at
alt.atheism	re free moral agency andrew newell tan psuvm psu edu wrote i think you re letting atheist mythology confuse you on the issue of webster myth a traditional or legendary story a belief whose truth is accepted uncritically how does that qualify indeed it s almost oxymoronic a rather amusing instance i ve found that most atheists hold almost no atheist views as accepted uncritically especially the few that are legend many are trying to explain basic truths as myths do but they don t meet the other criterions andrew the myth to which i refer is the convoluted counterfeit athiests have created to make religion appear absurd rather than approach religion including christainity in a rational manner and debating its claims as the are stated atheists concoct outrageous parodies and then hold the religious accountable for beliefs they don t have what is more accurately oxymoric is the a term like reasonable atheist bill divine justice according to the most fundamental doctrines of christianity when the first man sinned he was at that time the you accuse him of referencing mythology then you procede to launch your own xtian mythology this time meeting all the requirements of myth here s a good example of of what i said above read the post again i said acoording to which means i am referring to christian doctrine as i understand it if i am speaking for myself you ll know it my purpose in posting was to present a basic overview of christain doctrines since it seemed germane bill with those who pretend not to know what is being said and what it means when atheists claim that they do not know if god exists and don t know what he wants they contradict the bible which clearly says that everyone knows the authority of the bible is its claim to be should i repeat what i wrote above for the sake of getting it across you may trust the bible but your trusting it doesn t make it any more credible to me if the bible says that everyone knows that s clearly reason to doubt the bible because not everyone knows your alleged god s alleged existance again i am paraphrasing christian doctrine which is very clear on this point your dispute is not with me bill refuted while the species wide condemnation is justified those that claim that there is no evidence for the existence of god or that his will is unknown must deliberately ignore the bible the ignorance itself is no excuse no they don t have to ignore the bible the bible is far from universally accepted the bible is not a proof of god it is only a proof that some people have thought that there was a god or does it prove even that they might have been writing it as series of fiction short stories as in the case of dionetics assuming the writers believed it the only thing it could possibly prove is that they believed it and that s ignoring the problem of whether or not all the interpretations and biblical philosophers were correct there are people who have truly never heard of the bible again read the faq here again you miss the point the bible itself is not the point it s what it contains it makes no difference who accpets the bible or even who s unaware of its existence christians hold that it applies universally because mankind shares the same nature and the same fate and the same innate knowledge of god see above if you read my post with same care as read the faq we wouldn t be having this conversation bill freedom you are free to ignore god in the same way you are free to ignore gravity and the consequences are inevitable and well known in both cases that an atheist can t accept the evidence means only bzzt wrong answer gravity is directly there it doesn t stop exerting a direct and rationally undeniable influence if you ignore it god on the other hand doesn t generally show up in the supermarket except on the tabloids god doesn t exert a rationally undeniable influence gravity is obvious gods aren t as i said the evidence is there you just don t accept it here at least we agree bill secondly human reason is very comforatble with the concept of god so much so that it is in itself intrinsic to our nature human reason always comes back to the question of god in every generation and in no human reason hasn t always come back to the existance of god it has usually come back to the existance of god in other words it doesn t generally come back to the xtian god it comes back to whether there is any god and in much of oriental philosophic history it generally doesn t pop up as the idea of a god so much as the question of what natural forces are and which ones are out there from a world wide view human nature just makes us wonder how the universe came to be and or what force s are currently in control a natural tendancy to believe in god only exists in religious wishful thinking yes human reason does always come back to the existence of god we re having this discussion are we not bill i said all this to make the point that christianity is eminently reasonable that divine justice is just and human nature is much different than what atheists think it is whether you agree or not you certainly are not correct on human nature you are at the least basing your views on a completely eurocentric approach try looking at the outside world as well when you attempt to sum up all of humanity well this is interesting truth is to be determined by it politically correct content granted it s extremely unhip to be a wasp male and anything european is contemptable but i thought this kind of dialogue the purpose of a a was to get at the truth of things but then i remember the oxymoron reasonalble atheist and i understand bill
alt.atheism	re free moral agency james felder spbach lerc nasa gov wrote are you saying that their was a physical adam and eve and that all humans are direct decendents of only these two human beings then who were cain and able s wives couldn t be their sisters because a e didn t have daughters were they non humans okay all humans are direct descendents of of a bunch of hopeful monsters the human race didn t evolve from one set parents but from thousands do you really base your atheist on this considering that something like out of humans on this planet don t know instinctively that the christian god exist the claim of instinctive knowledge doesn t look like it hold much water or are you saying that the billion non christians in the world must fight this instinctive urge to acknowledge god and jc did i say that people were christians by nature or did i say that christians hold that everyone knows of the god the christians worship i would have thought the distinction obvious sorry read my post again and see what i really said from what you ve written i think you are just being agumentative also your word wrap is screwed up or you need to shift to columns text bill
alt.atheism	re free moral agency kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com wrote i agree i had a hard feeling not believing my grand grand mother who told me of elves dancing outside barns in the early mornings i preferred not to accept it even if her statement provided the truth itself life is hard kent truly a brilliant rebuttal apparently you are of the opinion that ridicule is a suitable substitute for reason you ll find plenty of company a a bill
alt.atheism	re cruel kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes i don t think so although some forms of execution are painful the electric chair looks particularly so i think the pain is relatively short lived drawing and quartering on the other hand looks very painful and the victim wouldn t die right away he d bleed to death i d imagine ah so a cruel punishment is not just if it is painful as you origionally stated it is about long term pain eg non short lived why this sudden chance in your stance i don t think i ve changed my stance at all my original stance was that a painless execution was not a cruel one i didn t say what would be considered cruel only that a painless death wasn t now cruelty must involve some sort of suffering i believe i don t think someone that gets shot in the head or electrocuted really suffers very much even a hanging probably produces one sharp instance of pain but it s over so quickly hmmmmm pardon could it be that a counter example has been made which renders your previous stance null and void why don t you admit that your previous stance is incorrect or if you somehow managed to slip up and misstated your origional stance why not admit it no well again i stated that a painless death isn t cruel but i don t think i stated that all painful executions are cruel i think that some are cruel depending on the nature and duration of the pain by the way how long is too long anything more than an instant i guess any death by suffocation asphyxiation or blood loss would be cruel i think this includes the gas chamber and drawing and quartering i d say that any pain that lasts say over twenty seconds or so would be too long but this may be an arbitrary cutoff i suppose keith
alt.atheism	re christian morality is dan schaertel dps nasa kodak com wrote in article ousrvr oulu fi kempmp phoenix oulu fi petri pihko writes i love god just as much as she loves me if she wants to seduce me she ll know what to do but if he she did you would probably consider it rape of course not i would think that would be great fun not having ever felt the joy and peace the christians speak of with a longing gaze this is not what i got when i believed i just tried to hide my fear of getting punished for something i never was sure of the bible is hopelessly confusing for someone who wants to know for sure god did not answer in the end i found i had been following a mass delusion a lie i can t believe in a being who refuses to give a slightest hint of her existence obviously there are many christians who have tried and do believe so i suggest they should honestly reconsider the reasons why they believe and analyse their position in fact it is amusing to note in this context that many fundamentalist publications tell us exactly the opposite one should not examine one s belief critically i ll tell you something i left out of my testimony i posted to this group two months ago a day after i finally found out my faith is over i decided to try just one more time the same cycle of emotional responses fired once again but this time the delusion lasted only a couple of hours i told my friend in a phone that it really works thank god just to think about it again when i hung up i had to admit that i had lied and fallen prey to the same illusion no one asks you to swallow everything in fact jesus warns against it but let me ask you a question do you beleive what you learn in history class or for that matter anything in school i mean it s just what other people have told you and you don t want to swallow what others say right i used to believe what i read in books when i was younger or what other people told me but i grew more and more skeptical the more i read i learned what it means to use reason as a student of chemistry i had to perform a qualitative analysis of a mixture of two organic compounds in the lab i hated experiments like this they are old fashioned and increase the student s workload considerably besides i had to do it twice since i failed in my first attempt however i think i ll never forget the lesson no matter how strongly you believe the structure of the unknown is x it may still be y it is very tempting to jump into conclusions take a leap of faith assure oneself ignore the data which is inconsistent but it can still be wrong i found out that i was after all using exactly the same mechanism to believe in god mental self assurance suspension of fear filtering of information in other words it was only me no god playing any part the life death and resurection of christ is documented historical fact oh and i had better believe this dan many ufo stories are much better documented than the resurrection of jesus the resurrection is documented quite haphazardly in the bible it seems the authors did not pay too much attention to which wild rumour to leave out besides the ends of the gospels probably contain later additions and insertions for instance the end of mark is missing from many early texts says my bible jesus may have lived and died but he was probably misunderstood as much as anything else you learn how do you choose what to believe and what not to this is easy i believe that the world exists independent of my mind and that logic and reason can be used to interpret and analyse what i observe nothing else need to be taken on faith i will go by the evidence it makes no difference whether i believe george washington existed or not i assume that he did considering the vast amount of evidence presented there is no way to get into a sceptical heart you can not say you have given a sincere effort with the attitude you seem to have you must trust not just go to church and participate in it s activities were you ever willing to die for what you believed a liar how do you know what my attitude was try reading your bible again i was willing to die for my faith those who do are usually remembered as heroes at least among those who believe dan do you think i m lying when i say i believed firmly for years it seems it is very difficult to admit that someone who has really believed does not do so anymore but i can t go on lying to myself blind trust is dangerous and i was just another blind led by the blind but if god really wants me she ll know what to do i m willing i just don t know whether she exists looking at the available evidence it looks like she doesn t petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics is the truth pihatie c finou oulu fi physics is the rule of sf oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry is the game
alt.atheism	upi mother files complaint over boy scouts by default followups to newsgroups a short excerpt brookfield wis upi a mother has filed a complaint with the elmbrook school board alleging her son s elementary school and its parent teacher organization show discrimination by supporting the boy scouts gisele klemp said wednesday the pto s sponsorship of a boy scout troop and cub scout pack that meet at hillside elementary school in surbarban milwaukee is discrimination because the boy scouts ban homosexuals pto president gail pludeman disputed the charges of discrimination and said she believes the boy scouts are beneficial carl kadie i do not represent any organization this is just me kadie cs uiuc edu
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article c v t dq darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes okay all humans are direct descendents of of a bunch of hopeful monsters the human race didn t evolve from one set parents but from thousands do you really base your atheist on this in article c v zp dq darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes truly a brilliant rebuttal apparently you are of the opinion that ridicule is a suitable substitute for reason you ll find plenty of company a a bill conner meet bill conner jon
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes only when the sun starts to orbit the earth will i accept the bible did you forget that two spinning skaters are in orbit around each other
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell in article apr wam umd edu willdb wam umd edu william david battles says in article apr ncsu edu aiken news ncsu edu wayne nmi aiken writes jsn psuvm psu edu wrote you blashephemers you will all go to hell for not believing in god e b prepared for your eternal damnation did someone leave their terminal unattended again probably not the jesus freak s post is probably jsn psuvm penn state is just loaded to the hilt with bible bangers i use to go there vomit and it was the reason i left they even had a group try to stop playing rock music in the dining halls one year cuz they deemed it satanic kampus krusade for khrist people run the damn place for the most part except the liberal arts departments they are the safe havens sounds like you were going to a different penn state or something kampus krusade for khrist is very vocal here but they really have little power to get anything done sometimes it seems like there are a lot of them because they re generally more vocal than their opposition but there really aren t that many krusaders the liberals tend to keep to themselves if they can help it since all they really want is to be allowed to go about their own lives the way they want to so you don t hear from or about most of them the bible bangers stand out because they want everyone to be forced to live according to bible banger rules the krusaders certainly don t run this place i d say we ve got a rather average mix of people here much like the rest of the u s and just like everywhere else some factions are louder than others andrew
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article c v mr z darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes the myth to which i refer is the convoluted counterfeit athiests have created to make religion appear absurd rather than approach religion including christainity in a rational manner and debating its claims as the are stated atheists concoct outrageous parodies and then hold the religious accountable for beliefs they don t have what is more accurately oxymoric is the a term like reasonable atheist they are religious parodies not atheistic paradies please substantiate that they are parodies and are outrageous specifically why is the iup any more outrageous than many religions private note to jennifer fakult this post may contain one or more of the following sarcasm cycnicism irony or humor please be aware of this possibility and do not allow yourself to be confused and or thrown for a loop if in doubt assume all of the above the owners of this account do not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability to recognize any of the above read at your own risk jennifer
alt.atheism	re cruel in article r bkpinno s gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes no well again i stated that a painless death isn t cruel but i don t think i stated that all painful executions are cruel i think that some are cruel depending on the nature and duration of the pain but hanging is certainly painful or do you not let the condemned know they are going to die anything more than an instant i guess any death by suffocation asphyxiation or blood loss would be cruel i think this includes the gas chamber and drawing and quartering i d say that any pain that lasts say over twenty seconds or so would be too long but this may be an arbitrary cutoff i suppose hanging is not supposed to be very pleasant i believe that in actuality it is not quick and clean however gas chambers can be quite non painful heck why not give them a good time suffication by nitrious oxide private note to jennifer fakult this post may contain one or more of the following sarcasm cycnicism irony or humor please be aware of this possibility and do not allow yourself to be confused and or thrown for a loop if in doubt assume all of the above the owners of this account do not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability to recognize any of the above read at your own risk jennifer
alt.atheism	re books stuff about hard to find atheist books deleted perhaps the infiltration of fundies onto school boards city councils etc has something to do with why you can t find alternative media
alt.atheism	re cults vs religions bill ray ray engr latech edu wrote james thomas green jgreen trumpet calpoly edu wrote so in conclusion it can be shown that there is essentially no logical argument which clearly differentiates a cult from a religion i challenge anyone to produce a distinction which is clear and can t be easily knocked down how about this one a religion is a cult which has stood the test of time just like history is written by the winners and not the losers from what i ve seen of religions a religion is just a cult that was so vile and corrupt it was able to exert it s doctrine using political and military measures perhaps if koresh withstood the onslaught for another couple of months he would have started attracting more converts due to his strength hence becoming a full religion and not just a cult carl christensen dept of computer science christen astro ocis temple edu temple university curiouser and curiouser lc philadelphia pa usa
alt.atheism	re nicknames cmtan iss nus sg tan chade meng dan writes somebody forgotten me no nickname tan chade meng chinese have nicknames in the front the unenlightened one i thought your nickname was unenlightened maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california kids please don t try this at home remember i post professionally
alt.atheism	re asimov stamp in article c h h d dcs ed ac uk pdc dcs ed ac uk paul crowley writes quoting schnitzi eustis cs ucf edu mark schnitzius in article schnitzi eustis i m sure all the religious types would get in a snit due to asimov s atheism can someone confirm this someone told me that asimov converted to christianity at some point or something does anyone have any good quotes what absolutely not no way asimov was a lifelong atheist and said so many times right until his death judging from the many stories he told about his own life he felt culturally closest to judaism which makes sense he was born jewish ed ed wente llnl gov
alt.atheism	re free moral agency dean kaflowitz decay cbnewsj cb att com wrote i think you re letting atheist mythology great start i realize immediately that you are not interested in discussion and are going to thump your babble at me i would much prefer an answer from ms healy who seems to have a reasonable and reasoned approach to things say aren t you the creationist guy who made a lot of silly statements about evolution some time ago duh gee then we must be talking christian mythology now i was hoping to discuss something with a reasonable logical person but all you seem to have for your side is a repetition of the same boring mythology i ve seen a thousand times before i am deleting the rest of your remarks unless i spot something that approaches an answer because they are merely a repetition of some uninteresting doctrine or other and contain no thought at all i have to congratulate you though bill you wouldn t know a logical argument if it bit you on the balls such a persistent lack of function in the face of repeated attempts to assist you in learning which i have seen in this forum and others in the past speaks of a talent that goes well beyond my own meager abilities i just don t seem to have that capacity for ignoring outside influences dean kaflowitz dean re read your comments do you think that merely characterizing an argument is the same as refuting it do you think that ad hominum attacks are sufficient to make any point other than you disapproval of me do you have any contribution to make at all bill
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is mark mccullough mccullou snake cs wisc edu wrote in article ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes atoms are not objective they aren t even real what scientists call an atom is nothing more than a mathematical model that describes certain physical observable properties of our surroundings all of which is subjective jim halat this deserves framing it really does atoms aren t even real tell me then those atoms we have seen with electron microscopes are atoms now so what are they figments of our imaginations the evidence that atoms are real is overwhelming but i won t bother with most evidence at the moment you would have us believe that what the eye perceives as images are actaully there as perceived this may be interesting i thought that an electron microscope was used because no wavelength of light can illuminate any object of atomic scale if this image is to have useful resolution wouldn t the illuminating sources wavelength have to be several orders of magnitude less than size of thing observed if an atom is a probablity cloud lower resolutions would give the appearance of solidity but it seems fairly certain that an atom is not an object is any conventional sense obviously i am not a physicist but the question does have ramification of a philosophic nature anyway just a stray thought carry on bill
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is mike cobb cobb alexia lis uiuc edu wrote very true length of time for discussions on creationism vs evolutionism atheists and christians have been debating since and still debate with unabated passion mike i ve seen referrences to creation vs evolution several times in a a and i have question is either point of view derived from direct observation can either be scientific i wonder if the whole controversy is more concerned with the consequences of the truth rather than the truth itself both sides seem to hold to a philosophical outcome and i can t help wondering which came first as i ve pointed out elsewhere my view of human nature makes me believe that there is no way of knowing anyhthing objectively all knowledge is inherently subjective so in the context of a a would you take a stand based on what you actually know to be true or on what you want to be true and how can you tell the difference bill
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com wrote in article c mw qr darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote i d say that what one chooses to observe and how the observation is interpreted and what significance it s given depends a great deal on the values of the observer science is a human activity and as such is subject to the same potential for distortion as any other human activity the myth that scientists are above moral influence or ethical concern that their knowledge can be abstacted whole and pure from nature untainted by the biases of the scientist is nonsense bill this is wonderfully phrased i assume you understand that your statement is also undermining such human constructs as religion as well kent i ll accept this as a compliment although i m always a little paranoid when visiting a a thanks yes i do know the extent of the statements relevence it s what i think of as human nature i m not sure it undermines either religion or atheism since both claim special knowledge about the truth and since such claims are always suspect all we can learn from it is that humans are a very arrogant species my point is that we cannot ignore human nature when examining human claims the trick here then is to find some way to abstract our infinitely fallible nature from whatever reality is out there so we can see what there is to see i can think of no way this can be done bill
alt.atheism	re what s a shit shoveler to do was re amusing atheists and robert beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com wrote precisely my position as a newbie i tried the point by point approach to debate with these types it wasted both my time and my lifespan ignoring them is not an option since they don t go away and doing so would leave one with large stretches of complete anonymity in this group bob i ve posted here long enough to see your name a few times but i can t recall any point by point approach to anything you ve contributed but i m old probably senile and i may have just forgotten if you could post an example of your invincible logic it might jog my memory bill
alt.atheism	free energy technology free energy technology by robert e mcelwaine physicist ninety to a hundred years ago everybody knew that a heavier than air machine could not possibly fly it would violate the laws of physics all of the experts and authorities said so for example simon newcomb declared in the demonstration that no possible combination of known substances known forms of machinery and known forms of force can be united in a practical machine by which man shall fly long distances through the air seems to the writer as complete as it is possible for the demonstration of any physical fact to be fortunately a few smart people such as the wright brothers did not accept such pronouncements as the final word now we take airplanes for granted except when they crash today orthodox physicists and other scientists are saying similar things against several kinds of free energy technologies using negative terms such as pseudo science and perpetual motion and citing so called laws which assert that energy cannot be created or destroyed st law of thermodynamics and there is always a decrease in useful energy nd law of thermodynamics the physicists do not know how to do certain things so they arrogantly declare that those things cannot be done such principles of impotence are common in orthodox modern science and help to cover up inconsistencies and contradictions in orthodox modern theories free energy inventions are devices which can tap a seemingly unlimited supply of energy from the universe with out burning any kind of fuel making them the perfect solution to the world wide energy crisis and its associated pollution degradation and depletion of the environment most free energy devices probably do not create energy but rather tap into existing natural energy sources by various forms of induction unlike solar or wind devices they need little or no energy storage capacity because they can tap as much energy as needed when needed solar energy has the dis advantage that the sun is often blocked by clouds trees buildings or the earth itself or is reduced by haze or smog or by thick atmosphere at low altitudes and high latitudes likewise wind speed is widely variable and often non existent neither solar nor wind power are suitable to directly power cars and airplanes properly designed free energy devices do not have such limitations for example at least three u s patents and have so far been awarded for motors that run exclusively on permanent magnets seemingly tapping into energy circulating through the earth s magnetic field the first two require a feedback network in order to be self running the third one as described in detail in science mechanics magazine spring amazing magnet powered motor by jorma hyypia pages and front cover requires critical sizes shapes orientations and spacings of magnets but no feedback such a motor could drive an electric generator or reversible heatpump in one s home year round for free complete descriptive copies of u s patents are each from the u s patent office jefferson davis hwy arlington va correct digit patent number required or try getting copies of both the article and the patents via your local public or university library s inter library loan dept a second type of free energy device such as the gray motor u s patent the tesla coil and the motor of inventor joseph newman see science pages taps electro magnetic energy by induction from earth resonance about cycles per second plus harmonics they typically have a spark gap in the circuit which serves to synchronize the energy in the coils with the energy being tapped it is important that the total inductance and capacitance of the device combine to resonate at the same frequency as earth resonance in order to maximize the power output this output can also be increased by centering the spark gap at the neutral center of a strong u shaped permanent magnet in the case of a tesla coil slipping a toroid choke coil around the secondary coil will enhance output power earth energy fuelless propulsion power systems by john bigelow health research p o box mokelumne hill ca during the s an austrian civil engineer named viktor schauberger invented and partially developed an implosion turbine german name zokwendle after analyzing erosion and lack of erosion in differently shaped waterways and developing sophisticated mathematical equations to explain it as described in the book a breakthrough to new free energy sources by dan a davidson water is pumped by an impeller pump through a logarithmic spiral shaped coil of tubing until it reaches a critical velocity the water then implodes no longer touching the inside walls of the tubing and drives the pump which then converts the pump s motor into an electric generator the device seems to be tapping energy from that of the earth s rotation via the coriolis effect like a tornado it can also neutralize gravity a fourth type of free energy device is the mcclintock air motor u s patent which is a cross between a diesel engine it has three cylinders with a compression ratio of to and a rotary engine with solar and planetary gears it burns no fuel but becomes self running by driving its own air compressor this engine also generates a lot of heat which could be used to heat buildings and its very high torque makes it ideal for large trucks preventing their slowing down when climbing hills david mcclintock is also the real original inventor of the automatic transmission differential and wheel drive crystals may someday be used to supply energy as shown in the star trek shows perhaps by inserting each one between metal capacitor plates and bombarding it with a beam of particles from a small radioactive source like that used in a common household smoke detector one other energy source should be mentioned here despite the fact that it does not fit the definition of free energy a bulgarian born american physicist named joseph maglich has invented and partially developed an atomic fusion reactor which he calls migma which uses non radioactive deuterium as a fuel available in nearly unlimited quantities from sea water does not produce radioactive waste can be converted directly into electricity with out energy wasting steam turbines and can be constructed small enough to power a house or large enough to power a city and unlike the tokamaks and laser fusion monstrosities that we read about migma works already producing at least three watts of power for every watt put in new times u s version pages and then there are the cold fusion experiments that have been in the news lately originally conducted by university of utah researchers b stanley pons and martin fleischmann some u s navy researchers at the china lake naval weapons center in california under the direction of chemist melvin miles finally took the trouble to collect the bubbles coming from such an apparatus had them analyzed with mass spectrometry techniques and found helium which proves that atomic fusion did indeed take place and enough of it to explain the excess heat generated there are good indications that the two so called laws of thermodynamics are not so absolute for example the late physicist dewey b larson developed a comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe which he calls the reciprocal system which he describes in detail in several books such as nothing but motion and the universe of motion in which the physical universe has two distinct halves the material half and an anti matter half with a continuous cycle of matter and energy passing between them with out the heat death predicted by thermodynamic laws his theory explains the universe much better than modern orthodox theories including phenomena that orthodox physicists and astronomers are still scratching their heads about and is self consistent in every way some free energy devices might be tapping into that energy flow seemingly converting low quality energy into high quality energy also certain religious organizations such as sant mat and eckankar teach their members that the physical universe is only the lowest of at least a dozen major levels of existence like parallel universes or analogous to tv channels as described in books like the path of the masters by dr julian johnson and eckankar the key to secret worlds by sri paul twitchell for example the next level up from the physical universe is commonly called the astral plane long time members of these groups have learned to soul travel into these higher worlds and report on conditions there it seems plausible that energy could flow down from these higher levels into the physical universe or be created at the boundary between them given the right configuration of matter to channel it this is supported by many successful laboratory controlled experiments in psycho kinesis throughout the world such as those described in the book psychic discoveries behind the iron curtain in terms of economics the market has failed inventors do not have enough money and other resources to fully develop and mass produce free energy equipment and the conventional energy producer have no desire to do so because of their ve ted intere t the government is needed to intervene if the government does not intervene then the total supply of energy resources from the earth will continue to decline and will soon run out prices for energy will increase and pollution and its harmful effects including the greenhouse effect acid rain smog radioactive contamination oil spills rape of the land by strip mining etc will continue to increase the government should subsidize research and development of free energy by inventors and universities subsidize private production until the producers can make it on their own and subsidize consumption by low income consumers of free energy hardware the long range effects of such government intervention would be wide spread and profound the quantity of energy demanded from conventional energy producer coal mining companie oil companie and countries electric utilitie etc would drop to near zero forcing their employees to seek work elsewhere energy resources coal uranium oil and gas would be left in the ground prices for conventional energy supplies would also drop to near zero while the price of free energy equipment would start out high but drop as supply increases as happened with vcr s personal computers etc costs of producing products that require large quantities of energy to produce would decrease along with their prices to consumers consumers would be able to realize the opportunity costs of paying electric utility bills or buying home heating fuel tourism would benefit and increase because travelers would not have to spend their money for gasoline for their cars government tax revenue from gasoline and other fuels would have to be obtained in some other way and energy could no longer be used as a motive or excuse for making war many conventional energy producer would go out of business but society as a whole and the earth s environment and ecosystems would benefit greatly it is the people that government should serve rather than the big corporation and bank for more information answers to your questions etc please consult my cited sources patents articles books un altered reproduction and dissemination of this important information is encouraged robert e mcelwaine b s physics uw ec
alt.atheism	re christian morality is dan schaertel dps nasa kodak com wrote let us go back oh say years or so whatever pretend someone says to you someday there will be men on the moon now remember you still think the world is flat this is quite an extraordinary claim i think c s lewis has argued that medieval people did not all think the world is flat however this argument goes both ways pretend someone telling plato that it is highly probable that people do not really have souls their minds and their consciousness are just something their brains make up and their brains their body is actually ahead of their mind even in voluntarly actions i don t think plato would have been happy with this and neither would paul although paul s ideas were quite different however if you would read what we discuss in this group and not just preach you would see that there currently is much evidence in favour of these statements the same applies to the theory of natural selection or other sacred cows of christianity on our origins and human nature i don t believe in spirits devils or immortal souls any more than in gods the fact is we can argue the existence of god until the end of time there really is no way to either prove or disprove it but there will be a time when we all know the truth i hope and believe i m right and i hope and pray that you find your way too ah you said it you believe what you want to this is what i had assumed all along ok maybe i shouldn t have said no way i guess i really believe there is a way but all i can do is plant seeds either they grow or they don t you might be as well planting satan s seeds ever thought of this besides you haven t yet explained why we must believe so blindly without any guiding light at all at least i haven t noticed it i don t think this is at all fair play on god s part your argument sounds like a version of pascal s wager please read the faq this fallacy is discussed there but they won t if they re not planted the holy spirit is the nurishment that helps them grow and that comes from god and i failed to get help from the hs because i had a wrong attitude sorry dan but i do not think this spirit exists people who claim to have access to it just look badly deluded not gifted petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics is the truth pihatie c finou oulu fi physics is the rule of sf oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry is the game
alt.atheism	re free moral agency bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes i see that you still can t grasp the obvious is it because your are devious by nature or can you only find fault with an argument by misrepresenting it gee since you ignored the entire substance of my substantial post you got a lot of nerve claiming that i don t understand what s being talked about respond to the previous post or shut the fuck up you re really annoying maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california kids please don t try this at home remember i post professionally
alt.atheism	re free energy technology in article apr cnsvax uwec edu mcelwre cnsvax uwec edu writes free energy inventions are devices which can tap a seemingly unlimited supply of energy from the universe with out burning any kind of fuel making them the perfect solution to the world wide energy crisis and its associated pollution degradation and depletion of the environment give me a call when you build a working model then we ll talk stock options private note to jennifer fakult this post may contain one or more of the following sarcasm cycnicism irony or humor please be aware of this possibility and do not allow yourself to be confused and or thrown for a loop if in doubt assume all of the above the owners of this account do not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability to recognize any of the above read at your own risk jennifer
alt.atheism	re the qur an and atheists was re jewish settlers demolish a mosque in gaza in article apr doug cae wisc edu kahraman hprisc cae wisc edu gokalp kahraman writes in this respect since atheists are dominantly arrogant and claim self control and self ownership they would make pharoahs look like very humble decent people in comparison if the logic is this since i own myself others who are like me should also own themselves and going further things are self existent and self standing and self living etc yes atheists tend to claim self control and self ownership are you saying that theists claim to not have self control i don t think atheists are dominantly arrogant they don t claim some god that has supremacy over all of mankind now this claim would be arrogant but atheists don t claim it most atheists do claim to own themselves i think any disagreement with this claim of self ownership would be supremely arrogant john david munch jmunch hertz elee calpoly edu the heart can change be full of hate or love if people are allowed to base their lives through their hearts anything can happen a dangerous situation in my opinion bobby mozumder describing problems with atheism
alt.atheism	re cults vs religions to the media religion and cult have about the same relative connotations as government and terrorist group c wingate the peace of god it is no peace but strife closed in the sod mangoe cs umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace of god
alt.atheism	re science and theories in article c u bq j news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes as per various threads on science and creationism i ve started dabbling into a book called christianity and the nature of science by jp moreland as i don t know this book i will use your heresay a question that i had come from one of his comments he stated that god is not necessarily a religious term but could be used as other scientific terms that give explanation for events or theories without being a proven scientific fact it depends on how he defines god the way i understand the meaning of that term preclues it being used in a useful way in science ideas drawn from an understanding that god is supernatural precludes us from forming scientific assertions that can be falsified that is where we can decide that they are true or false within the terms of we use and useful observations drawn from them some religionists have an interest in bluring the definitions within science to make them more reconcilable and especially subserviant in a basic way to religious dogma this pursuit always fails i think i got his point i can quote the section if i m being vague the examples he gave were quarks and continental plates are there explanations of science or parts of theories that are not measurable in and of themselves or can everything be quantified measured tested etc reconciliation of science with religion involves circumventing the tendancy to claim that either pursuit can gain absolute or certian knowledge or that the domain of truth in each is fundementally limited in some way it gererally confurs the element of uncertainty and limitations to human knowledge while allowing for the different concerns of these separate pursuits science and religion ask different questions which have imperfect and provisional answers at best science is distinctly limited in where it can ask meaningful questions more questions can be posed than it can answer at the basis of sacred language is the place where words fail us and mere assertions disolve in contradiction bruce salem
alt.atheism	re a little too satanic jon livesey writes so when they took the time to copy the text correctly that includes obvious corruptions well yes this is the real mystery of the matter and why i am rather dubious of a lot of the source theories there are a number of places where the masoretic text mt of the ot is obscure and presumably corrupted these are reproduced exactly from copy to copy the dss tend to reflect the same errors this would appear to tell us that at least from some point people began to copy the texts very exactingly and mechanically the problem is we don t know what they did before that but it seems as though accurate transmission begins at the point at which the texts are perceived as texts they may be added to and in some situations such as the end of mark material is lost but for the most part there are no substantial changes to the existing text you re basically trying to make a mountain out of a molehill some people like to use the game of telephone as a metaphor for the transmission of the texts this clearly wrong the texts are transmitted accurately c wingate the peace of god it is no peace but strife closed in the sod mangoe cs umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace of god
alt.atheism	albert sabin br from wpr atlanta dg com bill rawlins br newsgroups alt atheism br organization dgsid atlanta ga br since you have referred to the messiah i assume you br are referring to the new testament please detail br your complaints or e mail if you don t want to post br first century greek is well known and br well understood have you considered josephus the jewish br historian who also wrote of jesus in addition br the four gospel accounts are very much in harmony it is also well known that the comments in josephus relating to jesus were inserted badly by later editors as for the four gospels being in harmony on the issue of jesus you know not of what you speak here are a few contradictions starting with the trial and continuing through the assension the death of judas after the betrayal of jesus acts now this man judas purchased a field with the reward of iniquity and falling headlong he burst asunder in the midst and all his bowels gushed out matt and he judas cast down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed and went and hanged himself and the chief priests bought with them the potter s field what was jesus prediction regarding peter s denial before the cock crow matthew before the cock crow twice mark how many times did the cock crow mar and the second time the cock crew and peter called to mind the word that jesus said unto him before the cock crow twice thou shalt deny me thrice and when he thought thereon he wept mat then began he to curse and to swear saying i know not the man and immediately the cock crew mat and peter remembered the word of jesus which said unto him before the cock crow thou shalt deny me thrice and he went out and wept bitterly luk and peter said man i know not what thou sayest and immediately while he yet spake the cock crew luk and the lord turned and looked upon peter and peter remembered the word of the lord how he had said unto him before the cock crow thou shalt deny me thrice joh jesus answered him wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake verily verily i say unto thee the cock shall not crow still thou hast denied me thrice joh peter then denied again and immediately the cock crew destruction of cities what said was jeremiah was zechariah this is interesting because matthew quotes a prophesy that was never made not the only time he does this either mat then was fulfilled that which was spoken by jeremy the prophet saying and they took the thirty pieces of silver the price of him that was valued whom they of the children of israel did value zechariah nothing in jeremiah remotely like what was the color of the robe placed on jesus during his trial scarlet matthew purple john the time of the crucifiction mark says the third hour or a m but john says the sixth hour noon was when the sentence was passed inscription on the cross matthew this is jesus the king of the jews mark the king of the jews luke this is the king of the jews john jesus of nazareth the king of the jews what did they give him to drink vinegar matthew wine with myrrh mark women at the cross matthew said many stood far off including mary magdaline mary the mother of james and the mother of zebedee s children mark and luke speak of many far off and mark includes mary magdeline and mary the mother of james the less john says that jesus s mother stood at the cross along with her sister and mary magdalene jesus last words matt and about the ninth hour jesus cried with a loud voice saying eli eli lama sabachthani that is to say my god my god why hast thou forsaken me jesus when he cried again with a loud voice yielded u the ghost luke and when jesus had cried with a loud voice he said father unto thy hands i commend my spirit and having said thus he gave up the ghost john when jesus therefore had received the vinegar he said it is finished and he bowed his head and gave up the ghost events of the crucifiction matthew says that the veil of the temple was rent that there was an earthquake and that it was dark from the sixth to the ninth hour that graves opened and bodies of the saints arose and went into jeruselem appearing to many beating jesus to the resurection mark and luke speak of darkness and the veil of the temple being rent but mention no earthquake or risen saints john is the only one who mentions jesus s side being peirced burial of jesus matthew says the jews asked pilate for a guard to prevent the body from being stolen by the disciples and for the tomb to be sealed all of this was supposedly done but the other gospels do not mention these precautions how long was jesus in the tomb depends where you look matthew gives jesus prophesying that he will spend three days and three nights in the heart of the earth and mark has after three days meta treis emeras he will rise again as far as i can see from a quick look the prophecies have after three days but the post resurrection narratives have on the third day time of the resurection matthew says sunday at dawn mark says the sun was rising and john says it was dark who was at the empty tomb is it mat in the end of the sabbath as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week came mary magdalene and the other mary to see the sepulchre mar and when the sabbath was past mary magdalene and mary the mother of james and salome had bought sweet spices that they might come and anoint him joh the first day of the week cometh mary magdalene early when it was yet dark unto the sepulchre and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre whom did they see at the tomb mat and behold there was a great earthquake for the angel of the lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone from the door and sat upon it mat his countenance was like lightning and his raiment white as snow mat and for fear of him the keepers did shake and became as dead men mat and the angel answered and said unto the women fear not ye for i know that ye seek jesus which was crucified mar and entering into the sepulchre they saw a young man sitting on the right side clothed in a long white garment and they were affrighted luk and it came to pass as they were much perplexed thereabout behold two men stood by them in shining garments joh and seeth two angels in white sitting the one at the head and the other at the feet where the body of jesus had lain belief that the disciples stole jesus s body matthew says the guard was paid to tell this story but no other gospel makes this claim appearences of the risen jesus matthew says an angel at the tomb told the two marys and that jesus also told them to tell the disciples to meet him in galilee the disciples then went to a mountain previously agreed opon and met jesus there this was his only appearance except to the women at the tomb matthew only devotes five verses to the visit with the disciples mark says that jesus walked with two of the disciples in the country and that they told the rest of the disciples who refused to believe later he appeared to the disciples at mealtime luke says two followers went the same day that jesus rose from the dead to emmaus a village eight miles from jeruselem and there jesus jioned them but was unrecognised while they ate a meal together that evening they finally recognised jesus whereopon he dissapeared returning at once to jeruselem they told the disciples of their experience and suddenly jesus appeared among them frightening them as they thought he was a spirit jesus then ate some fish and honey and then preached to them john says jesus appeared to the disciples the evening of the day he arrose in jeruselem where they were hiding he breathed the holy ghost opon them but thomas was not present and refused to believe eight days later jesus joined the disciples again at the same place and this time he convinced thomas once more jesus made an appearance to the disciples at the sea of tiberias but again was not recognised after telling them to cast their netson the other side of the boat jesus becomes known to them and prepares bread and fish for them they all eat together and converse the book of acts further adds to the confusion it says that jesus showed himself to the apostles for a period of days after his resurection thus contradicting matthew mark luke and john and spoke to them of things pertaining to the kingdom of god and when he had spoken these things while they beheld he was taken up and a cloud recieved him out of their sight and while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up two men stood by them in white apparel which also said ye men of galilee why stand ye gazing into heaven this same jesus which is taken from you into heaven shall so comein like manneras ye have seen him go into heaven acts paul outdoes every other authority by saying that jesus was seen by persons between the time of the resurection and the assension although he does not say where he also claims that he himself as one born out of due time also saw jesus cor the ascension matthew says nothing about it mark casually says that jesus was recieved into heaven after he was finished talking with the disciples in jeruselem luke says jesus led the desciples to bethany and that while he blessed them he was parted from them and carried up into heaven john says nothing about it acts contradicts all of the above see previous section when second coming mat verily i say unto you this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled mar verily i say unto you that this generation shall not pass till all these things be done luk verily i say unto you this generation shall not pass away till all be fulfilled thessalonians how many apostles were in office between the resurection and ascention corinthians matthew minus one from acts mathias not elected until after resurrection mat then the eleven disciples went away into galilee into a mountain where jesus had appointed them ascend to heaven and elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven kings no man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven the son of man john as you can see there are a number of contradictions in the account of the trial crucifiction and resurection of jesus if these are good witnesses you would think that they could get some of these important details right in fact i cannot find very many points on where they agree you would think that they could at least agree on some of the points they were supposedly observing because of the fact that there is so much contradiction and error the story of the resurection as presented cannot be taken as literal truth due to the nature of the story i doubt if it should be taken as any sort of truth alan
alt.atheism	albert sabin br from wpr atlanta dg com bill rawlins br newsgroups alt atheism br organization dgsid atlanta ga br the problem is that most scientists exclude the br possibility of the supernatural in the question of br origins is this is a fair premise i utterly br reject the hypothesis that science is the highest form of br truth it is better than the crap that the creationists put out so far all they have been able to manage is distortions and half truths when they are not taking quotes out of context br some of these so called human like creatures were br apes some were humans some were fancifully br reconstructed from fragments the genetic code has shown more about how man is realted to primates that the fossil record a little detail the creationists try and ignore br good deeds do not justify a person in god s br sight an atonement jesus is needed to atone br for sin who says your bible tm i would be surprised if any christian followed all of the rules in the bible most of them just pick and choose according to the local biases br my point god is the creator look s like we agree where is your proof how do you know it was your god br i ll send you some info via e mail br regards bill why not post them i would be interested in seeing them myself alan
alt.atheism	after years can we say that christian morality is mc theory of creationism my theistic view of the theory of mc creationism there are many others is stated in genesis mc in the beginning god created the heavens and the earth and which order of creation do you accept the story of creation is one of the many places in the bible where the story contradicts itself the following is an example gen and god made the beast of the earth after his kind and cattle after their kind and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind and god saw that it was good gen and god said let us make man in our image after our likeness and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the air and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth gen and the lord god said it is not good that the man should be alone i will make him an help meet for him gen and out of the ground the lord god formed every beast of the field and every fowl of the air and brought them unto adam to see what he would call them and whatsoever adam called every living creature that was the name thereof even your bible cannot agree on how things were created why should we believe in it alan
alt.atheism	some thoughts rh from house helios usq edu au ron house rh newsgroups alt atheism rh organization university of southern queensland rh bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first i want to start right out and say that i m a christian it rh i know i shouldn t get involved but rh bit deleted the book says that jesus was either a liar or he was crazy a modern day koresh or he was actually who he said he was rest of rant deleted this is a standard argument for fundies can you spot the falicy the statement is arguing from the assumption that jesus actually existed so far they have not been able to offer real proof of that existance most of them try it using the very flawed writings of josh mcdowell and others to prove it but those writers use very flawed sources if they are real sources at all some are not when will they ever learn to do real research instead of believing the drivel sold in the christian bookstores rh righto dan try this one with your cornflakes rh the book says that muhammad was either a liar or he was rh crazy a modern day mad mahdi or he was actually who he rh said he was some reasons why he wouldn t be a liar are as rh follows who would die for a lie wouldn t people be able rh to tell if he was a liar people gathered around him and rh kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing how his rh son in law made the sun stand still call me a fool but i rh believe he did make the sun stand still rh niether was he a lunatic would more than an entire nation rh be drawn to someone who was crazy very doubtful in fact rh rediculous for example anyone who is drawn to the mad rh mahdi is obviously a fool logical people see this right rh away rh therefore since he wasn t a liar or a lunatic he must have rh been the real thing nice rebutal alan
alt.atheism	re so help you god in court bobbe vice robert beauchaine lp a yayg pontificated i guess i don t understand the problem i ve never had any problem swearing and using the name of god in the same sentence comes quite naturally as a matter of facxt i would guess that you either mean that you don t have a problem swearing aligance to a non existant being or that you are being deliberatily dense considering what group this is it doesn t come quite naturally to nonbelievers such as myself or even to followers of other religions would you say it would be quite natural if you were forced to swear by allah or budda james t green jgreen oboe calpoly edu at all times and in all nations the priest has been hostile to liberty thomas jefferson
alt.atheism	re alleged deathbed conversions was asimov stamp in article sheafferc zt brs netcom com sheaffer netcom com robert sheaffer writes it had to happen the old allegation of the deathbed conversion of the noted unbeliever other examples what all of these deathbed conversion claims have in common is that they are utterly unsubstantiated and almost certainly untrue i would not be too quick to say that they are almost certainly untrue even strong minded people may fall back on childhood indoctrination grasp at straws or do other strange things when faced with extreme suffering not to mention physiological problems which may lead to diminished mental capacity at the risk of restarting an old argument and accusations of appeal to authority i remind readers of what i posted a while back as a kind of obituary for the late atheist dr albert sabin in an old interview rebroadcast on public radio just after his death he told about a time a few years before when he was stricken with a very serious illness he admitted to having cried out to god while critically ill and on a respirator as it turned out he recovered and lived several more years after his recovery he attributed this to early indoctrination don t say it couldn t happen to you or that it hasn t happened to others even if you are one of the few people who have experienced things like this people are different i admire dr sabin for admitting his human weakness in that instance i would not think less of asimov for similar weakness nevertheless i agree that these reports are unsubstantiated and may well be untrue in any case they are not evidence for anything besides the power of early indoctrination and human frailty bill mayne
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes deletion that s was the original answer while it does not say that he has the head necessarily up its ass it would be meaningless and pointless if it was not insinuated i don t see a header referring to bob as the poster to whom i was responding i distinctly remember thinking i was responding to you when i wrote this in which case i would make no apologies but in the event that i was in fact responding to bob i hereby apologize to bob for insinuating such a thing sorry bob on the other hand it could be that ben has his head so far up his ass that he can t tell himself from bob sorry gregg it was no answer to a post of mine and you are quite fond of using abusing language whenever you think your religion is misrepresented by the way i have no trouble telling me apart from bob beauchaine i still wait for your answer to that the quran allows you to beat your wife into submission you were quite upset about the claim that it was in it to be more correct you said it wasn t i asked you about what your consequences were in case it would be in the quran but you have simply ceased to respond on that thread can it be that you have found out in the meantime that it is the holy book what are your consequences now was your being upset just a show do you simple inherit your morals from a book ie is it suddenly ok now is it correct to say that the words of muhammad reflect the primitive machism of his society or have you spent your time with your new gained freedom benedikt
alt.atheism	re alleged deathbed conversions was asimov stamp in article c n o panix com carlf panix com carl fink writes in sheafferc zt brs netcom com sheaffer netcom com robert sheaffer writes deletion it had to happen the old allegation of the deathbed conversion of the noted unbeliever i seem to recall similar claims being made about voltaire mencken darwin ingersoll etc indeed the literary hoax attributed to nietzsche my sister and i portrays him as trembling in fear before divine judgment and it was recently re issued by amok books with an introduction by a lutheran professor telling us why we should take it seriously what all of these deathbed conversion claims have in common is that they are utterly unsubstantiated and almost certainly untrue perhaps the least believable and most infurating alleged conversion was that of tom paine reported like most only by his devout relatives asimov was very unlikely to convert to christianity on his deathbed return to judaism perhaps if he did revert to childhood training but christianity the good doctor would more likely have converted to hinduism isaac asimov read creationist books he read the bible he had ample opportunity to kneel before his creator and savior he refused in fact he sent out a strong promotional letter urging support of the american humanist association shortly before he died excerpt from ken ham asimov meets his creator back to genesis no june p c included in acts facts vol no june from the institute for creation research this is one of the most offensive articles they ve ever published but at least it argues against a deathbed conversion there s a part of the article even worse than what i ve just quoted in which an excerpt from a reader s letter says that if asimov is burning in hell now then he certainly has had a degree change in his former beliefs about creation and the creator a post deathbed conversion jim lippard lippard ccit arizona edu dept of philosophy lippard arizvms bitnet university of arizona tucson az
comp.graphics	quicktime performance was re rumours about do ok with all the discussion about observed playback speeds with quicktime the effects of scaling and so on i thought i d do some more tests first of all i felt that my original speed test was perhaps less than realistic the movie i had been using only had frames in it it was a version of the very first movie i created with the compact video compressor i decided something a little longer would give closer to real world results for better or for worse i pulled out a copy of a space odyssey that i had recorded off tv a while back about fifteen minutes into the movie there s a sequence where the earth shuttle is approaching the space station specifically i digitized a portion of about seconds duration zooming in on the rotating space station i figured this would give a reasonable amount of movement between frames to increase the differences between frames i digitized it at only frames per second to give a total of frames i captured the raw footage at a resolution of pixels with the spigot card in my centris quarter size resolution from a pal source i then imported it into premiere and put it through the compact video compressor keeping the fps frame rate i created two versions of the movie one scaled to resolution the other at resolution i used the default quality setting in premiere and specified a key frame every ten frames i then ran the movie through the same raw speed test program i used for the results i d been reporting earlier result a playback rate of over frames per second that s right i was getting a much higher result than with that first short test movie just for fun i copied the movie to my external hard disk a quantum lp s and ran it from there this time the playback rate was only about frames per second obviously the mb internal hard disk also a quantum is a significant contributor to the speed of playback i modified my speed test program to allow the specification of optional scaling factors and tried playing back the movie scaled to size this time the playback speed was over fps clearly the poster who observed poor performance on scaled playback was seeing quicktime in action not i d try my tests with quicktime but i don t think it s entirely compatible with my centris and system unscaled the playback rate for the movie was over fps the other thing i tried was saving versions of the movie with preferred playback rates greater than and seeing how well they played from within movieplayer ie with quicktime s normal synchronized playback a preferred rate of fps didn t work too well the playback was very jerky compare this with the raw speed test which achieved fps with ease i can t believe that quicktime s synchronization code would add this much overhead i think the slowdown was coming from the mac system s task switching a preferred rate of fps seemed to work fine i couldn t see any evidence of stutter at fps i think i could see slight stutter but with four key frames every second it was hard to tell i guess i could try recreating the movies with a longer interval between the key frames to make the stutter more noticeable of course this will also improve the compression slightly which should speed up the playback performance even more lawrence d oliveiro fone computer services dept fax university of waikato electric mail ldo waikato ac nz hamilton new zealand s e gmt
comp.graphics	icn msdos pbm pgm ppm format i have many icons in iconedit and pbicon format and i would like to convert them to pbm pgm or ppm format do you know the formats of iconedit or pbicon thank s for your help rene kiwi iis ethz ch
comp.graphics	re bit graphics howdy all oehler yar cs wisc edu wonko the sane writes i was recently talking to a possible employer mine and he made a reference to a bit graphics computer image processing system i seem to remember it being called image or something akin to that anyway he claimed it had bit color a bit alpha channel that s bits of info what could that possibly be for specifically the bit color that s trillion colors many more than the human eye can resolve is this an anti aliasing thing or is this just some magic number to make it work better with a certain processor hmm bit aye well it beats a bit design for thee sake of ellegance bit means bits per primary colour the nr of colours is a bit misleading it makes more sense to see it as possible shades of pure red this might actually make some sense since shades of red bit colours may produce visible jumps in intensity then again a byte per primary colour for each pixel is the most elegant way of doing colour graphics because it leaves ya such a tidy and fast program code take care bram flying is a nack the trick is bram stolk stolk fwi uva nl to throw yourself at the ground dept of maths computer science and miss douglas adams university of amsterdam no i dont use ms windoze i prefer linux
comp.graphics	help need bits viewer hi i m looking for a program which is able to display bits images we are using a sun sparc equipped with parallax graphics board running x thanks in advance
comp.graphics	human body data sets needed urgently hi all i m looking for datasets of a human body or head in any of the popular formats i m doing a presentation tomorrow which could be greatly enhanced by bringing in this human factor i ve looked around the net with no sucess so far anyone got any ideas i d also appreciate info on the location of datasets for the uss enterprise any model thanks in advance ronan
comp.graphics	re why does illustrator autotrace so poorly mac utkvx bitnet richard j mcdougald writes in article b vmcbrt diablo uucp diablo uucp cboesel charles boesel writes of these application softwares we re using but even so how come one hasn t been written to my knowledge i mean even hijaak one of the commercial industry standards of file conversion hasn t attempted it yet adobe streamline has been out four a couple of years it does a much better job than the autotracing functions which are built into illustration programs of course a higher resolution bitmap will produce a more accurate trace the problem that i ve run into though is that when it creates a detailed trace it produces way more points than are necessary if i trace something manually i use many less es points the problem with this is it produces big files which slow everything down especially printing chuck y
comp.graphics	wanted scott leatham microsoft hello there a few days ago i got a mail concerning bitmap stretching from scott leatham microsoft redmond wa usa i really would like to answer back to him but i have lost his email address so if scott or anybody that knows his email address reads this please mail me his address so i can answer his mail please mail to d tm efd lth se thanks tomas
comp.graphics	re pov problems with tga outputs remember that the unix versions of pov don t create tga but qrt file format output by default ft is needed to make tga o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.graphics	re pov ray problem please help what about qrttoppm file dis ppmtotga file tga o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.graphics	re why does illustrator autotrace so poorly mac utkvx bitnet richard j mcdougald writes since there s no not really such thing as a decent raster to vector conversion program this tracing technique is about it simple stuff like b w logos etc do pretty well while more complicated stuff goes haywire the first and only thing i ve ever tried to auto trace was a piece of a uscg nautical chart using adobe illustrator i wanted to get the outline of the coast for western long island sound i was simultaneously suprised at how good a job it did and disappointed at how poorly it did i suspect what i gave it was a very difficult thing not only is the coastline very irregular but overlaid on the chart are numerous sets of gridlines not only lattitude and longitude but loran grids as well the most common mistake it make was whenever the coastline was roughly parallel and tangent to a grid line it would take off following the gridline instead of the coast i think the best improvement would be some sort of interactive algorithm that would let you step in and say no dummy you re going the wrong way steve reisberg a friend of mine a few years back did his doctoral work analysing electron micrographs of filimentous phage virii a good chunk of the work was writing a program to take a digitized micrograph and automatically trace the centerline of the virus particles this is essentially the same problem that illustrator tries to solve with its auto trace tool in some respects the problem steve worked on was harder since he was trying to do quantitative analysis of the virus structure and finding a good centerline was only the first step but a step on which all future analysis depended however in other respects it was an easier problem since the program could be written with a lot of knowledge about what the virus particles were supposed to look like and the analysis could be restricted to those particles which happend to be relatively straight clean and well imaged you don t always have that freedom auto tracing real life images in any case it gave me some insight into just how difficult this problem is to solve in the general case steve is no longer with us he and his wife disappeared while on vacation in hawaii a couple of years after they graduated their last known location was hiking in a densely wooded in a mountainous area while no bodies were ever found they are presumed to have been the victim of some sort of fall or accident in the woods roy smith roy nyu edu hippocrates project department of microbiology coles nyu school of medicine first avenue new york ny this never happened to bart simpson
comp.graphics	re rumours about do johnm spudge lonestar org john munsch writes in article lot rapnbh h viamar uucp rutgers viamar kmembry writes read issue of wired magazine it has a long article on the hype of do i ve noticed that every article talks with the designers and how great it is but never show any pictures of the output or at least pictures that one can understand gamepro magazine published pictures a few months ago and computer chronicles a program that is syndicated to public tv stations around the nation spent several minutes on it when it was shown at ces it was very impressive what it can do in real time john munsch the april edition of mix magazine carries a story on do which includes pictures of the unit a schematic of what s inside and some indication from the people at do as to where they intend to go and in what stages mix is a trade rag aimed at the professional sound engineering community the schematic shows a central dma engine connecting and mediating between two graphics animation processors bit bus a bit risc processor with math co processor video decomp module a control port an expansion port where do hangs its double fast cd player mb dram an optional video port for editing video and on the outbound side mb vram to video processor to tv chain parallel with a dsp to sound chain they promise red book cd quality audio full fps video and a future connection path to your pc via a pc expansion card i am not informed enough to have an opinion about the various means and methods discussed here the article written by philip de lancie does cover the other machines mentioned in this thread i come from the pc tcp ip world and see a tremendous potential for bringing connectedness to the educated consumer do seems to have the right business partners to make this happen hope this helps david shute email dks world std com
comp.graphics	real d earlier today i read an ad for real d animation ray tracing software and it looked very convincing to me however i don t own an amiga and so i began to wonder if there s a pc version of it so has anyone seen used real d for dos rauno rene haapaniemi i every word of it are true haapanatie d i except for those that are lies oulu i reneh otol fi i douglas adams
comp.graphics	hallusion info has anyone seen hallusions you can buy a poster of them and it looks like a simple dot pattern when you first look at it but if you focus behind it you see a d picture i m looking for a program that generates these pictures there s a company in texas that makes them but i doubt if they re giving the program away any help would be appreciated
comp.graphics	cgm something preferably pcx does anybody know about a converter from cgm to pcx or anything else more common i ve spent some time searching the archives with no luck could you email me your responses thx in advance mike g d np jupiter sun csd unb ca
comp.graphics	kubota kenai denali does anyone have any real experience with the kubota kenai denali series of graphics workstations they pretty much blow the pants off sgi machines and sun machines in the same price point which is about bucks real nice stuff but i ve only seen the stuff on paper i m wondering is there anything not to like the specs are too massive to get into here but if a summary is desired i could be coaxed into uploading the spec sheet brian
comp.graphics	re is there an ftp achive for usgs terrain dat try spectrum xerox com in pub map dem
comp.graphics	re real d rauno haapaniemi raunoh otol fi wrote earlier today i read an ad for real d animation ray tracing software and it looked very convincing to me yes it looks like very good indeed however i don t own an amiga and so i began to wonder if there s a pc version of it nope regards email x x mattias matt dah dsv su se i love it
comp.graphics	re fast polygon routine needed osprey ux cso uiuc edu lucas adamski writes in article pdxgate uucp idr rigel cs pdx edu ian d romanick writes what kind of polygons shaded texturemapped hm more comes into play with fast routines than just polygons it would be nice to know exaclty what system vga is a start but what processor and a few of the specifics of the implementation you need to give more info if you want to get any answers p i don t want texture mapped cause if i did i d asked for them just a simple and fast routine to do filled polygons as for the processor it d be for a minimum of a maybe if i can t find a good one for s ideally i want a polyn function that can clip to a user defined viewport and write to an arbitrary location in memory of course the chances of ok it is for a game that is d and you have listed the characteristics that you are looking for i think you may have left out a few important parameters the polygons are all convex they have less than n sides you are drawing meshes walls doors etc i believe that the algorithms you can get that will only draw convex polygons can be much more efficient than those that can draw concave self intersecting polygons this efficiency can largely be attributed to the fact that simple convex polygons only have a left and a right edge on each scan line complex figure type polygons can be a bit trickier the less than n sides specification especially if it is a very small number like or allow othe optimisations to be made thus for a high speed game application i think you are looking for code that exploits and is hence limited to drawing simple convex polygons finding something like that are pretty remote so i guess i d need the source with it oh and i guess it would need to be in asm otherwise it d be too slow i ve seen some polygon routines in c and they ve all been waaay too slow its for a d vector graphics program i ve been hunting high and low it may have been that they were very general purpose algorithms if you limit yourself to or four sided simple convex polygons i think you might be suprised how fast a c algorithm with a asm block move to fill each scan line might actually be for a polyn function in asm and i can t find one anywhere that i can use i ve found one or two polyn functions but my asm is pretty bad so i won t even try to rewrite them lucas
comp.graphics	apr comp graphics frequently asked questions faq archive name graphics faq this message is automatically posted once a week or so in an effort to cut down on the repetitive junk in comp graphics it was last changed on apr if you have answers to other frequently asked questions that you would like included in this posting please send me mail if you don t want to see this posting every week please add the subject line to your kill file thank you if your copy of the faq is more than a couple of weeks old you may want to seek out the most recent version the latest version of this faq is always available on the archive site pit manager mit edu alias rtfm mit edu as pub usenet news answers graphics faq john john grieggs grieggs jpl devvax jpl nasa gov johng portal com last update apr sorry i haven t posted this for a couple of weeks but i was called out of town due to a death in the family this is reality folks what s new siggraph online bibliography project spencer cgrg ohio state edu grieggs jpl devvax jpl nasa gov contents general references for graphics questions drawing three dimensional objects on a two dimensional screen quantizing bit images down to bits converting color into grayscale quantizing grayscale to black white rotating a raster image by an arbitrary angle free image manipulation software format documents for tiff iff biff nff off fits etc converting between vector formats how to get pixar films how do i draw a circle as a bezier or b spline curve how to order standards documents how to ftp by email how to tell whether a point is within a planar polygon how to tessellate a sphere specific references on ray tracing and global illumination siggraph information online siggraph panels proceedings available graphics mailing lists specific references on file formats what about gif what is morphing how to ray trace height fields how to find the area of a d polygon how to join acm siggraph where can i find mri and ct scan volume data specific references on spatial data structures including quadtrees and octrees where can i get a program to plot xy z data or f x data specific references on pex and phigs siggraph online bibliography project general references for graphics questions computer graphics principles and practice nd ed j d foley a van dam s k feiner j f hughes addison wesley isbn procedural elements for computer graphics david f rogers mcgraw hill isbn mathematical elements for computer graphics nd ed david f rogers and j alan adams mcgraw hill isbn three dimensional computer graphics alan watt addison wesley isbn an introduction to ray tracing andrew glassner ed academic press isbn graphics gems andrew glassner ed academic press isbn graphics gems ii james arvo ed academic press isbn graphics gems iii david kirk ed academic press isbn with ibm disk or with mac disk digital image warping george wolberg ieee computer society press monograph isbn digital image processing nd ed rafael c gonzalez paul wintz addison wesley isbn a programmer s geometry adrian bowyer john woodwark butterworths isbn pbk an automatic mail handler at brown university allows users of computer graphics principles and practice by foley van dam feiner and hughes to obtain text errata and information on distribution of the software packages described in the book also users can send the authors feedback to report text errors and software bugs make suggestions and submit exercises to receive information describing how you can use the mail handler simply mail graphtext cs brown edu and put the word help in the subject line use the subject line software distribution to receive information specifically concerning the software packages srgp and sphigs errata for an introduction to ray tracing is available on wuarchive wustl edu in graphics graphics books introtort errata errata for digital image warping is in the same directory as digital image warping errata all c code from the graphics gems series is available via anonymous ftp from princeton edu look in the directory pub graphics graphicsgems for the various volumes gems gemsii gemsiii and get the readme file first errata to graphics gems and graphics gems ii is available on wuarchive wustl edu in graphics graphics books a list of computer graphics computational geometry and image processing journals is available from juhana kouhia jk cs tut fi drawing three dimensional objects on a two dimensional screen the simple answer is you divide by the depth for a more verbose explanation see any of the above references starting with the foley van dam feiner hughes computer graphics book is certainly a good start chapter is viewing in d then read chapter visible surface determination for more information go to chapter for shading chapter for clipping and branch out from there quantizing bit images down to bits find a copy of color image quantization for frame buffer display by paul heckbert siggraph proceedings page there are other algorithms but this one works well and is fairly simple implementations are included in most raster toolkits see item below a variant method is described in graphics gems p note that the code from the graphics gems series is all available from an ftp site as described above check out john bradley s diversity algorithm which is incorporated into the xv package and described in the back of the manual the imagemagick package see section for where it is contains another quantizing algorithm which is presented as doing a better job than the other algorithms but slower there s also an implementation of wan wong and prusinkiewicz an algorithm for multidimensional data clustering transactions on mathematical software vol june pp avialable as princeton edu pub graphics colorquant shar this code in modified form appears in the utah raster toolkit as well converting color into grayscale the ntsc formula is luminosity red green blue quantizing grayscale to black white the only reference you need for this stuff is digital halftoning robert ulichney mit press isbn but before you go off and start coding check out the image manipulation software mentioned in item below all of the packages mentioned can do some form of gray to b w conversion rotating a raster image by an arbitrary angle the obvious but wrong method is to loop over the pixels in the source image transform each coordinate and copy the pixel to the destination this is wrong because it leaves holes in the destination instead loop over the pixels in the destination image apply the reverse transformation to the coordinates and copy that pixel from the source this method is quite general and can be used for any one to one d mapping not just rotation you can add anti aliasing by doing sub pixel sampling however there is a much faster method with antialising included which involves doing three shear operations the method was originally created for the im raster toolkit see below an implementation is also present in pbmplus reference a fast algorithm for raster rotation by alan paeth awpaeth watcgl waterloo edu graphics interface vancouver an article on the im toolkit appears in the same journal an updated version of the rotation paper appears in graphics gems see section under the original title free image manipulation software there are a number of toolkits for converting from one image format to another doing simple image manipulations such as size scaling plus the above mentioned color gray gray b w conversions here are pointers to some of them xv by john bradley x based image display manipulation and format conversion package xv displays many image formats and permits editing of gif files among others the program was updated see the file contrib xv tar z on export lcs mit edu pbmplus by jef poskanzer comprehensive format conversion and image manipulation package the latest version is always available via anonymous ftp as ftp ee lbl gov pbmplus tar z wuarchive wustl edu graphics graphics packages pbmplus pbmplus tar z and export lcs mit edu contrib pbmplus tar z im raster toolkit by alan paeth awpaeth watcgl uwaterloo ca provides a portable and efficient format and related toolkit the format is versatile in supporting pixels of arbitrary channels components and bit precisions while allowing compression and machine byte order independence the kit contains more than tools with extensive support of image manipulation digital halftoning and format conversion previously distributed on tape c o the university of waterloo an ftp version will appear someday utah rle toolkit conversion and manipulation package similar to pbmplus available via ftp as cs utah edu pub urt princeton edu pub graphics urt and freebie engin umich edu pub urt fuzzy pixmap manipulation by michael mauldin mlm nl cs cmu edu conversion and manipulation package similar to pbmplus version available via ftp as nl cs cmu edu usr mlm ftp fbm tar z ftp uu net pub fbm tar z and ucsd edu graphics fbm tar z img software set by paul raveling raveling venera isi edu reads and writes its own image format displays on an x screen and does some image manipulations version is available via ftp as export lcs mit edu contrib img tar z and venera isi edu pub img tar z along with a large collection of color images xim x image manipulator by philip r thompson it does essential interactive image manipulations and uses x r and the osf motif toolkit for the interface it supports images in and bit formats reads writes and converts to from gif xwd xbm tiff rle xim and other formats writes level postscript other utilities and image application library are included not a paint package available via ftp from gis mit edu xloadimage by jim frost madd std com reads in images in various formats and displays them on an x screen available via ftp as export lcs mit edu contrib xloadimage and in your nearest comp sources x archive xli by grame gill is an updated xloadimage with numerous improvements in both speed and in the number of formats supported available in the same places as xloadimage contrib tape comp sources x archives tiff software by sam leffler sam okeeffe berkeley edu nice portable library for reading and writing tiff files plus a few tools for manipulating them and reading other formats available via ftp as ucbvax berkeley edu pub tiff tar z or ftp uu net graphics tiff tar z xtiff an x tool for viewing a tiff file it was written to handle as many different kinds of tiff files as possible while remaining simple portable and efficient xtiff illustrates some common problems with building pixmaps and using different visual classes it is distributed as part of sam leffler s libtiff package and it is also available on export lcs mit edu ftp uu net and comp sources x xtiff was announced in it includes xlib and xt versions alv a sun specific image toolkit version posted to comp sources sun on dec also available via email to alv users request cs bris ac uk popi an image manipulation language version posted to comp sources misc on dec imagemagick an x package for display and interactive manipulation of images includes tools for image conversion annotation compositing animation and creating montages imagemagick can read and write many of the more popular image formats available via ftp as export lcs mit edu contrib imagemagick tar z khoros a huge meg graphical development environment based on x r khoros components include a visual programming language code generators for extending the visual language and adding new application packages to the system an interactive user interface editor an interactive image display package an extensive library of image and signal processing routines and d d plotting packages available via ftp as pprg eece unm edu pub khoros laboimage a sunview based image processing and analysis package it includes more than image manipulation processing and measurement routines on line help plus tools such as an image editor a color table editor and several biomedical utilities available via anonymous ftp as ads com pub vision list archive shareware laboimage tar z the san diego supercomputer center image tools software tools for reading writing and manipulating raster images binaries for some machines available via anonymous ftp in sdsc edu sdscpub the independent jpeg group has written a package for reading and writing jpeg files ftp to ftp uu net graphics jpeg jpegsrc v tar z don t forget to set binary mode when you ftp tar files for you milnet folks who still don t have name servers the ip addresses are ads com cs utah edu coral cs jcu edu au export lcs mit edu freebie engin umich edu ftp ee lbl gov ftp uu net or gis mit edu gondwana ecr mu oz au karazm math uh edu marsh cs curtin edu au nic funet fir ftp ncsa uiuc edu nl cs cmu edu pit manager mit edu pprg eece unm edu princeton edu sdsc edu ucbvax berkeley edu venera isi edu weedeater math yale edu wuarchive wustl edu zamenhof cs rice edu please do not post or mail messages saying i can t ftp could someone mail this to me there are a number of automated mail servers that will send you things like this in response to a message see item below for details on some also the newsgroup alt graphics pixutils is specifically for discussion of software like this you may find useful information there format documents for tiff iff biff nff off fits etc you almost certainly don t need these read the above item on free image manipulation software get one or more of these packages and look through them chances are excellent that the image converter you were going to write is already there but if you still want one of the format documents many such files are available by anonymous ftp from zamenhof cs rice edu in directory pub graphics formats these files were collected off the net and are believed to be correct this archive includes pixel formats and two and three dimensional object formats the future of this archive is uncertain at the moment as mark hall foo cs rice edu will apparently no longer be maintaining it a second graphics file format archive is now being actively maintained by quincey koziol koziol ncsa uiuc edu the latest version exists at ftp ncsa uiuc edu in misc file formats graphics formats apparently neither of these is complete you might want to check both fits stands for flexible image transport system it s a file format most often used in astronomy despite the name it can contain not only images but other things as well there is a regular monthly fits basics and information posting on sci astro fits read it if you want to know more converting between vector formats a lot of people ask about converting from hpgl to postscript or macdraw to cgm or whatever it is important to understand that this is a very different problem from the image format conversions in item converting one image format to another is a fairly easy problem since once you get past all the file header junk a pixel is a pixel the basic objects are the same for all image formats this is not so for vector formats the basic objects circles ellipses drop shadowed pattern filled round cornered rectangles etc vary from one format to another except in extremely restricted cases it is simply not possible to do a one to one conversion between vector formats there is software for converting to and from cgm files on ftp psc edu the contributor states that it runs on unix ms windows and possibly the mac a better more specific blurb would be most welcome on the other hand it is quite possible to do a close approximation rendering an image from one format using the primitives from another as far as i know no one has put together a general toolkit of such converters but two different hpgl to postscript converters have been posted to comp sources misc check the index on your nearest archive site a related frequent question is how to convert from some vector format to a bitmapped image from postscript to sun raster format or hpgl to x bitmap for example some of the commercial postscript clones for pc s allow you to render to a disk file as well as a printer also the postscript interpreters in the next box and in sun s x news can be used to render to a file if you re clever but in general the answer is no however if someone were to put together a vector to vector conversion toolkit adding a vector to raster converter would be trivial gnu ghostscript from the fsf current version includes drivers for both ppm and gif format files thus it can be used as a postscript to ppm or a postscript to gif filter it implements essentially all of postscript level and alot of display postscript and level how to get pixar films the various john lasseter pixar computer animated shorts are available on video tape you can order them from direct cinema limited film individual price institutional price luxo jr red s dream tin toy knickknack luxo jr red s dream tin toy all tapes are on vhs ntsc add tape for pal format also available tin toy t shirt knickknack d t shirt includes glasses for individual orders add s h for the first tape or shirt for each additional tape or shirt for institutional orders add s h for the first tape for each additional tape foreign shipping add tape or shirt call international fax to charge to your credit card call first to verify prices and availability or just write to direct cinema limited th street santa monica ca allan braunsdorf has this to say at siggraph they were selling a tape with all four shorts for that was a sale price you can get it for slightly more than that normally maybe i believe it s available from renderman retail at pixar s address pixar west cutting blvd richmond ca fax you can obtain a video directly from pixar which contains luxo jr red s dream tin toy and knicknack for plus for shipping they will take your order over the phone or via fax with a major credit card i ordered mine just last week and received it several days later don t expect to be able to rent a copy from your local video store according to the license agreement printed on the back cover of the case it cannot be rented how do i draw a circle as a bezier or b spline curve the short answer is you can t unless you use a rational spline you can only approximate a circle the approximation may look acceptable but it is sensitive to scale magnify the scale and the error of approximation magnifies deviations from circularity that were not visible in the small can become glaring in the large if you want to do the job right consult the article a menagerie of rational b spline circles by leslie piegl and wayne tiller in ieee computer graphics and applications volume number september pages for rough non rational approximations consult the book computational geometry for design and manufacture by i d faux and m j pratt ellis horwood publishers halsted press john wiley for the best known non rational approximations consult the article good approximation of circles by curvature continuous bezier curves by tor dokken morten daehlen tom lyche and knut morken in computer aided geometric design volume numbers combined june pages elsevier science publishers north holland how to order standards documents the american national standards institute sells ansi standards and also iso international standards their sales office is at mailing address is broadway ny ny it helps if you have the complete name and number some useful numbers to know cgm computer graphics metafile is iso gks graphical kernel system is ansi x phigs programmer s hierarchical interactive graphics system is ansi x iges is asme ansi y m language bindings are often separate but related numbers for example the gks fortran binding is x standards in progress are made available at key milestones to solicit comments from the graphical public this includes you ansi can let you know where to order them most are available from global engineering at how to ftp by email there are a number of sites that archive the usenet sources newsgroups and make them available via an email query system you send a message to an automated server saying something like send comp sources unix fbm and a few hours or days later you get the file in the mail in addition there is at least one ftp by mail server send mail to ftpmail decwrl dec com saying help and it will tell you how to use it note that this service has at times been turned off due to abuse how to tell whether a point is within a planar polygon consider a ray originating at the point of interest and continuing to infinity if it crosses an odd number of polygon edges along the way the point is within the polygon if the ray crosses an even number of edges the point is either outside the polygon or within an interior hole formed from intersecting polygon edges this idea is known in the trade as the jordan curve theorem see eric haines article in glassner s ray tracing book above for more information including treatment of special cases another method is to sum the absolute angles from the point to all the vertices on the polygon if the sum is pi the point is inside if the sum is the point is outside however this method is about an order of magnitude slower than the previous method because evaluating the trigonometric functions is usually quite costly code for both methods plus barycentric triangle testing can be found in the ray tracing news vol no available from princeton edu pub graphics rtnews rtnv n z how to tessellate a sphere one simple way is to do recursive subdivision into triangles the base of the recursion is an octahedron and then each level divides each triangle into four smaller ones jon leech leech cs unc edu has posted a nice routine called sphere c that generates the coordinates it s available for ftp on ftp ee lbl gov and princeton edu specific references on ray tracing and global illumination rick speer maintains a cross indexed ray tracing bibliography highlights of this edition i more than citations spanning the period from through november ii papers from all siggraph graphics interface eurographics cg international and ausgraph proceedings through december iii all citations keyworded for easy lookup iv cross indices by keyword and author v glossary of the keywords used the bib is in the form of a postscript file the printout is pages long below is a list of ftp sites and the dirs that contain the file it s named speer raytrace bib ps z and is compressed at most sites site dir wuarchive wustl edu graphics graphics bib rt bib speer karazm math uh edu pub graphics gondwana ecr mu oz au pub papers nic funet fi pub sci papers graphics coral cs jcu edu au graphics papers eric haines erich eye com maintains ray tracing and radiosity global illumination bibliographies these are in refer format and so can be searched electronically a simple awk script to search for keywords is included with each the bibliographies are available at most of the sites listed above and the most current versions are maintained at princeton edu pub graphics papers as raybib and radbib tom wilson wilson cs ucf edu has collected over abstracts from ray tracing related research papers and books the information is essentially in plaintext and latex and troff formatting programs are included this collection is available at most of the sites above as rtabs siggraph information online from steve cunningham and ralph orlick acm siggraph announces its online information site at siggraph org this site now provides siggraph information via both anonymous ftp and an electronic mail archive server the anonymous ftp service is very standard and the ftp directory includes both conference and publications subdirectories to retrieve information by electronic mail send mail to archive server siggraph org and in the subject or the body of the message include the message send followed by the topic and subtopic you wish a good place to start is with the command send index which will give you an up to date list of available information siggraph panels proceedings available from steve cunningham and bob judd acm siggraph announces the availability of the siggraph panels proceedings at the siggraph org site the proceedings are available in three formats text ascii rtf rich text format suitable for many word processors word ms word for the macintosh they may be retrieved from siggraph org in two ways by anonymous ftp change to one of the directories publications s panels proceedings text rtf word the text and rtf files may be downloaded in ascii mode while the word files are stored in macbinary format and must be downloaded in binary mode each directory contains a table of contents file toc that describes the contents of each panel file by electronic mail send mail to archive server siggraph org you can retrieve either the text or rtf files we suggest that you first retrieve the index files by putting one of the messages send panel txt index send panel rtf index in the subject or body of the message you will get the necessary information to retrieve the actual transcript files graphics mailing lists there are a variety of graphics related mailing list out there each covering either a single product or a single topic i have been an active participant in one of these for some time now and find the focus and expertise which can be brought to bear on an isolated topic to be nothing short of amazing please send me the appropriate information if you have any others you would like to see added name imagine mailing list description discussion forum for users of the imagine d rendering and animation package by impulse inc platforms amiga ibm subscription imagine request email sp paramax com posting imagine email sp paramax com name dctv mailing list description discussion forum for users of the digital creations dctv box software and file formats platforms amiga subscription dctv request nova cc purdue edu posting dctv nova cc purdue edu name rayshade users mailing list description discussion forum for users of the rayshade raytracer platforms most unix boxes amiga mac ibm subscription rayshade request cs princeton edu posting rayshade users cs princeton edu name lightwave d software for toaster mailing list description discussion forum for users of lightwave the video toaster modelling and rendering package platforms amiga subscription lightwave request bobsbox rent com with subscribe lightwave l in your message posting lightwave bobsbox rent com name pov mailing list description discussion forum for dkbtrace and pov renderers platforms unix subscription listserv trearn bitnet posting dkb l trearn bitnet name mailing list for massive parallel rendering description same platforms unix subscription mp render request icase edu posting mp render icase edu specific references on file formats graphics file formats david kay and john levine windcrest mcgraw hill isbn paper isbn hardcover isbn paper comments formats no software this is good imho i prefer books which are non platform dependent questions about this book may be sent to gbook iecc cambridge ma us what about gif gif stands for graphics interchange format it is portable and usable upon a wide variety of platforms it is quite limited in some ways yes the keeper of the faq has some opinions after all and in fact i don t like it much however it looks to me like the most frequently asked question which was not previously covered in this list the following is a list of newsgroups and the like where one could go to find out about gif subject alt binaries pictures faq general info subject alt binaries pictures faq os specific info newsgroups alt binaries pictures d alt binaries pictures misc alt binaries pictures utilities alt binaries pictures fractals alt binaries pictures fine art d news answers available in the indicated usenet newsgroup s or via anonymous ftp from pit manager mit edu in the files pub usenet news answers pictures faq part pub usenet news answers pictures faq part also available from mail server pit manager mit edu by sending a mail message containing any or all of send usenet news answers pictures faq part send usenet news answers pictures faq part send a message containing help to get general information about the mail server also you could check out the resources described in sections and above for more information what is morphing warping is the deformation of an image by mapping each pixel to a new location morphing is blending from one image or object to another one valerie hall has written an excellent introduction to warping and morphing this is available for anonymous ftp from marsh cs curtin edu au in the directory pub graphics bibliography morph there are three files morph intro ps z postscript version many pictures m morph intro txt z text version m responses z responses to morphing questions the files are compressed so you must use binary transfer and uncompress them afterwards how to ray trace height fields height fields are a special case in ray tracing they have a number of uses such as terrain rendering and some optimization is possible thus they get their own faq section note that further references can no doubt be located via the ray tracing bibs in section above the following paper seems to be the definitive reference f kenton musgrave grid tracing fast ray tracing for height fields july musg ps z this is available as research report yaleu dcs rr from yale university it s also in the siggraph fractal modeling in d computer graphics and imaging course notes and best of all it s available on the net nic funet fi pub sci papers musg ps z weedeater math yale edu pub papers musg ms z princeton edu pub graphics papers musg ms z coral cs jcu edu au graphics papers musg ps z gondwana ecr mu oz au pub papers musg ms z and musg ps z an implementation of this paper may be found in rayshade another paper exists a david w paglieroni a sidney m petersen t parametric height field ray tracing j proceedings of graphics interface i canadian information processing society c toronto ontario d may p and still one more musgrave kolb and mace the synthesis and rendering of eroded fractal terrains computer graphics vol no siggraph procedings p how to find the area of a d polygon the area of a triangle is given by in c notation area x y x y x y x y x y x y and the area of a planar polygon is given by area for i i n i area x i y i x i y i area x n y x y n area if the area is a negative number the polygon or triangle is clockwise if positive it is counterclockwise from ronald golman s gem in graphics gems ii see section above area of planar polygons and volume of polyhedra the area of a polygon p p p pn not in the x y plane is given by area polygon n sigma pk x pk where n is the unit vector normal to the plane and p is a polygonal vertex the represents the dot product operator and the x represents the cross product operator sigma represents the summation operator represents the absolute value operator pn is equal to p how to join acm siggraph probably the easiest way to join acm siggraph is to trot over to your local technical library and find a copy of communications of the acm somewhere within the first few pages will be an application blank fill it out and mail it in acm membership for students costs voting or associate membership yearly siggraph student membership costs an additional for voting or associate members also yearly to get tog transactions on graphics it s another for students and for voting or associate members if you just want to join siggraph without joining acm it ll cost you no student discount there are surcharges for overseas airmailing of publications acm member services may be contacted via email at acmhelp acmvm bitnet their phone number is fax number snailmail address acm po box church street station new york new york siggraph will be held in anaheim california at the anaheim convention center just up the street from disneyland on august where can i find mri and ct scan volume data volume data sets are available from the university of north carolina at omicron cs unc edu in pub softlab chvrtd commerical use is prohibited head data a slice mri data set of a human head knee data a slice mri data set of a human knee hipip data the result of a quantum mechanical calculation of a sod data of a one electron orbital of hipip an iron protein sod data an electron density map of the active site of sod superoxide dismutase ct cadaver head data a slice mri data set of a ct study of a cadaver head mr brain data a slice mri data set of a head with skull partially removed to reveal brain rna data an electron density map for staphylococcus aureus ribonuclease specific references on spatial data structures including quadtrees and octrees h samet the design and analysis of spatial data structures addison wesley reading ma isbn h samet applications of spatial data structures computer graphics image processing a nd gis addison wesley reading ma isbn where can i get a program to plot xy z data or f x data gnuplot is a command driven interactive data function plotting program it runs on just about any machine and is very flexible in terms of supported output devices the official north american distribution site for the latest version is dartmouth edu in pub gnuplot more information is available from the usenet newsgroup comp graphics gnuplot and its faq graphics gnuplot faq ace gr xmgr motif xvgr xview is a data function plotting tool for workstations or x terminals using x available from ftp ccalmr ogi edu in ccalmr pub acegr robotx robot is a general purpose plotting and data analysis program requires xview x terminal or workstation available from sunsite unc edu in pub academic data analysis xgraph is a popular two dimensional plotting program that accepts data in a form similar to the unix program graph and displays line graphs scatter plots or bar charts on an x display available from ic berkeley edu in pub drawplot is a program for drawing d plots on x x windows sunview displays or hp terminals available from xcf berkeley edu in src local specific references on pex and phigs pexlib programming manual tom gaskins pages o reilly associates isbn pexlib reference manual edited by steve talbott pages o reilly associates isbn phigs programming manual tom gaskins pages o reilly associates isbn softcover isbn casebound phigs reference manual edited by linda kosko pages o reilly associates isbn siggraph online bibliography project the acm siggraph online bibliography project is a database of over unique computer graphics and computational geometry references in bibtex format available to the computer graphics community as a research and educational resource the database is located at siggraph org users may download the bibtex files via ftp and peruse them offline or telnet to siggraph org and log in as biblio and interactively search the database for entries of interest by keyword additions corrections suggestions may be directed to the admin bibadmin siggraph org john t grieggs telos jet propulsion laboratory oak grove drive pasadena ca m s uucp cit vax elroy chas jpl devvax grieggs arpa jpl devvax grieggs cit vax arpa
comp.graphics	avi to flc converter i am looking for a small utility that will convert a microsoft video avi file to an autodesk animator pro flc file since avis also contain sound it would be nice if this utility also stored the sound track as a wav or voc file currently i m accomplishing this by saving the avi as multiple dibs using video for windows then converting each dib to a gif then loading the gifs into animator for the sound i load the original avi into wavedit and save it as a seperate wav file this requires too many steps to be productive any help will be greatly appreciated thanks don don campbell internet donc cognos com uucp cognos donc cognos inc mail p o box riverside drive ottawa ontario canada k g z
comp.graphics	turning photographic images into thermal print and or negatives i do not know if i am hitting the right news groups or not any help in the right direction is more than welcome i need help finding a company that will take photographic images scanned in and modified by adobe photoshop and turn them into thermal prints or negatives i am looking for a place as close to north carolina as possible the images will be created on a macintosh quadra running adobe photoshop and will then be stored in whatever format the vendor requires perhaps m cartridges the images will be black and white photographs scanned in with a dpi scanner then modified corrected by adobe photoshop if anyone could help me or even give me phone numbers to people who could i would be very grateful also if anyone else is doing what i am planning i would be happy to hear from you with any advice you might provide as to the computer system you use and or any peripherals or software it seemed the quadra would be my best bet to modify photographic images i am planning on buying a quadra with megs of ram a meg hard drive a dpi scanner sony monitor and a meg cartridge drive and perhaps a cd rom i am new to computers and any advice would be great david at hawks seq uncwil edu or hawks dw wl corning com
comp.graphics	need help to find out the address of several companies doing graphics lucas film pixar d eye inc light magic thanks changyaw wangc cs indiana edu
comp.graphics	research positions in d graphics munich germany european computer research centre research positions in d graphics ecrc is currently expanding its research staff in three dimensional graphics we are looking for highly qualified researchers with a phd in computer science and a proven ability to conduct highly innovative research preference will be given to candidates who have strong experience in developing and implementing algorithms for three dimensional graphics visualization and user interaction we presently have positions available for both experienced researchers and recent graduates candidates with especially strong backgrounds may be considered for positions as visiting scientists or for ph d student research positions the european computer industry research centre is located in munich germany with english as the working language the centre is funded by a consortium of major computer companies with a mission to pursue research in fundamental areas of computer science active areas of research include visualization and user interfaces distributed computing parallelism deductive systems and databases the center employs researchers of different nationalities the small but rapidly growing graphics group is currently investigating new methods for three dimensional human computer interaction and the integration of computer vision and computer graphics technology the center has extensive computing facilities which includes sun workstations apple macintoshes a well equipped graphics laboratory and network access to super computer facilities ecrc offers competitive salaries and excellent benefits for immediate consideration send a written application with curriculum vitae telephone number e mail address and references to douglas greer ecrc gmbh arabellastrasse d munich germany
comp.graphics	re wanted playmation info in article apr osf org omar godzilla osf org mark marino writes hi folks does anyone have a copy of playmation they d be willing to sell me i d love to try it out but not for the retail playmation is available direct from anjon associates for it s hard to beat that price also you d be better off with a newer version than an older version that had bugs that have long since been clobbered thanks in advance mark marino omar osf org uunet osf omar ken baer programmer animator hash enterprises usenet baer qiclab uucp applelink kenbaer office we re not hitchhiking anymore we re riding ren hoak
comp.graphics	re bit graphics wonko the sane oehler yar cs wisc edu wrote i was recently talking to a possible employer mine and he made a reference to a bit graphics computer image processing system i seem to remember it being called image or something akin to that anyway he claimed it had bit color a bit alpha channel that s bits of info what could that possibly be for specifically the bit color that s trillion colors many more than the human eye can resolve is this an anti aliasing thing or is this just some magic number to make it work better with a certain processor i m pretty sure most industry strength image processing specific systems i e photo processing gear use as much as bits of color info why why not oversampling is never a bad idea especially if the hardware s only task is image manipulation and profressional photographers demand professional results also to settle a bet with my roommate what are sgi s flagship products i know of iris indigo and crimson but what are the other ones and which is their top of the line sadly i have access to none of them just a dec sigh strange question but anyway there s the vgx line the newer indigo and the onyx systems are the new big boys on the block you can get a processor system with twice the graphics performance of a reality engine there s more but i don t have my handy periodic table of sgi s on me keith
comp.graphics	re hallusion info sean murphy sean aries scs uiuc edu wrote has anyone seen hallusions you can buy a poster of them and it looks like a simple dot pattern when you first look at it but if you focus behind it you see a d picture i m looking for a program that generates these pictures there s a company in texas that makes them but i doubt if they re giving the program away any help would be appreciated there is a program included with the book virtual reality playhouse which will let you generate these pictures it s not a very powerful program but it does an acceptable job for experimentation purposes davidr rincon ema rockwell com
comp.graphics	message for cgcad bart inescn pt i cant get through to the author of rtrace his site is inaccessible can he upload the new version somewhere else please
comp.graphics	nd rfd for open telematic group for realtime multimedia online apps rfd request for discussion for the open telematic group otg i have proposed the forming of a consortium task force for the promotion of naplps jpeg fif to openly discuss ways method procedures algorythms applications implementation extensions of naplps jpeg standards these standards should facilitate the creation of real time online applications that make use of voice video telecommuting hires graphics conferencing distant learning online order entry fax in addition these dicussion would assist all to better understand how sgml cals oda mime oodbms jpeg mpeg fractals sql cdrom cdromxa kodak photocd tcl v fast eia tia can best be incorporated and implemented to develop telematic multimedia applications we want to be able to support dos unix mac windows nt os platforms it is our hope that individuals developers corporations universities r d labs would join in in supporting such an endeavor this would be a not for profit group with bylaws and charter already many corporation have decided to support otg open telematic group so do not delay joining if you are a developer an rfd has been posted to form a usenet newsgroup and a faq will soon be be compose to start promulgating what is known on the subject if you would like to be added to the mailist send email or mail to the address below this group would publish an electronic quarterly naplps jpeg newsletter as well as a hardcopy version we urge all who wants to see cmcs hires based applications the naplps jpeg g r o w decide to join and mutually benefit from this not for profit endeavor note telematic has been defined by mr james martin as the marriage of voice video hi res graphics fax ivr music over telephone lines lan if you would like to get involve write to me at img inter multimedia group internet epimntl world std com p o box ed pimentel gisatl fidonet org atlanta georgia us cis fidonet bbs zyxel k to all that have responded we are trying to acknowledge as soon as possible we have really been inundated with org corp edu willing to get involve it would be nice if upon responded you can state in what capacity you are willing to get involve edimg willard atl ga us ed pimentel gatech kd nc vdbsan willard edimg emory uumind willard edimg willard s house bbs atlanta ga
comp.graphics	ds inv normal array does anyone truely understand the invalid normal array error ds gives you while rendering it seems to present itself while rendering complicated images i have circumvented this problem by rendering at the command line however it would be nice to render inside the editor is this a memory problem craig
comp.graphics	format of gif files could anyone tell me the format of gif files i would like to know how i could determine the size of the picture also are gif files in compressed format how many bits store pixel color information this is probally a simple question but i couldn t find it in the faq email responses would be perferred david lau davidla ecs comm mot com
comp.graphics	re bit graphics a good reason which is why many companies use it for bits pixel is so you can use double buffering for animating scenes i e you have bit planes you write to the one in the background and then flip the entire screen updates to the second image plane the screen updates in one refresh and you don t see different objects appearing in the order that they re drawn as in the cad macdraw effect now your ready to update the image that used to be in the foreground steve thssstb iitmax iit edu iris iit edu about the sg product line who can even keep track nowadays every co seems to as their ads press releases claim redefine computing etc etc as we know it with each new product progress and competition are great but who wants to invest in a system that s obsolete by the time it reaches your desk
comp.graphics	re why does illustrator autotrace so poorly in article b vmcbrt diablo uucp diablo uucp cboesel charles boesel writes i ve been trying to figure out a way to get adobe illustrator to auto trace exactly what i see on my screen but it misses the edges of templates by as many as pixels or more resulting in images that are useless i need exact tracing not approximate i ve tried adjusting the freehand tolerances as well as autotrace tolerances but it doesn t help any suggestions buy adobe streamline problem solved college men get smashed and break something college women get smashed and get broken robin wilson president ryan p malayter chico state university stanford hall notre dame in n d dept of physics comp sci malayter nd edu
comp.graphics	pc oak vga driver available via ftp a user on my bbs accidentally deleted his vga driver for his oak card and has no backup i was wondering if someone knew of an ftp site and path please where such a thing might be obtained thanks there is no religion when a man has good curry call the lizard s den bbs it s yoda usenet nethack xix pc amiga tim clinkenpeel aberrant analytical skeptical agnostic idealist i exclusively represent myself
comp.graphics	re fast polygon routine needed in article rguqoinnrc edna cc swin edu au alan saturn cs swin oz au alan christiansen writes i believe that the algorithms you can get that will only draw convex polygons can be much more efficient than those that can draw concave self intersecting polygons this efficiency can largely be attributed to the fact that simple convex polygons only have a left and a right edge on each scan line complex figure type polygons can be a bit trickier it is true the convex algorithm is faster than a general concave multi outline algorithm but not tremendously faster i spent awhile implementing and optimizing both flavors and the convex turned out about faster this is all c on hp pa risc the compiler got the inner loop shooting the span as fast as possible as far as i could tell for any sort of game the database to render is known ahead of time and can be made all convex definitely the way to go p s sorry but my code cannot be made public domain jesse jesse lackey d eye inc ithaca ny jesse eye com
comp.graphics	fast polygon routines needed i am looking for some fast polygon routines shaded or texture mapped in asm compile with masm or in turbo pascal compile with tp it has to be able to run on a but does not have to look super fast on a but must look good on a if anyone has any such code could you please mail it to me or tell me where it can be got thanks in advance daniel godden genius is only one step away university of western sydney nepean from insanity aarnet internet dgodden st nepean usw edu au but me i am already there
comp.graphics	re virtual reality for x on the cheap ridout bink plk af mil brian s ridout writes in article apr mfltd co uk sts mfltd co uk steve sherwood x writes has anyone got multiverse to work i have built it on svr mips svr s and sun sparcstation there seems to be many bugs in it the dogfight and dactyl simply do nothing after fixing a bug where a variable is defined twice in two different modules one needed setting to static else the client core dumped steve extn sts mfltd co uk uunet mfocus sts i ve tried compiling it on several sparcstations with gcc after fixing up a few bugs missing constant definitions plus a couple of other things i got it to compile link but after starting client server i just get a black window sometimes the client core dumps sometimes the server sometimes i get a broken pipe sometimes it just sits there doing nothing although i occassionally get the cursor to become a cross hair in dog fight but that s it i ve sent word to the author plus what i did to fix it last week but no reply as yet peter k campbell p campbell trl oz au
comp.graphics	graph traversal algorithms hi everyone i am currently planning to write a program that traverses the image of handwritten characters in ascii format and produces circle and line representation of handwritten characters did anybody out there has any experiences on this problem if you have would you post or e mail to please kevin does anyone has program that traverse the digital image and produces circle and line kevin shin kshin bcstec ca boeing com
comp.graphics	re newsgroup split in article c r bm lh mach wlu ca mart mach wlu ca phil martin u writes chris herringshaw tdawson engin umich edu wrote concerning the proposed newsgroup split i personally am not in favor of doing this i learn an awful lot about all aspects of graphics by reading this group from code to hardware to algorithms i just think making different groups out of this is a wate and will only result in a few posts a week per group i kind of like the convenience of having one big forum for discussing all aspects of graphics anyone else feel this way just curious yes i also like knowing where to go to ask a question without getting hell for putting it in the wrong newsgroup i am also against splitting the group the traffic will decrease on any given subject but the required net bandwidth will increase because of multiply cross postings i just went through this with another group i continuously read it is now almost at the point where it is no longer worth reading strongly suggest not doing this dave rogers
comp.graphics	wanted grayscale dithering routine i have some color gifs which i would like to archive in a much smaller size using a grayscale palette of shades the quantization to grays introduces some ugly bands in the pictures which can be nicely eliminated by dithering up to now i have used xv to process the images but now i would like to automate the procedure the problem is that xv can t i think convert images automatically and the obvious alternative pnmplus ppmquant and pnmdither don t even get close to xv s quality pnmdither apparently dithers in rgb even though the images are in grayscale the dithering routine in xv seems to use the natural image colors for the dither is this or any similar routine available in the public domain if so where niclas mattsson exjob math chalmers se
comp.graphics	vrrend where is it kept i m told that vrrend is available on the internet i wanted to know where it is thanks in advance raoul daruwala cs nyu edu
comp.graphics	re rumours about do in article apr mercury unt edu sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes wow a i d be very interested to get my hands on one of these especially considering the fact that motorola has not yet released the which is supposedly the next in the x lineup d the is made by someone other than motorola signetics perhaps and was if memory serves me correctly a compatible single chip micro type chip ie built in extra toys like serial ports ram interfaces etc so laugh all you want but there is such a critter gord wait smos systems vancouver design centre uunet jericho gord gord jericho uunet uu net or even some days
comp.graphics	re mgr naplps gui bbs frontends hi all i am looking into methods i can use to turn my linux based bbs into a full color graphical bbs that supports pc mac linux and amiga callers originally i was inspired by the naplps graphics standard a summary of which hit this group about weeks ago i posted that document forgot part etc but it was more than a summary it was a complete technical description of the protocol it can be ftped from simtel or from wuarchive wustl edu in mirrors msdos naplps following up on software availability of naplps supporting software i find that most terminal programs are commercial the only resonable shareware one being pp which runs soley on msdos machines leaving mac and amiga users to buy full commercial software if they want to try out the bbs i know i wouldn t next most interesting possibility is to port mgr to pc mac amiga i why not write a naplps decoder for your choice of platform and release the code to the net then other willing souls can help port it to other platforms naplps was designed for this type of online interactive graphics much the same as x but while x is intended for high bandwidth network connections naplps was optimized for low bandwidth modem connections is there a color version of mgr for linux does anyone have any other suggestions for a linux based gui bbs i m sure you will receive other suggestions but look at it this way if you wanted to provide a full network connection to linux over a modem would you use slip ppp or would you invent some new way most people would say that slip ppp exist and are reasonably well designed protocols so lets just implement them i see it the same way with naplps it is an existing well thought out extensible protocol for online graphics so why not implement it if you need any advice on implementation just e mail me i am currently getting a beta version of my coreldraw to naplps converter working well enough to release it by may if you or someone else does not get going on a freely available naplps decoder then i intend to do it after i get a my conversion program out of beta and get a couple of other things done michael dillon internet mpdillon halcyon halcyon com c powerhouse fidonet rr armstrong bc v e b voice canada bbs
comp.graphics	patches for sungks due to a number of bugs in gks under sunos i installed patches and patch appears to work fine and has fixed a number of problems patch however which is required to fix a number of other annoying bugs breaks with our applications is there a more recent revision of patch any other ideas scott sloan email cesws cc newcastle edu au university of newcastle fax nsw australia
comp.graphics	re psygnosis cd i titles was re rumours about do mark samson samson prlhp prl philips co uk wrote speaking of psygnosis they have licensed games to philips interative media international for cd i and for the commodore cdtv regards email x x mattias matt dah dsv su se i love it
comp.graphics	front end for povray g day all does anyone know anything about front end for povray x version i mean are there things like user friendly modeller for povray or any modellers which will let me design a scene and produce a file which povray can then read cheers tomek tm tomek tpiatek comp vuw ac nz new zealand tm tomek tpiatek comp vuw ac nz new zealand
comp.graphics	vatican library the vatican library recently made a tour of the us can anyone help me in finding a ftp site where this collection is available thanx in advance j watson
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of on wed apr gmt se psh brunel ac uk peter hauke said peter joachim lous joachim kih no wrote peter does anyone have any other suggestions where the came from peter yep here s a theory that i once heard bandied around rather than thinking peter of the number think of the sound for tea two a sort of anagram on tea for two peter two for tea for tea two un other suggestion is there is no tea above it just and for two many things are possible think binary y n l r t f no wonder there was eve for adam peter malek malek we cooperate in what we agree on and forgive each other for that in which we disagree hassan el banna
comp.graphics	raytracing colours i have a question about recursive backward raytracing when an incident ray i strikes an object at point p first the normal n is calculated light rays are calculated l to ln where n is the number of light sources these being the light rays that do not intersect with anything the reflected ray r and the transmitted ray t is calculated from the formulae calling the routine recursively on r and t will return the colours along the rays r and t as rcol and tcol each object has its own colour ocol and each light source has licol i n the question is how do you combine rcol tcol ocol and all the licol s to get the correct resulting colour to return along the i ray all colours are defined as strucures records having r g b components between and if anyone has done this before could you give me a few hints adrian secchia asecchia cs uct ac za
comp.graphics	re bit graphics apollo now hp have a graphics board that does bit graphics when i heard that i jumped the answer isn t that it can do trillion trillion trillion colors it actually does planes of bits or planes of bits etc for very fast graphics douginoz
comp.graphics	lasergraphics language hi we have an old montage fr mm film recorder when connected to a pc with its processor card it can directly take hpgl targa and lasergraphics language files bit targa is quite ok for raster images but conversion from whatever one happens to have can be quite slow this lasergraphics language seems to be got the source file for one test image a vector based language that can handle one million colors it does some polygons too and perhaps something else the question is where can i find some information about this language a ftp site a book a company address ok it would be nice to have a windows driver for it but i m not that optimistic thanks in advance for any help jussi jussi laaksonen computing centre bo akademi university finland
comp.graphics	matrox pg cv windows driver hi i need a windows driver for the matrox pg cv svga card at the moment windows runs only in the x mode if you have a driver for this card please send it with the oemsetup inf to bockamp informatik tu muenchen de thanks florian bockamp bockamp informatik tu muenchen de o o ooo ooo it s not a bug it s an undocumented feature
comp.graphics	re help needed on hidden line removal in article raynor beech cs scarolina edu raynor cs scarolina edu harold brian raynor writes i am looking for some information of hidden line removal using roberts algorithm something with code or pseudo code would be especially helpful i am required to do this for a class due monday we have very little time to implement these changes it is a very fast paced class the notes given in class leave a lot to be desired so i would vastly appreciate any help actually any algorithm would be nice roberts or no the main problem is two objects intersecting in x and y dimensions need to know which lines to clip off so that one object will appear in front of another if you can give me an ftp address and filename or even the name of a good book i d really appreciate it g day brian i ll be blunt about this the only reasonable explanation of roberts algorithm is in procedural elements for computer graphics rogers mcgraw hill book co go to the library and look at this there is also a somewhat muddled explanation in the first edition of newman and sproull the algorithm described in pecg runs in near linear time luck dave rogers
comp.graphics	wanted how to do a screen dump of a vga screen how can one dump to the printer the content of a vga screen if it were a text screen we can execute a shift printscr but with graphics we have to do a pixed by pixel print it would be greatly appreciated if someone can supply source code for this alternately are there commercial or shareware programs that are available to do this i must be able to shell out of my program to execute this print screen therefore it would be prefferable to have source code thank you in advance rickey tom internet style aruba rickt uu psi com programmer analyst project ze uucp uunet uupsi aruba rickt
comp.graphics	re coreldraw bitmap to scodal in article r rsiinnld zephyr grace cri nz srlnjal grace cri nz writes does anyone know of software that will allow you to convert coreldraw cdr files containing bitmaps to scodal as this is the only format our bureau s filmrecorder recognises corel draw will do it version onwards if you have version perhaps an upgrade is in order another alternative would be to use a different bureau that can take postscript chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester uk m pl internet c c lilley mcc ac uk voice fax janet c c lilley uk ac mcc
comp.graphics	re needed plotting package that does in c qgf k i alta oh com chris zeus alta oh com chris murphy writes in article full gl apr dolphin pts mot com full gl pts mot com glen fullmer writes looking for a graphics cad or whatever package on a x unix box that will take a file with records like hi see roger grywalski s response to re help on network visualization in comp graphics visualization could someone please post roger grywalski s response or point me to where i could find it thanks a lot s raj chaudhury dept of physics raj phys ksu edu kansas state university manhattan ks s raj chaudhury dept of physics raj phys ksu edu kansas state university manhattan ks
comp.graphics	c classes for graphics i m planning on writing several classes to build a raytracing radiosity library on top of and i m wondering if anythink like this is freely available on the net before i go to it what i need is classes like rays vectors colors shaders surfaces media primitives worlds containing primitives and views images please post or mail torgeir veimo studying at the university of bergen i m gona wave my freak flag high jimi hendrix and it would be okay on any other day the police
comp.graphics	re xv problems in article r iv cba cc tut fi jk lehtori cc tut fi kouhia juhana writes recent discussion about xv s problems were held in some newsgroup here is some text users of xv might find interesting i have also minor ideas for bit xv e mail me for them deleted for space basically complaints that xv is an bit program and that making several modifications to the rgb sliders is slow because of screen updates in reverse order try clicking in the auto apply box to switch it off then make your mods then click on apply there is no problem as stated it has already been solved if you look carefully yes xv is an bit program this is not a bug you can edit individual pallette entries or do global colour changes crop scale etc clearly the program must save out the altered image else all your work would be thrown away so yes it saves out bit images of course xv can import bit images and quantises them down to bits this is a handy facility not a bug how would you suggest doing colour editing on a bit file how would you group related colours to edit them together only global changes could be done unless the software were very different and much more complicated if you want to do colour editing on a bit image you need much more powerfull software which is readily available commercially and lastly jpeg is a compression algorithm it can be applied to any image of arbitrary bit depth again this is not a bug it is a way of saving disk space later chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester uk m pl internet c c lilley mcc ac uk voice fax janet c c lilley uk ac mcc
comp.graphics	re vatican library reposted by request these images are great but they are also large x pixels is a typical size be warned regards tom lane from rsquires cyclops eece unm edu roger squires newsgroups comp archives subject rec arts books vatican library exhibit at library of congress online date feb gmt x original newsgroups rec arts books x original date feb gmt archive name auto rec arts books vatican library exhibit at library of congress online this is from another newsgroup looks quite interesting rms announcing a new online exhibit from the library of congress rome reborn the vatican library renaissance culture an exhibit at the library of congress washington dc available by anonymous ftp from seq loc gov pub vatican exhibit rome reborn the vatican library and renaissance culture presents some of the vatican library s most precious manuscripts books and maps many of which played a key role in the humanist recovery of the classical heritage of greece and rome the exhibition presents the untold story of the vatican library as the intellectual driving force behind the emergence of rome as a political and scholarly superpower during the renaissance the exhibit will be on display in the jefferson building of the library of congress from january through april the online exhibit will be available by anonymous ftp indefinitely the exhibit is divided into nine sections the vatican library archaeology humanism mathematics music medicine biology nature described a wider world i how the orient came to rome and a wider world ii how rome went to china each section consists of its own sub directory within the exhibit directory and contains the exhibit text for that section and separate jpeg image files for each object this online exhibit includes not only objects from the library of congress exhibit but also the alternate objects brought from rome to be used if there were a problem with one of the primary objects and items omitted later in the planning process this exhibit will be of interest to medieval and renaissance scholars in particular but also to art historians historians of science or medicine early music scholars students of the humanist movement students of printing and the printed word theologians scholars of both far and near eastern studies and to librarians and information professionals please get the readme file for details on what files this exhibit contains if you have questions about how to use ftp speak to your local computer support person if you have questions or comments about the content of the exhibit please write to vatican kell loc gov while if you have any questions or comments on the system please contact me k d ellis k d ellis special projects office library of congress washington dc internet kell seq loc gov
comp.graphics	re coreldraw bitmap to scodal in article r gmginn fm zephyr grace cri nz srlnjal grace cri nz writes yes i am aware coreldraw exports in scodal version did it quite well apart from a few hassles with radial fills version revb is better but if you try to export in scodal with a bitmap image included in the drawing it will say something like cannot export scodal with bitmap at least it does on my version oh ok then sorry for misunderstanding if anyone out there knows a way around this i am all ears temporal images make a product called filmpak which converts autocad plots to scodal postscript to scodal and now gif to scodal but it costs and i was just wondering if there was anything out there that just did the bitmap to scodal part a tad cheaper maybee you should persuade your burea that for only they can become much more competitive taking input from autocad postscript andgif as well as scodl seriously this sounds like something the bureau should have or find another bureau you should not be the one buting this software chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester uk m pl internet c c lilley mcc ac uk voice fax janet c c lilley uk ac mcc
comp.graphics	re adobe photo shop type software for unix x motif platforms in article c w xb iv world std com wdm world std com wayne michael writes i have been searching for a quality image enhancement and manipulation package for unix x motif platforms that is comparable to adobe photo shop for the mac corel draw will be able to do this as it will include the photopaint stuff that the pc version got with version don t hold your breath though chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester uk m pl internet c c lilley mcc ac uk voice fax janet c c lilley uk ac mcc
comp.graphics	re bit graphics in article apr cs wisc edu oehler yar cs wisc edu wonko the sane writes i was recently talking to a possible employer mine and he made a reference to a bit graphics computer image processing system i seem to remember it being called image or something akin to that anyway he claimed it had bit color a bit alpha channel that s bits of info what could that possibly be for specifically the bit color that s trillion colors many more than the human eye can resolve is this an anti aliasing thing or is this just some magic number to make it work better with a certain processor well bit colour could be for improved resolution but bits per channel seems like a bit excessive i have seen a paper that quoted bits per channel of bits for computational precision more than that would seem to be wasted perhaps the frame buffer uses another colourspace which needs more bits to represent the full range rgb is a cube so it is a compact encoding most likely however is that there are two separate bit bits per component frame buffers this set up called double buffering allows a complex d picture to be built up on one buffer while the other buffer containing the previous frame is displayed this makes for smoother animation sadly i have access to none of them just a dec sigh well hey if you want to brag about numbers the range can take a pxg turbo card with bits per pixel full double buffering two bit buffers a bit z buffer and an extra bit buffer for off screen image storage mind you the card costs more than your workstation chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester uk m pl internet c c lilley mcc ac uk voice fax janet c c lilley uk ac mcc
comp.graphics	re turning photographic images into thermal print and or negatives also if anyone else is doing what i am planning i would be happy to hear from you with any advice you might provide as to the computer system you use and or any peripherals or software it seemed the quadra would be my best bet to modify photographic images i am planning on buying a quadra with megs of ram a meg hard drive a dpi scanner sony monitor and a meg cartridge drive and perhaps a cd rom i am new to computers and any advice would be great well i have lots of experience with scanning in images and altering them as for changing them back into negatives is that really possible scanning and altering is no big deal i don t know what types of features you have in your version of photoshop but the one i use which incidentally is on a quadra has gallery effects and all types of other neato stuff i m just wondering why you would want to put your images back into negatives because once you print the image out that s your print do you know what exactly your aim is in all of this like are you doing this just for fun for a business to gain more computer knowledge for a project you re working on otherwise i guess i don t know if i d be helping or not by posting info on scanning and stuff ok cool seeya jennifer urso the oh so bitter woman of utter blahness but cheerful undertones
comp.graphics	re help need bits viewer in article seti inria fr deniaud cartoon inria fr gilles deniaud writes i m looking for a program which is able to display bits images we are using a sun sparc equipped with parallax graphics board running x utah raster toolkit using getx convert your sun raster files presumably to ppm with the pbm toolkit then convert ppm to utah rle format with ppmtorle which is provided in the toolkit i seem to remember that xloadimage can do bit servers too possibly xwud the x window un dump program can display bit images certainly xwd can grab them chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester uk m pl internet c c lilley mcc ac uk voice fax janet c c lilley uk ac mcc
comp.graphics	povray tga rle hello i have some problem in converting tga file generated by povray to rle file when i convert i do not get any warning message but if i use xloadimage getx something is wrong error messages are targatorle o o rle data tga xloadimage o rle o rle is a x bit rle image with no map will dither to bits with gamma of dithering image done building ximage done xloadimage x error badvalue integer parameter out of range for operation on x xloadimage x error badwindow invalid window parameter on xb i know that i need to install ppmtorle and tgatoppm but i do not spend time to install them even i do not want to generate rgb from povray and then convert them to rle if possible rgb to rle works but it will mess up my directory with so many files and it needs more steps to finally convert to rle file say cat rawtorle rleflip does any body out there have same experience problems thanks in advance j park
comp.graphics	re wanted playmation info in article apr qiclab scn rain com baer qiclab scn rain com ken baer writes in article apr osf org omar godzilla osf org mark marino writes hi folks does anyone have a copy of playmation they d be willing to sell me i d love to try it out but not for the retail playmation is available direct from anjon associates for oops forgot the phone number it s ken baer programmer animator hash enterprises usenet baer qiclab uucp applelink kenbaer office we re not hitchhiking anymore we re riding ren hoak
comp.graphics	please help point in concave polyhedra dear netters i am looking for c source code to test if a d point lies within a concave polyhadra i have read a few articles about this and know that two solutions exist parity counting and angle sumation both ideas are pretty simple but coding is not so i wonder if there exists public domain source code for this another rough solition don t care special cases is ray casting which is reported to be more or less independent of number of faces consisting the polyhedra if a special space indexing is used m tamminen et al ray casting and block model conversion using a spatial index computer aided designs but the prerequirement is that all the facets of polyhedra have their normal pointing outside of polyhedra how this could be done in practice i have a set of trangles consisting the polyhedra how could i ensure their normals pointing outside the polyhedra the paper mentioned above assumed this is already the case i have also read some standard computer graphics textbook about hidden line removal it says if we make the rule that the normal of a facet pointing toward viewer standing far away from the polyhedra again how to make sure any pointers are welcome yaohong jiang queen s university kingston ont jiangy qucdn queensu ca
comp.graphics	triangulized data wanted with texture to be mapped i need triangulized data of some nice looking model with some texture mapping it would be better if the parametric values of each vertex for the surface before triangulized are avaliable along with the euclidean points so that we could use them for texture mapping thanks kwansik
comp.graphics	where is faq where can i find it thanks kwansik
comp.graphics	what is the difference between raytracing and rendering hello i ve raytraced and rendered and the only difference i ve found is that raytracing takes a hell of a lot longer am i missing something later z
comp.graphics	re tiff complexity anyone who thinks that tiff is too complex hasn t dealt with cgm asn cda dca sgml or any one of a number of other very successful file format people seem perfectly capable dealing with these others dealing with the format of tiff is frankly less difficult than dealing with the dct lzw and fax encoding of the image data the majority of the libraries which deal with tiff are dedicated to these other issues rather than with simply decoding the tags and parameters perhaps people are overwhelmed in comparison with some rather simpleminded formats such as gif pcx and bmp but to suggest that tiff is so complex as to be doomed to failure is ludicrous that doesn t mean that gif isn t fine but don t even thing about using it in many instances gif is very nice for use in low end photos applications and for screen grabs and such but it would never do for high volume or high resolution systems fax is nice but it doesn t do color and gif doesn t do b w all that well jpeg is nice for high resolution color but is slow for low end the advantage tiff brings to the table is its ability to handle all these situations and then some naturally it s more complex but i ld rather propose tiff imaging solutions over imaging systems based on having to deal with file formats anyday you may find that tiff is too complicated for your personal tastes but please don t wrail against it s complexity the complexity it contains is required to provide the functionality it does and doesn t come close to the complexity found in most commercially viable file formats if we re in philosophical arguments against complexity let s all go program in scheme and forth and do imaging with run length encoding
comp.graphics	dxf to pcx gif tif or tga does anyone know of a program for the pc that will take autocad dxf format files and convert them to a raster format like pcx gif etc thanks in advance ed ed murashie us mail beckman instruments inc phone diagnostic system group fax s kraemer blvd w internet murashiea mail beckman com brea ca
comp.graphics	i donwloaded a bin file from a unix machine now what i just donwloaded a bin file from a unix machine which is supposed to be converted to a mac format does anyone know what i need to do to this file to get it into any dos mac or unix readable format someone mentioned fetch on the unix machine is this correct could someone explain the bin format a little thanks elizabeth elizabeth strickler matess gsusgi gsu edu
comp.graphics	help d studio ipas hi can anyone please give me some ftp sites to get ipas processes for d studio thanks warren
comp.graphics	computer graphics studies at the technion technion israel institute of technology department of computer science graduate studies in computer graphics applications are invited for graduate students wishing to specialize in computer graphics and related fields active research is being conducted in the fields of image rendering geometric modelling and computer animation state of the art graphics workstations sun silicon graphics and video equipment are available the technion offers full scholarship support tuition and assistantships for suitable candidates for more information contact dr craig gotsman computer science deptartment technion israel institute of technology haifa israel gotsman cs technion ac il
comp.graphics	dwg gcd dd formats reference needed can some kind soul point me to references for the above formats thanks earl
comp.graphics	any autodesk d concepts users out there if you are a user of autodesk d concepts and are willing to answer a small number of short questions then please send me email earl boebert sctc com
comp.graphics	re raytracing colours asecchia cs uct ac za adrian secchia writes when an incident ray i strikes an object at point p the reflected ray r and the transmitted ray t is calculated from the formulae calling the routine recursively on r and t will return the colours along the rays r and t as rcol and tcol each object has its own colour ocol and each light source has licol i n the question is how do you combine rcol tcol ocol and all the licol s to get the correct resulting colour to return along the i ray first of all this is not a snide response if you re confused about this issue you will stumble over a lot of other things as well i suggest that the weakness is your reference material get an introduction to ray tracing by andrew glassner for very good coverage of the raytracing algorithm you could also refer to the nd edition of foley van dam on to the question the simple answer is that you just keep adding up all the contributions and then clamping at the maximum intensity for example if your intensity values range from to then keep adding up and clamp the resultant values to you might have to clamp the lower bound to if you have dark bulbs but that s another issue so you get some illumination equation like this i lambient ldiffuse light n lreflected ltransparent the contribution due to reflection is just summed with the light intensity as is the light due to transparency now a slightly less hand waving illumination equation is this i kala kdld light n krlr ktlt that is each component of the illumination equation is governed by the material constants ka kd kr and kt so the maximum you can get from transparency for a given object for example might be for a purple colored glass object hopefully this answers your question i ll forward my illumination equation sermon to you also steve hollasch kubota pacific computer inc hollasch kpc com santa clara california
comp.graphics	re what is the difference between raytracing and rendering zlg uxa cso uiuc edu zhenhai li writes hello i ve raytraced and rendered and the only difference i ve found is that raytracing takes a hell of a lot longer am i missing something yes there are many methods of rendering raytracing is one of them you didn t say what you mean by rendering so i won t guess methods of rendering include o pencil and graph paper doing the math by hand o wireframe rendering of the d projection o hidden line rendering o scanline rendering using painter s algorithm bsp trees z buffer other o raytracing o radiosity o holographic projection to film o combination of any of the above steve hollasch kubota pacific computer inc hollasch kpc com santa clara california
comp.graphics	dna helix looking for a tiff eps of a dna helix e mail any auggestions please
comp.graphics	re i donwloaded a bin file from a unix machine now what in article matess gsusgi gsu edu matess gsusgi gsu edu eliza strickler writes i just donwloaded a bin file from a unix machine which is supposed to be converted to a mac format does anyone know what i need to do to this file to get it into any dos mac or unix readable format someone mentioned fetch on the unix machine is this correct could someone explain the bin format a little this is almost certainly a macbinary file which is an encoded version of a mac file so the resource fork and data fork get preserved you need a program that converts this to a regular file if this is a macbinary file you may have downloaded it in text mode and is probably corrupt if you did if you re using ftp to transfer it at any point make sure you type binary first if you can open the file with a text editor and find this file must be converted with bin at the top it is a binhex file and can be decoded with binhex among other programs niko schuessler project vincent systems manager email niko iastate edu iowa state university computation center voice ames ia snail durham
comp.graphics	rfd comp multimedia open telematic rfd request for discussion for the open telematic group otg i have proposed the forming of a consortium task force for the promotion of naplps jpeg fif to openly discuss ways method procedures algorythms applications implementation extensions of naplps jpeg standards these standards should facilitate the creation of real time online applications that make use of voice video telecommuting hires graphics conferencing distant learning online order entry fax in addition these dicussion would assist all to better understand how sgml cals oda mime oodbms jpeg mpeg fractals sql cdrom cdromxa kodak photocd tcl v fast and eia tia can best be incorporated and implemented to develop telematic multimedia applications we want to be able to support dos unix mac windows nt os platforms it is our hope that individuals developers corporations universities r d labs would join in in supporting such an endeavor this would be a not for profit group with bylaws and charter already many corporations have decided to support otg open telematic group so do not delay joining if you are a developer an rfd has been posted to form a usenet newsgroup and a faq will soon be be composed to start promulgating what is known on the subject if you would like to be added to the maillist send email or mail to the address below this group would publish an electronic quarterly naplps jpeg newsletter as well as a hardcopy version we urge all who wants to see cmcs hires based applications the naplps jpeg g r o w decide to join and mutually benefit from this not for profit endeavor note telematic has been defined by mr james martin as the marriage of voice video hi res graphics fax ivr music over telephone lines lan if you would like to get involve write to me at img inter multimedia group internet epimntl world std com p o box ed pimentel gisatl fidonet org atlanta georgia us cis fidonet bbs zyxel k edimg willard atl ga us ed pimentel gatech kd nc vdbsan willard edimg emory uumind willard edimg willard s house bbs atlanta ga
comp.graphics	wanted bit viewer hello thanks to the people who helped me with the problem of displaying bit images all the viewers like xli xloadimage and display are converting the bit images to bit before display them on the screen what i really want is a viewer with make use of the bit frame screen buffer in our case the parallax one thanks in advance gilles ps we are using a sun sparc running x
comp.graphics	scientific visualization of chemical systems molecules has evolved from an esoteric academic subject into a international industry computer graphics has played a decisive role in this transformation by allowing chemists to build visualize and interact with complex geometrical objects while computer scientists are conversant in the language of their own discipline they are often unfamiliar with the terminology simulation techniques and practical needs of research chemists similarly chemists are often unfamiliar with the latest paradigms and technological advances in graphical computing this interdisciplinary course is intended to bridge the gap between computer science and chemistry and to equip chemistry researchers who wish to be more than just casual users of prepackaged graphics software although this is not intended to be a course in computational chemistry or drug design data sets from chemical research problems will be used in lab and students will be encouraged to bring data sets of their own lab exercises and projects will be carried out using data flow programming ibm visualization data explorer software and students will have access to cornell theory center computing resources including video recording equipment audience researchers and students in the chemical and biological sciences interested in integrating state of the art computer graphics into their research computer scientists wishing to gain familiarity with a major application of scientific visualization the class size will be limited to participants on a first come first served basis level graduate advanced undergraduate or credits may be taken without credit as a workshop calculus linear algebra and introductory chemistry required familiarity with unix x windows and c is useful but not required date june credits june or credits time mon fri am to pm and pm to pm cost or credit credits format the course will be held in the theory center training facility where computer workstations will be available daily lectures will be interspersed with laboratory exercises and ample time will be provided for project enablement and familiarization with the new computing environment students enrolled for one credit will be graded on the basis of their laboratory exercises and short final project those enrolled for a second credit will receive more advanced lectures be given more time for project development and meet daily to share experience and discuss problems encountered content may vary elements of computer graphics polygonal rendering lighting models ray tracing volumetric rendering stereo graphics animation introduction to data flow programming dx interactivity representing the atom size time and energy scales basic classical and quantum mechanics important categories of molecules small molecules biopolymers surfaces and catalysts miscellaneous current applications data formats and conversions advanced molecular graphics techniques types of simulation and experiment electronic structure molecular dynamics mechanics electrostatics x ray crystallography nmr quantum dynamics and spectroscopy instructors the course will be taught by two instructors topics related to computer graphics will be handled by dr bruce land project leader of visualization cornell national supercomputing facility chemistry specific aspects of the course will be handled by dr richard e gillilan visualization specialist and research scientist cornell national supercomputing facility to register mail completed form to cornell university school of continuing education and summer sessions b day hall ithaca ny questions richard gillilan richard tc cornell edu important acceptance will be first come first served and based on a target class size of full credit and single or non credit participants deadline may application form scientific visualization of chemical systems chemistry computer science u s social security number if available cornell id number if available name last first middle suffix jr etc address home address where grades will be mailed local phone home phone academic discipline course number check one chemistry computer science credits status undergraduate student smart node consultant graduate student smart node advisor post doctoral faculty other explain corporate commercial research staff other explain name of firm indicate which of the following best describes you optional african american alaskan native asian american caucasian hispanic american native american list special needs e g mobility impaired accommodations blocks of rooms are available at the sheraton reservations must be made no later than may be sure to tell them you are here for the cornell theory center visualization workshop sheraton inn one sheraton drive ithaca fax rates starting at other local motels make your reservation early our workshop coincides with other cornell events econo lodge cayuga mall n triphammer rd ithaca fax rates from ask for the cornell rate dorm rooms have also been reserved participants both credit and non credit participants who are interested in dorm rooms should call below for registration information jeanne miller or donna smith email jeanne tc cornell edu or donna tc cornell edu
comp.graphics	analysis on text readins utils ocr wanted ibm pc from tolsty thu apr to newsserv newcom kiae su newsgroups comp periphs comp graphics digest comp graphics comp binaries ibm pc wanted alt graphics pixutils bit listserv omrscan message id kaj nzfm w nsk uucp free msk su organization nsk ran from andrey v shorin tolsty nsk uucp free msk su date thu apr subject analysis on text reading utils needed ibm pc distribution msk hi does anybody know any reliable utils to read english texts with scanner i want some analysis on quality of recognition because i want to read texts which i get by fax you know quality on faxes is rather bad the scanner i have is b w and dpi but if there exist any good software that needs other specifications that will be ok please send messages to my e mail or on conference server i ll summarize them and consider your recomendations thank you andrey v shorin scientific council on complex problem cybernetics russian academy of sciences e mail tolsty nsk uucp free msk su tel fax
comp.graphics	cross sobel roberts filters i saw an imaging program some time ago on an amiga that had cross sobel and roberts filters for edge detection can anybody direct me to these algorithms paul denize paul denize internet pdenize waikato ac nz department of computer science university of waikato phone hamilton ext new zealand fax
comp.graphics	apr computer graphics resource listing weekly part archive name graphics resources list part last modified computer graphics resource listing weekly posting part last change april many faqs including this listing are available on the archive site pit manager mit edu alias rtfm mit edu in the directory pub usenet news answers the name under which a faq is archived appears in the archive name line at the top of the article this faq is archived as graphics resources list part there s a mail server on that machine you send a e mail message to mail server pit manager mit edu containing the keyword help without quotes in the message body you can see in many other places for this listing see the item places to find the resource listing for more information items changed re arranged the subjects in order to fir better in the k article limit i plan on changing headers soon so be careful only the resource listing keys are sure to remain in the subject line computer graphics ftp site list by eric haines mail servers and graphics oriented bbses plotting packages i m thinking of making this post bi weekly what do you think lines which got changed have the character in front of them added lines are prepended with a removed lines are just removed use diff to locate these changes this text is c copyright of nikolaos c fotis you can copy freely this file provided you keep this copyright notice intact compiled by nikolaos nick c fotis e mail nfotis theseas ntua gr please contact me for updates corrections etc disclaimer i do not guarantee the accuracy of this document use it at your own risk this is mainly a guide for computer graphics software i would suggest reading the comp graphics faq for image analysis stuff it s entitled date comp graphics frequently asked questions faq john t grieggs grieggs jpl devvax jpl nasa gov is the poster of the official comp graphics faq i have included my comments within braces and nikolaos fotis contents of the resource listing part places to find the resource listing archie notes computer graphics ftp site list by eric haines mail servers and graphics oriented bbses ray tracing graphics related mailing lists d graphics editors a public domain free and shareware systems b commercial systems scene description languages solids description formats part plotting packages image analysis software image processing and display part scene generators geographical data maps data files d scanners digitized d data background imagery textures datafiles introduction to rendering algorithms a ray tracing b z buffer depth buffer c others where can i find the geometric data for the a teapot b space shuttle image annotation software scientific visualization stuff molecular visualization stuff gis geographical information systems software future additions please send me updates info places to find the resource listing this file is crossposted to comp graphics comp answers and news answers so if you can t locate it in comp graphics you re advised to search in comp answers or news answers the latter groups usually are archived in your site contact your sysadmin for more info these articles are posted to comp graphics times a month and are kept in many places see below many faqs including this one are available on the archive site pit manager mit edu alias rtfm mit edu in the directory pub usenet news answers the name under which a faq is archived appears in the archive name line at the top of the article this faq is archived as graphics resources list part there s a mail server on that machine you send a e mail message to mail server pit manager mit edu containing help in the subject field the inria graphlib mail server mirrors this posting see under the subject mail servers the resource listing is accesible through wais in the machine enuxva eas asu edu port under the name graphics resources list it s got a digest type line before every numbered item for purposes of indexing another place that monitors the listing is the maasinfo files for more info contact robert e maas rem btr com yet another place to search for faqs in general is the switch swiss academic and research network system in switzerland interactive telnet nic switch ch login as info move to the info service usenet periodic postings directory search in the index file by typing and the word to look for you may then just read the faq in the faqs directory or decide to fetch it by one of the following methods ftp login to nic switch ch as user anonymous and enter your internet style address after being prompted for a password cd info service usenet periodic postings mail send e mail to rfc archive server nic switch ch x s archive server ou nic o switch prmd switch admd arcom c ch enter help in the bodypart to receive instructions no information is required in the subject header line archie the archie is a service system to locate ftp places for requested files it s appreciated that you will use archie before asking help in the newsgroups archie servers archie au or aussie nz archie funet fi or finland eur archie th darmstadt de or ger cs huji ac il or israel archie kuis kyoto u ac jp or japan archie sogang ac kr or korea archie ncu edu tw or telnet twn archie doc ic ac uk or uk ireland archie sura net or usa md archie unl edu password archie usa ne archie ans net or usa ny archie rutgers edu or usa nj archie nz or new zealand connect to archie server with telnet and type archie as username to get help type help you can get xarchie or archie which are clients that call archie without the burden of a telnet session xarchie is on the x r contrib tape and archie on comp sources misc vol to get information on how to use archie via e mail send mail with subject help to archie account at any of above sites note to janet pss users the united kingdom archie site is accessible on the janet host doc ic ac uk connect to it and specify archie as the host name and archie as the username notes excerpted from the faq article please do not post or mail messages saying i can t ftp could someone mail this to me there are a number of automated mail servers that will send you things like this in response to a message there are a number of sites that archive the usenet sources newsgroups and make them available via an email query system you send a message to an automated server saying something like send comp sources unix fbm and a few hours or days later you get the file in the mail computer graphics ftp site list by eric haines computer graphics related ftp sites and maintainers compiled by eric haines erich eye com and nick fotis nfotis theseas ntua gr ray tracers rayshade a great ray tracer for workstations on up also for pc mac amiga pov son and successor to dkb trace written by compuservers for more questions call drew wells compuserve com or dave buck david buck carleton ca art ray tracer with a good range of surface types part of vort package dkbtrace another good ray tracer from all reports pcs mac ii amiga unix vms last two with x previewer etc rtrace portugese ray tracer does bicubic patches csg d text etc etc an ms dos version for use with djgpp dos extender go exists also as a mac port vivid a shareware raytracer for pcs binary only author stephen coy coy ssc vax boeing com the no source version is available to registered users us direct from the author ray steve hollasch s dimensional ray tracer renders hyperspheres hypertetrahedra hyperplanes and hyperparallelepipeds there s a separate real time wireframe viewer written in gl called wire mtv qrt dbw yet more ray tracers some with interesting features distributed parallel raytracers xdart a distributed ray tracer that runs under x there are server binaries which work only on decstations sparcs hp snakes x series and next the clients are distributed as binaries and c source inetray a network version of rayshade needs sun rpc or newer contact andreas thurnherr ant ips id ethz ch prt vm pray parallel ray tracers volume renderers vrend cornell s volume renderer from kartch devine caffey warren fortran radiosity and diffuse lighting renderers radiance a ray tracer w radiosity effects by greg ward excellent shading models and physically based lighting simulation unix x based though has been ported to the amiga and the pc india an indian radiosity package based on radiance sgi rad an interactive radiosity package that runs on sgi machines with a spaceball it includes a house database author guy moreillon moreillo ligsg epfl ch rad a simple public domain radiosity package in c the solution can be run stand alone on any unix box but the walk through requires a sgi d author bernard kwok g kwok cs yorku ca renderers which are not raytracers and graphics libraries sipp scan line z buffer and phong shading renderer now uses the shadow buffer algorithm tcl sipp a tcl command interface to the sipp rendering program tcl sipp is a set of tcl commands used to programmed sipp without having to write and compile c code commands are used to specify surfaces objects scenes and rendering options it renders either in ppm format or in utah raster toolkit rle format or to the photo widget in the tk based x applications vogle graphics learning environment device portable vogl an sgi gl like library based on vogle rend a fast polygon renderer for intel s and up version on up it s not photorealistic but rather a real time renderer xsharp dr dobb s journal pc renderer source code with budget texture mapping modellers wireframe viewers vision d mac modeler can output radiance rayshade files irit a csg solid modeler with support for freeform surfaces x d a wireframe viewer for x dv d wireframe graphics toolkit with c source dv objects other stuff look at major pc archives like wuarchive one such file is dkit zip pv d a shareware front end modeler for povray still in beta test french docs for now price for registering french francs save disabled some extra utilities dxf files for the registered version geometric viewers salem a gl based package from dobkin et al for exploring mathematical structures geomview a gl based package for looking and interactively manipulating d objects from geometry center at minnesota xyz geobench experimental geometry zurich is a workbench for geometric computation for macintosh computers wire gl wireframe previewer for steve hollasch s ray see above data formats and data sets for ray tracing spd a set of procedural databases for testing ray tracers nff simplistic file format used by spd off another file format p d a lispy file format tddd imagine d modeler format has converters for rayshade nff off etc also includes a nice postscript object displayer some great models ttdddlib converts to from tddd ttddd off nff rayshade imagine and vort d objects also outputs framemaker mif files and isometric views in postscript registered users get a tex pk font converter and a superquadric surfaces generator glenn lewis glewis pcocd intel com note ttdddlib is also known as t dlib chvrtd chapel hill volume rendering test datasets includes volume sets for two heads a brain a knee electron density maps for rna and others written material on rendering rt news collections of articles on ray tracing rt bib references to articles on ray tracing in refer format rad bib references to articles on radiosity global illumination speer rt bib rick speer s cross referenced rt bib in postscript rt abstracts collection by tom wilson of abstracts of many rt articles paper bank project various technical papers in electronic form contact juhana kouhia jk cs tut fi online bibliography project the acm siggraph online bibliography project is a database of over unique computer graphics and computational geometry references in bibtex format available to the computer graphics community as a research and educational resource the database is located at siggraph org users may download the bibtex files via ftp and peruse them offline or telnet to siggraph org and log in as biblio and interactively search the database for entries of interest by keyword for the people without internet access there s also an e mail server send mail to archive server siggraph org and in the subject or the body of the message include the message send followed by the topic and subtopic you wish a good place to start is with the command send index which will give you an up to date list of available information additions corrections suggestions may be directed to the admin bibadmin siggraph org image manipulation libraries utah raster toolkit nice image manipulation tools pbmplus a great package for image conversion and manipulation libtiff library for reading writing tiff images imagemagick x package for display and interactive manipulation of images uses its own format miff and includes some converters xv x based image display manipulation and format converter xloadimage xli displays various formats on an x screen khoros a huge excellent system for image processing with a visual programming interface and much much more uses x windows fbm another set of image manipulation tools somewhat old now img image manipulation displays on x screen a bit old now xflick plays fli animation under x xanim plays any resolution fli along with gif s including gif a animation extensions dl s and amiga iff animations j l and iff pictures including ham ehb and color cycling sdsc sdsc image tools package san diego supercomputing center for image manipulation and conversion clrpaint a bit paint program for sgi bit workstations and bit indigos libraries with code for graphics graphics gems i ii iii code from the ever so useful books spline patch tar z spline patch ray intersection routines by sean graves kaleido computation and d display of uniform polyhedra mirrored in wuarchive this package computes and displays the metrical properties of polyhedra author dr zvi har el e mail rl gauss technion ac il means site is an official distributor so is most up to date north america please look for things on your own continent first wuarchive wustl edu graphics graphics get contents file for a roadmap graphics graphics objects tddd the ttddd objects and converters mirrors unix c graphics rayshade ray tracer mtv ray tracer vort ray tracer fbm pbmplus popi utah raster toolkit mirrors msdos graphics dkb ray tracer fli raytracker demos pub rad tar z sgi rad graphics graphics radiosity radiance and indian radiosity package msdos ddjmag ddj zip version of xsharp with fast texture mapping there s lots more including bibs graphics gems i ii code off rtn radiance nff sipp spline patch intersection routines textbook errata source code from roy hall s book illumination and color in computer generated imagery etc graphics graphics packages kaleido kaleido george kyriazis kyriazis turing cs rpi edu princeton edu pub graphics note capital g rayshade ray tracer and separate executable color quantization code spd rt news wilson s rt abstracts rt bib utah raster toolkit newer fbm graphics gems i ii iii code pub graphics directory salem and other stuff craig kolb cek princeton edu replaces weedeater math yale edu note the capital g in pub graphics because there s a trouble with princeton s incoming area you can upload rayshade specific stuff to weedeater math yale edu alfred ccs carleton ca pub dkbtrace dkb ray tracer pub pov ray pov ray pvray compuserve group ray tracer or pov david buck david buck carleton ca avalon chinalake navy mil d objects multiple formats utilities file format documents this site was created to be a d object repository for the net francisco x dejesus dejesus archimedes chinalake navy mil omicron cs unc edu pub softlab chvrtd chapel hill volume rendering test datasets ftp mv com official ddj ftp repository xsharp peipa essex ac uk the pilot european image processing archive in a directory ipa synth or something like that there are image synthesis packages adrian clarke alien essex ac uk barkley berkeley edu tcl extensions tsipp b tar z tcl sipp mark diekhans markd grizzly com or markd neosoft com acs cps msu edu pub sass x window fonts converter into rayshade polygons rayshade animation tool s ron sass sass cps msu edu hobbes lbl gov radiance ray trace radiosity package greg ward gjward lbl gov geom umn edu pub geomview geomview contact for geomview software geom umn edu ftp arc umn edu pub gvl tar z the latest version of bob icol and raz source a manual man pages and binaries for irix are included bob is a real time volume renderer pub contains also many volume datasets ken chin purcell ken ahpcrc umn edu ftp kpc com pub graphics holl steve hollasch s thesis pub graphics ray ray pub graphics wire wire pub mirror avalon mirror of avalon s d objects repository steve hollasch hollasch kpc com swedishchef lerc nasa gov programs hollasch d ray sgi explorer modules and postscript manual etc zamenhof cs rice edu pub graphics formats various electronic documents about many object and image formats mark hall foo cs rice edu will apparently no longer be maintaining it see ftp ncsa uiuc edu rascal ics utexas edu misc mac inqueue vision d facet based modeller can output rayshade and radiance files ftp ncsa uiuc edu misc file formats graphics formats contains various image and object format descriptions many scivi tools in various directories e g sgi alpha shape alvis tar z d alpha shape visualizer sgi machines only sgi polyview polyview z interactive visualization and analysis of d geometrical structures quincey koziol koziol ncsa uiuc edu tucana noao edu iraf the iraf astronomy package ftp ipl rpi edu sigma erich spd images and haines thesis images pub images various and bit image stills and sequences kevin martin sigma ipl rpi edu ftp psc edu pub p d p d tar p d lispy scene language renderers joel welling welling seurat psc edu ftp ee lbl gov pbmplus tar z rayshade data files jef poskanzer jef ace ee lbl gov george lbl gov pub ccs lib ccs tar z ccs complex conversion system a standard software interface for image processing hanauma stanford edu pub graphics comp graphics best of comp graphics very extensive ray tracers dbw mtv qrt and more joe dellinger joe hanauma stanford edu ftp uu net graphics irit rt news back issues not complete nurbs models other graphics related material graphics jpeg jpegsrc v tar z independent jpeg group package for reading and writing jpeg files freebie engin umich edu utah raster toolkit spencer thomas thomas eecs umich edu export lcs mit edu contrib pbmplus image magick xloadimage xli xv img lots more pub r untarred mit demos gpc ncga graphics performance characterization gpc suite life pawl rpi edu pub ray kyriazis stochastic ray tracer george kyriazis kyriazis turing cs rpi edu cs utah edu pub utah raster toolkit nurbs databases jamie painter jamie cs utah edu gatekeeper dec com pub dec off tar z off models also gpc benchmark files planned but not checked randi rost rost kpc com hubcap clemson edu pub amiga incoming imagine stuff for the amiga imagine turbo silver ray tracers pub amiga ttdddlib ttdddlib pub amiga incoming imagine objects many objects glenn lewis glewis pcocd intel com pprg eece unm edu pub khoros khoros image processing package huge but great danielle argiro danielle bullwinkle unm edu expo lcs mit edu contrib pbmplus portable bitmap package poskbitmaptars bitmap collection raveling img xloadimage jef poskanzer jef well sf ca us venera isi edu pub img tar z and img tar z some image manipulation pub images rgb separation photos paul raveling raveling venera isi edu ucsd edu graphics utah rle toolkit pbmplus fbm databases mtv dbw and other ray tracers world map other stuff not updated much recently castlab engr wisc edu pub x d tar z x d pub xdart xdart mark spychalla spy castlab engr wisc edu sgi com graphics tiff tiff spec libtiff software and pics also much sgi and gl related stuff e g opengl manuals sam leffler sam sgi com supercedes okeeffe berkeley edu for the libtiff stuff surya waterloo edu graphics fbm ray tracers ftp sdsc edu sdscpub sdsc ftp brl mil brl cad information on how to get the brl cad package ray tracer images various test images a texture library has also begun here lee a butler butler brl mil cicero cs umass edu texture temp x grayscale brodatz textures from julien flack julien scs leeds ac uk karazm math uh edu pub graphics rtabs shar z wilson s rt abstracts vm pray j eric townsend jet karazm math uh edu or jet nas nasa gov ftp pitt edu users qralston images bit image archive small james ralston crawford qralston gl pitt edu ftp tc cornell edu pub vis vrend sunee waterloo edu pub raytracers vivid rend or sunee uwaterloo ca archive umich edu msdos graphics pc graphics stuff msdos graphics raytrace vivid apple apple com pub archivevol prt research att com netlib graphics spd package polyhedra polyhedra databases if you don t have ftp use the netlib automatic mail replier uucp research netlib internet netlib ornl gov send one line message send index for more info send haines from graphics to get the spd siggraph org siggraph archive site publications online bibliography project conference proceedings in various electronic formats papers panels siggraph video review information and order forms other stuff in various directories automatic mailer is archive server siggraph org send index ftp cs unc edu pub reaction diffusion greg turk s work on reaction diffusion textures x windows code siggraph avs ncsc org ftp volvis volume datasets from the boston workshop on volume visualization this site is also the international avs center terry myerson tvv ncsc org uvacs cs virginia edu pub suit demo sparc dec etc suit simple user interface toolkit finger suit uvacs cs virginia edu to get detailed instructions nexus yorku ca pub reports radiosity code tar z rad pub reports radiosity thesis ps z rad msc thesis this site will be changed to ftp yorku ca in the near future milton u washington edu ftp public veos veos virtual reality and distributed applications prototyping environment for unix veos software support veos support hitl washington edu oldpublic fly fly d visualization software demo that package is built for fly throughs from various datasets in near real time there are binaries for many platforms also much other virtual reality stuff zug csmil umich edu x xpecs d files an lcd glass shutter for amiga computers great for vr stuff sugrfx acs syr edu various stereo pair images has closed down sunsite unc edu pub academic computer science virtual reality final copy of the sugrfx acs syr edu archive that ceased to exist it contains powerglove code vr papers d images and irc research material jonathan magid jem sunsite unc edu archive cis ohio state edu pub siggraph code for siggraph course procedural modeling and rendering techniques dr david s ebert ebert cis ohio state edu lyapunov ucsd edu this machine is considered the repository for preprints and programs for nonlinear dynamics signal processing and related subjects and fractals of course matt kennel mbk inls ucsd edu cod nosc mil pub grid ps tex ascii a short survey of methods to interpolate and contour bivariate data ics uci edu honig various stereo pair images movie c animates a movie on an x display bit and mono with digital subtraction taurus cs nps navy mil pub dabro cyberware demo tar z human head data pioneer unm edu pub texture maps hans du buf s grayscale test textures aerial swatches brodatz textures synthetic swatches space planetary image repository provides access to cd roms with data images on line at a time pub info beginner info here you should start browsing colby kraybill opus pioneer unm edu cs brown edu srgp sphigs for more info on srgp sphigs mail s software distribution graphtext cs brown edu pdb pdb bnl gov has data about various organic molecules bonds between the different atoms etc atomic coordinates and a load of other stuff are contained in the ent files but the actual atomic dimemsions seem to be missing you could convert these data to pov rayshade etc biome bio ns ca pub art some renoir paintings escher s pictures etc ic ee umanitoba ca specmark sample set of images from the images from the edge cd rom images of atomic landscapes advanced semiconductors superconductors and experimental surface chemistry among others contact ruskin ee umanitoba ca explorer dgp toronto edu pub sgi clrpaint clrpaint pub sgi clrview clrview a tool that aids in visualization of gis datasets in may formats like dxf dem arc info etc ames arc nasa gov pub space cdrom images from magellan and viking missions etc get pub space index first pub spacelink has most of the spacelink service data see below e mail server available send mail to archive server ames arc nasa gov or ames archive server with subject help or send space index without the quotes peter yee yee ames arc nasa gov pubinfo jpl nasa gov images other data etc from jpl missions modem access at no parity data bits stop bit newsdesk jplpost jpl nasa gov or phone spacelink msfc nasa gov passwd guest space graphics and gif images from nasa s planetary probes and the hubble telescope main function is support for teachers you can telnet also to this site dial up access v baud bits no parity stop bit stsci edu hubble space telescope stuff images and other data read the readme first pete reppert reppert stsci edu or chris o dea odea stsci edu pit manager mit edu pub usenet news answers the land of faqs graphics and pictures directories of particular interest also available from mail server pit manager mit edu by sending a mail message containing help uucp archive avatar rt news back issues for details write kory hamzeh kory avatar avatar com europe nic funet fi pub sci papers paper bank project including pete shirley s entire thesis with pics wilson s rt abstracts pub misc cia worldmap cia world data bank comp graphics research archive india and much much more juhana kouhia jk cs tut fi dasun epfl ch radiance good for european sites but doesn t carry the add ons that are available for radiance isy liu se pub sipp sipp tar z sipp scan line z buffer and phong shading renderer jonas yngvesson jonas y isy liu se irisa fr ipsc vm pray ray tracer spd nff many non spd nff format scenes rayshade data files didier badouel badouel irisa irisa fr may have disappeared phoenix oulu fi fli raytracker animation files pc vga also big flis rayscene demos americans check wuarchive first more animations to come jari kahkonen hole phoenix oulu fi jyu fi pub graphics ray traces many ray tracers including vm pray dbw dkb mtv qrt rayshade some rt news nff files jari toivanen toivanen jyu fi garbo uwasa fi much pc stuff etc pc source contour f fortran program to contour scattered data using linear triangle based interpolation asterix inescn pt pub rtrace rtrace nffutils tar z nff utilities for rtrace medical data cat etc converters to nff autocad to nff autolisp code autocad to scn rtrace s language converter and other goodies antonio costa acc asterix inescn pt vega hut fi graphics rtn archive ray tracers mtv qrt others nff some models it was shut down months ago check under nic funet fi nfotis sun nl nluug nl pub graphics raytrace dbw microray mtv etc unix hensa ac uk misc unix ralcgm ralcgm tar z cgm viewer and converter there s an e mail server also mail to archive unix hensa ac uk with the message body send misc unix ralcgm ralcgm tar z maeglin mt luth se graphics raytracing prt others doc wilson s rt abstracts vivid ftp fu berlin de pub unix graphics rayshade inputs aq tar z is rayshade aquarium americans check princeton edu first heiko schlichting heiko math fu berlin de maggia ethz ch pub inetray inetray and sun rpc code andreas thurnherr ant ips id ethz ch osgiliath id dth dk pub amiga graphics radiance amiga port of radiance per bojsen bojsen ithil id dth dk ftp informatik uni oldenburg de pov raytracer mirrored in wuarchive has many goods for pov pub dkbtrace incoming polyray polyray raytracer pub dkbtrace incoming pv d pv d ftp uni kl de pub amiga raytracing imagine mirror of the hubcap imagine files neptune inf ethz ch xyz xyz geobench peter schorn schorn inf ethz ch iamsun unibe ch graphics graphtal a l system interpreter christoph streit streit iam unibe ch amiga physik unizh ch amiga gfx graphics stuff for the amiga computer stesis hq eso org on line access to a huge astronomical database login starcat no passwd decnet stesis it s the space telescope european coordination facility benoit pirenne bpirenne eso org phone middle east gauss technion ac il kaleida australia gondwana ecr mu oz au pub vort art ray tracer vogle wilson s ray tracing abstracts pub contrib artscenes art scenes from italy pub images haines haines thesis images graphics gems code spd nff off databases nff and off previewers plus some and bit images and lots of other stuff pub rad tar z sgi rad bernie kirby bernie ecr mu oz au munnari oz au pub graphics vort tar z vort art csg and algebraic surface ray tracer vogle pub dbw pbmplus graphics room tar z art scenes from italy david hook dgh munnari oz au marsh cs curtin edu au pub graphics bibliography facial animation pub graphics bibliography morph pub graphics bibliography ui stuff about facial animation morphing and user interfaces pub fascia fred parke s fascia program valerie hall val lillee cs curtin edu au oceania asia ccu auckland ac nz ftp mac architec vision d facet based modeller can output rayshade files many other neat things for macs paul bourke pdbourke ccu auckland ac nz for users outside nz go to wuarchive wustl edu directory mirrors architec scslwide sony co jp ftp sgi facial animation steve franks site for facial animation steve franks stevef csl sony co jp or stevef cs umr edu mail servers and graphics oriented bbses please check first with the ftp places above with archie s help don t overuse mail servers there are some troubles with wrong return addresses many of these mail servers have a command like path a valid return e mail address to get a hint for sending back to you stuff dec s ftpmail send a one line message to ftpmail decwrl dec com without a subject field and having a line containing the word help you should get back a message detailing the relevant procedures you must follow in order to get the files you want note that the reply or answer command in your mailer will not work for this message or any other mail you receive from ftpmail to send requests to ftpmail send an original mail message not a reply complaints should be sent to the ftpmail request uucp gw pa dec com address rather than to postmaster since decwrl s postmaster is not responsible for fixing ftpmail problems bitftp for bitnet sites only there s bitftp pucc send a one line help message to this address for more info red red listserv redirector is essentially a mail server the server sites that are available are location earn bitnet internet in turkey trickle trearn trickle ege edu tr in denmark trickle dktc in italy trickle imipoli in belgium trickle banufs trickle ufsia ac be in austria trickle awiwuw in germany trickle ds rus i trickle rusvm rus uni stuttgart de in israel trickle taunivm trickle vm tau ac il in netherlands trickle hearn trickle hearn nic surfnet nl in france trickle frmop trickle frmop cnusc fr in colombia trickle unalcol trickle unalcol unal edu co in taiwan trickle twnmoe trickle twnmoe edu tw you are urged to use the one that is closer to your location send a message to one of these containing the body help and you ll get more instructions lightwave d mail based file server a mail based file server for d objects bit jpeg images gif images and image maps is now online for all those with internet mail access the server is the official archive site for the lightwave d mail list and contains many pd and shareware graphics utilities for several computer platforms including amiga atari ibm and macintosh the server resides on a bbs called the graphics bbs the bbs is operational hours a day days a week at the phone number of it has upgraded its modem to a hayes ultra v bis v bis which has speeds from bps up to bps if you would like to submit objects scenes or images to the server please pack uuencode and then mail the files to the address server bobsbox rent com for information on obtaining files from the server send a mail message to the address file server graphics rent com with the following in the body of the message help dir and a help file describing how to use the server and a complete directory listing will be sent to you via mail now it includes the cyberware head and shouders in ttddd format check it out only if you can t use ftp nfotis inria graphlib pierre jancene and sabine coquillart launched the inria graphlib mail server a few months ago echo help mail inria graphlib inria fr will give you a quick summary of what inria graphlib contains and how to browse among its files echo send contents mail inria graphlib inria fr will return the extended summary as an other example echo send cgrl from misc mail inria graphlib inria fr will return the computer graphics resource listing mirrored from comp graphics bbses there are many bbses that store datafiles etc etc but a guide to these is beyond the scope of this listing and the resources of the author if you can point to me internet or mail accessible bbses that carry interesting stuff send me info studio amiga is a d modelling and ray tracing specific bbs hours meg online from jeff walkup pwappy well sf ca us the castle k v bis v v bis mnp in pacifica dang close to san francisco california usa the new user password is tao j oin base the castle g fx anim video d s i g of which i am the sig op lazerus bob lindabury operates a bbs see above the entry for the graphics bbs you can call me ray ray tracing related bbs in chicago suburbs or digital pixel sysop mark ng mcng descartes waterloo edu is based at toronto ontario canada phone storage space megs modem type k baud k zyxel v bis v mnp access fee none free system supported dos os amiga mac netmail currently no echo mail topics raytracing fractals graphics programming cad any comp graphics related from david tiberio dtiberio ic sunysb edu amiga graphics bbs in long island new york running hours at k v bis with megs on line we also subscribe to mailing lists of which originate from our bbs with more to be added soon these include lightwave imagine real d ray tracing database files include imagine d objects d renderings scalable fonts music modules sound samples demos animations utilities text databases and pending lightwave d objects the graphics alternative the graphics alternative is in el cerrito ca running hours a day at k hst v bis with mb online and a user base tga runs two nodes node is for public access and includes a free day trial subscription tga is the west coast host for pcgnet the profesional cad and graphics network supporting nodes across the continental u s alaska new zealand australia france and the uk tga s file database includes ms dos executables for pov vivid rtrace rayshade polyray and others tga also has numerous graphics utilities viewers and conversion utilities registered vivid users can also download the latest vivid aeta code from a special vivid conference from scott bethke sbathkey access digex com the intersection bbs this bbs is dedicated to supporting d animators the system is provided free of charge and is not commercialized in anyway users are given full access on the first call features usenet news internet mail fidonet echo s netmail megs online v bis v bis modem platforms of interest amiga the videotoaster macintosh ms dos unix workstations sun sgi etc atari st from alfonso hermida afanh robots gsfc nasa gov pi square bbs in maryland it supports raytracers such as pov and vivid the bbs runs off a mhz megs hard drive and cd rom now it runs on bps this will change soon topics graphics programming animation raytracing programming general from lynn falkow roxxie delphi com vertech design s graphic connection in portland oregon v v bis the bbs aside from carrying typical bbs services like message bases all topic specific and files cad and graphics related hundreds of megabytes also offers material texture files that are full color seamlessly tiling photo realistic images there are samples available to first time callers the bbs is a subscription system although callers have hours before they must subscribe and there are several subscription rates available people interested in materials can subscribe to the library in addition to a basic subscription rate and can use their purchased time to download whichever materials they wish ray tracing graphics related mailing lists imagine modeling and animation system for the amiga send subscription requests to imagine request email sp paramax com send material to imagine email sp paramax com dave wickard has substituted steve worley in the maintenance of the mailing list please note that the unisys com address is no longer valid lightwave for the amiga it s part of newtek s video toaster send subscription requests to lightwave request bobsbox rent com send material to lightwave bobsbox rent com bob lindabury toaster send subscription requests to listserv karazm math uh edu with a body of subscribe toaster list real d another modeling and animation system for the amiga to subscribe send a mail containing the body subscribe real d l your full name to listserv gu uwa edu au rayshade send subscription requests to rayshade request cs princeton edu send material to rayshade users cs princeton edu craig kolb alladin d for the amiga send subscription requests to subscribe xamiga linet org and in the body of the message write alladin d username domain radiance greg ward the author sends to registered via e mail users digests of his correspodence with them notes about fixes updates etc his address is gjward lbl gov rend send subscription requests to rend request sunee waterloo edu send material to rend sunee waterloo edu pov ray dkb raytracers to subscribe send a mail containing the body subscribe dkb l your full name to listserv trearn bitnet send material to dkb l trearn bitnet mailing list for massively parallel rendering send subscription requests to mp render request icase edu send material to mp render icase edu d graphics editors a public domain free and shareware systems vision d mac based program written by paul d bourke pdbourke ccu aukland ac nz the program can be used to generate models directly in the rayshade and radiance file formats polygons only it s shareware and listed on the ftp list brl a solid modeling system for most environments including sgi and x it has csg and nurbs plus support for non manifold geometry whatever it is you can get it free via ftp by signing and returning the relevant license found on ftp brl mil uses ray tracing for engineering analyses contact ms carla moyer tel fax cad dist brl mil e mail snail mail brl cad distribution surviac aberdeen satellite office old philadelphia road suite aberdeen md usa irit a constructive solid geometry csg modeling program for pc and x includes freeform surface support free see ftp list for where to find it surfmodel a solid modeling program for pc written in turbo pascal by ken van camp available from simtel pd msdos srfmodl directory noodles from cmu namely fritz printz and levent gursoz elg styx edrc cmu edu it s based on non manifold topology ask them for more info i don t know if they give it away xyz xyz is an interactive d editor builder written by dale p stocker to create objects for the surfacemodel automove and dkb raytracer packages xyz is free and can be found for example in simtel as msdos surfmodl xyz zip dos only dmod it s an msdos program check at barnacle erc clarkson edu pub msdos graphics dmod undocumented file format dmod is c by micah silverman pierrepoint ave postdam new york tel northcad shareware msdos cad ncad d zip in simtel undocumented file format vertex amiga shareware send us check or money order to the art machine nickolas sterling heights mi usa in addition to the now standard file formats including lightwave imagine sculpt turbo silver geo and wavefront this release offers d professional and rayshade support rayshade is supported only by the primitive triangle but you can easily include this output in your rayshade scripts the latest demo version is available on fred fish for more information contact the author alex deburie at ad s sycom mi org phone icoons amiga it s a spline based object modeller icoons interactive coons path editor in amiga physik unizh ch gfx d icoons lzh it s free under the gnu licence and requires fpu the program has a look feel which is a cross between journeyman and imagine and it generates objects in ttddd format it is possible to load journeyman objects into icoons so the program can be used to convert jman objects to imagine format author helge e rasmussen her compel dk phone fax it s also on fred fish disk series n nfotis protocad d ver from trius shareware it s at wsmr simtel army mil and oak oakland edu as pcad d zip for pcs it has this menu layout file file handling load save import xport draw draw d objects line circle box d draw d objects mesh sphere block edit editing features copy move surface modify objects revolve xtrude sweep image image zooming features update window half option global defaults grid toggles axis plot print drawing picture go image render shade objects frame lighting tune layer layer options select active layer set colors sculptura runs under windows and outputs pov files a demo can be found on wuarchive wustl edu in mirrors win demo demo d zip author michael gibson gibsonm stein u washington edu b commercial systems alpha a spline based modeling program written in university of utah features splines up to trimmed nurbs support for boolean operations sweeps bending warping flattening etc groups of objects and transformations extensible object types applications include nc machining animation utilities dimensioning fem analysis etc rendering subsystem with support for animations support the following platforms hp and s x r hp ux sgi d or pi machines x r and gl irix sun sparcstation x r sunos licensing and distribution is handled by egs glenn mcminn president engineering geometry systems east south temple suite salt lake city ut mcminn cs utah edu educational pricing the charge is per platform you may run the system on as many different workstations of that type as you wish for each platform there is also a licensing fee for portable standard lisp psl which is bundled with the system you need to obtain an additional license from the university of utah for psl from the following address professor robert kessler computer science department university of utah salt lake city utah egs can handle the licensing of psl for u s institutions for a usd nominal fee nfotis vertigo they have an educational institution program the package is used in the industrial design architectural scientific visualization educational broadcast imaging and post production fields they ll quoting from a letter sent to me nfotis donate fully configured vertigo d graphics software worth over usd per package to qualified educational institutions for licencing on any number of silicon graphics personal iris or power series workstations if you use an iris indigo station we will also licence our vertigo revolution software worth usd if you are interested in participating in this program please send a letter by mail or fax on your institution s letterhead briefly outlining your potential uses for vertigo together with the following information unix version model and number of sgi systems peripheral devices third party software participants will be asked to contribute usd per institution to cover costs of the manual administration and shipping we recommend that vertigo users subscribe to our technical support services for an annual fee you will receive technical assistance on our support hotline bug fixes software upgrades and manual updates for educational institution we will waive the administration fee if support is purchased the annual support fee is plus the following cost for additional machines number of machines additional cost per machine there s also a day training program nfotis contact vertigo technology inc suite west georgia st vancouver bc canada v e y phone fax does anyone know of such offers from tdi alias softimage wavefront etc this would be a very interesting part nfotis padl basically it s a solid modeling kernel in top of which you build your application s available by license from cornell programmable automation cornell university engineering and theory center ithaca ny license fees are very low for educational institutions and gov t agencies internal commercial licenses and re dissemination licenses are available for an information packet write to the above address or send your address to marisa cpa tn cornell edu richard marisa acis from spatial technology it s a solid modelling kernel callable from c heard that many universities got free copies from the company the person to contact regarding acis in academic institutions is scott owens e mail sdo spatial com and their address is spatial technology inc th st bldg a boulder co phone fax movie byu cquel byu basically in my understanding this is a fem pre and post proccessor system it s fairly old today but it still serves some people in mech eng depts now it s superseded from cquel byu pronounced sequel that s a complete modelling animation and visualization package runs in the usual workstation environments sun dec hp sgi ibm rs and others you can get a demo version days trial period either by sending usd in their address or a blank tape it costs for a full run time licence contact engineering computer graphics lab clyde building brigham young univ provo ut phone e mail cquel byu edu twixt soon to add stuff about it if i get a reply to my fax voxblast it s a volume renderer marketed by vaytek inc fairfield iowa phone running on pcs with fpu at least call vaytek for more info voxelbox a d volume renderer for windows features include direct ray traced volume rendering color and alpha mapping gradient lighting animation reflections and shadows runs on a pc or higher with at least an bit video card svga is fine under windows x it costs contact jaguar software inc main st suite b winchester ma jwp world std com john w poduska scene description languages nff neutral file format by eric haines very simple there are some procedural database generators in the spd package and many objects floating in various ftp sites there s also a previewer written in hp starbase from e haines also there s one written in vogle so you can use any of the devices vogle can output on check in sites carrying vogle like gondwana ecr mu oz au off object file format from dec s randy rost rost kpc com the object archive server seems to be mothballed in a future version i ll remove the ref to it nfotis available also through their mail server to obtain help about using this service send a message with a subject line containing only the word help and a null message body to object archive server decwrl dec com for ftp places to get it see in the relevant place there s an off previewer for sgi d machines called off preview in godzilla cgl rmit oz au there are previewers for xview and sunview also on gondwana tddd it s a library of d objects with translators to from off nff rayshade imagine or vort objects edited copy of the announcement follows from raytracing news v new library of d objects available via ftp by steve worley worley cup portal com i have assembled a set of over d objects in a binary format called tddd these objects range from human figures to airplanes from semi trucks to lampposts these objects are all freely distributable and most have readmes that describe them in order to convert these objects to a human readable format a file with the specification of tddd is included in the directory with the objects there is also a shareware system called ttdddlib officially on hubcap clemson edu that will convert ala pbm to from various object formats imagine ttddd extension of tddd off nff rayshade or vort source included for amiga unix as executables for the amiga also outputs framemaker mif files and isometric views in postscript p d from pittsburgh supercomputing center the p d uses lisp with slight extensions to store three dimensional models a simple lisp interpreter is included with the p d release so there is no need to have access to any vendor s lisp to run this software the mouse driven user interfaces for motif open look and silicon graphics gl and the drawp d subroutine library for generating p d without ever looking at the underlying lisp the p d software currently supports nine renderers they are painter painter s algorithm dore silicon graphics inc gl language generic phigs sun phigs dec phigs rayshade art ray tracer from vort package and pixar renderman the code is available via anonymous ftp from the machines ftp psc edu directory pub p d and nic funet fi directory pub graphics programs p d renderman pixar s renderman is not free call pixar for details solids description formats a eec s esprit project cad i cad interfaces has developed a neutral file format for transfer of cad data curves surfaces and solid models between cad systems and from cad to caa computer aided analysis an cam computer aided manufacturing b iges v now tries to define a standard to tranfer solid models brep and csg the current standard number is ansi y m for documentation you might want to contact nancy flower at ncga technical services and standards ext and the cost is this standard is not available in electronic format c pdes step this slowly emerging standard tries to encompass not only the geometrical information but also for things like fem etc the main bodies besides this standard are nist and darpa you can get more information about pdes by sending mail to nptserver cme nist gov and putting the line send index in the body not the subject area of the message the people at rutherford appleton lab are also working on step tools they have an express compiler and an exchange file parser both available in source form and for free for research purposes soon they will also have an express based database system for the tools contact mike mead phone fax x e mail mm inf rl ac uk or mcsun uknet rlinf mm or mm inf rl ac uk nsfnet relay ac uk end of part of the resource listing nick nikolaos fotis national technical univ of athens greece home esperidon st internet nfotis theseas ntua gr halandri gr uucp mcsun ariadne theseas nfotis athens greece fax
comp.graphics	apr computer graphics resource listing weekly part archive name graphics resources list part last modified computer graphics resource listing weekly posting part last change april plotting packages gnuplot it is one of the best and d plotting packages with online help it s a command line driven interactive function plotting utility for unix msdos amiga archimedes and vms platforms at least freely distributed it supports many terminals plotters and printers and is easily extensible to include new devices it was posted to comp sources misc in version plus patches you can practically find it everywhere use archie to find a site near you the comp graphics gnuplot newsgroup is devoted to discussion of gnuplot xvgr and xmgr ace gr xmgr is an xy plotting tool for unix workstations using x or openwindows there is an xview version called xvgr for suns collectively these tools are known as ace gr compiling xmgr requires the motif toolkit version and x r xmgr will not compile under x r motif x check at ftp ccalmr ogi edu in ccalmr pub acegr xmgr tar z motif version ccalmr pub acegr xvgr tar z xview version comments suggestions bug reports to paul j turner pturner amb ese ogi edu if mail fails try pturner ese ogi edu due to time constraints replies will be few and far between robot release d and limited d based on xview written in c fortran so you need a fortran compiler or the f c translator mainly tested on sun less on decstations check at ftp astro psu edu pub astrod vg plotting library this is a library of fortran callable routines at sunspot ceee nist gov xgobi it s being developed at bellcore and its speciality are multidimensional data sets analysis and exploration you can call it from the s language also and it works as an x client using the athena widget set or with an ascii terminal it s distributed free of charge from statlib at cmu to get it via e mail send email to statlib temper stat cmu edu and in the body area of the message put the line send xgobi from general if you want to pick it via ftp connect to lib stat cmu edu log in as statlib and use your e mail address as your password then type cd general mget xgobi warning it s about mb sources large postscript manual read the relevant readme to decide whether you need it or not pgplot runs on vax vms and supposedly on unix it s a set of fortran routines freely available though copyrighted and requiring a nominal fee of or so that includes contour plots and support for various devices including ps contact tjp deimos caltech edu ggraph host shorty cs wisc edu pub ggraph tar z unknown more details epigraph for pcs call dvj lab phys lgu spb su vladimir j dmitriev for details you can get the program demo or and play version if sent to budapest posta fiok hungary ph fax budapest ph multiplot xln for amigas shareware usd uk or aust advanced d package that has a big list of features contact dr alan baxter agb mbuc bio cam ac uk cambridge university department of pathology tennis court road cambridge cb qp uk athena plotter widget set this version v is based on gregory bond s version v beta added some stuff for scientific graphs i e log axes free scalable axes xy lineplots and some more and re added plotter callbacks from v e g to request the current pointer position or to cut off a rectangle from the plotting area for zooming in version v has a log of bugs fixed and a log of improvements against v beta additionally i did some other changes extensions besides origin and frame lines for axes subgrid lines on subtic positions line plots in different line types lines points lines points impulses lines impulses steps bars line styles solid dotted dashed dot dashed and marker types for data points legend at the right or left hand side of the plot optional drawing to a pixmap instead of a window layout callback for aligning axis positions when using multiple plotters in one application available at export lcs mit edu directory contrib plotter sciplot sciplot is a scientific d plotting and manipulation program for the next requires nextstep and it s shareware features ascii import and export eps export copy cut paste with data buffer free number of data points data buffer and document window selective open and save plotting in many styles automatic legend subviews linear and logarithmic axes two different axes text and graphic color support zoom normalizing and moving axis conversions free hand data manipulations cut edit move etc data editor sorting of data absolute relative and free defined error bars calculating with buffers background subtractions linear shirley tougaard bezier integration and relative integration fitting of one or more free defined functions linear regression calculations sin cos log etc function generator spline interpolation least square smooth and fft smooth differentiation fft esca calculations and database and something more you can find it on ftp cs tu berlin de pub next science sciplot tar z author michael wesemann scillerstr berlin germany mike fiasko rz berlin mpg de plplot plplot is a scientific plotting package for many systems small micro and large super alike despite its small size and quickness it has enough power to satisfy most users including standard x y plots semilog plots log log plots contour plots d plots mesh plots bar charts and pie charts multiple graphs of the same or different sizes may be placed on a single page with multiple lines in each graph different line styles widths and colors are supported a virtually infinite number of distinct area fill patterns may be used there are almost characters in the extended character set this includes four different fonts the greek alphabet and a host of mathematical musical and other symbols the fonts can be scaled to any size for various effects many different output device drivers are available system dependent including a portable metafile format and renderer freely available but copyrighted via anonymous ftp on hagar ph utexas edu directory pub plplot at present v plplot is known to work on the following systems unix sunos a ix hp ux unicos dg ux ultrix other platforms vms amiga exec ms dos os next authors many the main supporters are maurice lebrun mjl fusion ph utexas edu plplot kernel and the metafile xterm xwindow tektronix and amiga drivers geoff furnish furnish fusion ph utexas edu ms dos and os drivers tony richardson amr egr duke edu plplot on the next supermongo d plotting package at cmu filename re tmp sm tar z probably under the ftp cmu edu or andrew cmu edu machines gle gle is a high quality graphics package for scientists it runs on a variety of platforms pcs vaxes and unix with drivers for xwindows regis tek pc graphics cards vt s hp plotters postscript printers epson compatible printers and laserjet paintjet printers it provides latex quality fonts as well as full support for postscript fonts the graphing module provides full control over all features of graphs the graphics primitives include user defined subroutines for complex pictures and diagrams accompanying utilities include surface for hidden line surface plotting contour for contour plots manip for manipulation of columnar data files and fitls for fitting arbitrary equations to data available via anon ftp at these places pc gle simtel wuarchive wustl edu and other mirrors msdos graphics gle unix gle zephyr grace cri nz pub gle unix vms gle zephyr grace cri nz pub gle vms mailing list glelist send a message to listserver tbone biol scarolina edu with a message boyd containing sub glelist your name maintainer dean pentcheff dean tbone biol scarolina edu image analysis software image processing and display pc and mac based tools multi platform software imdisp imdisp written at jpl and other nasa sites can do simple display enhancing smoothing and so on works with the fits and vicar pds data formats of nasa can read tiff images if you know their dimensions pc and macs labview labview is used as a framework for image processing tools it provides a graphical programming environment using block diagram sketch is the program with graphical elements representing the programming elements hundreds of functions are already available and are connected using a wiring tool to create the block diagram program functions that the block diagrams represent include digital signal processing and filtering numerical analysis statistics etc the tool allows any virtual instrument vi a software file that looks and acts like a real laboratory instrument to be used as a part of any other virtual instrument national instruments markets plug in digital signal processing dsp boards for macintoshs and pc compatables that allow real time acquisition and analysis at a personal computer new software tools for dsp are allowing engineers to harness the power of this technology the tools range from low level debugging software to high level block diagram development software there are three levels of dsp programming associated with the nb dsp board and labview use of the nb dsp analysis library ffts power spectra filters routines callable from think c and macintosh programers workshop mpw c that execute on the nb dsp board there is an analysis virtual interface library of ready to use vis optimized for the nb dsp use of the national instruments developers toolkit that includes an optimizing c compiler an assembler and a linker for low level programming of the dsp hardware this approach offers the highest level of performance but is the must difficult in terms of ease of use use of the national instruments interface kit software package which has utility functions for memory management data communications and downloading code to the nb dsp board this is the easiest route for the development of custom code ultimage concept vi concept vi by graftek france is a family of image processing virtual instruments vis that give labview described above users high end tools for designing integrating and monitoring imaging control systems a vi is a software file that looks and acts like a real laboratory instrument typical applications for concept vi include thermography surveillance machine vision production testing biomedical imaging electronic microscopy and remote sensing ultimage concept vi addresses applications which require further qualitative and quantitative analysis it includes a complete set of functions for image enhancement histogram equalization spatial and frequency filtering isolation of features thresholding mathematical morphology analysis density measurement object counting sizing and characterization the program loads images with a minimum resolution of by a pixel depth of or bits and one image plane standard input and output formats include pict tiff satie and aipd other formats can be imported image enhancement features include lookup table transformations spatial linear and non linear filters frequency filtering arithmetic and logic operations and geometric transformations among others morphological transformations include erosion dilation opening closing hole removal object separation and extraction of skeletons among others quantitative analysis provides for objects detection measurement and morphological distribution measures include area perimeter center of gravity moment of inertia orientation length of relevant chords and shape factors and equivalence measures are saved in ascii format the program also provides for macro scripting and integration of custom modules a d view command plots a perspective data graph where image intensity is depicted as mountains or valleys in the plot the histogram tool can be plotted with either a linear or logarithmic scale the twenty eight arithmetic and logical operations provide for masking and averaging sections of images noise removal making comparisons etc there are spatial filters that alter pixel intensities based on local intensity these include high pass filters for contrast and outlines the frequency data resulting from fft analysis can be displayed as either the real imaginary components or the phase magnitude data the morphological transformations are useful for data sharpening and defining objects or for removing artifacts the transformations include thresholding eroding dilating and even hole filling the program s quantitative analysis measurements include area perimeter center of mass object counts and angle between points gtfs inc bennett valley road c santa rosa ca iplab spectrum iplab spectrum supports image processing and analysis but lacks the morphology and quantitative analysis features provided by graftek franceus ultimage concept vi using scripting tools the user tells the system the operations to be performed the problem is that far too many basic operations require manual intervention the tool supports ffts arithmetic operations for pixel alteration and a movie command for cycling through windows macintosh based tools ncsa image ncsa paledit and more ncsa provides a whole suite of public domain visualization tools for the macintosh primarily aimed at researchers wanting to visualize results from numerical modelling calculations these applications documentation and source code are available for anonymous ftp from ftp ncsa uiuc edu commercial versions of the ncsa programs have been developed by spyglass spyglass inc devonshire drive champaign il fax nih image available at alw nih gov or preferably zippy nimh nih gov directory pub image it has painting and image manipulation tools a macro language tools for measuring areas distances and angles and for counting things using a frame grabber card it can record sequences of images to be played back as a movie it can invoke user defined convolution matrix filters such as gaussian it can import raw data in tab delimited ascii or as or byte quantities it also does histograms and even d plots it is limited to bits pixel though the bits map into a color lookup table it runs on any mac that has a color screen and a fpu or get the nonfpu version from zippy nimh nih gov photomac data translation inc locke dr marlboro ma photopress blue solutions marigold place thousand oaks ca pixeltools and tcl image complete family of pixeltools hardware accelerator and applications software for scientific image processing and analysis video rate capture display processing and analysis of high resolution monochromatic and color images includes c source code tcl image software package for scientific quantitative image processing and analysis it provides a complete language for the capture enhancement and extraction of quantitative information from gray scale images tcl image has over functions for image processing and contains the other elements needed in a full programming language for algorithm development variables and control structures it is easily extensible through script or indirect command files these script files are simply text files that contain tcl image commands they are executed as normal commands and include the ability to pass parameters the direct capture of video images is supported via popular frame grabber boards tcl image comes with the i view utility that provides conversion between common image file types such as pict and tiff perceptics pellissippi parkway knoxville tn satellite image workshop it comes with a number of satellite pictures raw data and does all sorts of image enhancing on it you ll need at least a mac ii with co processor a color display and a large harddisk the program doesn t run under system x ate v in the documentation the contact address is given as liz smith jet propulsion laboratory ms oak grove dr pasadena ca visualization workbench an electronic imaging software system that performs interactive image analysis and scientific d and d plotting paragon imagine lincoln st lowell ma adobe photoshop the tool supports rtrue colors with bit images or levels of grey scale once an image has been imported it can be rre toucheds with various editing tools typical of those used in macintosh based rpaints applications these include an eraser pencil brush and air brush advanced rpastes tools that control the interaction between a pasted selection and the receiving site have also been incorporated for example all red pixels in a selection can easily be preventing from being pasted photoshop has transparencies ranging from to allowing you to create ghost overlays rphoto editings tools include control of the brightness and contrast color balancing hue saturation modification and spectrum equalization images can be subjected to various signal processing algorithms to smooth or sharpen the image blur edges or locate edges image scaling is also supported for storage savings the images can be compressed using standard algorithms including externally supplied compression such as jpeg availlable from storm technologies the latest version of adobe photoshop supports the import of numerous image formats including epsf epsf tiff pict resource amiga iff ilbm compuserve gif macpaint pixar pixelpaint scitex ct tga and thunderscan adobe systems inc charlestown road po box mountain view ca colorstudio and imagestudio colorstudio is an image editing and paint package from letraset that has more features than adobe photoshop but is decidedly more complex and therefore more difficult to use several steps are often required to accomplish that which can be done in a single step using photoshop the application requires a great deal of available disk space as one can easily end up with images in the mb range the program provides a variety of powerful selection tools including the auto selection tool which lets the user choose image areas on the basis of color close hues color range and mask imagestudio don t know letraset usa eisenhower drive paramus nj dapple systems high resolution image analysis software provides processing tools to work with multiple images enhance and edit and measure a variety of global or feature parameters and interpret the data dapple systems w olive ave sunnyvale ca digital darkroom the latest release of digital darkroom has five new selection and editing tools for enhancing images one such feature allows the user to select part of an image simply by painting it a new polyline selection tool creates a selection tool for single pixel wide selections a brush lets the operator paint with a selected portion of the image note that this is not a true color image enhancement tool this tool should be used when the user intends to operate in grey scale images only it should be noted that digital darkroom is not as powerful as either adobe photoshop or colorstudio silicon beach software carroll ctr rd suite j san diego ca dimple it is compatible with system and system requires mac lc or ii series with colours with a recommended min of mb of ram it has the capability of reading erdas files functions include image enhancement d and contour plots image statistics supervised and unsupervised classification pca and other image transformations there is also a means image operation language or iol by which you can write your own transformations there is no image rectification however dimple is compatable with mapii the latest version is and it is in the beta stage of testing dimple was initially developed as a teaching tool and it is very good for this purpose dimple runs on a colour macintosh it is a product still in its development phase i e it doesn t have all the inbuilt features of other packages but is coming along nicely it has its own inbuilt language for writing programs for processing an image defining convolution filters etc dimple is a full mac application with pull down menus etc it is unprotected software process software solutions po box wollongong new south wales australia phone fax enhance enhance has a rrulers tool that supports measurements and additionally provides angle data the tool has over mathematical filter variations laplacian medium noise filter etc files can be saved as either tiff pict epsf or text however epsf files can t be imported microfrontier hickman road des moines ia image analyst an image processing product for users who need to extract quantitative data from video images image analyst lets users configure sophisticated image processing and measurement routines without the necessity of knowing a programming language it is designed for such tasks at computing number and size of cells in images projected by video cameras attached to microscopes or enhancing and measuring distances in radiographs image analyst provides users with an array of field proven video analysis techniques that enable them to easily assemble a sequence of instructions to enhance feature appearance count objects determine density shape size position or movement perform object feature extraction and conduct textural analysis automatically image analyst works with either a framegrabber board and any standard video camera or a disk stored image within minutes without the need for programming the image analyst user can set up a process to identify and analyze any element of a image measurements and statistics can be automatically or semi automatically generated from tiff or pict files or from captured video tape images image analyst recognizes items in images based on their size shape and position the tool provides direct support for the data translation and scion frame grabbers a menu command allows for image capture from a vcr video camera or other ntsc or pal devices there are types of files the image itself and the related sequence file that holds the processing measurements and analysis that the user defines automated sequences are set up in regions of interest roi represented by movable sizable boxes atop the image inside a roi the program can find the distance between two edges the area of a shape the thickness of a wall etc image analyst finds the center edge and other positions automatically the application also provides tools so that the user can work interactively to find the edge of object it also supports histograms and a color look up table clut tool automatix inc middlesex turnpike billerica ma iplab signal analytics corp maple ave e vienna va fax menu driven image processing software that supports bit color or pseudocolor grayscale image display and manipulation map ii among the mac gis systems map ii distributed by john wiley has integrated image analysis image from stanford try anonymous ftp from sumex aim stanford edu it has pd source for image v and ready to run code for a mac under image v windows dos pc based tools ccd richard berry s ccd imaging book for willamon bell contains optional disks with image manipulating software source code is included erdas erdas will do all of the things you want rectification classification transformations canned user defined overlays filters contrast enhancement etc i was using it on my thesis then changed the topic a bit that work became secondary erdas inc buford highway suite atlanta ga fax rsvga i have been getting up to speed on a program called rsvga available from eidetic digital image ltd in british columbia its for ibm pc s or clones cheap about and does all the stuff erdas does but is not as fast or as powerful though i have had only limited experience with erdas i have used rsvga with of landsat bands and it is a good starter program except for the obtuse manual imagine it s a bit package i suppose for pcs called imagine or image the program does a modest amount of image processing add subtract multiply divide display and plot an x or y cut across the image it can also display a number of images simultaneously the company is compuscope in santa barbara ca pc vista it was announced in the august edition of pasp it is known to be available from mike richmond whose email addresses have been richmond bllac berkeley edu richmond bkyast berkeley edu and his s mail address is michael richmond astronomy department campbell hall berkeley ca the latest version of pc vista version includes not only the source code and help files but also a complete set of executable programs and a number of sample fits images if you do wish to use the source code you will need microsoft c version or later other compilers may work but will require substantial modifications to receive the documentation and nine double density k floppies or three quad density inch floppies m with everything on them just send a request for pc vista together with your name and a us mail address to office of technology licensing shattuck ave suite berkeley ca include a check traveller s checks are fine or purchase order for in u s dollars if your address is inside the continental u s or otherwise made out to regents of the university of california to cover duplication and mailing costs software tools it s a set of software tools put out by canyon state systems and software they are not free but rather cheap at about i heard it will handle most all of the formats used by frame grabber software mirage it s image processing software written by jim gunn at the astrophysics dept at princeton it will run on a pc among other platforms it is a forth based system i e a forth language with many image processing displaying functions built in data translation source book the data translation company in massachusetts publishes a free book containing vendors of data analysis hardware and software which is compatible with data translation and other frame grabbers surely you can find much more pc related stuff in it maxen a couple of canadians have written a program named maxen which does maximum entropy image deconvolution their company is named digital signal processing software or something like that and the software is mentioned in an article in astronomy magazine either jan or feb an article on ccd s vs film jandel scientific java another software package java is put out by jandel scientific jandel scientific koch road corte madera ca microbrian runs on an ms dos platform and uses a bit graphics card vista or an about to be released version will support a number of super vga cards its a full blown remote sensed data processing system it is menu driven character based screen but is does not use a windowed user interface its is hardware protected with a dongle mbrian micro barrier reef image anaysis system it was developed by csiro commonwealth scientific industrial organization and is marketed supported by mpa australia lusher road croydon victoria tel fax there are educational and commercial prices but be prepared to set aside a k for the first educational licence subsequent ones come cheaper they need to it has installed sites worldwide it is widely used at anu microimage the remote sensing lab here at dartmouth currently uses terra mar s microimage on pcs with some fancy display hardware terra mar resource information services inc landings drive mountain view ca fax unix based tools iraf image reduction and analysis facility developed in the national optical astronomy observatory kitt peak az it is free you can ftp it from tucana noao edu and complement it with stsdas from stsci edu email to iraf noao edu for more details apparently this is one of the de facto standards in the astronomical image community they issue a newsletter also they seem to support very well their users works with vms also last i heard and practically has its own shell on top of the vms unix shells it s suggested that you get a copy of saoimage for display under x windows very flexible extendable tons literally linear feet of documentation for the general user skilled user and programmer alv a sun specific image toolkit version posted to comp sources sun on dec also available via email to alv users request cs bris ac uk aips astronomical image processing system contact aipsmail nrao edu also see the usenet newsgroups alt sci astro aips and sci astro fits built by nrao national radio astronomy observatory hq in charlottesville va sites in nm az wv software distributed by track exabyte dat or non anonymous internet ftp documentation postscript mostly available via anonymous ftp to baboon cv nrao edu directory pub aips and pub aips text publ installation requires building the system and thus a fortran and c compiler this package can read and write fits data see sci astro fits and is primarily for reduction analysis and image enhancement of radio astronomy data from radio telescopes particularly the very large array vla a synthesis instrument it consists of almost programs that do everything from copying data to sophisticated deconvolution e g via maximum entropy there is an x based image tool xas and a tek compatible xterm based graphics tool built into aips the xas tool is modelled after the hardware functionality of the international imaging systems model display unit and can do image arithmetic etc the code is mostly fortran with some system c language modules and is available for suns ibm rs dec ultrix convex cray unicos and alliant with support planned for hp xx solaris and maybe sgi there is currently a project aips underway to rewrite the algorithmic functionality of aips in a modern setting using c and an object oriented approach whereas aips is proprietary code licensed for free to non profit institutions owner by nrao and the nsf aips will be in the public domain at some level as it is an international effort with contributions from the us canada england the netherlands india and australia to name a few laboimage version is out for x it s written in c and currently runs on sun xxx sun xxx os and under sunview the expert system for image segmentation is written in allegro common lisp it was used on the following domains computer science image analysis medicine biology physics it is distributed free of charge source code available via anonymous ftp at ftp ads com in pub vision list archive shareware laboimage contact prof thierry pun computer vision group computing science center u geneva rue du lac ch geneva switzerland phone fax e mail pun cui unige ch or pun cgeuge bitnet figaro it was originally made for vms and can be obtained from keith shortridge in australia ks aaoepp aao gov au and for unix from sam southard at caltech sns deimos caltech edu it s about mbytes on a sun khoros moved to the scientific visualization category below vista the real thing is available via anonymous ftp from lowell edu email to vista lowell edu for more details total size less than mbytes disimp device independent software for image processing is a powerful system providing both user friendliness and high functionality in interactive times feature description disimp incorporates a rich library of image processing utilities and spatial data options all functions can be easily accessed via the disimp executive this menu is modular in design and groups image processes by their function such a logical structure means that complicated processes are simply a progression through a series of modules processes include image rectification classification unsupervised and supervised intensity transformations three dimensional display and principal component analysis disimp also supports the more simple and effective enhancement techniques of filtering band subtraction and ratioing host configuration requirements running on unix workstations disimp is capable of processing the more computational intensive techniques in interactive processing times disimp is available in both runtime and programmer s environments using the programmers environment utilities can be developed for specific applications programs graphics are governed by an icon based display panel which allows quick enhancments of a displayed image manipulations of look up tables colour stretches changes to histograms zooming and panning can be interactively driven through this control a range of geographic projections enables disimp to integrate data of image graphic and textual types images can be rectified by a number of coordinate systems providing the true geographic knowledge essential for ground truthing overlays of grids text and vector data can be added to further enhance referenced imagery the system is a flexible package allowing users of various skill levels to determine their own working environment including the amount of help required disimp comes fully configured with no optional extras the purchase price includes all functionality required for professional processing of remote sensed data for further information please contact the business manager clough engineering group systems division chapel street south yarra australia telephone fax global imaging software we use global imaging software to process avhrr data from the dish to the final display select a chunk of five band data from a pass automatic navigation calibrate it to albedo and temp convert that to byte register it to predesigned window all relatively automatically and carefree it has no classification routines to speak of but it isn t that difficult to write your own with their programmer s module very small operation one designs one codes one sells been around for a number of years sold to weather service and navy runs on hp with hp ux supports bit display hips human information processing laboratory s image processing system michael landy co wrote and sell a general purpose package for image processing which has been used for basically all the usual image processing applications robotics medical satellite engineering oil exploration etc it is called hips and deals with sequences of multiband images in the same way it deals with single images it has been growing since we first wrote it both by additions from us as well as a huge user contributed library feature description hips is a set of image processing modules which together provide a powerful suite of tools for those interested in research system development and teaching it handles sequences of images movies in precisely the same manner as single frames programs and subroutines have been developed for simple image transformations filtering convolution fourier and other transform processing edge detection and line drawing manipulation digital image compression and transmission methods noise generation and image statistics computation over such image transformation programs have been developed as a result almost any image processing task can be performed quickly and conveniently additionally hips allows users to easily integrate their own custom routines new users become effective using hips on their first day hips features images that are self documenting each image stored in the system contains a history of the transformations that have been applied to that image hips includes a small set of subroutines which primarily deals with a standardized image sequence header and a large library of image transformation tools in the form of unix filters it comes complete with source code on line manual pages and on line documentation host configuration requirements originally developed at new york university hips now represents one of the most extensive and flexible vision and image processing environments currently available it runs under the unix operating system it is modular and flexible provides automatic documentation of its actions and is almost entirely independent of special equipment hips is now in use on a variety of computers including vax and microvax sun apollo masscomp ncr tower iris ibm at etc for image display and input drivers are supplied for the grinnell and adage ikonas image processors and the sun sun sun and sun i consoles we also supply user contributed drivers for a number of other framestores and windowing packages sun gfx sun console matrox vip iti ip lexidata macintosh ii x windowing system and iris the hipsaddon package includes an interface for the crs it is a simple matter to interface hips with other frame stores and we can put interested users in touch with users who have interfaced hips with the arlunya and datacube max video hips can be easily adapted for other image display devices because of hips is machine independent availability hips has proven itself a highly flexible system both as an interactive research tool and for more production oriented tasks it is both easy to use and quickly adapted and extended to new uses hips is supplied on magnetic tape in unix tar format either reel to reel or sun cartridge and comes with source code libraries a library of convolu tion masks and on line documentation and manual pages michael landy sharpimage software p o box prince street station new york ny voice fax msl cns nyu edu mira please don t confuse that with the thalmanns animation system from montreal these are altogether different beasts nfotis mira stands for microcomputer image reduction and analysis mira gives workstation level performance on dos computers using svga cards in color modes up to x mira contains a very handsome functional gui which is mouse and keystroke operated mira reads writes tiff and fits formats native formats of a number of ccd cameras and uncompressed binary images in byte short integer and byte real pixel format in or dimensions the result of an image processing operation can be short integer or real pixels or the same as that of the input image mira does the operation using short or floating point arithmetic to maintain the precision and accuracy of the pixel format over functions are hand coded in assembly language for maximum speed on the intel hardware the entire graphical interface is also written in assembly language to maximize the speed of windowing operations windows for d image and d image data display and analysis have dedicated cursors which read position and value value in real time as you move the mouse there are also smooth real time contrast and brightness stretch and panning of a magnified portion of the displayed image s all operated by the mouse a wide selection of grayscale pseudocolor and random palettes is provided and other palettes can be generated supported functions include such niceties as the following o image image interpolation o image constant o unary operations abs value polynomial of pixel value chs x log byteswap clip values at upper lower limits short real or real short o combine images by mean median mode or sum of pixel values with or without autoscaling to mean median or mode of an image section o convolutions filters laplacian sobel edge operator directional gradient line gaussian elliptical and rectangular equal weight filters unsharp masking median filters user defined filter kernel ellipse rectangle line gradient gaussian and user defined filters can be rotated to any specified angle o ccd data reduction flat fielding dark subtraction column over underscan bias removal remove bad pixels and column defects normalize to region target mean median or modal value o create subimage mosaic m x n d or d images to get larger image collapse d image into d image o plot d section or collapsed section of d image plot histogram of region of an image o review change image information header data rename keywords plot keyword values for a set of images o luminance photometry elliptical or circular aperture photometry brightness profile isophotal photometry between set of upper lower luminances area and luminance inside traced polygon interactive background fitting and removal from part or all of image fit elliptical aperture shape to image isophotes o interactive with d image contrast brightness x y or diagonal plot of pixel values distance between two points compute region stats centroid pan to x y location or image center zoom to times change cursor to rectangle crosshair full image crosshair or off and adjust cursor size on image select linear log or gamma transfer function or histogram equalization o interactive or specified image offset computation and re sampling for registration o interactive with d image zoom in x y or both in steps of or times current re center plot or enlarge a framed area plot buffers can be cycled through interactive data analysis polynomial fitting point deletion undelete change value point weighting linear and quadratic loess and binomial smoothing revert to unit point weights or original data buffer substitute results into data buffer for pass back to calling function dump data buffer overlays and error bars to file or printer change to user specified coordinate system o tricolor image combination and display hardcopy halftone printout to hp pcl compatible printers laserjet deskjet etc o documentation is over pages in custom vinyl binder cost usd copy available from axiom research inc box tucson az phone fax international marketing rep saguaro scientific corporation tucson arizona end of part of the resource listing nick nikolaos fotis national technical univ of athens greece home esperidon st internet nfotis theseas ntua gr halandri gr uucp mcsun ariadne theseas nfotis athens greece fax
comp.graphics	apr computer graphics resource listing weekly part archive name graphics resources list part last modified computer graphics resource listing weekly posting part last change april scene generators geographical data maps data files dems digital elevation models dems digital elevation models as well as other cartographic data huge is available from spectrum xerox com pub map contact lee moore webster research center xerox corp voice arpa internet moore wbst xerox com check also on ncgia ucsb edu pub dems nfotis many of these files are also available on cd rom selled by usgs scale digital line graph dlg data contains datas for all states price is about call to or visit in offices in menlo park in reston virginia usa maps the data user services division of the bureau of the census also has data on cd rom tso standard format that is derived from usgs map data call for more info or they have a bbs at from dr dobbs march the u s defense mapping agency in cooperation with their counterpart agencies in canada the u k and australia have released the digital chart of the world dcw this chart consists of over gigabytes of reasonable quality vector data distributed on four cd roms includes coastlines rivers roads railrays airports cities towns spot elevations and depths and over place names it is iso compatible and only available from u s geological survey p o box denver federal center denver co digital distribution services energy mines and resources canada booth street ottawa on k a e canada director general of military survey survey elmwood avenue feltham middlesex tw ah united kingdom director of survey australian army department of defense campbell park offices cp campbell act australia fractal landscape generators public domain many people have written fractal landscape generators for example for the mac some of these generators were written by pdbourke ccu aukuni ac nz paul d bourke many of the programs are available from the ftp sites and mail archive servers check with archie commercial vista pro for the amiga from virtual reality labs list price is about their address is vrl ganador court san luis obispo ca telephone or fax scenery animator also for the amiga is of the same caliber with vista pro check with natural graphics p o box raklin ca phone don t forget to ask about companion programs and data disks tapes vista pro has been ported to the pcs cia world map ii note this database is quite out of date and not topologically structured if you need a standard for world cartographic data wait for the digital chart of the world this m database has been produced from the defense mapping agency s oncs and will be available together with searching and viewing software on a number of cd roms later this summer check into hanauma stanford edu and ucsd edu see ftp list above the cia database consists of coastlines rivers and political boundaries in the form of line strokes also on hanauma stanford edu is a x array of elevation data containing one ieee floating point number for every half degree longitude and latitude a program for decoding the database mfil can be found on the machine pi arc umn edu there s another program which reads a compressed cia data bank file and builds a phigs hierachical structure it uses a phigs extension known as polyline sets for performance but you can use regular polylines ask joe stewart joes lpi liant com the raw data at stanford require the vplot package to be able to view it was posted in comp sources unix to be more exact you ll have to compile just the libvplot routines not the whole package ncar data ncar national center for atmospheric research has many types of terrain data ranging from elevation datasets at various resolutions to information about soil types vegetation etc this data is not free they charge from to or more depending on the data volume and media exabyte tape cartridge track tape ibm pc floppy and ftp transfer are all available their data archive is mostly research oriented not hobbyist oriented for more information email to ilana ncar ucar edu unc data tapes with voxel data there are public domain tapes with data for the comparison and testing of various volume rendering algorithms mainly mri and ct scans these tapes are distributed by the softlab of unc chapel hill softlab cs unc edu the data sets volume i and ii are also available via anonymous ftp from omicron cs unc edu in pub softlab chvrtd nasa many us agencies such as nasa publish cd roms with many altimetry data from various space missions eg viking for mars magellan for venus etc especially for nasa i would suggest to call the following address for more info national space science date center goddard space flight center greenbelt maryland telephone email address request nssdca gsfc nasa gov the data catalog not the data itself is available online internet users can telnet to nssdca gsfc nasa gov and log in as nodis no password you can also dial in at or baud bits no parity one stop at the enter number prompt enter md and carriage return when the system responds call complete enter a few more carriage returns to get the username and log in as nodis no password nssdca is also an anonymous ftp site but no comprehensive list of what s there is available at present earth sciences data there s a listing of anonymous ftp sites for earth science data including imagery this listing is called earth sciences resources on internet and you can get it via anonymous ftp from csn org in the directory cogs under the name internet resources earth sci some sites include aurelie soest hawaii edu pub avhrr images avhrr images ames arc nasa gov pub space cdrom images from magellan and viking missions etc pub space index contains a listing of files available in the whole archive the index is about k by itself there s also an e mail server for the people without internet access send a letter to archive server ames arc nasa gov or ames archive server in the subject of your letter or in the body use commands like send space index send space shuttle ss capitalization is important only text files are handled by the email server at present vab larc nasa gov pub gifs misc landsat landsat photos in gif and jpeg format it was shut down nfotis anyone has a copy of this archive others daily values of river discharge streamflow and daily weather data is available from earthinfo central ave boulder co these disks are expensive around but there are quantity discounts check vmd cso uiuc edu the wx directory carries data regarding surface analysis weather radar and sat view pics in gif format updated hourly pioneer unm edu is the space and planetary image facility located on the university of new mexico campus ftp server it provides anonymous ftp access to cd roms with data images a disk with earthquake data topography gravity geopolitical info is available from ngdc national geophysical data center broadway boulder co eosat at least in the us now sells landsat mss data older than two years old for per scene and they have been talking about a similar deal for landsat tm data the mss data are bands meter resolution check out anonymous ftp to ftp ncsa uiuc edu in unix polyview alpha shape for a tool that creates convex hulls alpha shapes a generalization of the convex hull from d point sets the grips ii gov raster image processing software cd rom is available from cd rom inc at for code for viewing adrg arc digitised raster graphics files is available on the grips ii cd rom the u s army engineer topographic labs juan perez code is also available via ftp adrg zip archive in spectrum xerox com nrcc range data rioux m cournoyer l the nrcc three dimensional image data files tech report cnrc national research council canada ottawa canada from what i understand these data are from a laser range finder and you can a copy for research purposes d scanners digitized d data a cyberware labs monterey ca manufactures a d color laser digitizer which can be used to model parts of or a complete human body they run a service bureau also so they can digitize models for you address cyberware labs inc harris ct suite d monterey ca phone fax b polhemus makes a d input device actually a couple of models that senses position d and orientation d based on electromagnetic field interference this equipment is also incorporated in the vpl dataglove this hardware is also called isotrack from keiser aerospace ascension technology makes a similar d input device there is a company applied sciences that makes a d input device position only based on speed of sound triangulation c a company that specializes in digitizing is viewpoint you can ask for viewpoint s free page catalog full of ready to ship datasets from categories such as cars anatomy aircraft sports boats trains animals and others though these objects are quite expensive the cataloge is nevertheless of interest for it has pictures of all the available objects in wireframe polygon mesh contact viewpoint west center orem utah ph fax dataset some addresses for companies that make digitizers ascension technology bird flock of birds big bird d trackers p o box burlington vt phone fax polhemus incorporated digitizer d trackers p o box hercules dr colchester vt tel logitech inc red baron ultrasonic d mouse kaiser dr freemont ca tel w shooting star technology mechanical headtracker holdom ave burnaby b c canada v b w tel fax spaceball technologies inc spaceball d stationary input device suffolk street lowell ma tel fax tel in mountain view transfinite systems gold brick powerglove for macintosh p o box n mit branch post office cambridge ma tel email d applelink apple com vpl research inc eyephone head mounted display dataglove glove hand input device vpl research inc tower lane th floor foster city ca tel fax simgraphics engineering flying mouse d input device huntington rd suite a south pasadena ca background imagery textures datafiles first check in the ftp places that are mentioned in the faq or in the ftp list above bit scanning get a good bit scanner like epson s suggested is an scsi port for speed eric haines had a suggestion in rt news volume scan textures for wallpapers and floor coverings etc from doll house supplies so you have a rather cheap way to scan patterns that don t have scaling troubles associated with real materials and scanning area books with textures find some houses books magazines that carry photographic material educorp sells cd roms with various imagery also a wide variety of stock art is available stock art from big name stock art houses such as comstock uniphoto and metro image base is available in italy there s a company called belvedere that makes such books for the purpose of clipping their pages for inclusion in your graphics work their address is edition belvedere co ltd rome italy piazzale flaminio tel fax texture libraries a mannikin sceptre graphics announced textiles a set of x bit textures initial shipments in bit iff for amigas soon in bit tiff format algorithmically built for tiled surfaces srp is volume each volume images disks demo disks for are available contact mannikin sceptre graphics indiana ave winter park fl phone fax b essence is a library of sixty five new algoritmic textures for imagine by impulse inc these textures are fully compatible with the floating point versions of imagine imagine and even turbo silver written by steve worley for more info contact essence info apex software publishing el camino real suite menlo park ca usa what about texture city introduction to rendering algorithms a ray tracing i assume you have a general understanding of computer graphics no then read some of the books that the faq contains for ray tracing i would suggest an introduction to ray tracing andrew glassner ed academic press isbn note that i have not read the book but i feel that you can t be wrong using his book an errata list was posted in comp graphics by eric haines erich eye com there s a more concise reference also roman kuchkuda unc chapel hill an introduction to ray tracing in theoretical foundations for computer graphics and cad ed r a e earnshaw nato as vol f pp printed by springer verlag it contains code for a small but fundamentally complete ray tracer b z buffer depth buffer a good reference is procedural elements for computer graphics david f rogers mcgraw hill new york pages and c others more info is needed nfotis where can i find the geometric data for the a teapot displays on display column of ieee cg a jan has the whole story about origin of the martin newell s teapot the article also has the bezier patch model and a pascal program to display the wireframe model of the teapot ieee cg a sep in jim blinn s column jim blinn s corner describes an another way to model the teapot bezier curves with rotations for example are used the off and spd packages have these objects so you re advised to get them to avoid typing the data yourself the off data is triangles at a specific resolution around x x triangles meshing per patch the spd package provides the spline patch descriptions and performs a tessellation at any specified resolution b space shuttle tolis lerios tolis nova stanford edu has built a list of space shuttle datafiles here s a summary from his sci space list model a modified version of the newsgroup model model vertices useful i e referred to in the polygon descriptions polygons vertex vertex vertex vertex payload doors non existent units unknown simon marshall s marshall sequent cc hull ac uk has a copy he said there is no proprietary information associated with it model the newsgroup model in off format you can find it in gondwana ecr mu oz au file pub off objects shuttle geo hanauma stanford edu pub graphics comp graphics objects shuttle data model the triangles model this model is stored in several files each defining portions of the model greg henderson henders infonode ingr com has a copy he did not mention any restriction on the model s distribution model the nasa model the file starts off with a header line containing three real numbers defining the offsets used by lockheed in their simulations x offset y offset z offset from then on the file consists of a sequence of polygon descriptions vertices polygons vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex payload doors closed units inches jon berndt jon l h jsc nasa gov seems to be responsible for the model proprietary info unknown model the old shuttle model the file consists of a sequence of polygon descriptions vertices polygons vertex vertex payload doors open units meters we have been using this model at star labs stanford university for some years now contact me tolis nova stanford edu or my supervisor scott williams scott star stanford edu if you want a copy image annotation software a touchup runs in sunview and is pretty good it reads in rasterfiles but even if your image isn t normally stored in rasterfile format you could use screendump to make it a rasterfile b idraw part of stanford s interviews distribution can handle some image formats in addition to being a macdraw like tool i m not sure exactly what they are you can ftp the idraw s binary from interviews stanford edu c tgif is another macdraw like tool that can handle x bitmap xbm and x pixmap xpm formats if the image you have is in formats other than xbm or xpm you can get the pbmplus toolkit to convert things like gif or even some macintosh formats to xpm tgif s sources are available in the pub directory on cs ucla edu version of tgif at patchlevel plus patch and patch d use the editimage facility of khoros see below this is just one utility in the overall system you can essentially do all your image processing and macdraw type graphics using this package e you might be able to get by with pbmplus pbmtext gives you text output bitmaps which can be overlaid on top of your image f ice requires sun hardware running openwindows it s a postscript based graphical editor and it s available for anonymous ftp from internet host eo soest hawaii edu requires sun c and two other locally developed packages the lxt library an xlib based toolkit and a small c class library all files pub ice tar z pub lxt tar z and pub ldgoc tar z are available in compressed tar format pub ice tar z contains a readme that gives installation instructions as well as an extensive man page ice a statically linked compressed executable pub ice sun z for sparc systems is also available for ftp all software is the property of columbia university and may not be redistributed without permission ice means image composition environment and it s an imaging tool that allows raster images to be combined with a wide variety of postscript annotations in wysiwyg fashion via x imaging routines and news postscript rasterizing g use imagemagick to annotate an image from your x server pick the position of your text with the cursor and choose your font and pen color from a pull down menu imagemagick can read and write many of the more popular image formats imagemagick is available as export lcs mit edu contrib imagemagick tar z or at your nearest x archive scientific visualization stuff x data slice xds bundled with the x distribution from mit in the contrib directory available at ftp ncsa uiuc edu either as a source or binaries for various platforms national center for supercomputing applications ncsa tool suite platforms unix workstations dec ibm sgi sun apple macintosh cray supercomputers availability now available source code in the public domain ftp from ftp ncsa uiuc edu contact national center for supercomputing applications computing applications building e springfield ave champaign il cost free zero dollars the suite includes tools for d image and d scene analysis and visualization the code is actively maintained and updated spyglass they sell commercial versions of the ncsa tools examples are spyglass dicer d volumetric data analysis package platform mac spyglass transform d data analysis package platforms mac sgi sun dec hp ibm contact spyglass inc p o box champaign il khoros patch available via anonymous ftp at pprg eece unm edu cd to pub khoros to see what is available it is huge mb but good needs unix and x r freely copied not pd complete with sources and docs very extensive and at its heart is visual programming khoros components include a visual programming language code generators for extending the visual language and adding new application packages to the system an interactive user interface editor an interactive image display package an extensive library of image and signal processing routines and d d plotting packages see comp soft sys khoros on usenet and the relative faq for more info contact the khoros group room eece dept university of new mexico albuquerque nm email khoros request chama eece unm edu macphase analysis visualization application for the macintosh operates on d and d data arrays import export several different file formats several different plotting options such as gray scale color raster d wire frame d surface contour vector line and combinations ffts filtering and other math functions color look up editor array calculator etc shareware available via anonymous ftp from sumex aim stanford edu in the info mac app directory for other information contact doug norton e mail compuserve com iris explorer it s an application creation system developed by silicon graphics that provides visualisation and analysis functionality for computational scientists engineers and other scientists the explorer gui allows users to build custom applications without having to write any or a minimal amount of traditonal code also existing code can be easily integrated into the explorer environment explorer currently is available now on sgi and cray machines but will become available on other platforms in time bundled with every new sgi machine as far as i know see comp graphics explorer or comp sys sgi for discussion of the package there are also two ftp servers for related stuff modules etc ftp epcc ed ac uk swedishchef lerc nasa gov mirror of the uk site ape back in the old good days you could get ape for nearly free now has gone commercial and the following vendor supplies it taravisual corporation harrison avenue columbus ohio tel and fax cost plus tax runtime version with a site license for a single user at a time no limit on the number of machines in a cluster includes support maintenance and upgrades source code more additional user licenses the name of the package has become ape iii tm khoros is very similar to ape on philosophy as are avs and explorer avs see also comp graphics avs platforms convex cray dec evans sutherland hp ibm kubota set technologies sgi stardent sun wavetracer availability avs available on all the above for all unix workstations contact advanced visual systems inc fifth ave waltham ma telephone fax avs avs com email advanced visual systems inc for cray hp ibm sgi stardent sun convex for convex advanced visual systems inc or cray for cray dec for dec evans sutherland for evans sutherland advanced visual systems inc or ibm for ibm kubota pacific inc for kubota set technologies for set technologies wavetracer for wavetracer ftp site for modules data sets other info avs ncsc org wit in a nutshell it s a package of the same genre as avs explorer etc it seems more a image processing system than a generic scivi system imho major elements are a visual programming language which automatically exploits the inherent parallelism a code generator which converts the graph to a standalone program iconified libraries present a rich set of point filter io transform morphological segmentation and measurement operations a flow library allows graphs to employ broadcast merge synchronization conditional and sequencing control strategies wit delivers an object oriented distributed visual programming environment which allows users to rapidly design solutions to their imaging problems users can consolidate both software and hardware developments within a complete cad like workspace by adding their own operators c functions objects data structures and servers specialized hardware wit runs on sun hp xx sgi and supports datacube mv hardware allowing you to run your graphs in real time for a free wit demo disk call fax or e mail poon ee ubc ca us stating your complete name address voice fax e mail info and desired platform pricing wit for sparc one yr free upgrades days technical support us academic institutions discounts available contact logical vision ltd suite gilmore way burnaby b c canada v g m tel fax terry arden poon ee ubc ca vis d a system for visually exploring the output of d gridded data sets such as those made by weather models platforms sgi iris with vgx gtx tg or g graphics sgi crimson or indigo r elan graphics suggested irix x ibm rs with gl graphics aix version or later stardent gs and gs with truecolor display in any case or more mb of ram are suggested you can get it freely thanks to nasa support via anonymous ftp ftp iris ssec wisc edu or ftp then ftp cd pub vis d ftp ascii ftp get readme ftp bye note you can find the package also on wuarchive wustl edu in the graphics graphics packages directory read section of the readme file for full instructions on how to get and install vis d contact bill hibbard whibbard vms macc wisc edu brian paul bpaul vms macc wisc edu dataexplorer ibm platforms ibm risc system ibm power visualization server simd mesh i s mhz working on announced sgi hp sun contact your local ibm rep for a trial package ask your rep to contact david kilgore data explorer product marketing yktvmh kilcore wavefront data visualizer personal visualizer advanced visualizer platforms sgi sun ibm rs hp dec availability available on all the above platforms from wavefront technologies educational programs and site licenses are available contacts mike wilson mike wti com wavefront technologies inc east montecito street santa barbara ca fax wavefront europe guldenspoorstraat b gent belgium fax wavefront technologies japan f shinjuku sumitomo bldg nishi shinjuku shunjuku ku tokyo japan fax plot d and fast from nasa ames these packages are distributed from cosmic at least for fast ask pat elson pelson nas nasa gov for distribution information in general these codes are for us citizens only xgraph on the contrib tape of x r its specialty is display of up to data sets d ncar national center for atmospheric research one of the original graphics packages runs on sun rs sgi vax cray y mp decstations and more contact graphics information ncar scientific computing division p o box boulder co scdinfo ncar ucar edu cost edu unlimited users gov user users users com users multiply gov idl an environment for scientific computing and visualization based on an array oriented language idl includes d and d graphics matrix manupulation signal and image processing basic statistics gridding mapping and a widget based system for building gui for idl applications open look motif or ms windows environments dec vms and ultrix hp ibm rs sgi sun microsoft windows mac version in progress cost to educational and quantity discounts available see also comp lang idl pvwave the idl pvwave bundle contact research systems inc th street suite boulder co phone fax e mail info rsinc com demo available via ftp call or e mail for details idl sips a lot of people are using idl with a package called sips this was developed at the university of colorado boulder by some people working for alex goetz you might try contacting them if you already have idl or would be willing to buy it it s a few thousand dollars american i expect for idl and the other should be free those are the general purpose packages i ve heard of besides what terramar has sips was written for aviris imagery i m not sure how general purpose it is you would have to contact goetz or one of his people and ask i have another piece of software pcw that does pc and walsh transformations with pseudocoloring and clustering and limited image modification you can compute an image using selected components i ve used it on megabyte aviris images without problems but for the best speed you need an external dsp card it will work without it but large images take quite a while times as long to process that s a freebie if you want it my favorite is idl interactive data language from research systems inc idl is in my opinion much better and infinitely easier its programming language is very strong and easy very pascal like it handles the number crunching very well also personally i like doing the number crunching with idl on the vax or mathematica igor or even excel on the mac if it s not too hairy then bringing it over to nih image for the imaging part i have yet to encounter any situation which that combination couldn t handle and the speed and ease of use compared to iraf was incredible by the way it s mostly astronomical image processing which i ve been doing this means image enhancement cleaning up bad lines pixels and some other traditional image processing routines then for example taking a graph of intensity versus position along a line i choose with the mouse then doing a curve fit to that line which i might do like in kaleidagraph for idl call research systems for pv wave call precision visuals and for sips call university of colorado boulder from what i can understand you can get packaged programs from research systems though nfotis visual contact robert haimes mit fieldview an interactive program designed to assist an engineer in investigating fluid dynamics data sets platforms sgi ibm hp sun x terminals availability currently available on all of the above platforms educational programs and volume discounts are available contact intelligent light p o box fair lawn nj steve kramer kramer ilight com scian scian is primarily intended to do d visualizations of data in an interactive environment with the ability to generate animations using frame accurate video recording devices a user manual on line help and technical notes will help you use the program cost free source code provided via ftp platforms sgi d machines and ibm rs with the gl card z buffer where to find it ftp scri fsu edu pub scian a mirror is monu cc monash edu au pub scian scry from the readme scry is a distributed image handling system that pro vides image transport and compression on local and wide area networks image viewing on workstations recording on video equipment and storage on disk the system can be distri buted among workstations between supercomputers and works tations and between supercomputers workstations and video animation controllers the system is most commonly used to produce video based movie displays of images resulting from visualization of time dependent data complex d data sets and image processing operations both the clients and servers run on a variety of systems that provide unix like c run time environments and bsd sockets the source is available for anonymous ftp csam lbl gov pub scry tar z contact bill johnston wejohnston lbl gov ucbvax csam lbl gov johnston or david robertson dwrobertson lbl gov ucbvax csam lbl gov davidr imaging technologies group ms b lawrence berkeley laboratory cyclotron road berkeley ca svlib fvs svlib is an x windows widget set based on the osf open software foundation motif widget set svlib widgets are macro widgets comprising lower level motif widgets such as buttons scrollbars menus and drawing areas it is designed to address the reusability of d visualization routines and each widget in the library is an encapsulation of a specific visualization technique such as colormap manipulation image display and contour plotting it is targetted to run on unix workstations supporting osf motif currently only color monitors are supported since svlib is a collection of widgets developed in the same spirit as the osf motif user interface widget set it integrates seamlessly with the motif widgets programmers using svlib widgets see the same interface and design as other motif widgets fvs is a visualization software for computational fluid dynamics cfd simulations fvs is designed to accept data generated from these simulations and apply various visualization techniques to present these data graphically fvs accepts three dimensional multi block data recorded in ncsa hdf format iti gov sg pub svlib scientific visualization pu fvs these directories contain demo binaries for sun sgi cost us for academic and us for non academic institutions for each of the above items you re getting the source for the licence contact miss quek lee hian member of technical staff information technology institute national computer board ncb building sicence park drive singapore republic of singapore tel fax email leehian iti gov sg gvlware distribution bob an interactive volume renderer for the sgi raz a disk based movie player for the sgi icol motif color editor the army high performance computing research center ahpcrc has been developing a set of tools to work with large time dependent d and d data sets in the graphics and visualization lab gvl we are using these tools along side standard packages such as sgi explorer and the utah raster toolkit to render d volumes and create digital movies a couple of the more general purpose programs have been bundled into a package called gvlware gvlware currently consisting of bob raz and icol is now available via ftp the most interesting program is probably bob an interactive volume renderer for the sgi raz streams raster images from disk to an sgi screen enabling movies larger than memory to be played icol is a color map editor that works with bob and raz source and pre built binaries for irix are included to acquire gvlware anonymous ftp to machine ftp arc umn edu file pub gvl tar z to use gvlware mkdir gvl cd gvl zcat gvl tar z tar xvf more readme some bob features motif interface sgi gl rendering renders cubed data set in to seconds on a vgx alpha compositing and maximum value rendering in perspective only maximum value rendering on personal iris data must be a brick of bytes on a regularly spaced grid animation subvolumes subsampling stereo some raz features motif interface sgi gl rendering loads files to a raw disk partition then streams to screen requires an empty disk partition to be set aside script interface available for movie sequences can stream from memory like ncsa ximage some icol features motif interface easy to create interpolated color maps between key points rgb hsv and yuv color spaces multiple file formats communicates changes automatically to bob and raz has been tested on sgi sun dec and cray systems btw bob brick of bytes icol interpolated color raz just a name please send any comments to gvlware ahpcrc umn edu this software collection is supported by the army research office contract number daalo c with the university of minnesota army high performance computing research center iap imaging applications platform is a commercial package for medical and scientific visualization it does volume rendering binary surface rendering multiplanar reformating image manipulation cine sequencing intermixes geometry and text with images and provides measurement and coordinate transform abilities it can provide hardcopy on most medical film printers image database functionality and interconnection to most medical ct mri etc scanners it is client server based and provides an object oriented interface it runs on most high performance workstations and takes full advantage of parallelism where it is available it is robust efficient and will be submitted for fda approval for use in medical applications cost k for oem developer k for educational developer and run times starting at and going down based on quantity the developer packages include two days training for two people in toronto available from isg technologies airport road mississauga ontario canada l v s e mail rod gilchrist rod isgtec com molecular visualization stuff based on a list from cristy dupont com cristy which asked for systems for displaying molecular dynamics md for short flex it is a public domain package written by michael pique at the scripps research institute la jolla ca flex is stored as a compressed tar ed archive about mb at perutz scripps edu in pub flex it displays molecular models and md trajectories macmolecule for macintosh i searched with archie and the most promising place is sumex aim stanford edu info mac app and info mac art qt for a demo md display runs on sgi machines call terry lybrand lybrand milton u washington edu xtalview it is a crystallography package that does visualize molecules and much more it uses the xview toolkit call duncan mcree dem scripps edu landman hal physics wayne edu i am writing my own visualization code right now i look at md output a specific format easy to alter for the subroutine on pc s my program has hooks into gks if your friend has access to phigs for x pex and fortran bindings i would be happy to share my evolving code free of charge right now it can display supercells of up to atoms easy to change and up to time steps drawing nearest neighbor bonds between defining nn radii it works acceptably fast on a mhz icsg caesar cs montana edu i did a project on molecular visualization for my master s thesis using unix x motif which generates a simple point and space filling model kgngraf kgngraf is part of motecc look on malena crs it in pub motecc motecc info txt information about motecc in plain ascii format motecc info troff information about motecc in troff format motecc form troff motecc order form in troff format motecc license troff motecc license agreement in troff format motecc info ps information about motecc in postscript format motecc form ps motecc order form in postscript format motecc license ps motecc license agreement in postscript format ditolla itnsg cineca it i m working on molecular dynamic too a friend of mine and i have developed a program to display an md run dynamically on silicon graphics we are working to improve it but it doesn t work under x we are using the graphi lib of the silicon gr because they are much faster then x when we ll end it we ll post on the news info about where to get it with ftp will be free software xball v written by david nedde call daven maxine wpi edu xmol an x window system program that uses osf motif for the display and analysis of molecular model data data from several common file formats can be read and written current formats include alchemy chemlab ii gaussian molsim mopac pdb and msci s xyz format which has been designed for simplicity in translating to and from other formats xmol also allows for conversion between several of these formats xmol is available at ftp msc edu read pub xmol readme for further details insight ii from biosym technologies inc scarecrow the program has been published in j molecular graphics the program can analyze and display charmm discover yasp and mumod trajectories the program package contains also software for the generation of probe surfaces proton affinity surfaces and molecular orbitals from an extended huckel program it works on silicon graphics machines contact leif laaksonen leif laaksonen csc fi or laaksone csc fi multi ns niehs nih gov pub multi multi process molecular modeling suite mindtool it runs under sunview and requires a fortran compiler and sun s cgi libraries mindtool is a tool provided for the interactive graphic manipulation of molecules and atoms currently up to atoms may be input available via anonymous ftp at rani chem yale edu directory pub mindtool check with archie for other sites if that s too far i would also suggest looking at least in sgi s applications directory it contains many more packages nfotis gis geographical information systems software grass geographic resource analysis support system of the us army construction engineering research lab cerl it is a popular geographic and remote sensing image processing package many may think of grass as a geographic information system rather than an image processing package although it is reported to have significant image processing capabilities feature descriptions i use grass because it s public domain and can be obtained through the internet for free grass runs in unix and is written in c the source code can be obtained through an anonymous ftp from the office of grass integration you then compile the source code for your machine using scripts provided with grass i would recommend grass for someone who already has a workstation and is on a limited budget grass is not very user friendly compared to macintosh software a first review of overview documentation indicates that it looks useful and has some pixel resampling functions not in other packages plus good general purpose image enhancement routines fft kelly maurice at vexcel corp in boulder co is a primary user of grass this gentleman has used the grass software and developed multi spectral bands volumetric rendering full color on suns and stardents it was a really effective interface vexcel corp currently has a contract to map part of venus and convert the magellan radar data into contour maps you can call them at or email care of greg vexcel com host configuration requirements if you are willing to run a ux you could install grass on a macintosh which has significant image analysis and import capabilities for satellite data grass is public domain and can run on a high end pc under unix it is raster based has some image processing capability and can display vector data but analysis must be done in the raster environment i have used grass v on a sun workstation and found it easy to use it is best of course for data that are well represented in raster grid cell form availability cerl s office of grass integration ogi maintains an ftp server moon cecer army mil mail regarding this site should be addressed to grass ftp admin moon cecer army mil this location will be the new canonical source for grass software as well as bug fixes contributed sources documentation and other files this ftp server also supports dynamic compression and uncompression and tar archiving of files a feature attraction of the server is john parks grass tutorial because the manual is still in beta test stage john requests that people only acquire it if they are willing to review it and mail him comments corrections the ogi is not currently maintaining this document so all correspondence about it should be directed to grassx tang uark edu support listserv mailing lists grassu list amber cecer army mil for grass users application level questions support concerns miscellaneous questions etc send subscribe commands to grassu request amber cecer army mil grassp list amber cecer army mil for grass programmers system level questions and tips tricks and techniques of design and implementation of grass applications send subscribe commands to grassp request amber cecer army mil both lists are maintained by the office of grass integration subset of the army corps of engineers construction engineering research lab in champaign il the ogi is providing the lists as a service to the community while ogi and cerl employees will participate in the lists we can make no claim as to content or veracity of messages that pass through the list if you have questions problems or comments send e mail to lists owner amber cecer army mil and a human will respond microstation imager intergraph based in huntsville alabama sells a wide range of gis software hardware microstation is a base graphics package that imager sits on top of imager is basically an image processing package with a heavy gis remote sensing flavor feature description basic geometry manipulations flip mirror rotate generalized affine rectification affine nd rd th and th order models as well as a projective model warp an image to a vector map or to another image rgb to ihs and ihs to rgb conversion principal component analysis classification k means and isodata fourier xforms forward filtering and reverse filters high pass low pass edge enhancing median generic complex histogram contrast control layer controller manages up to images at a time user can extract single bands from a band image or create color images by combining various individual bands etc the package is designed for a remote sensing application it can handle very large images and there is all kinds of other software available for gis applications host configuration requirements it runs on intergraph workstations a unix machine similar to a sun though there were rumors there are always rumors that the software would be ported to pc and possibly a sun environment pci a company called pci inc out of richmond hill ontario canada makes an array of software utilities for processing manipulation and use of remote sensing data in eight or ten different industry standard formats lgsowg bsq landsat and a couple of others whose titles i forget the software is available in versions for ms dos unix workstations among them hp sun and ibm and vms and quite possibly other platforms by now i use the vms version the pci software consists of several classes groups packages of utilities grouped by function but all operating on a common pci database disk file the tape i o package is a set of utility programs which read from the various remote sensing industry tape formats into or write those formats out from the pci database file this is the only package i use or know much about other packages can display data from the pci database to one or another of several pci supported third party color displays output numeric or bitmap representation of image data to an attached printer e g an epson type dot matrix graphics printer you might be more spe cifically interested in the mathematical operations package histo gram and fourier analysis equalization user specified operations e g multiply channel by add channel and store as channel and god only knows what all else there s a lot i don t have and don t use these so can t say much about them you only buy the packages your particular application interest calls for each utility is controlled by from one to eight parameters read from a common parameter file which must be in vms anyway in your default directory some utilities will share parameters and use the same parameter for a different purpose so it can get a bit confusing setting up a series of operations the standard pci environment contains a scripting language very similar to ibm pc basic but which allows you to automate the process of setting up parameters for a common complicated lengthy or difficult series of utility executions in vms i can also invoke utilities independently from a dcl command procedure there s also an optional programming library which allows you to write compiled language programs which can interface with read from write to the pci data structures database file parameter file the pci software is designed specifically for remote sensing images but requires such a level of operator expertise that once you reach the level where you can handle r s images you can figure out ways to handle a few other things as well for instance the tape i o package offers a utility for reading headerless multi band what adobe photoshop on the macintosh calls raw data from tape in a number of different interleave orders this turns out to be ideal for manipulating the graphic arts industry s ct t format would probably i haven t tried handle targa and so on above all however you have to know what you re doing or you can screw up to the nth degree and have to start over it s worth noting that the pci database file is designed to contain not only raster image data but vectors for overlaying map information entered via digitizing table land use and all manner of other information i observe that a remote sensing image tape often contains all manner of information about the spectral bands latitude longitude time date etc of the original satellite pass all of this can go into the pci database i believe that on workstations the built in display is used on vax systems other than workstations pci supports only a couple of specific third party display systems the name gould deanza seems to come to mind one of my personal workarounds was a display program which would display directly from a pci database file to a peritek vct q q bus bit directcolor display subsystem pci software could be overkill in your case it seems designed for the very high end applications users i e those for whom a mac pc largely doesn t suffice although as you know the gap is getting smaller all the time it s probably no coincidence that pci is located in canada a country which does a lot of its land resource management via remote sensing i believe the canadian government uses pci software for some of its work in these areas spam spectral analysis manager back in jpl developed something called spam spectral analysis manager which got a fair amount of use at the time that was designed for airborne imaging spectrometer imagery byte data pixels across by lines by bands a modified version has since been developed for aviris airborne visual and infrared imaging spectrometer which uses much larger images spam does none of these things rectification classification pc and ihs transformations filtering contrast enhancement overlays actually it does limited filtering and contrast enhancement stretching spam is aimed at spectral identification and clustering the original spam uses x or sunview to display the aviris version may require vicar an executive based on tae and may also require a frame buffer i can refer you to people if you re interested pcw requires x for display map ii among the mac gis systems map ii is distributed by john wiley clrview clrview is a dimensional visualization program designed to exploit the real time capabilities of silicon graphics iris computers this program is designed to provide a core set of tools to aid in the visualization of information from cad and gis sources it supports the integration of many common but disperate data sources such as dxf tin dem lattices and arc info coverages among others clrview can be obtained from explorer dgp utoronto ca in the directory pub sgi clrview contact rodney hoinkes head of design applications centre for landscape research university of toronto tel email rodney dgp utoronto ca end of resource listing nick nikolaos fotis national technical univ of athens greece home esperidon st internet nfotis theseas ntua gr halandri gr uucp mcsun ariadne theseas nfotis athens greece fax
comp.graphics	wanted references on parallel algorithms element analysis radiosity distributed processing hi i m looking for references to parallel algorithms on octrees adaptive subdivision adaptive meshing finite element meshing analysis radiosity any help will be greatly appreciated e mail replies to dave small dts cis ufl edu
comp.graphics	need help z buffering lines areas together i m asking for help on a sticky problem involving unreasonably low apparent precision in z buffering that i ve encountered in different pex implementations i can t find any discussion of this problem in any resources i can lay hands on e g the comp windows x pex faq gaskins s pexlib programming manual vendors documentation i m posting this article by itself on comp graphics and virtually the same article with a test program demonstrating the problem on comp windows x pex the problem is hard to describe without pictures hence this article is longish if you can run pexlib x programs and are interested i encourage you to build and run the test program in comp windows x pex to see the effect yourself and play with my approach to dealing with it it depends on the utility code from the above gaskins book instructions for fetching it via anonymous ftp are given the problem to be solved is to eliminate or minimize stitching artifacts resulting from the use of z buffering with polylines that are coplanar with filled areas the interpolated z values along a line will differ slightly due to roundoff error from the interpolated z values across an area even when the endpoints of the line are coincident with vertices of the area because of this it s a tossup whether the z buffer will allow the line pixels or the area pixels to be displayed visually the result tends to be a dashed line effect even though the line is supposed to be solid using the pexlib api my approach to a solution is to use two slightly different pex view mapping transforms in two view table entries one for the areas and one for the lines the pex structures or immediate mode output must be organized so that one view table index is always in effect for areas and the other is always in effect for lines the result is a slight shift in npc z coordinates for the lines so as to attempt to bias the tossup situations in favor of the lines this shift is effected by moving the front and back clipping planes used in the pexlib view table entry for lines just a hair backwards i e smaller vrc z coordinates compared to their positions in the view table entry used for areas this means that when a point is transformed to npc its z value will be slightly bigger if it comes from a line than if it comes from an area thus accomplishing the desired bias i would expect the z roundoff errors which cause the problem to amount to a few units at most out of the entire dynamic range of the z buffer typically from to if not i e or bit z buffers therefore it seems that a tiny fraction of the range of z in vrc between the front and back clip planes ought to suffice to reliably fix the stitching but in fact experience shows that the shift has to be as much as to of the range empirically it s worst when the npc z component of the slope of the surface is high i e when it appears more or less edge on to the viewer it s as if only or bits of the z buffer have any dependable meaning this amount is so great that one problem is replaced by another sometimes the polylines show through areas which they are supposed to lie behind i ve observed the problem on both hewlett packard and digital workstation pex servers to approximately the same degree the test program demonstrates the problem on an mit pexlib x implementation this version is known to compile and run on an hp ux system with pex open questions why does this happen am i configuring the pex view table wrongly is there a systematic difference in z interpolation for lines as opposed to areas e g pixel centers versus corners which could be corrected for are pex implementors wantonly discarding z precision in their interpolators something else what to do about it can i fix my use of the view table to allow better precision in z buffered hlhsr is there another approach i can take to remove the stitching artifacts am i just out of luck any help would be immensely appreciated dave gorgen internet gorgen ann arbor applicon slb com applicon inc gorgen aaaca sinet slb com ann arbor michigan usa uucp uunet sharkey applga gorgen
comp.graphics	raytriacing and animation now i have a couple raytracing questions just so you know i m using povray both ms dos and unix and i m generating targa files of varying size ok so i can view these wonderful pictures on my screen what s the best way to get them on to paper would it be possible to take it to kinko s and have them make an actual picture on paper from it i was thinking about making a small animation bit with different raytraced frames is this a bad idea any tricks to it how would i get a sequence of targa files made into an animation that i could put on a videotape is there a cheap way
comp.graphics	need gif iff file format could somebody please email me some info on either what gif or iff file formats are or where i can get such info thanx rtaraz wpi wpi edu
comp.graphics	archiving gif what s the best way to archive gif s i zip them and they only shrink i have most compression programs except stacker which i heard was good for gif s thanx brando ps please e mail me i don t get down this far on the news usually
comp.graphics	re povray tga rle in article ltqp innpa pageboy cs utexas edu jhpark cs utexas edu jihun park writes hello i have some problem in converting tga file generated by povray to rle file when i convert i do not get any warning message but if i use xloadimage getx something is wrong edited i know that i need to install ppmtorle and tgatoppm but i do not spend time to install them even i do not want to generate rgb from povray and then convert them to rle if possible rgb to rle works but it will mess up my directory with so many files and it needs more steps to finally convert to rle file say cat rawtorle rleflip does any body out there have same experience problems well for starters why use rle files you might have a specific program that needs them ok but i tend to convert straight to jpeg format thus a meg bit targa file becomes a k or less bit jpeg the latest versions of xv and xloadimage both handle jpeg files and the best way to convert to jpeg is with the c djpeg suit even at quality you can t see the difference the jpeg is way smaller than anything else even an bit gif later ish craig i didn t do it nobody saw me do it you can t prove anything craig humphrey stargate actrix gen nz ccc c ccc c chumphre comp vuw ac nz
comp.graphics	kubota kenai denali specs okay i got enough replies about the kubota kenai denali systems that i will post a summary of their capabilities i haven t actually used one or seen one so take the specs with a grain of salt i d like to see an independent review of one against say an sgi indigo extreme or something basically the kenai workstations are dec alpha axp based workstations that run osf dec s and will likely run windows nt in the future they are binary compatible with digital s osf alpha axp implementation denali is their graphics subsystem which is upgradable in the field by simply adding transformation engines the two main kenai machines are the imaging and d graphics workstation and the imaging and d graphics workstation cpu dec alpha axp mhz dec alpha axp mhz on chip cache k k k k onboard cache k k word size bit bit memory initial mb mb memory future mb gb specmark specint specfp graphics transform modules frame buffer modules frame buffer x x bit x x bit double buffered double buffered z buffer bit bit alpha stencil bit bit stereo support yes yes other both machines will double buffer or do stereo output per window both have an auxiliary video output that is rs a ntsc and pal storage internal fixed internal removable max capacity gb gb io both have turbochannel mb sec scsi ethernet and fddi application programming interfaces both have libraries for xlib motif mit pexlib dec pexlib dec phigs and gl okay now the real stuff the kenai stations work with a graphics architecture known as denali the denali comes in three models the e p and v they use a decchip superscalar risc processor at mhz their capabilities are as follows e p v d vectors k k k d vectors k k k d vectors k k k d vectors k k k d triangles k k k d triangles k k k pixel flat shaded connected pixel gouraud shaded connected pixel pixel wide anti aliased connected pixel gouraud shaded z buffered strip pixel texture mapped persp point sampled image processing cine loop bit mp s mp s mp s cine loop bit mp s mp s mp s cine loop bit mp s mp s mp s contrast stretching mp s mp s mp s bilinear zoom mp s mp s mp s trilinear interp mvoxels s mvoxels s lookup table bit to trilinear interpolation bit voxels configurations frame buffer modules transform engine mod as you can see these are pretty powerful workstations and the best part is the pricing i would recommend that you call kubota for more information their number is i m sure they ll send you an information you may want oh some prices low end kenai e series w tem and fbm dollars u s kenai e series w tem and fbm dollars u s high end kenai v series w tem and fbm dollars u s kenai v series w tem and fbm dollars u s if someone could post a relative comparision with an indigo extreme or something i would appreciate it hope this helps someone out there brian ps i am not affiliated with kubota in any way hell i thought they made tractors or something
comp.graphics	autocad graphics converter could anybody tell me if exists any program to convert autocad graphics to another format gif tiff bmp pcx and where to get it thanks in advance j c cuesta cuesta tidsa madrid spain
comp.graphics	looking for code to brake image into sub bands hi all i am working on a project in which i need to brake an image into sub bands and then work with them since i have never done anything like this don t even understand the concept of sub bands i was wondering if there is some software out there that would allow me to do this any hints thanks scott violet xepo csd csd uwm edu
comp.graphics	re virtual reality for x on the cheap peter gort trl oz au peter k campbell writes ridout bink plk af mil brian s ridout writes in article apr mfltd co uk sts mfltd co uk steve sherwood x writes has anyone got multiverse to work extn sts mfltd co uk uunet mfocus sts i ve tried compiling it on several sparcstations with gcc after fixing up a few bugs missing constant definitions plus a couple of other things i got it to compile link but after starting client server i just get a black window sometimes the client core dumps sometimes the server sometimes i get a broken pipe sometimes it just sits there doing nothing although i occassionally get the cursor to become a cross hair in dog fight but that s it i ve sent word to the author plus what i did to fix it last week but no reply as yet peter k campbell p campbell trl oz au i ve discovered a bug in the libraries parser parser c loadcolour function where it was generating a segmentation fault it appears the colourlist is geting corrupted somehow i had it return random colours instead and everything worked great except for a few colour problems so i know its the only thing wrong the colour table somehow gets a couple of nulls placed in it so when the name of the colours are compared it crashes i haven t found the problem yet maybe someone else can adrian turner university college of northern victoria turner ironbark ucnv edu au
comp.graphics	looking for graig toontown i noticed you post in comp graphics and know a person with your name i was wondering if you used to live in paxton mass if so i have a friend that would like to say hi sorry for the inconvience if this isn t who i think it is sr
comp.graphics	re gif to targa in article apr fuw edu pl muchor fuw edu pl krzysztof muchorowski writes hello subject says it all i need a gif to targa converter so that my dta could make a fli of them krzysztof dta will make a fli from gifs as well as targas you don t need a converter also get the latest version of dta from wuarchive wustl edu in pub msdos uploads
comp.graphics	re acm siggraph registration problem zyda cs nps navy mil michael zyda notes a word of warning for those of you registering for siggraph i just received my registration form back in the mail with the envelope marked return to sender moved left no address closed po box the address i used to register for siggraph is the one printed on the registration form acm siggraph po box chicago il i printed the envelope in my best printing honest but evidently siggraph has skipped town or moved i ended up faxing my registration to i hope that number is real michael zyda i had the same problem and called the people who handle the box the problem happened some time ago and was caught almost instantly all registrations going to that address are now fixed see what trouble you get into when you don t procrastinate mike and no siggraph has not skipped town we re preparing the best siggraph conference yet steve cunningham
comp.graphics	hpgl viewer and utilities hi i would like to know if there is any software pd or not who could produce x output of hpgl file on rs and same kind of software who could produce hardcopy on postscript and lasetjet thank you gaetan lord voice analyste fax ecole polytechnique de montreal p o box station a montreal quebec canada there s no future in time travel j t c
comp.graphics	re why does illustrator autotrace so poorly i ve had pretty good success autotracing line art with adobe streamline the key to controlling excessive points etc is to take some time and do some test conversions using various tolerance settings jim powlesland internet powlesla acs ucalgary ca academic computing services voice university of calgary message calgary alberta canada t n n fax
comp.graphics	re cross sobel roberts filters in article apr waikato ac nz pdenize waikato ac nz writes i saw an imaging program some time ago on an amiga that had cross sobel and roberts filters for edge detection can anybody direct me to these algorithms ok never heard of cross filters but roberts prewitt and sobel filters are standard spatial masks for edge detection highpass filtering does a good job of detecting edges too a good reference for all sorts of general digital image processing is the book digital image processing by rafael c gonzalez and richard e woods addison wesley publishing co isbn i ve used this source to do the above filters and many other things as a grad project not too dificult to do the worst part is loading in the images from tiff gif iff ilbm whatever wayne rigby rigby cs unr edu
comp.graphics	source code help on ip packages please greetings this is a general call for information regarding image processing i am looking for any material related to the field and am also trying to get my hands on some easy to use packages related to the field in particular source code for general use packages i already have several texts on the subject but would appreciate more input from people more knowledgable in the field than myself i m not mathematically literate ie i don t have a degree in mathematics so any material that is suggested i would prefer that it was not mathematically intensive the best book i have found on the subject at the moment is practical digital image processing by rhys lewis isbn published by ellis horwood c likewise i am trying to get a fair sample of programs that demonstrate image processing techniques so far i have xv and khoros for unix dcview for the ibm pc and various related smatterings of c code to help describe topics like contrasting dithering image enhancement via convolution etc if anyone could kindly supply me with some public domain software pertinent to this area or better still if they could tell me where i am most likely to find it on the aarnet internet if i can i would prefer source code in c or turbo pascal that includes some image processing code algorithms that i can readily alter manipulate for the purposes of demonstration it would be most helpful all the above information will contribute to my post graduate studies and will be liberally used in my paper and seminar on the subject thanks in advance vance ashlin diploma advanced computing thinking is dangerous subversive mindnumbing and leads you astray ashlin ironbark ucnv edu au i redgum ucnv edu au
comp.graphics	re quicktime performance was re rumours about do in article apr waikato ac nz ldo waikato ac nz lawrence d oliveiro waikato university writes path dime ymir cs umass edu nic umass edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl waikato ac nz ldo from ldo waikato ac nz lawrence d oliveiro waikato university newsgroups comp multimedia comp graphics date apr gmt references mar aragorn unibe ch apr rchland ibm com organization university of waikato hamilton new zealand lines xref dime comp multimedia comp graphics ok with all the discussion about observed playback speeds with quicktime the effects of scaling and so on i thought i d do some more tests first of all i felt that my original speed test was perhaps less than realistic the movie i had been using only had frames in it it was a version of the very first movie i created with the compact video compressor i decided something a little longer would give closer to real world results for better or for worse i pulled out a copy of a space odyssey that i had recorded off tv a while back about fifteen minutes into the movie there s a sequence where the earth shuttle is approaching the space station specifically i digitized a portion of about seconds duration zooming in on the rotating space station i figured this would give a reasonable amount of movement between frames to increase the differences between frames i digitized it at only frames per second to give a total of frames i captured the raw footage at a resolution of pixels with the spigot card in my centris quarter size resolution from a pal source i then imported it into premiere and put it through the compact video compressor keeping the fps frame rate i created two versions of the movie one scaled to resolution the other at resolution i used the default quality setting in premiere and specified a key frame every ten frames i then ran the movie through the same raw speed test program i used for the results i d been reporting earlier result a playback rate of over frames per second that s right i was getting a much higher result than with that first short test movie just for fun i copied the movie to my external hard disk a quantum lp s and ran it from there this time the playback rate was only about frames per second obviously the mb internal hard disk also a quantum is a significant contributor to the speed of playback i modified my speed test program to allow the specification of optional scaling factors and tried playing back the movie scaled to size this time the playback speed was over fps clearly the poster who observed poor performance on scaled playback was seeing quicktime in action not i d try my tests with quicktime but i don t think it s entirely compatible with my centris and system unscaled the playback rate for the movie was over fps the other thing i tried was saving versions of the movie with preferred playback rates greater than and seeing how well they played from within movieplayer ie with quicktime s normal synchronized playback a preferred rate of fps didn t work too well the playback was very jerky compare this with the raw speed test which achieved fps with ease i can t believe that quicktime s synchronization code would add this much overhead i think the slowdown was coming from the mac system s task switching a preferred rate of fps seemed to work fine i couldn t see any evidence of stutter at fps i think i could see slight stutter but with four key frames every second it was hard to tell i guess i could try recreating the movies with a longer interval between the key frames to make the stutter more noticeable of course this will also improve the compression slightly which should speed up the playback performance even more lawrence d oliveiro fone computer services dept fax university of waikato electric mail ldo waikato ac nz hamilton new zealand s e gmt i m afraid i missed the start of this thread but there are three factors that can significantly affect quicktime s playback speed that you may want to take into account playback bit depth things are fastest when you play a movie back at the bit depth it was compressed for this is usually or bit but other depths are of course possible type of scaling qt is optimized for double size scaling other scaling factors hit peformance much harder playback window position movieplayer limits your window placement choices to advantagous pixel boundaries by default i m not sure about premiere any combination of those can radically alter playback performance image size is of course another biggie giving the movie player lots of ram can also make a real difference forgive me if these were mentioned earlier in the thread peter lee peter e lee software conductor specular international inc lee cs umass edu or h or w beauty is bits deep plus eight bits of alpha channel
comp.graphics	re help need bits viewer in article seti inria fr deniaud cartoon inria fr gilles deniaud writes hi i m looking for a program which is able to display bits images we are using a sun sparc equipped with parallax graphics board running x xli xloadimage or imagemagick export lcs mit edu contrib graeme gill
comp.graphics	re povray tga rle in article ltqp innpa pageboy cs utexas edu jhpark cs utexas edu jihun park writes hello i have some problem in converting tga file generated by povray to rle file when i convert i do not get any warning message but if i use xloadimage getx something is wrong error messages are targatorle o o rle data tga xloadimage o rle o rle is a x bit rle image with no map will dither to bits with gamma of dithering image done building ximage done xloadimage x error badvalue integer parameter out of range for operation on x xloadimage x error badwindow invalid window parameter on xb this happens when your x server has run out of memory you need more memory or you need to quit any un neccessary running clients graeme gill
comp.graphics	re povray tga rle in rkkb gec st james comp vuw ac nz craig humphrey comp vuw ac nz craig andrew humphrey writes in article ltqp innpa pageboy cs utexas edu jhpark cs utexas edu jihun park writes hello i have some problem in converting tga file generated by povray to rle file when i convert i do not get any warning message but if i use xloadimage getx something is wrong edited i know that i need to install ppmtorle and tgatoppm but i do not spend time to install them even i do not want to generate rgb from povray and then convert them to rle if possible rgb to rle works but it will mess up my directory with so many files and it needs more steps to finally convert to rle file say cat rawtorle rleflip does any body out there have same experience problems well for starters why use rle files exactly i didn t want to mess with tga or rle so i wrote the following script all you need is the very standard set of pbm utilities this script is a pov to jpg converter just run it like this pov jpg fred pov you will need to modify the path s in the script to reflect where you put povray and its include files if you have a problem with disk space you can use named pipes instead of temporary files i hope you find it useful bin sh if lt then echo usage width height sourcefile pov other options exit fi width height datafile shift basedatafile echo datafile sed e s pov thedatafile basename datafile basedatafile basename datafile pov dirdatafile dirname datafile cd dirdatafile afs rnd sas com u sherman pov povsrc build povray l afs rnd sas com u sherman pov povscn include o tmp data w width h height fr i thedatafile echo rawtopgm width height tmp data grn tmp green rawtopgm width height tmp data red tmp red rawtopgm width height tmp data blu tmp blue rgb toppm tmp red tmp green tmp blue cjpeg basedatafile jpg rm tmp red tmp green tmp blue tmp data grn tmp data red tmp data blu echo wrote output to basedatafile jpg chris sherman sherman unx sas com
comp.graphics	adobe photoshop mailing list i ve done a bit of looking and havn t been able to come up with a mailing list or newsgroup for users of adobe photoshop assuming i ve just not missed it i ll go ahead and see if there is enough interest to start a mailing list and or alt newsgroup drop me a note if you might be interested in subscribing thanks bob wier not of the grateful dead insert usual disclaimers here bob wier east texas state u commerce texas historic image processing project wier merlin etsu edu watch for address change
comp.graphics	re morphing in article news duke edu seth north acpub duke edu seth wandersman writes keywords i am looking for some morphing programs for dec s or pc s i looked for a program called dmorph using archie but could not find it i found a progrmam call morpho but it only did grayscale images does anyone know where i should look try searching for dmorf i think it s located on wuarchive wustl edu in a mirror directory i ve used it before it was pretty good pete wilmshurst email wilmshurst reg triumf ca
comp.graphics	ds where did all the te to rych festival ed ac uk r hawkes rh i ve noticed that if you only save a model with all your mapping planes rh positioned carefully to a ds file that when you reload it after restarting rh ds they are given a default position and orientation but if you save rh to a prj file their positions orientation are preserved does anyone rh know why this information is not stored in the ds file nothing is this is because the prj project format saves all of your settings right down to the last render file s name rh i d like to be able to read the texture rule information does anyone have rh the format for the prj file sorry don t have anything on that or the cel format r c v t ell r deluxe sa stupid line noise
comp.graphics	re parametric variational design here now some initial references best regards walter inproceedings keirouz et al author walid keirouz and jahir pabon and robert young title integrating parametric geometry features and variational modeling for conceptual design booktitle international conference on design theory and methodology year editor j r rinderle pages organization american society of mechanical engineers asme optpublisher optaddress optmonth note proceedings inproceedings yamaguchi kimura author yasushi yamaguchi and fumihiko kimura title a constraint modeling system for variational geometry booktitle geometric modeling for product engineering year editor michael j wozny and j u turner and k preiss pages organization ifip publisher elsevier science publishers b v north holland amsterdam the netherlands optaddress optmonth note selected and expanded papers form the ifip wg nsf working conference on geometric modeling rensselaerville ny u s a september inproceedings chung et al author jack c h chung and joseph w klahs and robert l cook and thijs sluiter title implementation issues in variational geometry and constraint management booktitle third international conference on cad cam robotics and factories of the future cars and fof year opteditor optpages optorganization optpublisher address detroit michigan usa month august note proceedings probably springer verlag berlin heidelberg article kimura et al author fumihiko kimura and hiromasa suzuki and toshio sata title variational product design by constraint propagation and satisfaction in product modelling journal annals of the cirp year volume number pages optmonth note probably international institution for production engineering research article kimura et al author f kimura and h suzuki and h ando and t sato and a kinosada title variational geometry based on logical constraints and its applications to product modelling journal annals of the cirp year volume number pages inproceedings chung schussel author jack c h chung and martin d schussel title comparison of variational and parametric design booktitle autofact year opteditor pages optorganization optpublisher address detroit michigan usa month october november note conference proceedings article pabon et al author jahir pabon and robert young and walid keirouz title integrating parametric geometry features and variational modeling for conceptual design journal international journal of systems automation research and applications sara year volume optnumber pages optmonth optnote article kondo author koichi kondo title pigmod parametric and interactive geometric modeller for mechanical design journal cad computer aided design year volume number pages month december note butterworth heinemann ltd inproceedings zalik et al a author borut v z alik and nikola guid and aleksander vesel title parametric design using constraint description graph booktitle cad neue konzepte zur realisierung anwendungsorientierter cad systeme year editor frank lothar krause and detlev ruland and helmut jansen pages optorganization publisher informatik aktuell springer verlag berlin heidelberg optaddress month mai note gi fachtagung berlin inproceedings murtagh shimura author niall murtagh and masamichi shimura title parametric engineering design using constraint based reasoning booktitle aaai eighth national conference on artificial intelligence year opteditor pages organization american association for artificial intelligence publisher proceedings volume one aaai press menlo park ca u s a address boston ma month july august optnote
comp.graphics	re need gif iff file format in article rkjm i q bigboote wpi edu rtaraz bigwpi wpi edu ramin taraz writes could somebody please email me some info on either what gif or iff file formats are or where i can get such info well gif stands for graphics interchange format and was put forth by compuserve back in or so it was to create a format that could be read and displayed by any system gif is limited to bit color but has a built in compression scheme lzw iff is not really a graphics format but rather a standard way to package images sounds animations text or whatever into one file iff was created by electronic arts i do believe i could be wrong for the amiga it was quickly adopted as pretty much the standard file format for the amiga the most common image format for the iff package is an ilbm interleaved bitmap but many others exist this format supports bit color images information on both of these and many more are available via anonymous ftp at zamenhof cs rice edu in the directory pub graphics formats taken from the faq for this news group wayne rigby rigby cs unr edu
comp.graphics	pov where sorry if this is a faq but where can i get a bit version of pov ray any help would be greatly appreciated i need the version since turbo pascal won t let me run a bit program from within my program any info on this would also be a great help thanks byron bkidd esk compserv utas edu au b kidd cam compserv utas edu au byron kidd e mail computing services
comp.graphics	geosphere image article of alt graphics newsgroups alt graphics path news nd edu moliere rmalayte from rmalayte moliere helios nd edu ryan malayter subject geosphere images via ftp message id apr news nd edu sender news news nd edu usenet news system organization university of notre dame notre dame date mon apr gmt does anyone know if a digitized version of the geosphere image is available via ftp for those of you who don t know it is a composite photograph of the entire earth with cloudcover removed i just think it s really cool it was created with government funds and sattelites as a research project so i would assume it s in the public domain thanks for any info ryan college men get smashed and break something college women get smashed and get broken robin wilson president ryan p malayter chico state university stanford hall notre dame in n d dept of physics comp sci malayter nd edu
comp.graphics	help colour display restriction limitation hi netters i m doing a project which is about image analysis firstly i have to find out any restrictions or limitations on the colour display on various kind of workstations they are decstation hp amiga apollo secondly i read from some graphic texts that image is displayed in bites please point out to me if i got it wrong but the images which i will deal with are displayed in bites by the software they are using currently so will there be any problems to display them under x windows in the future because we are thinking to implement the gui by x windows for our project is there any person here can help me to solve the problem or query above or give me some advice or suggestion where i can find them out please send me an e mail if there are any thanks in advance yours christine chan my address golum riv csu edu au
comp.graphics	re tiff anything in article apr yang earlham edu joshuaf yang earlham edu writes are there any tiff to anything programs out there for the ibm our scanner works into tiff and i can view it on cshow but all of my other programs read errors are there any basic tiff to jpeg gif pcx bmp etc try winjpeg on oak oakland edu pub msdos windows winjp zip it has more tiff support than graphics workshop it also converts to all the above formats ken
comp.graphics	re d widget wish list what i d like to see is the more generic n dimensional widget set i realize that there wouldn t be a whole shitload of people who d want more than but why stop all i need is a widget with up to n viewports showing me different d or d slices of my stuff alter pat pat ritcsh csh rit edu paf ritvax rit edu paflecke spectrum xerox com all objects are macroscopic invisible non physical or otherwise non heisenbergish fuck the cat me
comp.graphics	rgb hls hsv conversion routines wanted hi i m looking for rgb cube hls double hexcone hsv cylinder conversion routines i have rgb hsv but miss the hls rgb hsv please e mail me directly as i do not get this newsgroup at my site any and all help wil be greatly appreciated gert o gert bultman bultman dgw rws nl phone o snail rijkswaterstaat dienst getijdewateren afd aoct o o o mail postbus ex the hague the netherlands o o o o please mark all personal mail persoonlijk o
comp.graphics	re ds where did all the texture rules go eric vitiello tfd coplex com eric vitiello writes to rych festival ed ac uk r hawkes rh i ve noticed that if you only save a model with all your mapping planes rh positioned carefully to a ds file that when you reload it after restarting rh ds they are given a default position and orientation but if you save rh to a prj file their positions orientation are preserved does anyone rh know why this information is not stored in the ds file nothing is this is because the prj project format saves all of your settings right down to the last render file s name rh i d like to be able to read the texture rule information does anyone have rh the format for the prj file sorry don t have anything on that or the cel format well i dived in feet first and reverse engineered the prj file as much as i needed to extracted the mapping icon information which is when it dawned on me that d studio is useless for my needs i need a mapping icon per applied texture i want to use a special purpose graphics computer for rendering the ds models and it requires a texture rule plane to be specified in space i e position orientation of the mapping rule since only one mapping icon is used in ds to apply textures to all objects faces it renders no pun intended ds totally unsuitable for my needs anyone got a contact for alias upfront or any other good modeller for a pc i must be able to specify texture rules one per texture and this must be saved in a file which i can read i haven t found any info on alias in the copy of the faq that i have rych
comp.graphics	sw convert plot to ascii file i am looking for software that reads a plot in pcx or other format and converts it into x y coordinate
comp.graphics	best ftp viewer please could someone please tell me the best ftp able viewer available for msdos i am running a mhz with svga monitor i need to look at gifs mainly and it would be advantageous if it ran under windows thanks
comp.graphics	rgb to hvs and back i have a little question i need to convert rgb coded red green blue colors into hvs coded hue value saturnation colors does anyone know which formulas to use thanks r w hartog remcoha solist htsa aha nl
comp.graphics	re wanted bit viewer in article seti inria fr deniaud cartoon inria fr gilles deniaud writes thanks to the people who helped me with the problem of displaying bit images all the viewers like xli xloadimage and display are converting the bit images to bit before display them on the screen what i really want is a viewer with make use of the bit frame screen buffer in our case the parallax one try imagemagick i cannot test it but one told me it does bit anyway are you sure your xserver supports bit truecolor visuals check with xdpyinfo o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.graphics	comp graphics research i have not seen articles in comp graphics research for a long time does it he work anymore i have seen many conference related postings in comp graphics and it is hard to believe that people have not tried to post them to c g research if somebody has not got his article to comp graphics research then write to me or post here juhana kouhia
comp.graphics	polaroid palette system does anyone have any information on the polaroid palette system it appears to be a gadget for transfering graphics images to film does anyone have any detail about it like the maximum supported resolution or types of video input what did polaroid market them as fletch all irregularities will be handled by the forces controlling each dimension trans uranic heavy elements may not be used where there is life medium atomic weights are available gold lead copper jet diamond radium sapphire silver and steel sapphire and steel have been assigned
comp.graphics	re tiff anything there is a program called graphic workshop you can ftp from wuarchive the file is in the msdos graphics directory and is called grfwk t zip this program should od everthing you need tmc tmc spartan ac brocku ca could you be more specific i need that file too but couldn t find it amongst all the directories at wuarchive page z nixsp ccsvax sfasu edu
comp.graphics	monthly lightwave mailing list faq lightwave d mail list what is lightwave lightwave d is part of a suite of programs that come bundled with a device called the toaster from newtek inc that operates on an amiga platform the lightwave software lightwave lightwave d and lightwave modeler allows and artist to create three dimensional photo realistic images for a variety of purposes why are we doing this this mailing list is for those interested in the lightwave software how it operates and in ideas on how to obtain the best quality images available to them the list is for those who own the toaster and lightwave as well as those just interested in what can be done with the package we hope to share information tips procedures and to bond as a group what are the rules since lightwave modeler are just a part of the newtek video toaster software i m sure we will discuss a few items related to the operation of the toaster however we will strive to keep the subject revolving specifically around the d software related tools and products you do not have to own a toaster to join this list ok how do i join to become a member of the lightwave d mailing list you must send a mail message to the address lightwave request bobsbox rent com in the body of the message enter subscribe lightwave l your name your site domain or just ask to be signed up and i will sign you up to the list at this point in time the process is manual but i hope to get an automated script based system in place soon there shouldn t be too much of a delay in joining expect a welcome message within days after you send your request then expect the mail to start flowing in how do i post to the list contributing to the list is simple just mail your articles to the following address lightwave bobsbox rent com your article will be processed by the system and distributed to all others joined to the list your articles will also be sent to you so you know that your article has made it to the list however those addresses that are either no good or no longer active will bounce back to you so if you post an article and another members address is no longer valid your original article will be returned to you this doesn t mean it hasn t been posted to the list in fact just the opposite is true it means that your article was posted and that it couldn t be sent to one or more of the members of the list due to a bad address note i hope to have a fix for this behavior soon how do i quit the list simply mail a request to be removed from the list to the same address you used to sign up lightwave request bobsbox rent com in the body of the message enter unsubscribe lightwave l your name your site domain i will remove your name from the list of members please if you join the list and your account is going to be closed or if you will not be able to receive mail for a while send a request to be removed from the list if you are just going to lose access for a short while still send a request for a suspension of your membership and i will suspend forwarding of the articles to you what about old articles i am currently archiving all the articles posted to the list at the originating site bobsbox however i can not continue to do this due to lack of disk space what we need is a volunteer that will maintain a compendium of articles sent to the list they can compress and store them in archives on their system they can then periodically post an index of the contents of the compendium and any other information that relates if there are no volunteers then maybe someone can donate a large scsi hard drive to me for archival purposes grin i have setup a mail based file server so that anyone interested in the list can obtain information as well as the entire archive of past articles the membership listing and other information pertaining to the lightwave d mailing list for information on this service please send a mail message to fileserver bobsbox rent com the first command to the server must be help or user name passwd use help to request a current copy of the helpfile use user name passwd to connect to the service use to get a short listing of all available commands now what do i do well sit back and enjoy the pouring out of information if you have something to offer please feel free to contribute that information to the list every little bit helps questions are welcomed it makes some of us feel important when we can answer them grin if you have any questions or comments regarding the list please contact me at the address lightwave admin bobsbox rent com cheers bob lindabury
comp.graphics	your one stop graphics shop t h e g r a p h i c s b b s rent com it s better than a sharp stick in the eye andy meyer we are pleased to announce that we have just upgraded our system to a new hayes ultra v bis v bis modem that will allow connections from bps up to bps featuring o a graphics specific system for those of you interested in such things as d graphics image processing animation clip art and the latest in public domain graphics programs o graphics specific mailing lists such as imagine d dctv and lightwave d mailing lists aliased to easy to read forums which you can join and read many more to come o free usenet access and free netmail to sites all over the world the ability to contact software hardware developers right at their mainframes just by sending them netmail from the graphics bbs not to mention your kids at college or your parents from college with our quick connections and reliable links you can have your mail sent around the world in a matter of minutes o a unique conference bulletin section the abilty to join and keep track of only the conferences that you enjoy the ability to read in files from your own personal file area for use in messages also with proper access you can create your own conference and moderate it o newsfeeds from usenet that include topics such as graphics mac amiga ibm science erotica ham radio star trek scuba diving programmers forums game designers forums and cyberspace forums o the most sophisticated but easy to learn and use mail system ever created for a pc you can easily read your mail delete it or move it to your personal directory for storage and reply to it you can attach files to your mail and send it to another member a smart sendmail feature ensures accurate addressing of netmail o ability to send mail and messages to arpanet usenet internet bitnet and any of the networks that interface with them around the world such as fidonet peoplenet and the uucp network of university and research facility systems o a file library containing downloads for most popular computers featuring an easy to learn and use system the library features master directory listing newscan and search capabilities as well as complete archived file listings the file library supports most popular transfer protocols such as x y z modem as well as advance protocols such as hs link and bi modem the file library also doubles as a file server for users from other sites all around the world o complete control over your environment you select whether you want hot key control menus more prompting etc you can define your cancel key and choose your terminal emulation you can also edit your personal login script to do what you want it to do o online games global war jet combat simulator etc new games to be added o online manual and extensive help facilities complete tracking of online usage time o megabytes of storage the graphics bbs currently runs on an ibm at at mhz with meg of ram meg ide drive call the graphics bbs at baud hours a day everyday system administator bob lindabury bobl graphics rent com
comp.graphics	re dxf to pcx gif tif or tga in murashiea mail beckman com murashiea mail beckman com ed murashie writes does anyone know of a program for the pc that will take autocad dxf format files and convert them to a raster format like pcx gif etc thanks in advance ed i m also interested in such a program but most of all i d like to know wich program is able to convert gif or pcx to dxf when i have this program i can scan pictures and frase or something like that them this will be beyond the limit roderick
comp.graphics	ntsc data to rgb for video capture does anyone know how to decode the color information of a ntsc signal i need to convert this data to rgb for a video capture utility i am writing for use with an ibm m motion video adapter card i need to know the how the v and u signals work in the color process thanks in advance for any information or algorythms etc later hammonck net
comp.graphics	re best ftp viewer please situnaya ibm bham ac uk wrote could someone please tell me the best ftp able viewer available for msdos i am running a mhz with svga monitor i need to look at gifs mainly and it would be advantageous if it ran under windows thanks ftp to wuarchive wustl edu change into mirrors msdos graphics get grfwk t zip this is the dos version of graphic workshop there is a windows version which you could probably find in the mirrors msdos windows directory but i don t know what the file name is tmc tmc spartan ac brocku ca
comp.graphics	re turning photographic images into thermal print and or negatives jennifer lynn urso ju andrew cmu edu wrote well i have lots of experience with scanning in images and altering them as for changing them back into negatives is that really possible stuff deleted jennifer urso the oh so bitter woman of utter blahness but cheerful undertones i use aldus photostyler on the pc and i can turn a colour or black and white image into a negative or turn a negative into a colour or black and white image i don t know how it does it but it works well to test it i scanned a negative and used aldus to create a positive it looked better than the print that the film developers gave me tmc tmc spartan ac brocku ca
comp.graphics	interesting conversion problem i have a very large x feet file in macintosh canvas v something which i need to import into autocad in the least disk space intensive way possible i e eps is a big problem since it took meg to encode one page of the document the file is entirely lines and words i have access to networked macs pc s and ftp can anyone suggest how this might be accomplished email replies if you would i don t read this group much thanks in advance daniel alt case western reserve university cleveland oh help me i don t have ulcers i m a carrier i can t see you so don t pretend to be i don t like spreading rumors but what else can you do with them there i don t practice what i preach because i m not the kind of person i preach to
comp.graphics	re human head modeling software in article c wbp k taurus cs nps navy mil adaptive cs nps navy mil zyda res acct writes hi there i am interested in facial animation and want to implement some program about this area but i don t have any d information for the face i am looking for some d images of face try getting the cyberware demo via ftp which contains d images of the face what is the copyright status of this data are there restrictions regarding the uses they can be put to kaveh kaveh kardan kardank ere umontreal ca
comp.graphics	looking for hot mac d anim software i am interested in finding d animation programs for the mac i am especially interested in any programs that don t exist in a pc port and are so good that they would make me go buy a mac do any such exist thanks in advance
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of silly in c wd w bqs skates gsfc nasa gov xrcjd mudpuppy gsfc nasa gov charles j divine writes in article r lf fu geraldo cc utexas edu mark a cartwright markc emx utexas edu writes of course the question has not yet been discovered but the question was later revealed to be what is x in the base system of course if you read the last couple of books in the series closely well and at least there are at least two points at which the real question is implied conversations proceed much like zaphod what is the ultimate question i wonder arthur not paying much attention to zaphod but needing a random seed for the infinite improbability drive think of a number any number actually it may be marvin who uses this phrase a few times as well and everytime it s arranged such that think of a number any number could be an answer to someone s question about the question i kind of like it very mystifying it s not even pick a number or tell me a number just think of one kevin martin sigma rahul net use the flipper
comp.graphics	re geosphere image in article apr news nd edu rmalayte grumpy helios nd edu ryan malayter writes does anyone know if a digitized version of the geosphere image is available via ftp for those of you who don t know it is a composite photograph of the entire earth with cloudcover removed i just think it s really cool it was created with government funds and sattelites as a research project so i would assume it s in the public domain thanks for any info ryan i have a copy of the earth from space on my wall that i purchased from space shots inc la ca as printed on the poster the image was created by tom van sant and the geosphere project the image is copyrighted so i doubt that you ll find it legally in the public domain part of the proceeds from the sale of the image go to the geosphere project an environmental education thing and the cost is nominal so crack a and buy one also i don t think it s always safe to assume that just because the government funded a project any products will be provided for free many government agencies nasa noaa and some private groups national geographic provided assistance to the geosphere project this collaboration seems to be mostly oriented to educating the public rather than pure research dr thomas trusk dept of cellular biology anatomy email to ttrusk its mcw edu medical college of wisconsin milwaukee wi disclaimer i have no affiliation with any of the above mentioned groups this is just my opinion not a flame or advertisement where am i who turned off the lights what s that funny noise i feel strange aaauuugggghhhhh
comp.graphics	re i donwloaded a bin file from a unix machine now what niko iastate edu nikolaus e schuessler writes in article matess gsusgi gsu edu matess gsusgi gsu edu eliza strickler writes i just donwloaded a bin file from a unix machine which is supposed to be converted to a mac format does anyone know what i need to do to this file to get it into any dos mac or unix readable format someone mentioned fetch on the unix machine is this correct could someone explain the bin format a little this is almost certainly a macbinary file which is an encoded version of a mac file so the resource fork and data fork get preserved you need a program that converts this to a regular file if this is a macbinary file you may have downloaded it in text mode and is probably corrupt if you did if you re using ftp to transfer it at any point make sure you type binary first if you can open the file with a text editor and find this file must be converted with bin at the top it is a binhex file and can be decoded with binhex among other programs i opened the file with a text editor and it looks like vnetwork storyboardpictpict bim e i have already tried binhex which does not seem to work any other ideas niko schuessler project vincent systems manager email niko iastate edu iowa state university computation center voice ames ia snail durham elizabeth strickler matess gsusgi gsu edu
comp.graphics	re hpgl viewer and utilities in article apr music mus polymtl ca gaetan lord ecole polytechnique de montreal dg music mus polymtl ca writes hi i would like to know if there is any software pd or not who could produce x output of hpgl file on rs and same kind of software who could produce hardcopy on postscript and lasetjet try export lcs mit edu i think that there is a viewer there called xviewgl check the readme in contrib bill woodward wpwood austin ibm com try this first aix software support billw aixwiz austin ibm com graphics group i am the terror that flaps in the night
comp.graphics	gif to targa hello subject says it all i need a gif to targa converter so that my dta could make a fli of them krzysztof
comp.graphics	re viewing jpeg files in apr ucbeh san uc edu lwilson ucbeh san uc edu writes can i view jpeg files without special hardware lucy wilson access services librarian college of engineering university of cincinnati yup most jpeg viewers seem to require specific video drivers since they support only specific video cards some have the standard ibm bios video support for the vga x colour mode but they leave out the other cards such as the hercules monochrome card which by the way can give very good picture quality if your dithering works right i can t remember the name of a jpeg viewer since i usually convert jpeg s to gif s before viewing them but some require vesa driver for the video cards you don t need any special hardware to view jpeg s except perhaps for a vga card and maybe a processor most people these days program for computers and neglect the rest of the processors i have a clone a nec v processor and a hercules card i have had to write some programs so that they will view gif s and animations for the vga and other colour graphics boards on my monochrome hercules card i use floyd steinberg dithers and have found that if one does something neat with the colour palette the resulting dithered image gives much greater detail than it normally would when viewed on other monochrome systems compushow has fs dithering but it does the standard thing with the image palette before dithering my way gives a brighter more detailed image anyway enough of my rambling in the wrong direction the final point is as far as i know you don t need extra hardware to view jpeg s other than the vga and perhaps a or better have a day gerry
comp.graphics	corel draw or harvard draw my wife wants to publish a newsletter she s no artist so she intends to use comercial clipart and customise it a bit by drawing a circle or a box around it etc we have mspublisher for manipulating text but it is not suitable for doing much with graphics so she needs a more specialised tool right now she s looking at corel draw and harvard draw there seem to be more books in the stores on corel than on harvard so she s inclined to go with corel on the basis of popularity can anyone give us an informed opinion on which package would be more suitable or if there is an even better alternative available if this is a faq please withhold the flames and just send the location of the faq document thanks three ps s is it ok to use clip art from harvard draw or whatever for commercial purposes we have a dpi laser jet printer what would be a good scanner for reading in paper clipart how about someone starting up a newsgroup on desktop publishing if one doesn t exist
comp.graphics	real time visualization hello i am interested to hear from people working in the field of visual simulation ie driving simulation flight simulation etc would be very pleased to see what is going on in the field of research and industrial development for those of you interested as well there is a workshop preferedly held in german situated in wuppertal november specially related to the above topic the title sichtsysteme visualisierung in der simulationstechnik complete details are available please contact me r moeller rmoe welfag elektro uni wuppertal de
comp.graphics	re geosphere image rmalayte grumpy helios nd edu ryan malayter writes article of alt graphics newsgroups alt graphics path news nd edu moliere rmalayte from rmalayte moliere helios nd edu ryan malayter subject geosphere images via ftp message id apr news nd edu sender news news nd edu usenet news system organization university of notre dame notre dame date mon apr gmt does anyone know if a digitized version of the geosphere image is available via ftp for those of you who don t know it is a composite photograph of the entire earth with cloudcover removed i just think it s really cool it was created with government funds and sattelites as a research project so i would assume it s in the public domain this image is copyrighted early in another news group it was being used as a texture map in a planet orbiting simulation that program was being freely distributed but the texture map picture for the earth had to be pulled because of copyright infringement issues mp michael prevost sterling software moffett field ca prevost eos arc nasa gov
comp.graphics	re kubota kenai denali specs in article rkntjinnd no names nerdc ufl edu lioness maple circa ufl edu writes okay i got enough replies about the kubota kenai denali systems that i will post a summary of their capabilities graphics transform modules frame buffer modules frame buffer x x bit x x bit double buffered double buffered z buffer bit bit alpha stencil bit bit does this mean they can either do alpha or stenciling but not both simultaneously stereo support yes yes other both machines will double buffer or do stereo output per window both have an auxiliary video output that is rs a ntsc and pal same question again does this mean they can either do double buffering or stereo but not both simultaneously paul pmartz dsd es com evans sutherland
comp.graphics	re help need bits viewer in article apr nessie mcc ac uk lilley v cgu mcc ac uk chris lilley writes in article seti inria fr deniaud cartoon inria fr gilles deniaud writes i m looking for a program which is able to display bits images we are using a sun sparc equipped with parallax graphics board running x utah raster toolkit using getx convert your sun raster files presumably to ppm with the pbm toolkit then convert ppm to utah rle format with ppmtorle which is provided in the toolkit or just use the urt tool rastorle i seem to remember that xloadimage can do bit servers too yes both it and the newer xli can wes barris ph minnesota supercomputer center inc email wes msc edu
comp.graphics	re wanted bit viewer in article seti inria fr deniaud cartoon inria fr gilles deniaud writes hello thanks to the people who helped me with the problem of displaying bit images all the viewers like xli xloadimage and display are converting the bit images to bit before display them on the screen what i really want is a viewer with make use of the bit frame screen buffer in our case the parallax one both xli and xloadimage will display in bit color if a bit visual is available check the output of xdpyinfo to see if one is wes barris ph minnesota supercomputer center inc email wes msc edu
comp.graphics	cga help wanted hi there i m looking for help on hi rez cga modes hey i know it sounds crazy but at the moment it s got to do my card s manual says it does something like by colour and by colour the card has k memory could anyone give me some help on how to implement these modes assembly language is fine any other usefull tips on the cga regs will also help thanx in advance frans my email is leander up ac za
comp.graphics	what has happened to dkb l trearn hello i ve been on the dkbtrace povray mailing list out of trearn bitnet for some time now but when i tried to post the other day the listserv told me that the list doesn t exist so i got a global list of groups from the listserv and nothing i grepped every string i could think of if frank ville saari andre beck or anyone else who s a regular on dkb l can tell me what is going on please do regards david k drum uc mizzou missouri edu
comp.graphics	tangent vectors of kochanek bartels splines i m working on a system which uses a given set of d key frame positions x y z to control an imaginary camera movement i m using kochanek bartels splines as described in the siggraph proceedings to create a variable number of inbetweens between the key frames i want the inbetweens to be given in the form x y z dx dy dz where the last three argumentsa are the x y and z component of the viewing direction vector of the camera when positioned at x y z the method presented by kochanek and bartels only deals with the positions of the inbetween view points to be generated i ve tried to set the viewing direction at a view point equal to the chord between the two adjacent view points which in general are not key frames but this causes a sligt discontinuity of the viewing direction vector at the key frame positions although the spatial movement seems to work fine and i m quite certain i think that i ve not simply made an implementation error now i wonder if anyone out there has used this spline form for similar purposes and how they decided the viewing vectors i d appreciate replies to be emailed to me at iharkest lise unit no anyone else interested in the answer will be sent a summary of the replies if they contact me n g e a r k e s t a d iharkest lise unit no comp sc nth norwegian institute of technology some people play hard to get i play hard to want ford fairlane
comp.graphics	re need help z buffering lines areas together david gorgen writes i m asking for help on a sticky problem involving unreasonably low apparent precision in z buffering that i ve encountered in different pex implementations i can t find any discussion of this problem in any resources i can lay hands on e g the comp windows x pex faq gaskins s pexlib programming manual vendors documentation the problem to be solved is to eliminate or minimize stitching artifacts resulting from the use of z buffering with polylines that are coplanar with filled areas the interpolated z values along a line will differ slightly due to roundoff error from the interpolated z values across an area even when the endpoints of the line are coincident with vertices of the area because of this it s a tossup whether the z buffer will allow the line pixels or the area pixels to be displayed visually the result tends to be a dashed line effect even though the line is supposed to be solid using the pexlib api my approach to a solution is to use two slightly different pex view mapping transforms in two view table entries one for the areas and one for the lines the pex structures or immediate mode output must be organized so that one view table index is always in effect for areas and the other is always in effect for lines the result is a slight shift in npc z coordinates for the lines so as to attempt to bias the tossup situations in favor of the lines this shift is effected by moving the front and back clipping planes used in the pexlib view table entry for lines just a hair backwards i e smaller vrc z coordinates compared to their positions in the view table entry used for areas this means that when a point is transformed to npc its z value will be slightly bigger if it comes from a line than if it comes from an area thus accomplishing the desired bias i would expect the z roundoff errors which cause the problem to amount to a few units at most out of the entire dynamic range of the z buffer typically from to if not i e or bit z buffers therefore it seems that a tiny fraction of the range of z in vrc between the front and back clip planes ought to suffice to reliably fix the stitching but in fact experience shows that the shift has to be as much as to of the range empirically it s worst when the npc z component of the slope of the surface is high i e when it appears more or less edge on to the viewer it s as if only or bits of the z buffer have any dependable meaning this amount is so great that one problem is replaced by another sometimes the polylines show through areas which they are supposed to lie behind i ve observed the problem on both hewlett packard and digital workstation pex servers to approximately the same degree the test program demonstrates the problem on an mit pexlib x implementation this version is known to compile and run on an hp ux system with pex open questions why does this happen am i configuring the pex view table wrongly is there a systematic difference in z interpolation for lines as opposed to areas e g pixel centers versus corners which could be corrected for are pex implementors wantonly discarding z precision in their interpolators something else what to do about it can i fix my use of the view table to allow better precision in z buffered hlhsr is there another approach i can take to remove the stitching artifacts am i just out of luck we here at ibm have the same problem with our workstations i was also shocked when i first realized that you have to offset lines from fills by about bits assuming bit z buffer this seems huge but is only of the dynamic range in those terms it doesn t seem so bad what is happening is that the interpolation in z is not totally linear due mainly to roundoff i believe so the polygon is not planar in z but is more like a ruffles potato chip ditto with lines when you start end at different x y values the ridges are out of phase resulting in the stitch effect you have the same problem if you try to draw polygon right on top of another but with different vertices you will likely see a smeared effect where they overlap example try polygon polygon your implementation is correct in fact we do a similar trick when rendering primitives that have lines and polygons such as nurbs surfaces with isoparametric lines without the trick the lines appear stitched as you say when the application draws lines polygons independently the system does not have the smarts to automatically do the z shifting so the application must do it this is what you have discovered and are doing bravo note to ibm ers the information given here has been previously disclosed through proper channels so i m not giving away any new unpublished info mark einkauf einkauf austin ibm com ibm advanced workstations and systems graphics systems austin tx views and opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of ibm corp
comp.graphics	virtual sound i m looking for algorithms or articles on virtual sound what i want to do is the following from a fast source eg a cdrom several sound sources are read each having it s own defined position and other attributes eg direction etc given the listeners position and direction the sum of sound played back in each of the listeners earphones will be a function of this position and direction this means that some simulation of the ears coloring of sound relative to it s incoming direction have to be done for each sound source i think this is possible to do with a lookup table of impulse responses for several angles relative to each ear and interpolate an impulse function from this for a given angle this impulse function could then be convoluted with the sound from the source this impulse function must be changed every time some sound source changes position or the listener changes orientation additionally some reflection diffusion and absorbtion due to the environment wich is defined could be simulated but this requires some sort of sound propagandation simulation kinda like some radiosity algorithm have someone done this and or written articles on implementing such a system please post or mail any answers or comments torgeir veimo studying at the university of bergen i m gona wave my freak flag high jimi hendrix and it would be okay on any other day the police
comp.graphics	re turning photographic images into thermal print and or negatives jennifer lynn urso ju andrew cmu edu writes also if anyone else is doing what i am planning i would be happy to hear from you with any advice you might provide as to the computer system you use and or any peripherals or software it seemed the quadra would be my best bet to modify photographic images i am planning on buying a quadra with megs of ram a meg hard drive a dpi scanner sony monitor and a meg cartridge drive and perhaps a cd rom i am new to computers and any advice would be great well i have lots of experience with scanning in images and altering them as for changing them back into negatives is that really possible scanning and altering is no big deal i don t know what types of features you have in your version of photoshop but the one i use which incidentally is on a quadra has gallery effects and all types of other neato stuff i m just wondering why you would want to put your images back into negatives because once you print the image out that s your print do you know what exactly your aim is in all of this like are you doing this just for fun for a business to gain more computer knowledge for a project you re working on otherwise i guess i don t know if i d be helping or not by posting info on scanning and stuff ok cool seeya jennifer urso the oh so bitter woman of utter blahness but cheerful undertones it is for a business and the end product has to be a photograph i take damaged black and whites usually old some very and repair them by hand at present i would like to do this by using a computer i am just trying to find a vendor who can convert my computer stored images to negatives or thermal print the customer will want his her copy as much as possible like a brand new original photgraph david ps thanks to all of you who have sent me information it was very helpful in my learning about computers combined with photography if anyone else has any information i would be grateful
comp.graphics	re kubota kenai denali specs in article apr dsd es com pmartz dsd es com paul martz writes does this mean they can either do alpha or stenciling but not both simultaneously i don t know the answer the to this one although with bits i would assume that it was one or the other stereo support yes yes other both machines will double buffer or do stereo output per window both have an auxiliary video output that is rs a ntsc and pal same question again does this mean they can either do double buffering or stereo but not both simultaneously according to the literature it will do quadruple buffering so that you can have double buffered stereo output brian
comp.graphics	gif to wpg or tiff converter i am looking for an available program that would convert gif files to other formats usable on dos based software such as wordperfect presentations which will handle wpg and tiff among others any suggestions would be appreciated thank you very much for your time and help steve alford novavax nova edu steve alford nova university college avenue ft lauderdale fl uucp gatech uflorida ucf cs novavax alford internet alford novavax nova edu
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of silly it s the number of legs on a centipede so now you know richard kirk image processing group crosfield electronics ltd u k rak crosfield co uk x hemel hempstead herts hp rh
comp.graphics	genoa s windowsvga true color board for immediate release editorial contact single source marketing myra manahan genoa systems joseph brunoli neil roehm technical genoa presents high performance video graphics accelerator san jose calif usa genoa systems corporation announces windowsvga a true color bit graphics accelerator card that delivers up to million colors at speeds faster than the competition plus it offers a full range of resolutions high refresh rates as well as unique proprietary performance features the card is available in both bit isa bus and bit vesa local bus versions models and vl with mb dram on board the windowsvga card offers maximum resolution up to x and supports a refresh rate of hz at x and resolution up to x non interlaced both models provide performance many times greater than standard svga boards yet conform to all current video standards windowsvga features genoa s flickerfree tm technology which eliminates screen flash and flicker to make viewing much more comfortable the cards also come with safescan tm a utility developed by genoa to eliminate the black border around the screen and thereby provide percent screen use for overscanning monitors windowsvga model vl takes full advantage of the speed offered by the new vesa local bus technology most vl bus cards will only handle data transfers up to mhz but the vl will transfer data at the full speed of the cpu up to mhz genoa is also offering this card in the turbobahn combination packaged with their turboexpress vl motherboard built around the cirrus logic gd gui accelerator windowsvga offers the user an exceptional price performance value genoa s advanced proprietary drivers act to turbocharge the chip thereby providing an affordable accelerator card with power and performance that surpass many of the more highly priced chip cards the genoa user will enjoy optimal speed and reliability for such programs as windows autocad autoshade d studio os orcad and more driver updates and product bulletins are available on genoa s bbs at genoa systems manufactures and markets an extensive line of graphics adapters motherboards audio and multimedia cards for ibm compatible personal computers all products come with a two year limited warranty on parts and labor genoa products are currently distributed worldwide through authorized distributors resellers vars and systems integrators for more information contact joe brunoli marketing manager genoa systems at e trimble road san jose calif tel or fax stefan hartmann stefanh rahul net
comp.graphics	looking for patches to xv to better support tiff output recently we have found tiff manipulation packages which do not recognize tiff files output by xv this is due to a missing xresolution and yresolution tag which apparently is required or at least believed to be required for valid tiff i have checked both xv x and xv x and neither of these do indeed copy these tags has anyone out there hacked in the fixes for xv to support these tags i have been told that i could find some code in tiff tools tiffcp c but that directory is one of many of the tiff group not distributed with xv i hope to obtain the original tiff src and look at it but would prefer to find code already known to work in xv s s larry w virden inet lvirden cas org s personal falls place reynoldsburg oh
comp.graphics	pc paint program neopaint v help i am looking for a shareware graphics package called neopaint v i saw it in a shareware catalog and was hoping that i could ftp it from the net but have been unable to locate it i have tried archie and i have gone through the entire comp graphics newsgroup looking for some reference to it and have found none i have also looked through the faq and also no reference the program is called neopaint v and if anyone has heard of it or knows where i can get it i would appreciate it suggestions for other pc based shareware paint programs would also be appreciated email me your responses much thanks sean
comp.graphics	re sigkids research showcase call it was brought to my attention that there was an oversight in the sigkids research showcase call for participation and entry form please note that the sigkids research showcase is part of siggraph august anaheim california thank you diane schwartz sigkids committee member institute for the learning sciences maple avenue suite evanston illinois schwartz ils nwu edu
comp.graphics	d widget wish list i am very interested in hearing from all of you who are using or implementing d interactive applications what types of d widgets you would like to have in your applications a d widget is usually located in the same scene as other d objects of the application it may let you manipulate application data the camera d objects in the scene and so on or view the status of the application or d objects via the widget s shape color position orientation and so on or do whatever i missed but you think is possible for example a manipulative widget can be virtual trackball shown as a partially transparent sphere super imposed on the object to be rotated a feedback widget can be a ruler with ends anchored to objects the length of the ruler changes as the objects move and a numeric value is shown on the ruler indicating the distance a widget can provide both manipulation and feedback for example the ruler can be used to change the distance between the objects along its own axis please e mail me or post your opinions on d interaction the information i gathered will help me design a d ui construction tool your help is very much appreciated tony lau tlau cs ubc ca m sc student dept of computer science
comp.graphics	re kubota kenai denali specs lioness maple circa ufl edu okay i got enough replies about the kubota kenai denali systems that i will post a summary of their capabilities graphics transform modules frame buffer modules frame buffer x x bit x x bit double buffered double buffered z buffer bit bit alpha stencil bit bit pmartz dsd es com paul martz does this mean they can either do alpha or stenciling but not both simultaneously lioness maple circa ufl edu stereo support yes yes other both machines will double buffer or do stereo output per window both have an auxiliary video output that is rs a ntsc and pal pmartz dsd es com paul martz same question again does this mean they can either do double buffering or stereo but not both simultaneously for both these questions it s an inclusive or alpha plus stencil is supported they re separate as is double buffered stereo steve hollasch kubota pacific computer inc hollasch kpc com santa clara california barbie had it right math is hard
comp.graphics	phigs user group conference first annual phigs user group conference the first annual phigs user group conference was held march in orlando florida the conference was organized by the rensse laer design research center in co operation with ieee and sig graph attendees came from five countries spanning three con tinents a good cross section of the phigs community was represented at this conference with participants including phigs users workstation vendors third party phigs implementors stan dards committee members and researchers from industry and academia the opening speaker dr richard puk challenged phigs users to take charge of your phigs by participating in phigs standardization activities and communicating their needs to phigs implementors the closing speaker dr andries van dam described his vision of the future of graphics standards beyond phigs technical paper sessions in the conference covered the following topics phigs and x application toolkits application issues texture mapping nurbs phigs extensions and object oriented libraries and frameworks panel sessions on phigs and pex phigs non retained data real world cad applications using phigs and portability issues generated enthusiastic discussions and formed a good forum for exchange of ideas needs and experiences the conference also included a day full of tutorials on topics rang ing from mathematics for d graphics to object oriented tools based on phigs next year s conference is planned for march phigs everywhere at the conference phigs vendors described and demonstrated phigs products that run on all types of computers from pcs to mainframes megatek corporation demonstrated their phigs extensions including conditional traversal composite logical input devices texturing and translucency template graphics software launched figaro pro the photo realistic option for phigs figaro pro is designed to add advanced rendering to the existing phigs api with features like ray tracing materials anti aliasing and texture mapping radiosity support is also planned figaro is an example of how tgs continues to add newly emerging graphics features to their products figaro supports immediate mode extensions to phigs and also supports sun xgl hp starbase and sgi gl opengl figaro for nt will be released this summer tgs also demonstrated the latest versions of figraph a powerful call charting system based on phigs and figt an object oriented utility library for phigs pex developers g g and gallium software demonstrated a new version of gphigs on silicon graphics workstations scheduled for summer ver sion of gphigs the company s phigs library for worksta tions will include an advanced phigs debugger that allows phigs developers to display and browse phigs structures and other phigs internal state g g also described their non duplicated data store that stores pointers to application data in the gphigs css for more efficient use of memory in addition g g described their application gse that allows application callback functions during gphigs traversal gphigs and phigure g g s data visual izer and application development toolkit are currently available on all major workstations that support gl x windows pex or starbase wise software presented a slide show of z phigs for ms windows and arena a phigs based modeller render z phigs implements most of the phigs primitives in addition z phigs has built in many advanced rendering features like texture mapping shadow genera tion area quick updates and ray tracing a demo disk of z phigs or arena is available on request atc exhibited grafpak phigs their full featured phigs implemen tation based on dec phigs grafpak phigs is available on most workstation platforms with c fortran and ada bindings and incor porates pex support within the booth sponsored by advanced technology center digital equipment corporation demonstrated dec phigs v running on the dec axp pxg atcs grafpak phigs is a port of dec phigs dec phigs v contains most phigs and phigs plus features with support for pex v protocol dec phigs also contains most gm eds phigs extensions including post to view as well as proprietary extensions to support immediate mode rendering and the use of phigs in an x environment axp dec and dec phigs are trademarks of digital equipment cor poration grafpak phigs and atc are trademarks of advanced tech nology center pex and x are trademarks of massachusetts insti tute of technology the ibm exhibit featured a gto accelerator attached to an ibm workstation running graphigs and pex hewlett packard and shographics demonstrated at the conference a hewlett packard machine was coupled to display on a shographics pex terminal hp showcased their latest phigs product enhance ments phigs user group the phigs users group was formed to aid the development of phigs applications and provide user feedback to phigs implementors and phigs standards bodies for more information about the phigs users group send e mail to phigsug cadrt me vt edu or write to sankar jayaram virginia polytechnic institute randolph hall blacksburg va fax vendor contacts megatek corporation tel fax template graphics software tel fax wise software gmbh tel fax g g north american sales tel fax advanced technology center tel fax digital equipment corporation tel international business machines corporation tel hewlett packard company tel copies of the conference proceedings copies of the conference proceedings may be obtained by contact ing mary johnson at johnson mary design and manufacturing institute rensselaer polytechnic institute eighth street building cii room troy ny tel fax email mjohnson rdrc rpi edu the cost is per binder
comp.graphics	parametric variational design hi everyone i am looking for papers articels books or any other source of information about parametric variational design in cad solid modeling any suggetions references would be greatly appreaciated thanks in advance jayesh patel enuxha eas asu edu ip no
comp.graphics	an very broad question i am considering creating a demo for the ibm pc for my band i would like to combine interesting graphics and a sample of my music in the program i have seen things like this done for other platforms and even a few for the pc but since i m completly new to this i have no idea wher to start i m pretty sure that i am not skilled enough to put this together but i was hoping that you collectivly could a let me know what issues i need to worry about things i should take into consideration when developing the concept b perhaps someone knows of a programmer artist who would be interested in this type of a project i know these are rather broad questions but any information would be most helpful thanks gregory winer an po cwru edu
comp.graphics	re rgb to hvs and back in article apr htsa aha nl remcoha htsa aha nl remco hartog writes i have a little question i need to convert rgb coded red green blue colors into hvs coded hue value saturnation colors does anyone know which formulas to use i have a little answer see foley van dam feiner and hughes computer graphics principles and practice second edition if people would read this book percent of the questions in this froup would disappear overnight spl steve lamont sciviguy spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource uc san diego la jolla ca my other car is a car too bumper strip seen on i
comp.graphics	gif viewer source code for pc does anyone know where i could get some source code for a gif viewer on a pc it doesn t have to be fancy it would be best if it were written in c to display gif pictures on a vga screen i was hoping to get it for free from an ftp site but i haven t been able to find it yet david lau davidla ecs comm mot com
comp.graphics	final call for papers call for papers progress in neural networks special volume on shape analysis omid m omidvar minsoo suk series editor volume editor significant progress has been made recently in shape analysis using neural networks and the energy minimization concept ablex publishing corporation is planning a special volume on shape analysis scheduled for this year this volume will be a part of progress in neural networks an annual book series reviewing research in modelling analysis design and application of neural networks the primary aim of this volume is to present in a single volume the most important achievements made on this important topic which are otherwise scattered in diverse literature authors are invited to submit original manuscripts detailing recent progress suggested topics include but are not limited to shape modelling shape estimation shape recovery shape representation shape matching surface reconstruction and surface decomposition research work utilizing neural networks directly or based on energy minimization techniques such as markov random field mean field annealing simulated annealing graduated non convexity algorithms and resistive networks are most welcome the paper should be tutorial in nature self contained and preferably but not necessarily about fifty double spaced pages in length please send electronically if you prefer you can send a hardcopy to the address below an abstract and an outline to msuk ima enst fr by may the full paper must be submitted by july to europe usa professor minsoo suk professor omid m omidvar department images computer science department ecole nationale superieure university of district of columbia des telecommunications connecticut ave n w rue barrault washington d c paris cedex phone france fax fax email oomidvar udcvax bitnet email msuk ima enst fr
comp.graphics	acm siggraph registration problem a word of warning for those of you registering for siggraph i just received my registration form back in the mail with the envelope marked return to sender moved left no address closed po box the address i used to register for siggraph is the one printed on the registration form acm siggraph po box chicago il i printed the envelope in my best printing honest but evidently siggraph has skipped town or moved i ended up faxing my registration to i hope that number is real michael zyda
comp.graphics	re ntsc data to rgb for video capture usually you apply r y g u b v after unlevelshifting u and v subtracting from them this matrix multiplication may give results out of rgb space so you have to clamp the resulting bytes to the conversion should be done with arbitrary big integers not floats this applies to yuv data whereas ntsc may have yiq where a degree rotation to u v is buid in o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.graphics	re fast polygon routine needed in article apr eye com jesse eye com jesse lackey writes in article rguqoinnrc edna cc swin edu au alan saturn cs swin oz au alan christiansen writes i believe that the algorithms you can get that will only draw convex polygons can be much more efficient than those that can draw concave self intersecting polygons this efficiency can largely be attributed to the fact that simple convex polygons only have a left and a right edge on each scan line complex figure type polygons can be a bit trickier it is true the convex algorithm is faster than a general concave multi outline algorithm but not tremendously faster i spent awhile implementing and optimizing both flavors and the convex turned out about faster this is all c on hp pa risc the compiler got the inner loop shooting the span as fast as possible as far as i could tell for any sort of game the database to render is known ahead of time and can be made all convex definitely the way to go ok thanks for help everyone i still haven t found quite what i m looking for but i ve got finals coming up soon so i have to put all this on hold thanx lucas
comp.graphics	digital terrain data for visualization needed we need terrain data for a visualization research currently taking place in tel aviv university we have two databases that we are currently working on but we would like to work on more databases possibly more complicated and ones that will give prettier images before i describe what kind of data we need let me mention that we are going to present a paper titled photo realistic imaging of digital terrains which describes the research and the results in the eurographics conference in barcelona this september we are going to show a video tape with some of our results so any good data that we will receive will be presented in the tape with a mention of the donator we are working on databases consisting of aerial or satelite photographs and terrain elevation maps dtm each database consists of a d array of height values any data format can be used for each value and a corresponding d array of color values can be gray level color value or full bit r g b values other format can also be used we work on x and x resolution databases if anybody has access to this kind of data or knows where we can get such data files please respond in this news group or better email us directly amit math tau ac il amit shaked or danny indigo bgu ac il daniel cohen of course the names of the people who will help us get the data will be cited in our paper and in further publications
comp.graphics	ftp site s with gifs i have been looking around some ftp sites and cannot find one with any good gif files could someone please tell me of some ftp sites which do posses goods gifs and a wide range please email me at the address above thanks martin
comp.graphics	kubota vs e s freedome more people have been asking for information on the kubota graphics workstations so here is some more info on the kenai denali vs the e s freedom here is the text of a denali vs e s freedom done by d h brown associates denali bears a strong resemblance to evans and sutherlands freedom graphics subsystem in several aspects of its high level design both products use a parallel array of processors for geometric computations both have a pixel router to connect this front end to a second array of pixel processors as a result denali and freedome overlap significantly in performance and functionality both design teams also appear to have similar philosophies with respect to modularity scalability and market penetration there remain however several important differences between the kpc and e s products evans and sutherland designed freedom as a high end developer s dream system with plenty of performance potential and flexibility in its favor freedom has configurations from two to sixteen floating point units a border range that starts and ends at a higher price and performance levels than denali all freedom systems include a large fixed number of pixel processors that support a broader variety of color blending functions the freedom design treats its entire image memory as general purpose memory allowing developers to allocate it on a flexible basis to a number of special purpose applications finally e s provided freedom with very flexible otput and video integration features for multimedia and simulation applications note that kpc is working an auxiliary board for ntsc and pal output that will not require an external video encoder e s programmable output features however will remain much more flexible the kpc design team in contrast made denali more of an end user s system entry version have better performance range and flexibility than low end freedom configurations and come in at more realistic mainstream price points denali does not need as many modules as freedome because it uses a deeper scan conversion pipeline to support each one resulting in better cost performance characteristics although both products provide strong support for d imaging and volume rendering kpc recognized that not all users will want an even mix of these capabilities denali s configuration flexibility allows customers in effect to purchase geometric and pixel processing capabilities separately and to upgrade them separately as needed both companies have implemented hardware texture mapping at workstation price levels as a way to attack sgi s more expensive vgxt and realityengine systems the only other products to provide this capability kpc supports point sampling and bilinear interpolation of textures in hardware but provides only software support for the higher qualtiy tri linear interpolated mipmapping method on balance however denali provideds bettern overall texturing capabilities than e s for most applications aside from being much more affordable kpc solutions deliver more parallelism for texture processing and more off screen memory for general graphics data storage by implementing texture mapping on its transformation modules e s foces customers to move very quickly to higher price levels to obtain better texturing performance kubota avoids this problem by linking texturing to its frame buffer modules providing a lower cost more scalable solution hope this helps brian ps this was reprinted without permission for the full text please contact kubota
comp.graphics	re xv problems in article apr nessie mcc ac uk c c lilley mcc ac uk writes yes xv is an bit program this is not a bug never claimed it is a bug xv can import bit images and quantises them down to bits this is a handy facility not a bug never claimed it is a bug how would you suggest doing colour editing on a bit file how would you group related colours to edit them together only global changes could be done unless the software were very different and much more complicated if you want to do colour editing on a bit image you need much more powerfull software which is readily available commercially i guess i edited my note on this away from the article i posted to many newsgroups i wrote something about making color modifications quickly with bit quantized images and only at the saving the image to file process we have to make the modifications to the bit image this makes sense because the main use of xv is only viewing images doing many changes to image we should keep all modifications in a buffer and then before making the operations to bit image we should simplify the operation list for unnecessary operations and lastly jpeg is a compression algorithm it can be applied to any image of arbitrary bit depth again this is not a bug never claimed it is a bug i tried kept sure i don t claim that jpeg is noting else than a compression algorithm because i know what the jpeg is you propably misunderstood what i wrote as you have done in many places so far you also missed what is were wrong with xv however i did wrote it juhana kouhia
comp.graphics	convertion program to gremlin i was wondering if somebody knows of a pd program for converting any graphic formats such as fig pic unixplot tek etc to gremlin thanks dan
comp.graphics	re human head modeling software in article c wbp k taurus cs nps navy mil adaptive cs nps navy mil zyda res acct writes hi there i am interested in facial animation and want to implement some program about this area but i don t have any d information for the face i am looking for some d images of face try getting the cyberware demo via ftp which contains d images of the face what is the copyright status of this data are there restrictions regarding the uses they can be put to kaveh kaveh kardan kardank ere umontreal ca kaveh all of the data included with in the cyberware demo is non proprietary use it as you like i just ask that you give us credit if you use it in a research paper project and send us the results thanks geo cyberware george dabrowski cyberware labs dabro taurus cs nps navy mil
comp.graphics	colour transform for red green colour blindness posted on behalf of craig southeren who does not have access to a net account can anyone provide me with a colour space transform that would emulate the effects of red green colour blindness i have had a quick look in the computer graphics literature with no results perhaps someone who has access to medical information could help i would like to write a program probably a ppm filter to allow previewing of images to check for sufficient contract for colour blind users not being colour blind myself this is a bit difficult please email replies i will summarise and repost if there is sufficient interest craig craig southeren you can have it good cheap chief engineer or fast any two picture start productions arthur c clarke email c geoffw ucc su oz au phone educate don t legislate
comp.graphics	re rgb hls hsv conversion routines wanted in article aa sun nl nluug nl bultman dgw rws nl g w bultman writes hi i m looking for rgb cube hls double hexcone hsv cylinder conversion routines i have rgb hsv but miss the hls rgb hsv have you checked foley s book the solutions are in chapter yeh usc
comp.graphics	re rgb to hvs and back in article ltu buinne j caspian usc edu zyeh caspian usc edu zhenghao yeh writes see foley van dam feiner and hughes computer graphics principles and practice second edition if people would read this book percent of the questions in this froup would disappear overnight not really i think it is less than nah i figure most people would be so busy reading that they wouldn t have time to post spl steve lamont sciviguy spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource uc san diego la jolla ca until i meet you then in upper hell convulsed foaming immortal blood farewell j berryman a professor s song
comp.graphics	re why does illustrator autotrace so poorly i use arts letters on a pc and if you make use of the tracing preferences it traces beautifully but there s a trick to tracing i ve traced entire cartoon images into custom clip art but you can t expect to just point to the image and get it just like that it takes a little work in some cases a lot of work you need to trace a drawing piece by piece and then put it together it s kinda hard to explain in type but if you re ever in reno i can give you a little demonstration
comp.graphics	re rgb to hvs and back i have a little answer see foley van dam feiner and hughes computer graphics principles and practice second edition if people would read this book percent of the questions in this froup would disappear overnight not really i think it is less than yeh usc
comp.graphics	a graphic design newsgroup which newsgroup discusses graphic design on pcs and macs y know like with corel draw
comp.graphics	screen capture is there a dos screen capture utility pd or shareware that will work reliably with vesa a x screens thanks h w stockman hwstock sandia llnl gov
comp.graphics	arts letters graphics editor does anyone on this group use this program it stacks up pretty well to corel draw and since i don t have a cdrom it was the best buy maybe someone would be interested in trading tips and tricks
comp.graphics	re ftp site s with gifs mharring cch coventry ac uk martin writes i have been looking around some ftp sites and cannot find one with any good gif files could someone please tell me of some ftp sites which do posses goods gifs and a wide range whatever you do don t ftp to the sites listed in my sig you won t like what you find really i beg you not to go there please e ed stastny otis project end process sound news and arts po bx ftp sunsite unc edu pub multimedia pictures otis omaha ne projects otis email ed cwis unomaha edu ed sunsite unc edu
comp.graphics	re colour transform for red green colour blindness in article geoffw extro ucc su oz au geoffw extro ucc su oz au geoffrey warren hicks writes posted on behalf of craig southeren who does not have access to a net account can anyone provide me with a colour space transform that would emulate the effects of red green colour blindness i have had a quick look in the computer graphics literature with no results perhaps someone who has access to medical information could help certainly reference follows bear in mind that there are at least two conditions which may be called red green colour blind one protanopia is caused by a lack or major dysfunction of the l cones those that respond best to long wavelengths this gives much reduced red green and red violet discrimination and also means that reds look dimmer than than they do to people with normal vision the other deuteranopia is due to missing or dysfunctional m cones although it can also be caused by a lack of the l m cone difference signals in the retina it also gives reduced red green discrimination but red violet is unaffected unlike protanopia reds are not dimmer than normal on a uniform chromaticity diagram the horseshoe shaped one you see in computer graphics books there is a single confusion point for each type of colour deficiency colours which are confused lie on straight lines radiating from this point for protanopia the point is at u v very close to the far red corner for deuteranopia the point is at u v note that different experimental investigations in the literature give slightly different values for these depending on the precise details of the experimental setup random errors and so on the values quoted are typical so if all colours on a line are seen as the same which colour is actually seen this problem has now been solved tests on people with one normal eye and one affected eye have shown that there is an axis for each type of disorder onto which all the colours collapse for protanopes this joins up nm and nm on the spectral locus the edge of the horseshoe for deuteranopes the line is very similar joining nm and nm so to convert colours from normal vision to a simulated protanopia or duuteranopia plot the colour on a uniform chromaticity diagram construct a line from this point to the appropriate confusion point find the intersection of this line with the appropriate axis line this is the new chromaticity the best reference for this is meyer g w greenberg d p colour defective vision and computer graphics displays ieee computer graphics and applications you will also need a decent reference on basic colour science if you are not familiar with the cie xyz colour model and the uniform chromaticity scale diagram i would like to write a program probably a ppm filter to allow previewing of images to check for sufficient contract for colour blind users not being colour blind myself this is a bit difficult yes this is certainly possible you will need the chromaticities of the red green and blue phosphors of the monitor you intend to display the images on and the chromaticity of the white point this information can be measured or obtained from the manufacturer i posted a list of some monitor chromaticities a couple of weeks ago the procedure for each pixel is as follows some lookup tables might be a help here a convert rgb to cie xyz this is a simple matrix multiplication once you have the monitor data b retaining the y component for later convert xyz to chromaticity coordinates u v using u x x y z v y x y z c find the equation of the line as in step above d find the intersection as in step e convert back from u v to xyz using the y value from step a f ensure that this new colour can be displayed on your monitor if not move it along a line in xyz space towards neutral grey ie half way between black and white until it is displayable please email replies i will summarise and repost if there is sufficient interest done also posted for the rest of us chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester uk m pl internet c c lilley mcc ac uk voice fax janet c c lilley uk ac mcc
comp.graphics	gif viewer i am having trouble viewing gif files on my system large sections don t show up i have tried vpic and picem both do the same i am running a gateway c with a speedstar plus vga card and an nec multisync ds inch monitor any suggestions i don t know if robert woodward department of physiology university of missouri columbia mo e mail c mizzou missouri edu
comp.graphics	re turning photographic images into thermal print and or negatives in article apr seq uncwil edu hawks seq uncwil edu david hawks writes it is for a business and the end product has to be a photograph i take damaged black and whites usually old some very and repair them by hand at present i would like to do this by using a computer i am just trying to find a vendor who can convert my computer stored images to negatives or thermal print the customer will want his her copy as much as possible like a brand new original photgraph there are several crt to film writers around agfa has some they also might be called matrix and i am pretty sure other companies sell the same equipment you might want to talk to any company in your area that does presentation slides or offers graphics services they should have those machines and they might point you to a local vendor from there on it s all a question of money they units are essentially high res crts plus a filter wheel plus a mm camera and a computer hook up david reiner p s i am currently shooting my slides for my next talk on one of the agfa machines
comp.graphics	viewing jpeg files can i view jpeg files without special hardware lucy wilson access services librarian college of engineering university of cincinnati
comp.graphics	libraries for text math graphics display does anyone know of any c or c libraries for preparing and displaying quickly pages of mixed text mathematical equations and graphics circles ellipses etc on the vdu the maths wouldnt need to be up to tex quality but it would be useful to be scaleable the main thing would be to be able to generate the display quickly from a minimum set of formatting code thanks ed campbell
comp.graphics	re rgb to hvs and back in article ltu buinne j caspian usc edu zyeh caspian usc edu zhenghao yeh writes see foley van dam feiner and hughes computer graphics principles and practice second edition if people would read this book percent of the questions in this froup would disappear overnight not really i think it is less than or alternatively of the questions cover of the topics in this group making them frequently asked so the other cover of the topics making them rarely asked and thus in sore need of answering chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester uk m pl internet c c lilley mcc ac uk voice fax janet c c lilley uk ac mcc
comp.graphics	re xv problems in article rohjc avt cc tut fi jk lehtori cc tut fi kouhia juhana writes in article apr nessie mcc ac uk c c lilley mcc ac uk writes moved on a bit i wrote something about making color modifications quickly with bit quantized images and only at the saving the image to file process we have to make the modifications to the bit image this makes sense because the main use of xv is only viewing images doing many changes to image we should keep all modifications in a buffer and then before making the operations to bit image we should simplify the operation list for unnecessary operations think about what you are saying here the bit image is quantised down to bits so many similar colours are mapped onto a single palette colour this colour gets modified in fairly arbitrary ways you then want to apply these modifications back to the bit file so you have to find which colours mapped to this one palette colour ok you could do this by copying the bit file to a bit file and using the extra bits to hold the index entry having done this you need to do something to them what exactly apply the difference in rgb between the original and modified palette entry to each colour in the group this could generate colours with rgb outside the range it would also lead to discontinuities when different parts of a smooth colour gradient mapped to several different palette entries you could interpolate from full modification to no modification depending how far each colour was from the palette entry however i suspect this would look rather odd so in summary what i said in my previous posting still holds how would you suggest doing colour editing on a bit file how would you group related colours to edit them together only global changes could be done unless the software were very different and much more complicated if you want to do colour editing on a bit image you need much more powerfull software which is readily available commercially in other words to edit a bit file you need software built for the job tacking mods onto xv is going to create more problems than it solves as to the other bits you seemed to be claiming that there were bugs in xv if that was not what you meant then you propably misunderstood what i wrote as you have done in many places so far yes i probably did i found that the collected digest format of your posting made it a little difficult to understand precisely what your point was sorry if i misunderstood you also missed what is were wrong with xv however i did wrote it yes again what is was wrong with xv chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester uk m pl internet c c lilley mcc ac uk voice fax janet c c lilley uk ac mcc
comp.graphics	pc question modes hi i need to know if there is a color graphics mode that allows multiple pages i want something like mode x x x pages i have been experimenting with graphics by calling the bios with borland turbo c i feel like i am flying blind in this area and could use all the help that you can give thanks ivan ivan pulleyn university of rochester e mail ip b uhura cc rochester edu
comp.graphics	raw gif hello can anybody help me to find a program that converts a format named raw also known as img to the gif format or jpeg one it s desirable to be for a unix machine than for a pc raw format of a n n image is a file that contain a tail of n n characters each one referencing to the k n j pixel of the monocrome image where k and j lies between and n thanxs mne ing puc cl
comp.graphics	pbm dec when s the new version does anyone know if the fabled new version of pbm will be out soon as far as i know the current version is dec jeff p are you out there jeffrey e hundstad
comp.graphics	ascii or ansi pics where can someone tell me where i could find ansi or ascii pics i already found the gopher ascii pics thanks richard mancsuo curdm uxa ecn bgu edu
comp.graphics	digital cameras i m interested in obtaining the highest possible image capture in a ms windows application the resulting image must go to print and high resolution is the name of the game i m familiar with and unhappy with composite video capture technology what kind of resolution can i get out of an svhs signal what about rgb and who makes rgb cameras does anyone have any experience with digital cameras any help at all would be greatly appreciated william brandsdorfer uucp uunet lehman com wbrand lehman brothers inet wbrand lehman com greenwich st voice new york n y
comp.graphics	windows bmp something wanted g day all i m looking for a program to convert bmp images to gif tga or even ppm i d prefer a unix program but dos is fine also i ve seen alchemy for dos and some windows image viewers which can save an image in other formats but what i m after is a converter not a viewer any help would be apprieciated cheers stephen s peter unsw edu au stephen peter or steve keystone arch unsw edu au v school of architecture university of new south wales australia phone fax messages
comp.graphics	ibm writing to screen memory graphics can anyone give me information or lead me to electronic information not books i m too poor regarding programming the standard graphics modes x x and x x are easy enough but i m not so sure about the rest something about planes or something and writing to ports and the like but i don t know the numbers or anything for the color modes i think if i m wrong let me know also x x is just one byte pixel that s easy enough but are there any other ways to write to the screen perhaps bytes at a time or something like that of course i d appreciate any information about any mode which reminds me of another question do the supervga modes work the same generally as the normal and color modes or is not only the mode numbers for various cards different but the methods for writing to the screen different as well thanks for any help you can give me i m developing a screen class for c and find myself searching for information oh i do have ralf brown s interrupt list which has given me tons of invaluable information already it just doesn t go into the screen programming details except for the read write pixel bios calls thanks again edward ball sigless knight eball calvin edu
comp.graphics	synergy revolt an otis colaberation project the otis project presents synergy revolt the first in a continuing series of collaborative art initiatives designed to exploit the binarity of the infosphere this series of diversely structured art manipulation projects will attempt to stretch across network boundries encouraging use of electronic mail fax video photography scanned conventional art and even sound to create multi artist still visuals in gif and jpg formats visualists from all technical levels are welcome revolt will be structured simply there will be three stages of production the first stage will consist of all participants creating one still work as a starter piece that two other partici pants will in turn manipulate all first stage base images are due by sunday may rd midnight central daylight time stage two will begin on may th all images will be sent to another arbitrarily chosen participant for them to do manipulations on in anyway they see fit for purely digital artists this may consist of filtering the image through their favorite paint program for analog artists this may well be printing a hardcopy of the image and adding their own part with pen pencil or white out then scan ning in the image again to be transferred on to the third stage artist all second stage works are due by midnight on sunday may th stage three is the finishing stage and will begin on may st all artists will do what they think it takes to finish up the image they ve been given using whatever technique they see as worthy these images will be due on june th midnight all involved will participate in each stage of creation to join send email mail with the following info name email address mail address scanner access color grey none printer access laser postscript inkjet color dot computer access mac ibm pc sun amiga atari next other output format tiff targa gif jpeg pict postscript fax photocopy pcx windows bitmap graphics level bit bit bit ftp access time limitations address the information to email mad celt cwis unomaha edu andrew booth project manager include revolt in the subject line mail the otis project synergy revolt po bx omaha ne remember all starter images are due on sunday may rd deposit them at either of these ftp sites sunsite unc edu pub multimedia pictures otis incoming or projects otis incoming or send uuencoded images to us via email or send hardcopies to address above or arrange fax exchange if you don t get your starter image in you won t be able to participate until synergy phase ii in mid june we will do our best to accomodate facilitate image exchange for the technologically impaired if you don t have access to a scanner but need one we ll try to help if you need an image printed out and sent to you let us know send an sase if you anticipate this additional information available on the following suggestions for use of uncommon mediums such as video stills electronic imaging and sound fax availability times copyright considerations appropriation image conversion the otis project in general andy booth were you ever abducted by aliens ever see elvis po bx at the local i would like to hear from you omaha ne about any paranormal experiences you have had
comp.graphics	re rgb to hvs and back remco hartog remcoha htsa aha nl wrote i have a little question i need to convert rgb coded red green blue colors into hvs coded hue value saturnation colors does anyone know which formulas to use lets see if i have this right hsv hsb hsl and none of those are the same as hls hopefully hvs is just a transposition of hsv and not yet another color model the following code should do the hsv hsl coding i haven t tried it yet thanks to bultman dgw rws nl another possibility is mirrors msdos graphics graphgem zip on wuarchive wustl edu bill neisius bill solaria hac com the following code is from the starbase hp manual all coordinates noralised at interval hsl to rgb hue saturation luminosity red green blue float hue saturation luminosity input in hsl float red green blue output in rgb float frac lx ly lz temporaries hue hue frac hue int hue lx luminosity saturation ly luminosity saturation frac lz luminosity saturation frac switch int hue case case red luminosity green lz blue lx break case red ly green luminosity blue lx break case red lx green luminosity blue lz break case red lx green ly blue luminosity break case red lz green lx blue luminosity break case red luminosity green lx blue ly break rgb to hsl red green blue hue saturation luminosity define max a b c a b a b c a b a b c define min a b c a b a b c a b a b c float red green blue input in rgb float hue saturation luminosity output in hsl float x tempr tempg tempb temporary values hue saturation luminosity max red green blue x min red green blue if luminosity calculate only if necessary saturation luminosity x luminosity if saturation calculate only if necessary tempr luminosity red luminosity x tempg luminosity green luminosity x tempb luminosity blue luminosity x if red luminosity hue green x tempb tempg else if green luminosity hue blue x tempr tempb else hue red x tempg tempr hue
comp.graphics	help needed dxf iff hi sorry if this is a faq but are there any conversion utilities available for autodesk dxf to amiga iff format i checked the comp graphics faq and a number of sites but so far no banana please e mail thanks pei hsieh e mail ph cunixb cc columbia edu there s no such thing as a small job just small fees anon on being an architect
comp.graphics	looking for polygon convexifier does anyone know where i can find a code which would take concave polygons and break them up into a set of convex polygons thanks kevin sahr piglet uccs edu
comp.graphics	looking for a job as a software engineer i am not sure that i am supposed to post this mail here however during the last year while i was involved in developing graphical user interface gui applications i have enjoyed being personally part of this news group wherin i got some interesting information which helped me in my work i am posting my resuming hoping that people working in my area would make time to look at it a westgate hall isu ames ia april dear prospective employer i am seeking employment as a software engineer with interests in software design and development in which i can utilize my experience in hardware c c programming graphical user interface gui operating systems and computer networking i received my bachelors of engineering be degree in electronics engineering in and a m s degree in electrical engineering in dec from iowa state university currently i am enrolled in a m s in computer engineering at iowa state university during my masters program as a research assistant since jan i have published three papers including one in the ieee transactions on magnetics these papers are a reflection of the quality of my research and my ability to learn new concepts quickly i have been involved in many projects involving software developments and have extensive experience programming in c c fortran and assembly level i am also familiar with operating systems like unix ultrix and ms dos i am familiar with motif x programming and currently as a research assistant am involved in graphical user interface gui design using the multiplatform gui toolkit xvt my experiences also include areas such as operating systems and computer networks through course work and projects i was involved in the study of the design and development of the internals of the xinu operating system i have also been involved in many tcp ip programming projects in computer networking while in college i learnt the importance of clear and concise communication i have also learned a lot about time management in my m s program i have maintained a grade average worked hours per week and have enjoyed being involved in many other extra curricular activities my software experiences along with my hardware background electronics engineering would be very helpful in my career goals as a software engineer i request that my qualifications may kindly be reviewed i would like to have an interview to discuss your employment needs and my career goals i am eager to hear from you soon sincerely s n rajesh rajsnr iastate edu resume s n rajesh work residence coover isu a westgate hall isu ames ia ames ia e mail rajsnr iastate edu objective to obtain a challenging position as a software engineer involving software design and development in which i can utilize my experience in hardware c c programming graphical user interface gui operating systems and computer networking education currently enrolled in a m s in computer engineering iowa state university ames iowa m s in electrical engineering iowa state university ames iowa dec gpa major overall thesis probability of detection pod models for eddy current nondestructive evaluation nde methods project funded by federal aviation administration faa b e in electronics engineering bangalore university bangalore india jan publications s n rajesh l udpa and s s udpa numerical model based approach for estimating probability of detection in nde applications ieee transactions on magnetics vol no march s n rajesh l udpa and s s udpa estimation of eddy current probability of detection using d finite element model presented at the th annual review of progress in quantitative nondestructive evaluation conferance san diego california jul s n rajesh l udpa s s udpa and n nakagawa probability of detection models for eddy current nde methods presented at the th annual review of progress in quantitative nondestructive evaluation conferance brunswick me jul relevant implemention of operating systems electronic devices and circuits course computer network architecture pulse and digital circuits work advanced computer communications artificial neural networks introduction to supercomputing pattern recognition microprocessors and computer digital image processing organization digital signal processing computer technology and integrated circuits and design programming projects implementation of the fork system call on the xinu operating system also involved in the implementation of a cpu scheduling algorithm taking into consideration the aging of processes this project involved the study of the design and development of the internals of the xinu operating system design and development of an interrupt driven keyboard driver this project involved a thorough understanding of device drivers design and development of a unix like tree structured directory which allows the creation of subdirectories and organization of files accordingly this project included the implementation of routines such as mkdir rmdir cd ls and rm to support the directory structure analysis of methods of congestion control in computer networks implementation of the bellman ford routing algorithm for a distributed network the communication between network nodes was based on udp this project involved programming in c simulation of the various digital logic functional units starting from the basic gates to registers counters adders multipliers arithmetic logic unit alu and so on the project involved extensive c programming in an unix environment work research assistant center for nde iowa state university ames experience ia aug present work involves development of applications using graphical user interface gui toolkits familiar with programming in a motif x environment more recent work involves development of multiplatform gui applications in c using the portable gui toolkit xvt this project is supported by nist national institute of standards and technology research assistant center for nde iowa state university ames ia jan aug work involved developing software for modeling electromagnetic nde techniques such as the eddy current method it also involved optimization of the code on the parallel computer cray ymp this project was supported by faa and involved working in close contact with the aircraft industry boeing trainee engineer indian telephone industries bangalore india work involved design and development of a microprocessor based programmable telephone dialler used in cordless telephones involved programming of a microprocessor to control the pulsing actions of the relays in a telephone circuit jan nov computer languages c c fortran assembly level skills software motif x xvt computer graphics hoops tcp ip programming image processing utilities sdrc ideas autocad operating systems unix stellix ultrix ms dos systems dec series hp and sun workstations macintosh stellar parallel systems cray ymp ibm j maspar n cube honours and iowa state university graduate college scholarship activities jan present ranked out of over students in bachelors of engineering entrance examination ensuring full scholarship from the state to pursue my bachelors s degree current member of ieee references available upon request
comp.graphics	intel s pci standard i read a mesg somewhere on genie about intel coming out with a graphics standard called pci which would supplant vesa standards is this a rumor or is there some substance to it if any of y all have heard of this standard please e mail me on how i might obtain more info thanks in advance vamilliron othello ucd edu
comp.graphics	pov ray for vax computer hi there i m using pov ray on my ibm compatible at home but i would like to run some things at work on our vax computer i believe there is a version of the source code for pov ray that is vax specific but i m not sure where to find it i ve looked at the several sites where the ibmpc version of it can be found can anyone help me thanks in advance ross kummer rmit melbourne australia internet address rkummer phillip edu au no clever signoff yet too busy playing with pov ray
comp.graphics	gws anybody know where i can get graphics work shop brad utkvx utk edu
comp.graphics	re xv problems in article apr nessie mcc ac uk c c lilley mcc ac uk writes in article rohjc avt cc tut fi jk lehtori cc tut fi kouhia juhana writes i wrote something about making color modifications quickly with bit quantized images and only at the saving the image to file process we have to make the modifications to the bit image this makes sense because the main use of xv is only viewing images doing many changes to image we should keep all modifications in a buffer and then before making the operations to bit image we should simplify the operation list for unnecessary operations think about what you are saying here the bit image is quantised down to bits so many similar colours are mapped onto a single palette colour this colour gets modified in fairly arbitrary ways you then want to apply these modifications back to the bit file so you have to find which colours mapped to this one palette colour i suppose you don t know what about we have discussed we discussed about error s in xv which shows images only as bit and my suggestion above works perfectly with it so far i have seen a colormap editing window in xv that is there must be a colormap anyway the problems you present are exist anyway and i didn t tried to solve them at all because i would not make such problems to my programs in the first place gamma and color corrections are easily done to bit image as i presented there s no need make tricks from bit quantized image back to bit image how would you suggest doing colour editing on a bit file how would you group related colours to edit them together only global changes could be done unless the software were very different and much more complicated ok you re writing about situation that user want edit images as bit and user want edit individual colors your questions by the way jumps off the discussion a bit my solution doesn t work because there s no colormap withing real bit image you see user see bit image going back to bit is silly about changing individual colors in bit quantized rasterized image changing individual colors in colormap is useless in most cases if the image is quantized and rasterized small change may make serious errors to anywhere in the image xv allows this feature but i don t recommend to use it with the mentioned type images moreover xv is not a paint program you can only make those global changes in full bit xv changing individual colors sounds like paint program job if person have bit screen there s need for tricks to get the original bit image modified because user don t see full bit image there s need to make approximations and it is not possible to modify individual colors but individual pixels or pixel groups if image is rasterized to select indiavidual color there could be x cursor window which shows true color image in cursor window area selecting individual color is possible from that ok i don t have thought very much bit painting programs never seen such in good view and are not planned to make such not to mention bit painting program in bit screen yes again what is was wrong with xv it saved bit quantized rasterized images as bit jpegs jpeg is not designed for that also human expect that bit will be saved as bit image say person would like to crop part of the image and save it then it is expected that the image still is the same so xv were designed without thinking about human interface and how human expect the program work design error i have heard xv were designed first for bit images files but it were not good idea to take full bit images without making major change to the original design so even all screen images are bit the processed images and saved images could have been bit very easily instead of bit before anybody will make a note yes i may as well make a lift where up means that the lift goes down and down means that the lift goes up and put a note on this design solution to the manuals however even the manuals tells the correct situation it doesn t solve the problem americans the lift is just an example well my text may be a bit hard reading hopefully you suggeeded to read it juhana kouhia
comp.graphics	re raw gif you can use pbm s rawtopgm to convert three raw r g b files to pgm format then you can use pgm toppm to convert the pgm files to a composite ppm file and feed this to cjpeg for compression slow and circuitous but it will work rick
comp.graphics	re help needed dxf iff in article apr news columbia edu ph cunixb cc columbia edu pei hsieh writes hi sorry if this is a faq but are there any conversion utilities available for autodesk dxf to amiga iff format i checked the comp graphics faq and a number of sites but so far no banana please e mail thanks pei hsieh e mail ph cunixb cc columbia edu there s no such thing as a small job just small fees anon on being an architect hei pei i can not help you directly width you problem but there may be intermediate roads to take to get to the iff i am using a converter that can take iges iif dxf iges milespec i iges milespec ii iges iif milespec i iif milespec ii iif and dxf iif is ibm iges format there may be converters out there that can handle iges to iff hope this was to any help by the way the converter is part of the iges processor package from ibm and it runs on rs aix best regard finn chr lundbo ibm bergen environmental sciences solutions centre e mail finn bsc no
comp.graphics	xv for dos what s the problem i downloaded the file xv exe zip from the site someone posted here it contained the files cjpeg exe djpeg exe xv exe when i tried to run it it just said couldn t run go exe and halts what s the matter with this are there some files missing in the zip what is go exe any help appreciated bye wolfram wolfram kresse e mail wolfram rbg informatik th darmstadt de meeneemeeneemeenee cu l r le g r i yes that s right tweeky u
comp.graphics	alpha kubota graphic vs sgi who has experience with porting a gl program to an alpha apx workstation with kubota s denali d graphic is there any problems is the real graphic performance like a sgi r indigo xs z juergen fechter universitaet tuebingen wsi gris office auf der morgenstelle c fax w tuebingen germany email fechter gris informatik uni tuebingen de
comp.graphics	re tiff complexity in article aa enet gw pa dec com you write anyone who thinks that tiff is too complex hasn t dealt with cgm asn cda dca sgml or any one of a number of other very successful file format people seem perfectly capable dealing with these others well yeah but unlike tiff they all do substantially more than encode rectangular bitmaps and the others are hardly trouble free i hear that it is quite common for cgm implementations not to interoperate the annoying thing about tiff is that is that along with the useful options there are stupid options the most egregious example is that rather than picking a byte order and bit order and using it consistently in all tiff files byte and bit order are options and all tiff readers on all machines no matter what their natural byte order have to be prepared to do byte swapping there are four slightly different fax formats again any one of them would have been adequate rgb images can be stored by pixel or by component complexity without function etc etc i also note that the tiff doc says that aldus experiments show that lzw reliably compresses as well or better than any of the fax formats suggesting that none of the fax formats are really useful what s worse a lot of the formats aren t even implemented very well e g lzw limits code words to bits while or bits would have provided substantially better compression and the lzw method compresses bytes rather than pixels but the absolute worst thing about tiff is that any vendor can register proprietary tiff codes and formats without even publicly documenting them this means that there is no way to write a tiff reader that can reliably read all incoming tiff files some standard regards john levine johnl iecc cambridge ma us spdcc ima world iecc johnl
comp.graphics	re help need bits viewer in article apr labtam labtam oz au graeme labtam labtam oz a u graeme gill writes in article seti inria fr deniaud cartoon inria fr gilles deniaud writ es hi i m looking for a program which is able to display bits images we are using a sun sparc equipped with parallax graphics board running x xli xloadimage or imagemagick export lcs mit edu contrib xv shareware supports bit displays and has lots of other improvements over earlier versions definitely worth checking out also at export jean jean liddle computer science illinois state university e mail jliddle ilstu edu
comp.graphics	looking for brain in cad jasen mabus rpi student i am looking for a hman brain in any cad dxf cad iges cgm etc or picture gif jpg ras etc format for an animation demonstration if any has or knows of a location please reply by e mail to mabusj rpi edu thank you in advance jasen mabus
comp.graphics	sci files and sco files hello there a week ago a guy asked what a sco file was well i researched a bit and foundout that it is just another rix file sci files are x files and sco files are x files alle the other formats x x are also called something like sc character regards rued
comp.graphics	re real d in article vall dsv su se matt dah dsv su se mattias dahlberg writes rauno haapaniemi raunoh otol fi wrote earlier today i read an ad for real d animation ray tracing software and it looked very convincing to me yes it looks like very good indeed however i don t own an amiga and so i began to wonder if there s a pc version of it nope did i not hear that there maybe some ports of real d version in the pipeline somewhere possibly unix not too sure though please put me straight gary work serc daresbury lab internet g coulter daresbury ac uk uni staffordshire university hardware a a regards email x x mattias matt dah dsv su se i love it
comp.graphics	re tom gaskins pexlib vs phigs programming manuals o reilly in article rb k l v neuro usc edu merlin neuro usc edu merlin writes could someone explain the difference between tom gaskins two books o pexlib programming manual o phigs programming manual why would i want to buy one book vs the other book i have an pexlib and phigs as it comes from mit with pex and as is explained in the phigs programming manual are just different api s for the pex protocol which is an extension to the x protocol so it depends on you what you go to use advantage of phigs is the protability to other platforms ibm graphigs sunphigs and the standardized structuring of the d objects advantage of pexlib is the sometimes faster and easier programming for immediate mode graphics because pex is not an exactly mapping of phigs to a prortocol o o ooo ooo roland holzapfel computer email wilhelminenstrasse graphics holzapfe igd fhg de darmstadt center phone germany zgdv this space intentionally left blank
comp.graphics	re intel s pci standard vamilliron yes intel s pci is another local bus standard which can be used for graphics although i believe local buses can be used for other things too as far as i know though pci local bus would compete with vesa local bus not the vesa graphics standard but others more enlightened might be able to shed more light on this matter
comp.graphics	wanted shareware graphics display program for dos i need a graphics display program that can take as a parameter the name of the file to be displayed then just display that image and then quit all of the other graphics display programs come up with a menu first or some other silliness this program is going to be run from within another program i have lots of memory and vga color any graphics format will do has anyone heard of such a beast keith keith knudsen notre dame in
comp.graphics	th scia invitation to the th scia the th scandinavian conference on image analysis will be arranged by the norwegian society for image processing and pattern recognition nobim and sponsored by the international association for pattern recognition iapr the conference will be held in tromsoe from th th may tromsoe located at latitude degrees n is northern norway s centre for administration and education about the programme the scientific programme runs over four days and includes invited speakers sessions in three parallel tracks with contributed papers and poster sessions with contributions the conference covers the following topics image processing and analysis pattern recognition computer vision parallel algorithms and architectures neural nets matching methods image compression remote sensing medical and biological applications industrial applications conference language the official language of the conference is english invited talks and speakers segmentation of range images via data fusion and morphological watersheds professor ralph gonzalez university of tennessee knoxville object recognition using range images professor anil k jain michigan state university experiments in mobile robot navigation and range imaging dr judd jones oak ridge national laboratory image compression professor tor ramstad university of trondheim combining evidence in dictionary based probabilistic relaxation professor j kittler university of surrey matching methods professor a sanfeliu polytechnic university of catalonia workshop in connection with the conference a workshop on contextual methods in pattern recognition will be arranged on monday th by iapr tc for further information concerning the workshop contact torfinn taxt chairman tc univ of bergen n bergen norway phone fax e mail torfinn taxt cc uib no registration information the registration fee is nok the fee covers proceedings entrance to all oral and poster sessions exhibition lunches and coffee breaks get together party reception and banquet fees for accompanying persons are presented in the registration form all payments must be made payable in norwegian kroner nok by swift to xiannokktrm or bank giro service at bank account sas conference forut christiania bank og kreditkasse private cheques will not be accepted or by the following credit cards visa mastercard eurocard diners access american express please note for payment with swift and bank giro service made from abroad please add banking fee of nok please remember to state scia and your name on all money transfers registration and information the conference secretariat will be available all four days of the conference for registration and information may th in the sas hotel may th th at the university exhibition an exhibition of relevant literature will be arranged publishers are invited to exhibit their products a visit to local companies and institutions involved in the field mostly remote sensing will be arranged accommodation reservation for hotel accommodation can be made on the registration form the scia conference secretariat at sas luftreisebyraa att bodil lauritsen will provide hotel accommodation for the participants social events monday may th get together party included in the conference fee for delegates nok for accompanying persons tuesday may th fishing trip the tour will last for hours and hopefully the midnight sun will visit us on board the boat there will be music food and drink by choice we bring fishing rods and it will be possible to have our own fish prepared on board nok spouse programme visit by cable car to storsteinen meters above sea level visit to the arctic cathedral and visit to tromsoe museum nok wednesday may th due to the cancellation of the svalbard flight we will arrange a visit to the beerhall nok including beer and food spouse programme visit to a fishfarm in the surroundings of tromsoe nok thursday may th banquet included in the conference fee for delegates accompanying persons nok spouse programme visit to the northern lights planetarium and the polar museum nok the spouse programs need a minimum of participants to be arranged post conference tours with visit to lyngen or finnmark and norh cape will also be arranged for more information about the social program and the post conference tours see the registration form and information included with the registration form weather and dress the weather in tromsoe in late may can be everything from hour sunshine with a maximum temperature of degrees celsius to snowstorms with temperatures below freezing it is therefore recommended to bring some warmer clothes local information the population is approximately in tromsoe you can take part in many activities from mountaineering in the midnight sun to late night fun in international restaurants and bars an afternoon local beer in the beerhall of the world s northernmost brewery is also recommended the th scandinavian conference on image analysis scia will be held at the university campus at the world s northernmost university there will be conference buses going to the campus from within walking distances of all the hotels more detailed information about the locations and transport will be available at the conference hotels travel information tromsoe airport at langnes is only minutes drive from the centre of tromsoe the travelling distance from oslo is hr minutes sas conference support tromsoe offers airticket services for the conference in addition to all standard terms full and reduced fare tickets from europe and overseas reduced fares require that you stay in scandinavia the night between saturday and sunday we can offer additional conference fares for sas flights from sas destinations within scandinavia and reduced fares on norwegian domestic flights if you want to make use of this service please contact bodil lauritsen at the conference secretariat conference secretariat sas luftreisebyraa tromsoe att bodil lauritsen p o box n tromsoe norway phone fax note that reduced airticket fares can not be obtained on flights to scandinavia if you don t stay the night between saturday and sunday in front of or after the conference on the other hand you don t have to stay that night in tromso to obtain reduced fares within scandinavia sas flights cut here registration form the th scandinavian conference on image analysis tromso norway may th th please use block letters or type and fill in one form for each parti cipant completed registration form for accompanying person is to be attached to the registration form of the delegate mr mrs first name and surname company institution title mailing address postal code country telephone telefax delegate accompanying person please tick for right category workshop on contextual methods in pattern recognition monday may th conference fee delegates nok social events please tick for participating get together party monday th included in the conference fee for delegates accompanying person nok spouse programme tuesday may th nok spouse programme wednesday may th nok spouse programme thursday may th nok boat trip tuesday may th nok banquet thursday may th included in the conference fee for delegates accompanying person nok visit to the beerhall wednesday may th nok post conference tour lyngen nok post conference tour finnmark north cape nok we need a minimum number of participants to accomplish these tours total amount for my participation nok payment payment can be made by swift to xiannokktrm or bank giro service at bank account sas conference forut christiania bank og kreditkasse gronnegt n tromso norway private cheques will not be accepted or by credit card visa mastercard eurocard diners access american express account number expiration date signature please note for payment with swift and bank giro service made from abroad please add banking fee of nok please remember to state scia and your name on all money transfers accomodation payment to be made upon arrival weekend friday sunday deadline for cancellation of the hotel room hours before arrival if you would like us to book your accomodation in tromso please fill in date of arrival date of departure sas royal hotel single a double a weekend weekend grand nordic hotel single a double a weekend weekend with home hotel single a double a saga hotel single a double a polar hotel single a double a weekend weekend tromso hotel single a double a weekend weekend skipperhuset pension single a double a triple a hotel nord single a double a triple a private accomodation single a double a i will arrange accomodation on my own if my first choice is not available i wish to stay at airtickets sas conference support tromso offers airticket services for the conference in addition to all standard terms full and reduced fare tickets from europe and overseas reduced fares require that you stay in scandinavia the night between saturday and sunday we can offer additional conference fares for sas flights from sas destinations within scandinavia and reduced fares on norwegian domestic flights if you want to make use of this service please fill in the following point of departure and return date of departure date of return i will arrange airtickets on my own please tick for further information please contact kjell arild hogda scia local chair forut information technology ltd n tromso norway telephone telefax e mail scia conan uit no please forward this registration form to sas luftreisebyra tromso att bodil lauritsen p o box n tromso norway telephone telefax date and signature
comp.graphics	re pov ray for vax computer get the generic version for unix and vms and build it imho a vms com file to build it is supplied as the distribution comes as tar z you should either have uncompress and tar on vms or a unix flavoured machine handy usually you won t find this on ibm pc specific archives but on the better ones o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.graphics	re xv problems oops what the hell a crosspost is this have a look onto xv before saying anything more about it s power o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.graphics	picture ascii conversion i was wondering if anyone has ever seen heard of a utility that converts any type of image format gif tiff pcx bmp jpeg etc to an ascii representation i have seen some very sophiticated art in ascii format but never was i able to find the author or any program that may have converted the data from a picture format any help or leads would be great thanks in advance danny dunlavy ddunlavy casbah acns nwu edu
comp.graphics	re arts letters graphics editor in comp graphics menchett dws unr edu peter j menchetti writes does anyone on this group use this program it stacks up pretty well to corel draw and since i don t have a cdrom it was the best buy maybe someone would be interested in trading tips and tricks yes i have both arts letters and coreldraw i personally like arts letters better but there are things i like about arts letters that coreldraw doesn t do an vice versa i haven t found the perfect graphics program that does everything yet my favorite feature from coreldraw is that it imports alot of different formats arts letters does not i like the thousands of clipart available with arts letters however i do find looking them up in a book and referencing them by number to be annoying one of my major problems is that there isn t any programs available on the market for the artistically deprived betty harvey harvey oasys dt navy mil david taylor model basin adp networking and communication assessment carderock division branch naval surface warfare code center bethesda md dtmb cd nswc fax
comp.graphics	software development libs for old targa boards i am revamping some computer aided visual inspection systems which use the old at t targa board set cards to display images from a color ccd camera to a color monitor providing the option to overlay text or a crosshair no image capture or manipulation is performed just display i would like to know if there is still a source for development libraries which would allow me to embed commands in my own software to enable the camera draw crosshairs print text etc i ll be glad to pay if they are commercially available e mail if possible joe ryburn cim manager intergraph corporation manufacturing integration huntsville al
comp.graphics	re sgi sales practices was crimson was kubota announcement olson anchor esd sgi com dave olson writes but surely you don t expect a system you buy now for a five year period to be constantly upgradable over that entire five year period what s sort of interesting about this whole thread is just how much it has in common with similar threads in groups dealing with other vendor s hardware i currently deal basically with hardware from vendors apple dec and sgi and thus tend to monitor the groups about those vendor s hardware currently it seems like sgi customers are pissed at sgi about dropping support for the personal iris dec customers are pissed at dec for dropping mips support in favor of the new alpha boxes and apple customers seem to get pissed every time a new mac is introduced that s faster and cheaper than the one they just bought when i used to be a sun customer years ago i remember people being pissed at sun for leaving their and x customers out in the cold when sparc came along what s really interesting is that from what i can tell the mis folks in the basement with their es don t seem to be pissed at ibm why i have no idea either ibm really does take care of their customers better or they just have their customers brainwashed better than the smaller vendors do roy smith roy nyu edu hippocrates project department of microbiology coles nyu school of medicine first avenue new york ny this never happened to bart simpson
comp.graphics	lcd vga display please help i have an ibm compatible notebook computer with an lcd vga screen while i was working with it this morning the screen started to flicker a little which i thought was odd since i do use a surge protector for my computer and all peripherals it only did this for a second and then stopped i left the room for several minutes and when i returned the screen was completely dim not blank but very very dim the contrast slider still worked so that i could adjust it to where i could faintly make out what was on the screen but the brightness slider had absolutely no effect i was plugged in at the time i e not using the battery but i still tried switching the battery changing the power saver features etc etc all to no avail has anyone else experienced anything like this if this just means that i need to replace the screen then i guess i ll have to but i thought that the death of my lcd screen would be a little less dramatic when it eventually happened i didn t want to take it in to be repaired before i asked on the net about this because i already know what they ll say yep you gotta have this replaced and it s gonna cost you i ve only had the computer for about months is that a reasonable life cycle for a lcd display oh i guess i ought to give specifics here the brand is compudyne is this a reputable company it s a sx mhz i forget the model number exactly and i was too ticked off to write it down before coming in to work today if anyone can help me please give me any advice you might have i m not opposed to having it replaced but i d rather not if it s not absolutely necessary if you wouldn t mind please e mail me at mike mik uky edu but if you d rather post i ll be checking back here in a couple of days btw if the answer to this question is already in a faq somewhere feel free to flame away but i would ask that you also include the location and name of the faq if you don t mind thanks in advance for any help mike mattone mike mik uky edu
comp.graphics	re sgi sales practices was crimson was kubota announcement in article rr c u calvin nyu edu roy mchip med nyu edu roy smith writes what s really interesting is that from what i can tell the mis folks in the basement with their es don t seem to be pissed at ibm why i have no idea either ibm really does take care of their customers better or they just have their customers brainwashed better than the smaller vendors do no mis folks have infinite budgets of death and they also get parts of their budget allocated upgrades maintenance and new purchases and a lot of ibm mainframe purchases are actually leases and so is the software basically the engineers who have tight budgets i e the coders and designers of a company bitch and moan when they drop on a sparc only to see a faster machine appear a year later mis types upgrade once every years and their costs are amortized and depreciated over a longer period and the budget office justifies the expense because they actually use the machines for accounting payroll etc now if the budget office was dependant on the engineers for some reason like payroll and accounts you d sure as hell see every engineer with a new cray on his desktop every year brian
comp.graphics	fractel trees i m working on my senior project here at uf florida the project requires fractel trees i m interested in either psuedo or real code just about anything will help perhaps some good books on the subject could help too mail will reach at quartz iriquois eel ufl edu thanks bill devore
comp.graphics	oh make up your mind was re xv problems in article rqisi rhj cc tut fi jk lehtori cc tut fi kouhia juhana writes in article apr nessie mcc ac uk c c lilley mcc ac uk writes in article rohjc avt cc tut fi jk lehtori cc tut fi kouhia juhana writes i wrote something about making color modifications quickly with bit quantized images and only at the saving the image to file process we have to make the modifications to the bit image this makes sense because the main use of xv is only viewing images doing many changes to image we should keep all modifications in a buffer and then before making the operations to bit image we should simplify the operation list for unnecessary operations think about what you are saying here the bit image is quantised down to bits so many similar colours are mapped onto a single palette colour this colour gets modified in fairly arbitrary ways you then want to apply these modifications back to the bit file so you have to find which colours mapped to this one palette colour i suppose you don t know what about we have discussed we discussed about error s in xv which shows images only as bit and my suggestion above works perfectly with it look be consistent first you post something that seems to suggest that you see xv being an bit program as some sort of error so i post and asy it is not a bug it is meant to be like that so you post and say it is not a bug you never said it was i have misunderstood etc now you are saying we discussed about error s in xv which shows images only as bit if you would make up your mind what you are claiming it would make the discussion a lot easier so far i have seen a colormap editing window in xv that is there must be a colormap anyway the problems you present are exist anyway and i didn t tried to solve them at all because i would not make such problems to my programs in the first place eh sorry i don t understand what you are saying here i am aware that english is not your native language and have tried hard to fathom your meaning but this paragraph defeats me gamma and color corrections are easily done to bit image as i presented there s no need make tricks from bit quantized image back to bit image yes as i originally said global changes are easily possible but this statement contradicts what you said earlier i wrote something about making color modifications quickly with bit quantized images and only at the saving the image to file process we have to make the modifications to the bit image how would you suggest doing colour editing on a bit file how would you group related colours to edit them together only global changes could be done unless the software were very different and much more complicated ok you re writing about situation that user want edit images as bit and user want edit individual colors your questions by the way jumps off the discussion a bit no i don t think so actually you were talking about loading a bit image into xv by quantising manipulating the colours in the colour editor then somewhow applying these changes to the bit file when you exit xv xv lets you edit individual colours where is this sudden jumping off the topic my solution doesn t work because there s no colormap withing real bit image yes i am aware there is no colourmap in a bit file you see user see bit image going back to bit is silly i do not understand what this statement is supposed to mean about changing individual colors in bit quantized rasterized image changing individual colors in colormap is useless in most cases if the image is quantized and rasterized small change may make serious errors to anywhere in the image what are you saying xv allows this feature but i don t recommend to use it with the mentioned type images ah now we see thew problem first you want to extend xv to allow editing of bit previews of bit images then i point out problems with this now you are saying there is no problem because you personally happen not to use those parts of the program that cause the problem moreover xv is not a paint program you can only make those global changes not sure what you are saying here certainly one can make local changes in full bit xv changing individual colors sounds like paint program job if person have bit screen there s need for tricks to get the original bit image modified because user don t see full bit image there s need to make approximations and it is not possible to modify individual colors but individual pixels or pixel groups if image is rasterized to select indiavidual color there could be x cursor window which shows true color image in cursor window area selecting individual color is possible from that yes that is one possible approach i would find a program that took such an approach clumsy however ok i don t have thought very much bit painting programs never seen such in good view and are not planned to make such not to mention bit painting program in bit screen well here we agree you have not thought it through very much you don t seem to have a consistent point to make and contradict yourself from one post to the next ok we all have off days perhaps you should step back and think this one through yes again what is was wrong with xv it saved bit quantized rasterized images as bit jpegs jpeg is not designed for that as i said in the last post jpeg is a compression algorithm it is a way of saving disk space by trading off quality against compression i fail to see what the problem is you have not proposed any workable alternatives also human expect that bit will be saved as bit image speak for yourself you are the only person i have met or spoken to who having quantised a bit image down to bits expects this process to somehow reverse when the file is saved keeping all modificvations that heve been made to the bit image palette perhaps that is why you yused the singular say person would like to crop part of the image and save it then it is expected that the image still is the same look next time you import a bit image into xv look carefully at the main control panel it tells you how many colours have been allocated to the bit image xv makes it abundantly clear that you are not editing the original bit file you are the only person who claims this is confusing so xv were designed without thinking about human interface and how human expect the program work design error is a design error the same as a bug read my lips xv is a program for viewing and modifying bit images it lets you import other images it shows i would say a good deal of thought about the human interface and everyone else seems to use it happily for the purpose it was designed for it makes no false claims i have heard xv were designed first for bit images files but it were not good idea to take full bit images without making major change to the original design if you would come up with a solid logical well argued and lucid description of precisely how these proposed extensions would work feel free to post them so far you have not done so so even all screen images are bit the processed images and saved images could have been bit very easily instead of bit argh after all this a comment like that very easily ok go ahead and code it if it is so easy or alternatively look up the terms import and non reversible transformation before anybody will make a note yes i may as well make a lift where up means that the lift goes down and down means that the lift goes up and put a note on this design solution to the manuals however even the manuals tells the correct situation it doesn t solve the problem americans the lift is just an example i think this is a bit of an exageration what you are actually saying is you got into a lift elevator if you are in the states and mistakenly pressed the down button to go up everyone else had no problem now you are trying to sue the manufacturer well my text may be a bit hard reading you bet hopefully you suggeeded to read it mostly leaving aside the language issue however it betrays some very wooly thinking as you yourself admit which is the same in any language go think some more chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester uk m pl internet c c lilley mcc ac uk voice fax janet c c lilley uk ac mcc
comp.graphics	drivers for diamond viper card i ve been away for a couple of weeks and have become out of touch with the latest information on the diamond viper card does anyone know if diamond has come out with any vesa driver updates lately also i was wondering what the latest windows driver version is up to now thanks in advance dan daniel t hotopp internet hotopp ami bwi wec com antenna microwave integration w vax tron hotopp ami westinghouse electric corp voice
comp.graphics	re lcd vga display i ve only had the computer for about months is that a reasonable life cycle for a lcd display my toshiba t lcd cga died in months replaced under the month warranty fortunately when it died it died instantly and completely
comp.graphics	surface contour plot ultrix x r to plot surfaces and contour plots from a set of x y z i would really appreciate any hint on the name of such a plotting program and where to find it thanks for your help
comp.graphics	full color image editor for sgi workstations i am happy to announce the first public release of the bit program an interactive full color image viewer and editor based on sgi gl besides typical touchup tasks such as crop rotate smooth etc bit offers some unique features not available in similar programs such as text and vector support and the separation of text and image the following is the relevant sections from the man page pre release of may bit l name bit bitmap image touchup for sgi workstations description bit is an interactive full color image viewer and editor based on silicon graphics gl as a full color program bit handles images of both bits and color index in a natural and efficient manner as an image viewer bit allows list of images to be displayed in their original type bits or color index in any order and in any of the many built in styles of display you can walk up and down the list using mouse and keyboard or you can let bit do the walk for you the slideshow with the pan and zoom features large images can be viewed in full without being limited by the window or screen size as an image editor bit performs a large number of image editing and processing tasks accurately and efficiently it keeps information loss at any stage of the editing process at an absolute minimum by performing subpixel sampling automatically while conserving the input image type whenever possible to avoid unnecessary promotion and or quantization of input images you can also cut a piece of an image and paste it into another in addition arbitrarily colored and sized text and simple geometric figures can be rendered on top of an image for annotation with the option to make them part of the bitmap or output separately to take advantage of the higher printer resolutions e g postscript bit can also be used as a graphical user interface to many existing image processing programs by defining external bindings which in essence turn command line oriented programs into bit subfunctions and can be accessed by a press of a button and best of all the processed image will be read back and displayed immediately convolution using exter nally defined matrices of arbitrary order can be performed dynamically giving great flexibility in processing an image features bit performs all of its image manipulations interactively with a continuous progress report and once the processing is complete the processed image will be displayed current features include o rotates an image by an arbitrary angle with the option of anti aliasing and filling the rotated out region with an arbitrary color o scales an image by arbitrary factors in x and or y directions with the option of subpixel sampling o renders text of arbitrary color size or orientation on top of an image with the option of rendering directly into the raster or saving the text and raster separately such as into a postscript file to take advantage of a higher printer resolution besides normal text strings many predefined special symbols can be input conveniently as in tex e g alpha small beta produces greek alphabet alpha followed by a slightly smaller greek alphabet beta o presents graphically the histogram of an image o performs arbitrary to pixel transformation the transformation function can be specified interactively and can be of arbitrary forms further the transformation can be applied to rgb channels separately or simultaneously and to the entire image or a portion of it many difficult tasks such as thresholding can be accomplished rather easily by to transformation in combination with the avai lability of graphical histograms of the image o places simple geometric figures sgfs e g arrows circles trian gles etc of arbitrary color size and orientation into an image at arbitrary locations addressed either in absolute pixels or in some user definable coordinate system units with the option of rendering directly into the raster or save the sgfs and raster separately e g postscript file all sgfs can be scaled in x and y directions independently or simultaneously this is how to get an ellipse from a circle o performs edge detection in combination with image histograms and to transformation very accurate result can be obtained o performs histogram equalization o performs convolution with externally defined square matrices of arbitrary order o crops a rectangular portion of an image o cuts and pastes across images o magnifies any portion of an image by any amount o displays a list of images in sequence with a user specifiable pause interval between images slideshow o measures rgb intensities of a pixel at any location or all pixels along an arbitrary line with the result presented as rgb intensities or as an intensity vs distance plot o performs image type conversions o converts image formats o smoothes an image special convolution o filters an image by external programs and read the filtered image back and display it o modify an individual pixel s rgb values o performs fft on the entire image or a portion of it and display the resulting power spectra o spray and brush paint in full color unavailable in this pre release supported formats o iris rgb native to sgi iris o jpeg jfif format o compuserv gif o pnm portable any map including ppm pgm and pbm o xbm x window bitmap o tiff o postscript write only hardware requirements any sgi workstation that supports rgbmode including indigoes where to get it anonymous ftp to monte svec uh edu pub bit bitxxx tar z where xxx is the version number current version is read src readme for installation instructions after unpacking acknowledgement jpeg support is based on the independent jpeg groups s library version forms library developed by mark overmars is used for gui both jpeg and forms library are included in this release bit is the program you will ever need to view and annotate images the built in editing features will satisfy most of your editing needs in addition the external filter and dynamical kernel will utilize any program you already have so try it and you will like it as always any comments bug reports are welcome
comp.graphics	stop this argument xv is bit was re oh make up your stop stop stop stop this argument is getting silly xv now handles bit images without quantizing them all these arguments are moot null and void please stop quibbling about a now obsolete version of the program besides you can now generate tons of verbiage about the new shareware licensing it uses instead mike mike ressler infrared photon jockey ressler cougar jpl nasa gov less science by dead guys ms dos ms dos windoze dr dos os linux x finally getting something useful done with my pet
comp.graphics	giant software yardsale software retail sale price graphics corel draw aldus photo styler image in color photo finish of these image in scan paint image in full pack picture publisher image prep snap pro images inc publisher s paintbrush deluxe paint enchance softtype font workshop vista pro optibase workshop gfa cad utilities x tree gold for win tnt anti virus salvation amish utilities multimedia smart text music clips audio tracks spinnaker plus mac spinnaker plus pc ask me multi media make your point madison ave interface mac mr sound effects music bytes tempra show storyboard plus programming m s windows dev kit full windows maker pro ms c top speed modula business the art of negotiating telemagic full impact mac approach database ascend games nfl pro league football eco saurus hardware modem baud assorted joysticks willows vga tv amiga trac ball misc the wedding planner software yard sale fri sat sun to e mail pbenson cscihp ecst csuchico edu location nunneley rd paradise ca phone terms cash check charge visa or mc accepted
comp.graphics	re oh make up your mind was re xv problems in article apr nessie mcc ac uk lilley v cgu mcc ac uk chris lilley writes re a true bit xv if you would come up with a solid logical well argued and lucid description of precisely how these proposed extensions would work feel free to post them don t mind if i do as someone who would love to see xv go to bit this would be plenty for me a xv can load a bit image and display it in all it s bit glory on bit x displays b all other operations crop dither smooth etc are not supported on bit images how hard would this be ken fishkin fishkin xerox com
comp.graphics	re anyone know use rayshade out there fineman stein u washington edu twixt your toes writes i m using rayshade on the u w computers here and i d like input from other users and perhaps swap some ideas i could post uuencoded gifs here or ray code if anyone s interested i m having trouble coming up with colors that are metallic i e brass steel from the rgb values sorry i m not a rayshade user but hey it looks like this group could use some traffic my guess is that metallic isn t a color in the rgb sense rather it s a matter of how the surface reflects light i m not sure what property metallic materials have that makes them recognizable as such but i m pretty sure any color material can look metallic
comp.graphics	d spline fit does anyone out there know of a site that might have a d spline fit routine useful for interpolation thanks for any help craig morioka craig cognet ucla edu
comp.graphics	what is do someone please fill me in on what do thanks bh
comp.graphics	re sci files and sco files in article apr daimi aau dk rued daimi aau dk writes hello there a week ago a guy asked what a sco file was sc character regards rued yes me why alex kiernan akiernan falcon demon co uk
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of silly rak crosfield co uk richard kirk writes it s the number of legs on a centipede so now you know is that the number of left legs or both left and right dave bushong wang laboratories inc amateur radio callsign kz o project leader recognition products kz o n ary noca ca na internet dbushong wang com
comp.graphics	looking for info on quadratic spline to bezier conversion hi i am looking for an algorithm or pointers to any papers on how to convert quadratic splines to cubic splines or beizeirs if source is available in the public domain please let me know thanks very much ks krishnan seetharaman e mail kseethar cs ulowell edu phone w snail mail department of computer science umass lowell lowell ma
comp.graphics	mode h does anyone know how to access and or display multiple pages in mode h while still maintaining the byte per pixel memory organization examples in c or assembly would be appreciated thanks scott
comp.graphics	re viewing jpeg files there are jpeg viewers that are windows based and therefore need no hardware specific drivers beyond those provided in windows i got mine from the library of congress in connection with their online exhibit of books from the vatican library see a previous message in this newgroup about that gerald edgar gwe atc boeing com the opinions expressed in this not may not represent those of his employer
comp.graphics	re looking for hot mac d anim software in c zd mxp news udel edu stern brahms udel edu garland stern writes i am interested in finding d animation programs for the mac i am especially interested in any programs that don t exist in a pc port and are so good that they would make me go buy a mac do any such exist thanks in advance howdy i think you would be interested in infini d for the mac there is no dos or windows version it s quite an amazing program some of the features bevel text timeline based animation sequencer realtime bounding box preview object linking phong shading ray tracing bounding box shading wireframe shading ghourad shading flat shading anti aliasing none low medium high environment maps quicktime support wrap a qt movie around an object procedural surfaces composed surfaces for layering surfaces alpha channel support import eps dxf and swivel d files export dxf and swivel d files spline based animation animation assistant for creating smooth movements and other stuff object morphing surfaces and bevels morph too and lots more that i can t remember right now anyway it s not as expensive as some of the other animation rendering packages i think you can get it for around from macwarehouse they also have educational discounts well hope that helps a bit see ya brendan duddridge internet umduddr ccu umanitoba ca america online brendand
comp.graphics	re acm siggraph and acm in general in article apr koko csustan edu rsc altair csustan edu steve cunningham writes and no siggraph has not skipped town we re preparing the best siggraph conference yet speaking of siggraph i just went through the ordeal of my annual registration for siggraph and re upping of membership in the acm last night and was i ever grossed out the new prices for membership are almost highway robbery for example siggraph basic fee went from last year to this year for the same thing a increase those facile enough to arrange a trip to the annual conference could reduce this to by selecting siggraph lite which means siggraph is charging an additional or so for the proceedings and the art show catalog essentially toplas went up in cost way outstripping the current inflation rate basic sigchi fees remainded the same but whereas before sigchi membership included uist and human factors conferences proceedings these are now an extra cost option bundling that back into the basic rate equivalent services have gone up in cost sigois membership cost has up but they ve also split out the computer supported cooperative work conference proceedings that used to be included with membership adding that cost back in means this sig also has doubled its membership fee what really galls me is that the acm sent out brochures a couple months ago touting their new approach to providing member services and tried to make it sound like they were offering new services but with the exception of a couple like siggraph all the plus services appear to be just splitting the costs into smaller piles so that they don t look so big but their recommended changes to my membership would have me paying more than last year for a increase in services measured by cost not by value and curiously a inflation rate on the publications i got last year is anyone out there as galled by this extortion as i am robert reed home animation ltd robert slipknot rain com first court west linn or shooting yourself in the foot in various languages and systems motif you spend days writing a uil description of your foot the trajectory the bullet and the intricate scrollwork on the ivory handles of the gun when you finally get around to pulling the trigger the gun jams
comp.graphics	re corel draw or harvard draw larry landwehr larry ducktales med ge com wrote my wife wants to publish a newsletter she s no artist so she intends to use comercial clipart and customise it a bit by drawing a circle or a box around it etc we have mspublisher for manipulating text but it is not suitable for doing much with graphics so she needs a more specialised tool right now she s looking at corel draw and harvard draw there seem to be more books in the stores on corel than on harvard so she s inclined to go with corel on the basis of popularity can anyone give us an informed opinion on which package would be more suitable or if there is an even better alternative available if this is a faq please withhold the flames and just send the location of the faq document thanks go with coreldraw pcmag just did a review a couple of issues ago and adobe illustrator and coreldraw were picked as the best three ps s is it ok to use clip art from harvard draw or whatever for commercial purposes other two deleted as far as i know it s okay you d have to read the licence agreement that comes with the package to be sure tmc tmc spartan ac brocku ca
comp.graphics	company info for graphics software within the next several months i ll be looking for a job in computer graphics software i m in need of info on graphics software companies i ve checked the faq the resource list and siggraph org haven t found anything the last computer graphics career handbook that i m aware of was published in it has a list of companies in it but no tremendously specific information on any of them can people please steer me towards more current and in depth informational resources thanks i ll post a summary if there s interest brandon the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill the campus office for information technology or the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu or
comp.graphics	gif to targa krzysztof muchorowski was asking about gif to tga conversion so that he could use dta to convert the tga files to fli animation files krzysztof update your copy of dta to a more recent release the current is g later versions of dta can read gif files dkm
comp.graphics	universal vesa driver some time ago about month there was a bit of discussion about a universal vesa driver for bit cards it was in the file uvesa zip well i can t find it does anyone know where it is gorilla something something au and what sort of cards it works for also would it be pushing my luck to ask for someone to post it to some appropriate group kingsley turner nsw australia
comp.graphics	re message for cgcad bart inescn pt sunil gupta cs ssg brunel ac uk wrote i cant get through to the author of rtrace his site is inaccessible can he upload the new version somewhere else please problem solved its on wuarchive graphics graphics ray rtrace why does it seg fault so often
comp.graphics	re real d i heard a friend who just return from nab from las vegas confirm that realsoft will be releasing a windows version of real d this summer he was told that the rendering speed on the dx isn t as fast as a however he was also told that they are switching from microsoft c to watcom to gain more speed for people who is looking for a powerful d animation software for pc the wait shouldn t be too long real d is absolutely the most powerful and flexible d package out there that sells for less than p s i heard a indigo version is also under development
comp.graphics	source to create fli or flc does anyone know if the source is available to create fli or flc animations i would ideally like dll s for windows but would settle for c source i ve heard they might be available on amiga forums somewhere the libraries currently distributed by autodesk aawin aaplay do not have fli creation capability only playback any pointers would be appreciated thanks andrew hudson abh genesis nred ma us
comp.graphics	video speed i am using an ibm dx with eisa and local bus and i need to get a local bus video card the only hitch is that i need one that will allow me to do the fastest anims or flics from ram i have megs of ram in meg simms i am using d studio from autodesk and imagine from impulse they both write out in the flc format so does anyone know what would be the best card for showing fast anims from ram ie like the orchid diamond stealth viper ati etc any help would be appreciated i am trying to circumvent the single frame route email me at trb ra msstate edu or just post back up here thanks
comp.graphics	re what has happened to dkb l trearn hi david k drum writes listserv told me that the list doesn t exist so i got a global list of groups from the listserv and nothing i grepped every string i could think of if frank ville saari andre beck or anyone else who s a regular on dkb l can tell me what is going on please do i just sent a mail to turgut kalfaoglu sp the maintainer of the list and asked him what s going on if the list is for whatever reason really dead we might have to put up a list ourselves but for now i want to wait for his answer frank ps and i just thought this would be just another period of silence
comp.graphics	help quicktime system problem i am unable to run quicktime on my iivx running system and i don t know why if there is a better group to post this to please let me know quicktime works fine but when i try to run a movie in any application that supports it like simple player canvas or word i get the message sorry a system error occurred application unimplemented trap continue restart i press continue and get the application unknown has unexpectedly quit because an error of type occurred substitute simple player or canvas or word for application and the messages are always the same if i restart with quicktime i have no problems any suggestions i am at a loss thanks in advance oh yah please email me as i don t check the newsgroups very often dan bradley deb uxa cso uiuc edu
comp.graphics	fractal terrain generator does anyone know of a fractal terrain generator for mac something i could hopefully import into a d program like swivel or stratavision i know infini d has built in capabilities but i don t have access to infini d i downloaded two programs from umich in graphics fractals but both were from and crashed under system i think they were black and white anyway please email me if you know of anything as i don t check the newsgroups very often thanks in advance dan bradley deb uxa cso uiuc edu
comp.graphics	where did the hacker ethic go a great many computer programmers read dr dobb s journal in a recent issue there was a paragraph in an article that pained me greatly to read it said there s nothing wrong if microsoft setting the standards for the computer industry the industry needs an ibm for the s where has the hacker ethic gone not the cracker ethic which is something entirely different and bad but the hacker ethic which tells us to value the free distribution of information and yield to the hands on imperative why is it that people and corporations like bill gates ibm and intel are able to have a virtual dead lock on the computer industry why is it that if a person like myself posts messages to usenet on how to get into the little nooks crannies and idiosyncrasies of a computer system they are not given any useful information by those who know just a badmouthing or are completely ignored why is it that people like steve jobs have to abandon their efforts to make truly innovative products i ask those of you who call yourselves hackers why is this and further how can you let it go on it is a fact that the computer industry has changed the world and shall continue to do so for a long time to come it has allowed the propagation of information in a volume unheard of even twenty years ago and has made this world even smaller than it was before i shudder to think what that world will be like if the corporations are allowed to have their way perpetuating more drivel like the windows and the ibm product line on the computer using public that is not to say i am against business per se people who profit off of innovative intelligent creative designs do not bother me in fact i applaud it that is the american way but those who manage to sell kludgy uncreative systems to the public and profit off of them are the ones who are the problem and unfortunately because they have enough money to make up for blunt stupidity they can keep doing it for a very long time i put it to you thus where has the hacker ethic gone if it still exists where and if it does exist why are those who call themselves hackers allowing this to perpetuate itself why are they not creating new innovative interesting ideas to stop the sos from maintaining its choke hold on the computer industry i await with interest what will probably be a resounding silence pstlb acad alaska edu revenge is a dish best served cold szechuan death khan singh star trek ii the wrath of khan
comp.graphics	re lcd vga display mike mattone mike nx mik uky edu wrote has anyone else experienced anything like this if this just means that i need to replace the screen then i guess i ll have to but i thought that the death of my lcd screen would be a little less dramatic when it eventually happened i didn t want to take it in to be repaired before i asked on the net about this because i already know what they ll say yep you gotta have this replaced and it s gonna cost you i ve only had the computer for about months only that s a long time echoing above posting the way the market is going nowadays your machine s obsolete two weeks before you buy it sounds like you ll have to sink some money into it for repair but that s sometimes necessary for equipment is that a reasonable life cycle for a lcd display i think months with nothing wrong until now is quite reasonable if you had bought a compaq or toshiba you might have reasonably expected the machine to last longer before something went wrong but that s a moot point perhaps sandy santra trevor netcom com berkeley california trevor well sf ca us
comp.graphics	re lcd vga display in article c bab llt vcd hp com edmoore vcd hp com ed moore writes i ve only had the computer for about months is that a reasonable life cycle for a lcd display my toshiba t lcd cga died in months replaced under the month warranty fortunately when it died it died instantly and completely i worked in support for a while at a company and we had problems with several toshiba s in a short space of time they were all around years old some screens went completely as above others were just dodgy this happened to about or out of maybe they were fairly reliable up to then and i don t think it was a special problem with tosh s no link to the company so i would think that months may not be unreasonable just unlucky regards kate kate kingman cstxqbe dcs warwick ac uk i leave the typos to the tall blonde esudb csv warwick ac uk occupy all the bored people out there
comp.graphics	creating fli flc animation files i am looking for a means to add fli and flc animation creation to a windows application i was hoping for something along the lines of aawin or aaplay by autodesk but for the creation of these delta compressed animations i have flilib but this seems to be coded for the large memory model of dos with turbo c ideally i would like a dll or medium model object library but would settle for anything really i ve seen other windows apps with fli flc creation did they hack the flilib code into submission any pointers would be appreciated please send mail directly to me and i will summarize the results if there is interest andrew hudson abh genesis nred ma us
comp.graphics	re where did the hacker ethic go in article may aurora alaska edu pstlb aurora alaska edu writes i put it to you thus where has the hacker ethic gone if it still exists where and if it does exist why are those who call themselves hackers allowing this to perpetuate itself why are they not creating new innovative interesting ideas to stop the sos from maintaining its choke hold on the computer industry how about the gnu people handing out very good free software i ve also distributed two decent sized programs myself the go player fumiko at ftp u washington edu and the genetic neural network programmer cerebrum somewhere out there i ve only had time to write these programs because of scholarships and grants the intended benefit to society or a loophole in the system peter dudey kyu lisp subguru order of the golden parentheses finger reformed church of james eric the half a bee dipped in curry me a shadowy flight into the dangerous world of a man who does not exist please mail me plastic spaceships state st c salem or
comp.graphics	re where did the hacker ethic go where did the hacker ethic go we hackers of the s and are now comfortably employed and supporting families the next generation takes the radical lead now don t look for radicalism among us old ones we re gone grady netcom com ef e ad d d c f fc ac f d f e f
comp.graphics	avs presentation university of toronto instructional and research computing is sponsoring a technical presentation on visualization software a d v a n c e d v i s u a l s y s t e m s a v s s o f t w a r e pm pm thursday may sandford fleming building room advanced visual systems will present this technical seminar on avs the world s leading visualization software package avs is a point and click module driven easy to use product that produces full color two or three dimensional rendered scenes for interactive observation it is supported on all current unix risc platforms from sun sgi ibm h p dg and dec it also runs under dec vms avs is in its fourth year on the street and is very mature all fields of science engineering medicine and even business applications now use avs this seminar will focus on its many features in technical detail during a half hour slide presentation following a question period there will be a live demonstration using a sun sparcstation in addition a new avs program called campus will be introduced at this meeting also discussed will be the international avs center which provides an on line repository of over graphics modules at the north carolina supercomputer center in raliegh nc avs has imbedded tools to write one s own customized modules should these not be available with avs or from avs international s p e a k e r s the scheduled speaker for this presentation is mr paul ecklund of ecklund associates the distributor of avs in canada t h i s p r e s e n t a t i o n i s o p e n t o t h e p u b l i c
comp.graphics	re adobe photo shop type software for unix x motif platforms in article c w xb iv world std com sci image processing comp graphics wdm world std com wayne michael writes i have been searching for a quality image enhancement and manipulation package for unix x motif platforms that is comparable to adobe photo shop for the mac stuff deleted i understand that adobe is working on making photoshop available for the sgi indigo but that is just rumor and i wouldn t bet on it until i see it but they are going to release illustrator for the sgi real soon now charles boesel diablo creative if pro for and con against cboesel diablo uu holonet net then what s the opposite of progress work what else congress
comp.graphics	re oh make up your mind was re xv problems in article apr nessie mcc ac uk c c lilley mcc ac uk writes xv allows this feature but i don t recommend to use it with the mentioned type images ah now we see thew problem first you want to extend xv to allow editing of bit previews of bit images then i point out problems with this now you are saying there is no problem because you personally happen not to use those parts of the program that cause the problem see previous article on this debate for the rests i can see xv agree with my view in cases you don t even i say my personal opinion as above it doesn t mean that it is not most obvious thing please if you use my previous writings as contradicting argument please do read them you have not saw them at all you just refered to text from which i wrote something and you make hard decisions from that without reading what exactly i have written it is really hard read when one writes a reply line by line method and don t understand include previously written material with the new sentences to give them meaning you seem to be one such you also start replying to my articles even you don t understand what is going on you ask me repeatedly to decsribe my views what were wrong with xv even i posted them within the article you did reply to believe me it is not nice to get flamed specially when i know that you have not read my article carefully in the first place xv and jpeg faq and users i have written to agree me with the places you didn t i m sure you just didn t undertand what about i wrote we can blame my writing skills in english for that or better stop the discussion and check what new ideas xv gives i allready mailed one to bradley juhana kouhia
comp.graphics	re fractal terrain generator deb uxa cso uiuc edu daniel e bradley writes does anyone know of a fractal terrain generator for mac something i could hopefully import into a d program like swivel or stratavision i know infini d has built in capabilities but i don t have access to infini d i downloaded two programs from umich in graphics fractals but both were from and crashed under system i think they were black and white anyway please email me if you know of anything as i don t check the newsgroups very often thanks in advance dan bradley deb uxa cso uiuc edu yes i have written something that creates meshed fractal terrain surfaces for exactly the purpose you require importing into d modelling packages be warned the data content is high and brings many packages to their knees we use it primarily for microstation but it exports dxf as well as other formats so you should be ok you can get it from my ftp mirror site in the us it is wuarchive wustl edu my stuff is located in the mirrors architec directory please ftp the readme file first paul d bourke school of architecture property planning pdbourke ccu auckland ac nz the university of auckland ph x private bag fax auckland new zealand paul d bourke school of architecture property planning pdbourke ccu auckland ac nz the university of auckland ph x private bag fax auckland new zealand
comp.graphics	direct acess to video memory hi i m looking for information on how to directly manipulate video memory i have an application that i would like to use this for because it is much faster than going through the bios i know that video memory ispart of the system area above the first k so i guess i am looking to find out exactly what section of memory it is and how it is layed out thanks regards gordon rogers gnr psuvm psu edu void signature void
comp.graphics	re is there an ftp achive for usgs terrain data in article apr welchgate welch jhu edu danj welchgate welch jhu edu dan jacobson writes a lot of interesting stuff about gopher deleted if you ve never heard of gopher don t worry it s free and on the net write me a note if you d like information on how to get started best of luck dan jacobson danj welchgate welch jhu edu i ve heard of it but lost the intro posting that came out a while back could you post it again i think it s of general interest ben ben olasov olasov cs columbia edu
comp.graphics	re universal vesa driver kintur scorch apana org au kingsley turner writes some time ago about month there was a bit of discussion about a universal vesa driver for bit cards it was in the file uvesa zip well i can t find it does anyone know where it is gorilla something something au and what sort of cards it works for also would it be pushing my luck to ask for someone to post it to some appropriate group kingsley turner nsw australia host swdsrv edvz univie ac at location pc dos graphics file rw r r mar uvesa zip host plaza aarnet edu au location micros pc garbo pc screen file r r r apr uvesa zip location micros pc oak graphics file r r r mar uvesa zip host godzilla cgl rmit oz au location kjb mgl file rw r r mar uvesa zip host nic switch ch location mirror msdos graphics file rw rw r mar uvesa zip location software pc simtel graphics file rw rw r mar uvesa zip host ipc rvs uni hannover de location pub msdos koeln graphics egavga file rw r r apr uvesa zip host sun urz uni heidelberg de location pub msdos simtel graphics file rw rw r mar uvesa zip host athene uni paderborn de location pcsoft msdos graphics file rw r r mar uvesa zip host compute cc ncsu edu location mirrors wustl mirrors msdos graphics file rw r r mar uvesa zip host rigel acs oakland edu location pub msdos graphics file rw r r mar uvesa zip host pc usl edu location pub msdos video and graphics file rw r r mar uvesa zip host isfs kuis kyoto u ac jp location mirrors simtel msdos graphics file rw rw r mar uvesa zip file rw rw r mar uvesa zip host ftp uu net location systems ibmpc msdos simtel graphics file rw rw r mar uvesa zip lance norskog thinman netcom com data is not information is not knowledge is not wisdom
comp.graphics	d graphics software company info within a few months i ll be looking for a job in d computer graphics software i m in need of info on companies that do it there s nothing in any of the faq s for this group and nothing at siggraph org at least i couldn t find anything the last computer graphics career handbook was dated had info on companies but nothing specific on any of them can people please direct me towards more current and detailed sources of information i ll post a summary of sources if there s interest also could you please e mail me our news server is on the fritz thanks brandon the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill the campus office for information technology or the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu or
comp.graphics	re d graphics software company info i believe many people will be happy to have this information so please post it to the comp graphics thanks changyaw
comp.graphics	re adobe photo shop type software for unix x motif platforms in article b b r diablo uucp diablo uucp cboesel charles boesel writes in article c w xb iv world std com sci image processing comp graphics wdm world std com wayne michael writes i have been searching for a quality image enhancement and manipulation package for unix x motif platforms that is comparable to adobe photo shop for the mac stuff deleted i understand that adobe is working on making photoshop available for the sgi indigo but that is just rumor and i wouldn t bet on it until i see it but they are going to release illustrator for the sgi real soon now charles boesel diablo creative if pro for and con against cboesel diablo uu holonet net then what s the opposite of progress work what else congress i was at an adobe seminar conference propaganda forum whatever you want to call it a couple months ago where they announced that display postscript was going to be included in the next release of sun s os presumably solaris sun was going to drop their development of newsprint and in return for this adobe was going to port illustrator and photoshop to sun other than the articles that appeared in the trade journals immediately after i haven t heard a peep about it i hope it s still in the works david farley the university of chicago library east th street jrl dgf midway uchicago edu chicago illinois
comp.graphics	need recommendations on imaging workstations i need recommendations on imaging workstations as a minimum i have the following requirements high resolution graphics black and white for display of fax images support the display of multiple simulataneous windows fax image emulation window to ibm host etc high speed network interface for image data etc mb token ring ethernet etc mouse any information experience would be appreciated thanks car
comp.graphics	re looking for polygon convexifier does anyone know where i can find a code which would take concave polygons and break them up into a set of convex polygons o i also would like code or algorithms to do this in fact i am interested in sources for code and or algorithms that convert d graphical objects into other d graphical objects that will render into the same image i e bezier curves to b splines or splines to circular arc segments or b splines to polgons etc michael dillon internet mpdillon halcyon halcyon com c powerhouse fidonet rr armstrong bc v e b voice canada bbs
comp.graphics	wanna scan bit colr picture my bit color dpi fladbed scanner can do the job for you gif tiff pcx bmp interested please write to me imagesyz aol com
comp.graphics	need specs for mpeg mpg file format i am looking for the specs for the mpg files that are floating around the alt binaries pictures groups on the net please lemme know where i can obtain the spec or email it to me thanks much james d murray add sciences sdsu edu
comp.graphics	re easy to translate jpeg code in article rfsqbinnc p shelley u washington edu stusoft hardy u washington edu stuart denman writes does anyone out there have any jpeg decompression code in pretty much any language that i can read and understand i have trouble understanding the jpeg group s code that i got from an ftp site if any one can send me some good code i will appreciate it a lot thanks the problem is that the process is inherently complicated the ijg s code is pretty good if you ask me and i have watched it go through many many cycles of revision try getting a good book on the subject that will explain the algorithms specifically jpeg still image compression standard by pennebaker mitchell vnr isbn btw i presume your comment about good code wasn t meant to sound as offensive as it does david a clunie dclunie pax tpa com au
comp.graphics	ftp site for pov files i know this has been asked a million time but what was the ftp site carrying zips of full pov source files including jack zip and kettle zip i ve once been there but unfortunately lost the address i m in a little hurry with it so please e mail me at jtheinon kruuna helsinki fi thanks jarkko
comp.graphics	re where did the hacker ethic go in article gradyc d ep awe netcom com grady netcom com ef writes where did the hacker ethic go we hackers of the s and are now comfortably employed and supporting families the next generation takes the radical lead now don t look for radicalism among us old ones we re gone and guess who s here in your place please finger xyzzy gnu ai mit edu for information or if you are a mail news only site mail xyzzy gnu ai mit edu with the subject line send finger daniel drucker n sxx xyzzy gnu ai mit edu forever forever my coda und dzd vaxc hofstra edu
comp.graphics	jpeg fif specification i recently got a document describing the jpeg fif jfif file format i was looking thru it but i didn t get the idea how to determine the size of a pic in pixel without decoding the whole image how do you get the height and width of a jpeg in a jfif how do you determine wether it is a color or a greyscale picture i wrote a small tool lsgif for gif that returns the filesize picture size and color resolution by analizing the header chunks the output looks like this bla gif x c i use this lsgif to create index files of my archive and since jpeg are getting more and more popular i would like to have a similar tool for jfif with an output like this bla jpg x c please respond by email because i don t read this news group very often i ll post a summary if it is useful thanx in advance larry lars larry michael mr gif if murphy s law lars itu sun ac za can go wrong it will lsmichae informatik uni erlangen de spec stud at univ of stellenbosch south afrika ham zr db bw grad stud at univ of erlangen nuremberg germany irc pit
comp.graphics	fractint on a speedstar x i m still looking for fractint drivers or a new release which supports the bit color mode of the diamond speedstar x there are some and million colros drivers but none work with the x any help would be appreciated thanks chad new in sea world of ohio chad cipiti shark cipiti bobcat ent ohiou edu encounter make contact af cleveland freenet edu
comp.graphics	re where did the hacker ethic go perhaphs what bill gates and steve jobs are now is the result of the natural evolution of a successful hacker either you make money go to jail lee feldenstein sp or just fade away as oh that s uncle so and so who really likes computers what a computer hacker is and does will change as long as the definition of the word computer continues to change james d murray add sciences sdsu edu
comp.graphics	re is there an ftp achive for usgs terrain data in article c dj wl cs columbia edu olasov cs columbia edu benjamin olasov writes in article apr welchgate welch jhu edu danj welchgate welch jhu edu dan jacobson writes a lot of interesting stuff about gopher deleted if you ve never heard of gopher don t worry it s free and on the net write me a note if you d like information on how to get started best of luck dan jacobson danj welchgate welch jhu edu i ve heard of it but lost the intro posting that came out a while back could you post it again i think it s of general interest ben ben olasov olasov cs columbia edu this is a heavily edited modified version of the gopher faq intended to give people just starting with gopher enough information to get a client and jump into gopher space a complete version can be obtained as described below once you have a gopher client point it at merlot welch jhu edu and welcome to gopher space dan jacobson danj welchgate welch jhu edu common questions and answers about the internet gopher a client server protocol for making a world wide information service with many implementations posted to comp infosystems gopher comp answers and news answers every two weeks the most recent version of this faq can be gotten through gopher or via anonymous ftp rtfm mit edu pub usenet news answers gopher faq those without ftp access should send e mail to mail server rtfm mit edu with send usenet news answers finding sources in the body to find out how to do ftp by e mail list of questions in the gopher faq q what is gopher q where can i get gopher software q what do i need to access gopher q where are there publicly available logins for gopher q who develops gopher software q what is the relationship between gopher and wais www ftp q are papers or articles describing gopher available q what is veronica q what is available for biology q what is gopher a the internet gopher client server provides a distributed information delivery system around which a world campus wide information system cwis can readily be constructed while providing a delivery vehicle for local information gopher facilitates access to other gopher and information servers throughout the world q where can i get gopher software a via anonymous ftp to boombox micro umn edu look in the directory pub gopher q what do i need to access gopher a you will need a gopher client program that runs on your local pc or workstation there are clients for the following systems the directory following the name is the location of the client on the anonymous ftp site boombox micro umn edu in the directory pub gopher unix curses emacs pub gopher unix gopher tar z xwindows athena pub gopher unix xgopher tar z xwindows motif pub gopher unix moog xwindows xview pub gopher unix xvgopher macintosh hypercard pub gopher macintosh turbogopher old versions macintosh application pub gopher macintosh turbogopher dos w clarkson driver pub gopher pc client nextstep pub gopher next vm cms pub gopher rice cms or pub gopher viegopher vms pub gopher vms os pub gopher os mvs xa pub gopher mvs many other clients and servers have been developed by others the following is an attempt at a comprehensive list a microsoft windows winsock client the gopher book sunsite unc edu pub micro pc stuff ms windows winsock goph tbk zip a macintosh application macgopher ftp cc utah edu pub gopher macintosh another macintosh application gopherapp ftp bio indiana edu util gopher gopherapp a port of the unix curses client for dos with pc tcp oac hsc uth tmc edu public dos misc dosgopher exe a port of the unix curses client for pc nfs bcm tmc edu nfs gopher exe a beta version of the pc gopher client for novell s lan workplace for dos lennon itn med umich edu dos gopher a vms decwindows client for use with wollongong or ucx job acs ohio state edu xgopher client share note these macintosh clients require mactcp most of the above clients can also be fetched via a gopher client itself put the following on a gopher server type host boombox micro umn edu port path name gopher software distribution or point your gopher client at boombox micro umn edu port and look in the gopher directory there are also a number of public telnet login sites available the university of minnesota operates one on the machine consultant micro umn edu see q for more information about this it is recommended that you run the client software instead of logging into the public telnet login sites a client uses the custom features of the local machine mouse scroll bars etc a local client is also faster q where are there publicly available logins ie places to telnet to in order to get a taste of gopher for gopher a here is a short list use the site closest to you to minimize network lag telnet public logins hostname ip login area consultant micro umn edu gopher north america gopher uiuc edu gopher north america panda uiowa edu panda north america gopher sunet se gopher europe info anu edu au info australia gopher chalmers se gopher sweden tolten puc cl gopher south america ecnet ec gopher ecuador gan ncc go jp gopher japan it is recommended that you run the client software instead of logging into the public login sites a client uses the custom features of the local machine mouse scroll bars etc and gives faster response furthermore many of the basic features of clients saving a file to your hard drive printing a file to a local printer viewing images retrieving files from ftp sites etc are not available by the telnet logins q who develops gopher software a gopher was originally developed in april by the university of minnesota microcomputer workstation networks center to help our campus find answers to their computer questions it has since grown into a full fledged world wide information system used by a large number of sites in the world many people have contributed to the project too numerous to count the people behind the much of the gopher software can be reached via e mail at gopher boombox micro umn edu or via paper mail internet gopher developers union st se minneapolis mn usa or via fax at q what is the relationship between gopher and wais www ftp a gopher is intimately intertwined with these two other systems as shipped the unix gopher server has the capability to search local wais indices query remote wais servers and funnel the results to gopher clients query remote ftp sites and funnel the results to gopher clients be queried by www world wide web clients either using built in gopher querying or using native http querying q are papers or articles describing gopher available a gopher has a whole chapter devoted to it in the whole internet ed kroll o reilly editors note great book go out and buy a bunch the internet passport northwestnet s guide to our world online by jonathan kochmer and northwestnet published by northwestnet bellevue wa pp isbn contact info passport nwnet net or a students guide to unix by harley hahn publisher mcgraw hill inc isbn other references include the internet gopher connexions july interop exploring internet gopherspace the internet society news v n you can subscribe to the internet society news by sending e mail to isoc nri reston va us the internet gopher protocol proceedings of the twenty third ietf cnri section internet gopher proceedings of canadian networking the internet gopher internet getting started sri international section tools help internet users discover on line treasures computerworld july tcp ip network administration o reilly balakrishan b oct spigopher making spires databases accessible through the gopher protocol spires fall workshop chapel hill north carolina tomer c information technology standards for libraries journal of the american society for information science sept q what is veronica a veronica very easy rodent oriented net wide index to computerized archives veronica offers a keyword search of most gopher server menu titles in the entire gopher web as archie is to ftp archives veronica is to gopherspace a veronica search produces a menu of gopher items each of which is a direct pointer to a gopher data source because veronica is accessed through a gopher client it is easy to use and gives access to all types of data supported by the gopher protocol to try veronica select it from the other gophers menu on minnesota s gopher server or point your gopher at name veronica search menu items in most of gopherspace type port path veronica host futique scs unr edu q what is available for biology a there is an incredible amount of software data and information availble to biologists now by gopher here is a brief list of the biological databases that you can search via gopher bdt tropical data base searches biotechnet buyers guide online catalogues for biology tel search protein data bank headers chlamydomonas genetics center crystallization database hgmp databases probes and primers museum of paleontology type specimen index mycdb mycobacterium database search drosophila flybase indiana search genbank swiss prot pir pdb search aatdb an arabidopsis thaliana database search acedb a caenorhabditis elegans database search compoundkb a metabolic compound database search databases at welchlab vectors promoters nrl d est omi search embl search genbank search genbank search genbank updates search limb search pir search pir keyword species search prosite search rebase restriction enzyme database search swiss prot search tfd search the c elegans strain list search the dna database of japan search the ec enzyme database search the graingenes database search the maize database cloning vectors plasmids phage etc epd eukaryotic promoter database est expressed sequence tag database human west expressed sequence tag database c elegans kabat database of proteins of immunological interest nrl d protein sequence structure database omim online mendelian inheritance in man seqanalref sequence analysis bibliographic reference data ban search rebase restriction enzyme database search the ec enzyme database search the rodent section of genbank database taxonomy genbank swiss prot retrieve full pdb entries by accession number search for all researchers funded by nih search for genome researchers funded by doe search for researchers funded by nsf search for researchers funded by the usda e mail addresses of crystallographers e mail addresses of yeast reasearchers phonebooks around the world search and retrieve software for all computers search and retrieve macintosh software search and retrieve dos software search and retrieve gnu software search and retrieve software for biology search for agricultural software search and retrieve graphics software and data search and retrieve all online perl scripts ftp sites for biology archives for software and data and the list goes on this is just the beginning
comp.graphics	re looking for polygon convexifier in article rvpmc dd nwfocus wa com mpdillon halcyon com michael dillon writes does anyone know where i can find a code which would take concave polygons and break them up into a set of convex polygons i also would like code or algorithms to do this although i am not offering code i would like to point out that any polygon triangulation code satisfies the task as stated if you want code to partition a polygon into the minimum number of convex pieces i doubt very much if it exists although an algorithm is known
comp.graphics	re lcd vga display in trevorc cz x netcom com trevor netcom com sandy santra writes mike mattone mike nx mik uky edu wrote i ve only had the computer for about months only that s a long time is that a reasonable life cycle for a lcd display i think months with nothing wrong until now is quite reasonable if you had bought a compaq or toshiba you might have reasonably expected the machine to last longer before something went wrong but that s a moot point perhaps maybe i ve had an epson portable with backlit lcd since which is still used daily and the screen on that is fine the only problem it has and ever has had is the arm of the screen is sorta lose and if you bend it fairly harshly the screen goes off until you wiggle it round a bit but other than that it s been perfect so what s that about um months justin sullivan system administrator dialix services sydney modem justin sydney dialix oz au ph perth
comp.graphics	re where did the hacker ethic go in article s p n m o pandora sdsu edu add sciences sdsu edu james d murray writes perhaphs what bill gates and steve jobs are now is the result of the natural evolution of a successful hacker either you make money go to jail lee feldenstein sp or just fade away as oh that s uncle so and so who really likes computers what a computer hacker is and does will change as long as the definition of the word computer continues to change or perhaps you write a freely available gpled unix for commonly available computer platforms i i machines and become a catalyst for a major netwide project which produces a better unix like os than many commercial counterparts see comp os linux for details or maybe you found a legue for programming freedom to fight restrictive litigation and software patenting practices thereby protecting the creative freedom so vital to continuing progress in our field or maybe you start up a gnu project and produce by far and away the best c c compiler for unix there is not to mention other valuable utilities some hackers make significant contributions without selling out their ideals as for bill gates after pawning of grossly inferior software onto the pc market for ten years if he ever was a hacker he deserves to have his name eradicated from the annals of computer hackery as for me i like running linux x countless other packages without paying a dime on the other hand i have no problem purchasing motif or other good software as long as microsoft hasn t fouled it with their inept input my cents worth flames will be patiently ignored jean jean liddle computer science illinois state university e mail jliddle ilstu edu
comp.graphics	how can i download files graphics how can i find these files and graphics that people are downloading from their unix systems then how do i download them i am a complete beginner in this obviously so please baby step me through the process first of all i don t see amongst these newsgroups where there is anything remotely like a gif tif or compiled shareware program thanks in advance for any information you can give me i know there is a unix command ftp that will allow me to do this but first i need to know where to go to find the file i want download via ftp etc thomas helke egret wet uucp wq
comp.graphics	where can i find someone who can digitize currier ives does anyone know if any of currier and ives etchings have been digitized for use in desktop publishing i am particularly interested in their riverboat scenes does anyone know who can get me for a fee a good digitized river boat image thank you david dumas david dumas dmd isis msstate edu david dumas dmd isis msstate edu
comp.graphics	re help needed dxf iff in article apr news columbia edu ph cunixb cc columbia edu pei hsieh writes hi sorry if this is a faq but are there any conversion utilities available for autodesk dxf to amiga iff format i checked the comp graphics faq and a number of sites but so far no banana please e mail dxf can not be changed over to iff format what it can be changed to is an object format used by one of the d programs on the amiga the only tools around are comercial for that conversion yury german blue knight bknight jpr com blue knight productions genie blue knight graphic design and video productions
comp.graphics	re where did the hacker ethic go from article may aurora alaska edu by pstlb aurora alaska edu i put it to you thus where has the hacker ethic gone if it still exists where and if it does exist why are those who call themselves hackers allowing this to perpetuate itself why are they not creating new innovative interesting ideas to stop the sos from maintaining its choke hold on the computer industry since this was posted on comp ai i assume there is an ai angle to this hacking is what ai students do when they re really supposed to be doing something else e g thesis research write up getting their supervisors pet programs to run properly etc no one gets much glory for hacking and no one gets any money out of it producing good free software requires an enormous investment of time resources that not many people can or want to afford particularly during a recession in addition over the last years i think there has been a de emphasis on producing running programs in ai research and a greater emphasis on more formal approaches to problem solving students have been proving theorems instead of writing programs at a conference a year or two ago johann de kleer suggested that everyone should get back to the keyboard and write more programs that demonstrate their ideas and i have to say i m inclined to agree i don t claim to be a superhacker but i don t think that invalidates my remarks and i m sure this isn t the whole story peter jackson dept of electrical computer eng clarkson university opinions expressed are not those of my employer or any other organization second violin fiddling firefighters ensemble rome branch
comp.graphics	re help needed dxf iff in article blue knight tj bknight jpr com blue knight bknight jpr com yury german writes in article apr news columbia edu ph cunixb cc columbia edu pei hsieh writes hi sorry if this is a faq but are there any conversion utilities available for autodesk dxf to amiga iff format i checked the comp graphics faq and a number of sites but so far no banana please e mail dxf can not be changed over to iff format what it can be changed to is an object format used by one of the d programs on the amiga the only tools around are comercial for that conversion hijaak claims to convert dxf to iff although hijaak claims some stuff that i have never gotten to work for example not long ago i tried to convert some iff files from an amiga video toaster using crossdos so my pc could read the disks int targa files hijaak made some gorgeous megabyte targa files from the iffs all totally black mac mcdougald any opinions expressed herein the photography center are not necessarily actually univ of tenn knoxville are almost certainly not those mac utkvx utk edu of the university of tennessee mac utkvx bitnet things are more like they are now fax than they ve ever been before
comp.graphics	tel for d scanners needed hello all i need to make some torso d scans and would like the phone numbers of companies in the midwest that make scans and the numbers of companies that make the sanners ie cyberware does anyone have an idea of how much a single scan costs and the best format to save it in i am not sure on what software platform i will be using it in probably either softimage or wavefront so i think a spline based format would be best please forward the numbers to me personally as i am having problems accessing usenet lately thanks in advance patrick maun r gab awiuni edvz univie ac at st paul mn
comp.graphics	re oh make up your mind was re xv problems a xv can load a bit image and display it in all it s bit glory on bit x displays b all other operations crop dither smooth etc are not supported on bit images how hard would this be not very you just type xloadimage or getx instead of xv
comp.graphics	d modelers for unix could someone please post a list of good three d modelers that will run on sparc stations preferably cheap thanks richard rws v virginia edu
comp.graphics	re where did the hacker ethic go where did the hacker ethic go we hackers of the s and are now comfortably employed and supporting families the next generation takes the radical lead now don t look for radicalism among us old ones we re gone perhaps all of us hackers have become ick professionals i have noticed my and my associates progression from hackers to computer professionals it is rather distasteful it occurs when a series of things happen one s ego outgrows one s talent knowledge one s financial situation takes precedence a change in priorities esp family possibly leading to the hacker s attitude makes the shift from fun to work one s vocation burns away the creativity needed for the hobby or the biggest killer imo one s dreams are sadly shattered on the hard rocks of society s version of reality without the dream the motivation dies without the motivation the effort seems useless another set of problems stems from our children while most of us remember when there were several completely different computer systems our children are growing up with just a few choices msdos mac amiga and do not enjoy the diversity we did i remember the great computer fallout of the early eighties vividly as i was forced to stop using skills developed for systems that were now dead the diversity of systems before then allowed for widely divergent paradigms that period forced hackers to continually learn new systems in the attempt to keep up not to mention that if a program was needed we were forced in most situations to write it ourselves as a commercial offering was just not available now our children are being taught the user mentality as the number of us old timers dwindle we are not being replaced by the next generation kendall kendall sears krsear ulkyvx louisville edu programmer child development unit amiga department of pediatrics currently running amigaos university of louisville xx and supporting unix sys v rev life is a game you play once in order to win you must make a difference remember this is not a practice session
comp.graphics	what is smithsonian institution ftp address does antone know the ftp address for the smithsonian institution where one can get digitized photographs etc please reply by email to pbenson cscihp ecst csuchico edu thanks paul benson
comp.graphics	companies involved with scientific visualization if anyone has a list of companies doing data visualization software or hardware i would like to hear from them thanks krs k r subramanian ph at t bell laboratories rm a email krs research att com mountain av murray hill nj
comp.graphics	re help needed dxf iff blue knight bknight jpr com yury german writes dxf can not be changed over to iff format what it can be changed to is an object format used by one of the d programs on the amiga the only tools around are comercial for that conversion actually iff is a format standard it is not a picture file format sound file format but there exist several formats that use the iff standard the iff picture standard used by mostly everybody is a form ilbm or just ilbm the only d iff specification i know of is tddd which is used by imagine and it s predecessor turbo silver it is possible that some of the other amiga packages use another iff spec but i don t know of any lightwave will load tddd form s i believe christopher b fury this space for rent cfury csugrad cs vt edu call quoteme for more information
comp.graphics	definition of occlusion hi everyone i don t clearly understand occlusion in computer graphics would you please give me an explanation btw what s the difference between occluded surface and opaque surface thanks in advance yeh usc
comp.graphics	re what is do in rs giinn hk no names nerdc ufl edu lioness maple circa ufl edu writes someone please fill me in on what do thanks bh there is a review of do in the latest wired magazine you may just want to take a trip to the local bookstore and check it out there s some cool pics too i haven t read it yet or i d tell you more aaron hightower
comp.graphics	re oak vga mb please i needd vesa tsr simple look for vesa drivers in vpic e package many svga card supported look for it on your favorite bbs not tonight honey i just received my nuvotel prxfalken email teaser com pascal guillaumet teaser issy les moulineaux france
comp.graphics	jpeg image compression frequently asked questions archive name jpeg faq last modified may this faq article discusses jpeg image compression suggestions for additions and clarifications are welcome new since version of april new version of xv supports bit viewing for x windows new versions of dvpeg image alchemy for dos new versions of image archiver pmview for os new listing mgif for monochrome display ataris this article includes the following sections what is jpeg why use jpeg when should i use jpeg and when should i stick with gif how well does jpeg compress images what are good quality settings for jpeg where can i get jpeg software a canned software viewers etc b source code what s all this hoopla about color quantization how does jpeg work what about lossless jpeg why all the argument about file formats how do i recognize which file format i have and what do i do about it what about arithmetic coding does loss accumulate with repeated compression decompression what are some rules of thumb for converting gif images to jpeg sections are basic info that every jpeg user needs to know sections are advanced info for the curious this article is posted every weeks you can always find the latest version in the news answers archive at rtfm mit edu by ftp fetch pub usenet news answers jpeg faq or if you don t have ftp send e mail to mail server rtfm mit edu with body send usenet news answers jpeg faq many other faq articles are also stored in this archive for more instructions on use of the archive send e mail to the same address with the words help and index no quotes on separate lines if you don t get a reply the server may be misreading your return address add a line such as path myname mysite to specify your correct e mail address to reply to what is jpeg jpeg pronounced jay peg is a standardized image compression mechanism jpeg stands for joint photographic experts group the original name of the committee that wrote the standard jpeg is designed for compressing either full color or gray scale digital images of natural real world scenes it does not work so well on non realistic images such as cartoons or line drawings jpeg does not handle black and white bit per pixel images nor does it handle motion picture compression standards for compressing those types of images are being worked on by other committees named jbig and mpeg respectively jpeg is lossy meaning that the image you get out of decompression isn t quite identical to what you originally put in the algorithm achieves much of its compression by exploiting known limitations of the human eye notably the fact that small color details aren t perceived as well as small details of light and dark thus jpeg is intended for compressing images that will be looked at by humans if you plan to machine analyze your images the small errors introduced by jpeg may be a problem for you even if they are invisible to the eye a useful property of jpeg is that the degree of lossiness can be varied by adjusting compression parameters this means that the image maker can trade off file size against output image quality you can make extremely small files if you don t mind poor quality this is useful for indexing image archives making thumbnail views or icons etc etc conversely if you aren t happy with the output quality at the default compression setting you can jack up the quality until you are satisfied and accept lesser compression why use jpeg there are two good reasons to make your image files smaller and to store bit per pixel color data instead of bit per pixel data making image files smaller is a big win for transmitting files across networks and for archiving libraries of images being able to compress a mbyte full color file down to kbytes or so makes a big difference in disk space and transmission time if you are comparing gif and jpeg the size ratio is more like four to one more details below if your viewing software doesn t support jpeg directly you ll have to convert jpeg to some other format for viewing or manipulating images even with a jpeg capable viewer it takes longer to decode and view a jpeg image than to view an image of a simpler format gif for instance thus using jpeg is essentially a time space tradeoff you give up some time in order to store or transmit an image more cheaply it s worth noting that when network or phone transmission is involved the time savings from transferring a shorter file can be much greater than the extra time to decompress the file i ll let you do the arithmetic yourself the other reason why jpeg will gradually replace gif as a standard usenet posting format is that jpeg can store full color information bits pixel million colors instead of or less or fewer colors if you have only bit display hardware then this may not seem like much of an advantage to you within a couple of years though bit gif will look as obsolete as black and white macpaint format does today furthermore for reasons detailed in section jpeg is far more useful than gif for exchanging images among people with widely varying color display hardware hence jpeg is considerably more appropriate than gif for use as a usenet posting standard when should i use jpeg and when should i stick with gif jpeg is not going to displace gif entirely for some types of images gif is superior in image quality file size or both one of the first things to learn about jpeg is which kinds of images to apply it to as a rule of thumb jpeg is superior to gif for storing full color or gray scale images of realistic scenes that means scanned photographs and similar material jpeg is superior even if you don t have bit display hardware and it is a lot superior if you do see section for details gif does significantly better on images with only a few distinct colors such as cartoons and line drawings in particular large areas of pixels that are all exactly the same color are compressed very efficiently indeed by gif jpeg can t squeeze these files as much as gif does without introducing visible defects this sort of image is best kept in gif form in particular single color borders are quite cheap in gif files but they should be avoided in jpeg files jpeg also has a hard time with very sharp edges a row of pure black pixels adjacent to a row of pure white pixels for example sharp edges tend to come out blurred unless you use a very high quality setting again this sort of thing is not found in scanned photographs but it shows up fairly often in gif files borders overlaid text etc the blurriness is particularly objectionable with text that s only a few pixels high if you have a gif with a lot of small size overlaid text don t jpeg it computer drawn images ray traced scenes for instance usually fall between scanned images and cartoons in terms of complexity the more complex and subtly rendered the image the more likely that jpeg will do well on it the same goes for semi realistic artwork fantasy drawings and such plain black and white two level images should never be converted to jpeg you need at least about gray levels before jpeg is useful for gray scale images it should also be noted that gif is lossless for gray scale images of up to levels while jpeg is not if you have an existing library of gif images you may wonder whether you should convert them to jpeg you will lose a little image quality if you do section which argues that jpeg image quality is superior to gif only applies if both formats start from a full color original if you start from a gif you ve already irretrievably lost a great deal of information jpeg can only make things worse however the disk space savings may justify converting anyway this is a decision you ll have to make for yourself if you do convert a gif library to jpeg see section for hints be prepared to leave some images in gif format since some gifs will not convert well how well does jpeg compress images pretty darn well here are some sample file sizes for an image i have handy a x full color image of a ship in a harbor the first three files are for comparison purposes the rest were created with the free jpeg software described in section b file size in bytes comments ship ppm original file in ppm format no compression bits or bytes per pixel plus a few bytes overhead ship ppm z ppm file passed through unix compress compress doesn t accomplish a lot you ll note other text oriented compressors give similar results ship gif converted to gif with ppmquant fs ppmtogif most of the savings is the result of losing color info gif saves bits pixel not see sec ship jpg cjpeg q highest useful quality setting this is indistinguishable from the bit original at least to my nonprofessional eyeballs ship jpg cjpeg q default setting you have to look mighty darn close to distinguish this from the original even with both on screen at once ship jpg cjpeg q this has slight defects if you know what to look for you could tell it s been jpeged without seeing the original still as good image quality as many recent postings in usenet pictures groups ship jpg cjpeg q jpeg s characteristic blockiness becomes apparent at this setting djpeg blocksmooth helps some still i ve seen plenty of usenet postings that were of poorer image quality than this ship jpg o cjpeg q optimize optimize cuts table overhead blocky but perfectly satisfactory for preview or indexing purposes note that this file is tiny the compression ratio from the original is in this case jpeg can make a file that s a factor of four or five smaller than a gif of comparable quality the q file is every bit as good as the gif better if you have a full color display this seems to be a typical ratio for real world scenes what are good quality settings for jpeg most jpeg compressors let you pick a file size vs image quality tradeoff by selecting a quality setting there seems to be widespread confusion about the meaning of these settings quality does not mean keep of the information as some have claimed the quality scale is purely arbitrary it s not a percentage of anything the name of the game in using jpeg is to pick the lowest quality setting smallest file size that decompresses into an image indistinguishable from the original this setting will vary from one image to another and from one observer to another but here are some rules of thumb the default quality setting q is very often the best choice this setting is about the lowest you can go without expecting to see defects in a typical image try q first if you see defects then go up except for experimental purposes never go above q saying q will produce a file two or three times as large as q but of hardly any better quality if the image was less than perfect quality to begin with you might be able to go down to q without objectionable degradation on the other hand you might need to go to a higher quality setting to avoid further degradation the second case seems to apply much of the time when converting gifs to jpeg the default q is about right for compressing bit images but q to is usually better for converting gifs see section for more info if you want a very small file say for preview or indexing purposes and are prepared to tolerate large defects a q setting in the range of to is about right q or so may be amusing as op art note the quality settings discussed in this article apply to the free jpeg software described in section b and to many programs based on it other jpeg implementations such as image alchemy may use a completely different quality scale some programs don t even provide a numeric scale just high medium low style choices where can i get jpeg software most of the programs described in this section are available by ftp if you don t know how to use ftp see the faq article how to find sources if you don t have direct access to ftp read about ftpmail servers in the same article that article appears regularly in news answers or you can get it by sending e mail to mail server rtfm mit edu with send usenet news answers finding sources in the body the anonymous ftp list faq may also be helpful it s usenet news answers ftp list faq in the news answers archive note this list changes constantly if you have a copy more than a couple months old get the latest jpeg faq from the news answers archive a if you are looking for canned software viewers etc the first part of this list is system specific programs that only run on one kind of system if you don t see what you want for your machine check out the portable jpeg software described at the end of the list note that this list concentrates on free and shareware programs that you can obtain over internet but some commercial programs are listed too x windows xv shareware is an excellent viewer for jpeg gif and many other image formats it can also do format conversion and some simple image manipulations it s available for ftp from export lcs mit edu file contrib xv tar z version is a major upgrade with support for bit displays and many other improvements however it is brand new and still has some bugs lurking if you prefer not to be on the bleeding edge stick with version also available from export note that version is not a good choice if you have a bit display you ll get only bit color nor for converting bit images to jpeg but works fine for converting gif and other bit images to jpeg caution there is a glitch in version be sure to check the save at normal size checkbox when saving a jpeg file or the file will be blurry another good choice for x windows is john cristy s free imagemagick package also available from export lcs mit edu file contrib imagemagick tar z this package handles many image processing and conversion tasks the imagemagick viewer handles bit displays correctly for colormapped displays it does better though slower color quantization than xv or the basic free jpeg software both of the above are large complex packages if you just want a simple image viewer try xloadimage or xli xloadimage supports jpeg in its latest release xloadimage is free and available from export lcs mit edu file contrib xloadimage tar z xli is a variant version of xloadimage said by its fans to be somewhat faster and more robust than the original the current xli is indeed faster and more robust than the current xloadimage at least with respect to jpeg files because it has the ijg v decoder while xloadimage is using a hacked over v the next xloadimage release will fix this xli is also free and available from export lcs mit edu file contrib xli tar z both programs are said to do the right thing with bit displays ms dos this covers plain dos for windows or os programs see the next headings one good choice is eric praetzel s free dvpeg which views jpeg and gif files the current version is available by ftp from sunee uwaterloo ca file pub jpeg viewers dvpeg zip this is a good basic viewer that works on either or machines the user interface is not flashy but it s functional another freeware jpeg gif tga viewer is mohammad rezaei s hiview the current version is available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics hv zip hiview requires a or better cpu and a vcpi compatible memory manager qemm and max work windows and os do not hiview is currently the fastest viewer for images that are no bigger than your screen for larger images it scales the image down to fit on the screen rather than using panning scrolling as most viewers do you may or may not prefer this approach but there s no denying that it slows down loading of large images considerably note installation is a bit tricky read the directions carefully a shareware alternative is colorview for dos this is easier to install than either of the two freeware alternatives its user interface is also much spiffier looking although personally i find it harder to use more keystrokes inconsistent behavior it is faster than dvpeg but a little slower than hiview at least on my hardware for images larger than screen size dvpeg and colorview seem to be about the same speed and both are faster than hiview the current version is available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics dcview zip requires a vesa graphics driver if you don t have one look in vesadrv zip or vesa tsr zip from the same directory many recent pcs have a built in vesa driver so don t try to load a vesa driver unless colorview complains that the driver is missing a second shareware alternative is fullview which has been kicking around the net for a while but i don t know any stable archive location for it the current rather old version is inferior to the above viewers anyway the author tells me that a new version of fullview will be out shortly and it will be submitted to the simtel archives at that time the well known gif viewer compushow cshow supports jpeg in its latest revision a however cshow s jpeg implementation isn t very good it s slow about half the speed of the above viewers and image quality is poor except on hi color displays too bad it d have been nice to see a good jpeg capability in cshow shareware available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos gif cshw a zip due to the remarkable variety of pc graphics hardware any one of these viewers might not work on your particular machine if you can t get any of them to work you ll need to use one of the following conversion programs to convert jpeg to gif then view with your favorite gif viewer if you have hi color hardware don t use gif as the intermediate format try to find a targa capable viewer instead vpic is reputed to do the right thing with hi color displays the independent jpeg group s free jpeg converters are ftpable from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics jpeg zip or jpeg zip if you have a and extended memory these files are dos compilations of the free source code described in section b they will convert jpeg to and from gif targa and ppm formats handmade software offers free jpeg gif conversion tools gif jpg jpg gif these are slow and are limited to conversion to and from gif format in particular you can t get bit color output from a jpeg the major advantage of these tools is that they will read and write hsi s proprietary jpeg format as well as the usenet standard jfif format since hsi format files are rather widespread on bbses this is a useful capability version of these tools is free prior versions were shareware get it from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics gif jpg zip note do not use hsi format for files to be posted on internet since it is not readable on non pc platforms handmade software also has a shareware image conversion and manipulation package image alchemy this will translate jpeg files both jfif and hsi formats to and from many other image formats it can also display images a demo version of image alchemy version is available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics alch zip note about simtel the internet s key archive site for pc related programs is simtel full name wsmr simtel army mil simtel runs a non unix system with weird directory names where this document refers to directory eg msdos graphics at simtel that really means pd msdos graphics if you are not physically on milnet you should expect rather slow ftp transfer rates from simtel there are several internet sites that maintain copies mirrors of the simtel archives most ftp users should go to one of the mirror sites instead a popular usa mirror site is oak oakland edu which keeps simtel files in eg pub msdos graphics if you have no ftp capability you can retrieve files from simtel by e mail see informational postings in comp archives msdos announce to find out how if you are outside the usa consult the same newsgroup to learn where your nearest simtel mirror is microsoft windows there are several windows programs capable of displaying jpeg images windows viewers are generally slower than dos viewers on the same hardware due to windows system overhead note that you can run the dos conversion programs described above inside a windows dos window the newest entry is winecj which is free and extremely fast version is available from ftp rahul net file pub bryanw pc jpeg wecj zip requires windows and or more colors mode this is a no frills viewer with the bad habit of hogging the machine completely while it decodes and the image quality is noticeably worse than other viewers but it s so fast you ll use it anyway at least for previewing jview is freeware fairly fast has good on line help and can write out the decompressed image in windows bmp format but it can t create new jpeg files and it doesn t view gifs jview also lacks some other useful features of the shareware viewers such as brightness adjustment but it s an excellent basic viewer the current version is available from ftp cica indiana edu file pub pc win desktop jview zip mirrors of this archive can be found at some other internet sites including wuarchive wustl edu winjpeg shareware displays jpeg gif targa tiff and bmp image files it can write all of these formats too so it can be used as a converter it has some other nifty features including color balance adjustment and slideshow the current version is available from simtel and mirror sites see note above file msdos windows winjp zip this is a slow compatible version if you register you ll get the only version which is roughly faster colorview is another shareware entry this was an early and promising contender but it has not been updated in some time and at this point it has no real advantages over winjpeg if you want to try it anyway the current version is available from ftp cica indiana edu file pub pc win desktop cview zip i understand that a new version will be appearing once the authors are finished with colorview for dos dvpeg see dos heading also works under windows but only in full screen mode not in a window os the following files are available from hobbes nmsu edu note check pub uploads for more recent versions the hobbes moderator is not very fast about moving uploads into their permanent directories pub os x graphics jpegv zip bit version of free ijg conversion programs version pub os all graphics jpeg zip bit version of same for os x pub os x graphics imgarc zip image archiver image conversion viewing with pm graphical interface strong on conversion functions viewing is a bit weaker shareware pub os x graphics pmjpeg zip pmjpeg os x port of winjpeg a popular viewer for windows see description in windows section shareware pub os x graphics pmview zip pmview jpeg gif bmp viewer gif viewing very fast jpeg viewing fast if you have huge amounts of ram otherwise about the same speed as the above programs strong bit display support shareware macintosh most mac jpeg programs rely on apple s jpeg implementation which is part of the quicktime system extension so you need to have quicktime installed to use quicktime you need a or better cpu and you need to be running system or later if you re running system you must also install the bit quickdraw extension this is built in on system you can get quicktime by ftp from ftp apple com file dts mac quicktime quicktime hqx as of this file contains quicktime which is better than qt in several ways with respect to jpeg it is marginally faster and considerably less prone to crash when fed a corrupt jpeg file however some applications seem to have compatibility problems with qt mac users should keep in mind that quicktime s jpeg format pict jpeg is not the same as the usenet standard jfif jpeg format see section for details if you post images on usenet make sure they are in jfif format most of the programs mentioned below can generate either format the first choice is probably jpegview a free program for viewing images that are in jfif format pict jpeg format or gif format it also can convert between the two jpeg formats the current version is a big improvement over prior versions get it from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac app jpeg view hqx requires system and quicktime on bit displays jpegview usually produces the best color image quality of all the currently available mac jpeg viewers jpegview can view large images in much less memory than other mac viewers in fact it s the only one that can deal with jpeg images much over x pixels on a typical mb mac given a large image jpegview automatically scales it down to fit on the screen rather than presenting scroll bars like most other viewers you can zoom in on any desired portion though some people like this behavior some don t overall jpegview s user interface is very well thought out gifconverter a shareware image viewer converter supports jfif and pict jpeg as well as gif and several other image formats the latest version is get it from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac art gif gif converter hqx requires system or later gifconverter is not better than jpegview as a plain jpeg gif viewer but it has much more extensive image manipulation and format conversion capabilities so you may find it worth its shareware fee if you do a lot of playing around with images also the newest version of gifconverter can load and save jfif images without quicktime so it is your best bet if your machine is too old to run quicktime but it s faster with quicktime note if gifconverter runs out of memory trying to load a large jpeg try converting the file to gif with jpeg convert then viewing the gif version jpeg convert a mac version of the free ijg jpeg conversion utilities is available from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac app jpeg convert hqx this will run on any mac but it only does file conversion not viewing you can use it in conjunction with any gif viewer previous versions of this faq recommended imagery jpeg v a jpeg gif converter based on an old version of the ijg code if you are using this program you definitely should replace it with jpeg convert apple s free program pictpixie can view images in jfif quicktime jpeg and gif format and can convert between these formats you can get pictpixie from ftp apple com file dts mac quicktime qt stuff pictpixie hqx requires quicktime pictpixie was intended as a developer s tool and it s really not the best choice unless you like to fool around with quicktime some of its drawbacks are that it requires lots of memory it produces relatively poor color image quality on anything less than a bit display and it has a relatively unfriendly user interface worse pictpixie is an unsupported program meaning it has some minor bugs that apple does not intend to fix there is an old version of pictpixie called pictcompressor floating around the net if you have this you should trash it as it s even buggier also the quicktime starter kit includes a much cleaned up descendant of pictpixie called picture compressor note that picture compressor is not free and may not be distributed on the net storm technology s picture decompress is a free jpeg viewer converter this rather old program is inferior to the above programs in many ways but it will run without system or quicktime so you may be forced to use it on older systems it does need bit quickdraw so really old machines can t use it you can get it from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac app picture decompress hqx you must set the file type of a downloaded image file to jpeg to allow picture decompress to open it if your machine is too old to run bit quickdraw a mac plus for instance gifconverter is your only choice for single program jpeg viewing if you don t want to pay for gifconverter use jpeg convert and a free gif viewer more and more commercial mac applications are supporting jpeg although not all can deal with the usenet standard jfif format adobe photoshop version or later can read and write jfif format jpeg files use the jpeg plug in from the acquire menu you must set the file type of a downloaded jpeg file to jpeg to allow photoshop to recognize it amiga most programs listed in this section are stored in the aminet archive at amiga physik unizh ch there are many mirror sites of this archive and you should try to use the closest one in the usa a good choice is wuarchive wustl edu look under mirrors amiga physik unizh ch hamlab plus is an excellent jpeg viewer converter as well as being a general image manipulation tool it s cheap shareware and can read several formats besides jpeg the current version is a demo version is available from amiga physik unizh ch and mirror sites file amiga gfx edit hamlab d lha the demo version will crop images larger than x but it is otherwise fully functional rend shareware is an image renderer that can display jpeg ilbm and gif images the program can be used to create animations even capturing frames on the fly from rendering packages like lightwave the current version is available from amiga physik unizh ch and mirror sites file amiga os gfx rend lha note although this directory is supposedly for amigados programs the program will also run under amigados or viewtek is a free jpeg ilbm gif anim viewer the current version is available from amiga physik unizh ch and mirror sites file amiga gfx show viewtek lha if you re willing to spend real money there are several commercial packages that support jpeg two are written by thomas krehbiel the author of rend and viewtek these are cinemorph a standalone image morphing package and imagefx an impressive bit image capture conversion editing painting effects and prepress package that also includes cinemorph both are distributed by great valley products art department professional adpro from asdg inc is the most widely used commercial image manipulation software for amigas imagemaster from black belt systems is another well regarded commercial graphics package with jpeg support the free ijg jpeg software is available compiled for amigas from amiga physik unizh ch and mirror sites in directory amiga gfx conv file amigajpegv lha these programs convert jpeg to from ppm gif targa formats the amiga world is heavily infested with quick and dirty jpeg programs many based on an ancient beta test version of the free ijg jpeg software thanks to a certain magazine that published same on its disk of the month without so much as notifying the authors among these are augjpeg newamyjpeg vjpeg and probably others i have not even heard of in my opinion anything older than ijg version march is not worth the disk space it s stored on if you have such a program trash it and get something newer atari st the free ijg jpeg software is available compiled for atari st tt etc from atari archive umich edu file atari graphics jpeg bin zoo these programs convert jpeg to from ppm gif targa formats for monochrome st monitors try mgif which manages to achieve four level grayscale effect by flickering version reads jpeg files available from atari archive umich edu file atari graphics mgif b zoo i have not heard of any other free or shareware jpeg capable viewers for ataris but surely there must be some by now pointers appreciated acorn archimedes changefsi supplied with risc os version can convert from and view jpeg jfif format provision is also made to convert images to jpeg although this must be done from the cli rather than by double clicking recent versions since of the shareware program translator can handle jpeg along with about other image formats while older versions can be found on some archimedes bboards the current version is only available by registering with the author john kortink nutterbrink wj enschede the netherlands price dutch guilders about or pounds there s also a commercial product called jpeg which provides jpeg read write functionality and direct jpeg viewing as well as a host of other image format conversion and processing options this is more expensive but not necessarily better than the above programs contact dt software freepost cambridge uk tel portable software for almost any system if none of the above fits your situation you can obtain and compile the free jpeg conversion software described in b you ll also need a viewer program if your display is bits or less any gif viewer will do fine if you have a display with more color capability try to find a viewer that can read targa or ppm bit image files there are numerous commercial jpeg offerings with more popping up every day i recommend that you not spend money on one of these unless you find the available free or shareware software vastly too slow in that case purchase a hardware assisted product ask pointed questions about whether the product complies with the final jpeg standard and about whether it can handle the jfif file format many of the earliest commercial releases are not and never will be compatible with anyone else s files b if you are looking for source code to work with free portable c code for jpeg compression is available from the independent jpeg group which i lead a package containing our source code documentation and some small test files is available from several places the official archive site for this source code is ftp uu net or look under directory graphics jpeg the current release is jpegsrc v tar z this is a compressed tar file don t forget to retrieve in binary mode you can retrieve this file by ftp or uucp if you are on a pc and don t know how to cope with tar z format you may prefer zip format which you can find at simtel and mirror sites see note above file msdos graphics jpegsrc zip this file will also be available on compuserve in the graphsupport forum go pics library as jpsrc zip if you have no ftp access you can retrieve the source from your nearest comp sources misc archive version appeared as issues of volume if you don t know how to retrieve comp sources misc postings see the faq article how to find sources referred to at the top of section the free jpeg code provides conversion between jpeg jfif format and image files in gif pbmplus ppm pgm utah rle and truevision targa file formats the core compression and decompression modules can easily be reused in other programs such as image viewers the package is highly portable we have tested it on many machines ranging from pcs to crays we have released this software for both noncommercial and commercial use companies are welcome to use it as the basis for jpeg related products we do not ask a royalty although we do ask for an acknowledgement in product literature see the readme file in the distribution for details we hope to make this software industrial quality although as with anything that s free we offer no warranty and accept no liability the independent jpeg group is a volunteer organization if you d like to contribute to improving our software you are welcome to join what s all this hoopla about color quantization most people don t have full color bit per pixel display hardware typical display hardware stores or fewer bits per pixel so it can display or fewer distinct colors at a time to display a full color image the computer must map the image into an appropriate set of representative colors this process is called color quantization this is something of a misnomer color selection would be a better term we re stuck with the standard usage though clearly color quantization is a lossy process it turns out that for most images the details of the color quantization algorithm have much more impact on the final image quality than do any errors introduced by jpeg except at the very lowest jpeg quality settings since jpeg is a full color format converting a color jpeg image for display on bit or less hardware requires color quantization this is true for all color jpegs even if you feed a or less color gif into jpeg what comes out of the decompressor is not colors but thousands of colors this happens because jpeg s lossiness affects each pixel a little differently so two pixels that started with identical colors will probably come out with slightly different colors each original color gets smeared into a group of nearby colors therefore quantization is always required to display a color jpeg on a colormapped display regardless of the image source the only way to avoid quantization is to ask for gray scale output incidentally because of this effect it s nearly meaningless to talk about the number of colors used by a jpeg image even if you attempted to count the number of distinct pixel values different jpeg decoders would give you different results because of roundoff error differences i occasionally see posted images described as color jpeg this tells me that the poster a hasn t read this faq and b probably converted the jpeg from a gif jpegs can be classified as color or gray scale just like photographs but number of colors just isn t a useful concept for jpeg on the other hand a gif image by definition has already been quantized to or fewer colors a gif does have a definite number of colors in its palette and the format doesn t allow more than palette entries for purposes of usenet picture distribution gif has the advantage that the sender precomputes the color quantization so recipients don t have to this is also the disadvantage of gif you re stuck with the sender s quantization if the sender quantized to a different number of colors than what you can display you have to re quantize resulting in much poorer image quality than if you had quantized once from a full color image furthermore if the sender didn t use a high quality color quantization algorithm you re out of luck for this reason jpeg offers the promise of significantly better image quality for all users whose machines don t match the sender s display hardware jpeg s full color image can be quantized to precisely match the user s display hardware furthermore you will be able to take advantage of future improvements in quantization algorithms there is a lot of active research in this area or purchase better display hardware to get a better view of jpeg images you already have with a gif you re stuck forevermore with what was sent it s also worth mentioning that many gif viewing programs include rather shoddy quantization routines if you view a color gif on a color ega display for example you are probably getting a much worse image than you need to this is partly an inevitable consequence of doing two color quantizations one to create the gif one to display it but often it s also due to sloppiness jpeg conversion programs will be forced to use high quality quantizers in order to get acceptable results at all and in normal use they will quantize directly to the number of colors to be displayed thus jpeg is likely to provide better results than the average gif program for low color resolution displays as well as high resolution ones finally an ever growing number of people have better than bit display hardware already bit hi color pc displays true bit displays on workstations and macintoshes etc for these people gif is already obsolete as it cannot represent an image to the full capabilities of their display jpeg images can drive these displays much more effectively thus jpeg is an all around better choice than gif for representing images in a machine independent fashion how does jpeg work the buzz words to know are chrominance subsampling discrete cosine transforms coefficient quantization and huffman or arithmetic entropy coding this article s long enough already so i m not going to say more than that here for technical information see the comp compression faq this is available from the news answers archive at rtfm mit edu in files pub usenet news answers compression faq part if you need help in using the news answers archive see the top of this article what about lossless jpeg there s a great deal of confusion on this subject the jpeg committee did define a truly lossless compression algorithm i e one that guarantees the final output is bit for bit identical to the original input however this lossless mode has almost nothing in common with the regular lossy jpeg algorithm and it offers much less compression at present very few implementations of lossless jpeg exist and all of them are commercial saying q to the free jpeg software does not get you a lossless image what it does get rid of is deliberate information loss in the coefficient quantization step there is still a good deal of information loss in the color subsampling step with the v free jpeg code you can also say sample x to turn off subsampling keep in mind that many commercial jpeg implementations cannot cope with the resulting file even with both quantization and subsampling turned off the regular jpeg algorithm is not lossless because it is subject to roundoff errors in various calculations the maximum error is a few counts in any one pixel value it s highly unlikely that this could be perceived by the human eye but it might be a concern if you are doing machine processing of an image at this minimum loss setting regular jpeg produces files that are perhaps half the size of an uncompressed bit per pixel image true lossless jpeg provides roughly the same amount of compression but it guarantees bit for bit accuracy if you have an application requiring lossless storage of images with less than bits per pixel per color component you may want to look into the jbig bilevel image compression standard this performs better than jpeg lossless on such images jpeg lossless is superior to jbig on images with or more bits per pixel furthermore jpeg is public domain at least with a huffman back end while the jbig techniques are heavily covered by patents why all the argument about file formats strictly speaking jpeg refers only to a family of compression algorithms it does not refer to a specific image file format the jpeg committee was prevented from defining a file format by turf wars within the international standards organizations since we can t actually exchange images with anyone else unless we agree on a common file format this leaves us with a problem in the absence of official standards a number of jpeg program writers have just gone off to do their own thing and as a result their programs aren t compatible with anybody else s the closest thing we have to a de facto standard jpeg format is some work that s been coordinated by people at c cube microsystems they have defined two jpeg based file formats jfif jpeg file interchange format a low end format that transports pixels and not much else tiff jpeg aka tiff an extension of the aldus tiff format tiff is a high end format that will let you record just about everything you ever wanted to know about an image and a lot more besides tiff is a lot more complex than jfif and may well prove less transportable because different vendors have historically implemented slightly different and incompatible subsets of tiff it s not likely that adding jpeg to the mix will do anything to improve this situation both of these formats were developed with input from all the major vendors of jpeg related products it s reasonably likely that future commercial products will adhere to one or both standards i believe that usenet should adopt jfif as the replacement for gif in picture postings jfif is simpler than tiff and is available now the tiff spec has only recently been officially adopted and it is still unusably vague on some crucial details even when tiff jpeg is well defined the jfif format is likely to be a widely supported lowest common denominator tiff jpeg files may never be as transportable a particular case that people may be interested in is apple s quicktime software for the macintosh quicktime uses a jfif compatible format wrapped inside the mac specific pict structure conversion between jfif and quicktime jpeg is pretty straightforward and several mac programs are available to do it see mac portion of section a if you have an editor that handles binary files you can strip a quicktime jpeg pict down to jfif by hand see section for details another particular case is handmade software s programs gif jpg jpg gif and image alchemy these programs are capable of reading and writing jfif format by default though they write a proprietary format developed by hsi this format is not readable by any non hsi programs and should not be used for usenet postings use the j switch to get jfif output this applies to old versions of these programs the current releases emit jfif format by default you still should be careful not to post hsi format files unless you want to get flamed by people on non pc platforms how do i recognize which file format i have and what do i do about it if you have an alleged jpeg file that your software won t read it s likely to be hsi format or some other proprietary jpeg based format you can tell what you have by inspecting the first few bytes of the file a jfif standard file will start with the characters hex ff d ff e followed by two variable bytes often hex followed by jfif if you see ff d at the start but not the rest of it you may have a raw jpeg file this is probably decodable as is by jfif software it s worth a try anyway hsi files start with hsi you re out of luck unless you have hsi software portions of the file may look like plain jpeg data but they won t decompress properly with non hsi programs a macintosh pict file if jpeg compressed will have a couple hundred bytes of header followed by a jfif header scan for jfif strip off everything before the ff d and you should be able to read it anything else it s a proprietary format or not jpeg at all if you are lucky the file may consist of a header and a raw jpeg data stream if you can identify the start of the jpeg data stream look for ff d try stripping off everything before that in uuencoded usenet postings the characteristic jfif pattern is begin line m c x whereas uuencoded hsi files will start with begin line m i if you learn to check for the former you can save yourself the trouble of downloading non jfif files what about arithmetic coding the jpeg spec defines two different back end modules for the final output of compressed data either huffman coding or arithmetic coding is allowed the choice has no impact on image quality but arithmetic coding usually produces a smaller compressed file on typical images arithmetic coding produces a file or percent smaller than huffman coding all the file size numbers previously cited are for huffman coding unfortunately the particular variant of arithmetic coding specified by the jpeg standard is subject to patents owned by ibm at t and mitsubishi thus you cannot legally use arithmetic coding unless you obtain licenses from these companies the fair use doctrine allows people to implement and test the algorithm but actually storing any images with it is dubious at best at least in the short run i recommend that people not worry about arithmetic coding the space savings isn t great enough to justify the potential legal hassles in particular arithmetic coding should not be used for any images to be exchanged on usenet there is some small chance that the legal situation may change in the future stay tuned for further details does loss accumulate with repeated compression decompression it would be nice if having compressed an image with jpeg you could decompress it manipulate it crop off a border say and recompress it without any further image degradation beyond what you lost initially unfortunately this is not the case in general recompressing an altered image loses more information though usually not as much as was lost the first time around the next best thing would be that if you decompress an image and recompress it without changing it then there is no further loss i e you get an identical jpeg file even this is not true at least not with the current free jpeg software it s essentially a problem of accumulation of roundoff error if you repeatedly compress and decompress the image will eventually degrade to where you can see visible changes from the first generation output it usually takes many such cycles to get visible change one of the things on our to do list is to see if accumulation of error can be avoided or limited but i am not optimistic about it in any case the most that could possibly be guaranteed would be that compressing the unmodified full color output of djpeg at the original quality setting would introduce no further loss even such simple changes as cropping off a border could cause further roundoff error degradation if you re wondering why it s because the pixel block boundaries move if you cropped off only multiples of pixels you might be safe but that s a mighty limited capability the bottom line is that jpeg is a useful format for archival storage and transmission of images but you don t want to use it as an intermediate format for sequences of image manipulation steps use a lossless format ppm rle tiff etc while working on the image then jpeg it when you are ready to file it away aside from avoiding degradation you will save a lot of compression decompression time this way what are some rules of thumb for converting gif images to jpeg as stated earlier you will lose some amount of image information if you convert an existing gif image to jpeg if you can obtain the original full color data the gif was made from it s far better to make a jpeg from that but if you need to save space and have only the gif to work from here are some suggestions for getting maximum space savings with minimum loss of quality the first rule when converting a gif library is to look at each jpeg to make sure you are happy with it before throwing away the corresponding gif that will give you a chance to re do the conversion with a higher quality setting if necessary some gifs may be better left as gifs as explained in section in particular cartoon type gifs with sixteen or fewer colors don t convert well you may find that a jpeg file of reasonable quality will be larger than the gif so check the sizes too experience to date suggests that large high visual quality gifs are the best candidates for conversion to jpeg they chew up the most storage so offer the most potential savings and they convert to jpeg with least degradation don t waste your time converting any gif much under kbytes also don t expect jpeg files converted from gifs to be as small as those created directly from full color originals to maintain image quality you may have to let the converted files be as much as twice as big as straight through jpeg files would be i e shoot for or rd the size of the gif file not th as suggested in earlier comparisons many people have developed an odd habit of putting a large constant color border around a gif image while useless this was nearly free in terms of storage cost in gif files it is not free in jpeg files and the sharp border boundary can create visible artifacts ghost edges do yourself a favor and crop off any border before jpeging if you are on an x windows system xv s manual and automatic cropping functions are a very painless way to do this cjpeg s default q setting of is appropriate for full color input but for gif inputs q settings of to often seem to be necessary to avoid image degradation if you apply smoothing as suggested below the higher q setting may not be necessary color gifs of photographs or complex artwork are usually dithered to fool your eye into seeing more than the colors that gif can actually store if you enlarge the image you will see that adjacent pixels are often of significantly different colors at normal size the eye averages these pixels together to produce the illusion of an intermediate color value the trouble with dithering is that to jpeg it looks like high spatial frequency color noise and jpeg can t compress noise very well the resulting jpeg file is both larger and of lower image quality than what you would have gotten from jpeging the original full color image if you had it to get around this you want to smooth the gif image before compression smoothing averages together nearby pixels thus approximating the color that you thought you saw anyway and in the process getting rid of the rapid color changes that give jpeg trouble appropriate use of smoothing will often let you avoid using a high q factor thus further reducing the size of the compressed file while still obtaining a better looking output image than you d get without smoothing with the v free jpeg software or products based on it a simple smoothing capability is built in try smooth or so when converting gifs values of to seem to work well for high quality gifs heavy handed dithering may require larger smoothing factors if you can see regular fine scale patterns on the gif image even without enlargement then strong smoothing is definitely called for too large a smoothing factor will blur the output image which you don t want if you are an image processing wizard you can also do smoothing with a separate filtering program such as pnmconvol from the pbmplus package however cjpeg s built in smoother is a lot faster than pnmconvol the upshot of all this is that cjpeg quality smooth is probably a good starting point for converting gifs but if you really care about the image you ll want to check the results and maybe try a few other settings for more information about jpeg in general or the free jpeg software in particular contact the independent jpeg group at jpeg info uunet uu net tom lane organizer independent jpeg group internet tgl cs cmu edu bitnet tgl cs cmu edu carnegie
comp.graphics	re where did the hacker ethic go kendall opusii sears krsear ulkyvx louisville edu wrote or the biggest killer imo one s dreams are sadly shattered on the hard rocks of society s version of reality without the dream the motivation dies without the motivation the effort seems useless actually there are more possibilities one is that with practice the hacker has become so good and powerful in manipulating data streams that s he goes simply underground possessing true power perhaps there is no need to impress anyone with it grady netcom com ef e ad d d c f fc ac f d f e f
comp.graphics	re adobe photo shop type software for unix x motif platforms appsoft image is available for nextstep it is a image processing program similar to adobe photoshop it is reviewed in the april issue of publish magazine richardt
comp.graphics	re adobe photo shop type software for unix x motif platforms charles boesel writes in article c w xb iv world std com sci image processing comp graphics wdm world std com wayne michael writes i have been searching for a quality image enhancement and manipulation package for unix x motif platforms that is comparable to adobe photo shop for the mac stuff deleted i understand that adobe is working on making photoshop available for the sgi indigo but that is just rumor and i wouldn t bet on it until i see it but they are going to release illustrator for the sgi real soon now illustrator for sgi is a shipping product adobe and sgi have announced that photoshop is being ported to sgi machines a simillar announcement has been made by adobe and sun for sun platforms no dates have been announced to the best of my knowledge zalman stern zalman adobe com adobe systems charleston rd pob mountain view ca we re just a couple of joyful little pervo goats akbar jeff
comp.graphics	re where did the hacker ethic go on a more cheerful note perhaps hackerism hacking isn t completely dead as someone else said take the gnu offerings for example free redistributable and often better than the commercial stuff take also the number of papers published every year in all the fields of computer science the vast majority of these papers detail original work of real often exceptional merit and the authors are sharing this knowledge have fun roddi
comp.graphics	re where did the hacker ethic go i think the main reason is that in the good old hacker days of the young er gates and jobs of the world the computer was not as widespread a phenomenom as it is now with the increased popularity of the pc come a plethora of mundane business uses which required more practical minded and narrower focused programmers why be a hacker when you can get a good job programming databases or programs for accountants basically the yuppies caught up and disciplined the hackers and molded them in their own image carl christensen dept of computer science christen astro ocis temple edu temple university curiouser and curiouser lc philadelphia pa usa
comp.graphics	wanted d rendering lib for pc does any one know of a decent quality library of routines for performing d graphics modelling on the pc ideally the routines would be embeded in our application program requirements wish list flat surface modelling simple phong shading optional ability to plot hidden line drawings texture mapping both procedural and bit map modeling light sources local distant and spot lights ray tracing radiosity optional any comments would be appreciated john chinnick jchinnic mach wlu ca phone john chinnick jchinnic mach wlu ca
comp.graphics	vesa driver for xga i heard that there is a vesa driver for the xga card available on compuserve i just got this card and i am wondering if this driver is available on a ftp site anywhere my news service has beeen erratic lately so please e mail me at walsh stolaf edu thanks in advance
comp.graphics	help with world to screen x transfomation matrix i need help in creating my x perspective matrix i d like to use this for transforming x y z w in some texture mapping code i got from graphics gems i i have many books which talk about this but none of them in simple plain english if you have graphics gems i i m talking about page i d like to have a perspective matrix that handles different field of views and aspect of course thank s for your help yes of course everything i say is my personal opinion robert j c kyanko rob rjck oau org or rob rjck uucp
comp.graphics	access bus re access bus software creator s contest intro to access bus re the access bus software creator s contest announcement what is access bus access bus is a new open industry standard for computer peripheral connectivity access bus is a serial protocol that uses simple low cost i c technology to link multiple devices to a single pc port peripheral devices such as keyboards or keypads locators mice trackballs joysticks printers vr gloves digitizers sensors actuators or data transmitters and others can be easily daisy chained to the host pc applications such as cad cam data acquisition simulation virtual reality multiple player single pc games education and many many more can now take advantage of access bus the technology that puts plug and play on every pc the access bus offers advantages to end users and developers of systems and peripherals multiple devices connect to the host computer with only one port common communication methods for a number of device types lead to simplified hardware and software development as an open standard access bus enables cross platform use of the same device access bus technological description access bus technology is an open specification enabling anyone to implement it on host systems or in peripheral devices without fee or royalty access bus has a bus topology architecture that is a single host can accommodate up to peripheral devices access bus data rate is kbits sec access bus physical layer access bus is a serial bus architecture based on i c hardware protocol with one data line and one clock line standard low cost i c microcontrollers handle bit level handshaking including automatic arbitration and clock synchronization access bus software protocols the access bus communication protocol is composed of three levels i c protocol base protocol and application protocol i c protocol this simple and efficient protocol defines arbitration among contending masters without losing data i c provides for cooperative synchronization of bus partners with different clock rates bus transactions include addressing framing of bits into bytes and byte acknowledgment by the receiver base protocol establishes the asymmetrical interconnect between a host computer and multiple peripherals the host becomes the access bus manager the base protocol defines the format of an access bus message envelope which is an i c bus transaction with additional semantics including checksum unique features of the base protocol are auto addressing and hot plugging auto addressing assigns devices with unique bus addresses without the need for setting jumpers or switches hot plugging is the ability to attach and detach devices while the system is running without rebooting application protocol this is the highest level of the access bus protocol which defines message semantics specific to particular types of devices each type requires a different application protocol three broad device types have been identified keyboards locators and text devices access bus support on the pc all three levels of the access bus protocol are supported on the pc an add on card implements the physical layer and uses the base protocol to communicate with physical access bus devices an access bus manager tsr under dos and a dll under windows controls the operation of the physical layer and interacts with the access bus device drivers drivers are available for multiple access bus keyboards locators and printers for dos and windows also available are c language source code examples of the interface from applications to the device drivers to contact abig the access bus industry group postal address altair way suite sunnyvale ca internet email abig netcom com fax voice
comp.graphics	call for papers for informatika vol no this is an invitation to send articles to the informatica magazine the first fully international issue has been published and echoes are quite favourable for any information contact matjaz gams ijs si dear colleague april number of volume of informatica is now out of print and some of you will receive it in a week or so as you will see the journal is structured in the following way the editorial first page profiles second page biography of an editor in this issue terry winograd the edited part of papers pp mission and research reports a plan for knowledge archives project in japan and csli in stanford pp and news and announcements pp this structure is mentioned to give you a suggestion how could you help to make the contents of the journal significant diverse and interesting bringing your own views into the discourse a great emphasis is given to the so called editorial page this page expresses an opinion belief of the writing editor to some problems within the scope of computing and informatics extending into other concerning disciplines e g cybernetics advanced ai cognitive sciences mind informationally concerned neural sciences advanced technology e g photonics etc i asked professor terry winograd to write this page for number i certainly would appreciate very much to get suggestions or possible offers from other editors who like to express their strong directed beliefs concerning a future development of the area in question on the second page of each number an editor s profile is published the aim of the profile is twofold to show his her professional achievements interests scientific and philosophical orientation on one side to narrate his her life story in the environments in which editors has lived and live on the other side this kind of story should be instructive adequately factically faced contributing to the understanding of circumstances in which editors have to act and live the edited part edited papers is still critical i would like to have a stock of accepted papers in advance so the issuing dates of a particular number can be fixed e g january april july and october in situation right now i ask you to help me with contributions of yours or your colleagues collaborators students etc some critical views to the contemporary development of computing and informatics are appreciated a special emphasis should be given also to originality by which fresh ideas are coming into the circulation of different professional communities reports of different occasions symposia conferences meetings etc and particularly on new books papers and interesting events are welcome you can send these news immediately also by your secretary by e mail on the other hand you can send books and other publications annual reports journals calls for papers etc for reviewing and publishing in informatica we in the editorial staff will manage the rest e mail is functioning satisfactorily so please use it in every respect you can submit editorial notes profiles reports news and even complete papers written in standard latex format especially formulas we received several final corrected texts in number from different sites us russia etc in this way you can compose reports from already typed texts using your own choice and editing and submit them to the contact person matjaz gams ijs si who is always being on your disposal so you will receive a prompt confirmation and any information concerning our common interest and job at the end please do not forget we need your cooperation and help in every mentioned respect the aim of informatica is to open various possibilities of communication concerning strong scientific and philosophical orientations as well as those coming up still unrevealed and on the way to become significant please do not apprehend to give proposals suggestions and certainly contributions via the e mail and by other means sincerely yours anton p zeleznikar editor in chief
comp.graphics	re anti aliasing raytracing question in article slb lbu mserv dl ac uk g coulter daresbury ac uk writes hi everyone i was woundering if someone could answer a simple query for me on raytracing and anti aliasing stuff deleted i have a similiar question relating to anti alaising that my friend has asked to have posted to the more knowledgable in this group i m sorry if this is an faq what anti alaising methods do persistance of vision polyray use thank you in advance you can either email me or reply or flame me if it is an faq dwa
comp.graphics	need c algorithm which decide whether a d point is inside a space defined by planes hey i am looking for c algorithm which decide whether a d point is inside a space which was defined by x d points with a space defined by x d points i mean a space defined by closed d meshes defined by points like this but in this simple example the sides are parallel but my problem the sides can be non parallel and the opposite sides must not have the same size etc please mail me your informations thanks for your great efforts oliver name o kretzschmar inst ike university stuttgart phone pfaffenwaldring fax stuttgart email wnkretz ikesg energietechnik uni stuttgart de
comp.graphics	re help with world to screen x transfomation matrix in article c vnmv g rjck uucp rob rjck uucp robert j c kyanko writes i need help in creating my x perspective matrix i d like to use this for transforming x y z w in some texture mapping code i got from graphics gems i i have many books which talk about this but none of them in simple plain english if you have graphics gems i i m talking about page i d like to have a perspective matrix that handles different field of views and aspect of course thank s for your help ca cos alpha horizontal sa sin alpha cb cos beta vertical sb sin beta zf far clipping value zn near clipping value matrix ca sa cb sb zf zf zn zn zf zf zn geir atle storhaug geir a storhaug vm ffi no phone office home
comp.graphics	graphics library gl for hp and sun we are looking for gl source code which was developed by silicon graphics sgi we would like to compile it on sun and hp s if there is anyone already supporting gl on hp and sun please respond also please respond if anyone knows where the source code is available thank you chandra sbi com jon sbi com
comp.graphics	re svga hicolor johan conroy jconroy babel ee up ac za wrote i have a question about svga cards i have a tseng svga with mb memory and x bit dacs as far as i know to display a x x now can i display x bit pixel bit maps on this card you can at the least your hardware is capable of supporting this mode i do know nothing about your video bios though if so how silly but fool proof way install windows with x x k colors wideo driver and display your pictures under windows cheese serge p
comp.graphics	d images can anyone around here point me to information regarding stereoscopic images i believe i saw some at a show room in texas lone star illusions and they were amazing i ve now heard that they were created with a simple graphic program does anyone have any of these images digitized i really want to find a out as much as i can thanks brian ccnext ucsf edu please reply to this address
comp.graphics	compositing pictures on pc i was wondering if anyone knows of a graphics package for the pc that will do compositing of a series of pictures what i mean by compositing is say i have a live video clip digitized panning around a living room and a computer generated bird flying around the screen i want to combine these two series of pictures so that everywhere where the bird frames are black i want the living room picture to show through yes i realize i can do this with a genlock and i do own a genlock but i want to be able to do manual compositing also it s ok if i have to composite one frame at a time i assumed i d have to do that anyway but being able to composite a series of frames would be even better i ve looked around and i haven t found a pc package that will perform this help please
comp.graphics	re compositing pictures on pc in article may torreypinesca ncr com chu torreypinesca ncr com patrick chu writes i was wondering if anyone knows of a graphics package for the pc that will do compositing of a series of pictures what i mean by compositing is say i have a live video clip digitized panning around a living room and a computer generated bird flying around the screen i want to combine these two series of pictures so that everywhere where the bird frames are black i want the living room picture to show through yes i realize i can do this with a genlock and i do own a genlock but i want to be able to do manual compositing also it s ok if i have to composite one frame at a time i assumed i d have to do that anyway but being able to composite a series of frames would be even better i ve looked around and i haven t found a pc package that will perform this help please if you can get the live animation and the computer generated animation into autodesk animator fli or flc format autodesk animator will do this for you it can take one animation make a certain color clear and overlay it over another animation i do not have a way right now to convert avi or mpg files to animator files animator will also import a series of gif files to create an animation so if your video capture stuff can create this is might work vance gloster gloster inference com
comp.graphics	tga viewer for ati ultra hello the subject line says it all i m looking for a tga file viewer for the ati ultra card it should support the true color modes of course if someone knows where to find one via ftp please let me know thanx oliver klimek
comp.graphics	gamma correction can someone who knows what they re talking about add a faq entry on gamma correction thanks mark
comp.graphics	re where did the hacker ethic go in sp qj dorsai dorsai org crawls dorsai dorsai org charles rawls writes the hacker ethic is alive and well here i know of what you speak and my only answer is screw em you have to do what make you feel right amen i too have learned by example specifically yours what can i say but keep the faith there are others who do likewise but dorsai leads the way unlike other services that are commercial in nature dorsai is a community based service while others charge monthly fees for access dorsai accepts donations from those who can afford to contribute while other systems don t respond to user input dorsai thrives on it other systems sell hardware for a profit dorsai donates hardware to community service groups and to individuals who couldn t afford to normally dorsai lives due to the hacker ethic of charles jack skip cara ira mark david etc etc etc sleepless nights and days working on equipment thats been assembled at the embassy and modifying what ever else available to work the first time in order to keep the slip line up heres to you bud i m one of the few that decided to stay and am damn glad that i did carlos dominguez sys admin owner kibbitzer o o ooo ooo root carlos uucp or uupsi jpradley carlos carlos ask me about helldiver carlos carlos jpr com guaranteed address
comp.graphics	re vga graphics library in article mwca uucp bill mwca uucp bill sheppard writes many high end graphics cards come with c source code for doing basic graphics sorts of things change colors draw points lines polygons fills etc does such a library exist for generic vga graphics cards chips hopefully in the public domain this would be for the purpose of compiling under a non dos operating system running on a standard pc check the server code for x r or xfree daniel un x ortmann talmidim ndsu electrical engineering ortmann plains nodak edu shalom fargo north dakota
comp.graphics	autodesk bbs does autodesk has a bbs
comp.graphics	re siggraph online experimental publication available try cd ing to publications may online on siggraph org it s there rosalee
comp.graphics	pov animating in an attempt to do animation with pov i have created two little programs one is a c program that will perform a morph between any two points given the amount of frames for the morph and then it will write the points and the function translate rotate etc out to a file then i have a perl script that will read the list of functions and insert them into a pov file at a given line i had hoped this would let me do simple animation however i have discovered that simply performing incremental rotations on an object will not spin a stationary object but will actually rotate the object about the axis now i know an easy way around this would be to first translate the object to the origin perform the rotation and then move it back but i know there must be another way around this i had thought perhaps it was because i had created objects at the origin and then translated them to a new point and then done the rotation which could cause this behavior however this occurs on objects that are not translated at all any help is appreciated ttknock bbs santafe edu
comp.graphics	gifs on a tek x i was skimming through a few gophers and bumped into one at nih with a database that included images in gif format while i have not yet worked out the kinks of getting the gopher client to call an x viewer i figure that the majority of the users here are not in an x environment instead using dos and ms kermit with kermit supporting tek emulation for graphics display does anyone know of a package that would allow a tek to display a gif image it would be of more use to the local population to plug something of this sort in as the picture command instead of xview or xloadimage andrew brennan hal hahnemann edu
comp.graphics	re products to handle hdtv moving pircture mb sec kazsato twics co jp writes hi i d like to know if there is any system cpu hd array framebuffer which can play and record hdtv quality moving picture in realtime hdtv has about mb frame so recording playing moving picture will need about mb sec bandwidth i m thinking to treat the raw data not compressed finding a disk array that can do mb sec will be difficult the fastest ones i know about are from maximum strategy ibm also sells these they can attach hippi at up to mb sec bit for these kinds of data rates you need more than scsi for connections their latest model the raid model gen only does mb sec but i think this may be a limitation only of the hippi channel and that customer needs have not exceeded that speed since their older model was faster they are also not idle must be working on newer products that might be faster and are a small company so you might be able to ask about custom interfaces they still marketed the older faster model as of a few mongths ago maximum strategy inc buckeye court milpitas ca sales maxstrat com you might still want to look into compression as it will be very difficult to keep the hippi bus fully working at all times sustained throughput might come close to maximum burst rate interesting problem tell us more if you can if anyone can advise me what kind of product i should look into please e mail me i will appriciate it the vendor s e mail address price of the products actual performance data of the products any info will help me thanks in advance kaz sato tokyo japan e mail kazsato twics co jp dick wilmot editor independent raid report
comp.graphics	wanted mpeg description or sources encoders decoders please help with mpeg description or sources decoders encoders great thanks in advance maximus wb origin mister postman bbs
comp.graphics	re gif to dstudio as far as simply mapping your logo or whatever onto a cube or sphere it s quite easy just either copy the gif you want mapped into the map directory or add a map path to the directory where it currently is then go into the materials editor and make a new material with that as the bit map voila h e y b e r e n zippy cyberden sf ca us the cyberden public access waffle usenet system
comp.graphics	re where did the hacker ethic go in article may vxcrna cern ch filipe vxcrna cern ch vinci writes blah blah talking about hackers you know wow a new proof for an np complete problem you guys in eurpoe really got your stuff together base step deleted too bad inductive step but anyway poor golfers bad carpenters or bad surgeons are not thieves so your assertion that hacker thief is unsupported by your argument imho the narrower view that a hacker when associated with the computing environment is a dishonest expert is not so widespread inductive hypothesis therefore i conclude that if you call yourself a hacker and somebody perceives you as a thief then this person belongs to a very very small group that has some computer knowledge but not enough to know the wider and original meaning of the word of course one can always know this and disregard it nonetheless then equate hacker to thief giving substance to mr humpty s assertion even though in a kind of reverse way fodder step finally a true hacker does not name himself herself one for this is a title that is bestowed by the befuddled sysadmins and users at large to me a sign of a truly great hacker is to be introduced to someone who says nahh i just know a thing or two people always exagerate filipe santos english is not my first language so plse be forgetful of my mistakes like my mother always said if you can t say something nice or was that can t say something right kxh this is the signature file what do you think
comp.graphics	pov tga i m having a slight problem with the pov raytracer i m not sure if this is the correct group to post to or not i create tga files on a unix machine using pov then when i download them to display on my pc they re listed as bad files but when i create the file on my pc it displays fine are unix tga s incompatible with the pc an easy solution to this problem would be a unix targa gif converter anyone know where i could find one any help on this subject is appreciated kevin
comp.graphics	tex texture map format i was at avalon today and found texture maps in some tex and txc format something i ve never encountered before these are obviously not tex or latex files if you have a clue how i can convert these to something reasonable please let me know brian
comp.graphics	re gamma correction in article t meinnrc gap caltech edu madler cco caltech edu mark adler writes can someone who knows what they re talking about add a faq entry on gamma correction thanks i get regular questions about gamma correction since i go to great pains to deal with it properly in xli the image loader program i maintain here is an explanation i often use to answer these questions this might be suitable for inclusion in the faq graeme gill a note on gamma correction and images author graeme w gill graeme labtam oz au date what is all this gamma stuff anyway although it would be nice to think that an image is an image there are a lot of complications not only are there a whole bunch of different image formats gif jpeg tiff etc etc there is a whole lot of other technical stuff that makes dealing with images a bit complicated gamma is one of those things if you ve ever downloaded images from bbs or the net you ve probably noticed with most image viewing programs that some images look ok some look too dark and some look too light why is this you may ask this is gamma correction or the lack of it why do we need gamma correction at all gamma correction is needed because of the nature of crts cathode ray tubes the monitors usually used for viewing images if you have some sort of real live scene and turn it into a computer image by measuring the amount of light coming from each point of the scene then you have created a linear or un gamma corrected image this is a good thing in many ways because you can manipulate the image as if the values in the image file were light ie adding and multiplying will work just like real light in the real world now if you take the image file and turn each pixel value into a voltage and feed it into a crt you find that the crt doesn t give you an amount of light proportional to the voltage the amount of light coming from the phosphor in the screen depends on the the voltage something like this light out voltage crt gamma so if you just dump your nice linear image out to a crt the image will look much too dark to fix this up you have to gamma correct the image first you need to do the opposite of what the crt will do to the image so that things cancel out and you get what you want so you have to do this to your image gamma corrected image image crt gamma for most crts the crt gamma is somewhere between and if that is all it is why does it seem so complicated the problem is that not all display programs do gamma correction also not all sources of images give you linear images video cameras or video signals in general because of this a lot of images already have some gamma correction done to them and you are rarely sure how much if you try and display one of those images with a program that does gamma correction for you the image gets corrected twice and looks way to light if you display one of those images with a program that doesn t do gamma correction then it will look vaguely right but not perfect because the gamma correction is not exactly right for you particular crt whose fault is all this it is really three things one is all those display programs out there that don t do gamma correction properly another is that most image formats don t specify a standard gamma or don t have some way or recording what their gamma correction is the third thing is that not many people understand what gamma correction is all about and create a lot of images with varying gamma s at least two file formats do the right thing the utah graphics toolkit rle format has a semi standard way of recording the gamma of an image the jfif file standard that uses jpeg compression specifies that the image to be encoded must have a gamma of ie a linear image but not everyone obeys the rules some image loaders for instance xli an x image utility allow you to specify not only the gamma of the monitor you are using but the individual gamma values of image you are trying to view other image viewers eg xv another x image program and utilities eg the pbm toolkit provide ways of changing the gamma of an image but you have to figure out the overall gamma correction yourself allowing for undoing any gamma correction the image has and then the gamma correction you need to suite your crt monitor note that xv doesn t provide an easy way of modifying the gamma of an image you need to adjust the r g and b curves to the appropriate gamma in the coledit controls altering the intensity in the hsv controls doesn t do the right thing as it fails to take account of the effect gamma has on h and s this tends to give a tint to the image how can i figure out what my viewer does or what gamma my screen has the simplest way to do that is to try loading the file chkgamma jpg provided with xli distribution which is a jfif jpeg format file containing two grayscale ramps the ramps are chosen to look linear to the human eye one using continuous tones and the other using dithering if your viewer does the right thing and gamma corrects images then the two ramps should look symmetrical and the point at which they look equally bright should be almost exactly half way from the top to the bottom to find this point it helps if you move away a little from the screen and de focus your eyes a bit if your viewer doesn t do gamma correction then left hand ramp will have a long dark part and a short white part and the point of equal brightness will be above the center if your viewer does have a way of setting the right amount of gamma correction for a display then if the equal brightness point is above center increase the gamma and decrease it if it is below the center the value will usually be around with xli for instance you can adjust the display gamma with the dispgamma flag and once you ve got it right you can set the display gamma environment variable in your profile how do i figure out what the gamma of an image is this is the most tricky bit as a general rule it seems that a lot of true color ie bit ppm jpg images have a gamma of linear although there are many about that have some gamma correction it seems that the majority of pseudo color images ie bit images with color maps gif etc are gamma corrected to some degree or other if your viewer does gamma correction then linear images will look good and gamma corrected images will look too light if your viewer doesn t do gamma correction then linear images will look too dark and gamma corrected images will ok why linear images are sometimes not such a good thing one of the reason that many high quality formats such as video use gamma correction is that it actually makes better use of the storage medium this is because the human eye has a logarithmic response to light and gamma correction has a similar compression characteristic this means images could make better use of bits per color for instance if they used gamma correction the implication though is that every time you want to do any image processing you should convert the bit image to or so linear bits to retain the same accuracy since little popular software does this and none of the popular image formats can agree on a standard gamma correction factor it is difficult to justify gamma corrected images at the popular level if some image formats can standardize on a particular gamma and if image manipulation software takes care to use extra precision when dealing with linearized internal data then gamma corrected distribution of images would be a good thing i am told that the kodak photocd format for instance has a standard gamma correction factor that enables it to get the highest quality out of the bits used to hold the image
comp.graphics	help a rectangle and parallelogram i hope someone can help me with the following problem i m sure there must be a known solution given a rectangle defined by x x x and y y y where x and y are constant and a parallelogram defined by c a x b y c and c c x d y c where c c a b c d are constants and b a d c i e not parallel lines not equal to what is the area of their intersection what i m after is some general algorithm suitable for all rectangles and parallelograms that can be described by the above equations at the moment it looks like i m going to have to look at all possible cases and examine each seperately e g rectangle encloses parallelogram parallelogram encloses rectangle two corners of parallelogram inside rectangle y y origin y y x x two corners of parallelogram outside rectangle i hope someone can help many thanks in advance dave nettleton e mail d j nettleton durham ac uk ps can you please cc me any replies by e mail
comp.graphics	re pict epsf etc map of italy in article chunter umab bitnet chunter umab bitnet writes does anybody know where i can get a graphic mac pict epsf tiff gif whatever of italy i m looking for a picture of a map of italy even just the a map of italy showing the states provinces is in the freehand for windows clip art collection corel draw clip art has an outline map of italy jim powlesland internet powlesla acs ucalgary ca academic computing services voice university of calgary message calgary alberta canada t n n fax
comp.graphics	comp graphics faq is there a comp graphics faq and if so where jim powlesland internet powlesla acs ucalgary ca academic computing services voice university of calgary message calgary alberta canada t n n fax
comp.graphics	help animation for pcx gif files hi i ve a series of images in sun raster formats i ve converted them to pcx formats i can do the conversion to others like gif as well i would like to know of any software that is able to do animation for these formats and to record the animation onto a video tape thank you leong wai ming internet engp nusunix nus sg national university of singapore bitnet engp nusvm nus sg
comp.graphics	re information on bmp files in article gnbich med uovs ac za gnbich med uovs ac za charles herbst biofisika writes is there anybody who can help me with information on the bmp file format please mail directly to gnbich med uovs ac za help will be appreciated charles herbst i have also been looking for this but i have come up with nothing i have looked in ftp ncsa uiuc edu which is supposed to have a lot of image specs email is preferred if there is enough interest i will post a summary lise unit no
comp.graphics	jpeg image compression frequently asked questions archive name jpeg faq last modified may this faq article discusses jpeg image compression suggestions for additions and clarifications are welcome new since version of may added info on imageviewer for next this article includes the following sections what is jpeg why use jpeg when should i use jpeg and when should i stick with gif how well does jpeg compress images what are good quality settings for jpeg where can i get jpeg software a canned software viewers etc b source code what s all this hoopla about color quantization how does jpeg work what about lossless jpeg why all the argument about file formats how do i recognize which file format i have and what do i do about it what about arithmetic coding does loss accumulate with repeated compression decompression what are some rules of thumb for converting gif images to jpeg sections are basic info that every jpeg user needs to know sections are advanced info for the curious this article is posted every weeks you can always find the latest version in the news answers archive at rtfm mit edu by ftp fetch pub usenet news answers jpeg faq or if you don t have ftp send e mail to mail server rtfm mit edu with body send usenet news answers jpeg faq many other faq articles are also stored in this archive for more instructions on use of the archive send e mail to the same address with the words help and index no quotes on separate lines if you don t get a reply the server may be misreading your return address add a line such as path myname mysite to specify your correct e mail address to reply to what is jpeg jpeg pronounced jay peg is a standardized image compression mechanism jpeg stands for joint photographic experts group the original name of the committee that wrote the standard jpeg is designed for compressing either full color or gray scale digital images of natural real world scenes it does not work so well on non realistic images such as cartoons or line drawings jpeg does not handle black and white bit per pixel images nor does it handle motion picture compression standards for compressing those types of images are being worked on by other committees named jbig and mpeg respectively jpeg is lossy meaning that the image you get out of decompression isn t quite identical to what you originally put in the algorithm achieves much of its compression by exploiting known limitations of the human eye notably the fact that small color details aren t perceived as well as small details of light and dark thus jpeg is intended for compressing images that will be looked at by humans if you plan to machine analyze your images the small errors introduced by jpeg may be a problem for you even if they are invisible to the eye a useful property of jpeg is that the degree of lossiness can be varied by adjusting compression parameters this means that the image maker can trade off file size against output image quality you can make extremely small files if you don t mind poor quality this is useful for indexing image archives making thumbnail views or icons etc etc conversely if you aren t happy with the output quality at the default compression setting you can jack up the quality until you are satisfied and accept lesser compression why use jpeg there are two good reasons to make your image files smaller and to store bit per pixel color data instead of bit per pixel data making image files smaller is a big win for transmitting files across networks and for archiving libraries of images being able to compress a mbyte full color file down to kbytes or so makes a big difference in disk space and transmission time if you are comparing gif and jpeg the size ratio is more like four to one more details below if your viewing software doesn t support jpeg directly you ll have to convert jpeg to some other format for viewing or manipulating images even with a jpeg capable viewer it takes longer to decode and view a jpeg image than to view an image of a simpler format gif for instance thus using jpeg is essentially a time space tradeoff you give up some time in order to store or transmit an image more cheaply it s worth noting that when network or phone transmission is involved the time savings from transferring a shorter file can be much greater than the extra time to decompress the file i ll let you do the arithmetic yourself the other reason why jpeg will gradually replace gif as a standard usenet posting format is that jpeg can store full color information bits pixel million colors instead of or less or fewer colors if you have only bit display hardware then this may not seem like much of an advantage to you within a couple of years though bit gif will look as obsolete as black and white macpaint format does today furthermore for reasons detailed in section jpeg is far more useful than gif for exchanging images among people with widely varying color display hardware hence jpeg is considerably more appropriate than gif for use as a usenet posting standard when should i use jpeg and when should i stick with gif jpeg is not going to displace gif entirely for some types of images gif is superior in image quality file size or both one of the first things to learn about jpeg is which kinds of images to apply it to as a rule of thumb jpeg is superior to gif for storing full color or gray scale images of realistic scenes that means scanned photographs and similar material jpeg is superior even if you don t have bit display hardware and it is a lot superior if you do see section for details gif does significantly better on images with only a few distinct colors such as cartoons and line drawings in particular large areas of pixels that are all exactly the same color are compressed very efficiently indeed by gif jpeg can t squeeze these files as much as gif does without introducing visible defects this sort of image is best kept in gif form in particular single color borders are quite cheap in gif files but they should be avoided in jpeg files jpeg also has a hard time with very sharp edges a row of pure black pixels adjacent to a row of pure white pixels for example sharp edges tend to come out blurred unless you use a very high quality setting again this sort of thing is not found in scanned photographs but it shows up fairly often in gif files borders overlaid text etc the blurriness is particularly objectionable with text that s only a few pixels high if you have a gif with a lot of small size overlaid text don t jpeg it computer drawn images ray traced scenes for instance usually fall between scanned images and cartoons in terms of complexity the more complex and subtly rendered the image the more likely that jpeg will do well on it the same goes for semi realistic artwork fantasy drawings and such plain black and white two level images should never be converted to jpeg you need at least about gray levels before jpeg is useful for gray scale images it should also be noted that gif is lossless for gray scale images of up to levels while jpeg is not if you have an existing library of gif images you may wonder whether you should convert them to jpeg you will lose a little image quality if you do section which argues that jpeg image quality is superior to gif only applies if both formats start from a full color original if you start from a gif you ve already irretrievably lost a great deal of information jpeg can only make things worse however the disk space savings may justify converting anyway this is a decision you ll have to make for yourself if you do convert a gif library to jpeg see section for hints be prepared to leave some images in gif format since some gifs will not convert well how well does jpeg compress images pretty darn well here are some sample file sizes for an image i have handy a x full color image of a ship in a harbor the first three files are for comparison purposes the rest were created with the free jpeg software described in section b file size in bytes comments ship ppm original file in ppm format no compression bits or bytes per pixel plus a few bytes overhead ship ppm z ppm file passed through unix compress compress doesn t accomplish a lot you ll note other text oriented compressors give similar results ship gif converted to gif with ppmquant fs ppmtogif most of the savings is the result of losing color info gif saves bits pixel not see sec ship jpg cjpeg q highest useful quality setting this is indistinguishable from the bit original at least to my nonprofessional eyeballs ship jpg cjpeg q default setting you have to look mighty darn close to distinguish this from the original even with both on screen at once ship jpg cjpeg q this has slight defects if you know what to look for you could tell it s been jpeged without seeing the original still as good image quality as many recent postings in usenet pictures groups ship jpg cjpeg q jpeg s characteristic blockiness becomes apparent at this setting djpeg blocksmooth helps some still i ve seen plenty of usenet postings that were of poorer image quality than this ship jpg o cjpeg q optimize optimize cuts table overhead blocky but perfectly satisfactory for preview or indexing purposes note that this file is tiny the compression ratio from the original is in this case jpeg can make a file that s a factor of four or five smaller than a gif of comparable quality the q file is every bit as good as the gif better if you have a full color display this seems to be a typical ratio for real world scenes what are good quality settings for jpeg most jpeg compressors let you pick a file size vs image quality tradeoff by selecting a quality setting there seems to be widespread confusion about the meaning of these settings quality does not mean keep of the information as some have claimed the quality scale is purely arbitrary it s not a percentage of anything the name of the game in using jpeg is to pick the lowest quality setting smallest file size that decompresses into an image indistinguishable from the original this setting will vary from one image to another and from one observer to another but here are some rules of thumb the default quality setting q is very often the best choice this setting is about the lowest you can go without expecting to see defects in a typical image try q first if you see defects then go up except for experimental purposes never go above q saying q will produce a file two or three times as large as q but of hardly any better quality if the image was less than perfect quality to begin with you might be able to go down to q without objectionable degradation on the other hand you might need to go to a higher quality setting to avoid further degradation the second case seems to apply much of the time when converting gifs to jpeg the default q is about right for compressing bit images but q to is usually better for converting gifs see section for more info if you want a very small file say for preview or indexing purposes and are prepared to tolerate large defects a q setting in the range of to is about right q or so may be amusing as op art note the quality settings discussed in this article apply to the free jpeg software described in section b and to many programs based on it other jpeg implementations such as image alchemy may use a completely different quality scale some programs don t even provide a numeric scale just high medium low style choices where can i get jpeg software most of the programs described in this section are available by ftp if you don t know how to use ftp see the faq article how to find sources if you don t have direct access to ftp read about ftpmail servers in the same article that article appears regularly in news answers or you can get it by sending e mail to mail server rtfm mit edu with send usenet news answers finding sources in the body the anonymous ftp list faq may also be helpful it s usenet news answers ftp list faq in the news answers archive note this list changes constantly if you have a copy more than a couple months old get the latest jpeg faq from the news answers archive a if you are looking for canned software viewers etc the first part of this list is system specific programs that only run on one kind of system if you don t see what you want for your machine check out the portable jpeg software described at the end of the list note that this list concentrates on free and shareware programs that you can obtain over internet but some commercial programs are listed too x windows xv shareware is an excellent viewer for jpeg gif and many other image formats it can also do format conversion and some simple image manipulations it s available for ftp from export lcs mit edu file contrib xv tar z version is a major upgrade with support for bit displays and many other improvements however it is brand new and still has some bugs lurking if you prefer not to be on the bleeding edge stick with version also available from export note that version is not a good choice if you have a bit display you ll get only bit color nor for converting bit images to jpeg but works fine for converting gif and other bit images to jpeg caution there is a glitch in version be sure to check the save at normal size checkbox when saving a jpeg file or the file will be blurry another good choice for x windows is john cristy s free imagemagick package also available from export lcs mit edu file contrib imagemagick tar z this package handles many image processing and conversion tasks the imagemagick viewer handles bit displays correctly for colormapped displays it does better though slower color quantization than xv or the basic free jpeg software both of the above are large complex packages if you just want a simple image viewer try xloadimage or xli xloadimage supports jpeg in its latest release xloadimage is free and available from export lcs mit edu file contrib xloadimage tar z xli is a variant version of xloadimage said by its fans to be somewhat faster and more robust than the original the current xli is indeed faster and more robust than the current xloadimage at least with respect to jpeg files because it has the ijg v decoder while xloadimage is using a hacked over v the next xloadimage release will fix this xli is also free and available from export lcs mit edu file contrib xli tar z both programs are said to do the right thing with bit displays ms dos this covers plain dos for windows or os programs see the next headings one good choice is eric praetzel s free dvpeg which views jpeg and gif files the current version is available by ftp from sunee uwaterloo ca file pub jpeg viewers dvpeg zip this is a good basic viewer that works on either or machines the user interface is not flashy but it s functional another freeware jpeg gif tga viewer is mohammad rezaei s hiview the current version is available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics hv zip hiview requires a or better cpu and a vcpi compatible memory manager qemm and max work windows and os do not hiview is currently the fastest viewer for images that are no bigger than your screen for larger images it scales the image down to fit on the screen rather than using panning scrolling as most viewers do you may or may not prefer this approach but there s no denying that it slows down loading of large images considerably note installation is a bit tricky read the directions carefully a shareware alternative is colorview for dos this is easier to install than either of the two freeware alternatives its user interface is also much spiffier looking although personally i find it harder to use more keystrokes inconsistent behavior it is faster than dvpeg but a little slower than hiview at least on my hardware for images larger than screen size dvpeg and colorview seem to be about the same speed and both are faster than hiview the current version is available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics dcview zip requires a vesa graphics driver if you don t have one look in vesadrv zip or vesa tsr zip from the same directory many recent pcs have a built in vesa driver so don t try to load a vesa driver unless colorview complains that the driver is missing a second shareware alternative is fullview which has been kicking around the net for a while but i don t know any stable archive location for it the current rather old version is inferior to the above viewers anyway the author tells me that a new version of fullview will be out shortly and it will be submitted to the simtel archives at that time the well known gif viewer compushow cshow supports jpeg in its latest revision a however cshow s jpeg implementation isn t very good it s slow about half the speed of the above viewers and image quality is poor except on hi color displays too bad it d have been nice to see a good jpeg capability in cshow shareware available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos gif cshw a zip due to the remarkable variety of pc graphics hardware any one of these viewers might not work on your particular machine if you can t get any of them to work you ll need to use one of the following conversion programs to convert jpeg to gif then view with your favorite gif viewer if you have hi color hardware don t use gif as the intermediate format try to find a targa capable viewer instead vpic is reputed to do the right thing with hi color displays the independent jpeg group s free jpeg converters are ftpable from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics jpeg zip or jpeg zip if you have a and extended memory these files are dos compilations of the free source code described in section b they will convert jpeg to and from gif targa and ppm formats handmade software offers free jpeg gif conversion tools gif jpg jpg gif these are slow and are limited to conversion to and from gif format in particular you can t get bit color output from a jpeg the major advantage of these tools is that they will read and write hsi s proprietary jpeg format as well as the usenet standard jfif format since hsi format files are rather widespread on bbses this is a useful capability version of these tools is free prior versions were shareware get it from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics gif jpg zip note do not use hsi format for files to be posted on internet since it is not readable on non pc platforms handmade software also has a shareware image conversion and manipulation package image alchemy this will translate jpeg files both jfif and hsi formats to and from many other image formats it can also display images a demo version of image alchemy version is available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics alch zip note about simtel the internet s key archive site for pc related programs is simtel full name wsmr simtel army mil simtel runs a non unix system with weird directory names where this document refers to directory eg msdos graphics at simtel that really means pd msdos graphics if you are not physically on milnet you should expect rather slow ftp transfer rates from simtel there are several internet sites that maintain copies mirrors of the simtel archives most ftp users should go to one of the mirror sites instead a popular usa mirror site is oak oakland edu which keeps simtel files in eg pub msdos graphics if you have no ftp capability you can retrieve files from simtel by e mail see informational postings in comp archives msdos announce to find out how if you are outside the usa consult the same newsgroup to learn where your nearest simtel mirror is microsoft windows there are several windows programs capable of displaying jpeg images windows viewers are generally slower than dos viewers on the same hardware due to windows system overhead note that you can run the dos conversion programs described above inside a windows dos window the newest entry is winecj which is free and extremely fast version is available from ftp rahul net file pub bryanw pc jpeg wecj zip requires windows and or more colors mode this is a no frills viewer with the bad habit of hogging the machine completely while it decodes and the image quality is noticeably worse than other viewers but it s so fast you ll use it anyway at least for previewing jview is freeware fairly fast has good on line help and can write out the decompressed image in windows bmp format but it can t create new jpeg files and it doesn t view gifs jview also lacks some other useful features of the shareware viewers such as brightness adjustment but it s an excellent basic viewer the current version is available from ftp cica indiana edu file pub pc win desktop jview zip mirrors of this archive can be found at some other internet sites including wuarchive wustl edu winjpeg shareware displays jpeg gif targa tiff and bmp image files it can write all of these formats too so it can be used as a converter it has some other nifty features including color balance adjustment and slideshow the current version is available from simtel and mirror sites see note above file msdos windows winjp zip this is a slow compatible version if you register you ll get the only version which is roughly faster colorview is another shareware entry this was an early and promising contender but it has not been updated in some time and at this point it has no real advantages over winjpeg if you want to try it anyway the current version is available from ftp cica indiana edu file pub pc win desktop cview zip i understand that a new version will be appearing once the authors are finished with colorview for dos dvpeg see dos heading also works under windows but only in full screen mode not in a window os the following files are available from hobbes nmsu edu note check pub uploads for more recent versions the hobbes moderator is not very fast about moving uploads into their permanent directories pub os x graphics jpegv zip bit version of free ijg conversion programs version pub os all graphics jpeg zip bit version of same for os x pub os x graphics imgarc zip image archiver image conversion viewing with pm graphical interface strong on conversion functions viewing is a bit weaker shareware pub os x graphics pmjpeg zip pmjpeg os x port of winjpeg a popular viewer for windows see description in windows section shareware pub os x graphics pmview zip pmview jpeg gif bmp targa pcx viewer gif viewing very fast jpeg viewing roughly the same speed as the above two programs has image manipulation slideshow functions shareware macintosh most mac jpeg programs rely on apple s jpeg implementation which is part of the quicktime system extension so you need to have quicktime installed to use quicktime you need a or better cpu and you need to be running system or later if you re running system you must also install the bit quickdraw extension this is built in on system you can get quicktime by ftp from ftp apple com file dts mac quicktime quicktime hqx as of this file contains quicktime which is better than qt in several ways with respect to jpeg it is marginally faster and considerably less prone to crash when fed a corrupt jpeg file however some applications seem to have compatibility problems with qt mac users should keep in mind that quicktime s jpeg format pict jpeg is not the same as the usenet standard jfif jpeg format see section for details if you post images on usenet make sure they are in jfif format most of the programs mentioned below can generate either format the first choice is probably jpegview a free program for viewing images that are in jfif format pict jpeg format or gif format it also can convert between the two jpeg formats the current version is a big improvement over prior versions get it from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac app jpeg view hqx requires system and quicktime on bit displays jpegview usually produces the best color image quality of all the currently available mac jpeg viewers jpegview can view large images in much less memory than other mac viewers in fact it s the only one that can deal with jpeg images much over x pixels on a typical mb mac given a large image jpegview automatically scales it down to fit on the screen rather than presenting scroll bars like most other viewers you can zoom in on any desired portion though some people like this behavior some don t overall jpegview s user interface is very well thought out gifconverter a shareware image viewer converter supports jfif and pict jpeg as well as gif and several other image formats the latest version is get it from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac art gif gif converter hqx requires system or later gifconverter is not better than jpegview as a plain jpeg gif viewer but it has much more extensive image manipulation and format conversion capabilities so you may find it worth its shareware fee if you do a lot of playing around with images also the newest version of gifconverter can load and save jfif images without quicktime so it is your best bet if your machine is too old to run quicktime but it s faster with quicktime note if gifconverter runs out of memory trying to load a large jpeg try converting the file to gif with jpeg convert then viewing the gif version jpeg convert a mac version of the free ijg jpeg conversion utilities is available from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac app jpeg convert hqx this will run on any mac but it only does file conversion not viewing you can use it in conjunction with any gif viewer previous versions of this faq recommended imagery jpeg v a jpeg gif converter based on an old version of the ijg code if you are using this program you definitely should replace it with jpeg convert apple s free program pictpixie can view images in jfif quicktime jpeg and gif format and can convert between these formats you can get pictpixie from ftp apple com file dts mac quicktime qt stuff pictpixie hqx requires quicktime pictpixie was intended as a developer s tool and it s really not the best choice unless you like to fool around with quicktime some of its drawbacks are that it requires lots of memory it produces relatively poor color image quality on anything less than a bit display and it has a relatively unfriendly user interface worse pictpixie is an unsupported program meaning it has some minor bugs that apple does not intend to fix there is an old version of pictpixie called pictcompressor floating around the net if you have this you should trash it as it s even buggier also the quicktime starter kit includes a much cleaned up descendant of pictpixie called picture compressor note that picture compressor is not free and may not be distributed on the net storm technology s picture decompress is a free jpeg viewer converter this rather old program is inferior to the above programs in many ways but it will run without system or quicktime so you may be forced to use it on older systems it does need bit quickdraw so really old machines can t use it you can get it from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac app picture decompress hqx you must set the file type of a downloaded image file to jpeg to allow picture decompress to open it if your machine is too old to run bit quickdraw a mac plus for instance gifconverter is your only choice for single program jpeg viewing if you don t want to pay for gifconverter use jpeg convert and a free gif viewer more and more commercial mac applications are supporting jpeg although not all can deal with the usenet standard jfif format adobe photoshop version or later can read and write jfif format jpeg files use the jpeg plug in from the acquire menu you must set the file type of a downloaded jpeg file to jpeg to allow photoshop to recognize it amiga most programs listed in this section are stored in the aminet archive at amiga physik unizh ch there are many mirror sites of this archive and you should try to use the closest one in the usa a good choice is wuarchive wustl edu look under mirrors amiga physik unizh ch hamlab plus is an excellent jpeg viewer converter as well as being a general image manipulation tool it s cheap shareware and can read several formats besides jpeg the current version is a demo version is available from amiga physik unizh ch and mirror sites file amiga gfx edit hamlab d lha the demo version will crop images larger than x but it is otherwise fully functional rend shareware is an image renderer that can display jpeg ilbm and gif images the program can be used to create animations even capturing frames on the fly from rendering packages like lightwave the current version is available from amiga physik unizh ch and mirror sites file amiga os gfx rend lha note although this directory is supposedly for amigados programs the program will also run under amigados or viewtek is a free jpeg ilbm gif anim viewer the current version is available from amiga physik unizh ch and mirror sites file amiga gfx show viewtek lha if you re willing to spend real money there are several commercial packages that support jpeg two are written by thomas krehbiel the author of rend and viewtek these are cinemorph a standalone image morphing package and imagefx an impressive bit image capture conversion editing painting effects and prepress package that also includes cinemorph both are distributed by great valley products art department professional adpro from asdg inc is the most widely used commercial image manipulation software for amigas imagemaster from black belt systems is another well regarded commercial graphics package with jpeg support the free ijg jpeg software is available compiled for amigas from amiga physik unizh ch and mirror sites in directory amiga gfx conv file amigajpegv lha these programs convert jpeg to from ppm gif targa formats the amiga world is heavily infested with quick and dirty jpeg programs many based on an ancient beta test version of the free ijg jpeg software thanks to a certain magazine that published same on its disk of the month without so much as notifying the authors among these are augjpeg newamyjpeg vjpeg and probably others i have not even heard of in my opinion anything older than ijg version march is not worth the disk space it s stored on if you have such a program trash it and get something newer atari st the free ijg jpeg software is available compiled for atari st tt etc from atari archive umich edu file atari graphics jpeg bin zoo these programs convert jpeg to from ppm gif targa formats for monochrome st monitors try mgif which manages to achieve four level grayscale effect by flickering version reads jpeg files available from atari archive umich edu file atari graphics mgif b zoo i have not heard of any other free or shareware jpeg capable viewers for ataris but surely there must be some by now pointers appreciated acorn archimedes changefsi supplied with risc os version can convert from and view jpeg jfif format provision is also made to convert images to jpeg although this must be done from the cli rather than by double clicking recent versions since of the shareware program translator can handle jpeg along with about other image formats while older versions can be found on some archimedes bboards the current version is only available by registering with the author john kortink nutterbrink wj enschede the netherlands price dutch guilders about or pounds there s also a commercial product called jpeg which provides jpeg read write functionality and direct jpeg viewing as well as a host of other image format conversion and processing options this is more expensive but not necessarily better than the above programs contact dt software freepost cambridge uk tel next imageviewer is a pd utility that displays images and can do some format conversions the current version reads jpeg but does not write it imageviewer is available from the standard next archives at sonata cc purdue edu and cs orst edu somewhere in pub next both are currently being re organized so it s hard to point to specific sub directories note that there is an older version floating around that does not support jpeg portable software for almost any system if none of the above fits your situation you can obtain and compile the free jpeg conversion software described in b you ll also need a viewer program if your display is bits or less any gif viewer will do fine if you have a display with more color capability try to find a viewer that can read targa or ppm bit image files there are numerous commercial jpeg offerings with more popping up every day i recommend that you not spend money on one of these unless you find the available free or shareware software vastly too slow in that case purchase a hardware assisted product ask pointed questions about whether the product complies with the final jpeg standard and about whether it can handle the jfif file format many of the earliest commercial releases are not and never will be compatible with anyone else s files b if you are looking for source code to work with free portable c code for jpeg compression is available from the independent jpeg group which i lead a package containing our source code documentation and some small test files is available from several places the official archive site for this source code is ftp uu net or look under directory graphics jpeg the current release is jpegsrc v tar z this is a compressed tar file don t forget to retrieve in binary mode you can retrieve this file by ftp or uucp if you are on a pc and don t know how to cope with tar z format you may prefer zip format which you can find at simtel and mirror sites see note above file msdos graphics jpegsrc zip this file will also be available on compuserve in the graphsupport forum go pics library as jpsrc zip if you have no ftp access you can retrieve the source from your nearest comp sources misc archive version appeared as issues of volume if you don t know how to retrieve comp sources misc postings see the faq article how to find sources referred to at the top of section the free jpeg code provides conversion between jpeg jfif format and image files in gif pbmplus ppm pgm utah rle and truevision targa file formats the core compression and decompression modules can easily be reused in other programs such as image viewers the package is highly portable we have tested it on many machines ranging from pcs to crays we have released this software for both noncommercial and commercial use companies are welcome to use it as the basis for jpeg related products we do not ask a royalty although we do ask for an acknowledgement in product literature see the readme file in the distribution for details we hope to make this software industrial quality although as with anything that s free we offer no warranty and accept no liability the independent jpeg group is a volunteer organization if you d like to contribute to improving our software you are welcome to join what s all this hoopla about color quantization most people don t have full color bit per pixel display hardware typical display hardware stores or fewer bits per pixel so it can display or fewer distinct colors at a time to display a full color image the computer must map the image into an appropriate set of representative colors this process is called color quantization this is something of a misnomer color selection would be a better term we re stuck with the standard usage though clearly color quantization is a lossy process it turns out that for most images the details of the color quantization algorithm have much more impact on the final image quality than do any errors introduced by jpeg except at the very lowest jpeg quality settings since jpeg is a full color format converting a color jpeg image for display on bit or less hardware requires color quantization this is true for all color jpegs even if you feed a or less color gif into jpeg what comes out of the decompressor is not colors but thousands of colors this happens because jpeg s lossiness affects each pixel a little differently so two pixels that started with identical colors will probably come out with slightly different colors each original color gets smeared into a group of nearby colors therefore quantization is always required to display a color jpeg on a colormapped display regardless of the image source the only way to avoid quantization is to ask for gray scale output incidentally because of this effect it s nearly meaningless to talk about the number of colors used by a jpeg image even if you attempted to count the number of distinct pixel values different jpeg decoders would give you different results because of roundoff error differences i occasionally see posted images described as color jpeg this tells me that the poster a hasn t read this faq and b probably converted the jpeg from a gif jpegs can be classified as color or gray scale just like photographs but number of colors just isn t a useful concept for jpeg on the other hand a gif image by definition has already been quantized to or fewer colors a gif does have a definite number of colors in its palette and the format doesn t allow more than palette entries for purposes of usenet picture distribution gif has the advantage that the sender precomputes the color quantization so recipients don t have to this is also the disadvantage of gif you re stuck with the sender s quantization if the sender quantized to a different number of colors than what you can display you have to re quantize resulting in much poorer image quality than if you had quantized once from a full color image furthermore if the sender didn t use a high quality color quantization algorithm you re out of luck for this reason jpeg offers the promise of significantly better image quality for all users whose machines don t match the sender s display hardware jpeg s full color image can be quantized to precisely match the user s display hardware furthermore you will be able to take advantage of future improvements in quantization algorithms there is a lot of active research in this area or purchase better display hardware to get a better view of jpeg images you already have with a gif you re stuck forevermore with what was sent it s also worth mentioning that many gif viewing programs include rather shoddy quantization routines if you view a color gif on a color ega display for example you are probably getting a much worse image than you need to this is partly an inevitable consequence of doing two color quantizations one to create the gif one to display it but often it s also due to sloppiness jpeg conversion programs will be forced to use high quality quantizers in order to get acceptable results at all and in normal use they will quantize directly to the number of colors to be displayed thus jpeg is likely to provide better results than the average gif program for low color resolution displays as well as high resolution ones finally an ever growing number of people have better than bit display hardware already bit hi color pc displays true bit displays on workstations and macintoshes etc for these people gif is already obsolete as it cannot represent an image to the full capabilities of their display jpeg images can drive these displays much more effectively thus jpeg is an all around better choice than gif for representing images in a machine independent fashion how does jpeg work the buzz words to know are chrominance subsampling discrete cosine transforms coefficient quantization and huffman or arithmetic entropy coding this article s long enough already so i m not going to say more than that here for technical information see the comp compression faq this is available from the news answers archive at rtfm mit edu in files pub usenet news answers compression faq part if you need help in using the news answers archive see the top of this article what about lossless jpeg there s a great deal of confusion on this subject the jpeg committee did define a truly lossless compression algorithm i e one that guarantees the final output is bit for bit identical to the original input however this lossless mode has almost nothing in common with the regular lossy jpeg algorithm and it offers much less compression at present very few implementations of lossless jpeg exist and all of them are commercial saying q to the free jpeg software does not get you a lossless image what it does get rid of is deliberate information loss in the coefficient quantization step there is still a good deal of information loss in the color subsampling step with the v free jpeg code you can also say sample x to turn off subsampling keep in mind that many commercial jpeg implementations cannot cope with the resulting file even with both quantization and subsampling turned off the regular jpeg algorithm is not lossless because it is subject to roundoff errors in various calculations the maximum error is a few counts in any one pixel value it s highly unlikely that this could be perceived by the human eye but it might be a concern if you are doing machine processing of an image at this minimum loss setting regular jpeg produces files that are perhaps half the size of an uncompressed bit per pixel image true lossless jpeg provides roughly the same amount of compression but it guarantees bit for bit accuracy if you have an application requiring lossless storage of images with less than bits per pixel per color component you may want to look into the jbig bilevel image compression standard this performs better than jpeg lossless on such images jpeg lossless is superior to jbig on images with or more bits per pixel furthermore jpeg is public domain at least with a huffman back end while the jbig techniques are heavily covered by patents why all the argument about file formats strictly speaking jpeg refers only to a family of compression algorithms it does not refer to a specific image file format the jpeg committee was prevented from defining a file format by turf wars within the international standards organizations since we can t actually exchange images with anyone else unless we agree on a common file format this leaves us with a problem in the absence of official standards a number of jpeg program writers have just gone off to do their own thing and as a result their programs aren t compatible with anybody else s the closest thing we have to a de facto standard jpeg format is some work that s been coordinated by people at c cube microsystems they have defined two jpeg based file formats jfif jpeg file interchange format a low end format that transports pixels and not much else tiff jpeg aka tiff an extension of the aldus tiff format tiff is a high end format that will let you record just about everything you ever wanted to know about an image and a lot more besides tiff is a lot more complex than jfif and may well prove less transportable because different vendors have historically implemented slightly different and incompatible subsets of tiff it s not likely that adding jpeg to the mix will do anything to improve this situation both of these formats were developed with input from all the major vendors of jpeg related products it s reasonably likely that future commercial products will adhere to one or both standards i believe that usenet should adopt jfif as the replacement for gif in picture postings jfif is simpler than tiff and is available now the tiff spec has only recently been officially adopted and it is still unusably vague on some crucial details even when tiff jpeg is well defined the jfif format is likely to be a widely supported lowest common denominator tiff jpeg files may never be as transportable a particular case that people may be interested in is apple s quicktime software for the macintosh quicktime uses a jfif compatible format wrapped inside the mac specific pict structure conversion between jfif and quicktime jpeg is pretty straightforward and several mac programs are available to do it see mac portion of section a if you have an editor that handles binary files you can strip a quicktime jpeg pict down to jfif by hand see section for details another particular case is handmade software s programs gif jpg jpg gif and image alchemy these programs are capable of reading and writing jfif format by default though they write a proprietary format developed by hsi this format is not readable by any non hsi programs and should not be used for usenet postings use the j switch to get jfif output this applies to old versions of these programs the current releases emit jfif format by default you still should be careful not to post hsi format files unless you want to get flamed by people on non pc platforms how do i recognize which file format i have and what do i do about it if you have an alleged jpeg file that your software won t read it s likely to be hsi format or some other proprietary jpeg based format you can tell what you have by inspecting the first few bytes of the file a jfif standard file will start with the characters hex ff d ff e followed by two variable bytes often hex followed by jfif if you see ff d at the start but not the rest of it you may have a raw jpeg file this is probably decodable as is by jfif software it s worth a try anyway hsi files start with hsi you re out of luck unless you have hsi software portions of the file may look like plain jpeg data but they won t decompress properly with non hsi programs a macintosh pict file if jpeg compressed will have a couple hundred bytes of header followed by a jfif header scan for jfif strip off everything before the ff d and you should be able to read it anything else it s a proprietary format or not jpeg at all if you are lucky the file may consist of a header and a raw jpeg data stream if you can identify the start of the jpeg data stream look for ff d try stripping off everything before that in uuencoded usenet postings the characteristic jfif pattern is begin line m c x whereas uuencoded hsi files will start with begin line m i if you learn to check for the former you can save yourself the trouble of downloading non jfif files what about arithmetic coding the jpeg spec defines two different back end modules for the final output of compressed data either huffman coding or arithmetic coding is allowed the choice has no impact on image quality but arithmetic coding usually produces a smaller compressed file on typical images arithmetic coding produces a file or percent smaller than huffman coding all the file size numbers previously cited are for huffman coding unfortunately the particular variant of arithmetic coding specified by the jpeg standard is subject to patents owned by ibm at t and mitsubishi thus you cannot legally use arithmetic coding unless you obtain licenses from these companies the fair use doctrine allows people to implement and test the algorithm but actually storing any images with it is dubious at best at least in the short run i recommend that people not worry about arithmetic coding the space savings isn t great enough to justify the potential legal hassles in particular arithmetic coding should not be used for any images to be exchanged on usenet there is some small chance that the legal situation may change in the future stay tuned for further details does loss accumulate with repeated compression decompression it would be nice if having compressed an image with jpeg you could decompress it manipulate it crop off a border say and recompress it without any further image degradation beyond what you lost initially unfortunately this is not the case in general recompressing an altered image loses more information though usually not as much as was lost the first time around the next best thing would be that if you decompress an image and recompress it without changing it then there is no further loss i e you get an identical jpeg file even this is not true at least not with the current free jpeg software it s essentially a problem of accumulation of roundoff error if you repeatedly compress and decompress the image will eventually degrade to where you can see visible changes from the first generation output it usually takes many such cycles to get visible change one of the things on our to do list is to see if accumulation of error can be avoided or limited but i am not optimistic about it in any case the most that could possibly be guaranteed would be that compressing the unmodified full color output of djpeg at the original quality setting would introduce no further loss even such simple changes as cropping off a border could cause further roundoff error degradation if you re wondering why it s because the pixel block boundaries move if you cropped off only multiples of pixels you might be safe but that s a mighty limited capability the bottom line is that jpeg is a useful format for archival storage and transmission of images but you don t want to use it as an intermediate format for sequences of image manipulation steps use a lossless format ppm rle tiff etc while working on the image then jpeg it when you are ready to file it away aside from avoiding degradation you will save a lot of compression decompression time this way what are some rules of thumb for converting gif images to jpeg as stated earlier you will lose some amount of image information if you convert an existing gif image to jpeg if you can obtain the original full color data the gif was made from it s far better to make a jpeg from that but if you need to save space and have only the gif to work from here are some suggestions for getting maximum space savings with minimum loss of quality the first rule when converting a gif library is to look at each jpeg to make sure you are happy with it before throwing away the corresponding gif that will give you a chance to re do the conversion with a higher quality setting if necessary some gifs may be better left as gifs as explained in section in particular cartoon type gifs with sixteen or fewer colors don t convert well you may find that a jpeg file of reasonable quality will be larger than the gif so check the sizes too experience to date suggests that large high visual quality gifs are the best candidates for conversion to jpeg they chew up the most storage so offer the most potential savings and they convert to jpeg with least degradation don t waste your time converting any gif much under kbytes also don t expect jpeg files converted from gifs to be as small as those created directly from full color originals to maintain image quality you may have to let the converted files be as much as twice as big as straight through jpeg files would be i e shoot for or rd the size of the gif file not th as suggested in earlier comparisons many people have developed an odd habit of putting a large constant color border around a gif image while useless this was nearly free in terms of storage cost in gif files it is not free in jpeg files and the sharp border boundary can create visible artifacts ghost edges do yourself a favor and crop off any border before jpeging if you are on an x windows system xv s manual and automatic cropping functions are a very painless way to do this cjpeg s default q setting of is appropriate for full color input but for gif inputs q settings of to often seem to be necessary to avoid image degradation if you apply smoothing as suggested below the higher q setting may not be necessary color gifs of photographs or complex artwork are usually dithered to fool your eye into seeing more than the colors that gif can actually store if you enlarge the image you will see that adjacent pixels are often of significantly different colors at normal size the eye averages these pixels together to produce the illusion of an intermediate color value the trouble with dithering is that to jpeg it looks like high spatial frequency color noise and jpeg can t compress noise very well the resulting jpeg file is both larger and of lower image quality than what you would have gotten from jpeging the original full color image if you had it to get around this you want to smooth the gif image before compression smoothing averages together nearby pixels thus approximating the color that you thought you saw anyway and in the process getting rid of the rapid color changes that give jpeg trouble appropriate use of smoothing will often let you avoid using a high q factor thus further reducing the size of the compressed file while still obtaining a better looking output image than you d get without smoothing with the v free jpeg software or products based on it a simple smoothing capability is built in try smooth or so when converting gifs values of to seem to work well for high quality gifs heavy handed dithering may require larger smoothing factors if you can see regular fine scale patterns on the gif image even without enlargement then strong smoothing is definitely called for too large a smoothing factor will blur the output image which you don t want if you are an image processing wizard you can also do smoothing with a separate filtering program such as pnmconvol from the pbmplus package however cjpeg s built in smoother is a lot faster than pnmconvol the upshot of all this is that cjpeg quality smooth is probably a good starting point for converting gifs but if you really care about the image you ll want to check the results and maybe try a few other settings for more information about jpeg in general or the free jpeg software in particular contact the independent jpeg group at jpeg info uunet uu net tom lane organizer independent jpeg group internet tgl cs cmu edu bitnet tgl cs cmu edu carnegie
comp.graphics	re optimizing projections in article sua tinnqs no names nerdc ufl edu lioness ufcc ufl edu writes my three d library does a lot of projections duh but currently it is projecting an object s vertices on a per triangle basis this is grossly inefficient for of the objects displayed which can be optimized by doing projections one time once for each vertex but objects whose z extents intersect the hither plane can t benefit from this because new vertices must be created during z clipping anyone have any better ideas yes here s what you should do keep the vertices in an array and have the polygons triangles are okay but n sided polygons are slightly more efficient store the indices into the array of the vertices that comprise them you set a flag for each vertex when you transform it so you don t have to transform any vertex more than once you also do backface elimination before processing the polygon so that vertices that belong only to bacfacing polys don t have to be transformed at all whenever you transform a vertex check if it s on the far side of the hither plane if it is you can project it right away and store the result then do your z clip any vertices that get produced will have to have their projection done at that stage bernie roehl university of waterloo dept of electrical and computer engineering mail broehl sunee uwaterloo ca voice x work
comp.graphics	parametric drafting hello networld i m looking for documentation books on parametric drafting does anyone know of such material electronic on a gopher ftp site or books authors im not looking for commercial software rather info on implementation and theory of the subject im planning to make a parametric generator for autocad and i would need some referance everything you know is of interest thanks in advace lasse lars erik stenholm student at the university of stockholm sweden
comp.graphics	d shark hi i m looking for a d shark for use in a ray tracing rountine i m doing i ll be using vivid or pov but it can be in any format are there any ftp sites with d objects or does anyone have a good d shark thanks alot chad new in sea world of ohio chad cipiti shark cipiti bobcat ent ohiou edu encounter make contact af cleveland freenet edu
comp.graphics	disp i have posted disp zip to alt binaries pictures utilities i will upload this package to simtel later you may distribute this program freely for non commercial use if no fee is gained there is no warranty the author is not responsible for any damage caused by this program important changes since version added support for iris support mix concat two images added support for batch conversion added support for load save palette table added support for edge enhance added support for crop one line added support for negate image new color quantization option fix some minor bugs introduction this program can let you read write and display images with different formats it also let you do some special effects rotation dithering on image its main purpose is to let you convert image among different formts include simple file management system support slide show support batch conversion there is no limit on image size currently this program supports bits display if you want to use hicolor or truecolor you must have vesa driver if you want to modify video driver please read section hardware requirement pc or better msdos or higher min amount of ram is m bytes maybe less memory will also work i recommend min m bytes for better performance hard disk for swapping virtual memory the following description is borrowed from djgpp supported wares up to m of extended memory expanded under vcpi up to m of disk space used for swapping supervga color mode up to x xms vdisk memory allocation strategies vcpi programs such as qemm desqview and max unsupported dpmi microsoft windows features emulator bit unix ish environment flat memory model svga graphics installation video drivers emu and go exe are borrowed from djgpp if you use western digital vga chips read readme wd this go exe is a modified version for vesa and is completely compatible with original version but some people report that this go exe is not compatible with other djgpp programs in their system if you encounter this problem don t put go exe within search path please read runme bat for how to run this program if you choose xxxxx grn as video driver add nc to environment go for example go driver x xxxxx xxxxx grn nc if you don t have x add emu x xxxxx emu to environment go for example go driver x xxxxx xxxxx grd emu x xxxxx emu notes i only test tr grn et grn and vesa grn other drivers are not tested i have modified et grn to support bits display you don t need to use vesa driver if et grn doesn t work please try vesa grn for those who want to use hicolor or truecolor display please use vesa grn except et users you can find vesa bios driver from wuarchive wustl edu mirrors msdos graphics godzilla cgl rmit oz au kjb mgl command line switch usage display d display initial display type s sort sort method h display type svga default hicolor truecolor sort method name ext function key f change disk drive ctrl a ctrl z change disk drive f change filename mask see match doc f change parameters f some effects on picture eg flip rotate f make directory t tag file tag group files see match doc t tag all files u untag file untag group files see match doc u untag all files ins change display type in read screen menu f m m move file s alt m move single file ignore tag f d d delete file s alt d delete single file ignore tag r r rename file c c copy file s alt c copy single file ignore tag z z display first bytes in ascii hex and dec modes f f display disk free space page up down move one page tab change processing target arrow keys home end page up page down scroll image home left most end right most page up top most page down bottom most in screen effect menu left right arrow change display type bits ctrl arrow keys crop image by one line in graphics mode s s slide show show tagged files escape to terminate b b batch conversion convert tagged files to single format w w wait pause in slide show alt x quit program without prompting alt a reread directory escape abort function and return support format read gif gif japan mag mag japan pic pic sun raster ras jpeg jpg xbm xbm utah rle rle pbm pbm pgm pgm ppm ppm pm pm pcx pcx japan mki mki tiff tif targa tga xpm xpm mac paint mac gem img img iff ilbm lbm window bmp bmp qrt ray tracing qrt mac pict pct vis vis pds pds viking vik vicar vic fits fit usenix face fac iris sgi the extensions in are standard extensions write gif sun raster jpeg xbm pbm pgm ppm pm tiff targa xpm mac paint ascii laser jet iff ilbm window bmp mac pict vis fits face pcx gem img iris all read write support full color bits grey scale b w dither and bits image if allowed for that format detail initialization set default display type to highest display type find allowable screen resolution for grn video driver only when you run this program you will enter read menu whthin this menu you can press any function key if you move or copy files you will enter write menu the write menu is much like read menu but only allow you to change directory the header line in read menu includes d xx f xx t xx d display type f number of files t number of tagged files pressing space in read menu will let you select which format to use for reading current file pressing return in read menu will let you reading current file this program will automatically determine which format this file is the procedure is first check magic number if fail check standard extension still fail report error pressing s or s in read menu will do slide show if delay time is program will wait until you hit a key except escape if any error occurs program will make a beep w or w to pause any key to continue escape to terminate pressing ins in read menu will change display type pressing alt x in read menu will quit program without prompting pressing f will turn on effect menu once image file is successfully read you will enter screen menu you can do special effect on image pressing return show image in graphic mode press return space or escape to return to text mode pressing tab change processing target this program allows you to do special effects on bit or bit image pressing left right arrow change display type bits pressing space save current image to file b w dither save as black white image bit grey scale save as grey image bits full color save as color image bits true color save as bit image this program will ask you some questions if you want to write image to file some questions are format dependent finally this program will prompt you a filename if you want to save file under another directory other than current directory please press space after pressing space you will enter write menu you can change directory to what you want then pressing space this program will prompt you original filename pressing return this program will prompt you selected filename filename under bar this program supports bits display this program is memory greedy if you don t have enough memory the performance is poor if you want to save bits image try gif then tiff lzw then targa then sun raster then bmp then if you want to save bits image lossless try tiff lzw or targa or ilbm or sun raster no one is better for true bits image i recommend jpeg for storing bits images even bits images not all subroutines are fully tested this document is not well written if you have any problem suggestion comment about this program please send to u bicmos ee nctu edu tw i need your suggestion to improve this program there is no anonymous ftp on this site tech information program user interface and some subroutines written by jih shin ho some subroutines are borrowed from xv and pbmplus dec tiff v and jpeg v reading writing are through public domain libraries compiled with djgpp you can get whole djgpp package from simtel or mirror sites for example wuarchive wustl edu mirrors msdos djgpp for thoese who want to modify video driver get grx source code from simtel or mirror sites for hicolor and truecolor bits of colors is set to bits of colors is set to xc bits of colors is set to xc acknowledgment i would like to thank the authors of xv and pbmplus for their permission to let me use their subroutines also i will thank the authors who write tiff and jpeg libraries thank dj without djgpp i can t do any thing on pc jih shin ho u bicmos ee nctu edu tw
comp.graphics	re calculating regular polyhedra vertices i d be interested in a copy of this code if you run across it mail to the author bounced hpldsla comp graphics ricky vnet ibm com rick turner am may i fooled around with this problem a few years ago and implemented a simple method that ran on a pc was very simple about or lines of code somewhere i still have it and could dig it out if there was interest rick dan conway dconway hpsid sid hp com
comp.graphics	re siggraph online experimental publication available rich brandwein writes in article may bert eecs uic edu rsc siggraph org steve cunningham writes computer graphics experimental special online issue may the may experimental special issue of computer graphics is online as a set of files on the siggraph org system in the directory ftp publications may online this is made available to the computer graphics community by acm siggraph the general theme of this issue is electronic documents and the table of contents in the aboutthisissue files will tell you more about this publication and its contents i ftp d here but found nothing has this been removed nope it s still there ftp siggraph org connected to siggraph org siggraph org ftp server version tue apr cdt ready name siggraph org rsc anonymous guest login ok send e mail address as password password welcome to siggraph org a machine maintained for acm siggraph by volunteers as a service to the active computer graphics community ftp cd publications may online cwd command successful ftp ls port command successful opening ascii mode data connection for file list aboutthisissue kappe maurer skip tappan russell gonzalez rosenblum bossomaier green announcements calendar contacts index read me transfer complete bytes received in seconds kbytes s ftp
comp.graphics	cgm garphics viewer wanted i m currently looking for a viewer for computer graphics metafile cgm pictures please inform me about a shareware or freeware version thnx remco jorna kub nl
comp.graphics	re pov ray related group needed hed cats ucsc edu magic fingers writes in article may exucom com cyberman exucom com stephen r phillips writes if it takes making it an alt group then why not i ve been following this thread for what has it been two months now the alt hierarchie is created for purposes for groups which do not fit under the comp or other official hierarchies for the fast creation of hot new newsgroups like alt gulf war because there is no voting process or any other control facilities sites are free to decide not to carry some of the alt groups therefore it is i think desirable to try to create comp graphics raytrace rendering or whatever and not an alt group wouter
comp.graphics	bit planes could anyone please explain what bit planes are we have an sgi here at work that says it has bit planes what does this mean how does this relate to pc graphics what do they usually have please reply via email as most of this group is over my head thanks in advance bob gruen structural dynamics research corp cincinnati ohio
comp.graphics	re help ds in article c zv hq ddtopper dundee ncr com stephenc says in d studio is there any way to create refraction diffraction etc i want to simulate such things as glass lenses bottles etc there might be an ipas routine that does that but i can r be sure another way to do it is to render the scene without the glass object and save the image then assign that image to your glass object as a reflection it will take a lot of adjusting for position and size of the reflection but that s the only thing i can think of
comp.graphics	d input devices greetings all does anyone use some form of d input device i would like to hear any information on any systems that people are currently using please email responses i will summarise if i get some feedback brendan langoulant brendan gu uwa edu au
comp.graphics	cfp th int l symp on computer and information sciences call for papers the eighth international symposium on computer and information sciences iscis viii november antalya turkey organized by ehei ecole des hautes etudes en informatique paris france metu middle east technical university ankara turkey in cooperation with ieee computer society turkey chapter ieee turkey section and the following universities bogazici ege hacettepe istanbul teknik yildiz iscis advisory board e arkun e gelenbe u halici e harmanci k inan y karsligil s kuru n yalabik u yarimagan s yilmaz conference chair program co chairs publicity chair erol gelenbe l gun ibm usa ugur halici metu duke university usa r onvural ibm usa halici vm cc metu edu tr erol egr duke edu p quinton irisa france halici trmetu bitnet program committee v akman turkey e alpaydin turkey e arkun turkey i aybay turkey s bilgen turkey a dogac turkey a dogramaci turkey s fdida france j m fourneau france e gelenbe usa g gonenc turkey u halici turkey e harmanci turkey k inan turkey s jaehnischen germany s kuru turkey m nivat france v paschos france n pekergin france j f perrot france m raynal france a stafylopatis greece g stamon france g ucoluk turkey n yalabik turkey publicity committee isik aybay osman basbugoglu semih bilgen emin germen mert sungur iscis viii is the eighth of a series of meetings which have brought together computer scientists and engineers from about twenty countries this year s conference will be held in the beautiful mediterranean resort city of antalya in a region rich in natural as well as historical sites research papers are sought in the following areas theory of computer science computer architecture systems artificial intelligence neural networks graphics and image processing computational mathematics operations research applications databases performance evaluation software engineering computer networks parallelism paper submission full papers are limited to pages and short communications are limited to pages submit five camera ready copies one original and four copies of the paper and an accompanying letter by postal mail only so as to arrive by june to iscis viii attn drs levent gun and raif onvural ibm e b p o box research triangle park nc usa selected papers from iscis viii will be published in the journal information sciences elsevier north holland poster submission submit five camera ready copies of page extended abstract with an accompanying letter by july to the address given above information for required writing format further information and announcements contact iscis viii ugur halici dept of electrical and electronics eng metu ankara turkey tel ext fax email iscis vm cc metu edu tr or iscis trmetu bitnet
comp.graphics	help d reconstruction hi i m new to imaging and my advisor and i would like to do some d reconstructions we take slides biological and image them on a then the software allows us to trace the outline of the objects we want to save the outlines are stored as a tiff file we would like to convert a group of these outlines into a d image we are unsure as to where to begin someone mentioned that if we could convert the tiff into a vector format then we could view them in autocad any help would be greatly appreciated pankaj oberoi spedhead athena mit edu
comp.graphics	tiff i recently read in a book that the tiff version specification was due to be released in the spring of i am interested in finding out about the new features of the tiff spec and if it is out specifically i need to know if tiff supports vq decompression and or image tiling
comp.graphics	image format conversion tool hello does anyone know of an image format conversion tool that will convert a raw bit grey scale image to gif or tif format it would be great if the tool ran on a pc was a windows application and supported other formats but i ll be happy with anything that works attn code l mp robert lafollette dahlgren division naval surface warfare center dahlgren va autovon fax email rlafoll duchamp nswc navy mil rlafoll
comp.graphics	re what is this gl file from article suntv km watson mtsu edu by csjohn watson mtsu edu john wallace i ve got this animation file with a gl extension what is this are there anu ms dos or os programs which will run this file thanks the gl file is an archive containing individual frames or pieces of frames usually stored as pic or clp files fonts and a txt file that tells the grasp animation system how to display it gl stands for grasp library there is probably a detailed discussion of this subject in the alt binaries pictures faq there are freely distributable viewers for gl files and they are usually named grasprt exe replace the with a version digit or letter most gl files contain frames that are hardware specific to particular modes of the cga ega or vga adapters on pcs i think that there are some copies of grasprt available by anonymous ftp i know that i got one there a long time ago good luck jack jack stephenson main e mail j stephenson isuv interlan com racal datacom alternate e mail stephens souv interlan com p o box ft lauderdale fl usa phone
comp.graphics	re vga graphics library in article mwca uucp bill mwca uucp bill sheppard writes many high end graphics cards come with c source code for doing basic graphics sorts of things change colors draw points lines polygons fills etc does such a library exist for generic vga graphics cards chips hopefully in the public domain this would be for the purpose of compiling under a non dos operating system running on a standard pc i m also interested in info both public domain and commercial graphics library package to do pc vga graphics i m currently working on a realtime application running on a pcc with a non dos kernel that needs to do some simple graphics i m not sure if reentrancy of the graphics library is going to be an issue or not i suspect i ll implement the display controller as a server process that handles graphics requests queued on a mailbox one at a time if this provides sufficiently frequent display updates then i believe that i can restrict all graphics operations to be performed by the server and thus constrain access to the library to a this single process and avoid the need for a reentrant graphics library being fairly new to the realtime systems world i may be overlooking something what do you think cheers bob fitzsimmons fitz cse ogi edu
comp.graphics	lookin form d model of loom hi folks i m doing an animated film on new methodes in loom research you know the thing they make cloth with and need a model of a loom the format should be in ascii faceted geometry and fairly straight forward to figure out any help or pointers would be greatly appreciated thanks rick boykin rick boykin rboykin cscsparc larc nasa gov computer sciences corporation hampton va so maybe i could be a fly and feed arachnid as i die tom marshall
comp.graphics	re d input devices hello i m interested in those devices too could also send me your suggestions thank in advance regards martin vicente e mail vicente cenaath cena dgac fr tph centre d etudes de la navigation aerienne o o div support informatique developpement
comp.graphics	oriented bounding box generation i m looking for code that will generate a minimum volume oriented bounding box for an arbitrary polyhedron anyone know of such code why i m converting objects from one modelling system into another and the destination system is object oriented so i want to represent each object in its own coordinate system that of its bounding box with the objects then translated and rotated appropriately this being the representation used in the destination system john nagle
comp.graphics	ray bezier intersection problem if some kind person has access to a mathematical package such as mathematica maple i would like to ask you for the solution to the following problem i sometimes have algebra problems like this where i would like a simplified symbolic solution is there a ftp able package out there that can handle such beasts i would like to solve the following ray bezier patch intersection for the scalar constant t in p t v q u w origin point in d dir vector d in terms of only p v p and various scalars origin dir d i j i j where t q u w u n b m w n n n n u u u u u u u u u u in my particular case n n n n t w w w w w w w t w w w in my particular case t n m for my particular case b p p p p control points in d space p p p p p p p p p p p p thanx chuck elwood reston ingr com
comp.graphics	anonymous ftp sites for graphics can someone please give me a couple names of anonymous ftp sites that cater to graphics i am looking for info sources images for building a ray tracer thanks robert woolridge robertw clovis pen tek com
comp.graphics	re point in polygon routine needed andrew lewis tepper at andrew cmu edu writes i don t know if this routine is standard i just came up with it recently for a polygon of points p pn and a point p make a table as follows t angle from p to p to p t angle from p to p to p t n angle from pn to p to p express all angles as pi angle pi add all entries in the table if the sum the point is outside if the sum is pi the point is inside if the point is xpi you have a strange polygon if any angle was pi the point is on the border i think it s known but it s neat can it be extended to d john nagle
comp.graphics	re pov ray related group needed hed cats ucsc edu magic fingers writes in article may exucom com cyberman exucom com stephen r phillips writes if it takes making it an alt group then why not i ve been following this thread for what has it been two months now the alt hierarchie is created for purposes for groups which do not fit under the comp or other official hierarchies for the fast creation of hot new newsgroups like alt gulf war because there is no voting process or any other control facilities sites are free to decide not to carry some of the alt groups therefore it is i think desirable to try to create comp graphics raytrace rendering or whatever and not an alt group wouter very good point is there someone out there that is working on this i d offer my time to help manage do it all myself but yaw ll are not going to hear from me over the summer i m not trying to be pushy and there is being progress made re pov mailing list hed advertisement advertisement don t miss this one time only sale sale sale sale h e d tech is now selling thier now model jed series geek bot this is a limited time offer at a reduction from our usual price of dollars buy one now don t wait sale ends sunday advertisement adveritisement
comp.graphics	raw byte grayscale gif i currently have some grayscale image files that are not in any standard format they simply contain the bit pixel values i would like to display these images on a pc the conversion to a gif format would be helpful this conversion can take place either on a pc or on a unix system and i could then download it to the pc can anyone suggest where i can find software to do this alternatively i may have to write my own conversion program in this case could someone tell me where i can find the gif format specification please e mail me directly at shayla shannon jpl nasa gov thanks
comp.graphics	graphics software needed hello we are looking for a graphics package preferably complete with source code that will run on our unix operating system a sequent running dynix this graphics package must support a wide variety of character based graphics devices pc s running a terminal emulator primarily at this point x graphics is not an option this graphics program should if possible support these sorts of graphics operations minimum requirements complicated axes log linear etc with fairly precise axis labels multi line labels etc major and minor tickmarks on axes etc it would be nice if some limited amount of color plotting were available if the output device supported it we have a copy of gnuplot and are currently using it but gnuplot has some limitations we are looking for something more robust than gnuplot at this point i m looking for information about packages that might solve our problems if you have any information please contact me at the above email address if the product you know about is a commercial software package please send a phone number or email address so that i can contact them about pricing etc annette koontz battelle pacific northwest richland wa usa
comp.graphics	re pov ray related group needed on may gmt wlieftin cs vu nl liefting w said liefting hed cats ucsc edu magic fingers writes in article may exucom com cyberman exucom com stephen r phillips writes if it takes making it an alt group then why not i ve been following this thread for what has it been two months now liefting the alt hierarchie is created for purposes for liefting groups which do not fit under the comp or other official liefting hierarchies for the fast creation of hot new newsgroups liefting like alt gulf war liefting because there is no voting process or any other control liefting facilities sites are free to decide not to carry some of liefting the alt groups liefting therefore it is i think desirable to try to create liefting comp graphics raytrace rendering or whatever and not an liefting alt group plus many sites especially many com sites do not carry any alt newsgroups we don t for example a comp group will get a much broader distribution and would be useful to many more people plus the topic is important popular enough to warrant its own group imho kent dalton email kent dalton ftcollinsco ncr com ncr microelectronics phone x danfield ct ms a fax fort collins colorado does someone from peoria have a shorter attention span than me
comp.graphics	adobe type manager what good is it the subject says it all i bought adobe type manager and find it completely useless i ftped some atm fonts and couldn t install them what s the use are you supposed to be able to convert atm fonts to truetype if there s anyone out there who has this program and actually finds it useful enlighten me pete
comp.graphics	re products to handle hdtv moving pircture mb sec kazsato twics co jp writes i d like to know if there is any system cpu hd array framebuffer which can play and record hdtv quality moving picture in realtime hdtv has about mb frame so recording playing moving picture will need about mb sec bandwidth i m thinking to treat the raw data not compressed actually for digital hdtv systems that s far higher bandwidth than you need unless there s some reason you must work in fully uncompressed hdtv also my calculations is that each frame should be well under mb even using bits pixel which is more bits than you actually need or should be enough for a moving picture x x bits is mb i m guessing at hdtv resolution it may be a bit wider than i m fairly sure of the number for most of the digital proposals i hope you have a very fast memory system as well mb s while displaying will require a heavily interleaved vram system unless you have a very compelling reason i d advise trying to use at least somewhat compressed data you don t have to go to full compression to get to a level where the data io requirements are much cheaper and easier to deal with gnu emacs is a lisp operating system disguised as a word processor doug mohney in comp arch randell jesup jack of quite a few trades commodore engineering jesup cbmvax commodore com or rutgers cbmvax jesup bix rjesup disclaimer nothing i say is anything other than my personal opinion
comp.graphics	video memory hello i have posted to this newsgroup once before and recieved a moderately helpful response on a couple of issues this i appreciated very much i would however like to know why it is that ther is simply no information out there on some subjects for the relativly novice graphics programmer the subjects are how do you access the extra video memory on a video board i know somwhere there aresome standard video bios calls that allow you to dothis i have meg of memory on my board and according to all the books and info i have read i am only at maximum using k of it there is a way to do this in standard vga cause i have seen vidoe paging written in assembly which i don t know written into apps hat use mode h to get any speed at all you have to do this how do i do it the vesa standard what gives here i have read most of what the net has to offer on vesa and as far as coding for vesa goes most of the advice is cryptic at best where do i get public domain info that will tell me in mostly plain english how the vesa calls work my biggest gripe is about number i have bought graphics books i have asked graphics professors i have hunted the net through both gopher and archie i ahave asked apps programmers and it is like there is some lock on this information graphics programming books tell alot of programmiing algorithm information but they always fall short of telling you how to really control the video bios what are all the calls folks i know there are people out there that know how to doall tis stuff where are you and why haven t you written a book yet please help thanks in advance stephen palm palm snycanva bitnet please send all personal replies to the above address thanks
comp.graphics	re products to handle hdtv moving pircture mb sec how does the bit color of hdtv work it can not be bit red green and blue like on the macintosh this gives only gray levels apple also has developed a point point network that is around mb not sure if it is bits or bytes per sec povl h pedersen macintosh specialist knows some dos and unix too pope imv aau dk povlphp uts uni c dk finger me at pope imv aau dk for pgp public key
comp.graphics	re where did the hacker ethic go vinci filipe vxcrna cern ch wrote in article may hal com bobp hal com bob pendleton writes from article may pony ingres com by mwmeyer ingres com mike wading through the muck and meyer in article may hal com bobp hal com bob pendleton writes this is getting pretty silly first off hacker is an obsolete term doesn t matter what it used to mean today it means thief it only means thief if you want it to mean that to me it means lots of context wickedly omitted by myself anyway if i say joe is a hacker to most english speaking people who know the word they ll probably think he is either a poor golfer or a bad carpenter but there are very very few people who will think he is a good and clever programmer if you chose to call yourself by a term that means thief don t be surprised when people think you are a thief even if you don t agree with that definition of the word the narrower view that a hacker when associated with the computing environment is a dishonest expert is not so widespread i m my opinion at least with the people involved with the field imho the wider meaning is not obsolete at all no matter how much the lay press would like it to be therefore i conclude that if you call yourself a hacker and somebody perceives you as a thief then this person belongs to a very very small group that has some computer knowledge but not enough to know the wider and original meaning of the word unfortunately the general public has a very narrow view of the deep dark recesses of the art of computing what little they do see is from the view given to them by the media from what i have seen from the media hacker is not a proper way by which to refer to a respected person i on the other hand know what hacker means from those who consider themselves such following is the definition from jargon file this is also known as the hackers dictionary the definitions are arranged in order of decreasing frequency of usage hacker originally someone who makes furniture with an axe n a person who enjoys exploring the details of programmable systems and how to stretch their capabilities as opposed to most users who prefer to learn only the minimum necessary one who programs enthusiastically even obsessively or who enjoys programming rather than just theorizing about programming a person capable of appreciating hack value a person who is good at programming quickly an expert at a particular program or one who frequently does work using it or on it as in a unix hacker definitions through are correlated and people who fit them congregate an expert or enthusiast of any kind one might be an astronomy hacker for example one who enjoys the intellectual challenge of creatively overcoming or circumventing limitations deprecated a malicious meddler who tries to discover sensitive information by poking around hence password hacker network hacker see cracker the term hacker also tends to connote membership in the global community defined by the net see network the and internet address it also implies that the person described is seen to subscribe to some version of the hacker ehic see hacker ethic the it is better to be described as a hacker by others than to describe oneself that way hackers consider themselves something of an elite a meritocracy based on ability though one to which new members are gladly welcome there is thus a certain ego satisfaction to be had in identifying yourself as a hacker but if you claim to be one and are not you ll quickly be labeled bogus see also wannabee hacker ethic the n the belief that information sharing is a powerful positive good and that it is an ethical duty of hackers to share their expertise by writing free software and facilitating access to information and to computing resources wherever possible the belief that system cracking for fun and exploration is ethically ok as long as the cracker commits no theft vandalism or breach of confidentiality both of these normative ethical principles are widely but by no means universally accepted among hackers most hackers subscribe to the hacker ethic in sense and many act on it by writing and giving away free software a few go further and assert that all information should be free and any proprietary control of it is bad this is the philosophy behind the gnu project sense is more controversial some people consider the act of cracking itself to be unethical like breaking and entering but this principle at least moderates the behavior of people who see themselves as benign crackers see also samurai on this view it is one of the highest forms of hackerly courtesy to a break into a system and then b explain to the sysop preferably by email from a superuser account exactly how it was done and how the hole can be plugged acting as an unpaid an unsolicited tiger team the most reliable manifestation of either version of the hacker ethic is that almost all hackers are actively willing to share technical tricks software and where possible computing resources with other hackers huge cooperative networks such as usenet fidonet and internet see internet address can function without central control because of this trait they both rely on and reinforce a sense of community that may be hackerdom s most valuable intangible asset finally a true hacker does not name himself herself one for this is a title that is bestowed by the befuddled sysadmins and users at large to me a sign of a truly great hacker is to be introduced to someone who says nahh i just know a thing or two people always exagerate note that the above definition does not preclude a hacker from describing limself meaning himself herself one but simply says that it is better not to do so there are many who do not know the meaning of hacker so in order to defend the true meaning of the word it is sometimes necessary to borrow on the reputation of a known respected hacker around the workplace this means that hacker is defined in terms of some well known and respected person sometimes there may only be one such person no matter what mr dumpty says language doesn t work that way actually it does you just have to get adequate press coverage language works anyway that we want it to work the purpose of language is to communicate to oversimplify as long as communication is taking place then language is working include stddisclaimer h amiga the computer for the creative mind tm commodore weber state macintosh the computer for the rest of us tm apple university i think therefore i amiga val csulx weber edu ogden ut usa
comp.graphics	iges and e formats i am trying to find out anything i can about available documentation for iges and e arc info formats if you know anything about these formats or just one please send me a note i don t read this group so please send responses to mike prc utexas edu thank you mike kline
comp.graphics	re adobe type manager what good is it menchett dws unr edu peter j menchetti writes the subject says it all i bought adobe type manager and find it completely useless i ftped some atm fonts and couldn t install them what s the use are you supposed to be able to convert atm fonts to truetype if there s anyone out there who has this program and actually finds it useful enlighten me pete there are some tricks to installing atm to windows install them first to dos then run the atm control panel to get them into windows the best reason for atm is that adobe is the standard truetype is a failed ms venture to undercut adobe when adobe was being nasty about keeping their formats proprietary just about any service bureau or print shop will smirk and send you on your way if you bring a truetype document to them for high resolution printing or ripping although there are lots of pretty tt fonts floating around they are really for dot matrix or your own lazer printer however you can convert your tt fonts with fontmonger or some similar program to atm fonts for high end stuff if you are using dot matrix for all your printing you may have wasted your money dave
comp.graphics	how to print out ncar s cgm file i have a lots of cgm files produced by ncar graph utility v they are all color graphs and i want to print them out the printers i own are postscript and hp a anyone who have experiences in this please tell me e mail me will be very nice or if someone knows how to convert those cgm files into gif pcx bmp it will helps a lot
comp.graphics	needed non interactive gif cropper for pc i have a group of gif images that each contain small images in the same place on all the images i need a program to crop out the small images to a new gif file all the programs i can find make me use the mouse or keyboard to define the cropping coordinates is there a program out there for a pc that can take the crop coordinates on the command line reply to max slinky cs nyu edu david max
comp.graphics	dec or pc graphics tools i am applying for an nsf grant to buy equipment for a laboratory the lab will need to support c or pascal with graphics tools we can run the lab either on pc s or dec equipment if you are familiar with appropriate products software hardware and precise prices please contact shai lcc stonehill edu we are interested in any available acadmic discounts also if anyone runs a lab using similar software hardware i would be very interested in hearing your opinions of its success thanks shai simonson stonehill college n easton ma e
comp.graphics	re email address of ithaca hoops ithaca technical support can be reached at tech support ithaca com or by phone at eric wagner pp asel ia ithaca software skylane n wd eric ithaca com oakland flyers
comp.graphics	re d head model not again groan o k sorry to post a question which seems to crop up quite regularly in this group however i have yet to get a specific and usefull in my context answer to where i can get hold of d data for a head what i am looking for simple polyon description of head face which can be easily converted for or used with pov raytracer i e polygons well i am placing a file at my ftp today that contains several polygonal descriptions of a head face skull vase etc the format of the files is a list of vertices normals and triangles there are various resolutions and the name of the data file includes the number of polygons eg phred k vbl contains polygons in order to get the data via ftp do the following ftp taurus cs nps navy mil login as anonymous guest as the password cd pub dabro binary get cyber tar z once you get the data onto your workstation uncompress data tar z tar xvof data tar if you have any questions please let me know george dabro dabro taurus cs nps navy mil george dabrowski cyberware labs dabro taurus cs nps navy mil
comp.graphics	piclab processing half a gif i ve been playing with a program called piclab to modify some gif files the problem is it keeps displaying only of the image starting from the top it displays leaves blank then down another etc anyone know what i m doing wrong or is there another piece of software i should use instead thanks for your tolerance
comp.graphics	re cgm files in article meyer may ibsen geomatic no meyer geomatic no harald martens meyer writes the only book i ve found on the cgm format is cgm and cgi by d b arnold p r bono from springer verlag isbn it s not the best book i ve read though well there is the standards document from the faq how to order standards documents the american national standards institute sells ansi standards and also iso international standards their sales office is at mailing address is broadway ny ny it helps if you have the complete name and number some useful numbers to know cgm computer graphics metafile is iso gks graphical kernel system is ansi x if you want a viewer try downloading ralcgm from unix hensa ac uk misc unix ralcgm ralcgm tar z you might also want to look at gplot from the folks at the pittsburgh supercomputer center fish around at calpe psc edu it is pretty nifty spl steve lamont sciviguy spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource uc san diego la jolla ca a naked lunch is natural to us we eat reality sandwiches but allegories are so much lettuce don t hide the madness allen ginsberg
comp.graphics	help hi there i am here looking for some help my friend is a interior decor designer he is from thailand he is trying to find some graphics software on pc any suggestion on which software to buy where to buy and how much it costs he likes the most sophisticated software the more features it has the better thanks in advance
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse in article apr cti com rlister cti com russell lister writes from rlister cti com russell lister subject re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse date fri apr gmt ecktons ucs byu edu sean eckton writes i have a microsoft serial mouse and am using mouse com was using i think but switched to to see if it was any better vertical motion is nice and smooth but horizontal motion is so bad i sometimes can t click on something because my mouse jumps around i can be moving the mouse to the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for a bit then jump to the right then move smoothly for a bit then jump again maybe this time to the left about inch this is crazy i have never had so much trouble with a mouse before anyone have any solutions does microsoft think they are what everyone should be just venting steam i ve seen this problem several times it was always the result of the little rollers inside the mouse becomming dirty they are good at collecting grime the solution is simple remove the ball to reveal the two rollers carefully clean them and the ball dennis
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re dos window macros in article apr csd newshost stanford edu herrod cs stanford edu stephen herrod writes does anyone know a program that will record keyboard sequences that i do in a windowed dos box i would like to have something that starts a telnet program and then logs me into my accounts windows recorder doesn t seem to be able to record the key sequences thanks steve i think you would need a dos macro program superkey by borland comes to mind i don t think windows is capable of sending keystrokes to a dos window what you want to do sounds like a security problem to me though tom paladin world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	program manager problem does anyone know how to configure a dos app in progman so that only one instance of it can be running at a time i d really appreciate some help on how to do this i would prefer responses through email if it s not a big deal or at least through email as well as posting thank you james e lee jelee hamlet ucdavis edu i swear by my life and my love of it that i will never live for the sake of another man nor ask another man to live for mine john galt atlas shrugged
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re actix video card drivers for windows in apr jarvis csri toronto edu wongda eecg toronto edu daniel y h wong writes i am looking for the latest drivers for the actix graphics accelerator card the driver i am currently using is version and doesn t support more than colors in x mode even you have mb memory the bbs support for actix is unbelievable they are still using bps modem it will take you hours to download the drivers it hurts when you are calling long distance is there any ftp site that has a collection of video drivers for windows btw anyone using this card and how do you like it so far good but where are these drivers daniel y h wong uoft anybody at actix listening upload the dang drivers to an ftp site pleeeeeeese cheers kym kym a burgemeister department of mechanical engineering university of adelaide south australia ph facs e mail to kburg aelmg adelaide edu au
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	postscript at dpi using a windows printer driver i would like to print to a file with output as a postscript file later i would like to take this postscript file to a machine with an attached hewlett packard m laser printer and print the document at dots per inch resolution i would like to use this method to print from wordperfect for windows and from an image processing program that can output images in postscript here s the problem the windows postscript printer driver pscript drv doesn t allow me to specify dpi in fact the setup dialog for this driver does have a pull down menu for resolution but the only choice given in the menu is not a really useful menu any ideas david arnstein arnstein iis sun com international imaging systems milpitas california
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re workspace managers for win locations in article apr bert eecs uic edu you write cah tactix rain com chris huey writes jamie scuglia jamie zikzak apana org au wrote thanks to all those people who recommended workspace managers for windows i found shareware workspace managers from australia s ms windows archive monu cc monash edu au which mirrors some sites in the u s the three i found were workspaces wspace zip review deleted workshift wrksft zip review deleted bigdesk and backmenu backdesk zip review deleted i really appreciate this information however given that i don t have direct internet access which means i don t have archie access i must resort to using ftpmail this means that i need the site name and the directory where these workspace managers are located backdesk zip is on cica but i m not sure of the whole directory another to throw into the running is topdesk it is alsow on cica but i m not sure where it is more complicated then backdesk but i ve found it to be more stable and more usefull i recomend it to people who have already used a virtual desktop oh yeh it s free copyright microsoft and sanford staab carl zmola cicero spc uchicago edu ok here are some usefull applications and locations and other on cica or mirrors in the desktop directory wrksft zip wokshift graphical virtual desktop ver email author about version desk zip desktop tools for windows x backmenu bigdesk later version than backdesk topdesk zip virtual windows for windows finder zip a mac finder clone for windows works well with backmenu also look out for superbar due out soon it allows button bars to be added to almost any application o paul blackman pwb science canberra edu au o water research centre pwb aerg canberra edu au o faculty of applied science o university of canberra australia spend a little love and get high lenny kravitz
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	setting up a slip client under dos and windows long i have been posting monthly how to setup a slip client on a pc posts for a few months lots of work and imminent graduation have come in the way of posting one of these for march or earlier this month for which i apologize this file includes information on writing a script for university of minnesota phone and also a batch file hack that lets you use other packet drivers with phone for additions modifications and corrections i can be reached at ashok biochemistry cwru edu best wishes ashok begin slip txt based on my experiences on setting up slip under dos and windows here are my comments on setting up slip in this environment i thank the trumpet beta testers and the cwru slip beta testers for their comments configuring your modem a turn off dtr at d w i have to disable dtr because the communication program that i use to dial my slip server qmodem drops dtr when i exit the program and therefore hangs up the line if you use a program like kermit or conex to establish the slip connection then this need not be done these programs do not necessarily hangup the line when you exit note if you use univ of minn phone to dial and establish a slip connection you do not need to turn off dtr b dial and establish the slip connection first this can be done automatically if you use a program like phone from the university of minnesota which will dial and establish a slip connection then load the slip packet driver the phone scripting language is simple and phone scripts can be easily written to configure phone to work with other slip server in addition while the only packet driver that phone works with is umslip currently it is easy to write a batch file hack that lets phone work with other packet drivers there is a section on phone in the document with both script and batch file examples configuring the slip drivers there are five slip packet drivers commonly available cslipper exe peter tattam s compressed slip driver slipper exe peter tattam s slip driver slip com crynwr driver i like phil burn s modified driver ethersl com crynwr driver ethernet simulation over slip umslip com univ of minnesota driver based on slip of these four i vastly prefer c slipper exe over slip com or ethersl com for the following reasons a it is much faster even though my modem has just a uart b while using etherslip slip umslip myself and several others have noticed that the pc clock gets messed up after performing a long ftp transfer c it supports pktmux when used in ethernet simulation mode d when used in ethernet simulation mode c slipper seem to work with every tcp ip application that i have tested it with instructions for c slipper exe and you do not use phone a load slipper in your autoexec bat file according to instructions for instance if you have a v bis modem on com slipper com vec baud b if you use dos tcp ip applications in win dos boxes then use the double ended packet driver shim winpkt com this creates a virtual packet driver at x dos applications in native mode dos applications in windows dos boxes and windows applications can all use this virtual driver at x winpkt com x x c if you use qvt net load pktint com next qvt net is configured in qvtnet ini to use the interrupt at x pktint com instructions for slip com a try getting a version slip driver philip burns of northwestern university has a modified slip com driver that is better at hardware handshaking this driver is distributed along with nupop b load the driver after establishing the slip connection my modem is a v bis modem on com so here is how i would load the driver slip w x h slip x f c as discussed above if you use dos tcp ip applications in windows x dos boxes you probably want to use winpkt com winpkt com x x d if you use winqvt net load pktint com pktint com instructions for ethersl com if you choose to use ethersl com instead of slip com the instructions are exactly the same with one crucial difference you will have to delete the line device vcd from the enh section of system ini this will interfere with running regular windows comm applications such as crosstalk and you will get lots of dropped characters etc in these applications this is therefore not recommended etherslip would be loaded as ethersl w x h x f configuring windows a make the following modifications to the system ini file enh section i list all your com ports with their addresses and interrupts com base f com irq com base f com irq com base e com irq this can also be done from within windows control panel but double clicking on the ports icon ii give the port to which your modem is attached a generous com buffer com buffer iii change the com port autoassign value for the com port that you wish to use for your modem to zero this is the amount of time that windows waits in seconds before handing control of that com port to another application if you use winqvt net and then want to switch from one session to another and this value is at the default value of seconds you are will get a gpf and windows will crash com autoassign this can also be done from within windows control panel double click on enhanced and under device contention set the device contention for the com port your modem is on to never warn additional notes what to do if you are assigned a different ip address for each slip session i am fortunate in that our campus slip server assigns each user a permanent ip address so i do not have worry about editing qvtnet ini each time that i establish a slip connection if you are assigned a new ip address on every occasion that you dial in please try to use bootp aware software and let bootp do the configuration for you however qvtnet is not bootp aware and rarp will not work over a slip connection to get qvtnet working in a situation such as this you must do the following edit the qvtnet ini file let the net section look like this net name ip netmask or whatever is appropriate for you arptime packet vector or whatever is appropriate save the changes and then write protect this file attrib r qvtnet ini start your slip connection and remember the name and ip address that you are assigned each time you start qvt net x the general configuration dialog box will open enter the name and ip address and you were assigned for that session click on ok and you should be up and running the changes you make will not be saved as qvtnet ini is write protected a more elegant solution to the problem of dynamic slip ip address assignment is provided by victor menayang victor ccwf cc utexas edu victor uses the program bootpq to semi automate qvtnet preparation bootpq is used to inquire the assigned ip which is then saved to a file called myip another file noip is essentially a complete qvtnet ini file that lacks the ip address in the final step myip and noip are copied into a single qvtnet ini file an example of victor s batch file is provided below slipper com pktint com bootpq i ip s myip bootpq i my ip is s copy q net myip noip e com qvtnet qvtnet ini del q myip echo off echo echo ready to run winqvtnet for questions and more details about bootpq please contact victor menayang victor ccwf cc utexas edu qpc software is attempting to add bootp capability to winqvt net how do you use pktmux over slip pktmux will not work over the slip com packet driver and crashes immediately if used with ethersl com pktmux will work with c slipper exe when c slipper is used in ethernet simulation mode an example of this configuration is shown below the latest release of pktmux is c and it is important that you use this version if you want to use virtual packet drivers with applications like trumpet for windows to be released very shortly from autoexec bat lh c slipper com vec baud ether packet driver lh pktmux pktmux loaded for virtual packet drivers lh pktdrv f first virtual packet driver used for qvt net lh pktint com qvt net pktint com pktdrv pktdrv for use in native dos or wintrumpet additional virtual packet drivers can be loaded directly from within windows dos boxes for example my pif file to load popmail is directed to the file popmail bat this is what popmail bat reads like pktdrv loads a virtual packet driver at x cd popmail popmail cd pktdrv u unloads the packet driver at x exit causes the dos window to close i have similar batch files that load other dos tcp ip applications like pc gopher it is my experience that pktmux works fine even if the virtual packet drivers in two independent virtual dos sessions are loaded at the same software interrupt for example within two different dos boxes one for popmail and the other for gopher the virtual packet driver pktdrv is loaded at x in each instance how much does pktmux degrade the performance of c slipper i have a v bis v bis modem in a running windows with a reasonably fast video card ati graphics ultra under these conditions when i have three virtual packet drivers loaded and being used as follows a driver at x f qvtnet ftp client session b driver at x in one dos window cutcp tn session c driver at x in another dos window trumpet for dos i get ftp transfer rates of kb sec while transferring compressed files this rate is comparable to that which i get with slip loaded as a packet driver and where a single tcp ip session is active if cslipper is used a packet driver and a single session is active i get transfer rates of kb sec on the same files while there is about degradation in the performance of slipper for me the benefits of being able to use pktmux outweigh the performance hit c slipper and ethernet simulation mode in ethernet simulation mode c slipper ver works with all the applications that i have tested it with one or two applications that required ethernet simulation balked at c slipper but even these rare problems have been resolved with ver when slipper is used in ethernet simulation mode and used with pktmux i get some an error message in the qvtnet console window that reads ip incorrect packet type or ip bad version number this does not seem to prevent qvtnet from functioning although i cannot comment on loss of performance what can you do if your dos tcp ip application does not work with c slipper in ethernet simulation mode in the rare event that you find a package that does not work with c slipper in ethernet simulation mode first contact the author peter tattam peter psychnet psychol utas edu au and let him know chances are that he can fix it in the meanwhile you can try the following i do not know if it is kosher but it worked when i had problems with c slipper ver c slipper is loaded at x as described above under the pktmux section i load ethersl com at x run the application and then terminate ethersl com this also works within windows virtual dos boxes however a packet driver like ethersl can be used in only one virtual dos box at a time so for example here is my batch file to run grateful med a medical reference retrieval program developed at the national library of medicine ethersl w x h x f loads etherslip cd gm search cd termin x terminates etherslip exit closes the dos box and returns me to windows if you use this method be cautious about one thing don t have any active pktmux dos sessions open at the same time after closing the ethersl window you can run your pktmux dos sessions with no problem btw the example above grateful med works with no problems with c slipper ver phone script files the documentation that accompany phone provide good instructions on writing script files to get phone to dial slip servers other than the university of minnesota server for example here is a script that i use to dial a cisco server at the university that i attend background to start a slip connection i dial our terminal server and login with a username and password after doing so i start a slip session with the following command slip username slip dialin cwru edu followed by my password again here then is the relevant portion of the phone cmd script file cwru ts slip login script by ashok aiyar last revised procedure host cwru login timeout cwru ts terminal server is not responding message cwru ts slip login script version message waiting for slip server to respond quiet on expect verification message request for user verification received from cwru ts message sending your user name and password quiet off expect username send u expect password private send p reject access denied your user name or password was not accepted timeout slip server did not respond to your validation request expect cwru ts send slip timeout slip server did not respond to slip command expect ip hostname or address send u slip dialin cwru edu timeout slip server did not respond to hostname reject bad ip address incorrect hostname expect password send p reject access denied password not accepted timeout expect header compression will match your system message login to cwru slip server successful wait endprocedure host cwru login procedure host cwru logout nothing special needs to be done to logout endprocedure host cwru logout end of script file how to use packet drivers other than umslip with phone the quick answer there is no clean way below is a batch file hack that i wrote to use phone with other packet drivers in this example the packet driver is peter tattam s cslipper to use a batch file like this you must know the parameters with which you plan to use the packet driver i e interrupt vector baud rate port address and irq this batch file requires umslip com cslipper exe and termin com to be in the same directory or in your path all that the batch file does is to let you dial the slip connection using phone load the appropriate packet driver hangup the connection and unload the driver when you are done being cwruslip bat echo off rem this batch file is an ugly hack of u of minn slip bat rem awaiting a version of c slipper that can directly interact rem with phone rem cwruslip bat file is used with phone exe to start a slip rem connection on cwru ts rem last modified ashok aiyar echo off cls goto start start if goto help if help goto help if setup goto setup if dial goto forced if hangup goto forceh if quit goto forceh if help goto help if setup goto setup if dial goto forced if quit goto forceh goto bogus goto unload forceh termin x umslip nul phone force hangup goto unload slipper termin x rem the following line must be changed to reflect the com port rem irq baud rate and software interrupt lh c packet cslipper com vec baud ether goto end forced termin x umslip nul phone force dial goto slipper setup termin x umslip nul phone setup goto help unload termin x goto end bogus echo is not a valid command echo try cwruslip help for a list of valid commands echo help echo echo case western reserve university slip setup echo using univ of minnesota phone echo echo cwruslip setup modem settings phone number username etc echo echo cwruslip dial dial and establish the slip connection echo cwruslip quit hangup the phone and unload the driver echo cwruslip help this screen echo end end cwruslip bat where to get what peter tattam s programs are archived at ftp utas edu au c slipper and the trumpet set of programs winqvt net is generally archived at most windows ftp sites including ftp cica indiana edu ncsa telnet is archived at ftp ncsa uiuc edu nupop is archived at ftp acns nwu edu popmail pc slipdisk phone and pc gopher are archived at boombox micro umn edu end slip txt ashok aiyar mail ashok biochemistry cwru edu department of biochemistry tel cwru school of medicine cleveland ohio fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re please refresh on internet access to compuserve in article syshtg gsusgi gsu edu syshtg gsusgi gsu edu tom gillman writes cheong solomon technet sg scstech admin writes sometime ago there are some discussions on gaining compuserve access thru the internet but i seem to misplace those articles can someone please refresh me where which site i can telnet to to gain access to send a message to a compuserve user via internet e mail enter the mail mode and address your receiver as follows compuserve com the number is the receiver s compuserve i d number if the users number contains a comma or anything other than a period change it to a period
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	msdos prompt problem i am having a really bothersome problem using the msdos prompt in windows to open a dos box when i am done with the dos box i cant get back to windows if i do alt enter to shrink the box or use exit to close it the screen goes black and i have to control alt delete until i kill windows i get a couple of screens about app not responding i think things are still alive under the black screen because if i alt tab to cycle through the running apps i get flashes of text but then the black returns this persists even if the machine is powered on and off i am working with an app developed using borland s application frameworks and c it seems to work fine hardware is a with meg ram not on a network video is a tseng vga dos i reinstalled windows a couple of time but the problem comes back i am using temporary swapping for virtual memory i would really really appreciate any hints anyone might offer thanks jim cant
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re what does the bmp format mean in article robertsa unix tcd ie robertsa unix tcd ie andrew l roberts writes what exactly does the windows bitmap format look like i mean how is the data stored width height no of colours bitmap data i couldn t find anything in ths user manual is there any other reference material which would give me this information thanks andrew well this is only a guess if it goes by the true meaning of bit map then it holds x y c where x pixel number in th ex direction y pixel number in the y dir c colour pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make a ms windows grp file reflect a hd directory well i ain t always right but i ve never been wrong gd
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	newsgroup archive is this newsgroup archived anywhere beyond the normal expiration dates say for the last months or more thanks tom paladin world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re trouble with sound blaster pro drivers in article kaz vincent iastate edu kaz iastate edu errington shroud writes recently windows has starting giving me the error sound blaster pro requires newer version of windows it has worked correctly for a long time and don t know what the problem could be thanks i had this problem when i initially installed my sound blaster pro and here s what the tech support told me they told me to look for the files that are stated in the readme file from the win subdirectory of the soudblaster directory now look in the system ini file and if any of them say device xxxxxxx than change it to device xxxxxxx thats should work was your system ini file erased for some reason that would be the only reason that i would think that windoes is giving you the error now tony annese claebaur shell portal com or claebaur cup portal com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hiragana katakana tt fonts newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject hiragana katakana tt fonts keywords hiragana katakana truetype japanese where can i obtain truetype hiragana and katakana japanese phonetic character fonts note i can receive mail at the address in the header but i cannot send kw
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	standard and enhanced question why is win sometimes so finicky i have a new dell dx mhz megs ram windows was working just great i had a bus mouse and mother board problem dell replaced the mouse gave me a newer mouse driver for windows and replaced the motherboard just prior to this problem windows would only load up every other time i would get the logo and either it would go on into windows or lock up this was very consistent every other time now with the new motherboard and all it still does the same thing the computer is less than one month old at first it worked fine i can get into windows each time now with the win s command this forces standard mode things seem to run slower i mainly use windows apps but in standard mode there is no virtual mem plus it is slower i re loaded windows it still does the same thing should i first delete everything in all windows dir s i did not because i have so much added in sub dir s etc really puzzling why enhanced mode would not load each time but consistently every other time standard mode each time any thoughts or comments c ya artin this communication is sent by artin university of arizona tucson ak cleveland freenet edu mlinsenb ccit arizona edu mlinsenb arizvms death has been dead for about years follow the king of kings
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	replacement for program manager and file manager hi there could someone please suggest one of the better shareware replacements for win s program manager and file manager and which ftp site are they located at thanks in advance for e mail response yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re video cards with bnc connectors sam ms uky edu mike mills writes hello i just recently bought a nec fg in order to get the highest possible quality and refresh rates i d like to know if there are any accelerator cards with bnc connectors as opposed to the usual d sub connector i do not know of any vga type cards that have bnc outputs but extron sells a vga to bnc cable set that works good with my fg if you are trying to optimize the display with a good video card try contacting get nine i use and like the level card thanks for any information mike mills e mail sam ms uky edu rutgers uunet ukma sam uk math sciences dept mike ukpr uky edu work home mark marlow marlow world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	true type font problem repost please help word c doesn t show the period centred character to indicate spaces if i use the ttfonts from coreldraw our editors need to be able to see how many spaces are in text but the character displayed is a large hollow box they overlap each other and characters on each side which is useless i believe the character used by w w is the period centred this character shows up with the windows charmap display as the hollow box which tends to confirm this i have edited the corel font with fontmonger and changing the font graphics for the character makes no difference to the font output in charmap or w w altering the paragraph or cedilla does alter their font graphics displayed however is the w w character used to indicate spaces the period centred character has anyone been able to get this character displayed from a coreldraw ttf russ sharp russ deakin edu au ph fax deakin university school of engineering technology geelong australia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows zip unzip we are using pkzip v and i am interested to hear from people who have used one of the many windows programs that call these which ones are available and does any one stand out amongst the rest is there a full windows version that does not call the dos pkzip pkunzip commands russ sharp russ deakin edu au ph fax deakin university school of engineering technology geelong australia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	boot up sometimes fails sometimes when i boot up windows after the windows logo comes up it han gs i am using dos and doublespace and a meg temp swap file on an uncompressed drive but when i press the reset button on the computer windows boots up fine why is this is it dos matthew gillard blessed are they who run around computer systems engineering in circles for they shall be la trobe university known as wheels
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re what does the bmp format mean andrew l roberts robertsa unix tcd ie wrote what exactly does the windows bitmap format look like i mean how is the data stored width height no of colours bitmap data i couldn t find anything in ths user manual is there any other reference material which would give me this information thanks andrew try the windows multimedia development kit it has most of the file formats defined
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re stealth video drivers in article doug sun sws uiuc edu doug sun sws uiuc edu doug ward writes i recently purchased a diamond stealth video card and received the wrong drivers does anyone know where i can ftp the windows video drivers for the stealth i tried the drivers at cica and they don t work the right drivers are on the diamond bbs but the file is almost meg and it would take a while to download them at baud any information would be appreciated please contact me at doug sun sws uiuc edu thank you doug ward i have the same problem with a diamond stealth vram card daniel
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	driver wanted hello i m looking for a driver for an ibm color ink jet printer any pointers are welcome thanks in advance ralf huebner informatik uni stuttgart de
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re what does the bmp format mean michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu wrote in article robertsa unix tcd ie robertsa unix tcd ie andrew l roberts writes what exactly does the windows bitmap format look like i mean how is the data stored width height no of colours bitmap data i couldn t find anything in ths user manual is there any other reference material which would give me this information well this is only a guess if it goes by the true meaning of bit map then it holds x y c where x pixel number in th ex direction y pixel number in the y dir c colour come on fellows the format is quite plainly explained in the manuals it s in the programmer s reference volume messages structures and macros msc dev kit for should be also in the borland s manuals pages depending what you need first there is the bitmapfileheader struct then the bitmapinfo which contains the bitmapinfoheader and the rgbquad and then the bitmap data and there is also a example among the example files ms sdk hope this helps yes i do have some prior knowledge in this there is nothing dangerous in these dragons they are totally harmless but my opinion is that kicking them might not be the right way to test it so shut up and run pjsinc sunrise oulu fi pjsinc phoenix oulu fi pjsinc tolsun oulu fi if it s possible that there are some opinions above they must be all mine
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	summary canon bj vs hp deskjet hello again about a week and one half ago i posted a query looking for people feelings on the inkjet family of printers specifically a comparison between the canon bj bubblejet and the hewlett packard deskjet many people asked me to post the summary account of all the postings and e mail i received below is my original query and the responses i received i have not deleted any part of the responses only the headers and signatures so you can extract what you find necessary some people asked me for an unbiased account however the very nature of the question suggests favoritism and biased comments you must extract the information you believe unbiased and a fair representation of each printer there are a wide range of comments each has its own value there was no clear winner some like the bj especially its price performance ratio others preferred the durability and reliability of the deskjet the original inkjet with proven drivers and a solid background two new inkjet printers have drawn some attention a new printer to be introduced by hewlett packard later this year around summertime and an addition to the epson product line their first inkjet you will find that after the initial purchase the costs of re filling or replacing the ink cartridges are about the same this largely depends on where you purchase the re fills or replacements so shop around first since this aspect will most likely dominate the cost of your printer no one mentioned approx how many sheets each ink cartridge will print but i suspect they are roughly equal at about sheets laser printers will do sheets per toner cartridge well that s a brief research summary of my personal research enjoy hello fellow netters i am asking for your collected wisdom to help me decide which printer i should purchase the canon bj bubblejet vs the hp deskjet i thought rather than trust the salesperson i would benefit more from relying on those who use these printers daily and use them to their fullest potential and i figure all of you will know their benefits and pitfalls better than any salesperson now i would greatly appreciate any information you could render on the dpi of the canon bubblejet vs the hewlett packard deskjet dpi which is faster is there a noticeable print quality difference particularly in graphics which will handle large documents better pages or more any personal experience on either will be appreciated here which works better under windows any driver problems etc cost of memory font packages toner cartridges etc basically your personal experiences with either of these machines is highly desirable both good and bad well i bought the bj about a month ago at the start of their rebate program on that printer it ends and i bought it from computer discount warehouse because their price of couldn t be beat anywhere i looked and i think it s a hot printer just using regular copier paper produced fantastic results just in high quality mode i compared the output of a micrografx designer legal size drawing with pt type done on my bj with the same drawing printed on an hp laserjet iid and i was amazed how well i could read the small print on the bj printing speed was several seconds faster on the bj which is amazing considering that the hp has m ram installed i measured the time from when the printer first indicated it was receiving data as i used print manager in windows i showed the output to several people at work and one manager bought one immediately for his office and two other engineers placed their orders too if you need cdw s phone number it s delivery to ny was two days good luck craig witkowski ceng maccvm corp mot com motorola communications electronics inc glen rock nj i own a deskjet performance isn t spectacular under windows using truetype fonts but neither is the canon from what i have seen quality for the hp is very much dependent on paper quality on standard photo copy paper the characters have slightly frayed edges but on better quality distinction type paper things look better for most applications i find copy paper fine still better than dot matrix comes with a windows driver which seems to by pass print manager has a few intelli fonts which are hp scaleable fonts probably faster than truetype but haven t really tried them out can get ram font cartridges but unless the speed of truetype is a problem i wouldn t bother the ram cartridges can t be used as buffer soft fonts only for graphics i e bmp images etc the hp can be put into a dither mode via the hp supplied win driver there a number of dither options such as scatter pattern etc the manual gives recommendations depending on the type of image being printed text is not so good in this mode problem arises when you have a document which contains both graphic and text the range of tones for graphic images isn t brilliant but i think that is more of a limitation with inkjet printers in general from what i have seen the canon is similar in most respects however a printer definitely worth looking at is the new inkjet from epson this printer is faster cheaper and capable of producing laser like quality on normal copier paper can t remember the model lx something i think i purchased my hp days before the epson was released here the introductory price on the epson was the same as the hp here in new zealand about a month ago i got a canon bj i absolutely love it it is incredibly fast except for printing from pspice i don t know if you ever do stuff with that or not most of the stuff i print is either from microsoft word for windows or just plain text the only problems i ve had are printing headers footers the printer freaked out and printing on cheap paper lots of streaks normal copy paper works great with it you can only tell it s not laser printed by holding it oh less than twelve inches from your face that is if you re nearsighted like me the printer comes with its own driver for windows i have no other complaints the printer also can act just like some epson or another for those archaic software packages that haven t written a driver for it yet the teeny weeny footprint is a real plus too and if you purchase it between now and may you get a rebate from canon i bought mine from a store called compusa and the price now is i have a friend who has the hp you are looking at it also prints very well and everyone has drivers for it but it is very slow hope i helped dpi sure looks great heather stehman in article apr schbbs mot com ceng maccvm corp mot com craig witkowski writes in message apr csd newshost stanford edu kayman csd d stanford edu robert kayman writes hello fellow netters i am asking for your collected wisdom to help me decide which printer i should purchase the canon bj bubblejet vs the hp deskjet i thought rather than trust the salesperson i would benefit more from relying on those who use these printers daily and use them to their fullest potential and i figure all of you will know their benefits and pitfalls better than any salesperson various questions deleted well i bought the bj about a month ago at the start of their rebate program on that printer it ends and i bought it from computer discount warehouse because their price of couldn t be beat anywhere i looked and i think it s a hot printer just using regular copier paper produced fantastic results just in high quality mode i compared the output of a micrografx designer legal size drawing with pt type done on my bj with the same drawing printed on an hp laserjet iid and i was amazed how well i could read the small print on the bj printing speed was several seconds faster on the bj which is amazing considering that the hp has m ram installed i measured the time from when the printer first indicated it was receiving data as i used print manager in windows i guess i have some experience with both i have a bj at work and a deskjet at home i prefer the deskjet the printing speed and quality are similar i tested both with text and graphics before buying the deskjet for home the feature that sets the deskjet apart is the driver support in so many applications the bj ends up emulating the epson lq or ibm proprinter to get it to work with many non windows apps and this will be the case for a long time the design is superior if you just want to use cut paper the deskjet is quieter and the ink cartridges are quite a bit cheaper due to the number of deskjets out there in comparision to the bjs just my worth mike mattix agricultural group of monsanto p o box luling la internet address dmmatt bigez monsanto com yes there is the landscape mode printing problem but it does not present a problem in windows as the windows printer driver handles the translation i actually thought of some other points after i posted the note the deskjet has an unprintable area of approximately inch around the paper the bubblejet does not you are right about the graphics resolutions i tested the printers with the applications i had access to wordperfect harvard graphics wingif paintshop pro and paintbrush and could not tell a difference in fact one of the hp deskjet windows drivers gives you significant control over the contrast and density of the printer hence controlling the amount of ink you put down the bubblejet did not i had no imaging software to test the printers with and so had no comparision there finally i wanted sheet feeding in that configuration the bubblejet cost approximately more than the deskjet i went through a pretty thorough evaluation and chose the deskjet when i spent my own money btw i am replacing the bj with a deskjet at work this month anyway regards mike mattix ag group of monsanto luling la i spent some time comparing the two we ended up getting the bubblejet bj versus the hp our reasons were the hp seemed to have worse banding than the canon dpi versus we felt we could see the difference price canon has a rebate program going on at the moment the bj was our choice over the bj ex we could have pages in the bj feeder the bj ex holds only pages i think as you can see up to pages on the bj we haven t done anything big with the bj but its performance seems reasonable under windows i know that the microsoft bbs has a newer windows driver than comes with the printer but i don t know how it compares also the driver included with the printer is canon s whereas i don t know where the microsoft bbs one comes from microsoft hope this helps thomas v frauenhofer wa yyw tvf cci com uunet uupsi cci tvf tvf cs rit edu mandlebratwurst the meal that eats itself altough i m sometimes also a salesperson if i m not suppost to study i would recommend to buy the bj the printing quality is a bit better but you you ve got much more possiblities don t forget the hp engine is at least years on the marked the canon engine witch is also used in other new bubblejet printers like e g the epson ones is quite recently available now i would greatly appreciate any information you could render on the dpi of the canon bubblejet vs the hewlett packard deskjet dpi which is faster is there a noticeable print quality difference particularly in graphics which will handle large documents better i ve seen during a short demonstration from someone who tryed to sell me canon printers times the same picture one printed with the bj one with the canon the other with the hp and there was a difference in printing quality the canon was a bit better greetz kris when we decided we needed quiet printers in our hospital we looked to inkjet printers they have near laser quality speed and they are quiet we use both hp deskjets and the canon bj s i prefer the paper handling qualities of the deskjets but i feel the canons have superior print quality the ideal would be a canon with a sheet feeder however i did end up buying a deskjet for home use got too good a deal anyway we are using canons in high volume areas and they are holding up very well out of deskjets and bj s i have only had one problem with a deskjet and that was taken care of very quickly by hp nate whenever i buy anything i look at what the experts say pick out the top few and then buy on whatever criteria are the most apt i ve been unusually flush lately no begging letter please and so i ve done this a few times including about four months ago with inkjet printers i can t remember much about the process except that i read about three reviews of inkjets and that the was always at or near the top i bought the c because of the added dimension of colour i intend to build a multi media machine at some stage and have just bought a colour scanner towards that although i haven s used the colour thing in earnest yet i tried it out on a couple of windows bitmaps and i was pleased with the result i note that even though you can now get the c the one with both colour and mono with no need to change the cartridge the c and are still readily available at least in the uk the following are my views experience i don t know anything about the canon except that i came away from reviews and replies to a posting similar to yours with the idea that the hp offered the best performance price ratio i believe hp are the originals in the field not always the ideal place to be but the market s still young so one assumes they have the expertise the c is worth the extra operation in mono is perfectly acceptable and i get good crisp reproduction of fonts from windows i used to work for monotype when they still manufactured typesetters before their american owners closed them down and i can tell you that in terms of definition dpi is pretty poor anyway so dpi is just a bit less poor the hp comes with a reasonable set of drivers if you buy it invest in the additional ram pack it s pretty slow with it god knows what it s like without i actually work in germany and my pc is home in the uk so it s not in daily use i would say that apart from my not reading the manual properly and having a really dumb problem at the start it s easy peasy to operate hope this is of use regards david just bought the bj i thought the price couldn t be beat with rebate thru and so far it is comparable even superior to the deskjet in print quality speed per page rate seems to be faster i don t have figures i don t print long docs though quality i think the graphics quality is excellent print quality is excellent as well unless you use small fonts and hold it up close you can see a lot more jaggies than on a laserjet the dpi is offset by a little less accuracy in holding the page print head in place i would imagine large docs not room in the standard model for a whole lotta pages manual says up to though haven t tried it drivers no problems under win yet winword doesn t want to print the envelopes the same way the canon does though know nothing of add on costs daniel a hartung dhartung chinet chinet com ask me about rotaract the deskjet is slow this is in comparison to the other printers i mentioned i have no idea how the bubblejet compares the interface between win and the printer is just dandy i ve not had any problems with it i just bought a bj printer a couple of days ago i compared it to the sample print of an hp deskjet and knew that the hp wasn t for me the bj is pretty fast and really prints with good quality i can compare it with the hp laserjet iiid postscript and they look almost identical depending on the kind of paper i don t have problems with the ink not being dry it seems to dry very fast probably within a second since canon is giving a rebate until the end of may it is really a good buy sean eckton computer support representative college of fine arts and communications wow it s funny you should ask this i m a little behind in news reading so i know this may be late i just purchased the canon bubblejet last night i was really worried that i wouldn t like it but the print quality and noise level is fantastic i printed quite a few documents with lots of graphics and it printed damn near laser quality you can t tell it s not laser unless you get inches from the page no problems with drivers the printer came with the driver diskette which is good because i was beginning to panic when i couldn t findi it under windows or wordperfect it works well under both i have yet to install word for windows so don t know how it works with them i had a deskjet at work last year it was a good printer as well ut i felt it was awfully slow and much noisier than the bubblejet i won t say the bubblejet is much better but i really do like it more just my worth brett sincerely robert kayman kayman cs stanford edu or cpa cs stanford edu in theory theory and practice are the same in practice they are not you mean you want the revised revision of the original revised revision revised
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	question on eisa video board performance i have an eisa machine and i just do not understand why most eisa video cards only match the performance of their isa counterparts for instance the eisa orchid pro designer iis e is only about as fast as the isa diamond speedstar plus which isn t what i would call fast i don t understand why eisa video cards aren t as a group on the same level of performance as local bus cards given that eisa video cards have a bit bus to move data around instead of isa s bits since they are not why would anyone me included pay a higher cost for a eisa video card when its performance is no better than and often worse that a much cheaper isa video board such as a diamond speedstar x from pc magazine s i think recent report i know that ati makes a pretty fast eisa video card but it s around which is just about double what my wallet will allow me to spend and for i could get a diamond viper and still have left over of course i d have to get a local bus mother board too can anyone shed some light on my confusion frustration thanks christopher wroten cfw world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re need longer filenames in article rfdkqinn s zephyr grace cri nz maystonr grace cri nz richard mayston writes path kth se sunic pipex uunet noc near net howland reston ans net wupost waikato ac nz comp vuw ac nz zephyr grace cri nz zephyr grace cri nz usenet newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re need longer filenames message id rfdkqinn s zephyr grace cri nz from maystonr grace cri nz richard mayston date mon apr gmt sender maystonr grace cri nz references apr guinness idbsu edu d t infoserv com distribution world organization industrial research ltd new zealand nntp posting host rmayston grace cri nz lines in article d t infoserv com hfeldman infoserv com howard mitchell feldman writes in apr guinness idbsu edu lhighley gozer idbsu edu larry paul highley wrote is there a utility out there that will let me use filenames longer than the standard format yep it s called os yep you can use any type of unix or maybe vms or buy a mac or something if you want longer filenames for your documents i heard of a wordprocessor for windows which let you assign long names to files those long filenames could only be seen from that programs open save dialogs though maybe someone knows more about this wordprocessor than i do
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re standard and enhanced question ak cleveland freenet edu martin linsenbigler writes why is win sometimes so finicky i have a new dell dx mhz megs ram windows was working just great i had a bus mouse and mother board problem dell replaced the mouse gave me a newer mouse driver for windows and replaced the motherboard just prior to this problem windows would only load up every other time i would get the logo and either it would go on into windows or lock up this was very consistent every other time much deleted any thoughts or comments sounds like a memory conflict problem which can cause truly weird symptoms like these call dell tech support or better post to them on cserve if you have an account and get the memory range s used by video ram on your machine the block windows from using those ranges with an emmexclude statement in the enh section of system ini you probably should include a statement excluding the same range from emm or whatever memory manager you use in config sys dell installs windows on the machines they ship but the installation doesn t consist of much more than copying the files to a hard disk you still have to do the work and the fact that you have the problem in enhanced mode but not standard strongly suggests a high memory conflict
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re program manager two questions from article kou raijbh h axion uucp by wefiii axion uucp warren e fridy iii in apr vpnet chi il us lisbon vpnet chi il us gerry swetsky writes can you set up a short cut key to return to the program manager i know ctl esc esc will do it but i d rather set it up so i can avoid the task list and get back to the p m with alt f you might try the recorder and make a micro now isn t that just amazing seriously add program manager to your startup group and define a shortcut for it works zi
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	screenreading programs for ms windows hi i use a pc with a screen access program ibm screen reader and a speech synthesizer accent sa i would like to find out about screen access programs for the windows platform i heard that were a couple of them out now under beta testing i would like to find out addresses prices etc thanks raman t v raman raman cs cornell edu tel r office upson hall department of computer science cornell university ithaca ny res bryant avenue ithaca ny
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	looking for text search engine s i m looking for any information regarding text search engines specifically i d prefer source or binaries which will run in a ms windows and or unix environment scanning either flat files or common db structures references to pd shareware or commercial implementations welcome please reply via email i ll summarize if desired thanx doc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help word w sucks autonum i am getting desperate i have a report that must be finished by midnight and w w doesn t seem to have what appears to be a must i use the autonum field for numbering chapters but my document is distributed amongst several files i just can t find a way to make word start the numbering at something else than or of course everything is fine in the first file but it s pretty stupid when all chapters are numbered as please if you have any solution to this except from putting it all in one m document e mail me immediately as i am working on th report i hardly have any time to read news so please e mail me all answers will be heartly welcome in advance thanx a lot frode rinnans v trondheim tlf bjaastad idt unit no and on the th day god created rock and roll avard jastad
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows zip unzip i from ccastco prism gatech edu costas malamas subject re windows zip unzip date apr gmt in article rl b h c sol deakin oz au russ deakin oz au russ sharp writes we are using pkzip v and i am interested to hear from people who have used one of the many windows programs that call these is there a full windows version that does not call the dos pkzip pkunzip commands russ sharp russ deakin edu au ph fax there is wunarchive the replacement of wunzip it only extracts but it ssupports pkzip it does not require pkz unzip in order to work and ccosts only to register
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re how redirect print manager to file hpcc comp os ms windows misc u cc nctu edu tw by swh am apr hello who can tell me where can i find the pd or shareware which can capture windows s output of printer mananger i want to capture the output of hp laser jet iii though the postscript can setup to print to file but hp can t i try dos s redirect program but they can t work in windows thankx for any help you can print to a file from an hp or any other printer just go into the printers section of your control panel select the printer you want to re direct to a file and click on connect then choose file as the port to connect the printer to when you print from any application to that printer windows will prompt you for a file name for the file into which you want to capture the printout it s pretty easy good luck perry reed perry reed hp desk hp com be young be foolish be lucky in love
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	auto check boxes i have a question about the autocheck boxes in windows is it a possibility to let the boxes have several different colors at the same time frode kvam c name frode kvam univ university of trondheim dept of informatics e mail frode ifi unit no snail mail lademoens kirkealle trondheim voice beware of programmers who carry screwdrivers
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re boot up sometimes fails in article apr lugb latrobe edu au cs lux latrobe edu au matthew i gillard writes subject boot up sometimes fails from cs lux latrobe edu au matthew i gillard date wed apr gmt sometimes when i boot up windows after the windows logo comes up it han gs i am using dos and doublespace and a meg temp swap file on an uncompressed drive but when i press the reset button on the computer windows boots up fine why is this is it dos matthew gillard blessed are they who run around computer systems engineering in circles for they shall be la trobe university known as wheels dos never used the area e efff as well as some others if you have any cards that use this are such as a lan card you might get this problem use the x e efff in your emm exe line in config sys if you run memmaker then instruct it retain inclusions and exclusions
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	printer security anyone know of a good software package that will allow us to keep track of who is printing what and when is there any way to get print manager to keep a log is there a print manager replacement that will do this how about a package that will only allow access to the system for people in a password file i looked at chastity but it will let you log in without a password and doesn t keep tabs of who got on and when any help will be greatly appreciated mark juric a i programs mjuric ai uga edu university of georgia athens georgia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re why i m not using dos anymore mark woodruff cda ucf vm bitnet wrote this morning at am while i was working on my research paper i had to reboot a hung dos program that did no disk i o from within windows when my machine finished rebooting i found my windows directory and about two thirds of my other directories were irreversibly corrupted stuff deleted this sounds like what happened to my hd a month ago my hd was stacked with stacker v i run dos suddenly everything hung up and most of the hd got corrupted directories changed into unreadable files with funny names in other words it is probably just the doubledisk part of dos that is troublesome i now use stacker v and so far i have had no trouble elisabeth bull e mail eliza swix nvg unit no
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re need longer filenames is there a utility out there that will let me use filenames longer than the standard format yep it s called os yep you can use any type of unix or maybe vms or buy a mac or something if you want longer filenames for your documents i heard of a wordprocessor for windows which let you assign long names to files those long filenames could only be seen from that programs open save dialogs though maybe someone knows more about this wordprocessor than i do if i rember correctly lotus notes gives u this possiblity among other things tom softsys se
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows nt help needed with io error x hi everybody out there i just got the third beta release disk march of windowsnt and still am not able to boot up that system the final step achieved is the display of io error x but since this is the beta release of the sdk for nt and not of nt microsoft does not include a manual on the os itself explaining what this error means of what i can do to get rid of my configuration is mainboard hauppauge rev a a with socket for i megs of memory k m m ami eisa scsi controller series latest bios mb cache st n hard disk syquest removable disk toshiba cd rom drive proaudio spectrum plus longshine ethernet card lcs ne comp et graphics card meg colorimage the system is running fine under dos and windows etc but trying to do the setup for nt automatic setup does not recognize controller aha compat when adding manually nt complains not finging any cd rom drive the manual setup winnt does not copy everything from cd to hd does not recognize controller but takes it manually setup continues until it tries to boot then it starts loading several stuff from disk seems to fing the hd but messing up with that damned io error i took away all io cards not essential but that did not make any effect anybody got any ideas help would be greatly appreciated michael linder mlinder tonet physik tu berlin de institute of optics tech univ berlin germany
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	terminal setup how i am new to windows and i wanted to know how to setup the terminal program i have a modem in com but when it try to configure it inside windows i get the messare unsupported com can anyone help me sam
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re more cool bmp files in article apr dlss james dlss james cummings writes newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path atldbs uupsi psinntp uunet gatech howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net convex seas smu edu void dalnet dlss james from james dlss james cummings subject re more cool bmp files message id apr dlss organization redrock development references apr gmuvax gmu edu distribution usa date tue apr gmt lines in article apr gmuvax gmu edu rwang gmuvax gmu edu john wang writes hi everybody i guess my subject has said it all it is getting boring looking at those same old bmp files that came with windows so i am wondering if there is any body has some beautiful bmp file i can share or maybe somebody can tell me some ftp site for some bmp files like some scenery files some animals files etc i used to have some unfortunately i delete them all anyway could me give me some help please in response to a different kinda wallpaper here s what i use i think the original gif whatever was called not real the artist name and logo is in the lower right corner you will need vga i think and i have this sized for x color screens use this in your windows directory and do not tile it hope you enjoy i had a question abo owen adair wd fsu adair dbsoftware com d b software backbone uupsi atldbs adair there is an alarming increase of topics i know nothing about
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse ecktons ucs byu edu sean eckton writes i have a microsoft serial mouse and am using mouse com was using i think but switched to to see if it was any better vertical motion is nice and smooth but horizontal motion is so bad i sometimes can t click on something because my mouse jumps around i can be moving the mouse to the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for a bit then jump to the right then move smoothly for a bit then jump again maybe this time to the left about inch this is crazy i have never had so much trouble with a mouse before anyone have any solutions here is another hint i have a really jumping mouse ps type and finally the mouse stops jump changing himem sys yes himem is you use device himem sys m x x can be of course my computer don t appear on the list for these parameter and maybe your mouse can stop jump but your problem looks more like a dirty mouse hope it help to anybody alejandro cifuentes h acifuent isluga puc cl
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos a loaded gun was why i m not using dos anymore mark woodruff cda ucf vm bitnet writes i ve been running dos for about a month i was generally impressed with the improvements the multiple boot configurations were great the new commands were nice and doublespace worked fine twice as slow for large data transfers twice as fast for small with smartdrv until now this morning at am while i was working on my research paper i had to reboot a hung dos program that did no disk i o from within windows when my machine finished rebooting i found my windows directory and about two thirds of my other directories were irreversibly corrupted i cannot afford problems like this i m returning to dos mark p s i ve also noticed bad sector errors from doublespace where none should exist infoworld april issue has two articles about problems with dos a second look article calls it a loaded gun and that people should exercise extreme caution if they decide to use it the point out that doublespace and memmaker are both problem areas that will cause a number of folks problems ms s response was to the effect that there had been no problems reported that they could duplicate probably are not trying too hard cringely reports that a lot of folks are getting going to get burned on the support lines his example was a call that cost for minutes of tech support after minutes on hold i want to see the ms spin doctors explain this
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re why i m not using dos anymore eliza tigern elisabeth bull writes mark woodruff cda ucf vm bitnet wrote this morning at am while i was working on my research paper i had to reboot a hung dos program that did no disk i o from within windows when my machine finished rebooting i found my windows directory and about two thirds of my other directories were irreversibly corrupted stuff deleted this sounds like what happened to my hd a month ago my hd was stacked with stacker v i run dos suddenly everything hung up and most of the hd got corrupted directories changed into unreadable files with funny names in other words it is probably just the doubledisk part of dos that is troublesome i now use stacker v and so far i have had no trouble this pretty much confirms my original impression after reading through the documentation on dos the double space sounds nice but not on your primary disk i ll probably wind up making a disk partition d and doublespacing it using it as an archive probably would be useful on floppy disks as well but on c uh uh i particularly disliked the note that said something like double space is irreversible cindy cindy tittle moore internet tittle ics uci edu bitnet cltittle uci bitnet uucp ucbvax ucivax tittle usnail po box irvine ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows enhanced mode how to get icon functionality i recently set windows up on my dx vlb system and i didn t notice until last night that i don t have the icon in my control panel i don t remember windows setup asking me about enhanced mode whether i wanted it or not now i ve got a program that i just bought aldus freehand that is telling me that i should be running windows in enhanced mode looks like i m running in standard mode how can switch to enhanced mode without the little icon thingie are there some issues involved with vesa lb systems which cause windows to not want to give you enhanced mode thanks for any help david victor
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re help with changing startup logo in article aa f fidonet org c doelle p f n z fidonet org c doelle writes hello brad monday april brad smalling wrote to crosspost all bs since i don t know your setup bs copy b win cnf vgalogo lgo vgalogo rle win com bs i grabbed this from supercharging windows by judd robbins great book bs this is also how you can put your own logo into the windows startup brad what is the procedure used to specially compress the bmp file i would to a rle file love to use some of my bmp files i have created as a logo screen thanks chris origin chris doelle f n z fidonet org i thought i d reply to this though i ain t brad at any case a lot of picture file viewers that will convert say between gif etc to bmp will convert to rle i know for a fact that paintshop shareware from cica desktop i think filename psvvv zip i think where vvv is the ver number if that s not true let me know and i ll post a corection this however will write your rle file with a bmp extension so you have to rename it now another thing this is from the windows faq your file has to be less than k at least that s what the faq says but mine wont work for more than about maybe they mend k i don t know your file has to fit vga size or whatever standard vga size is if you use a non vga screen e g cga ega svga there is also a way to do it but i thing instead of vgalogo lgo you use another file such as cgalogo lgo egalogo lgo or something i m not sure about this as i have a vga but i m sure you could find it in the faq a windows help ver of which is available at cica but don t konw the filename also your bmp has to be colours or less these specs rule out some of the good bmp s i found cartoon drawings work quite well as they have the advantage of looking good with little memory finally remember to save your current win com before and put your new win com in the windows directory also don t start windows from a directory where another win com is present as that is used instead of the one in the windows dir and win won t start share this fairly but don t take a slice of my pie pf mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make a ms windows grp file reflect a hd directory well i ain t always right but i ve never been wrong gd
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows zip unzip in article rl b h c sol deakin oz au russ deakin oz au russ sharp writes we are using pkzip v and i am interested to hear from people who have used one of the many windows programs that call these which ones are available and does any one stand out amongst the rest well i got winzip from cica don t know which version but i think it s the latest as this is not long ago and i was initially imressed but here s the low down winzip is a great progra as long as you only unzip it lets you vew files unzip only selected files and even puts the files in a checkout directory and creates a checkout grp and group if you want to check the program out it even prompts for deletion of these on exit if you didn t like the program however big however over here i have problems zipping i don t konw specifics on this or ammount of consistency but sometimes when i zip a few files or add a file to a zip dos will violate something or other and i ll be asked in a kind micro oft kind of way to quit all applications quit windows and restart my computer i don t know as i said how consistent this is as i jdont zip much and when i do now i just go to dos and use it from there or just use the run cmd but i do know it s happened when i added files to an existing zip file and when i created a new zip file using selected files only i don t know if it s happened when i zip an entire dir still it has a rather nice interface and quite useful unzip ing functions if the above is fixed i ll be the first to register the new ver as for now a good old run unzip zip will work ps if a new ver is out that fixes these please let me know peace mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make a ms windows grp file reflect a hd directory well i ain t always right but i ve never been wrong gd
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re boot up sometimes fails in article dbasson mattek csir co za dbasson mattek csir co za dominique basson writes dos never used the area e efff as well as some others if you have any cards that use this are such as a lan card you might get this problem use the x e efff in your emm exe line in config sys if you run memmaker then instruct it retain inclusions and exclusions speaking of that my comp has emmexclude e efff or something of that nature in the system ini file or some system file for windows i was just wondering if having that line in a windows startup file is better as it will give some more memory on dos apps but disable it when you run windows actually i do think that that line is also in the system file peace mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make a ms windows grp file reflect a hd directory well i ain t always right but i ve never been wrong gd
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mouse odometer hello do you know about a mouse odometer for windows i have seen one for the mac it is quite fun it records the distance in miles that the travels during use thanks in advance steve steven ruegsegger if you are a conservative when you are young smr po cwru edu you have no heart if you are a liberal when you are old you have no brain
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	internationalization of applications and muulti byte characters we are researching what support there is on various platforms for applications to use multi byte characters e g japanese kanji we know that unix and x windows can contain support for the i n standard depending on level and platform what support for i n or wide characters exists on the mac windows and windows nt steve chesney slc catherine cim cdc com metaphase technology inc voice north lexington avenue fax arden hills mn
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re help with changing startup logo in article aa f fidonet org c doelle writes brad what is the procedure used to specially compress the bmp file i would love to use some of my bmp files i have created as a logo screen thanks chris origin chris doelle f n z fidonet org i don t know the specifics of the compression algorithm but i ve used the shareware program paintshop to convert between the two you can download it from ftp cica indiana edu but i don t know what the file is called or what directory it is in you can start by looking in pub pc win or try scanning the index files to convert a bmp file to a rle file you just load the bmp file and do a save as select windows bitmap and compressed or is it rle whatever it is it s fairly intuitive sorry i don t have all the details but i m currently on an ibm dumb terminal and can t do much researching good luck brad smalling jr ee ga tech atlanta ga gt c prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	bitmap re what does the bmp format mean iuj el ie kiu lando demandis pri bitmap oj kaj iu el fi finnlando respondis dirante pri libro en software development kit eble la demandinto ne havas la elvolvilo por malmol varoj that was esperanto some from ie asked about bitmaps and some from fi responded saying about a book int the software development kit possibly the asker does not have the development kit gxong cxjijaux s ro
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	bitmap re what does the bmp format mean pardonon mi ofte konfuzigxas pri mola kaj malmola do mol vara i was confused between soft and hard as in software gxong cxjijaux
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win lock up at mil on dia stelth x help please help if you can whenever i try to run windows useing the million color mode with the drivers supplyed with my diamond stelth x it will lock up requireing a full system reset to break out the drivers that i have for windows are v for windows which is the version of windows i am useing my setup dx kcach megs of ram svga touch monitor non interlaced ami bios any and all help would be apreciated the card seems to work fine in other modes i usually run windows in x mode and probs at all so i am hopeing it is a driver and not a card problem paul gubbins cpt tiamat umd umich edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	leaking memory resources in this may be an faq if so please direct me to the known answer but i am getting frustrated and looking for help i am running win with ndw on a sx with meg of memory and a meg perm swap file and am getting exceedingly frustrated that my applications are not giving back system resources when i close them when i load windows i start with about resources available but many of the application programs i run regularly wpwin vb winqvt lotus organizer etc seem to not return all their resources when i exit them after a day or two of work i often find myself down under of available resources even when i have no applications other than my shell running i am aware this is a known problem what i am looking for are some suggestions of what i might do to mitigate it what software is the culprit win ndw my applications are some modes of win standard real enhanced better than others at plugging this leak are their system ini switches i can set to help plug this leak do people know of patches or third party software that help with this seems like increasing or better managing system resources is a great market for a third party memory company like qemm if i run progman instead of ndw will the leak subside i was hoping that ndw would have plugged this but it seems no different than in how it deals with memory and resources when i am writing vb code are there things i can do to make it less likely my code will eat resources any other suggestions that i don t know enough to ask for specifically thanks for your help as this is a common problem and i have seen only a little discussion of it on the net there are probably others who would like to read answers so please publish here rather than sending me email danny daniel david mittleman danny arizona edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help finding best development kit i m new to the ms windows world and while a fairly competent sparc nextstep programmer i have no idea which development kit to purchase i have heard good things about borland c with application frameworks and microsoft s visual c with sdk what i would like is peoples comments on which package or set of tools they find useful or productive and why there are a plethora of other kits such as gui toolkits available and i m wondering which of these are best in terms of reliability plug and go type operation readability and so on i d be interested in comments on these or anything else you may find useful i will summarize to the net if there is enough interest thanks veenu vrr cbnewsj att com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	changing system font hello i have windows and i was wondering what is necessary to change the default system font to something else i have just obtained msc c with sdk so i d really like to get my feet wet with doing my first windows pro gram to change the system font tx william f maton acadvm uottawa ca the mercedes benz convertible u csi uottawa ca the unicycle
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ati ultra pro windows ok i just got a new mb with a ati ultra pro and i can t get into windows it says that i need more memory available but i have mb ogf extended mem k of conventionnal i have disabled my memory aperture because it didn t find any free memory but it still gave me a message that the memory aperture will conflict with system memory i think that s why it want to get in windows any help will greatly be appriciated please reply by mail because this site is a week late on news thanks gel
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re where to get ati card video drivers fonts in rju p hah access digex net farley access digex com charles u farley writes does anyone know where i can ftp or somehow else acquire the latest video drivers fonts for an ati svga adapter the only floppy i have is for windows does anyone know if ati is still in business thanks farley access digex com charles u farley average iq of calgary board of ed employee you can get them from the ati bbs it a number should be on your manuals if not the tech support number will tell you the bbs number
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	pcx from w w hi folks i have a question how can i generate a pcx file using word for windows i know i can select a postscript printer driver to get a ps file but how can i generate a pcx file is there a printer capture utility for windows that ever exists or a utility to transfer ps format to pcx format or tiff format please reply by e mail i will give a summary thanks shiyu zhang syzhang ccit arizona edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	microsoft printing system or something like that i saw an ad for this and it basically is an advanced print manager it lets you monitor your printing more closely and comes with a bunch of true type fonts anyone have this good bad worth it
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	trouble with sound blaster pro drivers recently windows has starting giving me the error sound blaster pro requires newer version of windows it has worked correctly for a long time and don t know what the problem could be thanks jeff kaz kaczmarek kaz iastate edu the future is long past forgotten when you re on the road to madness geoff tate queensryche
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	local windows vs shared windows discussion i would like to see a serious discussion on the best way to install windows from a novell administrator s point of view i just got off the phone with ms access support and was told that they microsoft has decided to implement as a standard for software support the local setup described below as the most advantageous installation if this is true and microsoft deems this to be the most prudent installation then i will comply but i d like to hear it from administrators first the local windows installation windows is fully installed on each workstation hard drive assuming the resources are available from a network administrator s implementation he she would install all windows disks on a network drive using setup a then install windows on a per machine bases by running setup off the network to install the complete system on the local drives in this way all drivers are available to the setup procedure w o the need to change disks advantages reduce traffic running windows locally reduces network traffic due to the local access of main windows files network independence if the network fails and they all do at one point or another the local installation would allow users to keep producing and reduce the cost of down time faster windows theoretically windows will run faster from a local hard drive than over a network this may be a hard point to prove if the network has an optical backbone and or the network drives are significantly faster access than local ones a user traveling from machine to machine does not need to worry about varying setups monochrome color types of mouse etc since the windows installation is assigned to the workstation disadvantages cost installing windows locally requires a significant amount of disk space workstations now must be purchased with a hard disk that can increase the cost of the workstation from to percent administration local windows installations are very difficult to administer new drivers for peripherals are constantly being made available each of which would have to be individually installed on each workstation security users now have access to erase or corrupt their own system files from simple ignorance this could result in quite a headache for administrators who may have to constantly repair damaged installations backup we all know the problems backing up local hard disks the backup sets if done via a centralized tape system get very large very quickly backup individually to floppy may not happen at all this may be eliminated if it is assumed that local hard disks only contain replaceable applications and not user data the shared windows installation windows is fully installed to a network disk via the setup a procedure described above users or administrators then install a minimal set of files to individual user directories these directories may be on a local hard disk or perhaps a network home directory the bulk of the windows system files are maintained on the network in a single directory some files and are accessed shared as needed by users throughout their windows session the user s files consist of a small set of files that the user has updated during his her windows session these include group files ini files and other regularly updated files advantages a single location for all files makes updates to drives easy as an updated driver becomes available it only needs to be installed in this single directory for all users to be able to take advantage of it assuming that the users files are maintained in network home directories the administrator can easily edit any ini file as needed to correct problems that may arise this includes win ini and system ini backup of all pertinent files is done easily even if the users files are on a local hard disk the bulk of the windows system is backed up with all driver updates disadvantages network traffic since all windows files are being shared in a network directory traffic on the network can become a problem an effect the speed of windows if the network crashes all production comes to a stop since window s is reliant upon the network for its files loss of data usually occurs as well since users working in windows at the time of the crash will usually not be able to save their work although minimal disk space is still a consideration if the users files are maintained on the network a large number of users can cause a significant utilization of disk space due to their personal windows files alone users cannot easily move from machine to machine unless the workstation hardware are similar this is due to the windows installation being tied to a particular username in the case of network user files the discussion i would like to know from other administrators with a large windows userbase how they prefer setting up windows personally i have setup numerous installations using the shared setup all windows and application files are on the network with little or no utilization of local hard disks in fact i sold a network on the fact that the company would no longer need to purchase hard disks for their workstations and thus save that much more money i would also like to see recommendations for applications should apps such as word and or excel be installed locally regardless of how windows is installed again i keep all files on the network for easy backup and administration but this is putting all eggs in one basket if the network crashes work comes to a halt now i am sure microsoft and i know your out there has their own ideas about this and their insights would be of great value but i hope to hear from people with actual working experience with users and network administration
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re help with changing startup logo in article apr seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes in article aa f fidonet org c doelle p f n z fidonet org c doelle writes hello brad monday april brad smalling wrote to crosspost all bs copy b win cnf vgalogo lgo vgalogo rle win com unecessary bs i grabbed this from supercharging windows by judd robbins great book bs this is also how you can put your own logo into the windows startup might do it too much trouble brad bmp will convert to rle i know for a fact that paintshop shareware from cica desktop i think filename psvvv zip i think where vvv is the ver number if that s not true let me know and i ll this however will write your rle file with a bmp extension so you have to rename it your file has to be less than k at least that s what the faq says but mine wont work for more than about maybe they mend k i don t know agreed mixali your file has to fit vga size or whatever standard vga size is if you use a non vga screen e g cga ega svga there is also a way to do it but i thing instead of vgalogo lgo you use another file not entirely true also your bmp has to be colours or less true finally remember to save your current win com before and put your new win com in the windows directory also don t start windows from a unecessary mickey path of least resistance tm get wingif from cica ftp cica indiana edu pub pc win desktop it will save to native rle format unlike psp an otherwise fine fine prog make a file using anything that has to be less than k as michael said and less than colors import it to wingif as gif pcx or bmp and save it in you windows system subdir as vgalogo rle not lgo exit win and run setup in the windows subdir reselect your current config run win voila minor correction the rle file has to be k that means k gif hope it helps and please please someone put this in the group s faq costas malamas georgia institute of technology oit ua oit doesn t pay me enough to share its opinions internet ccastco prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows zip unzip in article rl b h c sol deakin oz au russ deakin oz au russ sharp writes we are using pkzip v and i am interested to hear from people who have used one of the many windows programs that call these is there a full windows version that does not call the dos pkzip pkunzip commands russ sharp russ deakin edu au ph fax winzip ftp cica indiana edu pub pc win util it is a shell it does call dos but a very very good one it will also do arc arj and lzh it fully supports pkzip try using it it might be a shell very unobtrusive but that also means you dont need to update it with every every other letter of the alphabet version of pkzip hope it helps costas malamas georgia institute of technology oit ua oit doesn t pay me enough to share its opinions internet ccastco prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	tcp ip through windows i don t know much about computers so please bear with me here s my question context i use a package called slip on my home computer to connect to the university mainframe an ibm running vms mvs and log on to my account when i installed slip on my computer i had to configure it for my modem kbs etronics internal and had to supply the phone number to dial to reach the mainframe the way it works now is that i type telnet uicvm or tn uicvm either will work at the dos prompt uicvm is the node name of the mainframe the program then dials the mainframe establishes a protocol and gives me the logon screen telnet and tn are the names of batch files in my slip directory i have been told that a kermit protocol is used for the session problem i would like to be able to do all this under windows because i hardly ever use dos directly slip will not run under windows i talked to the people at our computer center and they suggested that i use a packet driver called winpkt com with slip they gave me instructions on how to load it before i start windows and how to modify the tcpstart and tcpstop batch files in the slip directory to ensure that it would work i did all that and i could run slip from windows but there were other problems for one thing slip would not hang up the phone when i exited i had to run my communi cations program to hang up the phone or reboot the computer when that didn t work for another there were too many errors it often took me tries to connect to the mainframe our computer center does not support slip under windows so i can t keep going back to them with more questions question is there some other shareware package that will run under windows and do what slip is supposed to do i need a package that is not too expensive which is why i am looking for shareware i have heard that there are regular commercial packages that do all this but they cost hundreds of dollars these are the main requirements must be able to run under windows must allow vt and ibm tn terminal emulation must allow ftp file transfers since that s the only kind the mainframe allows no y modem or z modem etc i believe the ftp transfers are made through a kermit protocol but i m hazy about that a subsidiary feature that would be nice to have if it s a true windows program rather than a dos program modified to run under windows is the ability to run the session in a window concurrently with other applications and to cut and paste between the telnet session and other applications any information received is appreciated pankaj saxena u uicvm uic edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	codabar font hi i need a codabar font for win tt or other thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows zip unzip in article rl b h c sol deakin oz au russ deakin oz au russ sharp writes we are using pkzip v and i am interested to hear from people who have used one of the many windows programs that call these which ones are available and does any one stand out amongst the rest is there a full windows version that does not call the dos pkzip pkunzip commands yes russ there is quinzip is a windows version but i don t think it handles all the functions available in the dos version last i looked quinzip could be found on the monash university australia mirror site of cica so i d assume it s still on cica itself and other mirrors have a look in the util s directory for a file called qzip zip o paul blackman pwb science canberra edu au o water research centre pwb aerg canberra edu au o faculty of applied science o university of canberra australia spend a little love and get high lenny kravitz
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows and imf boards i am interested to know if there is know procedure document to configure an ibm musci feature imf card to work as the sound device with ms windows i believe the imf uses the same fm synth chip as the soun blaster but didn t know what driver to use or how to configure the midi mapper any help past success suggestions thanks don donald finch technical support engr n american solution centers voice microsystems fax email don finch corp sun com m s mtv
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	observation floppy copy works under pgm mgr but not dos shell has anyone observed this if i copy a large say k file a large pkzip file for instance to my floppy drive under ms windows via either program manager or a dos shell the file copied under the dos shell has errors whereas the file copied from within program manager does not the corruption is detected by executing pkunzip t b file zip after both copies the file copied via the dos shell always shows corruption now here s the kicker i have many windows open while doing this both dos and windows apps supposedly all windows apps share the same time slice whereas the dos apps get their own equal time slice unless overriden so as an example i have windows apps open multitasking dos sessions running and one execution execlusive dos shell iconized inactive under this scenario cpu time is divided into two major slices one for all the windows apps and one slice for the running dos app when copying under windows pgm mgr i ll assume the other windows and dos tasks are essentially inactive thus pgm mgr gets say of the windows slice and of the execution background dos shell s slices thus it gets or of the total available cpu time when copying in a dos shell i activate the execute exclusive mode dos shell no other dos background tasks allowed full screen under the windows task manager the cpu time available to this shell would be of the windows slice assumming inactive windows applications and of the dos slice or of the total available cpu time so why do i get copy errors under dos if it has the greater amount of cpu time is program manager working in a pre emptive mode during the floppy copy it must be miscellaneous data running windows on top of dos qemm x rapidbios sys mbyte smartdrive no delayed writes two ramdrives logitech mouse driver full mbytes motherboard ram kbyte motherboard cache dx mhz running dos edit com tsr in the dos shell wayne long oe internet wcl risc sps mot com william cannon drive west uucp cs texas edu oakhill risc wcl austin texas phone fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	please help wierd problem somebody help me cure my poor computer before i go insane i have a problem with my when running windows that appears to be memory related it s actually not limited to windows but that s where it causes most of my problems ths machine s dx meg ram kcache trident tvga card pas soundcard windows runs really really slow most of the time slower than on my old sx graphics draws fills are slow boots are slow applications are sluggish dialog boxes take up to seconds to appear note some of my other non windows applications do funny things that appear to be related several run slow my mod player crashes the system etc running borland c before running windows or any of the other programs completely fixes the problem windows will run as fast as i ve ever seen it run easily times faster for graphics than when i don t run bc beforehand i don t have a memory manager installed in config sys installing emm exe does not fix the problem it makes it worse after emm is installed running bc will not fix the problem anymore this problem is driving me nuts if you think you can help please reply through the mail thanks evan
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	bj and lbp pr drivers needed hello could anybody be so kind and tell me the date and possible ftp location of the most recent win printer drivers for canon bj e and canon lbp i would really appreciate if you could help me with this thanks in advance kjell hut fi kjell niksula hut fi kjell vipunen hut fi
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows zip unzip in article rl b h c sol deakin oz au russ deakin oz au russ sharp writes we are using pkzip v and i am interested to hear from people who have used one of the many windows programs that call these which ones are available and does any one stand out amongst the rest is there a full windows version that does not call the dos pkzip pkunzip commands do you mean a prog that doesn t jump to the dos display and then back or create a temp dos window if yes then i might recommend winzip from ftp cica indiana edu i m afraid i don t have the file name or version but you should be able to find it it s fully compatible with ver g and very functional later phil trodwell this space i d be happy to ram a goddam volt cattle for rent prod into that tub with you right now but not cheap this radio hunter s thompson
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re program manager kills my group files in article reiqj qtr access digex net bsmith access digex com barry smith writes any clue some times when i enter win progman says that i need to rebuild a group it s quite annoying i ve had the same problem with a maxtor a turned off smartdrive bit disk access etc this same disk aborts norton speed disk nu up to times requesting ndd to be run when attempting to defrag drive at some peoples suggestion i reformatted my drive and reloaded dos win from scratch a few people found that installing on top of beta on top of caused a similar problem so i tried this drastic solution when the problem reoccurred i didn t have the brains not to load and dblespaced the drive i get arround the annoyance by copying my grp files to gro when i get the message i run file manager and copy the offeniding group files from gro ove rthe grp then i quit and restart windows if the group is an often used important one this really sucks but i m pretty sure that the problem is the drive especially with the nsd problem i will be going with out over of my memory after finals for to weeks while the guy i bought the disk and system from goes over it and either fixes it or replaces the drive i can t wait to have a system that will run consistently with all hte goodies mike hayes knowledge is good faber college motto www knowledge and thoroughness rensselear poly motto unemployed tech no thank you groucho marx a day at the races driven to banging my head against engineering physics for years
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows nt und x windows in apr eurom rhein main de hein eurom rhein main de hein roehrig writes i am not sure whether i am here in the right area but does anybody here know whether windows nt does will include a x windows server so that it can run x window applications remotely no it does not insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re leaking memory resources in in apr bpavms bpa arizona edu dmittleman bpavms bpa arizona edu daniel mittleman writes this may be an faq if so please direct me to the known answer but i am getting frustrated and looking for help i am running win with ndw on a sx with meg of memory and a meg perm swap file and am getting exceedingly frustrated that my applications are not giving back system resources when i close them i am aware this is a known problem what i am looking for are some suggestions of what i might do to mitigate it what software is the culprit win ndw my applications are some modes of win standard real enhanced better than others at plugging this leak it s the applications that do this unfortunately even the applets that ship with win seem to have this problem i ve seen it in solitaire for example are their system ini switches i can set to help plug this leak none that i know of if an application doesn t give back the resources they are lost and gone forever pending a restart of windows do people know of patches or third party software that help with this seems like increasing or better managing system resources is a great market for a third party memory company like qemm if the applications don t free up the memory and a lot of them don t there s bugger all that any other piece of software can do about it if i run progman instead of ndw will the leak subside i was hoping that ndw would have plugged this but it seems no different than in how it deals with memory and resources no this is a problem with the applications usually when i am writing vb code are there things i can do to make it less likely my code will eat resources there are books written on this one in general just be sure to free up everything that you ask for before you exit unfortunately i understand that vb will internally lose resources for you so there s no way to avoid this entirely any other suggestions that i don t know enough to ask for specifically thanks for your help as this is a common problem and i have seen only a little discussion of it on the net there are probably others who would like to read answers so please publish here rather than sending me email there s little discussion because it s inevitable until ms manages to come up with an os that will do garbage collection or something on the resource pool insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help how to allocate more memory for disk copying in file manager when i use file manager s disk copy i find that windows can read the whole mb disk at one time but only of a disk it looks like a problem of memory however the pc has mb ram there should be some way to allocat more extended memory for disk copy please advise me on this matter thanks in advance huayong
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows nt und x windows in article apr mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com fred j mccall writes in apr eurom rhein main de hein eurom rhein main de hein roehrig writes i am not sure whether i am here in the right area but does anybody here know whether windows nt does will include a x windows server so that it can run x window applications remotely no it does not could you add some information to non it does not say for instance your source of information thanks kan mongwa mongwa acsu buffalo edu suny buffalo bitnet v wxkp ubvms humpty dumpty electrical engineering c wxkp ubvm
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re canon bj bubblejet and hp deskjet thomas d fellrath nd edu nd edu wrote size is another factor the bj is much smaller but the hp is built like a tank i bet the bj would get damaged first you bet your bippy it s built like a tank and not just mechanically either this past weekend we had a nasty thunderstorm and the impossible happened i got a direct lightning strike on my house and to the second floor outlet box into which my faithful deskjet c was connected there was a bullet sized hole in the aluminum siding with some solidified aluminum slag dripping from it you could actually see the electrical box through the hole the outlet itself was fried and i m still amazed the whole damn house didn t burn down i lost electric garage door openers vcr s telephones all of which were on the opposite side of the house a zyxel u e high speed modem a vga monitor a x color monitor the rs and parallel ports on my x terminal and a wd lan card in my pc not a good night but the deskjet ran as soon as i found a functioning serial and parallel port to connect to it ted slightly singed rypma hp panacom division waterloo ontario
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	quietwriter ii driver i m trying to get a hold of an ibm quietwriter ii printer driver for windows if such a beast exists can someone suggest how i get it please mail me a reply directly as i don t normally read this group many thanks david brown dbrown mach wlu ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	replacement for program m maw ying yuan wrote from yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu maw ying yuan subject replacement for program manager and file manager message id c g g juj news hawaii edu date thu apr gmt replacements for win s program manager and file manager yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu hi i ve been using plannet crafter s plug in for program manager its listed in most bbs es as plugin its an add on which gives some needed features to progman such as the ability to better manage your groups change your cursor and icons on the fly constant status of ram and resources quick menu a drop down menu of dos commands or app launcher plus some other neat stuff used it liked it and even reg d it g if you can t find it anywhere let me know and i ll zip it up and mail it to you shareware version of course g aloha es all hope abandon ye who enter messages here slmr a idc bbs usr hst k usr ds v bis alameda california home of kingmail kingqwk and qwkmerge
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re actix video card drivers for windows on apr gmt kym burgemeister kburg aelmg adelaide edu au wrote in apr jarvis csri toronto edu wongda eecg toronto edu daniel y h wong writes i am looking for the latest drivers for the actix graphics accelerator card the driver i am currently using is version and doesn t support more than colors in x mode even you have mb memory the bbs support for actix is unbelievable they are still using bps modem it will take you hours to download the drivers it hurts when you are calling long distance is there any ftp site that has a collection of video drivers for windows good but where are these drivers daniel y h wong uoft anybody at actix listening upload the dang drivers to an ftp site pleeeeeeese or somebody get them by a local call and contact a ftp site for uploading if this is not possible i can keep them on my disk and email the at request uuencoded provided that somebody sends them to me of cource i live in ny penio penev x w internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	some info the dos msw meltdown is progressing nicely the preferred applications development platform according to of the fortune corporations survey by sentry market research survey all percentages unix mainframe dos msw os midrange this is from corporate computing may page it s interesting to see how the greatest vapour project of the world has not been able to make much of a difference here before you think it s a interesting rag they have this incredibly incompetent article opinion piece by someone named robert ziff which has preposturous statements like sun has sold around multiprocessing servers in that case usc has around of all sun mp servers on earth he is off by a factor of i thought of sending them a factual disaster email message they have a column titled how to contact us but being silly pcheads they seem to have never heard of the internet these may also be of interest world computer market share by broad category dos windows netware unix ibm mainframe vax vms ibm minis macintosh other totally billion projections are by idc source unix world jan unix hardware sales by category billion installed base workstations million midrange million large scale pc unix million total ajay shah ajayshah rcf usc edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	please do not post bitmaps from pwiseman salmon usd edu cliff organization university of south dakota subject roman bmp in response to the requests for cool bitmaps i am posting one date pm due to the resolution and size it is in parts this is a uuencoded bitmap x colors the picture is a marbled gazebo on a desert with blue sky background the size is just right for centered wallpaper on a x display because it leaves a border at the bottom just big enough for icons to fit in without being on top of the picture reguarding image quality and resolution i have not seen much better please do not do this i don t know how the rest of you read news but here s how i do it i subscribe to an outernet system which allows me to dial up via modem and download e mail and news articles automatically when someone posts a huge attached binary file i have no choice but to receive it along with all the other new articles in the groups i subscribe to i also pay for the connect time which is normally not a problem because i have a k modem and each day s upload download session takes only minutes or so today s session however lasted about minutes because of roman bmp consequently it cost me about extra just to receive a file that i didn t want in the first place if you have cool bitmaps that you want to make available there are other ways to do it either upload the file to an ftp site like ftp cica indiana edu which has a complete windows section and tell people how to get to it or use one of the newsgroups like alt binaries pictures or something like that which are file archives rather than discussion groups don t use discussion groups like this one to send out attached files especially when they re k in size thanks ed klein eklein spiff win net
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re ms mouse driver in article apr princeton edu phoenix princeton edu carlosn carlos g niederstrasser writes does anyone have the documentation for the ms mouse driver i got it when i got windows but my windows manual does not come with the documentation in particular i need to know how to turn it off and how to speed it up outside windows the greater sensitivity is needed so i can play various games esp x wing the sensitivity is changed using the s v or h parameter the commands do the following v vertical sensitivity h horizontal sensitivity s both follow the parameter with a number from to slowest fastest the default is you can type the command mouse s right from the keyboard or add it to autoexec bat hope this helps
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re why i m not using dos anymore in article apr ugle unit no eliza tigern elisabeth bull writes from eliza tigern elisabeth bull subject re why i m not using dos anymore date wed apr gmt mark woodruff cda ucf vm bitnet wrote this morning at am while i was working on my research paper i had to reboot a hung dos program that did no disk i o from within windows when my machine finished rebooting i found my windows directory and about two thirds of my other directories were irreversibly corrupted stuff deleted this sounds like what happened to my hd a month ago my hd was stacked with stacker v i run dos suddenly everything hung up and most of the hd got corrupted directories changed into unreadable files with funny names in other words it is probably just the doubledisk part of dos that is troublesome i now use stacker v and so far i have had no trouble does this need to have anything to do with disk compression i have experienced the same thing a couple of times myself but without any disk compression stuff installed for example guess what happened when norton speeddisk once crashed during defragmenting bjorn bjorn myrland bjorn myrland sipaa sintef no sintef safety and reliability n trondheim norway sintef the foundation for scientific and industrial research at the norwegian institute of technology
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	printer driver wanted i m looking for a printer driver for the apple imagewriter ii this printer is actually the same as a citoh jim littlefield only two things are infinite the universe little hks com and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstein
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re question on eisa video board performance from article c ubg k w world std com by cfw world std com christopher f wroten i have an eisa machine and i just do not understand why most eisa video cards only match the performance of their isa counterparts for instance the eisa orchid pro designer iis e is only about as fast as the isa diamond speedstar plus which isn t what i would call fast i don t understand why eisa video cards aren t as a group on the same level of performance as local bus cards given that eisa video cards have a bit bus to move data around instead of isa s bits good question answer the eisa bus does move bits rather than isa s but it still moves it at about the speed as the isa bus i think that s either or mhz the local bus designs also move bits like the eisa but they move the data at the cpu speed up to mhz so on a mhz cpu the local bus is moving bit data at mhz and the eisa is moving bit data at or mhz so the local bus should be to times faster than eisa on a mhz cpu eisa should be about two maybe times as fast as isa since they are not why would anyone me included pay a higher cost for a eisa video card when its performance is no better than and often worse that a much cheaper isa video board such as a diamond speedstar x from pc magazine s i think recent report i know that ati makes a pretty fast eisa video card but it s around which is just about double what my wallet will allow me to spend and for i could get a diamond viper and still have left over of course i d have to get a local bus mother board too that s a very good question the eisa bus does have more advantages over the isa bus than just it s width for example more better interrupts and bus mastering but these other factors do not impact a video card very much they have more impact on file servers with multiple hard drives full throttle network cards cd roms etc can anyone shed some light on my confusion frustration thanks christopher wroten cfw world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows nt und x windows in article c ybv wi acsu buffalo edu mongwa acsu buffalo edu kan mongwa says does anybody here know whether windows nt does will include a x windows server could you add some information to no it does not say for instance your source of information source for does not comment the cd rom and manuals for the march beta there is no x windows server there will there be of course even if microsoft supplies one with nt other vendors will no doubt port their s to nt according to a recent newsletter from hummingbird communications ltd they announced exceede nt at uniforum the announcement reads like it is here now but there is no order or price info i would guess it must be rsn there is a dev kit too
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re why i m not using dos anymore regarding the horror stories about dos doubledisk and stacker killing hard drives i was wondering if the dos mirror command works on the doubled drive info as well as the normal fat table and partition table if it records the vital doubledisk info then using it daily should go a long way toward protecting yourself against the type of catastrophic failure discussed if it doesn t then shame on microsoft
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	lockups in enh mode w floppy hi i ve got an older motherboard old as in uses a keyboard controller and uses memory interleaving rather than caching it has developed a problem where trying to copy files from floppy cause the machine to lock up reset button required but only when in enhanced mode this occurs in norton desktop file manager and when trying to install software running win in standard mode works fine has anyone run into this any ideas much thanks appreciated david yon world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re leaking memory resources in dmittleman bpavms bpa arizona edu daniel mittleman writes this may be an faq if so please direct me to the known answer but i am getting frustrated and looking for help i am running win with ndw on a sx with meg of memory and a meg perm swap file and am getting exceedingly frustrated that my applications are not giving back system resources when i close them i ve noticed this also the way it was explained to me is that windows does not clear the upper memory blocks after a program is done anyone out there know if this is why
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos novell netware i friend of mine installed dos at work and is hooked up to a novell network running netware v the problem he s having is that the doublespace program is using drive h as the swap drive which is confliting with the networks mapped drives is there switch to place the swap drive to someother drive please e mail thanks a bunch mahbub cu cleveland freenet edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	where to put my swap file ide or scsi i have a sx and i recently added a scsi drive to my system using an adaptec non busmastering controller yesterday i ran coretest to find out drive performance and these are the values i got seagate meg kb sec ms avg seek ms track to track quantum meg scsi kb sec avg seek track to track first off all are these good results i don t know what typical values are what i m wondering now is the following my swap file is currently on the ide i could move it to the scsi which is faster but then i would not be able to use bit access which might actuall make it slower so on which drive should i put my swap file to get best results is there a swap file speed test program out there finally i also ran the above tests with the aspi dos driver loaded and i got no difference whatsoever in performance is there any reason at all why i should load this driver thanks in advance i will post a summary if i get enough responses eric
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	emm and windows on my pc i almost exclusively run windows the only dos based application i have is procommplus in my config sys i have emm loaded with the option noems no expanded memory following a thread in one of the comp newsgroups i read that it was no necessary to have emm loaded indeed in the manual it says that emm is used to get expanded memory out of extended memory since i have the noems option it seems to me that the emm device is useless in my case should i use emm or should i remove it from my config sys thanks for your help eric
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re some info the dos msw meltdown is progressing nicely ajayshah almaak usc edu ajay shah writes the preferred applications development platform according to of the fortune corporations survey by sentry market research survey all percentages unix mainframe dos msw os midrange this is from corporate computing may page it s interesting to see how the greatest vapour project of the world has not been able to make much of a difference here world computer market share by broad category dos windows netware unix ibm mainframe vax vms ibm minis macintosh other projections are by idc source unix world jan sombody s data is wrong since mac os finder systerm or whatever you want to call it doesn t appear in the first survey i tend to doubt their results more just because sombody wrote it doesn t mean its correct carl zmola cicero spc uchicago edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re where to put my swap file ide or scsi in article apr oracle us oracle com ebosco us oracle com writes i have a sx and i recently added a scsi drive to my system using an adaptec non busmastering controller yesterday i ran coretest to find out drive performance and these are the values i got seagate meg kb sec ms avg seek ms track to track quantum meg scsi kb sec avg seek track to track first off all are these good results i don t know what typical values are those are pretty typical i believe what i m wondering now is the following my swap file is currently on the ide i could move it to the scsi which is faster but then i would not be able to use bit access which might actuall make it slower so on which drive should i put my swap file to get best results is there a swap file speed test program out there keep the swap file on the ide bit access is worth a fair amount more than
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	why are our desktop fonts changing one of our users is having an unusual problem if she does an alt tab to a full screen dos program when she goes back to windows her desktop fonts have changed if she goes back to a full screen dos program and then goes back to windows the font has changed back to its default font it s not a major problem everything works and the font is legible but it is annoying does anyone have any idea why this happens by the way she has a dec d lp machine jeffrey m cohen voice office for research ad fax the university at albany e mail jc uacsc albany edu state university of new york washington ave albany ny
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re replacement for program manager and file manager yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu maw ying yuan writes hi there could someone please suggest one of the better shareware replacements for win s program manager and file manager and which ftp site are they located at thanks in advance for e mail response please post your response as well i think many would be interested in this one thank you wayne long oe internet wcl risc sps mot com william cannon drive west uucp cs texas edu oakhill risc wcl austin texas phone fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows nt should i upgrade hi i am thinking of upgrading to the beta version of windows nt on a sx mhz mb hard disc can someone please give me there opion on such a setup for running nt and is the operating system likely to be better than windows or unix s steve ee d uk ac king ceres
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	x video board hi there i plan on upgrading my monitor and video card to x i have a dx isa no local bus system i would appreciate if anyone can drop me an email of your experience with high resolution video board monitor thanks ming t lin mlin ichips intel com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	vesa driver for ibm xga can anyone tell me where to find a standard vesa display driver that will support the on the motherboard xga video of a mz dx ibm model lf i need to use x and higher resolutions under both windows and ms dos minimum colors at highest resolution with k colors needed at x gary r michael phone associate director fax office for information management e mail gmichael vmd cso uiuc edu university of illinois david kinley hall novanet gary michael duosoft cerl west gregory drive urbana il
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	fast display adaptors for windows a friend and i have ati graphic ultra display adaptors and they have been reasonably good performers but we both have had irritating compatibility problems with the ati drivers and are ready to change to something faster and more compatible with windows i have heard rumblings that the new orchid card is very fast anyone have experience with this card what is currently available that is fast compatible does x x non interlaced and cost under ken keirnan ken keirnan pacific bell kjkeirn srv pacbell com san ramon california
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re emm and windows on my pc i almost exclusively run windows the only dos based application i have is procommplus in my config sys i have emm loaded with the option noems no expanded memory following a thread in one of the comp newsgroups i read that it was no necessary to have emm loaded indeed in the manual it says that emm is used to get expanded memory out of extended memory since i have the noems option it seems to me that the emm device is useless in my case should i use emm or should i remove it from my config sys thanks for your help eric emm noems enables the system to use the upper memory between and that s a good place for device drivers dos kernal etc keep it in
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge to microsoft supporters microsoft is the largest software company on the planet yet i cannot think of even one computing concept that they innovated and brought to market before anyone else xerox parc apple osborne next gnu and others have been pioneers and led the way to the future of computing what has microsoft done to be a technological leader i posted this question before but i got nary a reply i make the challenge now to anyone who can come up with something especially microsoft employees i get no response this time i guess it pretty much assures me that there is none which is what i suspect anyway kurt d bollacker duke university medical center kdb sunbar mc duke edu durham nc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters microsoft is the largest software company on the planet yet i cannot think of even one computing concept that they innovated and brought to market before anyone else xerox parc apple osborne next gnu and others have been pioneers and led the way to the future of computing what has microsoft done to be a technological leader i posted this question before but i got nary a reply i make the challenge now to anyone who can come up with something especially microsoft employees i get no response this time i guess it pretty much assures me that there is none which is what i suspect anyway really when you come down to it who cares i just hope ms keeps doing what they do best getting usable productive software to the masses thx dave l
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re dos novell netware in article rre d d usenet ins cwru edu cu cleveland freenet edu mahbub anam writes i friend of mine installed dos at work and is hooked up to a novell network running netware v the problem he s having is that the doublespace program is using drive h as the swap drive which is confliting with the networks mapped drives is there switch to place the swap drive to someother drive please e mail thanks a bunch mahbub cu cleveland freenet edu determine the last dblspace drive required and set that as lastdrive in your config sys if you are using w ww you might want to go a couple of drives higher to give you some shared drive space reboot and novell will set its first drive one above the lastdrive in config sys you might have to remap some of your novell drives if they were originally mapped to lower drives make sure that the bat file or whatever you are using to log onto novell is set to the correct drive one above the lastdrive setting in the config sys file
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winlogo hi i d like to substitute the exciting win opening logo for our own company logo at boot up time is this a matter of replacing the logo file with our own logo and what format should the company logo be in thanks avdean
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re some info the dos msw meltdown is progressing nicely ajayshah almaak usc edu ajay shah writes the preferred applications development platform according to of the fortune corporations survey by sentry market research survey unix mainframe dos msw development of what in house apps maybe but certainly not apps to be sold on an open market statistics like that are laughable because they may simply mean that there are not enough shrink wrapped usable apps for unix and they have to be developed disproportionately often as compared to the installed unix base t
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina once wrote microsoft is the largest software company on the planet yet i cannot think of even one computing concept that they innovated and brought to market before anyone else xerox parc apple osborne next gnu and others have been pioneers and led the way to the future of computing what has microsoft done to be a technological leader i posted this question before but i got nary a reply i make the challenge now to anyone who can come up with something especially microsoft employees i get no response this time i guess it pretty much assures me that there is none which is what i suspect anyway really when you come down to it who cares i just hope ms keeps doing what they do best getting usable productive software to the masses personally i ll be blasphemous and say that if microsoft keeps doing what it does so well i hope to see much harsher stricter copyright and patent laws for computer algorithms concepts interfaces and other intellectual properties to protect real innovators i d hate to be one who actually does innovate and then have microsoft come in like a huge vulture and use their brute mass development staff marketing etc to get fat off of my innovation i don t have all that much sympathy for apple s complaint against microsoft since they just took the ideas from xerox s pa research center when the federal government forced xerox to disclose their patents over antitrust fears however for other companies and individuals who have a great idea yet get it borrowed by larger corporations who can afford to quickly bring it to market without any licensing from the original innovator i feel much sympathy larry larry weeks those who fight monsters should make sure that dev ecn purdue edu in the process he does not become a monster and when you look long into an abyss the abyss also looks into you friedrich nietszche
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	western digital c driver i know that i ve seen this question asked before but i don t remember seeing any answers so here it is again does any one know of an ftp site where the wd c driver might reside i ve checked cica and i m sure it s not there i m refering to the new version of the driver that came out in i have seen it on c serve but i hesitate to d l meg at bps unless i really have to alternativly is it possible to get paradise or wd to mail me the new drivers or don t they do that finally is it even worth the hassle of getting these things or is there not much improvement over my version thanks for the info peter peter st wecker n yrj internet pswecker med unc edu uucp pswecker uncmed uucp dept of physiology univ of north carolina chapel hill nc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how to change an icon for a program in windows suppose you want to change the particular icon for a program in windows such as the ms dos one would someone let me know how you can do this thanks a million chad toelle toelle evansville edu s st philip rd or mt vernon in uunet evansville edu toelle
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	required file format of word for ms window file doc hi i am trying to develop a utility to view word for window file but to do that i need to know the format of the doc word for window file format files can anybody tell me what is the format of doc file or direct me where can i get it or is it proprietory format your help is greatly appriciated thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wanted a tt font creator package free i m looking for a way to get our company logo onto documents and figure the easiest way is to put it into a font are there any public domain programs that can do this is there any shareware that will do this any help is appreciated paul paul wilson pwilson gandalf ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu mc duke edu kurt bollacker writes from kdb sunbar mc duke edu mc duke edu kurt bollacker subject challenge to microsoft supporters date apr gmt microsoft is the largest software company on the planet yet i cannot think of even one computing concept that they innovated and brought to market before anyone else xerox parc apple osborne next gnu and others have been pioneers and led the way to the future of computing what has microsoft done to be a technological leader i posted this question before but i got nary a reply i make the challenge now to anyone who can come up with something especially microsoft employees i get no response this time i guess it pretty much assures me that there is none which is what i suspect anyway kurt d bollacker duke university medical center kdb sunbar mc duke edu durham nc they invented the how to make money on others ideas they made money they weren t in the air at the wrong time admit it billg is a damn smart guy how many out there can make money on almost useless products useless even if you look at the time dos were written it stinked already then if i could choose one marketing guy in the world i think i would choose him he s so good that almost everyone hates him but they still use his stuff thomasez i m not perfect but i m perfect for you shavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalessha vethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavet hewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavebillgatesshavethewhalesshavethew halesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhal esshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhaless
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re vesa driver for ibm xga in gmichael vmd cso uiuc edu gmichael vmd cso uiuc edu gary r michael writes can anyone tell me where to find a standard vesa display driver that will support the on the motherboard xga video of a mz dx ibm model lf i need to use x and higher resolutions under both windows and ms dos minimum colors at highest resolution with k colors needed at x the ibm xga svga vesa driver is on the reference diskette available from the ibm bbs it s also on compu erve or you can bang on your sales rep to get you a later version dick kaul my opinions only not official ibm positions etc ibm xga development they d make me wear a suit if i were to speak for ibm boca raton fl the use of unnecessary violence in the apprehension kaul vnet ibm com of the blues brothers has been approved
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows on line review uploaded i have uploaded the windows on line review shareware edition to ftp cica indiana edu as pub pc win uploads wolrs zip it is an on line magazine which contains reviews of some shareware products i grabbed it from the windows on line bbs greg reinacker x ncr microelectronic products division voiceplus danfield court greg reinacker ftcollinsco ncr com fort collins co
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re how redirect print manager to file in hpcc corp hp com reed hpcc corp hp com perry reed writes hpcc comp os ms windows misc u cc nctu edu tw by swh am apr hello who can tell me where can i find the pd or shareware which can capture windows s output of printer mananger if you are planning on using this on a regular basis conncting the printer to file can become bothersome because windows then asks you for the filename that you want to create i ve found that putting a line in system ini in the ports section with just a path and filename works the only problem is that if you send more than one job the second one deletes the first chris cmj acsu buffalo edu is christopher johnson pgp public key encryption for the masses disclaimer i didn t say that pgp encrypted mail welcome pgp public key pgp public keys toxicwaste mit edu orwell may very well have been correct he just had the year wrong me
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	telnet terminal for windows i m looking for a good terminal program that will connect to tcp ip using windows some basic ms window that is connect to a unix host would be great any suggestions thanks peter kocks kocks chemistry stanford edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters has ms innovated anything really when you come down to it who cares i just hope ms keeps doing what they do best getting usable productive software to the masses lets see what ms products don t have major bugs in them oh but the fifth release the bugs are generally cleared up even if their customers must buy new releases from them that are little more than bug fixes anyone who buys a computer system and then runs ms windows on it is in desperate need of sympathy oh wait ms innovated the plastic housing on the ms mouse didn t they logitech inside personally i ll be blasphemous and say that if microsoft keeps doing what it does so well i hope to see much harsher stricter copyright and patent laws for computer algorithms concepts interfaces and other intellectual properties to protect real innovators i d hate to be one who actually does innovate and then have microsoft come in like a huge vulture and use their brute mass development staff marketing etc to get fat off of my innovation i don t have all that much sympathy for apple s complaint against microsoft since they just took the ideas from xerox s pa research center when the federal government forced xerox to disclose their patents over antitrust fears however for other companies and individuals who have a great idea yet get it borrowed by larger corporations who can afford to quickly bring it to market without any licensing from the original innovator i feel much sympathy larry larry weeks those who fight monsters should make sure that dev ecn purdue edu in the process he does not become a monster and when you look long into an abyss the abyss also looks into you friedrich nietszche you can t even really call it secondary creativity when a company gathers together a bunch of knock off packages and peddles them to neophytes if ms does anything it appears someone has to do it first it appears that ms is finding out that throwing money at technological problems is by no means a guaranteed solution kenton cmu edu os fixes broken windows
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows nt should i upgrade in article rrhe inn p ceres kingston ac uk ee d ceres kingston ac uk steve warner writes hi i am thinking of upgrading to the beta version of windows nt on a sx mhz mb hard disc can someone please give me there opion on such a setup for running nt and is the operating system likely to be better than windows or unix s steve ee d uk ac king ceres i ve been using windows nt tm since the october release and i have to say that the march release is really a big improvement windows nt tm is becomming usable there are a few things to consider before you make the leap though first for me at least is that you cannot get a full speed dos box what i mean is i cannot for instance run falcon or any other resourse intensive program in a dos box it absolutley crawls and my machine is a with a mb hd and mb ram if anyone knows how to get a fast dos box or full screen for that matter please let me know the second thing is there are still not many drivers around for stuff for instance my pas has been demoted to running as a sound blaster which is natively supported nice because mediavision hasn t produced drivers yet your disk should be large enough to keep an mb dos partition and give the rest over to windows nt tm the only thing is whenever you wanted to run windows programs you d have to reboot and log into windows nt tm instead of just typing win windows nt tm does seem to be much more stable than normal windows though it d be a good choice if you have the resources you should really have at least mb ram though one last thing modems work well enough but i have yet to get my fax card to work and i ve never heard of anyone else who did either it s only better than unix because it runs killer software out of the box whereas with unix there isn t the same availablity i guess it comes down to windows nt tm is not yet for the faint of heart it s still a beta but it s a very good beta scott reimert reimert mamacass etdesg trw com standard disclaimer redondo beach ca blah blah blah always store beer in a cool dark place
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows nt und x windows in c ybv wi acsu buffalo edu mongwa acsu buffalo edu kan mongwa writes in article apr mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com fred j mccall writes in apr eurom rhein main de hein eurom rhein main de hein roehrig writes i am not sure whether i am here in the right area but does anybody here know whether windows nt does will include a x windows server so that it can run x window applications remotely no it does not could you add some information to non it does not say for instance your source of information i have a copy it isn t in there microsoft says it will not be in the release version either he just asked if it did or not i told him thanks you re welcome insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re telnet terminal for windows in article apr leland stanford edu kocks chemistry stanford edu peter kocks writes i m looking for a good terminal program that will connect to tcp ip using windows some basic ms window that is connect to a unix host would be great any suggestions take a look at winqvt net the latest version is qvt net it comes in versions that are direct to packet driver as well as a pc nfs version it is priced quite low registration student registration and is a nice package comes complete with vt terminal emulation ftp pop client lpr and nntp client you can ftp it from biochemistry bioc cwru edu pub qvtnet qvtnet zip it was also uploaded to ftp cica indiana edu recently ashok ashok aiyar mail ashok biochemistry cwru edu department of biochemistry tel cwru school of medicine cleveland ohio fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows zip unzip pwb aerg canberra edu au paul blackman writes in article rl b h c sol deakin oz au russ deakin oz au russ sharp writes we are using pkzip v and i am interested to hear from people who have used one of the many windows programs that call these which ones are available and does any one stand out amongst the rest is there a full windows version that does not call the dos pkzip pkunzip commands yes russ there is quinzip is a windows version but i don t think it handles all the functions available in the dos version the problem is that quinzip is very very slow so i think that winzip is still the best choice to use pkzip in windows denis simard montreal simardde ere umontreal ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re help with changing startup logo in a previous article louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis wrote in article aa f fidonet org c doelle p f n z fidonet org c doelle writes hello brad monday april brad smalling wrote to crosspost all bs since i don t know your setup bs copy b win cnf vgalogo lgo vgalogo rle win com bs i grabbed this from supercharging windows by judd robbins great book bs this is also how you can put your own logo into the windows startup now another thing this is from the windows faq your file has to be less than k at least that s what the faq says but mine wont work for more than about maybe they mend k i don t know com files are limited to a total size of kb thus win cfn plus vgalogo log plus your rle file must be less than kb thus your rle file should be around kb rob any resemblance between the above views and rob those of my faculty advisor my terminal or mohns the view out my window are purely coinci dental richard traina may or may not rmohns vax support said views but probably doesn t clarku edu want clarkies to think about them
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re more cool bmp files adair atldbs dbsoftware com owen adair writes in article apr dlss james dlss james cummings writes newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path atldbs uupsi psinntp uunet gatech howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net convex seas smu edu void dalnet dlss james from james dlss james cummings subject re more cool bmp files message id apr dlss organization redrock development references apr gmuvax gmu edu distribution usa date tue apr gmt lines in article apr gmuvax gmu edu rwang gmuvax gmu edu john wang writes hi everybody i guess my subject has said it all it is getting boring looking at those same old bmp files that came with windows so i am wondering if there is any body has some beautiful bmp file i can share or maybe somebody can tell me some ftp site for some bmp files like some scenery files some animals files etc i used to have some unfortunately i delete them all anyway could me give me some help please in response to a different kinda wallpaper here s what i use i think the original gif whatever was called not real the artist name and logo is in the lower right corner you will need vga i think and i have this sized for x color screens use this in your windows directory and do not tile it hope you enjoy try this one on for size i d rather not post her name but if you email me i ll tell you who she is enjoy dave bushong wang laboratories inc amateur radio callsign kz o project leader recognition products kz o n ary noca ca na internet dbushong wang com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re some info the dos msw meltdown is progressing nicely in apr bert eecs uic edu zmola bert eecs uic edu carl zmola writes sombody s data is wrong since mac os finder systerm or whatever you want to call it doesn t appear in the first survey i tend to doubt their results more just because sombody wrote it doesn t mean its correct note that the two tables don t talk about the same population one is fortune companies favoring the platform as their primary application platform the other is sales to everyone not just fortune fortune companies don t do a lot of development with the mac as their top platform i would expect that that would explain the discrepancy insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re question on eisa video board performance in apr hubcap clemson edu charlea eng clemson edu charles allen writes from article c ubg k w world std com by cfw world std com christopher f wroten i have an eisa machine and i just do not understand why most eisa video cards only match the performance of their isa counterparts for instance the eisa orchid pro designer iis e is only about as fast as the isa diamond speedstar plus which isn t what i would call fast i don t understand why eisa video cards aren t as a group on the same level of performance as local bus cards given that eisa video cards have a bit bus to move data around instead of isa s bits good question answer the eisa bus does move bits rather than isa s but it still moves it at about the speed as the isa bus i think that s either or mhz the local bus designs also move bits like the eisa but they move the data at the cpu speed up to mhz so on a mhz cpu the local bus is moving bit data at mhz and the eisa is moving bit data at or mhz so the local bus should be to times faster than eisa on a mhz cpu eisa should be about two maybe times as fast as isa i would expect the eisa board to be more than twice as fast as the isa board not only are you moving data on a path twice as wide at least but there is a difference in the number of clocks required for bus transactions between the two busses most isa boards require multiple clocks per bus transaction typically this is around eisa boards are suppose to be able to burst at a rate so i would expect performance to be x x that of an isa card so i guess for me the question is unanswered still i would expect him to be able to see a x speed difference and he apparently does not insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re emm and windows in article ardie ux cso uiuc edu ardie ux cso uiuc edu ardie mack writes on my pc i almost exclusively run windows the only dos based application i have is procommplus in my config sys i have emm loaded with the option noems no expanded memory following a thread in one of the comp newsgroups i read that it was no necessary to have emm loaded indeed in the manual it says that emm is used to get expanded memory out of extended memory since i have the noems option it seems to me that the emm device is useless in my case should i use emm or should i remove it from my config sys thanks for your help eric emm noems enables the system to use the upper memory between and that s a good place for device drivers dos kernal etc keep it in well i thought that highmem sys would do that too i just took out emm of my config sys and i m still loading my other drivers high mouse vga shadow bios dos key etc i haven t checked mem c but i believe i have managed to load them high ie between kb and kb also ever since i took out emm windows loads slightly faster i get about extra meg of freemem in windows i m running enhanced with meg ram meg swap and i got rid of my ctrl alt del reboot problem before the computer would not reboot using ctrl alt del after exiting windows i would really like to keep emm out of my config sys anybody else have info on this eric
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re why are our desktop fonts changing in article bc b jc uacsc albany edu jc uacsc albany edu writes one of our users is having an unusual problem if she does an alt tab to a full screen dos program when she goes back to windows her desktop fonts have changed if she goes back to a full screen dos program and then goes back to windows the font has changed back to its default font it s not a major problem everything works and the font is legible but it is annoying does anyone have any idea why this happens by the way she has a dec d lp machine if it s any consolation i had a similar problem as i recall if i exited from a dos session while in full screen mode the menu titles had changed to a scrambled version of the icon title font or something like that it only started happening after i used icontitlefacename in win ini to change the desktop font to arial so i stopped exiting from dos sessions while in full screen mode my mac used to do something similar aren t computers weird mark hadfield hadfield wao greta cri nz niwa oceanographic taihoro nukurangi evans bay rd greta point telephone po box kilbirnie fax wellington new zealand
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters kenton shaver ks l andrew cmu edu writes lets see what ms products don t have major bugs in them oh but the fifth release the bugs are generally cleared up even if their generally the second or third major release usually takes care of it my advice based on plenty of personal experience is to never buy the first version of anything from microsoft this includes major version number upgrades from previous releases such as microsoft c always wait at least for the a upgrade or slipstream upgrade if you re going to buy it san francisco is like granola take away the fruits and the nuts and all you have left are the flakes
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article apr samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes microsoft is the largest software company on the planet yet i cannot think of even one computing concept that they innovated and brought to market before anyone else xerox parc apple osborne next gnu and others have been pioneers and led the way to the future of computing what has microsoft done to be a technological leader i posted this question before but i got nary a reply i make the challenge now to anyone who can come up with something especially microsoft employees i get no response this time i guess it pretty much assures me that there is none which is what i suspect anyway really when you come down to it who cares i just hope ms keeps doing what they do best getting usable productive software to the masses thx dave l if you think that windows is useable you must not use it much windows version of crash protection is wearing a helmet while computing the arir air bag is an expensive add on brett brett d sherron ferrell email bferrell uceng uc edu u of cincy catch the cats college of engineering if you can friends don t let friends do windows wittism of th week i think that it s wrong to believe in an ism you should believe in yourself ferrish bueller
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re please do not post bitmaps though i downloaded some of the posted bitmaps myself the original poster is quite right as an alternative try posting them at comp binaries ms windows and just letting us know a good idea is to post the article number here peace micke pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make a ms windows grp file reflect a hd directory well i ain t always right but i ve never been wrong gd
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re leaking memory resources in in article c aw h v csn org richardf teal csn org iriemon writes dmittleman bpavms bpa arizona edu daniel mittleman writes i am running win with ndw on a sx with meg of memory and a meg perm swap file and am getting exceedingly frustrated that my applications are not giving back system resources when i close them i ve noticed this also the way it was explained to me is that windows does not clear the upper memory blocks after a program is done anyone out there know if this is why there was a post about something similar a while back it seems windows does not take it upon itself to free up any sys resources an applllication is using when that application is done that job is left entirely to the application that is the application has to clean up after itself when it quits anyone out there know if there is a utility for windows which will clean up sys resources when an application quits mother zip peace mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make a ms windows grp file reflect a hd directory well i ain t always right but i ve never been wrong gd
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re help with changing startup logo there has been a long running discussion over changing the startup logo for windows for a few weeks here while all the copy methods are great haven t seen any mention of a program that will do it for you well i found one on cica called winlogo can t remember where unfortuantely and it seems to work real well even comes with a couple example rle files what i d really like though is a way to create rle files myself specifically the rle format mentioned in the winlogo readme file can anyone point me in the direction of such a beast with a real directory path all the ones i ve seen mentioned didn t pan out e mail un x oddjob oz plymouth edu vms andys psc plymouth edu disclaimer any end user software that provides no avenue for user of the week modification or programmability is not user friendly
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	print to file how do i print the file later here s the situation at home i have ms word for windows but no printer at work i have windows a postscript printer but not ms word so i configure my machine at home to use a postscript printer and use the print to file option which produces a nice postscript file which i then bring to work my question how do i print this postscript file through the print manager at work if for example i select print from the file manager it treats the postscript as a text file and gives me several pages of postscript gibberish i know that i can open a dos window and do copy file ps com which does work but seems not to multitask very well other applications run rather slowly and often pause for s of seconds there ought to be a way of passing the postscript file to the print manager but if there is i can t find any mention of it in the documentation anyone know how to do this michael clase memorial university of newfoundland mclase riemann math mun ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article c bgzv mk uceng uc edu bferrell ant occ uc edu brett ferrell writes in article apr samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes microsoft is the largest software company on the planet yet i cannot think of even one computing concept that they innovated and brought to market before anyone else xerox parc apple osborne next gnu and others have been pioneers and led the way to the future of computing what has microsoft done to be a technological leader i posted this question before but i got nary a reply i make the challenge now to anyone who can come up with something especially microsoft employees i get no response this time i guess it pretty much assures me that there is none which is what i suspect anyway really when you come down to it who cares i just hope ms keeps doing what they do best getting usable productive software to the masses thx dave l if you think that windows is useable you must not use it much windows version of crash protection is wearing a helmet while computing the arir air bag is an expensive add on brett ladies gentlemen please keep this discussion in comp os ms windows advocacy where it belongs thank you john a grant jagrant emr emr ca airborne geophysics geological survey of canada ottawa john a grant jagrant emr emr ca airborne geophysics geological survey of canada ottawa
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re emm and windows from article ardie ux cso uiuc edu by ardie ux cso uiuc edu ardie mack on my pc i almost exclusively run windows the only dos based application i have is procommplus in my config sys i have emm loaded with the option noems no expanded memory following a thread in one of the comp newsgroups i read that it was no necessary to have emm loaded indeed emm noems enables the system to use the upper memory between and that s a good place for device drivers dos kernal etc keep it in emm is not reqired to load the dos kernal high or else you couldn t do it on a in a mail message i recommended that he remove it since he only runs procomplus frequently in dos and i suspect emm will slow down windows charles a cballen clemson edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re leaking memory resources in here s an interesting table showing how much resources an application uses and how much it gives back on shut down this is take from windows user may issue application min resource use resource not returned gdi user gdi user winsleuth gold v word for windows v b lotus v arts and leters v powerpoint v corel draw v micro designer v crosstalk v excel v a hijacck v image in color pro picture publisher v powerleads executive ed v adobe type manager v na na skylight v the numbers are in percentage and are in a decreasing order what does this table tells you if you frequently start and exit a program that doesn t give back all of it s resources then you continually lose these resouces therefore only open these programs up once and leave them open btw maybe people can add to this list so we know what application to watch out for later doug
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how to respond to wm lbuttondblclk i m using bc s objectwindows trying to resond to the left button double click message wm lbuttondblclk in a combo box my codes look like class mycombobox public tcombobox public mycombobox ptwindowsobject aparent int resourceid word atextlen tcombobox aparent resourceid atextlen virtual void wmlbuttondblclk rtmessage msg wm first wm lbuttondblclk void mycombobox wmlbuttondblclk rtmessage msg responding to the message selecting the item in the list box anything wrong with my program any help would be appreciated jun to talk to the lord with ps through ms windows
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re how to change an icon for a program in windows in article apr uenics evansville edu toelle uenics evansville edu chad toelle writes suppose you want to change the particular icon for a program in windows such as the ms dos one would someone let me know how you can do this it depends on wether you are going to replace this with an icon that comes standard with windows or with an icon from some other icon manager well if it is one of those that comes with windows just highlight the item by clicking once on it click on file and then on properties you should see a box which says change icon click on it you are going to be presented with some icons sometimes just one if you don t like any of those presented click on the browse box and look for the file moricons dll select it browse through the icons presented and just double click on your desired icon if you want to replace it with an icon from some other icon manager say iconpower for instance open the icon manager at the bottom of your screen where it will not block the application icon you wish to replace when you have found your desired icon click on it once and while holding the mouse button down pull this icon over the one you wish to change and thats it regards kan mongwa mongwa acsu buffalo edu state univeristy bitnet v wxkp ubvms humpty dumpty of new york buffalo c wxkp ubvm
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re leaking memory resources in dmittleman bpavms bpa arizona edu daniel mittleman writes this may be an faq if so please direct me to the known answer but i am getting frustrated and looking for help i am running win with ndw on a sx with meg of memory and a meg perm swap file and am getting exceedingly frustrated that my applications are not giving back system resources when i close them many lines deleted danny daniel david mittleman danny arizona edu danny while working on my shareware toolbar i found myself eating resources and a very wise person pointed me to the sdk and specifically the debug kernel once you have all the sdk stuff installed this also comes with vc you run n d which does a normal to debug swap the debug kernel runs c o n s i d e r a b l y slower but you then execute the command dbwin and let it report to you what is going on you are going to find out a lot more about your apps than you cared to and possibly about other peoples apps is that opa i m sorry if this doesn t make sense repost or e mail me dave dave campbell at wynapse wynapse wynapse indirect com the shareware custom control source
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	looking for organizer looking for organizer program for windows currently have lotus organizer not bad but looking for better should have a calender scheduler should have a to do list nice additions address phone book diary please any suggestions shareware public or copyrighted please email sthong eniac seas upenn edu steven hong email address sthong eniac seas upenn edu university of pennsylvania engineering class of
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re leaking memory resources in in article apr seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes in article c aw h v csn org richardf teal csn org iriemon writes dmittleman bpavms bpa arizona edu daniel mittleman writes i am running win with ndw on a sx with meg of memory and a meg perm swap file and am getting exceedingly frustrated that my applications are not giving back system resources when i close them i ve noticed this also the way it was explained to me is that windows does not clear the upper memory blocks after a program is done anyone out there know if this is why there was a post about something similar a while back it seems windows does not take it upon itself to free up any sys resources an applllication is using when that application is done that job is left entirely to the application that is the application has to clean up after itself when it quits anyone out there know if there is a utility for windows which will clean up sys resources when an application quits mother zip peace mickey it could also be that your shell is hogging the resources for example open the apps with data files that cause resulting low system resources with ndw x as shell then do the same with program manager and see if it s the shell or the apps ted
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wfworkgroups server goes deaf has anyone else observed this behaviour and if so what have you done to cure it one workstation in a wfw network goes deaf to any form of communication from other workstations until it goes out on the network itself from then on other workstatons can interact with it until some time later when it goes deaf again the workstation is set up to share its discs etc the machine is a dx mb ram with diamond stealth video it behaves this way with a variety of bit network adapters including a smc elite it also behaves the same way if i use the windows vga driver rather than the diamond drivers
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows and ati ultra mach chip sizing question i have just upgraded from a trident tvga to an ati graphics ultra the old mach chip i am quite pleased with the performance so far but have one problem when using windows in x i have noticed that the tile bars and scroll bars are significantly larger than they were when i was using the trident card is there a setting in my ini files that i can change to make these smaller i could not find the faq for this list mike mdtancsa watarts uwaterloo ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hp laser jet l and windows has anybody had a chance to find out how the new hp laser jet l behaves with windows daniel royer
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	roman bmp no please don t post uuencoded bitmaps here if you want to do so put them in the alt binaries areas these files are very large and may crash some users newsfeeds it s also a waste of band width also we all know how to convert gif to bmp with many programs so it d really not worth posting all of these bmp files thanks kirk membry our age is the age of industry rutgers viamar kmembry alexander rodchenko
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help needed w dos apps and windows since loading windows two of my dos applications have been acting strangely it appears that font changes and page orientation changes so far are not being recognized in wordperfect dos and quattropro dos another dos application does accept font and page orientation changes so i don t think the problem is with the printer i reloaded quattropro and these changes are still not accepted whether launching from windows or the dos prompt does anyone have any suggestions as to where to look or how to correct this problem i ve ordered quattropro for windows but need a landscape application printed immediately please e mail thanks in advance sue bittner internet nigs cmuvm csv cmich edu central michigan university bitnet nigs cmuvm mt pleasant mi
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters stuff deleted about microsoft bferrell ant occ uc edu brett ferrell writes if you think that windows is useable you must not use it much windows version of crash protection is wearing a helmet while computing the arir air bag is an expensive add on brett you must of read too many os advertisements crash protection is such a marketing gimick it isn t funny out of months of using windows on my new machine i ve only had it crash once and i don t have a run of the mill configuration microsoft is not a leader in innovation but they certainly know how to build a better mousetrap now what s wrong with that larry ludes ludwig it s always taken me twice to get clemson university compsci undergrad it right you never heard of the ludes hubcap clemson edu apple i ludes clemson clemson edu steve jobs
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re roman bmp in response to the requests for cool bitmaps i am posting one hello cliff many people on the internet like us have to pay for every byte of data passed through subscribed news groups bitmaps are large bitmaps cost us a lot of money there are special news groups for bitmaps because of this we don t subscribe to them put you bitmaps in the right place read one of the faq guides in the newuser groups and it will tell you all about bitmaps and the thousands of establishments like mine that you have just cost money some of them have very limited budgets go away p s this is a flame p p s you distribution of usa didn t work kenb ken blackler kb jet uk fusion jet joint undertaking abingdon energy for the oxfordshire england ox ea far future disclaimer please note that the above is a personal view and should not be construed as an official comment from the jet project
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	need help with wordperfect for windows i m trying to install wordperfect for windows on my computer i m running a sx w meg ram and a meg virtual mem setting for windows i keep getting errors when i try to run wp it tells me that i don t have enough memory or disk space since i have megs free on the hd i m assuming that i don t have enough memory can anyone tell me what it takes to run this beast thanks stealth dave destill mtu edu if you are caught using this address internet will deny any responsibility of its use this e mail will self destruct in seconds
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re some info the dos msw meltdown is progressing nicely in article messinac b zl iho netcom com messina netcom com tony porczyk writes ajayshah almaak usc edu ajay shah writes the preferred applications development platform according to of the fortune corporations survey by sentry market research survey unix mainframe dos msw development of what in house apps maybe but certainly not apps to be sold on an open market statistics like that are laughable because they may simply mean that there are not enough shrink wrapped usable apps for unix and they have to be developed disproportionately often as compared to the installed unix base t actually you might be surprised to find that not everyone who develops mainstream dos and windows apps develops them under dos or windows pc week recently printed a rumor that microsoft s excel development group does its development under os another trade rag did an article recently about a group doing windows development on sun sparcstations with softpc to test out their work sco unix is and has been a reasonably popular development platform for dos windows and even os apps dos and windows are simply not robust or stable enough for development work imho and apparently others agree marc fraioli mfraioli grebyn com so i m a minimalist
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article may hubcap clemson edu ludes hubcap clemson edu larry ludes ludwig writes stuff deleted about microsoft bferrell ant occ uc edu brett ferrell writes if you think that windows is useable you must not use it much windows version of crash protection is wearing a helmet while computing the arir air bag is an expensive add on brett you must of read too many os advertisements crash protection is such a marketing gimick it isn t funny out of months of using windows on my new machine i ve only had it crash once and i don t have a run of the mill configuration microsoft is not a leader in innovation but they certainly know how to build a better mousetrap now what s wrong with that larry ludes ludwig it s always taken me twice to get clemson university compsci undergrad it right you never heard of the ludes hubcap clemson edu apple i ludes clemson clemson edu steve jobs it does sound funny i will admit but for me it is true windows crashed on all of the time and from what i have read in pc mag this is not the exception os gives each windows app a vdm and they can t touch each other or generally anything they aren t supposed to have if windows works for you then great maybe this is why some people don t see why os is the os of choice if windows doesn t crash on you and you don t mind waiting on each task and not being able to adress your memory better than dos some of the key reasons for using os are gone i probably would still use it but it would be more of an even fight brett brett d sherron ferrell email bferrell uceng uc edu u of cincy catch the cats college of engineering if you can friends don t let friends do windows wittism of th week i think that it s wrong to believe in an ism you should believe in yourself ferrish bueller
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters ludes hubcap clemson edu larry ludes ludwig writes stuff deleted about microsoft bferrell ant occ uc edu brett ferrell writes if you think that windows is useable you must not use it much windows version of crash protection is wearing a helmet while computing the arir air bag is an expensive add on brett you must of read too many os advertisements crash protection is such a marketing gimick it isn t funny out of months of using windows on my new machine i ve only had it crash once and i don t have a run of the mill configuration wow what did you use it for single tasked word processing i have files loaded right now and a mb virtual machine mb of ram my friend down the street gripes that he can t even format a floppy in the background many unix people love os because they are used to multi tasking systems microsoft is not a leader in innovation but they certainly know how to build a better mousetrap now what s wrong with that too bad they hold a gun to the mouse piper while they throw mice at their new trap trying to get it to work kenton cmu edu os fixes broken windows
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re what does the bmp format mean in article robertsa unix tcd ie robertsa unix tcd ie andrew l roberts writes what exactly does the windows bitmap format look like i mean how is the data stored width height no of colours bitmap data i couldn t find anything in ths user manual is there any other reference material which would give me this information from thomas sunshine kodak com thomas kinsman newsgroups comp os ms windows programmer misc alt binaries pictures utilities subject dib bmp creation guide as requested keywords dib bmp bitmaps file formats message id dec kodak kodak com date dec gmt sender news kodak kodak com organization precambiran electronics rochester ny lines xref cradle titech comp os ms windows programmer misc guide to creation of dib images thomas b kinsman precambrian electronics falstaff rd rochester ny thomask kodak com copyright march abstract the format of images created for use by ms windows applications is documented in the ms windows programmer s reference guide this guide is intended as a clearify some wording of the specifications and to put forth a recommendation among the various alternatives please send updates corrections suggestions and revisions to me please thank me for writing this on my own time by keeping my name with the document thank you for your respect this document copyright by thomas b kinsman if desired a postscript version of this document is available this information is free you get more than what you pay for don t sue me if i m wrong overview the dib image file format is intended to be a device independent bitmap file format what microsoft means by device independent is unclear to me four pixel resolutions are supported bit bit bit and bit pixels these images were intended for use on dos ibm or little endian systems if you are creating them on another architecture you will have to byte swap all short and long integer values by convention dib images end in the extension bmp this is because march they are a super set of earlier bitmap image files consequently you will sometimes hear dib files referred to as bmp files since dib images files are a super set there are three flavors of dib images o dos dib images these are the recommended convention and the form which i will describe how to create they are intended for applications running under ms windows in a dos environment o os dib images my understanding is that these are the flavor of dib images that were used by the presentation manager o old style bitmap images march differences between flavors the dos dib images consist of a bitmapfileheader file header which identifies the file as a dib file this header also gives the total size of the image file and the offset to the image data a bitmapinfoheader image header which specifies the image attributes an optional palette of colors used by the image if it exists this may contain or entries each entry is a windows rgbquad structure the image data itself the os dib images consist of the same bitmapfileheader file header which identifies the file as a dib file this header also gives the total size of the image file and the offset to the image data a bitmapcoreheader image header which specifies the image attributes an optional palette of colors used by the image again if this exists it may contain or entries each entry is a windows rgbtriple structure the image data itself the old style image bitmap consists of either a bitmapinfoheader or a bitmapcoreheader which header type is determined by the first long integer dword value an optional color palette this palette may be composed of either windows rgbquad structures if the header was a bitmapinfoheader or windows rgbtriple structures if the header was a bitmapcoreheader the image data itself creating dib image files creating a dos dib image file consists of several straight forward steps the headers need to be created and then written to the file these header structures are defined in the ms windows windows h include file palette information needs to be stored for images that are not bit images the five general steps are filling in the bitmapfileheader and the bitmapinfoheader structures the basic image information if the image is a bit bit or an bit image creating the color palette of rgbquads calculating the total file size and putting this information in march the bfsize field of the bitmapfileheader calculating the offset to the image data from the start of the file and putting this in the bfoffbits field of the bitmapfileheader writing to the file the bitmapfileheader the bitmapinfoheader the color palette and the image data in that order the following sections describe structures in terms of microsoft c type defined keywords the following table describes these keywords for those not familiar with microsoft c type defined keywords in microsoft c typedef meaning byte unsigned character word two byte unsigned integer dword four byte unsigned integer march the bitmapfileheader this structure is defined in windows h as typedef struct tagbitmapfileheader word bftype dword bfsize word bfreserved word bfreserved dword bfoffbits bitmapfileheader the bftype field is the two ascii characters b and m this serves to identify the file as a dib image file on an intel byte ordered machine ibm or a compatible this constant can be formed in c as the quantity m b x d on an intel system the bfsize field is the total size of the file for our purposes this field is equal to the size of the bitmapfileheader plus the size of the bitmapinfoheader plus the number of entries in the color palette times the size of a rgbquad plus the number of bytes of image data if the image data is being written out in an uncompressed form this value can be calculated ahead of time otherwise this field needs to be filled in later both the bfreserved and the bfreserved fields are always set to zero the bfoffbits field is set to the offset to the start of the image data from the start of the file for our purposes this field should be set to the size of the bitmapfileheader plus the size of the bitmapinfoheader plus the number of entries in the color palette times the size of a rgbquad this works out because the image data is written write after the color palette if one exists march the bitmapinfoheader this structure is defined in windows h as typedef struct tagbitmapinfoheader dword bisize dword biwidth dword biheight word biplanes word bibitcount dword bicompression dword bisizeimage dword bixpelspermeter dword biypelspermeter dword biclrused dword biclrimportant bitmapinfoheader the bisize field is set to the size of the bitmapinfoheader structure itself when reading the image file this value is what is used to determine that the image contains a bitmapinfoheader and not a bitmapcoreheader the biwidth field is the width of the image in image pixels the biheight field is the height of the image in image lines the biplanes field should always be set to this data is written out as if there was one color plane the bibitcount field is the bit depth of the image this must be either or depending on the bit depth of the image data the bicompression field tells how the image data is compressed if it is compressed dib images support two forms of run length encoding however i have never seen any images which use it and don t know yet how it works set this field to zero long zero or l to indicate that the data is not compressed all subsequent fields of the bitmapinfoheader structure may be set to zero a requirement of the interpretting software that it be able to compute these fields as necessary from the previous information the field which you might want to explicitly specify might be biclrused for bit and bit images this field indicates that not all of the possible color entries are used and that the image contains biclrused colors if you are using only colors with an bit image then you may only want to save of the possible palette entries generally set this field to zero march color palettes each entry of a color palette is a rgbquad structure the rgbquad structure is defined in the windows h include file as typedef struct tagrgbquad byte rgbblue byte rgbgreen byte rgbred byte rgbreserved rgbquad the rgbreserved field is always zero for each color used the amount of blue green and red are filled into the structure and the structure is written to the file a value of zero in the rgbblue rgbgreen or rgbred fields indicates that that particular component does not contribute to the color composition a value of in any of these fields indicates that the component contributes fully to the color composition image data there are three surprises about the ordering of image data in dib image file the creator of this format was determined to be creative and certainly was within the image data each line written out is padded to the next four byte quantity so if you had an bit image which was only one pixel wide you still have to write out four bytes for every image line the number of bytes per line can be calculated as bytes per line width in pix bit depth or in terms of the fields of the bitmapinfoheader structure bytes per line biwidth bibitcount when writing out your image data you must write it out bottom line first the bottom line of the image as you would look at it on the screen is the first line of image data in the file for bit bit and bit images information is written as you would expect one bit images are padded eight pixels to a byte four bit images are padded two pixels to a byte eight bit images are written one pixel per byte twenty four bit images are written three bytes per pixel however for bit images the information must be written out in the order blue green red while most image file formats write data out in march an rgb ordering a dib image file writes the data out in an bgr ordering summary this should provide enough information to create dib images from applications such as scanners or for image exporting routines if you find out any more about dib images please pass the information on to me so that i can modify this document accordingly march thomas b kinsman rochester ny thomas acadia kodak com practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty anon ito takayuki yuki is s u tokyo ac jp senior department of infomation science faculty of science university of tokyo japan
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	telemate windows help i have a very funny yet confusing problem i am using telemate within win everytime i close dos box my telemate operation get affected normally i am doing file transfer however if i open close windows program everything seems running smoothly my file transfer operation get affected only if i close dos box can somebody please gimme some pointers on what is going on and how to fix it thanks in advance glenn jayaputera
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	changing windows fonts a friend of mine uses windows to do most of her work unfortunately she has very bad eyesight and we haven t been able to figure out how to change the default font used by the system and application menus or the font used by the help program what use is hypertext if you can t read it to make it legible to her if anyone knows how to increase the size of these fonts of any software package that makes windows more accessible to visually handicapped people please let me know thanks dan
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article c d m uceng uc edu bferrell ant occ uc edu brett ferrell writes in article may hubcap clemson edu ludes hubcap clemson edu larry ludes ludwig writes munch you must of read too many os advertisements crash protection is such a marketing gimick it isn t funny out of months of using windows on my new machine i ve only had it crash once and i don t have a run of the mill configuration munch following is reformatted it does sound funny i will admit but for me it is true windows crashed on all of the time and from what i have read in pc mag this is not the exception i d say that the massive crash problems are exceedingly rare windows itself almost never crashes but it can be crashed by an errant application my personal favorite any one of the corel programs on the other hand i have had os crash randomly a number of times mostly just running it s own applications for instance today i discovered a new one while i was downloading with procomm plus for windows running seamless with the standard vga drivers on a run o da mill vga card x i decided that i wanted to edit a copy of a quote that i wanted to add to my finger but since i ve learned not to really trust seamless i fired up a full screen winos session whoops the download finished while winos was loading it had just gotten the pointer up so i hit alt escape to get back t the desktop i have a lot of fonts so loading takes a good long while blam screen trashed procomm hangs up hm well i can sorta see the mouse so i clicked on the minimized winos session and got back my fullscreen windows session but the color were off red and green and yellow and brown instead of blues and greys so i closed this and got back to the desktop now fully restored pp was still sitting window open but it was no longer connected to the com port so i exited it the normal way it told me i was still online and it would hang up though it was already hung up hm well load anothe no bad idea shutdown and reboot ok refresh first now shutdown yes everything is closed hm nothing seems to be happening let s see ah the windows list still comes up ok let s try shutdown again no go huh alright wait seconds to see if it s just running slow hmm still seems to be running os try shutdown again nothing oh well reboot enjoy the checkdisk time in this case a part of the os crashed not only itself but os entirely which isn t even smart enough to tell when it s been compromised i guess in everyday specifically today use os gives each windows app a vdm and they can t touch each other or generally anything they aren t supposed to have that s the idea anyway in truth when a program crashes on os it will bring the system down with it the programs that would just gpf under windows do the same under os but programs that are fine under dos and windows bring os screaming to a halt task protection or no for instance i m still wondering why print preview in a windowed wp dos locks up my system it works fine under dos or even in a dos box under windows admittedly it doesn t crash if i run wp full screen but the first time this bug big me it bit hard if windows works for you then great maybe this is why some people don t see why os is the os of choice if windows doesn t crash on you and you don t mind waiting on each task please explain the only time i wait on anything under windows is when i m copying or formatting a floppy or when printing and even then not long i get to pages dumped to the printman per minute and can still go do things slowly while it s doing this i ve downloaded with pp while printing and not being able to adress your memory better than dos not sure what you mean here os sees megs uses or six of these for it s own use more if you want to count winos windows sees megs uses or more like if you count the disk cache as i am for os for itself if memory efficiency were a big issue pc geos would be the current king of the intel desktop some of the key reasons for using os are gone i probably would still use it but it would be more of an even fight on the other hand i am finally able to say with some confidence that both os and windows have a bit of hardware sensitivity to them for instance the machine i am sitting at runs both fine while the machine next to me constantly locks up under windows but ran os without a hitch once i got it through a crash install on the whole i d say os is a whole lot more sensitive than windows but there are i suppose machines that windows just doesn t like wittism of th week i think that it s wrong to believe in an ism you should believe in yourself ferrish bueller wasn t this ferris bueller there are stupid laws and then there are stupider than normal laws
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	nextstep intel sneak preview reminder phang the philadelphia area nextstep user group will be holding a public sneak preview of nextstep for intel processors where david rittenhouse labs room a rd and walnut southeast corner philadelphia pa when wednesday may th pm to pm nextstep is the bit unix based operating environment which has until now only been available on motorola based next computers in the may th issue of pc magazine called nextstep a hot prospect now next is nearing release of a version of nextstep which will run on based pc s yet is identical to the version in fact nextstep includes the ability to easily compile a program into a single binary which will run on both intel and motorola hardware nextstep for intel processors will be demonstrated on an epson progression computer nextstep is scheduled for release on may at nextworld expo in san francisco the demonstration will be open to the public come one come all if you are interested in seeing the most advanced pc operating system around come on by for a brief summary of what nextstep offers see the may th issue of pc magazine page for more information contact me jonathan hendry phang the philadelphia area nextstep user group jon afs com jonathan w hendry drexel university college of info studies tjhendry queen mcs drexel edu the experience of programming windows vs the experience of programming nextstep is like going to the dentist and having a root canal without anaesthetic vs going to the dentist and having your gums cleaned w some nitrous oxide thrown in for the entertainment side of things bbum stone co jonathan w hendry drexel university college of info studies tjhendry queen mcs drexel edu the experience of programming windows vs the experience of programming nextstep is like going to the dentist and having a root canal without anaesthetic vs going to the dentist and having your gums cleaned w some nitrous oxide thrown in for the entertainment side of things bbum stone co
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in a previous article thomasez dhhalden no thomas lundquist wrote they invented the how to make money on others ideas they made money they weren t in the air at the wrong time hewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavebillgatesshavethewhalesshavethew he doesn t have a beard rob being pointless wondeing if anyone else caught that any resemblance between the above views and rob those of my faculty advisor my terminal or mohns the view out my window are purely coinci dental richard traina may or may not rmohns vax support said views but probably doesn t clarku edu want clarkies to think about them
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re required file format of word for ms window file doc in article cosmosc bcz kee netcom com cosmos netcom com cosmos writes hi i am trying to develop a utility to view word for window file but to do that i need to know the format of the doc word for window file format files can anybody tell me what is the format of doc file or direct me where can i get it or is it proprietory format your help is greatly appriciated thanks the format for word for windows doc files is available from microsoft call their developer support services number sorry don t have it handy and ask for the word for windows binary file format spec warning it is not terribly useful and you will need to do a lot of looking before you can figure out how the stuff is stored general primer word for windows stores its data in two chunks the first chunk is the actual text in the file this is all stored together and has nothing but text and graphics the second chunk is the formatting information for general use to read a word for windows file skip the first bytes of the file its a general header then read the remaining text until you hit binary data matt
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article may wam umd edu rsrodger wam umd edu yamanari writes in article c d m uceng uc edu bferrell ant occ uc edu brett ferrell writes in article may hubcap clemson edu ludes hubcap clemson edu larry ludes ludwig writes and not being able to adress your memory better than dos not sure what you mean here os sees megs uses or six of these for it s own use more if you want to count winos windows sees megs uses or more like if you count the disk cache as i am for os for itself if memory efficiency were a big issue pc geos would be the current king of the intel desktop i assumed he was referring to os s bit flat model addressing while dos and therefore windows use bit segmented addressing as a programmer i agree that segmentation unnecessarily complicates things it s annoying too but when just a windows user i don t think about it much and i doubt many other people think about it or even care when just writing a document calcing a spreadsheet etc it works and they get their work done just a neutral comment it s funny i think how arguments about windows vs os sound so very similar to arguments about atheism vs christianity or something like that it s somehow very personal to people convictions are irrational and there s nothing wrong with that it s just interesting brad smalling jr ee ga tech atlanta ga gt c prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters rsrodger wam umd edu yamanari writes i d say that the massive crash problems are exceedingly rare windows itself almost never crashes but it can be crashed by an errant application my personal favorite any one of the corel programs on the other hand i have had os crash randomly a number of times mostly just running it s own applications i do know that ibm systems the ps slc in particular have absolutely no problem with os never had a random crash while running any of my programs under os in fact i don t remember ever crashing of course i really don t run any os programs just the same bunch of dos and windows stuff that i ve always been running and when i had the slc this is the slc system running dos windows i had only one crash and it was consistent ftp had a tendency to crash whenever i would get large files mb from particularly fast clients dtr s k k sec i figured out the problem was with smartdrv s write buffering if i turned off the write buffer everything would work fine ftp under os has never locked though i can even format floppies to use the most often cited example of the superiority of os for instance i m still wondering why print preview in a windowed wp dos locks up my system yeah i guess i m willing to admit that os is somewhat sensitive to specific hardware wp for dos works perfectly fine on my slc please explain the only time i wait on anything under windows is when i m copying or formatting a floppy or when printing and even then not long i get to pages dumped to the printman per minute and can still go do things slowly while it s doing this i ve downloaded with pp while printing well i save all my personal files to floppy and when i did that under windows a floppy save of a large file hung up the system i also found it quite bothersome to have to continually tweak the tasking options on fractint for dos whenever i wanted to do a fractal computation in the background and not being able to address your memory better than dos not sure what you mean here the idea is that os s dos sessions can see more memory than windows dos sessions i let xpl a shareware calculus program see around kb of free conventional memory which lets me do bigger symbolic manipulations than is possible under straight dos where it would see around kb of conventional ram i also found it really handy for my own dos based programs which without any re writing could now handle larger data sets simulate for more iterations etc of course the point is now moot since the os programs i now write simply never run into memory limitations i never programmed for windows so i don t have much of a comparison here though
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re some info the dos msw meltdown is progressing nicely mfraioli grebyn com marc fraioli writes messina netcom com tony porczyk writes ajayshah almaak usc edu ajay shah writes the preferred applications development platform unix dos msw development of what in house apps maybe but certainly not apps to be sold on an open market statistics like that are laughable actually you might be surprised to find that not everyone who develops mainstream dos and windows apps develops them under dos or windows pc week recently printed a rumor that microsoft s excel development group does its development under os if you believe that i have a nice piece for swamp for you for re development microsoft does even its techpubs under windows another trade rag did an article recently about a group doing windows development on sun sparcstations with softpc to test out their work that wasn t geo works was it dos and windows are simply not robust or stable enough for development work imho and apparently others agree nonsense sorry i make fun of windows all the time but the above is simply a myth tell that to microsoft novell and others who dominate the market t
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	coda music finale and petrucci font problem i ve been using final from coda for some time but suddenly it stopped using my fonts i have a pc with lots of disk space and memory a postscript laser win finale and i recently installed atm i ve been fiddling around with the windows setup for some time and when i needed to do some work with finale things didn t print properly it might and it might not have anything to do with the installation of atm from something to but i don t have the old atm lying around anomore the most annoying problem was that the petrucci font didn t print which is a rather important font i managed to get direct printing to work if i included ownps in the finale section of win ini but compile postscript listing still doesn t work and it s those eps files i need when i look at the eps files generated the only font which appears there is courier i found out that if i manually changed the courier point to petrucci point in the eps file everything worked ok but i d rather avoid that since i have a lot of songs to work with and yes in the special font font names dialog box all the fonts i need are listed with the correct mapping between finale screen and printer fonts finale is obviously aware of the fonts since direct printing of a score works well that is after i included ownps and all my other windows applications print petrucci and the other fonts well has anyone encountered problems like this what is the current version of finale from coda music software i have are the people at coda available on internet or x i d be grateful for all hints and help mats internet mats gar no quikcomm mats gar genor serverp mats garp x g mats s tande o oslo p gr a telemax c no
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how can i make mpeg sound hello i install one wav driver pc speaker then install mpeg phoenix oulu fi pub incoming mpeg mpegexe zip in windows but when i load one mpeg file and make sound type to wav or mpeg it always say error when i load one mpeg file which have wav file wav then select sound type to wav it is normal and no error but i still can t hear sound what should i do fix the sounddrv number in mfw ini thankx for any help internet address u cc nctu edu tw english name erik wang chinese name wang jyh shyang national chiao tung university taiwan r o c
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	why i m not using dos anymore in article apr hubcap clemson edu charlea eng clemson edu writes regarding the horror stories about dos doubledisk and stacker killing hard drives i was wondering if the dos mirror command works on the doubled drive info as well as the normal fat table and partition table if it records the vital doubledisk info then using it daily should go a long way toward protecting yourself against the type of catastrophic failure discussed if it doesn t then shame on microsoft mirror is one of those dos commands that didn t survive the change from dos it s been dropped along with backup join edlin and a couple other crummy old dos commands you can still use the commands if you absolutely have to but they are not included on the distribution disks however in mirror s case i m certain that it does not know anything about doublespaced drives eric eric trepanier internet eric tgm cam org ci grenon o laval quebec h n m everybody has a right to believe in something canada i believe i ll have another beer
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows nt how to get the beta i was just wondering if anyone new how i could get the beta version of windows nt and be part of the beta program thanks gel binkley cs mcgill ca p s please reply by e mail
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	novell and windows i m working at a workstation which is usually attached to a novell network using shell version i think the workstation a was set up to run windows with the network about a year ago needless to say i d like to upgrade it to windows and have it work with the network basically the windows files d be on the local hard drive but several dos applications like word perfect will be on the network i d mainly want windows to access the network drives the network printers and perhaps handle some network functions as well if i could multitask the dos apps whose executables are on the network that d be great but i could live without it eventually i d like to get a few other s in the office working with the network and windows as well however most of the terminals are s which leaves the network pretty much dos bound and i guess that leaves out windows for workgroups and in the future maybe there d be norton desktop but that s gettingahead of myself as you can guess i ve never done anything like this before i ve read through the networks material that came with windows but still i d like to know if anyone out there has any experience in such an area please reply by email i don t scan these newsgroups often thanks for any replies brian rev p k siano revpk cellar org well i ll know right away by the look in her eyes she s lost all illusions and she s worldly wise and i know if i give her a listen she s what i ve been missing what i ve been missing i ll be lost in love and havin some fun with my cynical girl who s got no use for the real world i m looking for a cynical girl marshall crenshaw cynical girl
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re drivers for stealth debrown hubcap clemson edu david e brown writes doug ward writes i recently purchased a diamond stealth video card and received the wrong drivers does anyone know where i can ftp the proper drivers the dstlth file at cica does not work with this video card please respond to doug sun sws uiuc edu thank you doug ward if you want to get them and get them now also the most up to date use the bbs at they may take an hour to download so do it when rates are low yeah i know it costs but locking up your system gets old quick maybe someone has them on the net i ve got the stealth drivers david the number you gave is the borland bbs and darned if i can find any stealth drivers there diamond s bbs is according to the manual i got with my stealth i have had a bunch of trouble using the right drivers that came with the card locking up de syncing etc so i hope you do better than i do dave
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	video benchmarks wanted hi i am trying to compile a chart for windows and dos performance of local bus video card so if you have a dx v and one of the local bus video cards below please email me your winbench and dbench obtainable in ftp wustl edu pub msdos uploads scores please give me winmark score at x x and x x k i will post the chart if enough response if received tseng et w vlb cl vlb s based local bus card ati ultra pro vlb orchid celsius vlb agx based vlb cards do they exist matox mga based video cards thanks all
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	i need help recording of key mousestrokes in windows sorry about confusing subject summary keywords i am a postgrad researcher in esl applied linguistics at edith cowan university in perth western australia i desperately need help i need to record the results of word processing sessions in windows so that i can sit down and replay the results of my research subjects wordprocessing behaviours naturally i can do this with the windows macrorecorder and or other apps in windows but i cannot pause resume i e all i can do is to ctrl break to get out this is useless for a researcher who needs to be able to pause the wordprocessing session he is replaying to make notes annotations and then resume from where he left off i am just about to commence my research for my masters thesis and would be extremely grateful for any assistance if anyone can help could they mail me at johnoliver odin dialix oz au many thanks in advance john oliver
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	postscript to bmp conversion hi all i am working on a project in visual basic ver and i need to show postcript files i am getting from another aplication so because i can t show postscript directly form visual basic at least i don t know how i need a utility to convert them to bmp wmf any help will be appreshieated kobi elimelech messges can be sent to me at kobi asimov hacktic nl
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	need iconized printer utility i am looking for a printer utility which stay in window as an icon and let you drag a file to it to issue the printing
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters hey larry how can you be a comp sci major and never crash a damn computer what does your cs dept teach you or are you just that good of a programmer that not one of your assembly programs have ever downed your machine crash protection is such a marketing gimick it isn t funny out of months of using windows on my new machine i ve only had it crash once and i don t have a run of the mill configuration why do you bother putting up such stupid posts or are you that ignorant bob campbell clarkson university potsdam ny campbers craft clarkson edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re need iconized printer utility in article zhao auvm american edu zhao auvm american edu writes i am looking for a printer utility which stay in window as an icon and let you drag a file to it to issue the printing you have one minimize the print manager and drag a file to it and it will print it you need to associate file extensions with such things as the notepad for it to do this though tony annese claebaur shell portal com or claebaur cup portal com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters yamanari hey isn t it funny how betas have bugs in them hey do me a favor and don t put up stupid posts bob clarkson university potsdam ny campbers craft clarkson edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re replacement for program m in article uupcb idcbbs com les tom idcbbs com les tom writes maw ying yuan wrote from yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu maw ying yuan subject replacement for program manager and file manager message id c g g juj news hawaii edu date thu apr gmt replacements for win s program manager and file manager yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu hi i ve been using plannet crafter s plug in for program manager the best one i ve seen is ceo by sloop software they have a sharware version but the retail version is only it s incredibly complete subfolders to any level choose any icon hot keys drop down menus button bars etc haven t found anything it doesn t do try mailing compuserve com for details tom tom hansen my beard grows to my toes i never wears no tom vpnet chi il us clothes i wraps my hair around my bare and i yam what i yam down the road i goes shel silverstein
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse everyone seems to think that this man s mouse problem is mechanical its dirty i have been having a similar problem with my mouse and it only occurs when ru nning windows and therefore cannot be mechanical in nature i m running a mouse systems compatible mouse on a dx with a trident meg video card and a m experienceing similar jumpiness as well as strange font subsitutions and mous e traces left on screen and windows gpf errors help
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re need iconized printer utility in article c eval unix portal com claebaur shell portal com tony s annese writes in article zhao auvm american edu zhao auvm american edu writes i am looking for a printer utility which stay in window as an icon and let you drag a file to it to issue the printing you have one minimize the print manager and drag a file to it and it will print it you need to associate file extensions with such things as the notepad for it to do this though tony annese claebaur shell portal com or claebaur cup portal com this may work but won t it involve invoking the applications e g if you drag a bmp or txt file to the min print manager icon won t it run notepad and paintbrush before printing if you just want to drag a file txt or bmp to a print server icon with stay at front attributes you need an intelligent print manager drag and drop client like amish print ted
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	off line mail for netnews are there any off line mail readers for the net news in qwk format it would be really helpfull to be able to download the net news from a vax or mainframe and read it off line adam hodge arhodge miavx acs muohio edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re need iconized printer utility in article c ezhn jlq tsoft net tedm tsoft net ted matsumura writes in article c eval unix portal com claebaur shell portal com tony s annese writes you have one minimize the print manager and drag a file to it and it will print it you need to associate file extensions with such things as the notepad for it to do this though this may work but won t it involve invoking the applications e g if you drag a bmp or txt file to the min print manager icon won t it run notepad and paintbrush before printing if you just want to drag a file txt or bmp to a print server icon with stay at front attributes you need an intelligent print manager drag and drop client like amish print yes it invokes the associated application that takes but seconds tony annese claebaur shell portal com or claebaur cup portal com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	problem on dos box from windows this file is compressed i ve started getting a message from windows whenever i try to execute a dos program from windows either thru the program manager or the file manager a message box comes up and says this program or one of its components is compressed use the ms dos expand command to expand the file now i know this is bogus because i can always execute the program from dos when not running windows the program in question is command com yup the basic dos command line shell and the expand command tells me that the file is already expanded all my windows apps work just fine i only get this message when trying to execute a dos program from windows clues anyone thanks christopher wroten cfw world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wordbasic time date variables i m writing a mail management system using word for windows as a front end the user dials up a remote system and downloads a batch of mail as foo txt i ve set up an autoexec macro in winword to load foo txt ok but subsequent invocations of the macro will of course pose file name contention problems what i d really like to do is to create an autoexit macro in winword that would move foo txt to a specified directory rename it using the current date and time and delete the original foo txt in other words foo txt gets renamed as say on may at the user gets a time indexed backup of his mail files and foo txt is freed up for the next packet of mail since my autoexec macro points to it my main question is this how may one rename a file from within a wordbasic macro to include a time date variable in the new filename thanks if you ever reach total enlightenment while drinking a beer i bet it makes beer shoot out of your nose jack handey erich w lantz ewl world std com timberville va dod
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re changing windows fonts in a previous article ellard husc harvard edu daniel ellard says a friend of mine uses windows to do most of her work unfortunately she has very bad eyesight and we haven t been able to figure out how to change the default font used by the system and application menus or the font used by the help program what use is hypertext if you can t read it to make it legible to her if anyone knows how to increase the size of these fonts of any software package that makes windows more accessible to visually handicapped people please let me know thanks dan the may issue of pc computing page has a windows hint and tips for just this thing you have to edit the win ini file and add a couple of lines i tried it and it works i actually made my title bar and iconized text and icon text smaller on my monitor it works well you can select a larger font also you edit the win ini file with a font name in your system directory read the article because i would not want to retype it here in case i type errored and caused your system problems c ya artin this communication is sent by artin university of arizona tucson ak cleveland freenet edu mlinsenb ccit arizona edu mlinsenb arizvms death has been dead for about years follow the king of kings
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	which sound board to buy well i ve come into some money and want to buy cd rom sound board and speakers i have not kept up on any material relating to sound boards and cd rom s because until now i never thought i d have enough money so can you guru s out there point me in the direction of a good package including cd rom sound and speakers and software i suppose or since i don t really need the cd rom right now give me some good ideas for sound boards and speakers those i could really use now i have looked at soundblaster pro which costs about as much as i think i want to spend on a board and i ve looked at the gravis sound board which is about and i don t know the adv disadv of either of these boards right now i want to use it with any games that support sound and to use in windows to utilize sound capabilities there so any concise info on sound boards complete multimedia packages etc would be greatly appreciated if anyone else is interested in this info i would be glad to summarize responses and post and if this is some type of faq please point me in the right direction and don t bother taking up a lot of bandwidth thanks brett brett watson database system administrator kansas supreme court topeka ks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows and ati ultra mach chip sizing question in article c c za j i watserv uwaterloo ca mike tancsa mdtancsa watarts uwaterloo ca writes i have just upgraded from a trident tvga to an ati graphics ultra the old mach chip i am quite pleased with the performance so far but have one problem when using windows in x i have noticed that the tile bars and scroll bars are significantly larger than they were when i was using the trident card is there a setting in my ini files that i can change to make these smaller i could not find the faq for this list mike mdtancsa watarts uwaterloo ca make sure you use the small fonts driver not the large fonts driver check that in your setup that s the only explanation i would find hope this helps gel
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	when will nt be ready when will i be able to call my favorite mail order software shop and buy nt jeff dragovich dragovic cevax ce uiuc edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse in article n bc cunyvm bitnet n bc cunyvm bitnet writes everyone seems to think that this man s mouse problem is mechanical its dirty i have been having a similar problem with my mouse and it only occurs when ru nning windows and therefore cannot be mechanical in nature its my understanding that bus mice are more accurate and stable in general than serial mice if i remember correctly its because of the differences in how the interrupts are handled as well as the fact that the mouse data is received over the computer bus as opposed to a bps serial connection i m running a mouse systems compatible mouse on a dx with a trident meg video card and a m experienceing similar jumpiness as well as strange font subsitutions and mous e traces left on screen and windows gpf errors help is this just a general problem or is it associated with a specific application or group of applications
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re emm and windows hallo ebosco us oracle com wrote on about emm and windows e von ebosco us oracle com mi e name eric bosco e should i use emm or should i remove it from my config sys basically windows prefers extendend memory instead of expanded more work to do for win and if no application desperatly needs ems you should leave emm with a rem in your config sys bye chris
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wordbasic visual basic macros template i am working with visual basic v for windows specifically i am working on an application that generates formatted reports since some of these reports can be rather large my first question is is there a way to increase the size of a list box or text box in visual basic windows beyond the k limit as i have not as yet being optimistic come across a way to get around the above problem i am working on the following approach i am trying to create my own defined template in ms word using the wordbasic macros so that i can open up word from visual basic vb and load this template of mine which will work in the following way it will first open myown ini file created in vb at the time when the user selected the kind of report he weanted and read the section from the ini file and jump to the appropriate code in template which will then open and read a file pertaining to the section it read from the ini file when using the getprofilestring function in wordbasic is there a way to specify change the default ini file which is win ini to myown ini file when using the file input function in wordbasic is there a way to read more than the k at one time any help will be appreciated pgupta magnus acs ohio state edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	recommendation for screen capture program i m looking for some recommendations for screen capture programs a couple of issues ago pc mag listed as editor s choices both conversion artist and hijaak for windows anyone have any experience with those or some others i m trying to get an alpha manual in the next few days and i m not making much progress with the screen shots i m currently using dodot and i m about to burn it and the disks it rode it on it s got a lot of freaky bugs and oversights that are driving me crazy tonight it decided that for any graphic it writes out as a tiff file that s under a certain arbitrary size it will swap the left and right sides of the picture usually it confines itself to not copying things to the clipboard so i have to save and load pix for editing in paintbrush or crashing every hour or so the one nice thing it has though is it s dither option you d think that this would turn colors into dots which it does if you go from say colors to colors but if you go from or colors to b w you can set a threshold level for which colors turn to black and which turn to white for me this is useful because i can turn light grays on buttons to white and the dark grays to black and thereby preserve the d effect on buttons and other parts of the window if you understood my description can you tell me if another less buggy program can do this as well much thanks for any help signature david delgreco what lies behind us and what lies technically a writer before us are tiny matters compared delgreco rahul net to what lies within us oliver wendell holmes david f delgreco delgreco rahul net
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re hercules graphite results tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes has anyone used a hercules graphite adapter it looks good on paper and steve gibson gave it a very good review in infoworld i d love to get a real world impression though how is the speed drivers support rda v monu cc monash edu au a b wuysang writes but the impressive performance of the graphite was not its winmark it was its wintach result esp the paint performance judging from the wintach tests i can hardly imagine that there is a cheat driver for it i received my graphite vl on thursday and i ve had a little bit of experience with it now in general it feels fast although this is the first vlb card that i have tried still the results are impressive with my dx w mb running at x i ve had the following wintach results card wp cad spread paint overall ati graphics ultra ati ultra no aperture hercules graphite vl unfortunately i don t have the numbers here but the ati ultra pro vlb had an overall wintach score of about the ultra pro was nearly as fast in text handling but was blown away in the cad and paint tests as an additional test we hand timed a complex coreldraw slide resize redraw times there was no swapping but i d expect there is a fairly heavy load on the cpu the graphite redraw times averaged about seconds with ati ultra pro at this jives with steve gibson s contention that the isa graphite is faster than an ati up on his complex micrografx draw document so far i m very impressed the drivers look solid and the card flies the installation and utilities are different but comparable to ati s and i didn t have to wait for build for some reliability with hercules software developer special you can get an evaluation copy of the card for just or for the isa version call if you want to give it a try i m a happy customer now tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo ont stick your index fingers into both corners of your mouth now pull up that s how the corrado makes you feel car january
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	opinions wanted fastest win driver for t c yesterday a friend of mine got a new driver for his card that more than doubled the speed naturally besides being a tad jealous same machine different cards it got me thinking what if i am using a slow driver wouldn t that be horrible so netlanders i need samples of your collective experience sic do you proud owners of a trident c video card w mb vram have tried out more than one driver fro ms win which which is the fastest not to be selfish and to give you a motive for responding i promise i am going to collect all the answers and the actual drivers provided u give me a site to get it from or uuencode mail get the winmarks using pc magazine s winbench and post the results here i am interested in svga drivers only plain vga users should run the win driver or this is what i ve heard dont flame me particularly x x and or x x that should cover the majority of svga users well what are you waiting for hit that r or f or whatever all input welcome so are money and sun sparcstations thanx in advance costas malamas georgia institute of technology oit ua oit doesn t pay me enough to share their opinions internet ccastco prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re re challenge to microsoft supporters in article may vax clarku edu rmohns vax clarku edu writes and i would hardly call a command that can delete a tree and a move command as a state of the art wiz bang feature they are damn necessary i have often cursed not being able to have some kind of recursive delete you are missing something with the windows file manager you can ms but i don t want to have to run blasted windows every time i want to delete a tree it is absolutely ludicrous to load a hog like that just to delete some files it would be like requiring a crane to change the tyre on a car wants people to buy windows not dos ms knows dos won t last forever only because its crap which is noones fault but their own they want you to move to windows then later to win and eventually to cairo this way they give you a reason to by deliberately crippling the product surely no oh hold on i guess you re right that certainly stinks of microsoft marketing techniques but the point still remains that a command to delete trees is not new technology and is the kind of thing one would have expected to see long before windows was even dreamt of want good file handling use fileman exe this product requires microsoft windows dos is dead well amen to that but i wish it were a damn sight deader for a dead product its used an awful lot and i suspect its going to carry on twitching for a long while yet which isn t doing anyone any good and microsoft don t appear to have given up marketing dos so it is a very unusual form of death indeed tim walls sysop protocol bbs data fax fidonet amiganet twalls ncc d demon co uk pgp public key available
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re equation editor in article may iitmax iit edu vaxtools chico acc iit edu falke bruinsma wildthing writes hiya i m using word for windows and i am quite satisfied with it except the equation editor screws up all the time when i try to insert an equation it will give me two errors fence font not found and meta font not found the real problem is that it will not display or print out the integral sign does anyone else have this problem and how do i solve it i m using a z sport laptop with a panasonic p printer running msdos and windows thanks falke we all had that problem you need to expand the fonts manually the program decomp is on disk the equations fonts are on disk have fun gel
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re true type or atm seen from a typographically point of view atm using postscript fonts is better than truetype the hinting mechanism incorporated in ps is gorgeous multilingual users may see the limit of possible different characters in a ps font as problematically they may have better use of the unicode features of tt fonts in windows nt i ve seen lots of really beautiful and printable in small size ps fonts i haven t seen those as tt fonts most of them are rendering quite inaccurate in small sizes esp as screen fonts simply compare timesnewroman as a ps font with the tt font the first looks better i am hoping that there will be atm nt claudius mokler e mail mokler desert in berlin de
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	where to find diamond speedstar x drivers the subject says nearly everything i am talking about the accellerator card note the x not about the et product without x please mail me the address of an appropriate ftp server thanx claudius mokler e mail mokler desert in berlin de
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	control systems analysis package cosy pak v updated for mathematica announcing cosy pak a symbolic control systems analysis package version no user fee release for mathematica version or higher introduction cosy pak is set of packages and notebooks for classical control and some modern state space control analysis and design methods the notebooks in cosy pak follow a typical control engineering i course taught at many universities around the world for the junior senior level undergraduates there is no fee to use cosy pak but certain responsibilities are expected of the user see copyright notice in the readme file included below for starters e mail fax mail post the registration form included in the readme file cosy pak is available via anonymous ftp from mishna esys cwru edu internet no in the pub directory p s a typical ftp session in unix is given after the readme file future releases if you would like to receive updates and newer versions of cosy pak please send e mail fax mail to the address below in addition your comments and suggestions are appreciated and are invaluable to us we will do our best to fix any reported bugs however we cannot fix those bugs that have not been reported to us and those we do not know of we would very much appreciate you taking a few minutes to communicate to us via e mail us mail telephone fax this will help us to release bug free versions in the future comments are welcome n sreenath systems engineering department case school of engineering case western reserve university e mail sree mishna cwru edu u s mail prof n sreenath tel systems engg crawford hall fax case western reserve univ cleveland oh begin readme file no user fee release cosy pak a symbolic control systems analysis package version for mathematica version or higher by c k chen n sreenath systems engineering case school of engineering case western reserve university cleveland oh e mail sree mishna cwru edu copyright copyright copyright by c k chen and n sreenath case western reserve university permission to use copy modify and distribute this software and its documentation for any purpose and without fee is hereby granted provided that the above copyright notice appear in supporting documentation and the name of the case western reserve university case school of engineering not be used in advertising or publicity pertaining to distribution of the software without specific without prior permission case western reserve university makes no representations about the suitability of this software for any purpose it is provided as is with out express or implied warranty acknowledgements support from cwru information and network services dr ray neff case alumni association the lilly foundation and the systems engineering department of case western reserve university is gratefully acknowledged special thanks to brian evans of georgia tech for all the help ftp cosy pak is available by anonymous ftp from mishna esys cwru edu internet no a sample ftp session is given at the end of this file changes in version update from v to v in this version we have revised cosy pak to take advantage of the more robust signal processing functions available in mathematica v since mathematica provides a better and working laplacetransform and inverselaplacetransform functions than mathematica v did we adopted them this has made cosy pak smaller thus brian evans signal processing packages that supported the laplacetransform and inverselaplacetransform functions in the cosy pak v are no longer needed directly by cosy pak v for power users who use signal processing we still recommend the use of the very fine brian evans package on signal processing available at the anonymous ftp site gauss eedsp gatech edu or ip on the downside the disadvantage of this update can be that mathematica requires more runtime resources than its previous version for mathematica users we have included the laplacetransform package from mathematica in the directory for please move all files and directory under for into the calculus directory under mathematica packages directory introduction this is an unsupported release of cosy pak a control systems analysis package for symbolic control systems analysis using mathematica classical control systems analysis and design methods and some modern control systems methods have been implemented in this package this package and the attendant notebooks were developed on a next tm computer a unix based workstation they have been used as a supplementary teaching aid along with standard control engineering texts ogata phillips and harbor for undergraduate courses in control engineering i taught at the systems engineering department of cwru in addition to the next they have also been tested successfully on apple macintosh computers tm and ibm pc s tm running ms windows tm we would be very much interested to hear from you if you or anybody you know uses this software on platforms not mentioned above ibm users however will have to evaluate the notebooks first to visualize the graphics once installed see below for instructions this collection of mathematica packages can be loaded by any user bundled with the packages are many notebooks cosy notes which demonstrate the functionality of these packages the notebooks follow a plan of many fine standard undergraduate control engineering text books listed in the references examples used in these notebooks have been collected from the various references given at the end of this file the contents of the notebooks in the cosy notes directory are given below begin cosy notes contents notebook file name introduction ma chapter introduction to control systems sections analyticity poles and zeros signals forward laplace transforms inverse laplace transforms differential equation with zero valued initial conditions differential equation with initial conditions notebook file name math models ma chapter mathematical modeling of dynamic systems sections ode to state space linearization of a nonlinear system of equations state space to transfer function notebook file name transient response ma chapter transient response analysis chapter split into three sub notebooks because of file size notebook file name transient response ma sections time response analysis first order system second order system third order and higher order systems notebook file name transient response ma sections first order system step response vs time const notebook file name transient response ma sections second order system step response vs damping ratio notebook file name steady state response ma chapter steady state response sections routh s stability steady state error analysis notebook file name root locus ma chapter root locus analysis notebook file name freq response ma chapter frequency response analysis sections bode plot analysis magnitude vs phase plot nichols plot polar plot nyquist plot combined example notebook file name state space ma chapter state space methods sections introduction state transition matrix controllability observability output controllability pole placement design observer design time response using state space methods end notebook contents compressed files the files that contain a complete set of the cosy pak v packages and notebooks for mathematica are cosy pak tar z compressed tar file for unix systems cosy pak sit hqx compressed sit file for macintosh systems and encoded by binhex format requires the shareware stuffit file v or higher cosy pak ibm zip zip file for the ibm pc running ms dos once expanded the mathematica files can also be used on macintosh ibm pc unix systems also installation of cosy pak o in unix command line type the following command zcat cosy pak tar z tar xvf o in macintosh open the sit hqx file using the shareware stuffit v or higher o in ibm command line type the following command pkunzip o d cosy pak ibm zip note this zip file was zipped by zip utility v you must use pkunzip version or higher to unzip it ibm pc s may limit the directory name characters to eight in that event type pkunzip o d cosy pak zip you can also unzip the cosy pak ibm zip file on any unix machine if you have unzip utility on it uncompressing and untarring cosy pak tar z or unzipping cosy pak ibm zip will create a directory called cosy pak once the files are expanded you should see a single directory cosy pak containing the following three files four sub directories and their contents sub directories in cosy pak cosypak contains control tool box packages manual cosy pak manual in ps rtf txt and wn formats cosy notes contains notebooks for contains laplace transform package from mathematica for mathematica users files in directory cosypak chap m chap m chap m chap m chap m chap m chap m files in directory cosy notes introduction ma math model ma transient response ma transient response ma transient response ma steady state response ma root locus ma freq response ma state space ma files in directory for laplacetransform m diracdelta m sub directories in cosy pak common files in directory common support m important the notebook example files ma files will be under the cosy notes directory to use the notebooks move the directory cosypak to a directory that mathematica can recognize locallibrary mathematica packages on a unix machine my harddisk mathematica packages on an apple macintosh c winmath packages on an ibm pc at the beginning of the initialization cell of each notebook in cosy notes directory we list the example about how to make mathematica identify the directory initialization of path example for a unix machine default path join path locallibrary mathematica packages example for an apple macintosh path join path my harddisk mathematica packages example for ibm pc path join path c winmath packages change the pathname according to your machine by removing the mathematica comment sign and before and after path setting this command makes mathematica recognize the directory locallibrary mathematica packages on a unix machine my harddisk mathematica packages on a apple macintosh c winmath packages on an ibm pc mathematica users we include the laplacetransform package from mathematica in the directory for please move all files and directory under for into the calculus directory under mathematica packages directory getting started after installation start mathematica and open the notebooks in the cosy notes directory all notebooks load their own packages navigate in the notebooks and enjoy ibm users however will have to evaluate the notebooks to visualize the graphics user responsibilities we request you to take a few minutes and fill out the information below and mail it to us by e mail fax u s mail this will help us to keep your abreast of the improvements and release new versions of cosy pak suggestions for improvements are welcome cut here your name organization title e mail postal address comments suggestions cut here mail this information to e mail fax u s mail internet sree mishna cwru edu u s mail prof n sreenath tel systems engg crawford hall fax case western reserve univ cleveland oh report bugs please report bugs and leave comments to the address above any suggestion for improvements and criticism are welcome we will do our best to fix any reported bugs however we cannot fix those bugs that have not been reported to us and those we do not know of we would very much appreciate you taking a few minutes to communicate to us via e mail us mail telephone fax this will help us to release bug free versions in the future disclaimer and future releases this software is the property of the case western reserve university use this software at your own risk we make no express or implied warranty the packages and the notebooks can also be made to run under mathematica versions or lower with modification we do not guarantee the outcome documentation cosy pak functions are indexed in the files in the manual directory according the chapters usage is illustrated in notebooks residing in cosy notes directory if your computer does not support notebooks find a macintosh computer and acquire mathreader which is a public domain notebook reader mathreader will at least allow you to peruse notebooks but you will not be able to evaluate any code fragments references dorf r c modern control systems sixth edition addison wesley new york fortmann t e and hitz k l an introduction to linear control systems marcel dekker franklin g f powell d j and emami naeini a feedback control of dynamic systems second edition addison wesley new york kuo b c automatic control systems sixth edition prentice hall new jersey ogata k modern control engineering second edition prentice hall new jersey phillips c l and harbor r d feedback control systems second edition prentice hall new jersey end readme file typical ftp session ftp mishna esys cwru edu connected to mishna mishna ftp server version next sun nov ready name mishna esys cwru edu sree anonymous password ftp cd pub ftp binary ftp ls port command successful opening ascii mode data connection for file list cosy pak tar z cosy pak ibm zip index readme places wmd cosy pak untar transfer complete bytes received in seconds kbytes s ftp get cosy pak tar z port command successful opening binary mode data connection for cosy pak tar z bytes transfer complete local cosy pak tar z remote cosy pak tar z bytes received in seconds e kbytes s ftp quit goodbye
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows video driver i ve got an old super vga card manufactured by sampo of taiwan and i m looking for a windows driver for it it s based on the cirrus logic cl gd a pc b chip i ve contacted the suppliers here in new zealand and they say that only windows divers were ever written by the manufacturer so if there s a v driver out for this chip set i d like to know preferably by e mail at rjwjames waikato ac nz thanks is advance ross james
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	text editor to handle large files as the title says does anyone know of a text editor like notepad that can handle large text files thanx for any and all help james burke by reading this you agree not to hold the writer responsible for any evil jburke abacus bates edu happening that may befall you at any time
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re challenge to microsoft supporters in article slalp ls tamsun tamu edu jeffw cs tamu edu jeffrey a waller writes in article may microsoft com jenk microsoft com jen kilmer writes in article c rq b f v uceng uc edu bferrell ant occ uc edu brett ferrell writes in article may microsoft com cliffga microsoft com clifford garrett writes i guess thats why there are so many new dos and os applications coming and hardly any windows apps coming out irony yep the os apps are comming the os apps are comming yet another micro minion hoping that if he says something long enough hey i remember the good old days running os alpha with brief excel word and a couple internal apps product support database client os based email front end life was good but it was also impractical cause the masses were using windows and my job was to help the masses apparently you prefer os to windows or at least did to windows yes by you last comment do you mean that your knowledge of os is dated it must be or argue it s definitely dated i used os alpha when msft was developing it i suspect that the masses were using windows because they couldn t afford to use os can you say as much for nt i preferred windows because it was more stable faster than but could still run more apps than os again i made this choice before was released but getting back to the original question do you have any data on the relative avaliablity or windows applications versus os applications or any evidence that stated support will be dropped by any of the above no i ve seen no such data grow up other companies are supporting os make points please if you see life in terms of debating points i think you need to grow up ah yes i remember the days when we kids would engage in orderly debate but our parents would usually find out and force us to act in the more mature manner of heaping invective and casting rocks and dirt clods hee hee good one it doesn t help microsoft to have employees i assume you are due to the org may be wrong saying such trivial things on the net so microsoft employs over employees walking into this place is not like walking into the commercial there are individuals here you think they ll all talk the same way say the same thing and help microsoft all the time if so why it appears to me that he is voicing his frustration to an attitude he has encountered before and one that i ve encountered as well i on the other hand have had no such experience other than from reading this thread you at microsoft are in a unique position to present facts hmm are you sure i m speaking from my own experience as an os user certainly people in say the nt marketing group would be in a unique position to present the results of say research on upcoming nt and os apps vs windows and ms dos apps part of my point was that just cause one works at microsoft does not mean one has access to such data if it exists but prefer to make baseless claims or attack to poster i must make the same conclusion as he i will confess to at times attacking the poster usenet accounts are not restricted to the marketroids they re open to any fulltimer and are primarily for recreational purposes yeah some of us are likely to answer a question or hop into a debate or make stupid comments you know like human beings i m sorry this newsgroup is only for opressed hackers and stranded extraterrestrials not humans how about alt microsoft humans you seem to discount others anyway again my point was that not all microsofties are here to sell readers on our products which would conflict with the no ads philosophy of usenet nor do we necessarily have access to info that others have i also get tired of people assuming that microsofties are like members of the borg jen include stdisclaimer jenk microsoft com msdos testing
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article may infodev cam ac uk tjrc cus cam ac uk t j r cutts writes even so my point still stands to an extent that k limits appear all over the place where they really are not necessary such as the edit control limit while the k limit may not be necessary limitation they probably fall within the category of reasonable limitations if you find yourself trying to allocate an edit control for more than k of text it s probably time take a good look at your program s design why is there such a small limit to the number of global memory handles allowed in what way is a small number it seems to me that you d hit the wall in many other ways before you d hit the systemwide limit on global handles unless of course you re abusing globalalloc and please don t try to tell me that it s impossible to abuse the resources available under other operating systems all systems have limits the question is whether or not the limits are reasonable so far you haven t offered a single argument which suggests that windows limits are any less reasonable than limits in other systems rick schaut uucp uunet uw beaver microsoft richs microsoft doesn t speak for me and i don t speak for microsoft
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	using mouse in dos window is there a way to use the mouse when running a dos app windowed in win when you window a dos apps in enhanced mode i can see where the mouse cursor was but it doesn t work any help would be greatly appreciated thank you hansang bae hbae cwis unomaha edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	driver for chips technologies video board needed i would like to find a windows x driver for a video board that is based on the chips technologies chipset the actual board is a scorpion framegrabber made by univision it is based on the c t chipset but only barely supports the graphics mode i am hoping that any c t driver could be used in the x x mode thanks stephen corbesero systems manager and adjucnt lecturer memorial drive west corbesero eecs lehigh edu eecs dept lehigh university sgc lehigh edu bethlehem pa voice fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	any utility that let you remap the keyboard under ms win any utility that let you remap the keyboard under ms win thanks for any pointer
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re re challenge to microsoft supporters in article twalls vo ncc d demon co uk twalls ncc d demon co uk tim walls writes from twalls ncc d demon co uk tim walls subject re re re challenge to microsoft supporters date mon may in article may vax clarku edu rmohns vax clarku edu writes but i don t want to have to run blasted windows every time i want to delete a tree it is absolutely ludicrous to load a hog like that just to delete some files it would be like requiring a crane to change the tyre on a car you don t and never had to that s what enhanced shells are for remember dos and ndos i mean come on you can t expect dos to cover everything from r microsoft has other projects to work on they want you to move to windows then later to win and eventually to cairo this way they give you a reason to by deliberately crippling the product surely no oh hold on i guess you re right that certainly stinks of microsoft marketing techniques i don t think they deliberately crippled the project on the other hand it is a technical achievement for what it does considering that it rides on top of dos i mean you get a gui with reasonable speed on a pc with xwindows running on top of linux or something similar you re still gonna need a fast processor re dos s death well amen to that but i wish it were a damn sight deader for a dead product its used an awful lot and i suspect its going to carry on twitching for a long while yet which isn t doing anyone any good except for the people who use dos programs which means about or more of the business world mike
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters jenk microsoft com jen kilmer writes much bs deleted for brevity again my point was that not all microsofties are here to sell readers on our products which would conflict with the no ads philosophy of usenet nor do we necessarily have access to info that others have it certainly smacks of that remember the poll that you quoted saying that you had seen a of users being satisfied with dos care to recall how unbiased the sample set was that post sure looked like fud and coming from a microsoftie well it sure seemed like something was not on level advocacy is good but spreading fud to advocate your favorite os is very unethical especially when you have a vested interest in the success of that os i also get tired of people assuming that microsofties are like members of the borg that is because their actions seem to invite this opinion never seen more defensive people in my life moreover many of their posts seem to encourage this too imho seriously speaking it is a shame that ms techie employees get the heat for ms s actions most of which are perpetrated by the management and marketing i am sure that they are very talented etc i have not doubts about their abilities just about the ethics of their marketing practices divya divya live long and then die a slow and horrible death what confucius wanted to say
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re challenge to microsoft supporters in article c vd q e s uceng uc edu bferrell moth occ uc edu brett ferrell writes in article may microsoft com jimfr microsoft com jim francis writes i know for a fact that the only reason many companies wrote os apps was because ibm paid them for it i d write an app for the ti a if ti paid me in advance to do it ibm can only pay so many people for so many apps once that stops so does the development software companies don t stay in business writing apps that won t generate revenue the fact that ibm was paying them for it allowed them to do it and stay in business how many apps are selling ask wordperfect borland lotus how much revenue they are getting from sales and if they plan on writing more apps you may be suprised by the answer i won t i would get into microsoft practices but the thread would go on for every you do have an interesting point that i won t dispute now but pray tell if you know for a fact anything why don t you provided some insight into your source do you think that will accept it for fact maybe i would if you gave your word even if he says he knows for a fact what more do you have to gain if he gives his word do you think he s lying right now but c mon it would appear that you are employed by the competition you should expect to asked about your sources and just give them up front or not make the claim brett d sherron ferrell email bferrell uceng uc edu anyway how about this i give you my word without naming sources that ibm paid companies to write applications for os satisfied mike
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	problem wallpaper display corrupt for bitmaps k i have a problem with the wallpaper on my desktop in x x mode for bitmap files bigger than about k slightly less sometimes depending on the exact dimensions the wallpaper display is badly corrupted the rest of the desktop is fine for wallpaper bitmaps smaller than this i have no problem i have a friend who has an k bitmap which he has no problems with so it is possible it is also possible to display these bitmaps using cshow in x x mode with no problem so the video card is not at fault how can i remedy this my system dx mb ram dos windows oak mb video card x x mode using supplied drivers windows has a permanent kb swap file please reply via e mail and use the address in my sig as our post software always seems to mangle the address in the header thanks mazz richard mazzaferri ph d student uni of newcastle ph mazz faceng newcastle edu au australia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters much munching and editing to get to the point brett d sherron ferrell writes you do have an interesting point that i won t dispute now but pray tell if you know for a fact anything why don t you provided some insight into your source do you think that will accept it for fact maybe i would if you gave your word even mike timbol responds if he says he knows for a fact what more do you have to gain if he gives his word do you think he s lying right now while i do not think he is lying i also feel hesitant to take anybody on their word unless they can attribute a source for thier claims with all the fud and misinformations and misconceptions and outright lies flying around the advocacy newsgroups i do not trust any unsubstantiated rumor or claim especially from any employees of ibm s or microsoft or anyone who seems to have a vested interest divya divya live long and then die a slow and horrible death what confucius wanted to say
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	workgroups for windows hello i want a little network for users all users want to run windows the most important things i want for the network are file sharing mail utility two printers on one of the computers and a fax modem card on one of the computers we all want to use each others harddisk my idea was to buy three computers one dx and two dx all three have a mb local harddisk the also has a very large harddisk all three also have a network card the is connected to the printers and contains the fax modem card and last but not least workgroups for windows my questions is this possible what exactly are the possibilities and advantages of workgroups for windows will all the computers be fast enough behind all three someone is working thanks martijn
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wrk installation oddity last night i tried to reinstall the utilities from the windows resource kit disk the setup program appeared to run perfectly normally but when it had finished there was no program group created now i know i ve done this before successfully and creating a group myself didn t exactly tax me but i m curious as to what might be going on i can only assume that something left over from the last time i had it installed is getting in the way but i can t figure out what any clues anyone david eastwood sybase inc emeryville ca eastwood sybase com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	bit rgb i am working with bit rgb bmp files and need to comvert these to and bit images how do convert bit images to and bit rgb images thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how can i change the font and size for the system hi on the x x mode the font sizes of window menu help window are very small can i change the font and font size for these windows my computer is dx the video card is ati d could some experts please email the answer to grzheng vax concondia ca thanks in advance guo rong zhehg concordia univ montreal canada
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	driver for s mb card dear netters my friend have brought a s card with mb ram is there any new driver for the card available on ftp cites what is the newest version she is very interest in have a driver for x with hicolor and x true color no such driver come with the card k w mok k w mok e mail h hkuxa hku hk dept of chem university of hong kong
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	can os talk to windows for workgroups i d like to get a system running os ga talking to a network of pcs running windows for workgroups acting as a server would be wonderful but client access would be enough can i run wfw s net utilities in a dos box or is there a way to actually get os to talk to wfw will os lanman clients talk to wfw dazed and confused tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo ont stick your index fingers into both corners of your mouth now pull up that s how the corrado makes you feel car january
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re can os talk to windows for workgroups tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes can i run wfw s net utilities in a dos box or is there a way to actually get os to talk to wfw will os lanman clients talk to wfw following up to my own article i found that several people say that lan server clients can talk to wfw is this then also true for lan manager don t lan server and lan manager share common roots dazed and confused somewhat less so now tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo ont stick your index fingers into both corners of your mouth now pull up that s how the corrado makes you feel car january
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ms mouse newer as hello i need a microsoft mouse driver but newer as for going in dos window under ms windows but it is must be freeware i have version tx mike
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re good autoexec bat and config sys for windows in may datamark co nz thomas datamark co nz thomas beagle writes there is no need to load emm qemm or anything else on many windows pcs it s only useful if you are still stuck with running msdos based applications that need lots of low memory free otherwise you just need to load himem sys and let windows go straight to the extended memory that s what i thought that s why i never used emm exe before kirk membry our age is the age of industry rutgers viamar kmembry alexander rodchenko
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters bjgrier bnr ca brian grier writes this has gone on too long people get a life if you haven t converted anyone to your way of thinking yet you probably will not convert anyone just let this subject die a quiet though painfull death if this keeps up i ll start believing the self righteousness should be capital offense you ll have to kill off half the net maybe that isn t such a bad idea pete gontier ec technology gurgle netcom com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	remapping in procomm windows one can only remap special command keys in procomm it seems i would like to remap other keys too especially altgr and such combinations anybody know a plain or dirty way to do this of cause most people settle for remapping function keys but i don t see why there should be a limitation yours mattias
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	teacher for windows nt we are searching for one or two instructors for tutorials on advanced windows programming under nt if anyone has attended a course that was very good we would really appreciate recommendations please email me directly at paller fedunix org i don t get to see these newsgroups often enough thanks in advance for any help alan paller tutorials director
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re where to find diamond speedstar x drivers cica indiana edu pc drivers the current version is
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re is there a version of unix s vi editor for windoews pete holsberg pjh mccc edu wrote subject line says it all i looked and looked but came up empty handed are you a pervert you are pervert ok vi is not cua but it has a powerful set of commands one for all it has separate clipboard and not only one ofor all kind of data like windows does the only problem is to know the commands the keyboard shortcut i am quite fast with the pc keyboard and i usually use all fingers to digit so when i use a editor i do not want to leave the keyboard and use the mouse every time i need a special function on the menu or to use the arrow keys that are away from the usual position of my hands on the keyboard in my situation vi is very powerful and i m searching to a vi editor for windows bye p s sorry for the bad english
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re creating a batch file from windows nt in sasswb k sasswb unx sas com scott bass writes for windows nt is there an alternative to the archane fairly useless dos batch programming language for os ibm introduced the rexx language as an alternative to bat surely windows nt should do the same thing right in lieu of the above is there any way to escape the cr lf in a bat file and continue a single command across multiple lines i have an application which exits to the system and submits a batch file the batch file is created on the fly from site specific code stored within the application as currently designed the line length for the stored code and the output file bat file is characters which is not enough for all the options that must be specified on a particular command it would help tremendously if i didn t have to redesign my code to kludge around the lack of a true batch shell programming language rest deleted as a followup to my post let me add that i m not really a windows or windows nt user so please excuse my ignorance however i m a developer at sas institute and one component of the application that i support is the ability to submit a sas batch job from within an interactive sas session the user site can enter their site specific batch profile into a dataset within our product specifying the pathname to the sas executable specifying site specific sas options etc at run time certain variables are resolved and the resolved file is written to an external ascii file then i exit to the operating system and run the job asynchronously returning to the interactive session as soon as the job is submitted the batch job then runs concurrently with the interactive session as currently designed the internal dataset has a record length of characters but to run the batch job the command to reinvoke sas in batch mode requires more than characters up til nt this has not been a problem since every job control shell language up til nt eg mvs cms vms unix os had a way to escape the cr lf and enter a single command across multiple lines os via their rexx language which is standard with os the gist of all this is since this application is for end users not within my company i have to try to develop this process using native nt since my first posting i ve learned that there are several third party companies that provide alternative script languages for windows windows nt and i m sure a company that licenses our product would use that alternative script language if they had it but i can t develop under the assumption that they have anything other than what comes with nt i saw another post on this list the subject was something like is vi available for windows in which someone said that vi make awk and ksh was available with microsoft toolkit what is that product is it a separate product or part of windows ksh would do what i need if i could count on it at all nt sites one last question i ve heard that nt has remote processing capabilities i e i could shove this batch job off to a server machine and have it run there if these are native nt commands rather than network specific commands this would also help me improve this process if you can comment on these commands i would appreciate it thanks again for the help scott bass sas institute inc integrated systems a x sas campus drive cary nc sasswb k unx sas com x
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	deriving from class object with owl i am trying to define my own class derived from the object class so that i may insert them into a hashtable a class provided by the container class library i have defined all of the pure virtual functions of object but i still get an error when i attempt to allocate a hashentry object cannot create instance of abstract class hashentry has anyone derived from class object before what have i left out here are the virtual functions that i defined from object virtual classtype isa const return hashentryclass virtual pchar nameof const return hashentry virtual hashvaluetype hashvalue const return hashvalue hwindow note hwindow is defined in hashentry virtual int isequal const object far obj const return this hashentry obj virtual void printon rostream os const os hwindow is void far hwindow n bowden wise computer science dept rensselaer polytechnic inst troy ny internet wiseb cs rpi edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	questions about dos external join command i am setting up my dos unix box on a m ide and a m scsi drive and was wondering about the use of the ms dos join command i like the way it sets things up since i won t have to stick with the c d e crap that dos enforces i like how it would mimic mount points of unix filesystems i have heard that there were problems with using it or at least under older versions of dos please tell leopard hyperion com i don t work for hyperion i just live here steeven m vawter telephone svawter raynet com work unix sys admin
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re deriving from class object with owl i solved my problem i still do not understand why it happens ths way perhaps some of you c gurus can explain this to all of us for some reason when i define the following functins in the class definition in the h file the compiler thinks some pure virtual functions are not defined when i placed these two in a separate source file and compiled them the problem went away any ideas what happen are the functions that are defined in the class construct all inline is this the problem virtual int isequal const object far obj const return this hashentry obj virtual void printon rostream os const os hwindow is void far hwindow n bowden wise computer science dept rensselaer polytechnic inst troy ny internet wiseb cs rpi edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	deltapoints animated desktop hiyas all upon getting animated desktop for windows as a gift from my boyfriend i couldn t wait to install it i had gotten an advertisement for it and put it aside with my list of i wants after installing the software it didn t load no part of the software would load even though the install went seemingly well i called deltapoint with the problem and after asking me twenty million different questions about my system concluded that i had one of the systems that the software was incompatible with of course they re willing to give me my back what a waste of time and energy the folks on their support line although nice are extremely ignorant regarding the workings of windows after my experience with the installation of the sb i learned some of the function of windows dll files before sending back desktop animator decided to do some fooling around with the different versions of dll files i had i had versions of cpalette dll one dated and k the other dated and smaller the smaller version was the one supplied with desktop animator i moved the bigger older version of cpalette dll to a directory outside my path for some reason i had the older cpalette dll in my windows directory and the newer cpallette in my windows system directory when i did this the animator s editor loaded and so did other of the applications in the package the main application still didn t load does anyone have any ideas as to why this would occur or any further suggestions for trouble shooting darla portal darla shell portal com darla cup portal com aol kuby u aol com darlaiam aol com wix darla genie kuby l jj jj
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	strange messages when starting windows on a recently acquired gateway machine when starting windows three copyright statements flash on the screen right after the ms logo disappears and before programmanager takes over this does not happen on any other of our machines and i am wondering whether this is a feature or whether this is related to several problems we are having with the machine the system is a gateway dx machine the messages that appear are c copyright western digital corporation all rights reserved c copyright congruent corporation all rights reserved c copyright microsoft corporation all rights reserved the autoexec bat file looks like this echo off prompt p g set mouse c msmouse c msmouse mouse path c c dos c windows c c wp f apps f system f winapps f public set temp c windows temp lh wd e n x x xd lh winpkt x x lh ipx lh netx f login login win the config sys file looks like this device c windows himem sys dos high umb device c windows emm exe noems x d d ff stacks files buffers shell c dos command com p e does anyone know what is going on any help would be much appreciated department of urban and regional planning e mail varkki uiuc edu university of illinois at urbana champaign tel
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re challenge to microsoft supporters in article timbolc wh d hz netcom com timbol netcom com mike timbol writes anyway how about this i give you my word without naming sources that ibm paid companies to write applications for os satisfied mike doesn t ms do the same i e subsidize app development i seem to remember someone at rpi who received an entire expensive to run nt machine to develop for nt free and that s just the small fry ted
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re hp deskjet c try using laser printer copier paper it works quite well and is cheaper than hpspecial paper thomas a smith ii youngstown state university chemistry dept ad yfn ysu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article sundaram msuinfo sundaram egr msu edu wrote jenk microsoft com jen kilmer writes much bs deleted for brevity again my point was that not all microsofties are here to sell readers on our products which would conflict with the no ads philosophy of usenet nor do we necessarily have access to info that others have it certainly smacks of that remember the poll that you quoted saying that you had seen a of users being satisfied with dos care to recall how unbiased the sample set was that post sure looked like fud and coming from a microsoftie well it sure seemed like something was not on level it came from a reseller survey advocacy is good but spreading fud to advocate your favorite os is very unethical especially when you have a vested interest in the success of that os i don t recall any fud here maybe an example i also get tired of people assuming that microsofties are like members of the borg that is because their actions seem to invite this opinion never seen more defensive people in my life moreover many of their posts seem to encourage this too imho for the most part this newsgroup is attack oriented microsoft has been attacked on anything ranging from the quality of our products the intelligence of our people the integrity of our business etc anyone would get defensive when being baselessly attacked we are human beings as well you should expect a response when a claim that an employee might feel is unwarranted is leveled seriously speaking it is a shame that ms techie employees get the heat for ms s actions most of which are perpetrated by the management and marketing i am sure that they are very talented etc i have not doubts about their abilities just about the ethics of their marketing practices divya divya live long and then die a slow and horrible death what confucius wanted to say
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	displaying stream output in a window i am using owl and want to display the output from a stream in a popup window is there a way to perhaps redirect cout to a window or alternatively set up a separate stream that supports output and be able to display the stream output in an tedit control anyone ever done something like this bowden wise computer science dept rensselaer polytechnic inst troy ny internet wiseb cs rpi edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re challenge to microsoft supporters in article c y mz dnp news claremont edu tlilley jarthur claremont edu ted writes in article timbolc y b n netcom com timbol netcom com mike timbol writes anyway how about this i give you my word without naming sources that ibm paid companies to write applications for os satisfied not really query what do you mean by paid are you implying that helped to offset development costs or paid for the entire cost of producing the product i mean they paid the companies that developed the applications i e we ll give you x million dollars if you port application y to os i suppose the company in question could use the x million dollars for whatever they want would you like to post figures for ms as well i suppose ted no i d rather not first of all i don t have exact figures and i don t want to disclose how i know this however i will say that jim francis from microsoft just posted a figure of million payment from ibm to borland and that s somewhere in the range that i ve heard mike
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article sundaram msuinfo sundaram egr msu edu divya sundaram writes jenk microsoft com jen kilmer writes much bs deleted for brevity again my point was that not all microsofties are here to sell readers on our products which would conflict with the no ads philosophy of usenet nor do we necessarily have access to info that others have it certainly smacks of that remember the poll that you quoted saying that you had seen a of users being satisfied with dos it was and actually another msdos team member posted it note that people not on the msdos team would not necessarily know about that or care to recall how unbiased the sample set was when i heard those numbers i wondered how they got them having worked in product support and knowing that the typical support caller has very little positive to say about the product i figured it wasn t from there so i wandered over to the marketing folks and asked and i was told it was from a survey of registered users and i posted that on the net when people asked where the figure came from that post sure looked like fud and coming from a microsoftie well it sure seemed like something was not on level hmm i figured if chuck posted the numbers why not include where they came from i also find it interesting that postitive info is fear uncertainty doubt advocacy is good but spreading fud to advocate your favorite os is very unethical especially when you have a vested interest in the success of that os i think you ve got me confused with someone else i don t pretend that msdos provides what all people need or that other oses including unix os don t provide useful and or necessary features i also don t push people to use msdos i even posted in comp os msdos misc that i suggest waiting before installing a new os esp if you have trouble support is always overloaded during release unless the sales are a total bomb i also get tired of people assuming that microsofties are like members of the borg that is because their actions seem to invite this opinion never seen more defensive people in my life i ain t saying some of us don t get defensive sometimes do you really think msdos gets any more respect within microsoft than outside it i just mean we all aren t cut out of the same dough with the same cookie cutter we don t all think alike yeah chuckst and i have some inside info on msdos doesn t mean that everyone else does seriously speaking it is a shame that ms techie employees get the heat for ms s actions most of which are perpetrated by the management and marketing i am sure that they are very talented etc i have not doubts about their abilities just about the ethics of their marketing practices jen include stdisclaimer jenk microsoft com msdos testing
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article may microsoft com kenk microsoft com ken kiesow writes in article sundaram msuinfo sundaram egr msu edu wrote it certainly smacks of that remember the poll that you quoted saying that you had seen a of users being satisfied with dos care to recall how unbiased the sample set was that post sure looked like fud and coming from a microsoftie well it sure seemed like something was not on level it came from a reseller survey i had posted that it came from a survey of registered users i double checked with a friendly neighborhood marketing type and found there were actually two surveys one of randomly selected resellers one of randomly selected users from the upgrade registered user database both surveys showed a positive rating jen include stdisclaimer jenk microsoft com msdos testing
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hot key for screen saver is there a hot key for the windows screen saver utility if not is there an easy way to create one the reason that i need one is that my dad s company is anal retentive about leaving a computer while the information can be accessed so the employees are not allowed to walk away from the computer until the screen saver kicks in as if that is terribly secure also the system manager won t let any software be added so another program such as lock zip from cica or a different screen saver is out thanks for any and all help chris putnam still a blue devils lover at heart euphonium baritone star in
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in a previous article jenk microsoft com jen kilmer wrote i had posted that it came from a survey of registered users i double checked with a friendly neighborhood marketing type and found there were actually two surveys one of randomly selected resellers one of randomly selected users from the upgrade registered user database both surveys showed a positive rating jen include stdisclaimer jenk microsoft com msdos testing which translates to not satisfied i don t think it s the awkward recursive deletion that s bugging people it certainly isn t the nice windows interfaces for new dos accessories cpav defrager undelete as far as i ve noticed it s doublespace crashes frankly the fairly high rates of doublespace crashes i ve heard of surprises me i figured that since the os is presumably aware of doublespace it is less likely to crash unlike stacker which fools the os but do is gullible anyway dos is aware of doublespace isn t it anyway good job on dos and dos is good for new users just beware the doublespace rob rmohns vax clarku edu rob mohns annoy rush limbaugh think for yourself
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help hello all it is my understanding that all true type fonts in windows are loaded in prior to starting windows this makes getting into windows quite slow if you have hundreds of them as i do first off am i correct in this thinking secondly if that is the case can you get windows to ignore them on boot and maybe make something like a pif file to load them only when you enter the applications that need fonts any ideas chris origin chris doelle f n z fidonet org
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters for the most part this newsgroup is attack oriented microsoft has been attacked on anything ranging from the quality of our products the intelligence of our people the integrity of our business etc anyone would get defensive when being baselessly attacked we are human beings as well you should expect a response when a claim that an employee might feel is unwarranted is leveled ignore the attacks and look at the sales numbers and the ms stock price if you need some gratification just keep doing the great job you have done in the past thx dave l
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	suggestions for winforwg com redirection needed help i am trying to find software that will allow com port redirection under windows for workgroups can anyone out there make a suggestion or reccommend something i would really hate to have to write some driver for the serial port that would support the network but that is my next step thanks in advance bkv
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mouse systems driver for mouse control in dos window does anyone know if there is such an animal i have a mouse systems trackball and would like a driver for this device that would allow me to use the mouse within a dos window the same way microsoft s mouse driver works thanks chris chris shenefiel who does not represent his company in any way shape or form on this forum nor do his opinions or comments represent the opinions of his company nor do his opinions or comments even merit consideration of any kind
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how to prevent ctl alt del from windows i would like to prevent our windows users from using ctl alt del from within windows i know there must be a way to do it could anyone point me in the right direction thanks in advance mike glynn mike glynn business gatech edu mike glynn stolen sig follows a hot rodder is someone who is completely internet mg prism gatech edu baffled by people who are not into cars
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters mike dahmus mike schleppo bocaraton ibm com wrote yes a lot of what os has in common with os x was written by you guys however many of the things that made os so much more successful win os workplace shell than previous versions were ibm work win os is ibm work you make me laugh re writing couple of thousands lines of code to make windows compatible with your dpmi implementation does not make the rest of windows ibm work serge p
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters bferrell cicada occ uc edu brett ferrell writes in article may microsoft com jenk microsoft com jen kilm er writes found there were actually two surveys one of randomly selected resellers one of randomly selected users from the upgrade registered user database both surveys showed a positive rating jen if jd power and associates did the survey i would like an anonymous ftp site to pick it up at only a sucker believes an ms released survey results about an ms product ok assume that the results of the survey whatever they are are honest if the results indicated extreme dissatisfaction with the product is ms going to tell us to stop buying ms dos because it sux sure would it not be fair to say that the relatively few people who have decided to purchase would be inclined to like it just as those of us who love os most of the people who but them know more or less what to expect and are not disappointed i mean it is nice to know that the people who bought it are happy and important for ms to know and i don t dispute the accuracy i just would hate to see people extrapolate from that population that dos is the next computer revolution well these statistics are to shut people up and add some microscopic weight to ms arguments as i just said you have seen what automakers do who is going to believe chrysler if they tell us in a random chrysler conducted survey my theory about certain people is that they are convinced that if a point is maintained long enough it is true after all what is the focus of this company information money and information technology is for some an expedient toward these ends why did bill gates drop out of college was it because he couldn t afford it at the time was it because as the wsj says he couldn t wait to use what he knew to go out and make money bill gate s answer to this question would be highly interesting i await it i can t stomach bill declaring himself a visionary and using every available opportunity to build up the cult around himself and then having ms sell dos and windoze as their main stays kenton cmu edu os fixes broken windows
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters mfischer ucsd edu mike fischer writes you re missing the main point of capitalism in the first place competition breeds excellence yes where commodities are concerned imagining that capitalist theorists had software in mind when they wrote their grand treatises on the main point of capitalism is non productive pete gontier ec technology gurgle netcom com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	disk image question hello recently i noticed there is a directory named diskimage in my disk i didn t notice it before and i wonder if while installing an application an image of the disk was created or if win automatically created a backup of its files i couldn t find any documentation on the diskimage utility having an image of the disk is taking a lot of disk space does anybody know if this is just something the people who installed win did or it is a backup mechanism thanks anibal anibal mayorga wenark dr w mayorga cis udel edu newark de h
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	upgrading to windows nt i d like to appeal to the net s nt wizards for a bit of advice first a general description of the machine as follows motherboard utron mhz opti chipset meg memory kb cache soon i hope to drop a dx chip into it fahrenheit video meg x x proaudio spectrum sound board primary disk connor cp on a caching ide controller secondary disk conner cp as slave on same controller tertiary disk fujitsu meg on superstore esdi controller planned future disks include scsi hd and cd rom on pas scsi port tape drive is a colorado jumbo on the floppy controller future tape drive may be a dat on the scsi interface other hardware includes modem fax serial ports and a teletext board ugly dos software drives the latter applications used include normal windows stuff excel word quicken and turbo pascal windows but the important stuff is my audio work environment which includes turtle beach wave for windows mcs stereo and other misc stuff for dinking around with audio files also i use stacker on the primary drive hp newwave for my wife s use and she won t let me get rid of it and a product called infinite disk from chili pepper software for hierarchical storage management of my seldom used offline files i plan to upgrade to nt when it becomes a released product i was stongly tempted to become a beta user early on but i don t have time to mess around with the hassles of beta software i expect to buy it tear off the shrink wrap and use it without hassle i know unrealistic but i can hope can t i after all i have work to do the advice i want concerns the state of nt regarding device drivers and hardware specific stuff in general how smoothly can i expect the upgrade to go can i expect support for all my stuff or do i still need to scramble around downloading drivers pas orchid colorado from some bbs etc what steps should i take to ensure the installation goes smoothly note that i want to nuke dos totally from the system i m allergic to command lines i plan to run a pure nt system also will nt communicate with the workgroups lan what about stacker i currently have stacker on the first disk drive without stacker and the infinite disk product i will have great difficulty fitting everything i have on the system it s cramped now i realize stacker will be incompatible with nt but will there be an nt version or will nt support compression a la dos i know infinite disk will be incompatible with nt but will they offer or does anybody else a comparable product for nt and at what cost perhaps i need to ask chili pepper that question i can live without id if i have to but i d rather not will nt run my dos apps the teletext board mainly without dos on the system what do i need to keep around any feedback or advice including forget nt with good reasons is much appreciated my only significant reason for moving to nt is i need a better multitasking environment than windows among other reasons wave locks up the machine for hours and hours doing dsp processing on large audio files and i want better lan support than i now have internet access etc maybe there are better solutions than nt and if so i would appreciate hearing about them os what s it s status these days pls respond by email and if there is interest i ll summarize for the net thanks nathan gregory p psilink com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re how to prevent ctl alt del from windows in article hydra gatech edu mg prism gatech edu glynn mike writes i would like to prevent our windows users from using ctl alt del from within windows i know there must be a way to do it could anyone point me in the right direction thanks in advance mike glynn are you sure you want to do that if a win app locks up for some reason ctrl alt del may be the only way to kill the app and get back to windows granted it doesn t work all that often but it has come in handy on occasion i consider it pretty carefully before i disabled that keystroke just a thought if you d like to talk for hours just go ahead now the spin doctors dominic drohan electronic data systems eds email drohand cad gmeds com note the views and opinions expressed herein are mine and do not reflect those of eds
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article sundaram msuinfo sundaram egr msu edu divya sundaram writes jenk microsoft com jen kilmer writes much bs deleted for brevity again my point was that not all microsofties are here to sell readers on our products which would conflict with the no ads philosophy of usenet nor do we necessarily have access to info that others have it certainly smacks of that remember the poll that you quoted saying that you had seen a of users being satisfied with dos care to recall how unbiased the sample set was that post sure looked like fud and coming from a microsoftie well it sure seemed like something was not on level if i recall jen said right up front how the sample set was derived where s the fud advocacy is good but spreading fud to advocate your favorite os is very unethical especially when you have a vested interest in the success of that os does this mean i can flame you if i ever see you doing it face it the advocacy groups are for the kind of things that you re preaching against this is why they were created in the first place to filter out all the crap from the newsgroups that might contain real information phil nothing i have posted here is in any way shape or form official microsoft policy or opinion and should not be represented as such when quoted here or in any other forum philipla microsoft com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse my original post subject re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse i have a microsoft serial mouse and am using mouse com was using i think but switched to to see if it was any better vertical motion is nice and smooth but horizontal motion is so bad i sometimes can t click on something because my mouse jumps around i can be moving the mouse to the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for a bit then jump to the right then move smoothly for a bit then jump again maybe this time to the left about inch this is crazy i have never had so much trouble with a mouse before anyone have any solutions aha i think i found the problem and it isn t dirt another guy here was using a different kind of mouse and was using x x video driver the default vga for windows he has an s localbus card like i do and when i loaded the s video driver in windows for him his mouse became jumpy too seems like it is the s driver is there any newer one than version that would solve this problem it is really bad i have to use the keyboard instead sometimes the s w zip on cica is version which is the same version that came with my card sean eckton computer support representative college of fine arts and communications d hfac brigham young university provo ut hfac csr byu edu ecktons ucs byu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re good autoexec bat and config sys for windows in article c uf d gz acsu buffalo edu kan mongwa mongwa acsu buffalo edu writes in article c s ux n f acsu buffalo edu kan mongwa mongwa acsu buffalo edu writes do not load smartdrv sys if you are using stacker this applies for windows i replied why do you mean just use smartdrv exe in autoexec bat roger you answered quoting from windows setup txt under the section for using stacker for best performance do not use smartdrive to cache the compressed drive you only need to cache the uncompressed drive check it out for yourself i think it is important to clear up your first reply you gave the impression that you should not use smartdrive with stacker you are correct re caching the compressed drive however as i understand it you can cache the uncompressed drive thus if you have compressed your disk c you will have a c and probably a d drive under stacker c being the compressed disk which is just a large file on d and d being the uncompressed disk you should only attempt to stack d in fact with win and smartdrv exe it seems smart enough to automatically default to stacking your a b and d drives roger
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	why does my window restart my computer files buffers device c windows himem sys device c windows smartdrv exe double buffer stacks and also my autoexec bat c vshield c windows smartdrv exe l rem mouseware setup path c c dos c windows c fax c mouse c wp set temp c windows temp mouse ser rem c dos share have you seen this problem before please help me out thanks hadi
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how to make an rle file i m told that i can replace the colorful windows logo that appears as windows invokes with a graphic of my choosing the challange is that the image must be in rle format i ve got gif s pic s jpg s tif s etc everything but rle s what s the best route to converting these things what program should i download and from where has anybody else done this and do you have the steps available thanks e mail to ivory e sa epi syr ge com or ivory tower com would be prefered
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	microcal origin working model new version uploaded to cica i ve recently uploaded to cica the current v version of the working model of microcal origin a scientific and technical d d graphics and data analysis package for windows x the working model is d only and puts a promo message on hardcopies but is largely identical to the full version saving origin files is disabled but you can save ascii data sets produced with origin it also says it has an expiration date of sept try it you may like it as i do it s currently in pub pc win uploads as origin zip include std disclaimer tom carter carter photon cem msu edu michigan state university carter msucem bitnet chemistry department
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re upgrading to windows nt in article p psilink com nathan gregory p psilink com says i d like to appeal to the net s nt wizards for a bit of advice this sounds like a good question the hardware is specific to him but in general please respond to him via news and not e mail there probably are alot of people wanting to read the replies including myself mike packard aplcomm jhuapl edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes ignore the attacks and look at the sales numbers and the ms stock price if you need some gratification just keep doing the great job you have done in the past thx dave l this is the part that usually gets me while i am set to make money there usually are other things to be considered and debated that is the purpose of life if you only willing to look at the stock price and sales numbers for gratification usually you ll end up with japanese or whoever that is competitive owing your business i e short sighted imo this is very irresponsible narrow minded and selfish henceforth ignoring the attack is not the right approach as a matter of fact i just happen to believe the willingness to debate and readjust is the greatest assets of this society sales number and stock price is the short term result not the cause
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ms test help question is there a newsgroup for it hi i would like to know if there is a seperate newgroup for discussion of ms test or quality assurance issues or if not what newsgroup would be the appropriate one to use does compuserve or microsoft themselves have a bbs people can call for help on such thanks please email response to djw wang com d helmet rules what s up doc djw wang com i have a plan now and a clue
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	eps clip art sale less than of mailorder price i have three libraries all on cd which cost me over two thousand dollars mail order they are all genuine high quality eps vector graphics not just some scans with a silly eps wrapper they are totem graphics color eps library about color eps images this costs a thousand bucks mailorder i rate this clip art as high quality much better than dynamic graphics clip art sotmc clip art etc in my opinion but i rate both the g library and the c a r library as higher totem s art is all color whereas most of the other s are b w it s the best all color library out there in my opinion c a r graphics library haven t counted how many images but you can purchase the library on floppies to give you an idea of the size this costs about hundred bucks mailorder i rate this clip art as very high quality but it s only b w g graphics library very popular in all the mac mags this costs about hundred bucks mailorder i rate this clip art as very high quality got some awards in one of the major mac mags forgot which some of the images are color but most are b w for what it s worth all three of the cd s are saved in multiple file formats they are readable on mac s and pc s additionally totem s will mount native next also although the next could just as easily mount either the mac or pc filesystems i ve personally tested the cd s on all three machines i ve owned all three machines although i sold my next a few months ago also in my opinion the g and c a r libraries are the best in the business and i ve seen lots also totem s is in my opinion the best all color library around although i like g s color art better i want for everything can ship certified check c o d as well as visa mc charge if you pay by visa mc i ll ship pre paid in the continental u s if i ship c o d buyer pays freight and c o d fee reason for selling no longer have dtp business please respond via email or telephone as i rarely check these news groups nevin email npratt glacier sim es com voice h w x
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re multiple printers through print manager in article lance lance lancea actrix gen nz lance lancea actrix gen nz lance andrewes writes how does print manager deal with multiple printers we re planning to print to two printers from an application one will be a real printer and the other a fax program will print manager just deal with the jobs one at a time or will it feed to both printers at once please research carefully just because a fax modem behaves like a printer on a local machine doesn t guarantee functionality when a local machine has fax software printing to a remotely installed fax card i tried this with workgroups and the fax software didn t like it at all could have been winfax s peculiarisms but i don t think so a lot of special hardware interaction takes place internally in my case a fax manager program merely intercepts the print job and spools it to it s own directory not print manager s spool directory to software it appears the job was printed print manager plays no part in the handling of the actual process pardon me if i ve incorrectly assumed this is what you were up to a truely network aware fax modem will most likely be required or a lot of weird setup and tinkering good luck
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re diamond stealth in article s charm magnus acs ohio state edu vromanel magnus acs ohio state edu vincent a romanelli writes i recently purchased a diamond stealth isa graphics accelerator card based upon a positive review by steve gibson of infoworld although it s fast i find its windows drivers extremely buggy despite implementing all of the diamond technical support suggestions does anyone else have any experience with this card any feedback appreciated i have had a lot of problems with it i belive i have the latest drivers for it there are some occasions when i fire up windows it works great if you ever find newer drivers i would appreciate a pointer to there location paul
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re monitors for windows alwin hoogerdijk alwin zen et tudelft nl wrote julio botelho hlbbs uucp julio botelho writes is does anyone know whether or not it is possible to have monitors working is with microsoft windows i have a taxan multi vision and a nec this may work when using a vga and a hercules card in one system but using two vga cards in one system will never work i believe that two a may be used in tandem on one system this is the one exception to the vga mono dual monitor combo that i have heard about has anybody done this jim mc james d mcnamara member of technical staff tasc walkers brook drive reading ma x
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re vbrun dll marion humboldt kent edu lou marion writes can someone point me in the direction of this file thanks lou marion dept of geography kent state university marion humboldt kent edu sure oh sorry this is not rec humor try cica in pub pc win get index to see where it is all opinions expressed are my own because nobody else wants them jls antares larc nasa gov jon l sweet
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re vbrun dll can someone point me in the direction of this file thanks should come with visual basic new version is vbrun dll thx dave l
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re adding icons to progman exe florian piekert floppy s link escape de wrote hi out there is there anybody who can write me how to add icons to the iconlist which is build into of progman exe i m grateful for every clue thanx and have a nice day one way is to use a program called iconmaster it s shareware and if you can t get it mail me and i ll post it to you matthew simpkin kingston university a primitive race you too cs e kingston ac uk computer science shall be asimilated
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re solution multi setups on standalone easy peter goudswaard goudswaa fraser sfu ca wrote setup deleted finally in order to run your specific version of windows you must simply change the path to include c winmastr and your specific configuration path e g c winwife you could get fancy and use batch files environment variables or a menuing system to do this other stuff delete if you happen to be running the new msdos you could use multi setup to provide a menu with a menu choice for each person using the machine power up select your name the menu will use your personal sections of config sys and autoexec bat thus setting up the path then running your windows copy ron temp at intel views are my own
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters this is the part that usually gets me while i am set to make money there usually are other things to be considered and debated that is the purpose of life like it or not stock prices and sales of a particular product are measures of success they can be measures of short term or long term success i think in ms case they are a good measure of their long term success the original post mentioned how it seems on this group that there are a large number of people attacking ms and not willing to accept anything positive about ms i was trying to make a point that the attacks are over emphasized and to look at the sales of ms products they definitely tell a different story i also think a large number of the attackers or debaters as you call them are highly technical look around in the real world people don t want to grep and auck and ls l they just want to push the buttons and get their job done on a reasonably priced piece of hardware that does not need a computer smart guy to load configure etc etc like it or not ms and the multitudes of business applications that exist to run under windows does this and does it well we are running pc s loaded with a complete suite of mostly ms windows applications in an administrative business function on a novell network running all software off the server it does the job quite well and if we had it to do over again we would pick windows again again i repeat to ms keep doing what you are doing you are doing a great job flame on thx dave l
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	bit access i have a gateway dx v does anyone know if i csn or can t duse bit access d d
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re floorplan layout program in article chemical watstar uwaterloo ca gmills chemical watstar uwaterloo ca phil trodwell writes hi i m desperately seeking a preferably shareware program to assist in the architectural layout of a house floorplan does something like this exist other than basic cad programs please e mail i don t always get to the news before it expires thanks in advance phil trodwell the best i ve seen is visio runs under windows it s not shareware however gary williamson aka wwilliam polaris orl mmc com orlando florida
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	head to head win and os after hearing endless debate read name calling over which os is better dos and windows or os and finally having enought resourses to play with a couple of different operating systems i have decided to put the two products to a head to head test as so many fellow newsposters have suggested i have however no desire whatsoever to use a version of os which wont really do what it says i e run windows apps os will not run windows apps in enhansed mode something that most larger windows apps require but os which is supposed to be in beta test is supposed to i have heard that os beta is available via ftp and i was wondering if anyone knew where to obtain a copy i would appreciate any information as i would like once and for all to establish for myself which is the best os for my needs robbie z shererrg sfasu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	odd mouse behavior hi one of my coworkers is having a very odd problem his mouse works fine in dos applications if you load them from the c prompt under windows the mouse pointer is present but does not move even if you load a dos app under windows the mouse doesn t work the computer is a zeos sx w diamond speedstar vga running ms dos and windows mouse driver is microsoft s i ve tried switching the mouse from com to com i ve tried a different mouse i ve reinstalled mouse drv and i can t get the blamed thing to work the only difference between his system and mine where the mouse works perfectly is that he has an expansion card with an additional parallel and serial port could that cause the problem thanks in advance for any help carl fink carlf panix com c fink genie if you can t laugh at yourself then you can bet that everyone else is doing so ed johnston
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re hot key for screen saver well renaming screensavers scr to exe and running them as has been pposted i haven t tried changing win ini but should have same effect shows me the setup dialog box butdoesn t enable the saver mickey
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re questions about dos external join command in article srg c i spud hyperion com the author writes i am setting up my dos unix box on a m ide and a m scsi drive and was wondering about the use of the ms dos join command i like the way it sets things up since i won t have to stick with the c d e crap that dos enforces i like how it would mimic mount points of unix filesystems i have heard that there were problems with using it or at least under older versions of dos please tell i have been using the join command for many years now mostly with good success in duplicating unix style file mounts you will hear lots of people cursing join because they confuse it with the dos append command a truely gnarly hack but don t believe them you also will hear people saying that microsoft recommends that you not use join but in microsoft s windows workgroups resource toolkit the following appears join an ms dos utility works fine with windows for workgroups if you do not change the state of the joined drives during a windows for workgroups session this includes adding or removing joined drives from within windows for workgroups we recommend that you do not use join when running windows setup or windows for workgroups within this caveat join appears to be valid under windows however i have found a couple of applications that don t deal well with filesystems that have been mounted using join in particular the worst offender is word for windows x it gets very confused when you edit and then try to save a file on a joined drive it wants to create the saved file as nnnnn tmp in the current dir then delete the old file and rename the nnnnn tmp file to the doc file unfortunately wfw usually writes the nnnnn tmp file in some idiotic place other than the current directory often in the root dir of the joined filesystem but not always then after deleting the original doc file it can t find the nnnnn tmp file to rename it unless you search your disk systems the document is gone i have also found subtle problems using the mks toolkit from a dos box when joined filesystems are present i used to join c temp with a meg ramdisk but mks sometimes gets confused when doing an ls on the c temp dir and misses some files in the temp dir this is difficult to reproduce but it goes away totally when join is not used i think this is a windows problem rather than mks s since it works ok under raw dos so i would suggest that you can use join but be aware that it may not be as robust you would like wouldn t it be real great to mount network drives i e z under the main file tree rather than having all those darned drive letters unfortunately join won t let you do it there was talk on the net about a simple patch to let join work on network drives but i don t remember the source it s too bad the join command is not better implemented since it would avoid using all those stupid drive letters i realize that messdos was meant for casual even ignorant users so mounting all the drives in one file tree might be confusing but it looks like ms is going to carry this over into windows nt another os meant for casual even igorant users not with all it s old family system baggage maybe ms needs a recovery group so they can get on with life jerome jerry schneider domain jls atg com aspen technology group uucp uunet csn atglab jls po box ft collins co voice
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	playing midi music on ati stereo f x cd sound card i am running windows in enhanced mode the sound card i have is the ati stereo f x cd sound card which claims adlib and soundblaster compatibility using windows mediaplayer i can play the midi files that came with my sound card however i can t play any of the midi files that belong to the winjammer midi editor that i ftp d from cica i also can t play any midi files i generate with muzika also from cica when i try to play the files a dialog box pops up saying that the music may not play right and it has a checkbox asking me if i wish to disable this message in the future is this normal or do i have something set wrong i would really like to be able to write music on muzika and have my computer play it i also ftp d the game dare dream for windows from cica and its music won t play either i get the same dialog box the midi mappers that i have are ati ext midi ati opl midi and vanilla i have tried using all three any help suggestions shoulders to cry on etc would be appreciated very much john p john punshon punshon cs usask ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hot key for switching to the program manager in win one may assign hot keys for the program items within the program manager how about the program manager itself is there one already or is there some way to assign one regards ake ake knutsson email knut tts lth se dept of communication systems uunet tts lth se knut lund institute of technology sweden fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article may klaava helsinki fi jliukkon klaava helsinki fi juha matti liukkonen writes let me pose a question how many ms dos users are out there who have no access to the net but would probably find this feature useful too ie your suggestion implies that microsoft is relying on the shareware or pd products to fill the gaps on dos or did i misunderstand your statement shareware is available from the net magazines distributors clubs friends and bulletin boards i don t think people have any problems getting hold of it fill gaps in dos there s no need for many people dos provides more services than i need as it is i just run windows on top of it btw my windows must be an operating system it provides a disk operating system that dos can t access nfs thomas beagle thomas datamark co nz work o technical writer thomas cavebbs welly gen nz home wellington nz long ears make good handles
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters lots of stuff deleted because i felt like it this ms bashing has definitely lost all its humor value i think most of the people posting are forgetting that most users of ms products do not even know about internet and unix is that very unfriendly place where bizzare abreviations replace the rather comfortable abreviations they know and the abreviations have subtle differences between the different vendors while pc users tend to customize any windowing setup they can not do much with their command line so to most of the computer users in the world ms product symbolize quality ms has made their life easier and more productive and to them that is quality they do not care about what innovative things ms has done other than to make their life with a computer one heck of a lot easier you may know better than most computer users in this world but that will not change their perception face it until unix come up with a decent gui that is available to all variations of unix it just will not catch on with the mainstream of computer users we here on the net are not mainstream computer users brian disclaimer the opinions expressed are mine not those of bnr brian ws s st tt user developer if i wanted a computer to play games bell northern research on i d buy an amiga however i have research triangle park nc real work to do so please get lost
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re winfax files in ascii format in zhao may sparta nmsu edu zhao nmsu edu z zhao writes currently we are using winfax software to receive send fax on our pcs it works pretty well the problem is that all received files are in bit map format which take lots of hd space i have been told there is some programs that can do pattern recognition of the raster characters in fax in files and translate them into ascii code then store the file in ascii format would you like to tell me whether or not there is such software package to do such translation if there is one where can i find it is any such software package on public domain what version of winfax do you have the newest version has an ocr optical character recognition built in what this means is that it can take a fax ie a letter and convert it into ascii so that one can edit the document w o re typing it however i found that the ocr that comes packaged with winfax does not work as well as omnipage professional also by delrina software so once again winfax ver has what you are looking for good luck regards zizi
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows vs communication proagrams in article lee seas ucla edu victorf wright seas ucla edu victor friedman writes can anybody tell me what exactly windows does to the com ports why can t i run a single communication program under windows i have procomm quicklink commo neither of them respond to modem commands after the connection has finally been established although i m still able to manage vick victorf seas ucla edu this is one of the trickiest problems w win personally i run telix for dos under windows just fine and ve been waiting for the win version froever but i have to admit i am the exception to the rule i have tried installing various dos comm progs on friends machines most of them w big problems some of the stuff you have to lookout for always run the prog thru a pif never by calling its exe in the pif always toggle on lock application memory actually this is something ms points out in the readme wri file and is especially critical for downloading go under ctrl panel enh and check for all your com ports alway warn it will help u w debugging this thing and it s healthier check where are u running the mouse from com port check the com port addresses from your bios setup and from ctrl panel ports setup advanced these might help u if yu still have problems get and buy procomm win hope it helps somehow costas malamas georgia institute of technology oit ua oit doesn t pay me enough to share their opinions internet ccastco prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re head to head win and os in article may ccsvax sfasu edu z shererrg ccsvax sfasu edu writes after hearing endless debate read name calling over which os is better dos and windows or os and finally having enought resourses to play with a couple of different operating systems i have decided to put the two products to a head to head test as so many fellow newsposters have suggested i have however no desire whatsoever to use a version of os which wont really do what it says i e run windows apps os will not run windows apps in enhansed mode something that most larger windows apps require but os which is supposed to be in beta test is supposed to i have heard that os beta is available via ftp and i was wondering if anyone knew where to obtain a copy i would appreciate any information as i would like once and for all to establish for myself which is the best os for my needs i don t think the question is will os x x run windows y y apps now a more important question is will subsequent os versions continue to run apps from subsequent windows versions in the future can it keep up will a future os run windows apps ole is very complex and is the sign of things to come after this fall i believe ibm no longer has any rights to view microsoft code after that the only way to maintain some sort of compatibility is to reverse engineer would you want to reverse engineer an ole application john a grant jagrant emr emr ca airborne geophysics geological survey of canada ottawa
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re challenge to microsoft supporters in article c ra igc feenix metronet com jack feenix metronet com jack hudler writes still after the impact of all the ito s at ibm all that s left of its employee base are the deadbeats i suspect we ll see about st quarter boy are you going to look silly in a couple of weeks brett d sherron ferrell email bferrell uceng uc edu u of cincy catch the cats college of engineering if you can
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	microsoft bbs number hi can anyone tell me what microsoft bbs number is i tried the one that is given on the dos upgrade manual but that number never answered the call thanks please email
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re solution multi setups on standalone easy rhudson gomez intel com ron a hudson writes peter goudswaard goudswaa fraser sfu ca wrote setup deleted finally in order to run your specific version of windows you must simply change the path to include c winmastr and your specific configuration path e g c winwife you could get fancy and use batch files environment variables or a menuing system to do this other stuff delete if you happen to be running the new msdos you could use multi setup to provide a menu with a menu choice for each person using the machine power up select your name the menu will use your personal sections of config sys and autoexec bat thus setting up the path then running your windows copy ron excellent suggestion ron and as a further comment on dos if you decide to install windows standalone configuration completely in more than directory on your hard drive and use dos to jump to a specific copy for each user you could be saving yourself many megs of disk space if you use the setup n and a technique peter goudswaard goudswaa sfu ca preferred pgoudswa cln etc bc ca pgoudswa cue bc ca there s no gift like the present goudswaard s observation
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	s card problems i posted a message here some time ago asking why my mouse was so jumpy well i think i know why and it doesn t have anything to do with the mouse it seems to be the video driver here s why i think that a few weeks ago i helped a guy install the driver for his s video card for windows he had been using the normal windows default vga driver we don t have the same kind of mouse mine is microsoft serial and his is an off brand serial mouse his mouse worked fine until i installed the s v driver on his system then his mouse became really jumpy too is there anything i can do i need high resolution since i display lots of stuff on my screen ami pro pegasus mail for windows wp office sorry nondisclosure and alot more i noticed there are s drivers on ftp cica but they are the same version that i already have and they are no help i already tried sean eckton computer support representative college of fine arts and communications d hfac brigham young university provo ut hfac csr byu edu ecktons ucs byu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re hot key for screen saver in article may seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes well renaming screensavers scr to exe and running them as has been pposted i haven t tried changing win ini but should have same effect shows me the setup dialog box butdoesn t enable the saver mickey start the renamed saver vid the commandline option s frank
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article may klaava helsinki fi jliukkon klaava helsinki fi juha matti liukkonen writes let me pose a question how many ms dos users are out there who have no access to the net but would probably find this feature useful too ie your suggestion implies that microsoft is relying on the shareware or pd products to fill the gaps on dos or did i misunderstand your statement it s called the free enterprize system i suggests that those who wish to enhance dos do it an sell it or give it away microsoft can t be everything to everyone period
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re challenge to microsoft supporters in article c q cc uceng uc edu bferrell cicada occ uc edu brett ferrell writes in article c ra igc feenix metronet com jack feenix metronet com jack hudler writes still after the impact of all the ito s at ibm all that s left of its employee base are the deadbeats i suspect we ll see about st quarter boy are you going to look silly in a couple of weeks perhaps
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re head to head win and os in article may ccsvax sfasu edu z shererrg ccsvax sfasu edu writes after hearing endless debate read name calling over which os is better dos and windows or os and finally having enought resourses to play with a couple of different operating systems i have decided to put the two products to a head to head test as so many fellow newsposters have suggested i have however no desire whatsoever to use a version of os which wont really do what it says i e run windows apps os will not run windows apps in enhansed mode something that most larger windows apps require but os which is supposed to be in beta test is supposed to i have heard that os beta is available via ftp and i was wondering if anyone knew where to obtain a copy i would appreciate any information as i would like once and for all to establish for myself which is the best os for my needs robbie z shererrg sfasu edu if you wait until may the th you will be able to buy the new os since it will be released at comdex that day it will run windows apps and windows enh mode if you can t wait then you can ftp a months old beta version from ftp os nmsu edu but this version is probably a lot slower than the final product when you do your test please have in mind that a single tasking system will always be faster at doing one task the real power of os lies in the multitasking and can t really be measured by a stopwatch happy benchmarking hans the whales of the atlantic and the people of the faroe islands have coexisted in perfect harmony for the last years no matter what any urban navel contamplator without any real relation to the coherence of the nature says
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re head to head win and os in article may emr emr ca jagrant emr emr ca john grant writes i don t think the question is will os x x run windows y y apps now a more important question is will subsequent os versions continue to run apps from subsequent windows versions in the future john a grant jagrant emr emr ca airborne geophysics geological survey of canada ottawa but the most important question is will there be any os apps so we don t have to load windows in the future and maybe the question of the future will be will windows x run os y y apps now regards hans the whales of the atlantic and the people of the faroe islands have coexisted in perfect harmony for the last years no matter what any urban navel contamplator without any real relation to the coherence of the nature says
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re head to head win and os i really think you are comparing apples and oranges nobody disputes that os has more big os features the question is does an individual need the power the sales of windows vs os answer that question the next question is even if i did want to run os and i had this big monster machine to run it on is there a diverse set of applications to run on it that allow me to productviely do my work go to your local computer store to answer this one i think the comparison you need to be doing is nt vs os this is where the new battle lines will be drawn windows has won the single user pc war the next one will be the client server war and the entries are nt os unix and netware granted these os s will be eventually scaled down to be attractive to the single user pc and that will probably be phase ii of the war who wins only the marketplace will tell but it sure is fun watching and arguing about it tho thx dave l
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	memory does anyone know how to absolute memory locations in windows ie hardware that is memory mapped at very high addresses mb and above please reply by email thanks david
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re data segments and memory model usage hello phjm you wrote firstly does windows in enhanced mode do anything special with dlls that have been compiled using the large memory model no we are being told that even in enhanced mode windows will load dlls into real memory below k and page lock it no my second question relates to static data inside dlls is there any way at all to get multiple instances of the static data segment dgroup no but you can allocate real static data within code segments when you need more dynamic memory you can allocate data on the global heap you can forget most of what was written about memory management under you have paged virtual memory you can lock every block without hampering the memory manager you can use far pointer everytime without always lock unlocking the memory block an besides dll s are mostly just disguised exe s that happen to be called by another task karl karl w geitz hauptstr w salzgitter kwgeitz s link escape de tel fax cis bix geitzkwg crosspoint v
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article may samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes i also think a large number of the attackers or debaters as you call them are highly technical look around in the real world people don t want to grep and auck and ls l they just want to push the buttons and get their you mean grep unix is case dependent and awk where did you get auck from mark
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re demonstration creation program wanted in article c v ro ug cs vu nl martijn cs vu nl lemmens ml writes i m looking for a program or toolkit with which it is possible to create demonstrations very fast with a demonstration i mean a collection of screens the one that is looking to the demonstration should be able to make choices by pressing buttons to change screens hypertext each screen will contain a question text or bitmap and a few answers buttons it should be possible to play music and or show animations film i ve heard of animator pro and visual basic but i don t know what these can do autodesk animator is a good tool the one i like is show partner fx if you want it i could give a copy to you i did a lot of advertising with it it lets you create both graphics any resolution and text frames run it all as a film you can make choices and include music i guess that s just what you need if you re really interested email me vick victor friedman victorf seas ucla edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mac disks in windows in article uupcb hal k com scott lynn hal k com scott lynn writes well i do alot of graphic design work and i am remaining loyal to dos windows instead of macs my college isn t though and i can only scan images on macintosh does anyone know of a program that can read mac disks the apple file exchange on the nac that writes to dos disks probably leaves me visibly older during every session i want to do the transfer in windows instead macsee zip on ftp cica indiana edu is supposed to read and write mac disks i ve never tried it though good luck c j callison whale st usm edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	my os is better than your os so there was challenge to ms supporters haven t we wasted enough bandwidth on this silly discussion already please no flames let sanity prevail richard maclennan
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mac disks in windows macsee zip on ftp cica indiana edu is supposed to read and write mac disks i ve never tried it though good luck i just tried it but i can t say that it works cause it doesn t read k disks it only reads mb if there a program that does read k disks please let me know
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article c c k yk news rich bnr ca bjgrier bnr ca brian grier writes i think most of the people posting are forgetting that most users of ms products do not even know about internet and unix is that very unfriendly place where bizzare abreviations replace the rather comfortable abreviations they know and the abreviations have subtle differences between the different vendors while pc users tend to customize any windowing setup they can not do much with their command line you can t customize a command line interface where have you been i can change the prompt i can make aliases so someone like me who is used to say ls can type it on my dos machine and still get a directory listing and under unix if i don t like the command line interface i throw it out and get a different one csh bash ksh sh etc so to most of the computer users in the world ms product symbolize quality ms has made their life easier and more productive and to them that is quality they do not care about what innovative things ms has done other than to make their life with a computer one heck of a lot easier you may know better than most computer users in this world but that will not change their perception this is true face it until unix come up with a decent gui that is available to all variations of unix it just will not catch on with the mainstream of computer users we here on the net are not mainstream computer users a decent gui for all variations of unix lessee what about motif or the stuff from mit twm comes to mind those are pretty standard heck an xwindows program runs like it likes to all the end user has to really know is how to manipulate the actual windows with the mouse and since it is a gui it s graphical and a bit easier to figure out something the windows people have been pressing down our throats for some time now the thing i fear is that there will be a gap between the normal users running windows all flavors and the other power users running unix and other more advanced oses at least right now dos is still pretty much king i can bring a copy of my latest whiz bang programming demo over to my friends house and since we both run dos he can enjoy it too agrier gompers gompers edu or tfinn crash cts com preferred
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re creating a batch file from windows nt in sasswb k sasswb unx sas com scott bass writes i saw another post on this list the subject was something like is vi available for windows in which someone said that vi make awk and ksh was available with microsoft toolkit what is that product is it a separate product or part of windows ksh would do what i need if i could count on it at all nt sites i imagine that was the mks toolkit from mortice kern systems another third party add in and a good one too nick langmaid nick brimbank apana org au melbourne australia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	do we need sdk as well as ddk the microsoft windows device driver kit ddk documentation blurb states that the user must separately acquire the microsoft windows software development kit sdk which contains the windows tools to build the drivers if we are using borland c with application frameworks is this necessary we also have a copy of the microsoft press programmer s reference library books which normally comes with the sdk and microsoft macro assembler why is the sdk neccessary for development of virtual device drivers steven murray posted on behalf of brian davies
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re re challenge to microsoft supporters in article c uq ii feenix metronet com jack feenix metronet com jack hudler writes in article twalls vo ncc d demon co uk twalls ncc d demon co uk tim walls writes but i don t want to have to run blasted windows every time i want to delete a tree it is absolutely ludicrous to load a hog like that just to delete some files it would be like requiring a crane to change the tyre on a car then why don t you download som of the public domain utilitys the do exactly what you want an shut up why should he have to this sort of thing should be included how about the millions of people who don t have access to pd libraries over networks just because people can work around it doesn t mean that something shouldn t be done to remedy the situation mark
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	stop message received running windows application menu i am running windows on a sx mhz with five megs of memory the motherboard came with one meg and i added the four megs this past weekend they were x simms i had installed in the application menu ms dos command park up till today it parked the disk from the application menu without any problem when attempting to park the heads today i received the following message stop this application has violated system integrity due to an invalid general protection fault and will be terminated what does this message mean thanks david de trolio detrolio andromeda rutgers edu we in the united states can have increased revenue without punishing or penalizing those who have obtained personal and economic achievements
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	problem with winqvt net and dos i have been using winqvt net under win dos for quite sometime without any problem i recently installed dos on my pc and i cannot run winqvt net any more i keep getting packet received for invalid port reset sent messages on the console window i can t get more than telnet window and can t use ftp any suggestions would be greatly appreciated thanks george kontoravdis condor ccwf cc utexas edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	anyone heard of deltree brandon wise bwise nyx cs du edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters as long as we re bashing typography csympc scs leeds ac uk m p conmy writes unix is case dependent yes unix is case dependent pete gontier ec technology gurgle netcom com microsoft windows like putting lipstick on a chicken
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re hot key for screen saver louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes well renaming screensavers scr to exe and running them as has been pposted i haven t tried changing win ini but should have same effect shows me the setup dialog box butdoesn t enable the saver mickey try exe s s for save screen c for config defaults to c the question is not if a tree falls in the forest and no one sees or hears did it fall but rather how many koalas can that one tree take out tim cpsg com au tim fox cp software pty ltd acn ph cato street east hawthorn fax victoria australia acsnet tim cpsg com au the question is not if a tree falls in the forest and no one sees or
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mac disks in windows in article t efv pj binkley cs mcgill ca gel binkley cs mcgill ca gilles khouzam writes macsee zip on ftp cica indiana edu is supposed to read and write mac disks i ve never tried it though good luck i just tried it but i can t say that it works cause it doesn t read k disks it only reads mb if there a program that does read k disks please let me know i m not sure that this is possible due to the way the mac writes the k disk i think the way the sectors are set up are different enough that a pc can t read it this is a hardware problem which software cannot correct hope this helps and correct me if i m wrong
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re re challenge to microsoft supporters in article may gps leeds ac uk csympc scs leeds ac uk m p conmy writes in article c uq ii feenix metronet com jack feenix metronet com jack hudler writes in article twalls vo ncc d demon co uk twalls ncc d demon co uk tim walls writes but i don t want to have to run blasted windows every time i want to delete a tree it is absolutely ludicrous to load a hog like that just to delete some files it would be like requiring a crane to change the tyre on a car then why don t you download som of the public domain utilitys the do exactly what you want an shut up why should he have to this sort of thing should be included how about the millions of people who don t have access to pd libraries over networks just because people can work around it doesn t mean that something shouldn t be done to remedy the situation these are perfectly valid points and i agree i m glad we ms are starting to remedy this situation with dos and it will get better in future releases you do need to be aware of some history however in the mid late s ms s point of view was that os was going to take over the world and dos would be phased out as such resources for dos and windows for that matter development were mostly redirected to os the theory was to keep just enough resources on dos to support people until they started using os so utilities and such for dos fell by the wayside then windows hit the market os flopped x at least x seems to be doing a little better but its future is still cloudy and people either stayed with their dos x and x apps or moved to windows about that point in time ms made its decision to drop os for dos windows in the short term and windows nt in the long term dos much improved over dos x and x was the first result of ms s refocussing on dos and windows version takes things somewhat further and i suspect future versions will offer even more in terms of real os features i work on nt and have no real clue about what my coworkers over in dosland are doing but i do know that there are a heck of a lot more of them than there were a few years ago dave of course these are my opinions if you want ms s opinions as a pr person
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	w w tables and hplj ii printer after setting up a very large pages table in word for windows i asked word to print it to my hp laserjet ii worked fine at first after much editing of the table contents but not structure output requests now kick the lj into manual feed mode for the document containing the table other documents without tables print correctly where should i look and what should i change to get the document with the long table to use the paper drawer rather than kick into manual feed mode i believe i ve tried all the obvious printer manager changes as well as replacing the hppcl lp files with archived versions thanks for any and all help peter peter palij internet pbp columbia edu columbia university graduate school of business uris hall new york ny
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	tiff file viewer needed hello i am in need of a file viewer for bit tiff images to run under windows if it matters alternatively a package to run an x server on top of windows would do very well unfortunately the budget for this is limited so whatever i end up using has to be public domain or very inexpensive thanks in advance for any help john chapman cs sfu ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re tiff file viewer needed in article may cs sfu ca chapman cs sfu ca john chapman writes hello i am in need of a file viewer for bit tiff images to run under windows if it matters alternatively a package to run an x server on top of windows would do very well unfortunately the budget for this is limited so whatever i end up using has to be public domain or very inexpensive thanks in advance for any help john chapman cs sfu ca paintshop pro for windows is a fantastic product it can handle tiff gif bmp pcx and many other formats displaying them and converting between them there is a shareware version of the program i assume it s available in the windows areas of the standard anonymous ftp locations i d try ftp cica indiana edu log in as ftp use your username as a password and look for a program called psp exe or something like that i have the registered version and the only major difference i can detect is that the unregistered version pops up a message when you start the program asking you to please register it once again fantastic software up to bits huge images everything brian brian kasper aka prisoner my hovercraft is full of eels the aerospace corporation internet kasper aerospace aero org
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mac disks in windows in t agf agate berkeley edu miyamoto ucsee berkeley edu carleton a y miyamoto writes in article t efv pj binkley cs mcgill ca gel binkley cs mcgill ca gilles khouzam writes macsee zip on ftp cica indiana edu is supposed to read and write mac disks i ve never tried it though good luck i just tried it but i can t say that it works cause it doesn t read k disks it only reads mb if there a program that does read k disks please let me know i m not sure that this is possible due to the way the mac writes the k disk i think the way the sectors are set up are different enough that a pc can t read it this is a hardware problem which software cannot correct hope this helps and correct me if i m wrong you re right you cannot read or write a mac or apple ii k disk or apple ii disk without extra hardware however mac mb disks can be read and written in a pc hd drive with software only this should probably be added to every pc and mac faq file it sure gets asked enough
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	chameleon nfs ne card hi i got a ne compatible ethernet card and i just received my copy of chameleon nfs unfortunately it is not compatible with the ne only ne or ne what is the latest version number for chameleon nfs did soemone tackle this problem thanks for help f popineau e mail popineau ese metz fr popineau loria fr voice mail surface mail ecole superieure d electricite rue edouard belin f metz cedex france
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters mike schleppo bocaraton ibm com mike dahmus writes in may microsoft com jimfr microsoft com jim francis writes note i have been working for ms for the past years i have been a developer for the past os is technically superior to windows considering that ms makes more money per copy of os sold than ibm and we co wrote most of it differences between os and os os had about half the memory requirements os was quicker even at half the memory os was much more stable oh and one more thing ibm did os by themselves yes a lot of what os has in common with os x was written by you guys however many of the things that made os so much more successful win os workplace shell than previous versions were ibm work so we co wrote it may be technically accurate but it s really a red herring as the bits that are selling the product weren t written by you don t forget seamless win apps on os ms couldn t do it viz wlo but ibm managed to do it right tom hatton hatton cgl ucsf edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters win os is ibm work you make me laugh re writing couple of thousands lines of code to make windows compatible with your dpmi implementation does not make the rest of windows ibm work i don t think ms has anything to brag about when it comes to following dpmi but then consistency is the hobgoblin etc i suppose tom hatton hatton cgl ucsf edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re hot key for switching to the program manager from article may lth se by knut tts lth se ake knutsson in win one may assign hot keys for the program items within the program manager how about the program manager itself is there one already or is there some way to assign one put progman with the hotkey in your startup group should do it zi
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re challenge to microsoft supporters yes a lot of what os has in common with os x was written by you guys however many of the things that made os so much more successful win os workplace shell than previous versions were ibm work yes certainly it was ibm that wrote the windows code c
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help with w scan can somebody help me out of this i just installed the version of mcafree anti virus program and when i tried to scan the entire hard disk i got the message of sorry i can t open xxxx for a couple of files including the wscan exe this didn t happen before in previous version nor appear on my friend s machine thankx
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows exit problem hello i have a problem with my window program sometimes when i save settings of program manager the system corrupt one or more grp files and progman exe can t open it on next start thanks for any answer chrobert
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	old irish gaelic truetype font synopsis of replies re irish gaelic truetype font wanted synopsis i wrote can anyone tell me where i can find an ms windows truetype font that will give me the characters used in writing irish gaelic in the old style for example in this font the letter t would look something like a c with a horizontal bar sitting on the top and the letter g would look something like an s with a horizontal bar sitting on the top many thanks to those who responded to my question unfortunately i have had no luck in actually getting such a font and a lot of people interested in geting one and so i have decided to create my own truetype font fitting that description this font is based on that used in the issue of dineen s dictionary and is typical of that found in irish books from the early part of the century this may take me some time to do in my limited spare time but i ll make it available to anyone who is interested when it is ready the responses i received are summerised below kevin donnelly caoimhin smo ac uk mentioned that michael everson everson irlearn ucd ie had developed some clo gaelach fonts for the macintosh and may be able to advise me i contacted michael and he told me that he has three fonts available for the macintosh and that he will eventually port them to the pc but that he will be charging ir about for each one pbryant ukelele gcr com mentioned that he uses two font that have a nice irish gaelic look to them these are durrow and american uncial normal i don t know where you can get these but i don t think that they have the effects i am looking for finally rhiannon netcom com rhia mentioned that the meath font included in the casady greene fluent laser fonts package is very much like what i was describing i faxed casady greene for info but got no reply so that s it i ll post these newsgroups when i make my font available colum twomey
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	diamond windows conflict hello i have some problems with my diamond stealth local bus graphic card when i try to start windows my system stop and display no free files handles cannot load command system halted it s perhaps a bios setup problem but i m not used to my ami bios setup if somebody can explain me how to setup shadow video rom others shadow rom and also how to config the two advenced setup for a best utilisation of my graphic card thanks for any answer ch robert
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	best shareware rograms i know that there is a list of the best shareware and public domain programs for windows at the cica ftp site but unfortunately it is a year old the list author made it sound like the list was going to be updated every month is it still being updated does anyone else compile a similar list also are there any individual suggestions as to what the best shareware public domain programs are i m interested in good software in just about every category please try and include the ftp site and exact file name if possible in your post thanks sam siockman leland stanford edu it will be good david broza
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re anyone heard of deltree it is the new command with dos that allows you to erase your directory and all the files in it without first erasing the individual files dana wells ba yes another male dana wilfrid laurier u waterloo on urban geographers well mach wlu ca plan it better
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wanted hypertext or alike for win in fact i m looking for a possibility to connect different peaces of information like in the windows help system and no i don t want to program such a system by myself the necessary effort and afford should be as small as possible thanx in advance thomas
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mac disks in windows in article t efv pj binkley cs mcgill ca gel binkley cs mcgill ca gilles khouzam writes macsee zip on ftp cica indiana edu is supposed to read and write mac disks i ve never tried it though good luck i just tried it but i can t say that it works cause it doesn t read k disks it only reads mb if there a program that does read k disks please let me know well you can t say that it don t work the inability to read k mac disks is not a sw problem rather it s a hardware limmitation on pcs i have seen a post about a program able to read non mb mac disks which comes with a watchamacalit ma memory s faling card which you just drop into a com port or something don t remember specifics tho peace mickey
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters brian grier bjgrier bnr ca wrote so to most of the computer users in the world ms product symbolize quality ms has made their life easier and more productive and to them that is quality they do not care about what innovative things ms has done other than to make their life with a computer one heck of a lot easier you may know better than most computer users in this world but that will not change their perception none of this changes the fact that msw is objectively inferior to its competition i have begun to learn in life that the masses never choose the best option available to them they choose the one which they have been conditioned to think is best i m glad i m not one of them kurt d bollacker duke university medical center kdb sunbar mc duke edu durham nc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re challenge to microsoft supporters in article may microsoft com cliffga microsoft com clifford garrett writes yes a lot of what os has in common with os x was written by you guys however many of the things that made os so much more successful win os workplace shell than previous versions were ibm work yes certainly it was ibm that wrote the windows code c isn t this the point of a better windows than windoze brett d sherron ferrell email bferrell uceng uc edu u of cincy catch the cats college of engineering if you can
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	word for windows problems in trying to use the equation editor in word for windows i get a couple of error messages along the lines of can t find font mt extra for default printer some characters my not be displayed or printed try installing equation editor again or reinstall a new printer similar for the font fences i know i have these fonts on my system but are unable to use them i have tried both of these solutions to no avail if anyone has had similar problems and has found a way to fix this could they let me know it is urgently required thanks jason cleeve j cleeve ieee org q comp sci hons elect eng t la trobe university australia email cleeve lucifer latrobe edu au jason cleeve j cleeve ieee org q comp sci hons elect eng t la trobe university australia email cleeve lucifer latrobe edu au
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mac disks in windows in article uupcb hal k com scott lynn hal k com scott lynn writes well i do alot of graphic design work and i am remaining loyal to dos windows instead of macs my college isn t though and i can only scan images on macintosh does anyone know of a program that can read mac disks the apple file exchange on the nac that writes to dos disks probably leaves me visibly older during every session i want to do the transfer in windows instead i would appreciate any info i want a windows program but i will gleefully settle for dos a program called mac ette allows you to read mac high density disks on a dos machine you can get the program from simtel i m not sure of the directory location jim powlesland internet powlesla acs ucalgary ca academic computing services voice university of calgary message calgary alberta canada t n n fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu kurt bollacker writes none of this changes the fact that msw is objectively inferior to its competition do you mean that msw is objectively inferior in some respects which is trivially true that it is objectively inferior in all respecets which is trivially false or do you mean something else what criteria have you chosen for your objective assesment are you sure that these criteria are themselves objective i have begun to learn in life that the masses never choose the best option available to them they choose the one which they have been conditioned to think is best i m glad i m not one of them no comment
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re word for windows problems in article may lugb latrobe edu au cleeve lucifer latrobe edu au jason cleeve writes in trying to use the equation editor in word for windows i get a couple of error messages along the lines of can t find font mt extra for default printer some characters my not be displayed or printed try installing equation editor again or reinstall a new printer similar for the font fences i know i have these fonts on my system but are unable to use them i have tried both of these solutions to no avail if anyone has had similar problems and has found a way to fix this could they let me know it is urgently required thanks it s back congratulations you ve just discovered a very nasty and very frequently ecountered bug in the word setup program once you know what is wrong it is quite easy to fix go into the fonts dialog under control panel and select the two fonts mt extra and fences delete them but only delete the list entries not the disk files now select add and add the fonts mt extra plain and fences plain close the font box close control panel and restart word everything should be alright now does anyone know if microsoft has fixed this thing yet they have to know about it by now it s been so frequently reported daniel silevitch dmsilev athena mit edu massachusetts institute of technology
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	logic of backup i have been backing up my hard drive ever since i had to re install everything from scratch after a crash learned the hard way didn t i i am using a windows based backup program actually norton and i began wondering about the logic of this sure if i accidentally delete a file i can get it from the archive but what if my disk crashes again i would not be able to start windows to run the backup program note by crash i mean there was some error message that prevented the machine from booting properly i think i gave up too early but i didn t have the time patience tools to figure out exactly what the problem was my hard drive needed cleaning up anyway yeah right this whole scenario is complicated by the fact that i am using stacker so i think there are possibilities i m right if my disk really crashes i would at least have to re install dos and windows to get the backup program working i m wrong there is an easy way to make a mirror of a hard disk that can easily restore it s state from scratch the polls are open tom ioerger univeristy of illinois cs grad student ioerger cs uiuc edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu kurt bollacker writes brian grier bjgrier bnr ca wrote so to most of the computer users in the world ms product symbolize quality ms has made their life easier and more productive and to them that is quality they do not care about what innovative things ms has done other than to make their life with a computer one heck of a lot easier you may know better than most computer users in this world but that will not change their perception none of this changes the fact that msw is objectively inferior to its competition this is indeed true i prefer windows nt it is certainly much better than microsoft windows dos o wolfgang strobl wolfgang strobl gmd de gmd gesellschaft fuer mathematik und datenverarbeitung mbh schloss birlinghoven p o box include w sankt augustin germany std disclaimer hpp
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters brian grier bjgrier bnr ca wrote so to most of the computer users in the world ms product symbolize quality ms has made their life easier and more productive and to them that is quality they do not care about what innovative things ms has done other than to make their life with a computer one heck of a lot easier you may know better than most computer users in this world but that will not change their perception excuse me are you one of those people who enjoy working w win come talk to a house mate of mine and tell him how productive his life is when he encountered yet another sudden appearence of the dos prompt while cutting and pasting in win or an empty win screen without any tasks running i e esc brings up an empty list progman has done it again leo there s klingons on the starboard bow leo mekenkamp scrape em off jim klikspaanweg lz leiden the netherlands mekenkamp stpc wi leidenuniv nl leo sthp wi leidenuniv nl
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re head to head win and jg after this fall i believe ibm no longer has any rights to jg view microsoft code after that the only way to maintain jg some sort of compatibility is to reverse engineer would jg you want to reverse engineer an ole application don t they retain windows nt oem status if so that gives them nt source code and since windows is headed toward nt win s win c slmr a t a g l i n e m e a s u r i n g g a u g e the file bank bbs pcboard v a e usr hst ds nodes rime internet largest clipper file collection in the world
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mac disks in windows in article may seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes in article t efv pj binkley cs mcgill ca gel binkley cs mcgill ca gilles khouzam writes macsee zip on ftp cica indiana edu is supposed to read and write mac disks i ve never tried it though good luck i just tried it but i can t say that it works cause it doesn t read k disks it only reads mb if there a program that does read k disks please let me know well you can t say that it don t work the inability to read k mac disks is not a sw problem rather it s a hardware limmitation on pcs i have seen a post about a program able to read non mb mac disks which comes with a watchamacalit ma memory s faling card which you just drop into a com port or something don t remember specifics tho peace mickey on all mb drives both mac and pc the disk spins at a constant rpm on k mac disk drives the spin rate of the disk is varied so that the tracks pass under the head at a constant speed a slower rotation for the outer tracks and a faster rotation for the inner tracks a pc needs special controller hardware to make this happen brian casey bnc macsch com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re logic of backup in the newer versions of norton backup for windows at least there is an emergency disk which will allow you to restore from tape without reinstalling dos windows i understand it s sort of cumbersome to use but not nearly as much as reinstalling everything steven a mccluney better to remain silent and be sam chensun m tamu edu thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubts i can hardly speak for myself
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re head to head win and os in article may samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes question the next question is even if i did want to run os and i had this big monster machine to run it on is there a diverse i think you re deliberatly overstating the requirements for os considering that os is a multi threaded true multitasking os and takes the place of dos and windows and more i actually think the requirements for os are very reasoable i also think that anyone using windows without megs of ram a and megs of hard drive space is beating their head against a wall those are also legitimate requirements for os in fact the requirements for windows and os are about equal the natural progress of things is for government to gain ground and for liberty to yield thomas jefferson brad kepley kepley photon phys unca edu voice days
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mac disks in windows because of the technology apple uses with their k disks ibm pc cant read them without special hardware m disks work more alike ibm s so we only can read m disks on a pc andy
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re head to head win and os i m waiting for june first to roll around when i can then get my hands on pc solaris unix for the intel chip i know that there are many of other unix possibilities out there but this includes the wabi windows api binary interface i think technology that wil run windows apps straight outta da box if this flies in enhanced mode then here s another contender to look out for in the corporate education market too big and complex for the home front windows mac sys will take those while win wkgrps nt os will fight it out for the small to mid businesses however once the powerpc becomes available especially in laptop notebook form then these will migrate into all markets the ability to connect up to a unix machine at work and yet still run windows mac apps at home is going to be real attractive to alot of people just my predictions mike mike bendtsen msbendts mtu edu elm st apt ccli senior technical consultant hancock mi michigan technological university
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mac disks in windows you re right you cannot read or write a mac or apple ii k disk or apple ii disk without extra hardware however mac mb disks can be read and written in a pc hd drive with software only this should probably be added to every pc and mac faq file it sure gets asked enough i agree that this should be added to some sort of faq list but we have strayed from the original topic our computer environment is pretty split between mac s and pc s i am lucky and get to have both on my desk but there are people who have pc s and need to share data with the mac users here the mac users have no problems because of package called dos mounter which automatically lets the mac read dos disks natively for the pc there is no equivilant that i know of both mac ette and macsee have been inconsistant under the dos platform and requires you to perform the activity in a dos program to selectively transport the files the question originally posed was if there is such a program that hooks into windows like a dll that will interpret the reading of a mac disk when it is in a pc and allow access to it through the standard file dialogs it is quite clear that this would only be available for the mb flopies t j fiske tfiske qualcomm com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	strange windows problem my windows installation has somehow gone awry whenever i try to run windows now the logo comes up ok but when it tries to enter windows itself the screen gets totally screwed up as if it s in the wrong graphics mode or something it s completely illegible although functional as i can still exit to dos with an alt e return combination i tried to reinstall windows again but if you recall halfway through the installation process install takes you into windows and there my graphics problem surfaces again so i cannot complete the re installation all this started after trying to get a game working on my system but my config sys and autoexec bat have been restored to what they were before this problem cropped up i m running a dx with a diamond stealth vram i ve resinstalled the stealth video drivers again but with no luck i m also using qemm and stacker but windows is installed on an un stacked partition and of course it worked perfectly before any email replies and suggestions would be appreciated thanks hutch
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re logic of backup in article c g j pk cs uiuc edu ioerger sophocles cs uiuc edu thomas ioerger writes so i think there are possibilities i m right if my disk really crashes i would at least have to re install dos and windows to get the backup program working using the software you re using i agree with you there what i did i installed dos windows and cpbackup functionally the same as your norton for the purposes of this discussion and used the dos backup command on just that much to restore i boot to the system diskette and use dos restore to read in that much then boot to windows and restore my full backups using cpb norton in your case overwriting what i ve just restored that allows me to keep this skeletal windows essentially unchanged with all my customization on the real copy done using the rd party backup utility i m wrong there is an easy way to make a mirror of a hard disk that can easily restore it s state from scratch seems possible if you can put skeletal versions of dos and your backup utility on a system floppy then you could restore it all on one go martin lodahl systems analyst capacity planning pacific bell malodah pacbell com sacramento ca usa if it s good for ancient druids runnin nekkid through the wuids drinkin strange fermented fluids it s good enough for me unk
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article strobl gmd de strobl gmd de wolfgang strobl writes in news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu kurt bollacker writes none of this changes the fact that msw is objectively inferior to its competition this is indeed true i prefer windows nt it is certainly much better than microsoft windows dos please apples to apples nt is a beta and as such cannot be accepted as a competitor to win it s not on the market same for os for a couple or weeks o wolfgang strobl wolfgang strobl gmd de btw cute sig brett d sherron ferrell email bferrell uceng uc edu u of cincy catch the cats college of engineering if you can
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re head to head win and os in article may mtu edu msbendts mtu edu michael scott bendtsen writes i m waiting for june first to roll around when i can then get my hands on pc solaris unix for the intel chip i know that there are many of other unix possibilities out there but this includes the wabi windows api binary interface i think technology that wil run windows apps straight outta da box it will certainly help to be able to run windows and dos apps but the only way that solaris or os or any other scheme is going to challenge microsoft is if they can somehow get the prices for solaris or os or whatever apps down to a dos competitive level everybody would rather run a solaris app on a solaris system and an os app on an os system they usually just can t afford a unix system because of the high prices for good unix software the natural progress of things is for government to gain ground and for liberty to yield thomas jefferson brad kepley kepley photon phys unca edu voice days
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article mekenkamp stpc wi leidenuniv nl mekenkamp stpc wi leidenuniv nl leo mekenkamp writes excuse me are you one of those people who enjoy working w win come talk to a house mate of mine and tell him how productive his life is when he encountered yet another sudden appearence of the dos prompt while cutting and pasting in win or an empty win screen without any tasks running i e esc brings up an empty list progman has done it again sigh don t know what your roomate is doing but it must be something wrong are there people who enjoy using windows yes i ll admit to it given a choice between a mac and windows i choose windows every time to start another flame thread iskandar taib the only thing worse than peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog is frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters jack feenix metronet com jack hudler writes it s called the free enterprize system i suggests that those who wish to enhance dos do it an sell it or give it away microsoft can t be everything to everyone period it has been done but the other companies don t have the marketing budgets that ms do dos for instance is everything that command com should have been but never could be under ms those who use it usually find it more addictive than crack cocaine but they have to rely on word of mouth for sales it seems to have worked pretty good so far but your corporate weenie manager type usually likes to see a big glossy ad in pc magazine that s okay marketing isn t a fundamental human right but they ve got a product that s superior to the dos command interpreter in every way they have a lot more to be proud of than ms does if ms really gave a damn they could duplicate it buy it outright they ve got the money or even use the old ruse of sending engineers out to help them with compatability issues and absconding with the technology dos is a mediocre product at a cheap price backed up by top notch marketing and vendor agreements the mediocre was excusable in the early days when it was someone else s hack but they ve had ten years to play with it an interesting thought on that most ms products that i m aware of in the last few years allow you to access the names of the designers and programmers through easter egg screens including windows or at least have the names buried in the files is there such a thing in dos and or are they too ashamed to have their names on it there s at least one fool in every married couple
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mac disks in windows gel binkley cs mcgill ca gilles khouzam writes macsee zip on ftp cica indiana edu is supposed to read and write mac disks i ve never tried it though good luck i just tried it but i can t say that it works cause it doesn t read k disks it only reads mb if there a program that does read k disks please let me know the easiest way to do this is if you can send the files accross the network this is much easier going from a mac to a pc because you don t have to worry about losing the resource fork of the file often a problem when sending binary files from a pc to a mac
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re challenge to microsoft supporters om in may microsoft com cliffga microsoft com clifford garrett writes yes a lot of what os has in common with os x was written by you guys however many of the things that made os so much more successful win os workplace shell than previous versions were ibm work yes certainly it was ibm that wrote the windows code cliff do you know the difference between windows and win os here s a helpful hint running windows under os is only possible in real mode in a dos box of course this is only possible with windows since windows no longer has a real mode the ability to run standard mode the ability to have an os windows clipboard the ability to run seamless and a few other things were all added by ibm to win os now everybody who is running windows in real mode in a dos box under os x raise your hand finally everybody who is running win os under os raise your hand get the picture cliff mike dahmus internet miked vnet ibm com vnet mdahmus at boca penpm development ibm ipnet mike schleppo bocaraton ibm com ibm personal systems disclaimer not an official ibm spokesman
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article strobl gmd de strobl gmd de wolfgang strobl writes this is indeed true i prefer windows nt it is certainly much better than microsoft windows dos how do you like it compared to os x mike
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	more info on windows help files here is the latest on relocating your help files to a server the winhelp function as i am told by ms does search your path so relocating ms windows helpfiles won t be a problem as long as you include the path to where you move them to however if an application has hardcoded the path into their code so that when winhelp is invoked it searches the given path i e winhelp hwnd c amipro for example then winhelp does not search your path and instead looks only to that directory where you have installed your software i tested this out on a variety of software packages i moved all my helpfiles to the drive z and included this in the path statement here is the results for different software packages norton desktop found helpfiles windows v for workgroups found helpfiles windows v found helpfiles ms powerpoint v found helpfiles ms word found helpfiles ms excel v a did not find helpfiles strange ms foxpro v for windows found helpfiles lotus amipro v did not find helpfiles procomm plus for windows did not find helpfiles i guess this is better than nothing but it would make sense to be able to specify a global path for helpfiles if anyone has any comments or if i can help anyone or if i left something out please let me know lhighley gozer idbsu edu thanks for the help from everyone especially jagrant emr emr ca more info on this topic as it develops
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article mekenkamp stpc wi leidenuniv nl mekenkamp stpc wi leidenuniv nl leo mekenkamp writes brian grier bjgrier bnr ca wrote so to most of the computer users in the world ms product symbolize quality ms has made their life easier and more productive and to them that is quality they do not care about what innovative things ms has done other than to make their life with a computer one heck of a lot easier you may know better than most computer users in this world but that will not change their perception excuse me are you one of those people who enjoy working w win come talk to a house mate of mine and tell him how productive his life is when he encountered yet another sudden appearence of the dos prompt while cutting and pasting in win or an empty win screen without any tasks running i e esc brings up an empty list progman has done it again leo there s klingons on the starboard bow leo mekenkamp scrape em off jim klikspaanweg lz leiden the netherlands mekenkamp stpc wi leidenuniv nl leo sthp wi leidenuniv nl been messin roun progman ini have ye i m gessing you ve been tuning the system that s the only way i can remember getting a blank screen from ctrl esc when one of the progman ini parameters was twinked to or can t remember i ve never seen win do something like that on her own captain tal
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re some info the dos msw meltdown is progressing nicely bruce dubbs bdubbs cs tamu edu wrote another comment at least you have ibm consultants trying to help i ve never heard of microsoft sending customer engineers to a client s organization to help solve problems could be wrong but if they do its not common knowledge microsoft has a division called microsoft consulting that does what ibm fes field engineers do however neither company just up and sends consultants to client sites both companies charge very high hourly rates for on site consulting unless the client has already paid an annual service contract barton wright molecular simulations inc voice bwright msi com burlington ma fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu kurt bollacker writes i agree no one ever definitively met my challenge only batted around semantics oh well i guess things did turn out as i expected hmmm i gave two examples which matched your objective criteria and your response was some subjective claptrap about them being lame you never did counter the fact that those examples fit your objective criteria one wonders who s playing semantic games here rick schaut uucp uunet uw beaver microsoft richs microsoft doesn t speak for me and i don t speak for microsoft
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	panasonic kp x truetype what s going on i have just added a panasonic kp x pin dot matrix printer to a sx i installed the appropriate windows printer driver i e one specifically for this printer but i m unable to persuade the poxy thing to print correctly what appears to be happening is that the truetype fonts don t get printed properly my experiments show that all graphic images for example a line drawing from corel draw print ok graphicsworkshop for windows happily prints gifs etc ms notepad and ms write will print correctly providing the font s in the text are printer fonts when i print truetype fonts some lines appear to be printed in the wrong order if i change the text font to a printer font the problem is eliminated i have tried using printer drivers for printers which the kx p snappy name emulates namely epsom lq and ibm proprinter x and the same problem occurs if there is some kind soul who can tell me just what the hell is going on i would be most chuffed david h
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	please help an amiga user find comfort in windows by night i m an amiga user by day i work with windows i d be much more comfortable in windows if i had two things a good personal information manager you know a calendar address book reminder list etc rolled into one clean interface a good file manager microsofts is very poor by my standards how about one that has a left and right window and allows file operations between them being able to launch programs from the same interface would be nice as well as text reading and graphics viewing those who are familiar with directory opus on the amiga know what i m looking for if anyone can steer me towards an ftp sight with these programs it would make my transition to windows a lot easier please reply via email as i rarely get to read this group thanks so much why would he be such a jerk i know that he doesn t smoke steve lombardi drugs and he doesn t do cocaine and he doesn t shoot stlombo acm rpi edu smack and he doesn t even drink beer why would he be such a fu ker to me ween why would he be such a jerk i know that he doesn t smoke steve lombardi drugs and he doesn t do cocaine and he doesn t shoot stlombo acm rpi edu smack and he doesn t even drink beer why would he be
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re old irish gaelic truetype font synopsis of replies ctwomey vms eurokom ie colum twomey comments finally rhiannon netcom com rhia mentioned that the meath font included in the casady greene fluent laser fonts package is very much like what i was describing i faxed casady greene for info but got no reply casady greene seems to be notoriously slow about responding as i ve heard from others who have contacted them they may not reply via fax but via snail mail give them time or contact them again rhia let joy and innocence prevail from the movie toys
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re please help an amiga user find comfort in windows stlombo eos acm rpi edu steve j lombardi writes by night i m an amiga user by day i work with windows i d be much more comfortable in windows if i had two things a good personal information manager you know a calendar address book reminder list etc rolled into one clean interface lotus organizer quick cheap pretty and has all of those features you want a good file manager microsofts is very poor by my standards you might look at one of the shell alternatives provided by third parties norton desktop for windows for instance personally i like file manager which comes with windows it s much faster than ndw s and the file manager that s part of windows for workgroups even has a decent button bar how about one that has a left and right window and allows file operations between them being able to launch programs from the same interface would be nice as well as text reading and graphics viewing those who are familiar with directory opus on the amiga know what i m looking for that first you can do with file manager but the others you ll need to look at ndw or pc tools for windows etc if anyone can steer me towards an ftp sight with these programs it would make my transition to windows a lot easier please reply via email as i rarely get to read this group thanks so much i haven t yet seen a decent freeware or even shareware shell but it may be just me nectar nirvana the absurd is the essential concept nectar world std com and the first truth a camus
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	experiences with dos i have been having trouble posting this article from within tin for over a week if you do get multiple copies my apologies here is a challenge to microsoft or microsort supporters to defend the pathetic state of dos as an upgrade distribution it is a long story but would make good reading for those who are interested in knowing the potential pitfalls of upgrading to dos that i have been able to notice after only about a week of playing around with it my envorinment ti travelmate winsx sx m ram m disk system bios version by texas instruments cl gd vga bios v a by cirrus logic quadtel advance power manager battery pro v b by texas instruments smart drive cache win dos parameters a b windows benchmark winbench tm v by zd labs after updgrading to dos i could not understand why certain things became so slow especially after i decided to try dblspace in the process of finding out why i discovered some interesting things disk performance with double space and smart drive while most things did not appear to slow down most of the time certain applications appeared to run very much slower what was interesting is that commands like chkdsk and defrag were running far too slowly to consider them useful by any standards i suspected double space ds and decided to measure its impact on my system using winbench tm the real disk winmark of for the original system as shipped from factory with dos and windowws became when upgraded to dos with ds thus there is an effective performance degradation of more than percent which did not really surprise me because i knew that ds compression must cost something specifically for short sequential reads up to bytes ds actually improves transfer rates by about because cpu being faster than i o more cpu cycles needed for ds is more than compensated by savings in i o cycles however for all other cases particularly large random writes the transfers take up to three times as long while the performance depends on the type of access i e random or sequential small or large transfer units on the average based on winbench s assumptions the disk slows down to half its speed the tests alone done in real mode see winbench and with smartdrv on do not say much except that it helps to put into those subjective statements like there is no noticable difference in performance or even that it will speed up disk access when you have a fast cpu and slow disk i o this explained why some applications ran markedly slower but not why chkdsk and defrag the latter especially too so long double space and windows dblspace will not run at all from within windows not even if you wanted to only to get information not modify anything or for that matter even check on its usage try fasthelp dblspace in a dos box within windows and you will see what i mean from the error message you get how narrow minded can a programer get i wonder yes this information can be obtained through the mstools dd add on to file manager but this mstools dll does not understand a compressed floppy use the dos supplement utility to create a compressed floppy if you dont know how to dos defragmenter is incompatible with ti apm defragmentation seemed to take too much time even so i waited patiently till it finished and then ran it again to just to confirm this confirmation dblspace def command for the m drive should take no more than seconds much faster on other defragmenters i have used but it took minutes i discovered that if i moved the mouse defragmentation checking ran faster the figure ticked more rapidly it dawned on me that this had to do with ti s battery saver advanced power management apm module which slows the clock down when it thinks that the cpu is idle and it obviously thought ds defragmentation was an idle process after disabling the ti s power saver this operation took only seconds microsft programmers think ti and gateway nomad users are idiots in the readme txt file you can find the the following running microsoft backup with ti and gateway nomad computers to avoid a conflict between the turbo feature and microsoft backup for windows or ms dos add a l switch to the device command in your config sys that loads the battery pro file or before you run microsoft backup type setpower l at the command prompt if you checked ti s manual on the l option you will realise that it means disable all power saving features of your notebook why would anyone want to run a driver disabled as i have found out not only does ti s power management interfere with microsoft backup as the readme txt claims but chkdsk and dblspace and who knows what else are crippled by the ti s power saver it is obvious that there is not such thing as apm specifications if there indeed is such a thing then either microsoft programmers or ti programmers dont know how to read these specifications you dont have to guess as to who are the idiots by the way if you run the advance power management utility power exe in dos when you check the status it says power management status setting adv max cpu idle of time this figure of seems to be the steady state value on my notebook when i am running nothing windows with only program manager in iconised form does that mean that windows takes up of my cpu all for itself and that i have at best only left for useful work is such an overhead justified whether or not windows is an operating system or just another user interface in dos alone it reports idle time looks like windows is a good example of busy waiting type of package that i like my students to study as the classical negative example of our times microsoft programmers do not know batch programming i like to structure my startup script and thus have the equivalent of addpath statements like this set path c dos set path c etc bin path c bin set path c etc windows path c windows set path path c bcc bin set path path mouse even though the new dos was installed in the same directory as the old one i e c dos dos installation program modifes each and every path statement and prepends c dos to its value as a result my resultant path has so many dos s if the installation program wanted to remove the old dos path and add the new dos path clearly it has to only scan for the path statement containg the old dos directory and replace it by the new dos path even this should only be done if the new dos is installed in a directory different from the old one being upgraded instead the microsoft programmer if you can call this person one decided to meddle every path statement i had in the autoexec and prepend dos to the value i wonder if microsoft is so desparate that it would not fire programmers who are incapable of the thought process i started a thread on this when dos came up and the microsoft representative in singapore called me about this poster in fact he specifically said his us counterparts saw the poster and relayed the information to him as he did not have access to internet now that has not changed one bit in fact if you have a path statement with path already in it is it not obvious that the this statement should not be touched for any reason as another example of the inability of microsoft programmers to understand batch programming i had the mouse driver invoked as set mouse c etc mouse set path path mouse loadhigh mouse mouse com guess what memmaker did it replaced the last statement with lh c etc mouse mouse com why is it so difficult just to replace loadhigh with lh and its parameters without touching the rest of the line i do not understand dos software quality dos is the only operating system i know in which under normal usage you end up creating a file that you cannot get rid of using of the commands that come with it i am deliberately being cryptic about this i challenge microsoft to use all its programmers to catch this bug and publish it if they dont within a week i will post how you can create this ghost file surely if i can pick this bug without even looking for it after using a particular command only twice i am sure two dozen microsoft idiot programmers randomly banging on their keyboards over a week could find it that is what i was told how microsoft tests the quality of their products i think it is funny that microsoft has found ways to test quality when it is accepted in the industry that quality cannot be tested but can only be built into the product no wonder they cannot provide any form of guarantees on their products not even a decent list of bugs that will prevent scores of user from destroying their disks beyond repair also if you run dblspace def often enough repeatedly when the disk is fully defragmented you may get errors that was created by the defragmenters i got my io sys file size error and it got truncated when i did the chkdsk this happend only after five successive defragmentation efforst after the first one supposedly did its job and with no new file creation since microsft dont you dare reply to this poster on the network until you admit that your ds has bugs and are willing to let us know what we should watch out for if we have already used ds jaya dr jayasooriah cse cs e unsw sign in a paris hotel p o box kensington nsw tel fax a sports jacket may be worn to dinner internet jayas vast unsw edu au but not trousers dr jayasooriah cse cs e unsw sign in a norwegian cocktail lounge p o box kensington nsw ladies are requested tel fax not to have children internet jayas vast unsw edu au in the bar
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re please help an amiga user find comfort in windows in article t ada og fitz tc cornell edu stlombo eos acm rpi edu steve j lombardi writes by night i m an amiga user by day i work with windows i d be much more comfortable in windows if i had two things a good personal information manager you know a calendar address book reminder list etc rolled into one clean interface i prefer infoselect myself but it is a strange kind of pim a good file manager microsofts is very poor by my standards how about one that has a left and right window and allows file operations between them being able to launch programs from the same interface would be nice as well as text reading and graphics viewing those who are familiar with directory opus on the amiga know what i m looking for well a few things might help you like the file manager better to get more than one window simply double click on a drive icon that it only gives you one window to work with is a fallacy you can drag files between windows to any icon on the tree on the left side of the window and to any drive icon this beats your left and right window as you can have as many open as you wish instead of just two you can launch any app from within file manager by double clicking on the executable s icon you can launch any application and open a document file by double clicking on the document file s icon provided you have associations set correctly this is easily done with the menus the browse capability adds a lot of functionality to so if you name all your text files with txt and point all gif tiff etc files towards paintshop or wingif this takes care of your requirement for text reading and graphics viewing i know someone who prefers using file manager as his shell setting up all the associations you need is the way to do it if directory opus is half as good as file manager then it must be pretty good indeed file manager just needs you to understand how some things are done iskandar taib the only thing worse than peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog is frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	biobliography program info needed please i think somebody posted some info about a biobliography program one or two months ago i don t rember the detail what i d like to have is one software to organize the literature i m refereing for scientific publications the functions i d like would be a able to do data base managment b able to print with special formats for different journals any info would be appreciated yi ming wang radiation laboratory university of notre dame wang nd edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re head to head win and os forgive me if this is stupid but didn t i see a rumor somewhere that apple was working on an intel platform os say like system for x s chris
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how 
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how can i install the printshop deluxe in windows with the norton desktop 
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	screen snapshot is there a way i can save a snapshot of my screen to a file under windows similar to the way one can press cmd shift on a mac please email rather than posting thanks dave fisher fisher lyra hac com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re please help an amiga user find comfort in windows in article t ada og fitz tc cornell edu stlombo eos acm rpi edu steve j lombardi writes from stlombo eos acm rpi edu steve j lombardi subject please help an amiga user find comfort in windows date may gmt by night i m an amiga user by day i work with windows i d be much more comfortable in windows if i had two things a good personal information manager you know a calendar address book reminder list etc rolled into one clean interface a good file manager microsofts is very poor by my standards how about one that has a left and right window and allows file operations between them being able to launch programs from the same interface would be nice as well as text reading and graphics viewing those who are familiar with directory opus on the amiga know what i m looking for i have written the file manager hfm wich has two windows which compare the files in two directorys to find out wether there are equal or similar files the most important operations copy move delete show the file start a progam navigate in the directory tree can be invoked by dragging a directory entry with the mouse this is very convenient because the selection of the file and the operation to be performed occur in one move for bitmap graphic viewing the program vpic can be integrated for spreadsheat and database files i use the view program from pctools hfm can be configured to use arbitrary viewers to show special data formats it does also present archives from pkzip etc as simulated subdirectorys this filemanager has a somewhat non standart user interface but it is very convienient to use and is the prefered file manager in several labs in our university the drawback of this filemanager is it s still a dos program and the development of a windows version has not yet begun i use the program package run zip where run tells its windows companion sched exe which windows program should be started in this way you can start a windows program from a dosbox the new version to be released soon includes a new command for automating this windows program start ftp archives for the mentioned programs all these archives have several mirror sites simtel oak oakland edu filutl hfm zip gif vpic e zip garbo garbo uwasa fi dirutil hfm zip cica ftp cica indiana edu util run zip andreas helke molekulare genetik universitaet heidelberg germany email un ef genius embnet dkfz heidelberg de the header of this posting does not contain a valid smtp mail address
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	looking for medical cliparts my wife is a physiotherapist and she is looking for some cliparts of skeleton and male female body we re currently using windows draw which can import all kind of graphic formats therefore anything will do please advise of the existance of any freeware or commerical source that we can turn to since i don t normally read this newsgroup please responds via e mail thanks in advance jackson loong feeder networking engineering internet jloong dnbf bram cdx mot com motorola codex canada macintosh ljl email mot com matheson blvd voice x mississauga ont l r m fax disclaimer my opinions are my own not motorola s
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re ati avi drivers in article qfwynh wb rzvpv andrew cmu edu andrew a houghton ah i andrew cmu edu writes i noticed ati had posted beta avi drivers for their mach boards on compuserve has anyone had the chance tgo try them how well do they work very well indeed at home a vl bus version of the graphics pro i can stretch an avi window to x and it will continue to play back smoothly it drops a few more frames but on most machines even attempting such a thing would mean one frame update every seconds an isa graphics was able to do zoom by without any perceptible performance penalty it is the best performance i ve seen so far with the possible exception of an intel indeo board which uses overlay so it doesn t have to move the decompressed data over the isa bus at any point john munsch
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	font size for dos in a window x x 
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winprinter a real deal hello netters i recenlty aquired enough money to purchase a laser printer the other day i bought the computer shopper mag i was looking through printer review section and noticed the winprinter the machine is incredibly low priced for all the features it has dpi meg ram postscript compatable envelope printing my question is does anyone have one of these or know why the price is so cheap i would appricaiate it if someone would pass on their knowledge on this subject thanks alot dave donuts are a girls best friend
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re challenge to microsoft supporters i get the picture i just find it humorous that running windows apps for is what makes os more credible cliff
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters tim glauert thg cam orl co uk wrote in article news duke edu kdb teer acpub duke edu kurt bollacker writes tim glauert thg cam orl co uk wrote in article news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu kurt bollacker writes none of this changes the fact that msw is objectively inferior to its competition do you mean that msw is objectively inferior in some respects which is trivially true that it is objectively inferior in all respecets which is trivially false or do you mean something else what criteria have you chosen for your objective assesment are you sure that these criteria are themselves objective i believe that enough is inferior to make it overall as a product inferior to its competition apple system os nextstep unix xwindows pick your favorite flavor in other words it is your opinion that msw is inferior to its competition that s not the same as msw being objectively inferior no it is technically inferior to the os guis that i listed i have already described why to say briefly system easier to learn and use there have been independent studies to that effect os can run msw applications and has more stable multitasking nextstep easier to learn use and program more stable multitasking unix x as easy to learn and use more stable multitasking with the prpoer setup all of these will exchange data with msw machines as well as msw machines will amongst themselves so interoperability is not an issue by this criterion it is inferior if you have another then perhaps i am incorrect do you pick up the glove kurt d bollacker duke university medical center kdb sunbar mc duke edu durham nc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re winfax files in ascii format winfax pro provides you with ocr it is the ocr from omnipage although it is not as customizable it does the job and is auto matic if you want and much cheaper than the same package omni page professional sold separatly last time i check winfax pro was only
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	epson stylus does anyone have any information or better first hand experience of the new epson bubblejet printer stylus i m particularly interested in hearing how well it works under windows i presume that a special printer driver is required is it supplied as standard is it able to print everything that a standard postscript laserprinter could many thanks for any replies george george bolt dept of psychology univ of york uk
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article tasvi qu lll winken llnl gov d fuess writes i for one like windows prior to i had little use for it because of early problems since it is my preferred operating system nah if ms windows were an operating system so would be x windows motif geoworks desqview the shareware win boss c library and that what s it s name text based windowing system written in applesoft that ran on the old faithful apple ii note the similarity all of the above rely on some underlying real os imho they are windowing systems and just that some are cooler than others though whay
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re smartdrv and dblspace in a recent article rcaldrn med miami edu richard calderon writes i just received a gateway with windows and dos i ran it a few times with no apparent problems i decided to give double space a try after compressing the drive with no problems i decided to load windows it took minute seconds to load after dblspace seconds before dblspace i tinkered a little with the machine and noticed an error message saying smartdrive cannot work with dblspace not unreasonable since the smartdrv packaged with dos is version make sure that all your drivers himem emm smartdrv are being executed from the dos directory loss of the cache provided by smartdrv could be your problem if not i don t know what might cause the startup delay my testbed for dblspace which has a very minimal amount of data on the disk so that i don t eat up too much time as i install and uninstall dblspace boots in about seconds from the starting ms dos herald to the end of the autoexec bat execution i don t have handy a system with a more realistic volume of data to time joe morris mitre
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters since i started this twist of this thread kdb teer acpub duke edu kurt bollacker writes i believe that enough is inferior to make it overall as a product inferior to its competition apple system os nextstep unix xwindows pick your favorite flavor in other words it is your opinion that msw is inferior to its competition that s not the same as msw being objectively inferior no it is technically inferior to the os guis that i listed i have already described why to say briefly actually you fell into the above because you said i believe if you had used the rest of this post in your previous post i do not think anyone would have agrued with you system easier to learn and use there have been independent studies to that effect os can run msw applications and has more stable multitasking nextstep easier to learn use and program more stable multitasking unix x as easy to learn and use more stable multitasking the following three are not the competition for windows imho of course system does not currently run on intel boxes nextstep rather expensive should be a competitor to windows nt not x unix x with the exception of os all of the above will require most users to spend a very large sum of money to upgrade applications to ones that run under these os s and basically money speaks louder than anything else you keep saying more stable multitasking is what you mean not multi finder gem geoworks co operative multi tasking but real honest to goodness prioritized pre emptive multi tasking with the prpoer setup all of these will exchange data with msw machines as well as msw machines will amongst themselves so interoperability is not an issue basically this is moot since most users have been able to share data for quite a long time but are still to blind to know it by this criterion it is inferior if you have another then perhaps i am incorrect do you pick up the glove why pick it up you stated the reasons behind your opinions stated them in a very straight forward though over protective manner and aside from my earlier comments about who actually is a competitor i think we are in agreement does tim glauert agree let s wait and see disclaimer the opinions expressed are mine not those of bnr brian ws s st tt user developer if i wanted a computer to play games bell northern research on i d buy an amiga however i have research triangle park nc real work to do so please get lost
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu kurt bollacker writes system easier to learn and use there have been independent studies to that effect os can run msw applications and has more stable multitasking nextstep easier to learn use and program more stable multitasking unix x as easy to learn and use more stable multitasking also more customizable i can make the computer do what i want it to do whereas with msw i have to do what microsoft wants me to do how do i bind control left mousebutton to type hello world not that i d want to do that but tjl
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re smartdrv and dblspace in article rcaldrn epistat rcaldrn med miami edu richard calderon writes i just received a gateway with windows and dos i ran it a few times with no apparent problems i decided to give double space a try after compressing the drive with no problems i decided to load windows it took minute seconds to load after dblspace seconds before dblspace i tinkered a little with the machine and noticed an error message saying smartdrive cannot work with dblspace the reason for the change from smartdrv exe included with windows to smartdrv exe included with dos is compatability with dblspace be sure you are running smartdrv from your dos directory
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	pctools for windows demo if someone has downloaded the pctools demo from compuserve please upload it to cica or other ftp site thanks dean st pb elroy uh edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re afterdark startrek out of memory in article may informix com jerry doodles informix com writes i have the startrek version of afterdark running but it nearly always reports space out of memory which floats across the top of the screen what have i not set correctly i ve got m of ram jerry you re right it doesn t appear to working correctly it really should say space the last frontier across the top john a grant jagrant emr emr ca airborne geophysics geological survey of canada ottawa
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article news duke edu kdb teer acpub duke edu kurt bollacker writes rick schaut richs microsoft com wrote in article news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu kurt bollacker writes i agree no one ever definitively met my challenge only batted around semantics oh well i guess things did turn out as i expected hmmm i gave two examples which matched your objective criteria and your response was some subjective claptrap about them being lame you never did counter the fact that those examples fit your objective criteria i repeat what are they you mentioned what you tried to present as innovative but what new concept was brought to market an efficient basic basic existed before and efficiency is not original either ole what new concept does that bring document oriented computing the mac had that before msw you simply haven t made your point the burden of proof is upon you my exact challenge what new computing concept has ms brought to market first nothing more nothing less explain how your examples fit that criterion hmm has anyone of us computer geeks me included ever consider that inovation is not limited to software hardware true ms products do not boast features that ms invented but how many products out there by other vendors out there are truely innovative in their continuing development i think what makes ms special to the public is thier innovative pricing it is true the xwindows mac next all have some feature s in thier gui that are better than ms but people like me can t afford them it is true that apple has lower their pricing on the low end models but they are just that low end system is a better operating system but the machines they operate on just are too expensive for my tastes a unix platform is powerful enuf but tell the common user to set up xdefault i am still confused on what some of them things do and they either puke or faint if u think about it low prices aint innovative if u come down to it but for the product it offers and on the lower cost and powerful hardware that it runs on as compare to macs ms is kinda innovative oh yea i guess the fact that the support products and applications they have garnered for mswindows does make them kinda innovative too dixon d ly dly joule elee calpoly edu dly oboe calpoly edu electrical and electronic engineering cal poly slo
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re info menu choice in file manager in article shenoy pv f vincent iastate edu shenoy iastate edu shiva shenoy writes in may trintex uucp charles tinman dev prodigy com charles r emmons writes description of file manager info menu option edit the winfile ini file if there is a section addons in it great else add the following two lines if the addons section exists then just add the second line addons info filesize dll note that the filesize dll is a part of the windows resource kit if you install it and you can download it from cica it will make the appropriate changes itself kartik if you quote my article remember to trim it down to the essentials anant kartik mithal akm cs uoregon edu network manager ph d student comp science u of oregon eugene or fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re pctools for windows demo st pb elroy uh edu burris dean e writes if someone has downloaded the pctools demo from compuserve please upload it to cica or other ftp site thanks dean st pb elroy uh edu sorry i don t have the demo but i do have the program and have been using it for the past few weeks since i now have dos as well i don t use many of the features of pct win but i do so use the pct desktop with drag and drop printing folders in folders and multiple desktops the file manager which is far superior to win s fm pat presidente ppreside cln etc bc ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re capturing screen shots in article acorn co uk i wrote i am trying to capture some colour screenshots from windows currently i have tried pressing print screen to copy the screen to the clipboard then paste the clipboard into the windows paint package many thanks for the replies i received to this a couple of people suggested how i could get the paint package to work properly but in the end i took the advice of someone else to try paintshop pro from cica indiana edu thanks again philip practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re head to head win and os in article t fl ehs balsam unca edu kepley photon phys unca edu writes in article may samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes question the next question is even if i did want to run os and i had this big monster machine to run it on is there a diverse i think you re deliberatly overstating the requirements for os considering that os is a multi threaded true multitasking os and takes the place of dos and windows and more i actually think the requirements for os are very reasoable i also think that anyone using windows without megs of ram a and megs of hard drive space is beating their head against a wall those are also legitimate requirements for os in fact the requirements for windows and os are about equal exquise me since when does mankind consider twice to be equal the natural progress of things is for government to gain ground and for liberty to yield thomas jefferson brad kepley kepley photon phys unca edu voice days wim van holder katholieke universiteit leuven tel departement t e w fax dekenstraat b leuven e mail wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac be belgium fdbaq cc kuleuven ac be
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	terminal woes i have a vlb machine with a wang fax modem when using the windows terminal application the only way i can get it to see the modem is to change it to com then go back and change it to com then it works fine i have it set to com as the port to use i don t have anything plugged into com and i ve looked over the manual for all it s worth but what am i missing the modem is jumpered for com irq which i understand means i can t use the second serial port and the modem at the same time but i m not using the second serial port anyway also when using procomm for dos it always sees the modem and dials but doesn t always connect me when the other end answers don t know if that helps any thanks brian d reed bdr cbnewsg cb att com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ati graphics ultra pro problem i have the following problem on a dell se with the ati graphics ultra pro eisa when i start windows the first times i try to run an application it does not start windows will show the following error message error executing application there is not enough memory to run the application after the first tries the application i want to run will start and afterwards there are no more problems when i change the video driver from mach to a this problem does not occur so i suspect the ati drivers i tried both the build and build driver does anyone have a clue p r van harten philips research laboratories tel prof holstlaan fax aa eindhoven email vharten prl philips nl the netherlands
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re challenge to microsoft supporters in article news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu kurt bollacker writes tim glauert thg cam orl co uk wrote in other words it is your opinion that msw is inferior to its competition that s not the same as msw being objectively inferior no it is technically inferior to the os guis that i listed ok now you are starting to define your criteria by this criterion it is inferior i m afraid that you haven t actually proved that you have shown that some aspects of msw are technically inferior to other systems as i said earlier if this is all you are trying to say then it is trivially true but some aspects of msw are actually technically superior to each of the other systems resource requirements performace device support printer support gui etc btw i d love to see the studies which show that unix x is as easy to learn as windows but i might even agree that on balance msw is technically inferior to some of the competition this still does not prove your point if you have another then perhaps i am incorrect range of available applications base os cost cost of applications cost of hardware multi platform support quality of the after sales service availability of books training materials support for visual and physical handicaps suitability for use in mobile computing quality of documentation if you think that technical excellence is the only factor when deciding on an os or indeed the primary factor you need to think again
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	corrected microcal origin package uploaded to cica i ve recently re uploaded to cica the current v version of the working model of microcal origin a scientific and technical d d graphics and data analysis package for windows x the working model is d only and puts a promo message on hardcopies but is largely identical to the full version saving origin files is disabled but you can save ascii data sets produced with origin it also says it has an expiration date of sept try it you may like it as i do it s currently at ftp cica indiana edu in the directory pub pc win uploads as origin zip the file origin zip is unfortunately incomplete sorry bout that include std disclaimer tom carter carter photon cem msu edu michigan state university carter msucem bitnet chemistry department
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	enchaced mode with scsi disk i just removed an ide drive and reformated two scsi disk to use as boot disk in a system that did run windows fine in enhanced mode its a dx with meg ram and an adaptec b with bios enabled system runs fine and runs windows in standard mode fine but it returns to the dos prompt when trying to run mode i ve tried emmexclude and sysrombreakpoint what gives thanks in advance hal my views are my own
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	com ports does anyone know what the standard port addresses are for com ports through if there is a standard of any sort please e mail as i don t read this group very often mark tomlinson mark garden equinox gen nz
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide cable vacsc qe vax csun edu wrote i just bought a new ide hard drive for my system to go with the one i already had my problem is this my system only had a ide cable for one drive so i had to buy cable with two drive connectors on it and consequently have to switch cables the problem is the new hard drive s manual refers to matching pin on the cable with both pin on the drive itself and pin on the ide card but for the life of me i cannot figure out how to tell which way to plug in the cable to align these most ide drives that i have dealt with have had pin labeled on the printed circuit board this is sufficient to determine which side is which if your ide drive does not have a label then you can look for a polarization notch in the receptacle the connector on the drive with the pins if the receptacle is center polarized that is it has one rectangular notch about mm wide positioned in the center of one side then you can identify pin as follows look into the pins with the notch at the top pin is at the top right on all drives i have seen this is toward the power connector as for which pin is pin on the controller well you can use the same criteria but look hard for the labelling of any pin once you know which end pin are on or pins the oposite end then you are all set all you need to do is keep the pin end connected to the pin end you don t even have to look at the cable itself just trace the pin side of the cable through usually the pin of the cable is identified by a different color red usually but beware many cable makers are not very careful about this i have seen cables with pin being the one marked red of course with non polarized connectors this doesn t matter you can plug the cable in either way and you decide which side is pin secondly the cable has like a connector at two ends and one between them i figure one end goes in the controler and then the other two go into the drives does it matter which i plug into the master drive and which into the slave any help appreciated thanks it doesn t matter what gets plugged where but it does matter how the drives are jumpered there will be amongst other options two jumpers that you should be concerned with on both drives one jumper will select whether the drive is the slave or the master if it is the master then a second jumper selects whether or not a slave is present you will have to consult the docuementation that came with you drives if you do not have docuementation then just call the manufacturers hotline number or fax number if they have one this kind of information is routinely needed by people just like yourself they will fax you complete info about the jumpers if you don t have convenient access to a fax machine then you can usually get voice help or post the specific question to this group i probably won t be able to help you good luck gordon lang
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what do you know about cornell systems the subject says it all i m wondering if anyone on the net has had any experiences with cornell computer systems of california i was checking out their ad in computer shopper and they seem to have a good balance between service price and hardware the question is are they reliable e mail responses would be appreciated thanks adam v q h ubvms cc buffalo edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dfi handy scanner how to talk to it i have a dfi handy scanner model hs plus and a little bit of software running under dos to use it i d like to make more extensive use of this device in particular write a driver for it on unix so can anyone give me a description of how to talk to this device it connects to the system via it s own interface card any info would help it can t be too difficult to talk to thanks brian wallis tusc computer systems pty ltd
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ip numbers on ethernet cards tigger djohnson moose uvm edu wrote hi is it possible through either pin configuration or through software programming to change the ip numbers on an ethernet card thanks in advance dave tigger djohnson moose uvm edu tiggers are wonderful things dave c johnson i think you mean the ethernet numbers the byte ethernet id is the unique electronic serial number esn assigned to each ethernet board in existence this is a physical layer concept the ip address is a higher layer protocol the analogy to telephone service is the ip address is your phone number while the particular wire pair in the cable on the pole has some unknown to you or i physical identification scheme number but to answer your question assuming you indeed meant the ethernet number it is not supposed to be possible to change the number of course the manufacturer can always retro fit a board but there could hardly be a reason to ever do that if your question is actually referring to the ip address it is most definetly changable but it is strictly software gordon lang
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	themax vga s opinions i am wondering if anyone has any opinions about the themax s svga card i just purchased one due to a great price on it it boasts million true colors with mb onboard if you know anything about this card please respond via mail as this group tends to be overwhelming at times with posts thanks in advance john anderson the views expressed are usually u of nebraska at omaha my own and occasionally someone omaha nebraska usa other than myself but they are internet flick cwis unomaha edu usually correct
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re s video card at different address in article c myzn pue austin ibm com lance hartmann austin ibm com lance hartmann writes in article qmrdd h umcc umcc umich edu jon umcc umcc umich edu jon zeeff writes i d like to add a second s based video card to my system does anyone know of a company that sells a card that can coexist with another one all i really need is color text on one monitor and fast color graphics on the other probably just a configurable address would do it for what it s worth i haven t confirmed it a diamond tech rep told me that all s based video cards use port addresses x e and x e if this is true it appears that you cannot use more than one s card in your system actually there is an s based card on the market that supports multiple adapters in one system unfortunately it is vl bus only they may have an isa version by now from a company called metheus the address and phone number is metheus corp ogc science park nw compton dr beaverton or be aware this is a very high end card capable of mb of vram so it does not come cheap but i have personally seen two of these boards running a dual screen windows lance hartmann lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com yes that is a percent sign in my network address all statements comments opinions etc herein reflect those of the author and shall not be misconstrued as those of ibm or anyone else for that matter mark hall intergraph corporation huntsville al mhall habu b ingr com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	sale always in scsi card i have a always in scsi card for sale w manuals software and cables make your best offer on this gyro ucsd edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re mitsumi and sb pro in article apr elroy uh edu st r elroy uh edu b j guillot writes in article apr zip eecs umich edu grover emunix emich edu grover thomas writes just poke out the little pins in the connector and then replace them in the correct slots is this reverisible you can unpoke as easy as you poke yep i ve done this too the trick is to use a tiny screwdriver and push down on the latch of each pin and then pull it out of the connector label each one first with tape so you don t get them confused after you ve pulled them out compare the pinout tables in the mitsumi and soundblaster manuals to get the correct orientation arlen martin at t att attme stcarm
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	old keyboards never die hello i am almost ashame to ask this question it really looks like a faq but couldn t find the answer anyway the original ibm pc xt or key keyboard is in my opinion still the best keyboard around function keys on the right place eh left place firm click etc is there any chance to connect one of these to a modern at clone i do understand that the new at keyboard has more functionality i e the typematic repeat rate is programmable etc it seams to me that the pins electrical specs of the old and the new keyboard are however the same maybe the communication protocol is different please answer by e mail also if you can tell me that is absolutely impossible in that case i will bring the keyboard the museum of obsolete technology thanks duco duco fijma tel x university of twente fax x p o box internet fijma cs utwente nl ae enschede the netherlands no ugly pictures in this sig
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi dma and detach in article apr julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes in article richk apr gozer grebyn com richk grebyn com richard krehbiel writes can anyone explain in fairly simple terms why if i get os i might need an scsi controler rather than an ide will performance suffer that much for a mb or so drive if i don t have a tape drive or cd rom any help would be appreciated so when you ve got multi tasking you want to increase performance by increasing the amount of overlapping you do one way is with dma or bus mastering either of these make it possible for i o devices to move their data into and out of memory without interrupting the cpu the alternative is for the cpu to move the data there are several scsi interface cards that allow dma and bus mastering how do you do bus mastering on the isa bus ide however is defined by the standard at interface created for the ibm pc at which requires the cpu to move all the data bytes with no dma if we re talking isa at bus here then you can only have dma channel active at any one time presumably transferring data from a single device so even though you can have at least devices on a scsi bus explain how all of those devices can to dma transfers through a single scsi card to the isa at bus at the same time think it s the scsi card doing the dma transfers not the disks the scsi card can do dma transfers containing data from any of the scsi devices it is attached when it wants to an important feature of scsi is the ability to detach a device this frees the scsi bus for other devices this is typically used in a multi tasking os to start transfers on several devices while each device is seeking the data the bus is free for other commands and data transfers when the devices are ready to transfer the data they can aquire the bus and send the data on an ide bus when you start a transfer the bus is busy until the disk has seeked the data and transfered it this is typically a ms second lock out for other processes wanting the bus irrespective of transfer time also i m still trying to track down a copy of ibm s at reference book but from their pc technical manual page the fdd adapter is buffered on the i o bus and uses the system board direct memory access dma for record data transfers i expect to see something similar for the pc at hdd adapter so the lowly low density original pc fdd card used dma and the pc at hdd controller doesn t that makes real sense guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors close to ac power source is this ok i have a new monitor which i set up approximately feet from where the ac power enters my house at my fuse box is this safe for the monitor or will can the emf emitted by the ac current eventually affect my monitor if so how and is the damage permanent or would degaussing fix it thanks tom catalino
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	datasave videostreamer a few weeks ago i saw an ad in the german magazine c t about a so called videostreamer this is an interface between a pc s parallel port and any video recorder for backing up your data on a videotape the company datasave claims that it can store up to gb on a minutes tape it costs dm about usd i think my question is does anybody use this product if yes how many bytes really fit on a minutes tape gb sounds quite unbelievable to me however any comments on the interface are appreciated please mail your replies directly to me i will sum up if neccesary thanks in advance gerhard gwesp cosy sbg ac at
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re mitsumi and sb pro in article apr elroy uh edu st r elroy uh edu b j guillot writes in article apr zip eecs umich edu grover emunix emich edu grover thomas writes just poke out the little pins in the connector and then replace them in the correct slots is this reverisible you can unpoke as easy as you poke well i tried this method based on responses from several people either i am a klutz probable or they have changed the connector i ended up having to destroy the connector put heat shrink tubing on the individual pins and then plug them into the sb connector in the correct order it works great this way so this turned out just fine it certainly sounded easy based on other people s experiences but my attempts did not go too well john john manning opinions expressed are my own j manning csc enet dec com i do not represent digital equip
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	considering the orchid vlb seeking comments i am very serious about the purchase of a dx that uses the orchid vlb mother board the system also has the vlb ide and fahrenheit video board in it i haven t seen or heard any bad comments about this board does anyone out there have any comments good or bad about this board i am considering this board primarily because of orchid s reputation and long standing in the field thanks for any and all comments bob jones
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help promplem with panasonic kx printer folks i have a panasonic kx just inherited with no documentation which is giving me a problem that i cant resolve the paper out light refuses to go out it starts to blink when ever i turn the power on which beeps it does allow be to go on line with green light lit simultanously the red paper out light also remains lit but is does not blink please do not give any references to manuals as i dont have any thanking you all very much in advance sincerely dharmesh
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bit dma failure system halted i have a mhz isa board with kbyte cache and megs ram i just bought the new soundblaster and tried to install the card the sb uses bit dma channel i could select between channel to it is the first card i ever installed that uses bit dma transfer after i tested the card the first time the computer crashed and i got a parity error system halted this happens either from dos as also from windows so it seems that my bit dma channels are not working properly they are there because testsb exe recocnize them and tests them ok until first access well does anybody know a solution for this problem or a special test program for dma problems i eliminated the problem temporaly by using only bit dma channel but it makes the system slow thanks for your help yours markus
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re parity error system halted anyone have any ideas you unfortunately failed to mention if the error occurs with the parity error checking enabled or disabled i assume you mean it gives you a parity error when it s enabled and not when it s disabled how high will the count go on the memory check at boot up before this error occurs does the system beep at all if so what s the pattern of beeps the error could be occuring in cache memory not so likely or video memory as well as the simms the fact that you have ami bios is not conclusive in determining the board manufacturer either boards are made by thousands of small taiwanese companies among others that buy the name brand chips and put them together with some simm sockets to make your board i tend to doubt your problem is with your ide controller also anyway perhaps if you answer those questions someone can help you out better mrb boltz vivaldi psu edu mrb psuvm psu edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	can anyone give me wd x jumper settings i have a st rll hard drive and i have just got another m hard drive the controller in my machine is a wd x can a kind soul please mail me or tell me how to get jumper settings for that board i really appreciate this thanks in advance jerry look ma no signature
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re trident cs drivers for win fast eddie felson jmarttila finabo abo fi wrote hello i ve got an old trident cs svga card but lacking suitable drivers for windows the drivers for the series seem to be incompatible does anyone have an idea of where to get these drivers address for an ftp site would be nice thanks in advance jouni jouni marttila yo kyl b turku finland jmarttila abo fi jmarttila finabo abovax jmarttila jjmartti utu fi pgp key available via finger jmarttila abo fi you can find the drivers at wuarchive wustl edu in the msdos windows sub directory i think the files are called tvgawin a zip and tvgawin b zip those are the latest drivers available as far as i know tmc tmc spartan ac brocku ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ati build drivers good hofkin software org bob hofkin writes build causes exceptions when i exit windows in fact i have had this happen on all builds after which shipped with my gateway system am i doing something wrong or is this problem commonly overlooked i have never had exceptions with build or drivers i have a gw dx scott linn scott hpcvccl cv hp com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cpu temperature vs cpu activity in article apr ucc su oz au montuno physics su oz au lino montuno writes this may be a very naive question but is there any basis for the claim that a cpu will get hotter when a computationally intensive job is running my friend claims that there will be little difference in the temperature of an idle cpu and a cpu running a computationally intensive job it first depends on what an idle cpu is doing i m not sure about dos but many multitasking oss have an loop like this loop is there anything to do yes do it goto loop no goto loop the cpu is not doing any work but it is still processing instructions it will also respond to interupts lino montuno guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	micro solutions backpack not working properly hello all i have a problem with my micro solutions backpack sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt i will either start a backup or start a tape format and at about percent i get an error either saying the tape is bad or the backup format has aborted for an unknown reason if i turn everything off and wait a half hour it works fine is it because the tape backup is too warm has anyone had similar experiences thanks kevin
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bbs i read on the bbs a while back thats a bbs may be started for gateway did a bbs start and if it did would you let me know the newsgroup name please send information by e mail my e mail address is joe west lds loral com thanks joe west
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re amd i clones now legal in us wyman rtsg mot com mark s wyman writes poe wharton upenn edu writes a friend of mine called me on the phone and told me he was wathcing cnn and saw a report that the ruling prohibiting amd from selling their i clones has been thrown out making it legal for amd to ship in the us yep this was on the news great news for consumers bad news for intel their stock dropped quite a chunk with the announcement scott linn scott hpcvccl cv hp com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re modems and noisy lines i used to have a lot of line noise problems with my baud modem what was sudgested to me was to put a toriod transformer on the line this is easily done by getting a large toroid core from your local electronics shop a toroid core is a ceramic metal donut and wind the telephone line in through the center of the core and out around the outside five or six times this is a easy and cheap fix that does not have the hassels of having to use sofware to fix a hardware problem talk to yah later mark mark zander sheridanc on ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bios fix for diamond ss x hello world in posts i ve heard about all of the bugs in the dss x and the drivers now i hear that diamond ships bios replacements to some people that fixes a lot of problems as well as new drivers can anyone tell me how to get mine thanks in advance phil poe wharton upenn edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide hds volker voecking voecking informatik tu muenchen de wrote hello i have problems combining two ide hard disks seagate st a and quantum lps a as single hard disk both are working fine but connecting them together to my controller doesn t work my questions are has anybody out there ever been succesful using such hard disks together and if so what jumper settings and bios settting did he she use is it possible that my controller is the reason for my troubles the only thing i know about it is that it is an ide harddisk controller how many harddisks can such a controller control in my case only one thanks in advance volker ide drives have jumpers on them to indicate if it is a master or a slave if it is a master then a second jumper indicates if a slave is present these must be set correctly according to each drive s manufacturers spec ification the cmos setup is almost positively not the problem it is probably not the controller ide controllers all support exactly two drives maximum check those jumpers gordon lang
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cpu temperature vs cpu activity in article c um f ux austin ibm com guyd austin ibm com guy dawson writes in article apr ucc su oz au montuno physics su oz au lino montuno writes this may be a very naive question but is there any basis for the claim that a cpu will get hotter when a computationally intensive job is running my friend claims that there will be little difference in the temperature of an idle cpu and a cpu running a computationally intensive job it first depends on what an idle cpu is doing i m not sure about dos but many multitasking oss have an loop like this loop is there anything to do yes do it goto loop no goto loop the cpu is not doing any work but it is still processing instructions i ve done some asic and digital design but not any cpu design it would seem to me that on a the fpu is not being used most of the cache is not being accessed the off chip buffers drivers are idle the multiplier isn t multiplying the barrel shifters aren t shifting microcode isn t microcoding etc this means transistors aren t switching which means less power dissipated in cmos which means less heat from what i understand the pentium shuts down those sections of the cpu which aren t being used in order to cut down on heat power dennis lou but yossarian what if everyone thought that way dlou ucsd edu then i d be crazy to think any other way backbone ucsd dlou dlou ucsd bitnet steve jobs and steve wozniak went to my high school
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re q scsi ide i e or more hard drives in article apr news cs brandeis edu luoma binah cc brandeis edu writes has anyone successfully put both scsi and ide hard drives on the same system i would like to know as well since i just bought a mb seagate ide drive and want to add it to my computer a four year old gateway which currently has an mb seagate scsi drive the scsi controller is such that the docs told me not to specify it in the cmos setup i e both hard drive settings are listed as not installed and apparently the scsi controller works its wonders i wondering if this is a problem also i remember how when i helped my cousin install his second ide drive we had to define a master slave relationship for them do i need to do something similar here i am particularly interested in having the scsi as the boot drive same here any help would be appreciated since i intend to install this drive asap i d like to know what to do and what not to do before i start thanks william barnes suranet operations wbarnes sura net voice fax disclaimer i don t speak for suranet and they don t speak for me
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re debugging possible hardware problems i suspect the external cache but i have no real evidence for this suggestions about the cause of the problem bad memory bad motherboard bad cache suggestions about how to debug the problem turn off cache gcc and other big programs seemed to crash about of the time for me gcc gave something like program as got fatal signal and when doing anything past the complexity of elvis kermit etc i got kernel general protection faults at least once a session i disabled my cache as suggested and bingo linux is as stable as a rock it hasn t given me a core dump or kernel error yet does any one know why the cache would do something like this aldy hernandz andrews edu if programmers are paid by the hour how do you suppose the array x is initialized more programming pearls
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help installing second ide drive bill willis willisw willisw eng clemson edu wrote in article qn iv darwin sura net wbarnes sura net bill barnes writes recently my cousin got a second internal ide drive a seagate mb i can look up the model number if it s important and i ve been trying to help him install it i ve got a vested interest since my machine s busted and i have to use his until i get mine fixed he already has a seagate mb ide hd again i forget the model number but i can find out anyway i can t seem to get the bloody thing up i ve managed to get one or the other drive up with the other disconnected but not both at the same time whenever i try the thing hangs during bootup never gets past the system test the ide controller s instruction sheet says it supports two drives i think i ve configured the cmos correctly the power s plugged in properly i even learned about the master slave relationship that two hds are supposed to have didn t know pcs were into s m and i think i configured the jumpers properly the mb one is the master the new mb one is the slave deleted many many thanks in advance this is practically an emergency i have two papers to do on this thing for monday help william barnes suranet operations wbarnes sura net voice fax disclaimer i don t speak for suranet and they don t speak for me i ve been told by our local computer guru that you can t do this unless you perform a low level format on your existing hard drive and set your system up for two hard drives from the beginning i took him at his word and i have not tried to find out any more about it because i m not going to back everything up just to add another hdd if anyone knows for sure what the scoop is i would like to know also thanks in advance also bill willis do not do a low level format on an ide drive unless you have the executable for doing so supplied by the manufacturer these are available from bbs s or mail but the mail version costs a nominal fee in addition to the master slave jumper on an ide drive there is also another jumper to indicate whether a slave is present get it right the cabling is not an issue as long as pin goes to pin goes to pin no twisting or swapping on an ide cable be sure of pin on all three components do not make assumptions guesses are ok but assumptions are bad if the cable and jumpers are correct and the cmos setup is correct then you may have to do an fdisk followed by a high level format i have never personally found this necesary but perhaps there is something gone wrong with the data on the disks probably not but i understand your predicament you will probably throw salt over your shoulders wear funny clothes and do a spooky sounding chant while dancing around the room if someone said it might help good luck gordon lang
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	motherboard advice needed hi does anyone have a source for dx motherboards i ve been calling around the local stores and everyone appears to be only stocking the dx or sx motherboards how difficult is it to modify a dx motherboard to run at mhz is it as simple as replacing the system clock with a slower part thanks peter
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re can i have printers on a pc lan mac isis msstate edu mubashir cheema writes trying to establish a network lan here that could use different printers panasonic kxp for printing receipts and okidata ol for letters etc is it at all possible in this world this is a fundamental aspect of novell s business they wouldn t be where they are if they didn t live up to their novell does printing slogan we run printers of varying types off our novell network i m sure there are places with hundreds rtfm on the capture command printcon pserver and the sections of the windows manual which cover network printing if you haven t bought novell s products yet rephrase your question and look for information about how well various competitors do printing rich
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cmos checksum error in article c uaoq v ulowell ulowell edu mcook cs ulowell edu michael cook writes recently i have been getting a cmos checksum error when i first turn on my computer it doesn t happen everytime i turn it on nor can i predict when it is going to happen i have an ami bios and all of the setting are lost for example the drive types and the password options however the date and time remain correct if anyone knows what can be causing this please let me know most likely reason is that your backup battery is failing this battery maintains the contents of the cmos memory when ac power is turned off and if the battery is flakey then the contents of the cmos will be lost and the checksum will be wrong along with most other of the cmos data try replacing the battery if however your pc doesn t use a battery but a large capacitor to power the cmos you should check to see if you can replace the capacitor with a more normal lithium battery if this isn t possible make sure you leave your pc on for a half hour or hour each day this will keep the capacitor charged i d opt for the battery change though it s also possible but unlikely that a rogue problem or even a virus is corrupting the cmos if your battery seems okay get a virus scanner and check out your system
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway flash bios upgrade in article apr utxvms cc utexas edu dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu daniel m coleman writes gateway has released a new flash bios update for their local bus systems because i m such a nice person i uploaded them to wuarchive wustl edu look for glb exe in the msdos uploads section enjoy i have several questions what do i gain with this new bios how can i save a copy of my old bios in case i want to go back how do i install the new bios i d like to enjoy but need answers first thanks bill volz chevron petroleum technology co earth model interpretation analysis division p o box la habra ca phone fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help advice guf psuvm psu edu writes i own an k clone which does all i want except run game i want to buy the game says it requires a with k game tech support says game will run on but uses a some digitized graphics which would make it run really slow it s a card game hoyles classic card games digitized graphics are photos artwork of game fictional card players what can i do to speed up how this game would run short of an motherboard upgrade co processor accelerator card mimicking my can run at mhz any advice would be greatly appreciated a upgrade would probably cost about about or so coprocessors or accelerator cards would cost at least that much f b i b m the most feared merger gsbg uxa cso uiuc edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	question how to setup a video projector for vga i am asked to design a video aid system for teacher to show their students how to work their way round in windows i have seen people using video projector tv set and large size monitor as thrir display for presentations i am told that there are three ways to connect to a video projector composite y c rgb can anyone explain to me the different between the three and the likely cost for each of them i would also like to know if there are telnet or kermit for windows please reply to me via e amil as well as bulletin my internet account is u sparc ncu edu tw tim chen
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	diamond stealth help hello i have a diamond stealth vram card the older version with the dip switches on the back i have two problems i ve lost the manual i have it in a machine with a network card and everything works fine until i run windows when the network connection dies in case it s important the network card is an smc arcnet bit compatable card it s i o address is e and it s ram base address is d it s also using irq i believe there is a file on the diamond bboard that explains how to sort this out but with no manual i don t know the bboard number if you can please help me with as many of the following as possible a send me the diamond bbs number b e mail or post the dip switch settings for the card or fax them to me at c tell me what i m doing wrong so i can magicly get everything working any help at all would be much appreciated thanks in advance red
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re do the mb ati ultra pro and bit windows drivers work in article ut emx uucp reza magellan ae utexas edu alireza vali writes hi there we just bought a dx gateway system with a meg ati ultra pro video card everything seems to work fine except for the windows drivers for x bit and x and x bit modes the fonts and icons start deteriorating after windows startup and within minutes of use everything on the screen is totally unintelligible naturally i called gateway tech support to inquire about this the technician asked me about the drivers and i told him it was version build he told me that the and bit drivers for this is pure bull i ve had the bit mode x and x working since the version before bld added the bit option to flexpanel try getting the drivers from ftp cica indiana edu or wuarchive the ati ultra pro simply do not work is this true if so i m simply amazed how could this be the strange thing is i would have expected to see some discussion on here unless the subject has made the faq gateway dx local bus megs ram scsi hd cd rom ultrastor f local bus scsi controller ati ultra pro local bus with mb vram dos windows mach drivers version build mine is gateway dx lb megs ram ide hd ati gup w mb installed upgrade myself bld drivers cannon lobby ti com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re soundblaster irq and port settings in article shaman wv tek com andrew frip wv tek com andrew klossner wrote these lpt com disk controller are call devices there are devices that requires exclusive interrupt ownership eg disk controller i and keyboard i there are also devices that does not require exclusive ownership ie it will share an interrupt with another device eg lpt no in a standard isa bus the one that almost all non laptop pcs use two separate interface cards cannot share an interrupt this is due to a screwup in the bus design for example if your soundblaster wants to drive interrupt number then it must hold a certain bus wire to or at all times depending on whether or not it wants an interrupt this precludes letting another card assert interrupt number when two or more devices in an isa bus pc share an interrupt it s because they re implemented by a single card interesting would you care to explain to me then how my soundblaster pro card and my printer card are sharing irq successfully i assure you that they are both set to irq and that i have no problem my computer is a dtk ibm clone paul bartholomew pdb ipl jpl nasa gov
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re q scsi ide i e or more hard drives in article apr news cs brandeis edu wbarnes sura net bill barnes writes has anyone successfully put both scsi and ide hard drives on the same system i would like to know as well since i just bought a mb seagate ide drive and want to add it to my computer a four year old gateway which currently has an mb seagate scsi drive the scsi controller is such that the docs told me not to specify it in the cmos setup i e both hard drive settings are listed as not installed and apparently the scsi controller works its wonders i wondering if this is a problem also i remember how when i helped my cousin install his second ide drive we had to define a master slave relationship for them do i need to do something similar here i am particularly interested in having the scsi as the boot drive same here any help would be appreciated since i intend to install this drive asap i d like to know what to do and what not to do before i start thanks i have been using both ide or mfm and scsi drives for years i have ide and scsi on one system and the other with ide scsi disk and scsi cdrom i currently using always in scsi card but i also have a future domain a western digital scsi card and i work with an adaptic before as i recall all these cards can support boot and floppy drive however to use with other controller ide mfm the boot drive has to be the ide or mfm you can not boot from the scsi if you have other controller in the system if you guys only have drives ide scsi just set up the ide in your cmos setup make sure you can boot from it then set up the scsi controller irq dma etc set the scsi drive to id just plug and play for all the cards i seen so far only if you have more than drives then you need driver for the third drive and so on if you have more question email me i will try to answer it good luck william
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re the p t in article r td r usenet ins cwru edu rrn po cwru edu robert r novitskey writes has anyone out there heard of any performance stats on the fabled p t i was wondering what it s performance compared to the and or pentium would be any info would be helpful an advertisement in microtimes a bay area mini computer shopper from ency systems in fremont has a graphic for the p t performance based on mips power meter v the dx raked in about the dx got about and the p t got about tom tom barrett tdbear sr engineer tom barrett amd com v amd pcd ms e ben white austin tx f don t take no take hold don t leave it to chance tasmin archer my views are my own and may not be the same as the company of origin
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re modem windows problems in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu nstassen magnus acs ohio state edu nicki a stassen lantz writes what a weekend i replaced my motherboard upgraded to dos ms windows and now experience lockups in any windows application using the modem dx dxl cpu amd ami bios i o card with serial parallel and game ports generic cheapo ide controller two hd two fd internal packard bell modem mouse the mouse is set to com irq via jumper on the i o board and parms on the mouse driver the modem is set to com irq jumpers on modem board in addition i think i have disabled the second serial port on the i o card since it is unused mouse works fine here s the deal procomm dos version works fine through the modem procomm for windows cim compuserve for windows and terminal all lockup when i try to do anything with the modem the screen just freezes no sound comes from the modem nor any messages on the screen i m getting real frustrated could the second port on the i o card still be enabled would this cause a problem i ve been through most of the software routes so i m beggining to believe that maybe this is a hardware problem anybody been through a similar experience anybody have any ideas i could try please thanks in advance n a stassen lantz i ran into the same problem when i upgraded from a modem to a modem any time i give the modem a reset command atz while in windows the computer locks up if i give the atz command in dos it will work my solution was to not give the modem the atz command thru windows in the procomm install process i told the program i have a hayes compatible modem atz was not included in the initialization string it works fine i called ms about this they didn t have a clue as to what the memory interupt conflict could be the lockup accures using any windows comm program that gives the atz command
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re g k jumbo backup problems i have been told by several people that sony data cartridges don t quite cut it in the jumbo tape drive lots of bad blocks if you re using sony tape try switching to something else like maybe m mike
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	plus hardcard owners help hi there i have a problem here i ve lost the software drivers and setup programs for my hardcard can someone email me the files or let me know if plus development were they bought out by quantum has a bbs or phone i have a hardcard ii xl thanks in advance eric
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx math co pro vs dx in article r vs innnr lynx unm edu teague us mdc com chris teague writes which cpu will give the better performance on math intensive programs a dx or a dx dx is faster for this if you are using dos pc mag reviewed a bunch of dx and a dx and the dx was faster the review was in the last month of two thanks in advance chris teague guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway flash bios upgrade in article lhdsy lahabra chevron com hwrvo kato lahabra chevron com w r volz writes in article apr utxvms cc utexas edu dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu daniel m coleman writes gateway has released a new flash bios update for their local bus systems because i m such a nice person i uploaded them to wuarchive wustl edu look for glb exe in the msdos uploads section enjoy i have several questions what do i gain with this new bios how can i save a copy of my old bios in case i want to go back how do i install the new bios i d like to enjoy but need answers first it fixes some problems with microprose games after leaving f iii it would in vain try to find a floppy in drive a this has been fixed i don t know what other corrections were made it comes with an image of the original in case things don t work download glb exe format a bootable floppy disk and don t put a config sys or autoexec bat run the self extracting archive so all the files explode to the disk run the file fsh exe it should be self explanatory from there dan p s i was feeling extraordinarily generous once again so i uploaded the file to ftp cica indiana too daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu dcoleman ccwf cc utexas edu the university of texas at austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hardware for image processing we are doing a research about a passive dynamic vision guided vehicle completed the first theoric part we have to make the effective realization of this vehicle we need the necessary hardware for image acquisition from a videocamera and for their subsequent elaboration tipically edge detection we ask for informations about available products in the market for this purpose in real time frames second hence we need frame grabber cards and or dsp cards for sun or pc platform we are also very interested in receiving comments and suggestions from users of these cards especially about programming tools furthermore we are looking for the same kind of informations about digital controlled pan tilt devices thanks in advance best regards enrico fedrigo fedro paola dei unipd it
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	conflict controller grafic card i upgraded my old with dx local bus motherboard two month ago and with it i bought a controller card local bus and a grafic card diamond stealth vlb but when i try to put my new grafic card and my new controller together my system don t want to boot up it stop after controller card checking i have try to change my ami bios setup but nothing works just one thing when i disable my rom bios adress on my controller card my system do one more step checking all system and cache memory but nothing more thanks for answer chrobert
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	experience buying from tc computers i m planning to buy a computer and i like tc s ads can you tell anything about the company and their computers also if anyone has a company they would prefer please let me know thanks carlisle thacker miami fl
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dos i have a dx clone with a dtc esdi controller and toshiba mbyte drive since installing dos when i tried to re install software from or disks when i mount the second third fourth disks dos doesn t recognize that i have changed floppies if i do a dir i see the contents of the previous diskette the only way to get dos to recognize that diskettes have changed is to do a label and then to not label them buying dos has been a colossal mistake dos was stable and worked well with my equipment i have superstor pro and desqview x with qemm manifest etc so there aren t any features of dos that i am using i guess i should roll back to dos but i am wary of what will happen when i do it besides like a fool i don t have a dos bootable disk anymore i ve made the same mistakes i caution my users not to make like sheep i joined the crowd flocking to dos baaa baaad system administrator phillip culver silicon graphics inc mtn view ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	achieve multi io card jumpers needed i need the jumper settings for the achieve io card usually found in xt s it is affecting my video card and forcing the machine into col mode any help the ghoul hath spoken on a small obscure world somewhere in the middle of nowhere in particular nowhere that is that could ever be found since it is protected by a vast field of unprobability to which only six men in this galaxy have a key it was raining ii d a
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted floppy controller that can handle multiple floppies i need to duplicate a bunch of floppy disks and ideally would like to be able to keep to floppies busy simultaneously on a single pc yes i know that services to do this exist i know that standard isa bus floppy controllers can only have one drive active at a time i know that some controllers are available that can handle floppies with serialized access i know that microchannel machines can keep more than one floppy active simultaneously but does anyone have a controller for an isa bus pc that can simultaneously keep to floppies going how about for an eisa machine if the limitation is a software limitation i can work around that by using os on my pc new or used i m interested orville orville r weyrich jr weyrich computer consulting certified data processor pob scottsdale az certified systems professional voice certified computer programmer internet orville weyrich com no freedom without responsibility uucp uunet weyrich orville
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ibm pc xt switches i have an old ibm pc xt motherboard which has two banks of dip switches eight switches per bank i need to know which switch is required to install a hard disk does anyone have any archived documentation that would help me thanks jim jimd cae prds cdx mot com jim duda email x ljd email mot com motorola codex a k a jimd cae prds cdx mot com m s c voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re mitsumi and sb pro in article apr zip eecs umich edu grover emunix emich edu grover thomas writes just poke out the little pins in the connector and then replace them in the correct slots is this reverisible you can unpoke as easy as you poke regards b j guillot houston texas usa i don t believe in coffee
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	internet servers for university d our university is wanting to buy a couple of servers to provide email to students and faculty two servers are being lokked at for one to provide news service and one mail service from a proposed internet connection are there any foreseable problems with this proposed set up provided that ihets is providing an ethernet line from a cisco router into our network x dx mhz smc elite or tp eisa nic dual duplexed gb scsi with yr parts and labor on everything but the hard drives running univel unix for application servers we will run cc mail on a campus wide novell network to access these hopefully is there any other aspect i should be looking at which nic do i use is this enough disk space etc any help would be greatly appreciated christopher h meyers uunet meyers evansville edu university of evansville academic computing technician let s not and say we did
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cryix dlc cpu to all netters in my last post that concerning about the cyrix dlc cpu i said the benchmark program comptest stated there is a bug in cyrix cpus this is not true and i must apologize to the author of comptest the actual program that gives this report is f prot a virus detection and removal program the report stated there is a bug in the cx slc but not dlc sorry sorry sorry desmond li lut uk
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ati build drivers good build causes exceptions when i exit windows in fact i have had this happen on all builds after which shipped with my gateway system am i doing something wrong or is this problem commonly overlooked bob hofkin
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ip numbers on ethernet cards hi is it possible through either pin configuration or through software programming to change the ip numbers on an ethernet card thanks in advance dave tigger djohnson moose uvm edu tiggers are wonderful things dave c johnson
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scsi and ide what s the difference stupid question from a new ibm pc user i m going to be selling my mac and getting a gateway what is the difference between ide hd and scsi hd the gw dx v comes with a mb western digital ide drive i asked how much more for the seagate mb scsi drive the guy asked me why are you going with scsi i was lost for an answer i just said i know seagate better as a company from a satisfaction point of view are scsi drives faster than ide i m not buying my gw for another months or so but this is a question that has bugged me for a while tom n
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	feature connector on vga cards would someone please post or email the feature connector pin assignments this is sometimes referred to as the aux video connector in some documentation thanks astrachan austlcm sps mot com paul astrachan motorola telecom astrachan austlcm sps mot com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	i ve lost com help i have a clone and an internal modem set to com it worked fine until i upgraded to dos and at the same time reloaded windows now the system can t find com msd says com is n a and three of my four comm programs say hardware not present or some similar error message procomm however finds the modem no problem and works fine curiouser and curiouser any hints help thanks mike m mwvm mitre org these are my opinions only
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re can t set com in article mtc fnnews fnal gov uchima fncrdh fnal gov mike uchima writes i also am having a problem with com on a g k system i have a gateway k dx system with the ati ultrapro video card identical to the system mentioned in the original posting except mhz instead of for some reason the system refuses to recognize com for example if i configure the on board motherboard com ports for com com everything is fine if i configure them for com com com works ok but com is not recoznized the diagnostics shipped with the system the msd utility windows all act as if the port isn t there it s not an irq conflict because i can swap the irqs for com and com and com still works and com still doesn t i actually noticed this problem when trying to install additional ports a boca high speed s p card the behavior with the boca card was exactly the same e g it would work as com com or com but not as com this has the smell of an i o port conflict but i can t imagine with what there are no other expansion cards installed in the machine other than the video card and gateway would have to be pretty stupid to have the on board com conflict with something else on the motherboard has anybody else had this problem i ran into this about six months ago my system is a gw dx v megs ram meg ati gup vlb it seems the problem is that the ati graphics ultra pro card consumes the com port for some reason so only com are available i believe this is documented somewhere in the system manuals but i can t recall where dave peterschmidt
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	jumper settings for ungermann bass pcnic ethernet card does anybody have a data sheet handly for the above mentioned card i bought one sans manual at a local surplus shop and want to try it out with the crywyr packet driver suite the irq and interface select jumpers are pretty straightforward but i don t grok the settings of w w also labelled a through a could somebody tell me which settings of these four jumpers correspond to what i o addresses is there anything else about this card i should know before i plug play dave platt voice domain dplatt ntg com uucp netcomsv ntg dplatt usnail new technologies group inc embarcardero way palo alto ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cmos checksum error recently i have been getting a cmos checksum error when i first turn on my computer it doesn t happen everytime i turn it on nor can i predict when it is going to happen i have an ami bios and all of the setting are lost for example the drive types and the password options however the date and time remain correct if anyone knows what can be causing this please let me know thank you mike
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	my power supply fan makes an awful din what to do hi all of late my computer s power supply fan has begun to make a lot of noise what can i do about this if i had to get new power supply or get a new case where is a good place selling good tower cases and ps i know there are a couple dozen listed in the computer shopper but i was looking for personal experiences and recommendations divya live long and then die a slow and horrible death what confucius wanted to say
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dx math co pro vs dx which cpu will give the better performance on math intensive programs a dx or a dx thanks in advance chris teague
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	modem problem no dialtone i have a dx isa pc compatible insight with an infotel internal fax data modem with quicklinkii for windows when i first put the modem in i pulled a phone out of the jack in another room and ran a phone line extension to my surge protector and then my computer the modem worked fine then i split the line from the jack in the other room ran the line into my room into the surge protector and up to my computer then i got a regular phone and plugged that into the phone jack in the modem now when i try to use the modem quicklinkii says no dialtone the phone plugged into the back of the computer works fine i tried unplugging the phone but still no dice is it that the phone line was split too many times i don t understand how this could be a problem since the phone worked fine please note none of the software or hardware parameters were changed only the phone line itself is my new modem faulty what can i do david thomas dudek v pwxs ubvms bitnet the cybard state university dudek sun acsu buffalo edu of new york if music be the food of love buffalo play on wm shakespeare
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need spec of miniscribe hard drive i need info regarding a miniscribe half height drive there is a sticker on it with the following model hda pcba unique tda f aa ab aa but the sticker on the biggest chip on the mfm interface has this model pcba tda fxx ab what is the spec of the drive of cyl heads etc how fast is this drive can i use it as a rll drive i also have a scsi interface that seems to match all the connectors for this drive it has this description model pcba e p tda axx a a can i replace the mfm interface by the scsi interface and use the drive as a scsi drive what would the drive size be there is a set of jumpers on the scsi interface with sel besides it what is the use of it could someone also send me specs for seagate st full height drive my e mail is zhang whbws ms ornl gov thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re how is a null modem cable kevin kimmell computer science german undergrad ke kimmell vax cns muskingum edu wrote i am interrested in the extrodinarily simple concept of the null modem cable actually i have no idea so don t count that last statement what i m asking is what pins does it use or what are it s specifications i just want to solder one myself instead of buying one i don t even know what port is used help me please at ke kimmell vax cns muskingum edu kevin p s i m intending to use the cable for pc to pc transfers via lap link or telix ideas and info gladly accepted i do not have specific knowledge of lap link or telix but my recommendation for any package is to follow each one s instructions for making the null modem cable the reason is that each one may be different since there isn t really a standard for pc to pc communications the following is a tutorial i wrote up that will give you an understanding about rs and null modems but you should still check your software i will eplain a couple of details of rs rs is a commumications specification for communicating between a computer and a modem actually it can be between any end system and any communications hardware the terminology used is data terminal equipment dte and data communications equipment dce rs spells out the voltage levels the connector type the pinouts and the signal protocols the connector is a db but ibm has set an alternative standard of db the primary signals are transmit data td recieve data rd and signal ground sg there are other signals that provide control between the dte and the dce for example the dte announces that it is powered up and ready to participate in communications via the data terminal ready dtr signal dtr is an output on the dte and an input on the dce similarly the dce announces that it is ready to participate in communications via the data set ready dsr signal dsr is an input on the dte and an output on the dce ok that s five signals there are only four more of interest the request to send rts signal is an output from the dte and an input to the dce that is used to ask the dce permission to send data if the dce agrees it sends an ok via the clear to send cts signal for completeness the cts is an input to the dte and an output from the dce the other two signals of interest are ring indicator ri and data carrier detect dcd these are both inputs to the dte and outputs from the dce ri is just what you would expect a signal to the dte saying that someone is attempting to establish a connection to the dce this is rather specific to the modem telephone line setup dcd is a way for the dce to announce that the connection has been established i e the local dce is talking to some remote dce there that s it oh there are many other rs signals defined but they are obsolete i have explained the nine signals that are on a pc the pinouts are as follows name db db sg td rd dtr dsr dcd rts cts ri now to address your problem at hand when you connect a pc to a pc a dte to a dte there is no dce pair in the middle and therefore the rs signal definitions don t work out quite right there is no dce to assert the cts dsr dcd or ri so the common thing to do is to not use these signals at all and also forget about the dtr and rts outputs as well if this is done you simply make a null modem a cable that passes through sg and crosses td and rd i e pin of one end connects to pin at the other end etc the problem with this solution is that a pc that wants to send data has no way of knowing if the other pc is ready it would have to just send the data and hope it got through therefore a better null modem would include the dtr dsr pair crossed a particular point a confusion is in the software area just because you run the wires does not mean that the soft ware will use them if you are using the built in bios to control the serial port then the bios dictates what wires you need and how they are to be used but if you have a comm package such as brooklyn bridge or lap link or telix then those packages dictate the cabling requirements the only thing you can guess reliably is the sg td and rd the dtr dsr is also fairly common there is one more issue that needs to be addressed here and that is flow control in the rs scenerio the dce s are responsible for flow control and it is assumed that the dce couldn t possible over run the dte by this i mean that as long as the dte has its dtr line asserted the dce will send data without requesting permission first note the contrast to the other direction of data flow the dte must request permission by asserting the rts line and it must wait for the cts signal before it can send and now in the dte to dte scenerio the question is do you need flow control the answser is usually but how for non binary communications one common technique is xon xoff which is implemented in software no wires are dedicated to flow control the td and rd carry the xon and xoff commands this type of flow control can be used in addition to hardware flow control but the problem is that you can t send binary data because your data might include the xon or xoff codes and cause erroneous conrol signals a work around is to have the software insert and extract escape codes but the hardware flow control is prefered the problem with hard ware flow control is that there is no standard there are lots of ways to do it and i bet they have all been tried one cornerstone of all the methods is to use the rts cts for one direction but beyond that anything is fair game again you must look to you comm package for cabling requirements but i bet you ll find that one cable if wired properly could work with all of the packages as long as they are of the same vintage by the way i am familiar with one package that uses rts cts and dtr dsr for flow control the rts is request to send and the dtr is ready to recieve the cts is the clear to send and the dsr is the request to recieve this does not mean a differnt cable it is just software the clincher to all of this cabling stuff is that it is common to have the uart directly controlled by the cts signal which means that the cts must be present even if you are not support ing it in software for these cases you will find cables that short the rts to the cts at the same end or perhaps the dtr to the cts other possible shorting might be done just because the software expects certain signals that you don t have or don t feel like providing because it would mean additional wires specifically i am talking about the dsr shorting the dtr to the dsr is not a good idea in general but you may find cables like this it is a bad idea because it defeats the whole purpose one more gotcha signal is the dcd some software including the pc bios expects to see the dcd before it will work this signal sometimes gets shorted with the dtr but my favorite null modem has the rts and cts shorted at each end but the rts is also connected through to the other end and connected to dcd and of course the dtr dsr are crossed as are the td rd and of course the sg must pass through this null modem works with most software the flow control if any can use the rts dcd with the dtr dsr if your comm package does not specify the cable required for pc to pc connection then i suggest you use this one td rd rd td dtr dsr dsr dtr dcd rts rts dcd cts cts gordon lang
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	netware server a and s on wayne mcdougall had the unmitigated gall to say this wm the software is netware level ii and i can see burnt on to the wm screen sft netware level ii v a however to configure netware wm for level ii mirrored or duplexed disks requires a second disk yes yes mirroring requires a controller that is capable of writing to two disks at once duplexing which is the preferred way of mirroring uses two controller cards and two disk drives duplexing requires a special card and two identical disk drives in most cases duplexing can sometimes be pulled off with slightly different drives controllers as long as the sizes are the same wm so how is the novell server a normally configured the configuration is completely up to the user wm can i install sft netware level ii v a as level i or is this wm what is causing my serialization error if you only have one disk then you can t use level ii sft however the osobj disk has a serial number on it and if this disk is for a different version of netware then you would get a serialization error make sure that this disk actually belongs to the rest of the set of floppies in the netware installation set wm is the novell server a normally equipped with two hard drives wm one of which has failed two drives could be either two netware volumes at sft i or one volume mirrored using sft ii impossible to tell with the network being down wm would this mean i can not install the network software because it wm will not be serialized for this hardware with a failed drive try disconnecting the failed drive using a standard disk controller and installing the software as one volume under sft i if the software will install and if the one disk is functional then it should be able to work in this configuration wm what else can cause a serialization error see the comment concerning the serial number on the osobj installation floppy wm what happens if the keycard fails what is the keycard attached to line noise provided by south central bell blue wave qwk v the ozone hole bbs a private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics k bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	date is stuck on john bongiovanni had the unmitigated gall to say this suddenly the date no longer rolls over the time is reasonably accurate allways but we have to change the date by hand every morning this involves exiting the menu system to get to dos jb did i once hear that in order for the date to advance something like jb a clock has to make a get date system call apparently the clock jb hardware interrupt and bios don t do this date advance jb automatically the get date call notices that a midnight reset flag jb has been set and then then advances the date when a program uses a dos call to get the system it resets the flag that tells the bios that it has passed midnight it then uses this flag to increment the date if the menu does a call to the system to get the time before midnight before the bios sees the midnight flag then bios will not know that the day passed and the date will not get updated i might have some dos s and bios s mixed up darned cold messed up my brains but this has been a well documented problem for years i don t know of a workaround hope this helps two most common elements in the universe hydrogen stupidity blue wave qwk v the ozone hole bbs a private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics k bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ibm link to imagewriter on larry henson had the unmitigated gall to say this lh hello i am trying to hook an apple imagewriter to my ibm clone lh i seem to have a problem configuring my lpt port to accept this how lh can you adjust baud parity etc to fit the system i tried mode but lh it did not work if anyone can help post of e mail thanx lpt ports don t recognize baud parity etc settings you might be tring to connect a serial printer to a parallel port try this attach the serial port of the printer to a serial port on the pc use the mode command to set the com port settings try c mode com n to set the port parameters then use the mode command to redirect the printer port lpt like this c mode lpt com this should work good luck time flies like an arrow fruit flies like a banana blue wave qwk v the ozone hole bbs a private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics k bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	date is stuck on michael shapiro had the unmitigated gall to say this ms the dos system date has a twenty four hour clock and a rollover bit ms when the system crosses midnight the rollover bit is turned on ms subsequent reads of the time add one there s no change possible ms this information was current up through dos i ve not checked to ms see whether it applies to later versions just a small tidbit with the advent of dos and later versions ms added a small feature to the dos time function if a program sets the dos clock via dos system services then dos will set the bios clock to the same value this breaks the isolation between the two clocks that used to ensure that errors in the dos clock did not bleed over into the bios clock sometimes the microsoft people just don t think fact mickey mouse wears a al gore wristwatch blue wave qwk v the ozone hole bbs a private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics k bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how do i put an hd on an on r x getter had the unmitigated gall to say this rg this may be a dumb question but i need to put a hard drive on my rg father s pc xt either mfm rll or ide i know how to hook it up but rg how do i tell the computer the geometry of the drive on my you rg set it in the bios but i doubt that s how it s done on an xt i most xt ide controllers are responsible for keeping track of the drive geometry and getting the information to the computer the controller may come with software to update its on board bios or may be designed to work with a particular drive seagate drives usually have special controllers for use on xt s and these are tailored to the drive also you cannot low level format an ide drive the low level format is stored on specal magnetic areas on the disk surface called servos not like the electronic use of the term that need a higher recording bias than the drive s recording heads can generate don t try to low level format an ide drive p e t a people for the eating of tasty animals blue wave qwk v the ozone hole bbs a private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics k bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	where can i buy a bios on ikos had the unmitigated gall to say this ik i m in the market to upgrade my bios to a phoenix got a new hard ik disk discovered my bios doesn t have a type and i would like ik know where i can purchase one of these things call phoenix they can put you on line with replacement bios chips i had to do this when i upgraded a emerson to an ide drive also if you are installing an ide drive and there is a bios setting that has a total volume the same as the ide drive s volume try using it the ide drive can usually respond to a variety of different geometries as long as the setting that you use is equal to or smaller than the drive s actual size the controller will do the necessary translation automatically in most cases warning do not use a bios setting that is even one byte larger than the actual size of the drive a smaller setting will not harm the drive but you will be sorry if you go even one byte over drive damage will not result but headaches will backup not found a bort r etry p anic blue wave qwk v the ozone hole bbs a private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics k bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	modems and noisy lines on juan carlos leon had the unmitigated gall to say this jcl i just got a problem i have a cheapo bps modem which i use to jcl connect to my university but i get too much garbage on the screen i jcl do know it s because the noise in the line i can actually hear it jcl so my question is will an error correction protocol help to eliminate jcl this garbage my modem doesn t have any of these on hardware can a jcl software implemented protocol do the trick there is a software version of mnp available from mtez and it will often connect with other modems that are mnp compatible but if the modem that you are connecting to doesn t support mnp then it won t help error correcting modems will eliminate line noise but only id there are error correcting modems on both ends of the conncetion the added soeed is much worth the price of error correcting modems baud v bis modems are very reasonable and they are only about slower than the more expensive modems on the market my hard disk is full maybe i ll try this message section thing blue wave qwk v the ozone hole bbs a private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics k bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway booting fr on tim king had the unmitigated gall to say this tk accidentally discovered that if a have a floppy from one particular tk box of diskettets in the a drive when i boot up rather than getting tk the non system diskette message the machine hangs and the cmos tk gets overwritten luckily gateway sends a print of the standard just a wild thought here but how about this there is a small boot program on every formatted diskette whether or not it contains system files it is this small program that prints the non system disk error not dos if this program tries to transfer control to a bios location that is nonstandard on the gateway then it could clear the bios i don t think that the bios is overwritten there is usually a small routine to clear the cmos area in case an invalid configuration prevents the machine from booting i think that the boot code on the fuji disks may inadvertantly call this routine just a thought don t hit me mr moderator i ll go back on topic i swear blue wave qwk v the ozone hole bbs a private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics k bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	com ports on mark had the unmitigated gall to say this ma does anyone know what the standard port addresses are for com ports ma through if there is a standard of any sort there are no standards for pc com ports above com while there are de facto standards for com they are not guarenteed to work the ps can use up to ports i think but i don t know the specs good luck i tried to contain myself but i escaped blue wave qwk v the ozone hole bbs a private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics k bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need help info on hard drive terms hi all i ve been installing a new hard drive recently and have run into several terms that i m not sure about hard sectored soft sectored what s the difference how do i know which to use head skew cylinder skew i understand that these are related to performance how do i know what s optimal my drive is an esdi drive if that makes a difference in discussing these terms any info help is greatly appreciated david carlson ucunix san uc edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	more than type of controller is it possible to put more than controller in a pc by this i mean of different types ie rll and mfm if so how do you access the drives in the cmos setup do they just show up to be configured or do you have to do low level writes to the controller as an example put rll controller with drives in a machine put a mfm controller and more drives connected to it i now have drives with controllers of different types also can you put controllers of the same type into a pc and again how do you access them i was asked this question and never tried to do it so if anyone has done this and can supply me with info i would very pleased thanx in advance for any info philip r spagnolli actor telerama pgh pa us aliases actor mentor poet relfkin hobbies rpg writing computers acting reading philosophy mudding disclaimer since i can only know my own existance i can offend no one
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dx isa vlb xor dx eisa advice wanted hi i need some advice opinions regarding which pc would best suit my needs i want to use this proposed beast for basically four things editing documents using wordperfect under dos creating graphs analyzing data using sigmaplot v under dos editing playing with images using aldus photostyler running under windows these images can be large say k x k bits pixel using the pc as an xterminal running desqview x and sun pc nfs talking to our network of sparcstation s this is where a lot of the images data come from and is the most demanding of these tasks i ve read read read pc magazines performed benchmarks read this newsgroup and decided that a nice system price performance would be dx k cache isa vlb meg ram ati graphics ultra pro meg ram local bus monitor x ni com etherlink iii bit maxtor mb ide hard drive however the parts don t fit our local retailer apparently put one of these together only to discover that the ati card wouldn t run at mhz surprise surprise actually after reading this group i m surprised that they even have a mhz local bus running i have a choice now between basically the above system but with a dx with isa and vlb or a dx with eisa and no vlb and thus the non local bus version of the ati card which is better keeping in mind that i m primarily interested in the last two tasks any help would be greatly appreciated i need to decide quickly so any speedy help would be appreciated even more btw we have a system now to perform these tasks it has the following configuration dx k cache isa meg ram ati graphics ultra meg ram monitor x ni smc ethercard bit maxtor mb ide hard drive we re quite happy with the ati card very fast once the data gets to it slow repainting images under photostyler that have moved off screen or been uncovered there doesn t seem to be enough raw cpu when running desqview x its sluggish running the local window manager also many functions under photostyler take a long time even when the images fit entirely in ram there s not enough memory in the system desqview x and a meg smartdrive don t leave much room for other apps photostyler will page to disk with medium size images i have performed a number of benchmarks on the ethernet transfer rates this machine sustains only k sec over ethernet while our sparcs sustain k sec on the same network going to the bit version of the smc card increases transfer rates to k sec still very slow especially when moving large images is there such a thing as a local bus ethernet card coming will it make a difference i m hoping so and leaning towards the dx choice above for that reason also are there dx s on the horizon what about dx s dx s any information is greatly appreciated ross mitchell imaging research lab rmitch irus rri uwo ca john p robarts research institute p o box perth drive office london ontario canada n a k home
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	western digital ide hd s what are peoples opinions on the above make of hard drives i seem to have found a really good bargain on a meg drive but i thought i d check if anyone had any comments to say on this make also i m a bit of a novice with pc s but an experienced computer user when connecting and fitting this drive into one of my spare bays what extras will i need a cable for starters i guess but what about brackets etc also i think i might have to change some jumpers on the drive and my original connar meg one i ll be attaching the second drive to a seperate ide socket on my controler card what will i need to change yet again many thanks to all that have answered me in the past and to any that answer me in the future me the artist has produced all this with my own imagination and skill oi yes you at the back stop laughing jat uk ac cov cch is mirrir skippy jase slarts pick
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	can you put an isa card into an eisa slot howdy netlanders can you put an isa card into an eisa slot also can you put a bit pc card in an isa slot please e mail if possible thanks ahead of time david munoz munoz bcstec boeing com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re floppy only reads what it wrote in article netxcom netx com pdressne netxcom netx com peter dressner writes i have a gateway with a floppy the drive only reads files it wrote to the floppy floppies that have been formatted and contain files from other machines are unreadable also floppies that were written by this defective floppy drive a long time ago are also unreadable this sounds like a head alignment problem how does one go about fixing it are there alignment screws that you can adjust thanks in advance for your responses peter a friend of mine had the same problem it turned out that his floppy was set up as a mb drive instead of mb might help matt crowley just remember i ll have known that deep down srg uk ac coventry cck inside you were just enough of a bastard to be worth liking
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	identify this hd actually from alistair scott afs tauon ph unimelb edu au i have come across a old external hard disk and i can t find any specs for it anywhere it is made by nec yes i tried tech support no help and it has a model number apc h c and is labelled expansion hard disk can anyone help me out with figuring out what this beast is the external connector looks like a scsi plug and the date on the drive chassis is os it s pretty old i just want to see what it is before i deep six it or rip it apart for bits thanks alistair afs tauon ph unimelb edu au
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	seagate hd jumper schematics i am trying to setup two seagate tech hard drives as master and slave in the same system what i need to do such is the jumper schematics of the two hard drives that i have my two seagate hd st a mb st a mb i need the jumpter setting schematics for these two harddrives thanx for you help in advance aj ajp uxa cso uiuc edu an ideal wife is the woman who has an ideal husband
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re how hot should the cpu be the temp on my dx is over c measured with a k type thermocouple and fluke dig thermometer this is an idle temp not doing lots of bus i o not doing floating point not doing bit protected mode etc this is in a micron computer without heatsink i recently put a heatsink fan on the chip but i might take the fan off it makes a horrible whine at times and i wonder what the vibration is doing to the pins on the cpu etc rob scholten scholten epg nist gov
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re motherboard advice needed in article r r jethro corp sun com lonewolf muse corp sun com peter pak writes hi does anyone have a source for dx motherboards i ve been calling around the local stores and everyone appears to be only stocking the dx or sx motherboards how difficult is it to modify a dx motherboard to run at mhz is it as simple as replacing the system clock with a slower part thanks peter i know you work at sun but that s really no reason not to like fast computers i suspect a conspiracy here are you trying to drag intel through the mud at a con or something i really wish you guys would make your own computers faster instead of degrading others why don t you go straight for the top and run a pentium at mhz while you re at it seriously though why in the bleeding hell do you want a to run at mhz insert smiley where appropriate mail mail gunnarh sofus dhhalden no snail mail gunnar horrigmo gunnarh fenris dhhalden no oskleiva n norway disclaimer the above posting may seem like insignificant rubbish at first glance but if you read between the lines you will be surprised to discover the annals of burt bacharach world peace oxford advanced readers dictionary quantum physics made easy and an easy to use step by step walkthrough on how to make a time travelling device that actually works
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes wayne amtower spacecoast org writes ide also uses dma techniques i believe floppy controller also uses dma and most a d boards also use dma dma is no big deal and has nothing to do directly with scsi no the simple style ide controller does not use dma the cpu performs the data transfer with a string move instruction this requires that the cpu stop what it had been doing and transfer the data only the smart drive controllers be they ide or scsi can transfer via dma these controllers tend to cost the same wether they are ide or scsi to get the dma benefits ide must sacrifice it s price advantage on the controller for example when rewinding or formatting a tape the command is issued to the controller and the bus is released to allow access to other devices on the bus this greatly increases productivity or at least do something else while backing up your hard drive which happens to be what i am doing while reading this group you can thank your software for that if dos had a few more brains it could format floppies etc while you were doing something else the hardware will support it but dos at least won t again this has nothing to do with scsi floppies aren t on the ide bus your arguement makes no sense this isn t an ide issue the floppys have their own processor on their controller board which handles all of these commands the difference between ide and scsi is that all scsi peripherials are intelligent they each have their own controller they depend on the cpu to do fewer things for them i e ide drives needing a processor to transfer their data its a long story but i still use ide on my except for the cdrom which thanks to scsi i can move between both machines if and when scsi is better standardized and supported on the ibm clone machines i plan to completely get rid of ide and if you stick with dos you ll wonder why you can t multitask again i ask why can t a unix or os type os do all the miraculous things with an ide harddrive that it can with a single scsi hard drive the dettach callback mechanism alows the cpu to make requests of the devices on the scsi bus and then dettach and go about its business later when the device is done it issues a callback to say that the data has arrived or the function has completed most scsi cards will also dma the data into memory without the interupting the cpu therefore allowing it to continue working uninterupted ide supports no such concept as dettach callback can you see how this would be a win in any multitasking system david willmore willmore iastate edu death before dishonor better dead than greek david willmore ever noticed how much they look like orchids lovely
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re how do i put an hd on an xt many all xt drive controllers have their own bios on board to handle low level formatting the bios also allows you to set up the drive properly of cylinders heads etc andy robinson cs psu edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	question about irq and irq i have an bit serial card with two ports each port has the option of using irq or i also have two serial ports on a multi i o card and the ports can be set to irq or from other posts i ve read i get the impression that irq on the bit card is the same as irq on the multi i o card am i right eric dittman texas instruments component test facility dittman skitzo dseg ti com disclaimer not even my opinions i found them by the side of the road
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re where can i buy a bios in article ikosc t lt j r netcom com ikos netcom com ikos writes i m in the market to upgrade my bios to a phoenix got a new hard disk discovered my bios doesn t have a type and i would like know where i can purchase one of these things so can anybody help me out on this quest pick up a copy of pc magazine or byte and look in the classifieds and small print ads in the back there are a handful of shops that specialize in bios upgrades mike schuster schuster panix com compuserve com schuster shell portal com genie mschuster
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re how do i put an hd on an xt in article apr ultb isc rit edu rxg ultb isc rit edu r x getter writes this may be a dumb question but i need to put a hard drive on my father s pc xt either mfm rll or ide i know how to hook it up but how do i tell the computer the geometry of the drive on my you set it in the bios but i doubt that s how it s done on an xt i thought it might be software with the controller card but the ide card for xt s that i saw didn t come with any also how do i low level format it once it s on the computer assuming a drive which needs formatting since there is no bios support for st interface hard disks in an xt that support must come from a bios extension rom on the mfm rll hard disk controller usually the controller has a rom based low level format program a common jump address is c you can type g c from debug to see and a small table of drive geometries it knows about sometimes these are selectable using jumpers on the card sometimes you can enter them manually in the llf menu failing that you must use a third party hd prep program like speedstor disk manager or the like ide drives come formatted already and since the is controller part of the drive mechanism itself concerns about geometry are irrelevant plug it in and go to fdisk mike schuster schuster panix com compuserve com schuster shell portal com genie mschuster
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cd rom drive help hello all i recently acquired a cd rom drive a mitsumi mfg feb hey it was free i m quite pleased with the performance but it seems to crash a lot when i use playcd exe that came with it a desqview thoughts this mainly happens when my bbs is running in the background and i load the program up if i load the program it doesn t crash and i start the disk stop the program and start the bbs its ok but otherwise i have big problems ie they can only be solved with a cold boot if anybody can mail me to help me i would be eternally grateful unfortunately my feed to this group is a little unreliable so i would appreciate if you could mail but by all means post it too because i m sure somebody else would like to know cheers wes wes garland at queen s university terminal velocity kingston kingston ontario canada fidonet usenet access free jeff lab queensu ca school v bis bps wes garland tvk gtm inc com home send email to set up full access account
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re vl bus hdd fdd controller or ide hdd fdd controller in article apr grebyn com richk grebyn com richard krehbiel writes in article hpsgm sgp hp com taybh hpsgm sgp hp com beng hang tay writes hi i am buying a quantum lps at mb hardisk and is deciding a hdd fdd controller is bit vl bus hdd fdd controller faster than bit ide hdd fdd controller card no vl bus ide is no faster than isa ide the ide interface is fundamentally nothing more than an extension of the isa bus and if you hook it to vl bus it ll work as fast as the slower of the two meaning isa speed it s not true ide bus uses signals which has similar name and same meaning to the counterpart of isa bus but its ide bus signal timing doesn t have to be same to isa signal timing my vl ide bus card has a set of jumpers to set its transfer rate from mb sec up to mb sec the manufacturer might have to correct these numbers as milion byte sec and milion byte sec respectively you cannot transfer data at a rate of mb sec on the isa bus i hear that the vl bus controller is slower than a ide controller on the other hand i wouldn t expect it to be slower richard krehbiel richk grebyn com os will do for me until amigados for the comes along ken nakata i apologize if there are incorrect rude and or impolite expressions in this mail or post they are not intended please consider that english is a second language for me and i don t have full understanding of certain words or each nuance of a phrase thank you ken nakata cis student njit
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	upgrading the processor on machines in case anyone was wondering about upgrading their or class machine without spending a lot of money i looked into replacing the processor on those machines and here are the facts as i understand them if you have a ps model or model you can replace the i chip with either a cyrix dlc chip for which will increase your processing power by about for normal fuctions and not at all for math functions this chip will only run at your original clock speed ie if you have a mhz machine the cyrix dlc will run at mhz note windows does not use the math functions so it is a good upgrade if you are running windows or you can get a kingston now platform for with a mhz i sx on it which will increase your normal processing power by about if you were running at mhz originally but again it will not increase the speed of your math fuctions i think that it will continue to run at mhz even if your original processor runs at a slower speed there is also the kingston now platform for with a mhz i dx on it this might speed up your math functions as well but i am not sure if you have a ps model b or other ps machine with either an i sx or a non clock doubling i dx ie it runs at either or mhz in it then you can get an intel overdrive chip which is really an i dx chip and replace your chip with it you should get about better preformance for both normal and math functions the mhz version of the overdrive chip costs and the mhz version costs the replacement for the mhz sx chip is an espeacially good deal as it provides the math coprocessor which the sx does not have note that the speed ratings on the overdrive chips are the maximum speed at which they can run if you have a mhz sx then the overdrive chip will run at mhz ie mhz externally and mhz internally there is no reason to buy an overdrive chip which is rated at faster then your machine you will not get faster performance you should be able to buy these chips from any of the microchip merchants that advertise at the back of pc magazine or pc week you might want to shop around as prices do vary if you need a name phone number for a source for a particular chip e mail me and i will respond with a couple of sources lawrence khoo khoo husc harvard edu lawrence khoo computer consultant khoo haavelmo harvard edu econ dept harvard u
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need info on wd i need to find how to program the wd faast scsi controller a bit dma scsi controller for the pc isa bus can somebody point me in the direction of some low level docs on the net or will i have to get hold of the manufacturers who did actually make this anyway who will have the docs tia ps i don t ant the bios docs i want to know how to attack this sucker from the ground level ie send my own scsi commands out it from os hamish marson computer services university of waikato hamish waikato ac nz fax computers are only disclaimer remember you heard it here first human facts are stubborn but statistics are more pliable
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help second hd install i am considering adding to my system equipped with a meg maxtor hd a second maxtor meg hd i assume this will not be a problem however i remember reading somewhere that to do this you needed to reformat your original drive is this true if so why my drive is full and i really don t like the idea of to re installing everything from floppy please e mail me or post to the group mike mike tancsa internet mdtancsa watarts uwaterloo ca waterloo ontario mike tancsa canrem com canada rosereader p entered at crs canada remote systems toronto ontario
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cfv comp publish cdrom hardware multimedia software c a l l f o r v o t e this is the official call for a vote on the creation of newsgroups for those engaged or interested in all areas relating to the publishing of any sort of cdrom material please repost this cfv to any newsgroup listserver or reflector that you think might have a group interested in this subject in order to reach as broad an audience as possible every vote counts so make sure you register yours if you want these groups to be created proposed groups comp publish cdrom hardware comp publish cdrom software comp publish cdrom multimedia status unmoderated voting period from the appearance of this posting to est may how to vote all votes must be emailed to manaster yu yu edu or sent as a reply to the originator of this cfv manaster yu yu edu to vote simply copy the example below and delete either the yes or the no before each group to register your vote for or against the creation of that group a line containing yes no as in the example below will be considered an abstention with respect to that particular group note that each group will have its own separate vote count and that you may split your vote for the groups or abstain as you will please provide your name and e mail address as shown in the example below email your vote following this example subject re vote on comp publish cdrom i vote yes no for the creation of comp publish cdrom software i vote yes no for the creation of comp publish cdrom hardware i vote yes no for the creation of comp publish cdrom multimedia last name first name e mail address voting rules only one vote per user two different people cannot vote under the same user name any votes which are received before or after the voting period will be discarded anyone who wants to change their previous vote may do so by voting again they must indicate that they have previously voted and are changing their mind in a footnote a changed vote will discard your previous vote email messages sent to the above addresses must constitute unambiguous and unconditional votes for against newsgroup creation as proposed conditional votes will not be accepted only votes emailed to the above addresses will be counted mailed replies to this posting will be discarded in the event that more than one vote is placed by an individual only the first vote will be counted unless it was changed as above no information will be supplied as to how people are voting until the final acknowledgment is made at the end at which time the full vote will be made public ambiguous votes ambiguous votes those who do not follow the specified format or do not make clear the voter s intent will where possible be returned to their senders for clarification ambiguous votes which cannot be returned to their senders or for which no clarification is provided will be identified in the final vote tally every vote counts feel free to flood my mail rationale the rationale for this proposal is a need for those interested or involved in the publishing of cdrom materials to have a forum for the discussion relating to their needs at the moment the main fora for such discussion are in alt cd rom and comp multimedia neither of which have publishing as their focus some lists serve the general cdrom community with focuses on library government and network usage and until several weeks ago none were devoted to publishing cdpub has just been setup in any case a list is not and ought not be a replacement for regular usenet newsgroups the reason for the division into three groups is a natural partition of interest between the hardware and software topics and between the two main focal points of software i e fulltext and multimedia publishing topics such as cdrom xa cdi cd r photo cd and other related formats would be included as well topics related to cdrom publishing that are neither clearly hardware or software related such as books copyright issues and other legal matters packaging distribution could be included in the purvue of comp publish cdrom software as would any other nonhardware or multimedia topic that relates in some way to cdrom publishing in any format and is appropriate to the internet the main focus of comp publish cdrom software would be topics such as index and retrieval software premastering software cdrom simulation software hypertext sgml scanning and imaging software data capture software data clean up compression encryption etc as relates to publishing cdroms the main focus of comp publish cdrom multimedia would be software that aids in the multimedia authoring and publishing process audio and video the main focus of comp publish cdrom hardware would be hardware that relates to cdrom publishing as well as hardware for data capture such as all sorts of scanners and data capture hardware as well as information that publishers need to know about the hardware that the intended enduser will utilize the hardware that will eventually play the published cdrom including networks for cdrom notes these groups are not to be used for topics such as reviews or questions relating to already published cdroms or reviews or questions relating to general purpose cdrom drives and the like requests for help in installing a cdrom drive and other general topics should be directed to other fora questions about cdroms mounted on lans should be directed to bit listserv cdromlan charter proposed charter comp publish cdrom software the usenet newsgroup comp publish cdrom software will be a newsgroup for discussion of the following example topics but not limited to them index and retrieval software authoring software scanning and imaging software ocr and ocr cleanup hypertext sgml premastering and simulation cdrom software copyright and legal issues related to publishing cdroms other nonhardware topics related to cdrom publishing proposed charter comp publish cdrom hardware the usenet newsgroup comp publish cdrom hardware will be a newsgroup for discussion of the following example topics but not limited to them cd r equipment data capture hardware scanners video and audio capture hardware networking hardware midi hardware photo cd hardware publishing systems cdi and dvi hardware compression and encryption hardware keyboarding other hardware publishing topics proposed charter comp publish cdrom multimedia the usenet newsgroup comp publish cdrom multimedia will be a newsgroup for discussion of the following example topics but not limited to them multimedia authoring software imaging software audio and midi software color control software video editing software audio editing software multimedia utilities useful for publishers integration of text image audio and video compression and encryption of multimedia multimedia copyright and related legal issues multimedia databases and hypertext other multimedia publishing topics henry manaster email manaster yu yu edu brooklyn ny disclaimer the above is not necessarily my opinion nor that of anyone else
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help dip switch settings on an ast hot shot could someone please tell me what the dip switches on the back of the ast hot shot accellerator card do i recently acquired the card and did not get any docs any information will be appreciated rob robert m bultman speed scientific school university of louisville internet rmbult starbase spd louisville edu robert m bultman speed scientific school university of louisville internet rmbult starbase spd louisville edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	any body have more than meg ram on a leading edge i have a leading edge sx with megs of ram that are in the forms of meg simms each simm has two chips on it they are manufactured by samsung and are ns a salesman told me that the leading edge cpc motherboard has the extra parity bit built in and reccomemnded i use mac simms i tried using megs pulled out of a mac si these are chip simms but i got too many windows protection faults and parity errors i guess i should use the same simms as the ones i have but i can t find any most of the places i have called carry only or chip simms so if anybody knows where i can get memory that is good with my computer or if you have any suggestions at all please let me know any help is truly appreciated eric ebosco us oracle com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re wincim at baud i ve had similar problems downloading using wincim i discovered that if i disabled data compression on my modem it works fine
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with et hicolor modes can any body tell me where the most significant bit of the total horizontal width hides out on the tseng labs et with a bit dac i am trying to use the x x m mode under unix so i cant just call int h i have a program which dumps the contents of the card registers under dos but i am not sure i trust it for the extended registers of the et anyway the problem is that in this mode the horizontal total register d h index is apparently set to x but d h index the displayed clocks is set to xef so x is nonsense a resonable value would be x so is there a high bit and if so where is it also how does one set the video dot clock to the appropriate frequency and what would be an appropriate frequency the documentation isn t really very clear tseng txt from vgadoc zip from some ftp site about this my card is a megavga mb card seems to have a tseng labs bios ver i think works nicely under dos and very well under unix linux in all the non hicolor modes great for running x windows in up to x x ni if your monitor will take it only just in my case please email the answer as i can t read news very often thanks very much david
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	programming the beeper i need to be able to cause a beep but without using any interrupt routines as i cannot use the bios i believe that the pic might have something to do with it but i m having troubles deciphering the information i have on it to figure out how to program it i m programming all of this in turbo c if that makes any diference at all please can anyone help me thanks nicola
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors in article c pisw kq cs mcgill ca gerardis cs mcgill ca the gif emporium writes nec fg or now also available the nec fge only difference no accucolor any experiences or opinions from people who have used the nec fg would be appreciated since i want to get one right after my exams are all done ie about a week from now i have a fg and think it is great i haven t seen the nanao s so i can t compare but the fg image is very sharp and the color contrast is extremely good i ve used other trinitron monitors e g a sun ss color monitors which is a trinitron and think the fg is at least as good perhaps brighter and has none of these silly horizontal lines running across btw i could be wrong but i thought that the fge is slower as well as missing accucolor it may not be able to handle x the way the fg can cheers dan ts o div neuroscience baylor college of medicine baylor plaza s houston tx tso cephalo neusc bcm tmc edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	speed led s for a gateway motherboard hi i recently got a tower case for my gateway file server mostly because we needed the extra drive bays and better power supply this case has led s for the processor speed i e is there a place to plug this in on the motherboard if not is there anyway to hack something to make it work tia eric eric j huppertz ejhupper ilstu edu hey these aren t my rules come to think of it i don t have any rules beetlejuice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re archive controler frederic pierre fred sobel u strasbg fr wrote hello i m looking for a supplier of archive tape drive controlers european preferred who could provide me an sc s card for my old l drive who knows where i could find such a beast i thank you in advance for your attention i m similarly looking for controllers for archive c even the number to contact archive or whatever the company is called would help gerry george anything good in life is either school of management boston univ illegal immoral or fattening internet ggeorge acs bu edu any item not in the above three compu erve compuserve com categories causes cancer in rats
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re modems and noisy lines on apr gmt chris crayton chris crayton ozonehole com wrote there is a software version of mnp available from mtez and it will often connect with other modems that are mnp compatible but if the modem that you are connecting to doesn t support mnp then it won t help error correcting modems will eliminate line noise but only id there are error correcting modems on both ends of the conncetion the added soeed is much worth the price of error correcting modems baud v bis modems are very reasonable and they are only about slower than the more expensive modems on the market what is mtez a dealer a repository any details penio penev x w internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cpu fans n p just got a mhz dx system and am considering getting a fan for the n p cpu the processor when running is too hot to touch so i think this is a n p fairly good idea long ago when i did some electronics training i read n p somewhere that the regions within a chip that define junctions gates etc n p slowly diffuse over time and this increases with temperature hence a hot n p chip goes off spec sooner n p has anyone out there got a cpu fan i work for a small pc oem we offer both a personal and professional system line our pro machines always have a cpu cooling fan on dx and dx units n p is there more than type there are several manufacturers n p do you have to remove the cpu from its scoket to install the fan sometimes depends on the specific fan model n p do all cpu fans derive their power from spare drive power lines all the ones i ve seen do many come with a y connector so you don t have to have a spare connector n p anyone had any trouble with cpu fans none n p does anyone have any evidence that cpu fans are a complete waste of money touch a dx chip after its been running a few minutes you won t feel the fan is a waste n p how are these fans attached glue clips melted cheese depends on the model many use clips make sure you use heat sink grease or heat transfering tape or you will have wasted your money n p roughly how much cooler will the cpu be with a fan as opposed to without an advert i ve read claims f vs f tough to tell i do know the chip sheds a lot of heat slmr a murphy was an optimist is your data backed up via dlgqwk v a
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re laplink serial parallel cables serial cables there are only three output signals td dtr and rts there are five inputs signals rd dsr dcd cts and ri there are many differnt null modem requiremts as dictated by the software the ibm bios requires asserts dtr and rts and then waits for both dsr and cts before sending when a bios recieve call is made it asserts dtr and waits for dsr to become true times out after a while and returns with an error if dsr never becomes true it requires cts to be true for sending and recieving most communications packages bypass this and replace it with their own protocol the key is that each comm package could very well have different requirements my favorite cable works in many cases short rts to cts at each end but also run rts through to dcd at the opposite end td runs through to rd and dtr runs through to dsr from both dte s and of course sg goes through to sg i have never had trouble with this null modem even though i have used it with a comm package that was expecting rts to go to cts instead of dcd the advantage of this cable is that it also works with the ibm bios gordon lang
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re problems with toshiba cdrom imj cunixa cc columbia edu imad m jureidini writes hi i recently purchased the toshiba cdrom i own an adaptec b scsi card and i have so far failed to get the cdrom to work under dos it works very well under os so i know that the drive is not faulty in my config sys i have aspi dos sys aspidisk sys aspicd sys in my autoexec bat i have mscdex which came with dos mscdex seems to find and install the drive as drive f but when i switch to that drive and try a dir i get an error message telling me the drive is not ready or something like that the cdrom is locked too and the adaptec utilities don t seem to recognize that i have a cdrom at that point the current adaptec drivers do not support the toshiba you should get the corel scsi drivers which do support it this is the method that i used and it works well corel s phone number is just a satisfied user jb jonathan bayer intelligent software products inc winthrop rd jbayer ispi com edison nj
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx isa vlb xor dx eisa advice wanted on thu apr gmt ross mitchell rmitch irus rri uwo ca wrote i want to use this proposed beast for basically four things editing documents using wordperfect under dos creating graphs analyzing data using sigmaplot v under dos editing playing with images using aldus photostyler running under windows these images can be large say k x k bits pixel using the pc as an xterminal running desqview x and sun pc nfs talking to our network of sparcstation s this is where a lot of the images data come from and is the most demanding of these tasks i ve read read read pc magazines performed benchmarks read this newsgroup and decided that a nice system price performance would be dx k cache isa vlb meg ram ati graphics ultra pro meg ram local bus monitor x ni com etherlink iii bit maxtor mb ide hard drive however the parts don t fit our local retailer apparently put one of these together only to discover that the ati card wouldn t run at mhz surprise surprise actually after reading this group i m surprised that they even have a mhz local bus running i have a choice now between basically the above system but with a dx with isa and vlb or a dx with eisa and no vlb and thus the non local bus version of the ati card which is better keeping in mind that i m primarily interested in the last two tasks having in mind the size of the images my opinion is to go with vlb it has much more bandwith that eisa which in fact can be utilized by the craphics card i have not made measures so someone else may share experience on that also the dx is faster in the operations that run off internal cache slightly slower off the external and about the same off memory so my advice is the vlb we re quite happy with the ati card very fast once the data gets to it slow repainting images under photostyler that have moved off screen or been uncovered there doesn t seem to be enough raw cpu when running desqview x its sluggish running the local window manager also many functions under photostyler take a long time even when the images fit entirely in ram there s not enough memory in the system desqview x and a meg smartdrive don t leave much room for other apps photostyler will page to disk with medium size images have you tried running photostyler without the cache no need to have paging and cache both well you might argue that the paging is cached my belief no measurements is that apps left with more memory will manage it better than smartdrv exe sys i have performed a number of benchmarks on the ethernet transfer rates this machine sustains only k sec over ethernet while our sparcs sustain k sec on the same network going to the bit version of the smc card increases transfer rates to k sec still very slow especially when moving large images is there such a thing as a local bus ethernet card coming will it make a difference i m hoping so and leaning towards the dx choice above for that reason the bandwidth theoretical of isa is over mb s which is far from mb s i tried my isa ide hard drive maxtor mb and got the same results mb s regardless of the isa bus speed mhz so i guess that just the card drivers combination is lousy also are there dx s on the horizon what about dx s dx s the rumors are that dx if any is the most likely chip to come out but note that ibm is closest to the technology an it will only sell whole motherboards so you ll have to upgrade the mb any information is greatly appreciated just some view not much figures penio penev x w internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi on mon apr gmt wayne smith wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wrote in article richk apr gozer grebyn com richk grebyn com richard krehbiel writes so when you ve got multi tasking you want to increase performance by increasing the amount of overlapping you do one way is with dma or bus mastering either of these make it possible for i o devices to move their data into and out of memory without interrupting the cpu the alternative is for the cpu to move the data there are several scsi interface cards that allow dma and bus mastering how do you do bus mastering on the isa bus as an earlier post noted through dma ide however is defined by the standard at interface created for the ibm pc at which requires the cpu to move all the data bytes with no dma if we re talking isa at bus here then you can only have dma channel active at any one time presumably transferring data from a single device so even though you can have at least devices on a scsi bus explain how all of those devices can to dma transfers through a single scsi card to the isa at bus at the same time any one time means imho a single byte xfer if i have four sources of dma requests ready the dma would service the one after the other if the bandwidth for the four together is lower than the isa dma bandwidth this will work note that the bus mastering here is the priority mechanism in the dma controller penio penev x w internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	consumer warning midwest micro ohio thinking of buying from midwest micro of ohio think very carefully unless you are absolutely sure you won t have any problems you may want to trade elsewhere despite the fact that they answer the phone hi i m whoever and we re having a great day they weren t quite so happy when i wanted to return a modem that didn t work as i expected it to the details i ordered one of their house brand infotel df internal fax modems in reality it was a twincom lightning fax that had a paper sticker over the name given the poor reports on the net about this modem i would not have ordered it had i known this in advance it arrived on time the documentation stated that it would work and was preconfigured as com providing that com was not in use at the same time for several reasons i have a serial card configured for com com at the time i installed the modem nothing was connected to com although the modem appeared to work during every connection at or it would randomly break the connection and hang up the phone after spending some time on the phone with midwest s tech support they suggested disabling the com port this appeared to solve the disconnect problem but was an unacceptable long term solution i had to have com and available even though they both would not be in use at the same time as the modem i called back minutes prior to their closing and waited in voicemail hell listening to repeated advertisements for midwest micro products i was then promptly disconnected apparently it was quiting time and they didn t want to be bothered with callers that had been waiting on the line i called the next day and asked the customer diservice agent for an rma number she promptly switched me to a tech support rep that implied that it was my equipment at fault and that he wasn t going to give me an rma number he suggested i use some nonstandard irq settings a solution i was not happy with the modem should work as originally configured conclusion i m not sure the modem would work ok in a basic system but it clearly does not work in a multi port system like mine since my time is worth more than the aggravation or the cost of the modem i gave it to a local charitable organization with a description of my problem and ordered a practical peripherals mt from pc connection for more i have a solid external modem built by a company i know will support their users and sold by a company based on personal experience will treat me right if there is a problem i should have known better
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re scsi and ide what s the difference in article apr ac dal ca tominatr ac dal ca writes stupid question from a new ibm pc user i m going to be selling my mac and getting a gateway retching noises talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire are scsi drives faster than ide i m pretty sure scsi is faster along with a lot better compatability alex jhereg iastate edu up the universe no damn sig
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re courier vs sportster note followups to comp dcom modems for obvious reasons in article r mb h usenet ins cwru edu da cleveland freenet edu andy nicola writes in a previous article cs sd ae maccs mcmaster ca holly ks says what is the difference between the us robotics courier v bis external and the sportster external i see that the price of a sportster has dramatically dropped to below but the price of the courier remains above anyone with knowledge of both of these modems or anyone that owns a courier the courier is their top of the line product thus the higher price i ve never taken a real look at the sportster line only couriers but from what i ve gathered it s basically more of an entry level modem probably doesn t meet the same specifications that the courier does i m not sure if the sportster line is fully dsp driven like the more recent courier modems are so upgrades in the future may be an issue again take all of the above with a grain of salt i ve never evaluated the sportster so i m going by bits and pieces that i ve heard if you want a real answer post the question in comp dcom modems and you ll find people who have worked with the sportster personally though if i were going to look at the courier modems i d buy the dual standard then i d get both hst and v bis in fact this is exactly what i did i m sitting here looking at my usr ds right now and now to correct a few very incorrect statements folks if you want to get reliable answers to modem and or uart questions post them to comp dcom modems if you post in other groups you never know what you ll get in the way of an answer you may very well get a good answer or you may get something like the one below at least in cdm if someone posts complete and utter bs you ll see a flurry of folks correcting them to avoid spreading faulty info the sportster at has v error control and v bis data compression just as it does at lower speeds too there is absolutely nothing in either ccitt recommendation v or v bis that says that they can only operate on modems that are running v bis v bis of course is currently only standardized for operation on top of v in its primary mode of operation lapm but that s about as far as that goes and just in case there s some confusion on this v v bis are also supported by the courier line unless you have a really ancient one the difference with the courier is that it can run at and only in the hst mode take a second look at the original question in a previous article cs sd ae maccs mcmaster ca holly ks says what is the difference between the us robotics courier v bis external see the v bis up there the question was not about the courier hst modem or about the courier dual standard it was about the courier v bis modem the modem in question does not support hst period it therefore does not support the kb hst also not all courier hst courier dual standard modems support the kb version of hst my dual standard only supports hst at kb there are even older models that only run hst at kb this is a proprietary mode of usr and it will only connect to another of the same type unit to achieve this speed hst is usr s proprietary modulation scheme but we re not talking about hst we re talking about v bis v bis is most definitely not a proprietary modulation scheme the sportster will do asynchronous transmissions as well as synchronous the hst is one way only i do hope you didn t mean for these two sentences to be related in some way first off v and v bis are both synchronous and asynchronous this is part of the ccitt recommendation i e part of the standard it isn t a feature unique to the sportster i just looked at the appropriate chapter in the courier ds manual second hst is not one way only more correctly put it is an asymmetrical modulation scheme meaning it doesn t work at the same speed in both directions hst operates at in one direction and has a low speed back channel in the other direction the high speed channel goes in the direction of the higher data flow this is fine if you re logged on to say a bbs and type one letter and get screens of info back transfer files not using bimodem etc there is of course a penalty for turnaround time when the high speed channel needs to reverse directions v and v bis are both symmetrical meaning they do transfer the full data rate in both directions at the same time third synchronous vs asynchronous has absolutely nothing to do with symmetrical vs asymmetrical they are two completely different topics the hst s will be upgradeable to the v fast spec when it is available again more correctly put some of the courier line will be upgradeable to whatever v fast is called when it s complete if you have the large footprint courier modems like i do you re s o l there was an upgrade plan a while back to upgrade to a small footprint variety which could eventually be upgraded to support v fast but the cost of the two upgrades together pretty much put it higher than just buying a new modem later jim include std disclaimer h de n ial internet jim n ial mythical com j graham ieee org icbm n w amateur radio n ial w zbb ft walton beach fl amtor selcal nial e mail me for information about kamterm host mode for kantronics tncs
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re modems and uarts in article apr ncsu edu rjbaucom eos ncsu edu ryan jeffrey baucom writes i have a couple of questions what is a uart and so on see my response in comp dcom modems all of your answers are there btw next time if you must cross post into other groups cross post instead of posting multiple copies that way only one copy of your article must be transmitted by the network and only one copy is stored on people s disks except in the case of brain damaged news software jim include std disclaimer h de n ial internet jim n ial mythical com j graham ieee org icbm n w amateur radio n ial w zbb ft walton beach fl amtor selcal nial e mail me for information about kamterm host mode for kantronics tncs
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re how is a loopback connector made skcgoh tartarus uwa edu au shaw goh writes uwovax uwo ca wrote i need to know the pins to connect to make a loopback connector for a serial port so i can build one the loopback connector is used to test the serial port thanks for any help steve me too skcgoh tartarus uwa edu au in a pin serial loopback plug you need to connect the following pins pin to pin pin to pin pins and together pins and together pins and together pin to pin that should do it note that a lot of these pins are redundant in many implementations phil phil burg computer unit csiro division of entomology australia life a sexually transmitted disease with a mortality rate
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re diamond stealth help article is last newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware from redmond cs cmu edu redmond english subject diamond stealth help date wed apr hello i have a diamond stealth vram card the older version with the dip switches on the back i have two problems i ve lost the manual i have it in a machine with a network card and everything works fine until i run windows when the network connection dies in case it s important the network card is an smc arcnet bit compatable card it s i o address is e and it s ram base address is d it s also using irq shown press space for more q to quit or h for help i believe there is a file on the diamond bboard that explains how to sort this out but with no manual i don t know the bboard number if you can please help me with as many of the following as possible a send me the diamond bbs number b e mail or post the dip switch settings for the card or fax them to me at c tell me what i m doing wrong so i can magicly get everything working any help at all would be much appreciated thanks in advance red end of file press return to quit date thu apr to redmond cs cmu edu subject re diamond stealth help diamond bbs baud baud voice fax sam press return to continue gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re any info on cyrix dru chip it seems that there are a lot of questions regarding the cyrix compatible dlc and dru my info comes directly from cyrix s fast fax service and also from installing one of these chips in an ibm model the dlc is a instruction set compatible cpu which fits into a dx socket pin grid array or pga the dlc currently is available in speeds the the and the they do not have a coprocessor on board but any software query will return coproc as present i guess they emulate the coproc instructions math functions are on the dx level without the actual coprocessor the internal cache on the dlc is k cyrix literature claims a hit rate my informal tests show that the cache accounts for a performance boost when it is enabled by software overall performance boost from a dx to a dlc is about the benchmarks i used were nu si and qaplus dhrystones and whetstones the performance with the cache enabled is about on a par with my dx with k external cpu cache which is around the performance for a sx the computer runs noticebly faster and dos with dblspace is not complaining the company claims os compatibility but i didn t test it the dru is not a chip as commonly thought the dru is actually a small daughterboard slightly larger than the dx which contains the logic to manage the clock doubler this board plugs into the dx pga and the dlc or plugs into this board i guess the board doubles the frequency apparent to the cpu and insert wait states when access to the rest of the system is required there are no info available from cyrix there anyway the dru is available for dx and dx only double these clock rates and you get the mhz and the mhz dlcs if cyrix is planning to do the same thing for the dru then they need to put out the mhz dlc first i also tested a dlc motherboard along with a cyrix coprocessor with k external cache performance were about faster than the but still significantly slower than an actual intel dx imho the dlc is a great low price upgrade for people who can t afford or can t install a new motherboard it is definitely worth what i paid for it but if you need dx performance the dlc won t cut it i m not sure about the dlc but i think even if it matches the performance it won t beat it in any significant way the last time i posted info about the dlc people sent quite a bit of mail asking where i got it so here is where i got mine treasure chest peripherals they advertise in the computer shopper the dlc kit was but i liked the chip so much that i found the supplier and became a dealer if you are interested in the chip e mail me and i can fax or mail you more info i m well aware of the net s policy against commercial use so i can t post anymore info here however if there are more questions regarding the dlc itself i ll post what i can jamesc if someone asks if you are a god you say yes
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re how hot should the cpu be article is last newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware from scholten epg nist gov robert scholten subject re how hot should the cpu be date wed apr the temp on my dx is over c measured with a k type thermocouple and fluke dig thermometer this is an idle temp not doing lots of bus i o not doing floating point not doing bit protected mode etc this is in a micron computer without heatsink i recently put a heatsink fan on the chip but i might take the fan off it makes a horrible whine at times and i wonder what the vibration is doing to the pins on the cpu etc rob scholten scholten epg nist gov end of file press return to quit rob don t worry about the whine of the fan it will go away in about weeks of use mine did as to the vibration well that something i thought about to as i have a tower case and the mb is mounted vertically so i mounted the fan on the case so that it just blows air at the cpu and its heatsink instead work just like a charm but the realy biggy to think about is after the whine goes away on the fan if the fan should stop burn out how would you ever know this before the cpu goes up in smoke thats what you should be thinking about i have the parts together but have not had the time to assemble them as yet but you build a thermistor controlled circuit that will turn on a pesso speaker and a led when the temp goes above the normal operating range c or there abouts cheep to do if you use radio shack junk under think about that one for a while sam gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	q pc ip mit how to get info and how to install netters i have seen some postings on pc ip from mit this package out of should be a full tcp ip fro the dos machines is there anyone out there that s using it i want to connect a dos machine to my os machine tell me what the dos machine should run sample config and autoexec would be great and where i can find a nfs client i understand that a telnet and a ftp client are part of the package i ve got the crynwr package drivers but that s it please point me to a good source of information if you cannot help me yourself regards jv name j v meuldijk o o address gildelaar hw teteringen fax holland e mail volkert kub nl oooo oooo
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re upgrading the processor on machines boy am i glad that i didn t start out with one of thos ps computers i started the upgrade operation out by spending for a amd dxl forex upgradable mother board from midwest micro when it was time to upgrade i bought a intel dx cpu for and was finished i still don t see why they ever made the cpu at all its to fast for both isa and lb and vesa boards some test results taken on my mb and dx cpu and some others x tal upgrades specs turbo mode tests with fan heatsink kit isa bus x tal mhz cpu mhz cpu speed mhz fpo mhz video chr ms and mhz amd mhz dx mhz dx mhz dx mhz dx mhz dx mhz with all tests the dx ran ice cold not even up to room temp did it go dx dx cpu isa bus x tal mhz bus speed mhz speedstar x video card amd dxl mhz inoperative amd dxl mhz chr ms amd dxl mhz chr ms amd dxl mhz chr ms amd dxl mhz not tested dx mhz chr ms dx mhz not tested dx mhz not tested dx mhz not tested dx mhz not tested dx mhz chr ms dx mhz chr ms dx mhz not tested dx mhz not tested dx mhz not tested dx mhz not tested dx mhz chr ms dx mhz not tested dx mhz not tested dx mhz not tested dx mhz chr ms dx mhz chr ms gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help led connectors for motherboard i bought a dx motherboard for no documentation at all everything appears to work except i m having trouble getting a few of the led connectors working i ve looked at the manuals for other motherboards but the pin configuration doesn t look anything like what is on this board does this pin arrangement look familiar to anyone out there any hints on where i can find this information speaker keylock j the board came with a jumper vertically across these two pins i can get the power keylock to work across pins reset across pins and but would prefer not to blow something up by further experimentation the date on the board itself is opti chips i would really appreciate any help and thank you in advance n a stassen lantz
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re diamond stealth help in article r ep e usenet ins cwru edu ab cleveland freenet edu sam latonia writes article is last newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware from redmond cs cmu edu redmond english subject diamond stealth help date wed apr hello i have a diamond stealth vram card the older version with the dip switches on the back i have two problems i ve lost the manual i have it in a machine with a network card and everything works fine until i run windows when the network connection dies in case it s important the network card is an smc arcnet bit compatable card it s i o address is e and it s ram base address is d it s also using irq remainder deleted i don t have my copy of the manual with me right now but i can offer the following in the interim the card uses port addresses x e and x e which are not configurable these addresses incidentally were inadvertantly omitted from my version of the manual i believe there is a dip that controls whether or not to enable irq for cga or ega support lance hartmann lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com yes that is a percent sign in my network address all statements comments opinions etc herein reflect those of the author and shall not be misconstrued as those of ibm or anyone else for that matter
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	vcpi memory standard i just read an article in another group that mentions this i have never heard of the vcpi memory standard can someone explain what this is thanks greg cisko
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re consumer warning midwest micro ohio i must say that i have been a customer of midwest micro for over years now and have been well taken care of on each purchase i have had many friends that have bought that same modem and they do have some experience with setting up modems so there have been no problems in of them that i know of the fact that your time to valuable for you to spend on the modem is where you went wrong why you say because i must tell you of the yes i say ppi modems that i have had in the past that i was trying to use on my bbs they all were junk and were replace times each to ther point that i just said forget it and i wanted my money back ppi s teck even said that they didn t even repair them that they just strip the parts that are good and junk thr rest of the modem i think it was more your fault than midwest mirco s faulkt sam gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re no bit box on gateway dir in article apr hpcvca cv hp com scott hpcvccl cv hp com scott linn writes while playing around with my gateway local bus machine last night it became apparent that windows didn t give the option for bit access for virtual memory i am using a permanent swap file and the disk drive is on the local bus interface is this expected or should i be investigating further why no bit option appears thanks for any help scott linn scott hpcvccl cv hp com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re date is stuck directory pd msdos sysutl filename type length date description clkdev zip b keep dos time in synch with battery clock chip an index of all files in the wsmr simtel army mil ms dos collection is available in two formats directory pd msdos filedocs filename type description simibm zip b comma delim list of all msdos files w descrip simlist zip b text format list of all msdos files w descrip these files are updated every days see aaaread me in that directory for details simtel allows only nine anonymous ftp logins during weekday prime time am to pm mountain time gmt but otherwise simtel files are also available by anonymous ftp from mirror sites oak oakland edu wuarchive wustl edu archive orst edu ftp uu net nic funet fi src doc ic ac uk nic switch ch archie au nctuccca edu tw by e mail through the bitnet earn file servers or by uucp from uunet s got srcs see uunet file uunet info archive help for details oak oakland edu is the primary mirror site for wsmr simtel army mil all other mirrors except wuarchive and all listserv and trickle servers get their simtel files from oak instead of simtel because it is much faster and allows more simultaneous ftp connections oak is always in sync with simtel because i maintain it in addition to my duties at simtel i run oak s mirror program whenever new files are added at simtel msdos ann tacom emh army mil is a one way moderated mailing list which is used by the internet ms dos archive managers to announce new additions to their collections the announcements posted to this mailing list are also posted to usenet newsgroup comp archives msdos announce if your host has usenet news please do not subscribe to msdos ann to add yourself to the mailing list send e mail to listserv tacom emh army mil with this command in the body of the message subscribe msdos ann to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from such as a local redistribution list then add that address to the subscribe command for example to subscribe local msdos ann subscribe local msdos ann your domain net msdos ann please do not include a signature because it may confuse the server send mail with the word help in the body of the message to get a complete list of commands and their syntax if you later change your mind and wish to unsubscribe send e mail from the same address where you were when you subscribed send to listserv tacom emh army mil with this command in the body of the message unsubscribe msdos ann this server is only for mailing lists and information files it will not send program files keith keith petersen maintainer of the ms dos archive at wsmr simtel army mil internet w sdz tacom emh army mil or w sdz vela acs oakland edu uucp uunet umich vela w sdz bitnet w sdz oakland
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re consumer warning midwest micro ohio i ran out of time on my last reply to this string and i don t know if it was sent or not but i have never heard of anyone that had to return something in the grace peried that had a problem at all with midwest micro they may of thought that you didn t know what you were doing and suggested how to correct the problem but it sounded as you didn t give them much of a chance to correct things at all the fact that the ppi worked okay for you is because it is setup more for the no nothing user that can t understand the instruction and the commands to configure it to his her system when you find out things like the fact the the ec led that looks like you have connected to another ec modem doesn t realy say that but that it only tells you that you have ec turned on on your modem i think that these led are nothing more that just light to hype up the product just like i bet someone took home a few extra in the last year for giving the ppi modems the pc magazine award of the year not so for the stash of them that i saw on my test bench i could go on for hours at no end as to all of the problems that i found with the ppi modems but i will try to control myself i will not even go into the weeks it took ppi to credit my card back for the modems after they had received them back no i will not go into that one nor will i go into talking to the parent co co from hayes i ll just say i hope you like your new modem and maybe someone that can understand how to setup a modem will get the one that you sent back maybe a good friend of mine i hope gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	needed videotaped pc output i m in need of a videotaped copy of a pc pd program please let me know if you can do this marc dna ucs usl edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help eisa board configuration problems i just bought a new amiecu eisa motherboard and an adaptec a fast scsi controller i wanted to install the aha a and did as written in the amiecu manual but the cfg utility told me to get a newer version of the adaptec configuration overlay file named adp ovr because the old one is not compatible to my motherboard the adaptec driver utility is version can you help me please do so name frederic tschannen adress university of fribourg iiuf misericorde ch fribourg switzerland e mail tschannen cfruni bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	info on i o port h requested all during my attempts to find out how the at harddisk controller works i stumbled across i o port h the normal controller ports are in the f h f h range so what does this port do the only information i have upto now about this port is that it is a write only port and the information you have to write in it is related to the number of heads on the disks could somebody shed some light on this and give me the missing info thanks engelbert torremans at t ns nl huizen the netherlands email etorrem cbnewsj att com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re can t set com in article c rajn cbnewsh cb att com k bnc cbnewsh cb att com john a siegel writes i have been unable to get com to work diagnostic programs such as msd show nothing installed i think the software options are ok is there a known hardware conflict and or workaround for this problemand cd rom system is a g k dx tower with ati video card it s the video card it s a compatible which means it uses the same i o addresses as com jh john hood cthulhu just imagine it jhood smoke marlboro vt us
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors nanao hello i ve been following discussions on monitors in comp sys ibm pc hardware and noted that the nanao seems to get very good reviews i m interested in getting more information about nanao s products as well as some others that may fit the bill i would like a monitor that can handle high resolutions like x ni i m envisioning using this monitor on an amiga or amiga w a graphics board like the retina and or on a sun like the sparcstation lx basically i want a high resolution versital monitor this monitor need not be large if it meets the brief requirements as outlined above i ve been very happy with a on suns and could probably cope with smaller at home i m interested if anyone has more details on high quality sony and hitatchi monitors since they seem to be used on sun s fairly often and look pretty good to me at least i haven t seem them brought up in c s i p h very often as are mag and viewsonic ok stuff i d like to find out how can i get ahold of nanao what are the products in their line what are the technical specs esp what scan freq and max resolutions can they handle what s list and street cost if avail from a third party and where can i get ahold of them same info for sony and hitatchi thank you very much john navitsky johnn eskimo com exercise a right today
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	h e l p how can i get my com port working hello for months i ve unsuccessfully attempted to get either a rd or th serial port working on my system various systems diagnostics e g msd norton tell me it s there but anything i hook up to it can t use it i have two serial ports on the motherboard if i set my internal fax modem for com the utility programs report a com i ve checked to make sure all the irqs and addresses are correctly as listed in most manuals set am i missing something very basic where should i go from here any help even a point in the right direction would be most appreciated david besonen davidb student umass edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re unix and dos talking on qic tapes kdq quest uucp kevin d quitt writes i have a system with a scsi drive i want to get a qic tape unit to attach to it and then run software that will read and maybe even write unix tar tapes or at least just read a stream and dump it to file i ll take it from there why is this impossible it isn t use tar on the un x box and gtak zip on the dos box needs aspi driver ralf ralf g r bergs aachen university of technology ee comp eng student snail h uckeswagener str d w gummersbach fed rep of germany phone answ mach note new zip as of july st email rabe pool informatik rwth aachen de
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re soundblaster irq and port settings in article pdb kilimanjaro jpl nasa gov pdb ipl jpl nasa gov paul bartholomew writes when two or more devices in an isa bus pc share an interrupt it s because they re implemented by a single card interesting would you care to explain to me then how my soundblaster pro card and my printer card are sharing irq successfully i assure you that they are both set to irq and that i have no problem my computer is a dtk ibm clone paul bartholomew pdb ipl jpl nasa gov you can configure devices for the same irq as long as you don t use them simultaneously under dos at least both lpt and sb just sit there until you tell them to do something you can t configure a soundblaster for irq if you got an ethernet card which hits that irq a thousand times or so per second markus
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cpu temperature vs cpu activity lino montuno montuno physics su oz au wrote this may be a very naive question but is there any basis for the claim that a cpu will get hotter when a computationally intensive job is running my friend claims that there will be little difference in the temperature of an idle cpu and a cpu running a computationally intensive job lino montuno i totally agree with your friend since when the cpu is apparently idle it is still in fact churning away millions of instructions per second checking for keyboard input for instance the exception to this is for cpu s used in laptops where the cpu can enter an idle state where it is just preserving its current status but doing absolutely nothing in this case it needs a hardware interrupt to get it going again victor buttigieg e mail victor uk ac man ee comms communications research group university of manchester
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	switch settings for bondwell hi i recently got hold of an old obsolete pc first thing i am trying to do with it is making it work seems the switches in the back have been toggled since last it was used and i do not have the manual can anybody help me to identify this beast and mail me the prober switch settings all i know is that is is a bondwell made in most likely a can be toggled between and mhz and looks like no changes have been made any information would be appreciated terje johansen at trondheim college of engineering norway my conscience once became so bad that it died
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	always in decent i ve got an in working in a wimpy sx presently in a few months i m getting a motherboard and probably a toshiba e cdrom and a sbpro will i need special drivers for getting all this to work do they exist basically is this feasible or should i expect to be getting a newer faster scsi card thanks bryan bryan welch amateur radio n sfg internet europa vnet ibm com best bwelch scf nmsu edu everything will perish save love and music scots gaelic proverb disclaimer it s all opinion everything so there
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	fooling check for existance of keyboard with resistor hi i have the following problem i have to use a computer for special purposes that doesn t have a monitor and keyboard connected no monitor isn t a program but no keyboard i can t disable the keyboard from bios setup in fact there is no setup i spoke to someone who said that he had fooled the bios with simply using a self made connector that connects two pins via a resistor pity pity i lost contact to the person before getting more detail so does anyone of you experts can help thanks for any hints even vague ones thomas thomas s opheys mutter beimer erich robert engel tanja opheys kirk fmi uni passau de schildknecht klausi onkel franz rehlein franz stockbauer weg pichelsteiner walze else kling iffi w passau germany ich liiiiiiebe euch echt
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help adding a scsi drive in article apr oracle us oracle com ebosco us oracle com eric bosco writes i have a sx computer with a mg seagate ide drive and a controler built into the motherboard i want to add a scsi drive a quantum prodrive f mg formatted i have no documentation at all and i need your help as i understand it here is the process of adding such a drive could you please tell me if i m right buy a scsi contoler which one i know adaptec is good but they are kind of expensive are there any good boards in the region i want it to be compatible with os and unix if possible also i have seen on the net that there are scsi and scsi drives is this true does the adapter need to be the same as the drive what type of drive is the quantum i have tried others but i think that the adaptec is best value for money connect the drive to the adapter via a scsi cable and the power cable do i have to worry about the power supply i think i have watts and all i m powering are two floppies and the seagate drive i dont think you can mix the two types of drive unless you have one of the scsi ide cards that is available you will have to turn your ide off setup the bios to recognize the drive as the second drive what type of drive is this i don t have the numbers for this drive instructions for drive type are included with the controller with some it may be a type no matter what the disk is with others it may be a type i had one controller that i had to tell the bios that no hard disk was installed format and create partitions on the drive do i use format or fdisk i think that ide drives can t be low level formatted is it the same with scsi how exactly does fdisk work i have a reduced msdos manual clone obliges and there is no mention of fdisk ideally i would want the drive partitioned in to two partitions d and e how do i do this do not low level format a scsi unless you have the scsi low level format program first use fdisk to set the partitions then use format well that seems to be all is there anythiing i m forgetting any help is really appreciated i m lost eric ebosco us oracle com mark mark uk ac ox physchem
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dont have harddisk type hello a friend a mine has a commodore sx and we ve put in that machine a second harddisk he now has mb but the problem is that the mb harddisk isn t supported in the bios alas there s no user type in the setup at the moment we use it as a mb type but there are getting bad blocks on the harddisk question who knows a solution to this i ve seen a small program for this once in the byte but i haven t been able to find this would speedstor or diskmanager work for this i used these programs quite a lot in the xt days but i don t have these anymore seagate used to ship diskmanager with each drive they sold help will be greatly appreciated ronald schalk r schalk uci kun nl
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	v a what s the difference between a uart and a a uart thanks the loose cogs and sprockets of the mind do hamsters have a natural habitat anymore ie wild hamsters or does their world consists only of a plastic gym that we call their home while they call it hell funny how we like to watch others sweat while our butts take root on the sofa i m don t think hamsters sweat i ll go shave one and get back to you robert bobby yung ry lehigh edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	v fast what s taking so long why is it going to take a year for v fast to become a standard are there technical problems to work out or is it just bureaucratic slowdown thanks the loose cogs and sprockets of the mind do hamsters have a natural habitat anymore ie wild hamsters or does their world consists only of a plastic gym that we call their home while they call it hell funny how we like to watch others sweat while our butts take root on the sofa i m don t think hamsters sweat i ll go shave one and get back to you robert bobby yung ry lehigh edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	teac sd harddisk jumper setting please hi i have bought a new harddisk and want to use it with my old teac sd mb harddisk unfortunataly i do not have any documentation with this harddisk could someone please tell me how i should set the jumpers for master or slave thanks in advance robert tenback rhtenbac cs ruu nl robert tenback rhtenbac cs ruu nl utrecht the netherlands
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	drdos vs msdos i m using drdos with superstor for nearly years now and i m wondering if msdos could keep up with it at last is there anybody who tried out both what about this double disk had lots of problems with sstor too how much memory do you get i ve got k with emm and sstor what about the on line help really great in drdos any help appreciated
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	qic streamer software prolem i m using a qic compatible mb streamer and i really like it but now a terrible typo in an archive description drives me mad ervery time is there any software which can rename or even better delete such archives any help really appreciated
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	pc diy and dx pcs i m interested in building my own pc can anyone recommend a uk available book on the subject and or sources for parts alternatively can anyone recommend a source for a dx mhz pc again uk available i ve just seen in computer weekly that the march price for these has fallen to sterling including os monitor keyboard delivery and vat but i can t find a single advert that would give me a system at that price many thanks for your help
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	trakker backup to those who own cms s trakkers please email me with your thoughts on your machine and specifics such as avg file access etc ben ng beng dorsai dorsai org
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	windows virtual memory i ve got a dx mb and i m using windows sometimes i wondered why windows worked endlessly on my hd when i was doing nothing execpt having lunch or something like that then i turned this virtual memory swapfile off and windows became quite faster but now having less memory free and so i m still wondering why windows is reading everything from virtual memory when the convertional is sufficient any common sense explanation is really appreciated
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	delayed write caches i m using norton cache which is really nice but horrible incompatible some games won t work it my streamer software won t work with it and windows doesn t like it at all but when copying or deleting lots of small files only ncache is really fast you see to write a file the fat must be changed but to write files the fat must be changed only once is there any cache program out there which is smart enough to do the same and good enough to run with all my applications any help is really appreciated
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	don t buy from t c computers i m planning to buy a computer and i like tc s ads can you tell anything about the company and their computers also if anyone has a company they would prefer please let me know yes they are nice ads and even better great prices but this is all on the outside the consumer sees this and orders little do they know they will get poor service very poor when i ordered a mb hard drive from tc about months ago i received it in the mail installed it and discovered it didn t work i sent it back to them and they said they d send me a refund check it took many many many phone calls and hate mail as well as threats of lawsuit to get back my in fact it took two whole months of calling and threatening every time i d call i would be put on the run around until i finally wound up on an answering machine i d leave my name and phone but i didn t even get called back once i am one pissed off t c customer and if you don t want to get ripped off or if you want decent service do not i repeat do not buy from this company the money saved is not worth the ulcers you will get pass this word around to your friends companies like this do not deserve to stay in business so let s not give them out hard earned money discount micro systems powerhouse and gateway all have given me excellent service and speed in the past i highly recommend them to anyone mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s sdnet bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hp lj i fonts i have a friend with an original hp laserjet the nameplate does not specify a number but since the lj ii followed later one assumes that he has a lj i his problem is a tax program which requires a cpi font to print the forms properly this unit came to market in versions the plus version supported dowloadable fonts you can guess which one my friend has the plain not the plus the printer does though have a slot and he has a small selction of cartridges including a cpi but none with a cpi font can anyone suggest a source for a cartridge with a or cpi font alternatively is an upgrade to the plus version available at reasonable cost any suggestions would be welcome thanks winqwk b seattle rain festival jan to dec canada remote systems toronto ontario
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re motherboard advice needed in article r r jethro corp sun com lonewolf muse corp sun com peter pak writes hi does anyone have a source for dx motherboards i ve been calling around the local stores and everyone appears to be only stocking the dx or sx motherboards how difficult is it to modify a dx motherboard to run at mhz is it as simple as replacing the system clock with a slower part thanks peter this is normally the case but make sure you get a board with a plug in oscillator as you will screw up your warranty if you start to solder the board mark mark uk ac ox physchem
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help second hd install in article apr dosgate mike tancsa mike tancsa canrem com writes i am considering adding to my system equipped with a meg maxtor hd a second maxtor meg hd i assume this will not be a problem however i remember reading somewhere that to do this you needed to reformat your original drive is this true if so why my drive is full and i really don t like the idea of to re installing everything from floppy please e mail me or post to the group mike mike tancsa internet mdtancsa watarts uwaterloo ca waterloo ontario mike tancsa canrem com canada rosereader p entered at crs canada remote systems toronto ontario no you do not need to reformat your old hd mark mark uk ac ox physchem
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re wincim at baud in article slc uucp kaw slc uucp ka workman writes i ve had similar problems downloading using wincim i discovered that if i disabled data compression on my modem it works fine what string did you use to do this john h anderson texas instruments inc internet anderson dseg ti com po box ms compuserve plano tx fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	info on the power pc by ibm apple motorola begin repost ibm apple motorola ready to unwrap powerpc processor the wraps will come off the powerpc processor this week as motorola corp ibm and apple computer inc detail the results of their yearlong effort this first in a series of powerpc processors will be a bit processor with a bit memory interface much like intel corp s pentium with the capability of performing as many as three instructions per clock cycle according to sources familiar with the chip motorola is expected to release the chip in volume by year end in two configurations running at and mhz with performance of and specint marks respectively sources said floating point performance for the volt processors will be even better as their specfp performance will be and respectively the a scaled down version of the power chip developed by ibm for its rs workstations will also include a k single buffered cache on the chip with protocols to support motorola s bit multiprocessor bus built in the chip which is being designed initially to support the micro channel architecture is bus independent so vendors could develop powerpc based systems using a number of different architectures including isa eisa or sun microsystems inc s s bus design one source noted according to sources familiar with the development effort motorola has been extremely successful in developing the powerpc as an inexpensive architecture despite a complex design made up of more than million transistors using a micron technology initial chips are expected to be priced from to only slightly higher than intel corp s processors but could be sold profitably for less than one source said end repost
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi david c cat uucp dave write are we talking about a scsi device e g hd on a scsi controller or are we talking about a scsi controller that had a chip upgrade using the same chip that is on a scsi controller board we are talking about a scsi device e g hd on a scsi controller here is a rewrite of my mac info sheet scsi section scsi only external device expansion interface common to both mac and ibm allows the use of any device hard drive printer scanner nubus card expansion mac plus only some monitors and cd rom normal asynchronous scsi is mhz fast synchronous scsi is mhz difference between these modes is mainly in the software drivers main problem there are a lot of external devices which are internal terminated which causes problems for more then two devises off the scsi port a scsi chain is supposed to be terminated only at the begining and end any other set up causes problems for either mac or ibm scsi bit devices per scsi controller asynchronous mb s ave and synchronous mb s max transfers bit scsi is often mistaken for a fast version of scsi see scsi for details scsi fully scsi compliant scsi mode devices per scsi controller bit scsi is implimented as a very fast scsi since it can run using scsi hardware and software drivers which limits it to devices which results in it sometimes being mistakenly consitered part of scsi bit and bit scsi require different ports electronics and scsi software drivers from scsi which makes them more expensive than other scsi interfaces bit scsi seems to run only in synchronous mode hence term wide and fast scsi transfer speeds are mb s with mb s burst bit mb s with mb s burst bit and mb s with mb s burst bit bit scsi is the biggest headache due to the fact that it is the only scsi that i know of that can pump scsi speeds through scsi devices and software controlers its main implimentation is on the mac though you do see adds for scsi at mb s maximum throughput for pcs since bit scsi does not need all the hardware including electonics and software of bit and bit scsi it is the cheepest of the scsi interfaces just pop out the scsi electornics and pop in bit scsi electronics some people consider bit where scsi really starts i used to be one of them but mb s average though put with a theoretical burst of mb s is not scsi but is bit scsi rule of thumb if it is scsin and over mb s then it is some type of scsi bit scsi can use part of scsi electronics which further reduces its cost compared to and bit scsi
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cpu fans in article apr mfltd co uk nmp mfltd co uk nic percival x writes just got a mhz dx system and am considering getting a fan for the cpu the processor when running is too hot to touch so i think this is a fairly good idea long ago when i did some electronics training i read somewhere that the regions within a chip that define junctions gates etc slowly diffuse over time and this increases with temperature hence a hot chip goes off spec sooner has anyone out there got a cpu fan is there more than type do you have to remove the cpu from its scoket to install the fan do all cpu fans derive their power from spare drive power lines anyone had any trouble with cpu fans does anyone have any evidence that cpu fans are a complete waste of money how are these fans attached glue clips melted cheese roughly how much cooler will the cpu be with a fan as opposed to without an advert i ve read claims f vs f any info appreciated nic percival well that was a piece of cake eh k micro focus newbury piece of cake master radial slice of baked ext confection coefficient of relevance to nmp mfltd co uk key to time zero dr who i own a pc fancard ii which is a slightly different beast it s a long card that plugs into an or bit slot and contains two muffin fans it requires no extra cabling i had a that was experiencing some problems due to heat the fancard made the system run cool enough so that the problem no longer appears it s supposed to keep the internal temperature in the range of degrees fahrenheit according to the maker s m s tech advertisements the us army used a bunch of these to keep their pcs running w o a c in desert storm i can t vouch for that however i am a satisfied customer and i have no other connection with the maker or the mail order house lyben hope this helps george george j pandelios internet gjp sei cmu edu software engineering institute usenet sei gjp fifth avenue voice pittsburgh pa fax disclaimer these opinions are my own and do not reflect those of the software engineering institute its sponsors customers clients affiliates or carnegie mellon university in fact any resemblence of these opinions to any individual living or dead fictional or real is purely coincidental so there
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re scsi and ide what s the difference jhereg iastate edu writes in article apr ac dal ca tominatr ac dal ca writes stupid question from a new ibm pc user i m going to be selling my mac and getting a gateway retching noises talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire what cpu does this use i need the info fro my thesis are scsi drives faster than ide i m pretty sure scsi is faster along with a lot better compatability half right scsi is slower than ide mb s vs mb s maximum scsi bit has a faster burst rate than ide quarda scsi and bit are much faster than ide cyclone in june
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors nanao in article c uw t hi eskimo com johnn eskimo com john navitsky writes i would like a monitor that can handle high resolutions like x ni i m envisioning using this monitor on an amiga or amiga w a graphics board like the retina and or on a sun like the sparcstation lx basically i want a high resolution versital monitor this monitor need not be large if it meets the brief requirements as outlined above i ve been very happy with a on suns and could probably cope with smaller at home i m interested if anyone has more details on high quality sony and hitatchi monitors since they seem to be used on sun s fairly often and look pretty good to me at least i haven t seem them brought up in c s i p h very often as are mag and viewsonic give the new viewsonic a good look i have seen it side by side with an old viewsonic a mag a nanao not the trinitron one and a sony oem which does have a trinitron tube the new viewsonic beat all of them easily in terms of picture quality and i think it is far superior to the sun that i am staring at now the place asks for it i would have bought it if i had not just bought a nanao f iw a week earlier keh cheng
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re modems and uarts in article jester gun de michael jester gun de michael gerhards writes universal arithmetic receiver transmitter normally the older boards have a or uart on board those chips generate an irq for every char they received the uart has an internal byte buffer so with the right software installed it generates an irq every chars close universal asynchronous receiver transmitter is it necessary for k or higher throughput if you ran dos you don t need a because dos runs only one task at a time and the whole cpu power could be used for the transfer even if you are running dos if your cpu can t handle the speed of the interrupts you will still lose characters i have one machine with an external bps modem attached and can t drive the serial port any faster than k without losing characters michael michael jester gun de michael gerhards preussenstrasse germany neuss voice rob robert a schrack systems administrator ras ultb rit edu salesbook systems voice tobey village office park pittsford ny fax we wrote the book on sales force automation
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help wanted loading logitech scanman driver in high memory i am having troubleloading my logitech scanman driver latest version into high memory with the devicehigh command in msdos it gives me an invalid parameters message is it necessary to change some of the scanner driver parameters when loading high any help would be appreciated ronel
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	any stb powergraph users out there that know about it help i am trying to view jpg files with my sx mhz machine i have a stb powergraph graphics card with x by colors with meg ram on it i have tried cview with windows extremely slow and dvpeg dvpeg doesn t work even if i pick a lot of the modes that are supported by powergraph so it says in the manual it doesn t work when i try to view a picture it only buzzes anyone out there that can help me give me suggestions i would really appreciate it thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re modems and noisy lines chris crayton chris crayton ozonehole com wrote jcl this garbage my modem doesn t have any of these on hardware can a jcl software implemented protocol do the trick there is a software version of mnp available from mtez and it will often connect with other modems that are mnp compatible but if the modem that you there s also a program called odyssey modem directory on the simtel archives that emulates mnp and others too i think but these were what i was interested in i was getting a lot of garbage when i called one number and mnp cleared it up completely on my ordinary modem fortunately the remote end had an mnp modem i tried mnp too but it seemed to lock up the computer your mileage may vary ed haymore ed byu edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide low level format in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu shenx helium gas uug arizona edu xiangxin shen writes in article c h yl f news cso uiuc edu mandel romulus ehs uiuc edu hector mandel writes i accidentally tried to low level format my western digital caviar drive is there a public domain or shareware utility available that will allow me to fix it thanks i am no expert on this but i am pretty sure there is no way to recover this ide drive has mapping information written directly on drives when you low level format it the information itself is gone as well i don t think you can get it back unless you send it back to western digital and ask them to refurbish it for you jim well i have a different story to recount i attempted to low level format a wd mb disk about a year ago when i understood my error i contacted wd they told me that i hadn t hurt the drive and that i should just run fdisk and format s on it it was fine also i understand that western digital s bbs may have some low level formatting routines specifically available for ide drives you probably need to talk to them and get the straight scoop george george j pandelios internet gjp sei cmu edu software engineering institute usenet sei gjp fifth avenue voice pittsburgh pa fax disclaimer these opinions are my own and do not reflect those of the software engineering institute its sponsors customers clients affiliates or carnegie mellon university in fact any resemblence of these opinions to any individual living or dead fictional or real is purely coincidental so there
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re delayed write caches andreas kuehnel idler cs tu berlin de wrote i m using norton cache which is really nice but horrible incompatible some games won t work it my streamer software won t work with it and windows doesn t like it at all but when copying or deleting lots of small files only that s surprising i haven t seen any incompatibilities with mine version the version that came with my upgrade to had some problems but symantec fixed those and i ve haven t seen anything wrong since i m not running windoze by the way ed haymore ed byu edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help adding a scsi drive can it coexist with an ide in article apr physchem ox ac uk mark physchem ox ac uk mark jackson writes in article apr oracle us oracle com ebosco us oracle com eric bosco writes i have a sx computer with a mg seagate ide drive and a controler built into the motherboard i want to add a scsi drive a quantum prodrive f mg formatted i have no documentation at all and i need your help as i understand it here is the process of adding such a drive could you please tell me if i m right buy a scsi contoler which one i know adaptec is good but they are kind of expensive are there any good boards in the region i want it to be compatible with os and unix if possible also i have seen on the net that there are scsi and scsi drives is this true does the adapter need to be the same as the drive what type of drive is the quantum i have tried others but i think that the adaptec is best value for money connect the drive to the adapter via a scsi cable and the power cable do i have to worry about the power supply i think i have watts and all i m powering are two floppies and the seagate drive i dont think you can mix the two types of drive unless you have one of the scsi ide cards that is available you will have to turn your ide off is this true i was under the impression that people on the net had both scsi and ide working together well that seems to be all is there anythiing i m forgetting any help is really appreciated i m lost eric ebosco us oracle com mark mark uk ac ox physchem
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help ide drive installation problems i m having trouble with installing a second ide drive on a promise ide caching controller the first drive is a conner and works fine the second drive is a conner it is currently unjumpered to be the slave drive the problem is the slave drive is recognized but is reported back as having no free space disabling cache has made no effect what else should i check for krispy
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re v fast what s taking so long in article apr ns cc lehigh edu ry ns cc lehigh edu robert yung writes why is it going to take a year for v fast to become a standard are there technical problems to work out or is it just bureaucratic slowdown thanks don t even get hyped up they are still accepting submissions from the members for various proposals of how to implement the standard you don t seem to realize that while v bis was just an extension of v which took years to pass implement and finally sell at a reasonable price v fast requires all new technology not just faster dsp chips etc to achieve its performance wait until next spring for the final ratification and modems coming shortly after that bing ho bing zinc cchem berkeley edu university of california at berkeley
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	at t dataport k fax modem special for sale at t dataport internal k fax modem the modem is an internal at e isa bit card just a little longer than a half card it has v bis for kbps data bps fax v v bis and mnp for error correction and data compression so you can get error free links up to bps on a conventional phone line they will fall back to any speed down to bps and even disable compression and error correction if necessary in order to connect with slower and older modems it has a buffered uart for better compatibility with multi tasking operating systems windows os unix etc they use a patented technology called optical line interface oli which reduces noise generated by the modem to assure the fastest and cleanest connection possible these modems come with a lifetime warranty and free lifetime tech support and the call is free too from at t they also include the lovely and talented quicklink ii for dos and the new quicklink ii for windows communications and fax software which will let you conveniently sent faxes from any dos or windows application just by printing the windows version will send faxes of any font and can include graphics etc the dos version can fax graphics and a limited set of fonts i believe that there are or so as well as any hp laser ii resident fonts i m asking for this modem plus utah tax this is at or below the prices of any other reputable manufacturer of an equivalent modem including zoom us robotics etc and it is backed by a company that will never go away this price will include delivery if you live within miles of downtown slc i can also arrange shipping or you can stop by my home to pick it up if you re concerned about installing an internal modem let me know and we can discuss an arrangement for including installation if you re interested please let me know this is an excellent modem at an excellent price they normally list for and retail for about i installed one of these last week and it is very nice if you have questions about this at t has an info number at or you can email me and i will attemp to answer them the modem will go to the highest bidder i get within the next week thanks pete
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re atari mono and vga arosborn oregon uoregon edu alan osborn writes in article apr tdb uu se m max tdb uu se max brante w have anybody succeded in converting a atari monomchrome monitor into a mono vga monitor if so please let me know exactly how you did and what graphics card you used i wish i could help i posted a similar question about two weeks ago i got no response at all i ve asked locally at my friendly atari store i was told that it should be possible but that they had no idea how it might be done nor did they particularly care to investigate ok here s my results so far you have to define the monitor as lcd it doesn t really support analogue video input it works but isn t very linear the incoming sync pulses need inverting this is best achieved with either a cmos xor package or a transistor inverter if you don t know how to do it don t even contemplate it it ll only work in standard vga mode ok having said that i m trying to either find a circuit or ic which will act as a universal sync decoder i want somethikng which basically only detects the leading sync pulse edge and doesn t care about the polarity outputting the ve going pulses that the atari monitor requires there are reasons for doing this vga cards change their sync polarity depending which mode they re in herc emulation is while mvga is for example it means i don t have to put a toggle switch on the back of the monitor in order to be able to run it off both the atari and my ibm currently i have yes monitors sitting on my desk and i want to get that number down as much as possible being able to use the atari monitor as a paper white vga will cut things down to if i forget about atari colour i can get down to ultimately the best course of action is to get a multisync monitor but i m as pressed for cash as anyone else so it ll have to wait alan brown dogbowl dogbox acme gen nz
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	trying to find a pc e mail network i am desperately trying to find a pc based e mail wide area network service or the necessary network software to establish one myself while i am aware there are various bbs s and other similar services avalible like compuserve canada remote systems etc i require fairly specific criteria in approximate order of importance they are the mail files news are read written locally and batched to the network server ie no continuous on line connection note all users are remote and will use modems over conventional phone lines simple the users i have for the system have very little computer knowledge have never heard of unix and have very little interest in learning it is essential that the client software is completely pain free cheap we would prefer not paying high connect fees to an established commercial network just so we can send large files between members of the group hence in addition i would like the network server to be something small simple and inexpensive like a there are only about people in the group so it is not a huge network the capability for internet access for news mail internet style id s eg pwood math uwaterloo ca if anyone knows of a system similar to what i am describing even if it doesn t sastisfy all my criteria and i don t care where it is please please e mail me and tell me about it we are not adverse to making alterations to an existing system if necessary thanks peter wood internet id pwood math uwaterloo ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway dx v too high a price i asked for opinions yesterday on gateway machines all the e mail i received indicated that they were solid reliable machines and technical support was very good well gateway faxed me a price sheet just now it seems to be on the higher side but then again maybe not dell s price for a similar price is a whole lot more is this a decent deal please advise via email dx v dx mhz desktop case k sram cache ns mb dram ns simms expandable to mb mb and epson diskette drives mb western digital ide ms mb dtr local bus ide interface ati ultra pro vl bus with mb vram and bit drivers crystalscan fs color monitor phoenix bios clock calendar bit isa slots with bit vesa local bus slots parallel and serial ports intel overdrive ready upgradeable to pentium technology key anykey programmable keyboard dos windows microsoft mouse diagsoft qa plus one of excel ms word paradox project etc all for s h an nec fgx minitor upgrade would cost more please advise thanks vasudev vasudev murthy any opinions expressed are strictly murthy asl dl nec com my own and have nothing to do with advanced switching lab nec america inc walnut hill lane irving tx
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway monitor problem again help once again someone else with a gateway monitor problem anyone who can help please do it would be much apprieciated thanks in advance ok i have a local bus machine with the crystal scan inch monitor i have meg of loca memory on the ati ultra pro w the mach driver the newest release my problem is in windows when i use the mode i get shadows down the sides of the screens and very blurry type in the corners the types on the screen are all out of focus i ve gotten replacement video cards and a replacement monitor none of that has helped though could someone pleae help me with this very frustruating problem thanks again josh smith live now make now always the most precious time reply to now will never come again picard the inner light jlredd bach udel edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help ide drive installation problems in article apr sunova ssc gov qwerty tunisia ssc gov kris schludermann writes i m having trouble with installing a second ide drive on a promise ide caching controller the first drive is a conner and works fine the second drive is a conner it is currently unjumpered to be the slave drive the problem is the slave drive is recognized but is reported back as having no free space disabling cache has made no effect what else should i check for krispy did you make the other drive a master drive did you partition format
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how to add another ide hd with stacker hi can somebody tell me step by step how to add a mb ide kalok hd to an existing mb ide maxtor hd with stacker and dos i know how to set the jumpers on the m to be slave and the settings for heads wpcom sectors etc i also know that i have to do some cmos settings and fdisk the problem is what letter will the cmos give the new drive if it s d what will happen when stacker creates d and swap can i tell cmos to make it e so that if i stack it i will have c d e and f i know this could be an faq or in a readme somewhere but i want to hear from somebody who ve actually done it thanks romy
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	everex cubes has anybody seen empty everex s being sold i want the cube not the computer inards will it take standard at size motherboards thanks e mail please mark ashley disclaimer my opinions not harris marka gcx ssd csd harris com the lost los angelino
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re hint vlb isa eisa motherboard in article c t gs v news iastate edu schauf iastate edu brian j schaufenbuel writes in article id xnfz vj nmti com korenek nmti com gary korenek writes i believe that any vl eisa isa motherboard that uses the hint chipset is limited to bit eisa dma where real eisa dma is bit the hint eisa dma has the mb ram addressing limitation of isa for this reason i would pass i own one of these hawk vl eisa isa and am look ing to replace it for exactly this reason please double check me on this in other words call the motherboard manufacturer and ask them if the motherboard supports true bit eisa dma other than this limitation the motherboard works quite well i am using mine with dos windows and unix s r also with adaptec a eisa scsi host adapter gary korenek korenek nmti com you are correct the motherboard manufacturer where i usually buy boards says that they will have this problem fixed in about two weeks brian j schaufenbuel i don t see this as a problem with the chip set a mistake i see this as something that was designed in intentionally so it would seem that to enhance the design from to bit eisa dma would require an update to the chipset an update to the chipset may begat an update to the motherboard board design what i m saing is the motherboard manufacturer seems to be passing this off as a simple fix in my mind the fix is a updated chipset from hint along with a possible motherboard layout update this is not simple if i were you i would be cautious about this you might look into the advanced integration research air vl eisa motherboard all slots are eisa isa capable or of the slots are vl bus capable the air people confirmed this board supports real bit eisa dma i called them pentium p capable less expensive than equivalent ami or micronics vl eisa board look in computer shopper april the zenon ads show the air mother board a associate bought the air board and is pleased with it i m attempting to get the local dealer to trade out the hawk board for the air board model number of air board with dx is b ei you can call motherboard warehouse for example for a price phone s included below air motherboard warehouse gary korenek korenek nmti com network management technology incorporated sugar land texas
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ll format utilities in maxitor bbs what is the bbs number due to some problems with my ide drive i ll formatted the maxitor at now it started to give me some errors in some applications i was told maxitor has a utility called ide int in their bbs anyone tried it can some one tell me what that bbs number is or better can i find the file in some ftp site or perhaps someone can email it to me thanks feng the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill the campus office for information technology or the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu or
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re v a what s the difference between a uart and a a uart thanks bugs without the a would sometimes get extra characters in the fifo this renders the fifo useless only get the a
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re trident cs drivers for win in apr spartan ac brocku ca tmc spartan ac brocku ca writes you can find the drivers at wuarchive wustl edu in the msdos windows sub directory i think the files are called tvgawin a zip and tvgawin b zip those are the latest drivers available as far as i know i downloaded these files a couple of days ago and they appeared to be incompatible with this particular card none of the svga drivers worked they re probably for the newer and series jm jouni marttila yo kyl b turku finland jmarttila abo fi jmarttila finabo abovax jmarttila jjmartti utu fi pgp key available via finger jmarttila abo fi
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	comparisons dlc amd intel i am thinking about buying a new motherboard and a cyrix dlc or mh z it will be an upgrade from a sx i was wondering if anybody has any facts they can fill me in on if anybody has one what do you think about it i will also get a cyrix math co with it i have benchmarks for the two chips a nd they look very good for the price if anybody responds please send me email because i usually don t check the mail very often but i check my reader daily thanks for your info and remember only respond if you have legitimate comp laints or praise not just to cyrix amd bash i know about what byte computer shopper pc computing and etc have said and that is why i am considering the cyrix chip thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	upgrading an xt hi all netters if i upgrade my xt with a motherboard will i be able to use the old bits and pieces like hd fd graphics card and i o card etc thanks for you info p s i am sorry if my question is on some kind of faq regards desmond li lut uk
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx isa vlb xor dx eisa advice wanted in article apr julian uwo ca rmitch irus rri uwo ca ross mitchell writes i have a choice now between basically the above system but with a dx with isa and vlb or a dx with eisa and no vlb and thus the non local bus version of the ati card which is better keeping in mind that i m primarily interested in the last two tasks the april issue of pc magazine published benchmarks for the ati ultrapro running on both vlb and eisa x x x x eisa vlb
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bios timer interrupts hello i m trying to use the bios timer interrupts which occur every seconds or times a second to time people s response times in a psychology experiment and the response times are on the order of seconds is there any way i can get better precision than by counting ticks or can i make the ticks occur more frequently i m trying to do this in dos on a and it would be nice if this could also work on our old machines running dos i know i know i don t like them any more than you do but this is by no means a requirement just a possibility so basically any information on the bios tick scheme and the related inrterruots would be appreciated as well as any information on alternate ways of improving accuracy email is preferred as i m planning on posting this to a few boards and i don t read all of them thanks joe
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help adding a scsi drive can it coexist with an ide eric bosco ebosco us oracle com wrote first of all please edit your postings wading through lines of quoted crud which people have already read makes people much less likely to help you of course if you don t want to be helped that s your problem is this true i was under the impression that people on the net had both scsi and ide working together no it s not true you can get scsi and ide to work together but there are restrictions at least with the adaptec you must boot from the ide drive there is no way to boot from the scsi drive if you have both ide and scsi drives you must disable the scsi rom bios i m not sure about this though and so you must also use some special drivers to access the scsi drive hmm i know that you have to disable something related to the scsi bios but i m not sure if it is the rom itself back in february someone asked about ide and scsi this question gets asked again and again at the end of this message i ve included an edited copy of my reply you might find it interesting darryl okahata internet darrylo sr hp com disclaimer this message is the author s personal opinion and does not constitute the support opinion or policy of hewlett packard or of the little green men that have been following him all day is it worth it to get scsi over ide will there be a noticable decrease in access time increase in xfer rate for msdos applications isa based scsi and ide controllers generally have comparable throughput you might get slightly higher throughput with a scsi disk but you ll also pay more for the disk and up in some cases you ll also pay much much more for a good scsi controller note that good scsi controllers really show their power if they re used with a good multitasking operating system like a pc unix unfortunately neither msdos nor windows is a good multitasking operating system the performance advantage of scsi controllers is mostly wasted with these which leaves the advantage of being able to connect multiple devices to the scsi bus as the only advantage however note that you can expect to pay a premium for scsi devices if you re only going to be using msdos stick with ide it s cheaper and you ll have less headaches will virtually any scsi device chain into the controller for my hard drive bernoulli box cd rom tape drive etc note the following is true for msdos windows only who knows what the future holds for windows nt and unix no generally you have to find drivers for each scsi device which probably don t exist unless you re using one of the better high performance scsi controllers these are typically bus mastering scsi controllers that cost around street prices and up and drivers that allow you to connect these controllers to popular name brand scsi devices either come with the card or can be purchased for under list price examples of such driver kits are adaptec s ez scsi kit list this works only with adaptec scsi controllers corelscsi from the same people who make coreldraw list this driver kit will supposedly work with any scsi controller card that has an aspi driver like the adaptec central point s pc tools for dos supports a number of scsi tape drives the documentation lists tape drives unfortunately it works only with adaptec controllers are there likely to be other problems incompatibilities with a scsi controller and sound cards video accelerators and similar equipment yes you will run into problems if you re using a high performance bus mastering scsi controller this doesn t sound right doesn t it it s true though with one of these controllers you ll probably have to tweak your system to get it to work with sound cards floppy controller based tape drives like the cms jumbo and windows i know i ve been to h ll and back getting my scsi controller to work with various hardware software thank god for tape backups if you want a copy of my adaptec hints and tips file send email these problems aren t really the fault of the scsi controller card the problems are really with the general hardware and software design of the pc e g no standards however adding a bus mastering scsi card is what brings these problems to the surface and makes them visible scsi holds a lot of promise but you can run into a lot of pc compatibility problems if you re planning on using only msdos windows stick with ide if you want to use windows nt or a pc unix you ll have to make some hard decisions a good scsi controller and more than one scsi hard disk will probably give you excellent performance at the possible cost of msdos compatibility i say probably because while i know this to be true with a pc unix i don t know if this really will be true of windows nt i suspect that it will but i don t know for sure
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	any comments on gateway s nomad i am looking at getting a laptop for work and i was trying to decide between the toshibas and gateway s nomad the price is about the same but the gateway has significantly better performance mb vs mb hard drive mhz dx vs mhz sl and much cheaper accessories extra batteries modem the concern i have about gateway is the durability and reliability does anyone out there have any experience with the gateway nomad thanks denis lambert denisl col hp com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dos dos need new mouse driver i recently installed dos on a few machines and the users claim that when they use the mouse often the screen will blank and the machine will lock up there are no viruses they are not running any tsr s the mouse is a logitec button anybody got any ideas thanks mark mark cs msstate edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re soundblaster irq and port settings pdb ipl jpl nasa gov paul bartholomew writes clip clip interesting would you care to explain to me then how my soundblaster pro card and my printer card are sharing irq successfully i assure you that they are both set to irq and that i have no problem my computer is a dtk ibm clone running ms dos or a derivative os obviously please take note that the following is not what exactly happens but a slightly simplified explanation technically the irq line is only a means for the device printer adapter soundblaster modem hard disk to signal the cpu that something s happening here please take note how the cpu is programmed to handle this signal is usually up to the operating system in ms dos the interrupt vector is used to store the address of the function that handles each interrupt now basic dos doesn t care whether the printer reports that it s ready to print some more stuff or not it simply ignores the interrupt when dos prints it looks at the lpt buffer if there s a character there wait a while and check again if there s not copy a new character to the lpt port since the irq is ignored as a printer interrupt it s free for use for any other adapters in this case the sb with any multitasking or otherwise advanced os this kind of printing approach just doesn t work or more precisely it wastes a lot of cpu cycles hence you can t share the irq with lpt and sb if you re running unix or os or whatnot another issue with the sb is that only the digitized sound uses interrupts when the sb plays plain music the cpu simply tells it what to play until told otherwise with digitized sound the interrupt is required to notify the cpu when the output ends and new data is needed you can however hook two or more com ports to one interrupt but use them only one at a time this is because the interrupt handling routine is same for both ports and it can see from which port the data came from this of course applies for some other devices like lpt as well remember this was greatly simplified in parts but i think gives the general picture correctly enough cheers juha liukkonen aka jliukkon cc helsinki fi university of helsinki dept of lost souls trust me i know what i m doing sledge hammer
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors nanao johnn eskimo com john navitsky writes hello i ve been following discussions on monitors in comp sys ibm pc hardware and noted that the nanao seems to get very good reviews i m interested in getting more information about nanao s products how can i get ahold of nanao nanao call ask for a catalog what s list and street cost if avail from a third party buy a copy of computer shopper and take a look one place with reasonable prices and good service cad warehouse in sububurban cleveland ohio
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	problem with speed my dx has mb of ns ram and a trident svga card sometimes i feel it runs very slowly especially when running windows i m planning to buy an ati graphic ultra next semester is that all i need to get the problem solved is ns ram chips too slow for my machine do faster ram chips make a big difference i use cad software on my computer as well do those up grades good enough to speed it up a lot any one experienced the difference between isa bus and vl bus both with a graphic accelerator a scsi controller may not be appropriate since i may have to replace my hard disks as well however sometimes i do have huge files on my computer does it really worth to use a scsi interface i can t spend too much on it t he any help will be appreciated thanks in advance dennis dpang uafhp uark edu p s man i hate the stupid text editor is there any way i can type my article in a dos word processor and load the file into usenet thanks in advance again
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re consumer warning midwest micro ohio i posted almost the same bad experience with midwest micro but our news program only sent one paragraph out of the middle in addition to the facts that a the modems i had ordered two wouldn t work as documented and b the tech person had no clue as to how it should work it also turned out that c one of the two modems they sent was clearly used but the techs thought that was standard practice and d the modems made all three of my floppy drives quit working and my cms tape drive start running away that they are incompetent is one thing but that they sell used stuff as new and won t even apologize for it is another stay away from these crooks bob wilson wilson math wisc edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re jumper settings for ungermann bass pcnic ethernet card in article apr ntg com dplatt ntg com dave platt writes the irq and interface select jumpers are pretty straightforward but i don t grok the settings of w w also labelled a through a could somebody tell me which settings of these four jumpers correspond to what i o addresses the u b pcnic also oemed by ibm for a while is the only ethernet card i know of that doesn t use i o addresses it only has interrupts and shared memory the jumpers you see control bits in the base address of the shared memory i can t recall which is and which but that s easy to determine with debug james b vanbokkelen high st north andover ma ftp software inc voice fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re consumer warning midwest micro ohio in article c usq mpr wybbs mi org ken wybbs mi org writes i m not sure the modem would work ok in a basic system but it clearly does not work in a multi port system like mine since my time is worth more than the aggravation or the cost of the modem i gave it to a local charitable organization with a description of my problem and ordered a practical peripherals mt from pc connection for more i have a solid external modem built by a company i know will support their users and sold by a company based on personal experience will treat me right if there is a problem i should have known better but but but how does buying an external modem solve the problem of wanting more than serial devices at once and since the pc only supports two why are you blaming a modem vendor for the problem i don t see how your experience could have been different with any internal modem les mikesell les chinet chi il us
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	pinout for standard mono vga monitor the subject line says it all thanks l l max brante m max tdb uu se l l l l l l l l l l institutionen f r teknisk databehandling l l l l l l uppsala universitet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	check switches on ibm xt ok this might seem a bit odd how do check the state of dip switches on the mother board of a ibm xt without using the bios thanx l l max brante m max tdb uu se l l l l l l l l l l institutionen f r teknisk databehandling l l l l l l uppsala universitet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	error beeps on boot i am servicing a machine hp and whenever the thing starts up i get beeps on powerup does anyone know what error message that signifies i don t seem to have any problem with the machine but the lady who is using it is very concerned about it don t you just love hp computers preferr responses by e mail but i read the net so you can post it here andrew acs micro computer network technical support university of maryland baltimore county andrew hotelca tech umbc edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re vlb bus master problem in article rkimball athena rkimball athena qualcomm com robert kimball writes specifically i am interested in the ultrastor f vlb scsi controller before i shell out the bucks for this thing i would like to get the straight scoop from someone who knows does anyone have this controller any problems with it i had one and on three different motherboards it didn t work with nt and in some cases dos i sent mine back but it is my understanding that on some systems such as micronics motherboards it is necessary to shut off the internal cache on the to have it work i ve yet to hear from someone running a f on any motherboard with nt without shutting off the cache if you get one my advise it to be very sure you can return it first ralph
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	atari sell or trade for pc i am considering selling an atari and purchasing an ibm compa tible i need to know what kind of money or trade i can expect to get for the atari before i bother i am about to start graduate school and that means i m about to be poor there s a price list for used synthesizers on rec music makers synth but no equivalent list for computers this system is tailor made for a midi musician details follow atari st tos mb ram k floppy drive supradrive mb external scsi drive months old atari monochrome monitor generic baud external modem software all software is registered and comes with manuals passport s master tracks pro version sequencing software dr t s copyist professional scoring software first word word processor not the pd version megamax s laser c version programming language vip professional spreadsheet package low tech lotus clone partner st desk accessory with integrated calendar cardfile etc migraph s easy draw an early pre postscript release neodesk improved desktop for atari st universal iii improved file selector for atari st miscellaneous software including uniterm communications software i will consider all prices above i am also willing to trade the atari system for a quality or pc including lap tops i own some pc hardware so a complete system may not be necessary john j ladasky ii ii ladasky netcom com great composers do not borrow talking about music is like they steal john ladasky dancing about architecture quote stolen from stravinsky who o o elvis costello laurie stole it from a statement made by anderson frank zappa pablo picasso about painting who stole it from property is theft groucho a man w o charity in his heart what has he to do with music confucius
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	comtrade has anyone had experience buying computers from comtrade when i asked about tc i got one reply describing problems returning a defective hard drive should i expect any problems from comtrade thanks carlisle thacker miami fl
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re motherboard advice needed maybe i should have been clearer i have a intel dx that i would like to use to put together a system however all the motherboards that the local vendors are now selling are running either at or mhz i guess i can cross my fingers and hope the cpu runs at that speed i think i ll take mark s advice and see if any of the boards have a socketed oscillator and head down to the local electronics store thanks for the info b
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	questions on installing pas in gw k dx v i went out and bought the pas yesterday and installed it into my gateway dx v i followed the instructions and set the sb side with dma and irq the default and then the pas side with dma and irq my question is how should i configure for mpu compatibility the manual and installation program recommended irq but on my machine it is configured to cascade to irq so can i still use irq or should i choose a different one right now i have the mpu emulation mode turned off actually what is this cascade to irq business a related questions to other gw or vl bus machine owners i was told that only dma are bit dmas and are bit dmas now what about bit vl bus mastering dmas which dma channel s is used by the vl bus extension to do bit dma yet another question after installing pas my links golf game will hang the machine when i select sb mode and run but works with adlib mode civilization however works fine at least so far any body knows what i might have done wrong thanks i am obviously a newbie john
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cpu fans jim johnson abcd houghton mi us jim johnson writes speaking of cpu fans many use clips make sure you use heat sink grease or heat transfering tape or you will have wasted your money do these cpu fans also have heat sinks do you recommend using both on the same chip i e heat sink sandwiched between cpu and fan if we are just talking about a cpu fan blowing directly on the cpu chip i can t see how heat sink grease is necessary or even desireable edward mcclanahan edm wrs com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	has anyone heard of syntrex a friend recently bought a used the brand is syntrex it didn t come with any documentation and i am trying to find some information about the computer so the question is has anyone heard of it if you know anything about these please drop me a note thank you diana sartorius dsartori u washington edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dx vs dx would someone be willing to explain to me the dx mhz is not more popular than it is i would think it would be just as fast if not faster than the dx mhz for certian applications plus a mhz motherboard would seem better if you had any plans on upgrading the chip in the future i must be missing something since everyone is buying the dx many adds don t even mention the dx thanks a lot matt
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re modem problem no dialtone dudek acsu buffalo edu the cybard writes i have a dx isa pc compatible insight with an infotel internal fax data modem with quicklinkii for windows when i first put the modem in i pulled a phone out of the jack in another room and ran a phone line extension to my surge protector and then my computer the modem worked fine then i split the line from the jack in the other room ran the line into my room into the surge protector and up to my computer then i got a regular phone and plugged that into the phone jack in the modem now when i try to use the modem quicklinkii says no dialtone the phone plugged into the back of the computer works fine i tried unplugging the phone but still no dice is it that the phone line was split too many times i don t understand how this could be a problem since the phone worked fine please note none of the software or hardware parameters were changed only the phone line itself is my new modem faulty what can i do try swapping the phone cables in the back of the modem the golden gryphon gryphon openage com the crown jewel of the american prison system president bill clinton on living in the white house openage the premier sco unix integrator in the washington d c area
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	comments on texel cd rom drive sought anyone have any recommendations warnings about the texel cd rom drive or about any of its competitors i m looking for a cd rom drive for connection to a pas scsi port hal r brand llnl brand addvax llnl gov
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how well do the voicemail modems work hi i ve seen alot of ads for voicemail fax data modems this would be way cool if they work well i don t want to have someone call me and get the connecting sound of a fax machine do they work very well has anyone out there played with one if so please tell me what brand and other info like that thanks kent
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help adding a scsi drive a couple of points in article apr physchem ox ac uk mark physchem ox ac uk mark jackson writes in article apr oracle us oracle com ebosco us oracle com eric bosco writes buy a scsi contoler which one i know adaptec is good but they are kind of expensive are there any good boards in the region i want it to be compatible with os and unix if possible also i have seen on the net that there are scsi and scsi drives is this true does the adapter need to be the same as the drive what type of drive is the quantum i have tried others but i think that the adaptec is best value for money i have an adaptec b and am very happy with it connect the drive to the adapter via a scsi cable and the power cable do i have to worry about the power supply i think i have watts and all i m powering are two floppies and the seagate drive i dont think you can mix the two types of drive unless you have one of the scsi ide cards that is available you will have to turn your ide off not so i have both ide and an adaptec b in the same box and can use both disks at the same time eg ide to scsi disk copy well that seems to be all is there anythiing i m forgetting any help is really appreciated i m lost eric ebosco us oracle com mark mark uk ac ox physchem well one statement and one correction guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help adding a scsi drive can it coexist with an ide in article apr oracle us oracle com ebosco us oracle com eric bosco writes in article apr physchem ox ac uk mark physchem ox ac uk mark jackson writes in article apr oracle us oracle com ebosco us oracle com eric bosco writes i dont think you can mix the two types of drive unless you have one of the scsi ide cards that is available you will have to turn your ide off is this true i was under the impression that people on the net had both scsi and ide working together no i m running both at home ok to the cumpter is turned off right now but i did boot bsd from an ide drive most of the system is on a scsi drive i m using an adaptec b and a no name el cheapo ide card well that seems to be all is there anythiing i m forgetting any help is really appreciated i m lost eric ebosco us oracle com mark mark uk ac ox physchem guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hercules vlb a couple of months ago i tried out a hercules graphite card a pretty nice board fairly fast and seemed quite compatible even seemed to handle the svga modes i have whined about here on occasion at the time i was just buying a vlb system so after checking out the card i sent it back i wanted a vlb card and purchased a fahrenheit vlb card this card is fairly fast will do hz refresh at x but is not compatible with my cd roms the svga thing i think i have merely conjectured that is the cause of an old graphics board being able to run in a higher resolution with those programs than the modern boards i have tried i have not gotten a straight answer out of anybody the monitor i am using it with is a magnavox which also tops out at x x hz so its really a pretty good match but that is for my wife i just purchased a viewsonic for myself and am looking for a graphics card to drive it i want hz refresh and would really like it to handle my cd roms i tried the orchid p which did neither of those things though robert at wietek did say that the hz was possible if i modifed the driver data base so my thoughts go back to hercules they were supposed to be coming out with a vlb version of the graphite around the end of march i have heard precisely zero about it since then does anyone know if the card was actually released and what capabilities and price it has any info would be most appreciated geoff sherwood
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re vlb bus master problem rbrown spchp bbn com ralph brown writes i ve yet to hear from someone running a f on any motherboard with nt without shutting off the cache consider it heard ami enterprise iii eisa vlb w ultrastor f edward mcclanahan edm wrs com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	anybody heard of an asus brand dx motherboard hi all has anyone heard of this board it s a dx if so does anyone know if it will work with bsd or linux a local pc vendor has this he says it s a u s brand please e mail if possible thanks david munoz munoz bcstec ca boeing com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re adding a second ide drive i just bought a western digital caviar mb ide drive and i want to add it to my system which already has a wd ide drive the controller says it supports hard drives but when i plug in the cables do the bios setup and try to start the system it pauses and then i get an invalid drive d error message the system boots but i cannot access the new hard drive there are jumpers on each drive that must be set for both to work the c drivemust be set to be the master drive and d must be set to be the slave drive the actual settings should be in info with the drives or is available from western digital
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway flash bios upgrade in article apr utxvms cc utexas edu dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu daniel m coleman writes gateway has released a new flash bios update for their local bus systems because i m such a nice person i uploaded them to wuarchive wustl edu look for glb exe in the msdos uploads section enjoy i also noticed this was out the readme that comes with it doesn t tell you squat except to warn you that bad things may happen anyone have any idea what these can do for me in terms of say performance tim
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scsi dos adding a rd drive does anyone know if there are any problems or if it s possible adding a third hard drive scsi to a dos pc i currently have a pc with future domain scsi board and maxtor scsi drives installed they work great i haven t had any problems well now i want more disk space and went out and got another larger scsi hard disk thinking all i had to do was add it to the chain pin ribbon that has connectors and run the fdisk program to format initialize the disk that didn t happen when the pc boots the scsi prom shoots back the devices that are attached to the board target target target all three disks are seen when i run the dos fdisk program to format the disk i choose to select another disk option dos and voila it s not there the first two disks show up no problem but the third disk is no where to be found argh ideas anyone thanks in advance mike migkiller figueroa sun microsystems computer corporation e mail maf corp sun com work n x x x x sierra hotel and check six f falcon
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors nanao in article kehchengc w x f o netcom com kehcheng netcom com keh cheng chu writes in article c uw t hi eskimo com johnn eskimo com john navitsky writes i would like a monitor that can handle high resolutions like x ni i want a high resolution versital monitor this monitor need not be large if it meets the brief requirements as outlined above i ve been very happy with a on suns and could probably cope with smaller at home i m interested if anyone has more details on high quality sony and hitatchi monitors since they seem to be used on sun s fairly often and look pretty good to me at least i haven t seem them brought up in c s i p h very often as are mag and viewsonic give the new viewsonic a good look i have seen it side by side with an old viewsonic a mag a nanao not the trinitron one and a sony oem which does have a trinitron tube the new viewsonic beat all of them easily in terms of picture quality and i think it is far superior to the sun that i am staring at now the place asks for it i would have bought it if i had not just bought a nanao f iw a week earlier keh cheng what tube does the viewsonic use does is support x i ve been looking a a philips dt which uses a sony trinitron tube has digital controls supports up to x ni and has mm dot pitch it can be found for under brian schaufenbuel brian j schaufenbuel there is no art which one government sooner learns helser halsted than that of draining money from the pockets of the ames ia people especially college students adam smith
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cardinal vl bus graphics card does anyone have any experience or is familiar with the cardinal p vl bus graphics card would appreciate knowing what you think of its capabilities thanks keith
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ibm colordisplay for pc i have one of these monitors it appears to function ok but is unhookable to anything standard cga ega vga it will plug in but gives fuzzy diagonal noise i also have a graphics board that is apparently a graphic board double card with bit bus connectors and a pin female connector with a picture of monitor i tried plugging these two into a standard at to no avail how can one connect these to the monitor seems to be of relatively high quality so i m curious any special drivers and or setup needed i can t locate any jumpers on the card
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway zeos compare i am think of buying a new computer through the mail order i am looking at the gateway v systen and the zeos s system which is better in terms of value price ungrade service because i am in canada i wonder can i have the same level of service as in the states thank you for any advice thomas
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	magitronic bbs hm i ve found the dtk customer support bbs anyone know if magitronic run one too hands up all those that have possibly useful cards made by either manufacturer and no docs or drivers g please email me directly if you happen to have a number lee lee tosspot sv com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	et linear mode hi i have heard about a linear mode for the et in which the mb video memory in linearly accesibly instead of the usual k pages does anyone know more about this how can i enable it and to what address is the video memory mapped to a mostert stellenbosch rsa mostert cs sun ac za
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway flash bios upgrade daniel m coleman dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu wrote gateway has released a new flash bios update for their local bus systems because i m such a nice person i uploaded them to wuarchive wustl edu look for glb exe in the msdos uploads section enjoy i blindly installed it and i haven t had any problems or noticed any differences yet note that i did not backup my previous bios you can with the tool that they ship rob i live on the edge laddish robert laddish at t hewlett hp packard hp santa rosa ca telnet mail stop usr robl sr hp com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors in article r hvd gazette bcm tmc edu tso cephalo neusc bcm tmc edu dan ts o writes in article c pisw kq cs mcgill ca gerardis cs mcgill ca the gif emporium writes nec fg or now also available the nec fge only difference no accucolor any experiences or opinions from people who have used the nec fg would be appreciated since i want to get one right after my exams are all done ie about a week from now i have a fg and think it is great i haven t seen the nanao s so i can t compare but the fg image is very sharp and the color contrast is extremely good i ve used other trinitron monitors e g a sun ss color monitors which is a trinitron and think the fg is at least as good perhaps brighter and has none of these silly horizontal lines running across btw i could be wrong but i thought that the fge is slower as well as missing accucolor it may not be able to handle x the way the fg can i believe pc mag said fge can t do x cheers dan ts o div neuroscience baylor college of medicine baylor plaza s houston tx tso cephalo neusc bcm tmc edu newsgrazer a nextstep tm news reader posting m uqr p n ve o g t fq c fuo r b w r r wt ua m f l p eqm g c r i r qt dv qt y c r p x m s t qt x u s p x c r qt v x c p x p m qf qb qi qu g r b a g i vqe pq c r d d a m f t n f m g m rye s t c h qo fye c f c yt n m u a x g rd w i s ep b b a g i vqe q w n m w x s fuc vel yc x v r d w n g ql f a a m te m r m w fet z h xn bx d r h w f w m l v a qa fqe h m n d ef f r yc m q cx fyo u tq b i b yy x r n v s r p m yi vys r vt o qe h r h e s cx g h m o qd e p e vea d i f e d v n t r g m vye i vat f r h ym e m r a f ql o f ee m b a f u a e l g o n w i ep b cx d v a m r a f ai fl w e n d v xg s n h m ya r s o e cx v n w v m r p g t h u d ua m v f r s r a f ae o r o g r t es h m ie r ue dj o v n dg f e o ae b fen r vx m n o g n rx x u r o r h uo fet w s w m ec i r a y b fen r vxi a f ai fl ae r i m r a l s a r g v d p b p h s r h r a f m s in vye b o b t s s ql h w i f n l qi f s u m fyi f r w s ep b e o qd e r vyg b m t u vat h ae v vqo v r s e q cx m es ven r t t u n et ua n w f l t r h m yd x q t h w d ae up b c xn h p m i e ee f g a c xg d r q c p p m c n i ep cx d vae s p b e x g up b m n ye o v i yc w m m sdx q cx f y r m o qe v v d i f cx m el w qa f s p up b m w s n s p s t v v p l ryn s ryb vtn uc f d cx h h
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitor with rgb sync to vga yes but what if my monitor only has bnc s on it and is expecting to get a composite sync signal on the green there ought to be a little black box that takes the vga signalling which has horiz vert and composite sync on different pins plus the r g and b pairs and merges the green and composite sync together in the output it s all v analog as far as i know i can build this with op amps but i don t think i can get the shielding done well enough to handle the frequencies involved without lots of shadows and junk on the screen does anyone know of a vga rgb composite sync on green converter paul vixie dec network systems lab palo alto california usa don t be a rebel or a conformist vixie pa dec com decwrl vixie they re the same thing anyway find paul vix com vixie paul your own path and stay on it me
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re how hot should the cpu be kushmer bnlux bnl gov christopher kushmerick writes how hot should the cpu in a dx machine be currently it gets so hot that i can not hold a finger on it for more than s i keep a big fan blowing on it but am considering using a heat sink any advice don t hold your finger on it when cooking with it use a very small pan and be sure to not spill liquids on the components if you do not plan to cook with it there are a number of small cooling fans designed to mount on the chip and plug into your power supply look in consumer shoppers now if only some innovative person could design and produce a heat sink which could be used to keep my coffee warm why i might even buy a pentium
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re date is stuck with your date time problems you might have a problem with the dallas clock chip i m making a possibly bad assumption that your system has a clock chip and that it s the standard dallas clock chip i always look at the battery and the clock chip when such things go wrong at least as the first course of action mel white data services city of garland texas mel white l dragon tworaven lonestar org two ravens bbs asp member bbs fidonet your window to the world mbas listserv tworaven lonestar org
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re hercules vlb in article apr adobe com sherwood adobe com geoffrey sherwood writes that is for my wife i just purchased a viewsonic for myself and am looking for a graphics card to drive it i want hz refresh and would really like it to handle my cd roms i tried the orchid p which did neither of those things though robert at wietek did say that the hz was possible if i modifed the driver data base so my thoughts go back to hercules they were supposed to be coming out with a vlb version of the graphite around the end of march i have heard precisely zero about it since then does anyone know if the card was actually released and what capabilities and price it has hmm your cd rom program must be using some oddball vga modes i think they are trying to get it out by the end of this month when it is released though it ll be in limited quantities i think they have quite a back order right now the megs version will come out a bit later since you have a viewsonic i think it has a khz horizontal frequency right you re gonna love the megs version it can do x x at hz x x at hz x x at hz x x at hz it can also do x x mil and x x bit at hz too bad i don t have such a high bandwidth monitor like yours most of those modes need a khz monitor otherwise you ll have to use a lower refresh rate if you want more info about the coming graphite vl you should go to the ibm hardware section on compuserve ibmhw in the video sig there re several hercules reps there that are very helpful stephen lau elec engineering univ of hawaii don t have my own account until grad school starts autumn death to fm synthesis go gus
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re promise techhnology caching ide controller in article c t q iq dove nist gov livigni bldrdoc gov david livigni writes looking for help in just the right place does anyone have experience with the promise technology caching ide controller dc m i just ordered one with k installed and have a few questions is it easy to use does it need any kind of tsr s or is it completely transparent to the system board so that i won t have to change the bios configuration yes it s easy to use it s just like an ordinary controller you don t have to change the bios config is it transparent to the ide drive will it work with any drive or does it have to be configured explicity for the type of drive installed it s transparent it works with any drive if you change the drive you only need to change the bios config as usual will it work with a dual drive system master and slave yes no problem with it will i need smartdrive or dos buffers that depends you will get a little better performance if you use smartdrive and buffers in addition that s because access to the card through the isa bus is slower than access to system ram i don t use smartdrive myself but i have a few buffers is the promise technology controller a good one any information would be greatly appreciated thanks david livigni livigni bldrdoc gov anything stated here is my opinion only y d rule of the great when people you greatly admire appear to be thinking deep thoughts they probably are thinking about lunch stig
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	phone number for mitsumi i m trying to get in touch with mitsumi anyone have their number frank pikelner technical assistant department of computer science v v york university toronto canada internet frank cs yorku ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ultrastor ultrascsi hi any body has experience with the ultrastor ultrascsi driver package i also need the phone number for ultrastor it s not in the book and i cannot find them in the company listing in computer shopper thanks in advance tony kwong
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	info on motherboard warehouse can anyone share their experiences good or bad with a tempe vendor named motherboard warehouse i m considering purchasing one of their dx boards one of the selling points is their day full money back guarantee thanks in advance dave masten beta lanl gov
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help adding a scsi drive can it coexist with an ide in article apr oracle us oracle com ebosco us oracle com eric bosco writes i dont think you can mix the two types of drive unless you have one of the scsi ide cards that is available you will have to turn your ide off is this true i was under the impression that people on the net had both scsi and ide working together i have had a scsi and ide drive working together for some years now scsi is supposedly pretty transparent to other types of drives esdi rll ide etc but oftentimes you need to get the correct drivers to get it to work with odd environments for information purposes i had st card st n drive and a maxtor a drive with generic ide controller running together i have also had the same scsi setup work in combination with a rll drive the st drive
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help i need a mac se modem port to pc way serial port cable i m trying to connect a mac se modem port to a pc way serial port can someone provide me with a wiring diagram for a null modem lead for this setup please use email since my news feed is a bit quirky thanks in advance sean gordon sean gordon dundee ncr com include stdio h ncr e m ltd long a b c d e f g main for b c tel f b a for d g c c printf d e d a fax e d a for b c d f b a f b d g d g b d b
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cpu fans nmp mfltd co uk nic percival x wrote just got a mhz dx system and am considering getting a fan for the cpu the processor when running is too hot to touch so i think this is a stuff deleted my dx is about a week old and is custom built by me and for me i am using the pc power and cooling cpu cooler this one has precision ball bearings in the motor it has a pretty substantial heat sink so if it happened to fail it would still probably dissipate more heat than the bare chip it attaches with peel off adhesive this is a full size at case so the fan has gravity in its favor i would be a little nervous about finding the fan at the bottom of a tower case if it happened to let go all of the cpu fans that i know of are powered from a drive cable there are other board type fans which are isa boards with a couple of fans mounted on them they are powered by the slot i don t know how effective they are maybe someone else could comment the cpu is cool enough to touch with the pcp c unit pc connection at has them for next day delivery the y cord is if you don t have a spare lead off the power supply pcp c make the best power supplies available imho channel r cambridge ma
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	problems with parallel i o i writing a program that uses the parallel port my problem is that i need to generate an interrupt when the ack line is pulsed i can get this to occur once but am unable to generate succesive interrupts can someone suggest how i may resolve this problem thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	canon canada would someone please leave me the full address for canon in canada thank you via uci v c net amiga uucp apapouts lotds uucp
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	motherboard manufacturer what is this slot for hi i bought on the net here a mini tower dx system it works fine but i have no docs on the motherboard does anyone know who a manufacturer named wpi is that is the only marking on the board that is not related to a chip connector name it says c wpi also this board has a connector at the other end of the motherboard it looks like this batt socket for math coprocessor chip is about here j signs are the isa slots m p jumpers for turbo kb etc are where e marked r s signs are banks of simm sockets these connectors are the mystery connectors what is this connector is this a place to plug an extra memory board in i ve seen thatr mentioned in some motherboard docs some allow an meg card and meg in simms is this what it is for phil phil hunt wherever you go there you are howtek inc internet phil howtek mv com uucp decvax harvard mv howtek phil
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	new windows drivers for cirrus gd graphic cards i have uploaded the most recent windows drivers for the cirrus gd chip based display cards to the uploads directory at ftp cica indiana edu file is dr zip they re very recent i downloaded them from the cirrus bbs last night if you are unable to get them there email me and maybe i can upload them to some other sites as well i have a local bus based card vl bitblaster from micron but i think the drivers work with isa cards or at least includes drivers for them i found the new drivers to be a significant improvement over the version improving my graphic winmarks v by about million to although this could be the result of intentional benchmark cheating on cirrus s part but i don t think so from steve gibson s columnist for info world graphic card comparisons also found at the cica ftp site under the name winadv zip i extracted the following for the sake of comparison wintach winbn word sprsht cad paint overall steve s system vlb ati graphics ultra pro my system sx vlb vl bitblaster its no viper but i think its a hell of a deal at about a third of the cost of the ati card and when compared to the other cards included in gibson s review micron system owner s i would be interested to hear your opinions on the dtc vl local bus disk controller my system came with a maxtor drive mb and at first was only giving me disk winmarks of about kb s i am now at kb s is this about as good as it gets i can t get a norton s sysinfo disk reading because the contoller intercepts the calls at least that was what the program said oliver weatherbee oliver earthview
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	micron computer owners please read i have uploaded the most recent windows drivers for the cirrus gd chip based display cards to the uploads directory at ftp cica indiana edu file is dr zip they re very recent i downloaded them from the cirrus bbs last night if you are unable to get them there email me and maybe i can upload them to some other sites as well i have a local bus based card vl bitblaster from micron but i think the drivers work with isa cards or at least includes drivers for them i found the new drivers to be a significant improvement over the version improving my graphic winmarks v by about million to although this could be the result of intentional benchmark cheating on cirrus s part but i don t think so from steve gibson s columnist for info world graphic card comparisons also found at the cica ftp site under the name winadv zip i extracted the following for the sake of comparison wintach winbn word sprsht cad paint overall steve s system vlb ati graphics ultra pro my system sx vlb vl bitblaster its no viper but i think its a hell of a deal at about a third of the cost of the ati card and when compared to the other cards included in gibson s review micron system owner s i would be interested to hear your opinions on the dtc vl local bus disk controller my system came with a maxtor drive mb and at first was only giving me disk winmarks of about kb s i am now at kb s is this about as good as it gets i can t get a norton s sysinfo disk reading because the contoller intercepts the calls at least that was what the program said oliver weatherbee oliver earthview
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors nanao i use a nanao multisync and switch between a windows x and a sparc display works quite well at these resolutions michael c busby unix system support system engineer sr design environment automation compaq computer corporation internet mcb compaq com p o box m s uunet uunet cpqhou michaelb houston texas usa phone armadillos texas speed bumps views opinions are mine alone
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	com card shows up as com with com s address and irq i have an internal modem that i configure as com with irq but when i insert that card into my dos pc it shows up as com with irq and com s address e when i get into debug and dump the data at it shows the address e as belonging to com even though the modem should be at com now i know the modem is working correctly since i have tested it in a different pc and it shows up correctly as com e irq to make it work in the dos pc i have to configure the modem as com e irq but though i have a comm program that allows that the fax program that came with the modem does not work anyway i would like the computer to display the modem as it is set as com i did run a few diagnostic programs and they did not help at all a few displayed the modem as com and others displayed it as being com i am not using windows this is just a dos problem any help or pointers appreciated for various reasons i must have this modem work at com thus switching com ports is not an answer last time i posted this i did not get any dos specific answer this time i have included all the specific information please help avinash chopde avinash acm org avinash chopde avinash acm org avinash genesis nred ma us
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	new gig scsi rpm drives ratings i ve noticed a recent proliferation of gig scsi drives in particular the fujitsu and the micropolis there is also the maxtor lxt s rpm gig drive they are all quite cheap and have nice year warranties my questions are is there a catch which one is better what type of scsi do these drives use is the service generally better for one of these manufacturers are prices likely to go down soon for any reason thanks michael taylor
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dos in article aa mosque cs huji ac il dny cs huji ac il danny halamish writes well i ve installed dos in three different systems with and without stacker a friend installed it in two other systems both with stacker not a single problem except perhaps some minor bugs with config sys menus he s right ya know i ve helped to install dos on about computers now mine included on one he bought the stacker to doublespace converter and it worked fine rather he sent in the coupon for the converter in other cases i ve run the doublespace installation without a problem when compressing a new drive compressing free space or whatever else seems to work for me ofcourse we did not repeat not run any program called install or setup or a very sophisticated ai auto configuring setup installation program that will think for you and do what you never wanted to do but couldn t stop it from doing well i ran the normal setup thing and it worked fine for whatever that s worth also dblspace is crap it writes about slower than stacker reads about slower and compresses about less all tests were made on the same computer with the same disk no cache and the same big files were used couldn t agree more on my i don t miss the speed it s still faster than a normal disk read would be as for the less compression i ve sacrificed that in favor of the convenience of having the dblspace bin load before anything else with stacker any changes to your config sys or autoexec bat meant rebooting twice so it could update those personally i m waiting for stacker to come out and implement those hooks and stuff plus the defrag that comes with dos is okay but i much prefer compress from pc tools for sheer bells and whistles plus defrag is sooooo sloooow on a dblspace drive but dos is quite good reformat disks i honestly don t understand why you had to do this ditto koberg
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help needed on installing nd ide hd greetings i m a novice in messing comp hardware my original ide hd is a mb western digital which came with the system when i bought it and i just got a mb ide hd maxtor that i wanted to add as a slave drive i did change the jumper settings on a maxtor to configure it as slave drv but i didn t change anything on my m western dig since i didn t have any doc on it and as i predicted it just beeped and gave me an error message about hdd controller so i had to take my m off install my a to be my only hd any help on this matter would be much appreciated before i trashed my mb thankx much handy trisakti uc mizzou missouri edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scsi or ide the bottom line which would you choose and why like lots of people i d really like to increase my data transfer rate from the hard drive right now i have a ms mb ide drive seagate a and a standard ide controller card on my isa i m currently thinking about adding another hd in the mb to mb range and i m thinking hard about buying a scsi drive scsi for the future benefit i believe i m getting something like kb sec transfer right now according to nu how would this number compare if i bought the state of the art scsi card for my isa pc and the state of the art scsi hard drive the best system i could hope for obviously money factors into this choice as well as any other but what would you want to use on your isa system and how much would it cost along those lines what kind of transfer rate could i see with my ide hd s if i were to buy the top of the line ide caching controller for my mb ms hd and how much would it cost thanks for any comments randy
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	floptical drives anyone just curious why floptical drives never seemed to catch on remember those mb disks that look and feel like floppies these drives are scsi devices and can read and write both kb and mb disks sounds to me to be one great product for the pc market are the prices really that unaffordable compared to cd roms which are currently not rewritable i know about the new rewritable cds and expect sony to develop the first mds for the computer my question is why isn t there any substantial interest in developing the flopticals just a thought kin chan sparrow cmu edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help promplem with panasonic kx printer in article apr vill edu vill edu dharmesh chovatia writes i have a panasonic kx just inherited with no documentation which is giving me a problem that i cant resolve is this the kx p you re talking about or is there a kx too i ll assume you just forgot the p the paper out light refuses to go out this light is also the power light on not blinking just means that the power is turned on if you look at the panel it should read power paper out right it starts to blink when ever i turn the power on which beeps don t know why it would do this unless you re out of paper that is it does allow be to go on line with green light lit simultanously the red paper out light also remains lit but is does not blink when you power up the printer assuming it does have paper the red power light which when flashing doubles as paper out should light and a few seconds later the green online light should come on hope this helps jim include std disclaimer h de n ial internet jim n ial mythical com j graham ieee org icbm n w amateur radio n ial w zbb ft walton beach fl amtor selcal nial e mail me for information about kamterm host mode for kantronics tncs
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ez scan ii model i have recently picked up a page scanner by the name of ez scan ii model the software for it was made for per windows x windows and will not work with the newwer windows does any one out there kow were i could find the company that made this beast copyrights say and the name gms a division of dest does anyone know if these companies still exist and if they do do they have an email address or if anyone knows of a freeware shareware programme that is able to access this scanner thanks in advance and please email this group scrolls way too quickly akasacou alfred ccs carleton ca aka alexander kasacous master s of public administration programme carleton university the opinions expressed above are mine like anyone else would admit to them
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted hard drive buy trade mb or more greetings i am looking to upgrade my hard drive to a much bigger one since i find myself kinda cramped on space althuogh i have never filled it i would like the extra comfort of megs or so if anyone would like to sell trade a newish meg or bigger hard drive for straight and with a trade please e mail me back at johng matt ksu ksu edu with an offer i would also sell my hard drive for about if you really want it it s a mb western digital ide other than that i am not sure what the transfer rate is but it is pretty fast faster than my roommates teac drive i have addstor running on it now and have had it for about months i have never had a problem with it and would guarantee it works upon deliveree thanks john p s i would love a maxtor hard drive
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted dx motherboard are there anyone who wants to sell used dx motherboard if you have one please let me know the price and the specification i am also interested in buying trident vga card meg park
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx isa vlb xor dx eisa advice wanted on thu apr gmt glen osterhout glen tegra com wrote in article apr julian uwo ca rmitch irus rri uwo ca ross mitchell writes i have a choice now between basically the above system but with a dx with isa and vlb or a dx with eisa and no vlb and thus the non local bus version of the ati card which is better keeping in mind that i m primarily interested in the last two tasks the april issue of pc magazine published benchmarks for the ati ultrapro running on both vlb and eisa x x x x eisa vlb this a wightened speed avarage for many windows tasks the original poster ross mitchell was primary intersted in manipulating large images which implies moving a lot of data from memory to the card does anyone have the benchmarks on this particular task penio penev x w internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ip numbers on ethernet cards in article apr uvm edu djohnson moose uvm edu writes is it possible through either pin configuration or through software programming to change the ip numbers on an ethernet card the ethernet card doesn t use the ip number bits usually it uses the ethernet address bits usually i have never run across an ethernet controller that cannot be programmed to use an address that is not assigned to it decnet requires this feature however that said there is no reason to ever change the ethernet address they are globally unique the first three bytes being assigned to the manufacturer by the ieee and the last three by the manufacturer russ nelson crynwr com what canst thou say crynwr software crynwr software sells packet driver support grant st voice lpf member ask me about potsdam ny fax the harm software patents do
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what about dell ariel design austin insight royal hd computers ok so i ve heard about comtrade gateway tc and various others what about your impressions dealings with dell ariel design austin insight royal and hd computers responses by e mail are preferred because they reduce usenet bandwidth i will summarize the responses with another posting in a week blake buhlig colorado state university bb longs lance colostate edu electrical computer engineering
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help advic a humble response to a letter by g scott braley written gsb a upgrade would probably cost about about or so gsb coprocessors or accelerator cards would cost at least that much tis true i just saw an add for motherboards for i have seen whole systems complete with case power supply keyboard floppy and mono card monitor going for he was a man all and all i shall not look upon his like again blue wave qwk v the ozone hole bbs a private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics k bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how is a null modem c a humble response to a letter by gordon lang written gl i am interrested in the extrodinarily simple concept of the null gl modem cable actually i have no idea so don t count that last gl statement what i m asking is what pins does it use or what are gl it s specifications i just want to solder one myself instead of gl buying one i don t even know what port is used you may want to save yourself the trouble and go to radio shack they have a null modem adapter which is a pin connector that swaps the necessary pins to allow two machines to communicate these are a lot easier than soldering the connections yourself and usually a bit more reliable p e t a people for the eating of tasty animals blue wave qwk v the ozone hole bbs a private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics k bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re questions on installing pas in gw k dx v on thu apr gmt john ngai ngai nova bellcore com wrote i went out and bought the pas yesterday and installed it into my gateway dx v i followed the instructions and set the sb side with dma and irq what is pas any articles or reviews describing it penio penev x w internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	will my ram work in a i am wanting to upgrade from a sx to a dx and are looking at a cheap quote from someone offering me a dx motherboard with no ram in it i will probably sell my old m board off somewhere now i have meg of ram in my which consists of x module kb simms running at nanoseconds would i encounter problems with the pointed out areas by throwing these from one computer to the other any comments gratefully e mail preferred appreciated brett paterson no i am not dyslexic email s giaec cc monash edu au leongatha victoria australia
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re which high performance vlb video card the max vesa vl video controller cirus logic chipset mb ram bit color x ni does xfree or support this card markfried please post email
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	diamond products boycot diamond video cards stealth viper speedstar etc may have excellent specifications and the windows drivers that come with them might make windows blindingly fast but if you re considering buying a system with a view to using it to run unix linux bsd etc or some other special software there is a good chance that it will not work with the diamond cards this is due to diamond s propriety attitude to it s hardware it s impossible to get free information from them about their chips specifically their dot clocks without paying and signing non disclosure agreements this made it impossible for the free software foundation to provide x windows compatibility with these cards as diamond didn t want to divulge programming neccessities as far as i know only diamond has this propriety on it s info mark
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re diamond products boycot on fri apr gmt markfried fellensiek ins j mdw cc monash edu au wrote if you re considering buying a system with a view to using it to run unix linux bsd etc or some other special software there is a good chance that it will not work with the diamond cards this is due to diamond s propriety attitude to it s hardware it s impossible to get free information from them about their chips specifically their dot clocks without paying and signing non disclosure agreements this made it impossible for the free software foundation to provide x windows compatibility with these cards as diamond didn t want to divulge programming neccessities considering the above and some postings about diamond s bad attitute towars customers i ordered and actixge vlb m card it will arive these days penio penev x w internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re scsi dos adding a rd drive in article r fr d jethro corp sun com maf corp sun com mike figueroa writes does anyone know if there are any problems or if it s possible adding a third hard drive scsi to a dos pc i currently have a pc with future domain scsi board and maxtor scsi drives installed they work great i haven t had any problems well now i want more disk space and went out and got another larger scsi hard disk thinking all i had to do was add it to the chain pin ribbon that has connectors and run the fdisk program to format initialize the disk that didn t happen when the pc boots the scsi prom shoots back the devices that are attached to the board target target target all three disks are seen when i run the dos fdisk program to format the disk i choose to select another disk option dos and voila it s not there the first two disks show up no problem but the third disk is no where to be found argh ideas anyone thanks in advance i have got an adaptec scsi card that comes with its own version of fdisk the problem with dos is that it will only see two hard disks any more need to be done by device drivers mark mark uk ac ox physchem
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re chaining ide drives in article badry cab badry cs ualberta ca badry jason theodore writes hi i am trying to set up a conner and a quantum at drive i have the conner set to the master and the quantum set to the slave doesn t work the other way around i am able to access both drives if i boot from a floppy but the drives will not boot themselves i am running msdos and have the conner partitioned as primary dos and is formatted with system files i have tried all different types of setups and even changed ide controller cards if i boot from a floppy everything works great except the booting part the system doesn t report an error message or anything just hangs there does anyone have any suggestions or has somebody else run into a similar problem i was thinking that i might have to update the bios on one of the drives is this possible any suggestions answers would be greatly appreciated please reply to jason badry badry cs ualberta ca make sure that the hard disk you want to boot from is set as active using the fdisk program that comes with dos mark mark uk ac ox physchem
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway flash bios upgrade in lhdsy lahabra chevron com hwrvo kato lahabra chevron com w r volz writes what do i gain with this new bios it fixed a problem for us of getting divide errors that were caused by the gw bios overwriting some interapplication memory area our problem was with clarion database programs but i also heard that it fixed the same problem with brief pat gleason maybe something good maybe something pgleason ncratl atlantaga ncr com bad i guess we ll never know
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re funet fi on apr gmt perry wswiop win tue nl perry egelmeers said perry nntp posting host wswiop win tue nl perry artieb vnet ibm com writes i saw a posting earlier that refered to funet fi directory pub msdos however when i log on to funet fi i cant even find the pub directory let alone the msdos directory can someone tell me what i m doing wrong perry perhaps you should try nic funet fi instead of funet fi another possibility is that you did not give your email address as password for the anonymous account if you that you see following message you entered an invalid inpropable password and are now accessing restricted subset of files please read readme for more information we have special access features see file readme it was last updated tue apr days ago this can happen if your terminal emulator does not generate the character as you think it is hard to see since passwords are not echoed arto v viitanen internet av cs uta fi university of tampere x s av ou cs o ut admd fumail c fi finland
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	where s the best place to find used pc s usenet or otherwise where is the best place to find classified type ads for used pc s several other computer makes have their own wanted sections on the usenet what about pc s and compatibles where s the cheapest place nationally to buy used pc systems and laptops gene jackatak raider net gene wright jackatak raider net
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway monitor problem again help in c wave asg news udel edu jlredd ravel udel edu joshua smith writes once again someone else with a gateway monitor problem anyone who can help please do it would be much apprieciated thanks in advance ok i have a local bus machine with the crystal scan inch monitor i have meg of loca memory on the ati ultra pro w the mach driver the newest release my problem is in windows when i use the mode i get shadows down the sides of the screens and very blurry type in the corners the types on the screen are all out of focus i ve gotten replacement video cards and a replacement monitor none of that has helped though could someone pleae help me with this very frustruating problem try removing the monitor extension cable reports are that the extension cable is causeing these problems
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway dx v too high a price well gateway faxed me a price sheet just now it seems to be on the higher side but then again maybe not dx mhz mb dram ns simms expandable to mb mb western digital ide ms mb dtr local bus ide interface ati ultra pro vl bus with mb vram and bit drivers crystalscan fs color monitor all for this isn t at all too high of a price keep in mind that you get meg of ram a local bus ide and svga card a mb hd and a monitor the local bus ide and svga really kick butt in windows i have used a couple of machines with vlb in the past and all i can do is praise gateway mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s sdnet bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	motherboard manufacturer does anyone out there have at hand the phone or fax number for tech power who are a pc motherboard manufacturer may be known as tech power enterprises thannks in advance chris e mail chris forker newcastle ac uk dept marine technology voice newcastle university fax newcastle upon tyne
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	phillips monitor conversion hi peeps here s another of those any ideas type queries i ve been given an oldish phillips televideo terminal type thingy without a keyboard but no problem so far when i dismantled it i discovered that it is really just a standard rgb monitor with built in modem rom software etc phillips kindly labelled the circuit board with the rgb inputs so i connected it up as a monitor and he presto it worked sort of the problem is that i have no idea where to connect the sync lines the display rolls continuously but does change modes ok only to cga but useful for my laptop any of you wonderful people any knowledge of phillips monitors i ve tried phillips in the uk and a very helpful guy told me that he has had several enquiries of this sort but phillips computer is now under the auspices of dec at least in the uk dec said sorry phillips don t make it any more what is it anyway a uk support dealer said circuit diagrams sync so any ideas john quote computer scientists are not boring they re wonderful exciting interesting people who just happen to like talking to inanimate objects as if they are human by me
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re modem problem no dialtone dudek acsu buffalo edu the cybard writes worked fine please note none of the software or hardware parameters were changed only the phone line itself is my new modem faulty what can i do david thomas dudek v pwxs ubvms bitnet the cybard i m arguing with the phone company about a similar problem we installed a second phone line in our home for our kids and whenever one of them is on their line the modem returns no dial tone on its line when we pick up the phone and listen we can hear my kids voices bleed through whenever we can hear this the modem won t dial even though the dial tone is loud and clear through the modem speaker i think it s the phone company s problem but they say they can t won t correct the problem i m still working on them reid r buyaky sysop heartland multiline bbs micro resources inc dublin ohio unix systems integrators net rbuyaky mr com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	q internal modems without uart seeing all these questions about uart types their availability and their relative merits wouldn t it be fine if for internal highspeed modems there were a mode of operation bypassing the dull and stupid uart interface and instead accessing directly the relatively large send receive buffers of the modem thus eliminating all problems with interrupt latencies just an idea wolfgang r mueller dvs ze rz uni duesseldorf de computing centre heinrich heine university duesseldorf germany
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re need rules for floppy and twisted cable installation in article apr ncar ucar edu fredrick acd ucar edu timothy fredrick writes i am looking for information on how to install a floppy as drive a a floppy as drive b a twisted cable with the twist between the two floppy connectors and a controller for example should both drives have drive select depends on the fdc but generally no the drive at the end after the twist should be set as drive what about the terminating resistor pack that s in the floppy which connector should go into which drive since you re using the as drive a it should be at the end after the twist with the resistor pack fitted does pin on the connector always correspond with pin on the floppy drive yes stuff deleted hope this helps i had exactly the same problems unfortunately when i changed to different machine the problems started again because of a different fdc seems don t flame me this is mainly guess work from practicle experience that some fdc s do different things with the select john
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how to change the cluster size wondering if somebody could tell me if we can change the cluster size of my ide drive normally i can do it with norton s calibrat on mfm rll drives but dunno if i can on ide too glenn jayaputera
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re scsi vs ide randy msc cornell edu writes do all scsi cards for dos systems require a separate device driver to be loaded into memory for each scsi device hooked up no all that i ve seen have also an on board bios which enables you to use up to hard drives directly under dos drives is a dos limitation and you have the same problem with ide and all other standards for that matter software drivers often allow for better performance though you have to use them if you want to use other devices besides hard disks or have more than disks will this also be true of the bit os s obviously these are not able to use the bit real mode bioses that are written for dos so you need software drivers that s not a big deal as long as the drivers are available because you won t have to fight with any low memory problems either segmented memory helps structure software
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	philips pro cm monitor hi guys does anyone could tell me at which resolution can work this monitor of course it support x but at x and x with a cirrus card it seems to don t work any clues written by max rosa ghost sm dsi unimi it
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re diamond stealth giving winmarks in article netnews upenn edu balog eniac seas upenn edu eric j balog writes when posting winmark results it is a good idea to give the version of winbench that you used to obtain the scores as well as the resolution that you tested and the version of the drivers doesn t anybody actually read the licence agreement of winbench before blindly running it the licence agreement very clearly says that details about hardware configuration driver resolution and other relevant facts must be included when giving winmark results ziff davis wants everybody to do this and that requirement makes sense really plain numbers are useless when resolution driver and machine are unknown pekka taipale hut fi
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors nanao in article c wkx frv news iastate edu schauf iastate edu brian j schaufenbuel writes what tube does the viewsonic use does is support x i ve been looking a a philips dt which uses a sony trinitron tube has digital controls supports up to x ni and has mm dot pitch it can be found for under the original poster john navitsky said that he might use the monitor on a sparcstation lx the lx is able to generate a picture at at hz not officially but i tried to set this resolution and refresh rate and the lx came up with a non syncing screen our tube obviously couldn t handle this speed at hz it worked perfectly when buying a third party monitor that s going to be used on a sparcstation lx you might consider a monitor that s fast enough to do at hz i don t know for sure whether the lx supports this sun certainly won t tell you so you ll have to check adrie koolen adrie ica philips nl philips consumer electronics eindhoven the netherlands
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	l b vs vesa l b and hi folks i have a mhz and now i m buying a new first question which is the best way to share hard disks and printer p s my two pc will be far about meter and i like to use a parallel port or ethernet card and i like to share resource under dos linux os and windows nt which i think to buy dx mzh local bus but i heard that some board coulnd t work properly cause some incompatibilites is that true should a dx mhz a better solution in case i buy local bus it s better to buy an accelerated svga card with a normal local bus ide controller or it is better to buy a local bus svga card non accelerated with a normal ide controller is there any accelerated local bus and possibly true color svga card at which price i need to buy a cd which is the cheapest that is able to read musical photo kodak and computer cd rom i have heard about a sony and a mitsumi which is best and which controller work with its thank to everyone anserw me rosa ghost sm dsi unimi it
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx isa vlb xor dx eisa advice wanted in article apr julian uwo ca rmitch irus rri uwo ca ross mitchell writes i have a choice now between basically the above system but with a dx with isa and vlb or a dx with eisa and no vlb and thus the non local bus version of the ati card which is better keeping in mind that i m primarily interested in the last two tasks micronics ami came out with eisa vlb motherboards byte mag tests indicate that vlb is faster for video but eisa is faster for disk ops so i ll wait for gw k to hopefully start using the micronics board mark ashley disclaimer my opinions not harris marka gcx ssd csd harris com the lost los angelino
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	archive vp and qic hi just a quick question reguarding pc tape backup i own a dos box and have an archive vp interface card connected to a qic tape drive now the simple question is does anybody in netland know were i can get some software for msdos ver to run this setup freeware or shareware preferred thanks in advance darryl sorry for the repost but i m still getting to grips with pnews darryl cross inmos ltd mail uk darryl inmos co uk bristol uk or ukc inmos darryl tel ex us uunet inmos com darryl fax internet darryl inmos com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	using xt pwr spply i am planning on upgrading my old xt compatible system with a new motherboard hard drive and mb floppy i am interested in using my old power supply w to power the new hardware if possible i have been told by the motherboard vendor that i could probably use the supply if it had twelve wires going to the motherboard apparently some xt vintage supplies had only wires the th wire is a v line used to charge the motherboard battery my question is has anybody tried bringing an additional wire out of an wire supply or using an auxiliary power source to charge the motherboard battery i do not wish to buy an entirely new power supply if i can make use of my existing one with simple hacks thank you for any information an email reply to rarbanas rcsuna gmr com would be fine larry arbanas
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help needed for the past week or so i ve been trying to install a qic tape drive and an everex bit full size controller in my dx eisa system with no luck i end up getting an error miscompare during the streaming read part of the test i am pretty certain that the port setting irq dma are set properly since the tape responds properly to all commands rewind retension write and erase i also booted the system clean and still the same proble so i also tend to eliminate any memory conflicts it has been suggested that my bus speed is too fast and that i need to slow it down my system has an ami bios and i don t have the advanced chip setting option that i have seen on other systems so i cant do this am i going to have to accept that this set up won t work or can anyone suggest a work around i will be glad to hear your advice suggestions tony
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re scsi dos adding a rd drive in article apr physchem ox ac uk mark physchem ox ac uk mark jackson writes in article r fr d jethro corp sun com maf corp sun com mike figueroa writes does anyone know if there are any problems or if it s possible adding a third hard drive scsi to a dos pc i currently have a pc with future domain scsi board and maxtor scsi drives installed they work great i haven t had any problems well now i want more disk space and went out and got another larger scsi hard disk thinking all i had to do was add it to the chain pin ribbon that has connectors and run the fdisk program to format initialize the disk that didn t happen when the pc boots the scsi prom shoots back the devices that are attached to the board target target target all three disks are seen when i run the dos fdisk program to format the disk i choose to select another disk option dos and voila it s not there the first two disks show up no problem but the third disk is no where to be found i have got an adaptec scsi card that comes with its own version of fdisk the problem with dos is that it will only see two hard disks any more need to be done by device drivers odd fdisk works fine for me with ide drives and a scsi drive on my ultrastor f only with the device driver loaded though
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	q address for zoom i own a zoom v bis modem and i am having some strange problems i would like to contact the manufacturer but there is no address on the box does any have their address or telephone number thanx don smith don smith djs ultb rit edu djs ritvax bitnet finger djs ultb rit edu for pgp public key
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re courier vs sportster da cleveland freenet edu andy nicola writes in a previous article cs sd ae maccs mcmaster ca holly ks says what is the difference between the us robotics courier v bis external and t sportster external i see that the price of a sportster has dramatical dropped to below but the price of the courier remains above anyone with knowledge of both of these modems or anyone that owns a courier the sportster at has v error control and v bis data compression this is becoming standard on all these high speed modems the difference with the courier is that it can run at and only in the hst mode the courrier will not run at only the dual standard hst the usr modem over my courrier will do up to and with compression error correction much more it will do v v bis v v bis v etc etc and asl too whatever asl is david china cat bbs c cat david sed csc com n uunet mimsy anagld c cat david
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re soundblaster irq and port settings discussing the use of irq in recent article msprague superior mcwbst b mike sprague writes i as a number of poeple in this thread have already written i can t prove it s true but i believe it lpt does not actually use irq even though that interrupt is supposed to be dedicated to lpt to put it a little differently irq is the de facto standard interrupt assigned to be used by the printer adapter to announce its completion of some activity dos doesn t monitor irq it uses other means to determine when it s time to send out another byte to the printer most all hardware printer adapters have the ability to disable the use of irq usually by merely breaking the connection between the isa pin and the associated driver other adapters control the irq line by a tri state driver and by programming just leave it in the high impedence mode unfortunately there are a lot of adapter cards which use bistate drivers i e either assert high or assert low for the irq lines rather than tristate drivers assert high assert low or don t assert anything the presence of such a card on an irq line precludes the use of that irq by any other adapter unless it is physically disconnected by a jumper incidentally note that there s no requirement that a card hold the irq line low when no interrupt is desired if that were true you would have to somehow tie down all unconnected irq lines and that certainly isn t a requirement non dos operating systems os nt various unices or whatever the proper plural of unix might be require the use of irq for performance reasons and the sb alas is one of the cards which uses bistate drivers joe morris mitre jcmorris mitre org
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors nanao there is a good report list on most all of the good monitors in this months issue of computer shoppers magazine with their phone munbers and all april issue sam gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	vlb scsi card suggest gisie wam umd edu satan wrote can someone recommend a decent vesa local bus scsi controller card i saw a post for the ultrastor something or other and was wondering if this would be a good choice i need a supported card that software like the march nt beta will recognize buslogic just announced the bt fast scsi vlb interface as of april this always happens to me i have a one week old bt s which is the isa version i am enjoying spectacular performance with a micropolis mc mb ms hh rpm drive i ll be changing to the bt very soon though it is difficult to imagine even higher transfer speeds with the bit vesa support you can call buslogic and ask em about the nt question i hear that the support is excellent i have not had to call them myself yet regards channel r cambridge ma
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dos in article apr ucsu colorado edu koberg spot colorado edu allen koberg writes in article aa mosque cs huji ac il dny cs huji ac il danny halamish writes also dblspace is crap it writes about slower than stacker reads about slower and compresses about less all tests were made on the same computer with the same disk no cache and the same big files were used couldn t agree more on my i don t miss the speed it s still faster than a normal disk read would be as for the less compression koberg i recall reading a review article in pc computing wherein they reported a reduction in the loading time for lengthy programs using stacker this was not due to the compression algorithm per se but to the fact that fewer fetches were required during the sequential file access does anyone have any actual performance numbers relating to speeds of stacker and dblspace bs
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx vs dx in article z zgc rpi edu arnolm aix rpi edu matthew richard arnold writes would someone be willing to explain to me the dx mhz is not more popular than it is i would think it would be just as fast if not faster than the dx mhz for certian applications plus a mhz motherboard would seem better if you had any plans on upgrading the chip in the future i must be missing something since everyone is buying the dx many adds don t even mention the dx one of the things going for the dx over the is that it s clock speed complies with the vesa local bus spec lance hartmann lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com yes that is a percent sign in my network address all statements comments opinions etc herein reflect those of the author and shall not be misconstrued as those of ibm or anyone else for that matter
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re diamond products boycot in article apr monu cc monash edu au ins j mdw cc monash edu au markfried fellensiek writes diamond video cards stealth viper speedstar etc may have excellent specifications and the windows drivers that come with them might make windows blindingly fast but most fellow diamond video board owners with whom i ve corresponded may or may not share your opinion about the proprietary clocking scheme but all of those with whom i ve chatted have not been thrilled with the window s drivers either some modes work fine but others cause strange misdrawn objects trails etc many have also voiced their strong discontent to diamond s ambivalent attitude toward os drivers come to think of it though i hear and see a lot of complaints about the ati boards too though recent word looks like the build code looks much better does anyone have an accelerated video board with drivers for windows os where all the modes function properly anyone anyone lance hartmann lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com yes that is a percent sign in my network address all statements comments opinions etc herein reflect those of the author and shall not be misconstrued as those of ibm or anyone else for that matter
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re floptical drives anyone kin chan sparrow cmu edu wrote just curious why floptical drives never seemed to catch on remember those mb disks that look and feel like floppies these drives are scsi devices and can read and write both kb and mb disks sounds to me to be one great product for the pc market are the prices really that unaffordable compared to cd roms which are currently not rewritable i know about the new rewritable cds and expect sony to develop the first mds for the computer my question is why isn t there any substantial interest in developing the flopticals certainly in the uk the mb flopticals are about the same price as a cheap cd rom now you seem to be able to get them for around gbp however the bigger optical drives e g mb are much more expensive around the gbp mark a couple of questions that someone may be able to answer the mb flopticals are they direct drop in replacements for a floppy or do they need driver software etc i e do you just rip out the floppy drive plug the same cables into the floptical stick in a flopti disk and hey presto you have a mb floppy this sounds far too easy on the subject of sony developing mds for computers i have reread a pcw article on this subject and there it says that sony have been doing optical drives for other people for some time and may be about to do a product themselves from the article it seems that the audio md format is a byproduct of their computer storage work the md mechanism is identical to their mo computer optical drives a sony spokesman was quoted as saying that a md disk would hold about mb of data though he refused to comment on any possibility of this being productized the article said that one of the problems holding back development in this area was lack of sensible standards plus there are at least distinct optical storage mechanisms around at present given that it probably needs mds being used as a distribution medium to get it into the market and since this has already been cornered by cds it probably needs someone to come in with a very strong marketting lead to get mds accepted david shepherd des inmos co uk tel x inmos ltd aztec west almondsbury bristol bs sq they didn t like the rates they don t like the poll tax and they won t like the council tax nicholas ridley
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cached hardrives after reading many postings concerning hard drives i m still unclear about one thing these new cached hard drives is the cache on the drive itself or is it separate like on the controller or something thanks to anyone who can clear this up tmc tmc spartan ac brocku ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	looking for comments on compaq deskpro s hello if you have any experience knowledge comments advice etc about compaq s eisa deskpro machines please reply preferably via email i m thinking of getting one and am looking for any all user comments thanks ps i m looking at a m
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help led connectors for motherboard article is last newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware from nstassen magnus acs ohio state edu nicki a stassen lantz subject help led connectors for motherboard date thu apr i bought a dx motherboard for no documentation at all everything appears to work except i m having trouble getting a few of the led connectors working i ve looked at the manuals for other motherboards but the pin configuration doesn t look anything like what is on this board does this pin arrangement look familiar to anyone out there any hints on where i can find this information speaker keylock j the board came with a jumper vertically across these two pins i can get the power keylock to work across pins reset across pins and shown press space for more q to quit or h for help but would prefer not to blow something up by further experimentation the date on the board itself is opti chips i would really appreciate any help and thank you in advance n a stassen lantz end of file press return to quit nicji it would realy realy help if you said what chipset and if the board was an upgradable or not board and how old it and the bios is sam gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help ide drive installation problems article is last newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware from qwerty tunisia ssc gov kris schludermann subject help ide drive installation problems date thu apr i m having trouble with installing a second ide drive on a promise ide caching controller the first drive is a conner and works fine the second drive is a conner it is currently unjumpered to be the slave drive the problem is the slave drive is recognized but is reported back as having no free space disabling cache has made no effect what else should i check for krispy end of file press return to quit krispy lets start with what promise controller that you have ther are only about or of them made the one that i have the dc m needs nothing done but install it as stated as to the th hd you do know about running fdisk on it and partisitions and then formatting it after your finished with the fdisk operation right sam gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway zeos compare in article yetti uucp cs cs yorku ca chin h lam writes i am think of buying a new computer through the mail order i am looking at the gateway v systen and the zeos s system which is better in terms of value price ungrade service because i am in canada i wonder can i have the same level of service as in the states i don t know about canada but i have heard from people doing translation work in papua new quinea that they like them and have had good response on service another is seriously considering buying one john h anderson texas instruments inc internet anderson dseg ti com po box ms compuserve plano tx fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway monitor problem again help did you ever notice that of all the problems are from people that run windows thanks ms gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bios passwords i hope that there s somebody out there that can help us some of our students change the ami bios passwords on a few of our computers and set it for always what we d like to know is if there is a way to bypass or remove the password we have tried switching bios but to no avail the battery is soldered to the bord an all three machines is still under guarentee so if that would have help we can t remove the batteries thanks isak isak venter itbijv puknet puk ac za money can t buy happiness but surely pays for the illusion
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re diamond products boycot in article apr monu cc monash edu au ins j mdw cc monash edu au markfried fellensiek writes if you re considering buying a system with a view to using it to run unix linux bsd etc or some other special software there is a good chance that it will not work with the diamond cards that is if the special software is free like xfree there are vendors that sells diamond x drivers for commercial unices but then they charge this is due to diamond s propriety attitude to it s hardware it s impossible to get free information from them about their chips specifically their dot clocks without paying and signing non disclosure agreements i think they only need a signing i e no paying this still violates the fsf s policy of publically available code this made it impossible for the free software foundation to provide x windows compatibility with these cards as diamond didn t want to divulge programming neccessities while this is true there are fixes for those who have already bought diamond cards in linux for example there are utilities that will put the card in vesa mode before invoking x of course this means no fine tuning of diamond cards but at least this will allow those who re stuck with them to use linux x i agree with mark s suggestion if you are buying a video card for specialized free software avoid diamond but if you already have one there may be a fix that can help you james jjctc chevron com the shortest distance between jtsiao netcom com two puns is a straight line ask me about linux the freely distributable unix clone for the
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re consumer warning midwest micro ohio re midwest micro article is last newsgroups comp dcom modems comp sys ibm pc hardware misc consumers from wilson schaefer math wisc edu bob wilson subject re consumer warning midwest micro ohio date thu apr i posted almost the same bad experience with midwest micro but our news program only sent one paragraph out of the middle in addition to the facts that a the modems i had ordered two wouldn t work as documented and b the tech person had no clue as to how it should work it also turned out that c one of the two modems they sent was clearly used but the techs thought that was standard practice and d the modems made all three of my floppy drives quit working and my cms tape drive start running away that they are incompetent is one thing but that they sell used stuff as new and won t even apologize for it is another stay away from these crooks bob wilson shown press space for more q to quit or h for help wilson math wisc edu end of file press return to quit bob i have walked into micro center here in the cleveland area and bought a new track ball and picked the only one that was sealed in plastic rap only to get it home and oped it up to find a good year old used dirty old track ball with a warranty card for some software package i would never even think of installing anything that looked like it was used at all you should of called medwest micro and made them do a pus pull tag on it they would of picked it up and sent you out a ner one the same day things get better in knowing how to but equipment after the first try gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors nanao adrie koolen adrie ica philips nl wrote in article c wkx frv news iastate edu schauf iastate edu brian j schaufenbuel writes what tube does the viewsonic use does is support x i ve been looking a a philips dt which uses a sony trinitron tube has digital controls supports up to x ni and has mm dot pitch it can be found for under the original poster john navitsky said that he might use the monitor on a sparcstation lx the lx is able to generate a picture at at hz not officially but i tried to set this resolution and refresh rate and the lx came up with a non syncing screen our tube obviously couldn t handle this speed at hz it worked perfectly i don t know which tube the viewsonic uses but it has an khz horizontal bandwidth so you can go pretty high i ran mine at x x which was as fast as the orchid p could drive it also the does claim to be able to support x but i have no experience with that since i have the spec sheet in front of me i ll type some in crt mm dot pitch deg deflection rgb mediou short persisance tint tm anti static anti glare anti reflection input signal rgb analog vp p ohms also has setting for vp p sync h v separate ttl composite sync on green horizontal freq khz vertical freq hz compatibility pc from vga to x non interlaced mac iici and above controls contrast brightness position size degauss p p voltage color temp sync select color tuning moire on off video band witdth mhz max brightness cd m at white flat field misconvergence mm max at center mm max at corner dimensions x x weight lbs i don t know what some of those mean and don t verify their accuracy i just typed them in other things they hype on the sheet are a double quaduple dynamic astigmatism focus right they mean they use two lenses advanced invar shadow mask viewmatch color control which they claim is and easy to use system that adjusts colors to closely match printer output as near as i have been able to figure out this translates to separate controls for red green and blue how this makes it easy to match for printer output is beyond me but beyond the hype the monitor is very pleasant to look at sharp clear and isn t nearly as bad as the nec s for reflections geoff sherwood
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re bios passwords some of our students change the ami bios passwords on a few of our computers and set it for always what we d like to know is if there is a way to bypass or remove the password we have tried switching bios but to no avail the battery is soldered to the bord an all three machines is still under guarentee so if that would have help we can t remove the batteries as far as i know there is no way to get around the bios password except by shorting out the power supply to the cmos memory thereby erasing it this will remove the password but it will also destroy all the previous bios settings so then you ll have to go and set them all up again on my there is a jumper on the motherboard which is provided for the purpose of shorting the battery you just short this jumper briefly and it interrupts power to the cmos long enough to erase it i would imagine there is something like this on your board too in the future i would suggest that you set the password and leave it on setup only that way no one else can go and reset it or set it to always unless they know what password you used they had to do this over here too when they got a bunch of new s for just the same reason dale dale m nurden nurden elaine ee und ac za technical co ordinator dept of electronic engineering durban youth radio university of natal durban durban south africa south africa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx vs dx article is last newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware from arnolm aix rpi edu matthew richard arnold subject dx vs dx date wed apr would someone be willing to explain to me the dx mhz is not more popular than it is i would think it would be just as fast if not faster than the dx mhz for certian applications plus a mhz motherboard would seem better if you had any plans on upgrading the chip in the future i must be missing something since everyone is buying the dx many adds don t even mention the dx thanks a lot matt end of file press return to quit yes its realy simple no one makes a mother board that runs the bus at more than mhz sam gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	isa graphic card info source hi that might look like a dull request but i have been following this newgroup for a couple of weeks and it didn t help me make my mind i bought a new machine not long ago after being disconnected from the pc world for a while i have been running on an xt mhz till last january the machine i bought came equipped with a ati vga xl graphic card it gives a very nice picture and the windows drivers are pretty stable the only problem is that it is quite slow i would like to go for a faster card not in the range i saw a lot of comments on many products over the last weeks but didn t get an overall picture clear enough to make a choice my question is could somebody direct me to a source of information which would help me in my quest i would like to get information about the refresh rates the various cards provide quality of windows drivers standard vga performance non windows stuff direct me to a magazine article or something like that i got winvid zip info but it is not enough if you have an isa card you are really satisfied with it let me know if this information is of any use here is my system configuration fujikama mhz isa system contaq motherboard monitor darius non interlaced multisync up to x can reach khz horizontally i would also like to know if it is a standard for video drivers to allow screen dimensioning and screen positioning by writing on the eprom of the graphic card this is the case with my ati card and it is very convenient when changing graphics mode since my monitor is not intelligent enough to record settings merci a l avance for any information you would be kind enough to provide me guy lamouche lamouche ere umontreal ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dos in article apr ucsu colorado edu koberg spot colorado edu allen koberg writes with stacker any changes to your config sys or autoexec bat meant rebooting twice so it could update those this is not necessary all you have to do is modify the config sys on d or the real boot up partition disk then you can manually copy it to c or allow stacker to do it on boot up likewise with the autoexec bat private note to jennifer fakult this post may contain one or more of the following sarcasm cycnicism irony or humor please be aware of this possibility and do not allow yourself to be confused and or thrown for a loop if in doubt assume all of the above the owners of this account do not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability to recognize any of the above read at your own risk jennifer
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	subject re v a in article apr ns cc lehigh edu you write what s the difference between a uart and a a uart thanks the difference is that the got bugs while the a can be used whithout problems even in fast serial communications other sources say that only the afn from nat semi i e not second sources is really ok best wishes oliver
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway monitor problem again help i believe i have the same monitor problem i have a system from micron computers with the mag the same monitor as the gateway and am having the same symptoms what s this with removing the monitor extension cable thanks for any info
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway dx v too high a price then again maybe for the gateway system isn t too cheap i have a system from micron computers meg ram maxtor hd local bus ide meg video card and the same monitor the system with shipping came to i sold the sx chip that came with it and bought a dx total price
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx vs dx in article r s mec usenet ins cwru edu ab cleveland freenet edu sam latonia writes from arnolm aix rpi edu matthew richard arnold subject dx vs dx date wed apr would someone be willing to explain to me the dx mhz is not more popular than it is i would think it would be just as fast if not faster than the dx mhz for certian applications plus a mhz motherboard would seem better if you had any plans on upgrading the chip in the future i must be missing something since everyone is buying the dx many adds don t even mention the dx thanks a lot matt yes its realy simple no one makes a mother board that runs the bus at more than mhz sam this isn t quite true depending on the number of local bus slots and whether or not the device is integrated into the mother board it is possible to run local bus at up to and mhz i ve also spoken to a few people who run standard local bus video cards at mhz without trouble and a couple of people who couldn t get a lb card to work at that speed brian bjoppy ucdavis edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cpu fans in article apr mfltd co uk nmp mfltd co uk writes just got a mhz dx system and am considering getting a fan for the cpu the processor when running is too hot to touch so i think this is a fairly good idea long ago when i did some electronics training i read somewhere that the regions within a chip that define junctions gates etc slowly diffuse over time and this increases with temperature hence a hot chip goes off spec sooner has anyone out there got a cpu fan yes is there more than type yes seen glue on tape on clip on one inch square and larger my favorite is the inch plastic u s toyo fan i use just plopped down on top of the chip during open case service do you have to remove the cpu from its scoket to install the fan depends on the mounting do all cpu fans derive their power from spare drive power lines only if the manufacturer was smart anyone had any trouble with cpu fans only if it goes out got that blanket effect which doesn t help chip life does anyone have any evidence that cpu fans are a complete waste of money longer system life makes good economic sense to me how are these fans attached glue clips melted cheese yes well not the melted cheese roughly how much cooler will the cpu be with a fan as opposed to without lets you touch the surface the rule of thumb for cooling solid state an advert i ve read claims f vs f any info appreciated the attached fans look slick and work well but i m bothered by the potential loss of cooling if the fan goes out at least with the power supply fan you can reach back there every few days and feel the fan blowing i prefer to put a stock fan off the drive brackets or front panel to blow air across the cpu depends a lot on case and board layout though on chip fans from fry s electronics in the sf bay area are about i get the stock power supply fans for about steve
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help how to have a quiet pc the fan in my power supply like most is distractingly loud has anyone found a solution to running a pc with peace and quiet short of buying a notebook pc i don t know what to do oh yeah i did hear about a power supply called a silencer which is supposed to be more quiet has anyone had experience with this i was quoted a price of for a watt silencer i ve even considered stuffing my pc case in one of those acoustic printer enclosures but that wouldn t be the most elegant solution also i m guessing that would also cut the ventilation any other ideas thanks in advance for any suggestions please e mail whatever you post alexander lerman alerman netcom com voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ad lib wav driver i currently have a ad lib card it can play mid files in windows but it cannot play the startup wav files i called microsoft no help i cannot call ad lib since they went belly up does anyone know if there are special drivers that i need for this if so where are they thanx in ad libvance c ommon pchang ic sunysb edu s ense state university of new york stony brook e ngineer
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	notebooks i posted this once but didn t receive any responses i ve been looking for a good notebook for about my two favorites are the zeos freestyle sl and the micro something or other winbook the one with the apple powerbook style trackball and handrest and the slc any suggestions on others i d love to hear from someone who has one of the two mentioned above too thanks in advance jrl james r lendino computer science i phone columbia s e a s internet jrl cunixa cc columbia edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	isa can t use over megs ram o k i am not a computer literate but what can cannot be done with the ram over megs in an isa machine please e mail thanks in advance charley
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	maxtor at jumper settings i need to know the jumper settings for master and or slave operation on a maxtor at mb ide hard disk thanks in advance erik svensson ers skanska se tel skanska data s danderyd sweden fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cpu fans russest ampex com steve russell writes deletions the attached fans look slick and work well but i m bothered by the potential loss of cooling if the fan goes out at least with the power supply fan you can reach back there every few days and feel the fan blowing yes this is a valid concern imho with the directly attached fan units i ve seen it looks like if the fan were to stop the chip cooling would be a good bit worse than no heat sink at all in other words if the fan stops the unit turns into an insulator and the chip might get hot enough to suffer permanent damage not just stop working temporarily i prefer to put a stock fan off the drive brackets or front panel to blow air across the cpu depends a lot on case and board layout though my zeos dx tower case has a passive heat sink on the cpu and it s located so the front fan which sucks air into the case blows right on the heat sink if that fan stops the heat sink is still cooled by convection air flow so should not see too dramatic a temperature rise essentially the arrangement you re talking about and a good idea imho on chip fans from fry s electronics in the sf bay area are about i get the stock power supply fans for about steve al devilbiss al col hp com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bios replacement my pc is a dx isa with ami bios and opti chipset i am thinking of replacing the ami bios chip dated with an up to date one not for any reason just messing around my questions are do i just take out the old one and plug in a new anything else i have to take care of what precautions should i take where can i get the new bios chip compusa mailorder or what i live in orange county california what is the most up to date version very important how much would it be thank you for your help paul
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help com port problems and mouse hello i want to know if a spoilt com port will create problems with mouse my mouse just gets stuck on the screen for a while and i have to press its button to be able to move it around again is there a shareware utility program to diagnose my com ports thanks ming
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re adding a second ide drive in article c r ur d r ulowell ulowell edu mcook cs ulowell edu michael cook writes i just bought a western digital caviar mb ide drive and i want to add it to my system which already has a wd ide drive the controller says it supports hard drives but when i plug in the cables do the bios setup and try to start the system it pauses and then i get an invalid drive d error message the system boots but i cannot access the new hard drive the new drive works fine as drive c if it s all alone but i am not able to get both drives working at the same time any help is appreciated thanks mike you need to run fdisk eric
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help floppy problem my floppy drive stopped recognizing low density k floppies the controller and drive works fine in another system i was told it could be the dma chip the system is a dx using chips technology chip set i m open to all suggestions please send your replies to ken jazz concert net thanks in advance
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	can t set com g ks answer gateway service has confirmed my suspicion echoed by a couple of people who responded to the original request for help the ati vlb video board uses the addresses for com they could suggest no work around i will be returning the df io card they supplied for com even though it could not possibly work for credit against a bus mouse this will free up the com port i need too bad the original salesman who suggested either the df io card or the bus mouse would solve my need for a port didn t know enough about the hardware otherwise i must say that the dx system has worked very well no problems with any other hardware or software john siegel k bnc cbnewsh att com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re diamond products boycot in article c xwri npe austin ibm com lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com writes in article apr monu cc monash edu au ins j mdw cc monash edu au markfried fellensiek writes come to think of it though i hear and see a lot of complaints about the ati boards too though recent word looks like the build code looks much better build still has a number of problems sheared fonts for instance if you have crystal fonts enabled some other problems color darkening and some others i don t use the drivers in any mode other than x x so if there are bugs in the other modes i can t say does anyone have an accelerated video board with drivers for windows os where all the modes function properly anyone anyone to be honest up until now i have only found one bug in the diamond viper drivers and it seems innocuous that is under microsoft word select format border click shading and take a look at the patterns the pattern has been swapped with the and so on the whole list is completely reversed looks right onscreen but take it to another machine i e a gup or ss x machine or print it and iy shows badly keep in mind that i use mainly x x k mode so i can t speak for the others but otherwise these drivers seem pretty solid what s big noisy and has an iq of operation rescue
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re vl bus hdd fdd controller or ide hdd fdd controller in hpsgm sgp hp com taybh hpsgm sgp hp com beng hang tay writes hi i am buying a quantum lps at mb hardisk and is deciding a hdd fdd controller is bit vl bus hdd fdd controller faster than bit ide hdd fdd controller card i hear that the vl bus controller is slower than a ide controller which one is true the vl ide adapter can be much faster then the normal ide it depends on the drive you use and the board you use i am using a noname vl ide i o contr it is tested under coretest with kb s using a cheap seagate and nearly kb s using a wd caviar you have figure out the jumper setting on the controller to get reliable diskaccess fastest setting gets kb s under coretest but does not work reliable you have to shadow the adapter bios to get the fast speed i haven t used a vl ide cache controller yet but it might speed up twice dieter dieter fritzsche dieter dischw toppoint de maehlsweg d kiel germany master of the wom tel voice fax box zyxel v fast waffle fax compuserve
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re comtrade in article apr enh nist gov thacker enh nist gov writes has anyone had experience buying computers from comtrade when i asked about tc i got one reply describing problems returning a defective hard drive should i expect any problems from comtrade thanks carlisle thacker miami fl i purchased one personal computer and three for business from them no problems the only time i called tech support was for a minor question about a video driver and i had no problem getting through all four machines seem to be high quality and well made a dx eisa machine has been our network file server running hrs per day since last summer with no problems i hope this is helpful allen mulvey mulvey blurt oswego edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway monitor problem again help joshua smith jlredd ravel udel edu wrote once again someone else with a gateway monitor problem anyone who can help please do it would be much apprieciated thanks in advance ok i have a local bus machine with the crystal scan inch monitor i have meg of loca memory on the ati ultra pro w the mach driver the newest release my problem is in windows when i use the mode i get shadows down the sides of the screens and very blurry type in the corners the types on the screen are all out of focus i ve gotten replacement video cards and a replacement monitor none of that has helped though could someone pleae help me with this very frustruating problem i have the meg card with the crystal scan inch also i see very faint shadows on the left side of the screen only in x mode but not enough to really bother me the characters on the screen are clear until i turn on the crystal fonts then they become blurry i have a friend who has meg on the video card who has the same shadows but says the crystal fonts are well crystal clear we are both using build of the mach drivers neither of us has a monitor extension cable i tried the build driver and found no difference tim king tcking uswnvg com us west newvector group inc bellevue washington
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ibm link to imagewriter in article uupcb ozonehole com chris crayton ozonehole com chris crayton writes on larry henson had the unmitigated gall to say this lh hello i am trying to hook an apple imagewriter to my ibm clone lh i seem to have a problem configuring my lpt port to accept this how lh can you adjust baud parity etc to fit the system i tried mode but lh it did not work if anyone can help post of e mail thanx lpt ports don t recognize baud parity etc settings you might be tring to connect a serial printer to a parallel port try this attach the serial port of the printer to a serial port on the pc use the mode command to set the com port settings try c mode com n to set the port parameters then use the mode command to redirect the printer port lpt like this c mode lpt com this should work good luck first you need to connect them with a null modem cable atleast thats what i ve heard dave
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re how is a null modem cable kevin kimmell computer science german undergrad ke kimmell vax cns muskingum edu wrote i am interrested in the extrodinarily simple concept of the null modem cable actually i have no idea so don t count that last statement what i m asking is what pins does it use or what are it s specifications i just want to solder one myself instead of buying one i don t even know what port is used db db pin pin name eia ccitt dte dce description fg aa frame ground td ba transmitted data rd bb received data rts ca request to send cts cb clear to send dsr cc data set ready sg ab signal ground dcd cf data carrier detect positive dc test voltage negative dc test voltage qm equalizer mode sdcd scf secondary data carrier detect scts scb secondary clear to send std sba secondary transmitted data tc db transmitter clock srd sbb secondary receiver clock rc dd receiver clock dcr divided clock receiver srts sca secondary request to send dtr cd data terminal ready sq cg signal quality ri ce ring indicator ch data rate selector ci data rate selector tc da transmitted clock from another posting in c s i p h sorry don t know the author connecting devices normally a wire connection is used connect gnd to gnd rxd to txd txd to rxd dtr to dsr dsr to dtr rts to cts cts to rts if a modem is connected add lines for the following ri dcd if software wants it connect dcd to cts and dcd to cts beware while pcs use pin for rxd and pin for txd modems normally have those pins reversed this allows to easily connect pin to pin pin to pin etc if you connect two pcs cross rxd and txd if hardware handshaking is not needed a so called null modem connection can be used connect gnd to gnd rxd to txd txd to rxd additionally connect if software needs it rts to cts dcd rts to cts dcd dtr to dsr dtr to dsr you won t need long wires for these the null modem connection is used to establish an xon xoff transmission between two pcs see software section for details remember the names dtr dsr cts rts refer to the lines as seen from the pc this means that for your data set dtr rts are incoming signals and dsr cts are outputs end michael michael jester gun de michael gerhards preussenstrasse germany neuss voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	low emission monitors who besides nec does anyone else make low radiation emission monitors besides nec how do they compare to necs quality and emission wise tia les les hartzman hartzman kilroy jpl nasa gov jet propulsion laboratory m s oak grove dr pasadena ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re plus hardcard owners help in article r o m c usenet ins cwru edu evw po cwru edu eric v wong writes hi there i have a problem here i ve lost the software drivers and setup programs for my hardcard can someone email me the files or let me know if plus development were they bought out by quantum has a bbs or phone i have a hardcard ii xl the quantum bbs number is good luck les les hartzman hartzman kilroy jpl nasa gov jet propulsion laboratory m s oak grove dr pasadena ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	joystick again my disk that had my joystick code that some of you were kind enough to mail me puked specifically i am looking for c code to read the position of joystick without using int h i e accessing port x x directly i need it in c becaues of memory model considerations i only need to be able to read the x and y position also brian
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cpu fans the attached fans look slick and work well but i m bothered by the potential loss of cooling if the fan goes out at least with the power supply fan you can reach back there every few days and feel the fan blowing yes this is a valid concern imho with the directly attached fan units i ve seen it looks like if the fan were to stop the chip cooling would be a good bit worse than no heat sink at all in other words if the fan stops the unit turns into an insulator and the chip might get hot enough to suffer permanent damage not just stop working temporarily a suggestion slave hook in series a small pilot light off the fan circuit then if the light goes out you know your fan is not working tom
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cpu temperature vs cpu activity organization compact solutions canberra act australia this may be a very naive question but is there any basis for the claim that a cpu will get hotter when a computationally intensive job is running my friend claims that there will be little difference in the temperature of an idle cpu and a cpu running a computationally intensive job from what i ve seen in coursework most cpus never actually idle they will continue to service interrupts etc etc the clock will always be running at n mhz no matter what it s doing i suppose depending on the instruction the cpu may use circuitry which has more transistors than other instructions but if you consider the additional heat generated by only a handful of additional tiny resistors and then spread that heat dissipation over the cpu s packaging the change in temperature to the immediate environment ie the surface of the package will be negligible cheers ben ben j elliston bachelor of engineering computer engineering university of canberra ooo ooo email compsol fir canberra edu au v also ellib cbr cpsg com au uucp uunet munnari sserve adfa oz au compsol root fidonet origin compact solutions canberra act australia
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	disk caching organization compact solutions canberra act australia has anybody every come across a problem whereby a hard disk locks up ie crashes the system when attempting to load disk caching i think the logic board may have been buggered but the drive works perfectly without a disk cache i tried hyperdisk and various versions of smartdrive all to no avail any advice would be much appreciated i need a cached drive but i need the extra space of my second drive just as much thanks cheers ben ben j elliston bachelor of engineering computer engineering university of canberra ooo ooo email compsol fir canberra edu au v also ellib cbr cpsg com au uucp uunet munnari sserve adfa oz au compsol root fidonet origin compact solutions canberra act australia
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	read only harddrive on a few computers which we have here at sheridan college there are files which we would like to make read only i have used the dos attrib command but some people who carry around the attrib program in their pockets have still been able to erase some of the more important files are there any software packages which would make an entire drive read only an example partition the drive into two partitions and have the first drive contain the important files which can be only read and the second drive you could both read and write any and all enquiries or help would be appreciated thanx mark zander sheridanc on ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help bios upgrade on compaq deskpro howdy i recently upgraded the original bios in a compaq deskpro with a phoenix replacement bios in order to support an ide hard drive and a high density floppy i assumed that this would be a plug and play procedure but i have encountered a problem that phoenix and compaq are unwilling to admit responsibilty for and i was wondering if anyone else had seen it everything is hunky dory except the floppy which will read but not write diskettes any write attempt merely corrupts both fats i have tried everything i can think of any takers micah h lax ab freenet carleton ca micah bnr ca on internet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	floppy problems organization compact solutions canberra act australia i have a floppy drive which has developed general failure errors it s a teac mb drive i took it out of the machine and noticed it was very dusty i used a high powered air can to blow all this dust out and it s quite clean now however it didn t help the problem i ve also identified that when the machine boots and the drive seeks for a boot disk the head movement during this process is now approximately half the length of the original time what i mean is the period when the drive light comes on and the heads move from their retracted position out to the track containing the boot sector is there anything more i can do to try and save this drive i d prefer not to shell out for a new one if i can help it thanks cheers ben ben j elliston bachelor of engineering computer engineering university of canberra ooo ooo email compsol fir canberra edu au v also ellib cbr cpsg com au uucp uunet munnari sserve adfa oz au compsol root fidonet origin compact solutions canberra act australia
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	diamond stealth pro mb vram i want to have some info about diamond stealth pro mb vram what graphics modes does it support are hi color modes included to vesa bios for use with dos programs any experiences yet bugs advantages how fast is it under windows and dos price thanks lasse mits mdata fi
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway monitor problem again help i m afriad that s not true the monitor problem seems to occur whenever the mag monitor is put into x mode i m running os at and the same symptoms appear it does not seem like a video card problem as the cirrus logic chip and the ati gup seem to cause these problems two very different cards glenn
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need specs for a western digital ide hd a friend of mine needs spec for a used hard drive he just got it is a western digital ide meg with cylinders and heads we believe the model number is wd a but we can t be sure it is a ms model any info would be appreciated either from somone who knows or maybe western digitals phone number thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re or grayscale displays below is the list of large at least inches diagonal monochrome monitors which computer shopper lists as pc compatible i ve omitted radius because radius states that they no longer support the pc you will notice that nanao is the only one which supports a khz horizontal frequency which is the frequency normally used by vga cards at boot up my guess is that all the other monitors come with their own graphics cards i ve left voice mail with nanao asking them to send me some literature and will report back to the net after i ve studied it the prices given appear to be list prices and have little relationship to reality kenneth almquist cut here cornerstone technology concourse dr san jose ca dualpage diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical dimensions x x inches price compatible with pc ps dualpage diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical dimensions x x inches price compatible with pc ps ikegami electronics u s a inc brook ave maywood nj dm ad diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical price compatible with pc image systems corp k tel hopkins nm or m lmax diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical dimensions x x inches price compatible with pc ps mac m lv max diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical price compatible with pc ps mac m pmax diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical dimensions x x inches price compatible with pc ps mac m pmax diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical dimensions x x inches price compatible with pc ps mac nanao usa corp telo ave torrence ca flexscan diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical dimensions x x inches price compatible with pc ps mac ran ger technologies inc address unknown the genuis model m diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical dimensions x x inches price compatible with pc sampo corp of america p o box atlanta ga imagepro diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical price compatible with pc officepro iie diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical price advertized pg april shopper compatible with pc samsung electronics america inc address unknown you could try samsung information systems inc n st st san joes ca pagemaster mu a am diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical dimensions x x inches price compatible with pc mac sigma designs inc bayside pkwy freemont ca l view diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical dimensions x x inches price compatible with pc ps mac l view multimode diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical dimensions x x inches price compatible with pc ps mac multimode diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical dimensions x x inches price min compatible with pc silverview diagonal inches max resolution x frequencies khz horizontal hz vertical dimensions x x inches price min compatible with pc ps mac
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cpu temperature vs cpu activity in article apr nessie mcc ac uk victor comms ee man ac uk victor buttigieg writes lino montuno montuno physics su oz au wrote this may be a very naive question but is there any basis for the claim that a cpu will get hotter when a computationally intensive job is running i totally agree with your friend since when the cpu is apparently idle it is still in fact churning away millions of instructions per second checking for keyboard input for instance the exception to this is for cpu s used in laptops where the cpu can enter an idle state where it is just preserving its current status but doing absolutely nothing in this case it needs a hardware interrupt to get it going again actually the iapx family has a halt instruction that causes the cpu to cease processing instructions the cpu resumes processing either by being reset or by receiving an external hardware interrupt this is different from the power management facilities victor mentions of course whether an operating system s idle loop uses the halt instruction is another matter entirely kenneth r ballou voice oberon software inc fax one memorial drive cambridge ma internet ballou oberon com the views and opinions expressed above are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re scsi or ide the bottom line in article apr msc cornell edu randy ellingson writes which would you choose and why i have both i have ide only on my dros box and ide and scsi on my unix box ide on the dros box cos it only has a hard disk scsi on my unix box cos it has a scsi hard disk cd rom and tape i bought scsi as it makes adding many devices easier for the price of one irq and dma i have three different types of device connected up faster drives are also available for scsi i have a dec dsp s that realy does have a ms average seek time i e it finds data faster than my ms toshiba drive like lots of people i d really like to increase my data transfer rate from the hard drive right now i have a ms mb ide drive seagate a and a standard ide controller card on my isa i don t think that scsi will increase your data transfer much on an isa bus i m currently thinking about adding another hd in the mb to mb range and i m thinking hard about buying a scsi drive scsi for the future benefit i believe i m getting something like kb sec transfer right now according to nu kb s is pretty good how would this number compare if i bought the state of the art scsi card for my isa pc and the state of the art scsi hard drive the best system i could hope for many state of the art scsi disks use the same mechanicals as many state of the art ide drives only the interface electronis differ look at the mb fijitsu drive for an example obviously money factors into this choice as well as any other but what would you want to use on your isa system and how much would it cost i use an adaptec b on my unix box and no name ide cards on both along those lines what kind of transfer rate could i see with my ide hd s if i were to buy the top of the line ide caching controller for my mb ms hd and how much would it cost caching controller why what does it give you that smartdrive for dos does not about kb extra lower memory that s about it a properly configured main memory cache will produce better results than a caching controller my unix reads reads data from its main memory cache at mb s that s faster than the standards isa bus can ever sustain thanks for any comments randy guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx vs dx in article r s mec usenet ins cwru edu ab cleveland freenet edu sam latonia writes article is last newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware from arnolm aix rpi edu matthew richard arnold subject dx vs dx date wed apr would someone be willing to explain to me the dx mhz is not more popular than it is i would think it would be just as fast if not faster than the dx mhz for certian applications plus a mhz motherboard would seem better if you had any plans on upgrading the chip in the future i must be missing something since everyone is buying the dx many adds don t even mention the dx thanks a lot matt end of file press return to quit yes its realy simple no one makes a mother board that runs the bus at more than mhz sam which bus i think there are several reasons mhz motherboards are harder to get right mhz need a fast l cache ns is a good idea mhz needs to be slowed down to make a compliant vesa bus mhz dx chips are faster for a lot of things with a good fast l cache a dx is going be be faster than a dx what do i have a dx of course gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re isa bus scsi or ide in article apr msc cornell edu randy msc cornell edu randy ellingson writes questions deleted i actually have a pas and could what a waste i guess it would be hook up a scsi hd through it s scsi port which yields an optimum of kb sec actually i have a borrowed ms fujitsu hd hooked up through it now and own the trantor hd drivers for the pas scsi port is this scsi port a scsi port how could i tell is the fujitsu a a scsi are all scsi hd s scsi does any one know what the pas scsi port is i counted the pins on the board displayed in their ad and it only got what happened to the other did they junk a whole bunch of grounds or what thanks for any comments randy guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re courier vs sportster in article apr mcshub dcss mcmaster ca cs sd ae maccs mcmaster ca holly ks writes perhaps this is a silly question but here goes what is the difference between the us robotics courier v bis external and the sportster external i see that the price of a sportster has dramatically dropped to below but the price of the courier remains above anyone with knowledge of both of these modems or anyone that owns a courier i d really appreciate your comments before i decide on which one i buy thanks in advance and thanks again to those that replies to us robotics info wanted kevin hollyk mcmail cis mcmaster ca the courier looks a lot cooler the courier is upgradable to vfast you have to give usr more money for that tho the sportster is able to be modified to be a dual standard if you want to void your warantee and totally piss usr off
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	artec monitor does anyone have a manual for an artec ni monitor i need the specs thanks rob malouf malouf csli stanford edu rob malouf malouf csli stanford edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re will my ram work in a in article apr monu cc monash edu au s giaec cc monash edu au brett paterson writes i am wanting to upgrade from a sx to a dx and are looking at a cheap quote from someone offering me a dx motherboard with no ram in it i will probably sell my old m board off somewhere now i have meg of ram in my which consists of x module kb simms running at nanoseconds would i encounter problems with the pointed out areas by throwing these from one computer to the other there should be no problem with this just remember to get the number of wait states correct any comments gratefully e mail preferred appreciated brett paterson no i am not dyslexic email s giaec cc monash edu au leongatha victoria australia guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re diamond products boycot in article apr sol ctr columbia edu penev rockefeller edu penio penev writes on fri apr gmt markfried fellensiek ins j mdw cc monash edu au wrote if you re considering buying a system with a view to using it to run unix linux bsd etc or some other special software there is a good chance that it will not work with the diamond cards this is due to diamond s propriety attitude to it s hardware it s impossible to get free information from them about their chips specifically their dot clocks without paying and signing non disclosure agreements this made it impossible for the free software foundation to provide x windows compatibility with these cards as diamond didn t want to divulge programming neccessities i don t think the two main free x systems xs and xfree are part of the fsf as such considering the above and some postings about diamond s bad attitute towars customers i ordered and actixge vlb m card it will arive these days does anyone know of an e mail address for diamond to which penio could forward his purchase information penio penev x w internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cached hardrives in article apr spartan ac brocku ca tmc spartan ac brocku ca tim ciceran writes after reading many postings concerning hard drives i m still unclear about one thing these new cached hard drives is the cache on the drive itself or is it separate like on the controller or something thanks to anyone who can clear this up i have two scsi hard drives each has kb of cache there several reasons for this when the drive has read requested data from the disk the scsi bus may be busy this data needs to be stored some where until the bus is free and the data can be transmitted when the drive receives data to be written the data can come down the bus faster than the drive can write it to the disk it needs to be stored somewhere while the disk is writing it out in these situations the memory is being used as a buffer not a cache may be the drive does some read adead caching as well tmc tmc spartan ac brocku ca guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hp laserjet fax opinions needed has anyone tried this hp laserjet fax it receives faxes and prints them on your hp iii also from your word processor you can print straight to the fax has anyone had any problems fonts not working
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re soundblaster irq and port settings in article pdb kilimanjaro jpl nasa gov pdb ipl jpl nasa gov paul bartholomew writes in article shaman wv tek com andrew frip wv tek com andrew klossner wrote these lpt com disk controller are call devices there are devices that requires exclusive interrupt ownership eg disk controller i and keyboard i there are also devices that does not require exclusive ownership ie it will share an interrupt with another device eg lpt no in a standard isa bus the one that almost all non laptop pcs use two separate interface cards cannot share an interrupt this is due to a screwup in the bus design for example if your soundblaster wants to drive interrupt number then it must hold a certain bus wire to or at all times depending on whether or not it wants an interrupt this precludes letting another card assert interrupt number when two or more devices in an isa bus pc share an interrupt it s because they re implemented by a single card interesting would you care to explain to me then how my soundblaster pro card and my printer card are sharing irq successfully i assure you that they are both set to irq and that i have no problem my computer is a dtk ibm clone simple first andrew is correct although i can see where there might be some confusion it is indeed possible to have two cards configured to use the same interrupt they can not share the interrupt in the sense that it is not possible to have both cards active at the same time here is an example for some time i was short of free interrupts i had a tape controller not a floppy tape that needed one of irq irq it s an old tape drive my solution was to use irq also used for com where my modem is i did this because i reasoned i would never be using the modem and the tape simultaneously when kermit runs it installs its own interrupt handler for irq and uses the serial port if the tape drive were to generate an interrupt kermit would not have a clue what to do with for the tape controller and since the tape controller would not be serviced it would most likely hang likewise when the tape backup software runs it installs an interrupt handler for irq that handler won t do anything for the serial port under dos printing is not interrupt driven instead the bios polls the status of the parallel port to determine when another byte may be sent that s why you can have your sound card and lpt both configured to use irq try that on nt and see how far you ll get kenneth r ballou voice oberon software inc fax one memorial drive cambridge ma internet ballou oberon com the views and opinions expressed above are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re need specs for a western digital ide hd the number for western digital is albert dirr internet address dirr tsclion trenton edu tsc student bitnet address dirr tscvm e s major phone x
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	epson action printer new for sale i have two un opened new epson action printers for sale list price at compusa is i m asking shipping for each my friend and i got the printers at a promotional event at one of the compusa stores near our area we didn t need printers so we re selling it specs for printer pin dot matrix printer cps draft cps nlq sheet paper tray does single sheets prints on letterhead small footprint can be used either flat or upright quiet operation can support an optional tractor feeder comes with full year manufacturer s warranty if interested reply to phillyg acs bu edu trades are welcome khoa nguyen
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	quantum lps a hard disk phantom seeks quantum lps a hard disk phantom seeks i just purchased and installed a mb quantum hard drive model lps a and have a concern about its behavior although the disk drive itself seems to behave properly with respect to file i o it performs what i call phantom seeks when the pc is absolutely idle i can hear a spurt of activity in the drive every seconds lasting seconds this activity seems to be initiated strictly within the drive itself since the disk led never comes on the disk led is attached to the disk controller card not the drive my other hard disk a seagate st a does not have this kind behavior can anyone comment on this strange phenomenon steve harrold swh cup hp com hpg
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	modem i have a ibm clone with two serial ports com com and mouse port both the serial ports are directly sitting on the mother board i tried to install a buad hayes internal modem but it doesnt work once i dial any number the system locks i do not hear any click or ring before it the system hangs the modem has a pin dip switch to select the appropriate port once i change the settings on the dip switch the system starts working again then i bought a baud hayes external modem and checked the system it works fine with both the serial ports the internal modem has been checked on another machine and it works fine but does not work on my machine can anyone please help me to find the problem thanks narm gadiraju ngadiraj infonode ingr com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re scsi vs ide in article iisakkil apr beta hut fi iisakkil beta hut fi mika iisakkila writes randy msc cornell edu writes do all scsi cards for dos systems require a separate device driver to be loaded into memory for each scsi device hooked up no all that i ve seen have also an on board bios which enables you to use up to hard drives directly under dos drives is a dos limitation and you have the same problem with ide and all other standards for that matter software drivers often allow for better performance though you have to use them if you want to use other devices besides hard disks or have more than disks no the always in among others requires no drivers for up to scsi hard drives dos does not have a drive maximum as i already have all is done in hardware there s no software drivers at all
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help is a samtron sc interlaced or non hello my colleague has a samtron monitor on the manual cover it says sc and sc for model numbers the manual does not specify if it is interlaced or non interlaced so does anyone know what it is thanks mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s sdnet bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re quantum lps a hard disk phantom seeks this is normal behavior for these drives and many other models the drive is doing a recalibration adjusting for temperature changes if you leave the machine on the frequency of the recalibrations goes way down
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	writing emm driver i m writing a driver that needs to remap some i o ports this means virtual mode unfortunately virtual mode means it won t get along with expanded memory managers so i need make it an emm driver too does anyone out there have emm code can any point me to an emm code source thanks morgan morgan dl bc edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	et w chip graphics accelerator i got a et w card which is made by cardex yesterday and ran a winmark test on it the card is a vl bus card which can display million colours in x mode with mb dram it comes with et w window drivers and a normal et drivers the et w drivers handles x x x in colours also in x and x it supports hicolor k and k colours here is my winmark result running on a mb dx eisa vl bus system using hint chipsets winmark from zd lab using et w drivers x megapixel sec k k x k k kx using et drivers x m x colours kx from the result the et w drivers are specialized to use the hardware feature of the et w chip whereas the et drivers are just normal driver for et based graphics card the price of this graphics card that i got is from a local dealer it may be less from mail order it has os drivers comes with it which supports colors on all resolution from these results it has double the performance of a et ax based card in colours mode philip sinn sinn carson u washington edu university of washington it is all my opinions
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx vs dx in article c xw x btb austin ibm com lance hartmann austin ibm com lance har tmann writes in article z zgc rpi edu arnolm aix rpi edu matthew richard arnold writ es would someone be willing to explain to me the dx mhz is not more popular than it is i would think it would be just as fast if not faster than the dx mhz for certian applications plus a mhz motherboard would seem better if you had any plans on upgrading the chip in the future i must be missing something since everyone is buying the dx many adds don t even mention the dx one of the things going for the dx over the is that it s clock speed complies with the vesa local bus spec lance hartmann lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com a couple other problems with the dx system manufacturers had major problems solving the electromagnetic interference problems with dx systems getting an fcc b home use certification required additional shielding in the system heat a lot of people seem to be installing heat sinks and or cooling fans on their dx chips i would guess that the dx ran temperatures inside the case even hotter and heat is the enemy of system reliability ed any above opinions are the sole property of the below named person edward k jen ejen magnus acs ohio state edu academic computing services the ohio state university
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re consumer warning midwest micro ohio in article r jqm ebm usenet ins cwru edu ab cleveland freenet edu sam latonia writes i must say that i have been a customer of midwest micro for over years now and have been well taken care of on each purchase i have had many friends that have bought that same modem and they do have some experience with setting up modems so there have been no problems in of them that i know of the fact that your time to valuable for you to spend on the modem is where you went wrong why you say because i must tell you of the yes i say ppi modems that i have had in the past that i was trying to use on my bbs they all were junk and were replace times each to ther point that i just said forget it and i wanted my money back ppi s teck even said that they didn t even repair them that they just strip the parts that are good and junk thr rest of the modem i think it was more your fault than midwest mirco s faulkt sam gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash what ever happened to the idea that the customer is always right joe p s i consider midwaste micro s technique of slapping their own name on a product to be misleading especially if it was not originally manufactured with that intent in mind
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors nanao in article c uw t hi eskimo com johnn eskimo com john navitsky writes hello i ve been following discussions on monitors in comp sys ibm pc hardware and noted that the nanao seems to get very good reviews i m interested in getting more information about nanao s products as well as some others that may fit the bill from the may computer shopper magazine nanao f i nanao t i tube manufacturer mitsubishi sony trinitron active screen size diag maximum resolution x x video bandwidth mhz min max vertcl scan rate khz min max horiz scan rate khz dot pitch mm sugg list price street price both have brightness contrast h v positioning h v size h v convergence and color front panel and digital also a front panel degaussing control
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors nanao in article c wkx frv news iastate edu schauf iastate edu brian j schaufenbuel writes what tube does the viewsonic use does is support x i ve been looking a a philips dt which uses a sony trinitron tube has digital controls supports up to x ni and has mm dot pitch it can be found for under do you mean the viewsonic it uses a matsushita tube the computer shopper review faults it for having below average sharpness and for lacking some controls pincushioning degaussing convergence and color it was the lowest priced monitor in the test and did have good center to edge focus
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	mhz standard pc won t run windows in turbo mode i have a standard computer dx mhz eisa tower with mb ram a quantum mb hard drive and mb floppies and a colorado mb tape drive i also have a sound blaster pro and a com ethernet card c installed the machine is completely stable in non turbo mode in turbo mode windows for workgroups crashes or won t come up at all if windows does come up i get general protection faults and divide by zero system errors is there a problem with memory keeping up with the speed of the cpu o n these machines i have tried to reach standard computers but their phones have been disconnected does anyone know what happened to this company yamohs yet another mail order horror story i d prefer e mailed responses as i don t get to read this newsgroup often
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	headland video vramii k ver upgrade info needed i have a headland technologies video seven vramii board that only came with k at the time this was ok but i need info or help with upgrading this board to mbyte there are rows of pins over the vram chips i think for a piggyback board of vram i would like to hear from anyone that may be able to help me upgrade this board maybe someone from headland who maybe read ing this has one of these piggyback boards just laying around please please please does anyone know of where i could maybe buy the upgrade for this i would sure love to use this in x color mode but for the time being i can only get of the screen with the bottom part a white strip obviously because of the missing vram actually i m surprised it even works to this degree at all as a last resort i will wind up selling this board and probably be getting a mb et based dumb frame buffer this vramii was editors choice in the pc mag so if anyone has any info please email or as a last resort post to this group thanks in advance
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx vs dx arnolm aix rpi edu matthew richard arnold writes chip in the future i must be missing something since everyone is buying the dx many adds don t even mention the dx the mhz external bus speed provides a hell for cache designs most of the dx boards have too slow caches that make them effectively dx s also as someone else pointed out local bus boards are better off at mhz bus speed the k internal cache allows the dx to be generally faster anyway segmented memory helps structure software
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need an esdi hdd for posessed system ahhhuuurrrrgggghhhh spinrite says sectors marked bad in the fat initially returned to active use new sectors marked bad following successive runs of spinrite i think i need a new esdi hdd controller i know that these two will work dtc adaptec b others that might work dtc ultra store wd v if you own one and will sell it cheaply i ll buy it thanks greg bishop gt a hydra gatech edu gt designing tommorow the night before with yesterday s technology
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hawk motherboard has anybody ever heard of hawk eisa vlb motherboards net computers international from computer shopper has the version w k cache for i m trying to decide between this motherboard and the nice motherboard thanks ps the hawk motherboard has eisa slots two of which are vlb the spec sounds identical to the nice tim m it cs nyu edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway dx v too high a price gkoh athena mit edu glenn koh writes then again maybe for the gateway system isn t too cheap i have a system from micron computers meg ram maxtor hd local bus ide meg video card and the same monitor the system with shipping came to i sold the sx chip that came with it and bought a dx total price i think you got something wrong here you state that the system was a dx then say that you sold the sx chip that came with it this does not make sense scott linn scott hpcvccl cv hp com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re low emission monitors who besides nec hartzman kilroy jpl nasa gov les hartzman writes does anyone else make low radiation emission monitors besides nec how do they compare to necs quality and emission wise les hartzman hartzman kilroy jpl nasa gov jet propulsion laboratory m s oak grove dr pasadena ca les i am right now working on an mpr ii certified swedish standards for low emissions hitachi superscan monitor it s x up to hz at that res and it got a good write up for image quality in a recent feb issue of pc magazine as far as i know very little fully matches a nec in image quality at least according to the mags i can t tell any difference between the two but i think nec is low emissions on only one of the two types there s vlf very low frequency and elf i think that s extremely low frequency the mpr ii standards set strict limits on both but many comapnies nec included according to one article i read i get a bunch of mags so it s hard for me to remember which which claim low emissions but not specifically mpr ii compliant or mpr ii certified only control for one usually vlf and ignore the other so the nec probably has higher overall image quality i consis tently hear it rated as the best or close to the best but not as low emissions as the hitachi i like my image quality but for all i know you may be more discerning good luck mitch v kcbp ubvms cc buffalo edu oh yeah i got my hitachi superscan from insight for
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway dx v update i just ordered my dx v system from gateway thanks for all the net discussions which helped me decide among all the vendors and options right now the dx v system includes mb of ram the mb upgrade used to cost an additional mike yang silicon graphics inc mikey sgi com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re low emission monitors who besides nec in article c yp c kt acsu buffalo edu v kcbp ubvmsd cc buffalo edu mitch writes i am right now working on an mpr ii certified swedish standards for low emissions hitachi superscan monitor it s x up to hz at that res and it got a good write up for image quality in a recent feb issue of pc magazine as far as i know very little fully matches a nec in image quality at least according to the mags i can t tell any difference between the two but i think nec is low emissions on only one of the two types there s vlf very low frequency and elf i think that s extremely low frequency the mpr ii standards set strict limits on both but many comapnies nec included according to one article i read i get a bunch of mags so it s hard for me to remember which which claim low emissions but not specifically mpr ii compliant or mpr ii certified only control for one usually vlf and ignore the other nanao s f series e g f i and t series e g t i monitors are mpr ii compliant according to my little pamphlet the t series monitors are also tco compliant whatever that is mike yang silicon graphics inc mikey sgi com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	et w dbench due to the large amount of request for dbench of et w i finally can get a dbench v from a ftp site the dbench of et w in my cardex w card with mb dram has superscape benchmark of frames sec hope it will satisfy people curiosity of this et w performance what other benchmark program result you would want to know philip sinn sinn carson u washington edu university of washington it is all my opinions
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors nanao in reply to johnn eskimo com s message of apr gmt newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware comp sys amiga hardware comp sys sun hardware subject re monitors nanao references c uw t hi eskimo com distribution text follows this line i have a nanao f on my ipx i prefer it to my sun trinitron at work with all those vertical jitters and the two horizontal shadowmask thingies i got it from one of the folks advertising in computer shopper et al for plus about shipping i bought a cable which goes from the sun s w connector to the monitors xrgbs for about from a macintosh mailorder shop relax technologies i d do it again happily chris shenton gsfc nasa gov nasa gsfc hstx
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re date is stuck i ve posted a couple of notes about encountering this problem based on some suggestions from mark aitchison university of canterbury new zealand and chris a larrieu cs wm edu i think that my problem is a screen saver that also outputs sound to my pc speaker i m still looking at some of the other screen savers that i use with a randomizer but this one definately caused the loss of several minutes over night but not the date this time barry sardis home laurie avenue office san jose ca fax email bsardis netcom com or compuserve com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re com card shows up as com with com s address and irq in article c x fe cie genesis nred ma us avinash genesis nred ma us writes i have an internal modem that i configure as com with irq but when i insert that card into my dos pc it shows up as com with irq and com s address e when i get into debug and dump the data at it shows the address e as belonging to com even though the modem should be at com this is a common misconception shared my many manufacturers programmers and users alike com for example is simply the third equipped comm port not necessarily the one with i o address e the bios just searches sequentially through a set of potential comm port addresses the first equipped port it finds will become com etc if you re playing by the rules you can t have a com unless you have a com equipped the set of standard whatever that means port addresses merely reflects the order in which the bios searches the i o address space in its search for serial ports so what you have is indeed com at the non standard address e were this address in the th table slot instead programs which query the bios to determine the number of installed comm ports would not find it as the field in the bios data area which contains this number would indicate that there are but comm ports installed frankly i don t know of a simgle program that would actually have a problem with this bob nichols at t bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm ih att com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide in zenith okay anyone have experiences good or bad with replacing the mfm controller and drive with an ide controller and drive in a zenith i had heard some rumors about bus mastering problems on some cpu board revisions shamus mc bride tecslm sdc boeing com boeing computer services tecslm sdc atc boeing com uw beaver bcsaic sdc tecslm
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what exactly is the ibm made slc or slc processor could someone please tell me if the slc and slc processors ibm is putting in their thinkpad s and other pc s is a real with a math coprocessor or if it is really some kludge that should not be called a at all thanks eric eric w braeden der verstand war zwar praechtig ohio state university doch das nuetzte am ende nicht viel ebraeden magnus acs ohio state edu peter schilling grad
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help wanted faults on ide drives i have a mb ide drive and am having a few problems i get data error on drive c messages when reading some files the problem is also steadily getting worse i have run some diagnostic software pctools v and it says that the drive is ok but it does have to retry some sectors and it briefly flashes up an error message which is too quick to read does anybody know of any cheap or free software which could mark these sectors as bad dos doesn t or preferably perform a low level format i have heard that the latter is possible on an ide technical answers would be appreciated it would be nice to be able to use the disk again i am running ms dos on an at clone
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cpu fans in article edm wrs com edm wrs com ed mcclanahan writes jim johnson abcd houghton mi us jim johnson writes k speaking of cpu fans many use clips make sure you use heat sink grease or heat transfering tape or you will have wasted your money do these cpu fans also have heat sinks do you recommend using both on the same chip i e heat sink sandwiched between cpu and fan if we are just talking about a cpu fan blowing directly on the cpu chip i can t see how heat sink grease is necessary or even desireable edward mcclanahan edm wrs com i have a pc power and cooling fan and it is a heat sink with a built in fan that glues on top of the cpu even if the fan quits you still have the heat sink fins to aid cooling the glue of course is the type that has high thermal conductivity
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	comdex atlanta ga info wanted i know this is the wrong newsgroup but i was wondering if anyone knows the date s of this year s comdex convention in atlanta ga or has it passed already e mail if possible thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	tower without a fan i originally posted a complaint about how noisy my pc was i got several useful suggestions but was the most seductive run your pc in silence by removing the fan altogether two variables i always run my pc without the cover and i d be willing to attach a cpu cooler if that would make a difference should i try to run my pc without a fan i know it sounds like utter folly so i m asking has anyone done this succesfully or tragically you re answer may save my pc thanks alexander lerman alerman netcom com voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	strange disk behaviour i have a with a western digital wd a hard drive this drive is cylinders with read write heads physically but logically it is cylinders with read write heads in the cmos setting i am instructed to set it to type ibm cyl read write heads the problem i was sent western digitals ispfmt low level program from the manufacturer and was instructed to run it on the hard drive with the cmos setting set to type this worked o k and i verified the disk using the same program i then reloaded dos which did a high level format again no errors no bad sectors etc but when i run norton speedisk or any other disk optimizer with the verify option set on i get error verifying sector nnnn where nnnn can be any number not the same all the time any ideas as to what is going on here would be appreciated thank you steve hamilton nbb dsacng dla mil
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dx chips i have a dx motherboard in my pc that i d like to speed up i d rather not replace the whole motherboard instead i d like to know if i can use a dx mhz cpu the bios is late model ami circa and the system crystal is approx mhz my question is can i just replace the original mhz cpu with the new dx cpu if its possible will there be a need for extra cooling devices such as heatsinks and or muffin fans mike
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re spigot on lc iii in article apr aristo tau ac il isaaci ccsg tau ac il barash isaac writes a friend of mine has problems running spigot lc on an lc iii his configuration is spigot lc lc iii system video spigot extension i would appriciate if i can get any postitive negative experience with this setup somebody in comp multimedia was also having trouble using a spigot in his lc iii it turned out he needed the latest version of screenplay which fixed things lawrence d oliveiro fone computer services dept fax university of waikato electric mail ldo waikato ac nz hamilton new zealand s e gmt
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerbook sleep init request someone asked me if i there existed an init that removes the dialog you re gonna disconnect all apletalk users or something like that when the powerbook falls asleep he said he was sure that such a thing existed and he thought it was freeware can anyone help me out with this btw where can i get switch a roo or something of the kind but schareware or freeware
comp.sys.mac.hardware	need a card for sony i recently made the mistake of purchasing a sony cpd monitor for my mac iici the monitor is very good however it seems that the iici does not support vga then why did you buy it you ask i am stupid i reply what i am looking for is a video card preferably bit which supports vga i am interested in any information i can get offers for the sale of applicable cards will also be considered thanks in advance jim pyke
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerbook serial ports hello i have a question or two about the serial ports for the powerbooks specifically the with system is there a difference between the serial ports on the powerbooks versus any other mac say plus or ii i have heard though not confirmed by apple that the serial ports have problems at high speeds i also heard that sys s new power manager fixes this problem allowing speeds just as any other serial port my particular use is that i have a evb board that i need to interface with my powerbook via the modem port at baud currently we are interfacing using mac pluses i set everything up just as in lab and nothing in fact the powerbook locks up can anyone help inform advise i would appreciate it i would prefer email since i don t read the news at all i will post a summary if enough response is generated thanks faisal m bhamani faceman ccwf cc utexas edu ps if this topic has been discussed already please excuse me and direct me to the appropriate places thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re buying a high speed v everything modem ejbehr rs cmp ilstu edu eric behr writes just a quick summary of recent findings re high speed modems top three contenders seem to be at t paradyne zyxel and us robotics zyxel has the biggest cult following and can be had for under but i ignored it because i need something with mac software which will work without any tweaking you shouldn t have ignored the zyxel it can be purchased with a mac bundle which includes a hardware handshaking cable and faxstf software the bundle adds between and to the price of the modem depending on the supplier it is true that the modem has no mac specific docs but it doesn t require much tweaking aside from setting d in the init string to enable hardware handshaking for more information on the zyxel including sources look at various files on sumex aim stanford edu in info mac report disclaimer i have no affiliation with zyxel though i did buy a zyxel a u e modem
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iici rom offers bit clean rom for iix last week s macweek article by ric ford indicated that david ramsey s mac iix has been running nicely with a mac iici rom in it offering clean bit rom code liberating his iix from the virtual memory nightmare caused by apple s bit system enabler does anyone know of a source for these roms is it okay for a remanufacturer to resell only rom chips from used machines i know that copies cannot be made but it seems to me that it would be okay to resell the original used rom after all reselling a used computer involves the sale of the rom anyway so what s the difference needless to say i m interested in purchasing such a rom what would be a reasonably price to offer morgan davis group internet mdavis crash cts com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re ethernet card that uses a rose in apr csu edu au mantolov golum riv csu edu au michael antolovich writes in article aaron bratcher fpm mac uchicago edu aaron bratcher fpm uchicago edu aaron bratcher writes does anyone know if there is an ethernet card that takes advantage of the a rose extension hey what does the a rose extension do anyway newsgroups comp sys mac system from probulf informatik tu muenchen de frank probul subject re a rose with centris and quadra models organization technische universitaet muenchen germany date mon apr gmt a rose apple real time operating system environment this is a system extension for these nubus cards using the mcp macintosh coprocessor platform the mcp cards are nubus cards with a motorola processor and kb ram expandable to meg mcp is a development platform for hardware designers so they can use a card with an own processor and thus the main processor isn t needed for these cards currently the only cards i know are the apple tokenring card the new apple ethernet card the apple nubus serial card perhaps there are some third party cards but i don t know frank probul emanuelstr d munich germany applelink probul f applelink apple com internet probulf informatik tu muenchen de munich university of technology department of computer science germany
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re iici rom offers bit clean rom for iix in article mdavis crash cts com mdavis crash cts com morgan davis writes last week s macweek article by ric ford indicated that david ramsey s mac iix has been running nicely with a mac iici rom in it offering clean bit rom code liberating his iix from the virtual memory nightmare caused by apple s bit system enabler this would make me a bit suspect of mr ramsey s qualifications as a self styled expert in fact when i read about anybody using virtual memory regularly i kind of wonder yes one can sometimes get away with running a newer rom of the correct size obviously in an older machine but one should be prepared for problems if running software that checks for machine type rather than rom trap availability and then draws incorrect conclusions when special casing especially timing dependent and driver related stuff in this particular case i see no reason to go to the trouble of rom swapping the apple bit enabler has problems but mode works just fine with and does anyone know of a source for these roms sure buy a used iici motherboard call pre owned electronics shreve or other parts dealers see the back of computer shopper or one of the mac trades for phone numbers and ask for a price on a iici rom everything has a price if you happen to find somebody who salvaged a iici with a dead motherboard you might get a decent price there is probably a market for used mother boards as well so they might sell a rom anyway needless to say i m interested in purchasing such a rom what would be a reasonably price to offer ask for a quote and then try offering less pre owned and shreve have been known to dicker their ads in various trade magazines often list considerably different prices for the same items and their phone quotes tend to vary as well still i m not aware of any technical reason for upgrading the rom in a iix bill johnston johnston me udel edu chambers street newark de
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris font problems i recently got a centris on my desk it s a vast improvement on my previous machine a iisi however i ve encountered a problem with fonts entries in a filemaker database which looked fine when printed from my previous mac using system now look wierd spacing between characters has increased greatly causing lines to be truncated i m using plain and bold helvetica in various sizes the increase in character spacing seems to occur for all sizes and styles i m using a mixture of truetype and fixed size fonts exactly as on my iisi when things worked perfectly we ve managed to get similar behaviour using word apple uk adopted their usual friendly approach and told us to call our local dealer god help us any ideas dr pete edwards department of computing science king s college university of aberdeen tel aberdeen ab ue fax scotland email pedwards csd abdn ac uk artificial flowers pieces of plastic and metal crudely fashioned to bear a limited superficial resemblance to real flowers but with no credible attempt to match their internal complexity in terms of form function or behavior artificial intelligence really smart computers
comp.sys.mac.hardware	performa or lc hi i have a question which is the diference between performa and lciii i want to know which is better if you know the specifications and the prices of this computers can you tell me by email to rcvillab isluga puc cl i d like to know the diference between the apple monitor and the performa monitor too thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re new duo dock info in article baa e c mizzou missouri edu c mizzou missouri edu writes why no it is a little known fact that no macs have a cpu they are all connected via a cellular network to the cray supercomputer in apple s garage that s right the same one where steve steve built the apple shannon silly you don t you know the only division at apple allowed to use the cray is the legal department gordon
comp.sys.mac.hardware	looking for magneto optical drive advice i m currently trying to select which magneto optical drive to purchase i m primarily looking at mb drives although i might consider mb ones when looking through macworld and macuser ads the prices for the mb drives seem to range from just under for the dgr rem portable magic mb portable fujitsu or nudesign mb from macdirect to about for the fwb hammerdisk and mass microsystems datapak mo different drives use different mechanisms most fujitsu sony epson probably some others my problem is that after reading the nov macworld and apr macuser reviews of these drives i m still not sure what to get so i m asking if anyone has had good bad experiences with any mb m o drive or can shed some light on the wide range of prices is spending more really buying me much reliability of different drives compatibility between them or anything else i should probably know thanks john sasinowski
comp.sys.mac.hardware	personal lw ntr serial hookup can anyone tell me the procedure for hooking a personal laserwriter ntr serially to a mac the documentation says it can be done but i m not sure of the correct switch setting to use out of the given non appletalk switch options also will i need to install a new driver so that the chooser knows the printer is hooked up directly not networked thanks a lot ross
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare in article apr bmug org david a schnider bmug org writes the real question here in my opinion is what motorola processors running system on a mac are comparable to what intel processors running windows on a pc i recall there being a conversation here that a running windows benchmarks at about the same speed as mhz in system i don t know if that is true but i would love to hear if anyone has any technical data on this david that seems about right i have a mac iisi with k cache card running system my roommate has a sx running windows and from what i ve seen my iisi is faster in some operations in others they are comparable but keep in mind i m strictly speaking of operations on the desktop level of windows and system not actual computational speed in other programs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	duo price reduction someone mentioned a while ago that the duos were scheduled for a price reduction according to newsbytes is this definite does anyone know when it will take effect and what is newsbytes thanks cam daly phone f internet cam athena mit edu memorial dr he who fights and runs away cambridge ma lives to nuke the site from orbit
comp.sys.mac.hardware	need modem software recommendation i am planning on buying a modem and related software what are some good products out there that won t cost me a lot of money but will still do the job any help will be appreciated i am looking for something in the baud area kenneth kenneth david suzan internet kdsu ltd uhura cc rochester edu c p u box wrur fm rochester ny cast weatherline university of rochester rock from the reagan years pm f r i d a y s
comp.sys.mac.hardware	selling of powerbook s i have a pb that i might be selling soon to upgrade to a duo before graduation to take advantage of the educational discount to those who have recently bought or sold a pb what kind of price did you get info on any config of pb appreciated thanks cam daly phone f internet cam athena mit edu memorial dr he who fights and runs away cambridge ma lives to nuke the site from orbit
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare david a schnider bmug org wrote the real question here in my opinion is what motorola processors running system on a mac are comparable to what intel processors running windows on a pc i stuff deleted david even better than that how does a based amiga perform in daily tasks compared to my based iici answer except in a very few cases i get my butt kicked by the amiga sure there are other considerations but it goes to show you how proper design from the beginning in hardware and software can give you great returns as well as showing you that if you don t have a marketing department to speak of no one will care how good your system is i m still happy with my ci but i don t understand why the performance is so bad comparatively they could have done multi tasking properly they could have done everthing else better but apple didn t of course dos and windows are nothin to write home about either oh well y all got worth for the price of peter pundy email jeff lab queensu ca i ve got no witty wisdom to share but have a nice day anyway
comp.sys.mac.hardware	networking macs and a pc at work we have a small appletalk network with macs and couple of printers we also have a pc that has some specialized accounting software that we would like to operate from any of the macs we have soft pc and i have found that the software works just fine under it but i would like to have all of the data for the program reside at one place the pc hard disk so my question for you is actually questions is there a board for the pc that will allow you to hook into an appletalk network if is possible is there any software hardware combination that will allow me to mount the pc hard disk as a networked disk on the macs so i can use soft pc to run the application if or is impossible is there any other way to accomplish what i am after chris parrish university of oklahoma to share is to split cmparris essex ecn uoknor edu kmfdm
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re mac plus is constantly rebooting tae shin tshin husc harvard edu wrote basically the mac pluses are constantly rebooting themselves as if the reboot button were being pushed sometimes the mac is able to fully boot and display the desktop but it is only a matter of time before it reboots again at times the frequency is as high as several times a minute i wonder if your mac has those little reset interupt switches installed they are plastic devices that push on the switches which are inside the mac or mabey those switches are bad and need replacing i wish i caught the original post but anyway the problem is that the plus s poor old power supply sometimes referred to as the analog sweep board is on its way out apart from a board swap bikkies to apple there s not much the average joe can do to fix it you can of course try and re adjust the voltage levels the v rail should be as close to v as you cn get it but this is more often than not a temporary fix a copy of larry pina s macntosh repair upgrade secrets is a worthwhile investment for the serious do it yaself er geoff peters mididoc cola flash pax tpa com au
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare i guess the real question is who asked the original questions and why was it so broad are we talking pure processing power what kind of processing btw isolated from every other factor and influence in the system or are we shopping for a home computer based on the cpu specs yuck i just finished a project that involves real time processing of serial data and discovered that the programming interface assembly has a lot to do with the power of a cpu in a particular application if what you want to do is easy to code with the instruction set given then not only is it easy but it s cheap and quick if you have to fake things like resolving indirection without a lea instruction then your cycle count goes through the roof well let s not start a flame war about whose computer is better than whose the orginal question was about classifying micro processors having re read the entire thread i don t think much more can be said without getting down into specific proposed systems with important details given that s it for another cheers everyone peter pundy email jeff lab queensu ca i ve got no witty wisdom to share but have a nice day anyway
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re good hard disk driver for non apple drives sys compat in article jartsu apr lk hp hut fi jartsu hut fi jartsu wrote hi there what is your recommendation for a good hard disk driver software for non apple drives i would mainly need it for a syquest removable media drive but maybe for some normal drives too fwb distributes hdt personal edition hdt hard drive toolkit which is what i own this is less fancy than the full version but good enough for what you and i want to do casa blanca offers drive but i m not that familiar with it i think that both drive and hdt pe can be had for around us i ve used silverlinging at work v and i like hdt pe much better imho it has a better interface and easier to understand any drive users james
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re when is apple going to ship cd i s in r d r baf umcc umcc umich edu dlc umcc umcc umich edu david claytor writes btw i ve heard that the system install cd can be used to boot the mac however my drive will not accept a cd caddy is the machine is off how can you boot with it then the supplemental manual that comes with the quadra explains it i don t have the manual in front of me but as i recall you insert the cd while the machine is running select restart from the special menu and then hold down a special sequence of keys to force it to boot from the cd instead of the hard disk i think the key combination is command option delete or command ctrl del
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re calling all mac gurus in article qvs t q f usenet ins cwru edu charles p cox jr cox snowhite eeap cwru edu writes i put k vram simms in my quadra in the slots closest to the ram simm slots and i got no results whatsoever does it make any difference which slots you put the simms in the vram simms go in the slots at the back closest to the power supply david gutierrez drg biomath mda uth tmc edu only fools are positive moe howard
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra startup w out monitor ya right in article apr tdb uu se mats bredell udac uu se writes shawn fitzgerald chungkuo umcc umcc umich edu wrote is there a fix for this we have a quadra that will not finish startup unless there is a monitor connected this would be no problem but since we re running it as a file server there is no need to have a monitor connected all the time i ve seen a control panel made for this i don t remember the name where i saw it or on what quadra models it will work but i do know it exists mats mats bredell mats bredell udac uu se uppsala university computing center udac ph department of medical systems fax sweden think straight be gay i will poke around in the u of m archives and see if i find something if anyone else finds this please post the location horsefeathers shawn fitzgerald umcc u of m computing club michigan chungkuo umcc umich edu whether you are quiet and alive or quiet and dead makes no difference to cerebus
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re mac oriented bbss i m also interested in mac based bbs but not in chicago i would greatly appreciate it if someone could post a list of bbss in the la area preferably but also thanks dan
comp.sys.mac.hardware	computer component source inc phone number i would like to know the regular international phone number of a computer supplier called computer component source their free phone number is this number is no use to customers outside the us i wish to upgrade the power supply on a couple of mac plus computers and would like to make contact with computer component source bruce muschamp crop and food research srchbgm chv lincoln cri nz
comp.sys.mac.hardware	asante ethernet adapter for lciii math chip hi i have been told by a local sales that asante has come out with this lciii pds ethernet adapter with an optional socket on the board my question is will the fpu performance degrade will i put the on the pds card socket instead of on the motherboard itself intuitively the math co processor should always be placed close to the cpu but i am not sure how good apple s so called processor direct slot is when it comes to throughout does anyone know the answer to this or have any experience with the asante lciii ethernet adapter thanks in advance andy andy sun andy ie utoronto ca taddle creek road toronto computing coordinator ontario canada m s a department of industrial engineering phone university of toronto fax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pin out of imagewriter ii serial port hi could some kind soul please e mail me a copy of the pinout for the serial connector on an imagewriter ii printer we have one that we d like to hook up to a pc and it seems that nobody sells the proper cables anymore no problem i can make one but i need to know the pinout first thanks in advance joel kolstad kolstad cae wisc edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	harddrive does anyone out there know how to add an additional internal hard drive to a mac iisi not to replace the already existing hardrive i was think of hooking to internal drive together or any other ways to add internal harddrive beside replacement i just don t wanadd an external harddrive i m open to any suggestions please response to the address below thanks internet yolo utkvx utk edu bitnet yolo utkvx
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra startup w out monitor ya right in article r p r gv umcc umcc umich edu chungkuo umcc umcc umich edu shawn fitzgerald wrote in article apr tdb uu se mats bredell udac uu se writes shawn fitzgerald chungkuo umcc umcc umich edu wrote is there a fix for this we have a quadra that will not finish startup unless there is a monitor connected this would be no problem but since we re running it as a file server there is no need to have a monitor connected all the time i ve seen a control panel made for this i don t remember the name where i saw it or on what quadra models it will work but i do know it exists mats mats bredell mats bredell udac uu se uppsala university computing center udac ph department of medical systems fax sweden think straight be gay i will poke around in the u of m archives and see if i find something if anyone else finds this please post the location i think i found what your looking for on ftp apple com in the dts mac sys soft video directory and is called virtual monitor switch hope this helps charles kuehmann northwestern university steel research group
comp.sys.mac.hardware	serial pinout to connect to pc sorry this must be a faq but it s a quick fix that i need to take care of before a demo in less than hours from now couldn t think of a better place for a rapid answer than comp sys mac hardware i need to connect the serial a of a compac pc to the printer port of a mac iici does anyone have handy the pin pin routing for the cable that would allow this connection the serial port on the compaq is a male db how would this map to the din of the mac serial i tried one of those really short femaledb maledin cables that apple sold as adaptors to plug in macintosh serial peripherals from the pre macplus era this cable didn t do it do i need a null modem adaptor as well on the db side of things i just need to be able to map the data tx and rx pins correctly thanks kindly atau tanaka tanaka ircam fr
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how do i expand ram on a plus i have a mac plus with mb ram i have just bought an extra mb so that i can have the max mb ram that a plus supports however i can t get it to boot after i install the extra simms instead i get a sad mac sorry but i can t remember the code looking at the motherboard i can see that resistors have been snipped off where it says kb path row i assume that was done when the first mb simms were added so my question is are there any other resistors that need snipping or do i have bum simms which need to be exchanged any and all advice will be appreciated chris gatenby gatenb mrisun med yale edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re mac plus is constantly rebooting basically the mac pluses are constantly rebooting themselves as if the reboot button were being pushed sometimes the mac is able to fully boot well this threads been going long enough i ll add a diferent twist i found that the constant rebooting was due to overheating we had added mb ram and were operating in a non ac environment adding an external cooling fan fixed it right up over a year ago george jefferson george mech seas upenn edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pc logitec hand scan on mac i have a logitech grays hand scanner from a pc i m wondering if anyone has been successful in connecting the scanner to a mac it has the same connector and is a serial device on the pc i can imagine the pins coniguration would need to changeed but i m not sure if the signal levels would be correct and if the mac s w would work with it of course the manuals say nothing about the interface connector layout or anything h w ish any ideas thanx steve
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re duo price reduction in article r a vinnt d senator bedfellow mit edu cam athena mit edu daniel cameron daly writes someone mentioned a while ago that the duos were scheduled for a price reduction according to newsbytes is this definite does anyone know when it will take effect and what is newsbytes thanks it already happened as far as i know i got some email about three weeks ago saying it was coming and sure enough a week after that the duos dropped in price i think the duo is now around us xx the educational prices have dropped and i imagine others as well but i haven t really checked around since i boycott the local necrocenter for reasons that extend over the past years jt
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re asante ethernet adapter for lciii math chip in article c syk js ie utoronto ca andy ie utoronto ca andy sun writes hi i have been told by a local sales that asante has come out with this lciii pds ethernet adapter with an optional socket on the board my question is will the fpu performance degrade will i put the on the pds card socket instead of on the motherboard itself intuitively the math co processor should always be placed close to the cpu but i am not sure how good apple s so called processor direct slot is when it comes to throughout does anyone know the answer to this or have any experience with the asante lciii ethernet adapter thanks in advance andy andy sun andy ie utoronto ca taddle creek road toronto computing coordinator ontario canada m s a department of industrial engineering phone university of toronto fax i believe the fpu on the lciii is always supposed to go on the logic board not in the pds board i have heard of crashing problems with pds based fpus on the lciii asante may have fixed them but why bother why bother building an lciii card with an fpu anyway the extra circuitry gives the card one more chance to fail i say fpu on main logic board in socket ethernet alone on pds card in slot mark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re duo price reduction in article r a vinnt d senator bedfellow mit edu cam athena mit edu daniel cameron daly wrote someone mentioned a while ago that the duos were scheduled for a price reduction according to newsbytes is this definite does anyone know when it will take effect and what is newsbytes local la stores have already reduced prices by on most duo configurations although apple dropped the list price by dan
comp.sys.mac.hardware	bit on lcii is there any third party video ram adapter for vewing bit color on lcii i heard that apple is selling it aroung please e mail me thanks young youyj mace cc purdue edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re jump starting a mac ii in article apr microsoft com v cckch microsoft com kenneth charlton writes apple dealerships once had kits to replace the soldered in batteries with a battery holder real easy to install but it does require some soldering yes points in really big holes which are fairly clear of most of the other stuff on the board if you can replace the battery you can install the battery holder matthew t russotto russotto eng umd edu russotto wam umd edu some news readers expect disclaimer here just say no to police searches and seizures make them use force not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how do you use dat tape backup i have access to a dec tlz dec dat tape backup what do i need to interface my se to the tape backup the tape backup is a scsi will norton utilities be sufficient to interface the two jason yow human factors psychology program wright state university dayton oh e mail jyow desire wright edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re selling of powerbook s in article r aaainnt d senator bedfellow mit edu cam athena mit edu daniel cameron daly writes i have a pb that i might be selling soon to upgrade to a duo before graduation to take advantage of the educational discount to those who have recently bought or sold a pb what kind of price did you get info on any config of pb appreciated thanks cam daly cam several months ago i bought a pb with external floppy appletalk remote access a kensington case and ac adapter with complete documentation and in almost new condition used for us i considered it a very good buy and am very cosy with my little baby now murray murray m altheim ils ont l orteil de bouc d un chevreil l oreille instructional consultant la corne d un chamois la face vermeille csu sacramento comme un rouge croissant dancent toute nuict altheimm csus edu dedans un carrefour ou pres d une eau qui bruict
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re when is apple going to ship cd i s in article r d r baf umcc umcc umich edu dlc umcc umcc umich edu david claytor writes system install kodak photo cd sampler alice to ocean cdrom titles application demos mozart dissonant quartet nautilus apple chronicles i assume they get the titles above plus cinderella and the games demo cdrom my cd external just arrived has plus cinderella game demo derek pinghua pinghua young department of economics pinghua econ berkeley edu university of california at berkeley pinghua econ ucbcmsa bitnet berkeley california u s a c z k sv sq co qnf
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re dat drives kelly roy heth kheth uhunix uhcc hawaii edu wrote hey i m about to purchase a dat drive does anyone know which mail order vendors offer dat drives with hp s mechanism what other mechanism is available out there good bad points we bought one from relax technologies big mistake the drive had some jumpers set incorrectly so it didn t work at first and the software they shipped with it was incompatable with the drive it was the new compression model and worst of all when i opened the drive up to fiddle with the jumpers i found the inside of the case covered with metal filings sorry to shout apparently when they drilled the mounting holes in the case they forgot to clean it before putting the drive in this was a hp drive by the way and is now working fine knock on wood no thanks to relax technologies hey your mileage may vary but let me suggest that you not buy from relax technologies even though their prices are usually about the lowest dave dave schwarze schwarze delphi nosc mil or next mail schwarze isenext saic com opinions expressed are just that
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac lc for sale for sale apple macintosh lc mb ram mb hdd fdd applecolor hi res rgb monitor keyboard mouse microphone kensington masterpiece mac ii running system all documentation and manuals symantec greatworks mac tools deluxe loaded on hdd all disks and manuals included all hardware in mint condition used a total of minutes there is absolutely nothing wrong with this system i just can t get used to a mac after using a pc shipping costs non negotiable also as an option only to the person who purchases the above apple stylewriter printer with accessory kit brand new never used in factory sealed carton shipping costs reply via e mail to david morgan hal k ann arbor mi us and leave phone number fast or call hr voice mail faster serious inquiries only please first come first served this ad was originally posted to this conference a couple of weeks ago but the first buyer couldn t finance the purchase and i accidentally killed all other replies sorry hal bbs qwk to usenet gateway four v bis dial ins free usenet mail and newsgroups pcboard am uupcb kmail call or member of eff asp asad mb disk serving ann arbor since
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii logic board re work i purchased an lciii recently and had heard a bit about a re work of the logic board i opened mine up and found the same re work with a small chip glued to the board and a couple of green wires running from it to two other chips i d like to know more about it could anyone with any or all of the following information please post it thanks a bunch what does the re work accomplish i e what does it fix what are the technical details of the re work i m looking for things such as the purpose of the chips with the new wires connected and the pin outs for those chips is a board with the re work any different functionally from one without could the re worked boards be incompatible with future releases of the operating system and finally should i even be concerned about any of this keith folsom folsom cup portal com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	is this a swim or a iwm it used to live in a se and is marked and the roms that go with it are is this the solution to the person who wants to upgrade to fdhd cheers mike
comp.sys.mac.hardware	imagewriter ii problem urgent help needed daughter has se and imagewriter ii worked well until yesterday now when she tries to print from macwrite ii or acta the printing message comes on but not printing bought new cable still no printing moved cable to modem port still no printing i m a dos person and don t know where to begin are there diagnostics for a mac
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris video problem i m having it also horton what sps mot com david horton writes bm cleveland freenet edu david kantrowitz writes when the computer is set for colors and certain operations are done particularly vertical scrolling through a window horizontal white lines appear on the monitor which generally but not always spare open windows these lines accummulate as the operation is continued if a window is moved over the involved area of the screen and then moved away the line disappear from that area of the screen this problem is not observed if the monitor is configured for colors or a inch apple monitor with colors is used has anyone not had these problems in the given configurations that would help eliminate design flaw as the explanation as a data point i m using a centris with the apple monitor and do not have these problems i can produce similar artifacts i am using a centris with an apple monitor i got the cd configuration so there is on board ethernet and megabyte of video ram the effect only occurs in color and grey modes any vertical scrolling operation whether with a scrollbar or say using vi and inserting lines will produce a scattering of horizontal flickering lines on the screen they do not persist each is visible for perhaps one refresh and then that part of the screen is back as usual they seem to always start at or about the th pixel from the left and are maybe pixels wide this is certainly not preventing me from using my macintosh but it does seem to be a sign of something perhaps grounded incorrectly in the video circuitry i went ahead and called the apple customer assistance center at or more direct the person who answered was polite i also took the chance to complain about my mouse button sticking and about the mac hanging on boot after a hard killed macsbug crash which left a cd in the drive i had to play with a paperclip for about minutes to get thing to eject after which the mac booted fine garth dickie dickie math wisc edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lc ii slowdowns i am currently managing among many other labs a lab with three lc iis a mac plus with mb external hd and a laserwriter ii ntx my problem the lc iis seem to intermittently slow to a snail s pace these lc iis have mb ram k vram and a quantum lp s hd installed i have reformatted the drive with hard disk toolkit and it gives a very respectable overall rating to this drive so it s not the drive i have reinstalled system ms word a ms works and so on all from the master disks in short i have done everything i can think of in software i am not a hardware hacker though i pop cases fairly often but nothing works the problem is intermittent and unpredictable the mouse always moves smoothly floppies always run at the same speed but occasionally for about hours at a time a machine will run like it was running on a mhz not a mhz it is very frustrating and makes it nearly unusable it does seem to worsen with increasing disk activity has anyone encountered this problem before has anyone got any ideas they would be much appreciated andrew geweke douce tfsquad mn org andrew geweke the firing squad bbs public access usenet mail and news saint paul minnesota
comp.sys.mac.hardware	system l y ernest stalnaker jcs sage cc purdue edu oo oo pur ee sage cc jcs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	check your purchase was re dat drives schwarze delphi nosc mil david schwarze writes we bought one from relax technologies big mistake the drive had some jumpers set incorrectly so it didn t work at first and the software they shipped with it was incompatable with the drive it was the new compression model and worst of all when i opened the drive up to fiddle with the jumpers i found the inside of the case covered with metal filings sorry to shout apparently when they drilled the mounting holes in the case they forgot to clean it before putting the drive in this was a hp drive by the way and is now working fine knock on wood no thanks to relax technologies i have found that you should observe the following with almost all new equipment check for warrany tape if none carefully open unit inspect for loose wires jumpers screws and other trash clean up these manufacturing mistakes now power up the unit and check it out i can t think of how many things i ve bought that weren t okay right out of the box due to sloppy qc jonathan ps this goes for any manufacturer i m not picking on anyone internet musjndx gsusgi gsu edu fidonet jonathan deitch jdeitch gisatl fidonet org bellnet atlanta play pinball don t panic i hate it when i can t trust my own technology thrills chills magic prizes hurricane geordi laforge gene roddenberry isaac asimov jim henson dr seuss mel blanc sigh
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re system l lines y ernest stalnaker jcs sage cc purdue edu oo oo pur ee sage cc jcs nice train wait this is mac hardware does it have a mac in it
comp.sys.mac.hardware	computer repairs does anyone out there know where some one can become educated in the art of repairing macintosh computers also how does one gain the prestige of being refered to as a authorized apple service person has anyone out there actually done any of this or maybe even know someone who did i would appreciate any and all comments on this subject ben roy internet br a american edu pcs poor college student
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cache card for iisi i ran speedometer s tests all of them on my iisi first with the k cache enabled then with the cache disabled i put both runs in this uuencoded machine record the numbers favor the cache mostly for benchmarks with a lot of memory throughput eric stadtherr help room consultant durham storms sage with a smile upon my face home ames ia i never want to leave this place gnr
comp.sys.mac.hardware	system on a macintosh iifx cannot run multifinder beeps my friend has a macintosh iifx on which he is running system not enough memory yet to run sys adequately and he noticed that when he tries to use multifinder on this machine the machine will beep every few seconds incessantly nonstop now this friend has a tendency to install things on his machine rather haphazardly but he did rebuild his system from scratch and it still occurs does this problem sound familiar at all to anyone for all i know the problem is caused by something really obscure but if this is a known simple thing yeah right that someone is familiar with like system multifinder doesn t run on a mac iifx or if someone here knows what he should be looking for please send e mail either to me or to him smh vaxf acdnj itt com thanx in advance digging in the dirt stay with me i need support digging in the dirt find the places i got hurt rich rosen open up the places i got hurt rlr panix com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	introductory macintosh frequently asked questions faq archive name macintosh general faq version last modified april copyright elliotte harold changes where can i ftp macintosh software i added the ftp site anl anl fr what is bin hqx cpt image etc disk doubler will decode packit archives binhex will decode macbinary files not stuffit files as the last version erroneously indicated i added the question how can i get binhex stuffit etc from a pc comp sys mac faq part an introduction to the macintosh newsgroups i introduction how do i use this document what other information is available which newsgroup should i post to someone just asked why the system was taking up sixteen megabytes on their iicx shouldn t i display my knowledge to the world by posting the seventeenth response to their question ii ftp where can i ftp macintosh software can i get shareware by e mail where can i find application x can someone mail me application x what is bin hqx cpt image etc how can i get binhex stuffit etc how can i get binhex stuffit etc from a pc iii troubleshooting what to do when things go wrong identify the problem read the read me file check for viruses reinstall the application and all its support files reinstall the system software isolate the problem contact technical support iv preventive maintenance trash unneeded files reevaluate your extensions rebuild the desktop zap the pram and reset the clock resize the system heap reinstall the system software disk utilities backing up disk defragmentation reformatting and partitioning your hard disk other faq lists currently available b comp sys mac system i memory why is my system using so much memory what is mode the bit enabler do i need them cache and carry how much memory should i allot to my cache ii system software why does apple charge for system what does system give me for my that system doesn t where can i get system how can i use system on a system only mac non us scripts and systems what is system tuneup do i need it why do my da s disappear when i turn on multifinder do i need system how can i get system on k disks iii hard disks filesharing and the file system help my folder disappeared why can t i throw this folder away why can t i share my removable drive why can t i eject this syquest cartridge cd rom etc why can t i rename my hard disk iv miscellaneous what does system error xxx mean what is a type error what is a rose easy access or one answer many questions c comp sys mac misc i viruses help i have a virus reporting new viruses ii printing and postscript how do i make a postscript file how do i print a postscript file why won t my postscript file print on my mainframe s printer why are my postscript files so big how can i print postscript on a non postscript printer how do i make my imagewriter ii print in color why doesn t printmonitor work with the imagewriter why did my document change when i printed it how can i preview a postscript file how do i edit a postscript file iii dos and the mac how can i move files between a mac and a pc how can i translate files to a dos format should i buy softpc or a real pc iv security how can i prevent users from changing the contents of a folder how can i password protect my mac v no particular place to go miscellaneous miscellanea are there any good books about the mac how do i take a picture of the screen how do i use a picture for my desktop can i replace the welcome to macintosh box with a picture what is autodoubler spacesaver more disk space are they safe how do they compare to timestwo stacker and edisk where did my icons go where can i find a user group this work is copyright by elliotte m harold permission is hereby granted to distribute this unmodified document provided that no fee in excess of normal on line charges is required for such distribution portions of this document may be extracted and quoted free of charge and without necessity of citation in normal on line communication provided only that said quotes are not represented as the correspondent s original work permission for quotation of this document in printed material and edited on line communication such as the info mac digest and tidbits is given subject to normal citation procedures i e you have to say where you got it disclaimer i do my best to ensure that information contained in this document is current and accurate but i can accept no responsibility for actions resulting from information contained herein this document is provided as is and with no warranty of any kind corrections and suggestions should be addressed to erh tesla njit edu apple macintosh laserwriter imagewriter finder hypercard and multifinder are registered trademarks and powerbook is a trademark of apple computer inc linotronic is a registered trademark of linotype hell ag inc postscript is a registered trademark and illustrator and photoshop are trademarks of adobe systems inc microsoft is a registered trademark of microsoft corporation pagemaker is a registered trademark of aldus corp autodoubler and diskdoubler are trademarks of fifth generation systems inc stuffit and stuffit deluxe are trademarks of raymond lau and aladdin systems inc stuffit spacesaver is a trademark of aladdin systems inc more disk space is a trademark of alysis software corporation timestwo is a trademark of golden triangle computers inc unix is a registered trademark of at t all other tradenames are trademarks of their respective manufacturers this is the first part of the this faq the second part is posted to comp sys mac system and features many questions about system software the third part is posted every two weeks in comp sys mac misc tables of contents for those two pieces are included above please familiarize yourself with all three sections of this document before posting all pieces are available for anonymous ftp from rtfm mit edu in the directory pub usenet news answers macintosh except for this introductory faq which appears in multiple newsgroups and is stored as general faq z the name of each file has the format of the last part of the group name followed by faq z e g the faq for comp sys mac system is stored as system faq z and the faq for comp sys mac misc is stored as misc faq z rtfm stores files as compressed z binary files if you leave off the z at the end of the file name when getting the file rtfm will automatically decompress the file before sending it to you you can also have these files mailed to you by sending an e mail message to mail server rtfm mit edu with the line send pub usenet news answers macintosh name in the body text where name is the name of the file you want as specified above e g general faq you can also send this server a message with the subject help for more detailed instructions i have a question congratulations you ve come to the right place usenet is a wonderful resource for information ranging from basic questions how do i lock a floppy disk to queries that would make steve jobs himself run screaming from the room in terror i used resedit to remove resources init wdef and nvir from my system file and used the hex editor to add code string a b as a patch to the sfgetfile routine so the standard file dialog box would be a nice shade of mauve everything worked fine until i installed supercdevblaster and now when i use the aldus driver to print from pagemaker d to a linotronic my system hangs p s i m running system on a powerbook since the macintosh newsgroups are medium to high volume we ask that you first peruse this faq list including at least the table of contents for the other pieces of it check any other relevant on line resources listed below in question especially the faq lists for the other macintosh newsgroups and rtfm read the friendly manual before posting your question we realize that you are personally incensed that the system is taking up fourteen of your newly installed twenty megs of ram but this question has already made its way around the world three hundred times before and it s developing tired feet finally before posting to any newsgroup macintosh or otherwise please familiarize yourself with the basic etiquette of usenet as described in the newsgroup news announce newusers how do i use this document where can i get it comp sys mac faq is currently divided into multiple pieces a general introduction which you re reading now and specific lists for the newsgroups comp sys mac system and comp sys mac misc faq lists for comp sys mac wanted comp sys mac apps and comp sys mac hardware are in development when ready each part will be available in its respective newsgroup all pieces are available via anonymous ftp from rtfm mit edu in the pub usenet news answers macintosh directory except for this document itself which is named general faq z the pieces are named as per the last part of the newsgroup they cover followed by faq e g system faq z misc faq z the z means the file is stored compressed so you ll need to ftp it in binary mode and use either maccompress stuffit deluxe or the unix uncompress command to decompress it however if you leave off the z extension when you get the file rtfm will automatically decompress the file before sending it to you this introductory document is posted to all of the concerned newsgroups the tables of contents for each of the specific faq lists are at the beginning of this file so you should be able to get at least some idea whether your question is answered anywhere else in the faq even if you don t have the other parts at hand it s not always obvious especially to newcomers where a particular question or comment should be posted please familiarize yourself with the faq lists in all the major macintosh newsgroups before posting in any of them which questions appear in which faqs can serve as a basic guide to what posts belong where to jump to a particular question search for section number question number enclosed in parentheses for example to find where can i ftp macintosh software search for the string to jump to a section instead of a question use a zero for the question number what other information is available comp sys mac faq provides short answers to a number of frequently asked questions appropriate for the usenet newsgroup comp sys mac misc and comp sys mac system four other files are worthy of particular note daryl spitzer maintains a faq list covering macintosh programming for the newsgroup comp sys mac programmer it s posted to that group weekly and available for anonymous ftp from ftp cs uoregon in pub mac eric rosen maintains a frequently asked questions list for comp sys mac comm available in that newsgroup and from rascal ics utexas edu in mac faq where the file you re reading now is also irregularly archived this list answers many frequently asked questions about networking unix and the mac telecommunications and foreign file formats norm walsh has compiled an excellent faq for comp fonts that answers a lot of questions about the various kinds of fonts and cross platform conversion and printing it s available in comp fonts or by ftp from ibis cs umass edu in pub norm comp fonts faq finally jim jagielski maintains a faq for comp unix aux covering apple s unix environment a ux it s posted every to weeks in comp unix aux and news answers it s available for anonymous ftp at jagubox gsfc nasa gov which newsgroup should i post to there are no stupid questions but there are misplaced ones you wouldn t ask your english teacher how to do the definite integral of ln x between zero and one would you so don t ask the programmer newsgroup why your system is so slow when microsoft word is in the background ignorance of basic netiquette is not an excuse if you want people to help you you need to learn their ways of communicating posting questions to the proper newsgroup will fill your mailbox with pearls of wisdom and maybe a few rotten oysters too posting to the wrong newsgroup often engenders a thundering silence for instance the most common and glaring mispost one that seems as incongruous to dwellers in the macintosh regions of usenet as would a purple elephant to aleuts in the arctic asking a question about networking anywhere except comp sys mac comm normally produces no useful responses posting the same question to comp sys mac comm ensures that your post is read and considered by dozens of experienced network administrators and not a few network software designers please post to exactly one newsgroup do not cross post if a question isn t important enough for you to take the extra minute to figure out where it properly belongs it s not important enough for several thousand people to spend their time reading for the same reason comp sys mac misc should not be used as a catch all newsgroup the breakdown of questions between different newsgroups in this document can also serve as a reasonable guide to what belongs where specifically questions about productivity applications software you bought your macintosh to run not software you bought to make your macintosh run better should go to comp sys mac apps unless the application is covered in a more specific newsgroup communications programs games hypercard compilers and databases all have more topical comp sys mac newsgroups post questions about non communications hardware including questions about what software is necessary to make particular hardware work to comp sys mac hardware questions about macos system software belong in comp sys mac system questions about utilities and extensions normally belong in comp sys mac misc questions about a ux go to comp unix aux detailed questions about appletalk belong in comp protocols appletalk direct questions about hypercard to comp sys mac hypercard non hypercard programming questions and questions about development environments should go to comp sys mac programmer resedit questions may be posted either to comp sys mac misc comp sys mac system or comp sys mac programmer but generally the netters who inhabit the darker recesses of comp sys mac programmer are considerably more practiced at the art of resource hacking a general exception to the above rules is that any very technical question about an application that actually begins to delve into the how s of a program as well as the what s recent example how does writenow which is written entirely in assembly compare to other word processors written in high level languages might be better addressed to the programmer newsgroup for sale and want to buy posts should go to comp sys mac wanted and misc forsale computers mac only we understand that you re desperate to sell your upgraded k mac to get the for a powerbook but trust me anyone who wants to buy it will be reading comp sys mac wanted political and religious questions the mac is better than windows is not is too is not is too hey how bout the amiga what about it is not is too belong in comp sys mac advocacy anything not specifically mentioned above probably belongs in comp sys mac misc finally don t be so provincial as to consider only the comp sys mac newsgroups the appropriate forums for your questions many questions about modems in comp sys mac comm are much more thoroughly discussed in comp dcom modems questions about mac midi are often better handled in comp music even though it s not a macintosh specific newsgroup shop around usenet s a big place and not everything relevant to the macintosh happens in comp sys mac someone just asked why the system was taking up sixteen of their twenty megabytes of ram shouldn t i put my brilliance and wit on display for the world by posting the seventeenth response no frequent answers are just as boring and uninteresting as frequent questions unless you really have something new to add to the traditional answers such as the recent discovery that fonts in system could eat memory private e mail is a much better medium for answering common questions like this one you might want to add a mention of this faq in your e mail response and a polite suggestion that your correspondent read it before posting future questions i do read all the newsgroups covered here and have written a small script in microphone ii that lets me send pwfaq s people with frequently asked questions the section of this document that answers their question with just the click of a button so please don t feel obligated to respond to someone who cares so little about the answer to their question they can t be troubled to read the faq list to get it ftp where can i ftp mac software the three major north american internet archives of shareware freeware and demo software are sumex aim stanford edu mac archive umich edu and wuarchive wustl edu which mirrors the other two sites and several others wuarchive often holds on to files after other sites remove them for space concerns and still has files that were deleted from the formerly important site rascal ics utexas edu rascal was notable for storing its files in macbinary format rather than the less efficient binhex format common at the other archives unless otherwise noted shareware and freeware mentioned in this document should be available at the above sites to keep traffic on the internet manageable scandinavians should try connecting to ftp funet fi ftp lth se or sics se instead those in the u k should look first at src doc ic ac uk continental europeans can try nic switch ch ezinfo ethz ch and anl anl fr australian users should try to find what they want at archie au which mirrors info mac and mac archive japanese users will find sumex mirrored at ftp u tokyo ac jp a fourth very important site is ftp apple com this is apple s semi official repository for system software developer tools source code technical notes and other things that come more or less straight from apple s mouth some material at this site may not be distributed outside the u s or by other sites that don t have an official license to distribute apple system software please read the various readme documents available at ftp apple com for the detailed info if you re connecting from outside the u s or if you wish to redistribute material you find here can i get shareware by e mail the info mac archives at sumex aim are available by e mail from listserv ricevm bitnet alternately listserv ricevm rice edu the listserver responds to the commands macarch help macarch index and macarch get filename mac archive files are available from mac mac archive umich edu send it a message containing the words help and index no quotes on the first two lines of your message for instructions on getting started and a list of the files you may request you can retrieve files from other sites by using the server at ftpmail decwrl dec com for details send it a message with just the text help no quotes where can i find application x if you can t find what you re looking for at one of the above sites try telnetting to your nearest archie server or sending it an e mail message addressed to archie with the subject help archie servers are located at archie rutgers edu america archie mcgill ca the original archie server in canada archie au australia archie funet fi scandinavia and archie doc ic ac uk the u k and the continent these sites index the tens of thousands of files available for anonymous ftp login as archie no password is needed and type prog filename to find what you re looking for or type help for more detailed instructions for instance you would type prog disinfectant to search for a convenient ftp site for disinfectant if the initial search fails to turn up the file you want try variations on and substrings of the name for instance if you didn t find disinfectant with prog disinfectant you might try prog disi instead substring searches often hide the gold in a pile of dross to avoid many erroneous matches add a hqx to the end of the substring e g prog disi hqx most mac software available on the net ends in hqx but almost no unix or pc software does please check the above archives and archie personally before asking where you can find a particular piece of shareware if you follow the above advice you should almost never have to ask the net where to find a particular piece of software can someone mail me application x no nor will anyone mail you a part of a file from comp binaries mac that was corrupt or missed at your site please refer to the first questions in this section to find out about anonymous ftp archie and automatic e mail servers what is bin hqx cpt etc most files available by ftp are modified twice to allow them to more easily pass through foreign computer systems first they re compressed to make them faster to download and then they re translated to either a binhex hqx or macbinary bin format that other computers can digest the macintosh uses a special two fork filing system that chokes most other computers binhex files are bit ascii text files while macbinary files are pure bit binary data that must always be transferred using a binary protocol how a file has been translated and compressed for transmission is indicated by its suffix normally a file will have a name something like filename xxx yyy xxx indicates how it was compressed and yyy indicates how it was translated to use a file you ve ftp d and downloaded to your mac you ll need to reverse the process most files you get from the net require a two step decoding process first change the binhex hqx or macbinary bin file to a double clickable macintosh file then decompress it which programs decode which file types is covered in the table below also note that most macintosh telecommunications programs will automatically convert macbinary files to regular macintosh files as they are downloaded suffix sit cpt hqx bin pit z image dd zip uu tar extractors stuffit x x x x x compact pro x x packit x uutool x maccompress x suntar x x x x binhex x binhex x diskdoubler x x unzip x diskcopy x macutil x x x x a few notes on the decompressors stuffit is a family of products that use several different compression schemes the freeware stuffit expander will unstuff all of them versions of stuffit earlier than stuffit stuffit classic unstuffit and stuffit deluxe and will not unstuff the increasing number of files stuffed by stuffit you need to get a more recent version of stuffit or stuffit expander stuffit lite and deluxe consistently makes smaller archives than any other macintosh compression utility to allow maximum space for files on the various ftp sites and to keep net bandwidth down please compress all files you send to anonymous ftp sites with stuffit uutool maccompress and suntar handle the popular unix formats of uuencode uu compress z and tar tar respectively the unix versions are often more robust than the mac products so use them instead when that s an option translators that allow stuffit lite to expand uuencoded and tar files are also available by anonymous ftp macutil is dik winter s package of unix utilities to decompress and debinhex files on a workstation before downloading them to a mac since unix stores files differently than does the mac macutil creates macbinary bin files which should be automatically converted on download it can t decompress everything in particular it can t decompress the new stuffit archives however if you need only one or two files out of an archive for instance if you want to read the readme to find out if a program does what you need it to do before you download all of it macutil is indispensable it can be found at sumex aim in the info mac unix directory a few notes on the compression formats bin these are macbinary files always use a binary file transfer protocol when transferring them never ascii or text most files on the net are stored as hqx instead only rascal stores most of its files in bin format most communications programs such as zterm and mackermit are capable of translating macbinary files on the fly as they download if they know in advance they ll be downloading macbinary files image this format is normally used only for system software so that on line users can download files that can easily be converted into exact copies of the installer floppies instead of using diskcopy to restore the images to floppies you can use steve christensen s freeware utility mountimage to treat the images on your hard disk as actual floppies inserted in a floppy drive mountimage has a reputation for being buggy so you should have some blank floppies and a copy of diskcopy handy just in case sea x x sea files don t merit a position in the above table because they re self extracting they may have been created with compact pro stuffit or even diskdoubler but all should be capable of decompressing themselves when double clicked for some unknown reason alysis has chosen not to use this industry standard designation for self extracting archives created with their payware products superdisk and more disk space instead they append either x or x to self extracting archives how can i get binhex stuffit etc by far the easiest way to get these programs is to ask a human being to copy them onto a floppy for you if you re at a university there s absolutely no excuse for not finding someone to give you a copy and if you re anywhere less remote than mcmurdo sound chances are very good that someone at a computer center dealership or user group can provide you with a copy of stuffit once you have stuffit any version you don t need binhex if you re such a computer geek that the thought of actually asking a living breathing human being instead of a computer terminal for something turns you into a quivering mass of protoplasmic jelly you can probably download a working copy of stuffit from a local bulletin board system if you have religious objections to software gotten by any means other than anonymous ftp then i suppose i ll mention that you can in fact ftp a working copy of stuffit though this is by far the hardest way to get it ftp to wuarchive wustl edu and login type the word binary hit return type cd mirrors rascal ics utexas edu compression and hit return then get stuffit expander sea bin and hit return of course it s always possible that by the time you read this stuffit expander will have been updated and the name changed so if this fails look for something similar if you ve ftp d straight onto your mac you should now have a self extracting archive which will produce a working copy of stuffit expander when double clicked if you ve ftp d to your mainframe or unix account first you still need to use a modem program to download it to your mac just make sure that the mac is receiving in macbinary mode and the mainframe is sending in binary mode if you need more details on the last step consult the faq list for comp sys mac comm and the manuals for both your mainframe and macintosh telecommunications software how can i get binhex stuffit etc from a pc you can t there is absolutely no way to get an executable macintosh file from an ftp site onto a pc and then onto your mac without some software obtained by means other than anonymous ftp you must beg borrow or steal the necessary software such as binhex or stuffit lite from another person i realize this may terrify those among you who haven t left your parents basement since you got an apple ii in but eventually you re going to need to link up with some human being other than your mother though i suppose if you re this much of a nerd you could send your mother out to get it for you while you re gathering your nerves for a venture into the strange and terrifying world of daylight please don t bother the net by asking this question again there simply is no way to move executable macintosh programs from a pc or other non macintosh computer onto a mac without software that is not bundled with most macs troubleshooting what to do before posting when things go wrong while the various faq lists cover a lot of specific problems there are far more problems that aren t covered here these are a few basic techniques you should follow before asking for help you should probably also perform the ten step preventative maintenance routine described in section four especially rebuilding the desktop and resizing the system heap following these steps may or may not solve your problem but it will at least make it easier for others to recommend solutions to you identify the problem microsoft word is crashing doesn t say much what were you doing when it crashed can you repeat the actions that lead to the crash the more information you provide about the actions preceding the crash the more likely it is someone can help you the more precisely you ve identified the problem and the actions preceding it step the easier it will be to tell if the following steps fix the problem for example sometimes quarkxpress crashes with a coprocessor not installed error is not nearly as helpful as quarkxpress crashes when i link two text boxes on a master page when copies of those text boxes already contain text the former will leave you wondering whether the bug remains after a given step the latter lets you go right to the problem and see if it s still there or not read the read me file many companies include a list of known incompatibilities and bugs in their read me files often these aren t documented in the manual read any read me files to see if any of the problems sound familiar check for viruses run disinfectant or another anti viral across your disk virus infections are rarer than most people think but they do occur and they do cause all sorts of weird problems when they do reinstall the application and all its support files for half a dozen reasons external magnetic fields improperly written software the alignment of the planets a file on a disk may not contain the data it s supposed to contain this can cause all types of unexplained unusual behavior restoring from original masters will normally fix this reinstall the system software bits are even more likely to get twiddled in the system file than in the application and the effects can be just as disastrous see question for a detailed procedure for performing a clean reinstall if the problem continues to occur after you ve taken these steps chances are you ve found either a conflict between your application and some other software or a genuine bug in the program so it s time to isolate the problem you need to find the minimal system on which the problem will assert itself here are the basic steps of isolating the cause of a system or application crash a run only one application at a time occasionally applications do conflict with each other if the problem does not manifest itself without other applications running simultaneously you can begin launching other applications until you find the one that causes the crash b if you re running system turn off multifinder if you re running system allot as much memory to the application as you can afford sometimes programs just need more memory especially when performing complicated operations c if you re running system turn off virtual memory and bit addressing there s still an awful lot of system hostile software out there including some from companies that really have no excuse can you say microsoft word boys and girls i knew you could some of this software only expresses its incompatibilities when certain uncommon actions are taken d boot from a virgin system floppy if the problem disappears you likely have an init conflict you need to progressively remove extensions until the problem vanishes use a little common sense when choosing the first extensions to remove if the problem occurs when you try to open a file remove any inits that mess with the standard file open procedure such as super boomerang first if the problem remains after the obvious candidates have been eliminated either remove the remaining extensions one at a time or if you have a lot of them perform a binary search by removing half of the extensions at a time once the problem disappears add half of the most recently removed set back continue until you ve narrowed the conflict down to one extension when you think you ve found the offending init restart with only that init enabled just to make sure that it and it alone is indeed causing the problem contact technical support by now you should have a very good idea of when where and why the conflict occurs if a tech support number is available for the software call it if you re lucky the company will have a work around or fix available if not perhaps they ll at least add the bug to their database of problems to be fixed in the next release preventive maintenance you wouldn t drive your car miles without giving it a tune up a computer is no different regular tune ups avoid a lot of problems although there are mac mechanics who ll be happy to charge you or more for the equivalent of an oil change there s no reason you can t change it yourself the following nine step program should be performed about every three months trash unneeded files many of the operations that follow will run faster and more smoothly the more free disk space there is to work with so spend a little time cleaning up your hard disk if you re at all like me you ll find several megabytes worth of preferences files for applications you no longer have archives of software you ve dearchived shareware you tried out and didn t like announcements for events that have come and gone and many other files you no longer need if you re running system you may also have several more megabytes in your trash can alone throw them away and empty the trash rethink your extensions some macintoshes attract inits like a new suit attracts rain seriously consider whether you actually need every extension in your collection if you don t use the functionality of an extension at least every fifth time you boot up you re probably better off not storing it in your system folder where it only takes up memory destabilizes your system and slows down every startup for instance if you only read pc disks once a month there s no need to keep accesspc loaded all the time cutting back on your extension habit can really help avoid crashes rebuild the desktop the desktop file database holds all the information necessary to associate each file with the application that created it it lets the system know what application should be launched when you open a given file and what icons it should display where depending on its size each application has one or more representatives in the desktop file as applications and files move on and off your hard disk the desktop file can be become bloated and corrupt think of it as a congress for your mac every so often it s necessary to throw the bums out and start with a clean slate fortunately it s easier to rebuild the desktop than to defeat an incumbent one warning rebuilding the desktop will erase all comments you ve stored in the get info boxes under system maurice volaski s freeware init commentkeeper will retain those comments across a rebuild commentkeeper also works with system but only if apple s desktop manager extension is also installed to rebuild the desktop restart your mac and as your extensions finish loading depress the command and option keys you ll be presented with a dialog box asking if you want to rebuild the desktop and warning you that this could take a few minutes click ok it will take more than a few minutes the more files you have the longer it will take if you re running system you may want to turn off multifinder before trying to rebuild the desktop if you re experiencing definite problems and not just doing preventive maintenance you may want to use fifth generation s freeware init desktop reset desktop reset completely deletes the desktop file before rebuilding it thus eliminating possibly corrupt data structures zap the pram and reset the clock all macs from the original k thin mac to the quadra contain a small amount of battery powered ram to hold certain settings that properly move with the cpu rather than with the disk such as which disk to boot from unfortunately this parameter ram can become corrupted and cause unexplained crashes to reset it under system hold down the command option p and r keys while restarting your mac under system hold down the command option and shift keys while selecting the control panel from the apple menu click yes when asked if you want to zap the parameter ram since you ve erased almost all the settings in the general control panel you should now reset them to whatever you want the one setting that zapping the pram does not erase is the date and time but since the internal clock in the macintosh is notoriously inaccurate you ll probably want to take this opportunity to reset it anyway resize the system heap even after rethinking their extensions as per step two most people still have at least half a row of icons march across the bottom of their screen every time they restart all these extensions and most applications too need space in a section of memory called the system heap if the system heap isn t big enough to comfortably accommodate all the programs that want a piece of it they all start playing king of the mountain on the system heap knocking each other off to get bigger pieces for themselves and trying to climb back on after they get knocked off all this fighting amongst the programs severely degrades system performance and almost inevitably crashes the mac if you re using system your macintosh will automatically resize the system heap as necessary but if you re running system it s important to set your system heap size large enough to manage all your extensions and applications by default this size is set to k way too small for most macs with any extensions at all the system heap size is stored in the normally non editable boot blocks of every system disk bill steinberg s freeware utility bootman not only lets you resize your system heap but even checks how much memory your heap is already using so it can tell how much needs to be allocated if you re running system get bootman use it and be amazed at how infrequently your macintosh crashes reinstall the system software system files can become corrupt and fragmented especially if you ve stored lots of fonts and desk accessories inside them merely updating the system software will often not fix system file corruption i recommend doing a clean reinstall here s how boot from the installer floppy of your system disks copy any non standard fonts and desk accessories out of your system file into a temporary suitcase trash the system file on your hard disk also trash the finder multifinder da handler and all other standard apple extensions like control panel and chooser these will all be replaced in the new installation if you re running or installing system move everything in the extensions control panels and preferences folders into the top level of the system folder rename the system folder any name other than system folder is fine double click the installer script on your system disk then choose customize select the appropriate software for your model mac and printer you could do an easy install instead but that will only add a lot of extensions and code you don t need that waste your memory and disk space once installation is finished move everything from the temporary folder you created in step into the new system folder if you re asked if you want to replace anything you forgot to take something out in step you ll need to replace things individually until you find the duplicate piece reinstall any fonts or da s you removed in step reboot you should now have a clean defragmented system file that takes up less memory and disk space and a much more stable system overall disk utilities much like system files hard disks have data structures that occasionally become corrupted affecting performance and even causing data loss apple includes disk first aid a simple utility for detecting and repairing hard disk problems with its system disks it s also available for anonymous ftp from ftp apple com in the directory dts mac sys soft hdsc even if you have an earlier version you should get the latest version from ftp apple com and run it on all your hard disks several companies have released payware disk utilities that detect and repair considerably more problems than disk first aid though interestingly none of them detect and repair everything that disk first aid does the three most effective for general work are central point s mactools deluxe fifth generation s public utilites and symantec s norton utilities for the macintosh a department or work group should have all of these as well as disk first aid since none of them fix everything the others do for individuals mactools street is about half the price of norton street or public utilities street so features and ease of use being roughly equal i recommend mactools all of these products occasionally encounter problems they can t fix when that happens it s time to backup and reformat backing up this is one part of preventative maintenance that should be done a lot more often than every three months the simplest back up is to merely copy all the files on your hard disk onto floppies or other removable media if you keep your data files separate from your application and support files then it s easy to only back up those folders which change frequently nonetheless every three months you should do a complete backup of your hard disk a number of programs are available to make backing up easier apple included a very basic full backup application with system with the performas apple ships a new apple backup utility that can backup the entire disk or just the system folder onto floppies the previously mentioned norton utilities for the mac and mactools deluxe include more powerful floppy backup utilities that incorporate compression and incremental backups finally if you re lucky enough to have a tape drive network server or removable media device to use for backups you should check out the more powerful payware utilities redux street doesn t support tape drives and diskfit pro street there are no freely available backup utilities other than the old hd backup from system disk defragmentation as disks fill up it gets harder and harder to find enough free space in the same place to write large files therefore the operating system will often split larger files into pieces to be stored in different places on your hard disk as files become more and more fragmented performance can degrade there are several ways to defragment a hard disk the most tedious but cheapest method is to backup all your files erase the hard disk and you might as well reformat while you re at it see question and restore all the files a number of payware utilities including norton utilities for the mac and mac tools deluxe can defragment a disk in place i e without erasing it although the ads for all these products brag about their safety once you ve bought the software and opened the shrink wrap they all warn you to back up your disk before defragmenting it in case something does go wrong there are no freeware or shareware disk defragmenters so please don t annoy the net by asking for one reformat your hard disk just as a floppy disk needs to be initialized before use so a hard disk must be formatted before it can hold data you don t need to reformat every three months but when your system is crashing no matter what you try reformatting is the ultimate means of wiping the slate clean reformatting your hard disk may even gain you a few extra megabytes of space not all hard disks are created equal some can hold more data than others to facilitate mass production and advertising without a lot of asterisks megabytes is the average formatted capacity your mileage may vary apple often formats drives to the lowest common denominator of drive capacity when you reformat there s no reason at all not to reclaim whatever unused space apple s left on your disk unlike floppies hard disks need a special program to initialize them most hard disks come with formatting software apple s disks and system software ship with hd sc setup a minimal disk formatter which will format apple brand hard drives only most other manufacturers ship appropriate formatting software with their hard drives normally this will be all you need to reformat your hard disk a number of general purpose formatters are also available which go beyond the bundled software to include features like encryption password protection multiple partitioning faster disk access system compatibility and even compression two of the best are the payware drive and hard disk toolkit personal edition street for either while there are one or two freeware formatters available none are likely to be superior to the ones bundled with your hard disk powerbook users should be sure to turn off sleep and processor cycling before reformatting their hard drives no matter what software they use otherwise disk corruption crashes and data losses are a very good possibility elliotte rusty harold department of mathematics elharo shiva njit edu new jersey institute of technology erh tesla njit edu newark nj
comp.sys.mac.hardware	file sharing magneto opticals hi my co worker has just attached a magneto optical drive to his mac works great for him however he tried to turn on file sharing but it wouldn t work had some message about not all volumes are shareable so has anyone had success in sharing mos if so please tell me how jann vanover atc boeing com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple monitor woes i have a month old that seems to have acquired the jitters of late the apple color monitor that i m using with an lciii sort of jiggles to the left and right all the time now i have attempted to relocate the monitor to make sure the problem isn t interference from something else but the problem seems to remain no matter what i do has anybody encountered this problem thanks jeff budzinski jeffreyb netcom com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cache card for iisi in a previous article glalonde watson ibm com says as of last week mac s place had the applied engineering quicksilver card k cache one pds slot socket for fpu on sale for without fpu regular price is no idea if this is still going on but i can get the phone no if anyone is interested i found their ad in macuser can some people with cache cards please post speedometer numbers they get with the cards i have only one report which seems to indicate that a k cache card gives you only about a speedup access to memory takes longer when you have a cache card and get a miss thus a small cache card of k may be worth i don t know what kind of numbers k cards get you also i found it interesting that you can disable the cache cards via software read about it in the mac iisi tech notes from ftp apple com so is a good deal or not i still don t know i would say that is not a good deal in june s macworld river formerly maya computer advertised a daystar mhz powercache with for can you believe it i know prices would be falling but geeze thought you might be interested chuck chuck williams cs intern pacific northwest laboratories da cleveland freenet edu cg williams ccmail pnl gov
comp.sys.mac.hardware	virus centris wierdness i ve been getting seemingly random disk accesses on my centris with a quantum lps but this is not the regular recalibration it has been doing since i got it this is sometimes short sometimes long accesses that sound like there is some read writing going on i have sam and disinfectant but neither picks up anything any ideas jason titus ecosys drdr virginia edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitor jitter several weeks ago i described a problem with my apple high resolution monitor and promised to summarize replies received by e mail to recapitulate occasionally every two or three hours or so my monitor momentarily loses sync the entire raster image bounces down about an eighth of an inch or so then rights itself this usually happens right after i close a large window highlight a large area or do something that radically alters the image on the screen sometimes though it happens with no provocation whatsoever i have received a bewildering range of replies at one extreme was a man clearly quite knowledgable about monitors who said that the problem was that the monitor s power supply simply couldn t always keep up with sudden changes of the raster image the rapid change from a largely light screen to a largely dark one overtaxed the monitor s power supply there was no fix available he said because nothing was really wrong i guess he meant that the flaw was so fundamental that it had to be endured this seemed quite persuasive and i would have been tempted to adopt an attitude of stoicism except for a reply from a monitor owner who discovered that this very problem is documented in the apple service technical procedures volume under the heading jitter correction the section describes a fix involving the replacement of a capacitor the adjustment of a potentiometer or failing that the swap of a circuit board i would be grateful for a discussion among those who have had experience with this sort of thing
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re new duo dock info in article apr pasteur berkeley edu mohr cory berkeley edu gordon mohr writes in article baa e c mizzou missouri edu c mizzou missouri edu writes why no it is a little known fact that no macs have a cpu they are all connected via a cellular network to the cray supercomputer in apple s garage that s right the same one where steve steve built the apple shannon silly you don t you know the only division at apple allowed to use the cray is the legal department gordon um they ve sold the cray they realised that spending two years on numbercrunching the finite stress analysis figures for the complex injection molded cases was not the way to go and was holding up development work especially when the first fea model for the portable left out the battery cover and it had to be redone that s why the portable was about three years late designing metal cases is easier they re managing with the calculator da now it can compute correctly any other suggestions l
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re sony reliability was re musings on pb durability in article apr waikato ac nz ldo waikato ac nz lawrence d oliveiro waikato university writes in article apr csus edu altheimm nextnet csus edu murray altheim writes that was my point sony did manufacture the powerbook under license from apple and it actually works yup i bought the darn thing cause it was sturdy i carry it around in an unpadded unless you consider all the papers and files and folders bookbag shoulder strap little job from eddie bauer i ve travelled cross country several times with walkman discman and tapes books and computer all piled in their my pb works happily and i m typing on it right now it has a global village teleport v internal send receive fax modem and i just love it unfortunately i have seen a new duo that a friend bought as a primary computer i have a mac iisi and se as primary home computers and quadra and iici at work in the lab and while amazed at the lightness of it i was kinda shocked at the flimsiness of the screen i m sure it d break real easy sorry but other than my trinitron everything else i ve ever bought from sony has failed why did i keep trying because i m tupid aw c mon i ve got a sony vcr a sony tv both must be over two years old by now a sony camcorder five months old and of course an apple rgb monitor with a sony tube that i m never going to part with and the cd i drive in my month old centris is in fact a sony maybe it s a question of personal compatibility maybe your body puts out the wrong polarity of static electricity or something geez we are a sony familly our neighbor works for zeinth and hates it always asks why we didn t buy zeinth products nice guy nevertheless we still have two working sony color trinitrons from and older one is on it s second picture tube but both work now they re relegated to the old bit atari computer and atari game machinces as well as our not that old younger sister s nintendo game machine sony doesn t make tv s like they used to though the newer mexican assembly line tv s are not that reliable or sharp anymore dad also just got a direct view sony god the thing weighs a ton still where would we be without trinitrons cd players or the veritable walkman shishin squish yamada squish endor harvard edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	price cuts i heard that the magic date for price drop in a number of apple products will be june th can anyone second this rumour a motion picture major at the brooks institute of photography ca santa barbara and a foreign student from kuala lumpur malaysia the mind is the forerunner of all states
comp.sys.mac.hardware	price drops i heard that there will be an apple price drop coming june th can anyone second this rumour a motion picture major at the brooks institute of photography ca santa barbara and a foreign student from kuala lumpur malaysia the mind is the forerunner of all states
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re selling of powerbook s in article apr csus edu altheimm nextnet csus edu murray altheim writes in article r aaainnt d senator bedfellow mit edu cam athena mit edu daniel cameron daly writes i have a pb that i might be selling soon to upgrade to a duo before graduation to take advantage of the educational discount to those who have recently bought or sold a pb what kind of price did you get info on any config of pb appreciated thanks cam daly cam several months ago i bought a pb with external floppy appletalk remote access a kensington case and ac adapter with complete documentation and in almost new condition used for us i considered it a very good buy and am very cosy with my little baby now murray put me down for a pb with ext floppy appletalk remote acces ac adapter and fresh out of box was used but buyer switched to on arrival and sold unopened box purchased last october for later i bought a used powerport v bps internal fax modem for something like i m using right now works great no real complaints i love my portable system got a color home setup also mac ii reasoning was that matlab programs at school and other simulations of dynamic control systems sometimes took hours or overnight to run tying up my mac ii i got the pb with fast modem to do light work and on the run stuff i figured i d give it to my little sister next year when she goes to college it s running system now without any problems also i sometimes do dec terminal emulations with matlab on our university s vax vms nice thing that it benchmarks itself as an average of times faster than a mac iifx so the pb just does graphical output and terminal emulation not too hard at all for it it was a fabulous setup weeee by the way all matlab software was on class accounts i was also the ta for a class that used simulab simulink we had site license and take home then destroy later site release licenses no pirating there incase you re wondering great program just like to add whatever future system you get you can almost never get enuff memory buy it while it s cheap that is buy it when you get the computer since it s usually cheaper than upgrading i always run out of disk space but i have a syquest on the mac iisi so i never worried about space before got several carts shishin squish yamada squish endor harvard edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ouadra cache problems hi mac fans i have some problems with my new quadra several programs mathematica afterdark mandelbrot module causes a systemcrash if the cache is active do anyone have a list of programs which are compatible and which are not do anyone have some hints for the use of the quadras perfomence thanks joerg
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how fast is m ll a apple fpu what is the maximum rate of the fpu that apple sells directly apple part no m ll a the apple literature labels the fpu for classics and lc iii s so i assume it will do at least mhz my question is can i put it in a performa mhz the apple price is cheap at compared to from mail order houses any one know the answer to this one
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what s needed for cd rom on a mac does system x support all scsi cd rom drives or are specific drivers needed for each different make model specifically i m looking at getting a nec cdr mainly because they are cheap i know its a slow drive but multimedia isn t my interest i mainly want it for extracting software distributed on cd will i need to get a specific driver to use this drive on a mac thanks charles charles carlson umcarls ccu umanitoba ca warning this article contains flammable material that may ignite without prior notice read only with protective eyeware
comp.sys.mac.hardware	video cards for duodock i just got a duo and a duodock and am quite happy with it all except i need to use the dock with a two page grey scale monitor apple b two page color monitor apple what is net wisdom on which vendor video card would be preferable thanks in advance jon jon sticklen tele ai kbs lab comp sci dept fax a wells hall office in a eng bldg michigan state university east lansing mi home tele
comp.sys.mac.hardware	x x how do they compare also amiga comparisson david a schnider bmug org wrote the real question here in my opinion is what motorola processors running sy stem on a mac are comparable to what intel processors running windows on a pc i stuff deleted david even better than that how does a based amiga perform in daily tasks compared to my based iici answer except in a very few cases i get my butt kicked by the amiga sure there are other considerations but it goes to show you how proper design from the beginning in hardware and software can give you great returns as well as showing you that if you don t have a marketing department to speak of no one will care how good your system is i ve had the same experience actually i love the mac interface and any number of the features but am sorely dissapointed with the speed i use macs daily and am a moc consultant for osu statistics department i m familiar with almost every model out there and my experience is that both the amiga and the atari st simply blow the mac out of the water in terms of performance at this time i would in general say that the other advantages of the mac outweigh the advantages of the amiga or the st and falcon but i really wish apple would get their heads together on speed they could take a real lesson in muli tasking from the amiga os or the multitos in the atari falcons too i m still happy with my ci but i don t understand why the performance is so bad comparatively they could have done multi tasking properly they could have done everthing else better but apple didn t of course dos and windows are nothin to write home about either i just hope that someone comes out with a machine that does everything well someday if i had my choice i would go with mac in most aspects but add the speed and superior multi tasking of the other platforms as for the original topic trying to compare just the chip in a machine seems almost worthless a fast with a wiz bang graphics accelerator will be faster in productivity for many applications than a even a stock quadra add a graphics accelerator to a and you really fly of course add one the the quadra and then you re blowing the away etc oh well y all got worth for the price of i think mine was only worth david butler dhbutler magnus acs ohio state edu this is not a novel to be tossed away lightly it should be thrown with great force dorothy parker
comp.sys.mac.hardware	radius pivot le card with bit adressing hello out there my mac iisi runs a radius pivot le monitor with the pds card as i wanted to try to switch to bit adressing i couldn t startup my mac anymore what is the trick to zap the pram so i won t have to take out the battery next time is there any trick that could allow me to switch to bit what does bit adressing bring to me as an user faster work any chance to have more than mb of adressable memory with bit adressing thank you a lot for your answers via mail or reply ralph schwegler university of st gallen switzerland
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac lc does anyone know it the macintosh lc has pin the pin that enables better flow control i know the lc doesn t have it but what about i have had conflicting reports so far please help thank you btw do you use reznova s novalink yes e mail me via uci v c net amiga dennis t cheung the dtc tm corporation of america america online dtc internet dtc mlinknet hotcity com disclaimer you never read this message this message doesn t exist
comp.sys.mac.hardware	accelerator for lc ii info needed hi folks subject line says it all which accelerators can you recommend for a mac lc ii sorry if this a faq cheers steffo
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac ii vi to be discontinued good buy a local dealer is offering mac ii vi machines equipped with kodak multi session compatible cd rom drives for what seems like an attractive price i ve used many other models up to a ii ci but this would be the first i could have my own mac is it safe to buy an about to be discontinued model such as this i d like to yank the cd rom drive out put it in a housing and share it with my pc is this feasible the only info i have on the ii vi is that it is relatively slow mhz has an chip with a math coprocessor i want to add a non apple portrait monitor and use this machine for hypercard stack design is this a good buy or would i be wasting my money i would appreciate some advice thanks robert matthews grfg twnmoe bitnet edu tw taiwan
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re the mhz iisi re methods for attaching heat sink to processor go to radio shack and buy a tube of heat sink compound it comes in a little blue and white tube with a black screw on cap at radio shack it s catalog number it s a mix of silicone and zinc oxide and conducts heat very well plus it s tacky usually you would smear a bit between the chip and the sink and then bolt or clamp the sink down but if you don t move your mac gravity and the stickiness of the goo should be more than suffcient to hold things in place just make sure you remember it s in there in case you tilt your mac and jar it hard enough to shake it loose you wouldn t want a loose piece of metal running around inside your mac
comp.sys.mac.hardware	important se users only we are having problems with a bunch of se s in one of our labs the fault is that the machines either bomb or freeze when attempting to write to their internal floppies the internal floppies have been tested on their own and are fine which means that it is a main board fault the machines all come from the same batch the date code on the back of the machines is december do you own a machine from this batch has any user had experience with this fault was it a warranty repair any feedback would be appreciated and i will post the results to the net bill mail william a russell computing science dept tel x glasgow univ lilybank gardens glasgow g qq uk arpa bill dcs glasgow ac uk nsfnet relay ac uk usenet bill dcs glasgow uucp janet bill uk ac glasgow dcs usebangnet mcsun ukc dcs glasgow ac uk bill
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cache card for iisi in article r nb h usenet ins cwru edu da cleveland freenet edu charles g williams writes so is a good deal or not i still don t know i would say that is not a good deal in june s macworld river formerly maya computer advertised a daystar mhz powercache with for can you believe it i know prices would be falling but geeze actually the is for the mhz powercard not the universal powercache the mhz universal powercache with fpu and adaptor can be had for about still not a bad deal i believe the powercard is one generation older than the universal powercache and the one primary difference is that the powercard is machine specific while the powercache can fit into many macs with the proper adaptor both cards are based i m not sure if the hardware or software with the powercard is otherwise different from the powercache perhaps someone could enlighten me i would also add that i called river computer the other night and these powercards were going very fast rich spiegel mission analysis group johns hopkins road laurel md x
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re stereo sound problem on mac games in article ingemar isy ingemar ragnemalm ingemar isy liu se writes enter game developers the sound driver and current sound manager are inconveniently lame for making games the sound driver is pretty ok since it s fast sound manager used by the book is useless disposing of sound channels as soon as sound has completed is out of the question for games with smooth animation it s too slow why would you dispose a channel if you are going to play more sounds soon if you are trying to write a game you shouldn t be using sndplay instead make a channel and use buffercmds to play sounds on it it works great you can add callbacks to the channel also to let you know when the channel is getting empty before it gets empty the sound driver is so much snappier than sound manager unfortunately system supports it poorly making programs crash occasionally the moral of the story is to developers don t cheat well i want my code to work on old systems too i don t know about sys but at least on there are bugs in the sound manager that causes channels to hang with no error message this happends when i keep a channel open for long periods necessary for performance and play many sounds stopping sounds halfway callbacks seems not to be reliable then only way i can safely tell if a sound has stopped playing is to inspect private variables in the channel qhead i think it was and the only way i have found to tell if a channel is hung is to inspect an undocumented flag and modify it callbacks are very reliable i found them reliable even under system i was doing continuous background sound with interrupting sound effects on system with the im v documentation you probably were cancelling your callback commands out of your channels of course you didn t get called in general if you have problems with sounds working when you play one per channel and then close the channel with the related slowdown but then when you play more than one you don t work then you are adding more than one synthesizer to a channel possibly the same one multiple times this might be because you are calling sndplay on a preexisting channel with a sound resource which adds the sampled sound synthesizer to the channel first thing before it plays most sampled sounds have this command at the start of them you need to resedit the sound and remove that command then when you create your channel specify the sampled sound synthesizer to be the channel s synth then you can use asynch sndplay s all you want you ll probably want to switch to buffercmd s since you are going to have to use snddocommand anyway to add callbacks now before you go ahead and tell me i am full of it and the sound manager doesn t work for games remember spectre uses it and it works great if spectre can spare the cpu time you can too one little disclaimer there are some out there who say the sound manager in the iisi can t be made to work right i m not sure either way but i know for sure that you can make your sounds work correctly on every other machine using the sound manager steve
comp.sys.mac.hardware	running mathematica on a pb here s another question by a hesitant powerbook purchaser i want to be able to run mathematica and would like to hear some comments from the gallery about this how much slower does the program run on a machine without an fpu namely a pb versus a machine with an fpu namely a pb what types of calculations get bogged down the most i primarily due moderately simple algebra integrals which can be dealt with analytically and plotting including d plots i don t do a lot of numerical work would a pb with a lot of memory and the very nice video port be sufficient or should i really try to get an fpu for this type of work is a pb with mb faster than a pb with or mb all comments appreciated please respond by email ross sbphy physics ucsb edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris to mhz or mhz i just put a mhz cpu into my centris now i have a math coprocessor but is it possible to speed up the centris to run at either mhz or mhz i didn t see any oscillators on the motherboard like the ones on the iisi s motherboard where is the oscillator for the centris any ideas thanks saiid paryavi paryavi matt ksu ksu edu saiid cis ksu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	q ehman monitor service i recall that ehman died can anyone suggest what the problem is when the picture jumps about an inch any direction two page monchrome monitor connected to newlife accelerator and video board in an se at the end of the work day several hours with power on the picture will occasionally jitter a couple of times and then remain calm for a few minutes then it does more shaking the environment around the computer appears to be stable nothing newly introduced near the computer any ideas please e mail to carsona sfu ca or reply here also has anyone used ehman two page with powerbook video what was required just a cable adapter thanks for any help dale carsona sfu ca ps i think the monitor is a zenith mechanism
comp.sys.mac.hardware	phonenet questions my school is settin g up a new network with bothe macs and apple ii s i m used to ethernet and don t know mu ch about localtalk two things first in macwherehouse bthe y have poweruser network connectors and the caption leads you to bel ieve that you can plug them into the phone lines in the building and have them work is this true i ve seen it done by running sep erate phone cords but never with real lines second if that does work could you use a modem hooked up to that same line while the network was active help would be greatly appriciated btw running seperate phone line is out of the question the network wil verry spread o ericronin bringing a kind word and a helpful spirit wherever we can we are the association a multi line macintosh bbs in grand blanc michigan echoes from fido internet familynet icdmnet k plus gb files at hst v bis testify eric cronin internet eric cronin f n z fidonet org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they be kept on hours a day yes i know computers and harddisk drives should be always on but what about monitors they generate a lots of heat should i or shouldn t i keep them on hours a day any advice thanks take care paul paul nevai nevai mps ohio state edu dept math ohio state university office columbus ohio u s a math dept fax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	carrying case for centris does anyone know if there is a carrying case for the centris thanks for any info saiid paryavi paryavi matt ksu ksu edu saiid cis ksu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day in article r jl igh function mps ohio state edu pali osu edu writes yes i know computers and harddisk drives should be always on but what about monitors they generate a lots of heat should i or shouldn t i keep them on hours a day any advice thanks take care paul paul nevai nevai mps ohio state edu dept math ohio state university office columbus ohio u s a math dept fax i keep my apple trinitron and iisi on for months at a time doesn t seem to cause any problems tttttt eeeee vv vv eeeee tt ee vv vv ee tt eeee vv vv eeee steve liu tt ee vvv ee drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu tt eeeee v eeeee drlovemd jhuvms hcf jhu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	datadesk keyboard centris fix i posted on here about a problem with a datadesk e keyboard that failed to rebuild the desktop with the command option keys pressed or to shut off inits when pressing the shift key after absolutely no help from datadesk i called macconnection tech support they tried it out on their centris and had the same problem they immediately offered to get a new keyboard try it on their centris and ship it to me overnight if it worked i could send them my keyboard back after i got the one that worked this is from a guy in tech support named dave it turns out that the keyboard will wrok if you wait for the smiley face before pressing the shift key to disable inits and wait for the inits to start appearing to rebuild the desktop by pressing command option i really like this keyboard so i was glad to be able to keep it on the other hand datadesks tech support sucks while macconnection s is great terry
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re duo price reduction cam athena mit edu daniel cameron daly writes someone mentioned a while ago that the duos were scheduled for a price reduction according to newsbytes is this definite does anyone know when it will take effect and what is newsbytes thanks hi i posted that article unfortunately i haven t seen any further notice of it they advertize cheaper duo s at the u here for next wek according to the articel though the price cut had to be effective the same day newsbyte is a group of news like clarinet peter
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re tempest and cyclone info needed if anyone has any information about the upcoming new computers cyclone and tempest i am in need of some info anything would be greatly appreciated shawn breedsa wkuvx bitnet according to macweek of the cyclone will come in the same metal minitower case as the quadra while the tempest will share the low slung case of the centris apple will offer a miniature video camera that can be mounted above the user s monitor or moved about on the end of its cable to take pictures of objects or documents taking advantage of the bit digital signal processor dsp built into the systems logic boards the camera will be able to put an image measuring by pixels with gray levels on the screen users will be able to install supplementary lenses that can record detail as fine as the wire bonds on an integrated circuit the camera is expected to cost between and the systems will ship with all the software needed to put apple s casper voice recognition technology to work users apparently will have to purchase an operational high fidelity microphone the two models will talk as well as listen a new system facility called the speech manager will convert text strings sent by applications to phonemes and then pass them to a speech synthesizer the cyclone will include a mhz three nubus slots and support for up to mb of ram the tempest will use a mhz lc lacking an fpu and hold up to mb of ram it will have a single slot that will require a nubus adapter and have room for only inch nubus cards users will be able to update the tempest s process but not the cyclone s for more get the issue of macweek
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help fdhd failure in iicx repost due to net problems hi i have problems with the fdhd on a iicx that ekg reports is rom revision i had reports that this mac was having trouble formatting disks and by the time i got to it the fdhd just would not respond although all other functions were fine i checked the voltages on the db external drive connector and pin showed no volts with and giving volts unloaded the power supply is an astec and i sent it away for repair with the power supply reinstalled i now get the following error with the internal fdhd connected the mac boots fine but on completion of boot cycle an alert displays the disk is unreadable do you want to eject it for every combination of response the alert reappears within approx seconds and this error is continuous the fdhd does spin but there is no head seeking and the fdhd is incapable of ejecting the disk this error sequence occurs regardless of whether there is a floppy in the drive or not pin on the db external connector shows v pins and show v with the internal fdhd disconnected the mac boots fine and works great macekg reports no errors the db external connector now shows no voltage on pin but pins and show v now the internal fdhd may be fubar but i have an apple k external drive that gives exactly the same symptoms as the internal drive when connected to either the external db or the internal connector at j after suitable surgery to the external drive the voltages at j with the internal fdhd disconnected are as follows pin volts pin volts this machine has a swim which i don t think ekg tests i have tested all diodes and pica fuses and can find no problems does anybody have any ideas best wishes woody paul woodman praxis plc the software engineering company of touche ross manvers street bath ba px uk tel xt fax woody praxis co uk
comp.sys.mac.hardware	number for applied engineering anyone have a phone number for applied engineering so i can give them a call steven langlois slang bnr ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how to change default paper cassette on lw pro hi i want to change the default paper cassette on our laserwriter pro from the sheet cassette to the sheet cassette right now we all have to change it manually on the print dialog each time we print if we forget the document is printed on the letterhead paper we have in the sheet cassette any ideas michael michael p hecht internet michael hecht mac sas com sas institute inc cary nc usa applelink sas hecht
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re the mhz iisi in article c ufzp btp willamette edu thomas a herzog therzog willamette edu writes so i finally decided to risk this upgrade faq in hand i ve gathered the pieces together the only problem is that i haven t been able to find anyone who s even heard of thermal tape glue which is what the faq recommends for attaching the heat sink i am just tempted to use duct tape here anyone hae any ideas for me for attaching the heat sink to the processor much thanks just use a thin film of epoxy that s what i did epoxy conducts heat fairly well and my heat sink gets warm to prove it i looked for the stuff myself my local ee jocks said to use epoxy have fun ken
comp.sys.mac.hardware	fast modems slow macs 
comp.sys.mac.hardware	wanted audiomedia card wanted digidesgn audiomedia card for the mac email if you have one for sale thanks ee fcs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day in article c uhhi hdg austin ibm com kelleyb austin ibm com kelley boylan wrote yes i know computers and harddisk drives should be always on but what about monitors they generate a lots of heat should i or shouldn t i keep them on hours a day any advice thanks take care paul there has been no empirical evidence to support the first statement true there is a power surge at startup that has the potential to do damage but the internal power supply is well protected i ve turned my mac on and off six or seven times a day for three years without problem the monitor is the same to leave it on is to waste a lot of electricity twice as much as a television possibly more turn it off when you re not using it it ll save you money and the world a few more resources the problem with turing your computer on and off constantly is not due to the power surge at start up it is due to thermal fatigue you turn on your computer it heats up and everything expands you turn it off it cools off and everything contracts there is a limited number of cycles of this that any component can take before it fails modern electronics are much more robust in this respect than their predeccesors in fact portable computers are designed with this in mind since the sleep function that extends battery life also greatly increaces the number of thermal cycles that occur as a rule of thumb if i am not going to use my computer and this includes the monitor in the next hours i turn it off i always dim the monitor when not in use to prolong the life of the phosphor i tend to think that with the pace of technical innovation in the computer industry you should be much less concerned with the fatigue life of your equipment and more concerned with how long your particular architecture will be supported by hardware and software vendors charles kuehmann northwestern university steel research group
comp.sys.mac.hardware	extra monitors hi netters for my home computer i have a humble maclc with a color monitor the majority of my work is writing therefore i would love to have a b w portrait monotor conected to the lc however i sometimes do need the color monitor my question is this is there a good cheap way to hook up two monitors to my lc and is there anyone out there that has done this how do you like it please respond here or to me directly thanks for your time hope to talk to anyone soon jerry salem jerry slack med upenn edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	thanks for unlockfolder sorry all the personal replies i sent about help with unlockfolder got eaten by my mail program my fault so i d like to thank everyone who sent me info kristen lepa origin leo technology hst v
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re price drop on c within in article uupcb hal k ann arbor mi us barry davis hal k ann arbor mi us barry davis writes ns i have negotiated a ns good deal with a supplier for a c and i would like to jump on it ns but again i don t want the price drop to smuther me btw the deal ns i have is a c with mouse for does anyone know of a better ns deal i don t know of a better deal but would you be willing to share your deal with the rest of us that certainly sounds like you re getting a great deal i d be interested in that deal too deluxe b s microframe the best in price and performance qnet the pipeline atlanta ga echo mail from around the world ok if i post where this comes from will people stop sending email asking where i negotiated the deal the deal is from international computer and networking in ca i saw the ad int he back of macworld and macuser phone number is and the deal may have changed since a few weeks ago since they change prices about every ten minutes alas this is a funny system it sounds like a good deal but this is a centris mb on the motherboard mb simm mb hd no ethernet and no coprocessor well actually it s a lc instead of a rc just had to say that to keep people from saying there is no such thing as an without a coprocessor since the fpu is built into the chip ok there ya have it but if i were you i would wait untill the cyclones come out and buy a quadra nate o o i hate quotations this message brought you by tell me what you know nate sammons and the number ralph waldo emerson ns longs lance colostate edu o o
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quicktime resolution anyone happen to know what the max resolution for quicktime is i m trying to determine if a maxed out system using quicktime could produce and edit broadcast quality video including bringing the video in via video spigot etc so far i have yet to see anything that s even close to s vhs in quicktime but it d be great to hear that it s possible thanks for the help alex bratton
comp.sys.mac.hardware	i want macweek how do i get a subscription to macweek i want one but i don t seem to be able to find a subscription card anywhere email smashman leland stanford edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	c ugradable to tempest is it going to be possible to upgrade a c to tempest if so how motherboard switch probably gonna be expensive right dt
comp.sys.mac.hardware	appleone scanner and printing quality we just received an appleone color scanner for our lab however i am having trouble getting reasonable scanned output when printing a scanned photo on a laserwriter iig i have tried scanning at a higher resolution and the display on the screen appears very nice however the printed version is coming out ugly is this due to the resolution capabilities of the printer or are there tricks involved to get better quality or should we be getting something like photoshop to pretty up the image i will appreciate any suggestions thanks in advance kris kris schroeder schroede cps msu edu ai kbs lab michigan state university
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cache card for iisi in article c u l m i netnews jhuapl edu richs aplcomm jhuapl edu rich spiegel writes in article r nb h usenet ins cwru edu da cleveland freenet edu charles g williams writes so is a good deal or not i still don t know i would say that is not a good deal in june s macworld river formerly maya computer advertised a daystar mhz powercache with for can you believe it i know prices would be falling but geeze actually the is for the mhz powercard not the universal powercache the mhz universal powercache with fpu and adaptor can be had for about still not a bad deal i believe the powercard is one generation older than the universal powercache and the one primary difference is that the powercard is machine specific while the powercache can fit into many macs with the proper adaptor both cards are based i m not sure if the hardware or software with the powercard is otherwise different from the powercache perhaps someone could enlighten me i would also add that i called river computer the other night and these powercards were going very fast rich spiegel mission analysis group johns hopkins road laurel md x as a side note in that same ad macworld they are selling the mhz powercache for the iisi with fpu for for those thinking of upgrading to the mhz turbo an upgrade costs direct from daystar this comes out to about cheaper than what most mail order companies charge jon
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day in article r jl igh function mps ohio state edu nevai mps ohio state edu paul nevai writes yes i know computers and harddisk drives should be always on but what about monitors they generate a lots of heat should i or shouldn t i keep them on hours a day any advice thanks take care paul paul nevai nevai mps ohio state edu dept math ohio state university office columbus ohio u s a math dept fax actually i thought macs were suppoused to be restarted once a day jim smyton smytonj alleg edu sometimes ya just gotta grab we re not hitchhiking life by the teeth and yank anymore we re riding as hard as you can ren weird al
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re using setwutime with a pb in article c s u l p world std com andrew e page aep world std com writes one way to tell is to go and open the powerbook control panel there is a setting there that allows you to set the time to wake up the mac if it is present when you open the control panel then you can assume that setwutime will work gee nice of them to tell us like how about a gestalt response bit for the gestaltpowermanagerattributesfoodspreadproduct selector well at least now i know why it doesn t work i assume i m using a pb kevin boyce lheavx gsfc nasa gov argle bargle morble whoosh moxie or was it pepsi
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re desi pb upgrade david a schnider bmug org writes does anyone know exactly how digital eclipse does their upgrades someone was suggesting to me that some chips may not be able to perform at mhz is this true and if so how does desi deal with that would you believe that there is a letter in macweek this week from one of the hardware types at digital eclipse he says that they run tests on all of the components to see if they will perform at the upgraded speed if they do not then desi replaces them with ones that do hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re rumours about new duos bredell tdb uu se mats bredell writes in the official paper i got from apple about the new docking station apple themselves called it the duodock plus what paper is that it s been on the price list here at dartmouth since they released it and it has never been called the duodock plus hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what was the in light of the letter over what was the lisa i thought i d start a new one what was the iivx i hear it was some machine that predated the main line by about mos but used obsolete tech rumor has it that several were sold for those iivx owners whose panties are in a bunch now this is just a joke really i m just tired of the repetitive nature of this type of dialog plus flaming is stress relief
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lc ii slowdowns in article l sb b w w tfsquad mn org douce tfsquad mn org andrew geweke writes i am currently managing among many other labs a lab with three lc iis a mac plus with mb external hd and a laserwriter ii ntx my problem the lc iis seem to intermittently slow to a snail s pace this happens intermittently to macs in our department ranging from iisi s to a quadra i can end the slowdown immediately by unplugging the ethernet cable from the mac it seems that something on the network puts out these packet storms every few days these storms have the effect of making our macs slow down to a crawl david gutierrez drg biomath mda uth tmc edu only fools are positive moe howard
comp.sys.mac.hardware	stylewriter i vs ii does anyone know what the differences are between the stylewriter and the stylewriter ii please respond via e mail to l d sanders larc nasa gov thanks lyle d sanders l d sanders larc nasa gov unisys government systems inc mail stop b voice nasa langley research center fax hampton va i do not feel obliged to believe that the same god who endowed us with sense reason and intellect has intended us to forgo their use galileo galilei
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day smytonj murr alleg edu jim smyton writes nevai mps ohio state edu paul nevai writes yes i know computers and harddisk drives should be always on but what about monitors they generate a lots of heat should i or shouldn t i keep them on hours a day any advice well the monitor is consistently the largest power drain on your electric bill when you are looking at your computer set up especially if you have a large or greater color monitor generally what i do is leave my mac on all the time except for the occasional resart or syetem crash but i turn my monitor off each night before i leave my office i also turn off after dark when i do this since there is no reason to have the screen saver running when there is no picture being displyed on the monitor s tube actually i thought macs were suppoused to be restarted once a day really what makes you think this the q file server in my office has been on for the last months straight and it hasn t had any problems note i also keep the monitor for the file server turned off when i m not actually working on the server itself hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re what was the apple li in article uupcb hal k ann arbor mi us barry davis hal k ann arbor mi us barry davis writes the lisa was originally introduced in or i forget now and sold for with k floppy drives and mb memory it didn t do too well grin close but no cigar the lisa was introduced in january at the same time as the apple e i ll have to check to see if the hard drive came bundled for the k the floppy drives were initially the infamous twiggy drives chris wood bellcore ccw ctt bellcore com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	se bit card does not work with mb hello i have a se and a generation systems bit pds card for a screen it worked great until i upgraded from to mb ram now with sys and mode or enabler it does not boot a tech support person said the card does not support these bit fixes but when pressing the shift key while booting when the ext monitor goes black after having been grey the system sometimes boots properly and then works ok with the mb and full graphics what s happening thanks a lot for any advice please answer by mail ossip kaehr ossip cs tu berlin de voice ossip kaehr hermannstrasse d berlin germany tel or email ossip cs tu berlin de
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day in article r jl igh function mps ohio state edu pali osu edu writes yes i know computers and harddisk drives should be always on is this true i thought that this was disputed peter peter white internet pw uacsc albany edu state univ of new york at albany bitnet pw albnyvms
comp.sys.mac.hardware	the mhz iisi so i finally decided to risk this upgrade faq in hand i ve gathered the pieces together the only problem is that i haven t been able to find anyone who s even heard of thermal tape glue which is what the faq recommends for attaching the heat sink i am just tempted to use duct tape here anyone hae any ideas for me for attaching the heat sink to the processor much thanks tom therzog willamette edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	inexpensive frame grabbers for macs are all the there pc news any mac se that fit or on tv classic v frame video grabber mac llllll board vision i know of several nubus frame grabber boards but wonder if there might be similar ones for the lesser macs those without slots something permitting instant freezing of a video picture pal and feeding it in without jaggies to a simple digitizer like macvision which takes secs to scan a picture so a frame grabber is a necessity the objective is bit pixel b w pictures stored in hypercard have tried using top quality vcr with freeze frame function but the screens come out full of streaks and garbage please reply only to ianf random se and i ll summarize to the net cannot read such high volume group as is c s m h thanks ian hit r now feldman ianf random se
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sad mac code f hello i am the proud new owner of a mac k upon power up and insertion of the sytem disk i get sad mac code f can anyone give me a clue to what this means thanks steve
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day yes i know computers and harddisk drives should be always on but what about monitors they generate a lots of heat should i or shouldn t i keep them on hours a day any advice thanks take care paul there has been no empirical evidence to support the first statement true there is a power surge at startup that has the potential to do damage but the internal power supply is well protected i ve turned my mac on and off six or seven times a day for three years without problem the monitor is the same to leave it on is to waste a lot of electricity twice as much as a television possibly more turn it off when you re not using it it ll save you money and the world a few more resources kelley thomas kelley boylan powerpc ibm austin kelleyb austin ibm com i buy and pay for my own opinions
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pb and extended keyboard hello i saw this question posted a week or so ago but as far as i could tell no answer appeared on the net what is the good oil on connecting the apple extended keyboard to a powerbook the earlier questioner wonderd if this would be too much of a load for the pb and as i want to connect just such a beast i am curious i haven t got a pb yet so i can t rtfm but i assume that a standard keyboard with a mouse would be ok as the spec sheet i read mentioned connecting an external keyboard but is the extended plus mouse pushing it any help gratefully recieved i will summarise to the net if necessary thanks john collins p s i am thinking of a pb but i assume that this would apply to all pb s
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re tempest and cyclone info needed in article news duke edu connie acpub duke edu connie writes the two models will talk as well as listen a new system facility called the speech manager will convert text strings sent by applications to phonemes and then pass them to a speech synthesizer now to make it perfect apple ought to run right out and license the voice of a certain mrs roddenberry for the speech synthesizer scott
comp.sys.mac.hardware	se accelerator i m trying to find some information on accelerator boards for the se has anyone used any in the past especially those from extreme systems novy or macproducts i m looking for a board that will support extended video especially radius s two page monitor has anyone used connectix virtual in conjunction with their board any software snafus are there any stats anywhere on the speed difference between a board with an fpu and one without please send mail directly to me thanks bob brown
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re extra monitors jerry salem writes is there a good cheap way to hook up two monitors to my lc and is there anyone out there that has done this how do you like it jerry slack med upenn edu the only way to do that would be to add a video card to the lc expansion port this doesn t have to be that expensive several companies have portrait monitor video card bundles available check a current macworld macuser nizam nizam arain what makes the universe so hard to comprehend internet narain uiuc edu is that there is nothing nextmail narain sumter cso uiuc edu to compare it with
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help with duo does anyone know how to zap the pram on the duo inaddition i have recently noticed that checking the ram left in the finder on the duo reveals the normal k for the system file but only about to of the bar is actually highlighted implying that only k is being used for the system what gives i have had no crashes yet or other software problem thanks arun mathur
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple gc video card a friend of mine recently acquired an gc card for his iisi and was wondering why it always starts up in black and white i know there have been numerous reports about the worth of the gc but i was wondering if anyone could elaborate a little more on the subject any replies encouraged thanks in ad vance joe kasanic
comp.sys.mac.hardware	info request hp deskwriter mathematica has anyone else gotten a system error when trying to print from mathematica to the hp deskwriter i m using a pb with megs ram sys tuneup hp print drivers etc it works find on an imagewriter i i d like to get as much information as possible before i send a bug report to wolfram thanks kurt whitmore iastate edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	vx centris upgrade price anyone have a price quote vendor for the vx to centris upgrade i ve been quoted a price of till august th after which it will cost this of course doesn t include the trade in rebate of for the vx board thus for one gets a centris meg onboard with both the fpu and ethernet anyone else have any info this price is from the university of illinois micro order center are there any other vendors who offer similar prices johann j beda uiuc edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re sad mac code f in article apr desire wright edu cse desire wright edu writes hello i am the proud new owner of a mac k upon power up and insertion of the sytem disk i get sad mac code f can anyone give me a clue to what this means bad system disk possibly too new a version for your historical curiosity h h h h h h h h hfat mac matthew t russotto russotto eng umd edu russotto wam umd edu some news readers expect disclaimer here just say no to police searches and seizures make them use force not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re i want macweek you can call macuser magazine number i guess they will give you the info
comp.sys.mac.hardware	phonenet pc anyone have any experiences to report using phonenet pc we re thinking about investing in one of these cards for our lone pc at work ken gantz kgantz cup portal com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	scsi info needed hi everyone i just had a quick question does anyone know whether or not the maciivx supports the new scsi form or do any macs support it thanks for reading wes wes houghton internet whoughto diana cair du edu denver co
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac os does anybody know where i can get a copy of system l it is a modified version of system that will work on the newer mac models y ernest stalnaker jcs sage cc purdue edu oo oo pur ee sage cc jcs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re tempest and cyclone info needed in article news duke edu connie acpub duke edu connie writes if anyone has any information about the upcoming new computers cyclone and tempest i am in need of some info anything would be greatly appreciated shawn breedsa wkuvx bitnet according to macweek of description deleted any idea on prices thanks jt
comp.sys.mac.hardware	non apple mon for duo s the duo s can drive apple s monitor at x resolution and colors i think what non apple monitors can also be used would a multisync nec fg work as well at the same resolution what are the outstanding points of the apple monitor when compared with these other monitors denis
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lw select doesn t work out of box hello net people we have a laserwriter select standard mb ram connected to an lc iii the print driver cannot find any adobe type fonts or any truetype fonts in the system the connections to the printer and the driver installation are correct but this printer still refuses to find fonts and work correctly out of the box imho an apple product not working out of the box is a shameful event the installer disks for the printer install lw select driver v printmonitor v and backgrounder v on a system lc iii has anyone else had similar experiences with this printer configuration because we really need some help on this one thanks anthony anthony medicine adelaide edu au
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra clock modification long here is how i modified my quadra for higher speed previously i had been using a variable speed overdrive for accelerating my cpu but this modification is testing out as more stable at higher speeds your mileage may vary the top speed you achieve cannot be predicted before hand my personal q has tested fine up to mhz thus far i didn t have higher speed clock oscillators on hand to test higher speeds parts clock oscillators pin ttl variety you will need a selection of speeds beginning at mhz on up the cpu will run at the oscillator speed the original one is a mhz unit i recommend getting a mhz clock in case you damage the existing one i obtained my clock oscillators from digikey for less than each some of their part numbers are mhz ttl clock oscillator part x mhz ttl clock oscillator part x mhz ttl clock oscillator part ctx don t get the half size clock oscillators they won t fit there are also cmos clock oscillators i haven t tried one in a quadra they work fine in iisi s socket obtain a pin socket which is in the same form factor as a pin dip package alternatively use machined socket pins from an augat style socket just cut them out of the socket cooling fan a very small volt fan to keep the cpu cool is a must my vso came with a specially modified heatsink which had a fan built onto it it had a pass through connector which tapped into the hard drive power cable you should rig up something similar or risk frying your cpu procedure insert usual disclaimer and antistatic warnings here remove the top lid of the machine you will see the floppy disk and hard drive mounted in a plastic tower follow the usual anti static precautions and of course make sure the machine is off when you do this unplug all cables wall and monitor power supply cords from the back of the mac remove the power supply by pulling the plastic interlocking tab on the tower forward and simultaneously pulling the power supply straight up the tab is a piece of plastic from the left posterior aspect of the tower which extends downward to hook on to the power supply you may also feel a horseshoe shaped piece at the right portion of the power supply leave that alone the plastic tab from the tower is all you need release look at the rear of the tower assembly you will see the flat ribbon scsi connector to the hard drive a power cable and a flat ribbon cable leading to the floppy drive disconnect all these from the motherboard the hard drive power cable connector has a tab which must be squeezed to release it unplug the drive activity led from its clear plastic mount look down the posterior cylindrical section of the plastic tower a phillips head screw is at the base remove it taking care not to drop it into the case a bit of gummy glue on your screwdriver is helpful here remove the tower assembly by pulling medially the plastic tab on the right side of the tower this tab prevents the tower from sliding posteriorly slide the entire tower assembly cm posteriorly then lift the tower assembly straight up and out of the case remove the interrupt switch assembly it is a strangely shaped plastic device at the left front edge of the motherboard pull the middle rear plastic prong up and forward the entire device will release unplug the speaker cable squeeze the plastic tab on the speaker to free it then swing it backwards to free it from the case remove the motherboard form the case lift the front right corner of the motherboard about mm this allows it to clear the clear plastic power light guide slide the motherboard forward about cm the motherboard then comes directly out locate the mhz clock crystal it is a small metal box near the cpu chip note and remember its orientation the new clock oscillators must be aligned with pin in the same orientation very carefully desolder and remove the old clock oscillator some of the pins may be bent over simply desolder then unbend them be sure your desoldering iron is hot enough before heating the board i used a suction desoldering iron to accomplish this task this is not appropriate for a first soldering experience the motherboard is a multi layer design with very fine traces easily damaged without proper care install your socket or socket pins where the old oscillator once was put a mhz clock oscillator into the new socket you could use the old clock but it has solder on its pins this may come of inside the socket and cause corrosion problems later i suggest using a new mhz clock install your cooling fan system to complete the modification reinsert the motherboard and slide it into place snap in the interrupt switch assembly and speaker to lock the mother board firmly plug the speaker wire back into the motherboard reinstall the tower assembly by first placing the right wall of the tower against the right wall of the case with the tower assembly about cm posterior of its intended position lower the tower assembly into place while maintaining contact with the right wall of the case once fully down slide the tower assembly anteriorly until it clicks into place reconnect the motherboard ends of the cables dont t forget the floppy drive cable replace the phillips head screw drop the power supply straight down into place until it clicks in plug the hard drive activity light back into its clear plastic mount reattach your cables and power cords cross your fingers and turn on the mac it should make the usual power on chord if it doesn t something is amiss immediately turn of the power and recheck your handiwork if all is not well you have my sincere condolences hopefully all will work normally turn the machine back off and replace the mhz clock oscillator with a faster one reboot and be astounded you will need to fully test the machine for many hours before deciding a particular speed is truly usable with my vso a machine lock up might take hours of operation to occur in the brief time since modifying my clock oscillator hours i have not had a single problem good luck to all who attempt this modification there is a small but real risk but you could well reach quadra speeds or higher with less than in parts guy kuo guykuo u washington edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cyclone tempest price any idea on the price range of the cyclone or the tempest compared to current line of computers where will the new ones fall in price keeper heh heh stop what is your name arthur it is arthur king of the britons keeper what is your quest arthur to seek the holy grail keeper what is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow arthur what do you mean an african or european swallow keeper what i don t know that auuuuuuuugh bedemir how do know so much about swallows arthur well you have to know these things when you re a king you know brian lee smith blsmith eos ncsu edu north carolina state university
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help on gcc plp ii laser printer i have a plp ii laser printer make by gcc technologies i have problem with a dirty first page the top portion of the first is always smeared with black toner across the page if i print more than one page at the same time the problem does not occur on other pages i cleaned the printer but still does not help can anyone offer any solutions or know the phone to gcc technologies thanks in advance charles cng me utoronto ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	looking for mac ii batteries hi i am looking for a source of lithium batteries for an original mac ii the number on the battery is er aa local electronic shops computer stores freak when inquire the fastest any of them can get a battery to me is weeks for about anything faster and or cheaper is welcome please respond to me via e mail and i will summarize to the net note my e mail address differs from the return address of this posting thanks in advance for your help michael stovsky mps cbvox att com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	trade an se for a color mac ok i want to get a color mac i don t care if it is an lc or a mac ii or what but i want to go to a color machine i d prefer to trade my present mac se system plus some cash or other equipment for the color system as right now i m not full of the to buy a color system outright here s what my mac se system has mac se with internal k drive meg external external k drive imagewriter ii with color ribbon stuff that can go with it i m willing to include both of the modems and the baud modem if the deal is right keep in mind that both the modems are less than a month old and the multitech modem sells for about or so multitech multimodem ii data fax u s robotics sportster data microcom qx k normally will connect at only as highest but it will do faster if connected to another microcom the usr and the multitech are both brand new if interested send me e mail at dleonard wixer bga com primary judy s stamps misc topical stamps from dogs dleonard wixer bga com to cats to baseball and many many other subjects secondary for stamp information call tony leonard at dleonard wixer cactus org this is a business only number
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iisi clock poll results long this poll was conducted to help users decide whether or not to alter their iisi clock oscillator i have attempted to gather as many case histories as possible to find some estimate of success and risk the number of replies probably shows how rare this modification is but give the impression that success rates may be higher than the previous estimate of machines were able to run at mhz when no add on boards were present this is not a scientific survey but it is the best we have to work with thanks to all who contributed to this poll issues speed mhz to mhz appears to be the norm for machines without add on cards all reported machines were able to use mhz as long as no add on cards were present several apple nubus cards were in use no machine with the nubus adapter was able to go faster than mhz one wasn t even able to achieve mhz with the nubus adapter in place at speeds of and mhz the startup sound is distorted and hi density floppy disk problems have been reported note unless specifically listed below machines were not tested with a higher speed clock to failure hence the mhz operational machines may well work at higher speeds damage one user reported pulling out the plating of one pad this was repaired and the machine is operational one other reported pulling the pin out of the original clock oscillator during desoldering there is one second hand report of a user putting a gash in the motherboard with a slipped soldering iron no reports of static discharge damage no reports of high speed operation causing damage then again i also don t have any reports from users of defective parachutes add on boards compatibility appears to be a problem with apple nubus adapters several other add on boards have been used with success see case histories heat sinks virtually all modified machines had a heat sink installed these were often the to style power transistor type some used epoxy some used a dab of heat sink compound with a dab of cyanoacrylate glue there was also use of a clamp with a bolt through the hole in the motherboard case histories all speeds are the effective cpu speed of clock oscillator all reported cpu versions were mhz mhz operational ran for minutes at mhz before crashing no fpu or other add on card heatsinked cpu only on hours day no damage during installation mhz operational without apple nubus adapter mhz top speed with apple nubus card installed heatsinked cpu only on hours day no floppy problems no damage during installation mhz operational unable to boot at mhz heatsinked cpu only no floppy problems no damage during installation mhz operational works with the following two configurations a realtech fpu adaptor card realtech cache card supermac pdqsi b supermac fpu adaptor card supermac video spigot supermac pdqsi mhz operational fuzzy startup sound problems with hi density disks mhz operational fuzzy startup sound heat sink on cpu and chip to right of cpu mhz operational occasional crash at mhz mhz operational using fpu rated at mhz without difficulty mhz operational pds adapter with a spectrum pdqsi graphics card and a videospigot a mhz fpu heat sink on cpu mhz operational mhz failed after several hours mhz operational quicksilver fpu only upgrade mhz operational tried mhz system won t start heat sink on cpu configured with realtech fpu adapter card supermac pdqsi realtech cache cpu on continuously no problems floppy works fine at mb mhz mhz operational heat sink on cpu mhz operational heat sink on cpu mhz operational heat sink on cpu mhz operational heat sink on cpu mhz operational heat sink on cpu on hours per day mhz operational heat sink on cpu cooling fan no floppy problems at mhz mhz operational bombed soon after startup at mhz with nubus adapter mhz rated cpu ram ns in slots on motherboard mhz operational heat sink added to cpu later no damage while unheatsinked apple nubus adapter with fpu installed mhz operational heat sink on cpu mhz operational heat sink on cpu mhz operational heat sink on cpu mhz operational heat sink on cpu guy kuo guykuo u washington edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re number for applied engineering anyone have a phone number for applied engineering so i can give them a call ae is in dallas try or tech support may be on their own line but one of these should get you started good luck
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re when is apple going to ship cd i s in article quod i n menudo uh edu ln sdm sdcc ucsd edu writes the cd external is already shipping and has been shipping for quite awhile now demand for the units are high so they are pretty rare i ve seen them listed for around at local computer stores and the campus mac reseller i ve also heard rumors that they are bundled with a couple of cd s i had mention in a previous article that i was searching for the external drive i did call apple catalog as recommended and they told me the drives were back ordered until may i placed an order anyways and two days later i had a visit from federal express well you can guess how i spent my weekend of course i ended up paying list price but you do get a free copy of pc exchange when you order from the apple catalog you may want to check if they have any internal drives btw an older version of gatekeeper i don t recall which version hung up my mac when trying to access a photocd or audio disk i got the newer version which did mention a conflict with the apple xx cd driver
comp.sys.mac.hardware	wanted macintosh powerbook looking for a mac pb that s in good condition brand new w warranty would be ideal it should also include the external floppy drive and have at least a meg internal hard drive with meg of ram so if you have a pb that you d like to turn into cash please write me thanks very much billy irvine com billyb bouncer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac scsi spec on tim keanini was heard to say regarding mac scsi spec tk from blast nntp crl com tim tk keanini tk tk i have a maciifx and i know that it is wired about its scsi chain tk tk i just bought a drive and i need to find out a few hardcore scsi tk question tk tk does the iifx scsi chain want to see active or passive termination tk tk does the iifx scsi spec want me to enable the initiation of the sdtr tk message tk tk what does the iifx scsi spec want as far as parity checking tk tk these are some very good questions for the faq if someone does not tk have time to answer these questions but does know where i can look tk them up please let me know and i will repost the answers for everyone tk to see tk read technote it deals with more than any sane person wants to know about the iifx s scsi tk thanks tim keanini timk broder com or blast crl com tk sound engineer broderbund software tk
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra clock chip followup my recently modified quadra with a socket for clock oscillators has now completed nearly hours of error free operation at mhz with a mhz clock oscillator i have also tried a mhz cmos clock and that works as well on the more stupid side i ve discovered you can use a mhz clock and make your q as slow as a centris however a mhz clock which would have yielded a mhz quadra who d want one didn t work at all impatiently awaiting a mhz clock guy kuo guykuo u washington edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	supercard cdrom i need help finding xcmds to control a cd rom drive from aldus supercard the apple hypercard cd rom toolkit does not work aldus has no clue apple has no clue berkeley mug and boston mug won t return any phone calls my local user group has no idea help commercial or shareware is fine please reply by email clee theporch raider net thanks chris lee macintosh consulting america online chris po box graphics interface design compu erve nashville tn digital audio clee theporch raider net
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re duo price reduction yes duo prices have dropped i don t have the msrp reductions though you can find it in a recent tidbits archived at sumex but here s the berkeley educational price list old new duo duo duo duo modem so there joel joel siegel jdsiegel garnet berkeley edu jdsiegel ocf berkeley edu i myself have never been able to find out what feminism is i only know that i am called a feminist whenever i express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat rebecca west
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quicktime jpeg expansion source needed hello we need the code for decompression of quicktime jpeg pict files as they don t conform to usual jpeg compressors which are available in source the code should be in c pascal or modula the code will be used on several platforms to view pictures over isdn perhaps a special hardware will be put around it much less then a mac perhaps only a dsp with some support chips if the code is not available perhaps the algorithm is available to decompress them christian bauer bauer informatik uni ulm de
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re i want macweek in article apr leland stanford edu smashman leland stanford edu adam samuel nash writes how do i get a subscription to macweek i want one but i don t seem to be able to find a subscription card anywhere email smashman leland stanford edu i just ordered my subscription today call macweek s customer service dept at and quote some plastic if you forget the number it s included in the statement of ownership which is on the contents page of the copy i have a one year subscription costs in the u s canada or mexico i was told my first issue would arrive in weeks leslie jones ljones utkvx utk edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day a cnn factiod in the last few months stated that of all the computers in the u s are left on hours a day days a week i don t recall cnn s source leslie jones ljones utkvx utk edu who turns off his monitor when he s not using it
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sony dat retrospect ci problems hi i m having problems tying to get a sony dat drive to work i m using retrospect ci and my only luck with getting the drive to work has been with a mac iici which has now unfortunately gone to another department ideally we want to attach it to our quadra setup i can t seem to get the retrospect software to recognize the media at all when in the devices dialog it can see the dat device but comes up with firstly running secondly media failure and then immediately contents unknown this does not happen with the mac iici setup which simply says ready i m hoping someone else will have had similar problems but found some solution i know some others who have had problems with dat devices and their quadra but they have a mac iici which they can use the symptoms system software is also didn t work with i have tried the following turn off all extensions except retrospect scsi required tested on a variety of machines quadra iisi and lc at least connected no other scsi devices tested all varieties of scsi termination etc replaced the dat unit with a new one yes we got that desperate read the retrospect manual even more desperate replies via email would be greatly appreciated thanks in advance i ll post any solutions to this group cheers matt matthew riddle matthew ariel unimelb edu au science multimedia teaching unit tel faculty of science fax university of melbourne australia my opinions are my own
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra scsi problems in article kluskens istari nrl navy mil michael s kluskens kluskens radar nrl navy mil writes the problem mentioned last is a known quadra scsi problem it was heavily discussed last year and an apple employee pointed out that there was a one byte error in the scsi driver routine for the quadra s at least the and system should not have that problem for most people the solution was to get an updated driver from the drive manufactor in my case mass microsystems wrote a new driver which fixed the problem on my quadra all that occured early last year anyone know if there is an updated driver for sony dat drives i can t get mine to work with our see sony dat retrospect problems posted in this group but i m also having problems with other new macs cheers matt matthew riddle matthew ariel unimelb edu au science multimedia teaching unit tel faculty of science fax university of melbourne australia my opinions are my own
comp.sys.mac.hardware	upgrading pb i read in a recent tidbits about the possibility of putting a in a pb i am interested in doing so but would like to know more about it does it involve just replacing the that is on the daughterboard or does it involve getting a new daughter board also would the be able to run qt with the pb s screen not pretty i know but possible and of course what would the damage be any info would be appreciated thanks in advance jay fogel
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help on gcc plp ii laser printer cng me utoronto ca charles ng writes i have a plp ii laser printer make by gcc technologies i have problem with a dirty first page the top portion of the first is always smeared with black toner across the page if i print more than one page at the same time the problem does not occur on other pages i cleaned the printer but still does not help can anyone offer any solutions or know the phone to gcc technologies the phone number for gcc is i believe i don t have the number for tech support handy alan
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra clock chip followup i have replaced the osz to mhz yesterday and no truble at all my quadra now works at mhz stable for more than hours i have also tried a mhz osz but after hour my quadra died i am not sure what was the reason for that but it is to risky to run it to fast most of your quadras should work at mhz without any problems but a safety tip do a backup from your harddisk befor you start to upgrade during my mhz test i damaged my harddisk and had a hardtime to get it working again so once again do a backup befor you start now the speedometer results after replacing the osz speedometer report for menes rainer prepared april machine record version user comment quadra mhz and ram disk mbyte ram mbyte vram system information computer mac quadra cpu mc fpu integral fpu mmu integral mmu color quickdraw bit qd system version finder version d appletalk version laserwriter version d laser prep version not found imagewriter version d rom version c rom size bit depth horizontal dpi vertical dpi primary screen size x physical ram k logical ram k p r results uses mac classic as cpu graphics disk name of hard disk tested ram disk math performance rating pr benchmark results uses mac classic as kwhetstones dhrystones towers quicksort bubble sort queens puzzle permutations fast fourier f p matrix multiply integer matrix multiply sieve benchmark average fpu tests uses mac ii as ffpu fast fourier fpu kwhetstones fpu f p matrix mult fpu test average color tests uses mac ii as black white colors colors colors color test average very interesting are the graphics results graphics couldn t belief this but it is true two points which my cause problems are the mbyte ram solder on the board the are only ns rams and run at the upperlimit with mhz the next part which may cause trouble are the video rams i have the orignal ns vrams from apple in my quadra here you are also at the upperlimit where most of the chips running but it isn t garantied to run most of the other parts on the quadra board running on there o wn clockspeed so they wont make truble the most importaned question is do i neat a new heat sink i would say no after running my quadra for more than hours the heat sink is really cool a mhz with heat sink is mutch warmer than the in the quadra so i didn t see any problems the room temperatur was celsius f if you living in a area were it is hot f c and your room temperatur is not mutch below i would suggest a new heat sink with a ventilator to stay on the safe side hope you will have the same success than i had rainer email menes statistik tu muenchen de
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra in article apr yuma acns colostate edu df lance colostate edu daniel philip fagan wrote does anybody know the difference between the quarda and quadra quarda is a popular misspelling of quadra which has a mhz processor the has a mhz and some local buses on the motherboard run faster the video is different also the can run a and i believe a monitor in bit color without a vram upgrade besides the faster processor the has scsi and as far as i know faster i o due to separate processors handling those functions the can output bit video to a monitor with meg of vram and bit with meg hope this helps anand armani edgeway wimsey bc ca edgeways infolink armani edgeway wimsey bc ca gui bbs anand the views expressed here are mine from firstclass tm by postalunion lite tm from north vancouver bc canada
comp.sys.mac.hardware	problems with laserwriter print driver and printmonitor we are having problems with our laserwriter print drivers going bad on various people s machines on our appletalk network on our network people have and versions of the laserwriter print driver we have been solving the problem by reinstalling the print driver but it is time consuming and a real pain the printmonitor software also seems to go bad frequently we have also just been replacing it over and over it seems to keep things running does anyone out there have any ideas about what may be causing the printing software to go bad are there known init conflicts or network conflicts i would appreciate communication about any similar experiences you may have had or ideas you have you could send me an email directly to karens edc org thanks karen
comp.sys.mac.hardware	nec fge vs nec fg we were told that the resolution on the fge could only go to x and that the fg could go to x has anybody tried running these higher resolutions somewhere i thought i read that the x on a monitor may make the type too small to read any help would be appreciated steve
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re pin simms where in article qulhsinnm charnel ecst csuchico edu smedley ecst csuchico edu steven medley writes i am looking for a meg pin simm for my centris where is the best place to purchase one stock shipping warrenty and if possible phone numbers so that i can order one as soon as possible st tech corp technology blvd suite po box austin tx fax monty solomon po box framingham ma monty roscom think com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re non apple mini docks available there are no minidocks with math coprocessors available right now and i am not aware of any in development demand appears low for such a device right now but i m sure some enterprising vendor would create one if there were sufficient demand lynn from planet bmug the firstclass bbs of bmug the message contained in this posting does not in any way reflect bmug s official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re driver for dataframe xp b log onto supermac s bbs and download the drive manager software you will find there if you can t or don t want to call their bbs call their tech support number lynn from planet bmug the firstclass bbs of bmug the message contained in this posting does not in any way reflect bmug s official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re mac plus is constantly rebooting in article netnews upenn edu jeffe eniac seas upenn edu george wrote basically the mac pluses are constantly rebooting themselves as if the reboot button were being pushed sometimes the mac is able to fully boot well this threads been going long enough i ll add a diferent twist yet another twist i m expiriencing the same kind of problem with my se although not as frequent any suggestions karl johan olsen internet karljo imv aau dk dept of information and media science university of aarhus denmark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re price drop on c within ns lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons writes alas this is a funny system it sounds like a good deal but this is a centris mb on the motherboard mb simm mb hd no ethernet and no coprocessor well actually it s a lc instead of a rc just had to say that to keep people from saying there is no such thing as an without a coprocessor since the fpu is built into the chip actually there such a thing as an without a coprocessor it s called the lc this is a redesign of the full which people are calling the rc although i have been told by a number of people that motorola doesn t call the full that without the integrated fpu hardware it just isn t there
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re educational pricing in article c iz n kyv cs dal ca hayes ug cs dal ca kevin b hayes writes in apr leland stanford edu stchang leland stanford edu steven kuk jin chang writes there seems to be some confusion about educational discounts true apple has different dealer price for educational and retail vendors but those price differences are not that great about maybe but the end user price is more like less it is here in canada anyway for what it s worth my experience has been that the educational discount which my s o has taken advantage of as a teacher is roughly equivalent to the corporate discounts that i m able to get as an employee of a fairly large multi state corporation which is usually at least as good as what one can get at one of the discount computer chains e g compusa for purposes of budget estimation around here we usually just knock around off srp the doge of south st louis dobbs approved media conspirator tm one step beyond sundays to pm fm st louis community radio you ll pay to know what you really think j r bob dobbs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerpc nubus rumors i read in macweek that some developers are getting nubus cards from apple with pre release powerpc chips on them does this mean that when the chip is released those of us with old apples will be able to take advantage of the powerpc risc technology just by inserting a card i don t know anything about hardware so can someone tell me how much of a cludge this would be archon
comp.sys.mac.hardware	internalizing removable drive is it possible to rip an external syquest removable drive out of its external casing and install it into the empty bay slot on a centris i know a special bracket would need to be purchased but is there any power hookup scsi constraints that would prevent it if anyone has done it could they mail me some instructions it doesn t seem to be that overwhelming an undertaking nicholas lamendola he who controls the fork controls the meal of his choice npl lingo psych rochester edu npl merlin cvs rochester edu lard
comp.sys.mac.hardware	svga monitors and centris the real story what is the real story here can i hook up any pc svga montitor to the centris internal video do i need to make my own cable if it doesn t not come with one has apple released a tech note with the pinouts for doing such the reasoj i ask is that it seems the prices for svga are lower than that of their mac counterparts mike
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day yes i know computers and harddisk drives should be always on but what about monitors they generate a lots of heat should i or shouldn t i keep them on hours a day any advice thanks take care paul i vote for turning them off at night the stress of off on is a little harmful so don t turn it off then back on an hour later etc but turning them off for hours or overnight is a good idea the electricy consumption will go down if you turn them off overnight along with heat we have a lot of year old machines in the basement that still work but who cares they are off hours a day
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day stubbs hawk cs ukans edu jerry stubbs writes the electricy consumption will go down if you turn them off overnight along with heat i wonder how hard it would be i e what it would add to the cost to design desktop machines with a power saver feature built in which would reduce power consumption automatically if the machine is idle for more than some amount of time this is pretty standard in portable machines and the same kinds of tricks could be played spinning down disks turning off screens reducing clock speed etc the advantage of this over just turning the thing off would be you don t have to remember to do anything and the machine is still available over the network the tricky part might be in defining what constitutes inactivity certainly you don t want to wake up from sleep mode just because somebody pinged you but you do want to wake up at least the cpu if somebody logs in via a telnet connection i wouldn t worry too much about wasting electricity in the winter months that energy is just getting turned into heat it may not be as efficient a way to heat a building as the central heating plant but it s not too bad in the summer though it s a disaster not only are you wasting that power but you re probably also running the air conditioning to get rid of the waste heat roy smith roy nyu edu hippocrates project department of microbiology coles nyu school of medicine first avenue new york ny this never happened to bart simpson
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re duo price reduction joel siegel jdsiegel garnet berkeley edu wrote yes duo prices have dropped i don t have the msrp reductions though you can find it in a recent tidbits archived at sumex but here s the berkeley educational price list old new duo duo duo duo modem and the michigan state university pricing of the systems powerbook duo portable m ll a mac powerbook duo m ram m hd promotion expires b ll a mac pb duo bundle w flpy adpt m drive internet michael kwun umich edu i speak only for myself bitnet userw za umichum support a local cooperative
comp.sys.mac.hardware	disk mount problems i have an external drive connected to my iisi this is never recognized and mounted on system startup i can mount it with the scsi control panel i m running system and everything is properly terminated would anyone have a helpful idea at to the problem douglas s rand drand osf org osf motif dev snail cambridge center cambridge ma disclaimer i don t know if osf agrees with me let s vote on it amateur radio kc kj
comp.sys.mac.hardware	appletalk imagewriter lq compatible needed since image writer lq was discontinued there is no apple talk printer with continous paper printer i would like to know is there are any possibility to connect an ibm compatible printer to an apple talk net directly or with a net serial hardware and if i need any other software to do it
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re good hard disk driver for non apple drives sys compat i need to add to your message i have a major problem on my hands i have a rodime series ro t external hard drive rodime is out of business and not writing any more drivers in particular drivers compatable with system after talking to rodime they recommended the following hard drive manufacturers and their driver software that were compatable scsi hard drive manufacturer driver software fwb hard disk tool kit fwb hard disk tool kit personal la cie silverlining or higher casa blanca driver software drive if anybody has experience with these driver software packages please reply if there is shareware out there i would like to get my hands on it i would much rather send a good developer the or so because most of the software i mentioned if purchased would cost and respectively thanks in advance bob dohr the association bringing a kind word and a helpful spirit wherever we can we are the association a multi line macintosh bbs in grand blanc michigan echoes from fido internet familynet icdmnet k plus gb files at hst v bis testify bob dohr internet bob dohr f n z fidonet org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra clock chip followup i have also moved on to a mhz clock thus far not problems i m not totallysurprised as i ve had q run at mhz cpu clock speed using a vso my mhz rated daystar quadracache got very hot at mhz and would fail previously i glued on a piece of aluminum stock to the hi speed ram chips and it runs cool without problems at mhz the combination is faster than a q
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pin simms for q be careful before buying i purchased x mb pin ns simms for my quadra from chip merchant i ve been very satisfied with them in the past either one alone works but both together fail i called apple for advice and was told that there was a problem with composite simms only non composite simms should be used with the q chip merchant confirmed that they presently sell only composite pin simms so q simms need to be both ns and non composite marty sachs usda ars agronomy uiuc msachs ux cso uiuc edu internet s turner hall msachs uiucvmd bitnet s goodwin ave phone urbana il fax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	laserwriter ls driver i have heard that the version printer driver is out for the apple laserwriter ls has ayone heard of how or where to get this driver please email thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day from article r jl igh function mps ohio state edu by nevai mps ohio state edu paul nevai yes i know computers and harddisk drives should be always on but what about monitors they generate a lots of heat should i or shouldn t i keep them on hours a day any advice thanks take care paul paul nevai nevai mps ohio state edu dept math ohio state university office columbus ohio u s a math dept fax well i don t exaclty know what should be done but what i do is keep my cpu on and turn my monitor off when not in use i do this as much for easing power consumption as anything though turning off the monitor when not in use has the advantage of requiring less ram than a screen saver but it requires more of my memory to remember to turn it off pretty easy to remember to turn it on though instrument approach procedures automation dot faa ami bryan d oakley ctrbdo iapa mailhost ecn uoknor edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re c ugradable to tempest david tsai dt n andrew cmu edu writes is it going to be possible to upgrade a c to tempest that s the current rumor that was started by macweek last month if so how motherboard switch how else would you accomplish this kind of an upgrade probably gonna be expensive right of course this is apple we are talking about here hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris to mhz or mhz paryavi matt ksu ksu edu saiid paryavi writes i just put a mhz cpu into my centris now i have a math coprocessor but is it possible to speed up the centris to run at either mhz or mhz not without replacing most of the chips on the motherboard the c isn t like the iisi was meaning that the motherboard of the c is actually designeds to run at the speed of the cpu and not designed to run at a higher speed like mhz but be forced to run at the speed of a slower cpu mhz i didn t see any oscillators on the motherboard like the ones on the iisi s motherboard where is the oscillator for the centris there is more than one oscillator if you are talking about the cpu oscillator chip i think that it is located under the socket for the at least this is what i have read in some other posts in this group hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	third party monitor on iisi so what s the deal with the pds slot in the iisi i recently purchased a mac iisi i want to add a non apple monitor to the system i was told that you could buy a degree angled pds to nubus adaptor card so you can fit a standard nubus card into the computer am i mistaken or do have to buy a pds monitor card specifically for the iisi i ve seen the pds monitor cards for the si but they seem expensive and i m not exactly made of money any ideas help clue me in randy l riegsecker barney must die i need somebody to shove disclaimer the opinions expressed here are mine and not anyone else s
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re duo price reduction kwun css itd umich edu michael kwun writes and the michigan state university pricing of the systems powerbook duo portable m ll a mac powerbook duo m ram m hd promotion expires by then it might be already cheaper b ll a mac pb duo bundle w flpy adpt m drive same here at the u of mn for that bundle peter internet michael kwun umich edu i speak only for myself bitnet userw za umichum support a local cooperative
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day i wonder how hard it would be i e what it would add to the cost to design desktop machines with a power saver feature built in which would reduce power consumption automatically if the machine is idle for more than some amount of time i believe that apple sun and a number of other desktop machine manufacturers have agreed with the government to incorporate power saving techniques this is also something that governments in other countries are likely to require in the future so expect to see it this may include the ability for the system to fully power down the monitor via a controllable power outlet and power it back on automatically is this a sell on screen saver software companies goals for idle power consumption have been set at something like watts for the system not including the monitor don t quote me on this note that in many businesses the savings will be substantial especially if you factor in reduced load on air conditioning systems sun did a study that indicated that simply powering off monitors for the night would save the company sun itself on the order of m per year putting other and automatic power saving features in would probably have greater than double that value given that we are seeing more and more reason to leave our work and home computers on getting faxes automatically getting email building power consumption control into all machines has a potential to cut off the national power consumption based on data i heard btw when encouraging employees to power off monitors when leaving work it was pointed out that this should only be done with monitors with the power switch on front there was some indication that monitors with power switches on the rear are not designed to tolerate lots of power cycling this may only apply to the monitors we use but might be worth checking if you happen to have a monitor with the switch in back
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re svga monitors and centris the real story what is the real story here can i hook up any pc svga montitor to the centris internal video do i need to make my own cable if it doesn t not come with one has apple released a tech note with the pinouts for doing such the reasoj i ask is that it seems the prices for svga are lower than that of their mac counterparts mike having been discusse essentially adnausium the answer is yes at least for the x configuration you can get an adaptor called mac vga q from james engineering and this will let you display x and x if the monitor is capable i think the x requires khz horizontal sync i use this on my sony gives a slightly wider screen than the x adaptor hope it helps a
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re price drop on c within in article c w ol if dartvax dartmouth edu hades dartmouth edu writes ns lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons writes alas this is a funny system it sounds like a good deal but this is a centris mb on the motherboard mb simm mb hd no ethernet and no coprocessor well actually it s a lc instead of a rc just had to say that to keep people from saying there is no such thing as an without a coprocessor since the fpu is built into the chip actually there such a thing as an without a coprocessor it s called the lc this is a redesign of the full which people are calling the rc although i have been told by a number of people that motorola doesn t call the full that without the integrated fpu hardware it just isn t there that s what the pseudo disclaimer is supposed to say sorry for the confusion nate o o i hate quotations this message brought you by tell me what you know nate sammons and the number ralph waldo emerson ns longs lance colostate edu o o
comp.sys.mac.hardware	question about laser printers there is a bancrupcy sale coming up soon and i wonder if anyone know about these printers olivetti pg canon lbp r nec silentwriter s kyocera laser f which of the above if any has postscript and an appletalk interface builtin please reply by e mail tommy nordgren what is a woman that you forsake her royal institute of technology and the hearth fire stockholm and the home acre f tno nada kth se to go with the old grey widow maker
comp.sys.mac.hardware	upgrading a mac plus or se to use a superdrive hello out in networld we have a lab of old macs ses and pluses we don t have enough money to buy all new machines so we are considering buying a few superdrives for our old macs to allow folks with high density disks to use our equipment i was wondering what experiences good or bad people have had with this sort of upgrade murray murray andromeda rutgers edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day in article apr utkvx utk edu ljones utkvx utk edu leslie jones writes a cnn factiod in the last few months stated that of all the computers in the u s are left on hours a day days a week i don t recall cnn s source yeah but they probably included industries and educational institutions that uses mostly work stations suns dec ibm rs etc etc which turns monitor off if left untouched for min chung yang leslie jones ljones utkvx utk edu who turns off his monitor when he s not using it
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re vx centris upgrade price jebg uxa cso uiuc edu johann e beda writes anyone have a price quote vendor for the vx to centris upgrade i ve been quoted a price of till august th after which it will cost this of course doesn t include the trade in rebate of for the vx board thus for one gets a centris meg onboard with both the fpu and ethernet anyone else have any info this price is from the university of illinois micro order center are there any other vendors who offer similar prices falcon microsystems of landover md the sole apple authorized reseller to the federal government has similar open market prices the upgrade is too new to be on general services adminsitration schedule yet joe gurman j b gurman solar physics branch nasa goddard space flight center greenbelt md usa gurman uvsp gsfc nasa gov federal employees are prohibited from holding opinions under the hatch act therefore any opinions expressed herein are somebody else s
comp.sys.mac.hardware	moniterm vcx on mac which card to use i have a nice vxc moniterm in b w monitor formerly used on an atari st i think such monitors are have been used on macs can someone tell me what mac can use it what card i should get to use it etc this monitor also has a label on the front saying viking and has a db connector
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day a cnn factiod in the last few months stated that of all the computers in the u s are left on hours a day days a week i don t recall cnn s source ljones utkvx utk edu leslie jones yeah but most of those are big hulking mainframes which have no monitors factoid fabricated or corrupted tidbit of ordinary information diluted ok dpm murphy npri npri com systems programmer at large when every one is dead cameron st the great game is finished alexandria va not before hurree babu kim
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re iici rom offers bit clean rom for iix in c sku l l news udel edu johnston me udel edu bill johnston writes in this particular case i see no reason to go to the trouble of rom swapping the apple bit enabler has problems but mode works just fine with and still i m not aware of any technical reason for upgrading the rom in a iix other than getting a bit clean rom what other features would a iici rom in a iix provide if any there is probably a market for used mother boards as well so they might sell a rom anyway shreve sells them for about i can t justify this for bit cleanliness when mode works
comp.sys.mac.hardware	hook mac modem to ps has anyone ever hooked a hayes macintosh modem up to the serial port on a pc what are the pin outs to do this i have a mac printer cable to hook a db to the mac serial port can i hook the two mini ports together do i have to swap pins thanx in advance scott
comp.sys.mac.hardware	q way to connect pb iisi p lw ls is there a way to connect a powerbook mac iisi and personal laserwriter ls so that i can not necessarily silmultaneoulsy print from either the iisi or pb and file share between the iisi and pb i know i can get the expensive lw nt upgrade for my ls but i can t afford that thanks mark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	need latest model developer notes hi does anyone know where i can get the developer notes for the new mac models like iivx lc iii centris thank s for any information please reply by email iwan k gunawan oo internet gunawan envmsa eas asu edu gunawan enuxhb eas asu edu gunawan enuxva eas asu edu uu uu arizona state university
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re pin simms for q be careful before buying in article c w v fce news cso uiuc edu marty sachs msachs ux cso uiuc edu writes i purchased x mb pin ns simms for my quadra from chip merchant i ve been very satisfied with them in the past either one alone works but both together fail i called apple for advice and was told that there was a problem with composite simms only non composite simms should be used with the q chip merchant confirmed that they presently sell only composite pin simms so q simms need to be both ns and non composite mb simms do not have to be composite simms although many most mb simms are pin simms allow two memory banks per simm thus permitting the use of mb dram devices the same ones used on mb simms to be used for two mb banks on one simm i can t imagine that it would be cheaper to build an mb simm using mb drams as the mb parts reached and exceeded bit for bit price parity with the mb parts some time ago it s probably possible to build a single bank mb simm using mb parts this could cause problems in a q i m not sure why you d want to do this though as a dual bank mb simm would be cheaper to build than a single bank composite one dale adams
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day the electricy consumption will go down if you turn them off overnight along with heat i wonder how hard it would be i e what it would add to the cost to design desktop machines with a power saver feature built in which would reduce power consumption automatically if the machine is idle for more than some amount of time apple and several other manufacturers have already committed to a monitor design that does just that it was announced along with the new administration s efforts to cut waste and fuel consumption i know that in the buildings where i work gigawatts are wasted by unused always on machines and monitors kelley thomas kelley boylan powerpc ibm austin kelleyb austin ibm com i buy and pay for my own opinions
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re pb and extended keyboard y in article apr otago ac nz grads otago ac nz writes hello i saw this question posted a week or so ago but as far as i could tell no answer appeared on the net what is the good oil on connecting the apple extended keyboard to a powerbook the earlier questioner wonderd if this would any help gratefully recieved i will summarise to the net if necessary the general consensus seems to be that an extended keyboard or the new ergonomic keyboard with mouse is ok the pb is rated for ma which is apparently identical to the lc and the lc works fine with said attachments thanks very much to those who replied i am now on my way to order a battleship and a mouse john now i wonder about my electric toothbrush p s i am thinking of a pb but i assume that this would apply to all pb s
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re performa or lc in article apr tolten puc cl rcvillab isluga puc cl rodrigo carlos villablanca writes hi i have a question which is the diference between performa and lciii i want to know which is better if you know the specifications and the prices of this computers can you tell me by email to rcvillab isluga puc cl i d like to know the diference between the apple monitor and the performa monitor too performa classic ii performa lc ii performa xx lc iii performa well nothing the performas are made to be low cost business solutions the xx have bundled software modems etc because they have no retail price you might be able to get a steeper discount on them shop around as far as the monitors go buy rd party much cheaper brett there s nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction sean o casey in the white plague by frank herbert
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day in article c uhhi hdg austin ibm com kelleyb austin ibm com kelley boylan writes yes i know computers and harddisk drives should be always on but what about monitors they generate a lots of heat should i or shouldn t i keep them on hours a day any advice thanks take care paul there has been no empirical evidence to support the first statement true there is a power surge at startup that has the potential to do damage but the internal power supply is well protected i ve turned my mac on and off six or seven times a day for three years without problem the monitor is the same to leave it on is to waste a lot of electricity twice as much as a television possibly more the computer itself uses far less electricity than a tv monitor depends on the size but one thing not to do is use a self shutdown or power shutdown iron appliance on the same electric line after a new monitor and power supply and modem my wife still doesn t think her iron is at fault she should know better being a bio med engineer brett there s nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction sean o casey in the white plague by frank herbert
comp.sys.mac.hardware	macintosh weenies suck scsi disks i think the subject title says it all anybody that relies on a scsi dick for stoarage is a pain in the ass
comp.sys.mac.hardware	really stupid monitor question i have a iisi a portrait display and i love it i m using the built in video support so its slow and deals with colors grays so i m wondering if i get a video card how much does this tend to speed up things and will i be able to get more than bits oh i have combicache w fpu does this limit my choices of video cards thanks peace fighting for peace is like f cking for virginity don t just adopt opinions some of you are homeboys develop them but only i am the homeboy from hell
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re svga monitors and centris the real story in article moyman jonathan ecn purdue edu mike moya moyman ecn purdue edu writes what is the real story here can i hook up any pc svga montitor to the centris internal video do i need to make my own cable if it doesn t not come with one has apple released a tech note with the pinouts for doing such the reasoj i ask is that it seems the prices for svga are lower than that of their mac counterparts first of all i wouldn t advise wasting your time with apple they ll treat you like an idiot and you won t get any answers a personal opinion the safest thing to do is match the svga monitor s scanning rates with apple s rates i don t know apple s video scanning rates but i use the micron xceed s rates as they re a good approximation about cables you just have to go out to someplace like fry s and get a few mac vga cables and try them out i have a viewsonic e and i use an nec adaptor other monitors may use other adaptors i also have a mac x adaptor that tricks system into thinking the monitor is an apple i need to readjust the vertical and horizontal sizes but it works fairly well just like everything else in life the right lane ends in half a mile ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lciii problems sideways hd s in article qmir l usenet ins cwru edu kephart snowhite eeap cwru edu t kephart writes in article qmgjk ao menudo uh edu sunnyt coding bchs uh edu writes its not a good idea to have a horizontally formatted hard disk in a vertical position if the drive is formatted in a horizontal position it can not completely compensate for the gravitational pull in a vertical position i asked this question a while ago while contemplating placing my on it s side i received a response from someone at seagate sorry i trashed the message stating that most newer drives seagates at the least can very well compensate for gravity this means that a horizontally formatted drive can be later placed vertically with no data integrity problems so is there any problems putting a drive formatted vertically on its side horizontally i got a drive a few years ago with the rubber feet on the side etc and have used it like that since obviously designed for that orientation however it doesn t fit under any of the clever places i can think of to place it so i would really like to lay it flat and put it under a low shelf this is probably not a newer drive and it is only meg but when i bought it it was a large drive for an average user comparable to buying a meg drive today so is my old meg drive as fragile or not as a new meg drive just curious jim melton novice guru email flash austin lockheed com so far as we know our voice mail computer has never had fax an undetected error
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re why the drive speeds differ the most likely explanation may have something to do with the fact that a greater density of information exists on the larger capacity disk drive than the smaller one if your running the drive on a mac i would recommend a shareware utility called timedrive which tests seek scsi throughput and rotational speed this utility should let you know what the differences are between the drives the views expressed in this posting those of the individual author only bbs number maccontent is victoria s first iconic bbs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re deskwriter drivers how to install can someone tell me which of the files that come with dw go where and for what purpose what can be left out for instance if you don t want to do background printing as far as i can remember all you need to do to get your deskwriter up and printing using the driver is to drag the driver itself either serial or appletalk depending on your needs to the system folder you don t need the fonts or anything else if all you want is straight forward bare bones basic printing i don t have anything else installed and can still print on a deskwriter using sys and hp driver tony the views expressed in this posting those of the individual author only bbs number maccontent is victoria s first iconic bbs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	problems with hp backgrounder help hi everyone i m experiencing a very annoying problem with background printing on the hp deskwriter sys deskwriter driver powerbook when i print from say ms word i see the message spooling to disk but sometimes nothing prints checking my memory map thanks to now menus i see that hp backgrounder has not loaded restarting fixes this it seems to me that hp backgrounder is quitting unexpectedly and that its status as multifinder not aware allows it to do this without my being informed by a message such as hp backgrounder quit unexpectedly have you ever seen this problem before there may or may not be a related problem i have experienced problems in putting my computer to sleep choosing sleep from the finder menu sometimes does nothing today on a whim i checked the memory map and i discovered that hp backgrounder was not loaded restarted reloaded hp backgrounder and i was able to put my machine to sleep as usual just a mere coincidence or is the hp backgrounder crash preventing my machine from going to sleep has anyone seen this problem i m seriously considering the purchase of a stylewriterii because of the poor quality of the hp software please send your answers directly to me and post to the net yours truly marc bizer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra in apr edgeway wimsey bc ca armani edgeway wimsey bc ca writes besides the faster processor the has scsi and as far as i know faster i o due to separate processors handling those functions the can output bit video to a monitor with meg of vram and bit with meg actually the quadra and both have the same scsi controller running at different speed they are not scsi but can support certain scsi commands that take advantage of faster drives the i o processors are present on both machines the q runs its i o bus at mhz while the s i o bus is mhz the quadra supports bit color on all monitor sizes as well as bit up to x resolution it also supports x resolution the supports supports bit at x and does not support x at all vram on the is ns or faster and ns or faster on the john rutirasiri
comp.sys.mac.hardware	macwatch has anybody heard about a thing called a macwatch i saw it on tv a couple of years ago it is a watch with a reviever and a transmitter for your mac the practical upshot is that your mac can page your watch and display a small message my flatmate is off to the states for a week or two soon and i am interested in getting one any info would be appreciated thanx in advance glenn
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re se bit card does not work with mb in r kve cl news cs tu berlin de ossip cs tu berlin de ossip kaehr writes i have a se and a generation systems bit pds card for a screen it worked great until i upgraded from to mb ram now with sys and mode or enabler it does not boot a tech support person said the card does not support these bit fixes i guess he is right early versions of the rasterops cards did not either but they fixed it and people with problems can get a free rom upgrade from rasterops but when pressing the shift key while booting when the ext monitor goes black after having been grey the system sometimes boots properly and then works ok with the mb and full graphics what s happening very easy if you boot without the mode control panel then it will disable or rather not reinstall the bit clean patches so when you run ok you must be in bit adressing mode check about this macintosh and see if you havce a mb system thanks a lot for any advice please answer by mail sent seperately ossip kaehr ossip cs tu berlin de voice ossip kaehr hermannstrasse d berlin germany tel or email ossip cs tu berlin de povl h pedersen macintosh specialist knows some dos and unix too pope imv aau dk povlphp uts uni c dk finger me at pope imv aau dk for pgp public key
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra armani edgeway wimsey bc ca anand mani writes besides the faster processor the has scsi and as far as i know faster i o due to separate processors handling those functions mostly the q does have a scsi controller chip as it s scsi chip but it does not have the chips to use the wide or fast scsi modes and therefore doesn t offer much more in the way of scsi performance over the q it does howrever have a faster i o controller than the q this is where the real speed boost comes from hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	good aps experience i just thought i would pass along my experience with aps i recently ordered an external quantum the salesperson was friendly and knowledgeable the order came when promised and the invoice was at the price quoted installing the drive was simple i didn t even have to read the manual the scsi address is set by a pushbutton arrangement i daisy chained the drive from my syquest also from aps and booted up with no problems i m still going through all the shareware that comes on the drive it s a pretty good assortment the drive fan is a bit noisier than i would like but i think it ll be ok the speed seems very good although i haven t run any objective tests it also seems to spin up pretty quickly i can hit the power switch for it and almost immediately power the mac without any problems booting from the drive some observations the case is plastic good quality though while my older syquest case is metal there is one led which is normally green and flickers red as the drive is accessed just a data point rich richard c long long mcntsh enet dec com ludicrous speed go decwrl mcntsh enet dec com long dark helmet long mcntsh dec decwrl enet dec com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day in article ltdpedinnrsj exodus eng sun com gsager heliacal eng sun com gary sager writes btw when encouraging employees to power off monitors when leaving work it was pointed out that this should only be done with monitors with the power switch on front there was some indication that deleted this is a pet peeve of mine i wish companies would put power switches on the front of the equipment if my apple monitor had the switch on the front i would happily power it off at night almost every piece of computer equipment i own use has the switch on the back including external hard drives and modems why i hope front mounted switches become the norm and soon rich richard c long long mcntsh enet dec com ludicrous speed go decwrl mcntsh enet dec com long dark helmet long mcntsh dec decwrl enet dec com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lc ii slowdowns drg biomath mda uth tmc edu david gutierrez writes in article l sb b w w tfsquad mn org douce tfsquad mn org andrew geweke writes i am currently managing among many other labs a lab with three lc iis a mac plus with mb external hd and a laserwriter ii ntx my problem the lc iis seem to intermittently slow to a snail s pace this happens intermittently to macs in our department ranging from iisi s to a quadra i can end the slowdown immediately by unplugging the ethernet cable from the mac it seems that something on the network puts out these packet storms every few days these storms have the effect of making our macs slow down to a crawl thank you very much these computers behave exactly like what you re describing now my question i am running on the lowest of all budgets public education how can i analyze this all i need is some sort of packet counter do any exist and where are they thanks again andrew geweke douce tfsquad mn org andrew geweke the firing squad bbs public access usenet mail and news saint paul minnesota
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day long in article npri npri com murphy npri npri com david p murphy wrote a cnn factiod in the last few months stated that of all the computers in the u s are left on hours a day days a week i don t recall cnn s source ljones utkvx utk edu leslie jones yeah but most of those are big hulking mainframes which have no monitors factoid fabricated or corrupted tidbit of ordinary information diluted ok dpm murphy npri npri com systems programmer at large when every one is dead cameron st the great game is finished alexandria va not before hurree babu kim bob brown
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors kept on hrs day long in article npri npri com murphy npri npri com david p murphy wrote a cnn factiod in the last few months stated that of all the computers in the u s are left on hours a day days a week i don t recall cnn s source ljones utkvx utk edu leslie jones here s something to add to the discussion newsgroups misc activism progressive from james p reynolds jpr lehigh edu subject when you re not using it turn it off date mon mar gmt lines research has shown that the majority of the time that the united states to million personal computers are on they are not actively being used in addition to percent are left running at night and on weekends computer equipment is now the fastest growing private sector use of electricity computers alone are believed to account for five percent of commercial electricity consumption and may account for ten percent by the year if you are one of those who leave them on after you re done it would be a big environmental benefit if you would just turn it off when you re not using it it only takes a second or two to do also the majority of the power your computer uses is not consumed by the computer itself but by the monitor if you can t turn the computer off then please just turn off the monitor the u s environmental protection agency has formed an alliance with computer manufacturers to promote the introduction of energy efficient pcs that power down automatically when not being used and thus reduce the air pollution caused by power generation these new computers will save enough electricity to power both vermont and new hampshire and save up to billion u s dollars in annual electricity bills look for the special epa energy star logo when you buy computers they should be available in one to two years according to the epa studies the energy saved will prevent co emissions of million tons annually the equivalent of five million automobiles also tons of so and tons of nitrogen oxide emissions will be saved these are the major pollutants responsible for acid rain please do your part be responsible if you re not using it then just turn it off information herein is partially taken from the information please almanac page and the u s envirnomental protection agency s environmental news please redistribute this message to every computer bulletin board network memo system etc you can think of archive it and post it every so often if you can let s get the word out to everyone we need to be responsible about the way we consume jim reynolds end
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day in article r tscinn bd srvr engin umich edu chyang engin umich edu chung hsiung yang writes in article apr utkvx utk edu ljones utkvx utk edu leslie jones writes a cnn factiod in the last few months stated that of all the computers in the u s are left on hours a day days a week i don t recall cnn s source yeah but they probably included industries and educational institutions that uses mostly work stations suns dec ibm rs etc etc which turns monitor off if left untouched for min none of the suns decs or rs s i ve used have turned off the monitor automatically matthew t russotto russotto eng umd edu russotto wam umd edu some news readers expect disclaimer here just say no to police searches and seizures make them use force not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re svga monitors and centris the real story 
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iif iig slot there seems to be a p pds slot in the above printers what is it mark law aukuni ac nz m perry faculty of law auckland university new zealand
comp.sys.mac.hardware	active matrix clr pb i know that apple is working on an active matrix color powerbook when is it going to come out i heard on rumor that it will be in two months and another that it will be seen at the macworld expo in boston what s the word jon hutchison jh r andrew cmu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day from james p reynolds jpr ns cc lehigh edu organization lehigh university subject when you re not using it turn it off to multiple recipients of list c l c l psuvm bitnet research has shown that the majority of the time that the united states to million personal computers are on they are not actively being used in addition to percent are left running at night and on weekends computer equipment is now the fastest growing private sector use of electricity computers alone are believed to account for five percent of commercial electricity consumption and may account for ten percent by the year if you are one of those who leave them on after you re done it would be a big environmental benefit if you would just turn it off when you re not using it it only takes a second or two to do also the majority of the power your computer uses is not consumed by the computer itself but by the monitor if you can t turn the computer off then please just turn off the monitor the u s environmental protection agency has formed an alliance with computer manufacturers to promote the introduction of energy efficient pcs that power down automatically when not being used and thus reduce the air pollution caused by power generation these new computers will save enough electricity to power both vermont and new hampshire and save up to billion u s dollars in annual electricity bills look for the special epa energy star logo when you buy computers they should be available in one to two years according to the epa studies the energy saved will prevent co emissions of million tons annually the equivalent of five million automobiles also tons of so and tons of nitrogen oxide emissions will be saved these are the major pollutants responsible for acid rain please do your part be responsible if you re not using it then just turn it off information herein is partially taken from the information please almanac page and the u s envirnomental protection agency s environmental news please redistribute this message to every computer bulletin board network memo system etc you can think of archive it and post it every so often if you can let s get the word out to everyone we need to be responsible about the way we consume jim reynolds susanmarie harrington university of michigan
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what s that chime it happened to my classic ii once at startup after the usual powerup tone there were chimes kinda like do st mi st sol st do nd or st c st e st g nd c on the music scale and it hanged before giving the happy mac i had to re powerup this was asked before but i can t remember the answer i ve tried to find the answer from the faqs and other ftp sites but to no avail can anyone tell me what those unusual chimes mean a spurious memory check error thanks willie
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris clock adjustment i was reading a review of the centris in this months macworld and the reviewer said that for you could make an adjustment on the clock speed of the chip and change it from mhz to mhz i haven t heard of this before and i don t think that this is the chip replacement with fpu that i have seen so much talk about anyone have any ideas cwera du edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris clock adjustment the article was probably referring to changing the clock oscillator in a manner similar to that done on quadra s and iisi s i haven t read a report of this actually being done on a centris but supposedly this also works on q q and centris machines
comp.sys.mac.hardware	rgb owners what kind of power cable came with your monitor here s the scoop for the past two years i have been using an se with a sony s and a lapis video card this past month i bought a quadra and am now using the sony on it my se has been shipped home to my father who is planning on getting an apple monitor the trinitron one my question is this what kind of power cord will he get with the apple monitor does it come with two types as i recall one can hook up the power cord of an apple monitor to the back of a machine such as my quadra however for my father s se there is no extra plug which allows use of the se s power supply he needs to plug it into the socket separately so does the monitor come with a cable that will allow him to do this will have to buy a different cable if yes where can he purchase such a cable or apple kind enough to provide both types of cables thanks in advance derek derek fong email thewho plume mit edu dept of physical oceanography thewho darla whoi edu bldg a clark laboratory massachusetts institute of technology woods hole oceanographic institution cambridge ma woods hole ma x
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re macintosh weenies suck scsi disks in article c wdmk jrn hawk cs ukans edu s abg hawk cs ukans edu unknown class user writes i think the subject title says it all anybody that relies on a scsi dick for stoarage is a pain in the ass looks like someone left their terminal unattended tttttt eeeee vv vv eeeee tt ee vv vv ee tt eeee vv vv eeee steve liu tt ee vvv ee drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu tt eeeee v eeeee drlovemd jhuvms hcf jhu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	where to get power cord to plug non apple monitor into quadra power supply i have a sony s whch i would like to hook up so that i get its power though my quadra s power supply ie if i had an apple monitor i could plug the monitor directly into the computer so that when i hit the power button the keyboard both the monitor and computer go on and when i shut down both go off is there an extension cord type cable i can buy which allows me to plug my existing power cord into and then plug this extension cable into my quadra any thoughts and comments would be appreciated thanks in advance derek derek fong email thewho plume mit edu dept of physical oceanography thewho darla whoi edu bldg a clark laboratory massachusetts institute of technology woods hole oceanographic institution cambridge ma woods hole ma x
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day in article r fp innsua mojo eng umd edu russotto eng umd edu matthew t russotto writes in article r tscinn bd srvr engin umich edu chyang engin umich edu chung hsiung yang writes in article apr utkvx utk edu ljones utkvx utk edu leslie jones writes a cnn factiod in the last few months stated that of all the computers in the u s are left on hours a day days a week i don t recall cnn s source yeah but they probably included industries and educational institutions that uses mostly work stations suns dec ibm rs etc etc which turns monitor off if left untouched for min none of the suns decs or rs s i ve used have turned off the monitor automatically maybe you should contact your schools officials and make them consider installing the necessary softwares or hardwares that allows the unix works stations to shuts off its monitor when left untouched it does save a lot of energy chung yang matthew t russotto russotto eng umd edu russotto wam umd edu some news readers expect disclaimer here just say no to police searches and seizures make them use force not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re svga monitors and centris the real story the origional bit is missing but long short follows the origional poster asked if he she could use any old vga svga monitor with a centris hence title the answer ot this question is an unqualified yes you can use any old vga svga monitor with a centris you do need an adaptor i use a mac vga q from james engineering to run between the two machines the adaptor i have mentioned will convert a centris to a three row vga svga pin adaptor for your monitor now the special interest disclaimer the above answer is correct for using a vga monitor at x resolution if your monitor will sync to khz horizontal the above adaptor will allow you to choose x resolution i prefer this on my s then you have the question of matching adaptors and sync rates i would advocate calling james engineering because they seem to have a clue as to the comment by the person who said don t bother calling apple because they will treat you like an idiot this is totally untrue apple will treat you like a f king assanine idiot for even considering going third party and if you want this treatment wants you to pay for their thech support line the supposedly compitantly one and then still has no fu clue personal experience also the tech suppport for the vga monitor makers doesn t see to extend to macs sony magnavox in addition to this to find out the info you will have to call dealers unless you can find the sync rates elsewhere as ads like hardware that fits that rate monitor resolutions give the most favorable rating which usually means you can get this if you use a specialized application video card i e well you can get a resolution x on this super smelly sock monitor that will let you display two full pages side by side all you need is our reasonably priced oder eater video board for and it will give you an ultra fast horizontal sync rate of six fast kilohertz and three khz vertical note with the sony at least on the centris built in video board using an x adaptor there is a boarder of an inch to the sides of the image after adjusting the horizontal width as favorably as possible using a x adaptor this can be reduced to about half an inch a
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day in article c x x vp usenet ucs indiana edu chang hsu liu cliu silver ucs indiana edu writes from james p reynolds jpr ns cc lehigh edu organization lehigh university subject when you re not using it turn it off to multiple recipients of list c l c l psuvm bitnet research has shown that the majority of the time that the united states to million personal computers are on they are not more quote deleted it every so often if you can let s get the word out to everyone we need to be responsible about the way we consume jim reynolds susanmarie harrington university of michigan ok i have a question why why do people copy the article and the only new thing they add to the post is there name i m not picking on this person i ve seen a few of these is it just a mistake am i missing something is it some unknown net equette i missed somewhere i skip over all the quoted material since i ve already read it and look for the non quoted material and all i get is the name addition is this supposed to me i agree or i second this or what sorry just wondering if i missed something somewhere along the line
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerbook duo memory system slow hi do any of you hardware gurus out there know what kind of memory architecture apple uses in the powerbook duos or in the powerbook in general what are the factors that make the duo so slow compared to a desktop machine running the same processor at the same speed mhz how many wait states are in the memory system etc what kind of a data bus does it use bit or bit it s still slow when plugged into a duodock anyone know in general what kind of shortcuts notebook manufacturers take when making notebooks i heard of a dx notebook getting a whopping mips rating a similar desktop machine should be getting about times that i guess avery
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra marginal video we are having a problem with a quadra that has stumped a couple of techs sent to us by the vendor as well as us this quadra is stuffed with mb ram mb vram and some large disk mb i think what happens is that after a certain variable interval of time the video circuitry loses vertical sync it is quite apparent that the mac cpu is still ok and the problem really seems to lie with the video circuitry since you can still save your documents quit your aplpications even pull down menus etc only the display is scrolling lik crazy so it s pretty hard to hit menu items we had the original logic board replaced twice now and the same problem has been occurring on all boards although the inteval between occurrences has varied the first board had this problem every about hr more often if the cache was turned off yes off this is the only symptom that is not obviously related to the video circuitry after all the cache is on the cpu right the second board had the problem every about minutes we did not keep it rather we put the original back the current board we have has this problem a lot less often has gone about a week without doing it but did it twice within an hour yesterday the technicians that have come out to try to figure it out seemed pretty sharp and tried a number of sensible things most of which we had previously tried ourselves anyway these included swapping the ram swapping the vram swapping monitors different apple rgb and apple rgb swapping cables disconnecting hd and booting from floppy sacrificing various small mammals here are some other facts when we put a rasterops procolor on the nubus the problem is fixed it does not occur with the internal video or the procolor video out the vendor cannot reproduce the problem back in their shop on the boards that exhibit it in our lab apple is said to be getting a little bit pissed off at shipping us boards that they cannot find anything wrong with and getting them shipped back as faulty according to us here are some speculations i bet that neither apple nor the vendor has tested these boards with that much ram and vram on them simultaneaously which may have something to do with their finding it hard to reproduce the problem though we can reproduce it with just mb of ram so this is probably a red herring the vendor s representative blames metal in your walls claims that our walls have metal in them which interferes with the mac s operation we have another in the lab which works like a charm though it s not in the exact same spot please don t tell me this is probably it i do not want to believe it it s probably not poltergeists since they do not have badges to get past security at the entrance to our site has anyone any ideas please please email as well as posting cause i seem to be spending a lot of time rebooting my mac lately and have a lot less time available to read news thank you in advance carlo tiana nasa ames research center carlo vision arc nasa gov carlo cvs rochester edu carlo white stanford edu we always remember you have a choice carlo vision arc nasa gov
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re rgb owners what kind of power cable came with your monitor in article r sshinnpvq senator bedfellow mit edu thewho athena mit edu derek a fong wrote what kind of power cord will he get with the apple monitor does it come with two types no i recently bought an lc ii with a monitor the monitor comes with the type of power cable that plugs into the switched outlet on the back of most larger macs since the lc ii doesn t have one of these outlets there was an extra standard power cable included with the computer for use with the monitor but it was in the computer box not the monitor box it s not as if the cables are particularly expensive though at the most john werner werner soe berkeley edu uc berkeley school of education
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re asante ethernet adapter for lciii math chip in article c syk js ie utoronto ca andy ie utoronto ca andy sun writes hi i have been told by a local sales that asante has come out with this lciii pds ethernet adapter with an optional socket on the board my question is will the fpu performance degrade will i put the on the pds card socket instead of on the motherboard itself intuitively the math co processor should always be placed close to the cpu but i am not sure how good apple s so called processor direct slot is when it comes to throughout does anyone know the answer to this or have any experience with the asante lciii ethernet adapter thanks in advance from what i ve heard the pds slot clock is only mhz to be compatible with the old lc style boards while the fpu socket close to the cpu is clocked at mhz i guess a board designed for the lciii can get a mhz clock from the extended pds socket real life thomas t rnblom email thomas tornblom nexus comm se snail mail communicator nexus ab phone box fax s uppsala sweden
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re where to get power cord to plug non apple monitor into quadra power supply in r t finnq c senator bedfellow mit edu thewho athena mit edu derek a fong writes is there an extension cord type cable i can buy which allows me to plug my existing power cord into and then plug this extension cable into my quadra there are two approaches if your power cord is the kind that detaches from the back of the monitor most common you can get a replacement power cord that will go from the monitor to the back of the computer you can get an adpater that connects to the plug end of the existing power cord and provides the proper end that plugs into the back of the computer both cost about the same aprox and are available from many computer stores clone dealers are usually better at having these things and at good prices power cords are standard so you don t have to go looking for some special thing at a mac store
comp.sys.mac.hardware	hardware that fits mail order have anyone dealt with hardware that fits before i have seen their ad in both macworld and macuser and decided to try them when i needed a new disk the result was not satisfactory and i was just wondering if i was just an isolated case i like to send a letter to the president of hardware that fits do anyone know the address is it the same address as the one i return the products to mei mei su software engineer email mms ltx tr portal com ltx corporation meisu netcom com disclaimer this is a personnal statement only nothing official
comp.sys.mac.hardware	radius videovision i have an opportunity to buy a radius videovision board for about of normal street price which i believe is due to a change in the board architecture i vaguely maybe remember that there was some kind of serious problem with this board which does composite pal secam to s video composite etc coversions plus also generating quicktime movies etc macweek was generally complimentary about it in the april th issue does anyone have any information on this board such as is it the one which has been superceeded what about an upgrade if so etc i d be very curious to hear from you thanks b w insert usual disclaimers here bob wier east texas state u commerce texas wier merlin etsu edu watch for address change
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re rumours about new duos brian v hughes hades coos dartmouth edu wrote bredell tdb uu se mats bredell writes in the official paper i got from apple about the new docking station apple themselves called it the duodock plus what paper is that it s been on the price list here at dartmouth since they released it and it has never been called the duodock plus it was a paper from apple sweden that announced some new products the new docking station was only one of them and the paper arrived before it showed up on the price list i don t know if it s still called the duodock plus in the price list it could be a mistake by someone at apple sweden mats mats bredell mats bredell udac uu se uppsala university computing center udac ph department of medical systems fax sweden think straight be gay
comp.sys.mac.hardware	clock speed hello new to this area so i have read about some upgrades for the lc ii doing some modification to make the thing run faster is the performa about the same as an lc and if so would the homemade speed upgrade work thanks brad
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re mac portable vs powerbook answers eric choi p f n z fidonet org eric choi writes can the internal hard drive of the macportable upgraded to larger capacity w is there any third party modem greater than bps with fax option p s i notice the macportable batteries are avalable thru the apple catalog eric choi internet eric choi p f n z fidonet org psi makes an internal fax modem for the map portable but asks too much for it retail i d buy an external and save about there is a manufacturer that still makes internal hd s for the portable they re listed in some of the catalog magazines for apple stuff you can find at bookstores if i see it again i ll post it but again you might want to just add a small lightweight external hd built for the powerbooks you d be able to use it with a new computer some day any other mac portable questions i ll have to cry uncle don t blame me i voted for xxxxxxx gene theporch raider net gene wright theporch raider net the macinteresteds of nashville
comp.sys.mac.hardware	outbound laptops questions looking for answers since the demise of the outbound company what options would exist for me if i were to buy one of their laptops since the outbounds e etc use mac plus roms won t that severly limit using future applications what is a reasonable price for one of their laptops the prices i ve seen seem extremely high considering the limited choices now how reliable have they proven any answers would be helpful gene jackatak raider net gene wright jackatak raider net
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re stereo sound problem on mac games in apr gallant apple com steve bollinger buzz apple com writes use the sound manager and work fine on all machines the more of the story is to developers don t cheat really i am absolutely positively not allowed to do what i am about to do but i m going say it anyway stop cheating on sound really soon you will be sorry as even those without external speakers will be disappointed with your sound on future hardware the grace period is about to end the sound manager is understandable now and works pretty well and will work even better soon so use it don t be silly using the sound manager on a quadra is very well but using sm on any of the low end machines doesn t simply work for a decent action game since it just steals too much time from the cpu this is a fact by writing directly to the hardware on an se it is possible to have simultaneous channels of sampled sound khz for a cost of approx cycles exactly how would you do that using the sm pray tell the correct thing to do is to use the sm on the machines that can carry that extra load using the sm means and to write directly to the sound hardware on the machines that can t it s not the politically correct thing but from the developers point of view it is christer ericson internet christer cs umu se tel department of computer science university of umea s umea sweden
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re duo price reduction and the michigan state university pricing of the systems powerbook duo portable m ll a mac powerbook duo m ram m hd promotion expires hmm new duo machines to be released sincerely lars lars sundstrom email sund tde lth se lund university phone int dept of applied electronics fax int p o box s lund sweden
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help identifying this card i have an ethernet card that i took out off an old lc the card is manufactured by asante on it i can read asante tech inc copyright maccon lc rev b the card has an fpu socket on it it provides thin ethernet connector and there s another connector on it which resembels to phone connectors my questions are will this card work on any other model than lc serie given that it s a pds card will it work with the iisi pds slot i think there may be a probleme because the lc has bit wide slots what s that other conncetor on the card is anyone interested in it i can ship it to any cee country sham u ya tha s seif u lam yaghib i ibaa oueichek oueichek imag imag fr ya jamal al majd i fi l kutub i lab de genie informatique lgi kablak i t tareekh u fi thulmaten imag inpg baadak i staula ala sh shuhub i av felix viallet grenoble
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re macintosh weenies suck scsi disks from article c wdmk jrn hawk cs ukans edu by s abg hawk cs ukans edu unknown class user i think the subject title says it all anybody that relies on a scsi dick for stoarage is a pain in the ass saying things like that incline one to believe that you can t get it scsi to work for your setup too bad i ve daisy chained scsi devices off my mac without a problem limit is scsi devices in the daisy chain if it isn t working for you it s really better to state the problem unless all you really intend to do is try to get nasty e mail in that case perhaps you would be better off posting to alt masochistic type of newsgroup callan csd csd uwm edu joel e callan hey why do you think i have the answer n th street may you sit on the tack of success milwaukee wi and rise to the occasion callan csd csd uwm edu joel e callan hey why do you think i have the answer n th street may you sit on the tack of success milwaukee wi and rise to the occasion
comp.sys.mac.hardware	simms prices i m looking for the best source for simms in the usa i m not looking for the lowest prices but rather for the best quality simms and the one with the lowest rate of defective simms i know the chip merchant has good prices but they seems to have a high rate of returned simms does anyone know how many simms you have to purchase to obtain quantity discount thank you sham u ya tha s seif u lam yaghib i ibaa oueichek oueichek imag imag fr ya jamal al majd i fi l kutub i lab de genie informatique lgi kablak i t tareekh u fi thulmaten imag inpg baadak i staula ala sh shuhub i av felix viallet grenoble
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare jeff lab queensu ca peter pundy writes even better than that how does a based amiga perform in daily tasks compared to my based iici answer except in a very few cases i get my butt kicked by the amiga a similar reason is why people at work used to seeing sco unix running on a are suprised when they see my sun at home running faster w a mhz the sun was designed from the ground up for unix the pc wasn t this is why you need a gargantuan processor to run windows the basic design of the box is all wrong would ve been better if ms had put most of windows on a plug in rom card from day one priced at or so people woulda loved it apple had the right idea just stumbled a bit in the execution pete peter l wargo wargopl sun soe clarkson edu e mail saves trees documentation it also makes the enable software x world smaller
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra marginal video in article apr galileo cc rochester edu carlo merlin cvs rochester edu carlo tiana writes we are having a problem with a quadra that has stumped a couple of techs sent to us by the vendor as well as us this quadra is stuffed with mb ram mb vram and some large disk mb i think what happens is that after a certain variable interval of time the video circuitry loses vertical sync it is quite apparent that the mac cpu is still ok and the problem really seems to lie with the video circuitry since you can still save your documents quit your aplpications even pull down menus etc only the display is scrolling lik crazy so it s pretty hard to hit menu items other info deleted has anyone any ideas please please email as well as posting cause i seem to be spending a lot of time rebooting my mac lately and have a lot less time available to read news are you sure it s not a problem caused by software i ve seen this sort of effect when a runaway program which could be caused by an init conflict for instance accidentally wacks on a register in the video hardware have you tried booting with no extensions and then letting the q just sit there in the finder you might also want to try changing to bit addressing yes i know you can t access your full mb of ram it s just an experiment as the video hardware registers can t be accessed then another thing to try as a recovery measure is to use something like quickkeys to change the pixel depth of the display this reprograms some of the video hardware registers and may allow sync to be restored dale adams
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re apple gc video card a friend of mine recently acquired an gc card for his iisi and was wondering why it always starts up in black and white i know there have been numerous reports about the worth of the gc but i was wondering if anyone could elaborate a little more on the subject any replies encouraged thanks in ad vance joe kasanic i ve had similar problems w other board types and the problem is not a result of the gc board try zapping the pram by holding down command option p r durring startup you will have to reset everything to your previous preferences the date time remain intact but the video board will start remembering it s previous settings anthony d saxton elenay creations
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re hardware that fits mail order i ordered an external floppy drive from them years ago when i placed the order they said it was in stock and would ship the next day a week passed and no drive i called them up and they said they were out of stock and my drive should ship in weeks or so since i needed the drive right away both my internal hard drive and floppy were dead i cancelled my order and haven t dealt with them since chris kidwell ck andrew cmu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re appletalk imagewriter lq compatible needed in article apr dcc uchile cl bherrero cec uchile cl beltran herreros t writes since image writer lq was discontinued there is no apple talk printer with continous paper printer i would like to know is there are any possibility to connect an ibm compatible printer to an apple talk net directly or with a net serial hardware and if i need any other software to do it i ve have not found quite the solution yet the following comes from macuser s minifinders the grappler iisp is a dot matrix printer interface cartridge that emulates the imagewriter lqs includes networking and spooling software that allows multiple users orange micro if you find out any more information please let me know because in the future i have the same problem or if anyone else has the information please post thanks al
comp.sys.mac.hardware	recommendation for laser printer i m looking for recommendations for a laser printer it will be used mostly for text by a single user it doesn t need to be a postscript printer any advice would be appreciated
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day roy mchip med nyu edu roy smith writes i wonder how hard it would be i e what it would add to the cost to design desktop machines with a power saver feature built in which would reduce power consumption automatically if the machine is idle for more than some amount of time about as hard as it was to design the color classic since it s monitor behaves in just this manner hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re performa or lc demon desire wright edu not a boomer writes performa classic ii performa lc ii performa lcii with monitor modem and software performa lcii w monitor modem and software performa xx lc iii performa lciii with monitor modem and software do we detect a trend here people the performas are made to be low cost business solutions the xx have bundled software modems etc the performas are made to be low cost widely distributed sold at sears home machines not business machines they were developed to compete with the retail outlet home computer market because they have no retail price you might be able to get a steeper discount on them shop around sears is probably going to have the best price around most of the time based on the number they can purchase and stuff like that as far as the monitors go buy rd party much cheaper not really the newer peformas come with what is really a third party monitor that apple has put their name on and called it the performa plus display essentially it is a vga monitor quite cheap hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re apple gc video card in article apr tcs las vegas nv us elenay creations tcs las vegas nv us anthony d saxton writes a friend of mine recently acquired an gc card for his iisi and was wondering why it always starts up in black and white i know there have been numerous reports about the worth of the gc but i was wondering if anyone could elaborate a little more on the subject any replies encouraged thanks in ad vance you may have been emailed this but the iisi s power supply is not rated to handle the gc board remember when the si came out and everyone complained about it s power supply this is one result of apple providing a low cost computer and i think they got a lot of flack for having a relatively high end computer at the time anyways that couldn t even support their own video board even if this isn t what is causing your problems you might develop one later eric
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re rumours about new duos bredell tdb uu se mats bredell writes it was a paper from apple sweden that announced some new products the new docking station was only one of them and the paper arrived before it showed up on the price list i don t know if it s still called the duodock plus in the price list it could be a mistake by someone at apple sweden ah ok i didn t realize that you were talking about an apple division other than appleus appleus being the main division is the one that contains what most people feel are the correct names and configurations for the majority of apple customers and it is generally assumed that you are talking about appleus when you just say apple at least that s how it has always been in this newsgroup all other apple divisions are apparantly free to change names and configurations if they feel like it i know that apple canada does this kind of stuff all the time it s not a mistake it s apple sweden giving a different name to an apple product other than what appleus calls it hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	wanted adb mouse keybd wanted apple adb mouse and keyboard contact paul gribble at above email address asap paul g
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re iif iig slot in article apr ccu aukuni ac nz mark perry markp ccu aukuni ac nz writes there seems to be a p pds slot in the above printers what is it it is a factory testing slot the test rig connects to the connector and verifies proper board operation kevin s kevin hester disclaimer nothing i say has anything to do kevinh apple com with apple computer the red zone is for portable beer brewer loading and unloading of passenger vehicles only
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple s new keybd what can people tell me about apple s new keyboard the one that is designed to be more ergonomically friendly i have begun to experience wrist and hand pains using a standard keyboard and using a powerbook what can people with similar experiences tell me replies to email please paul g
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitor pinouts needed i was wondering if someone could send me the pinouts to the apple and rgb monitors those parts of the docs seem to have been misplaced around here thanks a lot for your help kevin kevin o lepard internet lepard mayo edu disclaimer these opinions are mine alone and do not necessarily represent those of the mayo foundation mayo clinic or any other person or institution
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day gary sager gsager heliacal eng sun com wrote btw when encouraging employees to power off monitors when leaving work it was pointed out that this should only be done with monitors with the power switch on front there was some indication that monitors with power switches on the rear are not designed to tolerate lots of power cycling this may only apply to the monitors we use but might be worth checking if you happen to have a monitor with the switch in back i m not an expert but having spent much too much of my life looking for the power switch or the brightness control or the de gauss etc etc etc it is my firm belief that the only reason any controls switches knobs whatever in places where they are hard to reach is because the designers put them there deliberately the real question is weather this is because of stupidity or maliciousness charles herbig unable to locate coffee operator halted masc ucssun sdsu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day research has shown that the majority of the time that the united states to million personal computers are on they are not more quote deleted ok i have a question why why do people copy the article and the only new thing they add to the post is there name i m not picking on this person i ve seen a few of these is it just a mistake am i missing something is it some unknown net equette i missed somewhere i skip over all the quoted material since i ve already read it and look for the non quoted material and all i get is the name addition is this supposed to me i agree or i second this or what sorry just wondering if i missed something somewhere along the line i copy relevant articles like this and post em on local bbses not everyone has newsgroup access kelley thomas kelley boylan powerpc ibm austin kelleyb austin ibm com i buy and pay for my own opinions
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re why the drive speeds differ in article apr mcontent apana org au thomas n a krebs mcontent apana org au writes the most likely explanation may have something to do with the fact that a greater density of information exists on the larger capacity disk drive than the smaller one if your running the drive on a mac i would recommend a shareware utility called timedrive which tests seek scsi throughput and rotational speed this utility should let you know what the differences are between the drives the views expressed in this posting those of the individual author only bbs number maccontent is victoriaus first iconic bbs larger drives tend to have multipule platters which can allow adjacent bits to be read in parallel resulting in higher throughput they also have higher spindle speeds which leads to both increased throughput and reduced seek times due to reduction of rotational latency erik speckman
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re deskwriter driver v problems in article byrne husc harvard edu laurence byrne byrne scws harvard edu writes has anyone had any success or experience with the hp deskwriter v drivers the new driver has a nice save as default option which claims to record your paper size font substitution settings etc for future has it happened to anyone that while printing a beep is heard and a message is displayed of the sort such and such a window was closed because the finder did not have enough memory or am i the only one suffering from this delusion marc bizer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cd question hi there i have a mac lc and consider buying cd i ve been told however that the double speed of cd is achievable only on machines with scsi the double speed is a prerequisite for photocd multisession capability which i need which means i seem to gain nothing compared with say cd any comments thanx michael m savitski tel desy deutsches elektronen synchrotron fax notkestr d hamburg germany internet h sav dsyibm desy de decnet vxdesy savitski
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help identifying this card in article c xpzk f imag fr ibaa oueichek oueichek imag fr writes i have an ethernet card that i took out off an old lc the card is manufactured by asante on it i can read asante tech inc copyright maccon lc rev b the card has an fpu socket on it it provides thin ethernet connector and there s another connector on it which resembels to phone connectors my questions are will this card work on any other model than lc serie given that it s a pds card will it work with the iisi pds slot i think there may be a probleme because the lc has bit wide slots it probably won t work with any other lc the ones i have for the lc ii are rev d no it won t work in the iisi s pds slot since it s a pds while the lc has the pds the iisi and se share the same kind of card what s that other conncetor on the card that s the baset ethernet connector chad e jones these are the days you might fill with network manager laughter until you break these days you ucla physiological science might feel a shaft of light make its way cjones physci ucla edu across your face and when you do you ll voice know how it was meant to be see the signs fax and know their meaning maniacs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re what s that chime in article apr nmt edu changw nmt edu willie chang writes it happened to my classic ii once at startup after the usual powerup tone there were chimes kinda like do st mi st sol st do nd or st c st e st g nd c on the music scale and it hanged before giving the happy mac i had to re powerup this was asked before but i can t remember the answer i ve tried to find the answer from the faqs and other ftp sites but to no avail can anyone tell me what those unusual chimes mean a spurious memory check error thanks willie those chimes indicate a hardware failure of some type during system startup one thing that can cause the chimes is a cable that has become a bit loose next time you power down the computer check that all cables are on tight
comp.sys.mac.hardware	swii on se system or i m planning on getting a stylewriter ii for my mac se mb ram hd two k floppy drives do any of you out there have any recommendations as to whether running system is better or worse than switching to i don t do much real work on this machine any more but would like to keep it for word processing using word and don t see much advantage to going to word since it is slower any help or comments would be appreciated thanks in advance martin lin triumvir cco caltech edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quickdraw gx was re when are the rest of the inside mac s due in article apr msc cornell edu maynard leah msc cornell edu maynard j handley writes does gx take the place of bit qd or add to it right now bit is kinda aesthetically a pain in a few places because of hacks upon hacks to maintain compatibility with original qd i think of things like where you have to cast cgrafports to grafports and such it would be a lot cleaner to ditch this entire mess and start over do we get that maynard sorry for the delay in replying your message only showed up today apr on apple com quickdraw gx is not a replacement for quickdraw the two of them live quite happily together you may write an app that only uses gx if you want or you may write a hybrid app that uses both suptayoo dave
comp.sys.mac.hardware	hp deskjet c will it work i am boring my sister hp deskjet c for the weekend and i was wondering in their was any drivers for it available some where that would allow me to use it with my mac se i have a copy of macprint but i do think that i have a driver for the c i would be happy to get it working in black white but if there is away to get the color working that would be better any ideas someone regards robert r hardesty hardesty meiko com customer support engineer tele meiko scientific corporation fax trapelo rd waltham ma
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re upgrading a mac plus or se to use a superdrive in article apr andromeda rutgers edu murray andromeda rutgers edu murray karstadt writes hello out in networld we have a lab of old macs ses and pluses we don t have enough money to buy all new machines so we are considering buying a few superdrives for our old macs to allow folks with high density disks to use our equipment i was wondering what experiences good or bad people have had with this sort of upgrade murray murray andromeda rutgers edu murry why don t you just shell out a couple more dollars and get a floptical they can read high density disks mb as well as flopticals mb the price of flopticals right now range from s s sunny
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cd question double speed performance from a cd drive does not require scsi interfacing the resultant kbps speed is well within the transfer rate of an lc in other words i believe you have been given incorrect information
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cd question in article h sav dsyibm desy de michael desy de h sav dsyibm desy de michael m savitski writes hi there i have a mac lc and consider buying cd i ve been told however that the double speed of cd is achievable only on machines with scsi wrong the cd external is just a plain ol scsi device the double speed is a prerequisite for photocd multisession capability which i need no multisession capability and double speed are two different thing its just that the newer cd rom drives have both capability multisession means that when you put more pictures on a photo cd after the first session the drive can read and display them double speeds just transfer any type of data excluding sound at around double the speed which means i seem to gain nothing compared with say cd cd is not multisession capable this means that you lose the ability to add any more pictures after the first time must buy a new cd finally since the cd is not a double speed drive it will require twice as long to transfer data excluding sound michael m savitski tel desy deutsches elektronen synchrotron fax notkestr d hamburg germany internet h sav dsyibm desy de decnet vxdesy savitski
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re mac oriented bbss i m also interested in mac based bbs but not in chicago i would greatly appreciate it if someone could post a list of bbss in the la area preferably but also thanks dan sure thing here are the firstclass systems in those area codes macvalley online burbank ca the drawing board hacienda heights ca bps hollywood ca sangabriel valley mug pasadena ca and here is all of california unformated sorry middle earth anaheim ca byte out of the apple benecia ca planet bmug berkley ca macvalley online burbank ca gentle rain forum claremont ca cyberspace bbs culver city ca allnet cupertino ca the boy s club cupertino ca meme net fresno ca sierra mouse trap grass valley ca the drawing board hacienda heights ca the public bbs half moon bay ca bps hollywood ca imagine net irvine ca enet la canada ca guerilla symbiotics la verne ca macrocosm livermore ca onenet los altos ca macisland los angeles ca macshasta mt shasta ca foundation newhall ca sangabriel valley mug pasadena ca gooey bbs point mugu ca servant christian bbs redondo beach ca sbamug redondo beach ca a ez ok san diego ca this is not emptv san diego ca harry s bbs san francisco ca bare bones bbs san jose ca city connection san jose ca macdaze santa barbara ca mac magic santa barbara ca crumal s dimension santa clara ca casa del cyborg santa cruz ca beacon comminque simi valley ca channel z simi valley ca jake and the mac man solona beach ca iguana bbs sunnyvale ca vizability walnut creek ca jason the author s opinions are independant of those of adrenaline online adrenaline online firstclass charlotte vt adrenaline com fido onenet macunion fidonet usenet conferences megs of files dedicated to mac users cyberpunks civil libertarians and mecha gamers
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quickdraw gx was re when are the rest of the inside mac s due in article r bi s b apple com opstad apple com david opstad writes sorry for the delay in replying your message only showed up today apr on apple com quickdraw gx is not a replacement for quickdraw the two of them live quite happily together you may write an app that only uses gx if you want or you may write a hybrid app that uses both suptayoo this is something i asked before but i don t think i got an answer or maybe i lost the answer or maybe it s just an obvious question will the gx stuff on line docs etc be available on the develop cds or will it only go out to people in the developer s program and such just curious steve lane
comp.sys.mac.hardware	first tech has anyone dealt with first tech based in austin tx if so what has your experince been thanks james
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris flaky a rep at the dealer actually it s a university order center so they don t have any immediate financial interest told me that they have been having lots of problems with their centris he didn t go into details but mentioned problems with the floppy drive and intermittent problems with printing files it sounded to me like they were having both hardware problems and software compatibility problems with the machine he s not recommending the centris to anybody he says to consider a centris or a iivx why he would recommend a iivx over an lciii i don t know but that s what he said so what does the net think did the dealer just get one flaky machine or did apple send the c out the door too early is your c working just great or is it buggy too jay scott scott cs uiuc edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cd question in article h sav dsyibm desy de michael desy de h sav dsyibm desy de michael m savitski writes hi there i have a mac lc and consider buying cd i ve been told however that the double speed of cd is achievable only on machines with scsi this is completely false the double speed is a prerequisite for photocd multisession capability which i need this is also false what you need for multisession capability is multisession capability which is based on the firmware and electronics not the drive speed i ll admit though that i have not seen a multisession capable drive that isn t double speed which means i seem to gain nothing compared with say cd the above proves to be false any comments the apple cd is an excellent double speed multi session photocd capable drive so are drives based on the slightly faster toshiba xm some companies selling such drives are spin peripherals a bargain at and pli a company i hate and relax technologies a company i know little about other than that they are a longtime player in mac mailorder which is usually a good sign the nec cdr is also a good choice nec s own mechanism i think clubmac sells it for around thanx your welcome ooh but now i see your from germany most of the mailorder info does you little good i guess if not spin peripherals club mac relax tech nothing wrong with the apple though which is based on a sony mechanism and speed identical to the nec the toshiba s speed advantage is very slight in average access time a minor plus and in data transfer rate a slightly more important plus good luck mark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris flaky scott cs uiuc edu jay scott writes a rep at the dealer actually it s a university order center so they don t have any immediate financial interest told me that they have been having lots of problems with their centris he didn t go into details but mentioned problems with the floppy drive and intermittent problems with printing files it sounded to me like they were having both hardware problems and software compatibility problems with the machine he s not recommending the centris to anybody he says to consider a centris or a iivx why he would recommend a iivx over an lciii i don t know but that s what he said so what does the net think did the dealer just get one flaky machine or did apple send the c out the door too early is your c working just great or is it buggy too my is working great i haven t heard of any problems sounds to me like your dealer doesn t know what he s talking about it s pretty irresponsible to not reccomend the centris on the basis of problems with one machine recommending the iivx over the lciii doesn t make a lot of sense either if this person is so convinced the is buggy have they talked to apple about it or are they just assuming it s a problem with all of them terry
comp.sys.mac.hardware	unknown mac board national instruments nb dma i need help identifying this board that i found stuffed away in a corner as the title says all that is printed on it is national instruments nb dma it fits fine in my mac iici and snooper gives the very same name for the board it looks like it has an hp ib connector on the back of it and another connector on the top rows by pins it also looks like it has an intel processor on it a intel on an eeprom there is a sticker with the p n anybody ever seen or heard of one or better yet do you know what it does we are all clueless here our last option is to hook it up to our hp workstations and see if any smoke comes out thanks a lot kevin um i forget kmradke iastate edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re apple s new keybd i use the new keyboard with a iifx and i like it i am not a touch typist so some of the advantage is loss on me but there is difference and less stress on my wrists dan dan stratton stratton cwis unomaha edu macs mercedes and money too much is not enough my views are my own
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple mb hd in powerdrive ext case i d like to install an apple quantum mb hard drive taken from a iisi in an external powerdrive box from hard drives international that currenty has a dead conner mechanism in it have you done this or do you know how if so could you please walk me through it in as much detail as possible please email me directly if anyone else is interested in this email me and i ll forward responses to you if enough people want instructions i ll post a summary within a week or so thanks in advance bill krauthammer f ehg umiami ir miami edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cd question in article h sav dsyibm desy de michael desy de h sav dsyibm desy de michael m savitski wrote hi there i have a mac lc and consider buying cd i ve been told however that the double speed of cd is achievable only on machines with scsi the double speed is a prerequisite for photocd multisession capability which i need which means i seem to gain nothing compared with say cd any comments thanx your source is wrong the double speed cd is still slow compared to a typical hard disk the lc can easily handle the scsi transfer rate of the cd none of the current macs even the quadras support scsi unless you get a scsi nubus card you don t have to have double speed to use photocd it s just faster reading images off of a disk i think that the cd can handle photocd but only single session the cd can do multisession photocd paul
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris flaky in article c ydqc jk cs uiuc edu scott cs uiuc edu jay scott writes a rep at the dealer actually it s a university order center so they don t have any immediate financial interest told me that they have been having lots of problems with their centris he didn t go into details but mentioned problems with the floppy drive and intermittent problems with printing files it sounded to me like they were having both hardware problems and software compatibility problems with the machine deleted so what does the net think did the dealer just get one flaky machine or did apple send the c out the door too early is your c working just great or is it buggy too a lot of the time when you re dealing with someone who has no financial interest in selling you the machine you get a lot of opinion as opposed to factual information etc what it sounds like to me is that this guy has had an experience with one flaky centris and formed an all encompassing opinion on the rest of the s i ve seen lots of people who frustrated me to no end because they refused to believe any other mac xyz would be any good since their experience with one machine with a mac xyz had been bad their loss eh andrew w duthie aduthie css itd umich edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re radius videovision in article wier csci wiermac etsu edu wier merlin etsu edu bob wier wrote i vaguely maybe remember that there was some kind of serious problem with this board which does composite pal secam to s video composite etc coversions plus also generating quicktime movies etc macweek was generally complimentary about it in the april th issue oops got home and re checked and found out that it isnt the radius video vision which was mentioned as having problems none the less i still have a chance to buy one relatively cheap can anyone say how well it seems to work and if there has been a newer model introduced accounting for the price reduction thanks and thousands of apologies to radius insert usual disclaimers here bob wier east texas state u commerce texas wier merlin etsu edu watch for address change
comp.sys.mac.hardware	none i would like to find out about the adb connector on the back of the macintosh powerbooks after seeing several products that use it for powering devices on the powerbook i also thought up of something to power from the adb connector the keyboard mouse connector does anyone have spex on it i know it has voltage on it and a serial i o of some sort if some kind soul could tell me the way you talk to the mac through it ie packet info it would be appreciated greatly on a second note what are the pin outs of the mac powerbook modem connector i have would like to know which pins are v data etc again thanks charles charles purwin internet purwinc woods ulowell edu actually unix is a very user friendly system its just that it is particular about which users it chooses to be friendly with the oracle programmers and programs alike need die gracefully upon failure and exit with no system disruption
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re datadesk keyboard centris fix hi terry its me again i couldn t agree with you more i finally received my datadesk keyboard a month after sendng it to datadesk to have it checked they didn t tell me over the phone that you had to wait before pressing the shift key to disable extensions actually they did but not until a day before my keyboard arrived but a month earlier they were of no help at all i really think they need to put a disclaimer on their keyboard manual david
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mhz clock oscillator where in my quest for speed i ve run into a problem mhz and mhz clock oscillators are available but i haven t found any speeds between and mhz for further testing fox electronics can make custom oscillators but if anyone knows a source cheaper than osc please let me know some and mhz units would complete my speed trials on the old q guy kuo guykuo u washington edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day in article r gis e calvin nyu edu roy mchip med nyu edu roy smith wrote i wouldn t worry too much about wasting electricity in the winter months that energy is just getting turned into heat it may not be as efficient a way to heat a building as the central heating plant but it s is there any such thing as in inefficient heater chris ellens ellens bnr ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re powerbook duo memory system slow in article apr leland stanford edu avery gestalt stanford edu avery wang writes hi do any of you hardware gurus out there know what kind of memory architecture apple uses in the powerbook duos or in the powerbook in general what are the factors that make the duo so slow compared to a desktop machine running the same processor at the same speed mhz how many wait states are in the memory system etc what kind of a data bus does it use bit or bit huh where did you get this idea from i think you got this backwards the duo s memory is faster than its equivalent desktop machine by and the rest of the powerboks i think the explanation for this was that it can refresh faster in instead of cycles i believe things that could affect performance would be factors such as use of functions enhanced in the fpu which the duo doesn t have undocked extensions and background applications can slow your computer down too real life differences in speed are likely to be influence by the software you are running what kind of screen depth you are running etc espen ps the duo is bit through out
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re mac oriented bbss in article apr adrenaline com hyerstay adrenaline com jason hyerstay wrote i m also interested in mac based bbs but not in chicago i would greatly appreciate it if someone could post a list of bbss in the la area preferably but also thanks dan sure thing here are the firstclass systems in those area codes macvalley online burbank ca the drawing board hacienda heights ca bps hollywood ca sangabriel valley mug pasadena ca don t forget the lamg los angeles macintosh group bbs it s the bbs for the largest mac only user group in the country now that bmug is multi platform the number is macs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	scsi cable for sale i have a brand new never used inch mac to scsi cable for sale i m asking for shipping tell me if this is too high i don t think it is tttttt eeeee vv vv eeeee tt ee vv vv ee tt eeee vv vv eeee steve liu tt ee vvv ee drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu tt eeeee v eeeee drlovemd jhuvms hcf jhu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	need device ntsc video scsi bus has anyone heard of a scsi device that can capture video we need some sort of device that can capture about frames or so per second and work off the scsi bus the idea is to use it for some sort of video conferencing application if i told you all that went down it would burn off both your ears these thoughts are only my own chbeck anl gov
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re pc logitec hand scan on mac i have the logitech hand scanner for the mac it uses a scsi interface box that the standard scanner unit plugs into i have tried my friend s ibm hand scanner with the scsi box and it works see if you can get logitech to sell you the scsi box by itself warning most of the cost of mac handscanners is contained in the scsi interface box so it could run up to around when i upgraded my old style scanner to the new gray scale model it cost they just gave me a new scan head and software the box was the same the gray scale scanner interface runs about making it around for the interface collin
comp.sys.mac.hardware	floptical kills superdrive i recently bought a pli mgbyte floptical drive and i was very happy with it until i tried to use it to format a hd diskette i put the hd floppy in my superdrive to check that the floptical had formatted it correctly and now my superdrive refuses to recognize any floppy it says this disk is unreadable and asks if i want to format it even original systems floppies from apple nor will it format the disks if i try to initialization failed strangely enough the floptical still reads both the mb and hd disks but i cant look at my k floppies and if i have a crash i m screwed because the floptical can t be used as a start up disk pli has been unresponsive any ideas has this happened to anyone before i was looking for an inexpensive storage solution and now i am looking at an expensive repair help respond to this thread or email mfeldman acs bu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day in article ltdpedinnrsj exodus eng sun com gsager heliacal eng sun com gary sager writes work it was pointed out that this should only be done with monitors with the power switch on front this is a pet peeve of mine i wish companies would put power switches on the front of the equipment if my apple monitor had the switch on the front i would happily power it off at night almost every piece of computer equipment i own use has the switch on the back including external hard drives and modems why i hope front mounted switches become the norm and soon it is just extra wire and work to put the switch in front usually the easiest place to put the switch is wherever the power cord enters the machine and people hate power cords on the front i prefer a power strip
comp.sys.mac.hardware	stylewriter ii dying i bought a stylewriter ii a couple months ago and lately when i print something i notice white lines or gaps running through the line being printed it s almost like the paper is advancing a smidge too far when advancing lines i replaced the ink cartridge thinking it might be the problem but the lines are still there has anyone else noticed this problem what s the best way to get rid of it brian s davidson internet bsd ultb isc rit edu rochester institute of technology bitnet bsd ritvax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re price drop on c within the price you have on the seems very good i too would like to know where it is from if it is not giving away secrets thanks alan from planet bmug the firstclass bbs of bmug the message contained in this posting does not in any way reflect bmug s official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re the mhz iisi i have done several of these upgrades about iisi s and quadra and the best thing to use would be some sort of heat sink compound if possible you should look for the silicon free stuff there s a comany who makes the stuff called tech spray their address is p o box amarillo tx you should be wary in using most kinds of tape and definately don t use duct tape that stuff is for ducts when using the heat sink glue or compound only use enough to fill the small space between the heat sink and the cpu mario murphy from planet bmug the firstclass bbs of bmug the message contained in this posting does not in any way reflect bmug s official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re sad mac code f i believe that that would be the same as a system error since there is no error then i would guess that it would be a error which is a font manager error of error during font declairation i would assume that the system that s on the floppy that you are trying start up on has a corrupted font in it or something like that mario murphy from planet bmug the firstclass bbs of bmug the message contained in this posting does not in any way reflect bmug s official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day i ve turned my monitor on and off with the cpu running many times each time i wonder what i am doing to my cpu by directly hooking in such a high current draw on its lines while it is running does this put a substantial spike on the power line could one possibly lose data or damage equipment
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re pin simms for q be careful before buying i have already purchased pin simms for a quadra from memory direct on march how can i tell whether or not they are composite simms as a rule does memory direct ship composite or regular simms thank you gary l gray engineering mechanics astronautics university of wisconsin madison gray cmgroup engr wisc edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re unknown mac board national instruments nb dma in article c ygdq mi news iastate edu kmradke iastate edu kevin m radke wrote i need help identifying this board that i found stuffed away in a corner as the title says all that is printed on it is national instruments nb dma it fits fine in my mac iici and snooper gives the very same name for the board it looks like it has an hp ib connector on the back of it and another connector on the top rows by pins it also looks like it has an intel processor on it a intel on an eeprom there is a sticker with the p n anybody ever seen or heard of one or better yet do you know what it does we are all clueless here our last option is to hook it up to our hp workstations and see if any smoke comes out it s made by surprise national instruments bridge point parkway austin tx anonymouse ftp at ftp natinst com their catalog lists the nb g as follows fetch and deposit dma controller channels ieee interface with data rates up to kb sec with dma and programmed i o transfers bit counter timer channels rtsi bus that s the connector on the top of the board it links it with other national instrument boards list price of the board isn t in later catalogs it has been superceeded by the nb dma
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris flaky tthiel cs uiuc edu terry thiel writes scott cs uiuc edu jay scott writes a rep at the dealer actually it s a university order center so they don t have any immediate financial interest told me that they have been having lots of problems with their centris he didn t go into details but mentioned problems with the floppy drive and intermittent problems with printing files it sounded to me like they were having both hardware problems and software compatibility problems with the machine he s not recommending the centris to anybody he says to consider a centris or a iivx why he would recommend a iivx over an lciii i don t know but that s what he said so what does the net think did the dealer just get one flaky machine or did apple send the c out the door too early is your c working just great or is it buggy too my centris is working perfectly there is one problem that i have noticed fastback ii backup utility does not work the strange thing is that it works with my friend s most of the time however it never works with my machine i assume it is some sort of software problem and not hardware related saiid paryavi paryavi matt ksu ksu edu saiid cis ksu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re unknown mac board national instruments nb dma kmradke iastate edu kevin m radke writes i need help identifying this board that i found stuffed away in a corner as the title says all that is printed on it is national instruments nb dma it fits fine in my mac iici and snooper gives the very same name for the board it looks like it has an hp ib connector on the back of it and another connector on the top rows by pins it also looks like it has an intel processor on it a intel on an eeprom there is a sticker with the p n anybody ever seen or heard of one or better yet do you know what it does we are all clueless here our last option is to hook it up to our hp workstations and see if any smoke comes out thanks a lot kevin it is a data aquisition board for the mac ii series it is called the dma board with gpib interface you may call ni at ieee to find out more about it hope this helps saiid paryavi saiid paryavi paryavi matt ksu ksu edu saiid cis ksu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	in defense of performas was re performa or lc from article apr desire wright edu by demon desire wright edu not a boomer in article apr tolten puc cl rcvillab isluga puc cl rodrigo carlos villablanca writes hi i have a question which is the diference between performa and lciii i want to know which is better if you know the specifications and the prices of this computers can you tell me by email to rcvillab isluga puc cl i d like to know the diference between the apple monitor and the performa monitor too performa classic ii performa lc ii performa xx lc iii performa well nothing the performas are made to be low cost business solutions the xx have bundled software modems etc because they have no retail price you might be able to get a steeper discount on them shop around as far as the monitors go buy rd party much cheaper brett there s nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction sean o casey in the white plague by frank herbert hmmm that s not quite right the performa is real darn close to the iivx but a better buy imo i also don t think they are so much a low cost business solution but a low cost home solution why else bundle at ease among other things hardly a business application what do you mean by no retail price quite the contrary i think the price is darn near the same all across the country that again imo was one of the selling points of the performas ie no haggling required kinda like the saturn car of the computer set one price medium performance ready to go when i shopped for my performa cd the difference between sears sigh montgomery wards silo sigh circuit city sigh and bizmart sigh couldn t have been why i chose one over the other was based solely on availability and a friendly salesman who went the extra mile when did you last hear that about someone who sells apples admittedly except for montgomery wards and i suspect i was just lucky all of the salesfolk i spoke to didn t know didly about the computers peecee or mac but then neither did any of the apple dealers i spoke with if you would ve told me a year ago that i would buy a macintosh from montgomery wards i woulda laughed for a long long time go figure i m real happy with my performa oh and i bought the apple performa plus monitor vs buying rd party happy with that decision as well i walked in plopped down some cash and walked out with a spankin new computer the day before christmas instrument approach procedures automation dot faa ami bryan d oakley ctrbdo iapa mailhost ecn uoknor edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day in article apr alleg edu comp sys mac hardware smytonj murr alleg edu jim smyton writes in article r jl igh function mps ohio state edu nevai mps ohio state edu paul nevai writes yes i know computers and harddisk drives should be always on but what about monitors they generate a lots of heat should i or shouldn t i keep them on hours a day any advice thanks take care paul paul nevai nevai mps ohio state edu dept math ohio state university office columbus ohio u s a math dept fax actually i thought macs were suppoused to be restarted once a day nope i keep my mac running all the time since it also acts as a usenet node and exchanges mail and news every half hour i run uaccess and receives all my faxes i do turn off the monitors hooked up to it they produce more heat than i want it can be warm in my garage office in the summer i ve got one of those handy power control centers at fry s to i just flip the switch in front when i start or stop working by the way this strategy seems to be somewhat endorsed by apple since their new color classic will turn off its own monitor after a certain length of idle time michael peirce peirce outpost sf bay org peirce software suite hibiscus place san jose california usa makers of voice fax smoothie applelink peirce america online afc peirce
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris flaky in r oqcinnh c stimpy css itd umich edu aduthie mudskipper css itd umich edu andrew duthie writes in article c ydqc jk cs uiuc edu scott cs uiuc edu jay scott writes is your c working just great or is it buggy too a lot of the time when you re dealing with someone who has no financial interest in selling you the machine you get a lot of opinion as opposed to factual information etc what it sounds like to me is that this guy has had an experience with one flaky centris and formed an all encompassing opinion on the rest of the s i ve seen lots of yes that is what it sounds like to me too but before i spend da bucks i want to make sure i m right i do have e mail from a self confessed apple hater listing a few common problems with the c but nothing i can t get fixed under warranty so anybody else great or lousy jay scott scott cs uiuc edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris flaky in article c ydqc jk cs uiuc edu scott cs uiuc edu jay scott writes a rep at the dealer actually it s a university order center so they don t have any immediate financial interest told me that they have been having lots of problems with their centris he didn t go into details but mentioned problems with the floppy drive and intermittent problems with printing files it sounded to me like they were having both hardware problems and software compatibility problems with the machine he s not recommending the centris to anybody he says to consider a centris or a iivx why he would recommend a iivx over an lciii i don t know but that s what he said so what does the net think did the dealer just get one flaky machine or did apple send the c out the door too early is your c working just great or is it buggy too jay scott scott cs uiuc edu mine works great so far hasit s mehta university of rochester primus sucks hm b uhura cc rochester edu i do believe in captain crunch for i am the frizzle fry
comp.sys.mac.hardware	svga and powerbook ok here is my question i want to hook up my powerbook to a svga monitor but i do not want to buy the powerbook dos companion can anyone tell me the exact cable i need to connect them if there is such a cable can i purchase it from macwharehouse or some computer store if i must buy the cable from james engineering how much do they run and how can i get a hold them i guess that was more than a question thanks in advance for any replys john schrieber e mail schriejh cnsvax uwec edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re desi pb upgrade couldn t replacement become expensive david from planet bmug the firstclass bbs of bmug the message contained in this posting does not in any way reflect bmug s official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	psi modem problem ii the first problem was the sound i tried the m but then even the logon was muted i don t want that any other suggestions for that hissing the second is really strange first i kept mentioning that fc slowed down all the time and took too long well i just logged on with extensions off and i didn t have any slowdown also last time i was online i quit which usually disconnects and quits it disconnected but it wouldn t quit i had to force quit and then when i launched fc again it said the modem port was in use this is really strange i thought it might have to do with fax software or the restart could have reset the modem port a more likely explanation so any suggestions david from planet bmug the firstclass bbs of bmug the message contained in this posting does not in any way reflect bmug s official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help on gcc plp ii laser printer the tech support line for gcc is from planet bmug the firstclass bbs of bmug the message contained in this posting does not in any way reflect bmug s official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re torx t screwdriver in article c j k o austin ibm com login austin ibm com writes a while ago when i owned a plus and wanted to upgrade its memory i just ordered the toolkit from macwarehouse for something like it included an anti static i ve had success just jamming a standard screwdriver in the slots banging it in with a hammer and twisting away then i throw the darn things away and put real screws in there methinks they did this just to sell us the damn screwdrivers
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors but when i m not using it i m using it in article c x x vp usenet ucs indiana edu cliu silver ucs indiana edu chang hsu liu writes the u s environmental protection agency has formed an alliance with computer manufacturers to promote the introduction of energy efficient pcs that power down automatically when not being used this is a bad idea my machine is on hours a day but it s actually doing things hours a day i use it as an all purpose alarm clock scheduler i ve got routines that run in the middle of the night phone calls it makes during the day when i m out if your machine is on hours a day then you can count on it to be working hours a day i could call it from work and download a file that i might need i could call it from work and have it turn the lights on if i m going to be late oops more wasted electricity but conversely i could have it turn the lights off heck i suppose i could even connect the microwave and have dinner ready when i get there oh well nevermind i m just babbling
comp.sys.mac.hardware	which powerbook to buy hi i own a iisi and i m considering buying a powerbook can anyone give me a listing of all the models and tell me what i m looking for i e passive matrix vs active memory sizes upgradeability internal modems disk size if you could provide some prices too that would help i m not informed enough on powerbooks to know how well they operate i have been following the posts on some of the problems that have been encountered such as the trackball not working in the horizontal i would appreciate the list as well as any advice you may have thanks in advance kordi a wichita state university
comp.sys.mac.hardware	can mac superdrives read unix disks does anyone know of a program or utility that will enable the mac to read unix i e next in disks thanks warren warren laplace biology yale edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re the mhz iisi re the mhz iisi i used the radio shack heat sink compound solution with no clamps works fine the caution holds though don t tilt your mac
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris flaky i ve been playing with a centris for the last couple weeks the only problem that i have seen is that a couple of the applications i run are incompatible with the s processor cache so i have to run with it turned off actually the main thing i don t like it is that it doesn t have a software powerup powerdown and the power switch is directly under the floppy drive i haven t hit it thinking it would eject the disk but some tired night i m going to be really upset with that design decision in all no problems with it floppy and printing have been just fine printing is done across a localtalk net not a directly connected printer bill
comp.sys.mac.hardware	info wanted upgrading se power supply hello netter i want to uprade the power supply of my se in which a bit color card is installed i know crc components inc deals the compatible power supply of se manifactured by power plus systems does anyone know their phone or fax number of them please reply me by e mail thanks kensuke nakajima
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris flaky in article c ydqc jk cs uiuc edu scott cs uiuc edu jay scott writes so what does the net think did the dealer just get one flaky machine or did apple send the c out the door too early is your c working just great or is it buggy too my is working like a charm in fact if s are flaky i would consider it a great computer even if i had to return a couple to apple to get a good one samuel christian zehr zeh midway uchicago edu bio computing labs whitman e th st chicago il
comp.sys.mac.hardware	building a simple appletalk repeater i have a small network running in my dorm at school and i am kind of worried about the length of the wires and the way that i have run it i was wondering if anyone might have some schematic or at least some ideas on how to make some sort of simple appletalk repeater i m not so interested in making actual zones and zone names just a way to isolate different branches of the network does anyone have any ideas on what could be done thanks alot dave sugar udsugar mcs drexel edu st rjr dunx ocs drexel edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	tones o death hi i just test installed kanjitalk on my iici and got a black screen a way sick looking mac icon and when hitting the programmers reset a tone sequence that i guess is the infamous tones of death i was able to reboot off a floppy removed the japanese system and set up the system folder on the hard drive to get system back now have no overt problems with the mac any idea what caused the tones i forget the numbers but fff comes to mind if it is some self diagnostic why would an older system version catch it and not i ll be moving up to and worldscript by and by thanks in advance hiroki hiroki morizono department of biochemistry university of minnesota fax gortner avenue hiroki limerick cbs umn edu st paul mn
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re stylewriter ii dying in article apr ultb isc rit edu bsd ultb isc rit edu b s davidson writes i bought a stylewriter ii a couple months ago and lately when i print something i notice white lines or gaps running through the line being printed it s almost like the paper is advancing a smidge too far when advancing lines i replaced the ink cartridge thinking it might be the problem but the lines are still there has anyone else noticed this problem what s the best way to get rid of it brian s davidson internet bsd ultb isc rit edu i had a similar problem with my stylewriter i the original have you tried cleaning the print heads with the swii driver it s and option in the print dialog box sometimes i had to do it several times to get the crud out yes it wastes ink but it beats those white annoying lines another idea is to print a couple of pages with just a big black box it can help to get the ink flowing good luck beth corbo corbo lclark edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re what s that chime in article r dcm nac fnnews fnal gov b fnclub fnal gov david sachs writes those chimes indicate a hardware failure of some type during system startup one thing that can cause the chimes is a cable that has become a bit loose next time you power down the computer check that all cables are on tight i remember a simple program that would play those chimes for you when you clicked their respective buttons does anyone know where that is this was circa i think cheers e eric j huppertz ejhupper ilstu edu hey these aren t my rules come to think of it i don t have any rules beetlejuice
comp.sys.mac.hardware	macintosh lab help interesting delema for all those out there my school is discussing installing a mac lab of to stations for our bio to classes to do a study with pig disections no joke here is the deal we can get this grant to do a study on if it is more feasible to do a disection via the computer or via the real thing my problem is i was somehow drawn into this project being done by students who want to go mac but know nada about them being the man mac man on campus guess who they came to so i wnt to know what would probably be the best hardware to fill the follwoing list right now we are looking at the c and the vx platforms ok here it goes we are using cd rom so ought we go with the internal apple cd roms offered as options in the and vx or go external it is a matter of price and reliability the second being very important how much ram i was thinking more leaning towards what do you think ok called apple educational discounts and they said their keyboard extended is is it better to go with the apple and their long time great wear and tear record or is there a rd party extended keyboard that is just a reliable price printers one color printer we are presently leaning towrds the thermal wax tektronic e or i probably the e as we are going to limit access so we don t needed the i s networkability so what do you think in terms of color printers different brand kind dye sublimation ink jet price companies s also we are looking to get a laser printer or such to network into the whole lab for noraml printing the fornt runner is the apple pro is that right don t have my notes here at suggestions we have kids using these things all day if this lab goes through and they know nothing about it for the most part it has to be reliable easy to maintain and economical ie not high priced paper cartidges etc finally and this is my little dig into the project what about netting these things we have ether nearby and i would like to slap the macs on the net but server individual ether forget about it it is going to be astronomically priced and the school is going to laugh at you when you ask them little more info i am a poli sci major who just happens to know alot about macs but this is a bit out of my league not to mention i don t have the time to go and look for all of this stuff so i am hoping the collective resources and intelect of the net can help has before shameless plug buy empower great security program disclaimer this post is not and will never be supported by my university they do not condone in any way my using this media to illict info this is a proj by bio majors so they re the real persons anyinfo please send to the email above or to make it real clear rmwbb wittenberg edu and damn i hope my editor is alive when i get done typing s there is not another stupid blank post i reserve the right to claim all this info as mine and use it to get everything i want form my universities red taped administration this info may be used for blackmail purposes and for obtaining undo amounts of praise and god like status this info may also be used to get credits i probaly really don t deserve that is the ned of it any questions and thanks ahead of time once again taping the collective genius of the internet scott d sauer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	flaky large memory simms on s in the last two weeks i have the following problem on two s has a mb simm and the other a mb simm both are about months old bought from different vendors and installed by different people both computers begin crashing frequently locking up and ultimately the memory chimes crashes would almost always occur if you moved the screen and sometimes would occur when you weren t even touching the computer in both cases taking the machine apart taking the memory out and putting it back in solved the problem for awhile but then it would comeback my marginally educated guess as to what s happening is that larger simms are lopsided in that the insertion point is sort of a pivot point and after time they begin to move about possible because of pressure on the keyboard or something anyway has anyone else had such a problem or solution if somehow you could support the other end of the simm to prevent it from moving i ve had no problem for the past weeks by replacing my mb simm with a mbsimm although this is not desireble solution please email any resp and or post if usefull to the rest of the world ted ted schreiber mechanical enginering northwestern university tel fax email rts nwu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	recs on mac video system cards software what would be a good platform for some fairly basic video work of the following nature reading real video in for playbak in various app s minnutes in length basic editing features for said video rearange sequences adding grapic slides from something like power point etc i m not to familiar with this stuff but would like a good system with crisp performance it s for educational promotional things so the video quality should be decent i m thinking tempest or cyclone big drive loads o ram floptical or mb optical however i m not to sure of the various cards and software thats out there please email any responses thanks ted schreiber mechanical enginering northwestern university tel fax email rts nwu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii or used iici which should i get i am at long last going to replace my beloved ke i am looking at a new lc iii and a used iici prices have yet to be worked out so i m just thinking right now about their merits and drawbacks here s what i ve thought of the iici has much greater potential for expansion a la nubus and greater memory capacity the lc iii would be new under warranty newer roms is the iici bit clean and would have sound input i also like the pizza box case performance wise i have read that they are almost identical the lc iii being a little slower so which should i get erik erik cheshire oxy edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lciii or used iici which should i get erik cheshire oxy edu erik adams writes i am at long last going to replace my beloved ke i am looking at a new lc iii and a used iici prices have yet to be worked out so i m just thinking right now about their merits and drawbacks here s what i ve thought of the iici has much greater potential for expansion a la nubus and greater memory capacity the lc iii would be new under warranty newer roms is the iici bit clean and would have sound input i also like the pizza box case performance wise i have read that they are almost identical the lc iii being a little slower so which should i get erik erik cheshire oxy edu yes the iici has bit clean roms either model would be a good choice another option get a new iici from a dealer that hasn t sold out yet also don t forget the performa which i believe is the same as an lc iii but may be packaged with more goodies for a better price
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lciii or used iici which should i get in article apr cheshire oxy edu erik cheshire oxy edu erik adams writes i am looking at a new lc iii and a used iici prices the iici has much greater potential for expansion a la nubus and greater memory capacity how important is this how many nubus cards do you have plan to acquire how much memory do you really need i ve got a ci and mb of ram that s plenty i also have a bit graphics card on the nubus i m a sucker for pretty pictures i think the lciii can have a bootable ramdisk in memory which a ci can not have at least not out of the box the lc iii would be new under warranty newer roms is the iici bit clean and would have sound input i also like the pizza box case the ci is bit clean i solved the sound input problem with a macrecorder but that s gotten to be a fairly expensive solution now that macromind owns macrecorder performance wise i have read that they are almost identical the lc iii being a little slower the actual difference is probably not worth worrying over so which should i get depends on the price you can get the ci for educationally speaking the lciii here at fsu can be had at just under add in roughly for a monitor last i d heard an mb lciii simm went for i think you re in a win win situation no matter what you decide you ll most likely be happy with it james
comp.sys.mac.hardware	chosser gives blank screen i am running system on a centris i have not been able to setup my printer yet because when i open chooser i get a blank screen i do have all kinds of print drivers but none shows up i even do not get a port iconn either it is just one big blank screen your help is very appreciated btw i did rebuild the desktop but that did not help either bizhan bizhan netcom com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	newlife and hard drives giday netters just got a used newlife accelerator with fpu and i was wondering about a few points anyone know the current driver version for it can it handle the bit grayscale card if i get the video option why would it be hating my hard drive can t use the accelerator and hard drive at the same time do i need a new driver on my drive what make thanks jason blakey ug cs dal ca he s big he s purple he s your best friend
comp.sys.mac.hardware	oops probably should of been more specific on the newlife here s my system desc megs on the main board on the accelerator board mac plus with the most recent roms d trying to run system but would like to run the hard drive is a jasmine works fine if i start up with the accelerator disabled i also seem to get the problem of when i try to start up from floppy with the hard drive disconnected all i get is the disk loading but the screen is black except for a happy mac in the middle and it never gets anywhere jason blakey ug cs dal ca he s big he s purple he s your best friend
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lciii or used iici which should i get according to what i saw in a store today the performa is not the same as an lciii it only has a mhz while the lciii has a mhz correct me if i am wrong because it is possible that the dealer may have forgotten to remove the description that was next to the actual computer dealers who sell the performa are known to have about as much knowledge about macs as i do about dos machines saurabh
comp.sys.mac.hardware	need a button mouse help can anyone recommend a button mouse that is compatible with macx and quadra if so can the buttons be programed to say cut paste etc can anyone suggest a supplier the only button mice i know exist are logitek aust injan anorus aust mac direct are these ok for the above configuration please reply me directly regards christopher welsh deakin university chris welsh department of computing and maths cris aragorn cm deakin oz au everybody has enormous potential if only you could see what i can see
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac iifx for sale for sale mac iifx with the following config mb s ram mb hard drive mb floppy drives extended keyboard mouse apple bit video card or best offer all you need is a monitor to complete this system thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re svga monitors and centris the real story in article ofpiuyk wc a aw g andrew cmu edu am o andrew cmu edu alexander samuel mcdiarmid writes having been discusse essentially adnausium the answer is yes at least for the x configuration you can get an adaptor called mac vga q from james engineering and this will let you display x and x if the monitor is capable i think the x requires khz horizontal sync i use this on my sony gives a slightly wider screen than the x adaptor i am using a nec fg with my centris the cable adapter was provided by nec you have to call to get this free adapter i am also sharing it with my using a switch box and extra cables my questions how do you tell if it is x or x that was displayed or how do you change the mode resolution is there sw for this or something i have to do with the hw i am assuming i am getting x since i have m vram and the fg can display x with my nicholas pang nyp cd amdahl com amdahl corporation nyp outs ccc amdahl com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	can the iisi do it yourself acceleration be done on a iici i was wondering if what many of you did to accelerate your iisi s from mhz to mhz and beyond can be done to a iici ie from mhz to mhz stephen tseng st cornell edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	where i can buy a new lcii i want to buy a lcii yes lcii not lciii none of the dealer seems to have them anymore does anybody know where i can buy this beast i wanted with standard keyboard package please let me know thanx aravind s melligeri system administrator asm mevax psu edu dept of mechanical engg off pennsylvania state univ res
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cd audio cd scsi commands hi does anyone out there know how i would get started on writing a device driver for the apple cd cd rom drive which can read audio cd formats out through the scsi bus thanks avery
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare the at the same clock is not as fast as the at the same clock speed the also has much better floating point unit now the dx is faster than the at mhz but for your reference the at mhz gets mips while the at mhz gets mips
comp.sys.mac.hardware	modems simple question d i am going to purchase a modem with a s r fax capability currently i d am considering suprav bis or global village teleport gold d d the global village averages about more is there an advantage d d concerning fax do i need to be present when there are incoming fax d i e will the modem software recognize an incoming fax and store the d information once received can i use mac applications on the image d my telephone line seems pretty stable and i have the supra as well works great but with every passing day i fall behind on how many great s are out zoom is out of the question from what i m hearing at t has a great product from what i hear and the sportster is really cheap now too if you want to receive a fax your computer will have to be on but not the monitor and of course the modem you can set the number of rings that will receive the fax on a specific ring you set with fax stf software it s entirely up to you how to arrange that i ve had faxes sent to me which is great but i ve been home to set it i don t have a need to set fax receiving up all day also i hear there is a device that can channel all incoming phone signals for about rumor also that the phone company can hook you up with the same gizmo for about if that s what you need best of luck and write back if you d like more feedback freddie clinton the tax man cometh cometh cometh keeps on coming roman brice internet roman brice f n z fidonet org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re can mac superdrives read unix disks in article apr news yale edu warren delano warren laplace biology yale edu writes does anyone know of a program or utility that will enable the mac to read unix i e next in disks thanks warren warren laplace biology yale edu i don t know the answer to your direct question but if the mac superdrive can read ms dos disks can it then you can transfer files between the next and a mac by using ms dos formatted disks since the next can read write that format and if you re interested in transferring files you can also do it over the serial port using kermit cheers avery
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re powerbook duo memory system slow in article c yj l lc dartvax dartmouth edu espen h koht dartmouth edu espen h koht writes in article apr leland stanford edu avery gestalt stanford edu avery wang writes hi do any of you hardware gurus out there know what kind of memory architecture apple uses in the powerbook duos or in the powerbook in general what are the factors that make the duo so slow compared to a desktop machine running the same processor at the same speed mhz how many wait states are in the memory system etc what kind of a data bus does it use bit or bit huh where did you get this idea from i think you got this backwards the duo s memory is faster than its equivalent desktop machine by and the rest of the powerboks i think the explanation for this was that it can refresh faster in instead of cycles i believe things that could affect performance would be factors such as use of functions enhanced in the fpu which the duo doesn t have undocked extensions and background applications can slow your computer down too real life differences in speed are likely to be influence by the software you are running what kind of screen depth you are running etc espen ps the duo is bit through out thanks for the enlightening post is there a technical note on this the desktop machine i was referring to was actually not a mac but rather any of various workstations that use the mhz such as old suns or old nexts i used to own a next cube but i will try rebooting without extensions to see what kind of a speed difference i get with my powerbook duo i did notice an extreme slowdown to unusability with a mac plus after installing system on it why does the os suck up so much cpu power also you re right software does make a huge difference i have the misfortune of using ms works on my duo when editing relatively small k files cut or copy takes several seconds often more than seconds this happens with power cycling turned off as usual ms software is maggot infested feces i m getting nisus to replace it for my text editing avery
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re deskwriter driver v problems in article ut emx uucp marc bizer mlbizer bongo cc utexas edu writes has it happened to anyone that while printing a beep is heard and a message is displayed of the sort such and such a window was closed because the finder did not have enough memory or am i the only one suffering from this delusion marc bizer this can be solved by going into your system folder and do a get info command i on the finder and give it more memory
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day in article cassidy elan rowan edu kyle cassidy cassidy elan rowan edu writes this is a bad idea my machine is on hours a day but it s actually doing things hours a day i use it as an all purpose alarm clock scheduler i ve got routines that run in the middle of the night phone calls it makes during the day when i m out if your machine is on hours a day then you can count on it to be working hours a day i could call it from work and download a file that i might need i could call it from work and have it turn the lights on if i m going to be late oops more wasted electricity but conversely i could have it turn the lights off heck i suppose i could even connect the microwave and have dinner ready when i get there oh well nevermind i m just babbling all of those things that you ve mention can still be accomplished when the machine is power down when the previous poster said power down it doesn t mean turning off the machine it just means that the machine is in an energy conserving mode that sucks up least electricity
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris flaky in article c ydqc jk cs uiuc edu scott cs uiuc edu jay scott writes story about dealing having problems w c s deleted so what does the net think did the dealer just get one flaky machine or did apple send the c out the door too early is your c working just great or is it buggy too i ve had my c for about six weeks now with no problems whatsoever it s been customized with replaced the apple quantum drive with a connor drive installed a tandberg scsi tape drive in the internal bay which works just fine though apple doesn t seem to be supplying front panel bezels w a standard cutout it s hooked up to an apple laserwriter plus and has no printing problems at all tested printing complex photoshop graphics it has expanded vram and extra meg simm no problems so in sum i have no idea what this dealer is complaining about fred fred martin fredm media mit edu ames st rm e epistemology and learning group mit media lab cambridge ma usa
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re adapter for iisi and a vga monitor in article apr midway uchicago edu choi gsbsrc uchicago edu dongseok choi writes i understand that if i have a correct adapter then i can use a vga monitor with my iisi are those adapters working with specific brands is adapter for nec or sony working with other brands i will be using a vga monitor with iisi for a month soon i don t have any clue what monitor will be here s the story the iisi cannot supply a vga output however some vga type monitors can adequately deal with the video signal the mac uses to drive the apple or inch high resolution color display i e apple s own x mode so if you wish to hook one of these monitors up to your iisi you need a an adapter that converts from the mac db connector to the vga style high density db connector but tells the mac to use it s own x mode not the vga x mode and b a vga monitor that can deal with the higher bandwidth of the mac x mode over the vga x mode which as i stated in above the iisi cannot produce as far as a above is concerned contact james engineering inc fairmount ave el cerrito ca fax they can probably get you the right adapter remember you do not want the run of the mill mac to vga adapter because it will try to have your iisi produce the vga mode which it cannot the computer will just fail to produce any video signal at all instead you want an adapter that connects between the mac style and vga style connectors but tells the mac to use the apple x mode sorry for the poor terminology available for describing this distinction as far as b is concerned make sure to get a monitor that can deal with a horizontal bandwidth of khz and a vertical retrace rate of hz these are the spec s of apple s x mode for comparison the vga standard x mode uses a khz horizontal bandwidth and a hz vertical retrace rate the monitor will probably need to have auto synch ing capability as the apple mode you ll be using isn t one of the set of standard modes in the pc compatible world good luck fred martin fred martin fredm media mit edu ames st rm e epistemology and learning group mit media lab cambridge ma usa
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lciii or used iici which should i get in article c no jst mailer cc fsu edu stricher masig ocean fsu edu char aznabul writes in article apr cheshire oxy edu erik cheshire oxy edu erik adams writes i am looking at a new lc iii and a used iici prices the iici has much greater potential for expansion a la nubus and greater memory capacity depends on the price you can get the ci for educationally speaking the lciii here at fsu can be had at just under add in roughly for a monitor last i d heard an mb lciii simm went for i think you re in a win win situation no matter what you decide you ll most likely be happy with it james yes and one thing to think about is the pricing on the m harddrive configuration when i got my lowly classic ii the options were or m harddrives and it was clear that buying another m of harddrive space would cost much more than the difference in price between the two config uartions there is an analogous break in the lciii and prices and you will not regret spending the extra money for a larger harddrive particularly if you ever wind up wanting to use softpc which sets up a several mb up to partition or if you are generating large files with dtp software or if you might ever want to check out a mac unix like os like machten having the extra space will be helpful when you are pricing used iici s look at the harddrive size they come with and how much it would cost you to add more storage down the road might be a useful bargaining strategy even if you see no reason to go over m though i must admit that i am such a packrat that within months of getting my computer i was backing up a lot of stuff to floppies that i rarely use to because i was running out of space without having started using dtp stuff softpc or trying any unix os peter bell minerva cis yale edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re sound recording for mac portable in a previous article aa freenet carleton ca david a hughes says does anyone know what hardware is required and where i could find it for sound recording on the mac portable thanks all you have to do is buy a macromedia macrecorder this plugs into your seril port and acts as a microphone north star computers should be able to order you one liam morland ad freenet carleton ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re syquest in article hydra gatech edu gt a prism gatech edu anthony s kim wrote i remember someone mention about a meg syquest has anyone else heard anything about this i d be interested in the cost per megabyte and the approximate cost of the drive itself and how they compare to the bernoulli bernoulli also offer mb floppy drives that read mb floppies their mb multidisk reads all formats and writes mb bernoulli s are installed in industrial computers much more rugged than syquest you get what you pay for i guess haven t heard about mb syquest thanks truemner mac truemner rd hydro on ca ontario hydro automated ndt welding r d fax toronto canada
comp.sys.mac.hardware	two internal disks i d like to put internal disks in a mac ii i understand that ones needs a special jumper cable to acheive this does anyone know a source for these thanks mike pazzani pazzani ics uci edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help identifying this card chad jones cjones physci ucla edu wrote in article c xpzk f imag fr ibaa oueichek oueichek imag fr writes i have an ethernet card that i took out off an old lc the card is manufactured by asante on it i can read asante tech inc copyright maccon lc rev b the card has an fpu socket on it it provides thin ethernet connector and there s another connector on it which resembels to phone connectors my questions are will this card work on any other model than lc serie given that it s a pds card will it work with the iisi pds slot i think there may be a probleme because the lc has bit wide slots it probably won t work with any other lc the ones i have for the lc ii are rev d no it won t work in the iisi s pds slot since it s a pds while the lc has the pds the iisi and se share the same kind of card ok i see does asante propose any upgrade for their cards do they have an email adress so i can ask them directly their phone number will be ok even if i pay the overseas call i m really willing to know what to do with this card sham u ya tha s seif u lam yaghib i ibaa oueichek oueichek imag imag fr ya jamal al majd i fi l kutub i lab de genie informatique lgi kablak i t tareekh u fi thulmaten imag inpg baadak i staula ala sh shuhub i av felix viallet grenoble
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re good aps experience i thought i d share a good experience too i bought the aps quantum zero footprint drive in may back when they still used two separate leds on the front panel and the case was metal while traveling with it it was in my se mac bag on top of the mac this past winter one of the plastic tabs holding the front panel on broke so that the right side of the front panel was coming forward away from the rest of the drive i lived with this situation until it became completely intolerable which more or less coincided with a network shutdown at school and a trip out of town i had to take which gave me some dead time during which to have the drive sent out i called aps for an rma and got one with no questions asked about how the tab got broken it was handled a little roughly by airline baggage handlers though nothing else was damaged well except for the internal speaker in my modem which wasn t that well glued down to begin with yeah yeah i m never flying with my se again and when i called back to ask whether i could send it in a little later rather than right away they had no problem with that even when i exceeded the normal valid period for an rma by a day they re usually good for days the front panel was replaced under warranty and the drive was shipped back quickly i mailed it first class insured on a saturday by noon from l a to missouri and it came back by fed ex by friday i don t know exactly what day it came back because i was traveling that week from wednesday afternoon to sunday afternoon the only thing that could ve been bad was that the first service rep i talked to in an attempt to prevent jeopardizing my data suggested that i take the drive mechanism out and send just the case unfortunately i discovered the day i was mailing the thing that would necessitate breaking the little seal and thus voiding the warranty oh well al albert seas ucla edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help how to test simms well you can always try and find a pc dealer who sells guaranteed memory i work at a company growing at a year we have on order hundreds of computers per year it never fails machines come in with bad simms now for those of you who are wondering just why your pc or mac just crashed i can tell you i always thought it was the incompetent ass who wrote or designed the software well i don t think that way anymore especially with the results i have gotten with replacing bad simms in my own machine and others at work the moral to this story is to make sure your memory is good i would be willing to bet lots of you out there have simms with either soft or hard errors on them and you don t even know about it but every once in awhile those bad simms just makes your life hell i just got plain sick of dealing with peoples complaints that thier machine just crashed and they lost thier work in case your wondering or if you haven t already guessed i work in an is department service is a do or die perogative in this line of work so the moral is have your memory tested with a simm hardware tester and no i don t mean the simple little software programs that you can run in your machine simms are complicated little beasts and they needs special hardware to test them effectively if any of you are interested in getting one of these nifty little devices which are not cheap write me back they make life a little bit easier and besides they pay for themselves in a short time from the loss of productivity people would have to deal with when thier machine commits suicide greg carter
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help scsi woes on mac iifx in article apr news unomaha edu salmon cwis unomaha edu david salmon writes according to the official documentation failure to use the iifx terminator can not only affect scsi bus performance but can also damage the bus whether this is your problem or not i don t know i have had sporadic scsi problems with my iifx since i bought it i cannot connect more than three devices fourth one causes major problems first thing to do is to try to reformat your drive on someone elses system if you continue to get errors it is probably the drive if it formats fine then i would try to format it on your system with no externals if this fails then the scsi controller on your iifx needs repair replacement hope this helps david c salmon salmon unomaha edu have you tried having your scsi bus balanced greg
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re pds vs nubus was re lc iii nubus capable in article qpc g mr bigboote wpi edu bchase bigwpi wpi edu bret chase writes in article c mqk f liverpool ac uk wis liverpool ac uk mr w i sellers writes bill higgins beam jockey higgins fnalf fnal gov wrote in article c kzls kkb dartvax dartmouth edu hades coos dartmouth edu brian v hughes writes mmiller garnet msen com marvin miller writes my friend recently purchased a lc iii and he wants to know if there is such a demon called nubus adapter for his pds slot the lc family of macs can only use pds cards they are not able to use nubus ah but why can some technically hip macslinger tell us what the difference is between pds and nubus is it impossible to make a gadget that plugs into pds and ends in a nubus card cage at least marvin s friend has not been able to locate one and neither have i what is the fundamental reason for this i think that there do exist nubus expansion cages i m sure i ve seen them advertised occassionally but i think that the main problem is that they cost much more than the difference in price between say a lc and iivx so unless you need lots of nubus slots its not worth the bother of course it may be that these extra boxes are so expensive because no one buys them because they are so expensive nubus technology isn t a special apple proprietry thing i have this sneaky feeling that it is licensed from texas instruments so there is no problem building an expansion box apple uses the ieee nubus standard for their bit backplane bus i got this from a technote that i reada couple of weeks ago well almost nubus anyway comprehensive bus contention between processors is not supported in the current macintoshes could be wrong however i know for a fact from seeing the cyclone data spec sheets myself don t ask macintosh cyclone models will provide full implementation of the nubus standard very interesting possibilities indeed other stuff deleted hope this helps bret chase internet bchase wpi wpi edu macintosh bellnet smile it won t kill you snailnet wpi box institute rd worcester ma greg
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re computer engr vs computer science in article qqla inn ho srvr engin umich edu chyang engin umich edu chung hsiung yang writes in article tecot xenon stanford edu tecot xenon stanford edu edward m tecot writes a professor of mine once said the difference between a computer engineer and a computer scientist is about meaning the engineer makes more than p s the is not just a joke scott for the most part this is a bunch of bunk i ve got a computer engineering degree yet i ve spent the last years writing software that people actually use moreover the salary distinctions are incorrect i received job offers upon graduation the two jobs that actually used my hardware experience were year lower my advice is to decide which classes and projects most interest you and pick the major that allows you to take them emt well here is my worth advice from a grad student i agree with the gentlemen who wrote the comment before me the important thing is pick what ever interest you the most and learn as much as possible about it in my five years of education in this field though brief compare to alot of people i had to think about this kind of question a lot did i make the right decision in going into electrical engineering as opposed to computer engineering or cs the more i go thru school the more i believe that this kind of question is irrelevant interesting as i think computer technology is now becomming widespread enough now that it is no longer a position which must require a degree i know of several people i work with that make just as much as i do and they don t even have a bs degree in comp sci yet they make a year they also didn t have to pay grand to thier local university either i think computer programming is being reduced to a trade practice than a truly specialty field it will be even more so in the future if your interested in cutting edge type of stuff and you choose cs as i did i suggest checking out the emerging field of software engineering the difficulties for example of designing scaleable design environments for individuals so that a single person can handle to million lines of code all by himself in a reasonable manner and then incorporate that into a teamwork enviroment is truly a gigantic problem not going to be solved any time soon unfortunately but hey you could be the person that provides the missing key for some good groundwork i have come to believe that choosing cs because one does not like hardware or choosing hardware because one does not like to program is really doing an injustice of building and computer and making it useful for something everything is interwoven and inseparable cs ce and ee are all a part of a really great discipline and do depend on each other my advice is don t limit yourself but make a decision based on which major will give you the best opportunities to learn that of course depends on the curriculum at your persective school i would choose a major that allows me to explore as much as possible beside i don t know why the school would make a student choose a major before her his sophamore year hey you may be so interested in this field that you decided to learn all about the making of computers in which case you suffer a little more and go to grad school about the money don t look at the averages if you are good you are going to earn more money than anyone else if you are a superstar programmer you will earn millions like wise if you are a hotshot computer designers well if your like the poor slobs in the world like me you are in no financial position to continue graduate work right out of a top comp sci school the trick is to find some generous inc you work for to pay for the rest of your education trust me its the best way to go even if you don t get a top salary which i have always been a poor slob throughout school but if you follow this rule book salary food shelter you should always have a computer and you won t go hungry what else could a man want chung yang greg carter
comp.sys.mac.hardware	softpc question could someone give me some info on soft pc how does it work what kind of performance can i expect can you run windows under it adequately any info if appreciated
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pb memory for sale two meg sim that came from a pb for sale i am asking postage included if you are interested please e mail me via internet if you do not have internet availability you may contact me at reply to donald lyles internet dcl his com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	accelerated mac plus problems hello i recently accelerated my mac plus micromac mhz accelerator and now i can t get my mac to boot off of the hard disk it boots fine from a floppy and i can mount the hard disk using scsi probe but i cannot get it to boot from the hard drive i installed a new driver so i don t think that is the problem this poses a rather large problem i only have meg of ram and i need to run mathematica which requires meg i was hoping to use system virtual memory so that i could run mathematica however i can t run system from a floppy so i can t get enough ram any suggestions thanks for your time chrisw yang earlham edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re can mac superdrives read unix disks there are several programs on sumex that allow macs with superdrives to read and write unix tar diskettes ronald h nicholson jr rhn netcom com rhn sigm com n ywu include cannonical disclaimer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re what s that chime ejhupper rs cmp ilstu edu eric huppertz writes b fnclub fnal gov david sachs writes those chimes indicate a hardware failure of some type during system startup one thing that can cause the chimes is a cable that has become a bit loose next time you power down the computer check that all cables are on tight i remember a simple program that would play those chimes for you when you clicked their respective buttons does anyone know where that is this was circa i think a quick search of the index at mac archive umich edu shows the following as available by anonymous ftp from that site mac util developer diagnosticsoundsampler hqx binhex that chord you hear when you push the start up on your mac ii means more than just i m on it s passed it s internal test this utility explains what the various sounds stand for i e various stages of ram testing jonathan brecher brecher mac archive umich edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re macintosh weenies suck scsi disks unknown class user writes snip i think the subject title says it all anybody that relies on a scsi dick for stoarage is a pain in the ass anything you store in there will eventually cause some discomfort over time jt
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerpc and old macs what happens then i have a few questions that i would like answers to or opinions on since i m thinking about buying a lc iii q when the powerpc based macs are announced what will happen to the x based macs q is system the last word for x based macs will we ever get real multi tasking for the mac q will there be a way for nubus pds equipped macs to add a powerpc on a board to their systems i d hate to think that i m going to put my down on a machine that in months is now part of a dead end product line thanks in advance mike norman c o bell northern research p o box station c ottawa ontario canada k y h m s internet mwnorman bnr ca tel fax hasta la vista baby a schwarzenegger
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re file sharing magneto opticals jann vanover vanover bcsaic boeing com wrote my co worker has just attached a magneto optical drive to his mac works great for him however he tried to turn on file sharing but it wouldn t work had some message about not all volumes are shareable so has anyone had success in sharing mos if so please tell me how hi he needs insert the mo before filesharing get turned on and the only one that can see the disk is the owner of the machine i m not sure but seems that the check allow owner to see entire disk should be enabled too a bad thing you can t eject the disk until fs is turned off hope that helps pablo a millan l mis opiniones son mias pero te las puedo vender email pablo ing puc cl seeds limitada santiago chile research is what i m doing when i don t know what i m doing w von braun
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lciii or used iici which should i get in article apr cheshire oxy edu erik cheshire oxy edu erik adams writes i am at long last going to replace my beloved ke i am looking at a new lc iii and a used iici prices have yet to be worked out so i m just thinking right now about their merits and drawbacks i d get the iici it s more expandable just as fast and preserves the option to run system david gutierrez drg biomath mda uth tmc edu only fools are positive moe howard
comp.sys.mac.hardware	hosed hd hey all we have an old external hd attached to the plus in our lab it had given us flawless service until last week the problem someone in our lab has an old that was upgraded a couple years ago to a plus with an aftermarket simm scsi setup digigraphics simmer the db scsi plug runs through the back of the machine and attaches to the board with a pin rectangular connector well this guy had removed the back from the machine to put more memory in and had disconnected the the scsi plug since the pin connector is symmetrical not keyed he may have reinstalled it upside down essentially reversing the pins on the db he came in and asked if he could try out our hd on his scsi port it had never been used naive fools that we are we said o k his computer failed to recognize the drive now none of the computers in our lab will recognize it we tried disk doctor and it doesn t recognize anything on the scsi chain could installing the scsi upside down have wrecked the hd s driver board the drive seems to spin up all right and unpark itself upon powerup the events are too coincidental to attribute the problem to stiction any help greatly appreciated james jak fff chem utah edu next mail
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple rgb monitor vs apple color monitor i have an old apple rgb monitor for a iigs which looks a whole lot like the monitor i have the sneaking suspicion that if i had the right cable i could use it on my mac does anyone know if my suspicions are correct or am i just full of it mkd
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re microphone in article rhp u q gazette bcm tmc edu chen nuclear med bcm tmc edu chenlin wrote i just got my new c it does not seem to come with a microphone damn the c comes with a microphone if you get the cd rom drive all other configurations don t include one
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re hardware that fits mail order in article unix andrew cmu edu christopher bruce kidwell ck andrew cmu edu writes i ordered an external floppy drive from them years ago when i placed the order they said it was in stock and would ship the next day a week passed and no drive i called them up and they said they were out of stock and my drive should ship in weeks or so since i needed the drive right away both my internal hard drive and floppy were dead i cancelled my order and haven t dealt with them since chris kidwell ck andrew cmu edu i too had a very unpleasant experience with hardware that s shi it featured repeated lies about when things had shipped a salesperson who was totally ignorant about what he was selling a charge for duties i had specifically been assured were not payable and then a monitor their house brand page monochrome that was the most unadulterated piece of junk it has ever been my misfortune to experience in the world of electronics i shipped it back and they refunded my money but it still cost me something over for long distance charges non refundable taxes and duties and lost time don t deal with them
comp.sys.mac.hardware	new powerbooks i used to hate it when people posted messages like this but now that i am contemplating a purchase i can see why they do so has anyone heard of any upcoming within the next months advances in the powerbook line can we expect to see a powerpc powerbook at some point in the future i assume an would take too much power and generate too much heat for installation in a powerbook thanks for your help
comp.sys.mac.hardware	clock speed of a centris what is the actual clock speed of a centris mhz or mhz thanks in advance peter white pw csc albany edu pwhite mac archive umich edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	formatting more than k possible a friend of mine who owns a pc said that he recently got a program that can format a disk that can exceed the normal capacity of a hd disk apparently it rewrites the driver or takes or the driver or something that allows it get more space out of a normal hd floppy disk it supposedly gets upto megs so something like k i don t have the program since i can t use it and its supposed to be called something like form or something like that my question is whether its possible to do this on the mac and if its not possible is it due to hardware limitations a developer friend of mine said that it might be possible but he doesn t deal with this aspect of the field much thanks for any information contributed steve
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sad mac scsi question i hooked up an old meg external mac hardrive to a powerbook i reformatted the drive copied all the files from the powerbook except the systemfolder deleted the files from the powerbook my biggest error sigh and then rebooted the whole set up and chimes of death i get the following sad mac error f i ran norton and it claims its a bad scsi driver and suggests replaceing it i used apples disk tools but i couldn t update the hardrives scsi driver as it claimed it was in use but i couldn t even mount the thing though i could see it when checking the scsi bus after turning it on after booting my machine first what does that error above refer to am i on the right track is there anything i can do short of intialising the drive since i need the data on there thanks ed bourne
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re formatting more than k possible applied engineering used to sell a disk drive for the apple iigs that read and wrote meg on a hd disk i wonder if the drive would work on a mac since i m using my old drive from my iigs on my iisi now just a thought tttttt eeeee vv vv eeeee tt ee vv vv ee tt eeee vv vv eeee steve liu tt ee vvv ee drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu tt eeeee v eeeee drlovemd jhuvms hcf jhu edu newsgroups comp sys mac hardware comp sys mac software subject re formatting more than k possible summary expires references c j n hpq csulb edu distribution organization homewood academic computing johns hopkins university baltimore md usa keywords in article c j n hpq csulb edu sluh beach csulb edu jeff masud writes a friend of mine who owns a pc said that he recently got a program that can format a disk that can exceed the normal capacity of a hd disk apparently it rewrites the driver or takes or the driver or something that allows it get more space out of a normal hd floppy disk it supposedly gets upto megs so something like k i don t have the program since i can t use it and its supposed to be called something like form or something like that my question is whether its possible to do this on the mac and if its not possible is it due to hardware limitations a developer friend of mine said that it might be possible but he doesn t deal with this aspect of the field much thanks for any information contributed steve applied engineering used to sell a disk drive for the apple iigs that read and wrote meg on a hd disk i wonder if the drive would work on a mac since i m using my old drive from my iigs on my iisi now just a thought tttttt eeeee vv vv eeeee tt ee vv vv ee tt eeee vv vv eeee steve liu tt ee vvv ee drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu tt eeeee v eeeee drlovemd jhuvms hcf jhu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	data transfer rate of the new series fs micropolis hd s i have a question for y all i m looking at an ad for the new fast scsi drives from micropolis in the june macworld i have seen similar ads for the ide versions in ibm pc magazines well the ad says that all three drives have a fast scsi interface but then it says that the dtr rate for each drive is megabytes second max how can this be i thought that if a drive was to be fast scsi it had to have a dtr of megs a second i am assuming the megs sec claim by micropolis is from the k cache i admit that i would be very impressed if the drive can read write data at megs a second thank you
comp.sys.mac.hardware	problem printing quark on a swii iv e got a problem printing with a stylewriterii i am printing from a iivx with megs ram i am trying to print a quark file that has fonts a couple of boxes and gradient fills two things happen i get a disk is full error that i can t find documented i also have parts of letters that are over one of the gradient fills get cut off this only happens to the text over the fill text adjecent in a different box is uneffected any ideas thanks for the help karl jacobs jacobs cerritos edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra pds video cards a friend is heavily into midi and is using a quadra maybe with all but one nubus slot populated with arcane music hardware and a video card he reports bit video is too slow for good real time display of what he needs to see he also reports that the built in video is even worse he s not a mac guru and i haven t seen the system so this is about all i know i suspect that his nubus is heavily loaded and think improvements might come from a switch to an accelerated pds slot video card does this sound right who makes a pds accelerated video card for the quadra thats worth looking at any other suggestions thanks in advance email agorski mitre org arthur m gorski snail the mitre corporation nasa road one houston texas
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris flaky in c ydqc jk cs uiuc edu scott cs uiuc edu jay scott writes a rep at the dealer actually it s a university order center so they don t have any immediate financial interest told me that they have been having lots of problems with their centris he didn t go into details but mentioned problems with the floppy drive and intermittent problems with printing files it sounded to me like they were having both hardware problems and software compatibility problems with the machine he s not recommending the centris to anybody he says to consider a centris or a iivx why he would recommend a iivx over an lciii i don t know but that s what he said so what does the net think did the dealer just get one flaky machine or did apple send the c out the door too early is your c working just great or is it buggy too jay scott scott cs uiuc edu sounds to me like your dealer really wants to get rid of the iivx s he has in stock i can imaging that they are getting hard to sell given that a c is way faster and is comparable in price an lciii is about the same speed and is way cheaper so your dealer may well be trying as hard as he can to convince people that iivx s are a much better buy than a c just so he can get rid of all his old stock no disrespect to dealers or the iivx intended jon nielsen jon cs uwa edu au department of computer science university of western australia
comp.sys.mac.hardware	disabling the eject on a mac se i m trying to find a program that will stop the macs from spitting out their boot disk i was told one exists but i can t find it anyone know where i can find it thanks robert harvey duty programmer information technology victoria university s valiant vut edu au
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help formatting nt disk array i have a northern telecom disk array dated that has two mb drives units in it and i cannot get it formatted i set the scsi id on and my software recognizes the unit but i cannot mount it or anything do i have to use both drives in the array any help with these drives or possibly newer software than what i m using fwb hdt and will be greatly appreciated grey grey mull blaine catt ncsu edu smoke pot dodge the draft cheat on gbmull eos ncsu edu your wife become president ncsu catt program the american dream
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors should they be kept on hours a day i have some questions about this subject i like to leave my computer on if i think i m going to be using it withing the next or hours but i get sick of my dad constantly coming up to me and asking why is the computer on if you re not using it i also wonder about my computer being harmed by fluctuations in voltage from other things garbage disposal etc here are my questions how much harm do voltage fluctuations cause my computer does not share a circuit with anything big but our my light dims when a refrigerator comes on or the garbage disposal is turned on whose doesn t and also when the washing machine does anything all these things cause a drop in voltage which is harmful to a computer right i also notice the fan in my system saver turning at different speeds is it safer to turn it off and back on when i want to use it or to leave it on how much electricity does my computer use i have an apple iigs ne flames with a kensington system saver gs electric fan inside an applecolor rgb monitor and an external hd fan and its own p s how do i translate this into kilowatt hours also how much of this is used by the monitor does the monitor use considerably less juice when the screen is totally black but still on many computers spin the hd up and down constantly to save power i always thought this was harmful to the hd and defeats the purpose of leaving the computer on in the first place except portables is this true thanks for the info i think this will help lots of people stacy
comp.windows.x	x server scanline padding question i am almost done porting xfree to a new piece of display hardware but have run into a snag i think may be somewhat commonplace so i m sending a net feeler i have a display that is a non interlaced memory mapped bit x display the server s view of the world obtained via xwd xwud seems to be exactly what it should be however the displayed version of the framebuffer gives the impression that the server is using scanlines that are too long after a bit of experimentation it seems that the problem was that the server was padding the line out to a word boundry but the scanline size in the buffer is bytes which isn t exactly divisible by four changing the following defines in mit server include servermd h define bitmap scanline pad define log bitmap pad define log bytes per scanline pad to define bitmap scanline pad define log bitmap pad define log bytes per scanline pad was not exactly the right solution how do i tell the server either a don t pad the scan lines at all cause this server is only being built to run on this particular display or to pad only to byte boundries i m using a customized version of xfree v under mach thanks brian
comp.windows.x	callback parameter problem after x r upgrade we ve just recently upgraded our x to r and are now running into problems with some of our applications that use motif it appears that pointer to the widget being passed to the callback function i e the w of w client call is nil the client and call pointers are okay in some instances but bogus in other instances we are running sunos on a sun after compiling x r and all patches with the motifbc flag set we recompiled motif and then we recompiled the application did we skip a step or leave something out is there a flag that we should have used should we have left motif alone any answers or suggestions would be greatly appreciated thanks kathy kathy saint she s a witch she s a witch i m not dead yet how can you tell she s a witch she looks like one saint mitchell hac com monthy python the holy grail
comp.windows.x	request unsubscribe please remove me from this mailing list we finally got our news feed ron l ron lundstrom collaborative research inc x ron cric com main street fax waltham ma
comp.windows.x	connecting a digitiser to x repost hi there i posted this to comp windows x intrinsics but got no response so i m posting here i m wanting to connect a digitiser made for pcs into my workstation an hp it is my understanding the x windows can understand a variety of input devices including digitiser tablets however this digitiser makes use of the serial port so there would seem to be a need to have a special device driver the hp manual pages say that the hp x server will accept x input from devices listed in the usr lib x x devices file display number i shouldn t think i would be able to simply insert dev rs c as an input device in this file and expect a digitiser to work but maybe i m wrong am i what i would like to know is does anybody out there have a digitiser connected to their workstation for use as a pointer for x rather than just as input to a specific x application if so what were the steps required for installation did you need a special device driver did the manufacturer supply it are there generic public domain device drivers around i understand that digitisers generally use only a couple of standard formats any help would be greatly appreciated cheers vaughan vaughan clarkson email vaughan ewd dsto gov au engineering ph d student phone glider pilot fax
comp.windows.x	summary virtual mouse in ol v wm i got the following today from gary risebrough and it worked fine excerpts from mail apr re ol v wm virtual keybo ito aodc gov au hi with regard to i have the following lines in my xresources olwm keyboardcommands full olvwm keyboardcommands full olwm grabvirtualkeys true olvwm grabvirtualkeys true i have openwindows keyboardcommands full openwindows virtualgrabkeys false which seems to work cheers gary riseborough phone gary aodc gov au
comp.windows.x	problem with xterm no access to tty i m running xterm under x r motif mwm and unix svr on a unisys based machine my default shell is bin csh or the c shell whenever i run xterm i get the following message before the first c shell prompt warning no access to tty thus no job control in this shell after this i can t run any job control commands like fg bg etc also i can t run another xterm from the command line of this xterm i can only launch additional xterms from a mwmrc menu i d appreciate some help with this problem or pointers to where i can get some help by the way my environment variable term is set to xterm saad mufti personal library software e mail mufti pls com
comp.windows.x	how can i change sun cgthree fb writes to dword hello xperts out there i ve just built x r for sunos sparc i have gcc and i d like to use its bit capability to generate an x release which will render to the frame buffer using store double bit machine code can anyone tell me which directories source files compiler switches to begin with thanks in advance spencer greene nimbus technology inc sgreene nimbus com santa clara california usa sgiblab ub gate c tech sgreene patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel dr samuel johnson
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped bradley grip cis upenn edu john bradley writes if found it answers to the name of contrib xv tar z before i even think about getting this is it going to be posted to comp sources x at any time in the near future greg greg sands department of engineering science university of auckland g sands auckland ac nz new zealand
comp.windows.x	re entrancy of xlib functions known problem i ve found a problem in the use of xlib functions regarding re entrancy i decided to implement an animated cursor using created cursors by calling xdefinecursor from a sig alrm signal handler this is used to indicate we are waiting for a operator request to complete on a production control system i was redrawing the screen underneath the animated cursor and then restoring the standard cursor when complete i found dumped core and upon analysis it was when the sig alrm handler was called during a xdrawstring call xdrawstring was doing a bcopy presumably an internal structure when the xdefinecursor was called presumably the internal structure that xdrawstring was manipulating was not in a stable state and sent xdefinecursor to where it shouldn t have been has anyone else experienced this is there any official documentation that says you should ensure this doesn t happen or should bcopy be atomic we are running on sgi irix with x r regards martin martin visser electrical software engineer engineering technology department bhp steel slab and plate products division p o box wollongong nsw australia phone ext fax e mail visser itwol bhp com au
comp.windows.x	re imake tex looking for beta testers in article rl efinnl p fbi news informatik uni dortmund de klute tommy informatik uni dortmund de rainer klute writes as i announced at the x technical conference in january i would like to make imake tex the imake support for using the tex typesetting system publically available currently imake tex is in beta test here at the computer science department of dortmund university and i am looking for some more beta testers preferably with different tex and imake installations judging from the responses so far i have not made clear enough in my article quoted above that imake tex is not for installing tex but for using it with imake tex you will never again have to fiddle around with calling latex and its various utility programs makeindex bibtex simply type make and your document s dvi file will be up to date all you have to do is to write a simple imakefile and let imake generate a suitable makefile for you here is such an imakefile include tex tmpl paperformata simplelatextarget document the generated makefile provides the following commands make depend searching the tex source files for dependencies like input somefile make dvi generate an up to date dvi file make viewdvi display it on your screen make ps generate a postscript version of your document make viewps display it make clean remove unnecessary things make veryclean remove even the dvi file make makefiles generate makefiles in subdirectories if a this seems attractive to you b you are willing to test imake tex and send me a short test report c you are willing to cope with a rudimentary english documentation however the german version is completed and included then you are invited as a beta tester i am looking forward to your e mail dipl inform rainer klute i r b immer richtig beraten univ dortmund irb postfach tel d w dortmund fax new address after june th univ dortmund d dortmund
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped in article netnews upenn edu bradley grip cis upenn edu john bradley writes from bradley grip cis upenn edu john bradley subject xv has escaped date apr gmt no not another false alarm not a it ll certainly be done by next week message no this is the real thing i repeat this is not a drill batten down the hatches hide the women and lock up the cows xv has finally escaped i was cleaning its cage this morning when it overpowered me broke down the office door and fled the lab it was last seen heading in the general direction of export lcs mit edu at nearly k per second if found it answers to the name of contrib xv tar z have a blast i m off to the vacation capital of the u s waco texas jhb
comp.windows.x	german keyboard alt gr hi ppl i am running xfree under linux sls and am trying to get the german keyboard working i have already recompiled my kernel and the german keyboard in the textmode works just fine i have found out that there is a preconfigured german keymap for x called xmodmap gr in usr lib x so i ran xmodmap usr lib x xmodmap gr my first impression was very good i was able to get z and y straight there s still a little problem i can t solve however i cannot get at the backslash bar brackets and curly brackets the alt gr key doesn t seem to work i tried xev to find out whether it produces an event at all and it does looking up its keycode in the xmodmap i found the entry mode switch which doesn t ring any bell the entries for the keys i cannot use seem to be correct example keycode xx ssharp questn backslash the first entries i can even get at the first one is the unmodified key and the second is the key with shift but what is the rd my guess is that it should be the key with alt gr but it isn t if anybody has run into similar problems and knows how to solve them help would be appreciated cu alaric
comp.windows.x	help anything about x from thu apr date thu apr from gavin fairlamb to status r hello folks i am doing a uni project and was wondering if you could supply with some specific info or references for info regarding considerations for installation of xwindows in a hp unknown model motif openlook xtoolkit x x r glossary of any term on x we considering this software for the project which deals in image analysis any info would be greatly appreciated please email to golum riv csu edu au
comp.windows.x	help anything about x from thu apr date thu apr from gavin fairlamb to status r hello folks i am doing a uni project and was wondering if you could supply with some specific info or references for info regarding considerations for installation of xwindows in a hp unknown model motif openlook xtoolkit linux x x r glossary of any term on x we considering this software for the project which deals in image analysis any info would be greatly appreciated please email to golum riv csu edu au
comp.windows.x	background processing in x applications i have written a server program which makes socket connections to many nodes and collects data from that nodes periodically i need to display this data on my x application i tried to invoke this server using xtaddapptimeout which works ok but the problem here is some time there is delay in collecting data so i doesn t returns to eventloop during that time and my application remains busy and it doesn t respond to users input i button press events are queued and exected after server finished its task now i am going to try appaddinput call so that it reads pipe only when there is something to read in pipe i am thinking of creating one pipe in which server will write and client which is my x application will read now i have some doubts which you may be able to clarify when i fork a process it will create to copy of my process right now what does this two copies mean two shells where should i fork my application what are the responsibilities of this processes how should i call this processes can i fork more than one processes so that i can read from more than one servers input thanks samir patel spatel cs tamu edu
comp.windows.x	sources for vuewm gadgets does anyone know any sites resources where i can find gadgets for the vuewm window manager such as types actions icons for the file manager and event manager etc tanks all input appreciated
comp.windows.x	re xsun not finding default font sol joel zodiac z code com joel reymont writes hi netters i ve just built x r pl under solaris i ve used the multi screen patch as well as the r sunos patch and everything builds great except for that error message xsun gives me upon startup it says cannot set default font path stuff deleted and cannot set default font fixed if i supply the fp option it doesn t complain about the font path but still complains about the font i have symlinks from usr lib to the place where my distribution lives try to run xsun under truss the best way to do this is by logging in over the network and typing truss t open xsun open opt x r lib x fonts misc fonts dir o rdonly open opt x r lib x fonts misc fonts alias o rdonly open opt x r lib x fonts speedo fonts dir o rdonly open opt x r lib x fonts speedo fonts alias o rdonly err enoent open opt x r lib x fonts dpi fonts dir o rdonly open opt x r lib x fonts dpi fonts alias o rdonly open opt x r lib x fonts dpi fonts dir o rdonly open opt x r lib x fonts dpi fonts alias o rdonly open opt x r lib x fonts misc x pcf o rdonly open opt x r lib x fonts misc cursor pcf o rdonly this will give you and idea of where xsun things the fonts should be if you have defined a project root and done a make install everything should have gone right by default even without symbolic links casper
comp.windows.x	x audio extension is there an official extension to x which allows the use of audio most of the x audio programs use system specific ways to access the audio capabilities of the computer they run on is there a hardware independent way to do this like the video extension xv thanks for any help erik wilde wilde tik ethz ch swiss federal institute of technology eth zuerich laboratory of computer engineering and networks tik eth zentrum etz g ch zuerich phone fax
comp.windows.x	imake tex looking for beta testers as i announced at the x technical conference in january i would like to make imake tex the imake support for using the tex typesetting system publically available currently imake tex is in beta test here at the computer science department of dortmund university and i am looking for some more beta testers preferably with different tex and imake installations dipl inform rainer klute i r b immer richtig beraten univ dortmund irb postfach tel d w dortmund fax new address after june th univ dortmund d dortmund
comp.windows.x	re save under with x r hans bos hans xelion nl wrote i have the following problem on x r servers when a window of my is obscured by a pop up window which has the save under attribute set the subwindows of my window are not restored normally the subwindows are redrawn when the parent window gets an expose event but because the save under attribute is used for the pop up window that obscured my window no expose event is sent we had the same problem and on most of our machines it works if we use backing store instead of save under marcus marcus schnell marcus iiasa ac at international institute for applied systems analysis iiasa a laxenburg austria phone fax vice commissioner of the australian rules internet football league arifl
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped in netnews upenn edu bradley grip cis upenn edu john bradley writes batten down the hatches hide the women and lock up the cows xv has finally escaped it really bums me out that xv went shareware xv is shareware for personal use only you may use xv for your own what does this mean anyway can i sit in a company and look at pictures off the net in my spare time amusement and if you find it nifty useful generally cool or of some value to you your non deductable donation would be greatly appreciated is the suggested donation though of course larger donations are quite welcome folks who donate or more can receive a real nice bound copy of the xv manual for no extra charge commercial government and institutional users must register their copies of xv for the exceedingly reasonable price of just per workstation x terminal site licenses are available for those who wish to run xv on a large number of machines contact the author for more details now since universities are institutions right doesn t this mean that most everyone in the world is affected by this i don t believe there are that many running x windows at home yet relatively speaking can the author legally sell xv xv uses tiff and jpeg code developed by others did the author get permission to sell these works did the author also get permission from all the people who contributed to xv to sell their work as well my guess is that now nobody is going to want to help the author maintain the code anymore now that xv has become a commercial product and support for xv will begin to slide downhill if this is the case then that s a bummer i really liked xv chris sherman sherman lea csc ncsu edu
comp.windows.x	cannot create plane window hello x ers i have a problem i am not able to create a window with bit planes the following code illustrates the problem include stdio h include x xlib h include x xutil h main display display window win xvisualinfo vinfo colormap colormap xsetwindowattributes attributes xevent event status status display xopendisplay null status xmatchvisualinfo display defaultscreen display truecolor vinfo if status fprintf stderr visual not found n exit colormap xcreatecolormap display defaultrootwindow display vinfo visual allocnone attributes colormap colormap win xcreatewindow display defaultrootwindow display inputoutput vinfo visual cwcolormap attributes xmapwindow display win for xnextevent display event i tried this with an sgi with plane truecolor server and with an hp plane directcolor server with the obviously neccessary change both running x r on the client side i have tried with x r xlib on hp and decstation and with x r xlib on decstation all the combinations gave badmatch error on the createwindow request as far as i can tell from the manual the only attribute which may give a badmatch is the colormap if it belongs to a wrong visual but the visual was correctly matched as i did not get the error message what am i doing wrong for information i can tell that xwud aborts with the same error karsten internet krs kampsax dk karsten spang phone kampsax data fax p o box dk hvidovre denmark
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped in article netnews upenn edu bradley grip cis upenn edu john bradley writes no not another false alarm not a it ll certainly be done by next week message no this is the real thing i repeat this is not a drill batten down the hatches hide the women and lock up the cows xv has finally escaped i was cleaning its cage this morning when it overpowered me broke down the office door and fled the lab it was last seen heading in the general direction of export lcs mit edu at nearly k per second if found it answers to the name of contrib xv tar z have a blast i m off to the vacation capital of the u s waco texas and here is the first patch the following fixes some problems with the imakefile files and makes it possible to compile xv under solaris without having to use the ucb stuff imakefile objs xcmap o programs xv bggen vdcomp xcmap if defined havejpeg defined havetiff ifdef havejpeg objs xcmap o programs xv bggen vdcomp xcmap all echo echo did you remember to make depend first echo if defined havejpeg defined havetiff ifdef havejpeg subdirs tiff endif define passcdebugflags makesubdirs subdirs dependsubdirs dubdirs endif all echo echo did you remember to make depend first echo all echo building xv echo subdirs tiff endif define passcdebugflags define ihavesubdirs makesubdirs subdirs endif all echo building xv echo srcs srcs srcs srcs srcs dependtarget alltarget programs normalprogramtarget xv objs deplibs local libraries normalprogramtarget bggen objs deplibs local libraries srcs srcs srcs srcs srcs alltarget programs dependtarget ifdef ihavesubdirs dependsubdirs subdirs endif normalprogramtarget xv objs deplibs local libraries normalprogramtarget bggen objs deplibs local libraries xv h signal macros if defined sun defined sysv define hold sig sighold sigalrm define release sig sigrelse define pause sig sigpause else define hold sig sigblock sigmask sigalrm define release sig sigblock define pause sig sigpause endif default for most folks define random rand define srandom srand endif if defined sun defined sysv define random rand define srandom x srand x endif xcmap c include files include stdio h if defined sun defined sysv include string h else include strings h endif include ctype h include x xos h tiff imakefile tif compress o imakefile if hasgcc g states h mkg states c t h rm g states h cc traditional o mkg states cflags mkg states c mkg states g states h rm g states h else g states h mkg states c t h rm g states h cc o mkg states cflags mkg states c mkg states g states h rm g states h endif depend g states h clean rm mkg states g states h dependtarget george lindholm phone university computing services ubc fax agricultural road vancouver b c canada internet lindholm ucs ubc ca v t z bitnet usergnl ubcmtsg
comp.windows.x	x server documentaion where can i get documentation about the x server internals btw i m also interested in documentation about tiga any hints welcome thanks rainer rainer hochreiter telephone elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax penzingerstr a wien austria europe e mail rainer elin co at
comp.windows.x	re menubutton widget question scott evans server cs virginia edu writes i m trying to create a button that has both a label and a bitmap using the menubutton widget is this possible right now all i get is the bitmap no sign of the label that s expected the first sentence describing the bitmap resource in the menubutton section of the athena widget set c language interface documentation states bitmap a bitmap to display instead of the label one way round this might be to make use of the button s backgroundpixmap resource but remember that you or a user of your application won t be able to set it from a resource file also the button won t automatically be the size of the bitmap the bitmap will be tiled if necessary or you could set the button s dimensions to match its size jim j k wight newcastle ac uk department of computing science university of newcastle tel newcastle upon tyne ne ru united kingdom fax
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped wasn t the shareware fee a suggestion by john is so then it s up to the individual to make the choice whether or not to honour it and part with money personally if i was in his position i would do exactly the same thing john has obviously put in lot of time and effort into xv and why shouldn t he receive some money for it just my pennies worth keep up the good work john julian name julian g self phone ext email julian comp lancs ac uk fax post university of lancaster department of computing engineering building bailrigg lancaster lancashire la yr united kingdom
comp.windows.x	button sensitivity problem motif app under openwindows the motif application consists of multiple transient shells as children of a single toplevel shell appshell toplevelshell transientshell transientshell while a transient shell is popped up my application modifies the sensitivity of a button in the toplevel shell which is hidden by the transient shell window when the transient shell is popped down the button sensitivity is correct but the button text remains unchanged i e solid shaded subsequent selection of the button causes the text to revert to the correct visual state when tracing event messages sent to the application many of the events seen under mwm are not present under openwindows if anyone has any suggestions or solutions please post or send me mail thanks
comp.windows.x	re cannot create plane window summary in article apr nbivax nbi dk spang nbivax nbi dk karsten spang writes i have a problem i am not able to create a window with bit planes gave badmatch error on the createwindow request as far as i can tell from the manual the only attribute which may give a badmatch is the colormap if it belongs to a wrong visual but the visual was correctly matched i got several answers the most complete was from errol crary errolc tv tv tek com i have just looked at the r server listings mit server dix window c and there are several ways in which you can get a badmatch error even though my o reilly book only says borderwidth is nonzero for inputonly if class inputonly bw depth find out if the depth and visual are acceptable for this screen if vmask cwborderpixmap cwborderpixel class inputonly depth pparent drawable depth if vmask cwcolormap class inputonly visual ancwopt visual ancwopt colormap none so case is inputonly which is not your case it seems to be the o reilly case case should not be the case since you got the visual for the screen case looks suspicious you are giving no cwborder in the attribute mask and since the visual is not the parent depth i would suspect you need to supply a border pixel from the new colormap you are going to use for this window case does not seem to be the problem since you do supply the cwcolormap in the attributes thanks for your help karsten internet krs kampsax dk karsten spang phone kampsax data fax p o box dk hvidovre denmark
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped sherman lea csc ncsu edu chris sherman gripes it really bums me out that xv went shareware xv s been shareware for about a year hadn t you noticed i don t have a problem with this john bradley has put a hell of a lot of work into xv and if he feels that it s time to get some monetary reward from it that s surely his right can the author legally sell xv xv uses tiff and jpeg code developed by others did the author get permission to sell these works had you bothered to consult the distribution terms of the ijg jpeg code which are right there in the xv distribution you would have observed that we specifically grant permission for use in shareware and commercial software sam leffler s libtiff copyright also grants permission for unrestricted use including resale my guess is that now nobody is going to want to help the author maintain the code anymore now that xv has become a commercial product commercial there s a big difference between a polite request for a voluntary donation and commercial it s illegal to copy this and we ll sic our lawyers on you software i do agree that john s readme file could be a little clearer about what he means by personal use regards tom lane organizer independent jpeg group
comp.windows.x	re xlib timeouts in article ccdw kudu ccdw kudu ru ac za dave wilson writes i am in the process of modifying an x application that uses xlib i d like to include a timer driven facility for network polling you have to do the same sorts of things that xt does with its main loop that is you have to rig up a timer queue and you have to put a select or poll call in your main loop you can obtain the file descriptor of the x display connection using fd connectionnumber display the functionality of the main loop dispatcher in xt is quite useful the good news is you can get the source and plagiarize
comp.windows.x	re summary virtual mouse in ol v wm in article frolv awvi iv s andrew cmu edu derrick j brashear db andrew cmu edu writes i got the following today from gary risebrough and it worked fine excerpts from mail apr re ol v wm virtual keybo ito aodc gov au i have openwindows keyboardcommands full openwindows virtualgrabkeys false which seems to work where can i find man pages about virtualgrabkeys resource it doesn t show up in my openwindows man pages s s larry w virden inet lvirden cas org s personal falls place reynoldsburg oh
comp.windows.x	re imake tex looking for beta testers in article rnodlinnlde fbi news informatik uni dortmund de klute tommy informatik uni dortmund de rainer klute writes if a this seems attractive to you b you are willing to test imake tex and send me a short test report c you are willing to cope with a rudimentary english documentation however the german version is completed and included then you are invited as a beta tester i am looking forward to your e mail please don t respond anymore i have enough beta testers now thank you dipl inform rainer klute i r b immer richtig beraten univ dortmund irb postfach tel d w dortmund fax new address after june th univ dortmund d dortmund
comp.windows.x	need help with mit magic cookie i m trying to turn on xauthorization using mit magic cookie on my servers cpu heads hp rx xterminals but i m running into a couple of problems first at least one of our applications maple doesn t seem to understand how to deliver the magic cookie and won t run on a display with authorization turned on second we have people with client software on remote machines and i really don t want to hassle them with having to copy their xauthority file to the remote machine assuming that the clients there support xauthorization so what i would like to do is turn on mit magic cookie by default with non privileged users able to turn it off dropping back to host based authorization yes i know how to turn it off by changing the xconfig file for the heads and the client authorize setting for the xterminals but non privileged users can t do this i ve checked with the hp support line and there doesn t appear to be a way can anyone confirm this or do you know of a way to accomplish what i want btw i m running hpux and vue thanks in advance rick rick mcteague electrical engineering department speed scientific school university of louisville louisville ky internet sysrick starbase spd louisville edu disclaimer i m a stand up comedian if anyone takes me seriously i m doing something wrong
comp.windows.x	re overriding default wm behaviour specify ramdomplacement or randomplace in your tvtwmrc this places the windows not interactively in pseudo random positions on your screens
comp.windows.x	buttonpress buttonrelease events multiple clients how can i capture buttonpress buttonrelease events in multiple clients i want to know if the user is still at the display before locking the screen i can get keypress keyrelease and pointer motion events but if the user is pressing the mouse button in the same location the mouse doesn t move i can t capture the events the o reilly xlib programming manual vol says on page only one client can select button events on any one window at one time due to the grab that automatically takes place any help would be appreciated deryl steinert dus ornl gov
comp.windows.x	congruent corporation x motif on windows nt ok many people emailed me asking for information on congruent corporation s product which allows x motif unix applications to function on windows nt today i was sent a telephone number by a kind person by the name of sam i d give better attribution but the mail is in a different application on vms the number to call in new york city is the email address is info congruent com the product is ntnix other details i do not know they said they d send me email info but as yet it has not arrived more as i get it cheers folks snail lsl co uk washing one s hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful not to be neutral quote by freire poster by oxfam
comp.windows.x	congruent corporation x motif more info here follows a headerless my editing email message in full except for the header sent to me by congruent corporation today i received it about minutes ago and still haven t read it have fun product overview allows existing unix x applications to be hosted on windows nt includes common x support clients supports x terminals provides multiuser nt facilitates porting unix x applications to window nt bsd behavior x programming libraries target market customers with unix x applications who want to standardize on windows nt allows hosting on windows nt with minimal effort permits x clients on single windows nt system to support multiple users x servers can be x terminals unix based nt based windows based bsd library behavior minimize unix porting effort layered above standard c libraries winsock nt registry path drive replacement bsd include file layout true berkeley sockets supplies common bsd functions missing from nt x programming libraries complete x v r libraries motif widget libraries motif uil registry based x configuration locator direct to windows gdi via local socket winnt x support applications includes full set of x client applications motif window manager mwm multiuser nt capabilities ntnixterm special adaptation of xterm special nt hosted command shell provides logname home facilities multiple users on multiple x servers can simultaneously access single nt system x terminal support bootp to boot x terminals tftpd for font loading font server for scaled x fonts xremote for serial slip x info com congruent congruent information snail lsl co uk washing one s hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful not to be neutral quote by freire poster by oxfam
comp.windows.x	click to focus vs point to focus i am having the problem of ensuring point to focus when the mouse cursor enters a window in my application i m using interviews but that may not matter this seems to be a generic problem in x for example i use openwindows on a sparc with point to focus set and that generally works but not always depending on what was going on in some window when i move the cursor from one shell tool window to another or so it seems my question then is what can i do within x to guarantee point to focus within my application thanks for any response dave
comp.windows.x	x on amiga hi there were a couple of articles posted to this group the other day with the above subject heading unfortunately they expired before i could read them i could really use an xterm like thing on my amiga could somwone give me any information thanks larry r nittler
comp.windows.x	wanted diagram drawing program i am looking for a program to draw various kinds of diagrams on my linux system it must be free it must run on standard monochrome x with a small screen size x no motif openlook etc it must compile under linux with gcc g most generic unix software works ok it must produce postscript files that i can include into latex documents with dvips or just tell me another free program that converts one of the supported formats to ps it must produce drawings that are larger than the window size scrollable i know of several such programs idraw xfig tgif i have no experience with any of them features i would like in the programs are ability to draw circles arcs straight lines boxes and arrows support for both dashed and solid line styles for all of these objects support for texts in any size ability to move copy resize rotate any part of the drawing ability to turn any part of the drawing into a library component e g a transistor symbol composed of three lines an arrow and a circle any aid numeric coordinates screen grid to align parts of the drawing less essential but in fact very handy preservation of connection if i move one part of the drawing the lines that connect that part to the rest of the drawing stay connected ideally i want the tool so general and flexible that it is comfortable to draw electronic schematics flow charts logic diagrams data flow diagrams and block diagrams with it i just want to know which of the programs offer which of the features on my whishlist and are there any other programs how demanding are the programs with respect to disk space memory and cpu usage are any of the programs known to work on linux with monochrome x lennart
comp.windows.x	aix version of andrew the andrew consortium of the school of computer science at carnegie mellon is pleased to announce auis for aix the andrew user interface system version our cdrom version was developed for aix version on the ibm rs and many other platforms to accomodate aix version we have created a patch to the sources the patch and accompanying instructions for its application can be retrieved at no charge via anonymous ftp from the internet host emsworth andrew cmu edu in the directory aixpatch for those without internet access a diskette can be ordered for by sending or faxing a purchase order to the address below the base system can be ordered from us as a cdrom or ftp ed from the same host note that this patch adds no additional functionality but simply allows auis to compile under aix the andrew user interface system auis is a comprehensive environment on top of x windows in which you can create use and mail multi media applications and documents a major advantage of auis is the capability to recursively embed objects thus one can edit text that not only contains multiple fonts indentation and other typography but also contains embedded raster images spreadsheets drawing editors equations simple animations and so on these embedded objects can themselves contain other objects including text auis has three components the andrew user environment is an integrated and extensible set of applications beginning with the ez text editor a help system a system monitoring tool an editor based shell interface and other editors corresponding to the various available types of objects the andrew toolkit atk is a portable object oriented user interface toolkit that provides the architecture wherein objects can be embedded in one another with the toolkit programmers can create new objects that can be embedded as easily as those that come with the system the andrew message system ams provides a multi media interface to mail and bulletin boards ams supports several mail management strategies and implements many advanced features including authentication return receipts automatic sorting of mail vote collection and tabulation enclosures audit trails of related messages and subscription management it also provides a variety of interfaces that support ttys and low function personal computers in addition to high function workstations the current public release of andrew version includes support for the new internet mime multipurpose internet mail extensions standards for multipart multimedia mail a newer release for members of the andrew consortium has numerous additional features including new editors for drawings images fonts and user preferences remote andrew demo service you can try out andrew from your own work station via the remote andrew demo service you need a host machine on the internet running the x window system you ll be able to compose multimedia documents navigate through the interactive andrew tour and use the andrew message system to browse through a few of cmu s four thousand bulletin boards and newsgroups to get started with the remote andrew demo service simply run the following command on your machine finger help atk itc cmu edu the service will give you further instructions more information about andrew is available from information requests andrew consortium carnegie mellon university smith hall forbes avenue pittsburgh pa usa phone fax info andrew request andrew cmu edu contact info andrew request andrew cmu edu for additional information
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comp.windows.x	x r vs x r configure event handling repost i have two questions well probably more about how expose configure events are handled i have an appl which uses window to draw in since i give the user the capability of scaling and zooming as well as allowing the window to be resized i made a translation table for the expose configure events the expose event calls my redraw method while the configure event calls my rescale method the rescale method invokes a fake expose event actually just calls the redraw w an appropriate expose struct to draw the data quest when the appl is compiled linked w r running in either r or r env i get multiple redraws when the window gets uncovered or the size is changed i assume i m getting cascading events is that right any suggestions as to how to handle trap events in a better way quest when the appl is compiled linked w r i get no expose events whatsoever do events and or translation tables act differently in r thanks in advance steve kelley umcp cs umiacs captain i protest skelley umiacs umd edu i am not a merry man worf
comp.windows.x	print from within an application hi i have an application which draws graphs bar charts etc i need to include print support for these from within my application i e a user can print the graphs from within the applictaion by clicking on a print button i am not sure if i can invoke xwd xpr from within my application and specify the window id to get my window dump and then send this file for printing or if there are other ways of doing this i would appreciate any help in this regard thanx mahendra ps please mail your replies to me as i am not a regular reader of this news group i will post a summary if there is sufficient interest mahendra chheda mmc cs rit edu mmc ritvax isc rit edu office residence dept of computer science kimball drive rochester institute of tech rochester ny tel tel
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comp.windows.x	re looking for david e smyth christian mollard ec bull fr writes zvi nynexst com zvi guter writes the author of wcl or the current care taker his is the only name i found in the dist tree i have tried to mail him at david smyth ap mchp sni de but the mail bounced back any help in finding him will be greatly appreciated try david ap uucp david ap ztivax siemens com nope here i am david jpl devvax jpl nasa gov david smyth david jpl devvax jpl nasa gov senior software engineer do not use v mail yet cccp x and object guru office c jet propulsion lab m s oak grove drive pasadena ca that sun windows thingy what s it called you know its really awful x motif that s it motif yuck
comp.windows.x	subscrive please subscribe me e mail rpicas porto inescn pt
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped in rmhiuinnh a skeena ucs ubc ca lindholm ucs ubc ca george lindholm writes in article rlhhkinng skeena ucs ubc ca lindholm ucs ubc ca george lindholm writes in article netnews upenn edu bradley grip cis upenn edu john bradley writes and here is the first patch the following fixes some problems with the imakefile files and makes it possible to compile xv under solaris without having to use the ucb stuff oops i didn t get the signal processing right thats what i get from doing the work on an ascii terminal here is the fixed patch the patches for xv h need to use ifdef svr rather than the overly complex if defined sun defined sysv in order to generically compile xv on i svr architecture also rand and srand don t work very well use lrand and seed to get better results otherwise xv compiles just fine on my esix system v box with xfree and gcc i just uncommented the gcc definition in the makefile added l usr x lib i usr x include to the copts line and modified libs to include lsocket lnsl really john if you just use the imakefile things like this don t even have to get mentioned xv h signal macros ifdef svr define hold sig sighold sigalrm define release sig sigrelse sigalrm define pause sig sigpause sigalrm else define hold sig sigblock sigmask sigalrm define release sig sigblock define pause sig sigpause endif default for most folks define random rand define srandom srand endif ifdef svr define random lrand define srandom seed endif
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped in article apr comp lancs ac uk julian comp lancs ac uk julian g self writes wasn t the shareware fee a suggestion by john is so then it s up to the individual to make the choice whether or not to honour it and part with money personally if i was in his position i would do exactly the same thing john has obviously put in lot of time and effort into xv and why shouldn t he receive some money for it it is interesting to look at the change s of mind that john has had the author file for xgif an early incarnation of xv reads in part as follows do whatever you want with this program though it would be nice if my name remained on it somewhere other than that it may be freely modified distributed and used to fill up disk space the readme file for xv reads in part as follows note if you like the program and decide to use it please send me a short email message to that effect be sure to mention the full name of your organization when our sponsors ask us what have you been doing it would be most handy to be able to come up with a nice long list of organizations that are using code developed in the grasp lab brownie points as it were the copyright notices as it appeared then was copyright by the university of pennsylvania permission to use copy and distribute for non commercial purposes is hereby granted without fee providing that the above copyright notice appear in all copies and that both the copyright notice and this permission notice appear in supporting documentation the software may be modified for your own purposes but modified versions may not be distributed this software is provided as is without any express or implied warranty the readme file for xv reads in part as follows also if you find xv to be nifty useful generally cool and of some value to you your donation not tax deductable would be greatly appreciated u s is probably a fine amount to donate folks who donate and up will receive a nice bound copy of the xv manual printed on a spiffo dpi laser printer it ll look lovely mounted over your fireplace which looks to me as a suggestion see julian s comment above the copyright notices as it appeared then was copyright by john bradley and the university of pennsylvania the readme for xv reads in part as follows xv is shareware for personal use only you may use xv for your own amusement and if you find it nifty useful generally cool or of some value to you your non deductable donation would be greatly appreciated is the suggested donation though of course larger donations are quite welcome folks who donate or more can receive a printed bound copy of the xv manual for no extra charge if you want one just ask be sure to specify the version of xv that you are using commercial government and institutional users must register their copies of xv for the exceedingly reasonable price of just per workstation x terminal site licenses are available for those who wish to run xv on a large number of machines contact the author for more details the second paragraph to me says that universities must register and pay a potentially large sum of money the copyright notices now read copyright by john bradley was this developed on upenn s time equipment what do they and the grasp lab mentioned above have to say about all this richard bingle bingle cs purdue edu dept of computer sciences backbone purdue bingle purdue university west lafayette in
comp.windows.x	re how to mask the left button one way to mask the left button check the contents of the xevent that the xaddeventhandler send to your event handling function in your case it is the show mouse position function if the xevent arrive in this function as xevent p event then the value of p event xbutton button is the button that was pressed so you just do a switch on that value in order to distinguish between them in case it was not clear p event xevent button is an int by the way you mentioned the button motionmask and if anyone can help me with these motionmasks i would be grateful i can not figure out how do distinguish between motions by which button is pressed as the motion is occurring in essence i would like an seperate event handler for motion with each button unfortunately the xevent sent by a motionmask does not seem to contain the value of the pressed button any ideas eps
comp.windows.x	non roman font availability can anybody tell me anything about the availibility of non roman fonts for x windows especially unicode and or han idiographic fonts also how about conversion tools for getting pc macintosh fonts into a format suitable for x i would assume it is not too difficult for bitmap fonts the faq s for this group and comp fonts are not very helpful on these questions matthew m freedman u of washington information systems mattf cac washington edu th ave ne rd floor seattle wa
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped in article rlhhkinng skeena ucs ubc ca lindholm ucs ubc ca george lindholm writes in article netnews upenn edu bradley grip cis upenn edu john bradley writes no not another false alarm not a it ll certainly be done by next week message no this is the real thing i repeat this is not a drill batten down the hatches hide the women and lock up the cows xv has finally escaped i was cleaning its cage this morning when it overpowered me broke down the office door and fled the lab it was last seen heading in the general direction of export lcs mit edu at nearly k per second if found it answers to the name of contrib xv tar z have a blast i m off to the vacation capital of the u s waco texas and here is the first patch the following fixes some problems with the imakefile files and makes it possible to compile xv under solaris without having to use the ucb stuff oops i didn t get the signal processing right thats what i get from doing the work on an ascii terminal here is the fixed patch imakefile objs xcmap o programs xv bggen vdcomp xcmap if defined havejpeg defined havetiff ifdef havejpeg objs xcmap o programs xv bggen vdcomp xcmap all echo echo did you remember to make depend first echo if defined havejpeg defined havetiff ifdef havejpeg subdirs tiff endif define passcdebugflags makesubdirs subdirs dependsubdirs dubdirs endif all echo echo did you remember to make depend first echo all echo building xv echo subdirs tiff endif define passcdebugflags define ihavesubdirs makesubdirs subdirs endif all echo building xv echo srcs srcs srcs srcs srcs dependtarget alltarget programs normalprogramtarget xv objs deplibs local libraries normalprogramtarget bggen objs deplibs local libraries srcs srcs srcs srcs srcs alltarget programs dependtarget ifdef ihavesubdirs dependsubdirs subdirs endif normalprogramtarget xv objs deplibs local libraries normalprogramtarget bggen objs deplibs local libraries xcmap c include files include stdio h if defined sun defined sysv include string h else include strings h endif include ctype h include x xos h xv h signal macros if defined sun defined sysv define hold sig sighold sigalrm define release sig sigrelse sigalrm define pause sig sigpause sigalrm else define hold sig sigblock sigmask sigalrm define release sig sigblock define pause sig sigpause endif default for most folks define random rand define srandom srand endif if defined sun defined sysv define random rand define srandom x srand x endif tiff imakefile tif compress o imakefile if hasgcc g states h mkg states c t h rm g states h cc traditional o mkg states cflags mkg states c mkg states g states h rm g states h else g states h mkg states c t h rm g states h cc o mkg states cflags mkg states c mkg states g states h rm g states h endif depend g states h clean rm mkg states g states h dependtarget
comp.windows.x	x face i m not familiar at all with the format of these x face thingies but after seeing them in some folks headers i ve got to see them and maybe make one of my own i ve got dpg view on my linux box which displays uncompressed x faces and i ve managed to compile un compface too but now that i m looking for them i can t seem to find any x face s in anyones news headers could you would you please send me your x face header i know i ll probably get a little swamped but i can handle it i hope rick miller rick ee uwm edu ricxjo discus mil wi us ricxjo muelisto send a postcard get one back enposxtigu bildkarton kaj vi ricevos alion rick miller woods muskego wis usa
comp.windows.x	re x server documentation where can i get documentation about the x server internals btw i m also interested in documentation about tiga any hints welcome thanks rainer rainer hochreiter telephone elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax penzingerstr a wien austria europe e mail rainer elin co a the only book i know of is the x window system server x version release by elias israel erik fortune digital press copyright order number ey l e dp dp isbn ph isbn but if there are any more please post email me the names bkilgore thus spake the master programmer after three days without programming life becomes meaningless geoffrey james the tao of programming disclaimer any and all opinions are mine william bruce kilgore email bkilgore ws ips iacd honeywell com phone or smail n black canyon hwy phoenix az
comp.windows.x	getting openbugs for motif hello the title just about says it all i need a list of the bugs for motif thanks neal
comp.windows.x	xmtextfield truncation with lang bug i have found a situation which i think is a bug in x or motif but i m hoping is really just a mistake on my part does anyone know anything about this problem i am using an xmtextfield and setting its xmnvalue to a hardcoded text string ascii or kanji either via xtsetvalues or xmtextsetstring the problem is that when the xmtextfield is displayed the text is getting truncated depending on the setting of the environment variables lang more specifically lc all when they are set to japanese the text gets truncated when they are set to english everything works fine i am taking the default for xmncolumns please note that hardcoding of text is not done in my actual application just in my sample code to make things easier i am running motif x r via hpux my test program is set up to handle bit kanji characters i have remembered to do xtsetlanguageproc prior to my mrminitialize and my font resources are set to japanese fonts don t know if this matters but my dialog box and textfield is initially created with uil the problem does not happen with xmtext unfortunately substituting xmtextfields with xmtexts in my application is not an acceptable alternative way too much code to be modified while in beta i have a small test program which illustrates the problem if anyone wants it my best guess is that either the x code or motif is not properly allocating memory for japanese but since i don t have the source to look at it is just a guess please let me know if this sounds familiar or if you have a suggestion or if you want the sample program thanks susan swalker bbn com
comp.windows.x	re xt intrinsics slow popups in article apr alex com bryan alex com bryan boreham writes the shell is waiting for the window manager to respond to its positioning request the window manager is not responding because it thinks the window is already in the right place exactly why the two components get into this sulk is unclear to me all information greatly received this problem is caused by a bad interaction between the way olwm reparents windows a misfeature of the x protocol and a bug in the xt intrinsics the intrinsics bug is that it ignores the x y position given in reparentnotify events olwm is structured in such a way that when a window is popped down the last event the client receives is a reparentnotify event at this point the intrinsics notion of the shell s location is out of date if a setvalues is done using the same x y position the intrinsics thinks it needs to move the shell so it issues a configurewindow request to move it there however a mis feature of the x protocol is that a configurewindow request that has no effect will generate no configurenotify event the intrinsics thus waits for an event that will never arrive and times out after wmtimeout has expired actually things are somewhat more complex because the request is redirected to the window manager but the net result is the same the solution is for the intrinsics to note the x y positioning information in reparentnotify events this has been implemented and is available in x r public fix this is xbug for those of you who are interested in gorier details s marks stuart w marks stuart marks eng sun com window systems technology garcia ave m s sunsoft inc mountain view ca
comp.windows.x	xview window positioning problems i don t seem to be able to get window positions reliably through the xview xv get function x int xv get my frame xv x y int xv get my frame xv y for example if i set xv x xv y to the frame comes up in the correct position with the top left corner the size handle at xv get returns as well but later on xv get returns without any intervening xv set my frame xv my frame is fitted around a canvas and it turns out by measuring on the screen that is the position of the first pixel in my canvas relative to the frame s origin what gives any help most appreciated derek p s on a related subject is there any way of querying the window manager as to the thickness of borders it puts around frames etc derek c richardson tel x institute of astronomy fax cambridge u k cb ha e mail dcr mail ast cam ac uk
comp.windows.x	subscrive please subscrive me rpicas porto inescn pt
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped i ve found that i have to add the option for displaying jpegs with the new version for some reason if i don t it goes into bit mode and the resulting image is displayed with colors from a x x array instead of and looks grainier since i m on the ubiquitous bit pseudo color display i would have thought it could tell that this is news this is your peter scott nasa jpl caltech brain on news any questions pjs euclid jpl nasa gov
comp.windows.x	x r support for i gx does x r support the graphics accelerator board in the sun i thanks in advance colin
comp.windows.x	repost cose gui this is a repost i like to find out more about this also message part text the cose announcement specifies that motif will become the common gui but what does this mean exactly do they mean that all cose complient apps will have the motif look and feel do they mean that all cose complient apps will use the motif toolkit api do they mean both of the above is it possible that there will be a motif api complient toolkit with an openlook look feel how about an olit xview oi interviews api toolkit with a motif l f i know oi already does this but will this be considered cose complient will there be more than one standard toolkit api or l f supported how does using tooltalk fit in with motif this is my attempt to start a discussion in order to pull as much knowledge about these questions off the net feel free to e mail or followup gil tene some days it just doesn t pay devil imp hellnet org to go to sleep in the morning devil diablery a com
comp.windows.x	problem with german keyboard on a sparc yesterday i changed the us keyboard of my sparc with a german keyboard and now i cannot get any alt graph characters tilde usw when i exit from x i can get the characters but not under x can anybody give me some hints where to check for the correct installation of the keyboard martin kreutzer
comp.windows.x	what is second best answers please by e mail since not all groups in the header are carried here hi personally i like nextstep very much even more when i realise how much a burden ordinary x or windows programming is i also like objective c better than i like c but sometimes the restrictions are there for instance it sometimes has to be ms windows or x now i m looking for pointers to tools on those environments that come close to nextstep the appkit etc also environs that support rapid prototyping like with ib without producing spaghetti code as soon as you want to do real work maybe stepstone with some windows version of a kit of ui objects interviews what it is exactly i don t know i kind of lost touch with that world when i started with nextstep thanks gerben wierda nerd tel if you don t know where you are going any road will take you there from the talmud rephrased in lewis carroll alice in wonderland
comp.windows.x	sun with sunos as x terminal at the moment i am using a sun cgfour bwtwo with sunos and openwindows this configuration is slow and i can t run all the programs on ow for example when i start a mailtool from ow and display it on my ow display i can t open the compose window i want to install an x r or x r server on my sun and use xdm yes we have xdm already running for other x terminals to log in and start the x programs is there a ready to go binairy of the x server for my configuration i have read something about xsun or must i compile the x stuff by myself any help is welcome v smeets vincent smeets competence center informatik gmbh smeets cci de software engineering ada whois vs meppen germany
comp.windows.x	preventing user from hitting ctrl alt bksp to exit x hello i am admin for an rs running aix x r motif and xdt i want to prevent the user from hitting cntl alt bkspc to exit x i ve tried invoking x with xinit t but that doesn t work xinit appends the t to the call to xinitrc and not to the call to x the man page to xinit is no help in fact it tells me that xinit is a script when it is really a binary file so far the only way i ve been able to accomplish this feat is to add the t to the call to x in usr lpp x defaults xserverrc i would rather not do it this way does anyone have any other ideas brian deford internet deford netwrx nw com open networks inc usenet uunet netwrx deford commerce park dr tel reston va fax i want to prevent the
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped it is interesting to look at the change s of mind that john has had very interested indeed this is against this kind of changes that the gnu copyleft is protecting us anyway at simulog we will abandon xv we were using it mostly for slide shows because of its loop feature that display does not have display from the wonderful imagemagick package d but i think i will implement it myself even a shell script should do the job and forget xv cheers christophe muller simulog fr are you the police no ma am we re musicians
comp.windows.x	colormap problem i am saving an image on one machine and redisplaying the image on another machine both are hp model s the image is created using xcreateimage and xgetimage and displayed with xputimage the image is redisplayed correctly except that the colors are wrong because the server on the other machine is using a different colormap i tried saving the colormap pixel and rgb values and on the redisplay performed a table lookup against the new colormap this didn t work because some rgb combos don t exist in the new colormap is there a way to force the server to load colors into set pixel values or is there a simpler way to solve this problem i tried using xinitcolormap but couldn t get that to work either any help would be appreciated don lemoine naval surface warfare center dahlgren division dahlgren va dlemoin xobu nswc navy mil
comp.windows.x	dce rpc threads x motif clients has anyone used dce threads with an x client is it possible to have one thread listening for incoming rpcs while another processes x events how do you set something like this up atul apara ctp com
comp.windows.x	glasgow rx remote execution of x programs part i posted this a few weeks back but all i got back was an error message pnews dev null permission denied yep dev null had a mode of arrghhh with renewed interest in setting the display variable etc i thought i would post my contribution this perl script is my solution it trys to be intelligent about what it s doing so that you should be able to type rx host domain etc and get a xterm running on host domain etc with all the difficult stuff taken care of in theory this program can do everything you ever wanted to do when you wanted to run a remote command in the background it doesn t even need to be an x program try a rx big machine make for instance for a backgrounded make on the remote big machine for more details and a full list of features read the readme file about lines below all comments welcome duncan bin sh this is a shell archive remove anything before this line then unpack it by saving it into a file and typing sh file to overwrite existing files type sh file c you can also feed this as standard input via unshar or by typing sh file e g if this archive is complete you will see the following message at the end end of archive of contents readme imakefile manifest makefile rx man rx pl wrapped by sinclair dcs gla ac uk on thu apr path bin usr bin usr ucb export path if test f readme a c then echo shar will not clobber existing file readme else echo shar extracting readme characters sed s x readme end of file x x glasgow rx remote execution of x programs version x xcopyright duncan sinclair sinclair dcs gla ac uk x xtrivial to install but there s an imakefile to make it even more trivial x xthe perl script needs some customisation before it is installed just xedit the rx pl file and read the comments once you ve done xthis you can xmkmf then make install install man x xfeatures x x does the right thing for off site remote execution including x setting up display to include domain names and passing x magic cookies or doing the xhost stuff x x allow different remote user name rx l user host x x smart quoting of arguments makes passing wild cards easy x x custom command execution link it to remacs to get a remote x emacs command x x automatic xterm options names the xterm according to hostname x and turns on login shell x x default command is xterm x x propagates x ish env variables to remote session user may x extend the list of variables to pass x x special handling for bourne shell users x x tries to do remote execution from same directory as local x that is it propagates pwd in an intelligent manner x x logs errors in a file x x overall intelligence tm makes reasoned decisions about what x you are trying to do and tries to do the right thing x x written in perl for portability and hackability x xfor more info read the man page or the source x end of file if test ne wc c readme then echo shar readme unpacked with wrong size fi end of readme fi if test f imakefile a c then echo shar will not clobber existing file imakefile else echo shar extracting imakefile characters sed s x imakefile end of file x glasgow rx imakefile x x programs rx x xall programs x xinstall safe x xinstallnamedprog rx pl rx bindir xinstallmanpage rx mandir x xinstall x rm bindir rxterm x ln bindir rx bindir rxterm x xsafe x grep s debug rx pl false x xshar safe x makekit m p x perl pi e s sinclair dcs gla ac uk sinclair dcs gla ac uk part x end of file if test ne wc c imakefile then echo shar imakefile unpacked with wrong size fi end of imakefile fi if test f manifest a c then echo shar will not clobber existing file manifest else echo shar extracting manifest characters sed s x manifest end of file x file name archive description x x readme read me first x imakefile x manifest this shipping list x makefile x rx man x rx pl end of file if test ne wc c manifest then echo shar manifest unpacked with wrong size fi end of manifest fi if test f makefile a c then echo shar will not clobber existing file makefile else echo shar extracting makefile characters sed s x makefile end of file x makefile generated by imake do not edit x xconsortium imake c v rws exp x x the cpp used on this machine replaces all newlines and multiple tabs and x spaces in a macro expansion with a single space imake tries to compensate x for this but is not always successful x x x x makefile generated from imake tmpl and tmp iif a x xconsortium imake tmpl v rws exp x x platform specific parameters may be set in the appropriate vendor cf x configuration files site specific parameters should be set in the file x site def full rebuilds are recommended if any parameters are changed x x if your c preprocessor does not define any unique symbols you will need x to set bootstrapcflags when rebuilding imake usually when doing x make world the first time x x x x site specific configuration parameters that need to come before x the platform specific parameters edit site def to change x x site xconsortium site def v rws exp x x x platform specific configuration parameters edit sun cf to change x x platform xconsortium sun cf v rws exp x x operating system sunos x x xconsortium sunlib rules v rws exp x x x site specific configuration parameters that go after x the platform specific parameters edit site def to change x x site xconsortium site def v rws exp x x shell bin sh x x top x current dir x x ar ar cq x bootstrapcflags x cc gcc fpcc struct return x as as x x compress compress x cpp lib cpp std cpp defines x preprocesscmd gcc fpcc struct return e std cpp defines x install install x ld ld x lint lint x lintlibflag c x lintopts axz x ln ln s x make make x mv mv x cp cp x x ranlib ranlib x ranlibinstflags x x rm rm f x troff psroff x msmacros ms x tbl tbl x eqn eqn x std includes x std cpp defines x std defines x extra load flags x extra libraries x tags ctags x x sharedcodedef dsharedcode x shlibdef dsunshlib x x proto defines x x instpgmflags x x instbinflags m x instuidflags m x instlibflags m x instincflags m x instmanflags m x instdatflags m x instkmemflags g kmem m x x projectroot usr x x x top includes i incroot x x cdebugflags o x ccoptions x x allincludes includes extra includes top includes std includes x alldefines allincludes std defines extra defines proto defines defines x cflags cdebugflags ccoptions alldefines x lintflags lintopts dlint alldefines x x ldlibs sys libraries extra libraries x x ldoptions cdebugflags ccoptions local ldflags l usrlibdir x x ldcombineflags x r x dependflags x x macrofile sun cf x rm cmd rm ckp ln bak bak o core errs a emacs tags tags make log makeout x x imake defines x x irulesrc configdir x imake cmd imake duseinstalled i irulesrc imake defines x x iconfigfiles irulesrc imake tmpl irulesrc imake rules x irulesrc project tmpl irulesrc site def x irulesrc macrofile extra iconfigfiles x x x x window system build parameters x xconsortium project tmpl v rws exp x x x x window system make variables this need to be coordinated with rules x x pathsep x usrlibdir usr x lib x bindir usr x local bin x incroot usr x include x buildincroot top x buildincdir buildincroot x x buildinctop x incdir incroot x x admdir usr adm x libdir usrlibdir x x configdir libdir config x lintlibdir usrlibdir lint x x fontdir libdir fonts x xinitdir libdir xinit x xdmdir libdir xdm x twmdir libdir twm x manpath usr x man x mansourcepath manpath man x mansuffix n x libmansuffix x mandir mansourcepath mansuffix x libmandir mansourcepath libmansuffix x nlsdir libdir nls x pexapidir libdir pex x xapploaddir libdir app defaults x fontcflags t x x instappflags instdatflags x x imake imake x depend makedepend x rgb rgb x x fontc bdftopcf x x mkfontdir mkfontdir x mkdirhier bin sh bindir mkdirhier x x configsrc top config x docutilsrc top doc util x clientsrc top clients x demosrc top demos x libsrc top lib x fontsrc top fonts x includesrc top x x serversrc top server x utilsrc top util x scriptsrc utilsrc scripts x examplesrc top examples x contribsrc top contrib x docsrc top doc x rgbsrc top rgb x dependsrc utilsrc makedepend x imakesrc configsrc x xauthsrc libsrc xau x xlibsrc libsrc x x xmusrc libsrc xmu x toolkitsrc libsrc xt x awidgetsrc libsrc xaw x oldxlibsrc libsrc oldx x xdmcplibsrc libsrc xdmcp x bdftosnfsrc fontsrc bdftosnf x bdftosnfsrc fontsrc clients bdftosnf x bdftopcfsrc fontsrc clients bdftopcf x mkfontdirsrc fontsrc clients mkfontdir x fslibsrc fontsrc lib fs x fontserversrc fontsrc server x extensionsrc top extensions x xilibsrc extensionsrc lib xinput x pexlibsrc extensionsrc lib pexlib x phigslibsrc extensionsrc lib pex x x xconsortium sunlib tmpl v rws exp x xshlibldflags assert pure text xpicflags fpic x x depextensionlib x extensionlib lxext x x depxlib depextensionlib x xlib extensionlib lx x x depxmulib usrlibdir libxmu sa soxmurev x xmulibonly lxmu x xmulib lxmu x x depoldxlib x oldxlib loldx x x depxtoollib usrlibdir libxt sa soxtrev x xtoollib lxt x x depxawlib usrlibdir libxaw sa soxawrev x xawlib lxaw x x depxilib x xilib lxi x x deppexlib x pexlib lpex x x soxlibrev x soxtrev x soxawrev x sooldxrev x soxmurev x soxextrev x soxinputrev x sopexrev x x depxauthlib usrlibdir libxau a x xauthlib lxau x depxdmcplib usrlibdir libxdmcp a x xdmcplib lxdmcp x x depphigslib usrlibdir libphigs a x phigslib lphigs x x depxbsdlib usrlibdir libxbsd a x xbsdlib lxbsd x x lintextensionlib lintlibdir llib lxext ln x lintxlib lintlibdir llib lx ln x lintxmu lintlibdir llib lxmu ln x lintxtool lintlibdir llib lxt ln x lintxaw lintlibdir llib lxaw ln x lintxi lintlibdir llib lxi ln x lintpex lintlibdir llib lpex ln x lintphigs lintlibdir llib lphigs ln x x deplibs depxawlib depxmulib depxtoollib depxlib x x deplibs deplibs x deplibs deplibs x deplibs deplibs x x x imake rules for building libraries programs scripts and data files x rules xconsortium imake rules v rws exp x x x start of imakefile x x glasgow rx imakefile x x programs rx x xall programs x xinstall safe x xinstall rx pl x if d destdir bindir then set x x else set x mkdirhier destdir bindir fi x install c instbinflags rx pl destdir bindir rx x xinstall man rx man x if d destdir mandir then set x x else set x mkdirhier destdir mandir fi x install c instmanflags rx man destdir mandir rx mansuffix x xinstall x rm bindir rxterm x ln bindir rx bindir rxterm x xsafe x grep s debug rx pl false x xshar safe x makekit m p x perl pi e s sinclair dcs gla ac uk sinclair dcs gla ac uk part x x x common rules for all makefiles do not edit x xemptyrule x xclean x rm cmd x xmakefile x if f makefile then set x x rm makefile bak mv makefile makefile bak x else exit fi x imake cmd dtopdir top dcurdir current dir x xtags x tags w ch x tags xw ch tags x xsaber x load alldefines srcs x xosaber x load alldefines objs x x x empty rules for directories that do not have subdirs do not edit x xinstall x echo install in current dir done x xinstall man x echo install man in current dir done x xmakefiles x xincludes x x x dependencies generated by makedepend x end of file if test ne wc c makefile then echo shar makefile unpacked with wrong size fi end of makefile fi if test f rx man a c then echo shar will not clobber existing file rx man else echo shar extracting rx man characters sed s x rx man end of file x th rx march x version x sh name xrx rxterm r remote command xterm anything execution x sh synopsis x b rx x x b l x i username x x i host x x i command x x br x b rxterm x x b l x i username x x i host x x ir args x x sh description xthe x b rx xprogram connect to the specified x i host xand executes the specified x i command xin the background returning immediately to allow the execution xof x programs it copies a number of environmental variables to xthe remote session if you omit x ir command xthen rx will start an xterm on the remote host the x b rxterm xvarient starts a remote xterm on a host and also passes x i args xto the remote xterm as arguments x pp xshell metacharacters which are not quoted are interpreted on the local xmachine while quoted metacharacters are interpreted on the remote xmachine x pp xif the name of the file from which x b rx xis executed is anything other than rx x b rx xtakes this name stripped on a leading r as the command xto run on the remote host using any x i command xparameters as arguments for the remote command x pp xif x b rx xthinks you are using x b xauth xbased x authorisation and you are calling to a off site host or xto a different username it will attempt to copy an authorization xkey to the remote account otherwise it will try to use x b xhost xto grant access to the remote host x sh options x tp x bi l username xuse x i username xas the remote username instead of your local username in the absence xof this option the remote username is the same as your local username x x sh environment xif set the values of path display xenvironment xapplresdir xxfilesearchpath xuserfilesearchpath openwinhome ld library path xand xauthority are exported to the remote program unless the xremote username is different or the remote host is off site in which xcase only display is exported with in all cases any variables named in the xvariable rxenv x pp xthe display variable is tweaked as appropriate to contain as qualified xa hostname as is needed x sh diagnostics x tp x ib command don t recognise my name x b rx xcannot decode the name it has been called under in this case xit prints a warning message and continues as normal x tp x b rx usage rx l username hostname args xthis means it could not decode the arguments given to it x sh author xduncan sinclair sinclair dcs glasgow ac uk july x br xoriginally based on a program with the same name from the x b gwm xdistribution to distinguish this rx from other programs xwith similar names you should refer to this program as the x b glasgow x br rx x sh see also xx rsh xterm xauth xhost gwm x sh bugs x b rx xmakes a number of assumptions about the relationship between the xlocal user and the remote one depending on whether the remote xhost is onsite or not and whether an alternative username was used xor not x pp xin particular if either the locally used shell or the remotely xused shell is the standard bourne shell x b sh xthen strange things are more likely to happen especially when xit s only one of them x pp xsometimes quoting can get messed up x pp xit s too easy to fool the smarts in x b rx xto make it believe something that is not true and fail because of it x pp xwhen x b rx xuses x b xhost xto grant access the x b xhost xcommand may fail silently x pp xif x b rx xtries to send to large a command to the remote machine it will xlikely fail with a parse error from csh if this happens you xwill probably have to reduce the size of the exported environment end of file if test ne wc c rx man then echo shar rx man unpacked with wrong size fi end of rx man fi if test f rx pl a c then echo shar will not clobber existing file rx pl else echo shar extracting rx pl characters sed s x rx pl end of file x usr local bin perl x config change the line above to point to your copy of perl x x glasgow rx version x x copyright duncan sinclair sinclair dcs gla ac uk x x last modified early april x x distribution limited as per the usual mit copyright x x remote execution of x programs based on a script in an old version of gwm x x to install put rx in your bin and make rxterm a link to it x some configuration will be necessary see config comments x x more and more this is less and less like the original x x major hacked to work for our my set up and also partly x re written to work with sh rather than ksh x x maybe i ll turn this into our first zsh script x x looks like it turned into a perl script at some point big improvement x x this code tries to be intelligent in the way it works this means there x are tons of implicit assumptions about the environment it is run in x these assumptions are all valid on the machines i use and in my x environment at the same time i try to make as few assumptions as possible x about the remote machine here s a list of all the more tricky ones x that the remote machine has csh linux x that rshell bin k sh remote shell bin k sh make same x if remote shell sh that path is compatible use csh etc x i pass a cookie to the remote machine if need be but does it x know what to do with a cookie eat it x there must be others x x why am i using csh to run the remote commands simply because it doesn t x interact badly with rsh and hang waiting for a file descriptor to x be closed i d rather use zsh or bash or even perl but they are not x as universal as csh x x xrequire stat pl x x what we called x x argv x argv s x x config x change these variables to be your domain name and a pattern that x will match all variations on your domain name you must include x those leading dots if your hostname includes your domain see x the code further down marked xxx x x dom dcs gla ac uk x dompat dcs gla sgow ac uk x x config x change this to your value of bindir or set the variable to if x you think your users are smarter than that x x xpaths usr x bin x x config x make this the name of your remote shell command x x rsh rsh x x end of config x x some variables we ll no doubt use sometime x x usage argv usage argv l username hostname args n x rshell getpwuid bin sh x home env home getpwuid x xauth env xauthority home xauthority x logf rx log x stuff x debug x x before anything else close stdin this might stop rx hanging x due to rsh weirdness x xclose stdin x x do a l flag x xif argv eq l x shift x user argv die usage x luser l user x shift x x x pick a host any host x x mach argv die usage xshift x x things to think about for the remote machine x x mach s dompat x offsite mach x x where am i seems we can t trust the dumb user to set hostname right x x hostname env hostname hostname current host x hostname hostname current host x hostname s n x x if all your hostnames include your domain comment out the next line x xif offsite hostname hostname dom xxx x x now we know where we are and they are are they different x x diff hostname ne mach x x what is the display going to be x danger heavy regular expressions follow x this needs to be re written to be modular and can so be extended to x support resetting host to unix as required x x display env display x display s dompat x display s unix d d hostname if diff x display s d d dom if offsite x env display display x x here comes the hard bit in sh quote our args x also have to quote quotes to cope with csh braindamage x quotes are quoted thus x so for an arg foo bar we get foo bar x xforeach argv x s g x s x x x so what we doing x xprog x if argv eq rx last prog x if argv eq rxterm x unshift argv ls if diff x unshift argv xterm ls n mach x last prog x x if argv r unshift argv last prog x warn argv don t recognise my name x x x if nothing else become an rxterm x xif argv x unshift argv ls if diff x unshift argv xterm ls n mach x x x some special considerations if we are not ourselves on the other side x xif offsite user x x we want to pass a cookie here x x if e xauth x x this is going to be unsecure as the cookie will appear in a number x of command line args but at least it ll work x this will need enhanced if we ever fix the code above to x set display to when we return to the server x x cookie path path xpaths xauth list display x chop cookie x cooks split cookie x shift cooks x unshift stuff xauth add display cooks if cooks x else x x yuk what a crock i hate doing this x x system xhost mach dev null dev null if diff x x x we really only want to pass a value for display x x vars display split env rxenv x else x x some variables we wish to export x x vars x display x xenvironment x xfilesearchpath x xuserfilesearchpath x xapplresdir x openwinhome x ld library path x manpath for rxman and bourne shell users x xauthority x split env rxenv x x x braindead bourne shell needs to be given a path x we would rather not pass the current path because it might not work x on the destination machine i d rather it was set by the user s x remote shell during the rsh x fortunately all my x programs are in an arch independant place and x so it shouldn t cos a problem locally x we check against rshell because they might be running another shell x differant from their login shell i know sounds weird but it s too x common round here x i ve also included ksh in the brain damage cos i can t see an easy way x to pass throught env env without it being too late we only have x one person who has ksh as a login shell anyway x oh yeah we are assuming that if it s bourne shell here then it s x bourne shell there much more important than this is that it it isnt x bourne shell here it better not be bourne shell there x x if rshell m k sh push vars path x x x validate pwd routine x xsub validate pwd x local pwdstats dotstats x local pwd x x unless defined pwd return undef x unless dotstats stat return undef x unless pwdstats stat pwd return undef x if pwdstats st dev dotstats st dev x pwdstats st ino dotstats st ino return undef x pwd x x x try and find a nice valid pwd x xpresent x if pwd env pwd x foopwd pwd x foopwd s tmp mnt export x pwd validate pwd foopwd validate pwd pwd x x unless pwd x chop pwd pwd x foopwd pwd x foopwd s tmp mnt export x pwd validate pwd foopwd validate pwd pwd home x x x pwd s x x try to find somewhere nice to live on the other side x xunless offsite x unshift stuff test d pwd cd pwd x x x start building the full command x xforeach var vars x val env var x unshift stuff setenv var val x x x some commands to do on the other side x xunshift stuff set nonomatch only if we are using csh x x build the remote command x x remote umask join stuff argv dev null logf x remote s g x remote remote x x build the arg list for the exec x x comm rsh luser mach csh fc remote x x do it x xif debug x print comm n x else x exec comm x x x rsh doesn t return any indication of how it went over x on the other side but that s ok cos we aint going to x wait around to see what happened x xexit x x the end end of file if test ne wc c rx pl then echo shar rx pl unpacked with wrong size fi chmod x rx pl end of rx pl fi echo shar end of archive of cp dev null ark isdone missing for i in do if test f ark i isdone then missing missing i fi done if test missing then echo you have the archive rm f ark isdone else echo you still need to unpack the following archives echo missing fi end of shell archive exit duncan sinclair sinclair dcs gla ac uk sinclair uk ac gla dcs would the real unix operating system please stand up
comp.windows.x	subscribe me please subscribe me e mail rpicas porto inescn pt
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped in article apr comp lancs ac uk julian comp lancs ac uk julian g self writes wasn t the shareware fee a suggestion by john it s a request to personal users it s a requirement for commercial government and institutional users someone else asked whether the authors of the jpeg and tiff software had given permission to incorporate their code into a commercial product i found the following in jpeg readme we specifically permit and encourage the use of this software as the basis of commercial products provided that all warranty or liability claims are assumed by the product vendor and the following in tiff copyright permission to use copy modify distribute and sell this software and its documentation for any purpose is hereby granted without fee looks like he s ok on that account barry margolin system manager thinking machines corp barmar think com uunet harvard think barmar
comp.windows.x	buying x terminals we are planning on buying x terminals i have the article from jim morton regarding prices etc and am looking for any other information that will help me decide which to buy the terminals will be connected to a dec axp with mb ram running osf from what i have found out so far it would be best to run as much as possible in the terminal itself x window manager xterm etc and that in order to do this we need n mb ram in the xterminal where n ranges from to depending on who i talk to what should i be looking for what sort of questions should i be asking the salespeople thanks trevor j smedley smedley tuns ca school of computer science technical university of nova scotia
comp.windows.x	multiple not simultaneous server connections hi we have a requirement for dynamically closing and opening different display servers within an x application in a manner such that at any time there is only one display associated with the client assumming a proper cleanup is done during the transition should we anticipate any problems kartik kartik hls com
comp.windows.x	re xmtextfield truncation with lang bug in article lttm linnrli news bbn com swalker bbn com susan walker writes i have found a situation which i think is a bug in x or motif but i m hoping is really just a mistake on my part does anyone know anything about this problem i am using an xmtextfield and setting its xmnvalue to a hardcoded text string ascii or kanji either via xtsetvalues or xmtextsetstring the problem is that when the xmtextfield is displayed the text is getting truncated depending on the setting of the environment variables lang more specifically lc all when they are set to japanese the text gets truncated when they are set to english everything works fine i am taking the default for xmncolumns please note that hardcoding of text is not done in my actual application just in my sample code to make things easier i am running motif x r via hpux my test program is set up to handle bit kanji characters i have remembered to do xtsetlanguageproc prior to my mrminitialize and my font resources are set to japanese fonts don t know if this matters but my dialog box and textfield is initially created with uil the problem does not happen with xmtext unfortunately substituting xmtextfields with xmtexts in my application is not an acceptable alternative way too much code to be modified while in beta i have a small test program which illustrates the problem if anyone wants it my best guess is that either the x code or motif is not properly allocating memory for japanese but since i don t have the source to look at it is just a guess the problem was that textfield was improperly walking the string it used the character count instead of the byte count a significan oops the problem has been fixed and the patch is included in the latest periodic patch from hp support services tom mcfarland tommc cv hp com
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped the copyright notices themselves seem to be making conficting restrictions i do not know how to reconcile copyright notice copyright by john bradley permission to use copy and distribute xv in its entirety for non commercial purposes is hereby granted without fee provided that this license information and copyright notice appear in all copies with xv is shareware for personal use only you may use xv for your own amusement and if you find it nifty useful generally cool or of some value to you your non deductable donation would be greatly appreciated is the suggested donation though of course larger donations are quite welcome folks who donate or more can receive a real nice bound copy of the xv manual for no extra charge commercial government and institutional users must register their copies of xv for the exceedingly reasonable price of just per workstation x terminal site licenses are available for those who wish to run xv on a large number of machines contact the author for more details it strikes me that the first part gives you the right to use without fee the program for noncommercial purposes if the info appears in all copies this seems to cover educational institutions despite what the rest of the notice says and the first part doesn t say subject to the conditions outlined below chris christopher robin thewalt thewalt ce berkeley edu dept of civil engineering these opinions are not necessarily university of california berkeley shared by my employer
comp.windows.x	xio fatal io error problem posted for a friend without posting access but with e mail access help anyone i have a x client that is abnormally terminated with the following message xio fatal io error invalid argument on x server xxxxx after requests known processed with events remaining it has been known to occur when displaying on the xsun x r server it occurs with a higher frequency when the client displays on the xdomain x r server running on domainos on an apollo anybody know why this may be happening any suggestions would be greatly appreciated reply to has been set to me i ll summarize to the net doug leary redars software development boeing computer services dcl luey ca boeing com tim gentry boeing computer services gentry bcstec ca boeing com this posting in no way officially represents the opinions of boeing boeing computer services or possibly even the poster for that matter
comp.windows.x	image data format question i am posting this for a friend please respond to vaughn sonatech hub ucsb edu i m working on an application where we are creating a dither pattern and rendering it in a window by applying it to the stipple pattern of the gc the following code segment almost works if the window width is an even multiple of if it is not an even multiple it skews the pattern towards the right another problem whether it is an even multiple of or not is a series of vertical lines spaced pixels apart extern display dpy extern window xid extern gc gc extern int max x max y set in resize handler dither pixels char pixels dither pattern data char bm bitmap data char bmp long i arraymax arraymax max x max y bm char malloc arraymax bmp bm for i j i arraymax i if pixels i dither bit bmp j pixel on else bmp j pixel off if j bmp j stipple xcreatebitmapfromdata dpy xid bm max x max y free bm xclearwindow dpy xid xsetstipple dpy gc stipple xsetfillstyle dpy gc fillstippled xfillrectangle dpy xid gc max x max y xsetfillstyle dpy gc fillsolid i suspect the answer is to pad the data mike vaughn sonatech
comp.windows.x	re keyboard mapping and window placement questions if i use xt all o reilly has to say is is automatically handled by xt if i use xlib ala xnextevent i get nothing this all stems from problems with users of the sun keyboard and the numlock plus various alt meta etc modifier requirements that s not all it says the coverage of modifiers is in chapter of volume four or chap in older athena editions where there is about pages on how to specify translations to capture various combinations of keys or buttons the xlib route uses xlookupstring and there is a lot of coverage of how that works in volume one chapter you should read this to understand how all the mappings work before trying to do anything complicated adrian nye o reilly and associates
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped julian g self julian comp lancs ac uk wrote wasn t the shareware fee a suggestion by john is so then it s up to the individual to make the choice whether or not to honour it and part with money personally if i was in his position i would do exactly the same thing john has obviously put in lot of time and effort into xv and why shouldn t he receive some money for it just my pennies worth keep up the good work john yeah i agree i am very impressed by the kind of effort that has gone into the lastest release some people are just looking for excuses to gripe i personally feel that the work is worth much more that after seeing the kind of things people get paid for d
comp.windows.x	gui tools we are making a transition from nextstep to x windows i am trying to find the best gui tool for our needs i have looked at several tools but they all seem basically the same each salesman will beg to differ i realize that there are differences but i don t have an infinate amount of time to discover what they are the tools i have looked at so far are uim x x designer tele use tcl tk interviews and suit so far i ve drawn the following conclusions the builder for interviews is not very mature bad docs tele use is very expensive and uses a proprietary toolkit uim x x designer seem about the same even though x designer does not have a interpreter i ll by centerline if i need one tcl tk is a little buggy i know very little about the ics builder just have the sales info due to a corporate agreement x designer is much cheeper than any other comercial product for the time i m spending i could have bought all of them well different money we will have to live with any shortcomings and make it work this type of tool seems great but noone seems to talk about them on the net is there another news group for this suit cost too much for comercial development i m hoping someone out there has a strong opinion on at least one of these products thanks bruce trvalik aoa check your mind at the door the band that time forgot moose aoa utc com aoa moose bbn com
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped alas we too will have to stop using it brian brian glendenning national radio astronomy observatory bglenden nrao edu charlottesville va
comp.windows.x	re r table widget causing trouble with xtquerygeometry i just got a bug report and a fix for this exact problem from fisher iscp bellcore com greg fisher the most serious problem i have identified has not been incorporated this problem occurs when the table widget s geometrymanager is invoked by a child this will work correctly if the table widgets parent complies with the xt protocols however if they do not as is the case for some motif widgets and they ignore xtcwqueryonly then the sizing will be incorrect in order to see this problem the following events must happen a child of the table widget must request a new size the table widget must query its parent for a new size having set xtcwqueryonly the parent must ignore the xtcwqueryonly bit and resize the table widget as part of the resize xmptableforgetproposedlayout is called this will set tw table current cols and tw table current rows to zero the table will continue setting up the new size working under the assumption that it is working with a proposed and not actual layout at the end it will call xmptablesaveproposedlayout this will save tw table cols and tw table rows and restore their values from tw table current cols and tw table current rows however these have already been set to zero since the table widget has already been resized it will not need a second resize next another widget managed by some ancestor of the table is resized this results in the parent of the table requesting the tables preferred size since tw table cols and tw table rows are zero this will return x as the preferred size the parent is very likely to grant this request resulting in a loss of the whole table from the display he isolated the problem a proposed a workaround which seems precisely correct here is the new implementation of xmptablenewproposedlayout which will be released with the next update in weeks xmp table c void xmptablenewproposedlayout tw xmptablewidget tw xmptableconsidersamesize tw xmptableproposedcolsandrows tw xmptablequeryparentforresize tw query only no resize since we only made a query we should still need to continue however motif is broken so that we actually may already have been resized in that case the proposed layout is already forgotten so we should just quietly exit if tw table resize status rsduetorequest xmptablemakecolsfitquerywidth tw xmptablemakerowsfitqueryheight tw xmptablegetproposedchildsize tw xmptablesaveproposedlayout tw else the resize has already been done our proposed layout would have been forgotten in the process the xptable the fix is identical except of course for the names xp table c void xptablenewproposedlayout tw xptablewidget tw xptableconsidersamesize tw xptableproposedcolsandrows tw xptablequeryparentforresize tw query only no resize since we only made a query we should still need to continue however some manager widgets are broken so that we actually may already have been resized in that case the proposed layout is already forgotten so we should just quietly exit if tw table resize status rsduetorequest xptablemakecolsfitquerywidth tw xptablemakerowsfitqueryheight tw xptablegetproposedchildsize tw xptablesaveproposedlayout tw else the resize has already been done our proposed layout would have been forgotten in the process david smyth david jpl devvax jpl nasa gov senior software engineer do not use v mail yet cccp x and object guru office c jet propulsion lab m s oak grove drive pasadena ca that sun windows thingy what s it called you know its really awful x motif that s it motif yuck
comp.windows.x	re overriding default wm behaviour just create the window in the place you want it and set the program position field in the wm normal hints property then map it then assuming they have a non brain dead window manager the user can say whether they want to us program specified positions or not for tvtwm the usepposition command in the tvtwmrc will do this now i m sure that by the time this message gets out of our local news timewarp someone will have advised you to set the user position bit in the wm normal hints do not do this it s evil it s a disservice to your users offler the tusked crocodile god will come in the night and remove your vital organs with a blunt spoon if you even contemplate it rjc cogsci ed ac uk o
comp.windows.x	xdm and env vars hi i am using xdm on x r with ow and xview on sun s and sparcs running sunos prior to using xdm i used to set path and other environment variables like manpath helppath arch etc in my login file with xdm the login file doesn t get executed and therefore neither the olwm root window nor my applications know about these variables i used the displaymanager userpath resource in usr lib x xdm xdm config to succesfully pass the path variable but i am having problems passing anything else i tried execing home login in usr lib x xdm xsession but that didn t help i also tried using displaymanager exportlist helppath manpath arch which didn t work either i would appreciate any help on this matter thanks in advance shash shash chatterjee email fwr bv fin af mil ec software phone lockheed fort worth company fax p o box mz ft worth tx
comp.windows.x	action translation table implementation hello our application requires us to capture keypad presses for all windows in a number of applications we are trying to use action translation tables to implement this we have only succeeded by assigning the translation table to every individual widget in all windows in a single application the xt calls we make are included below it would be much more convenient if we could assign the translation table to a class of widgets rather than individual widget instantiations and also accomplish it for multiple applications if someone could describe how do this it would be greatly appreciated platform sun sparc w x r motif static xtactionsrec actionstable up do up right do right middle do middle left do left down do down bye quit static char defaulttranslations key kp up n key kp right n key kp middle n key kp left n key kp down n key kp bye xttranslations trans table trans table xtaddactions actionstable xtnumber actionstable trans table xtparsetranslationtable defaulttranslations widget xtcreatemanagedwidget msg xmpushbuttonwidgetclass form wargs n xtoverridetranslations widget trans table
comp.windows.x	re desqview x on a pc and network traffic in article rkloc k picasso cssc syd tansu com au gpatapis boyd tansu com au writes in article qdeck com support qdeck com technical support writes in article qtk rn picasso cssc syd tansu com au gpatapis boyd tansu com au writes what sort of traffic is generated with the x calls i am curious to find out the required bandwidth that a link must have if one machine running dv x is supporting multiple users clients and we require adequate response time anyone have any ideas i expect the limiting factor will be your server machine not the network itself to give you a real world example here at quarterdeck we have roughly people using dvx to talk to a bunch of unix boxes novell file servers and each other it s not too much of a load on our ethernet with maybe concentrators so you have people on each segment if you had a badly loaded net or the apps you wanted to run were very network intensive you could run into some slowdowns but the biggest problem would be the machine itself say you have a with plenty of ram and a fast hard disk and network card if you have people running programs off it you re going to see some slowdowns because you re now on effectively a mhz of course dvx will attempt to see if tasks are idle and make sure they give up their time slice but if you have working programs running you ll know it well i can buy a bigger and more powerful server machine because of the significant drop in price year after year the link i want to use though isdn k is costly and the bandwidth limited that s why my interest lies in seeing if such a link can be used and see what traffic goes through it since i don t think tom always gets time to read this group i ll take the liberty of responding to some of this if you really want tom to reply you should send mail to support qdeck com a k line is certainly going to restrict you far more than the mbps ethernet that we typically run how restrictive it will be depends on what you run and how you run it i would think that a couple of instances of some really nasty program like smoking clover would make the link useless for anyone else on the other hand probably xclocks quietly updating every seconds or so wouldn t impact it too much in the real world you will be somewhere in between these two extremes going by the way i personally use x on a daily basis i wouldn t want to have to share that k link with more than other people having said that if you can tweak the programs being run by adding in calls to give up time slices when idle and that sort of thing you could probably run people on a given machine before you started seeing slowdowns again this time from network bandwidth hmmm has anyone at your centre monitored the traffic at all are you running any standard ms windows programs like word what sort of packets go blazing through what size link do you have mb or mb what is the average traffic flow going through your network or do you have few high peaks and then many low points our corporate wan is as unique as any other the usage patterns are not very good predictors of how yours will behave the only one of our low bandwidth links that normally get used in this way is a k link to ireland that they often use to run a dos text based client end of a client server database remotely from the dvx machine behind me since the server end is or was always at this end california it is faster to remotely run the client via desqview x and have a short hop to the server than running the client locally and having a long hop to the server as i warned you this tells us very little about how you usage pattern will fill a k isdn link running word for windows remotely is going to itself be very usage dependent let s break it into pieces and look at it tracking the mouse pointer is easy and efficient to translate from windows calls into x popping up a menu is a little more involved and will generate some traffic restoring the screen that was covered by that menu may be easy and may not be does the server that it s displaying on have backing store if so and the server had enough memory the display can be updated locally and will generate little network traffic if no backing store then what was being covered up if it was a solid colored rectangle of space we can tell your xserver to draw that quite easily if it was a full color backdrop of ren stimpy we may have to send it back to the x server bit by bit dvx will do its level best to only redraw that small area but in some unusual cases the entire screen may need to be repainted assuning a x screen with bits per pixel that s bits that has to be sent worst possible case you re looking at about seconds in reality it would never be this bad since the screen will always have parts that will be tranlatable into higher level x calls it all really depends on what the programs are doing ie you re going to see a slowdown from x bandwidth a lot sooner if your apps are all doing network things also what do you mean by network things i vision using ms windows and other windows applications over the network were the processes are running on the server and all i am getting are the displays i am wondering how good is the x and subsequently dv x protocol in transferring these images with x calls and displaying them on a client s machine x was designed from the ground up to be efficient across a network it s pretty good for this x programs are best dos text programs are almost as good since we conert them to x easily something like winx is a hybrid we intercept the calls windows makes to it s graphics driver mouse driver keyboard driver and convert them to x the calls windows is making are in no way designed to be efficient on a packet switched network we go to a lot of trouble to convert them to the highes level xlib calls we can but we are somewhat limited because we only know what windows and its applications tell us quarterdeck office systems gary rich problem resolution dept anonymous ftp site qdeck com for write to pricing ordering info info qdeck com technical questions support qdeck com quarterdeck bbs
comp.windows.x	re wanted diagram drawing program in article roouu gdj tuegate tue nl lennart blade stack urc tue nl lennart benschop writes i am looking for a program to draw various kinds of diagrams on my linux system it must be free it must run on standard monochrome x with a small screen size x no motif openlook etc it must compile under linux with gcc g most generic unix software works ok it must produce postscript files that i can include into latex documents with dvips or just tell me another free program that converts one of the supported formats to ps it must produce drawings that are larger than the window size scrollable i know of several such programs idraw xfig tgif i have no experience with any of them features i would like in the programs are ability to draw circles arcs straight lines boxes and arrows support for both dashed and solid line styles for all of these objects support for texts in any size ability to move copy resize rotate any part of the drawing ability to turn any part of the drawing into a library component e g a transistor symbol composed of three lines an arrow and a circle any aid numeric coordinates screen grid to align parts of the drawing less essential but in fact very handy preservation of connection if i move one part of the drawing the lines that connect that part to the rest of the drawing stay connected ideally i want the tool so general and flexible that it is comfortable to draw electronic schematics flow charts logic diagrams data flow diagrams and block diagrams with it i just want to know which of the programs offer which of the features on my whishlist and are there any other programs how demanding are the programs with respect to disk space memory and cpu usage are any of the programs known to work on linux with monochrome x in the list you mentioned tgif handles everything except rotation and any size text it only supports degrees rotation currently it supports x r standard font sizes however it allows arbitrary scaling of the entire drawing effectively it allows any font sizes but you can only have different sizes per drawing tgif takes up k compiled with o option on a sparcstation i was told that it compiles under linux but i haven t tried it yet it works with both color and monochrome x bill cheng ucla computer science department c boelter hall los angeles california usa william cs ucla edu uunet ucbvax cs ucla edu william
comp.windows.x	xdm xkernel and olwm greetings we have a network of sun workstations running sunos and openwindows of these are sun s that we have modified to run seth robertson s xkernel image effectively turning them into xterminals we use xdm x r to manage the displays when we had xkernel machines things worked fine but when we installed more last weekend we appear to have found a weakness with clients to sparc the sparc window manager is eventually getting munged let me try to be precise the user sitting at the machine that does all the actual processing for these xterminals is having control of his keyboard and screen yanked away when this was the department chair it was kind of cute we poked at xdm for a few days and are satisfied that it is not at fault our current theory is that olwm the sun version was not meant for running multiple copies on one machine which is what happens the console user runs olwm and every xterminal logged in has olwm running on the xterminal server has anyone had any prior experience with this sort of behavior can anyone shoot obvious holes in this theory how about obvious gimmes and of course any ideas on how to solve it any ideas are greatly appreciated greg owen gowen forte cs tufts edu gowen jade tufts edu systems programmer and ta tufts university computer science dept personal info gcs go d p c m m s g w w x email for explanation if interested
comp.windows.x	re summary virtual mouse in ol v wm in article cas org lwv cas org larry w virden writes in article frolv awvi iv s andrew cmu edu derrick j brashear db andrew cmu edu writes i got the following today from gary risebrough and it worked fine excerpts from mail apr re ol v wm virtual keybo ito aodc gov au i have openwindows keyboardcommands full openwindows virtualgrabkeys false which seems to work where can i find man pages about virtualgrabkeys resource it doesn t show up in my openwindows man pages virtualgrabkeys is not an ow resource it belongs to olvwm mats larsson email mats larsson eua ericsson se ellemtel telecom systems labs phone s alvsjo sweden fax
comp.windows.x	malloc problem how do you solve the problem when the message cannot perform malloc shows for xtcreatemanagedwidget call i have the application written in x r running on decstation using athena widgets as soon as i added codes to do remote procedure call the program refused to work i also have my program working using just xlib calls with rpc my executable code is about m and i don t have any idea how much memory is the decstation any help will be appreciated thanks man l li manli cs uh edu dept of computer science univ of houston houston tx
comp.windows.x	xdm configuration hello we want to configure our x r sytem i mhz running bsd like unix comming up with a chooser menu with different machines on it works an then connect to them but the only connection works is localhost an x indirect machine works very well the configuration starting the xdm at boot time with no servers specified in xservers starting the x server at boot time with x indirect localhost the chooser menu appears with the machines named in xacces bye chooser machine machine broadcast the number of users on this machines and the load is displayed correct selecting an other machine than my own host the x server starts and nothing happens after a time out the chooser menu appears again i know the xdm bug in x r but all machines running x r please help lars lars koeller e mail uphya odie uni bielefeld de universitaet bielefeld germany uphya dave hrz uni bielefeld de fakultaet fuer physik d phone universitaetsstr fax bielefeld telex
comp.windows.x	efficient pc clients we re looking at various x clients for pc s and we re looking for some information about the relative efficiency of different products are any notably efficient fast are any notably inefficient i assume that a graphics accelerator makes them significantly faster right now i m looking at ico running on xoftware for windows sitting on the distinct tcp ip platform and it s not surprisingly much slower than ico running on the sparc s console what are the key ways of improving performance for pc presumably windows clients also what about async solutions yes i appreciate that it will be much slower even with v bis i m in the process of installing ppp with header compression how does that compare to cslip i ve seen a product called xremote by ncd that promises to be pretty efficient but are there comparable products out there if we re looking for efficiency for async pc clients what should we be looking at in addition to standard ppp w compression and xremote any information would be greatly appreciated i m still taking in all the information in the faq but any tips about the relative efficiency of various product offerings would be great i get the impression that discussions about speed are largely application specific but that not withstanding any comments would be appreciated thanks rob rob ryan system constructs inc rryan panix com
comp.windows.x	x design choice for color handling question most graphics systems i have seen have drawing routines that also specify a color for drawing like drawpoint x y color or drawline x y x y color or fillrectangle x y x y color with x i have to do something like xsetforeground current color xdrawpoint d w x y why split this into two functions why did x designers decide to not associate the color with the object being drawn and instead associate it with the display it is being drawn on joseph sirosh
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped in article apr comp lancs ac uk julian comp lancs ac uk julian g self writes wasn t the shareware fee a suggestion by john is so then it s up to the individual to make the choice whether or not to honour it and part with money personally if i was in his position i would do exactly the same thing john has obviously put in lot of time and effort into xv and why shouldn t he receive some money for it just my pennies worth keep up the good work john the fee is a suggestion for an individual but licensing is mandatory for commercial government and institutional users i wonder how many users of xv own the system that it runs on michael salmon include standard disclaimer include witty saying include fancy pseudo graphics ericsson telecom ab stockholm
comp.windows.x	encapsulated postscript and x how do i view eps files on x i have an image in color encapsulated postscript and need to view it on my screen are there any utilities that will let me convert between encapsulated postscript and plain postscript joseph sirosh
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped in sophia inria fr muller mafalda inria fr christophe muller writes it is interesting to look at the change s of mind that john has had very interested indeed this is against this kind of changes that the gnu copyleft is protecting us anyway at simulog we will abandon xv we were using it mostly for slide shows because of its loop feature that display does not have display from the wonderful imagemagick package d but i think i will implement it myself even a shell script should do the job and forget xv cheers christophe muller simulog fr are you the police no ma am we re musicians just use xloadimage instead or xli ronald van loon in theory there is no difference rvloon cv ruu nl between theory and practice dcv group utrecht the netherlands in practice however there is
comp.windows.x	re x server scanline padding question figured it out the answer lies in mit server ddx mfb mfbcustom h brian
comp.windows.x	re xdm and env vars in article aa haji haji sun fwr bv fin af mil writes i am using xdm on x r with ow and xview on sun s and sparcs running sunos prior to using xdm i used to set path and other environment variables like manpath helppath arch etc in my login file with xdm the login file doesn t get executed and therefore neither the olwm root window nor my applications know about these variables one usual suggestion is to put everything into your every time shell rc file instead of your login only one which is fair enough if you only have a few users who know what they re doing if you have several hundred users who do what the books tell them though then it s confusing at best another is to have your xterms run login shells but that still leaves the window manager and the things that get started from its menus with the wrong environment our alternative is that instead of having xdm run the client startup scripts it runs the user s favourite shell as a login shell and has it then run the rest of the startup scripts that way the user s usual environment gets set up as normal and inherited by everything you can find an almost current copy of our scripts and things in contrib edinburgh environment tar z available from the usual places george d m ross department of computer science university of edinburgh kings buildings mayfield road edinburgh scotland eh jz mail gdmr dcs ed ac uk voice fax
comp.windows.x	xvertext version released now available xvertext another day another xvertext release summary xvertext provides you with several functions to draw strings at any angle in an x window previous versions were limited to vertical text what s new since o existing bitmap fonts can be magnified to give reasonable fonts at large sizes o bounding boxes can be obtained o the gc s stipple bitmap is honoured o font ids can be cached when font names are unavailable o an imakefile is present o the demos are better including a ransom note like the comp sources postscript one where can i get it comp sources x soon export lcs mit edu contrib xvertext shar z now alan richardson you don t have to be school of maths physical sciences old to be wise univ of sussex brighton bn qh england judas priest uk mppa uk ac sussex syma elsewhere mppa syma sussex ac uk
comp.windows.x	help badmatch making bit win on bit server i m trying to make a bit window using xcreatewindow on a bit pseudocolor server as far as i know this should be possible if you server supports a truecolor or directcolor visual i m using a sun ipc with a rasterflex card running xdpyinfo gives screen dimensions x pixels x millimeters resolution x dots per inch depths root window id x depth of root window planes number of colormaps minimum maximum default colormap x number of visuals default visual id x visual visual id x class pseudocolor depth planes size of colormap entries red green blue masks x x x significant bits in color specification bits visual visual id x a class truecolor depth planes size of colormap entries red green blue masks xff xff xff significant bits in color specification bits visual visual id x b class directcolor depth planes size of colormap entries red green blue masks xff xff xff significant bits in color specification bits my code looks like this if xio dspptr xopendisplay null null logexit cannot connect to x server s xdisplayname null xio scr defaultscreen xio dspptr use this screen if xmatchvisualinfo xio dspptr xio scr directcolor xtern colorinfo memset setwinattrib sizeof xsetwindowattributes xio gswin xcreatewindow xio dspptr rootwindow xio dspptr xio scr x y w h inputoutput xtern colorinfo setwinattrib this results in a badmatch error can anyone please tell me why henrik winther nielsen ccccccc ii basic development cc cccc cci europe mail hwn cci dk cc cc ii oester parkvej phone cc cccc ii dk hoejbjerg ccccccc ii denmark e u r o p e
comp.windows.x	re x design choice for color handling question in article lu oftinnnfk cascais cs utexas edu sirosh cs utexas edu joseph sirosh writes why did x designers decide to not associate the color with the object being drawn and instead associate it with the display it is being drawn on in x the drawing attributes were bundled into drawing requests that is the server s drawing model was stateless this caused problems with performance and network traffic so the x redesign included the graphic context to codify the drawing state most application designers who want to draw things in several different colors create a gc for each color during initialization then pass the gc id in each drawing request for more information see scheifler and gettys s article in the acm transactions on graphics
comp.windows.x	x perfcomp visualization hi is there any script program thelike already existing which could transform the output of x perfcomp a huge table into a nice d ish diagram or graph by producing postscript output from x perfcomp input maybe someone has already written such beast o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped in article apr cv ruu nl rvloon cv ruu nl ronald van loon writes in sophia inria fr muller mafalda inria fr christophe muller writes it is interesting to look at the change s of mind that john has had very interested indeed this is against this kind of changes that the gnu copyleft is protecting us anyway at simulog we will abandon xv we were using it mostly for slide shows because of its loop feature that display does not have display from the wonderful imagemagick package d but i think i will implement it myself even a shell script should do the job and forget xv we too will have to stop using it shame really it was rather nice still i have no objection to the owner claiming money for legit work he s put in we ll just go back to the older versions of xv simon
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped will there be no chance to get the author of this really superb program to remove the institutional point in his license statement or at least to say except educational ones at this i understand that use of this software by either commercial or governmental users should be result in a donation to its creator but the everytime rare on money universities schools or whatever else institutions should not be restricted if the situation stays as is and the author explicitely states that he treats universities and schools as institutions in this context i ll have to fallback to xv here maybe our disk capacity will soon be dead when every user has a copy of xv in his home dir o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	re encapsulated postscript and x how do i view eps files on x i have an image in color encapsulated postscript and need to view it on my screen several ways are available pageview which i think came with our system so i can t point ghostview with ghostscript and the new xv package all do so i recommend the latter two especially xv if you want to do any conversion are there any utilities that will let me convert between encapsulated postscript and plain postscript i m not sure offhand but i will attempt to mail you the comp lang postscript faq which has a list of utilities greg owen gowen forte cs tufts edu gowen jade tufts edu systems programmer and ta tufts university computer science dept personal info gcs go d p c m m s g w w x email for explanation if interested
comp.windows.x	encyclopedia directory of widgets is there such a document either in the bookstores or possible on an ftp site somewhere nothing really fancy just something that gives a listing of the available widgets and the resources that are pertinant to them and what flavors of motif they occur in andrew e page warrior poet decision and effort the archer and arrow mac consultant the difference between what we are macintosh and dsp technology and what we want to be
comp.windows.x	chars of big fonts are shown partially hi all i wrote a small application which uses pixmaps copied into a window to show some drawings this works perfectly for all kind of objects expect large fonts what happens on the screen is that the right half of the font is not shown the way i create these things is quite simple some aggregated code xfillrectangle disp pixs anycolor width height xdraw line rect string xcopyarea disp pixs win width height i am using a rs k with bos the question is is this a bug in the aix x server may be some ptfs or did i do something wrong within my code sorry for the cross posting but i really do not know what kind of error it is juergen schietke research insitute for discrete mathematics university of bonn nassestr bonn germany tel e mail schietke or uni bonn de
comp.windows.x	extension to damaged chars of big fonts sorry about the garbage code the following is used of course xsetforeground disp pixgc backgroundcolor xfillrectangle disp pixs pixgc scr width scr height xsetforeground disp pixgc foregroundcolor xdraw line string rectangle disp pixs pixgc xcopyarea disp pixs win pixgc win width win height juergen schietke research insitute for discrete mathematics university of bonn nassestr bonn tel e mail schietke or uni bonn de
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped in article bglenden apr colobus cv nrao edu bglenden colobus cv nrao edu brian glendenning writes alas we too will have to stop using it brian brian glendenning national radio astronomy observatory bglenden nrao edu charlottesville va it says in the licence that non profit organisations have the rights to copy use distribute etc does that not cover nrao i sure hope it covers us please someone let me know if i have to buy a licence best regards ata mail dr ata etemadi blackett laboratory space and atmospheric physics group imperial college of science technology and medicine prince consort road london sw bz england internet arpanet earn bitnet atae spva ph ic ac uk or ata c mssl ucl ac uk span spva atae or msslc atae uucp usenet atae spva ph ic nsfnet relay ac uk
comp.windows.x	need patches to use dev cgtwelve the good news is we just got two sparc s the bad news is that dev cgtwelve is apparently not supported in x r or x r does anyone know of a patch and how i can obtain it to either x version that will enable us to use x on our sparc s adthanksvance gina
comp.windows.x	re summary virtual mouse in ol v wm regarding re summary virtual mouse in ol v wm euamol eua ericsson se mats larsson adds virtualgrabkeys is not an ow resource it belongs to olvwm not only that the olvwm version man page says it s called grabvirtualkeys boolean this resource controls whether the keys below marked as involving grabs will be active or not if this resource is set to false then none of the bindings marked below with an asterisk will ever be active default value true
comp.windows.x	geometry option greetings i need some help with the detail of geometry specification i have a program that uses xlib to create a simple window i tried to hard code the x y location in xcreatewindow but it didn t work i also tried xsetstandardproperties xsetwmhints with no luck could somebody enlighten me on this subject hans hans dulimarta dulimart cps msu edu pattern recognition image processing laboratory department of computer science michigan state university
comp.windows.x	re x design choice for color handling question in article lu oftinnnfk cascais cs utexas edu sirosh cs utexas edu joseph sirosh writes most graphics systems i have seen have drawing routines that also specify a color for drawing like drawpoint x y color or drawline x y x y color or fillrectangle x y x y color with x i have to do something like xsetforeground current color xdrawpoint d w x y why split this into two functions why did x designers decide to not associate the color with the object being drawn and instead associate it with the display it is being drawn on for flexibility anyway what you say is not really true the color information is associated with a graphicscontext not with a display and the gc is a parameter to the drawing routines so if you need to fast switch between green dotted lines and blue ones of width you can make gcs for those cases and then simply do xdrawline dpy win gc red x y x y xdrawline dpy win gc blue x y x y for this effect this is eventually more complicated to do for the programmer but also much more efficient and flexible you would not include all the other parameters like line pattern with cap and joinstyle drawmode and so on in every drawing call so why do it for color btw stay away from xdrawpoint if you don t really need it to draw random points for image transfers there are image routines o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	re encapsulated postscript and x eps is plain postscript it is only wrapped by some comments and stripped of any dubious commands for compatibility you can simply do save gsave showpage def include eps file here grestore restore showpage end of file and this way show it on it s natural page position and size programs may use the boundingbox comment in the eps file to do arbitrary scale rotate and translate to include it in more complicated ways than above o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	how can i get a window to draw in i have the task to program a x application for the first time and have some severe difficulties creating a window in which i can draw something unfortunately some basic books on the topic of x application programming are not available to me for the moment i am running a hp with hpux vue and x r using xt anbd xaw what i did until now i initialized the x intrinsics cxreating a top level widget with xtappinitialize i passed as a application class name commandwidgetclass then i set the argument values for window height and width using xtsetarg and passed it to the toplevel widget with xtsetvalues when i call xtrealizewidget i get a window of the specified size but i have no idea how i can draw something in it can anybody send me some help and perhaps some basic information how to use the widgets in which situation it is useful to use them and in which not thanks very much in advance soenke soenke voss faculty of economics soenke wiwi uni bielefeld de university of bielefeld germany
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped in article bglenden apr colobus cv nrao edu bglenden colobus cv nrao edu brian glendenning writes alas we too will have to stop using it brian we where following version of xv and i have been very surprise to discover that the new version is a shareware what a pitty what i found on the inthernet was the freeware i make myself a freeware and i spent long time on it but i don t plain to make paid to use it i think if evrybody spent some time to make freeware evrybody will be paid by the use of other freeware here we will stay with xv and drop xv s meunier e mail meunier inf enst fr
comp.windows.x	re encyclopedia directory of widgets the only directory i know of that lists commercial and non commercial widgets is the ics widget data book ics sells the widgets for various prices there are also some public domain widgets in the delivery the ics widget databook is a subscription kind of thing where you pay some nominal fee get a cd with the widgets and then you can use the public domain widgets freely and selectively activate widgets which you want to purchase the right to use from them the nice thing about this is that you can purchase whole sets of widgets such as those used in dataviews i dont know there pricing schemes but it is often better to buy than to redevelop the more complex widgets especially if you only one customer to distribute to this is the extent that i know about them except that i got their databook catalog and it looked impressive lots o widgets there i dont work for ics or have any widgets being sold by them hope this helps you brian dealy it not knowing where it s at dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that s important it s knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where it s not at b dylan brian dealy it not knowing where it s at dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that s important it s knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where it s not at b dylan
comp.windows.x	compiling mh and xmh on sco i m trying to get mh compiled and then xmh and i m having some problems i ve got mh using gcc on sco my mh file is listed below does anyone have any suggestions on what i can add to get it to compile bin usr local bin debug off etc usr local lib mh mail usr mail mailgroup mail mandir usr man manuals gen chown bin chown editor prompter remove bin mv f if no tcp ip sendmail is available change mts entry to sendmail mts sendmail smtp bboards off bbdelivery off bbhome usr spool bboards mf off pop off options see below cc gcc ccoptions o ansi d stdc dsysv dsysv dsco d svid curses lcurses ldoptions s ldoptlibs lex lex sprintf int sharedlib off slibdir usr local lib oldload off ranlib off define bind only of the bsd named tcp ip is used define sockets only if the system has bsd sockets tcp ip options atz bind dumb mhe mhrc more usr bin more options overhead shadow sockets sys sys dir options tzname whatnow jesse w asher varco pruden buildings poplar ave suite memphis tn internet jessea vpbuild vp com uucp vpbuild jessea
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped commercial government and institutional users must register their copies of xv for the exceedingly reasonable price of just per workstation x terminal site licenses are available for those who wish to run xv on a large number of machines contact the author for more details i would have appreciated an announcement of the policy change dartmouth will not be able to run xv and i m probably going to have to take v off line i somehow missed the shareware designation in the readme of v and didn t realize that we were supposed to register i also debate whether this with the new institutions must pay policy belongs in the contrib directory on export to me contrib means contributed i e no strings except copyright attached pat wilson systems manager project northstar paw northstar dartmouth edu
comp.windows.x	multiple heads on sparc i have a sparc with cgsix cards in it i d like to have the r server recognize the second card i mknod created a dev cgsix device but when i brought up the server the second device was ignored how do i setup the second card note if i borrow a cgthree card and put a cgthree and a cgsix card in the same sparc box the r server finds the second card i then set the display to the second card and start a second window manager worse case is i trade cards with someone but maybe someone out there has seen this problem already email is preferred post if you must thanks in advance jim jim brandt hughes lan systems hughes network systems south winchester blvd suite san jose ca email jbrandt hns com email jbrandt hls com voice fax vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
comp.windows.x	re xdm configuration in article c adru jpf hermes hrz uni bielefeld de uphya odie uni bielefeld de lars koeller d writes hello we want to configure our x r sytem i mhz running bsd like unix comming up with a chooser menu with different machines on it works an then connect to them but the only connection works is localhost an x indirect machine works very well the configuration starting the xdm at boot time with no servers specified in xservers starting the x server at boot time with x indirect localhost more deleted you need to start the x server with indirect its name if you start it with indirect localhost it use the loopback adress as it s adress so when it try to contact another host this one try to answer on its loopback adress not good remember that every machine has the adress on the loopback network pierre verpeaux dmt semt lams
comp.windows.x	re encyclopedia directory of widgets i forot to mention the free widget foundation which maintains a freely available set of widgets info on this group can be gotten from free widgets request kazoo cs uiuc edu this list is maintained by volunteers and you may subscribe to a mailing list which discusses various aspects of using and abusing these widgets brian brian dealy it not knowing where it s at dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that s important it s knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where it s not at b dylan
comp.windows.x	need x win popup menu package rather than write my own can anyone direct me to a package that will let me create cascaded popup menus in x windows for reasons of portability the package should not rely on any x toolkit other than xlib and the xt intrinsics something written in c would be nice too thanks
comp.windows.x	re cannot create plane window summary i got several answers the most complete was from errol crary errolc tv tv tek com i have just looked at the r server listings mit server dix window c and there are several ways in which you can get a badmatch error even though my o reilly book only says borderwidth is nonzero for inputonly as of the third edition june the o reilly book vol under xcreatewindow says badmatch any invalid setting of a window attribute attribute besides win gravity event mask do not propogate mask override redirect or cursor specified for inputonly window depth non zero for inputonly parent of inputoutput is inputonly border width is non zero for inputonly depth or visual invalid for screen width or height is adrian nye o reilly and associates
comp.windows.x	re looking for drawing packages in article greg greg software mitel com gregory lehman writes path wrdis gatech howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu utnut torn nott uotcsi geovision software mitel com greg from greg software mitel com gregory lehman newsgroups comp windows x comp windows x motif subject looking for drawing packages message id greg date apr gmt organization mitel kanata ontario canada lines xref wrdis comp windows x comp windows x motif greetings i am developing an application that allows a user to interactively create edit view a visual model i e topology of their network and i was wondering if anyone knew of any builder tools that exist to simplify this task in the past i have used visual edge s uim x product to develop other guis so i am familiar with uimss in general the topology will support objects and connecting links once the topology is created i want to provide the user with capabilities to support grouping zooming etc i am looking for some form of a higher abstraction other than x drawing routines to accomplish this specifically the zooming and grouping aspects may prove difficult and certainly time consuming if i have to roll my own suggestions greg greg software mitel com you don t mention your platform but digital has a custom widget neted which does exactly what you want to do cost is nominal or so call your local office the widget is supported on a variety of platforms and i heard rumblings of porting to sun etc so it may be worth the check charlie gilley digital equipment corp
comp.windows.x	porting athena widgets to xview i checked the faq on this first and no luck i need to convert the r tree widget for use with xview v the problem is the fact that xview uses their own event loop system and i was wondering if anyone had any tips or converted source on converting these pups thanks sean wipeout cmu edu
comp.windows.x	xarchie icon problems hi i ve just installed the new xarchie and it all works fine except on our grayscale xterm the custom icons compiled into the program don t work at all but on the bw terminal it works fine i can set the icon to an xbm file with twmrc but that doesn t give the neat o change when busy action other programs with similar actions e g xmail xbiff work fine the x interface author george ferguson suggests it might be a problem with the x intrinsics but isn t willing to hack around to fix it himself but i know zero about x programming so i don t think i can find it does anyone out there know an obvious fix for the problem andrew andrew jaffe ajaffe oddjob uchicago edu dep t of astronomy and astrophysics u chicago s ellis ave chicago il fax
comp.windows.x	re xdm and env vars in article aa haji haji sun fwr bv fin af mil writes i am using xdm on x r with ow and xview on sun s and sparcs running sunos prior to using xdm i used to set path and other environment variables like manpath helppath arch etc in my login file with xdm the login file doesn t get executed and therefore neither the olwm root window nor my applications know about these variables you should try having a xsession script in home to do these things xdm will start up your process using the system version usually usr lib x xdm xsession which should check whether you have your won and change to that if you do take a copy of the system one and edit it note that this file requires x access to be set gordon lack the contents of this message may reflect my personal opinion they are not intended to reflect those of my employer or anyone else
comp.windows.x	re compiling mh and xmh on sco jesse w asher jessea u me vp com wrote i m trying to get mh compiled and then xmh and i m having some problems i ve got mh using gcc on sco my mh file is listed below does anyone have any suggestions on what i can add to get it to compile bin usr local bin cc gcc ccoptions o ansi d stdc dsysv dsysv dsco d svid i think the traditional option to gcc would help personally i used traditional o funroll loops to compile it on sun hope this helps gonzalo gperez dcc uchile cl
comp.windows.x	how to make your own x face in x c easy steps will someone who can see the x face included in this header please reply and tell me if it turned out okay i m not all too sure about my viewing software i hand converted this thing in vi from a sun rasterfile what a pain for folks who haven t the slightest it went like this how to make your own x face in x f easy steps scan my drivers license into a pcx file use wingif to trim my face out of the license reduce it by half and convert it to bmp use paintbrush to touch up manually use wingif to reduce it by half again use paintbrush to touch up again use wingif to reduce it by half again and convert it to gif now over to the unix side use snapshot to convert the gif to a sun rasterfile use iconedit to touch it up and convert it to an x bitmap use vi yes a text editor to manually convert the rasterfile into the uncompressed x face format lots of global ed commands and by the time you re done you ll mirror hex bytewise in your sleep now over to the linux side a use compface to convert it to what you see here a m dob bo e eeqgbn qy en as u k g hiby x pd szf vvxcxsn mw g nvhe w x j s r zs o hfu lwzygh b try viewing it by whatever means you have available c go back to step but do it right this time rick miller rick ee uwm edu ricxjo discus mil wi us ricxjo muelisto send a postcard get one back enposxtigu bildkarton kaj vi ricevos alion rick miller woods muskego wis usa
comp.windows.x	axe is available i have placed a new release of my axe editor in axe tar z on export lcs mit edu and arjuna ncl ac uk the significant change this time and the justification for the hike in the major version number is o undo has been implemented by default only the last change can be undone but a resource is provided to allow the user to specify how many including unlimited levels of undo information should be kept also undo of undo is supported there is no truth in the rumour that the next version will be emaxe for those who have not encountered axe before here is a summary of what it is all about axe is a simple to use text editor for x that represents a significant improvement over xedit also built around the athena text widget it features amongst other things o multiple windows o multiple buffers o default menu interface o optional button interface with choice and layout of buttons under user control o minibuffer for expert use and access to external filters o provision for defining a keyboard macro o geometry specification and resizing in terms of characters o file selection via a browser o knowledge of line numbers o parenthesis matching o regular expression searching o restricted or unlimited undo o ability to change font o easy entry of control codes o xterm like keymap feature o easy runtime setting of selected preferences resources o both brief and comprehensive on line help o server mode with cooperating client programs o optional extension language using tcl o optional xaw d widget set compatability o collection of reusable widgets that embody the functionality of axe i have personally built and run core axe i e without the tcl and xaw d options on the following systems sun sparc sunos x mit x r sun sparc sunos mit x r encore multimax umax mit x r dec ultrix mit x r hp hp ux mit x r mac iici au x mit x r but not all have been subject to the same level of testing i have only tested the tcl and xaw d options on the first a number of ifdef sysv isms that have been fed back to me have been incorporated into the code and a possible scandir replacement is provided for those systems that do not have one although axe will probably build under r run time problems have been encountered in the past i have not bothered to try this version under r and have not put any effort into solving previously known problems therefore if you are at r you very much take pot luck if it doesn t work the only alternative is to try the last release of version which should still be around it doesn t have as many features and uses the widget creation library wcl not only that it requires an old version of wcl or version of axe was nearing completion when version of wcl came out so axe never got converted to make use of it axe is available by anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu and arjuna ncl ac uk initially and probably in due course from several other ftp sites check your nearest using xarchie if you can t ftp try sending email to ftpmail decwrl dec com with the word help alone in your message body you will receive instructions on how to ftp via email jim j k wight newcastle ac uk department of computing science university of newcastle tel newcastle upon tyne ne ru united kingdom fax
comp.windows.x	pixmap standard our group is interested in using a pixmap format for multi colored icons buttons etc that is easily converted to and from other format from resource files using pbmplus we can easily move to from xpm to our other environments of ms windows and os pm we were wondering if xpm or some other format is under consideration to be used as a standard by the x consortium for r as we would prefer to use whatever will be best supported by x along the same subject line is the reason the standard x pixmap is not used because it doesn t have an associated colormap and other attributes or is it more involved just wondering why there aren t editors for pixmaps out there for the original format email replies preferred thanks in advance john sigler texas instruments email sigler hp itg ti com standard disclaimers go here
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comp.windows.x	xcutsel or xcb question i want to do something like this date xcb s xcutsel to get the output of the date command put into the xprimary selection unfortunately xcutsel is an interactive little bugger and there isn t a command argument to tell it to just do it and not put up its little window so is there some other command that i can use like this or is there an analog to xcb that will put stuff in xprimary instead of cut buffer david schlotzhauer phone sas institute inc e mail schlotz unx sas com
comp.windows.x	help with xcleararea hi could some please tell me the errors of my ways i am trying to update a drawable this drawable happens to be a pixmap on a button the problem is that after i do the xcleararea xtdisplay m usr xtwindow m usr true this appears to work i then do sprintf tmp str r d fun xdrawstring xtdisplay m usr bmaps my gc tmp str strlen tmp str the problem is that the new info is drawn but the old info is still there even if i pass xcleararea a false and see it clear when it redraws the new info the old info is still there help please thanks randy paries rtparies turq b ingr com x cr intergraph huntsville alabama
comp.windows.x	x windows extensions for perl using the usersub stuff in perl you can incorporate things like curses for use in perl i was wondering if anyone had done this with x preferably motif and if so where i could get the source for it jesse w asher varco pruden buildings poplar ave suite memphis tn internet jessea vpbuild vp com uucp vpbuild jessea
comp.windows.x	re compiling mh and xmh on sco in article apr vpbuild vp com jessea u me vp com jesse w asher writes i m trying to get mh compiled and then xmh and i m having some problems i ve got mh using gcc on sco my mh file is listed below does anyone have any suggestions on what i can add to get it to compile here s the one that i used id mh v sources exp sco v bin usr local bin bboards on etc usr local lib mh mail usr spool mail mailgroup mail ldoptlibs lsocket lcrypt i mandir usr man cc gcc ccoptions traditional manuals none chown bin chown mts sendmail smtp pop on debug off sharedlib off signal void sprintf int options attvibug bind dpop dumb rename sockets sys sys dir vsprintf fcntl mhe mhrc mime more usr bin more popservice pop rpaths foldprot msgprot sbackup shadow curses lcurses ltermcap ranlib off you may want to use a different locking style my mailbox is mounted over nfs so i use fcntl style locking i also applied the following tweak to sbr makedir c src public mh sbr makedir c tue dec sbr makedir c tue apr include sys types h include sys stat h endif sys dir if defined svr defined ncr include unistd h endif include sys types h include sys stat h endif sys dir if defined svr defined ncr defined sys define maxpathlen include unistd h endif that took care of everything but the man pages which i installed by hand good luck steve steve alexander lachman technology inc stevea lachman com x fax sun ico laidbak stevea
comp.windows.x	desqview x over tcp ip how reliable how is it implemented three q s is it reliable how does it send the information from a ms windows app over the x protocol does it just draw everything as graphics into one window or does it use multiple windows and essentially work more cleverly if i want to run ms word for example remotely do i have to run a separate copy of ms windows remotely and then start ms word from that or can ms word be started remotely on its own thanks a lot ethan
comp.windows.x	none we are adding a motif wrapper to a family of data display programs these programs are each written as a main loop with these steps use semop to check a semaphore and if true access new data otherwise block new data comes quite often use msgop to check for messages and if true read them otherwise continue messages are user commands and not often update the display according to latest data and messages we typically have several of these running in windows plus a data producer serving some device and setting the flag everyone blocking makes sure the device server gets to run xt and xm also have a main loop model that we must fit into o reilly vol iv ch discusses adding a file watcher and also how to add workprocs that are run during idle time we can open up our existing main loop and call it as a workproc the problem is our blocking until new data is no longer appropriate neither is letting the program free run because others are hurt the unix select call lets you block until any of several i o are ready we want that for the x main loop except not file i o any suggestions or examples most welcome we run sgi personal iris and indigo systems morris hirsch aka morris sg nusc navy mil or
comp.windows.x	prereq public patch in the r file fix there is the line that reads as the subject line here i don t see a file fix when i got a few hmmm lines putting on fix it made me wonder if i has missed am i off the mark thank you ray stell stellr smyrna cc vt edu they call stephen the first martyr hadn t lazarus the rawer deal c s lewis
comp.windows.x	re preventing user from hitting ctrl alt bksp to exit x hi hello i am admin for an rs running aix x r motif and xdt i want to prevent the user from hitting cntl alt bkspc to exit x try dontzap in usr lib x xconfig cu styx free software association of germany great software should be free software phone data
comp.windows.x	scrollbar in xterm is it possible to get an xterm scrollbar to come out on the right side instead of the left ron shenk shonkwiler r w georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp allegra amd hplabs seismo ut ngp gatech prism ma rs arpa ma rs prism gatech edu
comp.windows.x	using xterm to display output hello i am writing a program which forks of a number of child processes and each of the children printing things on the screen quite messy in one window the xterm sxxd option seems to be the solution to opening up slave windows only to display output and i use the following code to open up a pty taken from stevens and manage to open up an x term successfully the problem however is how do i write into this x term please help static char pty name int pty master void int pty master void int i fd char ptr struct stat statbuff static char ptychar pqrs static char hexdigit abcdef for ptr ptychar ptr ptr strcpy pty name dev ttyxy pty name ptr pty name if stat pty name statbuff break for i i i pty name hexdigit i if fd open pty name o rdwr return fd return vinod email vinod ee wpi edu an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind mohandas karamchand gandhi
comp.windows.x	re keyboard mapping and window placement questions in article apr news mentorg com darcym fpddet mentorg com darcy mccallum writes these are two common subjects so i hope someone has had to deal with these specific questions question deleted i would like to place a popup so that it will be to the immediate right of my main window i want it at the same y coord and their right left sides touching what i need to ask for is the x y coord of the window manager s border for the main window this should ring a bell with anyone who has called xtmovewidget immediately checking the x y after the move and seeing that it is right and in their next callback asking for the x y and seeing that it is now offset by the wm border any help would be most appreciated darcy darcy mccallum mentorg com i have done this before but i m not sure i used the best approach although i tried several methods you have to run up the window heirarchy using xquerytree until you get to the root window now this is not so simple because some window managers slap a window over the root window that is the same size as the root window so be sure to take that into account for further calculations calculate the position and width height offsets for each window using xgetgeometry be sure to take the border width into consideration remember a windows border width is on the outside of a window so the windows x y width height must be adjusted accordingly all of this should give you pretty good numbers for how much space the window manager is using now to place the new window you have to use the same numbers to calculate where you want to place it because the window manager will re parent it on the outside of where you place your window if i remember correctly disclaimer all of this is from memory and i no longer have the code but i did get it working under several window managers correctly feel free to call or e mail for further info mcgary mike d mcgary voice intellection fax lbj freeway suite arpa mcgary intellection com dallas texas uucp intellection com mcgary cs utexas edu
comp.windows.x	x server only on sun i have been using a hds x terminal and really like it what is really powerful is that it can run the x server without running a window manager one can then run a special client x program called a window manager either run motif or openlook from it s own firmware limiting the network traffic but having no home or run motif or openlook from some home place like a sparc or vms this is powerful especially since i can exit one window manager without killing windows and then start up another manager some of my vms tools need special meta mouse combos that work in one manager and not the other well the question is on a sparcstation running openlook does anyone know how to break apart olwm from the olwm slave program basically i want to run only the server and go somewhere else to run the window manager please respond my e mail as well as posting because of the large volumes in window x thanks scott moody there are no answers just cross references scott shuksan boeing com uunet bcstec shuksan scott
comp.windows.x	re desqview x over tcp ip how reliable how is it implemented in article c bflb kem cs columbia edu ethan cs columbia edu ethan solomita writes three q s is it reliable i use it all day every day maintaining our ftp site and answering mail via support qdeck com and i can honestly say that in the last few months i ve never had my machine go down due to any sort of tcpip network manager instability of course i ve crashed my machine quite a few times on purpose during beta testing and that sort of thing but the tcpip portion is quite stable however keep in mind that dvx and the network managers are only going to be as stable as the software they sit on top of so if your underlying network kernel is flakey you can t expect dvx to be terribly stable how does it send the information from a ms windows app over the x protocol does it just draw everything as graphics into one window or does it use multiple windows and essentially work more cleverly it just goes as a window that has graphics drawn into it to vastly over simplify what goes on we just take the windows graphics api calls and translate them directly to x protocol unfortunately windows was not really written to be network aware so sometimes we see a speed penalty when an app does something stupid like sending a big white bitmap to erase something rather than just drawing a white box fortunately that sort of thing is rare if i want to run ms word for example remotely do i have to run a separate copy of ms windows remotely and then start ms word from that or can ms word be started remotely on its own you need to run ms windows which word then runs inside you could run multiple windows programs within the one winx window and windows has ways to automagically start winapps when you start windows so in practice it s not really a major problem i have my system set up so that i can run winx which automatically starts word full screen for windows so i never see any part of windows but word quarterdeck office systems internet support tom bortels pricing ordering info qdeck com tech questions support qdeck com bbs fax compuserve go quarterdeck anonymous ftp qdeck com leave your email address as password
comp.windows.x	re xdm and env vars in article aa haji haji sun fwr bv fin af mil writes hi i am using xdm on x r with ow and xview on sun s and sparcs running sunos prior to using xdm i used to set path and other environment variables like manpath helppath arch etc in my login file with xdm the login file doesn t get executed and therefore neither the olwm root window nor my applications know about these variables i always use the following in my t cshrc f login then source home login endif and in login setenv login so i don t need to set all environment variables in my cshrc but they get set if i login via xdm or xon xrsh rx and so on hope this helps bernward bernward averwald heinrichstr d dortmund voice fax e mail bernward moepi do open de b rcc de i think i need a lear jet
comp.windows.x	help building xview on sparc classic can anyone help with this system sparc classic solaris gcc x r when i try to build the xview libraries xview patched with the patch from the x r solaris kit i get the following error rm f ndet loop o shared ndet loop o gcc fpcc struct return e o i build include i usr x r include dsvr dsysv dfuncproto dos has locale dos has mmap ndet loop c xstr l libxview xstr c gcc fpcc struct return fpic o i build include i usr x r include dsvr dsysv dfuncproto dos has locale dos has mmap c x c o shared ndet loop o in file included from build include xview notify h from build include xview private ntfy h from x c usr include sys ucontext h parse error before sigset t usr include sys ucontext h warning no semicolon at end of struct or union usr include sys ucontext h warning data definition has no type or storage class usr include sys ucontext h parse error before usr include sys ucontext h warning data definition has no type or storage class in file included from build include xview private ntfy h from x c build include xview notify h parse error before build include xview notify h warning data definition has no type or storage class in file included from x c usr include sys user h maxsig undeclared outside of functions ndet loop c nsig undeclared outside of functions ndet loop c variable ndet sigvec has initializer but incomplete type ndet loop c parse error before ndet loop c warning data definition has no type or storage class ndet loop c in function ndet fig sig change ndet loop c nsig undeclared first use this function ndet loop c each undeclared identifier is reported only once ndet loop c for each function it appears in ndet loop c in function ndet signal catcher ndet loop c parse error before ucontext t ndet loop c sigset t undeclared first use this function ndet loop c parse error before newmask ndet loop c newmask undeclared first use this function ndet loop c oldmask undeclared first use this function ndet loop c parse error before ndet loop c warning assignment makes pointer from integer without a cast ndet loop c parse error before ndet loop c in function ndet send delayed sigs ndet loop c sigset t undeclared first use this function ndet loop c parse error before newmask ndet loop c newmask undeclared first use this function ndet loop c oldmask undeclared first use this function ndet loop c parse error before ndet loop c at top level ndet loop c parse error before ndet loop c storage size of ndet sigvec isn t known error code make fatal error command failed for target ndet loop o rm f ndet loop o shared ndet loop o gcc fpcc struct return e o i build include i usr x r include dsvr dsysv dfuncproto dos has locale dos has mmap ndet loop c xstr l libxview xstr c gcc fpcc struct return fpic o i build include i usr x r include dsvr dsysv dfuncproto dos has locale dos has mmap c x c o shared ndet loop o in file included from build include xview notify h from build include xview private ntfy h from x c usr include sys ucontext h parse error before sigset t usr include sys ucontext h warning no semicolon at end of struct or union usr include sys ucontext h warning data definition has no type or storage class usr include sys ucontext h parse error before usr include sys ucontext h warning data definition has no type or storage class in file included from build include xview private ntfy h from x c build include xview notify h parse error before build include xview notify h warning data definition has no type or storage class in file included from x c usr include sys user h maxsig undeclared outside of functions ndet loop c nsig undeclared outside of functions ndet loop c variable ndet sigvec has initializer but incomplete type ndet loop c parse error before ndet loop c warning data definition has no type or storage class ndet loop c in function ndet fig sig change ndet loop c nsig undeclared first use this function ndet loop c each undeclared identifier is reported only once ndet loop c for each function it appears in ndet loop c in function ndet signal catcher ndet loop c parse error before ucontext t ndet loop c sigset t undeclared first use this function ndet loop c parse error before newmask ndet loop c newmask undeclared first use this function ndet loop c oldmask undeclared first use this function ndet loop c parse error before ndet loop c warning assignment makes pointer from integer without a cast ndet loop c parse error before ndet loop c in function ndet send delayed sigs ndet loop c sigset t undeclared first use this function ndet loop c parse error before newmask ndet loop c newmask undeclared first use this function ndet loop c oldmask undeclared first use this function ndet loop c parse error before ndet loop c at top level ndet loop c parse error before ndet loop c storage size of ndet sigvec isn t known error code make fatal error command failed for target ndet loop o obviously most of this is due to the problem encountered while including sys ucontext h i ve tried several approaches but can t get past this point any help would be greatly appreciated mahalo nui o kakou henry stilmack computing systems manager perform random kindnesses uk netherlands canada joint astronomy centre and senseless acts of beauty n a ohoku place hilo hi hps jach hawaii edu
comp.windows.x	resolution bitmapped fonts device independence i recently corrected the resolution on my sparcstation by changing usr lib x xdm xservers from local usr bin x x ar dpi to local usr bin x x ar dpi i determined that my x monitor was dpi by measuring the active screen area and dividing by resolution however this has caused my application fonts to behave strangely after some research i believe this is caused by my applications requesting fonts by family weight slant and pointsize i believe that x is grabbing the first font on the path with these characteristics and displaying it since i have only dpi and dpi fonts on my path the results are inaccurate i do have some speedo fonts but not for the family i am using helvetica i think this is incorrect the fonts should always be provided in the resolution of the display this never seems to happen unless you explicitly request fonts by xres and yres this is true of both the scaleable and bitmapped fonts for instance the command xfd fn bitstream charter will invoke a dpi font despite the fact that this is a speedo font the command xfd fn adobe courier will invoke a dpi font or a dpi font depending on my font path despite the fact that x knows my display is dpi and that it can generate an dpi font for me unless i my applications specifies a resolution x appears to pick a stupid default is this a bug is it a feature if so why is there anything i can do to get around this problem people have suggested that i lie about my resolution and specify a single font path or not both this would at least make my app consistent but i like being able to look at rulers that appear in my paint application and say yup thats an inch anyone have a set of dpi bitmapped fonts i can use system info sun sparc w mb sunos xdpyinfo version number vendor string mit x consortium vendor release number screen dimensions x pixels x millimeters resolution x dots per inch xset q font path usr lib x fonts misc usr lib x fonts speedo usr lib x fonts dpi usr lib x fonts dpi thanks rbroders oracle com bob brodersen applications architect applications technology group applications division oracle corporation redwood shores ca
comp.windows.x	re help badmatch making bit win on bit server in article apr cci dk hwn cci dk henrik w nielsen writes i m trying to make a bit window using xcreatewindow on a bit pseudocolor server as far as i know this should be possible if you stuff deleted xio gswin xcreatewindow xio dspptr rootwindow xio dspptr xio scr x y w h inputoutput xtern colorinfo setwinattrib this results in a badmatch error can anyone please tell me why the colormap element of setwinattrib must be a legitimate truecolor colormap so use xcreatecolormap with the proper visual and use it in setwinattrib and don t forget the mask and the inevitable caveat i usually use widgets setting the visual and colormap resources rather than direct x routines so i could be wrong but i think this is the general difficulty allen barnett whose wife graciously allowed to use her account
comp.windows.x	the andrew view v no the latest issue of the andrew view newsletter of the andrew consortium is available the simplest way to get it is via ftp from emsworth andrew cmu edu in directory newsletters subdirectories ascii and postscript contain the newsletter in those formats if you have requested it in the past you will receive an email copy you may request to be placed on the mailing list by sending your request to info andrew request andrew cmu edu fred hansen
comp.windows.x	axe is available i have placed a new release of my axe editor in axe tar z on export lcs mit edu and arjuna ncl ac uk the significant change this time and the justification for the hike in the major version number is o undo has been implemented by default only the last change can be undone but a resource is provided to allow the user to specify how many including unlimited levels of undo information should be kept also undo of undo is supported there is no truth in the rumour that the next version will be emaxe for those who have not encountered axe before here is a summary of what it is all about axe is a simple to use text editor for x that represents a significant improvement over xedit also built around the athena text widget it features amongst other things o multiple windows o multiple buffers o default menu interface o optional button interface with choice and layout of buttons under user control o minibuffer for expert use and access to external filters o provision for defining a keyboard macro o geometry specification and resizing in terms of characters o file selection via a browser o knowledge of line numbers o parenthesis matching o regular expression searching o restricted or unlimited undo o ability to change font o easy entry of control codes o xterm like keymap feature o easy runtime setting of selected preferences resources o both brief and comprehensive on line help o server mode with cooperating client programs o optional extension language using tcl o optional xaw d widget set compatability o collection of reusable widgets that embody the functionality of axe i have personally built and run core axe i e without the tcl and xaw d options on the following systems sun sparc sunos x mit x r sun sparc sunos mit x r encore multimax umax mit x r dec ultrix mit x r hp hp ux mit x r mac iici au x mit x r but not all have been subject to the same level of testing i have only tested the tcl and xaw d options on the first a number of ifdef sysv isms that have been fed back to me have been incorporated into the code and a possible scandir replacement is provided for those systems that do not have one although axe will probably build under r run time problems have been encountered in the past i have not bothered to try this version under r and have not put any effort into solving previously known problems therefore if you are at r you very much take pot luck if it doesn t work the only alternative is to try the last release of version which should still be around it doesn t have as many features and uses the widget creation library wcl not only that it requires an old version of wcl or version of axe was nearing completion when version of wcl came out so axe never got converted to make use of it axe is available by anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu and arjuna ncl ac uk initially and probably in due course from several other ftp sites check your nearest using xarchie if you can t ftp try sending email to ftpmail decwrl dec com with the word help alone in your message body you will receive instructions on how to ftp via email jim j k wight newcastle ac uk department of computing science university of newcastle tel newcastle upon tyne ne ru united kingdom fax
comp.windows.x	xw widget set ported to x r i m trying to compile xftp which uses the xw widget set and i m having problems we re using motif and x r and it seems that my version of the xw stuff was only ported to r are there patches out to port this to r or a newer port altogether or perhaps a newer port of xftp for use with r thanks in advance jesse w asher varco pruden buildings poplar ave suite memphis tn internet jessea vpbuild vp com uucp vpbuild jessea
comp.windows.x	hummingbird software query hello i am considering buying the hummingbird x windows software for a ms windows pc mhz ne ethernet board would anyone tell me if they are using this package in a similar environment and if they are happy with it i will be connecting to sun sparcstation running sun os thanks very much jim ennis university of central florida
comp.windows.x	none ubject subscrive please subscribe me e mail min stella skku ac kr
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped in article c c r so cs cmu edu tgl cs cmu edu tom lane writes commercial there s a big difference between a polite request for a voluntary donation and commercial it s illegal to copy this and we ll sic our lawyers on you software there is then why does the documentation say commercial government and institutional users must register their copies of xv for the exceedingly reasonable price of just per workstation x terminal it doesn t sound like a voluntary donation to me dave system administrator penn state population research institute define enotty not a typewriter
comp.windows.x	redirecting stdout stderr of a program hi does anyone know how to redirect the stdout and stderr of a program to a callback function in x the program does not fork a child process so i guess i can t use pipes can anyone help thanks deepak
comp.windows.x	wanted rolling demo creator wanted i have to produce a rolling demonstration of some x window motif software does anybody know if there is some public domain software to record playback x window events or similar thanks in advance paul bamborough bamboroughp logica co uk i must protest captain i am not a merry man worf sttng
comp.windows.x	netvis for xfree chad dougherty tv sucks case western reserve univ i know you re upset right now boy crd po cwru edu so i ll pretend you didn t say that slayer b student cwru edu homer simpson to bart
comp.windows.x	choosing a window manager a while back i e several months someone posted a method for allowing a user to choose via xmenu and something else a window manager interactively at x startup time could the original poster or anyone else please email a copy of the method to me as i have lost the original posting thanks henry stilmack computing systems manager perform random kindnesses uk netherlands canada joint astronomy centre and senseless acts of beauty n a ohoku place hilo hi hps jach hawaii edu
comp.windows.x	vitex rasterflex experience i m going to be purchasing one of these soom for my ss does anyone have any experience with this card positive or negative comments welcome please respond immediately thanks joe joe mcguckin joe islandsw com island software oilean joe sgi com
comp.windows.x	planet x does any one out there have experience with planet x i am considering buying it to use on a sparcstation ipc in this way i can run mac programs from the sparc would you recommend buying this piece of software and what is the emulation on the sparc like does it give a window of a mac or does it give a window of just the individual programs any information would be greatly appreciated thanks dean institute of human genetics i university of minnesota i box umhc i if all you have is a hammer harvard street at east river road i you tend to look at every minneapolis mn i problem as a nail i voice i maslow fax i email dean lenti med umn edu i
comp.windows.x	re animation with xputimage in article apr infodev cam ac uk dcr mail ast cam ac uk derek c richardson writes hi i m new to this group so please bear with me two years ago i wrote a sunview application for fast animation of raster files with sunview becoming rapidly obselete i ve finally decided to rewrite everything from scratch in xview i put together a quick test and i ve found that xputimage is considerably slower factor of on average than the sunview command pw rop which moves image data from memory pixrects to a canvas this was on a sparc ipx it seems that the x protocol communication is slowing things down or xputimage is inefficient or both my question is what is the fastest way in x r to dump plane image data to a window can i take advantage of the fact that the client is running on the same machine as the server or am i stuck with xputimage in which case i might as well give up now all help appreciated thanks derek the fastest way is to use an x server with shared memory extension it uses shared memory if it is a local x server hence images don t have to be duplicated and defaults to the regular image routines if either the shared mem extension is not available or if it s not the localhost sriram
comp.windows.x	xcomm in imakefile files i ve installed many x apps and have that many of them imakefiles that have lines startingwith xcomm in them when i do a xmkmf to create the makefile the makefile also has the xcomm comment lines in them i always have to edit out these lines because the make command barfs on them i was wondering what these lines were for and what i might be doing wrong that causes the make command to dislike them thanks
comp.windows.x	x meta file anyone hi i m working on a project that involves storing an application s rendering to an x display and then playing it back again rather than reinvent the wheel it like to find a file format for saving x protocol software that saves and replays such a session any ideas out there i ve heard that there is a version of xscope that will save and replay sessions i d be willing to share much of the code i develop back to the x community axel axel cv hp com
comp.windows.x	xv author is on vacation till may or so for all those people flaming john bradley the author of xv he s on vacation till may or i don t remember maybe we all should slow down and wait to hear his side wrt copyrights fees etc amir j katz amir matis ingr com or ingr matis amir system specialist voice see technologies ltd fax to boldly go where no one has hacked before
comp.windows.x	xview question yet another xview question is there an easy way of detecting when a user has resized a frame externally by way of the window manager e g grabbing and letting go of the frame resize corners under olwm if so please let me know derek derek c richardson tel x institute of astronomy fax cambridge u k cb ha e mail dcr mail ast cam ac uk
comp.windows.x	tn support for xterm is there a tn program which support xterm i don t like x at all you can t copy with other windows thanks
comp.windows.x	re tn support for xterm in article changj qucdn queensu ca changj qucdn queensu ca writes is there a tn program which support xterm i don t like x at all you can t copy with other windows thanks the x at export lcs mit edu supposedly does i use another x that was cleaned up by brian ward ward math psu edu which adds better color support and cleans up lots of bugs as well as cut paste i just put it on export lcs mit edu as x v beta tar z dave system administrator penn state population research institute end of article of what next npq
comp.windows.x	re xv author is on vacation till may or so amir matis ingr com writes for all those people flaming john bradley the author of xv he s on vacation till may or i don t remember maybe we all should slow down and wait to hear his side wrt copyrights fees etc while i have respect for john s ability and integrity i really regret his leaving just after a major release or more accurately making the release just before leaving several of us are having problems with xv and in particular i have issues with all the fixes that have so far been made to the imakefiles and xv h without john to adjudicate and everybody posting fixes that work for them chaos is inevitable let s hope it is temporary john guile skywalker brooks using his dad s account
comp.windows.x	source code of x dear netters could you mail the source code of the book advanced x window application programming by johnson and reichard to me if you need any source code just ask me thank you very much sincerely zeng qiyong zeng qiyong suny at buffulo
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped given that all the source code contains explicit permission to use or modify the code without fee in addition to the shareware notice i would say that the shareware notice is unenforceable all you need to do is make minor changes to create a derivative work which is explicitly allowed under the first part of the copyright notice of course this would be circumventing the author s wishes on the subject but i d say if you re not going to pay him no matter what you d be on relatively safe ground with that approach in fact given the internal contradictions of the copyright notices i d guess none of it could ever be enforced but not being a lawyer i can t be positive regardless the fees he s asking are not excessive and i would encourage anyone who wants to use the program to pay them if at all possible even though it is unlikely that you have actual legal obligations to pay the author it would be reasonable to do so to support his efforts if nothing else brad brad daniels if money can t buy happiness daniels neosoft com i guess i ll have to rent it i don t work for neosoft and weird al yenkovic don t speak for my employer
comp.windows.x	re xv has escaped in article sophia inria fr muller mafalda inria fr christophe muller writes anyway at simulog we will abandon xv we were using it mostly for slide shows because of its loop feature that display does not have display from the wonderful imagemagick package d but i think i will implement it myself even a shell script should do the job and forget xv xli and xloadimage have a goto flag graeme gill
comp.windows.x	x on intel based unix frequently asked questions faq archive name intel unix x faq last modified mar note this is a major re organization and replacement of my frequently asked questions about x faq list this article includes answers to i what options do i have for x software on my intel based unix system free options commercial options ii what is xfree and where do i get it what is xfree what oss are supported what video hardware is supported what about accelerated boards why doesn t xfree support color vga modes what other hardware or software requirements are there where can i get source for xfree where can i get binaries for xfree iv what general things should i know about running xfree installation directories configuration files determining vga dot clocks and monitor modes rebuilding reconfiguring the server from the link kit v what os specific things should i know about running xfree svr svr bsd linux mach vi what things should i know for building xfree from source vii is there anything special about building clients with xfree bsd compatibility library ansiccoptions this article does not include answers to general x questions since these are already covered by the x faq that is regularly posted by david b lewis faq craft uunet uu net if you have anything to add or change on the faq just let me know especially if you had a problem that someone else was able to help you with send changes to steve ecf toronto edu please put faq somewhere in the subject line so that my mail filter will put it in the correct mail folder please do not ask me questions that are not answered in the faq i do not have time to respond to these individually instead post your question to the net and send me the question and answer together when you get it frequently asked questions about x on intel based unix with answers i what options do i have for x software on my intel based unix system free options the best option is xfree which is an enhanced version of x any other version of x will have slower performance and will be more difficult to compile information on how to obtain xfree is listed below x is the port of the x server to system v that was done by thomas roell roell sgcs com it supports a wide variety of svga boards there are major free versions x is based on x r x is included in mit s x r distribution ie you don t need to patch it into the mit source any more x is the current commercial offering from sgcs see below commercial options metro link w mcnab road pompano beach fl fax email sales metrolink com summary os qnx svr svr sco unixware lynxos desqview x venix isc solaris pyramid sunos hw ega vga svga tiga targa a mach s wd fujistu matrox microfield graphics r other motif openlook xview xie imaging extension xv video extension audio drivers multi media sgcs snitily graphics consulting services brookgrove lane cupertino ca fax email info sgcs com or mips zok info summary os svr svr hw a ati ultra s diamond stealth svga other motif dual headed server consensys corporation pat booker rd universal city tx phone fax email info consensys com summary os consensys v consensys version of unix system v release hw x r server support for vga svga other moolit motif x r clients the santa cruz operation inc p o box santa cruz california sco unix fax email info sco com summary os odt odt sco unix v hw x r server support for svga a s tms x wd c xga assorted local bus see sco hardware compatabilty guide for actual card vendors other motif answer software consulting p o box columbus ohio xlab email sales x coher com summary os coherent r or greater hw works with any vesa compliant video note other commercial vendors including os vendors describing bundled software are welcome to submit summary information summary information such as the above ii what is xfree and where do i get it what is xfree xfree is an enhanced version of x which was distributed with x r this release consists of many bug fixes speed improvements and other enhancements here are the highlights of the enhancements the speedup package from glenn lai is an integral part of xfree selectable at run time via the xconfig file some speedups require an et based svga and others require a virtual screen width of the speedups suitable to the configuration are selected by default with a high quality et board vram this can yield up to improvement of the xstones benchmark over x the fx packages from jim tsillas are included as the default operating mode if speedup is not selected this mode is now equivalent in performance to x b x r and approximately faster than x support for localconn compile time selectable for server clients or both this support is for both svr and svr for svr with the advanced compatibility package local connections from sco xsight odt clients are supported drivers for ati and trident tvga c and tvga svga chipsets refer to the files readme ati and readme trident for details about the ati and trident drivers support for compressed bitmap fonts has been added thomas eberhardt s code from the contrib directory on export lcs mit edu type font code from mit contrib tape has been included and is compile time selectable there are contributed type fonts in the contrib directory on export lcs mit edu new configuration method which allows the server s drivers and font renderers to be reconfigured from both source and binary distributions integrated support for bsd mach and linux a monochrome version of the server which will run on generic vga cards is now included the following key features were added with the release of xfree they were not in xfree the monochrome server has been enhanced to do bank switching of available svga memory to allow virtual screens up to x see the x manual page for more information support for the hercules mono card has been added to the monochrome server and with it the ability to support a two headed server one vga and one hercules so far this has only been tested on svr it is also reported to work under linux svr shared libraries tested under isc svr and support for svr there are some special considerations to consider due to new usl bugs see the readme svr file for more information support for ps mice and logitech mouseman trackman some versions of these devices were not previously compatible a new tutorial on how to develop correct video card and monitor timing data written by eric raymond derived from previous documentation and a lot of experimentation greatly improved support for international keyboards including implementation of the compose key functionality found on many vendor servers see the x keybd manual page for more information the accuracy with which the server detects svga pixel clocks has been improved and the timings are now stored at accuracies of mhz users may want to consider removing an existing clocks line from their xconfig file and re probing using the new server many enhancements in error handling and parsing of the xconfig configuration file error messages are much more informative and intuitive and more validation is done there are many new options that can be enabled in the xconfig file see the x manual page for more information on the format of this file plus a number of other small things refer to the changelog file in the source distribution for full details also included are a tutorial on monitor timing by eric raymond and the current x mode database and a sample xdm configuration by david wexelblat what oss are supported xfree supports svr consensys v svr microport dell esix isc at t mst consensys uhc svr isc at t linux mach bsd bsd is not supported but it should work the most active bsd person is greg lehey grog lemis de note that esix d and sco are not supported yet but anyone should feel free to submit patches if you are interested in tackling this send mail to xfree physics su oz au what video hardware is supported at this time xfree supports the following svga chipsets tseng et tseng et paradise pvga western digital wd c wd c wd c these are supersets of the pvga and use its driver genoa gvga trident tvga c tvga ati all of the above are supported in both color and monochrome modes with the exception of the ati chipsets which are only supported in color mode the monochrome server also supports generic vga cards using k of video memory in a single bank and the hercules card on the et only k of video memory is supported for the monochrome server and the gvga has not been tested with more than k it appears that some of the svga card manufacturers are going to non traditional mechanisms for selecting pixel clock frequencies to avoid having to modify the server to accommodate these schemes xfree adds support for using an external program to select the pixel clock this allows programs to be written as new mechanisms are discovered refer to the readme clkprog file for information on how these programs work if you need to write one if you do develop such a program the xfree team would be interested in including it with future xfree releases if you are purchasing new hardware for the purpose of using xfree it is suggested that you purchase an et based board such as the orchid prodesigner iis avoid recent diamond boards xfree will not work with them because diamond won t provide programming details in fact the xfree project is actively not supporting new diamond products as long as such policies remain in effect contributions of code will not be accepted because of the potential liabilities if you would like to see this change tell diamond about it some people have asked if xfree would work with local bus or eisa video cards theoretically the means of communication between the cpu and the video card is irrelevant to xfree compatibility it could be isa eisa or local bus what should matter is the chipset on the video card unfortunately the developers don t have a lot of access to eisa or vlb machines so this is largely an untested theory however we have yet to see any reports of things not working on one of these buses and we have several reports of xfree working fine on them what about accelerated boards at this time there is no support in xfree for accelerated boards like the s ati ultra a tiga etc this support is available in commercial products from sgcs and metrolink for svr and svr an s server is available for bsd and linux contact hasty netcom com for bsd or jon robots ox ac uk for linux a beta a server is available for linux contact martin cs unc edu or jon robots ox ac uk note these servers are not part of xfree why doesn t xfree support color vga modes the reason that this is not supported is the way vga implements the color modes in color modes each byte of frame buffer memory contains pixel but the color modes are implemented as bit planes each byte of frame buffer memory contains bit from each of each of pixels and there are four such planes the mit frame buffer code is not designed to deal with this if vga handled color modes by packing bit pixels into each byte the mit code could be modified to support this or it already may i m not sure but for the vga way of doing things a complete new frame buffer implementation is required some beta testers are looking into this but nothing is yet available from the project what other hardware or software requirements are there obviously a supported svga board and os are required to run x efficiently mb of memory should be considered a minimum the various binary releases take mb of disk space depending on the os e g whether or not it supports shared libraries to build from sources at least mb of free disk space will be required although mb should be considered a comfortable lower bound where can i get source for xfree source patches for the current version based on x r pl from mit are available via anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu under contrib xfree ftp physics su oz au under xfree ftp win tue nl under pub xfree for the rest of this faq these location will be called ftp refer to the readme file under the specified directory for information on which files you need to get to build your distribution where can i get binaries for xfree binaries are available via anonymous ftp from ftp physics su oz au svr binaries under xfree svr ftp win tue nl svr binaries under pub xfree svr ferkel ucsb edu svr binaries under pub svr xfree stasi bradley edu svr binaries under pub xfree svr blancmange ma utexas edu svr isc binaries under pub isc ftp prz tu berlin de svr isc binaries under pub pc isc xfree tsx mit edu linux binaries under pub linux packages x agate berkeley edu bsd binaries under pub bsd ports xfree ftp cs uwm edu mach binaries under i ensure that you are getting xfree some of these sites may archive older releases as well each binary distribution will contain a readme file that describes what files you need to take from the archive and which compile time option selections were made when building the distribution iv what general things should i know about running xfree installation directories the top level installation directory is specified by the projectroot usr x by default variable in config site def binaries include files and libraries are installed in projectroot bin include lib this can be changed when rebuilding from sources and can be modified via symbolic links for those oss that support them this directory is nonstandard and was chosen this way to allow xfree to be installed alongside a commercial vendor supplied x implementation configuration files the xfree server reads a configuration file xconfig on startup the search path contents and syntax for this file are documented in the server manpage which should be consulted before asking questions determining vga dot clocks and monitor modes david e wexelblat dwex mtgzfs att com maintains a database of known clock settings for vga cards and monitor settings the database is installed in usr x lib x etc modedb txt and is in the source tree under mit server ddx x etc this database is also available from him for the latest copy and is kept on export lcs mit edu in contrib x modedb z which is updated occasionally obtain a copy of this database it just might have the settings you need if you create new settings please send them to david for inclusion in the database if this doesn t help you the videomodes doc by eric raymond file with xfree contains tutorials on how to come up with these timings it may be helpful to start with settings that almost work and use this description to get them right when you do send the information to david wexelblat for inclusion in the database note the old clock exe program is not supported any more and is completely unnecessary if you need to determine dot clock values for a new board remove the clocks line from your xconfig file if present and start the server the server will probe for clocks itself and print them out you can use these values to put a clocks line into your xconfig file which is not necessary but will speed up starting the server in the future rebuilding reconfiguring the server from the link kit if you have installed the server binary link kit it is possible to reconfigure the drivers and font renderers in the server this is fully explained in the readme file that is available with the link kit v what os specific things should i know about running xfree first of all the server must be installed suid root mode svr why won t my xterm run properly if your kernel is not built with the consem module you should define consem no in you environment otherwise xterm won t run csh users should use setenv consem no the esix console driver patch is known to cause keymapping problems with xfree it recommended that this patch not be installed alternatively they keymap can be fixed with xmodmap svr make sure you look at ftp readme isc if that s what you are running bsd make sure you look at ftp readme bsd also a separate bsd faq is maintained by richard murphey rich rice edu the latest version should be available in the file xfree bsd faq at the following ftp sites agate berkeley edu pub bsd ports xfree wuarchive wustl edu mirrors bsd ports xfree grasp univ lyon fr pub bsd ports xfree linux you must be running linux pl or greater and have the gcc jump libraries installed make sure the binaries x x mono xload and xterm are setuid root if your kernel doesn t have tcp support compiled in you ll have to run the server as x pn the default startup configuration assumes that tcp is not available if it is change the two files usr x bin startx and usr x lib x xdm xservers removing the pn argument to x make sure dev console is either a link to dev tty or has the major number minor number also note that if dev console is not owned by the user running x then xconsole and xterm will not permit console output redirection xdm will properly change the owner but startx won t when running xdm from rc local you will need to provide it with a tty for example xdm dev console for more detailed information please read the file readme present with the distribution on tsx mit edu mach make sure you look at ftp readme mach vi what things should i know for building xfree from source this section has been removed from the faq since it is fully explained in ftp readme and the os specific readmes please look at those files for information on building xfree vii is there anything special about building clients with xfree bsd compatibility library a lot of clients make use of bsd functions like bcopy etc the default configuration files are set up to link with libxbsd a which contains emulation for bcopy bzero bcmp ffs random seed a better way of providing the b functions is to include x xfuncs h in source files that call them xfuncs h provides macro definitions for these in terms of the sysv mem functions if you are linking with a vendor supplied library which calls some of these functions then you should link with libxbsd a ansiccoptions this is something that was added to allow a developer to get rid of the ansi ness defined in the default ccoptions without having to rewrite the entire ccoptions line for example with stock mit you d see something like ccoptions ansi o fwritable strings and to get rid of the ansi ness the developer would have to put ccoptions o fwritable strings in his imakefile with this change you would see a default of ansiccoptions ansi ccoptions o fwritable strings and all the developer would have to put in the imakefile is ansiccoptions to get rid of the ansi ness many x clients will die a horrible death with ansi the effect is even more dramatic in practice because ccoptions is actually quite complex the other issue is that one must add ansiccoptions ansiccoptions to a passcdebugflags definition xfree contact information ongoing development planning and support is coordinated by the xfree core team at this time the core team consists of the original gang of four david dawes dawes physics su oz au glenn lai glenn cs utexas edu jim tsillas jtsilla damon ccs northeastern edu david wexelblat dwex mtgzfs att com those supporting non sysv operating systems robert baron robert baron ernst mach cs cmu edu mach rich murphey rich rice edu bsd orest zborowski obz kodak com linux e mail sent to xfree physics su oz au will reach all of the core team thanks to all the people who already sent me corrections or additions especially david wexelblat one of the major contributors of updates steve kotsopoulos p eng mail steve ecf toronto edu systems analyst bitnet steve ecf utoronto bitnet engineering computing facility uucp uunet utai ecf steve university of toronto phone
comp.windows.x	open look gui frequently asked questions frequently asked questions about the open look graphical user interface if your question isn t here please try at least man openwin man xnews man xview and looking in the appropriate manuals listed in the bibliography below before posting to the comp windows open look comp windows x or alt toolkits xview newsgroups and or their corresponding mailing lists special notes i have not updated this faq for the recently announced openwindows due to ship later this year yes sun is moving to motif along with all of cose but the motif to which they move will be a new motif with some of the open look ui features added yes openwindows will use dps instead of news news is dead this means tnt is dead too xview and olit will be supported but probably not enhanced after the next release i don t know if there will be a source release of xview or not the cose environment will include at least some of sun s deskset ported to motif look for calendar manager and mailtool at least yes the new mailtool will be mime compliant frequently asked questions for x are posted to comp windows x monthly this is version revision last posted version contents in rn and trn you can use control g to go to the next topic subject terminology open look openwindows x xview mo olit motif subject window managers olwm olvwm subject openwindows terminals and other displays subject configuration files getting started with openwindows subject key bindings cut and paste subject applications finding out subject deskset calendar manager etc subject trouble shooting strange error messages subject trouble shooting it won t let me type subject trouble shooting not authorized to use display subject trouble shooting other common problems subject trouble shooting xview problems subject fonts subject environment variables subject where can i get it ftp implementations etc subject bibliography books manuals journals papers beer mats subject getting this file revision history recent changes subject terminology open look openwindows x xview olit moolit motif what is open look open look is a specification of a graphical user interface gui a gui determines the look and feel of a system the shape of windows buttons and scroll bars how you resize things how you edit files etc the open look gui is specified developed and maintained jointly by sun microsystems and at t or usl see also bibliography what is openwindows openwindows is a windowing environment that conforms to the open look graphical user interface specifications it s compatible with the x window system from mit as well as currently sun s news and sunview so you can intermix programs written for any of those systems it comes from sun and also with system v release from certain vendors openwindows is sometimes also called openwin or xnews after the program used to start it and the main executable itself respectively it should not be called windows or open look or openlook as these terms are either wrong or apply to something else a commerical openwindows source licence costs about for the server plus about for deskset and another for tooltalk the current versions of openwindows for various platforms are sunos on sun solaris x sunos x on sparc solaris sunos on sparc see also mixing x and openwindows where can i get it what are olit xview and tnt these are all toolkits for programmers to use in developing programs that conform to the open look specifications see the bibliography for documentation on the individual toolkits here s a brief summary olit was at t s open look intrinsics toolkit for the x window system it used a widget set and was probably the easiest for people who were already x xt programmers to learn you could buy the source from at t although you didn t get the same version tht sun ship sun includes the olit library in openwindows q v it is also often included in system v release it was written in c the release of olit in openwindows was olit olit support passed to usl then a division of at t now owned by novell who replaced it with moolit q v note that because of the nature of xt subclassing you will probably want or need olit source in order to develop a large application or anything else that uses subclasses see the proceedings of the x technical conference xview is sun s toolkit for x written in c xview is similar in programmer interface to sunview there s even a shell script to help migrate source code from sunview to xview xview is often said to be the easiest toolkit to learn if you are not familiar with x windows the xview toolkit is included in openwindows and full source is available by anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu and elsewhere the current version of xview from sun is despite rumours to the contrary some even from within sun the xview toolkit is not about to be dropped by sun xview will be included in the next release of openwindows unlike news on the other hand the xview toolkit is not likely to receive as much attention from sun in the future as olit the news toolkit tnt was an object oriented programming system based on the postscript language and news tnt implements many of the open look interface components required to build the user interface of an application it s currently included in openwindows the current version of tnt from sun is release contains some incompatibilities with tnt and tnt but sun are committed to supporting the api at least until they stop news support some time later this year and replace it with display postscript wail you might ask what is committed to means in this context the answer seems to be that it means absolutely nothing sun currently asserts that it is committed to olit however the c user interface toolkit uit consists of an object oriented c class library layered on top of xview and a tool to generate code from devguide gil files the uit also includes features that simplify event management and the use of postscript and color it is said to be compatible with openwindows v and v and presumably v since the release mentions that it works on solaris uit is not an official sun supported product but an ongoing project of various people within sun it can be found on export lcs mit edu in the mit contrib directory as uitv tar z use binary mode where does motif fit in it doesn t motif is an alternative graphical user interface that is being developed by osf it has a look and feel reminiscent of microsoft windows and the os presentation manager there are no non commercial motif toolkits available although the motif source is sold reasonably cheaply by osf although motif is currently available on more platforms than openwindows the open look gui is almost certainly used on many more machines simply because sun and sysvr have such a large installed base sun s cd ware volume contains a roadmap for improving motif applications by converting them to olit there are also notes in the periodic table olit demo openwinhome demo olittable what is moolit moolit is a version of olit from at t usl that lets users choose between a motif and an open look ui feel at run time it will be part of system v release contact joanne newbauer jo usl com what about that display postscript thing sun and adobe have agreed that sun will include the dps extension to x in the next release of openwindows dps is essentially a badly designed hack on top of a slow level postscript interpreter intended to give a very small subset of the functionality of news whilst simultaneously being harder to use as i understand it the only real advantage it has over news is that the manual is much smaller being generally less complete dps is also available on more kinds of machine performance on our rs is not suitable for interactive work what it will be like on the sparcstation remains to be seen note that whereas x news fonts are shared by both subsystems the dps extension to x does not make type postscript fonts available to ordinary x programs it is not like atm on a pc in this regard there is at least one third party version which does make fonts available however subject window managers olwm olvwm what are olwm and olvwm they are window managers a window manager is the part of the x window system e g x that is responsible for deciding how to lay out windows on the screen and for managing the user s interaction with the windows olwm is the standard open look window manager it s included with all of the openwindows q v implementations and you can also get the source by ftp since sun donated it olvwm is a version of olwm that manages a virtual desktop hence the v in its name it shows a little map on the screen with the currently displayed area represented by a little rectangle you can move around by dragging the rectangle or with the arrow keys this lets you run several clients applications and move the display around from one to the other olvwm was derived from the openwindows olwm by scott oaks you need to have xview to compile it get olvwm from an ftp site such as export lcs mit edu in the contrib directory there are three patches can i use my favorite window manager with openwindows instead of olwm yes if you use twm for example or mwm you won t be able to use the pin and unpin feature of olwm and you probably won t see the footers some windows use to display certain messages if you use twm you ll want to use the f delete function to unpin menus and get rid of programs that don t have a quit button when not run under olwm for twm put this in your home twmrc lefttitlebutton target f delete where target is a x icon from usr include x bitmaps alternatively try add a menu to each window managed by twm or tvtwm lefttitlebutton menu f menu ol menu menu ol menu quit f delete for mwm you can double click on the menu icon on the left of the title bar to dismiss a pop up window i am told see the manual page for your window manager twm etc subject openwindows terminals and other displays can i use olwm and olvwm without openwindows or on an x terminal the openwindows xnews server combines sunview news postscript and x this means that it can run programs compiled for any of those systems unfortunately it means that some openwindows programs need either news or sunview support and thus won t run on an x terminal this includes pageview in particular you can use olwm or olvwm see above on an x terminal or a non open windows display and most open look clients e g olit or xview ones will work perfectly well you may find that you get complaints about fonts not being found if so see the fonts section below if you are running the window manager built in to an ncd terminal you may have problems with input focus setting input true in the terminal s xdefault file in usr lib x xdm may or may not help subject configuration files getting started with openwindows what configuration files do i need to know about xinitrc and xsessionrc the first time you run openwindows a xinitrc file will be created in your login directory home if it already exists you might have to edit it somewhat it s simplest to move it and any other old x files you have to another directory and then merge the old and new files if your site uses xdm you should use xsession instead of xinitrc since xdm doesn t look at your xinitrc file openwin init openwin menu and openwin sys these are optional files you can create in your home directory depending on which version of olwm or olvwm you use look in openwinhome lib normally usr openwin lib for these files without the leading and copy any you want to change you may need to edit your xinitrc to get them recognized if you are not on an x terminal you will want to run a console window such as cmdtool c shelltool c xterm c or chuck musciano s contool program so that system output will be directed there instead of writing over your screen note that openwin sys is not executed unless you edit xinitrc xdefaults you can put x windows resource specifications in here in particular it is a good idea to include at least openwindows focuslenience true input true these allow non icccm compliant programs to receive input even if they forget to ask for it props the program that runs when you select properties from the default root menu under olwm or olvwm writes your choices into xdefaults don t put comments in xdefaults since props deletes them startup ps this is the news user profile file read by openwindows actually xnews on startup this is documented in the news programming manual near the back the most useful thing to put here is postscript code to change the keyboard repeat rate although you must be very careful since a syntax error in the postscript means that xnews will either not start up at all or will get broken in strange ways the news manual gives code that is both incorrect and insufficient warning things in this file rarely work on both openwindows and note that the mouse speed is best set in your xinitrc with xset m see the man page for xset man xset and xset help for more information here s what home startup ps should look like if you want a delay of about a third of a second microseconds and a repeat rate of twenty or so keys per second microseconds between repeats for openwindows you ll have to experiment a bit because the repeattime is the delay between keys sent and thus doesn t include the time to process each key which is probably higher on my than on your supersparc gti injection again this is for openwindows don t want the demos see p xxxii of news toolkit reference manual includedemos false def userprofile begin keyrepeatthresh timeval storetimeval def keyrepeattime timeval storetimeval def note and differ greatly end you must also have a user ps file in the same directory like this news findpackage beginpackage tntcore findpackage beginpackage tnt findpackage beginpackage classrepeatkeys pop force repeat ps to autoload endpackage endpackage endpackage if you change these parameters you can test them without restarting the openwindows server like this psh i startup ps welcome to x news version psh i welcome to x news version classinit classrepeatkeys send now press control d you can also either of these two files startup ps and user ps to make the root window be retained so that a postscript drawing on the background won t be erased when you move windows frambuffer retained true put will do this note that this may increase the amount of memory used by the news server xnews dramatically see also trouble shooting it won t let me type trouble shooting is there an easy way to edit xdefaults environment variables how can i configure open look for a left handed mouse and keyboard you can use xmodmap to change the mouse buttons but be prepared for one or two occasional surprises see also man xview for a list of keybindings you can change at least for xview programs with openwindows you can use defaultsedit to set the mouse mappings and then let sunview handle them the status returned by svenv should tell you whether your server is running under sunview or not put this in your xinitrc if eval svenv env then xmodmap e pointer input from defaults else xmodmap e pointer fi how can i get the screen to go blank when the system is idle run screenblank from etc rc local if you can it s a boring but effective screen saver see man screenblank under solaris you ll need to copy screenblank from an older system as it s not supplied then add a new file in etc rc d to make the system run screenblank automatically subject key bindings cut and paste how do i cut and paste between xterm and openwindows programs to go from xterm to textedit say select the text you want to copy by dragging the select mouse button in xterm press copy in the xterm this key is l or meta c the o reilly xview manual gets this wrong move to the textedit window and press paste l or meta v if this doesn t work see trouble shooting cut and paste to go the other way from textedit to xterm select the text in textedit no need to use copy move to the xterm window and press adjust the middle mouse button you can also use the copy cut and paste buttons copy paste is boring what short cuts are available quick copy within textedit mailtool etc click select to get a text caret where you want the copied text to go press and hold down the paste or cut button select the text you want to copy move you ll see that it s underlined or crossed out as appropriate in the jed demo it goes grey let go of the paste or cut button the text you underlined or crossed out appears at the insert caret drag and drop to move a selection select the text you want to copy or move by dragging or multiple clicking the select or adjust mouse button put the mouse pointer anywhere within the selection press and hold down down the select mouse button and move the mouse pointer a little to the right you ll see the cursor changes to be the first letters of the text or some other icon still holding select down move the mouse over the point where you want to drop the text you may see the mouse pointer change to a rifle sight or target to show that it s ok to drop things here let go of select and the text is moved this works in text fields of dialogue boxes as well as in text subwindows drag and drop to copy a selection this is the same as using drag and drop to move a selection except that you must hold the control key down as well as the select mouse button what are the default key bindings in textedit and elsewhere see the man page for textedit for some of them in general the editing moving commands go in the opposite direction when shifted e g ctrl w deletes a word and ctrl w deletes the word to the right of the insert point meta i include file meta f find selection forward backward ctrl a start of line ctrl back word ctrl e end of line ctrl forward word ctrl w delete word ctrl u delete to start end of line ctrl return move to end start of document see the o reilly xview reference manual for a list of some of the default keys see also the olwm or olvwm manual page what can i put in my ttysrc where is it documented see the manual page for shelltool subject applications finding out contact sunsoft or sun and ask for the catalyst open look guide which lists over pages of applications and also the huge catalyst listing of products for suns updated six monthly sun s free cdware cd roms each contain demo versions of several popular open look applications often you can simply contact the vendor concerned to have the license upgraded from demo and receive the full product documentation sunpics produces a cd rom for newsprint users printer s pallate which contains newsprint drivers for a variety of printers and plotters as well as scaleable fonts that you can license there is a separate faq posting in comp windows open look that lists a number of free and commercial aplications mail lee sq com for a copy including open look ui application list in the subject for a faster reply subject deskset mailtool calendar manager etc is there a tty based interface to cm calendar manager yes cm delete cm insert and cm lookup these all have manual pages if man cm delete doesn t work or gives strange messages see under trouble shooting strange error messages below how can i arrange to have my signature included in my outgoing mail the best way is cd cp usr lib textswrc chmod w textswrc edit textswrc use vi textedit or whatever you prefer add the follwing key right filter cat signature you might need to change to home now pressing r will insert your signature file subject fonts does openwindows support type postscript fonts yes under either solaris or i m not sure which or not yet in other words if you have framemaker there is a utility to import them i m told the fonts supplied with openwindows are fully hinted though and comparing them to the microsoft windows and apple truetype fonts is interesting the f font format is described in a publication from the sun openfonts group listed in the bibliography below documentation on the unbundled version of typescaler is also available from sun openfonts you can buy f fonts from sunpics monotype linotype urw and probably other major foundries sunpics newsprint software supports type fonts improving font rendering time although the sun type renderer typescaler is pretty fast it s not as fast as loading a bitmap you can pre generate bitmap fonts for sizes that you use a lot and you can also alter and access the font cache parameters if you have a lot of memory you might want to increase the font cache size psh i welcome to x news version psh will say this at you currentfontmem type this line and here s whai my server was using kbytes setfontmem just to check currentfontmem see pp ff of the news programmer s guide you need to say psh i so that the postscript packages are loaded see the psh man page making bitmap fonts for faster startup mkdir home myfonts cd home myfonts makeafb m openwinhome lib fonts bembo f b creating bembo afb convertfont b bembo afb bembo afb bembo fb chars parameter greater than number of characters supplied ls bembo afb bembo fb synonyms list bldfamily bembo bembo ff encoding latin cat compat list no such file or directory xset fp pwd xset fp rehash if you want the server to see your new font directory every time add this directory to your fontpath environment variable in one of your start up files e g login or profile converting between font formats convertfont etc you can also use folio fonts with an x server by converting them to a bitmap x bdf format first your licence forbids you from using the fonts on another machine and unless you have newsprint you shouldn t use them for printing having said all that you can use makeafb and convertfont to generate bdf files that you can compile with bdftosnf or bdftopcf use mftobdf from the seetex distribution to convert tex pk fonts to x bdf format which you can then use with either x or oenwindows you can also use der mouse s getbdf to get bdf fonts from a running x display server ftp larry mcrcim mcgill edu x getbdf xview olit fonts at dpi there aren t any more precisely the various text fonts such as lucida typewriter sans are available at dpi and in fact are scalable under openwindows the glyph fonts are bitmaps and don t scale very well subject trouble shooting strange error messages no manual entry for cm lookup if man doesn t seem to find openwindows commands even though you are running openwindows try setting the manpath environment variable manpath openwinhome share man usr man export manpath or setenv manpath openwinhome share man usr man for csh users openwinhome should be usr openwin on most systems window window creation failed to get new fd window base frame not passed parent window in environment cannot create base frame process aborted these messages all come from sunview programs sunview was an earlier windowing system for suns and was not networked some of the sunview programs are still around in usr bin and have names that are the same as their openwindows counterparts you almost certainly want to run the programs in openwinhome instead set your path so that openwinhome bin and openwin bin xview for openwindows come before bin or usr bin they re the same or you ll get the sunview versions of mailtool cmdtool shelltool etc memory fault core dumped if you get this from the binder or if binder vanishes suddenly get the following patches binder cetables tooltalk trouble compiling xt xmu or olit programs get wmshellwidgetclass if you are using openwindows x r based xt contact your local sun office and request the following patches x openwindows libxt jumbo patch x openwindows undefined symbols when using shared libxmu if you can t install the patch a workaround is to add u get wmshellwidgetclass u get applicationshellwidgetclass on the link ld or cc o line an alternative is to add assert nodefinitions to cflags in your makefile or even in imake tmpl subject trouble shooting it won t let me type when i try to type into some programs i just get beeps or nothing happens it is a good idea to include at least openwindows focuslenience true input true in your xdefaults file as these allow non icccm compliant programs to receive input even if they forget to ask for it see the next item for editing xdefaults subject trouble shooting cut and paste not working i can t paste from xterm to xview including sun deskset programs under openwindows you need to add the following either to your home xdefaults file or to openwinhome lib app defaults xterm instead xterm vt translations override key l select set clipboard n key l insert selection clipboard you must not move the mouse between ending the selection and pressing l the paste key under openwindows this is already in the app defaults file so if it isn t working check that xfilesearchpath is set to usr openwin lib t n s and if it isn t either set it or copy merge the above lines from openwinhome lib app defaults xterm into usr lib x app defaults xterm see also environment variables this version automatically puts each xterm selection onto the clipboard xterm vt translations override n ctrl meta btn up insert selection primary cut buffer n ctrl meta btnup select end primary cut buffer clipboard n keypress l insert selection clipboard note be sure that the n is at the very end of the line there must be no following spaces and any or signs showing that this faq file was altered must also be removed if you are using x r you may find that adding the lines key l start extend select end primary clipboard cut buffer n keyrelease l kill selection n before the keypress l line will make l cut work as a cut key if you alter home xdefaults instead you must use what x calls a more specific resource name xterm vt translations will do i can t paste from xview including sun deskset programs to xterm if you don t have the sun l keys on the left of your keyboard you can use meta x meta c and meta v for cut coy and paste respectively you can change the keys by adding the following two lines to your xdefaults file edited as you wish the values shown here are the defaults openwindows keyboardcommand copy c meta l openwindows keyboardcommand paste v meta l lists of resources are in the manual page for xview and also in the thinnish blue book companion to volume xview reference manual from o reilly and also in the olwm and olvwm manual pages i always get the same piece of text when i press paste l meta v remove the file tmp textsw shelf and see if that helps see also the next item cut copy and paste don t work at all openwindows only oh dear use ps xuaww grep xv to check that sv xv sel svc is running and that either you or root started it depending on whether you started openwindows with openwin or by logging in through xdm if not start it if it dies check that there is no tmp sv xv sel svc before restarting it you may need to be root to remove it or you can reboot your workstation check that there is space in tmp use df tmp and also see if there are a lot of files there with names like tmp tty txt a if there are several hundred of them cut and paste may take so long that it times out quit any deskset tools such as mailtool filemgr and cm calendar start a terminal emulator and remove and tmp tty txt and tmp text files that are still there it s simplest to quit openwin and start it again after doing that if cut and paste was broken but if it starts working again you can just carry on note that files in tmp not owned by you might be in use by another worker comrade so don t remove those without checking first subject trouble shooting not authorized to use display if you get error messages that look like xlib connection to refused by server xlib internal error during connection authorization check error can t open display try on the machine running openwindows or x xhost machine where machine is the computer on which you ran the command that failed if you want to let other users run programs on the same machine as you using your display you will have to type the bizarre looking xhost hostname or xhost happyboy if happyboy is the name of your workstation this lets any user on happyboy access your display with openwindows you can also use xauth and the programmer s guide describes how to do this in chapter p this is more secure also check the man page for fbtab to stop other users accessing the framebuffer directly also note that there is a sun patch for openwindows under sunos to fix a serious security problem it is available through your local sun answer center as well as through anonymous ftp from ftp uu net system in sun dist fix patchid filename checksum loadmodule tar z on an x terminal there may be a setup menu that lets you change or disable the list of hosts that can access the display if you start getting this message after you ve been logged in overnight there might be a cron job that s removing the unix sockets in tmp that are used to communicate with the server when display doesn t have a hostname before the or is empty have the system administrator change the cron script to skip sockets subject trouble shooting other common problems i get console error messages on my screen and they don t go away sun or if refresh makes the messages vanish but new ones come along later you need to run xterm c from your xinitrc or start one up in the background and then choose save workspace from the workspace utilities menu better still pick up contool and run that get it from export lcs mit edu in the contrib directory it will monitor the console and open flash its icon or beep when a message appears it s very easy to configure if refresh from the workspace utilities menu doesn t make the messages go away a sun with a cg frame buffer has two screens you can move the mouse off the right hand by default edge of the screen and onto a whole new but monochrome display called see the man page for openwin i have a shell script that checks for this and if there s a dev cgfour does openwin dev dev cgfour dev dev bwtwo if you are running x or openwindows you might need to add this to your xinitrc or other startup file eval svenv display unix env olvwm display unix later releases of olwm and olvwm do this automatically you can also run switcher e to get rid of the messages also see the note about contool above is there an easy way of editing xdefaults use props which appears in the default root menu as properties this starts props a property editor which will re write your xdefaults after removing comments it then applies any changes keep comments by using comment instead of for example comment font palatino italic how do i get the file manager to use emacs instead of textedit set the default editor to sh c exec emacs font lucidasanstypewriter file you can change the font if you prefer a smaller one how do i run openwindows in inverse video this tends not to work under openwindows with opwnwindows there are various ways including using bg and fg options if you re using openwindows on a sun probably the best you can do short of upgrading the workstation to a sparc is to use xterm instead of cmdtool why don t flat check boxes work a known bug may make guide s output dump core if you use these a workaround is to edit the guide output as it s only guide s output that s broken not the actual check box code this applies only to versions of devguide before devguide if you re still using an ancient devguide you should upgrade as soon as possible the new one is fantastic when i leave openwindows my screen goes blank or my mouse cursor stays on the screen try running clear colormap if this helps put it as the last line in the shell script you use to start openwindows e g openwin when i use snapshot the system crashes or the server hangs or something this was a bug related to some systems only the only work round was to use some other screen dump program such as xwd xv or xgrabsc why have some of my function keys stopped working keys f and f changed from sunf and sunf to sunxk f and sunxk f respectively in openwindows applications must be recompiled or you might be able to use xmodmap or the public domain xkeycaps program to change your keyboard layout back again when i type shelltool or cmdtool or textedit i get the sunview version see under trouble shooting strange error messages below see also next item mixing x and openwindows see also next item note that openwindows includes the x r core distribution to patch level but not the contrib directory these notes apply to openwindows although you could also the do same sort of thing with openwindows and x r install the x libraries in usr lib x you can intermix openwindows and x r or x r they re all compatible in this respect put the x binaries in for example usr bin x put usr bin x last in your path so that you get openwindows versions of programs instead of x ones where appropriate although this is a matter of preference in any event put the openwindows bin directory first see the preceding item for more details on that if you have bin or usr bin they re the same directory on sunos earlier in your path than openwinhome bin xview you ll get sunview programs instead of openwindows ones set ld library path so that usr openwin lib is last after the x library directory this doesn t matter with openwindows but with older versions you ll get error messages from x programs if you don t do this the messages are generally harmless see next item although xdm core dumps if this isn t right set openwinhome to the directory containing openwindows if it isn t usr openwin see also environment variables especially xfilesearchpath i get error messages on my screen about ld so libx so not found set ld library path to be usr openwin if you also use x use usr lib usr lib usr openwin lib if you put this in a shell script or your profile use openwinhome usr openwin lib instead of usr openwin this is for bin sh for csh it is different i launch my filemgr and i get ld so map heap error at dev zero your system needs to be patched look in openwinhome lib ospatches and install the patch why doesn t answerbook run for me you must be running openwindows to use answerbook it won t run under x on an x terminal or on anything else because it uses news to draw the postscript text and pictures if you are using openwindows you need to use the openwindows compatible navigator it s called navigator ow on the answerbook cd rom if all answerbook users are using openwindows you can replace navigator wih navigator ow altogether rename the old one first to satisfy your sense of paranoia the navigator ow binary is also on cd ware vol note that the data files are in postscript so you can look at them with a postsript viewer q v why aren t there any fish in realxfishdb a fixed version of realxfishdb is available by ftp from ftp eng auburn edu as pub realxfishdb z why is the properties choice disabled in the window menu it isn t implemented yet many programs do respond to the properties key l though or have a pop up menu with properties on it file completion in the c shell is broken in cmdtool sadly true but use shelltool or xterm instead and it s fine it also works if you run command tool on a remote machine fixed in openwindows shipped with solaris when i run olit programs some of the widgets are red release of olit added mouseless operation action widgets can be selected via the keyboard the currently selected item is highlighted in red the red stain to show that it has the input focus to disable it in most places add this to your home xdefaults file traversalon off textedit traversalon on textfield traversalon on you can change the color using for example inputfocuscolor grey input focuscolor green list inputfocuscolor your background color see the man page resources w at the start of the olit widget set reference manual included in the openwindows programmer documentation meanwhile contact your distributor and ask for patch id the olit cte jumbo patch when i run several programs the colors on the screen all change when i move into a different window colormap flashing this is becasue most hardware can only display a few colors at a time however you can minimise the effect with the following procedure start all the applications with colors that you wish to reserve run cmap compact save to create the owcolors file put the line cmap compact init near the start of your start up file xinitrc exit and then restart the window system cmap compact init will push those colors owcolors to the end of the colormap and reserves them also note that control l locks the colors of the current window and control l unlocks them this is described in the olwm manual page pageiew uses the wrong colors or makes the colormap flash see above this problem was reported by people for some reason running the motif window manager mwm with openwindows try running pageview like this openwinhome bin reservecolors svmono openwinhome bin pageview openwinhome bin reservecolors discard xdm breaks things command tool doesn t like being run without a unix controlling terminal use etc setsid to start your command tools and all will be well sunview applications may need to be run with svenv as in svenv exec usr bin traffic because xdm won t set the necessary environment variables note that the mit xdm starts up the x server as root which is a security hole for openwindows use the openwindows xdm or be aware that your users can access files and start unix processes ass root function keys and stopped working in openwindows the x names keysyms for these keys was changed to sunxk f and sunxk f code which uses them should be recompiled or you might be able to get away with xmodmap e keysym sunxk f sunf subject trouble shooting xview problems this section is here only until an xview faq appears which has been promised but hasn t reached here note that there is also a usenet newsgroup alt toolkits xview although it doesn t sem to have very wide distribution and has triffic of the order of one or two articles per month you should also look at the faq in comp windows x how do i set the font of individual scrolling list items panel list font takes an int row number and an xv opaque font handle panel list fonts take a null terminated list of xv opaque font handles there is no easy way to make an entire list fixed width font you have to make sure that you always specify panel list font when you insert a new row into that list or write a convenience function insert row list row string that hides the nasty bits how do i keep an xview pop up window displayed after a button is pressed in the button callback do xv set button panel notify status xv error null this will keep the window visible you might also need to investigate the menu notify status attribute how do i make an xview button look pressed call panel begin preview and panel cancel preview these are documented in er the xview source openwindows imake doesn t work properly here is greg earle s patch to be applied in openwinhome note that you should edit lib config sun cf afterwards to get osname and osminorversion right minorversion is in sunos for example i have edited the patch a little so any bugs are mine lee sq com bin xmkmf orig wed sep bin xmkmf tue aug elif n openwinhome then args duseinstalled openwinhome lib config else elif n openwinhome then args i openwinhome lib config duseinstalled dxcomm else lib config site def orig wed sep lib config site def tue aug define bindir openwinhome bin define libdir openwinhome lib define incroot openwinhome share include define installnonexecfile file dest install file install c instdatflags file dest define nullparameter note the patch is new but i have not marked each line with a liam subject environment variables environment variables and plausible values to use this list doesn t take into account any local changes that you might have made of course this list is for openwindows differences for openwindows are marked and i ve added some comments for users of x r and x r too display the name of the x windows display to use on the local machine the one actually running x or xnews on some machines for a second monochrome screen machine running unix on other machines you may need to do xhost other machine to let programs on other machines use your display see also under trouble shooting and see the section on xauth in the openwindows version programmer s guide pp ff see also console messages under trouble shooting fontpath where xnews searches for fonts usr openwin lib fonts you can also use xset fp dir to add a directory to the font path but you may have to do xset fp rehash afterwards this is fine under openwindows but many x servers have font problems helppath where xview looks when you press the help key or f usr openwin lib locale usr openwin lib help on sunos or with openwindows omit the first entry which is for sites using a local other than c or usa ld library path where to look to find shared c libraries usr lib usr lib usr openwin lib usr cc arch the usr cc arch lib entry is only needed if you use c programs openwinhome where openwindows lives usr openwin keyboard mouse serial devices to use instead of the console don t set these for normal use dev kbd and dev mouse path where the shell searches for programs to run openwinhome bin openwinhome bin xview usr local bin home bin arch usr ucb usr bin usr bin x usr hosts you will certainly want to change this example there is no openwinhome bin xview in openwindows xfilesearchpath where programs look for app defaults files usr openwin lib t n s this is set automatically by openwin in openwindows you might want to use usr lib x t n s or perhaps both separated with a for example for sh users xfilesearchpath openwinhome lib t n s usr lib x t n s export xfilesearchpath if you use x r you might instead want usr lib x l t n c s usr lib x l t n c s usr lib x t n c s usr lib x l t n s usr lib x l t n s usr lib x t n s openwinhome lib t n s put all this on one line though with no spaces together with the following in lib xinitrc xrdb merge end xrdb customization end xrdb xrdb merge end xrdb ifdef color customization color endif end xrdb you automatically get a color oclock editres bitmap xcalc and xlogo since they use the customization resource appearing as c in the xfilesearchpath see oclock n according to rainer sinkwitz sinkwitz ifi unizh ch subject where can i get it ftp implementations etc xview is available by anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu and elsewhere moolit can be bought from at t in source form openwindows can be obtained from sun or you can get the source from interactive systems inc it is also included in some vendors system v release implementations although that s not always the latest version the current release of openwindows from sun for supported architectures is for the sun series it is frozen at openwindows note that sun includes openwindows with sunos and it is also included as the windowing system for solaris there are said by sun to be over ports of openwindows either available now or in progress unfortunately none of them seem to be available from anywhere contact anthony ovi com for more information subject bibliography books manuals journals papers beer mats the open look tm graphical interface is documented in two books sun microsystems inc open look graphical user interface application style guidelines addison wesley and sun microsystems inc open look graphical user interface functional specification addison wesley the main documentation for the x window system comes from o reilly associates in about nine or ten volumes the most useful for open look users are volume xlib programming manual volume xlib reference manual volume x window system user s guide an open look edition of volume should appear later this year volume xview programmer s manual dan heller make sure you get the rd edition for xview companion to volume xview reference manual ed thomas van raalte the companion to volume is an expanded version of the attribute summary from the previous edition of the xview programming manual together with other reference information so that in practice you have to buy both books o reilly also have a thinnish orange book on the differences between x r and rx olit programmers will also want the xt books volumes and there is a new big fat green vol updated for x r a journal the x resource may also be of interest o reilly associates morris street suita a sebastopol ca or in the usa and canada only fax email nuts ora com or uunet ora nuts for other distributors mail fax or call some of the o reilly examples are available fro ftp from export lcs mit edu in the contrib oreilly directory the system v release documentation from prentice hall may also include a section on openwindows david miller describes programming with olit in his an open look at unix m t press nabajyoti brkakati gives an excellent introduction to x and to olit programming as well as setting up and using x and openwindows in unix r desktop guide to open look sams isbn you can get the examples from this book as export lcs mit edu contrib naba olguide examples tar z also about using olit and xt in particular the x window system programming and applications with xt open look edition doug young and john pew prentice hall isbn x there are also hp widgets and motif ugh versions of this book the example source code in this book can be obtained by ftp from export lcs mit edu file contrib young pew olit z there is an introduction to xview in writing applications for sun systems vol a guide for macintosh r programmers sun microsystems pub addison wesley to learn more about the news and postscript languages see the news book springer verlag sadly a little out of date postscript language reference manual second edition adobe systems inc addison wesley the red book note that openwindows is a level postscript implementation with certain level features such as composite fonts to some degree postscript language tutorial and cookbook adobe systems inc addison wesley the blue book there s at least one book on using solaris i e sunos sun also supplies a large amount of documentation with openwindows although you may have to order it separately here s what i have they are each a little over cm square wider than a paper and vary from about cm to about cm thick they say user s guide or programmer s guide on the front the user manuals have a red stripe on the bottom and the programmer ones have a green stripe openwindows version release manual openwindows version installation and start up guide openwindows version deskset reference guide openwindows version user s guide desktop integration guide also available in bookstores programmer s guide openwindows version reference manual the man pages the news toolkit reference manual news programming guide olit widget set reference manual xview reference manual converting sunview applications f font format specification order separately there are also some other sets of documentation including the typescaler documentation from the openfonts group for example there doesn t seem to be a complete list anywhere tooltalk setup and administration guide sunsoft tooltalk programmer s guide sunsoft there might be documentation about the link manager somewhere too at t includes several large thorny bushes worth of paper with olit sun s answerbook cd rom contains a lot of the above documentation including some of the o reilly books not the xview volume though volume of the o reilly series is about x administration and mentions openwindows although it is primarily aimed at x r several other books are in the works subject getting this file revision history recent changes mail lee sq com to ask for it douglas n arnold dna math psu edu keeps an up to date copy on ftp math psu edu currently in the file ftp pub faq open look the net answers archives and servers may or may not know about this file since they ve just changed hands and this file was previously in one archive but not the other id open look faq v lee exp acknowledgements andrei arkhipov andr elvis sovusa com feb binder patch douglas n arnold dna math psu edu feb various changes ian darwin ian sq com christopher davis ckd eff org paul eggert eggert bi twinsun com feb screenblank on solaris r stewart ellis elliss frith egr msu edu feb assert nodefinitions jeff fleck jefff meaddata com feb the colormap stuff rick heli rick heli eng sun co feb including signature nicholas hounsome nh cbnewsg cb att com feb xt olit cc workaround larry matthias matthias artos larc nasa gov feb news colormap flashing john b melby melby yk fujitsu co jp fai com feb south paws christian sebeke sebeke frodo lfi uni hannover de feb xt jumbo patch kevin w thomas kwthomas nsslsun nssl uoknor edu mar olvwm patches larry w virden lvirden cas org mar various comments and many others you get deleted from this list after a while liam quin manager of contracting softquad inc lee sq com open look ui faq metafont list hexsweeper news game lq text text retrieval
comp.windows.x	list of programs with open look user interface id open look programs faq v lee exp locker lee contents subject applications application builders subject applications graphing tools subject applications utilities subject applications other subject tools terminal emulators subject other commercial applications subject applications toolkit extensions subject openwindows ports subject xview ports subject xview ports subject games free and commercial subject applications application builders commercial devguide contact sunpics lets you use drag and drop to create an open look application with xview olit uit or tnt very easy to use free dirt there might be an olit port of this ui builder commercial exocode contact expert object one of the first third party gui builders to support open look using the xview toolkit it was reviewed in sunexpert magazine in commercial objectbuilder contact parcplace debra frances debra parcplace com uib is a user interface builder which supports building applications that support both open look and motif it generates code for parcplace s oi c toolkit and can make use of user created subclasses note oi can also display an osf motif gui at runtime free wcl uses x resources to specify an xt widget hierarchy and actions to user defined callbacks uses olit xt or motif commercial xvt contact xvt systems lets you write code to a common subset of open look motif microsoft windows the macintosh gui and even terminals using curses you buy an xvt toolkit for each environment subject applications graphing tools free dstool xview based program that plots lorenz attractors and other chaotic things in real time also includes a mathematical expression interpreter ftp macomb tn cornell edu free ace gr graph and analysis program xvgr ftp ftp ccalmr ogi edu xvgr tar z in ccalmr pub acegr handles x y scatterplots lineplots bargraphs fft analysis running averages polynomial fits etc free robot a scientific graph plotting and data analysis tool contact robin corbet corbet astro psu edu description graph plotting in various styles axes data manipulation arithmetic functions smoothing folding sorting fitting to data using gaussians polynomials lorentzians and or user defined functions annotation of graphs log files commands with loops etc colour postscript output ftp astrod astro psu edu in pub astrod ftp files robotx tar z everything ftp files robotmanual ps z just the documentation ftp files robot sun z binary built on a sparcstation requirements robot is xview based user interface portions of code are written in c data manipulation code is written in fortran hence a fortran compiler is also required or the public domain f c package alternatively a sparc binary is available by anonymous ftp subject applications utilities free boss description an open look ui to the casio boss scheduler free props ftp export lcs mit edu pub r untarred contrib lib xview clients props description this is the openwindows properties editor that appears when you choose the properties item from the workspace menu free contool ftp from export lcs mit edu description a special purpose console window that can filter out or take special action on specified console messages written by chuck musciano requirements xview free faces description displays pictures of people who have sent you electronic mail violates the data protection act in the u k subject applications other commercial bimail contact bim pge sunbim be x address c be a rtt p bim o horizon s geurts g patrick notes bimail is a complete x electronic mail system it consists in a user interface which gives access to all x services with a consistent look and feel a message transfer agent mta system which can transfer messages over x tp and tcp ip using rfc a gateway to smtp mail is also available free calentool description a day week month year at a glance calendar and almanac ftp export lcs mit edu contrib calentool xp tar z contact bill randle tektronix inc billr saab cna tek com free emacstool description a sunview program that was converted to xview and is included with the gnu emacs distribution free genix contact ian darwin ian sq com a genealogy program written in c using guide incomplete as of jan inquire for details free workman audio cd player for x sun ultrix requirements xview libraries ftp ultrix binary ftp hyperion com in workman ftp ftp ucsc edu in incoming database of over cds contact koreth hyperion com steven grimm free pan postit notes free wais ftp sunsite unc edu description networked distributed text retrieval system olit based front end notes you might to need to add lce to the makefile free xrolo rolodex card index address book free xv display description an xview program for showing a text file like more commercial searchit contact sunsoft or sunexpress us uk germany france platforms sparc solaris x price notes searchit is a full text search and retrieval application designed to improve individual and group productivity it makes an index to files and can later retrieve documents by words or phrases ranking the results in relevance order commercial showme contact sunsoft notes conferencing software that lets multiple connected users share the same drawing screen with bitmap capture and moveable pointer requirements you can only run one showme per computer so you have to have a cpu per conference member free xvman man pages viewer free xvtdl todo list manager ftp export lcs mit edu contrib xvtdl tar z contrib xvtdl readme requirements xview libraries contact mike jipping jipping cs hope edu bitnet jipping hope organisation hope college department of computer science free name finder contact richard elling eng auburn edu ftp ftp eng auburn edu pub name finder tar z patches pub name finder compile patch requirements openwindows c or greater to recompile description name finder was orginally designed as a replacement for the name finder missing from the openwindows version mailtool it has since grown into a tool for several electronic mail related activities including interaction with local listserv robots for handling mail lists requesting full name style mail aliases from your local postmaster and providing mailbox status information ala finger name finder is written in c cfront using gxv version if you don t have access to a c compiler a precompiled sparc executable is included in the distribution free bibcard interface for bibtex databases requirements xview ftp iamsun unibe ch in x bibcard tar z ftp includes source and sparc binary for sunos version description gui for mantaining bibliography databases which can be used with latex tex and framemaker free moxftp interface to ftp ftp ftp chpc utexas edu as file packages x xftp tar z contact bill jones jones chpc utexas edu requirements x olit or motif or athena widgets notes formerly called xftp compiles under at least ultrix aix aix convex os sunos unicos and irix uses olit bug can also use osf motif and athena widgets free olvwm open look virtual window manager contact scott oaks ftp export lcs mit edu in the contrib directory patches there are two patches requirements xview description olvwm is a version of olwm that manages a virtual desktop hence the v in its name it shows a little map on the screen with the currently displayed area represented by a little rectangle you can move around by dragging the rectangle or with the arrow keys this lets you run several clients applications and move the display around from one to the other olvwm was derived from the openwindows olwm free ftptool open look front end to ftp requirements xview ftp export lcs mit edu in contrib free hyperlook contact the turing institute requirements openwindows running the xnews server not x hypertext package written entirely in news runtime from turing com in pub or ftp uu net graphics news hyperlook runtime tar z maestro ftp from sioux stanford edu multimedia authoring tools including support for sound text video xvnews ftp from export lcs mit edu an xview based newsreader for netnews free xvttool ftp cs dal ca pub comp archives ftp nuri inria fr x contrib clients ftp lth se pub netnews alt sources volume dec xvttool z ftp src doc ic ac uk usenet comp archives x terminal xvttool description a vt emulator in both xview and sunview versions includes buttons for the pf keys etc subject postscript and graphics viewers commercial pageview postscript previewer contact included in openwindows as part of deskset notes type support only in openwindows under solaris antialiasing support with colour openwindows try pageview aa dpi note that pageview uses the x news server to interpret the postscript and thus won t run on an x terminal or other non openwindows server it s not enough to be runing an open look ui tm window manager such as olwm commercial xps postscript program editor and previewer contact included with openwindows under demo and share src notes only runs under openwindows commercial psh contact included with openwindows simple interface to news and the openwindows server free ralpage ftp export lcs mit edu in contrib clients notes crispin goswell s postscript interpreter much hacked not open look compliant no type font support there are other versions of this called xps postscript etc don t confuse this xps with the one mentioned above free ghostscript from the free software foundation supports type fonts not open look based subject tools terminal emulators free cmdtool shelltool requirements xview toolkit notes these are included in the xview source distribution from export lcs mit edu in contrib they re also included with sun s openwindows commercial switchterm contact micro resources inc columnbus ohio usa notes a version of xterm with an open look ui print interface ansi x colour escape sequences etc commercial isoterm contact the bristol group ltd and germany requirements openwindows other products isotex isofax power base notes an olit based terminal emulator i couldn t get the demo version to give me a shell prompt although it did look like it was a pretty fll vt emulation with double height characters colour fonts grahics and so forth with the union flag the british flag as their logo i somehow expected an english address perhaps in bristol subject other commercial applications contact sunsoft or sun and ask for the catalyst open look guide which lists over pages of applications you can also get the free cdware cd rom which contains demo versions of several popular open look ui applications once you ve done this you can often simply contact the vendor concerned to have the license upgraded from demo and receive the full product documentation product name author editor sgml based text editor word processor company name softquad inc mail sq com description word processor or text editor that manipulates iso sgml documents interfaces open look ui xview osf motif mac ms windows subject applications toolkit extensions product name xtra xwidgets company name graphical software technology e mail info gst com phone fax keywords graphics library widgets spreadsheet help interfaces open look motif platforms sparc hp s ibm rs interactive requirements x xt xol or xm libraries and headers x price single user network source support price calls source available yes description the xtra xwidget library contains a set of widgets that are subclassed from and compatible with either olit or motif widgets the library includes widgets that implement the following spreadsheet bar graph stacked bar graph line graph pie chart xy plot hypertext hypertext based help system and data entry form widgets have been successfully integrated with both teleuse from telesoft and builder xcessory from ics a free demo is available for any of the supported platforms product name xrt graph company name kl group e mail sun com suncan klg info info klg com phone description xrt graph is a graph object that extends the xview toolkit there are also xt versions for olit and motif xrt graph supports line plots scatter plots strip charts bar charts stacking bar charts pie charts and filled area charts singly and in combination it supports real time updates true postscript output and intelligent user feedback it comes with builder a graph prototyping tool which supports code resource file generation a free demo vmgraph is available there are free integration kits for uim x teleuse and builder xcessory others in progress availability xrt graph for xview and olit are only available on sparc xrt graph for motif is available on a dozen or so platforms free slingshot xview extension slingshot provides rectangles like the xt intrinsics rectobj gadget drag and drop support images icons and text trees lines arrows get it by ftp from export lcs mit edu in contrib slingshot tar z remember to use binary mode in ftp you can also get it by sending mail to archive server gazooch eng sun com with the body of each message containing a line like send sspkg part part going up to send sspkg part part send sspkg docpart docpart docpart send sspkg docpart docpart docpart you can ask for one file at a time to reduce the impact on intermediate mail sites ask the mail server for help with the subject line help a human can be reached at archive manager gazooch eng sun com add a line in the message path your mail address if you think the normal automatic reply address might not work ada bindings for xview sun ada includes among other things an ada source code generator for devguide it uses the verdix xview ada bindings it does not yet july support gfm the guide file manager c bindings for xview qualix s xv uit subject openwindows ports sun sparc sunos sun sparc solaris actually others none so far there are said by sun to be two or three ports of openwindows either available now or in progress contact anthony flynn at open vistas international anthony ovi com for more information originally they said but perhaps they meant openwindows source is available commercially it costs about for the server including typescaler and the toolkits deskset filemgr etc is another tooltalk is or so subject xview ports what xview system apple a ux porter lmj uncompaghre jax org lou jones ftp encyclo jax org notes the libraries and utilities olwm cmdtool etc are available for anonymous ftp from encyclo jax org i used gcc to compile the sources if there is enough interest i can make the diffs available system concurrent based porter sinan mtesol boeing com sinan karasu system decstation ultrix porter dscott ittc wec com dave scott ftp media lab media mit edu ftp xview ultrix mips tar z notes let me stress that this is not fully tested but seems to work pretty well please let me know about any problems you find problems i already know about large buttons under any non sun x server non xnews i e any standard mit x r server have the bottom of the button chopped off we re working on this one xview is also available on the dec freeware cd from decus actually this seems not to be dave scott s port please accept my apologies for listing this incorrectly a correct entry will appear as soon as i get the necessary information lee system hp porter ftp tesla ucd ie pub notes includes hp build hp xview patch file xvgr system hp series porter tjc ecs soton ac uk tim chown system hp xx series ftp ftp csc liv ac uk hpux x xview part tar z system intel sysvr i porter dawes physics su oz au david dawes ftp ftp physics su oz au suphys physics su oz au esix x r hierarchy notes his patches were for esix but should work on dell isc and intel svr with no worries the files are readme xview and xview diff z see also linux system ibm rs porter tmcconne sedona intel com tom mcconnell compiler bsdcc ftp export lcs mit edu contrib xview fixes xview rs k unofficial patch z notes there is still a problem with tty support for the rs for instance the cmdtool will not work still most everything else works for those of you who have already installed my previous patch i have put a separate patch for just the shared library problem this file is contrib xview fixes xview rs k xview lib patch z system linux porter kenneth osterberg lmfken lmf ericsson se icompiler gcc libc ftp tsx mit edu pub linux binaries usr bin x xview l ftp sunsite unc edu notes inlcudes olvwm uit system sgi porter rainer sinkwitz sinkwitz ifi unizh ch ftp export lcs mit edu contrib xview fixes xview sgi unofficial patch tar z notes system solbourne series porter tmcconne sedona intel com tom mcconnell subject xview ports in general there is no point in using xview if you have xview available it s a good idea to look for an xview port first moving from xview to xview is usually simply a matter of recompiling unless you ve done dirty tricks or used undocumented calls system stellar gs stardent and stardent porter arvai scripps edu andy arvai ftp perutz scripps edu in the pub xview directory notes stardent is now kubota pacific kpc system harris nighthawk system cx ux unix porter andy harris nl andy warner status commercial system sgi iris porter ftp wuarchive wustl edu graphics graphics sgi stuff xview xview system vax vms porter tgv inc notes steven fenger svfenge afterlife ncsc mil wrote a company called tgv makes a product called xview for vms they made xview libraries i haven t seen them advertising xview libraries yet subject games free and commercial commercial aviator flight simulator for gx equipped sparcstations contact artificial horizons inc aviator interest ahi com requirements openwindows or sunos or later sparc gx or gxplus free hexsweeper minesweeper game based on hexagons contact lee sq com include hexsweeper in subject requirements openwindows or later toolkit tnt free free sidtool pacman game ftp ftp uu net usenet comp sources games volume sidtool an open look pacman tm surrogate that appears as a debugger the bad guys are code bugs that move around your screen you the good guy chase them with a monitor that eats bugs commercial simcity contact dux software los altos ca price us requirements openwindows uses news doesn t run on a with cg free spider included in openwindows under demo and share src a patience style card game with two packs of cards and excellent bitmap cards i suggest recompiling to allow the cards to have rounded edges free xblackjack ftp from export lcs mi edu as contrib xblackjack tar z a motif olit based tool constructed to get you ready for the casino liam quin manager of contracting softquad inc lee sq com open look ui faq metafont list hexsweeper news game lq text text retrieval
comp.windows.x	comp windows x getting more performance out of x faq archive name x faq speedups last modified how to maximize the performance of x monthly posting compiled by art mulder art cs ualberta ca more ram faster cpu s more disk space faster ethernet these are the standard responses you hear when you ask how to improve the performance of your workstation well more hardware isn t always an option and i wonder if more hardware is always even a necessity this faq list is a collection of suggestions and ideas from different people on the net on how you can the best possible performance from x windows on your workstation without purchasing more hardware performance is a highly subjective issue the individual user must balance speed versus features in order to come to a personal decision therefore this document can be be expected to contain many subjective opinions in and amongst the objective facts this document is specifically concerned with x there are of course many other factors that can affect the performance of a workstation however they are outside the scope of this document people seriously interested in the whole area of system performance might want to look at the o reilly nutshell handbook system performance tuning by mike loukides imho it contains a well written comprehensive treatment of system performance i m unaware of any other similar books ed table of contents introduction administrivia what about the other x faq window managers the x server which server locking the server into ram starting your server fonts about the resources file define your display properly clients a better clock for x a better terminal emulator for x tuning your client miscellaneous suggestions pretty pictures a quicker mouse programming thoughts say what other sources of information author notes changed since last issue new since last issue introduction administrivia this document is posted each month on or around the th to the usenet news groups comp windows x news answers and comp answers if you are reading a copy of this faq which is more than a few months old see the last modified date above you should probably locate the latest edition since the information may be outdated if you do not know how to get those newsgroups and or your site does not receive them and or this article has already expired you can retrieve this faq from an archive site there exist several usenet faq archive sites to find out more about them and how to access them please see the introduction to the news answers newsgroup posting in news answers the main faq archive is at rtfm mit edu this document can be found there in pub usenet news answers x faq speedups if you do not have access to anonymous ftp you can retrieve it by sending a mail message to mail server rtfm mit edu with the command send usenet news answers x faq speedups in the message body what about the other x faq david b lewis faq craft uunet uu net maintains the informative and well written comp windows x frequently asked questions document its focus is on general x information while this faq concentrates on performance the comp windows x faq does address the issue of speed but only with regards to the x server the gist of that topic seems to be use x r it is faster than r please see the x faq for complete details window managers there are a lot of window managers out there with lots of different features and abilities the choice of which to use is by necessity a balancing act between performance and useful features at this point most respondents have agreed upon twm as the best candidate for a speedy window manager a couple of generic tricks you can try to soup up your window manger is turning off unnecessary things like zooming and opaque move also if you lay out your windows in a tiled manner you reduce the amount of cpu power spent in raising and lowering overlapping windows joe english joe trystero art com i ve found that a good font for tiling is x aka misc fixed medium r normal c iso it is the biggest font i know of that i can use on my sun x screen and still get two column terminal windows side by side on the display with no overlap other font suggestions will be accepted the x server which server make sure that your server is a proper match for your hardware if you have a monochrome monitor use a monochrome x server on my monochrome sun i haven t noticed much difference between the xsun colour server and xsunmono however it was pointed out to me that xsunmono is about k smaller and therefore should contribute to less paging thanks to jonny farringdon j farringdon psychol ucl ac uk michael salmon michael salmon eos ericsson se how your server was compiled can also make a difference jeff law law schirf cs utah edu advises us that on a sun system x should be compiled with gcc version or with the unbundled sun compiler you can expect to get very large speedups in the server by not using the bundled sunos compiler i assume that similar results would occur if you used one of the other high quality commercial compilers on the market locking the server into ram has anyone tried hacking the x server so that it is locked into ram and does not get paged eg via a call to plock does this help performance at all i ve had one inquiry on this topic and a few pointers to the plock function call but no hard evidence from someone who s tried it i am not in a position to give it a try thanks to eric c claeys ecc eperm att com danny backx db sunbim be juan d martin juando cnm us es starting your server joe english joe trystero art com if you start up a lot of clients in your xsession or whatever sleep for a second or two after launching each one after i changed my xclients script to do this logging in actually took less time we have a heavily loaded system without much core though this sounds crazy but i have confirmed that it works warner losh imp solbourne com provided me with a good explanation of why this works which i have summarized here when you start up an x server it takes a huge amount of time to start accepting connections a lot of initialization is done by the server when it starts this process touches a large number of pages any other process running at the same time would fight the server for use of the cpu and more importantly memory if you put a sleep in there you give the server a chance to get itself sorted out before the clients start up similarly there is also a lot of initialization whenever an x client program starts toolkits registering widgets resources being fetched programs initializing state and databases and so forth all this activity is typically memory intensive once this initialization is done the process has reached a steady state the memory usage typically settles down to using only a few pages by using sleeps to stagger the launching of your clients in your xinitrc you avoid them fighting each other for your workstation s limited resources this is most definitely a your mileage may vary situation as there are so many variables to be considered available ram local swap space load average number of users on your system which clients you are starting etc currently in my xinitrc i have a situation like sleep exec xclock sleep exec xbiff sleep exec xterm sleep exec xterm i ve experimented with sleep exec xclock sleep exec xbiff sleep exec xterm sleep exec xterm i ve even tried sleep exec start x clients script and then in start x clients script i had sleep exec xclock sleep exec xbiff sleep exec xterm sleep exec xterm the idea with this last one was to make sure that xinit had completely finished processing my xinitrc and had settled down into a steady state before the sleep expired and all my clients were launched all of these yielded fairly comparable results and so i just stuck with my current setup for its simplicity you will probably have to experiment a bit to find a setup which suits you fonts loading fonts takes time and ram if you minimize the number of fonts your applications use you ll get speed increases in load up time one simple strategy is to choose a small number of fonts one small one large one roman whatever suits you and configure all your clients or at least all your heavily used clients to use only those few fonts client programs should start up quicker if their font is already loaded into the server this will also conserve server resources since fewer fonts will be loaded by the server farrell mckay fbm ptcburp ptcbu oz au joe english joe trystero art com eg my main xterm font is x so i also have twm set up to use x in all it s menus and icons etc twm s default font is x since i don t normally use x i ve eliminated one font from my server oliver jones oj roadrunner pictel com keep fonts local to the workstation rather than loading them over nfs if you will make extensive use of r scalable fonts use a font server about the resources file keep your xresources xdefaults file small saves ram and saves on server startup time joe english joe trystero art com one suggestion in your xdefaults xresources file try putting only the minimum number of resources that you want to have available to all of your applications for example reversevideo true then separate your resources into individual client specific resource files for example home lib app defaults in your login file set the environment variable xuserfilesearchpath setenv xuserfilesearchpath home lib app defaults n the comp windows x frequently asked questions faq contains an excellent explanation of how these environment variables work ed so when xterm launches it loads its resources from app defaults xterm xdvi finds them in app defaults xdvi and so on and so forth note that not all clients follow the same xxxxx resource file naming pattern you can check in your system app defaults directory often usr x r lib x app defaults to find the proper name and then name your personal resource files with the same name this is all documented in the xt specification pg thanks to kevin samborn samborn mtkgc com michael urban urban cobra jpl nasa gov and mike long mikel ee cornell edu kevin is willing mail his setup files to inquirers this method of organizing your personal resources has the following benefits easier to maintain more usable fewer resources are stored in the x server in the resource manager property as a side benefit your server may start fractionally quicker since it doesn t have to load all your resources applications only process their own resources never have to sort through all of your resources to find the ones that affect them it also has drawbacks the application that you are interested in has to load an additional file every time it starts up this doesn t seem to make that much of a performance difference and you might consider this a huge boon to usability if you are modifying an application s resource database you just need to re run the application without having to xrdb again xrdb will by default run your xdefaults file through cpp when your resources are split out into multiple resource files and then loaded by the individual client programs they will not watch out for this i had c style comments in my xdefaults file which cpp stripped out when i switched to this method of distributed resource files i spent several frustrating days trying to figure out why my clients were not finding their resources xt did not provide any error message when it encountered the c style comments in the resource files it simply silently aborted processing the resource file the loss of preprocessing which can be very handy e g ifdef color is enough to cause some people to dismiss this method of resource management you may also run into some clients which break the rules for example neither emacs nor xvt will find their resources if they are anywhere other than in xdefaults when starting up a client on a machine that does not share files with the machine where your resources are stored your client will not find its resources loading all your resources into the server will guarantee that all of your clients will always find their resources casey leedom casey gauss llnl gov a possible compromise suggestion that i have and am planning on trying is to put resources for all my heavily used clients eg xterm into my xdefaults file and to use the separate resources files method for clients that i seldom use define your display properly client programs are often executed on the same machine as the server in that situation rather than setting your display environment variable to hostname where hostname is the name of your workstation you should set your display variable to unix or by doing this you access optimized routines that know that the server is on the same machine and use a shared memory method of transferring requests thanks to patrick j horgan pjh ras amdahl com see the display names section of the x man page for further explanation of how to properly set your display name i don t think it s stock mit but at least data general and hp have libraries that are smart enough to use local communication even when the display isn t set specially rob sartin opensi sartin uunet uu net jody goldberg jody algorithmics com sent me an xlib patch to change stock r to use local communication even if display is not properly set i don t want to get in the business of distributing or trying to juggle non mit patches and so have elected not to include it here hopefully mit will apply this minor lines patch themselves in the meantime if you want to try it yourself email jody ed clients if you only have a few megabytes of ram then you should think carefully about the number of programs you are running think also about the kind of programs you are running for example is there a smaller clock program than xclock unfortunately i haven t really noticed that programs advertise how large they are so the onus is on us to do the research and spread the word suggestions on better alternatives to the some of the standard clients eg xclock xterm xbiff are welcome ed i ve received some contradictory advice from people on the subject of x client programs some advocate the use of programs that are strictly xlib based since xt xaw and other toolkits are rather large others warn us that other applications which you are using may have already loaded up one or more of these shared libraries in this case using a non xt for example client program may actually increase the amount of ram consumed the upshot of all this seems to be don t mix toolkits that is try and use just athena clients or just xview clients or just motif clients etc if you use more than one then you re dragging in more than one toolkit library know your environment and think carefully about which client programs would work best together in that environment thanks to rob sartin opensi sartin uunet uu net duncan sinclair sinclair dcs gla ac uk sinclair uk ac gla dcs a better clock for x xcuckoo suggested by duncan sinclair sinclair dcs gla ac uk available on export lcs mit edu xcuckoo displays a clock in the title bar of another program saves screen real estate mclock suggested by der mouse mouse lightning mcrcim mcgill edu available larry mcrcim mcgill edu in x mclock shar non xt based extensively configurable it can be made to look very much like mit oclock or mostly like xclock purely by changing resources of course the ultimate clock one that consumes no resources and takes up no screen real estate is the one that hangs on your wall a better terminal emulator for x from the readme file distributed with xterm abandon all hope ye who enter here this is undoubtedly the most ugly program in the distribution ugly maybe but at my site it s still the most used i suspect that xterm is one of the most used clients at many if not most sites laziness isn t there a better terminal emulator available see below if you must use xterm you can try reducing the number of savelines to reduce memory usage oliver jones oj roadrunner pictel com jonny farringdon j farringdon psychol ucl ac uk xvt suggested by richard hesketh rlh ukc ac uk available export lcs mit edu in contrib xvt tar z if you don t need all the esoteric features of xterm then get hold of xvt it was written here just to save swap space as xterm is rather a hog this was written as a partial clone of xterm you don t have to rename your resources as xvt pretends to be xterm in it s current version you cannot bind keys as you can in xterm i ve heard that there are versions of xvt with this feature but i ve not found any yet update march i recently had a few email conversations with brian warkentin brian warkentine eng sun com regarding xvt he questions whether xvt really is at all faster than xterm for instance xvt may initialize slightly faster but compare scrolling speed try this quickie benchmark bin time dd if etc termcap bs and see which program can scroll faster also while xterm may be slightly larger in ram requirements we don t have any hard numbers here does anyone else shared libraries and shared text segments mean that xterm s paging requirements are not that major as an experiment he ripped out all the tek stuff from xterm but it made little difference since if you never use it it never gets brought into memory so here we stand with some conflicting reports on the validity of xvt over xterm in summary caveat emptor your mileage may vary if you can provide some hard data i d like to see it specifically how much ram each occupies how much swap each needs relative speed of each mterm suggested by der mouse mouse lightning mcrcim mcgill edu available larry mcrcim mcgill edu in x mterm src mterm ball o wax i also have my own terminal emulator its major lack is scrollback but some people like it anyway tuning your client suggestions on how you can tune your client programs to work faster from scott barman scott asd com comes a suggestion regarding motif text field widgets i noticed that during data entry into motif text field widgets i was getting a slight lag in response to some keystrokes particularly the initial one in the field examining the what was going on with xscope i found it it seems that when the resource xmnblinkrate is non zero and the focus is on a text field widget or even just a text widget the i beam cursor will blink every time the cursor appears or disappears in those widgets the widget code is making a request to the server copyarea the user can stop this by setting the resource xmnblinkrate to it is not noticeable on a mhz sparc but it does make a little difference on a slower system this specific suggestion can probably be applied in general to lots of areas consider your heavily used clients are there any minor embellishments that can be turned off and thereby save on server requests miscellaneous suggestions pretty pictures don t use large bitmaps gif s etc as root window backgrounds the more complicated your root window bitmap the slower the server is at redrawing your screen when you reposition windows or redraw etc these take up ram and cpu power i work on a sun sparc and i m conscious of performance issues i can t comprehend it when i see people with a mb sun running xphoon as their root window i ll let someone else figure out how much ram would be occupied by having a full screen root image on a colour workstation if you re anything like me you need all the screen real estate that you can get for clients and so rarely see the root window anyway thanks to qiang alex zhao azhao cs arizona edu for reminding me of this one ed a quicker mouse using xset you can adjust how fast your pointer moves on the screen when you move your mouse i use xset m in my xinitrc file which lets me send my pointer across the screen with just a flick of the wrist see the xset man page for further ideas and information hint sometimes you may want to slow down your mouse tracking for fine work to cover my options i have placed a number of different mouse setting commands into a menu in my window manager e g for twm menu mouse settings mouse settings f title very fast xset m normal fast xset m system default un accelerated xset m default glacial xset m programming thoughts joe english joe trystero art com to speed up applications that you re developing there are tons of things you can do some that stick out for motif programs don t set xmfontlist resources for individual buttons labels lists et al use the defaultfontlist or labelfontlist or whatever resource of the highest level manager widget again stick to as few fonts as possible better yet don t use motif at all it s an absolute pig don t create and destroy widgets on the fly try to reuse them this will avoid many problems with buggy toolkits too use a line width of in gcs on some servers this makes a huge difference compress and collapse multiple expose events this can make the difference between a fast application and a completely unusable one francois staes frans kiwi uia ac be just a small remark i once heard that using a better malloc function would greatly increase performance of xt based applications since they use malloc heavily they suggested trying out the gnuy malloc but i didn t find the time yet i did some tests on small programs just doing malloc and free and the differences were indeed very noticeable somewhat times faster any confirmation on this from anyone ed andre beck andre beck irs inf tu dresden de unnecessary noexpose events most people use xcopyarea xcopyplane as fastest blit routines but they forget to reset graphics exposures in the gc used for the blits this will cause a noexpose event every blit that in most cases only puts load onto the connection and forces the client to run through it s event loop again and again thousands of xchangegc requests this gfx context switching is also seen in most handcoded x apps where only one or few gcs are created and then heavily changed again and again xt uses a definitely better mechanism by caching and sharing a lot of gcs with all needed parameters this will remove the load of subsequent xchangegc requests from the connection by moving it toward the client startup phase say what some contributors proposed ideas that seem right off the wall at first david b lewis by day dbl osf org by night david craft uunet uu net how about this swap displays with someone else run all your programs on the other machine and display locally the other user runs off your machine onto the other display goal reduce context switches in the same operation between client and server i m not in a situation where i can easily try this but i have received the following confirmation michael salmon michael salmon eos ericsson se i regularly run programs on other machines and i notice a big difference i try to run on a machine where i will reduce net usage and usually with nice to reduce the impact of my intrusion this helps a lot on my poor little ss with only mb it was essential when i only had mb casey leedom casey gauss llnl gov the x server and the client are competing for the same cpu as your server when you run it on the same machine not really a major problem except that the x client and the server are in absolute synchronicity and are context thrashing timothy h panton thp westhawk uucp firstly it relies on the fact that most cpu s are mostly idle x s cpu usage is bursty so the chances of you and your teammate doing something cpu intensive at the same time is small if they are not then you get twice the cpu memory available for your action the second factor is that context switches are expensive using cpu s halves them you pay a price due to the overhead of going over the network but this is offset in most cases by the improved buffering of a network typically k vs k for a pipe allowing even fewer context switches other sources of information volume in o reilly s x window system series x window system administrator s guide is a book all x administrator s should read adrian nye adrian ora com a lot more tips on performance are in the paper improving x application performance by chris d peterson and sharon chang in issue of the x resource an earlier version of this paper appeared in the xhibition conference proceedings this paper is absolutely essential reading for x programmers author notes this list is currently maintained by art mulder art cs ualberta ca suggestions corrections or submission for inclusion in this list are gladly accepted layout suggestions and comments spelling mistak s too are also welcome currently i have listed all contributors of the various comments and suggestions if you do not want to be credited please tell me speedup x faq is copyright c by arthur e mulder you may copy this document in whole or in part as long as you don t try to make money off it or pretend that you wrote it art mulder art cs ualberta ca do not be conformed to this world department of computing science but be transformed by the renewal university of alberta edmonton canada of your mind romans
comp.windows.x	re resource widget toolkit required for x windows applications in article sijn mi werple apana org au jamie zikzak jamie scuglia writes does anyone know of any public domain toolkits for creating x windows applications i have used the xt toolkit but i would like to create pop up windows dialog boxes etc using some sort of drawing editor instead of trying to specify what i want sizes positions etc within actual source code basically i am looking for something similar to borland s whitewater resource toolkit for ms windows expect i need one for x windows instead any help would be much appreciated i recently found an excellent source for x windows programs i ve seen quite a few x windows toolkits up there the place is export lcs mit edu go to the contrib directory its full of x windows programs hope this helps
comp.windows.x	installing xdbx v on sgi did anyone install xdbx v on sgi workstation thanks for your answer gildas perrot gildas perrot associe de recherche ecole polytechnique institut de genie biomedical c p succ a e mail perrot grbb polymtl ca montreal h c a canada tel fax
comp.windows.x	re viewing postscript files under x windows in c tgoj j inmet camb inmet com gjs corsica camb inmet com george snyder writes in article sk rinnptb polaris isi com kin isi com kin cho writes i wonder if anybody know of a x window based postscript file viewer that runs under sunos prefered hpux or ibm aix if you are running sun openwindows you can use pageview this is an x window postscript previewer like ghostview but displays much nicer yes but it s broken on ow it does not handle multiple pages well if you don t have the proper postscript commands it will draw the entire document on the same page instead of pausing after each page i haven t tried ow yet though v v v v v v v gordon t sasamori hc csic mcu design email gordons ai sps mot com nippon motorola ltd voice fax
comp.windows.x	re xfig pl on hp ux in article sp c t elroy jpl nasa gov urban sideshow michael p urban writes i have compiled xfig patchlevel with hp s x r from hp ux augmented by the athena and mu libraries from an x r distribution from iworks ecn uiowa edu it compiles nicely although for one file the preprocessor macro definition table size needed to be increased but when executed nothing happens at all except for ever growing memory requirements eventually climaxing in a core dump the binary of the identical program compiled on with x r has no problems other programs like xtpanel compile link and run just fine with the same libraries does this sound familiar or am i going to have to figure this one out on my own please see the post i made yesterday may which fixes the problem this was posted to comp windows x apps brian v smith bvsmith lbl gov lawrence berkeley laboratory i don t speak for lbl they don t pay me enough for that
comp.windows.x	x r on aix using cc i have gotten x r pl to compile on aix using cc but the server will not run it simplys starts and a couple seconds later exits no error are displayed my defines for compile are dsysv daixv dsysv wait dmalloc returns null could somewhere share some light or maybe the ibm cf file thanks malcolm c strickland martin marietta missile systems chuck strickland orl mmc com mail point phone pobox fax orlando florida
comp.windows.x	uimx a motif application generator i am looking of information regarding uimx i believe this is an application front end generator tool for motif among others whould someone given me a contact i need to get hold of the programmers guide or something like it paul mahoney x act solutions limited smail shipley lane cooden bexhill on sea east sussex tn sr email ptm xact demon co uk pmahoney cix compulink co uk phone
comp.windows.x	some rookie questions im new to xlib programming im having a problem i hope someone here can help me with i create a window and i want it to have some background color say red and draw an oval in it further when i resize the window i want to be able to redraw the image so that is fills the new window whether it is larger or smaller im using aixwindows on an rs my problem is this when i resize the window only the original part of the window that was part of the window creation gets drawn into everything else is a grey the oval tries to redraw itself but gets clipped i can see that it would be the right size if i could see all of it but it only shows up in the region that was the original size of the window when created for example i start out the window at x in width and height if i resize it to x the only part that has any color drawn into it is is from the origin out to x the rest is grey further the oval only shows up in that x area what am i doing wrong how can i get a window to resize and redraw a re scaled image in it to take up the full size of the window second question could someone tell me what xaw and xmu are thanks chris
comp.windows.x	o reilly x adobe p script sun openlook books cheap i have some brand new copies of the following books for sale some are down rev don t know which or by how much look to of pages copyright date etc for clues postscript language reference manual adobe sys inc addison wesley copyr printed pages postscript language tutorial and cookbook as above pages i ll sell the above two books as a set for postage paid w in us openlook gui functional specification sun micro addison w copyr pages openlook gui application style guidelines pages i ll sell the above two books as a set for ppd w in us o reilly associates definitive guides to the x window system copyr for version revised and updated for release vol x protocol reference manual pages vol xlib programming manual pages vol xlib reference manual pages vol xview programming manual pages i ll sell the above four books as a set for ppd w in us due to the high hassle ratio i am asking for pre payment by check i ll be queing cashing packing and shipping so be prepared to wait weeks for your books to show up if you d like to pick them up i live in san francisco same prices though e mail me if you are interested thanks cornhead
comp.windows.x	printing xbm files hi does anyone know of a direct way to print an image of an xbm file please reply directly and i ll post a summary any opinion presented here is my own and does not reflect the policy of my employer nasa or the ames research center roger smith sterling software at nasa ames research center rsmith proteus arc nasa gov if change is inevitable predictable beneficial doesn t logic demand that you be a part of it one man cannot summon the future but one man can change the present kirk and the alternate spock mirror mirror stardate unknown
comp.windows.x	windows mfc motif tools sought i am looking for info on products that can take windows source on a unix box such as sparc and produce a motif executable another requirement is that mfc should be supported i already know of wind u by bristol technologies hunter sdk mainwin by mainsoft are there any others i will post a summary if it s wanted daniel dls autodesk com dls netcom com daniel l smith autodesk sausalito california x disclaimer accuracy of statements corrrelates somehow to caffeine intake
comp.windows.x	re scientific graphing looking for run time library in may serval net wsu edu d e bucky pnl gov je pelkey writes in article c iem xi hawnews watson ibm com artg watson ibm com art goldberg writes x gurus i am looking for a scientific graphing run time x library i want my code to open a window and plot a graph in the window the library should manage plotting scaling of axes labeling etc can someone recommend a library to do this please respond via e mail i would also be interested in this information check into the vopl and vogle libraries i beleive that i still have them available on ftp c mols siu edu but i m not sure i haven t seen any new announcements for the software but i m sure it s still around i have used it to do real time data display and analysis as well as just for producing graphs after the fact it works well and supports numerous graphics output formats including x i tried it and liked it you may as well dan ellison network spec computing affairs siu c southern illinois university carbondale il fax phone
comp.windows.x	help wanted display stereo images with a gt accelerator hi friends our sparc workstation is now equippied with a gt accelerator we want to use it to display stereo images the accelerator has double buffers how can we access the buffers and switch between them with which functions can we do that with functions from xgl phigs xlib or xlib extension your help will be highly appreciated yonglong xu uni of hannover
comp.windows.x	scaling fonts in x x motif gurus how do you handling scaling of x text while performing zooming operations on figures is restricting user to select scalable fonts too restrictive and a absolute no no any books that have discussion on this topic should have really taken more of those computer graphics courses but now its too late i will summarize response thanks in advance subodh smn netcom com
comp.windows.x	re remote x across tcpip decnet does anyone know if the following is possible and if so how do i go about doing it i want to be able to display remote x applications on a vaxstation off of an internet node here is where the problem comes up the vaxstation isn t connected directly to the internet but is connected via decnet to a node that does have a connection to the internet does anyone know if it is possible to get the display to use tcpip from the remote internet node down to my local internet node and then send it via decnet down to the vaxstation for the machine that is connected to the internet what is it running if it is running vms then if you obtain multinet for it multinet comes with a tcp ip to decnet gateway for x patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking a person unnecessarily should not be considered lazarus long a capital crime for a first offense that is from the notebooks of lazarus long
comp.windows.x	looking for x windows on a pc hi all this is the first time i ve posted to the net so i hope this is going to the right people i m looking for software packages that run on an ibm pc clone that allows me to display openlook and motif windows on the pc the idea is to use the pc as a cheap x windows terminal for use by process engineers at work if anyone can e mail me any recommended packages horror stories etc i would be greatful thanks in advance mark wilkinson mark wilkinson e mail wilkinson m roborough gpsemi com senior software engineer markwilk lincoln gpsemi com gec plessey semiconductors roborough plymouth england
comp.windows.x	xrastool part well thanks largely to subscribers of this group here s xrastool the animation package i started just over weeks ago a number of the solutions provided through discussions here have been incorporated in the code so have a look the full blurb has been posted to comp windows x announce this post is in two parts to unpack the source code extract the articles into file and file for example use a text editor to remove leading and trailing text at the cut here markers including the markers themselves next type cat file file file then uudecode file and zcat xrastool tar z tar xvf read the readme file for instructions on how to proceed from there enjoy derek p s the source is also available for anon ftp from export lcs mit edu in the contrib directory if there is enough demand a static binary will be provided for those without the xview libraries or include files derek c richardson tel x institute of astronomy fax cambridge u k cb ha e mail dcr mail ast cam ac uk
comp.windows.x	x and motif config file for hp ux hello everybody out there i m trying to compile x r pl and motif on a hp running hp ux but it seems to be not very succesful because i have only hp cf config files for hp ux i tried standard cc and x was compiled with a lot of warnings the motif applications are compiled quite well but they won t run i receive the xkeysymdb error which is reported in faq but i cannot fix it the xkeysymdb file is at the right location and it works fine under sunos probably i have started the compilation prozess only with a wrong config file please help me thanx in advance markus markus koch universitaet gh paderborn email raistlin uni paderborn de rechnerbetreuung phone warburger str w paderborn germany markus koch universitaet gh paderborn email raistlin uni paderborn de warburger str phone w paderborn germany
comp.windows.x	public domain or low price case for rs we are looking for a public domain or low price case running on aix and or solaris and or sun os for x motif and or x openlook i m not a regular follower of these groups so i would prefer an answer to this e mail thanks in advance regards osvaldo osvaldo gervasi centro di calcolo universita degli studi di perugia piazza universita i perugia
comp.windows.x	painting with increasing resolution some people working a few cubes over have come up with this need and it seems that someone out there just might have done it already and can point me to some tools that would help what they d like to do is given a window that is taking a long time to draw because either the data is arriving over a slow link or the display is across a slow link they would like to first paint a low resolution version of the picture and then repaint it in higher resolution thus the picture might first be generated in resolution with each x square of pixels being filled in with a single color next each x square would be replaced by x squares finally the x version would be painted since one of the scenarios is with the window being on the other side of a slow link the low res version obviously wouldn t be transmitted as a bitmap that wouldn t help at all instead there would have to be a process on the far end that receives the low res picture as a small bitmap and blows up each pixel into a square sorta like the magnifier programs do this brings up the question of whether the x server can help that is when a window is opened is there a way to ask that a filter program be run to process the pixels or is the only way to use something like rsh to start up a remote process permission denied and have it open a local window it seems the most likely scenario is a library routine that starts up such a program remotely and then accepts bitmaps compressing each one by some amount and sending them to the remote program to expand but if there is something that x itself can do to help it s be nice to hear about it i looked in several fms but if it s there i obviously don t know the keywords if someone has a nifty tool available that packages it all we might want to get a copy oh yes this is to run on some suns part of the idea is to build demos that can show such things as if this were run across say a bps link this is how fast the pictures would appear then the customer would get a feel for the speed that they need to pay for if the auto industry were like the computer industry a car would now cost would get miles to the gallon and at random times would explode killing all its passengers
comp.windows.x	re x and motif config file for hp ux on may raistlin uni paderborn de markus koch said markus nntp posting host samos uni paderborn de markus hello everybody out there markus i m trying to compile x r pl and motif on a hp running markus hp ux but it seems to be not very succesful because markus i have only hp cf config files for hp ux markus i tried standard cc and x was compiled with a lot of warnings markus the motif applications are compiled quite well but they won t run markus i receive the xkeysymdb error which is reported in faq but markus i cannot fix it the xkeysymdb file is at the right location and it markus works fine under sunos markus probably i have started the compilation prozess only with a wrong markus config file markus please help me markus markus thanx in advance markus markus if you installed x lib xt by redefining projectroot you will find that during the install it recompiles one of the files in x lib that does the search for xkeysmdb and embeds the search path for the file based on whatever projectroot was defined to confirm this what happened because i m guessing go to mit lib x and do strings xstrkeysym o egrep xkeysymdb guy singh ixi internet guy x co uk vision park uucp guy ixi uucp cambridge bang uunet ixi guy cb zr uk tel
comp.windows.x	wordwrap hello everybody does anybody know how to implement wordwrap with use of xdrawimagestring the problem is that i don t know how many characters can be drawn in a region have i to calculate character for character the width of the drawn text thank you in advance o o ooo ooo joerg mainzer internet mainzer darmstadt gmd de german nat research center x net mainzer ipsi darmstadt gmd dbp de for information technology voice dolivostrasse fax w darmstadt germany symptom bar moving fault you are being carried out solution find out if you are being taken to another bar if not complain loudly that you are being hi jacked
comp.windows.x	gc plane mask hi xperts where can i get a good example in which xgcvalues plane mask is used or who can explain how is it for and how to use it any hints welcome thanks rainer hochreiter telephone elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax penzingerstr a wien austria europe e mail rainer elin co at
comp.windows.x	re viewing postscript files under x windows in article sk rinnptb polaris isi com kin isi com kin cho writes i wonder if anybody know of a x window based postscript file viewer that runs under sunos prefered hpux or ibm aix reason i m looking for this utility is that i ve downloaded these large postscript documents and i d like to know how useful and how long they are before commiting them to the printer and potentially wasting pages of paper and hogging the printer for hour get ghostscript and ghostview ghostview is a postscript previewer that uses ghostscript from the ghostview readme ghostview an x user interface for ghostscript ghostview is full function user interface for ghostscript brief list of features ghostview parses any known version of adobe s document structuring conventions page size is automatically determined from the document structuring comments the user is able to override the values from the comments window size is set to the bounding box for encapsulated postscript figures default page size is letter and can be changed via xresources or application defaults file to a or any other valid size for our european friends scrollbars appear when necessary page orientation is automatically determined from the document structuring comments the user is able to override the values from the comments ability to view at orientations portrait landscape upside down and seascape for those who rotate landscape the other direction ability to preview in any supported visual can preview in gray scale or color on a color monitor ability to mark pages for printing or saving good for people that printed a page document and lost page due to a printer jam can popup zoom windows at printer resolution display dot printer dot the ghostview distribution includes a ghostview widget that people are encouraged to use in other programs ghostview is available via anonymous ftp from prep ai mit edu pub gnu ghostview tar z appenzell cs wisc edu pub ghostview tar z from the ghostscript readme this file describes version of ghostscript an overview of ghostscript ghostscript is the name of a set of software that provides an interpreter for the ghostscript language which very closely resembles the postscript tm language and a set of c procedures the ghostscript library that implement the graphics capabilities that appear as primitive operations in the ghostscript language the ghostscript language interpreter and library are written entirely in c with some assembly language accelerators for ms dos platforms currently ghostscript is known to run on the following platform families ibm pc and compatibles with ega vga supervga or compatible graphics under ms dos or a wide variety of unix systems using x windows version release and including sun sun sun i sun sparcstation generic machines running ix h p and decstation and vax running ultrix sequent symmetry convex c and c tektronix sgi iris indigo sun workstations sun sparc sun i running sunview vax vms with x r gcc and dec c compiler dec c compiler version or later is required get ghostscript from the same ftp site you get ghostview tim williams com night vision electronic sensors directorate dsn amsel rd nv vispd williams fax ft belvoir va e mail williams nvl army mil
comp.windows.x	re fax software in article snoqoinndh darkstar ucsc edu philb cats ucsc edu philip brown writes i d like to know if there is any free fax software for xwindows that i can use i have a sun running mit x r i checked the export lcs mit edu list and there didn t seem to be anything there tea a noxious brew of various oriental leaves containing toxic acids personally i rather like it paraprhased from dr who peter davidson philb cats ucsc edu philb soda berkeley edu check prep ai mit edu it s called fax tar z or something to that effect and is the software for netfax be forewarned that it requires at the moment a fairly costly fax modem with certain capabilities to use it doug hughes system net admin martin marietta aerospace valley forge pa doug happy vf ge com or doug land vf ge com
comp.windows.x	problem with r release ld unidentified external symbol get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass i use lxaw lxmu lxext lx lxt not in this order but in a proper order i am wondering if there has to be some changes in my link libraries or should i include some more libraries any help in this matter will be very useful and highly appreciated thanks pramod
comp.windows.x	re accented characters how i ve been able to configure xterm so that i can type in accented characters i m using x r with iso fonts my shell is tcsh with the following definitions setenv lc ctype iso stty pass then i add the following in my xdefaults file xterm eightbitinput true xterm eightbitoutput true xterm vt translations override meta key keymap aigu n meta key keymap grave n meta key keymap circ n meta key keymap ced xterm vt aigukeymap translations shift key e string xe keymap none n key e string xc keymap none n shift key c string xe n key c string xc xterm vt gravekeymap translations shift key e string xe keymap none n key e string xc keymap none n shift key u string xf keymap none n key u string xd keymap none n shift key a string xe keymap none n key a string xc keymap none xterm vt circkeymap translations shift key e string xea keymap none n key e string xca keymap none n shift key u string xfb keymap none n key u string xdb keymap none n shift key i string xee keymap none n key i string xce keymap none n shift key o string xf keymap none n key o string xd keymap none xterm vt cedkeymap translations shift key c string xe keymap none n key c string xc keymap none this makes the meta keys behave as dead keys of course this only works for xterm for emacs my solution is to install the lucid version of gnuemacs and to load the x compose library hope this helps eric eric dujardin eric dujardin inria fr inria rocquencourt projet rodin les bons gongs font bp le chesnay cedex les bonzes amis tel gotlib
comp.windows.x	pd apps for displaying d data sets the subject line says it all really i m looking for a pd application which will just handle the displaying of d data sets images in cross section or any pointers to code which will aid in the development of such a system thanks in advance keith marlow keith marlow sys p g uea norwich phone cyclone bbs on arc beeb norwich norfolk nr tj pc files fidonet echoes charts acorn archiboard central support area radio info archiboard s w voice tried ms dos once but didn t inhale
comp.windows.x	re looking for x windows on a pc in article c wlij l k bailgate gpsemi com wilkinson m roborough gpsemi com writes hi all this is the first time i ve posted to the net so i hope this is going to the right people i m looking for software packages that run on an ibm pc clone that allows me to display openlook and motif windows on the pc the idea is to use the pc as a cheap x windows terminal for use by process engineers at work may i humbly suggest desqview x of course i m biased desqview x is a multitasker for dos computers that uses a standard x r server as it s display mechanism dos applications and microsoft windows standard mode are converted on the fly to x protocol allowing you to display them or any r compatable x program from any machine on the net to display to the pc s local display or to any other display on the net free tools are available for devloping x applications for the dvx platform many x programs have been ported between dvx and unix with little or no modifications often you only need to create a new makefile if you re interested in more details you can check out the usenet group comp os msdos desqview or just email me directly at support qdeck com and i d be happy to fill you in quarterdeck office systems internet support tom bortels pricing ordering info qdeck com tech questions support qdeck com bbs fax compuserve go quarterdeck anonymous ftp qdeck com leave your email address as password
comp.windows.x	re type rasterizer where in article sofac m zebedee ingres co uk supp ingres com support account writes in article thomas tornblom may beck nexus comm se thomas tornblom nexus comm se thomas tornblom writes i m trying to locate the type rasterizer that ibm donated to the x consortium i ve found patches to it but not the original source it s on the r contrib tape mike glendinning ingres uk mikeg ingres co uk yes i found it there thanks everyone thomas real life thomas t rnblom email thomas tornblom nexus comm se snail mail communicator nexus ab phone box fax s uppsala sweden
comp.windows.x	re looking for x windows on a pc check out a program called pc xview i ve used it before and from what i can tell it s exactly what you re looking for last i checked you should be able to find it for about a copy eric schwarte cs colostate edu of course i m certain heisenberg schwarte lamar colostate edu he hadn t a single redeeming vice where does bob barker go when oscar wilde i watch vanna white wasting time is an important part of living
comp.windows.x	re looking for x windows on a pc markw pspmf gpsemi com mark wilkinson ext writes hi all this is the first time i ve posted to the net so i hope this is going to the right people i m looking for software packages that run on an ibm pc clone that allows me to display openlook and motif windows on the pc the idea is to use the pc as a cheap x windows terminal for use by process engineers at work if you already own all the clone equipment then there are lots of such programs see a current copy of unix world magazine but your performance will suck lemons running an xserver on a clone from experience you would be much better off with an xterminal if this is a new install the performance will be at least four times better in addition it would be much easier to install and use on top of that they will cost about the same price a clone with mb ram ethernet card very high performance graphics card good monitor server software tcp ip for clone software mouse keyboard etc etc etc you spend a whole lot of i can get tektronix xp terminals for under and the performance is over xstones mark a davis lake taylor hospital norfolk va x sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp
comp.windows.x	twm greyscale as distributed twm thinks everything with three or more colormap cells must be a colour screen here s a patch to have it use the screen s visual class twm c dist wed may twm c wed may scr xorvalue unsigned long scr d depth ifdef oldcode if displaycells dpy scrnum scr monochrome monochrome else scr monochrome color else xvisualinfo template xvisualinfo visualinfo int nitems template visual defaultvisual dpy scrnum template visualid xvisualidfromvisual template visual template screen scrnum visualinfo xgetvisualinfo dpy visualidmask visualscreenmask template nitems if nitems switch visualinfo class case staticcolor case pseudocolor case truecolor case directcolor scr monochrome color break default scr monochrome monochrome break else void fprintf stderr d visual match es assuming mono n nitems scr monochrome monochrome assume endif setup default colors scr firsttime true george d m ross department of computer science university of edinburgh kings buildings mayfield road edinburgh scotland eh jz mail gdmr dcs ed ac uk voice fax
comp.windows.x	piping tail f to a widget how oh lord how i ve spent the past week tearing my hair out trying to get the output of a piped tail f to end up in a widget i ve managed to make it work in some ugly ways but either a x blocks on the tail and won t allow user input b the tail f functions like just tail and doesn t follow the expansion of the file c the tail f doesn t die after i ve closed the pipe and destoryed the widget or d pclose blocks forever waiting for tail to die i know this code has to exist anybody have it a general popen case would be perfered but at this point i ll take anything thanks greg knauss greg quotron com llamas dammit llamas
comp.windows.x	error building x r xdm hi there i m trying to build x r mit core distribution on a sparcstation running sunos the only thing i change is the projectroot in site def when the make world process goes to cc o xdm i get the following error ld undefined symbol c a a error code and the process continues to finish does anybody know what s wrong thanx for any info lei shao ls cunixa cc columbia edu
comp.windows.x	twm hey guys i run twm and would like to execute some program before leaving twm in other words i would like to run some program before i do f quit is it possible to make a menu section which would contain these two parts thanks in advance serge serge gluttony astro unc edu
comp.windows.x	re looking for x windows on a pc in article c wlij l k bailgate gpsemi com markw pspmf gpsemi com mark wilkinson ext writes hi all this is the first time i ve posted to the net so i hope this is going to the right people i m looking for software packages that run on an ibm pc clone that allows me to display openlook and motif windows on the pc the idea is to use the pc as a cheap x windows terminal for use by process engineers at work if anyone can e mail me any recommended packages horror stories etc i would be greatful thanks in advance mark wilkinson mark wilkinson e mail wilkinson m roborough gpsemi com senior software engineer markwilk lincoln gpsemi com gec plessey semiconductors roborough plymouth england xoftware from age software has proven good by me runs under ms windows and is relatively stable techsup age com could probably help you out more andy andrew justin caird jobs nuclear engineering student university of michigan ring compton camera project dept of nuclear engineering parallel computing code work andrew caird umich edu acaird umich edu andrew caird um cc umich edu acaird engin umich edu
comp.windows.x	xwd and color anyone able to get xwd to dump anything that is not black white my text is not black all i get is window borders i tried the xy option only because i didn t know what it did still no effect any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated
comp.windows.x	none mail relay hi people i m looking for x servers for dos or windows i ve already seen desqview x and xvision but i d like to be aware of other choices is there anything on the public domain or shareware and in the commercial area is there anything with aggressive pricing what about incompatibilities window managers any info is welcome thanx in advance c u by e mario valente
comp.windows.x	re postscript viewer icons xbackground in article c rsjf em ccu umanitoba ca roholdr ccu umanitoba ca r ross holder jr writes ever since i started to use xwindows which is to say recently i ve accumulated a few questions about x applications three examples follow it was recently mentioned on comp os linux that there exists a post script viewer i am interested in this and any x editor that is an improvement on xedit which i find annoying try to get axe it s a wonderful x based editor and much simpler to use than emacs what is a overkill of course emacs is no editor but a religion at one point i was the proud owner of an amiga and have since upgraded to a workbench the point and click interface used info files to store the data for icons associated with applications on a given volume i have noticed no such architecture anywhere under linux how does xwindows associate icons with applications can one edit icons or generate new ones for applications somehow if it makes a difference i m running twm don t call going from an amiga to a ibm upgrade the amiga workbench did the job of a desktop manager and there is no really amazing good x desktop manager in the public domain i m currently writing one but it s in very early stage xdtm may be a medium good replacement x associates icons with nothing a number of x window managers associate icons with windows in a way to ease window management but this has nothing to do with icons of a desktop manager application the tool bitmap is there for simple icon drawing i ve noticed some people have somehow discovered a way to display gif or some kind of picture files in the background either replacing or overlapping some the usual grey background employed by xwindows i heard this was done using some application but i don t recall what it was xv root max quit whatever image file o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	re looking for x windows on a pc long list of known servers markw pspmf gpsemi com mark wilkinson ext writes hi all this is the first time i ve posted to the net so i hope this is going to the right people i m looking for software packages that run on an ibm pc clone that allows me to display openlook and motif windows on the pc the idea is to use the pc as a cheap x windows terminal for use by process engineers at work here s a listing that i came accross a while ago this question seems to come up often enough that i figured this would be of interest note that the server x appeal for dos is available in demo form on the internet via anonymous ftp this is one way of quickly checking out the feasability of using your system as an x server enjoy pete begin enclosure from mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov daniel j mccoy newsgroups comp windows x news answers subject x servers for dos microsoft windows os macs amigas atari reply to mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov daniel j mccoy organization i net inc summary this is a guide or list of x servers that can be used on nonunix sic networked machines to display x clients running on unix machines archive name xservers nonunix last modified version x servers for dos microsoft windows os macs amigas atari april volume author daniel j mccoy i net inc software technology branch information systems directorate nasa johnson space center post mail nasa mail code pt nasa johnson space center houston texas e mail mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov this is a monthly guide of x servers that can be used on non unix networked machines to display x clients running on unix machines i use the name unix loosely here i know others can run x the sources for this information come from many places the faq for comp windows x blurbs and info packets from the vendors user manuals for the products themselves conversations with sales representatives personal experience comp windows x articles etc please forward any corrections or updates to the above address this file is also available by anonymous ftp at export lcs mit edu in contrib xservers nonunix txt z ftp uwp edu in pub misc xservers nonunix txt msdos archive umich edu in msdos info xservers nonunix txt and msdos info xnonunix zip x servers for dos desqview x ibm x windows micro x dos micro x lite pc decwindows motif v pc x windows pc xsight pc xview sage adapter and x windows display server teemtalk x vista exceed x appeal xinet x station xnth xoftware for dos xoftware for tiga dos x servers microsoft windows desqview x excursion for windows exodus for ms windows hcl exceed w microx multiview x pc xview vista exceed x one x at xoftware xvision x servers os ibm x windows for os x servers macintosh exodus macx x servers amiga unknown x window system version release for the amiga computer x servers atari x tos window server and x tos window server color x servers x servers x servers x servers x servers x servers x servers dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos desqview x vendor melinda quarterdeck office systems inc pico boulevard santa monica ca tel fax price latest version cpu sx or higher version available memory mbytes operating system dos or higher dr dos or higher mouse optional ms compatible pointing device graphics ega vga super vga a or color dgis ethernet card network software disk space mbyte hard drive features incorporates x into the desqview multi tasking dos environment adds a graphical d look and feel to desqview gives users a choice of window managers look and feels provides a growth path from character mode dos to industry standard graphical user interfaces runs most regular dos applications runs dos extended applications up to gbytes can display dos applications within graphical windows multitasks dos applications and x clients either locally or remotely provides a simple port of applications from other x systems to desqview x and vice versa gives developers a choice of application appearances based on toolkit chosen supports toolkits that provide features required by developers such as push buttons scrollbars pop up dialogue boxes etc adobe type manager for scalable fonts and scalable dos windows dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos ibm x windows vendor ibm part price latest version cpu memory operating system dos mouse graphics ethernet card network software disk space features dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos micro x dos vendor starnet communications corporation lawrence expressway santa clara ca tel fax micro x starnet com prices unit ea pack greater discount for larger quantities upgrades at of original price educational discount of latest version cpu memory mbytes operating system dos or higher mouse or button mouse with ms compatible driver graphics ahead v ati everex vp vga genoa paradise c stb em trident cs tseng labs et video ht v vga western digital c zymos poach vesa and others ethernet card com c com etherlink mc cabletron micom interlan ni western digital wd e novell ne national semiconductor boards that have their own packet driver from manufacturer network software included starnet tcp ip integrated ncsa telnet ftp lpr etc packet drivers clarkson crynwr network software supported beame whiteside bw tcp ftp software pc tcp sun pc nfs disk space mbytes mbytes for all fonts mbyte or mbyte needed features x r intelligent installation program tcp ip built in support motif open look and dec supports clarkson crynwr packet drivers dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos micro x lite vendor starnet communications corporation lawrence expressway santa clara ca tel fax micro x starnet com prices latest version cpu memory kbytes operating system dos or higher mouse or button mouse with ms compatible driver graphics ahead v ati everex vp vga genoa paradise c stb em trident cs tseng labs et video ht v vga western digital c zymos poach vesa and others ethernet card com c com etherlink mc cabletron micom interlan ni western digital wd e novell ne national semiconductor boards that have their own packet driver from manufacturer network software included starnet tcp ip integrated ncsa telnet ftp lpr packet drivers clarkson crynwr network software supported beame whiteside bw tcp ftp software pc tcp sun pc nfs disk space mbytes mbyte or mbyte needed features x r intelligent installation program tcp ip built in clients on screen at time fixed font oriented variable fonts available support motif open look and dec supports clarkson crynwr packet drivers dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos pc decwindows motif v vendor dennis giokas pc decwindows development digital equipment corporation porter rd littleton ma price latest version v cpu memory up to mbytes operating system ms dos mouse any pointing device with ms mouse v or later interface graphics ega color and mono mcga vga color and mono enhanced vga x color and mono a x color pseudo color visual ethernet card network software tcp ip and decnet disk space features x release server integrated virtual memory manager standard ibm compatible keyboards and digital s lk session manager client integrated into the server suspend session feature to run dos commands font compiler for adobe bitmap distribution files keysym compiler to customize the keyboard for default keycode to keysym mappings over pre defined keyboard mapping files configuration utility to define hardware environment and user preferences supports decnet and tcp ip available from dec dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos pc xview vendor network computing devices inc pc xdivision sw gemini drive beaverton or tel fax there are also ncd technical and sales offices around the united states and other international offices price pc xview for dos for for annual maintenance for for update for for latest version pc xview for dos version cpu recommended memory mbyte mbytes recommended operating system dos or higher mouse graphics cga ega vga svga xga tiga a video standard supported with extended memory japanese graphics mode high resolution graphics boards compac dell hp nec spectragraphics squeegee and over other dgis based ethernet card over ethernet communications boards supported network software needed tcp ip decnet disk space mbytes mbytes recommended features unix application support for traditional applications and window managers such as motif and open look off loads the graphics processing of unix hosts hot key to dos access to local peripherals and dos utilities easy and well documented installation procedures pop up control panel motif compliant local window manager ability to run in windows pif window hot key between x and dos no longer have to exit a tsr dpmi compatibility enhanced protocol tracing support xremote protocol dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos pc x windows vendor intelligent decisions inc weddell dr suite c sunnyvale ca tel fax price latest version cpu memory mbyte more recommended for hi res or lots of pixmaps operating system dos of higher mouse ms compatible mouse graphics vga some svga ethernet card network software ftp software s pc tcp wollongong s win tcp disk space mbytes on hard disk features port of mit x r server shape extension mit magic cookie xdmcp font compiler fonts supplied motif open look decwindows vms and ultrix demonstrated to work with this server at interop last year dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos pc xsight vendor pc xsight locus computing corporation la cienega blvd inglewood ca tel ca uk price latest version cpu memory kbytes base memory with kbytes available kbytes extended memory operating system ms pc dos or later mouse or button mouse and driver button mouse recommend graphics ega vga hercules or at t ethernet card excelan exos or t com c western digital wd e micom ni acer multitech network software disk space inch high density or inch diskette drive mbyte features dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos sage adapter and x windows display server vendor sigma designs inc landing parkway fremont ca tel fax telex price latest version cpu memory operating system dos or higher or unix system v mouse graphics high end multiscanning or fixed frequency khz monitors ethernet card network software disk space features menu driven installation and configuration program x resolution tiga a ai emulation cga mda hercules vga pass through emulation modes colors displayable simultaneously from a palette of million dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos teemtalk x vendor pericom tel price latest version cpu memory operating system mouse graphics ethernet card network software disk space features for ibm clones allows toggling between x and dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos vista exceed vendor control data corporation vista distributing computing largo drive west suite landover md tel price vista exceed vista exceed plus vista exceed plus a latest version cpu memory kbytes to mbyte for dos server mbytes for vista exceed plus and vista exceed plus a operating system ms dos or pc dos or higher mouse or button ms compatible mouse graphics ega vga or svga color or analog monochrome monitor ethernet card any supported by tcp ip transports listed below network software pc tcp network software for dos by ftp software inc pc nfs by sun microsystems inc win tcp for dos by the wallongong group inc pathway access for dos by the wallongong group inc lan workplace tcp ip transport system by novell excelan open tcp by com corporation hp arpa services by hewlett packard corporation net one tcp bns pc by ungermann bass inc bwnfs or telnet package by beame whiteside software ltd disk space hard disk features can may up to mbytes available for client processing emulates a button mouse with a button mouse full interactive support for x font names and alias schemes locally modify keyboard mapping dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos x appeal vendor giovanni novelli xtreme s a s livorno italy fax xappeal xtreme sublink org before xappeal xtreme it after price with quantity discounts off for copies off for copies off for copies additional discount for educational institutions demo copies available through anonymous ftp at garbo uwasa fi pc demo xap exe zip readme and executables pc demo xap fon zip local server fonts pc connect drivers zip packet drivers latest version cpu sx or higher memory mbytes mbytes recommended operating system ms dos or later mouse any pointing device with ms mouse compatible driver graphics most svga boards in color mode ahead v b ati chips technologies c genoa ncr c e oak technologies oti paradise wd c trident c tseng labs et et western digital wd c ethernet card any model compatible with packet drivers network software tcp ip included disk space at least mbytes features full x r server implementation including pex and font server support screen painting exceeds xstones in x resolution colors on a without support for all color classes staticgray grayscale staticcolor pseudocolor truecolor and directcolor run time resolution switch and panning on a virtual screen emulates a button mouse with a button mouse fast cursor tracking full support for european keyboard layouts no memory limitation through use of virtual memory bit protected mode dos extended application built in tcp ip support using the packet driver for the ethernet board free packet driver collection included interactive configuration utility x display manager control protocol support for hosts running xdm x authorization mit magic cookie shape extension for non rectangular windows font compiler and rgb database utilities x fonts provided including fonts for sun open windows and decwindows unix application support for traditional applications and window managers such as motif and open look built in rcp rsh server to allow file transfers and the execution of useful dos functions without leaving the x environment dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos xinet x station vendor xinetron ca tel price latest version cpu memory operating system mouse graphics ethernet card network software disk space features up to clients dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos xnth vendor jerry norman nth graphics ltd tel this x server project has been abandoned price cpu memory operating system dos or higher mouse graphics ethernet card network software tcp ip disk space features supports x or x resolution monitors at colors out of m with hardware acceleration for graphics and text operations dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos xoftware for dos vendor age logic inc pacific heights blvd san diego ca tel fax email sales age com bert shure tel ext email bert age com age bert ucsd edu price with tcp ip latest version cpu memory mbytes extended operating system dos or higher mouse or button mouse with ms compatible driver graphics ega vga svga or ethernet card compatible with network software network software com open tcp of higher dec pathworks tcp ip of higher ftp pc tcp of higher novell lan workplace of higher sun pc nfs or higher wollongong pathway access or higher disk space mbytes mbyte or mbyte floppy needed features mit compliant with age extensions hotkeys to dos and ms windows passive telnet rsh rexec or xdmcp startup modes motif openlook and decwindows support virtual screen support international keyboard support full font library in snf format bdf to snf font compiler complete documentation support and update service dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos xoftware for tiga dos vendor age logic inc pacific heights blvd san diego ca tel fax email sales age com bert shure tel ext email bert age com age bert ucsd edu price with tcp ip latest version cpu memory kbytes operating system dos or higher mouse or button mouse with ms compatible driver graphics texas instruments tms based graphics accelerator with tiga or higher whith mbyte dram ethernet card compatible with network software network software com open tcp of higher dec pathworks tcp ip of higher ftp pc tcp of higher novell lan workplace of higher sun pc nfs or higher wollongong pathway access or higher disk space mbytes mbyte or mbyte floppy needed features mit compliant with age extensions hotkeys to dos and ms windows passive telnet rsh rexec or xdmcp startup modes motif openlook and decwindows support virtual screen support international keyboard support full font library in snf format bdf to snf font compiler complete documentation support and update service optimized for tiga graphics accelerators dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows desqview x vendor melinda quarterdeck office systems inc pico boulevard santa monica ca tel fax price latest version cpu sx or higher version available memory mbytes recommended operating system pc or ms dos or higher dr dos or higher mouse ms compatible pointing device graphics ega vga super vga a color dgis ati x c t c x c t c x tseng et x tseng et x genoa x wd pvga a x wd c x wd c x some revisions of headland vega x and headland v vga x ethernet card network software disk space mbyte hard drive features incorporates x into the desqview multi tasking dos environment adds a graphical d look and feel to desqview gives users a choice of window managers look and feels provides a growth path from character mode dos to industry standard graphical user interfaces runs most regular dos applications runs dos extended applications up to gbytes can display dos applications within graphical windows multitasks dos applications and x clients either locally or remotely provides a simple port of applications from other x systems to desqview x and vice versa gives developers a choice of application appearances based on toolkit chosen supports toolkits that provide features required by developers such as push buttons scrollbars pop up dialogue boxes etc can run dos text and ms windows graphics programs locally and remotely adobe type manager for scalable fonts and scalable dos windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows excursion for windows vendor digital equipment corporation maynard massachusetts price latest version cpu memory mbytes operating system dos ms windows or later mouse ms windows supported mouse graphics ms windows supported card ethernet card network software decnet with pathworks for dos tcp ip with pathworks for dos tcp ip tcp ip with pc tcp from ftp software inc tcp ip with com tcp with demand protocol architecture disk space mbytes hard desk kbyte or mbyte floppy drive features seperate application windows for each x applicatioon displayed by the x server excursion setup utility for installing excursion under ms windows control panes provides an easy way to start x applications and customize environment online help ability to cut and paste text or graphics between x and ms windows ability to compile new fonts ability to redefine keys on the keyboard personal password security access to excursion three button mouse emulation microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows exodus for ms windows vendor white pine software inc simon street suite nashua hn tel fax email sdarling wpine com applelink whitepine price latest version cpu memory mbytes mbytes recommended operating system dos ms windows or higher mouse recommended graphics ega vga svga dgis ethernet card most cards network software disk space features x r color and monochrome x screen support including bit truecolor backing store and save under options full xdmcp support access control support online help button mouse emulation text and graphics transfers between ms windows and macintosh clipboards microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows hcl exceed w vendor hummingbird communications ltd john street unit markham ontario canada l r g tel fax price copy copies copies or more copies latest version cpu memory mbytes or more recommended operating system dos ms windows version standard and enhanced modes mouse ms compatible pointing device graphics ega vga or vga ethernet card any compatible with the networking product you choose network software disk space features makes full use of and other high resolution graphics cards redesigned for ms windows not an implementation of mit x copy paste between x windows and ms windows interactive configuration utility full interactive support for font naming alias schemes font compiler log file of host generated messages backing store and save unders virtual screen support seven start up methods full support for european keyboards font host access rgb databases loading x protocol trace dissassembly functionality microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows micro x win vendor starnet communications lawrence expressway santa clara ca tel fax micro x starnet com prices micro x win unit ea pack greater discount for larger quantities upgrades at of original price educational discount of latest version for x release cpu memory mbytes operating system ms dos or higher ms windows or higher mouse or button with ms compatible driver graphics ms windows supported cards ethernet card com c com etherlink mc cabletron micom interlan ni western digital wd e novell ne national semiconductor boards that have their own packet driver from manufacturer network software included lanera tcpopen winsock compatible network software supported ftp software pc tcp lanera tcpopen sun pc nfs winsock compatible tcp ip stacks disk space mbytes mbyte or mbyte needed features x r integrated rsh rexec with displayed results auto start up with xdmcp or rsh rexec easy additional session start up panning supports motif open look and decwindows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows multiview x vendor jsb computer systems ltd cheshire house castle street macclesfield cheshire england sk af tel jsb corporation whispering pines drive suite scotts valley california tel fax price latest version cpu memory operating system dos ms windows mouse graphics ethernet card network software rs direct connections rs modem connections atlantix axcess beame whiteside tcp ip d link tcp ip for dos ftp pc tcp hp arpa services for dos ibm aix access for dos users icl oslan int b locus pci locus tcp ip for dos ms lan manager for unix ms lan manager for unix v ncr token ring novell lan workplace for dos sco xenix net sun pc nfs ungermann bass net one ungermann bassnet one netci int b wollongong pathway access dos wollongong win tcp for dos com open tcp disk space features provides a character server for character applications emulation for dec vt dec vt dec vt sco unix xenix console x open ansi interactive unix console at t unix console automatically invokes the x server when an x client is selected passive telnet rsh rexec and xdmcp startup modes supported full x r font library provided in standard windows format bdf to windows compiler copy and paste of text available single iconic desktop microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows pc xview vendor network computing devices inc pc xdivision sw gemini drive beaverton or tel fax there are also ncd technical and sales offices around the united states and other international offices price pc xview for windows for for annual maintenance for for update for for latest version cpu recommended memory mbytes mbytes recommended operating system ms dos or pc dos or higher ms windows or windows nt mouse recommended but not needed graphics any compatible with ms windows ethernet card network software needed tcp ip decnet disk space mbytes mbytes recommended features runs ms windows applications alongside x clients cut and paste between x clients and ms windows applications using the windows clipboard full support of x r features including the shape extension off loads graphics processing from host computers runs in both standard and enhanced modes of ms windows manages x clients with a standard remote window manager or with ms windows full x fonts provided including fonts for sun open windows and decwindows windows based compiler that converts bitmap description format bdf fonts to ms windows format fon fonts windows based file transfer program prints files from a remote host on your local printer built in client starter windows based installation and configuration ddl support for network interfaces easy installation procedures x display manager control protocol xdmcp support support for multiple tcp ip network packages comprehensive and well organized user s guide graphics cut paste virtual screen support support the xremote protocol developed by ncd microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows vista exceed vendor control data corporation vista distributing computing largo drive west suite landover md tel price vista exceed w latest version cpu memory mbytes for ms windows server operating system dos or higher ms windows mouse or button ms compatible mouse ms windows supported mouse graphics ega vga or svga any supported by ms windows ethernet card any supported by tcp ip transports listed below network software pc tcp network software for dos by ftp software inc pc nfs by sun microsystems inc win tcp for dos by the wallongong group inc pathway access for dos by the wallongong group inc lan workplace tcp ip transport system by novell excelan open tcp by com corporation hp arpa services by hewlett packard corporation net one tcp bns pc by ungermann bass inc bwnfs or telnet package by beame whiteside software ltd disk space hard disk features can may up to mbytes available for client processing emulates a button mouse with a button mouse full interactive support for x font names and alias schemes locally modify keyboard mapping microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows x at vendor intergrated inference machines inc computer products division east katella avenue anaheim ca tel and fax price latest version cpu memory kbytes base memory mbytes extended memory operating system ms dos or later ms windows or later mouse graphics any graphics card and that supports ms windows ega or vga resolution or better are recommended cga color graphics adapter compaq portable iii or portable plasma display ega with high resolution color display ega whith low resolution color display hercules with high resolution monochrome display ibm a display olivetti monochrome or pvc display olivetti oec display wyse high resolution monochrome moniterm viking monochrome vga video graphics array ethernet card also compatible with excelan com ungermann bass western digital tiara iim s x pac and others network software either excelan s tcp ip driver set or ftp inc pc tcp driver set not included with x at disk space at least mbytes of storage capacity available for x at software excluding optional x fonts to use all x fonts supplied with x at a total of mbytes is required features concurrent ms dos x windows operation concurrent x windows telnet operation cut paste utility ftp utility font compiler for user developed fonts telnet and ftp utilities included compatible with the following ftp software programs when not operated under ms windows ftp the file transfer protocol client ftpsev the file transfer protocol server interdrive the network file system nfs ping a network test tnvt the telnet virtual terminal client microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows x one vendor grafpoint saratoga avenue san jose ca tel pst fax uunet grafpnt sales price free demo copies latest version cpu memory mbytes operating system dos or higher ms windows mouse or button mouse graphics vga super vga a tiga vga boards with s chip set ethernet card network software grafpoint s tcp ip included disk space features x r on screen setup builtin tcp ip supports local clients such as telnet vt window a setup window an rsh window a local window manager dos and windows versions in one product hot key to dos days of telephone technical support microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows xvision vendor visionware limited white pine is re badging xvision as cardigan lane exodus for windows leeds ls le simon street suite united kingdom nashua hn tel tel fax fax sdarling wpine com applelink whitepine vware visionware co uk price users users users users users users users educational discounts available adding a user where at least are installed xremote support per pc bundled upgrade full documentation evaluation copy latest version cpu memory mbytes mbytes recommended operating system dos or later ms windows or later mouse recommended but not required graphics ms windows compatible graphics ethernet card network software ftp pc tcp excelan lan workplace for dos locus tcp ip for dos ungermann bass net one tcp pc wollongong win tcp for dos beame whiteside tcp ip sun pc nfs hp lan manager arpa services for dos com open disk space inch high density or inch high density features copy and paste between x and ms windows use a host window manager or allow ms windows to control x clients support for all color classes staticgray grayscale staticcolor pseudocolor truecolor and directcolor several user options for performance enhancement x release server fonts and server extensions including xdmcp icccm compliant x clients may also use ms windows fonts easy configuration of the system via dialog boxes provides the functionality of a three button mouse support for all international keyboards supported by windows host access control network aware setup and on line help iconic control panel for configuring xvision dynamic server optimizations xvision runs tests on the pc at install time to see how best to draw to the display support for ncd xremote decnet shape extension bit color ms windows font managers all color classes rsh rexec microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows xoftware vendor age logic inc pacific heights blvd san diego ca tel fax email sales age com bert shure tel ext email bert age com age bert ucsd edu price with tcp ip latest version cpu memory mbytes extended operating system dos or higher windows or higher mouse ms windows compatible mouse graphics card with ms windows driver ethernet card network software beame whiteside tcp ip or higher ftp pc tcp of higher dec pathworks or higher hp arpa services or higher novell lan workplace or higher sun pc nfs or higher ungermann bass net one tcp or higher wollongong pathway access or higher wollongong win tcp or higher com open tcp or higher disk space mbytes mbyte or mbyte floppy needed features mit compliant with age extensions context sensitive on line help system cut and paste between x and ms windows start x applications with ms windows icons single and multiple window modes ms window manager used with x applications virtual screen up to by passive telnet rsh rexec and xdmcp startup modes backing store and save unders motif openlook and decwindows support full font library in fon format bdf to ms windows fon font compiler log file optionally saves system messages tutorial on the x window system microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows os os os os os os os os os os os os os ibm x windows for os vendor ibm solutions center voice ibm call fax price plus for ibm tcp ip for os required latest version version part number g x windows g tcp ip cpu sx or higher memory mbytes recommended minimum operating system ibm os or higher mouse os compatible pointing device graphics ega vga super vga a xga or other os supported card ethernet card compatible with os ndis network software ibm tcp ip required disk space mbyte hard drive features incorporates x into the os advanced pc operating system provides full x r server x font library x font compiler x client utilities runs as another object on the workplace shell wps desktop cut and paste between os dos and windows applications running under os full tcp ip implementation including ftp telnet lamail ping finger slip rsh remote printing bootp vt and many more other modules available including nfs programmer s toolkit includes kerberos rpc dpi ncs ftp api sockets api resolver api and more os os os os os os os os os os os os os macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh exodus vendor white pine software inc simon street suite nashua hn tel fax email sdarling wpine com applelink whitepine price latest version cpu all macintosh computers exodus ii runs on macintosh computers with a or processor and a floating point co processor memory mbytes operating system version or later version or later if you plan to use communications toolbox for network connections mouse graphics ethernet card network software tcp ip mactcp by apple computer inc part of commsolutions tcp ip tcport lan workplace by novell inc formerly tcport host access decnet tssnet by thursby software systems inc a special version is distributed as part of commsolutions decnet community mac distributed by everex inc decnet decnet for macintosh part of pathworks by digital equipment corporation adsp pathworks distributed by digital equipment corporation appletalk disk space features supports multifinder under a ux clients and server run on the macintosh under macintosh operating system clients run on another computer conforms to the macintosh human interface guidelines user standard macintosh pull down menus functions as a macintosh program under the macintosh operating system handles macintosh events can use normal macintosh environment macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macx vendor apple computer inc cupertino ca tel tlx or any apple dealer businessland microage etc price macx order no m ll c macx manual set order no m ll b macx update product order no m ll a mac x and x site license order no m ll c latest version cpu any macintosh memory mbytes operating system system software or later mouse graphics bit and bit graphics ethernet card network software localtalk ethernet disk space at least two floppy disks for or later mbytes hard disk tor features x release server icccm compatible cut and paste of text and graphics between the macintosh and x shape extension including shaped windows on the macintosh desktop optional built in icccm compliant window manager built in bdf font compiler built in standard colormaps built in window managers support for system software version support for multiple monitors copy and paste text and graphics macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga unknown vendor price latest version cpu memory operating system mouse graphics ethernet card network software disk space features amiga machines offer an x server and open look tools and libraries on a full svr implementation amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga x window system version release for the amiga computer vendor gfxbase inc dale luck ellwell drive milpitas ca tel fax usenet boing dale bix duck amiga boing dale bloom beacon mit edu price yearly maintenance fee latest version cpu amigados computer a a a a a t a a a memory mbyte for server and x color display more ram required for local clients operating system amigados operating system v or later mouse amiga button mouse or optical button mouse tablet trackball or international keyboard graphics ntsc to x hz pal x hz overscan genlock and interlace supported a viking x hz x hz super screens to x scrollable on smaller display productivity screen x hz noninterlaced x interlaces two colors out of a palette of can be selected cursor has two separately controlled colors color server colors from a viking gray scales some resolutions restricted gda x x x noninterlaced m ameristar gx x x noninterlaced m ethernet card commodore a network software commodore tcp ip or syndesis decnet for ethernet and serial connections sana for local disk space mbytes features contains x r clients fonts etc amiga xpr uses the standard amiga printer device technology which supports more that different types of printers black and white of color xamiga r monochrome and color servers optional programmer s toolkit includes the header files libraries and sample programs optional mwm window manager optional toolkits widgets motif xview hp amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga atari atari atari atari atari atari atari atari atari atari atari atari atari x tos window server and x tos window server color vendor x software michael gehret x tos division marktstrasse w groenenbach germany tel fax email xtosinfo xsoft uucp price x tos window server for all tos computers dm x tos window server color for all tos computers dm option for or processors only dm x tos window server color option and option pex t b a overseas order handling dm none ec european order handling dm latest version cpu atari mega st ste tt to memory mbytes mbytes recommended operating system tos or higher mouse atari mouse graphics x tos window server monochrome x x monochrome x x tt sm x tos window server color monochrome x x monochrome x x tt sm color x x color x x color x x color x x ethernet card atari card mega or vme bus riebl wacker mega or vme bus end enclosure peter j mckinney pm longs lance colostate edu electrohydrodynamic laboratory fluid mechanics and wind engineering program civil engineering department colorado state university
comp.windows.x	xview sun xgl performance problem i ve written an application for sparcstation gx under openwindows the application uses xview stuff to create my window and the sun xgl graphics library for rendering into the canvas the application does real time d animation but it does not update the the display fast enough i m using notify set itimer xview call to periodically kick off my update routine and it s not happening fast enough i want it to update times second it s only doing about also it appears to be compute bound because if i run anything else while my appplication is up the update rate slows down even more any ideas thanks
comp.windows.x	dump of login screen i m running hp ux with hp vue and i need a hardcopy of the login window the one asking for login and password to include in a manual i have tried xwd display hostname root out login xwd from a login on a remote terminal but it doesn t work xwd seems to wait for the window server but the window server doesn t answer any suggestions i must use xwd because i don t have access to ftp and i can t obtain another program to grab the screen thanks in advance nadia pitacco nadia pitacco siap sistemi s p a via g b grassi milano italy e mail morgaine siap sublink org
comp.windows.x	re looking for x windows on a pc mark taylor uucp mark a davis writes markw pspmf gpsemi com mark wilkinson ext writes but your performance will suck lemons running an xserver on a clone from experience you would be much better off with an xterminal if this is a new install the performance will be at least four times better in addition it would be much easier to install and use on top of that they will cost about the same price a clone with mb ram ethernet card very high performance graphics card good monitor server software tcp ip for clone software mouse keyboard etc etc etc you spend a whole lot of i can get tektronix xp terminals for under and the performance is over xstones mark a davis lake taylor hospital norfolk va x sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp i think your performance will depend upon the x server i m running linux and xfree on a mhz dx with mb of ram mb swap and it runs just fine its a lot better than some of the crappy old xterminals in the labs at school anyway you could probably outfit a sx with a minimal linux x setup for and be better off than with an xterminal imho scott j scott farrow student sysadmin programmer university of colorado computing network services boulder colorado usa phone internet farrow spot colorado edu linux users do it for free
comp.windows.x	re xterm fonts in article may taylor uucp mark taylor uucp mark a davis writes i have a problem which many of you might have run into we use lots of ascii terminals and use them to the max meaning lots of attributes line draw etc now what i need to do is come up with a working xterm which will emulate our advanced ascii terminals as closely as possible this means needing all attributes to work including bold and line drawing the only fonts which seem to meet these criteria are a pairs of fonts in which one is bold and the other normal while both have linedraw fixed spacing and several sizes the only standard fonts which work are the fonts like x and x b under misc they work great except i need a font one size larger x now x works well but there is no bold counterpart to make matters worse i need the fonts in some form i can use for tektronix xterminals it seems they like pcf format although i should be able to convert a bdf format anyone have any suggestions mark a davis lake taylor hospital norfolk va x sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp this would be tedious but if you have the time you could get the bdf file i can email it to you if you don t have it or don t have easy access to the x source and could make your own bold font from this since each glyph is just a bitmap you could write a program to convert each glyph to a bitmap readable file use bitmap to make each glyph bold and convert the results back to bdf format then use bdftopcf to create the pcf file then stick the pcf in usr lib x fonts misc or wherever and include it in fonts dir and voila you ll have what you need ernie coskrey ncr corporation mcpd columbia ernie coskrey columbiasc ncr com platt springs road west columbia sc i m out there busting my buns every night tell your old man to drag walton and lanier up and down the court for minutes roger murdoch co pilot
comp.windows.x	re twm in article may samba oit unc edu naoumov physics unc edu sergei naoumov writes i run twm and would like to execute some program before leaving twm in other words i would like to run some program before i do f quit is it possible to make a menu section which would contain these two parts in your menu definition put quit twm f function execute and quit then define function execute and quit some program f quit barry margolin system manager thinking machines corp barmar think com uunet harvard think barmar
comp.windows.x	how to draw in invert mode with color how can i draw an object of a specified color over objects of varying colors and then erase it without having to redraw everything else what s happening is this if i draw it using gxcopy it is drawn in the specified color if i erase it using gxcopy with foreground and background reversed it erases whatever it overlayed i then need to redraw all of the items it crossed yuch if i draw it using gxinvert it is drawn in a random color nothing resembling what i requested it properly restores the color of underlying objects in erase mode what s the solution scott k frost uucp osu cis chemabs scott frost same mbox bitnet skf cas inet scott frost cas org personal shrewsbury rd upper arlington oh
comp.windows.x	syncronous modal dialog hi i have a lots of problems using xview libraries release in order to do the following i want to create a modal dialog which block the program flow a syncronous dialog ala macintosh as the notice panel does but with text item list item and other xview objects the modal dialog also must allows the timer to be called why notice doesn t do that the problems are using the xv window loop functions most xview objects dont work as the list item and the timers aren t called with the notify dispatch explicit i have problem because never attempt to do direct dispaching from within a callback routine as say the xview programming manual third edition on page uhm i know this number but i need to do dispatching just inside a callback routine help me please thanks in advance giovanni p s please send replay directly to my address belove i haven t direct access to internet giovanni beani list s p a p za dei facchini pisa fax my email address is list applelink apple com beware this address is shared by many users so put the word gbeani at the start of subject field and follow it by the real subject thanks
comp.windows.x	re looking for x windows on a pc in article may qdeck com support qdeck com technical support writes may i humbly suggest desqview x of course i m biased i have a weird oddball one of a kind video card it s an orchid fahrenheit i get to run it in x with dvx at least i don t have to worry about straining my eyes with that super vga stuff
comp.windows.x	re sun as x terminal xkernel is available for sun s is there a similar package available is this public domain if yes where can one obtain a copy from yes it is it is available at ftp ctr columbia edu probably in pub xkernel in response to the earlier gentlemans question you could theoretically recompile xkernel on a sun the binaries available are for the sun but the author says it could be used on most architectures and he does have a do it yourself type distribution we use xkernel for about machines here email me if you have any questions i can help you with greg owen gowen forte cs tufts edu gowen jade tufts edu systems programmer and ta tufts university computer science dept personal info gcs go d p c l m m s g w w t r x
comp.windows.x	re online help motif widget in article may serval net wsu edu d e bucky pnl gov je pelkey writes i am looking for online help motif widgets public domain or otherwise to run on a sun sparc i d be especially interested in help widgets that can integrate hypertext help graphics etc anybody know of any widgets like this text graphics bristol technologies has help clone of mswindows help frame makers of framemaker has frameview text only graphical software technology has xtra widgets includes help there are probably others check out ics widget data book i actually wrote one for the last company i worked for however it is locked in their internal reuse library it was a good one too imho and totally unbiased view of things bill scott bills feeninx metronet com hi graphics consultant wk american airlines
comp.windows.x	ics widget data book does anyone know how i can obtain information about the ics widget data book i only have their email address and they don t seem to be reading or replying to their mail jan olav eide software engineer systems administrator snail mail email nordic offshore systems olav nordic offshore no drilling information services voice ringsveien box ext stabekk fax norway i don t believe in astrology but then i m a capricorn and capricorns don t believe in astrology jan olav eide software engineer systems administrator snail mail email nordic offshore systems olav nordic offshore no
comp.windows.x	geometry in font units in place of pixels i am planning to convert my motif app from pixel to font units which would all be set in the app s resource file instead of hard coded in the program however the word here is from people who tried this already that for some unknown reason xmform offsets placed in the resource file are still interpreted in pixel units forcing people to code those offset font units into the program can somebody confirm this thanks joe pannon pannon bcsfse ca boeing com
comp.windows.x	button popup menus with athena widgets ok i m being driven batty trying to create popup menus ie button press and a menu appears i would really like to use the standard athena classes to achieve this goal but for my best attempts i cannot get the menus to come up without using a menubutton as the parent of the widget tree i know this should be possible to to with an xtpopupspringloaded and a little twiddling but something is escaping me name david koblas domain koblas netcom com affiliation extra mile consulting phone quote time has little to do with infinity and jelly donuts
comp.windows.x	tool to convert a gif file to xpm pixmap format i need the tool described in the subject line is there such a tool available via ftp if so i d appreciate it if someone could e mail me the location and pathname thanks saad mufti personal library software e mail mufti pls com
comp.windows.x	ignorant imake xfig question hi folks i m trying to compile xfig on a ss running sunos and ow and i m having a little trouble with make imake specifically make bombs when it needs to use any xaw file this isn t surprising since x files on suns with the standard ow distribution are in various places under usr openwin xaw files are in usr openwin share include x xaw actually the real problem is that i know squat about imake and i don t know how to tell imake where the x files are i can see from the makefile that it s looking in the wrong places but the first line of the makefile reads makefile generated by imake do not edit help is there some way i can edit the imakefile to tell it where to look i have set defines dopenwin bug as it said to in the readme file email and post are both fine thanks in advance dave
comp.windows.x	x r on solbourne hi netters having inherited a solbourne s sun compatible i was wondering if somebody has ported x r to this beast since solbournce computer inc folded up i don t know where i can get the kernel to move from r since they never joined the mit consortium the regular distribution doesn t work any pointers will be highly appreciated julian o julian anigbogu loria loria fr
comp.windows.x	x screen saver hi i have a question which is not directly related to x screen saver what x screen saver does is to blank the screen if it has been idle for some time i don t want my screen to go blank but to get locked or call xlock program is there a parallel call to xsetscreensaver which locks my screen or call my lock program after certain amount of idle time or is there a way to find out how long the server has been idle thanks vadi vadi csi com
comp.windows.x	re looking for x windows on a pc in article c wlij l k bailgate gpsemi com wilkinson m roborough gpsemi com writes hi all this is the first time i ve posted to the net so i hope this is going to the right people i m looking for software packages that run on an ibm pc clone that allows me to display openlook and motif windows on the pc i highly recommend starnet s micro x they have versions for dos and windows with support for pc tcp or the clarkson packet drivers i have used it successfully with twm mwm and olwm over both ethernet and slip and their tech support is top notch they really impressed me kevin kevin j jarnot jarnot kin lap upenn edu the monkey boys are evil lead programmer analyst keyboardist lord whorfin is supreme univ of pennsylvania language analysis center market st suite phila pa vita non jerk
comp.windows.x	re uimx a motif application generator in article may xact demon co uk ptm xact demon co uk paul thomas mahoney writes newsgroups comp windows x path linus mitre org linus agate howland reston ans net torn nott bnrgate bnr co uk uknet warwick qmw dcs qmw demon xact demon co uk ptm from ptm xact demon co uk paul thomas mahoney organization x act solutions limited x newsreader tin pl date tue may gmt lines i am looking of information regarding uimx i believe this is an application front end generator tool for motif among others whould someone given me a contact i need to get hold of the programmers guide or something like it paul mahoney x act solutions limited smail shipley lane cooden bexhill on sea east sussex tn sr email ptm xact demon co uk pmahoney cix compulink co uk phone i went to the xworld convention in ny and talked to the people from bluestone who make uimx they sent me a huge ring binder of info and a demo tape let me know what you need steve chase schase xodus mitre org
comp.windows.x	re looking for x windows on a pc pm longs lance colostate edu peter j mckinney writes price pc xview for dos for for ncd just announced a new generation of pc xview they changed the name a little though and i can t remember exactly pc xsomething it now supports windows and their press release implies that since it s still priced in the range and it s so feature full why buy anything else disclaimer this is not a direct quote from the literature but i think it sums it up also i have never used the product
comp.windows.x	how to make a window s input be all caps without caps lock an application we must use requires upper case input i d like to be able to simply move my cursor into the window where that application is running just a text window xterm or some such and have everything i type be entered as all caps when the cursor is in any of my many other windows i want to automatically return to normal functionality i have point to type set is there a way to do this in x specifically ow on sparcs is there a way to mess with xdefaults to make a category of window do this any hints would be most appreciated i program in c but not x although i can pick up somthing that s not too involved thanks kindly kevin weinrich computer sciences corp kbw helios ath epa gov
comp.windows.x	resource listing for x r does anyone know of a source book file etc of all the standard resource names in x r a small description of what the resource is would also be helpful but not vital any help in which direction to go would be greatly appreciated thanks robin kinzy office home brigham young university college of engineering technology robin r kinzy clyde building e n provo ut provo ut phone phone email rrk bones et byu edu bruce owen lee we will pay the price brigham young university but we will not count the cost college of engineering technology email lee bones et byu edu rush
comp.windows.x	announce xm commoninteract ui development sys xm commoninteract another user interface development system if you would like to implement x toolkit applications with c in a style like this mini sample application class test public xmwindow void cmd char void quit void public test xmwindow xm test window void initialize void test initialize xmdropdownmenu menu createdropdownmenu menu addlabel file menu additems entry menu item one cb test cmd entry menu item two cb test cmd nullentry menu addseparator menu additem entry e xit cb test quit addsubpane edit myedit edit myedit settext hello world void test cmd char n edit myedit settext n void test quit void exit void xmapp initialize new test initialize then continue reading contents of the current release s readme xm is a user interface framework for the c language built upon x and the x toolkit it is designed to be a simple and intuitive programming interface to access the functionality of commonly used widgets xm was initially created for the motif widget set now support for the athena widgets was added applications created with xm run in both environments without changes although many nice features are only available when using motif in some situations xm extends the underlying toolkit i e providing a combobox borrowed from ms windows but never tries to replace it data of user interface objects is left to the widgets and only duplicated in rare cases xm has nothing common with motif besides the general idea to encapsulate motif widgets in c objects and the in it s name many ideas for the xm architecture came from digitalk s smalltalk version which provides an easy to use framework for windows pm mac applications in the very first time of development i used the windows dialog editor and a simple parser to create similar smalltalk and xm dialogs top level objects in xm windows systemdialogs and toolboxes which use the automatic layout feature of various composite widgets in motif and xaw userdialogs which can be individually laid out with a user interface builder a first version of such a dialog editor is included in this distribution controls children of top level objects statictext staticimage pushbutton checkbox radiobutton edit listbox combobox groupbox panearea drawing toolbar the staticimage and all the button classes can display b w x bitmap format or color gif format pictures as an alternative to a label text event handling is done by a simple but powerful mechanism which redirects xt callbacks to member functions of xm objects commoninteract ii is built upon the xm drawing class and provides components for building direct manipulative applications is is a very simplified implementation of some features from the commoninteract system research project of our institute in an approach to define a software achitecture for implementing direct manipulative applications with multiple interaction media i e sound alternative input devices if you are interrested look into the june issue of the joop sigs publications journal of object oriented programming there should be our paper about commoninteract but be aware that it is our state of the art from commoninteract ii is still undocumented and is included because it was used to implement the dialog editor it currently supports only drawing primitives lines rectangles circles but we plan to extend it to support bitmaps and some controls also known problem the xm drawing class has no redrawing strategy always redraws the whole window even after minimal changes like selecting an object this looks very ugly on slow displays and should be fixed about this first release xm is still incomplete and has a lot of bugs but we are using it here for smaller applications which are running without problems so i think i can call it a beta release which can be used to develop applications for any non critical purposes commoninteract may be called a pre alpha release it s development will be continued this year because we plan to use it for another research project here besides incompleteness and the redrawing problem it seems to be stable and can be used for experimental applications platforms this release was compiled and tested on hp running hp ux sun sparc running sunos release pc at running linux v pl caution although the whole stuff was initially developed using an at t standard c compiler this release is tested only with gnu g or above the next release will be tested with both compilers where to get it i have uploaded it on export lcs mit edu as contrib xm tar z send a mail if you cannot find it there e mail addr below where to find more information the doc directory contains install how to build the libraries and examples readme gnu problems and limitations when using gnu g read usersguide txt a tutorial how to use xm reference txt a first try of a xm class reference manual the readme files in the samples gives a brief description of each of the seven samples xm commoninteract is free software for any non profit purposes see the file lib copyright for details send any comments bug reports and donations to the author bernhard strassl vienna user interface group institute for applied computer science and information systems university of vienna lenaugasse a wien austria e mail xmplus ani univie ac at
comp.windows.x	q xterm s hello i m looking for a good explanation and example of the usefulness of the s option for xterm slave mode on file descriptor xxx sure but xterm sp does not seem to grab what arrives on my window where is my misunderstan ding tia fred frederic pierre ensps lsit rue de l universite f strasbourg france tel fax e mail fred sobel u strasbg fr hamradio fc hfd
comp.windows.x	re looking for x windows on a pc in article may taylor uucp mark taylor uucp mark a davis writes farrow ucsu colorado edu j scott farrow writes mark taylor uucp mark a davis writes markw pspmf gpsemi com mark wilkinson ext writes but your performance will suck lemons running an xserver on a clone i have a clone almost with no name generating k xstones on a mhz system i can get tektronix xp terminals for under and the performance is over xstones i m running linux and xfree on a mhz dx with mb of ram mb swap and it runs just fine its a lot better than some of the crappy old xterminals in the labs at school anyway you will not come even close to the performance of an xp series plus you excuse me but with a k cache s isa card mb xs x r running bsd you can get k xstones at x mhz which i doubt that your xp series gets commerical verions x servers for s cards can get k xstones so the performance is there and additionally since is running unix multiple users can use the system which i have done in my home setup maintenance is minimal if you can read readme files for the x servers and for bsd amancio hasty this message brought to you by the letters x and s and the number amancio hasty home ftp site depository of all my work e mail hasty netcom com sunvis rtpnc epa gov pub bsd incoming
comp.windows.x	re tvtwm icon manager in article risky convergent com sxs extol convergent com s sridhar writes keywords tvtwm icon manager need help on resource bindings for tvtwm here s what i d like to see the icon manager do say i iconify a window and this shows up on the icon list now when i pan into another section of the virtual desktop and try to deiconify the window that i iconed sp earlier i d like this window to deiconify in the current region any resources that i can use to do this or more important can i do this rather find it painful to remember where i iconified a window go back there and deiconify or simply it is a pain to pan around to get to a deiconified window thanks ssridhar convergent com just opened up the distribution
comp.windows.x	any way to stop and application from re titling i m quite familiar with a variety of window title setting methods my question is is there any way via resources etc to stop an application s ability to re name it s own name iconname properties who cares if it s not nice to the application i want control mike mike hoswell hoswell ncar ucar edu never stop toasted bagels climate and global dynamics disclaimer i represent myself only ncar po box boulder co so i ve got that going for me which is nice think clearly
comp.windows.x	help i am just beginning to try using the athena toolkit and am having some problems getting started i think that some files are missing on the system but there is the possibility that they are just in a different directory when i try to link my program it can t find xtinitailize xtrealizewidget xtmainloop xtcreatemanagedwidget or commandwidgetclass i ve included intrinsic h and command h i also had a problem on compile with xtncallback but replaced that with a null in order to compile and see if there were any other problems i haven t used a toolkit before and this is simply an example i got from the manuel can someone tell me where i might look for these calls that is in what file not what directory they are supposed to be under because the system manager doesn t believe in standard directories and generally does things his own way i am using unix thank you for your assistance t j adamsson
comp.windows.x	xdec x r server and decstation sans decnet has anybody built an x r server that can run on a personal decstation line with ultrix the only catch is that being personal machines we did not install decnet onto them which the xdec server on gatekeeper requires any replies welcome joe shelby stu jwshelby vax acs jmu edu
comp.windows.x	re uimx a motif application generator thanks for all the responses i ve made contact with the uk distributor paul mahoney x act solutions limited smail shipley lane cooden bexhill on sea east sussex tn sr email ptm xact demon co uk pmahoney cix compulink co uk phone
comp.windows.x	re blinking cursor in xterm in article may griffin itc gu edu au michaelw itc gu edu au writes does anyone have any ideas that may be implemented to help prevent users from losing sight of the cursor in an xterm window under certain circumstances where there are many screen based fields what i would like to do is make the cursor flash on or off but so far haven t found a way of doing so has anybody else had similar problems or fixes to make a cursor stand out more than the standard type users can t find the cursor run xneko it ll turn the cursor into a mouse rodent variety if your users still can t find it the cat will greg earle phone fax internet earle isolar tujunga ca us uucp isolar earle elroy jpl nasa gov a k a elroy isolar earle
comp.windows.x	re search for decent x based text editor in article lv sh innr e dimebox cs utexas edu spatel cs utexas edu semir patel writes ok i am looking for a decent x based text editor for the the following reasons o i hate emacs o i hate vi o i hate xedit coming from a pc based environment having been brought up on borland s excellent turbo c pascal environments something with the following properties would fit the bill o pull down menus o accelerator keys o multiple windows o mouse aware o regular exp support o mappable key bindings o easy to use o and most important of all free does such a beast exist sure sounds like axe to me michael salmon include standard disclaimer include witty saying include fancy pseudo graphics ericsson telecom ab stockholm
comp.windows.x	re blinking cursor in xterm in may ims com tonyf ims com antonio freixas writes in article may taylor uucp mark taylor uucp mark a davis writes oh boy have i wanted this too however i believe that the cursor will be under the server s control could be wrong on an xterminal for example if the server was not the one controlling the cursor then trying to get the xterm application to do the blinking would cause needless and yucky network overhead consistantly most people who write cursor blinking code just implement the simple case a straight msec or so on off cycle however the cursor will work much better if cursor blinking is suppressed i e the cursor is made visible any time the cursor moves and for to sec thereafter if you don t do this the cursor will be hard to track when in motion you allways could port and use emu from export lcs mit edu contrib emu tar z we ve implemented a blinking text cursor for the very reasons people mentioned you can even configure the actual size of the text cursor horizontal ver tical line cursors smaller block cursors turn on and off blinking set the blink rate and so on you even get blinking text ok enough advertising i haven t looked at the xterm code in this respect but from the memories i have when we had to decide whether to start with xterm and make it do what we wanted mostly the blinking text i d say it won t be easy since xterm is a hairy mess understandable if you follow it s roots back to x the actual task to get the cursor to blink isn t that difficult if you provide the right hooks as antonio mentioned you ll have to show the cursor directly after it has moved or people will become confused since it s a good idea to take the cursor off the screen when you do anything on screen anyways this isn t very complicated you ll just have to start the blink process with the cursor showing directly after it s mapped as for the portability of emu and it s newest version the one on export is still the same as on the r contrib tape we wanted to get out a new release for over six months now but unfortunately we re drowning in work but since the changes aren t affectiong emu s behavior much i d say whoever wants to try emu shouldn t wait for a new version as is emu won t work on bsd derived systems e g suns with anything else than a csh there is a fix to this which is very short remove one line of code i ll put this on export today michael michael elbel digital pcs gmbh muenchen germany me dude pcs com intelligenz is sowieso nur wat fuer doofe mia fermentation fault coors dumped
comp.windows.x	re problems with xdm under x r solaris db sunbim be danny backx writes yes that is a bug in the x r port of xterm you sometimes get this when you start from xdm i have reported this to casper but don t know whether it made it into his set of patches yet basically in mit clients xterm main c there is a test at line which checks errno after attempting to open dev tty add the errno einval case to it and you should be fine it s actually a bug in the solaris kernel we could add a workaround to xterm open should never return einval but it does i didn t have time to update the r sunos patch lately but non of the existing problems seem to warrant a new set of patches since xsession is a bourne shell script anyway you might as well add a line etc timezone as it is done in etc profile xdm coulda also keep the xdm environment variable it should have inherited it from the environment casper
comp.windows.x	re patch for x r under solaris cfl buc edu au colin linahan writes hi sorry if this is a faq but could someone please tell me where i can get the patch es for x r so that i can compile it under solaris export lcs mit edu contrib r sunos patch tar z get xsun multi screen tar z while you re at it casper
comp.windows.x	re looking for x windows on a pc in article boutilie graphite boutilie rtsg mot com eric boutilier writes pm longs lance colostate edu peter j mckinney writes price pc xview for dos for for ncd just announced a new generation of pc xview they changed the name a little though and i can t remember exactly pc xsomething it now supports windows and their press release implies that since it s still priced in the range and it s so feature full why buy anything else disclaimer this is not a direct quote from the literature but i think it sums it up also i have never used the product it s called pc xware it is based on ncd ware their x terminal software which imho is excellent pc xware will include x remote and be optimized for bit machines it s x r based it will support remote management etc not an ncd employee just a fan edward j gallant iii georgia tech station atlanta georgia e mail egallant cc gatech edu phone
comp.windows.x	x r pl and sun i works but not on the screen hello i have a problem with x r on a sun i an i hope that someone can help me with it i ve built x from the mit sources after applying all patches i have got i think building was easy after installing everything i started x but nothing happened but the screen and the keyboard freezed the machine seemed to hang i loged in from another machine an found the sun i running well ps told me that there s a x server and a xterm running and with some experimenting with the mouse and repeatedly pressing d i blindly hit the xterm endet the session and got my prompt back i guess it s a device problem but i did not find the correct device yet i ve got a sun i with a b w framebuffer ace v rev sunos and rom please help me i m able to run clients on the sun and send the output to other machines but that s not what i did it for thanks in advance stefan
comp.windows.x	monitor freq requirment for xfree repost i need some advice regarding monitor to use with xfree i have an et based graphic card with meg of memory i know this card is supported in xfree because a friend of mine has one of these in his pc his monitor is colour capable of displaying x resolution i cant afford this kind of expensive monitor i heard from somewhere that xfree requires multisync monitor with minimum horizontal scan frequency of khz is this true i would only like to use xfree at resolution of x in colours and so was thinking of buying a cheap svga monitor interlaced cheap svga monitors only have have maximum horizontal scan frequency of about khz will this kind of monitor work with xfree please reply by email thaks in advance arshad arshad mahmood tel siemens nixdorf information systems limited fax siemens nixdorf house email arshad sni co uk oldbury bracknell berkshire rg fz england
comp.windows.x	color tektronics term emulation does anyone know of an x based terminal emulator which can emulate a color tektronics graphics terminal such as tek or tek etc
comp.windows.x	x on dos or windows i m posting this request again since the last one had no title i m looking for x server software on dos or windows i ve already seen desqview x and xvision but would like to be aware of other solutions namely public domain or shareware implementations i d also like to know in the commercial case about possible problems incompatibilities available window managers and libraries etc if you have any experiences in this area please let me know c u by e mario valente
comp.windows.x	re button popup menus with athena widgets ok i m being driven batty trying to create popup menus ie button press and a menu appears i would really like to use the standard athena classes to achieve this goal but for my best attempts i cannot get the menus to come up without using a menubutton as the parent of the widget tree i know this should be possible to to with an xtpopupspringloaded and a little twiddling but something is escaping me read the documentation for the simplemenu positioning the simplemenu the reference is to the r documentation i had not done this before but in less than mins i knocked up the following wcl application that does what you want using a command widget even if you are not familiar with wcl the example is so simple it should be pretty obvious what is going on the crucial thing is the use of the xawpositionsimplemenu and menupopup actions ari wcchildren app app wccreate command app wcpopups menu app translations override n btn down xawpositionsimplemenu menu menupopup menu menu wccreate simplemenu menu wcchildren one two three one wccreate smebsb two wccreate smebsb three wccreate smebsb jim j k wight newcastle ac uk department of computing science university of newcastle tel newcastle upon tyne ne ru united kingdom fax
comp.windows.x	re copyrights there will always be a zillion lawyers who if they get paid well enough will sue your brains out gosh can t anyone send them off to another planet well maybe it would be better to just send apple microsoft and a few others that way we would get rid of some terrible products as well d jda nada kth se drag n drop dead johan danielsson
comp.windows.x	re seeking a simple wm in article may nenuphar saclay cea fr basile soleil serma cea fr basile starynkevitch writes i m seeking a simple window manager icccm compliant with a minimal doc i don t want ol wm twm gwm twm whatever happened to uwm is it still available in some form it s been years since i used it or heard anyone talk about it paul pmartz dsd es com evans sutherland
comp.windows.x	re looking for x windows on a pc hasty netcom com amancio hasty jr writes but your performance will suck lemons running an xserver on a clone i have a clone almost with no name generating k xstones on a mhz system show me the realistic price tag i can get tektronix xp terminals for under and the performance is over xstones excuse me but with a k cache s isa card mb xs x r running bsd you can get k xstones at x mhz which i doubt nice but way over my point is price performance not just performance mark a davis lake taylor hospital norfolk va x sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp
comp.windows.x	re looking for x windows on a pc in article may labtam labtam oz au graeme labtam labtam oz au graeme gill writes in article hastyc zgqc fux netcom com hasty netcom com amancio hasty jr writes but your performance will suck lemons running an xserver on a clone i have a clone almost with no name generating k xstones on a mhz system i can get tektronix xp terminals for under and the performance is over xstones you will not come even close to the performance of an xp series plus you excuse me but with a k cache s isa card mb xs x r running bsd you can get k xstones at x mhz which i doubt this is hardly apples to apples try running the benchmark over a network to the clone and and if you re still getting k xstones then you ve got a good machine x terminals aren t just a server you know graeme gill i would further add that a s mb mbdisk is going to cost way more than probably color makes it not apples apples too xterminals provide better price performance than pcs you can make a pc much cheaper and perform much worse and you can make pc s perform great and cost more you pay extra for the additional functinality and expandability of a pc for home user that extra functionality is worth the added cost kelly murray
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comp.windows.x	multi line greeting is it possible to have xdm put up a multi line greeting if so how do i specify such a thing in the xresources file i don t have much anything for x books so i can t look it up thanks mark van overbeke systems software programmer computing services bitnet mark umnmor bitnet vms university of minnesota morris internet mark caa mrs umn edu vms morris mn mark cda mrs umn edu ultrix success is the progressive realization of your worthwhile goal or dream
comp.windows.x	colors and x windows aicons extract from the color readme file for anthony s icon library for network discussion color coordination i tried to start a discussion in comp windows x at the start of the year about some sort of standard color table that icons should follow say to colors including colors for a small grey scale but no one responded at all the problem is that if the colors for icons are just used willy nilly you will soon find that the workstations color table devotes itself solely the window manager icons and other adminstrative tasks instead of applications that actually require the colors for proper working color needful applications such as picture and graphic displayers animation real time video raytracers etc the following is a suggested color table for icons and general use icons window managers and general applications should follow this table or something like it unless the application is color needful for each primary color red green blue three colors eg values and this results in colors representing most of the standard colors for use in icons two extra shades of grey eg vales black and white red other colors probably of some primary color to provide shading a and d look to buttons and titlebars in the window manager this table represents colors and represents a large range of posibilities for the above administrative services of the workstation anthony thyssen sysprog griffith university anthony cit gu edu au a gods idea of amusement is a snakes ladders game with greased rungs terry pratchett wyrd sisters
comp.windows.x	re automatically configuring display variable ainman css itd umich edu andrew douglas inman writes does anyone out there know of a way to have a unix machine automatically set it s display variable to that of the xterm you re using when it s not the machine that s serving you x the best i ve been able to come up with has been a rather convoluted script that extracts your ip from the whos command and it frequently fails not to mention that it requires having your user name added to it andrew inman consultant itd consulting and support services ainman umich edu university of michigan from my own notes on this subject methods to automatically passwd authorization from one machine to another this also includes the problem of notifing the remote host of the current display that is being used use rsh rexec on the method in the xauth manual set up the your rhosts file in the home directory on the remote machine so that a password in not required to remotly execute commands xauth extract display rsh other xauth merge this method is also used by xrsh to pass authorization my vampire program also uses a variation however i wrap it as part of the remote command sequence eg xauth add auth included in this method is the use of xrlogin and xrsh to do this job for you these programs usally the newer ones that is allow you to pass a secified list of environment variables which includes the display and or a copy of the authorization code required the xon program available if enabled on sun machines will also pass environment variables as well as the current directory you will however be required to store the authority in such a variable for passing unless you are also have shared home directories warning environment variables and command line arguments are visible in ps listing with the appropiate flags as such passing authorization information in environment variables or as arguments is not recomended the recommended method as given in the manual shown above is safe from the view of other users wrap it as part of the term environment variable this method uses the fact that most remote command executors do pass the term environment variable to the remote host it is then a matter of an appropiate script in your remote login file to extract the information from the term environment variable and set up things appropiatly a version of the xrlogin script is available on the network which does this basically you change the term environment variable before the actual call to rlogin is performed to include your display and your authorization on the remote machine you then extract this information and return the term environment variable to normal before you use it for reseting or stty ing your terminal script for launching rlogin bin sh bin rl rlogin with display if n display then case display in display hostname display esac term term display xauth nextract display export term fi rlogin add to your cshrc or login if term then if echo term tr cd then echo term cut d f xauth nmerge setenv display echo term cut d f setenv term echo term cut d f endif endif xterm command to use xterm t hostname e bin rl hostname nfs write it to a file on a shared nfs partition you have access to note that if the home directories are nfs mounted then authorization is automatically passed hoever you will still have to pass your display environment variable via a file or other means ie login host echo display x host remote host setenv display cat x host finger for the info in a plan file this involves encrypting the information into your plan or project and having the remote machine finger for the information this has the disadvantage of having the information to anyone fingering the user thus requiring a encryption method that is uniq to each individual ie the method of decyrption must not be shared or known by others nor should it be easy to determine a improvment is to use the who fingered me technique to only give the information only to your own remote accounts and not just to anyone who is asking this last method was developed last year by a second year here untill i explained to him the need for the encryption at which point he gave up this method it is however a valid method it is easer than but less secure anthony thyssen sysprog griffith university anthony cit gu edu au magic is real unless declared an integer john p melvin
comp.windows.x	re viewing postscript files under x windows on the subject of ghostscript it will also solve the earlier request of converting postscript to hpgl to filter into interleaf david warren internet warren atmos washington edu uucp uw beaver atmos washington edu warren dept of atmospheric sciences ak university of washington decus e pubs library committee representative sealug decus vice chair
comp.windows.x	vxt windowing terminal help e g l i n a f b from dennis l hart date may pm cst hart tel no dept ccsg scwa sas to internet addressee smtp xpert expo lcs mit edu subject vxt windowing terminal help greetings we have several vxt windowing terminals and associated software on our network we are able to open a lat terminal window to any of our workstation nodes but we are unable to get a lat x session to work we have customized the terminal security to allow all lat connections trying to invoke a lat x session from the vxt results in the following message being displayed in the terminal manager window message area host does not support x sessions the host is a vax model and does support x sessions opening a lat terminal window and logging into the server node setting the display variable as follows set display create node lat transport lat and then trying to create a decterm on the vxt as follows create term decterm detach fails and gives the following error message dectermport failed to find language xopendisplay returned null decw f cant open displ can t open display the vxt is using its system defaults ie default font s language except for the security options to allow all connections and options enabling lat protocol we have vt windowing terminals and the above things were enough to allow lat x sessions vms version is running decwindows motif of vax model s please help dennis hart atlantic research corporation directorate of computer sciences eglin afb fl
comp.windows.x	need help compiling xtmenu i am having trouble compiling xtmenu i am running on a sparc ipc using sunos and openwindows i am getting undefined references to arguments to xtsetarg such as xttextedit xttextread etc am i using the wrong version of a library missing an include file any help would be greatly appreciated jeff jeff whitmire man is the best computer we email jwhit wbst e xerox com can put aboard a spacecraft phone and the only one that snailmail salt road c can be mass produced with webster ny unskilled labor wernher von braun
comp.windows.x	re seeking a simple wm pmartz dsd es com paul martz writes in article basile soleil serma cea fr basile starynkevitch writes i m seeking a simple window manager icccm compliant with a minimal doc i don t want ol wm twm gwm twm whatever happened to uwm is it still available in some form it s been years since i used it or heard anyone talk about it i m positive that uwm isn t icccm compliant if you want it the r sources are still available on export lcs mit edu in pub r kaleb
comp.windows.x	help with porting screensaver function this is a question aimed at those who have done some server code hacking i am attempting to add a working savescreen function to a new server i have been able to get the screen to blank out properly and through debugging i can see that my savescreen function is being called with on which for some arcane reason means to blank the screen my problem is that this function is never being called again with on even after i have moved the mouse and or typed some keys my question is what am i likely to be missing that would cause this problem i copied the basic design of my function from the existing versions static bool next savescreen scr on screenptr scr bool on this was copied from the omron server code is it the right way if on screen saver on nextsetlasteventtime if on screen saver on save user s current setting next save screen brightness nxscreenbrightness my eventhandle nxsetscreenbrightness my eventhandle blank the screen else unblank the screen nxsetscreenbrightness my eventhandle next save screen brightness return true i can see in the server os code where the screensaver is called to turn on the saver but i cannot find where it wakes up the server and unblanks the screen any tips help would be appreciated thanks douglas scott center for computer music research and composition university of california santa barbara internet nextmail ok doug foxtrot ccmrc ucsb edu
comp.windows.x	re blinking cursor in xterm bernward moepi do open de bernward averwald writes yes don t confuse the mouse cursor with the text cursor in the xterms the latter is only controlled by the application back in the days of x i did analyse the xterm code the cursor was implemented by drawing a rectangle around the character i doesn t seem to be changed til now but if you have the sources you could add a blinking cursor via xtappaddtimeout or similar xt app addtimeout doesn t work in xterm because despite appearances to the contrary xterm is not really an xt based application other sources like timeouts and inputs are never checked in xterm s main loop so don t be surprised when you try this and it doesn t work kaleb
comp.windows.x	re ics widget data book in article may nordic offshore no olav nordic offshore no jan olav eide writes does anyone know how i can obtain information about the ics widget data book i only have their email address and they don t seem to be reading or replying to their mail ics integrated computer solutions incorporated broadway cambridge ma vox fax email info ics com circle on reader service card mike mcgary mcgary intellection com intellection inc dallas texas vox fax
comp.windows.x	re xterm fonts bernward moepi do open de bernward averwald writes in article may taylor uucp mark taylor uucp mark a davis writes i have a problem which many of you might have run into we use lots of ascii terminals and use them to the max meaning lots of attributes line this means needing all attributes to work including bold and line drawing the only fonts which seem to meet these criteria are a pairs of fonts in which one is bold and the other normal while both have linedraw fixed spacing and several sizes the only standard fonts which work are the fonts like x and x b under misc they work great except i need a font one size larger x now x works well but there is no bold counterpart you don t need a bold counterpart from man xterm fb font this option specifies a font to be used when dis playing bold text this font must be the same height and width as the normal font if only one of the normal or bold fonts is specified it will be used as the normal font and the bold font will be produced by overstriking this font the default is to do overstriking of the normal font i have tried that with one font if your xterm terminfos termcaps are set up to not remap bold which they are be default to reverse then nothing happens when bold is displayed it would appear at least in x r than you cannot display bold in an xterm without specifying two fonts a normal and a bold i wish someone would prove that incorrect mark a davis lake taylor hospital norfolk va x sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp
comp.windows.x	sun openwindows problem static linking and x libraries i build two executables for the same application let s call them papp uses shared libs and spapp statically linked the problem is that i get problems when trying to build the static one but not the dynamic one see the trace below btw the static one runs fine despite the ominous error message can someone clue me in as to why the static one bombs at link time thanks very much sandiway dr sandiway fong nec research institute inc independence way princeton nj fax here is the linking stage usr quintus bin sun ld e start bstatic papp o usr quintus generic qplib library sun libpl a usr quintus generic qplib library sun libplm a usr quintus bin sun libqp a lsspkg lxpm lm l usr local guide lib lguidexv lxvps lxview lolgx lx lxext lcps lc lpixrect o spapp undefined xesetcreategc xesetfreefont xesetclosedisplay xeseterror xinitextension xesetfreegc xesetcopygc xesetcreatefont xesetflushgc xeseteventtowire xeseterrorstring xesetwiretoevent error code make fatal error command failed for target spapp ldd spapp spapp statically linked the shared lib version is linked in exactly the same way save for the omission of bstatic ldd papp lsspkg usr local lib libsspkg so lxpm usr local lib libxpm so lxvps usr openwin lib libxvps so lxview usr openwin lib libxview so lolgx usr openwin lib libolgx so lx usr openwin lib libx so lcps usr openwin lib libcps so lc usr lib libc so lpixrect usr lib libpixrect so ldl usr lib libdl so
comp.windows.x	re online help motif widget d e bucky pnl gov je pelkey writes i am looking for online help motif widgets public domain or otherwise to run on a sun sparc i d be especially interested in help widgets that can integrate hypertext help graphics etc i know that some of the gui builders like galaxy come with online help widgets but i need to check into stand alone help widgets as well seeing as how we have not picked a gui tool yet anybody know of any widgets like this x resource issue thanh ma tma encore com
comp.windows.x	re any way to stop and application from re titling in article may colorado edu hoswell alumni cs colorado edu mike hoswell writes i m quite familiar with a variety of window title setting methods my question is is there any way via resources etc to stop an application s ability to re name it s own name iconname properties sorry that s a feature the icccm specifies how the app should set its title so the wm is obliged to do it if this bothers you complain to the app writer who cares if it s not nice to the application i want control write your own wm that doesn t support the icccm or write an program that you give a window id and a title the your program can set the windows title for the app and then if the app changes it your program switches it back again mike mike hoswell hoswell ncar ucar edu never stop toasted bagels climate and global dynamics disclaimer i represent myself only ncar po box boulder co so i ve got that going for me which is nice think clearly carl schmidtmann faultline software group inc karo court cws faultline com apple decwrl gigo cws sunnyvale ca
comp.windows.x	gui builders for vms i am looking for gui builders uims s which run in a vms openvms environment i am interested in both motif tools and gui independent tools such as xvt my client also requires that the tool has been in production for at least months in the vms environment note that i have the list of tools from the faq but not the info on vms availability thanks mark d collier southwest research institute senior research analyst automation and data systems division voice data systems department fax software engineering section
comp.windows.x	xnlock xdm i am using xnlock as the screensaver for a pc based x server however after an interval of no activity my x session ends this does not happen when i use xscreensaver my screensave command is fired up from my xsession like this xautolock time locker xnlock corners cornerdelay my hypothesis is that xdm i use xdmcp to start my x session detects a period of inactivity from the server then terminates the session however for some reason this does not happen with xscreensaver is there a workaround i d prefer responses via e mail thanks economics is not for those who are atracted to real world problems which have simple and clear solutions for these individuals i recommend astrology hugo sonnenschein
comp.windows.x	detecting saving geometry changes hi i m trying to get my program to monitor resize position events so that when the program exits i can save the last known geometry in some sort of preferences file i am adding an event handler for structurenotify to the toplevelshell xtaddeventhandler toplevel structurenotifymask false configurecb mydata this works fine and my callback is called whenever the window is resized or repositioned using the window manager mwm however when i m just resizing the window using any resize handle on the window manager resize decoration the x and y are set to zero in the xevent passed to the event handler callback i m accessing the xconfigure structure like the x manual says xev xconfigure x xev xconfigure y the width and height memebers are correct when i reposition the window using the window manager the xevent s xconfigure structure contains all the correct x y width height member settings q anybody know why when just resizing the x and y are being set to zero q any other way to handle detecting and saving geometry changes i ve tried using xtgetvalues on the toplevel widget when exiting my application before destroying any widgets and all i get is garbage values for the x y width height resources thanks bob ross ross li loral com mr plow that s the name that name loral instrumentation san diego ca again is mr plow homer simpson
comp.windows.x	xkernel on sun has anyone built xkernel for s it works great on our s and i would just as soon kiss the entire sun architeture goodbye and reclaim a bunch of disk space email me direct i ll post a summary mickey boyd systems administrator florida state university mathematics department email boyd math fsu edu office pager
comp.windows.x	re dump x window screen h j hong hjhong ev ev nctu edu tw wrote hi i m looking for a tool to dump a x window screen image any one can help me see xwd xpr even better grab xdump from ftp cs uwm edu it makes use of these programs as well but has a much nicer interface and can do more you can dump to postscript bitmaps etc mickey boyd systems administrator florida state university mathematics department email boyd math fsu edu office pager
comp.windows.x	x terminal faq subject what is the current state of the world in x terminals jim morton jim applix com posts quarterly to comp windows x a list of manufacturers and terminals it includes pricing information can somebody send me a copy of this faq thanks alot da
comp.windows.x	keycode wrong for xkeyreleasedevent i am writing a x based dosemu which requires xkeyreleasedevent i found the keycode of xkeyreleasedevent is wrong if i run the program on a linux host xfree with display set to the local linux and to the sun host x r the two keycodes from the two xservers are different of course the keycode of xkeypressedevent is o k can anybody verify this did i do anything wrong thanks edward der hua liu cs department national taiwan university taiwan dhliu solar csie ntu edu tw
comp.windows.x	re viewing postscript files under x windows in article gordons mon gordons mon sps mot com gordon sasamori writes in c tgoj j inmet camb inmet com gjs corsica camb inmet com george snyder writes in article sk rinnptb polaris isi com kin isi com kin cho writes i wonder if anybody know of a x window based postscript file viewer that runs under sunos prefered hpux or ibm aix if you are running sun openwindows you can use pageview this is an x window postscript previewer like ghostview but displays much nicer yes but it s broken on ow it does not handle multiple pages well if you don t have the proper postscript commands it will draw the entire document on the same page instead of pausing after each page i haven t tried ow yet though ow is the same but the definition of broken is relative pageview requires dsc compliant postscript files in order to stop at page breaks i don t consider that broken i say that any program that puts out a postscript file that isn t dsc compliant is broken harvard ucbvax uwvax astroatc ftms brown or uu psi com ftms brown rutgers internet brown wi extrel com or ftms brown astroatc uucp cs wisc edu
comp.windows.x	re imake rules problem under solaris dple lungta infores com david levine writes hey folks i m attempting to use imake to manage makefiles for a development effort and was curious to find out if anybody else is experiencing problems with any target that has subdirs generated by imake on solaris platforms for example make makefiles chokes in the very first subdirectory i e target subdirmakefiles not found you don t give the precise error message but i assume that the making of the target fails because make can t find the rules we ve seen this happen with sunos x make as well and aat this point i m not sure why it happens it seems to happen with large makefiles the entries near the end get lost small changes in the makefile will remedy this problem as it does in your example in the mit r distribution r sunos patch this can happen with the target makefiles in one of the doc directories at first i thought this was a bug with make on my sun but i built and used gnumake with the same results attached you ll find the first makefiles target rule from the generated makefile this is really weird are your really sure that you were using gnu make casper
comp.windows.x	somebody please help me hello i hope this is the right group to post this in i ve got a little problem i finally managed to get a real operating system linux as opposed to ms dos and i like it alot but when i try to run startx i get a strange response my monitor goes into graphics mode and i get this big white rectangle on the screen that s all nothing else now i ve collected almost every faq in the world to help me but either it s too confusing or i must be missing something my setup dx about mhz trident c svga w meg mb ram plenty of hd space any help is appreciated thanx
comp.windows.x	x shared libraries and replacing modules in them hi i m wonderring if it is possible to replace a single module as xkeybind o in a shared library as libx so in suns openwindows i tried to rtfm but i didn t get any wiser that way also can i do the same on an rs machine running if it is possible at all i know how to do it with real libraries ar i am trying to replace xlookupstring in the delivered libraries with another that does a few special things per per andersson ppan celsiustech se perand stacken kth se on free time managing networks and occasionally suns at but not speaking for celsiustech ab j rf lla sweden
comp.windows.x	re blinking cursor in xterm as quoted from may moepi do open de by bernward moepi do open de bernward averwald back in the days of x i did analyse the xterm code the cursor was implemented by drawing a rectangle around the character i doesn t seem to be changed til now but if you have the sources you could add a blinking cursor via xtappaddtimeout or similar the server overhead for this is mildly ridiculous though see also desqview x which does this in its dos windows do you really want xterm to wake up every half second and whack the server into doing a bitblt brandon
comp.windows.x	re outline scalable fonts versus bitmap replicated scalable fonts after looking at the scaling code i realized the follwing my problem with the resolution x foints is due to an installation problem that the x server or font server will rescale the best font it can find to meet your requirements this means that if you server return a response like the following adobe helvetica medium o normal p iso you can ask for the follwogin adobe helvetica medium o normal p iso and it will generate it for you you should try to always use known pixel sizes bill jones
comp.windows.x	re c motif gcc silly messages thanks to everyone who mailed help unfortunately the end problem was a really stupid oversight on my behalf the code was perfect but it might help to add control c to my makefile anyway the mangled name was telling me it could nt locate the control constructor i just want to reaffirm what a valuable book this one is i m enjoying evry page
comp.windows.x	re x on dos or windows in article psg com mvalente draco lnec pt writes i m posting this request again since the last one had no title i m looking for x server software on dos or windows i ve already seen desqview x and xvision but would like to be aware of other solutions namely public domain or shareware implementations i d also like to know in the commercial case about possible problems incompatibilities available window managers and libraries etc if you have any experiences in this area please let me know c u by e mario valente try linux available on the internet
comp.windows.x	re viewing postscript files under x windows in ftms uucp brown ftms uucp vidiot writes ow is the same but the definition of broken is relative pageview requires dsc compliant postscript files in order to stop at page breaks i don t consider that broken i say that any program that puts out a postscript file that isn t dsc compliant is broken well that may be true however the man page for pageview for ow does not mention about dsc compliance in any event the point here is that if you try to display some ps files using pageview you will find out that it s not a practical tool v v v v v v v gordon t sasamori hc csic mcu design email gordons ai sps mot com nippon motorola ltd voice fax
comp.windows.x	including color pixmap xpm files in my application is there a portable and convenient way to use color picture files in the xpm format to define an x pixmap in a motif application any functions pointers tips etc would be most welcome saad mufti personal library software e mail mufti pls com
comp.windows.x	mswindows xwindows conversion hi all i ve heard of a commercial package named zink that could convert ms windows source code to xwindows source code c the only problem is the package isn t available in holland at least i can t find it anywhere is there another package preferrably free or shareware that can do the same thing and if so where can i find or buy it thanks in advance arjen
comp.windows.x	drawing networks graphs are there any widgets function librarys for drawing networks graphs etc not tree views freeware shareware comercial like this for instance o o o o o o o o o o just by giving the associations between the nodes automatic layout generation it would be nice if any node symbols could be used maybe even to insert widgets as nodes using different line styles etc for describing associations any information would be appreciated thanks in advance jorgen jorgen eriksson eua ericsson se
comp.windows.x	compiling ghostview under sun openwindows due it seems to sun s crapulous organisation of the x libraries and includes most standard gnu and other software won t compile out of the box well tar file right now i m trying to make ghostview it complains it can t find x xaw so i just linked ln s the files from usr openwin share include x and now the ghoddam thing still complains it can t find them i still haven t been able to compile xdvi not no way has anyone ever managed to get anything normal to compile on a sun sunos and openwindows what s the trick i m missing i ve even tried hard copying all the relevant files into the right places and every time there s some bit missing or it refuses to find it peter
comp.windows.x	help needed callbacks actions and events i understood that there are two methods to connect application code to widgets callbacks and actions the problem i face now is that i have a quite long piece of application code that performs a lot of drawing into a window i want to connect this to a widget no problem so far i could use a callback function or an action to do this processing any events afterwards but because the drawing takes some while i want the application code sequence to be able to be interrupted by events then i want to handle the events and resume with processing the application code at the point it was interrupted it seems to me that this isn t possible but how can i give the user the impression that his inputs are immediately processed has anybody an idea please answer via e mail thanks in advance soenke soenke voss faculty of economics soenke wiwi uni bielefeld de university of bielefeld w bielefeld germany the only difference between me and a madman is that i am not mad salvador dali
comp.windows.x	re blinking cursor in xterm in t dndinnmsd senator bedfellow mit edu steve mcmahon launchpad unc edu writes on fri may gmt me dude pcs com michael elbel said me as is emu won t work on bsd derived systems e g suns with me anything else than a csh there is a fix to this which is very me short remove one line of code i ll put this on export today it s more than that actually in the version on export one cannot just specify a posix tty behaviour the posix config files are incomplete without those of some specific platforms like suns and decs i looked twice at porting emu to linux but stopped short becuse of the tty part is there a cleaner version of emu that supports posix tty explicitly hmm depends on how you define clean jordan implemented the system dependent stuff in a way that you have basic implementations for call it operating system types then you go ahead and write a include file for your specific machine or operating system using the basic implementations since both jordan and i haven t encountered a os flavor yet that is fully posix we haven t gotten around to really implement and test a top level include file specifically for just posix the posix routines are used in the sun specific file tty sun i for example but here we also use some bsd stuff all in all it still is probably better to implement a include file for each and every operating system than ifdef ing in existing ones the type of mess that can result from that can clearly be seen in the xterm sources even if quite a bit of code gets copied almost unchanged a couple of times this only uses up some disk space since only the drivers actually included from the toplevel include file will be compiled into emu it shouldn t be hard to come up with a tty linux i file that fully relies on the posix stuff but unfortunately i don t have a linux system available to me so i can t do the port myself i would suggest you read the readme in term sysdep and if you have any problems or questions contact me and we could try to sort this out unfortunately we have to rely on help from the net on this part of emu since we just don t have access to that many different systems michael michael elbel digital pcs gmbh muenchen germany me dude pcs com intelligenz is sowieso nur wat fuer doofe mia fermentation fault coors dumped
comp.windows.x	creating your own colormap i e lookup table in x r hello below i have the copy of some source i am using to setup a user specified color map for x r v i am attempting to create user defined colors in terms of rgb color ranges the calls to xalloccolor prove ineffective variables are defined are as follows int i j k lut index color type min image max image color type image pixel value range last image start end jump lut unsigned long pixel double red green blue data structure used by color operations typedef struct unsigned long pixel unsigned short red green blue char flags do red do green do blue char pad xcolor xcolor rgbcolor hardwarecolor with color type defined as double red double green double blue what i need to know is how to set is it possible the values in hardwarecolor to work within the call to xalloccolor start red int min image red end red int max image red jump red int end red start red start green int min image green end green int max image green jump green int end green start green start blue int min image blue end blue int max image blue jump blue int end blue start blue lut index for i i i for j j j for k k k if i jump red lut lut index red start red else lut lut index red jump red i if j jump green lut lut index green start green else lut lut index green jump green j if k jump blue lut lut index blue start blue else lut lut index blue jump blue k hardwarecolor red short lut lut index red hardwarecolor green short lut lut index green hardwarecolor blue short lut lut index blue hardwarecolor pixel lut index printf hw i d d d d pixel d n lut index hardwarecolor red hardwarecolor green hardwarecolor blue hardwarecolor pixel status xalloccolor dpy colormap hardwarecolor printf hw i d d d d pixel d n lut index hardwarecolor red hardwarecolor green hardwarecolor blue hardwarecolor pixel if status xsetforeground dpy gc hardwarecolor pixel xfillrectangle dpy win gc maxcolumn maxrow xflush dpy sleep printf d f f f at d n lut index lut lut index re lut lut index green lut lut index blue hardwarecolor pixel lut index lut index thanks in advance to anyone who can help me with this problem sincerely john f duggan john f duggan alias genghis khan engineering computer services internet duggan ecs umass edu univ of massachusetts amherst ma bitnet duggan umaecs
comp.windows.x	program to display gif files it seems silly but while i ve located things like tgif that can edit gif files and various tools to convert to from gif format i haven t been able to locate a program that just opens a window and displays a gif file in it i ve looked thru various faq files also to no avail is there one lurking about in some archive nothing sophisticated just show the pretty picture alternatively if i could locate the specs for gif i don t suppose it would be too hard to write it myself but i have no idea where to even start looking for the spec well actually i do have an idea this newsgroup if the auto industry were like the computer industry a car would now cost would get miles to the gallon and at random times would explode killing all its passengers
comp.windows.x	svr xclients won t work under svr repost when i changed from svr to svr on my intel box i discovered that some of my svr xclients such as xload etc would no longer work they bomb out with the message error can t open display unix is this because they can t find the correct shared libraries they need to be recompiled or have i not used the correct options both systems use x r thanks jack
comp.windows.x	re mac x and sun openwindows benj ossa hq nasa gov benjamin jones writes i ve run into a bit of a snag while trying to get mac x up and running and would appreciate any responses from anyone who may have seen this problem on my local network i have a number of macs suns and sgi machines i have installed macx mactcp on all of the macintoshes and can run xclients on the sgi machines all the live long day the problem is when i try to run an xclient on any sun i setup the command in macx then execute it nothing happens i don t even get any command output now i thought it might be a routing issue but i can run remote xclients on the suns from my sgi machines as well as vice versa i can also run remote xclients on sgi machines that are not on my local net here but the above problem holds true for non local suns as well i tried to send this as private mail but mail to benj ossa hq nasa gov was rejected so here it is here is an extract from the readme file that comes with macx users of remote commands with sun machines may find that their remote commands appear to do nothing and there is no output from the sun machine this is due to a feature of the sun rexecd network daemon which quietly disconnects from requesting machines that are not known to the sun s network address etc hosts or nis hosts database to successfully use remote commands with a sunos based machine there must be an entry in the network address database for the macintosh which is running macx stan kerr computing communications services office u of illinois urbana phone email stankerr uiuc edu
comp.windows.x	re drawing networks graphs in article may eua ericsson se tvtjet eua ericsson se jorgen eriksson writes are there any widgets function librarys for drawing networks graphs etc not tree views freeware shareware comercial like this for instance pretty picture deleted just by giving the associations between the nodes automatic layout generation it would be nice if any node symbols could be used maybe even to insert widgets as nodes using different line styles etc for describing associations check out the xmgraph library in the following location iworks ecn uiowa edu comp hp gui classic xmgraph tar z skip montanaro crd ge com
comp.windows.x	internationalization hi is there anybody has some example programs about using the internationalization features in x r such as a small x program just to show chinese texts in wondows menu bar or icons thanks in advance michael c hung
comp.windows.x	dvi viewers i need some help in tracking down a dvi viewer for x i have xdvi but we have not got the x libraries and includes installed so i is there a way around this as we are trying to avoid installing the stuff space is at a premium ii would someone be prepared to make the binaries available we have a hp and a hp thanks for any help michael carley dept of mech engineering tcd
comp.windows.x	summary how to make a window s input be all caps thanks to bruce barnett who recommended xvttool and bernward averwald and liam quin who recommended modifying xdefaults to get the desired behavior for a class of xterms in xvttool simply create a key file that looks like a a b b c c and specify said key file on the command line this will translate any input into any other in my case lo case to up case works great and you get a customizable button pad on the right or left side to use an xterm solution add to your xdefaults capxterm vt translations override key a string a n or capxterm vt translations override n key a insert string a n key b insert string b n and invoke as xterm name capxterm thanks loads kevin weinrich computer sciences corp kbw helios ath epa gov
comp.windows.x	re program to display gif files john chambers jc minya uucp wrote it seems silly but while i ve located things like tgif that can edit gif files and various tools to convert to from gif format i haven t been able to locate a program that just opens a window and displays a gif file in it i ve looked thru various faq files also to no avail is there one lurking about in some archive nothing sophisticated just show the pretty picture xv
comp.windows.x	looking for article i am urgently looking for the following article but i can t seem to find it anywhere here the multi threaded x server john allen smith the x resource issue pp winter if anyone can tell me where to find it it will be much appreciated h f sadie departement of computer science university of stellenbosch south africa e mail sadie itu sun ac za
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comp.windows.x	faq s could someone repost the faqs for this group please thanks ladislas
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comp.windows.x	re colors and x windows aicons excerpts from netnews comp windows x may re colors and x windows a john cwikla morrison wri the problem is that we need solutions for applications now and although i would love to have most of the things mentioned here somebody has to write it what i d like to see is this scenario each widget view whatever describes it s colors via a palette palettes can be shared and they only contain descriptive information they are not directly tied to the object that uses them palettes are held in the server a palette can accomadate up to the number of hardware color cells of color descriptors when the input focus is in a particular widget that widget has access to all of the colors that are described in its associated palette all other widgets transiently get the closest approximation that can be generated by a union of the colors from the current palette and any free colors that are left over a widget specifies a color for imaging by providing an index pixel into its associated palette the bold part above is hard and would need to be done in the server
comp.windows.x	xterm slave mode i am tunning into this newgroup after a long time could somebody tell me what the slave mode in the xterm is and what can it be used for any info where i can get more info or examples i want to use a bunch of xterms and send the input from one application to these xterms and get the output on the xterms please email me any info thanks lourdu
comp.windows.x	motif and ow compiling xcoral i ve built xcoral on my system sunos x r motif ow and it builds fine but when i run it any child windows that xcoral opens locks the mouse into the window area doesn t accept any input from the mouse needless to say this is a pain in the ass as i have to go find an empty terminal to login and kill xcoral is this a problem with openwindows or motif is there a patch bob campbell crayons can take you where no system manager starship can go hao ncar guinan rsc hao ucar edu sttng disclaimer my views are in no way connected to my employer a closed mouth gathers no feet unknown it only requires a little thought and a little work don hicks managing editor amazing computing
comp.windows.x	re help needed callbacks actions and events i understood that there are two methods to connect application code to widgets callbacks and actions the problem i face now is that i have a quite long piece of application code that performs a lot of drawing into a window i want to connect this to a widget no problem so far i could use a callback function or an action to do this processing any events afterwards but because the drawing takes some while i want the application code sequence to be able to be interrupted by events then i want to handle the events and resume with processing the application code at the point it was interrupted it seems to me that this isn t possible but how can i give the user the impression that his inputs are immediately processed use a workproc see xtappaddworkproc xt you should split your drawing routnie up into small chunks this is the hard part then in the callback that starts the drawing you call xtappaddworkproc to call your workproc the first time your workproc should be a function that returns a boolean true when you are finished and false when you want to keep processing if you return false the workproc is automatically re installed note that this method is better that using a time out loop since events get processed in a more precedence oriented manner if you are using the same ada bindings i am however you are hosed and should look into xtappaddtimeout xt joe hildebrand hildjj fuentez com software engineer fuentez systems concepts standard disclaimers apply
comp.windows.x	any free x servers for pcs does anyone know of any free x servers for pcs preferably that run under ms windows thanks peter buttuls university of alberta edmonton canada e mail userpib mts ucs ualberta ca
comp.windows.x	x shared libraries and replacing modules in them i know nothing about sun s but replacing pieces of libraries shared or not is straight forward on rs s all releases extract the appropriate pierce with ar rebind the o and replace with ar see info for details
comp.windows.x	makedepend problem hi netters we have a problem with makedepend it doesn t know how to correctly process if clause in c preprocessor statements it evaluates everything to true no matter what the conditionals are for example makedepend chokes on one of x include files as distributed by sun namely xos h if defined sunos defined stdc include string h define index strchr define rindex strrchr else bsd stdc include strings h endif sunos stdc here makedepend evaluates both if and corresponding else statements to true and tries to open the file strings h which doesn t exist under solaris we also have a lot of if statements in some of our legacy code we got and built makedepend off the net it didn t fix the problem in all fairness it should be noted that makdepend man page sun s distribution mentions this problem bugs if you do not have the source for cpp the berkeley c preprocessor then makedepend will be compiled in such a way that all if directives will evaluate to true regardless of their actual value this may cause the wrong include directives to be evaluated makedepend should simply have its own parser written for if expressions has anybody come up with some solution fix to makdepend other than writeyourownparser and willing to share it with us since we often experience delays in our newsfeed please reply directly to my e mail address i ll post a summary thanks in advance michael turok information resources inc e mail mlt blues infores com fifth avenue voice ext waltham ma usa fax
comp.windows.x	key event window hi there do someone of you have a program for sending a key event to another window but it must appear in that window i have used xsendevent tar package but it does not do that for example if i get a program executing bin sh read something echo something and if i send the key event keypress a keyrelease a to that window then i will get something a thanks in advance gabriel iban ez c gibanez dcc uchile cl
comp.windows.x	re did microsoft buy xhibition in article may vpbuild vp com jessea u me vp com jesse w asher writes i ve been getting mail from xhibition about the june conference and i was wondering if microsoft had bought xhibition the front says conference from microsoft windows nt developers what s the deal i thought x hibition was for x windows jesse w asher yes xhibition is for the x window system the x window system conference remains the largest and most complete conference devoted to x nineteen full and half day tutorials and thirty six technical sessions over three days provide huge amounts of information for x application developers add vendor exhibits and a product presentation track to provide information on what folks can purchase today and you have a complete show focused on x speakers at xhibition include bob schiefler lu abel mark ackerman paul asente doug blewett donna converse jim fulton oliver jones keith packard ralph swick doug young and many others xhibition is growing fortunately for us and we have added some additional conferences surveys that we have given have indicated additional topics of interest these include object oriented technologies such as the object management group s orb and corba c as it applies to x client server technologies such as dce threads databases object oriented and relational and not surprisingly when you look at the audience windows nt with the bulk of the xhibition audience and the unix community developing applications for in house or custom use a new bit operating system from a player as large as microsoft needs to be evaluated with ms windows on so many desktops and the price of computing power dropping its successor needs to be evaluated as corporations begin to look at nt so must their developers and suppliers the mission of the xhibition technical conferences is to provide information to the application developer and to the technology planner the nt conference at xhibition is designed to do just that we worked with microsoft to provide the only conference this year specifically designed to show x and unix developers the capabilities of windows and nt if you aren t sure that nt has what you need for your application development or systems deployment this is the place to find out ask the folks from microsoft get them to show you what you need conference attendees will receive nt software development kits to bang on evaluate and generally to see for yourself i hope this doesn t sound like an nt commercial it should sound like an xhibition commercial i just want to reiterate that the xhibition audience is growing and xhibition is growing along with it the industry is a confusing place at the moment with unix cose nt dce corba and all of the other acronyms sprouting up xhibition can help sort out the confusion aub harden technical program manager harden ics com x h i b i t i o n the conference and trade show for corporate software development broadway cambridge ma windows on distributed computing june san jose ca xhibit ics com uunet ics com xhibit voice fax presented by integrated computer solutions inc
comp.windows.x	re blinking cursor in xterm back in the days of x i did analyse the xterm code the cursor was implemented by drawing a rectangle around the character i doesn t seem to be changed til now but if you have the sources you could add a blinking cursor via xtappaddtimeout or similar the server overhead for this is mildly ridiculous though see also desqview x which does this in its dos windows do you really want xterm to wake up every half second and whack the server into doing a bitblt most dos x servers are terribly slow to use in my experience and no i guess performance would be pretty bad i believe the discussion is valid for an x server on a decent workstation the eno the trouble with new age janet da uk ac city music is that there s no eno uk ac city cs evil in it brian eno us da city ac uk cunyvm cuny edu
comp.windows.x	xdm x emul error when attempting to connect to an sgi indigo from a pc clone using a commercial x windows emulation package the x package hangs in a pre login x screen mode the login box won t display using the package in telnet mode i can logon to the sgi and run any none graphic type things on the pc i get an error read error on socket raw socket error on the sgi in xdm errors i get a termination error when i kill the stalled screen on the pc on the sgi in syslog date time sgi xdm hung in xopendisplay remote aborting server open failed for remote giving up i have all access control disabled i believe syslog message confirms this when i login on the sgi i believe i have the sgi set up properly as described in the x adm book by o rielly the x emul package tech support hasn t been able to solve the problem so what i m looking for is some suggestions on where to look for problems and possible tests to run to narrow down the questions thanks webster ucssun sdsu edu
comp.windows.x	re did microsoft buy xhibition harden skate ics com aub harden writes in article may vpbuild vp com jessea u me vp com jesse w asher writes i ve been getting mail from xhibition about the june conference and i was wondering if microsoft had bought xhibition the front says conference from microsoft windows nt developers what s the deal i thought x hibition was for x windows jesse w asher i was wondering this myself and not surprisingly when you look at the audience windows nt with the bulk of the xhibition audience and the unix community developing applications for in house or custom use a new bit operating system from a player as large as microsoft needs to be evaluated with ms windows on so many desktops and the price of computing power dropping its successor needs to be evaluated as corporations begin to look at nt so must their developers and suppliers what you need conference attendees will receive nt software development kits to bang on evaluate and generally to see for yourself i hope this doesn t sound like an nt commercial it should sound like an xhibition commercial unfortunately it does i don t agree with the logic of nt at an x windows conference perhaps some good will come of it but the two are so dissimilar and the nt marketing stuff is so large in the xhibition adds that i was coming to a similar conclusion as jesse mark a davis lake taylor hospital norfolk va x sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp
comp.windows.x	what is a client s display variable set to is there an easy ie via shell commands way to tell what the display environment variable is for any given client process sometimes i can get what i want by typing ps axe if a the client was invoked with a display argument or b display is one of the first few variables defined in the environment actually i ve never seen b but it s there to illustrate the type of thing i m looking for ultimately i wish to determine the number of displays that are simultaneously running a given x application my system sunos sun c thanks for any help ed posnak harris space systems corporation eposnak core hssc ksc nasa gov
comp.windows.x	multi bytes fonts i am wondering how to change the english fonts in an existed api to some multi bytes fonts such as chinese japanese someone told me x r supports some internationalization features but i cannot find any examples for my need is there anybody has done some similar jobs by the way all the english fonts should be replace by chinese or japanese fonts that means in windows menubar button that will be great if someone can share us what you have done thanks in advance m c hung
comp.windows.x	help w x r p w sun cg framebuffer xsun won t come up in color w this framebuffer i am trying to use xkernel on some of these s i have a freshly built statically linkes copy of xsun that works just fine on cg cg bw type of framebuffers but on the that have this type of frame buffer all i get is mono cgtwo at vme d x vec xa cgtwo sun color board fast read here is what i ve tried removing all the other dev cg dev bw and dev fb and then selectivly recreating dev cgtwo xsun comes up mono recreating dev fb comes up mono i ve tried xsun xsun dev dev cgtwo ps xnews will come up in color but it s not statically linked and the dynamically linked xsun comes up in mono also pps xsun was compiled on w gcc on a system running and the is also running thanks n advance the highway is made out of lime jello and my honda is a barbequeued oyster yum henry d reynolds hdr ross com or hdr nidhog cactus org fone x ross technology inc fax hwy west suite austin tx
comp.windows.x	querying xdm to manage a remote display how under linux xfree we have suns running sunos and openwindows x r we have used xvision on a pc setup to broadcast query to the unix xdm servers and allow a user to choose a unix client in which to login xdm will then manage that display i would like to do the same thing with xfree running under linux but i don t know how i don t want to hardwire the unix xdm to manage the pc displays as the pc s are not always running linux let alone xfree i would like the same setup as provided by xvision can anybody help thanks dr roberto togneri phone centre for intelligent information processing systems dept of electrical electronic engineering the university of western australia fax v nedlands wa australia email robert swanee ee uwa edu au
comp.windows.x	re viewing postscript files under x windows in article sk rinnptb polaris isi com kin isi com kin cho writes i can also live with a utility that converts postscript to plain text perferably retaining page counts so that i know how many pages the original document contains well i know of one hack to sort of do this conversion first get ghostscript and check out the gs asc ps file that comes with it it prints out some information about where each text string goes on the page and maintains page counts i ve written a little c program to massage the output of gs dnodisplay gs asc ps somewhat so that you can get all the ascii strings in the document no guarantees that it won t break up words sentences though i ve used it with varying degrees of success anyways try this out it may do what you want massager a filter for use with gs does crude postscript ascii conversion usage cat file ps gs dnodisplay gs asc ps massager i print a ctrl l after each new page put the following source into massager c and compile it include stdio h include string h main char line p while fgets line sizeof line stdin null if line p printf f n else if line s line if p strrchr line null continue p if p strchr line null continue for p p p if p p p putchar p putchar n return david wagner dawagner princeton edu
comp.windows.x	wanted an interactive gui builder for x motif hi there i m looking for tools that can make x programming easy i would like to have a tool that will enable to create x motif gui interactivly currently i m working on a sgi with forms a package that enables to create gui with no coding at all but the callbacks any help will be appreciated thanks gabi
comp.windows.x	how to program about wm protocols wm delete window in olit hi all i study about wm delete window atom in open look i study the book unix desktop guide to open look i run the example of chapter but it is not the result described as book s figure dose anyone read the book or run the example winprop c what is the problem i am curious about wm delete window programming anyone help me thanks in advance for any help iop
comp.windows.x	please this discussion on viewing ps files undex x seems rather interesting but i fail to understand the reason it is not contained in at most newsgroups i am subscribed to comp text interleaf and i could care less about ps viewing under x i am sure that members of this group interested in the topic can followup by looking at other newsgroups could you please remove the comp text interleaf from your distribution just as a nettish sort of courtesy best regards leo j irakliotis irakliot longs lance colostate edu electrical engineering l irakliotis ieee org colorado state u optical computing lab
comp.windows.x	x r on ibm rs how are you everybody i installed x r on our ibm rs workstation os version is aix there was no problem in installation but there was a problem in invoking xinit when i invoke xinit there is a error message as follows giving up xinit unable to connect to x server xinit no such process errno server error i m a navice so i don t know the reason why i get this message please help me i am waiting for your help thanks for reading this mail park jang ho jhpark kdb snu ac kr
comp.windows.x	xfig with open look problem i m a solaris user with a classic workstation i have compiled xfig version with dopenwin flag to use it with openwindows but when i run it the program runs and runs and runs minutes and never is ready to work with it the labels are not completed and i can t push any button i have no problem if i does not run the openwindows but x any solution thanks in advance and excuse for my english pedro antonio acebes bayon e mail pacebes cozuelos tid es x adress c es admd mensatex prmd iris o rediris ou relay dd rfc pacebes a cozuelos tid es
comp.windows.x	multi byte fonts i am wondering how to change the english fonts in an existed api to some multi bytes fonts such as chinese japanese someone told me x r supports some internationalization features but i cannot find any examples for my need is there anybody has done some similar jobs by the way all the english fonts should be replace by chinese or japanese fonts that means in windows menubar button that will be great if someone can share us what you have done thanks in advance m c hung
comp.windows.x	x r on ibm rs yes we have the same problem with xinit the problems seems to come from the fact that the xopendisplay fails if we try on our machine named godzilla setenv display godzilla xibm xterm it works fine but the following will not work setenv display unix xibm xterm did we set a configuration option incorrectly thank you for any assistance you can offer herb hasler herb iiasa ac at international institute for applied systems anaylsis iiasa a laxemburg austria ext
comp.windows.x	x windows on ms dos pc where s the faq i need to know where i can get a faq on xwindows for ms dos machines the usual faq just gave me a name of a file called xservers nonunix txt z which i cannot find anywhere i need to do x windows programming on a msdos pc does anyone know how to go about doing it
comp.windows.x	re blinking cursor in xterm in may wariat org allbery wariat org allbery writes as quoted from may moepi do open de by bernward moepi do open de bernward averwald back in the days of x i did analyse the xterm code the cursor was implemented by drawing a rectangle around the character i doesn t seem to be changed til now but if you have the sources you could add a blinking cursor via xtappaddtimeout or similar the server overhead for this is mildly ridiculous though see also desqview x which does this in its dos windows do you really want xterm to wake up every half second and whack the server into doing a bitblt so what i m running emu on a mhz box i cannot make out any difference in performance whether the cursor is set to blinking or not if you think about it a bit a cycle of ms is a hell a lot of time for even the slowest pc since you would of course only enable the blinking text cursor when your xterm has the input focus this application is active anyway to repeat it a blinking text cursor costs almost nothing in performance it just needs some thought when designing the xterm software michael michael elbel digital pcs gmbh muenchen germany me dude pcs com intelligenz is sowieso nur wat fuer doofe mia fermentation fault coors dumped
comp.windows.x	looking for article i am urgently looking for the following article can i cannot find it anywhere in our local libraries john allen smith the multi threaded x server the x resource issue pp winter if anyone can tell me where i can find it i will much appreciate it h f sadie departement of computer science university of stellenbosch south africa e mail sadie itu sun ac za
comp.windows.x	open look where where can i obtain a copy of the open look widgets is it obtainable on the net somewhere or do i need to order a copy if so how thanks for any help please email dave wilson computing centre rhodes university grahamstown south africa
comp.windows.x	re mac x and sun openwindows in article t o mrd ux cso uiuc edu kerr ux cso uiuc edu stan kerr writes benj ossa hq nasa gov benjamin jones writes i ve run into a bit of a snag while trying to get mac x up and running and would appreciate stuff deleted are not on my local net here but the above problem holds true for non local suns as well i tried to send this as private mail but mail to benj ossa hq nasa gov was rejected so here it is same here here is an extract from the readme file that comes with macx users of remote commands with sun machines may find that their remote commands appear to do nothing and there is no output from the sun machine this is due to a feature of the sun rexecd network daemon which quietly disconnects from requesting machines that are not known to the sun s network address etc hosts or nis hosts database to successfully use remote commands with a sunos based machine there must be an entry in the network address database for the macintosh which is running macx i received similar information advice about what appears to be the same problem benjamin has and i still have nis has all the information about the macs i even put explicit entries in etc hosts to no avail monitoring with snoop on my classic the initial rexec packet is sent to the the sun which sends something to the correct mac but nothing appears at the mac rexecd is number one suspect but it s more suble than the readme suggests and i haven t yet looked into it further stan kerr computing communications services office u of illinois urbana phone email stankerr uiuc edu callum downie brunel ac uk faculty of technology brunel university uxbridge ub ph uk x die meisten saetze und fragen welche ueber philosophische dinge geschrieben worden sind sind nicht falsch sondern unsinnig wovon man nicht sprechen kann darueber muss man schweigen
comp.windows.x	re viewing postscript files under x windows in article gordons mon sps mot com gordons mon sps mot com gordon sasamori writes in ftms uucp brown ftms uucp vidiot writes ow is the same but the definition of broken is relative pageview requires dsc compliant postscript files in order to stop at page breaks i don t consider that broken i say that any program that puts out a postscript file that isn t dsc compliant is broken well that may be true however the man page for pageview for ow does not mention about dsc compliance in any event the point here is that if you try to display some ps files using pageview you will find out that it s not a practical tool it is true that the man page for pageview does not say that the files need to be dsc compliant that is the fault of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing at sun i was informed by a sun employee that the pageview program does require dsc compliant postscript there was the possibility that it was going to be changed so that if the file wasn t dsc compliant that it would stop at each showpage i believe that this method would preclude being able to go backwards and forwards through the file i e you could only go forward to the next showpage this isn t in ow pageview but maybe it is in the solaris x version of ow ow in any event i find pageview extremely useful since all of the postscript that i produce is dsc compliant i don t have any problems harvard ucbvax uwvax astroatc ftms brown or uu psi com ftms brown rutgers internet brown wi extrel com or ftms brown astroatc uucp cs wisc edu
comp.windows.x	moving curosr with keyboard hi xperts how can i move the cursor with the keyboard i e cursor keys if no mouse is available any hints welcome thanks rainer hochreiter telephone elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax penzingerstr a wien austria europe e mail rainer elin co at
comp.windows.x	re fitting straight line or curve to data points in article warda land vf ge com andrew ward writes i am looking for a graphing program that will fit my data to a straight line any program that estimates a closest fit curve or gives any statistics would be helpful many spreadsheets do regression analysis the topic is also well covered in most undergraduate statistic books cubic splines are usually well covered in any undergraduate computer science numerical analysis text i am sure ge mm has a well stocked library i have never used mathematica but i would be surprised if it could not do a spline edmond l meinfelder programmer virtual guy my aardvark is bigger anon hack for hire
comp.windows.x	re blinking cursor in xterm me dude pcs com michael elbel writes in may wariat org allbery wariat org allbery writes as quoted from may moepi do open de by bernward moepi do open de bernward averwald back in the days of x i did analyse the xterm code the cursor was implemented by drawing a rectangle around the character i doesn t seem to be changed til now but if you have the sources you could add a blinking cursor via xtappaddtimeout or similar the server overhead for this is mildly ridiculous though see also desqview x which does this in its dos windows do you really want xterm to wake up every half second and whack the server into doing a bitblt so what i m running emu on a mhz box i cannot make out any difference in performance whether the cursor is set to blinking or not if you think about it a bit a cycle of ms is a hell a lot of time for even the slowest pc since you would of course only enable the blinking text cursor when your xterm has the input focus this application is active anyway to repeat it a blinking text cursor costs almost nothing in performance it just needs some thought when designing the xterm software you are stuck in a distributed system feedback loop what if you are on an xterminal or running xterm over the net to another machine that is when the load problems occur if you had a machine with xterminals attached and they all had blinking cursors in xterm s this could represent a considerable ethernet bandwidth waste i m not picking on you just people keep forgetting that there is a lot of life out there besides distributed or singleuser workstations mark a davis lake taylor hospital norfolk va x sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp
comp.windows.x	re did microsoft buy xhibition jessea u me vp com jesse w asher wrote i ve been getting mail from xhibition about the june conference and i was wondering if microsoft had bought xhibition the front says conference from microsoft windows nt developers what s the deal i thought x hibition was for x windows i had exactly the same feeling i was depressed if you ever programmed windows and x you d be depressed if an x conference touted its tutorials to show you how to convert from x to windows api sort of like how to convert your c classes to the new improved c what happened dan greening software transformation saratoga sunnyvale rd greening sti com x cupertino ca
comp.windows.x	cga for windows hi i m looking for some assistance in locating information on how to run win on a cga monitor the setup suggests you look at the manual but the guy i m helping is part of a large office and computer assistance must be booked in advance therefore he cant get windows onto his cga system thanx in anticipation neil
comp.windows.x	graphics text with x are there any graphics texts with examples demos projects directly in x the last time i taught the course i used a popular graphics text that uses its own graphics package with implementations available for x mac pc the problem was that after the course the students were good at programming in the artificial package but frustrated that they couldn t really use their skill for other work ken mandelberg km mathcs emory edu preferred emory university rutgers gatech emory km uucp dept of math and cs km emory bitnet non domain bitnet atlanta ga phone voice fax
comp.windows.x	x professional organization has anyone ever heard of the x professional organization is anyone a member is the membership worth the or so that they charge tim bomgardner
comp.windows.x	q whats vendorshellwidgetclass we tried to compile an old x r motif program with x and a newer version of motif but we newer succeed any ideas cc o xtrack new main o libxtrack a xutils libxutils a pmshort libpmshort a matrix libmatrix a otte lib otte a verb lib verb a tools newmotif lib libmrm a tools newmotif lib libxm a l tools x r lib lxaw lxmu lxt lx ll lm lxext cxm a lxaw lxmu lxt lx ll lm lxext l usr cc sun lc ld tools x r lib libxaw sa sharedlib o vendorshellwidgetclass multiply defined error code make fatal error command failed for target xtrack thanks fvd fvd markus weber fvd ma ws mathematik uni karlsruhe de sometimes there s nothing to feel
comp.windows.x	starting x windows as soon as i am logged into linux i type xinit setting tcp so linger protocol not available no siocgifconf xfree version x window system protocol version revision vendor release configured drivers vga colout svga et et pvga gvga ati tvga c tgva using vt number mouse type mouse systems device dev mouse baudrate font path set to usr lib x fonts type usr lib x fonts dpi usr lib x fonts speedo usr lib x fonts bitstream usr lib x fonts misc vga et mem ok numclocks vga clocks vga clocks vga too little memory for virtual resolution a configured device found but display modes could not be resolved fatal server error no screens found giving up xinit interrupted system call errno unable to connect to x server xinit no such process errno server error why am i getting these messages when i type in xinit is there a configuration file for x windows like config sys for msdos how do i start the x session from shell subbarao chitturi schit ctp com
comp.windows.x	re makedepend problem in article cronos metaphor com mlt blues infores com michael turok writes we have a problem with makedepend it doesn t know how to correctly process if clause in c preprocessor statements it evaluates everything to true no matter what the conditionals are has anybody come up with some solution fix to makdepend other than writeyourownparser and willing to share it with us rewrite makedepend to use cc m or gcc m or gcc mm which is the one i prefer since system headers don t change that often for generating the actual dependencies you ll still need to write the parts that edit the actual makefile i think there s a program in the berkeley distributions called mkdep that will do essentially this vivek khera gradual student systems guy department of computer science internet khera cs duke edu box mime mail accepted durham nc
comp.windows.x	re makedepend problem we have a problem with makedepend it doesn t know how to correctly process i m most of the way through adding a grammar for parsing the if expressions i don t know when i ll be able to get back to it you re welcome to what i have so far i haven t looked at other versions of makedepend which may solve the problem more elegantly david b lewis temporarily at but not speaking for visual inc day dbl visual com evening david craft uunet uu net
comp.windows.x	re did microsoft buy xhibition well i m glad that there s plenty of nt stuff at xhibition not because i want to use it instead of x but because i want to find out what the chances are that some time in the future i may not have any choice this is news this is your peter scott nasa jpl caltech brain on news any questions pjs euclid jpl nasa gov
comp.windows.x	re cga for windows sat eng tridom com stephen thomas writes in article af uniwa uwa edu au ngolding tartarus uwa edu au neil golding writes i m looking for some assistance in locating information on how to run win on a cga monitor the cga driver for windows works fine with win oh no oh no they ve taken over comp windows misc and now they re coming for us berry berry kercheval kerch parc xerox com
comp.windows.x	re xquerytree xgrabserver and robustness in article may viewlogic com josh viewlogic com josh marantz writes i have an application that wants to walk the server window hierarchy looking for a window with a specific property i think what happens is that xquerytree gives me an array of n children but by the time i get to the nth child window it has been destroyed then i get a badwindow error and my application exits how can i make this robust i ve thought of the following set up an x error handler that longjmps back to where i made the offending call is this safe do i have to longjmp or can i just return badwindow is an x protocol error if you write a custom error handler which does not do exit the error handler will return and let your program carry on so using a xseterrorhandler is the way to go but never mind the longjmp register for destroynotify on all the windows returned from xquerytree too hard
comp.windows.x	problems with characters above hi all i ve read the faq i ve fiddled around but i am still having problems getting my poor old hp to let me input display characters above i have the following in my xdefaults xterm font adobe courier bold r normal m iso so i believe that i have the correct font selected to use in xterm i have not set my lc ctype environment variable because whatever i put it it tells me that that locale is not supported apparently we have no additional locales defined or at least lib locale doesn t exist i can get some of the characters above to print out but they are not where i d expect them for example alt v does not produce a u umlaut this leads me to believe that the fault lies with the stty settings which are as follows speed baud line susp undef dsusp undef intr c quit erase h kill k swtch eof d eol min time stop s start q parenb parodd cs cstopb hupcl cread clocal loblk crts ignbrk brkint ignpar parmrk inpck istrip inlcr igncr icrnl iuclc ixon ixany ixoff ienqak isig icanon iexten xcase echo echoe echok echonl noflsh opost olcuc onlcr ocrnl onocr onlret ofill ofdel tostop anyway i ve struggled with this off and on for a couple of weeks and any help anyone could offer would be greatly appreciated thanks brendan
comp.windows.x	windows motif tools summary i posted this may th i am looking for info on products that can take windows source on a unix box such as sparc and produce a motif executable another requirement is that mfc should be supported i already know of wind u by bristol technologies hunter sdk mainwin by mainsoft are there any others i will post a summary if it s wanted i got a few requests asking for a summary so i ll attempt one here here s the ones i know of wind u bristol technologies hunter sdk hunter systems mainwin mainsoft libwxm visual solutions hunter the company is going through some big changes i expect to eventually see the hunter sdk pop up with a new name at the moment it is difficult to get phone calls returned and otherwise obtain info hopefully they will post something about themselves once things settle down visual solutions libwxm is a product that i just heard about they don t yet support mdi or mfc libwxm was used to port vissim a mathematical modeling package does native motif widgets like wind u from bristol contact carrie lemieux at for more info she s very helpful mainsoft this translates windows source to a unix executable that can switch off between a windows or quasi motif look and feel at runtime they skip the xt and xm motif x toolkit levels and go straight to xlib they don t yet support mfc they re at bristol this company that seems to be on the right track wind u uses xlib xt xm to give a real motif app they seem to be doing the most work in trying to support things like dde common dialogs and more on the horizon my contact there is knowledgeable responds to my email and wrote an example program for me showing how to obtain x widgets from windows handles they re at or you can email info bristol com dls autodesk com dls netcom com daniel l smith autodesk sausalito california x disclaimer accuracy of statements corrrelates somehow to caffeine intake
comp.windows.x	colorizing motif widgets using resource file i posted this question about colorizing motif widgets i got it working fine there was one bug in my xdefault file it should work fine in normal case thanks samir spatel cs tamu edu
comp.windows.x	wanted an interactive gui builder for x motif hi there i m looking for tools that can make x programming easy i would like to have a tool that will enable to create x motif gui interactivly currently i m working on a sgi with forms a package that enables to create gui with no coding at all but the callbacks any help will be appreciated thanks gabi gabi zodik ee room ph o o technion haifa israel interest mapping problem c e mail gabi techunix technion ac il
comp.windows.x	re hpgl to anything converter wanted in comp windows x doug happy vf ge com doug hughes writes i ve found an hpgl viewer for x and a converter from hpgl to postscript does anybody have anything that allows you to convert from anything into hpgl i m desperately in need of something like this hpgl does not support raster primitives so a formatter would have to punt on most popular image formats this probably explains the lack of translators out there what do you need to plot greg hughes gmh fc hp com
comp.windows.x	re compiling ghostview under sun openwindows in article c z a r curia ucc ie pflynn curia ucc ie peter flynn writes due it seems to sun s crapulous organisation of the x libraries and includes most standard gnu and other software won t compile out of the box well tar file right now i m trying to make ghostview it complains it can t find x xaw so i just linked ln s the files from usr openwin share include x and now the ghoddam thing still complains it can t find them i still haven t been able to compile xdvi not no way has anyone ever managed to get anything normal to compile on a sun sunos and openwindows what s the trick i m missing i ve even tried hard copying all the relevant files into the right places and every time there s some bit missing or it refuses to find it sounds like you didn t load the support for those libraries when ow was loaded the xaw support was missing from ow but added in harvard ucbvax uwvax astroatc ftms brown or uu psi com ftms brown rutgers internet brown wi extrel com or ftms brown astroatc uucp cs wisc edu
comp.windows.x	re program to display gif files in article minya uucp jc minya uucp john chambers writes it seems silly but while i ve located things like tgif that can edit gif files and various tools to convert to from gif format i haven t been able to locate a program that just opens a window and displays a gif file in it i ve looked thru various faq files also to no avail is there one lurking about in some archive nothing sophisticated just show the pretty picture alternatively if i could locate the specs for gif i don t suppose it would be too hard to write it myself but i have no idea where to even start looking for the spec well actually i do have an idea this newsgroup get xv version it reads displays manipulates many different formats harvard ucbvax uwvax astroatc ftms brown or uu psi com ftms brown rutgers internet brown wi extrel com or ftms brown astroatc uucp cs wisc edu
comp.windows.x	re problem with r release in article mcgary may mojo intellection com mcgary intellection com mike mcgary writes in article sr klinnauq news u washington edu pramod stein u washington edu pramod mahadev writes ld unidentified external symbol get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass i use lxaw lxmu lxext lx lxt not in this order but in a proper order i am wondering if there has to be some changes in my link libraries or should i include some more libraries any help in this matter will be very useful and highly appreciated we get this too if you put bstatic into your options it goes away things seem to run ok without it must not be called very often from the faq subject what is this link problem with libxmu on sunos in sunos sun fixed a shared library bug in ld which conflicts with the way x builds the shared xmu library causing these symbols notably to be undefined when building some x clients get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass compiling bstatic lxmu bdynamic appears to work to solve the problem if you are using openwindows x r based xt please contact your local sun office and request the following patches patch i d description x openwindows libxt jumbo patch x openwindows undefined symbols when using shared libxmu greg earle earle sun com a source patch for use with the mit x r libraries was developed by conrad kimball cek sdc boeing com it retrofits into r some fixes made in r to get around this problem the patch is on export in contrib x r sunos patch version z conrad kimball client server tech services boeing computer services cek sdc cs boeing com p o box ms a seattle wa
comp.windows.x	re ideas on xterm paste irritation in article eillihca grizzle stanford edu eillihca drizzle stanford edu achille hui the day dreamer writes read the xterm s manual pages for more informations about the avaliable actions of xterm read the faq and get a good book on customizing your x applications okay i will byte could someone provide more info on a good book on customizing your x applicaitons i am in search of one which does not expect the reader to have the x source code memorized or even available online s s larry w virden inet lvirden cas org s personal falls place reynoldsburg oh
comp.windows.x	resources and cpp help hi i am running x r on an ibm rs aix and x r on a sun sunos since i run x on both colour and black white displays i need different values for the same resource so i want to use ifdef color in my application defaults files however cpp is only invoked by xrdb and not when the resources are loaded on demand is there a proper solution to this so far the only proper solution i ve come to think of is to create different files in my app defaults say xterm and xterm color and set my xfilesearchpath to either home t n or home t n color but that does not always seem to work e g executing a remote shell command without reading the cshrc does not set xfilesearchpath furthermore i thought of using include xterm in xterm color however for resources in xterm that i want to override in xterm color things are different on both machines on a sun the first found resource is used i e the one from xterm the b w one while on an rs the last found value is used i e the one from xterm color what can i do about it i have one last question for the specification of xfilesearchpath i can use t n c and s t stands for app defaults n for the resource class but what do c and s stand for thanks in advance for replying marcel x drs marcel wijkstra aio visualization wijkstra fwi uva nl x faculty of mathematics and computer science ph x university of amsterdam the netherlands fx life stinks fortunately i ve got a cold
comp.windows.x	axe hp ux problem i ve been happy with axe under linux now i wanted to use it under hp ux too however my attempts have ended in core dumps this far bus error has anybody else been more successful jim wight s install file does say there have been problems with hp s data axe hp ux x r or x r doesn t seem to matter shared libs hp thanks in advance sakari aaltonen linux is an ftp able unix clone for pc s sakaria vipunen hut fi boggles my mind it does
comp.windows.x	looking for a file manager under twm hi out there every command line shell favourating user close your ears ehm eyes i m looking for a x file manager which can be driven under twm somebody told me last night there is one under openwindows and there certainly is one under ms windows but i d like an x one you know with icon s click and drag directory structures shown in a graphic layout a paper basket etc anybody got an idea please reply thso thorsten sommer better known as chiquita denn nur chiquita ist banane e mail sommer ips cs tu bs de transform and roll out bigtruck transformers
comp.windows.x	how xcreateregion works hi could someone explain to me what exactly the xlib functions xcreateregion xpolygonregion xpointinregion do or to suggest a ftp site where i can find programs using these functions ps the man pages does not explain much thank you leo leonidas nikidis ln doc ic ac uk imperial college london uk dept of computing
comp.windows.x	re did microsoft buy xhibition mark mark a davis mark taylor uucp writes in article may taylor uucp mark taylor uucp mark a davis writes mark we are the ones in control of what we use it is those who mark follow like blind sheep which cause the markets to skew i m sure mark there will be enough paid market hipe nt conferences without it mark needing to be in what was once a conference for open windowing mark enviroments i know that if i were planning to go i would cancel mark not because i have my eyes closed but because nt does not belong mark at such a conference i would however like to go to a closed mark environment nt conference to see the product because i am curious mark i doubt however based on the objective opinions of those i trust mark that i would be impressed why do many people believe that xhibition is one of the paid market hype nt conferences as you put it i for one am going because i too am curious about the technology i think this is a great chance to learn about nt mainly because it will be presented in x s home turf i believe that the attendees will mostly have x backgrounds biases thus i expect that the nt presentations will face a tough audience i can be there in person to judge for myself whether or not nt is what it is hyped to be this is as closely as i can get to in evaluating the nt technology without actually using it myself which i don t have the time to do if nt turns out to be a vapor technology and i get bored there will be many other interesting tutorials presentations that i won t have to waste my time in california just my thoughts ik su yoo rrc f x ik leis bellcore com
comp.windows.x	re mysterious xdm files x disclaimer all views are my own unless expicitly stated otherwise in may csi jpl nasa gov mwette csi jpl nasa gov matt wette writes i m getting lots of files in usr lib x xdm of the form abert a i m running xdm anybody know what these are and better yet how to move them i e what resource can i change to make them appear somewhere else that are the authorisation files for the server depending on what type of key your x supports they contain magic cookies des based authentication or sun des authentication the place is defined with the displaymanager authdir other things like the file name can be changed as well see xdm manual pages peter brouwer digital equipment enterprise net pb idca tds philips nl integration industry standard systems phone ext dept systems enginering bld v b fax ext p o box ae apeldoorn the netherlands
comp.windows.x	integration of hp a keyboard into sco odt sco odt allows to adapt the x server to any non standard at keyboard using the xkeyboard configuration compiler xsconfig sco provides some configuration files in usr lib x xsconfig kbd e g for siemens wx question is there anywhere a configuration file for the hp a keyboard available i am especially interested in using the hp specific keys such as insertline menu thanks ron
comp.windows.x	re how xcreateregion works in article td ininnl m finch doc ic ac uk ln doc ic ac uk leonidas nikidis writes hi could someone explain to me what exactly the xlib functions xcreateregion xpolygonregion xpointinregion do or to suggest a ftp site where i can find programs using these functions ps the man pages does not explain much thank you leo leonidas nikidis ln doc ic ac uk imperial college london uk dept of computing i use those routines in a widget which only redraws exposed areas here s a small piece of code that uses those routines static void redisplay pw ev region xtpmanagerwidget pw xexposeevent ev region region pp exposure region is an xregion xtpmanagerpart pp pw plotter pp exposure region xcreateregion region is passed via an expose event if region null if ev send event synthetic event sent by widget it wants a full redraw exporect x pw core x exporect y pw core y exporect width pw core width exporect height pw core height else exporect x ev x exporect y ev y exporect width ev width exporect height ev height stuff deleted region now contains the exposure region xunionrectwithregion exporect pp exposure region pp exposure region else xunionregion region pp exposure region pp exposure region stuff deleted we need to clip on expose region for redrawing the grid xsetregion xtdisplayofobject pw pp plotarea gc pp exposure region stuff deleted check to see if child is exposed if xrectinregion pw plotter exposure region child core x child core y child core width child core height so i build up a region of exposures so that when i service my container widget redraw of rectobj children i only redraw what need to be redrawn it works for me hope this helps you brian brian dealy it not knowing where it s at dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that s important it s knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where it s not at b dylan
comp.windows.x	re looking for a file manager under twm in article may ips cs tu bs de sommer ips cs tu bs de thorsten sommer writes hi out there every command line shell favourating user close your ears ehm eyes i m looking for a x file manager which can be driven under twm somebody told me last night there is one under openwindows and there certainly is one under ms windows but i d like an x one you know with icon s click and drag directory structures shown in a graphic layout a paper basket etc anybody got an idea i ve recently joined the motif world so i d like a similar tool for motif i ve bene used to the openwin one in the past and miss it cheers m a r c marc cr bouron desisco ltd harefield place the drive marc bouron ime mts dec com uxbridge middlesex ub aq
comp.windows.x	where can i find a list of toolkit options i ve just started messing with x windows under linux and i ve run into this toolkit options thing in the man pages of a number of x clients where can i get a list of these options is this only an xview thing if so would some kind soul show me how to set it up under linux rick miller rick ee uwm edu ricxjo discus mil wi us ricxjo muelisto send a postcard get one back enposxtigu bildkarton kaj vi ricevos alion rick miller woods muskego wis usa
comp.windows.x	re blinking cursor in xterm barmar think com barry margolin writes in article may taylor uucp mark taylor uucp mark a davis writes you are stuck in a distributed system feedback loop what if you are on an xterminal or running xterm over the net to another machine that is when the load problems occur if you had a machine with xterminals attached and they all had blinking cursors in xterm s this could represent a considerable ethernet bandwidth waste ethernet certainly has enough bandwidth for a few blinking cursors my lisp machine blinks the cursor twice a second and updates the time in the status line every second this uses under k bytes second or about of the bandwidth of ethernet a hundred of them on a single ethernet might be a problem but a couple dozen should be fine granted it s nothing to loose sleep over but this is ethernet s tragic flaw the more activity especially lots of tiny activity the more collisions happen and the performance gets exponentially worse i am just now opposing any kind of waste of bandwidth under ethernet although in a polling system it would not be so bad mark a davis lake taylor hospital norfolk va x sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp
comp.windows.x	eventhandlers on xmpushbuttons help i ve got an applications with a series of pushbuttons across the top a toolbar i wanted to add eventhandlers to these pushbuttons on enterwindowmask and leavewindowmask so that i can put up some descriptive text about the function of each pushbutton as the pointer crosses over it i ve done this fine but i ve turned up the following problem when the pushbuttons are sensitive i get callbacks on both of the above events but when they are not sensitive i only get callbacks on leavewindow events this seems odd i would expect this to be an all or nothing type of thing is this a bug if not can someone explain this behavior thanks mark
comp.windows.x	re gui builders for vms in article trident datasys swri edu mark trident datasys swri edu mark d collier writes i am looking for gui builders uims s which run in a vms openvms environment i am interested in both motif tools and gui independent tools such as xvt my client also requires that the tool has been in production for at least months in the vms environment note that i have the list of tools from the faq but not the info on vms availability thanks take a look at teleuse a complete uims from alsys formerly telesoft in the us you can reach them at alsys have an vms version of teleuse v for vms v or higher built using decwindows motif based on x r and motif v btw the vms port from the unix version was made at my company and was released in november thomas michanek dial infologics linkoping phone email thomas michanek direct lin infolog se l i n k o p i n g s w e d e n fax
comp.windows.x	re blinking cursor in xterm in article tbpi innfp early bird think com barmar think com barry margolin writes in article may taylor uucp mark taylor uucp mark a davis writes you are stuck in a distributed system feedback loop what if you are on an xterminal or running xterm over the net to another machine that is when the load problems occur if you had a machine with xterminals attached and they all had blinking cursors in xterm s this could represent a considerable ethernet bandwidth waste ethernet certainly has enough bandwidth for a few blinking cursors my lisp machine blinks the cursor twice a second and updates the time in the status line every second this uses under k bytes second or about of the bandwidth of ethernet a hundred of them on a single ethernet might be a problem but a couple dozen should be fine bandwidth is unlikely to be the problem except over a wet string network one of major flaws of x is the horrendous number of transactions and hence process switches that it forces upon a host actual measurements hourly average are per second per logged in user which can lead to or more process switches depending on whether each event is filtered by the window manager as well as the applications and how many processes are needed for each character while a blinking cursor needs only the application and the networking process and does not add any transactions it will add something like process switches per second per user this is a significant increase in overhead especially as the application may have quite a large working set if you want a rapidly blinking cursor there could be as many as if you want to go there i wouldn t start from here nick maclaren university of cambridge computer laboratory new museums site pembroke street cambridge cb qg england email nmm cus cam ac uk tel fax
comp.windows.x	xdm backgroundpixmap hi i ve tried to get rid off xdm s ugly login window by giving it a cool backgroundpixmap ressource as login is derived from core this should be possible anyway setting xlogin backgroundpixmap a b c xpm did not produce any message of the form cannot convert string to pixmap and explicitely registering such converter lead to nothing too any way to do it o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	re athena tookkit help vck cs rit edu vidya c kayar writes i am currently programming on athena toolkit i am having problems creating a text widget any guidence or help will be greatly appreciated i assume that you are literally trying to create a widget of type textwidgetclass use the asciitext widget instead jim j k wight newcastle ac uk department of computing science university of newcastle tel newcastle upon tyne ne ru united kingdom fax
comp.windows.x	looking for converters for xpm i am looking for utilities for converting gifs jpegs ps etc to xpm format any information appreciated thanks michael linehan
comp.windows.x	how to iconize a window i have an application running in one window in this application i d like to iconize this window and later deiconize back to window how could i do it your help would be appreciated tai thou siemens com
comp.windows.x	cool demo now available on internet bristol technology announces the availability of its hyperhelp tm and xprinter tm demo for downloading this demo showcases the two products in the form of a diagram editor called de download the demo and see some of these exciting features for yourself o complete on line context sensitive help system o printing support for pcl and postscript o rotated text support o source code for the demo is provided the demo is available via anonymous ftp from ftp uu net there are two versions of the demo located in the vendor bristol directory sun sun demo tar z sunos x hp hp tar z hp ux if you have any questions about the demo send an e mail to support bristol com if you want another version of the demo rs etc please send an e mail to info bristol com remember to use binary mode what are hyperhelp and xprinter read on bristol technology is proud to announce version of its popular hyperhelp product and version of xprinter hyperhelp hyperhelp is the de facto standard for on line context sensitive help in the unix marketplace through a one line function call application developers can access the full features of hyperhelp and cut down drastically on their development time hyperhelp can use the same rtf project and bitmap files as the ms windows help facility this allows a documentation department to maintain a single set of help documents portable between ms windows motif and open look hyperhelp can also be authored in framemaker and with hyperhelp bristol introduces its sgml compiler new features in hyperhelp include secondary windows a character based viewer segmented bitmaps sgml support and an improved history window xprinter xprinter allows developers to add sophisticated printer support to their existing new x based applications very easily xprinter uses the xlib api for both the display and printer this lets you use the exact same code for drawing and printing take a look at the source code for our demo and see xprinter in action if you are interested in adding postscript and pcl support to your application xprinter is the tool for you earlier this year bristola dn usl signed an agreement that resulted in xprinter becoming the standard printing technology for unix svr feel free to run the demo and let us know what you think about hyperhelp and xprinter if you have any questions or comments send them to us at info bristol com or call us at happy demoing the staff at bristol technology
comp.windows.x	re ideas on xterm paste irritation in c u q d d deshaw com wolf cs stanford edu writes moving the mouse out of the xterm window before clicking up will not abort the paste in fact once that middle button is pressed down the paste is inevitable so the obvious questions is there some way around this and do others feel that moving the mouse out of an xterm window before release should abort the paste i would have thought this would have been a common enough problem that someone would have changed xterm by now but maybe it s just me michael it is not just you i have been aggravated many times by the mouse making hay of my maladroitness and would be ever grateful to everyone who would make keyboard alternatives for all mouse actions lsrh
comp.windows.x	setting display i am working for a company which has only one connection to the internet this is through a firewall gateway unix workstation i would like to be able to telnet to a host outside the company and set the display to my pc which is running an x terminal emulator exceed w the display can be set to the gateway workstation with no problem but when i set the variable to my ip address i get a error can t open display message this can t be that hard to work around can it btw i have no trouble running x clients on local workstations in the company and having them display on my pc curtis wahlgren
comp.windows.x	tcpview doesn t read my xkeysymdb file howcum any tcpview for sun users out there i pulled down the pre compiled executables made for sun for tcpview but i m getting a whole slew of the following types of error messages when i try to start it up warning translation table syntax error unknown keysym name osfactivate warning found while parsing key osfactivate managerparentactivate warning translation table syntax error unknown keysym name osfcancel warning found while parsing key osfcancel managerparentcancel warning translation table syntax error unknown keysym name osfselect warning found while parsing key osfselect managergadgetselect but i know i have those in my keysym egrep osfactivate osfcancel osfselect openwinhome lib xkeysymdb yields osfactivate ff osfselect ff osfcancel ff osfselectall ff and if i take out the osf lines from said xkeysymdb my copy of wscrawl another motif compiled for sun program gives the same type of complaints as listed above any tips i m mystified kevin weinrich computer sciences corp kbw helios ath epa gov
comp.windows.x	xod does it exist hello i was wondering if anyone knew of an interface to od octal dump i assume it would be called xod actually any viewer for a core file will do i looked at export mit in the index of contrib but didn t find anything relevant thanks i hate bama winter main superman msfc nasa gov
comp.windows.x	program wm protocols in open look toolkit hi all i am studying the book unix desktop guide to open look there is an example winprop c that demonstrate how to program wm protocols property in chapter it can run but only show the static text messages no notice pop up what is the problem thanks in advance for help iop file winprop c shows how to set properties on a window include x xatom h for definition of xa atom include x intrinsic h include x stringdefs h include xol openlook h include xol statictext h include xol oblongbutt h include xol notice h this file defines the atoms with ol prefix id of the top level and noticeshell widget static widget top level notice shell static widget make notice static char message clients use properties to communicate with the window manager this example illustrates how an open look application requests notification from the window manager when certain events occur the communication is in the form of a clientmessage event that the application processes in an event handler atoms used for inter client communication atom atom wm protocols atom wm delete window atom wm save yourself static void handle wm messages static void save and exit static void save yourself static void pop notice static void do exit string to hold comand line for use in responding to the wm save yourself protocol message char saved cmdline void main argc argv int argc char argv widget w int i save the command line for use in responding to the wm save yourself protocol message sprintf saved cmdline s argv if argc for i i argc i strcat saved cmdline argv i strcat saved cmdline create and initialize the top level widget top level olinitialize argv ol main null argc argv create a statictext widget w xtvacreatemanagedwidget stext statictextwidgetclass top level xtnstring message xtnwidth null create a noticeshell widget for later use make notice top level intern the atoms atom wm protocols xinternatom xtdisplay w wm protocols false atom wm delete window xinternatom xtdisplay w wm delete window false atom wm save yourself xinternatom xtdisplay w wm save yourself false add an event handler to process clientmessage events sent by the window manager xtaddeventhandler top level noeventmask true handle wm messages null realize the widgets and start processing events xtrealizewidget top level append the properties wm delete window and wm save yourself to the definition of the wm protocols property this step requires the window id of the top level widget the window id is valid only after the widget is realized xchangeproperty xtdisplay top level xtwindow top level atom wm protocols xa atom propmodeappend atom wm delete window xchangeproperty xtdisplay top level xtwindow top level atom wm protocols xa atom propmodeappend atom wm save yourself xtmainloop static void handle wm messages w client data p event widget w xtpointer client data xevent p event if p event type clientmessage p event xclient message type atom wm protocols if p event xclient data l atom wm delete window save and exit if p event xclient data l atom wm save yourself save yourself static void save and exit display a notice giving the user a chance to respond pop notice top level notice shell static void save yourself set the wm command property to the saved command line xchangeproperty xtdisplay top level xtwindow top level xa wm command xa string propmodereplace saved cmdline strlen saved cmdline static widget make notice parent widget parent widget w n text n control n exit n cancel create a button and provide a callback to pop up a notice w xtvacreatemanagedwidget quitbutton oblongbuttonwidgetclass parent xtnlabel exit null xtaddcallback w xtnselect pop notice null create the noticeshell widget note that you have to use xtvacreatepopupshell instead of the usual xtvacreatemanagedwidget notice shell xtvacreatepopupshell quitnotice noticeshellwidgetclass w null get the id of the text and control area widgets of the noticeshell xtvagetvalues notice shell xtntextarea n text xtncontrolarea n control null place a message in the text area of the noticeshell xtvasetvalues n text xtnstring please confirm exit from program null add buttons to the control area of the noticeshell each button has an appropriate callback n exit xtvacreatemanagedwidget noticeexit oblongbuttonwidgetclass n control xtnlabel exit null xtaddcallback n exit xtnselect do exit null n cancel xtvacreatemanagedwidget noticecancel oblongbuttonwidgetclass n control xtnlabel cancel xtndefault true null return w static void pop notice w emanate w notice widget w emanate w notice xtvasetvalues w notice xtnemanatewidget w emanate null pop up the noticeshell widget the noticeshell widget makes sure that the aplication waits until the user selects from one of the buttons in the noticeshell s control area xtpopup w notice xtgrabexclusive static void do exit w call data client data widget w xtpointer call data client data xclosedisplay xtdisplay w exit
comp.windows.x	re motifbc in article h m vtserf cc vt edu stellr smyrna cc vt edu ray stell writes if i install x r with backward compatibility for motif will motif clients work on the x r servers it works for me i ve run motif and on an x r server with motifbc defined daniel j mccoy space i net inc nasa mail code pt is tel nasa johnson space center our fax houston texas future mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov
comp.windows.x	re compiling ghostview under sun openwindows in ftms uucp brown ftms uucp vidiot writes in article c z a r curia ucc ie pflynn curia ucc ie peter flynn writes due it seems to sun s crapulous organisation of the x libraries and includes most standard gnu and other software won t compile out of the box well tar file right now i m trying to make ghostview it complains it can t find x xaw so i just linked ln s the files from usr openwin share include x and now the ghoddam thing still complains it can t find them i still haven t been able to compile xdvi not no way has anyone ever managed to get anything normal to compile on a sun sunos and openwindows what s the trick i m missing i ve even tried hard copying all the relevant files into the right places and every time there s some bit missing or it refuses to find it sounds like you didn t load the support for those libraries when ow was loaded the xaw support was missing from ow but added in harvard ucbvax uwvax astroatc ftms brown or uu psi com ftms brown rutgers internet brown wi extrel com or ftms brown astroatc uucp cs wisc edu or the library might be there but not pointed to by ld library path michael
misc.forsale	re maxtor info needed was re unix pc software for sale in article cup portal com thad cup portal com thad p floryan writes in article colinm cunews colinm max carleton ca colin mcfadyen writes does anyone know what the jumpers should be set to on the maxtor i have a that came off of a vs that i would like to use on a pc useful info about the maxtor drive deleted since the b normally has only one hd you would jumper betwwwn c to select the first possible drive address if the is your second drive on the b then jumper between c however thad you should note that he said that he would like to use it on a pc not unix pc also note the strange cross posting as he probably did not so it is not sure exactly what sort of machine he intends to mount it on if it is a pc or clone then the c jumper would be the correct choice i ve left the cross posting in effect since i m not sure which newsgroup he would really be reading this in don email dnichols d and d com uunet ceilidh dnichols dnichols ceilidh beartrack com donald nichols don voice days eves black holes are where god is dividing by zero
misc.forsale	for sale misc computer parts a radar detector i have the following computer items for sale item condition price a color ega card and monitor working monitor made by zenith b mx ns simms by mt working each k ns simms by oki working each k ns simms by it working each k ns simms by motorola working each k ns simms by nec working each note all the above simms left over from numerous macintosh upgrade i did over the years if you have questions as to which one fits your mac please mail me back c ast fastram card with k working each could be upgraded to m with the dram in item d d k ns dram by ti working each k ns dram by oki working each k ns dram by hunydai working each e compaq classic portable computer working k floppy drives amber inch screen k ram f serial card working each g western digital disk controller working wd wah f x bit card for floopy and harddisk h logitech buttons mechanical working serial mouse i full size at case with working w power supply full size at case with working w power supply this is the original case for my ast premium computer it could have up to half height devices three of which could be floopy drives tape drive etc i am also including the original motherboard which condition is unknown j m floopy drive working each floopy drive working k adaptec b scsi adapter brand new l wangtek es scsi m working tape drive m height m mfm drive working by miniscribe height m mfm drive working by seagate st height m mfm drive working by seagate n prodigy start up kit for brand new pc with data fax modem the following items i am selling as is all the them are in unknown condition either i never get it to work or never try to hook it up o ega card unknown p multi function game clock unknown parallel serial port card q monochrome graphics columns unknown graphics card r cdc m scsi drive unknown q miniscribe m scsi drive unknown r prodigy start up kit unknown free s ast g plus chip unknown t seagate m mfm drive unknown model st i bought the radar detector a couple years ago for obvious reason s and i have never been ticketed for the past years and now i don t drive to work anymore so i would rather sell it u whristler radar detector working x k bands if you would like to buy any of the above items please mail me at jack acs bu edu also a automatic discount will apply if your total purchase price is or more except the two brand new items buyer s pay shipping if you think the prices i listed above is unrealistic please mail me back and i would take your advice into consideration and make the proper adjustments the reason i am selling this stuff is because i have decided that i had enough with this hobby of pc computing and i want to move on other interests one last thing if you know any non profit organization whom might be interested in my equipments please let me know because if no one wants to buy them i might as well donate them and get a tax break thanks jack jack acs bu edu bitnet ccjcc buacca jack c chan boston university arpa jack bu it bu edu internet jack bu it bu edu
misc.forsale	re maxtor info needed was re unix pc software for sale in apr d and d com dnichols d and d com don nichols writes in article cup portal com thad cup portal com thad p floryan writes in article colinm cunews colinm max carleton ca colin mcfadyen writes does anyone know what the jumpers should be set to on the maxtor i have a that came off of a vs that i would like to use on a pc useful info about the maxtor drive deleted since the b normally has only one hd you would jumper betwwwn c to select the first possible drive address if the is your second drive on the b then jumper between c however thad you should note that he said that he would like to use it on a pc not unix pc also note the strange cross posting as he probably did not so it is not sure exactly what sort of machine he intends to mount it on if it is a pc or clone then the c jumper would be the correct choice i ve left the cross posting in effect since i m not sure which newsgroup he would really be reading this in sorry for any confusion i may have created the disk did come out of a vs and i would like to use it in a ibm pc clone the reason that i posted to comp sys b was because i saw the drive xt mentioned in a for slae notice i had asked for info before but didn t receive any replies thanks once again for the help colin
misc.forsale	sell chemical condensers condensers kimble modern liebig west jacket length mm all glass straight tubes plastic gasketed end caps exactly like central scientific s series condensers being sold in american science surplus s april catalog for each in original old packaging i have of these each volume discounts buy discount bonus free insurance free shipping and insurance for quality control all have been opened and inspected for damage buyer must pay for shipping insurance unless otherwise noted shipping should be about for one or two for three or four etc insurance should be about per tube sugarman cs umb edu univ home standard disclaimer boston massachusetts usa
misc.forsale	cheap harddisk for your pc xt i have a few the original ibm mb harddisks for sale they are actually seagate s st mfm full height has the ibm logo and black face plate each disk is checked and formatted with dos it can be doubled to mb or so with dblspace or stacker if you so desire have the original ibm foam fitted boxies and anti static bags i am not sure if they were ever used but each drive that is sent out will be quarenteed in good working order each plus shipping cost about if you have one of those old ibm xt or pcs this is for you it s cheaper than a floppy drive
misc.forsale	genesis more games for sale updated and expanded sega genesis games for sale all these games just each galaxy force ii jordan vs bird one on one shoot outs etc powerball test drive ii the duel comes in box valis iii by renovation also for sale sportstalk football starring joe montana all games include manual and case shipping is per order nd day priority john baker
misc.forsale	re unix pc software for sale hello i have two b s for sale one of them is a mb ram and the other one is a mb ram system they are both running the m version and i have loaded lots of software on them from the network like gcc emacs tex latex and so on i am asking for the mb and for the mb model or best offer odysseas pentakalos odysseas umbc umbc edu or university of md electrical engineering dept odysseas polaris medinfo ab umd edu
misc.forsale	quantum lps at meg ide forsale hi netters quantum lps at harddisk forsale frame height ide format master or slave cyl hd s t real megs access time of ms k cache on the drive asking email me jakers uhunix uhcc hawaii edu
misc.forsale	bus tix for sale lehigh philly i have two bus tickets for sale from bethlehem pa lehigh university to philadelphia pa tickets good until august for both obo please email at tsai eniac seas upenn edu or call joe tsai tsai eniac seas upenn edu the wharton school a the school of engineering heels back to back and applied science the university of pennsylvania flowers often bloom at night r e m xx
misc.forsale	irwin tapes dc s for sale well if you have an irwin mb here is a great deal for you genuine irwin accutrak tapes ea m dc tapes ea all the avove tapes are new never used and factory preformatted email if interested feng the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill the campus office for information technology or the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu or
misc.forsale	c computer disk drives mouse and software for sale all finally cleaned out the storage room and have the following items for sale c computer disk drives mouse all cables lots of software mostly games the computer and drives work hooked it to the tv to test except for sound evidently the sound chip is gone when geos was loaded the mouse would not respond so assume it is bad could be used for the games or for spare parts if interested would accept any reasonable offers send replies to ihlpl rsbrd or call ron byrd
misc.forsale	buing accelerator i had a deal on one but the buyer disappear so here we go again i am in the market for an inexpensive accelerator for series lucas frances a or similair preferred if you have something like this please offer me my address is hsneits nyx cs du edu and you propably can reach me at my home too
misc.forsale	for sale kenwood receiver for sale kenwood audio visual surround sound receiver yrs old perfect condition still under year warranty watts x front x watts rear surround dobly surround video tape cd phono input full easy touch button control for all functions bass treble balance rear level knobs earphone input digital synthesized tuner with fm am presets full logic remote control with volume mute tuner and other controls has three outlets in the back can connect all your equipment and turn them on at the same time includes manuals cables and original packaging a great addition for anyone starting out a home theater or stereo system originally purchased at asking email jburgin ralph cs haverford edu phone thank you for your time
misc.forsale	sharp wizard oz for sale sharp wizard oz electronic organizer w k ram home and world clocks calendar schedular anniversary and periodic dates telephone directories business card directory calculator outliner memos x screen qwerty style keyboard alarms password protection pc computer interface requires cable software card slot w touch screen vt terminal builitin requires cable and modem i also have have an external battery pack that uses aa s mail order price sharp battery pak asking for the whole deal unit is in perfect shape i just don t use as anything but an address book duane fields friends don t work box let friends use home college station tx ms dos email duanef tamu edu
misc.forsale	wanted tb samplevision driver for smdi peavey dpm sp sx is there anyone out there with a copy of the driver for turtle beach s samplevision program that allows you to use a always tech in scsi card to do smdi dumps between your pc and your peavey dpm sp sx sx this is normally only available directly from turtle beach but i was just wondering if there was someone who got it and couldn t find a use for it if you have a copy let me know cg sad icogsci ucsd edu
misc.forsale	commodore amiga for sale for sale complete amiga computer system or best offer amiga k ram internal external floppy diskette drive detachable keyboard two button mouse rgb monitor all the above equipment is made by commodore send e mail to allen zansiii millersv edu or call
misc.forsale	jeff mason s auction marvel dc image valiant etc the following comics are for auction the highest bid takes them new stuff added oooooh the mr t premium comic title minimum current alpha flight jim lee s first work at marvel aliens st app aliens in comics st prnt may krism three amazing spider man intro new green goblin amazing spider man st appearance hobgoblin archer and armstrong frank miller smith layton avengers st appearance x factor bloodshot chromium cover bwsmith cover poster same once daredevil frank miller art begins dark horse presents st app concrete st printing detective azrael appears intro cypher harbinger st appearance h a r d corps b matthey sold h a r d corps incredible hulk st app grey hulk since incredible hulk st mcfarlane issue incredible hulk grey hulk series begins incredible hulk st dale keown art in hulk incredible hulk st all new hulk st prnt keown marvel comics presents wolverine silver surfer maxx limited ashcan copies exist blue cover brentb three mr t signed advance copy exist new mutants mcfarlane cover st app cable cameo new mutants st app x force new mutants annual st liefeld art on new mutants omega men st appearance lobo omega men st full lobo story power man iron fist rd appearance sabretooth power man iron fist th appearance sabretooth simpsons comics and stories polybagged special ed spectacular spider man st app new hobgoblin star trek the next generation feb dc mini star trek the next generation oct dc comics trianglehead special limited edition autogrphed web of spider man hobgoblin wolverine appear web of spider man origin rose hobgoblin appears wolverine before claws st battle with sabretooth wolverine sabretooth claims to be wolverine s dad wolverine sabretooth proven not to be his dad wolverine sabretooth wolverine saga concludes wolverine mini series miller art wonder woman return of animal man x force signed by liefeld bagged x force card x force signed by liefeld bagged shatterstar card x force signed by liefeld bagged deadpool card x force signed by liefeld bagged sunspot gideon all comics are in near mint to mint condition are bagged in shiny polypropylene bags and backed with white acid free boards shipping is for one book for more than one book or free if you order a large enough amount of stuff i am willing to haggle i have thousands and thousands of other comics so please let me know what you ve been looking for and maybe i can help some titles i have posted here don t list every issue i have of that title i tried to save space geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department of psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university of florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	comic book set sale a z i am selling the following sets of comics listed are the guide prices overstreet or comics values monthly or wizard if i couldn t find it in overstreet as well as my price feel free to ask me about single items from the sets as i often have extra copies of some of the items in the set all comics are near mint to mint unless otherwise noted set titles guide price adventure comics set vf nm unless noted f vf animal man set animal man animal man tpb reprint wonder woman re intro animal man avengers set avengers avengers annual fish police fish police green arrow green arrow infinity gauntlet infinity gauntlet legion of super heroes legion of super heroes legion of super heroes l e g i o n lone wolf and cub lone wolf and cub omega men omega men omega men annual outcasts outcasts ragman ragman retief retief volume mad dog retief volume adventure retief of the c d t silver blade silver blade slash maraud slash maraud sleepwalker sleepwalker star trek star trek marvel vg f vf star trek next generation mini star trek next generation series strange adventures vf nm unless noted strange adventures f vf g g f vf superman superman superman annual superman the earth stealers superman the man of steel trekker trekker trouble with girls apache dick trouble with girls eternity trouble with girls comico v for vendetta v for vendetta video jack video jack warlock and the infinity watch warlock and the infinity watch warriors warriors x terminators x terminators i guarantee comic grading satisfaction if you are not satisfied with the grade i ve assigned to the book you can send it back and i will refund your money minus shipping costs i have thousands of other comics so if you are looking for something in particular please let me know i might be able to help out i reserve the right to refuse any offer geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department of psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university of florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	electronic components etc a bunch of things i have too many of chips type new pull price desc ad n bit serial d a converter smt like pcm tms gbl p ti dsp chip mc rc p make your own mac z std n piggyback emulator for z family d p p nec s eprom version dsp chip mk p p you gotta really want em lm n hitachi bitmapped display lots of others including v c v l r other stuff includes cipher tape drives data i o device programmer dont go apple laserwriter a beauty only k page mac k int drives cheers mike
misc.forsale	reduced sony cd players sale item sony es cdpx condition mint age year old price item sony cdp condition excellent age years old price everything comes with the original packaging and manuals these items have only been played through audiophile system and are in excellent shape if you are interested or need any additional information please e mail pc o andrew cmu edu or call me at home thanks pete p s yes these are for sale again
misc.forsale	klipsch forte spkrs sale item klipsch forte speakers condition mint age months old price pair retail pair these speakers are in perfect condition and used only in audiophile system they are floor standing and come with all the original packagaing and literature they are also still under warranty if you are interested or have any questions please feel free to e mail pc o andrew cmu edu or call me at home thanks jon
misc.forsale	pc games for sale jordan in flight td pc games for sale both games in original package and original docs jordan in flight s h test drive s h or obo contact bob at rwrona ihlpb att com
misc.forsale	looking for a teacher in miami sounds a little odd but i sold an amiga hand scanner to an elementary school teacher in south florida miami i think but i have just recently found that i still have the scanner manual the original shipment included the software manual disks packaging etc basically i have since lost the name address of the person i sold it to and i would like to get it to him if that person sees this please send me an email to dlneal cbda apgea army mil thanx and sorry for taking up net space dennis
misc.forsale	mazda high miles low price mazda dx or best offer nada blue book for mileage e mail or call ron at work or home miles all highway i used to commute miles day speed air conditioning am fm cassette stereo split fold down rear seat liter valve fuel injected engine roomy interior comfy back seats big trunk well maintained oil and filter every other maintanence as scheduled except for the timing belt which still looks new i did slip and went miles without changing the oil once tires have miles lots of life left probably to front brake job at back brakes are still good engine trans drive train in perfect condition everything works nothing needs replacing next tune up scheduled at body is good left tail light is cracked i m trying to find a used one dealer wants two long scratches and a ding on the hood vandalism a bunch of stone chips on the front of the hood official mazda touch up paint included in the deal this car is extremely reliable even better than the toyota corolla it replaced besides the tires brakes and maintanence items the only other parts that have been replaced are the headlight bulbs selling because my wife refuses to drive a car without an automatic trans and she wants a station wagon with a sun roof etc etc ron deblock rdb homxb att com that s a number in rdb not letter l at t bell labs somerset nj usa
misc.forsale	wanted beach rental nc seeking north carolina beach rental desire house for two families adults kids for one week in late june early july fred masterson fmaster ravel udel edu psychology department fred masterson mvs udel edu university of delaware gnm udelvm bitnet newark de usa
misc.forsale	sweet macintosh nu bus card forsale i have recently purchased a pb and have no more use for my rasterops xl it has been a great card i should have traded it with my iici but i forgot my forgetfulness si your gain great bit video that supports x apple x apple portrait x silly dos monitor resolution x hz hz x apple has hardware pan zoom and supports virtual desktops up to the size of newspaper pages includes standard apple monitor cable or card to bnc you choose i am asking it s still advertised in macworld for up to completely negotiable i can get a monitor and sell the pair i will accept offers for software or powerbook accessory trades make an offer rj kohlhepp novell systems staff kohlhepp cae wisc edu computer aided engineering
misc.forsale	new young seagate mb hard drive greetings netters i have a seagate mb ide drive forsale i bought it yesterday and have been able to come across a mb that i am going to buy but i need to sell this one i guarantee that it will work there is still a transferable warranty i believe it was only used as a boot drive not a server source drive i just want my money back out of it thanks a lot and offers appreciated dave kari sage cc purdue edu
misc.forsale	mac software for sale claris filemaker pro database manager for sale still in package or best offer call ask for larry do not respond to this account
misc.forsale	for sale laptop pc bernoulli drive scanner desktop pc i am posting this for a friend please do not respond to this account if you are interested in any of the following ask for rob at laptop pc sx mhz cpu mb ram mb hard drive vga graphics greyscale lcd external vga port high density floppy drive removable key keyboard external keyboard port serial parallel and expansion ports expansion unit available which has full size card slots bernoulli drive dual mb disk drives mb cartridges comes with disks external unit scanner logitech scanman desktop pc dx mhz cpu mb ram mb hard drive math co processor super vga graphics key keyboard mouse high density floppy drive high density floppy drive serial parallel ports
misc.forsale	stereo gear for sale cambridge audio integrated amp p w stereo solid state w box list want cambridge audio tuner t presets list want cambridge audio preamp c list want klipschorns the klipschorns speakers legends in there own time list k want very big corner loaded will play to unbelieveable volumes with very little power arthur noguerola vos stratus com
misc.forsale	for sale pontiac grand prix se for sale pontiac grand prix se door coupe white white rims gray interior k miles mostly highway litre v multi port fuel injected engine speed manual transmission one owner options include a c rear defogger power steering power brakes power windows power locks power mirrors cruise control power glass moonroof with sunshade power seat recliner driver s power seat comfort lumbar headrest both front seats trunk pass through for skis am fm cassette stero speakers electronic monitor service system with graphic compass stereo controls duplicated on steering wheel remote keyless entry and others asking the car looks and rides like it just rolled off of the dealers lot it has been garaged and pampered it gets an average of mpg highway sometimes better city is around mpg depending on how it is driven selling because of baby coming soon need door family car will consider trade or partial trade with ford taurus mercury sable or door pontiac grand am or similar american car i live in the boston ma area contact mike at home work or michaelq tlaloc sw stratus com
misc.forsale	mb scsi a friend of mine would like to sell his mb scsi drive for s h it is a full height drive and has been used for about one and a half years if anyone is interested please e mail me thank you jeffrey berthiaume s cs utexas edu
misc.forsale	wanted books i mposting this for my emplyer who doesn t have net access but you can reply here and i ll get the message to him my boss is looking for two books on the group mamas and papas papa john by john phillips california dreaming he told me who wrote it but i don t remember he d prefer hardcover but paperback will do if you have these and are willing to sell e mail me here and i ll pass the me ssage along thank you scott wilson
misc.forsale	hp laserjet iii for sale hi i have a hp laserjet iii for sale it s been printed for less than pages according the self test report i am asking for it if interested please e mail thanks
misc.forsale	v a power supplies f each shipping two lh research sm power supplies sm series w v a currently wired for vac control lines sense on off pwr fail high lo margin current monitor they both work list price from lh research is f qty asking each shipping steve
misc.forsale	furniture sale posted for a friend all in brand new condition less than years old full size bed mattress box spring frame white night table drawer x white dresser drawer plus mirror x x height white pantry entertainment center natural wood color coffee table glass top and base x two white floor lamps each one foldable table x four foldable chairs each if interested call lourdes soto pm x am pm
misc.forsale	dec lk aa pc keyboard for sale dec lk aa pc keyboard for sale automatically senses machine type and switches between at xt modes same exact key layout as dec s vt xx vt xx etc with dec names on keys as well as pc names standard at xt cable included great for use with a vtxxx terminal emulator all the keys are there and in the correct place i e gold pf pf etc perfect condition very good feel shipping dec price was around send email if you have questions thanks keith keith radio nl nuwc navy mil
misc.forsale	paintball gun sale tippman special semi auto rifle round feeder inch barrel composite inch barrel composite inch barrel composite oz co tank silencer rounds of paint plus whatever else i have in the box all this for or best offer why you take the most gallant sailor the most intrepid airman or the most audacious soldier put them at a table together what do you get the sum of their fears winston churchill
misc.forsale	arcade video games for sale in northern virginia for sale in northern virgina arcade video games asteroids omega race both are upright video games in excellent condition robert w mangum ii email robert monster apd saic com hertford street work herndon va home
misc.forsale	for sale meg esdi drive and meg x dram for sale st e seagate esdi drive meg unformatted without controller a friend has tested this on his controller and says that it works as is meg kx ns dram each or please call or email thanks veenu
misc.forsale	for sale c system commodore d s disk drive joysticks mouse lotsa software both games and apps rapid fire joystick adapter all necessary cables about a year old obo c ommon pchang ic sunysb edu s ense state university of new york stony brook e ngineer
misc.forsale	wanted wwf album i am looking for a copy of the first world wrestling federation album in record format will pay for a good condition record and original album jacket and inserts the album i am looking for has a picture of a bunch of the wrestlers ina recording studio front and back with the good guy wrestlers and the bad guy wrestlers making faces at each other songs include land of a thousand dances or something like that please email me here at hsano cs ulowell edu same account that appears on the header
misc.forsale	re borland c w app frmwrks forsale in article apr ryn mro dec com shapiro sofbas enet dec com steve shapiro writes i have recently converted to microsoft visual c i no longer want my borland c w application frameworks product this version is about months old i have all of the manuals disks etc it is licensed to me but i will transfer the license to the purchaser under the accepted terms of the borland license agreement the list price for the product is about i have seen it advertised for as low as i will accept the best offer over plus shipping as described above which is the list price plus i m tossing in the books listed above which are a value i ll sell mine for o b o never used i ve decided i just don t have the time to get into c clarke w whitehead tscwhitehead cc weber edu
misc.forsale	color zenith tv for sale color zenith tv for sale remote control if interested please call or e mail peng ece ucsd edu must sell by apr thank you for you attention
misc.forsale	digital voice processor for sale hi all i have a korg dvp for sale for shipping for those who ve not had the pleasure it is a midi controlled no keyboard of it s own rackmountable digital voice processor what can it do with your voice it can pitch shift it change the notes you sing it can add harmonies to your singing up to parts at one time it can change your voice into a synthesizer s voice but leave what you say alone and intelligible this works well for a computerized sounding singer or robot voice for those of you who just thought about that yes you can do the voices from robo cop and the old elo lead ins with it and yes i m a little red faced to say that i tried those specifically for an input it takes both xlr prong mic and cables for output you can have a combination of the original input only and your choice of mix between the original signal and the effect can be effect only if desired it has preset setups which you can edit and save for your own preferences it has a couple of light scratches but does not look bad and works flawlessly even when we don t use it in my music it s been good for after hours fun in the studio the manual is included i never got around to getting rack ears for it but it has only gotten studio use from me no roading so it s not beaten oooooooo o o steve hitch oo o oo oo my opinions are my own nobody would want to oooo oo oo take responsibility for them anyway i will oooooooooooooooooooooooooo eventually hang for them but i m happy oo oo ooo ooo internet shitch imd sterling com oooooooo ooo ooo uucp uunet sparky shitch
misc.forsale	rock and roll cheap i have a stack of records lp that are from the early sixtys to mid seventys with groups like the beatles cream woodstock triple album etc etc that i would like to get rid of i would be willing to sell one or all for whatever resonable offer some albums still have the original wrapper and price tag i would like to get around for each or you can call and make offer on the lot i could list them all but i d be typing forever call
misc.forsale	anybody remember a few weeks back there was a post originating from russia advertising large quantities of red mercury for sale stirred up a bit of controversy at the time then this morning npr relates the news of a corruption scandal involving the russian defense minister among others selling defense items among which strangely enough was red mercury you don t suppose bill batty abekas video systems inc net abekas billb pyramid com
misc.forsale	printer for sale for sale pin printer alps allegra asking price shipped prepaid c o d orders pay c o d shipping features straight paper path won t jam paper saving tear off capability no need to waste a sheet to get a current printout programmable preferences you don t even need a computer letter quality dpi output epson lq emulation built in card slot for additional memory font upgrades printer ribbons easily found there are three or four sources for alps ribbons in every computer shopper fast cps output this printer has not even been used in the last two years three years old because i have a laser printer at work and use that instead originally i ll even throw in two ribbons may need simple reinkings tho adisak pochanayon university avenue apartment j madison wi cut here jeez it never fails get in the tub and there s a rub at the lamp the genie from aladdin pochanay cae wisc edu eddie adisak pochanayon check out all of silverfox software s releases your amiga entertainment cut here
misc.forsale	wanted fax machine the sub says it all thnx tatsuy
misc.forsale	sale bally s jack lallane membership two jack lallane gold memberships are for sale by the owners asking for for each membership please contact padma srini at for details thanks
misc.forsale	computer stuff for sale hp b pen plotter fujistu m e meg scsi tape drive sony meg scsi disk drive sticks once in a while dead maxtor xt e meg esdi drive dead miniscribe meg scsi drive adaptac scsi to st interface board daughter boards from tape drives qic qic twist terms vt terms that the head twists on for x or x analog rgb color monitor khz works nice with amiga s spool with feet of conductor ribbon cable all prices are or best offer prices do not include ups shipping all items working except those stated as dead matthew
misc.forsale	volkswagon scirocco for sale from mikefran wed apr edt article of csc general newsgroups dc forsale dc general um general csc general path wam umd edu mikefran from mikefran wam umd edu michael francis subject car for sale message id apr wam umd edu keywords volkswagon scirocco sender usenet wam umd edu usenet news system nntp posting host rac wam umd edu organization workstations at maryland university of maryland college park distribution csc um dc date wed apr gmt volkswagon scirocco gold exterior and interior speed transmission am fm stereo with cassette sunroof engine in good condition new tires needs work on front left control arm because of damage caused by pothole runs well asking as is obo email mikefran wam umd edu
misc.forsale	re toyota camry super deluxe k in article davidkc uucr h d netcom com davidk netcom com david kiviat write s toyota camry top of the line vehicle blue book asking k miles auto transmission has everything owned by a meticulous automoble mechanic call ask for bob posted for a friend i have a toyota camry deluxe for sale k miles power everything grey years newer than above for k all highway miles excellent condition rob fusi rwf lehigh edu new jersey ask for bob fusi
misc.forsale	metallica cd one i have a jap import of one on cd single it contains one breadfan for whom the bell tolls live sanitarium live one demo make offer andy
misc.forsale	house for sale by owner house for sale by owner selling price owner steve and joyce harvey phone address ne ct vancouver washington legal discrition lot bush gardens recorded in volume g of plats page records of clark county builder triangle land built in leader us bancorp mortgage co fha loan balance assumable lot size ft deep x ft wide square footage improved living area of sq ft and double garage area of about sq ft taxes real estate taxes utilities water sewer city of vancouver electric clark county pud recycle garbage vancouver sanitary insulation clark county pud weatherization completed by taseca homes schools evergreen school district access shopping near i and vancouver mall home discription bedroom bath ranch with new roof new paint in and out new mini blinds sunken living room with vaulted ceiling corner fireplace with wood stove insert kitchen has refinished cabinets new sink new dishwasher drop in range and refrigerator has ceiling fans in living room and all three bedrooms well lit large double garage has new steel insulated door work bench shelves and space for washer and dryer yard discription nicely landscaped fenced yard with lots of trees and shrubs garden ft x ft storage shed concrete patio and security lighting trees include apple pear cherry plum and walnut
misc.forsale	vouchers for sale must sell items for sale nishika d camera it takes very good picture never been opended or used it came with wide angle flesh carring case film and a instruction video it has four lens and created a d effect on a regular mm film jewelry it came with the package as additional gift bahama vacation voucher the voucher is good for two rt airfare to freeport the users get a special hotel rate of per person per night meals ground transfer hotel tax is not included las vegas reno orlando the voucher provides one rt airfare and hotel accomodation for days nights meals ground transfer hotel tax is not included the voucher is good for all locations but you can t travel to all places at once cancun mexico the voucher provides one rt airfare and hotel accomodation for days nights meals and ground transfer hotel tax is not included as usual asking for or best offer i paid for the whole package and it is too late for me to get the refund i would sell it for for the whole package details could be provided by request i do wish to sell the whole package at once so if you are just looking for the vacation vouchers i don t care if you sell the camera to other for a higher price if you are interested in the camera you could treat the vacation vouchers as gift some of you might receive a letter in your mail box which says that you are selected to be part of the sweeptake and you have at least one out of five awards trust me you would get the exactly the same package as i did there is only one award which will be given away so don t bother even to call them back if you are really interested you could get it from me for a cheaper price and you could receive the package within a week i waited three months to get my first and final packages also they would ask for your credit card number and you have to pay for the interest to the credit card company so why spend more than you should when you could get them from me for a cheaper price if you are interested please reply to me as soon as posible i really wish to get this over with make me an offer if i am confortable with your offer i would send the package by u p s the next day morning more details could be given if you wish please contact me at koutd hirama hiram edu douglas kou hiram college e mail address koutd hirama hiram edu
misc.forsale	re us robotics dual standard modem sale in article apr samba oit unc edu sean donovan launchpad unc edu sean donovan writes us robotics external dual standard latest roms still under warranty v v bis v bis mnp hst compatible as well b o over sells for well over mail order sells for here southern california almost everywhere dave demers demers cs ucsd edu computer science engineering demers cs ucsd bitnet uc san diego ucsd cs demers la jolla ca or fax
misc.forsale	car for sale vw corrado i m posting this for a friend but you can e mail questions to me at gyeh cc bellcore com however the best way to get your questions answered is to call the phone number listed for sale volkswagon corrado coupe low mileage approx miles speed manual speaker factory blaupunkt stereo system new all weather yokohamas vr sun roof ac red speed activated spoiler extra set of tires pirelli p vr equipped with factory winter package heated seats mirrors and nozzles alpine security system with remotes all records documentation service pampered car mint condition must sacrifice at or best offer call
misc.forsale	re vhs video for sale is this not the same movie that sold at mcdonald s for new
misc.forsale	fs drum acc analog synth computer things cheap hitachi cd player needs cd spin motor shipped joysticks an ibm apple joystick three fire buttons apple joy stick c e kraft track ball make offers coleco vision items two working consoles w working controllers in great shape one roller ball controller two super action conrollers one standard joystick games sa baseball sa rocky sa football vic and c with powersupplies and rf modulators make an offer vic catridges raid on fort knox omega race early s epiphone acoustic guitar spruce top mohogany back sides and neck adjustable bridge plays very nice small hole in side for jack had a pickup at one time shipping yamaha cs analog synthesizer three octave keyboard vco single oscillator range from to tone sources saw tooth square noise and external sound vca can be modulated vcf cut off resonance lfo mod envelope generator depth pitch bend slider cv in and out trigger in and out external tone source in the keyboard is in perfect working order and is colored black and white shipping drum stuff north heavy duty hi hat stand older stand but definately in working shape could use a little clean up comes with clutch and felts etc pearl bass drum pedal with felt beater honer cymbal stand needs some work on cymbal stem zildjian ride cymbal main line zildjian older ride cymbal ludwig snare stand okay snare stand not like a remo though shipping extra please email if you have questions about anything please email me stephen m jones sdf system administrator smj sdf lonestar org cs e
misc.forsale	ibm ps mhz adaptec scsi systm i would like to sell my ps model with its kingston sx now mhz processor a cyrix fasmath coprocessor cpu fpu landmark scores of mhz mhz meg meg total on a ast advantage board wait state original meg hard drive and a very fast adaptec scsi controller card worth around new with software to control any external or internal scsi device i m including dos or and keyboard the vga will drive any multisynching or straight vga cheap monitor please email me directly with inquiries offers so i can return my phone to you via email
misc.forsale	toshiba sl sl notebook for sale for sale toshiba sl notebook computer specs sl k cache mhz mb ram meg ms ide hard drive meg floppy lbs w nickle hydride battery installed edgelit greyscale vga display ps mouse port external keyboard port pcmcia port external expansion port external vga port serial parallel ports socket for sl numeric coprocessor user installable memory is expandable to meg voted editor s choice by pc magazine an expansion station is available from toshiba axionics also makes one that is more economical power conservation options user definable hard drive powerdown period screen dimming auto stepdown of cpu speed to mhz after definable interval etc comments purchased locally at micro center in columbus oh months ago all original packaging receipts and manuals are included under warranty the keyboard on this machine is the best i ve seen i prefer it to the keyboard on most desktop units i typically get hours of battery life the battery recharges in hours to full charge the machine is quite speedy i run os beta on it currently and will leave this operating system installed unless you prefer ms dos included i ll include a padded carrying case also made by toshiba price terms semi firm certified check if outside of columbus i will pay for cod shipping please respond with all queries to grichard cis ohio state edu or call golden richard iii osu dept of computer and information sciences grichard cis ohio state edu
misc.forsale	tapes for sale the following cassette tapes are for sale each each for multiple orders shipping included trades can be arranged some of the cases are somewhat worn with a few cracks but the tapes are all in good condition and sound fine e mail to the posting account thanks the who who s greatest hits bachman turner overdrive best of bto so far van halen ou the doors the best of the doors the cars door to door the cars greatest hits phil collins face value no jacket required tears for fears songs from the big chair thanks dave david hillman nothing measurable matters the university of chicago a very good god damn dahillma midway uchicago edu e e cummings
misc.forsale	toyota camry toyota camry deluxe model sp power windows power door locks power steering power brakes am fm cassette k highway miles excellent condition day until pm after pm ask for bob fusi rob fusi rwf lehigh edu e mail or call for more info
misc.forsale	re vhs movies must sell because i am moving in article apr hiramb hiram edu koutd hiramb hiram edu dougla s kou writes those vhs movies have to be sold because i am moving in weeks douglas kou how much room can videotapes take up in the moving van why not just take them with you bsme mba looking for a job hiring e mail jwg lehigh edu take a walk on the wild side biffman lehigh university o bethlehem pa usa o j o h n g e w a r t o w s k i
misc.forsale	test test
misc.forsale	transformer wanted for my dead compacq vga monitor my compacq vga monitor id dead due to the transformer s failure if you have this part and would like to get rid of it pls let me know thanks eric
misc.forsale	sony amplifier and crossover for sale for sale sony car stereo amplifier model xm rated power wx into ohms from hz thd ohm stable short circuit and overload protected this is a great little amplifier that i picked up as a demo model at lechmere last spring and never got a chance to install it s been tested and it works great a perfect amplifier for adding speaker power to a system or for powering mids or tweets whatever mounted on a board complete with a rs amp noise filter with all connections made to barrier strips for easy screw type contacts lists new in crutchfield for am asking o b o complete sony electronic crossover model xec freq response hz db s n ratio db a wtd high pass x over flat hz db octave low pas x over hz db octave din size for in dash installation in many cars this to l is an exceptional unit which i found extremely useful back in the days when i had a car to put a stereo in two sets of rca type inputs f r and three sets of outputs f r sub each output with seperate level control variable low boost control db hz for extending low bass and seperate high and low pass crossover points make this a great unit for anybody who s interested in building a sub satellite type system used with orig box papers o b o both units work flawlessly and are in excellent shape cosmtically ie no scratches etc anyone who is interested please respond to coates wpi wpi edu i ll be happy to answer any questions you might have oh yeah if you want both i ll sell the amp with th x over for or so thanks jeff
misc.forsale	wanted sharp el im looking to but a sharp el scientific calculator the model is discontinued but if you know of any dealer which may have them around please reply jason does the word duh mean jason adam kahana anything to you kahana ils nwu edu northwestern university buffy the vampire slayer the institute for the learning sciences
misc.forsale	moving sale moving sale large table four drawer dresser five shelf book case chair speed bicycle khs brand microwave oven call
misc.forsale	for sale hayes external modem personal modem for mac i have for sale a hayes personal modem external for the macintosh really nice small think plugs directly into a power plug ands has two long cables for to the phone and the other to your macintosh get back to me if you are interested with an offer thanks in advance khoh usc edu
misc.forsale	for sale casio boss sf personal business organizer casio b o s s sf organizer k with casiolink hardware software nice personal organizer that is in excellent shape it allows you to store phone numbers addresses do searches etc business cards info schedules and calender and also provides home work time and calculator also has password protection and alarms nice line lcd screen and mini qwerty keyboard comes with casiolink that lets you interface it with your computer mac ibm and transmit receive data all forms i have the software for the macintosh that runs it nifty tool for people on the go if you are interested please email an offer thanks i have necessary instruction manuals and all cables thanks khoh usc edu
misc.forsale	for sale direct slot adapter card for the mac iisi for sale direct slot adapter card for the mac iisi with a mac coprocessor on it as well if this what you are looking for let me know email an offer as well if you are interested thanks khoh usc edu
misc.forsale	for sale x meg simms ns for the macintosh for sale i have four meg simms ns for the macintosh if you want to upgrade that mac iisi iici or whatever email your offer thanks khoh usc edu
misc.forsale	for sale silverlining hard disk management software last two copies of silverlining from la cie for sale this is disk management software lets you evalulate test hard drive install and test drivers partition disks supports aux prodos etc nice piece of software to have around the house if you are interested please email your offers first good offer also gets mactree disk organization software free khoh usc edu
misc.forsale	for sale x meg ns simms for the macintosh i have for sale two x meg ns simms for the macintosh aka fastones if you are interested please email an offer khoh usc edu
misc.forsale	for sale practical peripherals external modem nice little really compact cream colored external modem good for the mac or ibm i will throw in a cable for an extra or so if you are interested email me an offer khoh usc edu
misc.forsale	amiga and hst for sale cheap for sale amiga megs ram monitor extra external hard drive much sotware games graphics productivity etc usr hst modem not dual standard amiga software usr hst modem price for both rrmorris midway ecn uoknor edu
misc.forsale	for sale cdrom searchdisc uswest phone directory i have for sale teh uswest searchdisc cdrom phone directory this has the names phone number address business residence information for all regions covered by us west states includes oregon washington colorado new mexico arizona idaho wyoming montana utah minnesota nebraska iowa north dakota and south dakota have have two cdrom disks one for june the other for oct if you are interested make an offer thanks khoh usc edu
misc.forsale	genesis sega cd games forsale sega genesis sega cd forsale recently moved in with some friends who have genesis cd player so i m selling my whole setup i d like to sell everything together the package come with sega genesis sega cd joysticks pad sewer shark cd sol feace cd sega classics cd games on cd streets of rage revenge of shinobi columns golden axe sherlock holmes cd cd g music graphics sampler john madden cart i m selling all of the above for plus i ll split shipping i don t want to sell things seperately please reply to jth bach udel edu thanks jay
misc.forsale	sx for sale for sale sx mz meg ram meg maxtor ide hard disk ami bios stb powergraph svga mb up to x x loop color svga monitor dot pitch diskette drives desktop case turbo reset switches hard drive led keyboard serial parallel game port serial button fully ms compatible mouse everex bps external modem with mnp dos windows logitech scanman handscanner with all software docs box asking for system call norton si is in the range of
misc.forsale	many business books for sale good prices i have the following busines books best sellers for sale all in excellent order if you are interested email me an offer zapp the lightning of empowerment william pyham jeff cox harmony books beware the naked man who offers you his shirt harvey mackay william morrow co what they still don t reach you at harvard mark h mccormack bantam books megatrends new directions for the s john nisbitt p aburdene william morrow co phone power george walther putnam books what every supervisor should know liester r bittel j newstrom mcgraw hill maximarketing new directions in advertising stan rapps tom collins mcgraw hill outsmarting the competition john mcgongale jr sourcebooks professional speaking lilyan wilder simon schuster managing management time william ocken jr prentice hall getting praised raised and recognized muriel solomon prentice hall getting what you want how to reach agreement kare anderson dutton let s talk quality philip b crosby mcgraw hill frontal attack divide and conquer richard buskirk wiley den of thieves james b stewart simon schuster vision stanley davis bill davidson fireside simon schuster if you are intersted email please khoh usc edu
misc.forsale	items for sale less items for sale price listed or best offer kfc svga monitor x dp non interlaced screen still under warranty brand new baud compuadd modem box docs software cga monitor with cga parallel card sco unix v unlimited user os has the base and extended utilities and uucp turbo c turbo c the complete reference book serial i o card serial port joystick three button ide controller with serial parallel and one game port each ask for ralf
misc.forsale	foot switches and guitar i ve got foot switches for sale they appear to be designed for studio use ie they re very well built in diameter cord i d like but i d also like to sell them so make me an offer also i just bought a new ibanez guitar so i need to sell one of my others it s a kramer with passive emg pickups single one double these pickups sound great and are whisper quiet i d like to get for it jason settle down raise a family join the pta buy some sensible shoes and a chevrolet and party till you re broke and they drag you away it s ok al yankovic
misc.forsale	hard drive m ide only months old i am upgrading my hard drive so i am selling this m drive it run great without any problem for and share the shipping eric
misc.forsale	software for sale ms window ms works pc tool dos i have the following software for sale prices are neogotiable ms window by gateway with manuals ms work with manuals pc tools with all manuals ms dos all softwares are almost new eric
misc.forsale	wanted hp calculator hello i am looking for a hp s or hp sx calculator if anyone has one they are getting rid of please let me know reply to jmparkin mtu edu thanks jeremy jeremy parkinson aka slimy i d give my right arm to be ambitexterous jmparkin mtu edu unknown
misc.forsale	forsale searay hello my parents are selling a foot searay it is in excellent condition and runs great it has a mercruiser inboard outboard engine it is actually a chevy it is from the weekender class so it has a hard top over the driver has table stove water tank sink sleeping for much more it is a good all around or fishing boat if interested or for more info write tojmparkin mtu edu or call thanks jeremy jeremy parkinson aka slimy i d give my right arm to be ambitexterous jmparkin mtu edu unknown
misc.forsale	m scsi hd for sale please reply to the seller below m formatted scsi hard disk rodime ts available new drives unused capacity formatted mbytes number of data heads number of cylinders track density tpi positioning times track to track ms average ms full stroke max ms rotational speed rpm avg rotational latency ms scsi bus transfer rate m sec cache k guaranteed against doa works with sun pc mac misc other workstations these are internal drives no external drive enclosure is included price each including cod insured shipping within the continental u s please email responses to lee lee polarsun rna rockefeller edu
misc.forsale	honda accord for sale honda accord cyl lx hatchback d speed miles with am fm stereo cassette clutch alternator battery carburator rebuilt registration expires feb asking price please call fulvio location stevens creek blv cupertino ca
misc.forsale	sony mm camcorder for sale for sale sony mm camcorder model pro v top of the line a few years ago autofocus with macro capability x zoom lux rating pixel ccd chip the best made for a mm camcorder av input output jacks all cables included rf convertor switcher for tv without av input ac adaptor charger a battery neck trap user s manual mint condition list price for this model was i paid mail order a few years ago will sacrifice for or best offer reason for sale upgrade to hi model john n le at t bell labs naperville il usa email uucp att ihlpe jnl internet jnl ihlpe att com
misc.forsale	sony mm camcorder for sale for sale sony mm camcorder model pro v top of the line a few years ago autofocus with macro capability x zoom lux rating pixel ccd chip the best made for a mm camcorder av input output jacks all cables included rf convertor switcher for tv without av input ac adaptor charger a battery neck trap user s manual original box packings etc mint condition list price for this model was i paid mail order a few years ago will sacrifice for or best offer reason for sale upgrade to hi model john n le at t bell labs naperville il usa email uucp att ihlpe jnl internet jnl ihlpe att com
misc.forsale	claris filemaker for mac claris filemaker pro database manager for macintosh still unpackaged or best offer please call do not respond to this account
misc.forsale	wanted pasadenas cassette or cd a very good r b group came out in called the pasadenas i bought their cassette single and fell in love with it i ve tried to find their lp or cd but have had no success whatsoever just wondering whether anyone out in netland had heard of them their song that hit the charts was called tribute thanks jay jhdickerson amh amherst edu or jhdicker amhux amherst edu
misc.forsale	sherwood am fm stereo reciever for sale for sale sherwood am fm stereo reciever memory presets i think may be watts per channel or best offer please reply to gt c prism gatech edu thomas oates atlanta braves gt c prism gatech edu national league champions prodigy ngdr a can t stop the chop georgia institute of technology
misc.forsale	ms dos for sale for sale ms dos upgrade open but unregistered disks or best offer please mail replies to gt c prism gatech edu thomas oates atlanta braves gt c prism gatech edu national league champions prodigy ngdr a can t stop the chop georgia institute of technology
misc.forsale	pc tools for sale for sale pc tools version all original disks and manuals included or best offer please send replies to gt c prism gatech edu thomas oates atlanta braves gt c prism gatech edu national league champions prodigy ngdr a can t stop the chop georgia institute of technology
misc.forsale	for sale mazda mx mazda mx spd a c am fm cassette cruise tilt steering white w burgundy interior excellent condition k miles best offer rhonda rhonda gaines systems network administrator internet gaines fibercom com fibercom inc p o box uucp uunet fibercom gaines roanoke va fax phone or x
misc.forsale	photographic stuff to sell photographic spring cleaning following is partial list with more to come soon for exakta tessar lens plus front cap case meyer oreston lens plus front cap spiratone telxtender model ii plus orig case piesker co berlin extension bellows x x in orig box entire package for plus shipping for pentax or other universal screw mount cameras spiratone lens plus caps fujinon lens orig case aetna coligon lens plus caps entire package plus shipping enlarging lenses prinz el nikkor rodenstock ysaron busch pressman model c x with wollensak velostigmat in rapax shutter hexacon slr with tessar plus case shutter is sluggish but it s a collectible thus rolleicord v synchro compur xenar with case orig lens cap some fool got oil on the shutter blades so shutter is sluggish olympus om n body oil in viewfinder appears to work fine other wise no lens cotact printing frame mm strips of lockdown plate glass cover excellent condition omega s s developing tank mm reels nikkor s s developing tank reels kodak polycontrast filter set prices above exclusive of shipping conserve bandwith and don t come back with petty offers however i will consider trades of interesting exakta equipment for or toward any of the above still digging out leitz reprovit iia minox enlarger busch pressman x nikkor reels and tanks some x lenses shutters x lenses shutters e mail if interested and thanks for reading this
misc.forsale	mother board sale c t chip set mother board c t bios with meg ram ns reply with reasonable offer if you are interested thanks james
misc.forsale	re for sale kenwood receiver in article r ual a u venus haverford edu jburgin ralph cs haverford edu joshua marc burgin writes for sale kenwood audio visual surround sound receiver just a follow up note i have sold the receiver so don t e mail or call me anymore sorry to dissapoint anyone joshua
misc.forsale	pc tools pc tools all original disk manual registration card included disk size price shipping martin x mahdiarwi gw wmich edu
misc.forsale	mb scsi disk for sale i have a new opened box tested drive toshiba mk fb disk for sale mb formatted ms scsi year warranty i thought this would work but i need a larger drive for my system asking this is a great opportunity let me hear from you
misc.forsale	jeff mason s auction marvel dc valiant image etc the following comics are for auction the highest bid takes them title minimum current alpha flight jim lee s first work at marvel aliens st app aliens in comics st prnt may krism sold amazing spider man intro new green goblin amazing spider man st appearance hobgoblin archer and armstrong frank miller smith layton avengers st appearance x factor bloodshot chromium cover bwsmith cover poster same three cyberrad reintro cyberrad prestige silver edition daredevil frank miller art begins dark horse presents st app concrete st printing detective azrael appears intro cypher detective azrael appears harbinger st appearance h a r d corps b matthey sold h a r d corps incredible hulk st app grey hulk since incredible hulk st mcfarlane issue incredible hulk grey hulk series begins incredible hulk st dale keown art in hulk incredible hulk st all new hulk st prnt keown marvel comics presents wolverine silver surfer marvel presents charleston chew giveaway sam keith maxx limited ashcan copies exist blue cover brentb sold mr t signed advance copy exist new mutants mcfarlane cover st app cable cameo new mutants st app x force new mutants annual st liefeld art on new mutants omega men st appearance lobo omega men st full lobo story power man iron fist rd appearance sabretooth power man iron fist th appearance sabretooth simpsons comics and stories polybagged special ed spectacular spider man st app new hobgoblin spider man special unicef giveaway vs venom star trek the next generation feb dc mini star trek the next generation oct dc comics trianglehead special limited edition autographed web of spider man hobgoblin wolverine appear web of spider man origin rose hobgoblin appears wolverine before claws st battle with sabretooth wolverine sabretooth claims to be wolverine s dad wolverine sabretooth proven not to be his dad wolverine sabretooth wolverine saga concludes wolverine mini series miller art wonder woman return of animal man x force signed by liefeld bagged x force card x force signed by liefeld bagged shatterstar card x force signed by liefeld bagged deadpool card x force signed by liefeld bagged sunspot gideon all comics are in near mint to mint condition are bagged in shiny polypropylene bags and backed with white acid free boards shipping is for one book for more than one book or free if you order a large enough amount of stuff i am willing to haggle i have thousands and thousands of other comics so please let me know what you ve been looking for and maybe i can help some titles i have posted here don t list every issue i have of that title i tried to save space geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department of psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university of florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	metallica for sale addition sorry forgot to add its a jap import andy
misc.forsale	cameras for sale i have the following complete camera kits for sale minolta with three lenses ricoh with zoom lens nikon mm autofocus nikkor mint e mail for more details
misc.forsale	nikkor af for sale nikkor af for immediate sale excellent condition send e mail for details
misc.forsale	slr camera zoom for sale great slr camera ricoh for sale has all the nikon fe features and also shutter speeds form seconds and down excellent condition with accessories such as a zoom lens very reasonable price send e mail
misc.forsale	s vhs broadcast tapes forsale i have a fresh stock of s vhs broadcast master tapes in album covers forsale all unopened and still in plastic i will sell the lot for they are worth around at discount video warehouse fuji broadcast master send e mail
misc.forsale	an aircraft for sale or leasing our firm is in a position to either sell or lease the serverses of one an air cargo transport aircraft with the complete technical repair in terms of delivery the price of the aircraft is the price of leasing is per month with the guarantee flight time more than hours this price includes a the price of the aircraft b the price of insurance of the aircraft and the pilots the price of leasing does not include a the fuel price b the price of technical service c taxes airport taxes air navigations expenses the payments of hangspace d loading unloading and insurance cargo e days payments for pilot food and accomodation expenses transport expenses terms are negotiable if you are interested please contact at your earliest convenients respectedly yours andrey divaev moscow tel fax rusian tools ltd co
misc.forsale	one way omaha seattle plane ticket female one way omaha to seattle ticket in my name jessamyn west for travel must be picked up at omaha airport or thereabouts on continental airlines make me an offer reply to jwest hamp hampshire edu
misc.forsale	supra modem for scale having upgraded to a supra fax modem my supra modem is for sale at s h approx years old excellent working condition send email rosen ringer cs utsa edu or call at bruce rosen
misc.forsale	ftp pc tcp ver for sale cheap for sale ftp software inc pc tcp networking software for dos version with lan driver for c cards others you can get from ftp itself serial numbers orignal diskettes tcp ip telnet ftp ping lpr finger etc copies cheap each
misc.forsale	co porcessor cpu hi fellows i still have got bunch of dx intel cpu and dx intel coprocessors buy a set for for shipping individually dx and dx if interested respond here or call fax rtd spectrx saigon com ramesh daryani spectrox systems silicon valley ca
misc.forsale	x pcs hi fellows i have pcs x for shipping total if interested respond here or call fax rtd spectrx saigon com ramesh daryani spectrox systems silicon valley ca
misc.forsale	nikon l camera nikon l af camera lens and camera case package send e mail
misc.forsale	texas instuments ti calculator texas instruments ti calculalor excellent scientific calculator best offer
misc.forsale	cds sale please reply to the following address hani akhras jhuapl edu the following discs are for sale all discs are postage paid camouflage methods of silence ppd revenge one true passion ppd cabaret voltaire technology western re works ppd soul ii soul keep on moving cd ppd soul ii soul vol ii a new decade ppd lee perry the upsetters all the hits ppd the daou head music ppd bizzare inc energique ppd the following cassettes are for sale minimum living in a box living in a box cs michael jackson thriller cs olivia newton john physical cs steel pulse reggae greats cs please reply to the following address hani akhras jhuapl edu
misc.forsale	wanted tandem bicycle i am looking for a tandem bicycle any make any model and any condition i would prefer a complete bike but just a tandem frameset is ok too please email me if you have one for sale p s i will pay shipping from anywhere in canada or u s john y ching jching watnow waterloo edu pattern analysis and machine intelligence group department of systems design engineering university of waterloo canada
misc.forsale	re genesis more games for sale updated and expanded i am selling joe montana sportstalk football for the genesis for bucksm which will include shipping firt come first some
misc.forsale	books for sale cheap someone please buy these books i am not asking much just make me an offer and i will probably take it writing good software in fortran graham smith the holt handbook by kirszner mandell copyright page writing guide general chemistry principles modern applications r petrucci fourth edition big book very good condition solutions manual for chemistry book paperback study guide for chemistry book paperback send me your offers via email at chopin udel edu sam chopin udel edu
misc.forsale	desert storm cards for sale i have some desert storm cards for sale i have divided them up into two lots i will take the highest bid before just drop me a line with your bid lot desert storm coalition for peace topps cards s s s s nd series topps cards s lot desert storm pro set cards s sticker card sam chopin udel edu
misc.forsale	cs math physics gre books forsale most of these are c s books there are also some math and physics books for books marked as new the condition is perfect all other books are in good condition shipping buyer pays per book here is the list if you hate the prices email me an offer title author orig price asking price communication networks new walrand computer origanisation and architecture stallings nd edition ai and the design of expert systems lugar stubberfiled artificial intelligence new patrick henry winston nd edition operating system concepts silberschaltz peterson galvin a book on c kelley pohl nd edition teach youself c siegal understanding hard disk management new on the pc jonathan kamin math freshmen calculus big hard cover book discrete math with application susanna s epp a course in linear algebra new damiano little schaum s outline series linear algebra physics foundations of physics new halliday resnick rd edition also selling gre books both are brand new never used arco gre general test big red book arco computer science gre please send email if interested gewong orixa mtholyoke edu p o box germain wong gewong mhc mtholyoke edu mount holyoke college tel south hadley ma
misc.forsale	sams comics for sale cheap ok instead of holding an auction i have decided to compute prices for each comic after many suggestions these are the most reasonable prices i can give not negotiable if you would like to purchase a comic or group simply email me with the title and issue s you want the price for each issue is shown beside each comic first come first served there is no more bidding meet my price and it is yours i can be reached at this email address chopin udel edu or ravel udel edu or bach udel edu or brahms udel edu no more haggling about the price lots of comics for or look at list shipping is for comics for more than the price will be determined by the volume of the purchase i may have to use a big heavy box for large orders which costs more to mail for all those who have bought comics from me thanks all comics are near mint unless otherwise noted my books were graded by mile high comics and other comic professional collectors not me here is the list reserved means that i have made a deal with a person and i am waiting for the check to arrive reserved comics are as good as sold sorry incredible hulk vs another hulk vs captain marvel double size issue vs silver surfer vs thor vs bi coastal avengers reserved vs thing vs werewolf by night reserved copy punisher punisher war journal ghost rider ghost rider punisher armory original ghost rider rides again reprint ghost rider old series reserved vs johnny blaze reserved copies origin of gr dream each ghost rider new series st print green glow in dark cover copy nd print gold cover w glow cover web of spiderman copies each vs hulk copy left spiderhulk copy left deadly foes of spiderman copies each amazing spiderman vs dr octopus special nacme issue amazing spiderman vs dr doom copy left spiderman silver not bagged copies each w wolverine copy left enemy ace special new warriors gold cover superman man of steel superman new copies each adventures of superman annual superman annual armegedon tie in action comics avengers west coast hawkeye vs us agent batman robin returns annual armegedon tie in captain america vs hulk vs hulk armegedon foolkiller infinity gauntlet double dragon deathlok series transformers last issue wonder man flaming carrot w ninja turtles the comet legend of the shield justice society of america official movie mag from turtles ii movie sealed w jelloman comic robin copies w poster rd print copies each guardians of the galaxy copies each copies each superman vs amazing spiderman oversized issue from s reserved darkhawk copies each copies each thor vs juggernaut w ghost rider thor vs loki copies each new thor annual what if alpha flight vs fant new mutants last issue st look at x force st print copies each nd print gold cover flash new annual uncanny x men copies each copy left st print gold nd print defenders hulk vs sub mariner fantastic four copies each wolverine reserved w cable copies each silver surfer foil cover only copy left avengers origin of rage x factor green lantern copies each toxic avenger copies each sleepwalker copies each kool aid man sealed in white bag copies each x force bagged w cable card bagged w shatterstar card nfl superpro dr strange hawkworld annual nd print armegedon tie in hawk dove annual armegedon tie in justice league of america annual armegedon tie in send all comments to chopin udel edu thanks sam the ex comic book collector college of electrical engineering university of delaware
misc.forsale	sale calculator sharp brand pocket computer model pc dimensions x x inches has digit lcd display rubber keys w alphabet built in basic prog language an pin socketed interface for optional cassette drive don t have slide over reversable plastic cover sorry no owners manual a program or two still in memory asking shipping about in u s thanks pete mwieu cmuvm cmich edu
misc.forsale	blondie card board jig saw puzzle for sale for sale king feature syndicate jaymar specialty company fifth avenue new york ny cardboard puzzle no box pieces worn from use no missing pieces size inches by inches puzzle pieces puzzle depicts dagwood blondie the kids and dog daisey with her puppies on a picnic with dagwood and alexander trying to get a fishing line out of a tree plus shipping charges i can be reached by email or call judy diehl
misc.forsale	cd s games books for sale i have the following cd s for sale for each plus shipping body count without cop killer yo mtv raps volume skid row st album bryan adams waking up the neighbours temple of the dog c c music factory gonna make you sweat ibm pc games eye of the beholder with cluebook pools of darkness jet fighter books ancient egypt a social history retail will sell for encyclopedia of ancient egypt hardcover pages encyclopedia of physics hardcover pages shipping also on books and games yes i haggle e mail offers to vormooth athena mit edu
misc.forsale	lynx games for sale trade i ve got the following lynx games for sale trade make an offer batman returns pinball jam paperboy gates of zendecon brian oplinger ra crd ge com include standard disclaimer
misc.forsale	tg games for sale trade i have the following games for sale trade make an offer hu cards r type sidearms alien crush neutopia tricky kick ninja spirit somer assault cd lords of the rising sun sherlock holmes brian oplinger ra crd ge com include standard disclaimer
misc.forsale	game gear games for sale trade i have the following games for sale trade make an offer crystal warriors junction revenge of drancon psychic world castle of illusion starring micky mouse chessmaster brian oplinger ra crd ge com include standard disclaimer
misc.forsale	genesis games for sale trade i have the following games for sale trade make an offer trouble shooter where in time is carmen sandiego brian oplinger ra crd ge com include standard disclaimer
misc.forsale	lds forsale i have the following lds for sale for st each additional postage rd class paid project a ko japanese no english dominion act i japanese no english dominion act ii japanese no english far from the madding crowd lbx west side story lbx ben hur p s the dirty dozen p s star trek v p s the fabuluos fleischer folio vol tom and jerry classics bugs bunny classics brian oplinger ra crd ge com include standard disclaimer
misc.forsale	marx brother vhs forsale i have the following marx brothers tapes forsale i would like to sell them as a batch if possible all except are new carfully stored copies i bought i now own the laserdisks mgm ua a day at the races at the circus the big store mca hourse feathers the cocoanuts duck soup animal crackers brian oplinger ra crd ge com include standard disclaimer
misc.forsale	re m scsi hd for sale ops mgr georgian tigger jvnc net wrote please reply to the seller below m formatted scsi hard disk rodime ts available warning i have had bad experience with this model and i know several others who also have run into difficulties the drives will work just a limited period of time and after that the disk will report medium error dont ask me for details my disk is just stone dead david david jonsson voice fax p o box postal giro s uppsala internet e mail t djo tdb uu se sweden
misc.forsale	florida vacation package for sale hello this package is the right thing for you if you are planning a short vacation in central florida for you get four nights in first class hotels for two adults and up to three children two nights each in orlendo and daytona beach you will pay additional state tax of day required by law a great coupon book for major tourist atractions restaurants etc fully transferable it expires at can be extended for a whole year for only more you need to make reservation days in advance otherwise the availability of hotel is not ganranteed price negotiable the reason i am selling it is because i missed the deadline of using it for last chrismas if interested email ll midway uchicago edu
misc.forsale	for sale toyota supra toyota supra fully loaded automatic maroon color with leather interior alpine stereo system with cd changer alpine car alarm miles great condition one owner have to leave country in june asking o b o please call and ask for cary bernard lin departmental research assistant computing and information services columbia business school
misc.forsale	camera olymypus stylus pocket camera olympus stylus mm pocket camera smallest in its class includes time date stamp battery carrying case red eye reduction timer fully automatic rated in consumer reports obo jason yow human factors psychology program wright state university dayton oh e mail jyow desire wright edu
misc.forsale	classic s rock tapes for sale hi there again i still have a few tapes left as before they are each postage paid st class multiple orders appreciated but not necessary package deals welcome thanks chris bray lewis huey sports contains heart of rock and roll heart and soul want a new drug walking on a thin line if this is it and more hooters nervous night contains and we danced day by day all you zombies nervous night poison look what the cat dragged in their st tape contains cry tough i wont forget you talk dirty to me and more hall oates big bam boom contains out of touch possession obsession and more ratt out of the cellar contains wanted man round and round and more quiet riot condition critical contains mama weer all krazy now outfield play deep contains say it isn t so your love all the love in the world and more plant robert shaken n stirred contains little by little plus more journey raised on radio contains girl cant help it suzanne be good to yourself ill be alright without you why cant this night go on forever duran duran arena contains is there something i should know hungry like the wolf new religon wild boys planet earth and more monkees then and now the best of the monkees contains all their big hits plus some inxs kick contains mediate new sensation devil inside need you tonight never tear us apart mystify and more great tape csb engr uark edu chris bray cbray uafhp uark edu university of arkansas fayetteville i think someone should have had the decency to tell me the luncheon was free to make someone run out with potato salad in his hand pretending like he s throwing up is not what i call hospitality
misc.forsale	wanted gn r pay per view from paris i am trying to obtain a hi fi copy of guns n roses pay per view last summer from paris if anyone has a copy they would like to sell or could make me a copy please e mail me thanks
misc.forsale	mountain view house for sale three bedrooms one updated bath professionally lanscaped front yard w sprinklers utilities in attached one car garage recently painted inside convenient commute location schools whisman elementary crittenden jr high mountain view high for more information contact beverly morgan contempo realty
misc.forsale	machinist tools wanted i m looking to buy machinist tools of any kind if you have any or know of any for sale please leave me e mail and i ll get back to you promptly frank
misc.forsale	re os unleashed we have an copy of the book new not read plus s h dc if you can pickup the book has over pages and is quite heavy feng the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill the campus office for information technology or the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu or
misc.forsale	probes and plugs for oscilloscope function generator greetings i have sets of plugs for your oscilloscope or function hooks i also have sets of probes they have multipliers of x and x there is also an ref switch all these probes and plugs are in excellent conditions if interested please make me an offer i will respond to your replies by wed al
misc.forsale	re probes plugs for oscilloscope function generator greetings sorry for the typos clipper hooks al the plugs are supposed to have a black and a red mini
misc.forsale	for sale scooter for sale red honda scooter cc need m c license max speed mph gas mileage mpg max wt lbs odo reading miles it has only been out of the factory for years very low mileage original owner all paperwork available very thorough tune ups quarterly year body not a scratch garaged and covered always cover and helmets included good for student or light commuter or for fun or best offer e mail or call in evenings susan hodapp i live in north carolina raleigh and will be moving to indiana may th so i could drop it off somewhere inbetween
misc.forsale	c language and other books for sale your price list price c memory management techniques len dorfman marc j neuberger includes disk borland c handbook second edition covers version chris h pappas william h murray iii converting c to turbo c len dorfman includes disk the art of c herbert schildt includes disk using turbo c herbert schildt c the complete reference second edition herbert schildt using c version bruce eckel advanced c herbert schildt second edition high performance interactive graphics lee adams examples done in basic high performance cad graphics in c lee adams pctools the complete reference second edition versions and hy bender dvorak s inside track to dos and pc performance john dvorak nick anis advanced quick c nd edition version werner feibel wordperfect the complete reference series edition karen l acerson using ventura publisher que this book covers the first version but it might be good for newer versions too using os kris jamsa this book is for version x obviously using generic cadd levels ray c freeman iii i will pay shipping only in the usa ekarabin magnus acs ohio state edu compuserve com ekarabin csi compuserve com
misc.forsale	used cds for sale nova mob last days of pompeii ppd overwhelming colorfast overwhelming colorfast ppd teenage fanclub bandwagonesque ppd tin machine tin machine ii ppd various teriyaki asthma i v comp ppd rob rob msc cornell edu
misc.forsale	comics for sale marvel dc some indie small comic collection for sale all issues are nm unless otherwise noted prices are flexible for large purchases buyer pays shipping nm means the comic was ordered and bagged with backing upon arrival and has never been read or opened numbers in parenthesis represent the number of multiple copies graded price fantasy masterpieces silver surfer second series nm firestorm original series f f the fury of firestorm second series human fly vf human torch vf indiana jones nm kazar legion of super heroes vf machine man g a space oddessy origin of f f micronauts vf new gods f f outsiders nm ragman f rom vf vf secret origins blue beetle secret wars ii vf nm shade the changing man original series vg vg thing vf thor vf the mighty thor dbl iss graded price ambush bug stocking stuffer avengers batman the outsiders beauty the beast issues nm cloak dagger vf nm daredevil nm nm deadman haney adams deadman helfer lopez issue limited series doctor strange fantastic four vf vf vf firestar iss nm hercules iss vf date stamp iron man f vf nm dbl iss laser eraser and pressbutton eclipse marvel fanfare epic marvel universe nm nm moonshadow epic issues nightcrawler iss squadron supreme iss vf vision the scarlet witch iss nm vision the scarlet witch iss nm x men alpha flight iss graded price alien legion epic issues alpha flight nm crisis on infinite earths daredevil miller written and drawn nm elfquest warp third printing nm hulk both byrne marc spector moon knight new mutants x factor x men vf serious inquiries only alpha flight x men crossover wolverine appearance daredevil nm miller plot nm miller script starts nm miller teenage mutant ninja turtles nm second printing comic size nm first printing magazine size nm first printing comic size michelangelo nm original printing fugitoid nm original printing raphael nm original printing x factor nm x men the new teen titans marvel d c crossover w darkseid nm rob msc cornell edu
misc.forsale	sale bulk enviro t shirts i am not a company thus this is not a commercial sale i purchased t shirts last fall for a fund raiser that fell through we didn t have the time to sell the shirts i have about shirts left and i am willing to sell them to you for a piece more than a dollar discount of what you would have paid the supplier for the shirts even in bulk that s for shirts these shirts are jim morris t shirts they are all cotton and most have more than colors they are clean and neatly folded in a box if any happen to be damaged i will refund your money for each damaged shirt or replace it your option you could sell them for at least to a piece the higher number is for the nicer shirts to raise money for a school event or a organization i realize it is a big investment but it could pay off big i would be willing to sell the shirts in lots of but only at a shirt i will pay shipping but prefer local buyers and will give them more bargaining power please help me i do not have the time to sell these shirts and i need the money i am taking a big loss by selling this cheap i will give you jim morris phone number so that you can varify the prices all prices are negotiable truman please email tf andrew cmu edu and tell all of the clubs in the area about this deal once they re gone they re gone cause i am not a business
misc.forsale	mac ke hd for sale for sale mac ke with mouse and keyboard functions fine hd serial hard drive plugs into floppy port and gives a mb hd make offers sig under construction send suggestions to pledge netcom com
misc.forsale	for sale graphic equalizer for sale still audio source model eq eleven band stereo octave equalizer with specturm analyzer display digital readout left right controls over the spectrum great to boost all kinds of music signals fm broadcasts tapes cds makes even the weakest recording sound great purchased year ago asking includes original packaging manuals cables and warranty card email jburgin ralph cs haverford edu phone
misc.forsale	bps external modem i have a practical peripherals sa external modem for sale it s been used less than year and has a lifetime warranty i ve never had a problem connecting to any site something i can t say for the noname or third tier modems original box and manuals firm includes shipping anywhere in the continental us ken ken jongsma smiths industries jongsma swdev si com grand rapids michigan compuserve com
misc.forsale	marvel x comics for sale these are comics i want to sell that are x comic mutant related all prices are at least off the overstreet price all are nm m condition bagged and backed if you don t like these prices make an offer title price alpha flight wolverine appears avengers st appearance x factor daredevil wolverine appears fantastic four art adams art wolverine fantastic four wolverine ghost rider appear fantastic four wolverinr ghost rider appear havok and wolverine meltdown epic comics marvel comics presents wolverine silver surfer wolverine master of kungfu wolverine master of kungfu wolverine master of kungfu wolverine daredevil wolverine hulk wolverine submariner wolverine man thing man thing ant man man thing colossus black panther shanna black panther nomad ron lim art black panther ron lim art black panther rob liefeld art cyclops ron lim art black panther ron lim art black panther ron lim art black panther nth man havok blk panther black panther havok hulk black panther havok black panther havok black panther havok black panther havok erik larsen excalibur rob liefeld wolverine wolverine hulk jackson guice deathlok poison thor scarlet witch mark texiera ghost rider mark texiera ghost rider mark texiera ghost rider mark texiera ghost rider b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x dracula b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x st keith art and jae lee ghost rider cable wolverine ghost rider wolverine ghost rider marvel fanfare x men ka zar team up deathlok app marvel team up st karma by miller byrne x men wolverine cover story new mutants intro new warlock magus rob liefeld nd cable rob liefeld rd cable rob liefeld sabretooth appears rob liefeld sabretooth appears rob liefeld wolverine vs cable rob liefeld wolverine vs cable st app deadpool gideon domino st app x force annual evolutionary war annual st liefeld art on new mutants annual annual nd app x force summer special art adams art power pack wolverine and sabretooth appear spider man mcfarlane liefeld art x force appears thor mutant massacre x factor sabretooth app wolverine before claws st battle with sabretooth sabretooth claims to be wolverine s dad sabretooth proven not to be his dad sabretooth wolverine saga concludes wolverine mini series miller art x factor sabretooth appears sabretooth appears sabretooth appears x tinction agenda jim lee cover whilce portacio art begins whilce portacio art last old team issue annual new warriors x force appear x force signed by liefeld bagged x force card signed by liefeld bagged shatterstar card signed by liefeld bagged deadpool card signed by liefeld bagged sunspot gideon bagged cable card x men fall of the mutants inferno rob liefeld art jim lee art series begins jim lee art last jim lee art new x men team st printing all comics are in near mint to mint condition are bagged in shiny polypropylene bags and backed with white acid free boards shipping is for one book for more than one book or free if you order a large enough amount of stuff i am willing to haggle i have thousands and thousands of other comics so please let me know what you ve been looking for and maybe i can help some titles i have posted here don t list every issue i have of that title i tried to save space geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department of psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university of florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	self defense pepper spray for sale i have a few small cans of self defense spray for sale i m asking for one can it s about the size of a pen marker and works pretty good so i hear thanks noel
misc.forsale	pioneer mulit play cd player for sale pioneer pd m multi play cd player with disc magazine full function remote all the standard features including computer allocated program editing and time fade editing it is in excellent shape year old asking hans meyer
misc.forsale	pioneer double cassette deck pioneer ct w r double cassette deck auto ble tuning cd deck syncro recording music search high speed dubbing other standard features less than one year old excellent condition firm hans meyer
misc.forsale	kenwood w speakers kenwood ks h watt floor standing speakers for sale less than one year old brand new shape hans meyer
misc.forsale	pioneer audio video receiver pioneer vsx audio video receiver dolby pro logic surround ch logic studio and simulated surround playback video signal selector simulcast function two way vcr copying and monitoring acoustic memory function custom memory function sleep timer multi room remote jack av remote control unit less than one year old excellent shape firm hans meyer
misc.forsale	powerbook forsale i am posting for my brother but please reply to this account and i will forward the messages the powerbook is in excellent shape five months old and was purchased abroad i haven t seen it for details send e mail asking price best offer conditions immediate sale prepayment
misc.forsale	toyota tercel dr k good condition make me an offer hi i have a blue toyota corolla tercel for sale reason for seeling this great little car is my new celica car specifications toyota corolla tercel speed k miles door blue air conditioning heat am fm stereo well taken care off and maintained clean new battery timing belt and fan belt inspection sticker valid until a tough car generally go above k miles make me an offer e mail reddy ulysses att com phone work home kishore reddy include std disclaimer h kishore p reddy at t bell laboratories
misc.forsale	wanted airline certificate voucher i am willing to pay a reasonable amount for airline certificate voucher am looking for certificate voucher that is valid for a round trip ticket coast to coast or anywhere in us transferrable to my name please reply by e mail or phone anosh
misc.forsale	panasonic kx p pin printer panasonic kx p pin dot matrix printer cps in dot diameter character lcd super quiet mode draft letter quality super letter quality fonts rear bottom front or top paper feeding friction or tractor color compatible needs optional color kit includes windows panasonic printer drivers disk bought it in jan and have used it very little still has original ribbon cartridge this is a very nice printer and is in brand new conditio i just dont use it often enough and i need money i ll take for it hans meyer
misc.forsale	re an aircraft for sale or leasing in article aa kerhuz rtools msk su slavik rtools msk su writes our firm is in a position to either sell or lease the serverses of one an air cargo transport aircraft with the complete technical repair in terms of delivery the price of the aircraft is the price of leasing is per month with the guarantee flight time more than hours this price includes a the price of the aircraft b the price of insurance of the aircraft and the pilots the price of leasing does not include a the fuel price b the price of technical service c taxes airport taxes air navigations expenses the payments of hangspace d loading unloading and insurance cargo e days payments for pilot food and accomodation expenses transport expenses terms are negotiable if you are interested please contact at your earliest convenients respectedly yours andrey divaev moscow tel fax rusian tools ltd co calling bill gates calling bill gates jason settle down raise a family join the pta buy some sensible shoes and a chevrolet and party till you re broke and they drag you away it s ok al yankovic
misc.forsale	re dx cpu chip for sale in article mcshub dcss mcmaster ca cs sd ae maccs mcmaster ca holly ks writes in article c qoby n utdallas edu goyal utdallas edu mohit k goyal writes dx cpu chip for sale shipping if you like to pay for the chip you will get it immediately otherwise i will take the highest offer in a few days thanks please refer to he is selling for that cpu correct may be high now that amd has started selling clones you re both dreaming that guy who is selling at is ripping himself off and once those chips are gone it ll be a while before you see that price again amd or not a clone is still a clone if you want the genuine article then you pay for it just because one guy decides to sell at a ridiculously low price doesn tmean everyone else has to kevin heay bud get a life in the real world do you still play with your atari with the paddles geez man open your eyes on the technoledgy of today i have been quoted a price from a local dealer friend of mine that i could get a motherboard dx with k cache with meg base ram for here is some friendly advice go to your favorite book store walden book s and pick up a computer shoppers guide you think that was aa good price wait till you see some of the other goodies they sell james jeansonne aka the master
misc.forsale	hawaii tickets forsale hallo all my girlfriend and i will be travelling across the us this summer so we won t be using our tickets to return to hawaii please buy them the tickets are one way leaving peoria il on may it connects to the main route in minneapolis st paul and from there goes on to honolulu you ll be in honolulu at pm and flying via northwest airlines any offers will be considered but please make sure these are serious offers tickets to hawaii aren t cheap but we re aiming to make two people very happy this summer madkiwi camelot bradley edu
misc.forsale	re ftp pc tcp ver for sale cheap in article br pct rlg stanford edu br pct rlg stanford edu peter c tam writes from br pct rlg stanford edu peter c tam subject ftp pc tcp ver for sale cheap date sat apr gmt for sale ftp software inc pc tcp networking software for dos version with lan driver for c cards others you can get from ftp itself serial numbers orignal diskettes tcp ip telnet ftp ping lpr finger etc copies cheap each vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv correction i check the diskettes it only contains the pc tcp kernel no applications it is only good for people who needs to run their own lan applications that uses ftp pc tcp kernel calls but mot the extra telnet ftp etc applications
misc.forsale	forsale microbotics hardframe scsi controller forsale one microbotics hardframe scsi controller for the a make me an offer e malcolm crosby internet mcrosby bsa kent edu e mail emcamiga malcolm redpoll mrfs oh us e mail please
misc.forsale	wanted for polaroid palette manual newsgroups misc wanted misc forsale misc forsale computers subject wanted manual of polaroid palette distribution world organization clemson university clemson sc i need the polaroid palette model or similar model manual i am willing to pay for it plus the shipping charge via usps rd class i don t need the original one photo copyed manual will just fine for me if you have the manual please help me out thanks in advance eric newsgroups misc forsale misc wanted misc forsale computers subject wanted for polaroid palette manual summary distribution world organization clemson university clemson sc keywords
misc.forsale	cheap harddisks for your faithful pc xt i have a few the original ibm mb harddisks for sale they are actually seagate s st mfm full height has the ibm logo and black face plate each disk is checked and formatted with dos it can be doubled to mb or so with dblspace or stacker if you so desire have the original ibm foam fitted boxies and anti static bags i am not sure if they were ever used but each drive that is sent out will be quarenteed in good working order each plus shipping cost about if you have one of those old ibm xt or pcs this is for you it s cheaper than a floppy drive
misc.forsale	for sale monochrome monitor motherboard disk drive for sale or trade some combination for motherboard or v bis monochrome monitor pretty generic for ibm motherboard mhz built in monochrome and color support built in serial and parallel ports stick it in a robot use it to make a cheap terminal whatever internal low density disk drive baud external modem practical peripherals make me an offer or suggest a trade for whatever you have libertarian atheist semi anarchal techno rat i define myself tsa cellar org
misc.forsale	re cd s for sale if you paid for a cd you re a fool and you got ripped off
misc.forsale	wanted sega glasses i badly need a pair of sega d glasses for a cheap vr setup if you have a set and want to part with it i can arrange shipping etc and duty if necessary leave e mail to davecru ersys edmonton ab ca or call ask for dj dave cruickshank davecru ersys edmonton ab ca
misc.forsale	looking for mike damico i recently purchased an ibm monochrome vga monitor from mike damico the monitor arrived but it was missing it s power cable mike s address is apparently not a proper address because mail can t reach it if anyone knows how to contact mike and could help me find him i would appreciate it i am sure he just set aside the power cord as he was packing the monitor but it would be a lot more useful to me if i had the cord as well traci collins professor of computer education colorado mountain college tcollins bridget newcastle co us
misc.forsale	psychics look into the future discover what lies ahead in love health and finance speak live with a psychic of your choice extension you must be or over to call calls cost per minute after introduction
misc.forsale	books for sale just make offer someone please buy these books i am not asking much just make me an offer and i will probably take it writing good software in fortran graham smith the holt handbook by kirszner mandell copyright page writing guide general chemistry principles modern applications r petrucci fourth edition big book very good condition solutions manual for chemistry book paperback study guide for chemistry book paperback send me your offers via email at chopin udel edu sam chopin udel edu
misc.forsale	honda accord for sale honda accord for sale dr steel grey honda accord k miles speed manual gives around mpg brand new clutch installed last month original owner am fm cassette doesn t work a c cruise control b o runs great reason for selling recently purchased a new car call raj ext days evenings or email sunil eng sun com
misc.forsale	usrobotics courier hst for sale us robotics courier hst k modem external volume control led display power switch cps compressed file transfers higher for uncompressed files all manuals and original packaging this modem ussually costs around v error control v bis data conpression mnp class error free throughput up to bps special price for you only please inquire with any questions email jmcneill sdcc ucsd edu or call voice james mcneill
misc.forsale	time line for windows for sale time line for windows by symantec never opened still in wrap retails for asking send e mail if interested jonathan internet ac cleveland freenet edu jonathan evans commlink wariat org
misc.forsale	stereo system for sale ken
misc.forsale	looking for technics sa gx if you would like to sell your technics sa gx receiver or know someone who would like to sell it please contact me i m willing to pay any reasonable price thanx davor dmatic athena mit edu
misc.forsale	for sale altos unix machine i have an altos system v unix system for sale i actually have two but one s for me several years ago these well known machines sold for for the base configuration this particular one has much more than the base configuration depending on what you want mhz cpu meg of ram fifteen serial ports or more if you want a multidrop port for up to more serial ports ethernet floppy drive qic cartridge tape drive meg esdi hard drive either micropolis or cdc or both if you want unix system v installation networking software package tcp ip development system software package c compiler and libraries i am asking only firm for the system if you want another ethernet or serial card add additional disks are each i can install a total of three esdi drives i would consider a trade for a scsi dat tape drive this box would make a great bbs system or terminal server it was originally designed to service active users and up to moderately active users this is not a pc it was designed to be a unix box from the start and it s very fast and exceptionally reliable it s dimensions are approximately high tower wide and deep i am only interested in dealing with someone local enough to come pick it up shipping is way too much hassle call if you wish or send email steve scherf home work steve moonsoft com scherf swdc stratus com newsgroups ba market misc ba market computers misc forsale misc forsale computers misc forsale computers other subject for sale altos unix machine summary expires references distribution organization moondog software sunnyvale ca keywords i have an altos system v unix system for sale i actually have two but one s for me several years ago these well known machines sold for for the base configuration this particular one has much more than the base configuration depending on what you want mhz cpu meg of ram fifteen serial ports or more if you want a multidrop port for up to more serial ports ethernet floppy drive qic cartridge tape drive meg esdi hard drive either micropolis or cdc or both if you want unix system v installation networking software package tcp ip development system software package c compiler and libraries i am asking only firm for the system if you want another ethernet or serial card add additional disks are each i can install a total of three esdi drives i would consider a trade for a scsi dat tape drive this box would make a great bbs system or terminal server it was originally designed to service active users and up to moderately active users this is not a pc it was designed to be a unix box from the start and it s very fast and exceptionally reliable it s dimensions are approximately high tower wide and deep i am only interested in dealing with someone local enough to come pick it up shipping is way too much hassle call if you wish or send email steve scherf home work steve moonsoft com scherf swdc stratus com newsgroups ba market misc ba market computers misc forsale misc forsale computers misc forsale computers other subject for sale altos unix machine organization moondog software sunnyvale ca i have an altos system v unix system for sale i actually have two but one s for me several years ago these well known machines sold for for the base configuration this particular one has much more than the base configuration depending on what you want mhz cpu meg of ram fifteen serial ports or more if you want a multidrop port for up to more serial ports ethernet floppy drive qic cartridge tape drive meg esdi hard drive either micropolis or cdc or both if you want unix system v installation networking software package tcp ip development system software package c compiler and libraries i am asking only firm for the system if you want another ethernet or serial card add additional disks are each i can install a total of three esdi drives i would consider a trade for a scsi dat tape drive this box would make a great bbs system or terminal server it was originally designed to service active users and up to moderately active users this is not a pc it was designed to be a unix box from the start and it s very fast and exceptionally reliable it s dimensions are approximately high tower wide and deep i am only interested in dealing with someone local enough to come pick it up shipping is way too much hassle call if you wish or send email steve scherf home work steve moonsoft com scherf swdc stratus com newsgroups ba market misc ba market computers misc forsale misc forsale computers misc forsale computers other subject for sale altos unix machine summary expires references sender followup to distribution organization moondog software sunnyvale ca keywords i have an altos system v unix system for sale i actually have two but one s for me several years ago these well known machines sold for for the base configuration this particular one has much more than the base configuration depending on what you want mhz cpu meg of ram fifteen serial ports or more if you want a multidrop port for up to more serial ports ethernet floppy drive qic cartridge tape drive meg esdi hard drive either micropolis or cdc or both if you want unix system v installation networking software package tcp ip development system software package c compiler and libraries i am asking only firm for the system if you want another ethernet or serial card add additional disks are each i can install a total of three esdi drives i would consider a trade for a scsi dat tape drive this box would make a great bbs system or terminal server it was originally designed to service active users and up to moderately active users this is not a pc it was designed to be a unix box from the start and it s very fast and exceptionally reliable it s dimensions are approximately high tower wide and deep i am only interested in dealing with someone local enough to come pick it up shipping is way too much hassle call if you wish or send email steve scherf home work steve moonsoft com scherf swdc stratus com newsgroups ba market misc ba market computers misc forsale misc forsale computers misc forsale computers other subject for sale altos unix machine organization moondog software sunnyvale ca i have an altos system v unix system for sale i actually have two but one s for me several years ago these well known machines sold for for the base configuration this particular one has much more than the base configuration depending on what you want mhz cpu meg of ram fifteen serial ports or more if you want a multidrop port for up to more serial ports ethernet floppy drive qic cartridge tape drive meg esdi hard drive either micropolis or cdc or both if you want unix system v installation networking software package tcp ip development system software package c compiler and libraries i am asking only firm for the system if you want another ethernet or serial card add additional disks are each i can install a total of three esdi drives i would consider a trade for a scsi dat tape drive this box would make a great bbs system or terminal server it was originally designed to service active users and up to moderately active users this is not a pc it was designed to be a unix box from the start and it s very fast and exceptionally reliable it s dimensions are approximately high tower wide and deep i am only interested in dealing with someone local enough to come pick it up shipping is way too much hassle call if you wish or send email steve scherf home work steve moonsoft com scherf swdc stratus com newsgroups ba market misc ba market computers misc forsale misc forsale computers misc forsale computers other subject for sale altos unix machine summary expires references sender followup to distribution organization moondog software sunnyvale ca keywords i have an altos system v unix system for sale i actually have two but one s for me several years ago these well known machines sold for for the base configuration this particular one has much more than the base configuration depending on what you want mhz cpu meg of ram fifteen serial ports or more if you want a multidrop port for up to more serial ports ethernet floppy drive qic cartridge tape drive meg esdi hard drive either micropolis or cdc or both if you want unix system v installation networking software package tcp ip development system software package c compiler and libraries i am asking only firm for the system if you want another ethernet or serial card add additional disks are each i can install a total of three esdi drives i would consider a trade for a scsi dat tape drive this box would make a great bbs system or terminal server it was originally designed to service active users and up to moderately active users this is not a pc it was designed to be a unix box from the start and it s very fast and exceptionally reliable it s dimensions are approximately high tower wide and deep i am only interested in dealing with someone local enough to come pick it up shipping is way too much hassle call if you wish or send email steve scherf home work steve moonsoft com scherf swdc stratus com steve scherf ceo moondog software steve zeppelin moonsoft com
misc.forsale	wanted ph for seagate i have a seagate hard drive that i need some info specific information on anyone have the ph for seagate technology inc or if they have a bbs setup that has all the drive info on it like maxtor does i ll take that thanks apple ii forever go bucks play lacrosse raging bullwinkle shane m zatezalo cis osu i net szatezal magnus acs ohio state edu root tap colum fnet org nextmail shane kiwi swhs ohio state edu gs call t a p a futurenet bbs k ds hst megs gs
misc.forsale	re nikkor af forsale price reduced asking only
misc.forsale	unix unix unix unix unix unix unix unix forsale esix unix system v release new user license system unlimited user license system user license system with dev kit unlimited user license system with dev kit the above systems include all of the floppies or tapes and instalation manuals they are new and have never been installed before market value for the above systems is about us if you are interested please contact me at canada remote systems toronto ontario
misc.forsale	physically sound lp records sale trade or barter i still have about records left on hand all in pristine condition except where noted quite a few out of print and more than a few imports in the bunch rather than selling the majority for each i m looking to barter packages for stuff that you might be selling over usenet i ll also trade for other records in very good condition that you ve replaced with cd as well as pre recorded videos on beta or vhs in the past i ve been able to make deals based on the equivalent list store price e g cd movie in beta format to get around what you or i might have originally paid as if we can even remember at this time i m looking for a set of working aa nicad rechargable batteries if you have some lying around and they re sound rsvp so if you re curious rsvp for my list and if you see anything that you like send back a proposal for a record package and a copy of your ad for the stuff you re selling thanks gld i e the imports and out of prints are also valued at used cd i once got a baud external modem for records list anybody got a nice unused blender for making frozen margaritas ps there have been no additions since the last posting in february the list has only shrunk as i ve made a few deals since je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
misc.forsale	wanted playboy campus girls issues i m looking to buy the annual playboy magazine issue featuring girls from colleges around the us specificly i want issues from and one of these features a girl i went to high school with so i m curious to see how it turned out all help is appreciated
misc.forsale	panasonic palmcorder i would like to sell my camcorder i havent used it much and i need the money panasonic pv vhs c palmcorder high speed shutter flying erasr head power zoom digital autp tracking audio video dubbing auto tracking digital automatic focus book mark search record review automatic white balance ccd image sensor hq system includes rechargeable battery battery charger vhs playpak adapter compact video cassettes all original docs cables box etc i got it new in sept and used it a total of about times the battery has been charged less than times this thing is in brand new condition i am asking make me an offer hans meyer
misc.forsale	cd player mg floppy k floppy rc rc car d d stuff lots please read immediate sale greetings netters i have the following items for immediate sale i need the money and if you need the stuff we can work out a deal sharp single disk cd player originally paid oodles but that was a couple of years ago it works well has all the standards remote sensor remote not included track pragrammable memory etc i got a new one and need to sell this one please email me an offer it s the standard black component style cd player meg floppy drive a real ibm floppy drive with cable and mounting case i paid a couple of months ago the drive works as last time in i would like to get the back for it but obo applies k floppy drive i m sure someone out there needs an extra k it works great and is nice and quiet again please email offer rc remote control car time world leader design it was just overhauled it runs great even though the body if not all that pretty has new engine in it as well as racing pinion the chassis is nicked up from hard running but it s still a great car does not include electronics comes with monster truck conversion kit wheel arms already installed virgin truck body and bumper etc car kit obo make an offer d d stuff you name it i probably have it please send email regarding what you want or a request for sale list i hate to part with any of it but needs are needs eh misc cd s alice in chains facelift skid row self titled both obo really box of computer printer paper paid for it make offer i might have meg ns simms forsale if i get a new motherboard if you interested the price is a piece sold as a set thanks in advance please respond as soon as conveniently possible dave kari sage cc purdue edu
misc.forsale	mac modem wanted i would like to buy a cheap modem for my mac did i mention that i would prefer it to be cheap baud preferred but when you re looking for cheap and i do mean cheap beggars can t be choosers e mail me oh i m in seattle so if you were also that would be a bonus
misc.forsale	intel i dx cpu shipping forsale intel i dx cpu price must sell immediately andie wei ku lin awlin eagle wesleyan edu
misc.forsale	re repost tape drives mm mm for sale in article apr dmc com munroe dmc com dick munroe writes acorn software inc has tape drives currently used on a vms system for sale these are all scsi tape drives and are in working condition wangdat mm wangdat mm compression exabyte mm sale pending plus shipping and cod certified checks only please these units are sold as is and without warrantee contact me if you re interested dick munroe internet munroe dmc com doyle munroe consultants inc uucp uunet thehulk munroe cox st office hudson ma fax get connected send mail to info dmc com to find out about dmconnection
misc.forsale	nw chicago suburbs cheap car for sale toyota corolla d hatchback runs ok needs dents smoothed serious brake work and miscellaneous tlc excellent auto shop project obo see in algonquin or schaumburg or email johnson behind every absurdity there lies a basic truth johnson wes mot com behind every basic truth there lies an absurdity
misc.forsale	for sale hit movies on vhs i have the following prerecorded vhs tapes for sale all are in great shape and are being sold since i have replaced all of them with laserdiscs star wars the empire strikes back return of the jedi batman indiana jones and the temple of doom indiana jones and the last crusade e t if you are interested in any of these titles please mail me an offer
misc.forsale	last chance playboy magazines my roommate left me his playboy collection which he no longer wants so i m offering them to the general public that s you make an offer for the entire collection the current best offer is shipping i will accept the best offer offer does not include cheapest method of shipping from bethlehem pa february supermodel rachel williams world tour pom tanya beyer may shannon tracy tweed pom carrie jean yazel july tall girls miss bulgaria pom wendy kaye september barbi twins pom samantha dorman november la toya jackson pom tonja marie christensen december dian parkinson from the price is right pom wendy hamilton july sharon stone marilyn look alike pom jacqueline sheen october girls of the big west gladiator marisa pare pom brittany york november teri copley from we got it made sex in cinema pom lorraine olivia stewardess january th anniversary issue collector s edition february year in sex rio s grand pom simone eden march la toya jackson pom laurie wood august women of wall st diana lee from license to kill pom gianna amore november donna mills sex in cinema pom renee tenison august sunshine girls pom helle michaelsen october girls of the southwest conference pom shannon long november women of washington sex in cinema pom pia reyes december playmate review sex stars of lysette anthony pom kata karkkainen november jessica hahn sex in cinema pom pam stein also special edition playboy presents beautiful women bsme mba looking for a job hiring e mail jwg lehigh edu take a walk on the wild side biffman lehigh university o bethlehem pa usa o j o h n g e w a r t o w s k i
misc.forsale	forsale wedding dress size for a size wedding dress with lots of beads inquire at mst utah oo paid asking o
misc.forsale	wanted k ns sips wanted k ns sips if you have any please tell me how much you want includding shipping
misc.forsale	intel chmos design kit i have this kit which includes the following c a c a chmos clock generator and driver for c processors c c k kx chmos uv erasable prom c l low power k x chmos dynamic ram c a chmos programmable interrupt controller c chmos bus controller fro c c processors c c bit chmos microprocessor c a chmos programmable peripheral interface c chmos programmable interval timer c chmos dynamic ram controller all these are chips with complete manual in a box i don t know whether they still work or not and i don t really know what they are so this is mainly for those who knows what this is and have use of it probably ee stuff since this used to belong to a ee student anyone interested please make me an offer jonina
misc.forsale	looking for diffraction grating glasses in quantity yeah that about sums it up looking for a place that sells diffraction grating goggles in quantity thanks
misc.forsale	hp plotters for sale new plotters of em straight out of the box but docs have all been lost make offer cod shipping jj uk mik uky edu
misc.forsale	mb western digital hard drive for sale wester digital caviar internal hard drive mb half height ide years old great shape or closest offer mike davi saturn rowan edu
misc.forsale	wanted portable color tv it seems i m in the fortunate position to desire what many people want to sell a miniature color tv i require color and input for cable or vcr i would prefer a inch diagonal and a tube television not lcd get paid the first make an offer by email marc
misc.forsale	for sale complete system i have the following system for sale dx mhz dtk motherboard intel microprocessor k external cache megs ram meg harddrive ide controller meg floppy drive meg floppy drive serial ports parallel port samsung vga monitor svga graphics card tseng labs w meg awesome card key keyboard baud internal modem software ms dos procomm plus ver norton utilities ver other various utilities i m upgrading and need to sell the system is reliable and ready to go i ve never had any problems with it i m asking o b o if you re interested please respond by either e mail or phone tae zeus tamu edu or thanks andrew
misc.forsale	sony camcorder for sony ccd v mm camcorder originally bought for now only original box all accesories ja f andrew cmu edu
misc.forsale	sun sparkstation laptop b o sun sparkstation laptop workstation for or best offer m ram expandable to m m hard drive floppy drive os open windows lcd display scsi mouse ac adaptor manuals carring case posted for a friend please contact him directly please call leonid
misc.forsale	re cd s for sale in article apr leland stanford edu ryner leland stanford edu ryan tamm writes if you paid for a cd you re a fool and you got ripped off please tell me where i can get a cd on the wergo music label for less than foolishly john davison davisonj ecn purdue edu
misc.forsale	meg seagate ide hard drive 
misc.forsale	apple ii clone for sale plus extras please take this system off my hands i no longer use it and it is taking up valuable room they system consists of a microcom pdos apple ii clone with k on board and pdos installed it comes with a load of boards including a disk drive board z boards a k board an column board a couple printer boards including the grappler ii it has height drives and a cooling fan attachement the keyboard is of the extended variety with builting keywords and a keypad all of it for brett maraldo plexus productions unit research alien technology today bmaraldo watserv uwaterloo ca uunet clyde utai watserv bmaraldo
misc.forsale	triumph spitfire convertible f o r s a l e triumph spitfire convertible k original miles burgandy color wooden dashboard no rust garage kept heater chrome bumpers not the black plastic crap brand new top asking negotiable mechanically the car is in a very good shape and it is running very very strong if you know what i mean plenty of catalogs and manuals are coming with the car if you are interested in the car please reply to this message i am not interested or willing to sell any parts the car is in a very good condition to strip it george georged astro ocis temple edu
misc.forsale	headphones akg s for sale i have a pair of akg s in nearly new condition for sale they have been used in my studio for mixdown monitoring i have the original box the s use both an electret element and a dynamic element in each ear cup with built in crossovers they have a very smooth frequency response and the electrostatic element gives clearer highs i am asking for the pair brett maraldo plexus prodcutions unit research alien technology today bmaraldo watserv uwaterloo ca uunet clyde utai watserv bmaraldo
misc.forsale	record singles for sale i m selling a bunch of my older records off they are sitting around collecting dust and i never use them i have used each of these records once maybe twice if i didn t record the song i wanted correctly the first time these records are in perfect condition please email me with the records you would want and what you think a fair price is i will probably give deals the more records you buy kinda capatalist isn t it well give me a yell at pagorm iastate edu with any comments see ya paul i have recieved a few questions as to what are i guess i should elaborate am i that old they are just maxi singles on wax if i am correct most beat mixers still use this form of record this is probably the kind of person interested in this colllect or parts of it any questions call thanks and see ya artist song soul ii soul get a life back to life back to life d mob put your hands together a rhythm from within c mon get my lovin janet jackson rhythm nation black cat milli vanilli blame it on the rain girl i m gonna miss you maxi priest close to you i know love quincy jones i ll be good to you inxs suicide blonde body wants u tonight babyface my kinda girl mc hammer turn this mutha out ring em madonna keep it together vogue lisa stansfield this is the right time all around the world affection stevie b love emotion depeche mode personal jesus dangerous policy of truth kaleid enjoy the silence mephisto england neworder world in motion snap ooops up believe the hype the power kyper tic tac toe rebel mc street tuff rob base turn it out mr lee get busy monie love grandpa s party i ll drive you crazy the time jerk out black box everybody everybody bbd do me johnny gill rub you the right way b s roam bushfire redhead kingpin do the right thing digital underground humpty dance technotronic this beat is technotronic pump up the jam tough jane child don t wanna fall in love world lullabye young mc i come off bust a move got more rhymes in a room wiggle it glenn medeiros she ain t worth it
misc.forsale	wanted summer sublet in dc wanted summer sublet in nw dc on red metro line have own bedroom but can share common areas with others apartment or room for or less move in memorial day weekend through end of august no smokers email prinaoa yalevm or rfp jhuvm
misc.forsale	complete aix ps software and manuals best offer repost a friend of mine has a complete set of aix ps software and manuals for sale new all on meg floppies including base os development tools including c compiler administration extensions x windows motif tcp ip pc simulator dos merge etc etc this software requires a ps with processor or higher ample disk space and memory it can coexist with dos and os on the same machine and selectively booted at startup if you are interested email me your offer and i will pass it along keep in mind that the manuals and software fill up a x x box so shipping is a consideration please include this message for reference s alavi ssa unity ncsu edu h w
misc.forsale	at t unix sysv software for sale best offer repost here is your chance to have a full unix system at a small cost i have a full set of unix system for the at t for sale it is version the latest as far as i know and includes all the software meg floppies and manuals for base os development tools c compilers etc dos merge simultask etc i beleive the software requires a and will not work on any other machine i also have a few at t and manuals including the system programmers guide if anyone is interested drop me a line with your offer if you are interested please include this message for reference s alavi ssa unity ncsu edu h w
misc.forsale	wanted roller blades i m looking for a pair of inline skates aka roller blades new or used for less than including shipping size strider suny buffalo psr acsu buffalo edu lord mayor the hill people v mhsk ubvms bitnet son i am able she said though you scare me watch said i beloved strider suny buffalo psr acsu buffalo edu lord mayor the hill people v mhsk ubvms bitnet son i am able she said though you scare me watch said i beloved
misc.forsale	items for sale must sell items for sale this package was bought throught a award give away company i attempted to cancel my order before i received the package but i was too late and the company refused to take the package back for refund i know the truth which i would never get my back but i wish to get my money back as close as possible here is the describtion of the package nishika d camera it takes very good picture never been opended or used it came with wide angle flesh carring case film and a instruction video it has four lens and created a d effect on a regular mm film jewelry it came with the package as additional gift bahama vacation voucher the voucher is good for two rt airfare to freeport the users get a special hotel rate of per person per night meals ground transfer hotel tax is not included las vegas reno orlando the voucher provides one rt airfare and hotel accomodation for days nights meals ground transfer hotel tax is not included the voucher is good for all locations but you can t travel to all places at once cancun mexico the voucher provides one rt airfare and hotel accomodation for days nights meals and ground transfer hotel tax is not included as usual i paid for the whole package so try not to be cold blooded when you make your offer details would be provided by request i do wish to sell the whole package at once so if you are just looking for the vacation vouchers i don t care if you sell the camera to other for a higher pric if you are interested in the camera you could treat the vacation vouchers as gift if you receive a letter in your mail box which says that you are selected to be part of the sweeptake and you have at least one out of five awards trust me you would get the exactly the same package as i did there is only one award which will be given away so don t bother even to call them back if you are really interested you could get it from me for a cheaper price and you could receive the package within a week i waited three months to get my first and final packages also they would ask for your credit card number and you have to pay for the interest to the credit card company so why spend more than you should when you could get them from me for a cheaper price if you are interested please reply to me as soon as posible i really wish to get this over with make me an offer if i am confortable with your offer i would send the package by u p s the next day morning more details could be given if you wish please contact me at koutd hirama hiram edu douglas kou hiram college e mail address koutd hirama hiram edu
misc.forsale	for sale for sale trident meg video card up to x in colors dollars or best offer e mail at dcassen mcs d cs umr edu
misc.forsale	re repost tape drives mm mm for sale acorn software inc has tape drives currently used on a vms system for sale these are all scsi tape drives and are in working condition wangdat mm wangdat mm compression sale pending exabyte mm sale pending plus shipping and cod certified checks only please these units are sold as is and without warrantee contact me if you re interested dick munroe internet munroe dmc com doyle munroe consultants inc uucp uunet thehulk munroe cox st office hudson ma fax get connected send mail to info dmc com to find out about dmconnection
misc.forsale	loaded apple e system for sale apple e system for sale apple e enhanced c cpu w k on motherboard apple extended column card expands memory to k total floppy drives apple disk s with apple controller card floppy drive apple unidisk with apple controller card apple monochrome monitor apple super serial cards baud external modem original documentation for all of the above prodos dos system software talk is cheap communications software original w docs isys forth original w docs fig forth w original docs super sunday footbal game original w docs tsushima game original w docs books systems programming apple graphics and arcade game design apple machine language for beginners all for shipping is probably more if you have any questions please e mail reasonable offers will be considered keith r frederick happiness is our moral purpose if you see dr fu manchu kill him scalawag carson u washington edu reason is our only absolute i m not a number i m a free man cis uwid on the road to cornell
misc.forsale	tandy wp word processor for sale i have a tandy wp wordprocessor for sale it has k due to a k due to a ram disk a word processing program a word spell checker a thesaurus is thin and weighs lbs it takes aa batteries alkaline or ni cad rechargable or uses an ac adapter in cluded it is a full size qwerty keyboard with an character by line lcd screen it also has a telcom program which allows transfers of files to an ibmpc with a null modem cable and shareware transfer program also included it has a pin serial port a parallel printer port and a tape recorder file save port the telcom program can also be with a modem not included to access services like compuserve this is great unit for a high school or college student to write papers and reports on it comes with the original manual you get all the above for plus shipping and cod charges send e mail inquiries to gilbert j gall internet guf psuvm psu edu penn state university a old botany bldg phone office university park pa
misc.forsale	sony watchman sony b w watchman tv sony b w inch tv it is in excellent condition it has not been used much at all thus why i am selling it it gets great reception it sells new for so i am asking it is small enough x x that you can carry it around anywhere please e mail to jbell eecom gatech edu john t bell georgia institute of technology school of electrical engineering atlanta ga e mail jbell eecom gatech edu
misc.forsale	word perfect offer word perfect v for the mac i have a brand new copy of word perfect it is the latest release it has not been used and is still in shrink wrap it is a student version so it is not upgradable to a newer version it sells for i would like to get for it please e mail to jbell eecom gatech edu john t bell georgia institute of technology school of electrical engineering atlanta ga e mail jbell eecom gatech edu
misc.forsale	wanted transformers the toys hey collection i am interested in buying any in good condition i am particularly interested in any of the older exotic models eg five transformers into one etc i am looking at paying around depending upon the model size and original cost etc i will also pay airmail postage and packing i am also happy to buy any old sci fi related toys eg robots rocketships micronauts etc there is only one catch i live in new zealand so you have to be willing to post the items there i hop that someone can help me out cheers darren
misc.forsale	house for sale in sandwich ma for sale by owners who were also the builders contemporary cape house located in sandwich ma three bedrooms two baths one car oversized garage large eat in kitchen cathedral ceiling from to back living room deck off of kitchen and dining room sq ft sq ft living space full walk out basement creative financing a possibility contact peg moore or ron nordstrom
misc.forsale	dayna etherprint adapters i have two brand new dayna etherprint adapters baset for sale they convert ethertalk to localtalk this is useful when wanting to hook up a localtalk network printer to a ethertalk baset network they sell for each in mac warehouse will take each guaranteed email response to atg virginia edu todd gibson
misc.forsale	turbo grafx w games for sale base unit controller all cables and hookups games kieth courage legenary axe fantasy zone victory run wrestling challenge blazing lasers military madness bloody wolf asking for all the above will ship cod call mike day eve
misc.forsale	coleco unit w games for sale selling coleco base unit with controllers atari game adapter to play atari games games ms pac man smurfs etc will ship cod price make an offer call cheryl day eve
misc.forsale	re electronic components etc i said cipher tape drives what a silly boy i was now i have zillions of messages like does that include shipping is it scsi what rom version is it will it work on a maximegalon gargantuabrain ok the deal is this if you live in the twin cities email me and set up a time sure you can drop round and grab one for a tenner else min order drives shipping no guarantees they are good for any purpose at all they look newish clean no technical negotiations they are model floppytape part revision d pin floppy style connector on the back else they go in the bin life is too short for extended negotiations over items cheers mike
misc.forsale	airline ticket for sale airline ticket ata to cincinnati i have a friend who has one ticket from atlanta to cin oh it is one seat in economy class on delta the ticket is the return half of a round trip it is currently in a woman s name she does not need to fly back need to sell the ticket flyer would go standby because ticket is dated asking i am posting this for my friend please do not email responses to me instead contact rick at michael davis smith georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt b internet gt b prism gatech edu
misc.forsale	computer equipment garage sale computer equipment garage sale i ve finally decided to clean out my closets and get rid of some of the stuff that is broken or not being used by me i ve put together a list and indicated what i think each item is worth this is just my estimate and i am very open to any offers including trades i m currently looking for some cd roms that will work with a mac cd rom player cd caddies hd floppy disks any used macintosh software a mhz co processor or basically anything you have lying around cans of soup the neighbor s cat etc make me an offer no offer will be overlooked i really want to get rid of this stuff ok here s the list meg scsi hard drive conner model cp i bought this from a guy at a swap meet to use with my macintosh unfortunately i can t seem to get it to work with the scsi controller in my computer the guy tested it with his pc and printed out a copy of the norton disk doctor report which says it has no bad sectors i ll send you a copy i was dumb enough not to get his phone number so i can t return it to him the drive has many jumpers on it which i don t know how to set so maybe that s the problem i was quite disappointed that it didn t work so i m trying to minimize my losses meg scsi hard drive conner model cp same situation as above i bought both of these drives from the same guy despite the different model numbers they are the same exact drive same report from ndd i have one for each drive will be included meg sony scsi hard drive sony model srd a the drive mechanism is completely trashed this hard drive was in my computer mac se and had a stiction problem well repeated banging on the side of the computer resulted in a head crash yes metal scraping metal which was not too pleasant to listen to still the scsi controller card is in good working order and can be used for parts or a project meg seagate hh scsi hard drive model st n i originally bought this drive because it had a small stiction problem and i though that i could fix it well i determined that the drive mechanism was fine and that it was a controller problem motor controller wasn t sending proper signals well after taking the controller off the drive looking at it and putting it back together i realized that i accidentally severed one of the small flat cables that connect the drive to the controller i tried to solder it but i m not that good at soldering so i couldn t do it worked perfectly before i messed up i used it as a temporary drive when the sony above crashed on me also loaded the drive with about twenty mac applications worth well over claris cad ms word think c excel and many others i think all it needs is a resoldering of that cable you also get all the software on the drive if you can accept being a pirate i only ask that you delete my data files from the drive i was really angry when i broke that connection and then couldn t fix it i just don t have time to play with it any more at t isdn modem this is for use on digital phone systems if you know what this is or would like technical information on it let me know i have some tech documents on it is supposed to be the same thing as an at t digital phone but without the phone part it seems to be in working order passes self test perfectly ok i have no idea how this is worth let me know if you re interested motorola coprocessor i haven t tested this one out yet but if anyone is interested i will get it tested out to make sure that it works i had trouble using it with my accelerator board but then i spoke to the manufacturer of the board and found out it couldn t be used without another controller chip when i was looking around to buy one new the prices were around i will guarantee this to work cga card half length bit wasn t working last time i checked although i think i was using a bad monitor k floppy drive ibm drive type guaranteed to work because when i took it out of the pc it was working k floppy drive toshiba model number nd de a guaranteed to work came out of same pc as above floppy drives can t guarantee that these will work i don t even know if they are low or high density drives i don t have any method of testing them panasonic model number ju acg there s another number on it panasonic model number ju agg there s also another number on it h toshiba model number nd de virtually identical to the one above each drive ps drive these things are proprietary so i can t test it but i think it works not sure if it s high density or low density but i suppose someone who is looking for one would know model number dfl c a i think these things are expensive to replace mfm hard drive controller cards i ve got three of these and i have no way of testing them two of them are bit cards and one is a sixteen bit card with a floppy controller built in for the bits for the bit card w floppy interesting cable seems to convert from a vga plug to an ega plug that is standard nine pin to vga pin made by hewlett packard part no d i ve sold stuff like this before and it was a huge success with many satisfied people trading or bartering stuff they didn t need anymore i usually ship through the u s postal service haven t had any problems yet and the shipping costs will be split or negotiated well that s all folks as i said before no offer will be refused if you can convince me to give ocit to you instead of throwing it out try i hate to throw away stuff wayne wdempsey athena mit edu
misc.forsale	re vhs movie for sale in article apr cabell vcu edu his rrb cabell vcu edu robert r bower writes didn t mcdonald s sell copies of dances with wovies for not too long ago they were also selling babes in toyland the scott baio version and something even more forgettable just think video drive thru i ll take a mcrib a mcchicken and a copy of debbie does mcdallas to go do you want fries and napkins with that this makes perfect sense if you think about it cheap food and cheap movies on the cheapest format you feel full but the nutritional quality just ain t there feast a little buy beta bob his rrb caball vcu edu after this post i m really going to start studying really greg ed beta simply the best ed beta is simply the best consumer videotape format available video magazine nov page manufacturers may have a point when they perceive the u s consumer electronics market as unsophisticated videomaker march page
misc.forsale	vhs movies must sell because i am moving those vhs movies have to be sold because i am moving in weeks and i have no idea what happend to those people who made the deal with me before so here i am trying to post another message againt i don t mean to waste your valuable time basic instinct born on the forth of july backdraft presumed innocent the prince of tides dance of wolves all the prices are including shipping you get all of them for package deals are very welcome so make me an offer douglas kou hiram college koutd hirama hiram edu
misc.forsale	jeff mason s auction marvel dc valiant image etc the following comics are for auction the highest bid takes them new stuff added cyberrad marvel presents spiderman special etc title minimum current alpha flight jim lee s first work at marvel aliens st app aliens in comics st prnt may krism sold amazing spider man intro new green goblin amazing spider man st appearance hobgoblin archer and armstrong frank miller smith layton avengers st appearance x factor bloodshot chromium cover bwsmith cover poster same twice cyberrad reintro cyberrad prestige silver edition daredevil frank miller art begins dark horse presents st app concrete st printing detective azrael appears intro cypher detective azrael appears harbinger st appearance h a r d corps b matthey sold h a r d corps incredible hulk st app grey hulk since incredible hulk st mcfarlane issue incredible hulk grey hulk series begins incredible hulk st dale keown art in hulk incredible hulk st all new hulk st prnt keown marvel comics presents wolverine silver surfer marvel presents charleston chew giveaway sam keith maxx limited ashcan copies exist blue cover brentb sold mr t signed advance copy exist new mutants mcfarlane cover st app cable cameo new mutants st app x force new mutants annual st liefeld art on new mutants omega men st appearance lobo omega men st full lobo story power man iron fist rd appearance sabretooth power man iron fist th appearance sabretooth simpsons comics and stories polybagged special ed spectacular spider man st app new hobgoblin spider man special unicef giveaway vs venom star trek the next generation feb dc mini star trek the next generation oct dc comics trianglehead special limited edition autographed web of spider man hobgoblin wolverine appear web of spider man origin rose hobgoblin appears wolverine before claws st battle with sabretooth wolverine sabretooth claims to be wolverine s dad wolverine sabretooth proven not to be his dad wolverine sabretooth wolverine saga concludes wolverine mini series miller art wonder woman return of animal man x force signed by liefeld bagged x force card x force signed by liefeld bagged shatterstar card x force signed by liefeld bagged deadpool card x force signed by liefeld bagged sunspot gideon all comics are in near mint to mint condition are bagged in shiny polypropylene bags and backed with white acid free boards shipping is for one book for more than one book or free if you order a large enough amount of stuff i am willing to haggle i have thousands and thousands of other comics so please let me know what you ve been looking for and maybe i can help some titles i have posted here don t list every issue i have of that title i tried to save space geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department of psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university of florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	items forsale items for sale i will take offers for the following items i reserve the right to refuse any offers howard miller clock it chimes like a grandfather clock painting a tiger in the snow it is a beautiful painting the tiger looks like it can jump off of the canvas and get you mens diamond ring size a rows of diamonds b k gold call or email me donald walker hm wk
misc.forsale	adaptec scsi mc controller i m selling an adaptec scsi controller card i works with microchannel machines only the data transfer rate is very fast i get about meg sec with my scsi hard drive and that s with relatively slow ns ram on a card it s a scsi true bus mastering dma device and goes for around bought new i m including the new ez scsi software for speedy win performance and easy configuration i m selling it for and i ll pay the cod shipping please email me directly and either give me your phone with your offer or i ll respond with mine i hope we can both benefit from the sale of this microchannel device it s a great product
misc.forsale	pg min talaris laser printer sale talaris lazer printer pg min i have a lazer printer from talaris that suppose to printer pg min i have never set it up to use because i did not expect it to be any bigger than a lazerjet iip but i wrong it was purshase used when a company liquidated it i will sale it for shipping reply if interested obo email felicia csd csd uwm edu or phone leave message
misc.forsale	cs and misc books and ultrix manual for sale hi it s time to clean my shelf all price include shipping so you don t have to worry about it just pay the amount you see name cover publisher year origin now the ultimate dos heavy programmer s manual hard windcrest bit mapped graphics hard windcrest algorithms in c hard addison wesley file structure hard addison wesley programming with data structure pascal version soft prentice hall digital design hard wiley numerical analysis hard pws kent w disk batch files to go soft mcgraw hill advanced batch w disk file programming soft mcgraw hill computer graphics principle and heavy practice hard addison wesley structure and interpreter of computer program hard macgraw hill c an advanced introduction hard bell tele lab building c library soft windcrest x window system c lib and protocol reference soft digital press oh pascal soft w w norton differential equation hard pws kent applied discrete structure for computer science hard macmillan programming in c soft prentice hall using wordperfect soft houghton free with purchase linear algebra hard addison wesley dec station w disks ms dos binders and gw basic box digital the big gray book the next step with ultrix ultrix sql net user s guide database adminstrator s guide reference manual error message dictionary operation guide guide to diskless management services guide to server setup guide to remote installation service guide to bind hesiod service guide to the network file system guide to ethernet communication servers introduction to networking and distributed system service guide to the yellow page service guide to backup and restore guide to shutdown and startup guide to disk maintenance guide to kerberos gudie to the uucp utility guide to ibm terminal emulation for vax processors guide to configuration file maintenance guide to scamp guide to printer clients guide to adminstrator s security guide to the location broker guide to system and network setup guide to system environment setup guide to software licensing guide to system exercise guide to error logger guide to system crash recovery guide to the nawk utility security guide for the users kernal message reference manual reference page section special files file formats macro package and conventions asking for obo it s pretty heavy though please e mail if you feel interested thank you
misc.forsale	uk only wanted vectrex game system uk only title says it all i m after a vectrex system if you have one and want to get rid of it let me know i can offer cash or possible trades with megadrive and snes games cheers marc on the net no one can hear you scream email marc comp lancs ac uk marc computing lancaster ac uk
misc.forsale	wanted technics turntables simple eh rather get em used than new must guarantee
misc.forsale	furniture need nice furnishings for your apartment or house we have glass topped wood sides and chrome edging coffee and end tables for sale the coffee tables are approximately five feet in length and two feet wide the end tables are ft x ft all the glass is clear no scratches first takes all thanks for reading art art lekoff internet art icdi compu com lisa turn compu erve compuserve com bensalem pa ma bell
misc.forsale	snowboard burton air snowboard multiflex bindings triple strap on back binding board bag and leash included recently toned and waxed firm rt albnyvms bitnet
misc.forsale	meg simms for sale hello i have simms for sale they are megabyte each and are of the chip variety these are very high quality simms and are nearly brand new best of all they are nanoseconds the fastest available please make an offer i prefer to sell all four simms to the same person to lessen shipping costs but if you just want one or two please make an offer anyway thanks a lot bitzm columbia dsu edu mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s sdnet bitnet
misc.forsale	re cd s for sale in article apr en ecn purdue edu davisonj en ecn purdue edu john m davison writes in article apr leland stanford edu ryner leland stanford edu ryan tamm writes if you paid for a cd you re a fool and you got ripped off please tell me where i can get a cd on the wergo music label for less than foolishly john davison davisonj ecn purdue edu what s so special about this label that their discs are going for upwards of more than most retail outlets average prices for cds mark
misc.forsale	nintendo system w super mario shipping obo 
misc.forsale	jet ski forsale for sale kawasaki ts tandum seating color white with blue and red jet ski runs great and looks good ziemans trailer with locking utility box color black ziemans trailer is less than a year old both have been garaged kept and well maintained for both to be sold as a set only if interested call me at leave message i will return your call asap thanks tim ryan standard disclaimer applies
misc.forsale	tenor saxophone for sale selmer mark vii tenor saxophone used for college jazz band performances i will include a copy of the new real book whick is a collection of jazz classics and various other standards paid for it other extras included asking we can discuss shipping and cod charges send me some e mail or call me home or school davis jd longs lance colostate edu
misc.forsale	harsh environments was re nikonos iv etc etc in article apr leland stanford edu brett glass glass leland stanford edu writes this posting reminded me about a long standing question i ve had does it pay to consider an underwater camera for pictures taken on land but in harsh environments e g rain snow heat cold mud dust or are the lenses etc all tuned for the refractive index of water i have had a nikon l aw since unfortunately it is no longer made it is a p s sealed to resist water to a depth of feet it is not really an underwater camera but it has been great in wet and dusty conditions it takes aa batteries hooray it has the solid heavy feel of old style nikons and has taken all the abuse i have been able to give it this includes a lot of water rain river and sea desert and beach sand as well as being used as a weapon against a mugger shouting and swinging the camera by the strap didn t scare the mugger away hitting him with the flying camera did this is my never be without a camera camera the current water resistant sport touch i think is the name model is nothing like as solid or well sealed don mackie his opinions
misc.forsale	video tapes for sale adult i have the following playboy videos for sale email me if interested all are original tapes of course in original boxes video playmate calendar wet wild ii sexy lingerie ii sexy lingerie iii prices are each for for or all for i also have a bunch of magazines playboy penthouse hustler chic club and more email me if interested in those too i m willing to sell all or part of my collection cheaply justin jslauson magnus acs ohio state edu if builders built buildings like i write programs then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization
misc.forsale	mac software for sale i have the following macintosh software for sale email me if interested or for complete descriptions all prices are negotiable but first offer at asking price gets it prices include first class day shipping outside u s extra oids expert color paint robosport harpoon stratego accolade version authorized by milton bradley one on one dr j bird original version machines only macfoxes adult game strip poker blackjack adult game justin jslauson magnus acs ohio state edu if builders built buildings like i write programs then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization
misc.forsale	ski supplies we have the following ski equipment for sale cm poles white salomon boots sx size ladies to in womens size shoe two unused in soles included what s left of a ski set bought new hardly used excellent condition asking for the entire package you pay shipping and cod charges send me some e mail i will provide further discriptions upon request davis jd longs lance colostate edu
misc.forsale	new mitsumi mice for sale i have of these mice which are just taking up space in my office please buy them the price is only and it will only cost you to ship usps if you prepay here is all i know about them mice button high resolution cpi the mice are acutally quite comfortable much like the new hp ergo mouse snugs the hand scott harris sharris chopin udel edu
misc.forsale	turbo graphx games forsale revised list i have the following turbo graphx games for sale all have the cases and instructions i m asking a piece for the games and for s h you pay the for the first game only please email replies to jth bach udel edu alien crush world class baseball takin it to the hoop psychosis sidearms keith courage legendary axe legendary axe ii splatterhouse ninja spirit tiger road power golf world sports competition space harrier silent debugers cyber core final lap twin devil s crush keith courage galaga aline crush victory run blazing lazers i have the following tg cd rom games forsale i m asking each and s h for the first game y s book i ii cd final zone ii cd valis iii cd y s iii wanderers from y s cd dragon slayer cd rom r cosmic fantasy cd
misc.forsale	united nations souvenir folders cheap official united nations souvenir folders each contains all the stamps issued for that year along with descriptive information regarding each issue the stamps are mint never hinged the retail not catalog prices listed are from the leading united nations dealer mike armus the stamps were issued for use by the u n offices in new york and geneva switzerland price take the current retail price for any folder take or more folders take off the total take all folders take off the total in many cases these folders are priced at or below the face value of the stamps particularly the geneva ones year new york geneva shipping add cents per folder to cover actual first class shipping cost foreign orders i will charge the actual shipping cost airmail let me know how many folders you want thanks
misc.forsale	snes games forsale i have the following snes games forsale the ones with have instructions and the other ones have no instructions romance of the three kingdoms ii populous legend of zelda a link to the past soul blazer please reply by e mail to jth bach udel edu i ask for for s h for one game if you buy more than one i still only need thanks jay
misc.forsale	laser discs forsale i have the following laser discs forsale all are in original covers they are all in excellent condition i ve watched them so many times and i can t see myself watching them again i m asking per disc terminator road warrior hook ghost robo cop repo man romancing the stone lost boys dark man robinhoood prince of thieves total recall i ask for s h for the first laser disc if you buy more than one the will cover them all
misc.forsale	radar detector forsale i have a uniden visor clip sized radar detector with x k and ka band forsale has city highway and audio mute options and comes with cigarette lighter attachment i m asking please e mail replies to jth bach udel edu thanks jay
misc.forsale	hot shots adult cards for sale recently i got a case of hot shots cards unfortunately i had not planned on keeping all of them i sort of got stuck with the case i m not going to mention any names though so i am trying to sell off most or all minus a set for myself if you have any interest in a set a box or any singles please let me know the set has cards each card features a great looking woman in various stages of dress some nude semi nude lingerie dressed percent are gorgeous i feel there are subsets girl girl girls through promo cards through also numbered of through of emperor s all stars through stripping empress through also i am supposed to be getting some holograms soon as well oh and lastly i have a very few error cards and a few cards that were originally intended to be used as card but the company changed their mind none of these cards are easy to get anyway if you have some interest in any of these cards please drop me a line as i am most eager to sell a bunch off oh and if you are interested i also have set of hot shots left and about sets of california dreaming cards as well and lastly i have promo cards for all of the cards i have mentioned and holograms as well not a lot though john heiden al cleveland freenet edu john heiden al freenet cleveland edu
misc.forsale	sharp os s for sale i have an s i d like to sell now that i m finished with my taing i don t have nearly as many appoints to miss and i d like to put the money toward a laptop asking i bought it last christmas it s in great shape and includes as an added bonus a nice padded leather carrying case blair macintyre bm cs columbia edu cs department columbia university you drive you kill from the movie roadkill
misc.forsale	ibm hardware forsale i have the following ibm hardware forsale ati vgawonderxl this is a great card it supports x colors x k colors and x million colors i found that it also speed up windows considerably i m asking o b o for this card i also have baud modems i have docs for both but i don t have the original boxes both work fine and i d like to get each or for both please e mail all replies to jth bach udel edu thanks jay
misc.forsale	emu sampler for sale emu emax ii rackmount sampler w bit stereo sampling stereo inputs outs internal sequencer voice polyphony meg internal hd stock ram meg i think perfect condition months old obo
misc.forsale	sample cd s for sale i ve got sets of sample cd s for sale set one cd s geared towards house techno pop and rap the st cd is all drum loops and drum sounds over of them the second contains analog synths basses bass loops wavestations vox loops and much much more the second set a variety of different sounds from new age to rock etc kind of a sampler cd pardon the pun both have never been used and i can supply a list of categories for the sounds if someone is seriously interested i d like for all three as they were ish new michael mail for more info
misc.forsale	dx mhz motherboard for sale 
misc.forsale	lotus forsale i have an extra copy of lotus ver for dos i d like to get for it please reply by e mail to jth bach udel edu thanks jay
misc.forsale	re dx mhz motherboard for sale i hate it when my posts do that dx mhz mb w meg of ns ram make offer michael
misc.forsale	sale furniture keywords all items were bought in august they are undamaged and like new if you are interested in the following please send e mail to io on the main frame or car gandalf queen size box spring and mattress queen size pine headboard sofa slate blue three pillows foot seating area drawer chest drawer chest small kitchen table and four chairs thanks car
misc.forsale	syquest drive and cartridges lower price i will take for the whole package original post follows article of misc forsale newsgroups misc forsale misc forsale computers from wgs isis msstate edu walter g seefeld subject syquest internal drive with cartridges sale or trade summary will trade mb for mb ide or sell for organization mississippi state university distribution na date tue apr gmt this drive is less than one year old the cartridges have all been bought since then all is in excellent condition and still under warranty due to a change in system use i now need a large contiguous drive offer includes sydos i internal drive scsi adapter card and cables all original documentation software all original packaging cartridges totalling over mb no bad sectors or defects the installation was a breeze on my clone i will trade for something near mb ide or sell for i will also consider trading for mx pin simms at ns walter g seefeld by the dawn s early light n jackson st a by all i know is right starkville ms we re going to reap what we have sown n qxr jackson brown walter g seefeld by the dawn s early light n jackson st a by all i know is right starkville ms we re going to reap what we have sown n qxr jackson brown
misc.forsale	pc games forsale i have the following pc games forsale cyber empire vga disks prophecy of the shadow vga prince of persia vga gunship vga global conquest ega kings quest v vga kings quest iv vga ancient art of war at sea ega mech warrior vga champions of krynn ega test drive iii vga balance of power ega leisure suit larry in the land of the lounge lizards vga sentinel world i ega the bard s tale i ega skyfox ii ega bard s tale ii ega modem wars vga hillsfar ega stunt track racer ega all of the games have original boxes and all instructions manuals and copy protection devices please respond by e mail to jth bach udel edu thanks jay
misc.forsale	borland c w app frmwrks forsale howdy all i have recently converted to microsoft visual c i no longer want my borland c w application frameworks product this version is about months old i have all of the manuals disks etc it is licensed to me but i will transfer the license to the purchaser under the accepted terms of the borland license agreement i also have a copy of the books developing windows applications with borland c james mccord sams using borland c nd ed mark lee atkinson que i d like to do is sell it all to the highest bidder under the conditions listed below i ll ship c o d to anywhere in the u s via the shipper of your choice provided they are local to me and i will pay the cod charges you just pay for the shipping the list price for the product is about i have seen it advertised for as low as i will accept the best offer over plus shipping as described above which is the list price plus i m tossing in the books listed above which are a value i will hold the bidding open through the weekend and close it sometime in the evening of please reply via email only serious offers please apply no i will not consider anything for trade nor any offers less then as i consider it a fair price regards steve steve shapiro all views and opinions expressed sks computer consulting inc are my own and are offered as is steve shapiro f n z fidonet org bbs n
misc.forsale	cd s for sale i have the following cd s for sale at each for or more except where a special price is noted melissa etheridge never enough sinead o connor i do not want chicago peter cetera one more story eric clapton layla from unplugged cd single beverly craven beverly craven bobby mcferrin simple pleasures lynyrd skynyrd gold and platinum double set electric light orchestra greatest hits linda ronstadt greatest hits buster movie soundtrack pretty woman movie soundtrack candy dulfer saxuality yanni dare to dream chuck mangione feels so good bobby mcferrrin and chick corea play tangerine dream stratosfear ormandy and phil orch beethoven s ninth mehta and n y phil wagner the ring highlights mata and dallas symph ravel bolero albordado rapsodie espagnole mason williams and mannhein steamroller classical gas levi and atlanta symph hindemith symphonic metamorphosis wilhelm kempff beethoven piano sonatas all are in excellent condition email for details or songlists walter g seefeld by the dawn s early light n jackson st a by all i know is right starkville ms we re going to reap what we have sown n qxr jackson brown
misc.forsale	wanted large dog cage i need a large dog cage the kind you use to housebreak a dog when you are not around i have been adopted by a month old non housetrained huskey i am in the pittsburgh area my number is
misc.forsale	human alpha fetoprothein for sale dear sirs commercial firm of lithuania polius is interested for new partners and establishing business contacts at present we may offer to you the following we have human alpha fetoprothein in liquit or leofil dried state with purity not less than price per mg every month deliveries in quantity mg for more information please contact e mail internet viktor olesov aiva lt fax phone viktor olesov e mail internet viktor olesov aiva lt vilnius lithuania tel
misc.forsale	ti electronic organizer model ps sorry if i posted this to the wrong place wasn t sure where this should go model ps k memory storage for telephone numbers addresses memos schedule calendar calculator password protection line display full keyboard characters per line search through all data storage areas for keywords transmit to or receive entries via ibm compatible computers with optional interface kit uses aaa batteries and lithium battery for backup also has world time sound still has year service merchandise warranty left with manual sells new for asking shipping included e mail mc andrew cmu edu
misc.forsale	slc notebook deal i have forsale a slc notebook very small includes the following cyrix mhz proc fast midwest micro elite series meg hard drive w stacker inch drive serial parallel megs of ram upgradable to megs shades of grey vga built in trackball very fast machine loaded with windows stacker dos carrying case and power supply bought it just months ago for and realized i don t need this much power in a notebook i was asking now the first person with takes it io maine maine edu erik sette
misc.forsale	for sale snes star fox home alone ii snes games for sale home alone star fox will trade for a good condition copy must have box docs of one of the following snes only prince of persia gods batman returns super turrican cybernator all prices include shipping all games are in excellent condition unless otherwise stated us buyers only please all games will be shipped inside a box with packing priority usps all games include all original materials including box manual etc the first responder offering asking price is guarenteed to get the game those just asking questions get no priority until they offer to buy the game lower offers may be considered assuming no other offers at asking price are made sam bauer hewlett packard co network test division smb col hp com colorado springs co
misc.forsale	camera bags for sale new list dimensions this is a reposting cause two of the bags are out the door and i took dimensions of and important to camcorder users large padded cordura bag maker unknown orange exterior black straps and interior five outside pockets plus lid compartment lid overlaps internal dividers can be repositioned held my whole bronica system metz flash etc main chamber not incl lid and pockets is w x h x d very strong bag good for medium format users or videographers small nikon shoulder bag sorry sold shipped small nikon belt pouch khaki like similar in design to us army ammo pouch belt clips etc holds flash or small zoom fixed lens lens cleaner etc domke belt pouch black sorry sold shipped coast camera bag tan with brown strap main and front pocket can hold af slr with small zoom plus flash film etc h x h x d plus x x front pouch it looks like gore tex but i don t think it really is terms payment in advance by money order bank check or cash buyer pays shipping should go ups for the others send me an adequate self addressed mailing envelope padded recommended with enough postage please contact me by email if interested everyone s entitled to my opinion goldberg oasys dt navy mil imagination is more important than knowledge albert einstein everyone s entitled to my opinion goldberg oasys dt navy mil imagination is more important than knowledge albert einstein
misc.forsale	turbo grafx turbo cd forsale i have a turbo grafx game system with the add on cd rom system forsale i want to sell the turbo grafx turbo cd turbo pad and y s book i and ii cd for i ll split the s h charges please reply by e mail to jth bach udel edu thanks jay
misc.forsale	tapes and serial cables it s basement cleaning time this stuff has got to go i have two boxes of track tapes around tapes box they are free to anyone who wants to come by and pick them up they ve seen very little use if anyone wants these bad enough to ship they re yours for the cost of shipping the cod charge and a nusiance fee i have a lot of serial cables i have all kinds ribbon shielded long short m m m f whatever you want most appear to work well with pc serial ports but i will not gaurantee that tell me what you want and i ll do the best i can to match ea or shipping included no cods under you want to pay a cod charge for a cable go buy the cable at your local computer store instead it ll be cheaper i believe these cables were removed from service at a computer center they appear to be in good condition and the ones i have used have worked well i also have a kva exide ups with batteries that needs minor repair probably a logic board it weighs about pounds and is inches high i think they used to run a prime system off of it best offer over but you need to come pick it up use this to run your house from your solar panels i will consider reasonable offers on any of this stuff paul amaranth manager user services office also voicemail internet amaranth vela acs oakland edu this space bitnet amaranth oakland temporarily uucp uunet umich vela amaranth empty
misc.forsale	wanted old s record i m looking for an old album or cassette tape the group is sanford townsend the name of the album is smoke from a distant fire i think this album came out somewhere around and i believe was the first album produced by kenny loggins after he and jim messina broke up if you happen to have this album and are willing to part with it great if you don t want to part with it but are willing to copy it onto cassette i d love that too thanks jk kaufmanj ucs orst edu
misc.forsale	exchange your segacd for my software if anyone would like to get rid of their segacd for software please get in touch ive got loads of snes and genesis megadrive software id like to trade for a segacd or even partially i e ill also pay some let me know if you are interested cheers jonathan onathan phone x address department of computing fax lancaster university e mail jonathan comp lancs ac uk lancaster lancs u k
misc.forsale	more mm slide projectors for sale i have some more mm slide projectors for sale regardless for my first post all with new light bulb no lens no remote controller all inperfect working condition kodak carousel non af kodak carousel h autofocus singer caramate ii w built in lens casette player non af singer caramate sp w built in lens casette player non af yuesea
misc.forsale	two america west tickets for sale america west airline tickets for sale two vouchers on america west airlines which can be used toward the purchase of tickets to wherever that airline goes there are no restrictions and no blackout times they re legally transferable and can be used anytime before july asking each please respond with email or voice to cheryl mathworks com the person selling the tickets or spencer world std com the person posting this article or call cheryl at x
misc.forsale	forsale mag innovision mx f x mag innovision mx f fantastic multiscan monitor that can display up to x noninterlaced with mm dot pitch if you are looking for a large crystal clear super vga monitor then this is for you call scott at or email scotts math orst edu
misc.forsale	high end car amplifiers for sale posted for a friend please reply to him car amplifiers for sale i have high end car amplifiers for sale old style rockford fosgate s these are great amps and i ve never had a minute s trouble with either of them i ve been running them on high end for quite some time front rear and have been very pleased with them in that setup but i ve also run them on low end before and they perform quite well in that situation as well i m trying to sell them because i m considering upgrading to a rockford i already own a power and i ve always liked the way the combo worked in cars i m asking a piece and list on them when i bought them was if you re interested in both of them i d be willing to come down on the price a little bit precision power this great utility amplifier is rated at x and looks brand new the shroud is unscratched and it works great this is a great low end amp because of it s high power rating into channels however i ve also had it running front or back high end before where it did very well i m asking for this amp but feel free to make me an offer on it please direct questions replies to hacker krusty gtri gatech edu chase hacker fortune presents gifts not chase cc gatech edu according to the book dcd gt a prism gatech edu hacker krusty gtri gatech edu mike goldsman o o o o o ga tech station atlanta georgia pgp key available upon request just say no to brainwashing
misc.forsale	cd s for sale i have the following cd s that i d like to sell m o d gross misconduct metal giants at early metal compilation including aerosmith mountain blue oyster cult judus priest etc metal church blessings in disguise excellent slayer hell awaits anthrax among the living whiplash power and pain dream theater images and words pull me under exodus fabulous disaster heavy death angel the ultra violence hard to find all cd s are in excellent condition no scratches or skips after checking several similar articles it seems the going rate is hence cd s are postage paid please e mail me if you are interested as i rarely read these groups i ll ship asap after receiving cash check or money order e mail me for my snail mail address tlod ss uhura cc rochester edu rochester ny
misc.forsale	vesa i am looking for a vesa local bus card to control my ide drives floppies game port parallel port and most of all my serial ports the serial ports must have sockets for the uarts and non of this intergraded chipset that generic boards have on them message was posted at outlan ersys edmonton ab ca hst and v bis try it you ll like it
misc.forsale	put any printed book on disk yes we put any book on disk for you fast and accurate we can also put any typewritten or printed articles thesis term papers etc on disk for you interested reply for details
misc.forsale	bronica sqa more i have a bronica sqa medium format camera for sale includes lenses film back and a view finder firm contact me via e mail for info live to ride ride to live jsh suned nswses navy mil any statements made here are mine alone and not the navy s as far as they know
misc.forsale	books for sale cheap someone please buy these books i am not asking much just make me an offer and i will probably take it writing good software in fortran graham smith the holt handbook by kirszner mandell copyright page writing guide general chemistry principles modern applications r petrucci fourth edition big book very good condition solutions manual for chemistry book paperback study guide for chemistry book paperback send me your offers via email at chopin udel edu sam chopin udel edu
misc.forsale	sams auctionless comic sale ok instead of holding an auction i have decided to compute prices for each comic after many suggestions these are the most reasonable prices i can give not negotiable if you would like to purchase a comic or group simply email me with the title and issue s you want the price for each issue is shown beside each comic first come first served there is no more bidding meet my price and it is yours i can be reached at this email address chopin udel edu or ravel udel edu or bach udel edu or brahms udel edu no more haggling about the price lots of comics for or look at list shipping is for comics for more than the price will be determined by the volume of the purchase i may have to use a big heavy box for large orders which costs more to mail for all those who have bought comics from me thanks all comics are near mint unless otherwise noted my books were graded by mile high comics and other comic professional collectors not me here is the list reserved means that i have made a deal with a person and i am waiting for the check to arrive reserved comics are as good as sold sorry incredible hulk vs another hulk vs captain marvel double size issue vs silver surfer vs thor vs bi coastal avengers reserved vs thing vs werewolf by night reserved copy punisher punisher war journal ghost rider ghost rider punisher armory original ghost rider rides again reprint ghost rider old series reserved vs johnny blaze reserved copies origin of gr dream each ghost rider new series st print green glow in dark cover copy nd print gold cover w glow cover web of spiderman copies each vs hulk copy left spiderhulk copy left deadly foes of spiderman copies each amazing spiderman vs dr octopus special nacme issue amazing spiderman vs dr doom copy left spiderman silver not bagged copies each w wolverine copy left enemy ace special new warriors gold cover superman man of steel superman new copies each adventures of superman annual superman annual armegedon tie in action comics avengers west coast hawkeye vs us agent batman robin returns annual armegedon tie in captain america vs hulk vs hulk armegedon foolkiller infinity gauntlet double dragon deathlok series transformers last issue wonder man flaming carrot w ninja turtles the comet legend of the shield justice society of america official movie mag from turtles ii movie sealed w jelloman comic robin copies w poster rd print copies each guardians of the galaxy copies each copies each superman vs amazing spiderman oversized issue from s reserved darkhawk copies each copies each thor vs juggernaut w ghost rider thor vs loki copies each new thor annual what if alpha flight vs fant new mutants last issue st look at x force st print copies each nd print gold cover flash new annual uncanny x men copies each copy left st print gold nd print defenders hulk vs sub mariner fantastic four copies each wolverine reserved w cable copies each silver surfer foil cover only copy left avengers origin of rage x factor green lantern copies each toxic avenger copies each sleepwalker copies each kool aid man sealed in white bag copies each x force bagged w cable card bagged w shatterstar card nfl superpro dr strange hawkworld annual nd print armegedon tie in hawk dove annual armegedon tie in justice league of america annual armegedon tie in send all comments to chopin udel edu thanks sam the ex comic book collector college of electrical engineering university of delaware
misc.forsale	very cheap motherboard novell dx motherboard with cpu megs of memory and i o ports for shipping firm let me know if you are interested ailin
misc.forsale	re microwave convection oven forsale art cdin compu com art lekoff writes first grabs it it s a sears kenmore watt unit fyi art this unit has been sold thank you for your replies there is another oven available for those still interested my mother decided to sell her spare same price to the first taker her s is strictly microwave no convection and is in equally good condition same size as our s approximately cubic feet let me know art art lekoff internet art icdi compu com lisa turn compu erve compuserve com bensalem pa ma bell
misc.forsale	forsale fast star lv pin printer with extras as the title says i would like to sell my star lv pin printer its a narrow colum dot matrix supports both parallel and serial interfacing prints at characters per second has a k buffer and is very dependable drop some mail if your interested in it plus shipping get the printer and extra srink wraped ribbons parallel connection cable power cord manual and one sheet of paper smile roy
misc.forsale	cordless phone to all uniden cordless phone model xe perfect working condition but base station is missing its antenna the antenna mount is intact shipping included if prepaid do not reply to dino fiabane pics com your mail will bounce if it is sent to that address instead please reply only via private e mail to pics dino fiabane twwells com since my home bbs can only handle personal messages through e mail for the time being any further replies from me to you will also arrive via e mail instead of by way of a regular newsgroup dino fiabane weston drive cherry hill nj phone slmr a reply to pics dino fiabane twwells com via e mail pics online multiuser system hst v massive file collection over files online newsgroups
misc.forsale	v internal modem to all gvc technologies v bps modem bps operation with automatic speed selection ccitt v v bis v v full duplex operation asynchronous operation auto answer auto dial automatically switch between data and voice transmission supports com port and irq analog digital remote digital loopback test modes communication by crosstalk software and manual included modem manual warranty registration card included optional ccitt v bis v mnp module providing error correction and data compression to increase throughput up to bps available directly from the manufacturer mint condition do not reply to dino fiabane pics com your mail will bounce if it is sent to that address instead please reply only via private e mail to pics dino fiabane twwells com since my home bbs can only handle personal messages through e mail for the time being any further replies from me to you will also arrive via e mail instead of by way of a regular newsgroup dino fiabane weston drive cherry hill nj phone slmr a reply to pics dino fiabane twwells com via e mail pics online multiuser system hst v massive file collection over files online newsgroups
misc.forsale	wanted ibm clone dx or better a friend of mine is in the market for a system should have m of ram m hd svga monitor and card fd s w ps if you have one for sale then email me and i will forward to him thanks jonathan johnw unixhub slac stanford edu
misc.forsale	for new opened softwares games i have following softwares for sale new items never opened lucid d three dimensional spreadsheet with pull down menus on line help up to pages of notes behind every cell for dynamic detail d capability compatible with lotus etc including shipping manual disks turbo pascal express with ready to run assembly language routines that make turbo pascal faster more powerful and easier to use book and disks including shipping dr halo iii much more than an icon driven paint program it s a complete page composition and presentation graphics package automatic aspect ratio correction for wysiwyg printing true color or grey scale output and partial screen prints disks and manual including shipping key form designer plus software for making professional business forms disks and manual plus shipping obo like new items package is opened but not registered jetfighter ii advanced tactical fighter f as well as f f f a and f disks and manuals plus shipping obo nighthwak f a stealth fighter the definitive simulation of america s radar elusive jet sensational sound nine world s hot spots cuba north korea the kuwaiti t theatre of operations central europe the north cape libya the persian gul f vietnam and the middle east awesome missions to challenge you disks and manual plus shipping obo grammatik iv plus shipping quattro pro make an offer gem chart graphics word publisher v make an offer all items above are for ibm compatible systems
misc.forsale	dos or for sale cheap for sale dos with original manuals box and either or disks full version not oem including all shipping charges please respond bitzm columbia dsu edu mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s sdnet bitnet
misc.forsale	all kinds of computer items for sale for sale cga card road track s grand prix disks dos packard bell dot pitch vga color monitor k the max vga card please make offers for the above merchandise what do you have to lose go ahead make an offer thanks email bitzm columbia dsu edu mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s sdnet bitnet
misc.forsale	forsale thule silca pump blaupunkt radar i m selling an assortment of goods they re all in excellent shape the amp and detector were rarely used thule rack with locks for vw gti or jetta yrs silca floor bike pump pink uniden radar detector x and k bands orig blaupunkt w car amp orig shipping included in all prices interested please respond by email whsld login or sldenton cbnewsj cb att com or phone office thanks sandy
misc.forsale	datsun car for sale i have a datsun hatchbak forsale it s a blue datsun two doors three since it s a hatchback miles automatic very good condition i hate to sell it but phila insurance is outrageous i also don t need a car right now i am asking or bo call ron at or email perrault a chem upenn edu
misc.forsale	sega d glasses wanted does anyone have a pair of sega d glasses they re willing to part with or know of anywhere to acquire a pair as they don t have them around here thanks inspiration comes to o baden sys bison mb ca those who baden inqmind bison mb ca seek the baden de bari unknown
misc.forsale	stering silver necklace for sale i have a few italian made stering silver necklace for sale size are or i have it as low as shipping less than cents rope design necklace weight around grams for or so rope desgin necklace weight around gram for or so i only have a few left please respond asap thnx tatsuya
misc.forsale	ensoniq sq cross wave synthesizer for sale ensoniq sq cross wave synthesizer i have an sq for sale the sq is a powerful performance oriented synth with a limited on board sequencer i bought it because it has a very large timbral repertoire it seems to do meaty analog synth sounds as well as sounds that are considerably more digital below are a list of features extracted from the owner s manual o eight voice polyphonic poly timbral synthesizer capable of playing eight different sounds at once with dynamic stereo panning for each voice o voice section employing cross wave synthesis combine different attack and sustain wave segments to create complex dynamic sounds o sampled waves includes a drumset serve as the sound source o dynamic voice allocation each sequencer track midi channel has access to all eight voices o a full featured midi controller keyboard capable of sending eight midi program and volume changes at once keyboard is velocity sensitive and transmits receives velocity and polyphonic aftertouch o powerful matrix modulation scheme allows a very wide range of modulation sources and routings o a floppy disk drive which writes reads ordinary ds dd disks allows fast and reliable storage of up to sequences and up to sound patches on a single floppy disk also has a ram cart slot for patches that is compatible with esq ram carts o does sysex dumps to its floppy disk for any sysex capable midi device o character fluorescent display and user friendly page driven programming scheme provides a fairly humane user interface o stereo line outs and stereo headphone jack for private listening o sound programs and sequences are upwardly compatible with the esq so that sounds and sequences created for the esq can be played on the sq this sq has been the main midi controller in my studio for quite a while now it has performed ably in that role and has also been a heavily used sound source at the same time the sq seems to have been designed with this role in mind and it works very well with my software sequencer wincake in its multitimbral mode from a synthesis point of view this machine is a hybrid it uses looped short samples there are of them as sources then these waves are processed with a sophisticated dcf dca arrangement the sq is capable of great things because of its pole analog lowpass filter simply put it makes fabulous analog synth sounds but unlike most good analog synths it has a very thorough midi implementation so that it works very well with a midi sequencer what i really like most about this thing is that it is capable of making a very wide range of sounds this sq is about years old mfg date it does have an track sequencer but like most on board sequencers it is a pain to use so i have avoided it reason for sale i am selling my sq because i recently joined forces with another individual here in boston and we have more keyboards than space to put them i recommend it for someone who is getting started in sequencing and needs a powerful but economical master keyboard pricing and terms i paid for this synth a few years ago i am willing to accept average r m m s asking price is i will include a bunch of patches on sq floppy disks for the buyer of this synth as well as the original ensoniq sq owner s manual price asking everything shipping split shipping ups surface cod anywhere in the lower states craig vanderborgh verbex voice systems e mail craigv rad verbex com russell street phone littleton ma
misc.forsale	re cd s for sale im interseted in buing some of those i am a student at r i t please reply saying how to contact you ed
misc.forsale	exabyte exb mm g tape drive for sale please reply to the seller below for sale exabyte exb mm g tape drive writes g per m mm data grade tape uncompressed latest eeprom revs fully compatible with sun machines black faceplate seen very little use due to the fact that i have no mm tapes decided that money is more valuable than quick and convenient backups list catalog specials your price shipping extra please email responses to lee thx polarsun rna rockefeller edu
misc.forsale	x terminal x mono forsale for sale graphon x terminal monitor adjustable between landscape and portrait orientation x landscape resolution x portrait resolution diagonal screen with very small footprint rs support thin and thick ethernet connectors vt and vt emulation additional software for sun machines provided price shipping extra heavy lbs send email offers flames to lee thx polarsun rna rockefeller edu
misc.forsale	maxtor mb scsi maxtor xt s mb scsi drive ms access time years old external casing ja f andrew cmu edu
misc.forsale	cdtv acessories s monitor subject cdtv accessories s monitor because of the questionable bids being placed for the set up i am including some guideline prices in this repost negotiable of course in anticipation of the arrival of my new computer system i am selling my cdtv and accessories i am in no rush to sell this so if you don t have the money now but may be able to get it in a few weeks make a bid and let me know i am now willing to sell the pieces separately but i will wait to sell until they are all accounted for at least cdtv and keyboard kit i will sell the monitor separately cdtv months old mint condition comes with all documentation packaging receipt etc all in mint condition demo disc i will start bidding at for this cdtv keyboard package keyboard mouse drive comes with all documention packaging receipt etc months old mint turns your cdtv into a full fledged amiga computer i will start bidding at for this s monitor a couple years old very good condition comes with all documentation packaging and receipt if i can find it i will start bdding at for this software various titles games demos etc note i have no cdtv discs all software is disc based free with package deal please send your best bid to io maine or call ask for zero batzell you can leave a message if i m not in zero z batzell cdtv owner we come in peace shoot to kill iguana owner ncc u s s heart of gold university of maine video hobbyist live long and don t panic student with a star trek tng fan mostly harmless douglas n adams fan major life the universe transfer in mind orson scott card fan and everything the enterprise is not a ship for freeloading degenerate hitchhikers
misc.forsale	camera bag sale two left all are gone except and go ahead make me an offer i can t refuse large padded cordura bag sorry sold awaiting check small nikon shoulder bag sorry gone small nikon belt pouch khaki similar to an army ammo pouch belt clips etc holds flash or small zoom lens cleaner etc great for your extra lens when you don t want to tote a shoulder bag i think it can hold a small walkman and some tapes postage domke belt pouch sorry gone coast camera bag tan brown strap trim main and front pocket x x and x x respectively can hold af slr with small zoom plus flash or even an mm or compact vhs video camcorder material looks like gore tex but i don t think it is i think it can also hold your portable cd player with a bunch of discs headphones ac etc postage terms payment in advance by money order bank check or cash everyone s entitled to my opinion goldberg oasys dt navy mil imagination is more important than knowledge albert einstein everyone s entitled to my opinion goldberg oasys dt navy mil imagination is more important than knowledge albert einstein
misc.forsale	dana weick he is still out there l o o k i n g f o r d a n a w e i c k he is a crook don t deal with him please help i am looking for dana weick a month ago i made a deal with him over the net i was to sell him some memory in exchang for and a cpu i thought the deal was great so i went on with it i sent him the memory cod for he was then suppose to send me the cpu i receive his cod payment on he send me a message the he sent the cpu out it has been two weeks and i didn t receive the cpu i send him numerous message asking for confirmation that the cpu was ship or what address he send it to to make sure it didn t get lost in the mail he never reply my mail i finally resorted to calling him in arizona the first call didn t get throught i got an answering machine i left him my number he didn t reply i call again the next day and he pick up the phone i asked him if he had send out the cpu he said yes but he doesn t know what address he sent it to he said that you would check his record at home and call me back the next day to my suprise he never called i then send him some more email messages he never reply again strang when the deal was being made he reply to every of my message now that he got my memory he won t even reply to me now i am still calling him but he won t pick up the phone i am also still emailing him but he won t reply my mail so if any one know this dana weick please contact him he can be reach at dana weick w las palmaritas phoenix az in the day time this is his business number in the evenings this is his home number his email address is weick master lds az loral com this is our deal from weick master lds az loral com wed mar pin simms aren t hot sellers i pick them up on the upgrade market for quite often best i can do is the dx and ok you got a deal i ll trade you pins simms for an intel dx and i need you address for shippment i will ship it via cod and i ll pay shipping handling when the simms arrive there will be a charge on your part you can send the cpu to me via cod if possible my address by the way is the cpu under warranty great you can send the simms to me at dana weick w las palmaritas phoenix az days evenings i would prefer us mail nd day priority it only costs the cpu is brand new install it correctly meaning don t plug it in backwards or bend any pins and i ll warranty it for months thanks on i send him and said that i got the cod payment and asked if the cpu is sent out yet is the cpu sent out yet he replied on glad the cod payment got to you ok the cpu has been sent so keep your eyes out for it be very careful when you install it be careful of static discharge bending pins during insertion and above all make absolutely certain you plug the chip in the proper orientation the chip was checked out prior to shipping and if you cook it by plugging it in backwards i won t be real sympathetic if you don t know how to tell what orientation the chip should be installed don t guess dana weick update i call him sunday his wife debbie picked up the phone she said that he was busy with his kids and he would call me back in minuets half an house went by weick didn t called i called him again and his phone was discon nected since this post i have numberous people who mail me saying that this dana weick have ripped them off we got do something about this guy he has appearrently been doing this for a few years now and he is getting away with it minh pham e mail minh wpi wpi edu worcester polytechnical institute
misc.forsale	wanted chip megabyte simms ns i am in the market for megabyte simms these must be of the chip variety and also must be nanoseconds email bitzm columbia dsu edu thanks mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s sdnet bitnet
misc.forsale	snes ranma pt ranma pt professionally converted to play on snes asking or willing to trade for snes simearth or dragonball z bill opferman my thoughts not my employer s email opferman jupiter fnbc com leave them out of it fax thanks enjoy the buffet
misc.forsale	vhs movies must sell because i am moving dk subject vhs movies must sell because i am moving n dk from koutd hiramb hiram edu n dk newsgroups misc forsale rec video dk subject vhs movies must sell because i am moving dk message id apr hiramb hiram edu dk from koutd hiramb hiram edu douglas kou dk date apr dk organization hiram college dk those vhs movies have to be sold because i am moving in weeks dk and i have no idea what happend to those people who made the dk deal with me before so here i am trying to post another message dk againt i don t mean to waste your valuable time dk basic instinct dk born on the forth of july dk backdraft dk presumed innocent dk the prince of tides dk dance of wolves dk all the prices are including shipping you get all of them for dk dk package deals are very welcome dk so make me an offer dk douglas kou dk hiram college dk koutd hirama hiram edu douglas hi i d like to purchase basic instinct for all of my other notes to you have been returned i don t know why it keeps saying address unknown please let me know if this movie is still available thank you jordan mcauley in atlanta dita info gw blackwlf mese com slmr ed hopper s bbs ehbbs com berkeley lake atlanta georgia usr hst v bis home of uupcb usenet for pc board
misc.forsale	movie plan from outer space wanted i m looking for a copy of bela lugosi s last film if anyone has a copy of this stinker please e mail me also if anyone knows a better place to post this please tell me eric jaron stieglitz ejs cunixb cc columbia edu school you ate the only thing i ever loved home seymour lsoh
misc.forsale	unix books the following books are up for sale all are in good to excellent condition make offers rob phavl uucp uunet phavl rob robert ransbottom general supply metals inc voice index miscellany c c unix operating system intel processor ms dos miscellany algorithms nd ed sedgewick hardbound list programmers at work lammers list software reliability musa iannino okumoto hardbound list the users guide to small computers jerry pournelle list out of the inner circle bill landreth list elementary pascal ledgard singer list c language object oriented program design with examples in c mark mullin list c language variations in c schustack list programs and data structures in c ammeraal list turbo c programmer s library jamsa list advanced turbo c hebert schildt list understanding c bruce hunter list c database development al stevens list c programmer s library purdum leslie stegemotter list dr dobbs toolbook of c dr dobb s journal list c with excellence programing proverbs henry ledgard list c the pocket reference herbert schildt list c programming guide jack purdum some wear list c programmer s toolkit w disk jack purdum list c step by step waite prata list unix and operating system the unix system v environment s r bourne list unix papers michael waite editor list unix for ms dos programmers steven mikes list the business guide to the unix system yates emerson list unix programming on the alan deikman list unix the complete reference stephen collin list unix primer plus waite martin prata list unix for programmers an introduction daniel farkas list unix for super users foxley list unix communications henderson et al list microport system v made easy learning the unix o s o reilly sv list understanding and using coff gintaras o reilly assoc list operating system design the xinu approach p c ed d comer foosum hard list microcomputer operating systems dahmke list intel processor ms dos inside the ibm pc w disk peter norton list using turbo prolog robinson list using assembly language wyatt ibm pc orientation list compute s quick easy guide to learning lotus doug wolf list advanced programming techniques james turley list intel system software writer s guide intel corp list performance programming under ms dos michael young list programmer s problem solver for the ibm pc xt at r jourdain list rob robert ransbottom it is extremely important to maintain correct attributions anonymous
misc.forsale	wanted sim city for pc hello there i am looking for sim city for pc new used please make your offer to cchu udel edu thanks chu
misc.forsale	cd singles for sale here is a list of mostly european cd singles i have for sale all are brand new and some are still shrink wrapped please e mail if interested crowded house weather with you w remixes peter gabriel blood of eden digipak w pg booklet remix of mercy street genesis never a time w dreaming while you sleep live turn it on again live tonight tonight tonight full version live brian may too much love will kill you w too much love will kill you guitar version more r e m radio song live from green world tour r e m shiny happy people w secong song losing my religion live acoustic version r e m near wild heaven w tom s diner low endgame live r e m man on the moon w non lp tracks fruity organ new orleans instrumental arms of love r e m the sidewinder sleeps tonite w non lp tracks the lions sleeps tonight fretless r e m the sidewinder sleeps tonite w non lp tracks organ song star me kitten demo version r e m everybody hurts edit w new orleans instrumental long version mandolin strum r e m everybody hurts edit w non lp tracks chance dub dark globe sting if i ever lose my faith in you w songs from mtv unplugged all this time mad about you every breath you take sting if i ever lose my faith in you same as above but in digipak form u sunday bloody sunday w remixes of two hearts beat as one new year s day u the unforgettable fire ep w the three sunrises a sort of homecoming love comes tumbling bass trap u who s gonna ride your wild horses w paint it black salome zooromancer remix can t help falling in love triple peaks remix neil young harvest moon single edit w deep forbidden lake campaigner winterlong
misc.forsale	wanted searching for music videos i am currently searching for old video tapes of music groups of the early s to the late s at first i requested vhs formats but now i m accepting either vhs mm or beta the type of format i m interested in are the type that most nite clubs or trendy clothing stores play if you do have any of these tapes just send me a reply with a few groups listed i ll reply back if the groups listed are the type i m searching for i ll gladly pay you what they are worth or trade for other movie or music videos thanks tom you are now leaving the state of southern california please buckle up thank you for visiting the earthquake state inet tsmith cerritos edu
misc.forsale	supra fax ext stand alone modem forsale supra fax modem v bis external stand alone forsale external with digital status display fax speed up to send receive compat with class group data rate v bis v bis mnp hayes compatible at command with external cable to your serial port works with pc mac amiga
misc.forsale	tapes for sale each ppd hi there again i still have a few tapes left as before they are each postage paid or best offer multiple orders appreciated but not necessary package deals welcome thanks chris bray lewis huey sports contains heart of rock and roll heart and soul want a new drug walking on a thin line if this is it and more hooters nervous night contains and we danced day by day all you zombies nervous night poison look what the cat dragged in their st tape contains cry tough i wont forget you talk dirty to me and more hall oates big bam boom contains out of touch possession obsession and more ratt out of the cellar contains wanted man round and round and more quiet riot condition critical contains mama weer all krazy now outfield play deep contains say it isn t so your love all the love in the world and more plant robert shaken n stirred contains little by little journey raised on radio contains girl cant help it suzanne be good to yourself ill be alright without you why cant this night go on forever monkees then and now the best of the monkees contains all their big hits plus some inxs kick contains mediate new sensation devil inside need you tonight never tear us apart mystify and more great tape csb engr uark edu chris bray cbray uafhp uark edu university of arkansas fayetteville you know some white coral painted brown and attached to the skull with some common wood screws can make a child look like a deer
misc.forsale	ibm hardware fosale lowered prices i have the following ibm hardware forsale ati vgawonderxl this is a great card it supports x colors x k colors and x million colors i found that it also speed up windows considerably i m asking o b o for this card i also have internal baud modems i have docs for both but i don t have the original boxes both work fine and i d like to get each or for both backups backup power supply that allows cpu and monitor to continue to operate up to minutes in event of power failure asking please e mail all replies to jth bach udel edu thanks jay
misc.forsale	genesis sega cd software forsale sega genesis sega cd forsale recently moved in with some friends who have genesis cd player so i m selling my whole setup i d like to sell everything together the package come with sega genesis sega cd joysticks pad sewer shark cd sol feace cd sega classics cd games on cd streets of rage revenge of shinobi columns golden axe sherlock holmes cd cd g music graphics sampler john madden cart all the games have cases and instructions and everything is in great condition i would really like to get for all this stuff the sega cd alone is worth please email responses to jth bach udel edu i m dropping the price to if i can t get that much then i won t sell it thanks jay
misc.forsale	lotus ver forsale new price i have an extra copy of lotus ver for dos this package was originally i d like to get for it please reply by e mail to jth bach udel edu thanks jay
misc.forsale	for sale lifecall system for sale one complete set of lifecall equipment including the base unit portable transmitter and pendant plus days free monitering service description of item convenient and secure to anyone whose home is being broken into whose parents live alone who has children or elderly parents who suffers a heart attack or stroke who is temporarily or permanently disabled and more superior features allows you to talk to the monitering center using the transmitter help will be sent to you as soon as possible allows for personal freedom and independence deal item is worth us in open market asking for or best offer interested please email at kmgoh leland stanford edu or call at will send the certificate of delivery and relevant documents to you goh kwang meng arroyo wilbur p o box stanford ca
misc.forsale	for sale air tix to bahamas i have a certificate for round trip airfares to the bahamas expiration date is one year from now the maximum value depending on time and location is estimated at i am asking for or best offer for more information call goh at or send mail to kmgoh leland stanford edu goh kwang meng arroyo wilbur p o box stanford ca
misc.forsale	for sale air tix to orlando vegas and reno i have a certificate for one round trip airfares to either orlando las vegas and reno lake tahoe expiration date is one year from now the maximum retail value depending on time and location is estimated at for all three locations including accommodation for days and nights at a leading hotel i am asking for or best offer purchase of tickets for a single location is possible for more information call goh at or send mail to kmgoh leland stanford edu goh kwang meng arroyo wilbur p o box stanford ca
misc.forsale	for sale air tix to acapulco or cancun i have a certificate for one round trip airfares to either acapulco or cancun mexico expiration date is one year from now the maximum retail value depending on time and location is estimated at including accommodation for days and nights at a leading hotel i am asking for or best offer for more information call goh at or send mail to kmgoh leland stanford edu goh kwang meng arroyo wilbur p o box stanford ca
misc.forsale	cheap harddisks for your ibm pc xt i have a few the original ibm mb harddisks for sale they are actually seagate s st mfm full height has the ibm logo and black face plate each disk is checked and formatted with dos it can be doubled to mb or so with dblspace or stacker if you so desire have the original ibm foam fitted boxies and anti static bags i am not sure if they were ever used but each drive that is sent out will be quarenteed in good working order each plus shipping cost about if you have one of those old ibm xt or pcs this is for you it s cheaper than a floppy drive
misc.forsale	composite monochrome monitor for sale i have a few composite monochrome monitors for sale magnovax computer monitor model number bm b rca type input for video only no audio power brightness and contrast dials in front v and h hold and position controls on the back nice little monitor that can be used for pcs amigas your vcr security monitor excellent condition i am asking for plus shipping and cod not to exceed if applicable
misc.forsale	stereo lp records for sale 
misc.forsale	sony color watchman sale o sony color watchman model fdl vhf uhf pixels inch diag screen dimensions x x bright vibrant colors and very sharp unlike the casio pocket tvs ac power adapter paid asking obo
misc.forsale	wanted mhz mc floating point co proc i d say the subject line about covers it i need a mc floating point co processor for my sun system please reply via email if you ve got one of these thingies that you ld like to sell me thanks paul l moreau storage concepts inc sr diagnostics eng deere ave email paulm storcon com irvine ca uucp storcon paulm fax
misc.forsale	speakers forsale home speakers o nht now hear this inc model ii floor tower speaker system the model ii is a pair of way design with a tweeter mid range and two woofer for low bass impedance is ohms minimum ohms the cross over points are hz and khz frequency response is rated at hz to khz db rated efficiency is db power rating is between to watts per channel black finish magnetic shielded perfect for surround sound front speakers or hifi audio speakers retail at macys asking obo a year old rarely used excellent just like new condition o bose book shelf speakers black perfect condition like new paid asking firm o b o bang olufsen beovox cx satellite speakers white brand new in box paid obo o yamaha center center paid asking firm just like new o yamaha rear channel speakers for doby surround sound paid asking just like new car speakers o boston acoustic seperates car audio speakers woofers with seperate tweeters and crossovers brand new in box never been installed at good guys asking firm o mtx free air woofers new in box never been installed paid each at good guys asking firm
misc.forsale	kenwood audiophile cassette tape deck sale o kenwood audiophile cassette tape deck asking obo shipping original price i paid excellent condition well maintained rarely used model kx kenwood audiophile series kenwood highend stereo component programmable playback with memory system used to program the playback order if selection program is stored in ram random access memory system with digital display of the song being played counter memory index when this mode is selected count of the tape counter can be stored in memory this function is useful when it is necessary to stop of restart the tape at during fast forward or rewind search mode searching for a selection skipping a selection or repeating a selection can be preformed at a touch time stand by switch this is used along with an audio timer when an unattended timer recording or timer playback is performed dolby nr with mpx filter bias adjustment used to obtain optimum bias that matches the type of type to be played tape selector switch cro fecr normal metal rec mute key when recording press this key to delete undesired portions between programs such as announcements and commercials when this key is pressed the tape runs forwards for seconds to make an unrecorded section then the pause function automatically stops the tape to restart recording press pause key once flurescent peak program meters rec level controls phone jack mic jacks input selector switch specs type front loading stereo cassette deck w dolby nr system track system track channel stereo mono recording playback heads record and playback head x amorphous alloy erase head x double gap ferrite motor motors frequency response normol tape hz to hz hz to hzm db cro tape hz to hz hz to hzm db fecr tape hz to hz hz to hzm db metal tape hz to hz hz to hzm db signal to noise ratio dolby nr on db metal tape dolby nr off db metal tape harmonic distortion less that wow flutter w r m s dimensions w mm h mm
misc.forsale	sale localbus mb w cpu weitek et k video ide etc cad setup for sale g plb local bus motherboard can use up to mb of simms k m m expansion slots bit slots bit slot weitek co processor socket mhz intel cpu mhz weitek math co processor g host local bus et video card based on tseng labs et chip design supports resolutions up to x interlaced or non interlaced uses ramdac to allow up to k colors in x k colors in x register level compatible with cga ega vga mda software drivers available for symphony autocad autoshade windows wordperfect vesa and a emulation also contained on the card local bus ide controller floppy disk controller two fully configuarable serial ports parallel port game port i used this setup to run autocad and d studio the combination of local bus and the weitek co processor made for very fast cad and modeling work the weitek coprocessor can cut d studio render times in half and sometimes more it also increases redraws and regens when modeling in both d studio and autocad everything is less than a year old i am asking shipping for the whole package please respond via email thanks jason tobias jtobias photon tamu edu
misc.forsale	electronic typewriter needed wanted word processing typewriter a friend is looking for a wordproccing electronic typewriter preferably with char display and spelling correction send info to the addresses below thanks steve you know i think we should put some mountains here otherwise what are all of the characters going to fall off of laurie anderson stephen crume scrume magnus acs ohio state edu scrume magnus acs ohio state edu ohstmvsa bitnet
misc.forsale	re test in article r lu s d bigboote wpi edu coates bigwpi wpi edu jeffery david coates writes from coates bigwpi wpi edu jeffery david coates subject test date apr gmt organization worcester polytechnic institute test failed
misc.forsale	misc car audio forsale o denon dcr high power pull out cassette deck with cd changer control features w x theft prevention chassis pull out station presets fm am denon optimum reception system iv fm circuitry auto high blend and fm pulse noise cancellor dolby b nr key off head release flexible fader internal front amp to rear amp and or internal front amp to internal rear amp auto reverse cassette mechanism up down manual seek tuning music sensor stereo mono fm local switches metal tape switch din e with easy installation lock in sleeve night illumination with dash light dimmer lead preset scan cd changer control random play all of tracks on a disc automatic manual search excellent condition with manual asking shipping o yamaha ypa power amplifier car audio features selectable mode power output w x ch or w x ch all w extremely low distortion thd low rfi circuit effectively eliminates radio frequency interference which might arise from dc dc conversion full protection circuitry protects amplifier from potential damaged caused by overload short circuiting dc leakage excessive heat or mis wiring input level adjustment allows you to complement your system with any audio component gold plated rca jack ensures a durable optimum contact even under rugged road conditions remote power links the entire system s on off with the cassette receiver s ot tuner s power switch screw terminals allow simple wiring connections power fuse replacement is a simple one step operation alternater noise reduction circuitry is effectively suppressed during driving specifications continuous power output per channel ohms channels driven with thd hz khz w w with thd khz w w per channel ohms channels driven with thd hz khz w btl with thd khz w btl speaker impedance to ohms frequency response at w ohms hz to khz db signals to noise ratio db total harmonic distortion at w w khz ohms khz lpf dimensions w x h x d x x mm weight lbs oz list price this is one of the nicest cleanest amp that i have even owned i am using two of these in my car this is just an extra one that i don t really need if you are in the bay area and like to listen to it first let me know asking firm shipping brand new in box never been installed o boston acoustic seperates car audio speakers woofers with seperate tweeters and crossovers brand new in box never been installed at good guys asking firm o mtx free air woofers new in box never been installed paid each at good guys asking firm o ungo box top of the line auto alarm with twin buttons remote patented electronic motion shock sensor parking light flasher ignition kill panic mode power door lock unlocking control led flashing status light arms all doors hood and trunk etc news in box firm
misc.forsale	playboy magazines my roommate left me his playboy collection which he no longer wants so i m offering them to the general public that s you make an offer for the entire collection i will accept the best offer offer does not include cheapest method of shipping from bethlehem pa february supermodel rachel williams world tour pom tanya beyer may shannon tracy tweed pom carrie jean yazel july tall girls miss bulgaria pom wendy kaye september barbi twins pom samantha dorman november la toya jackson pom tonja marie christensen december dian parkinson from the price is right pom wendy hamilton july sharon stone marilyn look alike pom jacqueline sheen october girls of the big west gladiator marisa pare pom brittany york november teri copley from we got it made sex in cinema pom lorraine olivia stewardess january th anniversary issue collector s edition february year in sex rio s grand pom simone eden march la toya jackson pom laurie wood august women of wall st diana lee from license to kill pom gianna amore november donna mills sex in cinema pom renee tenison august sunshine girls pom helle michaelsen october girls of the southwest conference pom shannon long november women of washington sex in cinema pom pia reyes december playmate review sex stars of lysette anthony pom kata karkkainen november jessica hahn sex in cinema pom pam stein also special edition playboy presents beautiful women bsme mba looking for a job hiring e mail jwg lehigh edu take a walk on the wild side biffman lehigh university o bethlehem pa usa o j o h n g e w a r t o w s k i
misc.forsale	re not all deals are bad thomas arneberg x cf dev toma baritone wrote in article apr iscsvax uni edu harter iscsvax uni edu writes i just wanted to let you know that there are a few honest and good people out there even outside of iowa i m sorry if anyone thinks that i am wasting space but i thought you might want some relief from the so and so is a thief posts not that i think we shouldn t hear about the bad deals but it would be nice to hear some good news once in a while this was nice of kevin to post this but just so no one is misled the vast majority of usenetters are honest and good people in fact in the latest study of all net deals went off smoothly without a hitch it s just that the few bad ones are what get all the publicity agreed i have yet to run into a problem in deals over the net and i have bought things from cds plenty to a full computer the only small problem that i have had was with ups rather than the seller besides complaints are always what get the publicity when something goes wrong people complain rarely have i seen posts stating how well a deal went through i guess kevin is practically a first i d rather be swimming samuel pedroza ibm austin awsd e mail pedroza mccloud austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com speaking only for myself not ibm
misc.forsale	for sale pocket ethernet adapter xircom pocket ethernet adapter connects any pc with a parallel port to the network make offer sig under construction send suggestions to pledge netcom com
misc.forsale	stereo equipment speakers for sale keywords polk sansui akai stereo for sale polk rta speakers sansui z watt rx akai csm rm or best offer a friend asked me to post this for him if you are interested or want more information call him do not reply to me thanks call carl leave a message if he is not there
misc.forsale	mfm hd mb mb seagate st hh mb ibm fh mb they all are mfm type and in good working condition buyers pay shipping ailin
misc.forsale	cheap hard drives for your pc xt i have a few the original ibm mb harddisks for sale they are actually seagate s st mfm full height has the ibm logo and black face plate each disk is checked and formatted with dos it can be doubled to mb or so with dblspace or stacker if you so desire have the original ibm foam fitted boxies and anti static bags i am not sure if they were ever used but each drive that is sent out will be quarenteed in good working order each plus shipping cost about if you have one of those old ibm xt or pcs this is for you it s cheaper than a floppy drive
misc.forsale	xt keyboard only k the title says all not ibm brand eric
misc.forsale	deskjet and accessories forsale i have for sale the following hewlett packard deskjet additional deskjet ink cartridges ft parallel printer cable the printer is approx years old months of use and then a year in storage during my relocation from illinois to columbus and in excellent condition all original manuals and boxes are included the selling price is for the entire package unwilling to break it up because what good would cartridges do me without a printer if interested call either or you can also respond via e mail ricardo rollins e mail rollins cblph att com at t bell laboratories voice e broad st disclaimer opinions expressed are not mine columbus oh unless they re morally ethically and politically correct
misc.forsale	counterpoint sa tube power amp counterpoint sa watts per channel very very warm tube sound great for warming up cds excellent shape asking thanks tom nezwek
misc.forsale	nice telecope for sale tasco eb x x mm used once looks like new worth sell only buyers pay shipping ailin
misc.forsale	mazda glc for sale mazda glc k miles charcoal grey dr automatic transmission a c stereo system with way speaker rear window defrost cruise control new water pump front tires headlight heat shield year old battery and transmission well maintained with all records of purchase and service inspection done in feb good condition reason for selling moving out of austin negotiable must see to appreciate call or leave message on answering machine at or email to sc che utexas edu sulagna chatterjee department of chemical engineering sc che utexas edu university of texas austin tx chcu bongo cc utexas edu
misc.forsale	mac lcii for sale i have a mac lcii purchased last august just the cpu and mouse no monitor or keyboard obo peter white pw csc albany edu pwhite mac archive umich edu
misc.forsale	wanted channel multitrack recorder cassette preferred i would like to buy a channel multitrack recorder i would prefer a cassette machine such as those made by fostex tascam yamaha etc but would consider reel to reel as well write me if you know of anything thanks w craig scratchley internet scratch sce carleton ca dept of systems and computer engineering phone dept carleton university home ottawa on canada k s b fax dept w craig scratchley internet scratch sce carleton ca dept of systems and computer engineering phone dept carleton university home ottawa on canada k s b fax dept
misc.forsale	meg western digital ide hard drive for sale i am selling a western digital meg ide hd the caviar model the access time is ms and it has a built in cache it is brand new still in the original static bag asking obo
misc.forsale	split a scanner ram toaster tbc svhs vcr scope sorry for the frequency of the posting i m in a time crunch i m selling my toys so i can afford a house amiga mhz built in fpu mmu megs of ram megs of video ram expandable to gigabytes a scsi controller fujitsu m scsi drive ms years warranty year of on site service remaining obo epson es c full page dpi bit color scanner w sware and adpro loader software standalone and adpro loader docs cable supra faxmodem v bis k latest roms scsi cd rom drive ms internal mitsubishi diamondscan aum multisync khz hz analog rgb ttl video inputs all of the above obo less than original amiga toaster system amiga zeus mhz fpu and mmu built in year warranty megs of ram meg of video memory quantum prodrive m scsi drive personal tbc ii time base correctors s video and composite docs sware video toaster with lots of fonts and objects and toastervision toastervision arexx sequencing toaster croutons framestore compress instructional video scsi cd rom drive sony slvr uc svhs vcr new warranty a color rgb composite yc monitors pioneer video disc player cld rf in out composite out rock solid sync generator multi format video disc players cd obo i will parcel this stuff out if necessary please send offers meade c newtonian reflector telescope aperture f very heavy duty mount clock drive dual axis corrector with joystick and ac or dc drive fiberglassed tube for a bit more strength finder scopes x mm finder scope mm finder scope with diagonal holder and mm eyepiece barrel for eyepieces includes adapter for eyepieces mm eyepiece mm or mm eyepiece take your pick both for more manuals it needs to be collimated but is otherwise in superb condition i d really prefer to sell locally due to its size maxtor s meg formatted fh ms in sun shoebox all software listed below is for the amiga comes with boxes diskettes manuals and in many cases are unopened containing registration cards mean golf greg norman s shark attack superstar ice hockey jack nicklaus microbot d design disk pga tour golf renegade balance of power world trophy soccer waterloo omni play basketball all above software cadence treadmill used for about month manual lcd panel built in computer must sell locally due to size bought for asking this a posted for a friend please email him at mqk um cc umich edu amiga megs ram m scsi drive scsi controller a monitor obo thanks ralph please call after pm or send email best way to reach me rps arbortext com gilgalad dip eecs umich edu ralph seguin glencoe hills dr ann arbor mi
misc.forsale	for sale karmann ghia karmann ghia this car is in excellent running condition mi on new engine new tires aug new clutch new carb original radio am fm upholstery in great shape burgundy exterior black interior this car has been well maintained with regular tune ups unfortunately the car s previous owner had a minor front end collision the right front nose is dented and patched up with bondo i have the hard to find part needed to repair this damage besides that damage the car is in excellent condition bo courtney email cst blueoak berkeley edu phone after on weekdays
misc.forsale	for sale custom couch and piano location corona del mar ca orange county for sale contemporary custom couch long cushions solid black raw silk like material rolled armrests clean design excellent condition left behind parents when moved out of state or best offer for sale wurlitzer console piano w bench cherry wood great condition or best offer contact dell or louise williams or
misc.forsale	john m bell any luck catching him yet i was one of the unfortunate people to run into this guy i sent him cash stupid i know for cds that was the last i heard of him i know there were some other people ripped off by this guy has there been any advances in tracking him down tom n
misc.forsale	wanted tickets to cleveland phantom of the opera show i need tickets to the cleveland showing of phantom of the opera i will pay face value for tickets in the dollar and lower range preferably a matinee show but any in middle to late may will be bought please leave mail
misc.forsale	bps v modem to all gvc technologies v bps modem bps operation with automatic speed selection ccitt v v bis v v full duplex operation asynchronous operation auto answer auto dial automatically switch between data and voice transmission supports com port and irq analog digital remote digital loopback test modes communication by crosstalk software and manual included modem manual warranty registration card included optional ccitt v bis v mnp module providing error correction and data compression to increase throughput up to bps available directly from the manufacturer mint condition do not reply to dino fiabane pics com your mail will bounce if it is sent to that address instead please reply only via private e mail to pics dino fiabane twwells com since my home bbs can only handle personal messages through e mail for the time being any further replies from me to you will also arrive via e mail instead of by way of a regular newsgroup dino fiabane weston drive cherry hill nj phone slmr a reply to pics dino fiabane twwells com via e mail pics online multiuser system hst v massive file collection over files online newsgroups
misc.forsale	informix wingz dos os for sale for sale informix wingz graphic spreadsheet with hyperscript version runs under windows network ready distribution brand new unopened shipping not included email queries responses flames to lee lee polarsun rna rockefeller edu
misc.forsale	sun scsi host adapter for sale please reply to the seller below for sale sun scsi host adapter assembly brand new in unopened mylar sun part no pin dsub external connector compatible with sun machines available march originally purchased for eighteen months ago please email offers to lee lee polarsun rna rockefeller edu
misc.forsale	comic book sale hello my name is john and i have the following comic books for sale please feel free to make a bid if you d like add one dollar for shipping usa remember to e mail your replies to oeth iscsvax uni edu as i am not a regular on this group thank you marvel silver surfer current series copies x factor copies excalibur the first square bound the punisher copies dc comics watchmen one copy each the omega men is the first lobo appearance green arrow the longbow hunters copies all autographed by mike grell copies only one copy alternate comic companies get this teenage mutant ninja turtles not reprints auto graphed by kevin eastman and michaelangelo donatello aliens by darkhorse press copies whitman comics star trek autographed by james doohan you know scotty thank you again for your time john oeth iscsvax uni edu
misc.forsale	minolta master series c vhs c camcorder forsale for sale minolta master series c vhs c camcorder forsale multidimensional autofocus system x power zoom charge coupled device dual area autoexposure system for backlit subjects high speed digital shutter sec dual mode self timer date time insert linear tape counter power focus advanced auto white balance system mic jack dc out remote connector earphone minijack excellent condition used several times in two years original box and packing ac adapter charger vac u one standard vbp min one extra vbp min cassette adapter ad for full size vhs viewing bunch of miscellaneous extras rf adapter cords etc available immediately price us firm shipping extra please email responses to lee lee polarsun rna rockefeller edu
misc.forsale	re for sale pocket ethernet adapter in article pledgec fu mue netcom com pledge netcom com alan mclachlan writes xircom pocket ethernet adapter connects any pc with a parallel port to the network make offer note the device has never been used ie still in plastic and is baset sig under construction send suggestions to pledge netcom com
misc.forsale	gateway telepath fax modem for sale gateway fax modem send receive fax baud send receive up to baud more never been used comes with software crosstalk winfax new from gateway only sold to gateway customer will fit into your at bus asking for obo
misc.forsale	mini vacation package for sale i have a following acapulco cancun mini vacation voucher for sale voucher entitles the holder to one roundtrip airfare and three days two nights lodging for one or two adults in acapulco or cancun your choice mexico you have months to use the voucher all reservations must be made days in advance holiday and peak periods are excluded flights generally depart mid week usually on tuesdays from more than major airports additional air transportation for additional person will be made available fully refundable deposit is required it should be sent along with the voucher to casablanca express by june after that you will get the reservation request form in which you have one year to travel this package doesn t include meals hotel taxes and gratuities the voucher is offered by casablanca express balboa blvd ste encino ca approximate retail value of the voucher is cited to be the voucher is fully transferable best offer takes it greg landsberg sbhep phy sunysb edu
misc.forsale	gt bmx bike obo apple iie computer extras obo please do not reply to this account posting for a friend gt bmx bike chrome frame blue alloy parts z rims mint condition asking obo apple iie k floppy drive monitor okidata microline printer modem and disks of stuff asking obo call ariel and leave a message if i m not there again do not reply to this account posting for a friend
misc.forsale	hard drive for sale brand new gb seagate scsi hard drive ms access time full height size only s h leave e mail if interested
misc.forsale	decservers for sale i have the following items that i have no further use for and am will to accept best offers on either or both brand new decserver decserver mc if you are interested send your best offers thanks
misc.forsale	stereo lps for sale updated list 
misc.forsale	lps for sale 
misc.forsale	re don t deal with this man dana weick minh anh pham writes l o o k i n g f o r d a n a w e i c k he is ripping of people don t deal with him please help i am looking for dana weick a month ago i made a deal with him over the net i was to sell him some memory in exchang for and a cpu i thought the deal was great so i went on with it dana weick w las palmaritas phoenix az in the day time in the evenings his email address is weick master lds az loral com update no i or my friends with me now have not delt with him but we did try to call him and there s no answer at his phone the call was made at midnight est god knows what time that is in arizona we ll try again later anybody want to saturate his mail box michael c sidman mike snowhite eeap cwru edu electrical engineering and applied physics case western reserve university cleveland it s not hell cleveland ohio but a damn good simulation
misc.forsale	cordless telephone answering machine for sale i have a few just bought a new phone answering machine combo so i really don t need my present setup both items are in great condition prices do not include shipping if you have any questions contact me by e mail or call me at darryl toshiba ft cordless phone rubber antenna number memory at t answering machine remote operation message retrieval reset ogm change toll saving feature single tape operation
misc.forsale	re pool table for sale in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu kwmiller magnus acs ohio state edu kenneth w miller writes ken well tell us about your pool table andy andy belville it s taken me a long time but i ve belvilad dunx ocs drexel edu fallen in love with a beautiful woman
misc.forsale	re waterbed for sale in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu kwmiller magnus acs ohio state edu kenneth w miller writes ken again tell us about it ken andy andy belville it s taken me a long time but i ve belvilad dunx ocs drexel edu fallen in love with a beautiful woman
misc.forsale	receiver amp i have a sherwood stereo receiver which i received as a gift and would like to sell as i already own a system it is the sherwood model rx r it is brand new still factory sealed this is a high quality surround sound amp watts watts dynamic headroom power very highly rated by consumer reports march has audio inputs and pre amp and main amp connection jacks for added flexibility includes year factory warranty comes with remote asking reply subject receiver thanks pwr phys physics ucf edu
misc.forsale	re hp laserjet iii for sale in article r innsm aludra usc edu yuanchie aludra usc edu roger y hsu writes hi i have a hp laserjet iii for sale it s been printed for less than pages according the self test report i am asking for it if interested please e mail thanks you can get a new newer model for a cheaper price thru mail order i believed in reincarnation in a former life
misc.forsale	re don t deal with this man dana weick well i m not going to quote the message but anyhow mail fraud is a federal offence punnishable by time and big b i g f i n e s what you can do is contact the local authorities in arizona where this scammer resides inform them of the situation if you have proof of the transaction that would also help and they should be able to take it from there yeah this guy can get heavily penalized for this don t think that just because you have never met he cannot be prosecuted take him d o w n hope i m not being too foreward inspiration comes to o baden sys bison mb ca those who baden inqmind bison mb ca seek the baden de bari unknown
misc.forsale	re notebook computer wanted i have a powerbook that is over year old with no warranty but in perfect condition with original apple fax modem that i would consider selling you for around a get back to me with what you think would be equitable arrangements sp have all manuals and system disks some software in boxes and loaded but threw out the mac packaging ts origin hp nemesis ph jeff lombardi via swashnet node uucp scicom nemsis jeff lombardi internet jeff lombardi nemsis
misc.forsale	jeff mason s auction the following comics are for auction the highest bid takes them all are near mint to mint condition title minimum current alpha flight jim lee s first work at marvel aliens st app aliens in comics st prnt may krism sold amazing spider man intro new green goblin amazing spider man st appearance hobgoblin archer and armstrong frank miller smith layton avengers st appearance x factor bloodshot chromium cover bwsmith cover poster same sold cyberrad reintro cyberrad prestige silver edition daredevil frank miller art begins dark horse presents st app concrete st printing detective azrael appears intro cypher detective azrael appears harbinger st appearance h a r d corps b matthey sold h a r d corps incredible hulk st app grey hulk since incredible hulk st mcfarlane issue incredible hulk grey hulk series begins incredible hulk st dale keown art in hulk incredible hulk st all new hulk st prnt keown marvel comics presents wolverine silver surfer marvel presents charleston chew giveaway sam keith maxx limited ashcan copies exist blue cover mr t signed advance copy exist new mutants mcfarlane cover st app cable cameo new mutants st app x force new mutants annual st liefeld art on new mutants omega men st appearance lobo omega men st full lobo story power man iron fist rd appearance sabretooth power man iron fist th appearance sabretooth simpsons comics and stories polybagged special ed spectacular spider man st app new hobgoblin spider man special unicef giveaway vs venom star trek the next generation feb dc mini star trek the next generation oct dc comics trianglehead special limited edition autographed web of spider man hobgoblin wolverine appear web of spider man origin rose hobgoblin appears wolverine before claws st battle with sabretooth wolverine sabretooth claims to be wolverine s dad wolverine sabretooth proven not to be his dad wolverine sabretooth wolverine saga concludes wolverine mini series miller art wonder woman return of animal man x force signed by liefeld bagged x force card x force signed by liefeld bagged shatterstar card x force signed by liefeld bagged deadpool card x force signed by liefeld bagged sunspot gideon all comics are in near mint to mint condition are bagged in shiny polypropylene bags and backed with white acid free boards shipping is for one book for more than one book or free if you order a large enough amount of stuff i am willing to haggle i have thousands and thousands of other comics so please let me know what you ve been looking for and maybe i can help geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department of psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university of florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	looking for audio video computer furniture items unless otherwise noted i am mainly interested in used items if you have any of the following for sale please contact me email mbeck vtssi vt edu phone usmail michael beck progress street e blacksburg virginia please give as much info as possible brand age condition etc wanted as of am computer equip cheap tape drive pretty much any kind for ibm used memory expansion card for ps model z memory for ps model z new or used high density mb disk drive external non computer equip tv or bigger stereo vcr heads stereo receiver watts or more w dolby prologic surround sound capability bed full or queen sized local offers only please desk local offers only please due to shipping constraints
misc.forsale	zenith mhz mb hard disk zcm i have the following machine for sale zenith mhz machine mb hard disk inch mb floppy drive mb floppy drive mb of ram vga card zcm ftm flat tension mask vga color monitor flat screen non glare key keyboard serial ports parallel port original manuals that it came with in excellent condition or best reasonable offer arkady y altman aya csg rtsg mot com
misc.forsale	wanted lcd overhead mon wanted an lcd overhead monitor for my school cga looking for one in fairly good shape but the school doesn t have alot of money to spend if you have one or know of one for sale please e mail me thanks jonathan jonathan evans commlink wariat org ac cleveland freenet edu
misc.forsale	trailer for sale trailer for sale hooper auto transport trailer x flatbed ton gross weight capacity tandem axle suspension x mh nylon tires comes with a spare tire electric brakes stop lights turn signals loading ramps tilt for towing removable front steel fence removable stake sides for attaching sideboards tiedowns etc rigged for hauling automobile tractor equipment etc less than miles since new serialized with title and registration papers for sale by original owner big hook end chain and web ratchet tiedown negotiable greg hering senior software analyst phone aeronautical systems msd fax intergraph corporation internet glhering ingr com huntsville al mailstop lr a
misc.forsale	bladerunner in line skates for sale i need to sell two pairs of bladerunner in line skates we don t use them one is size and one is size they are less than a year old and were used very little generally in the corridor they are in very good condition they sell at lechmere for we still have the boxes if you want them and we d like to get obo for them please respond by e mail michele matthews
misc.forsale	electronic music software winsong for windows like new i just received a music software winsong for windows and found that it needs a midi sound card sound blaster pro is preferred to have its fantastic features show up as i don t have the plan to add a sound card now i am putting it here for sale it s listed on april issue of windows magazine and i paid as the total i am asking around with shipping included winsong for windows composer sequencer tape deck and juke box all in one it s a word processor for music you can write and edit cut paste move and copy etc notes and symbols play and print your composition it s graphical user interface works like a multi track tape recorder up to musical tracks can be arranged for play record rewind fast forward and stop it plays music on any midi compatible instrument piano guitar drum set saxophone clarinet organ and many you do not need to be a musician to use this software the on line manual is handy for musicians it s great as writing music is not a tedious and stifling aspect almost new one week old unregistered including shipping obo please be reasonable
misc.forsale	re wanted channel multitrack recorder cassette preferred scratch sce carleton ca writes i would like to buy a channel multitrack recorder i would prefer a cassette machine such as those made by fostex tascam yamaha etc but would consider reel to reel as well write me if you know of anything try used sound preston near gladstone and songbird music gladstone near bank street both have used multi tracks they are listed in the phone book also see the yellow pages under musical equipment used
misc.forsale	wanted center channel pref infinity or polk i m interested in a center channel for my home theater if yu have one and would be interested in selling one please let me know thanks prefer ably an infinity or polk audio
misc.forsale	price slashed comics of overstreet price guide updated april most comics here are priced at below the overstreet price guide all comics are in near mint to mint condition title price alpha flight wolverine appears double size jim lee s first work at marvel amazing spider man peter david script human torch r origin spiderman hobgoblin hobgoblin appears punisher hobgoblin appear kraven appears kraven appears todd mcfarlane hobgoblin vs green goblin venom appears todd mcfarlane art todd mcfarlane art silver sable paladin c america sabretooth appears red skull captain america hulk appears last mcfarlane punisher appears punisher appears hobgoblin appears intro cletus kassady carnage venom appears venom appears pages punisher appears punisher appears punisher appears punisher appears st app spider man holo c annual annual st solo venom story annual new warriors venom archer and armstrong frank miller smith layton avengers alpha flight appears pages new team alpha flight appears new team annual annual annual batman legends of the dark knight blue cover batman shadow of the bat still in polybag batman versus predator prestige edition predator prestige edition batman batman year one trade paperback st printing bloodshot chromium cover bwsmith cover poster daredevil origin bullseye ghost rider death s head early app frank miller art begins deathstalker appears frank miller art elektra nd appearance bullseye bullseye kingpin appear punnisher appears frank miller art punnisher appears frank miller art punnisher appears frank miller art wolverine appears darkhawk spider man and hobgoblin appear dark horse presents st app concrete st printing concrete appears annual aliens appear dazzler x men appear beast appears deathlok deathstroke the terminator st printing defenders intro new defenders double size x factor appears demon lobo appears lobo appears lobo appears eternal warrior miller cover fantastic four hulk vs the thing simonson art begins simonson art simonsom art simonson art simonson art art adams cover art wolverine ghost rider wolverine appear ghost rider wolverine appear pages simonson art simonson art simonson art fantastic four vs new warriors page th anniversary issue annual flash superman flash race ghost rider may origin double size glow in the dark cover st print spider man hobgoblin cover and story spider man hobgoblin cover and story ghost rider and cable sam keith cover ghost rider and captain america fear guardians of the galaxy prism foil cover harbinger st appearance h a r d corps h a r d corps havok and wolvreine meltdown incredible hulk st app grey hulk since st mcfarlane issue grey hulk series begins keown art grey vs green hulk st all new hulk st prnt keown keown c a keown c a keown c a keown c a keown c a green foil stamped cover keown infinity gauntlet perez painted cover thanos thanos thanos justice league america justice league quarterly justice society of america april kamandi origin kamandi kirby art kirby art kirby art kirby art last generation magnus robot fighter new direction logo begins marc spector moon knight ghost rider appears marvel comics presents wolverine silver surfer wolverine master of kungfu wolverine master of kungfu wolverine master of kungfu wolverine daredevil wolverine hulk wolverine submariner wolverine man thing man thing ant man man thing colossus black panther shanna black panther nomad ron lim art black panther ron lim art black panther rob liefeld art cyclops ron lim art black panther ron lim art black panther ron lim art black panther nth man havok blk panther black panther havok hulk black panther havok black panther havok black panther havok black panther havok erik larsen excalibur wolverine rob liefeld wolverine wolverine hulk jackson guice deathlok poison thor scarlet witch mark texiera ghost rider mark texiera ghost rider mark texiera ghost rider mark texiera ghost rider b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x dracula b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x st keith art and jae lee keith wolverine beast ghost rider cable wolverine ghost rider wolverine ghost rider maxx sam keith metropol ted mckeever mighty mouse moon knight nam frank castle punisher new mutants intro new warlock magus rob liefeld nd cable rob liefeld rd cable rob liefeld sabretooth appears rob liefeld sabretooth appears rob liefeld wolverine vs cable rob liefeld wolverine vs cable st app deadpool gideon domino st app x force annual evolutionary war annual st liefeld art on new mutants annual annual nd app x force summer special art adams art olympians mcfarlane omega men st appearance lobo st full lobo story annual power man iron fist rd appearance sabretooth th appearance sabretooth power pack wolverine and sabretooth appear predator big game contains trading cards punisher wilce portacio punisher and captain america blood and glory punisher p o v starlin script wrightson art starlin script wrightson art starlin script wrightson art punisher war journal jim lee art ghost rider appears ghost rider appears punisher war zone die cut cover ragman pat broderick origin ragman rocketeer special edition dave stevens art shadowman simpsons comics and stories polybagged special ed solar man of the atom spectacular spider man punisher appears answer appears cloak and dagger appear cloak and dagger appear spot appears sabretooth appears sabretooth appears sabretooth appears dr octopus appears hobgoblin appears kraven appears kraven appears punisher appears punisher appears punisher appears st app new hobgoblin origin lobo bros punisher spider man gets new powers cosmic spider man appears st ed hologram hobgoblin annual mcfarlane story spider man gold edition direct sale regular edition green unbagged lizard calypso appear mcfarlane hobgoblin ghost rider appear hobgoblin ghost rider appear black costume returns black costume morbius appear sinister six hulk appear hulk deathlok appear origin retold hologram cover star trek the next generation feb dc mini star trek the next generation oct dc comics strange adventures dozens but in varying high grades ask swamp thing john constantine appears annual tales of the teen titans deathstroke app orogin terminator dark horse terminator secondary objectives terminator judgement day thor mutant massacre x factor sabretooth app ghost rider appears ghost rider appears warlock and the infinity watch starlin scripts gamora vs thanos web of spider man thunder appears magma appears origin rose hobgoblin appears hobgoblin appears green goblin as super hero green goblin as super hero rose hobgoblin story rose hobgoblin story rose hobgoblin story rose hobgoblin story hologram cover polybagged annual werewolf by night nd appearance moon knight moon knight appears wolverine before claws st battle with sabretooth sabretooth claims to be wolverine s dad sabretooth proven not to be his dad sabretooth wolverine saga concludes wolverine mini series miller art wonder woman return of animal man annual x factor sabretooth appears sabretooth appears sabretooth appears x tinction agenda jim lee cover whilce portacio art begins whilce portacio art last old team issue annual new warriors x force appear x force signed by liefeld bagged x force card signed by liefeld bagged shatterstar card signed by liefeld bagged deadpool card signed by liefeld bagged sunspot gideon bagged cable card x o manowar all comics are in near mint to mint condition are bagged in shiny polypropylene bags and backed with white acid free boards shipping is for one book for more than one book or free if you order a large enough amount of stuff i am willing to haggle i have thousands and thousands of other comics so please let me know what you ve been looking for and maybe i can help some titles i have posted here don t list every issue i have of that title i tried to save space i am willing to trade for other comics computer equipment video equipment audio equipment etc let me know what you want to trade geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department of psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university of florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	comics jeff s strange comics dozens of new titles tuesday april update this is my latest updated list of strange bizzare odd independent comics that i have for sale as always most are cover price but some i will actually look up in the guide to see how much it is worth this week s special youngspud spoof comics oldblood bragade spoof comics spoofs of your favorite image comics both of these comics for which includes shipping a featuring tank girl adventurers aricel and adventure series the adventures of luther arkwright after apocalypse alias blastpoint alien nation angryman animal man trade paperback issues anything but monday apache dick ape nation arion the immortal atlantis chronicles avengers annual avengers west coast back to the future cartoon adaption badaxe bade biker orson batman shadow of the bat in polybag batman vs predator batman year one bats cats cadillacs beer nutz bizarre d zone blackhawk book black scorpion blackthorne publishing flip book blood sword dynasty bob s favorite comics boof caliber boris the bear boris the bear slaughters the teenage radioactive black belt big numbers blackhawk breathtaker butt biscuit cadillacs dinosaurs cage cap n quick a foozle cosmic odyssey crossroads cyberpunk dark horse presents desert storm send hussein to hell dragon chiang dungeoneers elflord vol no elftrek enchanter eclipse eye of mogambo felix the cat fire team fish police flash gordon fly french ice full throttle gajit gang gambit gatekeeper get lost ghost rider captain america fear give me liberty godzilla the greatest flash stories ever told green arrow ann greenhaven green hornet green lantern grey grimjack grimjack casefiles guardians of the galaxy hammer of god hamster vice harley rider haunt of fear hercules unbound hollywood superstars i saw it i am legend icarus icon idol illuminatus in country nam interface epic intruder tsr comics module invaders from home invaders from mars eternity jademan kung fu special jaguar jason monarch jeremiah birds of prey john byrne s next men judge dredd justice machine justy kicker s inc kid cannibal eternity kobra labor force blackthorne last american epic last generation last of the viking heroes legend of the shield legend killer legend of kamui lensman lethargic comics weakly light and darkness war living stone mountain loner lords of the ultra realms lucifer m a c h fleetway secret weapon master maxwell mouse follies maze merlin meta first metal bikini eternity metropol miami mice marke bode midnite the rebel skunk mister e mr monster s true crime ms tree renagade ms tree in d ms tree quarterly dc mummy mummy s curse aricel myth conceptions nathaniel dusk nathan impaler monster hunter night realm nemesis the warlock quality new beginning new frontier newstralia new triumph featuring northguard new york year zero night life caliber night zero fleetway ninja elite adventure nosferatu official buz sawyer official prince valiant olympians one open season open space oracle original black cat ox cow o war pandora pill panorama pathways to fantasy patrick rabbit penguin in paris personality comics presents musics comics on tour the beatles personality comics presents rolling stones pineapple army planet of the apes portia prinz of the glamazons psycho killers comic zone richard ramirez punisher and captain america blood and glory question dc red heat retief rhudiprrt the prince of fur rivit blackthorne robocop vs the terminator rock and roll comics david bowie rockin rollin miner ants fate roger rabbit s toontown runners rip off press sable first same slade robohunter samurai son of death scarlet kiss scavengers quality scorched earth scout war shaman screen monsters sensational she hulk marvel graphic novel shatterpoint eternity shuriken shuriken cold steel silverfawn sinbad adventure book the four trials sisterhood of steel skreemer dc slaine slash maraud song of the cid caliber sonic disrupters space ark spellbinders quality spider spider man special vs venom unicef giveaway spider man and power pack giveaway spoof spawn spoof st george stalkers epic stark future aricel starriors steed mrs peel straw men all american street wolf super shark humanoids survivors swords of shar pei syphons tales from the aniverse tales of ordinary madness tales of the green hornet tales of the jackalope thundersaur tomb of dracula torrid affairs toxic avenger transmutation of ike garuda trekker trouble with tigers antarctic twilight man first ad showcase ufo alien contact comic zone ultra klutz unicorn isle valkyrie anne rice interview with a vampire anne rice vampire companion anne rice vampire lestat venus wars video jack violent cases wacky squirrel summer fun special wanderers war warheads warlock aricel wasteland web weird wizards of the last resort world without end x terminators zell sworddancer zorro most comics are in near mint to mint condition are bagged in shiny polypropylene bags and backed with white acid free boards shipping is for one book for more than one book or free if you order a large enough amount of stuff i am willing to haggle i have thousands and thousands of other comics so please let me know what you ve been looking for and maybe i can help i will trade for other comics as well as computer equipment video equipment etc let me know what you want to trade geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department of psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university of florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
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rec.autos	re auto air conditioning without freon in article c u fy hvx news cso uiuc edu tspila uxa cso uiuc edu tim spila romulan writes in article apr ntuix ntu ac sg mgqlu ntuix ntu ac sg max lu writes we are working on gas solid adsorption air con system for auto applications in this kind of system the energy for regenerating the adsorbent is from the exhaust gas anyone interested in this mail email me or follow up this thread we may have a discussion on prospects of this technology ok i ll bite how is this supposed to work tim better still years ago they demonstrated a cold air system which only used air it was called a rovax the unit worked very well the short coming was the seal technology where is it today at
rec.autos	re auto air conditioning without freon rovax tobias convex com allen tobias writes better still years ago they demonstrated a cold air system which only used air it was called a rovax the unit worked very well the short coming was the seal technology where is it today as i recall from reading posts here a while back rovax rovacs died because it was larger and noisier than the competing cheap r systems of it day probably a case of bad timing i think the system would have a better chance today now that r systems are on death row but investors may be hard to come by a second time jon hacker get the os march beta cd rom caltech pasadena ca for call ibm os hacker tumbler ridge caltech edu read about it in comp os os beta
rec.autos	re auto air conditioning without freon it is actually simple in principle porous adsorbents like zeolite and activated carbon can adsorb gases evaporated from the adsorbate water or methanol etc giving the cooling effect upon being heated the gas saturated adsorbent bed will give off the gases which are then to be condensed this forms the adsorption refrigeration cycle the only problem is that the cop is very low max max g q lu phd internet mgqlu ntu ac sg division of thermal enginerring bitnet mgqlu ntuvax bitnet school of mpe nanyang technological university phone nanyang avenue singapore fax
rec.autos	re dealer cheated me with wrong odometer reading need help i don t know about where you are but here in california false representation of odometer readings is a criminal felony if you can substantiate this you need to report that dealer to the local authorities you should consult with a lawyer to tell you what civil action you can take as well keep in mind that you will have to prove that the dealer was aware of the change in the dashboard brian donnell
rec.autos	re questions about insurance companies esp geico in article apr julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes in article mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu david g wonnacott writes i m considering switching to geico insurance but have heard that they do not assign a specific agent for each policy or claim i was worried that this might be a real pain when you make a claim i have also heard that they try to get rid of you if you have an accident i ve read in this group that geico has funded the purchasing of radar guns by police depts i m not sure where geico has purchased radar guns in several states i know they have done it here in ct i have also heard horror stories about people that have been insured by geico for years and then had accident and were immediately dropped and once you ve been dropped by any insruance company you become labled a high risk and end up forking out or times what you should be for insurance my suggestion stay where you are or shop around but stay away from geico jeff
rec.autos	re new talon i would also be interested in finding out about the talon and i suspect that many other people would be interested too so let s get some responses on the net the question again does anyone have any info on the eagle talon mitsubishi eclipse plymouth laser i know that the old talon was based on the mitsubishi galant and that in japan a hp twin turbo v galant has been released so anyway any info on the talon would be appreciated steve hui
rec.autos	re dirty diesels in article nataraja opal nataraja rtsg mot com kumaravel natarajan writes i heard the diesels are considered cleaner burning than gas engines because the emit less of carbon monoxide hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen co hc nox but they can put out a lot of particulate matter i heard something about legislation being discussed to clean up diesel emissions is there anything in the works to install scrubbers for diesels how about the feasibility of installing them on trucks and cars would it be any different than a catylitic converter i d assume easier since we re removing particulate matter instead of converting gasses let s hear people s opinions vel natarajan nataraja rtsg mot com motorola cellular arlington hts il this really bugs me the emissions of diesels are the cleanest of any vechicle but they are considered so polluting that they are banned in passenger cars in california what a bunch of crap diesel is the fuel of choice for enviromental benefit in europe while here it s illegal for the same reason the particulates are nothing but carbon they are just an annoyance at worst nothing beats the diesel cycle for efficiency and emissions torque or engine durability it s also cheaper horace dediu gte laboratories sylvan road internet hdediu gte com waltham ma
rec.autos	re ad said nissan altima best seller spiros triantafyllopoulos c st kocrsv delcoelect com wrote but waiiiiiit isn t nissan officially registering the car as far as government paperwork goes nissan stanza altima to avoid costly and lengthy paperwork i read this on the net a while ago and someone actually may have said there s a little stanza logo on the altima somewhere i just bought an altima and like it very much and yes there is a little stanza logo ever so discretely placed on the trunk the altima is emblazoned in big silver letters but the itsy bitsy stanza is shunted to the far left of the trunk lid you can only see it if you get up close to the car and know where to look it is very inconspicuous in fact my first clue that this was a stanza was that the owners manual called the car a nissan stanza altima anybody know why nissan did it this way mark goldsworthy
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article c uwoj bt usenet ucs indiana edu mliggett silver ucs indiana edu matthew liggett writes in apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes i am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have v engines v i don t know of any v legend mr mr lexus es gs sc infiniti j dozens of others including common cars like the toyota camry as an option v don t know of any mustang camaros firebirds some mercedes lexus ls sc acura legend infiniti q lincoln mark viii some cadillacs and other luxury autos v dodge viper v jaguar xjs please add to the list thanks s ssave ole cdac com mliggett silver ucs indiana edu mliggett iugold bitnet junk collector toys r us kid antiauthoritarian and fan of frogs iguanas and other herps cut here for signature balaji ramanathan institute of transportation studies i don t believe in luck university of california irvine i rely on it
rec.autos	domestic content of us japan joint ventures does anyone know what the domestic content is of any of these geo prizm eagle talon ford probe all are made in the us but i have been told they contain mostly foreign parts please follow up directly to me i ll post the findings to the net if there is interest thanks tim newman newman cps msu edu
rec.autos	re mr noisy engine eliot is right about liter engine in the second and last generation mr s but the original guy did not indicate the year of his mr if it s a first generation car like my it has liter engine or perhaps same engine with a supercharger if it s the sound he describes is common to any older toyota engine i ever heard i don t know the relevance of his observations about oil changes my simply makes noise not all that annoying mind you but you hear it well when the engine is right behind your left ear mike s sorry bout that mine is a model non turbo with abs and revised suspension whatever revised means i m in australia so we always seem to get the versions without extras which the europeans and americans get as standard my query is why does the noise get noticeably louder about months after an oil change i just find it a bit wierd that this happens is it the oil i m using mobil or is it the engine the s ge version model ie gets noiser the older the oil is i m only guessing its not annoyingly distressing or anything but just slightly puzzling puzzled
rec.autos	re wife wants convertible in a previous article twetzel ucs indiana edu tom wetzel says in article r tth b i usenet ins cwru edu andrew a spencer aas po cwru edu writes well actually he didn t but we ll pretend the real author of this query has his name tacked in here my wife has informed me that she wants a convertible for her next car i was about to recommend you consider a targa top over a convertible but drew made the point very well when my wife and i were in our s we did the convertible thing with triumphs now in our mid s we still appreciate the open air but prefer targa types there is much less wind noise objects papers blowing around foreign objects getting into the car and one still has almost all the advantages of the convertible tom while it s being mentioned i personally prefer the moonroof sunroof t top targa thing as well i simply don t like cloth tops nor the extra insurance nor the s color matching alot of companies do if i chose a convertible it d be a mazda rx ii i just like the way they look it d have to be in black with color matched black top they look good b vw cabriolet they do a suberb job of matching colors too also last year for them collector s item c mustang gt droptop they look ok too i know this doesn t help but i thought i d do it anyway good luck to your wife and you drew
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots in a previous article dwjz bnr ca doug zolmer says in article apr rtsg mot com kissane black berkeley edu john g kissane writes as a matter of interest does anyone know why autos are so popular in the us while here in europe they are rare just wondering in many of our cities there are traffic signals every feet unsynchronised of course well here in ottawa anyway and the roads are so congested that shifting manually is a real pain in the left foot also most canadians are too stupid to learn how to shift manually gee i gotta co ordinate my two feet on the clutch brake and accelerator and i gotta steer shift and operate the signals optional and radio with my two hands duh it i agree wholeheartedly can t be done also most north american made cars come with the automatic as standard equipment so why bother with a manual when the car can shift for you for no addition money not sure about there in ca but here in us the manuals are quite often the standard equipment of course finding a car with one might be hard but if you read the sticker on the window there is usally an additional k or so tacked on for that lousy tranny so you actually are paying more just that it s sometimes hard to find one that is equipped standard this applies to most cars but not to the luxoyachts eg caddilac licolns etc drew
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes i am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have v engines v don t know of any kidding right corvette several mbz s and bmw s mustang gt etc etc there s a lot of them you from a european site kenny kenny crudup att bl mv t b x kenny mvuts att com
rec.autos	re opel owners in article c t b dg news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes newsgroups rec autos path llpost ll mit edu xn ll mit edu uhog mit edu wupost howland reston ans net ux cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu cka from cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc subject re opel owners date tue apr gmt message id c t b dg news cso uiuc edu references gibbonsa sfu ca c sxi j b news cso uiuc edu apr cactus org sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article c sxi j b news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca darren gibbons writes i m looking for information on opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth is i m not entirely sure but it s a two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking my friend has one sitting in his yard in really nice condition body wise but he transmission has seized up on him so it hasn t run for a while does anyone have any info on these cars the engine compartment looks really tight to work on but it is in fine shape and i am quite interested in it thanks darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca this would be the manta would it not sold through buick dealers in the mid s as the price leader sounds a lot more like an opel gt to me i d guess that this is on the same chassis as the kadett rather than the bigger manta but i could easily be wrong i think the later kadett s were sold here as buick opels craig i think the manta is the european name for the gt i m pretty sure that the only kadett s sold here were are the pontiac lemans i think the gt is just an early s to mid s manta chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area the gt was based on the kadette chassis it was built model years the manta came out in the model year and was a seat coupe matthew r singer mit lincoln laboratory wood street singer ll mit edu lexington ma
rec.autos	re opel owners in article apr convex com maynard convex com mark maynard writes newsgroups rec autos path llpost ll mit edu xn ll mit edu ames agate howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech swrinde dptspd tamsun tamu edu news utdallas edu convex convex maynard from maynard convex com mark maynard subject re opel owners message id apr convex com sender mark maynard nntp posting host trojan convex com organization convex computer corporation richardson tx usa references gibbonsa sfu ca c sxi j b news cso uiuc edu distribution rec autos date tue apr gmt x disclaimer this message was written by a user at convex computer corp the opinions expressed are those of the user and not necessarily those of convex lines in article c sxi j b news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca darren gibbons writes i m looking for information on opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth is i m not entirely sure but it s a two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking gibbonsa sfu ca this would be the manta would it not sold through buick dealers in the mid s as the price leader chintan amin sounds more like an opel gt neat cars fun to drive sold through buick from through if i remember correctly i believe it was in that there were some engine mods made such that parts were not interchangeable with the older models parts are thus much harder to come by for the later models parts in general are not too difficult to find at one time jc whitney carried some stuff including a brand new not remfg long block either a gt or a kharman ghia hmm that spelling looks hosed will be my next project mark in they lowered the engine compression so that it would run on regular gas not to mention the addition of emission controls the also added pop out rear quarter windows alot of parts are available for the gt from c r small cars in ct and used from bill daley s opel parts in ma matthew r singer mit lincoln laboratory wood street singer ll mit edu lexington ma
rec.autos	re questions about insurance companies esp geico in article mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu david g wonnacott writes i m considering switching to geico insurance but have heard that they do not assign a specific agent for each policy or claim i was worried that this might be a real pain when you make a claim i have also heard that they try to get rid of you if you have an accident i ve read in this group that geico has funded the purchasing of radar guns by police depts i m not sure where
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in a previous article marshatt feserve cc purdue edu zauberer says in article apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes i am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have v engines v i don t know of any v legend mr mr v don t know of any are you serious try the deep breath mustang camaro optional on nearly every truck ever built corvettes caprices bmw i caddie eldorado fleetwood seville infiniti q jeep grand cherokee lexus ls lexus sc lincon mark viii town car m b sel and the mercury grand marquis to name a few v jaguar xjs how about v viper v must be one somewhere believe bugatti s coming has out one something like turbos and mucho macho hp one cool price too as i heard at any rate the point is i m pretty sure there is indeed one in production tho rather limited drew
rec.autos	nissan nomenclature was re manual shift bigots wanted in a previous article jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas says the best auto shifters on the street and not the track are those from porsche they wont change if you floor the gas during a turn a few years back a was in a sx auto you guys call it a sx without turbo and was going round a corner i floored it and next thing i know i was pointing backwards the other drivers seemed quite amused shaz you are sure that what you call a sx we call a just curious we also have a nissan predacessor sp to the called a which came in turbo and nonturbo but i don t think we ve ever had a turbo just curious btw i m in the us if that matters drew
rec.autos	re opel owners mliggett silver ucs indiana edu matthew liggett writes in c t b dg news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article c sxi j b news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca darren gibbons writes i m looking for information on opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth is i m not entirely sure but it s a two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking my friend has one sitting in his yard in really nice condition body wise but he transmission has seized up on him so it hasn t run for a while does anyone have any info on these cars the engine compartment looks really tight to work on but it is in fine shape and i am quite interested in it thanks darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca this would be the manta would it not sold through buick dealers in the mid s as the price leader sounds a lot more like an opel gt to me i d guess that this is on the same chassis as the kadett rather than the bigger manta but i could easily be wrong i think the later kadett s were sold here as buick opels craig i think the manta is the european name for the gt i m pretty sure that the only kadett s sold here were are the pontiac lemans i think the gt is just an early s to mid s manta chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area bzzt the manta was a two door sedan in the us it had a engine was sometimes referred to as an opel manta s are also ve hot and fun cars too mliggett silver ucs indiana edu mliggett iugold bitnet junk collector toys r us kid antiauthoritarian and fan of frogs iguanas and other herps funny the manta s over in europe look surprisingly like the opel alluded to by the original poster chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	re opel owners matmcinn nuscc nus sg matthew macintyre at the national university of senegal writes by the way what do people think about the opel calibra i want one and i don t want to move to europe to buy one please make it the next pontiac f car of course i ll have to wait till to buy it chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	alternative fuel vehicles here is a press release from the u s department of energy energy secretary hails president s plan for alternative fuel vehicles to national desk environment and energy reporters contact larry hart of the u s department of energy washington april secretary of energy hazel r o leary today said president clinton s executive order on alternative fuels will make the federal government a driving force behind efforts to increase the availability of both alternative fuel vehicles and fuel supplies president clinton signed the order today which calls for federal purchases of alternative fuel vehicles in numbers over the next three years at least percent higher than those called for in the energy policy act of president clinton also announced that texas land commissioner gary mauro will head up the federal fleet conversion task force to advise o leary on implementation of the executive order i am delighted that i will be working with gary mauro to make this happen o leary said as land commissioner gary mauro has helped make texas a national leader in converting the state fleet to alternative fuels and has been a tireless proponent of natural gas vehicles in speeches across the country the task force is to issue a report within days recommending a plan and schedule of implementation the department of energy and all of us in government must lead by example if the option of alternative fuels is going to become a practical affordable choice for fleet owners across the country o leary said increased use of domestically produced alternative fuels means reducing pollution while creating jobs we believe that energy efficiency protecting the environment and a healthy economy are complimentary goals o leary said that plans call for the department of energy to coordinate the agencies five year purchase plans help with funding for extra purchase or conversion costs and work with gsa to encourage development of the fuel infrastructure needed to make fleet conversions practical under the order the department of energy will also be working with states local governments and industry to coordinate vehicle purchases and encourage manufacturers and fuel suppliers to make alternative fuel vehicles and alternative fuels more widely available canada remote systems toronto ontario
rec.autos	hyundai sonata opinions info wanted i d like to hear stories on experiences with the hyundai sonata i know consumer reports has trashed them but the people i know that have them swear by them they also haven t had the problems with them that consumer reports claims i haven t driven one yet i have driven a hyundai elantra which consumer reports also trashed and was very impressed with it the local hyundai dealership no haggle policy is offering an elantra gls w power moonroof for they also have a sonata base w sunroof for i know my preference is for a sonata gls w sunroof and spd automatic i ll decide which engine i prefer after test driving both the cyl and the v the sonata is also offering a rebate hmmm that s another question is the following scenario the appropriate manner to handle negotiation make offer subtract rebate from offer talk trade subtract trade from offer to get final price rhonda gaines systems network administrator internet gaines fibercom com fibercom inc p o box uucp uunet fibercom gaines roanoke va fax phone or x
rec.autos	re nissan nomenclature was re manual shift bigots wanted aas po cwru edu andrew a spencer writes you are sure that what you call a sx we call a just curious we also have a nissan predacessor sp to the called a which came in turbo and nonturbo but i don t think we ve ever had a turbo just curious btw i m in the us if that matters drew what we currently know as the sx is known elsewhere as a sx graham e thomas blah blah blah blah blah georgia institute of technology blah blah blah blah blah internet grahamt oit gatech edu blah blah blah blah blah
rec.autos	re mr noisy engine in article r oe c usenet ins cwru edu aas po cwru edu andrew a spencer writes nice theory too bad the mr s never came with a four cylinder over liters more like or did they were the nonturbo mr ii s or some such foot in mouth again drew the first generation mr s were s which were very smooth i d be real surprised if the original poster was talking about a st generation car the second generation cars were for the non turbo and for the turbo i drove the non turbo and calling it unpleasant is to be kind to it i also understand that anyone using balancing shafts on four cylinders must pay saab a royalty for using their patented design like porsche s i wrong and wrong mitsubishi owns the patent which has since expired which is why everybody with a shred of integrity is putting balance shafts into their big s the notable exception is nissan and only for the us market suckers i guess we need to write to c d and start telling them to publish graphs for engine vibration over rpm then you ll see usenet discussions of the form engine a has peak vibrations db less than engine b therefore engine a is better than engine b eliot
rec.autos	re is car saftey important i of course car safety is important i for one used to think that these guys are going way ott with their airtbags sorry del button dont work and side impact bars and crash zones and the list goes on just tpo make the car heavbier and all its penalties bur recently i had a little accident on my bike and not as bad as john s but after the accident it made me realizer i should have worn a helmet my mom always insistede i should i was more concerned about my hair style a few days agi i read a report in which the old rea rea shit renault had an accident and its roof caved inwards and crushed the occupents heads
rec.autos	re questions about insurance companies esp geico in article c unfy e i dove nist gov keys starchild ncsl nist gov lawrence b keys writes in article c ui u ao murdoch acc virginia edu jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister writes in article apr julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes in article mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu david g wonnacott writes i m considering switching to geico insurance but have heard that they do not assign a specific agent for each policy or claim i was worried that this might be a real pain when you make a claim i have also heard that they try to get rid of you if you have an accident don t worry about this they ll drop you like a hot potato after you do make a claim they ll just make filing the claim a pain but it will end when they leave you in the lurch i ve read in this group that geico has funded the purchasing of radar guns by police depts i m not sure where more than that geico funded the company that developed lidar when locals showed a reluctance to buy the units geico started giving them away i know they ve given units to the florida highway patrol county sheriff s a and some local governments the real question is why this is the hook geico and other ins co s can tell which drivers represent risk this is a determination they can make after you receive a speeding ticket from one of geico s lidar units most drivers do not represent increased risk even after a ticket or two but this gives them the opportunity to raise rates for equal risk it s called extra profits they also know how silly the nsl is and how it is almost universally ignored driving in excess of the nsl gets you a ticket an increase in your rates points on your license but it doesn t make you a riskier driver to insure like the sound of this like the people who thought up the scheme go geico unless you have some driving history problems you re usually better to go with one of the major companies and stay there you ll get long term customer discounts on your premiums now about the of your premium that is paid as commission that s another story for another day
rec.autos	re questions about insurance companies esp geico bob excellent to the point and correct spread the word
rec.autos	lexus and infiniti first off the correct spelling of nissan s luxury automobile division is infiniti not infinity i would also like to clear up the question of what kind of engines power lexus and infiniti automobiles since a person had remarked in earlier posts that most lexus and infiniti models had v engines while at the same time saying that several of each manufacturer used v engines lexus ls v gs v es v sc v sc v infiniti q v j v g inline i must admit that i cannot remeber for sure here i hope this helps bsb
rec.autos	borgward question my ex husband i used to own borgwards haven t seen any for a long time they were really good cars does ayone out there know anything about them now i heard they were being made in mexico but of course they wouldn t be the original german if that s even true when i ve been in mexico i haven t seen any we loved ours even tho they were ugly they had names one was humphrey borgward
rec.autos	re the mustang in article c xtp mtb murdoch acc virginia edu jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister writes in article apr virginia edu jmm h virginia edu the blade runner writes i just have got to remind all of you that this is it yes that s right somtime this fall ford the granddaddy of cars will be introducing an all new mega cool way too fast for accord drivers mustang it s supposed to be streamlined looking similar to the mach iii concept car ford came out with around january i can t wait anyone out there hear anything about it recently if everything i ve read is correct ford is doing nothing but re skinning the existing mustang with minor suspension modifications and the pictures i ve seen indicate they didn t do a very good job of it the new mustang is nothing but a re cycle of a year old car jeff gee is it already yes it will still be on the fox program chasis anything that will be different on the new car as far as mechanical s is unknown the suspension will most likely be changed as well as the drive drain from what has been printed on it there is no clear idea of what will be done as some say it will have the modular v and others the current small block just have to wait and see also is far as styling goes from what i seen is good a return to tradition c scoop on the sides and roof line much like a or fastback bp
rec.autos	re likelihood of radio being stolen the question is not whether your radio will be stolen the question is when your radio will be stolen tommy reingold at t bell labs holmdel nj tommy boole att com or att boole tommy
rec.autos	a c service rip off i went to a place called american car care centers to check my car for a c leak after checking i was told that there is a leak in the compressor seal at the end in addition to the labor for the check i was charged dollars for a pound of freon although they evacuated my a c afterwards because of the leak first is it fair for him to charge me for a pound of freon plus tax second what can i do about this if this is unfair albert wu
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast in article apr csa lbl gov jtchew csa lbl gov ad absurdum per aspera writes wharf wrat rites they were designed for speeds of upwards of i forget the exact spec but for military vehicles that s in a dodge powerwagon not in a ford taurus ever once in a while you still see a reference to the super slab system as interstate and defense highways but whether the military has much of anything that goes on the road is another matter a few of their most whomped up diesel trucks maybe load permitting the military surplus stuff i ve driven jeep classic willys kaiser amc pre independent suspension and power wagons slant in a crew cab pickup actually i ve heard that some m abrams tank commanders take the governers off their turbine engines and can acheive mph on a paved road never seen it myself but i believe it weren t exactly congenial at highway speeds and i wouldn t swear any of them would do except as a bedload on a semi stuff deleted joe just another personal opinion from the people s republic of berkeley mustang gt bob pitas ush bpita ctp com up at ned epping nh cambridge ma geddy lee in yyz disclaimer these opinions are mine obviously since they end with my sig
rec.autos	re warning please read in article r d d s agate berkeley edu bh anarres cs berkeley edu brian harvey writes rfelix netcom com robbie felix writes how about the thousands of kind teenagers who volunteer at local agencies to help children seniors the homeless hear hear thanks robbie you also don t read that much about violence against teenagers such as george bush burying alive tens of thousands of unarmed iraqi year olds who were trying to surrender with bulldozers on the other hand i think it is true without singling out teenagers for blame that violence is more socially acceptable than it used to be those of us who d like to discourage violence have plenty of work to do with people of all ages well this isn t the right group for this but i have to say that i don t think violence is any more socially acceptable now by any means how can you say that when we used to have of pistol toting gunslingers as heros or even gangland thugs being considered romantic do you think our great grandparent got yelled at by their parents for playing cowboys and indians i don t think so that behavior was somewhat encouraged back then in fact i think the only difference between now and then is that nowadays when some teenager kills another one in a classroom in california we here about it in ma the same day back in the old days they d never hear about something like that period sorry about posting to rec autos but this is where it came up mustang gt bob pitas ush bpita ctp com up at ned epping nh cambridge ma geddy lee in yyz disclaimer these opinions are mine obviously since they end with my sig
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes the subarus all use degree vees in their engines a degree v ya gotta love it eliot
rec.autos	re locking lugnuts tire rebalance in rec autos mas skcla monsanto com writes xif you put a locking lugnut on your tires do you need to have your xtires rebalanced x xjohn mas x xe mail address mas skcla monsanto com since the wheel tire is balanced off the car i e the lugnuts are not normally involved how would they do that i would think that since the lugs are so close to the center of rotation any slight difference in weight between a normal lugnut and a locking one would not have any noticable effect on the balance i could be wrong it is friday afternoon mack costello mcostell oasys dt navy mil code formerly david taylor model basin carderock division hq nswc bethesda md phone
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article nataraja geode nataraja rtsg mot com kumaravel natarajan writes mliggett silver ucs indiana edu matthew liggett writes in apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes i am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have v engines v i don t know of any ditto seems to me that i heard that some early saabs were cycle v s then again who could possibly care v legend mr mr what s an mr or mr most any gm w the v v don t know of any mustang camaros firebirds some mercedes lexus ls sc infinity q v jaguar xjs some mercedes bmw il lamborghini countach lamborghini diablo please add to the list vel natarajan nataraja rtsg mot com motorola cellular arlington hts il
rec.autos	information needed hi this is my first time to post on this news group now a days i have stucked at a certain problem i have mazda mx non turbo fuel injection there is a engine warning signal on the dash board while driving this signal turns on but not always what does this mean in the manual they say go to authorized mazda dealer it is really good idea don t you think so i wanna know how the engine warning signal comes is anybody out there who can give me same advice as authorized mazda dealer can give youjip won yjwon cs umn edu
rec.autos	re lexus and infiniti in article apr msus msus edu w tigger stcloud msus edu writes first off the correct spelling of nissan s luxury automobile division is infiniti not infinity who cares about typos of these meaningless synthetic names if the cars were named after a person e g honda i d be more respectful lexus gs v es v sc v wrong the gs and sc use straight sixes while the es uses a v only a giant like toyota can afford to have both a v and inline in its lineup but that won t last for long eliot
rec.autos	re help with buick regal in article c wykp l ulowell ulowell edu gvahe cs ulowell edu gerry vahe writes hhheeelllppp i m going crazy i have a buick regal with over miles on it just recently when i go over a bump of any size the rear drivers s side of th e car feels like there is something hitting the floor board the noise is ampli fied when i am going around a corner when there is less weight above the tire wh en i hit a bump i had the whole brake drum off today checked under the car to see if th e muffler was hitting or something and i cant seem to find anything at all eve rything seems to be tight any ideas could it bee a shock absorber is there any way i can tell anything will help and be greatly appreciated gerry check out the shocks where they mount at both ends if you have the type that have a loop from lack of a better term and a bolt like piece sticking through there should be a rubber bushing between the loop and the bolt is it there is it crushed and allowing metal to metal contact i hope you can make some sense of this good luck
rec.autos	re the mustang in article gjg m bgsu edu gjg andy bgsu edu greg gantzer writes in article apr virginia edu jmm h virginia edu the blade runner wrote i just have got to remind all of you that this is it yes that s right somtime this fall ford the granddaddy of cars will be introducing an all new mega cool way too fast for accord drivers mustang it s supposed to be streamlined looking similar to the mach iii concept car ford came out with around january i can t wait anyone out there hear anything about it recently yeah it looks like shit nothing like the mach iii check out the latest issue of popular mechanics they have a picture of one it looks like a cross between a dodge daytona and an eagle talon only much uglier this car looks like it should have been produced in not i ll pick up that pm and have a look maybe the picture in there is not the actual car but a prototype i saw the mach iii and was not all that impressed it looked way too japanese for me the tear drop headlights reminded me of a nissan nx glad i didn t hold out for the and bought a maybe they ll work on the design a little bit listen to consumers and come out with nice looking or it always takes a while to work out the kinks in a new design e g the f body camaro firebirds btw the new camaros look like shit too keath milligan software engineer videotelecom corporation austin texas jkm vtel com reaper wixer bga com try real time communications or telnet wixer bga com
rec.autos	re improvements in automatic transmissions in article c weqe ig news rich bnr ca herling crchh nosubdomain nodomain brent herling writes in article apr westminster ac uk jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas writes i just wanted to know to wheelspin in an auto you keep the gear in n gas it then stick the gear in d i ve never tried this but am sure it works but does this screw up the autobox we re having a bit of a debate about it here ah yes the neutral slam i know that gm tested the old th s and th s by shifting from reverse to forward gears repeatedly while holding the engine at high rpms the units hold up incredibly well this is also the recommended technique to rock a stuck vehicle out of the mud i think the hydraulics are up to the task but the mechanicals of the driveline may object by breaking something ericy i agree about the durability of the old th trannies from gm while i never intentionally slamed my firebird ci conv into gear i would leave the trannie in low read st grab hold hit the pedal and once the tires grabbed take off when i reached about mph the turbo auto would shift to s read super or nd and leave about to foot of double stripped rubber on the ground most everyone i knew at the time was quite impressed with peeling out at mph the trannie held up just fine motor mounts would last about a year until i tied the motor down with large chains oh yea fyi pontiac ci bored over large valve heads holley spread bore crain blazer cam don t remember the specs positrac hooker headers dual exhaust get this conv leather seats power windows power top ac cruise etc oh yea i also pulled the cocktail shakers weights from the front and removed the lead pellet from the accelerator pedal damn us regulations oh how i miss that car under sec and about to mpg well i don t miss the mpg front wheels off the ground with three quick jabs at the pedal bent pushrods stripped rocker studs every months i really wonder what kind of rev s i was turning no tach re improvements in automatic transmissions anyone seen one of these lately i d buy it back in a sec open top brent am i the only one that smells a little el caca del toro here
rec.autos	vascar i know this is the wrong place to post this but i couldn t find any relevant newsgroups in my area for those of you who are from pa where is vascar where the cops measure your speed from the time it takes you to cross the distance between two white lines on the road right most commonly used i m especially interested in the pittsburgh area specific locations prior experiences if possible for those pa and non pa if they use vascar in your state is it most common in rural city highway areas etc what i m interested in mainly is where i can speed with the least risk of being caught you can always detect radar but there s no way to fight vascar unless you know where all the white lines are thanks a lot arun jayakumar
rec.autos	honda crx dx honda crx dx white w blue int original owner miles mostly highway recent tune up new battery oil changed every miles kenwood high power cassette receiver w spkrs or best reasonable offer if interested please e mail me at goose ftp com or call after pm ask for kevin
rec.autos	re best radar detector valentine i ve had a valentine for about months now and i agree that it is the best det ector available the point here is trust and reliability i ve been able to tr ust the valentine more than any other detector i ve owend if the valentine sa ys that there is a moderate to strong radar source in front of me then it s mo re than likely to be a speed trap with my other detectors i ve gotten so many falses that i ve begun to ignore someo of the warnings because i didn t want t o drive like i had one foot on the brake and one on the gas pedal that directional indicator really really helps plus more info is almost alwa ys better than less info no matter how smart radar detectors get the human br ain is usually smarter so if i m going to make a decisio based on information at hand i want all the info i can get plus if you divide the overall streng th of the radar signal by the number of bogeys reported you ll find that each bogey is pretty weak and therefore not a radar threat with other detectors yo u ll just get one strong warning my logic may be faulty on this but i think i t works okay although i must admit that i haven t really noticed the reflection problem of one radar souce thomas
rec.autos	re saturn extended warranty i agree with gaia even though the saturn has proved to be a very reliable car so far a little money spent now is worth the peace of mind in my opinion getting the powertrain warranty is enough in my case that s be cause anything that needed repairing in the interior sunroof windows doors etc i could do myself i just didn t want to mess with the engine and such plus i think the extra years of hour roadside assistance must be worthe so meting i opted for the year plan for thomas
rec.autos	toyota camry toyota camry le dr sedan ac at power windows and locks k miles asking pls call or send e mail to this account
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast boyle cactus org craig boyle wrote marshatt feserve cc purdue edu zauberer writes wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes remember roads in america are not designed for speeds above meaning they would be safe at roads like the autobahn are smoother straiter wider and slightly banked well that s news before the speed limit on texas highways was the speed limit on the new jersey turnpike i was there were no speed limits in nevada or montana i guess i wasn t clear enough here i said the roads were designed for speeds of or so and still be safe the current will add a saftey margin actually the roads were designated as safe at when they were built in the s taking into account the kinds of cars then available the number would be much higher today because the cars tires and just about everything else has imprivoved a lot except the drivers tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
rec.autos	re lexus and infiniti in article apr msus msus edu w tigger stcloud msus edu writes first off the correct spelling of nissan s luxury automobile division is infiniti not infinity i would also like to clear up the question of what kind of engines power lexus and infiniti automobiles since a person had remarked in earlier posts that most lexus and infiniti models had v engines while at the same time saying that several of each manufacturer used v engines lexus ls v gs v es v sc v sc v the gs and sc have an inline infiniti q v j v g inline i must admit that i cannot remeber for sure here inline is correct i hope this helps bsb keith
rec.autos	val vs bel sti was re best radar detector in article apr convex com tobias convex com allen tobias wrote i live in the backyard of the folks who make the stalker radar system the valentine has saved me many many many times from the stealth revenue enhancement traps of the local area i have had all the major brand detectors and imho nothing else even comes close to the v i hadn t heard of the valentine before car driver and other auto magazines recommend bel detectors i was considering their latest the sti which picks up super wideband ka and laser as well it also avoids radar detector detectors although i really don t care about this since i doubt i ll be driving in virginia anytime soon or have any other states also made detectors iilegal how does the valentine compare with the bel products brian donnell
rec.autos	re v engines in pwe slipknot mit edu pwe slipknot mit edu paul w emery writes on the subject of the v ford in the uk used v engines exstensively in their ford transit vans this brings back a memory from the seventies i played in a band at the time and for something like pounds four of us bought a tranny to cart the gear around in it was in terrible shape cosmetically because it s last owner was a pig farmer we spent days cleaning it up and putting in a partition and more seating but til the day it died everytime you turned on the fan to the defroster dried pig shit came flying out the vents back to the engine if i remember right it was a cc v and that thing could haul we could fill it with equipment and up to people and it went like a bat out of hell of course there were no pollution controls on the engine and the gas was leaded and higher octane than we get now when the mechanical fuel pump quit we put in an electric one from a morris minor that worked great ah fond memories saab sonnet iii too i believe pwe slipknot mit edu i d like to own a squadron of tanks paul w emery ron nasty the rutles m i t magnet lab cambridge mass u s a costellobeatlesspinaltapfawltytowersmuttsavengersstartrek tngenglandrutles mliggett silver ucs indiana edu mliggett iugold bitnet junk collector toys r us kid antiauthoritarian and fan of frogs iguanas and other herps
rec.autos	thanks nova advice i want to thank all the people that responded to my post a few weeks ago about buying an chev nova with over mi i decided to buy the car and have had it for about a month i replaced the front brake pads and changed the oil so far no problems have surfaced i received many suggestions and encouragement on this purchase and figured a late thank you was better than none thanks to all jim
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in apr cs tulane edu finnegan nrlssc navy mil writes in article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes the subarus all use degree vees in their engines eliot wouldn t that make them an i or would they really be an henceforth referred to as underscore horizontally opposed or boxer great idea actually smooth running low center of gravity also used in some honda gullwings corvairs porsches others kenneth finnegan nrlssc navy mil mliggett silver ucs indiana edu mliggett iugold bitnet junk collector toys r us kid antiauthoritarian and fan of frogs iguanas and other herps
rec.autos	re wife wants convertible in article c unfj pa usenet ucs indiana edu tom wetzel twetzel ucs indiana edu writes in article r tth b i usenet ins cwru edu andrew a spencer aas po cwru edu writes my wife has informed me that she wants a convertible for her next car i was about to recommend you consider a targa top over a convertible but drew made the point very well when my wife and i were in our s we did the convertible thing with triumphs now in our mid s we still appreciate the open air but prefer targa types there is much less wind noise objects papers blowing around foreign objects getting into the car and one still has almost all the advantages of the convertible my last car had t tops big t tops my current car is a convertible imho if you re after that convertible feel t tops open top sunroofs moonroofs whatever just don t cut it there s no substitute for a convertible if you re not after that sun beating down on you the wind in your hair and teeth the flopsum and jetsum getting in the car and the noises associated with the whooshing of the wind you re not after that convertible feel so go with something with at least a hole above the driver but don t call it a convertible and i do wonder how those targa tops would compare against my roll bar in a rollover situation of course i d rather not test it in my car i too am in my early s a convertible accept no substitute tonya i d rather be sailing flynn w sunrise blvd ft lauderdale fl let s just punch through that uucp uunet gould tflynn sand bar crew of natty dread internet tflynn encore com
rec.autos	re wife wants convertible and here s my two cents the best convertible for the money imo is the miata yes it s small but you re buying it as a second car i hope so you don t need the cargo room of a big car it s got enough power for fun it s rwd like a sports car ought to be i m gonna regret that and the top while manual operates like a dream seconds and one hand to lower and not much longer to raise the targa type cars are nice but they re not real convertibles ken warren the secrets of a good life are early nights good food excercise and clean living e mail kenw netaxs com but the secrets of a happy life are late nights wild parties kinky sex and junk food
rec.autos	re mercury villager minivan good buy i came across this interesting information in my local public library while researching minivans it is the dealer price and the retail price for a minivan i am thinking about purchasing someone told me that the number for base price was slightly lower than the current price but this should still give you some idea about pricing and how much you can negotiate mercury villager gs dealer retail base price air conditioning rear defroster calif emissions passenger seating am fm radio no cassette std std automatic transmission std std anti lock brakes std std destination the total dealer cost is the total retail price is nissan quest xe dealer retail base price air conditioning std std rear defroster std std calif emissions passenger seating std std am fm cassette std std automatic transmission std std anti lock brakes destination the total dealer cost is the total retail price is
rec.autos	re improvements in automatic transmissions shazad barlas jkjec westminster ac uk wrote to wheelspin in an auto you keep the gear in n gas it then stick the gear in d i ve never tried this but am sure it works but does this screw up the autobox we re having a bit of a debate about it here i ve known more people to leave their rear ends in pieces doing this especially if they have reasonable power to transmit and good traction on the road surface you re better off powerbraking wes fujii a real motor is an oldsmobile rocket hurst this is not the new generation of olds wes banzai fujii olds boise idaho wesf hpdmd boi hp com
rec.autos	re locking lugnuts tire rebalance in article apr skcla monsanto com mas skcla monsanto com writes if you put a locking lugnut on your tires do you need to have your tires rebalanced john mas e mail address mas skcla monsanto com well it depends on what kind of locking lugnuts you have my previous car had locking lugnuts that weighed about oz more than the others the locking lugnuts were factory equipment and according to the factory service manual after tire balancing the technician mechanic was supposed to put a oz counterweight on the rim opposite the locking nut i always had vibration problems with those stupid lugnuts since no one ever did the service correctly i eventually got rid of the locking lugnuts and replaced them with the standard lugnuts unfortunately i found out about the counterweighting technique months after i got rid of the locking nuts my present car a saturn sc has locking lugnuts that i bought at the dealer and are made specifically for the saturn they have been made to be exactly the same weight as the non locking lugnuts said so on the package and i verified it myself i haven t had any vibration problems with the tires at all due to the nuts in of ownership i did have some other vibration problems but it was due to a poor job of tire balancing tom
rec.autos	re the mustang in article c xtp mtb murdoch acc virginia edu jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister writes in article apr virginia edu jmm h virginia edu the blade runner writes i just have got to remind all of you that this is it yes that s right somtime this fall ford the granddaddy of cars will be introducing an all new mega cool way too fast for accord drivers mustang it s supposed to be streamlined looking similar to the mach iii concept car ford came out with around january i can t wait anyone out there hear anything about it recently if everything i ve read is correct ford is doing nothing but re skinning the existing mustang with minor suspension modifications and the pictures i ve seen indicate they didn t do a very good job of it the new mustang is nothing but a re cycle of a year old car jeff what i heard there was a new engine slated for the mustang something like hp ok it was from one of their other lines eric alter
rec.autos	some taurus misc maint are there any fairly cheap or so ways to increase the performance on this car unfortunately a taurus is not exactly a muscle car so i m looking for ways to increase the performance there is a company in florida that sells computer chips that supposedly get a few hp and torque out of the don t have the address but saw the ad in hot rod and some other car magazines also you could open up the exhaust get an exhaust with a larger i d hope this helps if you find anything else let me know i ve got a taurus l george howell george howell goucher wb ffv ampr org
rec.autos	re rfi art of clutchless shifting in article apr ra oc com lusky ccwf cc utexas edu jonathan r lusky writes shifting without the clutch on a transmission with syncros can and will cause transmission damage the only question being how long it takesto grenade something for the trans in my pulsar se it was about k miles but it had a weak tranny in the first place please explain the why of this i have over k miles usage of clutchless shift and no problems krispy
rec.autos	re mercury villager minivan good buy the villager quest seem like the best of the cravan voyager copies to come along since the mazda mpv i ll agree about villager but not mpv it s so small that i d class it as a suv with an extra seat shoehorned in to get any rear cargo space you shove the back seat up against the middle seat eliminating all leg room back to the villager only the price is controversial and the use of attack belts instead of point belts that killed it for me andrew klossner andrew frip wv tek com
rec.autos	shifting without clutch while is it ok to take the car out of gear without using the clutch while the car is turned off thanks in advance please reply by mail eric
rec.autos	re dirty diesels in article ceylon gte com hhd harvey gte com horace dediu writes in article nataraja opal nataraja rtsg mot com kumaravel natarajan writes i heard the diesels are considered cleaner burning than gas engines because the emit less of carbon monoxide hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen co hc nox but they can put out a lot of particulate matter i heard something about legislation being discussed to clean up diesel emissions is there anything in the works to install scrubbers for diesels how about the feasibility of installing them on trucks and cars would it be any different than a catylitic converter i d assume easier since we re removing particulate matter instead of converting gasses let s hear people s opinions this really bugs me the emissions of diesels are the cleanest of any vechicle but they are considered so polluting that they are banned in passenger cars in california what a bunch of crap diesel is the fuel of choice for enviromental benefit in europe while here it s illegal for the same reason the particulates are nothing but carbon they are just an annoyance at worst nothing beats the diesel cycle for efficiency and emissions torque or engine durability it s also cheaper diesels fall into the same emissions mythology as alcohol fuels the main reason they are considered cleaner is because they are better at the emissions we actually measure and regulate but they also contribute additional emissions which have long been determined to be as harmful but no suitable control or limits have been defined current evidence is pointing to most visible smog actually being diesel emissions and suspended particles and less of a photo chemical reaction diesel particulates are now becoming a major concern in decreased lung capacity and alcohols emit signifcantly more aldehydes a known carcinigen than gasoline the evidence is mounting that while we have been beating the gasoline engine to death we may have been ignoring the effects of the alternatives and anyone who thinks diesels are so great should go and spend a few hours in rush hour traffic in some cities in europe there the stench of the diesels is awful and it can even burn the eyes diesels being clean is only relative to our current standards mark
rec.autos	choice of gauges if you had free reign to design your own instrument cluster which gauges would you choose to have beyond the basic set i consider the basic set to be tach coolant temp or cylinder head temp for air cooled engines oil pressure amps speedo fuel others that are nice to have volts maybe this should be in the basic set vacuum boost i can think of a few others but what are your ideas and why dave
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article r ufk fr usenet ins cwru edu aas po cwru edu andrew a spencer writes in a previous article finnegan nrlssc navy mil says in article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes the subarus all use degree vees in their engines eliot wouldn t that make them an i or would they really be an henceforth referred to as underscore i think that it is technicaly known as a degree vee configuration could be wrong this is how i ve seen them referred to drew i ve always heard them referred to horizontally opposed joe joseph staudt telxon corp joes telxon com p o box usenet is like tetris for people who still akron oh remember how to read x j heller
rec.autos	re rfi art of clutchless shifting i m not familiar with the trannies used in winston cup but in the trans am cars i ve played with the transmissions were the racing variety with dog clutches instead of sychros in a transmission with dog clutches the gears are always engaged with each other and moving the dog clutches engages the gears to the shafts motorcycle transmissions are the same way shifting without the clutch on a transmission with syncros can and will cause transmission damage the only question being how long it takesto grenade something for the trans in my pulsar se it was about k miles but it had a weak tranny in the first place just out of curiosity how is this dog clutch any different from a synchro transmission what you described sounds the same to me in fact what little i ve studied on trannies the instructor referred to the synchros as dogs and said they were synonymous the gears are always meshed in a synchronized gearbox and you slip the synchro gears back and forth by shifting or at least that is what i was taught explain por favour motorcycle transmissions don t have synchros the engagment dogs are very corse and sloppy there are maybe teeth dogs on the side of the gears that engage the next gear over as the forks slide the gears back and forth to shift start to apply pressure at the same time the clutch is pulled the clutch is a hand lever and shift quickly if you try a slow lazy shift it will grind you just have to pop it into the next gear before it has a chance to grind there isn t a neutral between gears obviously there is but you can t select it with the shifter so double clutching is not a possibility speed shifting which is what i have always heard clutchless shifting called works pretty well for upshifts with some practice but i usually use the clutch especially for the lower gears i think auto as in automobile trannys are similar except that the engagment dogs are very fine with no slop and the addition of syncho rings the gear teeth are always engaged in auto transmissions that are synchronized but may not be in non synchro gears reverse and sometimes first frank ball ur m frankb sad hp com work hewlett packard fax home valley house drive it xt seca f pl rohnert park ca kc wug law ama dod i m the nra
rec.autos	re mercury villager minivan good buy in article r uckinncmf gap caltech edu wen king cs caltech edu wen king su writes path eclipse yktnews watson ibm com hawnews watson ibm com newsgate watson ibm com news ans net europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov nntp server caltech edu wen king from wen king cs caltech edu wen king su newsgroups rec autos date apr gmt organization california institute of technology lines references r ejinnk j gap caltech edu r cr innvar sumax seattleu edu nntp posting host neptune cs caltech edu keywords mercury villager minivan van cars jittlov in article r cr innvar sumax seattleu edu smorris sumax seattleu edu steven a morris writes the villager quest seem like the best of the cravan voyager copies to come along since the mazda mpv the nissan maxima engine paired with the maxima speed auto trans should be an excellent drive train and the rest of the vehicle seems well engineered only the price is controversial hmm the last time i checked villager quest does not have a maxima engine and is very much under powered for its weight same engine different state of tune less hp and maybe more torque my friend at work regularly takes people in his and it seems to haul around just fine jeff goss
rec.autos	re questions about insurance companies esp geico in article mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu david g wonnacott writes i m considering switching to geico insurance i got numerous complaints about geico and several helpful pointers to other good insurance companies i have decided to go with the erie insurance exchange which seems to combine high ratings from the net and consumer reports with low rates at least for me thanks for all the responses
rec.autos	re mercury villager minivan good buy i have tested both vehicles identically equipped both for week long periods curiously and consider these are test vehicles i found the mercury higher in build quality than the nissan either choice is good but beware that i did not experience reasonable mileage with the v average city driving was mpg with about avg on the highway both were optioned to the hilt the nissan had leather the villager was in the k range and the nissan was over k bob
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article apr dsd es com bmoss grinch sim es com brent woody moss writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu steven j orlin writes in article apr cbnewsj cb att com rdb cbnewsj cb att com ronald j deblock jr writes you can avoid these problems entirely by installing an oil drain valve in place of the bolt i have one on both of my cars there have been no leaks in miles combined miles on both cars yes but then someone would have no problem draining your oil in a parking lot all they have to do is reach underneath turn a valve and forget the trip home but there is less likelyhood they have a wrench with them i personally recommend installing a special locking drain plug to keep vandals away steve i was worried about someone stealing my oil once also i finally decided to just have my drain plug welded shut it works great i figure that when i add three or four quarts when the oil light comes on every month or so that it s just as good or better than the old wives tale of changing the oil and filter every miles works for me i must say either i ve just fallen for this or you guys are really paranoid you re actually worried about somebody stealing your oil c mon you think a vandal ll do that that s absolutely ridiculous besides how hard is it to get under the car to change the oil i can say from experience on the cars that i ve driven and changed the oil on my mazda is pretty much a pain but once you ve done it once you don t forget how and it gets easier i can t imagine any other cars are much worse than mine andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.autos	for sale toyota camry toyota camry for sale deluxe package speed grey power windows power door locks am fm cassette power steering power brakes k highway miles excellent condition rob fusi rwf lehigh edu after pm e mail me for more info day until ask for bob fusi
rec.autos	re questions about insurance companies esp geico in article buck granite buck granite ma bull com ken buck writes unless you live in an area that gets frequent damaging hail storms nahhh only about once a week march through may and sometimes in the fall
rec.autos	re slick any good mad a fermi clas virginia edu michael a davis writes chances are that this has been discussed to death already and if so could someone who has kept the discussion mail me or direct me to an archive site basically i am just wondering if slick really does all it says that it does and also is there any data to support the claim thanks for any info mike davis i don t have any written data but i know what i have experienced i use s in everything including my lawnmowers in my car it smoothed the idle and reduced the operating temp by degrees i havent used it long enough to test for wear but some people i know have a farmer that lives near by used to have to overhaul his big deisel tractors at least every other year if not every year since he has been using s he has went years without an overhaul also a friend at a machine shop has in the past rebuilt engines with k miles on them because the coustomer thought it was time these coustomers had ran s since almost new it was found when measuring the internals of the engine that they showed only about the amount of wear that would be expected of k miles not k in my opinion it works beware the cat is on the prowel disclamer hey i m a student a cat hungry as hell i don t need one detomaso pantera efi twin turbo david j doddek with liscence to fly it flies uofi pantera uxa cso uiuc edu
rec.autos	re warning please read in article apr ctp com bpita ctp com bob pitas writes in article r d d s agate berkeley edu bh anarres cs berkeley edu brian harvey writes rfelix netcom com robbie felix writes how about the thousands of kind teenagers who volunteer at local agencies to help children seniors the homeless hear hear thanks robbie you also don t read that much about violence against teenagers such as george bush burying alive tens of thousands of unarmed iraqi year olds who were trying to surrender with bulldozers on the other hand i think it is true without singling out teenagers for blame that violence is more socially acceptable than it used to be those of us who d like to discourage violence have plenty of work to do with people of all ages well this isn t the right group for this but i have to say that i don t think violence is any more socially acceptable now by any means how can you say that when we used to have of pistol toting gunslingers as heros or even gangland thugs being considered romantic do you think our great grandparent got yelled at by their parents for playing cowboys and indians i don t think so that behavior was somewhat encouraged back then in fact i think the only difference between now and then is that nowadays when some teenager kills another one in a classroom in california we here about it in ma the same day back in the old days they d never hear about something like that period yeah people act really shocked about violence as though it were new to our species what about the holocaust the crusades the salem witch trials the religious persecutions of the middle ages what about violent acts carried out in the name of religion all over the world what about the early christians put to death by the romans the jews persecuted by christians there are a lot more humans today than there have ever been i do not know the stats but there are far more people on the planet than there were or hundred years ago the per capita acts of violence are probably not significantly different than they were a hundred or a thousand years ago there is nothing new about violence rf
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article c wphp kl megatest com alung megatest com aaron lung writes v s v s and v s man can you imagine doing a valve adjustment on one that has multiple non hydraulic valves in each cylinder aaron i was at the indianapolis motor speedway museum the other day and one of their very early winners was valves per cylinder and either front wheel drive or all wheel drive i think front wheel drive and that was in spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c st kocrsv delcoelect com software technology delco electronics gm hughes electronics kokomo in i post therefore i armm
rec.autos	re val vs bel sti was re best radar detector in article brian hotspare arc nasa gov brian gothamcity jsc nasa gov brian donnell writes in article apr convex com tobias convex com allen tobias wrote i live in the backyard of the folks who make the stalker radar system the valentine has saved me many many many times from the stealth revenue enhancement traps of the local area i have had all the major brand detectors and imho nothing else even comes close to the v i hadn t heard of the valentine before car driver and other auto magazines recommend bel detectors i was considering their latest the sti which picks up super wideband ka and laser as well it also avoids radar detector detectors although i really don t care about this since i doubt i ll be driving in virginia anytime soon or have any other states also made detectors iilegal how does the valentine compare with the bel products brian donnell no comparison the bel is just a hooped up wideband escort like detector no directional indicators no bogey counter no radar signature analysis no remote display option not as sensitive not as well built had it sent it back at
rec.autos	re saturn extended warranty in article r n innie shelley u washington edu gaia carson u washington edu i we are gaia writes in article r bqginn ei roundup crhc uiuc edu vivek crhc uiuc edu vivek chickermane writes advice on saturn extended warranty i placed an order for a saturn sl and it is expected next week the saturn retailer gave me some pamphlets about the extended warranty plan and i have been thinking about it being a first time new car buyer i am seeking advice from veterans esp those who have bought saturns lately fyi i have listed some of the features of the saturn extended warranty plan the car comes with a years mile bumper to bumper warranty plan i extended powertrain coverage covers the cost of repairs to engine transaxle front wheel drive hour roadside assistance program coverage term years miles deductible i say extended warranties are a ripoff high profit item for dealers but what i really want to point out here is that you are not buying k k k you get yr k free so what you are buying is k k k keep that in mind when you look at the cost vs coverage another point is that many car companies routinely fix car problems that are out of warranty why design manufacturing defects that the company owns up to keeping customer happy etc
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article hnbak cmuvm csv cmich edu john foster hnbak cmuvm csv cmich edu writes i find this method much better myself too although i do really hate it when the bolt finally comes loose and the wrench and my hand both come crashing into my face after coming to which is about minutes later i change my clothes because by this time all the oil has drained on me and ice my entire face and suck down about tylenol to ease the pain later in the day i then proceed with refilling the engine oil it s just crazy how i try and change the oil on my cars in one weekend i go through about bottles of tylenol and bags of ice oh that s not so bad every time i try to change the oil i forget to shut off the engine first the hot oil comes out and scalds me blinds me then the engine starts to overheat and while i m screaming in agony and trying to crawl out from under the car i grab the red hot exhaust pipe and get third degree burns on my hands my screams intensify as i finally emerge from under the car and i struggle to my feet in front of the car whereupon the radiator hose ruptures and sprays me with super heated coolant then the engine seizes but not before the cylinder head explodes piercing my flesh with fragments of red hot iron this happens every time i m starting to think i should pay the mechanic instead paying the hospital and the dealer for a new car this gets costly when you change the oil every miles toadface
rec.autos	re info opinions wanted on cars in this article in article c st hf ns nodak edu bell plains nodak edu robert bell writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john f nielsen writes in article fibercom com rrg rtp fibercom com rhonda gaines writes i m in the market for a new car currently i own a mazda mx dx which has served me just fine however i d like to get a door car since i don t relish the thought of moving a carseat around in a door car my criteria are door a c am fm cassette quick acceleration cruise control decent rear seat legroom my husband is a footer it must also be under k preferably closer to the k range which will probably rule out the accord the cars that have caught my eye are toyota corolla toyata camry mazda pontiac grand am pontiac grand prix honda accord and civic if it s roomy enough and still comes in a door model hyundai sonata and maybe even a small oldsmobile although not the achieva all opinions benchmarks recommendations etc are welcome the civic does still come in a door model my wife and i looked quite seriously at the prizm corolla and civic as well as some other cars our impressions all three seemed well built and had the features we wanted these are similar to the features you want except for cruise control and we want a manual transmission and are considering anti lock brakes i also hate automatic seatbelts and we both think having an airbag is a plus in general comfort and performance were both significant some specific s and s are listed below mazda very comfortable and roomy can theoretically get abs on dx model though in practice this is hard to find base price for base model includes numerous little things like tach variable speed wipers rear defroster split folding rear seat more expensive than many other cars listed below honda civic dx gets significantly better mileage than other cars listed here comfortable front seat adjustable seat belt mounting no abs without ex model includes s of other things like a sunroof geo prizm toyota corolla seats not very comfortable to us your mileage may vary adjustable seat belt mounting can get abs without lots of other extras saturn sl was quite comfortable though sl less so motorized attack belts dodge spirit no real outstanding s but seemed generally ok rear seat does not fold down chevy corsica comes with abs standard lower would you buy that car again and safety ratings in consumer reports than first cars above suspension didn t feel as stiff as the others this would be a for some the honda accord and toyota camry were both more expensive than the and in our minds not significantly better we probably gave disproportionately low consideration to the big due a to my wife s family s general dislike of chrysler products b some unimpressive gm products owned by my parents and a housemate of mine c the taurus comes with automatic transmission i find the seat of the tempo very uncomfortable and the escort has attack belts and no air bag we ll probably end up with a i saw a dx with a c and cassette advertised for just under washington post april i think and my local dealer says they can match that price i will probably get the maybe tomorrow the main question in my mind is whether or not i will have to do a factory order or preference order to get one with abs and whether or not the dealership will run the price up a lot if i do so
rec.autos	re saturn extended warranty in article u uicvm uic edu u uicvm uic edu writes i agree with gaia even though the saturn has proved to be a very reliable car so far a little money spent now is worth the peace of mind this is an interesting point some people are not really buying the coverage they are buying peace of mind marketing folks love selling that i suggest that people choose to not engage their minds in peaceless worry rather than buying that peace of mind in my opinion getting the powertrain warranty is enough in my case that s be cause anything that needed repairing in the interior sunroof windows doors etc i could do myself i just didn t want to mess with the engine and such you d be surprised how much the little knick knack stuff can cost what if your a c goes out steering rack don t get me wrong i m against all extended warranties they are a ripoff plus i think the extra years of hour roadside assistance must be worthe so meting i opted for the year plan for extra yrs you realize the first yr k is free warranty that comes with the car thomas
rec.autos	re v v v v vx eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes the subarus all use degree vees in their engines eliot are degree v flat six engines chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	re v v v v vx aas po cwru edu andrew a spencer writes in a previous article finnegan nrlssc navy mil says in article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes the subarus all use degree vees in their engines eliot wouldn t that make them an i or would they really be an henceforth referred to as underscore i think that it is technicaly known as a degree vee configuration could be wrong this is how i ve seen them referred to drew then what is a flat engine chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	production hold on firebird camaro w speed after a tip from gary crum crum fcom cc utah edu i got on the phone with pontiac systems or pontaic customer service or whatever and inquired about a rumoured production hold on the formula firebird and trans am btw talking with the dealer i bought the car from got me nowhere after being routed to a firebird specialist i was able to confirm that this is in fact the case at first there was some problem with the performance axle ratio she wouldn t go into any details so i don t know if there were some shipped that had problems or if production was held up because they simply didn t have the proper parts from the supplier as i say she was pretty vague on that so if anyone else knows anything about this feel free to respond supposedly this problem is now solved second there is a definate shortage of parts that is somehow related to the six speed manual transmission so as of this posting there is a production hold on these cars she claimed part of the delay was not wanting to use inferior quality parts for the car and therefore having to wait for the right high quality parts i m not positive that this applies to the camaro as well but i m guessing it would can anyone else shed some light on this chris s chris silvester any man capable of getting himself elected president chriss sam amgen com should by no means be allowed to do the job chriss netcom com douglas adams the hitchhiker s guide to the galaxy
rec.autos	re lexus and infiniti kchong mothra nts uci edu keith chong writes in article apr msus msus edu w tigger stcloud msus edu writes first off the correct spelling of nissan s luxury automobile division is infiniti not infinity i would also like to clear up the question of what kind of engines power lexus and infiniti automobiles since a person had remarked in earlier posts that most lexus and infiniti models had v engines while at the same time saying that several of each manufacturer used v engines lexus ls v gs v es v sc v sc v the gs and sc have an inline infiniti q v j v g inline i must admit that i cannot remeber for sure here inline is correct i hope this helps bsb keith this is off the subject but don t the numbers in the car names above refair to the engine size in liters i e ls litre engine sc liter sport coupe and q liter similar kinda to bmw and mb nameing deal issa
rec.autos	buy back we were at a dealership today looking at buying a car and the salesman was showing us something he was calling a buy back is that a car that was fleeted and then given back for the new model the next year if that is so how many miles is a good number to have on it and are these types of cars generally a good buy thanks ellen
rec.autos	re borgward question in article r m innnb shelley u washington edu monet carson u washington edu diana smith writes my ex husband i used to own borgwards even tho they were ugly they had names one was humphrey borgward that s pretty good a friend had an audi that he named murphy mark
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante write s you re actually worried about somebody stealing your oil ahhh yes andrew we meet again no not stealing the oil just draining it as to leave me stranded c mon you think a vandal ll do that let me guess you re from hudson ohio that s absolutely ridiculous get out and see the world if i were the vandal and i really hated someone maybe someone who knew something about cars of course i would look for any types of valves i could undo especially special oil drain plugs and radiator petcocks as well as putting bad things in the gas while i would never vandalize someone s car if i were to it would probably be the time bomb approach and i m sure i m not the only one who thinks that way steve
rec.autos	re what is the deal with blue book value of an auto in article c w or dex news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes newton convex com vicki newton writes i am in the process of buying a new auto i haven t decided yet whether i should sell my current car myself or trade it in as part of the new auto purchase i know that the blue book value for the car is an acquaintence has offered to give me blue book value for the car i am just wondering if this is a standard measure for negotiating a resale price or if i can hope to get more money from someone else what exactly is blue book value based on i know that for its year my car has low mileage it is in excellent working condition but does have a few dings on the exterior nothing major do any of these facts alter the fair selling p rice of the car i am not looking to rip anyone off i just naturally want to get the best price for the car thanks a million veek i think the blue book is the nada handbook for used car prices no is the blue book value given the retail or wholesale value the blue book value isn t set in stone though low milage extra addons and stuff like that there can increase the resale price of the car you may want to head on over to the local library or borrow your friends blue book and read up on that sort of stuff i paid under bb retail for my civic in and it was in perfect condition and had only k miles on it the guy was desparate to sell new kid on the way etc but it was a good price remeber both you and the buyer if he has any sort of brains at all are using the blue book so you should pick a fair price chintan amin llama uiuc edu chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area a mileage chart should be available in the book it usually goes by the class of car you own and year usually you will end up adding a few hundred dollars to the retail price or subtracting it consumer reports also has a number you can call and get a quote for your area a friend of mine used it and was quite happy with the service i believe it cost about joe
rec.autos	re help with mitsubishi galant gs transmission in article r j linnac phakt usc edu rmakarem usc edu total stranger writes hi i need your help with a problem i have with a mitsubishi galant gs transmission the car has a speed manual tranmission since the car was bought new while shifting from nd to rd unless i do it slowly and carefully it makes a popping or hitting sound the dealer and mitsubishi customer service reached by an say this is normal for the car is it and about a year ago at kmiles the stick shift handle got stuck while attempting to put it in reverse the shifter would not budge the clutch had no effect the front tires would not budge even when the clutch is fully depressed if the clutch is released the engine would die assuming that some gear was engaged while the shifter was stuck i could not make the car move it acted as if it were in neutral except for dying when clutch is released i finally was able to release the shifter by having someone rock the car back and forth less than an inch while i depressed the clutch and jiggled the shifter the shifter acted normally after that when this happened i took it to the dealer they checked the clutch it was o k they checked the transmission it was o k i had the exact problem a couple of months ago and again last week the dealer says there is nothing they can do because mitsubishi the says they have never heard of the problem and the dealer could not reproduce the problem while they had the car in all three occurances the car was parked head first in a garage and since the front wheels were stuck the car could not be towed to the dealer before releasing the shifter hence temporarily solving the problem and the dealer and mitsubishi refused to send someone to check the car while it was stuck i know there is smething wrong with the transmission shifting from nd to rd and getting stuck at random but i can t get the dealer to fix it i need your help with the mechanical problems and with how to handle mitsubishi all hints and suggestions are greatly appreciated and sorry to bore you with the long post thanks rabih try another dealer sometimes the sophistication of equipment etc is better at one dealer than another you may also find another dealer willing to help you with the problem joe
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots in article apr ericsson se etxmst sta ericsson se writes but why not turn the question around why are automatics so common in the us because some people like them and some people actually need them my guess is that when they tried to couple manuals to the torque rich v s in the sixties the clutches turned out as real killers you had to use both feet to depress and that this has just lived on yeah right real muscle cars had a manual transmission and their clutches aren t that heavy shelby american used plenty of high powered high torque engines and carroll only put autos in his cars because people wanted them blasphemers heretics burn them burn them for defiling a shelby with an auto real cobras and they were the ultimate sports car at the time had big block fords which turned out prodigious amounts of power and torque and none of them had automatics and also an automatic with a v engine can be real fun to drive yeah if you call a gear shift in the middle of a curve fun i personally would love to have a galaxie liter coupe with a fire breathing and four onna floor to go along side my galaxie pillarless hardtop with a fire breathing with three onna tree i love the sound of dual exhaust in the morning there s no comparison between a real american muscle car and a car with a big engine and an automatic imho james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re warning please read in article drutx att com klf druwa att com franklinkl writes in article c srib ah constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes i normally have an unloaded colt delta in my glove box with a loaded magazine handy which is perfectly legal in oklahoma for those times that i m travelling inter state i keep an unloaded s w magnum revolver in the glove box with a speed loader in my pocket which is legal everywhere under federal law illinois state police be hanged carrying a pistol loaded or unloaded in the glove compartment is considered carrying a concealed weapon in colorado and is illegal without a concealed weapons permit unless the law has been changed recently carrying a weapon openly is legal in colorado but concealing it is illegal i read a newspaper account last year where police stopped a car on a traffic infraction and observed a magnum revolver sitting on the seat the driver could not be cited for possessing or carrying the weapon because it was not concealed the article stated that if the gun had been discovered in the glove box it would have been considered a crime carrying in the glove box is not covered i m not sure what i was thinking there it is legal in oklahoma on inter state travel as long as it is legal for you to own at your point of origination and destination the gun is carried in a locked compartment box glove box specifically excluded separate from the ammo it is legal under title chapter section i forget and my copy of the regs is at home of the us code this unfortunately has not prevented the theft by state troopers of a certain state which shall remain nameless to protect the hopelessly stupid under that state s law gee and i thought federal law overrode state law james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re lexus and infiniti don t the numbers in the car names above refair to the engine size in liters i e ls litre engine sc liter sport coupe and q liter similar kinda to bmw and mb nameing deal note bmw doesnt always follow this convention for example i had a liter engine the had a liter
rec.autos	honda mailing list is there a honda mailing list and if so how do i subscribe to it
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast in article tcora b gator pica army mil tcora pica army mil tom coradeschi writes useless road design speed rate discussion deleted actually the roads were designated as safe at when they were built in the s taking into account the kinds of cars then available the number would be much higher today because the cars tires and just about everything else has imprivoved a lot except the drivers thank you travis disclamer the ideas expressed above are in fact the same as my employer since i have none e mail flame at marshatt feserve cc purdue edu
rec.autos	cellular antannas i need to get some info on cellular antennas who are the biggest companies in this market now how much do their antenna cost what are the specs on the antennas gain directivity who is the contact person thank you email at erini enterprise ifp uiuc edu
rec.autos	re locking lugnuts tire rebalance in article apr skcla monsanto com mas skcla monsanto com writes if you put a locking lugnut on your tires do you need to have your tires rebalanced john mas e mail address mas skcla monsanto com i bought a set of are s a few months back and decided to add locks so that i could keep my new rims i haven t had a balance problem yet so i assume that it might be just particular to your type of stock nuts my rims were balanced with new bfg t a s at a speed shop to the finest setting on their bal machine so that helps too zauberer aka travis t
rec.autos	trucking industry which are them main trucking companeies and their locations do you have the name of ac a contact person thanks email at erini enterprise ifp uiuc edu
rec.autos	re where can i get a new york taxi wharfie wrat unisql uucp wrote in article c r a rb srgenprp sr hp com almanb sr hp com bob alman writes hose h o s e dork d o r k oh really here s what you posted earlier in another thread before you thrash others for making simple mistakes or flaunt your wonderful vi skill think about how you make them feel as well as how you look you spelled it right for years you have assaulted others with offensive language etc from the content of many of your posts you appear to have a lot of useful information to share with people but it gets overshadowed when you come across as an abusive smart ass wharfie wrat unisql uucp wrote in article c lobl ddw mentor cc purdue edu marshatt feserve cc purdue edu z auberer writes remember roads in america are not designed for speeds above meaning they would be safe at roads like the autobahn are smoother straiter wider and slightly banked well that s news before the speed limit on texas highways was the speed limit on the new jersey turnpike i was there were no speed limits in nevada or montana east becoming hidden by trees after about ft and continued to the left strait north i wanted to turn north checked the south lane rolled straight s t r a i g h t
rec.autos	re choice of gauges in article c ybo e i vcd hp com dmunroe vcd hp com dave gauge writes if you had free reign to design your own instrument cluster which gauges would you choose to have beyond the basic set i consider the basic set to be tach must have coolant temp or cylinder head temp for air cooled engines must oil pressure must amps i ve seen amps and volts i would go for the volts speedo must you ask fuel i would like to know how much gas i have of course the gauge i have now dosen t tell me s t so i could see not having one in favor of a warning light at say mi others that are nice to have volts maybe this should be in the basic set vacuum boost oooooohhhhh how i would looove to have a vacuum gauge on my dash travis disclamer the ideas expressed above are in fact the same as my employer since i have none e mail flame at marshatt feserve cc purdue edu
rec.autos	re comparing saabs bmw s edwards world std com jonathan edwards writes bmw s suck in the snow i have aggressive snows plus a hundred pounds of sand in the back and i still try to avoid driving in the snow i happily took the saab through blizzard conditions without a worry i would say this is the single design flaw in the bmw for a reasonable sum you can get a bmw with traction control a torque sensing limited slip rear differential since no fwd car including the saab has this kind of front differential since it would exacerbate torque steer a bmw with traction control should have the theoretical advantage on snow of course weight distribution and skinny tires could affect this
rec.autos	bfgoodrich radial t a touring t a tires hi i am looking for tires i would like to hear your experience on the bf goodrich radial t a tires and or the touring t a especially for size p r for radial t a how do they do in snow and wet weather are they quiet tires for touring t a how many miles can they last i believe they are in every way equal better than radial t a am i right chan
rec.autos	re choice of gauges if i m going to drive on a public road then i need a speedometer and an odometer helps for navigation my chevy has a bare minimum engine temp and oil press warning lights and a fuel gauge my vw has tach water temp voltmeter and oil temp gauges if i had a turbo car i d want a vacuum manifold boost gauge an oil pressure gauge is a nice reassuring gauge to look at if my car was air cooled then i would substitute a cyl head temp gauge for the water temp gauge a few years ago i looked at the audi quattro si coupe that bobby unser used to win the pikes peak hill climb the gauge layout from left to right top to bottom was speedometer fuel tranny press temp differential water temp temp big orange tach oil press warning light oil temp boost oil press alex amiller almaden ibm com
rec.autos	re comparing saabs bmw s in article lth oninn r exodus eng sun com tut cairo eng sun com bill bill tuthill writes for a reasonable sum you can get a bmw with traction control a torque sensing limited slip rear differential traction control as far as the optional feature that one buys with cars is not the same thing at all as a torque sensing differential a torque sensing differential is a type of lsd but not all lsd s are torque sensing viscous coupled differentials as opposed to viscous couplings are rotational sensing not torque sensing for that matter so are traction control systems that use abs sensors and pulse braking then there are the older posi tracs and whatever which i am not familiar with the workings eliot
rec.autos	re what car is this in article ericsson se etxmst sta ericsson se markus strobl writes in article r n innk p ctron news ctron com smith ctron com lawrence c smith writes in article apr reed edu rseymour reed edu robert seymour writes in article apr wam umd edu lerxst wam umd edu where s my thing writes it was called a bricklin bricklins were manufactured in the s with engines from ford waitaminnit didn t the bricklin have an pugeot six cylinder or am i confusing it with the delorean i was sure the delorean had a v the delorean had the yucky prv v engine a joint venture between peugout note spelling renault and volvo prv this engine is a mighty boring markus markus what is that we are noting about the spelling that you aren t good at it that peugeot is out of n america what does this mean roland an intrigued peugeot admirer
rec.autos	re dirty diesels i wouldn t want anyone to make kindling out of my front living room wall and then drive their diesel powered m tank into it shooting super hot soot all over my curtains and that freshly made kindling in other words please don t flame me yup i ll have to answer for this one
rec.autos	manual xmission advice needed i have manual transmission speed it difficult to engage gear does xmission oil change improve this situation what do you think about the most favorable xmission oil change period youjip
rec.autos	re choice of gauges dmunroe vcd hp com dave gauge writes b b i can think of a few others but what are your ideas and why dave well in my bmw i like the little light that turns on when you are running out of gas it s a big help if you got a turbo that gauge is a must if i could i d just like all the gauges possible on my car but we can t have everything can we
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article apr telxon mis telxon com joes telxon mis telxon com joe staudt writes newsgroups rec autos path eclipse yktnews watson ibm com newsgate watson ibm com news ans net howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net louie udel news intercon com psinntp telxon mis telxon com joes from joes telxon mis telxon com joe staudt organization telxon corporation references apr engr washington edu apr cs tulane edu r ufk fr usenet ins cwru edu date fri apr gmt lines in article r ufk fr usenet ins cwru edu aas po cwru edu andrew a spencer writes in a previous article finnegan nrlssc navy mil says in article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes the subarus all use degree vees in their engines eliot wouldn t that make them an i or would they really be an henceforth referred to as underscore i think that it is technicaly known as a degree vee configuration could be wrong this is how i ve seen them referred to drew i ve always heard them referred to horizontally opposed joe kinda dull i ve always liked boxer subarus can use this as does porche and bmw twins that s a motorcycle for you with too many wheels jeff goss
rec.autos	re wife wants convertible aas po cwru edu andrew a spencer writes nuet ke pts mot com keith nuetzman x p writes help my wife has informed me that she wants a convertible for her next car jp vllyoak resun com jeff perry writes fyi just last week the pbs show motor week gave the results of what they thought were the best cars for in the convertible category the snip snip does porsche have a patent on the targa name i mean convertible to me means top down which the del sol certainly does not do it has the center that lifts out this is what i would term a targa unless porsches was gonna sue me for doing that i know the rear window rolls down but i still can hardly consider this car to be a convertible drew here we go no of course porsche doesn t have a patent on the targa name if that were the case what would fiat do i suppose that technically my del sol is not a convertible in the literal sense but it certainly classifies as an open topped car in addition the rear section behind the removable top is what makes my car infinately safer than a convertible flame retardant on diane dspalme mke ab com
rec.autos	re information needed yjwon deca cs umn edu youjip won writes hi this is my first time to post on this news group now a days i have stu there is a engine warning signal on the dash board while driving this si i wanna know how the engine warning signal comes is anybody out there who low oil pressure usually could be your oil pump or checked your oil lately mc mchase oneb almanac bc ca mark chase the old frog s almanac home of the almanac unix users group v public access usenet x vancouver island british columbia waffle xenix
rec.autos	re service indicator of a bmw save youself the cash take it from a bmw mechanic idiot lights are for just that buy yourself a ballpoint pen and write it down yourself change your oil every mi and you will be just fine follow the regular service intervals in you r book also
rec.autos	re mercury villager minivan good buy from article r uckinncmf gap caltech edu by wen king cs caltech edu wen king su in article r cr innvar sumax seattleu edu smorris sumax seattleu edu steven a morris writes the villager quest seem like the best of the cravan voyager copies to come along since the mazda mpv the nissan maxima engine paired with the maxima speed auto trans should be an excellent drive train and the rest of the vehicle seems well engineered only the price is controversial hmm the last time i checked villager quest does not have a maxima engine and is very much under powered for its weight yes it does come with the maxima gxe engine mated to the maxima se transmission and it has decent power for a minivan also check again aamir qazi aamir qazi qazi csd csd uwm edu why should i care i d rather watch drying paint
rec.autos	re dealer cheated me with wrong odometer reading need help in article qvrnpinnnid shelley u washington edu yongje hardy u washington edu yong je lim writes here is a story i bought a car about two weeks ago i finally can get hold of the previous owner of the car and got all maintanence history of the car in between and the instrument pannel of the car has been replaced and the odometer also has been reset to zero therefore the true meter reading is the reading before replacement plus current mileage that shows mile difference comparing to the mileage on the odometer disclosure from the dealer never told me anything about that important story i hope that i can return the car with full refund do u think this is possible does anyone have similar experiences any comments will be appreciated thanks this is a tricky situation if the previous owner didn t inform the dealer of the odometer change then the previous owner committed fraud and he may be liable the dealer may also be liable if the previous owner notified the dealer or if the previous owner had the dash replaced at a dealer or if the previous owner had the dash changed legally any records search on the car should turn up the fact that the odometer had been altered if a dealer changes the speedometer he has to report it it goes into the car s service record with the manufacturer and on the title if i remember correctly the dealer told me that the old mileage etc were sent to ford when my t bird s speedo was replaced if the odometer can be set to the old mileage it must be if it can t eg electrically driven odometers then the mileage of the old odometer must be written on a permanent sticker which is affixed to the door frame of the vehicle either way if the change had been done legally then a records search which the dealer almost certainly did should have turned it up call your state s department of transportation public safety motor vehicles or your tag agent to find out for certain what your rights are your state s attorney general will know for certain james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re mr noisy engine in a previous article aas po cwru edu andrew a spencer says in a previous article eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot says in article r vofinn usenet pa dec com tomacj opco enet dec com thunderbirds are go writes nice theory too bad the mr s never came with a four cylinder over liters more like or did they were the nonturbo mr ii s or some such let me clarify i think they both are litres i also understand that anyone using balancing shafts on four cylinders must pay saab a royalty for using their patented design like porsche s i i was already corrected on this and believe i may have been in errror that it is actually mistubishi apologies for butting into the thread c ya drew
rec.autos	opinions on pontiac bonneville i am in the market to buy a used car i am particularly interested in the pontiac bonneville my budget is between thousand would i be able to afford an or what engines were available at this time i know they didn t redesign until the model year how is the reliability of past models i would appreciate any advice or information neil gandler
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article hnbak cmuvm csv cmich edu john foster hnbak cmuvm csv cmich edu writes date wednesday apr edt from john foster hnbak cmuvm csv cmich edu subject re changing oil by self from drew kinglear cs colorado edu drew eckhardt in article pod sour sw oz au pod sour sw oz au paul o donnell wri in qgi einnhs skeena ucs ubc ca yiklam unixg ubc ca yik chong lam writes hello i find this method much better myself too although i do really hate it when the bolt finally comes loose and the wrench and my hand both come crashing into my face after coming to which is about minutes later i change my clothes because by this time all the oil has drained on me and ice my entire face and suck down about tylenol to ease the pain later in the day i then proceed with refilling the engine oil it s just crazy how i try and change the oil on my cars in one weekend i go through about bottles of tylenol and bags of ice john not everyone should be trusted with tools ron stafford texas instruments incorporated p o box ms stafford lobby ti com dallas texas
rec.autos	re is car saftey important s in a previous article jimf centerline com jim frost says jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john f nielsen writes in article r jr m v armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes tcorkum bnr ca trevor corkum writes i figure that mph collisions into brick walls aren t common enough for me to spend that much extra money for protection but there are lots of low speed collisions that do worry me get into an mph accident and you may reconsider i ve been in one and it is really scarey my life is something i value more than a car s looks or handeling consider it insurance it may not happen often but when it does you ll sure be glad you got a safe car granted the tests aren t perfect but i d much rather be in a car that did well in the test than a car that did horribly you raise a valid point but again it s a tradeoff how much money do you want to spend for that kind of protection you could buy a volvo saab or benz and get really good crash protection and other luxuries but you ll pay significantly more for it in my case it s out of the question because all of those cars are beyond my budget i ve been in two major auto accidents both were multiple car the worst was a head on three car collision t intersection and one person ran a stop sign in both cases i was stopped and had no place to go and i saw it coming both times even in high speed head on collisions the most beneficial item you can have is a good old point seatbelt nowadays at least in the us you get an airbag if you get a point belt so presumably you get an added safety benefit there as well that s something i certainly look for and which can be had in inexpensive cars if you really want to add safety to any car simply add a cage to the car they are available and cheap about in the usa add to that four or five or six point belts and you will walk away from collisions that were otherwise not survivable but instead of people spending a little extra money we get legislation that says the gov t must mandate a minimal level of protection for everyone one other significant factor in improving one s own safety is to get some training this will improve your safety more than any other single investment will drive ride defensively and that does not mean you have to be a doddering old stick in the mud people here tend to enthuse about autos more than the average probably in the top th percentile in driving ability but still we sometimes overlook the obvious i ve been to two driving schools and three riding schools for my motorcycle a very worthwhile investment and besides it was a lot of fun too safety is what you make of it just because a carmaker doesn t provide you with an adequate level of protection doesn t mean you have to leave it go at that al bowers dod alfa ducati hobie kottke blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes don t you know that girls can t play guitar mary chapin carpenter
rec.autos	re dirty diesels yeah but i hate to follow them with the exhaust at ground level not all diesels are well maintained either it seems they run for so long that people keep them going long after the top end is worn out
rec.autos	service indicator of a bmw does anyone know how to reset the service indicator of a bmw after changing the oil yourself also i have about miles on my i and so far only one of the five yellow service indicators went out that means i don t need oil service until it reach approximatly miles which doesn t make sense to me any idea ps of cause i did my first oil change at miles derek
rec.autos	re bimmer vs beamer in article andrei namao andrei namao uucp andrei chichak writes back when i was building round tail light s they were bimmers it was only when the red suspendered reganomics generated quiche eating yuppies got into the market that they became beamers and the hood ornaments started disappering yep that s when i noticed it too i stopped replacing the hood badge after the second or third one at each drivers used to flash their headlight at each other in greeting try flashing your headlights at a i driver and see what kind of look you get they usually check their radar detector they think you re alerting them to a cop mark
rec.autos	re old corvettes low insurance in article rjnc sxmg jqh netcom com richard newton ii rjn netcom com writes on a related note does this seem a sane price for a convertible corvette in good condition how does one determine these things my cr used car magazine doesn t list corvettes any net wisdom on what to look for what to avoid thanks in advance rich first of all you might want to join the vettenet vettes chiller compaq com during your search acquisition of the k sounds about right for a wrong engine condition car this means that the car may not have significant investment value but could be an excellent driver and or hobby car you will also want to get a copy of the corvette black book immediately don t leave home to look at vettes without it since you are contemplating spending k you might want to invest a few hours in reading the corvette buyer s guide and purchase noland adams tape how to buy a corvette the tape shows you how to check for damage etc there are many many factors that will affect the value road worthiness and repair expense of your proposed the list is much too long to go into here join the vettenet where there are over current corvette owners many with s vintage vettes that are available to help you the pubs i mentioned above are available from mid america designs and several other corvette parts sources good luck tom hp cruiser
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots in article apr rtsg mot com kissane black berkeley edu john g kissane writes as a matter of interest does anyone know why autos are so popular in the us while here in europe they are rare just wondering in many of our cities there are traffic signals every feet unsynchronised of course well here in ottawa anyway and the roads are so congested that shifting manually is a real pain in the left foot also most canadians are too stupid to learn how to shift manually gee i gotta co ordinate my two feet on the clutch brake and accelerator and i gotta steer shift and operate the signals optional and radio with my two hands duh it can t be done also most north american made cars come with the automatic as standard equipment so why bother with a manual when the car can shift for you for no addition money john kissane motorola ireland ltd o o uucp uunet motcid glas kissanej mahon industrial estate internet kissanej glas rtsg mot com blackrock cork ireland u doug zolmer internet dwjz bnr ca disclaimer my opinions only bell northern research ltd ottawa ontario canada dept n service control point routing services design r
rec.autos	any info on merc e cheek
rec.autos	re the mustang petebre elof iit edu brenta peterson writes jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister writes jmm h virginia edu the bald runner writes i just have got to remind all of you that this is it yes that s right somtime this fall ford the granddaddy of cars will be introducing an all new mega cool way too fast for accord drivers mustang it s supposed to be streamlined looking similar to the mach iii concept car ford came out with around january i can t wait anyone out there hear anything about it recently if everything i ve read is correct ford is doing nothing but re skinning the existing mustang with minor suspension modifications and the pictures i ve seen indicate they didn t do a very good job of it the new mustang is nothing but a re cycle of a year old car gee is it already yes it will still be on the fox program chasis anything that will be differe nt on the new car as far as mechanical s is unknown the suspension will most likely be changed as well as the drive drain from what has been printed on it there is no clear idea of what will be done as some say it will have the modular v and others the current small block just have to wait and see also is far as styling goes from what i seen is good a return to tradition c scoop on the sides and roof line much like a or fastback you know i m a ford fan i must say so i m looking forward to the next mustang i have faith that it will be a fine product more desireable than the camaro is now you know that s mho the differences these days between ford and gm are not so much the quality just the philosophy it used to be quality and philosophy gm is barely catching up but they have more room for improvement that can only be made up in time stss still come off the assembly line with screwed up paint stripes and poor trunk door hood panel alignments it s those year old plants and the latest gm products still come with the standard equipment rattledash tm but like i said they re getting better and making the move in the right direction they beat ford to the market with the camaro firebird but really only in words production of these vehicles will be limited until the end of the year keeping selling prices above msrp for the most part since there are so many twitching camaro fans out there i wouldn t press ford to hurry the mustang since the final wait could be worth it besides no bow tie fanatic is gonna buy the mustang anyway i do not put much stock in the mag rags inside information or even ford rep quotes the taurus was pretty much a surprise when it was finally disclosed in it s entirety inside information had the taurus with a v and rear wheel drive at one point i wouldn t look for a simple re paneled mustang folks you may be cheating yourself if you do there s a lot of potential ford hasn t released a new car without a wheel is in years the mustang project has been brewing for at least right a wheel is could happen those modular v s are out there too in the interest of cafe and competition don t rule those out either your ignorant if you do and there are so many spy shots and artist renderings out there who really knows what it ll look like the mach iii doubt it highly the next mustang will be ford s highest profile car it attracts way more attention than the camaro firebird because it s heritage is more embedded in the general public don t lie to yourself and believe ford will forfeit that i submit that the mustang will be a success enough to elicit defensive remarks from some heavy camaro fans here you know intelligent critical spews like the mustang bites man some of you are already beginning i predict that the mustang and camaro will be comparable performers as usual i predict that the differences will be in subjective areas like looks and feel as usual the camaro is still a huge automobile the mustang will retain its cab rearward styling and short pony car wheelbase the camaro still reaches out to the fighter pilot while the mustang will appeal to the driver the camaro will still sell to the muscle car set while the mustang will continue to sell to the college degreed muscle car set both will be more refined i do think the camaro is there will be no clear winner unless the ford gets the v hp romeo you don t seriously believe that it was designed for the mark viii only do you regards brian bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu i am the engineer i can choose k department of engineering mechanics ohio state university columbus oh
rec.autos	re v v v v vx cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes aas po cwru edu andrew a spencer writes i think that it is technicaly known as a degree vee configuration could be wrong this is how i ve seen them referred to then what is a flat engine flat deg v horizonatlly opposed usually it also equals boxer however i think the term is traditionally reserved for s and s and firing order matters this was talked about here in r a many months back i can t remember the consensus examples ferrari s tr is a flat boxer porsche s is a flat subaru s impreza is a flat regards brian bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu i am the engineer i can choose k department of engineering mechanics ohio state university columbus oh
rec.autos	re changing oil by self sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu steven j orlin writes infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes you re actually worried about somebody stealing your oil ahhh yes andrew we meet again no not stealing the oil just draining it as to leave me stranded c mon you think a vandal ll do that let me guess you re from hudson ohio hey what s this hudson crap actually the only place my car has ever been broken into was in hudson at my in laws in their driveway took my vuarnets and some change damn kids regards brian bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu i am the engineer i can choose k department of engineering mechanics ohio state university columbus oh
rec.autos	re honda mailing list excerpts from netnews rec autos apr honda mailing list by james b atkins prism ga is there a honda mailing list and if so how do i subscribe to it if you look at their magazine ads they may have a phone number to call and you can ask for a catalog or to be on the list etc
rec.autos	re looking for tips for driving cross country r goldstein rdg world std com sez as the subject says i am moving from mass to calif and will be driving mostly on interstate any advice from folks who have done it before plan your gas stops in major city areas to avoid the cent per gallon only gas station for miles and you re an out of towner surcharge prepare your car don t forget things like your fuel air filters if you re loading your car up consider putting your spare on top of your stuff just in case of a flat in my x country trip a tire disintegrated in the california desert it took me minutes to unload all my stuff to get to the tire if you have a hatchback cover all your stuff with a white bedsheet to help keep the stuff and your car cool as well as possibly avoiding theft mcdonalds have good clean bathrooms invest in a cb magnetic roof antenna it may help if you re stranded and you can always ask people for places to stop for food etc many times police like to hang out in the st miles after you enter a new state to catch all the speeders who have escaped the previous state same as above when you enter a mph city zone after hours and hours of mph rural interstate dave davetorok torok nynexst com fax juggle nynex science technology westchester ave white plains ny
rec.autos	weird problem with gm banger transmission i m having an interesting problem with my girlfriend s car before i delve into its innards i thought i d check net wisdom on the subject it s a buick skyhawk i know i know l efi banger auto k miles when i drive tha car long enough to get it hot especially at highways speeds the transmission has this nasty habit of getting stuck in rd gear as a result when you stop for a light the motor stalls putting the car in park and waiting for seconds before restarting sometimes allows the transmission to reset and go back into st otherwise it just stalls when put in drive my thoughts either it the rd gear band is binding and getting stuck when it gets hot not so likely or perhaps the lock up converter is not disengaging properly seems likely the least likely keeping fingers crossed is that some critical vacuum hose has broken cracked and this behaviour is due to lack of vaccuum somewhere as used to happen with old modulator valves my background is that my father owns a service station and i worked there on and off from years of age please feel free to be as technical as you want i d appreciate hearing any tips suggestions offers of free beer grin skoal chris
rec.autos	re auto air conditioning without freon in article apr convex com tobias convex com allen tobias writes better still years ago they demonstrated a cold air system which only used air it was called a rovax the unit worked very well the short coming was the seal technology where is it today actually the company and the product was rovac which stood for rotary air conditioning it used a rotary compressor with what was effectively an air air heat exchanger and worked pretty well the negatives were mostly that it was about less efficient than using freon and noise problems from the high velocity pressure air all of which were solved by the time the company went bankrupt it is still a legal entity in florida but i believe completely dead and there s a heck of an opurtunity to buy up it s patents and restart the operation alan l peterman hm work al qiclab scn rain com it s odd how as i get older the days are longer but the years are shorter
rec.autos	re dirty diesels from nataraja rtsg mot com kumaravel natarajan but they can put out a lot of particulate matter i heard something about legislation being discussed to clean up diesel emissions is there anything in the works to install scrubbers for diesels how about the feasibility of installing them on trucks and cars would it be any different than a catylitic converter i d assume easier since we re removing particulate matter instead of converting gasses let s hear people s opinions the technology cummins is applying to diesels to comply with the newer ca emissions laws involves three things i know of all compliant diesels are turbocharged all use an aftercooler which cools the air which was heated by compression by the turbocharger up to about psi a gismo on the injector pump which senses the pressurized air intake and limits full delivery of fuel while the pressure is low no scrubbers catalytic converters etc are used the path from the turbocharger to the exhaust outlet is kept very free interestingly except for the low pressure fuel limitation power output and mileage are enhanced by these measures one can buy aftermarket turbos and aftercoolers which generate more power lots more power and these are approved by the carb dan hepner
rec.autos	re honda clutch chatter in article hpindda cup hp com jimb hpindda cup hp com james bruder writes from jimb hpindda cup hp com james bruder date fri apr gmt organization hp information networks cupertino ca path eclipse yktnews watson ibm com newsgate watson ibm com news ans net howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com hplextra hpcss hpindda jimb newsgroups rec autos references hpindda cup hp com lines it s nice to know that i m not alone out there when it comes to clutch etc problems on late model hondas if i get a few more supportive responses i will take them to my local honda dealer or maybe send them to the regional rep in southern calif for their input on the problem maybe some group pressure from honda owners can be placed on honda to find a solution such as a retrofit of the clutch or maybe i ll just sell the blasted vehicle and go back to driving my year old pick up which was now fixed having clutch problems and caused me to look for what i thought would be a trouble free solution ya sure not to put down honda or anything the accord has performed flawlessly in all other areas for its miles as it is said out of all this something will develop later folks not alone at all my old accord now in the hands of a sibling has a much better engagement of the clutch even the old civic we keep as a beater feels better in this aspect note that these are cars with kms and kms respectively my prelude blows both of them away in every respect except smooth clutch engagement of course the kawasaki is the best of the bunch but i need more than wheels most of the time the prelude has had a dud clutch from day and after three years and kms is no better best of luck and feel free to add this to your collection jeff goss
rec.autos	re changing brake fluid is it necessary in article apr gmuvax gmu edu lcarr gmuvax gmu edu writes hi i ve been seeing all these articles about changing brake fluid and i am wondering if this is really necessary i have an toyota corolla sr with and i am in the only if you want to stop seriously though every years you should have this done brake fluid absorbs water over time the water becomes steam when the fluid gets hot and steam compresses you ll also have better luck with the longevity of master cylinder calipers and brake lines jeff goss
rec.autos	mbenz bmw question when do the new m benz c class cars come out the new nomenclature that mb has adopted will it only apply to the c class cars or will it also apply to the current s class cars does any one know what will replace the current class since the c class will be smaller and more in line with the current another question is bmw realising a new body style on the current series and series they seem to be a bit dated to me
rec.autos	horizontally opposed boxer engines was v v v v vx in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian j queiser writes there are two crank configurations for the flat the most common one is probably the crank that is very similar to the i crank which flat engines have i style cranks comparing those two engines the i and the flat have no first order shaking forces or rocking moments the i has a second order shaking force while the flat has a second order rocking moment the significant thing about the flat s second order moment is that it can be easily balanced out by adding mass at the ends of the crank the i however requires a counter rotating shaft with mass to balance out the second order forces i am sure that subaru and porsche use the boxer configuration and not the inline crank that you analyzed and compared would you care to re evaluate the other case of a flat four i think that this configuration is perfectly balanced as far as primary secondary forces and couples are concerned i have an article in front of me that says so bottom line the biggest difference between the engines would probably be their intended use the flat is easier to fit under low hoods and in rear compartments for mid or rear mounting the i can be mounted transversely to reduce hood length read cab forward other than that there isn t much fanfare to the differences between them no matter what subaru ads say technology shared with porsche indeed the flat four is also shorter than an inline so even if it is mounted longitudinally it will not take up lots of length and a longitudinal placement is easier for a wheel drive drivetrain i think that subaru s ads hold water in practice their flat fours are noticeably smoother than inline s and completely buzz free though some may not like its peculiar note but as alfa has shown a boxer four can produce a spine tingling scream that only the likes of recent hondas can approach eliot
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots in article pebi zephyr aem umn edu pebi aem umn edu peter a bidian writes there is another advantage with manuals you can start the car by pushing it and shifting into second gear this doesn t work with an automatic peter just for the record read your owner s manual before attempting a push start most manufacturers today do not recommend this i think the catalytic converter is the primary reason unburned gas goes down to it and may ignite when the converter gets into its operating range the best reason for a manual because you like to drive one i find that its much easier to develop lazy habits in an auto trans car remember pay attention out there stupidity behind the wheel has still taken more people to the morgue than drunk driving the problem is that we don t revoke peoples license for stupidity jeff goss
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian j queiser writes flat deg v horizonatlly opposed usually it also equals boxer however i think the term is traditionally reserved for s and s and firing order matters this was talked about here in r a many months back i can t remember the consensus examples ferrari s tr is a flat boxer porsche s is a flat subaru s impreza is a flat regards brian bmws boxer twin no two wheelers here been around since i think the other examples are johnny come latelies i may be wrong so no flames please jeff goss
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian j queiser writes examples ferrari s tr is a flat boxer porsche s is a flat subaru s impreza is a flat i think you got it the other way round the ferrari flat is a degree v and not a true boxer while the subaru and porsche are true boxers don t know about the vw bug though but i suspect that it is also a true boxer eliot
rec.autos	pennsylvania insurance limited tort option hey all i m looking at buying a new car but i m confused about the insurance coverage this also applies to my existing car insurance policy does anyone understand what the limited tort option means will it lower my rates if i opt to have it or will it be more expensive if i opt to have it what does it do for me in layman s terms please is it a good deal or should i ignore it i m not the type to sue anyone at a drop of the hat nor am i the type to report every little ding to the insurance company as a vandalism claim please help thanks in advance george
rec.autos	seeking recommendations for new car purchase folks i am going to be purchasing a new vehicle in the next few months i am trying to hold out until the fall since i have heard that i can be in a better negotiating position to purchase a right when the s are coming out i need something that can comfortably carry adults kids in car seats and pound dogs i can probably afford something in the k k range i am interested in the suv s but am not sure there are any that are decent which i can afford i think the ford explorer got good reviews from consumer reports but is above my range the isuzu rodeo is probably in my price range but i think consumer reports gave it a big thumbs down can anyone offer any suggestions i am hoping for something a little more hip than the traditional wagon and the suvs look like fun we do a lot of camping too veek
rec.autos	for sale in evanston il one car for sale oldsmobile omega four door gray power windows power steering power brakes remote trunk release starts reliably and runs well but needs some work obo for details email or michael a atkinson there is no try there is only dew asbestos nwu edu a libertarian and an nra member
rec.autos	re questions about insurance companies esp geico radar radio association defending airwave rights says that geico insurance not only buy s radar for police but also actively lobbies states to promote making radar detectors illegal i think the buying part is a misuse of money but the radar detector part shows how little they know about the issue no study i am aware of has ever concluded that detectors have a negative impact on safety or that users have a higher average speed incompetence by geico i think so troy wecker troy sequent com sequent computer systems beaverton or in article apr julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes in article mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu david g wonnacott writes i m considering switching to geico insurance but have heard that they do not assign a specific agent for each policy or claim i was worried that this might be a real pain when you make a claim i have also heard that they try to get rid of you if you have an accident i ve read in this group that geico has funded the purchasing of radar guns by police depts i m not sure where
rec.autos	re mr noisy engine in article apr engr washington edu eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot writes in article r vofinn usenet pa dec com tomacj opco enet dec com thunderbirds are go writes are there any mr owners or motor head gurus out there that know why my mr s engine sounds noisy the mr s engine is noisy at the best of times but not even a nice nose it s one of those very ugly noises assuming yours is a non turbo mr the gruffness is characteristic of a large inline that doesn t have balance shafts i guess toyota didn t care about little details like that when they can brag about the mid engine configuration and the flashy styling myself i automatically cross out any car from consideration or recommendation which has an inline larger than liters and no balance shafts it is a good rule of thumb to keep in mind if you ever want a halfway decent engine if the noise really bugs you there is nothing else that you can do except to sell it and get a v eliot eliot is right about liter engine in the second and last generation mr s but the original guy did not indicate the year of his mr if it s a first generation car like my it has liter engine or perhaps same engine with a supercharger if it s the sound he describes is common to any older toyota engine i ever heard i don t know the relevance of his observations about oil changes my simply makes noise not all that annoying mind you but you hear it well when the engine is right behind your left ear mike s
rec.autos	re opinions on pontiac bonneville in article c ullq ds acsu buffalo edu v mb k ubvmsb cc buffalo edu neil b gandler writes i am in the market to buy a used car i am particularly interested in the pontiac bonneville my budget is between thousand would i be able to afford an or what engines were available at this time i know they didn t redesign until the model year how is the reliability of past models i would appreciate any advice or information neil gandler in a word yes bonnevilles prices avg retail sedan d le sedan d se sedan d sse
rec.autos	re the mustang in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian j queiser writes on the subject of the upcoming new mustang i do not put much stock in the mag rags inside information or even ford rep quotes the taurus was pretty much a surprise when it was finally disclosed in it s entirety inside information had the taurus with a v and rear wheel drive at one point i wouldn t look for a simple re paneled mustang folks you may be cheating yourself if you do there s a lot of potential ford hasn t released a new car without a wheel is in years the mustang project has been brewing for at least right a wheel is could happen those modular v s are out there too in the interest of cafe and competition don t rule those out either your ignorant if you do and there are so many spy shots and artist renderings out there who really knows what it ll look like the mach iii doubt it highly the next mustang will be ford s highest profile car it attracts way more attention than the camaro firebird because it s heritage is more embedded in the general public don t lie to yourself and believe ford will forfeit that the car magazines have printed a lot of information about the new mustang and the consensus about what to believe in my car circle is that the suspension pieces and tuning will be almost identical to the current cobra but on a stiffer body structure which will improve its behavior after the mn thunderbird cost and weight debacle ford decided independent rear suspension with rear wheel drive won t be tried again in a volume car the current l v will soldier on for about two years a version of the valve modular v in the mark viii could be offered then ford is spending big money tooling up for l and l v engines which will power most of their cars in the immediate future and therefore probably do not consider volume production of hp v engines a priority undisguised the car looks ok but not nearly as exciting as the new camaro firebird imo i suspect ford will produce their car with higher quality than gm will achieve with the camaro firebird the way gm loses money the temptation to just get them out the door for the sake of positive cash flow will be great once demand really takes off tim gardner
rec.autos	re the mustang jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister writes in article apr virginia edu jmm h virginia edu the blad i just have got to remind all of you that this is it yes that s right somtime this fall ford the granddaddy of cars will be introducing an all new mega cool way too fast for accord drivers mustang it s supposed to be streamlined looking similar to the mach iii concept car ford came out with around january i can t wait anyone out there hear anything about it recently if everything i ve read is correct ford is doing nothing but re skinning the existing mustang with minor suspension modifications and the pictures i ve seen indicate they didn t do a very good job of it the new mustang is nothing but a re cycle of a year old car i just saw a picture of the mustang in popular mechanics what a disappointment after being bombarded with pictures of the mach iii jp
rec.autos	michelin trx tires info needed hi all i have available to me a set of metric wheels came off a mustang or t bird which are wearing nearly bald michelin trx r tires the only place i have found these tires is the tire rack mailorder place for a pop is there a cheaper source or another manufacturer of this size tire thanks for any info please e mail responses and i will post a summary if there is any interest jas jim struglia c mizzou missouri edu c mizzou bitnet
rec.autos	re what car is this in r n innk p ctron news ctron com smith ctron com lawrence c smith writes in article apr reed edu rseymour reed edu robert seymour writes in article apr wam umd edu lerxst wam umd edu where s my thing writes it was called a bricklin bricklins were manufactured in the s with engines from ford waitaminnit didn t the bricklin have an pugeot six cylinder or am i confusing it with the delorean i was sure the delorean had a v the delorean used the peugot renault volvo v in a rear engine configuration the bricklin use some merkin iron in a front engine rear drive configuration steve valin steve sgi com i ve just had my brain washed and i can t do a thing with it
rec.autos	re questions about insurance companies esp geico in article c ui u ao murdoch acc virginia edu jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister writes in article apr julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes in article mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu david g wonnacott writes i m considering switching to geico insurance but have heard that they do not assign a specific agent for each policy or claim i was worried that this might be a real pain when you make a claim i have also heard that they try to get rid of you if you have an accident i ve read in this group that geico has funded the purchasing of radar guns by police depts i m not sure where geico has purchased radar guns in several states i know they have done it here in ct i have also heard horror stories about people that have been insured by geico for years and then had accident and were immediately dropped and once you ve been dropped by any insruance company you become labled a high risk and end up forking out or times what you should be for insurance this must vary from state to state because our old company kemper wanted to drop me keeping my wife or tripple our premium because i had ticket only points for mph over speed limit well i called geico and they insured both my wife and i for less then we were previously paying kemper generally i hate the whole insurance game i realize that it is necessary but the way that a person can get dicked around doesn t make any sense one good thing about geico is that everything can be handled over the phone my suggestion stay where you are or shop around but stay away from geico jeff larry keys csmes ncsl nist gov oo v fahrvergnugen forever the fact that i need to explain it to you indicates that you probably wouldn t understand anyway
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article apr jpl devvax jpl nasa gov nancy hayduke nancy feagans writes ashtrays and cigarette lighters these should be an option nancy j feagans jet propulsion lab nancy jpl devvax jpl nasa gov not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious you forget that the cigarette lighter plug is essential for plugging in radar detectors and lights the ashtrays are also essential because they are great places to keep change and tokens al h
rec.autos	v v v v vx i am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have v engines v i don t know of any v legend mr mr v don t know of any v jaguar xjs please add to the list thanks s ssave ole cdac com
rec.autos	are ford shop manuals good i am planning on buying a repair manual for my ford taurus is the ford shop manual comprehensive enough covering repairs in all aspects of the car how about the haynes manual for tarus please email replies if possible thanks in advance jerry
rec.autos	re is car saftey important in article conradie firga sun ac za conradie firga sun ac za gerrit conradie writes much discussion about economics of safety deleted safety is an important criterium for me when buying a car i won t buy a small car like a civic or whatever great safety handling speed for me seems to me that you would be more dead in a small car than a large car after an accident this is a very simplistic view of safety assuming that you are in a collision less likely with a more agile smaller car then the important factor is how well does the car sacrifice itself to save you this is why a thousand pound f car can hit a wall at and the driver walks out and why everybody dies when a suburban hits a wall at as i recall for the last generation suburban hic numbers as an aside just what is the point of an airbag it seems to me that seatbelts with pretensioners audi et al or a good tight point belt will prevent you every moving far enough to hit the airbag you might be saved from some flyign glass or is an airbag just a lowest common denominator safety device that is of some use in a head on collision when you are wearing no seat belt craig gerrit
rec.autos	need info on bonneville i am a little confused on all of the models of the bonnevilles i have heard of the le se lse sse ssei could someone tell me the differences are far as features or performance i am also curious to know what the book value is for prefereably the model and how much less than book value can you usually get them for in other words how much are they in demand this time of year i have heard that the mid spring early summer is the best time to buy neil gandler
rec.autos	camrys eating clutch master cyls i have both an and an camry each with manual speed transmissions the has about miles on it and the about miles about a year ago i found that the master cylinder on the clutch in the was leaking fluid around the piston seal leading to air in the system and fluid back into the passenger compartment of the car i pulled the plunger and got a rebuild kit new plunger seal etc and thought i had the problem licked much to my surprise the same problem developed several months later this time i looked carefully at the master cylinder to make sure there were no scratches burrs or other obvious causes of the problem i didn t find any ever since i have been periodically feeding the clutch hydraulins additional fluid and bleeding air from the system i knew i would be selling the car and didn t want to go all the way to solving the problem i should add that the clutch is original and that i ve had to adjust the pedal to allow maximum extension of the piston into the master cylinder in order to actuate the clutch my hypothesis is that this means that when fully depressing the clutch pedal the angle of the piston rod attached to the pedal is off the axix of the cylinder thus cocking the piston and seal and perhaps deforming it what do you think of that as an explanation can you suggest a possible fix short of replacing the master cylinder and getting a new clutch put in now the same problem except that the above diagnosis doesn t explain why all of the fluid leaked out by way of the master cylinder into the passenger compartment while i was on vacation for days during which the clutch pedal was not depressed or otherwise caused to distort what can you suggest here many thanks let s hope i don t end up going to click and clack on this bill christens barry cerulean access digex com
rec.autos	auto wax having recently purchased a probe with clear coat paint i would like to give it a good wax job what is the best type of wax to use for this type of finish is paste or liquid better i would be waxing it by hand and buffing it by hand i guess using cheesecloth to buff it anything better you would suggest i ve heard comments here before about things like turtle wax and raindance not being very good so i m wondering what is recommended for a quality finish thanks in advance bill bill heiser heiser acs bu edu heiser world std com boston university boston ma
rec.autos	re mr noisy engine in article apr ultb isc rit edu adn ritvax isc rit edu writes the sound he describes is common to any older toyota engine i ever heard i don t know the relevance of his observations about oil changes my simply makes noise not all that annoying mind you but you hear it well when the engine is right behind your left ear i think those with mr s would describe the engine as sweet if a little loud those with mr s i can t imagine any unbiased person paying it any compliments sounded like my ex dormmate s rusty chevy chevette with the i would want to redline it just for the music with the i would short shift so that it would shut up the new camry features balance shafts i guess since the mr is getting the axe it is too late for them to do anything about this it is no mystery that the turbo mr is only liters the engineers had enough integrity to prevent any further abuses also in europe the mr mk non turbo was also only liters as usual the undiscriminating american market if it is japanese it must be good gets the dogs to be fair we also got the turbo which the europeans did not eliot
rec.autos	re ford probe opinions centered around the gt in article apr ncsu edu chuck eos ncsu edu chuck kesler writes jeremy g mereness zonker cmu edu says can anyone offer any opinions of the ford probe ala how they do in the long run repair records reliability mileage etc some other owners on the ford probe world std com mailing list have commented about this problem but i haven t seen it happen on my month old probe gt i think this may be something that ford has corrected since the initial batch of cars also someone said that ford has issued a service bulletin to inform dealers about how to correct this problem so you may be able to get your dealer to fix it i have had my probe looked at twice by my local dealer where i purchased the car the first time they made this problem worse the second time after advising them of the service bulletin mentioned on my ford probe mailing list they said they didn t know of the bulletin they adjusted the window and made it much better however it now makes a scritch scritch noise on rough roads and still squeals when i open close the window in wet weather anyone elses s do this ford only gives key with the car c mon ford spend an extra few pennies i got two keys with my car but only one remote entry push button thingie but then i bought my with miles and i think it may have been a repossession so i m not surprised something was missing horn buttons behind air bag in spokes and not in center personal preference i am seriously considering following the advice in the owners manual where it describes the procedure to follow if you discover something on your ford that could cause serious injury threaten lives etc something about notifying the national traffic safety group as well as ford those little you ve got to position the fingers perfectly to make it beep buttons are terrible the latter is probably because of the air bag it s pretty much takes up all the space where you d expect to find the horn speaking of the horn i was surprised to find that the probe comes with one of those nice merican sounding horns instead of the japanese sounding kind the previous probes had japanese horns well i guess that s good in a way but in a way it s bad when someone hears that kind of horn they expect to see a big american car they may not associate the sound with a small jap car style car like the probe is tires fling dirt mud onto side of car yeah not very badly but enough to be annoying sometimes the mudflaps help a lot transmission the speed is a must i have always been a speed guy almost every car i ve ever owned has been a speed because i got a good deal on this car with the miles i knowingly overlooked the fact that it has an automatic but it is a pretty high tech automatic it is a fully electronicaly controlled speed with torque converter lockup even with the automatic i m getting mpg on the highway driving but of course driving is illegal so i probably made that sentence up around town the mileage has been around not bad for an automatic of course it doesn t have the control of a speed but since i do a lot of city driving it turns out to be very convenient it s nice to be able to drink a cup of coffee and drive at the same time although that too is illegal here in we like to control your life massachusetts no shake rattle noises when going over bumps potholes still shakes and rattles has been my main gripe i ve gotten them to fix the worst of them but i fear that with the rather harsh ride the car will be a virtual potpouri of rattles when it gets older tires vr goodyear eagles left hoping for k on my probe gl i got about k out of the original goodyears and had driven the replacement tires bridgestone k miles when i tradeed the car the vr firestones on my probe look like they re designed for performance ie rather wide shallow tread etc so they probably won t last as long but the car handles very very very well it sticks to the road like glue even on a rough surface interior is very very nice too very pleasing to the eye and ergonomically sound definitely ford mazda did a very very nice job on this one the car has a much more expensive than it actually is look and feel to it yes this car s stiff suspension isn t for everyone i personally like it but if you find it a little harsh but otherwise like the car i d strongly suggest looking into the mx having driven an probe for years i find the suspension interesting the car actually drives much better than the it is a very firm ride and you definitely know about each and every bump in the road yet the car remains very civilized on even the bumpiest roads you hear and feel the bumps yet the car retains its posture very well if you have passengers by all means bring them along too they ll find that they have no room in the back and you ll find that the car rides differently if that s better is up to you well i wouldn t encourage passenger carrying in the probe unless the person in the front seat likes to sit with his knees to the dash as mentioned in the consumer reports write ups consider the back seat as a parcel shelf no biggie to me though if it had been i d not have bought the car but it s definitely not a family car also there s a lot of glass around you which i wasn t expecting the temperature inside the car gets pretty hot in the summer a c is a must on any probe from the in particular sends out a real blast of cool air when the ac is on max that lots of glass you mentioned is what gives the car the very good visibility reports you see in all the write ups most sports sporty cars don t have that good visibility i ve heard that the exhaust system has trouble but mine works fine i haven t heard about this one i know that some of the very early probes and maybe had problems with prematurely rusting mufflers which the complaints i ve heard re exhaust system on s have been on the gt of course being a different engine that is a differeent exhaust system i was one of those with an who qualified for the free replacement since i had already replaced the muffler when i received the notice i was am due a refund from ford i applied in february and am still waiting gave me a free rental car for the day and a half that i was without my car i was quite happy with the way they handled especially considering that i was expecting the worst from them yes i was pretty amazed when i had my car in for some touch up adjustments this past week and they had to keep it overnight too busy for them to get to it and they offered to pay for a rental they did make me pay for taxes and insurance though from what i ve heard it sounds like ford mazda had some qc problems with the probe and probably mx when they first went into production but i think these problems have mostly been corrected at this point that s almost always to be expected with a completely new car like this though i have to agree that they seem to have some qc problesm but i seriously feel the car design is sound and expect it to do very well bill heiser heiser acs bu edu heiser world std com boston university boston ma
rec.autos	re water in trunk of probe in article apr news arc nasa gov chung pioneer arc nasa gov po sum chung acf writes tommy szeto writes water gradually builds up in the trunk of my friend s ford probe every once in a while we would have to remove the spare and scoop out the water under the plywood carpet cover on the trunk i would guess this usually i noticed this is my probe also when recently cleaning out the back i think the water is coming up through some rubber stoppered holes beneath the spare mine looked slightly worn and there was no water or water damage i have the same problem with my probe the water is definitely not comming up from the rubber stoppered hole beneath the spare i have to remove the rubber stopper to drain the water seems like a common problem with probe there is a known problem with the seals on the taillights of probes complain loudly to your dealer and get them to install new seals it is a known problem present on most if not all pre probes so you shouldn t have to pay them to fix it in my case they fixed it on my extended warranty i just had to pay a deductable the work was valued at something like with labor and parts having removed the tail lamps myself on other occasions i think their estimate was fair bill heiser heiser acs bu edu heiser world std com boston university boston ma
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast in article apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article c r y f d mentor cc purdue edu marshatt feserve cc purdue edu zauberer writes in article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes remember roads in america are not designed for speeds above meaning they would be safe at roads like the autobahn are smoother straiter wider and slightly banked well that s news before the speed limit on texas highways was the speed limit on the new jersey turnpike i was there were no speed limits in nevada or montana i guess i wasn t clear enough here i said the roads were designed for speeds of or so and still be safe the current will add a saftey margin actually the roads were designated as safe at when they were built in the s taking into account the kinds of cars then available the number would be much higher today because the cars tires and just about everything else has imprivoved a lot i believe the interstates were origionally funded as part of a national defense plan etc the requirements were to move heavy army trucks at mph still its amazing in germany you can have cars traveling mph and mph on the same to lane road around washington dc they can t keep traffic flowing at dirk
rec.autos	re old corvettes low insurance and corvette prices in article rjnc sxmg jqh netcom com rjn netcom com richard newton ii writes in article apr ns cc lehigh edu swr ns cc lehigh edu scott warren rosander writes in article c csux fn news cso uiuc edu gdhg uxa cso uiuc edu george hei nz writes after too many years of school i m finally graduating and getting a real job of course i am trying to make plans of how to spend all this extra money right now i have an accord a good car but not real sporty i was thinking of selling it in about two years and dropping around k on a sports car of some kind after thinking about it i may have a better idea i ll keep the accord until it drops and buy the car i ve always wanted a corvette stingray my reasoning is that accord corvette is less than what i would spend anyway basically i m thinking of a late s early s for around k my question is what are good years to consider for reliability looks horsepower in that order believe it or not horsepower is not a main concern if i want to go fast i get on my motorcycle and what are good prices to vettes had the same basic chassis add aluminum weaker rear axle housing all these years used same brakes similar springs etc late s was a bad year for gm reliability catastrophic converter was added in cheapest corvette to low end about k tops out about k except for those morooons that think there indy th aniversity vette is special these guys have been known to ask k i don t think they get it best buy convertables i got my for k needs body work but i m willing parts for all are readily avail at swap meets and mail order etc v reliability looks independant suspension wheel disk and all under k and they thought a miata was a good deal also what would insurance look like i m male single i might wait until i m to get the car lower insurance would the fact that i mainly drive the other car lower it is there some type of classic car or rarely driven insurance class for driving it under k miles per year my dad has a vette and its on what you say classic insurance basically what that means is that it has restricted amount of driving time which basically means it cant be used as an every day car and would probably suit your needs for limited mileage my origional inquires to my insurance agent i can drive my convertable for miles or less per year i must keep it in a locked garage and it will cost me of the stated value per year does this sound right i ve also been looking at vettes recently and found a convertible that i like at a dealer i currently own an ford escort gt which is insured through state farm i called em up and asked about the rates if i sell the escort the vette insurance is per months if i keep the escort the vette insurance is per months the escort s insurance goes down by to approx per months i m male and have a good driver discount another variable would be where you live best bet is to just call up some insurance brokers and get a quote state farm says they base the price on the fair market value of the car which is determined by an outside apprasier they look in the newspaper and call up dealers to find out what the going rate is and adjust it for the condition of the car to get the values above they went on the selling price of the car the dealer s asking price is i need to do research to find out if this is reasonable in any case i told state farm the value was k get an appraiser to look at the car he will check serial numbers and look for origional equipe depending on what mods have been done the car could be worth only k problems like wrong engine trans wrong paint type vetts used lacquer an modification would reduce tthe value but your looking for a car to drive right this sounds like a ball park price for a small block cu in manual no air car a would put it closer to k get it appraised for insurance purposes also
rec.autos	re geico i m glad this forum came up i ve been pricing insurance lately and had considered geico but no more any company with practices like theirs can e s a d i ll stay with liberty mutual steve nicholas wells computer center georgia state university oprsfnx gsusgi gsu edu a risk is not a risk until it is taken
rec.autos	v probably the most famous v is the one cadillac made from about to they had to scale down then because the great depression really put the crimp on luxury cars it had cubic inches with over two hundred horse power they don t make them like they used to there were others though packard had one until about whe it down sized to their legendary twin six their mainstay for the next twenty years lincoln and pierce arrow might have also had one but i am not two sure most luxury and semi luxury cars of this era at least experimented with v if they did not actually produce them there was actually a cylinder war among the big three to see who could produce the biggest engine big m standard disclaimer applies because i can t think of anything wittier
rec.autos	review ford taurus sho review of ford taurus sho by gene kim background last week i bought a ford taurus sho moving up from driving a toyota celica st and a oldsmobile cutlass i have been interested in buying a sho for about five months and have been combing the classifieds in denver and chicago every week i bought a remarkably clean maroon red sho with k miles on it for as far as i can tell this is about under blue book and i still have another miles before the extended service plan runs out as one should with any pre shos i made sure that the car was already refit with the upgraded clutch and pressure plate as well as having been recalled for upgraded rotors and seatbelt attachments however my sho does not have the newer rod shifter i understand i can get this for from any ford service center in addition the car received the full tune up at k miles receiving new platinum plugs and valve adjustment for a car with k miles on it the car was virtually immaculate the clearcoat paint job was devoid of any large chips or dents although the front air dam molding was covered with lots of small scratches not surprising since most of the miles were spent on the highway having driven a smaller two door coupe for so long i was a bit concerned about whether i could get used to driving a larger car to my surprise the size of the car doesn t bother me at all it seems just as nimble as my celica no comparisons with my oldsmobile visibility from the driver s seat is excellent helped mostly by of the small the quarter windows aft of the back seat door windows and in front of the c pillar and rear window parallel parking is a bit more difficult but other than that i love the size in fact i m starting to appreciate the large trunk as i pack up for a hour drive to washington dc for the summer more on the ride later in this review engine as with anyone even slightly interested in shos i was very interested in the valve l yamaha shogun engine i was not disappointed base performance of the engine under rpms is good you can even do reasonable launches from second gear although i don t make a practice of this the engine revs smoothly and eagerly tooling around town does not require many shifts this is good since the shifter is definitely one of the weakest points of the car more on this later while the performance of the engine under rpms may be unremarkable it undergoes a jekyll hyde transformation once you hit higher revs at rpms a butterfly valve opens and you can literally hear and feel the geometry of the engine changing as twelve more valves open up the engine soars to its rpm redline and you are treated to in my opinion the sweetest sounding v around the engine inexplicably sounds overjoyed to be at rpm i ve noticed that when i drive around town i constantly watch the tach to see how far below rpm i am to go from rpm to you may have to punch the accelerator while torque is more than adequate it doesn t come fully online until those other valves are used transmission when car and driver first reviewed the car in they marvelled at how ford had put such a wimpy clutch and balky shifter into the car i remember driving a friend s parent s sho in and remember thinking about whether i had the leg strength to drive the car in traffic the clutch was that stiff that was back then the entire clutch assembly on my sho has been replaced under a ford recall in the clutch on the sho feels no stiffer than the one on my toyota celica in fact the friction point seems a bit larger and more forgiving when playing with the shifter with the car parked the shifter felt very reasonable the and gates were where you d expect it to be and the shifting action was smooth on the road it s much the same but you have to shift slowly make no mistake it s a clumsy shifter when hurrying shifts like when i was initially trying to impress friends i consistently miss the shift often grope clumsily for the shift and sometimes even muff the shift i find this pretty amazing in a car like this it also took me several days to realize that you get the smoothest shifts when you take your time seems obvious but compared to my toyota and my friend s honda this seems atrocious and clumsy someone on rec autos noted that crxs should blow shos off the line because of the incredibly clumsy shifter i now shift much more sedately and the shifter seems more reasonable when you play within these bounds the shifter works smoothly with no surprises i don t know whether the rod shifter upgrade would help at all along these same lines i initially had trouble shifting gears smoothly again slowing down the shifts and taking more care to match revs when letting out the clutch helped immensely this took several days for me to get the hang of i think some of my problems were because i ve never had a car with enough power to balk at bad shifts in higher gears occasionally i have trouble shifting into reverse the shifter refuses to enter the gate and i often grind the synchros trying to get it into gear i ll be watching this carefully in the next couple of months a quirk when i upshift and the engine drops back to rpm i hear a whirring and then a grinding noise coming from the the engine compartment not terribly loud but the passenger can definitely hear it i asked about it when i was looking at the car as do all my passengers apparently this is a definitely a sho sound and is the gearbox apparently called gear rollover replies to my queries on rec autos are at the end of this review exterior as i mentioned before i am astounded by how well the body of this sho has stood up paint chipping on the front bumper and grille are virtually non existent looking at how older tauri sometimes don t age so gracefully i wonder what the guys at ford did differently to the sho bodies the body in my opinion is extremely attractive with matching color body moldings than the stock tauri for some odd reason the sho seems different enough from vanilla tauri to get stares at stoplights of course this could be my overactive imagination shos get fog lights a more open grille a completely monochromatic exterior and a deeper ground skirt in the back with sho stenciled in relief i ve seen a couple shos whose owners have colored these in with florescent colors or in black yuck i don t think the car is flashy i like it that way i feel almost anonymous with all those tauri out there but different and distinctive enough to those of us who care interior the interior is what really makes me feel like i don t deserve the car the seats are grey leather the steering wheel and shifter are covered with black leather and the entire instrument panel is done in a black grey metallic scheme the instrumentation is stock taurus except for the mph speedo and rpm tach you get a center console with two cupholders a large compartment under the radio great for a cd player an armrest that contains yet another compartment three appropriately sized coin holders for tollways i think and a compartment for holding cassette tapes there s map holders in the doors and an oddly small glove compartment i spilled a whole can of coke in the cupholder and was delighted to find that the entire rubber holder can be removed and washed in a sink hey i m really impressed with the ergonomics and thoughtfulness that went into its design and it s a before the interior was upgraded the backseat is bigger than any car i ve had why do they need so much space no smart ass comments please the driver and passenger seat have lumbar and side bolsters from what i hear it s not uncommon for the side bolsters to show wear mine is no exception the left side bolster on the driver s has cracked and i m not convinced the right bolster is inflating all the way a big surprise for me i forgot that shos don t have a normal hand parking brake instead they have the regular parking brake that you press with your left foot too bad again i m getting used to it but it seems a bit anachronistic to me ride the suspension is nice and stiff too stiff it s stiffer than any car i ve had a friend s new toyota celica st seems tauter and is still able to soak up bumps better the sho seems stiffer with less ability to soak up bumps driving over railroad tracks is a noisy and jarring affair on the other hand taking turns feels wonderful because the body is so rigid and doesn t flex at all i listened for that before i bought the car on the highway the ride is great when i drove the car from chicago back to purdue i had trouble keeping under mph let alone from trying to see what mph really feels like it s a relatively quiet ride but the sunroof rattles i ve tried to find out what exactly makes all the noise up there but it seems to be the window that rests on the rails no easy way to get rid of it i think over the past three days i ve oscillated between thinking the suspension is wonderful and perfect and thinking that the ride is way too rough not for me mind you but i wonder whether i would advise my dad to buy one for himself but i ve discovered as with the shifter if you take your time with shifts you ll have no reason to complain let me explain the ride is worst when turning and applying lots of power to the wheels i feel the wheels scrabbling for traction and torque steer making the car skitter left and right after i understood this i avoid the limits of traction and i m a happy camper again it s not body rigidity but the composure of the car as if matching the suspension the steering feel is quite heavy my first impression of driving my sho was how hard you had to turn the wheel at highway speeds it tracks straight as an arrow but when driving around a parking lot the high effort steering didn t seem so useful however it s reasonable but it doesn t communicate the road to the driver as well as a ford probe gt imho it s much better than the steering on my celica st i wonder how bad this car is during winter miscellaneous notes gripes the rattles from the sunroof is intermittent some days it rattles loudly other days i look up wondering where all the noise went activating the sunroof is sometimes very noisy loud squealing as it retracts on its rails i wonder if there is a quick fix for this again other days it completely disappears function of humidity once i made the connection between the sometimes awful feeling suspension and torque steer i ve never complained about ride i wish the seats had more support under the thighs also i wish the side bolsters would close more tightly i hear that tires for this car can get really expensive i currently have goodyear gt s that cost the previous owner for four i used to hate the ford stereo systems whose idea was it to use a volume paddle now to my amazement i don t really mind and sometimes think it s an okay idea pretty ridiculous though getting up to rpm sometimes seems to be a chore but this is no big deal there is more than enough torque down low i often goof up the shifting when driving with friends it took me a couple of days before i could really shift smoothly from nd to rd gear hard to believe isn t it my car has almost miles on it my parents noted that it is almost impossible to find a low mileage sho astute observation imho i wonder how long i can make my sho last i just bought a book titled drive it forever for tips in this department the goofy parking brake pedal still throws me for a loop i once parked the car in gear and then accidentally let out the clutch after i started it the car jolted forward and bounced off the car in front of me no paint damage at all but starting the car is a whole new ritual for me with that fangled pedal also i began to wonder how strong that brake really is today i backed out of parking spot today and started to drive away before i noticed the glowing brake light oops the driver s power window creaks when closed all the way the same thing happens in my parents mercury sable oddly all the other windows work smoothly likes i m liking the interior amenities more and more each day the cupholders are great i didn t expect to use the keyless entry buttons so much but it really is handy you can lock all the doors by pressing the and buttons together neat and you can never lock yourself out of the car i really feel like i don t deserve this car i really can t believe that i could afford it i got this car ten years ahead of schedule i love this car so much that i ve been telling my parents to look into buying one i love this car so much that i wrote this k file i meant to write a couple of lines and ended up with this if there were a j d powers survey for used car owners i would have an opportunity to express my incredible satisfaction of owning this car i don t like thinking about getting another car but at this point in time i m sure i d buy another sho for under you can t beat it next time with an airbag and abs though insurance wise this car is also a big win i pay the same premiums as on my toyota celica despite that it has nearly twice the horsepower other odds and ends much to my amazement there is no sho mailing list anywhere maybe because the sho registry publication has filled this void i haven t joined yet but i ve noticed that queries about shos still appear on rec autos about once a month owners of shos are always quick to respond and are very vocal fans of the cars maybe some of the most vocal on rec autos i ve put together the responses to my questions about the cars as well as other posts with useful information on these cars i ll be posting this in the form of a faq soon if anyone is interested in starting a mailing list please speak up i don t know if i have the resources here at purdue to start one but maybe someone out there does gene kim genek mentor cc purdue edu
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article apr telxon mis telxon com joes telxon mis telxon com joe staudt writes v legend mr mr honda prelude nope cylinder v don t know of any you didn t try very hard lexus infinty several of each i wasn t aware that there was another infiniti with a v besides the q bmw one model series several the i i i i liter and liter v mercedes one or two models one or two there s at least one v for every platform except the compact e s class sel sel w e e and roadster sl acura one model can t remember the name right now acura doesn t have any v cars at the moment v jaguar xjs bmw il mercedes xxxsl sl and sel the other sls sl and sl are v and inline six
rec.autos	last of the v interceptors does anyone know what kind of car mad max used in road warrior they called it the last of the v interceptors i couldnt tell what it was it was so chopped up thanks
rec.autos	re water in trunk of probe in article r r binnfja tamsun tamu edu jlong emcnext tamu edu james long writes in article r crn g transfer stratus com tszeto sneezy ts stratus com tommy szeto writes water gradually builds up in the trunk of my friend s ford probe every once in a while we would have to remove the spare and scoop out the water under the plywood carpet cover on the trunk i would guess this usually happens after a good thunder storm a few qs is this a common problem where are the drain holes located for the hatch i noticed this is my probe also when recently cleaning out the back i think the water is coming up through some rubber stoppered holes beneath the spare mine looked slightly worn and there was no water or water damage above the level of the spare area i have the same problem with my probe the water is definitely not comming up from the rubber stoppered hole beneath the spare i have to remove the rubber stopper to drain the water seems like a common problem with probe po sum chung email chung ames arc nasa gov
rec.autos	re is car saftey important in article apr bnr ca tcorkum bnr ca trevor corkum writes i was recently thumbing through the lemon aid new car guide what i found was a car would be given a recommended under the picture while a few sentences later noting how a driver and passenger were virtually guaranteed to be killed in a front end collision the most highly recommended small car the civic has the worst crash rating of all of the small cars listed there were many such cases of great vehicles where you wouldn t survive an accident is it only me or is safety not one of the most important factors when buying a car imho the best way to reduce risk when operating a vehicle is being able to avoid hazards and for that reason my preferred vehicle is a motorcycle when i do use a four wheeler my primary reasons are it will keep me dry it will keep me warm or it will carry more cargo if the four wheeler has as much collision protection as the average motorcycle then it has enough form me how do you define safe one definition of safe is without risk is chas dod oh how can you be in two places at once when you re not anywhere at all firesign theatre
rec.autos	re the mustang the current l v will soldier on for about two years a version of the valve modular v in the mark viii could be offered then how unfortunate for anyone who loves the simplicity with which and fords and and chevys can be built up still it will provide a needed punch for the ford to stay up with the new firebird camaros it wouldn t surprise me if ford called the engine a litre in the mustang we all know that the current is really litres anyway undisguised the car looks ok but not nearly as exciting as the new camaro firebird imo i must agree i don t think i ve seen anything as impressive looking as the new firebird since my friend back home sold his formula firebird for a paltry without even telling me the bastard george howell george howell goucher wb ffv ampr org
rec.autos	broncos does anybody have any information on the second generation broncos i m not talking about bronco ii s i m referring to the broncos that began production in based on the f chassis i believe i need to know what to look for can the tops be removed from all models how easily can that be done also what kind of price range should i be looking at i e what is blue book i m in college right now and would like a jeep unfortunately i ve got a bit of a ride to school and i need to carry a lot of junk to and from the dormitory in the spring fall i think that the bronco with the removable fiberglass would be a better read bigger choice than a cj or cj even better anybody in the maryland virginia area interested in selling one george howell george howell goucher wb ffv ampr org
rec.autos	re mr noisy engine yeah it seems toyota has always had a problem with those s and sound i know the celicas with em were pretty noisey and the mr s were no exception now about large displacement s with bad noise i have a grand am h o quad and it sounds really good almost like a larger now toyota is coming out with an all new celica next year and the mr well who knows later chris
rec.autos	re impala ss going into production in apr ucsu colorado edu dunnjj ucsu colorado edu dunn jonathan james writes uznerk mcl ucsb edu andrew krenz writes i personally like the looks of the impala ss the caprice was definately weird looking until this year when they made the rear wheel openings look more like a normal car but the impala impresses me gm can t exactly shove the lt in everything they make you know only the bigger stuff i d like to see it next in a series pickup that would be a hot setup what about in a full size blazer as well would this engine have the gobs of torque necessary for off roading if so this would be even better than the syclone well an lt blazer wouldn t come close to a gmc typhoon in speed i think its too heavy as it is right now the normal hp engine has plenty of power for a full size blazer of course i m not saying gm shouldn t put the lt in it it seems like they have a real winner with that engine why spend so much more money into getting a valve dohc v when you can take an lt it even seems to get pretty good gas mpg for a that is talking about impala ss will this be in the door caprice body i m just curious if chevy is trying to resurrect their door muscle cars or to compete with the european super sedans yeah it s a flat black lowered door caprice riding on aluminum rims and eagle gs c tires the rest of the car is basically a caprice ltz read plush police package with horsepower i heard that chevy is resurrecting the monte carlo but that s going to get their dohc v and not the lt jon dunn andrew krenz uznerk mcl ucsb edu krenz engrhub ucsb edu
rec.autos	re legal car buying problems in article c sydn c v megatest com jao megatest com john oswalt writes however if you agree some terms and then when about to sign the dealer slips you a contract with different terms and leads you to believe that it embodies the terms you verbally agreed to that is fraud there is no day limit on restitution for fraud you may have to sue and win to get out of this you will almost certainly have to threaten to sue on the other hand remember the old adage that a verbal agreement isn t worth the paper it s printed on once you sign you are going to have one hell of a time proving fraud based on a comparison to what you thought you were going to sign being in the right is one thing proving it is another brian g gordon briang sun com briang netcom com b gordon on genie on compuserve bgordon on aol
rec.autos	vw jetta gli help i am considering the purchse of a vw jetta gli with k miles on it i recently found out that there are two versions of the gli v and v i know of three differences between the two cars that both carry the same name the v version has more horsepower wheel discs and a standard sunroof oops that s the difference between the gli v and the regular gl so in addition to the engine what other differences exist between the two models of the jetta gli more importantly how can i tell which version this one is there are no badges that said v so i am inclined to think that is the v version assuming this one the one i looked at is the v version is there a valid reason to buy it instead of a comparably equipped gl which would cost less of course i would love to get the v version but money talks please email any responses thank you peter volpe pv albnyvms bitnet
rec.autos	question to nissan zx owners gurus esp models i purchased a used nissan zx non turbo last year i had a question on gear rpm ratios right now in th mph i m at rpms mph i m at about rpms is this about the norm i m an auto neophyte so i m just wondering if these are the proper ranges somehow the rpm figures seem high a friend of mine just told me he can hit mph in rd on his chevy beretta l v also anyone know the top speed attainable redline for this model z not that i would try it but it would be an interesting factoid thanx derek fire and love the two extremes wojciech ossek nrl navy mil that we live between fire and love there s more to life than surfing or snowboarding the eye can see guardian ridin the wave
rec.autos	re the mustang they beat ford to the market with the camaro firebird but really only in words production of these vehicles will be limited until the end of the year keeping selling prices above msrp for the most part since there are so many twitching camaro fans out there drivel i received delivery of my trans am weeks after i ordered promised weeks and paid over dealer invoice which is a discount off of msrp i only have about miles on it but so far no problems and it seems very well put together by the way first year production will be about cars dealers would like you to think there is a shortage but considering they only sold about f bodies last year and the new model was introduced mid year that is not going to create a shortage gm planning on ramping to about f bodies next year according to a wsj article several people have mentioned seeing a photo of the mustang in popular mechanics i saw a photo of it in motor trend january issue p direct side on view although they described it as a seriously handsome car with broad shoulders i thought it looked pretty boring in that view roofline reminded me of a toyota celica yuch description of mechanicals same as has been reported from the pm article terry quinn germantown hills il tquinn heartland bradley edu from compuserve internet tquinn heartland bradley edu
rec.autos	re what car is this you guys are correct the bricklin was produced in canada the national museum of science and technology here in ottawa has one and sometimes they put it on display most of the time it stays in storage because the museum doesn t have much room it s a big deal for a car to be canadian and that s why they have it if anybody s a fan they also have a nice green riviera that looks like it just came out of the showroom mike harker ottawa ontario canada voice
rec.autos	re questions about insurance companies esp geico wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes in article mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu david g wonnacott writes i m considering switching to geico insurance but have heard that they do not assign a specific agent for each policy or claim i was worried that this might be a real pain when you make a claim i have also heard that they try to get rid of you if you have an accident i ve read in this group that geico has funded the purchasing of radar guns by police depts i m not sure where maryland and other states to the original poster read the last issues of car and driver about this it s interesting and should be illegal chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	re geico goldberg oasys dt navy mil mark goldberg writes in rec autos jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister writes my suggestion stay where you are or shop around but stay away from geico i strongly agree with jeff here s my horror story many years back i switched to geico from state farm to save some i have a relatively new sports car for which we covered with liability collision and comprehensive with this make of car new models came out in january not september like other makes the car was purchased in august of that year we also had a much older clunker for which we only wanted liability low and behold a vandal slashed the roof of the sports car and we put in a claim this was in october still the current model year for the car a new top with installation was we had deductible so we should have gotten you had to go to geico s local office to have an adjuster see the car unlike state farm that sent the adjusters to the shop or your place he said since the car is now one year old we ll depreciate the top by so you ll get on the claim this will also count as an accident against you so your rate may increase the hassle continued then we got a letter from geico saying claim denied your policy on this car doesn t cover this i then learned that their records had the full coverage collision etc on our old clunker and only had liability for this new car they mixed up our cars in their records i fixed the top myself with some carpet thread and dropped my claim they still charged me with an accident i cancelled my policy and switched to another company the coup de gras came when they sent me a bill for an additional balance due for the difference in collision comprehensive cost between my sports car and my clunker i returned the bill unpaid with a nastygram plus explicity directions to perform recto cranial insertion haven t heard from them since everyone s entitled to my opinion goldberg oasys dt navy mil imagination is more important than knowledge albert einstein good for you i am convinced that someone should start a boycott against geico any takers chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	looking for low lease rate on toyota previa what s the best lease quote that anyone has seen on a toyota previa dx or dx all trac for a two year lease if you know where i can get a better rate than month please contact me with the name and phone of the dealership will estes internet westes netcom com
rec.autos	toyota coralla fx for sale toyota corolla fx am fm radio nothing else low mileage i ride my bike to work dark blue good condition only i am leaving the country for a year and must sell this great city car call renee fecteau leave message do not email to this account
rec.autos	bmw i i looked at that bimmer yesterday it s an has about kmi according to owner odometer stopped working at kmi drivess well sounds good body is ok he wants i liked the car despite it s auto tranny but my wife will be a primary driver on this one and she wants auto the radio does not work untill the car warms up and you honk the horn the a c seems to have a leak the sunroof is sticky but operational odometer does not work as mentioned before idle is a bit bouncy going from rpm to rpm wipers are slow that s teh gripes the owner says that he changed radiator alternator rotors and calipers exhaust the biggest problem is that the owner is a shifty sob telling strange stories i hate that i would never buy from a persom like that except how often you see a descent i for that amount of money he also said that although i could bring a mechanicin he wouldn t let me check the car by taking it to a garage suspicious and who knows what milage is on it so let me know what to check for given there s practically no rust i know there was an article on i in r d a few years back anybody remembers what issue mike s
rec.autos	compilation of problems chevy caprice my caprice classic with k miles has finally reached the threshold of total number of mechanical problems that i am forced to post anyone out there who might be able to give me some pointers on one or more of the below please e mail or post when making turns especially when accelerating there is usually a loud thunk from the rear of of the car sounds like it could be the differential what could cause this is the differential going bad i recently had the differential fluid changed and it did have tiny metal bits in it and no the sound is not something rolling around in the trunk on starting the car i get blue oil smoke from the exhaust for seconds exhaust valves going bad worn rings anyone know whether the valves on the tbi engine can be lapped brakes more pedal travel than i feel comfortable with but master cylinder is full and fluid is relatively clear pedal does not slowly sink to the floor when held down pedal does not feel spongey but i suppose that bleeding the brakes might help could anything else cause this tranny tranny problems seem to be slowly getting worse takes almost seconds to downshift from rd to nd on heavy throttle application and more recently it is reluctant to shift from nd to rd fluid checked with car running with tranny put through all the gears and then back to park as per haynes manual is red and clear and is on full mark my springs all around are just about shot i have new shocks on but car still skips out on bumps in turns at moderate to high speed how hard are they to change can they be reconditioned i d be interested in hearing from any gm full size rwd owners out there with stories to tell and or advice here in philly these cars are apparently stolen quite often and converted into taxis apparently the cab conversion shops will get a junk title for the car or switch vins with a car about to be junked about of philly cabs are caprice s with most of the rest being crown vic s with a few old new yorkers and impalas broughams andrew white awhite mcneil sas upenn edu
rec.autos	market access in article apr eecs nwu edu andrew eecs nwu edu andrew sung hyun kim writes what about the rice import issue of course it is not closed up like a shell but how open is it compared to to us japan is much more open than korea yes a pontiac grand am suffers a factor of increase in price when it is exported to japan however a dodge vehicle the one that congressman gephardt mentioned suffers a factor of increase in price when it is exported to korea a ford taurus suffers the same problem a honda accord costs i am not making this up in korea just how many people would want to buy a honda accord for solution all ships carrying korean made vehicles should be returned to seoul pronto until as such time as korea decides that it wants to abide by the rules of free and fair trade with the usa and japan sayoonara o o ooo u ooo jinsei no imi wa nan desu ka imi ga nai yo umarete kurou shite yatto shinde shimau semete shinde kara itsu made mo anshin dekiru kami sama ima irasshaimasen ka
rec.autos	re v v v v vx ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes i am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have v engines v i don t know of any v legend mr mr v don t know of any v jaguar xjs please add to the list thanks s ssave ole cdac com the viper isn t an inline or flat is it i m pretty sure its a v also the cizeta is a v but it may not yet be more than a dream chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	re sport utility vehical comparisons any opinions from article r i minn n cronkite cisco com by kmac cisco com karl elvis macrae i just read articals on this in road and track and car and driver is that one mag or two b and i was wondering if people out there have any opinions that differed from what these mags have to say i m looking at the following three suv s anyone who s driven all three have any strong opinions ford explorer toyota runner nissan pathfinder currently i m leaning toward the toyota cause i ve had big success with toyota trucks in the past and cause i think it s the best looking of the three but i thought i d see if anyone has any strong opinions thanks karl i agree that the toyota is the best looking i just didn t fit plus it is the highest cost of all the ones you mentioned i have good friends who have all three of the trucks you talked about the ones with kids all went to the ford because of the room required to carry a couple of kids and all the junk you need the single ones went for the toyota and the nissan every one has been happy with what they bought although no one is into serious four wheel off road driving karl elvis macrae software release support cisco systems kmac cisco com or batman cisco com dod fj shovels and rakes and implements of destruction arlo guthrie bentz puryear ncsc bep at t tsc e maplewood ave englewood colorado powder skiing the path to salvation
rec.autos	re market access in article apr leland stanford edu underdog leland stanford edu dwight joe writes in article apr eecs nwu edu andrew eecs nwu edu andrew sung hyun kim writes what about the rice import issue of course it is not closed up like a shell but how open is it compared to to us japan is much more open than korea yes a pontiac grand am suffers a factor of increase in price when it is exported to japan however a dodge vehicle the one that congressman gephardt mentioned suffers a factor of increase in price when it is exported to korea a ford taurus suffers the same problem a honda accord costs i am not making this up in korea just how many people would want to buy a honda accord for solution all ships carrying korean made vehicles should be returned to seoul pronto until as such time as korea decides that it wants to abide by the rules of free and fair trade with the usa and japan now now before we get too carried away here keep in mind that owning any car in korea is a luxury that only the ruling class can afford every government agency worth its salt finds some reason to levy a tax on car ownership last i heard there were seven different fees to pay to own a car i believe this is the sort of petty bureaucratic inefficiency that new president kim young sam wants to eradicate basically i think the rules came into place as bureaucrats from plebian backgrounds wanted to wreak revenge on the ruling class in exchange zaibatsu s like hyundai screwed over smaller companies perpetuating a vicious cycle i have faith that korean people can potentially build cars as well as anyone else but for now hyundai cars seem to reflect the tensions within society of screwy components that won t work together stubborn like a mule the car either won t go forward or won t stop at all
rec.autos	emergency brake on nissan maxima just a quick simple question really how many wheels are affected by the emergency brake on an nissan maxima i ve heard that all four are affected but this would seem unusual to me i thought the emergency brake on most cars only affected the rear wheels also how powerful is the emergency brake usually enough to lock wheels at mph hmmmm i just have to wonder about some of the things i hear outatime
rec.autos	thoughts on the vw corrado vr i was curious as to what people thought of the vw corrado vr that s about it outatime
rec.autos	re market access in article r acf nh agate berkeley edu robohen ocf berkeley edu henry robertson writes now now before we get too carried away here keep in mind that owning any car in korea is a luxury that only the ruling class can afford every government agency worth its salt finds some reason to levy a tax on car ownership last i heard there were seven different fees to pay to own a car i believe this is the sort of petty bureaucratic inefficiency that new president kim young sam wants to eradicate basically i think the rules came into place as bureaucrats from plebian backgrounds wanted to wreak revenge on the ruling class in exchange zaibatsu s like hyundai screwed over smaller companies perpetuating a vicious cycle i have faith that korean people can potentially build cars as well as anyone else but for now hyundai cars seem to reflect the tensions within society of screwy components that won t work together stubborn like a mule the car either won t go forward or won t stop at all hahahahahaha gasp pant hm i m not sure whether the above was just a silly remark or a serious remark but in case there are some misconceptions i think henry robertson hasn t updated his data file on korea since mid s owning a car in korea is no longer a luxury most middle class people in korea can afford a car and do have at least one car the problem in korea especially in seoul is that there are just so many privately owned cars as well as taxis and buses the rush hour has become a hour phenomenon and that there is no place to park last time i heard back in january the kim administration wanted to legislate a law requireing a potential car owner to provide his or her own parking area just like they do in japan also henry would be glad to know that hyundai isn t the only car manufacturer in korea daewoo has always manufactured cars and i believe kia is back in business as well imported cars such as mercury sable are becoming quite popular as well though they are still quite expensive finally please ignore henry s posting about korean politics and bureaucracy he s quite uninformed t h brian chung happiness is this sig was brought jfe alchemy tn cornell edu tea earl grey hot to you by frungy the jfe cornella bitnet lake st apt a sport of kings cesr thc ithaca ny
rec.autos	honda clutch chatter anyone else experiencing a similar problem this concerns the clutch on a honda accord speed when the clutch is first used in the morning about the first miles of shifting there is a significant amount of clutch chatter until things warm up then the clutch shifts smoothly this chatter started when i moved to the san francisco bay area from a low humidity environment the dealer stated that this is known to happen since honda changed from an asbestos to non asbestos clutch material no remedy seems that moisture on clutch surface causes slipping until the moisture evaporates any comments out there
rec.autos	honda civic saturn sl info needed to anyone with experience about honda civic ex or dx or saturn sl i would be interested in knowing how reliable these cars are how expensive they are to own and operate parts maintenance gas insurance if the dealers are good and if they actually live up to their economy image another question what would i expect to pay for a civic ex coupe with automatic air and an am fm radio mail to the address below or post to this group thanks rob bell plains nodak edu
rec.autos	houston auto insurance hello i am moving to houston to go to rice university for graduate school i will be living on the corner of s mian and university blvd i was wondering what kind of liability rates to expect here is the relevent info sex male age status single commute none walking car ford crown victoria door if anyone can check the above info or is in a similar situation please e mail me the rates they find out or pay thanks for your help in advance colello delphi com colello cheshire oxy edu
rec.autos	buying a used car i have a few questions about the tax on a used car purchase i live in new york state and i am going to buy a used car i know that i will have to pay tax when i go to register the car but i would like to know of tax is payed on the book value of the car or on the purchase price also what tax rate is used the owner lives in albany tax and i will be living in saratoga with tax do i pay albany tax or saratoga tax the difference is a whole one more thing how much does it cost for the usual year registration did i leave anything out what else might i have to know to purchase and register a used car i ve never done this before thank you peter volpe
rec.autos	re mr noisy engine in article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes in article apr ultb isc rit edu adn ritvax isc rit edu writes the sound he describes is common to any older toyota engine i ever heard i don t know the relevance of his observations about oil changes my simply makes noise not all that annoying mind you but you hear it well when the engine is right behind your left ear i think those with mr s would describe the engine as sweet if a little loud those with mr s i can t imagine any unbiased person paying it any compliments sounded like my ex dormmate s rusty chevy chevette with the i would want to redline it just for the music with the i would short shift so that it would shut up the new camry features balance shafts i guess since the mr is getting the axe it is too late for them to do anything about this it is no mystery that the turbo mr is only liters the engineers had enough integrity to prevent any further abuses also in europe the mr mk non turbo was also only liters as usual the undiscriminating american market if it is japanese it must be good gets the dogs to be fair we also got the turbo which the europeans well the is music to my ears i often turn my stereo off and just run it towards red line on nice twisty roads but toyota engines at idle have a strange bells and whisstles at the bottom of a matal can sound i can t describe it any better just like all the older benzes have a very characteristic clattering sound at idle do you know what i m referring to mike s
rec.autos	re opel owners in article c tb f usenet ucs indiana edu mliggett silver ucs indiana edu matthew liggett writes manta s are also ve hot and fun cars too hahahahahahahahahahaha thanks for that i haven t laughed so much in ages kevinh hasler ascom ch
rec.autos	re questions about insurance companies esp geico in article mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu david g wonnacott writes i m considering switching to geico insurance but have heard that they do not assign a specific agent for each policy or claim i was worried that this might be a real pain when you make a claim i have also heard that they try to get rid of you if you have an accident i m interestend in determining whether or not these things are true has anyone out there with geico made a claim i d be interested in hearing whether or not you were satisfied with the service and whether you then had trouble renewing your policy i m also interested in any good or bad stories about liberty mutual or state farm geico supports reads gives to police laser radars they have been known to be very picky no sports cars no radar detectors although maryland insurance board over rules this consistantly no turbos basically it seems if you need to use your insurance ever they don t want you they once told me they wouldn t insure me perfect record because of my corvette even though it would be insured by another specialty insurance we must insure all the cars i think this rep didn t know what she was talking about geico is cheap but if you ever file a claim be prepared to be dropped i think in most areas two tickets will do it geico will never see a dime from me if i can help it state farm slighty higher than most but very good response not as picky as geico
rec.autos	opel gt are the any opel gt s out there i m wondering if there are enough to starting a mail list matthew r singer mit lincoln laboratory wood street singer ll mit edu lexington ma
rec.autos	keyless entry now how bruce james writes without the key though the steering column lock would have to be sacrificed not necessarily maybe some sort of servo lock or something along those lines could be used to acheive the same effect maybe a solenoid type of thing too george howell m m ooo ppp aaa rrr mm mm o o p p a a r r m m m o o ppp aaaaa rrr m m o o p a a r r m m ooo p a a r r ford better living through american horsepower george howell george howell goucher wb ffv ampr org
rec.autos	re impala ss going into gm has always screwed the rest of the divisions in favor of the corvette the current platform is no exception the detuned camaro and firebird is a load of crap to keep people from realizing that they can buy one of these instead of a corvette and save about i like the idea of an impala ss but if they really wanted to impress me they would throw in a big phat imagine the cops in their taurus police package and litres as they stare at your taillights george howell m m ooo ppp aaa rrr mm mm o o p p a a r r m m m o o ppp aaaaa rrr m m o o p a a r r m m ooo p a a r r ford better living through american horsepower george howell george howell goucher wb ffv ampr org
rec.autos	re mercury villager minivan good buy in article c ydwp g ncube com bob ncube com bob kehoe says either choice is good but beware that i did not experience reasonable mileage with the v average city driving was mpg with about avg on the highway my nissan quest has been doing mpg city though its first few tanks were more like mpg the v and at are remarkably smooth johnny p stephens sig file upgrade on backorder will be distance learning technology here any day now arizona state university opinions expressed are mine
rec.autos	re zx or sc in article apr ns cc lehigh edu ip ns cc lehigh edu danny phornprapha writes i m getting a car in the near future i ve narrow it down to zx and sc which might be a better choice having driven both and having owned an sc for months now all i can say is it depends they re both great cars in fact my wife and i are saving our pennies so we can get her the zx convertible in a year the zx handles like a dream while the sc rides like a dream fit and finish on both are excellent but the lexus gets the nod in customer satisfaction they re both very attractive and hideously expensive the resale value of the sc is better than the zx the zx isn t available with traction control which makes it a handful on slippery surfaces jim battan sequent computer systems beaverton or battan sequent com or uunet sequent battan
rec.autos	re geeko waz geico annoyance in article c w gf m o noose ecn purdue edu rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu robert j wade writes if you want to annoy geico call them up give fake name but real car specs get a quote and then tell them they are more expensive than your current state farm allstate insurance they will still send you quote etc then you can tear up their quote and stuff it in the prepaid return envelope and mail it back to them actually they were more than my current state farm rates actually i ve had a bad habit of stuffing a whole bunch of other garbage junk mail in along with whatever else into anybody s prepaid envelopes until they almost burst i believe they pay postage by weight heh heh heh anyways don t tear up the quotes just yet i sometimes use their quotes or other insurance quotations as leverage to haggle for a lower rate elsewhere usually it works to your advantage if they are lower aaron
rec.autos	re what car is this in article r n innk p ctron news ctron com smith ctron com lawrence c smith writes in article apr reed edu rseymour reed edu robert seymour writes in article apr wam umd edu lerxst wam umd edu where s my thing writes it was called a bricklin bricklins were manufactured in the s with engines from ford waitaminnit didn t the bricklin have an pugeot six cylinder or am i confusing it with the delorean i was sure the delorean had a v the delorean had the yucky prv v engine a joint venture between peugout note spelling renault and volvo prv this engine is a mighty boring piece of junk with approx hp doesn t like revs at all if you look at the delorean in the movie back to the future you will note that they changed the engine sound to a big v a real delorean doesn t sounds half as good you will also note that every time they have to spin the tires in the movie the ground is all wet this is because a delorean can t make a burnout on a dry road the weak engine thats mounted over the rear axle makes it almost impossible markus larry smith smith ctron com no i don t speak for cabletron need you ask liberty is not the freedom to do whatever we want it is the freedom to do whatever we are able
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots kissane black berkeley edu john g kissane writes as a matter of interest does anyone know why autos are so popular in the us while here in europe they are rare just wondering many cars sold here in finland are small and cheap cars at least when compared to other cars note that we have over car tax and you couldn t expect a good auto mated to a l engine most of the bigger cars are however sold with autos
rec.autos	mgb questions my son is considering the purchase of a mgb which has been substantially restored the odometer has rolled over but we can t be sure of the actual mileage the engine and drive train apparently weren t touched in the restoration except for a new carb and a few hoses he plans to do vacuum and compression checks to see what they might tell us about the engine the body and undercarriage have no visible rust the interior is new as are tires front brakes not sure about the back battery bumpers and other misc parts the paint is checked in a few places and scuffed here and there allegedly by a wind blown car cover it seemed to handle ok except for soft front shocks questions are there problem areas common to mgbs we should check out the brakes seem soft and rather ineffective what should we expect in the way of braking action it seemed to be doggy when accelerating from a stop what should we expect it to do given the cylinder engine the top is in place but will not reach a number of the snaps the weather was cold should the vinyl stretch and fit when it warms up or is it forever shrunk is it normal for the wire wheels to be painted or are they usually chromed given this rather limited description what would be a reasonable price gee this turned out to be a little long sorry while my brother once owned an xk jag what a car we re obviously not into sports cars any help with these questions or suggestions on other things to investigate would surely be appreciated phil truesdale truesdal david wheaton edu
rec.autos	states that charges sales tax after trade in which western states have laws that charge sales tax on the difference between a new car s price and the trade in s value i know california charges you on the full value of the new vehicle regardless of trade in if you are a california resident is it legal to buy a car in a state other than california without also paying california sales tax how does california enforce any law that requires you to also pay california sales tax on top of the out of state tax will estes internet westes netcom com
rec.autos	re warning please read in article apr voodoo ca boeing com tomm hank ca boeing com tom mackey writes you do have the power steve you can do it why don t you why don t you go shoot some kids who are tossing rocks onto cars make sure you do a good job though don t miss cause like they have big rocks and take it from me those kids are mean that is absolutely correct they have a streak of meanness that runs much deeper and stronger than anything i ever experienced even during the height of the s racial struggles i am absolutely convinced that there are kids out there today that have no concept of right and wrong but have the human intelligence which is turning them into the greatest predators that have ever walked the earth they will prevail unless the rest of humanity decides that it is in their best interest to stand up against these feral humans and for individuals to start taking some responsibility for their own protection in a state in which the individuals turn to the authorities and police for protection the police and government is soon composed of the very feral humans that they originally sought protection from and i thought the nutters were the ones throwing the bricks from the bridge gee i guess you touched my hot button i d better go cool off somewhere an institution tom mackey tomm voodoo ca boeing com boeing computer services uunet bcstec voodoo tomm m s k p o box seattle wa kevinh hasler asco ch
rec.autos	re ad said nissan altima best seller in article c uflh p srgenprp sr hp com markg sr hp com mark goldsworthy writes i just bought an altima and like it very much and yes there is a little stanza logo ever so discretely placed on the trunk the altima is emblazoned in big silver letters but the itsy bitsy stanza is shunted to the far left of the trunk lid you can only see it if you get up close to the car and know where to look it is very inconspicuous in fact my first clue that this was a stanza was that the owners manual called the car a nissan stanza altima anybody know why nissan did it this way to avoid paperwork associated with re certification as a brand new car etc so for ad purposes it s a brand new nameplate for paperwork it s still a stanza spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c st kocrsv delcoelect com software technology delco electronics gm hughes electronics kokomo in i post therefore i armm
rec.autos	re pennsylvania insurance limited tort option in article oasys dt navy mil glouie oasys dt navy mil george louie writes coverage this also applies to my existing car insurance policy does anyone understand what the limited tort option means will it lower my rates if i opt to have it or will it be more expensive if i opt to have it what does it do for me in layman s terms please is it a good deal or should i ignore it i m not the type to sue anyone at a drop of the hat nor am i the type to report every little ding to limited tort option will lower your rates if you choose it you can t sue others for pain suffering but you still can sue for economic loss so you can sue for your wrecked car and for medical bills but you can t sue for for pain and suffering at least that s how i understand it michal
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots in article dxp lut fi jahonen cc lut fi jarmo ahonen writes kissane black berkeley edu john g kissane writes as a matter of interest does anyone know why autos are so popular in the us while here in europe they are rare just wondering many cars sold here in finland are small and cheap cars at least when compared to other cars note that we have over car tax and you couldn t expect a good auto mated to a l engine most of the bigger cars are however sold with autos i would guess the high price of gas in europe compared to the us has always favoured cylinder manuals small engines with autos are a real bore but why not turn the question around why are automatics so common in the us my guess is that when they tried to couple manuals to the torque rich v s in the sixties the clutches turned out as real killers you had to use both feet to depress and that this has just lived on and also an automatic with a v engine can be real fun to drive markus chevy camaro th peugout speed don t ask what your car can do for you ask what you can do for your car
rec.autos	re questions about insurance companies esp geico i would gladly spend twice the money for insurance rather than using geico not only do they supply radar guns to the police they also want to make radar detectors illegal they also ask if you have a detector probably to put you in a high risk group or just refuse to insure you i know a few people who were droped by geico due to an accident that was not their fault rob gallant oasys dt navy mil
rec.autos	compilation of problems aw my caprice classic with k miles has finally reached the threshold of total number of mechanical problems that i am forced to post anyone out there who might be able to give me some pointers on one or more of the below please e mail or post aw when making turns especially when accelerating there is usually a loud thunk from the rear of of the car sounds like it could be the differential wheel bearing ujoint aw on starting the car i get blue oil smoke from the exhaust for seconds exhaust valves bad valve stem seals aw brakes more pedal travel than i feel comfortable with but master cylinder is full and fluid is worn pads rear brakes not adjusted up tight or worn out drums of low pedal complaints usually are from a rear brake problem aw tranny tranny problems seem to be slowly getting worse takes almost seconds to downshift from rd to nd on heavy throttle application and more recently it is reluctant to shift from nd to rd fluid checked with car running with tranny put through all the gears and then back to park as per haynes manual is red and clear and is on full mark possible modulator valve if equipped with one also could be the kickdoen cable aw my springs all around are just about shot i have new shocks on but car still skips out on bumps in turns at moderate to high speed how hard are they to change can they be reconditioned difficult on front easy on rear they are not expensive about for front and less than for the rear its also kind of dangerous to work on the front springs without the proper equipment don slmr a i put spot remover on my dog spots gone ye olde bailey bbs v bis v bis houston texas yob sccsi com home of alt cosuard
rec.autos	extensions i was wondering what the country extension are sometimes i just don t have a clue from where some people are writing these are the extensions i know of ch switzerland se sweden fi finland uk uk com us edu us are both com and edu us fr france please feel free to add to this list markus chevy camaro th peugout speed don t ask what your car can do for you ask what you can do for your car
rec.autos	review audi s quattro it s been a while since i ve reviewed a car but today i paid a visit to an old friend whose love for audis has been so overwhelming that he makes a not too sucessful living selling them without further delay i will get to the audi s servotronic steering for those who are not familiar with what servotronic is it is the name for the speed variable power steering manufactured by zf and used in audis and bmws i have been outspoken in my damming of servotronic over the past couple of months and this was based on magazine reviews and drives of the audi cs quattro and the audi cs fwd i am quite happy to report now that on the s the servotronic is inoffensive i suppose that due to the fat gumball tires the servotronic has been loaded up more and this so far has been the best implementation that i have tried it is far from perfect mind you and i d be much happier if it was an option that i could refuse but on the s i no longer consider this to be bad enough where i feel the entire car is ruined the steering is still a tad too light but it is accurate and i suppose the stiffly sprung chassis sends back so much information that some makes it through to the driver s hands so there is feel and there is accuracy in the s s steering but there is also room for improvement i consider the s s steering to be better than the japanese competition primarily because the japanese do not believe in feel and engineer it out completely engine wheee what a pressure cooker with just miles on the clock i did not expect the s to be producing anywhere close to what it will be putting out miles later but still the car packs a terrific punch for a turbocharged machine it is very unusual in that it encourages lazy driving i e low revs high gear it is so supremely flexible that one could hardly believe that there s only liters of displacement to move this pound car around in such a fashion with maximum torque available at rpm and a rpm redline the car can pretty much be left in third all day which translates to a speed range of something like mph a chracteristic that one normally associates with large capacity v s the technical achievement is breadthtaking throttle response is right up there with a good atmospheric engine in fact it would even put peaky multivalve engines to shame downshifts are almost unnecessary it is more fun to use the overboost feature than to rev the engine for those not familiar the s engine features up to seconds of additional turbo boost for passing sort of like lighting up the after burners in a jet fighter one could with the right foot only in third gear blast the car from to in just a few moments simply by flooring the gas as far as the numbers go maximum torque available in overboost mode shoots up to about lb ft incredible for a liter it takes a few moments for it to develop overboost but it is well worth waiting for since this is quite a heavy car one s body parts are not flung around like say the corrado vr the acceleration is smooth and strong somewhat similar to riding in a jetliner as it accelerates down the runway on takeoff also one is treated to a very distinctive and entertaining whistle from the turbo the only entertaining sound to come out of a very refined but bland sounding banger yes audi has refined the to the point where at rpm it sounds as serene as it does at the smoothness is outstanding but not quite up to the standards of a very good e g a valve bmw i d say that in terms of refinement i e willingness to rev smoothness lack of harshness under full acceleration it is better than many v s however lost in the refinement process is the characteristic cylinder bark that made the older engines so characterful if not terribly refined the valve turbo sounds pretty bland except for the whistle under full boost subjectively i d rate the vw vr engine as being far more musical than the turbo also audi s own v is also far more musical with a rorty race car growl when pressed though none of these can match its grunt the only hint of the engine s true capacity occurs when one is taking off from rest after the turbo has come to a near stop with the extra inertia from the permanently engaged wd system one has to be somewhat delicate in feeding in the clutch to prevent an embarassing stall alternately one could use more revs in both cases a very small price to pay for such a fantastic engine i think that audi of america should offer an automatic option for this car just as they offer though in extremely small numbers a speed for the much peakier v the characteristics of the engine are perfect for an automatic ironically in europe a slush is available but none is offered for the land of the slush marketing twits rearing their ugly heads again chassis i ve noticed that audis tend to have very wide wheels and relatively modest tire widths the car comes with firestones of size zr which is not uncommon at all however the very attractive spoke wheels are no less than inches wide so there is no sidewall bulge whatsoever combined with the flared wheel arches the s has a mouth watering macho yet subdued look on rough concrete it becomes immediately clear that the new body style has made significant advances in structural rigidity as well as road noise suppression i suppose the two are inter related but i digress to use a cliche the s s body feels like it has been carved out of stone flex is totally undetectable even when going over rough roads with a super rigid body like this stiff springs and stiff dampers do not cause excessive harshness and while the s s ride quality will never worry a lexus it will also not draw comparisons to trucks or pony cars the servotronic steering has already been mentioned i consider it to be inoffensive because it did not inhibit spirited cornering i was able to test the car s cornering powers without too much trepidation i think a new concept is at work in this car with its fat gumball tires talking about understeer or oversteer is practically meaningless on a banked highway on ramp i went in slow and started applying power as i went around i could feel the g forces build to the point where the skin on my face was being tugged sideways yet the car was totally and completely obedient to throttle and steering inputs it felt that the limits were not even close to being approached the g forces were thrilling but the entire affair of going around a curve is strangely uninvolving you tell the car what you want and it does it end of story i think that i am starting to relate more and more to those reviewers who were highly impressed by the honda nsx s clinical efficiency but were unable to fall in love with the car the brakes have a very good firmness to them and stop the car pretty well too though i ve read that they are prone to fade i am not too surprised since the s does not have uprated brakes over the base audi fwd harder pads would help but that in turn would lead to a more wooden response when cold i am starting to see a trend among the luxury sports sedan makers where extra weight is not being offset by additional braking capacity the ls s fade performance is nothing to brag about neither is the q s or the legend s brake fade these days seem to be a forgotten virtue when everybody s attention is focused on anti lock capability comfort for a car with such sporty abilities its comfort levels are also excellent the cabin is beautifully appointed with carbon fiber panel inserts in place of the wood trim of the s all the expected gizmos are there heated seats power seats seat memory power this and that the glaring ommision was the trip computer which was removed because audi hasn t gotten it to work reliably yet that means that the car has no boost gauge a real disappointment taking into account how much the turbo dominates its performance unusual for the germans the s comes with a honda style moonroof as well as the very intelligent dial a sunroof position rotary switch noise levels including engine and tire noise is so low that i wouldn t consider the lexus advantage in this area to be significant enough to sway a potential buyer conclusion even though few will be able to afford an audi s at its sticker price of k the car is a bargain if one takes into account what it has to offer over the competition the valve turbo is a real gem even if it doesn t produce ferrari sounds no other luxury sports sedan maker offers the utter security of quattro all wheel drive which to some is worth the extra money all by itself the safety features are also top notch side impact standard compliant the very elegant automatic seat belt tensioners and the dual airbags the series audis have been outstanding in government crash tests it gets my thumbs up for being so overwhelmingly capable rather than being all out exciting and intoxicating eliot
rec.autos	re houston auto insurance in article apr cheshire oxy edu colello cheshire oxy edu robert colello writes hello i am moving to houston to go to rice university for graduate school i will be living on the corner of s mian and university blvd i was wondering what kind of liability rates to expect here is the relevent info sex male age status single commute none walking car ford crown victoria door if anyone can check the above info or is in a similar situation please e mail me the rates they find out or pay thanks for your help in advance colello delphi com colello cheshire oxy edu my suggestion look at your current insurance card there will be a name accross the top telling you which insurance company you are insured by call information in houston and get the number of a branch office in the houston area call the insurance company your rates will vary depending on the amount of coverage you want do you want to carry comp and collision probably not on an what your driving record is you mentioned none of these things in your posting so how can anyone give you accurate information like i said pick up the phone and make a few calls it won t kill you jeff
rec.autos	re service indicator of a bmw derek there is a tool available to reset the service indicator on bmws but the lights will come back on after weeks the tool is in fact illegal in europe atleast it is often the case that the unsuspecting punter trots off to buy a used bmw and a few weeks later all the lights come on other than that i know of no other tool anyone else about changing oil every miles thats ok on newer audis they only require it after every miles i am talking about an oil change just a query do you drive your car very very carefully like no sudden acceleration etc if yeah then the m oil change seems quite reasonable but if you drive kinda fast i d get a bit up tight abot that thingy a point to note just because the first light came on at k doesn t mean all the others will come on every k too shaz
rec.autos	re mr noisy engine just a quick note on the nwe shape mr s in the uk when they first came out here there were models the base model had an auto box and engine from the camry well i recentyl found out that this model is no longer profitable for toyota and have since scraped it i ve also noticed that auto mr s have depreciated a lot more than the next model up surprise surprise huh oh you lucky americans have the turbo mr no such luck over here shaz
rec.autos	re rfi art of clutchless shifting i used to drive a truck a few years back i once rode with an old codger that had been driving for about yrs the only time he would use the clutch was to get the truck moving he could shift that speed lightning quick up or down without the slightest rake of a gear he was as smooth as silk it was the most amazing shifting demonstration i ve ever seen having said all that i still don t know why anyone would want to shift a synchronized tranny without a clutch why do it
rec.autos	re a c service rip off in article apr chpc utexas edu ivab chpc utexas edu albert wu writes i went to a place called american car care centers to check my car for a c leak after checking i was told that there is a leak in the compressor seal at the end in addition to the labor for the check i was charged dollars for a pound of freon although they evacuated my a c afterwards because of the leak first is it fair for him to charge me for a pound of freon plus tax second what can i do about this if this is unfair albert wu for the information of those not lucky enough to live in the city of austin tx if an auto a c system is checked and found to have leaks it must be repaired at that time or evacuated this is an ordinance unique i think to the city of austin freon is subject to increasing taxes but is about x cost here recovered freon is not required to be purchased from the car it is withdrawn from as a matter of practice some shops here are charging a recycling fee that is less than the cost of the freon removed if it is reintroduced to the system just another quality service from an enviornmentally conscious city rick kirchhof austin texas experience is what you domain rick posms aus tx us get when you don t bang path cfi org posms rick get what you want
rec.autos	re warped brake discs on taurus l in article apr advtech uswest com joe advtech uswest com joe thielen writes xref sun x rec autos misc consumers newsgroups rec autos misc consumers path sun x actcnews psinntp psinntp uunet wupost zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu csn cherokee joe from joe advtech uswest com joe thielen subject re warped brake discs on taurus l message id apr advtech uswest com sender news advtech uswest com radio free boulder nntp posting host absoraka advtech uswest com organization u s west advanced technologies references apr bcrka bnr ca dmerrill apr ryn mro dec com date wed apr gmt lines in article apr ryn mro dec com balsamo stargl enet dec com antonio l balsamo save the wails writes from dmerrill bnr ca dana merrill subject re warped brake discs on taurus l anyone else had the same problem well i have an taurus gl apparently they still haven t fixed the problem with the rotors i ve got k miles on the clock and i m getting the rotors and pads replaces tonight at my expense of course tony i owned a ford mustang that had endless brake problems the bad thing was that it had all other kinds of problems too spent months in the shop in the first years i owned it bought new so i got rid of it and will more than likely not buy a ford product in the future the thing that really ticked me off was how ford treated me they were such jerks it was unbelievable joe in the past few years i have owned mustang gts and now own a t bird sc they all have had this problem there was a recall on the t bird for the brake problem the ford dealer replaced the rotors and pads but the rotors warp after about k miles between this problem and the fit and finish problems on the t bird i ll never buy a ford again bruce s winters bsw utrc utc com united technologies research center e hartford ct usa
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots jahonen cc lut fi jarmo ahonen writes kissane black berkeley edu john g kissane writes as a matter of interest does anyone know why autos are so popular in the us while here in europe they are rare just wondering many cars sold here in finland are small and cheap cars at least when compared to other cars note that we have over car tax and you couldn t expect a good auto mated to a l engine most of the bigger cars are however sold with autos here in australia most cars are manual privately owned anyway why not sure i think it has something to do with the fact that our car industry in the past was more closely aligned with europe than the us in the past now it s aligned with asia scott scott fisher scott psy uwa oz au ph aus perth local n department of psychology w e university of western australia perth s e s nedlands perth w a v joy is a jaguar xj with a flat battery a blown oil seal and an unsympathetic wife km outside of a small remote town am on a cold wet winters morning
rec.autos	re honda clutch chatter in article hpindda cup hp com jimb hpindda cup hp com james bruder writes from jimb hpindda cup hp com james bruder date wed apr gmt organization hp information networks cupertino ca path eclipse yktnews watson ibm com hawnews watson ibm com newsgate watson ibm com news ans net howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com hplextra hpcss hpindda jimb newsgroups rec autos lines anyone else experiencing a similar problem this concerns the clutch on a honda accord speed when the clutch is first used in the morning about the first miles of shifting there is a significant amount of clutch chatter until things warm up then the clutch shifts smoothly this chatter started when i moved to the san francisco bay area from a low humidity environment the dealer stated that this is known to happen since honda changed from an asbestos to non asbestos clutch material no remedy seems that moisture on clutch surface causes slipping until the moisture evaporates any comments out there i have been having problems with a slightly different clutch problem on my prelude see rec autos tech for more detail my problem is a false engagement point below the actual one it also seems affected by weather it is most noticeable and annoying on damp or cold days my dealer says he can t reproduce the problem i think i ll just sell the car jeff goss
rec.autos	re nissan nomenclature was re manual shift bigots wanted in rec autos grahamt phantom gatech edu graham e thomas writes what we currently know as the sx is known elsewhere as a sx graham e thomas blah blah blah blah blah this is kind of interesting i always assumed that the sx was named because of the liter engine which it uses likewise for the sx which uses a liter engine isn t this true george
rec.autos	re pennsylvania insurance limited tort option in my opinion the limited tort option is the best thing casey has ever done basically limited tort means that you give up your right to sue for pain and suffering unless one of the following conditions is met your medical bills resulting from the accident exceed x where x is some number like i m not sure of the exact number the accident was caused by a drunk driver i mean the other driver was drunk you get a good lawyer and have a good case basically you can appeal to regain your right to sue but there s almost no chance of this ever happening you are only giving up your right to sue for pain and suffering you can still sue for medical costs actual damages etc by agreeing to limited tort you are essentially giving up your right to be an asshole who treats every accident as an entry into the litigation lottery in exchange you get a substantial reduction in your rates i save year unfortunately the insurance companies have managed to scare and confuse people so much that only about of pennsylvanians go for limited tort i guess that s ok if more people opted for it the insurance companies would be pushing harder for repeal
rec.autos	re what car is this the bricklin was a car manufactured by a company started by malcolm bricklin who i believe was canadian he was the first one to import subarus and later was responsible for importing yugos i believe anyway he had this idea that what would really sell would be a sports car but one incorporating a bunch of innovative safety features the bricklin was built to be that queerest of beasts the safety sports car if any of you remember the early s movement among car makers to design experimental safety cars you will recognize the general appearance of the bricklin big ol bumpers etc anyone recall other safety features the engine was an american v ford i think is right personally i kinda like the way they look and if i remember from the old magazine articles the performance was only half bad the choice of colors though tended towards the s lime green yech but highly visible i suppose the delorean on the other hand was a dog nice looking imo but no motor at all dan dh q andrew cmu edu carnegie mellon university applied history i have standards if you don t like them i have others groucho
rec.autos	re honda clutch chatter in article hpindda cup hp com jimb hpindda cup hp com james bruder writes anyone else experiencing a similar problem this concerns the clutch on a honda accord speed when the clutch is first used in the morning about the first miles of shifting there is a significant amount of clutch chatter until things warm up then the clutch shifts smoothly this chatter started when i moved to the san francisco bay area from a low humidity environment the dealer stated that this is known to happen since honda changed from an asbestos to non asbestos clutch material no remedy seems that moisture on clutch surface causes slipping until the moisture evaporates any comments out there the clutch on my honda civic ex v ex in the u s does this too it s annoying now that i think about it is worse when the humidity is high the dealer also claims there s nothing they can do since the clutch is a self adjusting hydraulic design yeah right doug zolmer internet dwjz bnr ca disclaimer my opinions only bell northern research ltd ottawa ontario canada dept n service control point routing services design conform moooo
rec.autos	re what is the deal with blue book value of an auto newton convex com vicki newton writes i am in the process of buying a new auto i haven t decided yet whether i should sell my current car myself or trade it in as part of the new auto purchase i know that the blue book value for the car is an acquaintence has offered to give me blue book value for the car i am just wondering if this is a standard measure for negotiating a resale price or if i can hope to get more money from someone else what exactly is blue book value based on i know that for its year my car has low mileage it is in excellent working condition but does have a few dings on the exterior nothing major do any of these facts alter the fair selling p rice of the car i am not looking to rip anyone off i just naturally want to get the best price for the car thanks a million veek i think the blue book is the nada handbook for used car prices no is the blue book value given the retail or wholesale value the blue book value isn t set in stone though low milage extra addons and stuff like that there can increase the resale price of the car you may want to head on over to the local library or borrow your friends blue book and read up on that sort of stuff i paid under bb retail for my civic in and it was in perfect condition and had only k miles on it the guy was desparate to sell new kid on the way etc but it was a good price remeber both you and the buyer if he has any sort of brains at all are using the blue book so you should pick a fair price chintan amin llama uiuc edu chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	re what is the deal with blue book value of an auto in article apr news eng convex com newton convex com vicki newton writes i am in the process of buying a new auto i haven t decided yet whether i should sell my current car myself or trade it in as part of the new auto purchase i know that the blue book value for the car is an acquaintence has offered to give me blue book value for the car i am just wondering if this is a standard measure for negotiating a resale price or if i can hope to get more money from someone else what exactly is blue book value based on i know that for its year my car has low mileage it is in excellent working condition but does have a few dings on the exterior nothing major do any of these facts alter the fair selling p rice of the car i am not looking to rip anyone off i just naturally want to get the best price for the car thanks a million veek a dealer will make money off you in three ways if you let him new car markup over his cost remember his hold back arranging financing through the dealership and screwing you on the trade keep the deal with the dealer simple by eliminating buying a car at dealer s cost is meaningless if he makes on the trade and or gets a kickback from the bank blue book you need to know if you re talking average wholesale or average retail is a good guide to value for a car if you are selling it yourself try to get average retail and chances are you ll have done ok be careful selling to acquaintances if you ever want them to become friends c b fowler gtri esml chris fowler gtri gatech edu
rec.autos	pontiac option codes wanted does anyone have a listing of pontiac s three letter option codes and what they mean thanks oliver oliver scholz dg nem graduate student of computer sciences at the university of erlangen germany you re killing me peg oh shut up al like i care
rec.autos	re thoughts on the vw corrado vr in article apr galileo cc rochester edu jg b uhura cc rochester edu outatime writes i was curious as to what people thought of the vw corrado vr that s about it outatime it hauls butt handles nice but is junk i drove a brand new one for a day as a loaner the key was already rusting seems they stamp their keys out of pot metal all the controls seemed really junk clutch was heavy door locks power buttons sunroof controls etc seemed really cheap no way i would pay k for this baby no airbag either i also drove a svx for a day stickered at k but going out the door for k a much better buy imo although it is more of a sports touring coupe roomy etc the corrado is more of a small sports car the ergonomics and leather in the svx was twice as nice as the corrado s both had smooth strong engines
rec.autos	marten problems hi everybody well i don t know if this is a known problem to you in the big state but over here in europe it is in some places it just happened to me and i payed a lot to get my new honda civic repaired a marten choose my car to stay one night in and this damn little animal damaged almost everything which was plastic rubber i never thought that these little could do that much damage so to all you car owners out there is there a good known method of gettin rid of this animal except for waiting all night long beneath my car with a gun help in any form would be appreciated very very much e mail scheer faw uni ulm de thanxxxx y all
rec.autos	geico annoyance if you want to annoy geico call them up give fake name but real car specs get a quote and then tell them they are more expensive than your current state farm allstate insurance they will still send you quote etc then you can tear up their quote and stuff it in the prepaid return envelope and mail it back to them actually they were more than my current state farm rates
rec.autos	re best radar detector valentine from article apr sequent com by troy sequent com troy wecker earlier i commented on the valentine and jimf centerline com replied about the value of the units bogey counter i didn t really go into why i called this feature a gimmick so here is more explanation thanks jim for the good comments and opinion from what i understand the valentine can only tell if these microwaves are coming from the front rear or both there are only two antennas if they are coming from both this in interpreted as a side bogey bogey counts are determined as sources by their relative strength to one another even if they are reflections of the same source it sounds like your analysis is based on hypothesis and not actually using the valentine i d like to give some feedback based on real life experince i keep the valentine in advanced logic mode and it rarely lights up as a christmas tree the only time it does is when i am in the middle of a major shopping area and then it makes sense that is does since there are sources coming from many different directions i have found the valentine to be consistent in its reporting of bogeys regardless of any moving cars in the area i have found the directional indication to be very useful in one case there was two radar traps set up within one mile of each other as i passed the first radar trap the direction indication changed then the detector was set off again pointing in the forward direction with other radar detectors i would have assumed that this was due to a reflection but with the valentine i knew there was a high probability that there was another trap and there was on other occasions the directional helped discern a false alarm from a true alarm for example as i pass a source the direction indicator changes the directional also allows me to focus my attention as to where the signal might be coming from instead of having to look all over the place when a car is approaching me from the rear with a detector that leaks i can tell that the signal is coming from the rear and as the car passes me i can verify the source with other detectors i would have been unable to do this and would have had to assume that there was a radar trap when there was none i ve had the valentine for several months now and find its added features to be useful and not gimmicks barry barry frishberg blf apollo ch hp com chelmsford uk expert center tn chelmsford ma
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast still its amazing in germany you can have cars traveling mph and mph on the same to lane road around washington dc they can t keep traffic flowing at germans are just more organised you can t blitz all of europe in a matter of what months unless you re pretty organised if we tried that there d just be a whole bunch of tanks backed up at the border waiting for some jerk in the right lane trying to get over to make a left turn this of course caused germany to invade belgium one of the important lessons of history is that anything including late afternoon thundershowers will cause germany to invade belgium dave barry happy motoring jmr sl blue green he s the most inventive asshole i ve ever met he really puts a lot of energy into it
rec.autos	help with mitsubishi galant gs transmission hi i need your help with a problem i have with a mitsubishi galant gs transmission the car has a speed manual tranmission since the car was bought new while shifting from nd to rd unless i do it slowly and carefully it makes a popping or hitting sound the dealer and mitsubishi customer service reached by an say this is normal for the car is it and about a year ago at kmiles the stick shift handle got stuck while attempting to put it in reverse the shifter would not budge the clutch had no effect the front tires would not budge even when the clutch is fully depressed if the clutch is released the engine would die assuming that some gear was engaged while the shifter was stuck i could not make the car move it acted as if it were in neutral except for dying when clutch is released i finally was able to release the shifter by having someone rock the car back and forth less than an inch while i depressed the clutch and jiggled the shifter the shifter acted normally after that when this happened i took it to the dealer they checked the clutch it was o k they checked the transmission it was o k i had the exact problem a couple of months ago and again last week the dealer says there is nothing they can do because mitsubishi the says they have never heard of the problem and the dealer could not reproduce the problem while they had the car in all three occurances the car was parked head first in a garage and since the front wheels were stuck the car could not be towed to the dealer before releasing the shifter hence temporarily solving the problem and the dealer and mitsubishi refused to send someone to check the car while it was stuck i know there is smething wrong with the transmission shifting from nd to rd and getting stuck at random but i can t get the dealer to fix it i need your help with the mechanical problems and with how to handle mitsubishi all hints and suggestions are greatly appreciated and sorry to bore you with the long post thanks rabih
rec.autos	re choice of gauges in article c ybo e i vcd hp com dmunroe vcd hp com dave gauge writes if you had free reign to design your own instrument cluster which gauges would you choose to have beyond the basic set turbo boost is necessary if a turboed car fuel reserve warning coolant level warning it would also be nice to have a gauge that would cycle across the different sensors in the fi system such as o sensor altitude air flow i d love to get tranny and diff brake temp would be great and a big ass tach sean from the labs of balderrama mitchell reifschneider and wahlstedt inc sean reifschneider ruler of the realm jafo accum com
rec.autos	drag coefficients could someone explain how to make sense of drag coefficients i e cd mentioned in magazines i understand that lower numbers signify better aerodynamics but what does this mean in the real world is there a way to calculate new top speeds assuming the car is not rev limited at top speed or mileage benefits if a identical car had the cd reduced from to thanx
rec.autos	re alarm systems are they worthwhile talking about car alarms there are certain cars in this country that are only insurable if they are fitted with a vecta alarm we re talking coswoths and porsches and stuff just before they the insurance companies decided to make this move they insisted that the car be fitted with a scorpion alarm now they ve changed to the vecta so everyone who s spent on fitting the scorpion alarm have founbd themselves having to upgrade to the vecta system sad huh shaz
rec.autos	re comparing saabs bmw s i dont know about saabs but whenever there is a long temr tset in a magazine they always say that tehy re are little annoying niggles which keep on occuring every so often i wouldn t expect that from such a quality car why doesn t anything like this ever happen on bmws maybe coz they re quality cars shrugs repentently shaz
rec.autos	re lexus and infiniti yeah and bmw e has litres btw can someone out there please tell me how to put someone else s file on and then reply to that so the other person s file and my own reply go to the newgroups together ps just mail me personally thanx in advance
rec.autos	re warning please read enough already let s take this discussion to some other newsgroup that s more appropriate most of us are tired of it and would like to get back to old cars imho chuck lampman chuck lampman gstrf gatech edu
rec.autos	re autos dealer in article apr porthos cc bellcore com tvl prefect cc bellcore com lam thanh writes i got a price quote of for a camry v w abs from a toyota dealer in eatontown i came back to that dealer in two weeks to sign a purchase agreement then i was told that the salesperson made an error in pricing i walked out of that dealer i wonder if this kind of practice is common with toyota dealers is the price quote written on the salesperson s business card binding i would appricate any comments i had a similar experience we had a written quote which had been mailed to us from the salesman at one of these no haggle toyota dealers for a camry xle w abs leather etc the price seemed fair but when we went in to take them up on their offer they discovered that certain extra cost items hadn t been included in their original written quote it would have totaled an extra and in spite of the fact that we had a written quote they said there was nothing they could do bottom line quotes from salemen are worthless and it appears to me that the toyota dealers think they ve got such a superior auto that they don t have to deal we walked went out and bought a new lh car eagle vision tsi and i don t regret it one bit thad mcculloch mcculloc mail lds loral com
rec.autos	re toyota land cruiser worth it tvervaek col hp com tom vervaeke writes my wife and i looked at and drove one last fall this was a model it was wayyyyyyyyy underpowered i could not imagine driving it in the mountains here in colorado at anything approaching highway speeds i have read that the new models have a newer improved hp engine i m quite serious that i laughed in the salesman face when he said once it s broken in it will feel more powerful i had been used to driving a jeep l hp engine i believe the s land cruisers land yachts were l the sames as the runner which is also underpowered in my own personal opinion they are big cars very roomy but nothing spectacular tom vervaeke email tvervaek cs itc hp com hewlett packard co phone i love animals they taste delicious the land cruiser has a l engine which has hp and torgue when i drove it here in california power is more than enough the high price is the only reason i did not buy it
rec.autos	re dirty diesels hhd harvey gte com horace dediu writes in article nataraja opal nataraja rtsg mot com kumaravel natarajan writes i heard the diesels are considered cleaner burning than gas engines because the emit less of carbon monoxide hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen co hc nox but they can put out a lot of particulate matter i heard something about legislation being discussed to clean up diesel emissions is there anything in the works to install scrubbers for diesels how about the feasibility of installing them on trucks and cars would it be any different than a catylitic converter i d assume easier since we re removing particulate matter instead of converting gasses let s hear people s opinions this really bugs me the emissions of diesels are the cleanest of any vechicle but they are considered so polluting that they are banned in passenger cars in california what a bunch of crap diesel is the fuel of choice for enviromental benefit in europe while here it s illegal for the same reason the particulates are nothing but carbon they are just an annoyance at worst nothing beats the diesel cycle for efficiency and emissions torque or engine durability it s also cheaper just to clear things up as to why i posted the question that way i was debating with a co worker about diesels i claimed they were cleaner burning than gas engines he said the extra junk put out by them was offset by the savings in greenhouse gasses i made all the same claims you did but one question of his was what about the carbon i said it was harmless but he wanted to know how to get rid of it i suggested scrubbers i figured it would be no harder or more expensive to install than cats does there exist any designs for a scrubber i d like to know just to answer his final question i convinced him that diesels are cleaner otherwise btw i named my subject dirty diesels because i knew it would get a reaction out of people who knew they were cleaner than gas engines and that they d read it vel natarajan nataraja rtsg mot com motorola cellular arlington hts il
rec.autos	re v v v v vx remove legend from the v list it s a steve morris m a internet smorris sumax seattleu edu addiction studies pgm uucp uw beaver uunet gtenmc dataio sumax smorris seattle university phone dept or direct seattle wa
rec.autos	diatribe on us sold opels was re opel owners gibbonsa fraser sfu ca darren gibbons writes i m looking for information on opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth is i m not entirely sure but it s a two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking my friend has one sitting in his yard in really nice condition body wise but he transmission has seized up on him so it hasn t run for a while does anyone have any info on these cars the engine compartment looks really tight to work on but it is in fine shape and i am quite interested in it that would be the opel gt sold in this country from to it originally had a cc engine which was later replaced by the cc it was based on the old kadett drive train and suspension with leaf springs in the rear and a single transverse leaf spring in the front it looked good but was limited as a performer there has also been some discussion in this thread about the manta and other models in opel introduced a new line of models the series that were also known as model numbers etc these cars had the newer cc engine and were available as two and four door coupes a station wagon and a sport coupe known in europe as the manta at the same time there were two series cars which sold very few numbers that also had the engine but the kadett suspension the sport coupe model was also available as the rallye r with a blacked out hood tach and fog lights but was mechanically the same except for a numerically higher rear end ratio in the sport coupe was also named the manta in the us was the last year for the gt in any country both because of the us bumper height regulations and the fact that fiat exercised an option on the factory that opel was leasing to build the gts the series continued in with minor body differences in the manta sedan also called the ascona and the wagon were available with bosch electronic fuel injection these cars also had larger brakes and wider wheels these cars were starting to compete with the buick century low price leader of the time and were the last opels imported into the us from to cars that sported buick opel badges were still sold by the buick dealers but were rebadged isuzu i marks the idea was to call them opels instead of changing the dealers neon signs various models of the series cars dominated the showroom stock racing of the s in their class and were known as serious competition parts are still available from a number of sources i still have a manta and two sedans and all the trick parts i could collect in years john kennedy uunet opel johnk second source inc johnk secondsource com annapolis md
rec.autos	honda headrest stuck advice please an aquaintence has a accord the driver s side headrest was accidentally put in backwards and has jammed according to the dealer the only way to get it out is to spend several hours disassembling the seat this is the second time i have heard of this happening and i wonder whether there s an easier way to get the headrest back out has anyone else ever dealt with this problem your advice would be appreciated please email and i will summarize if there is interest dan dyndata com dan everhart uunet camco fluke dyndata dan fax th st sw dynamic data electronics edmonds wa usa rhe rone rike rhe rone rike rhorane astro sings cocaine
rec.autos	re mbenz series vw passat jcorry erasure sl cc emory edu jeremy corry writes new series mercedes benz wagon particularly i would like to hear about power manual t only any comparisons between the saab line and the mercedes would be helpful if a manual transmission is a must have then the m b te is not in the running you cannot get a manual transmission in that car in north america it seems that buyers here or maybe more accurately the distributors are not interested in manual trannies the line comes with a hp engine all earlier years are hp i have an e with a mere hp and auto tranny and i find that it has sufficient power for any normal driving situation more is always nice but i can t complain i test drove a saab cse last fall here are my impressions awesome power especially over rpm when the turbo really comes on if you get on the power really hard in a tight corner the front wheel drive causes it to understeer heavily and then viciously hook into the corner not a desirable handling trait but common in powerful front drive cars the cse is hp mercedes is rear drive so it does not have this problem huge interior and cargo space the most rubbery shifter i have ever encountered i drove a spd it was absolutely numb you might be able to get used to it i don t know i also didn t like its location which was too far down and too far right from the shifter s position i got the impression that saab really designed the car for an automatic it was rather noisy engine buzz rattles and creaks mercedes does not exhibit these characteristics you should also check out the new bmw touring this is a wagon version of the i it fits into the class with the te and saabs michael chmilar chmilar apple com
rec.autos	re what is the deal with blue book value of an auto mail bounced so in article apr news eng convex com you write i am in the process of buying a new auto i haven t decided yet whether i should sell my current car myself or trade it in as part of the new auto purchase traditional wisdom says you are almost certainly better off selling it yourself if you don t mind that extra hassle having a trade in on a purchase just makes getting the best price from a dealership more confusing i know that the blue book value for the car is i assume this is retail bluebook there are two bluebook prices one for retail and one for wholesale you really want the retail price if you can get it the blue books also have adjustments you can make for low mileage and extras on your particular car you should look all this stuff up yourself also keep in mind that the blue book prices are averages over the country that may not apply in your area for example blue book prices are low for california a better way of finding out how much your car might be worth is to call around and see what it s selling for if any used lots have one or looking in local papers for similar cars and checking out the prices it might be more time efficient to take a small loss rather than hold out for months for the best price an acquaintence has offered to give me blue book value for the car i don t know what you mean by an acquaintance but i would make darn sure that i was paid that is cashier s check in full before delivery there s a real temptation when selling to a pseudo friend to be more accomodating than you should make sure you get the money and if they hedge about paying in full at the start with a cashier s check or cash then i would go elsewhere rememeber that you can probably sell your car to a used car lot or wholesaler and get wholesale bluebook that s probably a safer approach than selling to a private party alan mountain dew and doughnuts ames elroy alan because breakfast is the most important meal alan elroy jpl nasa gov of the day
rec.autos	re questions about insurance companies esp geico in article mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu david g wonnacott writes i m considering switching to geico insurance but have heard that they do not assign a specific agent for each policy or claim i was worried that this might be a real pain when you make a claim i have also heard that they try to get rid of you if you have an accident i m interestend in determining whether or not these things are true has anyone out there with geico made a claim i d be interested in hearing whether or not you were satisfied with the service and whether you then had trouble renewing your policy i m also interested in any good or bad stories about liberty mutual or state farm stay away from geico a recent car driver issue has an article about geico giving free laser guns to police departments to increase they re speed limit enforcement the article also said that if you get a speeding ticket your premium will increase dramatically based on how much over the limit you were if i remember correctly at more than over you ll get something like a increase if you have a radar detector you will be denied coverage or dropped immediately one accident claim and you will be dropped after many years with geico my father who had tickets and had made claims had an accident and filed an claim he was dropped immediately since then he has been with state farm for years with no complaints i have been with state farm for about years no complaints travis
rec.autos	re mercury villager minivan good buy in article c ydwp g ncube com bob ncube com bob kehoe writes curiously and consider these are test vehicles i found the mercury higher in build quality than the nissan this is very curious being that they are both built by mercury in the very same factory steve stephen yavorski internet yavo ivy paramax com nexrad integration phone paramax systems corporation ivyland pennsylvania
rec.autos	re drag coefficients in article apr wdl loral com gwm spl spl loral com gary w mahan writes could someone explain how to make sense of drag coefficients i e cd mentioned in magazines i understand that lower numbers signify better aerodynamics but what does this mean in the real world is there a way to calculate new top speeds assuming the car is not rev limited at top speed or mileage benefits if a identical car had the cd reduced from to i don t remember the formula s off hand as it has been awhile since i took aerodynamics and haven t used the stuff since the cd is related to the drag force which is what effects top speed and fuel consumption when the drag force on the car or aircraft is greater than what the vehicle s engine can overcome it has reached its top speed autos of course also have to overcome rolling resistance since drag opposes the vehicle s motion the engine must make up for that by burning more fuel anyway since the geometery of an auto is rather complex the drag pressure coeffiecent etc is either found experimentaly or using a numerical method anyway for flow around a cylinder the drag coeff is cd d q r where d is the drag force q the flow velocity and r is the radius of the clyinder to get a rough very rough estimate you can set r at the car s width q at the car s speed and knowing the cd find the drag force that the car would need to overcome bp
rec.autos	re what is the deal with blue book value of an auto it s a toll for insurance companies and auto dealers to rip you off in case of accident or trade in charlie ellis chellis nyx cs du edu charlie ellis chellis nyx cs du edu
rec.autos	review ford taurus sho gk occasionally i have trouble shifting into reverse the shifter gk refuses to enter the gate and i often grind the synchros trying to gk get it into gear i ll be watching this carefully in the next couple gk of months enter st wait seconds and then go into reverse they use the same synchros and you ll never at least i haven t ground em to fit when using this technique the cutting edge bbs cutting hou tx us a pcboard a system houston texas usa running uupcb
rec.autos	review ford taurus sho gk i hear that tires for this car can get really expensive i gk currently have goodyear gt s that cost the previous owner gk for four try eagle gas wear better cost less lose little handling and are quieter i m going to switch to s in my next set with new rims fitti twists if i can afford em by the time my gas wear out gk is a whole new ritual for me with that fangled pedal also i began gk to wonder how strong that brake really is today i backed out of gk parking spot today and started to drive away before i noticed gk the glowing brake light oops mine is strong enough to not let the car move when it s in even if you re giving it enough gas to normally move it in st you might need a brake adjustment gk the driver s power window creaks when closed all the way the same gk thing happens in my parents mercury sable oddly all the gk other windows work smoothly watch it closely the glass actually flexes from the torque in the motor it seems stronger in the drivers window then the others gk i m liking the interior amenities more and more each day the gk cupholders are great i ve found the location under the armrest in between the seats to be a pain but like having them they moved it into the dash pop out in the model year much better gk i really feel like i don t deserve this car i really can t gk believe that i could afford it i got this car ten years gk ahead of schedule i did the same thing got a black with k miles on it for k in july gk i ve put together the responses to my questions about the cars as gk well as other posts with useful information on these cars i ll be gk posting this in the form of a faq soon grabbed it and archived it thanks gk if anyone is interested in starting a mailing list please speak up gk i don t know if i have the resources here at purdue to start one but gk maybe someone out there does i ll be starting one this summer one way or the other current software i use dosen t support mailing lists but is on the rsn list if not i m going to upgrade to another package that does have it that is if nobody else beats me to it will make an announcement here when it goes up the cutting edge bbs cutting hou tx us a pcboard a system houston texas usa running uupcb
rec.autos	re re toyota land cruiser worth it in article iftccu ca boeing com hovnania iftccu ca boeing com paul hovnanian wrote based on my experience with a fj the hard top jeep style model i would definitely give a new model consideration if i were in the market the older models are very well built unless toyota lost its mind i would assume until proven otherwise that the newer models have inherited some if not all of the qualities of their ancestors two major differences in the running gear that i m aware of need study my has a solid front axle housing whereas the newer models have independant front suspension the solid axle is theoretically stronger and the new cruisers do not have independent suspension in the front they still run a straight axle but with coils the runner is the one with independent front the cruisers have incredible wheel travel with this system more reliable than the newer model but only experience will tell the independant front suspension is no doubt a compromise made to satisfy the typical user who will never need a real utility vehicle the second difference is the type of transfer case used on the newer models i m not sure but i think tioyota went to a full time wd or all wheel drive system the older landcruisers have a lock up type both have their advantages and disadvantages the up cruiser does have full time wd but the center diff locks in low range my brother has a and is an incredibly sturdy vehicle which has done all the trails in moab without a tow the and later is even better with the bigger engine and locking diffs jim chott toyota wd pickup rzaa email sps mot com lemans sport convertible tempe arizona
rec.autos	re toyota land cruiser worth it in article r sbbinn e hp col col hp com tvervaek col hp com tom vervaeke wrote my wife and i looked at and drove one last fall this was a model it was wayyyyyyyyy underpowered i could not imagine driving it in the mountains here in colorado at anything approaching highway speeds i have read that the new models have a newer improved hp engine i m quite serious that i laughed in the salesman face when he said once it s broken in it will feel more powerful i had been used to driving a jeep l hp engine i believe the s land cruisers land yachts were l the sames as the runner which is also underpowered in my the and cruisers run the l straight which only has about hp and lb ft of torque plenty off highway marginal on the highway the has a much improved l straight with hp and ft lb torque they are big cars very roomy but nothing spectacular if you take them on rough trails you ll see the difference the cruiser is an order of magnitude better in off highway ability jim chott toyota wd pickup rzaa email sps mot com lemans sport convertible tempe arizona
rec.autos	any opinions on early s toronado having had my car die on me engine fire insurance agent said it was probably totaled i am in the market for a another vehicle i saw a toronado that was within my expected price range and was wondering if anybody could relate their experiences with me namely does it have accceptable power it has a in it does its being front wheel drive make maintenance difficult one power window and the power seat do not work are these expensive items to replace if i do the work myself how long do the engines usually last m now any other experiences good or bad and opinions thanks ryan kinter kinter scf usc edu
rec.autos	re too fast dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes in article qh m b l armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes if the mustang and or sho platform were designed for mph it would come with better seatbelts more supportive seats a stronger passenger compartment cage better brakes a stiffer suspension different tires and a body design that takes advantage of aero effects to keep the car on the ground in other words it d be a rx yeah and then we d pay go with a lx mustang most bang for your buck
rec.autos	grand national does anyone have one of these that would care to share some information on i concerned about the turbo how reliable is it how s the gas milage please responde to me not here thank you roger
rec.autos	re honda clutch chatter in article apr bnr ca dwjz bnr ca doug zolmer writes in article hpindda cup hp com jimb hpindda cup hp com james bruder writes anyone else experiencing a similar problem this concerns the clutch on a honda accord speed when the clutch is first used in the morning about the first miles of shifting there is a significant amount of clutch chatter until things warm up then the clutch shifts smoothly this chatter started when i moved to the san francisco bay area from a low humidity environment the dealer stated that this is known to happen since honda changed from an asbestos to non asbestos clutch material no remedy seems that moisture on clutch surface causes slipping until the moisture evaporates any comments out there the clutch on my honda civic ex v ex in the u s does this too it s annoying now that i think about it is worse when the humidity is high the dealer also claims there s nothing they can do since the clutch is a self adjusting hydraulic design yeah right one of the reasons i sold my civic vx was the chattery grabby clutch although i din t notice it being any worse in humid weather perhaps because its always humid around here i was told by honda that it has to do with changing from asbestos to non asbestos linings which began around someone could make some good money selling the old fashion variety if it s legal to manufacture them these days my feeling is that since many other car makers do not have this problem that it s a poor design or engineering problem on the part of honda three things to look out for on all honda products clutch chatter bad brake rotors and rusty exhaust systems
rec.autos	re warning please read in article apr is morgan com sergei is morgan com sergei poliakoff writes from sergei is morgan com sergei poliakoff subject re warning please read keywords brick truck danger date thu apr gmt in article apr voodoo ca boeing com tomm hank ca boeing com tom mackey writes in article c joit e bcstec ca boeing com neil bcstec ca boeing com neil williams writes a reformatory for juviniles a few blocks away they caught the year old that did it they put a cover over the overpass what else could they do execute the juvi on the grounds of the reformatory required attendendence by the rest of the inmates as soon as possible after the incident and a quick sure trial i am quite serious cause and effect nothing else will ever make a dent this will not work hitler youth newark teenager car stealing epidemics student riots and other similar cases show that death is not a behaviour shaping or even intimidating factor for teenagers teens defy death i is a strong deterent to the teens that are executed they won t do that again this policy cuts way down on repeat offenders please do not flame me i don t agree with capital punishment for teen s as far as rock throwing is concerned well it is very sad and tragic most of these incidents stem from the fact that these kids are dumb even smarter ones completely lack deductive thinking and can t foresee the consequences of their actions beyond immediate ones unfortunately dumbness and cars whizzing at mph make an explosive mix they are also unsupervised with proper supervision they would not be throwing rocks if parents cannot provide the minimal supervision needed to stop this activity they should not be allowed to have children notice the smiley however i hardly believe there was intent to kill in most of these cases rather desire to see the shattering glass i admit i was mercilessly attacking moscow busses with a slingshot in my tender years akin to a child breaking toys i witnessed several even more endeavouring projects like stacking up bricks on a railroad track technical details of such a venture completely dominate the possibility of a human tradegy heck when you are you have a vague concept of human tradegy in a mind of a youngster i m quite sure that technical challenge of matching and predicting speed of a thrown stone so that it gets the car smack in the windshield completely occupies the teen not leaving much room for other considerations sergei ron stafford texas instruments incorporated p o box ms stafford lobby ti com dallas texas
rec.autos	re v v v v vx s in a previous article smith ctron com lawrence c smith says in article c v md kyp usenet ucs indiana edu mliggett silver ucs indiana edu matthew liggett writes v must be one somewhere believe bugatti s coming has out one something like turbos and mucho macho hp one cool price too as i heard at any rate the point is i m pretty sure there is indeed one in production tho rather limited this is no bugatti it s labeled a bugatti but has nothing to do with the bugatti s of yore from what i understand just some ppl wanting to build a silly supercar and use that name to sell it drew may be thinking of the cizeta morodor v t but that hasn t reached production at least not yet as for the bugatti well i have to agree with matt it ain t the top dog it ain t sexy and svelt looking and it ain t a real bugatti in fact it looks like it s in tight competition with the consulier for the most butt ugly car of the decade award it isn t that bad at least the bugatti eb has compound curves compared to the slab sides on the consulier and the bugatti has a quad turbo v thing of it as three cylinder turbo engines tied together also ettore bugatti s nephew is on the board of directors and had a hand in the development so that s about as much bugatti as you are likely to get in today s world much like enzo ferrari s illegitamate son being allowed to take over part of ferrari as well i don t know of any cars with v but there are a number of motorcycles with them but i couldn t tell you which ones all motorcycles look alike to me d that s funny i have motorcylclist friends who say the same about cages most gp cc motorcycles are v s and the vf line of hondas were all v s from the vf f through the vf f including the rc race bike and the present vfr f it should be noted that lancia built a v in recent history in the fulvia hf a very pretty italian coupe al bowers dod alfa ducati hobie kottke blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes don t you know that girls can t play guitar mary chapin carpenter
rec.autos	re dirty diesels nataraja rtsg mot com writes i heard the diesels are considered cleaner burning than gas engines because the emit less of carbon monoxide hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen co hc nox but they can put out a lot of particulate matter i heard something about legislation being discussed to clean up diesel emissions is there anything in the works to install scrubbers for diesels how about the feasibility of installing them on trucks and cars would it be any different than a catylitic converter i d assume easier since we re removing particulate matter instead of converting gasses let s hear people s opinions vw and mercedes have tinkered with particulate traps also vw uses a kind of turbocharger on their jetta ecodiesel that helps reduce particulates as well although i don t know the mechanics of it many diesel cars busses and trucks in europe are now being equipped with catalysts and traps in an effort to clean up diesel emissions already well below legal limits anyway it s a shame gm had to soil the diesel s reputation in passenger cars and prevent further resource devotion to research into making this outstandingly efficient engine even further ahead of gas engines in emissions erik
rec.autos	re mercury villager minivan good buy in icjps asuacad bitnet icjps asuacad bitnet writes my nissan quest has been doing mpg city though its first few tanks were more like mpg the v and at are remarkably smooth agreed i own a mercury villager and i m very impressed with the v and the at in the past i ve been biased towards manual standard transmissions i owned an aerostar with a speed it was awesome but settled with the at in the villager and have been pleasantly surprised with it s performance btw consumers report in their report on the villager alluded to some funny noises from the at i ve been listening for them but haven t noticed anything unusual chris christopher j born born ralvms vnet ibm com
rec.autos	re drag coefficientsvx s in a previous article gwm spl spl loral com gary w mahan says could someone explain how to make sense of drag coefficients i e cd mentioned in magazines i understand that lower numbers signify better aerodynamics but what does this mean in the real world is there a way to calculate new top speeds assuming the car is not rev limited at top speed or mileage benefits if a identical car had the cd reduced from to it s pretty complex and cd isn t the whole story either cd for cars is usually calculated based on the frontal area of the car so a large car with a good cd could get the same drag force as a smaller car with a poorer cd to calculate drag use this formula d rho v cd s where d is the drag force lbs rho is the local air density slugs ft v is the velocity ft s and s is the frontal area ft note that the pieces called rho v are sometimes called qbar or dynamic pressure a fancy aero term for air pressure or force note that power is p f v where p is power lbf ft s f is the force drag in this case lbf and v is velocity ft s note that if you put the whole equation into one by substituting d for force you get a velocity cubed term that s why huge increases in power result in little increases in speed ditto for decreases in cd so if you have a mph car and reduce cd from to your new top speed is sound of trumpet fanfare mph sorry to dissappoint al bowers dod alfa ducati hobie kottke blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes don t you know that girls can t play guitar mary chapin carpenter
rec.autos	ree mgb questions the whire wheels aren t chromed they were to be painted silver grey the accelerating from a stop shouldn t be doggy because of the light weight of the car don t pull the topto make it reach the snaps i pulled a couple out of the top doing that replacing the spanps usually doesn t work let it sit in th e sun open on the car for a couple hours the try gently i continually blew up the connecting rod bearing be sure your not buring too much oil don t expect too much of a smooth ride the lever arm shocks hold the road and your bladder the are ultra expensive supposedly the can be rebuilt j c whitney sell a shock replacement kit the uses standard shocks i had to rebuid boththe brake and clutch master cylinder in addition to the clutch slave this work made a world of changes be sure the carb is the original type replacement my had dual stomberg oil dampenned side draft carbs ask if the clutch has ever been replaced to replace the engine and tranny have to be pulled as a unit if you need more i had mine all through hiogh school lots of maintenance to use every day
rec.autos	re service indicator of a bmw in article apr westminster ac uk jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas writes derek there is a tool available to reset the service indicator on bmws but the lights will come back on after weeks the tool is in fact illegal in europe atleast it is often the case that the unsuspecting punter trots off to buy a used bmw and a few weeks later all the lights come on other than that i know of no other tool anyone else about changing oil every miles thats ok on newer audis they only require it after every miles i am talking about an oil change just a query do you drive your car very very carefully like no sudden acceleration etc if yeah then the m oil change seems quite reasonable but if you drive kinda fast i d get a bit up tight abot that thingy a point to note just because the first light came on at k doesn t mean all the others will come on every k too shaz shaz hmm but the service indicators that i have works this way there are green yellow red indicators initially all green indicators will be on for few minutes when you start your car the computer will actually sense how you drive your car and as time goes by the green indicators will start to go off one by one and then the yellow indicator will turn on and then the red indicator will go on and you should get service when by the time green indicators are off after service the mechanic or you will reset the service indicators and the computer starts counting again so i expect to have a tool or a procedure to reset it so the green lights will come on and the yellow and red lights will go off i wonder how people can do oil change themself without knowing how to reset the indicator it s the first european car i have and changing oil at miles is a surprise to me and it s a big plus but i wonder how that could happen since the oil lose its lubrication ability over time i thought it s the oil and not the vehicle that determines how often we should change oil any bmw owner on the net response welcomed ps my initial question is how do you seset the service indicator of a bmw derek
rec.autos	re improvements in automatic transmissions in article apr westminster ac uk jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas writes i just wanted to know to wheelspin in an auto you keep the gear in n gas it then stick the gear in d i ve never tried this but am sure it works but does this screw up the autobox we re having a bit of a debate about it here ah yes the neutral slam i know that gm tested the old th s and th s by shifting from reverse to forward gears repeatedly while holding the engine at high rpms the units hold up incredibly well this is also the recommended technique to rock a stuck vehicle out of the mud i think the hydraulics are up to the task but the mechanicals of the driveline may object by breaking something ericy i agree about the durability of the old th trannies from gm while i never intentionally slamed my firebird ci conv into gear i would leave the trannie in low read st grab hold hit the pedal and once the tires grabbed take off when i reached about mph the turbo auto would shift to s read super or nd and leave about to foot of double stripped rubber on the ground most everyone i knew at the time was quite impressed with peeling out at mph the trannie held up just fine motor mounts would last about a year until i tied the motor down with large chains oh yea fyi pontiac ci bored over large valve heads holley spread bore crain blazer cam don t remember the specs positrac hooker headers dual exhaust get this conv leather seats power windows power top ac cruise etc oh yea i also pulled the cocktail shakers weights from the front and removed the lead pellet from the accelerator pedal damn us regulations oh how i miss that car under sec and about to mpg well i don t miss the mpg front wheels off the ground with three quick jabs at the pedal bent pushrods stripped rocker studs every months i really wonder what kind of rev s i was turning no tach re improvements in automatic transmissions anyone seen one of these lately i d buy it back in a sec open top brent
rec.autos	re extensions in article apr ericsson se etxmst sta ericsson se writes i was wondering what the country extension are sometimes i just don t have a clue from where some people are writing these are the extensions i know of ch switzerland se sweden fi finland uk uk com us edu us are both com and edu us fr france please feel free to add to this list markus nz new zealand au australia jp japan kr korea woobin lee image computing system lab woobin u washington edu
rec.autos	re new anti carjacking campaign in article apr freenet carleton ca ae freenet carleton ca nigel allen writes here is a press release from the national crime prevention council the campaign urges drivers to remember to lock up roll up and look around lock car doors immediately after entering or leaving the car roll up windows as far as possible and look around and be alert to avoid situations that are suspicious that reminds me of a blurb in the police blotter in my school paper along the lines of police were called because so and so reported there were suspicious people hangning around the business building turns out it was two black men leaving the building after doing homework late one night
rec.autos	re v v v v vx the devil reincarnate ssave ole cdac com wrote i am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have v engines v i don t know of any v legend mr mr v don t know of any v jaguar xjs please add to the list thanks s ssave ole cdac com
rec.autos	re replacement custom seats where to get in article apr colorado edu jerry bowman bowmanj csn org writes what car are we talking about if its camaro chevelle gto nova etc there are a bunch of places to get them a corvette but i don t want to put corvette seats in it the original seats are in exc shape but they are uncomfortable as hell i m going to store those and find a set to drive in i have all the vette catalogs but i m looking for a more generic type seat i can modify the brackets but cushion height and overall width are a concern i ve looked through some local boneyards without success i would just like to find a pair of cheapo s to use this summer tom
rec.autos	re the mustang you know i m a ford fan i must say so i m looking forward to the next mustang i have faith that it will be a fine product more desireable than the camaro is now you know that s mho true thats your opinion they beat ford to the market with the camaro firebird but really only in words production of these vehicles will be limited until the end of the year keeping selling prices above msrp for the most part since there are so many twitching camaro fans out there i wouldn t press ford to hurry the mustang since the final wait could be worth it besides no bow tie fanatic is gonna buy the mustang anyway true again i wouldn t take a free mustang honest the next mustang will be ford s highest profile car it attracts way more attention than the camaro firebird because it s heritage is more embedded in the general public don t lie to yourself and believe ford will forfeit that fyi they already did too bad that the current mustang can t even compete with the new camaro without using an active imagination right now few cars can compare with the camaro think about it for a car that will out perform all but a few exotics if you are now swearing at me look at the stats they don t lie there are no comparable cars in it s class certinaly not for its price you know intelligent critical spews like the mustang bites man some of you are already beginning i predict that the mustang and camaro will be comparable performers as usual i also agree this subject is one that will never be setteled except maybe at the track unless the ford gets the v hp romeo you don t seriously believe that it was designed for the mark viii only do you hey can you imagine the potential of a modified lt folks in a few years we will surpass the levels of performance achieved in the late s thats scary you ford vs chevy people must live in the planet of detroit or droid like they say in the airforce with enough horsepower anything will fly i can put a valve v with twin garret s on yugo and get sec qm thats useless its still a yugo that will loose any race on a track or on the street have you detroit beings compared the ultra long throw stick shifts of the with the mr turbo or rx i ll buy it in mos or the torsen differential of the rx compared to the differential of the that sounds in every hairpin turn and bythe way and camaro both have drums on the rear breaks hello this is the s vlasis theodore software engineer just say no to signatures
rec.autos	re changing brake fluid is it necessary in article apr gmuvax gmu edu lcarr gmuvax gmu edu wrote hi i ve been seeing all these articles about changing brake fluid and i am wondering if this is really necessary i have an toyota corolla sr with and i am in the process of doing preventative maintenance and i was wondering if this was something that i should add to my list of things to do any information would be greatly appreciated i really love this car and would like to keep it for as long as possible thanx lisa sign me only a manual will do amplifying on jeff goss s answer the absorbed water will rust your brakelines and master cylinder and calipers and you could suddenly lose all your brake fluid
rec.autos	re dirty diesels in article apr virginia edu ejv j virginia edu erik velapoldi writes nataraja rtsg mot com writes i heard the diesels are considered cleaner burning than gas engines because the emit less of carbon monoxide hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen co hc nox but they can put out a lot of particulate matter i heard something about legislation being discussed to clean up diesel emissions is there anything in the works to install scrubbers for diesels how about the feasibility of installing them on trucks and cars would it be any different than a catylitic converter i d assume easier since we re removing particulate matter instead of converting gasses let s hear people s opinions vw and mercedes have tinkered with particulate traps also vw uses a kind of turbocharger on their jetta ecodiesel that helps reduce particulates as well although i don t know the mechanics of it many diesel cars busses and trucks in europe are now being equipped with catalysts and traps in an effort to clean up diesel emissions already well below legal limits anyway it s a shame gm had to soil the diesel s reputation in passenger cars and prevent further resource devotion to research into making this outstandingly efficient engine even further ahead of gas engines in emissions erik i sure don t know what and how they measure in regards to diesel motors in cars trucks and busses but i think they are probably measuring the wrong pollutants or at the wrong time or both i certainly find it offensive to drive behind a diesel bus or diesel truck and some diesel cars they stink and it s always roll up the windows panic time when one comes by or ducks in front of me when i am driving with my family i don t think the combustion mixture is kept under very good control in diesel engines and that s why they stink so the invisible unsmellable pollutants are reduced in diesels yeah well so what someone forgot about the visible stinky kind and as far as i am concerned those kind are just as bad i am all for de stinking the diesel vehicles it ll keep the traffic signs cleaner too fred w bach operations group internet music erich triumf ca triumf tri university meson facility voice loc wesbrook mall ubc campus fax university of british columbia vancouver b c canada v t a these are my opinions which should only make you read think and question they do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers
rec.autos	re mbenz series vw passat go with the mercedes if you can afford it i think the wagon starts around k although it could be k there is no comparison with any of the other cars listed horace dediu gte laboratories sylvan road internet hdediu gte com waltham ma
rec.autos	re viper car alarms in article c fr cdo cs uiuc edu u cs uiuc edu ronald e garnett writes hello auto enthusiasts i recently had more car mangled broken into and decided to get an alarm installed it s a viper and has a shock sensor sensors for each door ignition cutoff and automatic door locks i have this same alarm installed in my syclone it works great the shock sensor is very sensitive but much more practical than the motion sensor i have on my other car it doesn t trigger if the car is rocked gently by the wind but any kind of shock sets it off even kicking the tire sets it off it works great what worries me is the hood and hatch if someone could pry them up gently enough then they could bypass the alarm the shock sensor is adjustable and there are two cycles on it you can adjust it to be sensitive enough that there is no way you could open the hood without setting off the alarm although i know that you cannot pop the hood on the syclone without setting off my alarm now and yet i have had zero none false alarms with this system the alarm tells you when you disarm it whether it has been activated in your absence i have been able to trace every alarm to it s cause and it was not a false alarm i m also wondering how easy it would be for a thief to crawl underneath the car and cut the battery cable to disable the alarm i guess it would be possible depending on the vehicle my syclone is so tight in the engine compartment that it would be tough to do this there are supplemental power supplies you can put on with this viper alarm but i don t have one i really think that if someone wants my car that bad the alarm won t keep them from it even with a supplemental power supply viper also sells some fancy field disturbance sensor that supposedly detects people approcahing the car this is primarily for convertibles i have a convertible and have looked at this feature in detail alpine actually makes a better radar unit if you want to get one of these it has zones in it that can be shut down independently so that if one side of your car has pedestrian traffic or something else that would trigger an alarm it shuts down the zone or rather pulls it in tighter i don t see the real benefit to these unless you have a convertible that you leave the top down on avoid the voice alarm that can be added to the radar package it talks to people as they walk by i saw one installed on a lotus esprit the kids would taunt it seeing how close they could get before it warned them to get back the owner finally disabled it which defeats the purpose in my mind i m interested in the opinions of you netters about these problems and about the viper in general i am real happy with my viper one other feature i really like is you can tune it to your preferences you can have it arm passively or not you can disable the chirp for arming disarming you can have it lock unlock the doors when the alarm is armed disarmed i like these features i hate the chirp when the alarm arms disarms so mine flashes the lights only i like the door lock feature although i have to be careful to take my keys with me because it doesn t know if you have left your keys in the car when it passively arms and locks the doors but if you are meticulous about taking your keys with you it takes care of the rest the car is an ford probe gt that used to be in great shape ron garnett i looked seriously at the alpine system too it is a real nice system but more money and it has a motion sensor standard instead of the shock sensor the shock sensor is better and the viper shock sensor is better cycle than the optional alpine one imho i think the viper gives you a lot of good value for the money but it isn t absolutely tamperproof no system is except maybe the one that james bond had on his lotus in for your eyes only anyone know where we can get one of those installed maybe that was what they had in the van in the world trade center huh merrill
rec.autos	re autofom fomblin a i tried the autofom stuff on my saturn sc and was so disappointed with it that i returned it for a refund i polished the car for hours and couldn t remove the swirl marks thin film that was all over the finish it also attracted more dirt than without the stuff
rec.autos	car alarms which one before we get into another discussion on the relative merits of a car alarm let s go on the assumption that one is desired the question then remains which one i ve owned a hornet and was satisfied but not enough to get another for my new car the alpine has been highly recommended but what about clifford and vse s derringer any others i want all of the standard stuff door lock interface starter kill light flash led valet mode passive active shock motion sensor etc thanks for the advice
rec.autos	funny car taxes was re market access in article r acf nh agate berkeley edu robohen ocf berkeley edu henry robertson writes keep in mind that owning any car in korea is a luxury that only the ruling class can afford every government agency worth its salt finds some reason to levy a tax on car ownership last i heard there were seven different fees to pay to own a car we used to have a tax in greece named after the queen s mother the queen left monarchy was abolished but the tax stuck similar single purpose taxes have stuck i e to help the victims of the earthquake of xx build the metro obmoralconclusion next time someone proposes a car tax or gasoline tax promising it s temporary it ain t spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c st kocrsv delcoelect com software technology delco electronics gm hughes electronics kokomo in i post therefore i armm
rec.autos	changing m t oil on m maxima hello again another question i just got my hands on quarts of readline gear oil at a quart now i need to know how to throw it into my car i own an nissan maxima se any ideas can i mix the oil in there with this stuff or should i drain first then only use this stuff if you know where if there is one the drain plug on the manual transmission on the maxima is i would really appreciate any comments also have any of you maxima owners thied this stuff in your cars thanks in adv sammy
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes i am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have v engines v i don t know of any v s i don t know of any i s and flat s are abundant v legend mr mr a whole h tload minivans pickups just about any car above the subcompact compact range and below the full size range with a few exceptions i s are much more rare now the only one i personally know of that s still in production is the venerable ford cid in the f series pickups i think that jeep s big s are also straight sixes but i m not a big jeep person v don t know of any where are you to not know of v s there are mustangs cadillacs lincolns camaros corvettes thunderbirds all real full size pickups crown vics chevy moby h h h hcaprice and even a few japanese and european vee hickles with v s v dodge viper dodge promises a truck with a v v jaguar xjs don t ferarri and lamborghini both use v s extensively james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article apr telxon mis telxon com joes telxon mis telxon com joe staudt writes in article apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes i am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have v engines v i don t know of any because there is no such thing a friend had a ford taunus era early s that did have a v in it i lost a bet on it i find it hard to believe there are no recent cars with a v in them any recent ones spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c st kocrsv delcoelect com software technology delco electronics gm hughes electronics kokomo in i post therefore i armm
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots in article apr rtsg mot com kissane black john g kissane writes as a matter of interest does anyone know why autos are so popular in the us while here in europe they are rare just wondering primarily milage gas is much more expensive so people are very concerned about it taking a few more liters per kilometer this along with narrow old cities also results in smaller cars with smaller engines these engines usually don t have the torque to mesh well with an automatic so having engines that don t work well with autos and a great concern for milage the usual euro car has a manual note that not many big benzes come with manuals if you ve got the money for the car you ve got the money for the gas and the engine to drive through the slushbox as automatics become more efficient the bigotry is probably reduced still everyone knows how to drive a manual and cars are cheaper with one and it saves a little expensive fuel so there aren t compelling reasons to go automatic db
rec.autos	re too fast this whole discussion is just a religous war i d rather have a rx than the mustang l for times the price that s how you explain porsches selling some folks would rather have the stang shrug sean test signature
rec.autos	re v v v v vx v anyone anyone heard of a cizata v t its mainly sold in the middle east where they dont have as strict a legislation as in the usa and ec
rec.autos	re nissan nomenclature was re manual shift bigots wanted thanx craig in addition to craigs coments and to clear up any further confusion the sx of usa was reffered to as a silvia turbo in the uk performance figures of uk sx are s vmax mph shaz oh one more q you know that new prelude vtec well is there an auto version in the usa i ve heard of them in japan but not uk also do you guys get auto miatas
rec.autos	emergency brake on opel was nissan maxima since we re on the subject of brakes does anyone know why a wd vauxhall opel disengages drive to the rear wheels when the brakes are applied vauxhall boast about how the car is more stable in fwd mode during braking than in wd mode how is this so shaz
rec.autos	re dirty diesels yeah diesels are cleaner than petrol powered cars they even have catalysts fitted to disels now oh and citroen have even launched the first sports diesel car in the world which is probably true if you assume if its for production purposes merc benz had a prototype which runs on diesel back in around it did and read this mph shaz
rec.autos	re thoughts on the vw corrado vr in the ec the corrado vr is rated as best handling car this side of a as it goes i just read an article in autocar motor comparing the vr to a ford probe later to be launched in the uk the vr is more powerful even more so coz its instead of in the ec and more fun to drive etc etc but the probe has a slightly smoother engine thanx mazda mx they sum it up as both cars are fast the vr is a bit more exhilirating to drive but only if you re prepared to work harder shaz
rec.autos	re extensions in article r omsinnnbk ctron news ctron com smith ctron com writes in article gfpftjw iv q vwyv andrew cmu edu daniel u holbrook dh q andrew cmu edu writes these are the extensions i know of ch switzerland se sweden fi finland uk uk com us edu us are both com and edu us fr france dk denmark no norway com and edu are both united states one refers to commercial institutions the other to mental i mean educational institutions gov is also pretty much us it refers to government institutions internet was built on the aarp backbone a us defense contractor network that used the extension i think you mean arpa aarp is the american association of retired persons and i seriously doubt that they d want young whippersnappers building anything on their backbones what with de calcification and all to identify the type of organisation internet extended the convention for other countries but the us retained the old conventions the general convention is that if it doesn t have a country tag on it it s a us site that includes com commercial edu educational mil us military sites gov us gov t non military sites eg nasa sites org anyone who is none of the above there are sites with such tags that are non us sites but they will have the country extension eg xxxx edu au is an extension i saw today us sites can also use the us extension but as mr smith pointed out the internet was built on the arpanet backbone and they default to us sites if there s no country code i would suggest that anyone who didn t know this or wants to know more about it on a non system administrative level check out the book the whole internet user s guide and catalog by ed krol or is it catalog and user s guide i can never remember and my copy is my desk at home it s a very good not necessarily technical guide to the internet and the various utilities that lurk on it including usenet i don t think it s part of the nutshell series but it is published by o reilly and associates this should go to one of the news newsgroups but damned if i can figure out which one james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	radar detectors in the uk did youy guys know that it is legal to own a radar detector but is illegal to use it isn t that a bit like owning a gun but not being allowed to use it my mate just switches his off whenever the cops are around
rec.autos	re comparing saabs bmw s in article r js k biz ecs umass edu suri ganzer ecs umass edu writes hi would someone like to post a comparative analysis quantitative measures hp etc and more so the qualitative feel of how they compare for the driving feel handling noise responsiveness etc for the saab s and the bmw series any comments on just comparing the with the re handling i take it that the saabs and bmw s are comparable for reliability and all that would be nice if flaming wars could be avoided and folks just post their experiences i had a saab turbo and now have a bmw is there is no comparison for handling reliability or overall quality of engineering the bmw wins hands down after years i was sick and tired of the all the little problems and entropic decay of the saab the year old bmw is still as sweet as it was new but i see you are posting from western ma bmw s suck in the snow i have aggressive snows plus a hundred pounds of sand in the back and i still try to avoid driving in the snow i happily took the saab through blizzard conditions without a worry i would say this is the single design flaw in the bmw jonathan edwards edwards intranet com intranet inc
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article apr ns cc lehigh edu amh ns cc lehigh edu alois m himsl writes in article apr jpl devvax jpl nasa gov nancy hayduke nancy feagans writes ashtrays and cigarette lighters these should be an option you forget that the cigarette lighter plug is essential for plugging in radar detectors and lights the ashtrays are also essential because they are great places to keep change and tokens wouldn t you rather have some type of standard electrical plug instead of that fire hazard waiting to happen adaptor i know i would and i would also prefer to have sensibly placed cup holders instead of an ashtray my car came with coin holders already built in ron
rec.autos	re bmw i in article apr westminster ac uk jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas writes in article apr ultb isc rit edu adn ritvax isc rit edu writes the radio does not work untill the car warms up and you honk the horn hahaa hahahah hahahahahahaaaaa i cant stop its killing me hahah i was dead serious when i posted it i actually have an attempt of explanation to this phenomenon but i ll keep you guessing i still want responces of which i got exactly mike s
rec.autos	re v v v v vx cbh windsurf scd ucar edu cris hannu writes in article apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes i am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have v engines v i don t know of any v legend mr mr v don t know of any yeah right the bmw xx are v s or v s can t remember which the auto show was a while ago the is a v l from the il is there a or v jaguar xjs please add to the list thanks s ssave ole cdac com cris hannu windsurfing the high country cray research inc ncar boulder co cbh windsurf scd ucar edu chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast in article apr stdvax oaddab stdvax dirk broer writes still its amazing in germany you can have cars traveling mph and mph on the same to lane road around washington dc they can t keep traffic flowing at actually that d be mph and mph the legal speed limit for trucks in two lanes each direction it s a hell of a rush when those trucks fly by or was that me flying by them who cares the rush is really something else and so is the draft ron
rec.autos	re the mustang vlasis cybernet cse fau edu vlasis theodore writes have you detroit beings compared the ultra long throw stick shifts of the with the mr turbo or rx i ll buy it in mos or the torsen differential of the rx compared to the differential of the that sounds in every hairpin turn or the price tag of the rx vs a mustang part of the definition of a mustang is that it should be affordable by the masses of course ford knows youre argument they own a big piece of mazda take a good look at a mach iii now an rx hhhmmmmm and bythe way and camaro both have drums on the rear breaks hello this is the s that is a tragedy but i don t think new camaros or the new mustangs will steve alan kulwicki winston cup champion
rec.autos	re mr seats for sale in article apr noao edu groves noao edu lee groves writes from article apr ultb isc rit edu by adn ritvax isc rit edu i have a pair of sport seats from mr for sale blue black as the owner of an mr and having several friends who own them i am very uncomfortable when i see an ad like this i have known several people who have lost the seats from their mr in the middle of the night to support the celica retro fit trade and the insurance companies have been very miserable to deal with in all cases when these seats are seen for sale they are most often stolen so it would be nice to see a statement saying where they came from that would at least help to soothe the reflexive fear that someone is making a buck at someone elses expense i ll give this seller the benefit of the doubt but people should be aware the the vast majority of mr seats on the market especially those that are in celicas are stolen lee btw they are incredible seats so if it s legit go for it i am the original owner of the seats and the original poster i take very serious offence in your statement i see a lot of computers advertized on the net and my friend just had been releived of his machine all the net computer ads are for stolen computers where did you learn logic as for the seats they were replaced by a much harder literally celica gts seats due to my back problem that is why i had to reuse the mr brackets and that s why the mr seats i sell are attached to celica brackets please in the future think before you make allegations like the above it hurts mike s
rec.autos	re super mega automobile sighting s exotics together in article r f qinnk phantom gatech edu grahamt phantom gatech edu graham e thomas writes jmm h virginia edu the blade runner writes a gt gotta be in my top favorite cars of all time list where is this place was the car for sale come on i need details or not anyways i just had to say wow at the sighting of such a fine beast but remember the mustang will forever be the true king of the road the place was in what used to be a small town now a suburb north of atlanta i don t know if the car was for sale or not you wouldn t put a price on the window on this type of car anyway damn straight as far as i ve heard unless the owner is very hard up the gt s are not for sale at any price that mere mortals could afford and maybe the mustang will be forever king of the road the gt isn t road legal i think the gt actually is street legal although that particular question is moot see the price figures below this car was right hand drive weren t they all like that how much does a gt go for how many were made i wish i could find my shelby american guide it included the gt registry as of or so there were precious few of them made fifty is the number that springs to mind they made just enough to qualify for the manufacturer s cup or whichever series it was that shelby broke ferarri s year winning streak in in and they are all accounted for the last price i saw estimated on a gt was a little bit over yes that s right one million us dollars it was second only to some worthless piece of ferrari that it would blow the doors off of i don t recall off hand what the drive configuration was although i m certain some must have been lhd as they had to be sold to qualify for racing the drivertrain was the ford hi riser i think and or side oiler coupled to various speed transmissions they also used speed manuals they had lots of problems with the original trannys breaking under the load of the layout was rear engine rear drive with the bundle of snakes exhaust headers i can remeber other bits and pieces of info but i can t remember whether they applied to the gt or the shelby cobra daytona coupe i ll try and find that reference james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	mg t series for sale mg tf with frame up restoration in early s a local show winner driven very little and stored inside since then mostly collected dirt dust needs attention to brake cylinders like all mg t s but otherwise ready to run chrome paint not fancy but it is mechanically excellent the engine a cc was completely overhauled by a machine shop it is priced at mg td good shape but hasn t been run since s needs engine work but no rust and everything is with it including a top side curtains and carpet that were new and haven t seen the outdoors since the s mg td basket case i d call it a parts car but it s too good for that everything seems to be there except the tach would make a good project car or parts car if you insist no apparent rust but the upholstery is a disaster stored inside since the s the top was new but now soso this one has wire wheels looking for all three cars will be sold as they stand with no hassles or haggles time has passed by and it is time to part company prices are negotiable reply via matthews oswego oswego edu or u s mail to p o box oswego ny harry matthews k aou wrvo wrvn wrvj internet matthews oswego oswego edu learning resources satellite tv bitnet matthews snyoswva s u n y college cable tv voice mail oswego ny alloy ntnx pc mho s are mine not s u n y oswego s
rec.autos	re horizontally opposed boxer engines was v v v v vx in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian j queiser writes none of the configurations are perfectly inherently balanced which is what i was talking about balance shafts and mass on either ends of the cranks can eliminate these forces moments which is something i also pointed out and didn t you also say that it was easier to add masses than to add balance shafts the sad truth is that some makers don t bother to put balance shafts on their big shaky s the three cranks i refer to i i i even firing deg k j fp mp fs r l zcos t ms j j flat even firing deg k i fp mp fs a crank spacing ms a r l zcos t j j flat even firing deg k i fp mp azcost fs ms how about if this is ridiculous kindly explain why it s been more than years since i studied this stuff flat s and i s both have the potential to be nearly vibration free because subaru does that has nothing to do with i s in general or porsche i think subaru somehow connecting themselves to porsche is an absurdity and i m not a porsche fan big wing dings these configurations overhead cams etc etc etc have been around for nearly years the point that they are trying to make is that while everybody settles for the orthodox inline they are using a horizontally opposed which is unique in that market segment and porsche also uses a flat six in their so what s the problem i don t see any claim that their engine is as good as a porsche s they are simply pointing out that they use the same configuration as a porsche if you want to nitpick ad campaigns i think there are far more blatant excesses than this eliot
rec.autos	re service indicator of a bmw thanks for all the recommendations i have decide to ignore the service indicators and do oil change myself every miles thanks again for all the responses derek
rec.autos	new mercedes diesels hi fellow auto enthusiasts does anyone have any info on the new valve per cylinder diesels mercedes is working on any specs on outputs engine size will they be direct or indirect injection etc would be welcome from what i hear these should be out late this year next year thank you in advance for your replies harjeet hsk microplex com
rec.autos	re replacement custom seats where to get in article c uqs h usenet ucs indiana edu tom wetzel twetzel ucs indiana edu writes in article apr colorado edu jerry bowman bowmanj csn org writes what car are we talking about if its camaro chevelle gto nova etc there are a bunch of places to get them a corvette but i don t want to put corvette seats in it the original seats are in exc shape but they are uncomfortable as hell i m going to store those and find a set to drive in i have all the vette catalogs but i m looking for a more generic type seat i can modify the brackets but cushion height and overall width are a concern i ve looked through some local boneyards without success i would just like to find a pair of cheapo s to use this summer tom call around to some wrecking yards in your area and if they have any look at fiero seats they are right down on the floor like a vette and not too wide if you can t find any let me know and i ll call around here for you i m sure these yards ship stuff all the time
rec.autos	re ultimate awd vehicles in article bcd b ecs umass edu sylveste ecs umass edu writes before the s became the s it was called the turbo quattro v this model did come in a wagon a very quick wagon very rare also mike sylvester umass being a satisfied audi owner turbo quattro my th audi i get the free vag magazine the latest issue presented a new s avant wagon with a litre v i d like one of these btw this is my second quattro and my third turbo and i must say that even in the summer with dry roads the quattros give so much extra in road holding and balance that i hope i can afford them always thomas real life thomas t rnblom email thomas tornblom nexus comm se snail mail communicator nexus ab phone box fax s uppsala sweden
rec.autos	after market sunroofs power moonroof big type who makes the best hello all i know that after market sunroofs may have left a bad taste in some of your mouths but i am really interested in finding a good brand if one exists please let me know if you have heard of any makers with a good reputation few failures no leaks that sort of thing and whether or not you have had first hand experience with that manufacturer who is generally regarded in the industry as the best price no object maker of power sunroofs steve steve bonsib reply to sbonsib cac stratus com stratus computer marlboro ma
rec.autos	wanted toyota previa all trac low miles i m looking to buy a toyota previa all trac with low miles if you are selling one or want someone to buy out an existing lease please contact me by mail will estes internet westes netcom com
rec.autos	centreforce clutch any one with experience in having a centreforce clutch or any other on his her car i m considering to replace my old stock clutch on my crx si what is a fair price martin
rec.autos	re chevy gmc x fullsize pickups opinions dick grady grady world std com wrote i am considering buying a chevy or gmc x full size pickup with the extended cab any opinions about these vehicles have there been any significant problems dick grady salem nh usa grady world std com so many newsgroups so little time i bought a brand new chevrolet k hd x extended cab last may it has had many many problems see my earler post that describes the situation i went to bbb arbitration and they ruled that chevrolet must buy it back from me if you do get one stay away from the speed manual with the deep low first gear they have put three of them in my truck so far after about miles overdrive either starts rattling or hissing loudly there is no way to fix them chevrolet says that the noise is a characteristic of the transmission also if you are planning to use your truck to tow the gear ratios in that tranny suck on a steep hill you get up to about mph in second gear at rpm yellow line if you shift to third the rpm drop to only and you begin to loose speed i should point out that the v they put in the hd gvw trucks is a detuned motor compared to the one they put in the light duty ones they dropped the compression ratio supposedly for engine longevity reasons so the light duty may pull better than my truck does other things that have gone wrong include the ventilation fan times so far paint had specs of rust embedded in the paint from being shipped by rail with no covering and suspension parts link between stabilizer and control arm fell off any company can make a bad individual car chevrolet included what really bothered me was the way they reacted they made no attempt to deal with me except to tell me to take it back to the dealer for them to attempt to fix it one more time so i bought a brand new ford f hd super cab with a and an automatic i will never buy another chevrolet jackw hpdmd boi hp com
rec.autos	high mileage audi question a question for any high mileage audi owners out there i am interested in buying a audi s for cdn the reason the car is selling for so little is that is has km on it just under mi the car s owner claims the car is in good condition my question is how reliable are audi s with mileage that high would it be worthwhile for me to buy the car any problem areas that i should look out for any help would be greatly appreciated post responses and or e mail me thanks steve hui
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes i am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have v engines v i don t know of any v legend mr mr vw golf passat l vr inline v very narrow angle deg one head audi l v v don t know of any audi v l some mbs some bmws v jaguar xjs bmw mb please add to the list thanks s ssave ole cdac com real life thomas t rnblom email thomas tornblom nexus comm se snail mail communicator nexus ab phone box fax s uppsala sweden
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes the subarus all use degree vees in their engines eliot wouldn t that make them an i or would they really be an henceforth referred to as underscore kenneth finnegan nrlssc navy mil
rec.autos	re impala ss going into in a previous article george howell goucher wb ffv ampr org george howell says gm has always screwed the rest of the divisions in favor of the corvette the current platform is no exception the detuned camaro and firebird is a load of crap to keep people from realizing that they can buy one of these instead of a corvette and save about i like the idea of an impala ss but if they really wanted to impress me they would throw in a big phat imagine the cops in their taurus police package and litres as they stare at your taillights gimme a break you know chevy d screw that up just like that almost great truck with the big phat have you ever seen the mufflers on that thing it s amazing it moves which isn t to say it s not a good idea but i m quite sure chevy d screw it up the same way drew george howell m m ooo ppp aaa rrr mm mm o o p p a a r r m m m o o ppp aaaaa rrr m m o o p a a r r m m ooo p a a r r ford better living through american horsepower george howell george howell goucher wb ffv ampr org
rec.autos	re questions about insurance companies esp geico wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes my car was recently destroyed in a hail storm i fully expected to get jerked around by the insurance company i wasn t the only one who had hail damage state farm opened its claim centers on evenings and weekends and flew down additional adjusters from dallas i have no experience with state farm but i think it s important to differentiate your experience from a typical accident hail damage is clearly not the fault of the owner and also tends to be well publicized in the media so it s to the ins co s benefit to respond promptly and helpfully damage like this doesn t imply anything about the likelihood of future claims unless you live in an area that gets frequent damaging hail storms so there s no reason for them to stop covering you that s a lot different from at fault accidents or theft related claims which may be more indicative of claim patterns
rec.autos	re warped brake discs on taurus l from bsw utrc utc com bruce s winters subject re warped brake discs on taurus l in the past few years i have owned mustang gts and now own a t bird sc they all have had this problem there was a recall on the t bird for the brake problem the ford dealer replaced the rotors and pads but the rotors warp after about k miles between this problem and the fit and finish problems on the t bird i ll never buy a ford again i just had my rotors on my taurus gl changed less than miles ago and you guessed it i m noticing slight warpage in the left rotor i had a mechanic friend of mine look at it and he said that there is a high spot on the rotor that is causing the problem this is a brand new rotor bought from a ford dealership can t they even produce a brand new rotor that is not warped i m currently negotiating with them to swap it out for a new rotor this is my first american build car and i m not overly impressed tony name antonio l balsamo company digital equipment corp shrewsbury mass work e mail balsamo stargl enet dec com
rec.autos	v engines on the subject of the v ford in the uk used v engines exstensively in their ford transit vans this brings back a memory from the seventies i played in a band at the time and for something like pounds four of us bought a tranny to cart the gear around in it was in terrible shape cosmetically because it s last owner was a pig farmer we spent days cleaning it up and putting in a partition and more seating but til the day it died everytime you turned on the fan to the defroster dried pig shit came flying out the vents back to the engine if i remember right it was a cc v and that thing could haul we could fill it with equipment and up to people and it went like a bat out of hell of course there were no pollution controls on the engine and the gas was leaded and higher octane than we get now when the mechanical fuel pump quit we put in an electric one from a morris minor that worked great ah fond memories pwe slipknot mit edu i d like to own a squadron of tanks paul w emery ron nasty the rutles m i t magnet lab cambridge mass u s a costellobeatlesspinaltapfawltytowersmuttsavengersstartrek tngenglandrutles
rec.autos	re lemon law does anyone know the law kchupp kchupp kevin chupp writes my father is have lots of problems with a year old van what is the lemon law what should he do if he qualifies talk to philip greenspun he took ford to court recently and despite much manouvering and trickery on ford s part he won well actually i think ford settled out of court on the provision he shut his mouth and stopped causing them trouble i love it when the little guy wins i don t have philip s address anymore but a philip where are you call may bring him out of hiding cheers paul paul heuer phone avionics technology dsto pzh aeg dsto gov au fax po box salisbury south australia
rec.autos	re mr seats for sale in article apr ultb isc rit edu adn ritvax isc rit edu writes in article apr noao edu groves noao edu lee groves writes as the owner of an mr and having several friends who own them i am very uncomfortable when i see an ad like this when these seats are seen for sale they are most often stolen so it would be nice to see a statement saying where they came from i ll give this seller the benefit of the doubt but people should be aware the the vast majority of mr seats on the market especially those that are in celicas are stolen i am the original owner of the seats and the original poster i take very serious offence in your statement me thinks thee dost protest too much please in the future think before you make allegations like the above he made no allegations and specifically gave the seller the benefit of the doubt he simply made the net aware of the fact that many of these seats are stolen so watch out and ask questions when buying that s good advice to follow when buying anything from a third party on the net or elsewhere it hurts touchy touchy mike s alex ridgway
rec.autos	re the mustang in article apr virginia edu jmm h virginia edu the blade runner writes i just have got to remind all of you that this is it yes that s right somtime this fall ford the granddaddy of cars will be introducing an all new mega cool way too fast for accord drivers mustang it s supposed to be streamlined looking similar to the mach iii concept car ford came out with around january i can t wait anyone out there hear anything about it recently if everything i ve read is correct ford is doing nothing but re skinning the existing mustang with minor suspension modifications and the pictures i ve seen indicate they didn t do a very good job of it the new mustang is nothing but a re cycle of a year old car jeff
rec.autos	re service indicator of a bmw dchan cisco com derek chan writes in article apr westminster ac uk jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas writes derek there is a tool available to reset the service indicator on bmws but the lights will come back on after weeks the tool is in fact illegal in europe atleast it is often the case that the unsuspecting punter trots off to buy a used bmw and a few weeks later all the lights come on other than that i know of no other tool anyone else shaz hmm but the service indicators that i have works this way there are green yellow red indicators initially all green indicators will be on for few minutes when you start your car the computer will actually sense how you drive your car and as time goes by the green indicators will start to go off one by one and then the yellow indicator will turn on and then the red indicator will go on and you should get service when by the time green indicators are off after service the mechanic or you will reset the service indicators and the computer starts counting again so i expect to have a tool or a procedure to reset it so the green lights will come on and the yellow and red lights will go off i wonder how people can do oil change themself without knowing how to reset the indicator it s the first european car i have and changing oil at miles is a surprise to me and it s a big plus but i wonder how that could happen since the oil lose its lubrication ability over time i thought it s the oil and not the vehicle that determines how often we should change oil any bmw owner on the net response welcomed ps my initial question is how do you seset the service indicator of a bmw derek there is a perfectly legal tool available to reset the bimmer service lights it will cost you from a mailorder and buying one far outweighs the possible consequences of destroying all the electronics if you try di it yourself you wonder how people do an oil change without knowing how it reset why is reseting so important the only reason for doing it is stop the annoyance of a red light staring at you forget this in european cars you only need to change the oil every crap anyone serious about keeping their engine in good shape and extending its life will change it every inc filter don t wait for the servive lights to come on before servicing the car i bought a bmw about months ago it had green lights on i have changed the oil every completly flushed brake fliud changed all filters oil air and fuel changed transmission and drive oils and done almost all of the other things req for service and a service after nearly miles i am still on green lights after a winter in burlington and it is snowing today that is not bad good luck blair blair e robertson a new zealander in vermont university of vermont posting his own ideas medical research facilty smooth muscle ion channel group colchester vermont email blair northpole med uvm edu telephone
rec.autos	how good is car wash wax question what s your experience with car wash wax this is the liquid type of wax in bottles that you pour it in water sponge it on you car hose it off and dry it with cloth many people have used it it is very easy to work with and gives seeminly the same visual results as that of paste type of wax but does it last long does it have any negative effects to car paint can you forward your reply directly to my email id thanks james
rec.autos	re review ford taurus sho in article uupcb cutting hou tx us david bonds cutting hou tx us david bonds writes gk occasionally i have trouble shifting into reverse the shifter gk refuses to enter the gate and i often grind the synchros trying to gk get it into gear i ll be watching this carefully in the next couple gk of months enter st wait seconds and then go into reverse they use the same synchros and you ll never at least i haven t ground em to fit when using this technique or do like the manual says and put it in rd first then you can quickly go into reverse no waiting mark mark rice mark rice columbiasc ncr com my views
rec.autos	re broncos does anybody have any information on the second generation broncos i m not talking about bronco ii s i m referring to the broncos that began production in based on the f chassis i believe ahh broncos well personally i have a the blue book is just a hair over grand i bought it for and then bought new tires front end rebuild carb rebuild then i did the unthinkable and blew the engine not bronco specific unmaintained engine with more bucks there now it is in nice condition well after new seats out of a t bird radio amps speakers alarm well the radio and amps were free and i bought the speakers used for bucks and the other speakers i took out of my old jeep sell a jeep for a bronco you might ask but it was a wagoneer its a lovely specimen solid front and rear axels ford and a dana up front watch the rear axel wrap i busted off my u bolts once i added traction shocks after that and haven t had a problem since also the bottom of the doors tend to rot bottom of the tailgates likes to rust right up to the new ones that might be in your budget the post broncos have that sickly ttb front end and little stamped and folded steel radius arms were as the have nice big cast iron longer radius arms ie more prspective wheel travel the only rust i have is on my doors and a few dings in the sheet metal i don t know when the removeable tops were discontinued but they are fun i just ordered a full convertable top for for mine credit card don t ever break the window if you have the double laminated bronzed privacy glass in your cap it is over bucks to replace my bronco also does pretty good offroad i haven t bottomed out my suspension yet and have crossed over foot deep of water with no problems handles rocks like a charm too one problem is it is wide and you sometimes can t follow a cj or a toyota between two rocks or trees and your grandmother will have a hard time getting up into it bob
rec.autos	re rfi art of clutchless shifting in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu sjcostan magnus acs ohio state edu scott j costanzo writes he was as smooth as silk it was the most amazing shifting demonstration i ve ever seen having said all that i still don t know why anyone would want to shift a synchronized tranny without a clutch why do it ego trip mark walker my old man always said mwalker chama eece unm edu too much is just right home guess that applies to my preferences albuquerque nm in performance cars
rec.autos	re rfi art of clutchless shifting in article lrr psuvm psu edu lrr psuvm psu edu writes i have they showed the foot cam and telemetry for rusty wallace shifting at at lanta last year and he never touched the clutch except very slightly when down shifting hp is pretty powerful to me i doubt his trans uses standard syncros there are several mechanisms for coupling a gear with the transmission output shaft some of which are fine for racing and unsuitable for street use mark walker my old man always said mwalker chama eece unm edu too much is just right home guess that applies to my preferences albuquerque nm in performance cars
rec.autos	re lexus and infiniti in article afqzkhs iv e yiss andrew cmu edu joseph d mazza mazz andrew cmu edu writes btw i just saw the new q on tv this weekend the big changes a grille has been added looks nice too and some wood for the interior otherwise it looked largely unchanged they changed the lights and slope of the hood along with the new grille otherwise it is unchanged interestingly their lack of wood and lack of a grille was a big design statement they tried to defy conventional wisdom and carve their own niche unfortunately sales were only half those of the lexus and hence they now join the pack i still wonder if much of the problem wasn t the slow start from the initial ad campaign personally i like the q without the grille steve morris m a internet smorris sumax seattleu edu addiction studies pgm uucp uw beaver uunet gtenmc dataio sumax smorris seattle university phone dept or direct seattle wa
rec.autos	info about audi used i am thinking of buying a used audi auto these cars look good and audi do have a good rep for these cars in europe where i m from i was just wondering if there anything about these cars that i should know parms
rec.autos	question about integra auto box i m new to this group and this may have been discussed already in which case my apologies but i have a integra with an auto box according to the manual the car has a lock up torque converter or something similar what is it what does it do and how does it work excuse my ignorance does anybody know parms no sig yet
rec.autos	new integra for i ve heard unconfirmed rumours that there is a new integra being released for does anybody have any info on this the local sales people know as much as i can throw them parms still no sig
rec.autos	re driver s seat best cars of the year tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes the golf also won ajac s automobile journalists association of canada car of the year award and unless i am mistaken i screwed up my borrowed vcr and got the first minutes the corrado slc was awarded ajac s sports sporty car of the year mattias tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo ont stick your index fingers into both corners of your mouth now pull up that s how the corrado makes you feel car january mattias hembruch my views do not necessarily reflect those of the tse e mail mhembruc tse com
rec.autos	re rfi art of clutchless shifting in a previous article lusky ccwf cc utexas edu jonathan r lusky says in article lrr psuvm psu edu lrr psuvm psu edu writes i m not familiar with the trannies used in winston cup but in the trans am cars i ve played with the transmissions were the racing variety with dog clutches instead of sychros in a transmission with dog clutches the gears are always engaged with each other and moving the dog clutches engages the gears to the shafts motorcycle transmissions are the same way shifting without the clutch on a transmission with syncros can and will cause transmission damage the only question being how long it takesto grenade something for the trans in my pulsar se it was about k miles but it had a weak tranny in the first place just out of curiosity how is this dog clutch any different from a synchro transmission what you described sounds the same to me in fact what little i ve studied on trannies the instructor referred to the synchros as dogs and said they were synonymous the gears are always meshed in a synchronized gearbox and you slip the synchro gears back and forth by shifting or at least that is what i was taught explain por favour thanx drew ps email s fine if this is inappropriate for here or if i m the only bonhead who doesn t know the diff
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in a previous article finnegan nrlssc navy mil says in article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes the subarus all use degree vees in their engines eliot wouldn t that make them an i or would they really be an henceforth referred to as underscore i think that it is technicaly known as a degree vee configuration could be wrong this is how i ve seen them referred to drew
rec.autos	which radar detector should i buy i just entered the market for a radar detector and am looking for any all advice recommendations warnings etc from anyone in this group email is preferred thanks
rec.autos	re viper car alarms u cs uiuc edu ronald e garnett writes ron viper also sells some fancy field disturbance sensor that ron supposedly detects people approcahing the car ron if your viper system were tuned like a neighbor s is you wouldn t get any sleep because of the damn thing waking every one in the neighborhood up we all used to try to ignore the alarm but have now made a pact to bombard the house with night time visits and phone calls when ever we are awakened because some thunder storm passed over the next county or a stray dog looked at the car car alarms are a serious pain in the ass ks p s real men don t have car radios since the exhaust is too loud to hear it anyway grin k a sturrock anthropology georgia state university ksturroc gsu edu
rec.autos	gts headlight covers i have a eagle talon and i wanted a pair of gts headlight covers actually they are turning signal covers since the talons that year had pop up lights i went to a auto shop and bought the tail light blackouts for but they did not have the turning signal covers in stock i asked how much it would be and he told me it would cost me another i thought this was a bit high for two small pieces of plastic can anyone find me a cheaper pair or even a used one jay cadiz cadiz marble rtsg mot com motorola inc arlington heights il
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in a previous article thomas tornblom nexus comm se thomas tornblom says in article apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes i am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have v engines v i don t know of any v legend mr mr vw golf passat l vr inline v very narrow angle deg one head audi l v v don t know of any audi v l some mbs some bmws v jaguar xjs bmw mb please add to the list thanks s ssave ole cdac com real life thomas t rnblom email thomas tornblom nexus comm se snail mail communicator nexus ab phone box fax s uppsala sweden drew
rec.autos	re manual xmission advice needed i don t think that a transmission fluid change will solve your problem unless you are in an extremely cold climate and using a very heavy weight fluid follow the manufacturer s recommended oil weight some of the cars i have had all standard transmissions or speeds recommend changing the transmission fluid at miles under normal driving conditions i ve gone without changing the transmission oil and had to replace the transmission bearings my older cars used weight oil whereas my honda uses motor oil or maybe weight
rec.autos	re changing brake fluid is it necessary i agree with jeff s reply i ve never changed the brake fluid except when having a brake job which is usually at around miles alot of freeway driving however i will start to do this as preventative maintenance on my new car also there are brake system flushing agents that can be used but the problem is that if any of the agent is left in the system it can cause problems so it s been recommended not to use them unless you are certain that you can remove all of the flushing agent just for your info i was quoted a price of labor and fluid for flushing the brake system this in conjunction with a break job so i don t know if it was more without the brake job this is in the s f bay area
rec.autos	re vibration when brakes are applied hi javier how are things at corp my old stomping ground was c level vibration when applying the brakes can be caused on disc brakes at least by warped rotors when the brakes are applied there results uneven pressure on the rotor turning the rotors by a brake shop will remedy this problem as long as there is enough rotor width left for turning i e within spec there could be some possible front end suspension problem but a brake shop should be able to confirm warped rotors by a visual inspection which is free
rec.autos	re mercury villager minivan good buy in article r cr innvar sumax seattleu edu smorris sumax seattleu edu steven a morris writes the villager quest seem like the best of the cravan voyager copies to come along since the mazda mpv the nissan maxima engine paired with the maxima speed auto trans should be an excellent drive train and the rest of the vehicle seems well engineered only the price is controversial hmm the last time i checked villager quest does not have a maxima engine and is very much under powered for its weight
rec.autos	re v engines in article apr ll mit edu singer ll mit edu matthew r singer writes didn t the saab sonnett have a v i recall someone telling that it was something like of a ford not only the sonett correct spelling but the wagon and sedan used a cc or cc v from ford of germany this particular motor had a degree vee angle a balance shaft and siamesed exhaust ports this motor was later stretched into the v commonly seen in the capri the v could make pretty reasonable power for its size but in the saab it made too much torque for the transmission which had been designed for a cylinder stroke chuck fry former sonett iii owner chuck fry chucko freud arc nasa gov this space for rent i alone bear responsibility for the claptrap above
rec.autos	ford explorer question and suv review ok so in my ongoing search for a sport utility here s the latest toyota runner small small small small the interior of this vehical is impossible for a large person too bad it would have been the winner otherwise nissan pathfinder very low ceiling my head hit the roof fun on bumps no also has a cheap looking interior isuzu trooper class act this is a really really nice vehical very comfortable handled ok has really cool grab handles everywhere but it s huge and the engine is a bit too small for it s bulk also the manual shift is weird and kind of awkward i d buy this if it were k cheaper or shorter but at this size and for this price no i kept picturing trying to park in in san francisco no thanks chevy blazer cheap looking small not as small as the toyota and nissan but still too small ford explorer this is no sports car and it s certainly not for the serious off roader but it s big enough to be comfortable without being as huge and heavy as the trooper it s engine has plenty of power for everyday driving though it would be nice if it had a bit more the automatic tranny is pretty nice head and shoulders above my mazda mpv the steering is not as tight as i d like but it s acceptable the two door has easy to enter back seats easier to get into in fact than the driver s seat of the runner and with a shorter wheelbase and the easier availability of a manual tranny yes i m a manual shift biggot i admit it it s the one i m thinking of buying so that said is there anyone out there who has one of these and hates it anyone had any major problems heard any horror stories also any reason to buy the ford over the mazda navajo both being essentially the same vehical thanks karl karl elvis macrae software release support cisco systems kmac cisco com or batman cisco com dod fj shovels and rakes and implements of destruction arlo guthrie
rec.autos	corvette car cover for sale i m not sure if this made it out so i ll try again i have an ecklar s sp corvette car cover for sale the cover is canvas on the outside and felt on the inside it is weather proof and in great condition i m asking and i ll pay shipping originally in october of carl mercer cm cci com evening day
rec.autos	re new integra for in article c ypt d tsegw tse com pbhandar tsegw tse com parminder bhandari writes i ve heard unconfirmed rumours that there is a new integra being released for does anybody have any info on this the local sales people know as much as i can throw them parms still no sig here we go again now these are just rumors so dont quote me new integra supposedly wedge shaped again hp and all wheel drive in top models then a variant called the zx r comes later roadster i think it gets unveiled at end of summer nothing about an airbag was mentioned but im sure it ll have one along with a nice hefty increase in sticker
rec.autos	re car buying story was christ another dealer service scam in article apr newsgate sps mot com rapw email sps mot com writes before you go in find out the invoice prices of the car add a reasonable profit for the dealer offer them that price and stick to it whoa watch your terminology dealer invoice is not dealer cost you ll hear lots of ads screaming two dollars over dealer invoice sounds like a real deal huh no you know what the dealer invoice also called factory invoice is it s a piece of paper with numbers on it that the factory sends the dealer what do the numbers signify absolutely nothing it s a marketing gimmick that the salesman can wave in your face to impress you note that nowhere on the invoice does it claim to be the real price of the car and most ads which mention dealer invoice will end with a very fast low voice saying something like invoice may not reflect actual dealer cost actually i guarantee it does not reflect actual dealer cost also the reasonable profit for dealer is usually around three percent adjust according to the dealer cost of the car and any options that you want haggle like hell with the salesman over the cost of dealer prep and protection package i e a few squirts of paint and fabric protectant while you re at it ask the salesman to toss in a thing or two that doesn t cost him any cash my wife and i got a joyride in a twin turbo mitsubishi gt when we bought our mitsubishi mini van
rec.autos	ford probe import car of the year okay okay i know the ford probe is made in the us in fact it s made in michigan at a mazda plant my question are most of the parts from american or japanese sources i have been told that most of the us assembly plants for japanese automakers import almost all of the parts used in the vehicles any information anyone has on this will be appreciated tim newman newman cps msu edu
rec.autos	re best radar detector in article apr westminster ac uk jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas writes hi now that we have these gatso photo speed traps here i was wondering if anyone knows if radar detectors are capable of detecting photo cameras if not are there any other devices which will yup radar detectors that detect ka band will pick up photo radar as it s reflected from some poor slob ahead of you that just got nailed btw many photo radar installations in the southern u s became targets for high powered rifles or had their lenses decorated with cow flop etc not that i m advocating destruction of public property but you get the picture later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.autos	re plug wires do they really need replacement in article rgvv am haven umd edu vadik cs umd edu vadim maslov wrote hi netters i went to all tune and lube for routine maintenance and they said i need to change plug wires because they are original ones and you driven k miles on them i had a strong suspicion that they just wanted to make money wires had no visible defects and my repair manual doesn t recommend any scheduled maintenance for them is it plain vanilla rip off or there can be some backing behind their suggestion to replace wires i have ford taurus vadim maslov i once had a sparking problem with my mustang and simply changing the spark plug wires fixed it philip bush national champion motorola inc schaumburg il sho convention show email cpb email mot com rd place concours phone judged
rec.autos	re ford probe opinions centered around the gt in article heiser acs bu edu bill heiser writes in article chuck eos ncsu edu chuck kesler writes jeremy g mereness zonker cmu edu says can anyone offer any opinions of the ford probe ala how they do in the long run repair records reliability mileage etc i ve found mine probe gt to do quite well window problem deleted artical has been trimmed i have had my probe looked at twice by my local dealer where i purchased the car the first time they made this problem worse the second time after advising them of the service bulletin mentioned on my ford probe mailing list they said they didn t know of the bulletin they adjusted the window and made it much better however it now makes a scritch scritch noise on rough roads and still squeals when i open close the window in wet weather anyone elses s do this i ve not had any of the air or leakage problems that have been reported but do get the squeal that bill describes i live in seattle so the wet weather may be a factor ford only gives key with the car c mon ford spend an extra few pennies if i recall correctly i got two keys horn buttons behind air bag in spokes and not in center personal preference you ve got to position the fingers perfectly to make it beep buttons are terrible this is true i m wondering if this may be a safety concern ie if people pound on the place where the airbag lives speaking of the horn i was surprised to find that the probe comes with one of those nice merican sounding horns instead of the japanese sounding kind the previous probes had japanese horns no opinion transmission the speed is a must i have always been a speed guy almost every car i ve ever owned has been a speed because i got a good deal on this car with the miles i knowingly overlooked the fact that it has an automatic but it is a pretty high tech automatic it is a fully electronicaly controlled speed with the speed is much more fun we opted for the automatic for a number of reasons but it s still fun and in some ways more practical no shake rattle noises when going over bumps potholes still ditto shakes and rattles has been my main gripe i ve gotten them to fix the worst of them but i fear that with the rather harsh ride the car will be a virtual potpouri of rattles when it gets older i too would suspect that this may be true tires vr goodyear eagles left hoping for k very very very well it sticks to the road like glue even on a rough surface yes interior is very very nice too very pleasing to the eye and ergonomically sound definitely ford mazda did a very very nice job on this one the car has a much more expensive than it actually is look and feel to it ditto yes this car s stiff suspension isn t for everyone i personally like it but if you find it a little harsh but otherwise like the car i d strongly suggest looking into the mx agree check it out i don t mind it but would say that if it was much stiffer it might be a problem how about the r rx for suspension well i wouldn t encourage passenger carrying in the probe unless the person in the front seat likes to sit with his knees to the dash as mentioned in the consumer reports write ups consider the back seat as a parcel shelf no biggie to me though if it had been i d not have bought the car but it s definitely not a family car true i ve heard that the exhaust system has trouble but mine works fine i haven t heard about this one i know that some of the very early probes and maybe had problems with prematurely rusting mufflers which i ve had this problem and read about it or at least i assume the one i had was the one i read about in any case what happened was the weld between the muffler and the pipe feeding it ok so i m not a mechanic broke in my case the dealer welded it ordered replacement parts and put them on when they got them i suspect this is some sort of design flaw or production flaw in any case i have an earlier model and would expect it to be worked out on newer ones in any case it is a warrantee repair or they get the keys back from what i ve heard it sounds like ford mazda had some qc problems with the probe and probably mx when they first went into production but i think these problems have mostly been corrected at this point that s almost always to be expected with a completely new car like this though i have to agree that they seem to have some qc problesm but i seriously feel the car design is sound and expect it to do very well i second this there seems to be some things that slipped through but the car seems very sound while not perfection what is you get an awful lot for your money bill heiser heiser acs bu edu heiser world std com boston university boston ma btw bill has a probe mailing list you might want to subscribe to it if you are interested in more detail try request ford probe world std com did i get that right never can remember if the request goes on the front or the back john navitsky johnn eskimo com exercise a right today
rec.autos	re review ford taurus sho excerpts from rec autos apr re review ford tauru by mark w rice mozart colu in article uupcb cutting hou tx us david bonds cutting hou tx us dav id bonds writes gk occasionally i have trouble shifting into reverse the shifter gk refuses to enter the gate and i often grind the synchros trying to gk get it into gear i ll be watching this carefully in the next couple gk of months enter st wait seconds and then go into reverse they use the same synchros and you ll never at least i haven t ground em to fit when using this technique or do like the manual says and put it in rd first then you can quickly go into reverse no waiting one more way which works in manual trans cars i ve driven and it is my personal favorite the other suggestions above are great but try this one too while pushing the shifter gently towards reverse let the clutch out slowly right to the friction point and the shifter will be pulled into position if you do it right the car won t jump backward nor will the gears grind you will just glide back sam
rec.autos	re viper car alarms mcrosbie batman bmd trw com writes in article c fr cdo cs uiuc edu u cs uiuc edu ronald e garnett writes hello auto enthusiasts stuff deleted viper also sells some fancy field disturbance sensor that supposedly detects people approcahing the car this is primarily for convertibles i have a convertible and have looked at this feature in detail alpine actually makes a better radar unit if you want to get one of these it has zones in it that can be shut down independently so that if one side of your car has pedestrian traffic or something else that would trigger an alarm it shuts down the zone or rather pulls it in tighter i don t see the real benefit to these unless you have a convertible that you leave the top down on avoid the voice alarm that can be added to the radar package it talks to people as they walk by i saw one installed on a lotus esprit the kids would taunt it seeing how close they could get before it warned them to get back the owner finally disabled it which defeats the purpose in my mind stuff deleted ron garnett more stuff deleted merrill my neighbor runs a viper r distributorship and installs them on all saturns sold in my area anne arundel county md he has an sc with the viper voice alarm installed the alarm does everything turn on the car the radio the heater roll down windows unlock the doors the alarm goes off more frequently on hot days when a person walks by it gets sensitive up to about feet in degree heat it isn t as bad as convetional siren alarms because it doesn t continue to wail it just says protected by viper please stand back and shuts up mainly because the person walks away befuddled chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	re best radar detector valentine in article apr sequent com troy sequent com troy wecker writes let me explain why i feel the bogey counter feature is a gimmick radar waves bounce off objects especially metal that is how radar speed measurement works a high frequency microwave x band approx ghz and k is approx ghz is sent out and reflected back to the antenna off of an automobile or other objects if an object is moving a doppler shift about hz per mph on x band occurs is measured and converted to miles per hour these waves bounce all over the place and they can reflect many times and go in many directions from what i understand the valentine can only tell if these microwaves are coming from the front rear or both there are only two antennas if they are coming from both this in interpreted as a side bogey bogey counts are determined as sources by their relative strength to one another even if they are reflections of the same source i m certainly no engineer and really have no scientific basis on which to make this argument but don t you answer your own question is the reflected signal shifted at all from the act of being reflected if so wouldn t it then be easy for the detector to discriminate between reflections and direct sources here is the problem since the microwaves reflect how does the unit tell if it is a source or a reflection take a valentine and drive to the local grocery store that uses an x band radar door opener you can tell by the small black box above the door pointed down at about a degree angle and your detector going off when it gets near the valentine will count or bogeys from all directions front rear and sides it doesn t say which side the count changes as cars drive by and reflections change is there or sources not at the store i go to as i drive around with a standard detector i can only find one source and that is the door opener for the front door troy wecker troy sequent com sequent computer systems beaverton or david w hwang m d david ganglion ann arbor mi us
rec.autos	re best radar detector valentine in article apr convex com tobias convex com allen tobias writes in article apr sequent com troy sequent com troy wecker writes each valentine is hand tuned to maximum performance is all the radar bands of coverage this of course adds to the labor cost and in turn the cost of the unit i live in the backyard of the folks who make the stalker radar system the valentine has saved me many many many times from the stealth revenue enhancement traps of the local area i have had all the major brand detectors and imho nothing else even comes close to the v i don t work for valentine i am just a satisfied user of their unit if you really want the nitty gritty details on all this call the nice folks at valentine research they will be more than happy to explain their perspective on radar detection and analysis methods the calls free at it seems that there are more and more bands available for police radar each month i have recently purchased within the last months the bel stw while it is not a perfect detector by any means it does do the job fairly well now however i pick up a car magazine at the airport and read about this super ka wideband which is a superset of the ka wideband that this latest generation of detectors was touted as covering so now bel has a new series of detectors out that cover all the usual bands x k ka photo ka wideband as well as the new super ka wideband just as there comes a point of diminishing returns when chasing increased pc computing power with faster and faster cpus for the average home consumer at least it seems that there is now the same concern with radar detectors does it make sense to upgrade just months after purchasing my new detector is valentine upgrading their equipment if so it might be worth it for me to upgrade to the valentine i was in the market for a valentine when i purchased the bel but the month waiting time was just too much for me since i had inadequate protection with my passport life was much simpler when there was just x and k band and escort has the best equipment on the market and there was no need to continuously shop for a new detector i hope that the flood of new radar bands ceases with this new super wideband business allen tobias technical email convex computer corp marketing tobias convex com waterview parkway richardson tx no one cares how much you know until they know how much you care david w hwang m d david ganglion ann arbor mi us
rec.autos	car tinting s hello again anyone here done any tinting work what are the best brands out there how about applications i heard there was a water based brand that s you can move around till it s just right and you then let it dry like that also i would consider having it professionally done how much around wisconsin or chcago area that does a decent job fairly cheap college kid thanks for all the info ps what is the maximum legal tint limit homi csd csd uwm edu
rec.autos	re choice of gauges in article c ybo e i vcd hp com dmunroe vcd hp com dave gauge writes if you had free reign to design your own instrument cluster which gauges would you choose to have beyond the basic set oil pressure oil temperature coolant temperature manifold vacuum ammeter voltmeter fuel pressure maybe problematic since you either need an electronic sensor gauge pair or you have to mount the damn thing outside the car in addition it d be nice to have a big red idiot light check guages connected to oil pressure oil temp coolant temp ammeter voltmeter with heaps of guages it s hard to look at them all all the time in the case of oil pressure for example you want to know right away if your oil pump goes bad unlike coolant temperature a minute or two of oil pressure would be a very bad thing tm adam adam g adamg microware com or uunet mcrware adamg the above is not to be construed in any way as the official or unofficial statements of microware or any microware employees
rec.autos	re super mega automobile sighting s exotics together in article c xp kjb constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes in article r f qinnk phantom gatech edu grahamt phantom gatech edu graham e thomas writes jmm h virginia edu the blade runner writes sighting of such a fine beast but remember the mustang will forever be the true king of the road especially the shelby american gt kr king of the road so named to steal gm s planned camaro king of the road s thunder and maybe the mustang will be forever king of the road the gt isn t road legal i think the gt actually is street legal although that particular question is moot see the price figures below some gt s are street legal some aren t this car was right hand drive weren t they all like that how much does a gt go for how many were made i found my shelby american guide there were a grand total gt s built gt coupes gt road cars gt mk ii gt mk iiis gt roadsters mirages gt mk ivs total additional uncompleted mk iiis twelve of these cars were prototypes racing coupes road coupes eight mk ii coupes lhd mk iiis and rhd mk iiis the other breakdowns follow the above list eg were mk ivs the lhd rhd breakdown is only given on the mk iiis the prices for those which can be bought are around the million mark last i heard with a projection of some million or thereabouts in it was second only to some penny ante ferarri shelby won the fia world manufacturer s cup with his cobras in that was also the year that he retired them from the shelby american racing team in favor of the ford gt program the next year that victory broke a year ferarri winning streak well there s lotsa info i could spout but i ll refrain much of this information comes from hot rod magazine s shelby american cobra mustang guide which has more info on the shelby american fords than you could ever want to know james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re new integra for in article c ypt d tsegw tse com pbhandar tsegw tse com parminder bhandari writes i ve heard unconfirmed rumours that there is a new integra being released for well you can just about set your watch by honda releasing new models every years and an upgrade half way through the cars life the local acura dealership tells me that the new integra will be out very soon i e may june its hard to find specific details as the integra has been deleted from most of the rest of the world i have seen them in canada and australia as well as the u s but it was discontinued after the first generation in europe normally you can see new japanese models appear in europe or japan first and extrapolate from there c d reported that the engine would be a carryover i think craig does anybody have any info on this the local sales people know as much as i can throw them parms still no sig
rec.autos	re the mustang in article c zzd kt mentor cc purdue edu marshatt feserve cc purdue edu zauberer writes disclamer this is not a flame if you anger easily please go on petebre elof iit edu brenta peterson writes the next mustang will be ford s highest profile car it attracts way more attention than the camaro firebird because it s heritage is more embedded in the general public don t lie to yourself and believe ford will forfeit that fyi they already did oh really when too bad that the current mustang can t even compete with the new camaro without using an active imagination the mustang cobra can check it out right now few cars can compare with the camaro think about it for a car that will out perform all but a few exotics if you are now swearing at me look at the stats they don t lie there are no comparable cars in it s class certinaly not for its price ehhhh maybe the mustang cobra does a good job for a lower price and it s just a taste of what s ahead in the th anniversary of the original pony car unless the ford gets the v hp romeo you don t seriously believe that it was designed for the mark viii only do you hey can you imagine the potential of a modified lt folks in a few years we will surpass the levels of performance achieved in the late s thats scary just think corvettes are almost up to the performance levels of a cobra wow in a few years they might be up to the performance levels of a ford gt wow man just think about it james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re bmw i in article apr ultb isc rit edu adn ritvax isc rit edu writes i looked at that bimmer yesterday it s an has about kmi according to owner odometer stopped working at kmi drivess well sounds good body is ok he wants i liked the car despite it s auto tranny but my wife will be a primary driver on this one and she wants auto the radio does not work untill the car warms up and you honk the horn the a c seems to have a leak the sunroof is sticky but operational odometer does not work as mentioned before idle is a bit bouncy going from rpm to rpm wipers are slow that s teh gripes the owner says that he changed radiator alternator rotors and calipers exhaust the biggest problem is that the owner is a shifty sob telling strange stories i hate that i would never buy from a persom like that except how often you see a descent i for that amount of money he also said that although i could bring a mechanicin he wouldn t let me check the car by taking it to a garage suspicious and who knows what milage is on it so let me know what to check for given there s practically no rust i know there was an article on i in r d a few years back anybody remembers what issue mike s don t buy it all of the things you mentioned will just give you headaches later on also it sounds like the car needs a lot of work and as you probably know bmw s are not cheap to fix either the owner sounds like a shady character just trying to take advantage of someone sure sounds good but you should calculate how much the repairs will be it sounds like you would have to sink in at least to get everything fixed if not more also never trust anyone as far as mileage is concerned who knows how many miles are on it and how it was driven sure people tell you bmw s hold up but you have to consider any car is subject to wear and tear for all you know it could have miles on it the thing you have to remember is that this isn t the last i around either just wait and keep shopping for around you can probably find one that is better needs less repair and has legitimate mileage unlike the one you are considering take it from a guy who has been taken a couple of times good luck al himsl
rec.autos	re the mustang in article otnm b w w cybernet cse fau edu vlasis cybernet cse fau edu vlasis theodore writes i can put a valve v with twin garret s on yugo and get sec qm thats useless its still a yugo that will loose any race on a track or on the street a yugo that will go mi in seconds will not lose on the street that s just too damn quick it might be wrapped around a telephone pole at the end of that quarter mile but it will be there alone have you detroit beings compared the ultra long throw stick shifts of the with the mr turbo or rx i ll buy it in mos or you could replace the stock shifter with a hurst short throw shifter available from ford motorsport or any number of other after market products to boost the performance of a mustang or camaro can you do that with a rx or verily with any mr with the detroit aftermarket you can build a mustang or camaro which is superior to either car you mention for less than the sticker price of either or the torsen differential of the rx compared to the differential of the that sounds in every hairpin turn well gee it works and it doesn t break it transmits power to the drive wheels and it s essentially zero maintenance and there s an aftermarket in parts for ford and chevy rear ends too and bythe way and camaro both have drums on the rear breaks hello this is the s well the mustang cobra which from all reports uses the same running gear as mustang has wheel disks i can t speak for the new camaro but i think it does too also stop and think about the markets here the mustang is and always has been a mass market sporty car that s where the pony car class came from with a performance model that s why it has the econo box running gear that was also factored into the design of the mustang from the day lee iacocca conceived his baby it was designed as a wide market car sporty yet accessible with room for performance tweaking the cars you listed are designed for a specific market niche and they both fit those niches very well the mustang at least does well in multiple markets i can t speak for the camaro james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re last of the v interceptors mad max tony i believe first of all that max s car is an austrailian built car i don t think its a chopped up u s unit it may be called a kangaroo or roo or something similar not sure but i do recall reading that austrailian cars used ford v engines the ford v interceptor is i think a c i cop car motor whatever the case that small car with a screaming big block ford would probably smoke the tires for miles kilometers i hope someone out there can elaborate on the subject smoke em hard smoke em fast later david hertrich lincoln continental c i
rec.autos	re what car is this deloreans never had a factory v they were considering production with a turbo or twin turbo i forget version of the standard v as to who produced it you got me jonathan jdrout scott skidmore edu
rec.autos	re the mustang in article c mux bpr constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes in article c zzd kt mentor cc purdue edu marshatt feserve cc purdue edu zauberer writes disclamer this is not a flame if you anger easily please go on petebre elof iit edu brenta peterson writes the next mustang will be ford s highest profile car it attracts way more attention than the camaro firebird because it s heritage is more embedded in the general public don t lie to yourself and believe ford will forfeit that fyi they already did oh really when too bad that the current mustang can t even compete with the new camaro without using an active imagination the mustang cobra can check it out so you think a mustang cobra can match the performance of a new z interesting belief craig who neither owns nor wants to own any gm or ford product craig
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian j queiser writes cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes aas po cwru edu andrew a spencer writes i think that it is technicaly known as a degree vee configuration could be wrong this is how i ve seen them referred to then what is a flat engine flat deg v horizonatlly opposed usually it also equals boxer however i think the term is traditionally reserved for s and s and firing order matters this was talked about here in r a many months back i can t remember the consensus examples ferrari s tr is a flat boxer porsche s is a flat subaru s impreza is a flat regards not to inject a non automotive note to this thread but the bmw opposed twin used in motorcycles for a long time is and always has been known as a boxer ken franklin they say there s a heaven for people who wait ama and some say it s better but i say it ain t gwrra i d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints dod the sinners are lots more fun y know only the good die young
rec.autos	re last of the v interceptors mad max asdch acad alaska edu writes tony i believe first of all that max s car is an austrailian built car i don t think its a chopped up u s unit the last v in mad max is based on a holden australia holden is linked with gm vauxhall gb and so they re quite unlikely to use ford parts chris crh regent e technik tu muenchen de
rec.autos	re v v v v vx in article apr engr washington edu eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian j queiser writes examples ferrari s tr is a flat boxer porsche s is a flat subaru s impreza is a flat i think you got it the other way round the ferrari flat is a degree v and not a true boxer while the subaru and porsche are true boxers don t know about the vw bug though but i suspect that it is also a true boxer eliot are you serious the auto that had a lot to do with bringing the term boxer to the popular forefront was the ferrari berlinetta boxer or the bb had a liter opposed cylinder engine ken franklin they say there s a heaven for people who wait ama and some say it s better but i say it ain t gwrra i d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints dod the sinners are lots more fun y know only the good die young
rec.autos	re nissan nomenclature was re manual shift bigots wanted the european version is called sx and have a liter engine with turbo and have more power than the us version hp it goes from to km h in sec and have a top speed of km h miles h i just purchased one new and i am looking for a repair book i could not find one in france and germany does anybody knows where to find one is there one in the uk probabaly no use to look in the us as the sx have here a different motor i am very pleased with the car and have no problem with it but like to have good technical documentation about the car i own regards
rec.autos	re v v v v vx ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes i am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have v engines v i don t know of any v legend mr mr v don t know of any v jaguar xjs please add to the list thanks s ssave ole cdac com is this a joke geof evans domain rxkgre minyos xx rmit oz au if they really wanna know tell em that god was drunk
rec.autos	does a car wash hurt the cars finish can taking the car to a car wash hurt the car s finish and if so is it better to hand wash it about once a month or just take it to the car wash anyway are detailing places worth the money if i do a good careful job on washing and waxing is a detail place going to be worth it reply to my email address pfk crux cit cornell edu pk my views reflect cornell s sue them dry
rec.autos	tires comparison eve i am looking to buy new p r tires r or hr i don t have much to spend but i would like a tire that will last does anyone have any experience with the following brands riken falken bfg general there are others but these i can find here for under like i said i am mostly interested in threadwear then speed since i hardly get to drive them over or mph also is it true that noone will give you warranty on such tires according to a tire dealer finally do hr tires last longer than r tires threadwear again or is that strictly a speed factor thanks for any replies whatever doesn t kill me makes me stronger internet vpopesc calstatela edu bitnet vpopesc csla bitnet
rec.autos	re lexus and infiniti in article issa cwis issa cwis unomaha edu issa el hazin writes don t the numbers in the car names above refair to the engine size in liters i e ls litre engine sc liter sport coupe and q liter similar kinda to bmw and mb nameing deal issa funny i thought the numbering scheme for both lexus and infiniti was related to sticker price more than anything else i e infiniti g around k q around k lexus es rip around k lexus es around k etc is there a conspiracy theory there spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c st kocrsv delcoelect com software technology delco electronics gm hughes electronics kokomo in i post therefore i armm
rec.autos	re v engines in article apr kronos arc nasa gov chucko freud arc nasa gov chuck fry writes in article apr ll mit edu singer ll mit edu matthew r singer writes didn t the saab sonnett have a v i recall someone telling that it was something like of a ford not only the sonett correct spelling but the wagon and sedan used a cc or cc v from ford of germany this particular motor had a degree vee angle a balance shaft and siamesed exhaust ports this motor was later stretched into the v commonly seen in the capri i think it was the reverse the v being of the v the v could make pretty reasonable power for its size but in the saab it made too much torque for the transmission which had been designed for a cylinder stroke it was also the worst engine that ford europe have ever made bloody awful reputation it s most successful application being the transit van saab gave up with this motor and then made the triumph half a stag v under license i believe but with litre capacity and perhaps a different arrangement for the cylinder head studs before developing their own straight four from the triumph kevinh hasler ascom ch
rec.autos	re impala ss going into i still can t understand all the hype about the impalla ss it still has the ugly caprice body orca on wheels the caprice was the worst new body style to come out of detroit ever now just because the lt engine and a few suspension tweeks are being added its still ugly its still a barge gm s answer to everything is throw in a v and someone will buy it or add some plastic ground affects and a few stickers and call it a gt gtz or ss and someone will buy it imho gm needs to scrap the caprice body completely and start over with a blank sheet of paper no minor modification wheel well treatments tail amp modification or nose re design or even the lt engine will help the existing caprice jeff
rec.autos	re best radar detector valentine re extended ka bands i recently bought a band detector you guys must all think i m nuts right well i did a little research into ka usage in this area and found out that ka is not currently being used in this state as well as surrounding states here s how i found out a cop friend who did spend time nailing speeders doesn t even know what ka is he s heard of k which is what they use here and i explained that ka is used for photo radar etc he then said yeah ka stands for k automatic duuhh he then went on to say that plans were being made for getting laser guns as far as going high tech were concerned but he didn t know too much my year old band whistler was consistently going off at speed traps even the real sneaky ones when i called the escort shop they confirmed that ka is not used here or in surrounding states they did claim that laser was being used a lot here which i was quite skeptical of so in the end instead of spending a lot of money and or waiting months for a state of the art detector i got a low priced high performance band escort incidentally its performance is equal to their top of the line model in x and k band detection i know that escort has been surpassed by other brands lately but i ve never fully relied on a detector and i was convinced that the escorts would be at least quite good which was good enough for me and my wallet eliot
rec.autos	re car buying story was christ another dealer service scam in article apr slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes in article apr newsgate sps mot com rapw email sps mot com writes before you go in find out the invoice prices of the car add a reasonable profit for the dealer offer them that price and stick to it whoa watch your terminology dealer invoice is not dealer cost that s probably true but it s the closest to it that you re going to get the actual dealer cost depends on a lot of things and even the dealer probably doesn t know exactly what it will be until all the factory kick backs incentives etc are paid and that often depends on his volume at the end of the month quarter whatever it might be a funny munber but it s all you have to start with except the sticker and anyone who pays sticker price is really being ripped off mark
rec.autos	re v v v v vx we have seen lots of discussion on automobile engine configuration let me ask a similar question from the aviation field you must have seen images of prop planes with all cylinders exposed i have seen up to cylinders positioned radially in a circular fashion with the prop at the center of the circle this arrangement always brings up a geometric dilemma how can one crankshaft throw accomodate rods or are the pistons displaced but not visible from the outside bijan
rec.autos	re review ford taurus sho in article kfr ewc wa q wtt andrew cmu edu sam swett ssbc andrew cmu edu writes one more way which works in manual trans cars i ve driven and it is my personal favorite the other suggestions above are great but try this one too while pushing the shifter gently towards reverse let the clutch out slowly right to the friction point and the shifter will be pulled into position if you do it right the car won t jump backward nor will the gears grind you will just glide back sam i can vouch for this method in my sho this is the only sure way of putting in the reverse without any problem every time vikas sontakke digital equipment corporation maynard ma internet sontakke helix enet dec com uucp decvax ucbvax allegra decwrl helix enet sontakke sontakke helix enet decwrl dec com
rec.autos	re license plates in article anl ollie solbourne com guerra solbourne com edi guerra writes i would like to know if anyone still has a copy of the list of license plates that were posted some time ago regarding special names and sayings thxs edig me too markus
rec.autos	bmw parts greetings automobile enthusiasts can anyone tell me if there is a mail order company that sells bmw parts discounted cheaper than the dealerships sorry if it s a faq email replies very much appreciated thanks jeff strait strait uicsl csl uiuc edu university of illinois phone if you ladies leave this island if you survive basic recruit training you will be a weapon a minister of death praying for war
rec.autos	re honda clutch chatter i also experience this kinda problem in my bmw during cold start ups the clutch seems to be sticky and everytime i drive out for about km the clutch seems to stick onto somewhere that if i depress the clutch the whole chassis moves along but after preheating it becomes smooth again i think that your suggestion of being some humudity is right but there should be some remedy i also found out that my clutch is already thin but still alright for a couple grand more
rec.autos	those nasty insurance people hello everyone i have an insurance question allstate insurance situation person wrecks car car is drivable to dealer person reports accident no other cars involved driver estimates damage cost exceedes cost of car insurance people claim car is totalled because of exceeding repair costs person says wwhhhaatttt but i drove the car here and takes it to another place other place estimates in damage less than the dealer one more hitch the car is registered in florida but the accident occurred in pennsyvania question should the insurance recognize and pay for the damages of this now fixable car even though they prematurly declared totalled please respond via e mail if you think you know anything about this sort of thing chris camp wpic pitt edu thanks
rec.autos	re ford probe import car of the year in ri rv jfl msuinfo cl msu edu newman cps msu edu timothy s newman writes okay okay i know the ford probe is made in the us in fact it s made in michigan at a mazda plant my question are most of the parts from american or japanese sources i have been told that most of the us assembly plants for japanese automakers import almost all of the parts used in the vehicles any information anyone has on this will be appreciated ford aimed for us content when they designed the new probe in actual practice it came out to us content if my is any example the that is imported may be the engine and brakes at least the had missybitchy brakes tim newman newman cps msu edu bob
rec.autos	re saturn extended warranty in article c rrw g w austin ibm com login austin ibm com writes i ve owned a saturn for and year and a half and didn t have the extended warranty but just traded it in for a for reasons that i won t mention unless someone wants to know i opted for the year mile extended with deductible it s sorta like buying health insurance you could say that you re not sick now and haven t been sick for a while but you can t guarantee that you won t be sick tomorrow a little money invested today is better than being sick tomorrow and now being able to pay for it or having to pay a lot more tomorrow than you can today justify all you want extended warranties are a ripoff high profit item for the dealer and you didn t buy yr k you get yr k free so what you bought is yr k and you still have to pay every time you use this great warranty better to put your money in the bank and use it for repairs if when you need it considering that your last car was only years old are you sure you will even keep this new one past it s free warranty period btw typical profit on extended warranties is around that s right only of the money needs to go into the collective pot to pay for any future repairs that the group of extended warranty people collect
rec.autos	re the mustang and bythe way and camaro both have drums on the rear breaks hello this is the s vlasis theodore good point you would think by now that most car companies would just make wheel disc standard and be done with it can it really cost that much more for disc especially when you think of the economies of scale they would gain by just making them all wheel disc no seperate parts numbers and orders etc btw the z and trans am and formula have wheel disc but the bottom line models have the rear drums
rec.autos	re is car saftey important safety is an important criterium for me when buying a car i won t buy a small car like a civic or whatever great safety handling speed for me evengreater safety handling speed for the rich ie merc sel
rec.autos	re changing oil by yourself idiots in article apr cs tulane edu mark luke cray com mark dean says quit whining on the net about changing your oil yourselves if you can t handle such a simple procedure as changing your oil then get somebody else to do it and get the hell off the network md cool off these people have as much right to be here as you do btw is this the kind of friendly helpful service we should expect from cray
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article bense oasys dt navy mil bense oasys dt navy mil ron bense writes in article apr ns cc lehigh edu amh ns cc lehigh edu alois m himsl writes in article apr jpl devvax jpl nasa gov nancy hayduke nancy feagans writes ashtrays and cigarette lighters these should be an option you forget that the cigarette lighter plug is essential for plugging in radar detectors and lights the ashtrays are also essential because they are great places to keep change and tokens wouldn t you rather have some type of standard electrical plug instead of that fire hazard waiting to happen adaptor i know i would and i would also prefer to have sensibly placed cup holders instead of an ashtray my car came with coin holders already built in ron exactly you took the words right out of my mouth ron nancy j feagans jet propulsion lab nancy jpl devvax jpl nasa gov not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious
rec.autos	corolla spd hi there maybe you can help me i have an corolla with a speed as the subject line says the gearbox seems excessivly clunky i used to have an corolla and it was also somewhat clunky but it had more miles on it and it wasn t nearly as bad as this car is there fluid in the speed case if there is could it just be low or in need of a change as i recall only the autos have fluid or am i just mistaken please no flames for owning an import i also have an old dodge but it s not in very good shape these days thanks derek
rec.autos	datsun nissan z cars well the opel deal fell through now i m looking at a datsun z for sale in our local buy sell any previous owners have any experience with these cars besides looking for rust good compression low miles and all the other usual car things one looks for is there anything special about these cars that i should watch out for how about things like handling performance mileage etc these cars look hot to my eyes at least and bear more than a passing resemblance to the aston martin db zagato sp which has to be one of the most beatiful cars ever made what is the difference between z z z the zx is rather unappealing imho but the other cars are decent thanks again darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca
rec.autos	re waxes polishes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bbarnard magnus acs ohio state edu bret d barnard writes with spring upon us it s time to start waxing again i was wondering if anyone had any suggestions about waxes and polishes i know carnuba wax is often recommended on the net but i was wondering about the colored waxes to cover up some minor scratches do the colored waxes give on overall good quality shine are they good for the paint or clear coat what about liquid glass is it a clear polish which dries clear thus filling scratches is it good for the paint clear coat please post with both good and bad experiences and hey let s name names brands here all gimmicks stick with plain ol carnauba wax that s non abrasive eagle meguiars turtle wax and a few others are good examples the colored waxes just color in the scratches so they re not so apparent the better approach is to buff minor scratches completely off with a cleaner mild abrasive never tried liquid glass although i still have this sample they sent me a few years back aaron
rec.motorcycles	re your opinion and what it means to me some real stupid remarks you and the beav should lighten up esp the beav i agree that lots of serious dribble for no real reason hey i don t really care but when someone sends me email telling me to fuck off i get rather pissed if he posted to the net i could really care less but sending mail is just childish mr infant e is just that an infant give him a few more years to grow up and maybe he ll learn some network etiquette if you can t stand the flames and you don t have the brains stay out of the newsgroup kind of catchy n est pas the beav mike beavington dod v sabre mbeaving bnr ca my employer has no idea what i m talking about
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article wrs wslack uucp wrs wslack uucp bill slack wrote uh folks the shaft doesn t have diddleysquatpoop to do with it i can get the front wheel off the ground on my ferchrissake the statement above is true to the spirit of the list because it is a false statement misinformation that s the spirit bill my will do wheelies because it s a chain drive model john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion one point not yet mentioned hands on the driver s shoulders are a definite no no it feels good for the passenger to stretch her arms and a shoulder massage feels good too but the shoulders are connected to the arms and the arms to the handlebars should you hit the brakes the pressure on the shoulders can make steering interesting bundle her up if it s cold make sure she has good gear say it again an pat her thigh to let her know all is great good luck mike
rec.motorcycles	re mail order response time in article oasys dt navy mil sturges oasys dt navy mil richard sturges writes i have ordered many times from competition accesories and ussually get day delivery once they had to backorder something but they sent me a card to say it would be two weeks came in days or so ordered fork seals and guide bushings from ca for my fzr two weeks later get fork seals and guide bushing call ca and ask for remaining guide bushing and order slide bushings explain on the phone which bushings are which the guy seemed to understand two weeks later get guide bushings sigh how much you wanna bet that once i get all the parts and take the fork apart that some parts won t fit axel
rec.motorcycles	exhaust coating since at least one other person was interested in this my fzr s black exhaust pipes are rusty and i researched getting them repaired yesterday i bought a can of vht degree black header paint and spent an hour sanding two of the header pipes by hand sprayed on paint thought about how clean i was able to get the metal with sanding and determined that i wouldn t be at all suprised if the paint wore chipped off in a month soooo call a couple of places up in minneapolis and discover that powder coating while extremely durable will not handle over degree temperatures the place i talked to said they were experimenting with some new powder that is supposed to handle degrees but that it wouldn t be available for months at least they directed me to another shop that specializes in header coating the other shop said they have coatings available one is aluminized that can do degrees and is comparable to powder coating for durability the other is silicon i think based and can do degrees but is thinner and not as durable both coatings have a textured finish not super smooth and should be cleaned with hot water and a brush price for foot header pipes and a foot collector was i m planning to take the parts up friday and get them back ups next week maybe wednesday sounds to me like this kind of coating stuff should be way better than paint considering how much abuse the pipes get from road crap rocks axel
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in article apr megatek com randy megatek com writes perhaps dwi in lousiana is confined to liquor everything in louisiana is related to liquor eating sleeping walking talking church state life death and everything in between plus the food is good too ray shea they wound like a very effective method unisql inc leah unisql ray cs utexas edu some days i miss d boon real bad dod team twinkie hawk gt
rec.motorcycles	re question in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes in article r ldinn rp frigate cis ohio state edu fields cis ohio state edu jonathan david fields writes this is probably a stupid question but as i am new to the motorcycle scene i don t really know anything about it what is dod this has to be a setup lookit same site as arnie skurow probably just want to see how many faq s they ll get oh well here goes
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering sans hands in article gbnvgw quantum qnx com dagibbs quantum qnx com david gibbs writes yes even when steering no hands you do something quite similar to countersteering basically to turn left you to a quick wiggle of the bike to the right first causing a counteracting lean to occur to the left this sounds suspiciously like black magic to me if by quick wiggle to the right you mean that the handlebars turn toward the right before turning to the left what is the input to the steering mechanism that makes this happen in the absence of the old shove shove david karr karr cs cornell edu bmw r dod also bmwmoa nra aclu et al
rec.motorcycles	re battery charger in article netnews upenn edu sanjay kin lap upenn edu sanjay sinha writes i just noticed that my halogen table lamp runs off volts the big thinngy that plugs into the wall says volts dc ma the question is can i trickle charge the battery on my cb with it you could but it would be considerably cheaper to spend or so on a trickle charger from k mart venture or target then it would be to replace the halogen lamp power supply after you fuse it trying to pump current into the battery while charging the charger should be putting out around or volts as well jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf cl k gleep naperville il there s nothing quite like the pitter patter of little feet followed by the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	dual sport recomendations i am looking at buying a dual sport type motorcycle this is my first cycle as well i am interested in any experiences people have with the following motorcycles good or bad honda xr l suzuki dr s suzuki dr es yamaha xt most xxx vs yyy articles i have seen in magazines pit the honda xr l against another cycle and the always comes out shining is it safe to assume that the would be of equal quality thanks joe
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other in article apr rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes in article mavenry altcit eskimo com maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes waving at other bikers makes more sense than just hey how s it going nice to meet you on the road have a good ride it keeps you in the habit of watching really carefully for bikes when you re in a cage this is a good thing has anyone while driving a cage ever waved at bikers i get the urge but i ve never actually done it i ve had people in cages wave at me or give me the thumbs up on occassion i always return the wave or thumbs up that never happened to me until i started riding harleys so that may have something to do with it why not try waving what bad could happen russian roulette is fun times out of paul blumstein paulb harley tti com dod abate ama hog doh kd laa marc arrl platypus qrp arpci naswa lwca rcma cala transaction technology inc santa monica ca
rec.motorcycles	re type spesifications cb vfr gt etc in article r v k lnr agate berkeley edu robinson cogsci berkeley edu michael robinson writes in article apr adobe com cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes in article c sk d c p srgenprp sr hp com frankb sad hp com frank ball writes honda a v designates a v engine street bike vf for v vt for v twin so how about my honda hawk nt it s a twin but not called a vt new technology yeah and what about my honda cx also a v twin but in the other direction cycle experimental got this from a mechanic at al lamb s honda at cbr f allen tobias technical email convex computer corp marketing tobias convex com waterview parkway richardson tx this bike is awesome and i m fearless let s go jay gleason
rec.motorcycles	re krypto cables was re cobra locks in article csundh ursa csundh ursa calvin edu charles sundheim writes to follow up i had a bad experience w a krypto lock too last year i bought a krypto cable ii x long something like that that by all standards seemed like a decent piece until i used it anyway so in short the cables seems to be pretty useless i would guess the larger cable seems to be a much better unit i ve got the larger cable about inch in diameter actually i think its larger about feet long which coils into a or inch coil with the tubular key lock like the u locks it has worked fine for me for two years now and seems to me anyway that it is very secure it doesn t have the weaknesses that the u locks have other than the liquid nitrogen trick supposedly is much easier to store in my tankbag than a u lock and more versatile i got mine from one of the mail order houses motorcycle accessory warehouse i beleive for in combination with an ignition disable and a couple of other deterrents all i usually worry about is vandalism randy davis email randy megatek com zx pilot uunet ucsd megatek randy dod but this one goes to eleven nigel tufnel spinal tap
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article stafford stafford winona msus edu stafford vax winona msus edu john stafford writes in article wrs wslack uucp wrs wslack uucp bill slack wrote uh folks the shaft doesn t have diddleysquatpoop to do with it i can get the front wheel off the ground on my ferchrissake the statement above is true to the spirit of the list because it is a false statement misinformation that s the spirit bill my will do wheelies because it s a chain drive model john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply i knew when i posted that i was going to get into trouble now i suppose i have to give wheelie demos at the spring fling or something but you re right john it is a chain drive model i think it goes around the camshaft and up over the rocker arms or something stolen from an early spagthorpe design according to urban legend bill wrs gozer mv com bill slack dod but her tears were shed in vain and her every word was lost in the rumble of his engine and the smoke from his exhaust oo o o
rec.motorcycles	wanted uk bmw insu tips hi i m now in the market for buying a bmw the ideal would be an r rs but i d be interested to here of any r for sale age is not a problem i m more interested in a good example without a massive amount of miles and one which has been well maintained as i intend to keep it well and for some time i would also like to know if anyone has any sound advice as regards to insurance yr old licence for years no accidents claims convictions am i old enough to get bmw owners club insurance yet or will i have to wait until next year ian future beemer owner
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion in article c t dsc well sf ca us rwert well sf ca us bob wert writes i need some advice on having someone ride pillion with me on my ninja this will be the the first time i ve taken anyone for an extended ride read farther than around the block we ll be riding some twisty fairly bumpy roads the mines road mt hamilton loop for you sf bay areans an extended ride as a passenger on a ninja owww well i hate to be a wet sock but well i was a passenger on many bikes for the longest time before i started riding myelf and i grew to hate long rides on sport bikes the passenger seats are not designed for long rides the passenger positions aren t even usually designed for short rides i ended up torturing my knees and my back by taking long rides as a passenger on sport bikes one of the reasons i originally liked my current guythingy so much was becase he had a bmw i d suggest a shorter extended ride at first a short turn in the mountains or some such then see how much pain she s in and proceed from there the best advice i d give a beginning passenger don t get on the bike until the rider says its ok and work out some sort signal for the rider to tell you when its ok to get off after i get on the bike i squeeze my riders hips to tell that i m ready and at the stop he nods his head to show its ok for me to get off keep your feet on the pegs at all times don t wiggle unless your rider asks you to the best passengers are those which are unobtrusive echo the movements and lean of your rider look over the shoulder thats most comfortable but during turns look over the shoulder on the inside of the turn get used to your rider s shifting style riders use a reasonably consistent shifting style avoid helmet bonk helmet bonk is when your rider revs the bike up and then shifts and the sudden change in foreward acceleration causes your helmet to bonk his hers it gets old real fast when pulling to a stop put a hand or both hands on the tank to keep your weight from pushing your rider up onto the tank putting your hands on the tank is also a good way to stretch your back if you re in pain but i m told it gets harder to steer in turns if you leave them there switch your hands to the guardrail to stretch your shoulders but be sure and squeeze your thighs while you re doing it so your rider knows you re still there the guard rail isn t as safe as holding onto your rider don t be afraid to ask for frequent stops if you re in pain or losing feeling in your feet passenger seats are not generally designed for comfort work out some sort of pull over signal beforehand laura lemay lemay netcom com writer of trifles in shadows and blood
rec.motorcycles	re new to motorcycles in article mdennie beryllium mdennie xerox com matt dennie writes in netnews upenn edu sanjay kin lap upenn edu sanjay sinha writes in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes curtis jackson pens msf course shyah the one here only costs izzat a deal or what they are free in philadelphia who pays for these cheapie msf deals are your states subsidizing them here they are for erc and for msf and no the state doesn t subsidize ours at all we do for every motorcycle endorsed license laz
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion in article zowie apr daedalus stanford edu zowie daedalus stanford edu craig powderkeg deforest writes turn dynamics sit so that you feel like you re sitting upright good advice please no sudden moves my ol lady taps me on the shoulder to let me know she is uncomfortable i in turn am prepared for her to move about on the back of the bike trust is essential we had bad crash nail in rear tire on left hand sweeper at crest of hill on pavement pea gravel road and her actions helped lessen the severity of it as we were crashing she stayed upright in the saddle with her feet on the pegs and her hands about my waist i was able to get the bike slowed down mph before we were high sided she got off with a fair case of road rash and i had to have the doc remove a lot of rocks from my knee had she panicked we would have probably crashed at greater speed causing greater injury btw as soon at the tire went flat we went into violent tank slappers this is what she rode out in a normal riding posture dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines god is real unless declared integer i came i saw i deleted all your files black holes are where god is dividing by zero the world will end in minutes please log out earth is full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other in article apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes i waved to a guy on a riding mower this morning does that count btw i live in the country everyone waves out here dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines god is real unless declared integer i came i saw i deleted all your files black holes are where god is dividing by zero the world will end in minutes please log out earth is full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in a previous article xlyx vax cit cornell edu says is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive absolutely early xs s were very good at this mike terry virago don t try it on your virago unless you already are purty good at it or like the smell of exploded clutch go fast take chances mike s
rec.motorcycles	re wanted advice for new cylist in article apr hsh com binger hsh com writes in article apr rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes so the question i have is how dangerous is riding i might only add two things stupid road design or poor at least and here in louisiana the state sign is caution sub standard roadway dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines god is real unless declared integer i came i saw i deleted all your files black holes are where god is dividing by zero the world will end in minutes please log out earth is full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	re what is a squid was re riceburner respect dana h myers on the tue apr gmt wibbled in article c qqxp ie cbmvax cbm commodore com hartzler cbmvax cbm commodore com jerry hartzler cats writes in article apr icomsim com mmanning icomsim com michael manning writes duck squids don t wave or return waves ever even to each excuse me for being an ignoramus but what are these squids are everybody but me and you chris behanna is especially a squid dana h myers i m a bmw squid two of my arms are longer too nick the bs biker dod concise oxford longer arms m lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated at bnr o o npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay maidenhead the united kingdom o pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re paint jobs in the uk lisa rowlands on the wed apr wibbled can anyone recommend a good place for reasonably priced bike paint jobs preferably but not essentially in the london area thanks lisa rowlands alex technologies ltd cp house uxbridge road tel ealing fax london email lisa alex com w lt lisa try pip on she does wonderful things with paint i ve seen her work and it s good best of luck nick the well connected biker dod concise oxford boring paint job m lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated at bnr o o npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay maidenhead the united kingdom o pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re happy easter dave edmondson on the wed apr gmt wibbled nick pettefar npet bnr ca wrote kevinh on the tue apr gmt wibbled jonathan quist bemoaned yes it s a minor blasphemy that u s companies would on the likes of a m jaguar or sob lotus it s outright sacrilege for rr to have non british ownership it s a fundamental thing lotus looks set for a management buyout gm weren t happy that the elan was late and too pricey if they can write off the elan development costs the may be able to sell them for a sensible price i think there is a legal clause in the rr name regardless of who owns it it must be a british company owner i e ba can sell the company but not the name kevinh hasler ascom ch i don t believe that ba have anything to do with rr it s a seperate company from the rr aero engine company it s vickers who own rolls royce cars and yes kevin it is posts morgan use a sliding pillar front suspension ob bike at long bleeding last when will that pettefar bloke get a mail address so we can bung him on the ogri list dave david edmondson davide dcs qmw ac uk queen mary westfield college dod guzzi le mans this means the end of the horse drawn zeppelin what you mean like the one in my bleedin signature hello nick the connected biker dod concise oxford mail address m lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated at bnr o o npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay maidenhead the united kingdom o pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re insurance discount in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu asphaug lpl arizona edu erik asphaug x writes by the way i m moving to the bay area so i ll be insuring the bikes there and registering them to ease me of the shock can somebody guesstimate the cost of insuring a zr and a r gs here in tucson they only cost me full and liability only for the two per annum my agent is daniel sui and he s done quite a good job for me you might check with him as he s located in san francisco and specializes in bike insurance daniel sui insurance balboa street san francisco ca michael michael nelson cbr rr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod
rec.motorcycles	re looking for movies w bikes in article apr i isc com jeq lachman com jonathan e quist writes freebie and the bean great chase scene on a trials bike dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines god is real unless declared integer i came i saw i deleted all your files black holes are where god is dividing by zero the world will end in minutes please log out earth is full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	re v max handling request in article tcora b gator pica army mil tcora pica army mil tom coradeschi writes jearls tekig pen tek com jeffrey david earls wrote ba ntuvax ntu ac sg writes hello there can anyone who has handson experience on riding the yamaha v max pls kindly comment on its handling some guy came to the omrra race school last weekend with number plates on his v max he didn t get more than practice laps in before he pushed the frame too hard and it drove him into the guard rail on the back straight btw the rider was conscious and semi coherent when the ambulance carted him off that s all i know i hate to pick on someone who may have been seriously injured let s hope not but semi coherent sounds like a good description of someone who shows up at the track w a vmax in the first place what does that make me for showing up with an old interceptor with worse brakes and handling due to bent frame than a vmax and i didn t even uh well i was more than semi coherent when the ambulance uh nevermind axel
rec.motorcycles	re need parts info for maicoletta scooter in article r uea m slack sim es com pashdown slack sim es com pete ashdown writes also looking for brakes or info on relining existing shoes vintage brakes bluefield ave newbury park ca they reline all types of obsolete motorcycle brake shoes with ferodo material also any other maicoletta owners anywhere to have contact with place to try deutsches motorrad register grover place shreveport la club for all types of two wheeled german equipment including scooters i periodically see ads for maico scooter stuff in their newsletter dave tharp dod you can t wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra an indian scout k s indian chief ahrma or its brother the chief r s tr b ama they re built like rocks r velorex nsu max to take the knocks bmw r compulsive it s the harleys that my employer has no idea joiner give you grief
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article apr vax cit cornell edu xlyx vax cit cornell edu writes is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive only on the front wheel use the lever on the right handlebar to accomplish this michael michael nelson cbr rr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod
rec.motorcycles	re need maintenance tips in article c riwa or world std com cgkarras world std com christopher g karras writes after reading the service manual for my bike suzuki gs e i have a couple of questions i hope you can answer when checking the oil level with the dip stick built into the oil fill cap does one check it with the cap screwed in or not most bikes i ve seen that use a dipstick rather than a sight glass are designed to check it without screwing it in in the manual for my cbr rr they specifically state it should be done this way michael michael nelson cbr rr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod
rec.motorcycles	re exhaust coating in article coburnn spot colorado edu coburnn spot colorado edu nicholas s coburn writes essbaum rchland vnet ibm com alexander essbaum writes my fzr s black exhaust pipes are rusty and i researched getting them repaired yesterday i bought a can of vht degree black header paint and spent an hour sanding two of the header pipes by hand sprayed on paint thought about how clean i was able to get the metal with sanding and determined that i wouldn t be at all suprised if the paint wore chipped off in a month parts deleted axel axel why not just purchase one of the fyex exhaust bras for about they look great and are cheaper than powder coating i had the same dilemma and opted for these i am quite pleased ok so what s an exhaust bra i m guessing it s not a fabric thing that straps to the pipes does it go over the chin fairing lowers in some way i usually don t ride with the lower plastic axel
rec.motorcycles	a kinder gentler bmw mailing list i know there s already a bmw mailing list but since it s an r bike only list and limited to the r r bikes as well i believe i ve decided to give this a go and see how much interest there is please read all of this post if you plan on subscribing to the list there is only one restriction for the discussion on this list that it be about bmw s i don t care which bmw any and all are welcome i will probably post articles that appear in the local bmw club newsletter and would incourage other club members to do the same especially tech articles to subscribe to the list send a message to the list address bmw rider cactus org with the word subscribe in caps in the subject of the message having the word subscribe in the subject is the only way to subscribe if you put the keyword in the message body your message will go out to everyone on the list and you will be ridiculed beyond belief your from line must have a valid return address the list sw will use the address in your from line if you would like to use a return address other than what is contained in your from line do not send mail to the list send a note directly to me joe rider cactus org and i ll take care of it manually the list sw will hack up the outgoing message from line so that your original full name in s is preserved but the return address is replaced with the mailing list address bmw rider cactus org this allows you to simply reply to a message to keep it on the list depending on your mail interface natch i use elm so that s what i wrote it for keep this in mind when you reply to a message and question the authors parentage to remove your name from the list send a message to the list address with the word unsubscribe in caps in the subject of the message having the word unsubscribe in the subject is the only way to remove your name from the list if you put the keyword in the message body your message will go out to everyone on the list and you will be ridiculed beyond belief the list is run from my home system a poor little box running a very old version of something that smells somewhat like unix the mta isn t the smartest around but i ve managed to hack it up enough to make a decent list mta additions and removals are handled automatically by scripts that intercept messages based on the subject see below and may occassionally goof the sw will send a response message back when you subscribe if you do not receive a response within a reasonable amount of time my link is via uucp and sometimes runs in spurts send me a message joe rider cactus org and i ll look into it if the list turns out to be too popular and the mta groks over the number of addresses i ll have to freeze the list recipients until i can come up with a better mta good luck joe senner joe rider cactus org joe mpd tandem com bmw mailing list bmw rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org
rec.motorcycles	personal to michael moscoso michael you sent your inquiry to the bmw mailing list but the sw replaces your return addr with the list addr so i can t reply or manually add you please see my post re the list or contact me directly joe senner joe rider cactus org bmw mailing list bmw rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org
rec.motorcycles	xs never needs valve adjustments i bought a yamaha xs with k miles over the last years i ve put k of commute miles onnit valve adjustment intervals are suppossed to be every k well every k or so i ve checked the pad clearences and they never change if anything the clearances seem to be getting a little smaller which makes no sense to me with the pad system the pads should wear until the clearances are too great right i know that threaded adjusters can tighten up but i didn t think these kind could bottom lines is that i haven t touched my valves for k on this bike and they are still nice and quiet and if anything the clearances are tighter what s the deal any other yam triple owners notice extremely long valve adjustment intervals
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other in article mdennie beryllium mdennie xerox com matt dennie writes in apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes in article apr ttinews tti com paulb harley tti com paul blumstein writes i ve had people in cages wave at me or give me the thumbs up on occassion i always return the wave or thumbs up that never happened to me until i started riding harleys so that may have something to do with it ever notice little kid wave more than other bikers the reactions of little boys seems to be the most enthusiastic to a wave and also good to see i always wave when i see a kid that has at least noticed my bike i figure it helps the future of the sport yeah it s impossible to be a tough biker when a year old starts waving at you the beav mike beavington dod v sabre mbeaving bnr ca my employer has no idea what i m talking about
rec.motorcycles	re test ride on a gts in article r finnqsp spim mti sgi com timl zulu mti sgi com tim layman writes after signing the i will buy the bike if i wreck it and i will not sue you no matter what papers they just pointed me at the bike and said have fun i was a little nervous well a lot nervous mainly because it is a very expensive bike and i would hate to have to buy a new one let alone a wrecked one are you sure harley s disclaimer says if you crash we take care of the bike you take care of you if you were really responsible for the bike did your insurance cover it ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other in article beryllium mdennie xerox com matt dennie writes is it a genetic thing with little boys or what even three and four year old boys seem magnetically attracted to motorcycles of virtaully any sort often to the dismay of thier mothers i think you just answered your own question ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re wanted uk bmw insu tips i d benham on the wed apr gmt wibbled hi i m now in the market for buying a bmw the ideal would be an r rs but i d be interested to here of any r for sale age is not a problem i m more interested in a good example without a massive amount of miles and one which has been well maintained as i intend to keep it well and for some time i would also like to know if anyone has any sound advice as regards to insurance yr old licence for years no accidents claims convictions am i old enough to get bmw owners club insurance yet or will i have to wait until next year ian future beemer owner my best advice would be to contact a local dealer see the yellow pages under motorcycle dealers and ask for the address of the local section bmw owners club the local bmw dealer will give you details of the bmw insurance terms and the club will help you with all details getting a bike from the dealer is the best bet if you can afford it the warranty is fairly handy as bm bits are made from solid gold apart from the parts made from ruby and platinum apparently nick the perpetually broke bmw biker dod concise oxford no loot m lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated at bnr o o npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay maidenhead the united kingdom o pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re first bike honda ascot nbetz csi compuserve com nathan betz writes i m going to be buying my first bike and i m considering an honda ascot ft with less than k miles does this sound like a reasonable choice is there anything special i need to know an ft ascot was my first bike i recommend it if anyone s interested mine s for sale it s in la currently with a bum starter and around k miles i d like a couple hundred for it rich
rec.motorcycles	re new to motorcycles l lmsc is lmsc lockheed com writes thread degenerated to comparative costs of msf courses deleted hey even at the highest price mentioned us the course is in glassboro new jersey a bargain worth every penny and there are lots of things you ll get related to your bike that won t feel that way about patricia phj remus rutgers edu
rec.motorcycles	re bmw heated grips in article c xy x g world std com artc world std com art campbell writes bergman panix com mark bergman writes to those of you who have the bmw heated handgrips what are they like during the summer yes you wiseguy i mean while they are off are they comfortable they re a hard rubber like compound i always wear some kind of glove fingerless on the hottest days given those two factors they re ok but certainly not cushy when i needed heated grips i made them from pieces of an old bicycle inner tube and a cheap electric heating pad from the drugstore on top of foam grips soft and warm cheaper by about a factor of too david karr karr cs cornell edu
rec.motorcycles	re death of a stroke why did it die zebee wattle itd adelaide edu au zebee johnstone writes loads of horrendous mz engine problems deleted any ideas folks yeah buy a four stroke
rec.motorcycles	re cb c with flames out the exhaust in article c w y ebt cmptrc lonestar org neal cmptrc lonestar org neal howard wrote hey the lone biker of the apocalypse see raising arizona had flames coming out of both his exhaust pipes i love to toggle the kill switch on my sportster to produce flaming backfires especially underneath overpasses at night it s loud and lights up the whole underpass it does i do it to keep people off my ass they really back away when they see canon fire rolling out the back of a harley oh yea it raises hell with the baffles john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re posted gif of bmw r s in article apr news columbia edu scs cunixb cc columbia edu sebastian c sears wrote went and played w columbia s scanner and scanned in a bunch of pictures of my new to me bmw r s they are however not color but greyscale gifs mind posting those to the euro archive we have a directory specifically for bmws ftp vax winona msus edu user euro pass spooge cd bmw get and put as you please john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re drinking and riding hartzler cbmvax cbm commodore com jerry hartzler cats writes in article apr aber ac uk azw aber ac uk andy woodward writes i generally find that after two or three decent hits of nitrous my riding improves enormously drinking is silly your breath smells it costs lots of money and the pigs can detect it with their machines no works for me try it and its free just sit behind an old car in a jam and breathe deeply only if there is a dentist in the car otherwise you get no out the back me thinks you gots your gases confused what comes out of cars is carbon monoxide what comes out of whippits is nitrous oxide co n o
rec.motorcycles	back breaker near hit about a year and half ago when i first started riding i took a msf course i have taken those lessons to heart over the past year i have had only a few near collisions with traffic morons on four wheels yesterday i got to add another to the list but with this one i felt the most helpless i am sitting at a light about car lengths behind a car a wise decsion suddenly i hear screeching tires i dart my eyes to my mirrors and realize it s the moroon flying up right behind me in my panic i pop my clutch and stall the bike luckily the guy stops a foot behind my rear wheel i understand why you theoretically stop so far behind a car but can you really in actuality avoid such an incident suggestions
rec.motorcycles	re i need your advice i m a new rider in article apr bsu ucs cjmelching leo bsuvc bsu edu writes the tachometer has a sticker right on it that says for the first miles do not go over rpm s and for the next miles don t go over referred to as the break in period if you didn t know well if i were to do that i would never be going over mph even in th gear so my question is will it hurt my new cycle to take it up in the rpm range so that i can at least go the speed limit but you already can go at the speed limit at rpm all you need to do is to find a road with a mph speed limit this isn t quite as silly as it sounds if you take a nice day trip over back roads not highways full of people trying seriously to get from here to there then you might be able to hold mph comfortably you could easily do miles over three different weekends you might even get to enjoy some of the scenery yes i know this is probably not why you bought a called ninja david karr karr cs cornell edu bmw r dod also bmwmoa nra aclu et al
rec.motorcycles	re please tell me they re not permenant scratches mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes bobm brimstone bob morley writes in article sfppisk wb hpo e andrew cmu edu catherine barbara saum cs andrew cmu edu writes while passngering on my fiance s bandit my hip pack rubbed against the tail and left a nasty dull finish and teeny scratches is there a way to get rid of these buff them out wax them out help mcguyers makes a full line of polishing compounds and waxes read the lables and pick the one that matches the marks that you see on the paint then do both you and your fiance a favor by putting a nice thick coat of the carnuba wax on the bike after that those little scratches will just buff out concours sophisticated lady tom dietrich cc sportster ol sport for sale dod sr spike the garage rat ama queued for an m fssnoc two jousts and a gather big fun kspt ma bell cool as a rule but sometimes e mail txd able mkt com com h lewis disclaimer com takes no responsibility for opinions preceding this
rec.motorcycles	re how to buy a first bike etc in article c x vh in inform co nz dev inform co nz michael seales writes in article apr galaxy gov bc ca bclarke galaxy gov bc ca writes there have been a lot of posts lately about i wanna buy my first bike is a gsxr zx cbr fzr a good bike to learn on etc sure they are here we can buy gsxr gsxr cbr cbr fzr fzr zxr so what s the problem small agile learner s bikes well the problem just might be that you can t buy any of these bikes in north america except the gsxr bandit bruce clarke b c environment e mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca
rec.motorcycles	none i am thinking of going on a motorcycle tour in new zealand in the november january timeframe there are a few tour companies doing this notably beach tours can anyone who has done this let me know of their experiences both good and bad thanks bruce clarke b c environment e mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca
rec.motorcycles	re well blow me down yuk yuk yuk in article apr news columbia edu rdc cunixf cc columbia edu robert d castro writes when how do you decide that it is too windy to ride too easy when you are dragging your pegs while driving in a straight line actually i ve driven in mph side winds with just a little difficulty the beav mike beavington dod v sabre mbeaving bnr ca my employer has no idea what i m talking about
rec.motorcycles	re contemplating ottawa san francisco ottawa trip in article lbpvs l quantum qnx com david gibbs dagibbs quantum qnx com writes greetings rec motorcyclists coming up labour day weekend this year worldcon world science fiction convention will be held in san francisco california i am planning to attend and have been speculating on doing my trip there by motorcycle instead of by plane as was my initial thought i live and would be departing from ottawa ontario canada i had planned to take two weeks for this trip giving me days travel time on either side of the weekend this looks like a distance of about miles km if your distance calc is correct for an on the road distance and not as the crow flies this is km a day for days if you spend the entire time on interstates which would be a total waste of time that s at least hours on the road every day not including eating peeing sight seeing etc i was contemplating a similar trip but from ottawa to la or maybe ottawa to austin tx i figured if i wanna do a trip of this magnitude and enjoy it i d have to get my ass off the major interstates and spend lots of time enjoying the country around me i e stopping with a camera meeting towns people going to a few bars no sense spending weeks looking out a helmet with the closest human contact found at the gas pump i estimated i d need at least weeks to make the trip worthwhile i am looking for input opinions comments or snarky remarks on my sanity in question suggested routes note getting there is important and my schedule doesn t leave a lot of room for side trips or circuitous routes try and stay off the interstates anybody who wants to join me on this trip for even part of the distance depending on your route and my plans i may be heading that way as far as at least detroit anything that comes to mind and that you think might be relevant call the whithorse pess they re a book distributer catering to motorcyclists they have a large number of books highlighting the best roads for motorcyclists along the general route you re looking at they carry listings of bed and breakfasts all through the states which accept motorcyclists order their free catalog and within you ll probably find books covering absolutely all you needs for this trip their s in the motorcyclist and or cycle world classifieds thanks for any input david gibbs dagibbs qnx com kawasaki concours dod o k dave d f it s true they say that money talks when mine spoke it said buy me a drink
rec.motorcycles	re well blow me down yuk yuk yuk in article news columbia edu rdc cunixf cc columbia edu robert d castro writes when how do you decide that it is too windy to ride when it s too windy to stand when you re on the road in high winds stay alert even more alert than your alert cause you re on a motorcycle and they re out to kill you kind of alert be aware of the terrain and how it may funnel wind in sudden gusts well not gusts to somebody standing there but it s gusty cause you ride through it if you are riding in a steady crosswind be aware of a hill that will block the wind and adjust your lean angle be aware of passing trucks to your windward side your lean angle will change dramatically both as you enter and as you leave their turbulance cone reducing your profile may help ie lean on the gas tank and kiss the triple clamp keep a nimble hand on the steering be ready to countersteer into and out of sudden wind bursts keep a larger than usual buffer zone both ahead and behind and to the side you can easily be blown half a lane over before you can react by countersteering keep a close eye on traffic in your mirror if someone is coming up wanting to pass get out of their way early stop often for short brakes extensive riding in high winds is both mentally and physically fatiguing ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re so do any xxxx i mean police officers read this stuff bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes and introducing a new polysyllabic word strabismic for example polysyllabic is polysyllabic too
rec.motorcycles	re starting trouble cbr f in article z sf rpi edu chungy aix rpi edu yau felix chung writes i am having trouble starting keeping running my cbr f i have had problems with it since last year but it seemed to have subsided now it s back again problem persists regardless of choke usage pattern gasoline type brand octane and pretty much anything else i can imagine to change the dealer is stumped it s still under warranty i start the bike it runs great for a while seconds then the engine starts to slow down decreasing the idle setting will increase the engine speed increasing the choke increases the engine speed regardless the engine will eventually slow down and stop once stopped it will not restart even after flooded engine drill if i let it sit minutes it starts beautifully and runs great for ever so i go out ride it hard for miles and bring it back ride it easy for a few miles to let it cool down and put it away next day i go thru the same drill to get it going any ideas has anyone seen this before another f rider had similiar problems and this is the mail i sent him hope this helps resolve you problem at allen tobias writes check the vent tube to the tank sometimes the tube is clogged or constricted this prevents gas from flowing into the carbs because of the vacuum created by the displacement of the gasoline this is the small tube on the bottom of the tank the large tube is the overflow you will have to remove the left side tail section to get access to this area good luck but if it was clogged wouldn t this interfere with engine operation all the time when it runs it runs well good point did not catch this in the original post the only other things which come to mind since this is a gravity feed fuel system is this the fuel petcock valve is vacuum controlled from the carburator let suppose there is a small hole or bad seal either in the hose itself or the vacuum valve in the fuel petcock when it is cold the hole is open enough to open the valve just enough to allow gas to the carbs with the choke on since the choke creates more low pressure in the carbs when on to draw gas and as the engine and surrounding area warm up the hole seals up one way to check fuel flow through the valve would be to pull the side panels off and remove the fuel hose to the carbs connect a tube of the correct size preferably clear tubing to observe fuel flow on the output side of the fuel petcock remove the control hose from carburator make sure the tank is full place the valve in the on position and apply vacuum to the control hose preferably with a vacuum device with a gauge to check for air leaks with vacuum applied fuel should flow freely to see if there is a vent problem do this with the fuel filler cap open and closed if it flows a lot faster with the filler cap open then there may be something in the vent airway which changes position and depending on the position may clog or partially clog the vent i have heard of some f fuel tanks being replaced to fix this problem so the things which might be defective are the control hose from carb the petcock valve and possibly the fuel tank vent now if all of the above shows no problem of fuel flow when cold then there is something in the carbs screwed up but there are so many things to check i would be typing all day to list them all here are a few with everything back together apply vacuum to the petcock valve and open the drain holes on the carbs one by one to check fuel flow open up the airbox and check for foreign debris or clogged airways on the carbs there are quite a few on each carb i hope something is flushed out with all this trouble shooting if american honda does not resolve this get mad as hell and report them to the bbb and call the honda customer service hotline it is a number but i don t recall it off the top of my head i called just about tires for my f and a few days later a customer satisfaction inquiry card arrived at home asking how i liked the support i received here would be your chance to tell them what you think buy the service manual on the f it is an invaluable source of information for working on your bike and i might add trouble shooting
rec.motorcycles	re bikes jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada do you know what syd meant when he wrote that line damn am i in the wrong newsgroup again wrong newsgroup or no what did syd mean when he wrote that line erc the always curious dod
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax in article c wqsr l myrddin imat com nelson seahunt imat com michael nelson writes in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes my chain is lubed my wheel is clean after km careful i was similarly impressed with it at first but recently i have started finding rust spots on the chain i went back to pj at least the sucker never rusted when i was using the bluegoo tm spray the chain wax onto the rollers and sideplates occassionally and rust will not be a problem later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re xs never needs valve adjustments smead hpstc rose hp com steve smead writes i bought a yamaha xs with k miles over the last years i ve put k of commute miles onnit valve adjustment intervals are suppossed to be every k well every k or so i ve checked the pad clearences and they never change if anything the clearances seem to be getting a little smaller which makes no sense to me with the pad system the pads should wear until the clearances are too great right i know that threaded adjusters can tighten up but i didn t think these kind could bottom lines is that i haven t touched my valves for k on this bike and they are still nice and quiet and if anything the clearances are tighter what s the deal any other yam triple owners notice extremely long valve adjustment intervals yeah i had an xs that was the same the valve seats tend to wear very slowly and anything that might get taken off the pad which shouldn t really wear will tend to compensate so it s a sort of self compensating system
rec.motorcycles	re dogs vs bikes in article rmccu cunyvm bitnet rmccu cunyvm bitnet robert chambers writes in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante says if you can t you ve obviously waited too long or are not putting much effort into it my lb dog not always used to fart all the time by making her notice it of course the smell doesn t bother her and thence kicking her outside somewhat literally she came to realize that she shoudln t do it at least not around me and now two years later she still doesn t so how big is this dog now about the size of cow ready to burst what s that supposed to mean she s lbs understand english she let wind break cause i fed her cheap food and not the same thing every time so she had to adjust to each different brand for a while andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re its still cold but in r pli hoc agate berkeley edu robinson cogsci berkeley edu michael robinson writes in article apr aber ac uk azw aber ac uk andy woodward writes why just the other day a large group of us where lamenting how much we admire and wish we could be just like those macho british studs we ve all grown up idolizing well and i thought all yanks were parochial ostriches so some of you can at least aspire to better things andy when are you ever going to get it straight all yanks are self satisfied gits it s the canadians that are parochial ostriches no the yanks are we are are midway through our insipid invasion of florida and they aren t even aware of it yet jorg klinger gsxr if you only new who arch eng services lost horizons cr i think i am umanitoba man ca the embalmer it anonymous squidonk
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article apr asl dl nec com drinckes tssc wlg nec co jp writes course the only people who seem to be acting smug now probably have chain final drive which as we all know is less efficient and has higher maintenance and probably didn t know the answer at the start of the thread when did you go out and change the laws of physics according to some numbers i used to see bandied around shaft drive is on the order of efficient while chain drive is closer to seems to me that this makes chain drive more efficient hmmmmm and granted shaft has a lot less maintenance which is fine if you don t mind less performance randy davis email randy megatek com zx pilot uunet ucsd megatek randy dod but this one goes to eleven nigel tufnel spinal tap
rec.motorcycles	re your opinion and what it means to me in article c wduw l o nmrdc nmrdc nnmc navy mil dsc jfs nmrdc nmrdc nnmc navy mil jim small writes in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes since the occurance i ve paid many dollars in renumerance taken the drunk class and yes listened to all the self righteous assholes like yourself that think your so above the rest of the world because you ve never had your own little dd suaree some of us aren t that fucking stupid you cock sucking asshole that s why we haven t had our own little dd suaree i m soo impressed that you ve had to spend your own precious little dollars to make up for your own stupid act now go fuck off friends killed by drunk driving assholes like andress infante children friends orphaned by drunk driving assholes like infante now who s the self righteous asshole you weak willed fuck head i think you are small feeble minded bunghole yeah it was one stupid little act when are people like you gonna get it through they re thick excuses for a skull to their pea sized piece of shit they call a brain that it was once why don t you go back under the rock that the navy has provided for you and your homophobic racist sexist asshole friends that who give you daily rim jobs and place your opinion where it belongs up your ass or alternatively blow me you closeted wannabe andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re i need your advice i m a new rider in article apr bsu ucs cjmelching leo bsuvc bsu edu writes well if i were to do that i would never be going over mph even in th gear so my question is will it hurt my new cycle to take it up in the rpm range so that i can at least go the speed limit i had the same inconvenience when i bought my ex only i could at least go mph during the initial break in despite the high quality of motor oils and motorcycle engines these days i would follow the instructions and just keep to city street riding for the first miles heck those miles go by fast and it s worth it to know you haven t possibly screwed up your engine at the same time this has all the makings of a week long thread debating the whole break in topic alan
rec.motorcycles	re i need your advice i m a new rider in article apr bsu ucs cjmelching leo bsuvc bsu edu writes i have a very important question that i haven t been able to find an answer to i ve asked mechanics and others about this but no one can really give me an answer that satisfies me i just bought a brand new kawasaki ninja i am a first time buyer as well as a first time rider and this bike seemed to satisfy all my needs this may be the reason i don t know the answer to this question the tachometer has a sticker right on it that says for the first miles do not go over rpm s and for the next miles don t go over referred to as the break in period if you didn t know well if i were to do that i would never be going over mph even in th gear so my question is will it hurt my new cycle to take it up in the rpm range so that i can at least go the speed limit any information that any of you could give me would be greatly appreciated just send the reply to my account or if you d like back to the net thank you very much for taking the time to read reply to this chris melching go the speed limit as long as your not at the salt flats you arn t gonna frag yer ride i wouldn t ride the dod minimum until it had miles on it but hell i do that on a good weekend dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines hey where did they go you don t think naahh
rec.motorcycles	re dogs speedy mercer speedy engr latech edu wrote let fido have yer left arm as he bites it bring your right forearm down hard on the back of his neck while bushing back and up with the left arm in fido s mouth this will be followed by a dull crack and one limp dog total cost to you a couple of holes in your left arm if you arn t wearing leather so how does aerostitch hold up with this procedure i m ordering mine monday may and i m happy about it too mike mike mitten gnome pd org emory pd org gnome ama dod irony is the spice of life bianchi backstreet suzuki gs gl the revolution will not be televised
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering sans hands so how do i steer when my hands aren t on the bars open budweiser in david gibbs replies just in case the original poster was looking for a serious answer i ll supply one yes even when steering no hands you do something quite similar to countersteering basically to turn left you to a quick wiggle of the bike to the right first causing a counteracting lean to i guess i was semi serious without using my hands i lean and the bike turns when leaning a torque is applied at a deg angle to the front wheel s axle just as in countersteering however this torque is also about deg from the axis of the steering head instead of making the bike lean gyroscopic effect makes the bars turn but i don t remember which way rick oh yeah i tried this in the driveway on the centestand as suggested somewhere else but it doesn t seem to work the same rick clarke clarke bdrc bd com ama something something
rec.motorcycles	re so do any xxxx i mean police officers read this stuff in article apr dsd es com bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes flaming tutorial for the novice another thing to consider is that like mexican food a lot of folks mistake heat for quality subtle references to various personal qualities habits ancestry possesions generally earn more points than four letter words or the caps lock key and introducing a new polysyllabic word strabismic for example is likely to insure that some small part of your flame will become immortal zounds there s a blast from the past indeed i d nearly forgotten about the strategic significance of strabismic in r m lore it s really good to see it proudly displayed again although i m sure by now that its carbs are spooge o rama from long disuse gosh i m tingling all over chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	low powered bikes scooters does anybody share my opinion that in big city traffic a bike can be so low powered that for example it cant accelerate out of trouble when necessary the screwed down versions of bikes sold on the german market with the different classes of liscence seems to make a lot of middle aged men putt putt around on km hr maschines that are constantle getting in the way of real traffic does anybody else have opinions on this topic snuffy email snuffy zelator in berlin de ronald j bartle ron is looking for new work berlin voice but i do rent rooms again fax
rec.motorcycles	re back breaker near hit in article tu menudo uh edu inde wv rosie uh edu writes i understand why you theoretically stop so far behind a car but can you really in actuality avoid such an incident suggestions an even better strategy is to leave less of a buffer between you and the car in front but enough to manuver around it keep the bike in st gear with the clutch handle squeezed in how s that for engaged disengaged until there are two cars stopped behind you when the next bdi cager comes screaching in simply ride up along side of the car in front of you you don t need to panic and do it or you will pop the clutch and stall the engine do is smoothly just rapidly the cage in front of you will provide much better protection than anything else particularly empty road ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack what worked for me on my rd was to lean towards the dog as i modulated throttle to keep my ankle just ahead of his teeth after a few seconds of warm pipe firmly wedged on his shoulder he turned his face sideways to see what was so warm and got his mouth nose muzzle burned on the pipes one yip and he veered away never to chase me again neil kirby dod nak archie cbusa att com at t bell labs columbus oh usa if you think i speak for at t you might have more lawyers than sense
rec.motorcycles	re why i wanted police officers to answer my posting in article shaman wv tek com robd orca wv tek com writes in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes you really expect a cop to answer these honestly first you gotta expect a cop to be honest that s another story yeah everybody knows cops always lie and the people they deal with day in and day out always tell the truth no sir occifer sir i wazznut drinking tonight i was just playing around back there no sir i wasn t speeding i was realy only going xxmph it was that guy next to me didn t ya see him come on stereotyping cops is no better than those that stereo type us what say we try to show the same open mind to those around us as we would ask for ourselves i know its a stretch but its worth a try my reason for saying that was cause i if i were a cop wouldn t go out of my way to tell people how to break the law would you the part about honesty was a joke sorta obviously people have had bad experiences with cops lying obviously nobody s perfect and nobody always tells the truth about everything or are you god andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re daytona in rtaraz apr bigwpi wpi edu rtaraz bigwpi wpi edu ramin taraz writes well i watched the daytona race on tnn boy for the people who saw it was the yamaha a lot faster than the kawi or what on the last stretch the yami took of and left the kawi in the dust i am a kawi rider and am totaly disappointed in the kawi lawson was on the yamaha not taking anything away from russel but well jorg klinger gsxr if you only new who arch eng services lost horizons cr i think i am umanitoba man ca the embalmer it anonymous squidonk
rec.motorcycles	re its still cold but in article c y t la ccu umanitoba ca klinger ccu umanitoba ca jorg klinger writes in r pli hoc agate berkeley edu robinson cogsci berkeley edu michael robinson writes andy when are you ever going to get it straight all yanks are self satisfied gits it s the canadians that are parochial ostriches no the yanks are we are are midway through our insipid invasion of florida and they aren t even aware of it yet typical their first attempt at foriegn policy adventurism and no one even notices canadians they can even make balkanization boring michael robinson uucp ucbvax cogsci robinson internet robinson cogsci berkeley edu
rec.motorcycles	locks and security was re yamaha locks this is maybe not a pet peeve but definitely a playmate peeve in article c uxrp f news cis umn edu wfk lynx spa umn edu bill ketzeback writes any lock including the kyptonite utypes are easy to break into if the person has the proper supplies and or motivation minutes and your bike is gone i would be glad to explain but i dont want to contribute to any unlawful activities does this make anyone s skeptic alarm tm go off no offense bill i don t mean to say that you re not being straight but i wonder how you know about this have you actually every used your secret method to break all the different kinds of bike locks or are you taking someone s word for it the fact is it is unlikely that someone reading anything here is going to go into a successful bike stealing business because they read anything in rec motorcycles so please tell us what you are talking about we can t even protect against an assault or discuss methods if you don t come out with it see i have heard the ones about the pipes and the liquid nitrogen and the cordless dremel tools and a bunch of other ones the most plausable method i am not a bike thief so i really don t know for certain is just to put a rod through each wheel and use four guys to just lift the bike into a truck this works because most people don t lock their bikes to anything since that method is so childishly easy i figure a nice visible chain or cable locking the bike to something is likely to make a lazy thief go on to the next bike hey finally an advantage to the weight and high cg of the concours especially since i have a bike that i would hate to see ripped off by such a trival tactic warning no lock alone is a safe deterent against theft the thief doesnt need to be a locksmith or a lock picker to walk away with your property i personally think motion alarms in combination to a lock of this type is the way to go if in fact you are that concerned what tactic are you referring to if we don t know what you are talking about we can t very well guard against it can we for my money literally i rely on a combination of a motion detector alarm with pager when i m out of earshot of the bike in a questionable area c c insurance and i try to park in obvious visible areas with lots of people about see if someone just plays with the bike without intention of stealing it at least some eyes are on it and if they get too rambunctious they ll set off the alarm that s for a nice bike for a ratbike the trick is to always keep its actual value well below blue book so that it looks so crappy nobody would want to steal it and even if they were stupid enough to you would make a profit on the deal seriously if i for instance need to go on a business trip for a week and sadly have to leave the bikes sitting they both get a shitty looking but useable cover locked on and both bikes locked to each other and a curb bumper in the parking lot under the light i usually rig the cable locks i use aircraft cable so that if anyone pulls on either bike or the cable joining them the concours alarm goes off and i have a friend come buy every day to have a look and make sure they re still there the only thing i have ever had stolen was a cover and that was over winter storage with the battery out of the bike and thus no alarm oh put your own eyelets into the cover for the locks to pass through and place them so that they have to absolutely destroy the cover to get it off that s the best that i can think of most of the locks i see people put on bikes look well not too mechanically sound i like abus since i have personally removed master locks from lockers with my boot dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com i m getting tired of concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you up dave rz ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon
rec.motorcycles	re back breaker near hit in article r o tu menudo uh edu inde wv rosie uh edu wrote bdc driver nearly rams back of innocent biker i understand why you theoretically stop so far behind a car but can you really in actuality avoid such an incident suggestions glad to hear that the bozo managed to stop i ve only been riding for about two years but here are my rules for traffic light survival i try to never stop just over a hill behind a car if i have to stop in such a location i pull almost completely next to the car in front of me if i m the only one ie no car in front i turn the bike somewhat sideways across the lane to increase my visibility to any oncoming vehicle make sure to keep your taillight visible to traffic though note my bike is bright white turning sideways on a black bike might not be as beneficial on a flat road i stop with a bit of room ahead of me usually about two or three bike lengths this will hopefully give me room to pull forward and to the side as a car approaches if you are the last in a line of vehicles watch your mirrors constantly if you see a vehicle approaching and can t see any evidence to indicate that he she is slowing down get out of the way now flicker your brake light if i m the last vehicle in line i will pull and release the brake as a car approaches from behind noticed the car by watching my mirrors of course i vary the speed of the flicker hoping to make the cager notice that there s something in the lane ahead of him now with all that said it s the situation where you are first in line that i feel most defenseless if you re first in line your forward escape route is seriously limited you can only move forward to the extent that you don t enter the intersection i leave some room behind the stop line although around here the light activators are always right up next to the stop line and watch the mirrors i think i ve decided that hopping off the bike might be the best way out of this situation any other ideas for being first in line with no traffic directly behind you rob rob griffiths erasure shonalaing wildswans b s u judybats rem smiths robg apple com faa certified cloud basher i wanna drive the zamboni
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other while on my bike i wave to anyone who looks sort of like the small town or wide open spaces type thing that someone from louisiana mentioned like when i m in arkansas or helena mt kids are especially fun both genders watch it cliff in the cage i usually wave to bikers they usually don t wave back my wife thinks it s strange but i don t care jim bessette james bessette att com
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack in article c y gp an cbnews cb att com nak cbnews cb att com neil a kirby wrote what worked for me on my rd was to lean towards the dog as i modulated throttle to keep my ankle just ahead of his teeth after a few seconds of warm pipe firmly wedged on his shoulder he turned his face sideways to see what was so warm and got his mouth nose muzzle burned on the pipes one yip and he veered away never to chase me again nice ridin tex i use the california dmv recommended technique slow as you aproach said dog and wick it up as you pass i ve often contemplated putting the boot in said dog s muzzle as i open the throttle but have never tried that i figgure the impact would unballance me and i d dump the bike a bicycling technique i ve employed was to use my frame mounted tire pump to fend off dog attacks on one occasion i was attacked by a pack of four dogs at once while peddaling up a steep hill i lost my right sock but no blood i complained to the local animal control department after complaining to the owner of the dogs to no affect about the dogs no more dogs no more attacks the telephone worked much better than the tire pump eric bong dod fz fzr vfr
rec.motorcycles	re well blow me down yuk yuk yuk in article apr news columbia edu rob castro writes when how do you decide that it is too windy to ride isn t that one of those self evident things like how do you decide that you re out of gas i have never experienced wind so severe it physically precluded operation of a motorcycle it s more a matter of deciding whether the aggravation is more trouble than it s worth this of course depends entirely on your own particular circumstances and personal disposition michael robinson uucp ucbvax cogsci robinson internet robinson cogsci berkeley edu
rec.motorcycles	re so do any xxxx i mean police officers read this stuff in article apr dsd es com bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes in article ltdv ainn hb earth cs utexas edu mcguire cs utexas edu tommy marcus mcguire writes in article r ob oav vtserf cc vt edu ranck joesbar cc vt edu wm l ranck writes and of course you will get a moderate amount of flamage just for expressing an opinion no matter what the opinion is somebody will flame you for it hey what the hell do you mean by that you suck i have a god given right to express opinions carry a gun and to not wear a helmet goddamn it everything you stand for is stupid i d give it an on a scale of while not mentioning hitler or koresh weighs in your favor you also neglected to mention mph tennis balls little girls and countersteering another thing to consider is or centerstands or weasel squeezers or later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack in article bong kfp slac mac slac stanford edu bong slac stanford edu eric bong writes nice ridin tex i use the california dmv recommended technique slow as you aproach said dog and wick it up as you pass i ve often this must be the standard strategy that is taught cuz that s what they told me to do in my illinois msf class it works well only you don t get the satisfaction of kicking the shit out of some rabid hell beast alan
rec.motorcycles	kawi kz partial engine disassembly my kawasaki kz l has millimetres of play on the gearchange pedal axle in other words i can move the axle sideways up and down for few millimetres to each direction this doesn t bother me when riding but i guess fixing it wouldn t hurt last summer i took the bike to a shop to have the valves adjusted and the mechanic mentioned that it should be an easy job all i would have to do is to remove the front sprocket cover and replace a bushing or a seal that i would find there well upon a closer inspection i discovered that the gearchange axle doesn t even run through the sprocket cover it seems that in addition to removing the cover i would have at least to remove the sprocket and then the cover that is behind the sprocket question would removing this small cover from the left side of the engine enable me to lay my hands on that bushing seal don t know the exact term in english sorry question has anybody done this disassembly job for this or some other purpose does the oil for example stay inside the engine thanks teppo nieminen dod zoo mc helsinki finland
rec.motorcycles	what do i do with old gasoline help i have a cl which i stopped riding about years ago i upgraded to an sabre i parked it in the corner of my parking lot and planned on draining the gas spraying oil in the tank etc to get it ready to store well after a lot of procrastination all i ended up doing was throwing a tarp on it well now i have to move and want to clean up the i tried starting it with someone else s battery and had no luck my first guess is that it is the gas and so i plan on draining it and replacing it with new gas i can only pray that i didn t trash the carbeurators the question is what do i do with this old gas i am not going to run it in my sabre and i think that there is enough that i don t want to burn it campus police don t think too kindly about bonfires dumping it isn t a great idea thanks for any ideas george heinz win the question what does this c code do no fair compiling it int a main z p q r for p q p p a p for z z q r time r q q q q p p p p q a p q a p a p q q q for q printf q c c n a q
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion rwert well sf ca us bob wert writes are there traditional signals for slow down or go faster or i hafta go pee etc my experience is when they pound their fists on your back it means slow down seriously concentrate on being very smooth and you will make her experience much more enjoyable even a normal upshift causes your passenger to bob so i ease off the throttle before pulling in the clutch to eliminate this it s more work but your passenger will appreciate it also i ve found that using more rear brake than normal helps keep the bike from diving as much during routine stops which makes it much easier for the passenger to hang on if you re going sport riding have the passenger reach around you and brace themselves against the tank so you don t have to bear both your weights with your arms again your bike will dive less too paul thompson apple computer
rec.motorcycles	re why i wanted police officers to answer my posting viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes and copped heh an attitude when he was stopped speaking as a guy who recieved a verbal warning for mph in a i just have to laugh hey dan some potentially cool story stuff here do share the details i never get a break probably most of us don t either so please enlighten and enliven and let us live vicariously waitin for that story erc grandrapids mi usa vfr f dod
rec.motorcycles	re dod confessional in article apr bnr ca mbeaving bnr ca writes i hate pre s motorcycles at first i thought it was a phase i though i would get used to them it didn t happen i tried gazing at cb s and customs thats pretty hard since cb customs weren t introduced until if you find a pre one hold onto it it will be worth big bucks some day what am i to do everytime i read a sig containing some spoked wheel wonder i shudder and feel pity that the poor soul has suffered enough mine has comstar wheels methinks you need to do your homework better my employer has no idea what i m talking about and obviously neither do you keith schauer texas instruments plain o texas cb custom dod in an insane society the sane man must appear insane ama my company disavows any knowledge of my actions
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes in article unisql uucp ray unisql uucp ray shea writes everything in louisiana is related to liquor eating sleeping walking talking church state life death and everything in between how dare you make such an accusation accusation i thought it was a recommendation i mean i did grow up there i oughta know if we wern t so busy unloading the beer truck for the week end i might just come up that and have a talk wit you b bring the truck and about pounds of crawfish and we ll talk ray shea unisql inc unisql ray cs utexas edu dod team twinkie hawk gt
rec.motorcycles	re so do any xxxx i mean police officers read this stuff in article r ob oav vtserf cc vt edu ranck joesbar cc vt edu wm l ranck writes and of course you will get a moderate amount of flamage just for expressing an opinion no matter what the opinion is somebody will flame you for it oh bill you are so full of shit that s the stupidest thing i ve ever heard obmoto i happened to miss the discussion of deltabox frames if there was one because i actually needed to get some work done last week so if anybody would care to repeat what got said since i was the guy who asked and i m still ignorant could you email me thanks ray shea unisql inc unisql ray cs utexas edu dod team twinkie hawk gt
rec.motorcycles	re so do any xxxx i mean police officers read this stuff in article apr dsd es com bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes in article ltdv ainn hb earth cs utexas edu mcguire cs utexas edu tommy marcus mcguire writes hey what the hell do you mean by that you suck i have a god given right to express opinions carry a gun and to not wear a helmet goddamn it everything you stand for is stupid i d give it an on a scale of while not mentioning hitler or koresh weighs in your favor you also neglected to mention mph tennis balls little girls and countersteering another thing to consider is that like mexican food a lot of folks mistake heat for quality subtle references to various personal qualities habits ancestry possesions generally earn more points than four letter words or the caps lock key and introducing a new polysyllabic word strabismic for example is likely to insure that some small part of your flame will become immortal blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com aw c mon the serious overreaction ought to be worth a couple of points not to mention the bit condemning everthing the flamee might ever say the non sequitur about guns and helmets is just the proper flourish i personally am of the opinion that there are two types of good flames the first does trade quality in the sense you mention for heat this has a certain surprise value and if done correctly which i contend was done above is reasonably entertaining while it is true that the flame i posted does not mention anyone s habitual velocity friends dinner or entertainment it says what it needs to with the appropriate flair and it is short the weakness of this type of flame is actually that it can easily be taken too far at which point it becomes trite and boring witness the infante thread recently the other type of flame which you seem to be glorifying above has a few weaknesses as well in the first place it can get verbose and tedious in the extreme particularly if the reader does not already strongly identify with one side or the other in the second discussing someone s personal qualities habits and so forth can quickly become libelous or is that slanderous i can never remember the difference this leads to a proliferation of lawyers which is widely regarded as a bad thing finally introducing polysyllabic words is problematic i can t haul my big dic around on my bike and it would be bad form to use a word which actually turned out to have a meaning especially one which ran counter to my use and flamage in general in summary blaine your score for that flame is incorrect while it may be the wunder flame the weaknesses you point out are not necessarily weaknesses and your suggested corrections are not always useful nor applicable you also probably couldn t outrun a tennis ball with a flatulent dog stapled to your posterior and i ll bet you and your motorcycle lean to the outside while turning the same goes for anyone who looks like you too tommy mcguire mcguire cs utexas edu mcguire austin ibm com i will append an appropriate disclaimer to outgoing public information identifying it as personal and as independent of ibm
rec.motorcycles	are other riders welcome to join group when riding in a group generally speaking do most people mind when another rider tags along i had the distinct feeling i may not have been welcome when i tagged along with a group last weekend jon faults are like car headlights those of others seem more glaring than our own
rec.motorcycles	re dogs in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes in article r c k sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes in article adobe com cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes sheesh even a trained attack dog is no match for a human we have all the advantages i agree with this me too for chihuahua s the police and the military don t train dobermans and shephards and use them as weapons because they are so easy for the average joe to defeat barehanded you may have opposing thumbs but the dog has teeth so effective some of yours are named for him he has ir vision better hearing and better smell than you do and most likely faster reflexes you re on a motorcycle he s on paws roll on and blow him off he doesn t even have net access oh bull pucky ed they use dogs because a many people are scared shitless of them and b because of the nose and the vision and hearing without their cop partner in attendance the dog is so much meat in the hands of any human with a bad attitude and al ittle training in violent force oh horse puckey without their cop partner in attendance they are less likely to be controllable without the use of force which would kill the dog those teeth aren t very much good with an arm shoved into the back of the animals throat and held there and the neck is not o k so you ve disabled the dog s mouth and given up use of your arm to do so how bout them front and read paws and the fact that to plug up that mouth you ve given the dog the advantage of balance espcially strong neither are the leg joints which can be easily snapped or the skull easily crushed on even the largest dogs have you ever tried to snap leg or crush the skull of a dog without use of hardened instruments such as a baseball bat without the use of both arms and full cooperation of the beastie involved it s not that easy oh but wait you ve got your arm shoved in the dogs mouth you lose your advice is correct but a dog is still no match for a trained human in a fight oh now you qualify you earlier statement by saying a trained human sheesh even a trained attack dog is no match for a human we have all the advantages most people here have not been trained to deal with a dog that wants to maul you get a clue regards charles within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person steve mansfield i was told theres a miracle for each day that i try i was smm uunet uu net told there s new love that born for each one that has died suzuki gs e i was told there ll be no one to call on when i feel alone dod and afraid i was told if you dream of the next world you ll find yourself swimming in a lake of fire dream theater metropolis part i the miracle and the sleeper
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion in article mellon apr pepper ncd com mellon ncd com ted lemon writes on a long ride with my ex girlfriend nancy i would notice her drifting off every so often i swore off taking passengers over ten years ago but i recall sturgis getting some strange looks because my passenger was reading a book she was so engrossed that she didn t even notice when we hit a roadkill to make the hit of the day with the riders behind us john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re first bike honda ascot in article c th w o csi compuserve com nbetz csi compuserve com nathan betz writes hi folks i m going to be buying my first bike and i m considering an honda ascot ft with less than k miles does this sound like a reasonable choice is there anything special i need to know thanks nathan nice litle bike i loved riding my brother in law s dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines god is real unless declared integer i came i saw i deleted all your files black holes are where god is dividing by zero the world will end in minutes please log out earth is full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	re krypto cables was re cobra locks to follow up i had a bad experience w a krypto lock too last year i bought a krypto cable ii x long something like that that by all standards seemed like a decent piece until i used it anyway before i ever used it for security purposes i used it for entertainment minds out of the gutter please which is to say that i sat fiddling w it while watching tv the night i got it after three minutes of mindless fiddling of course it was mindless remember i was watching tv the entire tumbler mechanism came out on the key not unlike that old georgie porgie nursery rhyme this left a very empty cylinder and a very non secure read swingin in the breeze cable lock kinda makes me wonder about any flat key style lock one yank w a slide hammer and viola i m making an insurance claim anyone else have a similar experience w the kryptos not bike theft erc
rec.motorcycles	re paint jobs in the uk lisa alex com lisa rowlands writes can anyone recommend a good place for reasonably priced bike paint jobs preferably but not essentially in the london area thanks lisa rowlands try dream machine i ve seen a few examples of their work and it looks pretty good they re in the midlands though
rec.motorcycles	cager antics on the football field there was an article in one of the u k dailies this week about a soccer goalkeeper who had to be carried off the field after a collision with a ford sierra cage seems the cage driver wanted to turn around but needed to drive onto the pitch to do this so he waited till the ball and most of the players were up the other end unfortunately as soon as he started his manouvre someone booted the ball back down the pitch the goalkeeper ran backwards towards his goal straight into the cage
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article bethdc sv netcom com bethd netcom com beth dixon writes beth the one true beth dixon bethd netcom com yamaha sr excitable girl dod yamaha sr spike the garage rat fssnoc ducati ss ama ducati monza restoration project kqspt i can keep a handle on anything just this side of deranged zz top now just wait one cotton picking minute here dod rule section paragraph clearly indicates that multiple people can t lay claim to a bike in an obvious ploy to artificially increase the size of their stable so the question of the day is is spike owned by a lady of true class and breeding my definition any woman who rides or by tom the harely head i also note that you lay no claim to connie or ol sport like i said obviously a lady of discriminating taste bored minds wanta know bj bradw newbridge com no sig no plan no clue dod
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion don t find out if she has to pee by scaring it out of her don t armorall the seat just before her first ride even if you think you will need its urine proofing qualities henry prange biker renal physiologist physiology iu sch med blgtn dod bmwmoa gsi ride r gs rx conv cage explorer cage the four tenets of all major religions i am right you are wrong hence you deserve to be punished by me
rec.motorcycles	re what is a squid was re riceburner respect in article apr locus com dana lando la locus com dana h myers writes in article c qqxp ie cbmvax cbm commodore com hartzler cbmvax cbm commodore com jerry hartzler cats writes in article apr icomsim com mmanning icomsim com michael manning writes duck squids don t wave or return waves ever even to each excuse me for being an ignoramus but what are these squids are everybody but me and you chris behanna is especially a squid a squid is the guy i saw back in december on cool degree morning on my way to work he was wearing knee length pants light jacket no gloves though he was going considerably slower than dod nominal a poser squid was the guy i saw yesterday on my way home similar attire as above sans jacket it is april in texas ya know but he is riding down the freeway left hand on his side kinda robinhoodlike with his body turned slightly left brings a whole new meaning to the term poser
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion a few random thoughts on riding with a passenger there s no substitute for a bike with sufficient power having taken passengers very occasionally on the small etc bikes i used to ride in the uk it was hard i m now riding a gs and that s great even moving from my freinds gsx i was riding recently this may be due in part to the fact that neither i nor my regular passengers are particularly slimline i always tell passengers stay in line with the bike on corners that makes their movements predictable my regular passengers both tend to hold either the rack or nothing at all i don t really like having a passenger hold onto me except for short periods again that may be biased by the fact that i ve had a couple of new passengers a friend recently for her first time on a bike who hold on to me real tight making any kind of maneuvering difficult i ve also discovered that on longer trips i prefer a passenger who moves and shifts their weight a bit i recently took a work collegue to a meeting about a hour ride and he sat totally still the whole way which left me also sitting very still and getting a sore back we have a code system for turns stop and for i need to shift position chris seabrook fujitsu open systems solutions inc phone x hollis street emeryville ca usa fax dod per saltire gules and or a sun counterchanged
rec.motorcycles	hawk gt new seat review unable to stand the pain anymore my wife bought the corbin gunfighter and lady with passenger backrest for my hawk gt it came with no instructions but it came weeks earlier than they said it would installation would have been very easy but the seat fastening hardware was apparently always on the wrong sides with the stock seat it never was easy to put on once i figured that out the new seat went on the first try the passenger backrest though does not fit as i thought it might the supplied screw to set the backrest angle does not fit and i have not yet found a suitable hard sae grade or perhaps bolt that fits there is a a soft bolt in there now just don t lean back the driver s section of the seat is a bit wider seems comfortable enough but then again i put about miles on the stock seat without a thought the passenger s section has about times the volume of foam that the stock seat has and from my short test it seems much more comfortable the backrest helps a bit but i ve not has enough time to really test it the backrest also comes with a small pocket its now more difficult to swing my leg up over the taller seat if i go on the three notch ride soon dixville pinkham smugglers i ll give a more complete report but in general it seems like an improvement frank evan perdicaro xyvision color systems legalize guns drugs and cash today edgewater drive inhouse frank marvin x wakefield ma outhouse frank contex com x
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes i bought it i tried it it is truly the miracle spooge my chain is lubed my wheel is clean after km i d try it on the vfr but goddamn competition accessories hasn t mailed my order yet hell it s only been two weeks and i was ordering some pretty bizzare stuff like a clear rf face sheild and a can of chain wax bastards dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington rd bedford ma kotnml kotb the road is my shepherd and i shall not stop vfr f sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other in article arturo infmx arturo informix com arturo vega writes has anyone else ever caught themselves waving at oncoming motorcycle riders while in a car i ve caught myself doing it while on my bicycle does that count dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington rd bedford ma kotnml kotb the road is my shepherd and i shall not stop vfr f sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited
rec.motorcycles	re dogs charles parr parr acs ucalgary ca wrote oh bull pucky ed they use dogs because a many people are scared shitless of them and b because of the nose and the vision and hearing without their cop partner in attendance the dog is so much meat in the hands of any human with a bad attitude and al ittle training in violent force one of the things that police dogs are used for is to take the bullet instead of the human police officer as charles said many people are scared of dogs and will panic when one goes on attack they will then turn their weapon on the dog and this allows the police officer to take control your advice is correct but a dog is still no match for a trained human in a fight a single person vs a single dog in a face to face confrontation should really be no contest the dog is no match for a human willing to fight multiple dogs is a different story bill ranck bill ranck vt edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg va
rec.motorcycles	dod pins not hi there kids and kidlets it your ol pal the kotpm keeper of the pin money i ve got good new and bad news good news i got laid er the pins will be coming to use the computer software phrase real soon now bad news right after we placed our order the company upped its minimum order for manufacturing we got in under the wire with an order of or so pins but as a result of the low number of pins we were relegated to the we ll get to it in between other runs bin as a result it seems that it may be another or weeks until your beloved geeky is guiding you along the blacktop and we thought madonnas on the dashboard were foolish hmmm now if that were madonna sitting on my dashboard that could be dangerous hell i m tough so please continue to be patient as soon as they arrive i ll post the grand announcement and rush our messiah on his way directly to your abode in the meantime if you need revised versions of the holy word of geeky please send cash or money order no cod s to ranch apocalyp er ashram geeky cyberspace place i m off to msf class hope it s not too boring my wife made me go with her michael menard
rec.motorcycles	re story lynn pacesetter com lynn e hall writes lynn pacesetter com lynn e hall writes allowed yes there is a god no open containers on the street was the signs in the bars yeah right the or so cops on hand for the couple of thousand of bikers in a block main street were not citing anyone the street was filled with empty cans at least feet deep in the gutter the crowd was raisin hell tittie shows everywhere can you say party and still we wonder why they stereotype us erc whacha mean we ifin they whom ever they are want to stereotype me as one that likes to drink beer and watch lovely ladies display their beautiful bodies i like that stereotype if you were refering stereotype to infer a negative you noticed we didn t rape pillage or burn down the town we also left mucho bucks as in money with the town me thinks the town likes us least they said so lynn hall nos bros they bein themfolk who tend to compose fair piece of the population bein the ones that regard bikers as a loud irresponsible irreverent reprobate rabble sure you didn t rape and pillage it s a relief to know that you were such gentlemen but because you were not completely out of hand you justify your lesser indescretions some pretty distorted thinking i should say oh i m sorry i just noticed that you left mucho bucks as in money nevermind my criticism i was out of line i forgot that when one leaves mucho bucks as in money their behavior is permissable perhaps even justified keep in mind that themfolks are the ones that could give a when a biker gets killed when their elected officials institute further draconian legislation helmet laws gun controls etc the ones that don t respect our rights on the roads because we do not respect theirs all the rest of the time need i continue so continue to wear your stigma as a badge but the next time you are whining about them and the effect of their values on yours remember that it was probably the behavior of self righteous wusses like myself that kept them at bay for this long enjoy erc dod
rec.motorcycles	re bmw heated grips mark bergman bergman panix com wrote to those of you who have the bmw heated handgrips what are they like during the summer yes you wiseguy i mean while they are off are they comfortable do they transmit a lot of vibration how do they compare to the stock grips to foam grips do they really make a difference during the winter i just got a k and had the heated grips installed as far as i can tell the grips look and feel the same as the standard grips they are not soft last weekend i did a mile round trip and got to a point where it was in the s and raining those heated grips were great i ve only had the bike a month and the heated grips are already one of my favorite features on the bike bill ranck bill ranck vt edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg va
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other arturo informix com arturo vega wrote maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes it keeps you in the habit of watching really carefully for bikes when you re in a cage this is a good thing has anyone else ever caught themselves waving at oncoming motorcycle riders while in a car sure it has caused my wife to conclude that i am totally insane not just partially usually i just lift the left hand off the wheel and wave thru the windshield damn near the same motion as on the bike tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	re tracing license plates of bdi cagers jeq lachman com jonathan e quist wrote in article qmgg g n sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes a traffic citation is an accusation of having committed a crime that s why they have to go through the motions of having a trial if you want one you are still innocent until proven guilty cops are not the only ones who can accuse people of committing crimes anyone who witnesses a crime can do so go to the highway patrol and explain the situation give them a description of the car and the license number and tell them the specific violation of the law which you witnessed and wish to prosecute ie search the vehicle code and have the section number handy fill out the ticket and sign it it will go through the same system any ticket a cop writes goes through if contested you will have to appear in court to prosecute your word will not carry the same weight as a cop s and indeed the advice i got from a police officer when i had my close call was that without additional impartial witnesses it would be my word vs the other driver s and that it was up to me to decide whether the time and inconvenience to me was worth the time and inconvenience to the other driver and also whether any positive effect would result beyond making me feel better my worth i did this once bdi ladycager in a town car passed me on the right on a two lane road i memorized her license plate this in the days before i carried pen and paper in my tankbag and went to the local police station cops filled out the ticket i signed it she paid it tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	re fj owners tankbag suggestions wanted bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes in article apr ncsu edu martenm chess ncsu edu mar marten writes i am looking for a new tank bag now and i wondered if you as follow fj owners could make some suggestions as to what has and has not worked for you if there is already a file on this i apologize for asking and will gladly accept any flames that are blown my way with the fj s large flat gas tank i d imagine that almost anything would work personally i m quite happy with my eclipse standard tank bag i think the only thing to watch for is the number of attachment straps most come with and some with i have a bagman strap tankbag and because the rear of the tank is so narrow the fit is not optimal mark castle rock co
rec.motorcycles	re dogs howland noc arc nasa gov curt howland writes in article ms c mrc ikkoku kan panda com mrc ikkoku kan panda com mark crispin writes i m a biker and a dog lover no wonder bikers have such a horrid reputation in dog we thrust
rec.motorcycles	re so do any xxxx i mean police officers read this stuff jrlaf sgi msd lmsc lockheed com j r laferriere wrote i was just wondering if there were any law officers that read this i have several questions i would like to ask pertaining to motorcycles and cops and please don t say get a vehicle code go to your local station or obvious things like that my questions would not be found in those places nor answered face to face with a real live in the flesh cop if your brother had a friend who had a cousin whos father was a cop etc don t bother writing in thanks um would you mind telling us what state municipality you live in there are different laws in different places you know tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	re hawk gt new seat review i too put a corbin seat on my hawk i got the solo seat which could carry a passenger for a short distance and it is better than the stock seat no longer does my voice squeak after the ride to work rich sturges h nswc carderock division w i speak for no one else and listen to the same
rec.motorcycles	re wanted advice for new cylist in article apr rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes so the question i have is how dangerous is riding it s exactly as dangerous as it looks you re hard to see and have little protection keeping out of trouble means knowing your limits keeping your machine in good shape and being able to predict and make up for every stupid move that drivers make out there we deal with it because it s fun but staying alive takes a conscious effort i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada thanks jody i can t say i ve ever seen it summed up so succinctly before i might only add two things stupid road design or poor at least and we deal with it for the fun and brotherhood we share with others who take their lives in their hads to feel the wind in their hair imho binger binger is binger hsh com is there really such a thing as a welcome to the attitude express corporate opinion if so maybe now get out my boss will let me express it
rec.motorcycles	re dogs in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes newsgroups rec motorcycles path usenet ins cwru edu lerc nasa gov lerc nasa gov news uakron edu malgudi oar net zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu destroyer cs ubc ca unixg ubc ca kakwa ucs ualberta ca acs ucalgary ca parr from parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr subject re dogs message id apr acs ucalgary ca date tue apr gmt references ms c mrc ikkoku kan panda com c pntm co cbnewsj cb att com nntp posting host acs acs ucalgary ca organization the university of calgary alberta lines in article c pntm co cbnewsj cb att com car cbnewsj cb att com charles a rogers writes what a dog weighs lb maybe at max you can t handle it you have i presume thumbs grapple with it and tear it s head off sheesh even a trained attack dog is no match for a human we have all the advantages this was a recent discussion on rec martial arts humans definitely don t have all the advantages dogs are deceptively strong and often bred for fighting of one sort or another ed dod
rec.motorcycles	re newbie yes matt dear newbie best advice is read here foe a few days this is your best source of info kinda makes me glad that i discovered r m well after i got into riding could i have possibly sounded like that otherwise eesh btw matt despite the insults you are destined to face great move on taking the msf course it will save your butt good luck erc dod
rec.motorcycles	re krypto cables was re cobra locks hi i m not sure what the other guy can t track down his post for his name was talking about when he made the claim that cobralinks are not adjustable they are there s a space between each link where the teeth of the locking head notch in thus each link is a possible locking point also and this is not applicable to hard core thieves who cart around liquid nitrogen and oxy acetylene torches the cobralinks look a lot more effective than kryptonite cable locks imho and i think the initial appearance effect is more relevant to bored joyriders nominally adept at cracking unsecured bike deterrence as long as the lock is nominally functional finally i notice that when i ride with my leathers harness boots and the cobralinks slung across like a bandolier btw i ve crashed in the rain dressed like this and the lock didn t pulverize any vertebrae cagers give me a much wider berth don t hassle me and tend to avoid any potentially inflammatory action at stoplights i love my cobralinks almost as much as i love my pre s honda dinosaur i think i have a pavlovian drool reflex i put the lock on i e on my body and i can feel the bike already shaking away my first post what did i do wrong sang dod cx p s any other cx owners out there please e mail me got questions about the weird handling on my bike the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill the campus office for information technology or the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu or
rec.motorcycles	re riceburner respect in article apr microsoft com chrispi microsoft com chris pirih writes generic bike riders actually seem to raise the hand entirely off the handlebar and wave it around so it s easy to tell when they re waving and doders are easily recognized by their own special wave pay attention and i ll tell you how to do it hold your left hand out in front of you fingers straight but apart like a vase you may also use your right hand if you have a throttle lock or are stopped bring your fingertips and thumb together touch and open back to the starting position while you are doing this move your hand slowly to the left do it gracefully and with a waving motion you are now imitating a squid propelling itself about underwater probably in search of food drink squids of the appropriate sexual orientation or other squids to go riding with lissa shoun netcom com
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion because riding a passenger doesn t really depend on the type of bike the things you want a passenger to do not do is the same ergo if he s asking advice i reasoned he doesn t have much practice period if you say he does fine i still wouldn t take the uninitiated up a road that s all switch backs and reverse center uncrowned roadway not to mention the bdcs and squids who will also be on that particular road he asked for advice and even though it wasn t what he meant i still consider it some of the best i ve read lee
rec.motorcycles	re well blow me down yuk yuk yuk ivan d reid on the apr pst wibbled in article apr news columbia edu rob castro writes when how do you decide that it is too windy to ride when even the seagulls are walking ivan reid paul scherrer institute ch ivan cvax psi ch gsx f rg wd si you porsche me pass dod when you can make no headway into the wind when you hear a dull booming noise after going down hill with the wind behind you and you re wfo be very careful during the above as all the controls will have the opposite effect nick the mach biker dod concise oxford m lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated at bnr o o npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay maidenhead the united kingdom o pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re how to act in front of traffic jerks apr gillian e runcie writes being a mere female i have often found i can t really take the big offensive line with asshole car drivers so i found a more subtle and nastly ooops i mean nasty way to get back at them if somebody cuts you up just wait till they have pulled out past you and then gently lean over and bend their aerial every time i have done that it has eventually snapped off near the base which tends to go undetected for a while and is a bummer to replace gillian dear gillian that is such a wickedly cool idea why didn t i think of it however here in canada the aerials antenna are usually near the driver or passenger areas and i would surely be seen but i ll give it a try anyway thanks for the first truely useable piece of information i have heard in a long time and you are by no means a mere female as this way at getting back takes real guts to do mike maser dod squid rating pinetree rd sidney b c can hopalonga twinfart yuka yuka excess v l j wish list tridump mucho guzler burley home thumpison or bimotamoeba work mmaser sirius uvic ca joke of the month what did the gay say to the university of victoria indian chief news rec motorcycles answer can i bum a couple bucks
rec.motorcycles	re dogs car cbnewsj cb att com charles a rogers writes what a dog weighs lb maybe at max you can t handle it you have i presume thumbs grapple with it and tear it s head off sheesh even a trained attack dog is no match for a human we have all the advantages this was a recent discussion on rec martial arts humans definitely don t have all the advantages dogs are deceptively strong and often bred for fighting of one sort or another ed dod being related to former trainers i have come to know that humans do have all the advantages well at least one anyway it is a little known fact that a dog will involuntarily regurgitate and release an object that is too large to swallow i was told that if i were ever attacked by a dog i should ball my hand in a fist and force it down the dog s throat the dog would naturally gag and release and become momentarily disoriented this commonly happens to humans when we go to a doctor and have our throats examined proof positive in the time during the dog s disorientation the next move would be to wrap an arm about the dog throat in a choke hold manner and constrict with all your might until the dog lapses into unconsciousness from lack of oxygen and halting blood flow finally run like the wind to get away from the local area should the dog get up again and be really pissed ooooooopsssss for a second there i thought i was in rec beatthelivingcrapoutofadog and not rec motorcycles till next time mike maser dod squid rating pinetree rd sidney b c can hopalonga twinfart yuka yuka excess v l j wish list tridump mucho guzler burley home thumpison or bimotamoeba work mmaser sirius uvic ca joke of the month what did the gay say to the university of victoria indian chief news rec motorcycles answer can i bum a couple bucks
rec.motorcycles	re where to put your helmet in response to jerry lotto s post about not putting your helmet on your mirror or else risk damaging the padding from the inside one of the major causes of mirror breakage is impact with the pavement laws mandating that all mirrors be protected by helmets might be in order but seriously one place to put a helmet is on a preferably clean footpeg hanging from the chin guard away from any hot pipes ed dod
rec.motorcycles	re paint jobs in the uk in article mjs zen sys uea ac uk mjs sys uea ac uk writes lisa alex com lisa rowlands writes can anyone recommend a good place for reasonably priced bike paint jobs preferably but not essentially in the london area thanks lisa rowlands try dream machine i ve seen a few examples of their work and it looks pretty good they re in the midlands though can you say expensive tony kidson pgp key by request voice morgan towers the cat has had to move now e mail in order morgan road as i ve had to take the top tony morgan demon co uk bromley off of the machine tny cix compulink co uk england br qe honda st dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	re how to buy a first bike etc in article c x vh in inform co nz dev inform co nz michael seales writes in article apr galaxy gov bc ca bclarke galaxy gov bc ca writes there have been a lot of posts lately about i wanna buy my first bike is a gsxr zx cbr fzr a good bike to learn on etc sure they are here we can buy gsxr cbr fzr the prob is that you re wrong newbie here i just got off the phone with a salesman that showed by newbieness if i remember what he said correctly gsxr no such thing cbr no its cb fzr no such thing most sport bikes don t have versions bs
rec.motorcycles	volvo attack i was privelged enough to experience my first volvo attack this weekend i was last in a line of traffic that was about vehicles long riding down rt in groton ma at the side of the road sitting off on the shoulder was the killer volvo in question no brake lights no turn signal nothing we were doing about mph and i was following the cage in front of me about sec back well as said cage passes the volvo the brain dead idiot tm behind the wheel decides that she doesn t need to wait for me to pass also and turns out perpendicular across both lanes of traffic so that she can turn around so i get on the brakes in a effort to not t bone it and the horn in an effort to wake the bdi up as she finishes the turn she looks up at me with a completely blank uncomprehending stare where can i get rocket launchers for the vfr dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington rd bedford ma kotnml kotb the road is my shepherd and i shall not stop vfr f sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering sans hands in article clarke bdrc bd com clarke bdrc bd com richard clarke writes so how do i steer when my hands aren t on the bars open budweiser in left hand camel cigarette in the right no feet allowed if i lean and the bike turns am i countersteering is countersteering like benchracing only with a taller seat so your feet aren t on the floor rick now while i wouldn t recommend doing this while moving maybe mike beaverton can complain to you awhile you might not want to countersteer if you re just sitting in the driveway sounds of rick falling off bike muttering damn coulda sworn that s how they told me in the msf course andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re bike for sale in ma usa in article apr news columbia edu scs cunixb cc columbia edu sebastian c sears writes in article apr zorro tyngsboro ma us jd zorro tyngsboro ma us jeff derienzo writes i ve recently become father of twins i don t think i can afford to keep bikes and babies both babies are staying so of the harleys is going xlhd mi hey it was my wife s bike well that was pretty uncalled for no smile is our harley manhood feeling challenged jeff derienzo so you d sell your bike and let her ride around while you have to stay home with the kids geez that s a tough choice andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	two beemer questions r gs hello folks i m very happy with my new r gs my range is miles on gallons that s mpg surprisingly the bike is a real cruiser i was expecting something rough she s a sweet backroad honey and i can go pretty much anyplace i d take my mountain bike as far as shaft effect it s more a torque effect from the crankshaft in my opinion rev it sitting still when the driveshaft is not moving and the bike twists a bit maybe i don t ride her fast enough to get a shaft effect but in my opinion a little buffeting by wind is of far greater consequence okay here are my questions any recommendations for a home made fairing i d like to keep the wind off my chest and perhaps my helmet for comfort at highway speeds mph yet don t want to a screw up the stability or b block my vision too much for trail riding anybody have luck with two piece detachible fairings i d like to make it myself out of plexiglas i run two lights the standard headlamp plus a sidelamp mounted on the crash bar the illumination s excellent that way with a full beam coming out from the level of the motor left side the lamp beam is linear so that you get a bright streak of illumination from left to right and it really picks up the periphery deer lurking etc combined with the headlamp on high you can see like day but i ve heard that bmw alternators don t crank out too much do i need to shut down the sidelamp when i m puttering around in the dirt at low rpm this is embarassing i m having trouble starting the bike first thing in the morning i invariably flood the carbs then go in and read a section of the paper and then she starts right up is this a zen thing the hayne s manual says do not under any circumstances use gasoline with alcohol additives yeah right what do you folks due to keep the engine and carbs from being eaten by ethanol and methanol any particular brands of gas that are best additives thanks b o d y i s t h e b i k e dod asphaug hindmost lpl arizona edu kawi zephyr erik asphaug bmw r gs s o u l i s t h e r i d e r
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies bradw newbridge com brad warkentin writes in article bethdc sv netcom com bethd netcom com beth dixon writes beth the one true beth dixon bethd netcom com yamaha sr excitable girl dod yamaha sr spike the garage rat fssnoc ducati ss ama ducati monza restoration project kqspt i can keep a handle on anything just this side of deranged zz top now just wait one cotton picking minute here dod rule section paragraph clearly indicates that multiple people can t lay claim to a bike in an obvious ploy to artificially increase the size of their stable silly boy you read the rest of that jibberish go back and read rule so the question of the day is is spike owned by a lady of true class and breeding my definition any woman who rides or by tom the harely head ok for the record spike is jointly owned the registration says or uhhh what does the title say beth beth brought the ad to my attention i d been half heartedly lusting after an sr for years i had successfully avioded buying it by rationalizing that i didn t need to spend the on it then beth piped up with i ll pay for half of it i was beaten i also note that you lay no claim to connie or ol sport like i said obviously a lady of discriminating taste watch it buddy both of those are fine rides beth loves riding pillion on the connie true the ol sport isn t her cup of tea she can t get it off of the side stand but she agrees that it s a very fine ride bored minds wanta know bj bradw newbridge com no sig no plan no clue dod i ll buy that i ll even loan you a quarter to buy a clue concours sophisticated lady tom dietrich cc sportster ol sport for sale dod sr spike the garage rat ama queued for an m fssnoc two jousts and a gather big fun kspt ma bell cool as a rule but sometimes e mail txd able mkt com com h lewis disclaimer com takes no responsibility for opinions preceding this
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article apr vax cit cornell edu xlyx vax cit cornell edu writes is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive mike terry virago yep i did one yesterday on my shaftie vision i should mention that i had a pillon that helped rotate the bike over the wheelie was the result of a necessarily agressive acceleration manouver through an intersection damn san antonio cagers tend to be really bad drivers however i have done one by myself it just takes a lot of pre clutch dump rev action just a passing comment johnny ennex eng utsa edu
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack in article bong kfp slac mac slac stanford edu bong slac stanford edu eric bong writes in article c y gp an cbnews cb att com nak cbnews cb att com neil a kirby wrote what worked for me on my rd was to lean towards the dog as i modulated throttle to keep my ankle just ahead of his teeth after a few seconds of warm pipe firmly wedged on his shoulder he turned his face sideways to see what was so warm and got his mouth nose muzzle burned on the pipes a bicycling technique i ve employed was to use my frame mounted tire pump to fend off dog attacks one of my brothers had spent a lot of time practicing bizzare tricks on his megabuck micromass bike he said he once repelled a dog attack by picking up the rear of the bike and smacking the dog in the side of the head with the rear wheel the dog had no idea what hit him and he fled quite rapidly then again he could jump garbage cans without a ramp so i don t think i d care to try this one on a motorcycle the telephone worked much better than the tire pump that s almost unfair i ve never seen a dog that could use a phone blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	re dogs apr egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher writes in article adobe com cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes writes sheesh even a trained attack dog is no match for a human we have all the advantages i agree with this me too for chihuahua s the police and the military don t train dobermans and shephards and use them as weapons because they are so easy for the average joe to defeat barehanded you may have opposing thumbs but the dog has teeth so effective some of yours are named for him he has ir vision better hearing and better smell than you do and most likely faster reflexes you re on a motorcycle he s on paws roll on and blow him off he doesn t even have net access ed green c mon ed a all things have their weak areas b what s ir idiot response dogs have more rods or cones i m not sure which than humans and this allows their eyes to collect more light in lower light conditions consequently their colour vision is almost non existant i mean if dogs had built in infra red vision the armed forces would be strapping them to missiles instead of paying a quarter million for ir guidance capabilities c my dog has net access mike maser dod squid rating pinetree rd sidney b c can hopalonga twinfart yuka yuka excess v l j wish list tridump mucho guzler burley home thumpison or bimotamoeba work mmaser sirius uvic ca joke of the month what did the gay say to the university of victoria indian chief news rec motorcycles answer can i bum a couple bucks
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other in article mdennie beryllium mdennie xerox com matt dennie writes in apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes ever notice little kid wave more than other bikers the reactions of little boys seems to be the most enthusiastic to a wave and also good to see i always wave when i see a kid that has at least noticed my bike i figure it helps the future of the sport don t forget little girls my not quite year old daughter now excitedly points and says motorcycle every time she sees one go past i ve done my work of course it helps that one of her books shows sir topham hatt in a chaffeured side car rig i have to admit that i usually try to do so without the parental figure noticing i m afraid that the kid will get yelled at for associatign with anti societal types like us can you think of a better way to convince the kid that someday i ll ride one of those things is it a genetic thing with little boys or what even three and four year old boys seem magnetically attracted to motorcycles of virtaully any sort often to the dismay of thier mothers no it s a genetic thing with little humans just don t let them touch hot pipes jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf cl k gleep naperville il there s nothing quite like the pitter patter of little feet followed by the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	re so do any xxxx i mean police officers read this stuff in article ltgnt innfpq earth cs utexas edu mcguire cs utexas edu tommy marcus mcguire writes in article apr dsd es com bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes in article ltdv ainn hb earth cs utexas edu mcguire cs utexas edu tommy marcus mcguire writes hey what the hell do you mean by that you suck i have a god given right to express opinions carry a gun and to not wear a helmet goddamn it everything you stand for is stupid i d give it an on a scale of analysis and hints deleted aw c mon the serious overreaction ought to be worth a couple of points not to mention the bit condemning everthing the flamee might ever say the non sequitur about guns and helmets is just the proper flourish nope flames should be interesting around here guns helmets are the wallpaper i personally am of the opinion that there are two types of good flames the first does trade quality in the sense you mention for heat this has a certain surprise value and if done correctly which i contend was done above is reasonably entertaining not everyone in rec motoland is so easily amused blaine as an elder has seen the superflamers at their peaks or depths if you prefer with that sort of incendiary backdrop awarding your faltering bic a was the purest act of charity while it is true that the flame i posted does not mention anyone s habitual velocity friends dinner or entertainment it says what it needs to with the appropriate flair and it is short the weakness of this type of flame is actually that it can easily be taken too far at which point it becomes trite and boring unless of course your audience has only seen several thousand similarly uninspiring attempts in this arena in that case the trite boring threshold tends to drift away from where you first set it as yours will eventually or not the other type of flame which you seem to be glorifying above blah blah blah in summary blaine your score for that flame is incorrect while it may be the wunder flame the weaknesses you point out are not necessarily weaknesses and your suggested corrections are not always useful nor applicable until you can yank the flame out of blaine s internet port before he can io close it you are in no position to lecture him grasshopper you also probably couldn t outrun a tennis ball with a flatulent dog stapled to your posterior and i ll bet you and your motorcycle lean to the outside while turning the same goes for anyone who looks like you too oh please yawn you re slipping further down the scale with each successive attempt it s so embarrassing to watch say you re not from waco are you chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	re a kinder gentler bmw mailing list joe rider cactus org joe senner writes i know there s already a bmw mailing list but since it s an r bike only list and limited to the r r bikes as well i believe the list as chartered is geared toward r r gs pd st riders emphasizing the off road bikes but there are numerous people on the list with other bmw twins as well as well as the usual contingent of aspirants most all boxer talk is welcome the main list has about subscribers there is also a digest version which has about we run about to messges to day mostly technical with little chatter and no flames subscriptions can be had via e mail in the text of a message send the command subscribe to bmw gs request halfdome sf ca us for the main list and bmw gs digest request haldfome sf ca us for the digest version your from address will be used to determine where you will receive the mail it would be a shame to split boxer riders between different lists unless of course the existing list failed to meet the readers needs bob pasker rbp netcom com
rec.motorcycles	re uh der whassa deltabox in c t da l news dtc hp com jjb dtc hp com jim brewer writes in article c kxal izc ccu umanitoba ca klinger ccu umanitoba ca jorg klinger writes i beleive it s called the dentabox frame nothing some putty and paint won t fix this from someone riding a gsxr gutsy i was referring to their propensity to dent during a spill prespill they are of course a work of art jorg klinger gsxr if you only new who arch eng services lost horizons cr i think i am umanitoba man ca the embalmer it anonymous squidonk
rec.motorcycles	re st ride frank marvin contex com frank perdicaro writes well i was wrong as i sat on the st both feet down all i could think was big then i put one foot up heavy came to mind very quickly with cindy on the back was she on the back hard to tell with seat three times as large as a hawk seat the bike seemed nearly out of control just idling on the side of the road it is heavy the is mid s dry that is the one major drawback of the st by rpm in second gear all the weight seemed to dissappear even can you say tourque monster the test drive sold me on the bike lot s of bite anywhere above in any gear on bike with miles on the odometer slippery new tires and pads that did you trythe abs tcs version cindy has no difficulty with speed rd gear th gear purring along in top gear this thing has less low rpm grunt that my hawk lane changes were a new experience a big heft is required to move this thing responds well though no wallowing or complaint behind the fairing it was fairly quiet but the helmet buffeting was after market fairing windshield for raises the bubble inches above most heads but hurts the looks of the bike non trivial top gear car passing at mph was nearly effortless smooth smooth smooth not sure what the v sound reminds me of but it is pleasant this is the essence of the bike move the throttle and itr accelerates any gear anywhere anytime i frequently find myself at the dod min during a casual passing maneuver the jump on to caused me to be less than impressed with the brakes its a down hill reversing camber twice reversing radius decreasing radius turn a real squeeze is needed on the front binder this is a function of the weight you have to be aggresive with the brake squeze actually as tested by cycle world and an expert rider the st stopped faster then the comparable models from bmw and yamaha even with the extra weight and gas the section of we were on was tight but too urban the st works ok in this section but it shows its weight we went by the clam shack you must countersteer the st for every turn and movement short of the classic pothole wiggle just forget ever leaning into a turn again it must be countersteered into every turn and then responds nicely about half way through the onramp i yanked cindy s wrist our singal for hold on tight head check left time to find redline second gear gives a good shove third too fourth sees dod speed with a short shift into top on the way to we saw no cops and very light traffic did not cross into dod zone because the bike was too new well now it had miles on it so it was ok tried some high effort lane changes some wide sweeping turns time to wick it up i went until the buffeting was threating to pull us off the seat and stayed there when i was comfortable with the wind and the steering i looked down to find an indicated mph not bad for up touring faster then i ve ever gone i d hate to buy this bike after your short break in period to thread the st through the cars to the edge of the concrete pad out front heavy it took way too much effort for cindy and i to put the thing on the center stand i am sure that if i used the side stand the st would have been on its side within a minute not true the side stand is well designed for the weight and will hold the bike nicely on dirt i am able to easily get the bike up on the center stand just step down on the stand instead of pulling up on the bike my demo opinion heavy put it on a diet smooth comfortable hardly notices the dod speed i d buy on for about less than list just like it is too much for the bike as it is keep looking the left overs if available are going for i love mine and i haven t found a better value then the st for remember you get years unlimited mileage warranty
rec.motorcycles	re so do any xxxx i mean police officers read this stuff in article c u dl a v athena cs uga edu ahatcher athena cs uga edu allan hatcher writes well here goes after lurking for a long time i ll announce myself yes i m the enemy the enemy that also happens to ride an arrest me red vfr i have a feeling that you are not the enemy there are without a doubt dickhead cops but there are at least as many dickhead bikers even here you know who you are i will certainly give you the same benefit of the doubt as any other biker here welcome i think i can speak for the entire dod in this hey guys free ride in georgia dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com i m getting tired of concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you up dave rz ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering sans hands in article apr cs cornell edu karr cs cornell edu david karr writes in article gbnvgw quantum qnx com dagibbs quantum qnx com david gibbs writes yes even when steering no hands you do something quite similar to countersteering basically to turn left you to a quick wiggle of the bike to the right first causing a counteracting lean to occur to the left this sounds suspiciously like black magic to me if by quick wiggle to the right you mean that the handlebars turn toward the right before turning to the left what is the input to the steering mechanism that makes this happen in the absence of the old shove shove well as many a bored bike tourer can tell you the way to steer sans hans is to push your body off to the side you want to lean say you want to turn left you push your body off to the left to do this you have to push against something and the only thing to push against is the ground through the bike well the apple guy wozniak or was that churchill says that the ground will push you right back so you pushed yourself off to the left by pushing on the ground to the right and the ground pushed back toward the left well that push is on both wheels the rear wheel doesn t care unless you have serious bearing problems except of course on the spagthorpe dragonfly which had the revolutionary countersteering contra shaft drive rear end but the front wheel has trail if the ground pushes the front wheel toward the left at the contact patch the trail will cause the wheel to turn to the right hey there we are no hands counter steering dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com i m getting tired of concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you up dave rz ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon
rec.motorcycles	re a kinder gentler bmw mailing list sorry had to take out tx motorcycles because my news server rejected it hesh bob pasker rbp netcom com wrote it would be a shame to split boxer riders between different lists unless of course the existing list failed to meet the readers needs you presumed you needed to split out a gs list by implication of your split a plain ol bmw list wouldn t meet the gs riders needs for the sake of not forcing the split issue how about changing the charter and renaming your list from bmw gs to just bmw would that make everybody happy i think you d get better participation this way and joe wouldn t have to burden his hesh
rec.motorcycles	re squids and dealers kevin l stell kstell cbnewsl cb att com wrote squids i felt embarassed at this point to be a motorcyclist i felt the eyes of those in cages witnessing this display then glancing over to the dealers lot and damning all those on two wheels needless to say my friend felt a little uncomfortable and we left did you express your embarrassment to the owner i don t blame you for being embarrassed but i would have let my feeling be known that the behaviour of their sales staff and apparent enjoyment of such behaviour just cost them a sale and all further sales i will now turn off my frustration and go ride peacefully to clear my anger i only hope that the cop who is following me home has an open mind and doesn t associate me with them sound good enjoy btw i can t afford a new bike who can merf
rec.motorcycles	re death of a stroke why did it die zebee johnstone zebee wattle itd adelaide edu au wrote now for those who have read this far why did it rev at idle like that is water in the fuel an acceptable reaason or were they having me on sound like the pilot circuit was say lean clogged i don t think water would cause a problem like this but apparently the oil pump is doing its job and there was plenty of oil why did it seize see above were you by chance coasting when it stuck on a two stroke you only have substantial lubrication when you are giving the bike gas if it was lean on the pilot that s why it stuck oh btw the motor had been rebuilt just before i left adelaide so had done about miles when it blew it was rebuilt because it had been seized at some time before we got it and it looked like that seizure had happened at low mileage because there were still hone marks in the bore the rebuild we did consisted of a total tear down new piston rings small end bearing and new gearbox bearings big end and rod judged ok any ideas folks you mentioned an aftermarket carb i deleted the text looks like to me that s where your problem is zebee johnstone dod you don t own an italian motorcycle o m merfman
rec.motorcycles	re well blow me down yuk yuk yuk i have never experienced wind so severe it physically precluded operation of a motorcycle it s more a matter of deciding whether the aggravation is more trouble than it s worth this of course depends entirely on your own particular circumstances and personal disposition and skill if you haven t done it before it can be dangerous it takes some getting used to read ed s list brad thone systems consultant systems service enterprises st louis mo c bt wuvmd wustl edu c bt wuvmd bitnet
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer wrote randy megatek com randy davis writes speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes what does dwi stand for i thought it was dui for driving under influence so here what does w stand for driving while intoxicated actually i beleive dwi normally means driving while impaired rather than intoxicated at least it does in the states i ve lived in this was changed here in louisiana when a girl went to court and won her case by claiming to be stoned on pot not intoxicated on liquor one can be imparied without necessarily being impaired by liquor drugs not enough sleep being a total moron all can impair someone etc i m surprised this got her off the hook perhaps dwi in lousiana is confined to liquor lets just say it is dui here now ok it varies from state to state it has to do with operating a vehicle while there is greater than a given percentage of alcohol in your bloodstream can we drop this now and get back to asking ed green to getabike tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	re traffic morons ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau wrote nmm from nielsmm imv aau dk niels mikkel michelsen nmm subject how to act in front of traffic jerks nmm the other day it was raining cats and dogs therefor i was going only to nmm the speed limit on nothing more on my bike this guy in his bmw was nmm driving meters behind me for meters and at the next red light i nmm calmly put the bike on its leg walked back to this car he rolled down the nmm window and i told him he was a total idiot and the reason why nmm did i do the right thing nmm yours truly nmm niels mikkel well sounds great to me when i have a real bdi cager tailgating me i ve found that an effective strategy is to flash my brake light by pumping the pedal you will obviously need a bit of free play in your brake pedal to do this it seems that even the most brain dead idiot can usually discern that a flashing red light directly in front of him her it may mean that something is wrong sometimes yes sometimes no bdi cagers usually move back then hyperagressive assholes just move closer something about testosterone stimulated behavior i think it s kinda like waving a red flag at a bull all in all if you can t move over and let the jerk by it s better than nothing tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	re type spesifications cb vfr gt etc lets not forget st sports touring honda
rec.motorcycles	re windy days robert d castro rdc cunixf cc columbia edu writes when how do you decide that it is too windy to ride if you get blown over riding your bike down your drive at home then it s too windy to ride d p s check nearby trees for wind strength and see how badly they are being affected by the wind alan alan duncan dept of computer science ducati ss edinburgh university scotland s s
rec.motorcycles	moa members another letter to read in light of the last letter i posted from jeff brody concering the crap that is going on in the moa which some folks took not as dissemination of information that i received but as my own bad mouthing i thought that i would post this one which came to me yesterday this is from board member robert higdon to moa pres chich morse this is not my words o k guys april re cecil king s nominating statement dear chick we have a very serious problem with the election for president of the moa this year cecil king s nominating statement as it appeared in the owners news is words nearly twice as many as that is permitted by the by laws in pertinent part the rules state each candidate s biography and position statement shall be limited to a combined total of no more than words the nominating committe shall cut afafter the th word any biography and position statement exceeding this length obviously the nominationg committe was not up to the task had cecil s statement been cut as required it would have concluded approximately with the word undertiding sic in the second paragraph after the commencement of his position statement as a result cecil has obtained what i view as a grossly unfair advantage over the other candidates for president this does not just taint the election for that office it makes a mockery of the process i would appreciate your advising the board immediately what steps you intend to take to rectify this caricature of a fair election parenthetically in your private correspondence with others i would be most appreciative that when tou call me an asshole you remind the letter s recipient that the re publication of such a comment is almost guaranteed to have woeful consequences with kind regards i remain robert higdon o k moa ers you read it think for yourself i trust you do know who cecil king is and that he was editor befor don douglass and he is a pres candidate i let you draw your own conclusions regards craig vechorik bmw moa ambassador bmw vintage bulletin tech editor dod real bmw s have two wheels politically correct statement
rec.motorcycles	insuring a cbr f hey now i m having the roughest time getting a company to cover my new bike here are some details about her and me i m single riding with a clean record a homeowner a new rider accoring to most companies not a member of msf or ama yet she s a cbr f got miles got temp plates still one screamin bitch of a ride can you get me some ideas we can take them to private email to lower the noise on the net mrr po cwru edu is a good mail address i need to hear something soon so i can keep her on the road thanks in advance mark well weathered leather hot metal and oil the scented country air sunlight on chrome the blur of the landscape every nerve aware red barchetta straining the limits of machine and man
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax and mail order in article apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes i bought it i tried it it is truly the miracle spooge my chain is lubed my wheel is clean after km i d try it on the vfr but goddamn competition accessories hasn t mailed my order yet hell it s only been two weeks and i was ordering some pretty bizzare stuff like a clear rf face sheild and a can of chain wax bastards for what it s worth i got my can in three days from chaparral that s ups ground from ca to ut ymmv the stuff seems to work and it doesn t attract grundge like pj blue does i gave it the acid test a full day s worth of breaking in the quadracer s new paddle tires down at the sand dunes if there s anything wet stickey it will be coated with sand at the end of the day but the chain looked pretty clean as far as mail order goes if chaparral has it in stock and they can tell you if it s in stock or about how long it will take to back order it if it s not i usually get it in three days competition accessories always seems to take a week or two to deliver motorcycle accessory warehouse also takes a week or two and after trying to buy some boots from them last week i don t think they actually stock anything maw was about cheaper than chaparral on alpinestars tech boots but on monday i was hoping to get them by the end of the week so i asked maw a completely unreasonable question do you have them in stock the conversation went something like this i need to know if you have some boots in stock do you want to pay with visa or mastercard i want to know if you have them in stock well the computer doesn t show anything i d have to call the distributer to find out if we have them so do you have them or not don t you understand what i m saying i have to call our distributer to find out if we have them in stock or not uh right so can you do it yea call me back in an hour and ask for phil so an hour later phil isn t there but mike says he ll check and call him back in half an hour half an hour later mike isn t there either but he left a note that says they ll have them by the end of the month weeks away screw it the bucks isn t worth the hassle i called chaparral and asked if they had them in stock ooh alpinestars probably not they are hard to keep in stock but i ll check what size size let s see yes size in blue white gray white black i ll take the blacks this was about noon on monday they arrived thursday morning once again three days via ups ground i like chaparral i m not completely down on maw they often have lower prices but be prepared to wait oh and if anyone s in the market for sand tires and other atv stuff scorcher seems like a good outfit friendly fast had the tires i wanted in stock and were cheaper than chaparral too blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	re your opinion and what it means to me in article apr bnr ca mbeaving bnr ca writes so take you own advice and wuit you whining about flames no brains and he can t spell either edu i hope you re not a student at duke you would be wasting your tuition the beav mike beavington dod v sabre mbeaving bnr ca my employer has no idea what i m talking about ooooooh complaining about my spelling i m so hurt no i m not a student i m an alumnus and an employee so i can get my money back from these grubs bnr huh i hope you re not a permanent they d be wasting benefits on you pthptptphhph andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re daytona in article rtaraz apr bigwpi wpi edu rtaraz bigwpi wpi edu ramin taraz writes well i watched the daytona race on tnn boy for the people who saw it was the yamaha a lot faster than the kawi or what on the last stretch the yami took of and left the kawi in the dust i am a kawi rider and am totaly disappointed in the kawi it wasn t that the lawson s v h owo was faster if you watch the tape again russell had major backmarker problems before getting onto the banking it doesn t matter what bike you have if you lose your drive your hosed the two bikes are almost identically fast check out the qualifying times
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion in article mjs zen sys uea ac uk mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes if i m riding i would far sooner have the pillion hanging on to the bike rather than me because i find that their weight can cause me to move and that can upset the balance of the bike most of the pillions i see over here hold the grabrail the really good ones don t hang on to anything unless violent acceleration is taking place hmmmmn don t you ride with your sweetheart tuba irwin i honk therefore i am computrac richardson tx irwin cmptrc lonestar org dod r
rec.motorcycles	re two beemer questions r gs in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu asphaug lpl arizona edu erik asphaug x writes hello folks i m very happy with my new r gs my range is miles on gallons that s mpg surprisingly the bike is a real cruiser i was expecting something rough she s a sweet backroad honey and i can go pretty much anyplace i d take my mountain bike as far as shaft effect it s more a torque effect from the crankshaft in my opinion rev it sitting still when the driveshaft is not moving and the bike twists a bit maybe i don t ride her fast enough to get a shaft effect but in my opinion not to start another shaft effect discussion but the twist you feel when revving sitting still is due to the larger fly wheels that the bmw r bikes maybe k s too dunno use if you whack the throttle at stop lights it ll really rock the bike over to the right snip snip i run two lights the standard headlamp plus a sidelamp mounted on the crash bar the illumination s excellent that way with a full beam coming out from the level of the motor left side the lamp beam is linear so that you get a bright streak of illumination from left to right and it really picks up the periphery deer lurking etc combined with the headlamp on high you can see like day but i ve heard that bmw alternators don t crank out too much do i need to shut down the sidelamp when i m puttering around in the dirt at low rpm please post if you come to any conclusion on this i am thinking of putting a light on each cylinder guard on my r s and was wondering whether i was going to have to switch lights off every time i was under rpm kawi zephyr erik asphaug this is where i wanna sit and buy you a drink someday temple of the dog sea bass sears scs cunixb cc columbia edu dod stanley id yamaha xs f bmw r s toyota runner nyc ny
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax in article r tm itu news ysu edu ak yfn ysu edu writes in a previous article txd esd com com tom dietrich says parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes i bought it i tried it it is truly the miracle spooge my chain is lubed my wheel is clean after km i too have seen the miracle of maxima chain wax not only does it lube and stay where it s supposed to but i swear i can ride faster now yes not only does it lube your chain it makes you a better rider and more attractive to members of the opposing sex and smarter and works really well on my bike too tony tony kidson pgp key by request voice morgan towers the cat has had to move now e mail in order morgan road as i ve had to take the top tony morgan demon co uk bromley off of the machine tny cix compulink co uk england br qe honda st dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack in article apr dsd es com bgardner bambam es com blaine gardner writes in article bong kfp slac mac slac stanford edu bong slac stanford edu eric bong writes in article c y gp an cbnews cb att com nak cbnews cb att com neil a kirby wrote a bicycling technique i ve employed was to use my frame mounted tire pump to fend off dog attacks i have a bayonet in the factory scabbard from a swedish mouser mounted to the handlebars of my zuki that blade and my long arms do quite well thank you dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines hey where did they go you don t think naahh
rec.motorcycles	re why i wanted police officers to answer my posting in article csundh ursa csundh ursa calvin edu charles sundheim writes viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes and copped heh an attitude when he was stopped speaking as a guy who recieved a verbal warning for mph in a i just have to laugh in shreveport back when i was riding the purple water buffalo i jumped an intersection in front of a cop who was waiting for the light the side of the street he was on was hidden buy a building on the corner and i didn t see him till i was airborne in the middle of the intersection i was parked had my helment off and my liscence out before he turned the corner he chewed my ass out and let me go i will be the first to admit it was a very squidly thing to do jumping the intersection like that the cop should have nailed me i find that if you are polite respectfull and honest they will normaly let you get away with a lot of stuff p s the shock mounts folded up the next day i guess i deserved that dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines hey where did they go you don t think naahh
rec.motorcycles	re are other riders welcome to join group in article apr pacbell com jscosta srv pacbell com jon costa writes when riding in a group generally speaking do most people mind when another rider tags along i had the distinct feeling i may not have been welcome when i tagged along with a group last weekend yer welcome to ride with me and my friends any time just introduce your self at the earliest opportunity and say mind if i rid with you guys dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines hey where did they go you don t think naahh
rec.motorcycles	re bmw heated grips bergman panix com mark bergman writes to those of you who have the bmw heated handgrips are they comfortable do they transmit a lot of vibration how do they compare to the stock grips to foam grips i don t have the grips but have looked into getting them it s my understanding that the grips themselves are the standard european style grips now coming standard on the bikes k rs k lt etc it s also my understanding that the heater resides inside the bar itself so if anything i would suspect it would reduce vibration by providing more bar end mass i don t see why they wouldn t work with the old style foam grips aside from the fact that it might cause the foam to deteriorate or something hard to belive considering they do fine in the degree texas summers course i don t actually have them so you can save your flames joe senner joe rider cactus org bmw mailing list bmw rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org
rec.motorcycles	re re windy days in article c xuqm dxu dcs ed ac uk amd dcs ed ac uk alan duncan writes robert d castro rdc cunixf cc columbia edu writes when how do you decide that it is too windy to ride handlebar mounted windshields on windy days are no fun at all it has been windy as hell down here for a week or so and it plays hell with the steering oh i still ride i just bitch a lot about it dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines hey where did they go you don t think naahh
rec.motorcycles	re it ain t for me in article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes i am confused like that s a surprise someone asked me for a copy of the faq via e mail as i am not the kotfaq i was wondering what the proper responce is you should post his her email request with proper attributes of course to the newsgroup the request then becomes a matter of rec moto public record and warrants the ceremonial gang faqing glad to help ride safe cliff weston dod seca ii tem this bike is in excellent condition i ve done all the work on it myself glen crash stone
rec.motorcycles	re mail order response time i have ordered many times from competition accesories and ussually get day delivery once they had to backorder something but they sent me a card to say it would be two weeks came in days or so always be satisfied with ca and in life rich sturges h nswc carderock division w i speak for no one else and listen to the same
rec.motorcycles	re bmw heated grips in article rider uucp joe rider cactus org joe senner writes bergman panix com mark bergman writes to those of you who have the bmw heated handgrips are they comfortable do they transmit a lot of vibration how do they compare to the stock grips to foam grips i don t have the grips but have looked into getting them it s my understanding that the grips themselves are the standard european style grips now coming standard on the bikes k rs k lt etc it s also my understanding that the heater resides inside the bar itself so if anything i would suspect it would reduce vibration by providing more bar end mass i don t see why they wouldn t work with the old style foam grips aside from the fact that it might cause the foam to deteriorate or something hard to belive considering they do fine in the degree texas summers someone once sold heated motorcycle grips via mail order the were aftermarket replacement grips that had the heating elements mlded into the grip itself wires ran outside of the bars from the grips to a switch and finaly the battery cycle magazine tested them years ago and liked them dunno if they are still made might check with the snowmobile racers dod technician dr speed not student umop apisdn
rec.motorcycles	re well blow me down yuk yuk yuk a long time back months i think a similar question was asked a suggestion in addition to ed s list was to put your windward knee out away from the bike i tried it and it seems to help actually brad thone systems consultant systems service enterprises st louis mo c bt wuvmd wustl edu c bt wuvmd bitnet
rec.motorcycles	re the best of times the worst of times in article r nujinncti gap caltech edu ridgway cco caltech edu alex ridgway writes paulb harley tti com paul blumstein writes my problem turned out to be a screw unscrewed inside my mikuni hs carb i keep hearing that one should keep all of the screws tight on a bike but i never thought that i had to do that on the screws inside of a carb at least it was roadside fixable and i was on my way in hardly any time gee i always figured that it was the loose screws on in the rider that were most likely to cause any problems did you check for that at the same time that is very true however screws have been loose on this rider for quite some time so they had been taken into account russian roulette is fun out of times paul blumstein paulb harley tti com dod abate ama hog doh kd laa marc arrl platypus qrp arpci naswa lwca rcma cala transaction technology inc santa monica ca
rec.motorcycles	re help me adjust my tappits in article jcn lactose rice edu jcn rice edu writes and speaking of shims why would the clearance of the valves get smaller i e need the use of a thinner shim valve seat wear tony tony kidson pgp key by request voice morgan towers the cat has had to move now e mail in order morgan road as i ve had to take the top tony morgan demon co uk bromley off of the machine tny cix compulink co uk england br qe honda st dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	re fj owners tankbag suggestions wanted in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu mwallace nyx cs du edu mark wallace writes bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes in article apr ncsu edu martenm chess ncsu edu mar marten writes i am looking for a new tank bag now and i wondered if you as follow fj owners could make some suggestions as to what has and has with the fj s large flat gas tank i d imagine that almost anything would work personally i m quite happy with my eclipse standard tank bag i think the only thing to watch for is the number of attachment straps most come with and some with i have a bagman strap tankbag and because the rear of the tank is so narrow the fit is not optimal good point i d overlooked that the eclipse has a point mount at the rear and at the front and it s very stable on the fj i have seen some with harnesses that mount to the sides of the tank and that would be a real problem on the fj blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion in article mjs zen sys uea ac uk mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes lemay netcom com laura lemay writes lotsa stuff deleted switch your hands to the guardrail to stretch your shoulders but be sure and squeeze your thighs while you re doing it so your rider knows you re still there the guard rail isn t as safe as holding onto your rider hmmmm why does everyone on that side of the pond seem to want pillions to hang on to the rider rather than the grabrail because i m a guy and most of my pillions are female also the other reasons like having an idea where you passengers weight is it being a more comfortable position for the passenger and it being a more stable configuration all come into it as well holding the grab rail is a great idea only for braking when you don t want the pillion to slide forward into you otherwise i don t find it works well david dagibbs qnx com
rec.motorcycles	re story respect in article apr pacesetter com lynn pacesetter com lynn e hall writes i just got back from the th annual southern california harley dealers association run to the colorado river city of lauglin nevada why is it that some people can t enjoy themselves without being assholes if you want to be treated with respect you need to treat others their property and their towns with respect several years ago i was at the annual fly in of the experimental aircraft association eaa near oshkosh wisconsin although approximately people were in attendance there was not a piece of litter anywhere everyone was considerate enough to place their trash where it belonged there s no problem in having fun raising hell etc but consideration and respect for others is critical we need to work with each other not against nudity fine loud noise fine party all night fine but at the right place and time please let s not trample over other s rights and then bitch because they don t treat us like gods michael menard you know i wasn t even going to respond to this typical anti party attitude message trash was everywhere reason not enough dipsy dumpsters for the massive crowd oatman wasn t prepared for the vast number of people that showed up btw michael oatman is the right place time it s called a run maybe you didn t read my comment that they loved us and i m talking about the merchants and townspeople the merchants that didn t want us their shops were closed maybe i should have mentioned that when i left the trash was being picked up aluminum sells by a crew assigned to the task i think the bottom line here is do they want us back they do this action that went on at oatman is typical on a predominatly harley run it s innocent fun so since i enjoy typical harley fun at runs in your eyes that makes me an asshole i ve already admitted i m an asshole many times on the net all my friends are assholes too lyrics to a new song so you want a dime to call someone that cares it appears we have a difference of opinion maybe you should look at the big picture before you pass judgement on others th annual that should tell you something lynn hall nos bros
rec.motorcycles	re dogs in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes in article c pntm co cbnewsj cb att com car cbnewsj cb att com charles a rogers writes this tactic depends for its effectiveness on the dog s conformance to a psychological norm that may not actually apply to a particular dog i ve tried it with some success before but it won t work on a charlie manson dog or one that s really really stupid a large irish setter taught me this in my yard apparently his territory one day i m sure he was playing a game with me the game was probably kill the very angry neighbor before he can dispense the terrible punishment what a dog weighs lb maybe at max you can t handle it you have i presume thumbs grapple with it and tear it s head off sheesh even a trained attack dog is no match for a human we have all the advantages look if you are worried about being attacked by a dog just carry some spot remover with you russian roulette is fun out of times paul blumstein paulb harley tti com dod abate ama hog doh kd laa marc arrl platypus qrp arpci naswa lwca rcma cala transaction technology inc santa monica ca
rec.motorcycles	re your opinion and what it means to me in article apr rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes in my view drunk driving should carry a mandatory prison sentence it is one of the traffic offenses which is not a public funds issue but a genuine safety issue so if you bring up the subject on rec moto admitting having been caught dwi and looking for sympathy over the consequences don t expect people to respond with warm wishes dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com i m getting tired of concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you up dave rz ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon by not being able to drive for a year it was close enough to jail and btw where the hell did i ask for sympathy i asked what to do about insurance not about my life fwiw if everyone was honest on this group i d others besides me that read this have had a dwi too andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re a kinder gentler bmw mailing list rbp netcom com bob pasker writes it would be a shame to split boxer riders between different lists unless of course the existing list failed to meet the readers needs nowhere did i see you mention k bikes which being made by bmw are welcome on my list in fact you go out of your way to say most all boxer talk is welcome your list appears to cater to boxers that s great my list caters to bmw s without any restrictions like you have considering that the subscription count went to within hours of my initial post about the list which was made around pm just before i went to bed i d say that there is a need for a bmw list as opposed to just a gs boxer list my motivation for setting up the bmw list came from an earlier post of yours announcing your boxer list it didn t fit my needs ok we ve pissed on each other s list let s get back to the regular net noise and read our respective lists joe senner joe rider cactus org bmw mailing list bmw rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org
rec.motorcycles	re bonding with a caged cop akelley oracle uucp alyn kelley writes waving policeman happy policeman nice policeman has anyone else experienced this phenomenon or am i somehow the only one to have been blessed with a cop s good mood insert mild sarcasm alyn dod seca ii well not me however i wouldn t trade all the times i ve h h h h a close friend has been pulled over cussed and shouted at and finally let off with a verbal warning in exchange for a few waves smiles if you like but i m serious later art yes sir no sir sorry sir thank you sir arturo informix com
rec.motorcycles	re moa members another letter to read has anyone noticed that all this happened since chris perez was gifted with a membership anyone for rec motorcycles beemer club whiner i know this might get confused with k whiners but maybe there s a connection blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	re a kinder gentler bmw mailing list hesh cup hp com chris steinbroner writes sorry had to take out tx motorcycles because my news server rejected it hesh bob pasker rbp netcom com wrote it would be a shame to split boxer riders between different lists unless of course the existing list failed to meet the readers needs you presumed you needed to split out a gs list by implication of your split a plain ol bmw list wouldn t meet the gs riders needs good point the list actually started out as an extension of my gs v fj shootout list which is why it got that name since inception however other boxer interested folks have joined and the conversation has not always been geared to gs pd st specific topics for the sake of not forcing the split issue how about changing the charter and renaming your list from bmw gs to just bmw would that make everybody happy when i raised the to expand or not to expand that is the question question on the list itself there were mixed feelings the list has always been open to anyone with a non bouncing from line and there has been general agreement that only boxer related stuff is appropriate almost all of the subscribers own r r gs st pd bikes although some r rt and rs owners are also on it at this point my main interest for the list is to preserve the peace and comraderie while at the same time providing as wide access as possible the list is fairly technical with how do i do this what kind of that should i get kinds of questions there has yet to be any non bmw bashing k bike bashing or any bmw mfg d after is a piece of shit bashing such posts are by consent of the governed proscribed if the simple name change would make a significant difference to the net boxer owners then i am not going to stand in the way of progress so hesh let me turn the question around have you or has anyone else not joined the list because you felt your boxer was excluded bob pasker rbp netcom com
rec.motorcycles	re dogs vs bikes in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes in article c r x k m ccu umanitoba ca klinger ccu umanitoba ca jorg klinger writes i have a large ol farting dog and have made a real effort at trying to train him but he still just flatulates at will don t feed it so much seriously first i would like to break him of this and then i ll worry about his chasing things if you can t you ve obviously waited too long or are not putting much effort into it my lb dog not always used to fart all the time by making her notice it of course the smell doesn t bother her and thence kicking her outside somewhat literally she came to realize that she shoudln t do it at least not around me sort of like that scene in in the minister s study when the secretary lets one fly and the startled dog runs from the room the minister explains every time mrs soandso breaks wind we beat the dog jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf cl k gleep naperville il there s nothing quite like the pitter patter of little feet followed by the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	re looking for movies w bikes in article apr virginia edu cds k virginia edu christopher douglas saady writes there s also billy jack the wild one smokey and the bandit where jerry reed runs his truck over motorcycle gangs bikes and a video tape documentary on the hell s angels i found in a rental store once don t forget robert blake in electra glide in blue where else do you get to see a full dress harley playing with dirt bikes and if you re going to count smokey and the bandit then you darn well better include pee wee s big adventure jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf cl k gleep naperville il there s nothing quite like the pitter patter of little feet followed by the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax in a previous article txd esd com com tom dietrich says parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes i bought it i tried it it is truly the miracle spooge my chain is lubed my wheel is clean after km i too have seen the miracle of maxima chain wax not only does it lube and stay where it s supposed to but i swear i can ride faster now yes not only does it lube your chain it makes you a better rider and more attractive to members of the opposing sex and smarter and dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	re what is a squid was re riceburner respect in a previous article serafin epcot spdc ti com mike serafin says a poser squid was the guy i saw yesterday on my way home similar attire as above sans jacket it is april in texas ya know but he is riding down the amazing and i thought only california got april dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive as the owner of a v sabre shaftie i can answer from personal experience aieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee chuck smythe dod
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article apr newbridge com bradw newbridge com brad warkentin writes in article bethdc sv netcom com bethd netcom com beth dixon writes beth the one true beth dixon bethd netcom com yamaha sr spike the garage rat fssnoc now just wait one cotton picking minute here dod rule section paragraph clearly indicates that multiple people can t lay claim to a bike in an obvious ploy to artificially increase the size of their stable so the question of the day is is spike owned by a lady of true class and breeding my definition any woman who rides or by tom the harely head spike is owned by both tom and i we went s on the purchase price and have split costs of needed parts registration etc both names are on the pink slip i also note that you lay no claim to connie or ol sport like i said obviously a lady of discriminating taste i am covered by insurance to ride the harley i d give it a go if i could work the clutch i can barely get the clutch lever to move using both hands while standing next to the bike ol sport is a very distinctive bike the concours is favorite of mine i ve pillioned an easy miles on that bike in the last year unfortunately my feet are a good off the ground once i m on her no way i could take her for a ride as pilot rather than pillion if i could fit on a concours i d buy one imho the best sport tourer made i m not too upset i had to settle for the ducati ss as my touring bike though bored minds wanta know so now you know beth beth the one true beth dixon bethd netcom com yamaha sr excitable girl dod yamaha sr spike the garage rat fssnoc ducati ss ama ducati monza restoration project kqspt i can keep a handle on anything just this side of deranged zz top
rec.motorcycles	re back breaker near hit in article r o tu menudo uh edu inde wv rosie uh edu writes another to the list but with this one i felt the most helpless i am sitting at a light about car lengths behind a car a wise decsion suddenly i hear screeching tires i dart my eyes to my mirrors and realize it s the moroon flying up right behind me in my panic i pop my clutch and stall the bike luckily the guy stops a foot behind my rear wheel i understand why you theoretically stop so far behind a car but can you really in actuality avoid such an incident suggestions i ve only ever done it in an automatic i was sitting in my olds in the winter at a light when i heard screeching behind me i managed to dart into the left turn lane before the sliding jetta wound up half where i was and half in the parked car beside where i was i ve never had occasion to do it on a bike but i imagine that it would be even easier because you could slip beside the car in front giving a gander at the mirrors while at a light will give you time to get the clutch out smoothly when you notice trouble instead of waiting for the screeching i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in rec motorcycles egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher writes driving while impared it allows for prosecution of drivers under the influence of a variety of drugs like non sudafed cold medicines jeff deeney dod nctr xr shamu jld hpfcla fc hp com ama cohvco cb f llamaha the sound of fresh rain run off splashing from the roof reminded me of the sound of urine splashing into a filthy texaco latrine jack handey
rec.motorcycles	re well blow me down yuk yuk yuk in rec motorcycles rdc cunixf cc columbia edu robert d castro writes when how do you decide that it is too windy to ride when the bugs are splatting on the side of my helmet instead of the faceshield when semis are on their side in the downwind ditch when i can t see the road for all the tumbleweeds rolling past when the airborne sand gravel is sandblasting my paint job when all of the above is happening at once in the middle of wonderful wyldoming well it was gusting to mph cheers vlj
rec.motorcycles	re back breaker near hit in article r o tu menudo uh edu inde wv rosie uh edu writes i understand why you theoretically stop so far behind a car but can you really in actuality avoid such an incident suggestions if you had been looking in your mirror you would have seen the guy coming before you heard the screeching tires when you re stopped at a light stop so that you re got space in front of you and a quick easy escape route between lanes into a crosswalk up a driveway somewhere if someone decides they want to plow into you keep the bike in first with the clutch in until at least a couple of cars are stopped behind you so you don t have to waste a second you don t have trying to get it in gear if you need to move watch your mirrors in that situation most of the hazards you are trying to avoid are coming from behind you sipde msf geek speak isn t just for when you re moving and you re less likely to panic and stall the bike if you ve got time to prepare before the guy s tires lock up behind you you still get the bejeezus scared out of you but it s more a feeling of quickly rising dread than a sudden jolt ray shea unisql inc unisql ray cs utexas edu dod team twinkie hawk gt
rec.motorcycles	re bmw heated grips orating with wild abandon prange nickel ucs indiana edu henry prange offers the grips on my gs are a wonderful thing in the winter and no problem in the summer vibration bmw s don t vibrate everyone knows that i d agree with henry the grips are really nice to have in winter and aren t noticably different from normal grips in summer my only complaint is that the low setting might as well be off this has been complained about by every reviewer official and unofficial that s ever talked about these grips the high setting is often too high for use with lightweight summer gloves when things just get a bit nippy but since low doesn t produce a noticable effect i end up turning the grips on and off to keep the temperature about right this generally isn t a problem when wearing thicker winter gloves when i asked the dealer if they could fix it i received a consoling pat on the back and their sincere apologies for the poor design actually i was told they worked just like they were suppose to vibration what s that i ride a bmw twin you can barely tell if the engine is fired up or not most of the time smoother than silk sheets ken wallich wallich ncd com ken wallich com kmw al org decwrl vixie amber ken
rec.motorcycles	re where to put your helmet in article uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes another good place for your helmet is your mirror i kid you not if you own a typical standard or other bike with fairly average mirrors that screw into your handlebars your helmet should fit over your mirror and be fairly stable be careful that you do not have any weight of the helmet resting on the mirror it will depress the foam liner in the helmet that is not the kind of foam that bounces back like foam rubber its purpose in life is to absorb energy in an impact as it is compressed by your noggin if your mirror compresses it there is that much less energy absorbing capacity left to cushon your noggin in a crash i found the right handlebar to be a good spot if on the sidestand hang with the chinbar facing up balanced across the grip and brake lever such that the weight of the helmet doesn t compress any of the chinbar foam this is more challanging with an open face helmet ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re a point for helmet law is a point for in article prcrs prc com terry prcrs prc com terry cunningham writes i know of no law either on the books or proposed that bans motorcycles from any place that i want to go to so you really see no problem with banning them from places to which you don t want to go i have not heard or discussed with non motorcycling persons or read of any popular movement either in the country as a whole or in any of the states that is out to get motorcycles talk to somebody in the insurance industry particularly after a few drinks then talk to my mom no booze required one more thing if the public is misinformed and misunderstands as you state what are you and the others posting on this doing to correct the situation ever heard of the dod ever since i hit my teens i have found that there were terrible wrongs to right attitudes to adust blah blah blah fortunately i grew up nah you just became complacent that so long as your little quarter acre is safe you get your little tax deduction and no act of the government intrudes in too direct and obvious a way into your little day to day life you just don t give a shit ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re live free but quietly or die in article r g agate berkeley edu robinson cogsci berkeley edu michael robinson writes in article quaq i d sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes in article cbnewsm cb att com shz mare att com keeper of the tude writes don t you mean former motorcyclist no ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker i m sure there s a perfectly reasonable explanation yep ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article deh synoptics com noemi synoptics com noemi berry writes guess how you turn a horse look where you want to go and plan your turns and jumps the best riders give refined smooth inputs to the beast lots of maintenance leather looks cool sound familiar black ones look better none are truely indiginous to america although some of the finest are produced here gear is expensive and you never seem have enough of it volvos hit them only idiots intentionally rear up the front half off the ground just to look cool posers don t ride them in the rain they are dangerous on ice loud ones are annoying and too much chrome looks dumb yep sounds familiar ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article zen sys uea ac uk mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes all of us that argue about gyroscopes etc throughly understand the technique of countersteering including all the ones who think that they countersteer all the way through a corner well all the way through a decreasing radius corner anyway this is really the only thing we disagree on maybe we should agree to disagree ok but i m right the official line here though i do have my doubts about it is that the front brake is applied first followed by the rear brake the idea being that you avoid locking up the rear after weight transfer takes place if that s the official line taught in those rider education classes you were refering to that also don t teach countersteering i have to question the quality of the classes the official line in msf curricula is as i described maximum braking is achieved by applying both brakes equally when the weight distribution is nominally even and both tires have equal normal forces and easing off on the rear to prevent locking it and increasing braking on the front as more traction is available to the front due to increased normal force due to weight shift the official line you have been taught seems ineffective on the face of it applying the rear brake after the front is not taking advantage of all the traction available to the rear at time and is halving the available braking power by using only the front at time saying brake until the tire just begins to slide is next to useless advice to a newbie he has to go out and slide the tire to find out where that is it also gives him zero information from which to develop a braking technique that changes as the braking and corresponding weight shift develop if you don t slide the tyre you have no way of knowing whether you ve achieved maximum braking or not i m not suggesting that you should always aim to brake as hard as you possibly can but if you want to find the limits of the machine you have to go beyond them not necessarily true chirping the tire indicates impending lockup on most surfaces and serves as a good guide to newbies to indicate maximum braking i agree that totally locking the front occasionally makes one a better rider but it is a manuver best saved for an experienced rider unless you have one of those outrigger bikes like code used to use in any case for maximum braking if as i suggested you aim to keep both wheels just on the point of sliding then you ll be doing exactly as you suggest true but from the point of view of how to best teach riding skills which is how this discussion started keep both wheels just on the point of sliding is nearly useless information you need to teach a technique or at least a strategy to achieve this ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering sans hands in article bdrc bd com clarke bdrc bd com richard clarke writes so how do i steer when my hands aren t on the bars open budweiser in left hand camel cigarette in the right no feet allowed if i lean and the bike turns am i countersteering countersteering is a method for leaning the bike another method is leaning once leaned the bike turns all by itself ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article wrs wslack uucp wrs wslack uucp bill slack writes various posts about shafties can t do wheelies no mike it is imposible due to the shaft effect the centripital effects of the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel to lift off the ground good point john a buddy of mine told me that same thing when i had my bmw r gs i dumped the clutch at rpm hey ito nly revved to or so and you know what he was right uh folks the shaft doesn t have diddleysquatpoop to do with it i can get the front wheel off the ground on my ferchrissake you may have been able to bounce the front up but not actually do a wheelie see the shaft effect unloads the rear susspension and effectivly loads the front this is why a shaft bike should accelerate if it starts scraping in a corner laz
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in article moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes what does dwi stand for i thought it was dui for driving under influence so here what does w stand for driving while impared it allows for prosecution of drivers under the influence of a variety of drugs ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes also nc recently last few years decided that due to the fact there are constantly people on the road drunk driving they will raise their awareness of it by making stricter laws and as such now i believe nc has the toughest laws for dwi while not necessarily increasing any amount of awareness or kills on the highways meaning it s only made a difference at sentencing automatic revocation of your license for a year i m not sure it s the toughtest law around but nc has absolutely no sense of humor with respect to driving laws anyway i think they put you in jail and sell your first child into slavery for passing a school bus a bill breezed through the nc house to lower the intoxification level from to it faces stiff opposition in the senate recently the highway patrol took a few of the opposition senators out and gave them some shots and when they hit put them on a course dodging cones they failed and will probably change their votes as a result for some bizarre reason nc is the only state where the governer has no veto power over legislation coming out of the state congress so his opinion on the matter is moot ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re story in article apr pacesetter com lynn pacesetter com lynn e hall writes i just got back from the th annual southern california harley dealers association run to the colorado river city of lauglin nevada aka the lauglin run i went there too all i can say is too much trash i hate the b the b can bite me
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion i ve never ridden pillion very much but recently had an excellent experience passengering with dave edmondson at pilot while in london i found that it upset the bike much less if i rode with the pilot that is if i looked over his shoulder and anticipated when i should hold on hard for braking or acceleration i tried to always look over the inside shoulder on corners and move as little as possible leaving dave to manage me and the bike as he normally would the bike and luggage hard acceleration can be quite unnerving as the feeling of being spit off the back is hard to fight similarly i held on to the grab handles tightly when dave needed to brake so as not to mash him to a pulp i m a lot bigger than he is reaching around him and pushing off the tank seemed like it would be very awkward and make it even harder for him to manage on the rare occasions when i carry a passenger myself i absolutely refuse to carry anyone who is not properly accoutered for riding that s helmet jacket gloves stout pants and shoes boots as a minimum it s not my responsibility to provide this gear but it s my responsibility to require it if they want to ride and i agree with an earlier poster if you ve not had much experience carrying a particular passenger and especially if you ve not carried many passengers before take a few gentler rides of some duration before you head off to a difficult road like mines mt hamilton that s a nasty place to find yourself in trouble godfrey digiorgi ramarren apple com dod ama rule never sell a ducati the street finds its own rule always obey rule uses for things wg ducati cinelli toyota krups nikon sony apple telebit
rec.motorcycles	re type spesifications cb vfr gt etc in article c sk d c p srgenprp sr hp com frankb sad hp com frank ball writes vidar olaf solberg vidaros dhhalden no wrote can somebody tell me what all the letter spesifications on motorcycle models really mean cb is a street bike with an parallel twin or inline cylinder engine frank ball ur m frankb sad hp com work hmmm my first bike a cb s was a single
rec.motorcycles	re squids and dealers in article c vxh auv cbnewsl cb att com kstell cbnewsl cb att com kevin l stell writes stuff chopped here is the part that concerned me the hg and those shop personel that were not busy with customers went back out where said hg members fired up their rides and did the obligatory reving up of those beasts at this point one decided to see how much rubber a katana could deposit in the drive squids i thought to myself but i was appalled that the salesdroids manager not only condoned this behavior but encourged it to the point were they were betting how long he could keep it up and egged him on to pull a wheely as he rode off onto a busy street around rush hour the girl that was riding pillion on another bike seemed rather hormonal about this display and urged her pilot to quickly catch up the others followed making sure there kerkers could be heard as well as felt um you gotta understand these salesdroids as you call them they look at it this way burn lotsa tire make lotsa money i m sure s he knew how stupid the hg was would you seriously stop them from burning off a seasons worth of tire the squids probably would buy metzelers or some good low profile tire anyhow yep them droids sure a sneaky bastards regards ted university of toronto computer engineering powerusersgroupchairman fzr i m taking a ride with my best friend dod
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes has anyone while driving a cage ever waved at bikers i get the urge but i ve never actually done it oh yeah all the time on a nice spring summer day i roll down the window and drive around looking for bikes when a bike motors by in the opposite direction i stick my arm out and hi em my arm feels like a million bucks when i m doing this a km h i do the same thing with cyclists the only problem with hi ing a cyclist is their always in the right hand lane i hafta roll down the other window and hi them on the back oh well i think they appreciate the thought regards ted university of toronto computer engineering powerusersgroupchairman fzr i m taking a ride with my best friend dod
rec.motorcycles	re first bike honda ascot in article contex contex com frank marvin contex com frank perdicaro says the ft is fun i wanted to buy one but i waited years an bought a hawk instead friends owners of the former cycle shop on in andover bought one new but several years old cost him you should not pay too much for one i hear they can be fitted with the front end of a cc interceptor and thus have great brakes sounds like fun some dude on this forum has one thats all tricked out second hand bike warns that they are fine up until miles the ft is a good beginner s bike with a reasonable seating position enough power to get you up and around but not so much it ll scare the bejeebers out of you tips over well and easy to pick up don t ask simple maintenance i ve had mine for four or so years and haven t had any serious problems with it i bought it used for with about miles on it just last week someone in the neighborhood stopped by to ask me about it whether i thought it was a good beginner s bike is it comfortable and powerful enough blah blah blah seems he found one used for with about miles on it the reall trick mod i ve heard was to take the front end from a hurricane and slide it in this was from a guy who campaigns two ascots in sos racing he says they do pretty well too once you strip off the starter lights and other assorted street paraphernalia its a pretty fast and light bike andrew coll esv psuvm bitnet esv psuvm psu edu
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion irwin cmptrc lonestar org irwin arnstein writes in article mjs zen sys uea ac uk mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes if i m riding i would far sooner have the pillion hanging on to the bike rather than me because i find that their weight can cause me to move and that can upset the balance of the bike most of the pillions i see over here hold the grabrail the really good ones don t hang on to anything unless violent acceleration is taking place hmmmmn don t you ride with your sweetheart only in my dreams
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies hey nick i got a bounce from postmaster bnr ca it seems that they ve never heard of a user npet you should sort these guys out tony tony kidson pgp key by request voice morgan towers the cat has had to move now e mail in order morgan road as i ve had to take the top tony morgan demon co uk bromley off of the machine tny cix compulink co uk england br qe honda st dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article apr megatek com randy megatek com writes when did you go out and change the laws of physics according to some numbers i used to see bandied around shaft drive is on the order of efficient while chain drive is closer to seems to me that this makes chain drive more efficient hmmmmm well maintained chains running in oil without those little rubber o rings to cause frictional losses might reach efficiency the average open to the dust o ring motorcycle chain probably has a difficult job making efficient tony tony kidson pgp key by request voice morgan towers the cat has had to move now e mail in order morgan road as i ve had to take the top tony morgan demon co uk bromley off of the machine tny cix compulink co uk england br qe honda st dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	re back breaker near hit in article r o tu menudo uh edu inde wv rosie uh edu writes bike luckily the guy stops a foot behind my rear wheel i understand why you theoretically stop so far behind a car but can you really in actuality avoid such an incident suggestions anybody who drove into somebody like that in this country would hopefully lose their licence however the avoidance is simple don t stop behind the cage stop beside it or better still in front of it so that it acts as a buffer tony tony kidson pgp key by request voice morgan towers the cat has had to move now e mail in order morgan road as i ve had to take the top tony morgan demon co uk bromley off of the machine tny cix compulink co uk england br qe honda st dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	re back breaker near hit why do you let such brain dead idiots drive in the us tony tony kidson pgp key by request voice morgan towers the cat has had to move now e mail in order morgan road as i ve had to take the top tony morgan demon co uk bromley off of the machine tny cix compulink co uk england br qe honda st dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	please tell me they re not permenant scratches is there a way to wax out a dull finish minor scrathes while passngering on my fiance s bandit my hip pack rubbed against the tail and left a nasty dull finish and teeny scratches is there a way to get rid of these buff them out wax them out help thanks in advance cathy cathy saum cs andrew cmu edu s negley ave yamaha seca xj pgh pa cl custom wooden tank studio mustang v dod supercalifragilisticexpealidotious
rec.motorcycles	re a kinder gentler bmw mailing list joe i m sorry you felt i was pissing on your list no disparagement was intended and i would be most interested to know what i said that made you feel that way i am not suggesting that your list is superflous nor that it will not serve a need i just would like not to see the boxer contingent split but there is certainly enough net for more than one list bob pasker rbp netcom com
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in jnmoyne moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes ok hold on a second and clarify something for me what does dwi stand for i thought it was dui for driving under influence so here what does w stand for jnm here in iowa it is has been owi operating under the influence and omvi operating motor vehicle under the influence they gov t changed it to omvi so that people in motor boats could also be charged with drunk driving eerik j villberg p people for the eerik iastate edu e eating of harris street t tasty ames ia a animals
rec.motorcycles	re back breaker near hit in article apr rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes in article r o tu menudo uh edu inde wv rosie uh edu writes another to the list but with this one i felt the most helpless i am sitting at a light about car lengths behind a car a wise decsion suddenly i hear screeching tires i dart my eyes to my mirrors and realize it s the moroon flying up right behind me in my panic i pop my clutch and stall the bike luckily the guy stops a foot behind my rear wheel i understand why you theoretically stop so far behind a car but can you really in actuality avoid such an incident suggestions another tip is to make sure you keep well to one side of the lane this gives you a quicker escape route jeff goss
rec.motorcycles	re looking for movies w bikes in article c w w dpd dcs qmw ac uk davide dcs qmw ac uk dave edmondson writes charles sundheim csundh ursa calvin edu wrote folks i am assembling info for a film criticism class final project how bout big faus and little halsey with robert redford and that little guy that was in bonnie clyde good flick imho michael michael nelson cbr rr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod
rec.motorcycles	re v max handling request jearls tekig pen tek com jeffrey david earls wrote ba ntuvax ntu ac sg writes hello there can anyone who has handson experience on riding the yamaha v max pls kindly comment on its handling some guy came to the omrra race school last weekend with number plates on his v max he didn t get more than practice laps in before he pushed the frame too hard and it drove him into the guard rail on the back straight portland international raceway is now for on v max es v max handling ferget it btw the rider was conscious and semi coherent when the ambulance carted him off that s all i know i hate to pick on someone who may have been seriously injured let s hope not but semi coherent sounds like a good description of someone who shows up at the track w a vmax in the first place tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	re live free but quietly or die egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher wrote shz mare att com keeper of the tude writes egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher writes i know it sounds ludicrous for a biker to advocate restrictions on biking in a biking forum don t you mean former motorcyclist no hmmmmmmmmm i can read this one of two ways ed gotabike motorcyclist is like alcoholic once you re an alcoholic you re always an alcoholic at least that s what friends in a position to know tell me tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	re bmw boxer tv ad karr cs cornell edu david karr wrote mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes did anyone see the tv ad for the new bmw boxer on u k television at the weekend not me since i have no reception and no cable i m not likely to see any ads and if i did they d most likely be have been taped in the us anyway yeh be tough to pick up uk telly in your situation no signs of type ads in tv in the states yet but i don t watch much so i m not in a real position to comment but i got my invite to the dealer introduction on the deck out back rsvp is on the way tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	yamaha locks was cobra lock has anyone any experience with the new yamaha cyclelok it looks like it uses the same hardened steel as a kryptonite u lock but unlike a u lock it is hinged in places and opens out to a large rectangle longer length than any u lock i have seen plus it folds down to real small so you could lock the rear tire to a steel post for example i was curious as to how well the jointed sections would stand up to attack tony tony jones ant cray com uunet cray ant cmcs codegeneration group software division cray research inc f lone oak drive eagan mn
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax and mail order in article apr dsd es com bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes in article apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes i bought it i tried it it is truly the miracle spooge my chain is lubed my wheel is clean after km i d try it on the vfr but goddamn competition accessories hasn t mailed my order yet hell it s only been two weeks and i was ordering some pretty bizzare stuff like a clear rf face sheild and a can of chain wax bastards for what it s worth i got my can in three days from chaparral that s ups ground from ca to ut ymmv the stuff seems to work and it doesn t attract grundge like pj blue does i gave it the acid test a full day s worth of breaking in the quadracer s new paddle tires down at the sand dunes if there s anything wet stickey it will be coated with sand at the end of the day but the chain looked pretty clean i ll third the recommendation as miracle spooge don t go to the dealer to get it or what happened to me might happen to you you put a deposit on a new bike sigh chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re cobra locks in article apr hemlock cray com ant palm cray com tony jones writes steve bunis se southwest chicago doc webrider central sun com wrote i was posting to alt locksmithing about the best methods for securing a motorcycle i got several responses referring to the cobra lock described below has anyone come across a store carrying this lock in the chicago area any other feedback from someone who has used this what about the new yamaha cyclelok it is far from new it s been around almost as long as dirt from the photo in motorcyclist it looks the same hardened steel as a kryptonite u lock except it folds in five places it seems to extend out far enough to lock the rear tire to the tube of a parking sign or similar anyone had any experience with them how easy is it to attack the lock at the jointed sections i had one for one of my old bikes worked fine i m sure being rigid and nonflexible that the cyclelok would yield instantly to the freeze and break routine but then for what do ya want later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	help me adjust my tappits well just got all the parts replaced that needed replced sprokets chain and notice that engine still taps like it did before all our local experts say it s the tappits that need some adjusting so i am soon to attempt that i would like any advice anyone had i do not have a shop manual but have read about the procedure in chiltons and in a few other places is there anything i need to be particularaly carful of any problems anyone else has encountered i ride a yamaha exciter cc stop laughing it s tiny but it s shiny matthew sheppard clarkson university sheppamj sun soe clarkson edu i d rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy anon i don t want a pickle dod tep ride free etcetera
rec.motorcycles	re why i wanted police officers to answer my posting just one little thing last year mid december a cop pulled me over it was about centigrade and it just started snowing o k you are right i live in canada the cop checked my license insurance ownership looked at my frozen nose and fingers told me to watch the speed limit more closely and entering his cruiser told me i was doing instead of km h didn t ticket me and i really slowed down after that i already mentioned it started to snow safe riding stefan stefan ruhl german exchange student come out on a honda if you can get it running
rec.motorcycles	re touring the southwest kim fatcity cts com kim sharpe writes a few of us are touring sothwest utah in mid june to see the canyons do any of you have some helpful hints on where to stay or things to see do avoid plans are to see bryce zion arches is the grand close at that point or is an additional trip required any help would be nice thank you for your support spring break i went through the four corners area and back the most beautiful stop i made was in utah at the needles overlook though this is a bit further east than where you appear to be going i highly recommend it imho it is far more beautiful than the grand canyon it was not well marked but was one of few paved roads off of us i was heading north from monticello in order to get to the right place i should clarify that it is the needles overlook and not the recreation area heading north from monticello it is the second turnoff and may have been marked as the anticline overlook anticline overlook is about dirt if this matters to you miles past the needles overlook the road out to the overlook is paved and reasonably maintained i ran it about mph looking out from the overlook was like being god and looking down on the world if it isn t too far out of your way you should see it dan martin i can t stand this proliferation of paperwork martind spot its useless to fight the forms you ve got to kill the people producing them colorado edu vladimir p kabaidze soviet plant manager
rec.motorcycles	re how to buy a first bike etc bclarke galaxy gov bc ca writes there have been a lot of posts lately about i wanna buy my first bike is gsxr zx cbr fzr a good bike to learn on etc i think i m going to put together a faq on buying a new bike ravi used to po one all the time bruce clarke b c environment e mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca make that buying a first bike a new bike is not generally a good first bike dean woodward you want to step into my world dean fringe rain com it s a socio psychotic state of bliss virago guns n roses my world dod
rec.motorcycles	re a kinder gentler bmw mailing list rbp netcom com bob pasker writes joe i m sorry you felt i was pissing on your list no disparagement was intended and i would be most interested to know what i said that made you feel that way you didn t i meant pissing like boxer owners piss on k bike owners and k bike owners piss on boxer owners and so forth in the end it s nothing more than co owner ribbing no disparagement was received or returned intentionally sorry bout the lack of s joe senner joe rider cactus org bmw mailing list bmw rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org
rec.motorcycles	re back breaker near hit in article snz morgan demon co uk tony morgan demon co uk writes why do you let such brain dead idiots drive in the us because unlike the uk passing the average driving test over here usually only requires a pulse a single digit iq every state controls their own licensing requirements so it s possible that there s a test out there that actually requires some driving skills but i doubt it blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax and mail order in article apr dsd es com bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes in article apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes i d try it on the vfr but goddamn competition accessories hasn t mailed my order yet hell it s only been two weeks and i was ordering some pretty bizzare stuff like a clear rf face sheild and a can of chain wax bastards for what it s worth i got my can in three days from chaparral that s ups ground from ca to ut ymmv the stuff seems to work and it doesn t i just called them and they said the order went out on the th they re putting a ups tracer on it watch it ll be waiting for me at home tonight dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington rd bedford ma kotnml kotb the road is my shepherd and i shall not stop vfr f sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in article r pbu k sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes driving while impared it allows for prosecution of drivers under the influence of a variety of drugs it s a shame there s no law against driving while stupid after a little while it would prevent all kinds of accidents dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington rd bedford ma kotnml kotb the road is my shepherd and i shall not stop vfr f sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited
rec.motorcycles	re touring the southwest in article f b w w fatcity cts com kim fatcity cts com kim sharpe writes a few of us are touring sothwest utah in mid june to see the canyons do any of you have some helpful hints on where to stay or things to see do avoid plans are to see bryce zion arches is the grand close at that point or is an additional trip required well it s closer to bryce than bryce is to arches i d spend a lot of time studying the maps there s a lot of you can t get there from here in that area you might want to hit the grand canyon on the way up from california loop around to canyonlands moab arches and then back down towards bryce zion on the way home make sure you ride us between capitol reef and bryce it s been on a number of top roads lists a nice booklet detailing a lot of interesting paved byways and unpaved backways roads can be ordered from the utah travel council i think you can also get a state map from them just for asking utah byways and backways us utah travel council council hall capitol hill salt lake city ut blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article snz morgan demon co uk tony morgan demon co uk writes in article apr megatek com randy megatek com writes when did you go out and change the laws of physics according to some numbers i used to see bandied around shaft drive is on the order of efficient while chain drive is closer to seems to me that this makes chain drive more efficient hmmmmm well maintained chains running in oil without those little rubber o rings to cause frictional losses might reach efficiency the average open to the dust o ring motorcycle chain probably has a difficult job making efficient how about some sources for all these numbers or is this more stuff that everybody knows blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in stafford stafford winona msus edu stafford vax winona msus edu john stafford writes on apr gmt xlyx vax cit cornell edu said is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive yes but the rear wheel comes off the ground not the front see it just hops into the air figure i know the roads up there in minnesota are pretty bad but i doubt that they are that bad i ve never realy tried to watch my back tyre but my maxim will pull the front wheel off the ground if i pop the clutch admittedly it is easier with someone on back maybe that s what keeps the rear tyre down john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply eerik j villberg p people for the eerik iastate edu e eating of harris street t tasty ames ia a animals
rec.motorcycles	re v max handling request in article tcora b gator pica army mil tcora pica army mil tom coradeschi writes jearls tekig pen tek com jeffrey david earls wrote ba ntuvax ntu ac sg writes hello there can anyone who has handson experience on riding the yamaha v max pls kindly comment on its handling vmax racing horror story deleted portland international raceway is now for on v max es v max handling ferget it actually a wera racer william lumsden considered running a vmax in a superstock he took it out to talladega gpr for a practice day and really annoyed the riders they usually got caught behind a sideways vmax in the corners and if they passed him going in he d blow by down the straight usually wobbling needless to say since he was seconds faster on a cb f he decided against the vmax too bad ray hixon wera expert a single minded guy
rec.motorcycles	re help me adjust my tappits sheppamj sun soe clarkson edu matthew sheppard writes all our local experts say it s the tappits that need some adjusting so i am soon to attempt that i would like any advice anyone had if this is the same as adjusting the shims between cam and valve i have the same question do you buy a full set of shims before starting the adjustment process or do you calculate the shims you need and then run off to the dealer in the cage to see if the right shims are in stock obviously the latter would be cheaper what do shims cost but are measurements of the shim need reliable enough to buy only the indicated shims chris christopher g karras internet cgkarras world std com
rec.motorcycles	re dod confessional in article apr bnr ca mbeaving bnr ca writes i can t help myself i ve tried to be rational to look the other way but everytime it happens its uncontrollable i hate pre s motorcycles hah newbie bait everyone knows the first motorcycle wasn t built until there were no pre s motorcycles at first i thought it was a phase i though i would get used to them it didn t happen i tried gazing at cb s and customs but each time i sadistically pictured them being hurled off of large precipice i also picture a swarm of german tourists cheering and taking holiday snaps but i can t figure that part out you ve been watching too much northern exposure what am i to do everytime i read a sig containing some spoked wheel wonder i shudder and feel pity that the poor soul has suffered enough why because our wheels are repairable i imagine the owner scrapping out his or her living in a discarded maytag refridgerator box tucked in next to their cx humph obviously more bait everyone knows you don t discard maytag boxes even after they ve become uninhabitable they re make a great poor boy s mechanic s creeper cx whazzat i m hoping for some deliverance okay let s hear you squeal like a pig i had in the past loathed the milwaukee machine but i can actually begin to understand some of the preaching there must be hope beware fanatical preaching lest the residents of waco texas set up a huge salad bar in your honor jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf cl k gleep naperville il there s nothing quite like the pitter patter of little feet followed by the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	re moa members another letter to read in article apr ra msstate edu vech ra msstate edu craig a vechorik writes o k moa ers you read it think for yourself i trust you do know who cecil king is and that he was editor befor don douglass and he is a pres candidate i let you draw your own conclusions i don t know who either is but i think i see your problem you ve got cecil king and don douglass what you need is don king and cecil adams or maybe rodney king and beanie cecil jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf cl k gleep naperville il there s nothing quite like the pitter patter of little feet followed by the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	black reflector tape a few months ago in one the the motorcycle mags there was an article that mentioned reflector tape that was supposed to be available thru bmw the idea was that the tape would look black in sunlight and reflect in other colors at night to headlights it sounded like a nice way to add nighttime visibility without turning the bike into a carnival attraction i talked to the local bmw dealer about this i was told that the only thing he had heard about this kind of reflector was it being used in a coming line of bmw clothing rainsuits he wasn t aware of anything regarding self applied tape has anyone come across this from bmw or any other source thanks steve bunis sun microsystems dod st itasca il ama kz
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies xlyx vax cit cornell edu writes is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive yes erik astrup afm dod cbr rr cbr concours ninja this one goes to eleven nigel tufnel lead guitar spinal tap
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax in article drutx att com pms torreys att com paul m smith writes in article rmugele apr oasun oracle com rmugele oracle com robert mugele writes i ve tried unsuccessfully to locate a place that sells maxima chain wax in the dallas area does anyone know of a retail outlet for it in this area or a mail order purveyor anywhere in the dallas area i just bought a can it s for my best friend s bike a xlh mines got a belt hahahahaha for with tax at bates discount cycle parts on the southbound i e service road in farmers branch just a couple miles north of the i i e interchange they have about a dozen cans left neal howard xlh dod computrac inc richardson tx doh o neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer my opinions are mine not computrac s let us learn to dream gentlemen and then perhaps we shall learn the truth august kekule
rec.motorcycles	re why i wanted police officers to answer my posting in article apr iscnvx lmsc lockheed com jrlaf sgi msd lmsc lockheed com j r laferriere writes stuff deleted questions to ask a typical cop a in regards to pulling over someone of a minor moving violation rolling stop unsignaled lane change ish mph over speed limit etc minor you put unsignalled lane change in a minor category now i know who these guys are jeff goss
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article snz morgan demon co uk tony morgan demon co uk tony kidson writes well maintained chains running in oil without those little rubber o rings to cause frictional losses might reach efficiency the average open to the dust o ring motorcycle chain probably has a difficult job making efficient so of the hp produced by my fj engine hp watts hp kilowatts is being dumped into leetle tiny o rings that s watts per o ring seems a little hot doncha think o chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion one of the reasons i originally liked my current guythingy so much was becase he had a bmw sigh that s music to my ears after all the complaining lois did about the seat on my bmw the best passengers are those which are unobtrusive echo the movements and lean of your rider look over the shoulder thats most comfortable but during turns look over the shoulder on the inside of the turn i ve found that the phrase sack of potatoes works pretty well in describing to a passenger how s he should act switch your hands to the guardrail to stretch your shoulders but be sure and squeeze your thighs while you re doing it so your rider knows you re still there the guard rail isn t as safe as holding onto your rider on a long ride with my ex girlfriend nancy i would notice her drifting off every so often we were droning down highway to la i probably wouldn t have been aware of this if she hadn t been in the habit of squeezing my butt with her knees to hold on good advice mellon mellon ncd com uunet lupine mellon member of the league for programming freedom to find out how software patents may cost you your right to program contact lpf uunet uu net
rec.motorcycles	re yamaha locks was cobra lock in article apr hemlock cray com ant palm cray com tony jones writes has anyone any experience with the new yamaha cyclelok oooo i hope it s nothing like i had on my seca turbo i had locked up the back wheel and forgot about it when i took off i heard a clunk but i just drove away leaving the lock broken on the ground real security in action the beav mike beavington dod v sabre mbeaving bnr ca my employer has no idea what i m talking about
rec.motorcycles	re help me adjust my tappits christopher g karras cgkarras world std com wrote if this is the same as adjusting the shims between cam and valve i have the same question do you buy a full set of shims before starting the adjustment process or do you calculate the shims you need and then run off to the dealer in the cage to see if the right shims are in stock obviously the latter would be cheaper what do shims cost but are measurements of the shim need reliable enough to buy only the indicated shims only buy what you need it would cost a lot to buy a full set and you won t ever use most of them i have had good luck with the calculation method i have never had to change more than one size increment at a time i never needed a change larger than the next size up down usually down they cost a few each for a yamaha frank ball ur m frankb sad hp com work hewlett packard fax home valley house drive it xt seca f pl rohnert park ca kc wug law ama dod i m the nra
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other in article mavenry altcit eskimo com maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes waving at other bikers makes more sense than just hey how s it going nice to meet you on the road have a good ride it keeps you in the habit of watching really carefully for bikes when you re in a cage this is a good thing has anyone while driving a cage ever waved at bikers i get the urge but i ve never actually done it i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada let s see how many posts it takes for someone to selectively quote this article
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other in article arturo infmx arturo informix com arturo vega writes has anyone else ever caught themselves waving at oncoming motorcycle riders while in a car ha if i m not on my bike it s because its broken and i m walkin really the way it should be kyle cassidy cassidy rowan edu fire all of your guns at once dod
rec.motorcycles	re looking for movies w bikes in article csundh ursa csundh ursa calvin edu charles sundheim writes i am assembling info for a film criticism class final project man every time this thread comes up i start jumping up and down screaming easy wheels easy wheels but to date it seems like i m the only one who s ever seen this it s absolutely hysterical basic plot is this reporter searching for a ring of babysnatchers is blow off the road by a very hot gang of babe bikers in leather he is rescued from his wrecked car in the desert by a xtian gospal biker band lead by an ex viet nam vet with a steel plate in his head that gives him visions from time to time they soon discover that the gang o babes is kidnapping children to be raised by wolves the reasoning behind this is complex and they set out to stop them and restore justice and order to the world it is one of the funniest movies i have ever seen in my life kyle cassidy cassidy rowan edu fire all of your guns at once dod
rec.motorcycles	re female s looking for riding buddy in a previous article deb ccc amdahl com david e ben jamin says i am a single white female in s looking for a man with a motorcycle to share fun trips from to days or more i have a honda magna and riding is my life but it s hard to find people to ride with this is my son s account so please respond to this address for more info phone number etc thanks i don t need a sig you don t mention your riding area if you re in the eastern part of ontario canada i may be able to help i love day runs and more more info needed lloyd xv my stallion dod carr aa freenet carleton ca munster e mail carr uranus dgrc doc ca ontario ham ip ve fhc ve osq eon on ca na
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes spray the chain wax onto the rollers and sideplates occassionally and rust will not be a problem i did regularly and it was michael michael nelson cbr rr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod
rec.motorcycles	re i need your advice i m a new rider any information that any of you could give me would be greatly appreciated just send the reply to my account or if you d like back to the net chris melching cjmelching leo bsuvc bsu edu my vivid imagination sez this is almost close enuff mail to cjmelching leo bsuvc bsu edu users neal dod faq dod but naw neal howard xlh dod computrac inc richardson tx doh o neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer my opinions are mine not computrac s let us learn to dream gentlemen and then perhaps we shall learn the truth august kekule
rec.motorcycles	re your opinion and what it means to me in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes in article c wduw l o nmrdc nmrdc nnmc navy mil dsc jfs nmrdc nmrdc nnmc navy mil jim small writes in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes stuff deleted oh my a real honest to goodness flamewar fired up here and it even has some relevance to motorcycling amazing neal howard xlh dod computrac inc richardson tx doh o neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer my opinions are mine not computrac s let us learn to dream gentlemen and then perhaps we shall learn the truth august kekule
rec.motorcycles	re looking for movies w bikes what about grease ii arun cool rider noe there s a look in your eyes like black holes in the sky shine on you crazy diamonds
rec.motorcycles	re yamaha locks was cobra lock any lock including the kyptonite utypes are easy to break into if the person has the proper supplies and or motivation minutes and your bike is gone i would be glad to explain but i dont want to contribute to any unlawful activities especially since i have a bike that i would hate to see ripped off by such a trival tactic warning no lock alone is a safe deterent against theft the thief doesnt need to be a locksmith or a lock picker to walk away with your property i personally think motion alarms in combination to a lock of this type is the way to go if in fact you are that concerned bill
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other mbeaving bnr ca michael beavington writes the down side is that when i m in my cage i have on numerous occasions slammed my hand into the rolled up window in an effort to wave at a passing biker ow shouldn t this be in the dwi thread
rec.motorcycles	re dogs heathman ncsa uiuc edu michael heathman writes professionals who train guard dogs when polled gave themselves a in chance of survival tackling a trained dog unarmed a trained guard dog is not to be trifled with an untrained mutt may be another story of course they d say that they re trying to sell their services
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article apr colorado edu laszlo eclipse cs colorado edu laszlo nemeth writes in article wrs wslack uucp wrs wslack uucp bill slack writes various posts about shafties can t do wheelies no mike it is imposible due to the shaft effect the centripital effects of the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel to lift off the ground good point john a buddy of mine told me that same thing when i had my bmw r gs i dumped the clutch at rpm hey ito nly revved to or so and you know what he was right uh folks the shaft doesn t have diddleysquatpoop to do with it i can get the front wheel off the ground on my ferchrissake you may have been able to bounce the front up but not actually do a wheelie see the shaft effect unloads the rear susspension and effectivly loads the front this is why a shaft bike should accelerate if it starts scraping in a corner laz sorry to be contradictory but i ve had my nighthawk at degress with the horizon and i wasn t banked over in a turn the hard part is getting the front in off the ground i rev to about at drop the clutch even harder is keeping it from coming up to far i use the back brake as well as the throttle once its up it ll wheelie just like any other bike ethan ethan bowerman dod cb sc nighthawk hey who cuts yer hair man nothing clears the mind quite cheech and chong like a maxed out tach and a a closed mouth contains no feet buried speedometer unknown me
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in article jnmoyne moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes what does dwi stand for dancing with idjits ray shea they wound like a very effective method unisql inc leah unisql ray cs utexas edu some days i miss d boon real bad dod team twinkie hawk gt
rec.motorcycles	re a point for helmet law is a point for mc b in article prcrs prc com terry prcrs prc com terry cunningham writes in article apr rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes oh banning motorcycles is not actually reasonable it is only reasonable in the eyes of a misinformed and misunderstanding public or conversely your attitude could seem blind and apathetic i know of no law either on the books or proposed that bans motorcycles from any place that i want to go to motorcycles are not allowed on th mile drive at pebble beach jolly roger
rec.motorcycles	re cagers who thunk of it in article apr cua edu wendel cua edu writes who gets credit for the perfectly descriptive name cagers also does anybody know when the term was first used thanks i do yesterday seriously countess ada of lovelace gets the credit she first used it in the late s her bike the spokeless wonder jack waters ii dod i don t fear the thief in the night its the one that comes in the afternoon when i m still asleep that i worry about
rec.motorcycles	assorted ranting grr hate the bastard who picked the weather for today went up to visit a friend overnight about minute ride rode up after work only minor drizzing for the last minutes of the ride rest of the ride was very zen got up this morning needed to go home and get some disks stuff to work on her computers with rainy as all hell soaked and cold by the time i got home since i didn t have another set of thermals which were dry i said to heck with it and drove my cage back up lo and behold those funny blue clouds were up in the sky and this warm yellow thing i haven t seen in quite awhile showed up when i was minutes into the trip and me in my cage oh joy happily my right hand mirror finally showed up at the dealer dropped the bike when i first got it put on an emgo replacement mirror hated it the entire time that thing was on my bike because i couldn t see a damned thing through it plus it s flat instead of convex like the stock mirrors so you get a narrow angle wobbly blur and i got a replacement windshield for my fairing dropped the original and chipped the front edge cosmetic but annoying so i spent half an hour happily unscrewing things and replacing them this afternoon bout the only thing i still hate about the bike cb t is the damned d cell flashlight headlight has anyone seen a good source for watt halogen passing lights since the charging system on the cb t can t handle continuous use of a w halogen headlight i was thinking about putting a couple passing lights on that would give me w of lighting for the rare night riding i do but wouldn t drain the battery during normal use chiefly day trips and commuting to work and back
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies xlyx vax cit cornell edu mike terry asks is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive ak yfn ysu edu john r daker replies no mike it is imposible due to the shaft effect the centripital effects of the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel to lift off the ground ugh who gave you guys your login names blech p john obviously never saw me ride a buddy s cx known as torque monster i could pull the most beautiful skyshots with that bike unfortunately the owner saw me do one once i never get to ride tm again mr bill bill leavitt cbx white lightning gs g suzibago leavitt cs umd edu cj little honda lone star sick leave dod ama icoa nia impala convertible the incredible hulk others hmmm i thought bore and stroke was the technique michael bain
rec.motorcycles	re where to put your helmet in article apr rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes in article uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes another good place for your helmet is your mirror this dents and dings the liner sometimes quite a bit i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada it also works great to put under your kickstand on those really hot days when the tar gets really soft jim rags rye senior technical support analyst harley davidson rye crayamid cray com cray research inc mpls mn if you re going to do something tonight that you ll be sorry for tomorrow morning sleep late henny youngman my opinions are mine and only mine but for a small fee you may rent them
rec.motorcycles	re your opinion and what it means to me c mon you guys motorcycles booze don t mix nuff said bruce clarke b c environment e mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca
rec.motorcycles	re why i wanted police officers to answer my posting csundh ursa calvin edu charles sundheim writes some potentially cool story stuff here do share the details how to get a verbal warning for in a it s simple first it has to be the first really nice riding day of spring the bike is back together again and so are you grab all your gear put it on and fill the tank with octane premium or better head out in ames there is a road that leads to the little town of gilbert gilbert has one stop light if that tells you something having just gotten the bike back together i thought i d take it for a short ride and check things out heading out of town i went into the twisties at a slow pace just under the speed limit and started leaning around the pace quickened as everything felt just right finally the road straightened and i was ready for a bit of speed grab third gear open her up at roughly mph grab fourth gear look at as much of the bike as you can and fail to notice a state trooper following a quarter mile behind twist the throttle like a fool grab fifth gear at or so and see just how well she s been put back together at according to radar i noticed the front fender was flexing a bit thus i slowed pulled off the road removed my helmet and gloves unslung the took kit i was carrying in a fanny pack and was just starting to tighten that fender when the trooper pulled in all hot and flustered have you any idea how fast you were going not precisely no i was paying attention to the bike and road not the instruments i just got her back together last night and i m just out here testing her out before i ride it in traffic my radar says you were at over mph care to tell me why i shouldn t give you a ticket because i was testing the motorcycle away from population and traffic on a strait and flat road while wearing all the protective gear that safety demands note i wasn t quite that eloquent say what kind of bike is that anyway i was eloquent on my cafe racer replica honda a rat bike yeah i haven t had my bike out of the garage in years compare riding stories pack toolkit having tightened that fender so why were you out here i figure every other idiot on the road is going to look right through me if the bike fails somehow in a mph zone i m dead if it holds up out here then i know it will work right in traffic i do this evvery year when i rebuild her not any more you ll find a better place than my highway to do those speeds if i ever catch you speeding on my highway again i m going to nail you for everything i possibly can now get out of my sight before i write you a ticket yes officer and kid keep your eyes open out there drives off and that in a nut shell is how to get a warning for in a i don t guarantee that it will work for you but it worked for me dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies course the only people who seem to be acting smug now probably have chain final drive which as we all know is less efficient and has higher maintenance and probably didn t know the answer at the start of the thread anyway i have laz s solemn assurance that he she it was serious with the only paralevers can pull true wheelies assertion whatever the hell that means doug rinckes drinckes tssc wlg nec co jp new zealand tssc ltd bmw r s bmw r indian a uh doug i don t know what school of thought your from but chain drive are much more efficient than shafties end of story period but i will give you that shafties are much less maintenance intensive ethan ethan bowerman dod cb sc nighthawk hey who cuts yer hair man nothing clears the mind quite cheech and chong like a maxed out tach and a a closed mouth contains no feet buried speedometer unknown me
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering sans hands in article apr cs cornell edu karr cs cornell edu david karr writes in article clarke bdrc bd com clarke bdrc bd com richard clarke writes so how do i steer when my hands aren t on the bars open budweiser in left hand camel cigarette in the right no feet allowed if i lean and the bike turns am i countersteering no the bars would turn only toward the direction of turn in no hands steering just in case the original poster was looking for a serious answer i ll supply one yes even when steering no hands you do something quite similar to countersteering basically to turn left you to a quick wiggle of the bike to the right first causing a counteracting lean to occur to the left it is a lot more difficult to do on a motorcycle than a bicycle though because of the extra weight ok so my motorcycle is heavy maybe yous isn t david
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion in article c t dsc well sf ca us rwert well sf ca us wrote i need some advice on having someone ride pillion with me on my ninja this will be the the first time i ve taken anyone for an extended ride read farther than around the block we ll be riding some twisty fairly bumpy roads the mines road mt hamilton loop for you sf bay areans this person is lbs and fairly small so i don t see weight as too much of a problem but what sort of of advice should i give her before we go my fiancee and i do quite a bit of sporty riding up i ll tell you what we ve found and the systems we ve worked out on starts accelerate much slower than usual it s tough for the rider to judge how scary fast acceleration is because we re holding onto something and leaning forward remember this on turns have her lean forward and at the same angle as you normally this means she isn t leaning at all it s very disconcerting to be leaned over and have your passenger leaning so that they re sitting straight up much balance is lost and this can be dangerous on slowing and stopping do so much slower than usual again it s tough for the rider to judge how scary fast deceleration is because we re holding onto something and leaning forward however you ll figure it out fast because braking too fast will shove the passenger forward into you which shoves you into the tank at an inopportune location generally have the passenger keep her knees against you and the bike not out wide this helps balance and gives her somegrip when you passenger is in fear she will squeeze her knees against you normally this means slow down and do it now turning so she leans with me but what else are there traditional signals for slow down or go faster or i hafta go pee etc we only have a couple signals slow down is her either tapping me on the back or slapping my helmet with all her might depends on the urgency of the matter turn here is done by her pointing in the direction of an exit this is also the sign for cool look at that i hafta pee is the same sign as turn here i m hungry is the same sign go faster is usually done by her jumping up and down on her pegs in glee i usually see slow down more often than go faster i really want this to be a positive experience for us both mainly so that she ll want to go with me again so any help will be appreciated the best thing to do before the ride is to talk to a riding buddy and pillion on his or her bike it s incredibly frustrating because you re in almost no control now multiply that feeling times ten because you as a rider know what your bike will do and your passenger will likely feel you re about to scrape hard parts all the time or lock up the brakes at any moment or go careening off the edge of a volcanic mountain etc pillioning yourself is good training to take somebody on your pillion pad also remember that it s much more draining and tiring to ride up than by yourself because you re concentrating on much more and in the zen of the moment less remember this pat loughery patlo microsoft com seattle wa dod ama vme dioc ksi vfr f nighthawk seca turbo for sale
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion in article c t dsc well sf ca us rwert well sf ca us bob wert writes i need some advice on having someone ride pillion with me on my ninja this will be the the first time i ve taken anyone for an extended ride read farther than around the block we ll be riding some twisty fairly bumpy roads the mines road mt hamilton loop for you sf bay areans unless she is really adventurous do not take her on this route for her first extended ride that s kinda like taking someone on a no show way speed star competition as their first skydive this person is lbs and fairly small so i don t see weight as too much of a problem but what sort of of advice should i give her before we go i want her to hold onto me rather than the grab rail out back and i ve heard that she should look over my shoulder in the direction we re turning so she leans with me but what else are there traditional if the ninja has adjustable suspension adjust it to a stiffer setting so you don t bottom out in bumpy curves tell her the cardinal rules are a never ever ever ever put her feet down not when you stop at a stop sign not when she thinks you re gonna crash never keep them on the pegs until you tell her to get off the bike b she is to hold onto your waist she should hold on tightly enough that she won t slide off the bike if you twist the throttle a bit and added bonus for you here she should keep as close to your butt as possible so quick stops don t make her slide into you and knock your balls up onto the gas tank you decide how best to word this c just stay perpendicular to the bike straight up in the seat don t lean your body into curves just go with the bike and stay perpendicular don t look over your shoulder remember at all times that you have a passenger on the back that means don t pop the clutch and try to corner and stop smoother than usual be aware that if you jump on the brake you re going to have the equivalent of a lb dead weight crashing into you from behind so be prepared for that make sure she pisses before the ride even if she says she doesn t have to go no anti women stuff here i have a tiny bladder myself remind her to look around while you re riding point to things of interest it makes the ride more enjoyable to her she won t get so focused on just looking at the back of your helmet and it gives her ample excuse to squeeze you to show she saw what you pointed at my wife and i tried the msf recommended look over the rider s shoulder in curves bit and it just didn t work the timing of her weight shift was unpredictable especially on the maxim because unlike the ninja the upright riding position really restricts the pillion s view of the road ahead next time i had her just remain perpendicular to the bike and i could hardly tell there was someone else on the bike in curves and she weighs substantially over lbs curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com hawk gt maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there is no justification for taking away individuals freedom in the guise of public safety thomas jefferson
rec.motorcycles	re bonding with a caged cop akelley oracle uucp alyn kelley writes but as he drove past me he actually turned all the way around in his car seat to see if i had noticed i nodded to him and smiled i can t for the life of me figure out why he was so friendly it s the dod license plate frame cops really like em either that or he mistook you for one of his friends possibly an off duty cop dave i need your clothes your boots and your motorcycle arnold schwarzenegger t
rec.motorcycles	re looking for movies w bikes knight riders has got to be one of the silliest movies i ve ever seen curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov v sabre meddle not in the afairs of wizards for it makes them soggy and hard to re light
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other in article apr rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes has anyone while driving a cage ever waved at bikers i get the urge but i ve never actually done it i did it once with a biker girlfriend in the car and she told me that i was stupid the rider wouldn t know why i was waving she s long gone let s see how many posts it takes for someone to selectively quote this article one curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov v sabre meddle not in the afairs of wizards for it makes them soggy and hard to re light
rec.motorcycles	re what octane jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes how do you know what kind of gas to buy depending on the compression ratio of your engine i heard ok but what kind of gas goes for what kind of compression i m asking this because i used to put in my hawk gt and the other day i changed because i wanted to see if there was a difference and i don t know if i m being subjective or what but it seems like the bike runs better run your bike on the lowest octane that it will run smoothly on higher octane fuel is not better than lower octane gas pick up the last american roadracing magazine there s a short article in there about octane and the misconceptions many people make about the subject look at your owners manual i believe it states is just fine erik astrup afm dod cbr rr cbr concours ninja this one goes to eleven nigel tufnel lead guitar spinal tap
rec.motorcycles	re bra bra brazing was for johs dhhalden no old nick the little devil wibbles tsk tsk tsk another newbie bites the dust eh they ll learn newbie eh slap yer credentials on the table pete that ll show him i m terribly sorry and so you damned well should be young whipper snapper it s wet kippers at ten paces if there s any repeat of this sort of thing now in keeping with the grand tradition of wreck moto let s mutate take your partners by the hand on tuesday morning i spent a couple of hours when i should have been working with a torch brazing bits of scrap metal over the biggest holes in yamadog s exhaust pipes s mazin what you can do with a couple of aa cells and a three volt bulb i stuck some gun gum into the smaller holes and bunged the pipes back onto the bike so last night i m on the way home when lo an bloody behold the sodding thing starts blowing again i check it out and the gas is escaping from around the clamp holding the number two pipe into the port as far as i can see it being somewhat hole of calcutta at the time the nuts are still there stop that bloody sniggering you at the back but the pipe is a bit loose this morning i go out to the bike and pull out the socket set to tighten up me nuts somebody give that spotty kid at the back a good slap round the back of the head and lo an bloody behold a bloody gen i find that the outer skin of the pipe has separated from the inner sleeve right at the clamp mating bevel so i stuff in a bit of baked beanz can and a bit more of mr holts very best gun gum and come to work late again so that i can ask of the oracle will a brazed joint hold that close to the exhaust port anybody tried it oh and if anybody can tell me what the differences are between a and a brazing rod made by gaz yup the camping folks surprised the marmalade outa me too in that place just off the isle of wight i d be eternally grateful twenty sodding quid for two rods and i don t even know what i m buying bloody kanji john little gaijin japan sun com sun microsystems atsugi japan
rec.motorcycles	re fj owners tankbag suggestions wanted in article apr rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes the nelson rigg bag has and the side ones can be used or not depending on the load using just the three is super convenient and the extra two are great for carrying beer concentrate bricks or reports written by overpaid consultants quit keeping us in suspense who sells this remarkable bag later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	yamaha xj h maxim for sale denver area message posted by for roomate bike is in good condition is black has miles mag wheels front disk rear drum good front tire new back tire o ring chain new battery new starter and has that laid back look bike runs real strong with all four carbs giving their best buyer gets a cover all weather lockable heatproof tank bag non magnetic can t take disks along otherwise cargo net manual bike has origional tool kit matching yamaha lock asking or best offer i would like to sell this soon so please call voice ack with any questions john silvia in area home work
rec.motorcycles	re type spesifications cb vfr gt etc in rec motorcycles cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes in article c sk d c p srgenprp sr hp com frankb sad hp com frank ball writes honda a v designates a v engine street bike vf for v vt for v twin so how about my honda hawk nt it s a twin but not called a vt that s because they took the old vt engine and stepped on it to make the plant for the hawk new twin or does that only fly for microsoft nt new technology i ve been at this too long today cheers victor dances with hawks johnson
rec.motorcycles	re re first bike and wheelies in rec motorcycles speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes buy an old cc dirt bike find a vacant field get owners permission and learn the basics when your done sell or trash the bike and move to the street speedy you ve got this all wrong when you re done buy a better dirt bike body armor decent boots and forget about the weenie street riding jeff deeney dod nctr xr shamu jld hpfcla fc hp com ama cohvco cb f llamaha dirt bike riding is perfectly safe i have the scars to prove it
rec.motorcycles	power loss under load of a honda cb t i have a honda cb t which for most of my purposes runs well however i expereince a severe power drop at cruising speeds under load that is on a mild upgrade mph in th or th i m lucky if i can hold speed if i try to add throttle much past rpm power drops drastically put simply under load the engine won t rev past rpm the top third half of the throttle range is dead standing still the engine runs fine up to red line k other phenomenology at about the point that power loss kicks in the engine becomes a little wavery that is at a steady throttle the engine speed goes up and down slightly the bike has about miles on it and is in good tune at least until it starts to balk i would appreciate any suggestions as to what s ailing the poor beast my thoughts run toward clogged jets and or improper spark advance i m hoping it s not something more drastic since the bike s not really worth the hassle of any major engine work thanks britt park britt cb iris stanford edu
rec.motorcycles	re help me adjust my tappits in article snz morgan demon co uk tony morgan demon co uk tony kidson wrote in article jcn lactose rice edu jcn rice edu writes and speaking of shims why would the clearance of the valves get smaller i e need the use of a thinner shim valve seat wear okay okay i forgot about that sheeesh jeff nichols rice university
rec.motorcycles	re so do any xxxx i mean police officers read this stuff in article apr iscnvx lmsc lockheed com jrlaf sgi msd lmsc lockheed com j r laferriere writes i was just wondering if there were any law officers that read this i have several questions i would like to ask pertaining to motorcycles and cops and please don t say get a vehicle code go to your local station or obvious things like that my questions would not be found in those places nor answered face to face with a real live in the flesh cop if your brother had a friend who had a cousin whos father was a cop etc don t bother writing in thanks well here goes after lurking for a long time i ll announce myself yes i m the enemy the enemy that also happens to ride an arrest me red vfr bike history as if this endears me to the dod honda xl high school kawasaki klr honda v sabre cornering by committee honda hawk gt proctologists designed this bike vfr i ll entertain questions but my answers will reflect georgia law and may not apply in your state p s anyone got a nomex suit for sale
rec.motorcycles	re traffic morons in article stafford stafford winona msus edu stafford vax winona msus edu john stafford writes in article c shd lh athena cs uga edu ahatcher athena cs uga edu allan hatcher wrote you can t make a citizens arrest on anything but a felony i m not sure that s true let me rephrase you can file a complaint which will bring the person into court as i understand it a citizens arrest does not have to be the physical detention of the person i think we just found the difference between a citizens arrest physical detention of a suspect and a report warrant better now john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	test ignore ignore
rec.motorcycles	re the best of times the worst of times in article txd able mkt com com txd esd com com tom dietrich writes mtrost convex com matthew trost writes in apr ttinews tti com paulb harley tti com paul blumstein writes turned out to be a screw unscrewed inside my mikuni hs you better check all the screws in that carb before you suck one into a jug and munge a piston or valve i ve seen it happen before what on a mikuni i m going through the exploded view of the mm flatslide on the ol sport the mm round slide on spike and the monster on my old norton in my mind and i can t for the life of me see a screw in any of them that if it came loose could get into a jug when they explode em all the screws fly away chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	re back breaker near hit in article r o tu menudo uh edu inde wv rosie uh edu writes i understand why you theoretically stop so far behind a car but can you really in actuality avoid such an incident suggestions if possible i split lanes even if you don t get all the way to the head of the line at least you won t rear ended i always worry more when i m in the lane at the front of the line and no one in behind me then you have to keep an eye on your mirrors i also get ready to pull a hard right just in case mike disclaimer these opiini h h damn h h q w q wq wq d x exit x q c quitbye ctrlaltdel q q logout save quit quit zz zzzzzz vi man vi l c e x i t help helpquit d d man help c c e help exit quit q ctrlshftdel hey what does stop l a d
rec.motorcycles	re vfr st owners get hidden feature in article c r b c world std com daved world std com dave t dorfman writes well the actual ergonomics of the switch make it appear to be a position switch but sure enough as deam expected when you balance the toggle switch in the center position both the high and low beams go on this provides a very nice light coverage of the road hmmmm i noticed sometime ago that i could do the same on my virago and since i don t read many schematics i didn t really think aobut it too much yes it does provide excellent coverage but i figured it would probably draw a little too much current i also figured that it was overlapped just to prevent a blank spot of no headlight are you saying that these switches are designed for the hi lo combination jay hamillton xv with more chrome than a harley hamiltoj handel cs colostate edu time to change the oil again dod and kotcm
rec.motorcycles	re zipper repairs was tankbag in article carlp frigg carlp frigg isc br com carl paukstis writes bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes yep it works like a charm i had the same problem after about years of constant use and i was thinking of seeing how much eclipse would want to install a new zipper but someone i think it was chuck karish suggested i try that trick it took a couple of tries to get the right amount of squish but it s been fine for about years since i squished it it should work for any of the nylon coil type zippers otoh i tried this on my hg concord jacket thursday night really i just made a tiny adjustment type of squeeze really is was your hg zipper the nylon coil type or the kind with molded plastic teeth i ve only tried it on the coiled nylon type and it doesn t take much squish to fix the problem i found i was overdoing it no broken parts but the zipper was too hard to pull so after spreading the zipper pull jaws again i tried with vice grips no not the usual grip of death technique i adjusted the closed vice grips so they were snug on the zipper jaws then released them and tightened the adjusting screw a bit a couple of iterations and i had just the right amount of zipper squish tm result i now know that noplace in spokane will even consider trying to repair a broken zipper closer thingy which must be a part which needs a tool to install i ve had two zipper pulls fail on my aerostich suit actually on the accessory ellipse and they sent me a few replacement pulls free of charge i don t know what brand of zippers hg uses but parts are available for ykk s plastic zippers replacement was pretty simple just break and remove the plastic knob at the top of the zipper that keeps the pull from coming off the top end slide on the new zipper pull then crimp on vice grips again a replacement zipper stop you might try fabric stores such and see if they sell replacement parts oh for what it s worth the coil type zippers on the eclipse tankbag are also ykk blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	re dogs in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes in article c pntm co cbnewsj cb att com car cbnewsj cb att com charles a rogers writes this tactic depends for its effectiveness on the dog s conformance to a psychological norm that may not actually apply to a particular dog i ve tried it with some success before but it won t work on a charlie manson dog or one that s really really stupid a large irish setter taught me this in my yard apparently his territory one day i m sure he was playing a game with me the game was probably kill the very angry neighbor before he can dispense the terrible punishment what a dog weighs lb maybe at max you can t handle it we were having a problem with instability in the universal gravitational constant that day the closer i got to those exposed fangs still dripping no doubt with the viscera of the last foolhardy experimenter cum canine psychology the bigger and heavier the dog appeared to become also recall that the distribution of the lb is one five pound jaw teeth operated by two lb muscles driven by a ounce brain possessing an instinctual heuristic composed of equal parts of bloodlust and ravening hunger the other lb is of course dog poop but that varies all over the place as the dog deposits it regularly on the painstakingly manicured and tended lawns of the dog s owner s neighbors whilst continuously replenishing its inexhaustible supply no doubt by consuming the likes of folks like me you have i presume thumbs grapple with it and tear it s head off my very thought at the time but as i looked down at these once formidable instruments of mayhem i realized they had become weak and atrophied by too many sedentary hours tapping away at my ergonomically correct crt keyboard there was only one option left i reached down to the toolbox near my car and grasped my craftsman ft lb torque wrench surely the bludgeon of dire necessity if ever there was one to my amazement and confusion the setter started shaking and rolling on the grass then leapt to its feet and vanished down the street still quivering and occasionally looking back at me seven at one blow i exclaimed flexing my new found biceps and brandishing my terrible weapon of invincibility as i stalked the now secure environs of my domicile it was only later that i found out what the dog apparently knew all along the wrench was defective would no longer measure torque accurately and sears wouldn t fix it or replace it what i had interpreted as fear and subservience were in fact unmitigated hilarity and contempt sheesh even a trained attack dog is no match for a human we have all the advantages exactly nobody can look quite as silly as we can chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering to know or not to know what is the question in article mjs zen sys uea ac uk mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes lotto husc harvard edu jerry lotto writes the understanding and ability to swerve was essentially absent among the accident involved riders in the hurt study the average rider does not identify that countersteering alone provides the primary input to effect motorcycle lean by themselves even after many years of practice i would agree entirely with these three paragraphs but did the hurt study make any distinction between an ability to swerve and a failure to swerve in most of the accidents and near accidents that i ve seen riders will almost always stand on the brakes as hard as they dare simply because the instinct to brake in the face of danger is so strong that it over rides everything else hard braking and swerving tend to be mutually exclusive manouvres did hurt draw any conclusions on which one is generally preferable apparently the instinct to brake in the face of danger isn t as strong as the instinct to freeze up and do nothing in the face of danger hurt found that a surprising number of accident involved motorcyclists hadn t used their brakes at all prior to impact i think the only way you ll ever use countersteering reliably and correctly in a crisis is to make it the only conscious method of directional control you ever use and to practice it constantly even when you have no need to do any turning if you follow me down a long straight and i seem to be wiggling back and forth randomly or suddenly without obvious need it s because i m practicing countersteering and avoiding imaginary obstacles directly in my path all of this practice may indeed be futile but if i have even milliseconds to react the most familiar tactic available and hopefully the most automatic will be countersteering the same logic applies to braking with the front brake of course chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	re fj owners tankbag suggestions wanted bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes in article apr ncsu edu martenm chess ncsu edu mar marten writes i am looking for a new tank bag now and i wondered if you as follow fj owners could make some suggestions as to what has and has not worked for you with the fj s large flat gas tank i d imagine that almost anything would work personally i m quite happy with my eclipse standard tank bag me too even after i bought the piece krauser k set now and then dk puts them on sale for bux or so to clear out inventory but they never seem to to go away they are the volkswagens of tank bags i guess btw the late paul o neill showed me a trick with a pair of pliers that will extend their life considerably when the zipper starts to separate behind the pull because of age and wear squash the pull body with the pliers just a bit to tighten it back up i would have tossed my bag three years ago but this fixed it up and kept it secure and reliable chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	re fortune guzzler barred from bars in article apr bnr ca npet bnr ca nick pettefar writes charles parr on the tue apr gmt wibbled in article apr bnr ca npet bnr ca nick pettefar writes if satan rode a bike cb would you stop to help him only if he was a true motorcyclist with the real riding attitude as you probably are aware there is a sure fire rec moto test for this attribute god would ride a vincent white lightning with rightous injection he d wear a one piece leather suit with matching boots helmet and gloves why you think s he s worried about road rash chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article wrs wslack uucp wrs wslack uucp bill slack writes various posts about shafties can t do wheelies no mike it is imposible due to the shaft effect the centripital effects of the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel to lift off the ground good point john a buddy of mine told me that same thing when i had my bmw r gs i dumped the clutch at rpm hey ito nly revved to or so and you know what he was right uh folks the shaft doesn t have diddleysquatpoop to do with it i can get the front wheel off the ground on my ferchrissake well just when you think nothing will strike at a bmw key fob ostrich feather dipped in silly putty and varnished solid lure somebody comes along and inhales it right up to the lead swivel there is a dog it s going to be pretty difficult to better worsen a trolling scheme this low though chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	re story in article csundh ursa csundh ursa calvin edu charles sundheim writes lynn pacesetter com lynn e hall writes lynn pacesetter com lynn e hall writes description of a pretty rowdy sounding party and still we wonder why they stereotype us erc whacha mean we ifin they whom ever they are want to stereotype me as one that likes to drink beer and watch lovely ladies display their beautiful bodies i like that stereotype if you were refering stereotype to infer a negative you noticed we didn t rape pillage or burn down the town we also left mucho bucks as in money with the town me thinks the town likes us least they said so lynn hall nos bros they bein themfolk who tend to compose fair piece of the population bein the ones that regard bikers as a loud irresponsible irreverent reprobate rabble doesn t sound like they attended though does it in fact if we riders need friends it sounds a lot like we might have a whole townfull from lynn s description especially if the same crowd gets invited back to party some more year after year sure you didn t rape and pillage it s a relief to know that you were such gentlemen but because you were not completely out of hand you justify your lesser indescretions some pretty distorted thinking i should say you seem to be one of very few bent out of shape over these lesser indiscretions if the towns people aren t ruffled by the indiscretions and the partyers aren t either maybe the indiscretions don t amount to anything more threatening or damaging than harmless good natured rowdiness among consenting adults the only thing that really bothered me about the description was the knee deep empty beer cans in the street but maybe the town had a plan to deal with that since they helped set up the party in the first place if i lived there and the bikers previous visits had established a record of mutual cooperation and good intentions i d certainly rather they stick around and party than go riding off into the night impaired and maybe get hurt or killed oh i m sorry i just noticed that you left mucho bucks as in money nevermind my criticism i was out of line i forgot that when one leaves mucho bucks as in money their behavior is permissable perhaps even justified if it doesn t hurt anyone and all the parties to the party benefit and consider the entire activity to be benign and harmless then who needs to permit or justify it you why do you need to do that keep in mind that themfolks are the ones that could give a when a biker gets killed when their elected officials institute further draconian legislation helmet laws gun controls etc the ones that don t respect our rights on the roads because we do not respect theirs all the rest of the time ironically these particular townsfolk probably are in the minority that don t happen to fit the stereotype you describe they ve developed a friendly long term mutually beneficial relationship with a group of motorcyclists and aren t as burdened with mc ignorance as is the general population because of it need i continue if such a need exists it surely must come from within so continue to wear your stigma as a badge but the next time you are whining about them and the effect of their values on yours remember that it was probably the behavior of self righteous wusses like myself that kept them at bay for this long well you got the self righteous wusses part right anyway chuck rogers car torreys att com you might have heard i run with a dangerous crowd we ain t too pretty we ain t too proud we might be laughin a bit too loud ah but that never hurt no one you know that only the good die young
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article wayne orwig worwig atlantaga ncr com wayne orwig atlantaga ncr com wayne orwig writes is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive no mike it is imposible due to the shaft effect the centripital effects of the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel to lift off the ground well my last two motorcycles have been shaft driven and they will wheelie the rear gear does climb the ring gear and lift the rear which gives an odd feel but it still wheelies feeding frenzy ah tis april in rec moto and the newbies are bitin catch all you want we ll make more chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	re paint jobs in the uk in article zen sys uea ac uk mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes lisa alex com lisa rowlands writes can anyone recommend a good place for reasonably priced bike paint jobs preferably but not essentially in the london area try dream machine i ve seen a few examples of their work and it looks pretty good they re in the midlands though dream machine quality ain t what it used to be kinetic art did some great paint jobs on bimotas don t know if they are still around roger collier uk sun com o o o o sun microsystems h coventry england u dod gsxr l keeper of the gsxr list
rec.motorcycles	re please tell me they re not permenant scratches catherine barbara saum cs andrew cmu edu writes is there a way to wax out a dull finish minor scrathes while passngering on my fiance s bandit my hip pack rubbed against the tail and left a nasty dull finish and teeny scratches is there a way to get rid of these buff them out wax them out help car accessory shops here sell stuff called t cut which is a very fine cutting paste for paint and this will remove the dull finish and minor acratches it will also remove all the traffic film and stuff that you probably don t realise is there and give your paintwork its original lustre and shine it can sometimes react badly with metallic paint though so try it out carefully before going to town with the stuff afterwards apply wax polish and all will be well again btw don t confuse t cut with the cutting paste used for grinding in valves the principle s the same but the coarseness is vastly different mike
rec.motorcycles	bmw frame set up for sale for sale or trade bmw r us frame and misc converted to earles fork the package includes frame swingarm and earles fork final drive rear fender front fender large tank steel wheels laced w ss spokes one new rim one ec used rim all brackets brake hdware footrests etc the colour scheme used is the original bmw optional bristol grey items not painted are earles rigid section needs straightening this rigid section was bent when i received it not from being mounted to the r us frame earles swingarm and the headlight shell i have the paintthat was used and can finish the non painted items if desired the striping was done by holt design not included engine gearbox electrics seat this is a clean and tidy project the project was terminated due to lack of time and the r hp engine that was to be used was transferred to another project i would prefer to sell the package as whole i am negotiable as to what can be included in the package i will not separate any of the painted items i am willing to take spares in trade e mail any inquiries thanx carl
rec.motorcycles	re buying a suzuki gs e advice wanted awhite ssc sas upenn edu andrew white writes hello net readers i am looking for a little net advice i ve got my eye on a suzuki gs e at a local dealer the bike s got miles on it and looks in mint condition dealer is asking a bit less than good price i don t have access to a blue book and am too lazy to go to the library dealer is letting me test ride it this week blue book says wholesale retail sounds like you are getting a pretty fair price assuming it is in nice condition andrew white univ of pennsylvania edu breath awhite mcneil sas upenn edu dod honda sabre v nick coburn dod ama cbr cbr coburnn spot colorado edu
rec.motorcycles	re touring the southwest bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes kim fatcity cts com kim sharpe writes a few of us are touring sothwest utah in mid june to see the canyons do any of you have some helpful hints on where to stay or things to see do avoid plans are to see bryce zion arches is the grand close at that point or is an additional trip required well it s closer to bryce than bryce is to arches i d spend a lot of time studying the maps there s a lot of you can t get there from here in that area you might want to hit the grand canyon on the way up from california loop around to canyonlands moab arches and then back down towards bryce zion on the way home make sure you ride us between capitol reef and bryce it s been on a number of top roads lists highway is a great road be sure to stop by the anasazi sp village museum near boulder creek interesting lifestyle the views of dixie national forest are stunning karen black
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering to know or not to know what is the question lotto laura harvard edu jerry lotto writes yes it was specifically the ability or understanding of the technique which was absent how did hurt measure the ability of riders to swerve
rec.motorcycles	re so do any police ossifers read this stuff in article c u dl a v athena cs uga edu ahatcher athena cs uga edu allan hatcher writes well here goes after lurking for a long time i ll announce myself yes i m the enemy sorry allan but unless you happen to be the guy who watches t v while he s driving a white toyota on route between atsugi and hiratsuka you re not even close to being the enemy john little gaijin japan sun com sun microsystems atsugi japan
rec.motorcycles	re black reflector tape i got a sample of black reflector material maybe from conspicuity it is black but reflects silver if the angle of incidence is shallow whoever it was i got it from sold sells kits that fit bmw and other brands of luggage and fenders don t know what i did with the sample the kits seemed too expensive as i recall henry prange biker reflectionologist physiology iu sch med blgtn dod bmwmoa gsi ride r gs rx conv cage explorer cage we all lie cheat and steal mostly a little sometimes a lot relax
rec.motorcycles	re daytona in article c ytzo news dtc hp com jjb dtc hp com jim brewer writes russell had major backmarker problems before getting onto the banking and the backmarker was chuck graves i believe
rec.motorcycles	re why i wanted police officers to answer my posting in article viking ponderous cc iastate edu viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes how to get a verbal warning for in a poppy cock this story is obviously a complete fabrication and i ll show you why in ames there is a road that leads to the little town of this establishes that the story takes place in iowa gilbert gilbert has one stop light if that tells you something having just gotten the bike back together i thought i d take it for a short ride and check things out heading out of town i went into the twisties at a slow pace just under the speed limit in iowa come on now dan how dumb do you think we are you could have at least thrown in a llama or tennis ball reference hell you didn t even get the speed right dean ps dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington rd bedford ma kotnml kotb the road is my shepherd and i shall not stop vfr f sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited
rec.motorcycles	re dod pins not in article apr skcla monsanto com mpmena skcla monsanto com writes bad news right after we placed our order the company upped its minimum order for manufacturing we got in under the wire with an order of or so pins but as a result of the low number of pins we were relegated to the we ll get to it in between other runs bin as a result it seems that it may be another or weeks how about the name and number of the pin place i would think that or so people calling to bitch about why orders placed after ours are getting done first might speed things along dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington rd bedford ma kotnml kotb the road is my shepherd and i shall not stop vfr f sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited
rec.motorcycles	re vfr st owners get hidden feature in article c r b c world std com daved world std com dave t dorfman writes i was enjoying lunch this saturday at foodies in milford nh with an assortment of other nedod folks when dean cookson yes he has not left the country yet mentioned that the wiring diagram of the vfr shows that the light switch is a three position switch my cb does it too the switch continuity section of the wiring diagram looks something like this hl l h x x low x x x n x x high dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington rd bedford ma kotnml kotb the road is my shepherd and i shall not stop vfr f sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited
rec.motorcycles	re wanted uk bmw r insurance tips in article apr infodev cam ac uk idb cus cam ac uk i d benham writes hi i m now in the market for buying a bmw the ideal would be an r rs but i d be interested to here of any r for sale age is not a problem i m more interested in a good example without a massive amount of miles and one which has been well maintained as i intend to keep it well and for some time i would also like to know if anyone has any sound advice as regards to insurance yr old licence for years no accidents claims convictions am i old enough to get bmw owners club insurance yet or will i have to wait until next year ian future beemer owner article repeated due to large amount of other articles since st sent
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax in article c itu dn myrddin imat com nelson seahunt imat com michael nelson writes in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes spray the chain wax onto the rollers and sideplates occassionally and rust will not be a problem i did regularly and it was michael maybe you had accidentally sealed in some water i cleaned my chain thoroughly took it on a short ride to dry it off and heat it up a bit and the paraffin sank deep into the rollers and formed a good seal on the outside no rust but then again i live in tucson b o d y i s t h e b i k e dod asphaug hindmost lpl arizona edu kawi zephyr erik asphaug bmw r gs s o u l i s t h e r i d e r
rec.motorcycles	changing oil on virago was yamaha vs honda opinions aa freenet carleton ca lloyd carr writes in a previous article phj remus rutgers edu p ju says nuet ke pts mot com keith nuetzman x p writes the brake pedal c c i ve pretty much decided never to get this particular model unless he or someone else wants to change the oil filter for me compared to the minute change he was used to for his honda this is just a design flaw oversight in my eyes sure don t know what bike was being worked on but it sure wasn t a virago i ve owned both the and and you can do the filter change in about mins and nothing has to be removed well watching several denizen s dismantle laurie s virago in an attempt to change the oil at the ride n feed a few years back was a pretty funny site surely with the combined wisdom of all these folks they weren t doing things the hard way were they paul thompson apple computer
rec.motorcycles	re back breaker near hit inde wv rosie uh edu writes hear screeching tires i dart my eyes to my mirrors and realize it s the moroon flying up right behind me in my panic i pop my clutch and stall the bike luckily the guy stops a foot behind my rear wheel i understand why you theoretically stop so far behind a car but can you really in actuality avoid such an incident suggestions the experience you describe is why i don t like to sit with my bike in gear i figure there s a chance that i ll be startled in some way and stall my bike and i figure this is more likely than the chance that i ll be unable to escape some situation because of the extra time needed to put the bike in gear so i concentrate on avoiding situations rather than making split second evasive manuvers i split lanes so i m not at the end of the line unfortunately this is not legal in most of the country if i can t split perhaps there isn t room then i will stop near one side of the lane so i have an easy escape and leave my bike in gear until the next car has stopped i watch in my mirrors in the mean time to make sure it will whether i really would have time to move should a car fail to stop i haven t had to find out yet some cars have an annoying habbit of racing up behind you before braking heavilly so it can be hard to tell if they are planning to brake or not so in summary position yourself for an easy exit and then watch your mirrors until it s all clear paul thompson apple computer
rec.motorcycles	re electricty in article mimsy umd edu leavitt cs umd edu mr bill writes maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes nh trying to figure out a way to put a halogen beam on my cb t are nh there any easy ways to do this i e a slip in bulb replacement no the honda s employed a sealed beam which was not interchangeable with anything else so far as i could ever tell i ve owned two s over the years and that was always one of my biggest nits i m not sure how far standardisation went but on two of my bikes the gs b and i think the gt m i was able to pop a cibie insert directly into the original housing held in by those roughly w shaped springs the inserts used w halogen bulbs and were great although mr bill later indicates that this may be too much of a drain on your charging system ivan reid paul scherrer institute ch ivan cvax psi ch gsx f rg wd si you porsche me pass dod
rec.motorcycles	re first bike in rec motorcycles james leo belliveau jbc andrew cmu edu writes i am a serious motorcycle enthusiast without a motorcycle and to put it bluntly it sucks i really would like some advice on what would be a good starter bike for me i do know one thing however i need to make my first bike a good one because buying a second any time soon is out of the question i am specifically interested in racing bikes cbr f gsx r i know that this may sound kind of crazy considering that i ve never had a bike before but i am responsible a fast learner and in love responsible and in love i believe that s a contradiction in terms unless you re really brave read reckless a cc sport bike will go way faster than you dare for at least your first year of riding getting more than that really is overkill as you ll never even want to use it the following bikes can be bought and repaired cheaply are easy for a novice to manage and are plenty high performance kawasaki ex honda vf interceptor suzuki gs e the mph time of the ex at full throttle is way sooner than you re ready for it with something as small as a you d probably be wishing for more power pretty quickly unless it s a tzr or rgv now i m not saying that you re certain to kill yourself immediately with a f or a gsxr plenty of people have started riding on those bikes and done just fine what i am saying is that it s a waste of money and a waste of perfectly good plastic when you drop the thing learning how to balance while stopping you ll never get the throttle more than half open anyway so why spend the extra bucks chris
rec.motorcycles	re for johs dhhalden no last pky fmg bt co uk pete young writes nick pettefar npet bnr ca wrote tsk tsk tsk another newbie bites the dust eh they ll learn newbie sorry to disappoint you but as far as the internet goes i was in baghdad while you were still in your dads bag based on your previous postings apparently devoid of humour sarcasm wit or the apparent capacity to walk and chew gum at the same time i assumed you were serious mea culpa you cannot be serious personally i think nick s postings are the best thing on wreck moto
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other jlevine rd hydro on ca the angel levine writes has anyone while driving a cage ever waved at bikers i get the urge but i ve never actually done it no but i ve driven my cage to the bike park thinking i was riding the bike
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax in article c itu dn myrddin imat com nelson seahunt imat com michael nelson writes in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes spray the chain wax onto the rollers and sideplates occassionally and rust will not be a problem i did regularly and it was interesting all i can say is that i haven t seen any wear in the miles i ve used the stuff on the ninja and the bike stays soooo clean i ll check back again in a few thousand more miles while we re on the subject whereinthehell can i find a x endless chain other than the dealer no rivet type master links are not acceptable later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re please tell me they re not permenant scratches in article sfppisk wb hpo e andrew cmu edu catherine barbara saum cs andrew cmu edu writes while passngering on my fiance s bandit my hip pack rubbed against the tail and left a nasty dull finish and teeny scratches is there a way to get rid of these buff them out wax them out help has he realised yet or are you hoping to fix it before he does if you re planning to use t cut be careful sunlight fades paint and t cut removes the surface layer so if its a older bike or very sunny where you live then the colour of the t cut panel wont match the rest of the bike bob bob morley pipex public ip exchange dod cambridge science park ogrite milton road cbr fl cambridge cb wa ely district mcc england
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article megatek com randy megatek com randy davis writes in article apr asl dl nec com drinckes tssc wlg nec co jp writes course the only people who seem to be acting smug now probably have chain final drive which as we all know is less efficient and has higher maintenance and probably didn t know the answer at the start of the thread when did you go out and change the laws of physics according to some numbers i used to see bandied around shaft drive is on the order of efficient while chain drive is closer to seems to me that this makes chain drive more efficient hmmmmm and granted shaft has a lot less maintenance which is fine if you don t mind less performance randy davis email randy megatek com zx pilot uunet ucsd megatek randy ok and you regularly ride your bike to within of it s maximum capability note any idiot can go flat out on a bike most of them do anyway efficient at what a shaft drive is a much more efficient solid erect lump of metal than a floppy flaccid unsatisfying chain doug rinckes drinckes tssc wlg nec co jp new zealand tssc ltd bmw r s bmw r indian a
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article unbvm csd unb ca c a c a unb ca writes in article hpcc corp hp com gharriso hpcc corp hp com graeme harrison writes hpcc rec motorcycles xlyx vax cit cornell edu pm apr is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive mike terry virago i ve seen em but the real question is can one do a wheelie on a lead wing if so how high would the front wheel be off the ground wheelies on lead wings are possible but they ain t easy or so my hhmmm what is the relation great uncle several times removed tells me as for how high how high do you want em modulation isn t exactly the easiest thing in the world or so says a guy years old well apparently once you get past about inches all the luggage shifts back in the panniers the passenger slides back and the dog ends up hanging onto the top rack and they go all the way over until it s flat on it s ass with the front wheel straight up in the sky impressive but hard on the tail lights doug rinckes drinckes tssc wlg nec co jp new zealand tssc ltd bmw r s bmw r indian a
rec.motorcycles	re happy easter in article c u li em dcs qmw ac uk davide dcs qmw ac uk dave edmondson writes lotus looks set for a management buyout gm weren t happy that the elan was late and too pricey if they can write off the elan development costs the may be able to sell them for a sensible price i read that gm wants to keep the design part of lotus but lose the car production and i seem to remember that the main problem with the elan was caused by gm s insistence that the elan be re designed significantly for the us market which caused major design production headaches i think there is a legal clause in the rr name regardless of who owns it it must be a british company owner i e ba can sell the company but not the name kevinh hasler ascom ch i don t believe that ba have anything to do with rr it s a seperate company from the rr aero engine company it s vickers who own rolls royce cars quite true brain fade on my part david edmondson davide dcs qmw ac uk kevinh hasler ascom ch
rec.motorcycles	want to borrow rent a bike in boston this summer this summer july my wife michelle and i will be in boston attending my brother s wedding after the wedding we are planning to motor up to bar harbor maine to visit some relatives for a few days our summer would be made if we could find a bike or bikes to borrow or rent to ride up to bar harbor and back here s some important details i ve been riding for years my own bikes for the past years michelle has been riding for the past years her own bikes i ve only been involved in one accident which was caused by a cage driver running a stop sign i currently own a bmw r michelle owns a yamaha virago we prefer cruising over racing we ve toured a fair amount we re both licensed and insured and we re nice people so if anyone has a bike or bikes but the second one would have to be a virago or something else with an equally low seat that they would be willing to loan us for days in july michelle and i would be eternally grateful in addition to our friendship you would also have the use of our bikes should you ever pass through minneapolis in exchange we would be happy to take you and a guest out for dinner and an evening of wild bike stories or we might even be willing to cough up some money for improvements to the bike s like new tires or something also any information about bike rentals in the boston area would be greatly appreciated thanks scott brandt
rec.motorcycles	re your opinion and what it means to me dsc jfs nmrdc nmrdc nnmc navy mil jim small writes in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes since the occurance i ve paid many dollars in renumerance taken the drunk class and yes listened to all the self righteous assholes like yourself that think your so above the rest of the world because you ve never had your own little dd suaree some of us aren t that fucking stupid you cock sucking asshole that s why we haven t had our own little dd suaree i m soo impressed that you ve had to spend your own precious little dollars to make up for your own stupid act now go fuck off friends killed by drunk driving assholes like andress infante children friends orphaned by drunk driving assholes like infante now who s the self righteous asshole you weak willed fuck head i hate the b the b can bite me jim i hope you never drive or ride when you have been drinking you have been taking prescription drugs you didn t get enough sleep the night before you are upset with your girlfriend you just didn t feel like your brain was talking to your body you think you are at laguna seca and want to break the lap record any of the above situations have the potential for harm read death people make mistakesif you have never endangered someone else by driving a vehicle in an unsafe manner then go right ahead and bitch about mr infante misuse of a motor vehicle otherwise think about your own driving responsibilities i am sorry about the loss of your friends but it could just as well been the idiot who bought a volvo because he has problems falling asleep at the wheel eric simmon eeel nist gov
rec.motorcycles	squids and dealers yesterday a friend had asked me to accompany him to a local motorcycle dealer it has been a while since he last rode years and i myself have never bought a new bike from a dealer what follows is an experience of that visit and of an observation of squildly behavior by other customers and or sales personel background i ride with a group of friends who mainly are into cruiser type bikes my friend was hell bent on getting an intruder and had seen a few used ones he wanted to see what the new ones were going for so we happened upon a dealer that sold both suzuki and yamaha the place was fairly busy so we browsed a bit we happened upon a few intruders most of which had sold signs on my friend had been bitten well the salesdroid appeared and as my friend started chewing the fat i moseid on outside the next thing i know i see or sport bikes pull in i could stereo type the type of riders backward ball hat oakley iq but i won t well they went inside i didn t think much of it i figured to each his own i went back in to see if the salesdroid had his fangs firmly implanted into my friends back when i noticed the hormone gang talking to other salesdroids managers lot s of laughter jokes etc no big deal here is the part that concerned me the hg and those shop personel that were not busy with customers went back out where said hg members fired up their rides and did the obligatory reving up of those beasts at this point one decided to see how much rubber a katana could deposit in the drive squids i thought to myself but i was appalled that the salesdroids manager not only condoned this behavior but encourged it to the point were they were betting how long he could keep it up and egged him on to pull a wheely as he rode off onto a busy street around rush hour the girl that was riding pillion on another bike seemed rather hormonal about this display and urged her pilot to quickly catch up the others followed making sure there kerkers could be heard as well as felt i felt embarassed at this point to be a motorcyclist i felt the eyes of those in cages witnessing this display then glancing over to the dealers lot and damning all those on two wheels needless to say my friend felt a little uncomfortable and we left i will now turn off my frustration and go ride peacefully to clear my anger i only hope that the cop who is following me home has an open mind and doesn t associate me with them btw i can t afford a new bike
rec.motorcycles	bike vacation in the states this summer i m going to use my vacation drivin riding through the states and i do have some questions that i would like to post here since i m from norway i was wondering how much does it cost to rent a bike in the states i m probarly going to the san fransisco san jose area the ride around i think as you might have noticed i still haven t made any plans so if you know about places i ought to visit please e mail me khool wanna be a dod hangarond db bih no karstein holen since i hurt my pendulum my life is all erratic my parrot who was cordinal is now transmitting static the carpet died a palm collapsed the cat keeps doing poo the only thing that keeps me sane is talking to my shoe my shoe
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in article unisql uucp ray unisql uucp ray shea writes in article apr megatek com randy megatek com writes perhaps dwi in lousiana is confined to liquor everything in louisiana is related to liquor eating sleeping walking talking church state life death and everything in between how dare you make such an accusation there are many sober non drinkers in this state if we wern t so busy unloading the beer truck for the week end i might just come up that and have a talk wit you b dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines hey where did they go you don t think naahh
rec.motorcycles	re wing ding wing ding xv will take place in louisville kentucky from june june for more info or to register contact gwwra p o box phoenix az tel duncan sterling buffalo wam umd edu gt l kh a ca k university of maryland yeeehaaa slim pickens in dr strangelove college park md strokes are quicker than anonymous
rec.motorcycles	re help me adjust my tappits in rec motorcycles sheppamj sun soe clarkson edu matthew sheppard writes all our local experts say it s the tappits that need some adjusting so i am soon to attempt that i would like any advice anyone had i do not have a shop manual but have read about the procedure in chiltons and in a few other places is there anything i need to be particularaly carful of any problems anyone else has encountered i would stongly recommend a factory service manual and if you are not an experienced machanic then get a chiltons or haynes sp also make sure the bike has cooled at least hours since being run read the books and if you have more questions you could mail me also be very careful when tightening valve cover bolts they take very little torque and breaking one is disaster rich sturges falls church va
rec.motorcycles	zx jetting what jetting do you recommend for a zx with standard mufflers instead of the standard one idle main cheers manuel arrevola velasco e mail manolo taf fundesco es fundesco zx calle alcala dr s madrid dod tel don t waste your time express it
rec.motorcycles	borderline in article apr sue cc uregina ca franks hercules cs uregina ca derek franks writes i was wondering if anyone on the net knows where when the wing ding is if so would you please e mail post the info i ve never been to one and have some free time this summer and am considering attending anyone else vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv vvvvvvvvvv this is my first post so no dod aspencade nd one getting close there o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o rob castro email rdc cunixf cc columbia edu live for today kz ltd phone for today you live dod nyc new york new york usa rc tm
rec.motorcycles	law order dod anyone catch the tv show law order last night at least here in nyc they the law enforcement people needed to catch a member of dod department of doom for inflicting a computer virus in a hospital s mainframe which ended up killing two people because wrong amounts of medication were given to them anyhow is department of doom on the list o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o rob castro email rdc cunixf cc columbia edu live for today kz ltd phone for today you live dod nyc new york new york usa rc tm
rec.motorcycles	re looking for movies w bikes in article cassidy elan rowan edu cassidy elan rowan edu kyle cassidy writes in article csundh ursa csundh ursa calvin edu charles sundheim writes i am assembling info for a film criticism class final project man every time this thread comes up i start jumping up and down screaming easy wheels easy wheels but to date it seems like i m the only one who s ever seen this it s absolutely hysterical basic plot is this reporter searching for a ring of babysnatchers is blow off the road by a very hot gang of babe bikers in leather he is rescued from his wrecked car in the desert by a xtian gospal biker band lead by an ex viet nam vet with a steel plate in his head that gives him visions from time to time they soon discover that the gang o babes is kidnapping children to be raised by wolves the reasoning behind this is complex and they set out to stop them and restore justice and order to the world it is one of the funniest movies i have ever seen in my life kyle cassidy cassidy rowan edu fire all of your guns at once dod i actually saw this movie about three months ago but it wasn t called easy wheels it was something else that escapes me at the moment but i did rent it from blockbuster video and it was a hoot in the same class as plan from outer space jim groh groh sig cs fsu edu dod hog new improved xlh fxr xlh xlh smaller sig
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes has anyone while driving a cage ever waved at bikers i get the urge but i ve never actually done it yup do it whenever i am in the cage which is not often if its riding weather ie no snow i find arm out and down and kinda finger wave works best for sport bikes and arm out up works best for harleys similar to how i wave when i am on the bike let s see how many posts it takes for someone to selectively quote this article yah mean like i get the urge but i ve never actually done it done what why jody we would never ever even dream of assuming that a young lady of such refined breeding and taste would even consider such things i mean some matters do not even have to be discussed by civilized beings but in confidence just between the two of us not even once or perhaps got excited thinking about it i know that i do bj bradw newbridge com no sig no plan no clue dod
rec.motorcycles	kaw kz owners tankbag stuff i was just wondering what kind brand name etc would be best on this bike thanks for your advice jbourgui ucs indiana edu
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes interesting all i can say is that i haven t seen any wear in the miles i ve used the stuff on the ninja and the bike stays soooo clean on a related note since ups lost my chain wax and i m still using pj goo i found some great stuff to clean chain spooge of wheels it s called goo gone and cleaned the spooge off my rear wheel faster than the simple green cleaned the bug guts off my headlight wonderful stuff i recommend that we officially delcare it a dod wonder spooge tm product dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington rd bedford ma kotnml kotb the road is my shepherd and i shall not stop vfr f sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited
rec.motorcycles	re help me adjust my tappits jeff nichols jcn rice edu wrote and speaking of shims why would the clearance of the valves get smaller i e need the use of a thinner shim because the valves recede into the cylinder head faster than the shims cams wear down frank ball ur m frankb sad hp com work hewlett packard fax home valley house drive it xt seca f pl rohnert park ca kc wug law ama dod i m the nra
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax in article apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes i found some great stuff to clean chain spooge of wheels it s called goo gone and cleaned the spooge off my rear wheel faster than the simple green cleaned the bug guts off my headlight wonderful stuff i recommend that we officially delcare it a dod wonder spooge tm product i think you can get that at most head shops i m not kidding although it seems more appropriate for them to be selling simple green bmwr gs erik asphaug
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher writes in article zen sys uea ac uk mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes ed all of us that argue about gyroscopes etc throughly understand ed the technique of countersteering me including all the ones who think that they countersteer all the way me through a corner ed well all the way through a decreasing radius corner anyway maybe they are riding around an ever decreasing circle of lies which eventually leads to the truth me the official line here though i do have my doubts about it is that the me front brake is applied first followed by the rear brake the idea being me that you avoid locking up the rear after weight transfer takes place if that s the official line taught in those rider education classes you were refering to that also don t teach countersteering i have to question the quality of the classes me too though unfortunately the official line is the one that you have to adhere to if you want to get a full licence the examiner s guidelines are laid down by the government and the basic rider education courses have no choice but to follow them it surprises me that none of the rider groups here either mag or the bmf make much noise about the fact that the riding test requires you to ride three feet from the kerb all the time in order to pass that the front brake must be applied before the rear that you have to keep looking over your shoulder all the time instead of just when it is justified there s probably a few more too which i can t think of for the moment if the riding test could be rejigged a bit to include more of the real world survival skills and less of the woefully simplistic crap that it contains now then the accident figures would imho reduce still further don t think we should include countersteering knowledge in our test though
rec.motorcycles	re vfr st owners get hidden feature cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes in article c r b c world std com daved world std com dave t dorfman writes i was enjoying lunch this saturday at foodies in milford nh with an assortment of other nedod folks when dean cookson yes he has not left the country yet mentioned that the wiring diagram of the vfr shows that the light switch is a three position switch my cb does it too the switch continuity section of the wiring diagram looks something like this hl l h x x low x x x n x x high and my cx too i first thought it was the wiring diagram that didn t fit my machine dean jb
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax wheelies in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes i bought it i tried it it is truly the miracle spooge my chain is lubed my wheel is clean after km i would like to offocially nominate maxima chain wax as another official tm dod product of choice dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	re posted gif of bmw r s if any would care to see any more close ups or different angles i can post others to a b p also i would be happy to submit one to cerritos if someone wants to write me and tell me how i would prefer a picture with you in it since most motorcycles don t post and are rather similar looking i e all r s s are more alike than they are different it is the people that are ultimately more interesting from archive policy txt if you already have a picture in some machine readable format gif preferred you can ftp it to cerritos edu account anonymous password incoming binary mode and notify me by mail or mail it uuencoded to tanner cerritos edu please include a one or two line description for inclusion in aaareadme txt btw i have charlie smith s pictures available sea bass sears scs cunixb cc columbia edu dod stanley id interestingly i ve been to stanley id by motorcycle nice little town nice road getting there bruce bruce tanner x tanner cerritos edu cerritos college norwalk ca dod nomad
rec.motorcycles	help on uk law please greetings all can anyone let me know status of uk law about riding motorcycles i used to ride one about years ago and never took my dot test one of a whole list of things i wished i had done when i was young but i have passed my car driving test i now travel from littlehampton to brighton every day and i m getting pissed off with the traffic road works i thinking about getting a cc bike don t laugh just to get streetwise and to take my test then to get a bigger one to cc now i have been told i don t have to do the cbt but what will i have to do to get a full licence thanks in advanced leigh leigh dodd engineering and applied science eaps university of sussex brighton bn qh uk phone ext fax janet leighd uk ac susx eaps internet leighd eaps susx ac uk
rec.motorcycles	personal problems was re so do any police ossifers read in article ltgnt innfpq earth cs utexas edu mcguire cs utexas edu tommy marcus mcguire writes i can t haul my big dic around on my bike or is it a boast john little gaijin japan sun com sun microsystems atsugi japan
rec.motorcycles	re touring the southwest in article apr dsd es com bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes make sure you ride us between capitol reef and bryce it s been on a number of top roads lists did they ever put in any gas stations on us i rode through there in skipped a fillup at bryce canyon and rode miles before seeing a gas station at torrey awesome road i recall riding up a narrow ridge above feet bruce bruce tanner x tanner cerritos edu cerritos college norwalk ca dod nomad
rec.motorcycles	re please tell me they re not permenant scratches in a previous article mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith says catherine barbara saum cs andrew cmu edu writes is there a way to wax out a dull finish minor scrathes while passngering on my fiance s bandit my hip pack rubbed against the tail and left a nasty dull finish and teeny scratches is there a way to get rid of these buff them out wax them out help okay here s what to do get a drill and a sanding disk use say a disk and go at it at a very low rpm if you don t have a drill try coarse steel wool and brake fluid dot has an uncanny knack for removing any paint imperfections oh i m not responsible for misuse or miapplication of either of these techniques dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	re re well blow me down yuk yuk yuk in article c bt wuvmd wustl edu brad thone c bt wuvmd writes if you haven t done it before it can be dangerous it takes some getting used to read ed s list yep if ed s list is over degrees the wind s too strong to ride ivan reid paul scherrer institute ch ivan cvax psi ch gsx f rg wd si american degrees not european dod
rec.motorcycles	re black reflector tape in article rckk inngub cronkite central sun com doc webrider central sun com writes a few months ago in one the the motorcycle mags there was an article that mentioned reflector tape that was supposed to be available thru bmw the idea was that the tape would look black in sunlight and reflect in other colors at night to has anyone come across this from bmw or any other source terry mccandlish president of my local bmw club buckeye beemers sells this type of tape it comes as a strip approximately x and can be cut to sizes needed you can call terry at columbus ohio arnie
rec.motorcycles	re your opinion and what it means to me in article catnip berkeley ca us bandy catnip berkeley ca us andrew scott beals kc sss writes infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes since the occurance i ve paid many dollars in renumerance taken the drunk class and yes listened to all the self righteous assholes like yourself that think your so above the rest of the world because you ve never had your own little dd suaree the devil made me do it yeah i found beelzebub inside a worm yeah that s it actually it was vodka gordon s if i remember correctly i didn t even buy it of course that s probably the reason i drank so much of it that night never again andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in article jnmoyne moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes in article r qeb k sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher wrote a bill breezed through the nc house to lower the intoxification level from to it faces stiff opposition in the senate recently the highway patrol took a few of the opposition senators out and gave them some shots and when they hit put them on a course dodging cones they failed and will probably change their votes as a result did they try to do the course before having a few drinks i don t see a senator that has is fat but driven around in a limo being a good driver no mater how many drinks he has had before jnm yeah really no shit like that jerk loch faircloth that couldn t win an election as a democrat so he switches to republican the year before this past election and takes terry sanford out with his bitch and moan campaigning typical of nc senate house gubner races i swear i d kick jesse helms in the head if i ever got the chance maybe then he d get a fucking clue as to how the rest of the world lives andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re why i wanted police officers to answer my posting you really expect a cop to answer these honestly first you gotta expect a cop to be honest that s another story andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article stafford stafford winona msus edu stafford vax winona msus edu john stafford writes in article wrs wslack uucp wrs wslack uucp bill slack wrote uh folks the shaft doesn t have diddleysquatpoop to do with it i can get the front wheel off the ground on my ferchrissake the statement above is true to the spirit of the list because it is a false statement misinformation that s the spirit bill my will do wheelies because it s a chain drive model wow is that custom made i wish i could get chain drive for my slashfive so i too can do wheelies and be real squiddly andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re new to motorcycles apparently the only place to take the msf course around here in nc is at a community college that woudl preclude some sort of state subsidation then no andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re vfr st owners get hidden feature in article c r b c world std com daved world std com dave t dorfman writes i was enjoying lunch this saturday at foodies in milford nh with an assortment of other nedod folks when dean cookson yes he has not left the country yet mentioned that the wiring diagram of the vfr shows that the light switch is a three position switch high beam low beam both beams well the actual ergonomics of the switch make it appear to be a position switch but sure enough as deam expected when you balance the toggle switch in the center position both the high and low beams go on this provides a very nice light coverage of the road this is true for the st and the vfr and i would expect for any other late model honda with the standard two position light switch thanks to dean for reading the schematics try it you ll like it be a bit careful doing this i used to balance the switch on my gs b avec cibie h insert so that both beams were on i eventually fried the main ignition switch as it wasn t designed to pass that sort of current ivan reid paul scherrer institute ch ivan cvax psi ch gsx f rg wd si you porsche me pass dod
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article apr siemens co at mxcrew mx gud siemens co at the mx crew wrote sorry for my stupid question but what do you americans mean with shaft drives my dictionary knows only strange meanings like schaft stiel pfeil strahl welle deichsel schacht shaft bamboozle beat beguile burn or flame deceive hoax hoodwink drive campaign crusade push so shaft drive may be a campaign to decieve or a crusade of beguile efforts where are true to the spirit of this list wheel revolution swing crusaders of beguile are innefective in revolutions and they cannot swing either therefore shaft drives cannot do wheelies john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article c n u i y cbnewsj cb att com car cbnewsj cb att com charles a rogers writes so of the hp produced by my fj engine hp watts hp kilowatts is being dumped into leetle tiny o rings that s watts per o ring seems a little hot doncha think o chuck rogers car torreys att com so hey like does this work the other way if i was to like you know strap a generator to my fzjrr krx and route its output to the chain could i increase the horsepower meters a sec is pretty nice and all but i d still like to be able to blow away a goldwing without going to nitro dod xj j big maroon vf f l audace don t blame me i voted libertarian
rec.motorcycles	re yamaha vs honda opinions nuet ke pts mot com keith nuetzman x p writes i am in hte market for a new bike been without for a few years the two main bikes i m looking at seriously are the yamaha virago and the honda shadow vlx i am leaning towards the yamaha for its shaft drive the honda is chain insurance in fla is more costly than i thought so i am staying in this power range thanks in advance for any opinions and or experiences a friend of mine who s probably reading this right now just bought a new yamaha virago after spending hours very late one chilly evening watching him struggle with the bolts had to remove the right peg loosen the brake pedal c c i ve pretty much decided never to get this particular model unless he or someone else wants to change the oil filter for me compared to the minute change he was used to for his honda this is just a design flaw oversight in my eyes patricia phj remus rutgers edu
rec.motorcycles	re help which bikes are short bean ra cgd ucar edu gregory bean writes help i ve got a friend shopping for her first motorcycle this is great unfortunately she needs at most a seat this is not great so far the only thing we ve found was an old and unhappy looking kz i have been checking out bikes hoping for lowish seats for a few weeks a honda twinstar cc fit me well a honda hawk cc did not the kawasaki hb sb sh can t remember looked like it would fit me well but the price tag was way too large i seem to remember a thread with a point similar to this passing through several months ago did anybody keep that list please post this list or mail me one too patricia phj remus rutgers edu
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax wheelies ak yfn ysu edu john r daker writes i would like to offocially nominate maxima chain wax as another official tm dod product of choice is there an official dod products of choice list if so would the appropriate party please post it erc p s if its in the faq keep them to yourself i got plenty maybe i ll go recheck them now just to be sure
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other in article bbnv cq quantum qnx com dagibbs quantum qnx com david gibbs writes but on a similar note for a while i drove a vw wesfalia this is their camper van conversion i found that other drivers of this same model would wave to me and i waved back maybe its because we were all driving a funny looking vehicle no it is more because van drivers need a little support for driving such underpowered pathetic and truly utilitarian vehicles me and my used to wave and be waved at all across the country between nh and co now that we live in so cal though i find you d have to damn near wave your arm off to keep up with all the van drivers this is truly vee dub heaven peace taffe mike taffe disclaim this mtaffe ucsd edu
rec.motorcycles	re looking for movies w bikes in article c w w dpd dcs qmw ac uk davide dcs qmw ac uk dave edmondson writes eat the peach two guys build a wall of death to alleviate boredom get mixed up with the ira in the process an excellent movie not essentially about motorcycles but a very poignant look at life in rural ireland dave tharp dod you can t wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra an indian scout k s indian chief ahrma or its brother the chief r s tr b ama they re built like rocks r velorex nsu max to take the knocks bmw r compulsive it s the harleys that my employer has no idea joiner give you grief
rec.motorcycles	re volvo attack in article bd apr bd uucp bd fluent dartmouth edu writes cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes where can i get rocket launchers for the vfr batf is having a fire sale in waco tx try there you might try the rec models rockets newsgroup interesting stuff some of it should probably be classified as artillery dave tharp dod you can t wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra an indian scout k s indian chief ahrma or its brother the chief r s tr b ama they re built like rocks r velorex nsu max to take the knocks bmw r compulsive it s the harleys that my employer has no idea joiner give you grief
rec.motorcycles	re looking for movies w bikes silver dream racer frustrated brit club racer s buddy dies leaving him a built in garage revolutionary experimental gp bike brit club racer uses machine to beat bad american on bad japanese factory bike at british gp filmed at silverstone i believe pretty bad dave tharp dod you can t wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra an indian scout k s indian chief ahrma or its brother the chief r s tr b ama they re built like rocks r velorex nsu max to take the knocks bmw r compulsive it s the harleys that my employer has no idea joiner give you grief
rec.motorcycles	re magnetic tank bags what about disks won t it erase them if you re carrying them in the bag cathy cathy saum cs andrew cmu edu s negley ave yamaha seca xj pgh pa cl custom wooden tank studio mustang v dod supercalifragilisticexpealidotious what we see is what we know but what we feel is who we are what we feel is what nobody can ever take away t m mcnally until your heart stops
rec.motorcycles	any used gsx r s for sale i recently sold my nighthawk in order to upgrade to a zippy little sport bike i am however partial to the bigger zippy bikes like the gsx r there is only one in my town for sale and he is not sure whether he wants to part with it or not please send me email if you would like to sell yours know of one for sale or could just offer details on the performance of yours even if you wouldn t sell i appreciate any help the hypeman pontiac se mercury topaz gs looking for a bike baby booom mrs baby booom gsx r under modification under construction cbr f she likes his hers vfr f
rec.motorcycles	zx help i need help getting my zx c to behave i ve managed to get the front suspension to be very happy but the rear sucks i can t do anything with it to make it feel ok the bike is very stable through the corners i think because i have the front just right but when the straights get bumpy the rear is torturous it feels like it actually amplifies the bumps and the damping doesn t seem to do anything in real life although you can tell the difference when the bike isn t moving i ve tried cm of sag from completeley unloaded but i don t know which way to go has anyone gotten the rear of this bike comfortable and if so what kind of settings esp what sag did you use i like to corner but i also would like my kidneys to remain intact this thing makes the new zx feel comfy rbarnes sdcc ucsd edu
rec.motorcycles	re your opinion and what it means to me in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes since the occurance i ve paid many dollars in renumerance taken the drunk class and yes listened to all the self righteous assholes like yourself that think your so above the rest of the world because you ve never had your own little dd suaree some of us aren t that fucking stupid you cock sucking asshole that s why we haven t had our own little dd suaree i m soo impressed that you ve had to spend your own precious little dollars to make up for your own stupid act now go fuck off friends killed by drunk driving assholes like andress infante children friends orphaned by drunk driving assholes like infante now who s the self righteous asshole you weak willed fuck head i hate the b the b can bite me
rec.motorcycles	re battery storage why not charge and store dry quite right your batteries should be perfectly alright and retain most of their charge if drained and dried well but i d throw out the electrolyte and buy some more when you need it and before anyone says i m wrong remember that new batteries almost always come ready charged and dry and they are perfectly ok even after several years storage at the shop mark fox
rec.motorcycles	re so do any xxxx i mean police officers read this stuff allan hatcher ahatcher athena cs uga edu wrote well here goes after lurking for a long time i ll announce myself yes i m the enemy the enemy that also happens to ride an arrest me red vfr i don t generally consider police officers the enemy i hope you don t think bikers in general have that attitude stereotypes suck either way i ll entertain questions but my answers will reflect georgia law and may not apply in your state p s anyone got a nomex suit for sale you shouldn t get flamed for being a cop i can t promise you won t because there are jerks on this newsgroup same as any other but if you ve been lurking for a while you already know that you might get lots of flames if you try to convince people that you know more than them just because you have a badge and of course you will get a moderate amount of flamage just for expressing an opinion no matter what the opinion is somebody will flame you for it so have you ordered any official dod paraphenalia yet wristwatch bandana patches tell your boss your going undercover with a real badass biker gang bill ranck bill ranck vt edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg va
rec.motorcycles	re dyna s vs crane in article c qpzo hdq cbnewsm cb att com shz mare att com keeper of the tude writes i plan to switch to a single fire ignition in about a month and was curious if anyone has experience with the supposedly new crane single fire that competes with the dyna s the club wrench not the wench has done dyna s modules for several friends and i ll get one also unless a bunch of folks say the crane is better one guy just installed the mc power arc ignition but has not yet reported the results it was not a simple bolt in replacement as new mounting holes had to be drilled i recognize it s more fun to discuss why chris needed to change brands of penis enhancer but how bout some comments on single fire ignitions for a while i just installed a mc power arc ii and it seems to run great i also used mc coils and neither the ignition module or the coils required any new mounting holes to be drilled on my fxstc a little soldering and all was fine static timing was real easy to set too on the other side of the coin my local wrench whose opinion i invariably seek but don t always adopt thinks mc power arc is a piece of shit and says all them jap chips are gonna fail you one day needless to say he doesn t like any electronic ignition modules and recommends the dyna s system i think that s the one with the hall effect timing sensor s correct russ hughes fxstc dod e the chrome and steel she rides collidin with the very air she breathes n young
rec.motorcycles	re cb c with flames out the exhaust in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes in article apr bnr ca dave dal farra gpz bnr ca writes reminds me of a great editorial by bruce reeve a couple months ago in cycle canada he was so pissed off with cops pulling over speeders in dangerous spots and often blind corners that one day he decided to get revenge cruising on a factory loaner zzr test bike he noticed a cop had pulled over a motorist on an on or off ramp with almost no shoulder being a bright lad he hit his bike s kill switch just before passing the cop who happened to be bending towards the offending motorist there by exposing his glutes to the passing world with his ignition system now dead he pumped his throtle two or three times to fill his exhaust canister s with volatile raw fuel all it took was a stab at the kill switch to re light the ignition and send a flame in sargeant swell s direction i wonder if any cycle cops read cycle canada although i agree with the spirit of the action i do hope that the rider ponied up the or so it takes to replace the exhaust system he just destroyed the owner s manual explicitly warns against such behavior for exactly that reason you can destroy your muflers that way one more good reason for straight pipes or megaphones regards charles dod rz ps does anyone know if opti oils sells direct by the case load my loacl dealership is charging for a jug of injector oil and it s breaking me within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante wrote my will do wheelies because it s a chain drive model wow is that custom made no it is the stock setup someone really ought to put an end to the confusion regarding bmw s chain drive boxers didn t someone post the faq on this some time ago in essence it describes the problem bmw is having with their decision to settle down to a shaft drive as a standard they vacilate and persist in reintroducing the chain drive in various models r c gosh well on with the crusade john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re zeno s countersteering paradox unveiled in article apr acfcluster nyu edu mullignj acfcluster nyu edu wrote therefore there is a point in time when even though my front wheel is turned to the right i must be going straight ahead the point when i go from the right turn to the left what you are trying to describe is that transition point where the front wheel actually reverses direction turns backwards john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re two beemer questions r gs in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu asphaug lpl arizona edu erik asphaug x writes hello folks i m very happy with my new r gs my range is miles on gallons that s mpg surprisingly the bike is a real cruiser i was expecting something rough she s a sweet backroad honey and i can go pretty much anyplace i d take my mountain bike as far as shaft effect it s more a torque effect from the crankshaft in my opinion rev it sitting still when the driveshaft is not moving and the bike twists a bit maybe if the clutch is in then a large chunk of counter rotating mass is not rotating hence at a light reving makes it twist shaft effect is the rear end rising under power or the real problem getting lower to the road when the throttle is snapped shut say when you are cornering and the heads are real close to the road new gs bikes with the paralever shaft have almost no shaft effect i don t ride her fast enough to get a shaft effect but in my opinion a little buffeting by wind is of far greater consequence okay here are my questions any recommendations for a home made fairing i d like to keep the wind off my chest and perhaps my helmet for comfort at highway speeds mph yet don t want to a screw up the stability or b block my vision too much for trail riding anybody have luck with two piece detachible fairings i d like to make it myself out of plexiglas i run two lights the standard headlamp plus a sidelamp mounted on the crash bar the illumination s excellent that way with a full beam coming out from the level of the motor left side the lamp beam is linear so that you get a bright streak of illumination from left to right and it really picks up the periphery deer lurking etc combined with the headlamp on high you can see like day but i ve heard that bmw alternators don t crank out too much do i need to shut down the sidelamp when i m puttering around in the dirt at low rpm it s a question of how long you spend at low rpm and how much you need the extra light at low rpm k and under they don t charge all that much if at all the alternators put out sufficient wattage it just that you need to be at k rpm to get it this is embarassing i m having trouble starting the bike first thing in the morning i invariably flood the carbs then go in and read a section of the paper and then she starts right up is this a zen thing full choke open the gas taps hit the starter and ever so slightly blip the throttle it should fire cranking should be done with minimal throttle my r likes the throttles to be raised just a bit off idle it s an experience thing like zen it s hard to describe it can be hard to learn if you aren t paying atttention to the differences between success and failure especially if you get really pissed off and flatten the battery while trying to get it to run if my bike has been sitting for a few weeks i give it a short while to start if it doesn t i turn it off and wait a few minutes for things to vaporize in the fuel system and then it lights right off i ve got dual plugs which make it easier to start the hayne s manual says do not under any circumstances use gasoline with alcohol additives yeah right what do you folks due to keep the engine and carbs from being eaten by ethanol and methanol any particular brands of gas that are best additives the big fix is the bing carb upgrade kit it s good for a few mpg and the parts are alcohol proof the parts it replaces aren t alcohol proof as long as the bike isn t going to sit for long periods of time gasohol is nice since it helps keep ping away if your bike doesn t ping on cheap gas you ought to raise the compression half a smiley the bmw twins of the s and beyond have lowered compression to keep the epa happy dual plugs and higher compression give back a big chunk of the lost perfomance neil kirby dod nak archie cbusa att com at t bell labs columbus oh usa if you think i speak for at t you might have more lawyers than sense
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other in article rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes has anyone while driving a cage ever waved at bikers i get the urge but i ve never actually done it neigh on every day most don t notice let s see how many posts it takes for someone to selectively quote this article in article rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes has anyone ever done it what do i win ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re a point for helmet law is a point for in article i n agate berkeley edu manish uclink berkeley edu manish vij writes motorcycles are not allowed on th mile drive at pebble beach what are there posted signs what do they cite you for they don t it s a closed access road you pay to get in if you don t have a resident sticker and they simply don t open the gates if you re on a bike ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in article moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes recently the highway patrol took a few of the opposition senators out and gave them some shots and when they hit put them on a course dodging cones they failed and will probably change their votes as a result did they try to do the course before having a few drinks dunno the newpaper article i read didn t say i was wondering the same thing i rather doubt it ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article snz morgan demon co uk tony morgan demon co uk tony kidson wrote well maintained chains running in oil without those little rubber o rings to cause frictional losses might reach efficiency the average open to the dust o ring motorcycle chain probably has a difficult job making efficient how about some citations or is this just impressionistic speculation on your part for years i ve been laboring under the delusion that chain drives were more efficient that shaft drives chain drives are also stronger ever seen a successful shaftie dragster no no flames please i ve got both kinds of drives john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re ignition problem snark bmerh bnr ca eric nelson writes my nighthawk has two related problems with the ignition system it won t start when on cold mornings c f or so i always need to give it gas when starting it even when using the clutch this all still happens after a tune up and a new battery any ideas on what could be wrong with the bike i think you have the choke starter jet blocked and even the idle one manuel arrevola velasco e mail manolo taf fundesco es fundesco zx calle alcala dr s madrid dod tel don t waste your time express it
rec.motorcycles	st time biker iso advice i m just starting out with motorcycles i ve read up on the subject a bit talked to many of my friends who own ride bikes and encourage me to do the same but when i ask about what kind of bike i should be looking at i get varied answers i m about large athletic build i suppose that would help to determine the size bike i d want i want something that s going to be fast and powerful enough to satisfy certain cravings once i m used to it i also want something that is not going to be like a bronc my first time out any ideas bill replys are prefered through e mail thanks in advance
rec.motorcycles	re vfr st owners get hidden feature warning warning may cause unpleasantness in article c r b c world std com daved world std com dave t dorfman writes i was enjoying lunch this saturday at foodies in milford nh with an assortment of other nedod folks when dean cookson yes he has not left the country yet mentioned that the wiring diagram of the vfr shows that the light switch is a three position switch high beam low beam both beams well the actual ergonomics of the switch make it appear to be a position switch but sure enough as deam expected when you balance the toggle switch in the center position both the high and low beams go on this provides a very nice light coverage of the road this is true for the st and the vfr and i would expect for any other late model honda with the standard two position light switch it s a make before break type of switch if not required it ought to be for high low beams there might be a wee problem with this if you use both filaments at the same time the bulb is tossing out a great deal more heat than normal possibly enough to shorten it s life span my honda crx cage a cage that really wanted to be a bike had wimpy stock lights so we used to run around with both beams on made a mucho big difference until both low beam filaments died nearly simultaneously this was two weeks after finding out how nice it was to use both beams i replaced the lights with quartz halogen lights and that ended the problem neil kirby dod nak archie cbusa att com at t bell labs columbus oh usa if you think i speak for at t you might have more lawyers than sense
rec.motorcycles	suzuki gr for sale article crossposted from sdnet forsale rec motocycle author was michael james posted on apr gmt i must sell my motorcycle it is a gr tempter it has k miles and runs well includes a cover and tank bag i m asking for it all e mail me if you want to take a look at it michael james james mintaka sdsu edu pa h michael james james mintaka sdsu edu pa still no neat sig oh well
rec.motorcycles	re what octane what about ethanol it s available here in corn country and its octane is rated at or and costs the same as normal octane eerik j villberg p people for the eerik iastate edu e eating of harris street t tasty ames ia a animals
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in hpcc corp hp com gharriso hpcc corp hp com graeme harrison writes hpcc rec motorcycles xlyx vax cit cornell edu pm apr is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive mike terry virago i ve seen em but the real question is can one do a wheelie on a lead wing if so how high would the front wheel be off the ground graeme harrison there was a guy around here who would do them on an early pre fairing wing with a hannigan he would get it right up and ride a ways pretty intimidating sight he was real good he had to be i guess you wouldn t get away with chopping the throttle more than once jorg klinger gsxr if you only new who arch eng services lost horizons cr i think i am umanitoba man ca the embalmer it anonymous squidonk
rec.motorcycles	re type spesifications cb vfr gt etc victor johnson on the thu apr gmt wibbled in rec motorcycles cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes in article c sk d c p srgenprp sr hp com frankb sad hp com frank ball writes honda a v designates a v engine street bike vf for v vt for v twin so how about my honda hawk nt it s a twin but not called a vt that s because they took the old vt engine and stepped on it to make the plant for the hawk new twin or does that only fly for microsoft nt new technology i ve been at this too long today cheers victor dances with hawks johnson also the bmw stuff k rs k kraut rs really slow i suppose that s how much you have to spend each week to keep the damn thing on the road nick the pissed off with his bike again biker dod concise oxford m lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated at bnr o o npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay maidenhead the united kingdom o pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re dogs vs bikes my first encounter with a dog chasing after my bike was on my first poker run a big german shepard ran out into the pack of bikes i was riding with and tried to bite the right leg of the guy riding in front of me he kicked the dog a couple of times we were all only going about mph and just made the dog angrier and got away by applying wfo and outrunning the dog who then started after yours truly at the time i had open drag pipes obnoxiously loud as hell and as soon as the dog was about feet away from the right side of my bike i pulled in the clutch and revved the motor up to about rpm and the roar of the pipes frightened the dog away probably made the dog s ears hurt like hell and he didn t come back for the rest of the bikers behind me either my second encounter was with an already deceased road kill dog i wasn t paying very close attention to the pavement when the car in front of me straddled the carcass i looked down just in time to see what i was about to run over so i just held onto the handlebars and freaked out both wheels went squarely over the dog s belly with a thump thump just like running over a piece of a x lumber the bike didn t lose any stability at all and i kept on going after i got to my destination i found bits of fur meat and blood stuck to the bottom of my motor and frame gross neal howard xlh dod computrac inc richardson tx doh o neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer my opinions are mine not computrac s let us learn to dream gentlemen and then perhaps we shall learn the truth august kekule
rec.motorcycles	re dod confessional in article apr bnr ca mbeaving bnr ca writes i can t help myself i ve tried to be rational to look the other way but everytime it happens its uncontrollable i hate pre s motorcycles crud deleted the beav mike beavington dod v sabre mbeaving bnr ca my employer has no idea what i m talking about you are missing out on a lot of neat old rides tuba irwin i honk therefore i am computrac richardson tx irwin cmptrc lonestar org dod r
rec.motorcycles	re where to put your helmet in article uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes another good place for your helmet is your mirror i kid you not if you own a typical standard or other bike with fairly average mirrors that screw into your handlebars your helmet should fit over your mirror and be fairly stable butt butt then yu w nt be able t ee the car neak g up behind yu and p p a whhheeeeelllleeeee t d tchum and the chick dig it seriously though putting a helmet on a mirror is inadvisable because you are then resting the weight of the helmet on the fragile foam liner that is expected to cushion your noggin and once crushed that foam never pops back a variation of mirror hanging thing is what i do with the bike on the sidestand hey the centerstand is for maintenance i turn the wheel to the stop left and can hang the helmet by the chin bar on the right grip there is no crushable foam in the chin bar and it is pretty secure on there as long as the forks are locked if i have to leave the helmet with the parked bike and the bags aren t on full that is about the most stable place dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com i m getting tired of concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you up dave rz ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon
rec.motorcycles	re cb c with flames out the exhaust hey the lone biker of the apocalypse see raising arizona had flames coming out of both his exhaust pipes i love to toggle the kill switch on my sportster to produce flaming backfires especially underneath overpasses at night it s loud and lights up the whole underpass neal howard xlh dod computrac inc richardson tx doh o neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer my opinions are mine not computrac s let us learn to dream gentlemen and then perhaps we shall learn the truth august kekule
rec.motorcycles	re funny thing happened on the way to the hon in article elan rowan edu cassidy elan rowan edu kyle cassidy writes and i see that for the past miles i ve been riding with my side stand down oops and who was it that insisted sidestand cutout switches were right up there with tachometers something like a curse from god ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re riceburner respect in article c qiwz djm cbnewsm cb att com shz mare att com keeper of the tude writes the only consolation was that she had trouble scraping together the while is not quite one week s beer money for me roid well know i know how you can afford a harley keith schauer texas instruments plain o texas cb custom dod in an insane society the sane man must appear insane ama my company disavows any knowledge of my actions
rec.motorcycles	which is the better bike i am looking at the honda shadow and the intruder or what have you heard about these bikes also if i plan on doing long time riding are these twin v cruisers the best bikes to get if i dont want something massive like the goldwings
rec.motorcycles	re wing ding on wed apr gmt franks hercules cs uregina ca derek franks said franks this is my first post so no dod would you like to know what dod is if you do feel free to ask fill up your rtaraz wpi wpi edu is today tank and ex a good day go for a ride dod taurus pt af to die
rec.motorcycles	re so do any xxxx i mean police officers read this stuff in article r ob oav vtserf cc vt edu ranck joesbar cc vt edu wm l ranck writes and of course you will get a moderate amount of flamage just for expressing an opinion no matter what the opinion is somebody will flame you for it bill ranck bill ranck vt edu hey what the hell do you mean by that you suck i have a god given right to express opinions carry a gun and to not wear a helmet goddamn it everything you stand for is stupid you know alan i really like this one tommy mcguire mcguire cs utexas edu mcguire austin ibm com i will append an appropriate disclaimer to outgoing public information identifying it as personal and as independent of ibm
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering sans hands in article rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes well as many a bored bike tourer can tell you the way to steer sans hans is to push your body off to the side you want to lean also known as leaning say you want to turn left severely confused rambling about the ground pushing but the front wheel has trail if the ground pushes the front wheel toward the left at the contact patch the trail will cause the wheel to turn to the right hey there we are no hands counter steering contersteering refers to pushing the inside handlebar to effect a lean no hands countersteering is an oxymoron ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	bub pipes live free with variable loudness after failing my state of new hampshire noise gestapo test with my hd slash cut pipes i installed my new bubs which i had been planning to do anyway went to a different in spection station and passed with no problem at about db two points first i don t think the first dude did the noise test correctly holding the meter close to his body probably caused a high reading and doing it inside the garage with the door closed undoubtedly enhanced the db level so if any other nh riders need to get this done make sure the inspection is done outdoors with the meter held well away from the body second these bub pipes are bloody terrific at low revs or cruising through town they as quiet as the stock pipes but have a sound thats a more throaty purring rumble when you open her up to rpm they emit a wonderfully satisfying rumbling roar best of both worlds russ hughes fxstc dod e the chrome and steel she rides collidin with the very air she breathes n young
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion in article apr microsoft com patlo microsoft com pat loughery writes also remember that it s much more draining and tiring to ride up than by yourself because you re concentrating on much more and in the zen of the moment less remember this the first few times i pillioned someone whose safety was a great concern to me as opposed to brothers etc i almost got us both killed on several occasions i was surprised to discover that it is much safer to just drive than to distract yourself by trying to be unusually cautious and concerned abruptly adopting a novel set of thought patterns and riding strategies while piloting a bike is just asking for trouble michael robinson uucp ucbvax cogsci robinson internet robinson cogsci berkeley edu
rec.motorcycles	re yamaha vs honda opinions in a previous article phj remus rutgers edu p ju says nuet ke pts mot com keith nuetzman x p writes a friend of mine who s probably reading this right now just bought a new yamaha virago after spending hours very late one chilly evening watching him struggle with the bolts had to remove the right peg loosen the brake pedal c c i ve pretty much decided never to get this particular model unless he or someone else wants to change the oil filter for me compared to the minute change he was used to for his honda this is just a design flaw oversight in my eyes patricia phj remus rutgers edu sure don t know what bike was being worked on but it sure wasn t a virago i ve owned both the and and you can do the filter change in about mins and nothing has to be removed obviously the new bike was modified as the stock machine is simple to work on watching for imitators lloyd aa freenet carleton ca carr carr uranus dgrc doc ca dod ve fhc ve osq amrp org eon on can ca
rec.motorcycles	re battery storage why not charge and store dry in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu mfox nyx cs du edu mark fox says quite right your batteries should be perfectly alright and retain most of their charge if drained and dried well but i d throw out the electrolyte and buy some more when you need it and before anyone says i m wrong remember that new batteries almost always come ready charged and dry and they are perfectly ok even after several years storage at the shop mark fox makes sense to me after all when steel is manufactured and stored they put oil on it so it won t rust logicaly when you store your bike you must strip the paint and put oil on the metal to prevent rus
rec.motorcycles	re dogs ooooooopsssss for a second there i thought i was in rec beatthelivingcrapoutofadog we re not hell i was wondering why there was all the pointless woffle about motorcycles so how do i find rec beatthelivingcrapoutofadog i dont think our system takes it
rec.motorcycles	re advantages of slip ons in article apr kronos arc nasa gov dschlot pioneer arc nasa gov dave schlotthauer writes quick question what are the advantages of slip on s versus your stock exhaust versus aftermarket exhaust systems i don t see many people using slip on s but they are heavily advertised and half as expensive thanks dave cost is lower than oem replacements and they weigh less also in most instances you do not have to rejet the carburetors to get a little more performance i replaced my oem canister with an ontario systems slip on the mid range performance is better but i also notice a slight stumble at k rpm after talking to kaz yoshima the developer and manufacturer of the slip on he thinks i might need larger pilot idle jets was not suppose to but maybe where i live makes a difference altitude barometric pressure anyway besides that minor glitch i like the slip on performance and the sound which is louder than stock but not loud enough to annoy folks the ontario slip on use some sort of sound baffling technique to reduce the sound at full throttle just remember every bike is a tuned system when you change the intake or exhaust characteristics beyond the allowable delta of the manufacturer you may have to change other areas to compensate like a complete change of the exhaust system header and muffler changes the exhaust characteristic to the point which re jetting is required to compensate for the new engine breathing pumping profile talk with the folks who make the slip on you intend to use and ask them if they have used it on your particular bike check with people who have the system also to see what they think about there slip on also as a last data point in sport rider s first issue did a review on a group of header and exhaust systems for the cbr f they also included as a side bar the ontario slip on the dyno showed an increase from stock of bhp at the rear wheel verses buyer beware of outrageous claimed increases in horse power it may have been true in the past but not today at cbr f allen tobias technical email convex computer corp marketing tobias convex com waterview parkway richardson tx this bike is awesome and i m fearless let s go jay gleason
rec.motorcycles	re advantages of slip ons in article rigoj isl apple com paul thompson thompson apple com writes it sure would be nice if someone would start making replacements for oem exhausts that were would be cheaper but not louder i read about a supertrapp system called e a r that was supposed to be quiet enough to pass some european standards apparently it s not on the market yet yoshimura makes a few systems that are supposed to be kind of quiet they are also really light i m planning on getting one of these systems soon and will post the results mark mark s burnham markb wc novell com ama dod alfa romeo gtv ninja
rec.motorcycles	funny thing happened at the dmv the other day i saw this posted and it brings an interesting event to mind in article mdennie beryllium mdennie xerox com matt dennie writes the reactions of little boys seems to be the most enthusiastic to a wave and also good to see i always wave when i see a kid that has at least noticed my bike i figure it helps the future of the sport i have to admit that i usually try to do so without the parental figure noticing i m afraid that the kid will get yelled at for associatign with anti societal types like us a few weeks ago i was in the dmv with ken i was standing in a mile long line waiting for some really bored looking person to fleece a bunch of people from some dough ken was sitting on a chair next to our helmets wondering why everybody there looked to be about the social calibur of people you would find at a laundromat when some young woman walked in who required our conferring attentions he came over and stood in line with me while we watched her fill out some forms and then we noticed a little kid about years old reach over the bench and touch our helmets one at a time i didn t particularly mind and neither did ken that the kid was touching our helmets that is but the helmets weren t on the most stable of platforms so ken scooted over there to resettle them and as soon as he touched the helmets mother of said child started shrieking at her kid you stay away from those you shit and whopped the tyke brutally about the head and shoulders i suppose it was our scary sex drugs and unix t shirts that sent such bouts of terror through her body
rec.motorcycles	re story respect in article apr pacesetter com lynn pacesetter com lynn e hall writes nudity fine loud noise fine party all night fine but at the right place and time please let s not trample over other s rights and then bitch because they don t treat us like gods michael menard you know i wasn t even going to respond to this typical anti party attitude message trash was everywhere reason not enough dipsy dumpsters for the massive crowd oatman wasn t prepared for the vast number of people that showed up i don t think michael s response was anti party but rather pro environmental i agree that you gotta let us hogs out to roam every once in awhile let s hope that next year oatman will be better prepared and that we all pick up after ourselves an asshole i ve already admitted i m an asshole many times on the net all my friends are assholes too lyrics to a new song so you want a dime to call someone that cares well i for one thought you told a good story even if you say you are an a hole we need more biker experiances written to news it s unfortunate that you got flamed for telling it but we all know this is a controversial group at any rate keep up the good work and continue to post stories jerry fxdl
rec.motorcycles	re touring the southwest in article f b w w fatcity cts com kim fatcity cts com kim sharpe writes a few of us are touring sothwest utah in mid june to see the canyons do any of you have some helpful hints on where to stay or things to see do avoid plans are to see bryce zion arches is the grand close at that point or is an additional trip required any help would be nice thank you for your support no the grand canyon is not too far away short side trips to kolob between cedar city and hurricane and pipe springs on the way from hurricane to the grand canyon may be interesting they are right off the highway pipe springs a small fort gives you real insight into just how the pioneers lived you have missed one major must see attraction cedar breaks in the mountains above cedar city take lots of film they have a reason for calling this kodachrome country natural bridges in the four corners area is also very scenic but may be too far off your route monument valley is spectacular but again may be too far away rich tweedie
rec.motorcycles	re inner tube in tyre safe speedy mercer speedy engr latech edu wrote in article apr csdvax csd unsw edu au exb csdvax csd unsw edu au writes hello dod ers et al i need some advice on inner tubes in tubeless tyres barry manor dod spend the bucks and get a new tire dod technician dr speed not student i second the commend from dr speed get a new tire it s like your brakes something you don t want to take chances with i waited too long to take care of my front tire once and it went flat on me doing mph going down the grapevine towards bakersfield at that instance i would of given any amount of money for a new tire i m lucky to be here jerry
rec.sport.baseball	re braves giants tmiller cimmeria gatech edu thomas miller writes does anyone else think that this weekend s four game series was a really strange one yes it was the strangest series i have ever watched and the ending fit perfectly kurt in atlanta hoyt cc gatech edu kwh salestech com compuserve com politics from the greek poli many tics ugly blood sucking parasites
rec.sport.baseball	re mlb nba rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes in article mssc qrrz h netcom com mss netcom com mark singer says in article rvesterm vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes so you want to decrease players salaries so you want to increase owners salaries the two are equivalent bob vesterman only if you insist that the ticket prices cannot be adjusted downward or the taxes for the revenues to build the ballparks or the parking charges or the concession costs etc why would owners decrease ticket prices when they obviously get lots of people to pay the price they re asking even assuming that you have some strange power to make the owners decrease ticket prices that does not decrease the tv contract bob vesterman so what will happen when the tv contract runs out considering networks have been losing money on it either ticket prices will go up or someones salary will be cut or perhaps the local community or merchindise could make up the difference baseball is probably facing a dramatic drop in income very soon and someone will suffer probably the fans from higher ticket prices but definitely someone
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris hey guys who is this jack morris fella only joking but try to lighten up will ya the season s only just started and everyone s apoplectic if all you statheads out there are trying to justify how morris is doing at the moment just remember that we re talking about a very small sample size there is a helluva long way to go so sit back and enjoy the ride tony
rec.sport.baseball	re braves giants in article hpspdla spd hp com garyr hpspdla spd hp com gary rosen writes thomas miller am apr does anyone else think that this weekend s four game series was a really strange one yeah it was real strange if you think the braves should be awarded the nl west title without actually having to play the games gary rosen i didn t say that did you say that wow i can t believe that anyone would think that the braves or any other team for that matter should get the title for free what a dolt that person would be if that was what they thought incredible thomas miller tmiller cimmeria gatech edu systems support specialist ii georgia tech network services and i looked and behold a pale horse and his name that sat on him was death and hell followed with him
rec.sport.baseball	re hunter on dl klesko up steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes in news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes as a touter of braves prospects all i can say is that imo someone on the braves roster is about to become pipped it may not even be hunter but i think they ll have a problem getting klesko out of the lineup once he s in well this may be good news if klesko hits i d look for bream to be traded if possible or released since bream is also a lefthander hope klesko hits according to the atlanta paper bream will be the full time first baseman with klesko used as a late inning defensive replacement if bream is lifted for a pinch runner he d have to hit a homer in his first ab or win the game or do some other amazing thing to be rewarded with a start so he could even attempt to push hunter or bream out of the lineup kurt in atlanta hoyt cc gatech edu kwh salestech com compuserve com politics from the greek poli many tics ugly blood sucking parasites
rec.sport.baseball	re game length was re braves update nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes however what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games you are the first person non mediot i have seen endorse this policy i have no problem with the length of games at all and am tired of the espn crowd and other announcers bitching about it i have never been in a ballpark filled with people looking at their watches and shouting hurry up if i cough up big bucks for a ticket i don t mind a game that last more than i really don t understand it i agree with nick what s the big deal about long games if you want to watch baseball there s that much more baseball to watch and yes baseball includes the space between plays as well as the plays themselves i suspect that a lot of the complaining about long games especially when it s coming from tv people has to something to do with advertising probably time wasted in the middle of an inning say by a batter stepping out of the box to fiddle with his gloves or by a pitcher walking around behind the mound trying to collect his thoughts could otherwise be sold as advertising time heather hhenderson vax clarku edu
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes not at all i am talking about morris winning with toronto last year you are about to launch into a fantasy about the red jays and how toronto would have done with viola on their team viola didn t play for toronto last year morris did the problem with your nihilistic approach roger is that it takes all the sense out of the game by your line of reasoning if a guy hits into a double play with one out and the bases loaded there s no point in saying that that was a bad thing to do if his team won anyway or speculating on what might have happened if things had gone otherwise so the double play is merely an event that happened in the course of a game that was eventually won or lost for unknown reasons after all any speculation involves constructing a fantasy about what would have happened but didn t roger do you ever worry that the next pencil you drop will fall to the ceiling instead or are you willing to consider empirical evidence teams go to the post season when they win more games than anybody else in their division if they don t make the post season they don t win the series will you agree that winning a division is a useful intermediate goal in ring collecting if so you must agree that winning games is a useful intermediate goal towards winning the division and our disagreements come when we consider how to win games in your viewpoint as expressed winning games happens for reasons that cannot be analyzed while many of us are thinking things like base runners are good outs are bad and therefore walks are better than double plays with the bases loaded you are thinking things like it s a team game so perhaps the double play will cause some mysterious team dynamics that will cause the team to win today the result is that it becomes impossible to say anything about individual players perhaps atlanta would have won the series with me playing left field after all perhaps in some way my knowledge and personality would have helped the team more than my complete lack of skill would have hurt it therefore i could be an extremely valuable player did dave winfield have anything to do with the jays victory probably but how do you know if you replace him with andres galarraga perhaps the jays would have won perhaps they would have lost perhaps they would have defected to alpha centauri bearing in mind that the flying saucers would not have landed in mid season had winfield been dhing for toronto was babe ruth a good player he played on some ws winning teams but did he have anything to do with their success it is generally accepted that ernie banks was a good baseball player and jarvis brown and dan schatzeder weren t it seems to me that anybody who would deny this needs to provide the proof now we have observed things about baseball over the years both empirically and by looking at the rulebook it is necessary to score more runs than one s opponent to win the game so it would seem important to score runs and to prevent one s opponent from scoring runs are scored while a team is batting and an inning ends after the third out so it would seem that making outs is bad while hitting home runs is good players have tendencies to hit or pitch at certain levels and these are usually somewhat consistent from year to year we do use these statistics to predict winners and so do you to make some flat predictions barry bonds will have a higher obp slg than gene larkin this year the braves will finish ahead of the rockies in the standings the tigers will score more runs than the royals but will also give up more i would be astonished if any of these turned out to be false and i suspect so would you as a matter of fact i am pretty sure i can predict all the division winners this year given guesses per division and this is certainly better than random chance and almost statistically significant if you will admit that the rockies and mariners are unlikely to meet in the world series you must admit that there is some sort of way to measure likelihoods however fuzzy it is impossible for all other things to be equal so your fantasy is totally meaningless so how about real life person a robs a service station with two people in it using a automatic pistol gets and is convicted and sentenced for three years person b with a similar criminal record robs a service station with two people in it using a revolver gets and is convicted since they used two different types of handgun are comparisons totally meaningless say you drop a pencil to see if the gravity still works my cats are always testing this they don t trust me to pay the gravity bill on time you have never dropped a pencil at that exact time of the century before so all previous evidence is meaningless or would you be surprised if it flew out the window instead of hitting the desk david thornley who has no replica world series rings but does have tickets to the world series in the metrodome
rec.sport.baseball	re game length was re braves update in article apr vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes however what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games i agree with nick what s the big deal about long games if you want to watch baseball there s that much more baseball to watch and yes baseball includes the space between plays as well as the plays themselves i hesitate to make assumptions about other people when they write but neither of you two sound as though you have kids and you may not have spouses either consider a night game starting at pm est it was last year but cleveland showed what i thought was good sense in pushing it back i go and i m into it until pm minimum extra innings could put me well past midnight even without extra innings if the score is beyond i can t see my family that night at all if the next day is a workday i may have to bag that as well further the later the game goes the colder it gets on the shore of lake erie all that stuff enters into my consideration of even going to a game if you say you don t care about whether the game is sped up impo you are saying you don t care where the time goes and that the game is for people who don t have families and don t have to get up for work the next day rg i can play me better than anyone there s only one of me barry bonds on playing himself in two movies
rec.sport.baseball	re bob knepper was damn right in article qv aginn ba shelley u washington edu tannerg hardy u washington edu glenn tanner writes fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes in article apr leland stanford edu dkeisen leland stanford edu dave eisen writes why did i get sucked into this in article apr news yale edu austin jacobs writes don t you guys think so i mean c mon what the heck are women doing even thinking of getting into baseball they cause so many problems just assuming you re serious i guess you d be surprised to hear that us guys don t think so i would guess that a tiny fraction of of the folks reading your post agree with it i kind of doubt that even you agree with it sheesh i agree with you here dave anyone for starting rec sports idiots for guys like austin no but i am for starting rec sports idiots for people who respond to obvious flamebait nah let s reserve rec sports idiots for people who post obvious flamebait like yourself if someone posts something as controversial not to mention idiotic as what austin posted in a widely accessed newsgroup someone should challenge the statement there is a school of thought that suggests that silence consent whereas this idea may not apply to everything in life it certainly should apply to a forum of public discussion which r s b is if you ve been reading r s b lately you ll find that even elementary school children have had access to our postings alibet in an edited form it s making me think a little more carefully about some of the things i post in conclusion if someone like austin wants to post his drivel in some obscure newsgroup that i don t read fine he s got the right to rant rave and drool all he wants to in the name of free speech but if he drools in a newsgroup that i read then i will support the right of anyone to provide rebuttal to his drooling now of course you don t have to read any of this and if you want to cut down on flames then don t post flamebait you don t have to respond to flames either saves cyberspace sheesh eric
rec.sport.baseball	mlb standings and scores for tue apr th note saturday april th s scores should be sent out by this coming friday mlb standings and scores for tuesday april th including yesterday s games national west won lost pct gb last streak home road san francisco giants won houston astros won atlanta braves lost los angeles dodgers won san diego padres won colorado rockies lost cincinnati reds won national east philadelphia phillies won pittsburgh pirates lost st louis cardinals lost new york mets lost chicago cubs lost montreal expos won florida marlins lost american west won lost pct gb last streak home road texas rangers won california angels lost minnesota twins lost chicago white sox lost seattle mariners won oakland athletics lost kansas city royals won american east boston red sox won detroit tigers lost toronto blue jays won new york yankees lost milwaukee brewers won cleveland indians lost baltimore orioles won yesterday s scores idle teams listed in alphabetical order national league american league houston astros ppd chicago white sox chicago cubs rain boston red sox atlanta braves idle toronto blue jays cincinnati reds idle cleveland indians colorado rockies idle seattle mariners florida marlins idle detroit tigers los angeles dodgers idle baltimore orioles idle montreal expos idle california angels idle new york mets idle kansas city royals idle philadelphia philliesidle milwaukee brewers idle pittsburgh pirates idle minnesota twins idle st louis cardinals idle new york yankees idle san francisco giants idle oakland athletics idle san diego padres idle texas rangers idle joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
rec.sport.baseball	mlb scores correction there is a correction to the note i posted for today s update this is how it read note saturday april th s scores should be sent out by this coming friday of course last saturday was april th people who requested those scores should receive them by friday the rd thanks joe hernandez joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
rec.sport.baseball	re devon white why is he not playing in article c r rt fir helios physics utoronto ca wyllie helios physics utoronto ca andrew wyllie writes in article apr bmerh bnr ca hsslee bnr ca writes devon white has not been in the blue jays line up lately does anybody know why he is not playing during one of the games last week wednesday both white and sprauge were not playing because they had the flu i guess white is probably still sick i hope white gets back in the lineup soon watching darrin jackson play center is painful andrew i heard he had a strained abdominal muscle or something like that dan brekke
rec.sport.baseball	re hbp bb big cat kubey sgi com ken kubey said i suppose a foul ball machine like brett butler is pretty valuable but i d rather watch and root for the lower obp guys who can actually hit the ball now this is a legitimate point baseball is entertainment and i have no quarrel with people who find certain styles of play more entertaining than others regardless of their win value personally i m a huge fan of the slug bunt i doubt it s a high percentage play but i get a big kick out of it i am willing to live with the bad consequences in exchange for the fun of course this is not the same as claiming as some do that galarraga s inability to defer gratification isn t hurting his team because he isn t paid to walk or is an rbi guy or whatever and finally i d like to point out that many high obp guys draw their walks more because pitchers are afraid to throw a strike to them than because they have a great eye i m not sure i used to think this was true but more and more i m becoming convinced that it s the other way around among players with the physical ability to hit the ball real hard the patient ones are the ones who get the chance to do it a lot let s break down the four basic categories of hitter according to whether they are power threats and whether they walk a lot power no power patient frank thomas brett butler barry bonds ozzie smith mark mcgwire craig grebeck babe ruth miller huggins ted williams billy hamilton rickey henderson eddie joost joe morgan mike hargrove impatient ernie banks ozzie guillen dave kingman shawon dunston joe carter andres thomas george bell jose lind kirby puckett devon white etc as far as i can tell all the categories are full it really looks like the two are independent nobody could possibly be afraid of craig grebeck at the plate and yet he walks quite a lot part of that undoubtedly is being small of stature but surely major league pitchers can hit that sort of target at least times out of randy milligan is an even better example he s only shown noticeable power for one partial season but he walks all over the place despite his huge strike zone david m tate dtate pitt edu greetings sir with bat not quick member iie orsa tims sabr hands not soft eye not discerning and in denver they call you a slugger the big catullus galarraga and compare you to my own mattingly
rec.sport.baseball	predicted runs from lineup some time back in this newsgroup i seem to recall a thread about predicting the runs a given lineup of batters could be expected to score given the appropriate statistical alphabet soup for these hitters obp slg avg bat length hat size day of the week weather conditions etc anyway was i dreaming or is there some such animal my apologies if this has been covered recently i probably get to read of the articles posted here no time many thanks in advance scotty m scott walsh scottwa pogo wv tek com tektronix inc graphics printing imaging products ibd
rec.sport.baseball	re braves update in article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes that he d been thrown out and gant had a legitimate beef about the pitch that was called a strike a reasonable umpire would not have tried to force gant back into the box in that situation a reasonable umpire would do as he s been instructed to do this season get the batters back in the box sooner to try to cut down on the ridiculous length of games i for one am glad to see this happen and hope more umpires will do as hirschbeck did in instructing the pitcher to pitch if the batter won t get back in the box so what if the previous strike call was bogus it s in the past it can t be changed get back in there and deal with the next pitch sorry sherri but i can t agree with this particular incident while i m all for cutting down the number of chain rattles and other examples of rampant hargroving there was a difference here since time immemorial batters have complained about calls so have pitchers and catchers usually nothing happens unless the league notified teams this year about not allowing complaints hirschbeck was acting against expectations it s not as if gant was in hirschbeck s face gant said something about the call stepped out of the box and turned away from hirschbeck as a hitter alibet of little consequence but with a decent eye whenever receiving the short end of the stick on a questionable call i d want a moment or two out of the box if for no other reason than to rethink the strike zone based on the experience of the last pitch and if i was really angry at the ump i d rather turn away and catch my breath than turn to him and say something that might get me tossed especially at a key moment in the game when gant turned away hirschbeck immediately motioned for gant to step into the box imo at this point in time hirschbeck was determined to show gant exactly who was in charge of this game gant wasn t dawdling he hadn t had a chance to dawdle and hirschbeck was simply exercising a power play gant resisted as many of us might to what we thought was an unreasonable request and hirschbeck called for the pitch at that point cox came out on the field the pitch was thrown and many other braves left the dugout cox was tossed protecting his player i was pleasantly surprised that gant kept his cool enough to stay in the game it s a small sample size but based on what i saw in that game mark hirschbeck has a hair trigger temper and a need to play god on the field not good qualities for an umpire i will keep my eyes open for future appearances of hirschbeck in the future in order to improve my sample size imo any game where you remember the name of the umpire was a bad game for the umpire eric roush
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes we cannot isolate the total contribution that any player at any position makes to his team s victory and since we cannot make that measure with complete confidence of objectivity and since there is no absolutely necessary reason to make that kind of subjective measurement i submit to you that it is pointless if a gm is trying to put together a winning team he might consider era he might consider attitude he might consider past performance in key situations but what he is looking for is not the player that he considers the best the gm is looking for the player he thinks can help his team win we cannot isolate completely roger but we can make a pretty good estimate i won t claim to split hairs and say that we can really measure who was better robby alomar or carlos baerga last year the difference is too close to call but larkin and lee clemens and morris the differences are too great there in your measure of the game why should a team that has just won it all ever replace a single player since they are now clearly best how can they do better yet every team can always find someplace where they beleive they can improve the team they can always find a player a little better than one they already have btw by my definitions the best player is the one who does the most things to help his team win i will allow that this could vary depending on who else is on the team by having aptitudes one team needs more than others baseball is a team game but it is made of individual talents it is absurd to judge the success or failure of an individual by the success or failure of his teammates whom he did not choose at least in most cases morris won last year because he played on a team with joe carter robby alomar tom henke juan guzman john olerud et al clemens lost because he was surrounded by such lesser performers as herm winninham luis rivera and jeff reardon to define the quality of the team as a sum of its components as i do albeit imperfectly is a lesser error than defining the quality of an individual as the mean quality of the team as my reading of your arguments suggests you do clay d
rec.sport.baseball	re let s play the name game in article apr newshub ariel yorku ca cs ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes how about changing team names post your choices here i ll start how about the baltimore baseblazers san francisco quakes pittsburgh sellouts shawn go rangers
rec.sport.baseball	phils spot on espn a few weeks ago i posted about the phillies team personalities did anyone see the espn feature on the phils on monday night john kruk had a great line he was talking about people on the team always playing and not sitting out because of a minor injury he said if they do they know we ll kick their ass the time i saw in was in the afternoon and it was not bleeped when i saw it at they bleeped ass mitch williams talked about the team being a bunch of throwaways from other teams and that is why they are so close kruk said that they all get along this year last year he said they hated the pitchers i assume he was joking but he always keeps a straight face when he talks oh what a team rob koffler you live day to day and rkoffler ux cso uiuc edu dream about tomorrow don henley
rec.sport.baseball	re ottawa lynx info wanted cchb musict mcgill ca cchb writes the current roster of the lynx someone on the minor league mailing list probably does home game schedule of the lynx i do but i don t have time to type the whole thing in i don t mind looking up specific date ranges or individual games when i can but there are limits besides this stuff is easy to find baseball america puts out a book called the directory it s us has every team s data and schedule in it if i were to type in the whole scheudle i d just be spending a lot of time infringing on their copyright folks who are interested in the minors should check out my minor league list see the signature and folks who are tracking down team schedules should chec out the ba directory you can order it from i find it indispenable chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants a san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.baseball	re braves giants fls keynes econ duke edu forrest smith writes the situation with the giants bleachers is a case in point for the need for a commissioner okay i m curious why are you expectin the commissioner to fly in and stand on the pitchers mound to yell at the fans to sit down or what chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants a san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.baseball	i am right no i am right was re bob knepper was damn right in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes in article qv aginn ba shelley u washington edu tannerg hardy u washington edu glenn tanner writes no but i am for starting rec sports idiots for people who respond to obvious flamebait nah let s reserve rec sports idiots for people who post obvious flamebait like yourself funny i didn t realize mr tanner brought up bob knepper v pam postema in the first place thought it was someone named jacobs if someone posts something as controversial not to mention idiotic as what austin posted in a widely accessed newsgroup someone should challenge the statement why if a statement is truly idiotic and is universally thought so the challenge is a waste of panting further challenges that have nothing yes nothing to do with baseball are wasting others time you got a problem with what bob knepper thinks let s hear it in some sort of categorical manner actually i question whether either knepper or postema aren t old news at this point although what i have read of postema s book is interesting there is a school of thought that suggests that silence consent i agree this far whereas this idea may not apply to everything in life it certainly should apply to a forum of public discussion sez you if you ve been reading r s b lately you ll find that even elementary school children have had access to our postings albeit in an edited form it s making me think a little more carefully about some of the things i post that does not come out in what you say down the road here in conclusion if someone like austin wants to post his drivel in some obscure newsgroup that i don t read fine he s got the right to rant rave and drool all he wants to in the name of free speech but if he drools in a newsgroup that i read then i will support the right of anyone to provide rebuttal to his drooling yo even elementary school children have had access to our postings albeit in an edited form you want them to hear you talk like this don t you want people who come to this group to talk baseball to think you like to do the same or do you want them to think you re some politically correct demagogue who s oh so sensitive ho hum plus you re here limiting free speech to some obscure newsgroup that i don t read what bs you got a problem with what jacobs says what knepper thinks all you have to do is defeat it with better ideas more and better speech yours is the easy way out as for knepper ever notice how sometimes these guys will say just about any darn thing that pops in their heads when a mike is shoved in front of them you know that often the best copy for the news is the one that isn t pre prepared they know knepper has controversial ideas about women they pop some question about postema an interesting related question would be whether the two ever appeared in the same game off the top of my head i guess no if my guess is right knepper popped off about something that had nothing to do with him and postema gets a book for it and he doesn t now of course you don t have to read any of this and if you want to cut down on flames then don t post flamebait you don t have to respond to flames either saves cyberspace now why didn t i think of that rg i can play me better than anyone there s only one of me barry bonds on playing himself in two movies
rec.sport.baseball	re bonilla thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes in article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes quick name a light hitting black outfielder or b who lasted years in the bigs i bet you can name two dozen white ones otis nixon stole bases ok he s still light hitting but baseball managers don t think so they think he like omar moreno before him is a perfect leadoff man awesome defense well yeah on the other hand for the first few years of his career he looked like herb washington dan gladden doesn t seem to suck defensively either darnell coles he s still around because of his when he hit hr yeah and how many of the white guys played one year into a long career it s actually not an uncommon phenomenon and how long a guy hangs around based on one good year seems like a reasonable question to explore on a racial basis billy hatcher we ll see if he s still around in for his tenth year hey he plays for lou gorman doesn t he ok so it s eight years ok i admit to taking a quick browse through the major league handbook but only after the first or oh and there s the all time light hitting black outfielder lou brock look it up and curt flood cesar geronimo cesar cedeno brock suffered from otis nixon disease but he wasn t perceived as light hitting neither was curt flood cesar cedeno was not light hitting good point on cedeno otoh i haven t seen that extensive list of year dan gladdens either there really aren t that many players altogether who hang around for years even if they re reasonably good mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com may you live in interesting times chinese curse
rec.sport.baseball	re braves update in article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes a reasonable umpire would do as he s been instructed to do this season get the batters back in the box sooner to try to cut down on the ridiculous length of games i for one am glad to see this happen and hope more umpires will do as hirschbeck did in instructing the pitcher to pitch if the batter won t get back in the box a reasonable umpire would have recognized that ron gant was disturbed with the call a reasonable umpire would have realized that there was a run game in progress with two outs in the ninth what ron gant did was try to regain his composure what a normal baseball player would have done would have been to get into a heated argument with the umpire and since you can t argue balls and strikes he would have been ejected from the game ron gant by trying to avoid such a conflict was penalized for showing some restraint incidentally a reasonable home plate umpire would not have been so resistant to seeking the appeal to the first base umpire as gant requested if the home plate umpire had appealed to first the first base umpire could have wrung up the strike and gant would not have been so upset if the call had been a ball and the catcher had requested the appeal it is likely the home plate umpire would have asked for the help finally the entire game was pretty much a mockery of the so called efforts to speed up the game the game was played very quickly it was just at hours when the stuff happened in the ninth and the only delays in the entire game had been the result of actions by the umpires other than deion having to clean garbage off the field econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke s to my correspondents my email has been changed e l my new address is fls econ duke edu d f if mail bounces try fls raphael acpub duke edu u
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in c sfve aq murdoch acc virginia edu drw l delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker writes we cannot isolate completely roger but we can make a pretty good estimate i won t claim to split hairs and say that we can really measure who was better robby alomar or carlos baerga last year the difference is too close to call but larkin and lee clemens and morris the differences are too great there in your measure of the game why should a team that has just won it all ever replace a single player since they are now clearly best how can they do better yet every team can always find someplace where they beleive they can improve the team they can always find a player a little better than one they already have btw by my definitions the best player is the one who does the most things to help his team win i will allow that this could vary depending on who else is on the team by having aptitudes one team needs more than others well then given your definition of best is it not conceivable that alfredo griffin could bring something to a team that that team needs to win while larkin might not have that something the team needs would griffin then be better than larkin baseball is a team game but it is made of individual talents it is absurd to judge the success or failure of an individual by the success or failure of his teammates whom he did not choose at least in most cases morris won last year because he played on a team with joe carter robby alomar tom henke juan guzman john olerud et al clemens lost because he was surrounded by such lesser performers as herm winninham luis rivera and jeff reardon to define the quality of the team as a sum of its components as i do albeit imperfectly is a lesser error than defining the quality of an individual as the mean quality of the team as my reading of your arguments suggests you do no i am not trying to define the quality of an individual at least not for the purpose of ranking them toronto won with olerud they might have won with fielder they might not have won with thomas detroit might have won with thomas chicago might have won with fielder you can t rank these individuals you can only look at who might contribute more to the team effort which is winning the ws thomas could not have contributed to that goal any more than olerud so i cannot say that olerud is less of a player cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.baseball	how to speed up games marginally realistic you want to speed up ballgames enforce the two minutes between innings as it is many fields are allowing three minutes between them fifteen seconds before tv commercials are gone to thirty or so before action begins upon the return to the game two minutes last out to first pitch or a ball is called don t grant time to batters just because they want it they may get pissed at first but they ll get in line once anything the pitcher throws while they re adjusting their wristbands is a strike mandate a rule permitting only n seconds between pitches the current rule is too lenient and then enforce it fifteen seconds is more than enough time if the pitch isn t released in call it a ball and restart the clock baseball games take about in the nl and just a shade under hours in the al that s just too damn long i don t like to play in hour games much less watch a game for that long my butt falls asleep and if i m watching on tv i ll channel surf between pitches catching colorized versions of mr ed leave it to beaver and those wacky nieporents on nick at nite gary huckabay you think that s loud enough a hole movie rights well if you re having trouble hearing it sir available thru i d be happy to turn it up for you i didn t ted frank know that many people your age liked king s x
rec.sport.baseball	re braves giants in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes just a refresher the baseballs came on the field during sunday s slugfest when a giant s patron refused to throw an atlanta hr back the garbage started hitting the field well before the sunday game it started on thursday or friday i can t recall which games i didn t watch on tbs deion was getting pelted with trash the whole time it seemed the announcers talked about the change in the seating in the bleachers and how that made it easier for the events that transpired i actually thought at the start of the sunday slugfest that since it was a sunday daygame the crowd would be a little different more refined surprise econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke s to my correspondents my email has been changed e l my new address is fls econ duke edu d f if mail bounces try fls raphael acpub duke edu u
rec.sport.baseball	re game length was re braves update nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes in article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes stuff about ron gant incident deleted a reasonable umpire would do as he s been instructed to do this season get the batters back in the box sooner to try to cut down on the ridiculous length of games i for one am glad to see this happen i agree that hirschbeck was just doing what he was instructed to do and also that gant should have listened to him however what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games you are the first person non mediot i have seen endorse this policy i have no problem with the length of games at all and am tired of the espn crowd and other announcers bitching about it i have never been in a ballpark filled with people looking at their watches and shouting hurry up if i cough up big bucks for a ticket i don t mind a game that last more than i really don t understand it games are longer now for several reasons stuff deleted maybe i am just a ne er do well with nothing better to do but i would like to hear reasons why the longer games upset you well i don t want shorter games per se but i would like for them to stop wasting so much time during games the gant incident is a perfect example when a guy comes to the plate he should be up there to hit not show off or show up the umpire which is clearly what gant was doing i feel like writing a fan letter to hirschbeck mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com for purposes of action nothing is more useful than narrowness of thought combined with energy of will henri frederick amile
rec.sport.baseball	re bonilla in article apr midway uchicago edu thf midway uchicago edu writes gary varsho halfway there and unlikely to make it of the way there wait a minute i could swear that varsho is white sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	re usa mcweekly stats in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira writes uh bill james doesn t sell statistics he sells books with statistics but he is not in the business of providing stats like elias stats howe baseball workshop etc are bill james is however very closely tied to stats sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	re braves update in article news duke edu fls keynes econ duke edu forrest smith writes argument over reasonable players and umpires deleted incidentally a reasonable home plate umpire would not have been so resistant to seeking the appeal to the first base umpire as gant requested if the home plate umpire had appealed to first the first base umpire could have wrung up the strike and gant would not have been so upset if the call had been a ball and the catcher had requested the appeal it is likely the home plate umpire would have asked for the help yes but the baseball rules say you can only appeal a ball and not a strike there was no decision made by the umpire regarding an appeal once he called it a strike the call could not be changed i thought that the umpire did the right thing pablo iglesias pi ruth ece jhu edu
rec.sport.baseball	re game length was re braves update in article apr wvnvms wvnet edu nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes in article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes however what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games you are the first person non mediot i have seen endorse this policy i have no problem with the length of games at all and am tired of the espn crowd and other announcers bitching about it i have never been in a ballpark filled with people looking at their watches and shouting hurry up if i cough up big bucks for a ticket i don t mind a game that last more than i really don t understand it major league baseball is trying to expand its appeal to people with shorter attention spans i e the football crowd invariably all the arguments from people who don t like to watch baseball on t v say the same thing the games are too long and too boring baseball is trying to find a way to shorten the games for wider t v appeal if you look at it though baseball games last around the same amount of time as football games the difference is that there is more action in that duration in football games perhaps if there were more action in baseball games you would get more of those fans to tune in anyway coming up with a solution to make baseball more appealing to a bigger crowd is going to be difficult on soapbox yet another reason to get a commisioner now since it s obvious that ruling baseball by comittee works about as fast as a snail race in nebraska off soapbox steve steve conroy conroy terminus saic com i m gone man solid gone science applications baloo international corporation
rec.sport.baseball	re how to speed up games marginally realistic in article c she lkf ucdavis edu ez chip ucdavis edu gary built like villanueva huckabay writes you want to speed up ballgames enforce the two minutes between innings as it is many fields are allowing three minutes between them fifteen seconds before tv commercials are gone to thirty or so before action begins upon the return to the game two minutes last out to first pitch or a ball is called don t grant time to batters just because they want it they may get pissed at first but they ll get in line once anything the pitcher throws while they re adjusting their wristbands is a strike mandate a rule permitting only n seconds between pitches the current rule is too lenient and then enforce it fifteen seconds is more than enough time if the pitch isn t released in call it a ball and restart the clock i ve only ever seen this called once back around i think that steve carlton was pitching on the other hand i am not sure how much effect this would have it seems that most of the time lost is when there are runners on base and the rule does not cover this i have wondered why a pitcher is given pitches when he enters the game let s be serious the relief pitcher has normally been throwing out in the bullpen for a few minutes does he really need more pitches pablo iglesias pi ruth ece jhu edu
rec.sport.baseball	re game length was re braves update ecaxron ariel lerc nasa gov ron graham writes i hesitate to make assumptions about other people when they write but neither of you two sound as though you have kids and you may not have spouses either i wonder why you say that i don t see why having a spouse and or kids would have anything to do with it it might if you brought your kids to the game and wanted them to get home in time to get to bed at a reasonable hour in which case i d probably decide to take my kids to games on weekends as many people do or else be prepared to leave the game early but from what you say later on you don t bring your kids or your spouse to the game as it happens i have a husband but no kids and my husband usually attends games with me extra innings could put me well past midnight even without extra innings if the score is beyond i can t see my family that night at all if the next day is a workday i may have to bag that as well i can see it s a problem if you don t bring your wife to the ballgame but that s a problem even if the game goes a trim hours as far as bagging work the next day i don t really understand why that s necessary unless going to a game also means that you consume vast quantities of beer i note that this is the case for many guys if you don t think you can get up to go to work after a long evening out then don t have long evenings out during the week all that stuff enters into my consideration of even going to a game if you say you don t care about whether the game is sped up impo you are saying you don t care where the time goes and that the game is for people who don t have families and don t have to get up for work the next day look if i pay between and apiece for tickets plus for parking plus spending my time and energy driving to and from boston plus spending additional money on concessions etc at the ballpark then i see going to a game as a considerable investment of time and money i can t afford to go to a lot of games hence going to a game is a big deal like going to a play or an opera maybe you have more money than i do and can go to games all year long so it s not such a big deal for you but i m not interested in having games sped up any more than i want to have die walkure cut down to a convenient weeknight version of two hours if i felt that going to a night game during the week would interfere with my family life or my work life then i d choose to go to a weekend game impo heather hhenderson vax clarku edu
rec.sport.baseball	re game length was re braves update in article apr wvnvms wvnet edu nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes i agree that hirschbeck was just doing what he was instructed to do and also that gant should have listened to him however what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games you are the first person non mediot i have seen endorse this policy i wholeheartedly endorse it i have no problem with the length of games at all and am tired of the espn crowd and other announcers bitching about it i have never been in a ballpark filled with people looking at their watches and shouting hurry up if i cough up big bucks for a ticket i don t mind a game that last more than i really don t understand it haven t been to many a s games have you seriously i don t mind a baseball game that lasts a long time if it lasts a long time because there is good baseball being played however i don t like games that take hours because there s a lot of dead time going on in that game i don t find anything exciting about watching batter or pitcher wander around between pitches or watching the catcher make a slow walk to the mound or watching lots of pitcher changes for no good reason whitey herzog used to be the master of this the game could be way out of reach and he d still be making switches for platoon advantage i want to see the game not people standing around i don t really enjoy watching nfl football games in person for example because there s so much dead time you don t really notice how much dead time there is if you watch it on television because they re busy showing you replays i don t like that college basketball games have so many time outs at the end of the game the ncaa has made some moves to try to alleviate this problem for next year they re going to stop the clock after made baskets late in games next year and they re going to a second clock there s also a difference in how tolerant i am of long games if i m watching them on the tube and if i m going there in person for me going to an a s game has become a major commitment of time one that i m not willing to make that often the length of their games is costing the a s revenue from me sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	re braves update in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes since time immemorial batters have complained about calls so have pitchers and catchers however batters didn t use to go for strolls after bad calls to the degree they do now unless the league notified teams this year about not allowing complaints hirschbeck was acting against expectations everyone was told of the new emphasis on speeding up games the rule that hirschbeck invoked has been in the books a long time it s not as if gant was in hirschbeck s face nobody including hirschbeck ever said he was when gant turned away hirschbeck immediately motioned for gant to step into the box imo at this point in time hirschbeck was determined to show gant exactly who was in charge of this game gant wasn t dawdling he hadn t had a chance to dawdle and hirschbeck was simply exercising a power play that s your perhaps colored by your partisanship of the braves perception hirschbeck s view was that gant was heading off for a long walk and in accordance with his instructions concerning speeding games up directed him into the batter s box gant resisted as many of us might to what we thought was an unreasonable request and hirschbeck called for the pitch the point is based on the rulebook and the umpires instructions it was not an unreasonable request the braves were already upset imo any game where you remember the name of the umpire was a bad game for the umpire had gant done as instructed you wouldn t have remembered the name of the umpire sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes btw by my definitions the best player is the one who does the most things to help his team win i will allow that this could vary depending on who else is on the team by having aptitudes one team needs more than others well then given your definition of best is it not conceivable that alfredo griffin could bring something to a team that that team needs to win while larkin might not have that something the team needs no i do not find this conceivable i also cannot conceive of the possibility that there is any hypothetical team which morris would help more than clemens would griffin then be better than larkin given your premise yes but you are alone in your ability to conceive of that premise valentine
rec.sport.baseball	a modest request i am finding the volume of stuff on rec sport baseball overwhelming ca posts day an effect of this is that a backlog builds up and many posts get dumped from my system i could probably fix that but don t have the time to read them all in any event my guess is that mine is a common problem i have some ideas that would help each person generally post no more than one article day limit the extent to which previous posts are reproduced in posts don t post mindless woofs or anti woofs e g the jays are best or the jays suck don t respond to mindless posts e g jack morris is a better pitcher than frank viola because he s won a world series i know that you can use the n key to get by these posts but they bump interesting posts from my disk use the goddamn shift key etc it makes your posts easier to read name jim rising mail dept zoology univ toronto toronto ontario canada m s a uucp uunet attcan utzoo rising bitnet rising zoo utoronto ca
rec.sport.baseball	the mystery of ron gant o any of you experts want to analyze ron gant is his early season slump because he is still swinging his bat the way he was last year trying to hit to all fields etc or has he changed his swing back to the old gant and is just in a small early season slump is his spot int he lineup even secure especially the way he has been hitting msilverm nyx cs du edu go cubs one likes to believe in the freedom of baseball geddy lee
rec.sport.baseball	ray lankford question does anybody know what is going on with lankford i know he was out for a few games with a slight injury but since he has beenback and before the injury for that matter he has been really struggling at the plate and on the basepaths whereis the ray lankford we saw last year msilverm nyx cs du edu go cubs one likes to believe in the freedom of baseball geddy lee
rec.sport.baseball	re relative value of players in article c ro h lww world std com jle world std com joe m leonard writes i always thought that a reasonable means of measuring value between players was to attempt to determine if a team would trade one for another the major problem with this analysis is that it ignores age even if morris were performing as well as clemens right now and were likely to this season nobody would trade clemens for morris straight up because clemens has more of his career left sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	best first basemen don mattingly is the best first baseman in the history of baseball always has been always will be
rec.sport.baseball	re braves giants a case study of their weaknesses in article apr bnlux bnl gov kyee bnlux bnl gov kenton yee writes sunday s game exposed the weaknesses of both teams quite clearly and that the braves are vulnerable braves weaknesses a weak defense a couple of bond s doubles and a bloop by clayton would ve been caught by a better outfield b weak bullpen ha ha their closers are bedrosian and howell not an astute observation this is a straw bullpen the lefties stanton mercker are strong and wohlers is down learning a new pitch the bullpen is fine probably superior c over reliance on pendleton a pendleton slump becomes a team slump also false gant nixon justice hunter blauser present a decent enough offense everyone is slumping except blauser not just pendleton btw what is the story with brian hunter is he in the dog house paul collacchi
rec.sport.baseball	texas rangers roster please help i need a little help from a texas rangers expert i was at yankee stadium sunday texas rout with my kids we wandered out to the outfield during rangers batting practice and i caught a ball tossed into the stands actually wrestled some guy a bit i might add by on the rangers who is he looked like a bullpen assistant type youngish i think he was not in the roster listed in the yankee scorecard any ideas please e mail as i haven t been reading r s b regularly thanks bob name bob dorin company kendall square research email dorin ksr com ksr dorin
rec.sport.baseball	re how to speed up games marginally realistic pablo a iglesias pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu wrote i have wondered why a pitcher is given pitches when he enters the game let s be serious the relief pitcher has normally been throwing out in the bullpen for a few minutes does he really need more pitches if the relief pitcher didn t get pitches there wouldn t be enough time to play hit the road jack the iron city relief pitcher commercial the announcers to detail to us exactly what drove the previous one from the game a detailed biography both personal and statistical of the new guy throwing his pitches get really cool super slo mo pictures for diamond vision to put up by said pitchers name and stats caleb
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish broadcasters was jewish baseball players let s not forget al michaels of do you believe in miracles fame jim
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in qvag innsvo lynx unm edu kbos carina unm edu k mitchell bose writes in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes manuel lee is better than jeff blauser again if you had lee on your team last year you would be wearing a ring this year er no er yes if manny lee was on your team last year your team would have been the toronto blue jays my team is the albuquerque leftturns if manny lee were on my team i would not be wearing a ring nor would he if however i were on manny lee s team again if manny lee was on your team last year your team would not have been the albuquerque leftturns it would have been the toronto blue jays the toronto blue jays i might well be wearing a ring not that that s such a big deal everybody got a ws ring from the jays win that s the whole point isn t it clemens didn t get a ring but morris did in the same way the blue jays did not win because jack morris was on the team jack morris won because he was on the blue jays it was a team effort not an individual one exactly and morris was part of the team would the jays have won with clemens we will never know but we do know that the jays won with morris so how could you possibly say that clemens had a better year no pitcher in baseball could have had a better year than morris had last year cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.baseball	the real way to speed up ballgames the real way to speed up ballgames is for each home park owner to offer the following schedule of bonuses to players on both teams for all players who participated in the game offer for each minutes less than hours the game took i e if the game only took hours each player gets a bonus of for all pitchers throwing or more full innings in the game extrapolate the number of pitches or attempted pickoffs to the number they would have thrown in a full innings and offer for each number less than if the pitcher throws a complete game with pitches and throws to first he would get i suspect you could finance this the same way presidential campaigns are paid for offer each fan a checkoff on his or her ticket that says i want of the price of this ticket to go towards fast game bonuses domain tahorsley csd harris com usmail tom horsley uucp uunet hcx tahorsley kingbird circle delray beach fl censorship is the only form of obscenity wait i forgot government tobacco subsidies
rec.sport.baseball	re let s play the name game nl chicago wait til next years new york bunch of egos with no chemistrys philedelphia overacheivers until mitch williams blows games pittsburg cheapskates montreal canadiens love that name st louis cardinals how boring miami marlins try telling tampa stpete that the marlins are florida s san diego she s going down men and children firsters los angeles disables listers san francisco get past number five and you are fines cincinatti underacheivers atlanta bills colorado pitching is of baseballers houston astonomicals al new york steinbrenners boston wow we re in firsters cleveland good hit no pitchers detroit lions hey they score every game also toronto god does jack morris stinkers baltimore we have a great park and a bankrupt owners milwaukee don t drink the water drink the beer insteaders kansas city oh god not againers oakland gezz did the eck blow a saves texas bashers california we won t win but we ll sure as hell tryers seattle griffeys chicago we l find a way to lose agains minnesota marshmallow domers msilverm nyx cs du edu go cubs one likes to believe in the freedom of baseball geddy lee
rec.sport.baseball	re jays darrin jackson is a nightmare in article apr r node hub org shadow r node hub org jay chu writes jackson is a bum and i thought the jays were smart to get rid of gruber now we get equally bad i m frustrated pat gillick is over rated sure he did some good moves in the past but releasing wells although his temper sucks but he s better than morris stewart dayley if the jays were dumping salaries to keep mill jackson dayley should be the one to go before wells of course they dumped dayley but it s too late since dayley s salary was guarenteed with wells the jays were only on the hook for of it give jackson a break he lost about pounds with that flu he had when he was traded wells was already claimed by the tigers era with wins also the jimmy key and winfield situations pissed the hell outta me would you see a championship club wanting to repeat so badly wanted to have such a i would rather have molitor than winfield winfield was just hogging all the credit and he was trying to soak the jays for a year guarenteed contract great turnover no way look at the pittsburg penguins they got some aging players but didn t make stupid trades to dump them cuz the fans love those players and they are still the core of the team anyways i just want to say that if the jays go below this season i won t be surprised i m not jumping off the bandwagon i m just talking smart baseball no matter what i m still going to see most of the jays games even though i m damn frustrated the jays pitching can only get better molitor and alomar haven t hit anything yet and the jays are still over gerald
rec.sport.baseball	let s play the name game how about changing team names post your choices here i ll start how about the baltimore baseblazers san francisco quakes shawn go rangers
rec.sport.baseball	re red sox mailing list query in article sfoixme wb qbulsk andrew cmu edu robert ward rw andrew cmu edu writes a friend in england is looking for a red sox mailing list if you know of such a list could you please send me mail with some info thank you bosox request world std com to mail to the list bosox world std com steve
rec.sport.baseball	yankee thoughts yes everyone seems to be in agreement that the yankees are finally moving in the right direction they should finish over this year and maybe even be in the pennent race in august however i would take back a few moves the jim abbott trade i think abbott is not only an inspirational person but a great pitcher also he could win the cy young this year but he won t because the right side of the yanks infield isn t good enough so why was this not a good trade jt snow how many rookies have been able to step in and immediately have the impact that he has had so far on the angels i know it s early but if you ve seen this kid hit field or talk you can just tell that he is going to be a tremendous player the yanks should have kept him what about mattingly you ask well it s great that the yanks have taken care of him and remained loyal but he s years older than snow and just doesn t have the same bat speed as before his back injury it s a shame but as a yankee fan who wants to see the best yankee team i d take snow over mattingly at first the yanks also gave up two promising propects with snow for abbott besides with domingo jean brien taylor wickman militello and sterling hitchcock they are just loaded with propects i know abbotts only but this was too much to give up i believe george forced this trade because he believes and he s right that abbott will be a big hit in ny however i d like to see the yankees build a baseball team not an amusement show wade boggs i live in boston and like wade a lot but his career is winding down and i would rather see the yanks start to develop a long term solution i e hensley muelins russ davis velarde besides wade just doesn t have any range what a shame about charlie hayes huh spike owen see wade boggs i d much rather see them develop dave silvestri or whoever wade and spike next to each other in the infield is going to raise the yankee staff era point and these guys are on the down sides of their careers danny tartabull yes he s put up some tremendous numbers and it s nice to think about what he could do if he were ever healthy all year but he never is we should expect games max out of him meanwhile gerald williams is playing at columbus and paul o neil is playing left field i believe o neil led nl outfielders in assists last year and tartabull is a poor defensive outfielder what i m basically getting at is the yanks are moving in the right direction but are not ready to win a pennent this year they should at the gm level be planning for a or world series this means getting the younger players experience in the majors now so they will be ready in a year or two i m afraid that all this stuff wreaks of george steinbrenner certainly the boggs deal was all george it looks like george is planning the right mix of veterans and young players to win a world series now the veterans are always available and can be added at any time like boston did this year develop the young players first then add the one or two veterans or in the yankees case just keep them let s all us yankee fans hope that george doesn t dismantle the terrific job stick and company have done building the yankee organization back into one of respect i m really afraid that he will trade whoever it takes to patch holes today relief pitching for example george must realize that the yankees rebuilding process is still one or two years away have patience george and we will all enjoy the future fire bucky and trade the kids and it s baseball hell for all loyal yankee fans for a long time sam i m not militello or millitello mandelbaum
rec.sport.baseball	re mlb nba in article rvesterm vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes in article mssc qrrz h netcom com mss netcom com mark singer says why would owners decrease ticket prices when they obviously get lots of people to pay the price they re asking i don t think that it is obvious that lots of people are willing to pay the price i m sure someone out there in net land has some facts about trends in attendance regarding percentage of capacity sold but even if the trends are relatively flat you have to consider what is happening on a team by team basis when the tv money dries up franchises will be seeking to supplant the lost revenues from alternative sources one of the best sources may be ticket sales example the dodgers the dodgers can count on a strong base of season ticket sales and probably believe that they have the ability to raise prices without hindering revenues i certainly think that is true example the padres they will be lucky to average fans a game this year if they raise prices less if they want to increase their overall revenue base the best thing they can do is put a winning team on the field but given that won t happen it won t they can probably make more money by lowering ticket prices and running frequent promotions will they do that i have no idea but they won t increase prices because it won t work for them even assuming that you have some strange power to make the owners decrease ticket prices that does not decrease the tv contract the only strange powers at work here are the forces of the market place each team s market is somewhat different and each owner is going to be faced with a unique set of circumstances about how to deal with those market forces as a buiness manager i would never want to lower my prices but sometimes that strategy is necessary and sometimes it works you have to consider everything if you want continued success the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	re game length was re braves update in article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes haven t been to many a s games have you there s also a difference in how tolerant i am of long games if i m watching them on the tube and if i m going there in person for me going to an a s game has become a major commitment of time one that i m not willing to make that often the length of their games is costing the a s revenue from me i stopped going to a s games some years ago while i still lived inthe bay area for exactly this reason i believe the length of their games has been institutionalized by larussa duncan they encourage their pitchers to be overly deliberate to throw to first often to study the catchers signals and so on and almost every a s hitter takes a step out of the box after every pitch this is not imo a coincidence this is planned and i hate it as for the gant situation i did not see the game or the replays but i do wonder what if gant had requested a time out would hirschbeck have been required to give it to him could he have denied the requst for all he the ump knew gant could have had dirt in his eye mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	moe berg npr this morning had an interview with linda mccarthy name possibly garbled by me an official historian for the cia she has won an emmy for research on moe berg for a tv documentary which i know from nothing but which sounds good she said that among other things berg was the principal spy for the oss cia s wwii precursor spying on axis atomic programs because of his physics background and language skills she said that during the war he met with heisenberg in switzerland and had instructions to shoot heisenberg if the germans were close to us in bomb research he concluded they were two years behind and didn t shoot him i have heard elsewhere that heisenberg deliberately misled the nazi bomb program but i don t know how reliable this is unfortunately npr didn t mention any kind of a book she s writing i d certainly buy it in case you re wondering about baseball relevance berg was a longtime mlb backup catcher he was a member of an mlb all star team that toured japan in presumably not because of his baseball prowess but because he was one of the few americans much less mlb players who spoke japanese photos he took of tokyo on that trip were later used to plan bombing raids according to mccarthy dave mb
rec.sport.baseball	game length was re braves update in article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes stuff about ron gant incident deleted a reasonable umpire would do as he s been instructed to do this season get the batters back in the box sooner to try to cut down on the ridiculous length of games i for one am glad to see this happen i agree that hirschbeck was just doing what he was instructed to do and also that gant should have listened to him however what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games you are the first person non mediot i have seen endorse this policy i have no problem with the length of games at all and am tired of the espn crowd and other announcers bitching about it i have never been in a ballpark filled with people looking at their watches and shouting hurry up if i cough up big bucks for a ticket i don t mind a game that last more than i really don t understand it games are longer now for several reasons more pitching changes more basestealing and throws to first etc i think a very small factor is the increased time it takes jose canseco deion sanders insert fancy showboat ballplayer here to arrange their jewelry prior to stepping in the batter s box my impression is that sportcasters and writers have made this an issue because they like shorter games they get to head back to hotel bar eat steaks get drunk tell stupid jokes with their pals and chase stewardesses around the bar sure they want the game over with print journalists have a slightly more legitimate reason for wanting faster games they have deadlines the espn guys on baseball tonight drive me crazy they constantly harp on this primarily because they often have to work late when the game goes longer than maybe i am just a ne er do well with nothing better to do but i would like to hear reasons why the longer games upset you as a parenthetical note it seems the league is in any case fighting a losing battle this year the increased offense thus far will certainly spoil any hopes of getting the games over with more quickly nick flynn
rec.sport.baseball	re dopson pitches first shutout red sox win cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes jmann vineland pubs stratus com jim mann writes john dopson pitched his first major league shutout as the red sox beat the white sox all sox runs came in the th inning which featured big hits from among others vaughan and greenwell the sox are now and the first team in the majors to win games yes it ll never last but god it s good while it s here someone told me this game started at cdt is this true who in their right mind would go to a game on monday at am well there s a holiday in massachusetts called patriots day three things happen on patriots day almost all businesses are closed the sox play a morning game and they run the boston marathon mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com there is nothing so deadly as not to hold up to people the opportunity to do great and wonderful things if we wish to stimulate them in an active way dr harold urey nobel laureate in chemistry
rec.sport.baseball	re hbp bb big cat kubey sgi com ken kubey writes and finally i d like to point out that many high obp guys draw their walks more because pitchers are afraid to throw a strike to them than because they have a great eye this comes up periodically and i just don t get it take for example mark mcgwire he walked times in if that s not a potential great example of what you re talking about then i don t know what is now let s look at what happens when mcgwire doesn t walk of the time he made an out of the time he hit a single of the time he hit a double of the time he hit a homer now you re pitching against mcgwire would you trade walks for homers double singles and outs i would why give him the base when you can get him out times out of then there are guys like alex cole who has a career obp even though he s never had a batting average over he did hit in ab in or hit a single home run yep that s right he s never hit a homer in ab s through the end of who d be afraid to throw a strike to him mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com i ve never been prejudiced by sex entertained yes but never prejudiced justice dan snow walter matthau
rec.sport.baseball	mvp revisited tim shippert recently posted summaries of last year s defensive average stats in terms of the linear weights estimated run value of defensive performances compared to league average i ve combined those with my position adjusted mlv numbers to come up with first approximation total run values for players last year we can use these as a springboard for reconsideration of the mvp award major caveats these numbers include no defensive park adjustment so if san diego really is just a question of odd scoring or gopher holes in the infield that will cause some inaccuracies the offensive numbers are position adjusted but not park adjusted so we have to deflate some and inflate others to be fair finally we still don t know what to do about catchers and i have no idea how to evaluate the defensive contributions of tony phillips and bip roberts having said that there are still some surprises let s look national league first all numbers in total runs contributed over the season player offense defense total sandberg bonds walker justice daulton larkin grace as i see it these are the legitimate mvp candidates from last season if you deflate sandberg s offense a wee bit for playing in wrigley you get essentially a dead heat had bonds been his usual defensive self it wouldn t have been close but that apparently wasn t the case darren daulton needs or more defensive runs to make up the offensive difference and i couldn t tell you whether that s easy or impossible a good case could be made for any of sandberg bonds or daulton as top dude my personal vote bonds sandberg daulton walker justice in the american league player offense defense total ventura martinez b anderson thomas r henderson raines tettleton ok let s see a show of hands how many of you picked robin ventura as top player in the al last year i certainly didn t but i d have a hard time arguing against him at this point yes i know these numbers are only approximate but that s a big gap between him and the guy also those of you who thought rickey henderson stank last year are out of your minds once again there s a catcher in the ointment if calling a game is as important as it might be runs is easy to make up or give away take a guess folks i don t think we can do any better than that my personal vote excluding pitchers ventura tettleton anderson martinez henderson i m a big frank thomas fan but i have to admit to a bias in favor of balanced offensive defensive contribution which should have a higher leverage in w l record than an equal shift that is lots of offense with negative defense for the record carlos baerga roberto alomar forget it it s a wash let me also take this opportunity to admit that i was grossly wrong regarding don mattingly s defense this past season don recovered brilliantly from his weak and to end up with mattingly runs which is clearly an above average first baseman however it s still runs behind mark mcgwire runs behind frank thomas and runs behind john olerud on the other hand it s ahead of rafael palmeiro cecil fielder and every other al first baseman not yet mentioned david m tate dtate pitt edu greetings sir with bat not quick member iie orsa tims sabr hands not soft eye not discerning and in denver they call you a slugger the big catullus galarraga and compare you to my own mattingly
rec.sport.baseball	red sox choke contest to encourage the great tradition of red sox negativism i am having a contest to predict the magnitude of the sox fall from their current heights you must decide first whether the sox will be at again at any time during this year then you must predict either their record the first time they re at if they are or their final record if they stay above the rest of the year so valentine s earlier prediction would go as resend it if you were serious val espn pointed out last night that the last sox start better than this was in when they finished in sixth place so email me your guess either at barring cs washington edu or directly replying to this post entries close pm pdt on wed apr dave mb
rec.sport.baseball	re game length was re braves update in article apr vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes however what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games you are the first person non mediot i have seen endorse this policy i have no problem with the length of games at all and am tired of the espn crowd and other announcers bitching about it i have never been in a ballpark filled with people looking at their watches and shouting hurry up if i cough up big bucks for a ticket i don t mind a game that last more than i really don t understand it i agree with nick what s the big deal about long games if you want to watch baseball there s that much more baseball to watch and yes baseball includes the space between plays as well as the plays themselves first a longer game in no way suggests more baseball to watch unless you include watching the grass grow as baseball the lengthier games are so because of batters stepping out of the box pitchers taking longer between pitches and excessive trips to the mound by managers and pitching coaches and while it s true that the gaps between plays can be interesting this is only true when they don t become extra long quickly pitched games can grab and hold your attention much better bring back the two hour baseball game and the three and a half hour golf game with it michael zimmers voice softhelp suppliers to software developers data
rec.sport.baseball	re lame dumb and useless question in article rvesterm vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes ok there are three balls on this batter the pitcher proceeds to bean the batter is that a walk or a hit by pitch bob vesterman a hbp but it reminds of my favorite apochryphal sp don drysdale story when ordered to intentionally walk a batter who had hot dogged on him in two previous at bats drysdale reared back with the first pitch and drilled him right in the ribs his manager came storming out of the dugout and yelled what did you do that for drysdale growled back what are you complaining for i saved you three pitches incidentally if this is true i d love to know the other people involved ted kury one man stands and the wall cracks and the wall suny at buffalo cracks and the wall cracks and the wall comes dept of economics crumbling down anthrax
rec.sport.baseball	re how to speed up games marginally realistic ez chip ucdavis edu gary built like villanova huckabay said baseball games take about in the nl and just a shade under hours in the al that s just too damn long i don t like to play in hour games much less watch a game for that long my butt falls asleep and if i m watching on tv i ll channel surf between pitches catching colorized versions of mr ed leave it to beaver and those wacky nieporents on nick at nite but gary for certain sofa tubers like myself this is an advantage i can watch the pirates on kbl the mets on wwor the braves on tbs and the mediots on espn at the same time without missing anything if something impressive happens i ll catch the replay so i see essentially games in hours instead of game in hours what a deal insert smileys as desired david m tate dtate pitt edu greetings sir with bat not quick member iie orsa tims sabr hands not soft eye not discerning and in denver they call you a slugger the big catullus galarraga and compare you to my own mattingly
rec.sport.baseball	re relative value of players in article c ro h lww world std com jle world std com joe m leonard writes before folks jump on me let me ask the net would the jays have won the al with a good pitcher from aaa in place of morris given his run support how about an average ml pitcher i can t believe that morris performance in the playoffs and series had a large positive impact on the jays performance i know it s very trendy nowadays to dump on morris but let s give credit where credit is due it is doubtful that the blue jays would have won the al east without morris last year when the team went for the month of august and all the other starters were being shelled and milwaukee was making a charge morris went with a pretty good era i can t remember exactly also let s not underestimate the importance his innings to save the bullpen every fifth day if he didn t help us win the al east forget about the pennent and the world series his run support was high runs but so was stottlemyer s runs and he won only games i do remember morris winning an inordinate number of and ballgames but this is to his credit he pitched only as good as he needed to be when he was up in a ballgame he just put it in cruise control and threw the ball up there and let the batters get themseleves out i hate this expression an inexperienced pitcher would wear himself out trying to make perfect pitches to keep his era down but morris being a veteran pitcher knows that winning is the only thing that really matters in baseball by saving himself he was able to reach back for that little extra i hate this too when the game was on the line yes morris is crapping out big time this year but let s not change history to suit the present btw i think he should be put in the bullpen it would be embarrassing a veteran pitcher which cito would never do but his era is how much more can he be embarrassed from where i sit i ll let others have the excellent players i ll settle for good enough and the ring ditto joe leonard jle world std com eddie
rec.sport.baseball	re jays darrin jackson is a nightmare give jackson a break he lost about pounds with that flu he had when he was traded dj was a popular player in san diego derek bell was not faring well in the clubhouse at toronto so no matter how bad he looks now i still think it was a steal for the jays just from the perspective of team chemistry no statistic can describe it sorry statheads and since there are so many new faces in the clubhouse i think the jays are still trying to find it insert the same comment into the jack morris v clemens ws ring string yet at first i was sad to see derek go still anticipating all of the talent they raved about at the beginning of last season i m glad to see him faring well for the padres though eric
rec.sport.baseball	re braves giants a case study of their weaknesses in article pyramid pyramid com pcollac pyrnova mis pyramid com paul collacchi writes btw what is the story with brian hunter is he in the dog house paul collacchi no brian s hurt his hand i think he started saturday s game but was taken out it s far too early to populate the dog house although bedrock was seen with a milkbone read that to memory and process it russell earnest georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp allegra amd hplabs seismo ut ngp gatech prism re arpa russell earnest housing gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	re moe berg barring cs washington edu david barrington writes npr this morning had an interview with linda mccarthy name possibly garbled by me an official historian for the cia she has won an emmy for research on moe berg for a tv documentary which i know from nothing but which sounds good she said that among other things berg was the principal spy for the oss cia s wwii precursor spying on axis atomic programs because of his physics background and language skills she said that during the war he met with heisenberg in switzerland and had instructions to shoot heisenberg if the germans were close to us in bomb research he concluded they were two years behind and didn t shoot him i have heard elsewhere that heisenberg deliberately misled the nazi bomb program but i don t know how reliable this is unfortunately npr didn t mention any kind of a book she s writing i d certainly buy it dave mb there is a great book out called they also served which is about the ballplayers during wwii there is some info on berg in there it also has info on pete gray one armed outfielder and other players of the era because of the draft many players during the war were those who were exempt from the draft for medical reasons there are some very interesting stories in the book it is very well written and i would suggest reading it to anyone with an interest in baseball rob koffler you live day to day and rkoffler ux cso uiuc edu dream about tomorrow don henley
rec.sport.baseball	seeking all star game info ok ok ok first my apologies for perhaps being untimely with this subject material and perhaps overly optimistic in my request but here goes anyhow i m very interested in finding out how i might be able to get two tickets for the all star game in baltimore this year my very aged folks live about miles away and i know it would be a great thing for them to attend the game i went with them and my grandfather who got me into baseball as a small child to the all star game in dc many years ago although i m now in the sf bay area i d love to be able to treat my folks to this game it s absolutely the last chance they d ever have to attend this g ame locally any info would be greatly appreciated mary cole mcole informix com
rec.sport.baseball	re how to speed up games marginally realistic in article c she lkf ucdavis edu ez chip ucdavis edu gary built like villanueva huckabay writes you want to speed up ballgames mandate a rule permitting only n seconds between pitches the current rule is too lenient and then enforce it fifteen seconds is more than enough time if the pitch isn t released in call it a ball and restart the clock i remember a post from last year indicating that a pitch clock was tried in one of the minor leagues some time back and did not work i don t remember why they said that it did not work anyone remember this jody mcdonnel on wip in phil has been saying that a pitch clock was inevitable how would a pitch clock work on throws to first another pair of suggestions remove the balk rule it is the runners responsibility to stay safe no matter what the pitcher does if a pitcher throws to an occupied base more than x time x to without successfully picking off the runner the runner advances a base as if walked the no balk seems to give the pitcher the advantage the base walk allows the runner to challenge pitcher to throw over to the base baseball games take about in the nl and just a shade under hours in the al that s just too damn long i don t like to play in hour games much less watch a game for that long my butt falls asleep and if i m watching on tv i ll channel surf between pitches catching colorized versions of mr ed leave it to beaver and those wacky nieporents on nick at nite i too find myself surfing when i know that it will be enough time between each pitch to allow the batter to adjust his jewlery gary huckabay you think that s loud enough a hole movie rights well if you re having trouble hearing it sir available thru i d be happy to turn it up for you i didn t ted frank know that many people your age liked king s x david madden
rec.sport.baseball	re cardinals mailing list in article poe husc harvard edu poe husc harvard edu leslie poe writes likewise i would love to know about a cardinals mailing list please e mail me if you have any information thanks a lot les poe poe husc harvard edu this is the fifth request to find out about a cardinals mailing list it looks like one does not exist if anyone has the initiative creating a list might be a worthwhile activity sam passer
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes in c sfve aq murdoch acc virginia edu drw l delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker writes some comments deleted for bandwidth god knows we need it baseball is a team game but it is made of individual talents it is absurd to judge the success or failure of an individual by the success or failure of his teammates whom he did not choose at least in most cases morris won last year because he played on a team with joe carter robby alomar tom henke juan guzman john olerud et al clemens lost because he was surrounded by such lesser performers as herm winninham luis rivera and jeff reardon to define the quality of the team as a sum of its components as i do albeit imperfectly is a lesser error than defining the quality of an individual as the mean quality of the team as my reading of your arguments suggests you do no i am not trying to define the quality of an individual at least not for the purpose of ranking them toronto won with olerud they might have won with fielder they might not have won with thomas detroit might have won with thomas chicago might have won with fielder you can t rank these individuals you can only look at who might contribute more to the team effort which is winning the ws thomas could not have contributed to that goal any more than olerud so i cannot say that olerud is less of a player ok roger here s a question for you say you are running an expansion team you don t have a team at the moment but the draft is coming up who are you going to pick guys who have won the most ws rings or guys who could contribute the most to your team say the reds were dumb enough to not protect larkin and the jays didn t protect alfredo who would you pick i can t believe i m getting involved in this john cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.baseball	re the real way to speed up ballgames in article tom apr amber ssd csd harris com tom ssd csd harris com tom horsley writes the real way to speed up ballgames is for each home park owner to offer the following schedule of bonuses to players on both teams details deleted i suspect you could finance this the same way presidential campaigns are paid for offer each fan a checkoff on his or her ticket that says i want of the price of this ticket to go towards fast game bonuses oh great we fans can subsidize the cost of speeding up the games that we don t want to see sped up terrific oh i forgot checking off that box to finance presidential campaigns doesn t cost us taxpayers anything do you believe in the tooth fairy too the beastmaster sorry i hate to be so sarcastic on such a beautiful day mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	re mlb nba in article kbanaian bernard pitzer claremont edu kbanaian bernard pitzer claremont edu king banaian writes there is absolutely positively quite verifiably no causation that runs from salaries to ticket prices the two are separable decisions the owners do not raise ticket prices to recoup costs they raise ticket prices because demand for seats has risen wish i had bold type for that no for more evidence please come to my intro to econ course somewhere around lecture four sunk costs opportunity costs marginal costs right on ticket prices are set to maximize revenue period for an excellent discussion on how this works see gerald scully s book of a couple of years back titled i think the business of baseball we will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen hewlett packard home nw mckinley corvallis or a sabr member since
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in apr stsci edu sandoval stsci edu writes ok roger here s a question for you say you are running an expansion team you don t have a team at the moment but the draft is coming up who are you going to pick guys who have won the most ws rings or guys who could contribute the most to your team say the reds were dumb enough to not protect larkin and the jays didn t protect alfredo who would you pick for an expansion team i m pretty sure i would go with the rings as long as their salaries and ages weren t too high i would want the fans to be able to identify the players i would like a championship attitude in the clubhouse as for larkin and griffin salaries aside i would have to consider which player is likeliest to contribute to a ws victory past performance age and attitude would all be integral to my decision i certainly wouldn t just haul out my copy of gillete and pick larkin as many others would and unlike many others who post to this group i hardly consider myself quali fied to make those kinds of decisions i can t believe i m getting involved in this i have never been able to believe it about myself to tell you the truth it s like banging your head against a stone wall cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.baseball	re usa today ftp site in article c qgld dut cc swarthmore edu rbrooks cc swarthmore edu robert brooks writes wiawkph dutrun tudelft nl k p hart writes sometime ago someone mentioned an ftp site run by usa today that should give scores for last night s games can some kind soul e mail me that address please thanks if anyone knows of such a site could they please send it to me also thanks dan acsddc umassd edu
rec.sport.baseball	re red sox mailing list query in article sfoixme wb qbulsk andrew cmu edu robert ward rw andrew cmu edu writes a friend in england is looking for a red sox mailing list if you know of such a list could you please send me mail with some info thank you i would be veru interested also if there is one could someone please send me some info dan acsddc umassd edu
rec.sport.baseball	re jays darrin jackson is a nightmare in article c smzy bde ra nrl navy mil klinker itd nrl navy mil eric klinker says dj was a popular player in san diego derek bell was not faring well in the clubhouse at toronto so no matter how bad he looks now i still think it was a steal for the jays just from the perspective of team chemistry no statistic can describe it sorry statheads and since there are so many new faces in the clubhouse i think the jays are still trying to find it insert the same comment into the jack morris v clemens ws ring string i laugh at you now and i will laugh at you again equally publicly when the jays finish third due to the severe depletion of their talent i think bill james put it best about sparky anderson abstract there are a million guys in this country with great attitudes but there are only about five hundred who can play a major league brand of baseball which are you going to take tom hyer
rec.sport.baseball	re braves update in article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes since time immemorial batters have complained about calls so have pitchers and catchers however batters didn t use to go for strolls after bad calls to the degree they do now i really think that this is the key point when i saw the incident on baseball tonight sunday i couldn t believe how far away from the plate gant went then he casually leaned against his bat i don t blame the umpire at all for telling the pitcher to pitch the worst part of the whole incident was the braves coming out onto the field what were they going to do attack the umpire the only people who should ve been out there were cox and maybe the coaches but no players i agree with the person who posted before that cox should be suspended for having no control over his team john
rec.sport.baseball	re braves update in apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes that he d been thrown out and gant had a legitimate beef about the pitch that was called a strike a reasonable umpire would not have tried to force gant back into the box in that situation a reasonable umpire would do as he s been instructed to do this season get the batters back in the box sooner to try to cut down on the ridiculous length of games i for one am glad to see this happen and hope more umpires will do as hirschbeck did in instructing the pitcher to pitch if the batter won t get back in the box while i can see why they want to cut down on the time spent walking around gant wasn t ordered back in the box sooner he was ordered back immediately as soon as he stepped out hirschbeck told him to get back in the box now gant doesn t take a lot of walks between pitches the only reason he did then because he was very bothered by the call i expect his concentration wasn t there yet and in a crucial situation i imagine it s best to be as calm as possible contributing factors would be gant s bad day at the plate bad year at the plate and the braves long scoring drought now it s pretty stupid to go ahead and talk the walk when the umpire is telling you to get in there you know the umpire is going to do something call for a strike throw you out etc gant was wrong but hirschbeck was more wrong in my biased view aside from the major chip he seemed to have on his shoulder what was the problem gant had a reason to want some time disputed strike call gant hadn t been wasting time all game the game had been cruising along and was just over two hours old the score was with outs in the ninth and a runner in scoring position is there any reason hirschbeck couldn t and shouldn t cut gant a little slack for no discernible constructive reason hirschbeck disrupted the game caused a five minute delay and materially hurt the batter in a key situation did he have a date to get to and i still wonder why terry was tossed earlier in the game dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	skydome tix i plan on being in the toronto area sometime this summer late june or early july and would like to attend a blue jay game i would appreciate if anyone could give me information on how to obtain tickets for blue jay games i would prefer to get good seats and i assume this would require going through some ticket broker and paying ticket broker info for the toronto area and or ticket info directly through the blue jays would be appreciated i ll bring oxygen if need be my schedule is flexible so any games are candidates though i d prefer to see texas thanks in advance tony
rec.sport.baseball	fenway hi does anybody know the for ticket info for fenway thanks eugene s rhim dartmouth edu
rec.sport.baseball	re harry caray in article oasys dt navy mil odell oasys dt navy mil bernard o dell writes being an old time cardinal fan now relocated to the nva area i can recall that harry was not at all popular with old man busch who as i understand it fired him and kicked him out of st louis i am not quite sure of the reasons but the old man was certainly not enraptured by ole harry bern o dell i grew up listening to harry carey call the cardinals games and really liked him then but as i recall he was fired because he was too critical read honest when he was announcing he dared to point out the cards miscues and such at least this is what i remember from when i was a kid kay jones
rec.sport.baseball	re harry caray in article oasys dt navy mil odell oasys dt navy mil bernard o farmer by the dell writes being an old time cardinal fan now relocated to the nva area i can recall that harry was not at all popular with old man busch who as i understand it fired him and kicked him out of st louis i am not quite sure of the reasons but the old man was certainly not enraptured by ole harry but maybe his wife was i don t claim to know whether it s true or not but a couple different people totally unrelated have said harry was relieved of his duties because he had more than platonic relations with augie busch s wife judgement is left to the individual cuz i sure don t claim to be an impeachable source in this case dave hung like a jim acker slider kirsch blue jays do it again in kirsch staff tc umn edu new quotes out of context not to beat a dead horse but it s been a couple o weeks this disappoints me punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence
rec.sport.baseball	re defensive runs from da comments in article qvdrninnd f gap caltech edu shippert cco caltech edu tim shippert writes the reason i bothered doing this dr stuff was to see if i could determine the answer to the age old question is jeff blauser more valuable than rafael belliard well it looks like just as doug trumped tim beating him to the net with his defensive analyses so tim has gotten in ahead of me the way i was doing it was a little different being me of course i used equivalent averages to work out how many runs a player was worth and i calculated both rate of performance fielding equivalent average and total performance fielding equivalent runs but i compared not to the average player but the replacement player and here s why because the positional adjustment comes built in to the system in the al of the average ss is runs above replacement rar cf b b lf rf b we may quibble with the exact numbers but the order looks substantially right in the equivalent average i have always set league average to i had decided in hitting that the replacement level batter has an eqa of the name of that replacement level hitter often as not is billy ripken i decided to let the replacement level fielder be the same distance from as but in the opposite direction as i have set it up that makes for an eqa of yes i can add runs are proportional to eqa squared the difference between squared and squared equals the difference to squared and i rounded off for simplicity an all replacement fielding team would have randy milligan at first willie randolph at second leo gomez at third walt weiss at short kevin bass in left hojo in center and eric anthony in right ugh so the total number of rar for a player is the sum of his batting and fielding rar i can rate them by total rar or rar per some number of batting outs like an average player has a total rar of about batting fielding total rar bat field bonds ventura sandberg thomas van slyke anderson grace raines lankford puckett pendleton alomar finley martinez e bagwell mack butler mcgwire sheffield griffey larkin devereaux grissom henderson walker listach justice lofton w clark baerga kruk d white o smith palmeiro gwynn sierra hollins carter j bell gonzalez notable entries in a per batting out rating nl top are bonds lf sandberg b van slyke cf grace b larkin ss justice rf sheffield b one at each position measured mcgriff despite batting rar fifth in league finishes out of the top due to a in fielding last by position galarraga stillwell hansen belliard blauser gad a rd in league may dascenzo anthony in the al much maligned rickey henderson was worth second only to frank thomas ventura edges edgar at third grebeck rates a potent griffey edges puckett as top cf listach nudges out lofton among rookies and alomar clearly outpoints baerga last by position segui sojo palmer lewis polonia cuyler v hayes all for now clay d
rec.sport.baseball	re hbp bb big cat in article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes kubey sgi com ken kubey writes and finally i d like to point out that many high obp guys draw their walks more because pitchers are afraid to throw a strike to them than because they have a great eye this comes up periodically and i just don t get it take for example mark mcgwire he walked times in if that s not a potential great example of what you re talking about then i don t know what is now let s look at what happens when mcgwire doesn t walk of the time he made an out of the time he hit a single of the time he hit a double of the time he hit a homer now you re pitching against mcgwire would you trade walks for homers double singles and outs i would why give him the base when you can get him out times out of i didn t say that pitcher s fear of throwing strikes to guys like mcgwire bonds and frank thomas was rational i just said that it exists then there are guys like alex cole who has a career obp even though he s never had a batting average over he did hit in ab in or hit a single home run yep that s right he s never hit a homer in ab s through the end of who d be afraid to throw a strike to him i don t know alex cole s batting style at all some questions how tall is he does he go into a crouch like rickey hederson pete rose does he foul off a lot of pitches like brett butler does he take or strikes in each at bat it could be the cole has a good batting eye look above i said that many high obp guys draw their walks because pitchers are afraid to throw a strike to them not all high obp guys ken kubey kubey wpd sgi com
rec.sport.baseball	re yankee fears how can anyone pick the worst yankee pitcher in the past years there have been so many does the name steve you mean i should try and throw the ball to the catcher trout jonathan alboum uva
rec.sport.baseball	babe s pitching can anyone out there tell me babe ruth s complete pitching stats i know he was as a pitcher for the yankees but what were his numbers when he was with the red sox thanks in advance kris schafer hey sixers lottery pick lottery pick lottery pick go phillies give me beer or give me death lets pillage al bundy shoe salesman women can t live with them pass the beernuts norm barfly
rec.sport.baseball	re let s play the name game somebody wrote how about changing team names post your choices here i ll start how about the baltimore baseblazers san francisco quakes shawn go rangers baltimore baseblazers where the hell did you come up with that the orioles are not a base stealing team except for anderson besides we would never call them anything but the baltimore orioles why the ballpark has all these orthologically spelling error correct baltimore orioles all over the place i bet you thought the bird is just an oriole it s not the bird was named after lord baltimore when maryland was founded they re called baltimore orioles but the post is just a joke so why do i care what a non o s fan thinks of us but i still wonder where baseblazers came from san diego padres now there s a name that needs to be changed how is padre being used as father ie priest or father ie parents admiral steve c liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu world champions baltimore orioles why not series in the yards stanley cup champions washington capitals the bangles are the greatest female rock group that ever existed this sig has been brought to you by frungy the sport of kings my god man drilling holes through his head is not the answer dr mccoy
rec.sport.baseball	re usa today ftp site if there is a usa today ftp site could someone please post it to the newsgroup so everyone will stop posting the send it to me too articles i m sure many people woulds like to know so why not just post it to the net rather than mailing hundreds of people just a thought thanks ryan robin robinr prism cs orst edu
rec.sport.baseball	re hbp bb big cat in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david m tate writes kubey sgi com ken kubey said and finally i d like to point out that many high obp guys draw their walks more because pitchers are afraid to throw a strike to them than because they have a great eye i m not sure i used to think this was true but more and more i m becoming convinced that it s the other way around among players with the physical ability to hit the ball real hard the patient ones are the ones who get the chance to do it a lot let s break down the four basic categories of hitter according to whether they are power threats and whether they walk a lot power no power patient frank thomas brett butler barry bonds ozzie smith mark mcgwire craig grebeck babe ruth miller huggins ted williams billy hamilton rickey henderson eddie joost joe morgan mike hargrove impatient ernie banks ozzie guillen dave kingman shawon dunston joe carter andres thomas george bell jose lind kirby puckett devon white okay i think we all agree that singles hitters should take a strike or two and try to get on base any way they can so the no power impatient guys have no excuse the no power patient guys are doing the right thing now the impatient power guys how could you leave out the big cat would these guys have a better slugging percentage if they took more pitches perhaps but i doubt it if you tell joe carter to go up there and take a few pitches he will draw more walks but he also won t hit as many frozen ropes into the bleachers because he is more likely to hold back on a pitch that he used to drive the patient power guys joe morgan had a small strike zone and rickey henderson has a strike zone the size of hitler s heart so they get their walks based on the small zone look at the other guys thomas bonds mcgwire ruth and williams wow a lot of pitchers would rather nibble at the corners and maybe walk these guys that to throw a clear strike to them the pitchers would do better in my opinion by just coming after them with a good fastball for a strike on the first pitch but pitchers would rather nibble go or and then get hurt ken kubey kubey wpd sgi com
rec.sport.baseball	re rule book trivia in article io maine maine edu ryan robbins io maine maine edu writes if i were the manager i d argue that the runner was out of the base line since he was to the left of the first base line if the umps don t budge which they won t they nev er admit when they are wrong i d file a protest with the league rule k states it is interference by a batter or runner when in running the last half of the distance from home base to first base he runs outside the three foot line or inside to the left of the foul line and in the umpire s judgment interferes with the field er taking the throw at first base the key word in the rule is and a runner isn t out just for running out of the baseline he s out for interfering with the fielding of the ball or throw or fielding of the throw to first because the catcher opted to throw the ball over the batter runner s head there s no inter ference so what is your definition of interfering with the fielder taking the throw the rule book certainly doesn t have a definiton or clarification so it s possible to interpret the rule as saying that if the catcher has to alter his throw to avoid hitting the batter runner then again we have interference you know it seems that there is no way to apply this rule justly if the catcher or the pitcher say rob dibble for example throws toward first and hits the runner running inside the baseline the fielder takes the chance of being ejected therefore he probably would throw around the runner or your scenario above him you should note that in our american legion league which uses mlb rules we interpret the rule to say in this very circumstance there is interference per rule rstimets
rec.sport.baseball	re game length was re braves update umpires are not required to call time out just because a player asks for time only in extreme cases like dust in the pitcher s or hitter s eyes should an umpire call time the batter has seconds to get situated in the box and receive a pitch i m against putting a giant clock or any size clock for that matter up to count down seconds between pitches and the minute for warm ups but i think umpires should tell hitters to go to hell if they step out to get the sign or whatever and instruct the pitcher to pitch the same goes for pitchers umps should tell them to pitch or feint within seconds or a ball will be called that s the way it should be ryan robbins penobscot hall university of maine io maine maine edu
rec.sport.baseball	re lame dumb and useless question it depends if in the judgment of the umpire the batter made no attempt to avoid getting hit the batter is awarded first for a base on balls if the umpire rules he did try to get out of the way he s awarded first because of a hit batsman ryan robbins penobscot hall university of maine io maine maine edu
rec.sport.baseball	re how to speed up games marginally realistic pitchers are required to pitch or feint or attempt a pick off within seconds after receiving the ball not pitchers are required to pitch their warm up throws within a one minute time frame beginning after each half inning ends not two minutes and the reason why a reliever should be allowed warm ups is simple different mound different catcher ryan robbins penobscot hall university of maine io maine maine edu
rec.sport.baseball	re relative value of players kime mongoose torolab ibm com edward kim writes in article c ro h lww world std com jle world std com joe m leonard writes before folks jump on me let me ask the net would the jays have won the al with a good pitcher from aaa in place of morris given his run support how about an average ml pitcher i can t believe that morris performance in the playoffs and series had a large positive impact on the jays performance i know it s very trendy nowadays to dump on morris but let s give credit where credit is due it is doubtful that the blue jays would have won the al east without morris last year when the team went for the month of august and all the other starters were being shelled and milwaukee was making a charge morris went with a pretty good era i can t remember exactly also let s not underestimate the importance his innings to save the bullpen every fifth day if he didn t help us win the al east forget about the pennent and the world series a guy who threw innings with about run lower era would have saved the bullpen even more say somebody like frank viola innings his run support was high runs but so was stottlemyer s runs and he won only games i do remember morris winning an inordinate number of and ballgames but this is to his credit he pitched only as good as he needed to be when he was up in a ballgame he just put it in cruise control and threw the ball up there and let the batters get themseleves out i hate this expression an inexperienced pitcher would wear himself out trying to make perfect pitches to keep his era down but morris being a veteran pitcher knows that winning is the only thing that really matters in baseball by saving himself he was able to reach back for that little extra i hate this too when the game was on the line nice audition tape send it to baseball tonight attn ray knight espn bristol ct have you by chance taken a look at the boxscores from last year to determine the accuracy of your account i seem to recall morris getting at least or wins last year when the jays came back from behind after they had decided to pull morris at the end of an inning mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com dictionaries are merely checkpoint records of linguistic history truly donovan
rec.sport.baseball	re a rooky question about the era thomas theiner thein damabus informatik rwth aachen de wrote hi there i m german and i have been into this mlb stuff since almost one year now there are many problems occuring for me one of them is the era statistic for pitchers what does it say era indicates the average number of earned runs attributed to a pitcher per nine inning game thus if a pitcher pitched innings and gave up earned run his inning equivelent perfomance would be earned runs thus his era is to compute the era you simply take the number of earned runs divided by the innings pitched and then multiple the result by era er ip an earned run is run that is given up by the pitcher that is not attributed to a fielding error more specifically if an error occurs that represented the third out all runs scored after the error are considered unearned runs earned runs are also runs scored as a result of players who were left on base when the pitcher exited the game here are some examples if there are two outs in an inning and there are men on base if an error occurs that represents the third out all of the runs after this error and not counted as earned runs if a pitcher issues some base on balls walks and leaves the game before the inning is completed he is responsible for the people who were left on base if the those runners who were left on base score and the score was not a result of an error those eraned runs are attributed to the pitcher who left the game i hope this explains things for you joe
rec.sport.baseball	re how to speed up games marginally realistic davidm gvls vfl paramax com david madden writes in article c she lkf ucdavis edu ez chip ucdavis edu gary built like villanueva huckabay writes you want to speed up ballgames mandate a rule permitting only n seconds between pitches the current rule is too lenient and then enforce it fifteen seconds is more please pardon my ignorance if this is well known but what is the current rule than enough time if the pitch isn t released in call it a ball and restart the clock i remember a post from last year indicating that a pitch clock was tried in one of the minor leagues some time back and did not work i don t remember why they said that it did not work anyone remember this jody mcdonnel on wip in phil has been saying that a pitch clock was inevitable how would a pitch clock work on throws to first maybe we could limit the number of throws to first that the pitcher can make and award a balk if he exceeds it i d have another question who would operate the pitch clock one of the umpires add another one to the crew another pair of suggestions remove the balk rule it is the runners responsibility to stay safe no matter what the pitcher does i m not sure i like this idea i think it would severely diminish the number of stolen bases and limit the availability of such neat strategic ploys as the hit and run and the squeeze play one of my personal favorites if a pitcher throws to an occupied base more than x time x to without successfully picking off the runner the runner advances a base as if walked ahhh i suppose i should read the whole article before i hit the f key eh obviously from what i wrote above i like this idea the no balk seems to give the pitcher the advantage the base walk allows the runner to challenge pitcher to throw over to the base it may also increase the number of wild throws to the bag since the pitcher knows he doesn t have very many chances to pick off the runner so he may hurry too much i d rather see runs scored as the result of sound hitting and sound baseball strategy rather than on the sloppiness that could result from this kind of rule so i suppose there are some disadvantages to that idea too baseball games take about in the nl and just a shade under hours in the al that s just too damn long i don t like to play in hour games much less watch a game for that long my butt falls asleep and if i m watching on tv i ll channel surf between pitches catching colorized versions of mr ed leave it to beaver and those wacky nieporents on nick at nite i too find myself surfing when i know that it will be enough time between each pitch to allow the batter to adjust his jewlery i remember in little league if when up to bat we stepped out of the batter s box even for a moment we were automatically out that may be a little harsh for the majors but seriously how about putting a limit on the batters being able to step out take several dozen practice swings pound their shoes scratch their balls etc maybe forcing them to stay in the batter s box wouldn t be such a bad idea that could save a few minutes randy
rec.sport.baseball	re mlb nba mss netcom com mark singer writes in article rvesterm vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes in article mssc qrrz h netcom com mss netcom com mark singer says why would owners decrease ticket prices when they obviously get lots of people to pay the price they re asking i don t think that it is obvious that lots of people are willing to pay the price i m sure someone out there in net land has some facts about trends in attendance regarding percentage of capacity sold but even if the trends are relatively flat you have to consider what is happening on a team by team basis attendance in was down by from an all time record in in people terms attendance was down by from to two franchises the dodgers and mets were down by from to had either of them not been entirely awful mlb would have set another attendance record in mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com fortran the infantile disorder by now nearly years old is hopelessly inadequate for whatever computer application you have in mind today it is now too clumsy too risky and too expensive to use edsger dijkstra selected writings on computing
rec.sport.baseball	re harry caray dave almost cursed the jays kirsch kirsch staff tc umn edu wrote in article oasys dt navy mil odell oasys dt navy mil bernard o farmer by the dell writes i am not quite sure of the reasons but the old man was certainly not enraptured by ole harry but maybe his wife was i don t claim to know whether it s true or not but a couple different people totally unrelated have said harry was relieved of his duties because he had more than platonic relations with augie busch s wife judgement is left to the individual cuz i sure don t claim to be an impeachable source in this case among those who have said it well not quite said it but certainly alluded to it is bing devine redbird gm or some other administrator at the time i heard bing speak about it at last year s sabr national btw have we had a show of hands about who will be attending this year s sabr national in san diego i ll be there neal traven pitt edu you re only young once but you can be traven vms cis pitt edu immature forever larry andersen
rec.sport.baseball	ron gant stalling and hirschbeck dale seer stephenson writes while i can see why they want to cut down on the time spent walking around gant wasn t ordered back in the box sooner he was ordered back immediately as soon as he stepped out hirschbeck told him to get back in the box now gant doesn t take a lot of walks between pitches the only reason he did then because he was very bothered by the call i expect his concentration wasn t there yet and in a crucial situation i imagine it s best to be as calm as possible contributing factors would be gant s bad day at the plate bad year at the plate and the braves long scoring drought and it is not hirschbeck s job to help gant with any of these difficulties if gant can t gather his concentration for whatever reason that just makes him all the more meat in the batter s box the umpire s job is to maintain flow of play gant is not entitled to time to regather his faculties nor is anyone else now it s pretty stupid to go ahead and talk the walk when the umpire is telling you to get in there you know the umpire is going to do something call for a strike throw you out etc gant was wrong absolutely i think it d be more accurate to say gant was foolish but hirschbeck was more wrong in my biased view aside from the major chip he seemed to have on his shoulder what was the problem gant had a reason to want some time disputed strike call if a disputed strike call is ample reason for a timeout games would last about nine fifteen weeks if jack morris or dave whiner stieb were pitching a disputed strike call is not sufficient for a time out suck it up get back in the box and never badmouth the blue they re not going to change their mind and you re just going to come across as a pinhead which won t help you with the borderline calls ftr i never speak to umpires when i don t know them personally nor do i glance at them or react to calls as a result i think i get more than my fair share of borderline calls at the plate because i have a rep of having a good eye actually there are a lot of negative connotations that go with that rep including copious questions about my masculinity party affiliation and sexual preference gant hadn t been wasting time all game the game had been cruising along and was just over two hours old irrelevant he was wasting time then the score was with outs in the ninth and a runner in scoring position is there any reason hirschbeck couldn t and shouldn t cut gant a little slack because it s not his job because setting the precedent of cutting slack there can easily extend to those hour games kind of like the phantom dp for no discernible constructive reason hirschbeck disrupted the game caused a five minute delay and materially hurt the batter in a key situation did he have a date to get to gant hurt himself and the braves disrupted the game your biases are exposed and i m sitting here defending umpires and the sf giants which is like phyllis schlafly defending gary segura jack kevorkian and the swedish abortion team and i still wonder why terry was tossed earlier in the game i believe terry said the magic word there are some truly quick ways to get tossed from a ballgame for a primer email me good ways to get tossed from a game ask ken kaiser if he got his money back from nutri system kiss rich garcia on the lips and say hi honey i m home goose eric gregg ask bruce froemming if his parents had any children that lived get naked source the greg spira book of diamond ettiquette as told to peter gammons collier press gary huckabay outside that was right down the bleedin pipe balder than any kenny i realize i don t have great control but dave on the net c mon gary that was a styrofoam cup the really plate s a foot to your right throw the ball
rec.sport.baseball	re hbp bb big cat in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david m tate writes of course this is not the same as claiming as some do that galarraga s inability to defer gratification isn t hurting his team because he isn t paid to walk or is an rbi guy or whatever alright that s enough i ve suffered with all kinds of insults as typical for the net but give me a break galarraga is currently batting over and you guys are complaining that he isn t drawing enough walks what would he have to do to please you guys bat you can hardly claim that he is hurting his team if it happens that the pitchers start throwing him fewer good pitches and he starts making lots of outs as someone speculated might happen then i would agree with you that he isn t taking enough pitches my comment that he isn t paid to walk doesn t mean that he should have a license to swing at bad pitches and make outs it s more along the lines of he s batting and leading the league in rbi s so what bloody difference does it make if he isn t drawing a lot of walks sheesh greg
rec.sport.baseball	re best first basemen in article apr tesla njit edu drm tesla njit edu wrote don mattingly is the best first baseman in the history of baseball always has been always will be actually keith hernandez is the best sean behind the bag vin scully
rec.sport.baseball	re geronimo pena in article apr eagle wesleyan edu dhart eagle wesleyan edu writes hey i ve noticed that luis alicea is starting at nd for the cardinals instead of geronimo pena is pena hurt or was he just benched for poor performance anyone know after a quick start pena has been stuck in a rut torre gave alicea the start to try to get pena out of whatever funk he is in it has worked in the past bob h bob netherton missouri pacific sun microsystems o mp dallas tx o o o o o o
rec.sport.baseball	re bob knepper was not right in article apr news stolaf edu eblom mari acc admin stolaf edu the woodman writes in article apr news yale edu austin jacobs writes don t you guys think so i mean c mon what the heck are women doing even thinking of getting into baseball oh i don t know maybe because they love the game they cause so many problems just look at lisa olson remember that feisty reporter that entered the new england patriots locker room she started crying like a little girl so people deal with unfair treatment differently i suppose you would have more respect if she punched out some people like a stereotypical macho man would have done i just don t think women belong in a man s sport before you smart guys flame me for this i know the given example was about football who cares it still applies to other male sports male sports are only that way because they won t let women be involved there is no divine providence segregating sports it is the decision of the men who run it men almost as liberal thinking as you how can we have women umpires ummm by insisting they pass an accredited umpire course then hiring them jeez look at pam postema just because she s a woman everybody on the face of the earth thinks it s great that she s getting an opportunity to ump if you even watched the games and had an iq greater than that of roast beef you d see that she is not nearly as good as most aaa umpires besides she is probably more worried about cracking a fingernail with a foul tip off of wade boggs bat or jose oquendo s bat listen mr status quo i know pam postema i ve seen her work she is without question the toughest person i ve ever met she doesn t give a damn about her fingernails but does care about working the game she s not there to find a man to take care of her but to do the best job any umpire can do your bullshit comments are obviously tailored to show off the red on you neck not your grasp on society there s nothing wrong with a red neck why some of us hicks even listen to cultured music and such can you say the same aside from that you shouldn t try to shit on this guy by insulting where you think he comes from where i m from we milk cows drive trucks and yes even like baseball so screw anyone that doesn t like it oh yeah learn the difference between to and too city boy see below thom unnumbered wanna be member of the bob knepper fan club bkfc either way there are too many complications nobody said life was easy pam is aware of that to bad that she has to be judged by people like you who can t look past anatomy qaustin jacobs bob knepper fan club member were you ever an organized baseball owner or in the political system before women could vote you seem to feel threatened ttfn woody no smileys here either none
rec.sport.baseball	re lame dumb and useless question in article rvesterm vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes ok there are three balls on this batter the pitcher proceeds to bean the batter is that a walk or a hit by pitch bob vesterman it s gotta be an hbp doug roberts watching chris nabholz pitch reminds me of a quote by bart simpson come on snipers where are you go expos
rec.sport.baseball	re bonilla fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes all of these divisions based on race religion etc make me sick as they should isn t it nice that mlb is finally waking up to their existence isn t it a shame that hiring practices on and off the field have been discriminatory for so long quick name a light hitting black outfielder or b who lasted years in the bigs i bet you can name two dozen white ones otis nixon darnell coles henry cotto manny mota billy hatcher herm winningham lonnie smith not light hitting but a horror in the field gary redus dion james daryl boston vince coleman yeah he s finally started to have a decent obp cecil espy willie wilson gary pettis milt thompson gary varsho ok i admit to taking a quick browse through the major league handbook but only after the first or oh and there s the all time light hitting black outfielder lou brock look it up and curt flood cesar geronimo cesar cedeno note these guys may not have reached years yet but they ve got to be close likewise for my list oh and a prediction milt cuyler mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com you know the great thing about tv if something important happens anywhere at all in the world no matter what time of the day or night you can always change the channel jim ignatowski
rec.sport.baseball	re ray lankford question in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu msilverm nyx cs du edu mike silverman writes does anybody know what is going on with lankford i know he was out for a few games with a slight injury but since he has beenback and before the injury for that matter he has been really struggling at the plate and on the basepaths his performance at the plate may well be from the shoulder injury received when he ran into the wall making a catch in the cincy series it may also be him pressing a little as for the baserunning it does not appear to be just lankford dent made the bad call sending lankford in the sunday night game against cincy but everyone had a bad time against the dodger s catcher whereis the ray lankford we saw last year good question at least it doesn t appear that we are seeing the same zeile h bob netherton missouri pacific sun microsystems o mp dallas tx o o o o o o
rec.sport.baseball	re best first basemen sean garrison writes in article apr tesla njit edu drm tesla njit edu wrote don mattingly is the best first baseman in the history of baseball always has been always will be actually keith hernandez is the best sean behind the bag vin scully i ll go with mark grace and in years frank thomas chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.sport.baseball	re braves update and then cosper seq uncwil edu kit cosper quoth a comment made by one of the braves announcers attributed to an anonymous player after friday night s game i m sorry we didn t tie it up i wanted to see some more umpiring just about sums it up sure like ron gant wasn t completely out of line if i were hirschbeck i would have ejected in order ron gant every single last brave who came onto the field and possibly bobby cox depending on the language he used since cox was the only brave rung up i suspect i would have thrown him out too you simply cannot show up an umpire like ron gant did it is disrespectful of not only the home plate umpire but of the dignity of the game jason lee jplee oboe calpoly edu jlee cash busfac calpoly edu giants e i pi the most beautiful equation in mathematics magic for all sad words of tongue and pen the saddest are these number it might have been john greenleaf whittier
rec.sport.baseball	re is western insane in article qucdn queensu ca qucdn queensu ca writes why are we continuously putting down other universities queen s is not as great as is makes itself out to be this place has only got a good rep because it s been here so long if someone would take the time to look around and see how dissatisfied people are with the disorganization and the constant misuse of the bell curve they could see that queen s needs some major improvements i would personally start with hiring professors who can actually teach not people who are here with the attitude that this place would be okay if it wasn t for all the students running around when did george bell ex blue jay learn to throw a curve
rec.sport.baseball	re braves update in c sysg kad odin corp sgi com luigi sgi com randy palermo writes in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes when gant turned away hirschbeck immediately motioned for gant to step into the box imo at this point in time hirschbeck was determined to show gant exactly who was in charge of this game gant wasn t dawdling he hadn t had a chance to dawdle and hirschbeck was simply exercising a power play gant resisted as many of us might to what we thought was an unreasonable request and hirschbeck called for the pitch at that point cox came out on the field the pitch was thrown and many other braves left the dugout cox was tossed protecting his player i was pleasantly surprised that gant kept his cool enough to stay in the game did you see the same game i saw gant most reasonable argued a horrible call which hirschbeck correctly did nothing about gant then proceeded to walk halfway to rd base lean on his bat and glare at hirschbeck while i don t necessasarily subscribe to the theory of showing people up this was an obvious attempt by gant to do so to hirschbeck he left hirschbeck no choice but to take control of the situation the bottom line is gant started a dangerous power struggle with hirschbeck when his team needed him most and he lost the events i saw were called strike by hirschbeck shocked looking gant asks for appeal to first no appeal to first gant steps out of batters box hirschbeck immediately orders gant back in bad move gant ignores hirschbeck and walks off bad move hirschbeck yells at gant gant is silent hirschbeck calls for the pitch pitch is called a strike cox argues couldn t see when he came on the field cox is ejected players everywhere play finally resumes gant shouldn t have ignored hirschbeck not returning made the strike call fairly likely although i suspect an argument might have gotten gant tossed altogether but if hirschbeck had let gant step out the whole incident probably would have been avoided dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	re game length was re braves update in article mzimmersc sllk ld netcom com mzimmers netcom com michael zimmers writes in article apr vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes i agree with nick what s the big deal about long games if you want to watch baseball there s that much more baseball to watch and yes baseball includes the space between plays as well as the plays themselves first a longer game in no way suggests more baseball to watch unless you include watching the grass grow as baseball the lengthier games are so because of batters stepping out of the box pitchers taking longer between pitches and excessive trips to the mound by managers and pitching coaches until six or seven years ago i was an enthusiastic fan of nfl football last year i hardly watched a game what turned me off were the incessant interruptions to the continuity of the game a team scores minutes of commercials kickoff minutes of commercials three downs and a punt minutes of commercials aaaaarrrrgh earlier in this thread i commented on larussa and the a s whom i believe institutionalize slow play i don t mind the cat and mouse game with rickey on first in fact i rather enjoy it similarly i would enjoy the battle with listach or lofton or polonia on first what i object to is when such games are played with karkovice on first or when the game is a blowout i don t mind when the pitcher steps off the mound to gather his thoughts in a crucial situation or when a hitter steps out of the box to regain his concentration what i object to is when hitters and pitchers take such breaks at every opportunity when a game is exciting these little delays serve as tension builders and for me enhance the value of the experience of the game when the delays happen with regularity they become nuisances just like the commercial breaks in football i understand the nfl imposed a number of rule changes to speed up the games basically putting an onus on the officiating staff to move the markers and the ball to the spots faster that did not address the problem of the continuity of the game it may have appeased the sponsors and the networks but i would be amazed if it did anything to enhance the experience of the fans similary while some hour baseball games bore me to tears those are the ones where there is no continuity and the players are taking exasperatingly long periods to get ready for each pitch i doubt if anyone watching the braves giants game cared about gant stepping out i doubt if anyone watching that game would have found that pause to be anything but an opportunity to have their complete attention claimed by the drama that was present i would be totally opposed to any effort that would eliminate that aspect of baseball on the other hand i wish baseball had a commissioner that was powerful enough to sit down with alderson larussa duncan and explain that they are actually hurting the product of baseball by dragging their games out the way that they do i sure wouldn t mind a little arm twisting there the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	re autographs was will clark is a jerk in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article apr island com fester island com mike fester writes out of curiousity why haven t you pointed this same thing out to mr neiporent who seems to be making the unsubstantiated accusation against will clark as for taking the word of those two leonard has repeatedly said he had no problems with will and mitchell refused to comment mike you again prove your utter inability to read plain english it is ironic that in any post that criticizes langauge ability the critic invariably makes a mistake himself english is generally written english find somebody who is literate and have them explain my full post to you i am not saying will clark is a racist i am not saying will clark is not a racist i am saying that i do not know and you do not know i am saying that i do not care and consider it the giants concern oddly i do not see that i have contested any of that perhaps you with assuredly greater english ability can explain in tiny words that i might grasp their meaning precisely where i infer that you have said any of those things david nieporent understood my post and replied in private e mail you should perhaps take reading lessons from him no mr fisher you should place the burden of proof on the one who makes the allegation in the first place you do not perhaps you might explain why that is as for the email route mr fisher you might have tried that yourself mike
rec.sport.baseball	hits stolen centerfield disclaimer this is for fun in my computerized baseball game i keep track of a category called stolen hits defined as a play made that an average fielder would not make with average effort using the defensive averages posted by sherri nichols thanks sherri i ve figured out some defensive stats for the centerfielders hits stolen have been redefined as plays juan gonzalez would not have made ok i realize that s unfair juan s probably the victim of pitching staff fluke shots and a monster park factor but let s put it this way if we replaced every centerfielder in the league with someone with kevin s out making ability how many extra hits would go by to try and correlate it to reality a little more i ve calculated net hits stolen based on the number of outs made compared to what a league average fielder would make by the same method i ve calculated net extra bases doubles and triples let by finally i throw all this into a a formula i call defensive contribution or dcon basically it represents the defensive contribution of a player i add this number to ops to get dops defense onbase plus slug which should represent the player s total contribution to the team so don t take it too seriously the formula for dcon appears at the end of this article the short version definition of terms hs hits stolen extra outs compared to kurt stillwell nhs net hits stolen extra outs compared to average fielder ndp net double plays extra double plays turned compared to avg fielder neb net extra bases extra bases prevented compared to avg fielder dcon defensive contribution bases and hits prevented as a rate dops dcon ops quick dirty measure of player s total contribution national league name hs nhs neb dcon dops nixon o grissom m jackson d lewis d dykstra l dascenzo d finley s lankford r martinez d vanslyke a sanders r butler b johnson h ordered by dops vanslyke lankford grissom dykstra nixon finley sanders jackson nl average butler martinez dascenzo lewis johnson american league name hs nhs neb dcon dops lofton k wilson w white d felix j devereaux m mcrae h yount r kelly r johnson l griffey k puckett k cuyler m gonzalez j order by dops lofton griffey devereaux white puckett wilson gonzalez yount felix al average kelly johnson mcrae cuyler more discussion dcon formula nhs ndp pa nhs ndp neb ab why such a bizzare formula basically it s designed to be added into the ops with the idea that a run prevented is as important as a run scored the extra outs are factored into obp while the extra bases removed are factored into slg that s why i used pa and ab as the divisors for more discussion see the post on hits stolen first base dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	hits stolen left field disclaimer this is for fun in my computerized baseball game i keep track of a category called stolen hits defined as a play made that an average fielder would not make with average effort using the defensive averages posted by sherri nichols thanks sherri i ve figured out some defensive stats for the leftfielders hits stolen have been redefined as plays kevin bass would not have made ok i realize that s unfair kevin s probably the victim of pitching staff fluke shots and a monster park factor but let s put it this way if we replaced every leftfielder in the league with someone with kevin s out making ability how many extra hits would go by to try and correlate it to reality a little more i ve calculated net hits stolen based on the number of outs made compared to what a league average fielder would make by the same method i ve calculated net extra bases doubles and triples let by finally i throw all this into a a formula i call defensive contribution or dcon basically it represents the defensive contribution of a player i add this number to ops to get dops defense onbase plus slug which should represent the player s total contribution to the team so don t take it too seriously the formula for dcon appears at the end of this article the short version definition of terms hs hits stolen extra outs compared to kurt stillwell nhs net hits stolen extra outs compared to average fielder ndp net double plays extra double plays turned compared to avg fielder neb net extra bases extra bases prevented compared to avg fielder dcon defensive contribution bases and hits prevented as a rate dops dcon ops quick dirty measure of player s total contribution national league name hs nhs neb dcon dops gonzalez l gilkey b clark g alou m bonds b may d gant r bass k ordered by dops bonds gilkey gonzalez alou clark nl average gant may bass american league name hs nhs neb dcon dops raines t anderson b henderson r vaughn g gladden d hall m mack s polonia l mcreynolds k maldanado c reimer k order by dops henderson anderson raines mack vaughn hall al average maldanado mcreynolds gladden reimer polonia more discussion dcon formula nhs ndp pa nhs ndp neb ab why such a bizzare formula basically it s designed to be added into the ops with the idea that a run prevented is as important as a run scored the extra outs are factored into obp while the extra bases removed are factored into slg that s why i used pa and ab as the divisors for more discussion see the post on hits stolen first base dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes valentine no i m not going to be cordial roger maynard is a complete and total dickhead send me e mail if you insist on details in fact he s a complete and total dickhead on at least newsgroups this one and rec sport hockey since hockey season is almost over he s back to being a dickhead in r s bb john franjione department of chemical engineering university of colorado boulder franjion spot colorado edu
rec.sport.baseball	re yankee thoughts in apr clam com sam steamer clam com sam mandelbaum writes wade boggs i live in boston and like wade a lot but his career is winding down and i would rather see the yanks start to develop a long term solution i e hensley muelins russ davis velarde besides wade just doesn t have any range what a shame about charlie hayes huh actually according to the da information posted by sherri boggs is superior defensively to have here s their defensive averages for the last five years compared to average at b al boggs hayes if hayes is a defensive standout at third he s done a good job in disguising it to put it another way compared to an average third baseman last year boggs converted more grounders into outs turned more double plays and prevented doubles hayes let more grounders go by for hits turned more double plays and prevented doubles dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	re relative value of players kime mongoose torolab ibm com edward kim writes it is doubtful that the blue jays would have won the al east without morris last year when the team went for the month of august and all the other starters were being shelled and milwaukee was making a charge morris went with a pretty good era i can t remember exactly also let s not underestimate the importance his innings to save the bullpen every fifth day if he didn t help us win the al east forget about the pennent and the world series his run support was high runs but so was stottlemyer s runs and he won only games i do remember morris winning an inordinate number of and ballgames but this is to his credit he pitched only as good as he needed to be when he was up in a ballgame he just put it in cruise control and threw the ball up there and let the batters get themseleves out i hate this expression an inexperienced pitcher would wear himself out trying to make perfect pitches to keep his era down but morris being a veteran pitcher knows that winning is the only thing that really matters in baseball by saving himself he was able to reach back for that little extra i hate this too when the game was on the line i don t buy this at all i think things are colored to a very large degree of preconceived notions of who the players involved are try this exercise xxx is pitching today his team scores in the first inning and in the fourth xxx gives up in the st through th in the fifth he gives up runs in the th he gives up more the score is now with xxx s team still on top i contend that if xxx were jack morris the assessment would be he is a gutty veteran who pitches only as well as he has to to win if xxx were mike trmbley the assessment would be he is an inexperienced rookie who doesn t know how to pitch needs more seasoning send him to aaa or to the spice rack john franjione department of chemical engineering university of colorado boulder franjion spot colorado edu
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in article apr sni ca dave snitor sni ca dave till writes i don t think it was that obvious at the time that viola was better morris and viola had comparable k ip ratios in viola was coming off an injury whereas morris was healthy at the time i didn t really want the sox to sign either i was more than a little worried about viola s elbow but you surely remember my shout of relief when after a week of rumors that morris was coming to the red sox they ended up with viola instead now i m even happier viola seems to have rebounded nicely also morris was willing to sign for only two years the jays don t like to sign pitchers to long term contracts which i think is a sensible policy how long did viola sign for three years i generally agree with their policy of avoiding long term contracts for pitchers but i think they enforce it rather too strictly these days the premier pitchers all sign three or four year deals which leaves the jays with morris and stewart if the jays want to compete for top free agent pitchers they will have to accept greater risks any idea what the option year deal is for morris are there any automatic activation clauses what is the buyout amount f cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	re harry caray in article blue cis pitt edu traven pitt edu neal traven writes dave almost cursed the jays kirsch kirsch staff tc umn edu wrote in article oasys dt navy mil odell oasys dt navy mil bernard o farmer newsgroups rec sport baseball by the dell writes i am not quite sure of the reasons but the old man was certainly not enraptured by ole harry but maybe his wife was i don t claim to know whether it s true or not but a couple different people totally unrelated have said harry was relieved of his duties because he had more than platonic relations with augie busch s wife judgement is left to the individual cuz i sure don t claim to be an impeachable source in this case among those who have said it well not quite said it but certainly alluded to it is bing devine redbird gm or some other administrator at the time i heard bing speak about it at last year s sabr national btw have we had a show of hands about who will be attending this year s sabr national in san diego i ll be there neal traven pitt edu you re only young once but you can be traven vms cis pitt edu immature forever larry andersen harry talks about this incident in his autobiography holy cow unfortunately i can not clarify on this since i read the book a couple of years ago and i do not have my book with me anyway it is a pretty interesting book if you are a harry or cubs fan rob
rec.sport.baseball	bitmaps of team logos i heard they were posted somewhere but i can not find them please e mail location thanks jody jody hagins hagins avlin us dg com data general corporation linthicum md rock river tree mastodon
rec.sport.baseball	two sport star trivia here s a few two sport star trivia questions i ll admit they re not too difficult but a bit challenging nevertheless mail me your answers please or post them which pitcher played for the harlem globetrotters which major leaguer briefly tried professional golf in which does dieon sanders have more of professionally career touchdowns or triples has there been any player of both pro hockey and baseball if so name him and the years he played each if you have any other two sport star tidbits feel free to include them mike
rec.sport.baseball	re how to speed up games marginally realistic in article apr vfl paramax com davidm gvls vfl paramax com david madden writes another pair of suggestions remove the balk rule it is the runners responsibility to stay safe no matter what the pitcher does if a pitcher throws to an occupied base more than x time x to without successfully picking off the runner the runner advances a base as if walked this last suggestion will probably increase the number of stolen bases considerably suppose the pitcher uses up n of his n pick off attempts the runner can probably stretch his lead off the base given that there will be extra pressure on the pitcher to get it right this time would this suggestion apply to pick off attempts per pitch per batter or per base runner on the same base dr edward j baranoski mit lincoln laboratory it s got to be the going rm j d po box not the getting there that s good lexington ma harry chapin from greyhound
rec.sport.baseball	re hbp bb big cat in article apr ncar ucar edu woods ncar ucar edu greg woods writes alright that s enough i ve suffered with all kinds of insults as typical for the net but give me a break galarraga is currently batting over and you guys are complaining that he isn t drawing enough walks what would he have to do to please you guys bat you can hardly claim that he is hurting his team fine are you willing to bet that he will bat the rest of the way the point is that he has hurt the rockies so far it s that he will hurt them eventually just as much as he hurt the expos and the cardinals the past couple seasons if it happens that the pitchers start throwing him fewer good pitches and he starts making lots of outs as someone speculated might happen then i would agree with you that he isn t taking enough pitches my comment it has happened for the past seasons where have you been that he isn t paid to walk doesn t mean that he should have a license to swing at bad pitches and make outs it s more along the lines of he s batting and leading the league in rbi s so what bloody difference does it make if he isn t drawing a lot of walks sheesh we ll see come september i have an outstanding bet with someone that galarraga s obp will be less than on june go california angels nelson lu claudius leland stanford edu
rec.sport.baseball	re neon deon sanders braves giants in article apr bnlux bnl gov kyee bnlux bnl gov kenton yee writes phisto gatech edu tmiller cimmeria gatech edu thomas miller writes does anyone else think that this weekend s four game series was a really strange one yup i was wondering the whole time why the braves most talented outfielder neon deon was not starting here s whoa aren t you forgetting a couple of guys named gant and justice a guy who can hit hrs lead off and steal he can lead off he ll probably steal he might hit he ll never hit homers i think you went for on this one bases and they start guys like nixon and bream ahead of him i can t really see that advantage of nixon over deon except that nixon is a better defensive outfielder you said it all right there does anyone else out there not like deon i think he s all hype his season last year was good but i m not convinced that he can do it again it reminds me sorry of the year when tim wallach hit or so homers and had rbi it never even came close to happening again of course maybe i just prefer guys who go about their business and don t play it up for the attention just my ho doug roberts larry walker is god delino deshields thinks he is john bratt if you re out there send me some email my system can t find your site
rec.sport.baseball	re torre the worst manager gt e prism gatech edu michael andre mule writes in article hydra gatech edu gt a prism gatech edu brian r landmann writes e later in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts lankford a hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses luis alicea a hitter with no power as a pinch hitter what the helll is he thinking if memory serves me well alicea hit it and damn near tied the game torre obviously knows his players better than you do not to mention that lankford had been hurt two nights before running into the outfield wall this being the reason he was available to pinch anything his ribs were the problem so he could run but not hit torre is no white rat but give him credit for what he is a pretty darn good manager with the exception of the felix fiasco but i m not sure who s brainchild that was bil cardinals mailing list anyone anyone please
rec.sport.baseball	re usa mcweekly stats rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes some discussion about whether elias is money grubbing deleted funny it seems to me that the stats major league and minor league handbooks which are nothing but collections of statistics are authored by bill james and stats inc and howe for the minor league handbook and i am not sure how the bill james player ratings book qualifies as a book with statistics while the elias analyst is a statistics book the analyst contains more stats sure but it also contains more dialogue finally the point was not about the word statistics it was about money grubbing i don t see how anyone who has looked at the bill james player ratings book cannot consider him money grubbing bob vesterman some thoughts and facts bill james is a partial owner of stats inc however he has almost nothing to do with the day to day operations of the company although he does have significant input into the design of the books that bear his name the handbook but not the scoreboard to the best of my knowledge the only things that bill actually writes for stats are the predictions section of the handbook and the bill james fantasy baseball rulebook the debate over elias goes way back bill james early stuff was hampered by the fact that elias would not give access to their stats at any price project scoresheet and later stats were founded to fill this void you can call stats and ask them for a report on just about anything in their database and they will provide it for a price of course or you could just log into their online system and look at the data yourself having attempted to pry numbers from elias in the past football not baseball they just don t do that in stats eyes the high ground comes from making the information available at all that being said i m pretty dissapointed by bill s book this year too i am given to understant that it was mostly a response to the publishers desire to have the book come out sooner than april hope this makes things just a little bit clearer bias alert i am a former part time employee of stats noel rappin noel chaos cs brandeis edu
rec.sport.baseball	re box score abbrev woes scott asd com scott barman writes in article apr scott skidmore edu jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff writes can anybody figure out why some box score abbreviations make absolutely no sense at least in the local gannett rag that finds its way to my door i must have stared at cleman in the mets box for a good seconds this morning wondering who the hell it was wouldn t it make more sense to use colemn i ve seen it as colmn also blame the associated press after the official scorer balances the official score card they copy it and give it to several diffent people one of those is a person from ap whose job it is to type it up using a template on a laptop and transmit it to the ap offices in new york rockefeller center via the telephone the box scores are not checked and just rebroadcasted over ap s news delivery services if there are corrections those are issued later it is the person sitting in front of a laptop at shea or whereever whose fault that is note the ap puts out boxscores in three different formats with the one you see in most newspapers being the first one not totally true for the past year or two the ap has been getting box scores from stats inc the ap representative in the press box is actually a stats reporter dollars a game but free parking and anybody can do it the box is downloaded to stats in chicago some quick error checking is done and then stats sends it to the ap i m not sure where the appreveiations come in hear i don t think it is at stats s it may just be a space correction by the ap sports editor that day while i m mentioning stats reporters they are always looking for new people especially if you live in cleveland or pittsburgh you re road to getting into the press box may be real short for more info call stats and ask about the reporter network it s a fun way to get paid for watching baseball games end of public service announcement last week they were in denver maybe the ap person in denver did this remember they just started with mlb out there check tomorrow s paper and see if the person who is doing it from shea does the same thing noel rappin noel chaos cs brandeis edu
rec.sport.baseball	re jays darrin jackson is a nightmare in article c svp fja ra nrl navy mil klinker itd nrl navy mil eric klinker writes in article ior slacvm slac stanford edu thomas hyer ior slacvm slac stanford edu writes in article c smzy bde ra nrl navy mil klinker itd nrl navy mil eric klinker says dj was a popular player in san diego derek bell was not faring well in the clubhouse at toronto so no matter how bad he looks now i still think it was a steal for the jays just from the perspective of team chemistry i laugh at you now and i will laugh at you again equally publicly when the jays finish third due to the severe depletion of their talent the jays will finish third because of the depletion of their pitching staff not because derek bell was traded for darrin jakson i couldn t agree more the jays have a lot of power in their line up so far pitching has been the biggest problem maybe we can get acker back but anyway the point of my post if you missed it was that derek bell was traded because he was basically in the doghouse with cito and the rest of the team one incident that sticks out in my mind was when derek bell ran back out on to the feild after the jays had won the division and all the players were back in the clubhouse bell ran around the field with his arms in the air waving a big towel over his head he looked like a big jerk especially when you consider he did not contribute much to the team over the whole season the next day winfield and carter somehow got the keys to bell s jeep and brought it out on to the feild before the game started the stadium announcer said that there was going to be a draw later in the game for bell s jeep bell really freaked out i don t think bell was to popular after that i think that jackson might be trying a little too hard right now he s known for being a great outfielder and he s not the only blue jay who has been booting balls and playing generally awful andrew andrew wyllie wyllie physics utoronto ca mrcs university of toronto
rec.sport.baseball	re you could look it up in article apr alchemy chem utoronto ca mark b writes yes i could look it up but i prefer to post this question to the net i read somewhere in a long forgotten article that the handsignals used by major league umps were originally used to help a deaf ball player by the name of dummy urban myth true i gots ta know dummy hoy a late th century baseball player was deaf in order for him to be able to find out whether the pitch was a ball or strike the umpires developed hand signals this also helped to relieve the stress on umpires vocal cords so they didn t have to shout strike or ball times a game heard about this one from the only worthwhile baseball book john thorn has ever authored a century of baseball lore mark b mbrownel alchemy chem utoronto ca jason a miller some doctor guy frank tanana win
rec.sport.baseball	re fenway hi does anybody know the for ticket info for fenway less than people or more steve
rec.sport.baseball	re ugliest stance i don t know i think phil plantier has the ugliest stance he looks like he s sitting on the toilet brian tbo rosen
rec.sport.baseball	re best homeruns mike schmidt s th not only a milestone but also a th inning game winner john
rec.sport.baseball	re phils nl east not so weak in article kingoz camelot kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth says or you may be posting this way too early and be eating your words by mid season c mon the phillies haven t proved anything yet atlanta was similar to the phils years ago they sucked they started having the phillies finished third years ago the braves really are their record is can you imagine the phils record if they were batting hahahaha and atlanta s hitting will improve dramatically the phillies opponents haven t hit much better eat our words or not forgive us the true fans in philly have been through a lot john
rec.sport.baseball	re hbp bb big cat in article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes it would help if his obp were higher than his batting average yes the april usa today lists le grand chapeau as having a batting average and a obp okay i ll bite how can obp be lower than batting average sac flies or something ken kubey kubey wpd sgi com
rec.sport.baseball	re ray lankford question in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu msilverm nyx cs du edu mike silverman says does anybody know what is going on with lankford i know he was out for a few games with a slight injury but since he has beenback and before the injury for that matter he has been really struggling at the plate and on the basepaths whereis the ray lankford we saw last year be patient he has a sore shoulder from crashing into the wall the cards will give him all the time he needs to come around he is their full time centerfielder he will not however steal as often this year as he is hitting clean up mark kornbluh
rec.sport.baseball	why is barry bonds not batting th as the heading indicates it is impossible for me to fathom why barry is not batting th for the giants behind will clark barry is such an awesome and consistent hitter definitely the best in the national league imho to have williams a streaky hitter and not really a clutch hitter batting th ahead of bonds is simply an injustice to the giants and fans of the giants
rec.sport.baseball	re and america s team is but why in article kingoz camelot kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes well officially it s the braves at least up until they started winning it was are they still officially if so why and how did they receive this label unoffically but without a doubt america s team is the cubs why well my guess is because america loves underdogs every year no matter the cubs talent or the predictions they never as close to never as possible win anything over the years as the losing has mounted america has fallen in love with these perennial losers the cubs have more fans in chicago then some teams do worldwide the cubs have more fans worldwide than most of the teams in their division combined an aura of excitement surrounds the cubs at the beginning of the season like no one else including the ws champs it must be that eternal hope this is the year they ve got the talent they re off to a good start they ve got the pitching or hitting or whatever their strong point is at the time it s that inevitability that the cubs will eventually win the ws again when only god knows since it s been so long it could come at any time or it could be another years but until they do finally win and start winning consistently the cubs will remain america s lovable underdogs the cubs are america s team orin bradley u i m really a jester in disguise you are absolutely correct braves fans are nothing but a bunch of bandwagoners correct me if i am wrong but or years ago you couldnt give away a ticket to see the braves play i would bet my next paycheck that of the so called braves fans living outside of georgia at the present time can not name more than players from their season on the other hand ask any cubs fan living anywhere in the united states to name players from any given year and of them probably could granted the fact that a team wins brings people to the ball park but that does not mean they diserve the title america s team the only reason they are considered america s team is because of ted turner and his little tv station which broadcasts across the nation i ll consider toronto america s team before the braves go reds chris babbitt cgbabbitt leo bsuvc bsu edu all i want in life is a woman to love and a woman to care for my kids hopefully the two will never meet
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris aardvark cygnus la locus com warren usui writes so alfredo griffin is better than barry larkin if rings is what you re judging by then i don t see your point since barry has one yes but alfredo has at least two dodgers and blue jays not only that he has won world series rings for more different teams than babe ruth and lou gehrig combined how do we know that the yankee dynasty was not due to lazarri being at third warren i agree with your premise but the babe won on two teams that s right he was part of the red sox dynasty of the s and everyone knows that the yankee dynsaty wouldn t have happened without thier famous bullpen catcher whose name escapes me at the moment cuz
rec.sport.baseball	belcher terrific tomlin not reds win redreport tim belcher pitched a dandy three hit shut out tonight as cincinnati won their second straight pittsburgh lefty randy tomlin was hit early and often by the heavily right unbalanced reds line up which managed some recently rare power with their bats belcher was solid throughout and in fact seemed to get stronger as the game progressed early on he had several three ball counts but even those were few and far between later on as he allowed only one base on balls while striking out nine in a post game interview he said his change up was working for him i should say so all nine of his strikeouts were apparently on breaking balls tomlin on the other hand was in trouble early giving up a second pitch double to lead off batter bip roberts bobby kelly followed with a single and barry larkin scored roberts with a sharp single to right the big guys mitchell sabo milligan were unable to get anything after that in fact they all struck out but kelly managed a score anyway due to a double steal and a tomlin wild pitch in fact it appeared that tomlin was going to recover nicely from his shaky start he retired of the next batters to get to the fourth behind only randy milligan though had different ideas as his line shot was poorly played by orlando merced and turned into a triple milligan would later score on reggie sanders sacrifice fly giving cinci the lead after the fifth inning spelled loss for tomlin when roberts led off with his second double of the game and one batter later larkin smacked a double down the left field line chasing tomlin barry later would score the final run on tom prince s two base passed ball the pirates managed their only threat of the day in the bottom half of the fifth when merced and kevin young hit back to back singles the second being of the bunt variety but carlos garcia struck out prince fit a foul fly and pinch hitter lonnie smith k d to end any pittsburgh hope pittsburgh pitchers backed tomlin up well though relievers blas minor moeller sp and nagel gave up only two hits in their four plus innings work barry larkin left the game in the seventh when the grounder he mis played bruised his right thumb he was taken to the hospital for precautionary x rays let s hope he s ok cincinnati is now still the worst record in the majors but with the two wins they may be looking at moving out of the cellar pittsburgh is now reds fans if you would like to receive this report on a semi daily basis as often as i write it send me your e mail address and i ll put you on the list if someone has a reds mailing list please forward it to me and i ll put everyone on the list cincinnati reds ab r h k bb lo roberts b kelly cf larkin ss branson ss mitchell lf hernandez lf sabo b milligan b sanders rf oliver c belcher p totals b milligan off tomlin leading off fourth scored b roberts off tomlin leading off first scored roberts off tomlin leading off fifth scored larkin off tomlin in fifth one out runner on second rbi scored sf sanders rbi larkin sanders sb kelly larkin gdp sabo pittsburgh pirates ab r h k bb lo martin lf bell ss van slyke cf king b merced rf young b garcia b prince c tomlin p minor p smith ph moeller p waynor ph nagel p gdp merced cincinnati pittsburgh pitching ip r er h k bb cincinnati belcher w cg so line of the day e larkin pittsburgh tomlin l minor moeller nagel wp tomlin pb prince umps rippley hallion quick crawford att t coming up the reds play two more in pitts then go to chicago for a weekend series the weather doesn t look good though don t be surprised if one or more games get rained out tomorrow jose rijo vs steve cook then smiley vs wakefield on thursday rstimets
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish broadcasters was jewish baseball players in apr galileo cc rochester edu kahn troi cc rochester edu writes let s not forget al michaels of do you believe in miracles fame jim of course you can t forget mel allen michael
rec.sport.baseball	re best homeruns how about brooks robinson s last homerun ever came on at memorial stadium with one out and two on in the bottom of the th inning larry harlow was due up but brooks pinch hit a pitch from dave laroche into the left field bleachers for a win brian klaff
rec.sport.baseball	re game length was re braves update in article apr vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes i agree with nick what s the big deal about long games if you want to watch baseball there s that much more baseball to watch and yes baseball includes the space between plays as well as the plays themselves i don t really mind the length of games either if they want to speed the games up in sensible ways that s fine with me too however what i object to is the assertion by baseball people whitey herzog buck rodgers are who i ve heard say this that games are too long because hitters are taking too many pitches and that the strike zone needs to be expanded john franjione department of chemical engineering university of colorado boulder franjion spot colorado edu
rec.sport.baseball	re braves update in article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson says the events i saw were called strike by hirschbeck shocked looking gant asks for appeal to first no appeal to first gant steps out of batters box hirschbeck immediately orders gant back in bad move even i noticed that gant s demeanor was not one of a batter attempting to regain his concentration gant was stalking off i wonder if gant said something to the ump gant ignores hirschbeck and walks off bad move actually there was a small hand wave by gant as if to say don t bother me gant may have said something here too hirschbeck yells at gant gant is silent hirschbeck calls for the pitch pitch is called a strike cox argues couldn t see when he came on the field cox was already halfway to the ump when the strike was called cox is ejected players everywhere play finally resumes gant shouldn t have ignored hirschbeck not returning made the strike call fairly likely although i suspect an argument might have gotten gant tossed altogether but if hirschbeck had let gant step out the whole incident probably would have been avoided my impression was that gant was not stepping out he was making a protest about the lack of an appeal to first as has been pointed out earlier there is no appeal to first on a strike i can understand gant feeling a little pressure in a two out risp game ninth inning he let it get to him the ump also overreacted gant was stalking off but i doubt he would have been gone long hirschbeck should have let him have a moment to compose himself before telling him to come bat imho umpires should be more flexible than what hirschbeck showed gant was disturbed to the point it was pretty likely he would not get a hit a very bad finish to a pretty good game dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball wayne barber data support specialist university of maine system internet barber maine maine edu
rec.sport.baseball	re why is barry bonds not batting th st ge elroy uh edu edward hui writes in article apr leland stanford edu punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi writes as the heading indicates it is impossible for me to fathom why barry is not batting th for the giants behind will clark barry is such an awesome and consistent hitter definitely the best in the national league imho to have williams a streaky hitter and not really a clutch hitter batting th ahead of bonds is simply an injustice to the giants and fans of the giants simple reasons having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches to hit this is important since he struggles so much with breaking balls opposing pitchers don t want to walk williams to get to bonds i don t understand this at all matt williams has demonstrated throughout his career that he will not wait for good pitches to hit he won t take walks he d rather swing if i m the opposing pitcher why would i groove a fastball to williams and have him hit it well when i know that williams will swing and miss or at least not hit very well at a low and away curve john franjione department of chemical engineering university of colorado boulder franjion spot colorado edu
rec.sport.baseball	re best first basemen in article apr tesla njit edu drm tesla njit edu says don mattingly is the best first baseman in the history of baseball always has been always will be always has been even before he was even conceived of that s a neat trick always will be we leave a lot of room for error don t we hopefully i missed an earlier post that this was with regard to otherwise well i leave that to the individual to fill in but i will say what about gehrig shortened and not capitalized for the ease of the reader mike
rec.sport.baseball	candlestick hey folks saw the giants play ball at the stick saturday april it was the game where pendelton broke up the scoreless tie in the ninth with a two out two run homer to right to win it it wasn t the game where the fans threw the give away fotoballs onto the field in response to the homer too bad huh well the stick is still cold the saturday game ended at pm and it was cold then i can t imagine night games in april at the stick the wind kicked up a little too and i got this idea at most games there s a pile of hot dog wrappers and cups and trash on the field a lot of the time i propose a kid s clean up corps composed mainly of year old kids who would love nothing better than to run out on the field in the fifth inning when the guy in the toro smooths the infield and grab the trash it might not be glamorous but at that age i probably would have given anything to be on the field with the ballplayers everybody wins here whaddaya think sean
rec.sport.baseball	re why is barry bonds not batting th consistent hitter definitely the best in the national league imho to have williams a streaky hitter and not really a clutch hitter batting th ahead of bonds is simply an injustice to the giants and fans of the giants having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches to hit this is important since he struggles so much with breaking balls opposing pitchers don t want to walk williams to get to bonds you re definitely correct in that williams absolutely has to be sandwiched in between clark and bonds he must and i mean must get fastballs to hit otherwise he becomes little more than sixto lezcano in disguise what i would suggest is perhaps batting bonds williams and clark the reason being that i feel bonds potential basestealing abilities are wasted when he s stuck behind two slow runners i think the chance of getting extra stolen bases with bonds in the spot would more than offset any drop in in run production by having clark in the spot matt
rec.sport.baseball	re you could look it up in article apr alchemy chem utoronto ca mark b writes yes i could look it up but i prefer to post this question to the net i read somewhere in a long forgotten article that the handsignals used by major league umps were originally used to help a deaf ball player by the name of dummy urban myth true i gots ta know true william dummy hoy was baseball s first deaf player he played in the bigs from through for several teams including the white sox and reds brian curran mead data central brian meaddata com i ve never had a coach in my life when i find one who can beat me then i ll listen lee trevino professional golfer
rec.sport.baseball	re relative value of players in kime apr mongoose torolab ibm com kime mongoose torolab ibm com edward kim writes in article c ro h lww world std com jle world std com joe m leonard writes before folks jump on me let me ask the net would the jays have won the al with a good pitcher from aaa in place of morris given his run support how about an average ml pitcher i can t believe that morris performance in the playoffs and series had a large positive impact on the jays performance i know it s very trendy nowadays to dump on morris but let s give credit where credit is due it is doubtful that the blue jays would have won the al east without morris well when you say without morris you have to mention an assumed replacement if the alternative to morris was letting cito gaston soft toss the ball underhand to the opposition every days then of course the blue jays wouldn t have won without morris if the alternative was replacement level then i think it would ve been very close and yes morris might ve made the difference if the alternative was frank viola the blue jays probably would have won more easily with viola last year when the team went for the month of august and all the other starters were being shelled and milwaukee was making a charge morris went with a pretty good era i can t remember exactly yes you can make the argument that the his presence prevented the team from collapsing in august also let s not underestimate the importance his innings to save the bullpen every fifth day if he didn t help us win the al east forget about the pennent and the world series those innings were probably helpful his run support was high runs but so was stottlemyer s runs and he won only games i do remember morris winning an inordinate number of and ballgames but this is to his credit he pitched only as good as he needed to be when he was up in a ballgame he just put it in cruise control and threw the ball up there and let the batters get themseleves out i hate this expression an inexperienced pitcher would wear himself out trying to make perfect pitches to keep his era down but morris being a veteran pitcher knows that winning is the only thing that really matters in baseball by saving himself he was able to reach back for that little extra i hate this too when the game was on the line well i think is complete bs what happened most of the time is that morris fell behind and the team came back and rescued him mostly this is because he s a lousy st inning pitcher and much better the rest of the way that the team can climb out of holes consistently and win them is not to morris credit it s to the team s credit furthermore while morris did exceed the w l percentage that would be projected from his runs allowed and run support he hasn t done this in previous years in fact his w l record in is a lot worse than what it projects to be with run support and runs allowed do you think he just came up with this ability in look at the postseason games he pitched decently in typical morris games morris gets behind team rescues him he s not responsible for that rescue and in both those games the team just didn t rescue him enough jack morris pitched as well as he did during much of the season in those games the offense just didn t earn him a victory btw i think he should be put in the bullpen it would be embarrassing a veteran pitcher which cito would never do but his era is how much more can he be embarrassed morris is one of those guys who will reture when he can t start anymore he s too bad a first inning pitcher to serve in the bullpen greg
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris did anyone happen to see peter gammons on espn last night he addressed this exact issue and dismissed it rather quickly according to gammons advanced scouts are reporting that morris fastball and slider still have the same zip and that his problems this year are due to his sudden inability to keep the ball hidden during his release guzman and stottlemyre have gone through similar stretches that have been cleared up succinctly by a little work with the pitching coach gammons looks to see morris back in top form within the month i on the other hand still have my doubts morris era last year was rather high for a pitcher who won games his showing in the series was not surprising although i m not convinced that he s washed up i have my doubts as to whether or not he can ever regain the form he had for the twins in brian klaff
rec.sport.baseball	re game length was re braves update mzimmers netcom com michael zimmers writes first a longer game in no way suggests more baseball to watch unless you include watching the grass grow as baseball i definitely do that s why i don t like going to see games played on artificial turf the lengthier games are so because of batters stepping out of the box pitchers taking longer between pitches and excessive trips to the mound by managers and pitching coaches and while it s true that the gaps between plays can be interesting this is only true when they don t become extra long well your idea of interesting differs from mine i think batting practice is interesting for example and make a special effort to get to the game very early in order to see it i think the delaying tactics of batters pitchers catchers and managers are interesting because they re attempts to gain advantage through control of the flow and timing of the game of course the umpires can and should intervene when these tactics get out of hand as ryan robbins has pointed out there are rules that cover this one of the more fascinating things about baseball i think is its open endedness with regard to time you never know if the game is going to zip right by and be over in less than two hours or if it s going to go on until four in the morning likewise some games are action packed and some games are slow and lazy that s fine by me those folks who want constant action should watch the games on tv so they can channel surf and cater to their short attention spans heather hhenderson vax clarku edu
rec.sport.baseball	re bob vesterman s plan to generate fan interest rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes let s face it sex and violence are the only things that sell in america here s how we can implement them in the game bob sex is already all over baseball do you think those uniforms can get any tighter todd hundley s could be i suppose he seems to favor the carlton fisk baggy pants style very unfortunate todd word to the wise if ya got it flaunt it heather hhenderson vax clarku edu
rec.sport.baseball	yanks royals box score i need the box score from the april game i believe the score was to if anyone can provide it for me i would appreciate it joseph a guastella jr u s long distance mkt rep dewitt san pedro suite san antonio tx san antonio tx jguastel lonestar utsa edu ext
rec.sport.baseball	re ray lankford question does anybody know what is going on with lankford i know he was out for a few games with a slight injury but since he has beenback and before the injury for that matter he has been really struggling at the plate and on the basepaths whereis the ray lankford we saw last year i beg to differ he had a couple hit games after he came back he did get caught stealing though he also missed sunday s game did he play tonight if not i m worried he s on my team too patrick
rec.sport.baseball	cub fever kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes cub fever is hitting me again i m beginning to think they have a chance this year what the heck am i thinking sorry just a moment of incompetence i ll be ok really orin bradley u you sure this maybe a chronic syndrome if it persists we may have to banish you to the cub crazy sanatarium in north chicago rob
rec.sport.baseball	pecota braves could someone out there send me pecota s stats for the last few years or something to give me some sort of feel for what kind of player he is my mind has no handle on him at all it bothers me pecota of the braves that is pretty meaningful that i can t even come up with his first name i think ken yousten if at first you don t succeed try again blacksburg va then quit no use being a damn fool about it yousten atlantis csos orst edu w c fields
rec.sport.baseball	re best first basemen in article apr tesla njit edu drm tesla njit edu writes don mattingly is the best first baseman in the history of baseball always has been always will be not what kind of happy grass you are smoking maybe you should share some with me first of all lou gehrig is the greatest first baseman ever jimmie foxx is clearly the next best first baseman ever he could be the greatest first baseman of the yankees in the modern era to put him in this best in the history of baseball is quite humorous very silly and totally off the line tony
rec.sport.baseball	re why is barry bonds not batting th in article r mek hlq menudo uh edu st ge elroy uh edu writes in article apr leland stanford edu punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi writes as the heading indicates it is impossible for me to fathom why barry is not batting th for the giants behind will clark barry is such an awesome and consistent hitter definitely the best in the national league imho to have williams a streaky hitter and not really a clutch hitter batting th ahead of bonds is simply an injustice to the giants and fans of the giants simple reasons batting williams ahead of bonds will create a left clark right williams left bonds situation in the middle of the batting order this makes it tougher for opposing manager to change pitchers having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches to hit this is important since he struggles so much with breaking balls opposing pitchers don t want to walk williams to get to bonds both your reasons are not good ones joe morgan thinks that bonds clark williams should be the hitters while he believes that clark bonds williams is fine he definitely is of the opinion that bonds should hit ahead of williams i am inclined to agree with him your first reason is not valid because bonds can hit both lefties and righties very well he hits lefties or righties better than any other giant williams is still getting breaking balls although not as much as last season but the bottom line is bonds is a far more disciplined and more productive hitter than williams and i prefer to take my chances with bonds driving in the or hitters who are expected to have high obps than with williams williams would get more fastballs with bonds on first and second base open because of the threat of bonds stealing
rec.sport.baseball	re why is barry bonds not batting th in article apr leland stanford edu bohnert leland stanford edu matthew bohnert writes consistent hitter definitely the best in the national league imho to have williams a streaky hitter and not really a clutch hitter batting th ahead of bonds is simply an injustice to the giants and fans of the giants having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches to hit this is important since he struggles so much with breaking balls opposing pitchers don t want to walk williams to get to bonds you re definitely correct in that williams absolutely has to be sandwiched in between clark and bonds he must and i mean must get fastballs to hit otherwise he becomes little more than sixto lezcano in disguise what i would suggest is perhaps batting bonds williams and clark the reason being that i feel bonds potential basestealing abilities are wasted when he s stuck behind two slow runners i think the chance of getting extra stolen bases with bonds in the spot would more than offset any drop in in run production by having clark in the spot matt williams does not like hitting cleanup secondly bonds and clark in that order are a lot more productive with runners in scoring position than matt i am streaky free swinger williams sanjeev
rec.sport.baseball	re ugliest swing ugliest swing i am not sure i think the ugliset stance is jolio franco of the ranger i wonder how that bat comes around in time to hit the ball it looks bad but hey it get the job done tac
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish ballplayers your list of jewish ballplayers includes levi samuel meyerle son of jacob and margaret meyerle although that sounds like a jewish name meyerle s surviving relatives say he wasn t jewish according to nineteenth century stars published by sabr in incidentally long levi he was foot batted in the first season of the national association the first pro league needless to say he hasn t been topped yet of course the na is not considered a major league by officialdom over five seasons meyerle hit in the na he also played for the first three seasons of the nl hitting phil brown aka pb csc albany edu
rec.sport.baseball	re and america s team is but why in apr bsu ucs cgbabbitt leo bsuvc bsu edu writes you are absolutely correct braves fans are nothing but a bunch of bandwagoners correct me if i am wrong but or years ago you couldnt give away a ticket to see the braves play i would bet my next paycheck that of the so called braves fans living outside of georgia at the present time can not name more than players from their season on the other hand ask any cubs fan living anywhere in the united states to name players from any given year and of them probably could you could be right then again you could be wrong this claim is completely unverifiable and untestable i d wager most of the braves fans on the net could name more than players from their season you could give away tickets to braves games however my dad and i were able to get great seats from scalper for face value which isn t exactly the sign of a hot ticket granted the fact that a team wins brings people to the ball park but that does not mean they diserve the title america s team the only reason they are considered america s team is because of ted turner and his little tv station which broadcasts across the nation this is precisely why they were considered america s team even especially when they were bad you could see most of the braves games on cable you could do that for the cubs as well but the braves had better camerawork better announcers what would you rather listen to harry discuss the game or skip and pete discuss motoball and teams that weren t too much worse because of tbs the braves had a lot of fans outside of georgia at home in kentucky even though we were much closer to cincinnati there was as many braves fans as reds fans even in you could actually watch the braves play you had to go to cincinnati to watch the reds i can go anywhere in america and watch the braves i ll consider toronto america s team before the braves why i d guess that braves fans are more widely distributed than toronto fans dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	re neon deon sanders braves giants in r f f zippy telcom arizona edu r joplin biosci arizona edu doug roberts writes does anyone else out there not like deon i think he s all hype his season last year was good but i m not convinced that he can do it again it reminds me sorry of the year when tim wallach hit or so homers and had rbi it never even came close to happening again of course maybe i just prefer guys who go about their business and don t play it up for the attention just my ho tim wallach can be explained with the rabbitball deion can be explained as learning how to play the game i m not betting that deion will be able to play as well as last year but i think the odds of deion playing as well or better than he did last year are better than the odds of otis nixon doing the same thing when you factor in defense otis was more valuable last year but i m not convinced he ll be more valuable this year and especially next year dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	rbi question is there any judgement call on the part of the scorer for sac fly rbi s this is the situation that brought the question up the red sox were up in the bottom of the th by a score of the mariners had the bases loaded with out the batter hits a fly to center which the fielder catches the runner at third tags and scores without a throw now without a judgement call and i don t think there is one this is an rbi for the batter it seems to me that a better name for this would be defensive indifference since it doesn t really matter whether the guy at third scores at that point i know i can think of several if the mariners stole third and second which opening the base would allow and then the batter hit a grounder which the third baseman gets deep in the hole between himself and third he wouldn t have a play at home third or second for the out and maybe he therefore can t make the throw to first to get the last out etc scenarios too but does it really matter if this guy scores this way when you re down by if the tying run is going to score so is the guy on third the point is that the batter imo shouldn t get credit an rbi for utterly failing to do his job which at this point is to get a hit or a walk not trade an out for one run what do you guys think regards burke charles s homan choman wpi wpi edu go red sox go rocket
rec.sport.baseball	re opinions on eli denny show so that s what happened to denny mclain sad for those of you who are interested another baseball pariah pete rose has a weekday radio show on the sports and entertainment national radio network i think it s pm locally pm on the east coast and actually his on air monologues about the baseball business sounds a lot more reasonable and articulate than what i hear from the ray knights of the world greg mockingbird franklin interracial mixing encompasses a lot lot more f ccit arizona edu than mingling between g races robohen stodgy things argument by an inept speaker ignorant sermonizing a drinking bout without hors d oeuvres a dried up sword sheath held together by threads questioning by a boy favorite about one s other affairs inumakura the dog pillow
rec.sport.baseball	re why is barry bonds not batting th in article apr leland stanford edu punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi writes as the heading indicates it is impossible for me to fathom why barry is not batting th for the giants behind will clark barry is such an awesome and consistent hitter definitely the best in the national league imho to have williams a streaky hitter and not really a clutch hitter batting th ahead of bonds is simply an injustice to the giants and fans of the giants simple reasons batting williams ahead of bonds will create a left clark right williams left bonds situation in the middle of the batting order this makes it tougher for opposing manager to change pitchers having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches to hit this is important since he struggles so much with breaking balls opposing pitchers don t want to walk williams to get to bonds edward hui
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris all of roger maynard s drivel deleted cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time can t we just stick this guy in the faq and stop responding to him guys the last several flame wars with him have been pretty much identical could someone just collect all the articles from this one and simply re post the entire block whenever he tries to start one it d be simpler roger apparently is one of those embarassing specimens who enjoys flames why give him what he wants oh roger you re dull very dull you should get a new act tom
rec.sport.baseball	re and america s team is but why in article apr bsu ucs cgbabbitt leo bsuvc bsu edu writes you are absolutely correct braves fans are nothing but a bunch of bandwagoners correct me if i am wrong but or years ago you couldnt give away a ticket to see the braves play i would bet my next paycheck that of the so called braves fans living outside of georgia at the present time can not name more than players from their season john smoltz tom glavine german jiminez dale murphy bruce sutter pete smith rick mahler jim acker jim break on through morrison ron gant andres thomas gerald perry ozzie the aeneid virgil lonnie smith jerry royster how m i doing so far note i am not a braves fun n on the other hand ask any cubs fan living anywhere in the united states to name players from any given year and of them probably could on the other hand ii like the braves much more than the cubs and all i can name is ron santo ernie banks and don kessinger from my favorite cubbie season granted the fact that a team wins brings people to the ball park but that does not mean they diserve the title america s team the only reason they are considered america s team is because of ted turner and his little tv station which broadcasts across the nation right i ve watched enough braves games to know a great deal of their players i like many of their players the only cubs games i get to see while living in new york are those against the mets and they put me to sleep because face it watching guys like rick sutcliffe and luis salazar doesn t put me at the edge of my chair u i ll consider toronto america s team before the braves actually i notice a lot of anti toronto sentiment here in the states partly because of some of that post series arrogance thanks in part to upside down flag dork posts partly because roberto alomar is about as exciting as swiss cheese and partly because living in baltimore during the winters i ve become so fond of o s fans especially those who call in to rex barney s radio show that i have to side against their most hated rivals go reds sorry but mets is spelled with an m and a t jason a miller some doctor guy frank banananna win r
rec.sport.baseball	re mvp revisited total baseball which also tries to evaluate a player s total offensive and defensive contributions gives barry bonds a total player rating of for only one other player since ruth attained that mark cal ripken for his season rounding out the top five offensive players in the nl last season sheffield sandberg van slyke and larkin the top offensive players in the al in were e martinez ventura anderson r henderson and thomas in short total baseball says bonds enjoyed one of the best seasons ever in the game s history better than any year had by mantle mays williams etc if you disagree don t flame me flame the writers of total baseball also martinez and ventura are neck and neck so given the shortcomings of any statistical analysis which one had the better year can be considered a toss up thus total baseball supports your choices of bonds and ventura as the mvps of phil brown aka pb csc albany edu
rec.sport.baseball	phils winning the hard way the phillies have won two games back to back in extra innings last night s game was hard fought the game in chicago should have been a blow out all in all these two games show a different phillies team in past seasons they tended to always be on the short end of run games i don t know how many times i saw them losing by only run if they were able to win most of those they might have been more of a contending team they are so far in extra innings and of course they are
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes to say that one player is better than another is to be able to say ab solutely that player a s team would have played better with player b in their lineup sheer speculation impossible to ascertain there are very few disciplines where certainty is necessary to state something as fact baseball is not one of them therefore i can say that i know clemens was better than morris last year and larkin was better than griffin no i can t ascertain this i can t prove it but i m not required to do so and since you obviously feel that such threads are meaningless why don t you simply stay out of them valentine no i m not going to be cordial roger maynard is a complete and total dickhead send me e mail if you insist on details
rec.sport.baseball	re infield fly rule you can t call time when there s a play in progress ryan robbins penobscot hall university of maine io maine maine edu
rec.sport.baseball	re white and black racism was about the phillies in article p psilink com dennis g parslow p psilink com writes from dan campbell dan c jhunix hcf jhu edu in article apr ulkyvx louisville edu pjtier ulkyvx louisville edu writes in article apr pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite writes here s the hard working black players none here s the lazy white players mcreynolds now that time has passed what would the posts be like if rickey were driving his boat drunk killing himself and one of his teammates what would people say if bonds drunk out of his skull smashed his car into a tree disabling himself say willie mcgee for the season i can tell you they would be considered spoiled lazy say it niggers this awfully presumptious of you to assume you can read our minds and predict the future what makes you so sure i would be thinking these things what makes you think that there s not a lot of people out there don t think crews is a god anyone who is dead because of a mistake deserves sympathy be it crews olin bonds mcgee rickey or you or me why does it bother you so much that two dead white men are getting a little sympathy would it make you feel better if we only mourned dead black baseball players to beat a dead horse i seem to remember a fair amount of sympathy for some black fringe player named roberto clemente and for roy campanella and for thurman munson and for just about anyone else who we may not even have liked as players but mourned for dying too young wiggins alan but that s besides the point i m sure people would feel slightly sympathetic for rickey if he were killed but they would also be criticizing him a lot more for his actions example how about jose canseco he gets a couple of speeding tickets and all of the sudden his attitude is awful what the hell do speeding tickets have to do with clubhouse influence anyway so why do sportswriters talk about it all the time or brian hunter and keith mitchell both of whom had dwi problems towards the end of last year two years ago it was cited as a sign of their immaturity etc meanwhile dykstra almost killed both himself and daulton and i didn t read any sportswriter complaining about that they may have talked about how bad it was for the phillies but i never read anywhere criticism of dykstra s character or daulton s intelligence for that matter based on this incident david m nieporent only one thing wrong with theory niepornt phoenix is stupid is stupidest theory i ever heard princeton edu baltimore orioles who s the dangerous cult the bds or the batf
rec.sport.baseball	re bonilla in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes in article apr princeton edu roger crux princeton edu roger lustig writes in article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes in apr princeton edu roger crux princeton edu roger lustig writes if black players can t survive being mediocre or worse how can mcrae and chamberlain be explained nobody s saying it s a hard and fast rule my point is that white players are likely to stick around longer if they re mediocre i went through tb iii and made a list of year of and b who were negative in both adjusted batting runs and total player rating tpr has some problems but it s generally not too far off for a career imho all players who played most of their career after were considered here are a through i haven t done the rest yet armas bailor balboni bannister beauchamp beniquez bergman berry biittner blair bochte bonnell bosley bradford l brown buckner cabell c castillo cater cimoli cline clines coles d collins davalillo dernier dilone gaston geiger geronimo gosger heep iorg a few black players there a lot of white and hispanic hmmm one question how do you differentiate hispanic and black after all some people fall into both categories rafael ramiriez comes to mind and he d fit into this grouping also oops he s not an of b although he is a light hitting utility player sorry about that but miguel dilone would qualify if i remember correctly when i say black i mean us born black people for the purposes of this discussion hispanic players were in baseball before and one team in the s signed lots of hispanics because they went over better with the local audience than blacks did and why would more hispanics stick around than blacks don t know but remember this is the country that had special racial laws for one group and one group only blacks our national history includes huge long term global tensions regarding the black minority the hispanic minority while often discriminated against has never been the object of national obsession it might also be worth your while to subdivide the data into careers starting at year intervals i would think that your prediction would be most true for careers starting in the s and least true for careers starting in the s of course you d also have to compare total ml racial percentages for the era in question absolutely as i said before i expect that this effect is disappearing but it certainly did exist and all out talk of twg s and all that is not without some small reason i m of the opinion that your point is less valid today than it was years ago but i would be curious to see the data well there s the list go for it i ll cull some more names as i go i expect you re right btw roger
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes in apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes on the contrary it s statistically impaired opinionated little assholes like yourself who while springing up all over the continent like some dirty virus are diligently working at destroying the glory of sport cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time heheheheh sorry roger i wronged you you re not boring all the time this one is a classic cordially as always hehehehehhe are you a jerk do people hate you are you no fun at parties well come to the roger maynard school of cordiality we can teach you to be cordial with the best of them use such time honored cordiality techniques as calling people assholes comparing them to viruses for advanced students comparing them to dirty viruses what is a dirty virus and how can you tell it from a clean one we know and here at the roger maynard school of cordiality we can teach you to know too heheheh thanks roger this made my evening tom
rec.sport.baseball	re why is barry bonds not batting th i like the clark williams bonds order pitchers can only walk clark with outs unlike last year williams is getting better pitches to hit with bonds looming in the on deck circle since matt has a terrible batting eye this helps the giants a lot when bonds gets on base all by himself he can try to steal nd and then be driven in with a single by thompson manwaring or clayton if you bat bonds before the other sluggers then you don t want him to run because a caught stealing could take you out of a big inning also bonds is less in need of protection behind him because he is such a good base stealer a walk is a potential double the only draw back is when clark and williams are clogging up the bases infront of bonds and i think that s a problem the giants will be glad to see especially if robby thompson gets hot ken kubey kubey wpd sgi com
rec.sport.baseball	re usa mcweekly stats rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes in article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione says also i have the impression from reading this group and bill james that elias is a bunch of money grubbing jerks whose mission is to charge as much as they can for baseball statistical info and bill james is not yeah sure do you own the bill james players rating book uh bill james doesn t sell statistics he sells books with statistics but he is not in the business of providing stats like elias stats howe baseball workshop etc are greg
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris cmeyer bloch stanford edu craig meyer writes michael chen mike cunixf cc columbia edu wrote in any case i think viola would have made a better signing why viola is younger and is left handed how many left handed starters does toronto have well i agree that viola is a better signing however why does everyone say that you want lefthanded starters i understand lefthanded spot relievers even though they usually face more righthanded batters than lefthanded batters i just don t understand why people insist on lefthanded starters unless there is a park effect e g yankee stadium the answer is they re stupid seriously i think you re right on the money i ve never understood the preoccupation with making sure a rotation has left handed starters the only time it makes sense to me is when you have an unbalanced schedule and your main rival s is loaded with lefthanded hitters other than that i think you re completely right greg
rec.sport.baseball	re bonilla in article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes all of these divisions based on race religion etc make me sick as they should isn t it nice that mlb is finally waking up to their existence isn t it a shame that hiring practices on and off the field have been discriminatory for so long quick name a light hitting black outfielder or b who lasted years in the bigs i bet you can name two dozen white ones otis nixon darnell coles henry cotto manny mota a dominican b not all that light hitting lifetime or so in when he did most of his playing c professional pinch hitter after that yes that also gives you jerry hairston billy hatcher beginning th year now herm winningham good one lonnie smith not light hitting but a horror in the field not the same thing lots of people are bad ofs gary redus not all that light either ops dion james not year daryl boston year this year vince coleman yeah he s finally started to have a decent obp not year cecil espy not year willie wilson yup gary pettis ok milt thompson year this year gary varsho six year this year ok i admit to taking a quick browse through the major league handbook but only after the first or oh and there s the all time light hitting black outfielder lou brock look it up and curt flood cesar geronimo brock coleman and wilson were hot dog basestealers also lonnie smith that seems to be a special class cfs like pettis and wilson also get more of a break especially if they actually do field well and brock wasn t all that bad a hitter either not until the end there when he spoiled his ifetime ba and again i suspect thatthe problem is lessening over time but if you look at the history of the last three decades there seems to be a clear race based pattern by which utility players and platoon players and lesser talents stayed in the ml far longer if they were white cesar cedeno light hitting hr lifetime ops mainly with houston also latin btw note these guys may not have reached years yet but they ve got to be close likewise for my list oh and a prediction milt cuyler come back in and we ll party h h h h h talk roger
rec.sport.baseball	re bonilla in article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes quick name a light hitting black outfielder or b who lasted years in the bigs i bet you can name two dozen white ones otis nixon stole bases ok he s still light hitting but baseball managers don t think so they think he like omar moreno before him is a perfect leadoff man awesome defense darnell coles he s still around because of his when he hit hr henry cotto hasn t played years in the bigs wasn t a full time major leaguer until manny mota consistent hitter billy hatcher we ll see if he s still around in for his tenth year herm winningham same goes for herm lonnie smith not light hitting but a horror in the field doesn t count then gary redus redus is hardly light hitting plus he stole bases close to ops career against lhp dion james we ll see if he s still around in to qualify daryl boston slugged to for three straight years in one of the worst hitters parks in the nl he s going to be one of colorado s better players this year plus to make ten you have to count all the time he spent in denver and buffalo and hawaii while with the white sox vince coleman yeah he s finally started to have a decent obp coleman assuming he makes it to was never perceived as being weak offensively though of course he was led nl in sb his first six years in the majors cecil espy we ll see if he s still around in willie wilson wilson has always been overrated but hit five times in a six year stretch and led the league in triples five times but we can count him if he s still playing in though it ll be because he s otis nixon deluxe with slightly worse defense gary pettis okay if he s in the league this year he can count though he s also in the majors because of otis nixon syndrome milt thompson he s not spectacular but he s neither light hitting nor a ten year man gary varsho halfway there and unlikely to make it of the way there ok i admit to taking a quick browse through the major league handbook but only after the first or oh and there s the all time light hitting black outfielder lou brock look it up and curt flood cesar geronimo cesar cedeno brock suffered from otis nixon disease but he wasn t perceived as light hitting neither was curt flood cesar cedeno was not light hitting note these guys may not have reached years yet but they ve got to be close likewise for my list oh and a prediction milt cuyler he ll have to steal a lot more bases ted frank thf kimbark uchicago edu i m sorry the card says moops the u of c law school standard disclaimers
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris bwalker bnr ca barry walker writes in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes in apr newshub ariel yorku ca cs ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes hey valentine i don t see boston with any world series rings on their fingers damn morris now has three and probably the hall of fame in his future therefore i would have to say toronto easily made the best signing and don t tell me boston will win this year they won t even be in the top in the division more like th in spite of what all the stat heads say jack morris played a large role in the jays winning the world series last year i don t care if his era was he played a leadership role and did win games his era may have been high but he did pitch many outstanding ball games and he pitched many not so outstanding ballgames too jack essentially pitched a lot of ball last year this certainly isn t irrelevant and iif you replace morris with replacement level quality the blue jays might not win re leadership i don t see it if the leadership effect is there for a starting pitcher you would expect to see its primary effect on the pitching staff you would expect to see the rest of the staff improve instead the rest of the staff declined you can make a reasonable argument for winfield providing leadership the offense picked up considerably from its effectiveness the previous year i m not saying i buy that but at least that argument makes internal sense greg barry walker bnr ottawa canada my opinions
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris my father is a huge tiger fan and i am a loyal blue jay fan who endured the collapse of the heartbreak of i don t have the stat book so let s throw them out first of all morris in his heyday vs clemens present how many cy youngs does morris have how many cy youngs does clemens have ballparks and such fenway average pitchers park detroit hugh hitters paradise morris is a great team pitcher sort of in the doug drabek mold if morris s team needs a well pitched game as in minn in morris snaps the ball and throw for ks otherwise he just tries to get people out as for clemens in the elias stat book of i believe that clemens has the best lifetime record for his team as compared to when he doesn t pitch how bad would the red sox have been last year without him can you say phillies i believe clemens is the better pitcher because of more power and hsi great tenacity morris is among the guttiest pitchers i ve ever seen but clemens is in a class with seaver carlton etc paul sparks
rec.sport.baseball	re royals final run total k mitchell bose kbos carina unm edu wrote the toronto blue jays scored oh fine we ll ignore that one coming from and all that ll teach me not to qualify my statements in the oakland a s scored a thundering runs bleah ok something to shoot for the royals will score runs or less this season although they just decided to get mcrae out of the leadoff spot of course valentine will throw this one back in my face when the royals even manage to outscore another al team sean sean sweda sweda css itd umich edu css itd consultant p gammons idiotic quote of the week gm manager motor city marauders there s no better home run park in internet baseball league baseball than tiger stadium
rec.sport.baseball	baseball in spanish recently i heard the red sox on wrol a spanish speaking radio station i thought it was so unreal the red sox in spanish anyway i want to find out how widespread this is being a ny native i know the scmets are on in spanish but not the yankmes i wuold think that la sd texas and fla are on in spanish are there any spanish speaking networks or is this a local
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes we have no way of knowing because we cannot separate morris contribu tion from the rest of the team s there is only one way of determin ing best in baseball and that is by looking at the scoreboard at the end of the game each game determines which team is the best that day at the end of the season the team that was the best the most often is the best in the division the playoffs determine the best of the best but the point is that the only decision making pro cess used to determine the best is the score of the game and it re lates to the teams not the individual players there is no method inherent in baseball of comparing individual performances and that is how it should be because after all baseball is a team game and you know what there is no such method inherent in real life either so i would assume you would endorse the notion that we cannot state with any level of objectivity that mother theresa has accomplished more good in this world than joseph stalin after all life on earth is a team effort if you want to select a group of statistics and claim that clemens has done better with those statistics as a criteria then fine but you have to be able to prove that those statistics measure the individual s contribution to winning the ws because that is the only measure of best that has any meaning in the context of base ball so until you can prove that clemens contributes to a ws cham pionship more than morris your evaluation of clemens is totally sub jective and is mere opinion i have yet to see that any of you can predict a ws winner with any greater accuracy than jeanne dixon have you tried glasses i find them quite useful after all there must be some reason you choose to ignore the mounds of evidence we present it s too bad you feel it necessary to close your mind and eyes to knowledge you live a poorer life as a result of that choice heck i d wager that you could predict a ws winner with greater accuracy than jeanne dixon and you know why because i have full confidence that despite your protestations to the contrary you are quite capable of using the knowledge we can come up with through statistical methods to boost your knowledge level you don t have to be rude have you tried calling a kettle black for you to say that means that you have either missed the entire point of my argument or you yourself have committed a fallacy ignoratio elenchi i am not saying that morris is better than clemens because he has more rings although i have tongue in cheek claimed that in the past i am saying that it is impossible to isolate an individual s performance from that of his team s for the purpose of comparing that individual s performance with another individual s per formance in other words in your world you cannot objectively state that jack morris was more important to the blue jays than al leiter last year in your world that may indeed be true fortunately in the world the rest of us occupy it s not i hope you never serve on a jury roger i think the rest of the jury would have to kill you there s no way i can objectively judge the defendant to be innocent or guilty you see there are billion other people on this planet we have no way of knowing whether the defendant would have committed the crime if it wasn t for all the other people on the planet we have no way of knowing how the defendant would have acted had he been on a different planet because living on this planet is a team effort and no individual committs a crime totally isolated from his society he is a part of that society that being case anything i have to say on his culpability would be absolute subjectivity so i refuse to vote greg
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes in qvag innsvo lynx unm edu kbos carina unm edu k mitchell bose writes in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes again if you had lee on your team last year you would be wearing a ring this year er no er yes if manny lee was on your team last year your team would have been the toronto blue jays my team is the albuquerque leftturns if manny lee were on my team i would not be wearing a ring nor would he if however i were on manny lee s team again if manny lee was on your team last year your team would not have been the albuquerque leftturns it would have been the toronto blue jays how is that possible he was on the albuquerque leftturns last year how could you possibly know what team he would be on if manny lee was on his team last year after all manny lee wasn t on his team last year so it s complete unfounded speculation to state that if he was on the same team as manny lee last year it would have been the team of the toronto blue jays since he and lee weren t on the same team you cannot possibly objectively state what team they would have been on if they had both been on the same team greg
rec.sport.baseball	re let s play the name game in article apr newshub ariel yorku ca cs ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes how about changing team names post your choices minnesota lumberjacks thought of bunyons as in paul not sore feet or babes as in big blue ox seattle rainiers i think this was considered by the new ownership harkening back to aaa glory days and placating at least one local brewer kent dietz twins in mariners sometime this century
rec.sport.baseball	re wounded redbirds in article apr bme ri ccf org tknuth bio ri ccf org writes in article acad drake edu sbp acad drake edu writes does anyone know the status of jeffries or arocha arocha broke his finger trying to field a ground ball he was put on the dl after the game and may require surgery the injury is to his fielding hand which is good unfortunately he may have some ligament damage and may require surgery which would lay him up for a while i don t know about jefferies apparently just a strain of some sort he hasn t been put on the dl so it s probably just day to day aaron
rec.sport.baseball	re bob dylan baseball abstract i ve never heard of the bob dylan baseball abstract but i am curious could someone clue me in phil brown aka pb csc albany edu
rec.sport.baseball	re why is barry bonds not batting th in article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione writes as to whether it does him any good to have bonds behind him the net stat mavens will probably tell you there s no reason that it should but if he thinks it will it might be a self fulfilling prophecy i don t understand if it is williams lack of ability which you say above and i agree with which causes him to swing at bad pitches how will thinking that bonds hitting behind him will help him to stop chasing bad pitches i didn t mean that it would necessarily help him improve at that specific deficiency i meant that if having bonds bat behind him gives williams possibly unfounded confidence that might translate into more hitting productivity but you re right if williams biggest problem is more physical than mental that s less likely to make a difference michael zimmers voice softhelp suppliers to software developers data
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris since roger is a canadian who probably knows nothing about baseball i am gonna try to explain it to him in terms of hockey according to his logic i can say that since bob errey is better than wayne gretzky hey errey contributed to cups while good old wayne has won nothing i think the kings should trade gretzky for errey what do you think roger ziyun
rec.sport.baseball	re hits stolen centerfield in article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes nhs net hits stolen extra outs compared to average fielder neb net extra bases extra bases prevented compared to avg fielder national league name hs nhs neb dcon dops lankford r martinez d butler b american league name hs nhs neb dcon dops wilson w felix j i suspect that splits such as these are the result of positioning an outfielder who is fast and gets a good jump would be expected to catch a lot of balls preventing both singles and doubles and also cut off more uncatchable balls turinging doubles into singles however a fielder who plays shallow will catch more short flies and fewer long flies this means that he will allow fewer singles but more doubles has anyone seen these players positioning do butler and felix play deep and lankford martinez and wilson shallow or is this a park effect i thought butler liked to play shallow david grabiner grabiner zariski harvard edu we are sorry but the number you have dialed is imaginary please rotate your phone degrees and try again disclaimer i speak for no one and no one speaks for me
rec.sport.baseball	re al stats and standings i forgot to mention that the stats are for games through doug
rec.sport.baseball	re braves update in article apr zeus calpoly edu jplee cymbal calpoly edu jason lee writes you simply cannot show up an umpire like ron gant did it is disrespectful of not only the home plate umpire but of the dignity of the game but of course it is expected that umpires will show up players don t get me wrong i understand the nature of the game but i just believe that a little ego ectomy for the umpires would make the game much better ted social nags and body bags make you dead what a drag drag drag saigon kick body bags the lizard krueger gas uug arizona edu
rec.sport.baseball	re bosox win again against seattle in article jxu black clarku edu jxu black clarku edu dark wing duck writes last night boston red sox win its games of games by beating seattle roger clemson pitch not so dominate he walked at least man in first inns but valetin and greenwell hit homeruns and red sox prevail clemens struggled with his control but was also the beneficiary of some pretty shoddy umpiring but to be fair most of the walks were early in the game and he adjusted he was also helped by dare i say it some pretty good defense by the sox including rivera playing at second not his normal position actually clemens is pretty lucky that he got the win considering the sox almost gave up the lead in the bottom of the th on mo s error catching a throw over i think that game is must win for red sox in seattle considering darwin will faced seattle ace randy johnson tonight must win in april they ve already won more games so far than anyone thought they would at this point of the season i hope people aren t getting too caught up in this streak it s been fun but teams have streaks all the time and it is only when they are at the start of the season that they get so much attention charles
rec.sport.baseball	re wounded redbirds in article acad drake edu sbp acad drake edu writes does anyone know the status of jeffries or arocha arocha broke his finger trying to field a ground ball he was put on the dl after the game and may require surgery i don y know about jefferies
rec.sport.baseball	re the mystery of ron gant in article news duke edu fls keynes econ duke edu forrest smith writes in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu msilverm nyx cs du edu mike silverman writes o any of you experts want to analyze ron gant omeone sure needs to analyze him gant is a head case in his what six or seven years in the majors he s put together a combined total of maybe one good season he lacks self confidence but worse he doesn t really understand baseball curiously he seems to perform best when his job is threatened sit him down for a game and he might get a hit the next night but let him play and what is he thinking about getting hits driving in runs no he s worried if he s going to get that stolen bases or that th career home run he appears to have no learning curve he never figured out how to play third base what a fiasco he still plays the outfield with his legs he s lucky he s so fast because it enables him to outrun his mistakes but as i suggested earlier in the season it looks to me like he s slowing down a little bit or else every groundskeeper is watering the infield dirt a little extra gant has had way too much of a chance already he may get hot again for a couple of months but he ll always revert to his true level gant s ml record age this season year g ab ba obp slg hr sb cs rd base expt year in the majors for parts of seasons total playing time approx seasons just looking at his hitting record he s had seasons of ops greater than which is pretty good for an of his season is pretty decent for a rookie b the move to third base explains a lot of his when he returned as an of he began hitting again and of course last year he slumped but no learning curve he has obviously improved his batting eye over the years as well as his sb cs ratio as to his fielding he was an infielder when he was drafted a bman as he came up through the braves system and then the braves put him through position changes in the space of a year he s an adequate of although not great and at least some of your perception of his fielding is colored by watching him learn to play the of at the ml level i know you re another long term braves fan about playing b imo that s the nd most difficult position to field after catcher at ss or b you need more range and speed but at b you ve got to have quick reflexes and have a gun for an arm there are no second chances at b even when playing sandlot softball granted i d still put my best overall infielder at ss but that s because he gets more chances not because the job is harder it still amazes me that so many teams have tried to convert other position players to b but maybe that s because the supply of natural b is scarce finally gant is a player who puts pressure on himself to perform well and works hard to improve you don t get those amazingly huge arms on that relatively small body without a lot of weight work now whether he s been overdoing it these days may be a valid question as is the question of whether he tries too hard to make something happen during each at bat but frankly if a player is going to not live up to potential i d much rather they fail by trying too hard than by not trying hard enough you might be able to teach relaxation to an adult but at that age i don t believe you can teach hustle all that said i don t think i d sign gant to another long term contract he s now and i think he s free agent eligible in years when he ll be given his career curve and limitations i wouldn t expect him to last much past as a ml ballplayer he might surprise me here but atlanta s got some talent on the farm and i d rather take my chances down the road with nieves et al eric
rec.sport.baseball	re hbp bb big cat woods ncar ucar edu greg woods writes in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david m tate writes of course this is not the same as claiming as some do that galarraga s inability to defer gratification isn t hurting his team because he isn t paid to walk or is an rbi guy or whatever alright that s enough i ve suffered with all kinds of insults as typical for the net but give me a break galarraga is currently batting over and you guys are complaining that he isn t drawing enough walks what would he have to do to please you guys bat you can hardly claim that he is hurting his team it would help if his obp were higher than his batting average yes the april usa today lists le grand chapeau as having a batting average and a obp that s on for hitting with zip nil nada walks the reason a lot of us are down on galarraga is that he s has a long history of showing that this is nowhere near his real level of ability except for drawing walks if he hit for say even ab s i d be convinced that there was a real change in his ability if he did it with an obp avg i d not only be amazed but i d make a bet that that would be a unique feat in the history of the game but what do ab s prove look at some of the other fluke players at this point in the season player avg ab blauser grace milligan conine lansing slaught are any of these guys really that good well in a word no how significant is galarraga s average at the ab level a hit is worth about if he d had one of those hits called an error and one taken away by a good defensive play he d be in the range if he goes for in his next game he s all the way down to in one game come back in june let s talk then if it happens that the pitchers start throwing him fewer good pitches and he starts making lots of outs as someone speculated might happen then i would agree with you that he isn t taking enough pitches my comment that he isn t paid to walk doesn t mean that he should have a license to swing at bad pitches and make outs it s more along the lines of he s batting and leading the league in rbi s so what bloody difference does it make if he isn t drawing a lot of walks sheesh it s history greg andres history is that he doesn t walk much because he swings at bad pitches so his average isn t very good ab s doesn t mean an awful lot compared to a history of a couple of thousand especially when there s ample evidence bb in that his basic hitting approach hasn t changed yeah he might suddenly have turned into a hitter who never walks but don t bet the rent money on it mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com from an historical basis middle east conflicts do not last a long time vp dan quayle on nightline october
rec.sport.baseball	re candlestick original article newsgroups rec sport baseball path butch netcomsv netcom com csus edu wupost uwm edu zaphod mps ohio state ed from scunning louven berkeley edu sean cunningham subject candlestick message id apr pasteur berkeley edu sender nntp pasteur berkeley edu nntp poster nntp posting host louven berkeley edu organization university of california berkeley date wed apr gmt lines hey folks saw the giants play ball at the stick saturday april it was the game where pendelton broke up the scoreless tie in the ninth with a two out two run homer to right to win it it wasn t the game where the fans threw the give away fotoballs onto the field in response to the homer too bad huh well the stick is still cold the saturday game ended at pm and it was cold then i can t imagine night games in april at the stick the wind kicked up a little too and i got this idea at most games there s a pile of hot dog wrappers and cups and trash on the field a lot of the time i propose a kid s clean up corps composed mainly of year old kids who would love nothing better than to run out on the field in the fifth inning when the guy in the toro smooths the infield and grab the trash it might not be glamorous but at that age i probably would have given anything to be on the field with the ballplayers everybody wins here whaddaya think sean i was at opening day the stadium and new owners were great i pick candlesti ck anytime over the giants playing out of state i only wish the buttheads in san jose had enough balls to vote for a stadium here
rec.sport.baseball	re baseball logos available via anonymous ftp in article apr ac dal ca arishem ac dal ca writes well thanks to matthew wall the major league baseball logos which i ve been posting over the past number of weeks now have a home at the internet baseball archive to get them ftp to eucalyptus cc swarthmore edu login anonymously as per usual and cd to the baseball misc graphics directory both the gif files and the uuencoded versions are available darren darren reiniger reiniger ug cs dal ca arishem ac dal ca centre for marine geology dalhousie university halifax n s canada people who wonder where this generation is going should remind themselves where it came from in the first place i have successfully copied all of the uuencoded versions of these logos to my local directory but when i tried the gif files it said permission denied could you explain why and also how to execute the uuencoded files thanks ken ken cruz nfl champs dallas cowboys johns hopkins university mlb champs baltimore orioles baltimore maryland all star game oriole park at camden yards
rec.sport.baseball	you could look it up yes i could look it up but i prefer to post this question to the net i read somewhere in a long forgotten article that the handsignals used by major league umps were originally used to help a deaf ball player by the name of dummy urban myth true i gots ta know mark b mbrownel alchemy chem utoronto ca
rec.sport.baseball	re hbp bb big cat in article c srg cpt odin corp sgi com kubey sgi com ken kubey writes i didn t say that pitcher s fear of throwing strikes to guys like mcgwire bonds and frank thomas was rational i just said that it exists but why mcgwire and not carter i can see some justification for bonds or thomas because they tend to have higher batting averages but the major difference i see between mcgwire and carter is that carter doesn t draw walks why aren t pitchers afraid to throw strikes to carter sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	re harry caray in article blue cis pitt edu traven pitt edu neal traven writes btw have we had a show of hands about who will be attending this year s sabr national in san diego i ll be there as will i and the ultimate lurker sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	stats im trying to find a site that has updated daily stats more the national league i ll take both leagues but i m really interested in the national league how about them philadelphia sillies
rec.sport.baseball	re bases loaded walk gives reds win in in article mssc xb i cg netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes in article apr pts mot com ep dn pts mot com writes in article g netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes during spring training i made a similarly innoncent looking comment about clutch hitting on this bb and the flames were flying no such thing as clutch hitting they the sdcn s all screamed i assumed they also meant there was no such thing as any kind of clutch performance given their comments i m still licking the wounds but i do have a rebuttal planned gotta do my homework as they say some deletions rather they showed quite convincingly that past clutch performance has never been able to predict future clutch performance i m sure you are convinced dave apparently so is tony perez i however am not i believe at the time of the sabo plate appearance that juan samuel was on the bench available for pinch hit duty over the past four seasons non clutch clutch ab h ba ab h ba sabo samuel i do not claim that this is a complete statistical analysis that proves the existence of clutch hitting or compelling testimony that samuel would have gotten a base hit i m sure there is something wrong with the sample size or that the basic assumption that clutch performance is random invalidates any conclusions from this limited application or something or other i don t pretend to understand statistical analysis well we agree on the last part one of the basic things you need to have in a statistic to be able to predict a player s performance on it in the future is for there to be a correlation from year to year a player s batting average is correlated fairly well from year to year a player s ability to walk or infielder s defensive average are correlated better that is to say given their past performance in those statistics we can have a pretty good handle on how they ll do next year put in some simple information about aging and you can do even better one of the basic problems with something like clutch batting average overall batting average is that the correlation from year to year is almost zero adding to the sample size doesn t seem to help much as a counterexample to what you showed consider the following two players from non clutch clutch ab h ba ab h ba maldonado lemon if you had had these two players in by your logic in those clutch situations you d bat maldonado for lemon in a blink of an eye well in maldonado hit in non clutch and in clutch while lemon hit in non clutch and in clutch before you accuse me of completely cooking the data there were players who had clutch at bats every year from according to elias as a simple measure of clutchness let s just look at clutch ba non clutch ba if you use to predict for those players you d find that of the were below league average in that measure both in and in were above league average in both periods and the other were above in one and below in the other if you were just flipping coins you d expect to get above below in both and that switched the difference between the observed results and the coin flip experiment is not statisically significant btw correlating players overall batting average from with gives a correlation coefficient of which is significant at something better than the confidence level correlating their clutch non clutch ba for the same period gives a correlation of significant at no level of any interest everyone would agree i hope that a grand slam in the bottom of the ninth when your team is down by three is a very clutch hit there is just no way to predict who is more likely to get the clutch hit based on past performance hitting in clutch situations if you say so dave no way actually it s technically incorrect to say that we can t predict future clutch performance it s more correct to say that we can t predict future clutch performance with any skill harold harold brooks hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu national severe storms laboratory norman ok i used to work for a brewery too but i didn t drink on the job p bavasi on dal maxvill s view that florida can win the nl east in
rec.sport.baseball	mlb standings and scores for fri apr rd mlb standings and scores for friday april rd including yesterday s games national west won lost pct gb last streak home road san francisco giants won houston astros won atlanta braves lost san diego padres won los angeles dodgers lost colorado rockies lost cincinnati reds lost national east philadelphia phillies lost montreal expos won st louis cardinals won pittsburgh pirates won chicago cubs lost new york mets lost florida marlins won american west won lost pct gb last streak home road california angels won texas rangers lost minnesota twins won chicago white sox won seattle mariners won oakland athletics lost kansas city royals lost american east boston red sox lost detroit tigers won new york yankees won toronto blue jays won milwaukee brewers lost cleveland indians lost baltimore orioles lost yesterday s scores idle teams listed in alphabetical order national league american league san diego padres boston red sox philadelphia phillies seattle mariners los angeles dodgers chicago white sox montreal expos baltimore orioles cincinnati reds milwaukee brewers pittsburgh pirates minnesota twins atlanta braves toronto blue jays florida marlins kansas city royals colorado rockies cleveland indians st louis cardinals california angels san francisco giants new york yankees new york mets oakland athletics chicago cubs idle detroit tigers idle houston astros idle texas rangers idle joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
rec.sport.baseball	re juggling dodgers in mssc qh y l p netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes if this is true note that i don t think it is lasorda should be fired for at least two reasons publicly humiliating his players knuckling under to his players wishes there is a fine line between getting players input and knuckling under to players demands a manager much like a military officer needs to have his her players complete obedience and respect during a game after the game it s no big deal but when there is no time to do more than react players must trust the manager or the team often falls apart see boston red sox ff strawberry s demeanor as represented by the media often sounds like demands i suspect that a comment like i enjoy hitting fourth i m used to it would get pretty brutally misinterpreted by the media if it came from strawberry russ porter quoted strawberry as saying i feel more comfortable hitting cleanup and i think i perform best in that role paraphrased by my memory and bias that seems like a fairly non petulant answer to what was almost certainly a question like how do you feel about being moved to the third spot in the order a more media sensitive player might answer the manager knows what he is doing if he thinks that batting me third will help the team then i am all for it we d ignore that answer as brown stuff so it seems a little bit of an overreaction to brand darryl s response as petulant personally i think his argument is nonsense and that it really doesn t matter much in which order the players in the order are batted except for personal stats if i were darryl i d probably answer that question the number four spot gets a few more rbi opportunities and i get paid for rbis i think it is best for me to bat fourth but i am willing to hit third if tommy thinks it will benefit the team or something like that it would be helpful at salary time my rbis were down because i was hitting third and make him sound like a team player since strawberry will not likely go through arbitration but use the free agent market for his next contract maybe that argument is useless but it would help his image with the media without appearing to be totally content free remember the media is of the belief that one s best rbi man should hit fourth so the argument is sensible regardless of whether or not it is true jeff
rec.sport.baseball	no no box boston at seattle boston ab r h bi seattle ab r h bi riles b felder lf quintana rf cotto dh greenwell lf sasser ph dawson dh griffey jr cf m vaughn b buhner rf calderon cf boone b cooper b t martinez b john valentin ss blowers b pena c valle c vizquel ss totals totals boston seattle x e greenwell dp boston seattle lob boston seattle hr boone off hesketh sb felder blowers ip h r er bb so hr boston hesketh l quantrill fossas gr harris k ryan seattle bosio w hesketh pitched to two batters in the fourth so bos dawson m vaughn john valentin cooper sea buhner griffey jr blowers boone bb bos riles quintana sea felder buhner t martinez umpires hp voltaggio b kaiser b johnson b mckean t a
rec.sport.baseball	chicago visit i am planning a weekend in chicago next month for my first live and in person cubs game i would appreciate any advice from locals or used to be locals on where to stay what to see where to dine etc e mail replies are fine thanks in advance teresa teresa hagerman ohio state university
rec.sport.baseball	re sex uniforms and good taste in article apr news cs brandeis edu st pip cc brandeis edu writes in article r r s ob network ucsd edu king cogsci ucsd edu jonathan king writes which reminds me yet again of a bucs cards game in whitey herzog s last year as cards manager karen and i were watching the game on tv and for some barely explicable reason the camera kept dwelling on the white rhino himself at his uniform filling worst truly horrible do you remember game of the nlcs after the dodgers defeated the mets and ugh a dugh foo boo fat stomach tom lasorda came running out on to the field in celebration yuck he undulated his arms flew up and down keeping time with his rolling set of stomachs which flew all around the cozy confines of chavez ravine he oozed like a white gastropod he ran it was a disgusting sight not only couldn t i watch my mets in the series i had to watch fat stomach lasorda roll around dodger blargh but what made it memorable was what karen eventually said about this which was i would rather sleep with a jar of bill landrum s spit under my pillow than look at whitey herzog in one of those uniforms if you like short fat men who grunt curse and spit a lot whitey s certainly your man former wfan host pete franklin on the white rat but it s true this emphasis on the appearance of ballplayers in tight uniforms only works if the player actually has an extraodinary physique looking at charlie hough s scrawny torso through those tight white shirts just sort of makes me decide hmmm i don t want to eat lunch today or tomorrow or anytime soon when al harazin first became mets gm he was asked if he intended to help redesign the mets uniforms and change their image in particular they asked him about the orange and blue racing stripe that runs down the sides the uniforms he said that he s very much in favor of keeping them because they re sleek and they re sexy sid fernandez in a tight fitting uniform with a sleek racing stripe to denote speed and potencty mmmmmmmm lard kevin mcreynolds diving after a fly ball mmmmmmmm man o war baby pat howell well never mind nothing could be tight on him they don t make uniform sizes that small adam wishes he contribute something more interesting to r s b levin jason a miller some doctor guy frank tanana
rec.sport.baseball	greg maddux run support i know you all were saying ha the braves score a few runs for maddux that ll shut that guy up but no i think we ll just keep track a bit longer last outing runs total to date runs games braves record in maddux s starts see ya next time dennis dennis parslow that better be a korean good troy ny luck symbol remo williams p psilink com
rec.sport.baseball	re yakult swallows japanese pro baseball team tuesday s game of beloved yakult swallows at jingu hanshin tigers beloved yakult x w ito l nakagomi hr yakult arai st central league standing w l t pct gb hiroshima carp chunichi dragons hanshin tigers hated giants beloved swallows yokohama baystars hiroshi yajima e mail yajima nttcom ntt jp ntt network information systems laboratories midori cho chome musashino shi tokyo japan tel fax
rec.sport.baseball	re obp hurt by sac flies was re hbp bb big cat in article apr rigel econ uga edu scottm helena stat uga edu scott mclure writes sorry i gotta disagree here last time i played ball i went up on several occasions intending to hit a fly ball deep enough to score the runner from third or advance a runner to third it s relatively easy actually you swing under the path of the ball you normally would to hit a good line drive with fastballs it s very easy much more difficult with good breaking balls a good hitter with excellent bat control can voluntarily hit fly balls to the outfield at least oh of the time maybe more there s a blurb in the stats scoreboard about this and though i don t have the book with me here my memory is that the best at hitting sac flies were far below this number sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	re football vs baseball was game length in article apr almserv uucp e ucja fnma com chris allen writes in article ast saic com sac asdi saic com steve a conroy x writes major league baseball is trying to expand its appeal to people with shorter attention spans i e the football crowd invariably all the arguments from people who don t like to watch baseball on t v say the same thing the games are too long and too boring baseball is trying to find a way to shorten the games for wider t v appeal if you look at it though baseball games last around the same amount of time as football games the difference is that there is more action in that duration in football games perhaps if there were more action in baseball games you would get more of those fans to tune in anyway coming up with a solution to make baseball more appealing to a bigger crowd is going to be difficult on soapbox yet another reason to get a commisioner now since it s obvious that ruling baseball by comittee works about as fast as a snail race in nebraska off soapbox how can you say there is more action in football then baseball a football game consists of approximately plays and the average duration of a play is around seconds this means that in a game that lasts approximately hours you have about minute s of action in a baseball game you have upwards of two hundred pitches there are very few on field strategy on field stratgy sessions ie huddles and you always have a chance to win until the last out is made ah but the illusion in football is that there is always lots of action and a sense of urgency because of the game clock not all the time but it happens when there s less than minutes to go quite often this sense creates drama even when there may not necessarily be any and that holds a viewer s attention in baseball only players are involved in the action for about here comes a wild guess of the time and they re just playing a sophisticated game of catch hold the ball step out of the box adjust chains touch self in interesting locations there s a lot of dead time with the players warming up between innings or the manager visiting the pitcher at the mound or the manager removing the pitcher and bringing in a relief pitcher who then takes pitches or helen dell playing the organ dodger fans will appreciate that one to the non baseball junkie this is boring at any rate i m not putting baseball down for this i ve been an avid fan since i can remember it s just that watching a baseball game on t v at home can be tedious for the non baseball junkie that s what major league baseball and the networks are trying to address when they talk of shortening the game it s because of t v not because football has more action than baseball steve conroy conroy terminus saic com i m gone man solid gone science applications baloo international corporation
rec.sport.baseball	re why is barry bonds not batting th punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi writes some evidence that is not working take a look at the standings it s real easy to get so focussed on minutinae and forget that the giants happen to be in first place if it s working you don t screw it up by changing things just because you think it ought to be different some folks like to argue about theoretical details i prefer to watch teams win when the giants slip to third then we can talk about how to re arrange the batting order until then i think it s stupid to focus on what s wrong for the simple fact that it s working as it is p s does the mailing list maintainer think that will clark is the best first baseman in the majors and that matt williams is a better power hitter than any other ballplayer in the majors i don t follow al so i won t comment on majors in the nl if i had my choice of any b in the league for my team it d be clark and i d hit him third my fantasy team has both grace and murray on it because i ve never been able to get clark i d take any of the three without hesitation in real life but i think clark is it williams not even close i much prefer his defense but when he isn t headcasing it matt has a good solid swing and some real punch if he drops to then he wanders out of cleanup but according to the latest baseball weekly he s hitting and in the last week hitting that s not exactly chopped liver mostly though the giants are winning and frankly as long as that continues it s rather silly to second guess their strategy but evidently some folks would rather be right than be first chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants a san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.baseball	re obp hurt by sac flies was re hbp bb big cat scottm helena stat uga edu scott mclure writes in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira writes paladin leland stanford edu jason gische writes in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes i think sac flies are the only way obp can be below ba does this seem dumb to anyone else the fact not the comment why should a batter s obp be hurt by a sac fly especially if sac bunts don t have the same effect since they do the same thing but sac flies usually score a run while bunts just advance a base but both of these situations involve the batter giving up an ab for the benefit of the team sacrifice so why should it hurt their stats the sac bunt is a purposeful act ordered by the manager the batter does not go up trying to get a sac fly and the evidence available indicates that there is no such ability players can t will themselves to hit sac flies they fly out to the same place just as often when there s nobody on third greg sorry i gotta disagree here last time i played ball i went up on several occasions intending to hit a fly ball deep enough to score the runner from third or advance a runner to third it s relatively easy actually you swing under the path of the ball you normally would to hit a good line drive with fastballs it s very easy much more difficult with good breaking balls a good hitter with excellent bat control can voluntarily hit fly balls to the outfield at least oh of the time you haven t been facing major league pitching maybe more you have to be good at the plate and most of those guys are just as likely to opt for getting the base hit and helping their average as getting the sacrifice the best example i know of is jerry willard in the series against minnesota all he had to do was put one in the of and the game was over he swung waaaaaay past parallel and accomplished barely getting the run in safely stats did a little study in the scoreboard book entitled can you hit sacrifice flies on purpose a summary of the findings over the year period sac fly type fly balls were produced percent of the time in situations where a sac fly was useful and percent of the time when a sac fly wasn t useful they looked at the leaders in sac flies and found that the leaders in sac flies in other words the guys you would expect to be good at it it hit sac fly type fly balls only more often when they needed to a difference way too small to be the result of a skill essentially the players who hit a lot of sac flies seem to do so because they hit hit sac fly type flies often with and without a runner on third stats concludes so it appears conclusive that hitters cannot hit sacrifice flies on purpose even if they practice in the batting cage greg
rec.sport.baseball	how does a pitcher get a save the subject line says it all what is the rule that qualifies a pitcher as making a save
rec.sport.baseball	looking for strategic boardgame for baseball last year my nine year old son fell in love with baseball and now likes to play and to follow the professionals i would like to buy him a board game so he can catch a glimpse of and practise a little of the managerial stragegy i am not looking for a computer game or any type of game where manual dexterity determines the winner i am after something that he and his friends can spread out over a table on a rainy day and spend some thoughtful time over i would appreciate the names of any recommended games i don t follow this newsgroup so e mail responses would be ideal michael mgoddard ehd hwc ca michael goddard fax b environmental health centre tunney s pasture ottawa canada k a l mgoddard ehd hwc ca michael goddard fax b environmental health centre tunney s pasture ottawa canada k a l
rec.sport.baseball	twins update twins update posted april the twins defeated the milwaukee brewers today to conclude a three game homestand with the brew crew the twins took two of three games in the series with scores as follows tuesday april th mn mil winning pitcher banks wednesday april st mil mn lp hartley thursday april nd mn mil wp deshaies sa aguilera highlight low lights of the series jim deshaies continues to be the surprise of not only the twins but of the american league as well going into today s game deshaies was with a era deshaies allowed earned runs in innings meaning his era will climb slightly deshaies who came to mn via a trade with philadelphia which sent david west there continues to make andy macphail look like a true genius willie banks has put together two solid starts for the twins going innings on monday while coasting on solid twins hitting deshaies and banks now combine for of the twins eight victories while tapani mahomes erickson are wednesday s game marked the first opposing left handed starting pitcher for the twins this year rickey bones the twins teed off against both him and subsequent relief including a grand slam by kent hrbek which pushed the lead to the twins pitching staff could not hold the lead though allowing walks in the th inning of which scored and coming with bases loaded tapani gave up one walk before being relieved guthrie two walks and mike hartley one walk before the inning was over this tied the game at and the brew crew rocked mike hartley for runs in the top of the tenth to win it aguilera continues to be shaky against the brew crew of career blown saves have come against the brew crew and today s game was shaky as well coming into the ninth with a lead aguilera gave up a solo hr to vaughn then hits to darryl hamilton and dickie thon before finally retiring the side once again the tying run made it to second base on aggie weak hearted twins fans are advised not to watch aggie in the ninth general news pedro munoz continues to improve as an outfielder playing in left field on tuesday s game he continues to bat weakly against right handed pitching though which has limited his playing time gene larkin and jt bruett former gopher have been playing right field as both can bat left handed the twins begin a three game series with the detroit tigers tomorrow starting pitching is tentatively scheduled as erickson mahomes banks the detroit tigers have had two run games in the last ten days and should provide quite a challenge to the young mn pitching staff the twins have hr s this year three each from puckett hrbek and winfield the third fourth and fifth batters respectively brian harper pegged of the first baserunners attempting to steal second this year and shows much improvement in this category jim deshaies has three pick offs and one balk this year some say he has the best st base move in baseball this move has enabled him to pitch out of some tight early jams and has certainly contributed to his start watch to see if umpiring crews began calling the balk more tightly in response to opposing team complaints about his leg kicking behind the rubber on the pick off move current mlb al west standings from joesph hernandez jtchern ocb berkeley edu american west won lost pct gb last streak home road california angels won texas rangers lost minnesota twins lost chicago white sox won seattle mariners won oakland athletics lost kansas city royals won
rec.sport.baseball	i want allstar tickets i want all star tickets does anyone know how i can get some are they for public sale or are they sold out or do you just have to work for a company with some anyway any answers would be appreciated please e mail me thanks andrew
rec.sport.baseball	re hits stolen first base in r pinnh a gap caltech edu jeff smoggy gg caltech edu jeff goldsmith writes in steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes finally i throw all this into a a formula i call defensive contribution or dcon you did mean defcon didn t you well no although i admit that s more exciting than a rat killer dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	re why is barry bonds not batting th in article apr hpcvaac cv hp com paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen writes in article apr leland stanford edu punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi writes having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches to hit this is important since he struggles so much with breaking balls opposing pitchers don t want to walk williams to get to bonds i have to wonder if this good hitter behind you argument is really valid has anyone done a study on this paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen hewlett packard you want a study look at matt williams the year after mitchell was gone look no further not a scientific study but it ll show the truth for matt besides bonds wants to bat th tim if you want an actual analysis of batting order look up analysis of baseball batting order by monte carlo simulation by freeze journal of the operations research scoiety of america no
rec.sport.baseball	a warning to homeowners low flying aircraft and astronomers oakland california sunday april th pm pdt jose mesa vs storm davis you have been warned gary huckabay outside that was right down the bleedin pipe balder than any kenny i realize i don t have great control but dave on the net c mon gary that was a styrofoam cup the really plate s a foot to your right throw the ball
rec.sport.baseball	re why is barry bonds not batting th in article r di car apple com chuq apple com chuq von rospach writes some folks like to argue about theoretical details i prefer to watch teams win when the giants slip to third then we can talk about how to re arrange the batting order until then i think it s stupid to focus on what s wrong for the simple fact that it s working as it is this is a fine strategy if you expect to run away with the division but the giants are going to need every break they can get if they want too hold that lead i don t think they can afford to be lackadaisical and say well it has worked pretty well so far and while we might be able to improve the results we don t think it is worth the risk mostly though the giants are winning and frankly as long as that continues it s rather silly to second guess their strategy but evidently some folks would rather be right than be first the two tend to go hand in hand cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	re ny mets trivia question in article apr e big mko dec com francus e big mko dec com yoseff francus writes in article news duke edu simon hercules acpub duke edu writes name three ex met pitchers that have lost to every team in the majors except colorado and florida which two also defeated every team in the majors dan nolan ryan qualifies on both counts i would guess that viola is the other one who has beaten and also lost to every team in the majors viola has only played in the nl with the mets not possible for him to have defeated or lost to every team ditto for tanana who was mentioned in a previous post the rd pitcher to lose to every team is probably tom seaver but it could be koosman i don t remember if seaver managed to get a win against the white sox in his brief sojourn with boston so i d say the other pitcher to defeat every team is either mike torrez he bounced around enough for a long enough period of time or koosman as mentioned i would also guess that if one of these two did not manage to beat every team he did manage to lose to every team tom thomas talavage purdue university electrical engineering grad student grad school the greatest time of one s life where they pay you to do what you have spent the last years becoming good at
rec.sport.baseball	re john wetteland derek lilliquist info please with all the recent problems the indians have been having with their pitching staff i have heard numerous names thrown around about who could solve their problem one name i have not heard is mike soper rp as far as i know soper has had pretty good minor league stats why not give the kid a chance anyone know anything about this guy russell peterson everyone believes in something rbp sw stratus com i believe i ll have another beer
rec.sport.baseball	re twins update in article apr sctc com macomber sctc com chuck macomber writes wednesday s game marked the first opposing left handed starting pitcher for the twins this year rickey bones nice post chuck but you made just one mistake bones is a right handed pitcher however hrbek s grand slam came off graehme lloyd a lefty salty
rec.sport.baseball	southpaw can anyone out there tell me why they call left handed pitchers southpaw also the story on how the term originated thanks go cubs prediction they will finish over this year without winning the east
rec.sport.baseball	baseball in spanish dateline tue apr in antonio pera of icop csa bu edu wrote to all at ap recently i heard the red sox on wrol a ap spanish speaking radio station i thought it was so ap unreal the red sox in spanish anyway i want to find ap out how widespread this is being a ny native i know ap the scmets are on in spanish but not the yankmes i ap wuold think that la sd texas and fla are on in spanish ap are there any spanish speaking networks or is this a ap local for the last couple of years the braves have been fostering a program to reach to the latin american audience this has included licensing spanish fan magazines encouraging spanish co broadcasts and marketing programs directed at the latin american community one of the biggest heros to the latin american audience has been francisco cabrerra a fact of which he was slightly embarrassed one funny story is that during spring training the braves played a game in mexico this game was broadcast back to atlanta in spanish it took the broadcasters a few innings to get a rythm going because they had to keep changing their location seems it took a while to find a place where they could get a clear signal on their cellular phones through which they were calling the game david deitch gis atlanta fidonet uucp uucp wittsend gisatl deitch gateway faq oo internet deitch gisatl fidonet org david deitch galaxy information system administrator gis atlanta u user david deitch fido via fidonet node jm
rec.sport.baseball	re yankee thoughts scott asd com scott barman writes in article apr clam com sam steamer clam com sam mandelbaum writes wade boggs i live in boston and like wade a lot but his career is winding down and i would rather see the yanks start to develop a long term solution i e hensley muelins russ davis velarde besides wade just doesn t have any range what a shame about charlie hayes huh who would you have playing b wade boggs or charlie hayes my choice is boggs no contest it will give them time to develop younger talent in an area the yankee farm system seems to be deficient a hem two words russell davis playing in the cavern at albany aa last year down the alleys and to center davis went with homers there aren t any small parks on the road in the eastern league either he s and his mle was hr i have no fielding statistics but from seeing him a number of times last year i d say that he s not brooks robinson but neither is he howard johnson unless they think they can win the pennant this year which seems possible and need boggs to do it i think they re making the same sort of mistake with davis that boston made with boggs leaving him in the minors for two or three years after he d shown that he was a good hitter spike owen see wade boggs i d much rather see them develop dave silvestri or whoever wade and spike next to each other in the infield is going to raise the yankee staff era point and these guys are on the down sides of their careers too bad they gave up on randy valarde too many trips on the columbus shuttle hrm they still have him on the roster ab through the first two weeks they ve just never figured out what to do with him i suspect that he hits enough especially vs lefties to be a reasonable shortstop one rumor running around during spring training was that they wanted to convert silvestri to be a catcher because his body type was wrong for a shortstop you d think that somebody in the same division who plays baltimore about a dozen times a year would know better mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com if one of our guys went down i just doubled it no confusion there it didn t require a rhodes scholar if two of my teammates went down four of yours would i had to protect my guys don drysdale
rec.sport.baseball	re apology for article in article c w zo xl eskimo com steven thornton writes in article apr tesla njit edu drm tesla njit edu writes just watch me mattingly is a below average fielder before you start up yes i have proof there are really only two adequate ways to measure fielding prowess the first which has the advantage of being applicable to older players since it uses raw data available for almost all of mlb history is the total chances per game method favored by the total baseball people among others it basically says that you measure a fielder by how many balls he gets to but it is subject to all kinds of bias and is almost completely useless for first basemen from the raw stats there is no way to tell which of a first baseman s putouts were made on throws from other fielders and which were made on his own plays likewise you can t tell whether a double play was or fielding runs thus gives a first baseman no credit for putouts or double plays only for assists and errors it thus favors first basemen who play deep reaching a lot of balls but forcing the pitcher to cover first more frequently it also hurts first baseman who play behind left handed pitching staffs and thus face few left handed batters a better method but newer and based ondata that has only been collected over the last few years measures the percentage of balls hit into the part of the field the guy is responsible for this is better of course it still isn t all of a first baseman s defense some references mattingly s defensive rating stats method from mike gimbel s baseball player and team ratings defensive average which uses larger and probably better zones has mattingly tied for second in the league on the other hand he has contributed runs by his batting actions a pretty healthy number while batting runs is good it is mostly in the past the runs he produced in don t say much about his value in david grabiner grabiner zariski harvard edu we are sorry but the number you have dialed is imaginary please rotate your phone degrees and try again disclaimer i speak for no one and no one speaks for me
rec.sport.baseball	re bases loaded walk gives reds win in redreport in article mssc w g netcom com mark singer writes in article c vhlh idz usenet ucs indiana edu rstimets silver ucs indiana edu robert and stimets writes in a game that saw a little of everything incredible defense some power clutch pitching and a little wildness the reds managed to overcome their trademark lack of timely hitting in crucial situations during spring training i made a similarly innoncent looking comment about clutch hitting on this bb and the flames were flying no such thing as clutch hitting they the sdcn s all screamed i assumed they also meant there was no such thing as any kind of clutch performance given their comments this is certainly not the case there is no significant ability toi perform in the clutch but clutch performance certainly happens every time there is a game winning hit the clutch pitching quoted above is something which happened not a claim that any particular player should be expected to be a clutch pitcher over the past four seasons sabo has had hits in abs defined as clutch situations by the scouting report for an average of over that same period he had another abs with hits for an average of according to the rest of the sdcn s any differential such as this is completely and totally random and cannot be used for any reasonable inference such as perhaps perez should have used a pinch hitter in that situation simple statistics tell me that there is a chance an average clutch hitter would have this large a split the average decrease is points standard deviation about there will be such hitters in any league just as there will be hitters who hit poorly on tuesdays and there is only a very weak correlation in my best study between clutch hitting in the last four years and clutch hitting this year probably because most of the clutch data is determinaed by luck rather than any ability based only on this data i don t see any reason to pinch hit for sabo or any other player who had been a poor clutch hitter in the past but there are many other factors involved in a decision to pinch hit does the pinch hitter give you a platoon advantage any portion of sabo s clutch split that results from his platoon split is certainly a real ability even if it has nothing to do with clutch hitting do you have a singles hitter at the plate when you need a home run do you have a curveball pitcher facing a batter who has trouble with curves david grabiner grabiner zariski harvard edu we are sorry but the number you have dialed is imaginary please rotate your phone degrees and try again disclaimer i speak for no one and no one speaks for me
rec.sport.baseball	re mvp revisited in article r hf innc gap caltech edu tim shippert writes ideally dhs should be the strongest offensive players because any schmoe can play dh if he can hit that would take care of position corrected anomolies such as frank s since that is not the case and why not is it always this way then we are going to have trouble finding the true value of dhs using the same models as that for position players there are several reasons for this difference the main reason is that good hitters in their prime such as frank thomas and danny tartabull are rarely regular dh s even if they can t field it s more commonly a place to put aging veterans another use of the dh slot is to help a player come back from injury slowly getting his bat in the lineup without forcing him to play in the field i would expect such players to hit worse as dh s than they did during the rest of the season a third factor is that most player who split time between dh and first or the outfield don t hit as well as dh s for some reason reggie jackson was a good example in five years as a rf dh for the angels he hit like the old reggie when he was in right the second and third factors will be lost if players are considered by their primary position only a player who plays games in right and at dh will count only in the right fielders averages a logical starting place would be to look at defensive replacement value if you can find it for b or lf or something we can assume that if forced to play defense they would play at true zero value even though i doubt this is actually true for players like winfield and molitor this would let us discount the time they spend playing dh because that forces the team to find another real fielder to play this makes sense you might also look at it another way although the average offensive performance of a dh may be lower than for a left fielder the replacement level offensive performance is certainly lower if you are a left fielder but can t hit well enough to keep a job anywhere then you certainly can t hit well enough to keep a job at dh david grabiner grabiner zariski harvard edu we are sorry but the number you have dialed is imaginary please rotate your phone degrees and try again disclaimer i speak for no one and no one speaks for me
rec.sport.baseball	re bases loaded walk gives reds win in in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article mssc xb i cg netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes sigh here we go again actually several scdn s stated that there were no definable skills that would make a hitter more likely to perform better in clutch situations vs non clutch situations however one might choose to define clutch right can you define such a skill must i if i were to say that batting average is a predictor that can be used to judge which of two hitters is more likely to get a hit on a particular plate appearance is that only valid if i can define the skill in hitting a baseball that s all i ve said except i used the smaller sample of batting average in clutch situations and elsewhere on this thread sherri nichols repeats her position that batting average in clutch situations is a meaningless statistic for predicting the future it has been entirely meaningless at least if it has meaning we don t know how to find it i did not say i could predict the future i ve suggested that the statistic is not necessarily meaningless here s the data for this situation non clutch clutch ab h ba ab h ba sabo samuel if you were to have been the reds manager at that time i assume you would have had some basis for letting sabo hit rather than pinch hitting samuel i m sure some of that basis would have utilized prior performance you just wouldn t have used this particular aspect of prior performance is this not correct i ll try to avoid being insulting but it s difficult when you so cavalierly dismiss hundreds of hours of work with an i don t pretend to understand but nobody is denying that there are people who have hit well in the clutch in the past but i challenge you to find a method to predict who will hit well in the clutch in the future which after all is what you are claiming you can do since one more time i did not claim to be able to predict the future i said that i accept the above data as an indication that samuel would have had a better chance for success in that situation than sabo and i am not dismissing your work i m stating my opinion you are saying that your work renders any opinion to the contrary invalid so that the retention of that opinion is some kind of insult to your work fine we have plenty of data obviously our preconceived biases must be coloring our work since you know clutch hitting is a well defined and consistent skill all of our failures not withstanding so i challenge you to prove it i guarantee you that if you can prove the existance of some form of clutch ability you will have plenty of happy sdcns dancing around you i did not say that clutch hitting is well defined i said that the data is significant to me i did not say that it is a consistent skill i have said that it is an indicator of performance under a certain set of circumstances but you aren t going to win any support by merely stating a position and claiming they are stupid so i must be right and big sigh i have not not not not not not not ever called you or anyone else on r s b stupid it is nice however to see that you will consider the possibility that you actually could have some preconceived biases yeah hindsight is always doesn t that make you bright this is a stupid argument and you know it ah i knew we could get to the name calling and there s that word you like so much a suggestion take data from and attempt to come up with some method that predicts who hit well in the clutch in if that works we can then attempt to apply it to and beyond wait a minute i thought i first had to define clutch hitting do i or don t i you have made strong statements now back them up or be proven a total idiot i made two statements in my post i am not convinced of your conclusions regarding clutch hitting i would have hit for sabo as for many of us make a number of written statements through this media about what we think will happen in baseball i m not shy about it i ll make the statement again i believe that by season s end that chris sabo s batting average in clutch situations will be significantly lower than his batting average in non clutch situations i can t prove that it will happen so i guess we ll just have to wait and see here s another one for you in joe carter s batting average in clutch situations was significantly below his batting average in non clutch situations each year i presume you think this is random non clutch ab h clutch ab h so what could we expect in from mr carter well his composite ba through was through was through was so i think we have a pretty good idea of what kind of batting average he can produce in he hit not surprising huh also in non clutch ab h clutch ab h no this doesn t prove any overall statistical trend that can be used to predict future performance across the breadth of major league ballplayers it just makes me think that in joe carter s batting average in the clutch is not going to be as high as his ba in non clutch situations as for above i have plenty of company john dewan of stats inc is the editor of the scouting report wherein the statistics regarding clutch hitting are compiled reported and referenced in the text bill james makes numerous references to a player s ability to hit well in the clutch i am not saying that i can predict the future any more than they are you and others are saying that your work renders their statements and mine meaningless i don t accept that which in your words proves that i am a total idiot stupid total idiot my my such hostility the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	mea culpa bosio no no like clinton and reno i accept full responsibility for this senseless disaster my wife and i picked this game to go to and thus caused the return of the pre season projected sox offense like all no no s bosio was good lucky hard grounder by vaughn off t martinez glove but straight to boone who threw to bosio at first and backed by good defense many non trivial groundouts the game was amazingly fast as the sox tended to go down quickly and hesketh was also working fast the sox relief pitching was ok the runs off quantrill were on two ridiculous bloops and a hard line single which greenwell let get past him trying for a catch greenwell s mental stability is a serious concern i guess it has always been but his quirks were amusing back when he was an mvp candidate wednesday he got in a huff with johnson a after striking out on a bad inside pitch apparently johnson made an ok i ve got to stay focused gesture which iron mike interpreted as taunting and struck out to heavy booing the next two times as valentine noted last night he came up in the first after riles and quintana had walked to open the game can you say take the first pitch not mike who dribbled it into a the pi quoted bosio that this was a batting practice fastball next time up he also hit the first pitch a hard liner straight to kgjr in center he also made the pathetic error and failed to catch boone s hr which looked comparable to the ball lance johnson caught on the highlight reel that night is riles suppsoed to be good defensively i couldn t tell from the field angle but his range looked bad and he coughed a dp that cost a run or two why was he leadoff i hope fletcher gets well soon also on lineups pinella put bret boone fifth for reasons beyond me it seemed to work as he was with a hr and some good defense a wag behind us said he sure don t want to go back to calgary there is a theory that you put a leadoff type fifth because they ll likely lead off the second as boone did well now we face the hot angels and another power pitcher in langston a reminder that contest entries are open through next wednesday i expect a surge of pessimism by the way ties will be broken by earliest entry one entry per person or pseudonym please and easy on the pseudonyms dave mb
rec.sport.baseball	re mlb c in article cvbnetprime com cvalcour ptex prime com sorry i missed the posting wrote could some kind soul please email me a copy of mlb c thanks chris v cvalcour ptex prime com mlb c is archived on the internet baseball archive anoymous ftp to eucalyptus cc swarthmore edu you must use your full email username id as a password cd baseball schedules it s filed as mlb schedule program c for clarity schedules pre generated for east coast times are there as text files as well and a couple of teams tv schedules please send me more tv info if you have it on other teams matt matt wall wall cc swarthmore edu hey i gotta job here ok april boston red sox seize first place
rec.sport.baseball	re nicknaming frank bolick in article hydra gatech edu gt e prism gatech edu michael andre mule wrote in article qu inn ti lynx unm edu kbos carina unm edu k mitchell bose writes in article qs pn f zippy telcom arizona edu r joplin biosci arizona edu doug roberts writes doug roberts willing to trade frank bolick for a bag of used baseballs let s go expos one fun note from the rockies home opener i think frank bolick s nickname should be sarge because whenever we saw his name in denver for the expo series there was a big e next to it in the spirit of chris berman how about frank cerial bolick ho ho ha ha how about frank jacksonsuck bolick or frank cake icing bolick or frank it s not a cow but a bolick or frank how do you get a ribbon to stay on a birthday present bolick or frank burns bolick or frank lee bad player bolick or frank i suck not bolick and so on matt wall wall cc swarthmore edu hey i gotta job here ok april boston red sox seize first place
rec.sport.baseball	re southpaw in article ij news cso uiuc edu rap uxa cso uiuc edu underdog writes can anyone out there tell me why they call left handed pitchers i dont know about the story but it comes from the fact that in most stadiums the batter faces northeast and so when a pitcher is on the mound his left arm is to the south hence the term southpaw also the story on how the term originated thanks go cubs prediction they will finish over this year without winning the east
rec.sport.baseball	re sbs hrs dans fore csd sgi com dan steinman writes last night on the giants mets radio broadcast hank and ted were discussing the fact that there were only players who had ever hit homeruns and stolen bases in their career while hojo was batting anyone have a list not as easy as it sounds to come up with all of them i couldn t mays mantle aaron henderson morgan bonds dad frank robinson molitor yount guessing now i d be interested to see the whole list first please watch your line lengths not everyone has autowrap second franklin to the rescue here s the list player hr sb aaron mays frobinson rjackson winfield dawson baylor bobonds wynn strawberry morgan pinson yount kgibson sandberg players marked with an are still active numbers through that s only the th is probably rickey henderson who was listed at hr sb or george brett listed as sb hr the surprises probably reggie bayor and wynn for steals maybe morgan to a lot of people for homers i was kind of surprised to realize that sandberg has that many steals though i wasn t surprised that the number was mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com dreams are real while they last can we say more of life havelock ellis
rec.sport.baseball	re winfield s spot on the all time greats team in article c wewd kto murdoch acc virginia edu drw l delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker writes in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david m tate writes winfield can t touch frank robinson or mel ott as far as i can tell you d also have a hard time convincing me to rate him better than or equal to clemente two sets of numbers career equivalent average and equivalent runs ruth aaron ott robinson clemente winfield ruth is in a class by himself for both rate eqa and total eqr performance aaron runs over everybody in the total category ott and robinson who lead winfield in both categories could be safely put ahead of ahead of him reggie too although he is barely ahead these numbers are normalized for league and park clemente is held down by some really anemic offensive production in his earliest years and was still productive when he died it is reasonably safe to assume he had runs more he could have gotten still jackson waner clemente and winfield form a pretty tight knot yes but a we were talking about peak level not career averages and b clemente was the best fielding rf of all time as far as anyone can tell i did a quick scan last night looking for players with a peak comparable to or better than winfield in my quick n dirty subjective judgement you could make good cases for ruth aaron ott robinson clemente kaline maris klein jackson waner and probably a few others this is not a knock on winfield but a comment on his consistency all of those other players had awesome stretches and very good stretches while winfield has been more uniformly excellent hall of fame absolutely top peak i m not so sure top total career value yes almost certainly david m tate my free agent says he will be no one s but mine dtate pitt edu not even should steinbrenner himself try to seduce him prof of story probs he says but what player says to owner the big catullus write it on the wind or swift running water
rec.sport.baseball	bosio s no hitter i watched the final inning of bosio s no hitter with several people at work after vizquel made that barehanded grab of the chopper up the middle someone remarked that if he had fielded it with his glove he wouldn t have had time to throw riles out yet the throw beat riles by about two steps i wonder how many others who watched the final out think vizquel had no choice but to make the play with his bare hand does anybody think vizquel was wrong to field the ball barehanded and if he failed to field it cleanly would it or should it have been an error or a hit judging from bosio s grimace when the ball bounced past him he must have thought it would go through for a hit whether vizquel was right or wrong he certainly made one hell of a play phil brown aka pb csc albany edu
rec.sport.baseball	re apology for article in article grabiner apr germain harvard edu writes but it is subject to all kinds of bias and is almost completely useless for first basemen from the raw stats there is no way to tell which of a first baseman s putouts were made on throws from other fielders and which were made on his own plays likewise you can t tell whether a double play was or fielding runs thus gives a first baseman no credit for putouts or double plays only for assists and errors but ingnoring putouts is biased in yet another way range is not the only thing that makes a good firstbaseman the ability to field all sorts of balls thrown to him digging some out of the dirt stretching for others and so forth is important thus putouts do provide some information maybe what we need is a comparision of how many balls were thrown to the area of the first baseman vs how many he actually got jim mann stratus computer jmann vineland pubs stratus com
rec.sport.baseball	houston mailing list can anyone mail me the address of houston s mailing list thanks in advance j scott smithers smithers dcseq uscga edu
rec.sport.baseball	bosox go down in smoke ii seattle oh yea and chris bosio pitched a no hitter one over the minimum two bases on ball in the first inning one runner left pitches i listened to the game on radio and listening to dave niehaus call the game was a real treat as long as they keep ron fairly quite i doubt if anyone is better than niehaus but that fairly guy is really annoying me but i guess if clemens or viola had been pitching it would have been a different story two shutouts in two nights against the hottest best hitting team in major league baseball pretty impressive in any league man if johnson bosio and hanson keep going the mariners could be a really interesting team to follow this year also john cummings rookie has had three solid outings with no support if fleming comes back this may be the best starting staff in the american league this year relief is another story though grimace too cool the first no hitter that i have been able to follow from start to end and again i think niehaus will win some kind of award for the way he called the game the guy is truly a joy to listen to he deserves a pennant race kent dietz twins in mariners if only they were an nl team follow
rec.sport.baseball	giants tickets for sale i m a season ticket holder and have a pair of s f giants tickets available for every game except opening day they re located in lower reserved section row they re two rows about feet behind the mvp lower box seats that go for apiece i m selling my tickets for pair here s the schedule for the next weeks e mail me if you re interested note all times are pacific daylight savings time apr new york pm apr new york pm apr montreal pm may montreal pm may montreal pm may philadelphia pm may philadelphia pm may los angeles pm may los angeles pm may los angeles pm may houston pm may houston pm may houston pm may cincinnati pm may cincinnati pm may cincinnati pm may cincinnati pm june pittsburgh pm june pittsburgh pm june pittsburgh pm june pittsburgh pm june st louis pm june st louis pm june chicago pm june chicago pm june chicago pm june san diego pm june san diego pm june san diego pm june colorado pm june colorado pm june colorado pm june colorado pm craig eid e mail address craige hpsad sad hp com
rec.sport.baseball	professional sports on fm radio i am curious to known if there are any professional sports teams whose games are regularly broadcast on an fm station the only one i am aware of is wysp in philadelphia who carries the eagles games if you respond to me i will summarize for the list bruce slutsky slutsky tesla njit edu
rec.sport.baseball	are the orioles phillies at home on mem day wkend subject sez it wondering if either team are in town that weekend i can probably get phillies tix as the vet can hold a bunch and i hope they re still in st but it s late may and camden yards is a problem is there any way of getting in the park w o an sro ticket any advice if there at home joe leonard jle world std com p s please reply directly to keep the net down to a dull roar
rec.sport.baseball	john franco what s with john franco the mets are hardly using him i heard he was completely recovered but now i m not so sure if there is anybody out there with information about franco i would appreciate it if you could drop me a line jason lee jplee oboe calpoly edu jlee cash busfac calpoly edu sf giants e i pi the most beautiful equation in mathematics magic for all sad words of tongue and pen the saddest are these number it might have been john greenleaf whittier
rec.sport.baseball	re braves offense in article apr news acns nwu edu rsavage casbah acns nwu edu michael bornhorst writes i ve been a braves fan for as long as i ve been watching baseball almost years now i say that just tp preface what i m about to post this braves team is made up of slow starters people are amazed that the braves aren t hitting don t be they weren t hitting last year at this time nor were they the year before they had slow aprils and mays in the and seasons and yet they still managed to go to the series in those years well this team is no different so why should we be suprised at their slow start they started that way for the past two years and they ll be that way until the richmond club makes it to the majors judge their offense in june or july when things start to average out i m just happy that the reds have gotten off to such a poor start the giants always do well in the early part of the season but they ll be out of the race by july just like the last few years unless bond s developes a knuckelball their staff will get rocked by mid june wow you really know how to hurt a guy guess i shouldn t bother watching any more games it s already been decided luigi randy palermo luigi csd sgi com fax silicon graphics computer systems n shoreline blvd mt view ca play an accordion go to jail that s the law
rec.sport.baseball	re bases loaded walk gives reds win in in article c xwai nu news cso uiuc edu hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu harold brooks writes in article mssc xb i cg netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes i don t pretend to understand statistical analysis well we agree on the last part cool and thank you for an intelligent response devoid of the silly name calling of others one of the basic things you need to have in a statistic to be able to predict a player s performance on it in the future is for there to be a correlation from year to year a player s batting average is correlated fairly well from year to year ok the basic problems with something like clutch batting average overall batting average is that the correlation from year to year is almost zero adding to the sample size doesn t seem to help much actually i think the large scale sample size is part of the problem it seems to me that if we were to plot all the players in baseball in regard to ba vs clutch ba deviation we would get some kind of bell curve the x axis being the deviation in clutch hitting vs non clutch the y axis being the number of players certainly there would be some players on the extreme ends of the bell my supposition is that if we were to find the same players consistently year after year at one end of the bell or the other then we might be able to make some reasonable conclusions about those players as opposed to all baseball players as a counterexample to what you showed consider the following two players from non clutch clutch ab h ba ab h ba maldonado lemon if you had had these two players in by your logic in those clutch situations you d bat maldonado for lemon in a blink of an eye well in maldonado hit in non clutch and in clutch while lemon hit in non clutch and in clutch before you accuse me of completely cooking the data you won t hear those kind of accusations from me it is interesting that you selected maldonado because he is someone whom i have also looked at he has been a very inconsistent hitter in terms of ba hitting in admittedly he has been traded between leagues as well as clubs his clutch hitting record is equally inconsistent so for my purposes in i would not draw any conclusions about his ability to hit in the clutch based on his prior performance i don t know how i would have felt in but you may indeed be right when i looked at sabo i found a more consistent record of hitting and a more consistent pattern of his clutch hitting being proportionately below his non clutch ba ditto for joe carter this probably brings us to the heart of the disagreement i am having with others on this topic must any conclusion based on statistical history be able to be applied broadly throughout a data base before it has any validity is it impossible or irrational to apply statistical analysis to selected components of the data base btw correlating players overall batting average from with gives a correlation coefficient of which is significant at something better than the confidence level correlating their clutch non clutch ba for the same period gives a correlation of significant at no level of any interest i completely accept that reasoning again what if we were to find the same individuals at each end of the spectrum on a consistent basis actually it s technically incorrect to say that we can t predict future clutch performance it s more correct to say that we can t predict future clutch performance with any skill amen the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	re professional sports on fm radio in article apr tesla njit edu slutsky tesla njit edu writes i am curious to known if there are any professional sports teams whose games are regularly broadcast on an fm station the only one i am aware of is wysp in philadelphia who carries the eagles games if you respond to me i will summarize for the list wip is the real home of the eagles merril reese and the birds on fm radio what a joke a classic rock station at that whats the sports world coming to when i think of a good signature it will be right about here until then this stupid message will have to do go phillies
rec.sport.baseball	re bases loaded walk gives reds win in in article mssc y d netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes sigh here we go again you started it for predicting the future it has been entirely meaningless at least if it has meaning we don t know how to find it i did not say i could predict the future you most certainly did non clutch clutch ab h ba ab h ba sabo samuel sabo is clearly a better hitter than samuel yet you would pinch hit samuel because you predict that samuel will be a clutch hitter and sabo will be a choke hitter right i d call that predicting the future if you were to have been the reds manager at that time i assume you would have had some basis for letting sabo hit rather than pinch hitting samuel i m sure some of that basis would have utilized prior performance you just wouldn t have used this particular aspect of prior performance is this not correct right i would have used aspects of prior performance which have been shown to be consistent in the past overall performance l r splits even matching hitting pitching styles all of these will give me some advantage if used properly even if all else were equal there would be no advantage gained by looking at past clutch performance and in this case everything else pointed to sabo one more time i did not claim to be able to predict the future i said that i accept the above data as an indication that samuel would have had a better chance for success in that situation than sabo that comes down to the same thing when perez left sabo in he was predicting the future the next ab he was predicting that sabo was more likely to get a hit than samuel by supporting the swap you are predicting the opposite and i am not dismissing your work i m stating my opinion you are saying that your work renders any opinion to the contrary invalid so that the retention of that opinion is some kind of insult to your work well yes you are aware of its existance you claim to be incapable of understanding it though i suspect you are simply unwilling yet you rather forcefully state the opposite you don t seem to think the work is worth reading yet you obviously feel the topic is important i d say this is insulting i did not say that it is a consistent skill i have said that it is an indicator of performance under a certain set of circumstances right this is the beef it has not proven to be an indicator of future performance under any circumstances at least none that we ve been able to come up with if you know of some where it is an indicator of future performance please let us in on your secret it is nice however to see that you will consider the possibility that you actually could have some preconceived biases most certainly as i have repeatedly stated if you can come up with a study which even hints at a consistent clutch ability i would love it however the straightforward attempts at such a study have all failed miserably yeah hindsight is always doesn t that make you bright this is a stupid argument and you know it ah i knew we could get to the name calling and there s that word you like so much well it was a stupid argument are you honestly debating that sure we know sabo didn t get a hit we have no idea whether samuel would have done any better or not one ab most certainly doesn t prove anything i believe that by season s end that chris sabo s batting average in clutch situations will be significantly lower than his batting average in non clutch situations i can t prove that it will happen so i guess we ll just have to wait and see is this simply a prediction for chris sabo for this year or is this a prediction for all batters who have over the past few years hit xxx amount worse in the clutch than overall if you mean the first then as you say we ll just have to wait and see but the second is a much stronger statement in fact it suggests a rule we can then test this rule on past data to see if it worked for recent years i think you will agree that if the rule didn t work last year or the year before that it is unlikely to do any better this year right here s another one for you in joe carter s batting average in clutch situations was significantly below his batting average in non clutch situations each year i presume you think this is random i m not going to get into case analysis sure you can find somebody who hit poorly from and then hit poorly in as well you can also find those who hit poorly from and then hit well in no this doesn t prove any overall statistical trend that can be used to predict future performance across the breadth of major league ballplayers it just makes me think that in joe carter s batting average in the clutch is not going to be as high as his ba in non clutch situations gambler s fallacy unless there is reason to expect consistency a run proves nothing can you give us a reason to expect clutch ba to correlate from one year to the next i ve seen a detailed study of why i shouldn t expect it to correlate stupid total idiot my my such hostility the stupid was in reference to a statement which was stupid and i don t see how you can deny it as for total idiot yes if you prove yourself unwilling to even consider evidence that might suggest that you are wrong i would say the term fits nicely so tell me does the term fit or do you have an open mind valentine
rec.sport.baseball	re seattle bb was re al stats and standings in article r rctinn dd senator bedfellow mit edu cmk athena mit edu charles m kozierok writes in article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione writes griffey well most of it are intentional walks are you sure about this i d say pitching around him is more likely yeah maybe that is more likely but from the mariners tigers series it seems like every time there are base runners the pitchers seem to purposely pitch around him or give him a free pass the funny thing was that griffey was struggling up until the last game of the four game series if i remember correctly chung yang cheers charles
rec.sport.baseball	good hands was re apology for article in article c w zo xl eskimo com stevet eskimo com steven thornton writes stuff deleted mattingly scores badly on both counts he doesn t get to very many balls and he lets a lot of balls go through the fact that he looks smooth has great hands and makes few errors means nothing this is traditional brainless reliance on observations that can easily be misled like a lot of bad fielders mattingly actually makes himself look better by not having any range he s nowhere near as bad as steve garvey but that s not much of a compliment i agree with the flavor of this post but disagree with one specific argument that has great hands means nothing it seems to me that a first baseman s defensive value is not entirely or even primarily from his ability to field grounders or catch popups how many such chances does he get during a game many fewer than he gets chances to catch throws from b ss b and p i mean the total of these is much higher than grounder popup totals this implies to me that there is value in catching these throws well even if they are high up the line or in the dirt good hands are needed for such plays and thus have value i don t have any numbers for the relative number of occurences of these plays but i d guess that the values of these abilities are similar it s just like you don t judge catcher s defense primarily on how they field bunts and popups but not as marked i suppose michael
rec.sport.baseball	yanks over a s george speaks how about matt nokes run single against ron darling was that a hit or what while watching the game yesterday they flashed up something regarding the boss talking about mark connor as bullpen coach he said something like it s mark connor s fault that the bullpen is so horrible here we go again george sticking his non baseball nose in the baseball business shut up george just spend the money get the players and leave buck and the coaches and players alone
rec.sport.baseball	re john wetteland derek lilliquist info please i was wondering if anyone knew if john wetteland was put on the dl again after his first day period was up i read in the usa today sports section that he is on for surgery to repair broken toe and was wondering if that was new i thought he was just letting it heal as of today s usa today john wetteland should come off of the dl tonight and possibly pitch in the series this weekend i forget who they play another question is derek lilliquist the main closer for the indians now that olin is gone i need to know cause i need to find a reliever to replace wetteland and so far lilliquist is doing ok any information on either of the players would be greatly appreciated thank you for your time derek lilliquist is probably going to be the main closer but it will be kind of a bullpen by committee also charles james if you don t care where you re going lehigh university then you ain t lost cej lehigh edu anonymous person in csc
rec.sport.baseball	re old predictions to laugh at in article wilbanks spot colorado edu wilbanks spot colorado edu kokopeli writes my prediction the red sox cubs series and vikings broncos superbore will occur at the end of the world so which one will officially be the end of the world i can see the end of the ws now well folks here it is bottom of the ninth bases loaded full count on sandberg in this game clemens winds heres the pitch swung on and it is a line drive to center zupcic moves to his left he s there and zot joec godot cyprs rain com warning elvis impersonating can be hazardous joec ursula ee pdx edu to your health it sure won t help your reputation i bike therefore i am go red sox go celtics go seahawks go sonics
rec.sport.baseball	kevin mitchell does it again in what seems to be a classic mitchell move he drops a fly ball and injures his hamstring on the same play haven t heard anything on how serious the leg is paul who me bitter about mitchell s performance in seattle nah we will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen hewlett packard home nw mckinley corvallis or a sabr member since
rec.sport.baseball	re professional sports on fm radio in article c y wt gpw news udel edu philly ravel udel edu robert c hite writes in article apr tesla njit edu slutsky tesla njit edu writes i am curious to known if there are any professional sports teams whose games are regularly broadcast on an fm station the only one i am aware of is wysp in philadelphia who carries the eagles games if you respond to me i will summarize for the list wip is the real home of the eagles merril reese and the birds on fm radio what a joke at least we can hear the joke more than yards outside city limits now will wip ever strngthen their signal ken
rec.sport.baseball	skydome tix my schedule is flexible so any games are candidates ac though i d prefer to see texas hi tony i think that i might be able to help you out the rangers are here in toronto thursday july th through sunday july th and tickets should not be hard to find if you order them far enough in advance although i don t have a ticket broker s telephone number off hand if you give me a couple of days i will be able to get a hold a of a couple the blue jays ticket info is or if you want to order by credit card call if you let me know when you want the tickets i can save you a possible long distance call if all else fails i might be able to pull a few strings and get you a pair let me know whats happening drew carley toronto canada deluxe go away or i shall taunt you a second time canada remote systems toronto ontario
rec.sport.baseball	the braves will come around to all the braves doubters don t worry the bats will come alive and the braves will come around the pitching is solid and as long the braves don t have serious injuries to the starting rotation they ll continue to pitch well heck with the five starters on the braves rotation they could even sustain an injury to one of the five i hope this doesn t happen though the bats are there pendleton will certainly bat over justice is catching fire bream nixon sanders gant well there s too much offense there to be kept quiet for much longer right now the cleveland indians have players batting over but i certainly wouldn t their seven for our respective seven though wouldn t the braves be something right now with their pitching and players batting over the bullpen well it is suspect but when the bats come alive the guys in the bullpen will be of less concern so anyway i believe the braves will be tough to beat this season i m not saying the braves have automatically won the division but i m optim istic about their season though it s awful painful to watch them at times right now go braves dean
rec.sport.baseball	re game length was re braves update i sent a version of this post out a while ago but it was swallowed by the void my apologies if anyone ends up receiving it sherri nichols writes in article apr vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes i just don t happen to think that the minutes added to the length of games over the last years has added anything interesting how would you quantify that i suppose an easy way would be to look at attendance figures anyone got the numbers attendance figures aren t going to quantify anything about my personal opinion which the above is clearly stated as add to me to the end of my sentence if you re confused about what i meant oh no i wasn t confused i understood that it was your personal opinion but i thought we were discussing the need to shorten games the arguments which declare this need seem to hinge on the assertion that long games bore people and otherwise discourage them from going to the ballpark i d like to see if the increased length of games has negatively affected attendance if it has then there is a problem and something should be done about it if it hasn t then there isn t a problem and there s no need to monkey with things as they are heather hhenderson vax clarku edu
rec.sport.baseball	re reason for giants june swoon giants off to a fast start in article apr bnlux bnl gov kyee bnlux bnl gov kenton yee writes in article nxm psuvm psu edu nxm psuvm psu edu writes the giants have won of their last games behind some solid pitching excluding that win against atlanta if they can stay around first place after say the first games i think they ve got a legitimate chance at winning the pennant and maybe even more than that don t you remember that the giants were in st place as late as june last year then their pitching collapsed their problem is they have optimistically only good starting pitchers swift brantly and the bowler can t remember his name the other starters are extremely unreliable and often get blasted before innings that means the already shallow bullpen gets over worked this means after a few months the bullpen collapses and their post all star record tends to be much worst than their pre all star record the bowler is john burkett who went to last night he is a bargain pickup on my roto team i got him at a minimum of just a thought does someone have the won lost pre post allstar records for the giants the last few seasons i bet their records tends to be worst and worst as the season goes on this is not really true excluding last season the giants has been a better nd half team in they had a hot august to pull to within a few games of the braves and dodgers before fading in september the giants may go back to earth but not as fast as last season for two reasons barry bonds roger craig is no longer the manager dusty can manage his pitching staffs much better than craig edward hui
rec.sport.baseball	re bases loaded walk gives reds win in in article mssc y u dn netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes actually i think the large scale sample size is part of the problem it seems to me that if we were to plot all the players in baseball in regard to ba vs clutch ba deviation we would get some kind of bell curve the x axis being the deviation in clutch hitting vs non clutch the y axis being the number of players certainly there would be some players on the extreme ends of the bell right most definitely my supposition is that if we were to find the same players consistently year after year at one end of the bell or the other then we might be able to make some reasonable conclusions about those players as opposed to all baseball players this may be the root of the confusion please consider the following hypothetical with an open mind note that i am not yet saying that it has anything to do with the question at hand suppose we have a simplified lotto game you pick a number from and win if that number is drawn suppose we have a large population of people who play this game every week in the first year of the game approximately of the population will win or more times in the second year of the game of those time winners will again be time winners in the third year of the game of those who won or more times in each of the first two years will win again suppose i started with people in my population after three years i have people who have consistently in each of the last three years won or more the number of times expected do we expect them to be big winners in the fourth year of the game no because we know there is no skill involved nothing about these consistent winners can influence their chances of winning but suppose we don t know whether or not there is a chance that skill might be involved perhaps some of the people in our population are psychic or something how would we test this hypothesis we can look for correlations in the population now most of the population will show zero correlation but our psychics should show a high positive correlation even if they aren t very good psychics they should still manage to win or more times most years net result a small positive correlation over the entire population this probably brings us to the heart of the disagreement i am having with others on this topic must any conclusion based on statistical history be able to be applied broadly throughout a data base before it has any validity is it impossible or irrational to apply statistical analysis to selected components of the data base well zero correlation is zero correlation you mention that sabo has hit poorly in the clutch over the last years but if we look at the past we find that clutch patterns are just as likely to reverse as they are to remain consistent the length of the streak doesn t seem to make a difference to the probability that the player will be clutch or choke the next year is there any reason to expect this streak to be different from past streaks now if it were true that of all three year streaks remained true to form then we might have something useful but then we wouldn t have zero correlation instead we have of all three year streaks remain true to form and of all three year streaks reverse you look at those numbers and say three year choke streak implies more likely to choke this year but it would be equally valid to look at those numbers and say three year choke streak implies more likely to be clutch this year since the probabilities are split each way i completely accept that reasoning again what if we were to find the same individuals at each end of the spectrum on a consistent basis then we would have something useful and we would also have a positive correlation but for every individual that exhibits such a pattern and holds true there is another who exhibits such a pattern and then reverses cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	teams as organisms stats or stats was re jack morris note i m not posting this as part of an argument with roger meynard but as an independent sort of thread i do actually quote some things that roger meynard wrote but it might be better to think of this as sampling his post in the hip hop sense because it fits in with what i want to say maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes but the point is that the only decision making pro cess used to determine the best is the score of the game and it re lates to the teams not the individual players there is no method inherent in baseball of comparing individual performances and that is how it should be because after all baseball is a team game there s an interesting parallel between this way of viewing a baseball team and some people s conception of a biological organism in the biology context we would very likely read fitness for the score of the game and organisms for teams how we interpret players is trickier but either organs or genes might seem reasonable choices depending on what point we were trying to make a genes interpretation actually might be really interesting in this case but that would be a different and probably longer post if however we take the organ view then our knowledge of biology should make us pause before we start saying things like species x is more fit than species y because of a better organ z given what we know about the interdependence of organs we would often be suspicious of such claims but note that this type of argument is quite often made when you map species x onto humans and organ z onto brain on the other hand some statements of this kind do seem more reasonable than others as far as we can test them e g brain above might be more reasonable than pancreas assuming no gross pathology particularly if species y is a primate even when you make such statements you should be concerned with the functioning of the whole organism and the possibility that one organ might be more crucial for one species and a second organ in another not to mention the possibility that no organ is particularly crucial in some third species however if we are non vitalists with any kind of reductionsit streak we will want to say that an organism is not some completely magical unanalyzable whole but an intriguing process made up of various subprocesses that interact in ways that are potentially observable some of these processes might be localized to particular organs while others may be distributed across multiple organs in a way this is just like a baseball team except that i think it is pretty clear that the processes and interactions involved in baseball are much simpler and less numerous than in most organisms to say that one player is better than another is to be able to say ab solutely that player a s team would have played better with player b in their lineup sheer speculation impossible to ascertain one thing that is quite difficult about baseball is that perfectly controlled experiments are sometimes very tough to do but of course this has never stopped researchers from doing the best they can and sometimes deriving very powerful conclusions even in the absence of certainty most of this goes far beyond sheer speculation but even sheer speculation can motivate further interesting research if you want to select a group of statistics and claim that clemens has done better than another pitcher with those statistics as a criteria then fine in this cases we re seeing the word statistics means summary of observed events where the events themselves can be viewed as the output of some process and possibly inputs for other processes thus if we have any valid notion of how the processes are put together into the functioning organism data in the form of statistics might give us a basis to test particular hypotheses but you have to be able to prove that those statistics measure the individual s contribution to winning the ws because that is the only measure of best that has any meaning in the context of baseball this statement brings us back to the concept of fitness again fitness is defined in terms of both an organism and its environment you might be fit in one situation and not another moving to baseball it is clear that each team spends the entire season in an environment including all the other teams in the league in at least a nominal sense the division winners are the fittest teams in the league in that they on average had better fitness scores than any of their competing opponennts but in a real sense there is a fairly large random component in the performance of each team that is difficult if not impossible to account for in terms of factors intrinsic to or interesting for baseball the same is true in biology but here is also no direct biological equivalent of the world series in basebal in the world series the random component may be greatly magnified by the small number of games that are played and both teams suddenly experience huge changes from the environement where they were originally successful it might be fun to watch but it s unclear what it all really means now just one more un related point i have yet to see that any of you can predict a ws winner with any greater accuracy than jeanne dixon on the other hand you have seen some of us who can predict the outcome of the divisional races better than a random assignment of teams to finishes and maybe some of us e g me who can do this better than the other participants in this forum on a regular basis but this is probably only due to the fact that a game schedule gives you a little hope that bad hops aren t the only difference between the winners and the losers moreover you ve had the opportunity to see some analysis of the world series situation that makes the strong claim that nobody can predict the ws winner with reliably greater accuracy than a coin biased only to reflect the well known home vs road effect on winning percentage the stats are a nice hobby and that s about it there is no new knowledge being produced since stats are summaries of events it s true that if you know the events you can derive the stats but if somebody is trying to understand the process behind the stats then the stats produce new knowledge and some of this might even be reliable repeatable and useful speaking of which i should get back to producing knowledge in a different field that is of course if i can produce knowledge even though i m relying on stats to do it jking
rec.sport.baseball	re twins update in article apr sctc com macomber sctc com chuck macomber writes twins update posted april jim deshaies continues to be the surprise of not only the twins but of the american league as well going into today s game deshaies was with a era deshaies allowed earned runs in innings meaning his era will climb slightly deshaies who came to mn via a trade with philadelphia which sent david west there continues to make andy macphail look like a true genius minor correction hartley came in the west trade to phily deshaies signed as a free agent m over years he pitched for san diego last year regards maynard brandt cray research inc
rec.sport.baseball	re bosio s no hitter pb csc albany edu brown philip h writes i watched the final inning of bosio s no hitter with several people at work after vizquel made that barehanded grab of the chopper up the middle someone remarked that if he had fielded it with his glove he wouldn t have had time to throw riles out yet the throw beat riles by about two steps i wonder how many others who watched the final out think vizquel had no choice but to make the play with his bare hand in this morning s paper or was it on the radio vizquel was quoted as saying that he could have fielded the ball with his glove and still easily thrown out riles that he barehanded it instead so as to make the final play more memorable seems a litle cocky to me but he made it work so he s entitled doug dudgeon dept of chemical engineering bf dudgeon opus cheme washington edu university of washington seattle this space available
rec.sport.baseball	re bases loaded walk gives reds win in redreport in article grabiner apr germain harvard edu grabiner math harvard edu david grabiner writes in article mssc w g netcom com mark singer writes based only on this data i don t see any reason to pinch hit for sabo or any other player who had been a poor clutch hitter in the past but there are many other factors involved in a decision to pinch hit does the pinch hitter give you a platoon advantage any portion of sabo s clutch split that results from his platoon split is certainly a real ability even if it has nothing to do with clutch hitting do you have a singles hitter at the plate when you need a home run do you have a curveball pitcher facing a batter who has trouble with curves hey what s this we agree no platoon advantage sabo vs samuel both players have a reputation of being excellent fastball hitters and both have a reputation of being fooled too often with slow curves and change ups sabo has more power and a little bit of a better batting eye samuel is noted as an agressive free swinger sabo has more homerun power both players started the game hitting below there may have been some game considerations that might have prompted perez to want to reserve samuel for use later but the game was on the line and samuel never did get in given all of this i don t see a lot to suggest pinch hitting nor do i see anything to suggest no pinch hitting there is of course the clutch hitting information but if that s useless then again if it s not david grabiner grabiner zariski harvard edu we are sorry but the number you have dialed is imaginary please rotate your phone degrees and try again disclaimer i speak for no one and no one speaks for me mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	some baseball trivia who holds the record for most career strikeouts while playing for one team who holds the record for most career strikeouts for the rangers hint nolan ryan isn t either what two pitchers have over career saves for two different teams who is the only player to hit or more career home runs and steal or more career bases for the same team no fair peeking at your baseball stats phil allen texdude cs bradley edu
rec.sport.baseball	re yankee thoughts in article mjones fenway mjones fenway aix kingston ibm com mike jones writes scott asd com scott barman writes in article apr clam com sam steamer clam com sam mandelbaum writes wade boggs i live in boston and like wade a lot but his career is winding down and i would rather see the yanks start to develop a long term solution i e hensley muelins russ davis velarde besides wade just doesn t have any range what a shame about charlie hayes huh who would you have playing b wade boggs or charlie hayes my choice is boggs no contest it will give them time to develop younger talent in an area the yankee farm system seems to be deficient a hem two words russell davis playing in the cavern at albany aa last year down the alleys and to center davis went with homers there aren t any small parks on the road in the eastern league either he s and his mle was hr i have no fielding statistics but from seeing him a number of times last year i d say that he s not brooks robinson but neither is he howard johnson unless they think they can win the pennant this year which seems possible and need boggs to do it i think they re making the same sort of mistake with davis that boston made with boggs leaving him in the minors for two or three years after he d shown that he was a good hitter spike owen see wade boggs i d much rather see them develop dave silvestri or whoever wade and spike next to each other in the infield is going to raise the yankee staff era point and these guys are on the down sides of their careers too bad they gave up on randy valarde too many trips on the columbus shuttle hrm they still have him on the roster ab through the first two weeks they ve just never figured out what to do with him i suspect that he hits enough especially vs lefties to be a reasonable shortstop one rumor running around during spring training was that they wanted to convert silvestri to be a catcher because his body type was wrong for a shortstop you d think that somebody in the same division who plays baltimore about a dozen times a year would know better mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com if one of our guys went down i just doubled it no confusion there it didn t require a rhodes scholar if two of my teammates went down four of yours would i had to protect my guys don drysdale in regard to boggs i ll relate a story about a yankee fan at fenway last year for opening day i was there to see them face baltimore and couldn t help but listen to the boston fans talk about various players on the team one guy was totally obliterating boggs how he sucks etc i told him i was a yankee fan and i d take him in a second and who would he want in a trade back he said a pile of sh t i know boggs had some personal problems while playing for boston but come on he s a future hall of famer who really adds a needed dimension to the yanks a solid hitter a decent fielder and more importantly a teacher ask pat kelly i think he s got a few good years left in his bat and may be a key contributor down the stretch as they win the american league east this year boston fans have no class they ll probably boo him like crazy his first time back in pinstripes and i hope he goes for and shuts them up
rec.sport.baseball	re bosox go down in smoke ii seattle dietz parody data io com kent dietz writes oh yea and chris bosio pitched a no hitter one over the minimum two have there ever been any other no hitters in mariner history john franjione department of chemical engineering university of colorado boulder franjion spot colorado edu
rec.sport.baseball	re juggling dodgers in article r coinnhg gap caltech edu jeff smoggy gg caltech edu jeff goldsmith writes in mssc qh y l p netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes if this is true note that i don t think it is lasorda should be fired for at least two reasons publicly humiliating his players knuckling under to his players wishes i did not write that in fact those statements were a rebuttal to an earlier posting that i made and this was culled from my strong rebuttal to those statements please slander shame there is a fine line between getting players input and knuckling under to players demands a manager much like a military officer needs to have his her players complete obedience and respect during a game after the game it s no big deal but when there is no time to do more than react players must trust the manager or the team often falls apart see boston red sox ff after the game it s no big deal after the employees leave the workplace it doesn t matter what they say about the boss or the company puhlease strawberry s demeanor as represented by the media often sounds like demands i suspect that a comment like i enjoy hitting fourth i m used to it would get pretty brutally misinterpreted by the media if it came from strawberry russ porter quoted strawberry as saying i feel more comfortable hitting cleanup and i think i perform best in that role paraphrased by my memory and bias that seems like a fairly non petulant answer to what was almost certainly a question like how do you feel about being moved to the third spot in the order first it s ross porter second i am really tired of seeing the kind of response that indicates that all i do is parrot what some media person says or writes i have a brain if i choose to characterize something in a certain fashion it s because that is what i believe to be accurate it is not just because some unnamed mediot made the characterization a more media sensitive player might answer the manager knows what he is doing if he thinks that batting me third will help the team then i am all for it we d ignore that answer as brown stuff so it seems a little bit of an overreaction to brand darryl s response as petulant i did not brand darryl s response as petulant because i never heard any response from darryl i did call him a name i referred to him as a primadonna someone else concluded that i did that because i hate him i don t hate him i think he s a primadonna if you disagree fine but stop putting words in my mouth the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	re strike zone width was re jose canseco s in article bd atlas nafb trw com mspede atlas nafb trw com writes well it s just studying tape frame by frame that s all the biggest thing that you notice however is how bastardized the strike zone has become death to the umpires union the plate is across not call the high strikes strikes and quit calling pitches outside strikes they re balls speaking of this wide strike zone i d sure like to see cameras placed in each major league park such that an overview shot of home plate is available cbs had this during the ws or did i just dream it then again players managers must not be too upset with the current wide strike zone mark pede wait a minute if i read the rules right a stike is any portion of the ball over any portion of the plate given that the ball is in diameter this sez that the zone width is or while this is still less than the number given i can forgive any ump for misjudging on an object moving at to miles per hour many times not in a straight line i think the umpires union has a great grasp of the rules david edwards
rec.sport.baseball	re bases loaded walk gives reds win in in article mssc y u dn netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes in article c xwai nu news cso uiuc edu hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu harold brooks writes in article mssc xb i cg netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes actually i think the large scale sample size is part of the problem it seems to me that if we were to plot all the players in baseball in regard to ba vs clutch ba deviation we would get some kind of bell curve the x axis being the deviation in clutch hitting vs non clutch the y axis being the number of players certainly there would be some players on the extreme ends of the bell my supposition is that if we were to find the same players consistently year after year at one end of the bell or the other then we might be able to make some reasonable conclusions about those players as opposed to all baseball players let s be careful here if players performance was completely random in clutch no clutch then you would still expect some players to be good in the clutch every year and some to be not so good every year with two years worth of data you d have of the players good each year bad each year and would have one good and one bad year we have players for years just flipping a coin you d expect players to be good all years and to be bad every year this is what we actually get no of good years clutch performers coin flip random essentially the distribution of clutch performers by number of years of good performance is the same as what you would get if the process leading to deviations from non clutch performance was completely random if there was anything to clutch hitting at least in this definition that had any predictive capability you expect to see the number of players at the ends to be much larger than that predicted by flipping a coin further if you limit yourself to players who were a lot above or below average in clutch situations say standard deviation from the mean more than one year the random explanation still looks good in the four years that i looked at the data from elias there were players with a minimum of at bats in clutch situations that were sigma from the mean two different years of those players of them changed sign between the two years in other words they were great clutch hitters one year and really horrible the other year if it was just a random process you d expect those numbers to be everything that s been measured about clutch hitting over a period of years that could be used to predict any ability with any proposed definition has looked like a random process with the caveat that there may be something related to platoon advantage that could be dragged out of the data e g john lowenstein probably never had a clutch ab against a left handed pitcher but he might well have had some in blowouts so that there would be a bias since his clutch abs would be more geared to his platoon advantage this is not a subject that has been glanced at casually a lot of people have put a lot of effort into studying it and every one of them with the exception of the elias study has been unable to find anything that would allow you to predict how someone will do in clutch situations better than flipping a coin self serving plug follows some of the flaws in the elias study are discussed in my paper in the forth coming sabr book the perfect game by taylor publishing the authors are supposed to get a slice of the advance so go bug your local bookstores now and maybe i can get enough to take my wife to dinner once harold harold brooks hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu national severe storms laboratory norman ok i used to work for a brewery too but i didn t drink on the job p bavasi on dal maxvill s view that florida can win the nl east in
rec.sport.baseball	re camden yards in article apr uvm edu luh med uvm edu eddy luh writes anyone know how i can get some tickets to see the birds at camden yards more specifically anyone have confidence in any particular ticket agencies in the new england new york area that will be fair about prices tickets are very hard to get even at the box office at camden yards if you really want to see a game here i go to school in baltimore price should not be an issue tickets go up to but you should be willing to go as high as if you really want to come men go crazy in andrew kamholz something in me dark and sticky congregations but all the time it s getting strong they only get better sting no way of dealing with this feeling one by one peter gabriel can t go on like this too long
rec.sport.baseball	re why is barry bonds not batting th timothy cree timothy lamar colostate edu wrote in article apr hpcvaac cv hp com paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen writes in article apr leland stanford edu punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi writes having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches to hit this is important since he struggles so much with breaking balls opposing pitchers don t want to walk williams to get to bonds i have to wonder if this good hitter behind you argument is really valid has anyone done a study on this you want a study look at matt williams the year after mitchell was gone look no further not a scientific study but it ll show the truth for matt besides bonds wants to bat th i had thought that williams batted after mitchell wouldn t that show that williams does better at th rather than th the point is moot though becase clark pretty much demands to be rd and like you point out bonds does like to bat th the only person left to bat th is williams mike west west esd dl nec com
rec.sport.baseball	re how does a pitcher get a save in article apr newshub ariel yorku ca cs ariel yorku ca geoffrey e dias writes the subject line says it all what is the rule that qualifies a pitcher as making a save imho this is the most untrustworthy silly stat by today s rules in all of baseball my understanding is to qualify as a save a pitcher cannot pitch more than three innings and the potential tying run must at least appear in the on deck circle also the lead a pitcher enters with cannot excede three runs i believe that the official scorers must assert more of their authority in determining winners savers etc for instance a pitcher can come in in the ninth with a lead blow the lead fall behind have his team come back in the next half inning and earn the win has this pitcher earned a win no way i guy could pitch five strong innings of middle relief and see his teammates rally to tie the score assume he came in to start the fourth and left after the eighth his teammate holds the opposition scoreless in the ninth and they score a run in the bottom of the ninth to win the third pitcher earns the win and the middle reliever gets no stat satisfaction mike i bleed the blue of dodgers and even like lasorda spaghetti sauce
rec.sport.baseball	re white and black racism was about the phillies in article apr princeton edu niepornt phoenix princeton edu david marc nieporent writes in article p psilink com dennis g parslow p psilink com writes to beat a dead horse i seem to remember a fair amount of sympathy for some black fringe player named roberto clemente and for roy campanella and for thurman munson and for just about anyone else who we may not even have liked as players but mourned for dying too young wiggins alan i believe he was well out of baseball by the time he died but that s besides the point i m sure people would feel slightly sympathetic for rickey if he were killed but they would also be criticizing him a lot more for his actions example how about jose canseco he gets a couple of speeding tickets and all of the sudden his attitude is awful what the hell do speeding tickets have to do with clubhouse influence anyway so why do sportswriters talk about it all the time uh he also has been charged with chasing his wife in a car and smashing it into a tree as well as carrying a loaded firearm in his car and the speeding reported was over mph reckless driving or brian hunter and keith mitchell both of whom had dwi problems towards the end of last year two years ago it was cited as a sign of their immaturity etc actually i hadn t heard about this thanks meanwhile dykstra almost killed both himself and daulton and i didn t read any sportswriter complaining about that they may have talked about how bad it was for the phillies but i never read anywhere criticism of dykstra s character or daulton s intelligence for that matter based on this incident i don t know what you were reading or watching but i sure saw a lot about that and about dykstra s poker games most of the writing was along the lines of how incredibly stupid and selfish it was and how he d hurt the team by wracking himself and the catcher up etc espn raised questions about his judgement etc the print media here in the sf area questioned why disciplinary action wouldn t be taken against dykstra and one article pointed out that if lenny wanted to kill himself there were ways that wouldn t endanger other people s lives then there was dykstra himself being quoted on how stupid it was etc mike disclaimer these opiini h h damn h h q w q wq wq d x exit x q c quitbye ctrlaltdel q q logout save quit quit zz zzzzzz vi man vi l c e x i t help helpquit d d man help c c e help exit quit q ctrlshftdel hey what does stop l a d
rec.sport.baseball	re bosio no hits red soxs swhitfield gallua gallaudet edu writes chris bosio a seattle m s pitcher just no hit the red sox this is the second no hitter in seattle history randy johnson got the first also this was bosio s first career no hitter this is mlb first no hitter this year go m s trivia time ok we all know that dave my batting average is down in the valle caught chris bosio s no hitter last night and is batting over btw here is the question who caught randy johnson s no hitter in june of hint not dave valle the mad kobold is douglas todd norris n henson cc wwu edu depeche mode u they might be giants inxs o m d a ha the police exercise your basic rights we could build a building site from the bricks of shame is built the hope depeche mode if you want van canucks sea supersonics sea mariners sea seahawks st rnd nd th th congratulations to chris bosio mariners on his no hitter of boston
rec.sport.baseball	re bonilla in article apr princeton edu roger astro princeton edu roger lustig writes when i say black i mean us born black people for the purposes of this discussion hispanic players were in baseball before and one team in the s signed lots of hispanics because they went over better with the local audience than blacks did what about black hispanics and why would more hispanics stick around than blacks don t know but remember this is the country that had special racial laws for one group and one group only blacks our national history man you had better do some serious reading i really really doubt that you meant to say this mike disclaimer these opiini h h damn h h q w q wq wq d x exit x q c quitbye ctrlaltdel q q logout save quit quit zz zzzzzz vi man vi l c e x i t help helpquit d d man help c c e help exit quit q ctrlshftdel hey what does stop l a d
rec.sport.baseball	info on j t snow i m sure all of you have heard of the extraordiary start by rookie j t snow of the california angeles other than the fact that his father was a star receiver with the l a rams and is now a radio personality in los angeles and j t came from the yankees organization i don t know much about j t if anyone has info and background on the young fenom please post by the way for those of you not following his exploits he has hit four home runs in three days two last night he has also delivered the winning hit a couple of times for the angeles in this young season thanks michael from usc
rec.sport.baseball	re how to speed up games marginally realistic in article he p zola esd sgi com archer elysium esd sgi com archer bad cop surly writes in m nll s ahc udcps cps udayton edu mbohler udcps cps udayton edu michael bohler writes to really speed up the game umps need to start calling strikes the way they used to i m talking about making the strike zone start at the knees and go up to the top of the letters forget this the strike zone is in the general area of the groin a lot less and counts and a quicker game they tried that in the s and people stopped coming to the ballparks in droves as offense suffered immensely they lowered the mound first before the season the shrinkage of the strike zone didn t start until the mid s scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let s go mets
rec.sport.baseball	re winfield s spot on the all time greats team in article c wewd kto murdoch acc virginia edu drw l delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker writes thanks for the numbers they portray a true image in many ways i accept them the first ones and the second is winfield ba really only around
rec.sport.baseball	re re re all time best players in article apr tesla njit edu drm tesla njit edu writes overall career don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly wanna go to a game sometime jesus christ boy have you not heard of the real all time best steve balboni now that s yankee pride
rec.sport.baseball	re the all time greats team in article apr iscsvax uni edu reed iscsvax uni edu writes in article apr alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes in article apr iscsvax uni edu reed iscsvax uni edu writes uhhhhh winfield has a carrer slugging average of career peak no during winfield s peak his slugging average was an average of points above the league average mel ott s is hank aaron s is and frank robinson s is in their worst years of their peak they are still better than winfield in his best peak year winfield s best is above the average ott s worst is above the average and robinson s worst is above the league average career no slugging big deal many right fielders including darryl strawberry and andre dawson can easliy surpass this for a career slugging average so unless there are some real stats that make winfield worthy of the team he won t even be allowed to be water boy p s eddie gaedel is the water boy and his career on base percentage is tons better than winfield s check your facts andre dawson s career slugging pct is in the s so is winny s i would like to see your facts winny has probably done better than points above with a carrer slg of check on more important stats defense and heart batting average rbi s peak and career especially career winny ranks in the top outfielders of all time you are using bs to make your standings and i would like to know where you are getting your numbers from
rec.sport.baseball	re all time peak players in article apr princeton edu roger crux princeton edu roger lustig writes in article apr alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes in article r dln oqm transfer stratus com jmann vineland pubs stratus com jim mann writes in article apr alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes very interesting gehrig below bonds and schmidt ricky henderson he could steal bases but his hitting stats are not even close to dimmagio s uhhhh where is winfield henderson s stat s are probably closer to dimaggio s than you think then give me numbers man winfield could whip henderson s butt at what basestealing not henderson s all time leader and is good for about runs worth of sb lifetime winfield is about sb behind and has a net runs on base average winfield s best year was nine points below henderson s lifetime oba lifetime the diff is points slugging winfield by points they re both good ofs though winfield looks better with his huge bod winfield s best year henderson tb iii gives henderson a total player rating of winfield of they have rickey as a much better fielder which i don t buy but henderson is simply the best leadoff hitter of all time and winfield isn t the best anything of all time henderson is the best leadoff hitter of all time arguably winfield has meant more to his team than henderson unlike daryll henderson tries hard he is an amazing centerfielder rickey is very good maybe better than winfield i was angry at the dissing of winfield though winfield has been better than henderson lately check the numbers winfield may surprise you he will have basehits and should have homeruns when he retires wishful thiniking if he plays to
rec.sport.baseball	re best first basemen in article apr ns cc lehigh edu ch ns cc lehigh edu chris hartzell writes in article apr tesla njit edu drm tesla njit edu writes don mattingly is the best first baseman in the history of baseball always has been always will be don is good but so was keith hernandez i just heard don talk about how he learned how to be a good fielder by talking and watching keith play jt snow
rec.sport.baseball	re all time peak players in article c w le jpk ucdavis edu ez dale ucdavis edu gary built like villanueva huckabay writes michael lurie the liberalizer writes henderson s stat s are probably closer to dimaggio s than you think then give me numbers man winfield could whip henderson s butt well you re absolutely completely dead wrong but thanks for playing as soon as i get to my office i ll be happy to post rickey and dave s career lines both are very fine players but henderson has consistently been better as for rickey slacking due to his contract problems this year any comments considering he s basically picked up the entire team and put them on his back i think he deserves a little slack and i think he deserves a year extension at m per year quickly i was upset at people dissing winfield henderson is the better player winfield can come close though lets see what rickey does for the rest of his career people forget how good winny was in the s and also how great rickey was
rec.sport.baseball	re sbs hrs in article c ws k hqc odin corp sgi com dans fore csd sgi com dan steinman writes last night on the giants mets radio broadcast hank and ted were discussing the fact that there were only players who had ever hit homeruns and stolen bases in their career while hojo was batting anyone have a list not as easy as it sounds to come up with all of them i couldn t mays mantle aaron henderson morgan bonds dad frank robinson molitor yount guessing now i d be interested to see the whole list thanks dan ya think winfield is on it
rec.sport.baseball	triva question on bosio s no hitter i don t actually have the answer to this one bosio after walking the first two batters retired straight for a back end perfect game how many other games including extra inning games have seen a pitcher retire straight excluding official perfect games the only other instance of this i know about for sure is the famous ernie shore game which counts as a perfect one according to those goons in cooperstown shore came into the game when boston pitcher babe ruth got thrown out for arguing over the first batter walk shore picked him off and retired straight after that matt wall wall cc swarthmore edu hey i gotta job here ok april boston red sox seize first place
rec.sport.baseball	mattingly just to add to this vein consider that range of a first baseman is not the only important thing he is imo the best fielder of bad throws from the other infielders i have seen him scoop balls out of the dirt catch balls off a large bounce take down balls over his head wide etc ad infinitum and he gets the out much of the time some of the things he does to save his infielders of errors are amazing you have to give mattingly credit for being able to do all of that while keeping his foot near the bag yes i am sure he gets a few calls because he is mattingly keith keller let s go rangers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs in this corner let s go quakers weighing in at almost every weight imaginable life and all that surrounds it blues traveler
rec.sport.baseball	re bob vesterman s plan to generate fan interest in article rd interlan com tonyf rm interlan com tony fernandez writes the marlins tried something like this and was a complete failure on opening day instead of having a th inning stretch with the singing of take me out to the ballgame they had some young women on the field lead the crowd into doing aerobics while the pa was playing gloria estefan s get on your feet the fans actually booed and started singing take me out on their own i actually kind of felt sorry for the girls are you kidding i m stuck with the toronto skydome where their idea of a th inning stretch is that blue jays song where everyone gets to yell okay okay blue jays blue jays let s play ball wow what genius did it take to compose that one to outshine the old classic and there are women on the field to lead the crowd then again this is the same crowd who is more entertained by the grounds crew and the word ground is used loosely than it is by the outstanding plays by the opponents fielders
rec.sport.baseball	re yakult swallows japanese pro baseball team anyone have any idea how to get japanese league stats regularly in the us matt wall cc swarthmore edu in article f v moqf lab ntt jp yajima nttcom ntt jp yajima hiroshi wrote tuesday s game of beloved yakult swallows at jingu hanshin tigers beloved yakult x w ito l nakagomi hr yakult arai st central league standing w l t pct gb hiroshima carp chunichi dragons hanshin tigers hated giants beloved swallows yokohama baystars hiroshi yajima e mail yajima nttcom ntt jp ntt network information systems laboratories midori cho chome musashino shi tokyo japan tel fax matt wall wall cc swarthmore edu hey i gotta job here ok april boston red sox seize first place
rec.sport.baseball	rules on line well i m finally about to key in the official rules for the archives but before i do i will ask again does anybody have the official mlb rules in electronic format just trying to save myself a ton of work no they don t scan well because of the ridiculous format they re printed in thanks matt matt wall wall cc swarthmore edu hey i gotta job here ok april boston red sox seize first place
rec.sport.baseball	re indians pitching in article apr ariel lerc nasa gov ecaxron ariel lerc nasa gov ron graham wrote in article apr bme ri ccf org tknuth bio ri ccf org writes wow the tribe gave up more runs last night their era is and opponents are hitting against them the front office is excited about calling matt young up next week to join the rotation well excited doesn t exactly mean happy in this case it means our contract says we have to bring him up by or release him and we need to find somebody someplace to do something until some of the injured pitchers recover and some of the young pitchers get ready so we best get a move on ok so it s not the primary definition so sue me rg lakewood pain allpaper all lerc statistical baseball league lakewood pain allpaper tomorrow s heroes league i m a little worried about this pitching thing is scarry even for the first games of the season mesa sp seems to be settling down he pitched well against the red soxs but the rocket matched him i got a chance to watch them play against california wednesday and he pitched well also then the dam broke wickander came in and promptly it was run homer by snow i heard the guys on espn say that of the tribe s top prospects are pitchers anyone out there like to post who these guys are and where they are the tribe is on espn again tonight against oakland john r cogar always expect the worst cogar g mac nswc navy mil join the cleveland sports fan society
rec.sport.baseball	re why is barry bonds not batting th in article r di car apple com chuq apple com chuq von rospach writes punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi writes some evidence that is not working take a look at the standings it s real easy to get so focussed on minutinae and forget that the giants happen to be in first place if it s working you don t screw it up by changing things just because you think it ought to be different so that is the reason why the toronto blue jays should keep alfredo griffin just because it worked a team winning doesn t mean that everything that it s doing is right a team not winning doesn t mean that everything that it s doing is wrong or otherwise to borrow the sharks situation you would say that george kingston should be fired some folks like to argue about theoretical details i prefer to watch teams win when the giants slip to third then we can talk about how to re arrange the batting order until then i think it s stupid to focus on what s wrong for the simple fact that it s working as it is by then it s too late the problem with not fixing something while it s working is that by then there may not be anything left to fix mostly though the giants are winning and frankly as long as that continues it s rather silly to second guess their strategy but evidently some folks would rather be right than be first so the blue jays were simply perfect last year there was nothing that they could have done to have improved that team not go california angels nelson lu claudius leland stanford edu
rec.sport.baseball	re john franco jason lee asks what s with john franco the mets are hardly using him i heard he was completely recovered but now i m not so sure you must have heard wrong his arm is still sore he hasn t gone on the dl but he may managmenet is treating him as a day to day situation his doctors thought that he was ready and they had him throw in colorado but his arm wasn t up to the strain he is throwing every day but he s just not quite ready to pitch full strength yet this is based on an interview that he gave on wfan ny radio on thursday jon lyons jon k lyons att com at t bell laboratories att jon k lyons
rec.sport.baseball	re hbp bb big cat the original poster wanted to know how the big cat looked i was also at the saturday game in montreal apr that rockies won i haven t paid much attention to gallarraga since he left the expos but his stance seemed to be much different he stands more erect and very open with his left foot pointing to rd base i m wondering if this is a recent change in stance for him andres had one glaring weakness as a hitter he could always be fooled by a curve ball low and away if this is indeed a new stance for him maybe he is not being fooled as easily as for his patience dennis martinez definitely did not have his good stuff if he was grooving pitches to andres you can hardly fault him for drilling them which he did does andres generally start hot or cold does it take until may for most pitchers to have confidence in that curve ball low and away roger healey
rec.sport.baseball	cards mailing list update just wanted to let all the people who e mailed me about a possible cardinals mailing list that i wasn t able to get the ok to host the list here so someone else will have to do it many thanks to bob netherton for his helpful info dick detweiler
rec.sport.baseball	re bases loaded walk gives reds win in in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article mssc y d netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes quoted for future reference shown to be consistent in the past overall performance l r splits even matching hitting pitching styles all of these will give me some advantage if used properly was predicting the future the next ab he was predicting that sabo was more likely to get a hit than samuel he believed one of two things sabo was more likely than samuel to get a hit or that more good would be done in the long run by leaving sabo in regardless of the expectation of the actual outcome in fact you don t know what perez had in mind when he left sabo in by supporting the swap you are predicting the opposite in fact i don t think anyone is claiming that they can predict the future or any particular future event but we can believe that certain trends are due to a cause whether or not we have identified the cause and therefore will continue and i am not dismissing your work i m stating my opinion you are saying that your work renders any opinion to the contrary invalid so that the retention of that opinion is some kind of insult to your work well yes you are aware of its existance you claim to be incapable of understanding it though i suspect you are simply unwilling yet you rather forcefully state the opposite you don t seem to think the work is worth reading yet you obviously feel the topic is important i d say this is insulting i think seeing insults in other people s opinions is kind of silly after all mark didn t call you a total idiot or call your work stupid he simply stated that it didn t change his opinion on the subject i did not say that it is a consistent skill i have said that it is an indicator of performance under a certain set of circumstances right this is the beef it has not proven to be an indicator of future performance under any circumstances at least none that we ve been able to come up with if you know of some where it is an indicator of future performance please let us in on your secret if player a hits better on tuesdays and always has and mark believes that it might be an indication that he will hit on tuesday better next season as well would you respond the same way at some point you might admit that all variable might not be known to you who knows what this guy does every monday night maybe he sees his sports shrink on tuesday mornings or has his vitamin b shots monday nights but this is something that s true of one guy only it doesn t mean that there will be a meaningful correlation for the entire league by days of the week nor that there should be but it doesn t mean we can t make predictions based on that for that particular player i believe that by season s end that chris sabo s batting average in clutch situations will be significantly lower than his batting average in non clutch situations i can t prove that it will happen so i guess we ll just have to wait and see is this simply a prediction for chris sabo for this year or is this a prediction for all batters who have over the past few years hit xxx amount worse in the clutch than overall i only see a prediction for one player here i don t see anything about all batters here s another one for you in joe carter s batting average in clutch situations was significantly below his batting average in non clutch situations each year i presume you think this is random i m not going to get into case analysis sure you can find somebody who hit poorly from and then hit poorly in as well you can also find those who hit poorly from and then hit well in that s exactly what mark is trying to do though find hitters that have these correlation and ask whether we can make predictions for these hitters based on their past performance major league ballplayers it just makes me think that in joe carter s batting average in the clutch is not going to be as high as his ba in non clutch situations gambler s fallacy unless there is reason to expect consistency a huh what does gambler s fallacy have to do with anything whether you can know the reason for correlation or not you can t deny that it has existent you can only make an argument that you don t think it is likely to continue to exist because you can t see a reason for it to exist run proves nothing can you give us a reason to expect clutch ba to correlate from one year to the next i ve seen a detailed study of someone posted recently on why negative clutch would correlate the argument along the lines of star player with l r splits will always see an adverse condition in late innings of a close game i e opposing manager will always bring in a ah pitcher to face him where his manager will not pull him for a ph i don t see how you can deny it as for total idiot yes if you prove yourself unwilling to even consider evidence that might suggest that you are wrong i would say the term fits nicely so tell me does the term fit or do you have an open mind what about you if the shoe fits will you wear it with an open mind rudy
rec.sport.baseball	re twins update paul csd csd uwm edu paul r krueger writes in article apr sctc com macomber sctc com chuck macomber writes wednesday s game marked the first opposing left handed starting pitcher for the twins this year rickey bones nice post chuck but you made just one mistake bones is a right handed pitcher however hrbek s grand slam came off graehme lloyd a lefty salty my mistake chuck
rec.sport.baseball	re winfield s spot on the all time greats team in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david m tate writes in article c wewd kto murdoch acc virginia edu drw l delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker writes in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david m tate writes ielding rf of all time as far as anyone can tell i did a quick scan last night looking for players with a peak comparable to or better than winfield in my quick n dirty subjective judgement you could make good cases for ruth aaron ott robinson clemente kaline maris klein jackson waner and probably a few others this is not a knock on winfield but a comment on his consistency all of those other players had awesome stretches and very good stretches while winfield has been more uniformly excellent hall of fame absolutely top peak i m not so sure top total career value yes almost certainly point taken when was winfield s peak years anyway probably around
rec.sport.baseball	winfield has re sbs hrs in article mjones fenway mjones fenway aix kingston ibm com mike jones writes dans fore csd sgi com dan steinman writes last night on the giants mets radio broadcast hank and ted were discussing the fact that there were only players who had ever hit homeruns and stolen bases in their career while hojo was batting anyone have a list not as easy as it sounds to come up with all of them i couldn t mays mantle aaron henderson morgan bonds dad frank robinson molitor yount guessing now i d be interested to see the whole list first please watch your line lengths not everyone has autowrap second franklin to the rescue here s the list player hr sb aaron mays frobinson rjackson winfield dawson baylor bobonds wynn strawberry morgan pinson yount kgibson sandberg players marked with an are still active numbers through that s only the th is probably rickey henderson who was listed at hr sb or george brett listed as sb hr the surprises probably reggie bayor and wynn for steals maybe morgan to a lot of people for homers i was kind of surprised to realize that sandberg has that many steals though i wasn t surprised that the number was mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com dreams are real while they last can we say more of life havelock ellis
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris franjion spot colorado edu john franjione writes valentine no i m not going to be cordial roger maynard is a complete and total dickhead send me e mail if you insist on details in fact he s a complete and total dickhead on at least newsgroups this one and rec sport hockey since hockey season is almost over he s back to being a dickhead in r s bb i was in fact going to suggest that roger take his way of discussion over to r s football pro there this kind of hormone only reasoning is the standard being he canadian and hockey what it is i would have suggested that r s h would work too it is important in a thread that everyone involved use the same body part to produce a post brain being the organ of choice here g bonvicini bonvicin cernvm cern ch
rec.sport.baseball	re babe s pitching babe ruth s lifetime pitching stats selected era g cg sho rat best year bos era led league or bos era steve thornton stevet eskimo com
rec.sport.baseball	re relative value of players kime apr mongoose torolab ibm com mjones fenway organization eskimo north eskimo com yeah morris just knows how to win that s why he lost for detroit in funny how he wins a lot of games when he pitches on good teams but loses a lot when he pitches on bad ones and if rings was the only criteria for success then teams would always tend to repeat and eventually you d have the same team win the ws every bleepin year sort of like the yanks in the s morris is a decent pitcher on the downside of a good not great career toronto will finish rd or th this year with morris and all those rings because their pitching staff was destroyed over the off season steve thornton stevet eskimo com
rec.sport.baseball	re all time peak players in article apr alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes very interesting gehrig below bonds and schmidt ricky henderson he could steal bases but his hitting stats are not even close to dimmagio s uhhhh where is winfield henderson s stat s are probably closer to dimaggio s than you think jim mann stratus computer jmann vineland pubs stratus com
rec.sport.baseball	re box score abbrev woes in article apr scott skidmore edu jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff writes can anybody figure out why some box score abbreviations make absolutely no sense at least in the local gannett rag that finds its way to my door i must have stared at cleman in the mets box for a good seconds this morning wondering who the hell it was wouldn t it make more sense to use colemn i ve seen it as colmn also blame the associated press after the official scorer balances the official score card they copy it and give it to several diffent people one of those is a person from ap whose job it is to type it up using a template on a laptop and transmit it to the ap offices in new york rockefeller center via the telephone the box scores are not checked and just rebroadcasted over ap s news delivery services if there are corrections those are issued later it is the person sitting in front of a laptop at shea or whereever whose fault that is note the ap puts out boxscores in three different formats with the one you see in most newspapers being the first one last week they were in denver maybe the ap person in denver did this remember they just started with mlb out there check tomorrow s paper and see if the person who is doing it from shea does the same thing scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let s go mets
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article apr blurt oswego edu ma ind blurt oswego edu writes i believe that rusty staub was also a jewish ball player rust staub is not jewish in fact i think his father was a minister scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let s go mets
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article apr princeton edu roger astro princeton edu roger lustig writes in article psm b w w jwt oau org bbs comarow jwt oau org writes dave kingman is jewish sez who sez dave kingman when he used to take off for rosh hashanna and yom kippur on days they coincided with the season scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let s go mets
rec.sport.baseball	re new home for the bosox in article apr scott skidmore edu jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff writes while we re on the multipurpose subject let s not forget shea which was designed to accommodate both the mets jets it was the first stadium i think to have the box seats on rollers so they could be oriented at right angles for baseball in parallel for football minor point shea stadium was designed as a multi purpose stadium but not with the jets in mind as the tennant the new york football giants had moved to yankee stadium from the polo grounds in and was having problem with stadium management the city did not own yankee stadium until the idea was to get the giants to move into shea when a deal was worked out between the giants and the yankees the new afl franchise the new york titans approached the city about using the new stadium the titans were playing in downing stadium where the cosmos played soccer in the s because shea stadium was tied into the world s fair anyway the city thought it would be a novel idea to promote the new franchise and the world s fair like they were doing with the mets so the deal was worked out of course with the jets gone to jersey and a truly good football stadium the mets are saddled with a multipurpose stadium where because it s circular the seats are almost always too far from the action the mets announcers kiner murphy in particular have always hyped it as beautiful shea stadium a tipoff to how unbeautiful it truly is i m under the impression that when murph says it he means it as a regular goer to shea it is not a bad place since they ve cleaned and renovated the place remember this is its th year scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let s go mets
rec.sport.baseball	re darrrrrrrrryl in article mssc kcru ip netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes that exuberance disappeared immediately however when strawberry went into a tirade at the man all reports indicate he used a lot of profanity and accused the man of interference and therefore of costing the dodgers a game shortly afterwards other fans hurled food and beverages toward the man who made the catch dodger stadium officials started to remove him from the park but then relented and just relocated him to another area in an interview after the game lasorda blamed the fan for the loss strawberry also went into a tirade about how the fans are stupid and they don t care about winning l a times columnists similarly blasted the man who made the catch sounds like darryl being darryl tommy spending too much time on slim fast and needs a pasta fix and the media being their usual charming selves sounds like a new york like story to me i saw the replay and am wondering what the big deal is i didn t realize the folks in la were making a big to do about it i think stawberry lasorda and the various media types should sit and watch the replay then apologize to the fan others have questioned why darryl should be so concerned with what the fan did when he has a grand total of rbi through the first nine games darryl has not gotten off to a good start he has to blame someone but i guess the big debate continues as to what are the responsibilities of the fan as long as the fan doesn t interfere with the play i see no problems scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let s go mets
rec.sport.baseball	tigers win pitching duel yes it s true on a cold damp night last night at tiger stadium dave wells david haas bob macdonald and mike henneman combined for a victory over the texas rangers here are the highlights r h e texas detroit wells gets the win he s now with an era just under and henneman gets his third save in three chances ken rogers started for the rangers and gets the loss he was relieved by burns in the th the rangers got their only run on a solo home run by dean palmer in the th the tigers opened the scoring with an rbi single by fryman in the rd then took the lead for good in the bottom of the seventh when whitaker greeted reliever burns with an rbi double which scored tettleton whitaker in turn crossed the plate on an rbi single by phillips who has been red hot for the third tiger run this afternoon it s another battle of southpaws bill krueger for the tigers vs craig lefferts for the rangers randy p s toronto blue jay fans thanks for wells and macdonald those guys have really been a big help to the tigers pitching staff
rec.sport.baseball	re geronimo pena in article r avinnb q cronkite central sun com bobn hawkwind central sun com bob netherton writes in article apr eagle wesleyan edu dhart eagle wesleyan edu writes hey i ve noticed that luis alicea is starting at nd for the cardinals instead of geronimo pena is pena hurt or was he just benched for poor performance anyone know after a quick start pena has been stuck in a rut torre gave alicea the start to try to get pena out of whatever funk he is in it has worked in the past and it has worked again pena went for last night against colorado dave spencer mead data central miamisburg ohio ggggg oooo g o o daves meaddata com g gg o o ggggg oooo a a ttt rrr iii bbb eee o t r r i b b e t rrr i bbb eee t rr i b b e t r r iii bbb eee
rec.sport.baseball	re how to speed up games marginally realistic in article pn ll mit edu ejb ll mit edu ed baranoski writes in article apr vfl paramax com davidm gvls vfl paramax com david madden writes another pair of suggestions remove the balk rule it is the runners responsibility to stay safe no matter what the pitcher does quite honestly this one is ridiculous consider the following scenario runner on third as the pitcher starts to throw home the runner takes off for home and the batter squares around to bunt for the suicide squeeze the pitcher seeing this does not throw home but stops in mid action and puts the runner in a run down it is the balk rule that prevents this from happening believe it or not this actually happened to me once in an oba ontario baseball association game in milton ontario i was the batter and to my amazement the umpire missed it in the years that i played ball this was worst piece of umpiring i ever saw pablo iglesias pi ruth ece jhu edu
rec.sport.baseball	bosox win again against seattle last night boston red sox win its games of games by beating seattle roger clemson pitch not so dominate he walked at least man in first inns but valetin and greenwell hit homeruns and red sox prevail i think that game is must win for red sox in seattle considering darwin will faced seattle ace randy johnson tonight
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in article apr newshub ariel yorku ca cs ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes where did acker get a ring from i would have to say that they are about even i believe acker got a ring from his wife when they were married the blue jays had such a strong offense don t tell me that morris has this magical ability to cause the offensive players to score more runs i don t know why you guys keep bickering about morris the stats show he is a mediocre pitcher at best this year is another case he just happened to win games i saw many of his games last year he did pitch some good games but this crap about being a clutch pitcher is nonsense he was constantly giving up go ahead runs in the th innings the clutch innings and the jays would somehow scrape a win for him another major factor in his wins is that cito i dont realize i have a bullpen gaston would leave morris in for ever therefore giving him many more chances to win games i believe this is the major reason he won games last year barry walker bnr ottawa canada my opinions
rec.sport.baseball	rusty s religion as i recall from kieth hernandez auto biography rusty is a devout roman catholic kieth and rusty would carpool to shea everyday but sunday when rusty would go to mass sc
rec.sport.baseball	re best homeruns the best one i saw last year was willie mcgee off matthews i think in phillie a fierce line drive that was still rising when it hit the second deck facade at the vet willie mcgee had one homerun last year eric
rec.sport.baseball	re baseball in spanish in article bu edu icop csa bu edu antonio pera writes recently i heard the red sox on wrol a spanish speaking radio station i thought it was so unreal the red sox in spanish anyway i want to find out how widespread this is being a ny native i know the scmets are on in spanish but not the yankmes i wuold think that la sd texas and fla are on in spanish are there any spanish speaking networks or is this a local the braves day games are broadcast is spanish on a station called la favorita the station has a daytime liscence only minardi michael j georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism mm internet mm prism gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	re bosox win again against seattle in article jxu black clarku edu jxu black clarku edu dark wing duck writes last night boston red sox win its games of games by beating seattle roger clemson pitch not so dominate he walked at least man in first inns be fair he did walk batters in ip he also allowed only three hits none for extra bases only one run a pretty good outing all told i think that game is must win for red sox in seattle considering darwin will faced seattle ace randy johnson tonight there is no such thing as a must win game this early in the season and we can always hope that darwin pitches well cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	todd worrell update according to an article in the la times todd worrell will not be ready to come off the dl list friday it sounds like he has had another set back in his come back at present he has stopped throwing the ball supposedly he had no velocity it doesn t sound like there is any particular time table at this point for when he will be back dodger
rec.sport.baseball	re hbp bb big cat stevet eskimo com steven thornton writes the official mlb formula for obp is hits plus walks plus hit by pitch divided by at bats plus walks plus hit by pitch plus sacrifice flies sac bunts and errors have no effect source total baseball and they sure they might if an error is recorded on for example a ground ball ie the batter would otherwise be out it is officially a hitless at bat if it s some other type of error greenwell lets a single go by it doesn t effect the obp but most errors are counted cuz
rec.sport.baseball	wounded redbirds does anyone know the status of jeffries or arocha
rec.sport.baseball	what does jeff king suck t was second guessing the pirates ken ziolkowski transarc com writes i m still hoping for a season from the bucs but i really wished they would have coughed up the to keep doug around actually i was hoping for barry bonds oh well p s jeff king still sucks check this out from the latest mcweekly ba slg obp hr rbi jeff king jose lind first off jeff has had like hits in the last two games and walked yet again sorry ken but jeff king does have some power which means his slg won t be below and his walks are way up if that increase is real jeff king will be an above average nl third baseman in jose lind on the other hand still doesn t walk and clearly isn t a hitter my bet is that he won t be getting any extra bases either once everybody starts pulling the lind shift we were seeing in the nl any predictions as to when he is sent to buffalo or released outright no although since the lavalliere weirdness nothing would really surprise me jeff king is currently in the top in the league in walks something is up jking
rec.sport.baseball	re geronimo pena in article r ejr tb meaddata meaddata com daves meaddata com dave spencer writes in article r avinnb q cronkite central sun com bobn hawkwind central sun com bob netherton writes in article apr eagle wesleyan edu dhart eagle wesleyan edu writes hey i ve noticed that luis alicea is starting at nd for the cardinals instead of geronimo pena is pena hurt or was he just benched for poor performance anyone know after a quick start pena has been stuck in a rut torre gave alicea the start to try to get pena out of whatever funk he is in it has worked in the past and it has worked again pena went for last night against colorado without opening this up for a sabermetric flame war i would like to question the notion that sitting a rested player down has any real effect on his long term performance sure if a man is tired and needs real rest then taking a break might be a constructive act perhaps if a man is mentally strained then sitting him down might help to the extent that that helps him relax but i would like to suggest that in the long run players do slump and benching is probably irrelevant paul collacchi
rec.sport.baseball	re hbp bb big cat in article of rec sport baseball healey qucdn queensu ca roger healey wrote the original poster wanted to know how the big cat looked i was also at the saturday game in montreal apr that rockies won i haven t paid much attention to gallarraga since he left the expos but his stance seemed to be much different he stands more erect and very open with his left foot pointing to rd base i m wondering if this is a recent change in stance for him andres had one glaring weakness as a hitter he could always be fooled by a curve ball low and away if this is indeed a new stance for him maybe he is not being fooled as easily yes the stance is new don baylor was his batting coach at st louis last year and now as his manager is continuing to work with him maybe andres has a weak left eye and the open stance gives him a better look at the ball or maybe it is simply improving his mechanics i dunno but the change seems to have enabled him to hit the ball as well as years ago his selectivity has not changed gregg baseball ncar ucar edu cr o cr colorado rockies
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard says to say that one player is better than another is to be able to say ab solutely that player a s team would have played better with player b in their lineup sheer speculation impossible to ascertain to take this to its er logical conclusion it is impossible to ascertain whether or not i am a better hitter than roberto alomar or a better pitcher than juan guzman or a better center fielder than devon white after all if i were on the blue jays can you really prove that they wouldn t have won the world series in both and while i thank you mister maynard for your faith in my atheletic prowess i can assure you that your faith is misplaced bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	re usa mcweekly stats in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira says rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes in article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione says also i have the impression from reading this group and bill james that elias is a bunch of money grubbing jerks whose mission is to charge as much as they can for baseball statistical info and bill james is not yeah sure do you own the bill james players rating book uh bill james doesn t sell statistics he sells books with statistics but he is not in the business of providing stats like elias stats howe baseball workshop etc are greg funny it seems to me that the stats major league and minor league handbooks which are nothing but collections of statistics are authored by bill james and stats inc and howe for the minor league handbook and i am not sure how the bill james player ratings book qualifies as a book with statistics while the elias analyst is a statistics book the analyst contains more stats sure but it also contains more dialogue finally the point was not about the word statistics it was about money grubbing i don t see how anyone who has looked at the bill james player ratings book cannot consider him money grubbing bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	bob vesterman s plan to generate fan interest the owners are whining about baseball not being popular among a large enough portion of the population and have suggested various remedies such as shortening the game or trying to convince us that smoke embake emdominatebysheerintimidation is an accurate description of what is essentially a laid back game forget those lame ideas here is my new and exciting two point plan to generate interest in baseball among the masses point one sex point two violence let s face it sex and violence are the only things that sell in america here s how we can implement them in the game sex cheerleaders cheerleaders and more cheerleaders dancing on top of the dugouts bringing hot dogs to the umps during the seventh inning stretch running up and down the stands the south bend white sox actually do this violence baseball players are such utter wuss boys the pitcher beans the batter and both benches empty in what is called a bench clearing brawl everybody just stands there and looks at each other stand stand stand look look look ho hum then the bullpens come running in when they reach the fight they just stand there too anybody coming off the bench who does not throw at least one punch should be suspended and fined further the bullpens should fight it out in the outfield so as not to waste time and energy running to the infield football sex violence basketball sex violence hockey violence baseball da pastime of da nayshun yawn bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	re yankee thoughts in article apr clam com sam steamer clam com sam mandelbaum says yes everyone seems to be in agreement that the yankees are finally moving in the right direction they should finish over this year and maybe even be in the pennent race in august however i would take back a few moves the jim abbott trade bleagh this was a terrific trade snow will certainly be better than mattingly in the future but that they ll be about the same now is a defensible opinion abbott is one of the few truly great pitchers in the game today wade boggs i m not sure about this one i think that it s good in that a pre boggs kicks hayes meulens whoevers ass and that a boggs still isn t all that shabby it s bad though that the yankees expect a pre boggs and will probably get a boggs however i d still play boggs over hayes or bam bam spike owen you have my full agreement here he s not all that much better than velarde and silvestri is just about a lock to be better than him however i do enjoy the fact that spike is not a nickname not that this helps the yankees danny tartabull i strongly disagree i d much much rather have a hundred games of tartabull and sixty games of dion james than games of james bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	re best first basemen in article apr tesla njit edu drm tesla njit edu says don mattingly is the best first baseman in the history of baseball always has been always will be why bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	re how does a pitcher get a save mikef bvc edu writes in article apr newshub ariel yorku ca cs ariel yorku ca geoffrey e dias writes the subject line says it all what is the rule that qualifies a pitcher as making a save imho this is the most untrustworthy silly stat by today s rules in all of baseball my understanding is to qualify as a save a pitcher cannot pitch more than three innings and the potential tying run must at least appear in the on deck circle also the lead a pitcher enters with cannot excede three runs this is a phenomenon known around work as ready fire aim i am astounded at the number of times people post strong opinions about things they not only don t understand but publicly admit to not understanding in fact there s a plausible argument that saves are a more rational stat than wins for the record there are two ways that a reliever can get a save he must finish the game and either have entered the game with the tying run on base at bat or on deck have pitched at least three innings effectively a pitcher may not get a win and a save in the same game i believe that the official scorers must assert more of their authority in determining winners savers etc for instance a pitcher can come in in the ninth with a lead blow the lead fall behind have his team come back in the next half inning and earn the win has this pitcher earned a win no way but this is an argument that wins is a dumb stat not saves i guy could pitch five strong innings of middle relief and see his teammates rally to tie the score assume he came in to start the fourth and left after the eighth his teammate holds the opposition scoreless in the ninth and they score a run in the bottom of the ninth to win the third pitcher earns the win and the middle reliever gets no stat satisfaction this again doesn t support your claim about saves at the beginning of your post mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com conceptual integrity is the most important consideration in system design frederick p brooks jr the mythical man month
rec.sport.baseball	re how does a pitcher get a save in article apr newshub ariel yorku ca cs ariel yorku ca geoffrey e dias writes the subject line says it all what is the rule that qualifies a pitcher as making a save as far as i know a save opportunity is when it is th inning or beyond and the batter on deck can either tie or win the ball game for example if it is the bottom of the th inning and clemens is pithching the red sox are leading and clemens has just givin up a hit so there is a man on first the batter and the batter on deck could tie the game with a homer if jeff russel came in the red sox reliever and finished the game without allowing the tieing or losing run to score he would get the save and clemens would get the win thats how i beleive it works hope i could help the cowboy
rec.sport.baseball	dennis martinez what s up i know there s been a lot of talk about jack morris horrible start but what about dennis martinez last i checked he s with era is the ageless wonder finally showing his age does he usually start off the season so slowly i know he plans to start tonight i hope he comes around i would appreciate any feedback concerning outlook on rest of dennis martinez s season thanks in advance mike
rec.sport.baseball	ugliest stance was re ugliest swing in article c thz lr world std com tac world std com tackey chan writes ugliest swing i am not sure i think the ugliset stance is jolio franco of the ranger i wonder how that bat comes around in time to hit the ball it looks bad but hey it get the job done tac ugliest stance of all time has to go to oscar gamble the man would practically kneel in front of home plate in order to have a small strike zone he s just lucky that strike zone size isn t determined by how big your afro is i m outta here like vladimir alan
rec.sport.baseball	re winfield in article apr alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes do you have a better e mail address mr lurie i m afraid i can t get the short version to work in any case on winfield yes his career ba is a mere he didn t beat this until his sixth year in the majors and has only topped it once since his peak was in the early s and included some rather impressive seasons but then he s also had other scattered great performances like and definitely not a smooth career curve cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	re bosox go down in smoke seattle in article apr galileo cc rochester edu ec b uhura cc rochester edu wizard writes in jxu black clarku edu jxu black clarku edu dark wing duck writes just had to respond to the bosox boasts i e bosox win again see red sox fans can never do anything right in your mind huh if we get excited about the sox winning you tell us it is going to be over soon if we worry that it ll be over soon you say that we are not true fans i am a sox fan and i think after what ive been through being a sox fan that sox fans are true fans i am excited at what they are doing so greenwell was horrible against johnson who cares the sox are with all non darwin starts what are the mariners i think the sox have the best record in baseball still so they lost one darn johnson is a quality pitcher and not the only quality mariner pitcher i logged on expecting to see at least one congratulatory note for chris bosio s no hitter but nary a peep so i ll take this opportunity to note that the red feet are now and slinking out of town without having scored a run in the last two games or even a hit in last night s gem not that we m s fans can compare our suffering to those of the followers of new england s long running tragedy but only one winning season in history is something of a burden to bear so we ll take our joys when we can get em the mariners now have two no hit pitchers on the staff and not coincidentally those pitchers beat the red sox in back to back games jsh steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article apr asd com scott asd com scott barman writes in article apr princeton edu roger astro princeton edu roger lustig writes in article psm b w w jwt oau org bbs comarow jwt oau org writes dave kingman is jewish sez who sez dave kingman when he used to take off for rosh hashanna and yom kippur on days they coincided with the season the only problem is dave kingman was always taking off rosh hashana yom kippur easter the day elvis died the entire spring training month of ramadan purim the th of july both games that day my birthday ok during the world series he never had to play there memorial day both games that day guys help me out here i ve run fresh out of holidays that coincide with the baseball season and i m trying to catalogue all the days in his career that dave kingman or at least his bat went awol a complete religious calendar detailing every holiday in every extant religion in the western hemisphere would be appreciated only then can we truly be certain that dave kingman observed every holiday ever conceived of course not scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let s go mets jason a miller some doctor guy frank tanana win
rec.sport.baseball	re juan gonzalez hr title not real come back ten years from now and look at the careers of juan gonzalez vs mark mcguire and then tell us how bogus the juanderful one s hr title was i d say that by juan will be preparing his hof acceptance speech while the voters will be saying mark mcwho ken melcher i am typing real slow because e mail kmelcher arco com i know you can t read very fast
rec.sport.baseball	re ugliest stance was re ugliest swing alan all in all it s just another sepinwall writes ugliest stance of all time has to go to oscar gamble the man would practically kneel in front of home plate in order to have a small strike zone he s just lucky that strike zone size isn t determined by how big your afro is i agree however i have to object growing up in the early s and playing years of mario mendoza esque little league i was told that since my hitting well sucked i would do best to either walk or take one in the face for the team i did both and my yankee fan father would say bat like oscar gamble so i did and my career obp was about not only was oscar a fun guy to watch but he had some pretty cool baseball cards and helped me become one of the best little league players in history i m outta here like vladimir alan jason a miller some doctor guy frank tanana win
rec.sport.baseball	mlb standings and scores for wed apr st mlb standings and scores for wednesday april st including yesterday s games national west won lost pct gb last streak home road san francisco giants won houston astros lost atlanta braves won los angeles dodgers lost san diego padres lost colorado rockies lost cincinnati reds won national east philadelphia phillies won st louis cardinals won chicago cubs won montreal expos won pittsburgh pirates lost new york mets lost florida marlins lost american west won lost pct gb last streak home road texas rangers lost california angels won minnesota twins won chicago white sox won oakland athletics won seattle mariners lost kansas city royals won american east boston red sox won detroit tigers won toronto blue jays lost new york yankees lost milwaukee brewers lost cleveland indians lost baltimore orioles lost yesterday s scores idle teams listed in alphabetical order national league american league houston astros chicago white sox chicago cubs baltimore orioles los angeles dodgers texas rangers montreal expos detroit tigers cincinnati reds milwaukee brewers pittsburgh pirates minnesota twins atlanta braves toronto blue jays florida marlins kansas city royals san diego padres cleveland indians philadelphia phillies california angels san francisco giants new york yankees new york mets oakland athletics colorado rockies boston red sox st louis cardinals seattle mariners joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
rec.sport.baseball	re john franco in article apr zeus calpoly edu jplee cymbal calpoly edu jason lee writes what s with john franco the mets are hardly using him don t worry this is a perfectly normal state of affairs had they actually been using him you should be worried i heard he was completely recovered but now i m not so sure he s recovered totally from his injury that s why he s not pitching so he can rest his arm enough that he can get injured again pitching on days rest and then have fun dining in the diamond club in shea stadium while ay struggles every day out there if there is anybody out there with information about franco i would appreciate it if you could drop me a line i ve be quite happy to drop john franco just the same bring back randy myers no better make that bring back neil allen jason lee jplee oboe calpoly edu jlee cash busfac calpoly edu sf giants e i pi the most beautiful equation in mathematics magic for all sad words of tongue and pen the saddest are these number it might have been john greenleaf whittier jason a miller some doctor guy tanana
rec.sport.baseball	re bases loaded walk gives reds win in in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article mssc y d netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes for predicting the future it has been entirely meaningless at least if it has meaning we don t know how to find it i did not say i could predict the future you most certainly did i really don t want to get into a didso didnot debate with you but this is somewhat at the heart of our disagreement i did not say nor did i imply that i could predict the future you have inferred that my comments meant this and you have based your rebuttal of my comments on the fact that statistical studies have demonstrated that there is no reasonable basis for predicting future performance in regard to clutch hitting sabo samuel sabo is clearly a better hitter than samuel yet you would pinch hit samuel because you predict that samuel will be a clutch hitter and sabo will be a choke hitter right i d call that predicting the future that is your opinion that sabo is clearly a better hitter than samuel the above data is for a year period ending last season last season samuel batted while sabo hit not park adjusted this season they are both hitting below albeit sabo with more at bats i will agree that over his career sabo has been a better hitter than samuel but i will also remind you that samuel has been a better hitter in certain situations than sabo i did not predict that sabo would choke nor that samuel would get a hit i expressed my opinion that had i been the reds manager or even a reds fan that i would prefer to have samuel hit in that situation than sabo if you were to have been the reds manager at that time i assume you would have had some basis for letting sabo hit rather than pinch hitting samuel i m sure some of that basis would have utilized prior performance you just wouldn t have used this particular aspect of prior performance is this not correct right i would have used aspects of prior performance which have been shown to be consistent in the past overall performance l r splits even matching hitting pitching styles all of these will give me some advantage if used properly ah properly yes i see even if all else were equal there would be no advantage gained by looking at past clutch performance and in this case everything else pointed to sabo please help me what exactly is everything else that pointed to sabo well yes you are aware of its existance you claim to be incapable of understanding it though i suspect you are simply unwilling yet you rather forcefully state the opposite you don t seem to think the work is worth reading yet you obviously feel the topic is important i d say this is insulting i must say i was not aware of the publication can you email me the information regarding its availability and i guess i must apologize to all of those who have done extensive study on say supply side economics i didn t mean to insult you but i never did believe you were on the right path i m sorry for my contrary opinion position i also regret that i don t have the ability to prove that you are wrong but you are i believe that by season s end that chris sabo s batting average in clutch situations will be significantly lower than his batting average in non clutch situations i can t prove that it will happen so i guess we ll just have to wait and see is this simply a prediction for chris sabo for this year or is this a prediction for all batters who have over the past few years hit xxx amount worse in the clutch than overall it is what it says it is if you mean the first then as you say we ll just have to wait and see but the second is a much stronger statement in fact it suggests a rule we can then test this rule on past data to see if it worked for recent years i think you will agree that if the rule didn t work last year or the year before that it is unlikely to do any better this year right the second is your statement not mine i m not going to get into case analysis sure you can find somebody who hit poorly from and then hit poorly in as well you can also find those who hit poorly from and then hit well in well actually i haven t yet but i m not finished looking that is i haven t yet found someone who hit significantly below his overall batting average in clutch situations for the years and then reversed that relationship in gambler s fallacy unless there is reason to expect consistency a run proves nothing can you give us a reason to expect clutch ba to correlate from one year to the next i ve seen a detailed study of why i shouldn t expect it to correlate nope sorry but if you were interested in a reason why i expect chris sabo s ability to hit in the clutch to correlate from one year to the next i think i could if you were interested in a reason why i expect joe carter s ability to hit in the clutch to correlate from one year to the next i think i could but you re not interested in that because you think that those conclusions could only be valid if they could be extrapolated over the entire baseball population and they can t be the stupid was in reference to a statement which was stupid and i don t see how you can deny it as for total idiot yes if you prove yourself unwilling to even consider evidence that might suggest that you are wrong i would say the term fits nicely the problem here is that i do believe you i accept your work i believe that trying to predict future clutch performance based on prior clutch history is meaningless no better than a coin toss i actually do accept your work as it happens i also have an opinion that in certain situations for certain players a history of superior or inferior ability to hit in the clutch might suggest a reason what such history could be valid in projecting future player performance for that player and chris sabo is one such player so tell me does the term fit or do you have an open mind well since i defer to your statistical wisdom i think i must have an open mind now we have to pose the same question to you the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	re bases loaded walk gives reds win in in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article mssc y u dn netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes my supposition is that if we were to find the same players consistently year after year at one end of the bell or the other then we might be able to make some reasonable conclusions about those players as opposed to all baseball players this may be the root of the confusion please consider the following hypothetical with an open mind note that i am not yet saying that it has anything to do with the question at hand suppose we have a simplified lotto game detailed explanation deleted indeed you have struck right at the heart of our disagreement to rebut my opinion you have made an analogy with a game of chance your hypothesis assumes that the lotto players have no impact on the selection of the numbers and hence their ability to win well that s certainly true in lotto but it has absolutely nothing to do with the sport of baseball when you start down the wrong path you finish down the wrong path i repeat i do not think that statistical analysis of prior clutch hitting performance is an accurate predictor of future clutch hitting performance i do however think that analysis of prior clutch hitting performance may for some players indicate a deficiency in their game that indeed will provide a basis for projecting their particular future performance and i think chris sabo is such a player the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	re some baseball trivia in article texdude cs bradley edu texdude cs bradley edu philip allen writes who holds the record for most career strikeouts while playing for one team who holds the record for most career strikeouts for the rangers hint nolan ryan isn t either what two pitchers have over career saves for two different teams who is the only player to hit or more career home runs and steal or more career bases for the same team no fair peeking at your baseball stats phil allen texdude cs bradley edu i ll post my guesses to some of these and other trivia questions posted for most career k s with one team if it s not ryan perhaps steve carlton with the rangers hough was there for a long time in the saves department maybe lee smith he should have at least a hundred with the cubbies maybe enough with either the rsox or cards then maybe gossage nyy and sd fingers mil oak don t know about the homers steals dept in some other article mets trivia it could be tim leary in at least the losing to all teams maybe beating all of em too probably seaver and koosman fit too and in randy johnson s no hitter i think it was scott bradley the other half of the old mariner catching platoon who was behind the plate that night david plurad
rec.sport.baseball	re white and black racism was about the phillies in article quonm c network ucsd edu king cogsci ucsd edu jonathan king writes there s too many s here for my taste by now which means i ve reached my maximum depth on this thread i ve cut out some things below but nothing that should affect the sense of the discussion i agree i ll delete more as well fester island com mike fester writes king cogsci ucsd edu jonathan king writes perhaps you can give a more recent citation of any player mentioned as a malingerer thanks i guess i don t understand your question i was trying to imply that the accusations of glenn davis malingering were certainly not played up very much still if the whispers reached san francisco it is certainly possible they were stronger elsewhere also it was teammates making the aspersions in any event i know of no other player to be maligned in the last couple years but in any case i believe mike lavalliere has been accused of poor work habits and general sloth recently probably not malingering just as he was being released it s interesting that nobody heard much about these problems before if they were so important i have heard sanders called many things as well i have not heard him called lazy given the sport phenomenon it would be difficult to label him as such exactly so which means his media detractors have had to say other things about him i believe it s a general phenomenon that if writers don t like you they ll find a label that will stick no matter who you are i find myself more interested in the selection of labels than in why writers feel they need to act this way not that this fascinates me that much either uh the original author s point was that black and white players were por trayed differently by the media and towards this he gave a highly selected list to prove his case sanders name showed up eventually i dispute that sanders has ever been called lazy by the media hmm big ego possible club house disturbance etc is that good press no but it isn t the total extent of the press he received in pittsburgh where he was called all kinds of things including lazy and spoiled by the local columnists again the actual words used may shift around with time and expediency but lazy tends to be higher on the list for non white players at least in my subjective opinion aside it might be interesting for somebody to do an archival study on player descriptions before and after the color barrier was broken and on teams like the red sox which have been traditionally white nowadays most people think of carl yastrzemski as one of those blue collar hard working guys but in the early s he was often portrayed as a lazy bum really hmm i never heard anyone accuse canseco of being lazy nor sierra i ve heard accusations that canseco was a bad fielder but could be a great one if he put his mind to it ignoring whether or not he is a actually dave stewart is was one of the most vocal about this in any event that is not lazy at least one poster in the last week has fired off a major screed on the canseco is lazy issue so i think your point is at best a quibble and probably weaker than that uh that poster specifically stated allow me to be the first it is not a quibble then to state that the media did not portray canseco as being lazy if the other person chooses to so accuse him after my post that does not make it a quibble and in fact the media around here tend ed to play up his time in the wieght room hardly lazy and hardly a quibble have you ever seen any mediot portray canseco as lazy unconcerned with his fielding yes lazy no bad fielder i think this is still interesting for that matter i think canseco s colorful off field antics get lots more national attention than those of say roger clemens well he s had a few more of them at least more that you ve heard about i think one of the questions here surrounds selective reporting having said that i have to say that the selective reporting hypothesis has the potential to be unfalsifiable at least by those of us who aren t reporters police or private investigators well canseco has been involved in several felonies including his high speed record carrying concealed fire arms and of course the domestic violence clemens had a run in at a bar canseco had that as well and in both cases the coverage was relatively minimal puckett stewart jackson i said over represent non whites three anecdotal data points don t make an interesting counter argument btw which jackson are we talking about here reggie bo darrin danny or uh if the only evidence offered is anecdotal how can it be objected that the counter to it is also anecdotal and it seems like everybody who has ever won a batting title among others has been accused at some time of caring more for his own stats than for the good of the team it also seems to me that you re kirby puckett i have never heard this accusation made of puckett i have heard it of boggs actually i believe it of him but that s another matter not living in minnesota i can t say whether or not this line has ever been used against kirby there as far as boggs goes i m not sure why you bring him up since he s one of the obvious prototypes for the line i quoted along with ted williams rod carew and many others uh yes and i agree with your assesment of boggs rather specifically however you did say everybody who has ever won a batting title has been accused of selfishness i have not ever anywhere heard this said of puckett pendleton either similarly brett b williams and others how about daryl strawberry and i think the plus or minus refers more to the born again types ie butler and gaetti again you seem to be making an argument from anecdotes on the other hand my argument by is of the because jon says so variety if we have no other data i have to admit i have problems generating lists of non white players who became in famous for their religious or political beliefs while names like butler gaetti dravecky knepper hersheiser et al come rolling out there are others perhaps they are simply not as outspoken except in the case of the born again types i mention mike
rec.sport.baseball	re re all time best players b career don mattingly
rec.sport.baseball	the babe v the pride of the yankees the babe and the pride of the yankees offer very different renditions of the sotry about ruth and gherig hitting home runs for the boy in the hospital can some historian out there explain history s version of the story i wouldn t put is past either or both of the movies to season the truth with a little extra spice any other comments as to inaccuracies in these two movies eric a w behrens behrens cc swarthmore edu i d walk through hell in a gasoline suit to keep playing baseball pete rose
rec.sport.baseball	re some baseball trivia in article ra binnt gap caltech edu daplurad ugcs caltech edu david plurad writes in article texdude cs bradley edu texdude cs bradley edu philip allen writes who holds the record for most career strikeouts while playing for one team who holds the record for most career strikeouts for the rangers hint nolan ryan isn t either what two pitchers have over career saves for two different teams who is the only player to hit or more career home runs and steal or more career bases for the same team no fair peeking at your baseball stats phil allen texdude cs bradley edu i ll post my guesses to some of these and other trivia questions posted for most career k s with one team if it s not ryan perhaps steve carlton no way gotta be walter johnson all were with washington carlton spent too long in st louis to collect less than there with the rangers hough was there for a long time i d also guess hough due to his length of tenure though i suspect bobby witt wasn t far behind maybe even jenkins snuck in close in the saves department maybe lee smith he should have at least a hundred with the cubbies maybe enough with either the rsox or cards then maybe gossage nyy and sd fingers mil oak fingers had to have achieved with either mil or with sd so yes i d go with that guess otherwise i was thinking that reardon has a better chance of having with min along with i would think easily reaching with mon don t know about the homers steals dept gotta be willie mays i am fairly sure he had over steals in his career in some other article mets trivia it could be tim leary in at least the losing to all teams maybe beating all of em too probably seaver and koosman fit too hmmm leary is a really good point i d forgotten about him well if nothing else there are plenty of ex met pitchers in the category of could have lost to all teams koosman leary torrez ryan seaver i guess the best three guesses would be leary ryan and either seaver or koosman thomas talavage purdue university electrical engineering grad student grad school the greatest time of one s life where they pay you to do what you have spent the last years becoming good at
rec.sport.baseball	re how does a pitcher get a save in article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes mikef bvc edu writes for the record there are two ways that a reliever can get a save he must finish the game and either have entered the game with the tying run on base at bat or on deck have pitched at least three innings effectively a pitcher may not get a win and a save in the same game close but there s a number also have entered the game with no more than a run lead and pitched at least one inning if a pitcher finishes a game which his team has won does not get the win and satisfies at least one of the three requirements he gets a save rusty russell peltz peltz russell cs yale edu p o box y s new haven ct
rec.sport.baseball	re bob vesterman s plan to generate fan interest in article rvesterm vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes the owners are whining about baseball not being popular among a large enough portion of the population and have suggested various remedies such as shortening the game or trying to convince us that smoke embake emdominatebysheerintimidation is an accurate description of what is essentially a laid back game forget those lame ideas here is my new and exciting two point plan to generate interest in baseball among the masses point one sex point two violence let s face it sex and violence are the only things that sell in america here s how we can implement them in the game sex cheerleaders cheerleaders and more cheerleaders dancing on top of the dugouts bringing hot dogs to the umps during the seventh inning stretch running up and down the stands the south bend white sox actually do this violence baseball players are such utter wuss boys the pitcher beans the batter and both benches empty in what is called a bench clearing brawl everybody just stands there and looks at each other stand stand stand look look look ho hum then the bullpens come running in when they reach the fight they just stand there too anybody coming off the bench who does not throw at least one punch should be suspended and fined further the bullpens should fight it out in the outfield so as not to waste time and energy running to the infield i think what bob is describing here is a game which mad magazine called basebrawl i have no idea what issue but it sure did cover the violence issue paul football sex violence basketball sex violence hockey violence baseball da pastime of da nayshun yawn bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	re how to speed up games marginally realistic in article bd atlas nafb trw com mspede atlas nafb trw com writes in article r huvinniju jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo a iglesias writes batter and to my amazement the umpire missed it in the years that i played ball this was worst piece of umpiring i ever saw now this sounds like a fun topic in a slo pitch softball game we had the first base dugout one of our players hit a shot down the first base line with the bases loaded the only question was fair or foul ball hits ground chalk flies umpire calls foul we give him the standard didn t you see chalk line his response was it hit the foul half of the line we all started laughing mark pede not bad we had a similar situation slowpitch softball bases loaded weakest hitter at the plate he hits a line drive over the third baseman s head that hooked and hooked and finally landed ten feet in foul ground almost hitting the fence down that side of the field but the umpire called fair ball i was coaching third yelling at evrybody to move up a base the ump s position it was still fair when it passed third base why the other team didn t immediately protest i ll never know we certainly weren t going to argue about it since every body did manage to advance one base safely there was also the time when a batted ball ricocheted off my runner from second base leg fielded by the ss steps on second to force the runner from first and throw to first in time for what the umpire called a triple play protest removed when we won the game anyway clay d
rec.sport.baseball	re let s play the name game san francisco quakes by the way quakes is the nickname for the padres affiliate in the california league the rancho cucamunga quakes
rec.sport.baseball	rockies name pos ab h b b hr rbi rs sb e avg galarraga b sheaffer c boston of cole cf hayes b bichette rf e young b tatum b murphy of clark lf girardi c castilla ss benavides ss pitchers p g young of totals name l r gs cg ip h r er k bb era w l s aldred l ashby r wayne l neid r parrett r smith r blair r ruffin l henry l reed r holmes r totals
rec.sport.baseball	re yakult swallows japanese pro baseball team wednesday s game of beloved yakult swallows at jingu hanshin tigers beloved swallows w kasai l ito central league standing w l t pct gb hiroshima carp chunichi dragons hanshin tigers hated giants beloved swallows yokohama baystars hiroshi yajima e mail yajima nttcom ntt jp ntt network information systems laboratories midori cho chome musashino shi tokyo japan tel fax
rec.sport.baseball	re braves update in article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes in c sysg kad odin corp sgi com luigi sgi com randy palermo writes in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes did you see the same game i saw gant most reasonable argued a horrible call which hirschbeck correctly did nothing about gant then proceeded to walk halfway to rd base lean on his bat and glare at hirschbeck while i don t necessasarily subscribe to the theory of showing people up this was an obvious attempt by gant to do so to hirschbeck he left hirschbeck no choice but to take control of the situation the bottom line is gant started a dangerous power struggle with hirschbeck when his team needed him most and he lost the events i saw were called strike by hirschbeck was it just me or did it look like hirschbeck pointed to the b umpire before calling that strike i thought that s why gant was asking for the appeal to the st base umpire he thought hirschbeck had gotten checked swing help from the wrong umpire shocked looking gant asks for appeal to first no appeal to first gant steps out of batters box hirschbeck immediately orders gant back in bad move gant ignores hirschbeck and walks off bad move hirschbeck yells at gant gant is silent hirschbeck calls for the pitch after hirschbeck called for the pitch but before the pitch was thrown cox came onto the field it was obvious that he was trying to get time called before the pitch but no one was watching pitch is called a strike cox argues couldn t see when he came on the field cox is ejected players everywhere play finally resumes gant shouldn t have ignored hirschbeck not returning made the strike call fairly likely although i suspect an argument might have gotten gant tossed altogether but if hirschbeck had let gant step out the whole incident probably would have been avoided your listing pretty much agreed with what i saw with the aforementioned addendums perhaps it appeared differently at the ballpark personally i was amazed that gant didn t get ejected but that s why cox did it s called protecting your players and to those people who would have thrown everyone out of the game all i can say is that you d be making baseball history even in the worst baseball brawls usually only the major instigators are ejected not everyone who comes onto the field and i d have to say that those brawls are considerably more threatening to the game than what the braves did fri night anyhow that s my last two cents on the subject barring outrageous postings i will try to keep my eyes open for more incidents involving hirschbeck i think there will be some with other teams as well i hope not eric
rec.sport.baseball	re bosio s no hitter in article r hbsinnavr shelley u washington edu dudgeon opus cheme washington edu writes pb csc albany edu brown philip h writes i watched the final inning of bosio s no hitter with several people at work after vizquel made that barehanded grab of the chopper up the middle someone remarked that if he had fielded it with his glove he wouldn t have had time to throw riles out yet the throw beat riles by about two steps i wonder how many others who watched the final out think vizquel had no choice but to make the play with his bare hand in this morning s paper or was it on the radio vizquel was quoted as saying that he could have fielded the ball with his glove and still easily thrown out riles that he barehanded it instead so as to make the final play more memorable seems a litle cocky to me but he made it work so he s entitled i guess so still that s kind of a stupid move imo he d be singing a different tune if he had booted it and the next guy up had hit a bloop single stranger things have happened hey i used to be a big dave stieb fan and unfortunately there s no such thing as an unearned hit cheers charles
rec.sport.baseball	re how to speed up games marginally realistic in article pn ll mit edu ejb ll mit edu ed baranoski writes in article apr vfl paramax com davidm gvls vfl paramax com david madden writes if a pitcher throws to an occupied base more than x time x to without successfully picking off the runner the runner advances a base as if walked this last suggestion will probably increase the number of stolen bases considerably suppose the pitcher uses up n of his n pick off attempts the runner can probably stretch his lead off the base given that there will be extra pressure on the pitcher to get it right this time if it encouraged the runner to stretch his lead it would probably also result ina greater number of pickoffs i think it would be a workable rule but it would probably be best to experiment in another league before trying it in the bigs clay d
rec.sport.baseball	re bosox go down in smoke ii seattle in article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione writes dietz parody data io com kent dietz writes oh yea and chris bosio pitched a no hitter one over the minimum two have there ever been any other no hitters in mariner history randy johnson june against the tigers charles
rec.sport.baseball	re yanks over a s george speaks in apr eagle wesleyan edu kwolfer eagle wesleyan edu writes how about matt nokes run single against ron darling was that a hit or what while watching the game yesterday they flashed up something regarding the boss talking about mark connor as bullpen coach he said something like it s mark connor s fault that the bullpen is so horrible here we go again george sticking his non baseball nose in the baseball business shut up george just spend the money get the players and leave buck and the coaches and players alone i saw that quote flashed on the screen yesterday also and what enraged me more than anything was not that george was speaking up agai and complaining to the media instead of to the proper people it was that the idiot reporter provided george with an outlet and an opportunity to create trouble this is a supreme example of how the media can truly control situations the local beat reporters should know better and should stop trying to one up each other with quotes from the boss if they just ignored him he d really simply go away and problems would be avoided what that reporter did was potentially to open up the floodgates again asshole
rec.sport.baseball	re triva question on bosio s no hitter wall cc swarthmore edu matthew wall writes i don t actually have the answer to this one bosio after walking the first two batters retired straight for a back end perfect game well there were outs in a row with no hits or walks in between but really he only retired batters in a row the first out of the game was the front end of a double play still counts as a back end perfect game in my book though congrats to chris bosio too bad the brewers couldn t hold on to him jon hamkins hamkins uiuc edu university of illionois
rec.sport.baseball	yankees schedule can someone in this net post a yankee schedule i need this right away thank you
rec.sport.baseball	re yankee thoughts velarde etc in article netnews upenn edu kkeller mail sas upenn edu keith keller writes real long but good post on yankee trades omitted i disagree on one point velarde yes maybe the yanks should have let him develop but he rode the columbus shuttle way too many times to do so probably the fault of george but no matter now his usefulness is done he will not be able to develop into a good player this deep in his career at least i don t think so his fielding is horrendous at rd maybe he d be good at short he can t his the curve at all and i think all his trips from new york to columbus and back have demoralized him to the point that he just doesn t care get rid of him i say the sooner the better for both the yanks and velarde keith keller let s go rangers velarde hasn t been to columbus if i recall for about three years granted he hasn t been a full time player but when he does play i ve always thought he had a good bat he might be demoralized about not playing full time but he hasn t been shuttled around i think he s been in new york ever since he had hits in ab back in or i believe i don t think he is gold glove calibre but he doesn t boot it around either i think if velarde is given a chance he could become extremely productive i don t have any stats to back this up and i don t know if his defense would cost any games but i think he could help and he has this year he has hr already same goes for jim leyrtiz he has a big mouth but he does get the job done when he concentrates i think the situation with leyritz is that he believes he is a potential super star and he gets pissed about not playing i think he might have realized something when the marlins or rockies didn t select him the yanks need to worry about the bullpen right now kamieniecki and wickman militello in the bullpen ouch i m praying that the bp will return to last year s form chris what i m listening to giant wam umd edu anything that guitar god go yankees dann huff plays on
rec.sport.baseball	re rule book trivia in article io maine maine edu ryan robbins io maine maine edu writes rule k states it is interference by a batter or runner when in running the last half of the distance from home base to first base he runs outside the three foot line or inside to the left of the foul line and in the umpire s judgment interferes with the field er taking the throw at first base the key word in the rule is and a runner isn t out just for running out of the baseline he s out for interfering with the fielding of the ball or throw or fielding of the throw to first because the catcher opted to throw the ball over the batter runner s head there s no inter ference sorry i still don t buy it you re certainly right that the runner is not out merely for running out of the baseline he must interfere with the play but the argument here is over what constitutes interference you certainly cannot infer from what you ve quoted that the batter runner must be hit by the ball to be guilty of interference you haven t posted a definition of interference at all imo this calls for one of the approved ruling s that go in small print in the rulebook something like approved ruling if in the judgement of the umpire the runner by running to the left of the allowed path caused the fielder to make a bad throw blocks the vision of the fielder receiving the throw or otherwise impedes the defensive team s making a play on him the batter runner shall be judeged guilty of interference or approved ruling the runner cannot be judged guilty of interference in the unless he makes contact with a fielder or is hit by the thrown ball in the absence of such an approved ruling i claim that this is a poor rules trivia question since it cannot be authoritatively answered len reed holos software inc voice ext domain lbr holos atl ga usa uucp lbr holos uucp
rec.sport.baseball	re jose canseco s swing vs g waugaman nac enet dec com glenn r waugaman writes gary s list of the ten slowest bats in baseball andre dawson what peter gammons andre tremendous bat speed dawson bat speed so great that dawson has trouble hitting the ball to the right side of the left field line without counting to before swinging bat speed never before seen from a year old man much less from any red sox player to precede him yes that s him was i not specific enough just because someone consistently pulls the ball does not mean that they have a quick bat dawson s release is slow and he is after all he may swing early and rotate his hips so that he hits the ball to the left side all the time but he swings slowly as for me disagreeing with peter gammons whoa that s never happened before next thing you know i ll probably believe dave campbell is the biggest imbecile even to come near a mic and that ray knight has the iq of drained crankcase oil gary huckabay outside that was right down the bleedin pipe balder than any kenny i realize i don t have great control but dave on the net c mon gary that was a styrofoam cup the really plate s a foot to your right throw the ball
rec.sport.baseball	john wetteland derek lilliquist info please hi there i was wondering if anyone knew if john wetteland was put on the dl again after his first day period was up i read in the usa today sports section that he is on for surgery to repair broken toe and was wondering if that was new i thought he was just letting it heal another question is derek lilliquist the main closer for the indians now that olin is gone i need to know cause i need to find a reliever to replace wetteland and so far lilliquist is doing ok any information on either of the players would be greatly appreciated thank you for your time ryan robin texas rangers in jose canseco for mvp ryan n robin weatherford hall corvallis or robinr prism cs orst edu
rec.sport.baseball	re john franco date fri apr gmt from tackey chan tac world std com wall cc swarthmore edu matthew wall writes so anybody know what s up with john franco are the mets just starting him off gingerly because of the small amount of spring training work or what the mets are really starting him off slow mike maddax and young can do the job of closing torborg has said that he franco is his closer but will give him rest and not rush him since there is no need he does not want franco to get hurt on his return i have this guy so i know what it is like to see him pitch inns in that lat weeks tac well they just said that franco will probably go on the dl tomorrow they mentioned a career minor leaguer as the warm body who would go along i forget also when answering questions about the rotation coleman sd broadcaster said that hurst is gone in about a month month and a half which is when he should finish re hab later dennis dennis parslow that better be a korean good troy ny luck symbol remo williams p psilink com
rec.sport.baseball	re best homeruns in article qn tqinnmnf senator bedfellow mit edu cmk athena mit edu charles m kozierok writes in article apr osf org dswartz osf org dan swartzendruber writes the best home run i have ever seen came off believe it or not roger clemens sorry val a couple of years ago he threw a ball to incaviglia which was literally at inky s neck and he absolutely hammered the crap out of it after the swing clemens nonchalantly motioned for a new ball he didn t even turn around to look or even get upset the ball hit the lights in the left field standard some or so feet about the green monster over feet above the ground total truly an amazing shot i was at that game behind home plate next to a scout who was manning the radar gun the season was winding down and roger didn t have his best fastball topping out at in contrast to frank tanana who went as low as with one lollipop in the process of striking out phil plantier five times on the night inky s shot would have gone further than any i ve ever seen if it hadn t crashed into the lights not the lightstand as you say over feet high roy hobbs like and bounced back onto the field that had to have been a footer if unobstructed edging out bo jackson s drive off oil can boyd to the top of the centerfield bleacher back wall in for the best i ve seen personally i was sitting under that one glenn waugaman digital equipment corporation littleton ma g waugaman nac enet dec com
rec.sport.baseball	mike greenwell and mo vaughn stat help dear anybody i am in rochester ny where people can look at a rangers penguins playoff game and say no joke i heard it hey whats this oh its not even the ahl its just the nhl i think because of this e get red wings orioles aaa stats and updates but no al or nl stats specifically im looking for red sox stats so far id like all of them but could handle just greenwell and vaughn can anybody please help me wizard ec b uhura cc rochester edu
rec.sport.baseball	re all time best players in article apr woods ulowell edu poiriera woods ulowell edu writes this chatting about the best player of all time is pointless you can t compare players from different era s of course you can you just have to be careful about what conclusions you draw if you will notice the best pitchers stat wise were in the s and s and the best all around hitters probably came from the s to s huh the s and s were the worst decades for great pitching grove vance dean and not a whole lot else as for the best all around hitters stat wise ruth gehrig foxx greenberg hornsby cobb etc all played before the s stat wise the s were a graveyard for hitters now we have a great number of great pitchers and an equally great number of great hitters and fielders also how do you know which ones do you consider great about fielding the gloves were much smaller than they are now in the early years of baseball maybe a hitter like sheffield with the ba hr and rbi even though it was probably a fluke year can be compared to a mantle because the pitching sheffield faces is faster and not to mention better the so sheffield also has better shoes more time between pitches you can run the comparison but there are lots of things to take into account same could be said for frank thomas who is said to be the best hitter since ted williams although frank s defense does suck well can we compare them or can t we all i am saying is that you can t compare players from different era s if you want a best player try choosing best players from different era s that why we can compare players to the standard of their era and we can keep in mind era to era differences without throwing up our hands in despair way there is reasonable basis for comparison you haven t shown us what s un reasonable about the mantle sheffield comparison that you yourself did roger
rec.sport.baseball	re speeding up games in article rudyc wcsg g a netcom com rudy netcom com rudy wade writes i feel that talking about speeding up baseball games is like trying to keep signal to noise ratio high on rec sports baseball no matter how much you talk about it or how reasonable your arguments there will always be people who quote an entire article with signatures to make a one line comment reply or woof whether through their stupidity denseness or excitement and overeagerness to bless us with their insight no matter what is said they will always keep doing it same with ballgames no matter how much it might benefit the game for the umpires to enforce the rules and for the players managers coaches to stop wasting our time it just ain t gonna happen rudy i agree
rec.sport.baseball	re re all time best players drm tesla njit edu writes b career don mattingly lou gehrig ironman steve novak ban the bomb ban the pope steven advtech uswest com
rec.sport.baseball	cubbies is there a chicago cubs mailing list if so i d like to join any help appreciated
rec.sport.baseball	re time of game in article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes the reason i m unhappy with the length of games today is summed up above for an extra minutes game average in the al and an extra minutes average in the nl i m seeing fewer runs score now what i think i am seeing is more pitches more strikeouts over game in the al over game more in the nl more walks game more in yep and the ks don t have to denote a slow game either last night sid fernandez was mowing the giants hitters down ks in innings yet the first innings of the game were quite brisk he also threw pitches leading me to believe it isn t just the number of pitches that determines the length of a game but the behavior between pitches michael zimmers voice softhelp suppliers to software developers data
rec.sport.baseball	re cub fever in article kingoz camelot kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes cub fever is hitting me again i m beginning to think they have a chance this year what the heck am i thinking sorry just a moment of incompetence i ll be ok really orin bradley u i m really a jester in disguise i hear ya then again we must remember that we are indeed cub fans and that the cubs will eventually blow it after all the cubs are the easiest team in the national league to root for no pressure you know they will lose eventually oh well i suppose we must have faith after all they do look pretty good and they don t even have sandberg back yet cubs in cha
rec.sport.baseball	re why is barry bonds not batting th in article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione writes i don t understand this at all matt williams has demonstrated throughout his career that he will not wait for good pitches to hit he won t take walks he d rather swing if i m the opposing pitcher why would i groove a fastball to williams and have him hit it well when i know that williams will swing and miss or at least not hit very well at a low and away curve matt s problem is really more ability than attitude it isn t that he s got it in his mind that he wants to swing away but rather that he s still a total sucker for the curve ball it looked for a while in that he was getting better but it s still his weak point as to whether it does him any good to have bonds behind him the net stat mavens will probably tell you there s no reason that it should but if he thinks it will it might be a self fulfilling prophecy as to whether the giants lineup is optimal who knows batting bonds the team s best hitter fifth does seem to be odd but the and hitters aren t exactly messrs oba so they aren t giving much up there and although clark isn t the overall offensive force that bonds is he seems better suited to the spot assuming of course that he starts hitting one of these days michael zimmers voice softhelp suppliers to software developers data
rec.sport.baseball	re game length was re braves update ecaxron ariel lerc nasa gov ron graham writes i think that everything else being equal it s not too much to ask that if a weeknight game can be shortened by half an hour by cutting out warmup pitches dawdling outside the batter s box commerical time outs and that sort of thing i m not asking for too much how do you know they can be shortened by half an hour has anybody done a study to determine how much time is actually wasted say in these a s games heather hhenderson vax clarku edu
rec.sport.baseball	new yankees mailing list hi all i got tired of waiting for a mailing list so i am going to make one just send me your complete e mail address on your message and i ll send you a confirmation and the yankee mailing list address john go yankees
rec.sport.baseball	re ron gant stalling and hirschbeck in apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes in article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes but in the past a disputed strike call has been enough reason to step out of the batters box it may not be a good idea it may even irritate the umpire but i ve seen it a lot and i ve seen it tolerated just not this time the key words here are in the past everybody was warned before the season began that the umpires had been instructed to enforce the rule in the interest of speeding up the game when i see this happening to other players i ll post a public apology to mr hirschbeck until then i think this was a case of selective enforcement dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	how to start cardinals mailing list o k it would be a shame for cards fans on the net to go through the championship season without a mailing list to talk on so i would be willing to look at starting one except there s one little problem i don t know the first thing about how to do it or what it requires in terms of resources or time so if some kind soul could e mail me the particulars of getting starting and managing a mail list i d see if it would be feasible for me to start a cards mailing list thanks in advance dick detweiler rdetweil hpdmd boi hp com
rec.sport.baseball	re a rooky question about the era whitty cv hp com joe whitty writes thomas theiner thein damabus informatik rwth aachen de wrote hi there i m german and i have been into this mlb stuff since almost one year now there are many problems occuring for me one of them is the era statistic for pitchers what does it say era indicates the average number of earned runs attributed to a pitcher per nine inning game thus if a pitcher pitched innings and gave up earned run his inning equivelent perfomance would be earned runs thus his era is to compute the era you simply take the number of earned runs divided by the innings pitched and then multiple the result by era er ip i think there is another formula for era i heard something about it last year im not sure what it is but im gonna give it a stab it allows for a pitcher to pitch more than innings at a time and not benefit cuz it uses outs recorded instead of innings pitched era er outs recorded like i said im not sure this is exactly it but im pretty sure they changed it to something of the sort an earned run is run that is given up by the pitcher that is not attributed to a fielding error more specifically if an error occurs that represented the third out all runs scored after the error are considered unearned runs earned runs are also runs scored as a result of players who were left on base when the pitcher exited the game here are some examples if there are two outs in an inning and there are men on base if an error occurs that represents the third out all of the runs after this error and not counted as earned runs if a pitcher issues some base on balls walks and leaves the game before the inning is completed he is responsible for the people who were left on base if the those runners who were left on base score and the score was not a result of an error those eraned runs are attributed to the pitcher who left the game i hope this explains things for you joe
rec.sport.baseball	re game length was re braves update in article apr vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes ecaxron ariel lerc nasa gov ron graham writes i think that everything else being equal it s not too much to ask that if a weeknight game can be shortened by half an hour by cutting out warmup pitches dawdling outside the batter s box commercial time outs and that sort of thing i m not asking for too much how do you know they can be shortened by half an hour has anybody done a study to determine how much time is actually wasted say in these a s games oh probably ms nichols has given the average game times and average runs scored for and a very nice piece of information ms nichols who knows she may be listening and not have me in her kill file after all those numbers indicate somewhere in the neighborhood of half a run less being scored per game and the games taking minutes longer something is being done now that wasn t done ten years ago which is extending the games by minutes ms nichols thinks it s more pitches given the increasing specialization of pitchers it wouldn t surprise me if it s not simply more pitches though i don t think it s unreasonable to think that something can be done to get ten of those minutes back then i get a couple more from shortening the warmup time for a relief pitcher after he comes in and a couple more still from enforcing existing rules which have been stated in other posts in this thread and other related ones the problem is who decides whether that time is wasted you don t seem to think it is at all right now i think it is although i have heard one case favoring giving the reliever all the warmups he thinks he needs the difference in mounds between the field and pen but who knows if the rules get changed maybe something i didn t foresee will happen to change my mind but you can bet a lot of minds would fail to foresee the same thing or else nothing will be changed rg i can play me better than anyone there s only one of me barry bonds on playing himself in two movies
rec.sport.baseball	re re all time best players overall career don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly
rec.sport.baseball	re bonilla in article apr island com fester island com mike fester writes in article apr princeton edu roger astro princeton edu roger lustig writes when i say black i mean us born black people for the purposes of this discussion hispanic players were in baseball before and one team in the s signed lots of hispanics because they went over better with the local audience than blacks did what about black hispanics good question it s my impression not backed by evidence that general south of the borderness seems to exempt one from the hiring firing effect i was talking about back in the s there were some attempts to hire black cuban ballplayers they were rejected by the commissioner and others and why would more hispanics stick around than blacks don t know but remember this is the country that had special racial laws for one group and one group only blacks our national history man you had better do some serious reading i really really doubt that you meant to say this well what did i mean to say aside from some short lived exceptions such as japanese internment in ww ii only blacks were affected by laws regarding slavery jim crow miscegenation military service etc if my claim of exclusivity is not airtight that is if you can come up with this or that exception fine have a cookie but compared to this list no other racial group put up with a legal onslaught worth discussing at length roger
rec.sport.baseball	re winfield s spot on the all time greats team in article apr alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david m tate writes in article c wewd kto murdoch acc virginia edu drw l delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker writes in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david m tate writes ielding rf of all time as far as anyone can tell i did a quick scan last night looking for players with a peak comparable to or better than winfield in my quick n dirty subjective judgement you could make good cases for ruth aaron ott robinson clemente kaline maris klein jackson waner and probably a few others this is not a knock on winfield but a comment on his consistency all of those other players had awesome stretches and very good stretches while winfield has been more uniformly excellent hall of fame absolutely top peak i m not so sure top total career value yes almost certainly point taken when was winfield s peak years anyway probably around that s the trouble what peak years he wavers between excellent and very good with no real bell shaped pattern in there was a fine year and were merely really good with the yankees i think was the best that was the one with the ba of course wasn t bad either he s been in the bigs since with a one year intermission for surgery though he doesn t have the mix of skills that pete rose did he s like pete rose in one way he s not a natural hitter winfield s swing used to be the ugliest thing in new york and that includes the gulf western building but his sheer athletic prowess and physical size made up for a lot fascinating player to watch even now not obviously great in any one way but able to do quite a few things in surprising ways and at surprising levels roger
rec.sport.baseball	re rule book trivia in article io maine maine edu ryan robbins io maine maine edu writes this week s play it took three days to get to us but i ll try anyway as i naturally haven t seen the answer with runners at first and second and one out the batter hits an easy pop fly to the third baseman a the umpires declare the infield fly rule and the third baseman lets the ball drop the runner at second heads for third and the third baseman flips the ball to the short stop who tags the bag before the runner safe the correct call is infield fly batter out if fair runners may advance at own risk gotta tag up if caught etc it is not a force and the pop was not caught so regardless of whether the ss tags b or b it wasn t clear above he hasn t got the runner out b the umpires don t declare the infield fly rule and the third baseman allows the ball to drop and throws to the short stop who tags the runner from second while the runner is between second and third out see rule l approved ruling below in this case the umpire has decided for whatever reason that the infield fly rule doesn t apply sounds like a bad call here but that s not the point the batter is not out so a force situation is created therefore the runner is out unless by rule l the ball is dead and the batter is safe then i guess the runners would advance unmolested i can t really tell from l that the ball is dead in this situation what s the call in a and b pertinent rules definition of infield fly when an infield fly is called runners may advance at their own risk if on an infield fly rule the infielder intentionally drops a fair ball the ball remains in play despite the provisions of rule l the infield fly rule takes precedence l a batter is out when an infielder intentionally drops a fair fly ball or line drive with first first and second first and thrid or first second and third base occupied before two are out the ball is dead and the runners or runners shall return to their original base or bases approved ruling in this situation the batter is not out if the infielder permits the ball the drop untouched to the ground except when the infield fly rule applies jim dean internet jimdean bnr ca national capital baseball league mild mannered computer scientist phone president pitcher my knuckler bell northern research ottawa ont booth not too legit to hit phone fax phone
rec.sport.baseball	re how to speed up games marginally realistic to really speed up the game umps need to start calling strikes the way they used to i m talking about making the strike zone start at the knees and go up to the top of the letters forget this the strike zone is in the general area of the groin a lot less and counts and a quicker game
rec.sport.baseball	advertised commercialized to death during the local rockies broadcast the other day don baylor went out to bring in a relief pitcher and a graphic came up on the screen that it was the so and so sponsored pitching change i saw another game where the pinch hitter was sponsored at other times during the game rockies announcer duane kuiper was setting up the strategy that the defense might use with the expectation that charlie jones would jump in and discuss the situation but what does charlie do he read s a beer advertisement and leaves duane hanging duane s strategy proved prophetic these examples happen over and over on radio and t v braodcasts making them sometimes very boring to listen to i guess it s just a matter of time before a player sells his name to budweiser nike etc i don t think it will be long until we hear nike budweiser drills it deep to left field chevrolet goes back back it s gone the apple macintoshes formerly the boston red sox are the world champions back to work anthony m jivoin national center for atmospheric research rsf atd fl p o box boulder co p s rockies fans have the brooms ready for the marlins this weekend
rec.sport.baseball	apology for article it s me again i apologize to everyone out there whom i might have pissed off with that one article about don mattingly when i said he was the best first basemam in history i meant fielding first baseman which he is no one can argue with that
rec.sport.baseball	re strike zone width was re jose canseco s swing in article bd atlas nafb trw com mspede atlas nafb trw com writes huckabay s counting frames for bat speed discussion ommited well it s just studying tape frame by frame that s all the biggest thing that you notice however is how bastardized the strike zone has become death to the umpires union the plate is across not call the high strikes strikes and quit calling pitches outside strikes they re balls speaking of this wide strike zone i d sure like to see cameras placed in each major league park such that an overview shot of home plate is available cbs had this during the ws or did i just dream it these pictures would be a feedback device for the umpires so that they can see just how terrible or not there calls were tapes could be sent to the league as evidence of bad ball strike umpiring tapes are available as evidence of bad out safe calls on the bases i guess that nobody noticed that the calls during the world series and in fact all year have been pretty much consistently correct remember the rule says it s a strike if any part of the ball passes through the strike zone i would certainly agree that high strikes are not called who could argue this point but all in all i think in and out is called pretty well rstimets
rec.sport.baseball	re hey red sox fans paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen writes woof gawd how i hate myself for doing this but sometimes you get those urges that are too powerful to overcome to quote sportscenter bosiooo ooo ooo hey bosio threw a no no what the hell a red sox fan going to say to that heck remeber matt young last year ick tac
rec.sport.baseball	stats question i am just wondering whether the official mlb stats includes intentional walks in the bb category or not wenhsiang lin
rec.sport.baseball	tickets for sale my brother purchased baseball tickets for texas rangers vs toronto bluejays in july but he was unable to get vacation days to get there is anyone interested in purchasing the following arlington stadium arlington texas texas rangers vs toronto bluejays thursday july friday july tickets section helmet night each tickets section each if you want them all the total is please contact me over e mail or directly to my brother randy hollister rosemont lane streator il my brother would be eternally grateful for someone to purchase these tickets thank you j broocks knossos u washington edu
rec.sport.baseball	re the babe v the pride of the yankees behrens cc swarthmore edu eric behrens writes the babe and the pride of the yankees offer very different renditions of the sotry about ruth and gherig hitting home runs for the boy in the hospital can some historian out there explain history s version of the story i wouldn t put is past either or both of the movies to season the truth with a little extra spice any other comments as to inaccuracies in these two movies good question i kind of wondered about this myself just one thought i had on it the babe himself was in pride of the yankees which made me think a that version may be closer to the truth and b the babe must have been a pretty good gut to be in the movie even though some of the scenes didn t make him look completely flattering chris roney e mail chris roney sfu ca
rec.sport.baseball	re highlights in article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes might i suggest that a more appropriate forum for game by game highlights of a particular team is a mailing list rather than rec sport baseball i looked up might to see why you selected that particular word and discovered the line to express permission liberty probability possibility it also said something about being a polite alternative to may the presence of probability possibility can certainly be used to partially explain your word selection so i d say to all extents and purposes yes you might in fact you did not that you were asking me specifically the next question is why would a mailing list be more appropriate we don t all get mailing lists we surely don t all get mailing lists about the teams about which we are most enthused so it seems to me r s baseball is an appropriate place to look for information about teams one doesn t necessarily follow day to day this is not intended as flamage but rather is an attempted answer as you posed your post as a question it bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait ba a i b anyone for lemur sooshi t that s sushi learn to spell you pathetic winker
rec.sport.hockey	re don cherry help me out here in article apr alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes in article mfpirbo wbli ispc andrew cmu edu william k willis ww a andrew cmu edu writes as a person who has rarely even seen don cherry and doesn t know anything about him i don t know whether it is just this area pittsburgh of the usa that is deprived of his broadcasts or whether he s a canadian thing altogether seriously what is he all about i know he was a coach at one time and from the volume of posts about him someone surely is getting a steady diet of him somehow but my question is what is the deal with him secondly are the comments of his that i read about on the net merely flame bait or do people actually take him seriously i gotta tell you from what i see he really sounds like an ass let me know maybe i m missing something for those of you who complain about don cherry and wonder why he is popular the reply is dick vitale and john madden and bobby knight and joe garagiola and howard cosell john madden picks gary clark of the redskins for his all madden team a lot over much better receivers for much the same reasons cherry sings the praises of doug gilmour a little guy with heart yet one doesn t see a string of american posts saying that john madden has lost his marbles dick vitale is always promoting this kid from this high school or that college with outrageous statements why should americans expect that canada would not have such characters in relation to our greatest passion which is hockey canadians are very similar to americans culturally our sports are just hockey and curling whereas with americans it is football basketball baseball and bowling gerald i d like to add that i think canadian hockey fans like don because his kind of hockey the hockey he promotes in his tv appearances is the kind that they think used to get played in the old team nhl so there s a kind of nostagia for the old days before expansion the soviet series gretzky and even bobby orr when guys weren t afraid to take a hit nobody floated and defensemen played defence who cares that that probably never really existed the myth is still around in canada and all the european in fluence on the game has diminished it in some people s eyes personally i d like to add before i get flamed i love the fast paced european game and think don cherry is a bit of an idiot i have to say that i missed him when i was living in the states though he is entertaining even if you end up throwing your popcorn at the screen when he s on i stand by all the misstatements that i ve made vice president dan quayle to sam donaldson me too nick duncan duncan mprgate mpr ca
rec.sport.hockey	re espn up yours in article c u cd news udel edu tmavor earthview cms udel edu writes various justifiable rantings on espn coverage by several deleted the only way to change espn s thinking if it is even possible is to complain to them directly anyone know there telephone in bristol ct heh try the rec autos sport faq they are always calling espn to complain i m sure you could find the number for abc there too as many west coast viewers were compaining about how something as boring as hockey cut into the long beach gp i do find it hard to believe that espn doesn t think viewers will simply change the channel from a boring game i know i did and then when they didn t show the nyi wash overtime s i was livid if i wanted to watch baseball i could have turned on the phillies padres extra inning game instead i went to bed angry i boycotted espn s morning sportscenter today i was still so incensed were you and several of the other people here it seems asleep the day contracts were explained aspn has a piece of paper saying it must show that baseball game if it happens many businesses payedd money to have their commercials run during a baseball game this is a business not your own personal video servant my wife says i shouldn t go to bed angry but last nite grrrrrrr maybe you should put that anger into something positive for example i saw ads for the new dodge both on the espn and kbl broadcasts why not write to dodge saying that thanks to the ads run during the stanley cup playoffs you will now concider their products in the future they love to hear stuff like that and in the future will be more willing to buy commercial time for hockey games giving espn and other networks more incentive to carry games just one example come on people as great as we think it is hockey does not leapfrog the big three overight tim mavor i am known by many names college of marine studies some call me tim univ of delaware newark de you know much that is hidden o tim tmavor pandora cms udel edu monty python and the holy grail
rec.sport.hockey	re if you were pat burns mark d whitten nfet cmuvm csv cmich edu writes if i were pat burns i d throw in the towel the wings dominated every aspect of the game trying to mix up the lines is a dead end as the rangers found out in last year s playoffs it s too late to try line juggling at this point gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	sabres are playing well but i have to agree boston is a good team but streaky they put together a great streak to capture first place in the adams but for what they have lost the home ice advantage for at least the first round and might not make it out of it i would love to see the sabres win the first round even though i bet on the bruins a pack oh well perhaps i should start betting against the sabres more often ciao jason bittle bittle canisius edu a k a pillsbury dough boy quote i compute therefore i b m
rec.sport.hockey	re s in article r on p bigboote wpi edu ching bigwpi wpi edu the logistician writes i am in need of all of the players wearing in the nhl i know now only of one ray borque for the bruins any help would be greatly appreciated i believe that phil esposito was the first to wear when he played with the rangers in the s this was the season that they put the rangers crest and modern style numbers on the jerseys instead of the new york or rangers block letters and two colour numbers he took because the rangers already had a hockey night in canada made a big thing out of it saying it was the biggest uniform style change in a long time this was before pittsburgh and vancouver changed their colours dwarf w jim jordan i don t mean to tell you how to live dwarf x gate bnr ca internet your life that s what the tv s for i work for bnr i do not speak for it but if i didn t believe in jesus i d be going to hell peter heath
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl draft san jose will then get kariya ya know that kind of funny cause i ve seen kariya on campus with a sharks hat on pat ellis p s go bruins go umaine black bears number hockey east regulars season champions hockey east tournament champions paul kariya hobey baker award winner ncaa div hockey tournament champions m a i n e ggggooooooo bbbllluueeee
rec.sport.hockey	re german audience is lunatic in article apr ousrvr oulu fi golf phoenix oulu fi jouko kylmaoja wrote i watched the game germany czechs in wc today and i was astonished about the behaviour of the german audience the german team got a few penalties in the last period and the crowd went grazy they threw coins extra pucks and other trash into the rink is that stupid or what i guess the canadian referee one of the isostar bros gave the german team a penalty for that but it didn t help much i guess the germans just are proud over their nazi kill em all everyone but us germans sucks attitude they just seem to have that kind of attitude in every possible sport remember the european champs in stockholm in soccer it really pisses me off i do not mean that every single german has this attitude that sucks but most of them seem to do i can understand your anger about the german audience i mean it was the finnish team they played and they were taking advantage of the ridiculous penalties the canadien ref called in the last period the germans got a match penalty and a minutes misconduct for practically nothing and seconds after that the german goalie got two minutes for delay of game for a shot that was deflected and went into the crowd the resulting skating advantage lead to the deciding goal at a point when the germans were starting to come up strong i am also sick of the nationalism that is going on in german sports events if you watch for example a tennis davis cup match the players are often not able to play for minutes because the crowd is so obnoxious but i have to admit that this kind of nationalism is as strong or even stronger in most other countries you should go to the us and watch the way they present the olympics on television or the soccer crowds in england or the finnish spectators at nordic skiing events i mean it makes me sick to see all this nationalism all over the world and i would rather see the best team player win and get cheared at i do not mind if my favorite team looses to somebody that is better or plays more attractive and i have to admit that in most sports the german national site is not my favorite team to watch the german soccer team is boring to watch for example but reading the above posting i think that you are on the same level as these crowds you are criticizing it is easy to talk of nearly all germans as nazis and nationalists thats the kind of propaganda that all ultraconservative people use against germany it is true that there is a great danger of re arising nationalism in germany but from my experience most of the people at least of the people that i know also regard this as a big threat and are trying to demonstrate this attitude now why can t we just look at people as human beeings and not try to put them into drawers corresponding to their nationality eg all russians are communists all americans are capitalists all germans are nazis all fins are hanging around beeing drunk on ferries in my opinion your comment shows the narrowness of your mind and that you don t seem to be different from the nazis you are talking about thomas there s no time to hate barely time to wait jerry garcia robert hunter
rec.sport.hockey	re espn up yours actually i was angry when they went away from the pens game being a pens fan in central virginia is kinda tough i only get to see them on espn and when they play the caps cause we re close enough to dc to get all the caps games so when espn switched to the caps aaaggghhh matt
rec.sport.hockey	re flyers with without eric in article apr btree uucp terry btree uucp terry whalen writes path netnews upenn edu newsserver jvnc net howland reston ans net usc news se ervice uci edu network ucsd edu btree terry from terry btree uucp terry whalen newsgroups rec sport hockey subject re flyers with without eric message id apr btree uucp date apr gmt references apr ns cc lehigh edu organization brooktree corporation lines in article apr ns cc lehigh edu ksc ns cc lehigh edu kevin s carragher writes the philadelphia inquirer posted the following stats with lindros goals against average goals scored average without lindros goals against average goals scored average i think the difference is obvious he s a dominant player skip yes he is he will become a major franchise player and bring the flyers to the cup in or years will they name lindros captain next year or recchi geoff
rec.sport.hockey	re goodbye good riddance get lost stars first off anyone accepted into the western business school is not a dork second just because one person out of a country of million doesn t think before he she posts an article does not mean that he she is embarrasing canada this network is for expressing what you feel are your thoughts just because someone doesn t agree with you this does not give you the right to call them assholes anyways the north stars are shit c mon leafs whoa there lighten up andrew when i was referring to you dorks at the western business school i was specifically referring to those assholes writing obnoxious comments insulting the state and people of minnesota for no apparent reason being canadian and one who has friends who attended uwo i personally don t want to be associated with the idiots who wrote those messages one more thing andrew until this season the leafs have sucked pretty badly over the last umpteen years have they won the cup during our lifetime so the north stars haven t been the only shit team in the norris kea
rec.sport.hockey	selfish hockey fans on tuesday when it was raining in chicago espn provided bonus hockey coverage now it seems as though some fans are ticked off that the ny wash ot was replaced with the angels game people must realize that there are more baseball fans instead of hockey fans in the u s the baseball game was scheduled to air and advertisers money was paid so they can t skip the baseball game why don t you people chill out and enjoy whatever coverage you can get geoff filinuk
rec.sport.hockey	habs late quebec dominated habs for first periods and only roy kept this one from being rout although he did blow nd goal canadians showed up in third but nords were playing dump pull back most of the time hextall made some good saves but really this one was lost in first period when nords scored could have had plus another in nd canadians are dead meat they may take one or but this one is over tee it up jacques next time you might rest players forget about st place welcome to the adams division dennis
rec.sport.hockey	re upcoming tv schedule in article r af qve hsdndev harvard edu nhmas gauss med harvard edu mark shneyder writes hey guess what s coming to espn for a change a playoff which doesn t involve the pens not that there is anything wrong with that espn games thursday game pens at devils at gary thorne and bill clement saturday game caps at ny isles at tom mees and john davidson abc game sunday game pens at devils at gary thorne and bill clement only if you are in the eastern time zone pacific will get the kings vs calgary espn named its broadcast team on tuesday it paired tom mees play by play with john davidson analyst ppv mark nancy j spera imt division if i didn t know for a fact that p chevron petroleum technology co g elvis was working in a donut shop e p o box la habra ca o in beaver falls i d swear he was n tel njs chevron com driving this truck scotty baldwin s
rec.sport.hockey	re wc results april etxonss ufsa ericsson se staffan axelsson writes forwards richard zemlicka in the season playing for ehc freiburg germany benny i i i i benny reif email reif sun ruf uni freiburg de i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i disclaimer this text reflects my opinion i i i i i
rec.sport.hockey	re red wings goespel f hh unb ca patrick walker writes detroit s going to beat toronto in or less granted gilmour should get the hart trophy not lemieux just look at what gilmour did for toronto when you think of toronto who comes to mind gilmour andreychuk potvin ah did i mentio n gilmour when you think of the nhl who comes to mind gilmour gretzky mario ah did i mention mario if you said gretzky you haven t really been following along have you if you said gilmour you are a true maynard i don t even think the selection of the hart deserves serious discussion on this group it is a no brainer dvb
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl team captains in article uupcb freddy ersys edmonton ab ca steven kipling freddy ersys edmonton ab ca steven kipling writes quoting cire y trehguad to all cyt michael collingridge writes and while we are on the subject has a captain ever been traded resigned or been striped of his title during the season any other team captain trivia would be appreciated kelly kisio was the captain of the rangers when he left for san jose ali ali procrastination lemer but not a real green conjunction junction columbia university nyc dress that s cruel what s your function phoenix ctr columbia edu barenaked ladies schoolhouse rock be kind to animals hug a hockey player
rec.sport.hockey	re habs late in article apr vm mcgill ca ccdb ccdb musica mcgill ca writes quebec dominated habs for first periods and only roy kept this one from being rout although he did blow nd goal canadians showed up in third but nords were playing dump pull back most of the time do you notice that nobody on the team is willing to take charge a dominant defenceman would be nice too bad schneider got hurt he reminds me of chris chelios sometimes speaking of chelios i wonder if serge savard feels like a moron for making that trade i also wish we still had corson rob ramage on the ice is less useful than a gatorade bottle on the bench vincent damphousse has decided to take a vacation apparently i have no idea why demers is playing denis savard on the checking line with carbonneau savard is skating well and is one of the only dangerous canadiens in quebec s zone with the puck too bad nobody is in front most of the time do you also notice that in the defensive zone not a single nordique gets knocked down it s disgusting we also have lebeau getting pasted at centre ice by wolaninn with no reply from the team except to yell for a penalty dammit denis savard threw the best only montreal hit of the night when he knocked sundin off balance when denis savard is your team s enforcer there s big trouble someplace hextall made some good saves but really this one was lost in first period when nords scored could have had plus another in nd aside from that second goal roy did stand on his head the third period at least provided something to look forward to habs won the period imo and i guess somebody finally came along to smack them a couple of times in the second intermission to remind them that a game had started at hopefully they play that way at home roy made the saves we ll ignore that second goal so now it s up to the team dchhabra stpl ists ca p s to all those grant fuhr doubters buffalo boston nuff said and did somebody say dale hunter was a playoff choker i d rethink that position
rec.sport.hockey	bruins come on boston where the hell are you seven wins in a row and what choke i d much rather see the bruins in the wales conference finals vs pitt than buffalo or quebec if only because it would be more interesting not that buffalo or quebec can t put up a good fight but i d much more enjoy a pasteing of the bruins than the devils you have to feel for terrerri sp ah well maybe the devils will pull it out or maybe the pens will lose in the second round but if not i hope the bruins are there to meet them
rec.sport.hockey	re buffalo boston defense in article apr alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes in article apr ncsu edu delarocq eos ncsu edu derrell emery larocque writes tonight in boston the buffalo sabres blanked the boston bruins tonight in boston looks like boston can hang this season up because buffalo s home record is awesome this is great buffalo fans might get to see revenge for last year i m glad grant fuhr will never be as over confident after two wins as you are it takes four wins to defeat an opponent each tougher to obtain than the previous one buffalo is off to a good start fuhr is proving the fuhr bashers wrong but boston is an awfully good team gerald awesome home record or not you need to remember the th game last year at the aud i d like to see some playoff games since i m stuck in buffalo at ub but i think boston isn t giving up so easy mr bungle
rec.sport.hockey	whl playoff results monday april kamloops spokane kamloops wins western final matchup kamloops portland tuesday april no games necessary wednesday april no games necessary thursday april no games scheduled friday april regina swift current series kamloops portland series saturday april kamloops portland series sunday april swift current regina series whl playoff scoring leaders april player gp g a pts jamie black tacoma andy schneider swift current valeri bure spokane allan egeland tacoma dean mcammond swift current jason krywulak swift current cam danyluk medicine hat todd holt swift current tyler wright swift current mike mathers kamloops jeff friesen regina rick girard swift current whl playoff leading goaltenders april minimum minutes player mp ga so gaa scott langkow portland milan hnilicka swift current trevor robins brandon steve passmore kamloops mark dawkins red deer randy a coulman m sc aries laboratory research assistant department of computational science university of saskatchewan coulman cs usask ca saskatoon sk s n w
rec.sport.hockey	final regular season individual goalie stats i would appreciate it if someone could volunteer to verify the shots on goal and save percentage numbers for me so i can put these stats on the archive site contact me by mail if you want to volunteer here are the individual goalie stats as of wed apr cst these stats include games up to and including the sunday previous to the date listed above they have been verified against what is printed in my newspaper every tuesday they don t print shots and save percentage numbers so those are not verified these stats are available by mail every weekday and sometimes on weekends if i m in town and i can get late game results just send me a note if you would like to receive these stats by mail if you have any questions comments or suggestions let me know randy mp minutes played ga goals against so shutouts gaa goals against average w wins l losses t ties sog shots on goal sv save percentage mp ga so gaa w l t sog sv tm player was byron dafoe har corrie d alessio mtl frederick chabot bos mike bales tor felix potvin chi ed belfour bos john blue chi jim waite pit tom barrasso stl curtis joseph van kay whitmore buf dominik hasek bos andy moog cal jeff reese mtl patrick roy har mike lenarduzzi det vincent riendeau tor daren puppa det tim cheveldae cal mike vernon nyi glenn healy buf grant fuhr nyr john vanbiesbrouck was don beaupre min jon casey van kirk mclean nj chris terreri mtl andre racicot que stephane fiset phi tommy soderstrom pit ken wregget bos reggie lemelin que ron hextall nyi mark fitzpatrick win bob essensa win jim hrivnak min darcy wakaluk tb wendell young tb jc bergeron nj craig billington stl guy hebert was rick tabaracci buf tom draper nyr corey hirsch phi dominic roussel nyr mike richter nyi danny lorenz edm bill ranford la robb stauber la kelly hrudey que jacques cloutier har mario gosselin la rick knickle tb pat jablonski sj arturs irbe har sean burke edm ron tugnutt ott daniel berthiaume phi stephane beauregard ott peter sidorkiewicz cal andrei trefilov har frank pietrangelo win mike o neill sj wade flaherty sj jeff hackett sj brian hayward tor rick wamsley was olaf kolzig ott darrin madeley ott steve weeks la david goverde tb david littman randy a coulman m sc aries laboratory research assistant department of computational science university of saskatchewan coulman cs usask ca saskatoon sk s n w
rec.sport.hockey	final regular season team goalie stats i would appreciate it if someone could volunteer to verify the shots on goal and save percentage numbers for me so i can put these stats on the archive site contact me by mail if you want to volunteer here are the team goalie stats as of wed apr cst these stats include games up to and including the sunday previous to the date listed above they have been verified against what is printed in my newspaper every tuesday they don t print shots and save percentage numbers so those are not verified if you have any questions comments or suggestions let me know randy mp minutes played ga goals against so shutouts gaa goals against average w wins l losses t ties sog shots on goal sv save percentage mp ga so gaa w l t sog sv tm player chi ed belfour chi jim waite chi tor daren puppa tor felix potvin tor grant fuhr tor rick wamsley tor bos mike bales bos john blue bos andy moog bos reggie lemelin bos pit tom barrasso pit ken wregget pit stl curtis joseph stl guy hebert stl van kay whitmore van kirk mclean van det vincent riendeau det tim cheveldae det mtl frederick chabot mtl patrick roy mtl andre racicot mtl cal jeff reese cal mike vernon cal andrei trefilov cal was byron dafoe was rick tabaracci was don beaupre was jim hrivnak was olaf kolzig was min jon casey min darcy wakaluk min buf dominik hasek buf grant fuhr buf daren puppa buf tom draper buf nyi glenn healy nyi mark fitzpatrick nyi danny lorenz nyi que stephane fiset que ron hextall que jacques cloutier que nj chris terreri nj craig billington nj nyr john vanbiesbrouck nyr corey hirsch nyr mike richter nyr phi tommy soderstrom phi dominic roussel phi stephane beauregard phi win bob essensa win jim hrivnak win rick tabaracci win mike o neill win tb wendell young tb jc bergeron tb pat jablonski tb david littman tb edm bill ranford edm ron tugnutt edm la robb stauber la kelly hrudey la rick knickle la david goverde la har corrie d alessio har mike lenarduzzi har mario gosselin har sean burke har frank pietrangelo har ott daniel berthiaume ott peter sidorkiewicz ott darrin madeley ott steve weeks ott sj arturs irbe sj wade flaherty sj jeff hackett sj brian hayward sj randy a coulman m sc aries laboratory research assistant department of computational science university of saskatchewan coulman cs usask ca saskatoon sk s n w
rec.sport.hockey	re don cherry help me out here lmarsha cms cc wayne edu laurie marshall writes don got his nickname grapes but i m not sure don use to coach the boston bruins i don t know exactly when that was could someone fill me in on this info i think that the name grapes came because as coach for the bruins or in the minors he used to chew on grapes to keep from getting dehydrated during the games his dog blue may have been named cause he liked labatts beer anyone know about that
rec.sport.hockey	re grant fuhr leads sabres in apr newshub ists ca dchhabra stpl ists ca deepak chhabra writes in article apr wuecl wustl edu jca cec wustl edu joseph charles achkar writes buffalo is up is the series with boston and the reason grant fuhr fuhr is playoff hungry and he s proving once again why they call him money goaltender fuhr might not be one of the best goaltenders in the league anymore statistically at least but he s proving that he can make the big save at the right time the leafs should have kept fuhr and probably would have had a chance against powerhouse detroit but again where was andreychoke in game i applauded the sabres for making the deal to get fuhr specifically because i thought it would help them win at least one playoff series however i don t think the leafs can be faulted either there is nothing to say that felix won t be winning playoff series by himself in years to come i agree with joseph felix potvin is a great goalie besides i thought that the leafs could only protect goalie in the up coming expansion draft if so then it s better to get rid of one good goalie and get a good forward in return
rec.sport.hockey	re radio stations in messge on mon apr greanias texas mitre org steve greanias wrote i do not have cable and on the nights the caps don t play i would like to tune in other games does anyone have a list of the radio stations which broadcast the games for the nhl teams here are the ones i can remember offhand kdka am pittsburgh penguins wabc am new jersey devils wbbm am chicago blackhawks wjm am detroit redwings kmox am st louis blues are the flyers on that s all i can think of ted benjamin go cards go cavs tedb tyrell msfc nasa gov go blues go vols go browns a line sig can cramp one s art
rec.sport.hockey	re s in article r on p bigboote wpi edu ching bigwpi wpi edu the logistician writes i am in need of all of the players wearing in the nhl i know now only of one ray borque for the bruins any help would be greatly appreciated thanx pierre turgeon formely of the sabres and now of the isles wears at least he did in buffalo tom gwitt gwittt alleg edu
rec.sport.hockey	re let s go buffalo in article afpiknm wbli isj andrew cmu edu william k willis ww a andrew cmu edu says you know i never really appreciated them before looks like bob errey s ring really sparkles in that locker room and everyone else wants one too correct me if i m wrong though just through the net not through e mail i don t need rl s in my e mail but wasn t boston down vs buffalo last year boston lost and at home and won and in buffalo whoever wins game will advance simple as that robbie po pgh penguins we do what comes naturally patrick division semi s all time record you see now wait for the penguins devils season win streak possibility don t you see a penguins lead playoff win streak strong resemblance dg
rec.sport.hockey	pwter forsberg can some on e give me some stats on forsrg in the world championships if sao mail to ua freenet victoria bc ca tom moffat victoria b c canada
rec.sport.hockey	trivia question while watching the penguins devils game last night i saw the slash that barrasso took on the neck this brought to mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut by a skate i think he was a sabre but i m not positive does anyone remember know his name what has happened to him since what about the player whose skate cut the goalie name info has this ever happened before in a hockey game thanks carol go pens
rec.sport.hockey	re buffalo sabres in article r pc sa msuinfo cl msu edu vergolin euler lbs msu edu david vergolini writes ok buffalo fans i am a red wings fan but am amazed at how the sabres are beating up on the bruins is there any reason for this is it grant fuhr or mogilny and lafontaine i would like to hear from you since i do not know much about the sabres two words grant fuhr tom gwitt gwittt alleg edu
rec.sport.hockey	re trivia question in article apr sei cmu edu caj sei cmu edu carol jarosz writes while watching the penguins devils game last night i saw the slash that barrasso took on the neck this brought to mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut by a skate i think he was a sabre but i m not positive does anyone remember know his name what has happened to him since what about the player whose skate cut the goalie name info that was clint malarchuk that was a very dangerous accident he could he died right there on the ice however he has played since but i don t know where he is now i think he is still playing but i m not positive he was a sabre at the time i don t know who skated into him though has this ever happened before in a hockey game i remember a couple of seasons before the malarchuk incident borje salming of toronto fell down in the crease and someone skated into his face that took a lot of stiches to fix thanks carol go pens liam go toronto they d better start going soon
rec.sport.hockey	re octopus in detroit just a side note squid octopi made their way to the ice in buffalo i still don t understand why buffalo but maybe it s lucky btw they shovel them up from the ice here using the shovel used to scoop up the snow the zamboni leaves as it leaves the ice although blue did give some technical directions on its removal motioning with his stick valerie hammerl john sr would lift pat over the boards grab hammerl acsu buffalo edu his hand and start running around the outside v pwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu faster and faster i wanted to learn how to get that feeling and the only way was to learn how to skate p lafontaine
rec.sport.hockey	re let s go buffalo in article ltdi pinn km appserv eng sun com mre teal eng sun com mike eisler writes in article rap psuvm psu edu robbie po rap psuvm psu edu writes in article afpiknm wbli isj andrew cmu edu william k willis ww a andrew cmu edu says you know i never really appreciated them before looks like bob errey s ring really sparkles in that locker room and everyone else wants one too correct me if i m wrong though just through no fuhr s rings out sparkle errey s and doesn t bob have rings regardless they d have to sparkle from the pressbox errey s been out a couple games with a hip injury valerie hammerl john sr would lift pat over the boards grab hammerl acsu buffalo edu his hand and start running around the outside v pwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu faster and faster i wanted to learn how to get that feeling and the only way was to learn how to skate p lafontaine
rec.sport.hockey	stats does anyone have the player stats for games played up until april mauro
rec.sport.hockey	espn i don t know if anyone has posted a message like this yet but i m getting really sick of espn showing the last minute of a hockey game in which the score was just tied and then cutting out and saying sorry we can t show you this we have to show baseball tonight not even a game a friggin highlight show gee sure would have been nice to see the isles caps in overtime i live in pittsburgh yes i m a pens fan where hockey gets a lot of coverage i can only imagine how a caps fan residing in texas must feel
rec.sport.hockey	re leafs crushed again blues win flames back in article apr wuecl wustl edu jca cec wustl edu joseph charles achkar writes in article vzhivov cunews vzhivov alfred carleton ca vladimir zhivov writes the blues led by the best goalie in the nhl this season curtis joseph shut out the hawks the blues are playing like they did in clutch n grab shoot the puck out it s incredibly boring to watch but if it works finally a non blues fan agrees that joseph is a great goalie i think he should win the vezina this year or at least share it with barrasso who also has been shadowed by mario s amazing performance i too think that joseph has had a great year and should be considered for the vezina i think barrasso and joseph should be the two strongest candidates this year i don t believe all of the hype that roy belfour and now potvin receive for their goaltending i do think that they are great in the nets but i would rather have curtis tommy or fuhr in the nets during this years playoffs the big name tenders always seem to have a strong defense in front of them and the goaltenders get the most credit i would rather face shots a game than have to rely on joseph saving but if the goalie is going to face shots i would rather have joseph or barrasso facing them jay ps go quebec and i know that mclean and several others should be mentioned as candidates for this years vezina but i am partial to joseph and barrasso this season john w huber jr aka jay penguins stanley cup champions software engineering institute pirates nl east champions sei mastercraft the only boat for skiing
rec.sport.hockey	espn tell us about it geoff filinuk filinuk staff dccs upenn edu wrote this comes indirectly from al morgani who works in the studio for espn hockey some text deleted espn is under contractual obligation to show baseball and could not broadcast the ot of the hockey game next year espn will be introduced so baseball fans can watch baseball and hockey fans can watch hockey i hadn t heard about this new espn when is this new network supposed to start sounds great to me as long as my cable co offers it tom huot huot cray com
rec.sport.hockey	re trivia question in article apr sei cmu edu caj sei cmu edu carol jarosz writes while watching the penguins devils game last night i saw the slash that barrasso took on the neck this brought to mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut by a skate i think he was a sabre but i m not positive does anyone remember know his name what has happened to him since what about the player whose skate cut the goalie name info has this ever happened before in a hockey game it was clint malarchuk s neck cut by uwe krupp s skate i know it happened in buffalo but i can t tell you against whom krupp was defending an opposing attacker charging the net malarchuk became the fourth goalie behind hasek puppa and draper after suffering from obsessive compulsive disorder he s been playing in san diego for former sabre coach rick dudley krupp is now playing for the islanders after the lafontaine turgeon trade what do i win patrick ferrel v qldp ubvms cc buffalo edu i always said there was state university of new york at buffalo something fundamentally wrong with the universe aka jay walker wwivnet arthur dent
rec.sport.hockey	sabres bruins notes it was unlikely improbable for the bruins it was the stuff of nightmares for the sabres it was a taste of heaven for the first time since the sabres have won the first three games of a series last time was a three games to none victory in a best of five against the canadiens it takes a little more work this time the sabres seem ready to put in the extra work on the heels of a shutout one that took away boston s home ice advantage the sabres came back with a four to three overtime win it wasn t easy it wasn t always pretty it still worked john blue got the nod for boston supplanting andy moog as starting goaltender moog was pulled midway through game on tuesday buffalo started with a goal by mogilny his fourth of the playoffs on the powerplay with boston s don sweeney and gord roberts in the box lafontaine and hawerchuk had the assists goal number two was khmylev s first of the playoffs a pretty goal scored when the sabres stole the puck and passed to an open and waiting khmylev smehlik and hannan assisted determined not to be shut out boston tallied on a shot by ray bourque on the powerplay with colin patterson and bob sweeney both in the box period two was scoreless a split of penalties between the two clubs the third saw boston s smolinski get his first courtesy of oates buffalo resecured the lead two minutes later from former bruin bob sweeney khmylev and carney neely tied the game of the way through the third sending it into overtime last year overtime meant a bruin win last night it spelled sweet revenge as buffalo scored with ray bourque in the penalty box on a tip in by khmylev hawerchuk and lafontaine a minute into overtime both teams finished with shots power play conversions boston buffalo referee rob shick comments shick pocketed the whistle in the third allowing a lot of clutching and grabbing buffalo s penalty killing unit was fantastic again mogilny was checking granted he missed once and instead flung his body into the boards but checking like this is a novel idea to mogilny the crowd was unbelievable i don t think i ve ever heard a crowd that loud in the aud for a sabres game remember i was only five when they played for the cup i don t remember it and no one took me to the games doug bodger in a postgame interview noted that he tried to say something to hawerchuk but the crowd was too loud even though he was shouting it didn t seem to matter as most of the sabres and even muckler said it was great yuri khmylev didn t seem to realize that he was the game s third star and didn t skate out when his name was called sweeney and fuhr each were out before yuri made his appearance sans jersey when asked in an interview later whether he knew how big a goal that was he responed yes ok it was through an interpreter and he said more than that even more than the interpreter said but i digress the interviewer seemed to think just because he doesn t speak english he must not understand playoffs uh huh valerie hammerl john sr would lift pat over the boards grab hammerl acsu buffalo edu his hand and start running around the outside v pwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu faster and faster i wanted to learn how to get that feeling and the only way was to learn how to skate p lafontaine
rec.sport.hockey	re montreal versue quebec in article r p kj msuinfo cl msu edu vergolin euler lbs msu edu david vergolini writes did anyone see the montreal quebec game yesterday it was tight right down to the last second of the third period in the overtime roy and hextall played like they were gods ok so montreal won they deserved it after getting their first goal in overtime waved off because the puck was hit in with a high stick their second goal in overtime was also replayed but i could not tell if it was the montreal player who kicked it in the puck definitely was not directed in by a stick anyways montreal is back into the series dave vergolini michigan state university vergolin euler lbs msu edu the replay clearly showed that the winning goal for montreal went off the skate of the quebec defenceman who was checking kirk muller in front of hextall
rec.sport.hockey	re sharks jack feirerra was re sharks kingston fired gak wrs com richard stueven writes on the other hand i m hard pressed to think of any other real mistakes fereirra made imagine indeed but then again we have the benefit of hindsight well the jettison for youth fast strategy was his also in hindsight it didn t work all that well but i think it was more because it left the sharks on a tightrope without a net not that it was inherently flawed it was the injuries that caused us to fall let s say that in the view of the sharks upper management the attempt to trade kisio was a major factor in the decision to fire feirerra from all indications it wasn t the major factor but the last straw there were personality conflicts among shark management and disagreements over how personnel were going to be handled not just who was being traded vs kept but who was being sent to kc what ferriera did if rumors are right was not always what the folks behind the bench wanted or needed i m inclined to take exactly the opposite view they should have kept him he s obviously the luckiest man in hockey i think if they d kept ferriera they would have lost some of their other management staff depending on which sources you trust we might have lost grillo and lombardi and murdoch over the summer frankly i want to keep those three we may well ahve also lost kingston which of course is now a moot point the sharks have been building an organizational staff that is highly consensual and cooperative ferriera wanted to run things his way there were conflicts ferriera lost that says nothing about his skills or accomplishments at that level a lot is personality and politics i think he did some good things for the sharks but that he never fit in as a shark person i hope he succeeds beyond his wildest dreams down in anaheim too because it ll be good for hockey but i want the ducks to be doormats for a couple of years so the sharks succeeed first chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants a san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.hockey	re leafs v s wings i agree rob shick sucks big time he did the same thing last night s game between boston buffalo
rec.sport.hockey	re potvin his stick nothing wrong with what felix did the only problem was that he didn t dino hard enough next time felix aim for the ankles go leafs
rec.sport.hockey	re buffalo sabres quoting bill gregory to all bg hey i saw that game i thought the sabres looked better that you bg described it s boston that looked weak and unsure of themselves even bg if big if they bruins win the third game what s that going to bg prove they be lucky well now the sabres are up in games and its to bad that boston isn t putting up more of a fight as that could have been the best series of the playoffs i think boston will come out smoking in the next two games and that buffalo will end the series in game six back in buffalo and say how about those islanders they are up on the capitals and will probably win the series only to be clobbered by the penguins who should eliminate the devils in the next game i cannot see i m sad to say anyone beating the penguins this year again and they will take cup i m afraid well talk to ya later steve to find out a girl s faults praise her to her girl friends blue wave qwk v
rec.sport.hockey	re buffalo boston defense in article r tgh lfi hsdndev harvard edu nhmas gauss med harvard edu mark shneyder writes harry and his buttkisser milbury will never admit that they screwed up in a major way when they brought in one of the dumbest people in the business brian sutter sutter s playoff record as the head coach in st louis speaks for itself the blues really have a chance to advance to the second round this year grant fuhr has done this to a lot better coaches than brian sutter gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re hockey guest spots in article apr vm mcgill ca jbe jbe musicb mcgill ca writes manon rheaume was on with letterman in sept her english was so terrible that letterman took cheap shots at her although the shots were funny they were uncalled for well on the contrary i thought dave was rather taken with her and her accent h ockey is my passion gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re wjr in boston john girash writes for all those red wings fans in boston i thought i d letcha know that being desperate for news on the game i tried to get wjr am on my walkman and succeeded it was at night about pm reception got better as it got you can get wjr a long way away the problem is that because of those well known and beloved contractual obligations wjr will be doing tiger baseball instead of the wings playoff games for probably half the games the wings could play for this series i know tonight s game and i believe games and if necessay will be bumped ron and one of my major goals is to leave the next president a new set of things to worry about i m getting bored reading the same problems in the paper decade after decade i want people to have to deal with new problems president bill clinton
rec.sport.hockey	sabre fans yes yes i can see it now all those sabre fans finally taking their sabre sweaters out of the moth balls and proudly wearing them after years of playoff frustration and being up games to nil i guess it is a pretty good bet but there has not been a team that has come back from an deficit since could this be the year don t throw out the moth balls yet roy
rec.sport.hockey	re wings news and playoff thoughts i wrote i feel the jury is still out on tim cheveldae as a playoff goalie he was average in his first playoffs last year he had a horrible start but played great the last ten games after he was benched his gaa even with the horrible start was last year this year i think he s going to play very well he has to if detroit is going to win the cup he wasn t sharp in game but he didn t have to be i thought he looked pretty good yesterday charles hubbert writes great write up of the wings toronto series thus far i agree with just about everything that you said but chevy shouldn t have let the shot from the right point in first goal mikorov i think other than that the wings are looking good and chevy is holding his own not great but maybe chevy has let in or soft goals so far but they all didn t matter however his recent history has been inconsistant play but comes up big when it counts the score was i think when the goal you mentioned was scored in the third period when it looked like toronto was coming back chevy was exceptional i can see him as a barraso style playoff goalie inconsistant when there s nothing on the line but comes up big when really needed i guess we ll both find out ron and one of my major goals is to leave the next president a new set of things to worry about i m getting bored reading the same problems in the paper decade after decade i want people to have to deal with new problems president bill clinton
rec.sport.hockey	re hockey guest spots in article of rec sport hockey sclark epas utoronto ca susan clark asks hi guys i m looking to answe a bit of trivia what hockeplayers have appeared on major talk shows on tv i e letterman carson leno arsenio etc i e shows of a national nature include canadian equivalents if you can think of any this can include nhl olympic and world champion ship players i m pretty sure i ve seen gretzky and lemieux but i was wondering if there were any others i am not so sure about the celebrated players of the game but tod hartje who played for harvard in college and then went on to play in the ahl initially for moncton and currently for providence thanks to daryl turner for the update appeared on david letterman s show about two years ago now tod has the distinction of being the first american born player to go and play in the former soviet union this was arranged by jets gm mike smith while tod was playing in moncton at about the time all those european players were coming over to north america to play in the nhl tod spent a year playing in russia and played with or against some of the russian players who have just entered the nhl in the last two years he wrote a book on his experiences called behind the red line check it out and appeared on the letterman show to talk about them mike note i hope i have my facts straight it has been a year since i read tod s book i wanted to dig the book out to double check but realized i lent it to a friend and he hasn t returned the book yet just wait til i get a hold of him
rec.sport.hockey	re montreal versue quebec in article r p kj msuinfo cl msu edu vergolin euler lbs msu edu david vergolini wrote did anyone see the montreal quebec game yesterday it was tight right down to the last second of the third period in the overtime roy and hextall played like they were gods ok so montreal won they deserved it after getting their first goal in overtime waved off because the puck was hit in with a high stick their second goal in overtime was also replayed but i could not tell if it was the montreal player who kicked it in the puck definitely was not directed in by a stick anyways montreal is back into the series the overhead replay pretty clearly showed that it was the quebec defender who deflected the puck the re play officials did not take nearly as much time to make this call as they did for the first non goal so it seemed pretty non controversial i agree that it was a great game good to see roy and damphousse back into form hopefully the sign of good things to come paul valin tel bell northern research ltd email pavalin bnr ca p o box station c ottawa ontario canada k y h only my opinions
rec.sport.hockey	bowman needs credit during the first three games of the pens devils series i have been impressed time and time again by the pure talent of the pens jagr maceachern and barrasso have been especially fun to watch but one element of this team which goes unnoticed seems to be scotty bowman despite brooks lunatic comments and despite the devils line changing adantage in last night s game bowman has been able to keep his cool and keep the devils in the dark granted the hell dwellers had the pens bottled up for a while last night but bowman was eventually able to configure his line up to get the job done his ability to throw out new looks and strategies at a moments notice is incredible bowman seems to have a terrific ability of reading his players on an individual basis last night for instance he realized that the speed of jagr straka and maceachern was throwing the devils off balance as a result straka received many more shifts than average jagr played almost the entire game he was always on the puck and maceachern scored a goal while complementing jagr many times throughout the night his ability to commit to one player in crucial situations is commendable especially when a coach of such a talented team might simply rely on the overall talent to dominate and to bring about success while no one can replace the genius and optimism of badger bob johnson bowman in his own way has made himself a permanent though not clearly seen mark in pittsburgh
rec.sport.hockey	where s roger i really feel the need for a knowledgable hockey observer to explain this year s playoffs to me i mean the obviously superior toronto team with the best center and the best goalie in the league keeps losing what gives i stand by all the misstatements that i ve made vice president dan quayle to sam donaldson me too nick duncan duncan mprgate mpr ca
rec.sport.hockey	nhl playoff results for games played nhl playoff results for conference semi finals best of seven patrick adams norris smythe nj buf leads stl leads win pit leads bos chi van leads nyi leads mon tor la tied was que leads det leads cal quebec nordiques leads series montreal canadiens st period que sundin gusarov nd period mon muller damphousse bellows pp rd period none overtime mon damphousse bellows desjardins pp powerplay opportunities nordiques of canadiens of shots on goal nordiques canadiens quebec nordiques hextall shots saves montreal canadiens roy shots saves att pittsburgh penguins leads series new jersey devils st period njd guerin pit mceachern straka nd period njd holik s stevens rd period pit m lemieux murphy ramsey pit taglianetti loney tippett pit murphy francis tocchet pp njd semak zelepukin powerplay opportunities penguins of devils of shots on goal penguins devils pittsburgh penguins barrasso shots saves new jersey devils billington shots saves att boston bruins buffalo sabres leads series st period buf mogilny lafontaine hawerchuk pp buf khmylev smehlik hannan bos bourque oates donato pp nd period none rd period bos smolinski oates buf b sweeney khmylev carney bos neely oates shaw overtime buf khmylev hawerchuk lafontaine pp powerplay opportunities bruins of sabres of shots on goal bruins sabres boston bruins blue shots saves buffalo sabres fuhr shots saves att washington capitals new york islanders leads series st period nyi thomas was burridge may cavallini nd period was carpenter ridley bondra rd period was elynuik carpenter ridley nyi thomas turgeon king nyi turgeon thomas hogue overtime nyi ferraro hogue flatley powerplay opportunities capitals of islanders of shots on goal capitals islanders washington capitals tabaracci shots saves new york islanders healy shots saves att spike
rec.sport.hockey	re potvin and his stick in article ps sscl uwo ca ps sscl uwo ca writes dino getting shots in front of the net he should expect it this is playoff hockey where anything goes you lose one game in the regular season and it s not so bad you lose a game in the playoffs and it s a difficult thing to overcome i ve watched hockey and played it too for a number of years and i haven t seen one post season game where the forward in front of the net has not finished without any bruises on the back of his leg the leafs are not doing a good job in clearing the net and potvin has been forced to take matters into his own hands i remember when cicarelli used to play for the london knights ohl he always was a nuisance in front of the net and the goalies took exception to this he also complained in this morning s paper about what happened last night but to me it s a lot of bellyaching his team is up and he complains about being whacked i wonder what would happen if he tried to do the same thing in front of billy smith or a younger ron hextall seems dino would need two artifical legs dino should take it as part of the game and thank his lucky stars that he s in the playoffs and has a good chance to go the finals well i agree that if you re going to stand in front of the net that you should expect to get hit and hacked at in general you should expect to finish the game with some bruises however there is a fine line between hacking at a guy causing some pain and discomfort and blatantly attempting to injure another player felix potvin imo crossed that line on wednesday that two hander on ciccarelli was way out of line i lost a lot of respect for potvin because of that it showed an immaturity he did not slash at ciccarelli to simply try to remove him from the slot area a legal position for dino to be in instead he slashed in an attempt to injure it was out of shear frustration as a leaf supporter just a supporter i m not a leaf fan really i was very disappointed you re right in mentioning billy smith and ron hextall at least in his philly days they both crossed that same line at times and for that reason many fans and players disliked them that s why their names always comes up as examples when we talk about these issues let s hope that felix doesn t do that again i d hate to see anyone even dino although i admit i don t like him very much get seriously hurt from such careless but intentional use of the stick gary
rec.sport.hockey	re trivia question in article c y t bqn acsu buffalo edu v qldp ubvmsd cc buffalo edu a real kneebiter writes in article apr sei cmu edu caj sei cmu edu carol jarosz writes while watching the penguins devils game last night i saw the slash that barrasso took on the neck this brought to mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut by a skate i think he was a sabre but i m not positive does anyone remember know his name what has happened to him since what about the player whose skate cut the goalie name info has this ever happened before in a hockey game it was clint malarchuk s neck cut by uwe krupp s skate i know it happened in buffalo but i can t tell you against whom krupp was defending an opposing attacker charging the net it was not krupp s skate krupp was defending against steve tuttle of the blues they both sort of tripped and fell toward malarchuk and tuttle s skate came perilously close to cutting but actually just missed the jugular malarchuk immediately fell to the ice hands at his neck blood on the ice malarchuk became the fourth goalie behind hasek puppa and draper after suffering from obsessive compulsive disorder he s been playing in san diego for former sabre coach rick dudley he d been suffering from it for over a decade he just wasn t diagnosed for it until he didn t sleep for ten days and decided to have some alcohol to help him sleep unfortunately he d just been put on ulcer medicine a few days earlier it s amazing he lasted as long as he did ocd sufferers stop distinguishing the line between reality and imagination or fail to accept that something they ve checked is ok now for example an ocd sufferrer can wash his hands over and over and still think they re dirty he might check the oven ten times to be sure it s turned off he might see a movie about something and automatically assume the situation is the same for his own life malarchuk has dramatically decreased the medicine he takes but still needs it he went off it this past winter and had a bad ocd episode and i think was in the hospital for a couple days he felt it slowed his reflexes so he tried to go without in any event he is alive and well and living in san diego while playing with the gulls ihl krupp is now playing for the islanders after the lafontaine turgeon trade and tuttle is no longer with the blues but i don t know where he is possibly in the ihl but you d best ask a blues fan valerie hammerl john sr would lift pat over the boards grab hammerl acsu buffalo edu his hand and start running around the outside v pwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu faster and faster i wanted to learn how to get that feeling and the only way was to learn how to skate p lafontaine
rec.sport.hockey	oilers for sale here s one from the mill the oilers might move to hamilton where porklington can get a free deal given what labour relations and puck has been like it would be a sigh of relief this way w e can can both elements dave shariff yadallee b sc econ math u of alberta yadalle amisk cs ualberta ca god save the queen god bless us all remember jesus saves lives from eternal damnation newfoundland keep good old clyde vote liberal
rec.sport.hockey	re trivia question in article apr sei cmu edu caj sei cmu edu carol jarosz writes while watching the penguins devils game last night i saw the slash that barrasso took on the neck this brought to mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut by a skate i think he was a sabre but i m not positive does anyone remember know his name what has happened to him since what about the player whose skate cut the goalie name info has this ever happened before in a hockey game thanks carol go pens that would be clint malarchuck it was speculated at the time that the injury was so serious that had he been playing at the other end of the rink at the time he was playing in the same end as the ambulence is parked he never would have survived ditto if he were playing anything other than a league with an ambulance on standby if you ve seen video tape of the incident it is amazing how much blood there was it was literally spurting out all over the ice as clint grabbed his neck and watched the puddle in horror amazingly enough he made a full recovery and played again in the nhl he was getting on in years at the time of the incident anyway and didn t play for too long afterward some people speculated that he just couldn t get himself back together after the incident and i think he had a bunch of other personal problems dogging him afterward he did eventually get back to form and played another year or so after that and then i believe he retired anyone else carol boudreau a k a the x terminator boudreau athena mit edu go flames rock the kings
rec.sport.hockey	way to go ferraro the isles picked one hell of a time to get their first win all year after being down after periods the caps seemed to have the game in hand playing steady defense and getting great goaltending from tabaracci the isles power play philosophy continues to be dump and chase which except for boardaholics like flatley doesn t work against the caps i hope al realizes this they have too many talented finesse players so why not carry the puck in and set up if last night s game is any omen the isles could be on their way to that ole championship form coming from behind late in a game my advice to the caps is to pounce on those healy rebounds flatley showed alot of heart by playing the last period and overtime despite an almost swollen shut left eye injury suffered at the hands of dale hunter ray ferraro has arrived just in time for the playoffs showing the fiesty hustle that us islander fans remember from an italian from the past john tonelli it was tonelli who won a similar game against the pens in game on the playoffs the isles scored two late third period goals to send the game into ot tied at in ot tonelli scored the game winner to send the isles to the next round the isles have lacked this tenacity for years but perhaps its back it was good to see the coliseum packed just like the ole days good luck to the isles the rest of the way john scialdone scialdone nssdca gsfc nasa gov and the home of the brave jerry garcia bob weir vince welnick april opening day candlestick park
rec.sport.hockey	re wings will win in article vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy a graca writes gballent vancouver uvic ca greg ballentine writes lots of debate about the virtues of bryan murray vs pat quinn as a gm deleted randy graca seems to think murray is the best gm in the league i think quinn is one of several who are better plus his team quinn s has improved a much greater amount than detroit since he took over with them how do you figure both vancouver and detroit did the same thing last year they both won their division they had close to the same number of points they both went down in the first round of the playoffs before finally escaping in games and they both got knocked out in the second round by teams they should have been able to beat with less talent specifically if i remember correctly third place teams how does this make vancouver more improved further if i m not mistaken the wings had more points than vancouver at the end of this season albeit not many when quinn took over vancouver several years ago not last year they regularily missed the playoffs i can t recall if they missed the playoffs the year before his hiring but they probably did quinn has improved the team from non playoff calibre to a serious contender when murray took over in detroit the were about a team that was a contender to win the norris division and possibly even a stanley cup contender so quinn has improved his team more than murray has since taking over as a gm quinn is one example of a better gm than murray gregmeister
rec.sport.hockey	re habs win habs win in article apr vm mcgill ca jbe jbe musicb mcgill ca writes yahooooooooooooooooooooo what a game we finally beat those diques and in o t the habs dominated this game and especially in o t they finally started going to the net see what happens when you create some traffic muller deserves full marks what a player and damphousse finally started skating roy thankyouthankyouthankyou was excellent did you see that third period save on young and the defense was taking out quebec players in the zone anybody else wonder if hextall will feel like a dweeb when he finds out that the winning goal went in off his own d man s skate whatta suck although he is playing really well life doesn t get better than this sure it does on sunday when the b s are golfing and the habs are tied you ll see what i mean nick dchhabra stpl ists ca
rec.sport.hockey	re bowman needs credit in article fq vru wbna l pi andrew cmu edu matthew t keating mk andrew cmu edu writes during the first three games of the pens devils series i have been impressed time and time again by the pure talent of the pens jagr maceachern and barrasso have been especially fun to watch but one element of this team which goes unnoticed seems to be scotty bowman bowman is in the hockey hall of fame as a coach already and unlike gil stein he didn t get their by stacking the board of directors while no one can replace the genius and optimism of badger bob johnson bowman in his own way has made himself a permanent though not clearly seen mark in pittsburgh bowman is the genius johnson isn t bowman is a great coach johnson a very good one however bowman is really not a modern coach and patrick s solution of having him only run the team on game days and delegate most of the day to day responsibity to the assistants is a shrewd managerial decision on patrick s part gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re where are all the bruins fans in article rap psuvm psu edu rap psuvm psu edu robbie po writes i m just wondering where all the bruins fans are i mean they woofed it up with about posts during the regular season saying that their fave team was going to kick everyone s in the playoffs and win the stanley oh really i seem to remember this year s woofers consisting mainly of yourself and roger boston fans were relatively quiet cup while i see nothing wrong with a little ranting and raving i m just curious why all the boston faithful have stopped posting i mean i haven t even see just one little boston fan post cept for the bruins fans that aren t cocky i guess the concept of a fan who is not cocky is something you couldn t possible understand eh but i don t know i d sure like to see where all those bruins fans are at robbie po s streakers we do what comes naturally patrick division semi s pgh penguins you see now wait for the penguins devils stanley possibility don t you see a penguins lead cup champions strong resemblance dg nah i doubt you really would you re just being a provocative sob as usual with a large stick up your but of course i mean that in the nicest way and just how much bragging did you do wobbie on r s b c after umass beat your quakers btw congratulations should go to the sabres they are playing more diciplined and with more will to win they deserve it dan dan vicorp com
rec.sport.hockey	re leafs crushed again blues win flames back jca cec wustl edu joseph charles achkar writes in article vzhivov cunews vzhivov alfred carleton ca vladimir zhivov writes joseph shut out the hawks the blues are playing like they did in clutch n grab shoot the puck out it s incredibly boring to watch but if it works road i agree it s very boring if you re not a blues fan but the blues played two perfect road games not boring is right it is more likely to cause me to have a stroke i had to listen to game two on the blackhawk station and i don t think i could take another call of and joseph makes a spectacular saaaaaave now i m a blues fan but i don t want them to play like they played in game two sure the result was fine but the blues match up very well with the hawks so they really don t need to treat them like the flames we don t need a monday night miracle to have a chance to beat chicago the blues can do it on talent at least over the hawks rich h go blues a l l e z l e s b l u e s joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	re espn tell us about it in a previous article huot cray com tom huot says geoff filinuk filinuk staff dccs upenn edu wrote this comes indirectly from al morgani who works in the studio for espn hockey some text deleted espn is under contractual obligation to show baseball and could not broadcast the ot of the hockey game next year espn will be introduced so baseball fans can watch baseball and hockey fans can watch hockey i hadn t heard about this new espn when is this new network supposed to start sounds great to me as long as my cable co offers it the usa today says late this year the question is will hockey be moved to espn permenantly or will it be where they have a game of the week on espn and have a bunch of other games on espn mike cornell there are a great many people in the country today who mac po cwru edu through no fault of their own are sane monty python let s go flyers stanley cup in oh my brain hurts mr d p gumby
rec.sport.hockey	re pens fans reactions in article apr sei cmu edu sad sei cmu edu susan dart writes amongst penguins fans there seems to be an inner calm that i ve never experienced before this year with the pens the players and the fans have so much confidence in the team this year we re savoring every game and saving our energy for the stanley cup that s not inner calm it s boredom and it s being spoiled the arena s been as quiet as a church on many nights this year too many of us just take winning for granted it s been seemingly forever since the team lost and we ve forgotten what it s like to feel real excitement and surprise at victory while i m glad to have the pens doing so well in some ways it was a better high back when the pens beat the bruins two years ago and the rangers last year too much of a good thing is not always good for you rick
rec.sport.hockey	re lemieux s getting the hart jeez i hope not in article apr unbvm csd unb ca f hh unb ca patrick walker writes much mindless drivel deleted sorry to ramble as you can see i hate mario pat walker unb question to you canadian folk is this university of new brunswick a branch campus of the western business school seems like the same sort of rectal appendage belongs to both of them rick
rec.sport.hockey	re oilers for sale in article yadalle cab yadalle cs ualberta ca yadallee dave s writes here s one from the mill the oilers might move to hamilton where porklington can get a free deal the probability is that the oilers are not going anywhere pocklington has chosen this moment to make his last stand is because he is at the moment of maximum advantage the provincial government is months away from a provincial election it is the moment when he has maximum power to convince northlands to give him a better arena deal or a better purchase price and it is before the nhl s new collective agreement with the players which might involve some enhanced revenue sharing pocklington is many things stupid is not one of them he can dictate terms because other cities will pay his price if edmonton doesn t edmonton has already fucked up its international airport and surrendered supremacy to calgary and over the next few years edmonton is going to take a hard hit from government cutbacks it will screw itself beyond recogniton if it manages to find a way to lose its hockey team too because northlands wants to continue to use the oilers to subsidize horse racing however in this case about the long term financial viability of the oilers the fact is that pocklington is basically right regardless of who owns the team and it is right to provoke the crisis now before the team accumulates millions of dollars in losses or becomes habitually uncompetitive because of lack of money sather has done his job the oilers are poised to be competitive again very soon al strachan one of the most knowledgeble hockey writers in canada in a post mortem of the oilers season in the globe and mail recently agrees with me gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl alltime scoring leaders all time nhl leading goal scorers denotes active player gordie howe det hfd wayne gretzky edm la i wonder how many more years it will take gretz to beat this one mike
rec.sport.hockey	re espn if espn pisses you off call them they do respond to calls last night i called when they said they were cutting to baseball and we couldn t see the sudden death overtime for the buffalo game apparently they received enough calls so they waited for the overtime to finish before cutting away their phone number is susan dart
rec.sport.hockey	re wings news and playoff thoughts in article r u v prv msuinfo cl msu edu twork egr msu edu michael twork writes roots in detroit he would be a valuable asset to the wings and perhaps the rangers could get a zombo in return wake up and smell the norris rick zombo was traded to the blues for vince riendo sp last season mike sorry mike what defensemen would the wings be willing to give up for beezer
rec.sport.hockey	re sabres bruins in article lte tcinn vr appserv eng sun com mre teal eng sun com mike eisler writes i m not a buffalo fan but i could get on their bandwagon if they win welcome aboard and since i haven t seen this yet this year but all preceding years let me say t h i s c o u l d b t h e y e a r not
rec.sport.hockey	re trivia question in article apr sei cmu edu caj sei cmu edu carol jarosz writes while watching the penguins devils game last night i saw the slash that barrasso took on the neck this brought to mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut by a skate i think he was a sabre but i m not positive does anyone remember know his name clint malarchuk what has happened to him since assigned to san diego gulls at the being of the season i believe what about the player whose skate cut the goalie name info it was uwe krupp and a blues player though uwe s skate i beleive cut clint he has since be traded to the isles in the lafontaine deal has this ever happened before in a hockey game this is the only time i know of tom gwitt gwittt alleg edu go sabres
rec.sport.hockey	re wings will win gballent hudson uvic ca greg ballentine writes in article vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy a graca writes gballent vancouver uvic ca greg ballentine writes stuff deleted when quinn took over vancouver several years ago not last year they regularily missed the playoffs i can t recall if they missed the playoffs the year before his hiring but they probably did quinn has improved the team from non playoff calibre to a serious contender when murray took over in detroit the were about a team that was a contender to win the norris division and possibly even a stanley cup contender the last year before bryan murray took over the wings did not make the playoffs while they had been considered a possible contender when jacques demers first arrived in his last two years they were respectively embarrassed in the first round by chicago and then failed to make the playoffs at a time a might add when there were only five teams in the norris it s true that vancouver did not make the playoffs for many a year before quinn came but in those years the smythe division was a lot i mean a lot tougher division than the norris also known as the snorris division vancouver had to play edmonton and calgary both very legitimate stanley cup contenders eight times a year while detroit got to play such powerhouses as toronto and minnesota now edmonton is hardly even a force in the league and the smythe even has the mighty san jose sharks while over this same period of time in which vancouver was improving so was everybody in the norris except st louis detroit had to improve just to keep up with the competition in their division they had to improve a lot to get better than their competition in the norris bryan murray inherited a team with very little talent for really good players they had yzerman burr and probert and that was about it and no doubt some will dispute whether burr and probert were that good the rest were either very green rookies or washed up veterans the only reason they got as far as they did in the years before murray came was due to the coaching of demers who at least at first got every last ounce of effort possible out of his team then even his coaching began to degrade so quinn has improved his team more than murray has since taking over as a gm quinn is one example of a better gm than murray there are a number of reasons why detroit wasn t in as bad a shape standings wise when murray took over as vanc was when quinn took over some of which i outlined above but murray did not have any better personnel to work with at the outset than did quinn with the exception of yzerman and one player cannot alone make a team into a stanley cup contender as i m sure everyone reading this will agree we ll be able to see better which team is really the most improved when they face each other in the conference final assuming they don t get knocked out like last year gregmeister randy
rec.sport.hockey	sports broadcasting on fm i am curious to known if there are any professional sports teams whose games are regularly broadcast on an fm station the only one i am aware of is wysp in philadelphia who carries the eagles games if you respond to me i will summarize for the list bruce slutsky slutsky tesla njit edu
rec.sport.hockey	tv coverage nhl to blame the tv coverage of the playoffs is fucking ridicules overtime time games that are not shown what the hell kind of shit is this if that would have happened to the flyers if they were in the damn playoffs to begin with while i was watching i would have gone throught the roof however everybody is getting pissed off at espn but they are not the ones to blame they have prior contracts that they just can t simply break whenever they want to the n h l is to blame when they signed the deal with espn they had to know of this they had to know shit like this would happen since they wouldn t have complete priority the n h l should be feeling the heat that is being thrown at espn how can the n h l do this to its fans how dare they we are the ones that make the damn league exist and they can t even televise complete playoff games for us to watch they more i write about this the more pissed off i get we must let the n h l know that we expect a little better than this if anybody out there knows how to go about doing this let me and everybody else know well i had to get that off my chest and while i m at it mario is the michael jordan of hockey all that fucker has to do is fall on the ice and the closet guy to him gets at least last night in the rd game between nj and pitt he was being pushed while skating across the front of the goal while trying to get a shot off the guy on him was doing a good job so he got off a weak shot but then he decided to fall to the ice then the fucking ref van helloamend called the guy for holding they replayed the play and my roomate who is clueless about hockey wanted to know what the nj guy did to get a call because it was so fucking obvious the nj player had both hands on his stick and no he did not trip him it is simple mario gets touched he falls to the ice automatic but the thing that really pissed me off is pitt scored the rd or th goal i don t remember on the resulting pp and eventually won his diving calls makes a huge difference in the outcome of a game they gotta stop the damn holding and interference that is so fucking obvious that is not hockey it allows inferior players to bring down the level of the better players and allows inferior teams to beat better ones this has pissed me off for many years now and it has improved somewhat however during the playoffs and rd periods the damn refs must misplace their balls because they sure don t make any calls that show that they got any all agreeing or disagreeing replies are welcomed steve
rec.sport.hockey	re div and conf names in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes there are several problems with the way the game is being presented to the fans i feel that geographical names would enhance regional loyalties more than names honouring personages i think a compromise would work namely honouring personages in conference names and using geographical references in the divisional names although i still do not think the move will draw fans to the game imo it s a cosmetic change that bettman and the owners hope will have an effect and it doesn t say much for the mentality of anybody it works on either another thing that bothers me is the points system percentages as used in the other major sports are clearly more informative when i look at the nhl standings the first thing i have to do is make a quick calculation to account for games in hand which is almost always the case some will object to percentages claiming perhaps that it is an americanization of the sport surprise i agree totally the points system is fine if everybody at all times has played the same number of games since this is almost never the case winning percentage is the way to go i don t particularly care if it is an american thing either if it works dchhabra stpl ists ca
rec.sport.hockey	bleep bruins lose in o t bleep bleep bleep the bruins lost again in o t i can t stand it aside from frustrated ravings i must give buffalo credit they are making good on most of their scoring opportunities and are playing great defense boston players can t seem to get control of the puck anywhere near the buffalo net except for on rare occasions the buffalo defense is also doing an excellent job clearing away rebounds fuhr is playing great when the big save is needed but he s also getting plenty of help boston has been playing rather well better than would be indicated by the series score of but is lacking that extra drive in the earlier part of the game as a result boston keeps leaving the ice at the end of the st period goals down this must stop if boston is to have any hope of winning a single game the outlook for the bruin s advancement to the second round are quite bleak imho the bruins need to score first if they can do that they have an excellent chance of winning since they have outplayed the sabres in the nd and rd periods the scary thing is that i ll be going to grad school in buffalo next year i ll never cheer for the sabres you can t convert me mtm mike mosscrop die hard bruins fan dept of chemistry umass lowell mosscropm woods ulowell edu
rec.sport.hockey	re oilers for sale in article yadalle cab yadalle cs ualberta ca yadallee dave s writes here s one from the mill the oilers might move to hamilton where porklington can get a free deal given what labour relations and puck has been like it would be a sigh of relief i heard yesterday that pocklington was talking with folks at copps that afternoon yesterday valerie hammerl john sr would lift pat over the boards grab hammerl acsu buffalo edu his hand and start running around the outside v pwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu faster and faster i wanted to learn how to get that feeling and the only way was to learn how to skate p lafontaine
rec.sport.hockey	re sharks kingston fired in apr iscnvx lmsc lockheed com spiegel sgi msd lmsc lockheed com mark spiegel writes in article apr csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes mcgill hammond johan garpenlov would you really rather have those two instead of johan by your logic then you enjoy having falloon and ozolinsh on injured reserve falloon was hurt on a clean check he just fell poorly same with wilson i don t know about ozolinsh a judo coach would do more for the sharks injury situation than bob probert actually a judo ju jitsu coach could help add a really interesting wrinkle to anyone s game archer
rec.sport.hockey	re buffalo boston defense in article r tgh lfi hsdndev harvard edu nhmas gauss med harvard edu mark shneyder says the fat lady is about to hit the first note okay how about deficits the b s chances for a comeback are now less that s based on game playoff format actually that s based on the nhl s history of games the statstical odds of winning one straight game two straight games three straight games straight games the odds of the penguins winning straight games in the playoffs was of course this doesn t include weighted average but the pens beating the devils straight a weaker team along with beating the rangers straight a much stronger team has made the act balanced out that s about right for boston the odds of winning are probably closer to with weighted average since buffalo s record isn t as good and boston has a stronger team enough about my qba probabilities though it s just goes to prove anything is possible if you integrate that to debbie gibson who do you think gets the start in game three i hope it is going to be blue if the team can rally around him maybe moog can too moog gets about s out of for his performance from me i give blue starts fuhr has been too tough buffalo caught a hot goaltender just in time i mean after all buffalo is wins losses in their last harry sinden s appearance outside of b s dressing room after game was a pathetic site he said something really retarded to cover sutter s behind this game is not about winning or losing harry check the it s very frustrating to lose and you ve gotta say something actually it s not about winning or losing it is how you play the game but when the competition is magnified to this level of the people only care about who wins or loses schedule your team is in the playoffs and about to go on a long summer vacation on sunday morning i think buffalo will win in it s not like boston is getting blown away they lost ot games with a different bounce they could easily be up harry and his buttkisser milbury will never admit that they screwed up in a major way when they brought in one of the dumbest people in the business brian sutter sutter s playoff record as the head coach in st louis speaks for itself the blues really have a chance to advance to the second round this year good point here chicago s in deep trouble tonight the hawks have a bad past history of winning the division and losing early when they don t finish st they do okay robbie po s streakers we do what comes naturally patrick division semi s pgh penguins you see now wait for the penguins devils stanley possibility don t you see a penguins lead cup champions strong resemblance dg
rec.sport.hockey	re where are all the bruins fans in article apr vicorp com dan vicorp com dan gauthier says even see just one little boston fan post cept for the bruins fans that aren t cocky i guess the concept of a fan who is not cocky is something you couldn t possible understand eh my sig has nothing to do with cockiness what you put in your sig has nothing to do with your article as i learned back in the fall the hard way nah i doubt you really would you re just being a provocative sob as usual with a large stick up your but of course i mean that in the you mean butt don t you not but nicest way sure you do what and just how much bragging did you do wobbie on r s b c after umass beat your quakers two points one what does r s b c have to do with hockey secondly umass beat my quakers hello earth here are you responding we re not in the atlantic or whatever you wanna call it we re in the big now the a was too weak for my lady lions they had to go to a more challenging conference it didn t pay off as the big east showed them a thing or too but i still posted on a regular basis and tracked all the women s scores with reviews throughout the tournament it wasn t a reason to stop posting btw congratulations should go to the sabres they are playing more it s not over yet if anyone has a chance to come back in games i think boston can do it but i still see buffalo winning in diciplined and with more will to win they deserve it agreed they re playing tremendous hockey right now congatualtions on three straight buffalo it could very easily be boston but buffalo has come up tough and a little luck you never see a penalty in ot that doesn t have both sides involved in a playoff game never never never robbie po s streakers we do what comes naturally patrick division semi s pgh penguins you see now wait for the penguins devils stanley possibility don t you see a penguins lead cup champions strong resemblance dg
rec.sport.hockey	re espn in article apr sei cmu edu sad sei cmu edu susan dart writes if espn pisses you off call them they do respond to calls last night i called when they said they were cutting to baseball and we couldn t see the sudden death overtime for the buffalo game apparently they received enough calls so they waited for the overtime to finish before cutting away their phone number is susan dart well i think whenever espn covers the game they do a wonderful job but what i don t understand is that they cut the ot just show some stupid baseball news which is not important at all then i waited for the scores to comeon sportscenter but they talk about baseball basketball and football then they showed penguine highlight and went back to stupid basketball finally they showed a highlight of the ot goal but that was like sec i think they should give more attention to nhl during the playoffs then talking about boring basketball games i guess it is nhl s fault too for leaving espn hope things improve by next season cobra
rec.sport.hockey	ghost from sweeney s past wow this guy seems to be out to prove something to his old team boston which sweeney you ask well of course bob sweeney the one that boston let buffalo get a hold of they still have sweeneys which makes things slightly confusing game winner in ot in game and another big goal seconds after fuhr made point blank saves this is why grant has rings to put buffalo ahead in the rd yes neely countered a minute later but hadn t this course of buffalo going ahead after being tied and shutting down another few great scoring opportunities i think boston would have notched their first win of the series well the sabres haven t made it to the end of this series yet but i certainly feel they ve got boston right were they want them actually they ve got them in a position that neither buffalo nor boston felt that would come about one more astronomical game by fuhr a few more heroics by the rest of the team this is a team sport afterall and i think borque neely jouneau sp and company are gonna be swinging a new stick weather is perfect for golf season real soon i m not gonna waiger anything on this because i ve seen some really strange things happen in both pro and college hockey talking about golf was that a hockey swing golf swing or baseball swing that hawerchuck used in the last shot of the game that khmylev deflected in for the big one the whole ot all minute of it was a tesiment to buffalo s ability to really be persistent and grind it out in the end something they weren t necessarily in the regular season the sabres pushed hard and forced borque to blatently take down bodger in the opening seconds i don t normally like penalties being called in such ultra critical points but this was blatent finally the sabres won a faceoff they weren t that hot in this dept the rest of the game when lafontaine scooped at the puck times when hawerchuck took his shot quite a boomer but blue stopped this one he took a few steps over to get his own rebound and slapped at it again without setting it up i didn t realize it went in until the announcer started screaming they score they score the best was seeing lafontaine jumping up and down skating a little bit jumping some more and then skating over to brad may who he jumped on doug mckee mckee cs buffalo edu
rec.sport.hockey	re don cherry new pens annoucer in article c wiuy d cs cmu edu lli cs cmu edu lori iannamico writes don cherry announcing penguins games yeah and to quote pgh s goofy mayor i m the queen of sheba well your majesty couldn t you just picture it cherry starts doing his first post game interview with barrasso tommy gives him that little look like somebody crapped on his shoe and then proceeds to give don a tonsilectomy with his sher wood now that you could put on pay per view hope you had a good laugh george george j pandelios internet gjp sei cmu edu software engineering institute usenet sei gjp fifth avenue voice pittsburgh pa fax disclaimer these opinions are my own and do not reflect those of the software engineering institute its sponsors customers clients affiliates or carnegie mellon university in fact any resemblence of these opinions to any individual living or dead fictional or real is purely coincidental so there
rec.sport.hockey	re goalie masks in article c sqz eg acsu buffalo edu hammerl acsu buffalo edu valerie s hammerl writes and i ll give fuhr s new one an honourable mention although i haven t seen it closely yet it looked good from a distance this is the new buffalo one the second since he s been with the sabres i recall a price tag of over just for the paint job on that mask and a total price of almost ouch yeah it s the second one and i believe that price too i ve been trying to get a good look at it on the bruin sabre telecasts and wow does it ever look good whoever did that paint job knew what they were doing and given fuhr s play since he got it i bet the bruins are wishing he didn t have it
rec.sport.hockey	re trivia question caj sei cmu edu carol jarosz writes while watching the penguins devils game last night i saw the slash that barrasso took on the neck this brought to mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut by a skate i think he was a sabre but i m not positive does anyone remember know his name what has happened to him since what about the player whose skate cut the goalie name info has this ever happened before in a hockey game thanks carol go pens i remember reading an article in reader s digest many moons ago about a similar incident during a minor leaque game a player neck was cut when the opponent he was back checking tripped and his skakes flew up in this case the victim s mask proved a hinderance since his face was protected and so he didn t bother with the usually instinctive reaction to protect his face neck a quick thinking coach saved his life by applying direct pressure and using snow to contract the blood vessels from what i can remember bill scott wscott physics ubc ca go jets go down but not out
rec.sport.hockey	re hockey guest spots hi guys i m looking to answe a bit of trivia what hockeplayers have appeared on major talk shows on tv i e letterman carson leno arsenio etc i e shows of a national nature include canadian equivalents if you can think of any this can include nhl olympic and world champion ship players i m pretty sure i ve seen gretzky and lemieux but i was wondering if there were any others i saw messier and leetch shooting at a camera on letterman i could have been any show though since i watch none of those late night shows very regularly john santore philadelphia flyers in we break the surface tension with our wild kinetic dreams rush grand designs go philadelphia flyers john santore jsbh andrew cmu edu rush yes king crimson emerson lake and palmer marillion genesis w gabriel
rec.sport.hockey	re where s roger duncan nicholas duncan writes i really feel the need for a knowledgable hockey observer to explain this year s playoffs to me i mean the obviously superior toronto team with the best center and the best goalie in the league keeps losing what gives unfortunately roger is now over at r s baseball spewing his expertise i e being a dickhead i guess he is afraid of posting anything here because he knows what to expect john franjione department of chemical engineering university of colorado boulder franjion spot colorado edu
rec.sport.hockey	re don cherry color man for pens next year isn t he the guy who took shots at jagr and ulf in a recent sports illustrated i m not familiar with cherry s work and maybe he s known for sarcasm but i d have to wonder about him doing commentary for the pens bart
rec.sport.hockey	re trivia question in article c y xd dox acsu buffalo edu hammerl acsu buffalo edu valerie s hammerl writes and tuttle is no longer with the blues but i don t know where he is possibly in the ihl but you d best ask a blues fan steve tuttle was traded from the blues to tb in the before the start of this season along with pat jablonski for future considerations he played for milwaukee of the ihl then got traded from tb to que along with michel mongeau he s currently playing with halifax of the ahl a l l e z l e s b l u e s joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	ulf crushes valeri zelepukin that more or less says it i flicked the penguins game on briefly and saw ulf cross check valeri in the face i am wondering if don cherry is going to go off on this at all in coach s corner billc bill clare eastman kodak company internet clare bissun kodak com m c elmgrove road phone rochester new york any opinions expressed herein belong to me and not to my employer
rec.sport.hockey	re espn s lack of coverage in article apr philabs philips com jpc philabs philips com john p curcio writes the worst thing is that this is exactly what i did last year i had the rangers on msg and the two different games on scny and sca on at the same time yes i d rather have sc cover it just for the amount of coverage so this year you had a game on scny a game on sca a game on espn and if the rangers hadn t crashed and burned you would have had a game on msg what are you complaining about i seem to recall last year everyone complaining about sc coverage i even remember orioles games being shown in the dc area instead of hockey and what about when sc failed to show the conclusion of other games because its feature game was over sound familiar this year i m getting twice the coverage i can see all the caps games plus the games espn shows i think it s great that hockey is back on espn imho they re doing a great job especially considering the baseball contract they have to work around peter kester pkester mitre org
rec.sport.hockey	re potvin and his stick in article ps sscl uwo ca ps sscl uwo ca writes in article r fs fhc msuinfo cl msu edu hallg yangtze egr msu edu the terminator writes from hallg yangtze egr msu edu the terminator felix potvin deserves to have the sh kicked out of him if there is anyone that he should be hitting with his stick its his pussy defensemen who can t seem to move big dino ciccerelli lbs out from in front of the net obviously toronto has realized that they are overmatched by the wings and must rely on trying to antagonize the superior red wings with cheap shots i prefer to watch hockey than seeing shots of felix potvin slashing and spearing dino ciccerelli standing in front of the net he has every right to stand in front of the net just not in the crease yes he does but the goalie sure as hell doesn t want him there when i played roller hockey boy do i miss those days as a goalie i would scream at my defense to clear guys out of the slot i don t care if he s in the crease or not get him the hell away from me so i can see the ball yes roller hockey remember and if there was nobody around to clear the slot then i d do it myself by pushing the offending player hard i hate people in my way when i m the goalie and i am sure felix does too i should say that i didn t see the incident so if potvin really swung the stick big time then that s not right but he can move people out of the way he s a player on the ice too you know keith keller let s go rangers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs in this corner let s go quakers weighing in at almost every weight imaginable life and all that surrounds it blues traveler
rec.sport.hockey	where s the knowledgeable observer in franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione writes duncan nicholas duncan writes i really feel the need for a knowledgable hockey observer to explain this year s playoffs to me i mean the obviously superior toronto team with the best center and the best goalie in the league keeps losing what gives unfortunately roger is now over at r s baseball spewing his expertise i e being a dickhead i guess he is afraid of posting anything here because he knows what to expect it is indeed nice to have fans that are concerned about the dearth of disputatious dissertation linked to my hiatus have simply been too damned busy lately to keep you lads and lassies entertained you can be sure however that i will somehow manage to find time to woof if the leafs give just cause and let s all try to keep people s names especially mine out of the subject headers i for one neither seek nor enjoy such a cheap form of notoriety one thing you can be assured of however is this the leafs are the best of all the teams in the league that have allowed goals in games cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.hockey	re pens fans reactions richard j coyle gomer pitt edu wrote that s not inner calm it s boredom and it s being spoiled the arena s been as quiet as a church on many nights this year too many of us just take winning for granted it s been seemingly forever since the team lost and we ve forgotten what it s like to feel real excitement and surprise at victory at least last night there was some excitement the pens didn t have it wrapped up before the game was half over like the previous two games i m not sure if nj just rose up and played better or if the penguins just started to play down somewhat probably it was somewhere in between new jersey seemed much more aggressive last night in the pens end they did much more swarming around which at least kept an element of suspense in the game no question that billington helped make it more interesting also claude lemieux didn t help the cause any though with his ejection early in the game so who s going to start in the devils goal for the final game sunday sorry i couldn t help myself tom huot huot cray com
rec.sport.hockey	re bowman needs credit gerald olchowy golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca wrote bowman is the genius johnson isn t bowman is a great coach johnson a very good one however bowman is really not a modern coach and patrick s solution of having him only run the team on game days and delegate most of the day to day responsibity to the assistants is a shrewd managerial decision on patrick s part imho bowman is the perfect coach for this group of players at this time johnson was the perfect coach two years ago for his group of players i would say we have been very lucky here in pittsburgh that the order these coaches came in was this one excluding the unfortunate circumstances which brought about the change with the immense talent on the penguins roster this year a tougher bowman keeps the egos in check johnson on the other hand was able to inspire the younger inexperienced players to new heights both coaches have had different strengths both of which came at exactly the right time another person also mentioned that bowman is the perfect coach for this time since nobody can argue with his decisions how can you argue with the coach with the best record in hockey anyway playing for a great coach like that demands respect which also keeps the egos in check just a couple of ideas tom huot huot cray com
rec.sport.hockey	stats hello could someone tell me if and where i could find faceoff stats for the season and later on the i think its to early to get it now thanks a lot jp
rec.sport.hockey	re trivia question in article apr sei cmu edu caj sei cmu edu carol jarosz writes while watching the penguins devils game last night i saw the slash that barrasso took on the neck this brought to mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut by a skate i think he was a sabre but i m not positive does anyone remember know his name what has happened to him since what about the player whose skate cut the goalie name info has this ever happened before in a hockey game thanks carol go pens it was clint malarchuk whatever happened to him anyway barfly go sigh leafs cry
rec.sport.hockey	re goalie mask poll update now here this anyone voting for john blue for best goalie mask poll will be shot on site no questions asked but c mon it s a black mask with yellow paint along the opening how totally plain vanilla eeuu heh someone mentioned tommy soderstrom flyers for the besk mask poll too in the mentioned below part all he has is a plain white helmet with a big cage i found this pretty amusing john santore philadelphia flyers in we break the surface tension with our wild kinetic dreams rush grand designs go philadelphia flyers john santore jsbh andrew cmu edu rush yes king crimson emerson lake and palmer marillion genesis w gabriel
rec.sport.hockey	hockey equip recommendations hey man having spent the past season learning to skate and having played a couple of sessions of mock hockey i m ready to invest in hockey equipment particularly since i will be taking summer hockey lessons however i am completely and profoundly ignorant when it comes to hockey equipment i ve checked out local stores and looked at catalogs but i was hoping to solicit opinions suggestions before actually plunking down any money having played football in high school and college i at least have that equipment as a basis for comparison but for example what are the advantages disadvantages to different kinds of shoulder pads and pants girdles are there any notoriously bad or unsafe brands or styles etc so any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated tom menner i when you re swimming in the creek software engineering institute i and an eel bites your cheek carnegie mellon university i that s a moray pittsburgh pa i fabulous furry freak bros
rec.sport.hockey	re espn s lack of coverage pkester hooville mitre org peter kester writes jpc philabs philips com john p curcio writes the worst thing is that this is exactly what i did last year yes i d rather have sc cover it just for the amount of coverage so this year you had a game on scny a game on sca a game on espn and if the rangers hadn t crashed and burned you would have had a game on msg what are you complaining about the problem is that by no fault of espn ongoing games are not covered til the final horn sounds with two channels scny and sca late finishing games up to pacific time and overtimes elsewhere will kick in at the end of local coverage if scny is blocked by the mets there is still some hockey on sca scny plus with an espn the current situation would be alleviated gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	re sharks kingston fired in article apr csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes in article apr iscnvx lmsc lockheed com spiegel sgi msd lmsc lockheed com mark spiegel writes in article apr csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes i said gund will have to open his checkbook i didn t say give up any draft picks or promising talent if we could have gotten murphy for the m great but i agree the sharks shouldn t give up young talent or early round draft picks i listed chelios et al only to indicate the type of player i think the sharks need to pick up the rules on signing free agents less than years old puts a big restriction on what the sharks can pick up however i do believer they need to pick up some players who will add toughness to the team but you have to remember that you re unlikely to get any real quality free agents who do not require compensation the sharks tried with makarov who was probably the top of the class among non compensation free agents but even he probably wouldn t have helped too much don t expect to get top quality just some toughness i don t view makarov as a player who would add toughness size hopefully won t be much of a worry next year alexander cherbayev and michal sykora have agreed to multi year contracts and it appears that mike rathje will also sign soon all three are pretty big size alone isn t enough we all know how much fear kolstad struck in the eyes of opponents not well rathje and sykora are both highly touted prospects unlike kolstad and cherbayev was initially supposed to play for the russian wc team anybody know what happened there that means that he s likely to be good enough nelson you re confusing skill and toughness mcgill hammond johan garpenlov would you really rather have those two instead of johan by your logic then you enjoy having falloon and ozolinsh on injured reserve by your logic then you think that if the sharks had kept mcgill and hammond that you can guarantee that falloon and ozolinsh wouldn t have gotten hurt think again there was a chance that mcgill would have caused ozolinsh to get stuck at kc and as you know hammond is worthless and mcgill is almost worthless well wilson maybe but i don t think falloon and ozolinsh were really injured on cheapshots who said they were if they weren t then i don t see any justification that having mcgill and hammond around would prevent their injuries if the injuries of falloon and ozolinsh were purely accidental then what could mcgill and hammond have done to prevent them hey get off the mcgill hammond thing i m no fan of either my point is that last year the sharks had toughness that was missing this year this year we had more skill i m all for that but if your skill players keep getting beat up and injured they can t do you much good whether it s a cheap shot or not you can t let the other teams push you around the sharks simply got pushed around to much other teams knew this they knew they could aggressively check the sharks and not pay for it adding some players in the off season who will add some toughness to the team will help insure that next season other teams will be more hesistant to vigorously check our skill players or to take cheap shots it doesn t guarantee no injuries nothing does but it s something the sharks can do to reduce the number of injuries mark just say mark spiegel spiegel lmsc lockheed com cow palace k epicenter
rec.sport.hockey	re hockey guest spots two years ago mark messier appeared on david letterman the summer he signed wit h the rangers i remember he and mike gartner taking slapshots at the camera one finally was a bullseye and the screen went blank it was funny if you saw it i guess
rec.sport.hockey	re lemieux s getting the hart jeez i hope not in article apr unbvm csd unb ca f hh unb ca patrick walker writes who should get the hart mario jesus no it s bad enough for me just to utter the word without being extremely sick and pissed off they guy s a luber ten minutes now give me a f king break with this mario is the best player ever what did gretzky die i wish bobby clarke not that i condone violence but i ll make an exception for mario but if mario is going to complain about being hit someone should give him and scotty something real to complain about sorry to ramble as you can see i hate mario pat walker unb why don t you kill him beav well i dunnow eddie i might get in trouble here s a gun beav shoot him beav well ok eddie blam blam wally you re in trouble now beave
rec.sport.hockey	re ranger fans in article apr eagle wesleyan edu kwolfer eagle wesleyan edu writes as far as the stanley cup goes i think there s only one team that can test pittsburgh and that s detroit this would be the most entertaining and hard fought series mario is amazing kurt that is if mario makes it pat walker sounds like the type that would bring an ak to a game and take pot shots at mario stand still dam sunavbich hmff joseph stiehm
rec.sport.hockey	re espn in article fq vic wb rq d andrew cmu edu ch g andrew cmu edu chad nicholas hunter writes i live in pittsburgh yes i m a pens fan where hockey gets a lot of coverage i can only imagine how a caps fan residing in texas must feel or a caps fan residing in atlanta where they dont even tell the f cking playoff scores on the news go skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite go braves an effect on you mike patton faith no more go hornets go capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd a prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	re potvin and his stick so if potvin can pound on dino what happens when dino pounds on him if dino gets his legs slashed can he slash potvin in return this year at a um lssu hockey game a um player was called for a slash when he hit the goalie s glove with his stick is that slashing while hitting someone s ankles isn t how do the refs know what to call do the goalies get more liberties than other players brad
rec.sport.hockey	re hockey guest spots sclark epas utoronto ca susan clark writes i m looking to answer a bit of trivia what hockeplayers have appeared on major talk shows on tv examples deleted i m pretty sure i ve seen gretzky and lemieux but i was wondering if there were any others michael j fox was on letterman about a year ago or two during the playoffs as a celebrity hockey player for the bruins while he s not exactly a nhler he did mention that the bruins wanted to break ulfie s legs or something like that in response to the neely incident it was quite amusing as one of the few letterman viewers who actually knew what he was talking about anybody know who the pens celebrity hockey player is michael douglas aka michael keaton joseph stiehm
rec.sport.hockey	re trivia question what sadist brought up this vein about malarchuk when i saw what happened i wanted to throw up and at the same time i was devastated since i thought that malarchuk wouldn t survive btw i believe he picked up an alcohol problem after before the incident to radically change the subject the caps must be having nightmares about the isles in overtime in the playoffs have they ever beaten the islanders in a playoff ot game this is lunacy the caps are such a sorry team in the playoffs they consistently choke against opponents who they should be beating losing two ot games in a row is not coincidence it s evidence of the choke factor keith keller let s go rangers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs in this corner let s go quakers weighing in at almost every weight imaginable life and all that surrounds it blues traveler
rec.sport.hockey	re where s roger in article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione writes unfortunately roger is now over at r s baseball spewing his expertise i e being a dickhead i guess he is afraid of posting anything here because he knows what to expect john franjione department of chemical engineering university of colorado boulder franjion spot colorado edu hey we could start a new game on the net it s called where s roger it s similiar to where s waldo but instead of finding waldo in a picture of people we try to find roger in a newsgroup on the net i predict that he ll be in r s basketball pro next laurie marshall wayne state university detroit michigan go wings
rec.sport.hockey	re tv coverage nhl to blame in article apr ns cc lehigh edu sjg ns cc lehigh edu steven jay gibble writes mario is the michael jordan of hockey all that fucker has to do is fall on the ice and the closet guy to him gets at least last night in the rd game between nj and pitt he was being pushed while skating across the front of the goal while trying to get a shot off the guy on him was doing a good job so he got off a weak shot but then he decided to fall to the ice then the fucking ref van helloamend called the guy for holding they replayed the play and my roomate who is clueless about hockey wanted to know what the nj guy did to get a call because it was so fucking obvious the nj player had both hands on his stick and no he did not trip him it is simple mario gets touched he falls to the ice automatic but the thing that really pissed me off is pitt scored the rd or th goal i don t remember on the resulting pp and eventually won his diving calls makes a huge difference in the outcome of a game all agreeing or disagreeing replies are welcomed steve we must have been watching two different games the devil had one hand on mario s elbow and pulling the elbow caused mario to fall so the call was appropriate using clueless people to substantiate your claims doesn t give me a lot of confidence in your call either next time consider getting a second opinion from a clueful observer or maybe all those available disagreed joseph stiehm
rec.sport.hockey	re ranger fans in article apr eagle wesleyan edu kwolfer eagle wesleyan edu writes i for one am happy about the ranger s hiring of keenan it s too bad that they i agree that keenan is an excellent choice did you see mike lupica s column in sunday s news my sentiments exactly i think he just may be the one to instill some hunger and fire into their hearts next season either that or he s going to be kicking alot of butt reading through most of these hockey news i don t see many ranger fans writing i m here but am new to this group and have been keeping fairly quiet you know doing the lurking thing i don t have a sense how many rangers fans there are on the list either i am a die hard ranger fan i guess i have to be i sat in the garden throughout the penguins led by mario s goals decimation of them on but am sick at the abundance of talent that has been totally untapped and the lack of heart displayed this season i have some final questions about the way the team was handled in that last dreadful stretch knowing they needed offensive help from the blueline why didn t we see mike hurlbut who played pretty well when he was called up when leetch first went down hurlbut was injured for quite a while i m not sure but i think he may have recovered in time for the playoff run and if so like you question why he wasn t used why is joe kocur playing every night he is not bob probert who is tough but also can play i believe kocur was used in many instances for his intimidation factor granted he seemed to get an awful lot of ice time for that reason alone but you have to realize that when a team is not doing any real physical intimidation i d like to have a nickel for every time j d said they ve got to take the body more you ve got to at least have some illusions how come paul broten is relegated to street clothes for the end of the season at least he plays with some heart and character draws penalties and plays when he s on the ice was he in the doghouse for some reason i agree and i don t know joe cirella enough said sorry i don t agree with you here i think joey c did a good job filling in when he was asked to i can t imagine that it s easy going from near ice time to being a full timer i don t seem to remember him turning the puck over at the blue line too much or failing to clear the zone he worked hard and at least didn t make any rookie mistakes as he said himself in an interview he can only give what he has and he did ranger fans may be suffering but we re some of the most loyal unlike islander fans who only show up when the team wins absolutely i think attendance at the garden was better on the last day of the season than any average night for the islanders fought series mario is amazing the man is awesome in a way i m enjoying the playoffs more now that the rangers aren t in them i can really appreciate all the glory mario is getting without hating him because he s on the opposing team he deserves it all as far as i m concerned mary mary blumenstock mblumens itsmail hamilton edu hamilton college clinton n y go rangers next year
rec.sport.hockey	re tv coverage nhl to blame sjg ns cc lehigh edu steven jay gibble writes the tv coverage of the playoffs is fucking ridicules overtime time games that are not shown what the hell kind of shit is this if that would have happened to the flyers if they were in the damn playoffs to begin with while i was watching i would have gone throught the roof for those of you who read tv guide there s an article in next week s sportsview concerning the nhl and major network broadcasting pretty interesting jennifer
rec.sport.hockey	re where s the knowledgeable observer maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes one thing you can be assured of however is this the leafs are the best of all the teams in the league that have allowed goals in games cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time roger you should check your facts before posting the kings have conceded goals in games jon
rec.sport.hockey	re ulf and all drozinst db erau edu drozinski tim writes as if an aluminum stick being taken to ulf s head is gonna solve the problem with violence in the sport of hockey how the hell can you say the guy is a goon and justify it with your back assward mentality saying that hurting a player will solve anyone s problems is asinine new rules and a new referee system need to be instituted right now too many of the real goons get away with too much because the ref is watching the play or supposed to be i ve seen koharski and van hellemond to name a few with their heads up their asses on a few calls rather than keeping an eye on the goofballs behind the play even if the linesmen were able to call all penalties it would be an improvement unfortunately that is the way the league is heading you can t fight so the only way to retaliate against someone is with a cheap shot when the ref isn t looking ulf has brought this to a high level players stuck in the past like neely who prefer fights to cheap shots are at a disadvantage in the new system lets face it a cheap shot like high sticking is a very effective method it is easier to hide from the refs has a better chance of causing injury and you can draw people into fights that way i don t like it but that s the way the league is going by the way there was a rather good hit by ulf in the last penguin devil game managed to hit the nj player in the face with a stick must have been a legal hit after all ulf is a clean player and is allowed to do things like that
rec.sport.hockey	oiler s rumour team moving press conference next week i heard a story on the local sports news broadcast in edmonton oiler owner peter pocklington will be holding a press conference next week while the exact details are not known it is believed to concern the oiler s future rumour has it that pocklington signed a tentative lease arrangement with copps collesium in hamilton during the press conference pocklington may announce the deal it is quite possible that the deal may simply be a way to force edmonton northlands to renegotiate the oiler lease on the stadium northlands has offered to buy the oilers for million earlier but the offer was rejected immediately by pocklington as for me my opinion is divided edmonton has been fairly supportive of the oilers even though they re a small market team they had many sellouts in the s even with the problems that the team had this year they still brought in more fans than many teams in larger cities did on the other hand if the team does move there is no place more deserving than hamilton of course how would that affect the grand realignment scheme of bettman
rec.sport.hockey	nhl summary parse results for games played tue april ny islanders washington first period ny islanders turgeon king thomas second period washington hunter johansson miller ny islanders turgeon thomas vaske washington hunter johansson carpenter pp third period ny islanders hogue unassisted washington khristich cavallini bondra ny islanders ferraro flatley hogue washington hunter johansson khristich pp first overtime no scoring second overtime ny islanders mullen ferraro flatley ny islanders power play scorer g a pts ferraro flatley hogue king mullen thomas turgeon vaske washington power play scorer g a pts bondra carpenter cavallini hunter johansson khristich miller montreal quebec first period quebec leschyshyn kamensky sakic pp quebec young lapointe quebec young lapointe duchesne second period no scoring third period montreal bellows odelein quebec lapointe ricci en quebec power play special goals pp en total scorer g a pts duchesne kamensky lapointe leschyshyn ricci sakic young montreal power play scorer g a pts bellows odelein new jersey pittsburgh first period pittsburgh mceachern francis taglianetti pittsburgh lemieux samuelsson barrasso sh second period pittsburgh tocchet stevens samuelsson pittsburgh jagr francis ramsey pittsburgh stevens francis murphy pp pittsburgh mceachern daniels mullen third period pittsburgh mullen francis barrasso pittsburgh power play special goals pp sh total scorer g a pts barrasso daniels francis jagr lemieux mceachern mullen murphy ramsey samuelsson stevens taglianetti tocchet new jersey power play no scoring buffalo boston first period buffalo presley unassisted sh buffalo wood moller sweeney pp second period buffalo mogilny lafontaine third period buffalo hawerchuk carney smehlik pp buffalo power play special goals pp sh total scorer g a pts carney hawerchuk lafontaine mogilny moller presley smehlik sweeney wood boston power play no scoring
rec.sport.hockey	re wc results april in article apr ericsson se etxonss ufsa ericsson se staffan axelsson writes ok here is my try the czech republic goaltenders petr briza finland somewhere right lukko finland look at the colors of his mask defense leo gudas ex jypht finland now in germany excellent defenseman drahomir kadlec hifk finland jiri kucera tappara finland tomas kapusta hpk finland otakar janecky finland jokerit finland radek toupal hpk finland jiri dolezal jypht finland no new contract jypht owns his player rights all of these czechs kadlec dolezal not anymore are very good hockey players it is a big surprise that hlinka selected dolezal dole had a bad season in jypht and that s why they didn t make a new contract the other czech we had jiri jonak got fired also there are lots of czechs playing in finland darius rusnak igor liba sejba svoboda
rec.sport.hockey	german audience is lunatic i watched the game germany czechs in wc today and i was astonished about the behaviour of the german audience the german team got a few penalties in the last period and the crowd went grazy they threw coins extra pucks and other trash into the rink is that stupid or what i guess the canadian referee one of the isostar bros gave the german team a penalty for that but it didn t help much i guess the germans just are proud over their nazi kill em all everyone but us germans sucks attitude they just seem to have that kind of attitude in every possible sport remember the european champs in stockholm in soccer it really pisses me off i do not mean that every single german has this attitude that sucks but most of them seem to do jokke kylmaoja golf phoenix oulu fi
rec.sport.hockey	a few words of advice to the stars hater i have some advice for you and some thoughts about your hatred of the minnesota north stars a real team like toronto would not be moved you are right just eliminated from the playoffs first round why stay in minnesota when you can go to a college in western ontario and actually take classes on map reading and the artistry of bsing specifically set up for just you why should anyone love the stars when hating the leafs is so much better oh i m sorry well maybe you can t understand my big words next time i ll limit my vocabulary to words like get real team now and do not waste our time respond to this article i love to laugh at your humor even though it it unintentional i got a big kick out of go leafs go go where home i think delarocq eos ncsu edu afc east division champions and afc conference champions squished the fish monday night football november squished the trash talking fish afc championship january if you are a buffalo bills fan email me at delarocq eos ncsu edu so we can talk all about the games insight etc if you are a packers fan let me know i am interested in any news out of green bay
rec.sport.hockey	bruins could anyone post the game summary for the sabres bruins game
rec.sport.hockey	re espn up yours in article apr wkuvx bitnet kozloce wkuvx bitnet writes jesus christ the score is now the pens are beating the shit out of the devils who gave up in the middle of the nd period espn does something smart the announcer states well folks this game is getting out of hand lets go to the islander capitals game i celebrate as i was actually making progress in my cs homework because i was so bored by the scheduled game i tear down and throw on my jersey hunter scores i go ape shit cause this is the first caps game i ve been able to watch all season and what does espn do they go back to the blowout that nj hasn t a chance in hell of winning the period ends and the sportscaster capitols just tied it up yes oops excuse me goes into his penguin worship mode dont freak pens fans they are worthy of this i m so glad we wont have to play them as much next year and here comes the rd period what its the blowout again oh they were just waiting for the cap isles to get out of intermission good they ve put a close game back on wait whats this shit they re showing the blowout again aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaauuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugggggggggggggggg oh guess what the score is now penguins switch games you holy shit they re changing games its about goddamned time lets see if they ll stay later i think this proves by point the caps game goes into overtime but due to contractual obligations they have to switch to the fucking baseball sorry for my language but im pissed what the hell were they going to do if their scheduled game went into overtime espn get your head out of your ass now i know there are a lot first of all i think when espn covers the game they do a wonderful job but last night i felt the same way i really hate watching devils pens game everyone knows that devils are going to get their ass kicked why even bother showing them i was so bored and these espn people don t seem to have any brain after the sundays and last night games they are still going to show devils pens on thu and sun what the hell are they thinking about i think if they keep it up like this nhl will never get a major network contract i d rather see caps isls game which is more exciting now i just hope all baseball games are rained out on espn so atleast we can get diffrent hockey games experience is what makes a person make new mistakes instead of old one e mail cobra chopin udel edu
rec.sport.hockey	re s in article r on p bigboote wpi edu ching bigwpi wpi edu the logistician writes i am in need of all of the players wearing in the nhl i know now only of one ray borque for the bruins any help would be greatly appreciated thanx the logistician reigns supreme go blue go tigers go pistons go lions go red wings ching wpi wpi edu pierre turgeon of the islanders mike
rec.sport.hockey	re abc coverage in article bu edu icop csa bu edu antonio pera writes i loved the abc coverage the production was excellent the appearance antonio you weren t alone abc ratings were very good i was schocked to hear that abc s telecast was the fifth most watched sporting event over the weekend national rating came out to a very respectable top nielsen markets were at in boston the game scored lower at but it had some competion from local sports teams quite frankly i expected abc s ratings to be under but i m happy to be proven wrong well well sometimes it pays off clicking away on your cable tv remote control and if you happen to be a hockey fan you could just stumble upon a playoff hockey game espn picked up detroit toronto game on monday night because the only night game in mlb was being rained out in chicago you have to give espn credit for switching to detroit s fox coverage and having bill clement at a pittsburgh s tv station wate for intermission analysis maybe espn people were giddy over perliminary over night abc ratings for sunday s telecast and thought it was a good idea to feature the norris division showdown rather than a monster truck competion good move espn ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	re espn up yours various justifiable rantings on espn coverage by several deleted the only way to change espn s thinking if it is even possible is to complain to them directly anyone know there telephone in bristol ct i do find it hard to believe that espn doesn t think viewers will simply change the channel from a boring game i know i did and then when they didn t show the nyi wash overtime s i was livid if i wanted to watch baseball i could have turned on the phillies padres extra inning game instead i went to bed angry i boycotted espn s morning sportscenter today i was still so incensed my wife says i shouldn t go to bed angry but last nite grrrrrrr tim mavor i am known by many names college of marine studies some call me tim univ of delaware newark de you know much that is hidden o tim tmavor pandora cms udel edu monty python and the holy grail
rec.sport.hockey	info world hockey championships does anyone have any information about the world hockey championships and specifically about the us team game summaries and or stats would be greatly appreciated usa today reported that the us beat the czech republic but that was the limit of the story thanks laura
rec.sport.hockey	re abc coverage in article blue cis pitt edu shah pitt edu ravindra s shah writes exactly that is my biggest complaint about the coverage so far follow that damn puck if espn abc is going to stick with one sided pens devils series and it looks like they will continue with it on thursday night i d rather watch pretty women in the stands than non action on the ice where a slow aging nj team being taken out to lunch by a dynamic pens squad ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	re espn sucks ot or baseball guess which in article c tc aty ccu umanitoba ca umturne ccu umanitoba ca daryl turner writes showing a meaningless relatively baseball game over the overtime of game that was tied up with less than seconds left on the clock gimme a break where does espn get these brilliant decisions from it s called contractual obligations with major league baseball i would ve liked to see the ot of the isles caps game but i understand where espn is coming from espn is committed to a single telecast a night and everything after that is a bonus ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	re trivia the habs in article c ti c sy news cso uiuc edu caine uxa cso uiuc edu lord vader writes ok i m sure that this has been asked s of times before but i have wondered since i heard it where the hell did the nickname of the habs come from for the montreal canadiens thanks in advance caine schneider the answer is in the faq for this group nough said laurie marshall wayne state university detroit michigan go wings
rec.sport.hockey	re schedule in article lt dl inn u appserv eng sun com mre teal eng sun com mike eisler writes but only in ny nj philadelphia and chicago everywhere else the only reason sportschannel was available was for local baseball broadcasts and local baseball pre empted the nhl playoffs thus far into this good point not only baseball but local nba basketball games took precedence over any sca s nhl playoff coverage ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	re red wings goespel in article apr wuecl wustl edu mvs cec wustl edu michael virata sy writes don t forget paul ysebaert ex devil he s a good team player and dino ciccarelli and ray sheppard and so on and so on laurie marshall wayne state university detroit michigan go wings
rec.sport.hockey	re wings will win in article ragraca vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy a graca writes it s true that vancouver did not make the playoffs for many a year before quinn came but in those years the smythe division was a lot i mean a lot tougher division than the norris also known as the snorris division vancouver had to play edmonton and calgary both very legitimate stanley cup contenders eight times a year while detroit got to play such powerhouses as toronto and minnesota now edmonton is hardly even a force in the league and the smythe even has the mighty san jose sharks while them thar s fighting words hardly a force geez miss the playoffs once in years and even after making the final four times in the last five years and everyone thinks its doomsville over this same period of time in which vancouver was improving so was everybody in the norris except st louis detroit had to improve just to keep up with the competition in their division they had to improve a lot to get better than their competition in the norris bryan murray inherited a team with very little talent for really good players they had yzerman burr and probert and that was about it and no doubt some will dispute whether burr and probert were that good the rest were either very green rookies or washed up veterans the only reason they got as far as they did in the years before murray came was due to the coaching of demers who at least at first got every last ounce of effort possible out of his team then even his coaching began to degrade fedorov primeau kozlov lidstrom sillinger konstantinov drake kennedy racine and cheveldae were already in the pipeline due to devellano murray inherited these guys in addition to yzerman probert carson chiasson etc there are a number of reasons why detroit wasn t in as bad a shape standings wise when murray took over as vanc was when quinn took over some of which i outlined above but murray did not have any better personnel to work with at the outset than did quinn with the exception of yzerman and one player cannot alone make a team into a stanley cup contender as i m sure everyone reading this will agree no quinn had far less murray took over detroit at a time to take advantage of all of devellano s good drafting if devellano had not given in to demers request to make the oates trade he might still be gm gerald
rec.sport.hockey	bruins on april mckee cs buffalo edu douglas mckee wrote m were doomed to th in the division i m still not convinced the m sabres will win this series i ve lived in buffalo all my life and m these last years have been playoff hell but i m just sitting m back crossing my fingers and hoping the offense can keep scoring have no fear doug the bruins are toast statistically only teams in all the stanley cup series ever played have come back to win and it couldn t have happened to a nicer team with all the crowing from boston fans i ve had to endure over the last month take heart bruins fans at least you finished first in the adams sinister chuckle jack laugh and the world thinks you re an idiot rosereader p entered at rose rosemail rosenet usenet gateway rose media
rec.sport.hockey	bruins on april wuziyun suned cs yale edu you wanna know wrote w w see the providence bruins lost the first two games at home and came back to w tie the series on the road there may be hope for the bruins yet toast they re toast and i know how much you want me to eat these words but it ain t gonna happen are the golf courses in the boston area in playable condition yet jack acid consumes times its weight in life rosereader p entered at rose rosemail rosenet usenet gateway rose media
rec.sport.hockey	habs win habs win on april jbe jbe musicb mcgill ca wrote j j yahooooooooooooooooooooo j j what a game we finally beat those diques and in o t j the habs dominated this game and especially in o t you realize that we dominated game also and should be ahead in this series j glorieux were plagued by bad luck the puck wouldn t bounce their j way but in o t they got their lucky break the winning goal j went off gusarov s skate thank you lord and it s about time we hit posts in this overtime and post in game s overtime let s hope that we start getting some luck for a change he played well in this game but roy s inconsistency still makes me nervous otherwise i d say we re going to win this series no sweat it s all up to patrick roy to provide consistent goaltending j and those damn bruins lost in o t their down congratulations j buffalo j j life doesn t get better than this agreed g jack tagline bad or missing no carrier rosereader p entered at rose rosemail rosenet usenet gateway rose media
rec.sport.hockey	hockeytipset avgjort hockey tipset v ren vinnare av hockey tipset per bengtson grattis slutst llning per bengtson lars andersson anders engwall staffan axelsson patrik sander hannu l a hietanen ingvar khan noran cs tut fi jan stein roger wennstr m lars thore aarhus fredrik nissen marek repinski lars wiklund lennart hedenstr m vinnare och lycklig gare av en fbk mugg r allts per bengtson kometen som ledde hockeytipset vid halvtid men som sedan fick ge vika f r anders engwall i slutspurten de tre f rsta lyckades pricka in den viktiga fr ga sm guld till bryn s kanske var det v l sv rt att tippa slutspelet ocks men man ser att om den j mna finalen mellan lule och bryn s ist llet hade slutat till lule s f rdel s hade det varit samma vinnare i alla fall h r f ljer de korrekta svaren siffran inom parentes anger hur m nga som hade tippat detta anger per bengtsons vinnande rad elitserien tippa den slutgiltiga tabellen v ster s bryn s malm f rjestad modo lule leksand djurg rden hv r gle vilka av de kvartsfinalisterna g r vidare till semifinal djurg rden lule bryn s malm vilka lag m ts i final lule bryn s vilka blir svenska m stare p bryn s allsvenskan v stra fr lunda huddinge bj rkl ven aik team g vle boden staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se r s h contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	re buffalo boston defense in article apr ncsu edu delarocq eos ncsu edu derrell emery larocque writes tonight in boston the buffalo sabres blanked the boston bruins tonight in boston looks like boston can hang this season up because buffalo s home record is awesome this is great buffalo fans might get to see revenge for last year i m glad grant fuhr will never be as over confident after two wins as you are it takes four wins to defeat an opponent each tougher to obtain than the previous one buffalo is off to a good start fuhr is proving the fuhr bashers wrong but boston is an awfully good team gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re bruins in article apr exu ericsson se lmcmasc noah ericsson se writes could anyone post the game summary for the sabres bruins game grant fuhr rules gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re sharks jack feirerra was re sharks kingston fired in article apr csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes in article lte kinn ul appserv eng sun com mre teal eng sun com mike eisler writes i don t think trading kisio was intrinsically a mistake however trading him for a rd round pick would be he should have been worth a lot more than a rd round pick for a playoff team in fact i would intimate that the offers the sharks got this year for kisio were way greater than just a rd round pick hindsight s nobody expected kisio to have his nd best career year besides without kisio the sharks would have tanked even earlier in the season and gund might have gotten a little more serious about getting joe murphy a guy who definitely would be around years from now when the sharks do make the playoffs what else could be done the gunds offered million for murphy but the oilers wanted prospect s which the sharks declined to give which i think is correct i didn t mean to imply that gund s offer wasn t enough gund s offer was the right but too late in the season m offered in november lets sather buy a replacement for murphy this season and make the playoffs this year m in march doesn t help sather with his immediate objectives doesn t help with long term objectives only a prospect or draft pick does and no way should the sharks do that however getting back to what if games had kisio been traded to chicago last year then the sharks go for october and maybe gund panicks sooner in november and here s another what if twist chicago would have had kisio this season they never go after murphy in the first place because kelly is having his best season bigger guys in chicago so gund has no competition so ferriera sather and keenan all look like geniuses a broken fax machine and ferriera keenan and maybe kingston and maybe even green lose their jobs kind of makes you shiver doesn t it bottomline for every black scenario any of you can concoct for kisio leaving i can concoct an equally bright one if the kisio fiasco was the cause of ferierra s down fall i hope it wasn t because he tried to trade kisio but because he screwed it up nonetheless i m sorry ferierra and kingston are gone and i wish gund would follow and what have the gunds done exactly that caused you to wish that they were gone are you serious let ferierra go fire kingston these last two basically mean that sharks are starting over again in terms of the timetable to capture the cup as i ve stated frequently out expansion teams had the same gm from inception through cup season broadcast more home games than away games broadcast very few road pacific and mountain time games jack up my ticket prices from to in two years not that i m going to pay bucks for seats i ll probably next to the virtual folks not tell me my priority not let me sell my priority in order for me to get the free jacket force me to order my tickets for next season before i get to select my section not let me park at the new arena after paying for their privileged parking lot which was sometimes full when i got there for straight years i ve been a loyal ticket holder since day literally in spring of when the team was announced and i m not getting that loyalty returned wirtz treats his fans far better by comparison and pocklington with his cheap tix is the best owner of all go edmonton oilers go for playoffs next year stay in edmonton i know one isn t suppose to make negative comments on signatures but what did us oiler fans do to you to deserve the stay in edmonton part i d never wish the kings to leave metro la it s too much fun watching the shark s beat them mike eisler mre eng sun com not only are they leafs the best team but their fans are even more intelligent and insightful than pittsburgh s their players are mighty bright too i mean he really was going to get his wallet back right jan brittenson on leaf pen woofers in rec sport hockey
rec.sport.hockey	re don cherry help me out here in article mfpirbo wbli ispc andrew cmu edu william k willis ww a andrew cmu edu writes as a person who has rarely even seen don cherry and doesn t know anything about him i don t know whether it is just this area pittsburgh of the usa that is deprived of his broadcasts or whether he s a canadian thing altogether seriously what is he all about i know he was a coach at one time and from the volume of posts about him someone surely is getting a steady diet of him somehow but my question is what is the deal with him secondly are the comments of his that i read about on the net merely flame bait or do people actually take him seriously i gotta tell you from what i see he really sounds like an ass let me know maybe i m missing something well here in detroit we get to see and hear don cherry quite regularly the detroit area picks up hockey night in canada from cbc ch in windsor where we see don cherry s coaches corner between periods we also get to see don cherry s grapevine just before the game the grapevine is a hockey talk show where don talks to a player or coach about what else hockey it s actually a pretty good show and don isn t as annoying as he is on coaches corner i think this is were don got his nickname grapes but i m not sure don use to coach the boston bruins i don t know exactly when that was could someone fill me in on this info a local radio station here in detroit wllz talks to don every tuesday morning personally i ve had my fill of donny he really pisses me off sometimes during the detroit toronto game monday night on cbc don gave high praise to doug gilmour saying he was a two way player and not just a designated goal scorer and that he is probably the best player in the game because of that that s fine and i agree that gilmour is a good two way player but he said the exact same thing about yzerman about a month ago on a local radio talk show what gives it seems like he just has a set speech that he changes when he goes from city to city don cherry i think insert star player name for city that he is in is the best two way player in the league today there have been other times can t remember exactly what he said that he basically changed his opinions to match the audience he was talking to someone here on the net said something about how don criticized mario lemieux but when the time comes for don to broadcast the cup playoffs from the civic center yes i think the pens will make it out of the wales conference don will apologize left and right for his remarks about lemieux in my opinion he is an ass and i won t change my opinion if i m in a different city sorry if this didn t answer your question better but i just had to get this off my chest laurie marshall wayne state university detroit michigan go wings
rec.sport.hockey	re oilers for sale yadalle cs ualberta ca yadallee dave s writes here s one from the mill the oilers might move to hamilton where porklington can get a free deal given what labour relations and puck has been like it would be a sigh of relief this way w e can can both elements well dave i would have to disagree with you there satan himself could own the team and i d be happy as long as the oilers stayed in edmonton selfish but true i don t want to see the oilers move no matter who their owner is bart bart splunge uucp or barto nait ab ca
rec.sport.hockey	atlanta s abc affiliate sucks i knew despite the lack of a full game telecast last week it was still too much hockey for atlanta atlanta s abc has declined to pick up any playoff games till may and even when they show the games on may and may they will continue to skip the first half hour of the telecast i know this is still a better situation compared to rest of georgia alabama etc but it is still pretty annoying at least in pittsburgh we had a network preemptionchannel which showed all netwoork shows prempted by the local affiliate i asked them what their problem was i told them that a local rating was not that bad considering it was the first nhl game shown after a long time without much promotion besides their syndicated programming in the afternoon is usually low rated so what did they have to lose by showing nhl playoffs she told me that they had contractual obligations i asked her if golf was shown oin abc would contractual obligations come in the way and how come contractual obligations didn t come in the way of last week s telecast she then couldn t give me a coherent answer also i added that atlanta had one of the highest neutral site game attendances and that the demographics were good i think abc and other networks should begin to tie their high rated programs like roseanne in with thier sports programming i hope that everyone in atlanta who reads this bboard calls wsb and complain bitterlyt about this tell them you will stop watching their news telecasts since they seem to be very unprofessional in handling this situation the lady did not seem to settle on a single reason sometimes the reason is low ratings then another time she says contractual obligations
rec.sport.hockey	re trivia question in article apr sei cmu edu caj sei cmu edu carol jarosz writes while watching the penguins devils game last night i saw the slash that barrasso took on the neck this brought to mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut by a skate i think he was a sabre but i m not positive does anyone remember know his name what has happened to him since what about the player whose skate cut the goalie name info has this ever happened before in a hockey game thanks carol go pens his name is clint malarchuk i m not sure what he does now but i ve heard he s an extra in slasher films brian
rec.sport.hockey	atlanta sportsbars ok i know i look pretty desperate on this bboard i think i have posted or messages already on the issue of nhl telecats over the last few weeks but hey i am pretty desperate what i am interested is not just a sportsbar with multiple screens so thast i can watch the game on one of those silent screens are there any hockey oriented bars in this area or does some patrick division or adams division fan have a satellite dish i don t mind paying an admission fee if necessary
rec.sport.hockey	re don cherry help me out here in article mfpirbo wbli ispc andrew cmu edu william k willis ww a andrew cmu edu writes as a person who has rarely even seen don cherry and doesn t know anything about him i don t know whether it is just this area pittsburgh of the usa that is deprived of his broadcasts or whether he s a canadian thing altogether seriously what is he all about i know he was a coach at one time and from the volume of posts about him someone surely is getting a steady diet of him somehow but my question is what is the deal with him secondly are the comments of his that i read about on the net merely flame bait or do people actually take him seriously i gotta tell you from what i see he really sounds like an ass let me know maybe i m missing something for those of you who complain about don cherry and wonder why he is popular the reply is dick vitale and john madden and bobby knight and joe garagiola and howard cosell john madden picks gary clark of the redskins for his all madden team a lot over much better receivers for much the same reasons cherry sings the praises of doug gilmour a little guy with heart yet one doesn t see a string of american posts saying that john madden has lost his marbles dick vitale is always promoting this kid from this high school or that college with outrageous statements why should americans expect that canada would not have such characters in relation to our greatest passion which is hockey canadians are very similar to americans culturally our sports are just hockey and curling whereas with americans it is football basketball baseball and bowling gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re bowman needs credit however bowman is really not a modern coach and patrick s solution of having him only run the team on game days and delegate most of the day to day responsibity to the assistants is a shrewd managerial decision on patrick s part i would argue gerald that bowman is the first modern coach bowman s canadiens were the first nhl team to have a weight room in the s he is the first coach i have seen that manipulates the press into spreading false game plan rumours during important games listen to the pre game interview will bowman and compare that to what is on the ice i agree bowman is a master of the lineups remember last year in the sc when he benched jagr only to set him free in ot when jagr banged in the winning goal i thought this was trademark bowman and also a sign of a modern coach i am left asking what is a modern coach if not bowman jake
rec.sport.hockey	re nords habs in o t we was robbed in article apr jarvis csri toronto edu yaska eecg toronto edu yaska sankar writes paul stewart is the worst and most biased ref presently in the nhl we was robbed no patrick roy is the reason the game was lost and ron hextall is the reason quebec won i don t buy this at all roy was the reason the game was tied and that would not have been the case had dionne kept his cool roy stood on his head for the first minutes of the game when the nords were rushing from end to end kamensky s mini break after the tying goal and the first shot by young in ot were both excellent chances stopped by roy roy outplayed hextall for most of the game but roy becomes the villain and hextall the hero because roy s team didn t make full use of their opportunities whoa what you are effectively doing is implying that if a player plays really well he stores up mistakes that can be used at a later time ths is not so roy is the villain as you so succinctly put it because he allowed a very cheap goal if you think roy outplayed hextall perhaps you should get a tape of the game and watch the first minutes of the third period nhl goaltenders make some great saves if they did not they would not be in the nhl in the first place i do not expect any particular goalie to be able to make the great saves all of the time even though they are occasionally required however when it comes to a routine shot like sakic s especially at such a crucial time in a game i don t think there are any legitimate excuses hextall on the other hand had a lot of lucky bounces description of lucky bounces hextall wasn t particularly brilliant on those plays i am not arguing that hextall was brilliant i am arguing is that a relatively weak wrist shot from the outside of the circle shold not result in a goal but it was just the goal the timing stank but against an explosive team like quebec they gave them opportunity too many with a powerplay that was totally unnecessary in a one goal game with less than a minute to go there is no such thing as just the goal i have not defended dionne for taking the penalty either in fact i think it was a boneheaded move but it led to one goal only and montreal had a two goal lead my main concern is the second goal this most certainly was a team loss leclair missed his opportunities as did bellows and brunet dionne took a bad penalty damphousse and lebeau were silent carbonneau and savard were a step behind all night roy gave up the bad goal roy by no means can be singled out for this loss what you say about the skaters is absolutely true but realize that the game was effectively won you could watch any hockey game in fact you could watch any sporting event period and spend hours discussing the what if s w r t missed opportunities they are not important when the final result is decided if i get the time soon i ll watch the game again and email you a list of lucky montreal bounces and a list of quebec offensive screwups montreal was leading with a minute to go the goalie is the last line of defence and i will grant that extra attention is focussed on him sometimes without justification but roy gave up a lousy goal and a team cannot afford such a goal roy looked like a player in an industrial league on sakic s shot and hextall didn t on dionne s goal please who cares of what value is it to justify one lousy play with a totally unrelated lousy play i could do a hextall critique if you d like but if you re going to assess his performance keep in mind that he made the key saves at the key times roy is paid big money because that is his value compared to other goalies and he still is in the top for the record i did not say that roy was not one of the top goaltenders in the league in fact i agree that he is the montreal media is the quickest to heap praise and then hurl derogatory comments against the habs they are no better than uninformed fans i assume you are referring to me however i have pointed out that i think the loss can be blamed on roy i have not said he sucks nor do i think i ve made any other derogatory comments if you regard objective and informed fyi observations as derogatory i really can t help you dchhabra stpl ists ca
rec.sport.hockey	re buffalo sabres in article r pc sa msuinfo cl msu edu vergolin euler lbs msu edu david vergolini writes ok buffalo fans i am a red wings fan but am amazed at how the sabres are beating up on the bruins is there any reason for this is it grant fuhr or mogilny and lafontaine i would like to hear from you since i do not know much about the sabres dave vergolini michigan state university vergolin euler lbs msu edu pure and simple grant fuhr is money he has been awesome in the playoffs especially last night but mogilny has been scoring well and his russian friend kymlev sp has also done well but fuhr is the biggest reason they are winning and the difference between this year s team and previous years bill perry
rec.sport.hockey	re ulf and all allan sullivan allan cs ualberta ca wrote unfortunately that is the way the league is heading you can t fight so the only way to retaliate against someone is with a cheap shot when the ref isn t looking ulf has brought this to a high level players stuck in the past like neely who prefer fights to cheap shots are at a disadvantage in the new system lets face it a cheap shot like high sticking is a very effective method it is easier to hide from the refs has a better chance of causing injury and you can draw people into fights that way i don t like it but that s the way the league is going by the way there was a rather good hit by ulf in the last penguin devil game managed to hit the nj player in the face with a stick must have been a legal hit after all ulf is a clean player and is allowed to do things like that are there any ex nhl hockey players out there who might care to comment on this and end this ridiculously long discussion tom huot huot cray com
rec.sport.hockey	re ulf crushes valeri zelepukin bill clare clare ssd kodak com wrote that more or less says it i flicked the penguins game on briefly and saw ulf cross check valeri in the face i am wondering if don cherry is going to go off on this at all in coach s corner and that was the only infraction of this type in the game come on wake up geez he s not the only player who does this sort of thing i think we were kind of lucky the game was not really all that chippy considering the state nj is in about now tom huot huot cray com
rec.sport.hockey	re tv coverage nhl to blame sjg ns cc lehigh edu steven jay gibble writes a whole lot of completely ignorant stuff about pitt give this guy a drug test and some ridalin whale you are at it dvb
rec.sport.hockey	re wash isl ot game in article apr staff dccs upenn edu filinuk staff dccs upenn edu geoff filinuk writes get off espn s back and stop posting articles on this subject there have been to many f n complainers about this game that it s making me sick generally i agree with you however last night espn cut away to baseball tonite which looks like sportscenter tailored to baseball and they cut away at pacific that s quite a contract they have there if espn couldn t deliver they should have had a transistion plan to let sportschannel pick up the slack nonetheless it is ultimately the fault of the us american public that regular season baseball has precedence over playoff hockey in the u s support your team support your game somebody in r s h had an excellent idea that we should write chrysler to thank them for supporting hockey with their ads and that we would consider their products here s an equally excellent idea watch baseball for minutes i know i m asking a lot but that s what spew bags are for write down who is advertising and write them letters complaining that they are supporting baseball to your displeasure and that you won t consider buying their products because of it mike eisler mre eng sun com not only are they leafs the best team but their fans are even more intelligent and insightful than pittsburgh s their players are mighty bright too i mean he really was going to get his wallet back right jan brittenson on leaf pen woofers in rec sport hockey
rec.sport.hockey	re trivia question the goalie to whom you refer is clint malarchuk he was at that time playing with the sabres his team immediately prior to that was the washington capitals while he did recover and continue to play i do not know his present whereabouts
rec.sport.hockey	bernie nicholls what a man just some thoughts i don t usually like to post simply to make fun of a player but this time i couldn t resist during the pens devils game last night second period i think kevin stevens was in the penalty box nicholls punched kjell samuellson in the face then raised his stick like a two handed sword to defend himself all kjell could do at and pounds was laugh and speaking of swedish penguins defensemen ulf is getting a little out of hand lately his cheap shots are getting more frequent and more violent as everybody in the meadowlands except for the officials could see last night he rammed the butt of his stick down one of the devil s throat i ve always supported the argument he does his job by being irritating but he s starting to push it over the edge imho of course holik s chop to barrasso s neck wasn t too sportsmanlike either it seems that he was following the the only way to beat the penguins is to injure them philosophy as my modern drama professor pointed out to me the other day jagr was stoned pretty well tuesday night and last night as well although the seconds he danced around the devils end was pretty exciting matt at uva
rec.sport.hockey	re espn tell us about it in article apr walter cray com huot cray com tom huot writes i hadn t heard about this new espn when is this new network supposed to start sounds great to me as long as my cable co offers it hopefully epsn will use the lesson given by the master ted turner the season ted introduced tnt many cable co s refused to put it on saying that gee we get enough old movies miniseries etc on tbs usa amc wgn wor why do we need another one this was in the fall come spring ted fixed their little red wagons good the previous spring nba playoffs wore on tbs now they were on tnt and still are and everyone gets tnt now so espn should put nfl football and baseball on espn and leave hockey on espn and if cable co s play games and drop espn in favor of espn espn should alternate baseball and football between channels every week but do the espn guys collectively have the gonads of the turner guy mike eisler mre eng sun com not only are they leafs the best team but their fans are even more intelligent and insightful than pittsburgh s their players are mighty bright too i mean he really was going to get his wallet back right jan brittenson on leaf pen woofers in rec sport hockey
rec.sport.hockey	re list of tee times at metropolitan toronto golf courses for monday in article apr julian uwo ca lee gaul csd uwo ca steve lee writes in article c spec euc noose ecn purdue edu stamber rainbow ecn purdue edu kevin l stamber writes kevin l stamber purdue university and phil kirzyc the kielbasa kid will roam the arena for interviews woops this is rec sport hockey not rec sport golf hope you check the newsgroup header next time before posting steve if the leaf s play like they did in game one they re going to need these watching that game really hurt cheers i ingo sunee uwaterloo ca the more violent the body iwweigel descartes uwaterloo ca contact of the sports you ingo electrical watstar uwaterloo ca watch the lower your class iwweigele electrical watstar uwaterloo ca paul fussell if the university of waterloo had on opinion this probably wouldn t be it
rec.sport.hockey	espn cares less about hockey espn is pathetic i have been watching everybody complain about espn s coverage and i agree with all of you might i suggest that we are getting all worked up over nothing we all knew that espn s coverage was going to suck i mean have you ever watched during the regular season sportscenter coverage of hockey it sucks i mean really sucks espn does not know hockey if it shot them in the ass i was really pissed of about last night coverage i go to school in ohio i know the indians suck so why show them if i were bill clement i would shoot myself anyway after i calmed down after i realized that they were not going to show overtime of the caps isles game i thought to myself i knew that this was going to happen in fact i remerbed myself praying that at least they would keep even the boring devils game overall i think espn does not care if they show hockey or not and i firmly belive that they have know respect for the fans ie because of contract obligations screw you espn praise be to all hockey fans who put up with this shit go hawks jb
rec.sport.hockey	montreal canadiens are there any montreal canadiens fans out there who can let me the radio station s which are playing the playoff series including short wave radio frequencies lewisburg pa home of bucknell university is definitely not a hockey town please send responses to malinich bucknell edu thanks
rec.sport.hockey	re wjr in boston in the boston area you can hear the rangers on wfan and the devils on wabc the whalers on wtic and the red wings on wjr this of course is in addition to the bruins who are currently on weei but may move to whdh because the fools at weei are owned by the celtics and thus will show them over the bruins every time there is a conflict you can also get wbal baltimore but i don t think they have hockey btw i once got a station from indiana that had fort wayne comets games
rec.sport.hockey	re espn sucks ot or baseball guess which in article c tc aty ccu umanitoba ca umturne ccu umanitoba ca writes showing a meaningless relatively baseball game over the overtime of game that was tied up with less than seconds left on the clock what actually happened after the pens game i turned to espn and the game was nearly at the end of regular then the phone rang i turened off the tv later when i turned it back on the indians were on then a little later the hockey games was on again then the baseball game what was actually on not that it matters any more but some hockey was in deed on
rec.sport.hockey	re peter forsberg in article cvincent poolman ucs mun ca cvincent morgan ucs mun ca carl vincent writes in article apr spang camosun bc ca ua freenet victoria bc ca tom moffat says can some on e give me some stats on forsrg in the world championships if sao mail to ua freenet victoria bc ca tom moffat victoria b c canada here are the top point getters in the world jr hockey championships g a p forsberg swe i am sooo glad i have both these guys on my naslund swe rotisserrie team but then again w mario vyborny cze slo bure gretzky neely p turgeon damphousse sundstrom swe lebeau and juneau dunno how much time lehtinen fin they ll get
rec.sport.hockey	re octopus in detroit valerie s hammerl hammerl acsu buffalo edu wrote in article apr news clarkson edu farenebt logic camp clarkson edu droopy writes in fact the tradition has been passed down to their affiliate in adirondack in gm of last yr s finals an legged creature was hurled onto the frozen pond and landed right at the feet of ref lance roberts it may have been passed to toronto but i ve even seen an octopus at the aud last year s bruins sabres game i knew all about the detroit version but seeing at the aud was a bit puzzling i don t think it s puzzling a bit it s called unoriginality no i m not bitter bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey ny division ii state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	nhl playoffs results for games played nhl playoff results for conference semi finals best of seven patrick adams norris smythe nj buf leads stl leads win pit leads bos chi van leads nyi tied mon tor la leads was que leads det leads cal new jersey devils pittsburgh penguins leads series st period pit mceachern francis taglianetti pit m lemieux u samuelsson barrasso sh nd period pit tocchet k stevens u samuelsson pit jagr francis ramsey pit k stevens francis murphy pp pit mceachern daniels mullen rd period pit mullen francis barrasso powerplay opportunities devils of penguins of shots on goal devils penguins new jersey devils terreri shots saves billington third shots saves pittsburgh penguins barrasso shots saves att new york islanders series tied washington capitals st period nyi turgeon king thomas nd period was hunter johansson miller nyi turgeon thomas vaske was hunter johansson carpenter pp rd period nyi hogue was khristich cavallini bondra nyi ferraro flatley hogue was hunter johansson khristich pp overtime none overtime nyi mullen ferraro flatley powerplay opportunities islanders of capitals of shots on goal islanders capitals new york islanders healy shots saves washington capitals tabaracci shots saves att montreal canadiens quebec nordiques leads series st period que leschyshyn kamensky sakic pp que young lapointe que young lapointe duchesne nd period none rd period mon bellows odelein que lapointe ricci en powerplay opportunities canadiens of nordiques of shots on goal canadiens nordiques montreal canadiens roy shots saves quebec nordiques hextall shots saves att buffalo sabres leads series boston bruins st period buf presley sh buf wood houlder b sweeney pp nd period buf mogilny lafontaine rd period buf hawerchuk carney smehlik pp powerplay opportunities sabres of bruins of shots on goal sabres bruins buffalo sabres fuhr shots saves boston bruins moog shots saves blue second shots saves att spike
rec.sport.hockey	re espn cares less about hockey jbrown vax cns muskingum edu writes espn is pathetic i have been watching everybody complain about espn s coverage and i agree with all of you might i suggest that we are getting all worked up over nothing we all knew that espn s coverage was going to suck i mean have you ever watched during the regular season sportscenter coverage of hockey it sucks i mean really sucks espn does not know hockey if it shot them in the ass i was really pissed of about last night coverage i go to school in ohio i know the indians suck so why show them if i were bill clement i would shoot myself i hope this makes you feel better but the overtime between the isles and the caps was great hang in there
rec.sport.hockey	re sharks kingston fired nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes and cherbayev was initially supposed to play for the russian wc team anybody know what happened there yeah they finally came to agreement on a contract as soon as the ink was dry he suddenly decided kansas city was a neat place to be ergo the want to play for the national team was a bargaining chip chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants a san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.hockey	re area code for edmonton alberta canada believe it or not we do have phone books but the current information does not include an area code for edmonton alberta i would not be so hostile towards others for asking simple questions i would rather appear stupid than open my moutha nd remove all doubt mark twain if you assult someone you get years in hockey minutes is this a great sport or what kevin d frank kfrank magnus acs ohio state edu
rec.sport.hockey	buffalo sabres can the sabres win two more games against the bruins i think game three in buffalo will be the most important of the series if the sabres lose that game the party will be over it will be hello next year the key for the remaining games in the series will be whether fuhr can keep up his brillliant goaltending and if mogilny can continue skate by the bruins he has shown demonstrated excellent speed finally the sabres appear to have shown up for the post season sabres bills fan
rec.sport.hockey	re if you were pat burns if i were pat burns i d throw in the towel the wings dominated every aspect of the game trying to mix up the lines is a dead end murray has too many combinations to counter with my prediction is wings in mark let s go wings
rec.sport.hockey	grant fuhr leads sabres buffalo is up is the series with boston and the reason grant fuhr fuhr is playoff hungry and he s proving once again why they call him money goaltender fuhr might not be one of the best goaltenders in the league anymore statistically at least but he s proving that he can make the big save at the right time the leafs should have kept fuhr and probably would have had a chance against powerhouse detroit but again where was andreychoke in game i can see the huge smile on gerald s face after fuhr s performance a l l e z l e s b l u e s joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	re goodbye good riddance get lost stars in article apr julian uwo ca kirk gaul csd uwo ca andrew kirk writes back to hockey the north stars should be moved because for the past few years they have just been shit a real team like toronto would never be moved well if shit means going to the stanley cup finals a couple years ago i d rather be shit than a leaf fan go skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite go braves an effect on you mike patton faith no more go hornets go capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd a prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	re don cherry help me out here in article mfpirbo wbli ispc andrew cmu edu william k willis ww a andrew cmu edu writes as a person who has rarely even seen don cherry and doesn t know anything about him i don t know whether it is just this area pittsburgh of the usa that is deprived of his broadcasts or whether he s a canadian thing altogether seriously what is he all about i know he was a coach at one time and from the volume of posts about him someone surely is getting a steady diet of him somehow but my question is what is the deal with him secondly are the comments of his that i read about on the net merely flame bait or do people actually take him seriously i gotta tell you from what i see he really sounds like an ass let me know maybe i m missing something i asked him and don cherry denies being roger maynard and he denies any knowledge of usenet he did concede that roger is the best two way poster on the net today his defense is as good as his offence
rec.sport.hockey	re area code for edmonton alberta canada in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu kfrank magnus acs ohio state edu kevin d frank writes i m trying to get ahold of the directory assistance operator in edmonton but i need the area code to do so if you know it please e mail me directly as i have little time to scan through all the posts much appreciated geez i didn t realize things were so bad at ohio state that they can t afford phone books or even operators this is probably clinton s fault isn t it paul badertscher uwovax uwo ca
rec.sport.hockey	cbc canadian for espn hooray i hear on tsn that the jets have won a game selanne getting a hat trick of course here in god s country read ontario i couldn t see that game nor any other in the van wpg series so far because our beloved cbc figures no one out here cares about this series which has looked pretty competitve so far on monday and wednesday nights cbc could have shown the toronto detroit game done the news then picked up winnipeg vancouver they didn t tonight you guessed it toronto detroit the news not the end of the jets game then calgary la so if it s hockey night in canada why can t this ontarian see one of the two series with two canadian teams is this too much to ask paul badertscher uwovax uwo ca
rec.sport.hockey	jets canucks jets hold on win teemu selanne had goals keith tkachuk had one and luciano borsato scored a rare jets shorthanded goal as the jets held on to beat the canucks and close the series to trevor linden and pavel bure had two goals each for the canucks in a losing cause selanne came out of a two game goal scoring slump scoring two powerplay goals and one on a nice breakaway pass from darrin shannon hard work paid off tonight for the jets and if the jets continue to exhibit this strong work effort they can make a series of it i woofed last year when we were up i ain t going to do that again i ll have to be quietly happy with a solid performance daryl turner r s h contact for the winnipeg jets internet umturne ccu umanitoba ca fidonet or please route through tkachuk over to zhamnov up to sel nne he shoots he scores the jets win the cup the jets win the cup essensa for vezina housley for norris sel nne for calder
rec.sport.hockey	re sharks jack feirerra was re sharks kingston fired broadcast more home games than away games broadcast very few road pacific and mountain time games jack up my ticket prices from to in two years not that i m going to pay bucks for seats i ll probably next to the virtual folks not tell me my priority not let me sell my priority in order for me to get the free jacket force me to order my tickets for next season before i get to select my section not let me park at the new arena after paying for their grrrr let s start a whole nother topic on show bad the sharks are doing on these things i swear that all of my partial plan games were televised i know i m exaggerating but in order the new ticket prices suck wait till people try to park at games next year public transit yeah right i d love to take caltrain for hours to see a hour game shelling out hundreds of dollars for partial season plans for two years doesnt mean anything to the sharks as i get to pick my seats after the dead rise from their graves to claim their seats frank frank giraffe fgiraffe well sf ca us apple pacbell ucbvax well fgiraffe as the noose of narco militarism tightens round our necks we worry about burning flags and pee in jars at work to keep our jobs jello biafra
rec.sport.hockey	re don cherry help me out here in article mfpirbo wbli ispc andrew cmu edu william k willis ww a andrew cmu edu writes as a person who has rarely even seen don cherry and doesn t know anything about him i don t know whether it is just this area pittsburgh of the usa that is deprived of his broadcasts or whether he s a canadian thing altogether seriously what is he all about i he s a canadian thing former coach of the boston bruins and colorado rockies from the summaries that get posted i gather that his ongoing beef this year has been the conventional wisdom that canadian hockey is doomed to be second or third rate behind the perceived emergence of the u s and european programs know he was a coach at one time and from the volume of posts about him someone surely is getting a steady diet of him somehow but my question is what is the deal with him secondly are the comments of his that i after he left the rockies he got a job with cbc s hockey night in canada and hasn t looked back since actually he did work for cbc at least on playoff season after the rockies were eliminated read about on the net merely flame bait or do people actually take him seriously i gotta tell you from what i see he really sounds like an i d say it s a combination of flame bait and serious journalism the closest thing you ll find to cherry in the u s is stan fischler a self described hockey maven the similarities are that they both say things that get people upset the difference is that cherry knows the game and fischler doesn t ass let me know maybe i m missing something don s a character if he were completely rational and noncontroversial he wouldn t have a job by some definitions he could be called an ass but then some people feel the same about mike lang another character that i wish would get wider exposure only one national telecast last year mike eisler mre eng sun com not only are they leafs the best team but their fans are even more intelligent and insightful than pittsburgh s their players are mighty bright too i mean he really was going to get his wallet back right jan brittenson on leaf pen woofers in rec sport hockey
rec.sport.hockey	goalie mask poll update current votes for favorite goalie masks pts st pts nd pt rd player team pts votes ed belfour chicago andy moog boston curtis joseph st louis brian hayward san jose ron hextall quebec gerry cheevers boston retired john vanbeisbrouck ny rangers grant fuhr buffalo mike richter ny rangers manon rheaume atlanta ihl don beaupre washington ken dryden montreal retired others receiving less than pts mike vernon cal clint malarchuk buf sd ihl tommy soderstrom phil ray leblanc usa artus irbe sj tim cheveldae det sean burke nj rick wamsley tor ret jon casey minn bob essensa win glenn healy nyi toy espo gilles gratton rod stauber la gump worsley pat jablonski tb grant fuhr tor felix potvin tor stephane beauregard win mark fitzpatrick nyi chico resch nyi can someone please tell me which teams the play ed for thanks go skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite go braves an effect on you mike patton faith no more go hornets go capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd a prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl team captains st as for more captain trivia the next edmonton st catain was lee fogilin who was later traded to st the buffalo sabres after him was wayne gretzky st who w traded to l a then came kevin low who st nly this year was traded to the n y rangers wasn t mark messier captain of the oilers before kevin lowe but of course he was traded as well so your point of every oilers captain being traded is still true stephen legge slegge kean ucs mun ca
rec.sport.hockey	espn really sucks big time so all us hockey automobile racing fans all know exactly where we stand espn delays the martinsville race by a day for the nfl draft espn shows baseball instead of the overtime of a nhl playoff game gimme a break guys does anyone know why this race is tape delay especially until monday is this the weekend for the nfl draft if so postponing the race for a day is a real slap in the face for racing fans i m afraid you re right as usual as i recall they ve been doing this ever since they started covering the draft live i wish they could work out some kind of a deal with somebody else such as tnn to get the race on live but i guess espn isn t much into sharing it also clarifies where auto racing stands on their priority list as if we didn t already know charlie shub cdash cs colorado edu or on leave at the university of iowa cdash cs uiowa edu
rec.sport.hockey	re goodbye good riddance get lost stars in article apr julian uwo ca kirk gaul csd uwo ca andrew kirk writes losers like us you are the fucking moron who has never heard of the western business school or the university of western ontario for that matter why don t you pull your head out of your asshole and smell something other than shit for once so you can look on a map to see where uwo is back to hockey the north stars should be moved because for the past few years they have just been shit a real team like toronto would never be moved not only have i not heard of the western business school or the university of western ontario i ve never even wondered if there was a western ontario and judging by the quality of the posts coming from there i m still not sure that the place exists perhaps i should be impressed though since it appears that grade school children in that area have access to the internet rick
rec.sport.hockey	re don cherry help me out here william k willis ww a andrew cmu edu writes as a person who has rarely even seen don cherry and doesn t know anything about him i don t know whether it is just this area pittsburgh of the usa that is deprived of his broadcasts or whether he s a canadian thing altogether seriously what is he all about i know he was a coach at one time and from the volume of posts about him someone surely is getting a steady diet of him somehow but my question is what is the deal with him secondly are the comments of his that i read about on the net merely flame bait or do people actually take him seriously i gotta tell you from what i see he really sounds like an ass let me know maybe i m missing something from his topps rookie year as coach card for the past couple of seasons don has been the highly successful coach of the rochester americans of the ahl but he is getting his first shot at an nhl job with the bruins named coach of the year in the ahl the last two years and he aims to make the bruins a rough team again as they were a couple of years back although he played seasons of professional hockey don never played a regular season nhl game he did appear in one playoff game for boston in don s brother dick played two seasons in the nhl with boston and philadelphia mark mckinzie listen if they re going to buy lunch boxes mckinzie math wisc edu they might as well buy david cassidy lunch boxes uw dept of mathematics madison wi david cassidy
rec.sport.hockey	usenet hockey draft final standings here are the final stadings for the usenet hockey draft congratulations to this year s winner dave wessels of victoria b c who parlayed his initial points into points thanks to all teams for entering the biggest usenet hockey draft ever i hope to hear from you all again this september for the th annual draft it has been my pleasure running the draft and i hope you all had fun andrew usenet hockey draft standings week posn team total pts cash last posn dave wessels gilles carmel bob hill seppo kemppainen the awesome oilers hillside raiders mak the knife paranjape jan stein this years model tapio repo rangers of destiny the underachievers frank s big fish go flames on thin ice mopar muscle men littlest giants lindros losers die penguin bandwaggoners samuel lau calgary alberta boomer s boys delaware wombats general accounting office migods menschen wellsy s buttheads dec nh fife flyers rocky mountain high dave snell fluide glacial gerald olchowy gaoler smegheads neural netters the young and the skateless sam his dogs artic storm youngbucs soft swedes simmonac milton keynes kings jeff horvath legion of hoth le fleur de lys yan the man loke kuehn crushers hamster from hoboken streaks brian bergman the finnish force grant marven ice legion goaldingers t c overachievers randy coulman bozrah bruins skriko wolves buffalo soldiers houdini s magicians steven and mark dream team real bad toe jam rec sport hockey choices bemybaby lamp lighters lippe phil and kev s karma dudes doug bowles bloom county all stars tom indianapolis bennies bruins smithw aik exiles iowa hockeyes frank worthless the great pumpkin non shooting seamen invisible inc brad gibson cougarmania john zupancic david wong garryola gary bergman fan club staffan axelsson kortelaisen kovat chocolate rockets plp fools the kamucks chubby checkers kodiaks derrill s dastardly dozen ken decruyenaere fisher dirtbags neil younger bsc oranienburg no namers arsenal maple leafs the campi machine mombasa mosquitos bjoern leaguen ellis islanders zachmans wingers king suke larry votenooct bloodgamers het schot is hard hurricane andrew dirty white socks wormtown woosbags bruce s rented mules oklahoma stormchasers teem kanada edelweiss frank s follies pond slime spuds psv dartmouth kokudo keikaku bunnies blue talon stanford ice hawks timo ojala mark sanders aye carumba dirty rotten puckers garys team cluster buster haral apricot fuzzfaces gary bill pens dynasty seattle pftb nesbitt the lost poots le groupe mi arctic circles late night with david letterman wembley lostweekenders wild hearted sons dree hobbs closet boy s boys scott glenn go bruins andy y f wong book em danno s bushbabies mckees rocks rockers boutch team gold goddess of fermentation convex stars flying kiwis einstein s rock band dr joel fleishman tim rogers my team tap sundogs buttered waffles go habs go princeton canucks hubert s hockey homeboys satan s choice bob s blues les nordiques pierre mailhot furleys furies slap shot marco hunters collectors the dreamers san jose mahi mahi jeff nimeroff east city jokers the leafs rule darse billings flowers daryl turner lana inc riding the pine spinal tap stimpy adg zeta chappel s chumps big bad bruins enforcers mike mac cormack sydney ns can jimparker bulldogs yellow plague jeff bachovchin absolut lehigh voyageurs republican dirty tricksters ninja turtles dr d and the s o d henry s bar b q bunch of misfits robyns team cobra s killers cherry bombers kuta papercuts great expectations acadien darman s dragons team melville killer apes kaufbeuren icebreakers jayson s kinky pucks roger smith firebirds ikea wholesale umpire life those st few weeks hurt outlaws hurricane frack attack believe it or dont todd s turkeys thundering herd knee injuries the club fred mckim crazy euros creeping death ryan s renegades pig vomit ice strykers dayton bomber cdn stuck in alabama fighting geordies cafall and crew ship s way zipper heads chris of death banko s beer rangers swillbellies oz laubsters ii ninja bunnies great scott joliet inmates ny flames sandy s sabres widefield white wolves florida tech burgh team the ice holes south carolina tiger paws daves team mudville kings redliners roadrunners for xtc leos blue chips new jersey rob pat phillips stewart clamen demon spawn sunnyvale storm allez les blues up for sale hockey club petes picks rinaco brenz revenge dinamo riga andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hp idacom telecom operation ext during the roman era was considered old
rec.sport.hockey	usenet hockey draft final point totals here are the final point totals for players chosen in the usenet hockey draft note that only players scored more than points the minimum cost although different players were chosen andrew points team player pit mario lemieux buf pat lafontaine bos adam oates det steve yzerman wpg teemu selanne nyi pierre turgeon buf alexander mogilny tor doug gilmour la luc robitaille phi mark recchi que mats sundin pit kevin stevens van pavel bure pit rick tocchet chi jeremy roenick stl craig janney que joe sakic bos joe juneau stl brett hull cgy theoren fleury pit ron francis tor dave andreychuk mtl vincent damphousse det dino ciccarelli wpg phil housley buf dale hawerchuk stl brendan shanahan mtl kirk muller pit jaromir jagr min mike modano nyr mark messier hfd geoff sanderson mtl brian bellows cgy robert reichel la jari kurri nyi steve thomas det sergei fedorov det paul coffey tb brian bradley phi rod brind amour wsh peter bondra pit larry murphy hfd andrew cassels van cliff ronning wsh mike ridley la tony granato que steve duchesne hfd pat verbeek bos ray bourque cgy gary suter nj claude lemieux mtl stephan lebeau nj alexander semak wsh kevin hatcher min russ courtnall wsh dale hunter que mike ricci sj kelly kisio stl jeff brown que owen nolan van murray craven van geoff courtnall nyr tony amonte nyi derek king min dave gagner phi eric lindros cgy joe nieuwendyk nyi benoit hogue tor nikolai borschevsky wsh michal pivonka min ulf dahlen la jimmy carson nj stephane richer chi chris chelios stl nelson emerson wpg alexei zhamnov bos dmitri kvartalnov van trevor linden wpg thomas steen van petr nedved pit joe mullen chi steve larmer la mike donnelly que andrei kovalenko nyr mike gartner wsh dmitri khristich wsh al iafrate det ray sheppard sj johan garpenlov tor glenn anderson hfd zarley zalapski la wayne gretzky nyr adam graves nj valeri zelepukin ott norm maciver phi kevin dineen det steve chiasson det paul ysebaert phi garry galley pit shawn mceachern mtl mike keane wpg darrin shannon nyi pat flatley nj bernie nicholls que scott young la rob blake phi brent fedyk chi steve smith wsh pat elynuik nj scott stevens cgy sergei makarov wpg fredrik olausson van greg adams tb john tucker chi christian ruuttu chi brent sutter cgy al macinnis nyr sergei nemchinov hfd terry yake nyr darren turcotte nyi vladimir malakhov van dixon ward la tomas sandstrom bos stephen leach hfd patrick poulin wpg keith tkachuk nyi jeff norton mtl denis savard tor john cullen wsh sylvain cote nyr ed olczyk stl kevin miller bos dave poulin van anatoli semenov phi pelle eklund wpg evgeny davydov mtl gilbert dionne nj john maclean que martin rucinsky la alexei zhitnik edm petr klima edm doug weight edm shayne corson edm craig simpson wsh kelly miller edm dave manson chi michel goulet mtl mathieu schneider det bob probert cgy paul ranheim ott sylvain turgeon min mark tinordi ott bob kudelski det niklas lidstrom ott brad shaw edm todd elik bos vladimir ruzicka min mike mcphee nyr esa tikkanen tor dave ellett nj peter stastny la corey millen nj bobby holik buf yuri khmylev tb adam creighton tor wendel clark van sergio momesso nyr alexei kovalev tor rob pearson que valery kamensky chi dirk graham nyr brian leetch edm zdeno ciger tor peter zezel bos ted donato min neal broten hfd mikael nylander phi josef beranek chi stephane matteau edm scott mellanby det keith primeau buf wayne presley nyi brian mullen phi dmitri yushkevich mtl gary leeman buf richard smehlik bos steve heinze tor dmitri mironov chi brian noonan wsh bob carpenter sj pat falloon stl igor korolev tb mikael andersson nyi ray ferraro buf petr svoboda ott mark lamb nyr james patrick mtl benoit brunet nyi scott lachance tor bill berg edm martin gelinas wpg sergei bautin edm kevin todd nyi david volek nyi darius kasparaitis tb roman hamrlik min brent gilchrist nyr phil bourque det jim hiller phi andrei lomakin hfd yvon corriveau buf donald audette bos cam neely chi joe murphy sj mark pederson pit martin straka nyr peter andersson nj janne ojanen ott tomas jelinek min bobby smith tb steve kasper sj ray whitney hfd robert petrovicky buf viktor gordijuk tor joe sacco que mikhail tatarinov sj peter ahola chi rob brown bos glen murray min brian propp hfd tim kerr wsh reggie savage la robert lang stl vitali prokhorov det viacheslav kozlov edm shaun van allen bos jozef stumpel min dan quinn pit bryan fogarty mtl olav petrov tb stan drulia nj claude vilgrain wsh jason woolley que peter forsberg wsh brian sakic wsh randy burridge mtl patrick kjellberg ott alexei yashin edm dean mcammond cgy cory stillman tb brent gretzky buf jason dawe van igor larionov chi sergei krivokrasov andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hp idacom telecom operation ext during the roman era was considered old
rec.sport.hockey	re german audience is lunatic in article apr ousrvr oulu fi golf phoenix oulu fi jouko kylmaoja writes i watched the game germany czechs in wc today and i was astonished about the behaviour of the german audience the german team got a few penalties in the last period and the crowd went it was not just those penalties most of all it was the penalty the referee didn t call on the czechs right before their first goal grazy they threw coins extra pucks and other trash into the rink is that stupid or what i guess the canadian referee one of the isostar bros gave the german team a penalty for that but it didn t help much i guess the germans just are proud over their nazi kill em all everyone don t you think it s quite silly to call it a nazi attitude when some people throw coins on the ice hey i don t approve the behavior of these guys especially not in a wc game but i can t see any reason for using the word nazi in this connection but us germans sucks attitude they just seem to have that kind of attitude in every possible sport remember the european champs in stockholm in soccer soccer hooligans are not just a german problem remember the world cup in italy again there s a big difference between throwing coins and smashing shop windows or fighting with other so called fans who come to a wc just to see if the dutch or the english or the germans are the best bruisers which other sports are you talking about i don t think soccer is every possible sport it really pisses me off i do not mean that every single german has this attitude that sucks but most of them seem to do how many germans do you know do you think out of is most of them if you hear about some white policemen beating a black man in the us what do you think about the americans most of them like beating blacks jokke kylmaoja golf phoenix oulu fi robert
rec.sport.hockey	re buffalo boston defense in article c ue g j acsu buffalo edu v nnc ubvmsd cc buffalo edu mr bungle writes i d like to see some playoff games since i m stuck in buffalo at ub but i think boston isn t giving up so easy no boston probably won t go down easy but if the sabres hadn t won game one buffalo would have been out in four and what problem are you having with playoff games here in buffalo there s the sabres bruins quebec montreal and whatever espn and abc show and on opposite nights there s toronto detroit and whatever espn abc shows more hockey than a good chunk of north america either side of the border it s wonderful and there are thousands of folks who d kill to be in your shoes coverage wise valerie hammerl john sr would lift pat over the boards grab hammerl acsu buffalo edu his hand and start running around the outside v pwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu faster and faster i wanted to learn how to get that feeling and the only way was to learn how to skate p lafontaine
rec.sport.hockey	re final regular season individual goalie stats what about including points probably no goals at least against opponents but there have been several assists given ian neath there are four kinds of people in this world neath psych purdue edu cretins fools morons and lunatics u eco
rec.sport.hockey	canucks score help i m stuck here at a computer in new jersey and have no access to a radio or tv could someone kindly post the score of the canucks jets game thanks in advance mark
rec.sport.hockey	camera work on televised games is it just me or is the camera work on some of these games really sad i can t remember how many times during the penguins devils game they showed some guy without the puck being checked in the corner while the puck was being fired on goal in fact i think they even missed one goal completely because they were showing two guys holding each other in the corner now the last time i watched a football game they didn t show the lineman going at it while the running back turned the corner for a touchdown is it just me greg
rec.sport.hockey	re sharks review part left wings in article r e d nd apple com chuq apple com chuq von rospach writes nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes dody wood season st acquired rd round pick in entry draft grade i d d although perhaps i shouldn t give a grade at all i have been accused of knocking on wood too much you nah he was seriously unimpressive even as a tough guy his rep however as few games as he had in a season that was at that point meaningless i hate to judge the talent too quickly butn in dody s case i m tempted to make an exception but i won t wood played most of his junior career in seattle he was one of the leading scorers on a mediocre team when he was traded away in he rarely lost a fight and was one of the toughest players in the whl however i was extremely surprised when he was drafted especially in the third round he certainly didn t look like nhl material paul brownlow visualize data i o corp redmond wa whirled paul data io com peas
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl draft in article apr newshub ariel yorku ca cs ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes tampa bay will either go for a russian kozlov i think that s it or a defenseman rob niedemeyer probably spelt the last name wrong rob niedermayer is a forward center i think with the whl medicine hat tigers his brother scott is a defenseman now with the nj devils paul brownlow visualize data i o corp redmond wa whirled paul data io com peas
rec.sport.hockey	espn f ck up okay here s some gripe ing griping whatever i live in santa barbara for reference i think okay abc showed the kings flames fine yawn espn through a fortunate rainout of a baseball game showed the red wings toronto game cool but i swear that the advertisements all week long had said that espn would show pitt nj on tuesday and bos buff on thursday i raced home from work early pacific to catch the game but alas it was the boston buffalo game and then they promised that they would show the pitt nj game on thursday overnight they changed their mind i didn t mind that much i watched the game hockey is much better than no hockey during the game their were no video highlights from the patrick division what the hell was going on at least they should show video highlights of the other games especially the nyi caps game that was so close my father lives in bowling green kentucky bumbf ck egypt got to watch the pens game on espn i just don t get it the biggest problem is that buffalo or boston fans who didn t want to see the pittsburgh new jersey game will turn on their tvs on thursday and see the pittsburgh new jersey game instead of the buffalo boston game at least in my case i just had to wait more days to see my game if i were a big boston or buffalo fan and i missed the game on tuesday due to false advertising on the part of espn i d be mad as hell oh well hopefully we ll get better coverage next year or something matt coohill p s the announcers for the buffalo boston were the worst that i have ever heard as far emotion goes they had the enthusiasm of droopy dog i hope for better on thursday
rec.sport.hockey	re oilers for sale bart splunge uucp barton oleksy writes yadalle cs ualberta ca yadallee dave s writes here s one from the mill the oilers might move to hamilton where porklington can get a free deal given what labour relations and puck has been like it would be a sigh of relief this way w e can can both elements well dave i would have to disagree with you there satan himself could own the team and i d be happy as long as the oilers stayed in edmonton selfish but true i don t want to see the oilers move no matter who their owner is bart bart splunge uucp or barto nait ab ca i too am of the same sentiment bart but realistically this town doesn t want to pay for quality player and hence we are loosing these people left right and center labour is also responsible for their boycott pocklington movement i would like the oilers to stay but realistically given this situation it s bye bye oilers dave shariff yadallee b sc econ math u of alberta yadalle amisk cs ualberta ca god save the queen god bless us all remember jesus saves lives from eternal damnation newfoundland keep good old clyde vote liberal
rec.sport.hockey	re ulf crushes valeri zelepukin in article c xx g newsserver pixel kodak com clare ssd kodak com bill clare writes that more or less says it i flicked the penguins game on briefly and saw ulf cross check valeri in the face i am wondering if don cherry is going to go off on this at all in coach s corner nah cherry will only spew if ulf was nailing a good canadian boy what an idiot if this is the heart and soul of canadian patriotism then someone needs a new hobby dr d the devils advocate drinkin women guns don t mix v p nk ubvms cc buffalo edu awkorbut acsu buffalo edu mark arm
rec.sport.hockey	nhl playoff results for games played april nhl playoff results for games played april conference semi finals best of seven patrick adams norris smythe nj buf leads stl leads win pit leads bos chi van leads nyi leads mon tor la was que leads det leads cal tied detroit red wings lead series toronto maple leafs dave andreychuk scored his first two playoff goals for toronto and felix potvin stopped of red wing shots as the maple leafs won their first win in the series first period toronto andreychuk foligno gilmour toronto andreychuk gilmour second period detroit fedorov coffey sheppard pp third period toronto clark gilmour mironov pp toronto pearson clark cullen detroit chiasson konstantinov fedorov shots on goal detroit toronto power play opportunities detroit of toronto of goalies detroit cheveldae shots saves toronto potvin a referee mark faucette linesmen kevin collins brian murphy chicago blackhawks st louis blues lead series curtis joseph blanked the blackhawks for the second straight game and brett hull scored a goal and added an assist to lead the blues to a series lead chicago hasn t scored in of play since brian noonan s hat trick goal in game first period st louis janney hull brown pp second period st louis hull miller third period st louis emerson felsner shanahan shots on goal chicago st louis power play opportunities chicago of st louis of goalies chicago belfour shots saves st louis joseph a referee dan marouelli linesmen randy mitton shane heyer vancouver canucks lead series winnipeg jets teemu selanne broke out of his mini slump with a hat trick including the game winner to lead the jets to a victory trevor linden and pavel bure each scored twice for the losing canucks first period winnipeg tkachuk housley winnipeg selanne housley shannon pp vancouver bure winnipeg selanne shannon housley pp second period vancouver linden ronning lumme vancouver linden adams slegr pp third period winnipeg borsato steen sh winnipeg selanne shannon vancouver bure babych lidster shots on goal vancouver winnipeg power play opportunities vancouver of winnipeg of goalies vancouver mclean shots saves winnipeg essensa a referee kerry fraser linesmen gord broseker dan schachte calgary flames lead series los angeles kings boxscore tomorrow saturday april washington at ny islanders ny islanders lead series pm est boston at buffalo buffalo leads series pm est quebec at montreal quebec leads series pm est sunday april pittsburgh at new jersey pittsburgh leads series pm est chicago at st louis st louis leads series pm est calgary at los angeles calgary leads series pm est detroit at toronto detroit leads series pm est vancouver at winnipeg vancouver leads series pm est jpc john p curcio go bruins philips laboratories jpc philabs philips com scarborough road briarcliff manor ny
rec.sport.hockey	re thumbs up to espn in article apr wuecl wustl edu jca cec wustl edu joseph charles achkar says it was nice to see espn show game between the wings and leafs since the cubs and astros got rained out instead of showing another baseball game they decided on the stanley cup playoffs a classy move by espn it was a classy move but it looks like espn is going to devote most of the coverage to the pens on tuesday night they continued to broadcast the pen devil game even though pittsburgh had the game well in control granted they did show some bonus coverage of the caps and isles but they cut away from the close game which went into double ot to update us on the fifth goal of the rout thursday was a good game even if it was the second straight game between the pens and devils imho they should program some variety into the telecasts yes i know the game shown on saturday is between the b s and sabres probably throwing a bone to us bruin fans and what about the cambell conference i d like to see a game in the norris or smythe why not have back to back nights of national hockey night just a thought ryan a l l e z l e s b l u e s
rec.sport.hockey	nhl playoff leaders with penalty mins as of april player team gp g a pts pim m lemieux pit francis pit oates bos yzerman det coffey det d hunter was mogilny buf thomas nyi lapointe que johansson was carson la brown stl fleury cal g courtnall van flatley nyi macinnis cal ferraro nyi mceachern pit neely bos turgeon nyi bellows mon jagr pit khmylev buf khristich was hawerchuk buf hogue nyi juneau bos k stevens pit l murphy pit lafontaine buf ramsey pit smehlik buf noonan chi gilmour tor hull stl otto cal reichel cal bure van drake det linden van nieuwendyk cal roberts cal young que b sweeney buf s stevens nj tocchet pit carpenter was j mullen pit ronning van suter cal yawney cal adams van chiasson det craven van cullen tor dahlquist cal king win racine det rychel la shanahan stl sheppard det sydor la barnes win emerson stl gill tor granato la gretzky la housley win janney stl king nyi kozlov det sandstrom la shuchuk la vaske nyi damphousse mon elynuik was guerin nj hannan buf holik nj muller mon sakic que semak nj sundin que taglianetti pit tipett pit barasso pit bondra was carney buf cavallini was desjardins mon duchesne que niedermayer nj ricci que ridley was u samuelsson pit blake la borschevsky tor zelepukin nj b mullen nyi burr det domi win fedorov det felsner stl howe det huddy la kurri la lefebvre tor lidstrom det lowry stl mcsorley la millen la mironov tor numminen win paslawski cal steen win ysebaert det anderson tor berube cal chelios chi ciccarelli det clark tor dahl cal dipietro mon donnelly la ellett tor gallant det k brown chi kennedy det larmer chi matteau chi mclean van mcrae stl murzyn van musil cal pearson tor primeau det probert det ranheim cal robitaille la roenick chi selanne win shannon win skrudland cal sutter chi taylor la zhitnik la barr nj bourque bos burridge was dionne mon heinze bos leschyshyn que presley buf rucinsky que smolinski bos wood buf brunet mon daniels pit donato bos driver nj gusarov que houlder buf k samuelsson pit kamensky que krygier was loney pit may was miller was odelein mon pivonka was shaw bos straka pit belanger mon chorske nj druce win eagles win errey buf ewen mon foligno tor goulet chi grimson chi hughes bos kovalenko que leeman mon mcllwain tor osbourne tor richer nj roberge mon schneider mon watters la weimer bos andreychuk tor ashton cal babych van baron stl bassen stl baumgartner tor bautin win belfour chi berg tor billington nj blue bos borsato win bozon stl butcher stl cheveldae det conacher la corkum buf diduck van dirk van erickson win essensa win gilbert chi graham chi hardy la hedican stl hrudey la j lemieux chi johansson cal joseph stl kasatonov nj kennedy win konstantinov det krushelnyski tor lidster van lumme van macoun tor marchment chi miller stl momesso van moog bos muni chi murphy chi murray chi nedved van olausson win pearson que potvin tor quintal stl ramage mon ri sutter stl rouse tor russell chi ruuttu chi s richer bos s smith chi sandlak van semenov van stern cal t hunter van t sweeney bos terreri nj tkachuk win ulanov win valk van vernon cal wilson stl zezel tor zhamnov win zombo stl albelin nj anderson was audette buf bodger buf brisebois mon c lemieux nj carbonneau mon cavallini que cote was d sweeney bos daigneault mon dalgarno nyi daneyko nj douris bos fetisov nj finn que fitzgerald nyi foote que fuhr buf g roberts bos haller mon hatcher was healy nyi hextall que hough que iafrate was jennings pit jones was kasparaitis nyi keane mon kimble bos krupp nyi kvartalnov bos leclair mon leach bos lebeau mon ledyard buf loiselle nyi maclean nj malakov nyi may buf mckay nj nicholls nj nolan que norton nyi patterson buf pilon nyi poulin bos roy mon savard mon simon que stapleton pit stastny nj sutton buf t green nyi tabaracci was vukota nyi wesley bos wolanin que maurice richard
rec.sport.hockey	re sharks jack feirerra was re sharks kingston fired mre teal eng sun com mike eisler writes i ve been a loyal ticket holder since day literally in spring of when the team was announced and i m not getting that loyalty returned well so are we and we see it completely different than you guess it s a matter of perspective chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants a san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.hockey	blues shutout hawks again lead series blues shutout hawks again lead series it was a great atmosphere last night at the st louis arena as joseph and the blues shutout the hawks for the second consecutive game people were cheering the blues long before face off time and they kept going for the entire game my friends and i went out celebrating until the early morning hours with some of the players here s a game summary from the st louis post disptach enjoy by dave luecking of the post dispatch staff at p m friday night the arena crowd of paid homage to blues goalie curtis joseph the fans began bowing their arms extended taking the the lead from a fan who held a sign that read only god saves more than joseph it was a fitting tribute to joseph who has brought the blues to the verge of a surprising sweep joseph recorded his second successive shutout friday blanking the blackhawks in game of the norris division semifinals and giving the blues a lead in the best of seven series the blackhawks haven t scored against joseph since the mark of the second period of game joseph has shut out the blackhawks for minutes seconds a blues record jacques plante held the previous record of set in the first round of the playoffs against the philadelphia flyers one of only two series the blues have sweeped in their history the blues can wrap up their first sweep since with a victory in game a nationally televised game that begins at noon sunday the blues have had only two sweeps in franchise history both in when they swept philadelphia and los angeles en route to the stanley cup finals the shutout friday was easier than on wednesday in game when joseph had to make saves this time the blues held the shots down to and the blackhawks couldn t touch joseph well they touched joseph numerous times shoving him and pushing him at every opportunity to try to get him off his game but joseph and the blues were unfazed dishing out their own punishment along the way the blues grinders bob bassen rich sutter kevin miller and dave lowry wore down the blackhawks taking the visitors from chicago off their game the grinders set the stage for the glamour boys the gifted playmakers and scorers who made the most of their opportunities craig janney brett hull and nelson emerson scored getting one goal in each period hull assisted on janney s first period power play goal after two unwise chicago penalties checker miller set up hull s goal in the second period and rookie denny felsner assisted for emerson who scored at of the final period blues fans jumped to their feet in celebration of that goal and began yelling sweep sweep sweep they also taunted chicago goalie ed belfour bell four bell four they also chanted na na na na hey hey good bye such talk is a tad premature there s still one game left but the blues are on a roll they have the blackhawks on their heels the blues set the tone early on friday with two crunching hits in the first minute of play rich sutter leveled bryan marchment and brendan shanahan dumped steve smith at center ice chicago tried to retaliate but troy murray s decision to run into joseph backfired referee dan marouelli gave him a roughing penalty the blues didn t get a shot on goal on the power play and they survived a scare after chicago killed the penalty when rick zombo gave the puck away to steve larmer joseph stopped larmer s shot and everything else chicago threw at him in the first period the hawks ignored the scouting report on joseph about shooting high and continued to shoot low where joseph s butterfly style is deadly rookie bret hedican picked up three consecutive penalties midway through the period two for hooking and one for holding but chicago got only two shots on goal as many as miller the blues penalty killer twice stole the puck and just missed on good scoring chances against belfour marouelli began calling penalties on the blackhawks to even things up he caught brent sutter hooking shanahan four seconds after hedican s third penalty he called marchment for elbowing janney along the boards at and gave the blues a two man advantage later when christian ruuttu slashed shanahan the blues worked around the puck on the ensuing power play and hull got it where he likes it in the high slot hull s shot hit belfour s right shoulder and the puck bounced precariously close to the goal line belfour dived back to cover but the puck squirted loose to janney who poked it into the net at for his first goal of the playoffs the blues continued their relentless hitting as the period ended and the blackhawks lost their composure joe murphy tripped ron wilson with two seconds remaining in the period and after time had expired smith upset the blues by shooting the puck into the blues bench chris chelios made a move toward joseph as the teams left the ice and marouelli slapped him with a minute misconduct chicago survived the blues power play but the loss of chelios hurt he didn t return until the midway point of the period and within three minutes of his return hull had increased the blues lead to deflecting in miller s crisp pass try as they might the blackhawks couldn t get to joseph who stopped everything they could throw at him he stopped shots in the second period and more in the third chicago also hit the goalpost twice emerson s goal put the game away he went hard to the net and redirected felsner s pass a l l e z l e s b l u e s joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	re espn tell us about it in article r l fc usenet ins cwru edu mac po cwru edu michael a cornell writes the usa today says late this year the question is will hockey be moved to espn permenantly or will it be where they have a game of the week on espn and have a bunch of other games on espn yes and no espn will be launched as early in september cap cities are currently working with cable companies to ensure a good start up base needed for a launch for any brand new cable service the problem espn faces is the tci cablevision connection in the merger of their prime and sportschannel networks prime sportschannel will try to wrestle away nhl from espn in the off season also tci and cablevision have control a large number of cable systems around the country with a total of million subscribers tci cablevision will do their best that espn never gets off the ground successfully and the nhl s value will suddenly skyrocket in this cable war between prime sc and espn nhl is more vital to the survival of a regionalized prime sportschannel since they virtually have no national major league sports contracts and only cover local nhl nba mlb sports teams ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl team captains in article apr mtroyal ab ca writes and while we are on the subject has a captain ever been traded resigned or been striped of his title during the season any other team captain trivia would be appreciated brad mccrimmon was the captain of the flames when he was traded to detroit following the season this was during the off season though there s countless examples of captains being traded i m sure yeah i think that the flames and the flyers traded captains once mel bridgeman for brad marsh craig
rec.sport.hockey	re espn tell us about it nhmas gauss med harvard edu mark shneyder writes the problem espn faces is the tci cablevision connection in the merger of their prime and sportschannel networks prime sportschannel will try to wrestle away nhl from espn in the off season also tci and cablevision have control a large number of cable systems around the country with a total of million subscribers tci cablevision will do their best that espn never gets off the ground successfully and the nhl s value will suddenly skyrocket in this cable war between prime sc and espn nhl is more vital to the survival of a regionalized prime sportschannel since they virtually have no national major league sports contracts and only cover local nhl nba mlb sports teams note that this ominous prospect is fueled by the fact that various sc and prime outlets are wholly or partly owned by local nhl owners when if cablevision vp chuck dolan s purchase of the islanders goes through the islanders will be back solidly in the scny fold their original owners were and they ve remained due to a lucrative tv contract the flyer snyders own the philadelphia sc as well as the prism pay channel there are six teams affiliated with regional sc s another half dozen affiliated with prime outlets and other locals like hts and nesn who have barter arrangements with all this cross ownership i was surprised that espn got the deal this season gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	leafs revenge tonight will see the toronto maple leafs as some have guessed come out hitting the buds will grind detroit into the ground and walk away with home ice advantage for the remainder of the series which given a shift to toronto will not last long keep in mind this is only a predicition wendall will have to get into the game however otherwise probert will dominate on the physical front
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl playoff results for games played april in article apr philabs philips com jpc philabs philips com john p curcio writes nhl playoff results for games played april conference semi finals best of seven patrick adams norris smythe nyi leads mon tor la was que leads det leads cal tied o k people so it s not tied i meant leads shoot me if you must jpc john p curcio go bruins philips laboratories jpc philabs philips com scarborough road briarcliff manor ny
rec.sport.hockey	college hockey all star game roster someone asked about the rosters for the college hockey senior all star shrine game held in orono maine earlier this month west derek plante minn duluth west mvp of the game greg johnson n dakota bryan smolinski mich st fred knipscheer st cloud state chris campbell wisconsin superior glenn lang uw superior chris bergeron miami joe cook miami jamie erb bemidiji brett harkins bowling green david roberts michigan todd trettier uw stevens point john young mich tech brett hauer minn duluth pat neaton michigan barry richter wisconsin mike smith lssu chris valicevic st mary s shaun gravistin ak anchorage goalie tom newman minnesota bryan schoen denver ron mason mich st coach steve nelson uw superior jim knapp minn duluth east jack duffy yale chris foy n eastern scott meehan mass lowell aaron miller vermont kevin o sullivan bu chris potter connecticut ray alcindor middlebury greg carvel st lawrence bob cowan providence steve dubinksy clarkson dan gravelle merrimack ryan hughes cornell mark kauffman yale matt mallgrave harvard chris mcgee babson scott mcnair rit jim montgomery maine david sacco bu chris rogles clarkson goalie east s mvp of the game garth snow maine grant wood hamilton brian durocher brown coach shawn walsh maine bruce marshalll connecticut these are the original rosters there may have been a few changes for the actual game guys not being able to participate or whatever bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey ny division ii state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	ahl playoff results thurs fri ahl playoff scores first round home team in caps games played on thurs rochester utica ot games played on fri binghamton baltimore moncton st john s ot springfield providence series stati plural of status adirondack defeated cdi springfield leads providence binghamton leads baltimore rochester leads utica st john s leads moncton cape breton leads fredericton bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey ny division ii state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	re oiler s rumour team moving press conference next week allan cs ualberta ca allan sullivan writes i heard a story on the local sports news broadcast in edmonton oiler owner peter pocklington will be holding a press conference next week while the exact details are not known it is believed to concern the oiler s future rumour has it that pocklington signed a tentative lease arrangement with copps collesium in hamilton during the press conference pocklington may announce the deal it is quite possible that the deal may simply be a way to force edmonton northlands to renegotiate the oiler lease on the stadium northlands has offered to buy the oilers for million earlier but the offer was rejected immediately by pocklington as for me my opinion is divided edmonton has been fairly supportive of the oilers even though they re a small market team they had many sellouts in the s even with the problems that the team had this year they still brought in more fans than many teams in larger cities did on the other hand if the team does move there is no place more deserving than hamilton of course how would that affect the grand realignment scheme of bettman following up on this the provincial government has been asked by the opposition to block any deal that pocklington is offering to hamilton the government said that pock is going nowhere why don t i believe the government wasn t it pocklington who wanted to be tory leader years ago dave shariff yadallee b sc econ math u of alberta yadallee ersys edmonton ab ca god save the queen god bless us all remember jesus saves lives from eternal damnation newfoundland keep good old clyde vote liberal
rec.sport.hockey	calder cup schedule full calder cup playoff schedule and results home team in caps if necesary first round springfield indians vs providence bruins gm springfield providence gm springfield providence gm providence springfield gm providence springfield gm springfield providence gm providence at springfield gm springfield at providence cd islanders vs adirondack red wings gm adirondack cdi gm adirondack cdi gm adirondack cdi gm adirondack cdi adirondack wins series baltimore skipjacks at binghamton rangers gm baltimore binghamton gm binghamton baltimore gm binghamton baltimore gm binghamton at baltimore gm baltimore at binghamton gm binghmaton at baltimore gm baltimore at binghamton utica devils vs rochester americans gm utica rochester ot gm rochester utica gm rochester utica gm rochester utica ot gm utica at rochester gm rochester at utica gm utica at rochester moncton hawks vs st john s maple leafs gm st john s moncton at halifax gm st john s moncton at halifax gm st john s moncton gm moncton st john s ot gm moncton vs st john s at halifax gm st john s at moncton gm moncton vs st john s at halifax cape breton oilers vs fredericton canadiens gm fredericton cape breton ot gm cape breton fredericton gm cape breton fredericton gm cape breton fredericton ot gm cape breton at fredericton gm fredericton at cape breton gm cape breton at fredericton note about this series the ap reports that cb has won this series but in the original schedule game wasn t supposed to be until tonight and i only have the oilers as being up bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey ny division ii state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	re potvin and his stick in article netnews upenn edu kkeller mail sas upenn edu keith keller writes i prefer to watch hockey than seeing shots of felix potvin slashing and spearing dino ciccerelli standing in front of the net he has every right to stand in front of the net just not in the crease yes he does but the goalie sure as hell doesn t want him there when i played roller hockey boy do i miss those days as a goalie i would scream at my defense to clear guys out of the slot i don t care if he s in the crease or not get him the hell away from me so i can see the ball yes roller hockey remember and if there was nobody around to clear the slot then i d do it myself by pushing the offending player hard i hate people in my way when i m the goalie and i am sure felix does too i should say that i didn t see the incident so if potvin really swung the stick big time then that s not right but he can move people out of the way he s a player on the ice too you know keith keller let s go rangers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs in this corner let s go quakers weighing in at almost every weight imaginable life and all that surrounds it blues traveler i have to agree wholeheartedly with this view i don t like to see stickwork but you have to clear players away from in front my personal favorite move i m a goalie too is to give the offeding player a good whack on the back of their skates when the ref isn t looking makes em go down like a ton of bricks but doesn t cause injuries unless they don t know how to fall i m talking about hitting the blades here not the foot it also makes the player you hit and anyone who sees really mad and apt to take a stupid retaliation penalty unfortunately it also leaves your blocker out of position for a short time i don t do this if a shot is likely on the short side hmm maybe i should mail potvin this method in french and with helpful diagrams of course it sure would be nice to see ciccerelli who i have a great deal of respect for btw he s not a big guy but he plays huge fall on his back a few times barfly
rec.sport.hockey	they re real and they re spectacular they re real and they re spectacular the blues shutout the blackhawks in consecutive playoff games if the blues sweep the hawks on sunday i will launch a broom onto the ice in the last seconds of the game not that there s anything wrong with that curtis joseph has been the master of his own domain and the hawks have been shooting the puck like a bunch of chuckers not even superman could play any better in goal joseph must have been eating his cereal it s like a sauna in here said a spectator about the hot atmosphere and the wild crowd at the arena it was very refreshing to see the blues double dip the hawks the hawks goons tried to pick on hull janney and joseph but the blues checking line nipped those hawks real well the fat yoyoma will sing on sunday and the hawks will head to the beach the hawks trip back to chicago will feel like a long journey from milan to minsk enjoy sunday s game with some junior mints and wash them down with a snapple just a little fun a l l e z l e s b l u e s joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	re stan fischler in article apr news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes roger neilson is not property among other rumours he s now the candidate to coach the flyers and will bring along colin campbell as his assistant this would be dumb move of the nineties lindros is big and strong but why give him a ball and chain on one leg and an anchor on the other to drag along compuware is actively scouting phoenix for a new team in hey nick and jimmy buy the devils and fix them here please gld not if pocklington gets there first actually if pocklington doesn t get a better deal he would probably go to hamilton taking the team out of canada would get the whole country mad at him taking the team to hamilton wouldn t get anybody mad at him that isn t mad at him already and would make him a lot of friends in southern ontario so many that the whining of the stupid politicians in edmonton and the fickle spoiled fans wouldn t be noticed at all edmonton would wallow in anonymnity gerald
rec.sport.hockey	don s nickname grapes was re don cherry help me out here georgeh gjhsun george h writes lmarsha cms cc wayne edu laurie marshall writes don got his nickname grapes but i m not sure don use to coach the boston bruins i don t know exactly when that was could someone fill me in on this info i think that the name grapes came because as coach for the bruins or in the minors he used to chew on grapes to keep from getting dehydrated during the games his dog blue may have been named cause he liked labatts beer anyone know about that according to quotations from chairman cherry don was playing in springfield he and another player had to pay some fines the other player had his paid off but not don didn t want to don called the other player a teacher s pet and the other player replied ah that s just sour grapes don t know how accurate that is but that s what s printed
rec.sport.hockey	leafs win thank you potvin it s about time the boys got it together they were outworked and outplayed by the wings in the first two games but burns must have kicked their behinds cause they sure came out in full gear or is that high gear in game except for a minute stretch in the nd period they outskated and outworked the wings please don t flame this statement cos you know it s true i have to admit that goaltending was the key potvin kept the leafs ahead during the sleepy stretch the leafs went through in the nd he also kept the rebounds to a minimum something that cost cheveldae goals clark even looked like he had stopped moping first star although i still don t know why he was so flat in games and if the leafs play the same style and can keep the pace they had in game they may actually have a chance of winning this series a slim chance but a chance i m no rm where is he anyways haha barfly
rec.sport.hockey	ahl leafs back home apparently the public workers strike in st john s newfoundland is over the strike has since mid january forced the st john s maple leafs hockey team to play their home games in other cities such as toronto cornwall and charlottetown they have been playing their playoff home games in halifax nova scotia leafs management said that they could return to st john s for the second round bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey ny division ii state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	interview guests have you ever noticed that after a hockey player has been interviewed in between periods on a tv game that they usually get a goal or an assist can you explain this or is it that they usually talk to stars more than regular players which explains the hight percentage of results after just wondering how everybody else thinks about this or if they dont care about this trivial nonsense ttyl tom tom moffat victoria b c canada
rec.sport.hockey	sabres bruins buffalo fans some people in the discussion group as well as commentator al on espn believe that game is critical for the sabres helloooo the sabres are ahead games to not behind as a life long sabres fan i am well aware of their ability to choke but let s not exaggerate that as long as the sabres win one of the next games be it game or game they are still in good shape ahead games to with game to be played at buffalo if they lose games three and four then start worrying game is critical for boston not buffalo rob andolina randolin polisci umn edu
rec.sport.hockey	re buffalo boston defense in article apr alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes fuhr is proving the fuhr bashers wrong but boston is an awfully good team yeh but biran sutter s playoff record as the head coach in st l wasn t very impressive his blues teams were eliminated very early in the playoffs it doesn t look like this trend will change with the bruins bruins have never come back to win after falling behind in their entire year history it doesn t look like buffalo will just lose their next two games at the aud with the way fuhr has been standing on his head basically the bruins will be on the golf course by next weekend also it seems like the whole boston area has gone baseball crazy after an incredibly great start by the red sox best record in their major leagues as of now i would say that of the callers to the bruins flagship station sportsradio are talking about the red sox about are yapping about the patriots upcoming draft are on the celtics and about are on the bruins somehow no one around here is really schocked the way bruins are folding early ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	upcoming tv schedule hey guess what s coming to espn for a change a playoff which doesn t involve the pens not that there is anything wrong with that espn games thursday game pens at devils at gary thorne and bill clement saturday game caps at ny isles at tom mees and john davidson abc game sunday game pens at devils at gary thorne and bill clement espn named its broadcast team on tuesday it paired tom mees play by play with john davidson analyst ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	some play offs thoughts well we re almost halfway through the first round and so far things are good in general the teams that i hate most chicago and basten are down zip even though there is a possibility either can still win their series yet this ego thrashing and arrogance smashing by the underdogs st louis and buffalo is so rewarding montreal is at this stage in a team s life where they are not good enough to go all the way yet too good to be able to get some really good draft picks is it just me or does anyone out there also think that this year the cup final should be played between teams from the wales is it just because they re playing montreal that i find the diques arrogant s or are they really smythe what i m really getting sick of seeing douggie and wendel night in and night out we should see some canucks jets flames action don cherry is an alright but hey so are our politicians obleafsjoke q what do you get when you cross a maple leaf and a groundhog a six more weeks of crummy hockey l r dudes go habs gooooooooooooooooooo jon shaib ac carleton freenet ca
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl draft in article apr newshub ariel yorku ca cs ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes in article io maine maine edu jon carr io maine maine edu writes when is the draft this year and will there be any coverage i know the upcomming nfl draft is on espn anyone got the details paul kariya pick no perhaps he won t last long i don t know the exact coverage in the states in canada it is covered by tsn so maybe espn will grab their coverage i don t know as for the picks ottawa picks which means it is almost that alexander daigle will go he ll either stay or be traded in montreal or quebec imo i would take kariya he should alot of leadership in the ncaa and so far in the world championships daigle didn t show this for his junior team san jose will then get kariya tampa bay will either go for a russian kozlov i think that s it or a defenseman rob niedemeyer probably spelt the last name wrong the sharks appear to be leaning toward picking rob niedermayer a center his brother scott is a defenseman picked by nj a couple years ago they brought him in for a physical tryout a week or so ago from what i have read niedermayer is the best skater in the draft plays both offense and defense and isn t afraid of physical play defensively the sharks are looking pretty good in terms of defense prospects rathje sykora ragnarsson and our centers kisio et al are getting old with all of the small players the sharks have i justs can t see them picking yet another small player like kariya he d just get bashed by the oppposition and get a separated shoulder mark
rec.sport.hockey	re espn in article randolin polisci umn edu randolin polisci umn edu robert andolina writes the thing that confuses me most about espn is that they decided to show the penguins and devils again on thursday night being that both of the first two games were dominated by pitt you would think that they would show a different game this is in addition to the fact that they should show other games just for the sake of fair exposure espn must have some very poor marketing people they are only concerned with featuring players i e mario than featuring good competitive hockey also some of you should know that as far as i can tell espn is not going to show campbell conference games regularly in the first two rounds i believe that they are only going to show campbell games in the first two rounds as those series wear on games or perhaps games i ve heard that this is because most of their market is east coast and hence would prefer the wales stuff also don t expect canadian teams on espn in summary if you want to see a network that provides good hockey coverage watch cbc from canada they may be biased toward canadian teams but they don t treat the viewers like idiots they provide nice updates and don cherry will always provide a few laughs
rec.sport.hockey	re espn cares less about hockey in article apr vax cns muskingum edu jbrown vax cns muskingum edu writes espn is pathetic i have been watching everybody complain about espn s coverage and i agree with all of you might i suggest that we are getting all worked up over nothing we all knew that espn s coverage was going to suck i mean have you ever watched during the regular season sportscenter coverage of hockey it sucks i mean really sucks espn does not know hockey if it shot them in the ass i was really pissed of about last night coverage i go to school in ohio i know the indians suck so why show them if i were bill clement i would shoot myself anyway after i calmed down after i realized that they were not going to show overtime of the caps isles game i thought to myself i knew that this was going to happen in fact i remerbed myself praying that at least they would keep even the boring devils game overall i think espn does not care if they show hockey or not and i firmly belive that they have know respect for the fans ie because of contract obligations screw you espn praise be to all hockey fans who put up with this shit go hawks this is the price hockey fans have to pay for the mistake of leaving espn or years ago it will take time to correct for that mistake but returning to espn was the correct decision last year by next time we may have the potential for sportschannel and espn to really compete to offer better coverage and be forced to deliver on it gerald
rec.sport.hockey	what s up in rochester here we are with the sabres up to the bruins and the sabres farm team the rochester amerks on their way to the calder cup urp and what kind of hockey coverage are we getting the same penguins devils every other day crap that everyone else gets what s worse the sportschannel coverage of the islanders appears to be blocked out since we got cba basketball last night if you can believe it i assume the sabres are demanding the sc blackout not espn since we are unbelievably usually considered part of the islanders territory msg coverage of the rangers is blacked out here this despite being a solid seven hours plus from long island does anyone know what grc is doing besides putting their satellite dish up their ass and screwing my reception of channels and did empire demand a fortune for the games what about the games on fox or whatever number it is there in buffalo has anyone phoned to complain besides me george george ferguson arpa ferguson cs rochester edu dept of computer science uucp rutgers rochester ferguson university of rochester vox rochester ny fax
rec.sport.hockey	re grant fuhr leads sabres in article apr wuecl wustl edu jca cec wustl edu joseph charles achkar writes buffalo is up is the series with boston and the reason grant fuhr fuhr is playoff hungry and he s proving once again why they call him money goaltender fuhr might not be one of the best goaltenders in the league anymore statistically at least but he s proving that he can make the big save at the right time the leafs should have kept fuhr and probably would have had a chance against powerhouse detroit but again where was andreychoke in game i applauded the sabres for making the deal to get fuhr specifically because i thought it would help them win at least one playoff series however i don t think the leafs can be faulted either there is nothing to say that felix won t be winning playoff series by himself in years to come anyway does anybody else find it ironic that fuhr is up against moog or at least he was until a guy named alex showed up
rec.sport.hockey	re radio stations co cleveland freenet edu theodore g benjamin writes in messge on mon apr greanias texas mitre org steve greanias wrote i do not have cable and on the nights the caps don t play i would like to tune in other games does anyone have a list of the radio stations which broadcast the games for the nhl teams here are the ones i can remember offhand kdka am pittsburgh penguins lori the regular penguins poster here on rec sport hockey indicated to me via e mail that on the nights that pirates baseball and penguins playoff games coincide the pens will be covered on wdve fm wabc am new jersey devils wbbm am chicago blackhawks wjm am detroit redwings this is wjr in detroit and it s am however as i neglected to mention in my earlier response to this thread on the nights when the tigers baseball games coincide with the wings playoff games the wings will be carried on wllz fm
rec.sport.hockey	re espn thumbs up your in article apr wkuvx bitnet kozloce wkuvx bitnet writes aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaauuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugggggggggggggggg oh guess what the score is now penguins switch games you and guess which game espn is showing in my area on thursday yep pens devils there are so many other interesting series who cares about mario mike
rec.sport.hockey	re if you were pat burns borchevsky is and gilmour is i think gilmour slightly outweighs borchevsky andreychuk is also about i think susan teeheehee oops
rec.sport.hockey	re espn f ck up in article wavefront wti com matthew wavefront wti com matt coohill writes espn through a fortunate rainout of a baseball game showed the red wings toronto game cool but i swear that the advertisements all week long had said that espn would show pitt nj on tuesday and bos buff on thursday i raced home from work early pacific to catch the game but alas it was the boston buffalo game and then they promised that they would show the pitt nj game on thursday overnight they changed their mind what the hell are u talking about espn showed pens devils game as advertised but the morons at espn should know that pens will kick devils ass and the game will be boring i d rather see boston buffalo game which seems to be an exciting series since noone had expected buffalo to get past the first round well let s hope they change their mind on thu s game and show some other game the pens series is really getting boring i want to see some exciting game no matter who wins if nhl wants a major network contract then they better put some brains in espn people experience is what makes a person make new mistakes instead of old one e mail cobra chopin udel edu
rec.sport.hockey	don cherry coach s corner summary april here s a summary of don cherry s coach s corner from april the game being broadcast in my region was la and calgary although i think it was filmed during the toronto detroit game that night warning anti fighting people may want to skip this post topics don s tie grant fuhr penalties wings vs leafs fighting dale hunter episode summary this episode began with the camera zoomed in on don s tie don was pointing out the characters on the tie bugs bunny foghorn leghorn and yosemite sam who don called lanny macdonald ron maclean began by mentioning that don was almost evicted from a hotel where he was watching the previous night s games because of all the yelling and cheering he was doing over the play of hunter and fuhr don began to praise fuhr calling him the greatest goalie and said that he s winning the series against boston all by himself he then showed clips from earlier episodes nov jan when fuhr was still with the leafs and don advised don t trade fuhr don went on to predict that if buffalo gets by boston it would be fuhr who wins the series muckler took a lot of heat for the trade but don feels muckler s been vindicated the next topic involved how playoff games are being ruined by too many penalty calls he showed a clip from a winnipeg vancouver game where domi hit a vancouver player and was given a min penalty ron said that it was called a penalty because his stick was involved but don stuck with the opinion that it was a good hit with domi hitting the vancouver player with his shoulder don its sad what they re doing for hockey a minute penalty for a nosebleed next they went to the playoff series between detroit and toronto people in detroit were calling wendel clarke wendy for not fighting however don pointed out that probert was not fighting either this lead don into a tirad about fighting and stickwork and how banning fighting leads to more high sticking it s like college hockey the little wee guy with the visor is brave as anybody that s why you re seeing so much stickwork because they know you won t drop your gloves and give them a shot the rules are made by people who don t know what s going on in hockey the final topic don discussed was dale hunter don pointed out that he was leading the league in goals and showed a clip of hunter from a previous game when he was younger hunter was taught to play to win which differs from today s idea of just letting kids have fun at then end of the episode they showed a clip from a coach s corner with the tape on fast forward so that don sounded like one of the chipmunks rating typical anti fighting posturing not too much humour but some good quotes i d give it a out of allan sullivan allan cs ualberta ca department of computing science university of alberta edmonton alberta canada my opinions are mine and mine alone it is amazing how much can be accomplished if no one cares who gets the credit u of a golden bears hockey motto c drake
rec.sport.hockey	don cherry coach s corner summary april here s a summary of don cherry s coach s corner from april it was taken from a tape delay of a vancouver winnipeg game but it was filmed during the toronto detroit game that night i think it was also shown during the calgary la game warning anti fighting people may want to skip this post topics don s tie doug gilmour wings leafs quebec montreal boston buffalo wendel clark fighting and stickwork episode summary once again the episode started with a shot of don s tie this was a different tie than last time don pointed out some of the characters on the tie but gave them different names felix the cat sylverster maclean daffy duck etc ron maclean asked don what he thought of the current wings leafs game don thought it was good burns told the leaf players they won in their building we re going to win in ours don then began to praise gilmour again don pointed out that gilmour has never got less than points or a goal in any game since he got points in a game against st louis don also claims that he gave a lot of encouragement to gilmour which was partly responsible for his good play several clips were then shown of gilmour from the series a hit on constantinov and a pass to andrewchuk resulting in a goal on the game itself the wings were taking a lot of penalties in the first period the wings have enough talent to score short handed however and when the leafs get a power play coach burns tells the leaf players don t let them score on you ron brought up the previous quebec montreal game note montreal won that game in overtime despite having a possible game winner disqualified because it was batted in with a high stick don thought the high stick was obvious even without the use of instant replay on the buffalo boston series note buffalo is currently winning the series don gave full credit to goaltender grant fuhr fuhr should be getting the team s playoff checks for his play wendel clarke has recently been criticized for his performance during the detroit toronto series don defended him by saying that he can t play the way he should because of the league s new rules this used to be a rough and tough league now its all hack and slash don lays the blame on gil stien for the problems don s opinions on fighting and stickwork are shared by wings gm and coach bryan murray a clip from a news conference by murray was shown in which murray made statements claiming the elimination of fighting increases stickwork don also read a newspaper article in which murray makes the following statements players don t fight because they re afraid of getting thrown out of the game as instigator instead they settle grudges by getting their sticks and slicing each other is this what the fans want to see i guarantee there wouldn t be as many slashes if fighting were kept in the game don warned league commisioner gary bettman to smarten up with fighting in hockey he went on to say that before there used to be one guy cut with a high stick in a series now with no fights someone gets cut every period rating typical anti fighting posturing but here don s opinion is supported by murray i d give it a out of
rec.sport.hockey	re espn in article randolin polisci umn edu randolin polisci umn edu robert andolina writes the thing that confuses me most about espn is that they decided to show the penguins and devils again on thursday night being that both of the first two games were dominated by pitt you would think that they would show a different game this is in addition to the fact that they should show other games just for the sake of fair exposure also some of you should know that as far as i can tell espn is not going to show campbell conference games regularly in the first two rounds i believe that they are only going to show campbell games in the first two rounds as those series wear on games or perhaps games also does anyone have info on abc coverage for this sunday espn had an advertise for pens devils game i don t know what the hell they are trying to do especially against nfl draft well i guess there goes the nhl ratings for sundays game robert andolina randolin polisci umn edu
rec.sport.hockey	re sharks kingston fired snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes in article r v n klh morrow stanford edu steve sep stanford edu steve cole writes i think the three headed gm s guiding principle was to keep veterans in favor of youngsters only if they offered a significant advantage doesn t sound like a bad strategy to me no and in fact that was ferreira s original strategy which the troika proceeded to simply continue to implement there wasn t exactly a radical shift in policy when he was ousted something people seem to forget the only real question is whether they did it as well as ferreira could have if he stayed or whether the basic strategy was flawed since ferreira has been quoated as saying he s going to do something different in anaheim with the ducks my guess is that it wasn t as good in practice as it was on paper and he s tweaking it a bit second time around one also has to wonder whether the strategy would have been a lot better if we hadn t had those injuries and whether we re complaining about the weather because an earthquake collapsed the root cellar of course ferreira had also traded a number of veterans with marginal contributions before he was fired so it s not clear that this would have been different besides they were marginal contributors let s also not forget that ferreira came this close to trading kelly kisio which if the rumors i ve heard are true was over the strong objections of other aspects of shark management and probably had a lot to do with both his ouster and the three headed consensus oriented gm imagine for a second where the sharks would be today if that fax machine hadn t jammed with or without mullen they weren t going to be a playoff team what good does it do them to hang onto a player who d rather be elsewhere especially an unhappy player that isn t playing as well because of it not that i d accuse mullen of tanking but his motivation simply wasn t there and that kind of thing can affect the team an example from this season skriko was brought in on a trial basis but not kept because of his age i thought he was a decent contributor worth keeping around the youth movement has its advantages look at gaudreau who might still be in kc if more veterans had been kept around but you have to find the right balance right balance for what that s the issue exactly at the time they let skriko go we hadn t yet had the major injury bugs that killed us later i d much rather have skriko around than someone like dean kolstad but at that point that wasn t the choice and since the choice was more one of skriko vs someone like john carter i think the right choice was made for that time period chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants a san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.hockey	nhl draft i believe the nhl draft is on or the june th weekend
rec.sport.hockey	goalie stats in article r smf m access usask ca coulman cs usask ca randy coulman writes path ctron news ctron com noc near net uunet utcsri newsflash concordia ca mi izar cc umanitoba ca access usask ca cs usask ca coulman from coulman cs usask ca randy coulman newsgroups rec sport hockey subject final regular season individual goalie stats date wed apr edt organization university of saskatchewan lines distribution world message id r smf m access usask ca reply to coulman cs usask ca nntp posting host skorpio usask ca i would appreciate it if someone could volunteer to verify the shots on goal and save percentage numbers for me so i can put these stats on the archive site contact me by mail if you want to volunteer here are the individual goalie stats as of wed apr cst these stats include games up to and including the sunday previous to the date listed above they have been verified against what is printed in my newspaper every tuesday they don t print shots and save percentage numbers so those are not verified these stats are available by mail every weekday and sometimes on weekends if i m in town and i can get late game results just send me a note if you would like to receive these stats by mail if you have any questions comments or suggestions let me know randy mp minutes played ga goals against so shutouts gaa goals against average w wins l losses t ties sog shots on goal sv save percentage mp ga so gaa w l t sog sv tm player was byron dafoe har corrie d alessio mtl frederick chabot bos mike bales tor felix potvin chi ed belfour bos john blue chi jim waite pit tom barrasso stl curtis joseph van kay whitmore buf dominik hasek bos andy moog cal jeff reese mtl patrick roy har mike lenarduzzi det vincent riendeau tor daren puppa det tim cheveldae cal mike vernon nyi glenn healy buf grant fuhr nyr john vanbiesbrouck was don beaupre min jon casey van kirk mclean nj chris terreri mtl andre racicot que stephane fiset phi tommy soderstrom pit ken wregget bos reggie lemelin que ron hextall nyi mark fitzpatrick win bob essensa win jim hrivnak min darcy wakaluk tb wendell young tb jc bergeron nj craig billington stl guy hebert was rick tabaracci buf tom draper nyr corey hirsch phi dominic roussel nyr mike richter nyi danny lorenz edm bill ranford la robb stauber la kelly hrudey que jacques cloutier har mario gosselin la rick knickle tb pat jablonski sj arturs irbe har sean burke edm ron tugnutt ott daniel berthiaume phi stephane beauregard ott peter sidorkiewicz cal andrei trefilov har frank pietrangelo win mike o neill sj wade flaherty sj jeff hackett sj brian hayward tor rick wamsley was olaf kolzig ott darrin madeley ott steve weeks la david goverde tb david littman randy a coulman m sc aries laboratory research assistant department of computational science university of saskatchewan coulman cs usask ca saskatoon sk s n w mike machnik machnik blue ctron com nin b merrimack edu cabletron systems inc hmn
rec.sport.hockey	espn bashing i agree thouroughly screw the damn contractual agreements show the exciting hockey game they will lose fans of espn of which i have been one for quite a while quickly with decisions like this just my chuck espn f ed up this time atwood atwoodc csugrad cs vt edu virginia tech computer science department
rec.sport.hockey	re schedule in article apr news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes mre teal eng sun com mike eisler writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes i can t believe that espn is making sportschannel america look good but only in ny nj philadelphia and chicago everywhere else the only reason sportschannel was available was for local baseball broadcasts yes a point well taken however even in areas that finally got some games there s something nagging in the back of your skull when the network that has the national rights in its pocket says on its sports news there s an awesome overtime going on in quebec city and we ll try to get you an update through the show when you know that it s on a satellite s feedhorn somewhere up there listen guys you can talk about this the whole playoffs i m here in a small town in southern illinois at school i m from canada and i know that cbc and tsn have games on every night all you have to do is go to a bar with a satellite i have watched both games between mon que and toronto and detroit not to mention van vs winn and with cbc they show all goals from every game that evening so i haven t missed a goal all playoffs well have to go boy leafs are on ciao roger guagliano eastern illinois university
rec.sport.hockey	re ulf and all jpc philabs philips com john p curcio writes in article qmpfa qna alpha db erau edu drozinst db erau edu drozinski tim writes i am an ulf and pgh fan and what pisses me off about the whole adam graves ulf samuesson debate is that ulf plays hard hitting hockey nothing wrong with that while graves does what he does when the only way to win a game is to intentionally hurt someone which bites jeesus i never thought i d see the day when i defended a ranger you obviously don t watch much hockey if you think that graves is a goon he is one of the hardest working rangers check that the hardest working ranger he had goals this year not bad for a checking type of player and showed up for every single game this season unlike that stiff messier he is fearless and throws clean checks he will also stand up to someone after he hits them not like that pussy oaf exactly my point if you d watch games more closely you d see a lot of goons going after him ulf is one of the main reasons why less physical players for pgh are left alone ulf plays rough hockey but only when other players are putting the rush on mario or jagr if you want to say anyone on the penguins is a cheap shot or a goon say it s jennings or caufield don tslander a good defenseman because your favorite players can t beat the pens even when they take dives like gartner to try for the cheap penalties as for his slash of lemieux fine it was a cheap shot it is the exception not the rule i bet you think mike gartner is a goon because of the time that he slashed the hell out of oaf s arm last year right after all he did get a suspension for it hey that s fine if a player does something stupid he should be penalized including ulf or mario you re not likely to see that happen or anyone else for that matter it s pointless to say any one person is a cheap shot goon because you ll see everyone take a cheap shot now and then especially if you resomeone who is shadowed as much as ulf is jpc john p curcio go bruins philips laboratories jpc philabs philips com scarborough road briarcliff manor ny tim drozinski drozinst db erau edu chew electric death snarling cur spaceman spiff
rec.sport.hockey	re ulf and all william k willis ww a andrew cmu edu writes richard wernick writes stuff deleted if the bruins get to meet pittsburgh in the near future you can bet neely will have his day the sight of watching ulf turtle up like the coward he is is worth almost as much as a stanley cup stuff deleted how much do you watch and follow hockey the pens and bruins will be in the same division next season which will give neeley plenty of opportunity to whine about ulf all i can say is i m glad that you are satisfied with seeing ulf turtle up as a substitute for the stanley cup because that s as close as the bruins are going to come to the stanley cup for a while tim drozinski drozinst db erau edu chew electric death snarling cur spaceman spiff
rec.sport.hockey	re selfish hockey fans in article apr staff dccs upenn edu filinuk staff dccs upenn edu geoff filinuk writes on tuesday when it was raining in chicago espn provided bonus hockey coverage now it seems as though some fans are ticked off that the ny wash ot was replaced with the angels game people must realize that there are more baseball fans instead of hockey fans in the u s the baseball game was scheduled to air and advertisers money was paid so they can t skip the baseball game why don t you people chill out and enjoy whatever coverage you can get well partly because i as an ardent fan of both sports would rather see game of the nhl playoffs than game of of the mlb season even if the bb game involves the red sox espn may have had contractual obligations i understand that part but it s a bit inaccurate to call us selfish just because we want to watch the watch the game we love am i as a baseball fan selfish when i get pissed a cbs for showing approximately one game per month i don t think so while espn may have contractual obligations we as their consumers have a right to voice our displeasure with how they are serving us there s certainly nothing wrong with that bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey ny division ii state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	re ulf and all joe pitt edu joseph b stiehm writes the way he does does not belong in the nhl there have been cheap shot artists through the history of the game but a lot of them have been talanted players bobby clarke kenny linsemen pie mckenzie chris chelios etc but nobody has been out right as dirty a cheapshot coward as ulf violence in hockey has got to be curbed and players like should have been a women samuelson don t belong when players like ulf who s main purpose is to injure the better players in the league is allowed to continue and the league won t stop it the players should a christian pro aluminum stick directed at his ugly head should do the trick nicely if the bruins get a chance to meet pittsburgh in the near future you can bet neely will have his day the sight of watching ulf turtle up like the coward he is is worth almost as much as a stanely cup this wimp of a player almost ruined the career of one the best right wingers in the game if you are to remove ulf samuelson from the lineup the penguins would not even notice he s gone he s an eyesore on the game of hockey rich rich pull your head out of your ass joseph stiehm as if an aluminum stick being taken to ulf s head is gonna solve the problem with violence in the sport of hockey how the hell can you say the guy is a goon and justify it with your back assward mentality saying that hurting a player will solve anyone s problems is asinine new rules and a new referee system need to be instituted right now too many of the real goons get away with too much because the ref is watching the play or supposed to be i ve seen koharski and van hellemond to name a few with their heads up their asses on a few calls rather than keeping an eye on the goofballs behind the play even if the linesmen were able to call all penalties it would be an improvement tim drozinski drozinst db erau edu chew electric death snarling cur spaceman spiff
rec.sport.hockey	re espn thumbs up your in article apr wkuvx bitnet kozloce wkuvx bitnet wrote i think this proves by point the caps game goes into overtime but due to contractual obligations they have to switch to the fucking baseball sorry for my language but im pissed what the hell were they going to do if their scheduled game went into overtime espn get your head out of your ass now i know there are a lot hey american hockey fans as a hockey fan i can sympathize with thefrustration that you feel the problem is that other americans don t give a shit about hockey they view it as a bunch of canadians with bad accents and missing teeth beating the shit out of each other on a patch of ice when it is too warm now in two thirds of the us to see the stuff naturally on the other hand baseball is the gasp swoon sigh national pasttime baseball is so romanticized in the us that you are supposed to forget that other sport exist after april and before november i feel that since espn shows baseball games a week they should be able to show an ot hockey game instead of the opening innings of a baseball game hell the game is going to last hrs mins so what if you miss the first hrs and i am an indians fan show the end of what you started then switch but then i m a hockey fan what do i know baseball is the all mighty sport jason jae andy bgsu edu go whalers pick well
rec.sport.hockey	re usenet hockey draft final standings in article c un gq idacom hp com andrew idacom hp com andrew scott writes here are the final stadings for the usenet hockey draft congratulations to this year s winner dave wessels of victoria b c who parlayed his initial points into points thanks to all teams for entering the biggest usenet hockey draft ever i hope to hear from you all again this september for the th annual draft usenet hockey draft standings week posn team total pts cash last posn dave wessels brad gibson dinamo riga an interesting note i have absolutely no recollection who was on my team i picked all my players about weeks before the start of the season and then never touched the roster again i got wrapped up in my own money pool and decided not to get involved at all with the usenet pool sorry andrew btw the only thing i remember about my team is that i had joe sacco and maybe john maclean maybe francis and kevin stevens as well out of curiousity i checked the final standings today on r s h only to find to my amazement that with absolutely no input the initial team still managed to finsh th i m not sure what that implies for those who finished below me ciao brad gibson brad k gibson internet gibson geop ubc ca dept of geophysics astronomy main mall phone university of british columbia fax vancouver british columbia canada v t z
rec.sport.hockey	re octopus in article bb ea a lmarsha cms cc wayne edu lmarsha cms cc wayne edu laurie marshall says in article c ssl ebs spk hp com filipows spk hp com dennis filipowski writes door attendants at the joe louis arena have been checking fans for octopuses sp as they are not allow in the arena i want to know where these people are hiding these octopuses everytime i ve been to the joe they checked my purse and that s the only place i can think of putting one any other wings fans out there know of ways to sneak these octopuses into the joe you mean they don t strip search you and do cavity checks the fools
rec.sport.hockey	pilon bites do the isles have another defenseman to insert into the line up besides pilon once again last night s stupid penalty put the isles in a hole for the remainder of regulation and minutes into overtime even though the isles nearly survived pilon s blunder in regulation it was the most inopportune time for a minute major penalty instead of confronting cote as he came across the blueline pilon backed up and swiped at cote s nose with his stick al arbour can t be serious to think pilon is the guy to have out there with the game on the line i heard scott lachance is out till later in the series but there must be someone else bring back the bammer dave langevin lets go islanders john scialdone scialdone nssdca gsfc nasa gov i ve been gambling hereabouts for good solid years jg rh
rec.sport.hockey	team pool standings o k only one series is done but i need to post something by the way the islanders just scored rank team name points final roland behunin cal que que milton keynes kings det pit pit barfly tor bos tor dean s det pit pit oz lak bos lak garry tor bos bos brian bergman det pit det mopar muscle men chi pit pit bh s last place picks chi pit pit dave wessels van pit pit sam his dogs det pit pit ye ding det pit pit tampere stars chi pit pit the mighty hedgehogs of myllyp chi bos bos homesick hawaiian van pit pit killer kings chi was chi puggy greybeards det pit pit ottawa bearcats tor pit tor andrew kirk tor pit pit muller n walker det pit pit excalibur det pit pit rednecks from hockey hell det bos bos the rangers of chi pit pit jeff phelps det pit pit arctic circles det pit pit sludge det pit det the logistician det pit det hillside raiders chi bos bos danielle chi que que stanias stars chi bos bos bloodhook det pit pit gilles carmel chi pit pit pasi fr nti lak pit pit evan pritchard van pit pit skriko wolves det pit pit rangers blow cal pit pit sean det pit pit schott shooters chi pit pit gary shiff tor pit pit mike burger det pit det darse det pit pit mike burger my canada includes quebec ontario mmb lamar colostate edu the maritimes the prairies and florida a beginning computing ta stud four months a year over students served royal canadian air farce university of michigan colorado state university
rec.sport.hockey	habs tie series at yahooooooooo the habs tied this sucker at and the teams now head for quebec city to play game btw final score was habs nords the score might be a bit misleading the habs dominated the game from the mark of the first and then on the score should have been if it weren t for some miraculous save from a ron hextall bastard he s the reason the score was as close habs winning goal was scored by benoit brunet at of the rd roy had an ok game he made the first save one way or another and the defense was there to clear any rebounds this just in espn radio reports that the bruins lost in ot yahooooooooooo those suckers got what they deserved life is just great now if my finals would go just as well nick i ll take off my town crier hat now the czar of mainframe computing bgk musicb mcgill ca mcgill university
rec.sport.hockey	re jets canucks jets hold on win in article c p lsp news cso uiuc edu epritcha s psych uiuc edu evan pritchard writes i will also be happy will a good performance we played ok in vancouver but much better last night as the big guys were going for the jets yep though my reasons for being relatively quiet are simple last year i woofed when we went up on the canucks and look where it got me by the way did domi play last night i didn t notice him on the ice domi got tossed in the nd with a high sticking major he had been playing with kris king and stu barnes and it was this line that was arguably the best in the first two games i am very glad to have found some places in champaign illinois that have satillite dishes to pick up the cbc vancouver feed and i m also glad to have found some other hockey fans some jets and some canucks fans to watch the game with definitely a good thing every little cheer helps evan good thing the net doesn t need a voice to operate i won t have one sunday night when i get home i hope white noise here we come one thing i will say though vancouver can keep steve armitage and john garrett as a broadcast team those two are bad especially when you are spoiled by don wittman at least four or five times steve called barnes selanne whoops daryl turner r s h contact for the winnipeg jets internet umturne ccu umanitoba ca fidonet or please route through tkachuk over to zhamnov up to sel nne he shoots he scores the jets win the cup the jets win the cup essensa for vezina housley for norris sel nne for calder
rec.sport.hockey	sabres sweep it s over the sabres came back to beat the bruins in ot tonight to sweep the series a beautiful goal by brad may lafontaine set him up while lying down on the ice ended it fuhr left the game game with an injured shoulder and lafontaine was banged up as well however the sabres will get a week s rest so injuries should not be a problem montreal edged quebec to square their series which seems to be headed for game the habs dominated the first two periods and were unlucky to only have a tie after minutes however an early goal by brunet in the rd won it the islanders won their rd ot game of the series on a goal by ray ferraro the caps simply collapsed after taking a lead in the nd the isles all time playoff ot record is now vlad the impaler
rec.sport.hockey	and you think espn shafted you like many others i too was watching the caps isles game when the went to the baseball game i too was pissed how could they interupt such an important game i understand about contracts but you would think they would have a clause in the contract concerning important games anyway us blues and hawks fans got shafted worse while everyone in the u s and watched the game on abc however those of us who live in the central illinois area were subjected to watching the arthritus telethon the area that was most affected by the telecast did not get to see the game except through hawk vision this game had it been televised would have been the first home hawks game shown in the area since this television bull has got to stop we are not only being deprived of seeing games due to skyrocketing ticket prices but we are also being deprived of watching them on tv peace hammer
rec.sport.hockey	pierre turgeon a stud being a a blues fan i don t get to see much else from around the league with the exception of hockey night on espn i can t get the blues games where i go to school thus i don t get to see a whole lot of other teams play except for the hawks but last night i got to catch a glimpse of the caps isles game it occurred to me that turgeon is a stud on skates his moves are quick and brilliant you ny fans should be proud p s who won the game caps isles peace hammer
rec.sport.hockey	great comeback for sabres despit changing goalie bufflo sabres has just finished their great four wins over boston all sabres players contribute to those great wins but those talent players including mogily fuhr kemhlev and lafontin impressed me most their skills showed the art of sport not like the garbage speech from the coach s corner go make hocky popular make hocky more exciting but less violent
rec.sport.hockey	re ranger fans kkeller mail sas upenn edu keith keller writes kwolfer eagle wesleyan edu writes reading through most of these hockey news i don t see many ranger fans writing we re here talking about hockey we don t go away like some team s fans when the rangers bite the big one yeah i think we re used to it by now even if some of us do change our sigs to root for our second favorite teams i m new to this system and a big hockey fan and a long suffering ranger fan but remember suffering builds character i don t care i want my f cking stanley cup before i die aargh i ll be happy if they win it before i get out of school the way it s going i may be here saying piled higher and deeper before long ranger fans may be suffering but we re some of the most loyal unlike islander fans who only show up when the team wins this has been observed many times it s true definitely i have a feeling that alot of people out there may not like this statement but by far the worst band wagon fans are the pit fans at least at the present case in point i know a guy who just came to hockey hell tm from pitt u him how bout the pens the re f ing awesome me yeah but beating up on the devils doesn t mean alot wait until they meet boston and or detroit in the playoffs start him when do the playoffs start me uhhhh they started a week ago i m not saying that this is true of all the waddlers fans but there seems to be alot of them floating around who really know nothing about hockey except that they re newly beloved waddlers are the best team in the game right now and when they re not the best team those fans will disappear into the woodwork john flames dev null serious comments welcomed eat the rich as far as the stanley cup goes i think there s only one team that can test pittsburgh and that s detroit this would be the most entertaining and hard fought series mario is amazing keith keller let s go rangers let s go quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs a cow is not a vegetarian dish keith keller in hockey hell jwodzia eng clemson edu john r wodziak the real black and gold in memorium alan kulwicki space will triumph over those who a polish yankee mechanical engineer for are pretenders to the crown winston cup champion a great person rent
rec.sport.hockey	re where are all the bruins fans robbie po rap psuvm psu edu writes i m just wondering where all the bruins fans are i mean they woofed it up with about posts during the regular season saying that their fave team was going to kick everyone s in the playoffs and win the stanley cup while i see nothing wrong with a little ranting and raving i m just curious why all the boston faithful have stopped posting i mean i haven t even see just one little boston fan post cept for the bruins fans that aren t cocky well maybe they re all out on the golf course or something but i don t know i d sure like to see where all those bruins fans are at still here just doing a little sobbing in our beer so we re to busy to post seriously i think i caught a sig curse from nelson first the rangers and now the b s hmmm how bout dem whalers no offense to steveg or others in hockey hell jwodzia eng clemson edu john r wodziak the real black and gold in memorium alan kulwicki space will triumph over those who a polish yankee mechanical engineer for are pretenders to the crown winston cup champion a great person rent
rec.sport.hockey	re espn up yours in article apr virginia edu mjr u virginia edu matthew j rush writes actually i was angry when they went away from the pens game being a pens fan in central virginia is kinda tough i only get to see them on espn and when they play the caps cause we re close enough to dc to get all the caps games so when espn switched to the caps aaaggghhh matt not nearly as angry as i was to have set the vcr yesterday only to get home to find the bruins vs buffalo that s what i get for reading the tv section and not the sports section for what game will be aired nancy j spera imt division if i didn t know for a fact that p chevron petroleum technology co g elvis was working in a donut shop e p o box la habra ca o in beaver falls i d swear he was n tel njs chevron com driving this truck scotty baldwin s
rec.sport.hockey	re radio stations add boston s weei am as the bruins flagship station you probably won t pick it up anywhere outside of boston since it s only a watt station the bruins also have network stations in all new england states this could be the bruins last year on eei which also happens to be an all sports radio station the problem is that the bruins are not too happy being moved over to a different station wmex am whenever there is a the same night conflict with the nba s boston celtics this happened times during the course of the regular season the celtics own financially troubled weei the bruins might resurface on whdh next year stay tuned ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	re s quoting the logistician to all tl i am in need of all of the players wearing in the nhl i know now tl only of one ray borque for the bruins any help would be greatly tl appreciated tl thanx hi there logistician is not paul coffey wearing for the detroit red wings that is the only other one besides borque that i can think of hope it helps steve warning removal of this tagline prohibited by law blue wave qwk v
rec.sport.hockey	re espn broadcastsssss quoting cire y trehguad to all cyt hey i am in iowa and i do not mind espn showing the pitt njd games cyt at least i get to see the devils even if they are gettin there ass cyt kicked perhaps they will score and even win a game or two cyt go devils i am sorry to tell you this but i don t think the devils will win a game against pittsburg the penguins have so many scoring threats that you shut down one and another will kill you it s too bad but i must conclude that the penguins will win their third stanley cup in a row i hope someone will beat them but i just cannot see it happening s t e v e backup not found a bort r etry p anic blue wave qwk v
rec.sport.hockey	re hey what about teh c quoting greg rogers to all gr hi all gr due to living in the bay area i as unable to see vancouver s victory gr over the jets last night i know the score but that rarely describes gr the game could someone please post a brief sonapsis sp of waht gr happened how well did each team play were the cannucks deserving of gr the victory gr also could some kind soul please email me the end of season gr individual player stats gr greg gr vancouver for the cup in a virtual reality i am sorry to tell you this greg but in all reality we cannot see vancouver winning the cup they have a rrally good chance to come out of the smythe division and a chance to make it to the finals but no one is capable this year of beating the penguins they have too many scoring threats i would love to be proven wrong but i must conclude that the pens will win cup this year steve mondays are a rotten way to spend a th of your life blue wave qwk v
rec.sport.hockey	re test please ignore quoting ohandley betsy gsfc nasa to all oh from ohandley betsy gsfc nasa gov oh newsgroups rec sport hockey oh subject test please ignore oh message id apr betsy gsfc nasa gov oh date wed apr gmt oh reply to ohandley betsy gsfc nasa gov oh this is a test please ignore oh oh oh oh ok i will ignore this message since it is only a test wow montreal just scored to go up in game of their series oh sorry i was supposed to ignore this message wasn t i bye for now steve dont you dare read this tagline blue wave qwk v
rec.sport.hockey	re espn really sucks big time cdash moet cs colorado edu charles shub writes so all us hockey automobile racing fans all know exactly where we stand espn delays the martinsville race by a day for the nfl draft espn shows baseball instead of the overtime of a nhl playoff game gimme a break guys what really irritated me was that they kept switching back and forth between baseball and hockey after they stated that they couldn t show the overtime period i turned back to espn around and it was hockey great i pulled up a chair and watched then the first overtime period ended and they went back to baseball before coming back to hockey something like minutes later are they trying to alienate both hockey and baseball viewers at the same time as for martinsville i wonder why they even bothered to sign up for it when they it was no secret that it coincided with the draft why not let tnn broadcast it george charlie shub cdash cs colorado edu
rec.sport.hockey	re sharks review part left wings paul fugu data io com paul brownlow writes wood played most of his junior career in seattle he was one of the leading scorers on a mediocre team when he was traded away in he rarely lost a fight and was one of the toughest players in the whl wood is fairly small for an enforcer type i mean fleury does a pretty good job and isn t that large but dody is no fleury having been witness to three or four of his fights closeup he simply isn t ready to fight at an nhl level assuming that it s his role which is all he really showed us in his few games up from k c if he can pass shoot or skate i never saw much of it all he has is a right fist which isn t bad but at the nhl level the other players are smart enough to grab the thing before he can land anything significant once you control that hand he s a fish flopping on the beach and the other player can do just about anything he wants to him his entire strategy seemed to be keep the hand out of reach until he found an opening and i never once saw him find an opening worth talking about he got neutralized quickly and stomped on a couple of times unless he shows some new tricks in camp he ll be on my career minor leaguer list since this was his first taste of the nhl i expect the sharks gave it to him so he d know what he d have to work on off season he needs to get stronger he needs to get more speed and he needs to show some versatility as something else than a simply goond because he wasn t particularly good as a goon chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants a san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.hockey	islanders win third in ot don t know who scored but the isles franchise record in playoff ot games took game four by a score of for their third consecutive ot win over the capitals tonight at uniondale if you know please post who scored for a isles fan living in atlanta hockey hell lord stan s a uniondale man go isles jsm
rec.sport.hockey	wc finland disaster finland was beaten by czech finland will be th of pool b and will most certainly meet canada in the quarter final on wednesday th lack of scoring skills has been the major problem of team finland throughout the tournament briza goalie was the mvp of the czech team and tikkanen was the mvp of the finnish team jarkko
rec.sport.hockey	re wc finland ketolain messi uku fi jarkko ketolainen writes disaster finland was beaten by czech finland will be th of pool b and will most certainly meet canada in the quarter final on wednesday th lack of scoring skills has been the major problem of team finland throughout the tournament briza goalie was the mvp of the czech team and tikkanen was the mvp of the finnish team in four of the five games finns have played the goalie has been chosen the best player of the opposing team in the fifth the finnish goalie ketterer was elected the best finn has this to do with the goalies having good days in these games or are the finnish players just lousy scorers anyway quite few goals have been scored in these games in generally the exception of course being canada vs italy it looks like the goalies are getting too good is this due to their equipment getting bigger so they cover more their gloves e g seem to be much bigger now than they were some years ago anybody know if the rules on goalie equipment has changed this way mikko wihervaara jarkko t m on nyt t mm nen testi sigun kai piti olla muutamarivinen nyt viel pari
rec.sport.hockey	re stan fischler in apr alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes wayne made his own bed choosing mcnall over sather and hockey destiny he should sleep in it instead of whining ego got absolute nonsense the decision that was made was pocklington s he chose mill over gretzky if gretzky wasn t upset about not being able to win a cup in la then i submit that he wasn t worth the mill the best of him he thought the supporting cast in edmonton didn t matter that he was the show himself how do you know what he thinks or thought the only thought that i can see that you have revealed is your own you don t like gretzky big deal now my only complaint about lemieux is that he dives too much but last year patrick convinced him twice to accept bowman and hockey destiny rather than his ego the real purpose of diving is not merely an attempt to draw a penalty what the player is trying to do is make the checkers keep their distance so the ref won t be fooled i can t imagine why anyone would expect someone like lemieux to change his game why don t you pick on dimensional over rated type like hull and salami cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.hockey	ahl playoff results ahl playoff scores first round home team in caps games played on tues rochester utica fredericton at cape breton series stati plural of status adirondack leads cdi providence tied w springfield binghamton tied w baltimore rochester leads utica st john s leads moncton cape breton tied w fredericton bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey ny division ii state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	nc caps isles fans caps isles fans anyone interested in catching the games from nassau coliseum hopefully there will be another can catch the game at north carolina s original sports bar in chapel hill i m pretty sure they carry hts as well they had all three games on at the same time last night this is the only place i know to catch all of the stanley cup action frank salvatore fmsalvat eos ncsu edu
rec.sport.hockey	pens fans reactions i am sure some bashers of pens fans are pretty confused about the lack of any kind of posts about the recent pens massacre of the devils actually i am bit puzzled too and a bit relieved however i am going to put an end to non pittsburghers relief with a bit of praise for the pens man they are killing those devils worse than i thought jagr just showed you why he is much better than his regular season stats he is also a lot fo fun to watch in the playoffs bowman should let jagr have a lot of fun in the next couple of games since the pens are going to beat the pulp out of jersey anyway i was very disappointed not to see the islanders lose the final regular season game pens rule
rec.sport.hockey	usenet playoff pool game standings here are the standings after game of each of the divisional semi final series andrew usenet hockey playoff draft standings posn team pts rem last posn sneddon scorers arctic circles northern lights threepeat fighting amish team elvis chris roney myers marauders the dead ducks les poteux sludge paige faults sam his dogs the borg hurricane andrew lewey s lakers einstien s punk band homesick hawaiian test department samuel lau calgary alberta mopar muscle men jerky boys gb flyers neural netters give you money monday bill mcgreer fugazi detroit homeboy bloom county all stars dehradun maawalis great expectations purdue ricks pens frank s little wankers jan stein allez les blues goaldingers suds weenies a p bury bruce s rented mules mind sweepers mike burger go flames garryola the mulberry maulers lippe flamming senators big bay bombers milton keynes kings seppo kemppainen freddy beach rockets the campi machine j s rock em sock ems sean forbes tapio repo zachmans wingers zipper heads canadian gladiators teem kanada new zealand leafs tiger chung lees rangers of destiny make beliefs dave wessels norway killerwhales force trevor s triumph commitments skate or die dog s hog s delaware destroyers craig team rangers blow debbie bowles mak paranjape comfortably numb loaded weapons rob del mundo robarts research rebels fuzzfaces galore houdini s magicians la coupe stainless cluster buster lets go pandas tequila shooters steves superstars reksa fans of oulu habs playing golf chris stevens on thin ice oakville brothers jason team smithw anson mak skriko wolves all the kane s men danielle leblanc team awesome weasels alf s all stars zippety doodah kramer george and jerry rev s rebels yan loke lamp lighters littlest giants mr creosote oceanweavers great scott bobby schmautz fan club icemachine hat trick mike the promise land daves knee jerk picks doug bowles holsteins sfb lemon pepper grizzly bears flying pigs les raisins reneb gilles carmel boops bets timo ojala rednecks from hockey hell gee man frack attack triple x ulfie s brothers buffalo soldiers shigella ottawa bearcats whiters monica loke lance hill the boston bruins fa mann mariners new jersey rob frasses faceplants doug mraz muller n walker high stickers legzryx beer makes me an expert gail hiebert dean martin marcs maulers brians bloodletters van isle colonists charlie cook bjorkloven schott shooters bjoern leaguen the eradicators lord stanley s favourites but wait theres more stacey ross heikki salmi the ice kickers chapman chaps the rangers of the underwriters beam team dave hiebert canuck force evan pritchard controversy warriors jfz dream team san jose mahi mahi go go gagit goddess of fermentation bure s blur louisiana psycho killers east city jokers tampere salami joe s a crak head grant marven mark and steve dreaming again pens dynasty chip n dale cherry bombers brian bergman the goobmeister oz arm hammer gax goons daryl turner e i s bosse myllypuro hedgehogs chapman sticks hillside raiders knights on a power play eldoret elephants sparky s select sluggo s hosers butt ends lisa s luggers stanias stars ken de cruyenaere gary shiff jukurit montys nords jane s world rolaids required martin s gag equipe du jour arsenal maple leafs the alarmers killer kings andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hp idacom telecom operation ext during the roman era was considered old
rec.sport.hockey	goalie mask poll update curtis joseph and ray leblanc have made some big moves in the poll recently hextall has shown some strong movement as well kirk mclean and tom barrasso i can t see why have been added to the list recently keep sending in those votes current votes for favorite goalie masks pts st pts nd pt rd player team pts votes ed belfour chicago curtis joseph st louis andy moog boston brian hayward san jose ron hextall quebec grant fuhr buffalo gerry cheevers boston retired john vanbeisbrouck ny rangers ray leblanc usa olympic mike richter ny rangers manon rheaume atlanta ihl don beaupre washington ken dryden montreal retired others receiving less than pts mike vernon cal clint malarchuk buf sd ihl tommy soderstrom phil tom barrasso pit artus irbe sj tim cheveldae det sean burke nj rick wamsley tor ret jon casey minn bob essensa win glenn healy nyi tony espo chi gilles gratton bos rod stauber la gump worsley mtl nyr pat jablonski tb grant fuhr tor felix potvin tor stephane beauregard win mark fitzpatrick nyi chico resch nyi kirk mclean van go skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite go braves an effect on you mike patton faith no more go hornets go capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd a prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	wc scores and standings april world championships in germany group a standings munich group b standings dortmund gp w t l gf ga p gp w t l gf ga p canada czech republic sweden germany russia usa switzerland finland italy norway austria france april italy russia norway germany sweden austria usa czech republic april canada switzerland russia austria finland france april sweden canada czech republic germany switzerland italy finland usa april germany france italy sweden czech republic norway april switzerland russia usa france austria canada norway finland april switzerland austria germany finland april russia sweden czech republic france canada italy usa norway april sweden switzerland finland czech republic russia canada germany usa april austria italy france norway playoffs april quarterfinals sweden usa russia germany april quarterfinals canada finland italy switzerland czech republic april relegation a b a b april semifinals a b a b a b a b may relegation bronze medal game may final staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se r s h contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	re lemieux s getting the hart jeez i hope not in article apr unbvm csd unb ca patrick walker f hh unb ca writes by the way i am canadian play a little and watched hockey night in canada never missed a show well that s really great pat i guess since you ve played a little you thereby qualify as an expert especially since you watch all the games on t v all that qualifies you as is a armchair quarterback or a coach potato not that i condone violence but i ll make an exception for mario pat walker again just further evidence as to what kind of an expert you are truly a stupid statement mario is definately one of the best players to play the game i m not saying he is the best to ever play the game but he should come to mind when that question is asked let s face it he just returns from radiation therapy with around a dozen games left overtakes lafontaine for the scoring lead and then buries him no i guess he just got lucky speaking of lafontaine now there s a guy who should be considered for the hart trophy as well certainly one of the better players in the league this year
rec.sport.hockey	playoffs stats through sunday stanley cup playoff stats through games played sunday april top point scorers rnk pts g a pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps player can bos c adam oates usa stl rw brett hull rus buf rw alexander mogilny can pit c mario lemieux can cal rw theoren fleury can tor c doug gilmour can det d paul coffey usa buf c pat lafontaine can nyi c ray ferraro rus van rw pavel bure rus buf lw yuri khmylev can van rw trevor linden can buf c dale hawerchuk usa stl c craig janney can bos c joe juneau can cal c joe nieuwendyk can stl d jeff brown can pit c ron francis top goal scorers rnk pts g a pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps player rus buf rw alexander mogilny usa stl rw brett hull can was c dale hunter can pit c mario lemieux can nyi c ray ferraro can tor lw dave andreychuk can bos rw cam neely usa la c jimmy carson usa que rw scott young top assist scorers rnk pts g a pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps player can bos c adam oates can det d paul coffey usa buf c pat lafontaine can tor c doug gilmour can stl d jeff brown can pit c ron francis usa win d phil housley swe was d calle johansson can cal d al macinnis top power play goal scorers rnk pts g a pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps player usa stl rw brett hull can was c dale hunter can cal rw theoren fleury rus buf rw alexander mogilny can bos c joe juneau can stl lw brendan shanahan usa la c jimmy carson tch cal c robert reichel fin win rw teemu selanne can mon lw vincent damphousse all the short handed goal scorers rnk pts g a pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps player can cal rw theoren fleury can pit c mario lemieux usa cal c joel otto usa cal d gary suter rus det c sergei fedorov can bos c dave poulin can win c luciano borsato can det lw shawn burr can stl lw dave lowry usa buf rw wayne presley top game winning goal scorers rnk pts g a pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps player usa stl rw brett hull can nyi c ray ferraro usa stl c craig janney usa que rw scott young rus van rw pavel bure can pit c ron francis rus buf lw yuri khmylev can van rw trevor linden can tor lw dave andreychuk can was c dale hunter top point scoring defensemen rnk pts g a pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps player can det d paul coffey can stl d jeff brown usa win d phil housley swe was d calle johansson can cal d al macinnis top rookie point scorers rnk pts g a pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps player can bos c joe juneau usa pit c shawn mceachern fin win rw teemu selanne tch buf d richard smehlik top penalty minute leaders rnk pts g a pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps player can det lw keith primeau rus det c sergei fedorov can nyi d richard pilon can tor rw rob pearson can win rw tie domi a l l e z l e s b l u e s joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	minnesota shame i m a hockey fan from way back and maintain an interest as best i can here in the hockey hinterlands oklahoma i m hoping i can get a reading from some of you about the move of the north stars to dallas i ve been under the impression that minnesota was one of or possibly the hockey state in the u s so why is the team moving to a city in texas is it that the owner is a greedy self serving profiteer or were the stars really not making a profit or was the city or whoever owned the arena doing some price gouging as much as i d like to see the nhl only a hour drive from me i can t help but feel for the people in minnesota unless they truly didn t support the team opinions please steve hunter national weather service nexrad radar group norman ok
rec.sport.hockey	blues playoff stats through first round blues playoff scoring through end of norris semifinals ps name gp g a pts pim pp sh gw en rw brett hull c craig janney d jeff brown lw brendan shanahan c nelson emerson rw denny felsner lw dave lowry lw basil mcrae lw kevin miller rw rich sutter c bob bassen lw philippe bozon c ron wilson d garth butcher d stephane quintal d bret hedican d murray baron d rick zombo g curtis joseph d doug crossman c ron sutter rw igor korolev rw kelly chase d curt giles g guy hebert rookie goaltending gp min ga avg w l en so sa save curtis joseph guy hebert team totals so shutouts sa shots against goals st period nd period rd period overtime power play goals short handed goals empty net goals shots a l l e z l e s b l u e s joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	wc results april world championships in germany group a results sweden switzerland st swi manuele celio swi patrick howald swi patrick howald sven leuenberger nd swe peter andersson michael nylander pp swi roman waeger martin rauch sven leuenberger pp swe jonas bergqvist markus naslund swe jan larsson patrik juhlin rd swe mikael renberg thomas rundqvist peter andersson swi roman waeger swi felix hollenstein sven leuenberger thomas vrabec shots on goal penalties attendance referee sweden min rob hearn usa switzerland min switzerland beat sweden in a wc for the first time since and the swiss now have a small chance of reaching the quarterfinals if austria beats italy tonight the swiss took the lead after hakan ahlund made an incredibly stupid drop pass at his own blue line and celio came in alone with soderstrom and beat tommy to the stick side the swedes continued to make mistakes as howald was allowed to skate in between the swedish d and put the puck past tommy to make it was a nice one howald entered the swedish zone slammed on the breaks and his shot went in by tommy s far post one of the lousiest periods i ve seen sweden play this year second period saw a new swedish team and the swiss had to ice the puck many times on a pp nylander skated in from the boards pavoni made the initial save but peter andersson scored on the rebound then a power play goal from the swiss a slap shot from the blue line hit two players on the way to the goal and past soderstrom also jonas bergqvist made it after a nice pass from naslund behind the goal jan larsson reduced the lead to just before the end of nd period on a pp skated in unattacked in front of the goal and put the puck through pavoni s hole third period sweden equalized on a slap shot from renberg that trickled through pavoni s hole then another defensive mistake by the swedes waeger was allowed to skate around the swedish goal unattacked and from close range could make it hollenstein then scored on a on break away and put it top shelf with no chance for soderstrom switzerland goaltender reto pavoni renatio tosio defense rick tschumi martin steinegger sven leuenberger martin rauch sandro bertaggia patrick sutter samuel balmer forwards alfred luthi felix hollenstein roman waeger gil montandon roberto triulzi patrick howald christian weber andreas ton joerg eberle bruno erni thomas vrabec manuele celio russia canada st can kevin dineen garry galley can paul kariya eric lindros pp nd can eric lindros paul kariya shayne corson rus valeri karpov rd penalties rus min min can min referee anton danko czech republic attendance russia probably made their best game of the tourney but yet there wasn t enough to win against the effective canadians galley took a slap shot that found dineen by the far post and dineen just deflected the puck past trefilov in the russian goal then a power play goal after a couple of deflections eric lindros found kariya alone by the far post and kariya put the puck high over a sliding trefilov russia won the shots in the first period and they had the most of the scoring opportunities but they just couldn t score second period saw lindros scoring his th goal of the wc kariya entered the russian zone slammed on the break to get past his defenseman then made a nice pass to corson who just got the stick on the puck to deflect it to lindros who one timed the puck the russians then finally got their goal karpov broke in from the side and made a slap shot in tugnutt s top right hand corner player of the game in canada was voted paul kariya and for russia valeri karpov i agree the difference in this game was lindros and kariya and in part also tugnutt kariya had a far better game now than vs the swedes and he was very impressive kariya got the place in the line with lindros after mike gartner went out with a rib injury early in the first period lindros btw lead the point scoring with pts before this game pts ahead of the next player i e double as much as the next player among those kariya with amazing group b results finland czech republic st nd cze petr hrbek fin mika alatalo rd cze jiri dolezal cze martin hostak en penalties fin min cze min referee vincent moreno switzerland attendance germany usa st ger raimond hilger ger gerd truntschka ger ernst kopf ger michael rumrich ger benoit doucet nd rd usa derek plante ger dieter hegen usa craig johnson usa rob gaudreau penalties ger min usa min referee valeri bokarev russia attendance staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se r s h contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	nhl playoff results for games played nhl playoff results for conference semi finals best of seven patrick adams norris smythe nj buf leads stl leads win pit leads bos chi van leads nyi tied mon tor la tied was que leads det leads cal toronto maple leafs detroit red wings leads series st period det lidstrom yzerman coffey pp nd period det fedorov sh det yzerman coffey chiasson pp det yzerman coffey sheppard tor mironov gill gilmour rd period tor gilmour anderson det ysebaert kozlov det drake kozlov kennedy powerplay opportunities maple leafs of red wings of shots on goal maple leafs red wings toronto maple leafs potvin shots saves detroit red wings cheveldae shots saves att st louis blues leads series chicago blackhawks st period stl hull brown janney pp stl lowry sh nd period none rd period none powerplay opportunities blues of blackhawks of shots on goal blues blackhawks st louis blues joseph shots saves chicago blackhawks belfour shots saves att los angeles kings series tied calgary flames st period lak carson nd period cal otto roberts macinnis cal yawney dahlquist ranheim cal reichel fleury pp cal nieuwendyk roberts musil cal otto dahl sh rd period lak carson granato shuchuk cal reichel fleury macinnis pp cal paslawski roberts nieuwendyk cal fleury macinnis nieuwendyk pp lak rychel blake lak kurri gretzky zhitnik pp cal suter skrudland berube powerplay opportunities kings of flames of shots on goal kings flames los angeles kings hrudey shots saves calgary flames vernon shots saves att winnipeg jets vancouver canucks leads series st period van ronning courtnall linden nd period van courtnall win domi king barnes rd period win numminen housley selanne pp van bure adams craven powerplay opportunities jets of canucks of shots on goal jets canucks winnipeg jets essensa shots saves vancouver canucks mclean shots saves att spike
rec.sport.hockey	question goalie s equipment have the rules for goalies equipment changed it seems that e g glove has become bigger and bigger all the time and pads too and the goalies are wearing over size jerseys am i dreaming if you watch old photos or films let say about ten years back i think the difference is quite obvious who is an expert on this please let me know or have the goalies become bigger jarkko trouble in scoring
rec.sport.hockey	re kings even series at stauer shines in article rfbldinn qe abyss west sun com dvb ick david van beveren writes vzhivov superior carleton ca vladimir zhivov writes game report deleted it bad ref ing won t affect this series which should only go two more games all things being equal wrong the kings just put on an exibition of hustle team play and consistent pounding and took it back to calgary with the series tied at games each the final score was with the third goal an empty netter at of the third conacher this is not an official game report just my observations from the stands melrose made a wise decision and put stauber back in goal robb had something to prove and he did in stopping of while facing a fierce calgary attack there were numerous highlight film saves kings third and fourth lines rose to the occasion playing rough while avoiding bad penalties warren rychel scored the game winner early in the second period rookie defenseman alexi zhitnik scored the first from the blue line late in the first dave taylor is awesome he suffered a broken nose partway through the second pariod checked from behind into the boards by roberts who got and a game he came back late in the third and was on the ice when conacher scored the empty netter actually it was in the third period his return did bring a spark to the crowd and to the players who played awesome defense in the third the kings go to guys still are not producing no goals from kurri granato sandstrom or robitaille who have a total of points between them you forgot about gretzky if any of these guys start scoring the kings will be unstoppable if they continue the great defensive work as well mccreary sucks he called mcsorely for high sticking someone who was already on the ice and sandstrom for high sticking when he himself was already on the ice he missed many flagrant stick penalties including one from flame goalie jeff reese who followed granato out to almost the blue line where he cross checked him he called the game very inconsistently with a series of ticky tack penalties in the first and almost none in the third can t the nhl supply decent officiating i was sitting directly across the ice from ron and nancy reagan when the empty netter was scored nancy leapt out of her seat with both fists high in the air way to go nancy this series is still too close to call tuesday s game may be the deciding one i expect king might put vernon back in even though reese had two good games in la reese has historically been good in la this was only the second time he lost there this move would be good for the kings since vernon is such a sieve i am sure that stauber will get the call for the kings stauber will be in net on tuesday hopefully he will provide another stellar performance and earn the name robb stopper stauber the firswt two lines of the kings have to wake up while it is great to see you cannot depend on pat conacher and warren rychel for all of your offense i expect sandstrom granato and gretzky might be put back together on a line like they were early in the season this would leave kurri carson and luc as the second on paper these two lines look powerful let s see if they can make it real i believe this is how they are i know it is gretzky and sandstrom but he has been putting a number of people on left also the carson robataille kurri line once ignited will light the fire of the other lines hopefully go kings dvb it is evident that the scoring drought is getting to luc after his slight breakaway in the third i think he was steamed on the bench this emotion might help him break his streak also i have noticed blake has had a few really good chances to score but has fanned or shot wide is the injury still affecting him the e d g e stompkin tuba calpoly edu
rec.sport.hockey	re ettans nya indelning in article apr eua ericsson se euaaen eua ericsson se anders engwall writes om jag f rst tt saken r tt f r vi norra kiruna boden pite skellefte crif v nn s husum stersund antj rn sundsvall timr v stra mora g vle avesta uppsala k ping arvika grums rebro tv lag fr n v stra kvalserien vilka stra arlanda v sby vallentuna ster ker danderyd t by aik hammarby s dert lje t lje huddinge nyk ping roma s dra vita h sten m lndal bor s v stervik hanhals troja ljungby m rrum pantern tv lag fr n s dra kvalserien f r det f rsta r det principiellt fel att man har ndrat premisserna f r uppflyttning i efterhand f r det andra kan man ju undra varf r just stersund och v stervik skall f en fri sl ng ja i fallet stersund r det solklart en fix f r ovan n mnda problem med norrgruppen men v stervik r det m nne f r att nyk ping skall slippa spela i s der vilket de klagat ver vad tror ni man s ger i exempelvis tierp som kom a i stra kvalet kommentarer att man skulle bli tvyngen att ndra premisserna kunde man inte lista ut p f rhand huvudsak att man inte flyttar ner fel lag stersund var en solklar fix som sagt men v stervik att det beror p nyk ping tror jag inte p man kunde ju lika g rna flytta ner roma till s dra iaf om man g r efter bredgraderna mest r ttvist vore att l ta tierp och v stervik g ra upp men d skulle roma nyk pinks vara eller inte vara i stra ocks avg ras vad skulle de s ga om det det st rsta felet med rets indelning r exakt samma som f rra ret fast v rre det r inte r tvist indelat sportligt sett vallentuna var en match fr n att g upp till allsvenskan f rra ret ist llet gick g vle upp tror ni n n av dem lyckas lika bra i r aik hif ssk och hik ska sl ss om tv platser om man hadde placerat dessa i var sin division skulle de vara sj lvklara favoriter till en plats i allsvenskan men nu m ste tv ge vika var finns r ttvisan i det jag har h rt att hik har l mnat in en protest till f rbundet ang ende indelningen i stra mitt f rslag vore att l ta orna i varje division kvalspela om tv platser i allsvenskan och efter jul skulle man kunna sl ihop de fyra divisionerna till tv en s der och en norr p s s tt bestraffas inte ett lag som kommer fr n en trakt d r det finns m nga bra lag en kul grej som jag nskar att man inf rde r att l ta vinnaren i allsvenskan f spela i sm slutspelet det skulle bli en extra krydda till division ett ishockeyn om lagen k nde att de var inom r ckh ll till sm bucklan det skulle kanske p sikt ocks kunna minska skillnaderna mellan lag i elitserien och division ett vad s js anders engwall email anders engwall eua ericsson se ellemtel utvecklings ab voice lvsj sweden fax h ll dom som brygger puns ock ger pyanlektionor c a toll n marek marek repinski eos ericsson se man skall inte anv nda fr mmande ericsson telecom ab ord om man har en adekvat inhemsk system design division vokabul r disponibel sweden gunnar emanuel str ng gur pbbxvr jnf va fjrqvfu vg jbag uryc jvgu ebg
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl letter quite long in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes in apr sol ctr columbia edu phoenix startide ctr columbia edu ali lemer writes i m not even going to bother to reply to your ranting post the letter is addressed to gary bettman not you he can reply as he wishes not so your post is addressed to all i quote as she said the letter is addressed to bettman the post which though having pretty much the same content is an entirely different entity was addressed to all when she puts the letter in the mail i doubt it will say to all i figure she wanted to let people here see what was in it since it is a topic that interests a lot of folks here that s an entirely different purpose than sending the letter to bettman unfortunately and i guess i let you know didn t i you do not represent a large body of hockey fans by any standard you care to use to define large people constitutes nothing more than a tiny group of fanatics and is in no way representative of a large body of hockey fans on the internet let alone of one of the largest computer networks in the world the largest computer networks in the world phrase is a definition of the internet not a group as a whole that she claims to represent as for the business of whether or not it is large it is large compared to say the number of folks on r s h who are sending a letter to thank him for changing the names at least to this point and just for my own curiosity i thought i d look up the official definition of large in the dictionary it reads large having more than usual power capacity or scope exceeding most other things of like kind in quantity or size now i have no idea how many letters bettman may have gotten on the issue or how many people may have signed them people may be up there thereby validating definition i would also wager that the geographical range of signatures is quite large which would give it a large scope he might be impressed by the size of the list of names why would he be impressed with this unless it were large i am of course assuming that you actually agree with what you are writing and are not simply trying to be a pain about the whole issue to hear yourself speak i personally don t know whether or not i agree with the letter i have very mixed emotions about it i like the names as they are and don t think they make it that difficult to learn the game but there might be a shred of validity to the change paul w francisco in the shadow an angel cries catcher netcom com front line assembly
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl letter roger s response again i assume this is not just flame bait by roger but actually a truly held opinion in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes i would say that the letter clearly implies representation of the views of a group that i belong to and i don t share those views and i don t believe that the majority of posters on r s hockey share those views and so i have no intention of allowing them to simply go ahead without making my feelings on the subject clear thanks for speaking for all those who didn t feel it was important enough to say something themselves i wouldn t say that the letter clearly implies representation of the views of a group that you belong to it represents a subset that you don t belong to of a larger group which you do if only because this isn t a moderated group look there are several ways to state an opposing viewpoint three that come to mind are as follows say it subtly result it may not be clear say it directly yet politely result probably it will spark some interesting conversation say it directly and obnoxiously result validity goes right out the window i would agree that unwarranted use of said term is entirely immature you realize that anything you say can and most certainly will be used against you paul w francisco in the shadow an angel cries catcher netcom com front line assembly
rec.sport.hockey	re wings ogrodnick in article qfpfqak vot bpedd andrew cmu edu mike molloy mmaq andrew cmu edu writes i haven t seen any mention of ogrodnick yet in the box scores does anyone know if he s playing mike he s been out but he isn t injured he played well when he was put into the lineup at the end of the season murray has to sit somebody out though if the red wings hadn t played as well as they did in the first game he may have been in the second why should murray juggle players when the wings are dominating toronto like they are
rec.sport.hockey	re sharks review part left wings in article r jsk v apple com chuq apple com chuq von rospach writes paul fugu data io com paul brownlow writes wood played most of his junior career in seattle he was one of the leading scorers on a mediocre team when he was traded away in he rarely lost a fight and was one of the toughest players in the whl wood is fairly small for an enforcer type i mean fleury does a pretty good job and isn t that large but dody is no fleury and fleury is no enforcer an agitator for sure but fleury never has and never will have a fight which seems to be what you re saying wood is the closest fleury ever came to fighting was a game two years ago against los angeles there was a scrum and mcsorley pinched fleury s head under his arm fleury dropped his gloves and gave mcsorley a weak shot to the side of the head mcsorely knowing a good thing when he saw one popped fleury one right between the eyes end of fight fleury got ten stitches for his trouble the only player i can ever see theo fighting is cliff ronning and even then he d be giving up two inches and pounds alan
rec.sport.hockey	re don cherry help me out here in article apr alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes in article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes in article apr alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes john madden picks gary clark of the redskins for his all madden team a lot over much better receivers for much the same reasons cherry sings the praises of doug gilmour a little guy with heart yet one doesn t see a string of american posts saying that john madden has lost his marbles maybe because john madden doesn t pretend that his all madden team is the team of the best players maybe because john madden doesn t feel the need to denigrate players he doesn t choose for his all madden team maybe because madden actually demonstrates some knowledge about football when he broadcasts a game don cherry doesn t denigrate players except those who dive showboat wield their sticks as weapons while hiding behind visors or deliberating attempt to injure or aggravate the injuries of others not always true in fact in the case of doug gilmour he actually praises them europeans that do those things are scum in cherry s opinion canadian kids that do them are tough just like a real canadian ulf samuelsson cheap shots mark messier s ribs and don wants ulf s head doug gilmour breaks tomas sandstrom s arm and don says sandstrom had it coming methinks don is either very confused or just a bigot most likely the latter i used to like don cherry i thought he was great but i m starting to see his true colors redneck and the more i see of them the more i think he s just an asshole alan
rec.sport.hockey	makarov in article apr csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes i don t think the sharks should dig into the free agent market most of the good free agents will require quite a bit of compensation and set the sharks back as far as player development goes remember the sharks were unwilling to give up player s in addition to the million they offered for joe murphy and i think that s a good approach they tried to sign sergei makarov before this season because makarov wouldn t have required compensation matching the makarov offer was the only real mistake dave king has made this year i have to wonder about the intelligence of signing a year old who is obviously on the downside of his career to a year million contract risebrough matched the offer on king s request and makarov has spent the last quarter of the season in the press box because his work ethic just plain stinks not to mention that he s lost a step and can no longer get himself into position to make the nifty passes i think makarov will be available for free this offseason to anybody who agrees to pay his contract he s ineffective in calgary but he might be able to help a team like san jose with their shortage of talent if there s no takers and makarov doesn t show improvement in training camp i think the flames will just bite the bullet and buy out makarov s contract and release him with his current attitude he is a detriment to the team alan
rec.sport.hockey	more hart trophy stuff in article r bkvinn nm abyss west sun com dvb ick david van beveren writes when you think of the nhl who comes to mind gilmour gretzky mario ah did i mention mario if you said gretzky you haven t really been following along have you if you said gilmour you are a true maynard i don t even think the selection of the hart deserves serious discussion on this group it is a no brainer while i agree that lemieux deserves the hart it is far from a no brainer the hart trophy goes to the player most valuable to his team not to the best player in the league so your above arguement is really worthless the pens without mario are still a damn good hockey team the leafs without gilmour would have been fighting tampa bay for the rd pick like i said mario deserves it imho but it is a very close race and a gilmour victory would not surprise me i dislike doug gilmour with a passion but i must concede that he is extremely valuable to the leafs alan
rec.sport.hockey	re ranger fans in article apr eagle wesleyan edu writes i for one am happy about the ranger s hiring of keenan it s too bad that they didn t hire him when smith fired nielsen maybe he could of staightened out the babies on this team and made the playoffs what this team needs is a little fire under their butts reading through most of these hockey news i don t see many ranger fans writing i m new to this system and a big hockey fan and a long suffering ranger fan but remember suffering builds character i have some final questions about the way the team was handled in that last dreadful stretch knowing they needed offensive help from the blueline why didn t we see mike hurlbut who played pretty well when he was called up when leetch first went down why is joe kocur playing every night he is not bob probert who is tough but also can play how come paul broten is relegated to street clothes for the end of the season at least he plays with some heart and character draws penalties and plays when he s on the ice was he in the doghouse for some reason joe cirella enough said ranger fans may be suffering but we re some of the most loyal unlike islander fans who only show up when the team wins as far as the stanley cup goes i think there s only one team that can test pittsburgh and that s detroit this would be the most entertaining and hard fought series mario is amazing kurt i think joe kocus should play every night he is a big physical guy and he gets the fans into the game with some big hits both checks and fists its a big advantage to get the crowd going plus he helps protect the other players notice there are very few fights when kocur is on the ice unless he is it i have seen people start to go after essa tikkanen only to go slinking away when kocur steps in i think he is big asset but should be third line and special situation only play
rec.sport.hockey	re sharks review part the trades nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes acquired c marcus thuresson from n y islanders for rw brian mullen grade i b c it is not known yet what the impact overall of this trade would be as thuresson is not yet under contract to the sharks and does not appear to be ready to become so anytime soon mullen meanwhile has had a productive somewhat season with the islanders thuresson however does not appear to be a big scorer at all if my memory is right he had just points in just games in the swedish elite league in this season i didn t notice his name frequently at all in staffan s reports and he didn t make the national team either it does not appear to be a good sign marcus thuresson had goals assists points and pim in games this season for leksand in the swedish elite league this was only th in point scoring for leksand marcus born may ht cm wt kg is relatively young so he might still start producing but i think the sharks may have done a bad trade here staffan staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se r s h contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	re and you think espn shafted you in article bb bf rrhammer vm cmp ilstu edu rrhammer vm cmp ilstu edu writes like many others i too was watching the caps isles game when the went to the baseball game i too was pissed how could they interupt such an important game i understand about contracts but you would think they would have a clause in the contract concerning important games anyway us blues and hawks fans got shafted worse while everyone in the u s and watched the game on abc however those of us who live in the central illinois area were subjected to watching the arthritus telethon the area that was most affected by the telecast did not get to see the game except through hawk vision this game had it been televised would have been the first home hawks game shown in the area since this television bull has got to stop we are not only being deprived of seeing games due to skyrocketing ticket prices but we are also being deprived of watching them on tv peace hammer i m familiar with the telethon situation an individual on compuserve was also victimized and was equally pissed that was a local television station contract which could not be broken for that item i strongly suggest you call that affiliate and vent your anger on them supposedly one station had told my friend that they have received hundreds of angry calls which will translate into far less incentive to pre empt hockey telecasts in future the contract was written when the pathetic wlaf was in that time slot tom galvin galvint taurus cs nps navy mil
rec.sport.hockey	re espn f ck up in article wavefront wti com matthew wavefront wti com matt coohill writes okay here s some gripe ing griping whatever i live in santa barbara for reference i think okay abc showed the kings flames fine yawn espn through a fortunate rainout of a baseball game showed the red wings toronto game cool but i swear that the advertisements all week long had said that espn would show pitt nj on tuesday and bos buff on thursday i raced home from work early pacific to catch the game but alas it was the boston buffalo game and then they promised that they would show the pitt nj game on thursday overnight they changed their mind rest deleted espn never committed and i never saw advertised to a particular thursday game they had originally scheduled bos buf and that was somehow leaked on this net but to my knowledge espn never publicly released a schedule until monday when they announced pitt nj thursday and boston buffalo saturday tom galvin galvint taurus cs nps navy mil
rec.sport.hockey	re espn in article randolin polisci umn edu randolin polisci umn edu robert andolina writes the thing that confuses me most about espn is that they decided to show the penguins and devils again on thursday night being that both of the first two games were dominated by pitt you would think that they would show a different game this is in addition to the fact that they should show other games just for the sake of fair exposure nesn owns the rights to bruin telecasts i suspect that nesn was only going to sell one telecast to espn remember espn only owns exclusive rights to the finals not the entire playoffs since espn bought the sca contract there are less wrangles to untie with showing the devils and penguins also some of you should know that as far as i can tell espn is not going to show campbell conference games regularly in the first two rounds i believe that they are only going to show campbell games in the first two rounds as those series wear on games or perhaps games i think the same broadcast rights factor comes into it plus they have no way of fitting western game times into their current schedule unless the nhl was willing to make a western club move up their game i think the nhl got as much as it could when it shuffled the deck for abc also does anyone have info on abc coverage for this sunday same exact coverage as last week pit nj game in the east chi stl in the central la cgy in the mountains and west robert andolina randolin polisci umn edu tom galvin galvint taurus cs nps navy mil
rec.sport.hockey	re habs late in article apr newshub ists ca dchhabra stpl ists ca deepak chhabra writes vincent damphousse has decided to take a vacation apparently i have my respect for the power of the hockey gods is preventing me from commenting on the above and for commenting on whether the guy damphousse was traded for is on vacation or not perhaps roger demonstrably in contempt of the hockey gods and paying for it dares a comment or two mike eisler mre eng sun com not only are they leafs the best team but their fans are even more intelligent and insightful than pittsburgh s their players are mighty bright too i mean he really was going to get his wallet back right jan brittenson on leaf pen woofers in rec sport hockey
rec.sport.hockey	re let s go buffalo in article rap psuvm psu edu robbie po rap psuvm psu edu writes in article afpiknm wbli isj andrew cmu edu william k willis ww a andrew cmu edu says you know i never really appreciated them before looks like bob errey s ring really sparkles in that locker room and everyone else wants one too correct me if i m wrong though just through no fuhr s rings out sparkle errey s and doesn t bob have rings mike eisler mre eng sun com not only are they leafs the best team but their fans are even more intelligent and insightful than pittsburgh s their players are mighty bright too i mean he really was going to get his wallet back right jan brittenson on leaf pen woofers in rec sport hockey
rec.sport.hockey	re buffalo boston defense in article r s q b hsdndev harvard edu nhmas gauss med harvard edu mark shneyder writes bruins have never come back to win after falling behind in their entire year history which doesn t mean much since the statistics are mostly based on the game playoff format but yes it looks dark for the b s what a disappointment still i think the problem is mental they needed the saves blue came up with perhaps he can offer something to mentally rally around who do you think gets the start in game three i hope it is going to be blue if the team can rally around him maybe moog can too jan brittenson bson gnu ai mit edu
rec.sport.hockey	re pens fans reactions i m really impressed with bowman s coaching tactics he s had an answer for every move that brooks has thrown at the pens susan dart such as jake
rec.sport.hockey	re flames final kings destroyed vzhivov superior carleton ca vladimir zhivov writes flames final score calgary l a things are back to where they belong gretzky didn t play kelly hrudey is his old self again let s hope the flames put the old timers away asap vlad the impaler yes these last couple of months the kinngs have failed to show up in about one game in five presumably last night was that one game in five jon
rec.sport.hockey	sharks jack feirerra was re sharks kingston fired in article jgl apple com chuq apple com chuq von rospach writes snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes of course ferreira had also traded a number of veterans with marginal contributions before he was fired so it s not clear that this would have been different besides they were marginal contributors let s also not forget that ferreira came this close to trading kelly kisio which if the rumors i ve heard are true was over the strong objections of other aspects of shark management and probably had a lot to do with both his ouster and the three headed consensus oriented gm imagine for a second where the sharks would be today if that fax machine hadn t jammed on the other hand i m hard pressed to think of any other real mistakes fereirra made imagine indeed but then again we have the benefit of hindsight let s say that in the view of the sharks upper management the attempt to trade kisio was a major factor in the decision to fire feirerra i m inclined to take exactly the opposite view they should have kept him he s obviously the luckiest man in hockey wonder what sacrifice he made to the muse of fax his job i guess have fun gak richard stueven aha he has erected a multitude of new internet gak wrs com go offices and sent hither swarms attmail attmail gakhaus gak sharx of officers to harass our people cow palace h and eat out their substance
rec.sport.hockey	re lemieux s getting the hart jeez i hope not in article apr unbvm csd unb ca patrick walker f hh unb ca wrote who should get the hart gretzky not in a million years at least not this year he hasn t played all year yzerman though it would be nice i don t think he ll get it he s consistent but not well known thought he should be mario jesus no it s bad enough for me just to utter the word without being extremely sick and pissed off they guy s a luber i think he should become a stuntman after he retires jeez he ha s enough expericene falling down oope stick didn t come anywhe re near me gotta fall got to get a penalty against the other team it s the annual whine a thon with today s host jerry lewis by the way i am canadian play a little and watched hockey night in canada never missed a show not one of these well a my home team is in the finals and i was a hockey fan for ten minutes now give me a f king break with this mario is the best player ever what did gretzky die i wish bobby clarke and the broadstreet bullies were still around they d know what to do with a whouse like mario they d bounce him around like the puck not that i condone violence but i ll make an exception for mario but if mario is going to complain about being hit someone should give him and scotty something real to complain about sorry to ramble as you can see i hate mario pat walker unb you along with mario lemieux must be from another planet the only difference is that lemieux comes from the one with geo washington abe lincoln and many other great men and women of this world whereas you come from the one with david koresh yeah mario is good at drawing penalties but wouldn t you try do something you do claim to play to give your team an advantage i don t remember lemieux getting any diving penalties this year whereas many others did finally mario has never complained about being hit he knows it s part of the game he gets back by dishing out an even bigger hit to the same guy or just scoring a few goals or setting them up don t you have any compassion for a man who has gone through so much in his life george
rec.sport.hockey	re s in article r on p bigboote wpi edu ching bigwpi wpi edu the logistician writes i am in need of all of the players wearing in the nhl i know now only of one ray borque for the bruins any help would be greatly appreciated thanx the logistician reigns supreme go blue go tigers go pistons go lions go red wings ching wpi wpi edu pierre turgeon of nyi and paul coffey of detorit are both hope this help anson
rec.sport.hockey	re pens fans reactions terence rokop writes richard j coyle writes that s not inner calm it s boredom and it s being spoiled the arena s been as quiet as a church on many nights this year too many of us just take winning for granted it s been seemingly forever since the team lost and we ve forgotten what it s like to feel real excitement and surprise at victory i don t really agree with this but it is an entirely different high at any rate the first cup the pens won i didn t think about anything else i just watched mario and all skate the thing around the ice now it seems to be more of a question whether or not thirty years from now young hockey fans may there be millions will still ask us what it was like to watch this team that s what they are playing for now but i was still as nervous as ever when the devils were blasting shots at barrasso in the final seconds of game three so the fun is far from over yet i m not bored either most people i know say that winning the second cup was better than the first but to me nothing will ever top that first one but i m every bit as excited this year and i am experiencing that inner calm to which susan originally referred inner calm is not boredom as far as the arena in general being boring well richard s got that right it s been that way all season i attribute it to a lot of new fans who just don t have the same spirit and knowledge as long time fans at last tuesday s game i overheard a man express surprise that a goaltender can get an assist anyone who follows sports with regularity knows that anything can happen at any time i m confident in the pens but i m also not stupid enough to think for one minute that it s impossible for new jersey to blow them out of this series i doubt that will happen but it s possible bored uh uh spoiled not in the least forgot what excitement is like living through that amazing streak wasn t exciting i don t take a darned thing for granted god look at chicago and i see no problem with quietly savoring all of this anyway it isn t gonna last forever and i intend to enjoy it while i can mom
rec.sport.hockey	nhl alltime scoring leaders here are the nhl s alltime leaders in goals and points at the end of the season again much thanks to joseph achkar carl notes an active player is a player that has scored at least one point the past season the points leaders follow the goal leaders if you find any mistakes please send me email all time nhl leading goal scorers denotes active player gordie howe det hfd wayne gretzky edm la marcel dionne det la nyr phil esposito chi bos nyr bobby hull chi wpg hfd mike gartner wsh min nyr mike bossy nyi guy lafleur mtl nyr que johnny bucyk det bos maurice richard mtl stan mikita chi frank mahovlich tor det mtl michel goulet que chi jari kurri edm la bryan trottier nyi pit gilbert perreault buf jean beliveau mtl lanny mcdonald tor col cgy jean ratelle nyr bos norm ullman det tor dino ciccarelli min wsh det darryl sittler tor phi det mario lemieux pit glenn anderson edm tor alex delvecchio det mark messier edm nyr dale hawerchuk wpg buf rick middleton nyr bos steve yzerman det peter stastny que nj rick vaive van tor chi buf joe mullen stl cgy pit yvan cournoyer mtl dave taylor la steve shutt mtl la denis savard chi mtl bill barber phi brian propp phi bos min gary unger tor det stl atl la edm rod gilbert nyr steve larmer chi john ogrodnick det que nyr other active players bernie nicholls la nyr edm nj pat lafontaine nyi buf brian bellows min mtl dave andreychuk buf tor tim kerr phi nyr hfd bobby smith min mtl brett hull cgy stl luc robitaille la mike foligno det buf tor dave christian wpg wsh bos stl chi paul coffey edm pit la det brent sutter nyi chi pat verbeek nj hfd ron francis hfd pit cam neely van bos ray bourque bos bob carpenter wsh nyr la bos tor brent ashton van col nj min que det wpg bos cgy doug gilmour stl cgy tor rick tocchet phi pit kevin dineen hfd phi tomas sandstrom nyr la dale hunter que wsh ryan walter wsh mtl van brian mullen wpg nyr sj nyi ed olczyk chi tor wpg nyr kirk muller nj mtl joe nieuwendyk cgy jimmy carson la edm det all time nhl scoring leaders denotes active player wayne gretzky edm la gordie howe det hfd marcel dionne det la nyr phil esposito chi bos nyr stan mikita chi bryan trottier nyi pit johnny bucyk det bos guy lafleur mtl nyr que gilbert perreault buf alex delvecchio det jean ratelle nyr bos mark messier edm nyr norm ullman det tor peter stastny que nj jean beliveau mtl dale hawerchuk wpg buf bobby clarke phi paul coffey edm pit la det denis savard chi mtl jari kurri edm la mario lemieux pit bobby hull chi wpg hfd bernie federko stl mike bossy nyi michel goulet que chi darryl sittler tor phi det mike gartner wsh min nyr frank mahovlich tor det mtl ray bourque bos dave taylor la denis potvin nyi henri richard mtl steve yzerman det bobby smith min mtl rod gilbert nyr glenn anderson edm tor lanny mcdonald tor col cgy rick middleton nyr bos dave keon tor hfd ron francis hfd pit bernie nicholls la nyr edm nj brian propp phi bos min andy bathgate nyr tor det pit maurice richard mtl larry robinson mtl la dino ciccarelli min wsh det steve larmer chi joe mullen stl cgy pit bobby orr bos chi brad park nyr bos det butch goring la nyi bos bill barber phi dennis maruk cal cle wsh min ivan boldirev bos cal chi atl van det yvan cournoyer mtl dean prentice nyr bos det pit min ted lindsay det chi tom lysiak atl chi dale hunter que wsh john tonelli nyi cgy la chi que jacques lemaire mtl larry murphy la wsh min pit john ogrodnick det que nyr doug wilson chi sj doug gilmour stl cgy tor red kelly det tor pierre larouche pit mtl hfd nyr bernie geoffrion mtl nyr steve shutt mtl la phil housley buf wpg wilf paiment kc col tor que nyr buf pit peter mcnab buf bos van nj brian bellows min mtl dave andreychuk buf tor pit martin det bos chi van pat lafontaine nyi buf ken linesman phi edm bos gary unger tor det stl atl la edm ken hodge sr chi bos nyr neal broten min wayne cashman bos rick vaive van tor chi buf borje salming tor det jean pronovost pit atl wsh peter mahovlich det mtl pit dave christian wpg wsh bos stl chi rick kehoe tor pit rick macleish phi hfd pit det thomas steen wpg other active players al macinnis cgy luc robitaille la mike foligno det buf tor brent sutter nyi chi mark howe hfd phi det kirk muller nj mtl tim kerr phi nyr hfd adam oates det stl bos randy carlyle tor pit wpg ryan walter wsh mtl van pat verbeek nj hfd brent ashton van col nj min que det wpg bos cgy bob carpenter wsh nyr la bos tor brian mullen wpg nyr sj nyi ed olczyk chi tor wpg nyr kelly kisio det nyr sj brett hull cgy stl rick tocchet phi pit dan quinn cgy pit van stl phi min scott stevens wsh stl nj tomas sandstrom nyr la tom fergus bos tor van dave babych wpg hfd van mike ridley nyr wsh laurie boschman tor edm wpg nj ott keith acton mtl min edm phi murray craven det phi hfd kevin dineen hfd phi rob ramage col stl cgy tor min tb mike krushelnyski bos edm la tor gary suter cgy pierre turgeon buf nyi troy murray chi wpg cam neely van bos geoff courtnall bos edm wsh stl van vincent damphousse tor edm mtl jimmy carson la edm det peter zezel phi stl wsh tor guy carbonneau mtl mark osborne det nyr tor wpg chris chelios mtl chi dave poulin phi bos ray ferraro hfd nyi russ courtnall tor mtl min joe nieuwendyk cgy john maclean nj
rec.sport.hockey	now if espn wanted to show a good game they could put on a quebec montreal game talk a bout areivalry opps rivalry roland roland
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl draft cs ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes as for the picks ottawa picks which means it is almost that alexander daigle will go he ll either stay or be traded in montreal or quebec i dunno about hat i have friends up there on genie who are now saying that ottawa s gone soft on daigle and is thinking hard about pronger daigle has shown an attitude the latter part of this season many folks havne t liked and after coming back from his second multi game suspension for being stupid he s really tanked in his performance his stock is dropping like a rock also remember that a lot of teh draft st stuff comes from the assumption he ll be traded to quebec for lots of prospects it s not clear that quebec would really be willing to pay a lot for him given his current status he s still first round but i don t consider him a first pick lock by any means at this point it s also possible that the senators are posturing to try to bring down his signing price since daigle has been taking some lindros lessons during thos suspensions imo i would take kariya he should alot of leadership in the ncaa and so far in the world championships daigle didn t show this for his junior team san jose will then get kariya no kariya won t go in the first three for a very simple reason he s not leaving college and i don t believe any of the expansion teams are going to use a first for someone who won t be around for another year or two not when there is equally good or almost as good stuff available that can make an immediate impact san jose seems to be leaning heavily towards niedermayer for that reason kariya could go th or th unless a team can convince him to leave school early which i doubt my cut on things as they stand today draft order ottawa daigle if not pronger san jose niedermayer unless ottawa skips daigle then it s open it depends on if the sharks can get a deal for him i don t believe they draft him to keep him tampa bay whoever ottawa doesn t take or maybe koslov chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants a san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.hockey	re sharks kingston fired spiegel sgi msd lmsc lockheed com mark spiegel writes gaetz may or may not be back next year but in either event the sharks have to pick up others gaetz won t be back there s been rumors he was officially released right at the end of the season when his contract expired but i haven t seen confirmation it was clear from my talks with the sharks doctors that he wasn t going to make it for a while and the sharks would have to sign him to a contract which given his problems competing at the ihl level this spring doesn t make sense chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants a san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.hockey	re bruins joe pitt edu joseph b stiehm writes come on boston where the hell are you seven wins in a row and what choke ah well another brian sutter team is ground into the dirt with intensity during the regular season and then is burned out by playoff time yah fuhr has been awesome so far but really you d think sutter would have learned his lesson about pushing his team too far during the regular season stuart esrock bowling green state u how bout them blues
rec.sport.hockey	re camera work on televised games in article apr vax cit cornell edu yecx vax cit cornell edu writes is it just me or is the camera work on some of these games really sad i can t remember how many times during the penguins devils game they showed some guy without the puck being checked in the corner while the puck was being fired on goal in fact i think they even missed one goal completely because they were showing two guys holding each other in the corner now the last time i watched a football game they didn t show the lineman going at it while the running back turned the corner for a touchdown is it just me greg espn has been trying various things to get away from the follow the puck concept of televising hockey games one of the main problems with hockey is that it is very difficult to show everything that is going on more happens away from the puck than in any other sport except maybe football and they can do iso s on football players to be shown between plays the problem of course is that sometimes you get something worthwhile other times you get burned tom galvin galvint taurus cs nps navy mil
rec.sport.hockey	re joseph and blues shut down warthawks blues up cr cleveland freenet edu jim schenk writes one last point darryl sutter is getting badly out coached by bob berry the madder darryl gets the more he reminds me of brian the hawks are quickly loosing thier focus i don t think the blues will win in but you never know not to sutter bash or anything since i idolized them as players you sure would think the sutters would learn something about burning out their teams in the regular season just too much intensity during the regular season i earlier posted a note about brian and got to thinking after i read this item gee both sutters won their divisions and now both have lost home ice advantage and are getting smoked in their opening series in the playoffs kind of makes you wonder bottom line man it is great to be smoking the warthawks agreed jim this has been damn sweet so far about the only thing that comes close to this is shutting up all the maple laugh fans detroit has completely kicked their asses so far but i will stick with the blues for providing the best playoff tonic so far stuart esrock bowling green state u go you blues
rec.sport.hockey	playoff consecutive loss record with the recent demise of the chicago blawkhawks much to my delight i noticed their game playoff losing streak to the pens last year and now to the blues and i am wondering what the nhl record for consecutive losses is if there even is one i m pretty sure that the hawks have at least a game losing streak since they ve had to have lost a series since their last championship whenever that was basically i need something else to rag on my hawks fan friend with mike the insomniaced yes rush marillion emerson lake and palmer genesis dream theater mike weintraub aka jvi on irc sig quote du jour mweintr american edu life is like a scissors paper jedi wave cerf net stone game none of the answers the american university is always right but sometimes washington dc each one is neil peart rush go philadelphia phillies and vancouver canucks down to go
rec.sport.hockey	re lemieux s getting the hart jeez i hope not in article apr unbvm csd unb ca patrick walker f hh unb ca writes who should get the hart gretzky not in a million years at least not this year he hasn t played all year yzerman though it would be nice i don t think he ll get it he s consistent but not well known thought he should be mario jesus no it s bad enough for me just to utter the word without being extremely sick and pissed off they guy s a luber to ramble as you can see i hate mario pat walker unb i m not going to bother reprinting your pathetic excuse for a post mario fan or not you have to respect what he can do with a blade as for the hart trophy i guess winning the scoring title after being out twenty four days with cancer then leading his team to the presidents trophy and breaking the win streak record in the process shouldn t even qualify him for the award maybe next year he ll tend a few games when barrasso needs a rest be realistic mario has earned every one of his accolades and deserves all the attention that he gets lose the jealous attitude and you may start enjoying hockey at its finest maze
rec.sport.hockey	belfour and roenick playoff houdinis have belfour and roenick done another disappearing act at chips are down time when i saw them it looked like the blackhawks defense might carry them along way in the playoffs well they held st louis to shots in game and lost looks like maybe keenan had has some insight to me
rec.sport.hockey	re ranger fans in article apr alleg edu ballb reis alleg edu brett ball writes in article apr eagle wesleyan edu writes i for one am happy about the ranger s hiring of keenan it s too bad that they didn t hire him when smith fired nielsen maybe he could of staightened out the babies on this team and made the playoffs what this team needs is a little fire under their butts reading through most of these hockey news i don t see many ranger fans writing i m new to this system and a big hockey fan and a long suffering ranger fan but remember suffering builds character i have some final questions about the way the team was handled in that last dreadful stretch knowing they needed offensive help from the blueline why didn t we see mike hurlbut who played pretty well when he was called up when leetch first went down why is joe kocur playing every night he is not bob probert who is tough but also can play how come paul broten is relegated to street clothes for the end of the season at least he plays with some heart and character draws penalties and plays when he s on the ice was he in the doghouse for some reason joe cirella enough said ranger fans may be suffering but we re some of the most loyal unlike islander fans who only show up when the team wins as far as the stanley cup goes i think there s only one team that can test pittsburgh and that s detroit this would be the most entertaining and hard fought series mario is amazing kurt i think joe kocus should play every night he is a big physical guy and he gets the fans into the game with some big hits both checks and fists its a big advantage to get the crowd going plus he helps protect the other players notice there are very few fights when kocur is on the ice unless he is it i have seen people start to go after essa tikkanen only to go slinking away when kocur steps in i think he is big asset but should be third line and special situation only play this is fast becoming a game without the goons i admit kocur may get the fans into the game but surely they would rather see broten taking a pass from kovalev and scoring a breakaway goal to put the rangers up magic goals in the third period rather than seeing kocur take another stupid penalty and the rangers giving up another powerplay goal the rangers need another top flight center who can take the pressure off messier and the first line nemchinov is a perfect third line center so who goes beezer or richter kurt
rec.sport.hockey	binghampton rangers playoff games does anyone know if msg will televise any of the binghampton rangers playoff games even taped replays would be nice
rec.sport.hockey	re pens broadcasters in article mfqk o awn sskqm andrew cmu edu nathan robert peters np andrew cmu edu writes rumor has it here in pittsburgh that there is going to be a penguins broadcasting change before next season according to the rumor the kbl leadership the company the broadcasts the pen s games wants to limit loved broadcaster mike lange to radio only and hire don cherry as his broadcast partner this would mean paul stiegerwald would be fired good riddance does anyone know anything about this lange is a fun broadcaster to listen to and pens games wouldn t be the same without him also i hear cherry doesn t have high opinions of lemieux ulf sammuelsson or jaromir jagr how is he supposed to broadcast their games i believe that the large number of digits on his paycheck and it would not be binary would help don to be a fan of ulf jaro and mario nate peters lifetime penguins fan even from before they were the best kevin l stamber purdue university top reasons the pittsburgh penguins won the patrick division a strong desire to get the cup back to your neighborhood eat n park where there s always something special cooking
rec.sport.hockey	re buffalo boston defense i m personally expecting moog blue played fairly decent alright spectacular at times in his a game but moog has the experience what did blue have going for him nothing what would happen in a tie game the prssure is then on the goal tender to insure that you keep the puck out at the very least until your team scores blue didn t face that kind of pressure on tuesday the bruins will come out storming that is for sure i really think that this series is up to buffalo boston except for two bad passes in game one really hasn t played that bad as a believer is statistics you know that your going to get the puck by fuhr sooner or later just keep shooting there game plan is sound but they need to take the lead first and control the tempo imho pat ellis p s go bruins go umaine black bears number hockey east regulars season champions hockey east tournament champions paul kariya hobey baker award winner ncaa div hockey tournament champions m a i n e ggggooooooo bbbllluueeee
rec.sport.hockey	re oilers for sale golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes the probability is that the oilers are not going anywhere gerald look at what happened to the stars they are off to dallas pocklington has chosen this moment to make his last stand is because he is at the moment of maximum advantage the provincial government is months away from a provincial election it is the moment when he has maximum power to convince northlands to give him a better arena deal or a better purchase price and it is before the nhl s new collective agreement with the players which might involve some enhanced revenue sharing gerald the alberta election is slated fou june unless something re ally goes wrong this time pocklington could end up being the embarassment of klein if he goes ahead with his ultimatum pocklington is many things stupid is not one of them gerald people still have an axe to grind with this guy i cannot see him staying for long he can dictate terms because other cities will pay his price if edmonton doesn t but the people in edmonton won t budge trust me on this one edmonton has already up its international airport and surrendered supremacy to calgary and over the next few years edmonton is going to take a hard hit from government cutbacks it will screw itself beyond recogniton if it manages to find a way to lose its hockey team too because northlands wants to continue to use the oilers to subsidize horse racing northlands won t budge ccording to one of the board members bruce campbell however in this case about the long term financial viability of the oilers the fact is that pocklington is basically right regardless of who owns the team and it is right to provoke the crisis now before the team accumulates millions of dollars in losses or becomes habitually uncompetitive because of lack of money i haven t heard anything but attendance at the coliseum was the lowest this year hint hint remeber what i said about a personal vendetta sather has done his job the oilers are poised to be competitive again very soon al strachan one of the most knowledgeble hockey writers in canada in a post mortem of the oilers season in the globe and mail recently agrees with me gerald don t blame sather this battle between the peole and pocklington started in and got worst when pocklington sold gretzky there were days when you can shake the hand of pocklington when he was respectalbe i use to do so in season but those days are goe gerald btw when following up please delete name of posting writer dave shariff yadallee b sc econ math u of alberta yadalle amisk cs ualberta ca god save the queen god bless us all remember jesus saves lives from eternal damnation newfoundland keep good old clyde vote liberal
rec.sport.hockey	re leafs now favoured in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes once again the leafs overcame the red wings in what was possibly the most exciting game played yet in this playoff year potvin was solid and wendel completely dominated probert gilmour as usual was the best player on the ice and to those who claim that andreychuk fades in the playoffs please take note andreychuk is averaging a goal a game stars andreychuk goals wendel all over probert probert all over everyone else todd gill also played an excellent game we can t say enough about doug gilmour when he is right all is well gilmour brings to mind davey keon from the previous leaf dynasty predictions so far on track nyi over buffalo and leafs over la kings leafs over nyi in the final i can t let this pass if the islanders get past pitts assuming the isles beat the caps god willing them i m sorry the isles will crush the leafs flame shields up of course no one asked me i always interject my opinions on matters i have no concern over go islanders down to go go jets for cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.hockey	re bernie nicholls what a man from matthew rush but he s starting to push it over the edge imho of course holik s chop to barrasso s neck wasn t too sportsmanlike either it seems that he was following the the only way to beat the penguins is to injure them philosophy it s pretty obvious that holik s hitting barrasso was an accident he was even apologizing for it immediately before the penguins all jumped on him ralph
rec.sport.hockey	re hawks in article netnews upenn edu ldecock mail sas upenn edu luke decock wrote the only player the hawks have lost because they screwed up is peluso the hapless blues lost stevens and gave away oates okay so the blues won this you must be kidding right in losing stevens the blues got shanahan and kept joseph then they traded oates for janney as a hawks fan you have got to respect those hapless names lets see who scored the game winning overtime goal in the th game luke decock ldecock mail sas upenn eu david howarth howarth sbctri sbc com southwestern bell technology resources inc advanced technology laboratory pine rm st louis mo
rec.sport.hockey	fuhr deserves credit was sabres sweep fuhr s role in article revcrinneij shelley u washington edu lzuo byron u washington edu joseph writes in article randolin polisci umn edu randolin polisci umn edu robert andolina writes many people have suggested that fuhr s play is the only reason that the sabres beat the bruins while fuhr was a critical factor i would not overlook the fact that the sabres finally got some scoring from people other than mogilny and lafontaine khmylev sweeney hawerchuck etc indeed lafontaine played hurt and didn t score many goals also the team played better defense although not great than in the regular season fuhr deserves a lot of credit but not all of it robert a i agree with this i also think fuhr s contribution for sabres s win is just the same as many palyers in the team mogilny had six goals in four games including two goals for the great comeback in the final win after fuhr had left the key for sabres s win over boston is whole team s strong commitment as an underdog and all their talent players including mogilny and fuhr i think that grant fuhr deserves more credit than that while it s true that the entire sabres team played very well i still believe that if it wasn t for grant fuhr the series would now be tied he virtually stole games and for the sabres in both of these games fuhr stood on his head to give the sabres the chance to win especially in game fuhr made a series of huge stops in the third period when the score was tied even in game when the sabres won the score seemed to indicate that the sabres dominated however if it hadn t been for fuhr the sabres wouldn t have been up i think it was through the nd period and the bruins wouldn t have had to open up the game thereby allowing mogilny to score the third goal on a breakaway to salt away the game there is no doubt in my mind that fuhr was the critical factor in the victory in my opinion neely oates and juneau played as well as lafontaine mogilny and hawerchuk the sabres did get extraordinary efforts from hannan sweeney wood and khmylev compared to that of the bruins checkers however the bruins defense imo played better than the sabres defense the sabres have ken sutton playing a regular shift afterall the difference in the series was fuhr who outplayed andy moog gary go sabres
rec.sport.hockey	re minnesota shame in article c xpu md constellation ecn uoknor edu hunter nsslsun nssl uoknor edu steve hunter writes i m a hockey fan from way back and maintain an interest as best i can here in the hockey hinterlands oklahoma i m hoping i can get a reading from some of you about the move of the north stars to dallas i ve been under the impression that minnesota was one of or possibly the hockey state in the u s so why is the team moving to a city in texas is it that the owner is a greedy self serving profiteer or were the stars really not making a profit or was the city or whoever owned the arena doing some price gouging opinions please well as a hockey fan i think it s terrible it s one thing to say hey let s give a hockey team to cities that don t have one that s fine it s entirely another to say okay let s take a team from a thriving hockey town and move it of course none of us will ever know the real inside story but from what i know a group of minneapolis businessmen told green repeatedly that they would purchase the remaining season tickets to get to the level that green wanted yet he refused every time it s pretty obvious that he was determined to get out of minneapolis at any cost and use the season tickets thing as an excuse i was fortunate enough to get to the penultimate game and the fans were great people were tailgating and playing roller hockey in the parking lot before the game the attendance was so full as to have sro and the whole atmosphere in the centre was terrific minnesota is hockey usa how the nhl can so blithely let the major league team from there move away is beyond me i only hope they get a new team soon just my ali ali procrastination lemer i gave nhl commissioner gary bettman a puck columbia university nyc once he spent the rest of the day trying to phoenix ctr columbia edu open it pat williams gm orlando magic be kind to animals hug a hockey player
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl letter quite long in article apr sol ctr columbia edu phoenix startide ctr columbia edu ali lemer writes hey everyone didja hear that we re fanatics now cool can we get our own acre compound replete with weapon and ammo caches who wants a barbeque ali i can t believe sh t like this gets any attention in this group during the playoffs ali you re a blabbering moron at least you could ve waited till the end of the playoffs to start your dumb letter campaign ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	ahl playoff results concrete well i got the scores for sat s games ahl playoff scores first round home team in caps games played on sat baltimore binghamton rochester utica springfield providence series stati plural of status adirondack defeated cdi springfield defeated providence binghamton tied w baltimore rochester defeated utica st john s leads moncton cape breton defeated fredericton bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey ny division ii state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	calder cup playoff schedule full calder cup playoff schedule and results home team in caps if necesary first round springfield indians vs providence bruins gm springfield providence gm springfield providence gm providence springfield gm providence springfield gm springfield providence gm springfield providence springfield wins series cd islanders vs adirondack red wings gm adirondack cdi gm adirondack cdi gm adirondack cdi gm adirondack cdi adirondack wins series baltimore skipjacks at binghamton rangers gm baltimore binghamton gm binghamton baltimore gm binghamton baltimore gm baltimore binghamton gm baltimore at binghamton gm binghmaton at baltimore gm baltimore at binghamton utica devils vs rochester americans gm utica rochester ot gm rochester utica gm rochester utica gm rochester utica ot gm rochester utica rochester wins series moncton hawks vs st john s maple leafs gm st john s moncton at halifax gm st john s moncton at halifax gm st john s moncton gm moncton st john s ot gm moncton vs st john s at halifax gm st john s at moncton gm moncton vs st john s at halifax cape breton oilers vs fredericton canadiens gm fredericton cape breton ot gm cape breton fredericton gm cape breton fredericton gm cape breton fredericton ot gm cape breton won bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey ny division ii state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	wc scores and standings april world championships in germany group a standings munich group b standings dortmund gp w t l gf ga p gp w t l gf ga p canada czech republic russia finland sweden usa italy germany switzerland france austria norway april italy russia norway germany sweden austria usa czech republic april canada switzerland russia austria finland france april sweden canada czech republic germany switzerland italy finland usa april germany france italy sweden czech republic norway april switzerland russia usa france austria canada norway finland april switzerland austria germany finland april russia sweden czech republic france canada italy usa norway april sweden switzerland finland czech republic russia canada germany usa april austria italy france norway playoffs april quarterfinals a b a b april quarterfinals a b a b april relegation a b a b april semifinals a b a b a b a b may relegation bronze medal game may final staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se r s h contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	wc results april world championships in germany group a results russia switzerland st rus alexei yashin rus alexei yashin nd rus ilia biakin rd rus andrei khomutov rus ilia biakin rus sergei sorokin penalties rus min min game penalty swi min referee rob hearn usa attendance canada austria st can shayne corson can rod brind amour can paul kariya can gerry galley can eric lindros can rod brind amour nd can eric lindros can eric lindros rd can brian savage can brian benning can geoff sanderson penalties can min aut min attendance usa france st fra antoine richer usa adam burt usa rob gaudreau usa jeff lazaro nd usa adam burt rd usa shjon podein usa rob gaudreau penalties usa min fra min referee darren loraas canada attendance finland norway st nd rd fin juha riihijarvi fin kari harila penalties fin min nor min referee sven erik sold sweden attendance the best goal scorers eric lindros can rod brind amour can dieter hegen ger andrei khomutov rus geoff sanderson can ilia biakin rus adam burt usa viacheslav bykov rus jiri dolezal cze mike gartner can rob gaudreau usa patrik juhlin swe frank pajonkowski fra bernd truntschka ger jarkko varvio fin alexei yashin rus some wc stats fastest goal in a wc game after first face off seconds steve larmer canada in a game vs sweden ended boris michailov ussr most consecutive wc games without a loss ussr ussr canada ussr canada staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se r s h contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	re if oilers go to hamilton in article apr spang camosun bc ca ua freenet victoria bc ca tom moffat writes if the oilers move to hamilton what division will they play in tom moffat victoria b c canada as a guess hamilton would be put into the midwest with either winnipeg or dallas moving to the pacific bill b hart macsch com
rec.sport.hockey	re minnesota shame i ve been under the impression that minnesota was one of or possibly the hockey state in the u s so why is the team moving to a city in texas is it that the owner is a greedy self serving profiteer or were the stars really not making a profit or was the city or whoever owned the arena doing some price gouging norman green claims that he has lost money over the last three years that he has owned the team when he bought the team it seemed kind of obvious that he was going to have to deal with a few years in the red before the team started making a profit again he gave the impression that he was willing to do so he claimed two years ago that the team needed to average only fans per game in order to pull a profit but this season the team averaged fans despite increasd ticket prices i think the team s attendence and play was clearly in an upward trend which leaves me dumbfounded as to how he could ignore that in deciding to move he was even offered the many concessions he rudely demanded such as guaranteed season ticket sales cheap rent at the other two arenas in town etc oh well i guess the bottom line is green wanted immediate huge returns in dallas and wasn t willing to wait another year or so in mn dallas gave green a pretty stellar deal to play there although i feel minnesota s was quite reasonable and he also has some cronies down there as well all this means is that minnesota is without an nhl team for a year or two too bad for the nhl kea
rec.sport.hockey	re winnipeg vs vancouver in article c p q unixhub slac stanford edu grogers ravel slac stanford edu greg rogers writes mkr stud hsn no morten kristiansen writes read this all you canucks fan out there winnipeg are going to kick vancouvers butts so badly they are not going to be able to sit down for weeks and no this is not a joke a prediction before the fourth game in winnipeg winnipeg vancouver selanne steen score a couple of goals each winnipeg to win stanley cup playoffs to all you jets fanatics ha ha ha to normal jets fans it was a pretty good fourth game more physical play than i ve seen in the first three games these moronic posts that have continued throughout the year about how the jets will cremeate the canucks and selanne will smash bure into the boards is so full of it why don t you take a cue fromm daryl and just wait till its over before you make more of a fool of yourself i m not going to predict anything about the canucks they are up and are coming back home but i m not going swing any it around until the series is wrapped up tony bravo tony i too am sick of all the mindless fanatical blind faith jets fans who could prpbably predict the end of the world more accurately than the coutcome of a playoff series now i will admit that i am a mindless fanatica blind faith canucks fan but unlike those from winterpeg i do not need to vent my spleen upon the world as to how great my team is i know i have confidence in them and that s enough granted the jets finished the season hot and the canucks were having trouble but vancouver has built themselves a reputation for being a playoff team just ask any flames fan they may not win every series but they alway fight to the end i ll admit that last year was not great but if they combine the work ethic of the past with the new tallent of the present they will be tough to beat note i did not say they would pummel every team they meet and destroy the greatest player playing today now like any canucks fan i would love to see them take the cup i feel they have a good chance to make it out of the smythe and a shot at detroit i can t see them losing to st louis if pittsburgh makes it to the cup i d have to put my money on them yes even if they re facing the canucks if buffalo montreal or quebec beat pittsburgh i d choose the winner of vancuover and detroit to take the cup oh and one parting note for the jets fans just how many times has winnepeg made it to the finals go canucks greg devorski unfortunately helped to taint an otherwise brilliant display by maclean the canucks tied up the jets so tightly that i thought that they were mailing them btw greg next time don t fall asleep in geography class it s pretty sad when a fellow in norway can spell winnipeg properly and a guy in north america can t one more thing how long has vancouver been in the nhl how many championships do they have oh yeah and i can go to the arena and see not one not two but six championship banners hanging from the rafters stanley cup banners and avco cup banners my nhl guide says that vancouver has won the cup once as many times as the rockin town of kenora has won it daryl turner r s h contact for the winnipeg jets internet umturne ccu umanitoba ca fidonet or please route through tkachuk over to zhamnov up to sel nne he shoots he scores the jets win the cup the jets win the cup essensa for vezina housley for norris sel nne for calder
rec.sport.hockey	caps postseason fortunes okay the caps again are about to break out the golf clubs but before they do does anyone have the history of the washington capitals futility record in the playoffs i remember that terry s first year was the first year that the caps finally made it to the third round but before under brian i noticed that every other year the caps got to the second round and the years in between they didn t make it past the first round is this trend continuning the admiral a hopeless caps fan p s we still remember that ot loss to the islanders aurggghhhhhhhhh admiral steve c liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu world champions baltimore orioles why not series in the yards stanley cup champions washington capitals the bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed this sig has been brought to you by frungy the sport of kings my god man drilling holes through his head is not the answer dr mccoy
rec.sport.hockey	faq for this group could someone please tell me how i can access the faq for this group i m relatively new and would like to read it but although i ve seen it mentioned i ve yet to see it posted is it archived somewhere or does someone post it to the group on a regular basis or is it distributed on demand i d appreciate any help anyone can give me thanks in advance mary p s please respond via email as the articles expire within hours on my mail system and i don t always get a chance to read everything thanks mary blumenstock mblumens itsmail hamilton edu go rangers next year of course
rec.sport.hockey	re leafs vs wings in article hydra gatech edu gtd a prism gatech edu hrivnak writes in article apr mks com chuck mks com chuck lownie writes potvin by the way has played very well he kept toronto in the game last night during those penalties in the first period by making great saves but they did end up getting to him in the second the guy has a gaa of in the playoffs and he s played very well hahahahahaa what a joke did you watch the games
rec.sport.hockey	re leafs vs wings in article bb b lmarsha cms cc wayne edu lmarsha cms cc wayne edu laurie marshall writes in article apr mks com chuck mks com chuck lownie writes in last nights game toronto received five penalties detroit none if which game were you watching didn t you see the third period when the wings had penalties called on them and then a delayed penalty the leafs had a man advantage for about a minute and a man advantage for another minute or two and the leafs still couldn t score and i wonder how the leafs scored a powerplay goal if according to you they never had a powerplay in the detroit paper today it said there were penalties called in last night s game and you re saying detroit had none of those penalties i m guessing you only watched the first period i have to admitt the leafs did get alot of penalties in that period where as the wings didn t get many if any at all haven t looked at the box scores yet but the ref more than made up for it in the third period laurie marshall wayne state university detroit michigan go wings my apologies for the typo i meant the wings had power plays in the first period and the leafs none as well my point isn t that the refs were biased just that they were calling a lot of penalties which works to the benefit of the wings having the ref call a whole bunch of penalties against one team then calling a bunch against the other to make up for it takes a lot away from what could have been a great game
rec.sport.hockey	switzerland at wc what did happen to the swiss team last year they reached the semi final and now after matches no points and even no goals after the against italy it seems they lost any hope and were overrun by the russian team now it seems that they have to work hard not to be relegated to the b level does anybody know if this wc is the qualification tournement for the olympic games in lillehammer or are some teams already qualified for them hopp schwiiz daniel
rec.sport.hockey	re cbc canadian for espn in article apr uwovax uwo ca uwovax uwo ca writes hooray i hear on tsn that the jets have won a game selanne getting a hat trick of course here in god s country read ontario i couldn t see that game nor any other in the van wpg series so far because our beloved cbc figures no one out here cares about this series which has looked pretty competitve so far on monday and wednesday nights cbc could have shown the toronto detroit game done the news then picked up winnipeg vancouver they didn t tonight you guessed it toronto detroit the news not the end of the jets game then calgary la so if it s hockey night in canada why can t this ontarian see one of the two series with two canadian teams is this too much to ask paul badertscher uwovax uwo ca i d like to echo these sentiments this is the worst coverage i can ever remember seeing on cbc as soon as the game ends i can count to and by that time they ve signed off the air no post game interviews no updating of late scores nothin tsn is really putting cbc to shame i only hope the later round coverage improves i mean who really wants to see cbc primetime news instead of hockey my darren darren reiniger reiniger ug cs dal ca arishem ac dal ca centre for marine geology dalhousie university halifax n s canada people who wonder where this generation is going should remind themselves where it came from in the first place
rec.sport.hockey	re stewart homered the wings in article andy bgsu edu m bgsu edu andy bgsu edu ryan writes roger maynard wrote once again the leafs overcame the red wings in what was possibly the most exciting game played yet in this playoff year perhaps it was the most exciting game played yet that you have seen for most of us who watch teams around the league with interest and objectivity it was nowhere near the most exciting game paul stewart called the single worst game i ve seen this year federov s major was obvious and i don t dispute it however chaisson s penalty shouldn t even have been a penalty let alone a major and a game misconduct the minute game misc call is for high sticking only there is no blood penalty just because chaisson barely touched the poor sap and he hit the dasher and bled profusely doesn t mean it is a penalty unfortunately the instant replay is not used on hits at first i immediately thought and a game because the hit looked much more severe from an intent to injure perspective than it was after seeing the replay i d say it deserved minutes for boarding it was careless any way you slice it if stewart had replay i do not think chaisson would have gotten and the game in the second period behind potvin probert had the puck and was going to get out front and was tackled i couldn t believe the no call this no call was bullshit i agree i admire stewart for letting them go but probert looked up saying where the hell is the penalty i ve never seen probert whine either he doesn t need to now if probie decides to put wendel through the boards he s probably gone right i don t remember who on the leafs touched the puck on racine s shot towards the end of the game seconds left but stewart called it out of play last touched by detroit everybody in the garden including the linesmen knew it yzerman protested but stewart just laughed and really homered the wings this was also bullshit but once again no replay it was rouse btw i m really pissed that the linesmen didn t correct the call either it s b s when the officials refuse to admit they made a mistake but when it all comes down to it wings played like shit yes the calls you describe should not have the difference in a detroit loss i picked the leafs to win game on emotion and adrenalin but the wings have no excuses for game they should be the superior team the call that pissed me off the most was anderson getting for putting his stick in somebody s eye that was the most dangerous stick infraction i have seen in a long time and everybody in the damn league knows he s an asshole when it comes to stickwork four lousy minutes bullshit call murray should send the tape in or a wing should hammer the living shit out of him dchhabra stpl ists ca
rec.sport.hockey	canada after preliminary round at world champioships team canada defeated russia to finish the priliminary round unbeaten at scoring for the canadians were kevin dineen of the flyers eric lindros also of the flyers and paul cariya of the maine black bears cariya has put on quite a show at the worlds he is sure to be drafted in the top this summer at the nhl entry draft canada defeated italy and austria before meeting the russians on sunday the canadians now face finland in the quarter finals on tuesday kevin white white cc hollandc pe ca holland college ch town pei canada
rec.sport.hockey	leafs what happened how did the leafs turn it around i couldn t get the leaf games on the weekend in ca did the leaf defense wise up overnight did the leafs get in the slot or was it just fluke goals in a goalie duel did the wings turn off the jets or muscle what gives here i caught game on satellite i figured my leafs were washed this is a major turnaround very few predicted this how how how did it happen wing and leaf perspectives welcomed jake
rec.sport.hockey	re caps moving in berger chaos cs brandeis edu berger chaos cs brandeis edu writes i ve heard rumors recently from reliable sources that abe polin the moron who owns the washington capitals is looking to move the team after this season or next milwaukee was mentioned as the team s potential destination the person who told me this is strongly affiliated with the nhl and has been extremely accurate in the past with news of this sort does anyone know if this is so or has heard anything of the sort with baltimore s ahl team gone that would leave the area with only an echl franchise in baltimore not good thanks david why dc baltimore is one of the top media markets the only thing the nhl seems to care about these days they ve been doing far better than the nba bullets at the gate for the last five years the team has been a perennial contender and fan support has been good to excellent why should pollin move to city that s five times smaller but has as many teams in other pro sports i don t get it david marcu
rec.sport.hockey	finland norway in wc finns had to do their best last night when they played against norway in world champs after two periods the score was still this game was quite much similar to the first game finland played against france the norwegian goalie was very good and a bit lucky too in the third period juha riihij rvi scored from a rebound the time was around mins or so the second goal was scored by kari harila who shot straight from a faceoff behind the nowwegian goalie saku koivu the year old center got his first point of this tournament saku koivu played very well througout the game and he was awarded the best player of the game prize despite the fact that he is quite small in size he handles the puck very well and is a fast skater i think that we will hear from this guy in the future
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl letter quite long in catcherc j f netcom com catcher netcom com paul w francisco writes as she said the letter is addressed to bettman the post which though having pretty much the same content is an entirely different entity was addressed to all when she puts the letter in the mail i doubt it will say to all i figure she wanted to let people here see what was in it since it is a topic that interests a lot of folks here that s an entirely different purpose than sending the letter to bettman and it is a damn good thing that she did post it since she claims to represent people in rec sport hockey unfortunately the largest computer networks in the world phrase is a definition of the internet not a group as a whole that she claims to represent as her sole purpose in mentioning the net as steve gallichio has already pointed out is to lend weight to her points through association with the internet there is no other reason to mention the internet this is misrepresentation and if the internet was a private corporation alison would be leaving herself wide open to all kinds of civil suits for the business of whether or not it is large it is large compared to say the number of folks on r s h who are sending a letter to thank him for changing the names at least to this point and just for my this is not a letter it is a petition claiming to represent a large proportion of rec sport hockey users and by implication a significant number of internet users names can in no way be considered a large proportion of rec sport hockey which while we have no way of counting actual readership is accessible to hundreds of thousands of people persons is no more than a fly s fart in a windstorm own curiosity i thought i d look up the official definition of large in the dictionary it reads large having more than usual power capacity or scope exceeding most other things of like kind in quantity or size gee you looked up large in the dictionary what next two syllable words now i have no idea how many letters bettman may have gotten on the issue or how many people may have signed them people may be up there thereby validating definition i would also wager that the geographical range of signatures is quite large which would give it a large scope let me suggest that the only place you are likely to envy the magnitude of is when you are looking for ways to beef up your iq scores he might be impressed by the size of the list of names why would he be impressed with this unless it were large as i said he might be impressed by the size of the list of names but it would have to be considerably larger but even this definition does not account for the original context from which you lifted this sentence i personally don t know whether or not i agree with the letter i have very mixed emotions about it i like the names as they are and don t think they make it that difficult to learn the game but there might be a shred of validity to the change well then what the hell is your point you don t really know if you have an opinion about the hockey issue but you do know that you don t like me is that it cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.hockey	re pens fans reactions susan dart writes amongst penguins fans there seems to be an inner calm that i ve never experienced before this year with the pens the players and the fans have so much confidence in the team this year we re savoring every game and saving our energy for the stanley cup that s a good way to put it it s a quiet confidence i don t feel like i have to defend this team anymore the devils are a puzzle to me they have long been one of the few teams i always dreaded playing their d isn t quite what it used to be but they still usually play us pretty tough i just can t figure it out at least last night they mounted an attack watching some of the devils players being interviewed i could see in their faces and eyes that they really don t have any confidence they are left speechless when asked what more they can to do to beat the pens they act as though they know it s a hopeless task bernie nichols was interviewed after game on the late news he was shaking his head in disbelief over barrasso saying that tommy is like another defenseman out there and how difficult it is playing against him then he got this far away look on his face his voice started trailing off and he said it just isn t right it just isn t fair and he tried to muster a smile i m really impressed with bowman s coaching tactics he s had an answer for every move that brooks has thrown at the pens as far as coaching goes a pens islanders match up should be pretty good one guy i feel sorry for in all of this so far is chris terreri i m sure tom barrasso knows how he feels for so long tommy would look up and not have a teammate in sight terreri s teammates really left him out in the cold in the first two games mom
rec.sport.hockey	flames final stats and playoff news news for the first time all season the flames are now injury free the only player remaining on the limp is center carey wilson who even when healthy is not a major part of the team trent yawney did not score a goal all season until the last regular season game against san jose he potted his first of the year in that game and has also scored goals in both game and game against los angeles thoughts on game the flames played horribly in dropping the first game of their series with los angeles on sunday afternoon they seemed more interested in throwing big hits than in scoring goals they physically dominated the kings but that was the only area they dominated in the game plan was to rush the net and try and take advantage of a young inexperienced l a defence and the shaky kings goaltending but those plans fell by the wayside while the flames conducted a steady march to the penalty box particularily stupid was theoren fleury taking a five minute major and a game misconduct for slamming warren rychel s face into the dasher while rychel was on his knees goaltender mike vernon played well and could not really be faulted for the loss despite his well publicized poor record in afternoon games he got very little support from his defence in clearing the front of the net and sweeping away rebounds in fact marty mcsorley s goal actually went in off chris dahlquist s skate in front of the net thoughts on game the flames came back strong in the second game evidently aware of the potentially fatal consequences of losing both the first two games on home ice the first period was fairly even with the edge going to the kings but calgary came out strong in the second period and simply dominated the kings scoring five goals to take a lead they never relinquished en route to a win the deciding factors in this game were faceoffs and special teams calgary dominated on faceoffs as they did in game but they were able to make better use of the won faceoffs in this game than they did in the first one calgary also went for on the powerplay while l a only went for and gave up a shorthanded goal to joel otto l a s powerplay goal also came late in the game with the outcome already decided the kings powerplay failed them when they needed it most in the st and nd periods the flames lost rw greg paslawski with a suspected shoulder injury when he was leveled by alexei zhitnik right after scoring calgary s th goal charlie huddy left the game for the kings with a groin injury the game was marred by stupidity in the last minute first craig berube of calgary took a five minute major for fighting plus a game misconduct for instigating when he went after tony granato for no apparent reason granato drew a minor for some strange reason turtling perhaps this was followed seconds later by warren rychel drawing a major minor and game misconduct for hitting frank musil in the face with his stick and then instigating a fight musil got a fighting major for some similarily strange reason hardy and yawney went toe to toe and both got double minors gregson thought that musil turtling amounted to fighting but that yawney and hardy throwing punches at each other was just roughing where s this guy from upcoming games friday april at l a sunday april at l a tuesday april home to l a thursday april at l a if necessary saturday may home to l a if necessary injuries c carey wilson indefinite with recurring knee injuries dec calgary flames final regular season statistics pos name gp g a pts pim rw theoren fleury c robert reichel d gary suter lw gary roberts c joe nieuwendyk rw sergei makarov d al macinnis c joel otto lw paul ranheim rw greg paslawski rw ron stern lw brent ashton lw chris lindberg d roger johansson d trent yawney d frank musil c brian skrudland lw craig berube d michel petit d kevin dahl c carey wilson i d chris dahlquist d alexander godynyuk rw todd harkins lw paul kruse g jeff reese d greg smyth g mike vernon rw thomas forslund c shawn heaphy lw patrick lebeau g andrei trefilov name gp min gaa w l t en so ga sa save mike vernon jeff reese andrei trefilov team totals
rec.sport.hockey	re oiler s rumour team moving press conference next week in apr alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes so what s stopping pocklington from going to a bank and borrowing million dollars to pay off his treasury branch loans i was reading according to the recent tsn report peter puck is not paying any interest on the treasury branch loans that s a lot of green somewhere than pocklington business have gross revenues of about million per year i don t think he would have much problem borrowing from his visa to pay off his mastercard if he wanted to again according to tsn virtually everything that peter puck has already has liens against it of course we can t really be sure of this pocklington is at the point of maximum advantage right now and he is basically right in that northlands which is a creature of the city of edmonton must give him a better deal in the era of escalating salaries northlands and the city benefitted as much as he did during the eighties from the oilers and wealth generated by the oilers success was shared but the finanical viability of small market teams has radically changed in the space of a couple of years and for the oilers to remain viable and competitive they need much more of the revenue stream from concessions parking and building advertising as most every other professional sports franchise in north america has what was once a fair agreement that shared the wealth is now northlands sucking the blood out of the oilers franchise the oiler rationale regarding the renegotiation of player contracts is that a deal is a deal sather has spouted this repeatedly pocklinton has a contract with northlands until a deal is a deal perhaps if he included the income he has received from his sale of assets players such as gretzky and the income he has received in expansion fees with his revenues he wouldn t be losing money he has admitted pulling this money out of the oiler franchise to put into his other businesses the oilers have paid several times over what the coliseum cost to build and bring edmonton prestige and recognition throughout the world that is essentially priceless to nickel and dime the oilers just so northlands can use revenue sucked out of the oilers to subsidize their horse racing operations is insanity i think that pocklington has received ample provincial subsidization i can t really blame him for going after municipal subsidization but he is certainly not entitled to it pocklington has sucked revenue out of the oilers in order to prop up his failing business interests pocklington is not to be trusted i doubt very much that any oiler team will ever again make the playoffs under pocklington s stewardship as soon as a player shows himself to be a competent nhl er and expects to be paid accordingly he is shipped off for younger players and or draft picks cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.hockey	another travesty at the joe louis detroit april most knowledgable observers once again watched in shock as the detroit red wings again beat the best goaltender in the world six times en route to another easy victory over the best team in the nhl for the best goaltender in the world felix potvin six was a bad number as he surrendered six goals and collected six minutes in penalties in reponse to the goon tactics employed by the inferior red wings team alan p s we told you this would happen roger didn t we i love it
rec.sport.hockey	re nords habs in o t we was robbed in article apr vm mcgill ca jbe jbe musicb mcgill ca writes aargh paul stewart is the worst and most biased ref presently in the nhl he called a total of penalties on the habs and one on the nordiques the nords penalty came in o t stewart being an ex nordique himself was looking to call penalties on the habs while letting the nords get away with murder we was robbed if my powerplay was as bad as montreal s i d be thanking stewart for calling as few penalties as possible quebec s powerplay is lethal and it is to their advantage to have a penalty filled game where they can clean up with their superior powerplay montreal really lost that game and game because patrick roy is well on his way to having another one of his trademark awful playoffs the man is truly overrated quebec has scored six goals on roy and four perhaps five were quite stoppable alan
rec.sport.hockey	re wc results april in article r c t access digex net steveg cadkey com steve gallichio writes what is the policy regarding players and the minor league playoffs versus wc i know that the rangers are holding back kovalev zubov and andersson for binghamton but i also know that the whalers wanted michael nylander to play for springfield while nylander wanted to play for sweden the whalers allowed the nhl to decide and the nhl chose the wcs how does this differ from the rangers and oilers did the whalers have to go through the league or could they have forced nylander to play in springfield as long as a player is under contract to an organization he is obligated to play only where that organization tells him to play or gives him permission to play the rangers are certainly within their rights to force zubov and andersson to report to binghampton it certainly does reflect a lack of class on the part of the ranger organization however is having binghampton win the calder cup really more important to them than keeping their players happy alan
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl team captains and while we are on the subject has a captain ever been traded resigned or been striped of his title during the season any other team captain trivia would be appreciated brad mccrimmon was the captain of the flames when he was traded to detroit following the season this was during the off season though there s countless examples of captains being traded i m sure alan
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl letter roger s response in apr sol ctr columbia edu phoenix startide ctr columbia edu ali lemer writes gee what a coincidence he doesn t share my views perhaps that s why his name is not on the list to accompany the letter maybe i should write a disclaimer at the end mr bettman nota bene roger maynard does not agree with this letter i know he d be so worried otherwise you wouldn t have to put my name at the bottom if you simply appended a standard disclaimer that the opinions expressed in your petition in no way claim to represent the views of either rec sport hockey or the internet as a whole you have surely seen these disclaimers appended to the postings of many who work for companies and post on the net the disclaimers clever though some of them may be are there for a reason cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.hockey	re where s roger speaking of roger and ilk whatever happened to good ol gln i had him in my kill file since last year s playoffs and now that i ve moved to a new news reader which doesn t have kill files i find that he s gone i must admit however that unlike gln roger seems to know something about the game as long as the subject doesn t touch on the leafs ray skirsky rskirsky qualcomm com
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl letter roger s response in catcherc q lb netcom com catcher netcom com paul w francisco writes i wouldn t say that the letter clearly implies representation of the views of a group that you belong to it represents a subset that you don t belong to of a larger group which you do if only because this isn t a moderated group and you can bet that i wouldn t be the only one not belonging to the moderated group if it was moderated by an anally retentive little dullard like yourself look there are several ways to state an opposing viewpoint three that come to mind are as follows i hardly need you to presume to lecture me on how to communicate my points of view this posting that you have made is the second on the subject of the nhl letter and you have yet to communicate your opinion on the matter instead you content yourself with flaming me say it directly and obnoxiously result result moronic little busy bodies like yourself take advantage of a perceived opportunity to post rules for others to live by you realize that anything you say can and most certainly will be used against you well if using it against me means you are going to post something of significance then by all means go ahead i insist otherwise why don t you just go back to sleep or do whatever it is that you do when you are all by yourself cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.hockey	re why blues pulverized chicago weeniehawks sesrock andy bgsu edu stuart esrock writes hitting hawks tried to outmuscle blues but could not do it instead blues matched hawks hit for hit and crunched the shit out of them in game scud line shanahan butcher and zombo particularly took turns bashing favorite targets like chelios skating when the hawks tried to outskate blues they could not do that either nelson emerson finally showed up and skated circles around flat footed chicago defense hedican felsner ron wilson and others also proved that with old cement skaters like goulet and keith brown blues could lap chicago in a m relay race i agree with but you are wrong about in fact the only point where the hawks in any way matched the blues was when they quit trying to outmuscle and instead tried to outskate the blues they scored and took the lead too bad it was game and they then took some stupid penalties when the hawks skated they outskated the blues and took control ian neath there are four kinds of people in this world neath psych purdue edu cretins fools morons and lunatics u eco
rec.sport.hockey	re caps postseason fortunes in article rhddoinn l jhunix hcf jhu edu admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu steve c liu writes okay the caps again are about to break out the golf clubs but before they do does anyone have the history of the washington capitals futility record in the playoffs i remember that terry s first year was the first year that the caps finally made it to the third round but before under brian i noticed that every other year the caps got to the second round and the years in between they didn t make it past the first round is this trend continuning this is not a trend the caps were done goneso in five games and it saves us caps fans a lot of pain i mean it would be more painful if the caps were up watching them tumbled when they need one more win to clinch the series how many times have they done that in their history up in a five game series against the isles lost straight up against the isles lost straight up against the pens lost straight in other words when they were about to clinch with games to go they were a pitiful the lone wins being a sweep of philly in the win against the rangers in the patrick finals the only time they managed to get out of the division actually saturday s blown lead wasn t anything new we all know the caps are famous lead blowers in crucial playoff games examples game against the isles led after two lead series gave up goals in the rd period including the game winning goal in the last minute after that goal bobby carpenter botched a penalty shot series tied lost game a few days later game against the rangers led series led by in the rd period blew it lost game in ot and three consecutive games game against pittsurgh led series led by in nd period blew it and the series game against isles series tied led by after blew it game against isles trailed series led by in nd period blew it again when they were leading by in game i said to myself if they blew this lead the series is over they have lost all the momemtum the islanders believe they can come back no matter what the score is i am still waiting for a cap goalie who can carry the team who can completely shut down the opposition when they are hanging on their dear lives in a crucial game the admiral a hopeless caps fan p s we still remember that ot loss to the islanders aurggghhhhhhhhh well some teams such have it and some teams just don t when the caps were frustrated year in year out by the islanders i was thinking wait until potvin bossy trottier smith retire well they retired even though trottier was still able to haunt the caps on a pens uniform yet another generation of islanders were still doing the same thing well i guess it has nothing to do with the players edward lor lor cbnewsk att com
rec.sport.hockey	re winnipeg vs vancouver in article c p q unixhub slac stanford edu grogers ravel slac stanford edu greg rogers wrote i feel they have a good chance to make it out of the smythe and a shot at detroit i can t see them losing to st louis gee they lost to st louis twice this year maybe you should have your eyes checked go canucks greg go blues the rodney dangerfield team they get no respect except in chicago mabee david howarth howarth sbctri sbc com southwestern bell technology resources inc advanced technology laboratory pine rm st louis mo
rec.sport.hockey	re maybe next year hawks in article apr vax cns muskingum edu jbrown vax cns muskingum edu wrote belfour played well but i hardly saw any offense from any hawk what i want to know is where was roenick as far as i can tell he was right next to bassen don t you guys love it when people like me come out of the woodwork david howarth howarth sbctri sbc com southwestern bell technology resources inc advanced technology laboratory pine rm st louis mo
rec.sport.hockey	regular season pool nhl hockey pool by denis papp and chris stoochnoff rules pick players lw c rw ld rd goalies you may pick any players from any team points for players are as follows point per goal point per assist point per pim points for goalies are as follows points per win point per tie point per assist point per pim points per shutout points per goal entries entries can be sent by mail or ascii text file to chris stoochnoff or denis papp on hard wired bbs due date for entries is the first day of regular season play after that no more entries will be accepted unless it is just slightly late if that is the case there will be a small penalty applied to the team internet users can send email to dpapp muskwa ucs ualberta ca prizes prizes have not yet been considered they could range from nothing to free time on hard wired bbs or even something else if you have any suggestions please feel free to put your two cents worth in one idea is to get whoever is willing to to submit an equal amount of money and that will go to be the prize money the prize money will go to the top team who has submitted to the prize pool a list of all people who submit money will be posted as well as those who didnt if it is done this way cost the cost absolutely nothing there is absolutely no fee for this pool note if you have any questions please feel free to send them to denis papp or myself chris stoochnoff the players positions ie brett hull is right wing will be decided by the year book i will be using so if you do not know a certain players position or you are not completely sure what position he plays then ask me and i ll tell you and for a great time call the hard wired bbs at this will be the location where the pool standings will be displayed internet users to contact denis papp just email dpapp muskwa ucs ualberta ca standings will be distributed by email as well
rec.sport.hockey	re leafs what happened hi guys what happened potvin didn t let six goals by wendel and andreychuk woke up home ice and lots of yelling in the gardens gave the leafs the emotional edge refs calls especially last night tended to favour leafs a couple of comments on gilmour just because the guy isn t one of the three stars doesn t mean he was not leading the team someone posted the playoff point total and he s in something like fifth or sixth place plus he walked away with the molson cup given for accumulating points from the three star selection during the regular season on the officiating i ve heard gripes from both ends on this one emotions are very high in this series the rivalry is one of the stronger ones i know of i do have to agree that the officiating last night was pro leaf in general except for whoever missed that slash on gilmour s hand in general i still think detroit has one of the better chances vs pittsburgh though i think the leafs would do better against the blues but not as well if they made it out of the division problem is i like both these teams though i m supporting the leafs on the underdog principle d by the way gilmour tiring out is a lot like bob probert not playing aggressive hockey by the way i m not any sort of expert nor do i claim to be i just like watching a good matchup tee hee hee ooops susan
rec.sport.hockey	re more hart trophy stuff in apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes in article apr mtroyal ab ca caldwell mtroyal ab ca writes the hart trophy goes to the player most valuable to his team not to the best player in the league so your above arguement is really worthless personally i always thought that most valuable to his team was silly why should the best player in the league be penalized because he plays on a team with other good players why should a lesser player be picked solely because he s the best player on a weak team wouldn t the weaker team be helped even more by the best player in the league doesn t the presence of the best player in the league make the other players on the team look better too the hart trophy was orginally awarded in a time where people did not think in terms of who was the best player rather in terms of who was the most valuable to the team and valuable to his team was not and should not be considered synonymous with best we are talking about a time when honour and attitude not measurable skills were the most important assets a player brought to his team his league and his sport this was before the onslaught of professionalism which has clearly denigrated what was formerly the foremost peacetime pursuit of glory the hart trophy is not a prize it is an honour cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.hockey	re blues sweep hawks while i will first congratulate the blues for their victory i think it must be realized that the primary reason the blues were able to win was curtis joseph when a goalkeeper gets hot there is little an opposing team can do joseph should be given the entire city of st louis because otherwise there would probably be a game scheduled as for the game on sunday the blues caught a few breaks without a doubt one was the referee constantly watching the blackhawks looking for reasons to give them penalties second the blues first goal resulted because the puck hit the linesman as the blackhawks attempted to clear no linesman no shot for brett i can redirect anything hull to redirect on another of st louis goals belfour was tripped from behind as he went to make the save by someone who didn t belong in the crease which means it was a st louis player finally the overtime goal was caused because someone kept belfour from getting back to the crease no goalie no way to stop the shot i congratulate st louis for beating the hawks it will be a shame to see bryan murray finally advance to the campbell conference finals because joseph won t be able to stop the powerful red wing attack the world reknown jason boskey mail bosk uiuc edu known throughout the world as the bosk christ you know it ain t easy all rights reserved all lefts enhanced you know how hard it can be the way things are goin here they come spinning out of the turn they re gonna crucify me
rec.sport.hockey	team pool standings standings reflecting completed series in round participant points final roland behunin cal que que dave wessels van pit pit barfly tor bos tor dean s det pit pit oz lak bos lak garry tor bos bos brian bergman det pit det mopar muscle men chi pit pit bh s last place picks chi pit pit milton keynes kings det pit pit sam his dogs det pit pit ye ding det pit pit tampere stars chi pit pit the mighty hedgehogs of myllyp chi bos bos homesick hawaiian van pit pit killer kings chi was chi puggy greybeards det pit pit ottawa bearcats tor pit tor andrew kirk tor pit pit muller n walker det pit pit excalibur det pit pit rednecks from hockey hell det bos bos the rangers of chi pit pit jeff phelps det pit pit arctic circles det pit pit sludge det pit det the logistician det pit det hillside raiders chi bos bos danielle chi que que stanias stars chi bos bos bloodhook det pit pit gilles carmel chi pit pit pasi fr nti lak pit pit evan pritchard van pit pit skriko wolves det pit pit rangers blow cal pit pit sean det pit pit schott shooters chi pit pit gary shiff tor pit pit mike burger det pit det darse det pit pit mike burger my canada includes quebec ontario mmb lamar colostate edu the maritimes the prairies and florida a beginning computing ta stud four months a year over students served royal canadian air farce university of michigan colorado state university
rec.sport.hockey	re wc finland in apr math ucla edu dstein oak math ucla edu david stein writes jarkko ketolainen writes disaster finland was beaten by czech finland will be th of pool b and will most certainly meet canada in the quarter final on wednesday th look at the situation positively the finns can now kick canada out they did last world cup and eventually lost tp sweden in the final peter
rec.sport.hockey	re wings news and playoff thoughts in article apr mtu edu kcsmith mtu edu smith writes i don t think he s shown that he s good enough to carry detroit to the cup the team may be good enough to reach the finals but cheveldae is their achilles heel you must have goaltending in the playoffs and cheveldae looks like an overmatched nd or rd stringer which he probably i guess i don t know of too many nd or rd string goalies that could post over wins in a season chevy has done that the past two seasons playing behind a defense that is not exactly the best in the league his wins this year were not all against toronto and for those who look at vincent rien stats and think he should be starting take a look at the teams he played against teams like san jose ottawa and tb any nhl goalie could post a decent record playing teams like that night in and night out is look for detroit management to remedy the situation in the offseason i really don t see this happening if they didn t think cheveldae could do the job they would of traded for somebody this year after all why wait until next year when there were goalies available this year hey i may be wrong but after watching him kick rebound after rebound into the high slot i don t think he can carry them in the tough games i e those not against toronto better to kick out rebounds than to let goals in if st louis gets past chicago watch for joseph to carry the blues past an otherwise vastly superior red wings club joseph is hot but so are the wings they have scored six goals in both of their games so far with toronto supposively one of the leagues best defenses i guess if they end up playing for the norris title we ll see what happens dr d the devils advocate drinkin women guns don t mix v p nk ubvms cc buffalo edu awkorbut acsu buffalo edu mark arm kcs wings in or hopefully by as far as cheveldae is concerned he is a decent goalie the most logical trade in the offseason to me would be between detroit and ny rangers i m sure if beezer would be traded he would enjoy the opportunity to go back to his roots in detroit he would be a valuable asset to the wings and perhaps the rangers could get a zombo in return beezer got a few good years in him and the opportunity to get a fresh start would energize his play
rec.sport.hockey	hawks lose yawn on april maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard wrote m m look for the leafs led by a healthy doug gilmour and a confidence restored m felix potvin to do the blues in the leafs will have more games with the m wings and that should give joseph a few extra days to pass those horshoes m ha roger the dodger is back on the bandwagon that is jack please tell me if you don t get this message rosereader p entered at rose rosemail rosenet usenet gateway rose media
rec.sport.hockey	montreal versue quebec did anyone see the montreal quebec game yesterday it was tight right down to the last second of the third period in the overtime roy and hextall played like they were gods ok so montreal won they deserved it after getting their first goal in overtime waved off because the puck was hit in with a high stick their second goal in overtime was also replayed but i could not tell if it was the montreal player who kicked it in the puck definitely was not directed in by a stick anyways montreal is back into the series dave vergolini michigan state university vergolin euler lbs msu edu
rec.sport.hockey	re where are all the bruins fans in article rap psuvm psu edu robbie po rap psuvm psu edu writes i m just wondering where all the bruins fans are i mean they woofed it up with about posts during the regular season saying that their fave team was going to kick everyone s in the playoffs and win the stanley cup while i see nothing wrong with a little ranting and raving i m just curious why all the boston faithful have stopped posting i mean i haven t even see just one little boston fan post cept for the bruins fans that aren t cocky well maybe they re all out on the golf course or something but i don t know i d sure like to see where all those bruins fans are at robbie po s streakers we do what comes naturally patrick division semi s pgh penguins you see now wait for the penguins devils stanley possibility don t you see a penguins lead cup champions strong resemblance dg here in the middle of connecticut there are plenty of bruin fans many who have let me know in no uncertain terms that the rangers choked down the stretch i think the bruins are doing the same exact thing the rangers did they re playing too tight who s responsibility is it to check mogilny he has gotten off a number of quality shots on goal of which there are many rebounds which are not being cleared by the b s defense it s too bad the b s might not get the opportunity to play pittsburgh again i would really enjoy seeing ulfie get beat up by neely we all hate ulfie but would love him on are team
rec.sport.hockey	usenet hockey draft winning team regular season i was asked to post the team log of this year s winning team in the regular season draft here tis begin dave wessels reading team dave wessels from database log all team log name team points value bought week sold week trevor linden van pre cliff ronning van pre robert reichel cgy pre pat verbeek hfd pre pat falloon sj pre john maclean nj pre eric lindros phi pre rick tocchet pit pre greg adams van pre mike ricci que pre joe juneau bos pre kevin hatcher wsh pre teemu selanne wpg pre pavel bure van pre dixon ward van pre russ courtnall min darren turcotte nyr christian ruuttu chi petr nedved van petr klima edm tony granato la steve duchesne que alexander mogilny buf ray sheppard det steve larmer chi vincent damphousse mtl tony amonte nyr brendan shanahan stl corey millen la johan garpenlov sj kelly kisio sj pat elynuik wsh benoit hogue nyi pat flatley nyi rod brind amour phi michal pivonka wsh joe mullen pit john cullen tor stephane richer nj jeff norton nyi glenn anderson tor ray bourque bos bernie nicholls nj andrew cassels hfd dmitri kvartalnov bos tomas sandstrom la joe sakic que rob blake la derek king nyi michel goulet chi mike modano min dmitri khristich wsh alexander semak nj nikolai borschevsky tor mike donnelly la jeff brown stl thomas steen wpg kevin dineen phi mario lemieux pit wayne gretzky la you have cash points as of week your team is placed of teams andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hp idacom telecom operation ext during the roman era was considered old
rec.sport.hockey	re blues sweep blackhawks in article rap psuvm psu edu robbie po rap psuvm psu edu says michael virata sy says michael sy mvs cec wustl edu devils consultant and how bout those devils over the penguins hahahahahahah attention all penguins fans if the pens win game show some laughter in that e mail box address listed above thanks attention penguins fans once again apparently of you understand that this was just a joke hence the next to it but one idiot on here doesn t as he got pissed at me and sent me two hate e mails telling me that this is wrong i have no intentions of sending e mail to anyone should the pens win tonight and i really do not expect do not intend to lead any of you to send this poster e mail either it was not a serious request if you didn t know that which you probably did then don t do it thanks robbie po s streakers we do what comes naturally patrick division semi s pgh penguins you see now wait for the devils penguins stanley possibility don t you see a penguins lead cup champions strong resemblance dg
rec.sport.hockey	re caps postseason fortunes in article rhddoinn l jhunix hcf jhu edu admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu steve c liu says okay the caps again are about to break out the golf clubs but before they do does anyone have the history of the washington capitals futility record in the playoffs i remember that terry s first year was the first don t give up so soon a lot of burgh fans didn t give up at last year you gotta believe hard as that may seem with the caps with the power play in the playoffs and penalty killing according to mike lange all the caps have to do is make sure it doesn t go ot as that was boston s and chicago s demise ot can be a curse
rec.sport.hockey	re where are all the bruins fans good point there haven t even been any recent posts about ulf secretly i m convinced that he s responsible for the bs being down to buffalo somehow
rec.sport.hockey	buffalo sabres ok buffalo fans i am a red wings fan but am amazed at how the sabres are beating up on the bruins is there any reason for this is it grant fuhr or mogilny and lafontaine i would like to hear from you since i do not know much about the sabres dave vergolini michigan state university vergolin euler lbs msu edu
rec.sport.hockey	re cbc canadian for espn in article c tef c cs dal ca reiniger ug cs dal ca darren reiniger says i d like to echo these sentiments this is the worst coverage i can ever remember seeing on cbc as soon as the game ends i can count to and by that time they ve signed off the air no post game interviews no updating of late scores nothin tsn is really putting cbc to shame i only hope the later round coverage improves i mean who really wants to see cbc primetime news instead of hockey my darren this was a concession to mansbridge and cbc news they argued that if you re going to play havoc with the schedule you should at least make sure that prime time is aired as soon as possible news got a commitment that the post game show would be scrapped and that the network would go to ptn within one minute or so of the game ending as for the earlier comments about cbc being ontariocentric frankly the no doubleheader decison goes both ways people in the west cant see the leafs and people in central canada can t see the jets game the reason for the decision was cbc s feeling they couldn t sell advertising for six hours of hockey in one night as for who wants to see news over hockey a lot of people cbc always gets plenty of complaints about juggling the news schedule darren reiniger reiniger ug cs dal ca arishem ac dal ca centre for marine geology dalhousie university halifax n s canada people who wonder where this generation is going should remind themselves where it came from in the first place
rec.sport.hockey	real fans there was a discussion about how real fans were ones who respect their teams no matter ow bad they are that s bullshit anyone who would follow the pens or the pirates in parts of the early eighties on a devoted basis are losers it s ok to follow and be concerned about your home team but to give them respect even when it is clear the management and the players suck should not be required of a true fan a true fan would follow the team in troubled times to the extent that they could discuss how to improve the team when i visit pittsburgh i ll refuse to go to a pirates game since i think the management has given pittsburgh a team which could have been much better even if they couldn t sign barry bonds lert s say the pens start doing to their own team what the oilers have done this year and what the whalers have done in recent years i would be hard pressed to show much enthusiasm for the team i ll still follow it and bitch about it but i won t waste my money on mediocre teams p ravin ratnam
rec.sport.hockey	re winnipeg vs vancouver david downie dave downie commerce ubc ca wrote speaking of paddock what s he doing slagging sandlak if sandlak puts his mind to it he can be a physical presence and waking him up might be a real mistake isn t sandbag out with an injury now anyways perhaps paddock meant to say that momesso was the cheap short artist after all that would make more sense wpg in umward ccu umanitoba ca computer science u of manitoba
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl letter if you wanted to send your own letter to the nhl where would you send it brett e ball
rec.sport.hockey	re winnipeg vs vancouver in article g o ccu umanitoba ca umturne ccu umanitoba ca daryl turner writes oh yeah and i can go to the arena and see not one not two but six championship banners hanging from the rafters stanley cup banners and avco cup banners my nhl guide says that vancouver has won the cup once as many times as the rockin town of kenora has won it don t let this confuse anybody the winnipeg jets have never won the stanley cup or even come that close these stanley cup championships go back a long way to about the turn of the century the winnipeg victorias won one or more of these cups the jets didn t win any of them can you think of anything more irrelevant to argue about a playoff series going on today than who won more stanley cups around the turn of the century lets face facts the canucks are leading the series the canucks dominated the jets in their season series the canucks did better in the regular season than winnipeg who is the better team i think that the facts show that vancouver is better than winnipeg gregmeister
rec.sport.hockey	re the amazin isles watch out pitsburgh here come the isles they said we wouldn t make the playoffs and we came in third they said the caps would beat us and they re not going to they say that pitsburgh has a ratio of winning the cup but we ll prove them wrong l e t s g o i s l a n d e r s bring it back home
rec.sport.hockey	re don cherry new pens annoucer lli cs cmu edu lori iannamico writes in an article published in this morning s pittsburgh post gazette kbl the pgh cable sports channel president bill craig has confirmed that he has had preliminary talks with the mouth of the north don cherry craig said he is interested in hiring cherry as color commentator and for post game duties others being considered for the open broadcasting jobs are current pens announcers mike lange and paul steigerwald craig spoke to both yesterday kbl s stan savaran and guy junker espn s mike emrick mn broadcaster doug mccloud and tsn s jim hughson kbl and the penguins have just inked a new deal giving kbl all tv and radio rights to pens games plans are that kbl would like to have an entire night of hockey starting with a pre game show and running to a post game show that would sign off about depending upon length of the game don cherry announcing penguins games yeah and to quote pgh s goofy mayor i m the queen of sheba considering how often and how badly he has slammed the pens on coach s corner on hockey night in canada it would surprise me as well but then people will do anything for money won t they lori contact for the penguins lli cs cmu edu randy
rec.sport.hockey	re wings will win gballent vancouver uvic ca greg ballentine writes in article orasis vis toronto edu bdown vis toronto edu brian down writes stuff deleted for example look at pat quinn of the canucks i am not saying that he is the best gm merely a better one than murray and one i am very familiar with he traded garth butcher a good player and dan quinn not in the nhl anymore to st louis for cliff ronning geoff courtnall sergio mommesso and robert dirk too good to be true right i think this goes along with a comment you made in an earlier post namely quinn taking advantage of a major league bonehead for a gm in st louis this trade was an absolutely stupid trade for st louis and it was not the only stupid trade that this guy made we can give quinn credit for being an opportunist here stuff about other trades deleted plus his team has improved a much greater amount than detroit since he took over with them how do you figure both vancouver and detroit did the same thing last year they both won their division they had close to the same number of points they both went down in the first round of the playoffs before finally escaping in games and they both got knocked out in the second round by teams they should have been able to beat with less talent specifically if i remember correctly third place teams how does this make vancouver more improved further if i m not mistaken the wings had more points than vancouver at the end of this season albeit not many gregmeister randy
rec.sport.hockey	re if oilers go to hamilton in article apr spang camosun bc ca ua freenet victoria bc ca tom moffat says if the oilers move to hamilton what division will they play in and won t they have to change their name to the steelers or something the only significant deposits of oil around hamilton are those caused by the tire fire a few years back then again if the nba can have the utah jazz or the l a lakers think about it what lakes are in l a then i guess the nhl can have the hamilton oilers
rec.sport.hockey	senators sign top draft picks reports in ottawa today say that the senators have come to a verbal agreement with last seasons first pick and nd overall choice alexei yashin on a year deal as well the senators have signed their second round pick chad penney who is currently playing for the sault ste marie greyhounds in the ontario junior league playoffs mike d amico bnr ottawa ontario
rec.sport.hockey	re stewart homered the wings in andy bgsu edu m bgsu edu andy bgsu edu ryan writes paul stewart called the single worst game i ve seen this year federov s major was obvious and i don t dispute it however chaisson s penalty shouldn t even have been a penalty let alone a major and a game misconduct i don t notice refs and linesmen until the playoffs come around and yes i have to agree that stewart called the two worst games i ve seen so far mtl quebec game and last nights toronto detroit game what s the scoop on this guy is he the latest incarnation of kerry fraser just because you are boneheadedly stubborn doesn t make you a good ref making the right call does my votes for best ref van hellemond most improved koharski worst paul stewart oops i don t really want to start a best worst ref thread so don t follow up paul yatrou
rec.sport.hockey	re don cherry new pens annoucer kbl and the penguins have just inked a new deal giving kbl all tv and radio rights to pens games plans are that kbl would like to have an entire night of hockey starting with a pre game show and running to a post game show that would sign off about depending upon length of the game don cherry announcing penguins games yeah and to quote pgh s goofy mayor i m the queen of sheba lori contact for the penguins lli cs cmu edu well i was watching hockey hotline last night and stan said that the station kbl had been recieving calls all day concerning this subject and the verdict was that almost exclusively nobody wanted that load mouth know it all blow hard former bruin whiner ulf hating scum sucking pr ck of missery in pittsburgh on a permanent basis that s not exactly what stan said i did do a bit of interpriting the cmu kiddie
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl letter quite long obnoxious name calling deleted ok who wants rm off of here i say we get his net privleges revoked any seconds go skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite go braves an effect on you mike patton faith no more go hornets go capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd a prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl letter quite long roger shut up thank you go skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite go braves an effect on you mike patton faith no more go hornets go capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd a prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	minnesota shame sh i m a hockey fan from way back and maintain an interest as best i can here in the hockey hinterlands oklahoma i m hoping i can get a reading from some of you about the move of the north stars to dallas sh i ve been under the impression that minnesota was one of or possibly the hockey state in the u s so why is the team moving to a city in texas is it that the owner is a greedy self serving profiteer or were the stars really not making a profit or was the city or whoever owned the arena doing some price gouging sh as much as i d like to see the nhl only a hour drive from me i can t help but feel for the people in minnesota unless they truly didn t support the team sh opinions please i used to work for the stars minnesota supported the team to an extent when i was there we had quite afew sellouts this was the season after the cup run and during the finals norm s main bitch was that there wasn t enough luxury suites and the ones he had were not always full he wanted more boxes and wanted them full he was just asking for too much from people that could go and see other hockey games at high schools for or college for about that would probably be better mark qmpro radioactive cats are very very hot origin origin line not defined in goedit
rec.sport.hockey	springfield indians ahl office here is something crossposted from the ahl mailing list in a discussion between me and chris lerch the subject of springfield s st round upset of the providence bruins came up chris basically raised the possibility that the ahl hierarchy is biased in favor of the indians he noted that the offices for the league are in spring and many ex indians are working for the ahl furthermore he also informed me that back a few years ago in the cup finals between roch and spring that the amerks charged favoritism by the office and that there were little questionable things liket he ahl president and staff attending all games with the springfield brass including sitting in their box for the game in springfield and according to the rochester media openly cheering for springfield certainly this is something that is quite serious if any of this is true i don t know if this is anything more than whining on the part of the amerks they have pulled this sort of crap against the wings before but if true this is somthing that seriously raises questions about president jack butterfield s leadership btw this was posted with the permission of chris bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey ny division ii state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	wash isl ot game this comes indirectly from al morgani who works in the studio for espn hockey the management of espn was reluctant to leave the pitt nj game even though the outcome was certain because of fear of the wash ny game going to overtime when the caps scored with left to tie the game al said he heard many people say f k espn is under contractual obligation to show baseball and could not broadcast the ot of the hockey game next year espn will be introduced so baseball fans can watch baseball and hockey fans can watch hockey get off espn s back and stop posting articles on this subject there have been to many f n complainers about this game that it s making me sick geoff filinuk
rec.sport.hockey	wc pool a italy sweden w d l canada sweden russia italy austria switzerland
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl letter quite long in article apr sol ctr columbia edu phoenix startide ctr columbia edu ali lemer writes ali procrastination lemer i gave nhl commissioner gary bettman a puck columbia university nyc once he spent the rest of the day trying to phoenix ctr columbia edu open it pat williams gm orlando magic be kind to animals hug a hockey player nice sig like the change btw could you post the names of the people who are going to be on the letter i and i m sure others would like to know if we are included if i m not i want to be roger is a fool go skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite go braves an effect on you mike patton faith no more go hornets go capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd a prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	re switzerland at wc in article apr vms huji ac il hechel vms huji ac il writes does anybody know if this wc is the qualification tournement for the olympic games in lillehammer or are some teams already qualified for them hopp schwiiz daniel the top teams of this tournament will play in the olympics next year the last team of this tournament top two of pool b great britain and poland and the winner of pool c latvia will play for the last olympic spot next fall however if next year s hosts norway were to finish th which would be no surprise then it s the th team of pool a that will have to play in the qualification tournament marko tervio
rec.sport.hockey	re caps moving why would pollin want to move the caps because i think he owns the cap centre i know they don t sell out all of their games but they draw a lot more than the bullets if you had the situation that abe had would you move if you were guaranteed that anyone who went to the games would have to park at the stadium because there has been nothing within a half mile until the recent construction in the area can they win a game in ot again rich you ve read the hat now see the movie imus in the morning a blurb you re a blurb seinfeld
rec.sport.hockey	re buffalo boston defense in article bson apr nutrimat gnu ai mit edu bson gnu ai mit edu jan brittenson writes which doesn t mean much since the statistics are mostly based on the game playoff format but yes it looks dark for the b s what a disappointment the fat lady is about to hit the first note okay how about deficits the b s chances for a comeback are now less that s based on game playoff format who do you think gets the start in game three i hope it is going to be blue if the team can rally around him maybe moog can too he got the start but the headlines on all boston local tv sportscats said it all sutter blue it and he did harry sinden s appearance outside of b s dressing room after game was a pathetic site he said something really retarded to cover sutter s behind this game is not about winning or losing harry check the schedule your team is in the playoffs and about to go on a long summer vacation on sunday morning harry and his buttkisser milbury will never admit that they screwed up in a major way when they brought in one of the dumbest people in the business brian sutter sutter s playoff record as the head coach in st louis speaks for itself the blues really have a chance to advance to the second round this year ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	re regular season pool this is what i came up with using the final regular season stats for the which you can find in the april edition of the usa today try it out and see what you come up with adam oates c bruins pts teemu selanne rw jets pts alexander mogilny rw sabres pts pavel bure rw canucks pts vincent damphousse lw canadians pts dave andreychuk lw mapleleafs pts phil housley rd jets pts paul coffey rd redwings pts sergei fedorov c redwings pts andy moog g bruins pts al infrate rd capitials pts patrick roy g canadians pts al macinnis ld flames pts dennis savard c canadians pts calle johansson ld capitals pts yuri khmylev lw sabres pts richard smehlik ld sabres pts total points pts most valuable player adam oates rookie of the year teemu selanne most improved player vincent damphousse defenseman of the year phil housley goalie of the year patrick roy
rec.sport.hockey	re another travesty at the joe louis in article apr mtroyal ab ca caldwell mtroyal ab ca writes detroit april most knowledgable observers once again watched in shock as the detroit red wings again beat the best goaltender in the world six times en route to another easy victory over the best team in the nhl for the best goaltender in the world felix potvin six was a bad number as he surrendered six goals and collected six minutes in penalties in reponse to the goon tactics employed by the inferior red wings team alan p s we told you this would happen roger didn t we i love it where is roger anyway haven t heard from him in awhile he must be out on the golf course waiting for the leafs to join him any day now laurie marshall wayne state university detroit michigan go wings
rec.sport.hockey	re wings news and playoff thoughts roots in detroit he would be a valuable asset to the wings and perhaps the rangers could get a zombo in return wake up and smell the norris rick zombo was traded to the blues for vince riendo sp last season mike
rec.sport.hockey	re wings news and playoff thoughts as far as cheveldae is concerned he is a decent goalie the most logical trade in the offseason to me would be between detroit and ny rangers i m sure if beezer would be traded he would enjoy the opportunity to go back to his roots in detroit he would be a valuable asset to the wings and perhaps the rangers could get a zombo in return beezer got a few good years in him and the opportunity to get a fresh start would energize his play only problem is that zombo was traded to st louis last year for goalie vincent riendeau i think that while chevy is not among the elite class of goalies he is adequate given the offensive firepower of the wings greg
rec.sport.hockey	re hey what about teh cannucks grogers slacvx slac stanford edu greg rogers writes hi all due to living in the bay area i as unable to see vancouver s victory over the jets last night i know the score but that rarely describes the game could someone please post a brief sonapsis sp of waht happened how well did each team play were the cannucks deserving of the victory well in my opinion the canucks played a really strong game i was especially pleased by a very strong game from linden i think he could be a key to success for them this year defensively they really had a strong game hardly heard selanne s name all night craven also played one of his best games since coming over with a few exceptions they really didn t let the high flying jets do much high flying i thought the jets defence looked overmatched by the canucks forwards they will have to improve on that if they want to make this a series in short it was a great start chris roney e mail chris roney sfu ca
rec.sport.hockey	canucks over winnipeg the jets gave the canucks another run for their money in an almost identical game to the first of the series but once again came up short as vancouver outscored winnipeg the pattern of the first game was repeated tonight with the canucks scoring quickly and then going to sleep in the second period only to stave off a jet comeback with opportune goals from their greater talent the jets looked more dangerous in this one but it didn t make a difference in the numbers that counted goals vancouver s big line produced again with centre cliff ronning and left winger geoff courtnall scoring in the first and in the second to boost the canucks to a lead on giveaways by the suspect jet defence of bautin and ulanov mental lapses by the defence and goal scoring talent in opportune areas made the difference in all three canuck goals however as in the first game the jets worked hard to take the game to the canucks in the second period the jets dominated the second checking hard and penetrating the vancouver zone without being challenged by a canuck team that wanted to pack it in early the hard work paid off late in the second when tie domi caught vancouver goalie kirk mclean by surprise with a sharp angle shot to make the score domi s goal gave the jets new life as they began to take the rush to the canuck s collapsing defence the canucks were unwilling to do anything but let mclean take shots and clear the rebounds the jets were allowed to set up and make plays both goalies made standup saves as the play picked up considerably mclean made three great saves in the second off a dancing teammu selanne while essensa was rocked by a pavel bure drive selanne looked dangerous on the rush as the jets pressed a series of attacks into the canuck zone the canucks on the other hand looked like they were offering four checking lines in an effort to preserve their slim lead a series of minor penalties at the end of the second period resulted in a one man advantage for the jets in the early third the jet s tempo numminen drove a puck from the point through mclean s legs and into the net to tie the game at the canuck s discordant play picked up where it left off this was characterized by long lead passes that either never connected or were picked off by the jets and individual rushes into a tight winnipeg defence that were never supported however as in the first and second canuck goals a jet defensive lapse re bonehead play stalled the winnipeg comeback with the faceoff in the winnipeg zone pavel bure was left to stand in the crease with no jet defender anywhere near him bure who had been invisible in the game up to that point took a rebound and managed to roof it with a backhand even though he was off balance by then it was too late for the jets to come back essensa made it to the bench with one minute to go but the extra attacker did nothing for their attack canucks winnipeg next game is friday at winnipeg with the jets in the hole by two games
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl letter quite long in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes in apr sol ctr columbia edu phoenix startide ctr columbia edu ali lemer writes dear mr bettman ali s letter deleted for brevity roger s acid laced response removed maybe we should get together and establish some kind of mandatory maturity level to keep some of this stuff off of the air roger your responses might just exclude you from sharing your opinions then you see the same rights ali has to mail her letter to the nhl are the same ones that let you post replies that mow her down like wheat at harvest time she never said she represented the entire internet or the entire group rec sport hockey she has every right to state her opinion along with those of the fifty or sixty or hundred odd folk who ve agreed to allow her to list their names on the bottom of it you may not agree with it fine i really don t care enough about the name change to care your name isn t attached to it so why moan and complain if you felt her words were leading well you re free to feel that way and take exception but manners never hurt i personally disagree and feel her generalizations were fine i have the right to think and say that too ali s under no compunction to change a single word now while you re free to disagree with every word she wrote to tear apart her character is uncalled for i m posting this as a form of public reprimand if you tear down ali s integrity and character publicly you ll get chastised publicly in return would it have been so hard to say ali please be a bit more specific in your description the way i ve read it indicates you re stating my view also and that s simply not true i d really like to see a disclaimer noting that you don t mean the entire internet or the entire r s h group attached to it despite your intent to list names at the bottom thanks cordially as always c calling her a moron and an asshole just reduces the weight of your words and the opinions of their author in the eyes of myself and possibly others oh and ali nice to see someone standing up for something even if it s not something i personally advocate valerie hammerl john sr would lift pat over the boards grab hammerl acsu buffalo edu his hand and start running around the outside v pwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu faster and faster i wanted to learn how to get that feeling and the only way was to learn how to skate p lafontaine
sci.crypt	re why the clipper algorithm is secret in article apr fsl noaa gov bear kestrel fsl noaa gov bear giles writes in article c pstr lu panix com dfl panix com danny o bedlam writes the algorithm is classified because a military contract or similar government equivalent to military has been let for this proprietary design that the feds say that nsa developed is there a patent is that patent publicly available my betting is that that too is classified unless there has been a major change in the law there s no such beast as a classified patent patents exist to encourage communications and develop the state of the art yes there is the patent can be classified as secret i recently saw a patent from dealing with nuclear weapons technology that was only declassified in the last couple of years there is of course the problem of enforcing the patent the same thing applies in civilian development you can t patent something and declare it a trade secret however you can and should mark all software including proprietary code unpublished copyright so that it ever does get exposed you still have some legal protection this is absolutely right alec chambers
sci.crypt	re freely distributable public key cryptography c code where in moose cs indiana edu marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu writes pgp is not available on the archive site rsa com if it were it would be highly amusing since rsa com actually public key partners but it s the same entity is the organization holding the patents which they claim are violated if you actually make use or sell pgp i believe those patents also apply in canada but i m not a patent lawyer or anything sorry about double posting but i forgot something make use or sell in this context have non standard meanings make means making an encrypted message use may mean using pgp or using an encrypted message sell would probably mean selling an encrypted message it is the message created by a patented process incorporated in pgp which infringes arthur l rubin a rubin dsg dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer
sci.crypt	re key registering bodies in naglec w e hl netcom com nagle netcom com john nagle writes since the law requires that wiretaps be requested by the executive branch and approved by the judicial branch it seems clear that one of the key registering bodies should be under the control of the judicial branch i suggest the supreme court or regionally the courts of appeal more specifically the offices of their clerks now that makes sense but the other half must be in a non government escrow i still like eff but i admin their security has not been tested arthur l rubin a rubin dsg dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer
sci.crypt	greek comint installation was re the secret source of that announcement from article apr cathy ijs si by borut b lavrencic ijs si in article gradyc unp d netcom com grady netcom com ef writes the most popular cipher systems in captured soviet spies was the one time pad even with the necessity of keeping incriminating evidence about is known to be the only proven unbreakable system soviet paranoia right and what do you think the nsa does with its wullenwebers and huge rhombics pointed embassy row and their sites near satellite uplink and downlink sites duh one case of slovenian paranoia once upon a time a tried to walk over the famous marathon field not far away from athens i could not do that mostly becouse the field is now a huge antenna farm probably a greek comint installation would you agree are you sure that the field is in the area you found the antenna farm the tomb ymvos of marathon which herodotus specifies as near the fighting area is in an area open to the public you must be referring to the u s army base of nea makri it was built by the u s in the same manner as bases all over the world w germany spain philippines turkey etc were built i think it was a telecommunications hub over the recent years u s forces have withdrawn from the base and removed all military equipment the area is currently under the control of the greek navy until the all interested parties local goverment central goverment political parties agree on what should be done with the land park recreation area real estate this has nothing to do with cryptography security and the eff i have redirected followups to soc culture greek diomidis diomidis spinellis internet dds doc ic ac uk uucp uknet icdoc dds department of computing imperial college london sw include dev tty
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in visicom com makey visicom com jeff makey writes in article c so hxv demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes i am completely baffled by why dorothy denning has chosen to throw away her academic respectability like this she hasn t dorothy denning has spent many years earning the professional respect of her colleagues and something won in this manner is not easily lost her support of the clipper no matter how unpopular that position may be serves far more to enhance the clipper s respectability than to diminish her own i wouldn t think so asking people to trust a secret algorithm seems unsound to me arthur l rubin a rubin dsg dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer
sci.crypt	re freely distributable public key cryptography c code where in moose cs indiana edu marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu writes pgp is not available on the archive site rsa com if it were it would be highly amusing since rsa com actually public key partners but it s the same entity is the organization holding the patents which they claim are violated if you actually make use or sell pgp i believe those patents also apply in canada but i m not a patent lawyer or anything the patents don t apply in canada i think the free trade agreement may provide for recognition of new patents but not old ones arthur l rubin a rubin dsg dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer
sci.crypt	re key registering bodies since the law requires that wiretaps be requested by the executive branch and approved by the judicial branch it seems clear that one of the key registering bodies should be under the control of the judicial branch i suggest the supreme court or regionally the courts of appeal more specifically the offices of their clerks courts already operate substantial record keeping operations some of these records are confidential so the concept of a court holding information in confidence in accordance with law has longstanding legal precedents the judiciary is more immune to pressure from the executive branch than any executive branch agency or contractor can be so judicial control of keys is appropriate for the other half of the key i suggest a unit of congress the general accounting office the gao is congress s staff unit for keeping tabs on the executive branch and has an excellent reputation it s controlled strictly by congress the executive branch has no authority over it with keys split between the legislative and judicial branches we might have a chance of this system working honestly if of course a way can be found to keep the keys from being siphoned off before they reach the repositories this should not be construed as an endorsement by me of the whole clipper concept but if we have to have it splitting control across all three branches of government might make it work john nagle
sci.crypt	hidden markov modeling in the article at last now you can talk to your computer in the may issue of fortune magazine it was mentioned that phoneme prediction used hidden markov modeling this was the statistical method that markov developed to predict letter sequences in pushkin s novel eugene onegin it was then said that this technique worked so well that the nsa used it to crack codes does anyone have any references for hmm and how the nsa used it or is this just an extension of the letter frequency tables that we are all using anyway joe pjhong clio rad sunysb edu
sci.crypt	re how to detect use of an illegal cipher could someone repost or send to me via email the original posting of the clipper chip press release thanks andrew kriger hampshire college agk neural hampshire edu andrew kriger three may keep a secret hampshire college if two of them are dead agk neural hampshire edu benjamin franklin
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more lawrence c foard lfoard hopper virginia edu wrote in article apr cs aukuni ac nz pgut cs aukuni ac nz peter gutmann writes article deleted just doing a quick reality check here is this for real or did someone invent it to provoke a reaction from people it sounds more like the sort of thing you d have heard suitably rephrased from the leader of a certain german political party in the s it sounds like a joke but then the war on drugs has always been a joke i remember seeing it several months ago and it was marked as a joke funny how things circulate kenneth l beal jr kbeal amber ssd csd harris com use os often does pavlov ring a bell nlp tapes learn keep moving street person my responsibility indigo girls better yourself fnord one man gathers what another man spills dead opinions are mine is your religion batf approved pro con progress
sci.crypt	re sorry folks read this in article apr ucsu colorado edu andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson writes in article apr ucsu colorado edu andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson writes the date i have for this is note clinton s statements about encryption in the rd paragraph i guess this statement doesen t contradict what you said though cut here washington upi the war on drugs is about to get a fresh start president clinton told delegates to the national federation of police commisioners convention in washington in the first speech on the drug issue since his innaugural clinton said that his planned escalation of the drug war would make everything so far seem so half hearted that for all practical i just found out from my source that this article was a joke heh heh it seemed pretty damn convincing to me from the start i just didn t notice the smiley at the end of the article and there were a few other hints which i should of caught well isn t this just a hoot all i read on this group is a bunch of ppl fearing the misuses of information by the big bad evil govt this just happens to be a case of an ordinary joe netter who decided that he would create and or distribute some misinformation ppl buy into bs posts like this i know because i forwarded a copy of the post to my office mate who turned around and was although he won t admit it sorry joe ready to get in a fight about f o r f e i t u r e please if we re going to hold our govt which admittedly has had and still has its problems to high standards then mustn t we follow these too electronic freedoms only go so far anyway i guess this joke did turn out to resemble clinton s true feelings at least to some extent sorry about that marc andersom spot colorado edu hey i m willing to forgive after of course my office mate takes his extra anti paranoia pills doug mckee mckee cs buffalo edu
sci.crypt	re the escrow database in article strnlghtc t k inf netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes after the waco massacre and the big brother wiretap chip any tactic is fair this is pernicious nonsense in what way david our government is totally out of control whether you realize it or not i know you find it painful to think of your old buddy uncle sam as evil but it s true other democracies have fallen before ours is on its way and knee jerk sheep that instinctively trust government are helping it slide power corrupts david why is that so hard to understand
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in article r g n rvb access digex net steve b access digex com steve brinich writes somebody asked me what was wrong about overreacting in cases such as this the reason is very simple how many people do you want to die in a riot in a new civil war not me which is precisely why the government must be cut off at the knees when it pulls stunts like this lest the situation worsen to the point where extreme measures are required fine then cut them off with pen and paper and not the sword jerry han crc doc div of behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc ca these are my opinions and my opinions only a proud and frozen member of the mighty warriors band memories of those i ve left behind still ringing in my ears genesis
sci.crypt	re new encryption psionic wam umd edu whose parenthesized name is either an unfortunate coincidence or casts serious doubt on his bona fides posts a message in which he seems willing to take the word of a private firm about which he knows little that their new encryption algorithm is secure and contains no trapdoors while seemingly distrusting that of the government about clipper i suppose it depends on how paranoid one wishes to be but how does the writer know the firm isn t for example an nsa front for purposes of this message how do we know psionic isn t i don t suggest that but post this to point out that there is a class of speculation that has no more truth value without lots of hard evidence than the contrary one by the way if psionic had said in lower case letters that the firm claims there was no back door i d have no problem with that phrasing david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip in article c uvn mf austin ibm com arussell austin ibm com ag russell writes at the company i worked for previously i received a file that was des encryped and the person that had sent it went on vaction rather than wait two weeks i set up a straight frontal attack with one key at a time it only took two days to crack the file no i don t have any faith in des taking this at face value though it seems quite dissonant with much else that has been published here about brute force des cracking unless russell was lucky with respect to the key i d be very interested in whether the program russell used is available in whether he used a cleartext recognition algorithm in the program or whether he had to examine each decryption by hand in whether he used a known plaintext attack he probably should also tell us given his address what machine he used a desktop workstation or super computer depending on his answer this could be an appalling development calling into question both des and rsa des dunno about rsa idea if any bright programmer with a little idle machine time can crack a single des message in a couple of days assuming no tricks that are message specific then here s my clipper key nsa give me the chip at once david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re freely distributable public key cryptography c code where numerical recipes in c fortran pascal has a nice section on encryption and decryption based on the des algorithm there is also source code provided i think some versions of this book are distributed with the source code on disk the source code can also be ordered from the publisher victor iseli victori xetron com
sci.crypt	re the escrow database in article apr news eng convex com gardner convex com steve gardner writes in article strnlghtc t k inf netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes after the waco massacre and the big brother wiretap chip any tactic is fair this is pernicious nonsense in what way david our government is totally out of control whether you realize it or not i know you find it painful to think of your old buddy uncle sam as evil but it s true other democracies have fallen before ours is on its way and knee jerk sheep that instinctively trust government are helping it slide power corrupts david why is that so hard to understand that wasn t my point my point is that your implied position about the waco massacre is an assertion cum political position according to a cnn poll about of americans think the fbi acted properly and a majority think they should have done it the tear gas a lot sooner a large majority also believe the fbi was not at all responsible for the death of the victims koresh was let s avoid the kind of fruitless argument of the sort if a hadn t x d then b might not have y d what you call the big brother chip is right now a proposal under discussion and it is not yet clear that strong crypto is going to be banned therefore neither justifies any tactic is fair thus the statement is nonsense it is pernicious because any tactic can lead to damaging others as i see you know from the tone of your reply there s nothing personal intended david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip in article strnlghtc wcmo fx netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article c uvn mf austin ibm com arussell austin ibm com ag russell writes at the company i worked for previously i received a file that was des encryped and the person that had sent it went on vaction rather than wait two weeks i set up a straight frontal attack with one key at a time it only took two days to crack the file taking this at face value though it seems quite dissonant with much else that has been published here about brute force des cracking unless russell was lucky with respect to the key i d be very interested in whether the program russell used is available in whether he used a cleartext recognition algorithm in the program or whether he had to examine each decryption by hand in whether he used a known plaintext attack this has to be a dictionary attack no other attack makes sense this means that whoever encrypted the file just typed some password which was a single dictionary word and then russell tried all the words in the dictionary this isn t too implausible especially if he was smart and clipped the first plaintext block off the ciphertext if the first block doesn t decrypt then obviously the others won t either assuming one attempt a second it takes seven hours to try all the words in usr dict words not real tough if you want des to be secure you have to use random keys you can t just type your wife s name and think aha they ll never guess that one daniel f boyd boyd cs buffalo edu welcome to the first church of appliantology the white zone is for loading and unloading only
sci.crypt	re the escrow database david sternlight strnlght netcom com wrote in article apr news eng convex com gardner convex com steve gardner writes cascades elided to preserve our sanity that wasn t my point my point is that your implied position about the waco massacre is an assertion cum political position according to a cnn poll what you call the big brother chip is right now a proposal under discussion and it is not yet clear that strong crypto is going to be banned just to set the record straight steve gardner was not the author of the bit you quoted i was steve just took issue with david s characterization of my words as pernicious nonsense i won t further comment on my own views folks either support em or they don t and the lines in question were neither central to the points i was making in my original post nor to the important debate here in sci crypt and elsewhere tim may who continues to hold the same views but doesn t feel like debating politics timothy c may crypto anarchy encryption digital money tcmay netcom com anonymous networks digital pseudonyms zero knowledge reputations information markets w a s t e aptos ca black markets collapse of governments higher power public key pgp and mailsafe available
sci.crypt	re new encryption in article strnlghtc wc z erw netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes psionic wam umd edu whose parenthesized name is either an unfortunate coincidence or casts serious doubt on his bona fides posts a message in which he seems willing to take the word of a private firm about which he knows little that their new encryption algorithm is secure and contains no trapdoors while seemingly distrusting that of the government about clipper will someone please post the david sternlight faq to alt privacy clipper before someone unfamiliar with him takes him seriously and starts yet another flame fest dan
sci.crypt	re i have seen the lobby and it is us i think that most of us can afford a stamp and an envelope and the cost of printing out a letter if some kind soul out there would write a letter and upload it to the net everyone could capture it print it out and snail mail it out to their local congressional critter btw i m working on one nate o o i hate quotations this message brought you by tell me what you know nate sammons and the number ralph waldo emerson ns longs lance colostate edu o o
sci.crypt	could someone mail me the text from the white house clipper announcement thanks a bunch nate o o i hate quotations this message brought you by tell me what you know nate sammons and the number ralph waldo emerson ns longs lance colostate edu o o
sci.crypt	re new encryption in article apr magic mcc com croley magic mcc com david croley wrote it would seem that the one fact that the government has overlooked in this whole fiasco is the economic standpoint as others have mentioned the most difficulty the clipper chip faces is an economic one let s face it the average consumer doesn t care or know that the clipper is a bad idea if there is a perceived need for cellular encryption then the companies will provide one most likely a standard will emerge but if the clipper is too expensive and a chip is way too much then they will develope their own or buy a cheaper one this is an interesting point as a very coarse rule of thumb you can figure that the final price of a product is to times the cost of goods the exact multiplier depends largely on economies of scale products that sell tens of millions of units year will be at the low end those that sell thousands of units year will be at the high end i suspect cellular phones are in the middle this implies that adding a chip would increase the cost of the phone by approx or about i don t think you ll get a lot of consumer support for this tony usual disclaimer
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful in article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes no because the feds will still be able to decrypt the conversations true they ll blame the wrong guys but nevertheless one cannot say something like the drugs arrive tommorrow on the ship terminus when the feds are listening even if they cannot identify who the speaker is it s not a question just of who is holding the phone it s a question of what circuit to wiretap in the first place if two drug dealers are both using stolen cellular phones the fbi doesn t know which lines to tap unless of course they re tapping all phones maybe all cellular phones if they haven t tapped the connection ie at least one end of the connection then they don t know what key to request disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax
sci.crypt	re freely distributable public key cryptography c code where victor iseli victori xetron com wrote numerical recipes in c fortran pascal has a nice section on encryption and decryption based on the des algorithm there is also source code provided i think some versions of this book are distributed with the source code on disk the source code can also be ordered from the publisher victor iseli victori xetron com yes i benchmarked the des implementation in the recipes in c book it is about orders of magnitude slower than the outerbridge karn gillogly et al implementation it may be instructional but it isn t very fast grady netcom com ef e ad d d c f fc ac f d f e f
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article c vmf mbt murdoch acc virginia edu lfoard hopper virginia edu lawrence c foard writes in article apr cs aukuni ac nz pgut cs aukuni ac nz peter gutmann writes article deleted just doing a quick reality check here is this for real or did someone invent it to provoke a reaction from people it sounds more like the sort of thing you d have heard suitably rephrased from the leader of a certain german political party in the s it sounds like a joke but then the war on drugs has always been a joke i m seeking permission to repost the actual note but someone on another mailing list checked the archives on nexis upi and all major newspapers and found no mention of that article
sci.crypt	re clipper will corrupt cops was wh proposal from police point of view in article apr news clarkson edu tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe writes clipper will make criminals out of cops do we want to do this to our police forces the war on some drugs has already turned alot of police into criminals this is yet another nail in the constitution s coffin smg
sci.crypt	re new encryption from denning guvax acc georgetown edu the clipper chip a technical summary dorothy denning revised april the chips are programmed by mykotronx inc which calls them the myk the silicon is supplied by vlsi technology inc all clipper chips are programmed inside a scif secure compartmented information facility which is essentially a vault the scif contains a laptop computer and equipment to program the chips about chips are programmed during a single session the scif is located at mykotronx acknowledgment and distribution notice this article is based on information provided by nsa nist fbi and mykotronx permission to distribute this document is granted so who is mykotronx inc it would be nice to know that they were not a front company used by an intelligence or other agency of the u s government trusting the fox to guard the chickens and all that seems suspicious when the rest of the sources are foxes while we are at it the chip design s should be examined and verified against silicon to insure no trap doors or hidden protocols exist in silicon regardless of the security level of the encryption algorithm it would be a shame if some three letter agency had the ability to interrogate my chip when all i d know is that someone rang and when i attempted to go off hook the line went dead could be even worse if the chip were intended to connect directly to a modem the design examination should be done to the gate level does anyone have a good idea how to tell if there is a piggyback design on silicon the model would be extra logic sharing pins with the advertised function tip offs would be circuitry that would ignore incoming data if formats or sequence is not right i can think of only two ways an output pin could be used and its possible that might be noticed but could be edited from the netlist i think the silicon itself needs to be investigated imagine a design done in two layer metalization yet finding a third layer under the microscope the government is asking for a lot of blind trust the encryption algorithm operating protocols the agency having physical control of the devices the silicon implementation i d feel like keeping one hand on my wallet
sci.crypt	re i have seen the lobby and it is us in article apr yuma acns colostate edu ns lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons writes i think that most of us can afford a stamp and an envelope and the cost of printing out a letter if some kind soul out there would write a letter and upload it to the net everyone could capture it print it out and snail mail it out to their local congressional critter btw i m working on one send something to rush linbaugh about clinton taking away our right to privacy and how if the govt standard takes off only people with lots of money drug dealers will be able to justify des stuff he will slam clinton for this on the air rob
sci.crypt	estimating wiretap costs benefits would wiretap chip be cost effective by robin hanson draft april summary compared to an average monthly phone bill of sixty dollars wiretaps are only worth two cents a month to police so the proposed wiretap chip must raise phone costs by less than one part in three thousand to be cost effective background until now phones have happened to allow the existence of wiretaps detectors which could pick up conversations on a phone line and over time law enforcement agencies have come to rely on this capability to aid in criminal investigations however powerful new encryption technologies threaten this status quo by making possible truly private communication a small chip in each phone could soon make it literally impossible to overhear a conversation without physical microphones at either end in order to preserve the ability of law enforcement agencies to tap phone conversations the u s government announced on april that it had developed and begun manufacturing a special wiretap chip to be placed in future phones instead of the total privacy chips which have been under private development the same day at t announced it would use these chips in all its secure telephone products each chip would be created under government supervision when it would be given a fixed indentifier and encryption key periodically during each conversation the chip would broadcast its identifier and other info in a special law enforcement block law enforcement officers with a court order could then obtain the key corresponding to the indentifier from special trust agencies and could thereby listen in on any future or previously recorded conversations on that phone to date most concerns voiced about this plan have been about its security the government won t disclose the encryption algorithm and many suspect the government will not limit its access in the way it has claimed the track record of previous governments does not inspire confidence on this point however this paper will neglect these concerns and ask instead whether this new wiretap chip is a cost effective tool for police investigation that is which is a cheaper way for society to investigate crime force phone communications to support wiretaps or give police agencies more money to investigate crimes in other ways or to put it another way would police agencies be willing to pay for each wiretap if they had to pay their share of the full social cost of forcing phones to support wiretaps to start to answer this question we might compare the current benefits wiretaps provide to law enforcement agencies with projected costs of implementing the new wiretap chip plan and since current benefits are easier to estimate we begin there wiretap benefits is the latest year for which wiretap statistics are available in that year wiretap installations were requested and no requests were denied this figure does not include wiretaps obtained with the consent of a party to the conversation arrests resulted from wiretaps started the same year arrests came from wiretaps in previous years and of arrests led to convictions of the wiretaps were for phones vs pagers email etc were regarding drug offenses and were requested by federal authorities each wiretap installation heard an average of calls of them incriminating among people and cost an average of extrapolating from the installations reporting costs mostly for labor thus a total of about million was spent on wiretaps to obtain about arrests at per arrest thus these arrests are at least four times more expensive than the per arrest figure one gets by dividing the billion spent by all police nationally by the total million non traffic arrests thus the million per year spent on phone taps is only one thousanth of the total police expenditures and if we divide this by the million phone access lines in the country we get about cents spent per year per phone line or about two cents a month in general we deter a given class of criminals through a combination of a perceived probability of being caught and convicted and some expected punishment level if convicted so the social value of having wiretaps is no more than the amount that we would have to pay to get the same criminal deterrence through other means if unable to wiretap a particular suspect s phone police might instead use hidden microphones or investigate that suspect in other ways or police might focus on suspects more easily investigated without wiretaps or we might raise the fine or prison time for certain types of crime if we generously assume that these substitutes for wiretaps would be on average twice as expensive as wiretaps then the annual social benefit of phone wiretaps is about equal to the current spending level of two cents a month per phone line wiretap costs let us for the moment optimistically assume that the us government encryption scheme is as secure as whatever private enterprise would have offered instead protecting our conversations from the spying ears of neighbors corporations and governments both foreign and domestic even so the need to support wiretaps would add many additional costs to build and maintain our communication system extra law enforcement blocks would be added to phone transmissions increasing traffic by some unknown percentage a special process must be used to add encryption keys to chips while securely distributing these keys to special agencies which must be funded and monitored the chips themselves are designed by a military contractor whose design is to remain secret and are manufactured through a special process so that the chip becomes nearly impossible to take apart chips are now offered at the relatively high price of a peice in lots of private encryption systems not supporting wiretaps would require none of these extra costs perhaps most important government degree would at least partially replace private marketplace evolution of standards for how voice is to be represented encrypted and exchanged in our future phones it is widely believed that governments are less efficient than private enterprise in procuring products and standards though they may perhaps perform a useful brokering role when we choose between competing private standards how much less efficient is a matter of debate some say they pay twice as much while others might say only more currently a total of billion is spent as operating expenses of u s phone companies which comes out to about per month per access line if we compare this to the wiretap value of two cents per month we see that if wiretaps raise average operating costs by even as much as one part in then wiretaps are not cost effective and this doesn t even include extra costs phone owners pay because their encryption chips are more expensive of course most phones wouldn t have encryption chips for a while but the wiretap benefit per phone is still the same so this argument still applies conclusion given this dramatic difference between the total cost of running the phone system and the value of wiretaps we can justify only the slightest modification of the phone system to accommodate wiretaps when the only modification required was to allow investigators in to attach clips to phone wires wiretap support may have been reasonable but when we consider substantial modification the burden of proof is clearly on those proposing such modification to show that the costs would really be less than the benefits if consensus cannot be obtain on this cost benefit estimate a compromise might be to tax phones which do not support wiretaps at a rate of say five cents per month a tax payable to police agencies nationwide to compensate them for their loss of wiretap abilities the invisible weapon oxford press isbn report on applications for orders authorizing or approving the interception of wire oral or electronic communications administrative office of u s courts washington dc u s statistical abstracts dorothy denning the clipper chip a technical summary distributed to sci crypt newsgroup april robin hanson hanson ptolemy arc nasa gov ms nasa ames research center moffett field ca male terrace fremont ca
sci.crypt	re do we need the clipper for cheap security pdc dcs ed ac uk paul crowley writes quoting pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger in article apr shearson com whats the difference between a v bis modem and a v bis modem how fast do the fastest modems go how far can voice be compressed i ve seen various assertions about this but anyone with the straightforward bits per second figures will be my friend forever how about half a friend the motorola codex preliminary v fast modem which you can by right now does kbps raw over standard phone lines kbps is what is usually claimed for the final v fast but you can t go out and buy that right now the standard isn t done yet again voice can be compressed quite well down to or bps depending on how good you want it to be but that requires a dsp or a special asic to do in real time i think i am i think i am the little engine that philosophized
sci.crypt	re new encryption in article apr zip eecs umich edu dmuntz quip eecs umich edu dan muntz writes in article strnlghtc wc z erw netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes psionic wam umd edu whose parenthesized name is either an unfortunate coincidence or casts serious doubt on his bona fides posts a message in which he seems willing to take the word of a private firm about which he knows little that their new encryption algorithm is secure and contains no trapdoors while seemingly distrusting that of the government about clipper will someone please post the david sternlight faq to alt privacy clipper before someone unfamiliar with him takes him seriously and starts yet another flame fest dan hello i am the david sternlight keeper of the faq unfortuantely i cannot find it at the present time from the original faq question does anyone take david sternlight serious fact no one takes david sternlight serious they review his opinions and in most cases immediately discard them or jerk them over to alt fan david sternlight which actually should be alt flame david sternlight a photograph of david sternlight for the curious o o c david sternlight net police a k a proud dick of the internet david police question why does david continue to relate mis statements regarding encryption and other topics fact david sternlight has a chemical imbalance of the right side of his brain martin hannigan twisted pair consulting mac ibm pc mainframe unix
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article a rubin dsg dse beckman com a rubin dsg dse beckman com arthur rubin writes i wouldn t think so asking people to trust a secret algorithm seems unsound to me maybe so but it s quite common there are millions of macintosh users who have no idea what s in apple s patented roms many have modems connected how do you know all your business secrets aren t being stolen answer because you trust apple because if any such attempt however sophicsticated came out it would destroy apple s credibility forever in the clipper case a representative body of experts is going to be allowed to audit it and we ll have assurances maybe even from the president that other than the escrowed keys there are no back doors while some may not have confidence in that i am not among them it s a lot more assurance than we get for many things we routinely trust in everyday life david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only doug holland claims tom clancy has provided the recipe for nuclear bombs clancy himself says he has omitted certain crucial steps further how do we know clancy knows rather than repeating what he s read or been told in the unclassified domain david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re political point of attack clipper infrastructure in article apr news clarkson edu tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe writes from these figures estimate the number of clipper tap requests the fbi is expecting publish this figure compare it on a per capita basis with the amount of tapping now known or suspected the attorney general publishes the number of court ordered taps each year it isn t enough around a thousand for the average non crook non spy to worry about in fact considering any reasonable guess about the number of big time crooks and spies around it may not be enough even for most crooks and spies to worry about there s no reason to believe that it will go up with clipper since the number of taps now includes many targets too stupid to use encryption based on the playbacks we ve heard in court cases david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re would clipper make a good cover for other encryption method in article strnlghtc t nh is netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article apr eff org kadie eff org carl m kadie writes so don t just think of replacements for clipper also think of front ends this only makes sense if the government prohibits alternative non escrowed encryption schemes otherwise why not just use the front end without clipper because everyone but you expects that making alternative methods of encryption illegal is the next step otherwise the cripple chip is utterly worthless it should be obvious that a the cripple chip is aimed at spying on ordinary citizens or b that other forms of encryption will soon be illegal smg
sci.crypt	re can des code be shipped to canada in article apr fripp ri cadre com rj ri cadre com writes someone in canada asked me to send him some public domain des file encryption code i have is it legal for me to send it i believe it is illegal to send any cryptographic code out of the country without an export license others will correct me if this is inaccurate dunno if you d get one for the particular code you have the only way to find out is to apply for a license note that you need to distinguish between what is legal to send to canada if you have such a license and what is legal to send if you don t david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	wiretapping reality today some of the messages here seem to reflect the view that the government is listening in on everything and one will have to hide one s clipper messages somehow if non escrowed crypto goes away a little perspective might be in order the number of court ordered wire taps is pretty low law enforcement has to present pretty good evidence to get even that limited number of authorizations thus the overwhelming majority of conversations are neither tapped nor recorded by the government and for that to happen they have to a have a pretty good reason with evidence b use this sparingly on highest priority pretty good reasons though the system may be imperfect it is a long way from the horror stories some here seem to believe or anticipate david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re fear uncertainty doubt in article r vo koj access digex net steve b access digex com steve brinich writes i suspect that the decisive element in the political battle will be the fud fear uncertainty doubt factor if the people who would be end users of the cripple chip hear of the whole debate only vaguely the government says it s solid other people in the field say it s swiss cheese the balance of doubt could shift against the feds any attempt to limit other forms of encryption could then be presented as the government covering its own butt by protecting its poor product from superior competition comments since you asked the above is a bit inaccurate more accurate is that the government says its solid other people in the field who might be able to find out haven t yet done their review of the chip design and there s been a lot of wild speculation and guesswork from those with little information that it might be swiss cheese david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re i have seen the lobby and it is us hin article apr yuma acns colostate edu ns lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons writes i think that most of us can afford a stamp and an envelope and the cost of printing out a letter if some kind soul out there would write a letter and upload it to the net everyone could capture it print it out and snail mail it out to their local congressional critter btw i m working on one far more effective than mass mailing of a standard letter this is taken usually to represent one pressure group is a set of individual letters perhaps nathaniel sammons or someone else would like to prepare a set of talking points from which individuals could compose their own letters david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re political point of attack clipper infrastructure strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes the attorney general publishes the number of court ordered taps each year i believe you are mistaken i don t believe the ag publishes the number of state wiretaps carl carl kadie i do not represent any organization this is just me kadie cs uiuc edu
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han writes somebody asked me what was wrong about overreacting in cases such as this that was probably me i meant only that nobody has overreacted yet it seemed to me that jerry was suggesting that people are currently overreacting and i vehemently disagree i see a lot of talk but not much action i see now that i misunderstood jerry s position the reason is very simple how many people do you want to die in a riot in a new civil war everybody is jumping up and down and screaming about it and i m worried that people are going to reach for their hammers and rifles before their pens and paper not this bunch they ll just bitch on the net for a while and then go back to lurking can people work within the system before trying to break it examine your history books and find out how many armed revolutions led to democratic or democratic style governments i think you ll only find one in over five thousand years of written history actually it s not quite that bad but it s close look we collectively have the power to throw the bums out but we don t use it we clearly don t need to go burning things down but we clearly do need to throw at least some of the bums out unfortunately the bums have learned to target only small groups of people at a single time so the masses won t react and throw them out eventually the masses will react unless the bums cease their relentless encroachment on liberty and despoilment of the economy the sooner it happens the less the damages will be i don t want to live in a war zone either i want to see the bums thrown out before they do some real damage lyle transarc grant street the gulf tower pittsburgh
sci.crypt	re political point of attack clipper infrastructure in article c wmu mqj cs uiuc edu kadie cs uiuc edu carl m kadie writes strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes the attorney general publishes the number of court ordered taps each year i believe you are mistaken i don t believe the ag publishes the number of state wiretaps carl carl kadie i do not represent any organization this is just me kadie cs uiuc edu hmmm now if we could have keys kept in escrow with one of the groups keeping a key being the government then the states would need federal permission to run a wiretap interesting possibility neil
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful brad optilink com brad yearwood writes if clipper comes to cellular phones along with legal proscriptions against using other cipher systems on these phones a new and potentially dangerous class of crime is created criminals who very badly want inscrutable tactical communications specifically the terrorists and drug dealers who proponents of key escrow cite as threats will be highly motivated to steal the cipher phone of a legitimate user and to kill this person or hold them hostage so discovery of compromise of the device will be delayed you obviously haven t read the information about the system the chips put out serial number infomation into the cypher stream to allow themselves to be identified the system does not rely on registering people as owning particular phone units i am against the proposal but lets be accurate in our objections perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	re freely distributable public key cryptography c code where in article gradyc wgrz cvc netcom com grady netcom com ef wrote victor iseli victori xetron com wrote numerical recipes in c fortran pascal has a nice section on encryption and decryption based on the des algorithm there is also source code provided i think some versions of this book are distributed with the source code on disk the source code can also be ordered from the publisher victor iseli victori xetron com yes i benchmarked the des implementation in the recipes in c book it is about orders of magnitude slower than the outerbridge karn gillogly et al implementation it may be instructional but it isn t very fast it has also apparently been excised from the second edition lefty lefty apple com c m c d o d
sci.crypt	celp vocoders gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes absolutely i just meant that no secure dedicated crypto device has ever been given approval guerrilla underground devices should be well possible with today s high speed modems not that i can think of many v bis modems that are approved either mind you just the overpriced couriers can someone tell me if hardware compression is or is not needed to run digital speech down k i think it is i ve heard it s not lets say bit samples would raw data at the corresponding sampling rate be usable if not how fancy does the compression need to be it is said that celp vocoders can run on the highest speed s with some room to spare they turn kbit bit samples k samples sec into baud however dsp is hairy and i have yet to see actual proof of this in the form of an implementation i have heard fairly reliable rumors to the effect that a famous internetworking guru has a celp implementation that runs on sparcstation s with some room to spare but i have not succeeded thus far in getting my hands on a copy the guru in question has a reputation for not releasing code without having beaten on it for a very very long time first dsp experts are heavily encouraged to try their own hand at this problem perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	is key escrow enough from denning guvax acc georgetown edu revised april the chips are programmed by mykotronx inc which calls them the myk the silicon is supplied by vlsi technology inc all clipper chips are programmed inside a scif secure compartmented information facility which is essentially a vault the scif contains a laptop computer and equipment to program the chips about chips are programmed during a single session the scif is located at mykotronx acknowledgment and distribution notice this article is based on information provided by nsa nist fbi and mykotronx permission to distribute this document is granted so who is mykotronx inc it would be nice to know that they are not a front company used by an intelligence or other agency of the u s government while we are at it the chip design s should be examined and verified against silicon to insure no trap doors or hidden protocols exist in silicon regardless of the security level of the encryption algorithm there is no proof that the chip won t squeel and role over for someone with the proper knowledge to interrogate it via the communications link the design examination should be done to the gate level also how does one verify that what you are looking at is reflected in tapeout or masks the silicon should be examined as well the design in hand a clean room publicly defined clipper chip can be merged with another design later or changed between completion and mask out there is little proof that what you are told is in the chip is all that is in the chip put the verified masks in escrow and use them for chip production use a third escrow party for programming the chips the government is asking for a lot of blind trust the encryption algorithm operating protocols the agency having physical control of the devices the silicon implementation if the government is so trustworthy why escrow anything
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only amanda intercon com amanda walker writes we do need an alternative to nsa bugged telephones but we re talking inexpensive telephones here including hand sized cellulars that need strong crypto real privacy so start a company and build them this is still mostly a capitalist economy qualcomm had spare cycles in the dsps for their new cdma digital cellular phones they wanted to put strong crypto into them since they had the capacity the government decided to discourage them really none of this stuff is especially hard all you need for a true private phone is an isdn codec a vocoder either a chip or software an encryptor a chip is fine but software is more than fast enough a v or v bis modem module and maybe a microcontroller to run the whole thing its easy to do its cheap and any normal company trying to put one out will likely get a visit from the boys in the dark suits from washington just like qualcomm did i suspect that companies like cylink are tolerated because their products are too expensive however no law yet stops one from building really private phones in spite of the hints the administration has made when discussing the new crime bill and in connection with the clipper skipjack big brother chip someone out there will build a unit to do all this better yet prehaps someone will produce a package that turns any box with a sound card into a secure phone perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	re transparent cyphertext aej d cmuvm bitnet wrote in light of recent events it may soon become a very good idea to include the ability to produce transparent or at least non obvious cyphertext in upcoming revisions this won t help if the nsa fba axis requires all messages to undergo textual analysis and reduction to canonical form to eliminate concealed messages after reading several national computer security center documents i m convinced that they are already using this filter doubleplusgoodnot grady netcom com ef e ad d d c f fc ac f d f e f
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip in article strnlghtc wcmo fx netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article c uvn mf austin ibm com arussell austin ibm com ag russell writes at the company i worked for previously i received a file that was des encryped and the person that had sent it went on vaction rather than wait two weeks i set up a straight frontal attack with one key at a time it only took two days to crack the file no i don t have any faith in des taking this at face value though it seems quite dissonant with much else that has been published here about brute force des cracking unless russell was lucky with respect to the key i d be very interested in whether the program russell used is available in whether he used a cleartext recognition algorithm in the program or whether he had to examine each decryption by hand in whether he used a known plaintext attack given that certain archival methods have certain key cleartext in a file i used a programatic dictionary attack i used the des library provided with the system that i was using what is to keep anyone from being lucky with a key he probably should also tell us given his address what machine he used a desktop workstation or super computer my previous employment has nothing to do with my current address other than the fact that the fastest machine in the office was an ibm risc system model with meg of memory not a super computer depending on his answer this could be an appalling development calling into question both des and rsa des dunno about rsa idea i really think this more of a statement of the limitations placed on the key by the interface ascii char no padding and most programs don t bother to clear off the archival front and backend id s if any bright programmer with a little idle machine time can crack a single des message in a couple of days assuming no tricks that are message specific then here s my clipper key nsa give me the chip at once yes any moderatly bright programmer with a little idle machine time can crack most of todays real world encryption i sure that you or i could select a key and prepare the data inorder that the decryption will become a worst case but that is not the real world and i m sure that is how any agency would start an attack on a message as you pointed out there are some very good recognition algorithms availible i m just not familiar with them a g a g russell dept a s oltp section of pals group vm id sc at ausvm email arussell austin ibm com phone tieline these are my views on anyone else they would look silly free the berkeley
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr rick dgbt doc ca jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han writes in this giant bally ho over this clipper chip i noticed a rather disturbing trend in some of the e mail and posts i ve tossing back and forth me too a tendency on the part of some people to hide their head in the sand the reason is very simple how many people do you want to die in a riot in a new civil war how many people do you want jailed for their convictions for their insistence on real privacy why sit by quietly while the preconditions for a real civil war are put in place by a short sighted government everybody is jumping up and down and screaming about it and i m worried that people are going to reach for their hammers and rifles before their pens and paper the terminal is mightier than the pen can people work within the system before trying to break it examine your history books and find out how many armed revolutions led to democratic or democratic style governments i think you ll only find one in over five thousand years of written history really i guess you mean the u s revolution how about england india mexico france holland that s not very good odds you are misinformed but this whole issue is off the topic somebody once said something like armed violence is meant only to be used in response to an armed attack it is not meant to be used in agression this is the difference between self defence and murder when the cops kick in your door for using pgp tell them that all we re doing here is exercising our so called rapidly narrowing right to free speech i m probably overreacting but what i ve read scared me a lot i don t want my children growing up in a war zone perhaps you should talk to the government about that or are you a disciple of david the cops are our friends sternlight the implied threat of the illegalization of private crypto the not so subtle subtext of the clipper announcement is what worries me i don t want my children growing up in a police state rens disclaimer all opinions herein are mine and mine alone and do not necessarily represent those of any organization with which i may be affiliated o o j laurens troost unix systems at work rens imsi com investment management svcs inc at play rens century com east th street th floor phone new york new york fax o o ims is unlikely to share any of the above opinions
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more it is my intent to cut the government off at the knees with the pen and keyboard true the lawyer and the lawbook only go so far but i agree that it is best to use those resources to the maximum extent before seriously contemplating anything more disruptive
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more maybe so but it s quite common there are millions of macintosh users who have no idea what s in apple s patented roms many have modems connected how do you know all your business secrets aren t being stolen answer because you trust apple because if any such attempt however sophicsticated came out it would destroy apple s credibility forever the reason i could theoretically trust apple though i m a pc person myself is that apple has to worry about their customers deserting them if they screw up badly enough the government doesn t have any such worry it can change the rules by force to get the outcome it wants this is the ultimate reason why private enterprise is usually more efficient than government agencies
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow in article strnlghtc pucl kp netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article apr yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes let me ask you this would you trust richard nixon with your crypto keys i wouldn t i take it you mean president nixon not private citizen nixon sure nothing i m doing would be of the slightest interest to president nixon mr sternlight your naivete and historical ignorance is appalling history lesson detailing deleted mike schmelzer mjs genetics wisc edu finger for pgp people didn t riot the minute they saw that film they waited on justice which never came ice t
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger writes really none of this stuff is especially hard all you need for a true private phone is an isdn codec a vocoder either a chip or software an encryptor a chip is fine but software is more than fast enough a v or v bis modem module and maybe a microcontroller to run the whole thing its easy to do its cheap and any normal company trying to put one out will likely get a visit from the boys in the dark suits from washington just like qualcomm did have the feds shut down the people making sound blaster what about apple and next apple next sun and others make systems that can handle cd quality audio in and out and can perform arbitrary transformation on it in the process of transmitting it across a network or modem perhaps there s a market for a portable vocoder not a crypto device simply an rs voice converter make it capable of recording speech and playing it back simultaneously it has applications for multimedia computing for the handicapped internet talk radio irc etc etc etc it wouldn t be a cryptographic device at all but i suppose someone could have it hooked to a laptop with a v bis modem and some crypto software i d market the thing with an api for text to speech using simple phonemes and the ability to use speech samples and of course i d publish the interface to it so other folks could write any applications they wanted to talk to the thing mjr
sci.crypt	thoughts and questions i just joined this group recently and really do not know much about cryptography but a couple things came to mind while reading through the posts is the clipper chip going to be exported if not how will people communicate with other countries will they have to do that in un crypt mode will other encryption techniques be legal assuming the government cracks down on using others when going overseas but not within the states i ve read about authentication systems that use an electronic security card that looks like a calculator to create an encrypted pin based on the time date the host system has the algorithm built into it as well so that it can authenticate a user is there some form of encryption technology that would create keys that are only valid at a certain instant in time the systems would then allow a window of time around this instant where the key would work i realize that this technique would increase the amount of information needing to be stored because you would need entire algorithms rather than just keys but for smaller scale things it might work could some similar method be used to make the two bit keys that are issued to police fbi etc to tap a phone only usable for one week for instance if further surveilance was needed they would have to go back to the escrow service to get another key this would make it useless for local police to database keys they have used i assume this is not possible because the receiving phone would need to be able to decypher the message but any thoughts on the subject thanks tauren mills tauren mills tauren rigel cs pdx edu
sci.crypt	re ideas on clipper jim gillogly jim mycroft rand org writes in article fpizbg wc qokyw andrew cmu edu you write suppose i knew how the algorithm worked and knew the n for my chip but did not know f then by cryptanalysis i might be able to determine f from if law enforcement field e e k u n f not knowing n would might make this much harder they re betting that you can t do this even if you know n even if you know e in fact which they re trying to keep secret if you can find e by grinding down the chip presumably you can find f as well but we can t do this right now with des even knowing the encryption method without doing almost the whole bit search that is not true with chosen plaintext attacks des keys can be determined without the full search now suppose that i know f either legitimately or not if i know k either because i am involved in the conversation or i know u for a party in the conversation i may now be able to determine u for the other party again they re betting that you can t find u given k i e they claim the encryption is strong trust us i am not willing to take that bet if i know f i can also defeat the law enforcement field since i could make my own with a different k then the one i am using knowing f also allows traffic analysis to be performed so i might not know what you are saying but i could know who you are saying it too i m not sure there ll be a way to shove arbitrary key and data through your chip but if so this part s ok we re assuming e is unknown you can obviously shove arbitrary data through your chip as for the key it is stated that the sesion key exchange is external to the chip so i can pick my keys too now i admit that someone trying to compute u will not have lots of messages to work from but since we have no way of knowing that the key generation method does not deliberately generate weak keys or for that matter that the published method is in fact used perhaps the u s will be chosen from know weak keys for the system they assume that you won t be able to find u no matter how many messages you have if they could break u they wouldn t need the key escrow bing bing bing bing bing that exactly my point since we cant know that they do not have this capability the only safe assumption is that they do i admit that most of my cryptographic complaints are probably unfounded but since we cant know one way or the other im not gonig to take their word for it obviously the compromise of f would be a disaster both to law enforcement for whom this whole thing is designed and for the people who believe that it is giving them security f is but one number and i sure that alot of people more then know what it is and if some panel of experts is going to check it over for flaws then many more will know f forget grinding chips bribery and blackmail work just fine it s not clear that the experts will be told f in fact i d be surprised i d expect something more of the form of the fips pub describing des so that they could look at the algorithm in general rather than with the specific set of keys chosen oh come on thats like saying you could evaluate des without the s box constants jon
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr rick dgbt doc ca jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han writes in this giant bally ho over this clipper chip i noticed a rather disturbing trend in some of the e mail and posts i ve tossing back and forth somebody asked me what was wrong about overreacting in cases such as this the reason is very simple how many people do you want to die in a riot in a new civil war everybody is jumping up and down and screaming about it and i m worried that people are going to reach for their hammers and rifles before their pens and paper well i know one person who is ready to kill me and the victim is this whole topic damnit please stop copying all this crap to comp org acm please russ schnapp email netcom metaflow rschnapp or rschnapp metaflow com or rschnapp bix com metaflow technologies voice x fax la jolla california unless otw specified i m speaking only for myself
sci.crypt	re new encryption in article strnlghtc wc z erw netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes psionic wam umd edu whose parenthesized name is either an unfortunate coincidence or casts serious doubt on his bona fides posts a message in which he seems willing to take the word of a private firm about which he knows little that their new encryption algorithm is secure and contains no trapdoors while seemingly distrusting that of the government about clipper i have a couple reasons why i would be more likely to trust this algorithm the algorithm will be made totally public once it is patented the keys will not be escrowed of course if either of these is not true i will not use this new algorithm since i have never seen this new algorithm i have no idea how secure it is yet i suppose it depends on how paranoid one wishes to be but how does the writer know the firm isn t for example an nsa front for purposes of this message how do we know psionic isn t i don t suggest that but post this to point out that there is a class of speculation that has no more truth value without lots of hard evidence than the contrary one by the way if psionic had said in lower case letters that the firm claims there was no back door i d have no problem with that phrasing i can t make any judgements about the algorithm itself yet but i do notice that the creators of this algorithm are being more open about how the thing works and is willing to make it public showing that after a bit of scrutiny any weaknesses will probably be revealed while we don t know about clipper doug holland doug holland anyone who tries to take away my freedom holland cs colostate edu of speech will have to pry it from my pgp key available by e mail cold dead lips
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip in article c uup wp news claremont edu ebrandt jarthur claremont edu eli brandt writes in article apr ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes remember that they ve promised to let a committee of outside experts see the cryptosystem design i hope there are some silicon jocks on the committee who can follow the algorithm through to hardware while i doubt the nsa would pull any monkey business on this point they have to expect that the chip will be reverse engineered sooner or later it s an obvious opportunity to introduce additional holes the chip isn t the place to pull the monkey business you do it in the key generation either by having a mathematical backdoor or by having the program on the laptop that supposedly generates the keys also save a copy of s and s and leak it out somehow or by having the program that supposedly puts the official keys on the chip actually put a different key there very hard to detect since the escrow agents have to either trust the nsa laptop or give each other the s keys and they still don t know the algorithm or have the chip burner at the factory make copies of the keys or whatever pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	re do we need the clipper for cheap security there are chips which perform the voice compression expansion they can t be expensive because they exist in many phones connected to pbxs or on the pbx line cards as well as in a lot of equipment which compresses voice grade circuits to save the cost of long distance leased t s or satellite circuits i can t remember the generic term for these chips my impression is that this was a big deal years ago but circuits have gotten so cheap that it isn t done much now lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective is worth iq points niels bohr or somebody like that
sci.crypt	re wiretapping reality today strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes some of the messages here seem to reflect the view that the government is listening in on everything and one will have to hide one s clipper messages somehow if non escrowed crypto goes away a little perspective might be in order right people here believe the government is listening in on everything sure if you can t provide an answer change the assumptions to something you can deal with it s not a matter of the government listening on on everything it s a matter of the government listening on anyone they take an interest in say if you do something heinous like attend a computer meeting at a mall the secret service decides to go for a warrantless search and acquires your name it s a matter of any number of possible wiretap abuses that cryptology makes far less likely and this chip can sabotage par for the course though i predicted that you d be jumping in in favor of this the reply was that you d justify anything up to and including death camps as long as the government backed them and had a written policy statement perhaps a little extreme but not much seattle is an indian word meaning degrees and raining
sci.crypt	re do we need the clipper for cheap security in article c uphy gh dcs ed ac uk pdc dcs ed ac uk paul crowley writes how fast do the fastest modems go v fast is targeted for about kbps kbps is and may be here soon too remember to ignore compression figures which make your modem go faster on compressible data because voice gets compressed better than that and encryption makes further compression impossible how far can voice be compressed the stu iii phones on the market from at t motorola and i forget who else give you a choice of and baud the and are celp and i think the is some earlier military vocoder stuff is decent is pretty artificial anything less is speak spell can produce quite adequate sound there s also some kbps celp around dsps have made it possible to do all this in real time for cheap old hand government crypto have trouble adjusting to systems faster than baud because if the voice on the other end sounds good you assume the crypto hasn t been turned on yet pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only in article strnlghtc wjag l netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes doug holland claims tom clancy has provided the recipe for nuclear bombs clancy himself says he has omitted certain crucial steps further how do we know clancy knows rather than repeating what he s read or been told in the unclassified domain tom clancy omitted these key steps to try to prevent groups of people from building a nuclear bomb however he asserts that you can find these key steps in any university library the main point of five minutes to midnight is that it is impossible to prevent the proliferation of nuclear weapons since it has become easy to acquire the knowledge to build one and fissible materials are nearly impossible to control read this article or better yet run to your library yourself and dig up some stuff on constructing a nuclear weapon doug holland doug holland anyone who tries to take away my freedom holland cs colostate edu of speech will have to pry it from my pgp key available by e mail cold dead lips
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only in article r g l fdl sunb ocs mq edu au ifarqhar laurel ocs mq edu au ian farquhar writes in article almaden ibm com ameline vnet ibm com ian ameline writes i also believe that someone will reverse engineer the clipper chip and knowlege of the algorithm will likely be fairly widespread any back doors or weaknesses would further discredit the scheme and help grow the market demand for a secure alternative there are companies one in canada as i recall which specialize in analyzing chips to understand process technology design rules to understand the probable yield of the assembly line making them and therefore the probable current cost and possible future cost curves given design shrinks statistical quality control better yields etc taiwanese japanese and especially korean semiconductor manufacturers have all korea continues reverse engineered foreign chips and produced the chip taiwan and japan have signed intellectual property treaties and now at least extract the gate transitor level design before laying the chip out again the koreans still use mask level copying i believe at least they are under a lot of pressure to pass laws to meet international intellectual property standards all this despite lots of attempts to hide the designs there are lots of techniques to do so in both hardware and software design for a complex chip there will be real intellectual effort extracting the gate design from the transistor design and the algorithm from the gate design but it won t take two smart guys even months working hour weeks koreans work or more lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective is worth iq points niels bohr or somebody like that
sci.crypt	encryption chip availibility hi everybody does anyone know of companies that are currently manufacturing encryption chips for sale to the general public get them while you can some pointers would be greatly appreciated thanks steve
sci.crypt	re ideas on clipper i was annoyed to find that this guy posted my private e mail response to him but since i believe what i said i ll defend it anyway in article gfpo wu wc qoq o andrew cmu edu jb m andrew cmu edu jon c r bennett writes jim gillogly jim mycroft rand org writes in private e mail they re betting that you can t cryptanalyze e to get u given n but we can t do this right now with des even knowing the encryption method without doing almost the whole bit search that is not true with chosen plaintext attacks des keys can be determined without the full search by almost i mean the differential cryptanalysis attack the chosen plaintext attack requires a detailed analysis of about chosen plaintexts drawn from a total of about that need to be run if i understand the situation correctly this is certainly a break under the meaning of the act but does not constitute much less work than the brute force keysearch the rest of his article assumes that we can figure out the skipjack encryption algorithm e by choosing the correct data to send through it and observe the results i wish him joy of it and choose not to try that attack i am not defending the system and in fact am offended by the ideas of escrowed keys or a secret algorithm becoming a de facto industry standard however i also object to opposing it for the wrong reasons since that weakens the case against it i said in my private e mail it s not clear that the experts will be told f in fact i d be surprised i d expect something more of the form of the fips pub describing des so that they could look at the algorithm in general rather than with the specific set of keys chosen oh come on thats like saying you could evaluate des without the s box constants no it s quite different the government would have no percentage in choosing f to be a weak key since it s not to their advantage to have anybody else know it the experts could thus assume that f is no worse than anything else during their analysis totally different situation from unknown s boxes again i m not saying it would be good or satisfactory for the experts to just be given the raw algorithm without the rest of the surrounding details regarding the chip and protocols and so on simply that i doubt that they would be given all the information jim gillogly trewesday thrimidge s r
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption in article rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes for example a conversation between a suspect and a lawyer will no longer be private from big brother eavesdropping now almost years later we have the right words for the problem here phone calls are virtual visits those experienced in virtual reality would know from that title that phone calls need to have all the properties of a walk in the park with your friend security from casual overhearing and easy verification to see if anyone is listening secretively as designed they fail at that trouble is telephones were invented a long time ago and people didn t realize the danger or the concept of virtual reality back then disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax
sci.crypt	re do we need the clipper for cheap security in article c trgt ew news claremont edu ebrandt jarthur claremont edu eli brandt writes remember in the announcement they described this scheme as balancing the two extremes of having no privacy and claiming that citizens had a constitutional right to encryption so much for clinton s support of the right of privacy there s an out for him the announcement talked about strong cryptography i believe specifically nor is the u s saying that every american as a matter of right is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product every vendor claims his product is unbreakable so this was sloppy wording i am not claiming that we private citizens should have access to the nsa s best secret algorithms i don t want any nsa algorithms actually i ll let them break my pitiful amateur algorithms and rsa s all i want is what i have already the ability and right to invent and use my own algorithms share them with my friends and sell them disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax
sci.crypt	write to clinton i ve been reading the sci crypt alt privacy clipper and comp org eff talk discussions about the clipper chip and find as usual that most of us think alike so there s a lot of repitition if each of these messages were sent to clinton as well as to the net or instead of to the net we might actually have some effect mcimail com white house disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography in article r jgbinn i eli cs yale edu jgfoot minerva cis yale edu writes perhaps these encryption only types would defend the digitized porn if it was posted encrypted these issues are not as seperable as you maintain to paraphrase i may not agree with what you re encrypting but i defend your right to encrypt it disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax
sci.crypt	encryption chips does anyone know where i can get a hold of some secure encrypting chips or devices before they are banned completely steve if encryption is outlawed only outlaws will have encryption
sci.crypt	new encryption algorithm ever since craig rowland posted his piece new encryption to sci crypt there has been some discussion of our company secured communications technologies inc and on encryption algorithm nea i spoke to craig at length on and we covered a lot of ground some of the information in the posting requires some clarification and i would like to answer some of the questions raised on sci crypt sct is a small company based in silver spring maryland our two main products at this time are a pc based secure communications program called secom and a general purpose encryption chip which uses the nea algorithm developed for secom secom provides an encrypted secure communication link between two pc s connected over dial up telephone lines it supports simultaneous bi directional file transfer and keyboard to screen chat it has its own proprietary communications protocol which is tightly integrated to the encryption all though it is a packetized link the data stream appears to be continuous because the packet boundaries are hidden when secom was initially developed it was implemented to use des encryption a business decision was made to seek export approval for the product because it was perceived that the overseas market was a large one and provided a good marketing opportunity we soon found out that we would never be granted general export approval for anything using des all though the reason for this was never explicitly stated it seems to have something to do with secret government to government agreements which are still in effect in any event the decision was made to develop a new and different algorithm which would take the place of des this was the reason nea new encryption algorithm was born at this time nea is being held as a trade secret the preliminary work of patenting it has begun and the plan is to make it public once the patent process is complete all though one can make certain legal arguments for keeping it an ongoing secret i think in the case of an encryption algorithm it is necessary to let people shoot at it over an extended period of time to prove its worth in order to get export approval for secom nea it was necessary to go through nsa and to reveal to them the details of the program and algorithm this was done only after we had a finished product to submit let me state unequivocally that there is no back door to the program or the algorithm secured communications technologies is a closely held private company and nsa fbi cia nist whatever has no financial interest in any way whatsoever with the company or any of the people involved from a practical business standpoint we are interested in selling chips and software hopefully in large quantities and a back door to the encryption if found out could destroy our credibility and our business with the encryption algorithm approved for export we set out to talk to a number of potential customers for encryption products and systems we were able to identify several common threads of functionality requirements this led to the design of a chip with the encryption algorithm cast in silicon and certain other capabilities added so that the chip could fulfill the broad range of requirements that we identified we are strongly opposed to the clipper capstone chips in a press release today our president dr stephen bryen stated it seems as if the government has an unlimited source of funds to use to push its new bugged chips on the american public but do we not understand how the national security agency which is not supposed to be involved in domestic spying can fund the development of a commercial chip intended to accommodate u s government domestic spying activities if they had asked me to put a back door in nea i would have told them to g f ed can nsa break nea or for that matter can they break des rsa idea diffy hellman pgp rc rc or whatever i don t know and probably never will
sci.crypt	info on mathematics of encryption wanted i just signed up for this group so i hope i m not missing something in a faq but i m looking for a good introduction to the mathematics of encryption particularly des and public key though others would be interesting also probably a good library could help me out but i thought it might be even easier if i could obtain a nice article entirely electronically besides i have this rather rational phobia of libraries for reasons stemming from this dissertation thing hanging over my head i have a basic knowledge of mathematics number theory is a bit unfamiliar to me but i ve had a few graduate level math courses in some other areas anyway i m not a complete novice to the field so probably something aimed at a basic graduate introductory level would be about right something anyway which is more specific than a really big prime number is generated to code the message if someone knows of a good text available by ftp or gopher or would like to email me one please let me know i ll probably keep reading this group but it would be nice if you would email me at the same time so i don t miss it thanx lulu this message was brought to you by postmodern enterprises quilty philos umass edu the opinions expressed here must be those of my employer surely you don t think that i believe them
sci.crypt	re the secret source of that announcement in article r vjhinn iq dns nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes in article gradyc uamw bng netcom com grady netcom com ef writes if you can get it for a buck nd hand it must be true eh i m pretty sure the nsa is supposed to among many other things provide high quality cryptosystems to a variety of places i don t recall reading anywhere reliable that they re supposed to monitor my phonecalls monitor usenet provide only cryptosystems they can easily crack etc etc this is not to say that they don t they might but you don t know that they do and you have no evidence that they do for almost all values of you it follows therefore that for most values of you your claims about the nsa border on paranoia andrew ok andrew i ll provide some evidence a friend of mine worked for an electronics manufacturer on with a west coast office they routinely sold equipment to the japanese one day the japanese started showing up with discount demands that were amazingly close to the cost to manufacture the products this company routinely sent most of the manufacturing data to the field offices the japanese had simply intercepted it so my friend the computer systems admin came up with a solution he started sending the data out double block encrypted with des two days after this new distribution plan was implemented the president of the company got a visit from a pair of government agents they told him to knock it off the president gave in since his company did a considerable business with the federal government now if the government wasn t monitoring the communications how would they even know that the encryption system was installed further since encryp tion isn t illegal and des certainly isn t what is the basis of the government s cease and desist demand the spooks do whatever they think is necessary with or without the blessings of the law i ll say no thanks to clipper or anything else the government produces for the moment double or triple des is probably adequate and when the line is idle send random garbage just to keep em busy david hayes merlin lerami lerctr org
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr rick dgbt doc ca jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han writes in this giant bally ho over this clipper chip i noticed a rather disturbing trend in some of the e mail and posts i ve tossing back and forth somebody asked me what was wrong about overreacting in cases such as this the reason is very simple how many people do you want to die in a riot in a new civil war everybody is jumping up and down and screaming about it and i m worried that people are going to reach for their hammers and rifles before their pens and paper can people work within the system before trying to break it a circut court judge in illinois once said when dealing with a government that seeks continually new and more creative ways to spy on its citizenry one cannot discourage the move to empower the common citizen with the means to parry this attack on personal privacy unfortunately the comment was with regard to the banning of radar detectors the point remains more and more i see the government slowly washing away privacy even unwittingly do you think i will ever live in a soceity that issues smart cards to citizens at birth do you think i will live in a soceity that insists i register my crypto keys so they can keep track of what i m saying even if there is no evidence of my guilt do you think i will ever live in a soceity that seeks to meddle in the affairs of its citizenry without recourse of any kind i m tired of it there is imho no compromise with an administration that seeks to implement these proposals under the guise of enhancing privacy more than the proposals themselves i read the language of the press releases the obvious deception involved in presenting these pieces to the public and i am sickened i am revolted i am repulsed perhaps even of this country could care less about the clipper chip the wiretap bill the smart card because they are so entrapped in the rhetoric of the clinton administration this saddens and frightens me i am a conserveative believe it or not a law and order conserveative but the move to a centralized authoratarian regime really scares me mostly because i know you cant go far wrong underestimating the intelligence of the american people tell them it s going to keep them safe from drug dealers and terrorists and they will let you put cameras in their home even in the wake of waco you find those who support the increasingly totalatarian moves somebody once said something like armed violence is meant only to be used in response to an armed attack it is not meant to be used in agression this is the difference between self defence and murder to be quite honest the way things are going i d call it self defense let s try to avoid killing things eh there s enough blood shed in the world without adding a couple of riots civil wars etc i m probably overreacting but what i ve read scared me a lot i don t want my children growing up in a war zone and i dont want mine growning up in the eyes of a security camera hours a day jerry han crc doc div of behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc ca these are my opinions and my opinions only a proud and frozen member of the mighty warriors band memories of those i ve left behind still ringing in my ears genesis uni uni acs bu edu public keys by finger and or request public key archives pgp public keys pgp iastate edu sovereignty is the sign of a brutal past fight clinton s wiretap chip df f b de b c c crypto is not a crime ask me how
sci.crypt	re estimating wiretap costs benefits robin hanson hanson kronos arc nasa gov wrote would wiretap chip be cost effective summary compared to an average monthly phone bill of sixty dollars wiretaps are only worth two cents a month to police so the proposed wiretap chip must raise phone costs by less than one part in three thousand to be cost effective robin s calculation is interesting and important even if it s off by an order of magnitude for example even if hardware costs for the clipper chip phones were zero the protocol overhead in transmitting the escrow field would be much higher than the part in thousand it depends on the exact details of the phone call length protocol etc shorter calls get a proportionately greater hit however i suspect most americans will not find this line of reasoning as persuasive as the analogies about escrowing keys to one s house are tim may timothy c may crypto anarchy encryption digital money tcmay netcom com anonymous networks digital pseudonyms zero knowledge reputations information markets w a s t e aptos ca black markets collapse of governments higher power public key pgp and mailsafe available
sci.crypt	re the clipper chip a technical summary in article apr guvax acc georgetown edu denning guvax acc georgetown edu writes the following document summarizes the clipper chip how it is used how programming of the chip is coupled to key generation and the escrow process and how law enforcement decrypts communications interesting tell us what happens if i were to say ok i want to have something else if the law enforcement wants my traffic they can record it then get a search warrant and get the keys from me just like they would the keys to a stout private safe etc lets say i suspect that there is a way to trivially crack this at the fed level with no warrant say for nsa scanning for keywords etc and the government has abused great power in the past so i say mr vendor i want something different independent i am a paranoid sort ya understand will the result be sorry without government permission we cannot sell you anything secure or would it be sorry we know which side our bread is buttered on we cannot sell except to government people law enforcement and special people what in your opinion would be the chances of sure we will sell you this secure system be happy to also please be so kind as to tell us what the plans are for private encryption of say files transferred by modem or ftp or data stored on disk surely you have a feel for what the administration is planning for us people on that with your rather intimate relationship with the fbi nsa etc you must certainly have an idea you are surely not going to say the people are not to know until it is too late this is supposed to be government of the people by the people isn t it that is the people are the government s bosses the bosses want to know what the is going on here you see i am kind of nervous because in the last month or so i have seen a non stop stream of ideas coming out of wash dc that at least appear very strongly to have a common trait to limit privacy freedom from govt eavesdropping and the ability to defend ourselves against violent attack no is not good enough for common folk they arrive only in time to clean up the mess i would be dead if i had to depend on you see with all that talk about national smart id cards limiting of encryption to government approved denial of means to effective personal defense eight bills in congress right now it looks an awfully lot like the whole thing is to be able to trace every activity of an individual from cradle to grave all it would take is requiring that national id card to be used in all transactions and with no effective data protection and with the people suitably disarmed there would not be a helluva lot they could do about it now would there all in the name of the war on the constitu er drugs and of course that catch word terrorists what is wrong with good old fashioned police work to build a case they don t want to have to be burdened to leave the office it seems please read the bill of rights first ten amendments to the us constitution and tell us how you can reconcile this big brother ish policy of the administration always for a crisis of some kind isn t it with that bill of rights in the context of the people who wrote it reassure us please or is that no longer regarded as necessary seeing as apparantly the people have no input on this agenda the administration preferring to make all the decisions in secret then springing it on us doesn t sound much like by the people to me i cannot help notice that the congress people involved were not mentioned on the press release i find that more than a little bit curious don t you i sure would like to know who to not vote for come election time yes i am upset i feel you are a part of this because i recall it was you that was posting heavily in favor of a very similar idea could have been the same thing it was so close a few months ago i also recall it was not well received apparantly powers that be really didn t care or were not told or both from what i see clipper will only be useful for conversations i don t want the neighborhood kid listening in on any serious security i don t think i would want to trust it a bit might as well use cleartext certainly corporations would be rather dumb to depend on this for serious trade secret data especially if millions depended on that security given enough money one could buy any keys they wanted buy a crooked judge and a crooked cop given a few hundred thou they wouldn t be hard to find so we end up with only criminals terrorists and the government with real security and the ability to eavesdrop you know the first two if they are serious ain t going to use this thing for their communications i bet the government won t either except perhaps to order a pizza tell us will that be prima face evidence of criminal activity someone not using the government approved methods that just a desire to have privacy is no longer regarded as a legitimate right of an unconnected citizen will that be grounds for a fly through the door raid and confiscation of all one s equipment as terrorist tools using civil forfeiture so there will be no inconvenient need to prove any wrongdoing on the part of the citizen i have yet another question are we going to see articles in all the public magazines consisting of soothing text telling us how great this is how nice the government is by letting us have this illusion of privacy that the government is going to be so kind as to let us sort of exercise a right what you want to bet that i am correct here please answer these questions as citizens of the united states we hava a right to know what our government plans to let us have out of the goodness of their hearts funny thing though with all these proposals i don t feel one bit safer from drug dealers terrorists or a common street thug i am beginning to wonder if the greater danger lies in the above entities or our own government gone out of control re assure us please so far i haven t seen much to reassure me and a lot to greatly disturb me pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	re fear uncertainty doubt more accurate is that the government says its solid other people in the field who might be able to find out haven t yet done their review of the chip design and there s been a lot of wild speculation and guesswork from those with little information that it might be swiss cheese oh that puts the debate on excellent terms for our side feds you people saying that clipper is insecure don t have any real information to support that judgment me fine show me this information that would prove me wrong feds that s secret when it comes down to that it looks suspiciously like some government official pasting top secret stamps over embarrasing information in order to save his own hide in fact framing the secrecy issue in that perspective is more likely to turn joe sixpack s suspicions against the feds than the constitutional argument a point i urge the others on the pro freedom side to consider when making their case
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful the clipper chip s user key is formed by r e d e n s s s r e d e n s s s r e d e n s s s why is the triple encrytion used is it just to gain an effective increase in keyspace to defeat a potential keysearch if so why use bit keys not knowing anything about the skipjack algorithm it s not really possible to guess whether this makes it harder or easier to guess s s why are n n and n formed as they are it would be facinating to see the skipjack algorithm to look for ways of attacking it that require three ciphertext blocks formed in that odd way where do the bit constant values that are concatenated with the serial number to form n n n come from are they changed from chip to chip or session to session even if they re published in the ny times if skipjack is resistant to known plaintext attacks when using triple encryption then there s no break in security but why allow that kind of weird format if those three bit values are truly random bits then maybe it s used to ensure that a known plaintext attack on skipjack if it exists can t be easily used to derive s and s for a whole production run of these chips does dorothy denning read this group if not is someone on the group forwarding questions like these to her or martin hellman or anyone else who s seen more details about the chip john kelsey
sci.crypt	re is key escrow enough the points raised about checking what is actually in the chip as opposed to what is allegedly programmed therein raise yet another trust issue even if we assume that these trusted agents are really entering a wide range of s and s seeds rather than using the same one all the time to reduce the key search space to bits i assume they are not doing so by picking up an iron filing and poking it into the circuitry at carefully selected points to encode data they would presumably be punching numbers into a computer which for all they know could program the chips in a manner completely independent of the s and s values they are feeding into the system
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only in article apr lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger writes qualcomm had spare cycles in the dsps for their new cdma digital cellular phones they wanted to put strong crypto into them since they had the capacity the government decided to discourage them you re blowing smoke qualcomm wants to sell to nice lucrative overseas markets like japan and the ec the government told them don t do encryption if you ever hope to export this technology the reason that cdma doesn t have encryption is not because the g men came a knocking at qualcomm s door it s because qualcomm doesn t think that the us market for digital cellular is big enough for them this is just the international traffic in arms regulations all over again if you don t believe me call qualcomm and ask them don t just throw out conspicracy theories at least don t do it on sci crypt there are whole other newsgroups devoted to this kind of uninformed claptrap any normal company trying to put one out will likely get a visit from the boys in the dark suits from washington just like qualcomm did i suspect that companies like cylink are tolerated because their products are too expensive hah they re not that much more expensive besides if a drug dealer can afford a rolex and a mercedes he can darn well afford cylink phones no cylink sells their phones because they re willing to make different stuff for domestic use vs export qualcomm isn t so cylink makes money that s capitalism comrade someone out there will build a unit to do all this better yet prehaps someone will produce a package that turns any box with a sound card into a secure phone someone this and someone that if you think it s so easy why are you whining on the net instead of getting your butt in gear and writing it your name would become known and loved by dozens but no that would require actual effort servalan
sci.crypt	crypto papers on the net i ve recently been reading a paper of merkle s publixhed only on the net i think discussing three potential replacements for des was anyting ever done with these are khufu khafre and or snefru still being discussed anywhere i know snefru is referenced in the rsa faq and i think it may also be in the sci crypt faq on a related topic can anyone point me toward good sites to find papers articles discussions of cryptology i think i ve about exhausted the math sci library here which doesn t seem to have anything more recent than about thanks john kelsey
sci.crypt	pgp ideas for ibm systems i ve been thinking about how difficult it would be to make pgp available in some form on ebcdic machines the message authentication would be ugly but i think at least the idea encryption could work if pgp had a switch to tell it to use idea in ofb mode or ecb mode in ofb mode errors in translating ebcdic ascii ebcdic would only affect their byte not the bytes that would be affected under cbc is pgp set up to use different idea modes i don t recall notincing it in the executable but i haven t gone through it as carefully as i probably should john kelsey
sci.crypt	why are we being censored in a free america this node specificaly i have been scanning and trying to read the articles in the sci crypt area but what do i get surprisingly the blurb comes upon the screen file xxx has either been cancelled or expired now i ask you if it expired wouldn t it be out of the available file cache i am and not a paranoid but the older i get the greater my cynicism of both federal and state governments becomes the censorship of this internet and it is no less than censorship stupid me it s the govt is ridiculous the japanese have far outstripped our ciphertechnology and our government is now before your very observant eyes trying to force the crypto standard onto a framefork where the standard is now an ancient relic in terms of modern japanese security techniques now i pose the question why censor folks on the net and send the warning shown above cancelled or expired when it would be wiser to not let people see the post at all which article of the constitution gives me the right of revolution if things seem to be going cockeyed hmmm peter g white president synthesis inc milwaukee wisconsin u s a peter white mixcom com
sci.crypt	re new encryption algorithm in article artmel well sf ca us artmel well sf ca us arthur melnick writes in order to get export approval for secom nea it was necessary to go through nsa and to reveal to them the details of the program and algorithm this was done only after we had a finished product to submit with the encryption algorithm approved for export we set please don t be insulted but based on this i would say that your encryption algorithm is very likely not worth the paper it s printed on if the nsa gave export approval that means they felt confident that they could crack it that s their job mandated by law and i m sure they believe in what they do if they gave export approval to an encryption algorithm which they weren t confident of being able to crack they would be derelict in their sworn duty to monitor foreign communications for us national security related material just because many most of us think that the government and the spooks are pugnacious slimeballs is no reason to lose sight of the fact that they do their jobs to the best of their ability and further that said ability is rather high i hope that one day we can make them all obsolete but until then we have to cope with their existence export approvals are one thing they do that we can learn a lot from for example robert bickford rab well sf ca us don t blame me i voted libertarian
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate in article strnlghtc wcmo fx netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article c uvn mf austin ibm com arussell austin ibm com ag russell writes at the company i worked for previously i received a file that was des encryped and the person that had sent it went on vaction rather than wait two weeks i set up a straight frontal attack with one key at a time it only took two days to crack the file no i don t have any faith in des taking this at face value though it seems quite dissonant with much else that has been published here about brute force des cracking unless russell was lucky with respect to the key i d be very interested in whether the program russell used is available in whether he used a cleartext recognition algorithm in the program or whether he had to examine each decryption by hand in whether he used a known plaintext attack he probably should also tell us given his address what machine he used a desktop workstation or super computer depending on his answer this could be an appalling development calling into question both des and rsa des dunno about rsa idea if any bright programmer with a little idle machine time can crack a single des message in a couple of days assuming no tricks that are message specific then here s my clipper key nsa give me the chip at once david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted a person i know belonging to a research lab of a rivate company claimed to me during a priavte conversation that given the equipment in his lab he could crack a kerberos ticket in minutes to an hour he had access to rather powerful des hardware but not of an extraordinare kind i believe the attack was possible because of the amount of known plaintext in the ticket which itself constitutes a small message this was two years ago des is no longer usable for encryption of really sensitive data for a lot of purposes however it is still very adequate jon olnes norwegian computing centre oslo norway e mail jon olnes nr no or jon ifi uio no
sci.crypt	re i have seen the lobby and it is us ns lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons writes i second the motion all in favor in favor if y all have any newsletters or are taking down addresses for any in the future feel free to put me on such a list
sci.crypt	re the secret source of that announcement in article merlin lerami lerctr org david hayes writes in article amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes if you can get it for a buck nd hand it must be true eh i m pretty sure the nsa is supposed to among many other things provide high quality cryptosystems to a variety of places i don t recall reading anywhere reliable that they re supposed to monitor my phonecalls monitor usenet provide only cryptosystems they can easily crack etc etc this is not to say that they don t they might but you don t know that they do and you have no evidence that they do for almost all values of you it follows therefore that for most values of you your claims about the nsa border on paranoia andrew ok andrew i ll provide some evidence a friend of mine worked for an electronics manufacturer on with a west coast office they routinely sold story deleted let me give you another story that actually happened to me we sell communications boards that use a they used to be high tech our agent in the uk sold a system to a company in ch which packaged it in a product for cz london bern prague i telexed the brits and told them the swiss need to pass export paperwork through the us as at the time you needed an export lisence for these systems now i knew the nsa was watching this traffic just like they are watching this traffic and what do you know two weeks later an agent of the us government shows up in my office to remind me if we or our agents sold systems into the evil empire we had better make sure the export lisences were handled properly he was part of a five man office in columbus ohio who did this stuff based on sources he could not reveal i assume most of the time these guys sat around the office with their thumbs up their ass as there isn t that much stuff coming out of columbus wow the electric utility in prague sure is a big worry for these folks the point is we have created a giant bureaucracy nsa with a budget bigger than the cia s who like all bureaucracies fill their time looking for things to do the evil empire is gone the nsa is not they will do something to fill their time and justify their budgets i just wish they too would sit around with their thumbs up their ass but that is too much to hope for they will spy on us and do things like skipjack and subvert people like dorothy denning sigh information farming at for addr phone finger a a the ohio state university jebright magnus acs ohio state edu jim ebright e mail jre osu edu support privacy support encryption
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography in article apr csus edu sphughes sfsuvax sfsu edu shaun p hughes writes in article r jgbinn i eli cs yale edu jgfoot minerva cis yale edu writes perhaps these encryption only types would defend the digitized porn if it was posted encrypted these issues are not as seperable as you maintain now why would anyone post anything encrypted encryption is only of use between persons who know how to decrypt the data you mean something like uuencode it isn t super crypto but it is encrypted scott scott moir satyr on irc there s really only one requirement smoir world std com for a prophet and you ve got it b f t w g k s m r p what s that also pentangl ursa major spdcc com a mouth god to j r bob dobbs
sci.crypt	re can des code be shipped to canada in article apr fripp ri cadre com rj ri cadre com writes someone in canada asked me to send him some public domain des file encryption code i have is it legal for me to send it i believe it s legal to send des code or equipment from the us to canada with no export license i think this is the only place you can do this all other countries require a license as an aside i ve always thought it should be legal to send des software anywhere if you follow these rules encrypt your des software with des send the encrypted software to the recipient send the key to the recipient the only way the person on the other end can use your des software is if he she already has des available otherwise they can t decrypt your program and it is useless if you ve guaranteed they already have des have you really violated any law by sending it to them in the form of your program i m sure it s still illegal but it seems like a good idea todd
sci.crypt	does rush read his e mail rsilvers nynexst com robert silvers writes send something to rush linbaugh about clinton taking away our right to privacy and how if the govt standard takes off only people with lots of money drug dealers will be able to justify des stuff he will slam clinton for this on the air rob i seem to recall rush saying that he has a compuserve account if anyone wants to e mail him all we need is his account number i e and then we could e mail him via gateway by using a dot instead of a comma like so compuserve com this is not his address so does anyone know his e mail address he says he uses it all the time i wonder if he reads alt fan rush limbaugh his ego is big enough rick miller rick ee uwm edu ricxjo discus mil wi us ricxjo muelisto send a postcard get one back enposxtigu bildkarton kaj vi ricevos alion rick miller woods muskego wis usa
sci.crypt	re key registering bodies in article a rubin dsg dse beckman com a rubin dsg dse beckman com arthur rubin writes in naglec w e hl netcom com nagle netcom com john nagle writes since the law requires that wiretaps be requested by the executive branch and approved by the judicial branch it seems clear that one of the key registering bodies should be under the control of the judicial branch i suggest the supreme court or regionally the courts of appeal more specifically the offices of their clerks now that makes sense but the other half must be in a non government escrow good idea but why put all the eggs in one basket given that the escrow keys are generated at a time on floppy disks why not keep them there rather than creating one huge database that will have to be guarded better than fort knox give each floppy to a different bank for safekeeping the usa has over banks and thrifts there are not likely to be more than clipper phones sold ross
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in strnlghtc who fk netcom com david sternlight writes in the clipper case a representative body of experts is going to be allowed to audit it and we ll have assurances maybe even from the president that other than the escrowed keys there are no back doors while some may not have confidence in that i am not among them wow assurances from the president why those are almost as good as campaign promises i don t see why anyone wouldn t have confidence in those
sci.crypt	re new encryption psionic wam umd edu haywood j blowme writes additonally i spoke with mr melnick about their algorithm he couldn t tell me much about their new agorithm because it hasn t been patented yet right now the company is afraid that the new clipper chip will put them out of business this is a very real possibility so they really need help in stopping the clipper chip from becoming a standard if they re planning on patenting an algorithm then i hope they go out of business as quickly as possible and you can tell them i said that i m sure many other readers of these newsgroups will agree too mathew
sci.crypt	re revised technical summary of clipper chip in article apr guvax acc georgetown edu denning guvax acc georgetown edu writes the chips are programmed by mykotronx inc which calls them the myk the silicon is supplied by vlsi technology inc they are implemented in micron technology and will initially sell for about each in quantities of or more the price should drop as the technology is shrunk to micron hmmmmmm seems a bit expensive how big is the chip what kind of packages will be used volt or volt technology how much current will it draw i think there are many practical questions that haven t been answered especially since this chip already exists all clipper chips are programmed inside a scif secure compartmented information facility which is essentially a vault the scif contains a laptop computer and equipment to program the chips about chips are programmed during a single session the scif is located at mykotronx at the beginning of a session a trusted agent from each of the two key escrow agencies enters the vault agent enters a secret random bit value s into the laptop and agent enters a secret random bit value s these random values serve as seeds to generate unit keys for a sequence of serial numbers thus the unit keys are a function of secret random bits where each agent knows only ok i ve got a big problem with all of this how in the world do you expect to sell these chips for even after all the overhead involved in this programming procedure people a laptop only chips at a time give me a break and how long does all of this take even if it is a minute per chip it will take the greater part of a day to turn out of these things how long do you suppose it will take to program those chips mentioned above this is highly impractical to see how the chip is used imagine that it is embedded in the at t telephone security device as it will be suppose i call someone and we both have such a device after pushing a button to start a secure conversation my security device will negotiate an bit session key k with the device at the other end so where can i find info on this at t device what kind of vocoder does it use does it require isdn phone lines if not is it full duplex how does it sound what kind of synchronization scheme is used will all other little black boxes have to conform to at ts choices of protocol etc will anybody else be allowed to build boxes that conform to these specifications doug bank private systems division dougb ecs comm mot com motorola communications sector dougb nwu edu schaumburg illinois dougb casbah acns nwu edu
sci.crypt	re the secret source of that announcement in c x xs ef lerami lerctr org merlin lerami lerctr org david hayes writes ok andrew i ll provide some evidence a friend of mine worked for an electronics manufacturer on with a west coast office they routinely sold equipment to the japanese one day the japanese started showing up with discount demands that were amazingly close to the cost to manufacture the products this company routinely sent most of the manufacturing data to the field offices the japanese had simply intercepted it so my friend the computer systems admin came up with a solution he started sending the data out double block encrypted with des two days after this new distribution plan was implemented the president of the company got a visit from a pair of government agents they told him to knock it off the president gave in since his company did a considerable business with the federal government now if the government wasn t monitoring the communications how would they even know that the encryption system was installed further since encryp tion isn t illegal and des certainly isn t what is the basis of the government s cease and desist demand something similar has happened to me ages ago when we were working on pgp we used to send short messages about development issues or simply to test new features around now at this time pgp and certainly the newer version was unknown over here suddenly the admin at the site i was using received a request that i stop sending encrypted email now there is almost no way that some automatic scanner could have found this since they wouldn t have known about pgp they must have checked for unknown data types in the message tried to unscramble it found they couldn t get past the pem armour part and then contacted the sysadmin and asked me to stop luckily the current email carriers are less picky about what goes over their networks in case people think email scanning doesn t take place i can assure you that it is done regularly by many sites usually not by government agencies or at least not that i know of but by local administrators who for reasons of their own have decided to monitor all communications i m sure you can all think of a whole mess of reasons stop hackers terrorists child pornographers drug dealers evil commies whatever there have been several occasions when i ve got people into trouble simply by including the traditional nsa bait in a message i don t try it any more now a friend of mine was once picked up for mentioning the name of the uk town of scunthorpe hint look for words embedded in it i m sure there are many more examples of this happening in fact if anyone has any examples i d appreciate hearing from them i could use them as ammunition during talks on privacy issues peter pgut cs aukuni ac nz p gutmann cs aukuni ac nz gutmann p kosmos wcc govt nz peterg kcbbs gen nz peter nacjack gen nz peter phlarnschlorpht nacjack gen nz in order of preference one of em s bound to work don t vote you ll only encourage them
sci.crypt	re new encryption martin world std com martin j hannigan writes hello i am the david sternlight keeper of the faq unfortuantely i cannot find it at the present time cool it will you let people form their own opinions even mr sternlight might be right sometime and you guys are setting things up so that the only way he can regain any credibility is to renounce his previous statements and move towards the mainstream of net opinion this does not bespeak tolerance imo c david sternlight net police indeed lyle transarc grant street the gulf tower pittsburgh
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in article rens apr stimpys imsi com rens imsi com rens troost writes in this giant bally ho over this clipper chip i noticed a rather disturbing trend in some of the e mail and posts i ve tossing back and forth me too a tendency on the part of some people to hide their head in the sand i never advocated hiding in the sand i m advocating a peaceful solution while a peaceful solution is possible unless you want blood on your hands how many people do you want jailed for their convictions for their insistence on real privacy why sit by quietly while the preconditions for a real civil war are put in place by a short sighted government read the above everybody is jumping up and down and screaming about it and i m worried that people are going to reach for their hammers and rifles before their pens and paper the terminal is mightier than the pen i type corrected really i guess you mean the u s revolution how about england india mexico france holland english revolution what revolution they never had one india if they could get around their religion restrictions mexico point taken i forgot about this one france napoleon bonepart would have something to say about this holland i didn t know they had one won t comment because i don t know enough that s not very good odds you are misinformed but this whole issue is off the topic actually i consider the issue on topic when you start gambling with fire crackers sooner or later somebody is going to lose a hand when the cops kick in your door for using pgp tell them that all we re doing here is exercising our so called rapidly narrowing right to free speech fine exercise the right to free speech that s great but don t resort to armed violence until there s no other possibility perhaps you should talk to the government about that or are you a disciple of david the cops are our friends sternlight no i believe there are bad cops and good cops there are bad people and good people and all that grey inbetween i have had the pleasure of knowing a police officer who did his best to uphold the laws he swore to defend i have also seen what happens when police power is abused don t generalize in either direction it just causes problems the implied threat of the illegalization of private crypto the not so subtle subtext of the clipper announcement is what worries me i don t want my children growing up in a police state me either nice can of worms ain t it jerry han crc doc div of behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc ca these are my opinions and my opinions only a proud and frozen member of the mighty warriors band memories of those i ve left behind still ringing in my ears genesis
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in article bu edu uni acs bu edu shaen bernhardt writes the point remains more and more i see the government slowly washing away privacy even unwittingly do you think i will ever live in a soceity that issues smart cards to citizens at birth do you think i will live in a soceity that insists i register my crypto keys so they can keep track of what i m saying even if there is no evidence of my guilt do you think i will ever live in a soceity that seeks to meddle in the affairs of its citizenry without recourse of any kind i m tired of it there is imho no compromise with an administration that seeks to implement these proposals under the guise of enhancing privacy more than the proposals themselves i read the language of the press releases the obvious deception involved in presenting these pieces to the public and i am sickened i am revolted i am repulsed perhaps even of this country could care less about the clipper chip the wiretap bill the smart card because they are so entrapped in the rhetoric of the clinton administration this saddens and frightens me i am a conserveative believe it or not a law and order conserveative but the move to a centralized authoratarian regime really scares me mostly because i know you cant go far wrong underestimating the intelligence of the american people tell them it s going to keep them safe from drug dealers and terrorists and they will let you put cameras in their home even in the wake of waco you find those who support the increasingly totalatarian moves to be quite honest the way things are going i d call it self defense and i dont want mine growning up in the eyes of a security camera hours a day i never advocated not saying what you believe in i m advocating second thought and calm a smart warrior defeats the enemy in ambush on the battlefield a smarter warrior defeats the enemy in open warfare on the battlefield the smartest warrior defeats the enemy without using the battlefield think about it uni acs bu edu public keys by finger and or request public key archives pgp public keys pgp iastate edu sovereignty is the sign of a brutal past fight clinton s wiretap chip df f b de b c c crypto is not a crime ask me how jerry han crc doc div of behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc ca these are my opinions and my opinions only a proud and frozen member of the mighty warriors band memories of those i ve left behind still ringing in my ears genesis
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip jon lnes jon ifi uio no writes a person i know belonging to a research lab of a rivate company claimed to me during a priavte conversation that given the equipment in his lab he could crack a kerberos ticket in minutes to an hour he had access to rather powerful des hardware but not of an extraordinare kind i believe the attack was possible because of the amount of known plaintext in the ticket which itself constitutes a small message this was two years ago that would be a v ticket presumably not a v ticket the v ticket format can even be complicated several more orders of magnitude lyle transarc grant street the gulf tower pittsburgh
sci.crypt	re new encryption in article sfpzmnz bwwbmdwhuc transarc com lyle seaman transarc com writes martin world std com martin j hannigan writes hello i am the david sternlight keeper of the faq unfortuantely i cannot find it at the present time cool it will you let people form their own opinions even mr sternlight might be right sometime and you guys are setting things up so that the only way he can regain any credibility is to renounce his previous statements and move towards the mainstream of net opinion this does not bespeak tolerance imo c david sternlight net police indeed lyle transarc grant street the gulf tower pittsburgh hopefully he doesnt take it personal martin hannigan twisted pair consulting mac ibm pc mainframe unix
sci.crypt	strong encryption i just posted this reply to comp risks answering risks digest summary re mark seecof key escrow from mark seecof marks wimsey latimes com subject key escrow clipper chip risks advances in digital computing have made it possible for ordinary people to use powerful machine cipher techniques it is tempting albeit chauvinistic to believe that we have a new situation here thanks to our pet computers this is not true david kahn s the codebreakers a history of cryptography makes two things obvious cryptography is a spontaneous invention of private human individuals and has been going on for thousands of years teen age slang and cipher inventions provide a modern example of this spontaneous creation the systems people created on their own were roughly as secure as and sometimes more secure than those used by military and diplomatic users of that time although they seem very simple and insecure today e g in places the bible used a more complex simple substitution than caesar did for his military dispatches but before caesar i commend kahn s book to all who might be interested disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more russotto vnet ibm com matthew t russotto writes in the clipper case a representative body of experts is going to be allowed to audit it and we ll have assurances maybe even from the president that other than the escrowed keys there are no back doors while some may not have confidence in that i am not among them wow assurances from the president why those are almost as good as campaign promises i don t see why anyone wouldn t have confidence in those i don t think mr clinton can even understand the technical details of the clipper encryption scheme so his assurances are of no value at al if he gives them he just says what a panel of experts told him if i lived in the usa i would hope those experts were not paid by the fill here you favorite letter combination j c a wevers the only nature of reality is physics johan stack urc tue nl
sci.crypt	re i have seen the lobby and it is us ns lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons wrote if some kind soul out there would write a letter and upload it to the net everyone could capture it print it out and snail mail it out to their local congressional critter btw i m working on one you should realize that form letters are the worst way to influence your congresscritters exact copies are routinely placed on the lowest rung of the opinion ladder if you want to write and i think you should take the time to really write a letter things to emphasize it s been said that usenet is available to the technical elite i e the techies at corporate sites and universi ties emphasize that you are part of the group that will be making developing using clinton s data superhighway explain how you are intimately familiar with both computing and data communications if this is the case don t call your self an expert after wiring in a bps modem this will distinguish your letter from the random flamers don t turn it into braggadocio just tell them that you know the technical sides of the issue don t overdo jargon and gobbledygook remember your letter will be first read in all likelihood by a staffer who may even be a college student if they don t understand it your views won t even make the running total sheets be concise don t ramble rants are definitely out of place cite references if necessary but only use accepted references like academic journals my neighbor jim is not a real refer ence unfortunately very few congresscritters really understand electronic communications encourage them to pick up access to compuserve america online or one of the free nets offer to send them samples if you are in a position to do so offer them or their staffers back in the home state access to your systems offer to give a demonstration the next time they re in town your offer to get personally involved in helping them will give your opinions more credence in addition to sending mail to your representatives send mail to the members of the committee or subcommittee that is dealing with the issue if your congresscritter isn t on the committee they can t be of much help until the matter comes to the floor wes ps i d suggest drawing analogies between digital communication and the more traditional media but usenet doesn t have a decent track record in the analogy department rachel elizabeth morgan am oh yeah i can be reached as pounds ounces despite coming weeks early morgan engr uky edu to netters who gave constant encouragement and prayer thanks for everything
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only ifarqhar laurel ocs mq edu au ian farquhar writes hmmm i also wonder what intergraph thinks about the use of the name clipper for this device not to mention computer associates i ll have to be careful to stop telling people i m a clipper programmer they might lynch me mathew
sci.crypt	re does rush read his e mail rick ee uwm edu rick miller writes rsilvers nynexst com robert silvers writes send something to rush linbaugh about clinton taking away our right to privacy and how if the govt standard takes off only people with lots of money drug dealers will be able to justify des stuff he will slam clinton for this on the air rob i seem to recall rush saying that he has a compuserve account if anyone wants to e mail him all we need is his account number i e and then we could e mail him via gateway by using a dot instead of a comma like so compuserve com this is not his address so does anyone know his e mail address he says he uses it all the time i wonder if he reads alt fan rush limbaugh his ego is big enough rick miller rick ee uwm edu ricxjo discus mil wi us ricxjo muelisto send a postcard get one back enposxtigu bildkarton kaj vi ricevos alion i ve heard he doesn t read alt fan rush but i have no idea of a compuserve e mail address
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in fplpdh bwwbedwenj transarc com lyle seaman transarc com writes look we collectively have the power to throw the bums out but we don t use it we clearly don t need to go burning things down but we clearly do need to throw at least some of the bums out unfortunately the bums have learned to target only small groups of people at a single time so the masses won t react and throw them out eventually the masses will react unless the bums cease their relentless encroachment on liberty and despoilment of the economy the sooner it happens the less the damages will be i don t want to live in a war zone either i want to see the bums thrown out before they do some real damage before they do some real damage you haven t been paying attention it seems the so called war on drugs has already done major damage to the us constitution howard s shubs hshubs bix com for to win victories in the denim adept hshubs cis umassd edu battles is not the acme of skill
sci.crypt	re does rush read his e mail rsilvers nynexst com robert silvers writes send something to rush linbaugh about clinton taking away our right to privacy and how if the govt standard takes off only people with lots of money drug dealers will be able to justify des stuff he will slam clinton for this on the air he ll slam clinton for anything at all on the air i just do not understand why he remains so popular he ll take a piece of video of clinton walking along find a frame in which clinton wrinkles his nose say freeze on it and blow it up full screen and then rant for five minutes on how no one could possibly trust someone with such a face and such beady greedy little eyes i ve seen this on his tv show it was around the time of the inauguration can anyone call this stuff legitimate i hate to say informed commentary how can anyone with half a brain in his or her head continue to watch it the american tv watching and i guess radio listening public never ceases to amaze me j oops have i just inadvertently answered my own question i myself only see it when i run across it every couple months when channel surfing late at night the longest i ve been able to stand him was about minutes apologies for stripping the alt fan rush groups from the newsgroups line the software here apparently rejects anything with groups we don t carry and we don t carry those also i removed sci crypt from followups nets levin bbn com there were sweetheart roses on yancey wilmerding s pots bureau that morning wide eyed and distraught she n mnf stood with all her faculties rooted to the floor s j perelman
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography in article apr gems vcu edu langford gems vcu edu writes second amendment gives us the right to keep and bear arms strong cryptography is arms according to the u s government that s why it s so hard to export therefore we have a constituitional right to strong cryptography better i think is our right peacably to assemble i have a right to meet you in a park and talk privately i have a right to see if anyone is nearby listening in cyberspace cryptography gives us a right to assemble with control over who overhears us disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in article bu edu uni acs bu edu shaen bernhardt writes i am a conserveative believe it or not a law and order conserveative but the move to a centralized authoratarian regime really scares me mostly because i know you cant go far wrong underestimating the intelligence of the american people tell them it s going to keep them safe from drug dealers and terrorists and they will let you put cameras in their home there is one point i d like to make that most people seem to have forgotten that is that one of the underlining principles in the constitution is a distrust of governmental authority and control all those checks balances is because they realize that you should distrust those in power what everyone seems to have forgotten as well is the original reason that the bill of rights guaranteed the right to bear arms it s inclusion was not to allow you to protect yourself against other citizens but to prevent the government from taking away your only means of protecting yourself from an armed and aggressive government its hard to oppress your citizenry when its armed against you i am not a fanatic i m a retired naval officer because i have spent so much time defending it perhaps i understand its purpose as well as its plan lance kimes
sci.crypt	re does rush read his e mail n henson cc wwu edu sean dean writes other posts deleted i ve heard he doesn t read alt fan rush but i have no idea of a compuserve e mail address does anyone have rush limbaugh s e mail address is there anyone out there on compuserve who might be able to look it up or otherwise find it maybe it would be impossible but i thought i should at least ask mr weather r b zeus tamu edu ken blair
sci.crypt	re write to clinton in r a h t transfer stratus com cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison writes i ve been reading the sci crypt alt privacy clipper and comp org eff talk discussions about the clipper chip and find as usual that most of us think alike so there s a lot of repitition if each of these messages were sent to clinton as well as to the net or instead of to the net we might actually have some effect mcimail com white house i ve already written a char commentary from my mci mail account so i can t be accused of being a hacker arthur l rubin a rubin dsg dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer
sci.crypt	program eurocrypt may lofthus norway program eurocrypt may lofthus norway general chair kaare presttun email eurocrypt alcatel no program chair tor helleseth department of informatics university of bergen n bergen norway email torh ii uib no monday may session authentication chair j seberry welcome and opening remarks on the relation between a codes and codes correcting independent errors t johansson b smeets lund university sweden and g kabatianskii institute for problems of information transmission russia optimal authentication systems r safavi naini and l tombak university of wollongong australia coffee or tea session public key chair a odlyzko factoring integers using simd sieves b dixon princeton university usa and a k lenstra bellcore usa a new elliptic curve based analogue of rsa n demytko telecom research laboratories australia weaknesses of a public key cryptosystem based on factorization of finite groups j stern ens france lunch session block ciphers chair a de santis differentially uniform mappings for cryptography k nyberg technical university of vienna austria on permutations against differential cryptanalysis t beth and c ding eiss university of karlsruhe germany two new classes of bent functions c carlet inria france boolean functions satisfying a higher order strict avalanche condition t w cusick suny buffalo usa coffee or tea session secret sharing chair y desmedt size of shares and probability of cheating in threshold schemes m carpentieri a de santis and u vaccaro university of salerno italy nonperfect secret sharing schemes and matroids k kurosawa k okada k sakano w ogata and s tsujii tokyo institute of technology japan tuesday may session streamciphers i chair t helleseth from the memoars of a norwegian cryptolog e selmer university of bergen norway invited talk on the linear complexity of products of shift register sequences r gottfert and h niderreiter austrian academy of sciences vienna austria coffee or tea session streamciphers ii chair d gollman resynchronisation weaknesses in synchronous stream ciphers j daemen r govaerts and j vandewalle esat ku leuven belgium blind synchronization of m sequences with even span r games and j j rushanan mitre usa on constructions and nonlinearity of correlation immune functions j seberry x zhang and y zheng university of wollongong australia lunch session digital signatures chair c schnorr practical and provable secure release of a secret and exchange of signatures i b damgard aarhus university denmark subliminal communication is easy using the dsa g j simmons can oss be repaired d naccache gemplus france coffee or tea session protocols i chair k kurosawa limitations of logical analysis of cryptographic protocols c boyd and w mao university of manchester united kingdom practical anonymous and secure voting scheme k itoh c park and k kurosawa tokyo institute of technology japan untransferable rights in a client independent server environment j domingo ferrer university of barcelona spain interactive hashing simplifies zero knowledge protocol design r ostrovsky uc berkeley usa r venkatesan bellcore usa and m yung ibm t watson usa rump session chair i ingemarsson accepted paper security in digital mobile communication systems c park k kurosawa t okamoto and s tsujii tokyo institute of technology japan wednesday may session hash functions chair b preneel one way accumulators a decentralized alternative to digital signatures j benaloh and m de mare clarkson university usa some attacks on the arl hash function i b damgard and l r knudsen aarhus university denmark collisions for the compression function of md b den boer and a bosselaers esat ku leuven belgium how to find and avoid collisions for the knapsack hash function j patarin bull cp france coffee or tea session payment systems chair i b damgard single term off line coins n t ferguson cwi amsterdam the netherlands improved privacy in wallets with observers r j f cramer cwi amsterdam the netherlands and t p pedersen aarhus university denmark how to prevent the mafia fraud using distance bounding protocols s brands and d chaum cwi amsterdam the netherlands lunch session cryptanalysis chair g j simmons on the distribution of characteristics in bijective mappings l o connor university of waterloo canada on the security of the idea block cipher w meier htl switzerland linear cryptanalysis method for des cipher m matsui mitsubishi japan new types of cryptanalytic attacks using related keys e biham technion israel coffee or tea session protocols ii chair p landrock reconciliation on a secret key through public discussion g brassard and l salvail university of montreal canada global unpredictable bit generation without broadcast d beaver and n so penn state university usa iacr business meeting keywords
sci.crypt	re the secret source of that announcement bear tigger cs colorado edu bear giles writes i wish them luck in figuring out who i am based on that information they can probably figure out i m liberal with a technical degree but humanistic interests from a common thread throughout my posts but that describes a fair portion of the users of internet sounds like you are the brother of sibble to me hey that wasn t nice oh shut up i m posting now both of you pipe down or i will take control of the arms and sock you in the mouth
sci.crypt	re suggestions for escrow agencies was re more technical details paul robichaux robichau lambda msfc nasa gov wrote as a private citizen i would feel much more secure in my person and papers knowing that an organization committed to individual civil liberties the aclu and the nra come to mind was safeguarding half of my key both the aclu and the nra are resistent to government pressure by the simple expedient fact that they are not supported funded or overtly controlled by the government thats one problem that has so far been overlooked these two escrow agencies will have to create a secure database and service the input and output of keys who pays for this if they refuse an illegal request from some congressman to deliver a key can their budget by cut to punish them will congress be forced to fund them forever the problem is that laws can change congress may pass a law setting up an escrow agency with instructions that keys are private some future congress may change that law suppose pre nazi germany had a clipper system do you think the escrow agencies would have told hitler that he could not have the keys without a valid court order in effect you must set up escrow agencies as a fourth branch of the goverment and isolate them from any outside interferance they will be able to directly tap into federal funds with no accountability to anyone except through a court challenge john eaton hp vcd johne
sci.crypt	re i have seen the lobby and it is us in article apr eff org a charles gross acg eff org writes the nra is successful because among a number of things on the drop of a hat they can get a congresspersons office flooded with postcards faxes and phone calls certainly with our way cool internet powers of organization we can act in the same way if such action is appropriate i don t know about you but i have nearly forgotten how to generate paper mail if i had e mail to congress i would have written many letters by now i haven t written one yet as it turns out writing on paper is such a complicated job for those of us hooked on our way cool internet disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate in article cmm jon gode ifi uio no jon lnes jon ifi uio no writes a person i know belonging to a research lab of a rivate company claimed to me during a priavte conversation that given the equipment in his lab he could crack a kerberos ticket in minutes to an hour he had access to rather powerful des hardware but not of an extraordinare kind i believe the attack was possible because of the amount of known plaintext in the ticket which itself constitutes a small message this was two years ago des is no longer usable for encryption of really sensitive data for a lot of purposes however it is still very adequate this sounds an awful lot like a password guesser not a weakness in des merritt and i pointed out this weakness in kerberos in a paper that came out about years ago in both computer communications review and usenix for that matter it was loudly discussed on the kerberos mailing list even earlier the problem has nothing whatsoever to do with des and everything to do with bad password selection i m perfectly willing to believe that there are cryptanalytic attacks possible on des i m quite dubious that private research labs know them and the parameters of a brute force attack are quite well established see for example the garon and outerbridge paper in the july cryptologia you re not going to do it in an hour with only rather powerful des hardware i ll leave the arithmetic as an exercise for the reader on average you ll need to do trials pick your own parameters for how fast the des engine runs and for how many such engines are used
sci.crypt	crypto penpals i came i lurked i read the faq now having purchased the recommended books and having taken to heart the advice that one knows nothing about crypto without having done a stint as a cryptanalyst i would like to correspond with people interested in cryptology i am working on implementing the cryptanalyst s workbench example in booch s ood with applications i hope to start sending ciphers back and forth so each of us can practice cracking them i would like to start with simple ceaser s ciphers and progress roughly according to david kahn s book of course i would be interested in general discussions and math also i hope to have some foriegn correspondants so that we can test the response time of the men in the suits i ve been hearing so much about unfortunately as a product of the american education system i only know english looking forward to any and all responses james james m kliegel kliegel key amdahl com
sci.crypt	re i have seen the lobby and it is us in r av bg transfer stratus com cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison writes in article apr eff org a charles gross acg eff org writes the nra is successful because among a number of things on the drop of a hat they can get a congresspersons office flooded with postcards faxes and phone calls certainly with our way cool internet powers of organization we can act in the same way if such action is appropriate i don t know about you but i have nearly forgotten how to generate paper mail if i had e mail to congress i would have written many letters by now i haven t written one yet as it turns out writing on paper is such a complicated job for those of us hooked on our way cool internet that s what mci mail is for compuserve also has congressgrams tm this is not intended as an advertisement that really is what mci mail was intended for according to their ads arthur l rubin a rubin dsg dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer
sci.crypt	clipper freedom comments begin pgp signed message gasp i ve just spent hours catching up on sci crypt here slow reader i guess and i really have to put out a few comments too first let me flame the famous dave s he s obviously only years old cut him some slack the joke about clinton crypto drugs slammed me thru the roof nice job guys i ve been working on marijuana legalization for over years now clinton s actions so far have really helped but because of government action taken against various other groups i have developed a bit des based on public literature to protect my mailing list the s boxes are the critical component and since i chose out of based on the key cracking this des is going to tough the reason it slows you down a touch is that for each key you try you need to use a different set of s boxes i know it s only a vector but it sure makes random search a pain several marijuana legalization groups have had their mailing lists confiscated when people were charged with drug use sales it s not a crime to be a member of a legalization org but you will be watched it really is important to write a letter to every official you personally vote for to explain why your privacy is being destroyed by the cripple chip amazingly enough they do listen when they get enough mail the doonsbery jokes about nra postcards are real and the imi illinois marijuana initiative has grown to the point where we are seeing some changes it s pretty clear that all the hullabaloo is really about the implimentation decision being made behind our backs as vesselin points out this was common practice in communist regimes and may be again depending on how the vote goes but just as criminals have guns and law abiding citizens don t and criminals like me have marijuana and law abiding subjects don t criminals like me will have secure crypto while law abiding robots don t pgp is nice but as time goes on we all can do better and to save our hides we will someone posted an excerpt from machiavelli he s my favorite dude years ago he saw clearly how people are and tried to explain that to princes who wanted people to obey one section not quoted i ve got the prince at home so i ll just paraphrase had to do with conquring a free city the only way is to completly destroy it failing that you must appoint locals to high positions and accept the people s customs even after years of oppression a people will remember their heratige and rise up to overthrow the oppresive government and he gave an example and that was years before thomas jefferson there were questions about watching traffic only interesting traffic is watched stuff that goes overseas and comes back stuff with keywords like marijauana cryptography nsa certain individuals who are known subversives etc it is easy enough to store all that traffic so if you know how to be subversive i e how to be unseen it s pretty easy to go unnoticed for a long time the stronger your crypto system and the less you re noticed the better your chances of developing an organization which can diseminate truth to the masses which gets me to the thread about a public encrypted conference that s just silly the first thing the feds do is send in an infiltrator like dave s and they know what you re doing it will be fun for teenagers and college students but for the real world it s pretty pointless crypto is useful for more things than hiding where you get your marijuana guns drugs and crypto do have some commonality there are people in government who want you to obey their rules as lundquist says in alt drugs live free or don t machiavelli pointed out that s just how most people actually live inspite of appearences to the contrary it s true that the decision to shove the clipper not the same thing as intergraph s down our throats violates the principles of what the u s was founded on but the government is full of idiotic robots called bureaucrats and there s less to worry about than one might think only really innocent read naive subjects of the u s will be hurt by this the rest of us criminals will live in secure freedom de toqueville pointed out years ago that the tyranny of the majority will be mitigated by the mediocrity of the government and given what i see government officials doing where i work argonne national lab the level of stupidity makes dave s look smart patience persistence truth work dvader hemp imi hep anl gov dr mike home mrosing igc org
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article strnlghtc who fk netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes i wouldn t think so asking people to trust a secret algorithm seems unsound to me maybe so but it s quite common there are millions of macintosh users who have no idea what s in apple s patented roms many have modems connected how do you know all your business secrets aren t being stolen answer because you trust apple because if any such attempt however sophicsticated came out it would destroy apple s credibility forever then there s also because it s not secret if i want to i can go look at apple s copyrighted roms in a mac so they re not keeping any secrets you don t even have to pry the top off the chip and use an electron microscope you just have to read the data in memory and see if you can figure out what it means motorola object code isn t all that obscure yes it s copyrighted so i can t go selling copies or using the copy myself but i can see it and disassemble it they re not asking me to trust their honesty they re asking me to trust the quality of their assembly language programming but i can see for myself what the performance price and crashes day are nsa an organization not known for its honesty or openness is asking me to trust them with my privacy but they won t trust me feh pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	clipper not good enough for government there s been some discussion very recently as to whether the government once again might exempt themselves from something they use to screw us over well from comp dcom telecom from lesreeves attmail com subject odds n ends in the news the clipper chip device introduced yesterday by at t may not be suitable for government use says house telecom subcommittee chairman markey in a letter to commerce secretary brown markey asked whether the use of the technology could lead to inadvertently increased costs to those u s companies hoping to serve both the government and private markets markey has ordered brown to answer several questions about security and cost concerns by april communications daily show me a guy who s afraid to look bad and i ll show you a guy you can beat every time renee auberjonois
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only in article apr lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger writes qualcomm had spare cycles in the dsps for their new cdma digital cellular phones they wanted to put strong crypto into them since they had the capacity the government decided to discourage them you re blowing smoke qualcomm wants to sell to nice lucrative overseas markets like japan and the ec the government told them don t do encryption if you ever hope to export this technology the reason that cdma doesn t have encryption is not because the g men came a knocking at qualcomm s door it s because qualcomm doesn t think that the us market for digital cellular is big enough for them this is just the international traffic in arms regulations all over again perry has already stated on the net that qualcomm wanted to sell overseas and the government told them they wouldn t be allowed to export so he s only blowing the same smoke you are sure they probably could have made a us version and a non crypto export version and contracted with a bulgarian or japanese software house to develop an overseas crypto rom but that s getting pretty expensive no cylink sells their phones because they re willing to make different stuff for domestic use vs export qualcomm isn t so cylink makes money that s capitalism comrade well some people like capitalism and others prefer free enterprise they re different using the government to stifle your competition is capitalist someone out there will build a unit to do all this better yet prehaps someone will produce a package that turns any box with a sound card into a secure phone someone this and someone that if you think it s so easy why are you whining on the net instead of getting your butt in gear and writing it writing good crypto code is something most good programmers can do writing good new crypto algorithms is a very specialized skill developing new voice coding algorithms is also pretty specialized but finding ways to implement the more complex ones when you don t have enough horsepower is still fairly hairy stuff once the pentium becomes widespread or the next generation of sound boards has dsps on it i suspect we ll see it happen maybe the vanilla soundblaster is enough pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only in article strnlghtc wjag l netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes doug holland claims tom clancy has provided the recipe for nuclear bombs clancy himself says he has omitted certain crucial steps further how do we know clancy knows rather than repeating what he s read or been told in the unclassified domain on the other hand when john aristotle phillips was a junior at princeton trying to keep from flunking physics by doing a terrific term paper his atom bomb design was good enough that it got classified a few of the steps were derived from social engineering e g the name of the explosive but it was fundamentally sound and did get an a the pakistan embassy also called him up trying to get a copy at the time they were lobbying the us government to get some nuclear reactors for purely non military electrical power generation pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography in article hcs transfer stratus com cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison writes to paraphrase i may not agree with what you re encrypting but i defend your right to encrypt it great slogan i m ready to sign up with a crypto lobbying effort though i wouldn t want to do it through an nra offshoot shall we also push for the cra cryptographic rights amendment dwight tuinstra best tuinstra sandman ece clarkson edu tolerable tuinstrd craft camp clarkson edu homo sapiens planetary cancer news at six
sci.crypt	re suggestions for escrow agencies was re more technical details in article c y k vcd hp com johne vcd hp com john eaton writes thats one problem that has so far been overlooked these two escrow agencies will have to create a secure database and service the input and output of keys who pays for this if they refuse an illegal request from some congressman to deliver a key can their budget by cut to punish them will congress be forced to fund them forever the easiest way is a user fee for each clipper chip manufactured this makes the funding separate from government it also has the neat side property that if the chip doesn t catch on the scheme breaks down and the government is back to the drawing boards assuming that they haven t prohibited alternatives in the meantime in fact maybe this should be part of the official system before the government is allowed to move this past the experimental stage they should have to demonstrate economic viability by mass adoption the government is very fond of demonstration projects proving feasibility in the use of government funds for social programs they should have to make a similar feasibility demonstration on economic viability cum acceptance terms for this baby as well let s put it to the only vote that counts a marketplace vote among those who have to pay for it david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	meeting uk cryptoprivacy association begin pgp signed message meeting of the uk cryptoprivacy association saturday may to be held at the offices of forest th floor grosvenor gardens london sw w dh this is located at the corner of hobart place a couple of blocks west of victoria station and almost directly across from the dark green cabbie shelter if you have trouble finding the place please call the office on or call me russell whitaker on my pager and leave an informative message with the telephone number where you can be reached i will return the call almost immediately discussion will range from the usual general topics such as the use of secure public key cryptosystems to protect message data to specific topics such as recent moves by the u s government to restrict choice in data privacy reference recent discussion on usenet groups e g sci crypt and alt security pgp all are invited particularly welcome are members of the newly formed uk community group the local eff in spirit if not in name folks those who plan to attend should email me and let me know please all attendees are requested to bring diskettes preferably ms dos with their pgp public keys as is usual at these gatherings several of us will bring our laptops and will sign public keys subject to the usual caveats reference the documentation for pgp specifically files pgpdoc doc and pgpdoc doc if you do not already have a copy of pgp ms dos and would like to have a copy of this public domain program please bring a formatted medium or high density inch floppy pc diskette you will be provided a copy of the program of course you might prefer to ftp a version of the program from one of the various archive sites i suggest trying demon internet systems which carries the full range of pgp phil zimmerman s pretty good privacy implementations directory pub pgp at gate demon co uk meetings are of indeterminate time those who are interested are invited to join the rest of us at a pseudorandomly determined pub afterwards please note in the past few months interested people have emailed me requesting faqs and special information mailings i regret that except in very unusual cases e g working press i cannot in a timely manner respond to these requests i will however and for the first time do a writeup of this meeting which i will post in various places what i am willing to supply is general information on our activities for the maintainers of existing faqs such as that for alt privacy faq maintainers can contact me at whitaker eternity demon co uk russell earl whitaker whitaker eternity demon co uk communications editor amix rwhitaker extropy the journal of transhumanist thought board member extropy institute exi pgp public key available
sci.crypt	re the secret source of that announcement in article apr cs aukuni ac nz pgut cs aukuni ac nz peter gutmann writes something similar has happened to me ages ago when we were working on pgp we used to send short messages about development issues or simply to test new features around now at this time pgp and certainly the newer version was unknown over here suddenly the admin at the site i was using received a request that i stop sending encrypted email now there is almost no way that some automatic scanner could have found this since they wouldn t have known about pgp they must have checked for unknown data types in the message tried to unscramble it found they couldn t get past the pem armour part and then contacted the sysadmin and asked me to stop luckily the current email carriers are less picky about what goes over their networks is the sending of encrypted traffic without government permission legal in new zealand david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re revised technical summary of clipper chip in article apr guvax acc georgetown edu denning guvax acc georgetown edu writes each chip includes the following components the skipjack encryption algorithm f an bit family key that is common to all chips n a bit serial number this length is subject to change u an bit secret key that unlocks all messages encrypted with the chip to see how the chip is used imagine that it is embedded in the at t telephone security device as it will be suppose i call someone and we both have such a device after pushing a button to start a secure conversation my security device will negotiate an bit session key k with the device at the other end this key negotiation takes place without the clipper chip in general any method of key exchange can be used such as the diffie hellman public key distribution method once the session key k is established the clipper chip is used to encrypt the conversation or message stream m digitized voice the telephone security device feeds k and m into the chip to produce two values e m k the encrypted message stream and e e k u n f a law enforcement field which are transmitted over the telephone line the law enforcement field thus contains the session key k encrypted under the unit key u concatenated with the serial number n all encrypted under the family key f the law enforcement field is decrypted by law enforcement after an authorized wiretap has been installed one very interesting thing i notice about this is that the only use of the chip key is to encode the session key for the law enforcement field it is not used at all by the encryption algorithm it seems like it would be possible to create a device that would be otherwise compatible but would send out a bogus law enforcement field this might render the device unusable with normal devices if there s some sort of validation involving the law enforcement field but it could certainly be used with other such modified devices of course this is irrelevant if the nsa has a backdoor in the algorithm but it does make it possible to defeat the key escrow system wilt thou seal up avenues of ill pay every tom weinstein debt as though god wrote the bill emmerson tomw orac esd sgi com
sci.crypt	re the secret source of that announcement jebright magnus acs ohio state edu james r ebright writes i assume most of the time these guys sat around the office with their thumbs up their ass as there isn t that much stuff coming out of columbus compuserve is in columbus oh so are the corporate headquarters of several major insurance companies the largest private r d company in the world batelle memorial institute dcsc the defense construction supply center ohio state university one of the three largest us universities oclc the online college library center and so on you d be amazed actually columbus only looks like a cow town amanda walker intercon systems corporation
sci.crypt	summary responses research on oracle password security my original post was i am building an oracle v database to serve as a repository for information which is considered proprietary or confidential as such i want to verify the security of oracle passwords and apply some of the same security checking techniques we use on our nix systems specifically i would like to use crack or something like it to check the encrypted data for easily guessed passwords the use of crack would depend on oracle using the unix password encryption scheme does anyone know if this is the case or what method is used any other methods for security checking audit in the oracle environment would be much appreciated this article will just scratch the surface of a few security considerations comments are requested email fw world std com my thanks to the people who responded both on usenet and from oracle corp the most common response was to suggest use of oracle audit features or ops passwords to control access opinion on ops included suggestions to use and not use i was also advised to use table views to refine the granularity of access control one important security consideration in networked installations is that ops accounts presume that the client host provides user authentication os server ops users are only as secure as the least secure machine on the network hence you should probably not define any ops accounts on systems with pc s or limit access of ops accounts to data with no security concerns unix oracle servers provide for disabling ops access over the network orasrv option while relying on host security for local processes internally oracle provides powerful and well documented sic audit mechanisms which the dba will use to monitor system and data access these tools can be used to track the primary security risks from within the oracle environment oracle password security is based on a proprietary usage of des encryption oracle corp states that the algorithm is not prone to cleartext attack this is a difficult claim to substantiate since the algorithm is unknown the concern here is that if users choose easily guessed passwords if a cracker can gain access to your oracle database files through the host operating system s he could extract the cyphertext password data and apply cryptanalysis techniques to learn the users passwords as security risks go the above scenario is pretty low severity certainly once an intruder has access to the raw database files s he can access to the data in them if a cracker could break the passwords however s he could do substantial damage without alerting the auditing mechanism s and leaving and audit trail which would point to valid users at present oracle like unix provides no native means of ensuring that passwords are not guessable as with all computer security the most important defense is to educate users in the safe choice of passwords these techniques are well discussed in internet rfc and the crack manual both available from ftp archive servers and unix r system security curry david a addison welsey forrest whitcher fw world std com boston scientific corp watertown ma
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article strnlghtc who fk netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article a rubin dsg dse beckman com a rubin dsg dse beckman com arthur rubin writes i wouldn t think so asking people to trust a secret algorithm seems unsound to me maybe so but it s quite common not when your talking about cryptography there are millions of macintosh users who have no idea what s in apple s patented roms many have modems connected how do you know all your business secrets aren t being stolen answer because you trust apple think again you won t see me using apple s new signature from the finder feature because if any such attempt however sophicsticated came out it would destroy apple s credibility forever this analogy fails in its assumption that the government gives two squirts about credibility in addition apple s proclaimed purpose in releasing the macintosh wasn t survellience quite the opposite on january apple will introduce macintosh and you ll see why won t be like so don t give me any bullshit analogies about how we trust coke not to put mind control drugs in every can to get us to buy more in the clipper case a representative body of experts is going to be allowed to audit it and we ll have assurances maybe even from the president that other than the escrowed keys there are no back doors while some may not have confidence in that i am not among them it s a lot more assurance than we get for many things we routinely trust in everyday life one of the reasons we should be all the more suspicious when was the last time the president wasted his time to comfort americans just another reason to look closely at exactally what s going on david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted uni acs bu edu uni acs bu edu public keys by finger and or request public key archives pgp public keys pgp iastate edu sovereignty is the sign of a brutal past fight clinton s wiretap chip df f b de b c c crypto is not a crime ask me how
sci.crypt	what would happen if export restrictions violated ok i heard a lot of talk about the nsa s infamous control over encryption export through the itar here s a question say i develop this great new encryption system and i want to sell my software worldwide the thought police then come in and say this algorithm is a threat to national security you will not be permitted to export it at this point what kind of trouble could i get into if i ignored the itar and sold my program to international customers anyway doug holland doug holland anyone who tries to take away my freedom holland cs colostate edu of speech will have to pry it from my pgp key available by e mail cold dead lips
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow in article mjs apr behemoth genetics wisc edu mjs behemoth genetics wisc edu mike schmelzer writes let me ask you this would you trust richard nixon with your crypto keys i wouldn t i take it you mean president nixon not private citizen nixon sure nothing i m doing would be of the slightest interest to president nixon mr sternlight your naivete and historical ignorance is appalling history lesson detailing deleted nonsense i wasn t asked if larry o brien should trust nixon with his keys but whether i would david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re the clipper chip a technical summary pat myrto says if law enforcement wants keys let them get a court order and then ask him for them most use of probably cause wiretapping warrants isn t to decrypt historical traffic but for prospective listening once probably cause is established pat s approach would tip off the crooks david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	a parable scottmi microsoft com scott miller techcom writes stikes me that all this concern over the government s ability to eavesdrop is a little overblown what can t they do today my understanding is that they already can tap listen get access exc to our phone lines bank records etc etc again well they can t listen in on much of mine since i already use cryptography for much of my electronic mail and will start using it for my telephony as soon as practical however allow me to tell a parable there was once a far away land called ruritania and in ruritania there was a strange phenonmenon all the trees that grew in ruritainia were transparent now in the days when people had lived in mud huts this had not been a problem but now high tech wood technology had been developed and in the new age of wood everyone in ruritania found that their homes were all see through now until this point no one ever thought of allowing the police to spy on someone s home but the new technology made this tempting this being a civilized country however warrants were required to use binoculars and watch someone in their home the police taking advantage of this would get warrants to use binoculars and peer in to see what was going on occassionally they would use binoculars without a warrant but everyone pretended that this didn t happen one day a smart man invented paint and if you painted your house suddenly the police couldn t watch all your actions at will things would go back to the way they were in the old age completely private indignant the state decided to try to require that all homes have video cameras installed in every nook and cranny after all they said with this new development crime could run rampant installing video cameras doesn t mean that the police get any new capability they are just keeping the old one a wise man pointed out that citizens were not obligated to make the lives of the police easy that the police had survived all through the mud hut age without being able to watch the citizens at will and that ruritania was a civilized country where not everything that was expedient was permitted for instance in a neighboring country it had been discovered that torture was an extremely effective way to solve crimes ruritania had banned this practice in spite of its expedience indeed why have warrants at all he asked if we are interested only in expedience a famous paint technologist dorothy quisling intervened however she noted that people might take photographs of children masturbating should the new paint technology be widely deployed without safeguards and the law was passed soon it was discovered that some citizens would cover their mouths while speaking to each other thus preventing the police from reading their lips through the video cameras this had to be prevented the police said after all it was preventing them from conducting their lawful surveilance the wise man pointed out that the police had never before been allowed to listen in on people s homes but dorothy quisling pointed out that people might use this new invention of covering their mouths with veils to discuss the kidnapping and mutilation of children no one in the legislature wanted to be accused of being in favor of mutilating children but then again no one wanted to interfere in people s rights to wear what they liked so a compromise was reached whereby all homes were installed with microphones in each room to accompany the video cameras the wise man lamented few if any child mutilations had ever been solved by the old lip reading technology but it was too late the microphones were installed everwhere however it was discovered that this was insufficient to prevent citizens from hiding information from the authorities because some of them would cleverly speak in languages that the police could not understand a new law was proposed to force all citizens to speak at all times only in ruritanian and for good measure to require that they speak clearly and distinctly near the microphones after all dorothy quisling pointed out they might be using the opportunity to speak in private to mask terrorist activities terrorism struck terror into everyone s hearts and they rejoiced at the brulliance of this new law meanwhile the wise man talked one evening to his friends on how all of this was making a sham of the constitution of ruritania of which all ruritanians were proud why he asked are we obligated to sacrifice all our freedom and privacy to make the lives of the police easier there isn t any real evidence that this makes any big dent in crime anyway all it does is make our privacy forfeit to the state however the wise man made the mistake of saying this as the law required in ruritanian clearly and distinctly and near a microphone soon the newly formed ruritanian secret police arrived and took him off and got him to confess by torturing him torture was after all far more efficient than the old methods and had been recently instituted to stop the recent wave of people thinking obscene thoughts about tomatoes which dorothy quisling noted was one of the major problems of the new age of plenty and joy perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	re new encryption algorithm arthur melnick posts an interesting first hand message about his nea algorithm though i have no reason to disbelieve anything he says i want to clarify one point he says he has no connection with the nsa if he was part of an nsa plot of course he d say that now i don t think he is but the level of some discussion here is of that sort and very quickly we reach the point where it s impossible to continue rationally discussing some issues i am not a crook well if you were of course you d say that or the ever popular favorite please prove the following negative i don t know what to do with such messages so i have taken to ignoring them comments david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re the clipper chip a technical summary for some reason my fingers want to type probably cause whenever i want to say probable cause sorry for any confusion in the previous message david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article bu edu uni acs bu edu shaen bernhardt writes so don t give me any bullshit analogies about how we trust coke not to put mind control drugs in every can to get us to buy more shhh coke drinkers haven t found out about phosphoric acid yet david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re can des code be shipped to canada in article strnlghtc wkrt ja netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes i believe it is illegal to send any cryptographic code out of the country without an export license others will correct me if this is inaccurate glad to you are correct it is illegal to send cryptographic code and lots of other things out of the country without a license however every us citizen has a general export license allowing export of lots of things including constitutionally protected speech this has the effect that it is legal for us citizens to export some things which it is illegal for a us corporation to export without first obtaining a license dunno if you d get one for the particular code you have the only way to find out is to apply for a license nope talk to a good lawyer in the area of export law but in general the government has to have a very good national security case to try prevent the export of anything you personally might wish to publish yes i worded that the way i did intentionally it is a lot easier for the government to try to prevent the export of information than to charge someone with a crime after the fact espionage is probably the only exception note that you need to distinguish between what is legal to send to canada if you have such a license and what is legal to send if you don t if you are a us citizen you have a general license i am not a lawyer so take some of this with a grain of salt however i have also had to swim through both itar and export regs in a few cases robert i eachus with standard disclaimer use standard disclaimer function message text in clever ideas return better ideas is
sci.crypt	crypto file system reference a while ago there was a reference to a paper on a crypto file system cfs given by someone at at at t how can i get a copy is it available on the net was it published who was the author thanks peter reilley pvr wiis wang com ka lat well that about says it
sci.crypt	re sorry folks read this in article c w qw pb acsu buffalo edu mckee cs buffalo edu douglas mckee writes in article apr ucsu colorado edu andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson writes in article apr ucsu colorado edu andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson writes the date i have for this is washington upi the war on drugs is about to get a fresh i just found out from my source that this article was a joke heh heh it seemed pretty damn convincing to me from the start i just didn t notice the smiley at the end of the article and there were a few other hints which i should of caught well isn t this just a hoot all i read on this group is a bunch of ppl fearing the misuses of information by the big bad evil govt this just happens to be a case of an ordinary joe netter who decided that he would create and or distribute some misinformation ppl buy into bs posts like this i know because i forwarded a copy of the post to my office mate who turned around and was although he won t admit it sorry joe ready to get in a fight about f o r f e i t u r e please if we re going to hold our govt which admittedly has had and still has its problems to high standards then mustn t we follow these too electronic freedoms only go so far again i m extremely sorry about this i got this message several months ago quite a bit before the clipper chip proposal when it was posted to a different newsgroup it was very startling to me as well and i guess i should of verified the source at least to some extent before reposting aaack marc
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only jfc athena mit edu john f carr writes pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger writes well i m not a lawyer but from what i can tell this is completely and utterly untrue the u s does not have an official secrets act we do have laws that will punish you for revealing what classified information you learned in your capacity as a government official contractor etc and we have laws that prohibit stealing such information however if they sell you the chip i can t see that they can make reverse engineering it and revealing the details illegal in most cases information you come by properly is yours to use as you wish but there are certainly exceptions if you write a paper which includes sufficiently detailed information on how to build a nuclear weapon it is classified as i understand the law nuclear weapons design is automatically classified even if you do the work yourself i believe you are then not allowed to read your own paper oh what about the precedent in which nuclear weapons information was published in the progressive i was under the impression that the court held that prior restraint could not be used any lawyers out there perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	is this overreaction jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han writes as one of the happily sleeping people i would just like to ask this aren t people just slightly overreacting to this or are we all of a sudden going to draw parallels to nazi germany and communist russia the point of the matter is that yes this is a serious problem but it is not the end of the world guess what we re doing something now you can t do in a communist country or nazi germany we re complaining about it or rather you re complaining about it and nobody is shooting at us we would like to keep it that way thats the point by reacting strongly and forcefully now we will assure that we continue to remain free you cannot overreact to a threat like this the worst that happens if we overreact is that we waste time and effort the worst that happens if we underreact is tyranny i prefer overreaction myself guess what people you live in one of the few countries in the world where a person can complain without getting shot at doesn t that tell you how precious and hard to maintain freedom is only through centuries of overreaction have we managed to maintain ourselves in this state of even moderate freedom i suggest that overreacting now and in the future is a good thing perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	how to make the clipper chip and wiretapping less bad i ve got an idea that would remove most of the political complaints i have about the clipper chip pass a law stating that if within a year of performaing a wiretap on someone a police agency hasn t managed to convict the suspect of the crime the warrant wiretap was for then that agency owes the suspect million to repay him her for lost privacy of course there are still problems with the technical aspects of clipper and with the one size fits all mentality that would be behind an attempt to enforce it as a standard but this would be a way for those in favor of allowing continued wiretaps to assure us that it will only be used in cases where the crime is important and the police are all but certain that there really will be a conviction john kj elsey
sci.crypt	re wiretapping reality today strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes some of the messages here seem to reflect the view that the government is listening in on everything and one will have to hide one s clipper messages somehow if non escrowed crypto goes away a little perspective might be in order the number of court ordered wire taps is pretty low law enforcement has to present pretty good evidence to get even that limited number of authorizations thus the overwhelming majority of conversations are neither tapped nor recorded by the government and for that to happen they have to a have a pretty good reason with evidence b use this sparingly on highest priority pretty good reasons though the system may be imperfect it is a long way from the horror stories some here seem to believe or anticipate david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted again we have the trust in government problem here members of mr sternlight s generation trust the government to a degree which members of my generation find ridiculous i would suggest that mr sternlight read about the cointelpro program or about j edgar hoover or about the wire tapping of martin luther king then after he has digested this information he can ponder the fact that while the government does not tap every conversation that they have a record of tapping many conversations that they have no right to even under their own laws given the long history of members of the us government ignoring the laws that apply to them it is no wonder that so many people in here sound so paranoid and given the fact that it is often difficult or impossible to punish these individuals once they are discovered it is no wonder that so many people in here have so little faith in the escrow proposal for clipper jamie jamison
sci.crypt	pseudocollisions in md following is a short note commenting on den boer and bosselaers recent work on the md message digest algorithm feel free to email questions or further comments burt kaliski rsa laboratories documentstyle pt article begin document title on pseudocollisions in the md message digest algorithm author burton s kaliski jr tt burt rsa com and matthew j b robshaw tt matt rsa com and rsa laboratories marine parkway redwood city ca date april maketitle a message digest algorithm maps a message of arbitrary length to a digest of fixed length and has three properties computing the digest is easy finding a message with a given digest inversion is hard and finding two messages with the same digest collision is also hard message digest algorithms have many applications including digital signatures and message authentication rsa data security s md message digest algorithm developed by ron rivest cite rfc md maps a message to a bit message digest computing the digest of a one megabyte message takes as little as a second while no message digest algorithm can yet be em proved secure md is believed to be at least as good as any other that maps to a bit digest inversion should take about operations and collision should take about operations no one has found a faster approach to inversion or collision recent work by den boer and bosselaers cite den boer md presents a special kind of pseudocollision in md s internal compression function which maps a bit message block x and a bit input state s to a bit output state they show how to find a message block x and two related input states s and s that yield the same output state f x s f x s their well thought approach exploits structural properties of the collision function to find a pseudocollision in about operations much less than one would expect practical implications of this pseudocollision work to the security of md are not evident while a real collision in md implies a pseudocollision or a pseudo inversion a pseudocollision need not imply a real collision indeed a real collision since it involves two different messages would almost always involve em different message blocks x and x such that f x s f x s but the pseudocollisions have the same message blocks moreover the input states s and s would generally be unrelated but the pseudocollisions input states are the same except for four bits there does not seem to be any way to extend den boer and bosselaers approach to anything beyond the special pseudocollisions a limitation they readily admit it is reasonable therefore to believe that md remains secure while den boer and bosselaers have found interesting structural properties in md the properties seem only to lead to special pseudocollisions and not anything approaching real collisions further research of course will give a better understanding of the strengths of md and other message digest algorithms with the eventual hope that such algorithms can in some sense be proved secure bibliographystyle plain begin thebibliography bibitem den boer md bert den boer and antoon bosselaers newblock collisions for the compression function of md newblock in it advances in cryptology eurocrypt newblock preprint bibitem rfc md r l rivest newblock it rfc the md message digest algorithm newblock internet activities board april end thebibliography end document
sci.crypt	re suggestions for escrow agencies was re more technical details in article strnlghtc ybka dp netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight brings up the issue of how the escrow agent will be paid and the fact that the government had financial leverage if they don t cooperate it s an important issue especially if one of the escrow agents decides they d rather stop offering the service i assume that if the escrow agent isn t the government then the contract for providing escrow service would include some termination clause like returning the keys the easiest way is a user fee for each clipper chip manufactured this makes the funding separate from government but who s the user paying the fees here and what s the service if the user is the government then the funding s not separate from the government if the user is the buyer what s the service keeping the key for me no thanks i don t need and won t buy their service not telling everybody my key sounds like blackmail if the user is the manufacturer does the user have a choice about buying the alternative is to just generate the key and not escrow it which is fine i d certainly pay more for this kind of key than an escrowed key face it the escrow provider is providing a service the users don t want the only people who want it are the government not the users what you re really talking about is either the government paying for the service up front or per year either from general taxes or from a special direct tax on wiretap chips or on an indirect tax forcing the manufacturer to pay the fee to the escrow agent i hope the escrow people have no way of finding out your name from your serial number especially if the escrow is a government agency here in new jersey we have lots of people willing to provide that sort of services for user fees there are people willing to keep your store from burning down for a small monthly fee though sometimes people refuse to pay and discover that the service really was effective if you go to a baseball game at yankee stadium there are people who will watch your car in the parking lot for a small user fee something could scratch the paint after all and what a shame if your clipper key got out pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	re how to make the clipper chip and wiretapping less bad what is the reason for the push on clipper two days after the lead story here in the mercury times murky news there was another article on industrial espionage by the french someone had said what can it hurt to allow the government to have continued access to our communications they already have it the problem is that yes the do have access and probably more than we realize the government wants exclusive access to communications intercept here in the united states cutting out other access detrimental to the national security tm i also doubt that a certain letter agency that originated the encryption algorithm and the chip designs needs to have anything to do with the escrow system to continue their intercept effort better yet who owns the company doing the programming
sci.crypt	re what would happen if export restrictions violated in article apr yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes ok i heard a lot of talk about the nsa s infamous control over encryption export through the itar here s a question say i develop this great new encryption system and i want to sell my software worldwide the thought police then come in and say this algorithm is a threat to national security you will not be permitted to export it at this point what kind of trouble could i get into if i ignored the itar and sold my program to international customers anyway first of all it s not the thought police it s the export police if you move overseas with your great thoughts in your head write the software there and then sell it the us thought police probably can t do too much about it though you might want to check with your lawyer first however if you write the program here and sell it to furriners you are now an international arms dealer and can get thrown in the clink for many years especially if they decide you d be a good example and cuban drug dealers and fanatic middle eastern terrorists buy your stuff definitions of public domain are different for itar purposes so if you ve got a good enough lawyer who ll do your case for free after they ve confiscated everything you own as evidence you might win but nobody wants to go first since the stakes are quite high pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	re new encryption algorithm in article artmel well sf ca us artmel well sf ca us arthur melnick writes we are strongly opposed to the clipper capstone chips in a press release today our president dr stephen bryen stated it seems as if the government has an unlimited source of funds to use to push its new bugged chips on the american public but do we not understand how the national security agency which is not supposed to be involved in domestic spying can fund the development of a commercial chip intended to accommodate u s government domestic spying activities well actually this one s easy it s their job the nsa is supposed to develop cryptosystems if the government chooses to go ahead and sell those cryptosystems to the masses so be it this sounds a lot like slamming the competition not a cry for justice these guys are way out on a limb if i read that right they ve commited their new algorithm to silicon before it s been made public what are they gonna do if shamir writes a paper showing how to crack the entire class of algorithms in minutes with a slide rule and a pencil if they weren t busy throwing muck to smear their competitors i d feel kinda sorry for em still do a little andrew
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr leland stanford edu arc leland stanford edu andrew richard conway writes i must protest your in a communist country how do you know there haven t been any and are unlikely to ever be any in some socialist dictatorships you can t whilst in some socialist democracies such as france or australia you can of course some people may disagree about france australia being socialist it or rather you re complaining about it and nobody is shooting at us yet guess what people you live in one of the few countries in the world where a person can complain without getting shot at in some circumstances i was at a public meeting last night in the usa where a protester who was very nice and calm and just said before the speaker started to beware of his opinions was forced out of the meeting by two armed policemen there are a lot of things that one cannot do in the usa you may not notice them but as an australian visitor i notice them of course don t over react but don t under react thank you andrew not only for the firm rebuttal but for understanding the difference between communism and socialism even though this is off topic why do people just not understand that just because all those pretty songs about the land of the free and so on sound nice that they may not be true take off those rose colored glasses and get a clue to use two of the better cliches around thanks you again jamie
sci.crypt	re the escrow database in article strnlghtc t k inf netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article tcmayc rs n lz netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy c may writes after the waco massacre and the big brother wiretap chip any tactic is fair this is pernicious nonsense david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of since the fbi s account of what happened is being contradicted on an increasingly frequent basis by other officials investigating the fire the most pernicious idea of all is believing that big brother is going to be well behaved with respect to cryptographic keys in light of the very serious allegations with respect to the doj selling software to various other intelligence services what do you suppose the chances are of some future doj selling escrowed keys to business firms trusting the government to be honest and fair is putting the fox in charge of protecting the chickens clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
sci.crypt	re once they get your keys about people so far have asked once the fbi gets your clipper keys won t they be able to read all your future and past traffic there has been no response from nist nsa ms denning mr hellman or anyone else who might be able to give us an authoritative answer this is troubling didn t nsa think about this or is it a feature and they thought we wouldn t notice i would have thought that by now they would have responded with something of the form well that won t be a problem because very curious lynn grant
sci.crypt	re wiretapping reality today in article r vouinn tv shelley u washington edu niteowl stein u washington edu jamie jamison writes again we have the trust in government problem here members of mr sternlight s generation trust the government to a degree which members of my generation find ridiculous i would suggest that mr sternlight read about the cointelpro program or about j edgar hoover or about you should read the history it was hoover who stopped nixon s cointelpro dead in its tracks because he said it was unconstitutional they tried to get around him every way they could despite other things he may have done for this alone hoover saved the constitution david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re once tapped please restrict your followups however valuable this discussion does not belong on comp org acm or on comp org ieee please edit your followups to include only the appropriate newsgroups edward reid greensboro fl ed titipu resun com or nosc blkhole ed looking for programming contracts especially unisys a series
sci.crypt	re once they get your keys in article dockmaster ncsc mil grant dockmaster ncsc mil lynn r grant writes about people so far have asked once the fbi gets your clipper keys won t they be able to read all your future and past traffic there has been no response from nist nsa ms denning mr hellman or anyone else who might be able to give us an authoritative answer this is troubling the proposal could be modified so that if they get a court order to tap you and don t charge you with a crime within say days they have to buy you a new phone if they do charge you and you are found innocent they have to buy you a new phone david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re crypto papers on the net in article bb c mizzou missouri edu c mizzou missouri edu john kelsey writes i ve recently been reading a paper of merkle s publixhed only on the net i think discussing three potential replacements for des was anyting ever done with these are khufu khafre and or snefru still being discussed anywhere i know snefru is referenced in the rsa faq and i think it may also be in the sci crypt faq on a related topic can anyone point me toward good sites to find papers articles discussions of cryptology i think i ve about exhausted the math sci library here which doesn t seem to have anything more recent than about thanks john kelsey khufu and khafre are both patented biham and shamir showed that differential cryptanalysis can break round khafre with a chosen plaintext attack using different encryptions khafre with rounds can be broken with the same attack using different encryptions there are probably more efficient differential cryptanalytic attacks if someone wants to take the time to look khufu has key dependent s boxes and is immune to differential cryptanalysis source code for this algorithm and khafre are in the patent snefru is a public domain one way hash function the version of snefru that produces a bit hash is vulnerable to differential cryptanalysis vulnerable means that the attack is more efficient that brute force for four passes or less given that sha and md are much more efficient oh yes anyone interested in licensing the patent should contact dave petre director of patent licencing for xerox bruce
sci.crypt	re once they get your keys alt security clipper added to keep them informed of this issue david sternlight strnlght netcom com wrote the proposal could be modified so that if they get a court order to tap you and don t charge you with a crime within say days they have to buy you a new phone if they do charge you and you are found innocent they have to buy you a new phone yes but will they buy you a ticket on a time machine to allow you to go back and use the phone with the new key instead of the phone whose key they obtained it is unclear whether obtaining the key at time also unlocks messages recorded by whomever at earlier times the announcement was silent on this the betting seems to be that once your key has been obtained by the authorities by divorce lawyers by the mafia by the fbi by lost or stolen backup tapes by the nsa etc all previous conversations are unsecure session keys are negotiated but knowing the private key is believed by many commentators here to break the security no doubt more details will emerge so the loss of a key whether one is guilty or innocent may mean a lot more than merely replacing the phone sort of like saying to someone oh i copied your diary but i ll buy you a new one and the system if made mandatory as i expect will make such storing of conversations much easier i fear for one thing the transmission of the escrow key field acts as a clear signal to anyone listening a kind of caller id and callee id on a grand scale also the phone companies may not care as much about protecting the privacy of the calls as they perceive them all to be useless encrypted junk this is a bit of a reach i know suggesting that the clipper will make security more lax anyway still lots of issues unresolved tim may timothy c may crypto anarchy encryption digital money tcmay netcom com anonymous networks digital pseudonyms zero knowledge reputations information markets w a s t e aptos ca black markets collapse of governments higher power public key pgp and mailsafe available
sci.crypt	re is this overreaction perry e metzger pmetzger snark shearson com wrote we would like to keep it that way thats the point by reacting strongly and forcefully now we will assure that we continue to remain free you cannot overreact to a threat like this the worst that happens if we overreact is that we waste time and effort the worst that happens if we underreact is tyranny i prefer overreaction myself only through centuries of overreaction have we managed to maintain ourselves in this state of even moderate freedom i suggest that overreacting now and in the future is a good thing perry is right on target here careful analysis of the clipper chip announcement reveals that is not likely to remain voluntary for very long the cost of the system the cost of generating and then storing the escrow keys and the admitted security holes pretty much make the clipperphone a loser strong crypto will outcompete it if strong crypto is allowed this is the battle we face we had rumblings of this totalitarian key registration thing a while back and now the other shoe has dropped the firestorm of commentary and criticism this time around reveals the almost immediate revulsion this wiretap chip and automatic caller id and callee id don t forget generates in everyone or almost everyone who hears about it this is a battle we can t afford to lose tim may timothy c may crypto anarchy encryption digital money tcmay netcom com anonymous networks digital pseudonyms zero knowledge reputations information markets w a s t e aptos ca black markets collapse of governments higher power public key pgp and mailsafe available
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful restated and amplified in article apr lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger writes you obviously haven t read the information about the system the chips put out serial number infomation into the cypher stream to allow themselves to be identified the system does not rely on registering people as owning particular phone units i am against the proposal but lets be accurate in our objections do not presume to tell me what i have and have not read the system may not rely upon registering people as owning particular phone units but it is necessary to know which phone units are likely to be used for some suspected criminal communication before you can obtain their unit keys from escrow this necessity raises the stakes in favor of a criminal s coercing or colluding use of some other person s clipper phone i will restate my assumptions more explicitly and amplify my argument the original title perhaps should have been distinction between legal and illegal cipher systems considered harmful but clipper considered harmful is not inaccurate and is more eye catching in the current context assumptions clipper is made available laws are passed to make use of cipher systems other than clipper illegal either on radio systems or on any common carrier system these laws also include enforcement authority to listen across the relevant radio spectrum or other medium characterize signals validate clipper wrappers detect probable use of non clipper ciphers and make such detection a cause for further action for escrowed keys to be useful some specific clipper chip must be associated with a suspected criminal this means that at a minimum some association between the common carrier s unique phone id esn and the clipper chip serial number n will be stored in a government database an observed pairing of n and esn other than the one recorded raises a red flag to reduce ordinary fraud the cellphone system which offers clipper will also be constructed with an esn mechanism much more tamper proof and much less spoofable than today s cellphones criminals want inscrutable communications some criminals are not entirely stupid or ignorant and will figure out both that clipper cellphones offer excellent security in normal circumstances and that they offer no security against law enforcement once a presumably legitimate wiretap order exists they will also figure out that the wiretap order must necessarily be against a specific cellphone because each one has a unique unit key criminals do not want to call attention to themselves because they are not stupid or ignorant or because they read netnews and because they know that their open use of a non clipper cipher is likely to be detected they will generally avoid using non clipper ciphers directly on some monitorable tappable channel they know that do so would raise a red flag putting a given cellphone if not a given person under immediate suspicion it is impractical to reverse engineer skipjack discover family key f and construct a functional clone of a clipper chip by and it will be very difficult to spoof a given clipper phone without immediate detection because it is difficult to obscure one s association to a specific phone by reprogramming or changing chips around the criminal will be motivated to find an intact phone which is associated with someone else a non stupid criminal will conclude that they can have clipper secure communications at least for some limited time t if they buy beg borrow or steal use of someone s phone in a way that prevents that person from reporting compromise of the phone for at least time t the encrypted communications might have been recorded and thus be retrievable later but the criminal can delay and quite likely evade discovery by destroying or abandoning the phone before t elapses it would be unusual for an innocent person to volunteer use of their clipper phone to someone else the honest subscriber doesn t want to pay someone else s bill and he doesn t want to fall under suspicion this leaves two sources of clipper phones for criminal use coercion and collusion coercion first theft bears a relatively low risk but also sometimes a low time until detection a few minutes if a phone is stolen from a car parked in front of a store a couple of weeks if a phone is stolen from someone who is away on vacation criminal commerce is likely to arise in stolen clipper phones with phones coming from risk inured poor criminals and cash coming from risk averse wealthy criminals someone who is extraordinarily motivated to gain a day or two of undetected communication like a terrorist could kill a person or hold them hostage the limited time before detection that a coerced phone is useful means that continuing criminal enterprises require a continuing supply of freshly coerced phones there would also be created a collusive commerce between relatively wealthy criminals and ignorant or don t care patsies who need money and who will submit to being paid in return for subscribing to clipper phone service for someone else s use criminals will learn that it is more to their advantage to coerce use of a clipper cellphone than it is to apply a non clipper cipher to a normal cellphone they will call much less attention to themselves or at least to their stolen phone this way the fact of a phone s use being coerced must first be reported before it can be identified as an interesting phone and have its keys obtained from escrow clipper also allows an extraordinary opportunity for the criminal to conceal use of super encryption an automated full system surveillance mechanism quite feasible across radio bandwidth which knows family key f can validate clipper wrappers and n esn associations but it cannot reveal in realtime the use of super encryption unless it knows all unit keys which we are being assured are only to be made available in two separate pieces upon specific wiretap like order whereas a criminal s use of any cipher within a normally cleartext medium would stand out a criminal s use of a non clipper cipher within a clipper medium would be very difficult to detect even ex post facto in bulk recordings as long as the association between criminal and specific clipper chip is fractured if you make use of this other cipher illegal per se then you can charge the criminal with this if you can identify the true criminal he ll be using someone else s phone but you ll have no evidence to help you against whatever traditional crime he might have been planning you will not even be able to detect that unusual encrypted communications are occurring until you identify specific phones and obtain their keys from escrow the gangster and terrorist are thus arguably more not less secure than they were before clipper came along i therefore consider clipper harmful because it does not provide absolute privacy to the honest public against aggressive or dishonest government if other ciphers are proscribed it engenders new types of direct criminal threat to the honest public it provides an extraordinarily effective mechanism for criminals to hide their use of some other cipher making it more difficult than ever even to gain notice that unusual communications are occurring and that plans for some criminal act might be in progress if other ciphers are proscribed lazy investigators and prosecutors are more likely to pursue the easily quantifiable cipher use crime than they are the traditional and directly harmful crimes which key escrow is claimed to help against if other ciphers are proscribed the stage is set for witch hunting of illegal cipher use because any computer can be used as a cipher machine brad yearwood brad optilink com uunet pyramid optilink brad petaluma ca
sci.crypt	clipper serial numbers need nd court order something that no one has discussed yet or i missed it the fbi sets up a wiretap after the court order was handed only at this point they can access the line and detect the serial number n what happens next does the fbi simply asks for the keys for n and since a warrant was issued for the line the fbi simply gets it what if multiple phones are used from the same house the fbi just asks for n n etc exactly who is to prevent the fbi from claiming some other serial number x was also used over the wirtapped line and get the keys for x either a second court order for the specific serial key is required and i have seen no indication of this or the fbi can effectively ask for any pair of keys at any time so the escrow key holders are a total fake an unrelated issue if and when all phones always use the clipper chip how are call transfers going to take place michael golan mg cs princeton edu
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow nonsense i wasn t asked if larry o brien should trust nixon with his keys but whether i would well that explains it the government has no real need to spy on people who already love big brother it s the people who are inclined to talk back who need to be watched
sci.crypt	re new encryption algorithm well actually this one s easy it s their job the nsa is supposed to develop cryptosystems if the government chooses to go ahead and sell those cryptosystems to the masses so be it ah but developing cryptosystems which are specificially designed to protect the government s domestic spying capabilities takes them beyond that mandate into the forbidden field of domestic wiretapping
sci.crypt	re suggestions for escrow agencies was re more technical details on the contrary the entire clipper proposal is an example of the government servicing the people in the sense of the term found in the sentence the farmer paid to rent a bull to service his cows
sci.crypt	re key registering bodies in article naglec w e hl netcom com nagle netcom com john nagle writes since the law requires that wiretaps be requested by the executive branch and approved by the judicial branch it seems clear that one of the key registering bodies should be under the control of the judicial branch i suggest the supreme court or regionally the courts of appeal more specifically the offices of their clerks i ve got a better idea we give one set to the kgb c o washington embassy and the other set to the red chinese g
sci.crypt	re clipper chip and crypto key esc in article apr memex co uk peter memex co uk writes i thought it was quite difficult to record a modem session at some intermediate point on the line maybe they have taken a crash course in data comms and have a unit that demodulates the tones and stores the digital stream for decryption later this would still suffer from the called babt it has been stated either here or in the uk telecom group that they will not approve equipment that does encryption i don t know if this is true or not but this would make a good test case peter ilieve peter memex co uk you forget the obvious if it is an authorised tap then it can be done at the exchange if the exchange is digital then i suspect that you can auto monitor a line and pickup the full link therefore syncing a piggyback modem on the line would not be impossible i suspect mike h mike avon demon co uk
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more i don t think mr clinton can even understand the technical details of the clipper encryption scheme so his assurances are of no value at al if he gives them he just says what a panel of experts told him if i lived in the usa i would hope those experts were not paid by the fill here you favorite letter combination the doctrine of plausible deniability no one is going to tell him it has a back door the nsa will assume he has the sense to work it out for himself or they wouldn t be pushing it clinton might even believe the nsa when they tell him for the record it doesn t have a back door and no foia request in the world will ever find it these guys don t play by that set of rules they have their own rule book and no you re not allowed to see that either g
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han writes can people work within the system before trying to break it examine your history books and find out how many armed revolutions led to democratic or democratic style governments i think you ll only find one in over five thousand years of written history that s not very good odds i may be misreading you here are you saying the american revolution wasn t a good idea because it was bad odds i kind of doubt that any revolution armed or otherwise was ever started without vast amounts of failed working within a system a good sign of a system being not worth preserving would probably be that very inability to work within it productively hopefully i ve misunderstood btw i m not a big fan of arms myself
sci.crypt	re revised technical summary of clipper chip in article apr guvax acc georgetown edu denning guvax acc georgetown edu writes each chip includes the following components the skipjack encryption algorithm f an bit family key that is common to all chips n a bit serial number this length is subject to change u an bit secret key that unlocks all messages encrypted with the chip to see how the chip is used imagine that it is embedded in the at t telephone security device as it will be suppose i call someone and we both have such a device after pushing a button to start a secure conversation my security device will negotiate an bit session key k with the device at the other end this key negotiation takes place without the clipper chip in general any method of key exchange can be used such as the diffie hellman public key distribution method once the session key k is established the clipper chip is used to encrypt the conversation or message stream m digitized voice the telephone security device feeds k and m into the chip to produce two values e m k the encrypted message stream and e e k u n f a law enforcement field which are transmitted over the telephone line the law enforcement field thus contains the session key k encrypted under the unit key u concatenated with the serial number n all encrypted under the family key f the law enforcement field is decrypted by law enforcement after an authorized wiretap has been installed is the u used in the law enforcement field from the phone which placed the call from the unit whose start secure session button was pressed first or does each phone transmit its own law enforcement field even assuming one of the first two choices the fbi is going to get a fresh n u for its own database about every other phone call eventually accumulating keys for all the phones used to connect to the line they are monitoring not just the suspects key assuming the ever thrifty fbi doesn t forget each key after its wiretap permission has expired not quite a pyramid but not bad either carl ijames ijames helix nih gov more worried every day
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr leland stanford edu arc leland stanford edu andrew richard conway writes of course don t over react but don t under react better yet act john john w luther anybody who mistakes my jluther cs umr edu best for email opinions for umr s just compuserve com doesn t know umr
sci.crypt	re the escrow database and the fox has rabies too dave feustel n myi feustel netcom com sig being revised
sci.crypt	re wiretapping reality today begin pgp signed message in article strnlghtc wkh x netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes the number of court ordered wire taps is pretty low law enforcement has to present pretty good evidence to get even that limited number of authorizations thus the overwhelming majority of conversations are neither tapped nor recorded by the government and for that to happen they have to a have a pretty good reason with evidence b use this sparingly on highest priority pretty good reasons david given the proposition of the first first paragraph the conclusion of the second should read thus the overwhelming majority of conversations are neither tapped nor recorded legally by the government which completely overturns your argument to not see this requires an unbelievable degree of stupidity or naivete on your part perhaps it s time for you to own up and say which spook agency you work for paul
sci.crypt	re is this overreaction good points in addition i would point out that now is one of the best times to fight this political battle with much of the opposition in disarray an fbi director sessions on his way out an attorney general reno who has only been in long enough to find the office coffee machine two tries out of three and between slow confirmations and clinton s saturday night massacre hasn t much of a staff in place if we really get lucky both of the above will be too busy trying to keep their feet from being held to the waco fire to spend much effort insisting on their alleged right to spy on the american people i swear to you we aren t finished yet james t kirk st iii
sci.crypt	trademark violation claimed forwarded from libernet dartmouth edu date tue apr pdt from ald clipper clipper ingr com al date subject clipper chip not to libernet dartmouth edu clipper tm chip is a registered trademark of intergraph corp the so called clipper chip which was recently mentioned here and in other media with respect to encryption is being used in violation of that trademark the intergraph clipper chip is a unix microprocessor originally developed by fairchild semiconductors and has no relationship to the encryption chip whatsoever i mention this here with the hope that someone reading this will intercede before the group alt privacy clipper is established al date
sci.crypt	re encryption chip availibility in article ofpppcs iuy k mr andrew cmu edu stephen j ludwick sl b andrew cmu edu says hi everybody does anyone know of companies that are currently manufacturing encryption chips for sale to the general public get them while you can some pointers would be greatly appreciated thanks steve i believe fisher sp international makers of the watchdog tm pc security package offers a hardware implementation of des as an add on to that package
sci.crypt	jerry berman on pseudonymous privacy hello all i thought you all might like to see this it s a letter from jerry berman to david chaum from november of in response to information that mr chaum sent to mr berman while i have to congratulate eff for its prompt response to the clipper chip announcement from the white house i think it s important to recognize the philosophy of their executive director as explained below i agree that legal remedies are important but when pressed i d prefer to retain the ability to use purely technical solutions to preserve my privacy because they ll hold up under fire mr chaum has consented to the publication of this letter on the net i don t work for nor am i a member of eff aclu or any similar organizations but i do agree with them on a great many things aristophanes american civil liberties union washington office maryland avenue ne november washington dc national headquarters mr david chaum west rd street centre for mathematics and computer science new york ny p o box o ab amsterdam norman dorsen president dear mr chaum ira glasser executive director eleanor holmes norton chair national advisory council thank you for sending me a most interesting article a society of individuals and organizations that would expend the time and resources to use a series of digital pseudonyms to avoid data linkage does not in my opinion make big brother obsolete but acts on the assumption that big brother is ever present i view your system as a form of societal paranoia as a matter of principle we are working to enact formal legal protections for individual privacy rather than relying on technical solutions we want to assume a society of law which respects legal limits rather than a society that will disobey the law requiring citizens to depend on technical solutions e g require a judical warrant for government interception of data communications rather than encrypt all messages on the assumption that regardless of the lawt the government will abuse its power and invade privacy as a matter of practicality i do not think your system offers much hope for privacy first the trend toward universal identifiers is as much a movement generated by government or industry s desire to keep track of all citizens as it is by citizens seeking simplicity and convenience in all transactions at best your system would benefit the sophisticated and most would opt for simplicity the poor and the undereducated would never use or benefit from it finally where there s a will there s a way if government wants to link data bases it will by law require the disclosure of various individual pseudonyms used by citizens or prohibit it for data bases which the government wants to link since corporations make money by trading commercial lists with one another they will never adopt the system or if it is adopted will use fine printn contracts to permit selling various codes used by their customers to other firms the solution remains law policy and consensus about limits on government or corporate intrusion into areas of individual autonomy technique can be used to enforce that consensus or to override it it cannot be used as a substitute for such consensus sincerely yours sig jerry j berman chief legislative counsel direrector aclu privacy technology project cc john shattuck
sci.crypt	information on mathematics of cryptography followup i posted an informational request about any electronically available articles on cryptographic algorithms a couple of days ago as i mentioned i was interested in particular in des and public key but also wouldn t mind learning about others as i said i can read an intro graduate level text book having had some mathematics though not much number theory per se i d like to see the technical details of the mathematics of cryptography as oppossed to the popularizations of things like scientific am which just say then you find a really big prime number following my request several people were so kind as to suggest reading lists which i hope to get around to two other people were so very kind as to send large documents which i presume were actual articles about lines each but i ve stupidly deleted them accidentally before having a chance even to skim them if they can forgive me for my careless use of file commands would the original senders be so kind as to resend or anyone else who has good crypto articles at a fairly technical mathematical level also ftp able or gopher able docs would be nice to know about yours lulu this message was brought to you by postmodern enterprises quilty philos umass edu the opinions expressed here must be those of my employer surely you don t think that i believe them
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip ag russell arussell austin ibm com wrote at the company i worked for previously i received a file that was des encryped and the person that had sent it went on vaction rather than wait two weeks i set up a straight frontal attack with one key at a time it only took two days to crack the file no i don t have any faith in des then it was either really good luck or you had some very fast machine des has possible keys each two of which are simply to convert into each other so you have to expect trial encryptions in the mean case assuming known plaintext is ca so you must have managed to do encryptions per microsecond ce infosys builds a very fast des chip that manages encryptions per microsecond yes i m not very seriously bothered about the security of des yet though you might prefer to use triple des or idea both of which use more key bits joerg joerg czeranski email czeranski rz tu clausthal de osteroeder strasse smtp injc w clausthal zellerfeld voice at work germany voice at home to obtain pgp public key finger injc sun rz tu clausthal de or email me
sci.crypt	rush limbaugh s address oops from before i think this didn t get posted before i ve been reading usenet for the longest time but never had much interest in posting until recently this is what i typed before i have written mr limbaugh before and i loathe to use the name rush in association with him because he is unworthy to have a name in common with some of the greatest musicians in our time the band rush his address as some of you wanted is compuserve com he has been to wrapped up in himself to respond to me but maybe some of you will have better luck bye g bye for now i tree i a k a andy novak anovak titan ucs umass edu anovak twain ucs umass edu g bye for now i tree i a k a andy novak anovak titan ucs umass edu anovak twain ucs umass edu
sci.crypt	re jerry berman on pseudonymous privacy nobody alumni cco caltech edu correctly states jerry berman s view on privacy but he mistakenly assumes that this represents berman s view as eff executive director as one of the people who convinced jerry that legal protections for privacy are insufficient and that technical measures especially public key cryptography are also vitally necessary i can tell you that jerry and eff are fully committed to this position the previous poster is apparently unaware of a long series of eff positions in support of this view i suggest those interested read eff s position on clipper or our other work in digital privacy check ftp eff org for more details one of the great things about human beings is that they are capable of change and evolution in their thinking the idea that crypto is critical to privacy is one which is no longer limited to certain net afficianados but is spreading to parts of the public policy community in washington mitch kapor co founder eff
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful in article bb f c mizzou missouri edu c mizzou missouri edu john kelsey writes the clipper chip s user key is formed by r e d e n s s s r e d e n s s s r e d e n s s s why is the triple encrytion used is it just to gain an effective increase in keyspace to defeat a potential keysearch if so why use bit keys not knowing anything about the skipjack algorithm it s not really possible to guess whether this makes it harder or easier to guess s s why are n n and n formed as they are it would be facinating to see the skipjack algorithm to look for ways of attacking it that require three ciphertext blocks formed in that odd way where do the bit constant values that are concatenated with the serial number to form n n n come from are they changed from chip to chip or session to session even if they re published in the ny times if skipjack is resistant to known plaintext attacks when using triple encryption then there s no break in security but why allow that kind of weird format if those three bit values are truly random bits then maybe it s used to ensure that a known plaintext attack on skipjack if it exists can t be easily used to derive s and s for a whole production run of these chips i can t answer all our questions in detail but i can take a stab at them the form the operations that compute r r and r is of course the famous triple encryption suggested for use with des it s much stronger than a single encryption and has an effective key length of bits for reasons that were discussed when des was first standardized a simple double encryption would not have the same strength triple encryption has been used by ibm since more or less the beginning to encrypt other keys it s recommended for anything of very high value and i think we can agree that the r i and s i fit that description why n n and n well you need different plaintext values i have no idea if they ll be disclosed or not at a guess they re constructed so that they differ in as many bit positions as possible a goo cryptosystem will scramble things a lot with even a bit change but the values of n in a series will have fairly similar bit patterns and there might conceivably be a weakness so the n i values are and i m guessing chosen to increase the hamming distance in any event i m quite convinced that one cannot go back to the s i from the u i let alone u observe if the nsa has u they don t need to find s i but even if they do they can t get u and u in theory they should never even see those values even with a warrant the real question i think is why use this scheme at all as opposed to a hardware random number generator my answer is that this is much more verifiable look suppose that nsa nist the aclu the eff and the nra combined to build a really good random number generator and that it passed every test you could think of when you come back next week to program some more chips does it still work that well have any components changed in value have the components been changed out from under you does it still work well the in the presence of a focused microwave beam that tends to bias it towards selecting bits yes you can run detailed statistical tests on it again but that s hard consider on the other hand a software solution you bring your own floppies with you you can run cryptographic checksums etc it s a lot easier to verify that the software is unchanged in other words yes i can think of ways to cheat software too i think that they re a lot harder there are three issues with clipper the first is whether or not the architecture of the whole scheme is capable of working my answer with one significant exception is yes i really do think that nsa and nist have designed this scheme about as well as can be assuming that their real objectives are as stated to permit wiretapping under certain carefully controlled circumstances with a minimum risk of abuse the exception is that u exists outside of the chip on a programming diskette that s seriously wrong u and u should be loaded onto the chip separately to those who disagree and i don t claim my answer is obvious though i found my own reasoning sufficiently persuasive that i was forced to rewrite the conclusions section of my technical analysis paper i had originally blasted the scheme i issue this invitation assume that you were charged with implementing such a system with complete regard for civil rights and due process what would you do differently in answering this question please accept nsa s fundamental assumptions that both strong cryptography against outsiders and the ability to wiretap some domestic users is necessary if you feel it necessary to challenge those assumptions do it in the context of the last issue i present below right here i m discussing just the technical aspects and no i don t by any means claim that just because something can be done it should be the second issue is whether or not this whole architecture is actually going to be used just because clipper chips are made this way doesn t mean that that s the only way they ll be made maybe the nsa will substitute its own chips between the programming facility and the shipping dock and they ll generate bogus warrant requests so that the escrow agents don t wonder why they ve never called sorry guys all them terrorists and drug dealers and pedophiles seem to have bought triple des phones instead who d a thunk it i have no answer to this question and at the moment i don t see a way of answering it those concerns are part of my reasoning in my answer to the final question below the third and most serious issue is whether or not clipper is a good idea even if carried out strictly according to the letter of the law i think that the answer is no but it s not a no brainer i m a civil libertarian not a libertarian for reasons that i explained at great length on the net in the elder days and that i don t have the energy to repeat now but that means that i m willing to accept that some laws are necessary so long as they respect the essential rights of individuals the government already has the ability and in our system the right to issue search warrants and while that power has certainly been abused it s also been used quite properly and fairly in other cases is key escrow sufficiently different i think so but again it s not an easy question for me it is easy for libertarians to answer of course since clipper is completely alien to much of the rest of their oft admirable philosophy and it s also easy for those who give their unreserved trust to government a group i m much more distant from steve bellovin
sci.crypt	re s s in article r ue access digex net steve b access digex com writes the only theory that makes any sense is that s and s are either the same for all chips or vary among very few possibilities so that anyone trying to break the encryption by brute force need only plow through the possible serial numbers about one billion multiplied by the number of different s s combinations iff the phones transmit their serial nos as part of the message then what is to say that each phone can take that serial number and use it to generate the required key
sci.crypt	re once they get your keys in article dockmaster ncsc mil grant dockmaster ncsc mil lynn r grant writes about people so far have asked once the fbi gets your clipper keys won t they be able to read all your future and past traffic there has been no response from nist nsa ms denning mr hellman or anyone else who might be able to give us an authoritative answer this is troubling didn t nsa think about this or is it a feature and they thought we wouldn t notice i would have thought that by now they would have responded with something of the form well that won t be a problem because don alvarez posted a good partial solution to this problem to comp risks i ll present my variant on it instead since i feel it s a bit stronger against some likely attempts to cheat depends on the protocol that s followed for reading traffic briefly the cops get a wiretap warrant and record the call they then notice the encryption and the disclosure header it along with a copy of their warrant is sent to the fbi or whoever it is who holds the family key the f holder decrypts the header and sends the serial number n and the encrypted session key u k to the escrow agents they in turn use u and u to recover k and send that to the local police note how this solves the problem of wiretapping forever neither the cops nor the fbi ever see u so they can t read other traffic every request must be validated by both the fbi and the escrow agents the cops and the fbi together can t cheat since they don t have u i regard that as a likely pairing of folks who might try to beat the system it s to prevent this that i modified alvarez s scheme the escrow agents can t read the conversation since they don t have it all they have is n and u k and the police don t even see n it s harder to see how to block decryption of old warrantless wiretaps there is one protection you have to persuade the escrow agents that the call is current but that s not nearly as strong there are approaches i can see that might work involving sequences of data on an unalterable medium complete with cryptographic protection against insertion onto a new medium but i don t have anything yet that isn t too complex for comfort or too hard to install in the real world the nsa might have an answer they may or may not be smarter than me but i ve been working on this for a week and they ve had years
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful restated and amplified brad yearwood posts a long response to the issue of registering a phone clipper relationship it doesn t wash recall that law enforcement gets a court order to tap a suspect s phone calls they do what they do now figure out which lines to tap they then record the stuff if it s clipper they read the law enforcement block extract the serial number and get the keys using the court order no new difficulties such as using someone else s phone instrument or phone line are introduced that wouldn t have existed absent clipper if the crooks were going to use a pay phone say they could have done so without clipper if the government figures out they re so doing they listen in and if it s a clipper conversation they get the serial number and then the keys if the crooks use an innocent person s clipper phone on the tapped line there s no problem the feds don t care whose phone instrument is used just that the conversation is by the suspect on the tapped line they get the serial number get the keys and they are in business no clipper chip to person association is ever needed david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow in article rae b j access digex net steve b access digex com steve brinich writes nonsense i wasn t asked if larry o brien should trust nixon with his keys but whether i would well that explains it the government has no real need to spy on people who already love big brother it s the people who are inclined to talk back who need to be watched though i think this an overstatement it does contain a grain of truth it s drug dealers spies terrorists and organized crime figures assuming enough probable cause to convince a judge who need to be watched not law abiding citizens david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	back doors in clipper i think it very unlikely there are back doors in clipper for two reasons the government doesn t need them if it can get the key and yes i assume that the official government obeys court orders etc and that the design of the chip and its approval were official it would defeat the whole purpose of providing secure crypto for american business that couldn t be read by our economic adversaries if this were not a legitimate and genuine purpose and as many think the nsa can read des why bother otherwise rational responses preferred to conspiracy theories thanks david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re clipper serial numbers need nd court order in article apr princeton edu mg cs princeton edu michael golan writes something that no one has discussed yet or i missed it the fbi sets up a wiretap after the court order was handed only at this point they can access the line and detect the serial number n what happens next does the fbi simply asks for the keys for n and since a warrant was issued for the line the fbi simply gets it what if multiple phones are used from the same house the fbi just asks for n n etc exactly who is to prevent the fbi from claiming some other serial number x was also used over the wirtapped line and get the keys for x either a second court order for the specific serial key is required and i have seen no indication of this or the fbi can effectively ask for any pair of keys at any time so the escrow key holders are a total fake two safeguards the fbi could be asked to produce the law enforcement block to the escrow agencies and associate it with a particular court order if the thing comes to trial the defense attorneys can probe this issue closely it is not too different from proving that the speaker on a legal wiretap is the person the court order covered putting it another way this question is not very different from the pre clipper question what s to prevent the fbi from getting a court order to tap al capone and then using it to tap jonathan livingstone seagull instead david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re once they get your keys in article tcmayc z ye f netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy c may writes alt security clipper added to keep them informed of this issue david sternlight strnlght netcom com wrote the proposal could be modified so that if they get a court order to tap you and don t charge you with a crime within say days they have to buy you a new phone if they do charge you and you are found innocent they have to buy you a new phone yes but will they buy you a ticket on a time machine to allow you to go back and use the phone with the new key instead of the phone whose key they obtained it is unclear whether obtaining the key at time also unlocks messages recorded by whomever at earlier times the announcement was silent on this the betting seems to be that once your key has been obtained by the authorities by divorce lawyers by the mafia by the fbi by lost or stolen backup tapes by the nsa etc all previous conversations are unsecure session keys are negotiated but knowing the private key is believed by many commentators here to break the security no doubt more details will emerge doesn t matter if we assume they are obeying the law since they won t have had a court order to tap calls prior to the date of the court order and thus won t have them available if they aren t obeying the law we are in an entirely different discussion in which this is the least of one s worries david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re once they get your keys in article dockmaster ncsc mil grant dockmaster ncsc mil lynn r grant writes about people so far have asked once the fbi gets your clipper keys won t they be able to read all your future and past traffic there has been no response from nist nsa ms denning mr hellman or anyone else who might be able to give us an authoritative answer this is troubling it was implied in the first technical posting by dorothy denning that the fbi would do the decryption for the law enforcement agencies it wasn t clear to me from the post whether this would be done in realtime or not or whether the fbi would just decrypt the session keys for the locals or would do the whole message one thing i m a bit puzzled by why aren t they doing this with a public key scheme of some sort you could generate two uniqe public private pairsor for each chip then escrow the private keys with the escrow agencies set the protocol up to encrypt the session key with both public keys to decrypt a message both escrow agencies in the right order for most pk schemes have to decrypt with the escrowed private key this way there wouldn t be thecconcern that once the police had asked fo a warrant wiretap they would have your key forver john kelsey
sci.crypt	re what would happen if export restrictions violated in article apr yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes at this point what kind of trouble could i get into if i ignored the itar and sold my program to international customers anyway i m not sure it has been established that the government can prevent you from sending an algorithm abroad the nsa seems to have won by intimidation so far why don t you try it of course you could just distribute your algorithm widely for free and screw them up big time that would be my approach smg
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in article fplpdh bwwbedwenj transarc com lyle seaman transarc com writes jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han writes somebody asked me what was wrong about overreacting in cases such as this that was probably me i meant only that nobody has overreacted yet it seemed to me that jerry was suggesting that people are currently overreacting and i vehemently disagree i see a lot of talk but not much action i see now that i misunderstood jerry s position the reason is very simple how many people do you want to die in a riot in a new civil war everybody is jumping up and down and screaming about it and i m worried that people are going to reach for their hammers and rifles before their pens and paper not this bunch they ll just bitch on the net for a while and then go back to lurking can people work within the system before trying to break it examine your history books and find out how many armed revolutions led to democratic or democratic style governments i think you ll only find one in over five thousand years of written history actually it s not quite that bad but it s close i think everyone would just as soon work within the system the presence of the possibility of using the bullet box instead of the ballot box is supposed to be a deterrent by keeping the price of massive abuse unacceptable however governments being what they are sure would like to remove that deterrence which will make the need for armed citizens all the more great you don t need em till you don t have em then i think we can be more accurately called subjects instead of citizens the idea of the people being sovereign over the government is sure not in vogue in the beltway these days that is for sure the administration is saying we know best we will tell you what you need or don t need after that old fashioned anachronism called the bill of rights is not needed in these enlightened times look we collectively have the power to throw the bums out but we don t use it we clearly don t need to go burning things down but we not if the government has its way there are eight bills before congress that will either ban tax exhorbitantly or register all useful weapons in the hands of the unconnected us subject can you say just for a box of cartridges for practice one of the current administrations top priority items is to disarm all who are not well connected or that work for the government clearly do need to throw at least some of the bums out unfortunately the bums have learned to target only small groups of people at a single time so the masses won t react and throw them out eventually the masses will react unless the bums cease their relentless encroachment on liberty and despoilment of the economy the sooner it happens the less the damages will be i don t want to live in a war zone either i want to see the bums thrown out before they do some real damage another tactic is to toss out so many outrages at once that nobody can give justice to them all like is being done right now lyle transarc grant street the gulf tower pittsburgh pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful steve bellovin writes a well thought out and nearly persuasive article about why the clipper are we still calling it clipper today or have they figured out a non infringing word yet protocol is almost as good as one can do given their marching ordes in article apr ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes i issue this invitation assume that you were charged with implementing such a system with complete regard for civil rights and due process what would you do differently in answering this question please accept nsa s fundamental assumptions that both strong cryptography against outsiders and the ability to wiretap some domestic users is necessary i ll accept the second assumption only for the sake of argument in my view the primary remaining flaw is that the encryption algorithm is secret leading to suspicion that there is a back door without complete disclosure this suspicion cannot be dispelled no matter how many trusted experts are allowed to look at it in isolation is it possible to do this whole thing with a public algorithm the only concern i ve seen with making skipjack public is that someone could build clipperphones without registering the keys assume f can really be kept secret as the government assumes then as part of the initial connection a clipperphone executes a protocol with the pseudophone to demonstrate that they both know f for example the initiating phone picks a number q and sends e q f the receiver sends back e q f and the initiator sends back e q f to demonstrate that her first packet wasn t just a random bit block repeat in the opposite direction with another q so it can t be defeated by somebody building up a library of sequential numbers by remembering responses and using those responses as the initial numbers of subsequent challenges this way clipperphones will talk only to other clipperphones of course the pseudo company can build their own proprietary skipjack phone but the presidential fact sheet implies that they won t get approval for it without equivalent key escrow what s wrong with this picture it depends of f staying secret and on skipjack being resistant to cryptanalysis but the government appears to believe in both of these even if the particular q a i suggest has some flaw i imagine there s a zero knowledge proof protocol that doesn t smb says the third and most serious issue is whether or not clipper is a good idea even if carried out strictly according to the letter of the law agreed my view and you can quote me if it s not worth doing it s not worth doing well jim gillogly hevensday thrimidge s r
sci.crypt	how to escrow if escrowing were ok there is a description of something called a fair crypto system in the may issue of byte p attributed to mit professor silvio micali the way it works is as follows you generate your private key s and break it up into pieces s s s s and s such that s s s mod p s you give each piece s s etc to a different escrow agency the agencies each compute g sn mod p and forward the result to the public key telephone book keeper the public key telephone book keeper multiplies all the g sn mod p reduces the result to mod p and this will be the user s public key now if there were several hundered recognized escrow agencies and the user could give a piece of the key to each of the ones he trusted the result would be something of an improvement over the proposed clipper system i still don t think key escrow is a good idea for both philosophical and security reasons but i do offer this suggestion simply to determine whether escrow advocates are at all interested in considering alternatives in good faith or whether the goal is to insure the use of only two agencies selected for spinelessness in the face of official requests
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful restated and amplified if the crooks use an innocent person s clipper phone on the tapped line there s no problem the feds don t care whose phone instrument is used just that the conversation is by the suspect on the tapped line they get the serial number get the keys and they are in business so you admit that clipper opens the doors wide for the following scenario feds we need the keys to joe blow s phone escrow agent joe blow you have a warrant to tap his line feds well no but we have a warrant to tap carlos slime devil gonzales line and our tap shows that mr gonzales is using mr blow s phone escrow agent well ok
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow though i think this an overstatement it does contain a grain of truth it s drug dealers spies terrorists and organized crime figures assuming enough probable cause to convince a judge who need to be watched not law abiding citizens don t tell me tell the feds they not i need to get a clue about this
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful restated and amplified if the crooks use an innocent person s clipper phone on the tapped line there s no problem the feds don t care whose phone instrument is used just that the conversation is by the suspect on the tapped line they get the serial number get the keys and they are in business no clipper chip to person association is ever needed yeah but who wants to start a pool on the first person arrested mistakenly and has their life turned upside down because some law enforcement agency does make a chip person association i wonder if there are any plans to keep these records e g encode the serial number into the upc scanned at k mart along with the credit card info voila at least your phone number tends to only locate to your house or whatever i e to be coming from your telephone number the person likely is in your house etc plus or minus some shenanigans of course but i d hate to think of these guys getting the clipper id recording the conversation then doing a quick cross lookup and your name comes up as owner of that id mistakenly maybe you sold the phone at a garage sale or the phone was stolen from your car or whatever they might only know who one side of the conversation is for example anyone who thinks the govt is forbidden by law to cross correlate such databases loses two points first law enforcement agencies can of course do this second they re only forbidden from budgeting any money for it the irs for example does do this anyhow they just don t spend any money on it so it s technically legal i guess instead they probably trade little favors with companies like mastercard if you re the irs i ll bet you have a lot of opportunities to trade favors with major corps for their databases i know an irs guy read an amazing list off to me from his screen i could hear him typing to pull up each screen once on the phone during a dispute i had with them to intimidate me actually not much of a dispute i didn t particularly disagree but for some reason this fellow wanted to play tough guy with me i hope he s better now amazing stuff he had at his finger tips be afraid barry shein software tool die bzs world std com uunet world bzs purveyors to the trade voice login wrld
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful restated and amplified strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes if the crooks use an innocent person s clipper phone on the tapped line there s no problem the feds don t care whose phone instrument is used just that the conversation is by the suspect on the tapped line they get the serial number get the keys and they are in business no clipper chip to person association is ever needed celular phones jon
sci.crypt	re once they get your keys in article tcmayc z ye f netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy c may writes it is unclear whether obtaining the key at time also unlocks messages recorded by whomever at earlier times the announcement was silent on this the betting seems to be that once your key has been obtained by the authorities by divorce lawyers by the mafia by the fbi by lost or stolen backup tapes by the nsa etc all previous conversations are unsecure session keys are negotiated but knowing the private key is believed by many commentators here to break the security no doubt more details will emerge it is completely clear you have to assume that each byte that was encrypted by this clipper chip has been compromised some people wondered why denning hellman and others did not respond when asked what would be done about such compromised phones or if compromise could not be restricted in time i did too let us just assume that a they do not know and b those who know don t tell and c they do not care it seem s to be an other person s problem gec instruments register only through things they re designed to register space still contains infinite unknowns pgp key id germano caronni caronni nessie cs id ethz ch fd ccf f da ea c dd f
sci.crypt	re do we need the clipper for cheap security pdc dcs ed ac uk paul crowley writes how fast do the fastest modems go the shannon limit for voice lines is likely somewhere around kbps we are rapidly approaching it the fastest affordable full duplex modems currently on the market are v bis which is bps how far can voice be compressed celp manages to sound decent at bps in theory if you built a speech recognition system that turned voice into ascii and a perfect synthesis system on the other end that sounded just like the person you were speaking to you could get it down to the information content of the speech with various kinds of lpc you can get it down to bps or prehaps even less at which point it sounds horrible bps is more than adequite for our purposes perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	re the secret source of that announcement in article c x xs ef lerami lerctr org merlin lerami lerctr org david hayes writes this company routinely sent most of the manufacturing data to the field offices the japanese had simply intercepted it so my friend the computer systems admin came up with a solution he started sending the data out double block encrypted with des two days after this new distribution plan was implemented the president of the company got a visit from a pair of government agents they told him to knock it off the president gave in since his company did a considerable business with the federal government now if the government wasn t monitoring the communications how would they even know that the encryption system was installed how can you be sure the two visitors were really government agents john john flanagan i believe in my theories johnf uhheph phys hawaii edu they give me a feeling of u of hawaii dept of physics astro security and they inflate correa rd honolulu hi my ego enormously a abian
sci.crypt	re tempest whughes lonestar utsa edu william w hughes writes hell just set up a spark jammer or some other very electrically noisy device as i ve noted you can likely get around that with a directional sensor phased array systems could completely defeat this scheme perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	clipper and conference calls just curious how would the clipper chip system handle conference calls
sci.crypt	wanted riverbank pub no i m looking for a copy of friedman s riverbank publication no methods for the solution of running key ciphers agean park press tells me that their publication c the riverbank publications volume is out of print can anyone snail mail me a photocopy of no if someone could it would be much appreciated regards john king kingj corp hp com
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only in article strnlghtc t d jn netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes some countries have laws about importing crypto gear i believe the u s does without a license the above scheme won t work at least not legally in such countries including at least france and the u s david bzzt wrong the us does not have crypto import laws derek derek atkins mit electrical engineering and computer science secretary mit student information processing board sipb mit media laboratory speech research group warlord mit edu pp asel n nwh
sci.crypt	re tempest in article apr lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger writes whughes lonestar utsa edu william w hughes writes hell just set up a spark jammer or some other very electrically noisy device as i ve noted you can likely get around that with a directional sensor phased array systems could completely defeat this scheme true but the basic idea behind any communications security system is not to absolutely deny access but to make access more expensive in time money manpower than it is worth remember waco who will the government decide to murder next maybe you opinions are mine i don t care if you blame the university or the state
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article strnlghtc who fk netcom com sci crypt alt security comp org ieee strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes maybe so but it s quite common there are millions of macintosh users who have no idea what s in apple s patented roms many have modems connected how do you know all your business secrets aren t being stolen answer because you trust apple because if any such attempt however sophicsticated came out it would destroy apple s credibility forever david neither or apply with the government though the feds unlike apple have repeatedly demonstrated that trust is an unsafe thread on which to hang your freedom why because unlike apple in the govt has no credibility to lose i m serious about this one can name just about any agency the irs rtc fcc faa fbi nsa cia and find numerous examples of the public trust run roughshod over worse one can rarely find in such examples any serious consequences to the offending agency even supposing we could get a reign on trust somehow there s always the matter of competence in govt agencies can they even trust themselves mel p s i was amused when you mentioned the usda as an example of an agency capable of managing the an escrow i m a consultant to the usda and while those i work with are wonderful grin the agency itself is ranked in industry publications such as govt computer news as one of the worst caretakers of its computer resources recently prime time live did a long segment on the usda s computer troubles they are making a concerted effort to change but intentions don t make a track record mel beckman internet mbeckman mbeckman com beckman software engineering compuserve ventura ca voice fax you can observe a lot just by watching yogi bera
sci.crypt	re fighting the clipper initiative in article strnlghtc toc kiu netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes er excuse me but since the escrow agencies aren t yet chosen how can you say they have a history of untrustworthy behavoir sic i m sure each of us can think of agencies without such a history price waterhouse has kept the secret of the academy awards for many years even in damn you re dead right that pretty much settles it not to worry john hesse a man jhesse netcom com a plan moss beach calif a canal bob
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful restated and amplified in article rcboi j a access digex net steve b access digex com steve brinich writes feds we need the keys to joe blow s phone escrow agent joe blow you have a warrant to tap his line feds well no but we have a warrant to tap carlos slime devil gonzales line and our tap shows that mr gonzales is using mr blow s phone escrow agent well ok no no no no no no no it will go like this feds we need the key to phone re d escrow you have a warrant to tap the line phone re d is on feds yes escrow fine here is our key what happens is feds tap a line find clipper is being used extract serial number get key decipher convo the serial number is never registered to a specific owner it is sent as part of the conversation if i give you my clipper phone you do not need to re register it mainly because it was never registered to me in the first place there are a lot of things that bother me about clipper but this is not one of them let s get our facts straight and not waste effort demolishing straw men ra rogue cs neu edu rogue agent sod the nsa is now funding research not only in cryptography but in all areas of advanced mathematics if you d like a circular describing these new research opportunities just pick up your phone call your mother and ask for one
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful in article wcs apr rainier att com wcs anchor ho att com bill stewart writes on the other hand i can easily see them recording the traffic for interesting people such as dissidents suspected criminals foreign telephone calls and anybody noticed using encryption as ken shiriff speculates recording encrypted traffic will probably be judged not to be an invasion of privacy pretty soon as i read the current wiretap law it would not be legal now on the other hand assuming a legislative change recording but not decrypting clipper conversations would probably be found constitutional by the supreme court using the same reasoning or the lack thereof by which they permit random roadblocks to check for drunk drivers incidentally if we use that as our model the court will likely not uphold selective recording on the other hand i don t think they ve thrown out drug courier profiles yet must be that exception to the fourth amendment that i can never find in my copy of the bill of rights a lot and i mean a lot will depend on exactly how clippertaps or tipperclaps for encrypted music are used don alvarez showed in the latest risks digest that it s possible to prevent the cops from reading traffic after their warrant expires that is the cops send the lef to the f holder the f holder strips off f and sends u k n to the escrow agents they send either u or k to the cops don says u i say k the cops can t use u in the future because they can t strip off f the f holder never sees u in don s model the escrow agents can t read the traffic because they don t have k in my model they have k but not the message itself and i trust that more because i think the cops and the fbi the f holder are more likely to collaborate on breaking the rules the net result is that by involving the f holder and the escrow agents on every tap we can avoid extending permission to tap
sci.crypt	re suggestions for escrow agencies was re more technical details in article strnlghtc ybka dp netcom com sci crypt alt privacy clipper strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes the easiest way is a user fee for each clipper chip manufactured this makes the funding separate from government it also has the neat side property that if the chip doesn t catch on the scheme breaks down and the government is back to the drawing boards assuming that they haven t prohibited alternatives in the meantime in fact maybe this should be part of the official system before the government is allowed to move this past the experimental stage they should have to demonstrate economic viability by mass adoption david while i disagree strongly with you on the issue of our trusting the government i think you have a good idea here there is danger that with funding coming from asset forfeitures the government could continue to promulgate a bad product in spite of poor acceptance making the product pay its way as it must for private ventures would be a good incentive for quality and listening to we the ranters mel mel beckman internet mbeckman mbeckman com beckman software engineering compuserve ventura ca voice fax you can observe a lot just by watching yogi bera
sci.crypt	re wiretapping reality today in article strnlghtc z ka b u netcom com sci crypt strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes you should read the history it was hoover who stopped nixon s cointelpro dead in its tracks because he said it was unconstitutional they tried to get around him every way they could unfortunately hoover thought himself above the constitution whatever he considered the limits others should obey he ruthlessly invaded the privacy of many private and public citizens mel mel beckman internet mbeckman mbeckman com beckman software engineering compuserve ventura ca voice fax you can observe a lot just by watching yogi bera
sci.crypt	re tempest in article apr ringer cs utsa edu whughes lonestar utsa edu william w hughes writes in article apr lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger writes whughes lonestar utsa edu william w hughes writes hell just set up a spark jammer or some other very electrically noisy device as i ve noted you can likely get around that with a directional sensor phased array systems could completely defeat this scheme true but the basic idea behind any communications security system is not to absolutely deny access but to make access more expensive in time money manpower than it is worth another idea use a laptop computer as mentioned earlier the lcd screen is a lot less noisy than a standard crt but since many laptops have power supplies that run at volts instead of they would be considerably quieter doug holland doug holland anyone who tries to take away my freedom holland cs colostate edu of speech will have to pry it from my pgp key available by e mail cold dead lips
sci.crypt	re clipper serial numbers need nd court order strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes two safeguards the fbi could be asked to produce the law enforcement block to the escrow agencies and associate it with a particular court order exactly what would that show the law enforcement block is easy to create given the government key and any serial number if the thing comes to trial the defense attorneys can probe this issue closely it is not too different from proving that the speaker on a legal wiretap is the person the court order covered if it comes to trail about the wiretap ya some safegaurd that is what if they just harass people as a result or learn things they shouldn t have learned etc putting it another way this question is not very different from the pre clipper question what s to prevent the fbi from getting a court order to tap al capone and then using it to tap jonathan livingstone seagull instead the whole point of the escrow system is to prevent the fbi from making illegal wiretaps why not have the fbi holds the keys and that s it why do we need the escrow system at all unless a rd party a judge verifies that the requested serial number is right and the fbi can get any key they like at anytime the escrow system is useless michael golan mg cs princeon edu
sci.crypt	re once they get your keys strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes the proposal could be modified so that if they get a court order to tap you and don t charge you with a crime within say days they have to buy you a new phone if they do charge you and you are found innocent they have to buy you a new phone yeah right and if the atf trashes your place on a bad tip they have to pay to repair it sure and if your computer equipment is confisticated in a raid they have to charge you with a crime within say days you re stretching the naivete bit on this one love two minds without a single thought philip barry
sci.crypt	re i have seen the lobby and it is us in article apr nynexst com rsilvers nynexst com robert silvers writes send something to rush linbaugh about clinton taking away our right to privacy and how if the govt standard takes off only people with lots of money drug dealers will be able to justify des stuff he will slam clinton for this on the air well lets for a hypothetical put our selves in the place of the us end of the drug rings what do we do about the cripple chip first off we would express disaproval to our congress critters and remind them of the large sums of money our legitimate co s provide to their campain coffers we would also let them know via the other channels that a their income is about to take a hit and b their health may not be too good either but just in case the next obvious step to take is to buy mycotoxic and vlsi yeah free enterprise at work now they have the cripple in their pockets literaly as well as figurativly tough about the masses though paul
sci.crypt	pgp where to get it i am both new to this news group and to the net i am facinated by the things i have heard about the pgp encryption program does anybody out there know where i might get a version of this program that runs under windows ms dos unix w source as of this writting i have no unix access and am running on a nifty windows implamentation of uucico thanks in advance jeff hupp internet jhupp shockwave win net medowglen apt ad contract programming novell houston texas network design and support voice the best govenment doesn t me
sci.crypt	dorothy denning opposes clipper capstone wiretap chips the security of the system should depend only on the secrecy of the keys and not on the secrecy of the algorithms dorothy denning jhart agora rain com
sci.crypt	re clipper and conference calls in article netnews upenn edu feeley cattell psych upenn edu wm michael feeley writes just curious how would the clipper chip system handle conference calls it s not clipper it s any encryption system i ve seen a number of designs they generally involve a multi line cleartext bridge
sci.crypt	re tempest in apr ringer cs utsa edu whughes lonestar utsa edu william w hughes writes hell just set up a spark jammer or some other very electrically noisy device or build an active farrady cage around the room with a noise signal piped into it while these measures will not totally mask the emissions of your equipment they will provide sufficient interference to make remote monitoring a chancy proposition at best there is of course the consideration that these measures may and almost cretainly will cause a certain amount of interference in your own systems it s a matter of balancing security versus convenience the problem is that this will also cause a certain amount of interference in all systems within the range of the device a long time ago i built a small jammer to dissuade my brother from using his radio alarm clock at something like am which had just enough range to cover my room and his however something powerful enough to mask all or at least most emissions from your computer equipment is also going to knock out half your neighbourhoods radio and tv reception this isn t going to make you many friends incidentally an older model trs makes a fine wideband jammer grin peter pgut cs aukuni ac nz p gutmann cs aukuni ac nz gutmann p kosmos wcc govt nz peterg kcbbs gen nz peter nacjack gen nz peter phlarnschlorpht nacjack gen nz in order of preference one of em s bound to work everything was so different before it all changed
sci.crypt	re crypto papers on the net in bb c mizzou missouri edu c mizzou missouri edu john kelsey writes i ve recently been reading a paper of merkle s publixhed only on the net i think discussing three potential replacements for des was anyting ever done with these are khufu khafre and or snefru still being discussed anywhere i know snefru is referenced in the rsa faq and i think it may also be in the sci crypt faq the paper was distributed against the wishes of the nsa i have a copy with a few illicit distribution footnotes scribbled on it and eventually published at one of the crypto conferences things were looking good then xerox patented the algorithms plonk i don t know of anything which uses them also khafre was broken at a later conference and from work on a related algorithm i don t think the existing khufu would hold up too well against a converted differential cryptanalysis attack although it can probably be changed to resist this type of attack peter in case you don t know what the plonk is about check the new hacker s dictionary it s the sound someone makes when they fall to the bottom of a killfile
sci.crypt	re clipper and conference calls in article apr ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes in article netnews upenn edu feeley cattell psych upenn edu wm michael feeley writes just curious how would the clipper chip system handle conference calls it s not clipper it s any encryption system i ve seen a number of designs they generally involve a multi line cleartext bridge depending on the encryption system so long as everyone has the same key it can be done for example i was using vat which is an internet audio tool for a conference call and we were encrypting the session unfortunately one site was doing more work and didn t have the cpu for it so it didn t sound all that good at a different site so you don t neccessarily have to have a clear text bridge but if you do its totally internal to one of the sites involved in the conversation derek derek atkins mit electrical engineering and computer science secretary mit student information processing board sipb mit media laboratory speech research group warlord mit edu pp asel n nwh
sci.crypt	re new encryption algorithm in article raeir be access digex net steve b access digex com steve brinich writes well actually this one s easy it s their job the nsa is supposed to develop cryptosystems if the government chooses to go ahead and sell those cryptosystems to the masses so be it ah but developing cryptosystems which are specificially designed to protect the government s domestic spying capabilities takes them beyond that mandate into the forbidden field of domestic wiretapping unlike the cia the nsa has no prohibition against domestic spying read bamford s the puzzle palace bruce
sci.crypt	re let s build software cryptophones for over the internet gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes i forwarded an old posting about celp speech compression i ve since been told that the source of this is on cygnus com in pub celp speech tar z i m not in a position to any sun tcp ip gurus out there who think they can marry this with netfone by the end of the week seriously i think someone with real net access and two sparcs could have this running by the end of the week then we ask the pgp guys to add a bytestream crypto filter two weeks at the most damn i wish i had my sparc back i m stuck on a mhz sx i tried this code yesterday on my sparcstation elc it takes over seconds to compress seconds worth of speech this means that it needs to be optimized by over a factor of before it will be usable in even a half duplex mode i question whether celp is the best approach for this application it produces great compression but at the expense of tremendous cpu loads we want something that can be run on ordinary workstations or even high end pc s without dsp cards my guess is that some other algorithm is going to be a better starting point hal finney
sci.crypt	re s s steve b access digex com steve brinich writes second question why why is such a strange procedure used and not a real rng this turns those s s in a kind of bottleneck for system security the only theory that makes any sense is that s and s are either the same for all chips or vary among very few possibilities so that anyone trying to break the encryption by brute force need only plow through the possible serial numbers about one billion multiplied by the number of different s s combinations my interpretation of denning s description is that s and s are chosen randomly by agents of the key escrow companies at the start of each chip programming session i imagine that the chips are in a carrier which will allow them all to be programmed fairly quickly there would not be a need to transfer chips one at a time into a little pla programmer as some people have envisioned my guess as to why this procedure is used is that basing the keys on the s and s using a specified algorithm provides an in principle checkable way to verify that no back doors exist in the choice of the random numbers used to generate the keys since we have to trust the escrow companies anyway it does not weaken the system to have the keys be generated from random seeds entered by the escrow agents and since the algorithm for key generation is public modulo skipjack secrecy then in principle an agent could challenge the procedure ask for s and s to be exposed and run his own independent calculation of u and u to verify that that is what is actually being put onto the floppies and yes there are many ways in which failures to follow this scheme could be hard to check the laptop probably will not really be destroyed each time hidden cameras in the ceiling could see the s and s entered by the trusted escrow agents back doors in the chip could allow u to be recovered heck each chip could be recorded with the same u ignoring what was on the floppy hal finney
sci.crypt	re what would happen if export restrictions violated in article apr yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes ok i heard a lot of talk about the nsa s infamous control over encryption export through the itar here s a question say i develop this great new encryption system and i want to sell my software worldwide the thought police then come in and say this algorithm is a threat to national security you will not be permitted to export it at this point what kind of trouble could i get into if i ignored the itar and sold my program to international customers anyway doug holland you would be arrested as an international arms trafficker bruce
sci.crypt	re i have seen the lobby and it is us in apr yuma acns colostate edu ns lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons writes in article apr eff org a charles gross acg eff org writes certainly with our way cool internet powers of organization we can act in the same way if such action is appropriate as long as we are kept informed of events anyone on this bboard can make a call to action hopefully we re a strong enough community to act on those calls i realize this is a little optomistic and i m glad eff is working in the loop on these issues but don t underestimate the potential of the net for political action adam i speak for myself i second the motion all in favor sounds great but how would something like this be done start up a news group for discussions of things like lobbying tecniques and how to get non computer geeks as pissed off as we are matthew cline read in the letters to the editor colum of time in response to an article on teen suicide people mpcline cats ucsc edu should be aware of the dangers of killing themselves
sci.crypt	re new encryption algorithm artmel well sf ca us arthur melnick writes ever since craig rowland posted his piece new encryption to sci crypt there has been some discussion of our company secured communications technologies inc and on encryption algorithm nea the classic comment on new encryption algorithms comes from friedman no new cypher is worth considering unless it comes from someone who has already broken a very hard one historically friedman has been right it s really hard to develop a good cypher ibm s lucifer the precursor to des turns out to have been fatally flawed most of the des like systems other than des seem to be vulnerable to differential cryptanalysis the first two tries at public key encryption remember knapsack cyphers were broken most if not all of the machine cyphers of the electromechanical era were broken eventually attempts in the computer era to home brew encryption have been disappointing the classic a survey of data insecurity packages in cryptologia contains analyses and breaking techniques for a few of the popular security packages of the late s a new proprietary algorithm no way if the us is permitting general export of this thing it has to be weak that s how the current regulations work currently there s a willingness to allow systems with short keys bits appears to be no problem the bits of des are too many or weak algorithms i think word perfect qualifies under that rule to be exported i can t believe these guys shepherded their technique through the pto and the state department s arms control division without finding that out john nagle p s no i m not thrilled with clipper either but that s a different issue
sci.crypt	re tempest in article apr ringer cs utsa edu whughes lonestar utsa edu writes in article apr lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com the basic idea behind any communications security system is not to absolutely deny access but to make access more expensive in time money manpower than it is worth true of all security sytems i think and it is the fundamental measure to be used in establishing a requisite security level owen lewis tele fax eloka consultancy project management oml eloka demon co uk pgp x public key on request
sci.crypt	re let s build software cryptophones for over the internet in article regq innn u gap caltech edu hal cco caltech edu hal finney writes i tried this code yesterday on my sparcstation elc it takes over seconds to compress seconds worth of speech this means that it needs to be optimized by over a factor of before it will be usable in even a half duplex mode ouch thanks for trying it i question whether celp is the best approach for this application it produces great compression but at the expense of tremendous cpu loads we want something that can be run on ordinary workstations or even high end pc s without dsp cards my guess is that some other algorithm is going to be a better starting point yes i m not sure if my xposting to comp speech made it to here too but i ve found that a low sample rate samples sec at bits per sample plus the pd shorten lossless sound compression code actually does get speech into k with a simdgen left over this is definitely worth working on folks and shorten works in well under real time g
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful in article apr ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes that is the cops send the lef to the f holder the f holder strips off f and sends u k n to the escrow agents they send either u or k to the cops don says u i say k the cops can t use u in the future because they can t strip off f the f holder never sees u in don s model the escrow agents can t read the traffic because they don t have k in my model they have k but not the message itself and i trust that more because i think the cops and the fbi the f holder are more likely to collaborate on breaking the rules the net result is that by involving the f holder and the escrow agents on every tap we can avoid extending permission to tap i ve been reading this board passively for a while now and find the subject absolutely fascinating especially from the point of view of a civil rights nut like myself my problem is that i m new to the field and paragraphs like the above keep popping up i m sure what mr bellovin is writing about is both fascinating and important but i have no idea what it means anyway i m keen to learn and will read anything i can get my hands on that explains this stuff in lay terms i have a decent cs background but not a huge amount of hyper advanced math can anyone point me to a faq or a decent source of information about the guts of current cryptography and maybe a little history as well i read the piece in this month s wired can anyone tell me how much i should trust the references they suggest thanks in advance steve steve kramarsky university of chicago law school steve faerie chi il us or smk quads uchicago edu all i did was kiss a girl jake the night before his hanging
sci.crypt	re looking for ms dos crypto programs maddison david wrote i am a new reader of sci crypt i would like to obtain a copy of a public domain program that can encrypt files preferably using des that runs under ms dos i would also like to obtain a program which will password protect floppy disks if this is possible thanks david maddison melbourne australia when you find out a floppy password protect program could you e mail me thanks marcus jones mt mmj brunel ac uk dept materials technology brunel university pgp v public key on request
sci.crypt	re new encryption algorithm in article c rdq v chinet chi il us schneier chinet chi il us bruce schneier writes in article raeir be access digex net steve b access digex com steve brinich writes ah but developing cryptosystems which are specificially designed to protect the government s domestic spying capabilities takes them beyond that mandate into the forbidden field of domestic wiretapping unlike the cia the nsa has no prohibition against domestic spying read bamford s the puzzle palace i did you re mistaken nsa s communications intelligence mission is strictly against foreign governments here s an excerpt from the enabling charter oct truman that should clarify this the charter was declassified in about feb when an foia request made it public mind you i don t know that they never collect anything they re not supposed to but spying on us citizens isn t in their charter b the comint mission of the national security agency nsa shall be to provide an effective unified organization and control of the communications intelligence activities of the united states conducted against foreign governments to provide for integrated operational policies and procedures pertaining thereto as used in this directive the terms communications intelligence or comint shall be construed to mean all procedures and methods used in the interception of communications other than foreign press and propaganda broadcasts and the obtaining of information from such communications by other than intended recipients but shall exclude censorship and the production and dissemination of finished intelligence they re also tasked with protecting the us s communications but i haven t seen the specific enabling memo on that i assume that s the role under which skipjack was developed nsa is not in the standard setting business though that s why this clipper stuff came from nist which i believe is tasked with coming up with standards based on their best inputs from other government agencies which would include nsa jim gillogly mersday thrimidge s r
sci.crypt	re let s build software cryptophones for over the internet graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes yes i m not sure if my xposting to comp speech made it to here too but i ve found that a low sample rate samples sec at bits per sample plus the pd shorten lossless sound compression code actually does get speech into k with a simdgen left over this is definitely worth working on folks and shorten works in well under real time i don t think that this should be worked on just in the context of cryptography that s sure to pose all sorts of problems for all sorts of people what s needed is for someone to develop a portable telephone quality speech rs converter imagine if you will a little box that takes data on its serial port and puts out sound and takes sound and codes it to signals on its serial port full duplex now this device is not a cryptographic device it s a portable poor man s sound blaster or whatever you want to call it it s got loads of perfectly legitimate applications for a speech synthesis with a few nifty libraries and some samples b speech recording for electronic messaging c building voicemail systems d internet talk radio e internet relay chat of course some of the electronic messaging in item b might be encrypted possibly realtime but that s the user s decision one would need of these talky boxes and a pair of modems and some kind of cutout to switch over and some code on say a laptop i d really like to see such a thing developed so that interactive internet talk radio could be done ideally though it should be a general purpose device it should be a general purpose enough device that nobody should be able to balk at its widespread use obviously to make it easy for homebrewers it should use pretty common hardware it s interesting to note that i d already talked with a couple of folks about building such a thing before this whole clipper thing started i even went so far as to track down a couple of folks who are able to make sample units given incentive and some time i d envisioned finding a couple of folks interested in such a project and helping fund development of a public domain board layout and parts set that could be published in the form of cad drawings for a couple of major cad packages and in postscript anyone interested i ll start a provisional mailing list let me know if you want on mjr
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful restated and amplified in article sfqpuju wc iqop t andrew cmu edu jon c r bennett jb m andrew cmu edu writes strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes if the crooks use an innocent person s clipper phone on the tapped line there s no problem the feds don t care whose phone instrument is used just that the conversation is by the suspect on the tapped line they get the serial number get the keys and they are in business no clipper chip to person association is ever needed celular phones direction finding and directional monitoring receivers can you say little black bakery truck david jon david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re trademark violation claimed the risc processor made by fairchild sold to intergraph much the same story as the r remember how spielberg lost the control of star wars when the dod started using the name the loss was confirmed in court
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow argh this is what i get for acknowledging david sternlight s existence in article strnlghtc x ir netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes though i think this an overstatement it does contain a grain of truth it s drug dealers spies terrorists and organized crime figures assuming enough probable cause to convince a judge who need to be watched not law abiding citizens okay it looks like i am going to have to do the history lesson after all during the vietnam war there were a great many citizens opposed to it who considered themselves perfectly law abiding although mr nixon and his lackeys thought otherwise the federal government had no compunction about adding people who are otherwise decent law abiding and upstanding but disagree with us to your nice little list do you think this could never happen again note that i am not speculating about what the government could do but discussing the sort of observation including but not limited to phone tapping that the government put its citizens under during a time of national tension your naivete is still appalling btw i mean read what you posted again how are we to differentiate between good people and bad people answer a priori we can t we have to assume now which way do we assume do we assume a priori that a citizen is law abiding or rather a potential communistdruglordchildabusercultmessiah one of the things that s supposedly great about america is the freedoms enjoyed by citizens who are presumed to be law abiding until proven otherwise mike schmelzer mjs genetics wisc edu finger for pgp people didn t riot the minute they saw that film they waited on justice which never came ice t
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in article bu edu uni acs bu edu shaen bernhardt writes in article apr rick dgbt doc ca jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han writes in this giant bally ho over this clipper chip i noticed a rather disturbing trend in some of the e mail and posts i ve tossing back and forth deleted a circut court judge in illinois once said when dealing with a government that seeks continually new and more creative ways to spy on its citizenry one cannot discourage the move to empower the common citizen with the means to parry this attack on personal privacy unfortunately the comment was with regard to the banning of radar detectors the point remains more and more i see the government slowly washing away privacy even unwittingly do you think i will ever live in a soceity that issues smart cards to citizens at birth do you think i will live in a soceity that insists i register my crypto keys so they can keep track of what i m saying even if there is no evidence of my guilt do you think i will ever live in a soceity that seeks to meddle in the affairs of its citizenry without recourse of any kind i m tired of it there is imho no compromise with an administration that seeks to implement these proposals under the guise of enhancing privacy more than the proposals themselves i read the language of the press releases the obvious deception involved in presenting these pieces to the public and i am sickened i am revolted i am repulsed perhaps even of this country could care less about the clipper chip the wiretap bill the smart card because they are so entrapped in the rhetoric of the clinton administration the problem is the people are not having the scope or implicataions pointed out to them hell most haven t even heard of clipper and when they do it will be in soothing language telling everyone how nice the government is at letting them have privacy how come the media is not telling about the provisions of the clipper decision the provisions of the crime bill the abuses of civil forfeiture the government uses polls to support percent of the people want gun bans etc yet the same pollsters have determined according to the media that percent of the people are unaware of what the holocaust is the people cannot be expected to give decent decisions when they are denied the information that all these abuses and whittling away of rights are going on quietly when they find out when it hits them it will be too late one cannot expect each citizen to spend all their time probing searching researching etc for example how big a percentage of the average population even has access to usenet way less than percent i bet how many outside of internet usenet are even aware of what big brother is doing or have been exposed to arguments of both sides of the issue what the public will get is only one side the government s side that is scary this saddens and frightens me i am a conserveative believe it or not a law and order conserveative but the move to a centralized authoratarian regime really scares me mostly because i know you cant go far wrong underestimating the intelligence of the american people tell them it s going to keep them safe from drug dealers and terrorists and they will let you put cameras in their home how can the bulk of the people be informed when the media refuses to do it even in the wake of waco you find those who support the increasingly totalatarian moves somebody once said something like armed violence is meant only to be used in response to an armed attack it is not meant to be used in agression this is the difference between self defence and murder to be quite honest the way things are going i d call it self defense let s try to avoid killing things eh there s enough blood shed in the world without adding a couple of riots civil wars etc i m probably overreacting but what i ve read scared me a lot i don t want my children growing up in a war zone and i dont want mine growning up in the eyes of a security camera hours a day the people at large need to be informed but how i am but one person i try to talk to everyone that will listen but i can hardly make any kind of dent pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	re let s build software cryptophones for over the internet in c a t demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes in article regq innn u gap caltech edu hal cco caltech edu hal finney writes i tried this code yesterday on my sparcstation elc it takes over seconds to compress seconds worth of speech this means that it needs to be optimized by over a factor of before it will be usable in even a half duplex mode ouch thanks for trying it the following program is a very quick hack i created a few months ago to determine whether a sun sparcstation ipc could perform real time full duplex encrypted audio with resulting data rates sustainable by today s modems this test program reads linearly encoded audio from the audio device compresses it with gsm compresses frames of bit samples recorded at khz into bits resulting in a hz frame rate encrypts it with des then reverses the process and sends the reconstructed audio back to the audio device the compressed encrypted audio stream is kbits s my sparcstation ipc not exactly a very fast machine these days certainly slower than an elc would just barely sustain this activity audio underruns would occcur but the speech was very intelligible i ran it as a real time process to get the best results remember though that this program is a quick hack and the performance can certainly be improved the audio compression routines can be ftp d from tub cs tu berlin de i believe look for gsm or toast i used eric young s des implementation but i no longer know where i got it from cheers greg cut here test program to see how much cpu it takes for secure digital audio written by g onufer greg cheers bungi com written on a sun ipc running solaris with a sun isdn s bus card and a speakerbox include stdlib h include unistd h include fcntl h include stdio h include sys types h include sys audioio h include stropts h include gsm h include des h boolean t svs audio init int fd audio info t prev info audio info t info if prev info null if ioctl fd audio getinfo prev info perror audio getinfo return b false audio initinfo info info record pause b true info play pause b true info play sample rate info play encoding audio encoding linear info play channels info play precision info record sample rate info record encoding audio encoding linear info record channels info record precision info record buffer size if ioctl fd audio setinfo info perror audio setinfo return b false if ioctl fd i flush flushrw perror i flush return b false audio initinfo info info record pause b false info play pause b false if ioctl fd audio setinfo info perror audio setinfo return b false return b true boolean t svs in int ifd gsm handle gsm byte buf gsm signal sample if read ifd sample sizeof sample sizeof sample fprintf stderr svs in short read n return b false gsm encode handle sample buf return b true boolean t svs out int ofd gsm handle gsm byte buf gsm signal sample if gsm decode handle buf sample fprintf stderr svs out gsm decode failed n return b false if write ofd sample sizeof sample sizeof sample fprintf stderr svs out short write n return b false return b true main gsm handle gsm frame frame int audiofd int option des cblock key ivec in ivec out des key schedule ks in ks out des cblock cbuf in cbuf out cbuf buf audiofd open dev audio o rdwr if audiofd perror open exit initialize gsm compression code if handle gsm create null fprintf stderr svs gsm create failed n exit option b true if gsm option handle gsm opt fast option fprintf stderr svs gsm option fast failed n exit initialize des code des random key key if des set key key ks in fprintf stderr svs des set key failed n exit if des set key key ks out fprintf stderr svs des set key failed n exit memset ivec in sizeof ivec in memset ivec out sizeof ivec out open audio device and configure it if svs audio init audiofd null exit for get samples bit linear hz and convert to a byte frame if svs in audiofd handle frame exit encrypt decrypt block des cbc encrypt frame cbuf out long ks in ivec in des encrypt des cbc encrypt cbuf out cbuf buf long ks out ivec out des decrypt memmove frame cbuf buf if if memcmp cbuf in cbuf buf fprintf stderr svs memcmp failed n exit endif take byte frame and convert to samples and play if svs out audiofd handle frame exit gsm destroy handle cut here
sci.crypt	re let s build software cryptophones for over the internet in article rf s jqu sol tis com mjr tis com marcus j ranum writes i d really like to see such a thing developed so that interactive internet talk radio could be done ideally though it should be a general purpose device it should be a general purpose enough device that nobody should be able to balk at its widespread use obviously to make it easy for homebrewers it should use pretty common hardware i suggest we start with the ubiquitous sun to get a lot of momentum going custom hardware isn t going to go anywhere until there s a user base anyone interested i ll start a provisional mailing list let me know if you want on count me in i need someone at the us end to experiment on the protocols with and i like the way you code give me weeks to move house and settle in then we ll go for it seriously g
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes how come the media is not telling about the provisions of the clipper decision how can the bulk of the people be informed when the media refuses to do it the answer to your second question lies in the way you phrased the first one the media is the medis isn t is the media are media means more than one medium there are thousands of publications some say this some say that how can the bulk of the people be informed when they won t read informative publications rahul dhesi dhesi rahul net also dhesi cirrus com
sci.crypt	hearing on april i received a fax of a letter from representative markey subcommittee on telecommunications and finance to ron brown secretary of commerce since encryption and the clipper chip are raised in this letter i felt it would be of interest i understand that on april mr markey will be holding a hearing on the questions raised in this letter there may also be a follow on hearing dedicated to the clipper chip but that s not definite i ve typed in the letter which follows any errors in transcription are mine glenn tenney tenney netcom com amateur radio aa er voice fax letter of interest follows april the honorable ronald h brown secretary department of commerce th and pennsylvania ave nw washington dc dear secretary brown as you know i have long been interested in the privacy and security of telecommunications transmissions and data in a networked environment recent reports concerning the administration s endorsement of an electronic encryption standard based upon clipper chip technology have raised a number of related issues the international competitiveness of u s high tech manufacturers and the software industry is a key factor that the government should consider when addressing issues of encryption and data security as the nation moves forward in developing the national communications and information infrastructure security of telecommunications transmissions and network data will be an increasingly important factor for protecting the privacy of users the hacker community can compromise the integrity of telecommunications transmissions and databases linked by the network the people and businesses that use the nation s telecommunications network and the personal computers linked through it increasingly are demanding that information be protected against unauthorized access alteration and theft i am concerned that the administration s plan may mean that to remain competitive internationally u s companies would be compelled to develop two products one for u s government customers and another for private commercial users who may want a higher encryption standard this may inadvertently increase costs to those u s companies hoping to serve both markets to assist the subcommittee s analysis of this issue please respond to the following questions has the encryption algorithm or standard endorsed by the administration been tested by any entity other than nsa nist or the vendor if so please identify such entities and the nature of testing performed if not please describe any plans to have the algorithm tested by outside experts and how such experts will be chosen under the administration s plan what entities will be the holders of the keys to decrypt scrambled data what procedures or criteria will the administration utilize to designate such key holders does the encryption algorithm endorsed by the administration contain a trap door or back door which could allow an agency or entity of the federal government to crack the code it is clear that over time changes in technologies used for communications will require new techniques and additional equipment how will encryption devices adapt to the rapid advancement of telecommunications technology what additional costs would the proposed encryption place on the federal government what is the estimated cost to consumers and businesses which opt for the federal standard in their equipment what is the commerce department s assessment of the competitive impact of the administration s endorsement of the clipper chip technology on u s exports of computer and telecommunications hardware and software products i would appreciate your response by no later than close of business wednesday april if you have any questions please have your staff contact colin crowell or karen colannino of the subcommittee staff at sincerely edward j markey chairman glenn tenney voice fax tenney netcom com ham radio aa er
sci.crypt	implementing a diffie hellman key exchange i want to add link encryption to a module that multiplexes upper level routines into a single data link the upper levels won t know about this and thus key exchange shall only need to occur once at the initial link establishment i figure that i can do this with des and a diffie hellman key exchange is using a diffie hellman exchange to establish a bit des key acceptable in other words what are the pro s and con s of such a setup are there any important issues to watch out for aside from filtering out unacceptable keys and in order to achieve this i guess i will need to use bit math routines for probable prime number calculation exponentiation etc so could someone point me towards a good package this is strictly non commercial matthew matt consent uts edu au the power of one man seems like a small squirt tdhoh
sci.crypt	re let s build software cryptophones for over the internet in article c d r c p demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes in article rf s jqu sol tis com mjr tis com marcus j ranum writes i d really like to see such a thing developed so that interactive internet talk radio could be done ideally though it should be a general purpose device it should be a general purpose enough device that nobody should be able to balk at its widespread use obviously to make it easy for homebrewers it should use pretty common hardware i suggest we start with the ubiquitous sun to get a lot of momentum going custom hardware isn t going to go anywhere until there s a user base why don t we move down even further toward the masses by setting this up on an ibm pc clone probably needs to be a or a with a sound blaster and a v bis modem those components are very widely available i don t know if the pc has enough horsepower to encrypt the data at realtime but the sound blaster has to hardware compression and will work at any sampling rate from khz to khz doug holland doug holland anyone who tries to take away my freedom holland cs colostate edu of speech will have to pry it from my pgp key available by e mail cold dead lips
sci.crypt	re hearing on april in article tenneyc hqh s netcom com glenn s tenney tenney netcom com writes of interest i understand that on april mr markey will be holding a hearing on the questions raised in this letter there may also be a follow on hearing dedicated to the clipper chip but that s not definite glenn thanks for posting that i was surprised to notice however that one question i might have expected to be asked was not are all forms of strong encryption other than the clipper to be made illegal speaking of which is anyone aware of whether that question has been asked of any knowledgeable or official spokesperson for the government i have not yet seen it mentioned in any of a dozen places it might have been reported but i could have easily missed it ted lee trusted information system inc tmplee tis com po box minnetonka mn
sci.crypt	re new encryption algorithm well actually this one s easy it s their job the nsa is supposed to develop cryptosystems if the government chooses to go ahead and sell those cryptosystems to the masses so be it ah but developing cryptosystems which are specificially designed to protect the government s domestic spying capabilities takes them beyond that mandate into the forbidden field of domestic wiretapping the nsa s charter forbids them from doing any purely domestic intelligence work i would think that even providing assistance in development of the skipjack algorithom is a violation of that charter but as with any intrenched government agency they will do what they think is expedent jeff hupp internet jhupp shockwave win net medowglen apt ad contract programming novell houston texas network design and support voice the best govenment doesn t me
sci.crypt	re new encryption algorithm in article rand org jim rand org jim gillogly writes i did you re mistaken nsa s communications intelligence mission is strictly against foreign governments here s an excerpt from the enabling charter oct truman that should clarify this the charter was declassified in about feb when an foia request made it public interesting where can i get the whole thing nsa is not in the standard setting business though that s why this clipper stuff came from nist which i believe is tasked with coming up with standards based on their best inputs from other government agencies which would include nsa several of the newspaper reports have made it fairly clear that the nsa did all the real work you can t believe everything you read in the papers but the package of information the nist is faxing out has so little information beyond what s widely known that it sounds like it s true pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful in article aa pizzabox demon co uk gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes does dorothy denning read this group if not is someone on the group forwarding questions like these to her or martin hellman or anyone else who s seen more details about the chip of course she does it s just she s been toasted so often for being an nsa patsy that she s keeping her head down you can always mail her directly as denning guvax acc georgetown edu denning cs cosc georgetown edu or denning cs georgetown edu g i found the personal attacks on prof denning pretty disgusting i don t agree with all her positions but i think scholars can disagree without the argument getting into the gutter if these personal attacks are what stopped prof denning from replying on issues of substance they have cause real harm to the serious debate here gideon yuval gideony microsoft com fax twx
sci.crypt	re dorothy denning opposes clipper capstone wiretap chips in article c bj bk agora rain com jhart agora rain com jim hart writes the security of the system should depend only on the secrecy of the keys and not on the secrecy of the algorithms dorothy denning cite source please mike mike godwin ariel rose godwin mnemonic eff org born at pm in cambridge pounds ounces inches long eff cambridge a new citizen of the electronic frontier
sci.crypt	re clipper scope was overreacting pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes the problem is the people are not having the scope or implicataions pointed out to them hell most haven t even heard of clipper and when they do it will be in soothing language telling everyone how nice the government is at letting them have privacy much more deleted the people at large need to be informed but how i am but one person i try to talk to everyone that will listen but i can hardly make any kind of dent here is how lets write a document which includes all the reasons we oppose clipper in clear concise non techincal manner i urge everyone of you to take the very simple start below and repost it with changes let the text evolve until we reach something most of us like then all of you should send a copy with a personnel letter to your congress critter local reporter on sci tech etc please to make this a success try to post only an agreed version not flames to respond to a flame to this please change the subject to e g clipper scope discussion michael golan mg cs princeton edu all of these are points which should be made into paragraphs what is wrong with the clipper chip by usenet users it is secret how can we trust the escrow agencies it is not cost effective we want other encryption systems the government seems to want to disallow it in the future anyone can build a non key system we are worried about a back door once everyone uses a clipper chip the mechanism for a big brother government is in place a change of government can lead to it especially since the escrow agencies operation is not governed by law so the president can change the rules to allow free access to the keys at any time e g during war few criminals are caught by wiretaps the cost and risks are unjustified once the fbi get hold of a key it can decrypt past and future conversations
sci.crypt	re what is going on paul repacholi zrepachol cc curtin edu au wrote ps the first posting i saw i thought was a joke in very bad taste my appologies to the person who broke the news for what it s worth clipper chip announcement clipper csrc ncsl nist gov wrote note this file will also be available via anonymous file transfer from csrc ncsl nist gov in directory pub nistnews and via the nist computer security bbs at the white house i haven t been able to open an ftp session with that machine operating under the assumption that the address was wrong i tried using nslookup and nicname whois ls nist gov nnsc nsf net host or domain name internet address ncsl server mail gw ncsl nist gov mail gw ncsl ncsl server dove nist gov ncsl server ecf ncsl nist gov ecf ncsl ncsl server enh nist gov ncsl server sunmgr ncsl nist gov sunmgr ncsl that s all i could find about the ncsl domain oh and i tried an mx lookup on the machine in question which failed nicname whois domain lookups at both registries failed too so i thought hey i m just not using the tools right and tried calling the bbs number no answer i m probably doing something wrong or perhaps the machine has been put behind a firewall but it does look like csrc ncsl nist gov has become an un machine if someone would try ftp ing to it or knows what s up i d really appreciate the info scott doty sdoty odie santarosa edu
sci.crypt	re clipper and conference calls in article netnews upenn edu feeley cattell psych upenn edu wm michael feeley writes just curious how would the clipper chip system handle conference calls it s not clipper it s any encryption system i ve seen a number of designs they generally involve a multi line cleartext bridge a multi line cleartext bridge and just were would you put that bridge if it isn t at one of the receiptants location forget encryption at all you have blown any security you thought you might have had jeff hupp internet jhupp shockwave win net medowglen apt ad contract programming novell houston texas network design and support voice the best govenment doesn t me
sci.crypt	re key registering bodies in article c wdfo demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes in article naglec w e hl netcom com nagle netcom com john nagle writes since the law requires that wiretaps be requested by the executive branch and approved by the judicial branch it seems clear that one of the key registering bodies should be under the control of the judicial branch i suggest the supreme court or regionally the courts of appeal more specifically the offices of their clerks i ve got a better idea we give one set to the kgb c o washington embassy and the other set to the red chinese imho one should place the keybanks into satellites space the recovery should be done only by highly visible teams of astronauts borut b lavrencic d sc x c si a mail p ac o ijs s lavrencic j stefan institute internet borut b lavrencic ijs si university of ljubljana phone si ljubljana slovenia pgp public key available on request dolgo smois kalis ovraz nikei njihk ocnoo dkril ivseb ipika
sci.crypt	re tempest whughes lonestar utsa edu william w hughes writes hell just set up a spark jammer or some other very electrically noisy device this doesn t work due to the near field far field effect you may stop someone five yards away from listening in but someone fifty yards away will be relatively unaffected unless you pump out hundreds of watts and jam all the neighbourhood tv s as well in that case the government will stomp on you ask any radio ham democratic governments care even more about their voters right to watch soap operas than they do about national security and dictators consider their propaganda to be an integral part of their national security and holland cs colostate edu doug holland writes another idea use a laptop computer as mentioned earlier the lcd screen is a lot less noisy than a standard crt but since many laptops have power supplies that run at volts instead of they would be considerably quieter i m afraid this doesn t work either we can pick up laptop screens without any problem most of the so called low radiation monitors are also useless the description turns out to a marketing assertion rather than an engineering one we thought there might be a market for a monitor which was not as hugely expensive as the military tempest kit but which was well enough shielded to stop eavesdropping using available receivers we built a prototype it works and it s still sitting on my lab bench commercial interest was exactly zero in the absence of open standards a monitor which really is low radiation and costs dollars more can t compete against a monitor which just claims to be low radiation and whose only extra cost of production is the pretty blue sticker on the box ross
sci.crypt	re new encryption algorithm in article c rdq v chinet chi il us schneier chinet chi il us bruce schneier writes unlike the cia the nsa has no prohibition against domestic spying read bamford s the puzzle palace we had a senior nsa scientist in cambridge at one of our workshops recently in fact he was here when the clipper announcement was made but we didn t learn of it till after he d gone he said on this point that he was forbidden by law to monitor conversations between us nationals and he is a chap who is very precise about his choice of words so i don t expect he d have any qualms about monitoring a domestic us conversation if one of the parties was an alien however it got me thinking of the navajo code talkers just imagine hello is that the iraqi mission in new york this is the iraqi foreign ministry in baghdad i am farouq hussein us citizen social security number so and so yes indeed this is the new york mission mustafa jadid speaking also a us citizen my social security number is such and such here is our report on activities against the satan clinton ross
sci.crypt	re tempest in article apr infodev cam ac uk rja cl cam ac uk ross anderson writes whughes lonestar utsa edu william w hughes writes ideas that are claimed not to work deleted how about putting your system inside a faraday cage even i could build one jim information farming at for addr phone finger a a the ohio state university jebright magnus acs ohio state edu jim ebright e mail jre osu edu support privacy support encryption
sci.crypt	re wiretapping reality today in article vuumdq mbeckman mbeckman com mbeckman mbeckman mbeckman com mel beckman writes unfortunately hoover thought himself above the constitution whatever he considered the limits others should obey he ruthlessly invaded the privacy of many private and public citizens mel in when i was a grad student at uw in seattle i had a chance to read hoover s book masters of deceit and i quote a sentence from memory and beware my fellow americans a communist may look just as an ordinary person i went to the mirror and it was true borut b lavrencic d sc x c si a mail p ac o ijs s lavrencic j stefan institute internet borut b lavrencic ijs si university of ljubljana phone si ljubljana slovenia pgp public key available on request dolgo smois kalis ovraz nikei njihk ocnoo dkril ivseb ipika
sci.crypt	re wiretapping reality today david sternlight writes a little perspective might be in order i cannot believe you can make these claims given hard evidence of abuse do you ignore stories about survellience of martin luther king have you blocked from your mind mccarthy s crusade in the s the number of court ordered wire taps is pretty low and how many illegal wiretaps are performed funny but i ll be that the fbi doesn t keep statistics on these confidential informer illegal wiretap karl l barrus elee sf menudo uh edu preferred address barrus tree egr uh edu nextmail karl l barrus elee sf menudo uh edu preferred address barrus tree egr uh edu nextmail
sci.crypt	re new encryption algorithm in article shockwave win net jhupp shockwave win net jeff hupp writes the nsa s charter forbids them from doing any purely domestic intelligence work i would think that even providing assistance in development of the skipjack algorithom is a violation of that charter but as with any intrenched government agency they will do what they think is expedent there are other laws and directives which bear upon the subject for example the national computer security act of specifically directs nbs sic to work with nsa on developing security standards for civilian federal computers pick up the bill from cpsr org it also includes a report describing it and some of the legislative history including concerns about nsa s involvement note also that nsa is specifically charged with running the national computer security center to quote the aforementioned report nsa also will work with industries at the dod computer security center to develop security standards for private sector use it may or may not be a good idea to have nsa tinkering with this but i m pretty sure it s legal btw when it comes to development of cryptosystems there may be two choices either nsa helped develop it in which case maybe they can crack it maybe not but probably no one else can or nsa didn t help in which case they probably can crack it and maybe others as well
sci.crypt	re what is going on sdoty odie santarosa edu scott doty writes but it does look like csrc ncsl nist gov has become an un machine if someone would try ftp ing to it or knows what s up i d really appreciate the info csrc ncsl nist gov is ftp able from here steve
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful restated and amplified clipper also allows an extraordinary opportunity for the criminal to conceal use of super encryption an automated full system surveillance mechanism quite feasible across radio bandwidth which knows family key f can validate clipper wrappers and n esn associations but it cannot reveal in realtime the use of super encryption unless it knows all unit keys which we are being assured are only to be made available in two separate pieces upon specific wiretap like order the serial number will be in a bit block with a bit filler doesn t take a lot to check to see if that is correct
sci.crypt	re tempest the low radiation claims one sees on monitors these days pertain to allegedly harmful electromagnetic emissions which does not necessarily have anything to do wtih tempest security i think the alleged hazard is bs but that s another topic
sci.crypt	how sensible is des towards bit errors hello how sensible is des encrypted data towards bit errors how much data per bit will be lost in average i assume you still have the correct key thanx for hints axel experience is what you get if you don t get what you want systemberatung axel dunkel koenigsberger strasse d kriftel germany e mail ad cat de voice fax
sci.crypt	re i have seen the lobby and it is us in article r av bg transfer stratus com cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison writes i don t know about you but i have nearly forgotten how to generate paper mail if i had e mail to congress i would have written many letters by now i haven t written one yet as it turns out writing on paper is such a complicated job for those of us hooked on our way cool internet just ask postmaster for the e mail address of the printer paul
sci.crypt	re clipper not good enough for government in article rdippold qualcom rdippold qualcomm com ron asbestos dippold writes there s been some discussion very recently as to whether the government once again might exempt themselves from something they use to screw us over well from comp dcom telecom from lesreeves attmail com subject odds n ends in the news the clipper chip device introduced yesterday by at t may not be suitable for government use says house telecom subcommittee chairman markey in a letter to commerce secretary brown markey asked whether the use of the technology could lead to inadvertently increased costs to those u s companies hoping to serve both the government and private markets markey has ordered brown to answer several questions about security and cost concerns by april communications daily this is stupid won t it cost more to those companies hoping to serve the gov t and private markets if they don t use the same technology doug bank private systems division dougb ecs comm mot com motorola communications sector dougb nwu edu schaumburg illinois dougb casbah acns nwu edu
sci.crypt	re encryption chip availibility in article aej d cmuvm bitnet aej d cmuvm bitnet writes in article ofpppcs iuy k mr andrew cmu edu stephen j ludwick sl b andrew cmu edu says hi everybody does anyone know of companies that are currently manufacturing encryption chips for sale to the general public get them while you can some pointers would be greatly appreciated motorola certainly makes them but i don t know how you would go about buying one you d probably have to buy one of our secure radios you could also bring in encryption chips from outside the country doug bank private systems division dougb ecs comm mot com motorola communications sector dougb nwu edu schaumburg illinois dougb casbah acns nwu edu
sci.crypt	re dorothy denning opposes clipper capstone wiretap chips in article apr eff org mnemonic eff org mike godwin writes in article c bj bk agora rain com jhart agora rain com jim hart writes the security of the system should depend only on the secrecy of the keys and not on the secrecy of the algorithms dorothy denning cite source please dorothy denning cryptography and data security addison wesley page under the heading cryptosystems must satisfy three general requirements the other two are efficiency and ease of use michael l mauldin carnegie mellon university
sci.crypt	re how sensible is des towards bit errors in ad cat axel dunkel writes how sensible is des encrypted data towards bit errors how much data per bit will be lost in average i assume you still have the correct key it depends on the mode you re using for a single bit input block a one bit error will have a percent chance of corrupting each of the output bits in other words it essentially turns the output block into a random number if you re encrypting data in cbc mode however only the one bit block will be affected the next block and all that follow it will be decrypted properly it s a good idea to have some kind of error correction in your system if corrupted bits are likely todd
sci.crypt	is it illegal to transmit encrypted data i am aware of the restrictions imposed by the munitions act on the export of cryptographic technology however is it illegal to transmit encrypted data from the u s to another country if so then which laws apply to this situation georgel neosoft com george livsey visualize whirrled peas net s worth
sci.crypt	re keeping your mouth shut was hard drive security in article apr midway uchicago edu smk quads uchicago edu steve kramarsky writes ok i should have read the thread before posting my own i would just add to phil s very infomative discussion the following caveat the fifth amendment applies only in crinial cases nor shall any person be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself maybe you are using the wrong amendment if someone were to seize a safe containing your paper records and demand that you produce the combination the applicable defense would be on grounds of unreasonable search and seizure the police would be entitled to subpoena documents relating to a specific matter but any broad search such as implied by impounding all your records would be unconstitutional in the case of the safe they would probably get a locksmith and assert that they only examined documents covered by the warrent sure in the cryptographic case their only resort would be rubber hose cryptography this would also make a good mental experiment to use in choosing escrow agents would you trust this proposed agent with a key to your hard disk or half the key for that matter robert i eachus with standard disclaimer use standard disclaimer function message text in clever ideas return better ideas is
sci.crypt	re s s in article r ue access digex net steve b access digex com steve brinich writes second question why why is such a strange procedure used and not a real rng this turns those s s in a kind of bottleneck for system security the only theory that makes any sense is that s and s are either the same for all chips or vary among very few possibilities so that anyone trying to break the encryption by brute force need only plow through the possible serial numbers about one billion multiplied by the number of different s s combinations suppose instead that s and s can be reconstructed given or of the unit keys generated in a single batch through some sort of known plaintext attack say suppose further that or of the chips programmed in each session never find their way into commercial products but instead end up elsewhere suppose the folks at elsewhere can determine a unit key given physical access to one of these chips then those same folks can determine s and s for the whole batch too many suppositions yeah probably pat
sci.crypt	re clipper chip is it realistic for the government to try to keep the details of the encrytion algorithm secret if it intends to use evidence from wiretaps in court won t defense attorneys attempt to obtain the details of the method if the prosecution attempts to present evidence from wiretaps in court is it certain that such attempts will fail james b shearer
sci.crypt	re pgp where to get it jeff hupp jhupp shockwave win net wrote i am facinated by the things i have heard about the pgp encryption program does anybody out there know where i might get a version of this program that runs under windows ms dos unix w source as of this writting i have no unix access and am running on a nifty windows implamentation of uucico at the moment pgp is available in executable format for ms dos and mac and source code for most other platforms including unix many ftp sites keep a copy although the mac version is getting hard to find try the following site soda berkeley edu pub cypherpunks pgp jon jon saville who alive can say thou art no ee jks brunel ac uk poet may st not tell thy dreams keats pgp public key available upon request or by finger
sci.crypt	re clipper and conference calls just curious how would the clipper chip system handle conference calls depending on the encryption system so long as everyone has the same key it can be done for example i was using vat which is an internet audio tool for a conference call and we were encrypting the session unfortunately one site was doing more work and didn t have the cpu for it so it didn t sound all that good at a different site you would have to use something other than the at t black box in other words i don t think public key would work the session key would have to be agreed upon prior to the conversation and distributed to all sites beforehand or go out and get a stu iii doug bank private systems division dougb ecs comm mot com motorola communications sector dougb nwu edu schaumburg illinois dougb casbah acns nwu edu these opinions do not reflect motorola thinking in any way shape or form
sci.crypt	re hearing on april in article c ojm cjh news mr net tmplee tis com theodore m p lee writes in article tenneyc hqh s netcom com glenn s tenney tenney netcom com writes of interest i understand that on april mr markey will be holding a hearing on the questions raised in this letter there may also be a follow on hearing dedicated to the clipper chip but that s not definite glenn thanks for posting that i was surprised to notice however that one question i might have expected to be asked was not are all forms of strong encryption other than the clipper to be made illegal speaking of which is anyone aware of whether that question has been asked of any knowledgeable or official spokesperson for the government i have not yet seen it mentioned in any of a dozen places it might have been reported but i could have easily missed it please let us know if you get a solid answer to the question of legality of other strong cryptosystems so far any references i have seen have been weasel words more plans in the future etc but nothing that could be taken as a no strong crypto will not be outlawed i have heard not verified that the crime bill before congress has language that either requires escrow of keys or that will regard all systems unapproved for public use like strong cryptosystems not trivially broken by the govt or without escrowed keys which one cannot readily change read use being only permitted by folks with special connections or government agencies as either terrorist tools or drug dealers tools not outlawed specifically but by added civil forfeiture powers and clever wording effectively outlawed for all intents and purposes now for some idle speculation for those who don t care hit n now crypto being effectively outlawed could be done without specifically outlawing any class of crypto systems for example a crowbar hammers screwdrivers and such can be regarded as burglar tools pretty much at the whim of the authorities based primarily on the individual possessing them in the car etc not being in a trade that makes routine use of these tools in a like manner one who has no legitimate need gov t definition for strong crypto software or systems and is caught using them might find themselves in possession of terrorist tools in other words if one is not working for a corporation with extremely sensitive commercial data that warrants in the fed s opinion strong security or a government agency and securing only work related data not personal data one will most likely be nailed on this if discoverd a personal desire for privacy most certainly will not be regarded as a legitimate need why do you want such strong security especially from legitimate law enforcement an individual with legitimate endeavors would not be so concerned government is not in the business of revealing your personal secrets to the public so you must be trying to conceal or planning to conceal some unlawful or criminal activity do you have something to hide hmmmm i expect that initially there will be some people selected either at random or who happen to have been troublemakers for the purposes of making an example for those who think the feds are not serious about this mega s one asking about a right to privacy will probably get a response that there is no constitutional right for privacy spelled out as such an argument used in the abortion debate you do not have a right to have security that legitimate law enforcement cannot break as suggested in the clipper press release this in a nutshell is what i find so extremely frightening not only for crypto systems as in this case but for the precident it will set laying the groundwork for future erosions of privacy escrow of both safe deposit box keys master keys or combinations for privately owned safes and so on why not i cannot think of a better way to make an end run around those inconvenient parts of the us constitution a law cannot be easily declared unconstitutional if it there is no specific law it would simply be a minor extension of the rico statutes or wod policies a simple policy decision just like so many of the gun regulations are mainly batf policy decisions the conversation of the fed agents would go something like we are gonna seize your home your computers your car your bank account you don t have to undress and give us yer clothes unless you have a floppy in yer pocket because they are all connected with your acquisition transport and use of terrorist tools and or drug dealers tools part of the wod or against terrorism ya unnerstand no decent american subject would be against these noble causes note we are not accusing you of any wrong doing we are only saying your home computers car bank assets are connected with wrong doing somehow they housed transported and funded these terrorist tools only a civil matter heh heh we had this tip grin therefore the constitutional protection on individual rights do not apply we are arresting the tainted property not you evil grin if you wish to deposit a bond hire some attorneys and go to court to prove the innocence of this property that they are not terrorist tools and again to prove they are not also drug dealers tools go ahead we have no problem with that course with your bank assets seized no car computer or home probably no job too and your less than limitless resources you might run into some minor practical difficulties grin that is what has me going so damned ballistic it is exactly how the logic goes when someone gives a tip that your home has been used to store drugs note no trace of drugs need to be found on the property only some bozo who will say yup i stored stuff in that dude s house probably to get out of a year sentence for dealing much more cost effective to let him walk to bust another day and hit the jackpot with your assets ob disclaimer of course ok note that i am not a lawyer and can only base these speculations on what i have read heard been told regarding past civil forfeiture cases and how they are used to augment the budgets of assorted agencies or to get cooperation of folks who just want to be left alone or who do not wish to be put in a risky situation especially in areas where they are denied either meaningful police protection and the means to be able to even pretend to defend themselves as is quite common back east like nj ma nyc wa dc or out west in ca these people have the choice of cowering under the government boot or cowering under threats of pissed off drug dealing gang bangers helpless in either case all behind some dude who drops a dime on you for his gain or behind the feds wanting to make an example civil forfeiture being the hook point is are these speculations way out of line or are they all too typical and if so does the extension to crypto and just about anything that the feds regard as inconvenient seem reasonable and if not why not what are our guarantees besides the government promises none ted lee trusted information system inc tmplee tis com po box minnetonka mn pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful restated and amplified in article apr wdl loral com koontzd phobos lrmsc loral com david koontz writes clipper also allows an extraordinary opportunity for the criminal to conceal use of super encryption an automated full system surveillance mechanism quite feasible across radio bandwidth which knows family key f can validate clipper wrappers and n esn associations but it cannot reveal in realtime the use of super encryption unless it knows all unit keys which we are being assured are only to be made available in two separate pieces upon specific wiretap like order the serial number will be in a bit block with a bit filler doesn t take a lot to check to see if that is correct depends on whether the filler is a constant makes checking easy but susceptible to replay or variable e g timer counter random which makes replay harder and can also make it easier for the inquisitors to know if they ve missed messages or gotten them out of sequence or other interesting things that sort of person might care about it is still easy to conceal super encryption at least until the inquisitors get ahold of the k key which can take a while presumably not in near real time worst case in which the escrow agencies provide the u key to the local cops still only gets one side of the conversation per warrant unless the same key is used for both directions which i suppose the capstone version of the chip will probably insist on pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	re clipper and conference calls in article shockwave win net jhupp shockwave win net jeff hupp writes conference calls it s not clipper it s any encryption system i ve seen a number of designs they generally involve a multi line cleartext bridge a multi line cleartext bridge and just were would you put that bridge if it isn t at one of the receiptants location forget encryption at all you have blown any security you thought you might have had most of the people using encrypted conference bridges these days are military or equivalent like cia and other embassy personnel so putting bridges on the recipient s location is normal it s in a vault on a military base or ft meade and the secure phones are in sound proof rooms with big locks on the doors because they re talking about classified stuff or golf with other generals that paradigm will change as we start using encrypted phones in our offices or homes to carry on normal conversations about dinner plans and stock purchases and meeting schedules and technical info and the good batch of illegal frop that we got last weekend from bob most people don t use sound proof vaults and may use bridges in their pbx or from the local phone company way calls or long distance or value added phone company e g alliance conference bridges if clipjack is mainly used for the radio portion of cellular phones the conferencing aspects don t change but there may be a market niche for trusted conference bridge providers though i suppose the inquisitors would try to get a blanket wiretap authorization for many bridges just in case a bad guy might use the service pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	re tempest in article apr infodev cam ac uk rja cl cam ac uk ross anderson writes i m afraid this doesn t work either we can pick up laptop screens without any problem most of the so called low radiation monitors are also useless the description turns out to a marketing assertion rather than an engineering one we thought there might be a market for a monitor which was not as hugely expensive as the military tempest kit but which was well enough shielded to stop eavesdropping using available receivers we built a prototype it works and it s still sitting on my lab bench commercial interest was exactly zero in the absence of open standards a monitor which really is low radiation and costs dollars more can t compete against a monitor which just claims to be low radiation and whose only extra cost of production is the pretty blue sticker on the box ross i heard somewhere can t name the source that tempest does not necessarily pick up just crts but it can pick up emissions from almost any chip if that is true the kind monitor would not make any difference becuase everything on the screen can be picked up from the video controller can anybody verify or refute this angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu btw these are my opinions and not that of any other entity my god its full of stars dave i don t know about you but we ve got company epidemic
sci.crypt	official secrets act usa sorry my news reader doesn t seem to know how to copy a subject header this tracks the thread why people don t need strong crypto the atomic energy act of expressly forbids thinking about building nuclear devices while i was in grad school a friend of mine got a security clearance to work on the defense for the progressive magazine he found lots of articles which were public domain removed from the local engineering library madison wisconsin so the lawyers sent him all over the states to other libraries to show that the information in the article was already public what pissed everyone off was a local underground paper went and published the article anyway it had been precensored by the feds that s what this was all about so the judge declared the case moot the atomic energy act of has never been tested in court from my discussions with several people familiar with the case only other times has this preemptive clause been used in every case the people simply did what they felt like and courts tossed the cases out for all intents and purposes the government does have precidence for declaring things classified after it has been published while i was working on star wars this happened to me my clearance was in the works and i developed a method for tracking particle beams it was good enough to classify so i was no longer allowed to work on it a friend from canada was in the same boat he developed a method to compute stripping cross sections but because the subject was classified he was not allowed to present his own paper at a conference he later published it in an open journal without problems when the going gets wierd the wierd turn pro the feds can do whatever they want whenever they feel like it and they will make up rules to let themselves get away with it since the mass media can t tell the difference between a joke and the real thing like ranch appocolypse for the waco massacre don t count on them to help spread the word about their loss of freedom the government can make strong crypto illegal so what since the government does not obey any of its own rules why should we patience persistence truth reality dvader hemp imi hep anl gov dr mike home mrosing igc org
sci.crypt	citations for electronic cash papers please deeply grateful for citations to any papers on electronic cash schemes enquiring minds c eric weaver sony avtc river oaks pkwy ms sj ca chief engineer kfjc foothill college los altos hills ca
sci.crypt	re let s build software cryptophones for over the internet douglas craig holland holland cs colostate edu wrote in article c d r c p demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes in article rf s jqu sol tis com mjr tis com marcus j ranum writes i d really like to see such a thing developed so that interactive internet talk radio could be done ideally though it should be a general purpose device it should be a general purpose enough device that nobody should be able to balk at its widespread use obviously to make it easy for homebrewers it should use pretty common hardware why don t we move down even further toward the masses by setting this up on an ibm pc clone probably needs to be a or a with a sound blaster and a v bis modem those components are very widely i concur for a pc to pc version but for a interactive thing like internet talk radio it makes me cringe at the amount of hogging such a thing would do to the bandwidth of the internet i mean meg files getting floated around for internet talk radio is bad enough i have a solution use the phone system take your electronics and use them on point to point conversations through the phone and thats it if you need to tell someone something secret and very important wouldn t it make more sense to write it out concisely and if it s just a quick yo then use a code word and spend your twenty cents those good ol analog systems like shortwave telephones and tv s have a use don t gunk up a nice digital packet network trying to emulate them baxter baxter
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful in article apr ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes there are three issues with clipper the first is whether or not the architecture of the whole scheme is capable of working my answer with one significant exception is yes i really do think that nsa and nist have designed this scheme about as well as can be assuming that their real objectives are as stated to permit wiretapping under certain carefully controlled circumstances with a minimum risk of abuse the exception is that u exists outside of the chip on a programming diskette that s seriously wrong u and u should be loaded onto the chip separately to those who disagree and i don t claim my answer is obvious though i found my own reasoning sufficiently persuasive that i was forced to rewrite the conclusions section of my technical analysis paper i had originally blasted the scheme i issue this invitation assume that you were charged with implementing such a system with complete regard for civil rights and due process what would you do differently in answering this question please accept nsa s fundamental assumptions that both strong cryptography against outsiders and the ability to wiretap some domestic users is necessary if you feel it necessary to challenge those assumptions do it in the context of the last issue i present below right here i m discussing just the technical aspects and no i don t by any means claim that just because something can be done it should be ok steve here s a sketch of an alternative that i believe addresses most of the objections to the clipper scheme notation concatenation exclusive or e m k message m encrypted by key k d m k message m decrypted by key k h m hash digest signature of message m important values u x local chip unit key from escrow agency x u x remote chip unit key from escrow agency x n serial number of the local chip n serial number of the remote chip a number of escrow agencies k k session keys agreed upon external to this protocol f family key need not be secret protocol choose k k a such that k k k a remote chip does same for k k k a compute the following l e k u l a e k a u a l n e n l l a f remote chip does the same for l l a l send l to remote chip and receive l from remote chip compute ke h k n l l a k d l f kd h k d l f k n l l a note that d l f n l l a remote chip does the same for ke and kd user data is encrypted decrypted with keys ke ke kd kd assumptions no trap doors in e d and h h is not invertible algorithms for e d and h are secret otherwise a software implementation bogus chip could communicate with a real chip the chip only supports the following operation return n load k x return e k x u x return e n l l a f given e n l l a f return n l l a load k given e n l l a f compute ke kd given m return e m ke given m return d m kd anything programmed into the chip can be determined by destroying the chip u u a f n u u a can not be determined except by destroying the chip unfortunately this may not be true in reality i suppose it s possible to determine how a chip has been programmed with a sophisticated sp x ray machine to look for blown fuses the u s are programmed independantly by the escrow agencies notes for tapping escrow agency y is given n e k y u y n e k y u y and returns k y k y lea s must contact all escrow agencies with the serial numbers from both chips and the encrypted partial keys this allows the agencies to record that both chips were tapped lea s only get the session key not the key to all conversations of a particular chip this precludes real time decrypting of a conversation but that isn t one of the stated requirements observation in order for any secure by tap able communication scheme to work the active parts need to share a secret and if this secret is revealed communications by those that know the secret can be made un tap able obvious candidates are the cryptographic algorithm and the master family key relative size and complexity suggests that the key can be obtained from a silicon implementation of the scheme a lot easier and faster than the algorithm rsbx raymond s brand rbrand usasoc soc mil
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article bu edu uni acs bu edu shaen bernhardt writes think again you won t see me using apple s new signature from the finder feature why not it hasn t been released so there s no way for you to evaluate it yet after all apple could have been smart and had aoce use an md hash encrypted with rsa just like pkcs signatures they could even be actually pkcs compliant for all you know why not wait until it is released and hard information is available before passing judgement on it aoce s algorithm s aren t secret because apple s being fascistic aoce itself remains secret except for apple demos at macworld simply because it s not done yet it may be flawed and it may not however you can t tell which until you actually see it i at least am quite impressed with what i have seen so far and have no expectation of being disappointed amanda walker intercon systems corporation
sci.crypt	government intentions regarding encryptoion there is an article in communications week april s issue which states definitively that not only is the justice department trying to revive the wiretapping bill but they are also trying to find a way to force key registration clipper is an obvious thrust in exactly this direction dorothy dennings is quoted in this missive communications week april th page read it and get peeved folks then act now or lose your fundamental right to privacy clinton has shown us that his only interest in this has to do with abortion and not the right of all citizens to be secure in their papers and effects karl denninger karl genesis mcs com you can never please everyone except data line by bankrupting yourself live internet in chicago an mcsnet first
sci.crypt	re hearing on april in article rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes a personal desire for privacy most certainly will not be regarded as a legitimate need why do you want such strong security especially from legitimate law enforcement an individual with legitimate endeavors would not be so concerned government is not in the business of revealing your personal secrets to the public so you must be trying to conceal or planning to conceal some unlawful or criminal activity do you have something to hide hmmmm you have underlined here the battle that must be fought it is a battle for the hearts and minds of the american public people must realize that the government is not their a fit father confessor the government does not have a right to share our every thought the moment we decide to share that thought with someone else at a distance in order to protect ourselves from a government bent on undermining the constitution we must realize that our government is our enemy as much if not more than the soviet union ever was this is hard for some people who have been brought up with loyalty to our government cast as being synonmous with patriotism i expect that initially there will be some people selected either at random or who happen to have been troublemakers for the purposes of making an example for those who think the feds are not serious about this mega s we must be vigilant and make sure that we do not let such events go by unprotested we must be willing to fight the government at every step of the way that is what has me going so damned ballistic it is exactly how the logic goes when someone gives a tip that your home has been used to store drugs note no trace of drugs need to be found on the property only some bozo who will say yup i stored stuff in that dude s house probably to get out of a year sentence for dealing much more cost effective to let him walk to bust another day and hit the jackpot with your assets its time we rolled back this nonsense civil forfeiture is the most effective end run around the constitution that has ever been promulgated our enemy used to be the soviets now it is clearly our own government smg
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful restated and amplified in article apr wdl loral com koontzd phobos lrmsc loral com david koontz writes clipper also allows an extraordinary opportunity for the criminal to conceal use of super encryption an automated full system surveillance mechanism quite feasible across radio bandwidth which knows family key f can validate clipper wrappers and n esn associations but it cannot reveal in realtime the use of super encryption unless it knows all unit keys which we are being assured are only to be made available in two separate pieces upon specific wiretap like order the serial number will be in a bit block with a bit filler doesn t take a lot to check to see if that is correct yes but the extra encryption could be applied before the message is encrypted by the clipper so that the wrapper would be fine the phone s serial number and the session key would be in the law enforcement field etc but the message wouldn t be readable even if the particular clipper s key were obtained from the escrow agents in fact it shouldn t even be possible to detect that a message has been double encrypted without a court order right
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful restated and amplified in article wcs apr rainier att com wcs anchor ho att com bill stewart writes it is still easy to conceal super encryption at least until the inquisitors get ahold of the k key which can take a while presumably not in near real time worst case in which the escrow agencies provide the u key to the local cops still only gets one side of the conversation per warrant unless the same key is used for both directions which i suppose the capstone version of the chip will probably insist on i was under the impression from reading denning s description of the clipper s operation that the same session key is used in both directions for encrypting the message text but that each chip uses it s own key for encrypting the session key into the law enforcement field so you only need to know the u key for one of the phones involved to decrypt the messages in both directions
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr rick dgbt doc ca jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han writes in article bu edu uni acs bu edu shaen bernhardt writes text deleted to be quite honest the way things are going i d call it self defense i never advocated not saying what you believe in i m advocating second thought and calm a smart warrior defeats the enemy in ambush on the battlefield a smarter warrior defeats the enemy in open warfare on the battlefield the smartest warrior defeats the enemy without using the battlefield think about it i have my thesis was on sun tzu more to the point those who are called the good militarists of old could make opponents lost contact between front and back lines lose reliability between large and small groups lose mutual concern for the welfare of the different social classes among them lose mutual accomodation between the rulers and the ruled lose enlistments among the soldiers lose coherence within the armies they went into action when it was advantageous stopped when it was not today it is sitting on your hands will get you nowhere in this battle jerry han crc doc div of behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc ca these are my opinions and my opinions only a proud and frozen member of the mighty warriors band memories of those i ve left behind still ringing in my ears genesis uni acs bu edu uni acs bu edu public keys by finger and or request public key archives pgp public keys pgp iastate edu sovereignty is the sign of a brutal past fight clinton s wiretap chip df f b de b c c crypto is not a crime ask me how
sci.crypt	re write to clinton in article r a h t transfer stratus com cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison writes i ve been reading the sci crypt alt privacy clipper and comp org eff talk discussions about the clipper chip and find as usual that most of us think alike so there s a lot of repitition if each of these messages were sent to clinton as well as to the net or instead of to the net we might actually have some effect mcimail com white house is this white house e mail address really working yet someone posted such an address on compuserve a few months ago but apparently the white house wasn t really set up to recive hundreds thousands of messages a day to that account and didn t want people to use it yet so is this mci address something the people at the white house actually read or is it another craig shergold story i don t know i m just asking unless the people at the white house print and distribute this mail every day you may have better luck printing out a letter on paper that flat white stuff all over my desk and snail mailing it to the white house i imagine writing to your local representative and senator wouldn t hurt either heck why not write to al gore while you re at it greg greg brail citibank gjb fig citib com
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate jon lnes jon ifi uio no writes a person i know belonging to a research lab of a rivate company claimed to me during a priavte conversation that given the equipment in his lab he could crack a kerberos ticket in minutes to an hour he had access to rather powerful des hardware but not of an extraordinare kind i believe the attack was possible because of the amount of known plaintext in the ticket which itself constitutes a small message this was two years ago i don t believe you and i don t believe your friend why because des is not known to have any known plaintext attacks readily availble unless your friend knows something and is keeping it secret he was bullshitting you now it is possible that he noted a weakness in the implementation of the kerberos protocol for instance using a weak rng to generate keys might cut down on the keyspace not for the user keys for the other kind who s name i can t remember however this is not what was claimed you are claiming a general weakness in des which is not known to exist in the open literature don t get me wrong des is weaker than it should be however cracking it in minutes requires more money be spent on the cracking machine than any organization i know of has available perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	re write to clinton mcimail com white house is this white house e mail address really working yet someone posted such an address on compuserve a few months ago but apparently the white house wasn t really set up to recive hundreds thousands this is a real address my understanding of the current process that mail takes is it gets downloaded on floppy disk and is processed by retiree volunteers who match the message against message profiles and check the message count i e yeah that s a for gays in the military what s this clipper stuff must be against gays in the military the higher volume white house email stuff is in the works i know for a fact but won t be online for probably another month or two at the soonest my understanding is that the link speed will increase direct internet instead of compu erve to floppy but the message processing will remain the same unless the people at the white house print and distribute this mail every day you may have better luck printing out a letter on paper that flat white stuff all over my desk and snail mailing it to the white house i imagine writing to your local representative and senator wouldn t hurt either heck why not write to al gore while you re at it the white house email does get read i agree that printing it and sending cc to everyone you can think of is probably better because it is more visible but the message processing fitting messages against a template is the same in either case mjr
sci.crypt	re is it illegal to transmit encrypted data in article c ly gbx sugar neosoft com georgel neosoft com george livsey writes i am aware of the restrictions imposed by the munitions act on the export of cryptographic technology however is it illegal to transmit encrypted data from the u s to another country if so then which laws apply to this situation from the us law perspective unless you re engaging in illegal speech it s not illegal to use encryption yet the nsa is allowed to try to listen but you re not obligated to make it easy for them yet the other country may have more repressive laws about that i gather france s bureaucracy wants to know what you re saying and in the old soviet union they didn t need laws to make things illegal paranoia follows for those of you who want to play it safe the fact that the nsa is listening may affect your willingness to use wimpy crypto technologies but it may also affect your willingness to use technologies that violate rsa s patents e g if you use pgp the nsa may tell rsa that you re doing so and if the secret service catches on they may decide that the mere fact that rsa hasn t filed a lawsuit against you doesn t mean that you don t deserve to have your computer confiscated for possible patent violation munitions law violation espionage money laundering drug importation and creatin a disturbance and then not give it back because you did violate the patent even though they had to drop all the other charges unlike that nasty steve jackson who had the gall not to be guilty of anything pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	re tempest in article apr lynx dac northeastern edu angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu kirill shklovsky writes in article apr infodev cam ac uk rja cl cam ac uk ross anderson writes i m afraid this doesn t work either we can pick up laptop screens without any problem i heard somewhere can t name the source that tempest does not necessarily pick up just crts but it can pick up emissions from almost any chip if that is true the kind monitor would not make any difference becuase everything on the screen can be picked up from the video controller can anybody verify or refute this yes that s true tempest is nothing magic it s just listening to any available electromagnetic emissions and using all the analysis techniques you know to separate out the interesting stuff the nice thing about old crts is that they used to put out lots of signal so they re easy to detect and if you do your sync carefully you can watch the output on the monitor in your deceptively marked chevy step van some brands of electric typewriters were even worse in both cases it s especially nice because it gets you the data the user is looking at rather than whatever stuff the paging algorithm is paging out to disk etc with newer quieter equipment there isn t as much signal and it s harder to isolate the fun parts tempest rated equipment has much lower signal levels but everything has vibrations as master chuan said pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	re dorothy denning opposes clipper capstone wiretap chips in apr eff org mnemonic eff org mike godwin writes in article c bj bk agora rain com jhart agora rain com jim hart writes the security of the system should depend only on the secrecy of the keys and not on the secrecy of the algorithms dorothy denning cite source please cryptography and data security page perhaps
sci.crypt	amiga ripem has anyone ported ripem to the amiga yet or is anyone working on it emailed responses are fine ken guyton emory university preferred uskmg unix cc emory edu information technology division uucp gatech emoryu uskmg atlanta ga non domain bitnet uskmg emoryu phone fax
sci.crypt	re tempest in article apr lynx dac northeastern edu angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu kirill shklovsky writes in article apr infodev cam ac uk rja cl cam ac uk ross anderson writes i m afraid this doesn t work either we can pick up laptop screens without any problem most of the so called low radiation monitors are also useless the description turns out to a marketing assertion rather than an engineering one we thought there might be a market for a monitor which was not as hugely expensive as the military tempest kit but which was well enough shielded to stop eavesdropping using available receivers we built a prototype it works and it s still sitting on my lab bench commercial interest was exactly zero in the absence of open standards a monitor which really is low radiation and costs dollars more can t compete against a monitor which just claims to be low radiation and whose only extra cost of production is the pretty blue sticker on the box ross i heard somewhere can t name the source that tempest does not necessarily pick up just crts but it can pick up emissions from almost any chip if that is true the kind monitor would not make any difference becuase everything on the screen can be picked up from the video controller can anybody verify or refute this just thought of something yes laptops can still be read but it s not quite as easy as a normal pc with a crt my thought airline pilots lately have been complaining about how laptops being used in flight mess with the plane s instruments if this can be hyped up manufacturers may start building laptops with even lower emmisions it would probably still be possible to pick up with surveillance equipment but at this point it would be a lot cheaper to mask the remaining signals with tempest techniques doug holland doug holland anyone who tries to take away my freedom holland cs colostate edu of speech will have to pry it from my pgp key available by e mail cold dead lips
sci.crypt	re implementing a diffie hellman key exchange you should probably use numbers much larger than bits also you may want to include some randomly generated bitstrings in your protocol this way if someone should find the shared key you and another person use on one day they won t be able to guess it for the next day ie a sends g a mod p and random string r b sends g b mod p and random string r both find g a mod p b mod p shared key then both calculate session key hash r shared key r also you will want to make sure that you re getting the right public key value g a mod p someone with the power to intercept and change messages can oterwise spoof you by sending both of you his public key and then acquiring a session key with each of you john
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful in article apr microsoft com gideony microsoft com gideon yuval writes if these personal attacks are what stopped prof denning from replying on issues of substance they have cause real harm to the serious debate here they are and they have david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	comments on clipper for publication i am writing an article on clipper for network world i am looking for comments and opinions that i can quote on the scheme its implications for security and privacy its acceptance here and overseas etc i hope this to be a balenced article with opinions from various quarters the only catch is that your name and company affiliation will appear in print i am on very tight deadline i need to finish this wednesday night please call or e mail responses thanks bruce
sci.crypt	re does rush read his e mail in apr henson cc wwu edu n henson cc wwu edu sean dean writes but i have no idea of a compuserve e mail address compuserve com ken jongsma smiths industries jongsma swdev si com grand rapids michigan compuserve com
sci.crypt	a trojan horse on the clipper gentlefolk it seems to me that the step of taking a warrant to the telco to get a wiretap is so much stinky red herring don t you love animal metaphors with each phone broadcasting the serial number of its chip e n f is not syntactically different than n all they have to do is aim a reciever in the general direction of today s target and use the serial number to identify the session they want and get the chip number of the other end of the conversation even without the key this is great for traffic analysis i can think of several ways to learn the right serial number it looks like one intended effect of the clipper is to eliminate the awkward business of getting the telco to cooperate or risking getting caught in the act with your alligator clips erect this is particularly handy if you have s and s btw did anyone explain why they are scrambling the serial number cheers marc marc thibault marc tanda isis org automation architect cis r r oxford mills ontario canada nc freenet aa
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr rick dgbt doc ca jerry han writes guess what people you live in one of the few countries in the world where a person can complain without getting shot at only guessing but from his address i d say that jerry like me lives in canada unlike me he thinks that our friends in the us enjoy the same freedom that we do and he has not seen the slow but steady erosion to the south of us we have the benefit of relatively slow politicians and ineffective law enforcement our rednecks tend to be the objects of derision rather than elected officials it s everything le can do to keep up with the real criminals any time they actually go after somebody just because they don t like his or her attitude it s national news it also often blows up in their faces eg the well intentioned but flawed zundel case which resulted in a scolding from the supreme court not only to le for prosecuting the case but to parliament for passing the law it was prosecuted under our friends south of the border don t have as easy a time of it among other things they have as many le agencies as we have agencies and some of them have teeth they also have the war on drugs which gives law enforcement agencies exceptional powers to ignore individuals rights the dea has more arbitrary power than that given to canadian agencies under the war measures act we have the rcmp and csis who can t stop fighting each other long enough to do any really effective suppression of private citizens rights not only that our police commissions have teeth as i learned when i had to fend off a bent cop it may be ironic that the nation founded on life liberty and the pursuit of happiness is getting government imposed order while the nation founded on peace order and good government is getting in your face liberty that s not to say our time won t come it looks like chretien is going to run on a law and order platform be afraid cheers marc marc thibault marc tanda isis org automation architect cis r r oxford mills ontario canada nc freenet aa
sci.crypt	re do we need the clipper for cheap security in article rdippold qualcom ron asbestos dippold writes the only thing that worries me is that compression the soundblaster can do it automatically in hardware but other than that i don t have a good feel for how processor intensive it is so i can t estimate how fast a pc you d need there s a better way doesn t qualcom have a secure design that it decided not to market since they aren t going to use it wouldn t the patriotic thing be to put the design in the public domain how about selling a cryptography educational kit with the critical parts something that could end up as a pc option board with two phone jacks cheers marc marc thibault marc tanda isis org automation architect cis r r oxford mills ontario canada nc freenet aa
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography in article apr news clarkson edu dwight tuinstra writes great slogan i m ready to sign up with a crypto lobbying effort though i wouldn t want to do it through an nra offshoot shall we also push for the cra cryptographic rights amendment looking at it from up here in the frozen north it looks like you could do worse than get the nra involved they have a kindred problem a large number of voters the right attitude and lots of funds from an ethical or constitutional viewpoint i haven t seen a good argument for cryptographic rights that doesn t also support the nra position on guns and vice versa cheers marc marc thibault marc tanda isis org automation architect cis r r oxford mills ontario canada nc freenet aa
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr rick dgbt doc ca jerry han writes a smart warrior defeats the enemy in ambush on the battlefield a smarter warrior defeats the enemy in open warfare on the battlefield the smartest warrior defeats the enemy without using the battlefield y all got the first two reversed judge roy bean
sci.crypt	re new encryption algorithm in article raeir be access digex net steve b access digex com steve brinich writes well actually this one s easy it s their job the nsa is supposed to develop cryptosystems if the government chooses to go ahead and sell those cryptosystems to the masses so be it ah but developing cryptosystems which are specificially designed to protect the government s domestic spying capabilities takes them beyond that mandate into the forbidden field of domestic wiretapping but the nsa will not be doing any wiretapping the actual wiretapping will presumably be conducted by the fbi of course the capability for this was provided by the nsa but i think that they are still within the limitations of their charter i realize this is a fine point and some may differ but this is my opinion although i don t care for clipper and won t support or use it i don t see the nsa as having overstepped their bounds david r conrad no his mind is not for rent to any god or government cat talk conferencing network computer conferencing and file archive bps bps v v bis turbopep new users use new as a login id available via pc pursuit city code midet e mail address dave michigan com
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful restated and amplified in article apr random ccs northeastern edu rogue ccs northeastern edu free radical writes no no no no no no no it will go like this feds we need the key to phone re d escrow you have a warrant to tap the line phone re d is on feds yes escrow fine here is our key rogue cs neu edu rogue agent sod it also goes like this fed we need to listen into mafia head druglord terrorist bbs sysop s conversations but don t have probable cause for a tap fed who do we have a tap on fed some other enemy of the state fed so get the keys we can always claim that phone s being used on the tapped line there s got to be some way to associate an instrument with an individual or the state effectively has a tap possibly not admissible given the war on drugs exceptions to the ammendments who knows but none the less listenable tap on any phone charles mattair work mattair synercom hounix org standard disclaimer home cgm elmat synercom hounix org in a mature society civil servant is semantically equivalent to civil master robert heinlein the notebooks of lazarus long
sci.crypt	re fifth amendment and passwords in article apr cs aukuni ac nz pgut cs aukuni ac nz writes in c jzsz jzo cs uiuc edu kadie cs uiuc edu carl m kadie writes looks like you can t be forced to reveal a password if anyone can provide a convincing legal argument to the contrary ie an actual court case i d be most interested this is the case in britain according to the head of the computer crime unit here when i interviewed him a couple of months ago wg wendy m grossman a north avenue kew founder the skeptic uk richmond surrey tw lz freelance writer recovering folksinger
sci.crypt	re let s build software cryptophones for over the internet hmmm celp takes up about mips for full duplex and has been implemented on about a million dsp chips the card in my pc only cost about and i m sure once demand goes up the prices would drop the analog devices board that we re looking at now cost about academic price i don t think hardware is something to worry about if you get it working people will snap up internet phone cards like there was no tomorrow what we need here is a good implementation of celp the government code is absolute crap i got a speedup after looking at it for a couple of hours and modifications to pgp to allow it to compress decompress bit frames every msec i think the ad should have enough juice for this mips as part of the project i m working on now we re trying to get celp up and running in realtime full duplex mode i gotta find the source to pgp and see how tough it would be to integrate the en decryption parts into the code i ll play with it anyone else out there got an ad setup ed see lidflip instructions on edward hutchins eah cec wustl edu other side of card
sci.crypt	re tempest in article apr lynx dac northeastern edu angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu kirill shklovsky writes i heard somewhere can t name the source that tempest does not necessarily pick up just crts but it can pick up emissions from almost any chip if that is true the kind monitor would not make any difference becuase everything on the screen can be picked up from the video controller can anybody verify or refute this as anyone who attended hohocon will attest you can pick information off the video chip it s surprisingly easy too the guy did it with a portable tv with very minor mods it only worked from feet but then it was just a demonstration ra rogue cs neu edu rogue agent sod the nsa is now funding research not only in cryptography but in all areas of advanced mathematics if you d like a circular describing these new research opportunities just pick up your phone call your mother and ask for one
sci.crypt	basic crypto requirements in order to have formulate a rational position on what cryptography policies are acceptable we must set forth a list of basic requirements i would propose the following as a starting point the algorithm must be publicly known and must have a record of surviving attempts by outside experts to find weaknesses the system implementation must make it possible to verify that the advertised algorithm is in fact the one that is being used the key must be quickly changeable by the user and must be of a sufficient length and complexity to defeat any brute force search possible now or in the reasonably near future note that these requirements are not incompatible with some form of key escrow system the may issue of byte describes an example of an encryption system which can clearly be implemented in a manner consistent with the above requirements while requiring that parts of the key be escrowed in order to have one s public key listed by a central distributor
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful yuan scws harvard edu nina yuan writes i m not a lawyer and i don t even play one on tv but intuitively there s something wrong with having one s words archived for possible future use against you this possibility frightens me more than any of the talk about the clipper chip right to cryptography etc i can just imagine it the mother is wheeled into the labour ward after delivery a government agent steps up to read the baby its rights you have the right to remain silent if you give up this right anything you say may be taken down and used in evidence against you waaaaaaaaah anthony shipman you ve got to be taught before it s too late cp software export pty ltd before you are six or seven or eight cato st east hawthorn to hate all the people your relatives hate melbourne australia you ve got to be carefully taught r h e mail als cpsg com au
sci.crypt	pd code for crypt like encryption i am looking for some public domain and exportable code for encryption nothing elaborate just something that will satisfy a marketing need oh yes unix platform jerry natowitz guest user on arpa jin ursa major spdcc com uucp ima harvard rayssd linus m c spdcc jin
sci.crypt	birthday attack i recently saw a message here posted by bob silverman i think which referred to a birthday attack on a cryptosystem i m looking for references on and explanations of this type of attack thanks paul
sci.crypt	re tempest in apr random ccs northeastern edu rogue ccs northeastern edu free radical writes as anyone who attended hohocon will attest you can pick information off the video chip it s surprisingly easy too the guy did it with a portable tv with very minor mods it only worked from feet but then it was just a demonstration a convention for santa claus impersonators please elaborate enquiring minds those in the second and third jars from the left want to know peter
sci.crypt	re clipper and conference calls quoting dougb ecs comm mot com in article apr lmpsbbs comm mot com you would have to use something other than the at t black box in other words i don t think public key would work the session key would have to be agreed upon prior to the conversation and distributed to all sites beforehand why can t one site decide a session key and send it to the other sites by public key encryption o paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk trust me i know what i m doing x fold a fish for jesus
sci.crypt	re pd code for crypt like encryption in article apr spdcc com jin spdcc com jerry natowitz writes i am looking for some public domain and exportable code for encryption nothing elaborate just something that will satisfy a marketing need oh yes unix platform you can find what you re looking for on hundreds of sites worldwide try anonymous ftp to nic funet fi finland pub unix bsd net lib libc gen crypt c z this includes source code for fully functional des encryption and decryption there are some who believe that public domain code is exportable some who don t make your own judgements but it seems obvious to me regards ed hamrick
sci.crypt	re is it illegal to transmit encrypted data wcs anchor ho att com bill stewart writes the fact that the nsa is listening may affect your willingness to use wimpy crypto technologies but it may also affect your willingness to use technologies that violate rsa s patents e g if you use pgp the nsa may tell rsa that you re doing so and if the secret service catches on i m afraid i have to disagree with you on that point nsa will not tell rsa or any other non dod entity anything that its eavesdropping reveals that includes the fbi and secrect service although there have been rare exceptions
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography jgfoot minerva cis yale edu josh a goldfoot writes tarl neustaedter tarl coyoacan sw stratus com wrote it means that the eff s public stance is complicated with issues irrelevant to the encryption issue per se there may well be people who care about the encryption issue who don t care to associate themselves with the network erotica issue or may even disagree with the eff s position perhaps these encryption only types would defend the digitized porn if it was posted encrypted these issues are not as seperable as you maintain well regardless of what policy liabilities anyone in washington may think eff has it is going ahead aggressively attacking the assumptions that are behind the administrations clipper chip initiative for all the reasons stated here in washington you have to work under the assumption that everyone has some liabilities government and non governmental organizations alike all share the same glass house eff is variously identified as the hacker defense fund the first amendment absolutists the new communists etc but it is also an acknowledged leader in the civil liberties arena and is respected as a serious player in the policy circles so unless there is another organization with the credibility and clout and right policy stance that you know of in washington please don t count eff out as a valid representative of your views in the clipper chip matter cliff figallo fig eff org eff online guy
sci.crypt	re pgp where to get it at the moment pgp is available in executable format for ms dos and mac and source code for most other platforms including unix many ftp sites keep a copy although the mac version is getting hard to find try the following site soda berkeley edu pub cypherpunks pgp for those with out ftp access try nitv bbs see sig i have the following all from nic funet fi garbo uwasa fi sony com and ftp uni erlangen de platform execs source patch src xtras bbs file area fido freqname dos x x x login pgpdos pgpsdos mac x x nonibm pgpmac pgpsmac amiga x nonibm pgpami archimedes x nonibm pgparc os x win pgpos next x nonibm pgpnxt unix x x nonibm pgpunx haven t looked in the archive to see if it has source or not usually because i can t handle the format for fidonet freq magic names the pgps names are source code others are either execs or execs src extras or in the case of next just a patch you still need one of the full source code packages nitv bbs is free this is not an ad it is a public service announcement testes saxi solidi podex opacus gravedinosus est stanton mccandlish sysop noise in the void data center bbs indranet fidonet internet anton hydra unm edu data phone hr v bis n
sci.crypt	re new encryption algorithm in article raeir be access digex net steve b access digex com steve brinich writes well actually this one s easy it s their job the nsa is supposed to develop cryptosystems if the government chooses to go ahead and sell those cryptosystems to the masses so be it ah but developing cryptosystems which are specificially designed to protect the government s domestic spying capabilities takes them beyond that mandate into the forbidden field of domestic wiretapping unlike the cia the nsa has no prohibition against domestic spying read bamford s the puzzle palace bruce i have that book and the way i read it is one side of the conversation must be from outside the united states of coures that ass u mes that the nsa plays by the rules jeff hupp internet jhupp shockwave win net medowglen apt ad contract programming novell houston texas network design and support voice the best govenment doesn t me
sci.crypt	re new encryption algorithm in article c rdq v chinet chi il us schneier chinet chi il us bruce schneier writes unlike the cia the nsa has no prohibition against domestic spying read bamford s the puzzle palace we had a senior nsa scientist in cambridge at one of our workshops recently in fact he was here when the clipper announcement was made but we didn t learn of it till after he d gone he said on this point that he was forbidden by law to monitor conversations between us nationals and he is a chap who is very precise about his choice of words so i don t expect he d have any qualms about monitoring a domestic us conversation if one of the parties was an alien however it got me thinking of the navajo code talkers just imagine hello is that the iraqi mission in new york this is the iraqi foreign ministry in baghdad i am farouq hussein us citizen social security number so and so yes indeed this is the new york mission mustafa jadid speaking also a us citizen my social security number is such and such here is our report on activities against the satan clinton ross this one is easy they tape the conversation call the fbi or secret service you see activities against the satan clinton could be construed as a threat against the president of the united states i am sure they nsa fbi ss have enough judges in their collective pockets to have a warrent before the call is over jeff hupp internet jhupp shockwave win net medowglen apt ad contract programming novell houston texas network design and support voice the best govenment doesn t me
sci.crypt	re what would happen if export restrictions violated in c rt bc chinet chi il us schneier chinet chi il us bruce schneier writes in article apr yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes ok i heard a lot of talk about the nsa s infamous control over encryption export through the itar here s a question say i develop this great new encryption system and i want to sell my software worldwide the thought police then come in and say this algorithm is a threat to national security you will not be permitted to export it at this point what kind of trouble could i get into if i ignored the itar and sold my program to international customers anyway doug holland you would be arrested as an international arms trafficker there are several things in itar which have never been tested in court the concensus appears to be you could be arrested as an international arms trafficker you could regardless of the state of the law but there are some paragraphs which suggest you would be violating the law if it goes to court the itars could be thrown out is incompatible with the first amendment or the court could rule that software is technical data not subject to the itars or the court could rule that the phrase publicly available as defined in the itars would apply making it only subject to requiring a general export license or you could be prosecuted successfully for arms trafficing or espionage general concensus among lawyers who have read the itars is that one of the first two would occur arthur l rubin a rubin dsg dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful restated and amplified in article strnlghtc ka ifd netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes brad yearwood posts a long response to the issue of registering a phone clipper relationship it doesn t wash recall that law enforcement gets a court order to tap a suspect s phone calls they do what they do now figure out which lines to tap they then record the stuff if it s clipper they read the law enforcement block extract the serial number and get the keys using the court order no new difficulties such as using someone else s phone instrument or phone line are introduced that wouldn t have existed absent clipper if the crooks were going to use a pay phone say they could have done so without clipper if the government figures out they re so doing they listen in and if it s a clipper conversation they get the serial number and then the keys if the crooks use an innocent person s clipper phone on the tapped line there s no problem the feds don t care whose phone instrument is used just that the conversation is by the suspect on the tapped line they get the serial number get the keys and they are in business no clipper chip to person association is ever needed david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful restated and amplified in article wcs apr rainier att com wcs anchor ho att com bill stewart writes the serial number will be in a bit block with a bit filler doesn t take a lot to check to see if that is correct depends on whether the filler is a constant makes checking easy but susceptible to replay or variable e g timer counter random which makes replay harder and can also make it easier for the inquisitors to know if they ve missed messages or gotten them out of sequence or other interesting things that sort of person might care about i d use a secret nope obscure cryptographic encoding to expand the bit serial number to a bit block the redundancy hereby introduced can be used to detect tampered clipper signals where some public enemy replaced the l e block by random data and of course the l e block would be used to initialise the encryption of the user data so that at the receiving end the correct l e block must be processed in order to have any chance of getting the plaintext back for those of you who might want to mangle the l e block e g by xor ing a constant pattern on the transmission line and restore it before feeding it into the receiving crippler chip i would add further encrypted copies of this block perhaps created by repeated application of the encryption algorithm or so at regular intervals during the transmission if the receiving chip detects a mismatch it must assume that the line is bad and it will cease to work in your own interest you are protected from getting faulty plaintext you know it s just like a checksum for your own safety the monitoring agencies won t have the famous black box which is needed for actual decryption and will be kept by the fbi but nothing prevents them from using special boxes which will do the redundancy check for the serial number block and consistency checks on the embedded l e blocks within the transmission these boxes will turn a red light on as soon as they detect a bitstream that violates the correct protocol so don t anyone think that you can use the chip and fool l e about the tapping key i bet the developpers have provided much better checks than those suggested above of course it s absolutely crucial that the algorithms and protocols remain secret personally i doubt they will detlef lannert dc ek e mail tsos rz uni duesseldorf de pgp key via server or finger lannert clio rz uni duesseldorf de i am psmith oh you re smith are you with a preliminary p which however is not sounded p g wodehouse
sci.crypt	re the secret source of that announcement in article r m enn news intercon com amanda intercon com amanda walker writes compuserve is in columbus oh so are the corporate headquarters of several major insurance companies the largest private r d company in the world batelle memorial institute dcsc the defense construction supply center ohio state university one of the three largest us universities oclc the online college library center and so on you d be amazed actually don t forget chemical abstracts service which is pretty much the international clearinghouse for all chemical information whose former director ronald wigington and head of r d nick farmer were openly former nsa employees james parker jap cb focus att com
sci.crypt	summary how sensible is des towards bit errors hi i d like to thank you all for the fast responses special thanks go to those who replied lexical order marcus j ranum mjr tis com paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk pausch saaf se paul schlyter tarnold vnet ibm com todd w arnold wcs anchor ho att com bill stewart my question was how sensible is des encrypted data towards bit errors how much data per bit will be lost in average i assume you still have the correct key how much of the des encrypted data is affected depends on the used encryption mode according to marcus j ranum mjr tis com there is cfb cipher feedback mode ecb electronic code book mode cbc cipher block chaining mode ofb output feedback mode each mode does some stuff better than others ofb and cfb are designed for communications streams more than for files unfortunally people strongly disagree which mode will lead to destruction of all of the following data sure seems that some modes will resync quite fast others will never others will even only effect the very block summarized people said concerning this matter in cbc mode only the current block will be affected tarnold vnet ibm com todd w arnold if you use cbc cihper block chaining then the remainder of the data will be destroyed as well pausch saaf se paul schlyter in cfb mode des synchronizes quite fast probably within block according to maracus j ranum mjr tis com maybe someone definitely knows what happens in which mode nevertheless thank you all very much again axel dunkel i include the responses i got from tarnold vnet ibm com todd w arnold in ad cat axel dunkel writes how sensible is des encrypted data towards bit errors how much data per bit will be lost in average i assume you still have the correct key it depends on the mode you re using for a single bit input block a one bit error will have a percent chance of corrupting each of the output bits in other words it essentially turns the output block into a random number if you re encrypting data in cbc mode however only the one bit block will be affected the next block and all that follow it will be decrypted properly it s a good idea to have some kind of error correction in your system if corrupted bits are likely todd from pausch saaf se paul schlyter in article ad cat you write hello how sensible is des encrypted data towards bit errors how much data per bit will be lost in average i assume you still have the correct key at least bytes of data will be destroyed if one bit encrypted data is in error if you use cbc cihper block chaining then the remainder of the data will be destroyed as well des is very seisitive for single bit errors this is as it should be paul schlyter swedish amateur astronomer s society saaf nybrogatan a tr s stockholm sweden internet pausch saaf se from paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk how sensible is des encrypted data towards bit errors how much data per bit will be lost in average i assume you still have the correct key probably very bad you might lose the rest of the data stream if you want safety against dropped bits use an error correcting coder like the freeware gnu ecc o paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk trust me i know what i m doing x fold a fish for jesus from wcs anchor ho att com how sensible is des encrypted data towards bit errors how much data per bit will be lost in average i assume you still have the correct key it depends on the mode you re using des in electronic code book ecb takes a block of input bits and produces output bits so if any bits are changed the entire block of bits becomes bad i forget which feedback mode is which in all of them the results of encrypting one block affect later blocks with some modes the system self synchronizes so errors are repaired in a few blocks with other modes once one block is bad all later blocks will be bad too there s also the framing problem if you have a bit change the block that it s in changes and maybe later blocks also change but if you have bits lost or bits added bits in or bits out everything is confused after that from marcus j ranum mjr tis com depends on the mode you re using cfb for example synchronises pretty fast figure a bit error will destroy the current block and the next one mjr experience is what you get if you don t get what you want systemberatung axel dunkel koenigsberger strasse d kriftel germany e mail ad cat de voice fax
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful restated and amplified brad optilink com brad yearwood writes in article apr lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger writes you obviously haven t read the information about the system the chips put out serial number infomation into the cypher stream to allow themselves to be identified the system does not rely on registering people as owning particular phone units i am against the proposal but lets be accurate in our objections do not presume to tell me what i have and have not read the system may not rely upon registering people as owning particular phone units but it is necessary to know which phone units are likely to be used for some suspected criminal communication before you can obtain their unit keys from escrow big deal if you are a legitimate law enforcement agent and have a legitimate wiretap order you just listen in on the line for minutes get the serial number and then take the order and go to the escrow agencies if you notice the criminal is now using a different phone instrument take your still valid wiretap order to the escrow agency with the new serial number this provides opportunities for abuse by law enforcement but thats not what we are discussing right now i oppose clipper but the mechanics here are simple and easy to understand the whole rest of your article is based on a large series of false premises all predicated on the notion that this simple act is somehow impossible i feel free to presume to tell you that you do not seem to understand the mechanics of the proposal arguing that terrorists will be killing people for their clipper phones is silly because its pointless lets be alarmist about what really would show up as a problem shall we perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han writes in article rens apr stimpys imsi com rens imsi com rens troost writes in this giant bally ho over this clipper chip i noticed a rather disturbing trend in some of the e mail and posts i ve tossing back and forth me too a tendency on the part of some people to hide their head in the sand i never advocated hiding in the sand i m advocating a peaceful solution while a peaceful solution is possible unless you want blood on your hands no one has mentioned violence other than you mr han i believe you are imagining things perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	re does rush read his e mail in article apr esseye si com jongsma tws si com writes in apr henson cc wwu edu n henson cc wwu edu sean dean writes but i have no idea of a compuserve e mail address compuserve com however he said on his radio show today that he won t read anything from the two alt groups he simply deletes them without reading them he says that some of the people in the two groups are vicious ken jongsma smiths industries jongsma swdev si com grand rapids michigan compuserve com
sci.crypt	re new encryption algorithm in article shockwave win net jhupp shockwave win net jeff hupp writes in article raeir be access digex net steve b access digex com steve brinich writes some deleted unlike the cia the nsa has no prohibition against domestic spying read bamford s the puzzle palace bruce i have that book and the way i read it is one side of the conversation must be from outside the united states of coures that ass u mes that the nsa plays by the rules one thing that seems ambiguous is whether a signal being echoed down from geosynchronous orbit is from outside the united states also being able to assess whether nsa is playing by the rules requires knowing what the rules are we only know a subset for those even more suspicious there could be other surveillance organizations blacker than the nsa bryan l allen bryan devvax jpl nasa gov telos corp jpl
sci.crypt	re dorothy denning opposes clipper capstone wiretap chips the security of the system does depend only on the secrecy of the keys the ability to tap is an inherent insecurity which depends fundamentally on the secrecy of the algorithm to spell it out because so many people seem to miss the point if the algorithm were published anyone could create a chip which would work correctly with the skipjack chips but which would not have its key registered i believe there is no technical means of ensuring key escrow without the government maintaining a secret of some kind for example the secret could be the private keys of the escrow agencies their digital signatures would be required before a key could be used in this case the nsa nist whoever has decided that protecting the entire algorithm is easier cheaper more secure than other possible protocols kian tat lim ktl wag caltech edu genie k lim materials molecular simulation center caltech henry spencer left of margaret puckette signature fan
sci.crypt	help where is faq for sci crypt and other questions dear netters i have been scanning this news group for a while but has not found a faq could someone enlight me where to find the faq if there is a one also could someone recommend a few good books about encription and decription about patent information goverment regulation on this science technology i will appreciate any of your help very much sincerely bi chen
sci.crypt	re dorothy denning opposes clipper capstone wiretap chips in article allen well sf ca us allen well sf ca us allen barrett ethridge writes in apr eff org mnemonic eff org mike godwin writes in article c bj bk agora rain com jhart agora rain com jim hart writes the security of the system should depend only on the secrecy of the keys and not on the secrecy of the algorithms dorothy denning cite source please cryptography and data security page perhaps thanks got that from two other sources as well the full quote is as follows from dorothy denning cryptography and data security addison wesley page cryptosystems must satisfy three general requirements the enciphering and deciphering transformations must be efficient for all keys the system must be easy to use the security of the system should depend only on the secrecy of the keys and not on the secrecy of algorithms e enciphering or d deciphering mike mike godwin ariel rose godwin mnemonic eff org born at pm in cambridge pounds ounces inches long eff cambridge a new citizen of the electronic frontier
sci.crypt	re suggestions for escrow agencies was re more technical details in article c y k vcd hp com johne vcd hp com john eaton writes paul robichaux robichau lambda msfc nasa gov wrote as a private citizen i would feel much more secure in my person and papers knowing that an organization committed to individual civil liberties the aclu and the nra come to mind was safeguarding half of my key both the aclu and the nra are resistent to government pressure by the simple expedient fact that they are not supported funded or overtly controlled by the government thats one problem that has so far been overlooked these two escrow agencies will have to create a secure database and service the input and output of keys who pays for this if they refuse an illegal request from some congressman to deliver a key can their budget by cut to punish them will congress be forced to fund them forever congress isn t forced to do anything not even follow their own rules if it isn t expedient if caught with their collective pants down they make some funny noises perhaps crucify a skapegoat or two then continue business as usual i notice those senators involved with the s l scandal weren t hurt too much if at all deconcini s personal stake in suppliers to those big aerostats hasn t affected his credibility at all inside congress at least he is still pushing his police state agenda the problem is that laws can change congress may pass a law setting up an escrow agency with instructions that keys are private some future congress may change that law suppose pre nazi germany had a clipper system do you think the escrow agencies would have told hitler that he could not have the keys without a valid court order it will be like the old saw in new jersey and new york chicago etc when the politicians promised that this spiffy new gun registration law will not be used for future confiscation purposes sure enough a few years later when they were used just for that purpose and folks complained the response was well i didn t make that promise some politicians may not even wait a few years escrowed keys would have the same assurances of security besides if someone wants to snoop how are you to know you don t think they will send you a letter saying we are now snooping on your private conversations do you what are the assurances the escrow people will not be forbidden to report any access attempts for one s keys so much for government assurances of privacy in effect you must set up escrow agencies as a fourth branch of the goverment and isolate them from any outside interferance they will be able to directly tap into federal funds with no accountability to anyone except through a court challenge how the feds will just change the law or just ignore it nothing new here they got the muscle the resources the guns as an aside since export of crypto is verboten because of itar shouldn t the second amendment also come into play here john eaton hp vcd johne pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only in article warlord apr podge mit edu warlord mit edu derek atkins writes in article strnlghtc t d jn netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes some countries have laws about importing crypto gear i believe the u s does without a license the above scheme won t work at least not legally in such countries including at least france and the u s david bzzt wrong the us does not have crypto import laws i d not be so sure about that are there any munitions import laws and could those be used against importation of crypto hardware software as well as firearms importing so called assault weapons for use by commoners come to mind note talk politics guns added to newsgroups for possible feedback pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger writes no one has mentioned violence other than you mr han i believe you are imagining things this is factually incorrect there was at least one message that said that waco and clipper justified anything in response david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	how to make this illuminating thing in some hobby shop they sell a flexible tube inch diameter inch ling that will illuminate if you bend or shake it it is also sold in amusement parks in the evenings the brightness can last to hours if it is left in refrigrator in coldness you can prolong its life of illumination is this something we can make ourself easily or do you know any reading can provide details about this stuff working with kids it would be nice if it can be a do it yourself project with minimum budget
sci.crypt	re i have seen the lobby and it is us in article c xxga gav ms uky edu morgan engr uky edu wes morgan writes you should realize that form letters are the worst way to influence your congresscritters exact copies are routinely placed on the lowest rung of the opinion ladder if you want to write and i think you should take the time to really write a letter things to emphasize excellent and helpful list deleted be concise don t ramble rants are definitely out of place cite references if necessary but only use accepted references like academic journals my neighbor jim is not a real refer ence wes s list is of do s and don t s for writing your congressional representatives is a fine one but i d like to encourage people to pay extra attention to the point above as cliched as the saying may be it s nevertheless true that you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar while the writing styles prevalent on the net possess a certain charm please remember that the person reading your letter is likely to be uninfluenced or negatively influenced if you express your concerns in a way that makes you sound like a flake or a paranoid crackpot wild and unsupported accusations about the menace from the nsa will not carry much weight nor are overblown conclusions about the inevitable consequences of the proposal likely to convince especially not ones that attempt strained analogies to the rise of the nazi party please save the niemoller quote for another letter if you want your opinions to be taken seriously it is very important that you state those opinions in a manner that is understandable and seems reasonable to a layman don t overburden your reader with technical details or expect them to know the history of various encryption technologies before you mail it hand your letter to a non technical friend and ask them to sanity check it above all realize that legislators are often motivated as much by self interest as by anything else try to point out risks in terms that will be meaningful and motivating to them such as the loss of individual privacy rights or the damage restrictive export regulations do to american businesses ability to compete in the global marketplace pull the strings that you think will work with your legislator if your legislator is unlikely to be swayed by civil rights concerns then point out how a government granted monopoly for mycotronx damages the competitiveness of businesses in your district that manufacture or market phone or crypto technology mcnally
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes well that explains it the government has no real need to spy on people who already love big brother it s the people who are inclined to talk back who need to be watched though i think this an overstatement it does contain a grain of truth it s drug dealers spies terrorists and organized crime figures assuming enough probable cause to convince a judge who need to be watched not law abiding citizens and thus cointelpro in which horrible people who threatened the republic by disagreeing with the government were systematically kept track of for years perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	forbidden to reveal wiretap if it s forbidden to inform someone of a police wiretap on their phone then is it legal to work privtely as a sweeper and report to the person you work for whether you found a bug
sci.crypt	clipper and backdoors david sternlight says it discredits the writer with third parties to claim clipper has a back door it does not actually david i don t think it s any more intellectually honest to say there are no backdoors than to say there are backdoors unless you ve had a chance to examine the algorithm and the silicon closely for all we know skipjack could be easily broken or impossible to break and clearly if skipjack is not secure then the clipper chip is not worth much john kelsey
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful sternlight writes gideon yuval writes if these personal attacks are what stopped prof denning from replying on issues of substance they have cause real harm to the serious debate here they are and they have if prof denning is afraid of posting here due to personal attacks perhaps she should use an anonymous posting service that is why they are there to allow heated debate to occur without the personal attacks is anon penet back up yet thomas
sci.crypt	re subliminal channels in dss may i suggest that any any proposed cipher system having less entropy than the user s key and message can have an embedded subliminal channel as big as the difference in entropies between the entropy of the user input message and the entropy of the output for example take plain des the unsuspecting user inputs a string plaintext to be enciphered he cranks the algorithm which has been hacked by george quisling and comes out with j h d nine char in and nine chars out right the unsepecting user ships the ciphertext to be decrpyted and the message plaintext is produced everything fine right nope imagine the algorithm did a lz compression on plaintext before desing compressing is down to four characters with more entropy wj the opponent now pads the message with his own message also compressed dk before applying des to the concatenated compressed pairs when decrpyted the first compressed message is stripped off and declared sent unbeknowst to the receiver the opponents accomplice collects the remaining message in the bit bucket and uncompresses to kill now and to prevent all such subliminal or covert storage channels you would need to have maximal entropy all the time which is a priori impossible because for example a stereotypical message might be replaced by one bit in the output reserving the rest of the output bits for the long covert message in other words if you opponent get to muck with the algorithm you either have got to muck with it last or concede his possible embedding of covert channels in other words if you present a message to an opponet with less than maximal entropy then you have given him free bits of storage grady netcom com ef e ad d d c f fc ac f d f e f
sci.crypt	re my letter about clipper david reeve sward sward cmu edu writes we don t know this do we the algorithm is classified i speculate from the mykotronx data sheet on the myk that the algorithm is a classified cryptosystem similar in application to des but cleared by the nsa for classified traffic that has been in use for a number of years myktotronx refers to it as government type ii encryption which matches the designation of one of the types of encryption available on stu iii phones and may be the same as a cryptosystem i have heard called cipher this would make sense since this is evidently a field proven cryptosystem which can act as a pin compatible substitute for des combined with a tappable key exchange protocol this would offer exactly what is claimed for clipper secure encryption with access via a key escrow if this is fact the case it would make me quite confident of the encipherment algorithm itself now i do not know if these are in fact the same cryptosystem my knowledge of classified cryptography isn t even fuzzy it s nonexistent however it would certainly have been the least effort approach on the part of the government take an old military cipher that people can drop in place of des and which is at least as secure set up a key escrow scheme for law enforcement and promote it for public use this also fits with mykotronx who s been around but almost invisible for years has anyone else made this sort of connection or am i just hallucinating pink elephants here my curiousity has been piqued amanda walker intercon systems corporation
sci.crypt	re re re clipper chip from article cyberia win net by johnston cyberia win net robert johnston encryption technologies are currently reguarded as arms by the feds hence the export ban while the second is under enough attack for guarrentteing our rights to fire arms perhaps we should reflect on this as well perhaps fire arms are not the only weapons covered under the second amendment hmmm i wouldn t consider encryption to be a weapon how would the government classify encryption seems to me that encryption ought to be covered by the first amendment using this line of reasoning the government shouldn t be able to restrict what data people encrypt and what encryption algorithms they use because this would be restricting one s freedom of speech in other words encrypted data text graphics or other information is just another form of free speech for this reason the government shouldn t be able to regulate the use of encryption algorithms and encrypted data the only time the government should be able to force someone to reveal his or her encryption keys for some encrypted data is when the encrypted data in question may be something that isn t protected by the first amendment such as kiddy porn even in a case like this the government should be required to get a search warrant before coercing someone into revealing the keys btw what encryption methods are considered to be state of the art nowdays have the feds relaxed export restrictions on des yet also is des still regarded as a good form of encryption robert johnston johonston cyberia win net scott kennedy brewer and patriot before david koresh is a cheap thug who interprets the bible through the barrel of a gun atf spokesman after the atf is a cheap thug who interprets the constitution through the barrel of a gun me batf cigarette cops fbi fuehrer s bureau of incineration
sci.crypt	clipper chip reverse engineering i have been looking over the postings about the clipper chip and noticed an interesting omission from the discussion you all mention that the algorithm is classified and have expressed concerns and ideas of how to figure out the algorithm using software the question that i have is why cant someone take one of these chips and reverse engineer it i mean take the thing to a chip testing analysis facility one with a decent electron microscope just pry off the top of the chip and start scanning it with the electron microcope and figure out the circuitry i remembered a place that i use to work for had one of these facilities that they used to analyze chips that we accidently blew out while running tests they could actually find the area that was fried and show us where in the circuit it was i am sure that many companies and universities must have these facilities and that the potential is there especially at a university where the security at such a facility is looser for someone to take a clipper apart and analyze it what can the government do to prevent this start taking away all microchip analysis facilities and electron microscopes mark
sci.crypt	re i have seen the lobby and it is us in article apr yuma acns colostate edu ns lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons writes i think that most of us can afford a stamp and an envelope and the cost of printing out a letter if some kind soul out there would write a letter and upload it to the net everyone could capture it print it out and snail mail it out to their local congressional critter btw i m working on one dear senator congressman president fill in the blank i am writing you to voice my strong opposition to president clinton s clipper chip initiative this proposal to establish a secret government designed cryptography chip with government key registration as the standard for voice encryption is very disturbing the idea that citizens must register their secrets with the government just in case they are trying to keep them secret is patently unamerican additionally the press release for this program strongly implied that other forms of cryptography would be banned after the clipper chip standard is in place this latest attack on our civil rights is deeply disturbing and is frankly a voting issue for me the presidents press release stated that the plan strikes a balance between the legitimate needs of law enforcement and a citizens right to privacy but this is not the case the fact is that since other strong cryptographic equipment is avalible the criminals drug dealers and terrorists mentioned in the press release will simply use non clipper cryptography meanwhile the average citizen may gain no protection against warentless wiretaps by the government since the government escrowed key is derived deterministicly from the unit serial number which is broadcast by the chip durring its opperation this seems like an obvious back door for the nsa and law enforcement if you still do nott understand my objection to key registration consider the way j edgar hoover blackmailed government officials like yourself would you now use a phone to transmit personal details of your life that the nsa and fbi have the keys to well heres a letter i didnt spell check it since i dont know how in emacs so you might want to do that bill smythe
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in article c el i rahul net dhesi rahul net rahul dhesi writes in rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes how come the media is not telling about the provisions of the clipper decision how can the bulk of the people be informed when the media refuses to do it the answer to your second question lies in the way you phrased the first one the media is the medis isn t is the media are media means more than one medium there are thousands of publications some say this some say that how can the bulk of the people be informed when they won t read informative publications because much of the public aren t even aware of the names of informative publications look at the wealth of material on the typical newsstand unless the person is working in some kind of technical environment with the usual trade journals all they ever see is the media note media in this context is the popular media tv radio daily newspapers and such publications as time newsweek and all that and they all say pretty much the same thing i see most of them being in the range of center left to far left and generally supportive of pie in sky we will take care of you think for you cradle to grave there seems to be an air of arrogance that the individual is not capable of understanding major issues so the media doesn t bother to inform them as with clipper for example or tells the people how to interpret events in others what is lost sight of is that the people are not good at understanding things because they are not told accurate information about them it is a lot to expect of the people for them to be clarirvoyant for example i would have been unaware of clipper had i not picked it up on usenet how much of the population has usenet let alone internet access for access to better publications the person has to spend time digging many folks especially who work long hours have families etc do not have time to go digging and many are not yet aware things are wrong so are not motivated to dig not saying its right just saying that is the way things are people aren t upset about things when they aren t told and the less than objective media is a major contributer to the problem and then compound that with an attitude of arrogance in the civil service bureaucrats politicians that act as if the person without political connections or deep pockets potential contributer should have few if any rights being a resource to be used by those in control for their polticial or financial gain some law enforcement agencies act as if they regard the common person with a rather intense degree of contempt peons that are supposed to do what they are told and get very nasty when someone questions them the media pundits editors etc tend to fall into those with privilege and tend to not be upset by the current state of affairs the fellow in dc who shot the swimmer in his jacuzzi for daring to swim in it with an illegally owned gun violating the law he pushed to be foisted on everyone else ends up walking where a less well connected person would have been crucified a typical example of one standard for us a much more restrictive standard for other folk perhaps i am not real eloquent in expressing this but the solution sure as hell is not to make it harder for people to find out what is going on or dismiss their concerns because one happens to be in a position where one feels they are exempt or insulated such as that hypocrite of a journalist in dc described above one notices that these less than complimentary points about that double standard was not covered in the media i feel the reason was it dovetailed with their political views on the subject and it involved a brother journalist isn t it time for our objective media the main source of info for the average person to start being what they claim to be instead of spin doctors for the statist elements rahul dhesi dhesi rahul net also dhesi cirrus com pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful in article strnlghtc dx zn netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article apr microsoft com gideony microsoft com gideon yuval writes if these personal attacks are what stopped prof denning from replying on issues of substance they have cause real harm to the serious debate here they are and they have are you in contact with her is that what she said or what you think her reason is also could it be possible that she is not replying because she has no reply that wouldn t confirm the worst suspicions if the suspicions are way out of pocket one would think the person would be in there saying so and indicating why they are out of pocket hiding behind a veil of secrecy is not reassuring pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	from crossbows to cryptography begin pgp signed message please note that the following speech was made by chuck hammill in address all letters to his address given at the end of this document russell from crossbows to cryptography thwarting the state via technology given at the future of freedom conference november you know technology and particularly computer technology has often gotten a bad rap in libertarian cir cles we tend to think of orwell s or terry gilliam s brazil or the proximity detectors keeping east berlin s slave citizens on their own side of the border or the so phisticated bugging devices nixon used to harass those on his enemies list or we recognize that for the price of a ticket on the concorde we can fly at twice the speed of sound but only if we first walk thru a magnetometer run by a government policeman and permit him to paw thru our be longings if it beeps but i think that mind set is a mistake before there were cattle prods governments tortured their prisoners with clubs and rubber hoses before there were lasers for eavesdropping governments used binoculars and lip readers though government certainly uses technology to oppress the evil lies not in the tools but in the wielder of the tools in fact technology represents one of the most promis ing avenues available for re capturing our freedoms from those who have stolen them by its very nature it favors the bright who can put it to use over the dull who can not it favors the adaptable who are quick to see the merit of the new over the sluggish who cling to time tested ways and what two better words are there to de scribe government bureaucracy than dull and sluggish one of the clearest classic triumphs of technology over tyranny i see is the invention of the man portable crossbow with it an untrained peasant could now reliably and lethally engage a target out to fifty meters even if that target were a mounted chain mailed knight unlike the longbow which admittedly was more powerful and could get off more shots per unit time the crossbow required no formal training to utilize whereas the longbow required elaborate visual tactile and kinesthetic coordination to achieve any degree of accuracy the wielder of a crossbow could simply put the weapon to his shoulder sight along the arrow itself and be reasonably assured of hitting his tar get moreover since just about the only mounted knights likely to visit your average peasant would be government soldiers and tax collectors the utility of the device was plain with it the common rabble could defend themselves not only against one another but against their governmental masters it was the medieval equivalent of the armor piercing bullet and consequently kings and priests the medieval equivalent of a bureau of alcohol tobacco and crossbows threatened death and excommunication respec tively for its unlawful possession looking at later developments we see how technology like the firearm particularly the repeating rifle and the handgun later followed by the gatling gun and more advanced machine guns radically altered the balance of interpersonal and inter group power not without reason was the colt called the equalizer a frail dance hall hostess with one in her possession was now fully able to protect herself against the brawniest roughneck in any saloon advertise ments for the period also reflect the merchandising of the repeating cartridge rifle by declaring that a man on horseback armed with one of these rifles simply cannot be captured and as long as his captors were relying upon flintlocks or single shot rifles the quote is doubtless a true one updating now to the present the public key cipher with a personal computer to run it represents an equiv alent quantum leap in a defensive weapon not only can such a technique be used to protect sensitive data in one s own possession but it can also permit two strangers to ex change information over an insecure communications channel a wiretapped phone line for example or skywriting for that matter without ever having previously met to exchange cipher keys with a thousand dollar com puter you can create a cipher that a multi megabuck cray x mp can t crack in a year within a few years it should be economically feasible to similarly encrypt voice communi cations soon after that full color digitized video images technology will not only have made wiretapping obsolete it will have totally demolished government s control over in formation transfer i d like to take just a moment to sketch the mathemat ics which makes this principle possible this algorithm is called the rsa algorithm after rivest shamir and adleman who jointly created it its security derives from the fact that if a very large number is the product of two very large primes then it is extremely difficult to obtain the two prime factors from analysis of their product ex tremely in the sense that if primes p and q have digits apiece then their digit product cannot in gen eral be factored in less than years by the most powerful computer now in existence the public part of the key consists of the prod uct pq of the two large primes p and q and one fac tor call it x of the product xy where xy p q the private part of the key consists of the other factor y each block of the text to be encrypted is first turned into an integer either by using ascii or even a simple a b c z representation this integer is then raised to the power x modulo pq and the resulting integer is then sent as the encrypted message the receiver decrypts by taking this integer to the secret power y modulo pq it can be shown that this process will always yield the original number started with what makes this a groundbreaking development and why it is called public key cryptography is that i can openly publish the product pq and the number x while keeping secret the number y so that anyone can send me an encrypted message namely x a mod pq but only i can recover the original message a by taking what they send raising it to the power y and taking the result mod pq the risky step meeting to exchange cipher keys has been eliminated so people who may not even trust each other enough to want to meet may still reliably ex change encrypted messages each party having selected and disseminated his own pq and his x while maintaining the secrecy of his own y another benefit of this scheme is the notion of a dig ital signature to enable one to authenticate the source of a given message normally if i want to send you a message i raise my plaintext a to your x and take the result mod your pq and send that however if in my message i take the plaintext a and raise it to my secret power y take the result mod my pq then raise that result to your x mod your pq and send this then even after you have normally decrypted the message it will still look like garbage however if you then raise it to my public power x and take the result mod my public pq so you will not only recover the ori ginal plaintext message but you will know that no one but i could have sent it to you since no one else knows my secret y and these are the very concerns by the way that are to day tormenting the soviet union about the whole question of personal computers on the one hand they recognize that american schoolchildren are right now growing up with com puters as commonplace as sliderules used to be more so in fact because there are things computers can do which will interest and instruct and year olds and it is pre cisely these students who one generation hence will be going head to head against their soviet counterparts for the soviets to hold back might be a suicidal as continuing to teach swordsmanship while your adversaries are learning ballistics on the other hand whatever else a personal computer may be it is also an exquisitely efficient copying machine a floppy disk will hold upwards of words of text and can be copied in a couple of minutes if this weren t threatening enough the computer that performs the copy can also encrypt the data in a fashion that is all but unbreakable remember that in soviet society publicly ac cessible xerox machines are unknown the relatively few copying machines in existence are controlled more inten sively than machine guns are in the united states now the conservative position is that we should not sell these computers to the soviets because they could use them in weapons systems the liberal position is that we should sell them in the interests of mutual trade and cooperation and anyway if we don t make the sale there will certainly be some other nation willing to for my part i m ready to suggest that the libertarian position should be to give them to the soviets for free and if necessary make them take them and if that doesn t work load up an sr blackbird and air drop them over moscow in the middle of the night paid for by private sub scription of course not taxation i confess that this is not a position that has gained much support among members of the conventional left right political spectrum but af ter all in the words of one of illuminatus s characters we are political non euclideans the shortest distance to a particular goal may not look anything like what most people would consider a straight line taking a long enough world view it is arguable that breaking the soviet govern ment monopoly on information transfer could better lead to the enfeeblement and indeed to the ultimate dissolution of the soviet empire than would the production of another dozen missiles aimed at moscow but there s the rub a long enough world view does suggest that the evil the oppressive the coercive and the simply stupid will get what they deserve but what s not immediately clear is how the rest of us can escape being killed enslaved or pauperized in the process when the liberals and other collectivists began to at tack freedom they possessed a reasonably stable healthy functioning economy and almost unlimited time to proceed to hamstring and dismantle it a policy of political gradualism was at least conceivable but now we have patchwork crazy quilt economy held together by baling wire and spit the state not only taxes us to feed the poor while also inducing farmers to slaughter milk cows and drive up food prices it then simultaneously turns around and sub sidizes research into agricultural chemicals designed to in crease yields of milk from the cows left alive or witness the fact that a decline in the price of oil is considered as potentially frightening as a comparable increase a few years ago when the price went up we were told the economy risked collapse for for want of energy the price increase was called the moral equivalent of war and the feds swung into action for the first time in american history the speed at which you drive your car to work in the morning be came an issue of federal concern now when the price of oil drops again we risk problems this time because ameri can oil companies and third world basket case nations who sell oil may not be able to ever pay their debts to our grossly over extended banks the suggested panacea is that government should now re raise the oil prices that opec has lowered via a new oil tax since the government is seeking to raise oil prices to about the same extent as opec did what can we call this except the moral equivalent of civil war the government against its own people and classically in international trade can you imag ine any entity in the world except a government going to court claiming that a vendor was selling it goods too cheaply and demanding not only that that naughty vendor be compelled by the court to raise its prices but also that it be punished for the act of lowering them in the first place so while the statists could afford to take a couple of hundred years to trash our economy and our liberties we certainly cannot count on having an equivalent period of stability in which to reclaim them i contend that there exists almost a black hole effect in the evolution of nation states just as in the evolution of stars once free dom contracts beyond a certain minimum extent the state warps the fabric of the political continuum about itself to the degree that subsequent re emergence of freedom becomes all but impossible a good illustration of this can be seen in the area of so called welfare payments when those who sup at the public trough outnumber and thus outvote those whose taxes must replenish the trough then what possible choice has a democracy but to perpetuate and expand the tak ing from the few for the unearned benefit of the many go down to the nearest welfare office find just two people on the dole and recognize that between them they form a voting bloc that can forever outvote you on the question of who owns your life and the fruits of your life s labor so essentially those who love liberty need an edge of some sort if we re ultimately going to prevail we obvi ously can t use the altruists other directedness of work slave suffer sacrifice so that next generation of a billion random strangers can live in a better world recognize that however immoral such an appeal might be it is nonetheless an extremely powerful one in today s culture if you can convince people to work energetically for a cause caring only enough for their personal welfare so as to remain alive enough and healthy enough to continue working then you have a truly massive reservoir of energy to draw from equally clearly this is just the sort of ap peal which tautologically cannot be utilized for egoistic or libertarian goals if i were to stand up before you tonight and say something like listen follow me as i enunciate my noble cause contribute your money to support the cause give up your free time to work for the cause strive selflessly to bring it about and then after you and your children are dead maybe your children s children will actu ally live under egoism you d all think i d gone mad and of course you d be right because the point i m trying to make is that libertarianism and or egoism will be spread if when and as individual libertarians and or egoists find it profitable and or enjoyable to do so and probably only then while i certainly do not disparage the concept of poli tical action i don t believe that it is the only nor even necessarily the most cost effective path toward increasing freedom in our time consider that for a fraction of the investment in time money and effort i might expend in try ing to convince the state to abolish wiretapping and all forms of censorship i can teach every libertarian who s in terested how to use cryptography to abolish them unilaterally there is a maxim a proverb generally attributed to the eskimoes which very likely most libertarians have al ready heard and while you likely would not quarrel with the saying you might well feel that you ve heard it often enough already and that it has nothing further to teach us and moreover that maybe you re even tired of hearing it i shall therefore repeat it now if you give a man a fish the saying runs you feed him for a day but if you teach a man how to fish you feed him for a lifetime your exposure to the quote was probably in some sort of a workfare vs welfare context namely that if you genuinely wish to help someone in need you should teach him how to earn his sustenance not simply how to beg for it and of course this is true if only because the next time he is hungry there might not be anybody around willing or even able to give him a fish whereas with the information on how to fish he is completely self sufficient but i submit that this exhausts only the first order content of the quote and if there were nothing further to glean from it i would have wasted your time by citing it again after all it seems to have almost a crypto altruist slant as though to imply that we should structure our ac tivities so as to maximize the benefits to such hungry beggars as we may encounter but consider suppose this eskimo doesn t know how to fish but he does know how to hunt walruses you on the other hand have often gone hungry while traveling thru walrus country because you had no idea how to catch the damn things and they ate most of the fish you could catch and now suppose the two of you decide to exchange information bartering fishing knowledge for hunting knowledge well the first thing to observe is that a transaction of this type categorically and unambiguously refutes the marxist premise that every trade must have a winner and a loser the idea that if one person gains it must necessarily be at the expense of another person who loses clearly under this scenario such is not the case each party has gained some thing he did not have before and neither has been dimin ished in any way when it comes to exchange of information rather than material objects life is no longer a zero sum game this is an extremely powerful notion the law of diminishing returns the first and second laws of thermodynamics all those laws which constrain our possi bilities in other contexts no longer bind us now that s anarchy or consider another possibility suppose this hungry eskimo never learned to fish because the ruler of his nation state had decreed fishing illegal because fish contain dangerous tiny bones and sometimes sharp spines he tells us the state has decreed that their consumption and even their possession are too hazardous to the people s health to be permitted even by knowledgeable willing adults perhaps it is because citizens bodies are thought to be government property and therefore it is the function of the state to punish those who improperly care for govern ment property or perhaps it is because the state gener ously extends to competent adults the benefits it provides to children and to the mentally ill namely a full time all pervasive supervisory conservatorship so that they need not trouble themselves with making choices about behavior thought physically risky or morally naughty but in any case you stare stupefied while your eskimo informant re lates how this law is taken so seriously that a friend of his was recently imprisoned for years for the crime of pos session of nine ounces of trout with intent to distribute now you may conclude that a society so grotesquely oppressive as to enforce a law of this type is simply an affront to the dignity of all human beings you may go far ther and decide to commit some portion of your discretion ary recreational time specifically to the task of thwarting this tyrant s goal your rationale may be altruistic in the sense of wanting to liberate the oppressed or egoistic in the sense of proving you can outsmart the oppressor or very likely some combination of these or per haps even other motives but since you have zero desire to become a martyr to your cause you re not about to mount a military campaign or even try to run a boatload of fish through the blockade however it is here that technology and in particular in formation technology can multiply your efficacy literally a hundredfold i say literally because for a fraction of the effort and virtually none of the risk attendant to smuggling in a hundred fish you can quite readily produce a hundred xerox copies of fishing instructions if the tar geted government like present day america at least permits open discussion of topics whose implementation is re stricted then that should suffice but if the government attempts to suppress the flow of information as well then you will have to take a little more effort and perhaps write your fishing manual on a floppy disk encrypted according to your mythical eskimo s public key parameters but as far as increasing real world access to fish you have made genuine nonzero headway which may continue to snowball as others re disseminate the information you have provided and you have not had to waste any of your time trying to convert id eological adversaries or even trying to win over the unde cided recall harry browne s dictum from freedom in an unfree world that the success of any endeavor is in general inversely proportional to the number of people whose persua sion is necessary to its fulfilment if you look at history you cannot deny that it has been dramatically shaped by men with names like washington lincoln nixon marcos duvalier khadaffi and their ilk but it has also been shaped by people with names like edison curie marconi tesla and wozniak and this latter shaping has been at least as per vasive and not nearly so bloody and that s where i m trying to take the libertech project rather than beseeching the state to please not en slave plunder or constrain us i propose a libertarian net work spreading the technologies by which we may seize freedom for ourselves but here we must be a bit careful while it is not at present illegal to encrypt information when government wants to spy on you there is no guarantee of what the fu ture may hold there have been bills introduced for exam ple which would have made it a crime to wear body armor when government wants to shoot you that is if you were to commit certain crimes while wearing a kevlar vest then that fact would constitute a separate federal crime of its own this law to my knowledge has not passed yet but it does indicate how government thinks other technological applications however do indeed pose legal risks we recognize for example that anyone who helped a pre civil war slave escape on the underground railroad was making a clearly illegal use of technology as the sovereign government of the united states of america at that time found the buying and selling of human beings quite as acceptable as the buying and selling of cattle simi larly during prohibition anyone who used his bathtub to ferment yeast and sugar into the illegal psychoactive drug alcohol the controlled substance wine was using technol ogy in a way that could get him shot dead by federal agents for his crime unfortunately not to be restored to life when congress reversed itself and re permitted use of this drug so to quote a former president un indicted co conspirator and pardoned felon let me make one thing perfectly clear the libertech project does not advocate participate in or conspire in the violation of any law no matter how oppressive unconstitutional or simply stupid such law may be it does engage in description for educa tional and informational purposes only of technological processes and some of these processes like flying a plane or manufacturing a firearm may well require appropriate li censing to perform legally fortunately no license is needed for the distribution or receipt of information it self so the next time you look at the political scene and despair thinking well if of the nation and of this state and of this city have to turn libertarian before i ll be free then somebody might as well cut my goddamn throat now and put me out of my misery recognize that such is not the case there exist ways to make your self free if you wish to explore such techniques via the project you are welcome to give me your name and address or a fake name and mail drop for that matter and you ll go on the mailing list for my erratically published newsletter any friends or acquaintances whom you think would be interested are welcome as well i m not even asking for stamped self addressed envelopes since my printer can handle mailing la bels and actual postage costs are down in the noise compared with the other efforts in getting an issue out if you should have an idea to share or even a useful product to plug i ll be glad to have you write it up for publication even if you want to be the proverbial free rider and just benefit from what others contribute you re still welcome everything will be public domain feel free to copy it or give it away or sell it for that matter cause if you can get money for it while i m taking full page ads trying to give it away you re certainly entitled to your capitalist profit anyway every application of these principles should make the world just a little freer and i m certainly willing to underwrite that at least for the forseeable fu ture i will leave you with one final thought if you don t learn how to beat your plowshares into swords before they outlaw swords then you sure as hell ought to learn before they outlaw plowshares too chuck hammill the libertech project queensbury drive los angeles california hammill netcom com the above libertech address was updated december with the permission of chuck hammill by russell whitaker those interested in the issues raised in this piece should participate in at least these newsgroups alt privacy alt security pgp comp org eff talk sci crypt a copy of the rsa based public key encryption program pgp pretty good privacy can be obtained at various ftp sites around the world one such site is gate demon co uk where an ms dos version can be had by anonymous ftp as pgp zip in pub pgp versions for other operating systems including unix variants and macintosh are also available source code is also available here s the blurb for pgp by the way quote pgp pretty good privacy ver rsa public key encryption freeware for msdos protects e mail lets you communicate securely with people you ve never met with no secure channels needed for prior exchange of keys well featured and fast excellent user documentation pgp has sophisticated key management an rsa conventional hybrid encryption scheme message digests for digital signatures data compression before encryption and good ergonomic design source code is free filenames pgp zip executable and manuals pgp src zip sources keywords pgp pretty good privacy rsa public key encryption privacy authentication signatures email end quote russell earl whitaker whitaker eternity demon co uk communications editor amix rwhitaker extropy the journal of transhumanist thought board member extropy institute exi
sci.crypt	triple des i have seen various references to triple des recently could anyone tell me what it is from context i would guess that it means encrypting each block times with a different key each time but i d like to be sure replies by email preferred our news is unreliable thanks richard pgp public key available on request pgp public key available on request disclaimer please note that the above is a personal view and should not be construed as an official comment from the jet project
sci.crypt	summary des init vector as additional key at the risk of getting lost in the clipper chip discussion i give a summary on my recent question in article pqscbcnh minnie zdv uni mainz de i wrote the recent discussion in this news group suggests that a key search attack against des is quite feasible now but normally des is applied in cbc or cfb mode where one chooses a random init vector of bytes questions makes it sense to handle the init vector as an additional key then we have a bit key if yes is anything known about the security of this key scheme can we break it faster than by exhaustive search through the bit key space unfortunately the answer is no concealing the initialisation vector essentially doesn t give any additional security i got answers from grady netcom com mark lomas cl cam ac uk smb research att com that opened my eyes it s pretty simple say e is encryption and d decryption with key k on bit blocks let c be the initialisation vector m m the message blocks c c the cipher text blocks then encryption in cipher block chaining cbc mode works by the formula c i e m i xor c i and decryption by m i c i xor d c i so if the attacker doesn t have c this only affects the first message block m but she can do her key search attack on m m the situation in cipher feedback cfb mode is a bit more complicated but similar and left as an exercise for the reader finally there is the modified output feedback mode ofb where des or whatever block cipher you use simply acts as random generator by s i e s i with initialisation vector seed s and encryption is given by c i m i xor s i here the usual known plaintext attack against xor bitstream ciphers reduces the cracking to key search for k klaus pommerening institut fuer medizinische statistik und dokumentation der johannes gutenberg universitaet obere zahlbacher strasse w mainz germany
sci.crypt	re dorothy denning opposes clipper capstone wiretap chips in article c bj bk agora rain com jhart agora rain com jim hart writes the security of the system should depend only on the secrecy of the keys and not on the secrecy of the algorithms dorothy denning jhart agora rain com you re reading far too much into this aside from the obvious fact that you shouldn t hold anybody to what they wrote in a year old book in a rapidly changing field like this quite simply she says that the security should not depend on the secrecy of the algorithm a secret algorithm can still be secure after all we just don t know it only our level of trust is affected not the security of the system the algorithm could be rsa for all we know which we believe to be secure they have a much better reason to classify the algorithm than to protect its security they want to protect its market share if they publish the algorithm then shortly manufacturers would make chips that implement the algorithm and standard but do not use a key stored in escrow and of course everybody would buy them the whole push of this chip is that by establishing a standard that you can only use if you follow their rules they get us to follow their rules without enacting new laws that we would fight tooth and nail quite simply with clipper established it would be much harder for another encryption maker to define a new standard to make phones that can t talk to the leading phone companies the result is tappable cryptography without laws forbidding other kinds for of the populace to get untappable crypto you would have to build a special phone that runs on top of this system and everybody you talk to would have to have an indentical one that s the chicken and egg of crypto the government is using its very special ability to solve chicken and egg problems of new technologies to control this one in a way they like it s almost admirably clever when the eff started i posed the question here what are the police going to do when they wake up and discover they can t wiretap and nobody here had an answer or even thought it was much of a question then came the backdoor and digital telephony bills which we fought now we have their real answer the cleverest of all brad templeton clarinet communications corp sunnyvale ca
sci.crypt	re clipper chip in article almaden ibm com jbs watson ibm com writes is it realistic for the government to try to keep the details of the encrytion algorithm secret if it intends to use evidence from james b shearer i do not think they can use the eavesdropping as evidence at all however using the info they gather while listening they can go searching the right place and find good strong evidence which they can use in court question currently it is easy to wire tap from the technical point of view at least anybody using the appropriate radio receiver can listen to communications between a car telephone and the ground station the police also obviously the clipper chip will make it much more difficult for the non authorized person to eavesdrop note that i do not write impossible the privacy will thus improve from the current situation poeple who really have something to hide already do not use the phone to speak of these things if an illegal operation is really worth one can afford having critical data carried by a person rather than sending it electronically the clipper chip will not change this the problem is more politic foreign countries will never accept the clipper chip is the access to the escrow cannot be directly granted to their own police following their own law not the us law i e each country will have its own escrow how then will it be possible to monitor the international traffic or will encrypted international traffic be possible or will there be an international escrow some kind of u n thing forbidding crypted communication is impractical how is it possible to spot a crypted communication in the thousands of megabytes of data which circulate on the various existing networks what about private networks and this will be more and more impossible as the volume of electronic traffic will increrase in the next years i think that the clipper chip can only be an interesting device to limit the risk of for instance one s girlfriend s husband listening to his wife s communications it will bring no more as regards to security is it worth i think so if its cost is limited i think that many privacy invasions are done not only by official services but also by private entities the clipper can help reducing these provided we do not hope too much of it it is not a real danger and it can be helpful ph hoogvorst
sci.crypt	re is it illegal to transmit encrypted data i m afraid i have to disagree with you on that point nsa will not tell rsa or any other non dod entity anything that its eavesdropping reveals i don t know about that they might if they find it the most expedient way to keep people from using something they can t crack
sci.crypt	re dorothy denning opposes clipper capstone wiretap chips i believe there is no technical means of ensuring key escrow without the government maintaining a secret of some kind not necessarily for instance in the system outlined in the may issue of byte the process of getting one s public key listed for general use involves giving pieces of your private key to escrow agencies which do calculations on those pieces and forward the result to the publishers of the public key directory which combines these results into your listed public key if you try to give the escrow agencies pieces which don t yield your private key when they are all put together the result is that the public key listed for you is wrong and you can t read messages encrypted to you
sci.crypt	re clipper chip in article apr ens fr h o dmi ens fr philippe hoogvorst writes forbidding crypted communication is impractical how is it possible to spot a crypted communication in the thousands of megabytes of data which circulate on the various existing networks what about private networks i suspect the government feels it is enough to prevent companies from offering secure encryption services big companies don t take that kind of risk they re too visible and have too much to lose the us government may not have to make encryption illegal to prevent its use if they could credibly say to ibm or mit you will receive no us government money next year unless you follow these voluntary guidelines on use of encryption i doubt either organization would delay making use of encryption a violation of local policies the us government gets much of its power by making it impractical to operate without getting money from the government while putting restrictions on use of such money that would be illegal if they were enacted as laws john carr jfc athena mit edu
sci.crypt	re let s build software cryptophones for over the internet in article apr wuecl wustl edu eah gauguin wustl edu edward anthony hutchins writes modify pgp to allow it to compress decompress bit frames every msec as part of the project i m working on now we re trying to get celp up and running in realtime full duplex mode i gotta find the source to pgp and see how tough it would be to integrate the en decryption parts into the code i presume you are just going to use idea for the session encryption and transmit the session key with rsa david r conrad no his mind is not for rent to any god or government cat talk conferencing network computer conferencing and file archive bps bps v v bis turbopep new users use new as a login id available via pc pursuit city code midet e mail address dave michigan com
sci.crypt	cryptography bibliography yesterday i read an article from someone who was requesting references for introductory texts on cryptography although i marked the article to return it appears to have expired on this site anyway on one of the previous occasions when this subject arose i saved a couple articles which made suggestions one of the articles contained a quite impressive bibliography if the poster of the request or anyone else would like to email me i would be glad to send out copies of these recommendations including the bibliography david r conrad no his mind is not for rent to any god or government cat talk conferencing network computer conferencing and file archive bps bps v v bis turbopep new users use new as a login id available via pc pursuit city code midet e mail address dave michigan com
sci.crypt	re clipper crap on wed apr gmt kckluge eecs umich edu karl kluge said kk shaun p hughes writes kk newsgroups sci crypt kk from sphughes sfsuvax sfsu edu shaun p hughes kk date sat apr gmt kk just a random passing thought but can anyone cite a documented use kk of encryption technology by criminals and terrorists kk excluding the iran contra gang kk sure the rum runners in prohibition see kahn s the codebreakers kk the irony was they were using better codes and key security than kk most governments were and fidel castro che guerra they used one time pads i think it was in an scientific american article about quantum cryptography
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography in article r ta hcs transfer stratus com cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison writes in article r jgbinn i eli cs yale edu jgfoot minerva cis yale edu writes perhaps these encryption only types would defend the digitized porn if it was posted encrypted to paraphrase i may not agree with what you re encrypting but i defend your right to encrypt it i suppose after waco it s only prudent to leave the to the death part out rob stampfli rob colnet cmhnet org the neat thing about standards ham radio kd wk n jyv oh there are so many to choose from
sci.crypt	re tempest in article apr lynx dac northeastern edu angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu writes i heard somewhere can t name the source that tempest does not necessarily pick up just crts but it can pick up emissions from almost any chip if that is true the kind monitor would not make any difference becuase everything on the screen can be picked up from the video controller can anybody verify or refute this you are correct several times tempest is a codeword for a standard shared between the nato governments to limit the inadvertent emission of information by either electromagnetic radiation or conduction the limits set in the standard are classified but there is open source information to the effect that either the electrical or magnetic components of electromagnetism can be exploited it is a basic rule of physics that there is an electromagnetic field associated with any path that conducts a flow of electrons among other things i drive a korean built at clone and an associated pin dotmatrix printer the major source of unintentional emission is the crt to that can be added the video driver card the rs parallel cable and the printer head the emissions from these are gross can be detected with the crudest of equipment were i to apply good test equipment and some intelligence to measuring emission levels i would find many other potential sources of leaked information where cryptography is used for serious purposes poor tempest protection becomes an important security hazard in the early eighties the need to allow some commercial concerns particularly financial institutions a level of protection against tempest threat led to a series of briefings to invited corporations and to the release of a cut down tempest stansard for commercial use i say release for while equipment to meet the standard is available at a price and to approved customers afaik even the commercial standard remains classified if you think about it it would really have to wouldn t it owen lewis tele fax eloka consultancy project management oml eloka demon co uk pgp x public key on request
sci.crypt	re clipper not good enough for government this is stupid won t it cost more to those companies hoping to serve the gov t and private markets if they don t use the same technology i would guess that they won t use clipper at all what they will do is use their stu iiis amoung themselves and the governmental agencies they need to talk to and ignore clipper after all if it s not secure enough for the agency department they are communicating with why should the coprations trust it jeff hupp internet jhupp shockwave win net medowglen apt ad contract programming novell houston texas network design and support voice the best govenment doesn t me
sci.crypt	re from crossbows to cryptography but i think that mind set is a mistake before there were cattle prods governments tortured their prisoners with clubs and rubber hoses before there were lasers for eavesdropping governments used binoculars and lip readers though government certainly uses technology to oppress the evil lies not in the tools but in the wielder of the tools evil and good walk hand in hand it is also important to note that the good in the tools lies in the wielder of the tools in fact technology represents one of the most promis ing avenues available for re capturing our freedoms from those who have stolen them i cannot accept this ridiculous leap in logic technology is neutral to good or evil when technology is used by evil men it is called evil technology when it is used by good men it is called good technology really it is just technology that allows action to be realized more efficently and on a larger scale by its very nature it favors the bright who can put it to use over the dull who can not try not to confused the development of technology with its use certainly bright people will be better at creating technology but even young children know how to program vcr machines are vcr machines not extremely complex to create it favors the adaptable who are quick to see the merit of the new over the sluggish who cling to time tested ways adaptibility and flexibility is always better at enduring than the stiff and stubborn a young child is soft and supple an old man is stiff and inflexible a dripping of water can cut through stone this has nothing to do with technology rather technology just allows us to magnify action and what two better words are there to de scribe government bureaucracy than dull and sluggish i have no objection to this joshp cmu edu o silent o thunder
sci.crypt	re how to make this illuminating thing in article rn innguj dns nmsu edu jcho dante nmsu edu cho writes my father having worked for american cyanamid for sometime did mention that the recipe is a secret neither of us know of just how toxic the stuff is but you can synthesize a simliar substance that is available to just about any organic lab called luminol you can usually find this in an organic lab book or something similiar these substances are normally not the secret but how to get at them the method of preperation is normally patented which means that no one else can make the chemical in the same way without undergoing an agreement with american cyanamid but i guess you knew what a patent is if you know what substance is used you ll also know its toxicity rumor has it that luminol is some base form for the stuff used in the light sticks the luminol reaction has the disadvantage of not lasting as long as the commercial version remember that cyano compounds are found in nature and not all are poisonous regards r h w poser chem eng iii university of pretoria fidonet or rolf poser p f n z fidonet org fastest pose rh babel ee up ac za tel
sci.crypt	re is it illegal to transmit encrypted data steve b access digex com steve brinich writes i m afraid i have to disagree with you on that point nsa will not tell rsa or any other non dod entity anything that its eavesdropping reveals i don t know about that they might if they find it the most expedient way to keep people from using something they can t crack let s put it this way they have a charter and several executive orders to obey among other things which explicitly prohibit sharing this information unless things have changed withing the last little while i suppose they could ignore it if they choose but i doubt they would for an authoritative look at the nsa get bamford s the puzzle palace that s all i can say ralph
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography marc tanda isis org marc thibault writes looking at it from up here in the frozen north it looks like you could do worse than get the nra involved they have a kindred problem a large number of voters the right attitude and lots of funds they also have a lot of the other voters really irritated at them from an ethical or constitutional viewpoint i haven t seen a good argument for cryptographic rights that doesn t also support the nra position on guns and vice versa okay folks i know i m in the minority on this issue but i can t let this assertion go unchallenged yet again i m going to say this only once in the hopes of not starting a flame war off of the main topic guns are offensive cryptography is defensive see the difference the only way you can use a gun is to hurt somebody else crypto graphy helps prevent other people from hurting you sorry for the digression let s not forget the issue that we do agree on we want continued access to crypto technology of our choice without key registration george mitchell george tessi com
sci.crypt	re triple des please post to news too
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography quoting amanda intercon com amanda walker in article rn b khb news intercon com george tessi com george mitchell writes guns are offensive cryptography is defensive see the difference nope information properly delivered can be just as deadly as lead the same is true of lemon meringue pie o paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk trust me i know what i m doing x fold a fish for jesus
sci.crypt	stu iii general question why are people willing to trust the stu iii because the government does jeff hupp internet jhupp shockwave win net medowglen apt ad contract programming novell houston texas network design and support voice the best govenment doesn t me
sci.crypt	re tempest angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu kirill shklovsky writes in article apr infodev cam ac uk rja cl cam ac uk ross anderson writes i heard somewhere can t name the source that tempest does not necessarily pick up just crts but it can pick up emissions from almost any chip if that is true the kind monitor would not make any difference becuase everything on the screen can be picked up from the video controller can anybody verify or refute this anything can be an emissions problem right down to the video cable given the right equipment you can pick the screen paint from the cable but given any cable you must know what is being sent through it to know the format of the signal as well as how many wires etc
sci.crypt	re clipper chip reverse engineering maa plato ds boeing com mark a allyn writes you all mention that the algorithm is classified and have expressed concerns and ideas of how to figure out the algorithm using software the question that i have is why cant someone take one of these chips and reverse engineer it i mean take the thing to a chip testing analysis facility one with a decent electron microscope just pry off the top of the chip and start scanning it with the electron microcope and figure out the circuitry i remembered a place that i use to work for had one of these facilities that they used to analyze chips that we accidently blew out while running tests they could actually find the area that was fried and show us where in the circuit it was i am sure that many companies and universities must have these facilities and that the potential is there especially at a university where the security at such a facility is looser for someone to take a clipper apart and analyze it what can the government do to prevent this start taking away all microchip analysis facilities and electron microscopes they are using some technology developed by vlsi systems the other manufacturer of the clipper chips that produces chips that are supposed to be highly resistant to reverse engineering matthew lyle matt oc com matt utdallas bitnet openconnect system dallas texas
sci.crypt	re suggestions for escrow agencies was re more technical details what are the assurances the escrow people will not be forbidden to report any access attempts for one s keys in ny state it is already a crime to inform anyone of a law enforcement wiretap on their phone even if the person doing the informing learns about it through non privliged means
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful tedwards eng umd edu thomas grant edwards writes if these personal attacks are what stopped prof denning from replying on issues of substance they have cause real harm to the serious debate here they are and they have if prof denning is afraid of posting here due to personal attacks perhaps she should use an anonymous posting service that is why they are there to allow heated debate to occur without the personal attacks er people are going to make personal attacks on prof denning whether she posts here or not that much should be obvious from looking at the traffic over the last few weeks therefore i conclude that the existence of personal attacks is irrelevant to any decision concerning whether to post i suspect that prof denning is actually using the attacks as an excuse for not posting and that the real reason for the silence is that clipper is not the sort of proposal any self respecting cryptographer can support via reasoned argument mathew if you want to have constructive discussions here and more importantly be taken seriously by your peers you may wish to consider shaping up advice i was offered by david sternlight
sci.crypt	re dorothy denning opposes clipper capstone wiretap chips brad clarinet com brad templeton writes they have a much better reason to classify the algorithm than to protect its security they want to protect its market share that s one way to put it keeping the algorithm classified means that disclosure of it falls under the rubric of national security nothing like federal marshalls to guard a monopoly the result is tappable cryptography without laws forbidding other kinds for of the populace agreed although this is still somewhat better than the status quo to get untappable crypto you would have to build a special phone that runs on top of this system and everybody you talk to would have to have an indentical one sounds like a job for the free software foundation amanda walker intercon systems corporation
sci.crypt	re clipper crap kckluge eecs umich edu karl kluge writes in article apr csus edu sphughes sfsuvax sfsu edu shaun p hughes writes just a random passing thought but can anyone cite a documented use of encryption technology by criminals and terrorists excluding the iran contra gang just a couple of days ago i heard on the radio news that a neo nazi organization had set up a bbs to keep its members informed according to the radio man the nazis were using encryption to reduce their risk if they were prosecuted no i do not have any more information have fun stephan neuhaus informatik uni kl de sig closed for inventory please leave your pickaxe outside pgp public key available on request note the expiration date
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography in article rdippold qualcom rdippold qualcomm com ron asbestos dippold writes george tessi com george mitchell writes guns are offensive cryptography is defensive see the difference no they re both neutral whether they re offensive or defensive depends on how you use them nonsense mike in heinlein s moon is a harsh mistress decides that a weapon is some mechanism which allows you to deliver energy at a distance i don t have the book handy or i d find the exact quote guns do that cryptosystems do not disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax
sci.crypt	re triple des richard lucock rmal jet uk wrote i have seen various references to triple des recently could anyone tell me what it is from context i would guess that it means encrypting each block times with a different key each time but i d like to be sure replies by email preferred our news is unreliable could people replying to the above question post their responses here as well as i m sure others including myself would like to hear them thanks jon jon saville who alive can say thou art no keats ee jks brunel ac uk poet may st not tell thy dreams pgp public key available upon request or by finger
sci.crypt	re clipper chip questions in rmrm jvb sol tis com mjr tis com marcus j ranum writes about scanning clipper and reverse engineering the algorithm am i missing something obvious here what could have the government done to address this possibility do they really care if it stays classified yeah you re missing the obvious fact that since the algorithm is classified if you reverse engineer it from the chip and later publish it or build a compatible chip you re divulging classified information and are in a big load of trouble i don t think they can do that without changing the law the chip itself isn t classified and reverse engineering is allowed by law possibly unless prohibited by a valid contract the algorithm may be classified but there are many court cases ruling that information identical to classfied information but obtained from unclassified sources is freely publishable with the possible exception of nuclear weapon information arthur l rubin a rubin dsg dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer
sci.crypt	re clipper crap in article kckluge apr krusty eecs umich edu kckluge eecs umich edu karl kluge writes in article apr csus edu sphughes sfsuvax sfsu edu shaun p hughes writes encryption s dual edge sword encryption helps to protect the privacy of individuals and industry but it also can shield criminals and terrorists we need the clipper chip and other just a random passing thought but can anyone cite a documented use of encryption technology by criminals and terrorists excluding the iran contra gang sure the rum runners in prohibition see kahn s the codebreakers the irony was they were using better codes and key security than most governments were yes great chapter elizabeth friedman sp comes shining through however the chapter also notes that these rum runners invented their own crypto hired ex military folks in fact how s that for a revolving door now given that today s rum runners coke runners actually have even more money than yesterday s it s reasonable to expect them to have even better cryptography i doubt they have a chip foundry of their own yet but so my question of the fbi nist nsa is how are you going to make the rum runners use the clipper chip answer you re not question ok in that case your justification for taking away our rights has evaporated how do you justify our loss of rights if you can t use the drug dealers and terrorists disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax
sci.crypt	re clipper two additional possible problems begin pgp signed message in article cliftonrc tvt al netcom com cliftonr netcom com pope clifton writes if i want to talk to someone i don t need to have previously exchanged keys with him i just call him up and the phones establish a session key for us using a zero knowledge algorithm or something of the kind if i ve misunderstood this part it probably invalidates the rest of this notion this lends itself to spoofing i go buy a pair of clipper phones to go on a pair of phone lines in a back room somewhere and have the digital switch programmed to redirect his calls to one of my two lines instead of to his whenever he receives a call the two phones are wired back to back in the clear anyone see any problem with this scheme other than to assume that all public officials and phone company employees are totally incorruptible as far as i can see no matter how the session keys are generated be it diffie hellman or whatever any cripple conversation which travels in whole or in part over a land line is vulnerable to this scheme law enforcement agencies can do it legally at the telco or illegally by finding some part of the phone line that they can cut into the degree of risk depends very much on location not good in the middle of a busy street but not bad on a line in open country leading to a drug lord s ranch the only way to defeat it would be if your phone had the equivalent of a public key indexed against phone number for every phone you might want to call all of them totally impractical even if some part of the cripple algorithm could be used as a kind of public key i don t understand enough about these things to know this sort of encryption scheme is only really workable over a radio link and even then you could probably interevene without causing problems for other phones nearby if you were physically close to the target phone gosh yet another way to get round cripple encryption how many is that we ve found so far and that s without even knowing the details of the algorithm paul
sci.crypt	re hardware hash function in article c deo uye watson ibm com basturk watson ibm com erol basturk writes so the question is has a fast hash function been designed for hardware implementation yes you can use a stream cipher chip to hash data with only slight modification see a fast cryptographic checksum algorithm based on stream ciphers x lai ra rueppel j woolven auscrypt pp to ross
sci.crypt	re help some nut is threatening to sue i don t wish to rehash the pgp patent issue at all but i do feel that some potential misconceptions in interpretting intellectual property laws need to be raised in article a rubin dsg dse beckman com a rubin dsg dse beckman com arthur rubin writes if pgp violates rsas patents then only executing pgp could be a violation distributing pgp could be contributory infringement but the pgp documentation seemed sufficient to me to protect distributors before i deleted it using pgp might be a patent violation in the us so i have no need to keep it you are correct that executing pgp would be a violation unless the patent were declared invalid by the courts but there is a question as to when how or if distributing pgp would be a violation if the person or company distributing pgp receives money for doing so then it is clearly a sale for example if it were on compuserve they charge you for access so they would be selling pgp when there is no charge for pgp things get less clear but there would still be a reasonable view that it is inducing an infringement nb re jim bidzos you have no legal action you can take unless you believe you can prove someone is using pgp in the us for a purpose other than that specifically allowed by patent laws not entirely correct anyone can sue for any reason but you cannot prevail unless you can prove that by a prepoderance of evidence under patent laws pgp does have legitimate uses as a means to study your algorithm in order to produce improvements which would still require your approval to execute until the patent runs out around this is a common misconception the patent laws do not mention any valid purpose for infringing a patent although it is clear that in order to create a new invention either based on a prior patent or to avoid infringing a prior patent one must perform research on an existing patent to just say that you infringed a patent assume we re not talking the rsa patent only for research purposes wink wink nudge nudge and then never develop any related invention ie only use it would be a clear infringement glenn tenney voice fax tenney netcom com ham radio aa er
sci.crypt	re my letter about clipper in article strnlghtc bjdw mid netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes part of the basis for my belief is that we nsa have more people spend much more money and have much better hardware than anyone else the same could be said for many other goverment agencies but big budgets large staffs and long lead time haven t made many of them into models of effectiveness the fact is that those of us outside the inner circles have only james bamford s word that the people at the nsa use those legendary masses of computers for anything other than reading netnews like many of us the nsa doesn t have an impressive record of accomplishments at least not a public record david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted this on the other hand is priceless where s it from
sci.crypt	re clipper two additional possible problems erwin trwacs fp trw com harry erwin writes anyone interested in adopting british telecom s quantum encryption scheme they ve demonstrated it over a km link it automatically detects wiretapping can you tell us more pooka
sci.crypt	re clipper two additional possible problems in article erwin trwacs erwin trwacs fp trw com writes anyone interested in adopting british telecom s quantum encryption scheme they ve demonstrated it over a km link it automatically detects wiretapping if the bt phone system is anything to go by me thinks this should be approached with great caution mark without warranty internet mark bart demon co uk implied merchantability cis or fitness for a particular purpose yo dude click click brrr
sci.crypt	re des salts in article mar demax com mikel demax com mikel lechner writes you could just as well use a character password to perform the encryption of the zero bits one simple method would be to use the first characters to encrypt the zero bits and then use the remaining characters to encrypt the result again the output would still be bits which encodes into ascii characters wouldn t this method be vulnerable against a birthday attack currently a cracker needs to find the only key that produces the given ciphertext he has to try about keys on the average in the proposed method the cracker only needs any pair of key halves if he can store about guesses for one half he is likely to find a mathching pair in about guesses here i have assumed that the des encryption is reversable if the key is guessed is this so or do the modifications of the s boxes by the salt bits make it non reversable probably there is only one key i think there is chance in about that there are two or more keys can anyone verify this but this doesn t help the cracker much
sci.crypt	source code for substitution cipher i was wondering if anyone knew of where i could find source code for a program to solve a substitution cipher thanks kevin please post your answer instead of e mailing me directly
sci.crypt	re more clipper stuff ben liberman ben genesis mcs com wrote what if clipper is fairly secure but leaves a distinct clipper signature that is what if it s not too difficult to tell that a msg was clipper encrypted even if you can t tell the contents in that case anyone who is trying to hide behind anther encryption scheme will stand out from all of the other traffic and raise a red flag to the nsa etc i think the obvious answer which may have been posted but i haven t seen it is to encrypt your data with some other scheme then run it through clipper the only way the police will be able to detect the other encryption is through a wiretap so even if they do notice with an illegal wiretap i have a hard time seeing a judge issuing a warrant for a search to confiscate the illegal scheme assuming that at one day it comes to this a worse case based on an illegal wiretap then again maybe i am an idealist ben liberman internet ben genesis mcs com ben tai chi il us michael sawyer my opinions are mine not necessarily uh s nsf s or nasa s university of hawaii physical oceanography satellite remote sensing ripem public key available md ofpublickey c c a d c dccc d
sci.crypt	advanced one time pad was re more one time pad stuff o k if you ve read this group for a while you know all about the one time pad but here s a question i haven t seen the one time pad yeilds ideal security but has a well known flaw in authentication suppose you use a random bit stream as the pad and exclusive or as the encryption operation if an adversary knows the plaintext of a message he can change it into any other message here s how it works alice is sending bob a plaintext p under a key stream s alice computes the ciphertext c s xor p and sends it to bob eve knows the plainext p but wants the message to appear as p eve intercepts c and computes c c xor p xor p s xor p eve sends c to bob bob decrypts c by computing c xor s p thus receiving the false message which was substituted by eve now the question is how can this attack be defeated with information theoretic security not just computational security can we define something like ideal authentication which is the analog of ideal security can we obtain ideal authentication if not how much can we limit eve s control over the message if we can achieve ideal authentication does the solution use more key bits or expand the message can we show the solution to be optimal in one or more parameters does anyone know if these questions have been aswered before olson umbc edu
sci.crypt	re audio cds on apr steve b access digex net steve brinich said steve hmmm given the error corrections in modern audio cds is steve it sufficient to simply instruct your agent to decrypt using steve the bit stream from the second cut of the latest garth brooks steve cd or are the usual number of bit errors found acceptable in steve commercial cds because of that error correction enough to steve garble the message if such a method is used one unreliable data point while looking over the shoulder of a recording engineer i decided that he was seeing a raw error rate of about in e on a cd master both the extrapolation to mass market cds and my state of mind while doing the arithmetic i was waiting for him to finish so we could go get something to eat are questionable tony desimone room m performance analysis department crawfords corner road at t bell laboratories holmdel nj
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography in article apr csus edu sphughes sfsuvax sfsu edu shaun p hughes writes perhaps someone should ask zippy the pinhead for his opinion yow am i encrypting yet didn t we go over this guns n crypto discussion a few months ago must we go over it again ji
sci.crypt	one time pad authentication i can think of a couple of ways of guaranteeing authenticity in a one time pad encrytped scheme though i m not sure how to prove that what kind of authenicity they provide an obvious first attempt might be to prepend a truly random unpredictable for eve block to the message and then calculate a crc which included the random starting block and all of the message this could be encrypted after the message the problem is i m not sure it s impossible to come up with a message that will hash to the same crc regardless of the random starting block it intuitively seems like it ought to be hard but i m not that sure clearly a crypto strength hash like md or the sha would be stronger but again i m not sure i m comfortable claiming that it s unbreakable a scheme to use up some of the pad bits to decide how many bits of s to include in the plaintext stream before going on wouldn t be too bad either at the cost of increasing the speed with which you use up your pad this could be used to give you arbitrarily low probability that your opponent could spoof a valid looking message since any deciphered plaintext in a spot that should be carrying s will show that something funny s going on if for each message bit m i we used up one random bit r i to decide whether to insert a into the plaintext stream we d get a total pad use of times the message length we d expand the message size by about half each that should appear in the plaintext stream that doesn t is a guess for our would be spoofer at each bit she has to guess i m trying to see how to quantify her chances of making it all the way through the spoofed message but it gets a little complicated because she can get un synched and still happen to have a in that place in the spoofed message now i can see a simple way of doing this that s got to be as secure as a one time pad at a cost of using times the message length in pad bits for each message bit m i use one random bit r i and xor them together to get x i now encrypt the three bits with the one time pad the enemy has no way of guessing what r i is so he she can t guess what x i is either any change she makes in the ciphertext stream will have to involve a guess of what r i was is there any way to do this without using so many pad bits spoofing the message is equivalent to correctly guessing as many random bits as there are bits in the message clearly this makes spoofing messages just as hard if you know the whole message text as if you know none of it in fact it looks to me like this makes it just as hard to generate a spoofed message with the ciphertext as without it but i m not entirely sure about that is there an easier way of doing this that s provably as secure as the one time pad john kelsey
sci.crypt	authentication and one time pads was re advanced one time pad in article s dbminnehb elang acslab umbc edu olson umbc edu bryan olson cmsc g writes the one time pad yeilds ideal security but has a well known flaw in authentication suppose you use a random bit stream as the pad and exclusive or as the encryption operation if an adversary knows the plaintext of a message he can change it into any other message here s how it works alice is sending bob a plaintext p under a key stream s alice computes the ciphertext c s xor p and sends it to bob eve knows the plainext p but wants the message to appear as p eve intercepts c and computes c c xor p xor p s xor p eve sends c to bob bob decrypts c by computing c xor s p thus receiving the false message which was substituted by eve firstly an aside i agree that the weakness exists but i have a lot of trouble believing that it represents a difficulty in real life given the purpose of the one time pad is to give unbreakable security and the expense of key distribution etc imply that the clients really do want that level of security these same people want to keep p a secret i find it hard to believe that eve might happen to have a copy of p lying around i am aware that the same argument applies to eve knowing even a small part of the message but eve must know exactly where which bytes in c her known susequence starts or the result will be garbled i find this at least as surprising back to the question if i had the resources to use a one time pad for such transmissions i would also append a message authentication code to the message using up the next bits of the one time pad as the key perhaps your original question basically asked whether there was any way to authenticate the message with the same degree of security as the pad itself provided and i don t know the answer however i would propose the following for discussion alice and bob have an arbitrary number of secret random bits to share which eve doesn t know she finds them out effectively by knowing some p and the corresponding c it is the fact that they correspond that causes the problem if a message authentication code was to be created using some one time pad operation such that eve could not know which parts of the mac were affected by which parts of the input she would be unable to forge a mac to correspond what is required is a non linear combiner of parts of the message non linear so that simply xoring or subtracting or whatever doesn t have exactly the same effect now at the end of the encrypted message c alice appends a n bit mac computed as follows s means the next full chunk of the one time pad compute c p xor s and pad to an n bit boundary with more of s break c into n bit chunks set mac to initialisation vector for i in each chunk sequentially set mac mac nlop c i at the end of this process mac is the message authentication code bob verifies the mac in the obvious manner he recovers the plaintext p then uses some more of his pad to reproduce the mac in the same manner nlop is the non linear operator and there is the rub the simplest non linear operator i can think of is an s box that is have a fixed even published permutation of the n bit integers an indexable table called sbox and use x nlop y x xor sbox y practically speaking i think this solves your problem as eve never sees the intermediate output c and hence can t deduce s or perform any valid substitution on it also practically speaking you want the mac to be fairly large say bits but you might not want a gigabyte say s box so you might work on byte sized s boxes but i think that is an irrelevant detail for the discussion at hand who will be first to point out my errors or give me a pointer to some literature greg rose australian computing and communications institute ggr acci com au use of the standard phrase hijacked may be inadvisable caa
sci.electronics	re ir remote control receiver in article wb omc dynamo ecn purdue edu wb omc dynamo ecn purdue edu duane p mantick writes ab freenet carleton ca marc dion writes for a project of my own i would like to build a infra red remote control receiver for regular vcrs and tvs remotes does anybody have any info or tips on how to build such receiver in particular a which photo detector should i use which wavelength do remotes use b which ics or circuit should i use c any suggestions for circuit layout another suggestion find a brand of tv that uses an ir remote and go look at the sams photofact for it you can often find some very detailed schematics and parts list for not only the receiver but the transmitter as well including carrier freq specs and tone decoding specs if the system uses that probably won t help i d be willing to bet that every manufacturer used those little self contained modules i think sharp made them radio shack used to sell them for a few bucks maybe they still do the module had leads power ground and demodulated output it contained the photo detector amplifier integrator and demodulator all in a tiny metal can if you want to buy one try radio shack or else a tv repair shop can probably order one btw the carrier frequency is khz and each different tv vcr cable box stereo manufacturer uses a unique pulse scheme to perform each different function on their equipment jim ritterbusch ritterbus wcsu ctstateu edu or ne radiomail net temp rf there is an art the guide says or rather a knack to flying the knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss
sci.electronics	re x oversampling cd player in a previous article kolstad cae wisc edu joel kolstad writes in article hcbc un l dd netcom com hcb netcom com h c bowman writes i just bought a new portable cd player for the office and i notice that it proudly proclaims times oversampling on the box now while i think i understand what oversampling is the rate of discrete samples exceeds the highest frequency component of interest by some factor i don t understand this times business it seems to me that when i bought my first cd player was it really years ago the specs said times could someone please tell me whether i m getting senile if i m not then what good does it do for the player to take samples at a higher rate the data is only ever read once barring mistracks and such of course and eventually gets turned into khz bit two channel data oversampling takes two discrete data points and interpolates n points between them for n times oversampling when i asked people said that the interpolation was not simply linear interpolation but significantly more complicated you are quite correct in your understanding the filtering is not interpolation as that would distort the frequency content of the signal you are listening to generally these players run the samples thru an all pass filter network i have done this for ecg waveforms from a person s heart and the effect is rather spooky it actually reconstructs peaks that weren t there correctly too and fills in the gaps with the properly computed values just as if there had been a real sample taken at that point i use a cpu to do all the math it takes a decent but not unreasonable amount of cpu time to do this you can keep up with things in realtime if you write efficient code in case you care the filtering method uses an fir finite impulse response filter i d guess that cd makers use the same kind of method anybody out there know the real answer i d say that they use a tapped delay line with resistor op amp weighting to accomplish the filtering this strikes me as the most cost effective method for volume production runs anyway then the purpose of oversampling is to move the effective sampling rate up to n times khz in order to use higher frequency antialiasing filters for the same quality filter higher oversampling lets you build cheaper filters whereas for the same price filter higher oversamplings lets you build better filters so assuming the quality of all other components in a cd player remained the same oversampling should allow a manufacturer to produce slightly better sound due to anti alias filtering actually i think the only reason they do this is so that they can say that they have a marketting gimic i would guess that it is acutally cheaper to filter an oversampled signal than not you can use sloppier components and give the filter a roll off that isn t so sharp it s too bad that they charge more for something that i think is actually less costly to build i seriously doubt that the filters cost the same but are better they are built to a price spec and that spec says cheap as possible joel kolstad dave dave mcmahan mcmahan netcom com n w
sci.electronics	re voltage regulation and current limiting andy collins acollins uclink berkeley edu wrote one not so quick question to throw out there for you guys for our class project we need to design and build a power supply to the following specs voltatge adjustable from v current limited at a voltage must stay within of designated value for i from a ac ripple less than mv rms to decide which kind of circuit you must know the initialprecission of the limiter current and the allowed temp drift in the first case you can use a ube of a transistor as a voltage reference of about vdc with a temp drift of mv k in the second case its better you use a bandgap ref and a opamp circuit to detect the maximum current the output of this opamp controlls the outputstage to limit the current bye thomas
sci.electronics	re adcom cheap products in qmbi aln transfer stratus com michael labella vos stratus com writes i gather by off shore assembly you mean that adcoms are built by blue fin tuna s who are into that squid fi sound i agree on that one my adcom preamp did sound better after installing the famous running the chips class a resistor mod and replacing the metal bottom cover with plexiglass too bad the factory could not make em sound better but better sound unfortunately does not appear to be a priority with adcom else the mods would neither have been necessary nor would they have improved what was already touted as superlative state o d art le sound i really want to hear from all those people out there who have traded up from an sp ii even an sp a to a gfp etc or maybe from those that have dumped their forte amps for a gfa etc i am one of those folks who traded up from a to an audio research sp ii am i enjoying it yes the sp does sound better but at a price greg
sci.electronics	re pink noise in sci electronics wayne uva schools virginia edu tony wayne writes what is pink noise and how is it used in sound experiments pink noise has constant power per geometric frequency increment octave octave etc thus the khz khz octave has the same amount of noise power as the hz hz octave white noise has constant power per arithmetic frequency increment hz khz etc thus the khz khz band has the same amount of noise power as the hz hz band both bands are hz wide pink noise can be made by passing white noise thru a db octave filter usually approximated by a network of several rc pairs note you can t get db octave by using half a db octave network pink noise is commonly used in audio power response measurements it shows up on audio spectrum analyzers with octave related bands as a flat line across the bands davep
sci.electronics	re need info on dsp project there is a file at the simtel archives called adda zip i think that is for dsp
sci.electronics	making up odd resistor values required by filters when constructing active filters odd values of resistor are often required i e something like a k ohm resistor it seems best to choose common capacitor values and cope with the strange resistances then demanded is there a pd program out there that will work out how best to make up such a resistance given fixed resistors of the standard values per decade etc it is a common enough problem yet i cant recall seing a program that tells that rx ry rz gives rq starting with q and finding prefered values x y and z cheers ian h
sci.electronics	re electronic parts in nyc does anyone here know where i can find a modem and comm software for an apple iie i would prefer in manhattan but new jersey would work too david tillyer datcc cunyvm cuny edu
sci.electronics	re can radio freq be used to measure distance in sci electronics rgc bcstec ca boeing com robert g carpenter writes i m wondering if it s possible to use radio waves to measure the distance between a transmitter s and receiver yes it s called radar seems to me that you should be able to measure the signal strength and determine distance this would be for short distances ft and i would need to have accuracy of inches or so depends on the environment in a static environent such as a waveguide yes in a dynamic environment with objects moving about the multipath kills this concept how about measuring vertical distance as well any chance or am i getting ridiculous what is the difference between vertical and horizontal what frequencies would be best for this or does matter this depends on the required range the required accuracy the allowable ambiguity in range the frequencies the fcc etc allow you to use
sci.electronics	re pink noise tony wayne writes what is pink noise and how is it used in sound experiments tony pink noise is a random signal with more low frequency components than white noise if you look at the frequency spectrum of white noise at a frequency analyzer you will find that the spectrum power density is flat which means that every frequency is present in the noise signal often pink noise is obtained from white noise by integrating of low pass filtering a white noise signal therefore pink noise contains much more low frequency components the effect of pink noise is sometimes used to simulate thunder or roaring animals an additional low pass filter with variable cutoff frequency will explain you why enjoy it wouter
sci.electronics	re x oversampling cd player mcmahan netcom com dave mc mahan writes in a previous article kolstad cae wisc edu joel kolstad writes in article hcbc un l dd netcom com hcb netcom com h c bowman writes i just bought a new portable cd player for the office and i notice that it proudly proclaims times oversampling on the box now while i think i understand what oversampling is the rate of discrete samples exceeds the highest frequency component of interest by some factor i don t understand this times business it seems to me that when i bought my first cd player was it really years ago the specs said times could someone please tell me whether i m getting senile if i m not then what good does it do for the player to take samples at a higher rate the data is only ever read once barring mistracks and such of course and eventually gets turned into khz bit two channel data oversampling takes two discrete data points and interpolates n points between them for n times oversampling when i asked people said that the interpolation was not simply linear interpolation but significantly more complicated you are quite correct in your understanding the filtering is not interpolation as that would distort the frequency content of the signal they do interpolate it s not linear interpolation though you are correct that the frequency content is not altered more specifically the baseband spectrum is preserved and so is every nth image spectrum the other n in n image spectra are removed where n is the oversampling rate you are listening to generally these players run the samples thru an all pass filter network i have done this for ecg waveforms from a person s ideally the filter has a gain of from hz to hz and a gain of from to the new nyquist frequency in practice a finite transition band is required and there is also a certain amount of pass band ripple and stop band leakage with a high order eg taps digital filter a very good approximation can be easily achieved bit deleted about observations of interpolation filter at work in case you care the filtering method uses an fir finite impulse response filter i d guess that cd makers use the same kind of method anybody out there know the real answer i d say that they use a tapped delay line with resistor op amp weighting to accomplish the filtering this strikes me as the most cost effective method for volume production runs no they actually use a digital fir just like yours but built in hardware on custom vlsi chips for mainly economic reasons anyway then the purpose of oversampling is to move the effective sampling rate up to n times khz in order to use higher frequency antialiasing filters for the same quality filter higher oversampling lets you build cheaper filters whereas for the same price filter higher oversamplings lets you build better filters so assuming the quality of all other components in a cd player remained the same oversampling should allow a manufacturer to produce slightly better sound due to anti alias filtering actually i think the only reason they do this is so that they can say that they have a marketting gimic i would guess that it is acutally cheaper to filter an oversampled signal than not you can use sloppier components and give the filter a roll off that isn t so sharp it s too bad that they charge more for something that i think is actually less costly to build i guess that the answer is somewhere between the two as an interesting aside some of you out there may be aware of a scheme used by pioneer and wadia which is called by pioneer at least legato link i haven t heard one of these players but by reading advertising blurb and a couple of pseudo technical articles i deduced that all they do is build a lousy digital oversampling filter and let a load of the first image ie aliassed spectrum through talking to bob stuart of boothroyd stuart aka meridian confirmed my suspicion he said that it sounded awful but then he would wouldn t he christopher christopher hicks paradise is a linear gaussian world cmh uk ac cam eng also reported to taste hot and sweaty
sci.electronics	re can radio freq be used to measure distance in article otter hpl hp com tgg otter hpl hp com tom gardner writes what is the difference between vertical and horizontal gravity doesn t gravity pull down the photons and cause a doppler shift or something just kidding
sci.electronics	re can radio freq be used to measure distance in article c v m c bcstec ca boeing com rgc bcstec ca boeing com robert g carpenter writes i m wondering if it s possible to use radio waves to measure the distance between a transmitter s and receiver seems to me that you should be able to measure the signal strength and determine distance this would be for short distances ft and i would need to have accuracy of inches or so this would be susceptible to fading multi path etc we used to use a system at the shop made by tellurometer in south africa it used a ghz signal between units across the distance to be measured the ghz was just the carrier the real signals were several switched ones around mhz or so whose relative phases at the receiver would read out the digits of the distance down to cm if needed the units came with psychrometers sp to measure the relative humidity and instructions for correction of the measurements due to rh and temp they were rather heavy and required an operator at each end current technology uses polarized reflectors dual polaization tx rx and psuedo random coding of a radar pulse about the same resolution at x band much better at ghz only one end is heavy regards stu beal ve mwm u csx cciw ca national water research institute burlington ontario canada we d made it through yet another nuclear winter and the lawn had just trapped and eaten it s first robin kyle j spiller
sci.electronics	re arcade style buttons and joysticks in article r r innq i gap caltech edu franko cco caltech edu frank filipanits writes can anyone tell me where it is possible to purchase controls found on most arcade style games many projects i am working on would be greatly augmented if i could implement them thanx in advance hap controls just outside chicago sells these andrew macrae actually it s happ and some of their equipment can be found in the parts express catalog they show switches for joysticks for and trackballs for they also have pinball parts you re right it is happ controls inc but you can buy direct from them i don t have a phone number with me but anyone interested in it can email me for it i don t remember their button price but the joystick price was per dozen at last check should be slightly higher for one or two but cheaper than parts express as for the trackballs i don t know the new price either but i can sell you rebuilt arcade trackballs for that includes new rollers and new bearings when nec i also have a pile of used joysticks and buttons that i would be willing to sell please email to address below if interested donnie please note the new email address below donald barnes coach i m having blackouts barnes yoda csc ncsu edu computer engineering kind of a nice break in the day isn t it sam n c state university
sci.electronics	need hydrophone info i don t know much about hydrophones so i m looking for any information that will help avoid problems i haven t thought of i would like an inexpensive hydrophone and amplifier with tape line level outputs something like edmund sells for they also sell just the microphone hydrophone head for but how does one construct the enclosure any information would be greatly appreciated thanks bill mohler bill occs cs oberlin edu
sci.electronics	video recording of a vga screen hi all i think the subject says it all does anyone know how to take the rgb h vsync from a standard vga connector and record them on video tape any help is appreciated mark j cargill why i have a program for the pc that i want to videotape so that i can show people how the program works at a presentation i am giving
sci.electronics	flexible solar cells two or three years ago i saw a report on tv about a company that had developed a method of making solar cells on a flexible substrate my failing memory has convinced me it was some flexible metal i now have an application that requires a flexible solar cell and was hoping someone out in netland knows something about this company or a similar product any help would be greatly appreciated wayne dawe pick a path any path but don t send me wayne r node hub org anything bigger than k wayne r node gts org wayne r node pci on ca wayne r node uucp
sci.electronics	re electronic parts in nyc in article apr trintex uucp elr trintex uucp ed ravin writes trans am electronics canal street near th ave lots of surplus type stuff they ve been out of busines for years several other electronics or surplus type places are still on canal street not any more about years ago they all closed when ramco electronics city closed it took weeks and many dumpsters to clear everything out so i heard there are a few places that sell connectors and phone wires but no chips capacitors or discrete stuff sylvan wellington is still on broadway and canal but they re not cheap and not surplus it s mostly a tv repairman s store jeffrey jonas jeffj panix com jeffrey jonas jeffj panix com
sci.electronics	re long distance ir detection in article wb omc dynamo ecn purdue edu wb omc dynamo ecn purdue edu duane p mantick writes duane yeesh you will be nailing those irleds may i suggest getting your mitts on the siemens sfh irled this unit is designed to take some big current pulses if you can get your duty cycle down a bit it will output nearly a watt mw with real short duty cycle times nice thing about the sfh is that it is cheap i got mine for about cents a piece even though i had to buy of them are you saying that you have some extras that you would like to do some cost recovery on i may be interested i think for practical and cost reasons i am limited to envelope detection so that leaves me with only increasing the output power and increasing the optical gain at the receiver as methods to extend range btw i have seen irleds with outputs up to watts honest watts i don t have the book here at work so i can t recall the company name the watter ain t cheap around but if you want some power mamamia that s pretty hot they also have a watt a watt and a watt device in their line and will sell small quan to individuals if you are interested i can find the book at home and get the pertinent info yes i m interested in the company name i have access to an extensive data book collection with that kind of power are we getting into an area where eye safety is getting to be a problem now as for the position detector you might try eltec in florida phone number listed in the etid is they seem like nice people their specialty is passive infrared detection devices so they might be able to help you out they are a long way from me but they might be a better source than i can find around here i m curious about your applications if you don t mind saying the device sounds like it could be useful in a lasertag game although you d need to up your carrier signal concept to khz i m keeping my application confidential for now raising the frequency should be no problem in fact one respondent to my question said that i may not have to mimic the duty cycle normally used by ir detector chips stan burton dnd crad dres dtd mss agcg sburton dres dnd ca dre suffield box medicine hat ab canada t a k
sci.electronics	re long distance ir detection in article apr macc wisc edu jvannes vms macc wisc edu writes you are probably referring to the products of opto diode corp mitchell road newbury park ca the make some amazing irled s the really high powered devices are arrays of or led s on a to header the chip model puts out watts in response to a amp us pulse at a duty cycle i think these are designed as illuminators for ir vision systems jeez that should do it i would also be interested in the application here i work with a dance and technology program and want to build something to track dancers on a foot wide stage from feet away very interesting application controlled lighting and environment moderate distances might be more interesting than my application just a thought you could use a roof mounted ir sender similar in operation to a tv remote control that tells each persons coded ir pulser to send a pulse a hamamatsu detector as was mentioned in a previous message in this thread would give the current position store and collate this on a computer and you could replay the movements on the screen interesting stan burton dnd crad dres dtd mss agcg sburton dres dnd ca dre suffield box medicine hat ab canada t a k
sci.electronics	re making up odd resistor values required by filters in sci electronics idh nessie mcc ac uk ian hawkins writes when constructing active filters odd values of resistor are often required i e something like a k ohm resistor it seems best to choose common capacitor values and cope with the strange resistances then demanded is there a pd program out there that will work out how best to make up such a resistance given fixed resistors of the standard values per decade etc it is a common enough problem yet i cant recall seing a program that tells that rx ry rz gives rq starting with q and finding prefered values x y and z since you re worrying about the third decimal place i assume you re using tolerance resistors and capacitors
sci.electronics	ntsc horiz vert drive from black burst i would like to hook up some cameras that were recently donated to our local community cable tv station which have sync inputs in the form of horizontal and vertical drive our station sync is a black burst which works fine with other boxes with genlock style inputs can anyone point me at a design article or whatever showing how to produce the horizontal vertical drive signals thanks in advance jack powers
sci.electronics	re radio electronics free information card in article c ulqg i acsu buffalo edu v mb k ubvmsb cc buffalo edu neil b gandler writes how does the radio electronics free information cards work do they just send you some general information about the companies that advertise in their magazine or does it also give you sign you up for a catalog it varies you may get a catalog or price list from the advertiser or if the ad was a specific product a slec sheet on that product or line mike schuster schuster panix com compuserve com schuster shell portal com genie mschuster
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article apr imag fr schaefer imag imag fr arno schaefer writes in article apr w lumina edb tih no ketil edb tih no ketil albertsen tih writes in article apr reed edu mblock reed edu matt block writes i guess what i am saying is that your question is difficult if not impossible to answer what exactly do you want to know do you need a good one for a project you are working on how secure must it be are you trying to crack one that someone else has used i can probably make suggestions assuming the activity is strictly legal in general it is a bad idea legally to tamper with copy protection it can also lead to corruption of files which you necessarily do not have back ups of being as they are copy protected which can be devestating do you have absolutely no ideas for practical applications and are merely curious please clear up those questions and i ll try to help as much as i can may we interpret this as an offer to volunteer as editor for a copy protection faq i am quite sure that i am not alone welcoming such an initiative i will volunteer to ask some of the questions if you will provide the answers hey now will you stop encouraging him copy protection only serves one pur pose to keep the honest buyer from making legal backup copies it will definitely not stop any pirates if you want to protect you soft supply a good documentation and support this is imho the only way of effectively protecting software there are several types of copy protection and the point is to make sure the user is using a legitimate copy the simplest and virtually fool proof way is for the program to somehow fixate itself to the machine it was installed on some sort of checksum serial number whatever so a copy put on a different machine not installed from original disks will not work the program is definitely backupable if restored to the same machine depends on the programmer don t use a disk drive characteristic if the user did an upgrade to the machine he she should reinstall all programs any way no document look up no disk wear and tear i did not say that the originals would allow only one install the user s conscience should do that i know i ll get flamed for this but with the increasing number of casual users who either unknowingly or don t care about the software copyrights it s the truth i have friends who ask me for copies of my latest games all the time and when i refused they went after somebody else casual pirating is becoming more of a problem some sort of copy protection will discourage the casual copying i ve seen what some of my friends dug up somewhere latest and the greatest games all cracked within days of actual release you know how many bytes you need to change in x wing to disable the quiz two yes two and don t ask me which ones they are determined pirates are unstoppable given enough time but their results do not spread that far since pirate boards are not that well known and easily tracked once found by authorities it is the casual pirates that the copy protection is determined to discourage what i believe the companies should do is implement the above plus a special patch once the user registers that loudly exclaims upon bootup registered to xxxxx address city state zip and disables the above two benefits encourages registration cuts down on pirating and makes it more traceable because if the patch s registration message is encrypted it will be quite hard to change and therefore provides a stable trail of who allowed their copy out of their hands and thus violated their license agreement this way the legitimate users who does not register will experience minimal discomfort who does major upgrades to their computer frequently as only problem they have is they won t be able to restore to another computer the registered users would have proven they are legitmate users and therefore gains full rights and can restore to different machines on the other hand the software company now have a record of where this particular copy is supposed to be if this user s copy was found to be somewhere it was not supposed to be we know who has broken their license agreement of course a hacker can break that eventually but that s not the point is it kasey chang
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected if companies compressed their executables with lzw andd did some kind of encryption in the process this change two bytes here thing would go right out the window michael chen from the depths of our most lucid horrors spring our fond hopes and pure desires mchen cs psu edu except what comes from hell
sci.electronics	magic layout editor i heard that magic has been transported to the macintosh environment does anybody know where i can get a hold of this thanks in advance for any responses rich vanderbeek dept of the army aberdeen proving ground md
sci.electronics	re ir detector cards in article apr monu cc monash edu au craw yoyo cc monash edu au sebastian filzek writes hi people ok heres my problem i keep hearing about these little credit card type of things which detect ir light i think that they are avaliable in the states and even in england but alas i live in australia could someone please inform me if i can get these things over here and if so where and how much sure edmund scientific company e glouchester pike barrington nj the card is on page of the last catalog i got the cost ranges from us to us depending on size and range of wavelengths the card responds to john
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected sehari iastate edu babak sehari writes in apr reed edu mblock reed edu matt block writes in article sehari marge ecss iastate edu sehari iastate edu babak sehari writes i was wondering what copy protection techniques are avaliable and how effective are they has anyone have any experience in this area with highest regards babak sehari uh oh umm there are a number of copy protection schemes some involve modifying the physical media and some involve encryption schemes c all of the ones that have existed over the course of computing have been successful for a time i recall however near monthly releases of new ways to crack the copy protection scheme of the latest releases the fact is none of them are completely secure or anywhere near it some are more or less difficult to crack and some have already been cracked i guess what i am saying is that your question is difficult if not impossible to answer what exactly do you want to know do you need a good one for a project you are working on how secure must it be are you trying to crack one that someone else has used i can probably make suggestions assuming the activity is strictly legal in general it is a bad idea legally to tamper with copy protection it can also lead to corruption of files which you necessarily do not have back ups of being as they are copy protected which can be devestating do you have absolutely no ideas for practical applications and are merely curious please clear up those questions and i ll try to help as much as i can incidentally the uh oh at the top is indicative of the dread anyone who has watched their friends hacking equipment be carted off feels when they are asked how to hack the area you are broaching is wrought with dangers many of which include breaking the law or at least addressing it from one side or the other matt i have written a program and i want to market it i would like certain degree of protection since my main custmers are individuals and not the cooperations i know laser hole burning method and hardware key method however my software is going to cost only so i can not afford that also at this low price i can not afford people make too many copy of my software well i guess say upto illigal copying is ok by me however i do not want someone to get a copy of pctools and copy my software off course i never meant to forbid the true hackers from copying since they can develope a better program anyway with highest regards babak sehari one of the most popular methods of course is the password check where they ask you for a word from page x line y and word z but this is pitifully simple to remove unless you throw some checksums into the main part of your program and some self rewriting code to confuse some people also make sure that your program can not be run out a debugger another method of course is to not even make bad sectors on the original disk just write a certain key to a certain unallocated sector to help you here you also must do the code protection schemes mentioned in the first paragraph make sure you also fill the rest of the unallocated parts of the disk with garbage as well or they wanna be crackers can just look for the junk in some random sector like you mentioned there are the laser holed disks and hardware keys but they are both expensive and a pain in the butt for the end user which you is the opposite of what you want another configuration that can be used is to save the configuration of the machine that it is being installed to in the most undecipherable format you can think of if the program does not find that this is the same system it requests being installed by the original disk again the original disk should be encrypted compacted have many sectors that should be checked and anything else you can think of to make sure that the original cannot be copied once again you must put code encryption self rewriting code and multiple crc checks in the program to make sure that it does not get changed among other things this also protects your program from virii if the program detects a change in its code tell the user that a virus has been detected in the program tell them the program is virus secure and remember you have helped the world kill some pirating and kill some viruses feel good i hope that i have helped have fun knock some cracking out well you can t do it everything that can be written can be cracked but you ll piss em off in the process goodbye what is the program that will be sold george gruschow death do you gronk ag yfn ysu edu ggruscho nyx cs du edu
sci.electronics	re subliminal message flashing on tv in article kc wz bubble org bob kc wz bubble org bob billson writes kennehra logic camp clarkson edu rich theman kennehan says hi i was doing research on subliminal suggestion for a psychology paper and i read that one researcher flashed hidden messages on the tv screen at ths of a second is that possible i thought the take a look over in alt folklore urban there is a thread about subliminal messages on tv the fact that subliminal messages don t work aside an image can t be flashed on a tv screen fast enough to not be noticed well yes and no the image can t be on the screen less than of a second but a mixture of images that s about of the field that was supposed to be there and of the subliminal addition could be overlaid for one field producing the same overall effect to our sluggish retinae of a discrete image projected for second although like the previous poster i have to reserve my doubts about the effectiveness of said discrete image in steering my subconscious around bgb lihan ccwf cc utexas edu the only reason the world hasn t really bruce bostwick dissolved into total chaos is that from the great state of texas murphy s law also applies to murphy
sci.electronics	re can radio freq be used to measure distance robert g carpenter rgc bcstec ca boeing com wrote i m wondering if it s possible to use radio waves to measure the distance between a transmitter s and receiver seems to me that you should be able to measure the signal strength and determine distance this would be for short distances ft and i would need to have accuracy of inches or so you might try looking at whats available in laser locating systems they work best for close work mile and under rf is used for much longer distances in two major modes transponder and phase measurment transponder requires you send a pulse to another station and it returns it to you and you measure the round trip time minus the receiver time phase measurements require two or more transmitting stations sending the same frequency signal multiplexed in time a receiver can pick them up and measure the phase shift between signals maps can be drawn that plot the lines of position that correspond to a certain phase shift between two stations john eaton hp vcd johne
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected ketil edb tih no ketil albertsen tih writes in article apr reed edu mblock reed edu matt block writes i guess what i am saying is that your question is difficult if not impossible to answer what exactly do you want to know do you need a good one for a project you are working on how secure must it be are you trying to crack one that someone else has used i can probably make suggestions assuming the activity is strictly legal in general it is a bad idea legally to tamper with copy protection it can also lead to corruption of files which you necessarily do not have back ups of being as they are copy protected which can be devestating do you have absolutely no ideas for practical applications and are merely curious please clear up those questions and i ll try to help as much as i can may we interpret this as an offer to volunteer as editor for a copy protection faq i am quite sure that i am not alone welcoming such an initiative i will volunteer to ask some of the questions if you will provide the answers ketil albertsen that s great read my article edit out the personal formality and save george gruschow death do you gronk ag yfn ysu edu ggruscho nyx cs du edu
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected schaefer imag imag fr arno schaefer writes in article apr w lumina edb tih no ketil edb tih no ketil albertsen tih writes in article apr reed edu mblock reed edu matt block writes i guess what i am saying is that your question is difficult if not impossible to answer what exactly do you want to know do you need a good one for a project you are working on how secure must it be are you trying to crack one that someone else has used i can probably make suggestions assuming the activity is strictly legal in general it is a bad idea legally to tamper with copy protection it can also lead to corruption of files which you necessarily do not have back ups of being as they are copy protected which can be devestating do you have absolutely no ideas for practical applications and are merely curious please clear up those questions and i ll try to help as much as i can may we interpret this as an offer to volunteer as editor for a copy protection faq i am quite sure that i am not alone welcoming such an initiative i will volunteer to ask some of the questions if you will provide the answers ketil albertsen hey now will you stop encouraging him copy protection only serves one pur pose to keep the honest buyer from making legal backup copies it will definitely not stop any pirates if you want to protect you soft supply a good documentation and support this is imho the only way of effectively pro tecting software best regards arno arno schaefer ensimag e annee email schaefer silene imag fr tel no you re not paranoid the world is really out to get you your wrong never give up update your program as much as possible with a very low price of upgrade to registered users and please make sure you keep a list of registered numbers george gruschow death do you gronk ag yfn ysu edu ggruscho nyx cs du edu
sci.electronics	cross compilers and assemblers shareware can anyone point me to a cross compiler and or assembler for the motorola hosted by a pc compatible preferable free or shareware also does anyone know of a gnu cc port to this chip thanks in advance
sci.electronics	wanted a scope i am looking for a mhz scope in good condition please email me or call me at
sci.electronics	re ir detector cards craw yoyo cc monash edu au sebastian filzek writes i think that they are avaliable in the states and even in england but alas i live in australia could someone please inform me if i can get these things over here and if so where and how much also are they really commonly avaliable in the states and if so then how much are they and who sells them maybe if i cant get one here i ll write to one of the companies over seas anyway thanks in advance sab i got mine for about bucks at radio shack the instructions do say to expose it to light for a while but mine doesn t seem to require very much to make it work i just wish i could get a big sheet of the stuff abouit x for a reasonable price it isn t cheap from what i ve seen duane
sci.electronics	re long distance ir detection jvannes vms macc wisc edu writes you are probably referring to the products of opto diode corp mitchell road newbury park ca the make some amazing irled s the really high powered devices are arrays of or led s on a to header the chip model puts out watts in response to a amp us pulse at a duty cycle i think these are designed as illuminators for ir vision systems yeah that s the guys i would also be interested in the application here i work with a dance and technology program and want to build something to track dancers on a foot wide stage from feet away yeah that sounds a lot like lasertag anyway duane
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete in article apr cronkite ocis temple edu camter astro ocis temple edu carter ames writes i was just wondering one thing actually two i hope that this is the proper place to post this subject oh yeah this is a fine place we haven t had the why does concrete kill lead acid batteries thread in at least six months why does a lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored on a concrete floor the concrete simply sucks all the electrons out of the battery and drains them into the ground another explanation implausible as it is is that the lead acid battery needs to be periodically charged topped off otherwise the battery self discharges and then undergoes irreversible chemical reaction naawwwww the concrete sucks the life out dana h myers kk jq views expressed here are mine and do not necessarily dana locus com dod reflect those of my employer this extra supports the abolition of the and wpm tests
sci.electronics	re ir remote control receiver ritterbus wcsub ctstateu edu writes if you want to buy one try radio shack or else a tv repair shop can probably order one btw the carrier frequency is khz and each different tv vcr cable box stereo manufacturer uses a unique pulse scheme to perform each different function on their equipment some tv s including my rca set at home uses simple carriers which i think run between and or khz there is no tone decoding in it all one has to do to piss the thing off is just hook an irled up to a variable oscillator and tune through wreaks all kinds of havoc similarly my vcr remote changes channels on my cable box always seems to change the cable box to channel when you do the pause play soooo some things do have some overlap to them duane
sci.electronics	i need to access reports on hall effect devices does anyone know of the whereabouts of technical reports that i can access via the internet
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article sehari du cc iastate edu sehari iastate edu babak sehari writes stuff deleted also at this low price i can not afford people make too many copy of my software well i guess say upto illigal copying is ok by me you should be clear in your mind what your goal is two possible goals are maximizing you income from your program and minimizing the number of illegal copies which get created accomplishing doesn t usually accomplish most vendors have concluded that copy protection reduces the number of normal legitimate sales by far more than it increase sales by virtue of changing copiers to purchasers and hence merely reduces revenue most legitimate buyers nowadays including me have had bad experiences with copy protected products e g hard to make a legitimate backup incompatabilties when new system on system upgrade etc and they won t touch them with a ten foot pole wally bass
sci.electronics	re ir detector cards also are they really commonly avaliable in the states and if so then how much are they and who sells them maybe if i cant get one here i ll write to one of the companies over seas radio shack part infrared sensor card us
sci.electronics	re can radio freq be used to measure distance in article otter hpl hp com tgg otter hpl hp com tom gardner writes in sci electronics rgc bcstec ca boeing com robert g carpenter writes i m wondering if it s possible to use radio waves to measure the distance between a transmitter s and receiver yes it s called radar well actually not quite both radar and radio altimeters measure distances by measuring the time required to transmit a signal then receive its reflection from a target radar generally uses pulses while radio altimeters use either pulses or a modulated continuous wave transmission in the case of the latter highly accurate distance measurement can be made as an example the original bendix ala radio altimeter was accurate to foot at feet altitude note however that this is a different method of measuring than the poster originally asked about the problem with gaining accurate measurements between a transmitter and a seperate receiver is that you need a highly accurate time base which starts at the receiver at the exact instant the transmitter triggers this cannot be wire connected since radio waves will actually travel faster in free space air in this case than wire the difference is called the velocity factor of the cable so you need to resort to a common timebase that is automatically corrected for distance etc something like a pll connected to a gps receiver should do the trick triggering both the transmitter and receiver simultaneously sound expensive not too bad but plan on spending a few bucks in both equipment and effort why not go to a different method surveyors use a laser light system where again the reflection time is measured why not try this sounds like something a p e should know about anyway seems to me that you should be able to measure the signal strength and determine distance this would be for short distances ft and i would need to have accuracy of inches or so this is actually highly inaccurate since the power output of a transmitter varies from unit to unit there are variances in the antenna and transmission line and the receiver may also vary both from unit to unit and the same unit over time you would need to continuously calibrate the entire system with the radio altimeter this is also done but since everything is located at one place it is much easier to do note especially that the time base for the r a receiver and transmitter is one unit also depends on the environment in a static environent such as a waveguide yes in a dynamic environment with objects moving about the multipath kills this concept nope fm capture effect says that the strongest signal wins that is unless the two interfering signals are seperated by more than db in signal strength this is the one problem that makes altimeters inaccurate at very low altitudes signals bouncing off runways tend to be very strong what frequencies would be best for this or does matter as high as possible to eliminate outside influence and also to enhance attenuation of multipath signals radio altimeters typically use frequencies around ghz hope this helps jack brindle ham radio wa fib internet jackb mdd comm mot com
sci.electronics	test this is just a test to see if this works
sci.electronics	packet radio on the pc i m looking for any and all information regarding packet radio implementation on the pc software hardware whatever please e mail any info to koberg spot colorado edu thanks
sci.electronics	re hi volt from battery you might want to get a disposible flash camera shoot the roll of film then take it apart they re snapped together we used a bunch of them at my wedding but instead of sending the whole camera in i just took the film out it s a standard mm canister and kept the batteries they use one aa battery sorry i didn t keep any of the flash electronics charlie brett ft collins co
sci.electronics	re rpm floopy drives update in article r j linnf clover csv warwick ac uk csulo csv warwick ac uk mr m j brown writes hopefully this should sort it all out not bad for quid normally pardon my ignorance of foreign currency and exchange rates but what is a quid how does it relate to the british pound or whatever it s called and what is that in american dollars thanks mark s underwood ee student university of kentucky lab assistant boyd hall microlab a tiny little division of uk library microlabs e mail msunde mik uky edu
sci.electronics	help with phone wire which ones are tip ring i just bought a little gizmo that is supposed to be installed in series with the tip or ring lines of the phone wire which ones are those suppose i am holding a regular phone wire such that the little plastic tooth on the little plastic square thing with the naked lead ends that you plug into the phone is facing down and away from me which of the wires that i see is the tip and which is the ring please reply to mlevin husc harvard edu mike levin
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article mchen apr terra cs psu edu mchen terra cs psu edu michael chen writes if companies compressed their executables with lzw andd did some kind of encryption in the process this change two bytes here thing would go right out the window not entirely true a friend of mine was having trouble finishing the game gods and asked me for help since he could not find a trainer small patch that lets you play without losing lifes the game is compressed but i did find one byte which when changed in the original compressed file would not affect the decompression and would also prevent the shield in the game from being tured off turning therefore making you invincible there are many other progs whose copy protection was defeated one way or another and i have seen examples of this with my own eyes the copy protection schemes defeated were various such as using protected mode compressed executables progs that load and execute other progs possibly compressed dongles key disks etc i believe that persistence overcomes even the very best copy protection schemes michael chen from the depths of our most lucid horrors spring our fond hopes and pure desires mchen cs psu edu except what comes from hell alex t ivopol cyborg kauri vuw ac nz external user victoria university of wellington new zealand i speak for myself and no one else
sci.electronics	silicon storage inc i would appreciate very much the address and or phone of this company they supposely make analog eeproms thanks in advance doug
sci.electronics	re cad program for electronics what i want the cad program to do is to draw diagrams by dragging elements onto the screen and in this the elements needed are as diverse as vacuum tubes to ics case with pins try draftchoice its not windows but its shareware and object oriented use it with printgl for high quality output bruce
sci.electronics	help me i m not clever how to make power supply i need to make a power supply that can take input from a cigarette lighter in a car v dc and drive volts at up to amps i know enough to know that a simple voltage divider with two resistors won t do it right can such a thing be made from radio shack able parts without too much difficulty jps bf p s i ve looked for premade things like this at radio shack but none of it seems to go any higher than about ma joel skelton north avenue trade school dept of round things gt a prism gatech edu ask for scooter technologies and receive
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article apr csus edu kschang sfsuvax sfsu edu kuo sheng kasey chang writes there are several types of copy protection and the point is to make sure the user is using a legitimate copy the simplest and virtually fool proof way is for the program to somehow fixate itself to the machine it was installed on some sort of checksum serial number whatever so a copy put on a different machine not installed from original disks will not work okay so what do you do if some part of the machine presumably the part on which the code number or whatever that the program has fixated itself upon goes bad you replace that part and now your program won t run because it s on a different computer this is of course assuming that the program uses something in rom like the bios serial number maybe and not a disk based code number obviously if the drive goes bad you ll be reinstalling the stuff anyway i work in a computer lab which is part of the university microlab system we have the wonderfully fun task of maintaining well over a hundred machines both pc and macintosh as well as administering a network of over next machines i personally am concerned only with a small lab with ten pc s and ten mac s i m not the manager but help him with admin often imho copy protection schemes of any sort are nothing more than a major headache for the legitimate user anyone who wants a copy of your program and doesn t care about legality will get a copy period pirate board or no pirate board i too have friends who blatantly and quite successfuly hack copy protection schemes practically in their sleep let s consider what goes on in our lab almost daily we have at least one machine down sometimes several due to some goofball screwing up some setting or other on a piece of software admittedly we being students mostly are not the world s most efficient and effective network administrators but we try keeping even the twenty machines that are partly my responsibility even vaguely looking and acting similar to the average user and maintaining behind the scenes consistency is a real headache but not so bad a headache as trying to remember twenty different folder locations of norton utilities when some guy trashes his disk often we have hardware problems at peak business times and have to do some parts swapping to get stuff working temporarily well i ll cut to the chase and quit boring y all the point is often we have to re install software and copy configuration files etc from machine to machine by far the easiest way we have found to do this is to get one machine working exactly the way we want to then copy the complete setup of this machine to the other nine of that machine s type this ensures us that for at least ten minutes we have ten identical machines to work with having them networked simplifies this considerably as our major packages wordperfect windows etc are all network versions and thus only one copy to mess with often however we need to install a package requested by some instructor to one some or all of the machines for a special project this is usually a hand written or shareware etc program similar to what i believe the original poster was asking about the few we have had with copy protection schemes have caused nothing but nightmares for us to maintain in short don t waste your time with a copy protection scheme it s sort of like outlawing guns the criminals will get your program anyway and you will only be hurting the legitimate honest user write a good user s guide and tech manual whatever else for your program please do this regardless of whether you copy protect the thing and only distribute the manual to licensed users jack the price to cut your losses but please take a cue from the major companies who can admittedly afford the costs of illegal copies far better than you and don t burden the legitimate user with a copy protection scheme sorry for the tirade but it s been a long day here mark s underwood ee student university of kentucky lab assistant boyd hall microlab a tiny little division of uk library microlabs e mail msunde mik uky edu the program is definitely backupable if restored to the same machine depends on the programmer don t use a disk drive characteristic if the user did an upgrade to the machine he she should reinstall all programs any way no document look up no disk wear and tear i did not say that the originals would allow only one install the user s conscience should do that i know i ll get flamed for this but with the increasing number of casual users who either unknowingly or don t care about the software copyrights it s the truth i have friends who ask me for copies of my latest games all the time and when i refused they went after somebody else casual pirating is becoming more of a problem some sort of copy protection will discourage the casual copying i ve seen what some of my friends dug up somewhere latest and the greatest games all cracked within days of actual release you know how many bytes you need to change in x wing to disable the quiz two yes two and don t ask me which ones they are determined pirates are unstoppable given enough time but their results do not spread that far since pirate boards are not that well known and easily tracked once found by authorities it is the casual pirates that the copy protection is determined to discourage what i believe the companies should do is implement the above plus a special patch once the user registers that loudly exclaims upon bootup registered to xxxxx address city state zip and disables the above two benefits encourages registration cuts down on pirating and makes it more traceable because if the patch s registration message is encrypted it will be quite hard to change and therefore provides a stable trail of who allowed their copy out of their hands and thus violated their license agreement this way the legitimate users who does not register will experience minimal discomfort who does major upgrades to their computer frequently as only problem they have is they won t be able to restore to another computer the registered users would have proven they are legitmate users and therefore gains full rights and can restore to different machines on the other hand the software company now have a record of where this particular copy is supposed to be if this user s copy was found to be somewhere it was not supposed to be we know who has broken their license agreement of course a hacker can break that eventually but that s not the point is it kasey chang
sci.electronics	re laser vs bubblejet in article apr news columbia edu kn cunixa cc columbia edu kimball ng writes kolstad cae wisc edu joel kolstad writes one other thing there are bubblejets and then there are bubblejets there are a few bubblejets out there that produce rather mediocre output such as hp s dinky little bubblejet whereas most produce really good looking output such as hp s deskjets ibm and canon both produce some of the really good style bubblejets i am considering either an inkjet or bubble jet printer i ve seen inkjet printers and i was impressed with the near lazer quality i have heard a lot of bad things about the cheaper bubble jet printers does the ink smudge very easily and take a long time to dry thanks t c l s hbl d a w c y e g f t k s m graham wilson lsg cck coventry ac uk ll b law iii coventry university s b g l y z n o x a u v j
sci.electronics	mov advice please hello can somebody tell me what kind of mov s are most useful for a computer surge protector radio shack have types both rated v one for a a current and the other for a on the other hand commercial surge protectors i have seen claim a clamping voltage of v v which seems to me in imply a rated voltage of about v v sqrt what is the right kind while at it ow important is really the emi rfi module is there really any noticable level of such noise in the power line please e mail to me as this group has too much volume for me to be able to follow thanks
sci.electronics	re what to do with old k simms in r mmninn p master cs rose hulman edu henslelf nextwork rose hulman edu lige f hensley writes in article netnews upenn edu jhaines eniac seas upenn edu jason haines writes i was wondering if people had any good uses for old k simms i have a bunch of them for the apple mac and i know lots of other people do to i have tried to sell them but have gotten no interest so if you have an inovative use or want to buy some simms sure i ll give you bucks for all of them i think they are really neat to put onto key rings when somebody makes the mistake of asking about it you can totally geek out tc
sci.electronics	tunnel diodes on i g spice does anybody have an idea how to model a tunnel diode on spice thank you martin krajci mkrajci wilkes wilkes edu
sci.electronics	re power signal surges in home in article apr porthos cc bellcore com patter dasher cc bellcore com patterson george r writes in article apr mprgate mpr ca vanderby mprgate mpr ca david vanderbyl writes kludge grissom larc nasa gov scott dorsey writes my car unfortunately has so much computer junk under the hood that it s astonishingly sensitive to rfi hmmmmm this has possibilities if the police are in pursuit of a vehicle maybe they can bombard it with high energy rfi right so all the cops will be buying antique muscle cars for chase cars otherwise the police cars will die too i wonder if you could focus the rfi gun so the cops wouldn t have this problem mark s underwood ee student university of kentucky lab assistant boyd hall microlab a tiny little division of uk library microlabs e mail msunde mik uky edu
sci.electronics	re radar detector detectors in article c usk h h athena cs uga edu mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes there is or was a microwave tower next to florida s turnpike and you could watch the cars hit the breaks as they came in sight of it every morning funny i and most of the detector owning friends i have are generally able to remember such things as nearby microwave towers and radar detectors going off in exactly the same spon every day i know on i at the grayson ky exit there s a store just off the side of the road think it s a liquor store with what must be a security system that would make most federal prisons proud it s the only thing i ve ever driven by besides a cop that puts my whistler in oh my god he s right behind you mode i simply ignore the detector and use my eyes when i drive by that store seconds later all s quiet on the front and no problem mark s underwood ee student university of kentucky lab assistant boyd hall microlab a tiny little division of uk library microlabs e mail msunde mik uky edu
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected hey now will you stop encouraging him copy protection only serves one pur pose to keep the honest buyer from making legal backup copies it will definitely not stop any pirates if you want to protect you soft supply a good documentation and support this is imho the only way of effectively pro tecting software best regards arno i strongly disagree i think most pirating is done by amateurs who won t copy the program if diskcopy can t do it if you re talking a max goal of pirated copies i bet that anything that will beat diskcopy and can t be easily copied from a hard drive will suffice i hate hard copy manuals and would rather have all docs online not because i want to copy the program but because its usually faster and and convenient than sifting through an old book i can t find off deeper end why does everyone think they need to be able to make a backup copy almost all new software must be installed to the hard disk so you are left with the originals as your backups i think its a waste of time space and money as well as it makes it to tempting to lend out the backups no flames intended just my thoughts eric
sci.electronics	contracts for my computer law module i have been asked to write a computer contract for the supply of computer software to a business the software is being especially written for the company would anyone per chance happen to have a copy of a computer contract on their system which they could mail me if anyone has a computer contract but it contains sensitive material then i can assure them that it will remain confidential and i will not pass it on or allow anyone else to view it thanks t c l s hbl d a w c y e g f t k s m graham wilson lsg cck coventry ac uk ll b law iii coventry university s b g l y z n o x a u v j
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete carter ames camter astro ocis temple edu wrote why does a lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored on a concrete floor it could be that you stored it somewhere that it could become covered by moisture or damp air which would short out the terminals the same thing happens to my car citroen cv damp gets under the bonnet us hood and shorts the spark plugs to earth so it won t start the solution for the car is to clean the plug leads and spray with wd moisture repellant if damp is the problem then storing the battery off the ground may help i m not sure if spraying with wd would be safe since it is very flammable high percentage petroleum just a thought chris chris hand lecturer internet mail cph dmu ac uk dept of computing science voice x de montfort university the gateway fax fidonet leicester uk le bh linux free unix for ibm pcs
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete in article apr cronkite ocis temple edu camter astro ocis temple edu carter ames writes i was just wondering one thing actually two i hope that this is the proper place to post this subject why does a lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored on a concrete floor i decided to bring the battery in from the lawn mower and the motorcycle from the unheated garage this year to preserve them and i just went to use them and noticed that not only do they not work but they act like the two terminals are shorted i asked a friend and he said that you should never do that cause it ruins them but he couldn t tell me why thanks camter astro ocis temple edu i am not a battery expert but from recent reading a lead acid battery will self discharge at a relatively high rate and if stored in a discharged state will develop a condition i think is called sulfation in storage either the electrolyte should be removed and replaced for use fat chance i d ever do that at home or the battery should be stored on a trickle charge i have also i think read that the condition may be reversable if hooked up to a current limited charging circuit fro a long period of time the refernce i remember is to use c where c is the amp hours as the charging circuit and leave it hooked up for weeks some of this may only apply to gel type cells but i suspect the same applies to the liquid type richard dell
sci.electronics	re a question about vac outlet wiring in article apr mtu edu cmwolf mtu edu engineer by day asleep by night writes dave martindale dave imax imax com wrote they require two separate grounds one ground goes to the ground pin of the outlet and the other ground wire is connected to the outlet s mounting tabs and thus grounds the box and faceplate screw and metal faceplate if any i thought the ground was connected to the metal frame on the socket christopher wolf electrical engineer cmwolf mtu edu remember even if you win the rat race you re still a rat not in isolated ground recepticles usually an unusual color such as orange or yellow often used in low noise low leakage applications as mentioned earlier in the thread richard dell
sci.electronics	re packet radio on the pc koberg spot colorado edu allen koberg writes i m looking for any and all information regarding packet radio implementation on the pc software hardware whatever please e mail any info to koberg spot colorado edu thanks try rec radio packet michael a de kraker georgia state university internet regmad gsusgi gsu edu bitnet regmad gsuvm packet kd fkw w qo to iterate is human to recurse devine
sci.electronics	re uart needed really break detect in article alan alan apple com alan mimms writes actually detecting a break is done by watching for a character containing all zero bits with the framing error resulting from its receipt this true enough but means that the line stayed in the zero bit state even past the stop bit time slot which basically indicates a break there is no special way to detect break that i have found other than this there s no magic signal generated by uarts etc zilog scc rr break detect this is a very popular part but it has a number of quirks especially in hdlc mode signetics duscc rsr break start detect rsr break end detect two of the bits in the receiver status register you can enable an interrupt on either of these bits going high too also only one null will be put in the fifo per break detected this is simply the best serial chip i ve ever worked with many less quirks than the scc which is imho second best death to devices ii cccccc jim cathey ii sssscc isc bunker ramo ii cc taf c spokane wa iissss cc uucp uunet isc br jimc jimc isc br isc br com ii cccccc one design to rule them all one design to find them one design to bring them all and in the darkness bind them in the land of mediocrity where the pc s lie
sci.electronics	re atari processors in article apr das harvard edu squish endor uucp shishin yamada writes the atari used a cpu just like their entire bit line xe xe computers as well as the game machine wrong it has a the had some extra asic chips that were basically modified graphics chips and pia s for the joysticks it had one custome chip not an asic in the sense that word is now understood the tia sometimes known as the although most other manufacturers list that as the cia complex interface adapter tia stands for television interface adapter and it handles sound paddles and the minimal video hardware the possessed there was also a standard ram i o timer riot plus a voltage regulator and if memory serves a timer that s all later model might have incorporated many of the chips into one asci as the weight of the machines and part count decreased a lot over the years not according to the servicing documentation i have here the did not change intenally very much at all additionally i think the used k k and up to k of rom for their games roms were mapped into the upper k of the s address space k and k games were fine but later k and k games needed bank switching atari and others made much of these huge cartridges i have no idea how much ram it had to work with but i would hazard a guess of or k ram wrong it had bytes of ram from the riot this was multiply mapped into both page pseudo registers and page stack and also throughout the bottom k of memory tia registers also sat in this address space as bytes of ram was somewhat limiting some later cartridges also carried ram themselves which was interesting as atari had provided no write line to the cart this was managed by mapping the reads from ram into one address range and the writes into another but all the time this scheme ate into the very scarce rom address space ian
sci.electronics	re making up odd resistor values required by filters one way to make cheap trimmable resistors is to use a high wattage carbon composition resistor and saw a notch in it with a triangular file of course you can only increase the resistance not decrease it
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected cyborg kauri vuw ac nz xivo alex ivopol writes i believe that persistence overcomes even the very best copy protection schemes i would expect that cd rom software would not even need copy protection as the program on a cd rom would not fit onto a hard drive and it is impossible for the average and even not so average user to write to a cd rom copies of the software that still work could never be made hmmm now that i think about it with a creative tsr maybe disk swapping could be used to simulate files on a single disk you would need a tonne of disks though alex t ivopol cyborg kauri vuw ac nz external user victoria university of wellington new zealand i speak for myself and no one else andrew scott internet ascott tartarus uwa edu au
sci.electronics	re building a uv flashlight the simplest and cheapest soft uv bulb is an ar argon bulb or other argon bulb it works like a neon bulb except it glows purple it will cause stuff to fluoresce it requires very little power just a battery an oscillator and a step up transformer to about volts electronic goldmine has several uv lamps both as pre built units and kits ask for their catalog
sci.electronics	re power signal surges in home in article r jmoinn mb rave larc nasa gov kludge grissom larc nasa gov scott dorsey writes in article drand apr spinner osf org drand spinner osf org douglas s rand writes in article randall woof randall informix com randall rhea writes hams can legally run up to watts it is very unlikely however that a ham would be running that kind of power from a car ham rigs not possible either you d need about a amp alternator for just the amplifier i can just see it you need to slow down on a downgrade so you hit the push to talk button now that indeed is possible a good friend of mine is running about kw pep from his car yes he does have a second alternator yes he calls the rig an electronic brake since the engine noticeably slows when the key is down it has been a while since i knew the electronics of ham radio but i seem to remember that pep is actually x the real power which makes kw pep actually around w or was it x i disremember effective transmitted power is also odd in that it takes into account antenna height and geometry which is why a tv station with a kw klystron might advertise a megawatt if their antenna is on the top of the cn tower this is like sears hp though real watts still isn t impossible about a with a v alternator less if the alternator produces higher voltages it s only three horsepower taking into account inefficiencies you ll feel it when you hit the key but not too much chris lewis clewis ferret ocunix on ca phone canada psroff info psroff request ferret ocunix on ca ferret list ferret request ferret ocunix on ca
sci.electronics	re long distance ir detection in article apr macc wisc edu jvannes vms macc wisc edu writes i would also be interested in the application here i work with a dance and technology program and want to build something to track dancers on a foot wide stage from feet away could make for some interesting choreography light and sound could be controlled directly by the position of a dancer on stage or by the number of dancers on stage neat you could even build a spotlight that follows the dancer around on stage can you tell us more about what you re doing sounds like a very cool program caleb strockbine cstrockb ic sunysb edu
sci.electronics	help high data link i have a couple applications for high speed data links replacement of ultrasonic signal coaxial cables with fiber optic cable applying fiber optic slip ring for channel ultrasonics inspection system for candu reactor inspection remote data link from ultrasonic pipeline inspection device including transfer of channels via microwave or other higher speed transfer of ultrasonic data from remote inspection head i would be happy to share sources other info as acquired please mail me or post here this is a long term upgrade over the next years thanks truemner mac truemner rd hydro on ca ontario hydro automated ndt welding r d fax toronto canada
sci.electronics	re need to find out numb in article uupcb ozonehole com gerald belton ozonehole com gerald belton writes subject need to find out numb date apr gmt al there is a number you can call which will return a synthesized al voice telling you the number of the line unfortunately for the al life of me i can t remember what it is the telephone technicians al use it all the time we used to play around with this in our al dorm rooms since there were multiple phone lines running between al rooms it probably wouldn t help for you to post the number since it appears to be different in each area for what it s worth in the new orleans area the number is easy to remember what slmr ask me anything if i don t know i ll make up something here in our city dialing either newer exchanges or sic will get a synthesized message works great for having people call you back at unlabeled pay phones regards bill ronald w bill butts jr gentlemen gentlemen electrical engineering department you can t fight in here the wichita state university this is the war room butts shocker ee twsu edu
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article r sbinnkap flop engr orst edu noeler xanth cs orst edu eric richard noel writes i hate hard copy manuals and would rather have all docs online not because i want to copy the program but because its usually faster and and convenient than sifting through an old book i can t find just mho but i prefer hardcopy books because you can have three or four of them open spread across the bed next to the desk in my dorm and reference them while using the program full screen the windows help things come closest to good on line documentation i ve seen but they generally aren t detailed enough and would probably take a large amount of space even compressed which is at a premium on my system in fact the manuals are the primary reason i bought borland s c compiler instead of using the one the lab licensed in the lab of course i ve got a shelf full of books to help me out when i m stuck to each his own off deeper end why does everyone think they need to be able to make a backup copy almost all new software must be installed to the hard disk so you are left with the originals as your backups i think its a waste of time space and money as well as it makes it to tempting to lend out the backups we ve destroyed about six sets of original microsoft word for mac and word for windows may have been a bad batch of disks don t have the faintest idea what happened to them they just went bad weren t stored near any magnetic fields or otherwise mistreated indeed they were only used once given this and the massive headaches finding a working set of disks to fix some of the machines that periodically go down i d say having working backups is a godsend i sure wish we d had them sometimes i think murphy s law holds true more often than newton s when we needed them i think it s sortof like snake antivenin of the time you have absolutely no use for it but when you need it boy do you ever need it i don t have backups of my originals at home but then my machine doesn t see anywhere near the use abuse of these here at the lab and so i consider it less of a risk still i usually make working copies of them when i install them and then eventually re use these working copies for something else no flames intended just my thoughts just mine too btw before anyone notices my mentioning copying programs from machine to machine when we do installs here and wonders about the licensing the upper management non student staff of course are meticulous in checking with providers of the software and making sure we are sticking to the license agreements mark s underwood ee student university of kentucky lab assistant boyd hall microlab a tiny little division of uk library microlabs e mail msunde mik uky edu
sci.electronics	re packet radio on the pc in article regmad gsusgi gsu edu regmad gsusgi gsu edu michael de kraker writes koberg spot colorado edu allen koberg writes i m looking for any and all information regarding packet radio implementation on the pc software hardware whatever michael a de kraker question about packet radio deleted georgia state university how about rec radio amateur packet at least at my site there is no general packet radio i e non amateur newsgroup that said i would definately subscribe to r r a packet if you want to learn about all aspects of amateur packet radio at both the high and low ends also i would get the faq from the group and then post any specific questions to that group everything i could tell you is probably in the faq and the people who really know what s going on all seem to be on r r a packet although they might be here too you never know hope it helps andy collins kc yey acollins uclink berkeley edu
sci.electronics	re radio electronics free information card in article c ulqg i acsu buffalo edu v mb k ubvmsb cc buffalo edu neil b gandler writes how does the radio electronics free information cards work do they just send you some general information about the companies that advertise in their magazine or does it also give you sign you up for a catalog radio electronics sends each company a bunch of computer printed address labels for all the people who circled that company s number the company sends whatever it wants to normally a catalog michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete in article apr cronkite ocis temple edu camter astro ocis temple edu carter ames writes why does a lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored on a concrete floor i decided to bring the battery in from the lawn mower and the motorcycle from the unheated garage this year to preserve them and i just went to use them and noticed that not only do they not work but they act like the two terminals are shorted i asked a friend and he said that you should never do that cause it ruins them but he couldn t tell me why this topic was beaten to death a year or so ago the concrete is not the problem lead acid batteries often fail from disuse not being charged for a long time but there s no way the concrete floor could be the cause of the problem michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article r h r o p uniwa uwa edu au ascott tartarus uwa edu au andrew scott writes i would expect that cd rom software would not even need copy protection as the program on a cd rom would not fit onto a hard drive and it is impossible for the average and even not so average user to write to a cd rom copies of the software that still work could never be made hmmm now that i think about it with a creative tsr maybe disk swapping could be used to simulate files on a single disk you would need a tonne of disks though there are many programs on cd rom that fit on a harddisk not all software is that big but we re getting there guido klemans internet rcstage urc tue nl valid until may listen very carefully i will say this only ones michelle of the resitance
sci.electronics	re atari processors ifarqhar laurel ocs mq edu au ian farquhar writes in article apr das harvard edu squish endor uucp shishin yamada writes the atari used a cpu just like their entire bit line xe xe computers as well as the game machine wrong it has a for those who would like to know the was a without irq or nmi and with only address lines giving k memory space it had one custome chip not an asic in the sense that word is now understood the tia sometimes known as the although most other manufacturers list that as the cia complex interface adapter tia stands for television interface adapter and it handles sound paddles and the minimal video hardware the possessed didn t know about it being called the thats the cia found in the commodore i don t believe this chip existed when the was around the tia was mapped into the bottom bytes of page and shadowed in the bottom bytes of page to get an image on the screen you had to wait until the raster line your picture started at load bitmaps for this line into the sprite registers tell them what x positions to take how many duplicates you wanted etc then do it all again for the next line this took all of the processor s time during the visible portion of the display there was also a standard ram i o timer riot plus a voltage regulator and if memory serves a timer that s all the ram was mapped into the top bytes of page and shadowed in page the has a zero page addressing mode on most instructions that is both shorter and faster than the normal ones so it is important on a machine like this to have the scratchpad ram in page unfortunately it also wants its stack to be in page the stack pointer is bits and the high byte of the address is hardwired to the iot section was mapped into page somewhere bit i o registers can t remember if each bit could be independantly set to i or o like the and and bit timer with a programmable prescaler i think this was some power of there were no interrupts in the system so many games would set up the timer at some known time go away and do something else for a while then sit and wait for the timer to run down there was no logic in the box to do address decoding the riot had at least chip select pins probably one active high one active low and i imagine the tia was much the same various address lines were fed directly to chip selects the likes to have rom right at the top of memory so the had to use roms with active high chip selects not exactly normal so some cartriges had a in them to convert this to the more usual active low chip select john west
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article apr csus edu kschang sfsuvax sfsu edu kuo sheng kasey chang writes byteocide what i believe the companies should do is implement the above plus a special patch once the user registers that loudly exclaims upon bootup registered to xxxxx address city state zip and disables the above two benefits encourages registration cuts down on pirating and makes it more traceable because if the patch s registration message is encrypted it will be quite hard to change and therefore provides a stable trail of who allowed their copy out of their hands and thus violated their license agreement you take two copies with a different registration id compare them byte for byte and you know where they are located usually you will be able to find out what is what after that and what keeps me form registering as john doe from the company public domain yellow brick road tinseltown or something kasey chang guido klemans internet rcstage urc tue nl valid until may listen very carefully i will say this only ones michelle of the resitance
sci.electronics	anyone build anything interesting with pic c x devices i ve just started programming with the pic c and i d like talk to similar like minded people have you built anything interesting if so i d be interested in talking about various aspects yes i already have the application sheets assembler simulator cheers stuart stuart lea tel fax umist university janet sl uk ac mcc nessie b main bldg po box internet sl nessie mcc ac uk manchester uk m qd weather is here wish you were beautiful
sci.electronics	looking for nc telecaption decoder module does any one know where i can get a telecaption decoder module need it to build a close caption decoder thanks wayne wait till finals are over that is when the fun really begins enjoy the sun while its still young and out there when one dreams of his home town he is not wishing that everything could be as it was but he wishes that he was still young to enjoy it all again
sci.electronics	re making up odd resistor values required by filters idh nessie mcc ac uk ian hawkins writes when constructing active filters odd values of resistor are often required i e something like a k ohm resistor it seems best to choose common capacitor values and cope with the strange resistances then demanded is there a pd program out there that will work out how best to make up such a resistance given fixed resistors of the standard values per decade etc it is a common enough problem yet i cant recall seing a program that tells that rx ry rz gives rq starting with q and finding prefered values x y and z i once wrote such a program in bbc basic it was very crude and took around seconds to do an exhaustive search with a small amount of intelligence and told you the best combination rq and the best below rq if you want to write one just store the prefered values in an array and then search the solution space using three nested loops i m sure you could knock this up in an hour christopher christopher hicks paradise is a linear gaussian world cmh uk ac cam eng also reported to taste hot and sweaty
sci.electronics	why circuit boards are green not that the question is anything important but i am still curious why is that almost all printed circuit boards are green i have seen a few blue ones but no red yellow company logo etc is there a technical reason or could it be that the marketing geniuses have not tought about it yet juha
sci.electronics	pcmcia newsgroup sci electronics from martin vuille synapse org subject pcmcia does anyone know who to contact to obtain a copy of the pcmcia standard thanks mv olx td procontrol kemptville on pm
sci.electronics	electronic design mag newsgroup sci electronics from martin vuille synapse org subject electronic design does anyone know the telephone number for the circulation department of electronic design magazine mv olx td procontrol kemptville on pm
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete in article apr dmu ac uk cph dmu ac uk chris hand writes carter ames camter astro ocis temple edu wrote why does a lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored on a concrete floor i think it s because the lead gets coated with lead oxide if the battery is not being charged or discharged i remember some advice from an ancient car manual guide my father had which was to use car batteries to power a garage clock or something similar when they re not in a car this is supposed to prevent the oxidation but i ve no idea if it really works the concrete floor connection is a red herring it could be that you stored it somewhere that it could become covered by moisture or damp air which would short out the terminals this may contribute to discharging but would be reversible the same thing happens to my car citroen cv damp gets under the bonnet us hood and shorts the spark plugs to earth so it won t start the solution for the car is to clean the plug leads and spray with wd moisture repellant if damp is the problem then storing the well this is off topic but back in the days when i used to drive bangers i never found wd to do anything that wiping with a dry cloth did nt do i think the effectiveness of wd is a myth invented by the guy who owns the company battery off the ground may help i m not sure if spraying with wd would be safe since it is very flammable high percentage petroleum just a thought chris steve collyer
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete in article nx athena cs uga edu mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes in article apr cronkite ocis temple edu camter astro ocis temple edu carter ames writes why does a lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored on a concrete floor i decided to bring the battery in from the lawn mower and the motorcycle from the unheated garage this year to preserve them and i just went to use them and noticed that not only do they not work but they act like the two terminals are shorted i asked a friend and he said that you should never do that cause it ruins them but he couldn t tell me why this topic was beaten to death a year or so ago it seems to me that the original question was for advice on his problem not a history lesson i think that if this question comes up from time to time then people should get a civil answer the concrete is not the problem lead acid batteries often fail from disuse not being charged for a long time but there s no way the concrete floor could be the cause of the problem could anyone please explain what happens with a battery and is there any cure to get it back into life michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
sci.electronics	re atari processors in article r f kp uniwa uwa edu au john gu uwa edu au john west writes ifarqhar laurel ocs mq edu au ian farquhar writes wrong it has a for those who would like to know the was a without irq or nmi and with only address lines giving k memory space yes but still not a for those differences same instruction set of course it had one custom chip not an asic in the sense that word is now understood the tia sometimes known as the although most other manufacturers list that as the cia complex interface adapter tia stands for television interface adapter and it handles sound paddles and the minimal video hardware the possessed didn t know about it being called the thats the cia found in the commodore i don t believe this chip existed when the was around yes the same number but an entirely different device i should have qualified this further by stating that this was the pal version of the tia i am not sure that the ntsc tia would have a different number the tia was mapped into the bottom bytes of page and shadowed in the bottom bytes of page to get an image on the screen you had to wait until the raster line your picture started at load bitmaps for this line into the sprite registers tell them what x positions to take how many duplicates you wanted etc then do it all again for the next line this took all of the processor s time during the visible portion of the display does anyone on the net actually have details of the tia as this is the only device i have not yet discovered details about atari australia when asked claimed that their attempts to get the programmers documentation for the had failed as the us head office had refused to provide it to chip selects the likes to have rom right at the top of memory so the had to use roms with active high chip selects not exactly normal so some cartriges had a in them to convert this to the more usual active low chip select i saw a couple of cheaper devices with pn s and a couple of resistors hooked up as a cheap inverter nasty but workable and cheaper than a inverter if labor costs almost nothing ian
sci.electronics	looking for z sti mk by mostek hi i am looking an integrated circuits for my z based computer the circuit is called z sti serial timer interrupt mk and made by mostek mostek is called sgs thompson today i have been in contact with sgs thompson unfortunately they me told that z sti is obsolete so my question is if anyone know if i can get hold of that circuits are there any companies that specialize in selling circuits that are no longer in production i have contacted several electronic brokers in sweden but without any success i would appreciate if you could give me hint where i should continue looking even companies in the united states would be fine since this circuit is pretty crucial to me thanks in advance thomas thor royal institute of technology stockholm sweden
sci.electronics	re help me i m not clever how to make power supply in article hydra gatech edu gt a prism gatech edu skelton joel phillip writes i need to make a power supply that can take input from a cigarette lighter in a car v dc and drive volts at up to amps i know enough to know that a simple voltage divider with two resistors won t do it right can such a thing be made from radio shack able parts without too much difficulty jps bf p s i ve looked for premade things like this at radio shack but none of it seems to go any higher than about ma joel skelton north avenue trade school dept of round things gt a prism gatech edu ask for scooter technologies and receive see if radio shack has a national semiconductor adjustable voltage regulator national part number lm t or lm k these devices are rated for an input to output differential of up to volts amps digi key corp has these parts as well as several other useful regulators if you don t have their catalog their phone number is i can only guess that you may intend to recharge a vdc nicad battery with this device and if i m right you may want to look through some of the hobbiest books to get various ideas for battery charging circuits first if you get stuck e mail me your fax number if you have one and i ll send you some suggestions or schematics e mail willisw coe nw clemson edu
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article c x a h ms uky edu msunde mik uky edu writes in article r sbinnkap flop engr orst edu noeler xanth cs orst edu eric richard noel writes i hate hard copy manuals and would rather have all docs online not because i want to copy the program but because its usually faster and and convenient than sifting through an old book i can t find just mho but i prefer hardcopy books because you can have three or four of them open spread across the bed next to the desk in my dorm and reference them while using the program full screen the windows help things come closest to good on line documentation i ve seen but they generally aren t detailed enough and would probably take a large amount of space even compressed which is at a premium on my system in fact the manuals are the primary reason i bought borland s c compiler instead of using the one the lab licensed in the lab of course i ve got a shelf full of books to help me out when i m stuck to each his own agree personally i cannot flip from page to page on a screen and retain information as easily as in the written page off deeper end why does everyone think they need to be able to make a backup copy almost all new software must be installed to the hard disk so you are left with the originals as your backups i think its a waste of time space and money as well as it makes it to tempting to lend out the backups we ve destroyed about six sets of original microsoft word for mac and word for windows may have been a bad batch of disks don t have the faintest idea what happened to them they just went bad weren t stored near any magnetic fields or otherwise mistreated indeed they were only used once given this and the massive headaches finding a working set of disks to fix some of the machines that periodically go down i d say having working backups is a godsend i sure wish we d had them sometimes i think murphy s law holds true more often than newton s when we needed them i think it s sortof like snake antivenin of the time you have absolutely no use for it but when you need it boy do you ever need it ditto s in fact at work where things are dead if the backup is no good i insist on having at least a level backup system it seems that whenever you have good backups you never need them but if you don t have them murphy guarantees that you ll suffer for it i don t have backups of my originals at home but then my machine doesn t see anywhere near the use abuse of these here at the lab and so i consider it less of a risk still i usually make working copies of them when i install them and then eventually re use these working copies for something else no flames intended just my thoughts just mine too and mine of course richard dell
sci.electronics	wd as moisture repellant was lead acid batteries concrete stephen dogmatix inmos co uk stephen collyer writes the same thing happens to my car citroen cv damp gets under the bonnet us hood and shorts the spark plugs to earth so it won t start the solution for the car is to clean the plug leads and spray with wd moisture repellant if damp is the problem then storing the well this is off topic but back in the days when i used to drive bangers i never found wd to do anything that wiping with a dry cloth did nt do i think the effectiveness of wd is a myth invented by the guy who owns the company back in high school i used to work for a detailing company and one of the services we offered was an engine cleaning remove all that oil before you sell the car unfortunately we did not have a high pressure washer so we would use one several miles from the shop on more than one occasion after washing the engine it would not start as water would have gotten under the distributor i would put a plastic bag around it to try and minimize this around the spark plug wires etc and it would be nearly impossible to try and wipe all these areas down with a dry rag the usual solution was to carry a can of wd and when the car wouldn t start to spray all the likely areas and it would then start on the very first time it may be a myth but it certainly kept me from being stranded at a car wash rodney radford computer graphics imaging sasrer unx sas com sas institute inc x cary nc
sci.electronics	microstepping does anyone know where to get a schematic for a micro stepping circuit any help would be appreciated mcole nmsu edu
sci.electronics	hm or hm i have some mice that have a chip numbered hm and hm i have not been able to find information on these any help would be appreciated mcole nmsu edu
sci.electronics	switching ps questions greetings i ve recently decided to chuck the linear regulators and learn the black magic art of switching power supplies before anyone flames me i know both have their place anyways i ve built the basic up down converters with pretty good results efficiency but i m running into problems when i try to design build anything that puts out serious amps i know it can be done i have some v a guts on my bench but something puzzles me i m using a simple choke as the storage element basicly a toroid with a single winding but all commercial models use transformers with many windings i traced a few and they seem to use some of the winding for the usual error feedback but some of the others seem to loose me what are they for better than that anyone have a full schematic for one of these that i could get a copy of i d love to see how they manage to squeeze out so much from such low volume my other problems in getting high amps good efficiency are lack of sources of ideal components calculated and limited knowledge of the whole topic i m doing this on my own not school mind you in fact i have yet to take any course that covers transistors so is the answer to the accumulation of dead commercial models and truning into a scavanger not that it s not what i m doing now and getting understanding schematics and a bit more of the mind boggling theory take care p s my goal is v a in car battery vac out and on the other end v vdc a v a vdc a and vdc a the distance between the two will be more than feet of gauge but less than feet would like to have a working model in a year or so do i have a chance to make it filip i ll buy a vowel gieszczykiewicz best e mail fmgst pitt edu all ideas are mine but they can be yours for only so respond now i live for my ee major winsurfing programming sca and assorted dreams mb drive linux has mb and ms dos has mb ms dos is worried
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete michael covington mcovingt aisun ai uga edu wrote this topic was beaten to death a year or so ago the concrete is not the problem lead acid batteries often fail from disuse not being charged for a long time but there s no way the concrete floor could be the cause of the problem ditto the only remote and i do say remote possibility is that if the ground was real cold f the battery might freeze an split but then it would probably freeze anyway charlie brett ft collins co
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete in article apr cronkite ocis temple edu camter astro ocis temple edu carter ames writes i was just wondering one thing actually two i hope that this is the proper place to post this subject why does a lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored on a concrete floor i decided to bring the battery in from the lawn mower and the motorcycle from the unheated garage this year to preserve them and i just went to use them and noticed that not only do they not work but they act like the two terminals are shorted i asked a friend and he said that you should never do that cause it ruins them but he couldn t tell me why thanks camter astro ocis temple edu what happens is that i heard this discussed on northern exposure there is a molecular juxtaposition of the molecules in the battery and the molecules in the concrete this acts as an attractant to ufos actually their crew members and they arrive at the scene of the battery concrete combination then they proceed to suck all the energy out of the batteries remedy set the battery on a nonconcrete floor jack
sci.electronics	caller id chip info requested i just got caller id except bell calls it call display and didn t know what i was talking about when i asked for caller id i got the cheapest display box i could find and hope to convert it to serial out the chip used is an pin dip marked cdt and i presume the is the date i m hoping somebody out there knows something about this chip to save me a very strange few hours hooked up to a scope asking my friends to call me again and again i ll post any interesting replies and my experiences simon tooke simon sco com
sci.electronics	pin out for c does anyone know the pin outs for the c eprom i have bought several of them none of which has come with the pin outs any info would be appreciated sean kelly sysop amizon bbs always looking for classic video games for the following systems atari atari colecovision atari intellivision vectrex
sci.electronics	question on addressing i have a question about accessing certain addresses on a chip particulary a c eprom although i don t know that much about it as i understand it there s a pin on the chip that when voltage is applied kicks up the address the question is how do you determine how many bytes the address is incremented by for example if i have code i want to be accessed at and also at say how do i move the address pointer to those positions thanks for any info sean kelly sysop amizon bbs always looking for classic video games for the following systems atari atari colecovision atari intellivision vectrex
sci.electronics	re adcom cheap products much deleted about assembly in usa vs other i wish to focus on the subject of warm running amplifiers sure the amp runs very fairly hot but that s how you get an amp to sound incredibly good an amp that runs hot has no bearing on how it s gonna sound the amp you have probably is running class a the whole day because either the engineer or manufacturer of that amp wanted to skimp on heatsinking or cooling to save costs hmmmmm there is a correclation between warm running amps and good sound or in your words it does have a bearing on now i don t suggest that everyone run out and create combination stove amplifiers that will degrade lifespan but a cold running circuit is much more suceptible to temperature variation with varrying current than is a warm running one and since junction resistance is a function of temperature this has a detrimental effect on linearity a few facts bias points vary with temperature junction resist varrie with temp adcom products do not run class a if you still don t beleive this assertion consider the warm up requirements for most good test equipment or better yet just listen to an amplifier warm up on many designs its quite audible on mine about minutes for the output stage many hours for the drivers fortunately the drivers are not switched in any experiment or when drawing conclusions from listening betcareful to seperate the effect of device temperature from bias idle current level both have a positive correlation with low distortion and good sound quality and high bias results in warmer operation all other factors being equal grant
sci.electronics	re suggestions on audio relays in article c qsbf iek ms uky edu billq ms uky edu billy quinn writes i built a little project using the radio shack vdc relays to switch audio i got pretty bad clicks when the thing switched i was doing most of the common things one is supposed to do when using relays and nothing seemed to get rid of the clicks my question is is there a good relay relay circuit that i can use for switching audio so that there will be no noise of any kind on the audio lines i will appreciate any advice or references to advice also exact part numbers company names etc for the relays will help the first step is to make sure that there is no dc component intentional or not on the audio lines to be switched if neither the output or input presents an unintentional dc level let s say they re capacitively coupled then putting a k resistor from each input to ground and from the output to ground is a good precaution against leakage in any coupling caps presenting a dc level that is guaranteed to cause a click if the device presents an unintentional dc level that is from more than just coupling capacitor leakage then you need to remove the dc before switching with coupling capacitors of your own if you have more than one relay each relay switching one input through to a common output you can use make before break switching where for a brief instant both sources are connected during a switch change this may mask the switch click an audio switch that is clickless is made by taking a light bulb and making your own ersatz opto isolator with a light dependent resistor ldr sealed inside a piece of black heatshrink many broadcast consoles use this older but time honored technique claro actually makes a complete optisolator like this but i don t have a part number handy radio shack has a ldr grab bag you might want to try for a simple solid state clickless switch that is cheap you might try looking at the cd analog switch that is commonly available or its older predecessor the again the dc component must be removed prior to switching other alternatives include jfet switches both discrete and ic and diode switching which works relatively well surprisingly all the above with their pitfalls and application tips could easily make a subject for a multi page article solid state switches may induce a click of their own when turned on due to charge being injected into the audio line through device capacitance when the control signal changes state techniques to minimize this include lowering the impedance of the signal paths through the switch differential switching and slowing the risetime of the control pulse with the cutting the click can be as simple as putting k k resistors in series with the control pins hope this helps at least get you started dave medin phone w ssd networking h intergraph corp m s gd internet dtmedin catbyte b ingr com huntsville al uucp uunet ingr b catbyte dtmedin everywhere you look at least around my office the opinions expressed here are mine or those of my machine
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected kuo sheng kasey chang kschang sfsuvax sfsu edu wrote the program is definitely backupable if restored to the same machine depends on the programmer don t use a disk drive characteristic if the user did an upgrade to the machine he she should reinstall all programs any way no document look up no disk wear and tear this is not a good idea i upgraded my motherboard last fall i would have been quite pissed at any software that would have forced me to reinstall simply because i changed motherboards any info in the bios is too volatile to use as a checksum are you going to require that a user re install all their software if they add mb of ram to their computer i did that a couple of weeks ago it s in the bios and if software had told me this isn t the machine you installed me on i would never have used that software again really bad idea i did not say that the originals would allow only one install the user s conscience should do that this is silly it s much easier to loan disks to a friend and let them do an install than to backup your copy already on disk and then give them that your scheme isn t going to stop anyone you know how many bytes you need to change in x wing to disable the quiz two yes two and don t ask me which ones they are do you know any assembly language at all all anyone needs to do if find the part of the code that does the quiz and insert a jmp instruction to just completely skip it not that difficult really and there is very little that commpanies can do to stop this type of thing using pklite or some similar utility would help but only if the resulting compressed exe were tagged as uncompressable what i believe the companies should do is implement the above plus a special patch once the user registers that loudly exclaims upon bootup registered to xxxxx address city state zip and disables the above this is by far the best idea you presented in your post making it plainly obvious who registered is going to stop casual pirates but the determined ones are just going to answer joe blow to the question of what s your name so this won t stop them in the long run pirates are always going to win this fight they simply have more time to work on the software and figure out the protection scheme steve madsen sjmadsen nextsrv cas muohio edu ask me about linux the free unix
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article rcstage urc tue nl rcstage urc tue nl guido klemans writes in article apr csus edu kschang sfsuvax sfsu edu kuo sheng kasey chang writes byteocide what i believe the companies should do is implement the above plus a special patch once the user registers that loudly exclaims upon bootup registered to xxxxx address city state zip and disables the above two benefits encourages registration cuts down on pirating and makes it more traceable because if the patch s registration message is encrypted it will be quite hard to change and therefore provides a stable trail of who allowed their copy out of their hands and thus violated their license agreement you take two copies with a different registration id compare them byte for byte and you know where they are located usually you will be able to find out what is what after that probably but the point is the company make the registration patch not you sure you can probably find another registerred user and compare notes but why it s not hindering you in any way unless you are just hacking problem about people who cut too much from quoting and what keeps me form registering as john doe from the company public domain yellow brick road tinseltown or something nothing but if you read my whole suggestion i m saying that you register via mail by mailing in your registration card then the company send you the patch which includes the info you put on the registration card kasey chang
sci.electronics	re need help with video detection circuit verity jack sns com steve verity writes i am trying to build a circuit that detects the presence of video vs a blank screen by monitoring the r g and b outputs of a graphics card it should be able to detect the presence of a single pixel at mhz which would mean detecting a ns pulse it should also be able to tell the difference between a blank screen about mv and a dim screen say around mv oh yes it also needs to be cheap my first circuit was a dismal failure i used compariators each compariator had the input going to one of the guns the input went to a reference created by a voltage divider a potentiometer the first problem was that the compariator was way too slow i needed to get several pixels in a row before it would fire the compariators so i could have a whole screen full of text but my the second problem is that there was more noise on the reference then the smallest difference between a blank screen and a dim screen in fact the difference between completely black and completely white is only mv i am wondering if i am going to have to amplify the video signals to make this work there are faster compariators but they are expensive and require split supplies i would need to replace my quad compariator with three compariators and create a whole new power supply circuit at this point i think what i need is some sort of transistor circuit transistors are fast and cheap and should do the trick unfortunately i am way out of my league when it comes to designing transistor circuits so i am appealing to the net for help any ideas tips circuits pointers references etc would be greatly appreciated oh yes i only sample the output of this thing every second or so so i don t need a fast response time at all however i haven t found a way to take advantage of that fact thanks a lot for any help anybody might be able to give of course you will have my undying gratitude steve verity steve verity maxed on midi verity jack sns com in order to get the ns response time you need you are better off going to an ecl slicer which can run off a single or v supply you just need to bias or do some level shifting perhaps to get it in the range check out the ecl k books for a simple cheap solution dino inqmind bison mb ca the inquiring mind bbs winnipeg manitoba
sci.electronics	info wanted about standard phone line greetings i m a novice in this area i m trying to gather info on standard phone line settings quick questions if i just want to send out a beep over the phone lines can i do it with some function generator tie it up to one of those phone wires which one of those wires should i connect to my dtmf chip as audio in any help would be much appreciated thankx in advance handy trisakti uc mizzou missouri edu
sci.electronics	re voltage regulation and current limiting acollins uclink berkeley edu andy collins writes one not so quick question to throw out there for you guys for our class project we need to design and build a power supply to the following specs voltatge adjustable from v current limited at a voltage must stay within of designated value for i from a ac ripple less than mv rms of course we can t just use an adjustable voltage current limiting regulator chip our problem is with the current limiting i e we ve found stuff to do the rest of the parts of the circuit what the supply must do if presented with a load which would draw more than a given the supply voltage is reduce the voltage so that the current will equal one amp thus if we were to short the thing with the ammeter we should read one amp if we measure the current through a ohm resistor at v we should read one amp and the output voltage by necessity must be v the only basic idea we have seen for the current limiter involves a circuit which will pull current off of the base of the output power transistor and therefore reduce the output so does anybody have any ideas we could work from thanks in advance andy collins kc yey acollins uclink berkeley edu ps if anybody wants to flame this as a stupid project i agree fully but i still have to do it its graded you can design for ramp shutoff brick wall current limit or even fold back cutoff sounds like you want brick wall current limit your lead is correct to pull down the bias to the series regulator base drive in order to get the brick wall you need enough voltage gain on the current sensor normally a darlington on the current sensing resistor will be adequate but for infinite gain use an op amp to sense the current releative to a stable voltage reference and use a driver to turn off the base bias on the series pass transistor phase compensation may be necessary with this closed loop control system if yopu have more than degrees phase shift in your feedabck circuit at unity gain ok dino inqmind bison mb ca the inquiring mind bbs winnipeg manitoba
sci.electronics	re making up odd resistor values required by filters idh nessie mcc ac uk ian hawkins writes when constructing active filters odd values of resistor are often required i e something like a k ohm resistor it seems best to choose common capacitor values and cope with the strange resistances then demanded is there a pd program out there that will work out how best to make up such a resistance given fixed resistors of the standard values per decade etc it is a common enough problem yet i cant recall seing a program that tells that rx ry rz gives rq starting with q and finding prefered values x y and z cheers ian h when trying to choose a resistor with a tolerance better than you need a trimmer or to screen devices it can t be made from adding resitors of value in parallel since the smaller device will have the error of to cope with you have choices a live with the error of tolerance devices for low q circuits or low sensitivity designs b buy resistors with better than tolerance vishay dale c use trimmers or sot s select on test dino inqmind bison mb ca the inquiring mind bbs winnipeg manitoba
sci.electronics	blue led s so what s the story here we re all stuck with the regular green red and off yellow orange led s what gives anybody have a scoop on fairly low priced blue led s just out of curiosity of course inspiration comes to o baden sys bison mb ca those who baden inqmind bison mb ca seek the baden de bari unknown baden inqmind bison mb ca the inquiring mind bbs winnipeg manitoba
sci.electronics	tran tube i ve got a pr a eimac unused transmitter tube for sale best offer so far is that s getting close to what i ll sell it for hamfest prices have been about it works guaranteed original packaging dave medin phone w ssd networking h intergraph corp m s gd internet dtmedin catbyte b ingr com huntsville al uucp uunet ingr b catbyte dtmedin the opinions expressed here are mine or those of my machine
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete the battery goes dead primarily becaust the floor is cold the temperature combined with self discharge promotes sulfation which ruins the plates of the battery i strongly suspect that the only reason the battery doesn t go dead as quickly on a dirt surface is because cement tends to be quite cooler
sci.electronics	re why circuit boards are green in article apr news cs tut fi kuusama kaarne cs tut fi kuusama juha vtt writes not that the question is anything important but i am still curious why is that almost all printed circuit boards are green i have seen a few blue ones but no red yellow company logo etc is there a technical reason or could it be that the marketing geniuses have not tought about it yet juha the color of the board shows the composition of it hence the use of it original and older boards were bakelite composition and were brown phenolic spelling was a tan most non filled fiberglass boards used in computers are green filled fiberglass is blue teflon is white as boards evolved more and more demands were made of them first boards were used mainly in audio circuitry couldn t be used in high voltage or rf because it would arc and burn most boards today are fiberglass the type being chosen by its use and cost boards in satellite and microwave communication are teflon and ceramic as the fiberglass and other boards are conductive they actually work more as a capacitive dialectric but the word conductive simplifies explaination at the high frequencies another printed circuit material used mainly in automotive and interconnections is a thin flexible mostly mylar material and is used to connect the front of the vehicle etc to the back instead of wiring harnesses camcorders use this to intereconnect the boards inside where wires would be a nuisance am working on a generator made by hewlet packard right now and the entire board is gold plated boy it looks expensive hope i got most of my facts right as i am working from memory of material read my education was pre transister tom tom wagner audio visual technician malaspina college nanaimo british columbia loc fax callsign ve gda weapon kentucky rifle snail mail to site q c rr nanaimo british columbia canada v r x i do not recyle i keep everything all standard disclaimers apply
sci.electronics	harris semiconductor s answerfax information h h a rrrrr rrrrr iiiii ssss h h a a r r r r i s hhhhhh aaaaa rrrrr rrrrr i ssss h h a a r r r r i s h h a a r r r r iiiii ssss harris semiconductor now has answerfax answerfax is on line hours a day days a week so you can instantly receive datasheets and application notes by using your touch tone telephone and fax machine the number to call is it is not set up to do international calls at this time the general decision tree for the answerfax is as follows the numbers are the available selections welcome to harris semiconductors answerfax select if you select for an are familiar with explanation of answerfax answerfax select to order select for a a document the list of catalogs document list is new products in the catalogs linear products get them first data acquisition products digital signal processing products discrete power and intelligent power products application notes select appropriate document select appropriate catalog do you want to order do you want to order anything else if yes anything else if yes you will be taken back you will be taken back to the selection decision to the selection decision what is phone number for your fax what is your name request the instructions end bill werner bill werner wwerner hsscam mis semi harris com harris semiconductor wwerner thor mlb semi harris com melbourne florida life is but a candle and a dream will give it flame rush caress of steel
sci.electronics	mk data needed hi could someone please send me enough info to talk to a mk it s some kind of multifunction peripheral chip made by mostek i believe any help would be greatly appreciated thanks in advance dave ddexter solaria mil wi us technology thru broken parts
sci.electronics	data paging info wanted hello i m looking for information on alphanumeric pagers and how the data is sent from the paging transmitter and how i would go about building a device to decode the paging data like my pager does and feed it though an rs port i m planning on seperating different paging messages and different pagers in software to keep amount of hardware i need down does anyone know what chips motorola are good for decoding numeric and alphanumeric paging data and then stuffing it down an rs port basically any baud rate is fine i already have a radio reciever with headphone level output for the audio signal from the paging tower but i d be interested in anything you know about pagers including the type of radio recievers they use thanks in advance theo email theo walt caps maine edu
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article apr csus edu kschang sfsuvax sfsu edu kuo sheng kasey chang writes in article rcstage urc tue nl rcstage urc tue nl guido klemans writes in article apr csus edu kschang sfsuvax sfsu edu kuo sheng kasey chang writes byteocide what i believe the companies should do is implement the above plus a special patch once the user registers that loudly exclaims upon bootup registered to xxxxx address city state zip and disables the above two benefits encourages registration cuts down on pirating and makes it more traceable because if the patch s registration message is encrypted it will be quite hard to change and therefore provides a stable trail of who allowed their copy out of their hands and thus violated their license agreement you take two copies with a different registration id compare them byte for byte and you know where they are located usually you will be able to find out what is what after that probably but the point is the company make the registration patch not you sure you can probably find another registerred user and compare notes but why it s not hindering you in any way unless you are just hacking problem about people who cut too much from quoting and what keeps me form registering as john doe from the company public domain yellow brick road tinseltown or something nothing but if you read my whole suggestion i m saying that you register via mail by mailing in your registration card then the company send you the patch which includes the info you put on the registration card kasey chang i m glad to see this idea come up because i ve had something similar in mind what if you had an authorization key that computed from the name and address data when the user registers you don t even need to send executable code just compute his her key and send him her instructions to enter in the appropriate place the following name joe doe address main street city anytown ca key ldslfoialsdkcdsngsikhsfd every user needs a unique key the executable can propagate as much as you like the author can respond to the registration by e mail post card whatever unauthorized users would have to put up with someone else s name showing up maybe on a main menu screen as well as a startup message authorized users can make as many copies as they like upgrade their machines whatever the main motivation here is guilt and irritation at seeing someone other than yourself as the registered owner
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete in article tekig pen tek com alany tekig pen tek com alan yelvington writes the battery goes dead primarily becaust the floor is cold the temperature combined with self discharge promotes sulfation which ruins the plates of the battery i strongly suspect that the only reason the battery doesn t go dead as quickly on a dirt surface is because cement tends to be quite cooler please explain how cement is able to maintain a lower average temperature than dirt sheesh
sci.electronics	re pin out for c in article skelly aw amiganet chi il us skelly amiganet chi il us sean kelly writes does anyone know the pin outs for the c eprom i have bought several of them none of which has come with the pin outs any info would be appreciated a good source of information for data of this type is the library in particular the library at a local college or technical school offering courses in electronics would have data books of this nature
sci.electronics	for sale omti st rll to scsi adapters i have omti scsi adapters for sale these make an st rll drive look like a scsi disk drive each adapter will support two rll drives i have used this model omti adapter with my amiga a and a c ltd scsi host adapter without problems i m selling these because i got them about the same time i decided to sell instead of expand my amiga so i have never even used them i can t guarantee they will work with every scsi host adapter they are essentially new in box i paid ea make me an offer regards todd little pecan enet dec com
sci.electronics	re cable tvi interference in article qf ainnll rave larc nasa gov watson nimbus larc nasa gov catherine watson writes i gave up after a year of letters and phone calls i got the impression the fcc was powerless and it was up to the cable company to correct the situation isn t there some formal action a citizen can take that requires the fcc to at least generate some paperwork robert withrow tel fax net witr rwwa com r w withrow associates railroad ave swampscott ma usa
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete in article apr mprgate mpr ca vanderby mprgate mpr ca david vanderbyl writes in article tekig pen tek com alany tekig pen tek com alan yelvington writes the battery goes dead primarily becaust the floor is cold the temperature combined with self discharge promotes sulfation which ruins the plates of the battery i strongly suspect that the only reason the battery doesn t go dead as quickly on a dirt surface is because cement tends to be quite cooler please explain how cement is able to maintain a lower average temperature than dirt sheesh it s not the temperature it s the karma you see dirt has good karma since it s all organic and full of living things but cement is all squared off and artificial looking and has lost its karma in the process being a karma sink it sucks all of the good karma out of the battery which is no longer able to keep a charge because wood is also good and organic putting a board between the battery and the cement will fix the problems the buddha nature is in the acid but it is also in the lead plate the novice asked the master whether the spongy lead had more of the karma or whether the solid lead had it the master handed the novice a v b battery terminals downward and thus the novice was enlightened scott
sci.electronics	re question on addressing in article skelly c amiganet chi il us skelly amiganet chi il us sean kelly writes i have a question about accessing certain addresses on a chip particulary a c eprom although i don t know that much about it as i understand it there s a pin on the chip that when voltage is applied kicks up the address the question is how do you determine how many bytes the address is incremented by for example if i have code i want to be accessed at and also at say how do i move the address pointer to those positions thanks for any info sean kelly sysop amizon bbs always looking for classic video games for the following systems atari atari colecovision atari intellivision vectrex judging by your sig you are trying to make some kind of game cartridge information of how to build an eeprom cartidge for the vectrex is available via anonymous ftp at csus edu since you ve chosen the c you are probably trying to make a multicart to do this simply load the game images into the eeprom at etc your eeprom burner software may allow this or you will have to assemble the images into one file yourself with suitable gaps wire up the cartridge with the lower address bits going to the game console and the high bits going to switches to choose between games to directly answer your question above the pin that kicks up the address is simply another address line for a concrete example with the c and k games images you would wire a a to the cartridge and a a to switches the switches would allow you to pick from the games on the eeprom
sci.electronics	re rams roms with ale latches for s in article qg sinnokf sheoak ucnv edu au jeff redgum ucnv edu au j pethybridge writes hello again i asked this a year ago but i am still looking i am getting sick of having to use a hc if you are just getting sick of the real estate used by the hct you could always use the approach i have seen one designer take he stuck the chip in the middle of the eprom socket under the eprom naturally you have to use an ic socket with the right dimensions but layout is really easy steven murray
sci.electronics	re question on addressing correction a little correction on my previous post about an hour ago please replace the term eeprom with the term eprom wherever it appears don t not why i added that extra e every time
sci.electronics	re help with phone wire which ones are tip ring in article apr husc harvard edu mlevin husc harvard edu michael levin wrote i just bought a little gizmo that is supposed to be installed in series with the tip or ring lines of the phone wire which ones are those suppose i am holding a regular phone wire such that the little plastic tooth on the little plastic square thing with the naked lead ends that you plug into the phone is facing down and away from me which of the wires that i see is the tip and which is the ring please reply to mlevin husc harvard edu mike levin assuming you are refering to standard pots or ground start lines if you are looking at loop start lines under idle conditions the ring conductor is the one with approximately to vdc with respect to ground while the tip conductor is at or very near ground potential be sure to reference the telco ground when taking your measurements if you are dealing with ground start lines under idle conditions the ring conductor will be the one with approximately to vdc while the tip conductor would look like it s floating you may see some potential from line capacitance it will bleed off over time remember to use the telco ground as your reference when making measurements caprice sport coupe
sci.electronics	luser hi i am looking for a very high speed d a converter at least bits and mhz for a research application a paper in the january issue of ieee solid state circuits mentions a gaas ghz bit dac anyone know where i can find such a thing even a somewhat slower si dac would do needless to say i have looked in all the conventional places vitesse motorola national etc etc any pointers would be appreciated seema varma
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article apr miavx acs muohio edu sjmadsen nextsrv cas muohio edu steve madsen writes backupable if restored to the same machine depends on the programmer don t use a disk drive characteristic if the user did an upgrade to the machine he she should reinstall all programs any way no document look up no disk wear and tear this is not a good idea i upgraded my motherboard last fall i would have been quite pissed at any software that would have forced me to reinstall simply because i changed motherboards opinion is understandable i assume you have a tape drive not all of us have about floppies around for backup you know any info in the bios is too volatile to use as a checksum are you going to require that a user re install all their software if they add mb of ram to their computer i did that a couple of weeks ago it s in the bios and if software had told me this isn t the machine you installed me on i would never have used that software again really bad idea ram is something you add all the time so no it s more like bios manufacturer and or processor type etc data cannot be used esp with these new flash rom bios machines with updates on a diskette on the other hand to make this less intrusive it could be disguised as please insert original disk xx as i need file yyyyyy for update it would be perfectly reasonable sort of i did not say that the originals would allow only one install the user s conscience should do that this is silly it s much easier to loan disks to a friend and let them do an install than to backup your copy already on disk and then give them that your scheme isn t going to stop anyone of course it is easier are you saying then the originals should allow only one install what is your point you know how many bytes you need to change in x wing to disable the quiz two yes two and don t ask me which ones they are do you know any assembly language at all all anyone needs to do if find the part of the code that does the quiz and insert a jmp instruction to just completely skip it not that difficult really and there is very little that commpanies can do to stop this type of thing using pklite or some similar utility would help but only if the resulting compressed exe were tagged as uncompressable i know x and x assembly quite well thank you i know exactly which two bytes need to be changed i have the code to do them too i just said don t ask me which ones i didn t say i don t know what that means such hacking can be easily discouraged by adding anti patching code which does a self check upon execution and refuse to load if crc does not match value stored encrypted of course in the program it could be claimed as a part of anti virus code and it would not be far from the truth what i believe the companies should do is implement the above plus a special patch once the user registers that loudly exclaims upon bootup registered to xxxxx address city state zip and disables the above this is by far the best idea you presented in your post making it plainly obvious who registered is going to stop casual pirates but the determined ones are just going to answer joe blow to the question of what s your name so this won t stop them in the long run did anyone read what i wrote that is not what i wrote or meant what i said was the program should have certain restriction such as the restrict to one machine until the program is registered with the manufacturer the manufacturer will then supply the then proven legitimate user with a patch that will disable the restriction and proudly proclaim the legal copy with the registered to xxx screen pirates are always going to win this fight they simply have more time to work on the software and figure out the protection scheme of course they will but that was not my point the purpose of copy protection is to discourage casual pirates oh can i have a copy of that sure here and the less sophisticated pirates let s look for all those calls to int h any one determined enough to break copy protection can and will succeed they can always backtrace the entire load sequence of the program the point of copy protection is to make such attempts take as long as possible while not intruding upon the uses or to minimize such intrusion of legitimate use pirates who see copy protection as a challenge love breaking them and no amount of copy protection will stop them but the rest of us will be stopped how many of these hardcore pirates are there compared to rest of us not that many kasey chang
sci.electronics	what exactly is an ibm slc processor could someone please tell me if the slc and slc processors ibm is putting in their thinkpad s and other pc s is a real with a math coprocessor or if it is really some kludge that should not be called a at all thanks eric eric w braeden der verstand war zwar praechtig ohio state university doch das nuetzte am ende nicht viel ebraeden magnus acs ohio state edu peter schilling grad
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete in article c x e nx athena cs uga edu mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes in article apr cronkite ocis temple edu camter astro ocis temple edu carter ames writes why does a lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored on a concrete floor i decided to bring the battery in from the lawn mower and the motorcycle from the unheated garage this year to preserve them and i just went to use them and noticed that not only do they not work but they act like the two terminals are shorted i asked a friend and he said that you should never do that cause it ruins them but he couldn t tell me why this topic was beaten to death a year or so ago the concrete is not the problem lead acid batteries often fail from disuse not being charged for a long time but there s no way the concrete floor could be the cause of the problem the concrete floor accelerates the problem because it is a heat sink and a colder lead acid battery self discharges at a slightly faster rate that s why the old wives tale of sitting it on a piece of wood on the floor works to help keep from killing the battery as fast it insulates the battery thermally it you ll set the battery down on a piece of styrofoam it will self discharge even slower the best thing would be to attach a small load such as a small transistor radio with the volume turned down low and leave it on constantly but also trickle charge it every couple days too to shallow cycle the charge in the battery such mild exercising of a lead acid battery is the next best thing to completely removing the electrolyte for storage if you do remove the electrolyte may sure you keep separate storage containers for each cell s electrolyte and put it back into the same cells when you refill the battery this isn t so critical for a brand new battery in a fully charged state but will maximize the restored output of an older battery which may not be fully charged when you remove the electrolyte for storage neal howard xlh dod computrac inc richardson tx doh o neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer my opinions are mine not computrac s let us learn to dream gentlemen and then perhaps we shall learn the truth august kekule
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete camter astro ocis temple edu carter ames writes i was just wondering one thing actually two i hope that this is the proper place to post this subject why does a lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored on a concrete floor i decided to bring the battery in from the lawn mower and the motorcycle from the unheated garage this year to preserve them and i just went to use them and noticed that not only do they not work but they act like the two terminals are shorted i asked a friend and he said that you should never do that cause it ruins them but he couldn t tell me why i don t see any way that the concrete floor could do anything to the battery however you would have been better off leaving them outside keeping them cold would have been better for them than bringing them inside a warm battery will self discharge faster than a cold one when you are storing a battery it s a good idea to charge it once a month letting a battery go completely dead is bad for it i suspect this is what caused your problems robert wiegand motorola inc wiegand rtsg mot com disclamer i didn t do it i was somewhere else at the time
sci.electronics	need help finding parts ok i posted this b but blue wave qwk v
sci.electronics	self destructing copy protection on vhs tape hi folks i borrowed a vhs tape from a friend and it has a warning in the begining saying that attempts to copy the tape will result in destroying the copy and the original i found this unbelievable as playing and recording are two different processes however i ve never seen this tape being sold anywhere so i don t want to take the chance even it s small anyone has experience in this kind of self destructing video tapes thanks in advance ka lun pang a k a andy lost between frequency and time on the unit circle email klp doe carleton ca dod
sci.electronics	d g h type amplifiers hey can someone clue me in on these and other weird types of amplifiers just a brief intro to the concepts behind these would be cool i have the clues on type a b and ab already and stuff but these other ones are mentioned occasionally and i dont know what they do i think type d is like a pwm scheme or something thanx in advanced mark my andrew cmu edu
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article apr miavx acs muohio edu sjmadsen nextsrv cas muohio edu steve madsen writes do you know any assembly language at all all anyone needs to do if find the part of the code that does the quiz and insert a jmp instruction to just completely skip it not that difficult really and there is very little that commpanies can do to stop this type of thing using pklite or some similar utility would help but only if the resulting compressed exe were tagged as uncompressable and even that doesn t help there are at least two programs available that fixes this unp and dislite both available from simtel and even without them it isn t that hard to fix
sci.electronics	re food deydrators article of sci electronics newsgroups sci electronics path news nd edu spool mu edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech asuvax ennews mcdphx schuch from schuch phx mcd mot com john schuch subject food dehydrators message id apr phx mcd mot com sender news phx mcd mot com nntp posting host bopper phx mcd mot com organization motorola computer group tempe az distribution usa date mon apr est lines does anybody out there have one of those food dehydrators i ve been seeing all over late night tv recently i was wondering if they use forced air heat or both if there s heat involved anybody know what temperature they run at my wife would like one and i m not inclined to pay for a box a fan and a heater seems to me you should be able to throw a dehydrator together for just a few bucks heck the technology is only what years old john try mother earth news feb march pg build a food dryer john
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected nothing but if you read my whole suggestion i m saying that you register via mail by mailing in your registration card then the company send you the patch which includes the info you put on the registration card the problem with this scheme is that when i buy a game i want to play it that day mailing a card to and from california would probably take a week or more jmiller terra colostate edu jeff miller terra lab systems admin
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete neal cmptrc lonestar org neal howard writes the concrete floor accelerates the problem because it is a heat sink and a colder lead acid battery self discharges at a slightly faster rate that s why the old wives tale of sitting it on a piece of wood on the floor works to help keep from killing the battery as fast it insulates the battery thermally it you ll set the battery down on a piece of styrofoam it will self discharge even slower there are a number of inaccuracies here in fact a colder battery will self discharge more slowly this is why batteries should be stored in a cool dry place an battery placed on concrete does not become colder than one placed on wood the battery the wood and the concrete will all be at the same general temperature ignoring temperature fluctuations and thus none will effect the other the best thing would be to attach a small load such as a small transistor radio with the volume turned down low and leave it on constantly but also trickle charge it every couple days too to shallow cycle the charge in the battery such mild exercising of a lead acid battery is the next best thing to completely removing the electrolyte for storage there is no need to exercise the battery just keep it charged a trickle charger will do the job stuff deleted
sci.electronics	help need p would anyone have a few extra p s lying around that i could buy off of them problem is that around here i can only perchase them in quantities and i don t need this and can t take this financially right now if anyone can accomodate me with this please reply to both for the following mailing addresses thanks baden de bari baden sys bison mb ca o o baden inqmind bison mb ca true life can only be experianced by those who do not fear death
sci.electronics	re atari processors i m a hacker from the old days let s see how much trouble i can get into by telling you what you want to know eric weaver sony avtc river oaks pkwy ms sj ca chief engineer kfjc foothill college los altos hills ca
sci.electronics	cellular antennas i need to get some info a s a p about the cellular antenna market out there right now who are the main companies making them how much do they cost what are the specs such as gain directivity etc and who is the contact person because a group of us here are at the univ of il are researching into this technology i will personally mail you a copy of our entire busineess plan and paper if you can be of any help e mail me at erini enterprise ifp uiuc edu
sci.electronics	cellular antennas i need to know about the market for cellular antenna technology today who are the main companies in the market how much are they selling them for who are the contact people what are the specs i will mail oyou our reserach so far if youcan help us erini ifp uiuc edu
sci.electronics	audio electronic parts esp in los angeles i m working on an audio mixer project but i m having trouble finding parts i want to use op amps for the gain control stages the ones i have found that are good for audio are lm and lm but i cannot find either of these in the electronic parts places i ve looked are there any good substitute op amps and or are there any parts suppliers in the la area that carry this kind of thing kohm dual audio taper slider pots would be nice too any info would be appreciated thanks in advance martin lin triumvir cco caltech edu
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected noeler xanth cs orst edu eric richard noel writes discussion on piracy deleted off deeper end why does everyone think they need to be able to make a backup copy almost all new software must be installed to the hard disk so you are left with the originals as your backups i think its a waste of time space and money as well as it makes it to tempting to lend out the backups my own practice with new software make a copy of the original floppies to a second set of floppies install to hard drive from second set of floppies put originals in a box in room number one put copies in box in room number two accidents do happen to original floppies accidents can happen to the installation floppy sometimes software goes out on floppies that are just marginally good or gets too close to a magnet in shipping or storage i ve had experience with something like the last i purchased a compiler from a reputable vendor the debugger in the package just would not install to the hard drive no way repeated floppy to floppy copies finally got a clean read of the disk i don t recall if i used diskcopy copy b or xcopy i made a second copy of the marginal floppy and installed from that no problenms except with my typing since i regard backup floppies as cheap insurance just my side of the question bob
sci.electronics	re los angeles freeway traffic reports in article c slmb w cup hp com dclaar cup hp com doug claar writes while driving through the middle of nowhere i picked up knbr am a clear channel station based in los angeles knx am in la will be unhappy to hear about this i m sure isn t knbr in the bay area jamie hanrahan kernel mode systems san diego ca internet jeh cmkrnl com uucp uunet cmkrnl jeh cis
sci.electronics	re blue led s in article zw f b w w inqmind bison mb ca baden inqmind bison mb ca baden de bari writes so what s the story here we re all stuck with the regular green red and off yellow orange led s what gives anybody have a scoop on fairly low priced blue led s in order to emit blue light a semiconductor must have a band gap energy within the region of to electron volts according to my physical electronics prof you can t get an led with that band gap that s why you don t find blue leds or for that matter some other colour of leds that is not to say that blue leds can t be found i ve seen blue leds sold but they were just your typical visible light led in a blue plastic covering they didn t emit very much light source solid state electronic devices ben g streetman d ed prentice hall right planet wrong universe douglas adams if we took the bones out it wouldn t be crunchy mr whizzo
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected i wrote a commercial program called game maker can you guess what it does what we do is have a document protect answer question on page x line y which is a real pain we also allow the user to register by sending in a card and computing a based on their name the system works in that we ve gotten lots of registration cards i hear that the program has been cracked though someone two people actually called up my support one with a question the other wanting to buy our graphics libraries right anyway if anyone wants to help me catch a cracker and has the cracked version mail me i won t accuse you unless you re the cracker of course andy stone stonea suned cs yale edu andy stone stonea suned cs yale edu
sci.electronics	re blue led s in c yqde cq ecf toronto edu gladman ecf toronto edu gladman aviv writes in article zw f b w w inqmind bison mb ca baden inqmind bison mb ca baden de bari writes so what s the story here we re all stuck with the regular green red and off yellow orange led s what gives anybody have a scoop on fairly low priced blue led s in order to emit blue light a semiconductor must have a band gap energy within the region of to electron volts according to my physical electronics prof you can t get an led with that band gap that s why you he s mistaken they exist the semiconductor is silicon carbide and they are inefficient and expensive the bandgap is around ev don t find blue leds or for that matter some other colour of leds that is not to say that blue leds can t be found i ve seen blue leds sold but they were just your typical visible light led in a blue plastic covering they didn t emit very much light the ones i have are clear plastic pray tell what would make a typical led emit blue light david josephson davidj rahul net
sci.electronics	how to drive an array of leds i have a project in mind that requires an array of leds that can be addressed individually by a microprocessor say x or so is there an lsi that is designed to drive an led array including ram to hold the array state or failing that some way of multiplexing the display so i don t have to latch a bit for each led using a discrete latch i want to avoid having a huge board covered with s if possible thanks in advance phil torre ptorre u washington edu
sci.electronics	re ir detector cards radio shack stores sell them here in the states not sure if intertan is carrying these for australia or not cost is usd you charge them under a fluorescent then they glow when exposed to ir paul opitz radio shack publications
sci.electronics	looking for toshiba ta specs i m looking for some specs for a toshiba ta bp it appears to be a power amp housed in a pin inline package and is used in my mitsubishi vcr circa as a dc motor controller for the tape drive checking in the oldest ic master i have i don t see it listed and it appears to have been discontinued if anyone has anything on this part i d be greatly indebted thanks in advance aaron
sci.electronics	re power signal surges in home clewis ferret ocunix on ca chris lewis writes in article r jmoinn mb rave larc nasa gov kludge grissom larc nasa gov sc in article drand apr spinner osf org drand spinner osf org doug in article randall woof randall informix com randall rhea wri hams can legally run up to watts it is very unlikely however that a ham would be running that kind of power from a car ham rigs not possible either you d need about a amp alternator for just the amplifier i can just see it you need to slow down on a downgrade so you hit the push to talk button now that indeed is possible a good friend of mine is running about kw pep from his car yes he does have a second alternator yes he calls the rig an electronic brake since the engine noticeably slows when the key is down it has been a while since i knew the electronics of ham radio but i seem to remember that pep is actually x the real power which makes kw pep actually around w or was it x i disremember effective transmitted power is also odd in that it takes into account antenna height and geometry which is why a tv station with a kw klystron might advertise a megawatt if their antenna is on the top of the cn tower this is like sears hp though real watts still isn t impossible about a with a v alternator less if the alternator produces higher voltages it s only three horsepower taking into account inefficiencies you ll feel it when you hit the key but not too much chris lewis clewis ferret ocunix on ca phone canada psroff info psroff request ferret ocunix on ca ferret list ferret request ferret ocunix on ca it sorta depends on what you drive i remember running a two channel motorola with a vibrator power supply and about tubes in a volkwagen the poor little v generator had a heck of a time and if you keyed the mic at night you needed to be stationary because your lights got awful dim isn t progress wonderful emd ham almanac bc ca robert smits ladysmith bc
sci.electronics	cleaning electronic equipment hi just a quick question what standard lab solvents can be used to clean electronic equipment and components safely ie not corrode dissolve short out etc the equipment water methanol ccl etc i am not an electronics type surprise surprise and i want to avoid using freons thanks adrian
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article r sbinnkap flop engr orst edu noeler xanth cs orst edu eric richard noel writes i strongly disagree i think most pirating is done by amateurs who won t copy the program if diskcopy can t do it i hate to disagree but i will note i don t pirate software nor do i trade it i simply have met and talked extensively with those who have that s it the fbi can tap someone else s phone most pirating is done by people who don t use the programs they pirate a cracked program tends to get passed on resplendant in the various graphics and animations that advertise whoever performed the modification s i admit that a large portion of the business world is involved in giving copies of programs to one s fellow workers maybe taking it home for use on one s own pc but such trading tends to be interdepartmental or at most spread throughout the business as a whole how many times have you had someone walking from business to business letting people copy disks it s mostly a matter of convenience a person sees a program they want to use and they feel justified in making a copy since someone s already paid for it etc etc a note this is starting to change a bit not much though if you re talking a max goal of pirated copies i bet that anything that will beat diskcopy and can t be easily copied from a hard drive will suffice what about commercially available copy programs copyii how about programs like teledisk that can do things diskcopy can t and before anyone disputes this because they feel that those who would copy wouldn t know about this after working with people around computers one comes to realize that the average user doesn t know much any computer enthusiast is at least x better at pre guessing commands and how to use them can you sit down and use something without reading the manual and it is these people who are doing the pirating not joe windows user who can t remember a few arguments to the dir command i hate hard copy manuals and would rather have all docs online not because i want to copy the program but because its usually faster and and convenient than sifting through an old book i can t find really i find it evens out the online stuff can be read through faster but you re stuck reading it in linear flow start to finish unless you jump ahead with a search or such a book though you can flip through faster than you can read text on a screen and they usually have a nifty index too but i partially agree i often wish i could grep something that was written down off deeper end why does everyone think they need to be able to make a backup copy almost all new software must be installed to the hard disk so you are left with the originals as your backups i think its a waste of time space and money as well as it makes it to tempting to lend out the backups what if they need to re install the idea of a backup still holds if the original disk goes bad they re out of luck for about weeks which is the usual turn around time for a company to send a new set of disks if they ll do it without a charge edward w jajko the nekomancer ejajko hertz elee calpoly edu mein fuhrer i can walk doctor strangelove
sci.electronics	re long distance ir detection in article cstrockb apr csws cs sunysb edu cstrockb cs sunysb edu caleb strockbine writes could make for some interesting choreography light and sound could be controlled directly by the position of a dancer on stage or by the number of dancers on stage neat you could even build a spotlight that follows the dancer around on stage can you tell us more about what you re doing sounds like a very cool program tis only a gleam in my eye at this point i have yet to chose a tracking method the initial requirement was to design a system to locate a dancer in one of eight zones across the stage i did some experiments with pyroelectric detectors and found them difficult to align to get a definite zone transition and dancers stand still alot so their ir signature goes away the good thing about pryoelectrics is that their signal is proportional to the size of the warm body or body part and the velocity of said body this could be useful for detecting the intensity of a dance gesture dancers also really hate to wear little boxes and batteries strapped on their bodies but they really need to be emitting some kind of signal to be tracked the current toy i have been working with is a program called mandala for the amiga used with a live video digitizer this works with a video camera trained on the stage you can set thresholds for a zone within the field of view and an object brighter than the threshold will trigger an event events can be midi objects or sequences amiga sounds or graphic objects it s been fun to play with but the documentaion is arcane and the digitizer is noisy still it s very appealing the dancers don t have to wear any appliances you can have ots of zone s it speaks midi which can be used to control lights and i don t have to build any electronics it s all done with lighting and video brightness and contrast adjustments i have yet to do anything particularly useful or artistic but i have hopes
sci.electronics	re need help with video detection circuit verity jack sns com steve verity writes i am trying to build a circuit that detects the presence of video vs a blank screen by monitoring the r g and b outputs of a graphics card it should be able to detect the presence of a single pixel at mhz which would mean detecting a ns pulse it should also be able to tell the difference between a blank screen about mv and a dim screen say around mv oh yes it also needs to be cheap in fact the difference between completely black and completely white is only mv i am wondering if i am going to have to amplify the video signals to make this work try a differential amplifier put back to back diodes between the collectors restrict the voltage swing have ma flow with ohm collector rs and keep the stray c below pf try n s run collector to your logic allen sullivan
sci.electronics	re blue led s in article c yqde cq ecf toronto edu gladman ecf toronto edu gladman aviv writes in order to emit blue light a semiconductor must have a band gap energy within the region of to electron volts according to my physical electronics prof you can t get an led with that band gap that s why you don t find blue leds or for that matter some other colour of leds that is not to say that blue leds can t be found i ve seen blue leds sold but they were just your typical visible light led in a blue plastic covering they didn t emit very much light um your professor if just plain wrong although blue leds are one heck of a lot less efficient than red ones typical visible light leds don t really exist leds have a fairly narrow region of transmittence since the fermi energy around either side of the band gap falls off exponentially blah blah source solid state electronic devices ben g streetman d ed prentice hall you might want to check the copyright date on that blue leds most certainly do exist i ve got a bunch at work cree research makes them probably along with other companies cree is big in materials science though they advertise in the stuff like physics today etc you can buy them from jameco i think digikey definitely and plenty of other distributors actually these days you can get a typical visible light led it s called a rainbow led and i ve forgotten who makes it they advertise in edn and many of the other trade rags though it combines a reg green and blue led all on one chip and has four leads nifty device although it s probably fairly expensive joel kolstad
sci.electronics	re long distance ir detection sburton dres dnd ca stan burton writes i would like to be able to detect the angular position low accuracy of an ir emitting source at a distance of about meters more is better in daylight the ir source could be emitting a signature i m leaning toward khz square wave with duty cycle i designed and built hardware in that would output a logic level from a tone detector upon detecting a microwatt led feet away used a motorola mrd biased linearly in a dc feedback loop to servo out variations in sunlight and hz from lights used no lenses allen sullivan
sci.electronics	re power signal surges in home though real watts still isn t impossible about a with a v alternator less if the alternator produces higher voltages anyone claiming that real watts isn t possible in a mobile should dig through their back issues of and i think qst for a description of the mobile installation of that most revered of oms w am as i recall this included a heath kw dc in amp what was that model number sb something my mind is turning to the usual friday mush and was run full out cw fairly regulary the car s electrical system had been modified including a rather seriously heavy duty alternator but such an installation has been done and so is possible this installation was the source of the legendary story of w am sitting in the car and paging his wife over the department store pa systems bob myers kc ew hewlett packard co opinions expressed here are not systems technology div those of my employer or any other myers fc hp com fort collins colorado sentient life form on this planet
sci.electronics	re wd as moisture repellant was lead acid batteries concrete please explain how cement is able to maintain a lower average temperature than dirt sheesh i hope david isn t going to be too upset with me for sticking my nose in here again but here goes it isn t the average temperature that is the key factor here but rather which is better at transferring the heat out of the presumably warmer than ground temperature battery call it a question of thermal conductivity or of insulating ability or thermal mass whatever you like question why does a concrete floor feel cooler than the surrounding dirt when you place your hand on it bob myers kc ew hewlett packard co opinions expressed here are not systems technology div those of my employer or any other myers fc hp com fort collins colorado sentient life form on this planet
sci.electronics	re switching ps questions anyways i ve built the basic up down converters with pretty good results efficiency but i m running into problems when i try to design build anything that puts out serious amps i know it can be done i have some v a guts on my bench but something puzzles me i m using a simple choke as the storage element basicly a toroid with a single winding but all commercial models use transformers with many windings i traced a few and they seem to use some of the winding for the usual error feedback but some of the others seem to loose me what are they for better than that anyone have a full schematic for one of these that i could get a copy of i d love to see how they manage to squeeze out so much from such low volume most commercial switchers do not use magnetics for their energy storage that s handled by the big caps on the primary side those which in a linearly regulated power supply would be considered the filter caps coming right after the bridge the transformer is just that a transformer it s there primarily to step the voltage up or down although the inductance seen by the switch transistor on the primary side is not negligible as anyone who s zapped said transistor from either failing to get one with a high enough breakdown voltage or neglecting to include a snubber diode across it would tell you actually many transistors intended for switcher use today have the diode built in the basic switched mode power supply operates something like this in a somewhat simplified manner the ac line is rectified to produce a high voltage more or less unregulated dc rail the energy storage or filter caps appear across this rail as does the switching transistor the transistor chops the current into the primary side of the transformer resulting in stepped up or stepped down pulses out the secondary which are then rectified and filtered at least one of the transformer s outputs is sampled and fed back to the control circuit for the switching transistor which acts in a pulse width modulation pwm fashion to control by varying the pulse width the amount of energy being dumped into the primary and therefore the voltage coming out at the secondary the remaining outputs may be allowed to simply run at whatever value they will more or less tracking the regulated output or they may have some additional linear regulation added you may also note that the feedback between the regulated output and the pwm control which is most typically an ic is not done via a direct electrical connection this is due to various safety standards which require primary and secondary circuits to be electrically isolated often the feedback path involves an optoisolator to meet this requirement while the transformer isn t the primary energy storage device in these designs this does not mean that the energy stored in the transformer can be ignored besides the inductive kick giving the switch transistor a bad time as noted above you also need to worry about getting all the energy that went in to the transformer back out again one way or another in some designs this happens more or less automatically but in others you need to take special care to ensure that the transformer core doesn t saturate which again would have disastrous results best left to the imagination i m not by any stretch of the imagination a power supply designer hopefully a real one will come along soon and clean up any gross errors in the above bob myers kc ew hewlett packard co opinions expressed here are not systems technology div those of my employer or any other myers fc hp com fort collins colorado sentient life form on this planet
sci.electronics	does any one know what is biggest rom for present please replay yxy usl edu thanks a lot
sci.electronics	help need thermal specs for mc fe i m doing some work on the mac iisi and need some information on the cpu i have the motorola mc um ad rev but i fear it is out of date as it does not have the characteristics for the cpu package type used in the iisi what i need is the theta jc thermal characteristic the junction to case thermal resistance for the plastic fe style package if you have this info i would appreciate your sending it by email as postings suffer a few days delay here if you are keen on this stuff i am also interested in a more accurate value for the typical power dissipation i m assuming watts using the w maximum at c decreased the way the pd drops in the x as ta increases if your manual has a chart of power dissipation i d like to know what it reads at c and c thanks for reading james macphail jmacphai cue bc ca on bounce try james mirg phy queensu ca
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete in article apr cronkite ocis temple edu camter astro ocis temple edu carter ames writes i was just wondering one thing actually two i hope that this is the proper place to post this subject why does a lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored on a concrete floor i decided to bring the battery in from the lawn mower and the motorcycle from the unheated garage this year to preserve them and i just went to use them and noticed that not only do they not work but they act like the two terminals are shorted i asked a friend and he said that you should never do that cause it ruins them but he couldn t tell me why it s not the concrete floor that does it the problem is that lead acid cells self discharge over time even high quality cells gates for instance will discharge over a month period of time non sealed cells self discharge even faster if the battery was not completly charged when left sitting it probably discharged past the the point where cell sulfiding occurs which in many cases means a ruined battery datalog consulting tucson az ejm datalog com noao datalog com ejm
sci.electronics	voice synth chips does anyone know where i can get some voice synthesis chips i am looking for something like the ones that do the time and date stamp on answering machines
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries concrete why does a lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored on a concrete floor when will people learn the trouble is the ballast in the concrete and as every fool knows ballast resistors are used to discharge batteries furthermore it is very silly to store the battery with the terminals downwards as you must have done to contact the ballast seriously self discharge the actual problem as stated by others does vary greatly with certain types and freaks show low self discharge i have in fact seen ordinary automotive batteries which have effectively held full charge for years so it must be possible if your garage is heated store the batteries somewhere cooler but above freezing flat batteries freeze more easily occasionally charge it once a month or even leave it on float charge permanently special charger don t do this unless you know what you are doing seriously dangerous anouther point is the unsuitability of automotive batteries for things like electric mowers they are not generally designed to be repeatedly deep discharged and their life may be greatly shorted some early zero maintenance automotive batteries in fact responded to a full discharge with total failure shortly afterwards but modern ones are superb yrs miles and counting tc e mail tchannon black demon co uk or tchannon cix compulink co uk
sci.electronics	re uart needed really break detect in article tau ceti isc br com jimc tau ceti isc br com jim cathey wrote in article alan alan apple com alan mimms writes actually detecting a break is done by watching for a character containing all zero bits with the framing error resulting from its receipt this true enough but means that the line stayed in the zero bit state even past the stop bit time slot which basically indicates a break there is no special way to detect break that i have found other than this there s no magic signal generated by uarts etc zilog scc rr break detect this is a very popular part but it has a number of quirks especially in hdlc mode signetics duscc rsr break start detect rsr break end detect two of the bits in the receiver status register you can enable an interrupt on either of these bits going high too also only one null will be put in the fifo per break detected this is simply the best serial chip i ve ever worked with many less quirks than the scc which is imho second best death to devices and i thought i knew a lot about serial devices perhaps i should just keep my big mouth shut sorry alan mimms alan apple com apple alan my opinions are generally portable macintosh software group pretty worthless but apple computer they are my own art without engineering is dreaming engineering without art is calculating steven k roberts in computing across america
sci.electronics	re analog switches balanced demodulators msf skaro as arizona edu michael fulbright writes i am trying to build a synchronous demodulator and i ve hit a snag in my application i want to be able to change the gain of an op amp amplifier from to controlable via a digital input the most obvious way i ve come up with is to use analog switches to adjust the gain of the op amp the only analog switch i have experience with it the unfortunately i want to switch an ac signal which goes from about v to v and the is only for positive signals i have recently used the to switch a bipolar signal i simply ran the off a bipolar supply v in this case as long as your analog input signal stays between the supply rails the will work fine of course your control logic input must use v as the logic low and v as the logic high reference so that either all your driving logic must be cmos with the same bipolar supply or you must provide some kind of voltage level shifting circuit between the and the control logic in my case i was able to use the bipolar supply all the way carlos puig kj st cpuig infoserv com san jose ca
sci.electronics	flash leds with sound i m looking for a circuit that will flash an led on in response to the output from a walkman cassette player how could i do this i don t want it just to turn on i want it to strobe once so to speak per every beep i put on a cassette tape would it be better to use a circuit based on the volume of the beeps on the cassette or better for the leds to respond to a tone of a certain frequency is there any easy way to do either of these i m looking for the simplest circuit possible i guess what i m asking for is some sort of color organ but not quite let me trt to explain again i m going to have a pattern of beats or beeps on a cassette tape so on the tape you d hear beep pause beep pause beep pause etc with speed increasing as time goes on i want to synchronize an led probably two of them with the beeps on the cassette tape so the led with each beep would go on and off real quick generating a strobe light sort of effect the rapidity of the beeps on the tape would in turn effect the rapidity of the blinking of the leds and if there was no sound on the tape except for background his the leds would remain off please help thanks dana
sci.electronics	re blue led s in article zw f b w w inqmind bison mb ca baden de bari baden inqmind bison mb ca writes anybody have a scoop on fairly low priced blue led s hosfelt t stock t both vf nm mcd ma mfg liton call disclaimer dont know these guys from a bar of soap but the price looks reasonable
sci.electronics	re luser in article apr sol ctr columbia edu seema madvlsi columbia edu seema varma writes hi i am looking for a very high speed d a converter at least bits and mhz for a research application a paper in the january issue of ieee solid state circuits mentions a gaas ghz bit dac anyone know where i can find such a thing even a somewhat slower si dac would do needless to say i have looked in all the conventional places vitesse motorola national etc etc any pointers would be appreciated think video brooktree sells a whole line of dacs that can be used normally for graphics applications in either or ohm systems for example the bt can be had in speeds up to about mhz bt to mhz and mhz with the bt seema varma rick spanbauer suny stony brook
sci.electronics	re laser vs bubblejet in article snx black demon co uk tchannon black demon co uk writes there is one wild difference between the two printers a laserprinter is a page printer whilst an inkjet is a line printer this means that a laserprinter can rotate graphic images whilst an inkjet cannot few drivers actually use this facility there is also the matter of downloadable fonts and so on tc e mail tchannon black demon co uk or tchannon cix compulink co uk i have a deskjet and i thought i d give a little info the deskjet will do landscape mode like the hp laserjets i can t say if other inkjets do though also the deskjet can do downloadable fonts only if you buy a softfont memory cart for it oh you said the laserjet can rotate a graphic image hmmmmm the deskjet can only rotate text nevermind
sci.electronics	blinking leds where can i buy blinking leds besides radio shack does anyone sell blinking leds with variable flash rate by voltage i guess if so what hertz pulse rate are they adjustable or set to i d like blinking leds that can be set for approx hz hz hz or hz something like that i m interested in what s out there for flash rates i like the idea of leds with flasher circuits already in them i hate soldering ics in general guess i don t have a hell of a lot of patience thanks dana
sci.electronics	how do you build neural networks subject says it all though i should specify that i m looking for solutions that don t require me purchasing specific chips etc in other words is there some sort of neural network circuit i could build after a visit to a local r shack matthew david moss blessed are the pure in heart for they internet mmoss ic sunysb edu will see god bitnet mmoss sbccmail matthew
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected i think a few things are being missed overall here first of all anyone with a dos manual can copy a disk or copy anything hidden files dont go far if you are dealing with anyone who is not comletely dos ignorant off of a hard disk professional crackers aren t interested in copying disks they are programmers who get some thrill out of going through unassembly listings of programs to disable copy protection such as serial number dialog boxes volume label checks and who knows what when it comes to computer games those people are in the minority however in my experience with the world of people and software it seems that a good majority of people say will at some point copy a friend s program gee you really oughta try this or accept a copy these are people who normally would buy a software package or do without but decided that just once it wouldn t matter the last thing is people who own or are responsible for more than one computer most people aren t going to spend x of computers for the same software package they will just install it x of times especially things like dos upgrades are we having fun yet
sci.electronics	multiple inputs for pc can anyone offer a suggestion on a problem i am having i have several boards whose sole purpose is to decode dtmf tones and send the resultant in ascii to a pc these boards run on the serial interface i need to run of the boards somwehat simultaneously i need to be able to ho ok them up to a pc the problem is how do i hook up serial devices to one pc inexpensivley so that all can send data simulataneously or close to it any help would be greatly appreciated abhin singla
sci.electronics	re multiple inputs for pc in article u uicvm uic edu u uicvm uic edu writes can anyone offer a suggestion on a problem i am having i have several boards whose sole purpose is to decode dtmf tones and send the resultant in ascii to a pc these boards run on the serial interface i need to run of the boards somwehat simultaneously i need to be able to ho ok them up to a pc the problem is how do i hook up serial devices to one pc inexpensivley so that all can send data simulataneously or close to it any help would be greatly appreciated are the boards at all intelligent i e run by microcontrollers the easiest thing would be to have another line that says that one of the boards is talking to the pc when this line was true the other boards could all hold off and not send their data this isn t a perfect solution though since you have to worry a little about making sure two boards don t decide to talk at the exact same time other than that i think you will need to hook up each board to something that speaks rs this actually isn t as hard or as expensive as it used to be though assuming the boards talk relatively slowly bps or slower the pics can coordinate things between themselves to multiplex the data this is really just forbicly adding the suggestion in the first paragraph to your system and it assumes that each board doesn t talk more than th of the time of for very long since a pic isn t going to be able to buffer more than maybe some bytes you might want to check into the prices of multi serial card for your pc though i recently bought a boca research x card parallel ports rs ports for a very reasonable joel kolstad
sci.electronics	re self destructing copy protection on vhs tape in article klp quark klp doe carleton ca ka lun pang writes i borrowed a vhs tape from a friend and it has a warning in the begining saying that attempts to copy the tape will result in destroying the copy and the original i found this unbelievable as playing and recording are two different processes however i ve never seen this tape being sold anywhere so i don t want to take the chance even it s small anyone has experience in this kind of self destructing video tapes i have always thought that if i wanted to send the police a tape with a ransom demand on it or send cnn a video tape to see if they wanted to buy it i would place a small magnet near the take up spool so the tape would be erased as it was played who would think to check john
sci.electronics	bit a d converter once upon a time long long ago in this news group someone posted a schematic for a bit a d converter well i just found a use for the little monster anyone out there still got this text file it had a flip flop a resistor and a cap and a comparator op amp i think i would be extremely thankful to anyone who could mail me the schematic or post it to the news group o o beware the light at the end of the tunnel it may be an oncoming dragon m d c u mcorbin oucsace cs ohiou edu
sci.electronics	re blue led s in article c yqde cq ecf toronto edu gladman ecf toronto edu gladman aviv writes that s why you don t find blue leds or for that matter some other colour of leds that is not to say that blue leds can t be found i ve seen blue leds sold but they were just your typical visible light led in a blue plastic covering they didn t emit very much light sorry charlie i have a dozen very blue led s on my bench right now they have a clear plastic case and when lit are absolutely blue the hue is sort of a summer day cloudless sky blue but make no mistake they are blue you can buy them from digikey circuit specialist jameco i think led tronics stanley optoelectronics and others the current price is around each for small quantities i will also be selling them through my mail order company in the near future weeks write for details if interested john
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected hmmm a possibility for the software registration conondrum would be to have the distributor register the copy when the software was sold the clerk sticks it in the store pc and asks for the buyers id later if pirated versions showed up they could be tracked to the original purchaser in addition copies which were sent to distributors stores would have a vendor reg or serial in order to track in store piracy possible additional program security schemes would be having monthly password changes which necessitate user call in and registration inconvenient taking dire legal action on anyone caught expensive encryption crc check self modifying code limited effectiveness have an independent watchdog program in the installation setup config or memory manager etc which would check the main program s crc only as effective as above methods at best have the above watchdog circulating as a virus which would trash cracked copies of the program and or the offenders hard drive risky and probably illegal certainly immoral my new ideas aren t terribly feasible to implement as presented but i thought if i threw them out people could think of variations that might be effective what is the problem with parallel port security keys i haven t used anything that had hardware key copy protection schemes so i don t know what the drawbacks are i know the companies that make them claim they re uncrackable but i ve seen cracks of autodesk d studio floating around i don t have one so don t ask and i had heard that it had parralel port keys vamilliron othello ucd edu my apologies if i rambled but vi inhibits my communication skills greatly
sci.electronics	re laser vs bubblejet inkjet and bubblejet printers are the same tech bubblejet was trademarked by cannon and inkjet was by hp i belive i have seen both and own a bubblejet a apple stylewriter which has a cannon engine with a dpi rated output the output is very good with quality paper which is very importaint cheap paper gives bad results i use sealed paper and the only differenc is that the ink is less dark than toner i compaire to the apple personal laserwriter ntx but then again the difference is to so david a smith i like to skate on the other side of the ice dasmith suntan ec usf edu i didn t do it and i don t know anything smithd eggo csee usf edu either usf better not know i m here
sci.electronics	re flash leds with sound in article aa kepler unh edu dmn kepler unh edu there s a seeker born every minute writes i m looking for a circuit that will flash an led on in response to the output from a walkman cassette player how could i do this i don t want it just to turn on i want it to strobe once so to speak per every beep i put on a cassette tape would it be better to use a circuit based on the volume of the beeps on the cassette or better for the leds to respond to a tone of a certain frequency is there any easy way to do either of these i m looking for the simplest circuit possible i guess what i m asking for is some sort of color organ but not quite let me trt to explain again i m going to have a pattern of beats or beeps on a cassette tape so on the tape you d hear beep pause beep pause beep pause etc with speed increasing as time goes on i want to synchronize an led probably two of them with the beeps on the cassette tape so the led with each beep would go on and off real quick generating a strobe light sort of effect the rapidity of the beeps on the tape would in turn effect the rapidity of the blinking of the leds and if there was no sound on the tape except for background his the leds would remain off please help thanks dana try looking in a magizine called radio electronics may issue page there is a circuit for a midi light controller there andy andy belville it s taken me a long time but i ve belvilad dunx ocs drexel edu fallen in love with a beautiful woman
sci.electronics	re rams roms with ale latches for s in article qg sinnokf sheoak ucnv edu au jeff redgum ucnv edu au j pethybridge writes hello again i asked this a year ago but i am still looking i am getting sick of having to use a hc i didn t catch your posting one year ago but i presume you like to leave out an extra a latch i presume you allready know there is a but that couldnt be the question could it during my student trainee project i discouvered a nice device it s a psd from waferscale integration in one single plcc i think it was package it contained rom ram i o lines and a programmable addressdecoder as far as i can recall it can be hooked directly with a mcs series up neat huh but it needs programming before assembly so it wasn t suitable for my project perhaps usefull for you future plans greetings
sci.electronics	re self destructing copy protection on vhs tape klp doe carleton ca ka lun pang writes hi folks i borrowed a vhs tape from a friend and it has a warning in the begining sayi that attempts to copy the tape will result in destroying the copy and the original i found this unbelievable as playing and recording are two differen processes however i ve never seen this tape being sold anywhere so i don t want to take the chance even it s small anyone has experience in this kind of self destructing video tapes thanks in advance ka lun pang a k a andy lost between frequency and time on the unit circ email klp doe carleton ca dod to put it bluntly they are full of it paying a tape is playing a tape there is no difference whether the output goes to a second vcr or to a tv how the vcr or tv reacts to this signal is a different story see messages pertaining to macrovision copy protection in order for the tape to self destruct it would have to have circuitry of its own within the tape case the circuit would have to somehow magically determine what the output of the vcr is connected to the circuit would then have to have an erasing head to actually do anything it is a pretty lame scare tactic i ve seen something similar on a bbs when the sysop wanted to he could have a message sent to the user s end saying that it is sending the code to format your hd victor inqmind bison mb ca the inquiring mind bbs winnipeg manitoba
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article c dvh fan ucdavis edu ez othello ucdavis edu victoria milliron says a possibility for the software registration conondrum would be to have the distributor register the copy when the software was sold the clerk sticks it that s kind of extra work that one cannot expect the store people to do imho it would be easier if companies sell their software as cheaply as possible and to sell the customers detail manuals for the brain deads quick reference books how to do books and videos paid support hot line for the registered purchasers these can be part of their package i have seen many books to teach people how to use dos wp and other software i i suspect either users can t read the manuals or they don t have manuals either way there is to be made btw books are quite a bit more expensive to reproduce than a disk what is the problem with parallel port security keys i haven t used anything that had hardware key copy protection schemes so i don t know what the drawbacks are i know the companies that make them claim they re uncrackable with the popularity of multitasking and pseudo multitasking systems eg os windoze mack system it is pretty easy to run a debugger and figure out the protection schemes by disassembling tracing trapping the application during run time schemes like compressed software special loaders would be easy pray even to beginner hackers hardware keys unless well designed and totally transparent is a pain in the b t we having using a piece of software under windoze that uses a hardware key the key interfers with the printer stuff with other programs and often has to be unplugged for those software to work properly but i ve seen cracks of autodesk d studio floating around i don t have one so don t ask and i had heard that it had parralel port keys all the hacker has to do is to remove modify code that communicate with the port vamilliron othello ucd edu my apologies if i rambled but vi inhibits my communication skills greatly k c lee elec eng grad student os windoze mack are not trademarked
sci.electronics	needed v watt fan can someone tell me where to find volt watt ma fans that fit the standard computer mounting size ie and inch wide and inches diagonal from hole to hole hole where bolt or screw goes through i have found higher noisy fans that are v watt but i need a quite fan i can use volt as well but found just about all volt fans to be noisy i also find that the v fans are not only quieter but the blade shape has a lot to do with it i have a dead fan that was quiet in it s day it has long blades like fan blades in a tturbo engine on a jet is the only way i can describe it the dead fan is etri model lh actually it s not dead it just makes a hideous rattle noise so it s stealthy qualities are void thanks
sci.electronics	proposal alt fan tesla for discussion of nikolai tesla who else russ nelson sun soe clarkson edu businesses persuade governments force
sci.electronics	pc board layout help hi i have a few questions about laying out a pcb i am using easytrax for dos which is a great program but what my question is when laying out traces what thickness should they be i am mainly designing low voltage low current boards for micro controller apps what should pad sizes be for resistors i will be turning to a commercial pcb maker to produce s of these boards and i was wondering what is the minimum distance traces should be from each other well any info would be great thanks anton
sci.electronics	re pink noise pink noise and white noise are equal amounts of all frequencies this is in most cases around the k hz range pink white are used to adjust for room dynamics and stuff like that there are a few eq s out on the market that have pink noise built in most all from audio control have them i know the c does
sci.electronics	re hi volt from battery in article c ufig dv news cso uiuc edu martyj mrcnext cso uiuc edu martin johnson writes i need a small battery powered hi voltage capacitive discharge supply to deliver joules at volts the ubiquitous camera flash circuit is what i want but i cant get mine apart without breaking it charlie brett s suggestion buy one of the disposable flash cameras use the film then take the thing apart is a good one note though that you won t get a particularly precise voltage out of such a thing and it may be a single point design that won t adapt well to off nominal operation the things are easy to dismantle the key piece of information is that when you advance the film on one of them you are winding it into the film cassette it is unwound from the cassette in the factory when the camera is made so no darkroom is needed for dismantling it s standard film so just take the cassette in for processing all the camera store people do when you bring in one of the disposables is rip it apart toss the film cassette into the to be processed bin and throw the battery in one trashcan and the rest of the camera in another if you take it apart yourself you get an aa alkaline battery still with a fair bit of life in it and all kinds of little bits and pieces from the camera i expect you could even re load and re use the camera if you were really determined svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.electronics	lead acid batteries part i thought the first thread was hilarious so here goes another post some more background information on what has happened to my poor batteries one year i left the batteries in the garage the garage is unheated they were left in their places that they needed to be one in the riding lawnmower what a lux and one in each motorcycle the battery in the riding lawnmower was about years old and one of the cycle batteries was new and one was around years old upon spring time i discovered that all of the batteries were dead and needed to be recharged they all worked properly except for the older ones and they had to be replaced about halfway through the summer they had originally been stored in the garage and i think i remember my dad charging them in spring last year i decided to bring them in to the basement which has two parts one is dirt and brick and the other is concrete i brought in all three and discovered in the spring about days ago that not only were the batteries dead but when i put the charger on them the charger said hmmmmmmmm and the amp meter read around in other words it was pinned the internal circut tripped and i went on to the other batteries they were the same realizing that we still had gigantic sailboat batteries also lead acid i decided to put the charger on them these had been sitting for around and a half years on the brick and dirt part and noticed that they only needed a small charge around hours or so on trickle i tested them by using them at the local gas station for giving jump starts and they worked fine for around of em this leads me to believe one of several things i bought really tty batteries last year sorta true the concrete has something to do with the discharge of the batteries there was enough moisture to short out the terminals in the room where the concrete is the dirt room was able to absorb the moisture in the air better than concrete btw i can almost waterski in the dirt room any other ideas could be the aliens anything is possible
sci.electronics	re wd as moisture repellant was lead acid batteries concrete in article hpfcso fc hp com myers hpfcso fc hp com bob myers writes it isn t the average temperature that is the key factor here but rather which is better at transferring the heat out of the presumably warmer than ground temperature battery uh bob why is the battery warmer than ground temperature on the time scales in question and with the considerably reduced temperature swings several feet underground there isn t going to be any major temperature difference between the battery and what it s sitting on question why does a concrete floor feel cooler than the surrounding dirt when you place your hand on it because the temperature of your hand unlike that of the battery is determined by the balance between internal heat production and external heat loss you re feeling the greater rate of heat loss from an object your hand which is kept much warmer than its surroundings in the case of an object with no significant internal heat production this will affect how quickly it comes into equilibrium with its surroundings if it started out not in equilibrium with them but won t affect the final temperature for the same reason windchill affects whether you will freeze but not whether water will freeze svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article c x a h ms uky edu msunde mik uky edu mark underwood writes in article r sbinnkap flop engr orst edu noeler xanth cs orst edu eric richard noel writes i hate hard copy manuals and would rather have all docs online not because i want to copy the program but because its usually faster and and convenient than sifting through an old book i can t find just mho but i prefer hardcopy books because you can have three or four of them open spread across the bed next to the desk in my dorm and reference them while using the program full screen the windows help things come closest to good on line documentation i ve seen but they generally aren t detailed enough and would probably take a large amount of space even compressed which is at a premium on my system in fact the manuals are the primary reason i bought borland s c compiler instead of using the one the lab licensed in the lab of course i ve got a shelf full of books to help me out when i m stuck to each his own it is also much easier to scribble corrections on a hard copy manual jeff white jhwhit ulkyvx louisville edu
sci.electronics	circuit list locations here is a list i get when i was combing through some microfilm one day here at drexel while completely board most of these circuits are pretty easy to constuct and can be done by a novice this is basically some stuff that could prove useful to you without having to sit down and either design or buy the stuff not a good word but i m tired right now hope you enjoy if you have any additions send them to me and i ll add them to the list they don t have to be from this particular magazine they just have to be interesting radio electronics year month page article name and or discription april car audio amplifier watts may midi light controller light control from music input solid state relay digital altimeter june electronic thermostat february audio sweep marker generator frequency response april line power from volts vdc vac watts june electronic compass august speaker protector sept solid state tesla coil oct vocal effects mixer nov music on hold play music for someone who is on hold on the phone dec thd analizer battery tool electronic fuse jan acoustic field generator phone activated audio muting circuit feb frequency probe radar detector tester march universal laboratory power supply april morse rtty detector capacitance adaptor capacitance add on for a dmm solid state wiper control may universal descrambler for a tv july digital dashboard for a car august digital pressure gauge sept vocal stripper take the vocals away from music oct rocket altimeter model rockets dec benchtop frequency counter jan carrier current audio transmitter audio through your house s wiring plasma display globe advanced control system feb carrier current receiver march hi fi audio amp for house or car high power may i r extender extender for infra red remotes july light beam communication digital capacitance meter nov r c decade box digital compass dec programmable phasor property guard july l c meter part august l c meter part nov electronic combonation lock sept stun gun june click and pop filter for your stereo removes clicks and pops when you play old lps from what i could see you can order the circuit kits finished or unfinished or you can order the parts that you can t get through a normal store andy belville it s taken me a long time but i ve belvilad dunx ocs drexel edu fallen in love with a beautiful woman
sci.electronics	re how do you build neural networks mmoss ic sunysb edu matthew d moss writes in other words is there some sort of neural network circuit i could build after a visit to a local r shack marvin minsky hi there writes of building perceptrons in the s using motor driven potentiometers to vary the weights he reported that the circuits worked even tho there were wiring errors can you say robust cadium sulfide cells vary with light cmos or ttl gates provide the sigmoid somewhat linear yet somewhat limiter transfer function often used low power schottky gates and earlier gates has about a gain of x leds probably output enough light to easily control cds cells even at a few ma and paper with dark and light regions controlled by pencil and eraser could also control cds resistance the very high input resistance of cmos gates may let you charge up uf paper mylar caps to serve as memory allen sullivan
sci.electronics	re flash leds with sound in article aa kepler unh edu dmn kepler unh edu there s a seeker born every minute writes would it be better to use a circuit based on the volume of the beeps on the cassette or better for the leds to respond to a tone of a certain frequency is there any easy way to do either of these i m looking for the simplest circuit possible i guess what i m asking for is some sort of color organ but not quite let me trt to explain again look for information about tone decoder chip it is an easy to use chip for detecting sound of certain frequency you need only one and some other componets for each led you want to control the chip can take the voltage levels which the casette gives radio shack archer semiconductor reference guide gives good information how to use that chip it should be simplest way to go the chip costs something like tomi engdahl hut fi lowery s law then niksula hut fi if it jams force it if it breaks it needed replacing anyway this text is provided as is without any express or implied warranty
sci.electronics	silver solder i have seen the existance of electronics solder with a silver content that seems to have good wetting and fatique reatings can anyone tell me why it is not used silver is not such an expensive metal andy anwar y shiekh i do not feel obliged to believe that the international centre for same god who has endowed us with sense theoretical physics reason and intellect has intended us to trieste italy forgo their use shiekh itsictp bitnet galileo galilei
sci.electronics	study as audio control engineer in the u s a hi folks out there i don t know whether i am in the right newsgroup but i have a question if i am completely wrong here in this group could you mail me the right name of the correct newsgroup a friend of mine is studying electronics at the technical university in karlsruhe germany since one year he wants to know whether there are possibilities to study audio control engineering in the u s a does anybody know how to get information about these studies in the u s a could you send me information like e mail adresses of the universities quality of these studies and so on is it possible to e mail the universities directly to get information do the universities send information via e mail please could you answer via e mail because i don t read this newsgroup regularly thanks in advance stephan jaeger this space for rent contact stephan jaeger rheinstr d karlsruhe stephan jaeger ka sub org
sci.electronics	re microstepping you can try sgs l a it can achieve current level microstep teere is a circuit in the sgs thomson smart power applicatio manual order code for the manual is amsmartpowerst best regards moi siew hong email shmoi hpmalr mal hp com hewlett packard malaysia bayan lepas free trade zone tel fax penang malaysia
sci.electronics	re wd as moisture repellant was lead acid batteries c in sasrer cinnamon sasrer unx sas com writes services we offered was an engine cleaning remove all that oil before you sell the car unfortunately we did not have a high pressure washer so we would use one several miles from the shop on more than one occasion after washing the engine it would not start as water would have gotten under the distributor i would put a plastic bag around it to try and minimize this around the spark plug wires etc and it would be nearly impossible to try and wipe all these areas down with a dry rag the usual solution was to carry a can of wd and when the car wouldn t start to spray all the likely areas and it would then start on the very first time this definately gets the car going but wd is highly flammable explosive even in the right conditions like a vapour sealed inside a distributor for eg and contact points tend to arc a tiny bit i once saw the alternator points cover blow completely off a motorcycle after it had been restored to life with wd fun to watch it was a honda mr minibike and the cover is only held on by large rubber grommet so it wasn t really a big blast graham b ps as a more serious aside it is apparently also conductive so it is best to exercise caution with it around mains wiring
sci.electronics	development tools for could someone point me toward a source ftp bbs whatever for development tools for the microprocessor i specifically am looking for a macintosh cross assembler disassembler also is there a mailing list dedicated to discussing the thanks james speth email for pgp compatible public key speth cats ucsc edu
sci.electronics	re subliminal message flashing on tv lihan ccwf cc utexas edu bruce g bostwick writes well yes and no the image can t be on the screen less than of a second but a mixture of images that s about of the field that was supposed to be there and of the subliminal addition could be overlaid for one field producing the same overall effect to our sluggish retinae of a discrete image projected for second this is a s idea supposedly splicing in a frame of buy popcorn upped popcorn sales in a movie theatre big flap at the time congress involved talk of making it illegal general agreement by networks not to do it a few years ago some junior person at an advertising agency re invented subliminal projection and one commercial went out on tape with single frame messages it aired on a few stations but a tech at one station previewing the tape noticed a flicker and looked at the tape frame by frame to find the defect big flap fcc notified commercial pulled press reports embarassed ad agency you could probably find the press reports via dialog or nexis if you wanted now that everybody has vcrs it s not likely that anybody could get away with this on tv john nagle
sci.electronics	development tools for c in article ree inndmp darkstar ucsc edu speth cats ucsc edu james gustave writes could someone point me toward a source ftp bbs whatever for development tools for the microprocessor i specifically am looking for a macintosh cross assembler disassembler also is there a mailing list dedicated to discussing the thanks james speth email for pgp compatible public key speth cats ucsc edu i have the same question for any tools for the derivative processor the c processor designed by western design center thanks oscar oscar r mitchell ibm advanced workstations and systems division risc system tm future systems hardware architecture and design group mail stop zip burnet road austin texas usa phone ibm tieline usa fax ibm vnet oscar at ausvm ibm internet oscar oscar austin ibm com usa internet oscar austin ibm com include standard disclaimer i do not speak for ibm only for myself ibm corporation advanced workstations and systems division risc system tm future systems hardware architecture and design group usa internet oscar austin ibm com
sci.electronics	re pink noise in article t tw n juts ccc amdahl com dws p hdb cd amdahl com david sharpe writes pink noise and white noise are equal amounts of all frequencies this is in most cases around the k hz range pink white are used to adjust for room dynamics and stuff like that there are a few eq s out on the market that have pink noise built in most all from audio control have them i know the c does wrong wrong completely wrong and a little misleading too white noise is random noise whose energy density is constant for a constant bandwidth that is a hz wide band at hz will have precisely the same amount of energy as a hz band at khz pink noise is random noise whose energy density is constant for a constant precentage bandwidth thus a wide band of noise at hz whose bandwidth is hz will contain the same energy as a wide band at khz whose bandwidth is hz wide white noise is often used with spectrum analyzers that have constant bandwidths pink noise is used with audio type real time analyzers whose bandwidths are centert frequency dependent often described as octave or octave or some such terminology white noise relative to pink noise has more energy at high frequencies at a rate equal to db per octave pink noise relative to white noise has more energy at low frequencies at a rate equl to again db octave dick pierce loudspeaker and software consulting sartelle street pepperell ma voice and fax
sci.electronics	asynchronous receiver recommendations i am looking for a suitable uart for a project what i require is a stand alone device i e not cpu controlled which will receive baud rs also a nice extra would be a received data buffer please reply with any info you have thanks chad d hubich university of regina dept of computer science
sci.electronics	re self destructing copy protection on vhs tape klp doe carleton ca ka lun pang writes hi folks i borrowed a vhs tape from a friend and it has a warning in the begining sayi that attempts to copy the tape will result in destroying the copy and the original i found this unbelievable as playing and recording are two differen processes however i ve never seen this tape being sold anywhere so i don t want to take the chance even it s small greetings there are types of warnings on us tapes a hologram is glued across the seam of the halves of the tape the message usually reads if seal is broken you must buy this tape the standard macrovision warning copies of this tape will be unviewable your case extended message for the average consumer tm which states that even attempting to copy the tape will destroy the original i don t believe you can sue them for misinformation in cases like this take care p s of course is utter bs but the average consumer tm believes it heck my mom once returned such a tape without watching it she was afraid that something might just happen filip i ll buy a vowel gieszczykiewicz best e mail fmgst pitt edu all ideas are mine but they can be yours for only so respond now i live for my ee major winsurfing programming sca and assorted dreams mb drive linux has mb and ms dos has mb ms dos is worried
sci.electronics	re cable tvi interference in article apr rwwa com witr rwwa com robert withrow writes in article qf ainnll rave larc nasa gov watson nimbus larc nasa gov catherine watson writes i gave up after a year of letters and phone calls i got the impression the fcc was powerless and it was up to the cable company to correct the situation isn t there some formal action a citizen can take that requires the fcc to at least generate some paperwork robert withrow tel fax net witr rwwa com r w withrow associates railroad ave swampscott ma usa for those who are interested the fcc does indeed care about cable leakage particularly into the aviation nav band or leakage that is causing interference to other services part details specific limits to acceptable leakage and measurement technique if you will clearly document your problem and measurement technique a signal level meter with dipole is the normal approach remember to correct between measurement data and microvolts per meter and fax or mail the details to mr john wong cable branch fcc m st nw wash dc and a copy of your letter to the local cable company you will get results in fact the cable company will probably start treating you much better when they realize you have figured out how to get the fccs attention what is important is to document your case as it relates to the applicable rules however the cable company is required to at least check out every complaint of leakage they must file with the commission and maintain on premises a yearly measurement report that details the results of leakage testing but remember call the cable company first and give them a chance to work to correct the problem before contacting the commission i am in the business of measuring cable system leakage via the airborne method scottcr wkuvx bitnet aka chris scott telco
sci.electronics	re subliminal message flashing on tv in article hpfcso fc hp com myers hpfcso fc hp com bob myers writes hi i was doing research on subliminal suggestion for a psychology paper and i read that one researcher flashed hidden messages on the tv screen at ths of a second is that possible might even be a vector strokewriter display in which case the lower limit on image time is anyone s guess and is probably phosphor persistence limited back in high school i worked as a lab assistant for a bunch of experimental psychologists at bell labs when they were doing visual perception and memory experiments they used vector type displays with millisecond refresh rates common so your case of th sec is quite practical and the experimenters were probably sure that it was milliseconds not or either bob myers kc ew myers fc hp com steve steve tell tell cs unc edu h l estes park apts unc chapel hill computer science w carrboro nc engineering is a lot like art some circuits are like lyric poems some are like army manuals and some are like the hitchhiker s guide to the galaxy
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected this has been an interesting thread to follow and obviously this group wasn t intended as a forum for the discussion of piracy has anyone seen any estimates of the lost revenue due to pirates i was wondering if piracy is more rampant in home or corporate computing environments i would tend to think that business environment piracy is the major contributor to this form of lost revenue so many companies will purchase a few copies of a software package and then employees will internally distribute them as if they owned a site license what do you guys think
sci.electronics	re blue led s in article c yqde cq ecf toronto edu gladman ecf toronto edu gladman aviv writes that s why you don t find blue leds or for that matter some other colour of leds that is not to say that blue leds can t be found i ve seen blue leds sold but they were just your typical visible light led in a blue plastic covering no the blue leds sold down the street are in milky white plastic and fyi putting a filter on a typical visible light led presumably meaning a non blue one won t produce blue light a filter can only block light it can t generate wavelengths that aren t there to start with jamie hanrahan kernel mode systems san diego ca internet jeh cmkrnl com uucp uunet cmkrnl jeh cis
sci.electronics	re self destructing copy protection on vhs tape schuch phx mcd mot com john schuch writes i have always thought that if i wanted to send the police a tape with a ransom demand on it or send cnn a video tape to see if they wanted to buy it i would place a small magnet near the take up spool so the tape would be erased as it was played who would think to check that is an exceptionally cool idea would it work how strong a field is needed anyone pat fegmania wustl edu c c revely nancy sinatra christmas carols a kind of stereo hell chris buery abc news
sci.electronics	re bit a d converter in article apr oucsace cs ohiou edu mcorbin oucsace cs ohiou edu max corbin writes once upon a time long long ago in this news group someone posted a schematic for a bit a d converter well i just found a use for the little monster anyone out there still got this text file it had a flip flop a resistor and a cap and a comparator op amp i think i would be extremely thankful to anyone who could mail me the schematic or post it to the news group hmmm how about a piece of copper wire to v input range standard ttl output instantaneous conversion time for the humor impaired mark a haun internet haunma wwc edu sittner hall amateur radio kj pc college place wa
sci.electronics	re wd as moisture repellant was lead acid batteries c in article apr lugb latrobe edu au matgbb lure latrobe edu au byrnes graham writes in sasrer cinnamon sasrer unx sas com writes services we offered was an engine cleaning remove all that oil before you sell the car unfortunately we did not have a high pressure this definately gets the car going but wd is highly flammable explosive even in the right conditions like a vapour sealed inside a distributor for eg and contact points tend to arc a tiny bit i once saw the alternator points cover blow completely off a motorcycle after it had been restored to life with wd fun to watch it was a honda mr minibike and the cover is only held on by large rubber grommet so it wasn t really a big blast graham b ps as a more serious aside it is apparently also conductive so it is best to exercise caution with it around mains wiring i some years ago almost became a victim of this squirted a fair amount in an old model teletype which was acting up then turned it on the eruption when the motor starting contacts broke was mighty spectacular i almost got my eyebrows singed the plastic old ones had safety glass cover over the platen etc flew across the room and several people in the room almost had heart attacks beware the explosive properties of wd vapor john h schmidt p e internet schmidt auvax adelphi edu technical director wbau phone days adelphi university evenings garden city new york fax
sci.electronics	re subliminal message flashing on tv in article naglec e dse netcom com nagle netcom com john nagle writes lihan ccwf cc utexas edu bruce g bostwick writes well yes and no the image can t be on the screen less than of a second but a mixture of images that s about of the field that was supposed to be there and of the subliminal addition could be overlaid for one field producing the same overall effect to our sluggish retinae of a discrete image projected for second this is a s idea supposedly splicing in a frame of buy popcorn upped popcorn sales in a movie theatre big flap at the time congress involved talk of making it illegal general agreement by networks not to do it more than talk from the fcc rules subliminal perception a see public notice fcc dated january fcc d fr january b see fcc information bulletin subliminal projection sic at least in my rules service copy of the rules dated november since i don t have either old copies of the federal register or the information bulletin around i can t tell you what you can t do on tv or radio but i seem to remember this being an unnecisarily hot subject in the late s practically speaking i dont have too much trouble seeing the one frame edits in mtv promos badly scratched or torn single frames in films and such but maby that s just because the contrast between the single frame and the surrounding material was significant i never believed in the one frame type of sp being real on the other hand the coca cola or brand insert desired name here beer cans conveniently placed so the brand name is visible in the movie you just watched that s another story and if your tv station or network was paid by the beer company for the privilege of doing that there has to be a promotional consideration paid by or similar message included with the program but if the tv station bought the movie already edited that way from the film company and didn t get any of the payment for brand visibility that the film company got then they don t have to run the message a few years ago some junior person at an advertising agency re invented subliminal projection and one commercial went out on tape with single frame messages it aired on a few stations but a tech at one station previewing the tape noticed a flicker and looked at the tape frame by frame to find the defect big flap fcc notified commercial pulled press reports embarassed ad agency you could probably find the press reports via dialog or nexis if you wanted now that everybody has vcrs it s not likely that anybody could get away with this on tv john nagle john h schmidt p e internet schmidt auvax adelphi edu technical director wbau phone days adelphi university evenings garden city new york fax
sci.electronics	p programmer having vainly looked for devices capable of dealing to the nec p dsp chip which dont require taking out a mortgage i decided to roll my own not a difficult task for an given that all the timing relationships are set out in the databook one thing bothers me that is the accursed ms volt vpp pulse sure a little buck step up converter can achieve this in what is otherwise an all volt widget but i know latterday eproms dont need nearly this pulse length q has anyone come up with a more efficient programming algorithm which is failsafe cheers mike
sci.electronics	re power signal surges in home wb foz skybridge scl cwru edu david lesher writes why do all postings from bnr seem to have bogus addresses both gstovall crchh nosubdomain nodomain and gstovall bnr com bounce this makes it rather difficult to reply they go through uunet this is often the problem as uunet often has problems with return paths deleted oh and most importantly no amount of transmitted rf short of a transmitter the size of small house is likely to cause the equipment failures you describe so you are looking at two different problems yep bill
sci.electronics	descrambling channels i live up in british columbia canada the cable company i use is called rogers cable does anyone know of their scrambling techniques and ways of getting around them any suggestions of what they might use sean oliver internet address a mindlink bc ca mindlink bbs
sci.electronics	re pink noise in article t tw n juts ccc amdahl com dws p hdb cd amdahl com david sharpe writes pink noise and white noise are equal amounts of all frequencies this is in most cases around the k hz range pink white are used to adjust for room dynamics and stuff like that there are a few eq s out on the market that have pink noise built in most all from audio control have them i know the c does with regards to what you wrote how does one adjust for room dynamics and stuff like that i asked a professor that question just last week and he didn t really know himself since pink noise is believed to be due to surface states say the surface of the silicon where there s a lack of a covalent bond that act as traps to nearby elecrons and since this happens at low frequencies because at high frequencies they aren t able to trap electrons how do you compensate for that it seems to me that you wouldn t be able to compensate for pink noise i have seen the pink noise feature however on many eqs and i was wondering how they are suppose to compensate for noise when pink noise is not due to man made noise like power lines crosstalks coupling etc if you have any information about this it would be appreciated hope this didn t sound too drawn out thanx david shorty helios nevada edu
sci.electronics	re development tools for c in article c x xol austin ibm com oscar oscar austin ibm com oscar r mitchell writes request for wdc c mac cross development stuff apple themselves sells a cross developer for the macintosh called mpw iigs it s intended for use with the apple iigs computer which uses the oscar r mitchell ian schmidt two meg software irsman iastate edu aol com i will choose a path that s author of audiozap modzap and more clear i will choose free will co author of soundconvert and desktracker n peart coder and musician for the gs irc
sci.electronics	removing battery corrosion is there a readily available solvent that does a good job at removing the corrosion encrustation that collects on the battery terminals usually the cathode when using alkaline batteries or more accurately when not using them for a long time
sci.electronics	how to get rid of flyback whine i recently took apart my color sony tv to clean the volume pushbuttons and when i put the beast back together the flyback whine got much louder is this easy to fix which part is resonating i have heard rumors of a spray that will fix the noise is this a simple thing for a tv repairman to fix thanks scott
sci.electronics	re atari processors in article r e l c sunb ocs mq edu au ifarqhar laurel ocs mq edu au ian farquhar writes in article apr das harvard edu squish endor uucp shishin yamada writes the atari used a cpu just like their entire bit line xe xe computers as well as the game machine wrong it has a sorry ian i haven t toyed with it in several years i haven t seen the insides in quite a few years i just saw the post lagging for quite a few days and thought i d toss in my i assume the was functionally similar to the was it also made by mos technologies i really am more versed in the based atari computers the came later on the had some extra asic chips that were basically modified graphics chips and pia s for the joysticks it had one custome chip not an asic in the sense that word is now understood the tia sometimes known as the although most other manufacturers list that as the cia complex interface adapter tia stands for television interface adapter and it handles sound paddles and the minimal video hardware the possessed in the atari computers the cia chip you refer to sounds an awful lot like the ctia color television interface adapter chip used in the early models later atari upgraded this to the gtia graphics other colorful literature stated that the gtia might have stood for george the developer of the chip there was also a standard ram i o timer riot plus a voltage regulator and if memory serves a timer that s all later model might have incorporated many of the chips into one asci as the weight of the machines and part count decreased a lot over the years not according to the servicing documentation i have here the did not change intenally very much at all funny i had an old and new model the old one was significantly heavier additionally i think the used k k and up to k of rom for their games roms were mapped into the upper k of the s address space k and k games were fine but later k and k games needed bank switching atari and others made much of these huge cartridges i have no idea how much ram it had to work with but i would hazard a guess of or k ram sorry i am way out of line here my first microcontroller i built was a mc based chipset with bytes onboard that was not easy to work with in addtion to a small k on board eprom wrong it had bytes of ram from the riot this was multiply mapped into both page pseudo registers and page stack and also throughout the bottom k of memory tia registers also sat in this address space as bytes of ram was somewhat limiting some later cartridges also carried ram themselves which was interesting as atari had provided no write line to the cart this was managed by mapping the reads from ram into one address range and the writes into another but all the time this scheme ate into the very scarce rom address space ian
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article c dvh fan ucdavis edu ez othello ucdavis edu victoria milliron writes from ez othello ucdavis edu victoria milliron subject re how to the disks copy protected date sat apr gmt hmmm what is the problem with parallel port security keys i haven t used anything that had hardware key copy protection schemes so i don t know what the drawbacks are i know the companies that make them claim they re uncrackable but i ve seen cracks of autodesk d studio floating around i don t have one so don t ask and i had heard that it had parralel port keys if you put another computer on the port instead of the key you can hack them by reading what happens so i ve been told i ve never seen this done but i think it s possible you d need some hardware knowledge and some software to read the port vamilliron othello ucd edu my apologies if i rambled but vi inhibits my communication skills greatly guido klemans internet rcstage urc tue nl valid until may listen very carefully i will say this only once michelle of the resitance
sci.electronics	re power signal surges in home dplatt ntg com dave platt writes what kind of power must he be putting out to cause the effects the affected equipment is about feet from the road might be a couple of hundred watts from the sound of it kicking sound out of the tv and stereo speakers by direct rf rectification requires a mighty strong carrier i ve heard of linears so powerful that triggering them while the car was idling would stall the engine by pulling down the battery voltage it would take a lot more than that it sounds like the radio equipment is actually not shut completely off but just goes to a standby situation i suspect that the stories are just that stories the voltage can only be sucked down so far instantaneously when you try to jumpstart someones car when your vehicle is at idle does your car stall no the other car just does not crank well now the engine might stall because the idle was too low to start with when the extra current is drawn the idle speed will drop as the alternator loads down the engine to compensate for the increased amperage requirement is resolution of this problem a matter for the power company the fcc or both ultimately it s likely to be your problem to resolve i m afraid the fcc is so understaffed that they don t pay much attention to citizen complains about rfi or so i ve heard they ll just send you a pamphlet describing how you can apply corrective measures talking to the power company might help they might be able to install filtering devices at your service panel or recommend a type which you could have installed by a licensed electrician a transmitter is not going to be affecting house power if surges are occurring there it is due to another cause not a transmitter unfortunately there s a fair chance that enough signal is being picked up by your house wiring that a simple service panel filter won t suffice you may need to install heavy duty rfi filters at the power connections of your affected equipment it is probably not that much of a problem often toroid coils on the power leads will solve that part of the interference problem it will not solve internal equipment deficiencies if the problem occurs regularly you may need to stake out the street in question and watch for trucks or cars with big antennae driving by at the time interference occurs if you can identify the vehicle which is transmitting you may be able to contact its owner and complain it is probably not the transmitter that is at fault if the person is an amateur then he she will probably be willing to help if you explain that the person is causing interference bill
sci.electronics	re power signal surges in home drand spinner osf org douglas s rand writes hams can legally run up to watts it is very unlikely however that a ham would be running that kind of power from a car ham rigs not possible either you d need about a amp alternator for just the amplifier i can just see it you need to slow down on a downgrade so you hit the push to talk button well amps anyway transmissions are generally for a short interval the battery would supply the rest of course if you transmitted too much you would run the battery down it really would not be that much of a brake even at efficiency watts would only consume horsepower bill
sci.electronics	how universal are phones these days i m wondering if i can tote my american touch tone phone around with me to sweden and germany it s dc powered and i can buy a special adapter for that in europe the question is if the general electronics work the same i can buy a different wall plug and refit it i m sure i d have to but would that do the trick thanks hugo
sci.electronics	re power signal surges in home brian ucsd edu brian kantor writes while it s possible that it s a ham radio transmitter that you re hearing it isn t likely every bit of signal that doesn t go out the antenna is wasted as far as a ham is concerned and most hams are it is the radiated signal that would cause the problem technically competent to ensure that they don t waste any signal if they can possibly avoid it to get their ham license they had to pass a government exam that tests them on that point among others however you could be hearing a radio transmitter for sure there are lots of other services where the operators aren t required to be technically competent citizens band cb for example there is nothing in the amateur radio tests that requires an technical competence at all it is a simple matter to memorize all the questions and answers however that said most hams that i know do spend quite a bit of time gaining some technical skill listen to the interference if you hear voices clearly it almost certainly isn t ham radio and might well be cb if you can record a don t count on that bit of it you could take the tape over to a local ham operator s house and ask him for his opinion of what you re hearing most communities you cannot do that legally however you can ask a ham over to listen if the interference occurs at a specific time each day then it would be possible to do such scheduling if nothing else you could invite the ham over to transmit from your driveway to see if he interferes if he does then you probably need to have your equipment worked on to make it immune to rf interference have a ham radio interference committee whose members are most willing to help you resolve interference complaints look in the phone book or ask at the local ham radio store or call the fcc for contact info the fcc may or may not have such information they have enough to do without getting calls for such information if nothing else call your city offices or police department general business number they should have the name of a local ham contact if it s a ham he s more than likely willing to help get rid of the problem after all it would be his signal he s wasting if it isn t the interference committee or the fcc may be able to suggest solutions see above your concept of wasted signal is erroneous if his rig is transmitting properly then the chance of interference with the exception of harmonic television interference is the greatest since he is putting out the strongest signal it is unfortunately the case that a transmitting station that is operating perfectly legally could possibly cause intereference to a piece of consumer audio or tv equipment just because the manufacturer of the consumer equipment cut corners on one little section of the device that wouldn t affect one person in a thousand but which bites you often that can be remedied for just a few pennies by a knowledgeable person perhaps even the person operating the transmitter you re hearing unfortunately most consumer equipment is succeptable it is all poorly designed btw hams are allowed amplifiers cb isn t illegal ham amplifier doesn t compute it does but not for a mobile radio there are very few mobile rigs that could power a watt amplifier bill
sci.electronics	re laser vs bubblejet just thought i would add to deskjet thread i got my first one in college about or so years ago i ve been a happy hp user of the deskwriter for macintosh for past years i got one just a few months after their release and i got software revision a now i m up to rev our family sister and father have each purchased their own dw s after seeing mine go for one year unscathed their stuck to their trusty imagewriter ii s the original dw has gone for years at moderate personal use i would say that it has gone through at least sheets and around one small ink cartridge every months or so my brother might take this dw now i m probably gonna give it to him and i am looking to upgrade to a color dw the chief advantages disadvantages i ve found over the years are advantages quick ppm quiet roomate can sleep while it s printing appletalk networkable unfortunately the original wasn t so look out if you buy used i rewired our home with phonenet appletalk connectors and while home we can all use my dad s one dw and cheap now run btw you can upgrade older dw s to color or for appletalk i dunno if hp still does the upgrades but i received many offers i just didn t ned it however also crisp laser quality output is a wonder used to really impress those imagewriter dot matrix people so much so that i had to charge per sheet to stop my college dorm neighbors from bothering me at all hours of the night disadvantages ink used to be hard to find and wasn t cheap and wasn t originally water proof while hp has done wonders with the ink i dunno if it s still toxic it is still subjet to smearing and running if you run around in the damp boston rain and get your bookbag completely soaked ink now runs about for small carts i get mine from elek tek in chicago i think they re now down to the ink carts used to say they re dated for only months but i don t think they say so anymore we stick to a month supply of about carts we use cheap hammerhill laser print paper after fooling for a long time laser xerox paper is also good smearing doesn t happen unless you have a brand new ink cart and you grab the paper and smudge it all over as soon as it comes out of the machine other disadvantages are no postscript this can be an advantage in speed usually ways around this are ghostscript or freedom of press software solutions i bet hp probably has a ps prototype inkjet but they won t release it for fear of hurting lj sales in the end the primary advantages of laser are true postscript unless you go for cheap lasers and fused toner no smearing even when soaking in water lasers are slightly sharper but the only instance where i needed precise layouts was printed circuit board transparencies for photoetching i found a textronix color phaser postscript thermal wax transfer to work the best to make pcb negatives directly onto a transparency well hope my babbling has helped squish endor harvard edu
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article rcstage urc tue nl rcstage urc tue nl guido klemans writes stuff about hardware keys if you put another computer on the port instead of the key you can hack them by reading what happens so i ve been told i ve never seen this done but i think it s possible you d need some hardware knowledge and some software to read the port true which is why many of the newer keys ship out oh maybe bits or so have the key encrypt them and return them to the pc making a bunch of these bits part of your program code is a good way to make sure things won t run without the key anyway then this scheme at least defeats your approach it s a little costly though personally i don t believe in copy protection and agree with the thought that the mass inconvenience that it causes all legal users far outweighs the gains from what few pirates won t be able to copy the program joel kolstad
sci.electronics	re help with phone wire which ones are tip ring in article apr husc harvard edu mlevin husc harvard edu michael levin writes i just bought a little gizmo that is supposed to be installed in series with the tip or ring lines of the phone wire which ones are those suppose i am holding a regular phone wire such that the little plastic tooth on the little plastic square thing with the naked lead ends that you plug into the phone is facing down and away from me which of the wires that i see is the tip and which is the ring please reply to mlevin husc harvard edu mike levin mike ring is the red wire tip is the green wire of most standard phone lines they two constitute the two wires most often used for voice telephone the two live lines they are the two innermost connectors of an rj phone jack another way of telling is that if you measure voltage from red to green ring to tip tip green being at ground potential of the voltmeter it should read volts in the on hook no ring position i am sure it s v and not volts doesn t hurt a phone too much if they re reversed it s just bad if one happens to somehow get grounded to earth ground elsewhere additionally when off hook the voltage drops to about to volts dc i think it is supposed to correspond to a to ma current loop and lastly when ringing the two wires develop an ac potential of about v p p at to hz across them where you get the electromechanical old fashioned bell ringer from hope that clears things squish endor harvard edu
sci.electronics	re blinking leds in article aa kepler unh edu dmn kepler unh edu there s a seeker born every minute writes where can i buy blinking leds besides radio shack does anyone sell blinking leds with variable flash rate by voltage i guess if so what hertz pulse rate are they adjustable or set to i d like blinking leds that can be set for approx hz hz hz or hz something like that i m interested in what s out there for flash rates i like the idea of leds with flasher circuits already in them i hate soldering ics in general guess i don t have a hell of a lot of patience thanks dana if you want slow led flash rates adjustable by switches or by a digitally controlled switch i suggest looking at a oscillator chip they cost at radio shack much cheaper in quantity at quality places and you will be able to find good info about simple circuits in a oscialltor notebook i think forest mims has one at radio shack you ll have to toy with resistor capacitor values or you can use your head with a little math to get the right frequencies any engineer worth his salt can make a osciallator it s in the book and left up to you to see i hate doing ascii circuit graphics the can accurately go from a few hz to about khz i think about the tape recorder gizmo you could alter a stereo tape deck to use one channel as a data line for flashing led and one as audio line for voice or music this would eliminate a lot of noise the data line is probably most easily done by some kind of pll or bandpass filter using just an op amp the chip is a good pll and not hard to work with however if you nothing about how a pll works i suggest you don t try this op amp information can also be found in the forest mims radio shack info booklets and the popular op amp is a snap to work with setting frequency and bandpass filter values are not so easy so i would suggest the method firstmost i have no idea what this is going into so i am really generalizing as for manufacturing techniques if you re only goofing with it i suggest you breadboard the thing no need to solder wire wrap would be the next more permanent step and lastly soldering pcb making hope that clears things squish endor harvard edu
sci.electronics	re what to do with old k simms in article qkf hinn c rave larc nasa gov kludge grissom larc nasa gov scott dorsey writes in article c jch frc ulowell ulowell edu wex cs ulowell edu writes in article apr csx cciw ca u csx cciw ca g stewart beal writes i was wondering if people had any good uses for old k simms i have a bunch of them for the apple mac and i know lots of other people do to i have tried to sell them but have gotten no interest well if you re willing to spend a little money you could buy one of those ide caching controllers assuming you have an ide of course and put the k simms on them hardware cache srikanth
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries part in article apr cronkite ocis temple edu camter astro ocis temple edu carter ames writes i thought the first thread was hilarious so here goes another post some more background information on what has happened to my poor batteries one year i left the batteries in the garage the garage is unheated they were left in their places that they needed to be one in the riding lawnmower what a lux and one in each motorcycle the battery in the riding lawnmower was about years old and one of the cycle batteries was new and one was around years old upon spring time i discovered that all of the batteries were dead and needed to be recharged they all worked properly except for the older ones and they had to be replaced about halfway through the summer they had originally been stored in the garage and i think i remember my dad charging them in spring last year i decided to bring them in to the basement which has two parts one is dirt and brick and the other is concrete i brought in all three and discovered in the spring about days ago that not only were the batteries dead but when i put the charger on them the charger said hmmmmmmmm and the amp meter read around in other words it was pinned the internal circut tripped and i went on to the other batteries they were the same realizing that we still had gigantic sailboat batteries also lead acid i decided to put the charger on them these had been sitting for around and a half years on the brick and dirt part and noticed that they only needed a small charge around hours or so on trickle i tested them by using them at the local gas station for giving jump starts and they worked fine for around of em this leads me to believe one of several things i bought really tty batteries last year sorta true the concrete has something to do with the discharge of the batteries there was enough moisture to short out the terminals in the room where the concrete is the dirt room was able to absorb the moisture in the air better than concrete btw i can almost waterski in the dirt room any other ideas could be the aliens anything is possible the lead acid secondary cell releases energy electricity with the following chemical reaction pb pbo h so pbso h lead and lead iv oxide and sulfuric acid produce lead sulfate and water the standard heats of formation at c f of the various compounds are heat of formation compound at c kcal mole pb pbo h so pbso h the heat of reaction at c is therefore kcal per mole pbso produced note that lead sulfate is not very soluble grams per grams water at c and it will thus precipitate out of solution where the reaction is occurring or the cathode positive terminal of the battery i am almost sure it is the positive terminal where the precipitate forms but i may be wrong oh well i don t have a corroded battery to corrobate and i don t feel like thinking through it right now what is important to notice here is that the reaction as you knew it would be is exothermic or energy discharging if moisture with dissolved electrolytes acid rain condenses on the battery a conductive path between the terminals may form this will discharge the battery as the chemical reaction proceeds the reaction is reversible if electricity from an alternator or battery charger is put back into the battery lead acid batteries must change in chemical composition to discharge each cell has all the reactants necessary for the reaction the non reacting posts terminals of the lead acid battery are there to remove or add electric energy during a discharge or charge because the reaction is exothermic it has a tendency to happen though quite slowly under normal circumstances so while keeping the battery dry is a good idea it is not a total solution to understand why lead acid batteries do indeed discharge faster when stored on concrete as opposed to wood or earth dirt one should recall lechatelier s principle which can be paraphrased as anything subjected to some stress will act to move to a more comfortable position here are the thermal conductivities of a some selected materials thermal conductivity material temperature c f btu hr ft ft f ft diatomaceous earth natural across strata diatomaceous natural parallel to strata diatomaceous earth powder density lb cu ft concrete cinder stone dry pine across grain parallel to grain oak across grain maple across grain note that the thermal conductivity for dirt diatomaceous earth goes down with temperature also c is about k and the values for earth powder are on the same order of magnitude as natural earth the thermal conductivity of concrete is around a factor of greater than that of dirt and is times greater than wood it is these differences in thermal conductivity that cause the battery on concrete to discharge faster than that on dirt or wood at any instant the discharge reaction is occurring energy is being released either as electricity or heat thermal conductivity of air is about btu hr ft ft f ft during storage except for the trickle that passes through any condensate on the battery this energy is mostly released as heat the higher conductivity surface will remove the heat proportionately faster than the lower conductivity surface thus if you perfectly insulated a dry battery on all but the bottom surface at any given battery temperature above the storage surface temperature the battery on a concrete surface will be discharging about times faster than that on dirt this is where lechatelier s principle comes into play removing energy from the exothermic reaction will drive the reaction further to completion if the reaction normally occurs at room temperature keeping the battery at that temperature requires the removal of any heat produced a concrete surface is a better heat sink than a dirt or wood surface store a battery in the corner of a poured concrete basement and you have surfaces removing energy which pulls the reaction along also if water evaporates from the battery that elevates the ratio of sulfuric acid to water this will tend to drive the discharge reaction jeff white jhwhit ulkyvx louisville edu how do i get the ketchup out of my pocket protector french fries
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days in article rg hinnsr darkstar ucsc edu hugo cats ucsc edu hugo calendar writes i m wondering if i can tote my american touch tone phone around with me to sweden and germany it s dc powered and i can buy a special adapter for that in europe the question is if the general electronics work the same i can buy a different wall plug and refit it i m sure i d have to but would that do the trick two things to watch for in germany and i think the same holds for sweden only some of the connections can handle tone dialing so make sure the phone can be set to pulse dialing in sweden the is the first digit and all other digits are pushed down by one position this makes dialing and in the process converting numbers an interesting task otherwise it is technically no problem to connect a foreign phone to either the german or swedish phone system otoh neither you nor i would ever try that as it is of course illegal wolfgang diestelkamp wd cs tu berlin de wolfgang first gmd de
sci.electronics	re rpm floopy drives update in article c wiee gn ms uky edu msunde mik uky edu writes hopefully this should sort it all out not bad for quid normally pardon my ignorance of foreign currency and exchange rates but what is a quid how does it relate to the british pound or whatever it s called and what is that in american dollars k sorry should have used correct terminology quid knicker approx u s dollars the terry pratchett book good omens contains an adequate explanation of the rather strange uk money system past and present for americans tibetans and other alien species michael brown csulo csv warwick ac uk mjb dcs warwick ac uk lost interest it s so bad i ve lost apathy
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days in article wd apr sam cs tu berlin de wd cs tu berlin de wolfgang diestelkamp writes in article rg hinnsr darkstar ucsc edu hugo cats ucsc edu hugo calendar writes i m wondering if i can tote my american touch tone phone around with me to sweden and germany it s dc powered and i can buy a special adapter for that in europe the question is if the general electronics work the same i can buy a different wall plug and refit it i m sure i d have to but would that do the trick two things to watch for in germany and i think the same holds for sweden only some of the connections can handle tone dialing so make sure the phone can be set to pulse dialing most if not virtually all swedish exchanges can handle tone dialling many older electromechanical exchanges have been modified accept tone dialling lars henrik eriksson internet lhe sics se swedish institute of computer science phone intn l box telefon nat l s kista sweden fax
sci.electronics	pals gals does anyone know how can i get detailed information about pals and gals please reply via e mail thanks a lot in advance red paola dei unipd it red maya dei unipd it
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days wd cs tu berlin de wolfgang diestelkamp writes in article rg hinnsr darkstar ucsc edu hugo cats ucsc edu hugo calendar writes i m wondering if i can tote my american touch tone phone around with me to sweden and germany it s dc powered and i can buy a special adapter for that in europe the question is if the general electronics work the same i can buy a different wall plug and refit it i m sure i d have to but would that do the trick two things to watch for in germany and i think the same holds for sweden only some of the connections can handle tone dialing so make sure the phone can be set to pulse dialing in sweden the is the first digit and all other digits are pushed down by one position this makes dialing and in the process converting numbers an interesting task this is just basicly right the connections that cannot handle touchtone dialing is very few i would estimate a couple of percents and if you are in a bigger town there is none that cannot handle tone dialing and regarding our swedish dialing system a rather screwd up system that does just apply to pulsdialing not to touchtone btw norway is even more interesting they got both system so you need different phones depending on where in the country you live joakim gunnarsson tde abacus hgs se
sci.electronics	rf communications link hi our problem is the following we have to design an rf link for a distance of m we re using standard rs waves square pulses as the modulating waves and the carrier wave is sinusoidal the link has to be bidirectional we would appreciate any advice on the type of modulating techniques or antennas that we should use please internet email us at gjf witsvma wits ac za nando or bww witsvma wits ac za warren or blumenow underdog ee wits ac za warren thank you very much in advance n w
sci.electronics	re blue led s gladman aviv said re blue led s to all on ga in order to emit blue light a semiconductor must have a band gap ga energy within the region of to electron volts according to my ga physical electronics prof you can t get an led with that band gap ga that s why you don t find blue leds or for that matter some other ga colour of leds that is not to say that blue leds can t be found i ve ga seen blue leds sold but they were just your typical visible light ga led in a blue plastic covering they didn t emit very much light this is not true they have and do make blue led s they are about in digikey nm wavelength by the way stephen cyberman toz buffalo ny us mangled on sun at i think k will be enough bill gates blue wave qwk v
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days in article rgka n k corax udac uu se tde hgs se joakim gunnarsson writes two things to watch for in germany and i think the same holds for sweden only some of the connections can handle tone dialing so make sure the phone can be set to pulse dialing in sweden the is the first digit and all other digits are pushed down by one position this makes dialing and in the process converting numbers an interesting task i think all connections in norway can handle touchtone dialing not to touchtone btw norway is even more interesting they got both system so you need different phones depending on where in the country you live the oslo region has one system the rest of the country another system so you need different phones depending on where in the country you live almost right for pulsdialing some phones have a little switch inside so you are able to use them all over norway or you can just renumber the numbers on your phone anders bj o rnestad division of computer science and telematics norwegian inst of technology trondheim norway email abjoern idt unit no internet x c no prmd uninett o unit ou idt s abjoern
sci.electronics	caltech puff pd ftp rf tools hi there does anyone know whether the puff rf design package is available via ftp from any site as i understand it it is in the public domain please correct me if i m wrong on this one any other pd rf design tools out there that can be recommended especially microstrip filter tools s lehane lehane kellett g kmh siemens nixdorf information systems bracknell lehane sni co uk phone fax compuserve standard disclaimers apply warranty void if opened
sci.electronics	re how to drive an array of leds ptorre hardy u washington edu phil torre writes i have a project in mind that requires an array of leds that can be addressed individually by a microprocessor say x or so is there an lsi that is designed to drive an led array including ram to hold the array state or failing that some way of multiplexing the display so i don t have to latch a bit for each led using a discrete latch i want to avoid having a huge board covered with s if possible thanks in advance maxim makes a chip that does exactly what you want the max drives segment led displays with full decode or drives discrete led s with a wire serial interface the chips can also be cascaded to allow very large arrays i am working on a sign display using this part i ll have to post the contact info for maxim later it s at home there was a series of articles on this chip in the last couple of circuit cellar ink s mike harpe michael harpe programmer analyst information technology ormsby bldg mike hermes louisville edu university of louisville louisville ky he s not a man he s a remorseless eating machine the simpsons
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected comments about who needs backup copies and you do deleted i ll toss in my cents worth i ve begun to think that distribution disks are made on some of the least reliable floppy disk stocks available we ve been especially plagued by borland s distribution disks i m lucky if i can install from them as many as times before they crap out on me so definitely as a matter of course we always make copies to do our installations with paul marxhausen university of nebraska lincoln grace happens
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected kuo sheng kasey chang kschang sfsuvax sfsu edu wrote in article apr miavx acs muohio edu sjmadsen nextsrv cas muohio edu steve madsen writes this is not a good idea i upgraded my motherboard last fall i would have been quite pissed at any software that would have forced me to reinstall simply because i changed motherboards opinion is understandable i assume you have a tape drive not all of us have about floppies around for backup you know actually no i don t have a tape drive in the event of a total hard disk failure i reinstall the apps from originals and restore the data from the backups i keep of that with upwards of mb of stuff on my hard disk there is no way i m going to try and back it all up without a tape drive would be nice to have one though ram is something you add all the time so no it s more like bios manufacturer and or processor type etc data cannot be used esp with these new flash rom bios machines with updates on a diskette maybe maybe not today it doesn t happen as often i would hope but then if a bios is buggy and the user gets an upgrade the bios information is going to change at least the date anyway tagging the bios manufacturer is still going to falsely tag those users who upgrade the motherboard this type of upgrade doesn t require a hard disk backup restore on the other hand to make this less intrusive it could be disguised as please insert original disk xx as i need file yyyyyy for update it would be perfectly reasonable sort of as long as it wasn t done too terribly often otherwise i think it would get annoying and the user would go looking for other software this is silly it s much easier to loan disks to a friend and let them do an install than to backup your copy already on disk and then give them that your scheme isn t going to stop anyone of course it is easier are you saying then the originals should allow only one install what is your point of course not if something gets corrupted and my app needs to be reinstalled the worst thing i want that software telling me is this software has already been registered to blank and it is against the law to install it on other machines or something similar access for windows does this and it only requires a click on ok to go away pretty non intrusive but it gets the point across what i said was the program should have certain restriction such as the restrict to one machine until the program is registered with the manufacturer the manufacturer will then supply the then proven legitimate user with a patch that will disable the restriction and proudly proclaim the legal copy with the registered to xxx screen this is a great idea i like the key system that some shareware products use the only problem is that it will be difficult for big software companies to implement this without it getting very cost ineffective for them and more of a burden than a benefit to the users steve madsen sjmadsen nextsrv cas muohio edu ask me about linux the free unix
sci.electronics	clear lcd or led sheets i am interested in finding a supplier for an array of leds on material which is transparent when nothing is lit i m not quite sure what lcd screens are like away from the laptop but i would guess they are not too clear an ideal item would be an led array for which each led is about square yes very course this is for distance viewing but on a window any pointers of suggestions would be much appreciated mark battisti mbattist magnus acs ohio state edu summit street b columbus ohio
sci.electronics	digital ac scaling being in the visualization stage of a circuit design right now i was wondering what the best way to scale an ac voltage using an bit digital word is i am thinking of using the common method of sending the word through an adc and then comparing it with the ac voltage converted to a sawtooth wave to get a duty cycle however i am leary of this method because it a requires a lot of parts and more importantly b creates a lot of interference from the switching on the entire ac line i realize that correct filtering could cancel out most of this interference but that would require more parts and boost the price further someone mentioned to me that they had seen an ic which input bits of data and directly scaled the ac voltage coming in all on chip unfortunately he couldn t remember the chip number or the manufacturer if anyone else has heard of this chip please e mail me i am building this project as a dimmer box for a light controller circuit and it is important that the cost of each box remains very low because one dimmer is required for each light that the user wishes to control well each channel at least therefor if each box costs i doubt that an end user will want to dish out x for sixteen channels this is something i have noticed about today s dimmer boxes they are so expensive anyway any help which someone could offer on either a method of easily doing this or info about the chip which will do it for me always the preferred method will be greatly appreciated michael carr m carr onu edu
sci.electronics	re rf communications link in article blumenow underdog ee wits ac za blumenow underdog ee wits ac za warren blumenow writes we have to design an rf link for a distance of m we re using standard rs waves square pulses as the modulating waves and the carrier wave is sinusoidal the link has to be bidirectional we would appreciate any advice on the type of modulating techniques or antennas that we should use what frequency is your carrier have you considered using two tones one for and another for how high is your rs data rate can you use more than one carrier freq have you considered hiring an rf data transmission consultant just curious galen watts kf yj
sci.electronics	re power signal surges in home in article apr hpcvaac cv hp com billn hpcvaac cv hp com bill nelson writes brian ucsd edu brian kantor writes listen to the interference if you hear voices clearly it almost certainly isn t ham radio and might well be cb if you can record a bit of it you could take the tape over to a local ham operator s house and ask him for his opinion of what you re hearing most communities you cannot do that legally why can t he record it legally it may not be admissable in court but recording for personal use is legal if he wants to play it for his ham friend that s legal too as long as he doesn t charge admission unfortunately most consumer equipment is succeptable it is all poorly designed here here btw hams are allowed amplifiers cb isn t illegal ham amplifier doesn t compute it does but not for a mobile radio there are very few mobile rigs that could power a watt amplifier bill it doesn t actually have to be watts at feet i ve heard radio transmissions from concert security over guitar amps with no guitar plugged in and security uses radios transmitting watts into a rubber duck antenna which acts more like a dummy load than an antenna hey bill where were you three weeks ago when all this stuff was posted and dealt with galen watts kf yj
sci.electronics	what type of ic is this greets i have an ic i need help in identifying it is an pin ic with the following label w w any help would be greatly appreciated in identifying this chip kevin kevin jones kpjone ulkyvx ct louisville edu lab supervisor kpjone ulkyvx louisville edu computing and telecommunications phone university of louisville ky fax the only good racist is a dead racist
sci.electronics	help looking for oscilloscope source hi all i am looking for a new oscilloscope bk b it looks like goldstar os s if i can find one cheap enough and would like suggestions on a low priced source for them currently btw fry s electronics in los angeles has the b for the best price i ve seen overall for now they carry the gs os s for but i need the s because of the mhz b w thanks all joseph chiu josephc cco caltech edu os you gotta get this thing msc caltech pasadena ca happiness is suspending x wings to make an appointment calendar entry and to send a fax and resuming the game
sci.electronics	re clear lcd or led sheets mbattist magnus acs ohio state edu mark a battisti writes i am interested in finding a supplier for an array of leds on material which is transparent when nothing is lit i m not quite sure what lcd screens are like away from the laptop but i would guess they are not too clear an ideal item would be an led array for which each led is about square yes very course this is for distance viewing but on a window any pointers of suggestions would be much appreciated what pray tell are you putting together and what about costs and does it have to be transparent as in totally transparent or just transparent enough to allow light from the other side to shine through joseph chiu josephc cco caltech edu os you gotta get this thing msc caltech pasadena ca happiness is suspending x wings to make an appointment calendar entry and to send a fax and resuming the game
sci.electronics	re silver solder andy shiekh shiekh ictp trieste it wrote i have seen the existance of electronics solder with a silver content that seems to have good wetting and fatique reatings can anyone tell me why it is not used silver is not such an expensive metal andy for the most part silver solder is not used for general soldering tasks due to the mechanism of dendritic growth silver solder when exposed to high humidity and placed in an electric field will actually grow dendrites which are conductive and will adventually electrically short across closely spaced nodes which are creating the field for this reason silver is allowed only in hermetically sealed assemblies fortunatly tin lead solder is quite stable and will not grow dendrites as fast as silver solder therefore it is used extensively jerry long long spk hp com disclaimer opinions are my own and do not reflect those of my employer
sci.electronics	re laser vs bubblejet there is a cartridge capping upgrade for older deskjet printers available from hewlett packard older original deskjet and possibly deskjet units may have a black plastic slide with rubber capping components in the cartrige parking area on the right side viewed from front of the printer newer printers have a gray or white plastic slide the black plastic slide can allow your cartridge to dry out there was and may still be information packaged with ink cartridges explaining the situation hp placed a coupon for a free upgrade kit to modernize old deskjets to the new capping mechanism i did this on my printer and did indeed find that the cartidges now last longer i don t have the information handy i suggest contacting your nearest hp service center for information on obtaining the kit hp has upgrade kits that consist of electronics and mechanical components that vary depending on the starting level printer and the level to which you wish to upgrade i upgraded my original desket to a dekjet the kit was fairly expensive you are likely better off selling your old printer and purchasing a new deskjet now that prices have declined so much upgrading an original deskjet to requires a fair amount of skill but no soldering upgrading a deskjet plus to a is involves swapping the processor card and changing a few minor parts contact your hp service center for further information the pcl language used by deskjets is considerably different from the pcl used by laser printers especially the newer laser printers the biggest problem is dumb laser drivers that send a raster end command after each scan line this makes no material difference for lasers but causes the deskjet to print the accumulated raster as you might guess the result is hideously slow printing the new dos wordperfect print deskjet drivers are still guilty of this particular behavior from the way wordperfect works this would not be easy to change windows wordperfect works efficiently unless you use the dos drivers instead of windows the pcl dialect used in the laserjet iiip allows compression that permits a full page dpi image to be rendered with only one megabyte of memory an uncompressed image could be as large as about kbytes but the printer needs about k of memory for its internal house keeping laserjet iv models support banded printing that allows incrmental download of the image with compression in limited memory situations deskjet downloadable fonts are not compatible with laserjet fonts a single page from a laserjet only requires about seconds this is faster than any but the most trivial printing from a deskjet printer the presumption of course being that the laser printer has completed its warm up cyle until ink chemistry is changed wicking resulting in image deterioration is unavoidable i won t use the word impossible but matching laser quality output from a deskjet printer is unlikely chosing an appropriate paper type helps but does not eliminate the problem laser printers are more wastful of energy and consumable components hp does accept return of spent toner cartridges mitigating the material waste problem to a degree energy waste could use more work warm up times have decreased allowing stand by current consumption to be significantly reduced in the laserjet iv kyocera produces a laser print engine that employs an amorphous silicon imaging drum with a replacable toner system the image drum is good for approximately k copies it is a very nice print engine i wish hp used the kyocera engine kyocera also has a neat modular paper source and stacker system the recommended duty cycle for a deskjet is significantly lower than any of hp s laser printers the pick up pressure rollers are subject to wear and i case confirm eventually do wear out the usual symptom is that the printer becomes reluctant to feed paper the paper feed is integrated in a transport mechanism that is a single part from hp service replacement cost for the transport is almost the feed rollers are not separately replacable though it would not be a difficult job for a competent technician i have disassembled and reassembled the transport on my own printer it depends upon the application which printer is best for you if you only print or pages a day and are satisfied with the appearance of output the deskjet is a very good choice as noted the deskjet is my choice for personal use bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown oh usa phone wtm uhura neoucom edu n wed
sci.electronics	re blue led s baden de bari baden inqmind bison mb ca wrote so what s the story here we re all stuck with the regular green red and off yellow orange led s what gives anybody have a scoop on fairly low priced blue led s if your looking for leds in the range forget it blue leds just recently became available and the materials they are made of are expensive maybe in the future they will become less expensive and brighter but for now it s going to cost you and the output will be limited if they ever do get as efficient and cost effective as red and green leds you re probably going to see a whole new family of color displays charlie brett ft collins co
sci.electronics	re multiple inputs for pc in article u uicvm uic edu u uicvm uic edu writes can anyone offer a suggestion on a problem i am having i have several boards whose sole purpose is to decode dtmf tones and send the resultant in ascii to a pc these boards run on the serial interface i need to run of the boards somwehat simultaneously i need to be able to ho ok them up to a pc the problem is how do i hook up serial devices to one pc inexpensivley so that all can send data simulataneously or close to it any help would be greatly appreciated abhin singla if you can modify the design of the dtmf decoder the ideal comunications would be over a multi drop system like rs rs boards are available for pc s probably cheaper than a bunch of rs channels and rs is cheaper to build onto your satellite modules using only a single supply pin dip driver chip software at the pc end would be similarly complex for either rs or rs in my opinion the higher data rates possible with rs would permit quasi simultaneous data transmission hope this helps rod nussbaumer programmer technologist bitnet bomr triumfer triumf university of british columbia internet bomr erich triumf ca vancouver bc canada phone ext
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days i don t know much about phones in germany but this is what i know i bought a phone in the u s for my mother who lives in bratislava slovakia and it works just fine the problem is they don t have wall jacks like we do here there is a wire without any jack at the end sticking out of the wall so you need to connect the wires i m not sure if they have wall jacks in western europe they may hope this helps dagmar kniha carson u washington edu
sci.electronics	radar laser detectors what are people s opinions about laser detectors escort makes a laser detector the passport and claims it works fine however i ve talked to some people who have said that it will only work if you are lucky i e if the cop happens to point his laser at a car in front of you and the laser beam happens to reflect back to your detector otherwise it won t work regular radar of course travels in all directions hence it is more detectable any comments escort has a deal till the end of april i think where if you buy their wideband passport x k ka and laser detectors you ll save off of buying them separately in this case the addition of the laser detector over the passport is only i e passport normally costs eddie gornish university of illinois center for supercomputing research development gornish csrd uiuc edu
sci.electronics	re how do you build neural networks in article rbs e m s insti physics sunysb edu mmoss ic sunysb edu matthew d moss writes subject says it all though i should specify that i m looking for solutions that don t require me purchasing specific chips etc first you find a congenial member of the opposite sex thomas clarke institute for simulation and training university of central fl research parkway suite orlando fl fax clarke acme ucf edu i couldn t resist
sci.electronics	re caltech puff pd ftp rf tools in article apr sni co uk mje sni co uk mike evis writes hi there does anyone know whether the puff rf design package is available via ftp from any site as i understand it it is in the public domain please correct me if i m wrong on this one puff is sold by caltech although very inexpensively for the quality source was also available for the earlier releases for a nominal charge but i m not sure if this practise is continued regards stu beal ve mwm u csx cciw ca national water research institute burlington ontario canada we d made it through yet another nuclear winter and the lawn had just trapped and eaten its first robin kyle j spiller
sci.electronics	re luser in article apr sol ctr columbia edu seema madvlsi columbia edu seema varma writes hi i am looking for a high speed d to a converter at least bits and mhz for testing a chip any ideas on where i can find such a monster a paper in the january issue of ieee journal of solid state circuits authors from philips eindhoven mentions a ghz bits gaas dac they use in their testing so i know that such circuits are around somewhere triquint beaverton oregon has been selling an bit ghz d to a for several years i have used it and it works well faster settling time and smaller glitch area than any video d dacs i have seen also they have been developing a more precise version that may be for sale now it s somewhere in the to bit area at ghz arnold frisch tektronix laboratories
sci.electronics	re why circuit boards are green kuusama kaarne cs tut fi kuusama juha vtt writes not that the question is anything important but i am still curious why is that almost all printed circuit boards are green i have seen a few blue ones but no red yellow company logo etc is there a technical reason or could it be that the marketing geniuses have not tought about it yet the green layer is a solder mask and is used to make a finished board look neat and to avoid solder bridges especially when using wave soldering or any other mechanized approach i ve seen red mask but most that i ve seen are green a bakelite board will look brown in colour and if the solder mask is put on looks like a brown board with green paint on either side or just one side of the board a fibreglass board will look green from the side because the green solder mask makes the board appear that colour if you got a fibreglass board with no mask it would be a whitish grey colour teflon boards do exist as well but i m not sure about that one i d guess the stuff they invented for solder mask was green so they re not about to change also any change in any chemical probably requires a better than normal cleaning of the machines that make boards a lot of companies do not make their own boards they ship them to a real boardhouse
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article apr yuma acns colostate edu jmiller terra colostate edu jeff miller writes in an earlier article kasey chang wrote nothing but if you read my whole suggestion i m saying that you register via mail by mailing in your registration card then the company send you the patch which includes the info you put on the registration card the problem with this scheme is that when i buy a game i want to play it that day mailing a card to and from california would probably take a week or more i didn t say the program is disabled did i i hate it when people take my words out of context i mean that once you have installed it you cannot deinstall it without registering it or transfer it to another machine or some sort of limitation the author will decide which will be removed when the program is registered kasey chang
sci.electronics	re what type of ic is this in article apr ulkyvx louisville edu kpjone ulkyvx louisville edu writes i have an ic i need help in identifying it is an pin ic with the following label w w the w is the date code but none of my books list a w what is it out of and can you tell us what kind of circuit it is in in the odd case that w is not the date code nte says a is an am reciever subsystem and a is an fm subsystem but these are both in pin packages more info please galewn watts kf yj
sci.electronics	re ntsc horiz vert drive from black burst jackp netsys com jack powers writes i would like to hook up some cameras that were recently donated to our local community cable tv station which have sync inputs in the form of horizontal and vertical drive our station sync is a black burst which works fine with other boxes with genlock style inputs can anyone point me at a design article or whatever showing how to produce the horizontal vertical drive signals check the station s master sync generator you ll probably find that it already has horizontal and vertical drive outputs that just aren t being used a couple of cables and you re in business another possibility is to find a genlockable sync generator with hd and vd outputs genlock it to station sync and then feed hd and vd to the cameras if neither of these is possible then you ll have to build a sync separator look at the circuit diagrams of your existing sync generators they probably all include circuitry that does what you want dave
sci.electronics	features for answering machines esp digital hello i m curious what sort of neat features exist on high end answering machines today in particular i m interested in features of digital answering machines also what is the typical amount of storage in minutes for these digital answering machines the reason i m hacking together an answering machine program for my zyxel modem and i m wondering if i m missing something on my wish list arthur the first fact to face is that unix was not developed with security in any reliable sense in mind this fact alone guarantees a vast number of holes on the security of unix dennis m ritchie arthur tateishi ruhtra turing utoronto ca
sci.electronics	re laser vs bubblejet in article apr das harvard edu squish endor uucp shishin yamada writes when soaking in water lasers are slightly sharper but the only instance where i needed precise layouts was printed circuit board transparencies for photoetching i found a textronix color phaser postscript thermal wax transfer to work the best to make pcb negatives directly onto a transparency did the deskjet work at all when printing on transparencies if it did what sort of resolution could it manage adrian adrian godwin agodwin acorn co uk adrian fangorn demon co uk g hwn gb khw obdisclaimer i believe this rubbish don t imagine that anyone else does
sci.electronics	re descrambling channels sean oliver sean oliver mindlink bc ca wrote i live up in british columbia canada the cable company i use is called rogers cable does anyone know of their scrambling techniques and ways of getting around them any suggestions of what they might use i don t know the answer to your question but i am sure rogers cable can so i tool the libery of forwarding your question to them and i am sure they will be in touch marc christensen
sci.electronics	solvent for duct tape adhesive i know this is a long shot but does anyone know what solvent i should use to clean duct tape adhesive from carpet someone taped wires to the carpet and now it is time to move out is the solvent the same as what s used to clean up the goop in coax whatever that is but it just barely ties this query into sci electronics thanks for your help best regards ruck john r ruckstuhl jr ruck alpha ee ufl edu dept of electrical engineering ruck cis ufl edu uflorida ruck university of florida ruck sphere cis ufl edu sphere ruck
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days in article wd apr sam cs tu berlin de wd cs tu berlin de wolfgang diestelkamp writes otherwise it is technically no problem to connect a foreign phone to either the german or swedish phone system otoh neither you nor i would ever try that as it is of course illegal oh yes the good ol deutsche bundespost shortly after moving to germany someone told me that post is an acronym for the public organization for the suppression of technology stimmt oder i miss a lot of things about germany yes including the bier vending machines at work that were subsidized by the firm but the phone system is not one of them tom spraggins tas virginia edu
sci.electronics	re removing battery corrosion from article apr princeton edu by fuchs tsar princeton edu ira h fuchs is there a readily available solvent that does a good job at removing the corrosion encrustation that collects on the battery terminals usually the cathode when using alkaline batteries or more accurately when not using them for a long time generally the corrosion is a signal that it s time to send them of to the recyclers but if you re that desperate or cheap try baking soda and a wire brush use gloves and goggles please
sci.electronics	references for any ic i am looking for a text reference that will include pinouts description and functionality for just about any ic made does such a text exist are there docs on the internet that reference ic s it would be a great idea if each major ic manufacturer made available to the public an anonymous ftp site with all it s data books in the form of text files ala rfc style this would save time and money for the ic manufacturer since a text file costs nothing to send around the world via internet and since most users of ic s are found in the internet anyway are there any books available for purchase that reference as many as possible or am i going to be stuck obtaining a zillion databooks from the manufacturers those little phonebook type books that are obsoleted every couple years
sci.electronics	re clear lcd or led sheets an ideal item would be an led array for which each led is about square yes very coarse this is for distance viewing but on a window any pointers of suggestions would be much appreciated what pray tell are you putting together and what about costs and does it have to be transparent as in totally transparent or just transparent enough to allow light from the other side to shine through yes it has to be very clear like it wasn t there and of course cost is always a factor i am trying to get an idea of the feasability of such an idea but i don t want to give too much away mark
sci.electronics	re voice synth chips alltronics in san jose sells the votrax sc speech synthesis chip for about also i noticed that radio shack sells the isd chip which will store small amounts of digitized speech good luck
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in apr csus edu kschang sfsuvax sfsu edu kuo sheng kasey chang writes in article apr yuma acns colostate edu jmiller terra colostate edu jeff miller writes in an earlier article kasey chang wrote nothing but if you read my whole suggestion i m saying that you register via mail by mailing in your registration card then the company send you the patch which includes the info you put on the registration card the problem with this scheme is that when i buy a game i want to play it that day mailing a card to and from california would probably take a week or more i didn t say the program is disabled did i i hate it when people take my words out of context i mean that once you have installed it you cannot deinstall it without registering it or transfer it to another machine or some sort of limitation the author will decide which will be removed when the program is registered what you can t remove it unless you register you gotta be joking right what happens if i get a demo version of that program install it and then decide that i don t like it do i have to register to be able to get rid of it hell no that is the last thing i would think of if that is what you mean then you would better make pretty sure that a statement to that effect is printed loud and clear on the package a better way to implement the above mentioned scheme is imho to allow anyone to install the program but if they register they get some additional features enabled it could mean only one new exe file needed to be copied to have got the full version of the program of course anyone is free to delete or remove that program at whatever time they like still we face the trouble of moving the new exe file around that could be solved by having the user registering him self and get back a specially marked for him or her a new exe file as for some sort of limitations here are some suggestions limit the size of data that the program can work with disable saving the data print it out with some defects in the output but be sure to mark them as such let some pop up screen appear for ca secs when the program is started and or exited etc but don t have it that you must register to be able to remove it einari rhi hi is
sci.electronics	re flexible solar cells in article apr r node hub org wayne r node hub org wayne dawe writes two or three years ago i saw a report on tv about a company that had developed a method of making solar cells on a flexible substrate my failing memory has convinced me it was some flexible metal i now have an application that requires a flexible solar cell and was hoping someone out in netland knows something about this company or a similar product any help would be greatly appreciated wayne dawe pick a path any path but don t send me wayne r node hub org anything bigger than k wayne r node gts org wayne r node pci on ca wayne r node uucp wayne look for these advertised in sailboat supplies catalogs and sail related magazines eg sail david prutchi hc dt washington university prutchi mesun wustl edu campus box dp cec wustl edu one brookings drive st louis mo
sci.electronics	re d g h type amplifiers in article unix andrew cmu edu mark yeck writes hey can someone clue me in on these and other weird types of amplifiers just a brief intro to the concepts behind these would be cool i have the clues on type a b and ab already and stuff but these other ones are mentioned occasionally and i dont know what they do i think type d is like a pwm scheme or something thanx in advanced the whole point to these weird amplifier types is improved efficiency class d amps are pwm pulse width modulation amps which work very much like switching power supplies i think i ve seen these things called class s before as well they re capable of very high efficiencies and would be suitable for very high power i ve yet to see anything like this used in an audiophile amp though i ve been trying to design a three kilowatter for the last year to be used as an inverter for an ups but have been having serious problems with layout parasitics irf s in parallel any help with a do able isolated drive ckt would be appreciated i m not absolutely positive about this but i beleive a class g amp is one that operates off a variable or switched power supply rail voltage the carver amps do something like this they use some sort of phase control circuit i do not fully understand its operation to reduce the transformer size and i beleive that is patented i had an m apart trying to fix and found that it had three rail voltages that it switched between i ran a simulation on pspice and found that the topology would greatly reduce power dissipation heat under large signal conditions or when driving reactive loads which draw high current at the zero voltage crossings think speaker dr diode great sound starts with warren eggo csee usf edu the source warren renoir cftnet com
sci.electronics	emi filter what s in it could someone tell me what s in a cornell dubilier emi filter fil it is rated at a vac hz is it just mov s and ferrite dave n mxx stevens institute of technology hoboken new jersey
sci.electronics	re how to get rid of flyback whine in article apr princeton edu jsm shade princeton edu john scott mccauley jr writes i recently took apart my color sony tv to clean the volume pushbuttons and when i put the beast back together the flyback whine got much louder is this easy to fix which part is resonating i have heard rumors of a spray that will fix the noise is this a simple thing for a tv repairman to fix thanks scott ah ha i m not alone at last which sony do you have i have a sxr pre xbr series circa that damn thing used to make noise like a mad man i had have separate problems one being the flyback the other was the assembly where the windings of the yoke came together first i found by poking around the windings on that assembly the thing would make noise i guess that there was enough of a potential in that assembly to leak so i sprayed it with a dielectric insulation spray i think it was urethane or acyrilic that fixed it second flyback for the life of me i can t isolate this one if i leave the cover off the tv will be quiet if i put the cover back on and let it heat up it ll start to whine kinda hard to solve with the cover on a friend of mine who used to fix tv s says there might be a pin hole leak somewhere on the flyback usually it s surrounded by a bunch of black dust dirt i hope this is a start if you find something out let me know aaron
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days in article wd apr sam cs tu berlin de wd cs tu berlin de wolfgang diestelkamp writes in article rg hinnsr darkstar ucsc edu hugo cats ucsc edu hugo calendar writes i m wondering if i can tote my american touch tone phone around with me to sweden and germany it s dc powered and i can buy a special adapter for that in europe the question is if the general electronics work the same i can buy a different wall plug and refit it i m sure i d have to but would that do the trick two things to watch for in germany and i think the same holds for sweden only some of the connections can handle tone dialing so make sure the phone can be set to pulse dialing in sweden the is the first digit and all other digits are pushed down by one position this makes dialing and in the process converting numbers an interesting task otherwise it is technically no problem to connect a foreign phone to either the german or swedish phone system otoh neither you nor i would ever try that as it is of course illegal i am not quite so sure about the illegality of using a regular american phone on your home system i vaguely remember a few years ago when deutsche bundespost split into postdienst postbank and telekom there was some discussion about a new regulation i know that cordless or cellular phones still have to be approved by the telekom but does that hold true for regular phones in my areacode in germany frechen near koeln you can use touch tone dialing i assume however that most areas are still exclusively set to pulse dialing last time i checked jan the cologne areacode was still solely pulse dialing btw touch tone does become more common in germany bringin with it the flourishing of services in germany i just hope we ll all have isdn some time at an affordable price idle wishes markus iturriaga things go smoother with lard iturriag utkvx utk edu bring back the glory that was grease iturriag utkvx bitnet east tennessee lard advisory council millard fillmore lives we ve got what it takes to take what you ve got
sci.electronics	re why circuit boards are green why are circuit boards green the material used to make them goes by two names if it is used to make circuit boards it is called fr the same material is used in the cryogenics industrya and marine industries as a structural material and is called g fr and g are both green they are not green because of a solder masking agent the basic ingredients are a clear epoxy resin and glass fibers i am not sure what the specs are on the resin but if you are really curious you can call nema national electronics manufacturing association or ciba geigy a major manufacturer of epoxy resins to find out as an aside i occasionally mix clear epoxy and glass microsphres to cast small structures for cryogenics experiments the proportions of glass to epoxy are about the same as in g they are the same green color
sci.electronics	fiber optic modems for sale cheap ok i sold all but these i had some offers and i accepted an offer of for the pair from bdale gag com bdale garbee i don t know what happened to him but he won t reply now that i accepted it so i ll offer these again please take these and use them take advantage of me i really don t know what they are worth qty canoga perkins fiber optic modems model rs interface appear new i have powered up but that s all i have not used them and i cannot tell you whether they work or not make offer thanks and please buy this stuff or it goes out the door mack mdgoodma cbda apgea army mil
sci.electronics	re references for any ic in a previous article ree zach fit edu keith ledig writes i am looking for a text reference that will include pinouts description and functionality for just about any ic made does such a text exist are there docs on the internet that reference ic s it would be a great idea if each major ic manufacturer made available to the public an anonymous ftp site with all it s data books in the form of text files ala rfc style this would save time and money for the ic manufacturer since a text file costs nothing to send around the world via internet and since most users of ic s are found in the internet anyway are there any books available for purchase that reference as many as possible or am i going to be stuck obtaining a zillion databooks from the manufacturers those little phonebook type books that are obsoleted every couple years we use a cd rom based system here there are about cd rom disks and a disk changer hooked to a dedicated ms dos computer it contains scanned images of data book pages for several thousand parts when you ask it for something it knows about mostly active ic parts it works quite well they don t handle all the varieties of transistors or diodes that exist it is definately a start in the right direction but they need to expand the data base to handle more types of stuff these systems aren t cheap we paid about for the liscence and get monthly updates of some of the cd rom disks we send the old ones back to them so that they will keep sending us the updates i think we pay a yearly maintainence fee of about to get the updates if you find the part you want you can look at the data sheet on a page sized monitor it s a special monitor from sigmasystems you can also print each page of the datasheet you want on a laserjet printer page printing takes a couple of minutes per page it can take a while to dump the or pages you usually need i have a feeling the maker wouldn t like it if we made the data available to all internet users dave dave mcmahan mcmahan netcom com n w
sci.electronics	mystery part i have a mystery part labeled nec ac it s from the low voltage supply of an nec multisync i monitor it s a three lead part in a square package like a volate regulator or power transistor the board is labeled cr where the part goes possibly an scr the pin labeled g on the board goes to a zener diode reference voltage the pin labeled t goes to the negative lead of a capacitor in the power supply and the pin labeled t goes to the negative side of the bridge rectifier in the supply if anyone can tell me what this is or better yet where i can buy one just like it please email me at ck i andrew cmu edu i ve called nec s monitor repair number and not only do they not know what the part is but they don t think that they can find one to sell to me it makes no sense to me thanks
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive ruck beach cis ufl edu john ruckstuhl writes i know this is a long shot but does anyone know what solvent i should use to clean duct tape adhesive from carpet may i tease out a sub thread from this discussion can you all please tell me how to remove the stickers from new houses appliances and outdoor lampposts especially the lamppost right on the glass isn t there something you can rub into stuck on labels that will release them from their death grip on glass or other hard surfaces many thanks for any help john john gustafson johng socrates umd edu
sci.electronics	ranger shareware hello the last issue of electronics world describes ranger a pcb cad program according to the article there is a crippled version available as shareware does anybody know of any ftp sites bbses where this program may be found thanks in advance terje malmedal unix dhmolde no
sci.electronics	re how universal are video phones these days just saw an article in new scientist at t videophones won t talk to bti videophones the at t ones use a kb modem bti uses kb at t models have to communicate using all at t exchanges whereas the bti can route via most current exchanges suggestions include building standards converters into telephone exchanges the mind boggles the bti design is a bit more conservative and is better able to cope with current data compression hardware on long distance lines not having the magazine to hand i may have mis remembered bti i think it is a british one made by gec marconi and currently selling to other countries yet another standards screw up andrew daviel vancouver canada advax triumf ca finger advax reg triumf ca for pgp key
sci.electronics	fm transmitter ics help i am trying to design a small mw mhz fm transmitter for remote alarm use is there an fm transmitter ic available that can be used for this purpose any help circuits info etc will be greatfully accepted please reply to bsc graham seqeb gov au thanks in advance graham castledine
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries part the lead acid secondary cell releases energy electricity with the following chemical reaction pb pbo h so pbso h lead and lead iv oxide and sulfuric acid produce lead sulfate and water heats of formation deleted the heat of reaction at c is therefore kcal per mole pbso produced note that lead sulfate is not very soluble grams per grams water at c and it will thus precipitate out of solution where the reaction is occurring or the cathode positive terminal of the battery i am almost sure it is the positive terminal where the precipitate forms but i may be wrong oh well i don t have a corroded battery to corrobate and i don t feel like thinking through it right now the major problem with this is that the reaction takes place in an acid solution pbso is soluble in an acid solution and will not precipitate out also h so is in a water solution as h and so thus the heats of formation of pbso and h so are for the most part irrelevant what is important to notice here is that the reaction as you knew it would be is exothermic or energy discharging as it turns out the reaction is indeed exothermic heat producing more about this later what actually happens to make the battery completely useless is this we re talking lead acid batteries of course the battery slowly self discharges as this discharge takes place two things happen the level of pb ions in the acid solution increases i e the lead and lead oxide plates are dissolved the level of h ions in the acid solution decreases i e the solution becomes less acidic or more like water if you like now as the post to which i am responding correctly stated pbso will precipitate in a water non acid solution when the battery dies i e is fully discharged we end up with a high concentration of pb and so in water so pbso forms in the solution and falls to the bottom of the battery of course this happens in varying degrees the more discharged the more precipitate forms the precipitate forms a conductive layer on the bottom of the battery if there is enough of the lead and lead oxide plates left to touch the precipitate more common in a newer battery a dead short results i have seen products in automotive shops to correct this condition but they are for the most part useless they can dissolve the pbso but cannot restore the lead and lead oxide plates properly you may have some success with these products for a newer battery stuff deleted to understand why lead acid batteries do indeed discharge faster when stored on concrete as opposed to wood or earth dirt one should recall lechatelier s principle which can be paraphrased as anything subjected to some stress will act to move to a more comfortable position here are the thermal conductivities of a some selected materials stuff deleted this is where lechatelier s principle comes into play removing energy from the exothermic reaction will drive the reaction further to completion if the reaction normally occurs at room temperature keeping the battery at that temperature requires the removal of any heat produced a concrete surface is a better heat sink than a dirt or wood surface store a battery in the corner of a poured concrete basement and you have surfaces removing energy which pulls the reaction along this stuff is just made up by the author and is completely invalid in fact the discharge reaction takes place at a higher rate at higher temperatures a logical consequence of the above argument is this if you really want your car to start lower the battery temperature to to pull the reaction along we all know from experience at least those of us in canada do it gets cold up here that this is not true if we want to start our car on a really cold day we warm the battery besides which there is not enough energy released through self discharge to appreciably raise the temperature the air would amply dissipate any such heat whether the bottom of the battery was insulated or not this is of course irrelevant since you would want the battery to be cool during storage just keep the battery in a cool dry place and keep it charged
sci.electronics	re pcmcia in article d nac cc synapse org martin vuille synapse org martin vuille writes does anyone know who to contact to obtain a copy of the pcmcia standard pcmcia g east duane st sunnyvale ca usa see also alt periphs pcmcia thanks dave pierson the facts as accurately as i can manage digital equipment corporation the opinions my own old bolton rd i am the nra stow mass usa pierson msd enet dec com he has read everything and to his credit written nothing a j raffles
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive i have used a product called goof off it comes in a little yellow can about the size of a deck of playing cards it has worked well for removing all kinds of sticker and tape residues note always test a small area in an inconspicuous place before using good luck wes whiteley wesw sr hp com
sci.electronics	pre fab pc case power supplies and csa ul fcc stuff what kind of csa ul fcc approval do mail order pc computer cases and power supplies have can i assume that the certification process for small scale custom hardware ie digital analog circuitry is reduced or even eliminated if i use such a case and certified power supply also assuming that i use a certified power supply have i satisfied the requirements of csa ul approval and possibly fcc approval as well do mail order pc cases satisfy fcc certification is fcc certification even necessary for scientific non commercial non residential use
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive ruck beach cis ufl edu john ruckstuhl writes at least locally many shops carry a product called goo gone it works well on scummy gummy sticky goop that won t go away as always color test in an inconspicuous corner before use joseph chiu josephc cco caltech edu os you gotta get this thing msc caltech pasadena ca happiness is suspending x wings to make an appointment calendar entry and to send a fax and resuming the game
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected i still think a major point is being missed if you are worried about software pirates nothing will stop them these are people who crack software mostly games but so what daily for fun they can usually find a crack around anything especially if the manufacturer leaves a hole for such a thing are we having fun yet
sci.electronics	re radar laser detectors in article gornish apr sp csrd uiuc edu gornish sp csrd uiuc edu edward h gornish writes what are people s opinions about laser detectors escort makes a laser detector the passport and claims it works fine however i ve talked to some people who have said that it will only work if you are lucky i e if the cop happens to point his laser at a car in front of you and the laser beam happens to reflect back to your detector otherwise it won t work regular radar of course travels in all directions hence it is more detectable any comments escort has a deal till the end of april i think where if you buy their wideband passport x k ka and laser detectors you ll save off of buying them separately in this case the addition of the laser detector over the passport is only i e passport normally costs uniden makes an all in one unit x k ka laser for about colorado radar sells passive radar jammers the passive supposedly being legal for about wont help you with laser however scott
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive in article apr socrates umd edu johng socrates umd edu john gustafson writes ruck beach cis ufl edu john ruckstuhl writes i know this is a long shot but does anyone know what solvent i should use to clean duct tape adhesive from carpet may i tease out a sub thread from this discussion can you all please tell me how to remove the stickers from new houses appliances and outdoor lampposts especially the lamppost right on the glass isn t there something you can rub into stuck on labels that will release them from their death grip on glass or other hard surfaces many thanks for any help john john gustafson johng socrates umd edu try wd
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive in article apr socrates umd edu johng socrates umd edu john gustafson writes i know this is a long shot but does anyone know what solvent i should use to clean duct tape adhesive from carpet may i tease out a sub thread from this discussion can you all please tell me how to remove the stickers from new houses appliances and outdoor lampposts especially the lamppost right on the glass isn t there something you can rub into stuck on labels that will release them from their death grip on glass or other hard surfaces petroleum naphtha available at most hardware stores will remove most adhesives frank reid ucs indiana edu
sci.electronics	does any one know what is the biggest rom for present please replay to yxy usl edu thanks a lot
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive what i usually use and this stuff is only good on glass is either acetone or a little benzene the latter of the two is a bit dangerous possibly a carcinogen sp but it usualy gets the job done i imagine you can you the two solvents on most metals as well as glass but keep the stuff away from plastic better yet you may just want to go to your local hardware store and ask them what they use
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive in article rh b inn r snoopy cis ufl edu ruck beach cis ufl edu john ruckstuhl writes i know this is a long shot but does anyone know what solvent i should use to clean duct tape adhesive from carpet someone taped wires to the carpet and now it is time to move out i don t know for sure that this will work but you might try mek methyl ethyl keytone it worked getting the stickum left over from shelf paper and is available at paint stores use a carbon gas mask and lots of ventilation this stuff really stinks dan
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive in article apr socrates umd edu johng socrates umd edu john gustafson writes ruck beach cis ufl edu john ruckstuhl writes i know this is a long shot but does anyone know what solvent i should use to clean duct tape adhesive from carpet i use wd may i tease out a sub thread from this discussion can you all please tell me how to remove the stickers from new houses appliances and outdoor lampposts especially the lamppost right on the glass isn t there something you can rub into stuck on labels that will release them from their death grip on glass or other hard surfaces many thanks for any help try wd xavier matthew xavier mora matt mora qm sri com sri international mxmora unix sri com ravenswood ave menlo park ca
sci.electronics	re wd as moisture repellant was lead acid batteries c in article apr auvax adelphi edu schmidt auvax adelphi edu writes platen etc flew across the room and several people in the room almost had heart attacks beware the explosive properties of wd vapor we use it as starting fluid for jet ski s the fact that its a lubricant works very well since jet ski s are cycle it also helps when a ski floods with water because we clean the spark plus with the stuff ob sci electronics i have an office studio in my garage with a phone in it our wireless phone has a page feature where you can make the phone or hand set ring to get the attention of the other person is there a simple circuit that i can use over the second pair of wires or the first pair to emulate this effect with the phone in the garage ie push a button to make the phone ring in the house or push a button to make it ring in the garage thanks xavier matthew xavier mora matt mora qm sri com sri international mxmora unix sri com ravenswood ave menlo park ca
sci.electronics	re x oversampling cd player in article mcmahanc v mkj netcom com mcmahan netcom com dave mc mahan writes in a previous article kolstad cae wisc edu joel kolstad writes in article hcbc un l dd netcom com hcb netcom com h c bowman writes i just bought a new portable cd player for the office and i notice that it proudly proclaims times oversampling on the box the data is only ever read once barring mistracks and such of course and eventually gets turned into khz bit two channel data oversampling takes two discrete data points and interpolates n points between them for n times oversampling when i asked people said that the interpolation was not simply linear interpolation but significantly more complicated you are quite correct in your understanding in case you care the filtering method uses an fir finite impulse response filter i d guess that cd makers use the same kind of method anybody out there know the real answer typical in the old x oversampling units was a thirteen tap fir implemented as a dedicated hardware addition circuit at this kind of speed slow by digital standards such an adder is much less expensive than analog components of comparable precision i gleaned this information from a hardware manual for an old cd player design where one would find similar info for a particular cd the digital filter is an interesting component from my point of view i have no idea the digital filter is a kind of interpolation scheme read a book on numerical analysis to see just how broad the term interpolation is john whitmore
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days in article apr utkvx utk edu iturriag utkvx utk edu mr y writes i am not quite so sure about the illegality of using a regular american phone on your home system i vaguely remember a few years ago when deutsche bundespost split into postdienst postbank and telekom there was some discussion about a new regulation i know that cordless or cellular phones still have to be approved by the telekom but does that hold true for regular phones in my areacode in germany frechen near koeln you can use touch tone dialing i assume however that most areas are still exclusively set to pulse dialing last time i checked jan the cologne areacode was still solely pulse dialing btw touch tone does become more common in germany bringin with it the flourishing of services in germany i just hope we ll all have isdn some time at an affordable price idle wishes does this imply the german tone dialing is compatible with the american one i know at least the british system is not it is supposedly close enough though that an american phone will work but my modem american has a special setting for british standards michael michael lemke astronomy ut austin texas michael io as utexas edu or utspan utadnx io michael span
sci.electronics	vga circuit i ve come across a circuit from integrated circuit systems inc called a gsp this chip genlocks a vga card to a dual input ntsc signal the output from this chip is basicly a pixel clock and has various speeds i notice that it outputs a mhz clock can this output be used on an amiga system and must it be ntsc vga or can it be ntsc ntsc any simple circuits to boost an ntsc to a vga signal need to genlock a laser disc to my khz video john flux inqmind bison mb ca the inquiring mind bbs winnipeg manitoba
sci.electronics	free eprom eraser pcb exposer twin cities collect this inelegant device started life as a watt security lamp until i smashed off the outer glass to liberate the nasty rays it works a treat weighs a heap due to the ballast and no i wont ship it cheers mike
sci.electronics	re cable tvi interference if i remember rightly there is a pulsating set of tones piped thru the catv systems somewheres near the fm broadcast band and that the cable company trucks listen for this as they roam around town if you can hear it over the air and not cable
sci.electronics	help wanted pinouts of oki rtc can anybody send me pinouts of real time clock ic of oki semiconductors i wish to know if any rtc ic of oki has an inbuilt crystal rather than an external khz crystal thanks in advance nilesh parikh nilesh shakti ncst ernet in
sci.electronics	programming motorola xc hc p has anyone successfully programmed this beast using the bootloader pgm with the circuit described in the little green handbook pg dan adrian blockley i may say something profound environmental science here one day murdoch university western australia blockley essun murdoch edu au phone
sci.electronics	re silver solder in article aa dec a shiekh ictp trieste it andy shiekh writes i have seen the existance of electronics solder with a silver content that seems to have good wetting and fatique reatings can anyone tell me why it is not used silver is not such an expensive metal from management of electronics assembly ian oakes after talking about tin lead alloy and the eutectic point occasionally impurities may be added to solder to vary charactersitics within the soldering process in an attempt to improve performance for example addition of small quantities of antimony and copper can reduce the amount solder moves under stress when solid for particular applications additions of impurities may be warranted but in general it is best to keep the solder used in a soldering process as pure as possible i guess this is the good oil for commercial operations but it doesn t mention anything esoteric leon
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive from article apr csi jpl nasa gov by eldred rrunner jpl nasa gov dan eldred in article rh b inn r snoopy cis ufl edu ruck beach cis ufl edu john ruckstuhl writes i know this is a long shot but does anyone know what solvent i should use to clean duct tape adhesive from carpet someone taped wires to the carpet and now it is time to move out i don t know for sure that this will work but you might try mek methyl ethyl keytone it worked getting the stickum left over from shelf paper and is available at paint stores use a carbon gas mask and lots of ventilation this stuff really stinks dan for those who don t know methyl ethyl ketone is more commonly known as acetone and can be found as the major active ingredient in nail polish remover your wife s probably got some hangin around
sci.electronics	pc parallel i i o i m trying to bring in bits to a pc and would like to use interrupt driven routines without buying an io board or making a new port where can i bring in these bits lpt seems to have only a few inputs but i ve heard rumours that some lpts have bidirectional lines anybody know fer sure if any bi d lpts which boards have them i ll be running a new dx alan erickson erickson baltic nmt edu to all sunrayce competitors i hope you re getting about as much sleep as i am
sci.electronics	help needed with light dependent resistor devices ldrs can some kind soul provide me with information on ldrs that contain an onboard light source in a totally integrated and light shielded unit i have seen a vtl c ldr in some schematics so who are the manufacturers of these devices and what are the different types thanks very much in advance jim jim trivellas department of electrical electronic engineering school of information technology electrical engineering the university of melbourne parkville victoria australia telephone email jimt mullian ee mu oz au hello is that the front desk allan holdsworth the spid
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days i sent a baud modem to a cousin in greece from the u s and it is working fine for him it also worked for me in u s jim james tsillas jtsilla damon ccs northeastern edu work home he is after me jim is after him hop on pop dr seuss
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days in lhe apr yang sics se lhe sics se lars henrik eriksson writes most if not virtually all swedish exchanges can handle tone dialling many older electromechanical exchanges have been modified accept tone dialling i would not be suprised if the equipment is compatible in fact new york telephone nynex spend a lot of money on swedish switching equipment recently lars henrik eriksson internet lhe sics se you can guess what brand of equipment i refer to michael in this land said the god who seeks shall find who sits with folded hands or sleeps is blind sophocles
sci.electronics	re power signal surges in home i wrote bit of it you could take the tape over to a local ham operator s house and ask him for his opinion of what you re hearing most communities you cannot do that legally however you can ask a ham over to listen if the interference occurs at a specific time each day then it would be possible to do such scheduling if nothing else you could invite the ham over to transmit from your driveway to see if he interferes if he does then you probably need to have your equipment worked on to make it immune to rf interference as a coupld of people have pointed out this is wrong it is not illegal to record or disclose what you heard on the ham bands bill
sci.electronics	re power signal surges in home galen picea cfnr colostate edu galen watts writes why can t he record it legally it may not be admissable in court but recording for personal use is legal if he wants to play it for his ham friend that s legal too as long as he doesn t charge admission yeah i goofed a slip of the mind i must be getting senile deleted hey bill where were you three weeks ago when all this stuff was posted and dealt with busy posting on about other groups i get to this one about once every three months or so bill
sci.electronics	re long distance ir detection in article apr ennews eas asu edu gsulliva enuxha eas asu edu glenn a sullivan writes i designed and built hardware in that would output a logic level from a tone detector upon detecting a microwatt led feet away used a motorola mrd biased linearly in a dc feedback loop to servo out variations in sunlight and hz from lights used no lenses allen sullivan i would be interested in knowing more about the sensing hardware what did you use for the detector could you detect the angle of location or did the system simply respond to the presence of the transmitter in the sensors field of view
sci.electronics	re removing battery corrosion in article apr uvm edu me pjd emba news uvm edu uucp peter j demko writes from article apr princeton edu by fuchs tsar princeton edu ira h fuchs is there a readily available solvent that does a good job at removing the corrosion encrustation that collects on the battery terminals usually the cathode when using alkaline batteries or more accurately when not using them for a long time generally the corrosion is a signal that it s time to send them of to the recyclers but if you re that desperate or cheap try baking soda and a wire brush use gloves and goggles please sorry i meant the terminals in the device not on the batteries which are obviously quite dead
sci.electronics	wanted source for tuning capacitors hello there the other day i was feeling a tad nostalgic and thought about constructing an old time crytal radio set i figured on substituting a modern germanium diode for the crystal and winding the antenna coil etc myself the only problem i seem to have is in locating a source for a tuning capacitor you know the old meshed plate variable condensers which used to be the mainstay for tuning circuits well these things seem to be all but extinct in their original catalog habitats trimmer capacitors are relatively abundant but are not really suitable for this application so can anyone point me to a supplier of tuning capacitors in the pf range manythanks greg neill ounce ouns n the standard unit of hnsx supercomputers inc prevention equal to one pound of cure gneill cid aes doe ca
sci.electronics	filter design software for ibm pc has anyone got an active filter design program that runs on an ibm pc something that will easily let me specify bandpass filter parameters and it will give me the appropriate component values it has to be public domain if anyone has one could you mail it to me thanks in advance scott u wraith cs uow edu au p s it can run under windows if necessary
sci.electronics	re why circuit boards are green in article apr mala bc ca wagner mala bc ca tom wagner wizzard of old audio visual equipment nanaimo campus writes the color of the board shows the composition of it hence the use of it original and older boards were bakelite composition and were brown phenolic spelling was a tan most non filled fiberglass boards used in computers are green filled fiberglass is blue teflon is white rubbish the reason for the colour of the boards depends on the solder mask that is used older boards bakelite and phenolic rarely used a solder mask these boards are not suited well to automatic stuffing and soldering techniques and hence are the colour of the compound used to make them these days boards are made of fibreglass for most general purpose uses and have a solder mask applied to them to prevent close traces shorting to one another during soldering and also to prevent the decomposition of traces under harsh environments the light and dark green boards ofter seen have a dry film mask applied to them usually applied as a complete film photographically produced the blue and red or orange boards are a two part epoxy or a liquid imageable resist formulation and are applied in a different manner there s a lot of info about the pro s and con s of each but that s another story sla n go fo ill risky b geoff swan research development swanee mega com au megadata pty ltd waterloo rd north ryde nsw australia v fax
sci.electronics	re pc parallel i i o erickson azure nmt edu alan erickson writes i m trying to bring in bits to a pc and would like to use interrupt driven routines without buying an io board or making a new port where can i bring in these bits lpt seems to have only a few inputs but i ve heard rumours that some lpts have bidirectional lines anybody know fer sure if any bi d lpts which boards have them i ll be running a new dx yes it is possible i m making a stepper controller board with digital inputs and up to digital outputs from the port one main thing that will tell you whether the port is bi directional or not is the bus tranceiver on it look for a chip numbered ls if you don t have this then it s probably a ls which will do you no good for reading in now if you do have the then do the following first find the address of the port decimal either or in pascal you would write port xxx where xxx is the address in either hex or decimal the status lines pins as well as the strobe pin are bi directional lines and are read by base address so for to read from status then read from you can also output to these lines in the same fashion as to the data lines in pascal do port xxx value hope this helps let me know if you need more help inspiration comes to o baden sys bison mb ca those who baden inqmind bison mb ca seek the baden de bari unknown
sci.electronics	fax machine scanners to mono computer scanners i was wondering since i ve got a few fax machine scanners intact if they could be integrated to the pc environment as a mono scanner if so where to start thanks inspiration comes to o baden sys bison mb ca those who baden inqmind bison mb ca seek the baden de bari unknown
sci.electronics	phosphorescent pads a while ago i saw some translucent pads about x or so that could be plugged into something and they would glow one was red another green another blue interresting i was wondering if anyone would have a feed on anything of this nature and of the price oh the pads were rubber like and were floppy like about cm thick or so thanks inspiration comes to o baden sys bison mb ca those who baden inqmind bison mb ca seek the baden de bari unknown
sci.electronics	wanting p s if anyone would have a low quantity distributer for these little beasts p by motorola please let me know baden de bari baden sys bison mb ca o o baden inqmind bison mb ca true life can only be experianced by those who do not fear death
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu gvolk nyx cs du edu greg volk writes what i usually use and this stuff is only good on glass is either acetone or a little benzene the latter of the two is a bit dangerous possibly a carcinogen sp but it usualy gets the job done i imagine you can you the two solvents on most metals as well as glass but keep the stuff away from plastic benzene is most definitely a carcinogen if you can get your hands on it don t use it michael brown csulo csv warwick ac uk mjb dcs warwick ac uk lost interest it s so bad i ve lost apathy
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive in article apr uvm edu me pjd emba news uvm edu uucp peter j demko writes from article apr csi jpl nasa gov by eldred rrunner jpl nasa gov dan eldred in article rh b inn r snoopy cis ufl edu ruck beach cis ufl edu john ruckstuhl writes i know this is a long shot but does anyone know what solvent i should use to clean duct tape adhesive from carpet someone taped wires to the carpet and now it is time to move out i don t know for sure that this will work but you might try mek methyl ethyl keytone it worked getting the stickum left over from shelf paper and is available at paint stores use a carbon gas mask and lots of ventilation this stuff really stinks dan for those who don t know methyl ethyl ketone is more commonly known as acetone and can be found as the major active ingredient in nail polish remover your wife s probably got some hangin around oh dear time for me to try to remember my chemistry let s see if i can find the formulae somewhere in the dim recesses of my mind sounds of gears fumes of overheated oil unmistakable stench of the nasal chromatograph ha i knew there was a double bond now how shall i show that in ascii mek acetone c c c c c c c o o the hydrogens are not shown and represents double bond mek has a methyl ch on one side and an ethyl c h on the other acetone has two methyls so acetone is not methyl ethyl ketone but instead is dimethyl ketone both solvents have similar properties i think that mek may be a little less flammable but a lot worse to breathe it s a lot harder to buy mek than it once was use acetone nail polish remover consists almost entirely of acetone if you buy some for your workshop get the very cheapest because the more expensive kind has oils and perfumes that you don t need nothing is so foolish that it has not been posted to some net newsgroup peter neilson neilson osf org quote changed daily if you ve seen this one before burn your calendar
sci.electronics	card phones can you help me to understand how a cardphone operates and how the values are stored on the phonecard thanx
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days in article rh einnfce shelley u washington edu kniha carson u washington edu dagmar amtmann writes there is a wire without any jack at the end sticking out of the wall so you need to connect the wires i m not sure if they have wall jacks in western europe they may son of the return of the how much does americans know about the rest of the word flamewar anyone bertil it can be shown that for any nutty theory beyond the fringe political view or strange religion there exists a proponent on the net the proof is left as an exercise for your kill file
sci.electronics	re references for any ic in a previous article ree zach fit edu keith ledig writes i am looking for a text reference that will include pinouts description and functionality for just about any ic made you can find cross reference to almost any ic or discrete semiconductor in philips ecg semiconductors master replacement guide especially industrial commercial and entertainment but not specialised or military francois
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days in article c xu gwq news chalmers se d bertil dtek chalmers se bertil jonell writes in article rh einnfce shelley u washington edu kniha carson u washington edu dagmar amtmann writes there is a wire without any jack at the end sticking out of the wall so you need to connect the wires i m not sure if they have wall jacks in western europe they may son of the return of the how much does americans know about the rest of the word flamewar anyone we re doing that one in s c british at the moment
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive on benzene and acetone not only is benzene a carcinogen it is adsorbed through the skin and cause cumulative damage to the bone marrow which is essential to the production of your blood cells it is highly toxic one exposure is unlikely to kill you but it will likely do hidden damage benzene is one compound that chemists try like hell to avoid using acetone is much less toxic but is highly flammable and volatile it also dissolves lots of things so handle with great care jonathan g harris department of chemical engineering mit rm ames street cambridge ma harris athena mit edu fax
sci.electronics	hd tv sound systems i would like to get some information on the current systems used for hd tv sound systems thanks
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive acetone will likely damage the carpet first solvent to try is denatured alcohol do not waste your time with rubbing alcohol you can use methyl alcohol instead of denatured alcohol if you want to have a cocktail while you are removing the goo use pure grain alcohol if the alcohol does not work try carbon tetrachloride if neither of these work you may need to try a stronger solvent but the alcohol works for most adhesives good luck jim
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days d bertil dtek chalmers se bertil jonell writes in article rh einnfce shelley u washington edu kniha carson u washington edu dagmar amtmann writes there is a wire without any jack at the end sticking out of the wall so you need to connect the wires i m not sure if they have wall jacks in western europe they may son of the return of the how much does americans know about the rest of the word flamewar anyone well bertil you might laugh but in many places here in austria there are no wall jacks yet either just wires sticking out of the wall and put into a closed often sealed box as far as i remember from germany it is a nicely mixed situation somebody had wires sticking somebody had jacks on the other hand everywhere in bohemia i have seen wall jacks and never seen just wires sticking out of the wall and i thought slovakia was the same case well how much do scandinavians know about the rest of europe tom tomas kovar alcatel austria forschungszentrum g m b h a wien ruthnergasse tel fax e mail tom kovar rcvie co at
sci.electronics	re silver solder shiekh ictp trieste it andy shiekh writes i have seen the existance of electronics solder with a silver content that seems to have good wetting and fatique reatings can anyone tell me why it is not used silver is not such an expensive metal this is called silver bearing solder it is used to solder to devices that have silvered contacts one application is soldering to the ceramic terminal strips used in the old tektronix scopes these were notched ceramic strips that were silver plated in the notches if you used ordinary solder the molten metal would disolve the silver off of the ceramic the silver was quite thin the is a saturated solution of silver in tin and lead thus no more silver can be disolved in the solder solution other devices that use silver contacts are quartz crystals and ultrasonic transducers peter reilley pvr wiis wang com ka lat for info on beav binary editor and viewer finger pvr das wang com well that about says it
sci.electronics	correction to harris s answerfax phone number h h a rrrrr rrrrr iiiii ssss h h a a r r r r i s hhhhhh aaaaa rrrrr rrrrr i ssss h h a a r r r r i s h h a a r r r r iiiii ssss harris semiconductor now has answerfax answerfax is on line hours a day days a week so you can instantly receive datasheets and application notes by using your touch tone telephone and fax machine the number to call is it is not set up to do international calls at this time the general decision tree for the answerfax is as follows the numbers are the available selections welcome to harris semiconductors answerfax select if you select for an are familiar with explanation of answerfax answerfax select to order select for a a document the list of catalogs document list is new products in the catalogs linear products get them first data acquisition products digital signal processing products discrete power and intelligent power products application notes select appropriate document select appropriate catalog do you want to order do you want to order anything else if yes anything else if yes you will be taken back you will be taken back to the selection decision to the selection decision what is phone number for your fax what is your name request the instructions end bill werner bill werner wwerner hsscam mis semi harris com harris semiconductor wwerner thor mlb semi harris com melbourne florida life is but a candle and a dream will give it flame rush caress of steel
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days d bertil dtek chalmers se bertil jonell writes son of the return of the how much does americans know about the rest of the word flamewar anyone let s save some bandwidth skip the intermediate articles and go straight to the nazis and hitler we do have wall sockets thank you and they re better than yours segmented memory helps structure software
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article ra hrinn ni dolphin zoo cs yale edu stone andy cs yale edu andy stone writes subject re how to the disks copy protected i wrote a commercial program called game maker can you guess what it does what we do is have a document protect answer question on page x line y which is a real pain we also allow the user to register by sending in a card and computing a based on their name the system works in that we ve gotten lots of registration cards i hear that the program has been cracked though someone two people actually called up my support one with a question the other wanting to buy our graphics libraries right anyway if anyone wants to help me catch a cracker and has the cracked version mail me i won t accuse you unless you re the cracker of course i know of at least one ftp site from which you can download the cracks of about any commercial game in existence the names of the companies yes companies are also blatantly advertised with the crack codes according to them it is not illegal at least in the usa according to a statute or something to remove the copy protection from any program the only condition is that you may only use this code on legally owned software for your own convenience if there is any interest i will download the advertisement of one such company i will not give the name of this ftp site to anyone even if only to protect the companies which wrote the original games disclaimer i do not condone the use or cracking of any programs i believe it hurts the industry and individuals in the long run on the subject of copy protection most pirates don t give a damn about using software on which the name of the registered owner came up on starting the program they just don t have a conscience gerrit
sci.electronics	re fm transmitter ics help in article apr vd seqeb gov au writes i am trying to design a small mw mhz fm transmitter for remote alarm use pretty high frequency for one chip is there an fm transmitter ic available that can be used for this purpose any help circuits info etc will be greatfully accepted please reply to bsc graham seqeb gov au yes and no i would use the fm transmitter chip from motorola linear and interface databook a stable cristal oscillator and a mixer e g sbl from mini circuits lab everything is done in the fm chip and then mixed up with the oscillator frequency just have a look at the arrl handbook there are lots of ideas in there about oscillators and mixing i don t think there are single chip designs for such high frequencies yet thanks in advance graham castledine cheers robert hb nby robert ganter universitaet basel i am a fan institut fuer informatik of my plan basel switzerland ganter ifi unibas ch amateurradio hb nby packet hb nby hb eas che eu
sci.electronics	re solvent for duck tape adhesive if you want to try a non toxic solvent there s one made of citrus that works very well and doesn t take your skin off in the process one brand name i ve used is citra solve but there are others too
sci.electronics	looking for a good book on pspice i just got a copy of spice i would like to know if there are any published books on the market yet and where i could get one i would appreciate any help thank you neil gandler
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive in article rh b inn r snoopy cis ufl edu ruck beach cis ufl edu john ruckstuhl writes i know this is a long shot but does anyone know what solvent i should use to clean duct tape adhesive from carpet yet another suggestion but this one is non toxic although i would handle it like any other cleaner and it smells nice the chemical is called d limonene and it smells like lemon peels i think it is a lemon extract of some kind you might find it in a hardware store sold as a general purpose solvent but your best bet would be any bike store it is used as a chain cleaning fluid it works on sticker glue crayons grease oil etc it s clear yellow in the bottle and you can use it straight if you add water it changes to a creamy consistency which is good for some jobs peter
sci.electronics	acceleration sensor does anyone know of any type of acceleration sensor that has an electrical output of any sort it would only have to sense acceleration in one direction thanx mike michael deaddio mts work hard play hard bell communication research the only problem is that deaddio thumper bellcore com playing hard makes working harder mre q
sci.electronics	old schematics wonder if anyone would know where or if i could find the schematic for the old timex sinclare sp computer or even a pin out on the expansion bus thanks in advance ian nelson inelson ucf vm cc ucf edu
sci.electronics	disk drive read write i am working on a project and am in need of information regarding the currents at the head needed to write to a hard drive and the currents produced when reading if anyone has information it would be much appreciated mcole nmsu edu
sci.electronics	re acceleration sensor in article apr walter bellcore com deaddio ski bellcore com michael deaddio writes does anyone know of any type of acceleration sensor that has an electrical output of any sort it would only have to sense acceleration in one direction gee how about an ahem accelerometer such devices are available from a variety of sources one that comes to mind is bruel kjaer if you have a lot of money to spend most of these sorts of devices output a voltage proportional to acceleration you need to know what range you re talking about though dick pierce loudspeaker and software consulting sartelle street pepperell ma voice and fax
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive in article almaden ibm com jmichael vnet ibm com writes from jmichael vnet ibm com date tue apr edt subject re solvent for duct tape adhesive you are removing the goo use pure grain alcohol if the alcohol does not work try carbon tetrachloride if neither of these work you may need to do not heat the ccl it makes phosgene gas of ww i poison gas fame remember when they used carbon tet in fire extinguishers yes i know i was yelling wex
sci.electronics	hp cd manual the cd is one of three oscillators that hp made many years ago the others were the low frequency oscillator and the wide range oscillator these are the ones with the diameter chrome dial a wein bridge circuit that used pilot lights as the feedback loop and firebottles that produced many volts of output i ve just acquired a pair of these venerable old beasts the non working one sn owned by crosley radio at one point needs help i know i can likely buy a microfiche copy of the book from hp but that costs and considering i paid a dollar for the pair in the rain at the dayton hamvention does anyone have such a book they could copy parts of for me thank you
sci.electronics	re why circuit boards are green in sci electronics swanee megadata mega oz au geoff swan writes rubbish the reason for the colour of the boards depends on the solder the may cover of qst has a picture of three different boards without any solder mask you can tell from the copper colored traces the box labeled transverter has the brown teflon glass board while the one in the center has the grayish board exposed on the left is some fiberglass board that looks green to me i see no reason for putting solder mask on circuit board used for box covers i wonder if any manufacturer actually puts a solder mask on their low noise microwave preamps often microwave circuits have odd bits of wire foil metal attached to wherever whatever is necessary to make the unit work properly this is a commercial product a solder mask would certainly make doing this tougher never mind the finding something that minimally degrades the circuits q dope for coils does not improve the q it just holds things together with minimal loss zack lau kh cp internet zlau arrl org working on ghz ssb cw gear operating interests ghz cw ssb fm us mail c o arrl lab cw main street station capability qrp mhz to ghz newington ct modes cw ssb fm packet amtor baudot phone if you really have to zack lau kh cp internet zlau arrl org working on ghz ssb cw gear operating interests ghz cw ssb fm us mail c o arrl lab cw main street station capability qrp mhz to ghz newington ct modes cw ssb fm packet amtor baudot phone if you really have to mask that is used older boards bakelite and phenolic rarely used a solder mask these boards are not suited well to automatic stuffing and soldering techniques and hence are the colour of the compound used to make them these days boards are made of fibreglass for most general purpose uses and have a solder mask applied to them to prevent close traces shorting to one another during soldering and also to prevent the decomposition of traces under harsh environments the light and dark green boards ofter seen have a dry film mask applied to them usually applied as a complete film photographically produced the blue and red or orange boards are a two part epoxy or a liquid imageable resist formulation and are applied in a different manner there s a lot of info about the pro s and con s of each but that s another story sla n go fo ill risky b geoff swan research development swanee mega com au megadata pty ltd waterloo rd north ryde nsw australia v fax
sci.electronics	re pc parallel i i o from article apr nmt edu by erickson azure nmt edu alan erickson i m trying to bring in bits to a pc and would like to use interrupt driven routines without buying an io board or making a new port where can i bring in these bits lpt seems to have only a few inputs but i ve heard rumours that some lpts have bidirectional lines anybody know fer sure if any bi d lpts which boards have them i ll be running a new dx alan erickson erickson baltic nmt edu to all sunrayce competitors i hope you re getting about as much sleep as i am i m watching one being built right here at uvm and the team is shaggin it these days me pjd uvm edu
sci.electronics	re pc parallel i i o from article qekn b w w sys bison mb ca by baden sys bison mb ca baden de bari erickson azure nmt edu alan erickson writes i m trying to bring in bits to a pc and would like to use interrupt driven routines without buying an io board or making a new port where can i bring in these bits lpt seems to have only a few inputs but i ve heard rumours that some lpts have bidirectional lines anybody know fer sure if any bi d lpts which boards have them i ll be running a new dx yes it is possible i m making a stepper controller board with digital inputs and up to digital outputs from the port one main thing that will tell you whether the port is bi directional or not is the bus tranceiver on it look for a chip numbered ls if you don t have this then it s probably a ls which will do you no good for reading in now if you do have the then do the following first find the address of the port decimal either or in pascal you would write port xxx where xxx is the address in either hex or decimal the status lines pins as well as the strobe pin are bi directional lines and are read by base address so for to read from status then read from you can also output to these lines in the same fashion as to the data lines in pascal do port xxx value hope this helps let me know if you need more help inspiration comes to o baden sys bison mb ca those who baden inqmind bison mb ca seek the baden de bari unknown as it happens you ve helped me quite a bit i m considering building a very similar device just for something to do this summer the idea is to code the output bits into multiple bit current amplified output channels software will handle the way the amplified outputs are manipulated so that this magic box can handle more applications than just stepper motors also looking for a robot arm cheap to attach this box to so i can wow and impress my friends any hints peter j demko me pjd uvm edu
sci.electronics	re phosphorescent pads baden sys bison mb ca baden de bari writes a while ago i saw some translucent pads about x or so that could be plugged into something and they would glow one was red another green another blue interresting i was wondering if anyone would have a feed on anything of this nature and of the price oh the pads were rubber like and were floppy like about cm thick or so the curiosities that you speak of are el electro luminescent pads they are mostly used as backlights for lcd s and as you pointed out comes in several different colors many of them emit white ish colors true white and blue whiteis blue are the ones that i ve personally encountered the most often they vary in their input requirements however they tend to operate at about vrms and at much higher than hz hz to khz if i recall correctly you can get them to work at vrms hz i e line but they don t glow as brightly and they will degrade much faster oh yes almost forgot el s have this tendency to wear out over time joseph chiu josephc cco caltech edu os you gotta get this thing msc caltech pasadena ca dear ibm hire bunch of technically incompetent people like my brother to test os installation procedures
sci.electronics	pressure zone microphones i remember back before commercial mikes with the pzm label for pressure zone microphone started showing up i read an article in some engineering journal that described the principles involved all the physics aside from a practicle standpoint the author s said they built a prototype with nothing more than a small sony lavelier mike laid up against a large aluminum disk in demonstrating it at a presentation to audio engineers this was impressive enough that the people present were bugging them about where they could buy them anyway i want to build some to use as choir mikes wide coverage i ve had good luck using some small electret mike elements i got from digi key most of these are limited bandwidth peakey units but for a buck or two more i got the ones spec d to go out to khz with a bit flatter response the distance of the mike opening from the flat plate is kind of critical i m debating whether to mount it on it s side which puts the opening a shade under mm from the plate or mounting it with the opening actually pointing down into the plate at a small clearance i haven t dissected a unit like you can buy at radio shack to see how they do it thoughts paul marxhausen university of nebraska lincoln grace happens
sci.electronics	spice for xt with no co processer i want to run spice on my xt so i can learn more about amplifiers and oscilators is there a version of this that will run on my xt with no math co processer if so where can i get it thanks for any and all help jeff jeff jones ab mb oppose the north american free trade agreement jeffj seeker mystic com canada usa free trade cost canada jobs infolinc bbs want to guess how many we ll lose to mexico
sci.electronics	re pc parallel i i o erickson azure nmt edu alan erickson writes i m trying to bring in bits to a pc and would like to use interrupt driven routines without buying an io board or making a new port where can i bring in these bits lpt seems to have only a few inputs but i ve heard rumours that some lpts have bidirectional lines anybody know fer sure if any bi d lpts which boards have them i ll be running a new dx i know for sure that the everex magic i o ev a can be jumpered for a printer mode or for a general purpose bidirectional i o mode also i know for sure that the ibm technical reference says the following about the monochrome display printer adapter and the ibm parallel printer adapter it is essential that the external device not try to pull these lines referring to the data lines to ground and later if an external device should be driving data on these pins in violation of usage ground rules at the time of an input this data will be or ed with the latch contents i will accept no responsibility if you incur damages of any kind as a result of my saying i do not know for sure but i think you should be able to use a traditional parallel port as an input port by writing x to the data lines and then reading from the data lines while an external device drives them the input data will not be latched so noise could make this infeasible todd
sci.electronics	re why circuit boards are green in article apr mega com au swanee megadata mega oz au geoff swan writes in article apr mala bc ca wagner mala bc ca tom wagner wizzard of old audio visual equipment nanaimo campus writes the color of the board shows the composition of it hence the use of it original and older boards were bakelite composition and were brown phenolic spelling was a tan most non filled fiberglass boards used in computers are green filled fiberglass is blue teflon is white rubbish the reason for the colour of the boards depends on the solder mask that is used older boards bakelite and phenolic rarely used a solder mask these boards are not suited well to automatic stuffing and soldering techniques and hence are the colour of the compound used to make them these days boards are made of fibreglass for most general purpose uses and have a solder mask applied to them to prevent close traces shorting to one another during soldering and also to prevent the decomposition of traces under harsh environments the light and dark green boards ofter seen have a dry film mask applied to them usually applied as a complete film photographically produced the blue and red or orange boards are a two part epoxy or a liquid imageable resist formulation and are applied in a different manner there s a lot of info about the pro s and con s of each but that s another story sla n go fo ill risky b geoff swan research development swanee mega com au megadata pty ltd waterloo rd north ryde nsw australia v fax sorry geoff agree solder mask is green but in the old days we didn t have wave soldering machines which are another topic again i had a crew of a dozen ladies which could stuff and hand solder a board like lightning board under the mask was the original query btw cheap inport electronic devices mainly from rd world countries are done with brown pheonolic boards is seems the electronics industry has discovered the cheap labor pools workers are paid by the board to assemble circuits at home they are very obviously hand soldered quite a few tape recorders are being brought into canada from red china in china there is no warranty for the equipment other than if you plug it in and it works it s yours one of my co workers spent a year there and he said the failure rate out of the box was almost also the original method for making printed with conductive ink on a regular printing press an old lithographer friend had a press for this after the etching method was developed he used the press to print wood grain on doors tom tom wagner audio visual technician malaspina college nanaimo british columbia loc fax callsign ve gda weapon kentucky rifle snail mail to site q c rr nanaimo british columbia canada v r x i do not recyle i keep everything all standard disclaimers apply
sci.electronics	and now serious e magazine for some time i ve been thinking about the possiblity of starting a group where scientific articles can be published or perhaps just summaries possible advantages would be free disribution fast acceptance online discussion between authers and readers this would be possible with one group with a moderator for publishing the articles and one perhaps without for discussion the best thing would be if all the articles would be in a standard format which would make it possible to print or view the documents camera ready perhaps postscript or rich text format but how do you start a new group anyone interrested greeting from ferrie electronics research laboratory delft university of technology delft holland
sci.electronics	re cleaning electronic equipment in article adrian tasman adrian tasman cc utas edu au adrian lewis writes just a quick question what standard lab solvents can be used to clean electronic equipment and components safely ie not corrode dissolve short out etc the equipment water methanol ccl you don t say what kind of electronic equipment you mean it s hard to give a generic answer there is essentially no solvent that won t do things like washing lubricant out of switches when we ve needed to do an emergency cleaning job on things we ve just used distilled water the key thing to remember is to make sure the gear is completely dry before powering it up again we let it dry for several days to be damn sure i doubt that methanol has significant advantages over water i would be very wary of ccl not least because it is dangerous to you even if it s not going to harm the equipment not only is it poisonous but i believe it s now known to be carcinogenic svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.electronics	re acceleration sensor in article apr walter bellcore com deaddio ski bellcore com michael deaddio writes does anyone know of any type of acceleration sensor that has an electrical output of any sort it would only have to sense acceleration in one direction thanx mike michael deaddio mts work hard play hard bell communication research the only problem is that deaddio thumper bellcore com playing hard makes working harder mre q setra systems nagog park acton ma ph schaevitz engineering us rt union ave pennsauken nj ph accelerometers are not cheap mainly because the outputs are fairly linear with respect to acceleration you don t say what the range of acceleration you want to measure is and there are other ways in which to measure it other than using an accelerometer additional information would be helpful to anyone who may respond call if you wish
sci.electronics	re why circuit boards are green ulan ee ualberta ca dale ulan writes kuusama kaarne cs tut fi kuusama juha vtt writes not that the question is anything important but i am still curious why is that almost all printed circuit boards are green i have seen a few blue ones but no red yellow company logo etc is there a technical reason or could it be that the marketing geniuses have not tought about it yet it s possible to make boards in other colors and i have an ad for laser light show equipment which offers the circuit boards in your choice of day glo tm colors the usual light green color is just the natural color of fiberglas the dark green or blue is the solder mask layer and i suspect that color is a dye john nagle
sci.electronics	re pressure zone microphones in article rjobdinnk s crcnis unl edu mpaul unl edu marxhausen paul writes i remember back before commercial mikes with the pzm label for pressure zone microphone started showing up i read an article in some engineering journal that described the principles involved all the physics aside from a practicle standpoint the author s said they built a prototype with nothing more than a small sony lavelier mike laid up against a large aluminum disk in demonstrating it at a presentation to audio engineers this was impressive enough that the people present were bugging them about where they could buy them yup it s not all that difficult to do anyway i want to build some to use as choir mikes wide coverage i ve had good luck using some small electret mike elements i got from digi key most of these are limited bandwidth peakey units but for a buck or two more i got the ones spec d to go out to khz with a bit flatter response the panasonic cartridges aren t bad but they aren t spectacular the distance of the mike opening from the flat plate is kind of critical i m debating whether to mount it on it s side which puts the opening a shade under mm from the plate or mounting it with the opening actually pointing down into the plate at a small clearance i haven t dissected a unit like you can buy at radio shack to see how they do it thoughts don t mount it on the side call up crown the company that has the patent on the pzm and ask them for information on construction and use of the things you may have to determine the correct spacing emperically with a noise source and a spectrum analyzer because the design of the panasonic cartridges uses a tuned cavity in front of the electret element to increase the high frequency response and you are going to be altering the resistance through the cavity entrance crown has a nice book on the subject though it s unfortunately rather short on mathematics there s a jaes article from many years back too still for your application you ll be a lot better off buying the cheap radio shack models and using phil rastoczny s modifications to get a clean balanced output phil s mods seem to get reposted here on a regular basis scott
sci.electronics	re picking up cable tv with an aerial in article apr mav com toddi mav com todd inch writes in article apr wcsub ctstateu edu ritterbus wcsub ctstateu edu writes regarding pointing an antenna at a leaky catv cable wow what a concept does anybody want to speculate on how this non connection would fit into the theft of cable services laws it seems to me that unless this case is specifically written into the legislation that the cable company would not have a leg to stand upon in court well the catv company in the us is accountable to the fcc for how much transmission their cables make in fact i ve heard first hand about how the catv company asked to inspect the wiring in a home business to find the source of rf leaks i ve heard many of their vans have rf detectors and they keep one eye on them as they drive down the street if the cable is leaky enough to have usable signal i would guess that they re probably in violation of fcc transmission laws in england they do did require permits to operate a tv supposedly the tv police drove around with rf detectors looking for the if or whatever produced by a receiver that wasn t registered i m guessing the purpose was just something else they could get away with taxing i don t know if the tv police were are just urban legend or an actuality the tv police are still with us i m afraid a pound fine goes out to the unlicensed users if caught
sci.electronics	re picking up cable tv with an aerial in article apr mav com toddi mav com todd inch writes in england they do did require permits to operate a tv supposedly the tv police drove around with rf detectors looking for the if or whatever produced by a receiver that wasn t registered i m guessing the purpose was just something else they could get away with taxing i don t know if the tv police were are just urban legend or an actuality they are real and we still pay licence fees to receive tv the detector vans pick up the if true this tells them what channel you are watching the can also pick up the line time base freq and frame rate try it with a lw mw radio near telly it picks up a sharp hum from this they can even watch poor quality though what you have on the screen by picking up re radiating junk michael brown csulo csv warwick ac uk mjb dcs warwick ac uk lost interest it s so bad i ve lost apathy
sci.electronics	re microcontroller questions for newcomer does anyone have recommendations on whether a smart data i o print spooler digital sampling etc would be better implemented with a dma chip or a dedicated microcontroller essentially what i am trying to decide is the best way to handle moving data from a port with automatic handshaking from or to a memory area that will be accessible by a main system processor when not in use by the smart data i o which dma or microcontroller chip would be best to use fast cheap and easy to obtain would be nice but i won t limit my choices to only those that fit those characteristics even an under would do what i want but i am sure there is a better alternative like a microcontroller with onchip e eprom so i essentially want to hear about all dma and microcontrollers that are simple to interface and will move data from one place to another while monitoring a few i o lines jeff white jhwhit ulkyvx louisville edu
sci.electronics	re and now serious e magazine ferry toth writes for some time i ve been thinking about the possiblity of starting a group where scientific articles can be published or perhaps just summaries possible advantages would be free disribution fast acceptance online discussion between authers and readers this would be possible with one group with a moderator for publishing the articles and one perhaps without for discussion the best thing would be if all the articles would be in a standard format which would make it possible to print or view the documents camera ready perhaps postscript or rich text format but how do you start a new group anyone interrested greeting from ferrie electronics research laboratory delft university of technology delft holland yep sounds good to me suggestion sci electronics art best regards wouter
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days in article rjq hinn je dns nmsu edu rpeter nmsu edu peter herman x writes in lhe apr yang sics se lhe sics se lars henrik eriksson writes i would not be suprised if the equipment is compatible in fact new york telephone nynex spend a lot of money on swedish switching equipment recently lars henrik eriksson internet lhe sics se you can guess what brand of equipment i refer to lars henrik will be pleased to know that his name is plastered all over phones at new mexico state university as well they got the contract when nmsu went to a digital phone system snip not quite correct the company name is ericsson with a c steve l
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive in article mprgate mpr ca vanderby mprgate mpr ca david vanderbyl writes lighter fluid is butane it s absolutely non toxic but is an extreme fire hazard you definately don t want to go splashing this stuff around use a little on an old rag butane a colourless flammable gaseous alkane non toxic it has some effects when you inhale allegedly which can t all be down to asphyxia imho steve l
sci.electronics	re acceleration sensor in article walter bellcore com deaddio ski bellcore com michael deaddio writes does anyone know of any type of acceleration sensor that has an electrical output of any sort it would only have to sense acceleration in one direction thanx mike i am not sure about this but i believe that analog devices in norwood ma makes a relatively inexpensive acceleration sensor primarily for use in auto air bag systems i do not know specs or anything else but you might give them a call to find out more info z syed zaeem hosain p o box z consulting group san jose ca szh zcon com
sci.electronics	re cad program for electronics in article r vqinnftu zephyr grace cri nz srgxnbs grace cri nz writes what i want the cad program to do is to draw diagrams by dragging elements onto the screen and in this the elements needed are as diverse as vacuum tubes to ics case with pins try draftchoice its not windows but its shareware and object oriented use it with printgl for high quality output bruce look for spice or pspice
sci.electronics	re looking for a good book on pspice in article c egz bg acsu buffalo edu v mb k ubvmsb cc buffalo edu neil b gandler writes i just got a copy of spice i would like to know if there are any published books on the market yet and where i could get one i would appreciate any help thank you neil gandler isbn
sci.electronics	re long distance ir detection jvannes vms macc wisc edu writes i designed and built hardware in that would output a logic level from a tone detector upon detecting a microwatt led feet away used a motorola mrd biased linearly in a dc feedback loop to servo out variations in sunlight and hz from lights used no lenses allen sullivan i would be interested in knowing more about the sensing hardware what did you use for the detector could you detect the angle of location or did the system simply respond to the presence of the transmitter in the sensors field of view phototransistor x x ne with kohm limiter feedback to base to control operating point i expect this really hurts noise figure any comments from phototransistor experts we intended to use this atop a stepper motor to provide headings to the beacons the plan was to have or beacons of different frequencies in each room and tell the what frequency to phase lock to we did not do so one challenge was that the available stepper had degree steps knowing the headings to each beacon we would have used the surveyor technique of resection to determine robot location no i ain t going to explain resection over the net given hindsight i would digitize the amplified output of the self nulling phototransistor circuit and correlate in phase quadrature square waves at the several expected frequencies to extract amplitude of each beacon by doing this at the numerous steps even with degree steps with knowledge of the angular response of the phototransistor you should be able to rather more accurately determine the heading to each beacon allen sullivan
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days in article wd apr sam cs tu berlin de wd cs tu berlin de wolfgang diestelkamp writes in article rg hinnsr darkstar ucsc edu hugo cats ucsc edu hugo calendar writes i m wondering if i can tote my american touch tone phone around with me to sweden and germany it s dc powered and i can buy a special adapter for that in europe the question is if the general electronics work the same i can buy a different wall plug and refit it i m sure i d have to but would that do the trick two things to watch for in germany and i think the same holds for sweden only some of the connections can handle tone dialing so make sure the phone can be set to pulse dialing in sweden the is the first digit and all other digits are pushed down by one position this makes dialing and in the process converting numbers an interesting task otherwise it is technically no problem to connect a foreign phone to either the german or swedish phone system otoh neither you nor i would ever try that as it is of course illegal as the phone uses dtmf dialing which by some magic all telecom operators seems to have agreed on this is a complete non issue i don t think there are any switches in sweden that can t handle dtmf dialing most switches are now digital and thoses that aren t have been retrofitted with magic fingers that converts from dtmf to pulse dialing thomas real life thomas t rnblom email thomas tornblom nexus comm se snail mail communicator nexus ab phone box fax s uppsala sweden
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days in article apr utkvx utk edu iturriag utkvx utk edu mr y writes i am not quite so sure about the illegality of using a regular american phone on your home system i vaguely remember a few years ago when deutsche bundespost split into postdienst postbank and telekom there was some discussion about a new regulation i know that cordless or cellular phones still have to be approved by the telekom but does that hold true for regular phones in my areacode in germany frechen near koeln you can use yes it does all the equipment has to have that telekom approval number to be legal what has changed is that you can buy the equipment somewhere else i m pretty sure the same holds true in sweden at least when i read some information on it about tweo years ago and btw i do know that most of the lines in sweden can handle tone dialing just don t be sure that all can wolfgang diestelkamp wd cs tu berlin de wolfgang first gmd de
sci.electronics	re ultrasonic pest repellers stories advice bunk etc in article babb larc sdsu edu babb sciences sdsu edu j babb writes re ultrasonic pest repelling devices the ones i ve seen use piezoelectric transducers driven by a khz swept oscillator is there evidence that insects are actually repelled by these devices can anybody cite gov t pubs or independent lab studies i saw another device that supposedly repels pests by altering the electro magnetic field of your house wiring i suppose they capacitively couple a hi freq signal to the ac wiring and this is supposed to repel pests how by magnestriction of the wiring i dont think so i ve been wondering about this myself the house wiring thing is really hokey there is no doubt that high pressure ultrasound is annoying but to whom given that these devices have been advertised to be effective against everything from insects to rodents to nasty dogs what is to say that my insect repeller won t just annnoy my dog and give me headaches could there be that much selectivity in frequencies have there been any studies on the effects of various pressure levels bands and sweep patterns on various life forms and how effective could they be i certainly would not want to tell anyone that they are safe from nasty dogs because they were carrying a piezoelectric buzzer jeff babb babb sciences sdsu edu babb ucssun sdsu edu programmer sdsu larc kurt a geisel snail quaker rd white pine software inc nashua nh arpa kurtg drycas club cc cmu edu bix kgeisel genie k geisel air n jtw i will not be pushed filed indexed stamped briefed debriefed or numbered the prisoner
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive another alternative is to cover the adhesive with another piece of duct tape then remove the tape if it still doesn t work try wd bqn in article c stk fok athena cs uga edu mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes in article stephens ngis stephens geod emr ca dave stephenson writes mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes i don t know for sure that this will work but you might try mek methyl ethyl keytone it worked getting the stickum left over from shelf paper etc if you use mek for your sake wear safty glasses or better still industrial goggles the small est drop in the eye will casue etc please watch those attributions it was not me that advocated using mek michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
sci.electronics	re passive mixer shaffer wendy yale edu wendy shaffer writes i m trying to build a mixer for a friend of mine to run several things into a single boom box i have a circuit that uses an op amp powered by either a couple of v batteries or using some kind of power supply but in a catalog i was looking at recently a passive mixer for guitar was advertised taht doesn t appear to use any power at all does anyone know what the circuit for this would be because then i could just adapt it for rca jacks and save my friend and i alot of messing with batteries and plugs thanks well the fastest crudest mixer aside from just physically connecting all your inputs together directly is to run each signal through a resistor to a common output the resistors give some isolation so the signal sources aren t driving directly into each other taking a wild seat of the pants guess i d say that if you are mixing high impedance sources like some dynamic mikes electric guitar pickups etc your resistors ought to be maybe k k or so if you are mixing line level stuff or the outputs of a walkman or such i d go with k input output input input paul marxhausen university of nebraska lincoln grace happens
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries part in article apr ulkyvx louisville edu jhwhit ulkyvx louisville edu writes in article apr mprgate mpr ca vanderby mprgate mpr ca david vanderbyl writes lots of stuff deleted the lead acid secondary cell discharge reaction is exothermic i am glad you do not dispute this point if you don t want the lead storage battery to discharge it should be stored such that its charged state is the equilibrium state during winter the ground be it covered with concrete dirt or wood maintains a cooler temperature on average than the surrounding air or the battery the heat capacity of air is less than that of concrete dirt or wood so it heats faster conversely air cools faster too the normal storage procedure for a battery is to leave it in an unheated garage or basement the storage surface is often cooler than the surrounding air with the battery temperature somewhere in between e g the basement air temperature may be f the floor temperature f and the battery temperature f the air temperature is higher than the battery temperature the heat of reaction is not going to move up the gradient the floor temperature is lower than the battery temperature and heat is going to move to it the floor is an incredible heat sink might depend on where you live i know locally for most of the winter the ground and concrete floor within sheds and garages unheated is signifacantly warmer than the average air temperature the air does get warmer during the day but during the night the ground and concrete is definitely warmer especially when protected by the walls from the albedo effect and the nights are longer by several hours than the days rest of quoted text deleted jeff white jhwhit ulkyvx louisville edu richard dell
sci.electronics	re microcontroller questions for newcomer acooney netcom com alan cooney writes discussion of motorola vs intel uc s in other words just add your favorite serial level converters mac folks can use the cheaper farther and faster rs drivers pc users get to suffer with rs and start using your project think about it how much software is out there for the mac i ve been interested in using microcontrollers in imbedded applications for a long time but was always under the impression that i would need an ibm to run the debug compile etc software i would like to use a or i m proficient in assembly but have never needed it except some toying with old evbs motorola doesn t seem to have any information on mac software at least their local distributor doesn t and the ele department around here has been of little help as well i hope someone can tell me that i don t have to buy an ibm to work with the or evaluation boards please send me mail andrew andrew reynhout cs uri edu if you remind me of my dog we ll probably get along jane siberry meow
sci.electronics	re how universal are phones these days in article apr chpc utexas edu michael chpc utexas edu writes does this imply the german tone dialing is compatible with the american one i know at least the british system is not it is supposedly close enough though that an american phone will work but my modem american has a special setting for british standards bzzzzzt wrong answer the uk tone dialling is identical to the us system the different settings on your modem are so that it uses ccitt v v tones for data transmission rather than bell bell tones which are used only in the usa and canada afaik as most people now use at least v bis this is largely irrelevant tony tony kidson pgp key by request voice morgan towers the cat has had to move now e mail in order morgan road as i ve had to take the top tony morgan demon co uk bromley off of the machine tny cix compulink co uk england br qe honda st dod compuserve com
sci.electronics	re wd as moisture repellant was lead acid batteries c i was a bit surprised that the manual for my fluke multimeter suggests applying wd to the test lead sockets especially the current range socket the intention is to prevent the test lead is in the wrong scocket beeper from going off when there is no test lead in that socket the manual is a bit vague but i think i d apply the wd to a swab then wipe the socket instead of spaying the stuff directly from the can speaking of said meters i compared the against the a that i ve had on my bench for almost years it has been five years since the a has been calibrated on the dc scale they agree within mv ac scale is within about mv the would be just about the perfect portable meter if it had the db scale i didn t feel it was worth the extra for a second since i don t use db all that much in my work bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown oh usa phone wtm uhura neoucom edu n wed
sci.electronics	re using generated power on large sound systems in article rk ekv slack sim es com pashdown slack sim es com pete ashdown writes i ve bothered the rental shops and audio shops about the problem but most of them have precious little experience in dealing with generated power my suspicion is that i don t really need anything larger than kw and this could all be resolved with a transformer of some sort nope your problem is either being caused by excessive voltage drop in the long cable from the generator or just plain not having enough power i would suspect that those amps are going to draw a lot of current on short peaks you can try using larger and shorter cables to the generator or try strapping the amps for v service and running v mains cables out which will minimize the line drop if these don t work though you re going to need a bigger generator i assume that you re using well maintained generators and have watched the voltage output on the generator properly if you don t have v coming out of the unloaded generator you ll never get v at the other end can anyone offer any advice i want to do a lot of outdoor events this summer and it would be nice if this power problem could be resolved easily i ve been looking into buying a power pack so i could tap into junction boxes directly but have no idea where to start one that would resolve my generator problems as well would be of high value to me i recommend you talk with an electrician who has experience in this sort of work and not with the pro audio people also i recommend that you don t try to tap into junction boxes at all but hire a licensed electrician if you don t really know what you are doing i ve had to clean up after two people who nearly killed themselves playing in hot a boxes and it wasn t much fun scott
sci.electronics	re accelerometer request re specified in article apr walter bellcore com deaddio ski bellcore com michael deaddio writes basically i am looking for something to operate in the ranges of accelerations found in an automobile environment i would like the device to operate as a trigger for other systems when the car s deceleration reaches a threshold value which is how i assume some seat belt lock mechanisms and air bag deployment systems work open up one of the airbag control boxes they have inexpensive piezoelectric accelerometers in them i know that the gm cars use the setra units the cheapest way to get such an accelerometer is to cannibalize an existing automotive unit incidentally these things aren t very linear but for the application they would do a fine job scott
sci.electronics	phantoms in my sony strvx receiver while i have gotten years out of this digital receiver it has been acting verry strange of late i hope that the following symptoms may help someone diagnose the error i know that whatever lithium memory backup it had has long died thus if i unplug it it won t remember the presets it has given up listening to the remote i tried changing the remote s batteries when i try a remote function the receiver registers that it received it a green remote light flashes but the right function doesn t happen if any function at all also strange when i hit the mute button for example the display panel goes black yikes i ve never seen that before before all the strangeness started the system turned itself off and on again by itself sometimes it won t play a radio station so i have to kinda twist it yes kinda flex the motherboard chasis for it to get the radio tuning back the aux in function always works however it is inconvenient but not inconvenient enough to pay an expensive repair fee while i m not a hardware guy i wonder if something as simple as a surge supressor will be a quick fix the strange thing is that these symptoms come and go someone told me this unit series has a bad voltage amp chip anyway arghh cjk
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes i don t know for sure that this will work but you might try mek methyl ethyl keytone it worked getting the stickum left over from shelf paper and is available at paint stores use a carbon gas mask and lots of ventilation this stuff really stinks michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi if you use mek for your sake wear safty glasses or better still industrial goggles the small est drop in the eye will casue blindness by a catalysis reaction that is non cureavble once it starts the results are similar to mustard gas contamination note mek peroxide is a hardner form fibreglass resins dave stephenson geological survey of canada ottawa ontario canada internet stephens geod emr ca
sci.electronics	re solvent for duct tape adhesive mahy comments deleted rong wrong butane is used in a butane lighter zippo s use petroleum naptha and perfume btw if you wanna find some benzene take a look at aerosol spray gumout carberetor cleaner that stuff will take of the adhesive and the paint and melt plastic and this doesn t melt plastic at least it hasn t melted the plastic bottle that i bought it in yet maybe i d better go check that bottle its been sittin awhile
sci.electronics	re and now serious e magazine in article apr donau et tudelft nl ferry dutentb et tudelft nl ferry toth writes subject and now serious e magazine summary how about starting a group where scientific articles can be pre publish keywords scientific papers electronic magazine for some time i ve been thinking about the possibility of starting a group where scientific articles can be published or perhaps just summaries possible advantages would be free distribution fast acceptance online discussion between authors and readers this would be possible with one group with a moderator for publishing the articles and one perhaps without for discussion i think its a great but idealistic idea a reseacher will first of all try to publish a worthy paper in a credible professional magazine and not in a community like usenet which is infamous for lots not all of junk information the papers that will be published here will in general be of low quality also it is improbable that any credit will be given to a researcher who publish here and sadly that is nowadays a main reason for publishing usenet is great for informal discussions and free exchange of ideas keep it like that a new specialist group is just not worth it gerrit
sci.electronics	re why circuit boards are green fiberglass boards are available in several colors sitting right here i have unetched board stock that is white blue green and yellow respectively i ve also seen black boards solder mask is available in a variety of colors too depending on the supplier the color helps indentify the material don t forget conformal coating i don t think i ve seen phenolic impregnated paper boards in anything other than the familar brown but it would not be difficult to add a dye to change the color bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown oh usa phone wtm uhura neoucom edu n wed
sci.electronics	re how to make the disks copy protected continued in article sehari du cc iastate edu sehari iastate edu babak sehari writes from sehari iastate edu babak sehari subject how to make the disks copy protected continued date wed apr gmt the discussion under the old topic went in the wrong direction some people instead of discussing the issue itself they decided to discuss the non technical part of the issue so here i go with my limited knowledge about this issue hoping you guys cut the crap and talk about the real technical ways to do this the methods that i am aware that are effective are laser hole burning this would leave the disk damaged so if you format that particular sector of the disk you can not write to it it is very laser holes are or were used to prevent someone from making exact copies of a disk you do not want to write to the damaged disk only read and use the programs hard for crackers to damage the disk exactly the same way i remember a program called copywrite that could copy a disk with a laser hole in it i think it simulates the laser hole after copying the disk the program is if necessary used in conjunction with a program called nokey or something the program tells you which program to use no solution gerrit
sci.electronics	re info on flux gate coils magnetometer in article bbuck endor bbuck endor sim es com bryce buck writes subject info on flux gate coils magnetometer keywords flux gate magnetometer i am interested in finding sources and design information on flux gate coils or flux gate magnetometers digital compass please respond via e mail sorry my news reader doesn t want to reply ling s c fluxgate magetometer for space application ieee journal spacecraft vol no march april pp oldish but usable background information fluxgate magnetometry electronics world wireless world september pp great circuit diagrams etc for building an electronuc compass gerrit
sci.electronics	re lead acid batteries part in article c h luy cbfsb cb att com rdell cbnewsf cb att com richard b dell writes in article apr ulkyvx louisville edu jhwhit ulkyvx louisville edu writes in article apr mprgate mpr ca vanderby mprgate mpr ca david vanderbyl writes lots of stuff deleted the lead acid secondary cell discharge reaction is exothermic i am glad you do not dispute this point if you don t want the lead storage battery to discharge it should be stored such that its charged state is the equilibrium state during winter the ground be it covered with concrete dirt or wood maintains a cooler temperature on average than the surrounding air or the battery the heat capacity of air is less than that of concrete dirt or wood so it heats faster conversely air cools faster too the normal storage procedure for a battery is to leave it in an unheated garage or basement the storage surface is often cooler than the surrounding air with the battery temperature somewhere in between e g the basement air temperature may be f the floor temperature f and the battery temperature f the air temperature is higher than the battery temperature the heat of reaction is not going to move up the gradient the floor temperature is lower than the battery temperature and heat is going to move to it the floor is an incredible heat sink might depend on where you live i know locally for most of the winter the ground and concrete floor within sheds and garages unheated is signifacantly warmer than the average air temperature the air does get warmer during the day but during the night the ground and concrete is definitely warmer especially when protected by the walls from the albedo effect and the nights are longer by several hours than the days rest of quoted text deleted jeff white jhwhit ulkyvx louisville edu richard dell sorry about following up my own article but i wanted to continue that what might be being missed here is that the important thing might not be temperature differences per se but the action of heat sinking the battery perhap someone could conduct an experiment taking two identical lead acid batteries placing both on wooden shelves but putting one of them in a water bath designed to act as a heat sink this would eliminate the concrete floor effect and keep both batteries at the same ambient temperature i think the argument over temperatures is not pertinent but the one over heat conductance and removing the exothermic heat may have some validity richard dell
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in article r j g hsdndev harvard edu rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes in article apr vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes poster for being treated by a liscenced physician for a disease that did not exist calling this physician a quack was reprehensible steve and i see that you and some of the others are doing it here as well do you believe that any quacks exist how about quack diagnoses is being a licensed physician enough to guarantee that someone is not a quack or is it just that even if a licensed physician is a quack other people shouldn t say so can you give an example of a commonly diagnosed ailment that you think is a quack diagnosis or have we gotten to the point in civilization where we no longer need to worry about unscrupulous healers taking advantage of people david rind i don t like the term quack being applied to a licensed physician david questionable conduct is more appropriately called unethical in my opinion i ll give you some examples prescribing controlled substances to patients with no demonstrated need other than a drug addition for the medication prescribing thyroid preps for patients with normal thyroid function for the purpose of quick weight loss using laetril to treat cancer patients when such treatment has been shown to be ineffective and dangerous cyanide release by the nci these are errors of commission that competently trained physicians should not committ but sometimes do there are also errors of omission some of which result in malpractice suits i don t think that using anti fungal agents to try to relieve discomfort in a patient who you suspect may be having a problem with candida or another fungal growth is an error of commission or omission healers have had a long history of trying to relieve human suffering some have stuck to standard approved procedures others have been willing to try any reasonable treatment if there is a chance that it will help the patient the key has to be tied to the healer s oath i will do no harm but you know david that very few treatments involve no risk to the patient the job of the physician is a very difficult one when risk versus benefit has to be weighed each physician deals with this risk benefit paradox a little differently some are very conservative while others are more agressive an agressive approach may be more costly to the patient and carry more risk but as long as the motive is improving the patient s health and not an attempt to rake in lots of money through some of the schemes that have been uncovered in the medicare fraud cases i don t see the need to label these healers as quacks or even unethical what do i reserve the term quack for pseudo medical professionals these people lurk on the fringes of the health care system waiting for the frustrated patient to fall into their lair some of these individuals are really doing a pretty good job of providing alternative medicine but many lack any formal training and are in the business simply to make a few fast bucks while a patient can be reasonably assured of getting competent care when a liscenced physician is consulted this alternative care area is really a buyer s beware arena if you are lucky you may find someone who can help you if you are unlucky you can loose a lot of money and develop severe disease because of the inability of these pseudo medical professional to diagnose disease which is the fortay of the liscened physicians i hope that this clears things up david marty b
sci.med	help reflux esophagitis i am writing this to find out the following any information on surgery to prevent reflux esophagitis the name s of a doctor s who specialize in such surgery information on reflux esophagitis which leads to cancer my boyfriend age and otherwise in good health was diagnosed with reflux esophagitis and a hiatal hernia about years ago at that time he saw a gastroenterologist and has tried acid controllers mylanta tagamet as well as a restricted diet and raising the head of his bed these treatments were not effective and because the damage was worsening he opted for a surgical repair months ago he was told there were two repair techniques that could fix the problem a nissen wrap and a hill repair he opted for the hill repair he recovered very well from the surgery itself but the pain he had originally is worse and in addition he now has trouble swallowing including saliva the doctor now wants to do an endoscopy and has also informed him that a biopsy might be necessary if he has a pre cancerous condition which he called barrett s syndrome if he can t avoid having reflux will he necessarily get cancer basically if anyone has any information on what he should do now i d appreciate it thanks pat lydon netmanage inc pat netmanage com
sci.med	re diet for crohn s ibd in article uabdpo dpo uab edu spam dom uab edu uabdpo dpo uab edu gila stephen holland writes in article apr midway uchicago edu bmdelane quads uchicago edu brian manning delaney wrote one thing that i haven t seen in this thread is a discussion of the relation between ibd inflammation and the profile of ingested fatty acids fas even write a letter to the editor it is a good point by the way the abbreviation epa is not in general use so i do not know what fatty acid you are speaking about sorry i mean eicosapentaenoic acid and to brian an u of c there is a physician named stephen hanauer there who is a recognized expert in the treatment of ibd you might give him a call coincidentaly just yesterday i was finally referred from the clinic to hanauer i m seeing him on may i ll report what he says about this question the treatment of ibd if you call please say hello to him from me i was looking at u of c for a position and perhaps still am will do brian delaney
sci.med	re cholistasis sp fat free diet pregnancy heart access digex com g writes hi i ve just returned from a visit with my ob gyn and i have a few concerns that maybe y all can help me with i ve been seeing her every weeks for the past few months i m at week and during the last visits i ve gained to pounds every weeks she said this was unacceptable over any week period as it stands i ve thus far gained pounds also she says that though i m at weeks the baby s size is weeks i think she mentioned inches for the top of the fundus when i was weeks the baby s size was weeks i must also add that i had an operation a few years ago for endometriosis and i ve had no problems with endometriosis but apparently it is causing me pain in my pelvic region during the pregnancy and i have a very difficult time moving and the doc has recommended i not walk or move unless i have to i have a little handicapped sticker for when i do need to go out anyway that s of the situation the other is that almost from the beginning of pregnancy i was getting sick throwing up about times a day and mostly it was bile that was being eliminated i told her about this i know this because i wasn t eating very much due to the nausea and could see the results well now i only get sick about once every weeks and it is still bile related but in addition i had begun to feel movement near my upper right abdomen just below the right breast usually when i was lying on my right side it began to get worse though because it started to hurt when i lay on my right side and then it hurt no matter what position i was in next i noticed that when i ate greasy or fatty foods i felt like my entire abdomen had turned to stone and the pain in the area got worse however if i ate sauerkraut or vinegar or something to cut the fat it wasn t as much of a problem so the doctor says i have cholistatis and that i should avoid fatty foods this makes sense and because i was already aware of what seemed to me this cause and effect relationship i have been avoiding these foods on my own but i m still able to eat foods with ricotta cheese for instance and other low fat foods but doc wants me to be on a non fat diet this means no meat except fish and chicken w o skin i do this anyway no nuts fried food cheese etc i am allowed skim milk she said i should avoid anything sweet e g bananas also i must only have one serving of something high in carbohydrates a day potatoes pasta rice she said i can t even cook vegetables in a little bit of oil and that i should eat vegetables raw or steamed i m concerned because i understand you need to have some fat in your diet to help in the digestive process and if i m not taking in fat is she expecting the baby will take it from my stores and why this restriction on carbohydrates if she s concerned about fat i m not clear how much of her recommendation is based on my weight gain and how much on cholistatis which i can t seem to find any information on she originally said that i should only gain pounds during the entire pregnancy since i was about lbs overweight when i started but my sister gained lbs during her pregnancy and she s taken it all off and hasn t had any problems she also asked if any members of my family were obese which none of them are anyway i think she is overly concerned about weight gain and feel like i m being punished by a severe diet she did want to see me again in one week so i think she the diet may be temporary for that one week what i want to know is how reasonable is this non fat diet i would understand if she had said low fat diet since i m trying that anyway even if she said really low fat diet i think she assumes i must be eating a high fat diet but really it is that because of the endometriosis and the operation i m not able to use the energy from the food i do eat any opinions info and experiences will be appreciated i m truly going stark raving mad trying to meet this new strict diet because fruits and vegetables go through my system in a few minutes and i ll end up having to eat constantly thus far i don t find any foods satisfying thanks g for one week she probably wants to see how you react to the diet if it changes anything you can live on the diet but you need to up your calories where before you had a pat of butter now you need a medium apple probably microwave cooked smaller meals but more of them not terrific amounts of meat it s hard to digest anyway for comfort and to make the carbohydrate meal last longer eat pasta or rice which give their calories up slowly rather than bread or corn maybe smaller meals as you may be getting less room in the stomach area is the baby still coming up is it starting to push or rub under your ribs how tight are your clothes you shouldn t be wearing any clothing that compresses your middle be sure not to suck in your stomach when sitting again it will put pressure on the digestive tract try laying on your sides back and stay in reclining positions for the many hours you are being inactive easier on your legs circulation as well you might try letting the baby turn or at least not be forced under the ribs during the last months when you are shortwaisted it s easy for that baby to end up right under the diaphram especially if you have tight abdominal muscles if i had my second one to do over again i think i d have tried to loosen up since he didn t turn sideways until late and the relief was enormous maybe this doctor does have a thing about weight gain in pregnancy or maybe she just nags all her patients this way especially if she s young but this gallbladder whatever problem that might be coming up is something to be avoided if possible nausea etc can vary from person to person and with each pregnancy my first pregnancy was miserable during the second i had very little trouble some articles have said that women with nausea had a statistically better chance of carrying their baby grain of salt here good luck jackie
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes in article apr vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes poster for being treated by a liscenced physician for a disease that did not exist calling this physician a quack was reprehensible steve and i see that you and some of the others are doing it here as well do you believe that any quacks exist how about quack diagnoses is being a licensed physician enough to guarantee that someone is not a quack or is it just that even if a licensed physician is a quack other people shouldn t say so can you give an example of a commonly diagnosed ailment that you think is a quack diagnosis or have we gotten to the point in civilization where we no longer need to worry about unscrupulous healers taking advantage of people david rind sure there are quacks there are quacks who don t treat and quacks who treat one s that refuse to diagnose and ones that diagnose improperly there are lucky quacks and unlucky quacks smart quacks and dumb ones there are people ahead of their time with unprobable or unproven theories and rationals there are ill reasoned absurd theorists sometimes it s hard to tell who s who reading a book of ancient jokes it seems that doctors called other doctors quacks in babylon arguments abound when there aren t any firm answers plenty of illnesses aren t or can t be diagnosed or treated but i think it s better to argue against the theory as was originally done with postings on candida a month or so ago stating the facts usually works better than simply asserting an opinion about someone s competency and you can t convince everybody sometimes a correct diagnosis takes years for people they don t run into a doctor who recognizes the disease they haven t developed something recognizable yet or they have something that no one is going to recognize because it hasn t been described yet sometimes they get a cure sometimes the illness wears out sometimes they stumble on an improper diagnosis with the right treatment sometimes they find it s incurable there is no profit in a patient accepting a hopeless attitude about an illness unless it s a rock solid diagnosis of terminal disease it s is more like ly that a person will find a cure if they keep looking jackie
sci.med	re quack quack was re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in article noringc yl i qo netcom com noring netcom com jon noring writes in article rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes do you believe that any quacks exist how about quack diagnoses is being a licensed physician enough to guarantee that someone is not a quack or is it just that even if a licensed physician is a quack other people shouldn t say so i would say there are also significant numbers of unscrupulous doctors of the squeaky clean traditional crew cut talk to the ama before starting any treatment kind umm weren t you the one objecting to someone who is a licensed physician being called a quack or is it just that being a licensed physician is a good defense against charges of quackery when the physician agrees with your system of beliefs lately i ve seen the word quack bandied about recklessly actually i almost never use the term quack when i discuss systemic yeast syndrome however i always point out that mainstream medicine views this as a quack diagnosis and i agree with that characterization let me put it another way to make my point clear quack is a nebulous word lacking in any precision really i bet virtually everyone reading these posts understands what steve dyer gordon banks and i am implying when we have talked about systemic yeast syndrome as a quack diagnosis would you prefer the word charlatan i don t happen to think that all quacks are charlatans since i suspect that some believe in the diseases they are diagnosing p s may i suggest seriously that if the doctors and wanna be doctors on the net who refuse to have an open mind on alternative treatments and theories such as the yeast theory should create your own moderated group why is there some reason why you feel that it shouldn t be pointed out in sci med that there is no convincing empirical evidence to support the existence of systemic yeast syndrome david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
sci.med	re do we need a radiologist to read an ultrasound dougb comm mot com doug bank writes my wife s ob gyn has an ultrasound machine in her office when on her next visit my wife asked another doctor in the office if they read the ultrasounds themselves or if they had a radiologist read the pictures the doctor very vehemently insisted that they were qualified to read the ultrasound and radiologists were not my wife is concerned about this she saw a tv show a couple months back something like or dateline nbc etc where an expert on fetal ultrasounds a radiologist was showing all the different deffects that could be detected using the ultrasound should my wife be concerned should we take the pictures to a radiologist for a second opinion and if so where would we find such an expert in chicago we don t really have any special medical reason to be concerned but if a radiologist will be able to see things the ob gyn can t then i don t see why we shouldn t use one any thoughts as far as i can see if your obstetrition has an ultrasound in his rooms and is expirienced its use and interpretation he should be just as capable of reading it as any radiologist all doctors are qualified to read x rays u s ct scans etc it is just that a radiologist does nothing else and thus is only better at reading them because of all this time spent doing this skill in reading x rays etc just comes from plenty of practice if your obstetrition reads heaps of obstetric ultrasounds he should be able to pick up any abnormalities that can be demonstrated by this technique paul zikzak public access unix melbourne australia o o
sci.med	re quack quack was re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in article rag cb hsdndev harvard edu rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes in article noringc yl i qo netcom com noring netcom com jon noring writes p s may i suggest seriously that if the doctors and wanna be doctors on the net who refuse to have an open mind on alternative treatments and theories such as the yeast theory should create your own moderated group why is there some reason why you feel that it shouldn t be pointed out in sci med that there is no convincing empirical evidence to support the existence of systemic yeast syndrome i don t know the first thing about yeast infections but i am a scientist no scientist would take your statement no convincing empirical evidence to support the existence of systemic yeast syndrome to tell you anything except an absence of data on the question noring has pointed out the catch that if the crazy theory were true you probably couldn t find any direct evidence of it that you couldn t observe those yeastie beasties with present methods even if they were there noring and the fellow from oklahoma sorry forgot your name have also suggested one set of anecdotal evidence in favor based on their personal experiences namely that when people with certain conditions are given anti fungals many of them appear to get better so if you have any evidence against the hypothesis for example controlled double blind studies showing that the anti fungals don t do any better than sugar water then let s hear it if you don t then what we have is anecdotal and uncontrolled evidence on one side and abject disbelief on the other in which case please there is no point in yelling back and forth at each other any longer since neither side has any convincing evidence either positive or negative and i understand that your abject disbelief is based on the existence of people who may get famous or make money applying the diagnosis to everything in sight making wild claims with no evidence and always refusing to do controlled studies but that has absolutely no bearing on the apparently sincere experiences of the people on the net observing anti fungals working on themselves and other people in certain specific cases there are also quacks who sell oral superoxide dismutase in spite of the fact that it s completely broken down in the guts but this doesn t change the genuine scientific knowledge about the role of superoxide dismutase in fighting oxidative damage same thing just cause there are candida quacks that doesn t establish evidence against the candida hypothesis if there s some other reason besides the quacks if only anecdotal to think it could be true then that is what has to be considered that is what the net people have been talking about but again there is no point in arguing about it there is anecdotal evidence and there is no convincing evidence and there are also some candida quacks out there i hope everyone can agree on all of that thus it appears to me the main question now is whether the proponents can marshall enough anecdotal evidence in a convincing and documented enough manner to make a good case for carrying out a good controlled double blind study of antifungals or else forget convincing anybody else to carry out the test just carry it out themselves and also whether they can adequately define the patient population or symptoms on which such a study should be carried out to provide a fair test of the hypothesis ken
sci.med	re eye dominance bbenowit telesciences com barry d benowitz writes in article c e g world std com rsilver world std com richard silver writes is there a right eye dominance eyedness as there is an overall right handedness in the population i mean do most people require less lens corrections for the one eye than the other if so what kinds of percentages can be attached to this thanks yes there is such a thing as eye dominance although i am not sure if this dominance refers to perscription strength as i recall if you selectively close your dominant eye you will percieve that the image shifts this will not happen if you close your other eye i believe that which eye is dominant is related to handedness but i can t recall the relation at the moment barry d benowitz i read a great book about eye dominance several years ago so there is one book out there at least one there were several types of eye dominance where a person looks in their memory usually indicates a type of eye dominanc another type is related to coordination activities like hitting a ball another for reading i didn t read one that discussed prescription strength although people with bad vision near or far sighted would tend to depend on the stronger eye jackie
sci.med	sweet s syndrome my brother s affine has recently been diagnosed with sweet s syndrome also called steroid resistant sweet s syndrome this syndrome started after she had had iodine treatment for hyperthyroidism she d been reluctant to have treatment for the hyperthyroidism for many years and apparently started to show exaustion from it i understand that she may still be testing high in thyroid level but she s isn t being treated by an endocrinologist her previous endocrinologist bowed out when she entered the hospital she entered the hospital because of the sweet s syndrome symptoms skin lesions i ve looked through the last two years of medline and didn t find an abstract mentioning a correlation between thyroid and sweets i checked a handbook which said that sweet s was associated with leukemia i d like a reccomndation for experts who are in new york city or who travel to new york city for the sweets and perhaps for the endocrinology any information that might help apparently there hasn t been much improvement in her condition over the past several months jackie
sci.med	from srebrenica doctoring in hell srebrenica s doctor recounts town s living hell by laura pitter tuzla bosnia reuter neret mujanovic was a pathologist when he trekked through the mountains to the besieged muslim town of srebrenica last august but after treating mangled victims of bosnia s bloody war he considers himself a surgeon now i m a surgeon with great experience although i have no license to practice but if i operate on a person and he lives normally that s the greatest license a surgeon could have evacuated by the u n this week to his home town of tuzla the muslim physician gave an eyewitness medical assessment of the horrors of the year long serb siege of srebrenica and the suffering of the thousands trapped there i lived through hell together with the people of srebrenica all those who lived through this are the greatest heroes that humanity can produce he told reporters mujanovic had practiced for two months as an assistant at a local hospital in tuzla but before going to srebrenica he had never performed a surgical operation on his own now he says he has performed major surgery times relying on books for guidance amputating arms and legs times usually without anesthetic delivering babies and performing four cesarean sections he worked to hour days slept in the hospital for the first weeks after his arrival last aug and treated patients he arrived after making the trek over mountains on foot from tuzla miles northwest of srebrenica about other people carried in supplies and soldiers guided and protected him through guerrilla terrain he said his worst memory was of days ago when seven serb shells landed within one minute in an area half the size of a football field killing people immediately and wounding half of the dead were women and children the people had come out for a rare day of sunshine and the children were playing soccer there was no warning the blood flowed like a river in the street he said there were pieces of women all around and you could not piece them together one woman holding her two children in her hands was lying with them on the ground dead they had no heads before mujanovic arrived with his supplies conditions were deplorable he said many deaths could have been prevented had the hospital had surgical tools facilities and medicine the six general practitioners who had been operating before he arrived had even less surgical experience than he did they didn t know the basic principles for amputating limbs once he arrived the situation improved he said but by mid september he had run out of supplies bandages were washed and boiled five times sometimes they were falling apart in my hands he said doctors had no anesthetic and could not give patients alcohol to numb the pain because it increased bleeding people were completely conscious during amputations and stomach operations he said blood transfusions were impossible because they had no facilities to test blood types i felt destroyed psychologically mujanovic said the situation improved after dec when a convoy arrived from the belgian medical group medecins sans frontieres but mujanovic said the military predicament worsened in mid december after bosnian serbs began a major offensive in the region every day we had air strikes and shellings then the hunger set in between mid december and mid march when u s planes began air dropping food between and people were dying every day from complications associated with malnutrition he said i know for sure that the air drop operation saved the people from massive death by hunger and starvation he said according to mujanovic around people died in srebrenica of them children during a year of siege mujanovic plans to return to srebrenica in three weeks after visiting his wife who is ill in tuzla they say i m a hero he said there were thousands of people standing at the sides of the road crying and waving when i left and i cried too sharon machlis gartenberg framingham ma usa e mail sharon world std com
sci.med	re great post was candida bloom in article noringc ygw f m netcom com noring netcom com jon noring writes of course they are working on the theory that candida overbloom with penetration into mucus membrane tissue with associated mild inflammatory response can and does occur in a large number of people if you reject this yeast hypothesis then i d guess you d view this research as one more wasteful and quixotic endeavor stay tuned i do not have enough medical expertise to have much of an opinion one way or another on hidden candida infections i can understand the skepticism of those who see this associated with various general kinds of symptoms while there is a lack of solid demonstration that this happens and causes such general symptoms to understand this skepticism one only needs to know of past failures that shared these characteristics with the notion of hidden candida infection there have been quite a few and the proponents of all thought that the skeptics were overly skeptical on the other hand i am happy to read that some people are sufficiently interested in this possibility spurred by suggestive clinical experience to research it further the doubters may be surprised it has happened before i realize that admitting ignorance in the face of ignorance may not endear me to those who are so sure they know one way or another and indeed perhaps some of them do know i am the one who is currently ignorant but i find this the most honest route and so i am happy with it russell
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in an article jon noring writes in article rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes do you believe that any quacks exist how about quack diagnoses is true focus of the medical profession the ama and the boards should focus on these quacks instead of devoting unbelievable energy on search and destroy missions to pull the licenses of those doctors who are trying non traditional or not fully accepted treatments for their desperate patients that traditional accepted medicine cannot help if i prescribe itraconazole for a patient s sinusitis neither the ama fda state licensing board nor abfp will be knocking on my door to ask why this is a specious argument on their backs and pee pee on themselves in obedience what do they teach you in medical school how to throw your authority around among other things how to evaluate new theories and treatments let me put it another way to make my point clear quack is a nebulous word lacking in any precision its sole use is to obfuscate the issues at hand funny i thought it meant one who fraudulently misrepresents his ability and experience in the diagnosis and treatment of disease or the effects to be achieved by the treatment he offers dorland s th certainly more precision than conveyed by chronic yeast the indiscriminate use of this word is a sure sign of incompetency and coming from any medical doctor or wanna be where competency is expected is real scary the inability to discriminate between fraudulent or erroneous representations is far more frightening it is fraud to promote a treatment where the evidence for it is either lacking or against it and the quacksalver knows so or error if the honest practitioner doesn t know so failure to speak out against either bespeaks incompetency p s may i suggest seriously that if the doctors and wanna be doctors on the net who refuse to have an open mind on alternative treatments and theories such as the yeast theory should create your own moderated group may i reply seriously that if the practitioners and proponents of non scientific medicine have left their minds so open that the parts of their brains that do critical evaluation have fallen out they should learn to edit their newsgroup headers to conform to the existing hierarchy and divisions john angelo gnassi lab of computer science jgnassi hstbme mit edu massachusetts general hospital eternal student boston massachusetts usa the earth be spanned connected by a network walt whitman
sci.med	re frequent nosebleeds in a previous article mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington says in article aa seastar seashell bebmza sru chvpkh chevron com beverly m zalan writes my year son is so plagued lots of vaseline up his nose each night seems to keep it under control but let him get bopped there and he ll recur for days also allergies colds dry air all seem to contribute but again the vaseline or a d ointment or neosporin all seem to keep them from recurring if you can get it you might want to try a canadian over the counter product called secaris which is a water soluble gel compared to vaseline or other greasy ointments secaris seems more compatible with the moisture that s already there secaris is reasonably inexpensive cdn for a tube and is indeed an over the counter medication why it does not appear to be available in the us i don t know it s manufactured in montreal it s a nasal lubricant and is intended to help nosebleeds that result from dry mucous membranes from some of the replies to my original posting it s evident that some people do not secrete enough mucous to keep their nose lining protected from environmental influences ie dry air but i ve had no responses from anyone with experience with rutin is there another newsgroup that might have specifics on herbal remedies but thanks to all those who did reply with their experiences robert allison
sci.med	net address for who i am looking for the email address of the world health organization in particular the address for the department of nursing or the chief scientist for nursing dr miriam hirschfeld the snail mail address i have is the following world health organization avenue appia geneva switzerland please respond directly to me thank you for your assistance elg elizabeth glaser rn elg silver lcs mit edu
sci.med	re request gyro souvlaki sauce in article apr donner sandiego ncr com davel davelpcsandiego ncr com dave lord writes in article r pcn rm terminator rs itd umich edu donald mackie donald mackie med umich edu writes in article apr locus com michael trofimoff tron fafnir la locus com writes would anyone out there in net land happen to have an authentic sure fire way of making this great sauce that is used to adorn gyro s and souvlaki i m not sure of the exact recipe but i m sure acidophilus is one of the major ingredients it s plain yoghurt with grated cucumber and coriander other spices are sometimes used some people use half yoghurt and half mayonaise in the kind i have made i used a lite sour cream instead of yogurt may not be as good for you but i prefer the taste a few small bits of cuke in addition to the grated cuke may also finish the sauce off nicely trh mutrh uxa ecn bgu edu
sci.med	re quack quack was re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction ken isis cns caltech edu writes i don t know the first thing about yeast infections but i am a scientist no scientist would take your statement no convincing empirical evidence to support the existence of systemic yeast syndrome to tell you anything except an absence of data on the question the burden of proof rests upon those who claim the existence of this syndrome to date these claims are unsubstantiated by any available data hopefully as a scientist you would take issue with anyone overstating their conclusions based upon their data beasties with present methods even if they were there noring and the fellow from oklahoma sorry forgot your name have also suggested one set of anecdotal evidence in favor based on their personal experiences namely that when people with certain conditions are given anti fungals many of them appear to get better gee i have many interesting and enlightening anecdotes about myself my friends and my family but in the practice of medicine i expect and demand more rigorous rationales for basing therapy than aunt susie s brother in law anecdotal evidence may provide inspiration for a hypothesis but rarely proves anything in a positive sense and unlike mathematics boolean logic rarely applies directly to medical issues and so evidence of exceptions does not usually disprove but rather modifies current concepts of disease so if you have any evidence against the hypothesis for example controlled double blind studies showing that the anti fungals don t do any better than sugar water then let s hear it if you don t then what we have is anecdotal and uncontrolled evidence on one side and abject disbelief on the other in which case please there is no point in yelling back and forth at each other any longer since neither side has any convincing evidence either positive or negative i would characterize it not as abject disbelief but rather scientific outrage over vastly overstated conclusions it appears to me the main question now is whether the proponents can marshall enough anecdotal evidence in a convincing and documented enough manner to make a good case for carrying out a good controlled double blind study of antifungals or else forget convincing anybody else to carry out the test just carry it out themselves and also whether they can adequately define the patient population or symptoms on which such a study should be carried out to provide a fair test of the hypothesis i have no problem with such an approach but this is not what is happening in the trenches of this diagnosis bob schmieg
sci.med	adenocarcinoma of the lungs putting aside our substantial differences i d like to ask the knowledgeable ones to give feedback on this let me explain one of my family members last week was discovered to have a brain tumor after having some difficulties with walking and writing she is years old otherwise she is in fine health the discovery was made via cat scans she then had mri scans done where small cancerous areas were discovered in her lungs biopsies showed it to be adenocarcinoma one spot is in the lungs and another in the pneumothorax the oncologists believe the cancer started in the lungs and caused the brain tumor she smoked until four years ago anyway i d like feedback as to what adenocarcinoma is how it is different from other cancers how she will be treated luckily the tumor is right below the skull and can be easily removed and statistically what are the chances for full remission recovery thanks jon noring charter member infj club if you re dying to know what infj means be brave e mail me i ll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip fred s gourmet chocolate carlton place phone chips world s best livermore ca v mail who are you read alt psychology personality that s where the action is
sci.med	prk referral in canada could some please refer me to someone who can perform prk photo refractive keratostomy in canada preferably eastern portion i ve looked in the yellow pages with little success and if someone has had a good or bad for that matter experience that would be especially helpful if you could please let me know thanks kurt hozak hozak lab cc wmich edu preferred address
sci.med	re cholistasis sp fat free diet pregnancy aldridge netcom com jacquelin aldridge writes i decided to come back and amend this so it quotes me and has added comments heart access digex com g writes hi it started to hurt when i lay on my right side and then it hurt no matter what position i was in next i noticed that when i ate greasy or fatty foods i felt like my entire abdomen had turned to stone and the pain in the area got worse however if i ate sauerkraut or vinegar or something to cut the fat it wasn t as much of a problem so the doctor says i have cholistatis and that i should avoid fatty foods this makes sense and because i was already aware of what seemed to me this cause and effect relationship i have been avoiding these foods on my own but i m still able to eat foods with ricotta cheese for instance and other low fat foods but doc wants me to be on a non fat diet this means no meat except fish and chicken w o skin i do this anyway no nuts fried food cheese etc i am allowed skim milk she said i should avoid anything sweet e g bananas also i must only have one serving of something high in carbohydrates a day potatoes pasta rice she said i can t even cook vegetables in a little bit of oil and that i should eat vegetables raw or steamed i m concerned because i understand you need to have some fat in your diet to help in the digestive process and if g for one week she probably wants to see how you react to the diet if it changes anything you can live on the diet but you need to up your non fat calories where before you had a pat of butter now you need a medium apple probably microwave cooked smaller meals but more of them not terrific amounts of meat it s hard to digest anyway first even fish fowl and breads have fat second the body will make fat out of carbohydrates if it needs them third your body like most peoples wasn t bred to live on a high fat modern diet if you read texts about ancient and primative people you will read about the luxury of eating fat how people enjoyed it this was because it was so rare even cows didn t put out nearly the amount of butterfat in milk that they do now for comfort and to make the carbohydrate meal last longer eat pasta or rice which give their calories up slowly rather than bread or corn maybe smaller meals as you may be getting less room in the stomach area is the baby still coming up is it starting to push or rub under your ribs how tight are your clothes you shouldn t be wearing any clothing that compresses your middle be sure not to suck in your stomach when sitting again it will put pressure on the digestive tract try laying on your sides back and stay in reclining positions for the many hours you are being inactive easier on your legs circulation as well you might try letting the baby turn or at least not be forced under the ribs during the last months when you are shortwaisted it s easy for that baby to end up right under the diaphram especially if you have tight abdominal muscles if i had my second one to do over again i think i d have tried to loosen up since he didn t turn sideways until late and the relief was enormous maybe this doctor does have a thing about weight gain in pregnancy or maybe she just nags all her patients this way especially if she s young but this gallbladder whatever problem that might be coming up is something to be avoided if possible you don t want to become ill with it while you are pregnant if you are lucky you can work on getting rid of it after the baby it is said that doctors have less gallbadder surgery than the rest of the population a good part of it is that they are willing to do the dieting etc that helps them avoid surgery also i don t think the surgery lets a person go back to eating a high fat diet nausea etc can vary from person to person and with each pregnancy my first pregnancy was miserable during the second i had very little trouble some articles have said that women with nausea had a statistically better chance of carrying their baby grain of salt here good luck jackie
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition these are my last words on the subject from lundby rtsg mot com walter f lundby writes as a person who is very sensitive to msg and whose wife and kids are too i want to know why the food industry wants to put msg in food some people think it enhances the flavor i personally don t think it helps the taste it makes me sick so i try to avoid it from dyer spdcc com steve dyer writes sez you such an effect in humans has not been demonstrated in any controlled studies infant mice and other models are useful as far as they go but they re not relevant to the matter at hand which is not to say that i favor its use in things like baby food a patently ridiculous use of the additive but we have no reason to believe that msg in the diet effects humans adversely well i know that msg effects me adversely maybe not permanently but at least temporarily enough that i like to try to avoid the stuff from kiran village com kiran wagle writes if you don t like additives then for godsake get off the net and learn to cook from scratch sheesh excuse me why can t people learn to cook from scratch on the net i ve gotten lots of recipes off the net that don t use additives if you like additives then get off the net and go to your local supermarket buy lots of packaged foods and you get off the net is it to cover up the fact that the recipes are not very good or the food is poor quality yes and you buy it says something about your taste eh i don t and what happens when the companies forced to submit to your silly notions go out of business because nobody wants to buy their overpriced bad food removing preservatives directly raises food costs by reducing shelf life hey i ll pay my hard earned dollars to buy food that costs more but does not have preservatives i choose to speak with my pocketbook in many ways from kiran village com kiran wagle you have a good point msg is commonly used in soups in bottled sauces in seasoning mixtures and in the coating on barbecue potato chips nacho cheese doritos breading for many frozen fried foods like fish and chicken etc ad naseum if msg is really the problem we should call this barbecue potato chip syndrome or maybe diner syndrome or the and other natural flavorings syndrome it s been a few years since i ve bought anything labelled with and other natural flavorings from kiran village com kiran wagle the reaction came the time the msg was in the food that was the only difference same restaurant same ingredients how do you know this in order to demonstrate your claim you would have had to supervise the preparation on both occasions perhaps they used msg both times and lied about it perhaps once they used something that had begun to spoil and produced some bizarre toxin that you re allergic to well i had had similar reactions many times that was when i really started watching carefully reaction to doritos hey guess what s in there reaction to lawry s season salt guess what s in there i ll give you a hint i ve had enough problems with many many many different products with msg that i figured out one thing unless i plan on getting sick i won t eat the stuff without my seldane and did i ever learn to read labels please note that i am not saying you are making it up i am just trying to point out that the situation is not always as simple as it might seem which was why i started checking every time i got sick and every time i got sick msg was somehow involved in one of the food products and consider there were no other similar ingredients to my knowledge it might not please a medical researcher but it pleased my own personal physician enough for him to give me allergy medicine and most importantly it s enough proof for me to avoid it and enough proof that my incredibly frugal fiance didn t flinch when i literally threw out or gave away all the food products in his pantry that had msg and he always flinches when there s waste but it was a simple explanation i won t eat this stuff i won t cook with this stuff so i can either throw it out or give it away from pattee ucsu colorado edu donna pattee my guess was that the spice mix on the fries contained msg probably lawry s seasoning salt i love the way that tastes i m not saying i never consume anything with msg i ve noticed that i have a certain tolerance level like a small bag of bbq chips once a month or so it not a problem but that same bag of chips will bother me if i also had chicken bouillon yesterday and lunch at one of the chinese restaurants the day before from kelley healthy uwaterloo ca catherine l kelley all that s needed now is that final step a double blind study done on humans there isn t even an ethical question about possible harm as this is a widely used and approved food additive but some say that only of the population has a problem with msg some say it s more like but let s say that it s how many people would have to be tested that would have a problem also i know i have a problem with it and i wouldn t volunteer for a test like thanks guys but i don t want to get sick also i m sure that most people probably have varying degrees of sensitivities at different times if i have a cold i m much more susceptible to the reaction than when i m healthy as proven today when i m stuffy but for some silly reason i still gave in and decided to have the bbq chips from kiran village com kiran wagle because too many of you generic rhetorical you not you cathy go around calling this chinese restaurant syndrome thus suggesting to the people you complain to that you experience this only from chinese food msg is prevalent in a lot more things than chinese food thats why i suggested calling this diner syndrome cathy doesn t i haven t saved all my postings but i never called it chinese restaurant syndrome and i never stated i got it only from chinese food i just thought it would be easiest to conduct my personal test at a chinese take out place that i knew would hold or not hold the msg i can t call up whoever makes doritos and ask them to make me one back of chips without msg on the other hand if one complains about potatoes from a mix or restaurant spice mixes i m going to believe them and if anyone says they got msg sick after eating too many barbecue potato chips at a party i m really going to believe them well i believe i mentioned that in an earlier post let s see you wrote this message at date apr but on date apr gmt i wrote has anyone had an msg reaction from something other than a chinese restaurant lots of times that s why it was so hard for me to pin down i would probably have been easier if i d only have the reaction in a certain type of restaurant but i ve had the reaction in chinese restaurants and greek restaurants and italian restaurants and steak places i can tell you when a steak joint uses accent to tenderize their meat oh and just in case anyone thinks i m prejudice against either chinese food or asian people i m not going home to cook some chinese food for the guy i m marrying next week incidentally his last name is wu so stop it with the flame mail why does a woman work ten years to change a man s habits and then complain that he s not the man she married barbra streisand mary allison mary uicsl csl uiuc edu urbana illinois
sci.med	annual inguinal hernia repair last year i was totally surprised when my annual physical disclosed an inguinal hernia i couldn t remember doing anything that would have caused it that is i hadn t been lifting more than other people do and in fact probably somewhat less eventually the thing became more painful and i had the repair operation this year i developed a pain on the other side this turned out to be another inguinal hernia so i go back to the hospital monday for another fun operation i don t know of anything i m doing to cause this to happen i m years old and i don t think i m old enough for things to start falling apart like this the surgeon who is doing the operation seems to suspect a congenital weakness but if so why did it suddenly appear when i was and not really as active as i was when i was younger does anyone know how to prevent a hernia other than not lifting anything it s rare that i lift more than my month old or a sack full of groceries and you may have noticed that your typical grocery sack is fairly small these days is there some sort of exercise that will reduce the risk of course my wife thinks it s from sitting for long periods of time at the computer reading news j porter clark jpc avdms msfc nasa gov or jpc gaia msfc nasa gov nasa msfc flight data systems branch
sci.med	calcium deposits on heart valve a friend a year old man has calcium deposits on one of his heart valves what causes this to happen and what can be done about it john greze execnet com
sci.med	density of the skull bone could someone tell me what the density of skull bone is or direct me to a reference that contains this info i would appreciate it very much thanks vinay vinay j rao vrao nyx cs du edu
sci.med	re krillean photography holfeltz lstc vm stortek com writes as you know all ready it is the pattern in the bioplasmic energy field that is significant no i didn t already know that i ve never even heard of a bioplasmic energy field care to explain it it s been a few years since my last fields class so i may have forgotten or maybe i skipped that day anyway as ross perot said i m all ears well eyes in this case grant edwards yow is something violent rosemount inc going to happen to a garbage can grante aquarius rosemount com
sci.med	perception of doctors and health care the following article by columnist mike royko is his humorous commentary on some of the public s perception of doctors and their salaries i hope some of you will find it as amusing as i did reprinted w o permission there s no cure for stupidity of poll on doctors salaries by mike royko tribune media services on a stupidity scale a recent poll about doctors earnings is right up there it almost scored a perfect brain dead it was commissioned by some whiny consumers group called families usa the poll tells us that the majority of americans believe that doctors make too much money the pollsters also asked what a fair income would be for physicians those polled said oh about a year would be ok how generous how sporting how stupid why is this poll stupid because it is based on resentment and envy two emotions that ran hot during the political campaign and are still simmering you could conduct the same kind of poll about any group that earns plus and get the same results since the majority of americans don t make those bucks they assume that those who do are stealing it from them maybe the berlin wall came down but don t kid yourself karl marx lives it s also stupid because it didn t ask key questions such as do you know how much education and training it takes to become a physician if those polled said no they didn t know then they should have been disqualified if they gave the wrong answers they should have been dropped what good are their views on how much a doctor should earn if they don t know what it takes to become a doctor or maybe a question should have been phrased this way how much should a person earn if he or she must a get excellent grades and a fine educational foundation in high school in order to b be accepted by a good college and spend four years taking courses heavy in math physics chemistry and other lab work and maintain a average or better and c spend four more years of grinding study in medical school with the third and fourth years in clinical training working to hours a week and d spend another year as a low pay hard work intern and e put in another three to years of post graduate training depending on your specialty and f maybe wind up in debt after medical school and g then work an average of hours a week with many family doctors putting in hours or more until they retire or fall over as you have probably guessed by now i have considerably more respect for doctors than does the law firm of clinton and clinton and all the lawyers and insurance executives they have called together to remake america s health care based on what doctors contribute to society they are far more useful than the power happy ego tripping program spewing social tinkerers who will probably give us a medical plan that is to health what clinton s first budget is to frugality but propaganda works and as the stupid poll indicates many americans wrongly believe that profiteering doctors are the major cause of high medical costs of course doctors are well compensated they should be americans now live longer than ever but who is responsible for our longevity lawyers congress or the guy flipping burgers in a mcdonald s and the doctors prolong our lives despite our having become a nation of self indulgent lard butted tv gaping couch cabbages ah that is not something you heard president clinton or super spouse talk about during the campaign or since but instead of trying to turn the medical profession into a villain they might have been more honest if they had said let us talk about medical care and one of the biggest problems we have that problem is you my fellow american yes you eating too much and eating the wrong foods many of you guzzling too much hooch still puffing away at a pack getting your daily exercise by lumbering from the fridge to the microwave to the couch doing dope and bringing crack babies into the world filling the big city emergency rooms with gunshot victims engaging in unsafe sex and catching a deadly disease while blaming the world for not finding an instant cure you and your habits not the doctors are the single biggest health problem in this country if anything it is amazing that the docs keep you alive as long as they do in fact i don t understand how they can stand looking at your blubbery bods all day so as your president i call upon you to stop whining and start living cleanly now i must go get myself a triple cheesy greasy with double fries do as i say not as i do but for those who truly believe that doctors are overpaid there is another solution don t use them that s right you don t feel well then try one of those spine poppers needle twirlers or have rev bubba lay his hands upon your head and declare you fit or there is the do it yourself approach you have chest pains then sit in front of a mirror make a slit here a slit there and pop in a couple of valves you re going to have a kid why throw your money at that overpaid sawbones so he can buy a better car and a bigger house than you will ever have while paying more in taxes and malpractice insurance than you will ever earn just have the kid the old fashioned way squat and do it and if it survives you can go to the library and find a book on how to give it its shots by the way has anyone ever done a poll on how much pollsters should earn royko is a pulitzer prize winning columnist for tribune media services vinay j rao vrao nyx cs du edu
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article apr llyene jpl nasa gov julie eddie jpl nasa gov julie kangas writes as for how foods taste if i m not allergic to msg and i like the taste of it why shouldn t i use it saying i shouldn t use it is like saying i shouldn t eat spicy food because my neighbor has an ulcer julie it doesn t necessarily follow that you should use it msg or something else for that matter simply because you are not allergic to it for example you might not be allergic to animal fats and like their taste yet it doesn t follow that you should be using them regularly msg might have other bad or good i am not up on knowledge of msg effects on your body in the long run maybe that s reason enough not to use it altho your example of the ulcer is funny it isn t an appropriate comparison at all prakash das
sci.med	re krillean photography in article apr vxcrna cern ch filipe vxcrna cern ch vinci writes how about kirlian imaging i believe the faq for sci skeptics sp has a nice write up on this they would certainly be most supportive on helping you to build such a device and connect to a kvolt supply so that you can take a serious look at your aura filipe santos cern european laboratory for particle physics switzerland please sign the relevant documents and forward the remaining parts to our study effect of kv on human tissue wrapped in film thanks for your support dr thomas trusk dept of cellular biology anatomy email to ttrusk its mcw edu medical college of wisconsin milwaukee wi disclaimer ala foghorn leghorn it s a joke son a joke i say
sci.med	re net address for who in article apr mintaka lcs mit edu elg silver lcs mit edu elizabeth glaser writes i am looking for the email address of the world health organization in particular the address for the department of nursing or the chief scientist for nursing dr miriam hirschfeld the snail mail address i have is the following world health organization avenue appia geneva switzerland the domain address of the who is who arcom ch so try sending email to postmaster who arcom ch josh backon vms huji ac il please respond directly to me thank you for your assistance elg elizabeth glaser rn elg silver lcs mit edu
sci.med	use of haldol in elderly does anyone know of research done on the use of haldol in the elderly does short term use of the drug ever produce long term side effects after the use of the drug my grandmother recently had to be hospitalized and was given large doses of haldol for several weeks although the drug has been terminated she has changed from a perky slightly senile woman into a virtual vegetable who does not talk to anyone and who cannot even eat or brush her teeth without assistance it seems incredible to me that such changes could take place in the course of just one and one half months i have to believe that the combination of the hospital stay and some drug s are in part catalysts for this any comments will estes internet westes netcom com
sci.med	hypodermic needle hi i am doing a term paper on the syringe and i have found some information it is said that charles pravaz has invented the hypodermic needle but then i have also found that alexander wood has invented it does anyone know which one it is of if it was anyone else if there is anymore information that is out there could you please send it to me thank you very much becky olsen
sci.med	re poisoning with heavy water was re too many mris all i can remember is that there was an article in scientific american maybe years ago as someone else noted rats or mice fed nothing but heavy water eventually died and the explanation was given haynes cats ucsc edu haynes cats bitnet ya can talk all ya wanna but it s dif rent than it was no it aint but ya gotta know the territory meredith willson the music man
sci.med	re hypodermic needle in article c vij co eis calstate edu becky olsen bolsen eis calstate edu writes hi i am doing a term paper on the syringe and i have found some information it is said that charles pravaz has invented the hypodermic needle but then i have also found that alexander wood has invented it does anyone know which one it is of if it was anyone else if there is anymore information that is out there could you please send it to me thank you very much becky olsen looking in the evolution of anaesthesia by m h armstrong davison pub williams wilkins baltimore i found the following chronology charles gabriel pravaz inventor of the galvanocautery describes a glass syringe with tapered nozzle this syringe was intended to be used with a special trocar for injecting ferric chloride into aneurysms and thus to heal them by coagulation alexander wood of edinburgh invents the hypodermic needle and adapts pravaz s syringe for use with it you might also be interested to read about the experiments of sir christopher wren in described by oldenberg clarck in the philosophical transactions of the royal society in using a sharpened quill and a pig s bladder he injected opium wine and beer into the veins of dogs don mackie um anesthesiology will disavow
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article rcfj innmds roundup crhc uiuc edu mary uicsl csl uiuc edu mary e allison writes which was why i started checking every time i got sick and every time i got sick msg was somehow involved in one of the food products which points up the studies made by amateurs did you also check every time you did not get sick no you say why not check every thing you eat when you don t get sick and find out how much msg you re actually consuming all that s needed now is that final step a double blind study done on humans there isn t even an ethical question about possible harm as this is a widely used and approved food additive but some say that only of the population has a problem with msg some say it s more like but let s say that it s how many people would have to be tested that would have a problem also i know i have a problem with it and i wouldn t volunteer for a test if you knew enough about what the test was about to decide that you didn t want to participate because it involved msg you d ve already made yourself ineligible since msg is detectable by taste how can anybody be so clueless as to what double blind studies are all about carl j lydick internet carl sol gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol carl disclaimer hey i understand vaxen and vms that s what i get paid for my understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level or below so unless what i m saying is directly related to vax vms don t hold me or my organization responsible for it if it is related to vax vms you can try to hold me responsible for it but my organization had nothing to do with it
sci.med	re opinions on allergy hay fever shots in article apr midway uchicago edu jacquier gsbux uchicago edu eric jacquier says from now on it looks like shots per week for months followed by shot per month or so each shot costs talking about soaring costs and the health care system i would call that a racket we are not talking about rare amazonian grasses here but the garbage which grows behind the doctor s office apart from this issue i was somewhat disappointed to find out that you have to keep getting the shots forever is that right you might look for an allergy doctor in your area who uses sublingual drops instead of shots for treatment you are given a small bottle of antigens drops are placed under the tongue for minutes my allergy to bermuda grass was neutralized this way throughout the treatment process i had to return to the doctor s office every month for re testing and a new bottle of antigens after the allergy was completely neutralized a bottle of maintenance antigens lasts me about months the sublingual drops are then taken times per week and costs so the cost is less than shots and it is more convenient just to take the drops at home bruce long
sci.med	localized fat reduction due to exercise question i was just wondering if exercises specific to particular regions of the body such as thighs will basically only tone the thighs or if fat from other parts of the body such as breasts would be affected just as much h anthony chung c amigas case western reserve university r the school of dentistry future hac po cwru edu cabal on irc ac is
sci.med	re use of haldol and the elderly i m a nursing student and i would like to respond to on haldol and the elderly message id apr fsphy physics fsu edu organization florida state university school of higher thought news software vax vms vnews b first i m sorry to hear that you have had to see your grandmother go through this i know it has to have been tough there are many things that can cause long term confusion in elderly adults the change in environment can cause problems anesthetic agents can cause confusion because the body cannot clear the medicines out of the body as easily in addition medications and interactions between medications can cause confusion as far as whether or not haldol can have long lasting effects even after the drug has been discontinued i do not know i have not seen anything to that effect however i also had not been looking for that information i can see what i can find i can tell you that haldol is an antipsychotic drug and according to the nursing drug handbook it is especially useful for agitation associated with senile dementia p it also should not be discontinued abruptly it did not say anything about long lasting effects because so many things can cause confusion it is hard for me to know what else was going on at the time if i had more history i might be able to answer you better if you want to send me e mail with more information i would be happy to try to help you piece together what might have happened elisa picl fsphy physics fsu edu
sci.med	roc curves software i understand robert centor has a program called roc analyzer that can be used to do receiver operating characteristic roc curve analysis does anyone know if this is avaliable from an ftp site if not does anyone know how to get a copy of it howard doyle doyle pitt edu
sci.med	re re use of haldol and the elderly in article c az m mailer cc fsu edu picl account picl fsphy physics fsu edu writes adults the change in environment can cause problems anesthetic agents can cause confusion because the body cannot clear the medicines out of the body as easily the original poster did not say why his mother had been in hospital but i can answer a few general points elderly patients may exhibit a marked difficulty in coping after being in hospital for a few days the drastic change of environment will often unmask how marginally they have been coping at home even young people find the change unsettling though we have thought that this decrement in function after say anaesthesia and surgery for a fractured hip a common event in the elderly was due to anaesthesia there is good evidence that the change of situation is much more important some hospitals have tried a rapid transit system for hip fractures aiming to have the patient back at home within hours of admission the selection of the anaesthetic has no effect on the ability to discharge these patients early anaesthetists who work with the elderly which is almost all of us generally take care to tailor the choice and dose of drugs used to the individual patient even so there is some evidence that full mental recovery may take a surprisingly long time to return this is the sort of thing which is detected by setting quite difficult tasks not the gross change that the original poster noted haloperidol haldol tm is a long acting drug the plasma half life of the drug is up to hours if the decanoate a sort of slow release formulation is used it may be weeks the elderly are sensitive to haloperidol for a number of reasons without knowing more it is hard to comment don mackie his opinions esiology will disavow
sci.med	re use of haldol in elderly i ve seen people in their forties and fifties become disoriented and demented during hospital stays in the examples i ve seen drugs were definitely involved my own father turned into a vegetable for a short time while in the hospital he was fifty three at the time and he was on separate medications the family protested but the doctors were adamant telling us that none of the drugs interact they even took the attitude that if he was disoriented they should put him on something else as well with the help of an md friend of the family we had all his medication discontinued he had a seizure that night and was put back on one drug two days later he was his old self again i guess there aren t many medical texts that address the subject of way interactions i don t mean this as a cheap shot at the medical profession it is an aspect of hospitals that is very frightening to me docs seem to believe that because they have close control of you it s quite all right to take your bodily equilibria into their own hands that control reduces the chance that the patient will make a mistake but health care providers can make mistakes too and mistakes can be deadly under those circumstances i grant you that sometimes there s no choice nevertheless i suggest you procure a list of the drugs your grandmother is getting and discuss it with an independent doc her problems may not be the effect of haldol at all haldol may have been used validly or it may have been prescribed because other medication confused her and because the hospital normally prescribes haldol for the confused elderly just my opinion larry obviously not a doc c
sci.med	re request gyro souvlaki sauce i got this recipe from a watier on the greek island of samos they use it as a spread for bread there butit is excellent on gyro s as well by the way the actual name is tzatziki here is the recipe yoghurt chopped garlic peeled chopped cucumber salt white pepper a little olive oil and a little vinegar i would love to hear of any other good greek recipes out there jon walker jowalker oboe calpoly edu
sci.med	hypodermic syringe while i don t have an answer for you i reckon blaise pascal is generally credited with inventing the syringe per se i don t know much about the needles however i do know of a southwest virginia country doctor who some thrity or more years ago invented patented used and sold a syringe hypodermic needle combination that retracted injected with the flip of a trigger then retracted giving a near painless injection the fellow was dr daniel gabriel and it was termed the gabriel somebody else syringe did you come across that one plastic disposable syringes came onto the market about that time and his product went by the wayside to my knowledge
sci.med	re use of haldol in elderly in article yfqmlek iv co l andrew cmu edu lawrence curcio lc b andrew cmu edu writes i ve seen people in their forties and fifties become disoriented and demented during hospital stays in the examples i ve seen drugs were definitely involved my own father turned into a vegetable for a short time while in the hospital he was fifty three at the time and he was on separate drugs no wonder he became confused with so many drugs it is almost impossible to know which one is causing the problem and because some drugs potentiate the effect of each other they can make the side effects all the worse and even dangerous kinda like mixing alcohol and antihistamines he was disoriened the doctors thougt they should put him on something else as well unfortunately doctors prescribe drugs to treat the side effects of the drugs a patient is receiving if one drug they are taking causes the patient s blood pressure to go up many times an antihypertensive is prescribed instead of re evaluating the need for the original drug this is why many older adults are trying to take a dozen or so drugs at home procure a list of the drugs your grandmother is getting and discuss it with an independent doc her problems may not be the effect of haldol at all haldol may have been used validly or it may have been prescribed because other medication confused her and because the hospital normally prescribes haldol for the confused elderly i fully agree in addition she proably should be examined by another doctor who can re evaluate the need for the medications she is taking i can t remember the guidelines i either saw in a text or heard during a lecture but any elderly adult who is receiving medications should have the need for the drug re evaluated regularly if her current physician is unwilling to do this find one who will either check the phone book for a physician who specializes in geriatric medicine or gerontology or contact a physician referral line or the american medical society by finding a geriatric specialist he she will more likely be in tune with the special needs of elderly adults and maybe can help
sci.med	fibromyalgia cfs and sleep levels i know that there is a relationship between fibromyalgia and deep sleep i believe that there are five levels of sleep i think that r e m sleep is the third deepest level of sleep and that there are two deeper levels of sleep if i am in error in any of this please let me know which level of sleep is thought to be deficient in people with fibromyalgia are there any known sleep disturbances associated with cfs what sleep disturbances if any are associated with clinical depression do antidepressants correct the sleep disturbances in these diseases are there any good books or medical journal articles about sleep disturbances and these diseases thank you in advance for all replies the more inconvenient it is to answer the phone the more it rings origin one world los angeles b
sci.med	pregnency without sex when i was a school boy my biology teacher told us of an incident in which a couple were very passionate without actually having sexual intercourse somehow the girl became pregnent as sperm cells made their way to her through the clothes via persperation was my biology teacher misinforming us or do such incidents actually occur stephen
sci.med	hicn medical news part cut here volume number april health info com network medical newsletter editor david dodell d m d north nd street suite scottsdale arizona usa telephone fax compilation copyright by david dodell d m d all rights reserved license is hereby granted to republish on electronic media for which no fees are charged so long as the text of this copyright notice and license are attached intact to any and all republished portion or portions the health info com network newsletter is distributed biweekly articles on a medical nature are welcomed if you have an article please contact the editor for information on how to submit it if you are interested in joining the automated distribution system please contact the editor e mail address editor internet david stat com fidonet bitnet atw h asuacad listserv mednews asuacad bitnet or internet mednews asuvm inre asu edu anonymous ftp vm nodak edu notification list hicn notify request stat com fax delivery contact editor for information t a b l e o f c o n t e n t s centers for disease control and prevention mmwr april rates of cesarean delivery malaria among u s embassy personnel fda approval of hib vaccine for children infants dental news workshop explores oral manifestations of hiv infection food drug administration news fda approves depo provera injectable contraceptive new rules speed approval of drugs for life threatening illnesses articles research promises preventing slowing blindness from retinal disease affluent diet increases risk of heart disease general announcments publications for health professionals from national cancer institute publications for patients available from national cancer institute aids news summaries aids daily summary for april to april aids statistics worldwide aids statistics hicnet medical newsletter page i volume number april centers for disease control and prevention mmwr rates of cesarean delivery united states source mmwr date apr cesarean deliveries have accounted for nearly million of the approximately million annual deliveries in the united states since table the cesarean rate in the united states is the third highest among reporting countries exceeded only by brazil and puerto rico this report presents data on cesarean deliveries from cdc s national hospital discharge survey nhds for and compares these data with previous years data on discharges from short stay nonfederal hospitals have been collected annually since in the nhds conducted by cdc s national center for health statistics for medical and demographic information were abstracted from a sample of inpatients discharged from participating hospitals the cesareans and vaginal births after a prior cesarean vbac presented in this report are based on weighted national estimates from the nhds sample of approximately women discharged after delivery the estimated numbers of live births by type of delivery were calculated by applying cesarean rates from the nhds to live births from national vital registration data therefore estimates of the number of cesareans in this report will not agree with previously published data based solely on the nhds stated differences in this analysis are significant at the confidence level based on the two tailed t test with a critical value of in there were cesareans per deliveries the same rate as in and similar to rates during table the primary cesarean rate i e number of first cesareans per deliveries to women who had no previous cesareans for also was stable ranging from to in the cesarean rate in the south was significantly p higher than the rates for the west midwest and northeast rates were higher for mothers aged greater than or equal to years than for younger women in proprietary hospitals than in nonprofit or government hospitals in hospitals with fewer than beds than in larger hospitals and for deliveries for which blue cross blue shield and other private insurance is the expected source of payment than for other sources of payment table the same pattern characterized primary cesarean deliveries since the early s the number and percentage of births to older women increased however if the age distribution of mothers in had remained the same as in the overall cesarean rate in would have been essentially the same as the observed based on the nhds of the approximately live births in an hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april estimated were by cesarean delivery of these an estimated births were repeat cesareans and were primary cesareans since approximately primary cesareans have been performed annually in of women who had a previous cesarean delivered vaginally compared with in of all cesareans in were associated with a previous cesarean with dystocia i e failure of labor to progress with breech presentation with fetal distress and with all other specified complications the average hospital stay for all deliveries in was days in comparison the hospital stay for a primary cesarean delivery was days and for a repeat cesarean days nearly twice the duration for vbac deliveries days or for vaginal deliveries that were not vbacs days in the average hospital stay for all deliveries was days for primary cesareans days for repeat cesareans days and for vbac and non vbac vaginal deliveries and days respectively reported by office of vital and health statistics systems national center for health statistics cdc editorial note the cesarean rate in the united states steadily increased from through however the findings in this report indicate that rates have been stable since because there is little evidence that maternal and child health status has improved during this time and because cesareans are associated with an increased risk for complications of childbirth a national health objective for the year is to reduce the overall cesarean rate to or fewer per deliveries and the primary cesarean rate to or fewer per deliveries objective postpartum complications including urinary tract and wound infections may account in part for the longer hospital stays for cesarean deliveries than for vaginal births moreover the prolonged hospital stays for cesarean deliveries substantially increase health care costs for example in the average costs for cesarean and vaginal deliveries were and respectively the additional cost for each cesarean delivery includes for physician fees and for hospital charges if the cesarean rate in had been the year objective instead of the number of cesarean births would have decreased by versus resulting in a savings of more than billion in physician fees and hospital charges despite the steady increase in vbac rates since several factors may impede progress toward the year national health objectives for cesarean delivery for example vbac rates substantially reflect the number of women offered trial of labor which has been increasingly encouraged since of women who are offered a trial of labor could deliver vaginally a level already achieved by many hospitals trial of labor was routinely offered in of hospitals surveyed in the most recent year for which hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april national data are available when the vbac rate according to nhds data was the year objective specifies a vbac rate of based on all women who had a prior cesarean regardless of whether a trial of labor was attempted to reach the overall cesarean rate goal however increases in the vbac rate will need to be combined with a substantial reduction in the primary rate one hospital succeeded in reducing the rate of cesarean delivery by applying objective criteria for the four most common indications for cesarean delivery by requiring a second opinion and by instituting a peer review process other recommendations for decreasing cesarean delivery rates include eliminating incentives for physicians and hospitals by equalizing reimbursement for vaginal and cesarean deliveries public dissemination of physician and hospital specific cesarean delivery rates to increase public awareness of differences in practices and addressing malpractice concerns which may be an important factor in maintaining the high rates of cesarean delivery references notzon fc international differences in the use of obstetric interventions jama graves ej nchs summary national hospital discharge survey hyattsville maryland us department of health and human services public health service cdc advance data no taffel sm placek pj kosary cl u s cesarean section rates an update birth public health service healthy people national health promotion and disease prevention objectives full report with commentary washington dc us department of health and human services public health service dhhs publication no phs danforth dn cesarean section jama hospital insurance association of america table cost of maternity care physicians fees and hospital charges by census region based on consumer price index in source book of health insurance data washington dc hospital insurance association of america committee on obstetrics acog committee opinion no guidelines for vaginal delivery after a previous cesarean birth washington dc american college of obstetricians and gynecologists hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april rosen mg dickinson jc vaginal birth after cesarean a meta analysis of indicators for success obstet gynecol shiono ph fielden jg mcnellis d rhoads gg pearse wh recent trends in cesarean birth and trial of labor rates in the united states jama myers sa gleicher n a successful program to lower cesarean section rates n engl j med use of trade names and commercial sources is for identification only and does not imply endorsement by the public health service or the u s department of health and human services hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april malaria among u s embassy personnel kampala uganda source mmwr date apr the treatment and prevention of malaria in africa has become a challenging and complex problem because of increasing drug resistance although the risk of acquiring malaria for u s citizens and their dependents stationed overseas generally has been low this risk varies substantially and unpredictably during may the office of medical services department of state oms dos and cdc were notified of an increased number of malaria cases among official u s personnel stationed in kampala uganda a review of the health records from the embassy health unit ehu in kampala indicated that cases of malaria were diagnosed in official personnel from march through june compared with two cases during the same period in ehu oms dos and cdc conducted an investigation to confirm all reported malaria cases and identify potential risk factors for malaria among u s embassy personnel this report summarizes the results of the investigation malaria blood smears from of the reported case patients were available for review by oms dos and cdc a case of malaria was confirmed if the slide was positive for plasmodium sp of the persons were slide confirmed as having malaria a questionnaire was distributed to all persons served by the ehu to obtain information about residence activities use of malaria chemoprophylaxis and use of personal protection measures i e using bednets and insect repellents having window and door screens and wearing long sleeves and pants in the evening of the persons eligible for the survey responded risk for malaria was not associated with sex or location of residence in kampala although the risk for malaria was higher among children aged less than or equal to years than among persons greater than years this difference was not significant relative risk rr confidence interval ci eighty two percent of the cases occurred among persons who had been living in kampala for years compared with those living there less than year travel outside of the kampala area to more rural settings was not associated with increased risk for malaria four malaria chemoprophylaxis regimens were used by persons who participated in the survey mefloquine chloroquine and proguanil chloroquine alone and proguanil alone in addition persons who responded were not using any malaria chemoprophylaxis the risk for malaria was significantly lower among persons using either mefloquine or chloroquine and proguanil than among persons using the other regimens or no prophylaxis rr ci twelve persons not using prophylaxis reported side effects or fear of possible side effects as a reason the risk for malaria was lower among persons who reported using bednets hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april all or most of the time than among persons who sometimes or rarely used bednets rr ci the risk for malaria was also lower among persons who consistently used insect repellent in the evening compared with those who rarely used repellent rr upper confidence limit risk for malaria was not associated with failure to have window or door screens or wear long sleeves or pants in the evening as a result of this investigation ehu staff reviewed with all personnel the need to use and comply with the recommended malaria chemoprophylaxis regimens ehu staff also emphasized the need to use personal protection measures and made plans to obtain insecticide impregnated bednets and to provide window and door screens for all personnel reported by u s embassy health unit kampala uganda office of medical svcs dept of state washington d c malaria br div of parasitic diseases national center for infectious diseases cdc editorial note in uganda the increase in malaria among u s personnel was attributed to poor adherence to both recommended malaria chemoprophylaxis regimens and use of personal protection measures during a period of increased malaria transmission and intensified chloroquine resistance in sub saharan africa the findings in this report underscore the need to provide initial and continued counseling regarding malaria prevention for persons living abroad in malaria endemic areas preventive measures that are also important for short term travelers to such areas mefloquine is an effective prophylaxis regimen in africa and in most other areas with chloroquine resistant p falciparum however in some areas e g thailand resistance to mefloquine may limit its effectiveness in africa the efficacy of mefloquine compared with chloroquine alone in preventing infection with p falciparum is mefloquine is safe and well tolerated when given at mg per week over a year period the risk for serious adverse reactions possibly associated with mefloquine prophylaxis e g psychosis and convulsions is low i e episodes per users while the risk for less severe adverse reactions e g dizziness gastrointestinal complaints and sleep disturbances is similar to that for other antimalarial chemoprophylactics doxycycline has similar prophylactic efficacy to mefloquine but the need for daily dosing may reduce compliance with and effectiveness of this regimen chloroquine alone is not effective as prophylaxis in areas of intense chloroquine resistance e g southeast asia and africa in africa for persons who cannot take mefloquine or doxycycline chloroquine and proguanil is an alternative although less effective regimen chloroquine should be used for malaria prevention in areas only where chloroquine resistant p falciparum has not been reported country specific recommendations for preventing malaria and information hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april on the dosage and precautions for malaria chemoprophylaxis regimens are available from health information for international travel i e yellow book or hours a day by telephone or fax references lobel ho miani m eng t et al long term malaria prophylaxis with weekly mefloquine in peace corps volunteers an effective and well tolerated regimen lancet world health organization review of central nervous system adverse events related to the antimalarial drug mefloquine geneva world health organization publication no who mal pang l limsomwong n singharaj p prophylactic treatment of vivax and falciparum malaria with low dose doxycycline j infect dis pang l limsomwong n boudreau ef singharaj p doxycycline prophylaxis for falciparum malaria lancet cdc health information for international travel atlanta us department of health and human services public health service dhhs publication no cdc hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april fda approval of use of a new haemophilus b conjugate vaccine and a combined diphtheria tetanus pertussis and haemophilus b conjugate vaccine for infants and children source mmwr date apr haemophilus influenzae type b hib conjugate vaccines have been recommended for use in infants since and their routine use in infant vaccination has contributed to the substantial decline in the incidence of hib disease in the united states vaccines against diphtheria tetanus and pertussis during infancy and childhood have been administered routinely in the united states since the late s and has been associated with a greater than reduction in morbidity and mortality associated with infection by these organisms because of the increasing number of vaccines now routinely recommended for infants a high priority is the development of combined vaccines that allow simultaneous administration with fewer separate injections the food and drug administration fda recently licensed two new products for vaccinating children against these diseases the haemophilus b conjugate vaccine tetanus toxoid conjugate acthib trademark for vaccination against hib disease only and a combined diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and whole cell pertussis vaccine dtp and hib conjugate vaccine tetramune trademark a combination of vaccines formulated for use in vaccinating children against diphtheria tetanus pertussis and hib disease acthib trademark on march the fda approved a new haemophilus b conjugate vaccine polyribosylribitol phosphate tetanus toxoid conjugate prp t manufactured by pasteur merieux serum et vaccins and distributed as acthib trademark by connaught laboratories inc swiftwater pennsylvania this vaccine has been licensed for use in infants in a three dose primary vaccination series administered at ages and months previously unvaccinated infants months of age should receive two doses months apart previously unvaccinated children months of age should receive one dose a booster dose administered at months of age is recommended for all children previously unvaccinated children months of age should receive a single dose and do not require a booster more than of infants receiving a primary vaccination series of acthib trademark consecutive doses at and months of age develop a geometric mean titer of anti haemophilus b polysaccharide antibody greater than ug ml this response is similar to that of infants who receive recommended series of previously licensed haemophilus b conjugate vaccines for which efficacy has been demonstrated in prospective trials two u s efficacy trials of prp t were terminated early because of the concomitant licensure of other haemophilus b conjugate vaccines hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april for use in infants in these studies no cases of invasive hib disease were detected in approximately infants vaccinated with prp t these and other studies suggest that the efficacy of prp t vaccine will be similar to that of the other licensed hib vaccines tetramune trademark on march the fda approved a combined diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and whole cell pertussis vaccine dtp and haemophilus b conjugate vaccine tetramune trademark available from lederle praxis biologicals pearl river new york combines two previously licensed products dtp triimmunol registered manufactured by lederle laboratories pearl river new york and haemophilus b conjugate vaccine hibtiter registered manufactured by praxis biologics inc rochester new york this vaccine has been licensed for use in children aged months years for protection against diphtheria tetanus pertussis and hib disease when indications for vaccination with dtp vaccine and haemophilus b conjugate vaccine coincide based on demonstration of co mparable or higher antibody responses to each of the components of the two vaccines tetramune trademark is expected to provide protection against hib as well as diphtheria tetanus and pertussis equivalent to that of already licensed formulations of other dtp and haemophilus b vaccines the advisory committee for immunization practices acip recommends that all infants receive a primary series of one of the licensed haemophilus b conjugate vaccines beginning at months of age and a booster dose at age months the acip also recommends that all infants receive a four dose primary series of diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and pertussis vaccine at and months of age and a booster dose at years a complete statement regarding recommendations for use of acthib trademark and tetramune trademark is being developed reported by office of vaccines research and review center for biologics evaluation and research food and drug administration div of immunization national center for prevention svcs meningitis and special pathogens br div of bacterial and mycotic diseases national center for infectious diseases cdc references adams wg deaver ka cochi sl et al decline of childhood haemophilus influenzae type b hib disease in the hib vaccine era jama broadhurst le erickson rl kelley pw decrease in invasive haemophilus influenzae disease in u s army children through jama murphy tv white ke pastor p et al declining incidence of haemophilus influenzae type b disease since introduction of vaccination jama hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april fritzell b plotkin s efficacy and safety of a haemophilus influenzae type b capsular polysaccharide tetanus protein conjugate vaccine j pediatr acip haemophilus b conjugate vaccines for prevention of haemophilus influenzae type b disease among infants and children two months of age and older recommendations of the immunization practices advisory committee acip mmwr no rr acip diphtheria tetanus and pertussis recommendations for vaccine use and other preventive measures recommendations of the immunization practices advisory committee acip mmwr no rr acip pertussis vaccination acellular pertussis vaccine for reinforcing and booster use supplementary acip statement recommendations of the immunization practices advisory committee acip mmwr no rr acip pertussis vaccination acellular pertussis vaccine for the fourth and fifth doses of the dtp series update to supplementary acip statement recommendations of the immunization practices advisory committee acip mmwr no rr use of trade names and commercial sources is for identification only and does not imply endorsement by the public health service or the u s department of health and human services hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april dental news international workshop explores oral manifestations of hiv infection nidr research digest written by jody dove march national institute of dental research at the second international workshop on the oral manifestations of hiv infection held january february in san francisco participants explored issues related to the epidemiology basic molecular virology mucosal immunology and oral clinical presentations of hiv infection the workshop was organized by dr john greenspan and dr deborah greenspan of the department of stomatology school of dentistry university of california san francisco an international steering committee and scientific program committee provided guidance the conference drew more than scientists from countries including asia africa europe central america south america as well as the united states and canada support tor the workshop was provided by the national institute of dental research the national cancer institute the national institute of allergy and infectious diseases the nih office of aids research and the procter and gamble company among the topics discussed were the epidemiology of hiv lesions ethics professional responsibility and public policy occupational issues provision of oral care to the hiv positive population salivary hiv transmission and mucosal immunity opportunistic infections pediatric hiv infection and women s issues recommendations recommendations emerged from the workshop to define the association between the appearance of oral lesions and rate of progression of hiv to establish a universal terminology for hiv associated oral lesions to look for more effective treatments for oral manifestations to expand molecular biology studies to understand the relationship between hiv infection and common oral lesions and to study the effects of hiv therapy on oral lesions epidemiology since the first international workshop on oral manifestations of hiv infection was convened five years ago the epidemiology of hiv infection has hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april radically changed in hiv infection was detected and reported largely in homosexual and bisexual males intravenous drug users and hemophiliacs today more hiv infection is seen in heterosexual males and females and in children and adolescents while the predominant impact of hiv infection has been felt in africa a major increase in infection rate is being seen in southeast asia as well five hundred thousand cases have been reported to date in this region and more are appearing all the time researchers are continuing to document the epidemiology of oral lesions such as hairy leukoplakia and candidiasis they also are beginning to explore the relationships between specific oral lesions and hiv disease progression and prognosis social political issues discussion on the social and political implications of hiv infection focused on changing the public s attitude that aids is retribution for indiscriminate sexual behavior and drug use speakers also addressed health care delivery for hiv infected patients and the need to educate the public about what aids is and how it is acquired saliva and salivary glands conference speakers described transmission issues and the hiv inhibitory activity of saliva the strength of which varies among the different salivary secretions whole saliva has a greater inhibitory effect than submandibular secretions which in turn have a greater inhibitory effect than parotid secretions research has shown that at least two mechanisms are responsible for salivary inhibitory activity they attributed the hiv inhibitory effect of saliva to the aggregation agglutination of hiv by saliva which may both promote clearance of virus and prevent it reaching a target cell and direct effects on the virus or target cells other topics discussed were the manifestation of salivary gland disease in hiv infected persons and current research on oral mucosal immunity pediatric issues pediatric aids recently has emerged as an area of intense interest with early and accurate diagnosis and proper treatment the life expectancy of hiv infected children has tripled the prevention of transmission of hiv from mother to child may be possible in many cases particularly if the mother s sero status is known prior to giving birth periodontal and gingival tissue disease hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april oral health researchers continue to explore periodontal diseases and gingivitis found in individuals with hiv infection recommendations made at the workshop include the standardization of terminology refinement of diagnostic markers standardization of study design and proper consideration of confounding variables resulting from periodontal therapy occupational and treatment issues occupational issues surrounding the treatment of hiv infected individuals and treatment rendered by hiv infected health care professionals still command considerable attention factors under consideration include the cost benefit of hiv testing patient to health care provider transmission of hiv infection and the reverse and the use of mainstream versus dedicated facilities for the treatment of hiv infected patients conference participants anticipate that a third international workshop on the oral manifestations of hiv infection will be held in five years or less proceedings from the second workshop will be published by the quintessence company in late end of part internet david stat com fax bitnet atw h asuacad fidonet amateur packet ax wb tpy wb tpy az usa na
sci.med	hicn medical news part cut here hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april food drug administration news fda approves depo provera injectable contraceptive p food and drug administration for immediate release susan cruzan the food and drug administration today announced the approval of depo provera an injectable contraceptive drug the drug which contains a synthetic hormone similar to the natural hormone progesterone protects women from pregnancy for three months per injection the hormone is injected into the muscle of the arm or buttock where it is released into the bloodstream to prevent pregnancy it is more than percent effective this drug presents another long term effective option for women to prevent pregnancy said fda commissioner david a kessler m d as an injectable given once every three months depo provera eliminates problems related to missing a daily dose depo provera is available in mg single dose vials from doctors and clinics and must be given on a regular basis to maintain contraceptive protection if a patient decides to become pregnant she discontinues the injections as with any such products fda advises patients to discuss the benefits and risks of depo provera with their doctor or other health care professional before making a decision to use it depo provera s effectiveness as a contraceptive was established in extensive studies by the manufacturer the world health organization and health agencies in other countries u s clinical trials begun in also found depo provera effective as an injectable contraceptive the most common side effects are menstrual irregularities and weight gain in addition some patients may experience headache nervousness abdominal pain dizziness weakness or fatigue the drug should not be used in women who have acute liver disease unexplained vaginal bleeding breast cancer or blood clots in the legs lungs or eyes the labeling advises doctors to rule out pregnancy before prescribing the drug due to concerns about low birth weight in babies exposed to the drug hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april recent data have also demonstrated that long term use may contribute to osteoporosis the manufacturer will conduct additional research to study this potential effect depo provera was developed in the s and has been approved for contraception in many other countries the upjohn company of kalamazoo mich which will market the drug under the name depo provera contraceptive injection first submitted it for approval in the united states in the s at that time animal studies raised questions about its potential to cause breast cancer worldwide studies have since found the overall risk of cancer including breast cancer in humans to be minimal if any hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april new rules speed approval of drugs for life threatening illnesses p food and drug administration monica revelle the food and drug administration today announced that it will soon publish new rules to shed the approval of drugs for patients with serious or life threatening illnesses such as aids cancer and alzheimer s disease these final rules will help patients who are suffering the most serious illnesses to get access to new drugs months or even years earlier than would otherwise be possible said hhs secretary louis w sullivan m d the effort to accelerate fda review for these drugs has been a long term commitment and indeed a hallmark of this administration these rules establish procedures for the food and drug administration to approve a drug based on surrogate endpoints or markers they apply when the drug provides a meaningful benefit over currently available therapies such endpoints would include laboratory tests or physical signs that do not in themselves constitute a clinical effect but that are judged by qualified scientists to be likely to correspond to real benefits to the patient use of surrogate endpoints for measurement of drug efficacy permits approval earlier than if traditional endpoints such as relief of disease symptoms or prevention of disability and death from the disease are used the new rules provide for therapies to be approved as soon as safety and effectiveness based on surrogate endpoints can be reasonably established the drug s sponsor will be required to agree to continue or conduct postmarketing human studies to confirm that the drug s effect on the surrogate endpoint is an indicator of its clinical effectiveness one new drug zalcitabine also called ddc was approved june using a model of this process for treating the human immunodeficiency virus hiv the cause of aids accelerated approval can also be used if necessary when fda determines that a drug judged to be effective for the treatment of a disease can be used safely only under a restricted distribution plan the new rules will help streamline the drug development and review process without sacrificing goad science and rigorous fda oversight said fda commissioner david a kessler m d while drug approval will be accomplished faster these drugs and biological products must still meet safety and effectiveness standards required by law hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april the new procedures also allow for a streamlined withdrawal process if the postmarketing studies do not verify the drug s clinical benefit if there is new evidence that the drug product is not shown to be safe and effective or if other specified circumstances arise that necessitate expeditious withdrawal of the drug or biologic hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april articles research shows promise for preventing or slowing blindness due to retinal disease national retinitis pigmentosa foundation neutrophilic factors rescue photoreceptor cells in animal tests baltimore md researchers at the university of california san francisco and regeneron pharmaceuticals inc nasdaq regn have discovered that certain naturally occurring substances known as neurotrophic factors can prevent the degeneration of light sensing cells in the retina of the eye the degeneration of these cells known as photoreceptors is a major cause of visual impairment this research published to in the december issue of the proceedings of the national academy of science pnas holds promise for people who may lose their sight due to progressive retinal degeneration currently no drug treatment for retinal degeneration exists it is estimated that million americans have severe vision loss due to age related macular degeneration and americans are affected by retinitis pigmentosus a hereditary disease that causes blindness in addition each year more than people undergo surgical procedures to repair retinal detachments and other retinal traumas the research was funded in part by the rp retinitis pigmentosa foundation fighting blindness regeneron pharmaceuticals and the national eye institute it was conducted by drs matthew m lavail kazuhiko unoki douglas yasurnura michael t matthes and roy h steinberg at ucsf arld dr c eorge yancoooulos regeneron s vice president for discovery regeneron holds an exclusive license for this research from ucsf in the research described in the pnas a light damage model was used to assess the survival promoting activity of a number of naturally occurring substances experimental rats were exposed to constant light for one week eyes that had not been treated with an effective factor lost most of their photoreceptor cells the rods and cones of the retina after light exposure brain derived neurotrophic factor bdnf and ciliary neurotrophic factor cntf were particularly effective in this model without causing unwanted side effects other factors such as nerve growth factor ngf and insulin like growth factor igf were not effective in these experiments discussing the research dr jesse m cedarbaum regeneron s director of clinical research said bdnf s ability to rescue neurons in the retina that have been damaged by light exposure may hold promise for the treatment of age related macular degeneration one of the leading causes of vision impairment and for retinal detachment following detachment permanent vision loss may hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april result frorn the death of detached retinal cells it is possible that bdnf could play a role in rescuing those cells once the retina has been reattached surgically retinitis pigmentosa is a slowly progressing disease that causes the retina to degenerate over a period of years or even decades vision decreases to a small tunnel of sight and can result in total blindness it is our hope that research on growth factors will provide a means to slow the progression and preserve useful vision throughout life stated jeanette s felix ph d director of science for the rp foundation fighting blindness in addition to the work described regeneron is developing bdnf in conjunction with aingen inc nasdaq amgn as a possible treatment for peripheral neuropathies associated with diabetes and cancer chemotherapy motor neuron diseases parkinson s disease and alzheimer s disease by itself regeneron is testing cntf in patients with arnyotrophic lateral sclerosis commonly known as lou gehrig s disease regeneron pharlnaceuticals inc based in tarrytown new york is a leader in the discovery and development of biotechnology based compounds for the treatment of neurodegenerative diseases peripheral neuropathies and nerve injuries which affect more than seven million americans drs lavail and steinberg of ucsf are consultants to regeneron hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april affluent diet increases risk of heart disease research resources reporter written by mary weideman nov dec national institutes of health high fat high calorie diets rapidly increase risk factors for coronary heart disease in native populations of developing countries that have traditionally consumed diets low in fat these findings according to investigators at the oregon health sciences university in portland have serious implications for public health in both industrialized and developing countries this study demonstrates why we can develop coronary heart disease and have higher blood cholesterol and triglyceride levels it shows also the importance of diet and particularly the potential of the diet to increase body weight thereby leading to a whole host of other health problems in developing countries and affluent nations as well explains principal investigator dr william e connor head of the section of clinical nutrition and lipid metabolism at oregon health sciences university over the past years dr connor and his team have characterized the food and nutrient intakes of the tara humara indians in mexico while simultaneously documenting various aspects of tarahumara lipid metabolism these native mexicans number approximately and reside in the sierra madre occidental mountains in the state of chihuahua the tarahumaras have coupled an agrarian diet to endurance racing probably as a result coronary heart disease which is so prevalent in western industrialized nations is virtually non existent in their culture loosely translated the name tarahumara means fleet of foot reflecting a tribal passion for betting on kickball races in which participants run distances of miles or more while kicking a machete carved wooden ball the typical tarahumara diet consists primarily of pinto beans tortillas and pinole a drink made of ground roasted corn mixed with cold water together with squash and gath ered fruits and vegetables the tara humaras also eat small amounts of game fish and eggs their food contains approximately percent of total calories as fat of which the majority percent is of vegetable origin dietician martha mcmurry a coinvestigator in the study describes their diet as simple and very rich in nutrients while low in cholesterol and fat the tarahumaras have average plasma cholesterol levels of mg dl low density lipoprotein ldl cholesterol levels of mg dl and high density lipoprotein hdl cholesterol levels of to mg dl all of those values are in the good low risk range according to the researchers elevated cholesterol and ldl cholesterol levels are considered risk factors for heart hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april disease hdl cholesterol is considered beneficial in previous studies the tarahumaras had been found to be at low risk for cardiac disease although able to respond to high cholesterol diets with elevations in total and ldl cholesterol clinical research center dietitian mcmurry and coinvestigator maria teresa cerqueira established a metabolic unit in a jesuit mission school building near a community hospital in the small village of sisoguichi food was weighed cooked and fed to the study participants under the investigators direct supervision ensuring that subjects ate only food stipulated by the research protocol fasting blood was drawn twice weekly and plasma samples were frozen and shipped to dr connors laboratory for cholesterol triglyceride and lipoprotein analyses regular measurements included participant body weight height and triceps skin fold thickness thirteen tarahumaras five women and eight men including one adolescent were fed their native diet for week followed by weeks of an affluent diet in this study we went up to a concentration of dietary fat that was percent of total calories this is the prototype of the holiday diet that many americans consume a diet high in fat sugar and cholesterol low in fiber elaborates dr conners such dietary characteristics are reflected in the cholesterol saturation index or csi recently devised research dietitian sonja conner working with dr connor the csi is a single number that incorporates both the amount of cholesterol and the amount of saturated fat in the diet csi indicates the diet s potential to elevate the cholesterol level particularly the ldl dr connor explains the tarahumaran diet averages a very low csi of dr connor s affluent diet used in the study ranks a csi of the experimental design of this study reflects the importance of establishing baseline plasma lipid levels typical of the native diet before exposing subjects to the experimental diet the standard curve relating dietary food intake to plasma cholesterol demonstrates a leveling off or plateau for consumption of large amounts of fat changes in dietary fat and or cholesterol in this range have little effect on plasma levels you must have the baseline diet almost free of the variables you are going to put into the experimental diet the framingham study for example did not discriminate on the basis of diet between individuals who got heart disease because the diet was already high in fat all subjects were already eating on a plateau dr connor says after weeks of consuming the affluent diet the subjects mean plasma cholesterol levels had in creased by percent primarily in the ldl fraction which rose percent hdl cholesterol increased by per cent and ldl to hdl ratios changed therefore very little plasma triglyceride levels increased by percent and subjects averaged an pound gain in weight according to dr connor lipid changes occurred surprisingly soon yielding nearly the same results after days of affluent diet as after days hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april the increase in hdl carries broad dietary implications for industrialized nations we think hdl cholesterol increased because we increased the amount of dietary fat over the fat content used in the previous tarahumara metabolic study in that study we saw no change in hdl levels after raising the dietary cholesterol but keeping the fat relatively consistent with native consumption in the present study we increased fat intake to percent of the total calories we reached the conclusion in the tarahumara study that hdl reflects the amount of dietary fat in general and not the amount of dietary cholesterol hdl must increase to help metabolize the fat and it increased quite a bit in this study dr connor explains low hdl in the tarahumarans is not typically an important predictor of coronary heart disease because they do not normally consume large amounts of fat or cholesterol hdl remains an important predictor to americans because of their usual high fat intake dr connor recommends a diet for americans that contains less than percent of total calories as fat less than mg of cholesterol and a csi around varying in accordance with caloric needs such a diet is low in meat and dairy fat high in fiber dr connor also comments on recent suggestions that americans adopt a mediterranean style diet the original mediterranean diet in its pristine state consisted of a very low intake of fat and very few animal and dairy products we are already eating a lot of meat and dairy products simply to continue that pattern while switching to olive oil is not going to help the situation the world health organization who is focusing much attention on the emergence of diseases such as coronary heart disease in nations and societies undergoing technological development dr connor says that coronary heart disease starts with a given society s elite who typically eat a different diet than the average citizen if the pattern of afluence increases the entire population will have have a higher incidence of coronary heart disease which places a termendous health care burden on a society who would like the developing countries to prevent coronary heart disease so they can concentrate on other aspects of their economic development and on public health measures to improve general well being rather than paying for unnecessary expensive medical technology dr connors says the overall implication of this study is that humans can readily move their plasma lipids and lipoprotein values into a high risk range within a very short time by an affluent excessive diet the present rate of coronary heart disease in the united states is percent less than it was years ago so a lot has been accomplished we are changing rapidly he concludes hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april general announcments publications for health professionals available from nci unless otherwise noted the following materials are provided free of charge by calling the nci s publication ordering service cancer because federal government publications are not subject to copyright restriction you are free to photocopy nci material general information anticancer drug information sheets in spanish english two sided fact sheets in english and spanish provide information about side effects of common drugs used to treat cancer their proper usage and precautions for patients the fact sheets were prepared by the united states pharmacopeial convention inc for distribution by the national cancer institute single sets only may be ordered cancer rates and risks rd edition this book is a compact guide to statistics risk factors and risks for major cancer sites it includes charts and graphs showing incidence mortality and survival worldwide and in the united states it also contains a section on the costs of cancer pages diet nutrition cancer prevention a guide to food choices this booklet describes what is now known about diet nutrition and cancer prevention it provides information about foods that contain components like fiber fat and vitamins that may affect a person s risk of getting certain cancers it suggests ways to use that information to select from a broad variety of foods choosing more of some foods and less of others includes recipes and sample menus pages national cancer institute fact book this book presents general information about the national cancer institute including budget data grants and contracts and historical information hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april national cancer institute grants process revised this booklet describes general nci grant award procedures includes chapters on eligibility preparation of grant application peer review eligible costs and post award activities pages physician to physician perspective on clinical trials this minute videocassette discusses why and how to enter patients on clinical trials it was produced in collaboration with the american college of surgeons commission on cancer students with cancer a resource for the educator revised this booklet is designed for teachers who have students with cancer in their classrooms or schools it includes an explanation of cancer its treatment and effects and guidelines for the young person s re entry to school and for dealing with terminally ill students bibliographies are included for both educators and young people pages understanding the immune system this booklet describes the complex network of specialized cells and organs that make up the human immune system it explains how the system works to fight off disease caused by invading agents such as bacteria and viruses and how it sometimes malfunctions resulting in a variety of diseases from allergies to arthritis to cancer it was developed by the national institute of allergy and infectious diseases and printed by the national cancer institute this booklet presents college level instruction in immunology it is appropriate for nursing or pharmacology students and for persons receiving college training in other areas within the health professions pages materials to help stop tobacco use chew or snuff educator package each package contains ten copies of chew or snuff is real bad stuff a brochure designed for seventh and eighth graders that describes the health and social effects of using hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april smokeless tobacco products when fully opened the brochure can be used as a poster one copy of chew or snuff is real bad stuff a guide to make young people aware of the dangers of using smokeless tobacco this booklet is a lesson plan for teachers it contains facts about smokeless tobacco suggested classroom activities and selected educational resources how to help your patients stop smoking a national cancer institute manual for physicians this is a step by step handbook for instituting smoking cessation techniques in medical practices the manual with resource lists and tear out materials is based on the results of nci clinical trials pages how to help your patients stop using tobacco a national cancer institute manual for the oral health team this is a handbook for dentists dental hygienists and dental assistants it complements the physicians manual and includes additional information on smoking prevention and on smokeless tobacco use pages pharmacists helping smokers quit kit a packet of materials to help pharmacists encourage their smoking patients to quit contains a pharmacist s guide and self help materials for patients school programs to prevent smoking the national cancer institute guide to strategies that succeed this guide outlines eight essential elements of a successful school based smoking prevention program based on nci research it includes a list of available curriculum resources and selected references pages self guided strategies for smoking cessation a program planner s guide this booklet outlines key characteristics of successful self help materials and programs based on nci collaborative research it lists additional resources and references pages smoking policy questions and answers these ten fact sheets hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april provide basic information about the establishment of worksite smoking policies topics range from the health effects of environmental tobacco smoke to legal issues concerning policy implementation strategies to control tobacco use in the united states a blueprint for public health action in the s smoking and control monograph no this volume provides a summary of what has been learned from years of a public health effort against smoking from the early trial and error health information campaigns of the s to the nci s science based project american stop smoking intervention study for cancer prevention which began in it offers reasons why comprehensive smoking control strategies are now needed to address the smoker s total environment and to reduce smoking prevalence significantly over the next decade materials for outreach programs cancer prevention and early detection community outreach programs for health professionals three kits are available for community program planners and health professionals to set up local cancer prevention and early detection education projects do the right thing get a new attitude about cancer community outreach program this community outreach kit targets black american audiences it contains materials to help health professionals conduct community education programs for black audiences the kit emphasizes the early detection of breast cancer by mammography and of cervical cancer by the pap test it also discusses smoking and nutrition the kit includes helpful program guidance facts news articles visuals and brochures hagalo hoy community outreach program this community outreach kit targets hispanic audiences it contains bilingual and spanish language materials to help health professionals conduct community education programs the materials educate hispanic audiences about early detection of breast cancer by mammography hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april and of cervical cancer by pap tests the kit also discusses smoking and related issues the kit includes helpful guidance facts news articles visuals and brochures once a year for a lifetime community outreach mammography program this community outreach kit targets all women age or over it supplies community program planners and health professionals with planning guidance facts about mammography news articles visuals and brochures making health communication programs work a planner s guide this handbook presents key principles and steps in developing and evaluating health communications programs for the public patients and health professionals it expands upon and replaces pretesting in health communications and making psas work pages support material for community outreach programs the video and slide presentations listed below support the mammography outreach programs once a year for a lifetime videotape this minute vhs videotape uses a dramatic format to highlight the important facts about the early detection of breast cancer by mammography una vez al ano para toda una vida videotape this minute spanish videotape informs spanish speaking women of the need for medical screening particularly mammography it explains commonly misunderstood facts about breast cancer and early detection the program in a dramatic format features edward james olmos and cristina saralegui once a year for a lifetime speaker s kit slide show this kit includes full color slides and a number coded ready to read script suitable for a mammography presentation to a large group it addresses the misconceptions prevalent about mammography and urges women age and older to get regular mammograms so that breast cancer can be detected as early as possible kit hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april includes a guide poster media announcement news feature flyer and pamphlets on mammography this kit is available directly by writing to modern park street north st petersburg fl end of part internet david stat com fax bitnet atw h asuacad fidonet amateur packet ax wb tpy wb tpy az usa na
sci.med	hicn medical news part cut here call for employers to keep information about the hiv status of health care workers confidential but doctors who know of an hiv positive colleague who has not sought advice must inform the employing authority and the appropriate professional regulatory body the guidelines also emphasize the significance of notifying all patients on whom an invasive procedure has been done by an infected health care worker a model letter to patients who have come into contact with such an individual is provided along with suggestions for health officials on how to deal with the media in addition a u k advisory panel on hiv infection in health care workers has been formed to provide specific occupational recommendations to those treating such patients properties of an hiv vaccine nature vol no p volvovitz franklin and smith gale the questions raised by moore et al about recombinant gp envelope glycoprotein precursor from hiv produced by microgenesys are advantages rather than disadvantages write franklin volvovitz and gale smith of microgenesys in meriden conn moore et al says that gp in a baculovirus expression system does not bind strongly to the cd receptor and that this recombinant gp does not stimulate the same antibodies as the hiv virus does in natural infection but vaccination with recombinant gp in patients infected with hiv broadens hiv specific envelope directed immune responses including crossreactive antibodies to gp epitopes and cd and cd cytotoxic t cell responses volvovitz and smith claim that they never intended their gp molecule to be identical to the native protein antibody responses against native hiv proteins including the types described by moore et al exist in nearly all aids patients but do not prevent hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april progression of hiv disease in addition the binding of gp or gp antibody complexes to cd has been shown to interfere with antigen specific activation of cd cells and trigger programmed cell death in vitro which may contribute to the pathogenesis of hiv infection the absence of cd binding by the microgenesys gp vaccine may therefore be viewed as an added safety feature phase i studies have demonstrated stable cd counts stimulation of cytotoxic t cells and the suggestion of restoration of immune function based on these and other clinical results microgenesys gp was chosen by researchers at the karolinska institute in sweden for the first phase iii vaccine therapy studies conclude volvovitz and smith hiv infection breast milk and hiv transmission lancet vol no p mok jacqueline there are still more questions than answers regarding hiv positive women breastfeeding their babies writes jacqueline mok of the lancet the anti infective properties of milk are well documented while the numbers of leukocytes concentrations of lactoferrin and iga and lymphocyte mitogenic activity decline sharply during the first two to three months of lactation to barely detectable levels lactoferrin and iga then increase from three to twelve months with percent of total iga in milk being secretory iga breastfeeding protects infants against gastrointestinal and respiratory illnesses in both normal and uninfected children born to hiv positive mothers the italian national registry of aids discovered that breastfed hiv infected children had a longer median incubation time months than bottlefed infants months breastfed children also had a slower progression to aids there is no agreement on which antibodies offer protection against hiv infection studies of the biological properties of milk from hiv infected women showed the presence of igg and iga antibodies against envelope glycoproteins as well as iga antibodies against core antigens binding of hiv to the cd receptor can be inhibited by a human milk factor in the developing world where infectious disease and malnutrition contribute significantly to infant mortality breast milk is still the best food for infants regardless of the mother s hiv status transmission might be restricted by breastfeeding after colostrum and early milk have been expressed and discarded the possibility remains that breast milk could protect the infant who is already infected with hiv at birth and may even delay progression to aids concludes mok absence of hiv transmission from an infected dentist to his patients journal of the american medical association vol no p dickinson gordon m et al if universal precautions are practiced the risk of hiv transmission from dentist to patient appears to be infinitesimal write gordon m dickinson hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april et al of the university of miami school of medicine in miami fla the researchers contacted all patients treated by a dentist with aids and attempts were made to contact all patients for hiv testing living patients with newly detected hiv infection were interviewed and dna sequence analysis was performed to compare genetic relatedness of their hiv to that of the dentist death certificates were obtained for deceased patients and the medical records of those with diagnoses suggestive of hiv disease or drug abuse and those dying under the age of years were examined in detail there were patients who had undergone procedures of whom were deceased an examination of the death certificates of patients identified five who had died with hiv infection all of whom were either homosexuals or iv drug users the researchers were able to detect of the remaining patients and agreed to be tested hiv infection was reported in five of the patients including four who had clear evidence of risk factors for the disease one patient who had only a single evaluation by the dentist denied high risk behavior comparative dna sequence analysis showed that the viruses from the dentists and these five patients were not closely related the study suggests the potential for hiv transmission from a general dentist to his patients is minimal in a setting in which universal precautions are strictly observed conclude dickinson et al april aids patients are susceptible to recurrences of tb study says washington post p a tuberculosis can strike aids patients more than once which makes the resurging health hazard harder to control according to a study published in today s new england journal of medicine people who contract tb usually develop an immunity that protects them if they are exposed to the bacteria again but a person whose immune system is depleted may not be able to fight off a new tb infection doctors found peter m small of the howard hughes medical institute at stanford university director of the study said that in order to protect against reinfection it may be necessary for some people to use tb medicines permanently the study examined the genetic makeup of tb bacteria and how the germs changed over time in patients at kings county hospital in new york hiv infection breast milk and hiv transmission lancet vol no p mok jacqueline there are still more questions than answers regarding hiv positive women breastfeeding their babies writes jacqueline mok of the lancet the anti infective properties of milk are well documented while the numbers of hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april leukocytes concentrations of lactoferrin and iga and lymphocyte mitogenic activity decline sharply during the first two to three months of lactation to barely detectable levels lactoferrin and iga then increase from three to twelve months with percent of total iga in milk being secretory iga breastfeeding protects infants against gastrointestinal and respiratory illnesses in both normal and uninfected children born to hiv positive mothers the italian national registry of aids discovered that breastfed hiv infected children had a longer median incubation time months than bottlefed infants months breastfed children also had a slower progression to aids there is no agreement on which antibodies offer protection against hiv infection studies of the biological properties of milk from hiv infected women showed the presence of igg and iga antibodies against envelope glycoproteins as well as iga antibodies against core antigens binding of hiv to the cd receptor can be inhibited by a human milk factor in the developing world where infectious disease and malnutrition contribute significantly to infant mortality breast milk is still the best food for infants regardless of the mother s hiv status transmission might be restricted by breastfeeding after colostrum and early milk have been expressed and discarded the possibility remains that breast milk could protect the infant who is already infected with hiv at birth and may even delay progression to aids concludes mok hiv and the aetiology of aids lancet vol no p duesberg peter because there is no proof that hiv is the cause of aids the hypothesis that drug use leads to aids will hopefully become a hindrance to the physiologically azt and psychologically positive aids test toxic public health initiatives writes peter duesberg of the university of california berkeley in the lancet s march issue schechter et al call duesberg s hypothesis that injected and orally used recreational drugs and azt lead to aids a hindrance to public health initiatives however their hypothesis that hiv is the cause of aids has not attained any public health benefits the u s government spends billion annually but no vaccine no therapy no prevention and no aids control have resulted from work on this hypothesis schechter et al conclude that hiv has a key role in cd depletion and aids based on epidemiological correlations with antibodies against hiv and with self reported recreational drug use among homosexuals from vancouver however their survey neglects to disprove duesberg s drug aids hypothesis because it does not provide controls i e confirmed drug free aids cases and because it does not quantify drug use and ignores azt use altogether to refute duesberg s hypothesis schechter would have to produce a controlled study demonstrating that over a period of up to years hiv positive patients who use recreational drugs or azt or both have the same aids risks as positives who do not do so the year period is claimed by hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april proponents of the hiv hypothesis to be the time needed for hiv to cause aids alternatively they could show that hiv free individuals who have used drugs for years never get aids defining illnesses concludes duesberg rapid decline of cd cells after ifna treatment in hiv infection lancet vol no p vento sandro et al interferon ifn which induces autoantibodies and autoimmune diseases in some settings may hasten cd t cell loss in some hiv infected individuals through the amplification of harmful autoimmune reactions write sandro vento et al of the a pugliese hospital in catanzaro italy the researchers report three asymptomatic hiv infected individuals with hepatitis c virus related chronic active hepatitis cah who had a rapid profound decline of cd cells after ifn all three patients throughout the observation were consistently negative for serum hiv p antigen and had circulating antibodies to p sera from all three patients obtained at the end of ifn treatment and testing in enzyme linked immunosorbent assay contained high titres of antibodies reacting to a sequence located in the aminoterminal of the beta chain of all human hla class ii antigens homologous to a sequence located in the carboxy terminus of hiv gp these autoantibodies which also recognize native class ii molecules and may contribute to the elimination of cd t cells in vivo were at low tires in all three patients six months after stopping ifn such autoantibodies were not detected in other patients with hiv infection and hcv related cah treated with ifn and who did not experience cd t cell loss in some hiv infected individuals through the amplification of harmful autoimmune reactions the subjects had a b dr and b dr hla antigen combinations which are linked with a more rapid fall in cd cell counts and clinical progression of hiv disease ifn can induce a very rapid decline of cd cells and should be used cautiously in patients with these hla haplotypes the researchers conclude april tb makes a comeback state government news vol no p voit william and knapp elaine s although tuberculosis was once believed to be eliminated in the united states it is emerging again among the homeless aids patients immigrants minorities and prisoners dr lee b reichman professor of medicine at the university of new jersey medical school and president of the american lung association said right now it s a big city problem but potentially it s everyone s problem the ala predicts that million americans are infected with tb and about percent of them will develop the disease because their immune systems are depressed especially those with aids or hiv gene hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april tammes a centers for disease control expert said that is why the cdc has issued guidelines warning hospitals and institutions not to mix aids with tb patients state health officials believe the tb is also spreading because those who are most susceptible are the least likely to follow through with treatment in addition the increase is attributed to a shortage of public health services in new york city tb is an epidemic because the number of cases is increasing faster than we can treat people said dr george diferdinando director of the new york state tb control according to diferdinando curbing the spread of tb entails keeping percent or more of diagnosed tb cases in treatment about percent of infected new york city residents don t complete therapy when tb patients don t finish taking their medication multi drug resistant tb can develop which requires taking more expensive drugs and can take two years instead of the normal six months to treat increasing frequency of heterosexually transmitted aids in southern florida artifact or reality american journal of public health vol no p nwanyanwu okey c et al the alarmingly high rate of heterosexually acquired aids cases in southern florida was partially related to misclassification of risk write okey c nwanyanwu et al of the centers for disease control in atlanta ga the researchers investigated such aids cases from broward and coastal palm beach counties all of these cases attributed to heterosexual transmission reported sexual contact with bisexual men injecting drug users or persons born in countries where heterosexual contact is the primary route of hiv transmission medical records of patients in addition to records from social services hiv counseling and testing centers and sexually transmitted disease std clinics were reviewed if no other hiv risk factor was found from medical record review patients were interviewed using a standardized questionnaire once std clinic and other medical records were reviewed men and women were reclassified into other hiv transmission categories after adjustments were made for the reclassification the percentage of aids cases reported from palm beach and broward counties between january and march that was attributed to heterosexual transmission decreased from percent to percent among men and from percent to percent among women while the percentage of heterosexually transmitted aids cases in southern florida decreased after adjustment was made for reclassified cases it still remained above the national average the researchers conclude hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april aids statistics world health organization geneva organisation mondiale de la sante geneve weekly epidemiological record releve epidemiologique hebdomadaire january th year acquired immunodeficiency syndrome aids data as at december syndrome d immunodeficience acquise sida donnees au decembre number date of of cases report country area nombre date pays territoire de cas de notifi cation africa afrique algeria algerie angola benin benin botswana burkina faso burundi cameroon cameroun cape verde cap vert central african republic republique centrafricaine chad tchad comoros comores congo cote d ivoire djibouti egypt egypte equatorial guinea guinee equatoriale ethiopia ethiopie hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april gabon gambia gambie ghana guinea guinee guinea bissau guinee bissau kenya lesotho liberia liberia libyan arab jamahiriya jamahiriya arabe libyenne madagascar malawi mali mauritania mauritanie mauritius maurice morocco maroc mozambique namibia namibie niger nigeria nigeria reunion reunion rwanda sao tome and principe sao tome et principe senegal senegal seychelles sierra leone somalia somalie south africa afrique du sud sudan soudan swaziland togo tunisia tunisie uganda ouganda united republic of tanzania republique unie de tanzanie zaire zaire zambia zambie zimbabwe total hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april americas ameriques anguilla antigua and barbuda antigua et barbuda argentina argentine bahamas barbados barbade belize bermuda bermudes bolivia bolivie brazil bresil british virgin islands iles vierges britanniques canada cayman islands iles caimanes chile chili colombia colombie costa rica cuba dominica dominique dominican republic republique dominicaine ecuador equateur el salvador french guiana guyane francaise grenada grenade guadeloupe guatemala guyana haiti haiti honduras jamaica jamaique martinique mexico mexique montserrat netherlands antilles and aruba antilles neerlandaises et aruba nicaragua panama paraguay peru perou hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april saint kitts and nevis saint kitts et nevis saint lucia sainte lucie saint vincent and the grenadines saint vincent et grenadines suriname trinidad and tobago trinite et tobago turks and caicos islands iles turques et caiques united states of america etats unis d amerique uruguay venezuela total asia asie afghanistan bahrain bahrein bangladesh bhutan bhoutan brunei darussalam brunei darussalam burma see myanmar birmanie voir myanmar cambodia cambodge china a chine a cyprus chypre democratic people s republic of korea republique populaire democratique de coree hong kong india inde indonesia indonesie iran islamic republic of iran republique islamique d iraq israel israel hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april japan japon jordan jordanie kuwait koweit lao people s democratic republic republique democratique populaire lao lebanon liban macao malaysia malaisie maldives mongolia mongolie myanmar nepal nepal oman pakistan philippines qatar republic of korea republique de coree saudi arabia arabie saoudite singapore singapour sri lanka syrian arab republic republique arabe syrienne thailand thailande turkey turquie united arab emirates emirats arabes unis viet nam yemen yemen total europe albania albanie austria autriche belarus belarus belgium belgique bulgaria bulgarie czechoslovakia tchecoslovaquie denmark danemark finland finlande hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april france germany allemagne greece grece hungary hongrie iceland islande ireland irlande italy italie latvia lettonie lithuania lituanie luxembourg malta malte monaco netherlands pays bas norway norvege poland pologne portugal romania roumanie russian federation federation de russie san marino saint marin spain espagne sweden suede switzerland suisse united kingdom royaume uni yugoslavia b yougoslavie b total oceania oceanie american samoa samoa americaines australia australie cook islands iles cook federated states of micronesia etats federes de micronesie fiji fidji french polynesia polynesie francaise guam kiribati mariana islands iles mariannes marshall islands iles marshall nauru new caledonia and dependencies hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april nouvelle caledonie et dependances new zealand nouvelle zelande niue palau papua new guinea papouasie nouvelle guinee samoa solomon islands iles salomon tokelau tonga tuvalu vanuatu wallis and futuna islands iles wallis et futuna total world total total mondial a the above statistics relating to china do not include cases of aids in the province of taiwan les statistiques ci dessus se rapportant a la chine ne comprennent pas cas de sida dans la province de taiwan b refers to republics and areas of the former socialist federal republic of yugoslavia bosnia and herzegovina croatia macedonia montenegro serbia slovenia se refere aux republiques et territoires de l ancienne republique federative socialiste de yougoslavie bosnie herzegovine croatie macedoine montenegro serbie slovenie hicnet medical newsletter page cut here this is the last part internet david stat com fax bitnet atw h asuacad fidonet amateur packet ax wb tpy wb tpy az usa na
sci.med	hicn medical news part cut here once a year for a lifetime video kit this kit includes a minute vhs videotape that presents common misconceptions about mammography it tells of the benefits gains by the early detection of breast cancer jane pauley and phylicia rashad are the narrators kit includes a guide poster flyer and pamphlets on mammography this kit is available directly by writing to modern park street north st petersburg fl additional resources combined health information database chid a computerized bibliographic database developed and managed by agencies of the u s public health service it contains references to health information and health education resources the database provides bibliographic citations and abstracts for journal articles books reports pamphlets audiovisuals product descriptions hard to find information sources and health promotion and education programs under way in state and local health departments and other locations in addition chid provides source and availability information for these materials so that users may obtain them directly at present there are twenty one subfiles on chid the national cancer institute created the cancer patient education subfile in it serves as a resource for the chid user who is interested in identifying patient education programs for specific cancer patient populations as well as for the user who is trying to locate educational resources available for patient or family cancer education citations include the contact person at cancer centers so the user can follow up directly with the appropriate person to access chid check with your local library most medical school university hospital and public libraries subscribe to commercial database vendors hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april final report an integrated oncology workstation revised this book provides a conceptual overview of what a clinical information system for practicing oncologists might include a database of electronic patient chart records combined with access to a knowledge base of information resources such as pdq cancerlit and medline an integration of data and knowledge combined to create a clinical oncology workstation the concept was developed as a means to assist the oncologist and his or her office staff in the daily management of patient care and clinical trials this book can be obtained by contacting dr robert esterhay project officer computer communications branch building room bethesda md scientific information services of the national cancer institute this booklet from the international cancer information center icic describes each icic product or service including scientific journals journal of the national cancer institute and nci monographs specialized current awareness publications cancergrams and oncology overviews and online databases pdq and cancerlit to obtain copies of the booklet write to international cancer information center dept jjj national cancer institute bldg rm bethesda maryland or fax your request to hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april publications for patients available from the nci free copies of the following patient education materials are available in single copy or bulk by calling the nci s publication ordering service cancer cancer prevention chew or snuff is real bad stuff this brochure designed for seventh and eighth graders describes the health and social effects of using smokeless tobacco products when fully opened the brochure can be used as a poster clearing the air a guide to quitting smoking this pamphlet designed to help the smoker who wants to quit offers a variety of approaches to cessation pages diet nutrition cancer prevention the good news this booklet provides an overview of dietary guidelines that may assist individuals in reducing their risks for some cancers it identifies certain foods to choose more often and others to choose less often in the context of a total health promoting diet pages why do you smoke this pamphlet contains a self test to determine why people smoke and suggests alternatives and substitutes that can help them stop early detection breast exams what you should know this pamphlet provides answers to questions about breast cancer screening methods including mammography the medical checkup breast self examination and future technologies includes instructions for breast self examination pages cancer tests you should know about a guide for people and over this pamphlet describes the cancer tests important for people age and older it informs men and women of the exams they should be requesting when they schedule checkups with their doctors it provides a checklist for men and women to record when the cancer tests occur and it describes the steps to follow hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april should cancer be found pages do the right thing get a mammogram this brochure targets black women age or older it describes the importance of regular mammograms in the early detection of breast cancer it states the nci guidelines for mammography once a year for a lifetime this brochure targets all women age or older it describes the importance of regular mammograms in the early detection of breast cancer it states the nci guidelines for mammography questions and answers about breast lumps this pamphlet describes some of the most common noncancerous breast lumps and what can be done about them includes instructions for breast self examination pages questions and answers about choosing a mammography facility this brochure lists questions to ask in selecting a quality mammography facility also discusses typical costs and coverage testicular self examination this pamphlet contains information about risks and symptoms of testicular cancer and provides instructions on how to perform testicular self examination the pap test it can save your life this easy to read pamphlet tells women the importance of getting a pap test it explains who should request one how often it should be done and where to go to get a pap test general research reports in depth reports covering current knowledge of the causes and prevention symptoms detection and diagnosis and treatment of various types of cancer individual reports are available on the following topics bone marrow transplantation cancer of the colon and rectum cancer of the lung cancer of the pancreas melanoma hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april oral cancers the immune system how it works this booklet written at a high school level explains the human immune system for the general public it describes the sophistication of the body s immune responses the impact of immune disorders and the relation of the immune system to cancer therapies present and future pages what you need to know about cancer this series of pamphlets discusses symptoms diagnosis treatment emotional issues and questions to ask the doctor includes glossary of terms and other resources individual pamphlets are available on the following topics bladder bone brain breast cervix colon and rectum dysplastic nevi esophagus hodgkin s disease kidney larynx lung melanoma multiple myeloma non hodgkin s lymphoma oral cancers ovary pancreas prostate skin testis uterus patient education anticancer drug information sheets in spanish english two sided fact sheets in english and spanish provide information about side effects of common drugs used to treat cancer their hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april proper usage and precautions for patients the fact sheets were prepared by the united states pharmacopeial convention inc for distribution by the national cancer institute single sets only may be ordered advanced cancer living each day this booklet addresses coping with a terminal illness by discussing practical considerations for the patient the family and friends pages chemotherapy and you a guide to self help during treatment this booklet in question and answer format addresses problems and concerns of patients receiving chemotherapy emphasis is on explanation and self help pages eating hints recipes and tips for better nutrition during cancer treatment this cookbook style booklet includes recipes and suggestions for maintaining optimum nutrition during treatment all recipes have been tested pages facing forward a guide for cancer survivors this booklet presents a concise overview of important survivor issues including ongoing health needs psychosocial concerns insurance and employment easy to use format includes cancer survivors experiences practical tips recordkeeping forms and resources it is recommended for cancer survivors their family and friends pages patient to patient cancer clinical trials and you this minute videocassette provides simple information for patients and families about the clinical trials process produced in collaboration with the american college of surgeons commission on cancer questions and answers about pain control a guide for people with cancer and their families this booklet discusses pain control using both medical and nonmedical methods the emphasis is on explanation self help and patient participation this booklet is also available from the american cancer society pages radiation therapy and you a guide to self help during treatment this booklet addresses concerns of patients receiving forms of radiation therapy emphasis is on explanation and self help pages hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april taking time support for people with cancer and the people who care about them this sensitively written booklet for persons with cancer and their families addresses the feelings and concerns of others in similar situations and how they have coped pages what are clinical trials all about this booklet is designed for patients who are considering taking part in research for new cancer treatments it explains clinical trials to patients in easy to understand terms and gives them information that will help them decide about participating pages when cancer recurs meeting the challenge again this booklet details the different types of recurrence types of treatment and coping with cancer s return pages breast cancer education series breast biopsy what you should know this booklet discusses biopsy procedures it describes what to expect in the hospital and while awaiting a diagnosis pages breast cancer understanding treatment options this booklet summarizes the biopsy procedure and examines the pros and cons of various types of breast surgery it discusses lumpectomy and radiation therapy as primary treatment adjuvant therapy and the process of making treatment decisions pages mastectomy a treatment for breast cancer this booklet presents information about the different types of breast surgery it explains what to expect in the hospital and during the recovery period following breast cancer surgery breast self examination for mastectomy patients is also described pages after breast cancer a guide to followup care this booklet is for the woman who has completed treatment it explains the importance of checking for possible signs of recurring cancer by receiving regular mammograms getting breast exams from a doctor and continuing monthly breast self exams it offers advice for managing the physical and emotional side effects that may accompany surviving breast hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april cancer pages pediatric cancer education series help yourself tips for teenagers with cancer this magazine style booklet is designed to provide information and support to adolescents with cancer issues addressed include reactions to diagnosis relationships with family and friends school attendance and body image pages hospital days treatment ways this hematology oncology coloring book helps orient the child with cancer to hospital and treatment procedures pages managing your child s eating problems during cancer treatment this booklet contains information about the importance of nutrition the side effects of cancer and its treatment ways to encourage a child to eat and special diets pages talking with your child about cancer this booklet is designed for the parent whose child has been diagnosed with cancer it addresses the health related concerns of young people of different ages it suggests ways to discuss disease related issues with the child pages when someone in your family has cancer this booklet is written for young people whose parent or sibling has cancer it includes sections on the disease its treatment and emotional concerns pages young people with cancer a handbook for parents this booklet discusses the most common types of childhood cancer treatments and side effects and issues that may arise when a child is diagnosed with cancer offers medical information and practical tips gathered from the experience of others pages spanish language publications si desea hablar con un especialista en informacion sobre el cancer por favor llame al cancer cancer prevention hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april a time of change de nina a mujer this bilingual fotonovela was developed specifically for young women it discusses various health promotion issues such as nutrition no smoking exercise and pelvic pap and breast examinations pages datos sobre el habito de fumar y recomendaciones para dejar de fumar this bilingual pamphlet describes the health risks of smoking and tips on how to quit and how to stay quit pages guia para dejar de fumar this booklet is a full color self help smoking cessation booklet prepared specifically for spanish speaking americans it was developed by the university of california san francisco under an nci research grant pages early detection hagase la prueba pap hagalo hoy por su salud y su familia this bilingual brochure tells women why it is important to get a pap test it gives brief clear information about who needs a pap test where to go to get one and how often the pap test should be done hagase un mamograma una vez al ano para toda una vida this bilingual brochure describes the importance of mammograms in the early detection of breast cancer it gives brief information about who is at risk for breast cancer how a mammogram is done and how to get one la prueba pap un metodo para diagnosticar cancer del cuello del utero this booklet in spanish answers questions about the pap test including how often it should be done significance of results and other diagnostic tests and treatments pages lo que usted debe saber sobre los examenes de los senos this booklet in spanish explains the importance of the three actions recommended by the nci to detect breast cancer as early as possible requesting regular mammography getting an annual breast exam from the doctor and performing a monthly breast self exam pages hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april preguntas y respuestas sobre la seleccion de un centro de mamografia this brochure lists questions and answers to ask in selecting a quality mammography facility patient education anticancer drug information sheets in spanish english two sided fact sheets in english and spanish provide information about side effects of common drugs used to treat cancer their proper usage and precautions for patients the fact sheets were prepared by the united states pharmacopeial convention inc for distribution by the national cancer institute single sets only may be ordered datos sobre el tratamiento de quimioterapia contra el cancer this flyer in spanish provides a brief introduction to cancer chemotherapy pages el tratamiento de radioterapia guia para el paciente durante el tratamiento this booklet in spanish addresses the concerns of patients receiving radiation therapy for cancer emphasis is on explanation and self help pages hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april aids news summaries aids daily summary for april to april the centers for disease control and prevention cdc national aids clearinghouse makes available the following information as a public service only providing this information does not constitute endorsement by the cdc the cdc clearinghouse or any other organization reproduction of this text is encouraged however copies may not be sold copyright information inc bethesda md april absence of hiv transmission from an infected orthopedic surgeon journal of the american medical association vol no p von reyn c fordham the risk of hiv transmission from an hiv positive surgeon to patient is extremely low provided that the surgeon strictly adheres to universal infection control procedures write c fordham von reyn et al of the dartmouth hitchcock medical center in lebanon n h the researchers contacted former patients on whom an hiv positive orthopedic surgeon performed invasive procedures between january and june the orthopedic surgeon voluntarily withdrew from practice after testing positive for hiv a total of former patients underwent hiv testing representing percent of patients on whom the orthopedic surgeon performed invasive procedures during the year period patients were tested from each year and from each category of invasive procedure all patients were found to be negative for hiv by enzyme linked immunosorbent assay two former patients reported known hiv infection prior to surgery the examination of aids case registries and vital records neglected to detect cases of hiv infection among former surgical patients the estimated cost of the initial patient notification and testing was with the single most expensive activity being counseling and testing this accounted for percent of the total expense the patient notification and testing were conducted while maintaining the confidentiality of the orthopedic surgeon who was an active participant in the planning and execution of the study notifying patients of the infected surgeon s hiv status is both disruptive and expensive and is not routinely recommended the researchers conclude investigation of potential hiv transmission to the patients of an hiv infected surgeon journal of the american medical association vol hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april no p smith rogers audrey et al the risk of hiv transmission during surgery is so remote that it will be quantified only by gathering data from multiple methodologically similar investigations writes audrey smith rogers et al of the johns hopkins university school of medicine in baltimore md the researchers identified a total of persons in hospital databases who underwent invasive surgical procedures between and and for whom the hiv positive surgeon was listed as the operating surgeon the aids case registries were reviewed for all patients having undergone invasive procedures and death certificates were obtained among the patients were dead had no address had test results known and did not respond to the questionnaire no study patient name was found in reported aids case registries one newly detected hiv positive patient was determined to have been most probably infected in during a transfusion there was no hiv transmission in person hours of surgical exposure suggesting that hiv transmission to patients is unlikely to occur more frequently than once per person hours of surgical exposure the researchers determined there is no evidence to suggest that the surgeon failed to adhere to standard infection control guidelines over percent of the patients with invasive procedures chose to be tested and of those whose results were revealed only one person was found to be infected with hiv the study patient s infection was probably the result of a tainted blood transfusion received in as a result there is no evidence that the transmission of hiv from the hiv positive surgeon to any patient transpired the researchers conclude april drug concerns to share aids data new york times p c kolata gina a total of major pharmaceutical companies have decided in a highly unusual move to share aids drugs and information while the drugs are undergoing early clinical testing dr edward scolnick president of the merck research laboratory in rahway n j arranged the collaboration he said that cooperation between companies seemed increasingly significant as it had become clear that combinations of drugs were likely to be more effective in fighting hiv than any drug used alone the researchers are hopeful that hiv when faced with a combination of several drugs requiring mutation at different sites for resistance to develop will be unable to evolve all the mutations at the same time therefore several drugs taken together or one after the other could halt the spread of hiv currently the drug companies do not know what other drugs their competitors are developing the new agreement allows companies to routinely exchange animal data and safety data on new aids drugs an agreement like this will greatly facilitate hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april companies ability to choose the best drug combinations much faster and in a much more efficient way said scolnick he also said that the collaboration would not violate antitrust laws in creating the agreement merck spoke frequently to members of aids advocacy groups including act up dr daniel hoth director of the division on aids at the national institute of allergy and infectious disease said we re delighted to see the pharmaceutical industry take this step because we think that increasing the information flow will likely accelerate the discovery of better compounds for aids related stories wall street journal p b philadelphia inquirer p a usa today p b the next step in aids treatment nature vol no p maddox john although azt was found to be ineffective in prolonging the lives of people infected with hiv the findings do not indicate that azt should not be administered in people with full blown aids writes columnist john maddox azt has been used in the united states in asymptomatic hiv positive people on the basis that administration of the drug appeared to abate the decline of t cell counts however a report in the lancet demonstrated that azt should not be used early in the course of disease while the cd counts of the people given azt were consistently greater than those of patients receiving only placebo the first three years of follow up have shown that the proportions of people in the two groups progressing to overt aids or even to death were not significantly different at roughly percent the conclusions are that azt is not an effective aids drug in hiv infected individuals and that cd cell count may not be a reliable proxy for the progression to aids in infected people but nothing is implied by the study of the utility of azt in the treatment of those in whom symptoms have already appeared there is no case for abandoning that treatment at least on the evidence now available it is much more alarming that the cd count has proven to be an unreliable mark of the efficacy of drug treatment in hiv infection aids researchers should acknowledge hiv is alive from the beginning of infection and turn it into a workable assay of the progress of disease the general application of such an assay will probably in itself provide a better understanding of the pathogenesis of aids concludes maddox infective and anti infective properties of breastmilk from hiv infected women lancet vol no p van de perre philippe et al a vaccine preparation inducing a persistent immune response of the igm type in the mother s body fluids could be valuable to prevent transmission of hiv from mother to child write philippe van de perre et al of the hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april national aids control program in kigali rwanda the researchers hypothesized that transmission of hiv through breastmilk could be favored by the presence of infected cells by deficiency of anti infective substances in breastmilk or both factors a total of hiv infected women were enrolled at delivery in kigali rwanda milk samples were collected days months and months post partum hiv igg secretory iga and igm were assayed by western blot for the latter two after removal of igg with protein g in the day and month samples the researchers sought viral genome in milk cells by double polymerase chain reaction with three sets of primers gag pol and env at days months and months post partum hiv specific igg was detected in percent percent and percent of breastmilk samples iga in percent percent and percent and igm in percent percent and percent in children who survived longer than months the risk of infection was associated with lack of persistence of igm and iga in their mothers milk the presence of hiv infected cells in the milk days post partum was strongly predictive of hiv infection in the child by both univariate and multivariate analysis the combination of hiv infected cells in breastmilk and a defective igm response was the strongest predictor of infection igm and iga anti hiv in breastmilk may protect against postnatal transmission of hiv the researchers conclude april firms to share aids research in global venture journal of commerce p a a total of fifteen u s and european pharmaceutical companies announced tuesday they will swap drug supplies and information on early stage aids research to hasten the search for combination therapies to fight hiv infection and aids the companies said the unusual move resulted primarily from the increasing concentration of aids research on combination therapies since realizing that hiv is likely to develop resistance to every individual aids drug edward scolnick president of merck co research laboratories led the collaborative effort that took a year of negotiations to come together said participants in addition to merck the other companies involved in the inter company collaboration for aids drug development are bristol myers squibb co burroughs wellcome glaxo inc hoffman la roche eli lilly co pfizer inc smithkline beecham ab astra du pont merck syntex inc boehringer ingelheim miles inc and sigma tau the participants said that all companies involved in aids drug development they were aware of had joined the collaboration and that any company actively involved in hiv anti viral development may participate scolnick said the collaborators would most likely meet every couple of months for a daylong scientific meeting where they will review for one another their preclinical hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april and early clinical data the american foundation for aids research amfar was pleased with the news of the collaboration which it hopes will lead to the development of drug combinations that will reduce viral resistance related story financial times p guidance over hiv infected health care workers lancet vol no p horton richard the united kingdom s department of health recently followed the advice of aids experts that there is no scientific reason for routine hiv testing among health care workers following recent highly publicized reports of health professionals who contracted hiv the department issued revised guidelines on the management of such cases dr kenneth calman chief medical officer said doctors dentists nurses and other health care workers have an ethical duty to seek advice if they have been exposed to hiv infection including if appropriate diagnostic hiv testing he said infected health care workers should not perform invasive procedures that carry even a remote risk of exposing patients to the virus the guidelines end of part internet david stat com fax bitnet atw h asuacad fidonet amateur packet ax wb tpy wb tpy az usa na
sci.med	frequent nosebleeds a from some of the replies to my original posting it s evident that some a people do not secrete enough mucous to keep their nose lining protected include small amounts of hot spicy foods with your meals it s not a cure but many people find it helpful to create extra mucus you may also consider taking a few drops of iodine in juice or water consult your doctor first which is available otc in canada if you have a sedentary lifestyle exercising sometimes helps a from environmental influences ie dry air but i ve had no responses a from anyone with experience with rutin is there another newsgroup that a might have specifics on herbal remedies a a robert allison i tried to e mail you but our board is having internet problems so i m not sure whether you got the information on rutin or not rutin is not a herb but part of the bioflavonoid complex you should generally not take rutin by itself but take the whole bioflavonoid complex instead if you don t and there are some exceptions to that you ll eventually create a hesperidin deficiency which is the other major component of the bioflavonoid complex i found out the hard way years ago when i recommended rutin after it showed deficient in patients who were not deficient in hesperidin be fore a later retest almost always showed a subsequent deficiency in hesperidin which from then on made me always add bioflavonoids to anyone that had very low levels of rutin most of the time people are equally low in rutin and hesperidin so there is really no reason to take rutin by itself but use the whole bioflavonoid complex instead i have several thousand patients taking them with many claiming that they had been helped with hemorrhoids varicose veins chronic nose bleeds aneurysms gastro intestinal bleeding due to drugs etc one patient in desperation took a whole bottle s in one day for his painful bleeding hemorrhoids without any ill effects they are also non toxic in very high amounts that s why they can be safely recommended if you are allergic to citrus fruit they are made from their peels pine bark sources are available as well about of patients tested show a bioflavonoid deficiency with the average daily dosage needed being about mg for major complaints mg day is common in case they cannot be taken because of their size and taste they are big and they don t taste that great a product made from pine bark extract gives you the same effect and the tablets are quite small and taste much better however the cost is about seven times higher for the equivalent effect one mg tablet of the pine bark extract gives you about the same effect as mg of bioflavonoids the name for the pine bark product is pycnogenol some canadian brands carrying bioflavonoids are quest mg big bitter not chewable swiss herbal mg smooth easier swallowing jamieson mg medium bitter chewable sisu mg pycnogenol small easy swallowing give them a try and see what happens and good luck ron roth internet rn rose com rosenet ron roth rosehamilton eating radium has strange results tom said brightly rosereader p entered at rosehamilton rosemail usenet rose media hamilton
sci.med	re pregnency without sex in article stephen mont stephen mont cs missouri edu stephen montgomery smith writes when i was a school boy my biology teacher told us of an incident in which a couple were very passionate without actually having sexual intercourse somehow the girl became pregnent as sperm cells made their way to her through the clothes via persperation was my biology teacher misinforming us or do such incidents actually occur sounds to me like someone was pulling your leg there is only one way for pregnancy to occur intercourse these days however there is also artificial insemination and implantation techniques but we re speaking of natural acts here it is possible for pregnancy to occur if semen is deposited just outside of the vagina i e coitus interruptus but that s about at far as you can get through clothes no way better go talk to your biology teacher kenneth gilbert university of pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not a programmer
sci.med	artificial intelligence in medicine if you have any information on artificial intelligence in medicine then i would appreciate it if you could mail me with whatever it is the informations is needed for a project thank you ian ian jukes bsc computer science hons year the university of brighton janet e mail ipj uk ac bton unix ipj uk ac bton vms
sci.med	sleep in hospitals was re euse of haldol in elderly in article yfqmlek iv co l andrew cmu edu you say i ve seen people in their forties and fifties become disoriented and demented during hospital stays in the examples i ve seen drugs were definitely involved speaking from experience one doesn t need drugs to become disoriented during hospital stays i was in hosp for days in late jan what with general noise at all hours of night staff coming every time i turned over or whatever to check me out i didn t get much sustained sleep at night spent days groggy dozing and all it was from my perspective was that i was tired bobm let s reinvent hospital organization s
sci.med	re localized fat reduction due to exercise question in apr mnemosyne cs du edu hchung nyx cs du edu writes i was just wondering if exercises specific to particular regions of the body such as thighs will basically only tone the thighs or if fat from other parts of the body such as breasts would be affected just as much there are two different mechanisms here toning of muscles and reduction of fat exercises specific to particular muscles will tone only those muscles exercised example look at differences in arm circumferences between pitching arms and non pitching arms in major league pitchers however if exercise also leads to reduction of body fat the loss of body fat will be equally distributed over the entire body there is no way to spot reduce body fat other than surgically through liposuction distribution of body fat is genetically determined sometimes a very flabby muscle will look like fat so when that muscle gains some muscle tone it may appear as though the fat is changing into muscle but really fat and muscle tissues are totally separate and one does not ever change into the other ruth ginzberg rginzberg eagle wesleyan edu philosophy department wesleyan university usa
sci.med	re krillean photography in article apr scorch apana org au bill scorch apana org au bill dowding writes todamhyp charles unlv edu brian m huey writes i think that s the correct spelling i am looking for any information supplies that will allow do it yourselfers to take krillean pictures i m thinking that education suppliers for schools might have a appartus for sale but i don t know any of the companies any info is greatly appreciated krillean photography involves taking pictures of minute decapods resident in the seas surrounding the antarctic or pictures taken by them perhaps bill from oz bill no flame intended but you re way way off base in simple terms kirilian photography registers the electromagnetical fields around objects in simple it takes pictures of your aura greg be still be silent the rest is easy
sci.med	re krillean photography poor person s kirlian photography try this at home hold your hand up to a cold window look closely at the stunning corona effects around your fingertips remove hand from window and observe after image invent crackpot theory to explain the effect
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in article apr vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes i don t like the term quack being applied to a licensed physician david questionable conduct is more appropriately called unethical in my opinion using laetril to treat cancer patients when such treatment has been shown to be ineffective and dangerous cyanide release by the nci hmm this is certainly among the things i would refer to as quack therapy and would tend to refer to any practitioner who prescribed laetrile whether licensed or not as a quack there are unethical behaviors such as ordering unneccessary tests to increase fees which i would not lable as quackish but prescribing known ineffective therapies seems to me to be one of the hallmarks of a quack david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
sci.med	a good place for back surgery hello just one quick question my father has had a back problem for a long time and doctors have diagnosed an operation is needed since he lives down in mexico he wants to know if there is a hospital anywhere in the united states particulary famous for this kind of surgery kind of like houston has a reputation for excellent doctors in eye surgery any additional info or pointers will be appreciated a whole lot thanks in advance gary sheutter at t bell labs
sci.med	re quack quack was re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in article ravpeinnah gap caltech edu ken isis cns caltech edu ken miller writes so if you have any evidence against the hypothesis for example controlled double blind studies showing that the anti fungals don t do any better than sugar water then let s hear it if you don t then what we have is anecdotal and uncontrolled evidence on one side and abject disbelief on the other i don t have any evidence against water from lourdes curing ms i m sure there is anecdotal evidence that it does do you really think that in the absence of a double blind study i should be indifferent to the hypothesis that water from lourdes cures ms for what it s worth i know of only one double blind study of nystatin for candida hypersensitivity syndrome it was published in the new england journal i think and showed no benefit on systemic symptoms though i think it reduced vaginal yeast infections not surprisingly as i recall the yeast crowd had some major objections to the study though i don t remember what they were david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
sci.med	re barbecued foods and health risk hi thought i d add something to the conversation my girlfriend used to work in a lab studying different natural carcinogens she mentioned once about the cancerous effect of barbecued food basically she said that if you eat barbecued foods with strawberries a natural carcinogen the slight carcinogenic properties of both cancel out each other jeff poupore jtpoupor undergrad math uwaterloo ca jeff poupore jtpoupor undergrad math uwaterloo ca
sci.med	re krillean photography in article apr linus mitre org gpivar maestro mitre org greg pivarnik writes in article apr scorch apana org au bill scorch apana org au bill dowding writes krillean photography involves taking pictures of minute decapods resident in the seas surrounding the antarctic or pictures taken by them perhaps bill from oz bill no flame intended but you re way way off base in simple terms kirilian photography registers the electromagnetical fields around objects in simple it takes pictures of your aura greg be still be silent the rest is easy greg no flame intended but i think you just missed one of the rare attempts of humor in sci skeptic krillean against kirilian get it btw i think you re a bit of base yourself since to my knowledge the electromagnetic field around a stone is rather abscent but still a stone has a nice aura on the kirilian photographs don t remember excactly but corona discharge i think is a more fitting expression than aura think you ll find something on this in the skeptic faq cheers jostein
sci.med	re ocd this is to followup my previous reply on this topic which it has been pointed out to me might have been dangerously misleading in two spots i stated that psychotherapy meaning talking therapy and so on was used to treat obsessive compulsive disorder which though sometimes true is misleading it is not often found effective particularly by itself primary treatment today usually consists at least in part of drug therapy the most current theories of this condition attribute it to more to biological causes than psychological in places where this distinction becomes important i mentioned that the dsm iiir mentions impulses as a possible diagnostic marker however this might look like something people associate with psychotic conditions uncontrollable or unpredictable behaviors which is not the case with ocd one of the diagnostic criteria of ocd is that the individual can and does suppress some of their impulses although they are an unending source of anxiety the obsessive thoughts and ritualistic actions usually associated with ocd are most frequently very mundane and predictable closer to a superstitious nature than a dangerous nature for the most part some references one non technical and several technical that someone was kind enough to supply for me but was unable to post themself the boy who couldn t stop washing by judith rapaport technical refs pharmacotherapy of o c disorder donna m jermain and lynn crismon pharmacotherapy epidemiology of ocd seteven a rasmussen and jane eisen j clin psychiatry suppl the waking nightmare an overview of ocd judith l rapoport j clin psychiatry suppl absence of placebo response in ocd matig r mavissakalian bruce jones stephen olson j nerv ment disease vol no and thanks very much to those who supplied constructive criticism to my first post on ocd i hope this helps clarify the parts that were misleading kind regards todd todd i stark stark dwovax enet dec com digital equipment corporation philadelphia pa usa a word is the skin of a living thought olliver wendell holmes jr
sci.med	re krillean photography in article rgnn lli fnnews fnal gov dh fncrd fnal gov don husby writes poor person s kirlian photography try this at home hold your hand up to a cold window look closely at the stunning corona effects around your fingertips remove hand from window and observe after image invent crackpot theory to explain the effect advanced kirlian photography try this at home too get a camera have your subject face you with his her back to the sun take photo observe the glow behind their silhouetted image on the photo invent crackpot theory to explain the effect john mechalas i m not an actor but mechalas gn ecn purdue edu i play one on tv aero engineering purdue university include disclaimer h
sci.med	re mind machines in article c snww ga tripos com homer tripos com webster homer writes i recently learned about these devices that supposedly induce specific brain wave frequencies in their users simply by wearing them the principle underlying these devices is a well establish principle in psychology called entrainment whereby external sensory stimuli influence gross electrical patterns of brain function they are experimental in that people experiment with them and they are not widely if at all used in medicine for therapeutic purposes given the exception of tens and similar units used for external electrical stimulation usually for pain relief not really a light and sound machine they are not experimental in the sense of a specific medical category to that effect as with experimental drugs as the fda does not specifically regulate medical devices in the way it does pharmaceuticals i would think that if they work as reported they would be incredibly useful there are few reliable studies of therapeutic or enhancement effects for mind machines other than those relaxation related effects found with meditation or self hypnosis as well reported benefits are mostly anecdotal and subjective so far so it s hard to generalize about their potential value a pretty good general non technical introduction to a wide variety of these devices may be found in would the buddha wear a walkman some interesting background material names of suppliers and capsule reviews of specific equipment do these mind machines aka light and sound machines work can they induce alpha theta and or delta waves in a person wearing them what research if any has been done on them could they be used in lieu of a tranquilizer or are they just another bit of quackery a more important question might be whether they have enough additional value to be worth investing in biofeedback was found to be a legitimate and reliable effect experimentally under certain conditions in that it demonstrated that we can influence physiological processes previously considered purely autonomic but never panned out as a particularly valuable therapeutic tool because of the skill level required and the subtlety and temporary nature of the effects in most cases maybe someone else has more there used to be a whole mailing list devoted to mind machines somewhere on the net web homer homer tripos com kind regards todd todd i stark stark dwovax enet dec com digital equipment corporation philadelphia pa usa a word is the skin of a living thought olliver wendell holmes jr
sci.med	re krillean photography in article apr linus mitre org gpivar maestro mitre org greg pivarnik writes in article apr scorch apana org au bill scorch apana org au bill dowding writes todamhyp charles unlv edu brian m huey writes i think that s the correct spelling i am looking for any information supplies that will allow do it yourselfers to take krillean pictures i m thinking that education suppliers for schools might have a appartus for sale but i don t know any of the companies any info is greatly appreciated krillean photography involves taking pictures of minute decapods resident in the seas surrounding the antarctic or pictures taken by them perhaps bill from oz bill no flame intended but you re way way off base in simple terms kirilian photography registers the electromagnetical fields around objects in simple it takes pictures of your aura greg flame definitely intended here bill was making fun of the misspelling go look up the word krill also the correct spelling is kirlian it involves taking photographs of corona discharges created by attaching the subject to a high voltage source not of some aura it works equally well with inanimate objects carl j lydick internet carl sol gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol carl disclaimer hey i understand vaxen and vms that s what i get paid for my understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level or below so unless what i m saying is directly related to vax vms don t hold me or my organization responsible for it if it is related to vax vms you can try to hold me responsible for it but my organization had nothing to do with it
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article c krl t dartvax dartmouth edu oldman coos dartmouth edu prakash das writes in article apr llyene jpl nasa gov julie eddie jpl nasa gov julie kangas writes as for how foods taste if i m not allergic to msg and i like the taste of it why shouldn t i use it saying i shouldn t use it is like saying i shouldn t eat spicy food because my neighbor has an ulcer julie it doesn t necessarily follow that you should use it msg or something else for that matter simply because you are not allergic to it for example you might not be allergic to animal fats and like their taste yet it doesn t follow that you should be using them regularly msg might have other bad or good i am not up on knowledge of msg effects on your body in the long run maybe that s reason enough not to use it perhaps i should quit eating mushrooms soya beans and brie cheese which all have msg in them it occurs naturally i m not going to quit eating something that i like just because it might cause me trouble later or causes problems in some people i would much rather avoid stress by not worrying over what goes in my mouth and not spending every day reading conflicting reports of what is good bad for you i may eat some things in quantities that may not be good for me fine i ve made my decision and i don t think it s appropriate for anyone to try to convert me it s for your own good are the most obnoxious and harmful words imo in the english or any other language altho your example of the ulcer is funny it isn t an appropriate comparison at all i think it is i get tired of people saying don t eat x because it s bad well x may not be bad for everyone and even if it is so what give people all the information but don t ram your decisions down their throats julie disclaimer all opinions here belong to my cat and no one else
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in article rgo b et hsdndev harvard edu rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes in article apr vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes i don t like the term quack being applied to a licensed physician david questionable conduct is more appropriately called unethical in my opinion using laetril to treat cancer patients when such treatment has been shown to be ineffective and dangerous cyanide release by the nci hmm this is certainly among the things i would refer to as quack therapy and would tend to refer to any practitioner who prescribed laetrile whether licensed or not as a quack there are unethical behaviors such as ordering unneccessary tests to increase fees which i would not lable as quackish but prescribing known ineffective therapies seems to me to be one of the hallmarks of a quack david rind one of the responsibilities of a licensed physician is to read the medical literature to keep up with changes in medical practice all the clamor over laetril resulted in the nci spending quite a bit of money on clinical trials which proved to me anyway that laetril was ineffective against cancer a physician who continued to use it when better more effective treatments are available may deserve to be called a quack anti fungals are in a different class the big question seems to be is it reasonable to use them in patients with gi distress or sinus problems that could be due to candida blooms following the use of broad spectrum antibiotics gorden rubenfeld through e mail has assured me that most physicians recognize the chance of candida blooms occuring after broad spectrum antibiotic use and they therefore reinnoculate their patients with good bacteria to restore competetion for candida in the body i do not believe that this is yet a standard part of medical practice he deals with critical care patients where fungal infection systemic is a real problem and just because he tries to keep good bacteria in his patients does not mean that all physicians do this i think that aspergillis is more likely to be found in the sinus mucus membranes than is candida women have been known for a very long time to suffer from candida blooms in the vagina and a women is lucky to find a physician who is willing to treat the cause and not give give her advise to use the otc anti fungal creams since candida colonizes primarily in the ano rectal area gi symptoms should be more common than vaginal problems after broad spectrum antibiotic use the problem we have here david is proof that gi discomfort can be caused by a candida bloom the arguement is that without proof no action is warrented medicine has not and probalby never will be practiced this way there has always been the use of conventional wisdom a very good example is kidney stones conventional wisdom because clinical trails have not been done to come up with an effective prevention was that restricitng the intake of calcium and oxalates was the best way to prevent kidney stones from forming clinical trials focused on drugs or ultrasonic blasts to breakdown the stone once it formed through the recent new england j of medicine article we now know that conventional wisdom was wrong increasing calcium intake is better at preventing stone formation than is restricting calcium intake the conventional wisdom in animal husbandry has been that animals need to be reinnoculated with good bacteria after coming off antibiotic therapy if it makes sense for livestock why doesn t it make sense for humans david we are not talking about a dangerous treatment unless you consider yogurt dangerous if this were a standard part of medical practice as gordon r says it is then the incidence of gi distress and vaginal yeast infections should decline marty b
sci.med	cs gas and allergic response ques this question derives from the waco incident could cs gas particles create an allergic response which would result in laryngospasm and asphyxiation especially in children dnc in ok osu com will disavow my opinion and my existence if necessary
sci.med	re krillean photography in article apr scorch apana org au bill scorch apana org au bill dowding writes krillean photography involves taking pictures of minute decapods resident in the seas surrounding the antarctic or pictures taken by them perhaps in article apr linus mitre org gpivar maestro mitre org greg pivarnik writes no flame intended but you re way way off base in simple terms kirilian photography registers the electromagnetical fields around objects in simple it takes pictures of your aura greg no flame intended but you have no discernible sense of humor what bill wrote was intended to be funny it s called a joke greg look into it besides kirilian photography is actually photography of my friend s two year old son kiril perhaps you meant kirlian mark meyer mmeyer dseg ti com texas instruments inc plano tx every day jerry junkins is grateful that i don t speak for ti you have triggered primary defense mechanism blast affirmative
sci.med	re barbecued foods and health risk in article c sqv edb acsu buffalo edu sfegus ubvm cc buffalo edu wrote in article cup portal com mmm cup portal com mark robert thorson writes an odd exception to the rule seems to be the product known as gumbo file this is nothing more than coarsely ground dried sassafras leaves this is not only a natural product but a natural product still in its natural form so maybe that s how they evade delany or maybe a special exemption was made to appease powerful louisiana democrats one possible reason is that file is made with sassafras leaves while root beer was made with sassafras bark or root bark the leaves contain either no or less saffrole than the bark there is also some sort of treatment which putatively removes saffrole from sassafras products i have some concentrated sassafras tea extract which is claimed to have the saffrole removed i think what we have to keep in mind is that even though it may be illegal to commercially produce sell food with carcinogenic substances it is not illegal for people to do such to their own food smoking etc is this true well the last time that i went to the store to buy sassafras bark to make root beer there was a sign saying that it wasn t sold for human consumption also when i asked the person if they had wild cherry bark and wintergreen bark she made a point of telling me that i couldn t buy sassafras for human consumption i find the fact that some people reckless enough to step into an automobile live in fear of dropping dead because of a pork rib quite funny in a sick way eric pepke internet pepke gw scri fsu edu supercomputer computations research institute mfenet pepke fsu florida state university span scri pepke tallahassee fl bitnet pepke fsu disclaimer my employers seldom even listen to my opinions meta disclaimer any society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers
sci.med	re mind machines i use a zygon mind machine as bought in the usa last year although it s no wonder cure for what ail s you it is however very good at stopping you thinking sound strange well suppose you re tired and want to go to bed sleep but your head is full of niggling problems to resolve you lay in the bed and quickly they all come to the surface churning around from one unresolved thing to the next and then back again been there bought the t shirt i slip on the zygon and select a soothing pattern of light sound and quickly i just can t concentrate on the previous stuff your brain s cache kinda get s flushed and you start on a whole new set of stuff a useful addition is the facility to feed the output of a tape player or cd through the box i use new age elevator muzak to enhance the overall effect deffo better than a pill cheers nigel nigel ballard int nigel dataman demon co uk i m pink bournemouth uk cis radio g hoi therefore i m spam
sci.med	patti duke s problem does anyone have information about the struggles that patti duke went through in her personal life with severe mood swings did she have some form of chemical imbalance that triggered these problems i recall that she wrote a book about her troubles does someone have the title of that book
sci.med	tick fever aka rocky mtn spotted any rocky mountain spotted fever experts out there the doctor thinks a friend might have this the question is doesn t the tick have to bite you you frequently find a tick crawling on you after a walk in the woods around here but you tend to notice it before it bites you pulling one out of your skin is something you re not likely to forget can you get the fever without it biting you do they sometimes bite you and then let go so you don t realize you were bitten i know they will let go once they ve had their fill but you certainly would notice this arggh so how do you get the fever if you never pulled a tick off yourself as opposed to finding one merely crawling on you john eyles jge cs unc edu
sci.med	chelation therapy does anyone here know anything about chelation therapy using edta my uncle has emphesema and a doctor wants to try it on him we are wondering if is there any evidence edta chelation therapy is beneficial for his condition or any condition what possible side effects are there how can they be mimimized please respond via e mail to rme cornell edu thanks renee
sci.med	re patti duke s problem in article apr hemlock cray com n cray com writes does anyone have information about the struggles that patti duke went through in her personal life with severe mood swings did she have some form of chemical imbalance that triggered these problems i recall that she wrote a book about her troubles does someone have the title of that book she s published two books about her manic depressive illness call me anna the autobiography of patty duke patty duke and kenneth turan bantam books and a brilliant madness living with manic depressive illness patty duke and gloria hochman bantam books barbara
sci.med	re annual inguinal hernia repair in article jpc avdms msfc nasa gov jpc avdms msfc nasa gov j porter clark wrote synopsis young man with inguianl hernia on one side repaired now has new hernia on other side what gives he asks and he continues of course my wife thinks it s from sitting for long periods of time at the computer reading news there is the possibility that there is some degree of constipation causing chronic straining which has caused the bowel movements the classic problems that are supposed to be looked for in someone with a hernia are constipation chronic cough colon cancer and you re not too young for that and sitting for long periods of time at the computer reading news good luck with your surgery steve holland
sci.med	re heat shock proteins by the way ms olmstead dna is not degraded in the stomach nor under ph of its degraded in the duodenum under approx neutral ph by dnaase enzymes secreted by the pancreas my point check your facts before yelling at other people for not doing so just a friendly suggestion aaj
sci.med	celery and hypertension somewhere or other i read that when a person of chinese heritage was told that he had high blood pressure he responded by eating celery sorry i don t recall the dosage apparently this is supposed to work in reducing hypertension can anyone out there verify this and if it does work does anyone know the appropriate amounts and possible side effects thanks leon traister lmtra uts amdahl com
sci.med	re opinions on allergy hay fever shots in article icbal asuacad bitnet icbal asuacad bitnet writes you might look for an allergy doctor in your area who uses sublingual drops instead of shots for treatment you are given a small bottle of antigens drops are placed under the tongue for minutes my this homeopathic remedies i tried the dander one for a month drops three times a day i didn t notice any change whats so ever how long were you using the drops before you noticed a difference for me this treatment is more expensive because my insurance will cover tradiitional medicine
sci.med	precocious puberty am looking for network access to recent research into treatments for precocious puberty if you know of specifics would appreciate email i have plenty of general textbook type references have a niece whose daughter is afflicted the mother is an rn and has done a rather exhaustive search of printed material pls email suggestions to lumensa lub lamar edu thanx dale parish orange texas is the surface of a planet the lamar s token perpetual student proper place for a developing vox rec dat industrial civilization
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in article apr vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes are in a different class the big question seems to be is it reasonable to use them in patients with gi distress or sinus problems that could be due to candida blooms following the use of broad spectrum antibiotics i guess i m still not clear on what the term candida bloom means but certainly it is well known that thrush superficial candidal infections on mucous membranes can occur after antibiotic use this has nothing to do with systemic yeast syndrome the quack diagnosis that has been being discussed found in the sinus mucus membranes than is candida women have been known for a very long time to suffer from candida blooms in the vagina and a women is lucky to find a physician who is willing to treat the cause and not give give her advise to use the otc anti fungal creams lucky how since a recent article randomized controlled trial of oral yogurt on reducing vaginal candidiasis i ve mentioned to a number of patients with frequent vaginal yeast infections that they could try eating ounces of yogurt daily it turns out most would rather just use anti fungal creams when they get yeast infections yogurt dangerous if this were a standard part of medical practice as gordon r says it is then the incidence of gi distress and vaginal yeast infections should decline again this just isn t what the systemic yeast syndrome is about and has nothing to do with the quack therapies that were being discussed there is some evidence that attempts to reinoculate the gi tract with bacteria after antibiotic therapy don t seem to be very helpful in reducing diarrhea but i don t think anyone would view this as a quack therapy david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
sci.med	resound hearing aids and others i have a fairly severe high frequency hearing loss a recent rough test showed a gently sloping loss to db down at cps then it falls off a cliff to dbs down from cps on this type of loss is difficult to fit i am currently using some old siemens behind the ear aids which keep me roughly functional but leave a lot to be desired recently i had an opportunity to test the widex q behind the ear aids for several weeks these have four independent programs which are intended to be customized for different hearing situations and can be reprogramed i found them to be a definite improvement over my current aids and was about to go ahead with them until another local outfit advertised a free trial of another programmable system called resound unfortunately i was only able to try the resound aids in their office for about minutes and i couldn t compare them head to head with the widex nevertheless it did appear to me that they were superior and i was impressed by what i was able to read about the theory behind them which i will give in a separate posting they also carry the widex aids and had one patient presumably wealthy who decided to go ahead and get the resound even though he had purchased the widex only months ago the problem is that the resound aids are about twice as expensive as the widex and other programmable aids i could take a trip to europe on the difference being a lover of bargains and hating to spend money i am having a hard time persuading myself to go with the resounds i would appreciate any opinions on this and other hearing aids and projections about when and if i might see improvements in technology that aren t quite so expensive rich haller rhaller ns uoregon edu university of oregon eugene or usa
sci.med	re discussions on alt psychoactives in article fpzy s wbom vn u andrew cmu edu charles d nichols cn p andrew cmu edu writes from herzog sierra lbl gov hanan herzog subject discussions on alt psychoactives date apr gmt could the people discussing recreational drugs such as mj lsd mdma etc take their discussions to alt drugs their discussions will receive greatest contribution and readership there the people interested in strictly smart drugs i e nootropics should post to this group the two groups alt drugs alt psychoactives have been used interchangably lately i do think that alt psychoactives is a deceiving name alt psychoactives is supposedly the smart drug newsgroup according to newsgroup lists on the usenet should we establish an alt nootropics or alt sdn smart drugs nutrients i have noticed some posts in sci med nutrition regarding smart nutrients we may lower that groups burden as well i beg to disagree with you on this subject if i recall correctly alt drugs was being flodded by posts like how do i grow mj how do i use a bong wow man i just had the coolest trip etc there were quite a few people out there who were versed in pharmacology and biology who wanted to discuss centrally active substabces at a higher level without all the other crap filling the bandwidth i would suggest that you proceed to create a newsgroup dedicated to nootropics if you must have one dedicated to them and leave alt psychoactives to the discussion of psychoactives including nootropics which are but a small portion of the realm of centrally active substances i was wondering if a group called sci pharmacology would be relevent this would be used for a more formal discussion about pharmacological issues pharmacodynamics neuropharmacology etc just an informal proposal i don t know anything about the net politics for adding a newsgroup etc more alt psychoactives stuff deleted marc andersom spot colorado edu
sci.med	resound hearing aid theory as i understand it the following is based on copies i was given of some articles published in hearing instruments i would appreciate any comments about this and other new technology for hearing aids the resound system was developed on the basis of some research at at t and appears to take a different approach from other aids it appears to me that a new programmable aid like the widex just uses a more flexible and programmable version of the classical approach of amplifying some parts of the spectrum more than others and adding some compression to try and help out in noisy situations the major difference in the resound approach is that it divides the spectrum into low and high frequencies splitting point is programmable apparently based on the fact that lots of vowel information can be found in the low frequencies while the important consonant information unfortunately for me is in the high frequencies the two bands then are treated with different compression schemes which are programable they have also developed a new fitting algorythm that builds on what they call abnormal growth of loudness this latter is interesting and fits my own personal experience though i think the phrase is missleading what appears to be the case is that as you exceed the minimum threshold for a person with hearing loss the deficit becomes progresslively less compared to normals and by the time you reach the too loud point the sensitivity curves appear to converge this means that if you just boost all sound levels you are overloading at the high end for people with hearing losses hence what you want is progressively less amplification as the signal get closer to the maximum tolerable point you want to boost low volume sounds more than high and do so potentially differently for the low and high frequency parts of the spectrum specially for someone like me who is relatively normal up to cps and then falls off a cliff aids with simple compressors don t descriminate between energy in the low and high frequencies and can therefor compress useful high frequency information because of high volume of low frequency components particularly impressive was the resound performance with whispered speech and in simulated restaurant noise situations rich haller rhaller ns uoregon edu university of oregon eugene or usa
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes to candida blooms following the use of broad spectrum antibiotics gorden rubenfeld through e mail has assured me that most physicians recognize the chance of candida blooms occuring after broad spectrum antibiotic use and they therefore reinnoculate their patients with good bacteria to restore competetion for candida in the body i do not believe that this is yet a standard part of medical practice nor is it mine what i tried to explain to marty was that it is clearly understood that antibiotic exposure is a risk factor for fungal infections which is not the same as saying bacteria prevent fungal infections marty made this sound like a secret known only to veternarians and biochemists anyone who has treated a urinary tract infection knowns this at some centers pre op liver transplant patients receive bowel decontamination directed at retaining good anaerobic flora in an attempt to prevent fungal colonization in this soon to be high risk group i also use lactobacillus to treat enteral nutrition associated diarrhea that may be in part due to alterations in gut flora however it is not part of my routine practice to reinnoculate patients with good bacteria after antibiotics i have seen no data on this practice preventing or treating fungal infections in at risk patients whether or not it is a logical extension from the available observations i ll leave to those of you who base strong opinions and argue over such speculations in the absence of clinical trials one place such therapy has been described is in treating particularly recalcitrant cases of c difficile colitis not a fungal infection there are case reports of using stool ie someone elses enemas to repopulate the patients flora don t try this at home not give give her advise to use the otc anti fungal creams since candida colonizes primarily in the ano rectal area gi symptoms should be more common than vaginal problems after broad spectrum antibiotic use except that it isn t at least symptomatically apparent disease medicine has not and probalby never will be practiced this way there has always been the use of conventional wisdom a very good example is kidney stones conventional wisdom because clinical trails have not been done to come up with an effective prevention was that restricitng the intake of calcium and oxalates was the best way to prevent kidney stones from forming clinical trials focused on drugs or ultrasonic blasts to breakdown the stone once it formed through the recent new england j of medicine article we now know that conventional wisdom was wrong increasing calcium intake is better at preventing stone formation than is restricting calcium intake seems like this is an excellent argument for ignoring anecdotal conventional wisdom a euphemism for no data and doing a good clinical trial like au dismukes w e wade j s lee j y dockery b k hain j d ti a randomized double blind trial of nystatin therapy for the candidiasis hypersensitivity syndrome see comments so n engl j med dec p psychological tests results the three active treatment regimens and the all placebo regimen significantly reduced both vaginal and systemic symptoms p less than but nystatin did not reduce the systemic symptoms significantly more than placebo conclusions in women with presumed candidiasis hypersensitivity syndrome nystatin does not reduce systemic or psychological symptoms significantly more than placebo consequently the empirical recommendation of long term nystatin therapy for such women appears to be unwarranted does this trial address every issue raised here no jon noring was not surprised at this negative trial since they didn t use sporanox despite crook s recommendation for nystatin maybe they didn t avoid those carbohydrates the conventional wisdom in animal husbandry has been that animals need to be reinnoculated with good bacteria after coming off antibiotic therapy if it makes sense for livestock why doesn t it make sense for humans david we are not talking about a dangerous treatment unless you consider yogurt dangerous if this were a standard part of medical practice as gordon r says it is then the incidence of gi distress and vaginal yeast infections should decline marty you ve also changed the terrain of the discussion from empiric itraconazole for undocumented chronic fungal sinusitis with systemic hypersensitivity symptoms noring syndrome to the yoghurt and vitamin therapy of undocumented candida enteritis elaine palmer syndrome with systemic symptoms there is significant difference between the cost and risk of these two empiric therapeutic trials are we talking about real candida infections the whole yeast connection hypothesis the efficacy of routine bacterial repopulation in humans or the ability of anecdotally effective therapies challenged by a negative randomized trial to confirm an etiologic hypothesis post hoc ergo propter hoc we can t seem to focus in on a disease a therapy or a hypothesis under discussion i m lost
sci.med	pms can it be prevented by a diet change this question came up in sci med nutrition and i m posting my answer here only medical schools in the u s teach courses on human nutrition we have already seen what a lack of nutrition education can do when candida and kidney stones present themselves to the medical community i think that the best example of where u s medicine is really missing the mark when it comes to a knowledge of nutrition is pms so many women and their husbands suffer from this disorder that it is really criminal that most physicians in the u s are not taught that pms is primarily caused by diet and diet changes can prevent it from ever happpening before shooting your flames read the entire article and then decide if flaming is justified from a poster in sci medi nutrition in a psychological anthropology course i am taking we got sidetracked onto a short conversation about pms some rumors shared by several of the students included ideas that vitamin levels sugar intake and caffeine intake might affect pms symptoms is there any data on this or is it just so much hooey many thanks michael i ve wanted to reply to this post ever since i saw it but i got side tracked with candida pms is a lot like candida blooms most physicians don t recognize it as a specific disease entity here is everything that you would ever want to know about pms premenstrual syndrome has been divided into four specific subgroups pmt a anxiety pmt d depression anxiety depression irritability forgetfulness insomnia confusion depression lethargy pmt c craving pmt h hyperhydration craving for sweets weight gain increased appetite breast congestion and tenderness sugar ingestion causes abdominal bloating and tenderness headache edema of the face and extremities palpitations fatigue or fainting pmt a is characterized by elevated blood estrogen levels and low progesterone levels during the luteal phase of a women s cycle pmt c is caused by the ingestion of large amounts of refined simple carbohydrates during the luteal phase of a women s cycle there is increased glucose tolerance with a flat glucose curve after oral glucose challenge the metabolic findings believed to be responsible for pmt c are a low magnesium and a low prostaglandin e this condition of hypoglycemia is not unique to pms but there are a number of different causes of hypoglycemia magnesium and pge seem to be specific to pms hypoglycemia a am j psychiatry unrefined complex carbohydrate should be substituted for sugar magnesium supplementation and alpha linoleic acid supplementation increased to of the total calories using safflower oil or evening primrose oil as sources of alpha linoleic acid pmt d is characterized by elevated progesterone levels during the midluteal phase of a women s cycle another cause of pmt d has been found to be lead toxicity in women without elevated progesterone levels during the midluteal phase effect of metal ions on the binding of estridol to human endometrial cystol fertil steril pmt h is associated with water and salt retention along with an elevated serum aldosterone level salt restriction b magnesium and vitamin e for breast tenderness have all been effective in treating pmt h this general discussion of the pms syndromes came form a management of the premenstrual tension sundromes rational for a nutritional approach a year in nutritional medicine j bland ed keats publishing b nutritional factors in the etiology of premenstrual tension syndromes j reprod med c premenstrual tension prob obstet gynecol treatment has traditionally involved progesterone administration if you can find a doctor who will treat you for pms just about as hard as finding one that will treat you for candida blooms while progesterone will work supplementation with vitamins and minerals works even better there really has been an awful lot of research done on pms much more than candida blooms many of these studies have been what are called experimental controlled studies the type of rigorous clinical studies that doctors like to see done here are a few of these studies carbohydrate experimental controlled study effect of a low fat high carbohydrate diet on symptoms of cyclical mastopathy lancet pts with severe persistent cyclical mastopathy of at least years duration were randomly selected to receive specific training to reduce dietary fat to of total calories and increase complex carbohydrate ingestion or given general dietary advise with no training after months there was a significant reduction in the severity of the breast swelling and tenderness in the trained group as reported by self reported symptoms as well as physical exams which quantitated the degree of breast swelling tenderness and nodularity vitamin a experimental controlled study the use of vitamin a in premenstrual tension acta obstet gynecol scand pts with severe recurring pms received to iu vitamin a daily or a placebo serum retinol levels were monitored and high dose supplementation was discontinued when evidence of toxicity occured serum retinol above ug ml the intent of the study was to load the liver up with vitamin a and get a normal pool size iu to iu and then see if this normal vitamin a pool could prevent pms getting the high dose vitamin a had complete remission of the symptoms of pms only getting the placebo reported getting complete relief of pms sysmptoms of the vitamin a treated group reported no improvement in pms symptoms experimental controlled study premenstrual tension treated with vitamin a j clinical endocrinology pts received iu of vitamin a daily starting on day of their cycle with supplementation continuing until the onset of pms symptoms after months all pts reported a significant improvement in pms symptoms vitamin a supplementation was stopped once evidence of toxicity was demonstrated and all pts were followed for one year after high dose vitamin a supplementation was stopped pms symptoms did not reoccur in any of these pts for upto one year after the vitamin a supplementation was stopped most americans do not have a normal store of vitamin a in their liver these studies and several others were designed to see if getting a normal store of vitamin a into the liver could eliminate pms of all the vitamins given for pms vitamin a b and vitamin e vitamin a has shown the best single effect this is probably because vitamin a is involved in steroid estrogen progesterone metabolism in the liver getting your liver full of vitamin a seems to be one of the best things that you can do to prevent the symptoms of pms but vitamin a is toxic and you don t want to be trying to do this without being seen by a physician who can monitor you for vitamin a toxicity vitamin b experimental double blind crossoverr study pyridoxine vitamin b and the premenstrual syndrome a randomized crossover trial j r coll gen pract women aged with moderate to severe pms randomly received mg b daily or placebo after months the groups were switched and followed for another months b had a significant effect on the emotional aspects of pms depression irritability and tiredness other symptoms of pms were not significanttly affected by b supplementation experimental double blind study the efects of vitamin b supplementation on premenstrual sysmptoms obstet gynecol pts with moderate to severe pms received mg b daily or placebo for months analysis of convergence showed that b significantly improved premenstrual symptoms related to the autonomic nervous system dizziness and vomiting as well as behavior changes poor mental performance decreased social interaction anxiety depression and water retention were not improved by b supplementation vitamin b is below the rda for both american men and women birth control pills and over different drugs increase the b requirement in man women on birth control pills should be supplemented with mg of b per day the dose should be increased if symptoms of pms appear dr david r rubinow who heads the biological psychiatry branch of nimh was quoted in clin psychiatry news december as stating that b should be considered the first line drug for pms over progesterone and if the patient does not respond then other treatments should be tried vitamin b can be toxic nerve damage if consumed in doses of mg or more each day vitamin e experimental double blind study efficacy of alpha tocopherol in the treatment of premenstrual syndrome j reprod med pts received iu vitamin e daily for cycles or a placebo vitamin e treated pts had who reported a significant reduction in physical symptoms weight gain and breast tenderness while the placebo group had who reported a significant reduction in physical symptoms the vitamin e group reported that had a significant reduction in anxiety versus for the placebo group for depression the vitamin e group had with a significant decrease in depression compared with for the placebo group experimental double blind study the effect of alpha tocopherol on premenstrual symptomalogy a double blind study j am coll nutr pts with benign breast disease and pmt randomly received vitamin e at iu iu or iu daily or placebo after months of supplementation iu of vitamin e or higher significantly improved pmt a and pmt c the iu dose was needed to significantly improve pmt d no dose of vitamin e significantly improved pmt h other studies have shown that a higher vitamin e doses will relieve pmt h symptoms magnesium experimental double blind study magnesium prophylaxis of menstrual migraine effects on itracellular magnesium headache pts with perimenstrual headache received mg daily of magnesium as magnesium pyrrolidone carboxylic acid or a placebo treatment was started on the th day of the cycle and continued until menstruation after months the pain total index was significantly lower in the magnesium group magnesium treatment was also assocoiated with a significant reduction in the menstrual distress questionnaire scores pretreatment magnesium levels in lymphocytes and polymorphonuclear leukocytes were significantly lower in this group of pts compared to control women who did not suffer from pms after treatment magnesium levels in these cells was raised into the normal range experimental double blind study oral magnesium successfully relieves premenstrual mood changes obstet gynecol pts aged randomly received either magnesium carboxylic acid mg of mg per day or a placebo from the th day of the cycle to the onset of the menstrual flow after cycles both groups received magnesium the menstrual distress questionnaire score of the cluster pain was significantly reduced during the second cycle month for the magnesium treatment group as well as the placebo group once they were switched to magnesium supplementation in addition the total score on the menstrual distress questionnaire was significantly decreased by magnesium supplementation the authors suggest that magnesium supplemenation should become a routine treatment for the mood changes that occur during pms there are numerous observational studies that have been published in the medical literature which also suggest that pms is primarily a disorder that arises out of a hormone imbalance that is dietary in nature but since observational studies are considered by most physicians in sci med to be anecdotal in nature i have not bothered to cite them there are also over a half dozen good experimental studies that have been done on multivitamin and mineral supplementation to prevent pms i ve chosen the best specific studies on individual vitamins and minerals to try to point out that pms is primarily a nutritional disorder but doctors don t recognize nutritional disorders unless they can see clinical pathology beri beri pellagra scruvy etc pms is probably the best reason why every doctor being trained in the u s should get a good course on human nutrition pms is really only the tip if the iceberg when it comes to nutritional disorders it s time that medicine woke up and smelled the roses here s some studies which show the importance in multivitamin mineral supplementation and or diet change in preventing pms experimental study effect of a nutritional programme on premenstrual syndrome a retrospective analysis complement med res pts were given dietary instructions and supplemented with optivite r plus additional vitamin c vitamin e magnesium zinc and primrose oil the dietary instructions were to take the supplements and switch to a low fat complex carbohydrate diet on a retrospective analysis of the pts reported an improvement in their pms symptoms with of the sample stating that they no longer suffered from pms experimental double blind study role of nutrition in managing premenstrual tension syndromes j reprod med a low fat high complex carbohydrate diet along with optivite supplementation significantly decreased pms scores compared with diet change and placebo after months on the experimental program the vitamin mineral supplementated group had significantly decreased estradiol and increased progesterone in serum during the midlutel phase of their cycle experimental double blind study clinical and biochemical effects of nutritional supplementation on the premenstrual syndrome j reprod med pts randomly given optivite tablets per day or a placebo the treated groups showed a significant decrease in pms symptoms compared to the placebo another group of pts got optivite tablets per day or placebo for this second group of patients no significant effect of supplementation on pms symptoms was observed martin banschbach ph d professor of biochemistry and chairman department of biochemistry and microbiology osu college of osteopathic medicine w th st tulsa ok without discourse there is no remembering without remembering there is no learning without learning there is only ignorance
sci.med	re help reflux esophagitis please post your results a close friend has this condition and has asked these same questions
sci.med	re pregnency without sex in article stephen mont stephen mont cs missouri edu stephen montgomery smith writes when i was a school boy my biology teacher told us of an incident in which a couple were very passionate without actually having sexual intercourse somehow the girl became pregnent as sperm cells made their way to her through the clothes via persperation was my biology teacher misinforming us or do such incidents actually occur ohboy here we go again and one wonders why the american education system is in such abysmal shape
sci.med	re pregnency without sex in article blue cis pitt edu kxgst pitt edu kenneth gilbert writes in article stephen mont stephen mont cs missouri edu stephen montgomery smith writes when i was a school boy my biology teacher told us of an incident in which a couple were very passionate without actually having sexual intercourse somehow the girl became pregnent as sperm cells made their way to her through the clothes via persperation was my biology teacher misinforming us or do such incidents actually occur sounds to me like someone was pulling your leg there is only one way for pregnancy to occur intercourse these days however there is also artificial insemination and implantation techniques but we re speaking of natural acts here it is possible for pregnancy to occur if semen is deposited just outside of the vagina i e coitus interruptus but that s about at far as you can get through clothes no way better go talk to your biology teacher kenneth gilbert university of pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not a programmer what is the likely hood of conception if sperm is deposited just outside the vagina ie chance j e n n i f e r s c h e i b e r email scheiber sage cc purdue edu school of nursing purdue university
sci.med	re krillean photography in article rgrsvinnmpr gap caltech edu carl sol gps caltech edu writes greg flame definitely intended here bill was making fun of the misspelling go look up the word krill also the correct spelling is kirlian it involves taking photographs of corona discharges created by attaching the subject to a high voltage source not of some aura it works equally well with inanimate objects true but what about showing the missing part of a leaf is this corona discharge that is a dry turtle that turtle is not moist ezra story a student at rit and eas ultb isc rit edu his trusty mailing address
sci.med	thermogenics hi i m an avid dieter and the new miracle drug seems to involve thermo genics the drug is claimed to stimulate the brown fat to burn food creating eat as opposed to the fat being stored there are all sorts of warnings about fevers elevated blood pressure and heart rate ect the silver lining is that apparently some weight loss does not require a change in diet is this possible are the pills dangerous or just hoaxes karen
sci.med	theophylline ephedrine and water bio availability does anyone know if either theophylline or ephedrine or the two in combination can reduce the body s ability to make use of available water i had kind of an odd experience on a group hike recently becoming dehyrated after about hours of rigorous hiking despite having brought gallons of water c liters i drank close to twice as much as anyone else and no one else was dehydrated i don t think general physical condition was an issue since i was in at least the middle of the pack in terms of general stamina so far as i could tell it may be that i just plain need more water than most people but i am wondering if theophylline and or ephedrine might be aggravating things i took a couple of primatene tablets during the hike to control asthma mg ephedrine mg theophylline i gather that both those drugs are diuretics so now i m wondering does that mean they can reduce the body s ability to utilize available water would it be a particularly stupid thing to take that medication during hot weather exercise i always assumed diuresis just meant you urinated a lot but that wasn t the case yesterday
sci.med	re chelation therapy in article rh seinnfkc newsstand cit cornell edu renee rme cornell edu writes does anyone here know anything about chelation therapy using edta my uncle has emphesema and a doctor wants to try it on him we are wondering if is there any evidence edta chelation therapy is beneficial for his condition or any condition what possible side effects are there how can they be mimimized please respond via e mail to rme cornell edu thanks renee edta chelation therapy has been used by some physicians to try to remove calcium from calcified plaques in the arterial system not approved for such use there is also the possibility that lung tissue in patients with lung disease has become calcified chest x rays would show this there are side effects to the use of edta because it is not specific for calcium it also binds other minerals i think that there have been some deaths when edta chelation therapy has been used because of mineral imbalances that were not detected and corrected in animal studies the best way to remove calcium from plaques in rabbits was to supplement the rabbits with vitamin c and magnesium rabbits already synthesize their own vitamin c the extra vitamin c was given in their diets to help the magnesium displace the calcium from the plaques the calcification process that occurs in both plaques and the lung probably can be prevented if magnesium is used in supplemental form most patietns with calcium deposits are found to be deficient in calcium magnesium interrationships in ischemic heart disease a review am j clin nutr supplementation with magnesium will prevent clacification of blood vessels the importance of magnesium deficiency in cardiovascular disease am heart j the need to measure the serum concentration in all patients with heat disease cannot be overemphasized this is a review article effect of dietary magnesium on development of atherosclerosis in cholesterol fed rabbits atherosclerosis magnesium supplementation greatly decreased the formation of plaques in rabbits feed a diet that had by weight cholesterrol added to their normal food since edta will also bind magnesium i ve never really liked it s use for the reversal of athersclerosis or now apparently in emphesema patients marty b
sci.med	need info on circumcision medical cons and pros i need information on the medical including emotional pros and cons of circumcision at birth i am especially interested in references to studies that indicate disadvantages or refute studies that indicate advantages a friend who is a medical student is writing a survey paper and apparently the studies she has run into are all for circumcision the main argument being a lower risk of penile cancer please email responses as i am not a frequent reader of either group i will summarize to the net gunnar blix good advice is one of those insults that blix cs uiuc edu ought to be forgiven unknown gunnar blix good advice is one of those insults that blix cs uiuc edu ought to be forgiven unknown
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in article rhb cf hsdndev harvard edu rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes in article apr vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes are in a different class the big question seems to be is it reasonable to use them in patients with gi distress or sinus problems that could be due to candida blooms following the use of broad spectrum antibiotics i guess i m still not clear on what the term candida bloom means but certainly it is well known that thrush superficial candidal infections on mucous membranes can occur after antibiotic use this has nothing to do with systemic yeast syndrome the quack diagnosis that has been being discussed found in the sinus mucus membranes than is candida women have been known for a very long time to suffer from candida blooms in the vagina and a women is lucky to find a physician who is willing to treat the cause and not give give her advise to use the otc anti fungal creams lucky how since a recent article randomized controlled trial of oral yogurt on reducing vaginal candidiasis i ve mentioned to a number of patients with frequent vaginal yeast infections that they could try eating ounces of yogurt daily it turns out most would rather just use anti fungal creams when they get yeast infections yogurt dangerous if this were a standard part of medical practice as gordon r says it is then the incidence of gi distress and vaginal yeast infections should decline again this just isn t what the systemic yeast syndrome is about and has nothing to do with the quack therapies that were being discussed there is some evidence that attempts to reinoculate the gi tract with bacteria after antibiotic therapy don t seem to be very helpful in reducing diarrhea but i don t think anyone would view this as a quack therapy david rind yogurt contains lactobacillus acidophilus and l bulgaricus l acidophilus is the major bacteria in the vaginal tract and is primarily responsible for keeping the vaginal tract acidic and yeast free most of the commercial yogurt sold in the u s has a very low l acidophilus and l bulgaricus count neither of these bacteria are obligate anaerobes with are much more important in dealing with the diarrhea problem gordon r has told me through e mail that he gives his patients l acidophilus and several different obligate anaerobes which set up shop in the colon but he hasn t told me which ones yet the lactobacillus genera are mostly facultative anaerobes and will set up shop where they have access to oxygen if given a chance mouth anus sinus cavity and vagina having these good bacteria around will greatly decrease the chance of candida blooms in the anal region or the vagina i have not proposed a systemic action for candida blooms i know that others swear that all kinds of symptoms arise from the evil yeast blooms in the body i m not ready to buy that yet i do believe that complications at specific sites vagina anal and maybe lower colon sinus and mouth can result from antibiotic use which removes the competing bacteria from these sites and thus lets candida grow unchecked restoring the right bacterial balance is the best way in my opinion to get rid of the problem anti fungals a low carbohydrate diet and vitamin a supplementation may all help to minimize the local irritation until the good bacteria can take over control of the food supply again and lower the ph to basically starve the candida out marty b
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in article rhfrkinn shelley u washington edu nodrog hardy u washington edu gordon rubenfeld writes banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes to candida blooms following the use of broad spectrum antibiotics gorden rubenfeld through e mail has assured me that most physicians recognize the chance of candida blooms occuring after broad spectrum antibiotic use and they therefore reinnoculate their patients with good bacteria to restore competetion for candida in the body i do not believe that this is yet a standard part of medical practice nor is it mine what i tried to explain to marty was that it is clearly understood that antibiotic exposure is a risk factor for fungal infections which is not the same as saying bacteria prevent fungal infections marty made this sound like a secret known only to veternarians and biochemists anyone who has treated a urinary tract infection knowns this at some centers pre op liver transplant patients receive bowel decontamination directed at retaining good anaerobic flora in an attempt to prevent fungal colonization in this soon to be high risk group i also use lactobacillus to treat enteral nutrition associated diarrhea that may be in part due to alterations in gut flora however it is not part of my routine practice to reinnoculate patients with good bacteria after antibiotics i have seen no data on this practice preventing or treating fungal infections in at risk patients whether or not it is a logical extension from the available observations i ll leave to those of you who base strong opinions and argue over such speculations in the absence of clinical trials one place such therapy has been described is in treating particularly recalcitrant cases of c difficile colitis not a fungal infection there are case reports of using stool ie someone elses enemas to repopulate the patients flora don t try this at home not give give her advise to use the otc anti fungal creams since candida colonizes primarily in the ano rectal area gi symptoms should be more common than vaginal problems after broad spectrum antibiotic use except that it isn t at least symptomatically apparent disease medicine has not and probalby never will be practiced this way there has always been the use of conventional wisdom a very good example is kidney stones conventional wisdom because clinical trails have not been done to come up with an effective prevention was that restricitng the intake of calcium and oxalates was the best way to prevent kidney stones from forming clinical trials focused on drugs or ultrasonic blasts to breakdown the stone once it formed through the recent new england j of medicine article we now know that conventional wisdom was wrong increasing calcium intake is better at preventing stone formation than is restricting calcium intake seems like this is an excellent argument for ignoring anecdotal conventional wisdom a euphemism for no data and doing a good clinical trial like au dismukes w e wade j s lee j y dockery b k hain j d ti a randomized double blind trial of nystatin therapy for the candidiasis hypersensitivity syndrome see comments so n engl j med dec p psychological tests results the three active treatment regimens and the all placebo regimen significantly reduced both vaginal and systemic symptoms p less than but nystatin did not reduce the systemic symptoms significantly more than placebo conclusions in women with presumed candidiasis hypersensitivity syndrome nystatin does not reduce systemic or psychological symptoms significantly more than placebo consequently the empirical recommendation of long term nystatin therapy for such women appears to be unwarranted does this trial address every issue raised here no jon noring was not surprised at this negative trial since they didn t use sporanox despite crook s recommendation for nystatin maybe they didn t avoid those carbohydrates the conventional wisdom in animal husbandry has been that animals need to be reinnoculated with good bacteria after coming off antibiotic therapy if it makes sense for livestock why doesn t it make sense for humans david we are not talking about a dangerous treatment unless you consider yogurt dangerous if this were a standard part of medical practice as gordon r says it is then the incidence of gi distress and vaginal yeast infections should decline marty you ve also changed the terrain of the discussion from empiric itraconazole for undocumented chronic fungal sinusitis with systemic hypersensitivity symptoms noring syndrome to the yoghurt and vitamin therapy of undocumented candida enteritis elaine palmer syndrome with systemic symptoms there is significant difference between the cost and risk of these two empiric therapeutic trials are we talking about real candida infections the whole yeast connection hypothesis the efficacy of routine bacterial repopulation in humans or the ability of anecdotally effective therapies challenged by a negative randomized trial to confirm an etiologic hypothesis post hoc ergo propter hoc we can t seem to focus in on a disease a therapy or a hypothesis under discussion i m lost candida can do that to you gordon i think that the best clinical trial for candida blooms would involve giving women with chronic vaginal candida blooms l acidophilus orally and see it it can decrease the frequency and extent of candida blooms in the vagina since most of the candida seems to be migrating in from the anal region and l acidophilus should be able keep the candida in check if it can make it through the intestinal tract and colonize in the anus where it will have access to oxygen just like it does in the vagina as much stuff as there is in the lay press about l acidophilus and vaginal yeast infections i m really amazed that someone has not done a clinical trial yet to check it out the calcium and kidney stone story is not a good reason to throw all conventional wisdom out the window where would medicine be if conventional wisdom had not been used to develop many of the standard medical practices that could not be confirmed through clinical trials the clinical trial is a very new arrival on the medical scene and a very important one the lack of proof that reinnoculation with good bacteria after antibiotic use is important to the health of a patient is no reason to dismiss it out of hand especially if reinnoculation can be done cleaply and safely like it is in animal husbandry marty b
sci.med	how to gain access to whomever who can help me i am a doctor from kota bharu kelantan malaysia i have recently hooked up my private home computer to email via the local telephone company i am really interested in corresponding with other doctors or medical researchers through email i also hope to be able to subscribe to a news network on medicine can someone please tell me what i should do i am completely new to this and have no idea about the vast capabilities of email thank you for your attention
sci.med	re pregnency without sex in article stephen mont stephen mont cs missouri edu stephen montgomery smith writes when i was a school boy my biology teacher told us of an incident in which a couple were very passionate without actually having sexual intercourse somehow the girl became pregnent as sperm cells made their way to her through the clothes via persperation was my biology teacher misinforming us or do such incidents actually occur sperm deposited near the entrance of the vagina has been known to cause pregnancy even in the presence of a hymen i doubt that sperm could make it through a layer of cloth then find the right path to a waiting ovum but it might be possible so it is possible for a woman to be both virgin and pregnant also some hymens are sufficiently loose to allow near normal intercourse without rupturing the problem when investigating these phenomenae is of course getting an honest account of what exactly happened philippe
sci.med	re frozen shoulder and lawn mowing in article apr ux cts eiu edu cfaks ux cts eiu edu alice sanders writes ihave had a frozen shoulder for over a year or about a year it is still partially frozen and i am still in physical therapy every week but the pain has subsided almost completely until last week when i mowed the lawn for twenty minutes each two days in a row i have a push type power mower the pain started back up a little bit for the first time in quite a while and i used ice and medicine again can anybody explain why this particular activity which does not seem to stress me very much generally should cause this shoulder problem you need to use your shoulder muscles to push the mower if you haven t been doing much exercise as i suppose you haven t then a constant minute long effort can cause stiffness and cramps philippe
sci.med	occupational injuries and disease workers memorial day here is a press release from the american federation of state county and municipal employees unions point to deadly workplaces afscme other unions commemorate workers memorial day to national desk labor writer contact janet rivera of the american federation of state county and municipal employees afl cio washington april the american federation of state county and municipal employees afscme and other unions of the afl cio on wednesday april will commemorate the fifth annual workers memorial day a day to pay homage to the million workers who are killed injured or diseased on the job this year afscme will focus its workers memorial day efforts an the dangerous environment in which corrections officers must work earlier this month an afscme corrections officer robert vallandingham was killed by inmates who overtook the corrections facility in lucasville ohio the law and order agenda of the s has resulted in a steady increase in the prison population for the past five years on jn the prison population was projections show a continued increase in the number of inmates with an expected prison population of in the conditions which this burgeoning prison population has created for corrections officers is partially reflected in the number of assaults by inmates against staff assaults against staff increased dramatically between and and remain high in there were assaults by inmates against staff compared to such assaults in the increased number of inmates has brought on the dangerous combination of overcrowding and understaffing for example in ohio officer to inmate ratio is to the second worst ratio in the nation the national average is to other health and safety issues facing corrections officers include aids hepatitis b tuberculosis stress and chemical hazards afscme has more than members who work in the nation s federal state and local correctional facilities correction officers are not alone in performing their jobs under life threatening conditions every year american workers die from job related injuries and tens of thousands more die from occupational disease public employees do some of the nation s most dangerous jobs perilous occupations include highway workers highway workers are often injured and frequently killed by moving traffic because work zones are not barricaded or don t have proper lighting health care workers hospitals have the highest number of job related injuries and illnesses of any private sector employer and nursing homes ranked fifth there were more than job related illnesses and injuries in private sector hospitals in up almost percent over the previous year it is generally believed that health care workers employed at public sector hospitals and nursing homes have a significantly higher rate of injuries and illnesses than do their private sector counterparts health and safety issues facing health care workers include exposure to tuberculosis and the hiv virus back injuries and high levels of stress social workers social workers who work in mental health institutions are often the victims of assaults and sometimes fatal attacks for instance last october a man carrying a semiautomatic handgun walked into the schuyler county social services building in watkins glenn n y and fatally shot social services workers before turning the gun on himself there are two basic problems first is a growing lack of support services for people who don t have the help they need because workers are overworked some clients are not given the adequate amount of counselling such conditions may cause clients to become more frustrated the quality of the clients is also becoming more violent as more are moved out of the institutions nearly million workers have been killed by workplace hazards since osha was passed moreover as afscme president gerald w mcentee explains osha does not provide workplace safety protections for public employees more than public employees are killed each year on the job yet states still provide no federally approved osha coverage for public employees said mcentee this despite the fact that public employees highway workers health care workers corrections officers to name but a few do some of the most dangerous work in our society this year we are fighting for passage of osha reform legislation to give all workers greater rights and protections and finally guarantee all public employees safe workplaces we need the public support to be successful government workers suffer percent more injuries than private sector workers and these injuries are almost percent more severe public employees were exempted from osha when the law was passed in and today public employees in more than half the states have no osha coverage canada remote systems toronto ontario
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in article nodrog hardy u washington edu gordon rubenfeld writes marty you ve also changed the terrain of the discussion from empiric itraconazole for undocumented chronic fungal sinusitis with systemic hypersensitivity symptoms noring syndrome to the yoghurt and vitamin therapy of undocumented candida enteritis elaine palmer syndrome with systemic symptoms there is significant difference between the cost and risk of these two empiric therapeutic trials are we talking about real candida infections the whole yeast connection hypothesis the efficacy of routine bacterial repopulation in humans or the ability of anecdotally effective therapies challenged by a negative randomized trial to confirm an etiologic hypothesis post hoc ergo propter hoc we can t seem to focus in on a disease a therapy or a hypothesis under discussion i m lost point i m beginning to see that part of the disagreements about the whole yeast issue is on differing perceptions and on differing meanings of words medical doctors have a very specific and specialized jargon necessary for precise communication within their field which i m fully cognizant of since i too speak jargonese when with my peers for the situation in sci med many times the words or phrases used by doctors can have a different and more specific meaning than the same word used in the world at large causing significant miscommunication one example word and very relevant to the yeast discussion is the exact meaning of systemic it is now obvious to me that the meaning of this word is very specific much more so than its meaning to a non doctor there is also the observation of this newsgroup that both doctors and non doctors come together on essentially equal terms which when combined with the jargon issue can further fan the flames this is probably the first time that practicing doctors get really beat up by non doctors for their views on medicine which they otherwise don t see much of in their practice except for the occasional difficult patient point i understand the viewpoint among many practicing doctors that they will not prescribe any treatments therapies for their patients unless such treatments have been shown to be effective and the risks understood from well constructed clinical trials usually double blind or that such treatments therapies are part of an approved and funded clinical trial to these doctors to do any differently would in this belief system be unethical practice and it follows that any therapy not on the accepted list is therefore a non therapy it does not even exist nor does the underlying hypothesis or theory have any validity even if it sounds very plausible by extrapolation of what is currently known anecdotal evidence has no value either from a treatment point of view and by and large as a scientist myself i am glad that medical practice science takes such a rigorous approach to medical treatment however as also being a human being last i checked and having been one of those people that has been significantly helped by a currently unaccepted treatment where standard medicine was not able to help me has caused me to sit back and wonder if holding such an extreme and rigid scientific viewpoint is in itself unethical from humanitarian considerations after all the underlying intent of the scientific approach to medicine is to protect the health of the patient by providing the best possible care for the patient so the patient should come first when considering treatment what we need is a slightly modified approach to treatment that satisfies both the scientific and the humanitarian viewpoints in an earlier post i outlined a crazy idea for doing just that the gist of it was to give any physician freedom and encouragement by the medical community to prescribe alternate not yet proven therapies maybe supported by anecdotal evidence for patients who all avenues of accepted therapies have been exhausted and not until then the patient would be fully informed that such therapies treatments are not supported by the proper clinical trials and that there are real potential risks with real possibilities of no benefit derived from them this approach satisfies the need for scientific rigor it also satisfies the humanitarian needs of the patient and the reality is that many patients who have reached a dead end in the treatment of their symptoms using accepted medicine will go outside the orthodox medical community either to the doctors who are brave enough to prescribe such treatments at the risk of losing their license or worse to non doctors who have not had the proper medical training this approach also recognizes this reality and keeps the control more within orthodox medicine with the benefits that the information gleaned could help focus limited resources towards future clinical trials in the most productive way everybody wins in this admittedly rose colored approach i m sure there are real problems with this approach as well it is presented more as a strawman to stimulate discussion hopefully what i write here may give the sci med doctors a better idea as to why i am open to alternative therapies as well as why i have real difficulty read apparent hostility with the coldness of the pure scientific approach to medicine i believe the best approach to medical treatment is one where both the humanitarian aspects are balanced with and by the scientific aspects anything else is just not good medicine imho just my nf leanings i guess comments jon noring charter member infj club if you re dying to know what infj means be brave e mail me i ll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip fred s gourmet chocolate carlton place phone chips world s best livermore ca v mail who are you read alt psychology personality that s where the action is
sci.med	re pregnency without sex in article c zf n mentor cc purdue edu scheiber sage cc purdue edu jennifer scheiber writes in article blue cis pitt edu kxgst pitt edu kenneth gilbert writes sounds to me like someone was pulling your leg there is only one way for pregnancy to occur intercourse these days however there is also artificial insemination and implantation techniques but we re speaking of natural acts here it is possible for pregnancy to occur if semen is deposited just outside of the vagina i e coitus interruptus but that s about at far as you can get through clothes no way better go talk to your biology teacher what is the likely hood of conception if sperm is deposited just outside the vagina ie chance hmmm i really don t know probably quite low overall why don t we get a couple hundred willing couples together and find out kenneth gilbert university of pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not a programmer
sci.med	re krillean photography in article mmeyer apr m dseg ti com mmeyer m dseg ti com mark meyer writes besides kirilian photography is actually photography of my friend s two year old son kiril perhaps you meant kirlian i think it was a typo for karelian photography which is the practice of taking pictures of either finns or russians depending on whom one asks eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in article apr vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes neither of these bacteria are obligate anaerobes with are much more important in dealing with the diarrhea problem the diarrhea problem what diarrhea problem first candidal overgrowth is not a frequent problem during antibiotic therapy and not all cases of antibiotic related diarrhea have anything to do with candida but a case of vaginal candidiasis or oral thrush after antibiotic therapy isn t going to surprise anyone either that s not what people are disagreeing with anti fungals a low carbohydrate diet and vitamin a supplementation may all help to minimize the local irritation until the good bacteria can take over control of the food supply again and lower the ph to basically starve the candida out oh really where d you come up with this you know it s really appalling to see you try to comment authoritatively on clinical matters in a bizarre synthesis from reading reports in the literature bobbing for citations in the research literature isn t medicine i hope you re not giving the wrong idea to your medical students steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima harvard rayssd linus m c spdcc dyer
sci.med	cats and pregnancy hello i heard that a certain disease toxoplasmosys is transmitted by cats which can harm the unborn fetus does anybody know about it is it a problem to have a cat in the same apartment thanks klaus hofmann national institute of materials and chemical research higashi tsukuba ibaraki japan
sci.med	re a good place for back surgery gary schuetter garyws cbnewsg cb att com wrote hello just one quick question my father has had a back problem for a long time and doctors have diagnosed an operation is needed since he lives down in mexico he wants to know if there is a hospital anywhere in the united states particulary famous for this kind of surgery kind of like houston has a reputation for excellent doctors in eye surgery any additional info or pointers will be appreciated a whole lot there is one hospital that is here in new york city that is famous for its orthopedists namely the hospital for special surgery they are located on the upper east side of manhattan if you want their address and phone let me know i ll get them i dont know them off hand felix the cat the wonderful wonderful cat meow hoss panix com
sci.med	re krillean photography in article apr ultb isc rit edu e a story eas ultb isc rit edu wrote in article rgrsvinnmpr gap caltech edu carl sol gps caltech edu writes greg flame definitely intended here bill was making fun of the misspelling go look up the word krill also the correct spelling is kirlian it involves taking photographs of corona discharges created by attaching the subject to a high voltage source not of some aura it works equally well with inanimate objects true but what about showing the missing part of a leaf is this corona discharge no it s called not wiping off the apparatus after taking a picture of the whole leaf gene battin battin cyclops iucf indiana edu no sig yet
sci.med	med school admission hi all ive applied for the class of at quite a number of schools and have gotten rejects interviews and no responses any one know when the heck these people send out their acceptance letters according to the med school admissions book theyre supposed to send out the number of their class in acceptances by mid march whats going on i am losing my sanity checking my mailbox every day also does anyone have some useful alternatives in case i dont get in i kind of looked into chiropractic and podiatry but they really dont interest me thanks felix the cat the wonderful wonderful cat meow hoss panix com
sci.med	please help a patient mail newsserv kiae su subject please help dear ladies and gentlemen we should be grateful for any information about address and or e mail address of loma linda hospital approximate position usa california near vaimor town miles from los angelos a patient needs consultation in this clinics before operation with respect igor v sidelnikov quit
sci.med	lymenet newsletter vol lyme disease electronic mail network lymenet newsletter volume number i introduction ii announcements iii news from the wires iv questions n answers v op ed section vi jargon index vii how to subscribe contribute and get back issues i introduction in this issue of the newsletter we learn of the cdc s announced concern for the resurgence of infectious diseases in the united states thanks to jonathan lord for sending me the upi release the cdc announced they would feature a new series of articles in the morbidity and mortality weekly report on these infectious diseases ld is one of them we will keep you up to date on this series in addition we feature a the wall street journal article on the legal issues surrounding ld we also look at lyme s effects from the perspective of urologists in an abstract entitled urinary dysfunction in lyme disease finally terry morse asks an intriguing question about a tick s habitat marc ii announcements source the lyme disease update subject call for articles attention health care professionals the lyme disease update would like to publish your articles on lyme disease diagnosis lyme treatment and the effects on lyme on lyme patients physical and mental health the ldu has a monthly circulation of our mailing list includes lyme patients physicians researchers county health departments and over lyme support groups nationwide we strive to give our readers up to date information on lyme disease prevention diagnosis and treatment and a source for support and practical advice on living with lyme disease articles for the ldu should be approximately to words and should address lyme disease issues in non scientific language to submit your article mail to lyme disease update p o box evansville in or fax to one year subscriptions to the lyme disease update are outside the us mail your subscription requests to the above address or call for more information iii news from the wires sender jonathan lord jml s uva pcmail virginia edu subject resurgence of infectious disease concerns cdc date thursday april atlanta upi a resurgence of infectious diseases blamed on newly emerging viruses and bacteria pose a major challenge for the nation s health care system federal health officials said thursday the centers for disease control and prevention reporting its latest findings in an investigation of contaminated hamburger meat that sickened hundreds in states and killed at least four said it will put renewed emphasis on battling infectious diseases part of that emphasis includes a new series titled emerging infectious diseases to be featured in the cdc s morbidity mortality weekly report which has a wide circulation in the health community the issue also will top the agenda of a two day meeting of scientific counselors to update the cdc s draft plan for dealing with the growing threat of infectious ailments this is an issue that has been coming and we do have a responsibility to deal with it said dr ruth berkelman deputy director of the cdc s national center for infectious diseases there were more cases of malaria in the u s in than in any year since the s and latin america is experiencing a cholera epidemic the first in this century she said resistance of disease causing agents to antibiotics is also a problem we are seeing much more antibiotic resistance than we have in the past berkleman said she said even common ear infections frequently seen in children are becoming resistant to antibiotic treatment despite predictions earlier this century that infectious diseases would soon be eliminated as a public health problem infectious diseases remain the major cause of death worldwide and a leading cause of illness and death in the united states the cdc said it cited the emergence since the s of a myriad of newly identified pathogens and syndromes such as escherichia coli o h a deadly bacterial infection the hepatitis c virus hiv the virus that causes aids legionnaires disease lyme disease and toxic shock syndrome the incidences of many diseases widely presumed to be under control such as cholera malaria and tuberculosis have increased in many areas the cdc said it said efforts at control and prevention have been undermined by drug resistance source wall street journal reference pb headline lyme disease ruling raises liability issues the tick that causes lyme disease may have found a new way to cause damage legal liability a federal judge s decision holding a property owner liable for not doing enough to protect workers from lyme disease is getting as much attention as the latest medical study on the disease a flu like illness that can cause severe physical and mental disabilities and in rare instances death the decision last week has put property owners on notice that they may have to do more than protect themselves from the ticks they also may have to protect themselves from litigation if someone becomes infected while on the property the decision by u s district judge robert j ward in new york came after a week long trial in a case involving four track workers for the long island railroad judge ward found that the workers contracted the disease after they were bitten by ticks while on the job he ordered the new york state owned commuter line to pay the workers more than to compensate for pain and suffering in addition to medical expenses and lost wages summer camps schools companies with facilities in rural or semirural areas and homeowners who rent to vacationers are among the groups that need to be worried about this ruling says stephen l kass an attorney at new york law firm berle kass case who wrote a legal article three years ago warning property owners of the potential liability even a family that invites friends over for a backyard barbecue might be potentially liable lawsuits for insect bites while rare aren t unheard of a summer vacationer in southampton n y last year sued the owner of the home she rented claiming that a tick on the property gave her rocky mountain spotted fever in also on long island a jury ordered an outdoor restaurant to pay more than million to a patron who was stung by a bee causing an allergic reaction and permanent quadriplegia the judge later threw out the award citing no evidence that a beehive was near the restaurant but lawyers say that the attention to lyme disease throughout the country it s most prevalent in new england the middle atlantic states wisconsin minnesota and the northwest may make this particular insect bite a particularly litigious one the illness already has proved to be a source of controversy in the courtroom over such issues as the type of medical care insurers will cover and medical malpractice claims against doctors for not diagnosing the disease lawyers say worker s compensation claims related to lyme disease have become common in some states in recent years payments in worker s compensation cases however are limited to medical costs and lost earnings the case before judge ward dealt with a potentially much more lucrative avenue for damages because it involved the question of negligence unlike the worker s compensation process the law governing injuries to rail workers allows for a finding of negligence and as a result for additional payments for pain and suffering property owners and lawyers say that negligence claims can be made in many other situations where people are exposed to the ticks that carry the disease ira m maurer a partner at new york law firm elkind flynn maurer who represented the rail workers says the decision will help to establish the duty of all sorts of property owners to protect against lyme disease lawyers caution that despite judge ward s decision winning a lawsuit for damages caused by lyme disease may prove difficult for one thing victims have to demonstrate that they have pinned down when and where they got the tick bite judge ward found that the plaintiffs in the railroad case got lyme disease while working on property owned by the railroad even though none of the men remembered being bitten the workers who weren t outdoorsmen likely to be exposed elsewhere to the insects said they saw ticks in the high grass that surrounded some work sites a spokeswoman for the railroad says that there was no proof that the four men were bitten while on the job and that the railroad is considering an appeal the railroad also disputes judge ward s finding that it didn t do enough to protect employees the spokeswoman says the railroad provides track workers with insect repellent and special pants to protect against bug bites debate in the scientific community over lyme disease could open up some legal defenses for property owners such as questioning whether a victim actually has the disease rather than some other illness earlier this week the journal of the american medical association reported that doctors overly diagnose patients as having lyme disease and damages awarded to a victim also might be influenced by medical disputes over the degree of harm that lyme disease causes because of health and safety concerns some groups and companies already take special measures to protect against lyme disease last year at its headquarters in franklin lakes n j becton dickinson co began using damminix a pesticide made by ecohealth inc of boston that is designed to kill ticks carrying the disease the medical supply company s headquarters include a acre park and the company was worried that employees who walk on its trails for recreation might get infected ruth lister a spokeswoman for the american camping association in indianapolis says that many youth camps accredited by her organization also have begun to check children for ticks and carole katz a member of the board of the fire island pines property owners association says her group spends each year to treat their acre site off the coast of new york with the tick killing pesticide title urinary dysfunction in lyme disease authors chancellor mb mcginnis de shenot pj kiilholma p hirsch ih department of urology jefferson medical college thomas jefferson university philadelphia pennsylvania reference j urol jan lyme disease which is caused by the spirochete borrelia burgdorferi is associated with a variety of neurological sequelae we describe patients with neuro borreliosis who also had lower urinary tract dysfunction urodynamic evaluation revealed detrusor hyperreflexia in patients and detrusor areflexia in detrusor external sphincter dyssynergia was not noted on electromyography in any patient we observed that the urinary tract may be involved in respects in the course of lyme disease voiding dysfunction may be part of neuro borreliosis and the spirochete may directly invade the urinary tract in patient bladder infection by the lyme spirochete was documented on biopsy neurological and urological symptoms in all patients were slow to resolve and convalescence was protracted relapses of active lyme disease and residual neurological deficits were common urologists practicing in areas endemic for lyme disease need to be aware of b burgdorferi infection in the differential diagnosis of neurogenic bladder dysfunction conservative bladder management including clean intermittent catheterization guided by urodynamic evaluation is recommended iv questions n answers note if you have a response to this question please forward it to the editor sender terry morse morset ccmail orst edu subject question on lyme vectors and compost piles when i visited my sister on long island ny i was cautioned to avoid the compost heap in her back yard as she thinks this is where she became infected a friend of mine here in oregon who has a compost heap would like me to back that claim up with documentation do lyme carrying ticks hang out in compost heaps thank you v op ed section this section is open to all subscribers who would like to express an opinion vi jargon index bb borrelia burgdorferi the scientific name for the ld bacterium cdc centers for disease control federal agency in charge of tracking diseases and programs to prevent them cns central nervous system elisa enzyme linked immunosorbent assays common antibody test em erythema migrans the name of the bull s eye rash that appears in of the patients early in the infection ifa indirect fluorescent antibody common antibody test ld common abbreviation for lyme disease nih national institutes of health federal agency that conducts medical research and issues grants to research interests pcr polymerase chain reaction a new test that detects the dna sequence of the microbe in question currently being tested for use in detecting ld tb and aids spirochete the ld bacterium it s given this name due to it s spiral shape western blot a more precise antibody test vii how to subscribe contribute and get back issues subscriptions anyone with an internet address may subscribe send a memo to listserv lehigh edu in the body type subscribe lymenet l your real name fax subscriptions are also available send a single page fax to for further information deletions send a memo to listserv lehigh edu in the body type unsubscribe lymenet l contributions send all contributions to lymenet l lehigh edu or fax them to all are encouraged to submit questions news items announcements and commentaries back issues send a memo to listserv lehigh edu in the body type get lymenet l newsletters x yy where x vol and yy issue example get lymenet l newsletters will get vol issue lymenet the internet lyme disease information source editor in chief marc c gabriel mcg lehigh edu fax contributing editors carl brenner brenner lamont ldgo columbia edu john setel o donnell jod equator com advisors carol jane stolow director william s stolow president the lyme disease network of new jersey chief proofreader ed mackey elm lehigh edu when comments are presented with an attribution they do not necessarily represent the opinions analyses of the editor this newsletter may be reproduced and or posted on bulletin boards freely as long as it is not modified or abridged in any way send all bug reports to mcg lehigh edu
sci.med	re can men get yeast infections can men get yeast infections spread them what kind of symptoms my ent doctor told me that it is not uncommon for the wife to get a vaginal yeast infection after the husband takes antibiotics in fact this recently happened to my wife explanation is that the antibiotics kill the yeast s competition they then thrive and increased yeast around the penis spread the infection during intercourse i was on ceclor for days then my wife got the yeast jay keller badboy netcom com
sci.med	umbilical hernia could anyone give me information on umbilical hernias the patient is over weight and has a protruding hernia surgery may be risky due to the obesity what other remedies could i try thanx in advance dr gary taylor
sci.med	re can men get yeast infections a woman once told me her doctor told her that i could catch asymptomatically her yeast infection from her then give it back to her causing a relapse probably bogus but if not it s another reason to use latex steve
sci.med	re proventil inhaler in article bb cdeb rick ysub ysu edu rick ysub ysu edu rick marsico writes does the proventil inhaler for asthma relief fall into the steroid or nonsteroid category looking at the product literature it s not clear non steroid proventil is a brand of albuterol a bronchodilator regards jay keller asthmatic proventil head
sci.med	re med school admission hoss panix com writes hi all ive applied for the class of at quite a number of schools and have gotten rejects interviews and no responses three possible results after interview rejection outright acceptance outright the infamous wait list if you are on a wait list your entrance into medical school is dependent upon some other applicant withdrawing their acceptance this can happen as late as day of starting classes any one know when the heck these people send out their acceptance letters according to the med school admissions book theyre supposed to send out the number of their class in acceptances by mid march whats going on i am losing my sanity checking my mailbox every day you can always call the admissions office the secretaries should have some idea of when a decision might be made on your application be calm respectful and friendly secretaries have more power than you might realize and you never know could be the dean of admissions answering the phone also does anyone have some useful alternatives in case i dont get in i if you don t get in this year sit down and re evaluate yourself your motives desires and goals that are directing you into medicine your academic and extracurricular accomplishments make a decision about whether you really want to be a medical doctor i had classmates who dropped out in the first semester of med school because they found it was not what they wanted to do i have friends who applied four years in a row before they were accepted medicine as a career is a choice you must make for yourself don t be pushed into it because of your parents family significant other if you still want to be a medical doctor determine how you can improve your application a letter of recommendation from a professor who knows you well and can give an honest positive recommendation is far better than one from a big shot famous professor who only vaguely remembers your face also don t be afraid to ask these people if they can give you an honest and positive recommendation give them a chance to say no sorry instead of the medical school saying no sorry i have turned down writing recommendations for some students because i did not know them well enough to make any meaningful comments and some because i honestly could not recommend them at that point rewrite your personal statement take it by an english professor or some other friendly person with skill and experience in writing and proof reading and get their criticism both about what you are saying as well as how you say it review your academic accomplishments if your grades are poor in some area don t be afraid to spend some time in further coursework evidence of determined committment will help here if you filled your pre medicine curriculum with gut courses it usually shows look at your extracurricular involvements participating in local philanthropic or service organizations is a plus substantial leadership roles in an organization help also beware of resume padding such things are not difficult to spot and weed out overall a clear conception of where you wish to head and why you want to get there combined with an honest self appraisal of skills and aptitude will be the best path to take in applying to any program medical or what have you good luck with the process as tom petty says the waiting is the hardest part at least emotionally bob schmieg
sci.med	sinus surgery septoplasty my ent doctor recommended surgery to fix my sinuses i have a very deviated nasal septum probably the result at least partially from several fractures one side has approximately of normal flow of course i have known this for years but recently discovered that i suffer from chronic sinus infection discovered during an mri after a severe migraine a ct scan subsequently confirmed the problems in the sinuses he wants to do endoscopic sinus surgery on the ethmoid maxillary frontal and sphenoid along with nasal septoplasty he explained the procedure and the risks what i would like to know is if there is anyone out there who can tell me i had this surgery and it helped me i ve already heard from a couple who said they had it and it didn t really help them i am a moderately severe asthmatic ent doc says large percentage see some relief of their asthma after sinus surgery also he said it is not unheard of that migraines go away after chronis sinusitis is relieved i am any relevant information is appreciated regards jay keller sunnyvale california badboy netcom com
sci.med	iridology any credence to it i saw a printed up flyer that stated the person was a licensed herbologist and iridologist what are your opinions how much can you tell about a person s health by looking into their eyes
sci.med	prohibit for spiral meningitis i like to know how effective prohibit is to prevent spiral meningitis for a child who is five years old i heard it s from canada what sort of side effects etc chul hee cho
sci.med	re pregnency without sex i think you must have the same hygiene teacher i had in there is a story about the civil war about a soldier who was shot in the groin the bullet after passing through one of his testes then entered the abdomen of a young woman standing nearby later when she a young woman of unimpeachible virtue was shown to be pregnant the soldier did the honorable thing of marrying her according to this story they lived happily ever after perhaps the most famous of mr rau s classes was the time he would come into class brandishing an aluminum turning mandrel tapering from about to over a inch length he would say boys do you know what this is it s a medical instrument called a cock reamer and it s used to unclog your penis when you have vd they just ram it up there without an anesthetic needless to say this had a chilling effect i didn t have lascivious thoughts for at least an hour later in life as i perused medical instrument catelogs and saw the slender flexible urethral sounds that are actually used i could not escape thinking that i might one day see reamer cock style of rau
sci.med	re pregnency without sex speaking of educational systems i recently had a colleague tell me that the reason one of our fifth grade students is so physically developed is because she was sexually abused as a younger child this she went on to say kicks the pituitary gland into action and causes puberty
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition i wrote kw if you don t like additives then for godsake kw get off the net and learn to cook from scratch sheesh mary allison exclaims ma excuse me ma why can t people learn to cook from scratch on the net ma i ve gotten lots of recipes off the net that don t use additives because one simply can t cook on the net nor can one cook while on the net cooking is best done in a kitchen on a stove gotcha grin i said this out of general frustration at people not anyone in particular who seem to expect packaged food to conform to their tastes in other words if packaged foods are not to your liking prepare foods that are ma if you like additives then get off the net and go to your local ma supermarket buy lots of packaged foods and you get off the net i don t have strong feelings about additives as long as i can t taste em as for the rest of your reply to me i am sorry it it seemed as if i was picking on you i wasn t trying to do so please accept my apologies kiran
sci.med	nasopharinx carcenoma hi does anyone know the possible causes of nasoparynx carcenoma and what are the chances of it being hereditary also in the advacned cases what is the general procedure to reduce the pain the area as it prevents the patient from eating due to the excessive pain of swallowing and even talking thanks f
sci.med	re cats and pregnancy in article apr etl go jp klaus ipri go jp klaus hofmann writes hello i heard that a certain disease toxoplasmosys is transmitted by cats which can harm the unborn fetus does anybody know about it is it a problem to have a cat in the same apartment having the cat around is not a problem but the pregnant woman should not change the litter box toxoplasmosis can be transmitted from the stool of some cats kenneth gilbert university of pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not a programmer
sci.med	herpes question i am looking for some clarification on a subject that i am trying to find some information on how is hsv herpes transmitted i currently know that it can be transmitted during inflammation but what i am looking for is if it can be transmitted during in other periods also i want to know if you can be accurately tested for it while you are not showing symtoms if you can help i would greatly appreciate it teg
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition michael iastate edu michael m huang writes msg is common in many food we eat including chinese though some oriental restaurants might put a tad too much in them i ve noticed that when i go out and eat in most of the chinese food restaurants i will usually get a slight headache and an ununsual thirst afterwards this happens to many of my friends and relatives too and heh we eat chinese food all the time at home but we don t use msg when we re cooking for ourselves heck i seem to feel like that every time i eat out including in the cafeteria at work about half the time the headache intensifies until nothing will make it go away except throwing up ick as you might imagine i don t eat out a lot i guess my tolerance for food additives has plummeted since i switched to eating mostly steamed veggies they re easy to fix that s all i won t even mention what happened the last time i ate corned beef oops too late the graphics bbs it s better than a sharp stick in the eye internet lim graphics rent com julie lim uucp rutgers bobsbox graphics lim
sci.med	re can men get yeast infections steve pope spp zabriskie berkeley edu wrote a woman once told me her doctor told her that i could catch asymptomatically her yeast infection from her then give it back to her causing a relapse probably bogus but if not it s another reason to use latex steve it isn t bogus i had chronic vaginal yeast infections that would go away with cream but reappear in about weeks i had been on rounds of antibiotics for a resistant sinus infection and my husband had been on amoxicillin also for a sinus infection after six months of this i went to a gynecologist who had me culture my husband seminal fluid after days incubation he had quite a bit of yeast growth it was confirmed by the lab a round of nizerol for him cleared both of us andrea kwiatkowski
sci.med	re pregnency without sex mmatusev radford vak ed edu melissa n matusevich writes speaking of educational systems i recently had a colleague tell me that the reason one of our fifth grade students is so physically developed is because she was sexually abused as a younger child this she went on to say kicks the pituitary gland into action and causes puberty nonsense i ve taught fifth sixth seventh there are a few early puberty types in fifth and it has nothing to do with early sexual experience jackie
sci.med	re nasopharinx carcenoma in article y z d rpi edu chungy rebecca its rpi edu yau felix chung writes hi does anyone know the possible causes of nasoparynx carcenoma and what are the chances of it being hereditary nasopharyngeal cancer is roughly don t have references at hand times more prevalent in chinese than caucasians particularly those chinese from southern china one province or region has an extraordinary excess the chinese and others have done major studies some association with the epstein barr virus has been noted also in the advacned cases what is the general procedure to reduce the pain the area as it prevents the patient from eating due to the excessive pain of swallowing and even talking palliative radiotherapy is used
sci.med	hip replacement 
sci.med	re need info on circumcision medical cons and pros in article c yg th cs uiuc edu blix milton cs uiuc edu gunnar blix writes i need information on the medical including emotional pros and cons of circumcision at birth i pity those who hope that medical knowledge can resolve issues such as this this issue has been rehashed in sci med time and time again the bottom line is this in normal circumstances both the medical advantages of and the medical risks of circumcision are minor this means that the decision is left to the religious cultural ethical and aesthetic mores of the parents at best or to the habit of the concerned hospital or caregivers at worst as prospective parents you should do what you want in this regard and not worry about it too much in terms of decisions you make for your child it will have far less importance than many such as which schools you choose that most parents think about only a little this question will undoubtedly push the buttons of people who feel that the decision to circumcise your infant or not is a momentous medical decision it is not russell
sci.med	we can supply you with the transplantants other the private scietific industrial firm intercom can supply you with the transplantants that could be delivered according to your order selection and preparation of the materials is carried out by the qualified personnel having year experience in this sphere we provide immunological selection of tissues on the special request aids syphilis other infection diseases tests bio chemical tests we guarantee deliverance of our products within temperature habital providing their prime condition o yarosha st apart kharkov ukraine tel fax e mail tuser azbuka kharkov ua relay ussr eu net
sci.med	re iridology any credence to it in article aa dpw com janice price jprice dpw com writes how much can you tell about a person s health by looking into their eyes by looking at the iris iridology virtually nothing looking at the retina allows one to visualise the small blood vessels and is helpful in assessing various systemic diseases hypertension and diabetes for example don mackie his opinion um will disavow
sci.med	re thermogenics first off if i m not mistaken only hibernating animals have brown fat not humans secondly your description sounds just like dinitrophenol this is an uncoupler of respiratory chain oxidative phosphorylation put in layman s terms it short circuits the mitochondria causing food energy to be turned into heat dnp was popular in the s for weight reduction in controlled amounts it raises body temperature as the body compensates for the reduced amount of useful energy available it is very dangerous it would be wiser to adjust to your present body form rather than play around with dnp but if you insist i suggest you look up the literature in your own university library you can obtain dnp by taking a first year organic chemistry lab course and swiping it from the supplies it s a commonly used reagent
sci.med	re hypodermic needle scientific american had a nice short article on the history of the hypodermic about or years ago prior to liquid injectables there were paddle like needles used to implant a tiny pill under the skin
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in article apr vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes oxygen just like it does in the vagina as much stuff as there is in the lay press about l acidophilus and vaginal yeast infections i m really amazed that someone has not done a clinical trial yet to check it out i ve mentioned this study a couple of times now ingestion of yogurt containing lactobacillus acidophilus as prophylaxis for candidal vaginitis annals of internal medicine do you have a problem with the study because they used yogurt rather than capsules of lactobacillus even though it had positive results the study was a crossover trial of daily ingestion of ounces of yogurt there was a marked decrease in infections while women were ingesting the yogurt problems with the study included very small numbers patients enrolled and many protocol violations only patients were analyzed still the difference in rates of infection between the two groups was so large that the study remains fairly believable david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
sci.med	re can men get yeast infections my then wife used to get recurrent yeast infections one day her doctor sent her home with medication for her and a pill for me i took the pill upon her insistence and was very relieved the next day when i looked it up in the pdr it only rarely causes testicular atrophy anyway men apparently do get yeast infections
sci.med	info colonics and purification recently i ve come upon a body of literature which promotes colon cleansing as a vital aid to preventive medicine through nutrition in particular dr bernard jenssen in his book colon cleansing for health and longevity the title actually escapes me but it is very similar to that claims that regular self administered colonics along with certain orally ingested debris loosening agents boosts the immune system to a significant degree he also plugs a unique appliance called the colema board which facilitates the self administration of colonics it sells for over from a california based company he also plugs vitra tox products as his chemical agents of choice these include volcanic ash supposedly for its electrical charge and psyllium powder for its bulkiness if anyone knows anything about colon cleansing theory its particulars or the colema board and related products i d be very interested to hear about research and personal experience this article is crossposted to alt magick as the issue touches upon fasting and cleansing through a ritual system of purification eli wiesel cs yale edu elisha wiesel davenport college yale university wiesel minerva cis yale edu school home
sci.med	info colonics and purification recently i ve come upon a body of literature which promotes colon cleansing as a vital aid to preventive medicine through nutrition in particular dr bernard jenssen in his book colon cleansing for health and longevity the title actually escapes me but it is very similar to that claims that regular self administered colonics along with certain orally ingested debris loosening agents boosts the immune system to a significant degree he also plugs a unique appliance called the colema board which facilitates the self administration of colonics it sells for over from a california based company he also plugs vitra tox products as his chemical agents of choice these include volcanic ash supposedly for its electrical charge and psyllium powder for its bulkiness if anyone knows anything about colon cleansing theory its particulars or the colema board and related products i d be very interested to hear about research and personal experience this article is crossposted to alt magick as the issue touches upon fasting and cleansing through a ritual system of purification eli wiesel cs yale edu elisha wiesel davenport college yale university wiesel minerva cis yale edu school home
sci.med	re cats and pregnancy in article apr etl go jp klaus ipri go jp klaus hofmann writes i heard that a certain disease toxoplasmosys is transmitted by cats which can harm the unborn fetus does anybody know about it is it a problem to have a cat in the same apartment the disease you are talking about is toxoplasmosis it is a protozoan that lives and multiplies within cells in cats the protozoan multiplies in the intestinal cells and eggs are shed in the cat s feces the protozoa can cross the placenta to infect the fetus the disease may be asymptomatic after the baby is born or it may be very severe toxo may cause blindness and mental retardation having a cat in the same apartment should not be a problem however pregnant women should not scoop or change the cat s litterbox in addition whoever does empty the litterbox should thoroughly wash his her hands before handling anything else especially food information came from the merck manual th ed i hope this information is helpful to you elisa picl fsphy physics fsu edu
sci.med	usmle formerly national boards part request to medical students this request goes out to medical students who have done or are planning to sit the usmle or national boards part my wife is sitting this examination in early june this year and would like to have a look at some old national boards part questions found in the following books these books are currently out of print the books are retired nbme basic medical science test items nbme published by nbme in self test in the part basic medical sciences nbme published by nbme in i would appreciate if anyone who has these books is willing to loan it to her for a couple of days obviously i would reimburse for you all postage and related charges failing that it would be beneficial if anyone could point to any library in the ny nj or pa area that may have these books please respond by e mail since i do not read this newsgroup regularly thanks in advance daniel e mail daniel learning siemens com
sci.med	re need info on circumcision medical cons and pros need info on circumcision medical cons and pros in article c yg th cs uiuc edu gunnar blix blix milton cs uiuc edu writes i need information on the medical including emotional pros and cons of circumcision at birth i am especially interested in references to studies that indicate disadvantages or refute studies that indicate advantages a friend who is a medical student is writing a survey paper and apparently the studies she has run into are all for circumcision the main argument being a lower risk of penile cancer please email responses as i am not a frequent reader of either group i will summarize to the net i m very surprised that medical schools still push routine circumcision of newborn males on the population since your friend is not a man she can t imagine what it s like to have a penis much less a foreskin i guess if american medicine did an artistic job of circumcising every male then the visual result would be somewhat more natural in appearance the penile cancer thing has been completely debunked she must be going to school on a south pacific island tell her to check the journal or urology for circumcision articles i remember at least on an old jewish man cut at birth who developed penile cancer i mean if the cancer risk was that great the europe who have been circumcising like crazy too teaching a boy how to keep his cockhead clean is the issue a little proper hygiene goes a long way americans are just too hung up on the penis to consider cleaning it that s just way too much like mastubation so you have surgical intervention that is basically unnecessary
sci.med	allergies and stuff was is msg sensitivity superstition unless i plan on getting sick i won t eat the stuff without my seldane and did i ever learn to read labels it might not please a medical researcher but it pleased my own personal physician enough for him to give me allergy medicine allergy medicine huh is this just to get rid of the resultant migraine or whatever or does it actually suppress allergic reactions i e like an antihistamine does as far as doctors over here are concerned if you slip up and eat something you re allergic to even if they won t test you to tell you what to avoid then tough if a cheap medicine will alleviate your symptoms then fine otherwise you just suffer one doctor did prescribe me imigran costs the nhs for tablets after having to rehydrate me because i d been throwing up for four solid days and couldn t even drink water but i got taken off it again when i moved and had to change doctors reasoning they did not know what the side effects were because it was new ok fine but it has passed the safety tests to get on the prescription list and anyway i was prepared to take the risk to have quality of life now the only alternatives i have is to get it prescribed privately which i cannot afford or to pay a private allergy specialist to test me and tell me what to avoid i am fairly certain i am allergic to more than one chemical additive as a lot of things i can t eat have nothing in common except things i know are safe so testing myself isn t really an option there are too many permutations i m not saying i never consume anything with msg i ve noticed that i have a certain tolerance level like a small bag of bbq chips once a month or so it not a problem but that same bag of chips will bother me if i also had chicken bouillon yesterday and lunch at one of the chinese restaurants the day before yes i ve noticed that and i can work it up by eating just under the tolerance level fairly regularly if i don t eat anything except home cooking for a month or so i lose it and have to work it up from scratch a bad experience now i know what the early warning symptoms are though i can usually tell whether i am allergic to food before i ve eaten too much of it usually
sci.med	looking for info on kemotherapy sp hello a friend is under going kemotherapy sp for breast cancer i m trying to learn what i can about it any info would be appreciated thanks
sci.med	re krillean photography in article apr ultb isc rit edu eas ultb isc rit edu e a story writes in article rgrsvinnmpr gap caltech edu carl sol gps caltech edu writes greg flame definitely intended here bill was making fun of the misspelling go look up the word krill also the correct spelling is kirlian it involves taking photographs of corona discharges created by attaching the subject to a high voltage source not of some aura it works equally well with inanimate objects true but what about showing the missing part of a leaf is this corona discharge yup the demonstration to which you refer consists of placing a leaf between the plates and taking a kirlian photograph of it you then cut off part of the leaf put the top plate back on and take another kirlian photograph you see pretty much the same image in both cases turns out the effect isn t nearly so striking if you take the trouble to clean the plates between photographs seems that the moisture from the leaf that you left on the place conducts electricity surprise surprise carl j lydick internet carl sol gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol carl disclaimer hey i understand vaxen and vms that s what i get paid for my understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level or below so unless what i m saying is directly related to vax vms don t hold me or my organization responsible for it if it is related to vax vms you can try to hold me responsible for it but my organization had nothing to do with it
sci.med	re help for kidney stones in article etxmow garboc etxmow garbo ericsson se mats winberg writes isn t there a relatively new treatment for kidney stones involving a non invasive use of ultra sound where the patient is lowered into some sort of liquid when he she undergoes treatment i m sure i ve read about it somewhere if i remember it correctly it is a painless and effective treatment a couple of weeks ago i visited a hospital here in stockholm and saw big signs showing the way to the kidney stone chrusher i saw this a few years ago on tomorrow s world low brow bbc technology news program the patient is lowered into a bath of de ionized water and carefully positioned high intensity pressure waves are generated by an electric spark in the water you don t get electrocuted because de ionised water does not conduct these waves are focused on the kidneys by a parabolic reflector and cause the stone to break up this is completely painless of course you then have to get these little bits of gravel through the urethra ouch paul paul johnson paj gec mrc co uk tel ext these ideas and others like them can be had gec marconi research is not for each from any reputable idealist responsible for my opinions
sci.med	re use of haldol in elderly in article westesc xqf r netcom com westes netcom com will estes writes does anyone know of research done on the use of haldol in the elderly does short term use of the drug ever produce long term side effects after the use of the drug my grandmother recently had to be hospitalized and was given large doses of haldol for several weeks although the drug has been terminated she has changed from a perky slightly senile woman into a virtual vegetable who does not talk to anyone and who cannot even eat or brush her teeth without assistance it seems incredible to me that such changes could take place in the course of just one and one half months i have to believe that the combination of the hospital stay and some drug s are in part catalysts for this any comments will estes internet westes netcom com haldol one of the wonder drugs that works wonders if you re a carrot that is henry dunham chip emt d nremt coordinator of ems operations houston field house ems hd albnyvms bitnet
sci.med	re use of haldol in elderly lawrence curcio lc b andrew cmu edu wrote i ve seen people in their forties and fifties become disoriented and demented during hospital stays in the examples i ve seen drugs were definitely involved my own father turned into a vegetable for a short time while in the hospital he was fifty three at the time and he was on separate medications the family protested but the doctors were adamant telling us that none of the drugs interact they even took the attitude that if he was disoriented they should put him on something else as well with the help of an md friend of the family we had all his medication discontinued he had a seizure that night and was put back on one drug two days later he was his old self again i guess there aren t many medical texts that address the subject of way interactions i saw the same thing happen to my father and i can more or less validate your take on hospitals it seems to me that medical science understands precious little about taking care of the human machine drugs are given as a response to symptoms and i guess that makes sense since all the studies that validate the effectiveness of those drugs are based on a narrow assessment of the degree of particular symptoms but there seems to be very little appreciation for the well being of a person outside of the numbers that appear on a test i watched my dad wither away and lose huge amounts of body fat and muscles tissue while in the hospital there is something a little crazy about a system in which there is more attention paid to giving you every latest drug available than there is attention paid to whether you have had enough to eat to prevent loss of muscle tissue it is really really bizarre will estes internet westes netcom com
sci.med	re pregnency without sex all right listen up what are the possibilities of transmission through swimming pool water especially if the chlorination isn t up to par i ve heard of community swimming pools refered to as public urinals so what else is going on
sci.med	re krillean photography flame on reading through the posts about kirlian whatever spelling photography i couldn t help but being slightly disgusted by the narrow minded i know it all i don t believe what i can t see or measure attitude of many people out there i am neither a real believer nor a disbeliever when it comes to so called paranormal stuff but as far as i m concerned it is just as likely as the existence of for instance a god which seems to be quite accepted in our societies without any scientific basis i am convinced that it is a serious mistake to close your mind to something anything simply because it doesn t fit your current frame of reference history shows that many great people great scientists were people who kept an open mind and were ridiculed by sceptics especially the usa should be grateful after all columbus did not drop off the edge of the earth flame off or end sermon alex
sci.med	what is the medical term for this sensation dear netters maybe one of you can explain this from time to time i experience a strange kind of feeling i have all kinds of weird feelings which can be best described as the feeling of losing gravity like that one experiences in a descending elevator needless to say it is not enjoyable it sometimes comes with shortness of breath and extreme fatigue it lasts from a few minutes to an hour and when it lasts that long it makes me sweatening initially i called it palpitation spelling until i later learnt that the terminology has been reserved for the self awareness of heart beats so is there a specific term for this feeling or am i a stragne person i always believe i am unique thanks ping
sci.med	re discussions on alt psychoactives re serious discussion about drugs vs where can i get a good bong man why not have the group moderated that would eliminate some of the idiots
sci.med	vasectomy health effects on women does anyone know of any studies done on the long term health effects of a man s vasectomy on his female partner i ve seen plenty of study results about vasectomy s effects on men s health but what about women for example might the wife of a vasectomized man become more at risk for say cervical cancer adverse effects from sperm antibodies changes in the vagina s ph yeast or bacterial infections outside of study results how about informed speculation thanks in advance for your help eric skagerberg eskagerb nermal santarosa edu santa rosa california telephone
sci.med	re krillean photography in article apr linus mitre org gpivar mitre org the pancake emporium writes in article apr scorch apana org au bill scorch apana org au bill dowding writes todamhyp charles unlv edu brian m huey writes i think that s the correct spelling i am looking for any information supplies that will allow do it yourselfers to take krillean pictures i m thinking that education suppliers for schools might have a appartus for sale but i don t know any of the companies any info is greatly appreciated krillean photography involves taking pictures of minute decapods resident in the seas surrounding the antarctic or pictures taken by them perhaps bill from oz bill no flame intended but you re way way off base in simple terms kirilian photography registers the electromagnetical fields around objects in simple it takes pictures of your aura greg be still be silent the rest is easy dear bill i think you forgot the smileys some of us got the joke
sci.med	re med school admission i m a fellow applicant and my situation is not too much better i applied to about schools got two interviews got one offer and am waiting to hear from the other school let me be honest about my experiences and impressions about the medical school admissions process numbers gpa mcats are not everything but they are probably more important than anything else in fact some schools screen out applicants based on these numbers and never even look at your other qualities of course when this happens don t expect a refund on your application fee but the fact that you got four interviews tells me that you have the numbers and are very well qualified academically you mentioned one response was it an acceptance denial or wait list if i assume the worst that it was a denial then you still have a great probability of acceptance somewhere how did your interviews go as for how long you have to wait i ve called a few schools who never contacted me for anything many of them told me that the interview season for them was over and that if i haven t heard by now i can assume a denial many rejection letters are not sent out until may or as late as june but some schools are still interviewing i really don t think you should worry don t become fixated on the mailbox go out have fun be very proud of yourself what do people think of the medical school admissions process i had a very mediocre gpa but high mcat scores and i have been working as a software engineer for two years i majored in computer science at stanford still i think the profile of the person who has the best chance of getting admitted is something like this very important gpa or better mcat top in all subject medium importance writing speaking ability maturity motivation for going into medicine activities less important college or university major work experience anything else you want them to know anyway you are in good shape i think admissions committees are bound in many ways by the numbers but would like very much to understand each person as an individual sometimes thats just not practical but getting four interviews is an indicator that you have the numbers hopefully you were able to impress them with your character good luck jeff
sci.med	re help for kidney stones etxmow garbo ericsson se mats winberg writes isn t there a relatively new treatment for kidney stones involving a non invasive use of ultra sound where the patient is lowered into some sort of liquid when he she undergoes treatment i m sure i ve read about it somewhere if i remember it correctly it is a painless and effective treatment the use of shock waves not ultrasound to break up stones has been around for a few years depending on the type of machine and intensity of the shock waves it is usually uncomfortable enough to require something the high power machines cause enough pain to require general or regional anesthesia afterwards it feels like someone slugged you pretty good
sci.med	re resound hearing aids and others in article rhaller rhaller cc uoregon edu rhaller ns uoregon edu rich haller writes i have a fairly severe high frequency hearing loss a recent rough test showed a gently sloping loss to db down at cps then it falls off a cliff to dbs down from cps on this type of loss is difficult to fit i am currently using some old siemens behind the ear aids which keep me roughly functional but leave a lot to be desired recently i had an opportunity to test the widex q behind the ear aids for several weeks these have four independent programs which are intended to be customized for different hearing situations and can be reprogramed i found them to be a definite improvement over my current aids and was about to go ahead with them until another local outfit advertised a free trial of another programmable system called resound unfortunately i was only able to try the resound aids in their office for about minutes and i couldn t compare them head to head with the widex nevertheless it did appear to me that they were superior and i was impressed by what i was able to read about the theory behind them which i will give in a separate posting they also carry the widex aids and had one patient presumably wealthy who decided to go ahead and get the resound even though he had purchased the widex only months ago the problem is that the resound aids are about twice as expensive as the widex and other programmable aids i could take a trip to europe on the difference being a lover of bargains and hating to spend money i am having a hard time persuading myself to go with the resounds i would appreciate any opinions on this and other hearing aids and projections about when and if i might see improvements in technology that aren t quite so expensive your hearing curve sounds a lot like mine thanks uncle sam i ve been wearing miracle ear canal aids for about months now and i find them to be acceptable they are molded to the shape of your ear canal and tuned to your hearing curve they are comfortable to wear and almost invisible if you re worried about that although if you re currently wearing behind the ear models that s not an issue the cost i paid each for mine through the miracle ear counter at sears i ve heard that there is a substantial discount for senior citizens but i haven t researched that because i m not a senior citizen yet give them a try you might be pleasantly surprised alan hepburn a man doesn t know what he knows national semiconductor until he knows what he doesn t know santa clara ca alan berlioz nsc com thomas carlyle
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in article rjifg bgm hsdndev harvard edu rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes in article apr vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes oxygen just like it does in the vagina as much stuff as there is in the lay press about l acidophilus and vaginal yeast infections i m really amazed that someone has not done a clinical trial yet to check it out i ve mentioned this study a couple of times now ingestion of yogurt containing lactobacillus acidophilus as prophylaxis for candidal vaginitis annals of internal medicine do you have a problem with the study because they used yogurt rather than capsules of lactobacillus even though it had positive results the study was a crossover trial of daily ingestion of ounces of yogurt there was a marked decrease in infections while women were ingesting the yogurt problems with the study included very small numbers patients enrolled and many protocol violations only patients were analyzed still the difference in rates of infection between the two groups was so large that the study remains fairly believable david rind david this study looks like a good one gordon rubenfeld did a medline search and also sent me the same reference through e mail since commercial yogurt does not always have a good lactobacillus a or bulgaricus culture a negative finding would not have been too informative this is often the reason why lactobacillus acidophilus tablets are recommended rather than yogurt i guess the next question is why would this introduction of good bacteria back into the gut decrease the incidence of vaginal candida blooms if the anus was not serving as a candida reservoir a fact that gordon r vehementy denys i see two possible theories one the l acidophilus which is a facultatively anaerobic bacterium could make it through the gut and colonize the rectal area to overgrow the candida this would not explain the reoccurance of candida blooms in the vagina after the yogurt ingestion was stopped though the other is that the additional bacteria in the intestinal tract remove most of the glucose from the feces and candida looses it s major food source getting lactobacillus acidophilus to colonize the vaginal tract where it is normally found would have a much better effect on the recurrance of vaginal yeast blooms though an acetic acid lactobacillus acidophilus douche has been used to get this effect but i ve not seen any such treatment reported in the medical literature this would be an example of physicians conducting their own clinical trials to try to come up with treatments that help their patients when this is done in private practice the results are rarely if ever published it was the hallmark of medicine until the modern age emerged with clinical trials it really raises a big question does the medical profession cast out the adventerous few who try new treatments to help patients or does it look the other way this particular issue is really a very simple one since no real dangerous therapy is involved even the anti fungals are not all that dangerous but there are some areas like edta chelation therapy where the fire is pretty hot and somebody could get burned it s really tough do i follow only well established protocols and then give up if they don t work that well or do it try something that looks like it will work but hasn t been proven to work yet my stand is to consider other treatment possibilities especially if they involve little or no risk to the patient getting good bacteria back into the gut after antibiotic treatment is one treatment possibility the other is getting l acidophilus into the vaginal tract of a woman who is having a problem with recurring yeast infections marty b
sci.med	re krillean photography in article rjr uinnh gap caltech edu carl sol gps caltech edu carl j lydick writes in article apr ultb isc rit edu eas ultb isc rit edu e a story writes in article rgrsvinnmpr gap caltech edu carl sol gps caltech edu writes greg flame definitely intended here bill was making fun of the misspelling go look up the word krill also the correct spelling is kirlian it involves taking photographs of corona discharges created by attaching the subject to a high voltage source not of some aura it works equally well with inanimate objects true but what about showing the missing part of a leaf is this corona discharge yup the demonstration to which you refer consists of placing a leaf between the plates and taking a kirlian photograph of it you then cut off part of the leaf put the top plate back on and take another kirlian photograph you see pretty much the same image in both cases turns out the effect isn t nearly so striking if you take the trouble to clean the plates between photographs seems that the moisture from the leaf that you left on the place conducts electricity surprise surprise this is true but it s not quite the whole story there were actually some people who were more careful in their methodology who also replicated the phantom leaf effect one of the most influential critics of kirlian electrophotography is a theosophist and threfore presumably willing to entertain the hypothesis of scientific evidence for a human aura electromagnetic or otherwise professor of electrical engineering at london s city university and a past president of the society for psychic research named a j ellison after years of studying the method and the claims ellison came to the conclusion that the photographic images are what we calls lichtenberg figures an effect of intermittent ionization of the air around the object it s a bit more complicated than not wiping off the plates but it comes down to the same thing in the end kirlian electrophotography has much more limited value if any than was previously widely thought electrical and magnetic fields generated by the body are much too small to be of much use diagnostically without very elaborate equipment and usually also tracer chemicals kind regards todd todd i stark stark dwovax enet dec com digital equipment corporation philadelphia pa usa a word is the skin of a living thought oliver wendell holmes jr
sci.med	request faq hi i have a friend who is interested in subscribing to this newsgroup unfortunatly she does not have usenet access if someone could send her a faq and info on how to subscribe we d be very appreciative if you want to send it to me you can and i will get it to her i do not read this newsgroup regularly though so e mail please thank you jody jody rebecca colby college majors history sociology class o e mail jrgould colby edu samuel paul rutgers edu fantasy music colors and animals will lead this society out of oppression
sci.med	oops silly me sorry my friend s address who wants the faq and info is jjsulliv colby edu sorry about that folks jody jody rebecca colby college majors history sociology class o e mail jrgould colby edu samuel paul rutgers edu fantasy music colors and animals will lead this society out of oppression
sci.med	ecg data needed i need some ecg data uncompressed hopefully in ascii format don t care what it looks like this is for a signal processing project
sci.med	re please help a patient in article aaghzshe integral stavropol su mymail integral stavropol su writes mail newsserv kiae su subject please help dear ladies and gentlemen we should be grateful for any information about address and or e mail address of loma linda hospital approximate position usa california near vaimor town miles from los angelos a patient needs consultation in this clinics before operation with respect igor v sidelnikov quit this is also being replied to via e mail i dialed my university librarian and he looked it up loma linda university medical center loma linda ca i don t know an internet address for them but they can be reached by telephone at good luck daniel r field aka infospunj never believe any experiment until dfield oboe calpoly edu it has been confirmed by theory biochemistry biotechnology arthur eddington california polytechnic state u tongue in cheek or foot in mouth
sci.med	re need info on circumcision medical cons and pros in article apr netnews noc drexel edu giamomj duvm ocs drexel edu mike g writes need info on circumcision medical cons and pros in article c yg th cs uiuc edu gunnar blix blix milton cs uiuc edu writes i need information on the medical including emotional pros and cons of circumcision at birth i am especially interested in references to studies that indicate disadvantages or refute studies that indicate advantages a friend who is a medical student is writing a survey paper and apparently the studies she has run into are all for circumcision the main argument being a lower risk of penile cancer please email responses as i am not a frequent reader of either group i will summarize to the net i m very surprised that medical schools still push routine circumcision of newborn males on the population since your friend is not a man she money probably has a lot to do with keeping the practice of routine circumcision alive it s another opporitunity to charge a few hundred extra bucks for a completely unnecessary procedure the rationale for which until recently has been accepted without question by most parents of newborns one could also imagine that complications arising from circumcision infections sloppy jobs etc are far more common than the remote chance of penile cancer it is purported to prevent can t imagine what it s like to have a penis much less a foreskin i guess if american medicine did an artistic job of circumcising every male then the visual result would be somewhat more natural in appearance the penile cancer thing has been completely debunked she must be going to school on a south pacific island tell her to check the journal or urology for circumcision articles i remember at least on an old jewish man cut at birth who developed penile cancer i mean if the cancer risk was that great the europe who have been circumcising like crazy too teaching a boy how to keep his cockhead clean is the issue a little proper hygiene goes a long way americans are just too hung up on the penis to consider cleaning it that s just way too much like mastubation so you have surgical intervention that is basically unnecessary peter schlumpf university of illinois at urbana champaign
sci.med	can i sell my tens unit sci med people can i sell my tens unit or does it have to be sold by a physician or other liscened person doug opdbs vm cc latech edu
sci.med	re pregnency without sex in article apr oswego oswego edu matthews oswego oswego edu harry matthews writes all right listen up what are the possibilities of transmission through swimming pool water especially if the chlorination isn t up to par i ve heard of community swimming pools refered to as public urinals so what else is going on but the sperm would be very diluted in a x gallon swimming pool j e n n i f e r s c h e i b e r email scheiber sage cc purdue edu school of nursing purdue university
sci.med	re krillean photography in article c oil vuse vanderbilt edu alex vuse vanderbilt edu alexander p zijdenbos writes flame on reading through the posts about kirlian whatever spelling photography i couldn t help but being slightly disgusted by the narrow minded i know it all i don t believe what i can t see or measure attitude of many people out there where have you seen that attitude i am neither a real believer nor a disbeliever when it comes to so called paranormal stuff but as far as i m concerned it is just as likely as the existence of for instance a god which seems to be quite accepted in our societies without any scientific basis i am convinced that it is a serious mistake to close your mind to something anything simply because it doesn t fit your current frame of reference history shows that many great people great scientists were people who kept an open mind and were ridiculed by sceptics fine jackass suppose you point out even one aspect of kirlian photography that s not explained by a corona discharge carl j lydick internet carl sol gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol carl disclaimer hey i understand vaxen and vms that s what i get paid for my understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level or below so unless what i m saying is directly related to vax vms don t hold me or my organization responsible for it if it is related to vax vms you can try to hold me responsible for it but my organization had nothing to do with it
sci.med	persistent vs chronic can anyone out there tell me the difference between a persistent disease and a chronic one for example persistent hepatitis vs chronic hepatitis thanks horace
sci.med	feverfew for migraines i heard a short blurb on the news yesterday about an herb called feverfew that some say is good for preventing migraines i think the news said there were two double blind studies that found this effective does anyone know about these studies or have experience with feverfew i m skeptical but open to trying it if i can find out more about this what is feverfew and how much would you take to prevent migraines if this is a good idea that is are there any known risks or side effects of feverfew thanks in advance for any info brenda
sci.med	re iridology any credence to it iridology is descendant from a th century theory which mapped certain diseases to sectors of the iris of the eye there s enough natural variation in color that a skilled examiner can find indicators of virtually any disease modern scientists consider it to be complete bunk
sci.med	re we can supply you with the transplantants other harvested to order
sci.med	re info colonics and purification colonics were a health fad of the th century which persists to this day except for certain medical conditions there is no reason to do this certainly no normal person should do this frequent use of enemas can lead to a condition in which a person is unable to have normal bowel passage essentially a person becomes addicted to enemas as i understand it this is a very unpleasant condition and it would be best to avoid it
sci.med	re med school admission then there are always osteopathy colleges
sci.med	re pregnency without sex in master cna tek com mikeq freddy cna tek com mike quigley writes in article i write when i was a school boy my biology teacher told us of an incident in which a couple were very passionate without actually having sexual intercourse somehow the girl became pregnent as sperm cells made their way to her through the clothes via persperation was my biology teacher misinforming us or do such incidents actually occur ohboy here we go again and one wonders why the american education system is in such abysmal shape actually this was a school in england this same biology teacher also told me that the reason that stars twinkle is that the small spot of light on the retina sometimes falls between the light recepive cells so his info was suspect from the start stephen
sci.med	re request gyro souvlaki sauce michael trofimoff tron fafnir la locus com wrote hi all would anyone out there in net land happen to have an authentic sure fire way of making this great sauce that is used to adorn gyro s and souvlaki thanks i have a receipe at home that was posted to me by one of our fellow netters about a month ago i am recalling this from memory but i think i m fairly close by the way it was great pint of plain yogurt med sized cucumber finely shredded cloves of garlic more or less by taste tsp dill weed the yogurt is dumped into a strainer lined with a coffee filter and allowed to drain at least hours you can adjust the consistancy of the sauce by increasing this time up to hours the shredded cuc is drained the same way mix it all together and let it steep for at least hours it s better the next day and enjoy steve
sci.med	re krillean photography in article apr ultb isc rit edu eas ultb isc rit edu e a story writes in article rgrsvinnmpr gap caltech edu carl sol gps caltech edu writes greg flame definitely intended here bill was making fun of the misspelling go look up the word krill also the correct spelling is kirlian it involves taking photographs of corona discharges created by attaching the subject to a high voltage source not of some aura it works equally well with inanimate objects true but what about showing the missing part of a leaf is this corona discharge i think i can explain the missing part of a leaf story i have actually seen a reproduction of that particular kirlian photograph in a book compiled by people who were enthusiasts of kirlian photography that particular photograph that s right the effect has been observed only once even the writers of the book were inclined to disbelieve in it i conjecture that the maker of that photograph began by placing a whole leaf between two plates and taking its kirlian photo for his next experiment he cut the leaf in half put one half down between the same two plates and took another k p the missing half effect was created by water oils etc left behind after the first photo this explanation must be tentative because after all i wasn t there when it happened regards chris henrich
sci.med	re krillean photography in article c oil vuse vanderbilt edu alex vuse vanderbilt edu alexander p zijdenbos writes reading through the posts about kirlian whatever spelling photography i couldn t help but being slightly disgusted by the narrow minded i know it all i don t believe what i can t see or measure attitude of many people out there i am neither a real believer nor a disbeliever when it comes to so called paranormal stuff but as far as i m concerned it is just as likely as the existence of for instance a god which seems to be quite accepted in our societies without any scientific basis i am convinced that it is a serious mistake to close your mind to something anything simply because it doesn t fit your current frame of reference history shows that many great people great scientists were people who kept an open mind and were ridiculed by sceptics especially the usa should be grateful after all columbus did not drop off the edge of the earth it is one thing to be open minded about phenomona that have not be demonstrated to be false and quite another to believe in something like krilian photography where all the claimed effects have be demonstrated to be artifacts there is no longer any reason to adopt a wait and see attitude about krilian photography it has been experimentally shown to be nothing but simple coronal discharge the auras shown by missing leaf parts came from moisture left by the original whole leaf for example that s what science is son bill vanhorne
sci.med	re opinions on allergy hay fever shots in article rhb e ks europa eng gtefsd com draper gnd wtp gtefsd com pam draper says this homeopathic remedies i tried the dander one for a month drops three times a day i didn t notice any change whats so ever how long were you using the drops before you noticed a difference it is not a homeopathic remedy improvement began in a few months i am allergic to bermuda grass and if anyone nearby was mowing a lawn my nose would start to run now i can walk right by and it doesn t bother me at all the same success with desert ragweed bruce long
sci.med	re food related seizures michael covington mcovingt aisun ai uga edu wrote how about contaminants on the corn e g aflatoxin little alflatoxin on commercial cereal products and certainly wouldn t cause seizures david ozonoff md mph boston university school of public health dozonoff med itvax bu edu east concord st t c boston ma
sci.med	re krillean photography in article rk miinnkju usenet pa dec com stark dwovax enet dec com todd i stark writes yup the demonstration to which you refer consists of placing a leaf between the plates and taking a kirlian photograph of it you then cut off part of the leaf put the top plate back on and take another kirlian photograph you see pretty much the same image in both cases turns out the effect isn t nearly so striking if you take the trouble to clean the plates between photographs seems that the moisture from the leaf that you left on the place conducts electricity surprise surprise this is true but it s not quite the whole story there were actually some people who were more careful in their methodology who also replicated the phantom leaf effect you can also replicate the effect with a rock take your first kirlian photograph then moisten one edge of the rock lo and behold phantom rock carl j lydick internet carl sol gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol carl disclaimer hey i understand vaxen and vms that s what i get paid for my understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level or below so unless what i m saying is directly related to vax vms don t hold me or my organization responsible for it if it is related to vax vms you can try to hold me responsible for it but my organization had nothing to do with it
sci.med	mevicore vs lopid vs i used to be on lopid it did a good job of reducing cholesterol down to around as well as ldl and triglycerides then i got pneumonia and for some reason the lopid stopped working very well cholesterol and triglycerides soared the levels might have stabilized over time but a new doctor had me quit wait a month then switch to mevicore on mevicore my total cholesterol was down to ldl was and hdl was but the trig s were still very high around and my liver tests came back slightly abnormal sgot n ggtp hard to read copy n he said the liver numbers were not offbase enough to cause him concern and the triglycerides are not as important as the cholesterol figures he had me stop the mevicore to allow the liver to heal just to be extra cautious though i m sure it s not a problem and wants me to go back on it after that i suggested maybe lopid might be the better choice and he said that he wouldn t object if that s what i want to do but lopid has one particular side effect i m not fond of should the above liver and trig figures be feared what happens to folks with high trig levels is my liver in danger with the above results would i be better off on lopid despite its inconvenient side effect or perhaps some other drug niacin affected my liver too
sci.med	experts on edward jenner look i am a student from san leandro high school i am doing a research project for physics and i would like information on edward jenner and the vaccination for small pox any information at all would be greatly apprectiated thank you
sci.med	re krillean photography in article apr ultb isc rit edu eas ultb isc rit edu e a story writes in article rgrsvinnmpr gap caltech edu carl sol gps caltech edu writes it involves taking photographs of corona discharges created by attaching the subject to a high voltage source not of some aura it works equally well with inanimate objects true but what about showing the missing part of a leaf is this corona discharge this effect disappears if you clean your apparatus after you kirlianed the whole leaf and before kirlianing the leaf part thomas kettenring dan kaiserslautern germany the extraterrestrials don t even know this planet has native inhabitants their government doesn t tell them
sci.med	med school admission continued hi all i got several emails and a couple news replies and i guess i shoulda went into more detail being my anxiety level is peaking and you folks have no clue who i am i may as well post the specifics and see what you people think regarding my previous post to recap i applied to schools total of which were md and do as it stands now i have had rejects interviews md and do the results of which are waiting lists md and one do schools i heard nothing from at all i have contacted all institutions other than the rejects and they have no info whatsoever to tell me i have taken a good mix to apply to top schools a bunch of middles and a few safety funny that most of my safety schools were the first to reject me my index is at like a mcats were r p b wq and r p b wr i couldnt get the damn reading score up i never stuff like art history politics etc ive done medical research at the undergrad level done clinical lab work for years now but unfortunately i have no patient contact experience i cant think of what else i left out but thats the summary what percent of people are usually called from the waiting lists on an average i felt that my interviews went quite well yet i dont have a firm acceptance in my hand anyone have any suggestions as to calm the mailbox anxiety if you premeds out there or med students have any questions or comments for me feel free to send them down typing is a form of anti anxiety thereapy hehehehe felix the cat the wonderful wonderful cat meow hoss panix com
sci.med	re med school john carey jcarey news weeg uiowa edu wrote actually i am entering vet school next year but the question is relevant for med students too memorizing large amounts has never been my strong point academically since this is a major portion of medical education anatomy histology pathology pharmacology are for the most part mass memorization i am a little concerned as i am sure most med students are can anyone suggest techniques for this type of memorization i have had reasonable success with nemonics and memory tricks like thinking up little stories to associate unrelated things but i have never applied them to large amounts of data has anyone had luck with any particular books memory systems or cheap software can you suggest any helpful organizational techniques being an older student who returned to school this year organization another one of my weak points has been a major help to my success please no griping about how all you have to do is learn the material conceptually i have no problem with that it is one of my strong points but you can t get around the fact that much of medicine is rote memorization thanks for your help the only suggestion i can think of off the top of my head is get a large supply of index cards and memorize small amounts of info at a time making flash cards and quesitons everytime i get a question wrong i always manage to get the damn thing right the next time felix the cat the wonderful wonderful cat meow hoss panix com
sci.med	re a good place for back surgery gary schuetter garyws cbnewsg cb att com wrote hello just one quick question my father has had a back problem for a long time and doctors have diagnosed an operation is needed since he lives down in mexico he wants to know if there is a hospital anywhere in the united states particulary famous for this kind of surgery kind of like houston has a reputation for excellent doctors in eye surgery any additional info or pointers will be appreciated a whole lot there is one hospital that is here in new york city that is famous for its orthopedists namely the hospital for special surgery they are located on the upper east side of manhattan if you want their address and phone let me know i ll get them i dont know them off hand for those who are interested the hospitals i was referring to are the hospital for special surgery east th street new york ny physician referral service info the hospital for joint diseases east th street new york ny felix the cat the wonderful wonderful cat meow hoss panix com
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article apr llyene jpl nasa gov julie eddie jpl nasa gov julie kangas writes i get tired of people saying don t eat x because it s bad well x may not be bad for everyone and even if it is so what give people all the information but don t ram your decisions down their throats it is evident you did not read my post carefully i wasn t trying to tell you not to eat msg products and produce nor was i arguing for or against msg i was simply questioning the logic of your statement that simply because a one is not allergic to something and b likes eating that it follows that one could keep eating whatever it is in my post i had clearly said that i don t know enough about msg the statement don t eat x because its bad is just your interpretation of nutritional info out there prakash das
sci.med	re krillean photography in article apr linus mitre org gpivar mitre org the pancake emporium writes in article apr scorch apana org au bill scorch apana org au bill dowding writes todamhyp charles unlv edu brian m huey writes i think that s the correct spelling i am looking for any information supplies that will allow do it yourselfers to take krillean pictures i m thinking that education suppliers for schools might have a appartus for sale but i don t know any of the companies any info is greatly appreciated krillean photography involves taking pictures of minute decapods resident in the seas surrounding the antarctic or pictures taken by them perhaps bill from oz bill no flame intended but you re way way off base in simple terms kirilian photography registers the electromagnetical fields around objects in simple it takes pictures of your aura greg you re confused you are talking about kirilian photography bill is talking krillean photography tad ssc com if it bounces use mcimail com tad cook packet amateur radio home phone seattle wa kt h n duo wa usa na
sci.med	copper bracelet sabona by dr john sorenson i have seen copper bracelet by the name of sabona created by dr john sorenson i am looking for literature on the effectiveness of copper bracelet in dealing with arthritis i know in one case a year old person developed bruise at the base of her left thumb after wearing the copper bracelet on her left wrist for several months she was told the bruise is normal and would disappear is the bruise reason to be concerned should the person discontinued wearing the copper bracelet could anyone kindly point me to literature on copper bracelet what are the other information on copper bracelet your response would be very much appreciated thank you lau hon wah
sci.med	centi and milli pedes does anyone know how posionous centipedes and millipedes are if someone was bitten how soon would medical treatment be needed and what would be liable to happen to the person just for clarification i have not been bitten by one of these but my house seems to be infested and i want to know just in case rebecca
sci.med	re krillean photography very good
sci.med	schatzki ring pvc s can anybody out there provide me with any advice concerning the following two health problems first i was recently diagnosed using a ugi series as having a schatzki ring and small sliding hiatal hernia as i understand it the hernia is a relatively minor problem though i do occasionally have some nasty heartburn that is probably related to it the schatzki ring on the other hand is causing swallowing difficulty in particular if i m not careful about eating slowly and thoroughly chewing food food occasionally gets stuck before reaching my stomach this results in a period of painful spasms as the food attempts to pass the obstruction fortunately the food has always managed to pass but this is annoying and causes frequent discomfort my doctor wants to dilate the ring using the following procedure use an endoscope to examine the esophagus and stomach for any inflammation then cut through the ring and dilate it by passing some kind of balloon or something thru the esophagous i would like to know if anyone out there has had this or a similar procedure done if so was it painful successful etc also can anyone comment on safety advisability and success rate of this procedure has it become a common procedure i am kind of leery of having such an invasive sounding procedure performed for a currently non threatening condition such as this especially considering the possible side effects bleeding perforation reaction to anesthesia the second issue for the past years i have had a large number of extra heartbeats in particular during the past month or so there has been a dramatic increase a holter monitor recently showed pvc s in hrs along with a few pac s many days there are far more than this however five to ten per hour all of them were isolated and the cardiologist indicated that such a number was normal it certainly doesn t feel normal in the past there have also been a couple of episodes of extended runs of these beats one of which lasted long enough to cause severe light headedness i am relatively young ish thin and in good health recent bloodtests were all normal and do not smoke use drugs or caffeine etc i m willing to accept the extra beats as normal but don t want to ignore them if they might be some kind of warning symptom the number of pvc s seems to increase throughout the day and with exercise or something as simple as climbing some stairs also if i get up after sitting or lying down for a while i tend to get a couple of extra beats could they possibly be related to the esophagous problems both seemed to develop at about the same time thanks for any help advice
sci.med	miscelaneous soon to have baby questions we re about to have our first baby and have a few questions that we dont seem to be able to get answered to our satisfaction reguarding having a baby boy circumsized what are the medical pros and cons all we ve heard is its up to the parents how about the pregnant woman sitting in a tub of water we ve heard stories of infection etc how about after the water has broken rmccown world std com old macdonald had an agricultural real estate tax abatement
sci.med	re kidney stones a student told me today that she has been diagnosed with kidney stones a cyst on one kidney and a kidney infection she was upset because her condition had been misdiagnosed since last fall and she has been ill all this time during her most recent doctor s appointment at her parents hmo clinic she said that about forty x rays were made of her kidney when she asked why so many x rays were being made she was told by a technician that they need to see the area from different views but she says that about five x rays were made from each angle she couldn t help feeling that something must be wrong with the procedure or something she is a pre med student and feels she could have understood what was happening if someone would have explained when nobody would she got worried also she is told that thre are surgery patients ahead of her and that they cannot do surgery until august or so it is now april she is supposed to rest a lot and drink fluids but she has to go to classes she wonders why they have given her no medicine she plans to call back her doctor s office clinic and try to get answers to these questions but i told her i would also write in to sci med and see what i could find out about why there were so many x rays and whether it seems o k to wait in line or more months for surgery for something like this or whether she should be looking elsewhere for her care she does plan to get a second opinion too i will pass info on to her it never hurts to get information from more than one source you can e mail me or post thanks alice
sci.med	re pregnency without sex in article apr oswego oswego edu matthews oswego oswego edu harry matthews writes all right listen up what are the possibilities of transmission through swimming pool water especially if the chlorination isn t up to par i ve heard of community swimming pools refered to as public urinals so what else is going on no dice as soon as the sperm cells hit the water they would virtually explode the inside of the cell is hypertonic and since the membrane is semipermeable water would rush in and cause the cell to burst kenneth gilbert university of pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not a programmer
sci.med	new method for diagnosing alzheimer s disease discovered here is a press release from huntington medical research institutes new method for diagnosing alzheimer s disease discovered at huntington medical research institutes results to be reported to national desk health writer contact john lockhart or belinda gerber or for the huntington medical research institutes los angeles april a new method for diagnosing and measuring chemical imbalances in the brain which lead to alzheimer s disease and other dementias has been discovered by researchers at the huntington medical research institutes hmri in pasadena calif results of their research will be reported in the may issue of the scientific journal radiology using an advanced form of magnetic resonance imaging mri called magnetic resonance spectroscopy mrs a research team led by brian d ross m d d phil conducted a study on elderly patients who were believed to be suffering from some form of dementia the exams used standard mri equipment fitted with special software developed at hmri called clinical proton mrs clinical proton mrs is easily applied giving doctors confirmatory diagnoses in less than minutes an automated version of clinical proton mrs called proton brain examination probe reduces the examination time yet further providing confirmatory diagnoses in less than minutes by comparison the current standard of care in testing for alzheimer s disease calls for lengthy memory function and neuropsychological tests which can be very upsetting to the patient are not definitive and can only be confirmed by autopsy in addition to alzheimer s disease the new clinical proton mrs exam may have applications in diagnosing other dementias including aids related dementia parkinson s disease and huntington s disease we ve developed a simple test which can be administered quickly and relatively inexpensively using existing mri equipment fitted with either the mrs or probe software said dr ross adding this will help physicians to diagnose alzheimer s earlier and intervene with therapeutics before the progression of the disease causes further damage to the delicate inner workings of the brain dr ross and his hmri team measured a family of chemicals in the brain known as inositols and myo inositol mi acted as a marker in the study in comparison to healthy patients those diagnosed with alzheimer s showed a percent increase in mi while their level of another chemical called n acetylaspartate naa was significantly lower indicating a loss of brain stimulating neurons believed to be associated with the progression of the disease current drug therapy for alzheimer s disease is widely considered to be inadequate this is attributable dr ross believes to the theory that alzheimer s is caused by an interruption in the transmission of the chemical acetylcholine to the nerve cells this belief has been adhered to over the last years and consequently most drugs to treat alzheimer s were based on the changing receptors for acetylcholine physicians have a real need for a test to differentiate alzheimer s from other dementias to provide the patient and his or her family with a firm diagnosis and to monitor future treatment protocols for the treatment of this disease for this reason we consider this test a major advancement in medicine said bruce miller m d a noted neurologist at harbor ucla mrs researcher and a co author of the study other members of the hmri research team included rex a moats ph d truda shonk b s thomas ernst ph d and suzanne woolley r n the probe software can be fitted on the approximately general electric mri units currently in use in the united states and will be configured for other manufacturers mri units soon for interviews with dr ross advance copies of the radiology may issue and other information please contact john lockhart or belinda gerber for hmri at or q a on alzheimer s disease what is alzheimer s disease and how is it caused alzheimer s disease ad is an incurable degenerative disease of the brain first described in by the german neuropathologist alois alzheimer as the disease progresses it leads to loss of memory and mental functioning followed by changes in personality loss of control of bodily functions and eventually death how many people does it affect alzheimer s disease affects an estimated million adults in the united states and is the fourth leading cause of death taking approximately lives each year while alzheimer s debilitates its victims it is equally devastating both emotionally and financially for patients families ad is the most common cause of dementia in adults symptoms worsen every year and death usually occurs within years of initial onset what are its signs and symptoms although the cause of ad is not known two risk factors have been identified advanced age and genetic predisposition the risk of developing ad is less than one percent before the age of yars old but increases steeply in each successive decade of life to reach percent by the age of in patients with familial ad immediate family relatives have a percent chance of developing ad one of its first symptoms is severe forgetfulness caused by short term memory loss dr herman weinreb of the school of medicine at new york university says whether forgetfulness is a serious symptom or not is largely a matter of degree and suggests the following criteria forgetting the name of someone you see infrequently is normal forgetting the name of a loved one is serious forgetting where you left your keys is normal forgetting how to get home is serious doctors suggest that people with severe symptoms should be evaluated in order to rule out alzheimer s disease and other forms of dementia canada remote systems toronto ontario
sci.med	results of gusto heart attack study to be released friday here is a press release from medical science communications results of gusto heart attack study to be released friday to assignment desk medical writer contact jim augustine of medical science communication or steve hull or tracy furey or april or j w marriott news advisory results of the largest heart attack study ever undertaken the global utilization of streptokinase and t pa for occluded coronary arteries trial gusto will be presented friday april at the clinical research meeting a press conference will be held at p m gusto evaluates the most aggressive emergency room treatment strategies available to clear blocked heart arteries and restore blood flow to the heart a process called thrombolysis the thrombolytic strategies compared in gusto use powerful drugs to break up blood clots in heart vessels quickly and prevent clots from recurring these strategies have never been compared directly in a large scale clinical trial until gusto the results are expected to have an important impact on heart attack treatment worldwide the press conference will be held at two locations live at the national press club main lounge th floor th st n w washington d c and via satellite at the hotel macklowe w th street th floor new york city between broadway and th avenue gusto results will be presented by eric topol m d gusto study chairman professor and chairman of the department of cardiology at the cleveland clinic foundation robert califf m d clinical director gusto coordinating center and associate professor of medicine at duke university medical center and allan ross m d coordinator of the gusto angiographic substudy and professor and director of the division of cardiology at the george washington university medical center editorial notes attention television the press conference may be viewed in its entirety via satellite starting at p m edt c band telestar transponder v dual audio or kusbs transponder following the press conference there will be a news package and b roll feed camera ready illustrations also will be available at the press conference telephone hook up to the press conference is planned availability is limited please call mcs for more information for reporters who will be at the sheraton washington attending the clinical research meeting on friday morning minibus transportation will be provided to the press conference the bus will depart at p m it also will be available for return to the sheraton after the press conference for more information contact steve hull or tracy furey of mcs for the gusto study group at or at the j w marriott april to april at or for more information about the clinical research meeting contact jim augustine of medical science communications at canada remote systems toronto ontario
sci.med	need prozac info i m looking for information regarding dosages of prozac used in minor depression also any other information regarding the drug is helpful please send responses direct thanks rrome nyx cs du edu
sci.med	sheep in cardiac research dear news readers is there anyone using sheep models for cardiac research specifically concerned with arrhythmias pacing or defibrillation i would like to hear from you many thanks andrew mears please email me andrewm iris bio uts edu au andrew mears h crc for cardiac technology uts w westbourne st gore hill f n s w email andrewm iris bio uts edu au
sci.med	re strain gage applications in vivo in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu ame bigdog engr arizona edu terrance j dishongh writes greeting i am starting work on a project where i am trying to make strain gages bond to bone in vivo or a period of several months i am currently using hydroxyapaptite back gages and i have tried m bonding the gages to the bone apart from those two application methods there doesn t seem to be much else in the literature i have only an engineering background not medical or biological i would be interest in any ideas about how to stimulte bone growth on the surface of cortical bone thanks for oyur help in advance terrance j dishongh ame bigdog engr arizona edu it sounds as though you might want to try a product such as super glue the active ingredient is cynoacrylate the same compound used to reconstruct bones i have successfully used superglue for a number of procedures on many different species of animal if you are simply trying to adhear something to bone for several months this would be ideal it bonds almost immediatly is resistant to infection and is non irritating to surrounding tissue phil bowman manager lab animal resources university of montana missoula mt larpjb selway umt edu wg phil bowman manager laboratory animal resources
sci.med	re urine analysis in article rm bn kps transfer stratus com randy faneuf vos stratus com writes someone please help me i am searching to find out as many others may an absolute cure to removing all detectable traces of marijuana from a persons body is there a chemical or natural substance that can be ingested or added to urine to make it undetectable in urine analysis if so where can these substances be found you could do what i do never go near the stuff michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
sci.med	sheep models in cardiology dear news readers is there anyone using sheep models for cardiac research specifically concerned with arrhythmias pacing or defibrillation i would like to hear from you many thanks andrew mears please email me andrew mears h crc for cardiac technology uts w westbourne st gore hill f n s w email andrewm iris bio uts edu au
sci.med	cortisone shots i need some information on the implications of receiving cortisone shots for a seasonal allergic condition i ve had the usual skin prick tests for the common allergies but reacted to none of the substances so for the last two seasons i ve received cortisone shots but the doctors seem reluctant to give more than two or three shots why what are the dangers
sci.med	re looking for info on kemotherapy p kinda long in article rjpu innmij shelley u washington edu kryan stein u washington edu kerry ryan writes hello a friend is under going kemotherapy sp for breast cancer i m trying to learn what i can about it any info would be appreciated thanks you ve asked a toughie of a question there are many different drugs which are used for chemotherapy the overall purpose of chemotherapy don t worry about the spelling some of these crazy medical words are impossible to spell is to either destroy cancer cells or to keep them from growing different drugs have different effects on cancer cells and therefore it is not uncommon to use more than one drug at a time some chemotherapeutic drugs are effective anytime during the growth cycle of a cell others work only at specific times during the cell cycle the first phase of the cell cycle is g it is when the protein synthesis and rna systhesis occurs in the second phase s synthesis of dna occurs the third phase is g the dna splits and rna and protein are synthesized aagain in the fourth phase m or mitosis the cell may divide there are drugs which are effective in each phase some stop dna synthesis others stop the cell from dividing others wreck protein synthesis at any rate the end result that is being sought is for the cancer cells to stop growing if what you are seeking is practical advice i apologize for rambling on the techno stuff some side effects are pretty common chemo drugs are rather nasty it can cause a person to lose their appetite and to experience nausea and vomiting things to help this include eating small frequent meals it is also suggested that if nausea vomiting hereafter known as n v occurs that the person notify the doctor there are medicines tthat help nausea diarrhea can be an effect antidiarrheal medications can be given and good skincare and fluid intake are important probably the one of biggest concsern is hair loss this does not always happen it depends on what drugs are being given and on the person themself different people taking the same drug can and do have different side effects i have seen some literature which states that wearing a snug headband and or wearing an ice cap can help reduce hair loss presumably by reducing blood flow to the scalp if anyone has seen research on this too i would love to see it and possibly some bib data i highly recommend making contact with the american cancer society they have a vast selection of literature and information in addition if your friend has had a mastectomy i highly recommend reach for recovery it is a support group comprised entirely of women who have lost a breast because of cancer they can offer some excellent support and suggestions if you have further questions please send me e mail i hav some good access to information and i enjoy trying to help other people i wish the best to you and your friend
sci.med	hives my wife had hives during the first two months of her pregnancy my son months old breast fed now has the same symptoms she has been to a skin specialist but he has merely prescribed various medicines one each visit as though by trial and error anti histamines worked on both of them but looks like becoming less effective are there other solutions thanks kiong beng kee dept of information systems and computer science national university of singapore lower kent ridge road singapore
sci.med	re miscelaneous soon to have baby questions in article c inz world std com rmccown world std com bob mccown writes we re about to have our first baby and have a few questions that we dont seem to be able to get answered to our satisfaction reguarding having a baby boy circumsized what are the medical pros and cons all we ve heard is its up to the parents unfortonately that truly is about the best summation of the research that there is advantages stated of circumcison included probably prevention of penile cancer which interestingly occurs mostly in men whose personal hygiene is exceptionally poor simplicity of personal hygiene prevention of urinary tract infections and prevention of a unretractible foreskin disadvantages include infection from the procedure pain etc i apologize i am trying to pull this off the top of my head i will post what i discovered in research i did a paper on the topic in my research class in nursing school it really is a decision that is up to the parents some parents use the reasoning that they will look like daddy and like their friends as justification there is nothing wrong with this just be sure it is what you want to do since it is rather difficult to uncircumcise a male although a major surgical procedure exists how about the pregnant woman sitting in a tub of water we ve heard stories of infection etc how about after the water has broken as long as your membranes have not broken and you have not had any problems with your pregnancy it should be ok to sit in a tub of water however i would recommend using your own bathtub in your own home it is nearly impossible to guarantee the cleanliness and safety of public hot tubs a nice warm bath can be very relaxing especially if your back is killing you and it would possibly be advisable to avoid bubble bath soap esp if you are prone to yeast infection hope these tips help you some elisa picl fsphy physics fsu edu
sci.med	kidney stones banschbach vms ocom okstate edu marty banschbach writes b medicine has not and probalby never will be practiced this way there b has always been the use of conventional wisdom a very good example is b kidney stones conventional wisdom because clinical trails have not been b done to come up with an effective prevention was that restricitng the b intake of calcium and oxalates was the best way to prevent kidney stones b from forming clinical trials focused on drugs or ultrasonic blasts to b breakdown the stone once it formed through the recent new england j of b medicine article we now know that conventional wisdom was wrong b increasing calcium intake is better at preventing stone formation than is b restricting calcium intake b marty b marty i personally wouldn t be so quick and take that nejm article on kidney stones as gospel first of all i would want to know who sponsored that study i have seen too many nutrition bulletins over the years from local newspapers magazines to tv guide with disclaimers on the bottom informing us that this great health news was brought to us compliments of the dairy industries there are of course numerous other interest groups now that thrive financially on the media hype created from the supposedly enormous benefits of increasing one s calcium intake secondly were all the kidney stones of the test subjects involved in that project analysed for their chemical composition the study didn t say that it only claimed that most kidney stones are large ly calcium perhaps it won t be long before another study comes up with the exact opposite findings a curious phenomenon with researchers is that they are oftentimes just plain wrong it wouldn t be the first time sodium magnesium calcium phosphorus ratios are in my opinion still the most reliable indicators for the cause treatment and prevention of kidney stones i for one will continue to recommend the most logical changes in one s diet or through supplementation to counteract or prevent kidney stones of either type and they definitely won t include an increase in calcium if the stones have been identified as being of the calcium type and people s chemical analysis confirms that they would benefit from a phosphorus raising approach instead ron roth internet rn rose com rosenet ron roth rosehamilton a stone on the ground is better than a stone in the body rosereader p entered at rosehamilton rosemail usenet rose media hamilton
sci.med	re umbilical hernia in article apr shannon ee wits ac za gary concave cs wits ac za gary taylor writes could anyone give me information on umbilical hernias the patient is over weight and has a protruding hernia surgery may be risky due to the obesity what other remedies could i try unless the patient has a very short life expectancy the possible complications from a hernia that hasn t been repaired far outweigh the risks of surgery the risks of surgery anyway are minimal unless they are exceedingly large hernias can be fixed under local anesthesia don t forget that hernias are one the leading causes of small bowel obstruction and the smaller the hernia is the higher the chances that a loop of bowel will become incarcerated or strangulated howard doyle doyle pitt edu
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction i am currently in the throes of a hay fever attack so who certainly never reads usenet let alone sci med said quite spontaneously there are a lot of mushrooms and toadstools out on the lawn at the moment sure that s not your problem well who knows or maybe it s the sourdough bread i bake after reading learned semi learned possibly ignorant and downright ludicrous stuff in this thread i am about ready to believe anything if the hayfever gets any worse maybe i will cook those toadstools the floggings will continue until morale improves pchurch swell actrix gen nz pat churchill wellington new zealand
sci.med	re opinions on allergy hay fever shots in article apr midway uchicago edu jacquier gsbux uchicago edu eric jacquier writes i am interested in trying this desensitization method against hay fever what is the state of affairs about this i went to a doctor and paid for a minute interview scratches leading to the diagnostic that i am allergic to june and timothy grass i believe this from now on it looks like shots per week for months followed by shot per month or so each shot costs talking about soaring costs and the health care system i would call that a racket we are not talking about rare amazonian grasses here but the garbage which grows behind the doctor s office apart from this issue i was somewhat disappointed to find out that you have to keep getting the shots forever is that right thanks for information go to your public library and get the february issue of consumer reports an article on allergy shots begins on page this article is must reading for anyone contemplating allergy shots
sci.med	re sinus surgery septoplasty in article badboyc t z fgq netcom com badboy netcom com jay keller writes i ve already heard from a couple who said they had it and it didn t really help them i am a moderately severe asthmatic ent doc says large percentage see some relief of their asthma after sinus surgery also he said it is not unheard of that migraines go away after chronis sinusitis is relieved did your ent also tell you that this procedure may remove warts from the soles of your feet and improve your sex life
sci.med	allergic reactions against laser printers hello does anyone know about allergic reactions caused by the developer toner of laser printers what chemical stuff is involved thanks in advance reinhard email rdd ibma ipp garching mpg de
sci.med	re strain gage applications in vivo in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu ame bigdog engr arizona edu terrance j dishongh writes greeting i am starting work on a project where i am trying to make strain gages bond to bone in vivo or a period of several months i am currently using hydroxyapaptite back gages and i have tried m bonding the gages to the bone apart from those two application methods there doesn t seem to be much else in the literature i have only an engineering background not medical or biological i would be interest in any ideas about how to stimulte bone growth on the surface of cortical bone thanks for oyur help in advance terrance j dishongh ame bigdog engr arizona edu terrance there is a good article entitled a long term in vivo bone strain measurement device journal of investigative surgery by szivek ja magee fp i think you can find some others by searching medline partap s khalsa ms dc faco post doc research fellow u mass med school
sci.med	re feverfew for migraines in article ltrdroinnltf exodus eng sun com brenda bookhouse eng sun com brenda bowden writes does anyone know about these studies or have experience with feverfew i m skeptical but open to trying it if i can find out more about this what is feverfew and how much would you take to prevent migraines if this is a good idea that is are there any known risks or side effects of feverfew thanks in advance for any info brenda i ve tried it and so has one friend of mine no known side effects or risks it didn t seem to work for us but several studies now have suggested it does work for many people so i think it s worth a try you can find it in capsule form at health food stores up to six capsules a day was recommended if i remember correctly it can also be prepared as a tea good luck john
sci.med	urine analysis someone please help me i am searching to find out as many others may an absolute cure to removing all detectable traces of marijuana from a persons body is there a chemical or natural substance that can be ingested or added to urine to make it undetectable in urine analysis if so where can these substances be found if you know this information please email me directly thank you kindly for your support randy
sci.med	re sinus surgery septoplasty in article kmldorf utdallas edu george kimeldorf writes in article badboy netcom com jay keller writes i ve already heard from a couple who said they had it and it didn t really help them i am a moderately severe asthmatic ent doc says large percentage see some relief of their asthma after sinus surgery also he said it is not unheard of that migraines go away after chronis sinusitis is relieved did your ent also tell you that this procedure may remove warts from the soles of your feet and improve your sex life actually severe headaches due to stopped up sinuses plugged ostia are possible and sinus surgery which widens the ostia from the normal mm to about mm should relieve this there are non surgical ways however to keep the ostia open however in a few individuals their ostia are naturally very small and dr ivker s book talks about this the underlying cause of chronic sinusitis is not cured by this kind of sinus surgery though about asthma that s a little more controversial dr ivker in his book sinus survival speculates and says it s not proven that many cases of asthma are triggered by chronic sinusitis due to the excessive drainage postnasal drip from the sinuses he s had many patients who ve found relief from asthma when the chronic sinusitis is reduced or eliminated not clinical proof but compelling anecdotal information of this speculation before doing any sinus surgery first get the book it discusses surgery as well as a good non surgical treatment program for chronic sinusitis jon noring charter member infj club if you re dying to know what infj means be brave e mail me i ll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip fred s gourmet chocolate carlton place phone chips world s best livermore ca v mail who are you read alt psychology personality that s where the action is
sci.med	re what s the origin of stat in article apr zeus calpoly edu dfield flute calpoly edu infospunj dan field writes the term stat is used not only in medicine but is a commonly used indicator that something is urgent does anyone know where it came from my dictionary was not helpful from the word statim latin i think meaning immediately howard doyle doyle pitt edu
sci.med	re info colonics and purification in article rjn einnnqn minerva cis yale edu wiesel elisha yale edu elisha wiesel writes recently i ve come upon a body of literature which promotes colon cleansing as a vital aid to preventive medicine through nutrition no doubt the sci med folks are getting out their flamethrowers i m rather certain that the information you got was not medical literature in the accepted academic scientific journals so the righteous among them will no doubt jump on that also insofar as it doesn t conform to the accepted medical presumption that it just doesn t matter what you eat and that we can think of the gi tract as a black box in which nothing ever goes wrong except for maybe cancer and ulcers the righteous will no doubt jump on that too then there ll be the ones who call your doctor a raving quack even though he like linus pauling is lucid and robust well into his nineties but nevermind about that he shouldn t charge for his equipment and supplies since they re no doubt not approved by the fda of course with fda approval an md or pharmaceutical company can charge whatever they can get for such safe and effective treatments as thalidomide but nevermind about that either unfortunately you dared to step into the sacred turf of net medical discussion without a credential and without understanding that the righteous among them will make certain that you are suitably denounced before dismissing you as a fool but maybe somebody without such a huge chip on their shoulder will send you some reasonable responses by e mail oh yes i did have a point a few years ago an md with a thriving practice in a very wealthy part of silicon valley once recommended that i take such treatments to clear up a skin condition not through his office i might add although i m sure that s not conclusive it was sure an unusual prescription r
sci.med	re kidney stones in article apr ux cts eiu edu cfaks ux cts eiu edu alice sanders writes a student told me today that she has been diagnosed with kidney stones a cyst on one kidney and a kidney infection she was upset because her condition had been misdiagnosed since last fall and she has been ill all this time during her most recent doctor s appointment at her parents hmo clinic she said that about forty x rays were made of her kidney when she asked why so many x rays were being made she was told by a technician that they need to see the area from different views but she says that about five x rays were made from each angle she couldn t help feeling that something must be wrong with the procedure or something she is a pre med student and feels she could have understood what was happening if someone would have explained when nobody would she got worried also she is told that thre are surgery patients ahead of her and that they cannot do surgery until august or so it is now april she is supposed to rest a lot and drink fluids but she has to go to classes she wonders why they have given her no medicine she plans to call back her doctor s office clinic and try to get answers to these questions but i told her i would also write in to sci med and see what i could find out about why there were so many x rays and whether it seems o k to wait in line or more months for surgery for something like this or whether she should be looking elsewhere for her care she does plan to get a second opinion too i will pass info on to her it never hurts to get information from more than one source you can e mail me or post thanks alice my opinion for what it s worth is that x rays is way too many guidleines have been set on the number of dental x rays and chest x rays that one should have over a given period of time because of all the environmental factors that can cause cancer in humans ionizing radiation is one of the most potent splits dna and causes hydroxyl free radical formation in tissue cells ultasound like that used in seeing the fetus in the uterus has been shown to be extremely good at picking up tumors in the prostate and gallstones in the gallbladder but kidney tissue may be too dense for ultrasound to work for kidney stones any radiologists care to comment most stones will pass but it s a very painful process unlike gallstones i don t think that there are many drugs that can help dissolve the kidney stone which is probably calcium oxalate vitamin c and magnesium have worked in rabbits to remove calcium from calcified plaques in the aterial wall i have no idea if a diet change or supplementation could speed up the process of kidney stone passage but i m pretty confident that a diet change and or supplementation can prevent a reoccurance if surgery is being contemplated the stone must be in the kidney tubule a second opinion is a good idea because there are better less damaging ways to break up the stone if it s logged within the kidney sonic blasts hmo s are notorious for conservative care and long waits for expensvie treatments my condolences to your friend marty b
sci.med	earwax what is the healthiest way to deal with earwax should one just leave it in your ear and not mess with it or should you clean it out every so often can cleaning it out damage your eardrums are there any tubes in your ear that might get blocked stephen
sci.med	re persistent vs chronic in article enea enea apple com enea applelink apple com horace enea writes can anyone out there tell me the difference between a persistent disease and a chronic one for example persistent hepatitis vs chronic hepatitis i don t think there is a general distinction rather there are two classes of chronic hepatitis chronic active hepatitis and chronic persistent hepatitis i can t think of any other disease where the term persistent is used with or in preference to chronic much as these two terms chronic active and chronic persistent sound fuzzy the actual distinction between the two conditions is often fairly fuzzy as well david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
sci.med	old sermon was krillean photography in article c oil vuse vanderbilt edu alex vuse vanderbilt edu alexander p zijdenbos writes flame on reading through the posts about kirlian whatever spelling photography i couldn t help but being slightly disgusted by the narrow minded i know it all i don t believe what i can t see or measure attitude of many people out there i am neither a real believer nor a disbeliever when it comes to so called paranormal stuff but as far as i m concerned it is just as likely as the existence of for instance a god which seems to be quite accepted in our societies without any scientific basis i am convinced that it is a serious mistake to close your mind to something anything simply because it doesn t fit your current frame of reference history shows that many great people great scientists were people who kept an open mind and were ridiculed by sceptics especially the usa should be grateful after all columbus did not drop off the edge of the earth flame off or end sermon we know that sermon it is posted roughly every month or so by different persons and that doesn t make it any better how did you get the idea that skeptics are closed minded why don t you consider the possibility that they came to their conclusions by the proper methods besides one can come to a conclusion without closing one s mind to other possibilities i you don t agree with a person please ask him why he thinks like that instead of insulting him perhaps he s right follow your own advice be open minded if you don t post a bit of evidence for your claims i ll complain that it s always those neither a real believer nor a disbeliever types who narrow mindedly judge others without knowing their motives thomas kettenring dan kaiserslautern germany the extraterrestrials don t even know this planet has native inhabitants their government doesn t tell them
sci.med	re allergic reactions against laser printers in sci med rdd uts ipp garching mpg de reinhard drube writes hello does anyone know about allergic reactions caused by the developer toner of laser printers what chemical stuff is involved thanks in advance reinhard email rdd ibma ipp garching mpg de do i ever after years of having health problems that had been cleared up w allery shots and not knowing why i went and was re tested i actually did better than when i had been tested years ago then putting together i realized that it all started back up when the laser printer came into the office i kept track of the usage and on hi use days i was worse i got better over the weekends the laser printer is gone i m better whether it is the toner dust or chemicals i dont know i am highly allergic to dust but it definitely was the laser printer brenda peters carderock div nswc david taylor model basin bethesda md e mail cape dtvms dt navy mil or bpeters oasys dt navy mil
sci.med	vitamin b doses forgive me but just the other day i read on some newsgroup or other a physician s posting about the theraputic uses of vitamin b i can t seem to locate the article but i recall there was mention of some safe limits i looked at a balanced time release formulation from walgreen s and noted that the mg of b was some thousands times the rda is this safe also what was the condition that b was theraputic for mail would be just fine if you don t want to clog the net thanks leon traister lmtra uts amdahl com
sci.med	re krillean photography in article c fum b news claremont edu ebrandt jarthur claremont edu eli brandt writes in article mmeyer apr m dseg ti com mmeyer m dseg ti com mark meyer writes besides kirilian photography is actually photography of my friend s two year old son kiril perhaps you meant kirlian i think it was a typo for karelian photography which is the practice of taking pictures of either finns or russians depending on whom one asks think we can lose the sci image processing group from this thread folks thanks bunches spl steve lamont sciviguy spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource uc san diego la jolla ca my other car is a car too bumper strip seen on i
sci.med	chromium as dietary suppliment for weight loss my wife has requested that i poll the sages of usenet to see what is known about the use of chromium in weight control diet suppliments she has seen multiple products advertising it and would like any kind real information my first impulse was yuck a metal but i have zero data on it what do you know henry melton rhca melton sps mot com
sci.med	re centi and milli pedes msnyder nmt edu rebecca snyder writes does anyone know how posionous centipedes and millipedes are if someone was bitten how soon would medical treatment be needed and what would be liable to happen to the person just for clarification i have not been bitten by one of these but my house seems to be infested and i want to know just in case rebecca millipedes i understand are vegetarian and therefore almost certainly will not bite and are not poisonous centipedes are carnivorous and although i don t have any absolute knowledge on this i would tend to think that you re in no danger from anything but a concerted assault by several million of them g
sci.med	re krillean photography in article c g j efi com alanm efi com alan morgan writes in article c oil vuse vanderbilt edu alex vuse vanderbilt edu alexander p zijdenbos writes i am neither a real believer nor a disbeliever when it comes to so called paranormal stuff but as far as i m concerned it is just as likely as the existence of for instance a god which seems to be quite accepted in our societies without any scientific basis oooooh bad example i m an atheist this is not flame or abuse nor do i want to start another thread this is after all supposed to be about image processing but to say you re an atheist is to suggest you have proof there is no god to be a politically correct skeptic better to go with agnostic like me dr thomas trusk dept of cellular biology anatomy email to ttrusk its mcw edu medical college of wisconsin milwaukee wi
sci.med	re schatzki ring pvc s in article apr betsy gsfc nasa gov ohandley betsy gsfc nasa gov wrote summarized a person with a schatzki s ring a membrane partially blocking the espphagus has worsening dysphagia difficulty swallowing and the doctor proposes dilation by balloow or bougie using an inflatable balloon to rupture the ring or a rubber hose to push through it question is balloon dilation safe common and indicated it sounds pretty invasive end summary yes this is a common and safe procedure the majority of schatzki s rings described by x ray however wnd up being due to inflammation instead of the congenital schatzki s ring occassionally a cancer masquerades as a ring you should have the endoscopy to see if it is due to the heartburn and if so you will need treatment for the heartburn ong term the balloon dilation is an alternative to cutting open your chest and cutting out a section of the esophagus so dilation is not at all invasive considering the alternative the second issue summarized he has had extra heartbeats for the past to years and once was symptomatic from them with some lightheadedness he is young ish thin and in good health recent bloodtests were all normal and do not smoke use drugs or caffeine etc i m willing to accept the extra beats as normal but don t want to ignore them if they might be some kind of warning symptom the number of pvc s seems to increase throughout the day and with exercise or something as simple as climbing some stairs also if i get up after sitting or lying down for a while i tend to get a couple of extra beats could they possibly be related to the esophagous problems both seemed to develop at about the same time i not an expert on heart problems but pvc s are common and have been overtreated in the past my personal experience and i have the same history an build you do related to the heart that is is that my pvc s come and go with some months causing anxiety taking on more fluids seems to help and they seem worse in the summer remember that a slow heart rate will allow more pvc s to be apparent so perhaps it is an indication of a healthy cardiac system but ask an expert about that last point especially good luck hope we don t die of arrhythmias god what a happy thought steve holland
sci.med	re info colonics and purification in article apr informix com hartman informix com robert hartman writes in article rjn einnnqn minerva cis yale edu wiesel elisha yale edu elisha wiesel writes recently i ve come upon a body of literature which promotes colon cleansing as a vital aid to preventive medicine through nutrition no doubt the sci med folks are getting out their flamethrowers i m rather certain that the information you got was not medical literature in the accepted academic scientific journals so the righteous among them will no doubt jump on that also insofar as it doesn t conform to the accepted medical presumption that it just doesn t matter what you eat and that we can think of the gi tract as a black box in which nothing ever goes wrong except for maybe cancer and ulcers the righteous will no doubt jump on that too then there ll be the ones who call your doctor a raving quack even though he like linus pauling is lucid and robust well into his nineties but nevermind about that he shouldn t charge for his equipment and supplies since they re no doubt not approved by the fda of course with fda approval an md or pharmaceutical company can charge whatever they can get for such safe and effective treatments as thalidomide but nevermind about that either unfortunately you dared to step into the sacred turf of net medical discussion without a credential and without understanding that the righteous among them will make certain that you are suitably denounced before dismissing you as a fool but maybe somebody without such a huge chip on their shoulder will send you some reasonable responses by e mail oh yes i did have a point a few years ago an md with a thriving practice in a very wealthy part of silicon valley once recommended that i take such treatments to clear up a skin condition not through his office i might add although i m sure that s not conclusive it was sure an unusual prescription the bacteria in your gut are important but colonic flushes are not the way to improve gut function each person has almost a unique mix of bacteria in his her gut diet affects this mix as does the use of antibiotics a diet change is a much better way to alter the players in your gut than is colonic flushes cross contamination has been a real problem in some of the outfits that do this treatment since the equipment is not always cleaned as well as it should be between patient treatments dental drills have me a little concerned about hiv infection and i ve picked a dentist that uses both chemical and autoclave sterilization of his instruments more clostly but much safer full sterile technique is also used just like that practiced in an or mask gloves and gowns worn and disposed of between patients each visit costs me dollars more than the standard and customary fee so i have to pay it out of pocket his much higher fees do not drive away patients i can not think of any good reason why someone should subject themselves to this colonic flush procedure for very little if any benefit you subject yourself to hepatitis cholera parasitic disease and even hiv just ask yourself why someone might resort to this kind of treatment could they be having gi distress could this distress be due to a pathogenic organism could i get this organism if the equipment is not cleaned properly between patients do i really want to take this risk food for thought marty b
sci.med	re hives in article apr nuscc nus sg isckbk nuscc nus sg kiong beng kee wrote my wife had hives during the first two months of her pregnancy my son months old breast fed now has the same symptoms she has been to a skin specialist but he has merely prescribed various medicines one each visit as though by trial and error anti histamines worked on both of them but looks like becoming less effective are there other solutions thanks kiong beng kee dept of information systems and computer science national university of singapore lower kent ridge road singapore food products can get through breast milk and cause allergies in the young since the son is allergic it would be best not to go to bottle feedings but rather eliminate foods from mother s diet your pediatrician should be able to give you a list of foods to avoid good luck steve
sci.med	re centi and milli pedes in article castle ed ac uk gtclark festival ed ac uk g t clark writes msnyder nmt edu rebecca snyder writes does anyone know how posionous centipedes and millipedes are if someone was bitten how soon would medical treatment be needed and what would be liable to happen to the person just for clarification i have not been bitten by one of these but my house seems to be infested and i want to know just in case rebecca millipedes i understand are vegetarian and therefore almost certainly will not bite and are not poisonous centipedes are carnivorous and although i don t have any absolute knowledge on this i would tend to think that you re in no danger from anything but a concerted assault by several million of them g not sure of this but i think some millipedes cause a toxic reaction sting so i would not assume that they are not dangerous merely on the basis of vegetarianism after all wasps are vegetarian too dnc
sci.med	re should i be angry at this doctor how about going to a doctor to get some minor surgery done doctor refuses to do it because it s to risky still charges me i go home and do it myself no problem the surgery involved digging out a pine needle that had buried itself under my tongue mike
sci.med	re help for kidney stones pk wvnvms wvnet edu wrote my girlfriend is in pain from kidney stones she says that because she has no medical insurance she cannot get them removed my question is there any way she can treat them herself or at least mitigate their effects any help is deeply appreciated advice referral to literature etc thank you dave carvell pk wvnvms wvnet edu first off i would consider the severity of the pain i had stones several years ago and there s now way i could have made it without heavy duty doses of morphine and demerol and a two week stay in the hospital i was told that there was nothing that i could take that would dissolve them if the stones are passible the best thing she could do is drink lots of water and hope that they pass but every time they move a little the pain will be excrutiating i was told by my doctor at that time that the pain was comparable to that of childbirth yes by a male doctor so i m sure some of you women will disagree i d really like to know the truth in this so maybe some of you women who have had a baby and a kidney stone could fill me in jeff silva jeffs sr hp com
sci.med	re sinus surgery septoplasty in article c zy da utdallas edu kmldorf utdallas edu george kimeldorf writes in article badboyc t z fgq netcom com badboy netcom com jay keller writes i ve already heard from a couple who said they had it and it didn t really help them i am a moderately severe asthmatic ent doc says large percentage see some relief of their asthma after sinus surgery also he said it is not unheard of that migraines go away after chronis sinusitis is relieved did your ent also tell you that this procedure may remove warts from the soles of your feet and improve your sex life you probably were trying to be facetious but just for the record partial nasal obstruction is correlated with a number of chronic disorders such as migraine hyperthyroidism asthma peptic ulcer dysmenorrhea and lack of libido riga in rev d oto neuro ophthalmol cardiac symptoms jackson rt annals of otology cvetnic mh cvetnic v rhinology cottle mh rhinology and fever inadequate oral intake and electrolyte imbalance fairbanks dnf otorhinolaryngology head and neck surgery so before you post your inane comments it would be nice if you d run a medline search on the topic say back to there s been extensive literature on this for over a years i may be in cardiology but i ve had a very good working relationship with my colleagues from ent josh backon vms huji ac il
sci.med	re earwax stephen mont cs missouri edu stephen montgomery smith writes what is the healthiest way to deal with earwax should one just leave it in your ear and not mess with it or should you clean it out every so often can cleaning it out damage your eardrums are there any tubes in your ear that might get blocked assuming that the wax is causing hearing loss congestion or popping in the ears you can try some cautious tepid water irrigation with a bulb syringe but it is awkward to do for oneself and may not work or may even make things worse my wife would disagree she does it successfully every six months or so in any case do not attempt anything with q tips my experience has been that this is initially best handled by a ear nose throat person i say initially because an ent can evaluate whether or not you might have success on your own with a little instruction i am not a physician obviously because i eschew the term otolaryngologist this posting is based only on personal experience usual disclaimer the best is the enemy of the good voltaire leon traister lmtra amdahl uts amdahl com c o amdahl corporation e arques ave m s p o box sunnyvale ca
sci.med	strain gage applications in vivo greeting i am starting work on a project where i am trying to make strain gages bond to bone in vivo or a period of several months i am currently using hydroxyapaptite back gages and i have tried m bonding the gages to the bone apart from those two application methods there doesn t seem to be much else in the literature i have only an engineering background not medical or biological i would be interest in any ideas about how to stimulte bone growth on the surface of cortical bone thanks for oyur help in advance terrance j dishongh ame bigdog engr arizona edu
sci.med	great canadian scientists about two years ago i posted the following i am planning to write a new book called great canadian scientists please forward your nominations to me shell cs sfu ca the rules are that the person must be a canadian citizen they don t have to be born in canada or even live in canada but they must have or have had if they are dead canadian citizenship while they are were great canadian scientists about people have been nominated already and they are listed at the end of this posting i m not quite sure what should constitute greatness and there may be a gray area here if you have any ideas on criteria for greatness i would be pleased to hear them in any event please nominate people even if you are not sure they are great i would like as big a list as possible please give me a name and email address phone number or mail address so that i can contact the person if you don t know any of the above then give me their last known whereabouts also please give your reason for why you think the person should be considered a great canadian scientist after i have the list i will choose about six of the most interesting ones and do in depth biographies of those individuals in the style of tracy kidder s soul of a new machine or some other dramatic technique the rest of the great canadian scientists will appear in an appedix with one paragraph biographies if you have any other ideas about this project i am interested to hear them so far i have received nominations as follows first name last name nominator famous for sid altman kuszewski john catalytic rna nobel chem frederick banting me insulin nobel u medicine davidson black stanley robert discovered peking man james r bolton warden joseph chemistry raoul bott smith steven math algebraic topology willard boyle chamm craig co inventor of ccd gerard bull stanley robert ballistics and gunnery dennis chitty galindo leal carlos first animal ecologist brian c conway tellefsen karen electrochemistry stephen cook mendelzon alberto np completeness complexity copp kuch gerald biochem aspects of physiol h s m coxeter calkin neil j regular polytopes math p n daykin palmer bill chem mosquito repellant h e duckworth anonymous mass spectroscopy admin jack edmonds snoeyink jack math operations research reginald fessenden johnsen hans wire insulation light bulb ursula franklin mckellin william physics archeol materials j a gray gray tom nuclear physics the gray e w guptill chamm craig slotted array radar donald hebb lyons michael learning hebbian synapses gerhard herzberg me optical spectr nobel james hillier me electron microscope can am crawford s holling galindo leal carlos ecology predators and prey david hubel lyons michael visual cortex nobel med kenneth iverson dare gary invented apl j d jackson austern matt elementary particle theory andre joyal pananagden prakash category theory categ logic martin kamen me carbon canadian amer irving kaplansky knighten bob algebra functional analysis george s kell kell dave hot water freezing t e kellogg palmer bill chem mosquito repellant geraldine kenney wallace siegman anthony chemistry administration brian kernaghan brader mark c programming language michael l klein marchi massimo theoretical chemistry charles j krebs galindo leal carlos ecology krebs effect k j laidler tellefsen karen chemical kinetics g c laurence palmer bill physics raymond lemieux smith earl first synthesized glucose martin levine meunier robert computer vision edward s lowry himself computer programming pere marie victorin meunier robert jardin botanique de montreal colin macleod turner steven nobel dna discovery marshall mcluhan clamen stewart social sci communications ben morrison willson david aurora borealis lawrence morley strome murray plate tektonics remote sense farley mowat abbott john northern animal rights kevin ogilvie kendrick kelly genetics cure for herpes sir william osler lyons michael medicine p j e peebles vishniac ethan most important cosmologist wilder penfield perri marie anatomical basis for memory john polanyi me chemiluminescensce nobel denis poussart meunier robert computer vision anatol rapoport lloyd jones david conflict theory game theory howard rapson sutherland russell pulp chemistry hans selye goel anil k psychology of stress william stephenson wilkins darin ww enigma code wire photo boris stoicheff siegman anthony raman spectroscopy david suzuki meister darren science communication henry taube parker wiley physical chemistry nobel richard taylor manuel john verified quark model nobel david thompson eisler michael mapped western canada endel tulving green christopher psychology of memory bill tutte royle gordon matroid theory math i uchida palmer bill down s syndrome j tuzo wilson collier john continental drift theory r h wright palmer bill chem mosquito repellant j l allen yen leone pasquale vl baseline interferometry walter zinn me breader reactor can amer the list is growing nicely it s amazing to see just how much was discovered by canadians actually there are many more who were born in canada but became americans after graduate school please note a lot of people have nominated alexander graham bell but i feel he was really a scottish american with a summer home in canada now i know this is debatable but please don t nominate him again if anyone can fill in some of the question marks on the list please drop me a line that was two years ago since then i have received a grant from science culture canada a division of supply and services canada to research the book since my old posting the book has evolved into an educational book for kids aged though this may change again it will have about two page spreads with a large graphic in the middle and text graphic boxes all around on the following subjects vital statistics and photo of the scientist personal statement from the scientist narrative of a few moments in the life of the scientist what i was doing when i was so you want to be a insert kind of scientist experiment you can do there will be an appendix with more scientists with one paragraph biographies who didn t quite make it to the double spreads the whole thing will then be published on cd rom with video and sound clips for added richness i am looking for a cd rom publisher as well the text part may also be available on the canarie electronic highway being developed in canada as well i am still looking for a publisher though penguin canada came close to being it hope to find one soon i would like to again ask for more nominations especially in the pure sciences of physics chemistry and biology also criticisms of the list are welcomed also women and french canadian scientists are needed i hope this posting will get others to nominate more great canadian scientists and to discuss what is great what is canadian and what is scientist please respond to shell sfu ca or barry shell quebec st vancouver b c v v m canada thanks to all who responded already
sci.med	re krillean photography in article c oil vuse vanderbilt edu alex vuse vanderbilt edu alexander p zijdenbos writes flame on especially the usa should be grateful after all columbus did not drop off the edge of the earth with counterflame enabled columbus was indeed a crank but not in the manner you think the fact that the world was round was well known when he set sail it was also well known that the circumference was about k miles and that you could not reach asia bo going west with current technology you would neither be able to carry enough supplies nor get a long enough stretch of good sailing weather nobody thought he would fall off the edge of the world instead they expected him to die at sea columbus thought for no good reason that the circumference was only k miles making the trip practical unfortunately for columbus and his shipmates the earth s circumference is indeed k miles fortunately for columbus and his shipmates there was a stopping place right about where asia would have been had the circumference been k miles my source is the recent pbs series on columbus flame off or end sermon alex
sci.med	med school actually i am entering vet school next year but the question is relevant for med students too memorizing large amounts has never been my strong point academically since this is a major portion of medical education anatomy histology pathology pharmacology are for the most part mass memorization i am a little concerned as i am sure most med students are can anyone suggest techniques for this type of memorization i have had reasonable success with nemonics and memory tricks like thinking up little stories to associate unrelated things but i have never applied them to large amounts of data has anyone had luck with any particular books memory systems or cheap software can you suggest any helpful organizational techniques being an older student who returned to school this year organization another one of my weak points has been a major help to my success please no griping about how all you have to do is learn the material conceptually i have no problem with that it is one of my strong points but you can t get around the fact that much of medicine is rote memorization thanks for your help
sci.med	epilepsy and video games there have been a few postings in the past on alleged pathological esp neurological conditions induced by playing video games e g nintendo apparently there have been reported several cases of photosensitive epilepsy due to the flashing of some patterns and the strong attention of the young players one poster to comp risks reported some action from the british government a quick search in a database reported the following two published references e j hart nintendo epilepsy in new england j of med tk daneshmend et al dark warrior epilepsy bmj i would appreciate if someone could post or e mail any reference to preferably published further work on the subject any pointer to other information and or to possible technical tools if any for reducing the risks are appreciated many thanks antonella d alessandro pisa italy
sci.med	re centi and milli pedes in apr vms ocom okstate edu chorley vms ocom okstate edu writes in article castle ed ac uk gtclark festival ed ac uk g t clark writes msnyder nmt edu rebecca snyder writes does anyone know how posionous centipedes and millipedes are if someone was bitten how soon would medical treatment be needed and what would be liable to happen to the person just for clarification i have not been bitten by one of these but my house seems to be infested and i want to know just in case rebecca millipedes i understand are vegetarian and therefore almost certainly will not bite and are not poisonous centipedes are carnivorous and although i don t have any absolute knowledge on this i would tend to think that you re in no danger from anything but a concerted assault by several million of them g not sure of this but i think some millipedes cause a toxic reaction sting so i would not assume that they are not dangerous merely on the basis of vegetarianism after all wasps are vegetarian too dnc as a child i can remember picking up a centipede and getting a rather painful sting but it quickly subsided much less painful compared to a bee sting centipedes have a poison claw one of the front feet to stun their prey but in my single experience it did not have a lot of bite to it a
sci.med	re pregnency without sex in article frk ym vp apxl q andrew cmu edu gabriel d underwood gabe cmu edu writes i heard a great civil war story a guy on the battlfield is shot in the groin the bullet continues on it s path and lodges in the abdomen of a female spectator lo and behold as the legend goes both parents survived married and raised the child who turned out to be a real son of a gun
sci.med	re depression i do believe that depression can have a dietary component depression can also have various chemical environmental components i noticed that i became depressed in various buildings and at home when the air conditioning was on subsequent testing revealed that i was allergic to stemphyllium a mold commonly found in air conditioners after i began taking antigens that problem disappeared bruce l
sci.med	re allergic reactions against laser printers laser printers often emit ozone which smells sort of like clorox adequate ventilation is recommended michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
sci.med	re help for kidney stones in article c ij iua srgenprp sr hp com jeffs sr hp com jeff silva writes pk wvnvms wvnet edu wrote move a little the pain will be excrutiating i was told by my doctor at that time that the pain was comparable to that of childbirth yes by a male doctor so i m sure some of you women will disagree i d really like to know the truth in this so maybe some of you women who have had a baby and a kidney stone could fill me in one more reason for men to learn the lamaze breathing techniques in order to be able to get some pain reduction instantly wherever you are michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
sci.med	re help for kidney stones as i recall from my bout with kidney stones there isn t any medication that can do anything about them except relieve the pain either they pass or they have to be broken up with sound or they have to be extracted surgically when i was in the x ray tech happened to mention that she d had kidney stones and children and the childbirth hurt less demerol worked although i nearly got arrested on my way home when i barfed all over the police car parked just outside the er brian
sci.med	depression some of the md s in this newsgroup have been riding my butt pretty good maybe in some cases with good reason in this post on depression i m laying it all out i ll continue to post here because i think that i have some knowledge that could be useful once you have read this post you should know where i m coming from when i post again in the future in article netnews upenn edu lchaplyn mail sas upenn edu lida chaplynsky writes a family member of mine is suffering from a severe depression brought on by menopause as well as a mental break down she is being treated with halydol with some success but the treatments being provided through her psychiatrist are not satisfactory someone suggested contacting a nutritionist to discuss alternative treatment since she is sensitive to medication i think this is a good suggestion but don t know where to begin if anyone can suggest a philly area nutritionist or else some literature to read i d appreciate it lida i can emphasize with your situation both my wife and i suffered from bouts of depression her s was brought on by breast cancer and mine was a rebound stress reaction to her modified radical mastectomy and chemotherapy lida i used my knowledge of nutrition to get her through her six months of chemotherapy with the approval of her oncologist when severe depression set in a few months after the chemo stopped i tried to use supplements to bring her out of it i had cured her pms using supplements and i really thought that i knew enough about the role of diet in depression to take care of her depression as well it didn t work and she was put on prozac by her oncologist two winters ago three years after by wife s breast cancer i got hit with severe depression pretty typical and one reason why many marriages break up after breast cancer or another stressor i tried to take care of it for several months with supplementation didn t work my internist ended up putting me on prozac i was going to give you a list of several studies that have been done using b niacin folate and b to cure depression i m not going to do that because all you would be doing is flying blind like i was lida i do believe that depression can have a dietary component but the problem is that you need to know exactly what the problem is and then use an approach which will fix the problem for chemotherapy i knew exactly what drugs were going to be used and exactly what nutrients would be affected same thing for pms i was flying blind for both of these stressors but the literature that i used to devise a treatment program was pretty good depression is just too complicated what you really need is a nutritional scan this is not a diet analysis but an analysis of your bodies nutrient reserves for every vitamin and mineral except vitamin c you have a reserve the rda is not designed to give you enough of any nutrient to keep these reserves full it is only designed to keep them from being emptied which would cause clinical pathology stress will increase your need for many vitamins and minerals this is when your reserves become very important lida without your permission i m going to use your post as a conduit to try to explain to the readers in this group and sci med where i m coming from i have taught a course on human nutrition in one of the osteopathic medical schools for ten years now i ve written my own textbook because none was available what i teach is not a rehash of biochemistry i preach nutrient reserves yes my lectures in this course are referred to by my students as sermons here is what i cover indroduction and carbohydrates lipids proteins i proteins ii energy balance evaluation of nutritional status i a clinical perspective evaluation of nutritional status ii evaluation of nutritional a biochemical perspective status iii homework assignment using the nutritionist iv diet and fitness analysis software program weight control food fads and facts age related change in nutrient requirements food additives contaminants and cancer drug nutrient interactions mineral and water balance sodium potassium and chloride calcium magnesium and phosphorus iron zinc and copper iodine and fluoride other trace minerals vitamin a vitamin e vitamins d and k vitamin c thiamin and niacin riboflavin and pyridoxine pantothenic and folic acids biotin and b other nutrient factors enteral nutrition parenteral nutrition every three years i spend my entire summer reviewing the medical literature to find material that i can use in my nutrition textbook i last did this in the summer of i read everything that i can find and then sit down and rewrite my lecture handouts which are bound in three separate books that have and pages opposite each page of written text which i write myself i ve pulled figures tables and graphs from various copyrighted sources since this material is only being used for educational purposes i can get around the copyright laws so far i can not send this material out to newsgroup readers as i ve been asked to do i am now in the process of trying to get a grant to setup a nutrition assessment lab this is the last peice of the nutrition puzzle that i need to make my education program complete this lab will let me measure the nutrient reserve for almost all the vitamins and minerals that are known to be required in humans the mayo clinic already uses a similiar lab to design supplement programs for their cancer patients cancer treatment centers of america which is a private for profit organization with hospitals in illinois and oklahoma tulsa also operates a nutritional assessment clinical lab i also believe that the pritikin clinic in california has a similiar lab setup for physicians reading this post i would suggest that you get the new clinical nutrition textbook that has just been published feb by mosby i have been using alpers manual of nutritional therapeutics a little brown series book as a supplemental text for my course but alpers is geared more to residency training two m d s have written this new clinical nutrition textbook and it is geared more towards medical student education and it does a good job of covering the lab tests that can be run to assess a patient s nutritional status let me quote a few sentences from the preface of this new text so called nutrition specialists were in reality gastroenterologists hematologists or pediatricians who just happened to profess some knowledge of nutrition as it related to their field of practice unfortunately about two thirds of the medical schools in the united states require no formal instruction in nutrition but times and medical practice have changed more than half of the leading causes of death in this country are nutrition related this monograph should accomplish the following two objectives it should complement your medical training by emphasizing the relevance of nutrition to your medical practice and it should heighten your awareness of nutrition as a medical speciality that is vitally important for both disease prevention and the treatment of diseases of essentially every organ system roland l weinsier md drph lida my advise to you is that you tell your family members to try to find a physician who has an understanding of the role that vitamins and minerals yes even magnesium may play a role in depression play in depression and who could get a nutritional profile run menopause is often a time when women suffer depression there are a lot of hormonal changes that are occuring but they are not the same ones that occur during pms a nutritionist may also be able to help not too long ago a poster mentioned that his nutritionist had diagnosed a selenium deficiency based on a red cell glutathionine peroxidase test the specific test for the selenium reserve most clinical labs will not run this test and i advised him to try to make sure that the lab that did the test was certified there are also a lot of hair and nail analysis labs setup to do trace mineral analysis but these labs are not regulated checks of these labs using certified standards and also those doing water lead analysis showed some pretty shoddy testing was going on if you or anyone else finds someone who will run these speciality nutrition tests make sure that they are using a lab that has been certified under clia the clinical laboratory improvement act a diet analysis may be helpful since many nutrient reserves have been shown to correlate fairly well with the dietary intake as monitored by food logging and software analysis nutritionist iv and other software programs but there are still about half of the nutrients required by humans that do not show a very good correlation between apparent dietary intake and reserve status until we have more nutritional assessment clinical labs in operation in the u s and physicians who have been trained how to use the nutritional profile that these labs provide to devise a treatment approach that uses diet changes and supplementation anti depressants will probably continue to be the best approach to depression martin banschbach ph d professor of biochemistry and chairman department of biochemistry and microbiology osu college of osteopathic medicine without discourse there is no remembering without remembering there is no learning without learning there is only ignorance
sci.med	re earwax hi stephen ear wax is a healthy way to help prevent ear infections both by preventing a barrier and also with some antibiotic properties too much can block the external auditory canal the hole in the outside of the ear and cause some hearing problems it is very simple and safe to remove excess wax on your own or at your physician s office you can take a syringe no needles and fill it with warm water cold can cause fainting and otc hydrogen peroxide then point the ear towards the ceiling about degrees up and insert the tip of the syringe helps to have someone else do this and firmly expell the solution depending on the size of the syringe and the tenacity of the wax this could take several rinses if you place a bowl under the ear to catch the water it will be much drier you can buy a syringe with a special tip at your local pharmacy or just use whatever you may have if wax is old it will be harder and darker you can try adding a few drops of olive oil into the ear during a shower to soften up the wax do this for a couple days then try syringing again it is also safe to point your ear up at the shower head and allow the water to rinse it out good luck heather
sci.med	re kidney stones in article apr rose com ron roth rose com ron roth writes banschbach vms ocom okstate edu marty banschbach writes b medicine has not and probalby never will be practiced this way there b has always been the use of conventional wisdom a very good example is b kidney stones conventional wisdom because clinical trails have not been b done to come up with an effective prevention was that restricitng the b intake of calcium and oxalates was the best way to prevent kidney stones b from forming clinical trials focused on drugs or ultrasonic blasts to b breakdown the stone once it formed through the recent new england j of b medicine article we now know that conventional wisdom was wrong b increasing calcium intake is better at preventing stone formation than is b restricting calcium intake b marty b marty i personally wouldn t be so quick and take that nejm article on kidney stones as gospel first of all i would want to know who sponsored that study i have seen too many nutrition bulletins over the years from local newspapers magazines to tv guide with disclaimers on the bottom informing us that this great health news was brought to us compliments of the dairy industries there are of course numerous other interest groups now that thrive financially on the media hype created from the supposedly enormous benefits of increasing one s calcium intake secondly were all the kidney stones of the test subjects involved in that project analysed for their chemical composition the study didn t say that it only claimed that most kidney stones are large ly calcium perhaps it won t be long before another study comes up with the exact opposite findings a curious phenomenon with researchers is that they are oftentimes just plain wrong it wouldn t be the first time sodium magnesium calcium phosphorus ratios are in my opinion still the most reliable indicators for the cause treatment and prevention of kidney stones i for one will continue to recommend the most logical changes in one s diet or through supplementation to counteract or prevent kidney stones of either type and they definitely won t include an increase in calcium if the stones have been identified as being of the calcium type and people s chemical analysis confirms that they would benefit from a phosphorus raising approach instead ron roth ron you are absolutely right not all kidney stones have calcium and not all calcium stones are calcium oxalate but the vast majority are calcium oxalate calcium is just one piece of the puzzle i cited that nejm article as a way of pointing out to some of the physicians in this group that conventional wisdom is used in medicine always has been and probably always will be if one uses conventional wisdom there is a chance that you will be wrong as long as the error is not going to cause a lot of damage what s the big deal why call a physician who gives anti fungals to sinus suffers or gi distress patients a quack on the kidney stone problem i d want a mineral profile run in a clinical chemistry lab balance is much more important than the dietary intake of calcium i know that you use an electrical conductance technique to measure mineral balance in the body i know that you don t think that the serum levels for minerals are very useful i agree if i can get a good nutritional assessment lab setup where i can actually measure the tissue reserve for minerals i d like to do a collaborative study with you to see how your technique compares with mine marty b
sci.med	re opinions on allergy hay fever shots i have just started taking allergy shots a month ago and is still wondering what i am getting into a friend of mine told me that the body change every years whatever that means and i don t need those antibody building allergy shots at all does that make sense to anyone btw can someone summarize what is in the consumer report february article
sci.med	cure for dry skin hi all my skin is very dry in general but the most serious part is located from knees down the skin there looks like segmented the segmentation actually happens beneath the skin i would like to know if there is any cure for this at the supermarkets or pharmacies there are quite a lot of stuffs for dry skins but what to chose thanks in advance for all advices and hints reply by email preferred alex
sci.med	re centi and milli pedes in article apr nmt edu msnyder nmt edu rebecca snyder writes does anyone know how posionous centipedes and millipedes are the millipede s around here austin have no sting some of the centipedes do the question rebecca snyder asks is much like asking how venomous are snakes one either wants to ask which snake or point to some reference on the many different species of snake similarly there are many different species of millipede and centipede these are different families millipedes have two pairs of legs per body segment while centipedes have but one pair sorry if this information is not useful russell
sci.med	sumatripton spelling i recently heard of some testing of a new migraine drug called sumatripton i have no idea of the actual spelling that supposedly utilizes a chemical that trips neuro transmitters my mother has regular migraines and nothing seems to help does anyone know anything about this new drug is it in a testing phaze or anywhere near approval does it seem to be working any information would help please feel free to e mail rather than take up bandwidth if you prefer thanks in advance rox roxannen cruzio santa cruz ca us virtue is a relative term
sci.med	re urine analysis in article c t m fxx athena cs uga edu mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes in article rm bn kps transfer stratus com randy faneuf vos stratus com writes someone please help me i am searching to find out as many others may an absolute cure to removing all detectable traces of marijuana from a persons body is there a chemical or natural substance that can be ingested or added to urine to make it undetectable in urine analysis if so where can these substances be found you could do what i do never go near the stuff there s always the old switcheroo my brother works at a dialysis clinic they were interviewing candidates for a technician job mainly electronics tech and a urine screen was part of the interview the bathroom was across the hall from a lab one candidate managed to switch his urine sample with one he grabbed from the lab no one was in it at the time most inner city dialysis patients have quite a few medical problems so it was immediately obvious what had happened my brother fleetingly considered telling the candidate i m sorry but you are very ill and need medical attention immediately they offered him another well monitored chance and he declined
sci.med	re krillean photography alex vuse vanderbilt edu alexander p zijdenbos writes flame on reading through the posts about kirlian whatever spelling photography i couldn t help but being slightly disgusted by the narrow minded i know it all i don t believe what i can t see or measure attitude of many people out there i am neither a real believer nor a disbeliever when it comes to so called paranormal stuff but as far as i m concerned it is just as likely as the existence of for instance a god which seems to be quite accepted in our societies without any scientific basis accepted by whom people who think digital watches are a real good idea that channels of television is x better than channels of television i am convinced that it is a serious mistake to close your mind to something anything simply because it doesn t fit your current frame of reference history shows that many great people great scientists were people who kept an open mind and were ridiculed by sceptics you re right keep an open mind to the following taco flavored donuts cannibalism good way to get that extra protein in the diet belief in yawanga armadillo god of parking meters mark vandewettering truest servant of yawanga oh yawanga he who never will become a road pizza all of my quarters and dimes nay even nickels will be spent to buy time to park in your eternal parking lot
sci.med	re help for kidney stones in article c ij iua srgenprp sr hp com jeffs sr hp com jeff silva writes pk wvnvms wvnet edu wrote move a little the pain will be excrutiating i was told by my doctor at that time that the pain was comparable to that of childbirth yes by a male doctor so i m sure some of you women will disagree i d really like to know the truth in this so maybe some of you women who have had a baby and a kidney stone could fill me in i ve had neither a baby nor a kidney stone but according to my aunt who has had plenty of both a kidney stone is worse barbara
sci.med	re chromium as dietary suppliment for weight loss in article apr newsgate sps mot com rhca melton sps mot com henry melton writes my wife has requested that i poll the sages of usenet to see what is known about the use of chromium in weight control diet suppliments she has seen multiple products advertising it and would like any kind real information my first impulse was yuck a metal but i have zero data on it what do you know henry melton i ll tell you all that i know about chromium but before i do i want to get a few things off my chest i just got blasted in e mail for my kidney stone posts kidney stones are primarily caused by diet as is heart disease and cancer when i give dietary advise it is not intended to encourage people reading this news group or sci med nutrition where i do most of my posting to avoid seeing a doctor nothing can be further from the truth kidney stones can be caused by tumors and this possibility has to be ruled out but once it is diet is a good way of preventing a reoccurance same thing with heart disease and cancer if you suspect that you may have a problem with one of these diseases don t use what i m going to tell you or what you read in some book to avoid going to a doctor you have to go hopefully you will find a doctor who knows enough about nutrition to help you change your risk factors for both diseases as part of a treatment program but the odds are that you will not and that s why i m here when my wife detected a lump in here breast i didn t say don t worry my vitamin e will take care of it any breast lump has to be worked up by a physician plan and simple if it s begnin which most are fine then maybe a diet change and supplementation will prevent further breast lumps from occuring but let me tell you right now if you have tried diet and supplementation and another lump returns get your butt into the doctor s office as fast as your little feet can carry you better yet have a mammography done on a regular basis my wife kept putting her s off both myself and her gynocologist told her she needed to have one done her gynocologist even scheduled one but she didn t show up too busy running the operating room for the biggest hospital in tulsa one more thing i am not an orthomolecular nutritionist this group uses high dose vitamins and minerals to treat all kinds of disease there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that vitamins and minerals can and do have drug actions in the body but you talk about flying blind man this is really blind treatment no drug could ever be used as these vitamins and minerals are being used i m not saying that some of this stuff couldn t be right on the money it may well be but my approach to nutrition is a lot like that of weinsier and morgan the two m d s who wrote the new clinical nutrition textbook my push is the nutrient reserves and the lab tests needed to measure these reserves and then supplementation or diet changes to get these reserves built up to where they should be to let you handle stress that s where i m coming from folks blast away if you want i m not going to change put me in your killfile if you want i really don t care i m averaging e mail messages a day from people who think that i ve got something important to say but i m also getting hit by a few with an axe to grind that s life chromium is one of the trace elements it has a very limited but very important role in the body it is used to form glucose tolerance factor gtf gtf is made up of chromium nicinamide niacin glycine cysteine and glutamic only the chromium and the niacin are needed from the diet to form gtf some foods already have gtf liver brewers or nutritional yeast and black pepper when chromium is in gtf a pretty good absorption is seen about but when it is simply present as a mineral or mineral chelate chromium picolinate it s absorption is much lower to lowest for all the minerals i ve been posting in misc fitness and chromium has come up there several times as a fat burner chromium is among the least toxic of the minerals so you could really load yourself up and not really do any harm i wouldn t do it though the adequate and safe range for chromium is to ug per day the average american is getting about ug per day from his her diet chromium levels decrease with age and many believe that adult onset diabetes is primarily a chromium deficiency i can cite you several studies that have been done with glucose tolerance in type ii diabetes but i m not going to because for each positive one there also seems to be a negative one as well i m convinced that the problem is bioavailability when yeast gtf is used good results are obtained but when chromium itself is used the results are usually negative in addition to type ii diabetes chromiuum has been examined in cardiovascular disease and glucoma again with mixed results as far as cardiovascular disease is concerned since a high blood glucose level can lead to cardiovascular disease this possible link with chromium isn t too surprising glucoma is a little more interesting muscle eye focusing activity is primarily an insulin responsive glucose driven metabolic function if this eye focusing activity is impaired by a lack of glucose due to a poor insulin response intraocular pressure is believed to be elevated in a fairly large study of pts with glaucoma the one consistent finding was a low rbc chromium j am coll nutr but this one preliminary study should not prompt people to go out and start popping chromium supplements for one thing just about every older person is going to have a low rbc chromium unless they have been taking chromium suppleemnts yeast since glucoma is often found in older people it s not too surprising that chromium was low in the rbc s if chromium supplementation could reverse glucoma that would prompt some attention i suspect that there will be a clinical trail to check out this possible chromium link to glucoma you could find out what your body chromium pool size was by either the rbc chromium test or hair analysis most clinical labs are not going to run a rbc chromium there are plenty of labs that will do a hair and nail analysis for you but i wouldn t use them there is just too much funny business going on in these unregulated labs right now here s weinsier and morgan advise on chromium they do not consider chromium to be one of those minerals for which a reliable clinical test is available they don t like the hair and nail analysis labs either and they also recognize the rbc chromium is primarily a research test that is not routinely available in most clinical chemistry labs this has to change and as more labs run a rbc chromiuum it will what then do they suggest make a diagnosis of chromium deficiency based on a documented clinical response to chromium run a glucose tolerance test before and after chromium supplementation once you make the diagnosis put the patient on ug of crcl orally each day or grams of yeast per day what s my advise don t take chromium supplements to try to loose weight they just do not work that way if you want to take them and then exercise that would be great do include yeast as part of your diet most americans are not getting enough chromium from their diet if you do have a poor glucose tolerance ask your doctor to check your chromium status when he or she says what in the world are you talking about just say please get a copy of weinsier and morgan s new clinical nutrition textbook and do what they say to do with patients who present with a poor glucose tolerance if you can t do that i ll find a doctor who can thank you very much marty b
sci.med	re help for kidney stones michael covington mcovingt aisun ai uga edu wrote in article c ij iua srgenprp sr hp com jeffs sr hp com jeff silva writes pk wvnvms wvnet edu wrote move a little the pain will be excrutiating i was told by my doctor at that time that the pain was comparable to that of childbirth yes by a male doctor so i m sure some of you women will disagree i d really like to know the truth in this so maybe some of you women who have had a baby and a kidney stone could fill me in one more reason for men to learn the lamaze breathing techniques in order to be able to get some pain reduction instantly wherever you are michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi it would have been pretty difficult to practice my hee hee s while i was keeled over pukeing my guts out though jeff silva jeffs sr hp com
sci.med	re krillean photography before more bandwidth gets wasted on this i apologize for my flame first because i distributed the message to so many newsgroups i did not check the crosspostings of the article i followed up on second for not making my argument clear enough i reacted to the tone of many of the anti kirlian posts not to their content right or wrong i found the arguments set in arrogant and sneering words that includes jokes which i still think is unwarranted and obviously i should not have done the same alex
sci.med	re iridology any credence to it in article aa dpw com jprice dpw com janice price writes i saw a printed up flyer that stated the person was a licensed herbologist and iridologist i don t believe any state licenses herbologists or iridologists robert greenstein what the fool cannot learn he laughs at thinking green srilanka island com that by his laughter he shows superiority instead of latent idiocy m corelli
sci.med	botulinum toxin type a i am looking for statistics on the prevalence of disorders that are treatable with botulinum type a these disorders include facial dyskinesia meige syndrome hemifacial spasm apraxia of eyelid openeing aberrant regeneration of the facial nerve facial paralysis strabismus spasmodic torticollis muscle spasm occupational dystonia i e writers cramp etc spasmodic dysphonia and temporal mandibular joint disease i realize many of the disorders i listed such as muscle spasm are vaguely defined and may encompass a wide range of particular disorders my apologies the list was provided to me as is i have some numbers but not reliable any ideas on sources or even bbetter any actual figures with source listed many thanks meg meg arnold business intelligence center sri international ravenswood avenue menlo park ca phone internet meg arnold qm sri com
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in a previous article banschbach vms ocom okstate edu says least a few enlightened physicians practicing in the u s it s really too bad that most u s medical schools don t cover nutrition because if they did candida would not be viewed as a non disease by so many in the medical profession case western reserve med school teaches nutrition in its own section as well as covering it in other sections as they apply i e b deficiency in neuro as a cause of neuropathy b deficiency in hematology as a cause of megaloblastic anemia yet i sill hold the viewpoint of mainstream medicine candida can cause mucocutaneous candidiasis and in already very sick patients with damaged immune systems like aids and cancer patients systemic candida infection i think the yeast connection is a bunch of hooey what does this have to do with how well nutrition is taught anyway here is a brief primer on yeast yeast infections as they are commonly called are not truely caused by yeasts the most common organism responsible for this type of infection is candida albicans or monilia which is actually a yeast like fungus well maybe i m getting picky but i always thought that a yeast was one form that a fungus could exist in the other being the mold form many fungi can occur as either yeasts or molds depending on environment candida exibits what is known as reverse dimorphism it exists as a mold in the tissues but exists as a yeast in the environment should we maybe call it a mold infection a fungus infection maybe we should say it is caused by a mold like fungus martin banschbach ph d professor of biochemistry and chairman department of biochemistry and microbiology osu college of osteopathic medicine west th st tulsa ok you re the chairman of biochem and micro and you didn t know that a yeast is a form of a fungus shudder or maybe you did know and were oversimplifying
sci.med	re schatzki ring pvc s in article uabdpo dpo uab edu spam dom uab edu uabdpo dpo uab edu gila stephen holland writes in article apr betsy gsfc nasa gov ohandley betsy gsfc nasa gov wrote the second issue summarized he has had extra heartbeats for the past to years and once was symptomatic from them with some lightheadedness he is young ish thin and in good health recent bloodtests were all normal and do not smoke use drugs or caffeine etc i m willing to accept the extra beats as normal but don t want to ignore them if they might be some kind of warning symptom the number of pvc s seems to increase throughout the day and with exercise or something as simple as climbing some stairs also if i get up after sitting or lying down for a while i tend to get a couple of extra beats could they possibly be related to the esophagous problems both seemed to develop at about the same time i not an expert on heart problems but pvc s are common and have been overtreated in the past my personal experience and i have the same history an build you do related to the heart that is is that my pvc s come and go with some months causing anxiety taking on more fluids seems to help and they seem worse in the summer remember that a slow heart rate will allow more pvc s to be apparent so perhaps it is an indication of a healthy cardiac system but ask an expert about that last point especially i too have had premature ventricular heartbeat starting in these are not by the way extra heartbeats this is how they feel and this is how i described them initially to the doctor but they re actually premature heartbeats i would sometimes experience a lapse after one of these that went on for a suffocatingly long period of time making me wonder if my heart were ever going to beat again i had them persistently for eighteen years then i went on a low fat diet and they just stopped i haven t had a single episode of pvh for almost two years i know correlation does not imply causation this is just fwiw barbara
sci.med	natural alternatives to estrogen need diet for diverticular disease and ideas for gastrointestinal distress
sci.med	sciatica ideas for the relief of sciatica please respond to my e mail
sci.med	re pregnency without sex i heard a great civil war story a guy on the battlfield is shot in the groin the bullet continues on it s path and lodges in the abdomen of a female spectator lo and behold as the legend goes both parents survived married and raised the child death taxes math jazz wean hall bathroom graffiti gabriel underwood gabe cmu edu
sci.med	re placebo effects to turpin cs utexas edu russell turpin rt o those administering the treatment do not know which subjects rt receive a placebo or the test treatment it seems to me that many drugs have such severe side effects that it might not be possible to keep the doctors from knowing who is getting the true drug this is especially true of the drugs used for mental illnesses my cat is very smart he has me well trained origin one world los angeles b
sci.med	re should i be angry at this doctor brandon caldonia nlm nih gov brandon brylawski writes mryan stsci edu writes am i justified in being pissed off at this doctor last saturday evening my year old son cut his finger badly with a knife i took him to a local urgent and general care clinic at pm the clinic was open till pm the receptionist went to the back and told the other good stuff about the drs idiocy ok much as i hate to do it here i am posting an even better dr idiot story i was in my th hour of labor had been pushing for hours and was exhausted my ob and i decided to go for a csec the ob called in the anesthisiologist sp and asked him to help prep me for surgery after watching me go through a couple contractions the anes or anus as i like to refer to him said well i am off duty now still staring between my legs at that the ob asked to go call whomever it was who was on duty and ask him her how long it would take and if it was going to take more than a few minutes to please stay even though he was off duty the anes went out supposedly to call the on call anes in a couple of minutes the nurse came running in to tell the ob that the anes had left without even trying to get ahold of the on call it was the only time during my labor that i swore the on call anes took minutes to get there come to find out the anes had only just gone off duty about minutes before and technically was supposed to stay in the hospital until the next on call got there good thing for all of us especially him that it was not a critical emergency but boy would i love to knock that fellow s ouchie places just to let him be in pain a few little minutes i have run into dr idiots mechanic idiots clerk idiots and etc idiots in my time but this fellow i would like to have words with deantha
sci.med	re kidney stones if the student has a kidney infection she ought to be on antibiotics kidney infections left untreated can cause permanent damage to the kidneys i was hospitalized with a kidney infection a while ago and i was very sick in article apr ux cts eiu edu cfaks ux cts eiu edu alice sanders writes also she is told that thre are surgery patients ahead of her and that they cannot do surgery until august or so it is now april she is supposed to rest a lot and drink fluids but she has to go to classes she wonders why they have given her no medicine she plans to
sci.med	re need info on circumcision medical cons and pros aezpete deja vu aiss uiuc edu writes can t imagine what it s like to have a penis much less a foreskin i guess if american medicine did an artistic job of circumcising every male then the visual result would be somewhat more natural in appearance the penile cancer thing has been completely debunked she must be going to school on a south pacific island tell her to check the journal or urology for circumcision articles i remember at least on an old jewish man cut at birth who developed penile cancer i mean if the cancer risk was that great the europe who have been circumcising like crazy too teaching a boy how to keep his cockhead clean is the issue a little proper hygiene goes a long way americans are just too hung up on the penis to consider cleaning it that s just way too much like mastubation so you have surgical intervention that is basically unnecessary peter schlumpf university of illinois at urbana champaign first off use some decent terms if ya don t mind this is sci med not alt sex secondly how absolutely bogus to assume that american s are just too hung up on the penis blah blah i think most american s don t care about anything so comlicated as that they just think it looks nicer ask a few of them and see what response you get others still opt for circumcision due to religious traditions and beliefs some think it is easier to clean still others do it because daddy was dont be so naive as to think american s are afraid of sexuality my son is not circumcised and i can vouch for the argument that it is more difficult to keep clean than a circumcised kids not so much that the foreskin is difficult to pull back it isn t but because my son doesn t want to wait long enough for a thorough check for smega or misplaced feces so many times it just gets a once over dab it worries me that he might get an infection due to his lack of cooperation i am sure however that he will be able to handle cleaning under the foreskin himself once he is old enough until there is always the decision at each diaper change is this the time to clean or can we wait till next time
sci.med	question phosphorylase kinase deficiency if anyone has any information on this deficiency i would very greatly appreciate a response here or preferably by email all i know at this point is a deficiency can cause myoglobin to be released and in times of stress and high ambient temperature could cause renal failure x
sci.med	re krillean photography in article c g j efi com alanm efi com alan morgan writes in article c oil vuse vanderbilt edu alex vuse vanderbilt edu alexander p zijdenbos writes okay name one single effect that kirlian photography gives that can t be explained by corona discharge dozens of very funny postings to sci image processing of which this may not be one ata
sci.med	re chromium for weight loss there is no data to show chromium is effective in promoting weight loss the few studies that have been done using chromium have been very flawed and inher ently biased the investigators were making money from marketing it theoretically it really doesnt make sense either the claim is that chromium will increase muscle mass and decrease fat of course chromium is also used t o cure diabetes high blood pressure and increase muscle mass in athletes just as well as anabolic steroids sounds like snake oil for the s on the other hand it really cant hurt you anywhere but your wallet and place bo effects of anything can be pretty dramatic paul paul sovcik pharm d u of illinois college of pharmacy email u uicvm uic edu
sci.med	re earwax in fauk m d kq amdahl uts amdahl com dated apr gmt lmtra uts amdahl com leon traister writes stephen mont cs missouri edu stephen montgomery smith writes what is the healthiest way to deal with earwax should one just leave it in your ear and not mess with it or should you clean it out every so often can cleaning it out damage your eardrums are there any tubes in your ear that might get blocked assuming that the wax is causing hearing loss congestion or popping in the ears you can try some cautious tepid water irrigation with a bulb syringe but it is awkward to do for oneself and may not work or may even make things worse my wife would disagree she does it successfully every six months or so in any case do not attempt anything with q tips i ll agree with your wife while i was a student i had doctors remove rather surprising amounts of wax from my ears by flushing them out a couple times usually because they were examining my ears for some other reason and said something like gee you ve got a lot of wax in there in my case removal of these large wax buildups did noticeably improve my hearing and i ve since gotten in the same habit as your wife of flushing them out with warm water from a little rubber bulb every few months you can buy little bulbs together with ear drops for this express purpose from the drug store i don t notice that the drops accomplish much of anything one question i do have a doctor who flushed out my ears once also advocated a drop of rubbing alcohol in them afterwards to flush out any remaining trapped water said he told swimmers to do this after swimming too it works but it stings like the devil so i ve always been content to let any water in my ears from swimming or flushing them out figure out how to get out by itself if shaking my head a few times won t do the trick any comments
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in article rp p d usenet ins cwru edu esd po cwru edu elisabeth s davidson writes in a previous article banschbach vms ocom okstate edu says least a few enlightened physicians practicing in the u s it s really too bad that most u s medical schools don t cover nutrition because if they did candida would not be viewed as a non disease by so many in the medical profession case western reserve med school teaches nutrition in its own section as well as covering it in other sections as they apply i e b deficiency in neuro as a cause of neuropathy b deficiency in hematology as a cause of megaloblastic anemia yet i sill hold the viewpoint of mainstream medicine candida can cause mucocutaneous candidiasis and in already very sick patients with damaged immune systems like aids and cancer patients systemic candida infection i think the yeast connection is a bunch of hooey what does this have to do with how well nutrition is taught anyway elisabeth let s set the record straight for the nth time i have not read the yeast connection so anything that i say is not due to brainwashing by this hated book it s okay i guess to hate the book by why hate me elisabeth i m going to quote from zinsser s microbiology th edition a book that you should be familiar with and not hate candida species colonize the mucosal surfaces of all humans during birth or shortly thereafter the risk of endogenous infection is clearly ever present indeed candidiasis occurs worldwide and is the most common systemic mycosis neutrophils play the main role in preventing a systemic infection candidiasis so you would have to have a low neutrophil count or sick neutrophils to see a systemic infection poor diet and persistent parasitic infestation set many third world residents up for candidiasis your assessment of candidiasis in the u s is correct and i do not dispute it what i posted was a discussion of candida blooms without systemic infection these blooms would be responsible for local sites of irritation gi tract mouth vagina and sinus cavity knocking down the bacterial competition for candida was proposed as a possible trigger for candida blooms let me quote from zinsser s again however some factors such as the use of a broad spectrum antibacterial antibiotic may predispose to both mucosal and systemic infections i was addressing mucosal infections i like the term blooms better the nutrition course that i teach covers this effect of antibiotic treatment as well as the cure i guess that your nutrition course does not too bad here is a brief primer on yeast yeast infections as they are commonly called are not truely caused by yeasts the most common organism responsible for this type of infection is candida albicans or monilia which is actually a yeast like fungus well maybe i m getting picky but i always thought that a yeast was one form that a fungus could exist in the other being the mold form many fungi can occur as either yeasts or molds depending on environment candida exibits what is known as reverse dimorphism it exists as a mold in the tissues but exists as a yeast in the environment should we maybe call it a mold infection a fungus infection maybe we should say it is caused by a mold like fungus martin banschbach ph d professor of biochemistry and chairman department of biochemistry and microbiology osu college of osteopathic medicine west th st tulsa ok you re the chairman of biochem and micro and you didn t know that a yeast is a form of a fungus shudder or maybe you did know and were oversimplifying my my elisabeth do i detect a little of steve dyer in you if you noticed my faculty rank i m a biochemist not a microbiologist candida is classifed as a fungus according to zinsser s but as you point out it displays dimorphism it is capable of producing yeast cells pseudohyphae and true hyphae elisabeth you are probably a microbiologist and that makes a lot of sense to you to a biochemist it s a lot of greek so i called it a yeast like fungus go ahead and crucify me you know elisabeth i still haven t been able to figure out why such a small little organism like candida can bring out so much hostility in people in sci med and i must admitt that i got sucked into the mud slinging too i keep hoping that if people will just take the time to think about what i ve said that it will make sense i m not asking anyone here to buy into the yeast connection book because i don t know what s in that book plain and simple and to be honest with you i m beginning to wish that it was never written marty b
sci.med	re need info on circumci to menon boulder colorado edu ravi or deantha menon ro first off use some decent terms if ya don t mind this is sci med not ro alt sex would you like to rephrase that atp unix a g day mate throw another cat on the barbie
sci.med	atrial natriuretic factor anp is secreted by the atria in response to increases in fluid volume and acts to facilitate sodium and water excretion from the kidneys can someone tell me the molecular mechanism by which this is done please email your response thanks po g mo thon
sci.med	re sumatripton spelling in article cruzio santa cruz ca us roxannen cruzio santa cruz ca us wrote i recently heard of some testing of a new migraine drug called sumatripton i have no idea of the actual spelling that supposedly utilizes a chemical that trips neuro transmitters my mother has regular migraines and nothing seems to help does anyone know anything about this new drug is it in a testing phaze or anywhere near approval does it seem to be working my girlfriend just started taking this drug for her migranes it really helped her get through the rebound withdrawl when she got off analgesics she doesn t have a mail account but asked me to forward this glaxo is the distributor imitrex is the drug s brand name it works she can call her pharmacy for more info the miracle drug has been used for years in europe and for some time in canada trials in the u s were completed and the drug hit the us market at the end of march some pharmacies don t stock it yet presently it needs to be injected subcutaneously although testing is starting with a nasal spray form it mimics serotonin its molecular structure that fits onto pain receptors looks identical to serotonin on a model i saw opinions are mine or others but definately not mda s lauger ssdgwy mdc com mcdonnell douglas aerospace huntington beach california usa
sci.med	biological alchemy biological alchemy another form of cold fusion alternative heavy element creation in universe a very simple experiment can demonstrate prove the fact of biological transmutations reactions like mg o ca si c ca k h ca n co etc as described in the book biological transmutations by louis kervran edition is best and in chapter of the book the secret life of plants by peter tompkins and christopher bird obtain a good sample of plant seeds all of the same kind some kinds might work better that others divide the sample into two groups of equal weight and number sprout one group in distilled water on filter paper for three or four weeks separately incinerate both groups weigh the residue from each group the residue of the sprouted group will usually weigh at least several percent more than the other group analyze quantitatively the residue of each group for mineral content some of the mineral atoms of the sprouted group have been transmuted into heavier mineral elements by fusing with atoms of oxygen hydrogen carbon nitrogen etc biological transmutations occur routinely even in our own bodies ingesting a source of organic silicon silicon with carbon such as horsetail extract or radishes can speed healing of broken bones via the reaction si c ca much faster than by merely ingesting the calcium directly some mineral deposits in the ground are formed by micro organisms fusing together atoms of silicon carbon nitrogen oxygen hydrogen etc the two reactions si c ca by micro organisms cause stone sickness in statues building bricks etc the reaction n co catalysed by very hot iron creates a carbon monoxide poison hazard for welder operators and people near woodstoves even properly sealed ones some bacteria can even neutralize radioactivity all of these things and more happen in spite of the currently accepted laws of physics including the law which says that atomic fusion requires extremely high temperatures and pressures biological transmutations and their applications in chemistry physics biology ecology medicine nutrition agrigulture geology st edition by c louis kervran active member of new york academy of science pages illustrated swan house publishing co p o box binghamton ny the secret life of plants by peter tompkins and christopher bird pages harper row new york chapters and are about radionics entire book is fascinating for more information answers to your questions etc please consult my cited sources the two books un altered reproduction and dissemination of this important information is encouraged robert e mcelwaine b s physics and astronomy uw ec
sci.med	re sumatripton spelling it just received fda approval a few months ago i have a prescription which i haven t had to use yet i believe the company glaxol is developing an oral form at this stage one must inject the drug into one s muscle the doctor said that within minutes the migraine is gone for good
sci.med	re cure for dry skin i cured mine with bag balm which i bought at the local farm supply store it is relatively cheap and works in a few days the product was developed to treat sore udders
sci.med	re vasectomy health effects on women in article apr nic csu net eskagerb nermal santarosa edu eric skagerberg writes does anyone know of any studies done on the long term health effects of a man s vasectomy on his female partner i ve seen plenty of study results about vasectomy s effects on men s health but what about women for example might the wife of a vasectomized man become more at risk for say cervical cancer adverse effects from sperm antibodies changes in the vagina s ph yeast or bacterial infections outside of study results how about informed speculation i ve heard of no studies but speculation why on earth would there be any effect on women s health that s about the most absurd idea i ve heard since ted kaldis s claim that no more than people would march on washington ok one point greatly reduced chance of pregnancy but that s it josh
sci.med	what s a bone scan my mother has been advised to have a bone scan performed what is this procedure for and is it painful she s been having leg and back pain which her gp said was sciatica her oncologist listened to her symptoms and said that it didn t sound like sciatica and she should get a bone scan cindy w
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in article banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes i m not asking anyone here to buy into the yeast connection book because i don t know what s in that book plain and simple and to be honest with you i m beginning to wish that it was never written i agree with this consensus that it should not have been written the way it was my doctor who claims to have introduced dr crook to the possibility of candida overbloom causing diffuse symptoms way back in i have no reason to doubt him on this does not like the book because it makes too many unfounded claims and is horribly written from a scientific viewpoint on the other hand my doctor has always kept an open mind on the subject and does believe in aspects of the yeast connection but i believe there is some truth to the book hopefully the right clinical studies can be done to separate the fact from the fiction in the meantime i d still encourage people who have incurable chronic sinus problems especially if they overused antibiotics to find a doctor to administer a systemic type anti fungal such as itraconazole along with liver panels before during and after treatment just to play it safe it is an empirical approach for sure but when all else fails and your ent says sorry you ll just have to live with it it is time to step out and try an empirical approach backed up with significant anecdotal evidence dr ivker supported by plausible theories outlined by marty at this stage you have little to lose particularly if you use itraconazole and have the proper monitoring the health risk has been shown through extensive clinical studies both in europe and the u s to be very minimal with relatively healthy i e non aids patients i m glad i did this since i saw remarkable results after only one week on sporanox itraconazole of course your mileage may vary a lot everyone is different so it may not work for you talk to your doctor jon noring charter member infj club if you re dying to know what infj means be brave e mail me i ll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip fred s gourmet chocolate carlton place phone chips world s best livermore ca v mail who are you read alt psychology personality that s where the action is
sci.med	re what s a bone scan in article cindy berkp uadv uci edu cindy berkp uadv uci edu cindy windham writes my mother has been advised to have a bone scan performed what is this procedure for and is it painful she s been having leg and back pain which her gp said was sciatica her oncologist listened to her symptoms and said that it didn t sound like sciatica and she should get a bone scan do i assume correctly from the above aricle that your mother has a historyy of cancer i was just wondeing since you mentioned thhat she has an oncologist a bone scan is a nuclear scan thperson receivving the scan is gven a dose of a radioactive tracer and an imaging device is used to track the distribution of the tracer wwithin the body the tracer is usually given intravenously iv this means that the physician or his assistant will insert a needle into a vein and inject medicine into the vein after a few minutes has passed for the tracer to circulate through the body the person is scanned with an imaging device to detect high concentrations of the tracer the radiologist or doctor is looking for areas that take up more of the radioactive tracer or less of it as far as pain the only pain comes from the needle stick that is required to start the iv line what the doctor is probably looking for are changes in the bones that may have resulted from cancer this is also why i was wondering if your mother has had cancer since cancer can spread from one site and wind up in the skeletal system i hope i have answered some of your questions feel free to e mail me if you have more questions related to the bone scan or anything else related to your mother s care i m a newly graduated nurse and i enjoy sharing information with other people to help them understand things that they did not know about before my thoughts are with you both elisa b hanson picl fsphy physics fsu edu the chief function of the body is to carry the head around albert einstein
sci.med	antihistamine for sleep aid for a very long time i ve had a problem with feeling really awful when i try to get up in the morning my sleep latency at night is also pretty long ranging from min to an hour i get about hours of bedtime maybe of actual sleep a night and more on the weekends i will spend two or three hours laying in bed after this if i can because i feel so tired when i wake up even more tired than i was when i went to bed which is usually too tired to work anyway i recently had a really bad flu so i called a friend to get me some cough syrup with both an expectorant and a nasal decongestant but he got vicks formula m which has everything but an expectorant so i used that anyway and the three nights i used it i fell asleep rapidly and felt that i got really good quality sleep that is i actually felt refreshed the next morning so i am now trying to look into both in the literature and experimentally the use of antihistamines as sleep aids since i am presuming that it was the antihistamine that caused the effect the antihistamine in vicks formula is chloriphenamine maleate so i bought some generic tablets of that and tried one last night and didn t notice any improvement i might try one with a little alcohol about beer to see if it is a synergism effect also library research seems to show that benadryl is the antihistamine with the strongest sedative effect of what is availible otc so i might also buy a generic form of that and try that the pdr seems to suggest that mg is a good dosage level to try for other medical information i have allergies but rarely have an allergic reaction living in new mexico i also have chronically dry eyes which get horrible if i try to use most underarm deoderants i did guess that my problem might be caused by hypoglycemia so i made some changes in my diet consistent with that and it didn t help so i went back to a normal diet pretty diverse also taking vitamin supplements anyway i am looking for advice for the use of antihistamines as sleep aids and if there are any dangers of such use seems safe to me since they are used chronically for allergies by millions i don t want to try bzs because bz addiction seems to be a serious threat and from what i hear bz sleep quality is not good whereas antihistamine sleep quality seems to be better for me i have tried some dietary tryptophan loading stuff and that also seems to lower sleep quality i seem to wake up around or so and be in some kind of mental haze until or also i would be interested in any other advice for helping my problem although i ve already tried many of the non pharmacological solutions
sci.med	bates eye exercises have i mailed this to the correct newsgroup s are there other newsgroup s which cover the following topic has anyone with myopia short sightedness ever done the bates eye exercises if so could you please e mail me the following information age and state of sight before exercises were commenced type frequency and length of time spent on exercises performed improvements noticed immediately after performing exercises length of period before any improved sight deteriorates thanks in advance for any replies i ll summarise and post results if there s enough interest jonathan goldstein jonathan goldstein goldstej nms otc com au
sci.med	re pregnency without sex in article blue cis pitt edu kxgst pitt edu kenneth gilbert writes in article stephen mont stephen mont cs missouri edu stephen montgomery smith writes when i was a school boy my biology teacher told us of an incident in which a couple were very passionate without actually having sexual intercourse somehow the girl became pregnent as sperm cells made their way to her through the clothes via persperation was my biology teacher misinforming us or do such incidents actually occur sounds to me like someone was pulling your leg there is only one way for pregnancy to occur intercourse these days however there is also artificial insemination and implantation techniques but we re speaking of natural acts here it is possible for pregnancy to occur if semen is deposited just outside of the vagina i e coitus interruptus but that s about at far as you can get through clothes no way better go talk to your biology teacher kenneth gilbert university of pittsburgh well now doc i sure would not want to bet my life on those little critters not being able to get thru one layer of sweat soaked cotton on their way to do their programmed task infrequent yes unlikely yes but impossible i learned a long time ago never to say never in medicine g len howard md facog
sci.med	dental fillings question i have been hearing bad thing about amalgam dental fillings some say the lead mercury leeches into your system and this is bad and i have recently heard that there is some suspicion that the mercury is a breeding ground for bacteria that will be resistant to antibiotics my dentist wants to use an amalgam filling for me in a place where i have two cavaties in one tooth and wants to use one filling to cover both he says that composite filling don t hold up well when they are large so i would like to know if there are any other choices besides amalgam and composite and should i really even be worried about amalgam i heard that some scandanavian country does not even use them any more is this true any information you can give me will be greatly appreciated thanks dave childs
sci.med	re antihistamine for sleep aid i m interested in this from the other angle what antihistamine can i take at bedtime for relief of allergies with the assurance that its sedative effect will have completely worn off by the next morning but preferably with the anti allergy effect lasting longer i m thinking mainly of otc products which has the least duration of sedative action benadryl chlor trimeton or what note that i m asking about duration not intensity michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
sci.med	isolation amplifiers for eeg ecg cheap i have several isolation amplifier boards that are the ideal interface for eeg and ecg isolation is essential for safety when connecting line powered equipment to electrodes on the body these boards incorporate the burr brown isolation module that currently sells for plus other op amps to produce an overall voltage gain of they are like new and guaranteed good postpaid schematic included please email me for more data ken carver
sci.med	help purification of neutrophils from mice hello i need a technique for separation of polymorphonuclear neutrophils pmn from the peripheral blood of mice because of the low pmn lymphocyte ratio approx it s not just as easy as the corresponding technique used with human blood yours per arne melander ps my e mail address is per arne melander histocel umu se ds
sci.med	re sumatripton spelling reply to roxannen cruzio santa cruz ca u i recently heard of some testing of a new migraine drug called sumatripton i have no idea of the actual spelling that supposedly utilizes a chemical that trips neuro transmitters my mother has regular migraines and nothing seems to help does anyone know anything about this new drug is it in a testing phaze or anywhere near approval does it seem to be working i just got back from the american academy of neurology annual meeting where the consensus was that sumatriptan imitrex has no advantages over dhe nasal spray which is much less expensive has fewer side effects is as effective and works more quickly minutes vs besides who wants to give themselves a shot sumatriptan when a nasal spray works dhe nasal spray is not widely available yet it has to be mail ordered from one of a few pharmacies in the country but most neurologists now know about it and know how to order it david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell
sci.med	re thermogenics in article cup portal com mmm cup portal com mark robert thorson writes first off if i m not mistaken only hibernating animals have brown fat not humans human infants do have bown fat deposits while adult humans are believed not to have brown fat also while brown fat may play an important role in rousing hibernators it is definitely not limited to hibernating animals it is a common energy source for nonshivering thermogenesis edwin barkdoll barkdoll lepomis psych upenn edu eb world std com
sci.med	re cure for dry skin in article rmn c v morrow stanford edu mou nova stanford edu alex mou writes hi all my skin is very dry in general but the most serious part is located from knees down the skin there looks like segmented the segmentation actually happens beneath the skin i would like to know if there is any cure for this at the supermarkets or pharmacies there are quite a lot of stuffs for dry skins but what to chose thanks in advance for all advices and hints reply by email preferred alex as a matter of fact i just saw a dermatologist the other day and while i was there i asked him about dry skin i d been spending a small fortune on various creams lotions and other dry skin treatments he said all i needed was a large jar of vaseline soak in a lukewarm tub of water for minutes only minutes then massage in the vaseline to trap the moisture in that will help i haven t tried it yet but you can bet i will the hard part will be finding the time to rub in the vaseline properly if it s not done right you remain greasy and stick to your clothes try it it s got to be cheaper then spending for oz of natural lotion jane
sci.med	re earwax in article stephen mont stephen mont cs missouri edu stephen montgomery smith writes what is the healthiest way to deal with earwax should one just leave it in your ear and not mess with it or should you clean it out every so often can cleaning it out damage your eardrums are there any tubes in your ear that might get blocked stephen the best thing to do is leave it it will work its own way out to the surface anything you stick up there to try and clean it is just going to push the wax up against your eardrum and pack it on there solid thus impairing your hearing sean
sci.med	re biological alchemy mcelwre cnsvax uwec edu writes biological alchemy another form of cold fusion gee i d forgotten about this nut un altered reproduction and dissemination of this important information is encouraged robert e mcelwaine b s physics and astronomy uw ec and we know can prove what b s stands for in this case
sci.med	re earwax bobm ingres com bob mcqueer writes one question i do have a doctor who flushed out my ears once also advocated a drop of rubbing alcohol in them afterwards to flush out any remaining trapped water said he told swimmers to do this after swimming too it works but it stings like the devil so i ve always been content to let any water in my ears from swimming or flushing them out figure out how to get out by itself if shaking my head a few times won t do the trick any comments when i have trouble it s usually because of water trapped by some remaining wax i don t see why you can t just let it evaporate it should do this eventually j nets levin bbn com earn more sessions by sleeving pots n mnf roxanne kowalski
sci.med	re krillean photography in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu wvhorn magnus acs ohio state edu william vanhorne writes newsgroups sci energy sci image processing sci anthropology alt sci physics new theories sci skeptic sci med alt alien visitors path unidus rz uni duesseldorf de rrz uni koeln de gmd de newsserver jvnc net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu wvhorn from wvhorn magnus acs ohio state edu william vanhorne subject re krillean photography message id apr magnus acs ohio state edu sender news magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization the ohio state university references apr ultb isc rit edu c mvg boi usenet ucs indiana edu c oil vuse vanderbilt edu date tue apr gmt lines xref unidus rz uni duesseldorf de sci energy sci image processing sci anthropology alt sci physics new theories sci skeptic sci med alt alien visitors in article c oil vuse vanderbilt edu alex vuse vanderbilt edu alexander p zijdenbos writes reading through the posts about kirlian whatever spelling photography i couldn t help but being slightly disgusted by the narrow minded i know it all i don t believe what i can t see or measure attitude of many people out there i am neither a real believer nor a disbeliever when it comes to so called paranormal stuff but as far as i m concerned it is just as likely as the existence of for instance a god which seems to be quite accepted in our societies without any scientific basis i am convinced that it is a serious mistake to close your mind to something anything simply because it doesn t fit your current frame of reference history shows that many great people great scientists were people who kept an open mind and were ridiculed by sceptics especially the usa should be grateful after all columbus did not drop off the edge of the earth it is one thing to be open minded about phenomona that have not be demonstrated to be false and quite another to believe in something like krilian photography where all the claimed effects have be demonstrated to be artifacts there is no longer any reason to adopt a wait and see attitude about krilian photography it has been experimentally shown to be nothing but simple coronal discharge the auras shown by missing leaf parts came from moisture left by the original whole leaf for example that s what science is son bill vanhorne
sci.med	cold sore location i ve had cold sores in the past but they have always been in the corner of my mouth recently i ve had what appears to be a cold sore but on my lower lip in the middle above the chin can cold sores appear anywhere around the mouth or body is there a medical term for cold sore ralph yozzo yozzo watson ibm com from the beautiful and historic new york state mid hudson valley
sci.med	thyroidal deficiency hi my wife has aquired some thyroidal sp deficiency over the past year that gives symptoms such as needing much sleep coldness and proneness to gaining weight she has been to a doctor and taken the ordinary tests and her values were regarded as low the doctor and my wife are not very interested in starting medication as this deactivates the gland giving life long dependency to the drug hormone the last couple of monthes she has been seeing a hoemoepath sp and been given some drops to re activate either her thyroidal gland and or the message center in the brain sorry about the approximate language but i haven t got many clues to what the english terms are but the brain area is called the hypofyse in norwegian my questions are has anyone had heard of success in using this approach her values have been slowly but steadily sinking any comment on the probability of improvement although the doctor has told her to eat normally my wife has dieted vigorously to keep her weight as she feels that is part of keeping an edge over the illness condition may this affect the treatment development i can get the exact figures for her tests for anyone interested and i will greatly value any information opinion experience on this topic i don t intend this post to be either a flaming of the established medical profession or a praise for alternatives i am just relaying events as they have happened sincerely erik a wolff
sci.med	investigating phenylanine resinfo research and information is currently seeking contact in the united kingdom with researchers of phenylanine or is this amino acid uninspiring resinfo is not a regular subscriber to sci med due to the excessive load of data and regrettably our limited ability to monitor it would therefore be appreciated if replies could be sent direct to resinfo resinfo demon co uk using the ref mr t a t
sci.med	insensitive technicians a friend was recently admitted to north carolina memorial hospital because of suspected meningitis serious business they wanted to do a lumbar puncture for which a ct scan is a prerequisite i arrived in her hospital room about an hour after she had returned from the ct she was in tears evidently the technicians in the ct lab had been very unpleasant to her to begin with they put her on the apparatus that moves you into the machine itself and just pushed a button to slide her straight into the machine without any explanation imagine this you worried you may have a deadly disease and next thing you know you re being put into this big scary machine without a word of explanation about what is going to happen to you i believe this is inexcusable she waved her hand as if to say what are you doing to me and they responded with annoyance and anger next they inserted or tried to insert an iv catheter apparently she has a lot of trouble with these and complained of the pain the technician just stopped and fixed her with a glare without any words of explanation is there anything i can do about these pigs i realize that these technicians do this sort of job day in and day out and that some patients can be very irritating and uncooperative but this is simply no excuse their purpose for existing is to help sick people and there is no excuse for this sort of behavior fortunately my friend is fine but i imagine a large proportion of the people who get ct scans are not fine at all they have cancer and that sort of thing they don t need this kind of shit also since i named the hospital involved i should also point out that neither she nor i have any complaints about the competence or compassion of any of the other personnel at ncmh thanks for listening john eyles jge cs unc edu
sci.med	re krillean photography thomas trusk ttrusk its mcw edu wrote in article c g j efi com alanm efi com alan morgan writes in article c oil vuse vanderbilt edu alex vuse vanderbilt edu alexander p zijdenbos writes i am neither a real believer nor a disbeliever when it comes to so called paranormal stuff but as far as i m concerned it is just as likely as the existence of for instance a god which seems to be quite accepted in our societies without any scientific basis oooooh bad example i m an atheist this is not flame or abuse nor do i want to start another thread this is after all supposed to be about image processing but to say you re an atheist is to suggest you have proof there is no god that means that there cannot be any atheists since there is no way that you can prove that there is no god atheists are people who believe that there is no god most not only believe but also are damn sure that there isn t a god like me the cursor aka nick humphries u nmh csc liv ac uk at your service what s the use of computers they ll never play why pay money to see chess draw art or make music jean genet bad films stay home intelligence isn t to make no mistakes but how and see bad tv for to make them look good bertolt brecht free sam goldwyn
sci.med	re robert s biological alchemy robert i m so glad that you posted your biological alchemy discussion i ve been compared to the famous robert mcelwaine by some readers of sci med i didn t know how to respond since i had not seen one of your posts just like i haven t read the yeast connection let me just start by stating that the authors of the cold fusion papers of recent years are now in scientific exile i believe that one has actually left the country scientific fraud is rare i m still not sure that if a review of the research notes of the cold fusion scientists actually proved fraud or just very shoddy experimentation your sources do not seem to be research articles they are more like lay texts designed to pique human interest in a subject area just like the food combining and life extension texts robert i try to keep an open mind but some things i just can t buy one is taking sod orally to prevent oxidative damage in the body your experiment if conducted by readers of this news group would prove that you are right more ash after seed sprouting than before unless you use a muffle furnance and obtain a very high temperature above degrees i believe you will get organic residue in the ash even the residue in commercial incinerators contains organic residue i remember doing this kind of experiment in my organic chemistry couurse in college but i couldn t find a temperature for mineral ash formation so i m really guessing at degrees f it may actually be much higher the point is that no one in their home could ever get a high enough temperature to produce only a mineral ash they also could not measure the minerals so they could only weigh the ash and find out that you appear to be correct chemical reactions abound in our body in our atmosphere in our water and in our soil are these fusion reactions yes many of them do involve fusing oxygen nitrogen and sulfur to both organics and inorganics do we really have the transformation of silicone to calcium if carbon is fused with silicon not in my book robert silicon is the most abundant mineral on our planet i ve seen speculation that man could have evolved to be a silicon based rather than a carbon based life form i like reading science fiction as many people do but i know enough about biochemistry and nutrition to be able in most cases to separate the fiction from the fact silicon may be one of the trace elements that turns out to be essential in humans we have several grams of the stuff in our body what s it doing there only the lord knows right now but i will tell you what i do know about silicon and why as you state it helps bone healing and it is not because silicon is transformed into calcium almost all of the silicon in the human body is found in the connective tissue collagen and elastin there have been studies published which show that the very high silicon content in elastin may be an important protective factor against atherosclerosis the higher the silicon content in elastin the more resistant the elastin is to a an age related loss of elasticity which may play a role in the increase in blood pressure that is often seen as part of the ageing process in humans for bone fracture healing the first step is a collagen matrix into which calcium and phosphate are pumped by osteoblasts a high level of silicon in the diet seems to speed up this matrix formation this first step in the bone healing process seems to be the hardest for some people to get going electriacl currents have been used in an attempt to get the matrix forming cells oriented in the right direction so that the matrix can be formed in the gap or gaps between the ends of the broken bone a vitamin c deficiency by slowing collagen formation as well as causing the prodcution of defective collagen does slow down both bone and wound healing zinc is also another big player in bone and wound healing and so is silicon in an undetermined role that most likely involes matrix formation and not transformation of silicon to calcium for you to take this bone healing observation and use it as proof that silicon is transformed into calcium is an interesting little trick but robert i have the same problem myself when i read the lay press and yes even some scientific papers is the explanation reasonable without a very good science knowledge base you and most readers of this news group are flying blind you have to take it on faith because you don t know any better if the explanation seems to make sense to me based on my knowledge base i m inclined to consider it this usually means trying to find other sources that come to the same conclusion if the idea like a candida bloom seems to make sense to me i tend to pursue it as long as any advice that i m going to give isn t going to really mess somebody up if this makes us kindred souls robert then i guess i ll have to live with that label for the physicians who have decided to read my response to robert s interesting post i hope that you saw the segment on the pediatric neurosurgeon last night on u s tv i can t remember the network or his name like many nights i was on my computer and my wife was watching tv in our den where i have my computer setup this neurosurgeon takes kids with brain tumors that everyone else has given up on and he uses unconventional treatments his own words he says that he has a success rate the one case that i heard him discussing would normally use radiation conventional treatment he was going to go in and cut you guys complain about the cost of the anti fungals what do you think the cost difference between radiation treatment and surgery is guys i m going to ask you guys one more time why blast a physician who takes the chronic sinus sufferer like jon and the chronic gi sufferer like elaine and tries to help them using unconventional treatments treatments which do not result in death like those that the neurosurgeon uses is it because candida blooms are not life threatening while brain tumors are how about quality of life guys may the candida demon never cross your sinus cavity or gut if it does you may feel differently about the issue marty b
sci.med	re antihistamine for sleep aid in article apr nmt edu houle nmt edu paul houle writes anyway i am looking for advice for the use of antihistamines as sleep aids and if there are any dangers of such use seems safe to me since they are used chronically for allergies by millions i don t want to try bzs because bz addiction seems to be a serious threat and from what i hear bz sleep quality is not good whereas antihistamine sleep quality seems to be better for me i have tried some dietary tryptophan loading stuff and that also seems to lower sleep quality i seem to wake up around or so and be in some kind of mental haze until or also i would be interested in any other advice for helping my problem although i ve already tried many of the non pharmacological solutions antihistamines have been the active ingredient of otc sleep aids for decades go to any drugstore and look at the packages of such sleep aids as sominex nytol etc the active ingredient is diphenhydramine the same antihistamine that s in benadryl steven litvintchouk mitre corporation burlington road bedford ma fone arpa sdl mitre org uucp linus sdl
sci.med	re annual inguinal hernia repair in article jpc avdms msfc nasa gov jpc avdms msfc nasa gov j porter clark wrote synopsis young man with inguianl hernia on one side repaired now has new hernia on other side what gives he asks and he continues of course my wife thinks it s from sitting for long periods of time at the computer reading news there is the possibility that there is some degree of constipation causing chronic straining which has caused the bowel movements the classic problems that are supposed to be looked for in someone with a hernia are constipation chronic cough colon cancer and you re not too young for that and sitting for long periods of time at the computer reading news good luck with your surgery steve holland well that post was not that accurate people with early life hernias are felt to have a congenital sack that promotes the formation of hernias the hernias of later life may be more associated with chronic straining however the risk of damage to the intestine without an operation is high enough that it ought to be repaired the risk of cancer is probably no higher than the general population but since you are near it would be sensible to have some sort of cancer screening such as a flexible sigmoidoscopy sorry for the misleading info steve holland
sci.med	re allergic reactions against laser printers in article apr informatik tu muenchen de rdd uts ipp garching mpg de reinhard drube writes does anyone know about allergic reactions caused by the developer toner of laser printers what chemical stuff is involved mainly carbon dust with iron in a plastic binder that is melted on to the paper same stuff as dry paper photocopiers allergies haven t heard of any but anything s possible with allergies kay klier biology dept uni
sci.med	physical therapy students i am interested in finding other physical therapy students on the net if you are one or you know anyone could you get into contact with me via email my address is gecko camelot bradley edu thankyou anastasia
sci.med	re thyroidal deficiency in article apr cc ic ac uk ewolff ps ic ac uk erik the viking writes hi my wife has aquired some thyroidal sp deficiency over the past year that gives symptoms such as needing much sleep coldness and proneness to gaining weight she has been to a doctor and taken the ordinary tests and her values were regarded as low the doctor and my wife are not very interested in starting medication as this deactivates the gland giving life long dependency to the drug hormone my questions are has anyone had heard of success in using this approach her values have been slowly but steadily sinking any comment on the probability of improvement although the doctor has told her to eat normally my wife has dieted vigorously to keep her weight as she feels that is part of keeping an edge over the illness condition may this affect the treatment development there are several different types of thyroid diseases which would cause a hypothyroid condition reduction in the output of the thyroid mainly thyroxin except for ones caused by infections the treatment is generally thyroxin pills hypothyroid conditions caused by infections usually disappear when the infection does this doesn t sound like the case with your wife thyroxin orally does shut down the thyroid through a feedback loop involving the pituitary i believe the pituitary thinks that the correct amount of thyroxin is being produced so it doesn t have to tell the thyroid to produce more this process is reversable i have hashimoto s thyroiditis an autoimmune condition and was on thyroxin for approx mo when my endocrinologist suggested i not take the pills for wks when i was retested for thyroxin levels they were normal i still get tested every mo because the condition might reappear the pills are safe and have very few side affects those mostly at beginning of treatment having a baby might be a problem and would at least require closer monitoring of hormone levels thyroxin controls energy production which explains sleepiness coldness and weight gain there is also water retention possibly around heart changes in vision and coarser hair and skin among other things i am not a doctor so i m sure i mistated something but the important thing is that thyroid problems are usually easily corrected and if they aren t corrected can cause problems in the rest of the body get a second opinion from a good endocrinologist and have him her explain things in detail to you and your wife eileen bauer
sci.med	vitamin a and infection i ve sent gordon r my posts on protein vitamin c and vitamin a prior to posting on internet as a professional courtesy somehow i ve managed to delete my vitamin a post from my text file gordon r had promised to send it back to me but he s pretty mad at me right now so i ll just retype it since digging through all my references is very time consuming took me all day for that pms post i m not going to cite any references gordon r has them i m going to include some of the material from weinsier and morgan s new nutrition textbook which was not in my original material to point out that what i m going to say has some support in the medical community diet has been know to affect the immune system of man for a very very long time protein has always had the biggest role in infection and i ve already covered the role of protein in protecting you against infection now i m going to hit what i consider to be the most important nutrient in the u s as far as infection is concerned vitamin a when vitamin a was originally discovered it was commonly referred to as the anti infection vitamin many people linus pauling being one have decided to take this title away from vitamin a and give it to vitamin c which i ve already covered big mistake in my opinion vitamin a is also getting a reputation as an anti cancer vitamin with good reason the nci currently has numerous clinical trials in progress to see if vitamin a can not only prevent cancer but cure it as well it s role in both cancer and infection is almost identical but not quite vitamin a comes in two completely different forms retinol and beta carotene retinol is the animal form and it s toxic beta carotene is the plant form and it s completely nontoxic both retinol and beta carotene display good absorption in the human gut if bile is present the liver stores all of your retinol and doles it out for other tissues to use by synthesizing retinol binding protein rbp a normal human adult liver should have iu to iu of retinol stored we are born with iu in our liver u s autopsy has shown that about of americans die with the same or less amount of vitamin a as they were born with if you don t believe that nutritional reserves like that of retinol in the liver are important then this low vitamin a reserve is not going to affect you but if you believe like i do that the nutrient reserves are important then there is a problem with vitamin a in the u s the u s rda for vitamin a in an adult male is re or iu of vitamin a for adult feamles its re or iu of vitamin a diet surveys show that most americans are getting this amount of vitamin a either retinol or beta carotene from their diet but the nrc national research council was going to release a new rda table in that had the rda for both vitamin a and vitamin c raised c to mg per day and a to iu per day for adult males that report and it s recommendations was killed why concern over the increasing supplementation was the main reason rdas are set to prevent clinical disease not to keep nutrient reserves full many scientist in the u s feel that the time has come to move away from the prevention of clinical pathology concept and move towards the promotion of optimum health concept especially since we have some very good data now that show that nutrient reserves are extremely important during periods of stress the nutritonal concervatives won that battle and a new group of scientist were collected to come out with the rda list which lowered the rda for several nutrients and moved the dietary guidelines back to where they were when we first started in the s get enough to prevent clinical pathology but not enough to fill the reserves we know from autopsy that only about of americans have a liver with a normal vitamin a reserve iu to iu i preach nutrient reserves to my students and tell them to measure them in their patients but for vitamin a only a liver biopsy or autopsy data will tell you how much somebody has stored we can tell very easily if someone has overfilled his or her liver with vitamin a by measuring the serium retinol level levels above ug dl are highly suggestive that you have filled your liver with vitamin a and it s time to stop taking retinol the normal range of serum retinol will be ug dl hypervitaminosis a is diagnosed with a serum retinol level of ug dl or higher interpretation of diagnostic test wallach m d a little brown series book this level of vitamin a in blood means that medical attention is necessary due to vitamin a toxicity weinsier and morgan take a much more conservative approach to vitamin a toxicity than does wallach as you will see later in this post between ug dl and ug dl you should have plenty of warning that it s time to eliminate the retinol from your diet headache redness of the skin hair loss joint pain i tell all my students that will use vitamin a in their practice that they had better monitor the serum retinol level and stop when there are clear signs that the liver is full you will never really know if the patient needs the vitamin a because you can not measure the pool in liver but you will always know when it s time to stop just like in those vitamin a for pms studies beta carotene can be taken to fill up your liver with retinol and you will never have to worry about toxicity because the conversion of beta carotene to retinol that occurs in both your gut and your liver will slow down stops in the liver and slows down in the gut when your liver is full of retinol but taking beta carotene as the source of retinol takes a very long time to fill the liver up i ve seen estimates of years if you are in the that only has as much as you were born with in your liver iu one other problem with beta carotene if you have a zinc deficit you will not convert as much beta carotene to retinol in the gut or the liver because the enxzyme that does this conversion requires zinc in addition the release of retinol from the liver is a zinc dependent process so a zinc deficit will cause a vitamin a deficit even if your liver has plenty of vitamin a now what does vitamin a do in cancer and infection protection the body uses vitamin a retinol for many different things vision the first to be nailed down and where you see overt clinical pathology uses the aldehyde retinal and alcohol retinol form of vitamin a reproduction uses the retinol form and some retinal infection and cancer protection uses retinoic acid how do you convert retinol which your white blood cells and the mucosal cells get from blood to retinoic acid you use enzymes one of which requires vitamin c this is why pauling has tried to pull the title of anti infection vitamin away from vitamin a vitamin c does play a role in infection interferon production for example but it s biggest role is the conversion of retinol to retinoic acid if you increase your intake of vitamin c you will increase your formation of retinoic acid but retinoic acid can not be converted back to retinol as retinal can and once it s formed it s used and then lost to the body this is why the nrc group wanted to increase both vitamin c and vitamin a rda s most people taking large amounts of vitamin c really think that they are helping themselves if they don t have much vitamin a in their liver and they are not also increasing their intake of vitamin a they actually do themselves more harm than good retinoic acid functions in white blood cells to promote antibody formation in the mucus membrane it is the main factor in promoting good mucus production and a good epithelial cell barrier to prevent infectious agents from entering the blood system the mucus membrane is referred to as the first line defense against infection for cancer retinoic acid has been shown to act as a cell brake it counteracts the effect of cell promoters which stimulate cells to divide cancer has two distinct steps dna alteration and cell promotion for cells that normally divide all the time promoters are not that important but for lung and breast tissue which does not normally divide promoters are real important in the malignant process this is the major reason why the nci has so many different clinical trials in progress using retinol and or beta carotene chronic infection irritation of the mucus membranes is a signal that vitamin a may not be adequate i tell my students that any patient who walks into their office with a complaint of chronic infection has to be worked up for vitamin a along with the other factors that medicine already has on it s list of causes for chronic infection i drive this home in my course at the osteopathic college in tulsa when i teach at the allopathic medical school in tulsa ou s branch campus and when i give cme lectures dark adaptation is the best clinical test for vitamin a status since night vision is impacted when liver reverves drop to iu of retinol the serum level of retinol can also be used but it does not drop until liver reserves drop below to iu asking a patient if they have trouble seeing at night is a good initial screen if cataracts are ruled out in one study done on u s spanish americans where serum retinol levels were measured of the sample population had a serum retinol level below ug dl as more studies are done on serum retinol levels in population groups of the u s that have had a history of high infection rates we will probably see a much stonger correlation between infection incidence rates and low serum retinol levels what do weinsier and morgan have to say about vitamin a here are excerpts from their book vitamin a functions in vision in the forrm of retinol it is necessay for growth and differentation of epithelial tissue and is required for reproduction embryonic development and bone growth protein calorie malnutrition and zinc deficiency may impair the absorption transport and metabolism of vitamin a retinaldehyde is converted to retinoic acid which has biological activity in growth and in cell diferentiation but not in reproduction or vision the most common procedure to evaluate vitamin a status is to measure the retinol level in plasma or serum the normal range for vitamin a content for a child is to ug dl lower values are indicators of deficiency or depleted body stores serum levels greater than ug dl are indicative of toxic levels of vitamin a dark adaptation tests and electroretinogram measurements are also useful but difficult to perform on young children rapidly proliferating tissues are sensitive to vitamin a deficiency and may revert to an undifferentiated state the bronchorespiratory tract skin genitourinary system gastrointestinal tract and sweat glands are adversely affected a daily intake of more than mg about iu of retinol is not advised and chronic use of amounts over mg iu can result in a dry and itching skin desquamation erythematous dermatitis hair loss joint pain chapped lips hyperostois bony depositis headaches anorexia edema and fatigue they recommend mg of retinol via im injection in children for vitamin a deficiency but do not discuss treatment for adults their toxic serum retinol level is very conservative i recommend that my students try iu in adults that are having problems with chronic infection they have to rule out a zinc deficit first by getting an rbc zinc run or if their clinical lab can t run it i tell them to do what weinsier and morgan suggest give them the zinc along with the vitamin a at iu per day toxicity should not be a problem and you will not have to worry about pulling the patient into the office on a regular basis to run a serum retinol both elaine and jon found doctors who used a much higher dose of vitamin a recall that the pms papers were using iu to iu of vitamin a i don t suggest that my students use these high doses if you wanted to fill the liver up fast as part of a clinical trial and were monitoring the serum retinol level then you would be okay but my knowledge of the vitamin a literature suggests to me that iu for patients with a demonstrated vitamin a deficit dark adapatation test or serum retinol will provide a good and steady improvement as long as zinc and vitamin c status are good without having to worry about toxicity if they want to get more agressive fine if they follow my advise to check the serum retinol but vitamin a retinol should never be given in high dose to women who could become pregnant since vitamin a shows teratogenicity towards the human fetus the dose needed to show this effect on the developing fetus is iu of retinol per day beta carotene will never have this effect on the human fetus could just taking beta carotene instead of retinol supplements help yes but the effect will take a long time to develop my advise is to use retinol to fill the liver up and then switch to beta carotene to keep it full vitamin a is probably one nutrient that is better off left to prescription by doctors but when we have the m d s in this newsgroup jumping all over me and other doctors that propose the use of vitamin a supplements for treating patients with chronic sinus and gi distress i think that the most prudent option is to keep vitamin a in the otc market but require manufactors to provide package inserts to educate the general public about the dangers of vitamin a supplementation marty b
sci.med	re feverfew for migraines brenda bowden brenda bookhouse eng sun com wrote does anyone know about these studies or have experience with feverfew i keep an accurate log of my migraine attack frequency feverfew didn t seem to do anything for me however eliminating caffeine seems to pre vent the onset of migraine in my case in other words no caffeine no migraines don montgomery donrm sr hp com
sci.med	need values for aorta we need following data for human aorta tear and shear stress for aorta a plot of the aortic cross sectional area stroke volume at the aortic root approximate distribution of blood through the major arterial branches of the aorta flow velocity of blood in aorta we have various values for flow velocity if you have any data remember to give us the references too include in our report stud jakob hilmer fax hus gr a roskilde university denmark postbox dk roskilde
sci.med	seeking info on retinal detachment i am quite near sighted i ve recently received laser treatment for both eyes to seal holes in the retinas to help prevent retinal detachment in my left eye a small detachment had begun already and apparently the laser was used to weld this back in place as well my right eye seems fine in my left eye i was seeing occasional flashes of bright light prior to the treatment since the treatment two weeks these flashes are now occuring more often several each hour the opthamologist explained the flashes are caused because the vitreous body has attached to the retina and is pulling on it he says this is not treatable and he hopes it may go away on its own accord if it tugs enough i may well face retinal detachment i am seeking via sci med additional info on retinal detachments the dr did not wish to spend much time with me in explanations so i appreciate any further details anyone can provide of most interest to me if my retina does detach what should be my immediate course of action if conventional surgery is need to repair the detachment what is the procedure like and what kind of vision can i expect afterwards do the symptoms fairly frequent flashes imply that detachment maybe near at hand or is this not necessarily cause for alarm many thanks bill bill wilder computer systems manager kentville research station agriculture canada kentville nova scotia
sci.med	ethics regarding placebo homeopathic medicines i would like to know if their is any medical consensus or consensus within this group regarding the ethics of the following prescription of placebo medications when the patient did not specifically request any sort of treatment selling a placebo medication for a profit prescribing homeopathic remedies without advising a patient of their controversial nature representing homeopathic remedies as over the counter medications thanks nick ingegneri
sci.med	re antihistamine for sleep aid in article apr nmt edu houle nmt edu paul houle writes anyway i am looking for advice for the use of antihistamines as sleep aids and if there are any dangers of such use seems safe to me since they are used chronically for allergies by millions i don t want to try bzs because bz addiction seems to be a serious threat and from what i hear bz sleep quality is not good whereas antihistamine sleep quality seems to be better for me i have tried some dietary tryptophan loading stuff and that also seems to lower sleep quality i seem to wake up around or so and be in some kind of mental haze until or also i would be interested in any other advice for helping my problem although i ve already tried many of the non pharmacological solutions well i think you might want to visit a doctor who is familiar with sleep disturbances because antihistamines only help induce sleep when they re used intermittently they lose their sedative effect if they re used on a nightly basis their anticholinergic effects drying of secretions relaxing effects on smooth muscle can be problematic in some people such as those with glaucoma or prostate enlargement antihistamines like diphenhydramine benadryl or doxylamine unisom are potent sedatives which are useful occasionally chlorpheniramine chlor trimeton is said to be less sedative but mg seems to work well in some people both chlorpheniramine and doxylamine have long half lives compared to diphenhydramine and so may produce a residual hangover or drugged feeling the next morning steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima harvard rayssd linus m c spdcc dyer
sci.med	re thyroidal deficiency in article apr cc ic ac uk ewolff ps ic ac uk erik the viking writes she has been to a doctor and taken the ordinary tests and her values were regarded as low the doctor and my wife are not very interested in starting medication as this deactivates the gland giving life long dependency to the drug hormone this is ridiculous and your doctor sounds like a nut if what is reported here is what the doctor actually said if your wife s pancreas stops producing insulin and therefore becomes diabetic she ll need insulin replacement that doesn t mean she s dependent on insulin anymore than she was beforehand if her body doesn t make enough she ll have to get it elsewhere oral thyroid replacement hormone therapy is the cornerstone of treatment for hypothyroidism and it s really the only effective therapy available anyway plus it s cheap taking thyroid hormone when it isn t needed does cause your thyroid gland to reduce its own production of the hormone but that s a feature not a bug and it s irrelevant in any case in the face of hypothyroidism because her problem that her gland isn t producing enough there isn t a clinical phenomenon of thyroid insufficiency caused by a sudden discontinuation of exogenous thyroid hormone analogous to adrenal insufficiency caused by the sudden cessation of prolonged administration of corticosteroids so there should be no worry about inappropriately suppressing the thyroid gland the last couple of monthes she has been seeing a hoemoepath sp and been given some drops to re activate either her thyroidal gland and or the message center in the brain sorry about the approximate language but i haven t got many clues to what the english terms are but the brain area is called the hypofyse in norwegian homeopathy is nonsense tell her to stop wasting her money health and time and get her to a legitimate doctor who will be in a position to make a proper diagnosis and recommend the right therapy steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima harvard rayssd linus m c spdcc dyer
sci.med	re earwax in article lu definnac news bbn com levin bbn com joel b levin writes bobm ingres com bob mcqueer writes one question i do have a doctor who flushed out my ears once also advocated a drop of rubbing alcohol in them afterwards to flush out any remaining trapped water said he told swimmers to do this after swimming too it works but it stings like the devil so i ve always been content to let any water in my ears from swimming or flushing them out figure out how to get out by itself if shaking my head a few times won t do the trick any comments perhaps diluting the rubbing alcohol in some water until you feels comfortable will do the trick
sci.med	re antihistamine for sleep aid but after you have taken antihistamines for a few nights doesn t it start to have a paradoxical effect i used to take one every night for allergies and couldn t figure out why i developed bad insomnia finally figured out it was the antihistamines i would fall asleep for a few minutes but would awaken at the drop of a pin a little later and could not get back to sleep i don t have that problem since i stopped the antihistamines at bedtime alice
sci.med	lithium questions doctor wants my year old on it hi sci med folks i would like to know anything you folks can tell me regarding lithium i have a year old son that lives with my ex wife she has been having difficulty with his behavior and has had him on ritalin tofranil and now wants to try lithuim at the local doctors suggestion i would like to know whatever is important that i should know i worry about this sort of thing and would like pros cons regarding lithium therapy i have a booklet from the lithium information center based at the university of wisconsin but feel that it is pro lithium and would be interested in comments from the not necessarily pro side of the fence i am a concerned father and just wish to be well informed thanks for any information you can provide please email me directly george a perkins systems engineer sun microsystems computer corporation courtney campbell causeway suite tampa fl phone fax email george perkins east sun com
sci.med	re cure for dry skin in article apr pbs org jlecher pbs org writes as a matter of fact i just saw a dermatologist the other day and while i seeing a dermatologist sounds like a very good idea if you are worried about your dry skin don mackie his opinions
sci.med	re insensitive technicians in article rrhi inn bq ceti cs unc edu john eyles jge cs unc edu writes friend s unpleasant experience uring ct scan deleted is there anything i can do about these pigs i d suggest writing a detailed letter about the incident to the hospital administrator specify the date and time if possible the names of the technicians send a copy to the clinician under whose care your friend was admitted i say this because though your friend has no argument with the doctor i have found that administrators sometimes ignore complaints until the patient becomes litigious clinicians may not have been informed of the complaint and are very surprised to find themselves named in a suit if there is no response within a week send a follow up letter attach a photocopy of the original letter do this weekly until you do get a response cat scans are non invasive but they can be very scary the scanner can be a bad place for the claustrophobic there was an interesting study in the bmj about years ago which found that around of people who had cat scans found it so unpleasant that they would never have another this compares with who said the same about a lumbar puncture don mackie his opinions
sci.med	legality of placebos how is it that placebos are legal it would seem to me that if as a patient you purchase a drug you ve been prescribed and it s just sugar or whatever there s a few legal complications that arise if you have been diagnosed with a condition and you aren t given accepted treatment for it it seems like intentional medical malpractice a placebo should fall legally under the label of quackery why not getting what you pay for deceptive bait and switch to an extreme false advertising what if mcdonalds didn t put pure beef in their hamburgers so i m mystified are these assumptions erred if they aren t why the hell can a doctor knowingly or unknowingly prescribe a placebo thanks calzone
sci.med	vitamin a and hearing loss i heard a news report indicating research showing improved hearing in people taking vitamin a the research showed that new growth replaced damaged hairlike nerves has anyone heard about this thanks claude claude bowie voice federal express corp fax box memphis tn email claude banana fedex com
sci.med	deadly nyquil i originally posted this to alt suicide holiday but it was recommended that i try you guys instead my friend insists that ny quil can be deadly if enough is taken he suggested something like of the night time gelcaps would do someone in being a normal user of ny quil i checked the ingredients and have a very hard time believing it they are g acetaminophen mg pseudoephedrine hcl mg dextromethorphan hbr mg doxylamine succinate per softgel can someone settle our bet a package of ny quil of course what effect would of these babies have nathan inter arma silent leges worship ditka now email bitn midway uchicago edu
sci.med	re thyroidal deficiency in article sfb mvs draper com sfb mvs draper com eileen bauer writes thyroxin controls energy production which explains sleepiness coldness and weight gain there is also water retention possibly around heart changes in vision and coarser hair and skin among other things is there any relation between thyroid deficiency and depression
sci.med	re info colonics and purification in article cup portal com mark robert thorson mmm cup portal com writes colonics were a health fad of the th century which persists to this day except for certain medical conditions there is no reason to do this certainly no normal person should do this in article apr informix com robert hartman hartman informix com writes also insofar as it doesn t conform to the accepted medical presumption that it just doesn t matter what you eat and that we can think of the gi tract as a black box in which nothing ever goes wrong except for maybe cancer and ulcers the righteous will no doubt jump on that too recently i completed a week juice fast with days of water and had two colonics as part of it my motivation was primarily spiritual to de toxify from all the crap i ve been putting in my body not like thats enough to clean it all out but it did have an effect personaly i didn t find it an uncomfortable experience the colonic lost about lbs of beer belly which hasn t come back over the last month and feel great one of the things that prompted me to get the colonic was seeing my year old grandmother chair ridden from colitis from years of indulgence not everything that goes in comes out and personaly i don t mind giving my body a hand once in a while just my experience george paap i am my beliefs which almost certainly are not those of my employer
sci.med	re legality of placebos calzone athena mit edu wrote how is it that placebos are legal it would seem to me that if as a patient you purchase a drug you ve been prescribed and it s just sugar or whatever there s a few legal complications that arise if you have been diagnosed with a condition and you aren t given accepted treatment for it it seems like intentional medical malpractice a placebo is an accepted treatment at times a placebo should fall legally under the label of quackery why not why should it placebos are effective under certain circumstances that s why they re used actually i don t know know anyone who has actually gotten a sugar pill i don t know how it could be done since prescription drugs are always labeled and it s easy enough to find out what s in a pill if you have the name it s more common to prescribe a drug which is effective for something just not for what you have antibiotics for viral infections are the most common such placebo getting what you pay for deceptive bait and switch to an extreme false advertising what if mcdonalds didn t put pure beef in their hamburgers i m not sure what you mean by this what do you think you re paying for you re not entitled to a prescription drug just because you pay for a doctor s appointment jack hamilton kd ttl jfh netcom com po box sf ca usa
sci.med	re vitamin a and hearing loss in article apr banana fedex com claude banana fedex com claude bowie writes i heard a news report indicating research showing improved hearing in people taking vitamin a the research showed that new growth replaced damaged hairlike nerves has anyone heard about this claude i ve not heard or read anything that would suggest that vitamin a retinol could reverse hearing loss due to nerve damage usually caused by high sound levels but also occassionally due to severe infection the types of cells that vitamin a regulates are the general epithelial cells and these cell types are not the ones that function in the ear hearing process the hair cell nerve like epithelial cells in the ear may respond to vitamin a during cellular differentiation embryogenesis but i don t know if they are still capable of responding in adults if they are capable of responding with new hair growth this would be a very major breakthrough in hearing loss with all of the medical interest in vitamin a it would not be too surprising if a clinical study was done using vitamin a to reverse hearing loss but with only a news announcement to go on and this type of communication is notoriously bad i can t comment on your question anymore than i already have if one study has been done more will need to follow to firm up a link between vitamin a and hearing loss if there really is one marty b
sci.med	re thyroidal deficiency in article apr adobe com abruno adobe andrea bruno writes in article sfb mvs draper com sfb mvs draper com eileen bauer writes thyroxin controls energy production which explains sleepiness coldness and weight gain there is also water retention possibly around heart changes in vision and coarser hair and skin among other things is there any relation between thyroid deficiency and depression perhaps the listlessness caused by thyroid deficiency could mimic depression or feeling unable to do anything could cause one to get depressed but i know of no specific effect on the brain caused by the thyroid that would cause depression note that weight gain is usually a symptom of both simple blood tests would indicate if a thyroid condition is present i don t know if depression would cause a reduction in thyroid output but i would tend to doubt it as far as i know clinical depression is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain and that chemical imbalance has no direct effect on any other part of the body a regular everyday depression imho should not cause a chemical imbalance in the body at all the pituitary bases its secretions of thyroid stimulating hormone tsh on the level of circulating thyroxin there are two types t and t one is used as a reserve and is changed into the other active form in the liver the ratio of t t can be affected by a number of other hormones estrogen for example naturally changing activity of the body s cells would cause changes in availabilty of free thyroxin but the liver and a healthy thyroid should be able to balance things out in short order good sources for info on the thyroid are the merk manual a physician s reference book although reading it is enough to get one depressed and the encyclopedia brittanica should be available in your local library i hope this has been of some help eileen bauer
sci.med	result misc health diabetes passes voting for creation of the newsgroup misc health diabetes ended at gmt on apr at this time the total response received consisted of votes for newsgroup creation and votes against newsgroup creation under the guidelines for usenet group creation this response constitutes a passing vote there will be a delay to allow time for the net to respond to this result after which the newsgroup misc health diabetes should be created please check the vote acknowledgement list to be sure that your vote was received and properly credited any inconsistencies or errors should be reported to swkirch sun nrl navy mil by email i want to thank everyone who participated in the discussion and vote for this newsgroup proposal the following is the voting summary votes received against newsgroup creation cline usceast cs scarolina edu ernest a cline coleman twin twinsun com mike coleman ejo kaja gi alaska edu eric j olson elharo shiva njit edu elliotte rusty harold 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millstein ggurman cory berkeley edu gail gurman ggw wolves durham nc us gregory g woodbury gmalet surfer win net gary malet gonzalez suhep phy syr edu gabriela gonzalez greenlaw oasys dt navy mil leila thomas grm andrew cmu edu gretchen miller halderc cs rpi edu carol halder handelap duvm bitnet pucc princeton edu phil handel hc nyongwa cam org heddings chrisco nrl navy mil hubert heddings herbison lassie ucx lkg dec com hosch iscsvax uni edu kathleen hosch hrubin pop stat purdue edu herman rubin hudsoib auducadm duc auburn edu ingrid b hudson huff mcclb med nyu edu edward j huff huffman ingres com gary huffman huynh estd nrl navy mil minh huynh ishbeld cix compulink co uk ishbel donkin james langdell eng sun com james langdell jamie ssd intel com jamie weisbrod jamyers netcom com john a myers jc crosfield co uk jerry cullingford jcobbe garnet acns fsu edu james cobbe jesup cbmvax cbm commodore com randell jesup joannm hpcc corp hp com joann mcgowan joep dap csiro au joe petranovic john burton acenet auburn edu john e burton jr johncha comm mot com jorgensonke cc uvcc edu keith jorgenson jpsum mik uky edu joey p sum jtm ucsfvm ucsf edu john maynard julien skcla monsanto com kaminski netcom com peter kaminski kerry citr uq oz au kerry raymond kieran world std com aaron l dickey kolar spot colorado edu jennifer lynn kolar kriguer tcs com marc kriguer laurie lonexa admin rl af mil laurie j key lee hal com lee boylan lmt po cwru edu lia m treffman lunie lehigh edu lusgr chili cc lehigh edu stephen g roseman m beamish ins gu edu au marilyn beamish m rich ens gu edu au maurice h rich maas cdfsga fnal gov peter maas marilyn lonexa admin rl af mil marilyn m tucker markv hpvcivm vcd hp com mark vanderford maschler vms huji ac il michael maschler mcb net bio net michael c berch mcday ux cso uiuc edu marrianne c day mcookson flute calpoly edu melynda titipu resun com melynda reid mfc isr harvard edu mauricio f contreras mg wpi edu martha gunnarson mhollowa libserv ic sunysb edu michael holloway misha abacus concordia ca misha glouberman mjb cs brown edu manish butte moflngan vax tcd ie margaret o flanagan muir idiom berkeley ca us david muir sharnoff n d treby southampton ac uk n d treby n j c hookey durham ac uk n j c hookey nancy block eng sun com nancy block ndallen r node hub org nigel allen nlemur eecs umich edu nigel lemur nlr b nei nih gov nathan rohrer pams hpfcmp fc hp com pam sullivan papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca paul prescod paslowp cs rpi edu pam paslow phil unet umn edu phil lindberg pillinc gov on ca christopher pilling pkane cisco com peter kane pmmuggli midway ecn uoknor edu pauline muggli popelka odysseus uchicago edu glenn popelka pulkka cs washington edu aaron pulkka pwatkins med unc edu pat watkins rbnsn mosaic shearson com ken robinson rmasten magnus acs ohio state edu roger masten robyn media mit edu robyn kozierok rolf green mathematik uni stuttgart de rolf schreiber sageman cup portal com sasjcs unx sas com joan stout sca space physics uiowa edu scott allendorf scottjor delphi com scrl hplb hpl hp com scs vectis demon co uk stuart c squibb shan techops cray com sharan kalwani sharen iscnvx lmsc lockheed com sharen a rund shazam unh edu matthew t thompson shipman csab larc nasa gov floyd s shipman shoppa erin caltech edu tim shoppa sjsmith cs umd edu stephen joseph smith slillie cs bradley edu susan lillie steveo world std com steven w orr surendar ivy wpi edu surendar chandra swkirch sun nrl navy mil steven kirchoefer s fagan twu edu liz fagan taryn arizvm ccit arizona edu taryn l westergaard thomas e taylor gagme chi il us thomas e taylor tima cfsmo honeywell com timothy d aanerud tsamuel gollum relay nswc navy mil tony samuel u uicvm uic edu mary jacobs vstern gte com vanessa stern wahlgren haida van wti com james wahlgren waldref tv tv tek com greg waldref waterfal pyrsea sea pyramid com douglas waterfall weineja teomail jhuapl edu wgrant informix com william grant wingb underdale unisa edu au brian wing yeager mscf med upenn edu yozzo watson ibm com ralph e yozzo ysharma yamuna b ingr com yamuna sharma z beach utmb edu molly hamilton zulu iesd auc dk bjoern u gregersen the charter for misc health diabetes appears below charter misc health diabetes unmoderated the purpose of misc health diabetes is to provide a forum for the discussion of issues pertaining to diabetes management i e diet activities medicine schedules blood glucose control exercise medical breakthroughs etc this group addresses the issues of management of both type i insulin dependent and type ii non insulin dependent diabetes both technical discussions and general support discussions relevant to diabetes are welcome postings to misc heath diabetes are intended to be for discussion purposes only and are in no way to be construed as medical advice diabetes is a serious medical condition requiring direct supervision by a primary health care physician end of charter steve kirchoefer code kirchoefer estd nrl navy mil naval research laboratory microwave technology branch washington dc electronics sci and tech division
sci.med	re krillean photography ttrusk its mcw edu thomas trusk writes but to say you re an atheist is to suggest you have proof there is no god to be a politically correct skeptic better to go with agnostic like me as a self proclaimed atheist my position is that i believe that there is no god i don t claim to have any proof i interpret the agnostic position as having no beliefs about god s existence grant edwards yow are we there yet my rosemount inc mind is a submarine grante aquarius rosemount com
sci.med	re chromium for weight loss in article u uicvm uic edu u uicvm uic edu writes there is no data to show chromium is effective in promoting weight loss the few studies that have been done using chromium have been very flawed and inher ently biased the investigators were making money from marketing it theoretically it really doesnt make sense either the claim is that chromium will increase muscle mass and decrease fat of course chromium is also used t o cure diabetes high blood pressure and increase muscle mass in athletes just as well as anabolic steroids sounds like snake oil for the s where are your references i have been unable to find studies that state that chromium cures diabetese it can reduce the amount of insulin you have to take high blood pressure i have never heard of this claim before anabolic steroids i have also never heard of this claim before sounds like you are making things up and stretching the truth for god knows what reason did somebody piss you off at one time on the other hand it really cant hurt you anywhere but your wallet and place bo effects of anything can be pretty dramatic i agree with you that chromium picolinate by itself isn t likely to make a fat person thin but it can be the decisive component of an overall strategy for long term weight control and make an important contribution to good health it is important to exercise and also avoid fat calories chromium picolinate has shown to reduce fat and increase lean muscle i will not bore you with the statistics you wouldn t believe these anyway chromium picolinate is an exceptionally bioactive source of the essential mineral chromium chromium plays a vital role in sensitizing the body s tissues to the hormone insulin weight gain in the form of fat tends to impair sensitivity to insulin and thus in turn makes it harder to lose weight insulin directly stimulates protein synthesis and retards protein breakdown in muscles this protein sparing effect of insulin tends to decline during low calorie diets as insulin levels decline which results in loss of muscle and organ tissue by sensitizing muscle to insulin chromium picolinate helps to preserve muscle in dieters so that they burn more fat and less muscle preservation of lean body mass has an important long term positive effect on metabolic rate helping dieters keep off the fat they ve lost chromium picolinate promotes efficient metabolism by aiding the thermogenic heat producing effects of insulin insulin levels serve as a rough index of the availability of food calories so it s not at all surprising that insulin stimulates metabolism note that i did not say that chromium picolinate increases metabolism in summary you need to change your life style in order to loose weight and stay healthy a reduce dietary fat consumption to no more than of calories eating fat makes you fat b increase dietary fiber low in calories high in nutrients c get regular aerobic exercise at least times a week burn calories d take chromium picolinate daily lose fat keep muscle references kaats gr fisher ja blum k abstract american aging association st annual meeting denver october evans gw int j biosoc med res page tg ward tl southern ll j animal sci suppl abstract felig p clin physiol kimball sr jefferson ls diabetes metab rev fukugawa nk minaher kl rowe jw et al j clin invest fehlmann m freychet p biol chem pittman cs suda ak chambers jb jr ray gy metabolism danforth e jr am j clin nutr mccarty mf med hypoth bielinski r schutz y jequier e am j clin nutr young jc treadway jl balon tw garvas hp ruderman nb metabolism best regards michael vincze mav asd dseg ti com
sci.med	re deadly nyquil bitn kimbark uchicago edu writes my friend insists that ny quil can be deadly if enough is taken he suggested something like of the night time gelcaps would do someone in being a normal user of ny quil i checked the ingredients and have a very hard time believing it they are g acetaminophen mg pseudoephedrine hcl mg dextromethorphan hbr mg doxylamine succinate per softgel can someone settle our bet a package of ny quil of course what effect would of these babies have the acetaminophen is the agent of concern in overdose of this otc medication a single dose of acetaminophen of grams or greater can cause hepatotoxicity and doses of grams or more are potentially fatal from hepatic necrosis if i recall correctly the metabolism of acetaminophen at high doses involves n hydroxylation to n acetyl benzoquinoneimine which is a highly reactive intermediate which then reacts with sulfhydryl groups of proteins and glutathione when hepatic glutathione is used up this intermediate then starts attacking the hepatic proteins with resulting hepatic necrosis the insidious part of acetaminophen toxicity is the delay days between ingestion and clinical signs of liver damage this is not a nice way to die as to taking of these tablets that comes to grams of acetaminophen in a normal adult this would probably cause nausea vomiting abdominal pain and loss of appetite bob schmieg
sci.med	re earwax hbloom moose uvm edu heather writes you can try adding a few drops of olive oil into the ear during a shower to soften up the wax do this for a couple days then try syringing again it is also safe to point your ear up at the shower head and allow the water to rinse it out about six years ago my ears clogged up with wax probably as a result of to much headphone use anyway the clinic that cleaned them out used the following procedure inject olive oil into ears prevent leakage of oil with cotton come back in an hour rinse ears with warm vater forcefully injected into ear very strange sensation done they had special tools to do this and were evidently quite familiar with the problem very large steel syringe special bowl with cutout for ear to take the grime coming out without spillage good luck seconded bjorn r bjornsson brb falcon is
sci.med	re legality of placebos in article jfhc bg y d x netcom com jfh netcom com jack hamilton writes actually i don t know know anyone who has actually gotten a sugar pill it s more common to prescribe a drug which is effective for something just not for what you have antibiotics for viral infections are the most common such placebo and presumably this is a matter of degree it must be common to prescribe a drug that has some chance of giving some benefit but not a high probability of it and or not a large benefit right michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
sci.med	re burzynski s antineoplastons in article icgln asuacad bitnet icgln asuacad bitnet writes a good source of information on burzynski s method is in the cancer industry by pulitzer prize nominee ralph moss interesting what book got moss the pulitzer nomination none of the flyers for his books mention this and none of the cancer chronicle newsletters that i have mention this either also a non profit organization called people against cancer which was formed for the purpose of allowing cancer patients to access information regarding cancer therapies not endorsed by the cancer industry but which have shown highly promising results all of which are non toxic moss is people against cancer s director of communications people against cancer seems to offer pretty questionable information not exactly the place a cancer patient should be advised to turn to most maybe all of the infomation in their latest catalogue concern treatments that have been shown to be ineffective against cancer and many of the treatments are quite dangerous as well sdb sdb ssr com
sci.med	re burzynski s antineoplastons in article jschwimmer wccnet wcc wesleyan edu jschwimmer wccnet wcc wesleyan edu josh schwimmer writes any opinions on burzynski s antineoplastons or information about the current status of his research would be appreciated burzynski s work is not too promising none of his a through a antineoplastons have been shown to have antineoplastic effects against experimental cancer the nci conducted tests of a and a against leukemia in mice with the result that doses high enough to produce toxic effects in the mice were not effective in inhibiting the growth of the tumor or killing it these were in and burzynski claims that a is the active factor common to all of a and a something which he has not shown a has only been extracted from a he also hasn t shown that a through a are actually distinct substances the nci conducted a series of tests using a against a standard panel of tumors that included different cell lines from tumors in the following classes leukemia non small cell and small cell lung cancer colon cancer cancer of the central nervous system melanoma ovarian cancer and renal cancer a exhibited neither growth inhibition nor cytotoxicity at the dose levels tested it is necessary to process a since it is not soluble burzynski s theory requires soluble agents but this basically hydrolizes it to pag which he calls as pag is not an information carrying peptide something which byrzynski claims is necessary for antineoplastic activity as also derived from a is a mixture of pa and pag pa also not a peptide can be purchased at a chemical supply houses for about a gram a is chemically extremely similar to glutithamide and thalidomide both of which are habit forming and can cause peripheral neuropathy the nasty effects of thalidomide are widely known in spite of this similarity a does not appear to have been tested for it s potential to induce teratogenicity or peripheral neuropathy many of burzynski s statements about the origin of his theory early research past and present support by others for his work have been shown to be untrue sdb sdb ssr com
sci.med	re iridology any credence to it in article aa dpw com jprice dpw com janice price writes i saw a printed up flyer that stated the person was a licensed herbologist and iridologist what are your opinions how much can you tell about a person s health by looking into their eyes its bogus see the sci skeptic faq i edit it you can diagnose some things by looking at the eyes glaucoma is the classic example but there are probably others iridology maps parts of the body onto the irises of the eyes by looking at the patterns striations and occasional blobs in the irises you are supposed to be able to diagnose illnesses all over the body the two questions to ask any alternative therapist are how does it work what evidence is there the answer to question takes a little knowledge of medicine to evaluate i don t know about iridology but i ve read a book on reflexology which is a remarkably similar notion except that the organs of the body are mapped onto the soles of the feet there are supposed to be channels running down the body carrying information or energy of some sort anatomists have found no such structures always beware the words channel and energy in any spiel put out by an alternative practitioner the answer to question is rather simpler if all they have is anecdotal evidence then forget it ask for referreed papers in mainstream medical journals ignore any bull about the conspiracy of rich doctors suppressing alternative practitioners studies are done and papers are published some of them are even positive the word licensed in the flyer is an interesting one licensed by whom for what it is quite possible that the herbology is real and requires a license you can kill someone by giving them the wrong plants to eat and many plants contain very powerful drugs foxglove and willow spring to mind it is not clear whether the license extends to the iridology and i suspect that if you ask you will be told that it means licensed herbologist and iridologist btw the usual term is herbalist why use a different word paul johnson paj gec mrc co uk tel ext these ideas and others like them can be had gec marconi research is not for each from any reputable idealist responsible for my opinions
sci.med	re cats and pregnancy hello i heard that a certain disease toxoplasmosys is transmitted by cats which can harm the unborn fetus does anybody know about it is it a problem to have a cat in the same apartment see the rec pets cats faq or any doctor or vet for more information i am not any of the above but we do have a couple of cats it is transmitted through the fecal matter so a pregnant woman should avoid cleaning the cat tray and you should both wash hands before preparing or eating meals the latter is sound advice at any time of course apart from that its no great problem you certainly do not need to get rid of your cats paul paul johnson paj gec mrc co uk tel ext these ideas and others like them can be had gec marconi research is not for each from any reputable idealist responsible for my opinions
sci.med	re thyroidal deficiency abruno adobe andrea bruno writes in article sfb mvs draper com sfb mvs draper com eileen bauer writes thyroxin controls energy production which explains sleepiness coldness and weight gain there is also water retention possibly around heart changes in vision and coarser hair and skin among other things is there any relation between thyroid deficiency and depression there can be but depression is not diagnositic of thyroid deficiency thyroid blood tests are easy cheap and effective in diagnosing thyroid deficiencies jackie
sci.med	re persistent vs chronic in article rm k i t hsdndev harvard edu rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes in article enea enea apple com enea applelink apple com horace enea writes can anyone out there tell me the difference between a persistent disease and a chronic one for example persistent hepatitis vs chronic hepatitis i don t think there is a general distinction rather there are two classes of chronic hepatitis chronic active hepatitis and chronic persistent hepatitis i can t think of any other disease where the term persistent is used with or in preference to chronic much as these two terms chronic active and chronic persistent sound fuzzy the actual distinction between the two conditions is often fairly fuzzy as well i beg to differ chronic active hepatitis implies that the disease remains active and generally leads to liver failure at the very minimum the patient has persistently elevated liver enzymes what some call transaminitis chronic persistant hepatitis simply means that the patient has hbsag in his her blood and can transmit the infection but shows no evidence of progressive disease if i had to choose i d much rather have the persistant type kenneth gilbert university of pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not a programmer
sci.med	re pregnency without sex len howard tas pegasus com wrote well now doc i sure would not want to bet my life on those little critters not being able to get thru one layer of sweat soaked cotton on their way to do their programmed task infrequent yes unlikely yes but impossible i learned a long time ago never to say never in medicine g len howard md facog yes i suppose a single layer of wet cotton would be feasible after all we certainly do not make condoms out of cotton kenneth gilbert university of pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not a programmer
sci.med	nose picking i have two quations to ask does it cause the body any harm if one picks one s nose for example might it lead to a loss of ability to smell is it harmful for one to eat one s nose pickings stephen
sci.med	re pregnency without sex in article apr oswego oswego edu harry matthews writes i ve heard of community swimming pools refered to as public urinals so what else is going on do you swim nude in a public swimming pool i doubt sperm can penetrate swimsuit material assuming they aren t immediately dispersed by water currents brian tao taob r node hub org r node bbs free taobri wave scar utoronto ca university of toronto
sci.med	re krillean photography in article c oil vuse vanderbilt edu alexander p zijdenbos writes i am neither a real believer nor a disbeliever when it comes to so called paranormal stuff but as far as i m concerned it is just as likely as the existence of for instance a god which seems to be quite accepted in our societies without any scientific basis but no one or at least not many people are trying to pass off god as a scientific fact not so with kirlian photography i ll admit that it is possible that some superior intelligence exists elsewhere and if people want to label that intelligence god i m not going to stop them anyway let s not turn this into a theological debate i am convinced that it is a serious mistake to close your mind to something anything simply because it doesn t fit your current frame of reference history shows that many great people great scientists were people who kept an open mind and were ridiculed by sceptics read alt fan robert mcelwaine sometime i ve never been so closed minded before subscribing to that group brian tao taob r node hub org r node bbs free taobri wave scar utoronto ca university of toronto
sci.med	re centi and milli pedes i remember as a kid visiting my relatives on kauai and one of the things that really frightened me was centipedes i d been told they were poisonous and infrequently one would pop up and scare the heck out of me once one came out of the vacuum cleaner and it seemed like it was at least a foot long and moving at miles an hour
sci.med	re need info on circumcision medical cons and pros menon boulder colorado edu ravi or deantha menon writes aezpete deja vu aiss uiuc edu writes the penile cancer thing has been completely debunked she must be going to school on a south pacific island tell her to check the journal or urology for circumcision articles i remember at least on an old jewish man cut at birth who developed penile cancer i mean if the cancer risk was that great the europe who have been circumcising like crazy too teaching a boy how to keep his cockhead clean is the issue a little proper hygiene goes a long way americans are just too hung up on the penis to consider cleaning it that s just way too much like mastubation so you have surgical intervention that is basically unnecessary peter schlumpf university of illinois at urbana champaign as i recall it is a statistical anomaly because of the sample involved in the studies i am certain that if it were true the europeans would be cutting kids right left first off use some decent terms if ya don t mind this is sci med not alt sex secondly how absolutely bogus to assume that american s are just too hung up on the penis blah blah i think most american s don t care about anything so comlicated as that they just think it looks nicer ask a few of them and see what response you get others still opt for circumcision due to religious traditions and beliefs some think it is easier to clean still others do it because daddy was i think alot do it blindly because dad had it done but there are many who get bamboozled into it with the bogus cancer thing awhile back some quack told a friend of mine that it would help prevent aids yeah right sarchasm dont be so naive as to think american s are afraid of sexuality oh yeah scene navy boot camp di son you smel awful dont you ever clean that thing recruit no sir di why the hell not recruit your not sposed to touch down there di why recruit cause thats the eye of god down there an your not s posed to touch it this did not happen years ago it happened years ago i think americans are quite hung up about sex and the involved plumbing
sci.med	re info colonics and purification not everything that goes in comes out and personaly i don t mind giving my body a hand once in a while just my experience george paap i ve got a very nice collection of historical books on medical quackery and on the topic of massage this is a recurring theme ordinary massage is intended to make a person feel better especially if they have muscular or joint problems but like chiropracty there are some practitioners who take the technique to a far extreme invoking what seems to me to be quack science to justify their technique in the case of massage there is a technique called deep abdominal massage in which the masseur is literally attempting to massage the intestines the notion is that undigested food adheres to the inner surface of the intestines and putrifies releasing poisons which cause various disease syndromes by this vigorous and painful procedure it is alleged that these deposits can be loosened up and passed out i just can t believe this idea has any truth behind it the human intestine is not a new york city sewer pipe and even if it were you eat half of a small box of triscuits and there ain t gonna be nothin sticking to the inner surface of your intestine
sci.med	data of skull gt from gary concave cs wits ac za gary taylor gt hi we are trying to develop a image reconstruction simulation for the skull you could do high resolution ct computed tomographic scanning of the skull many ct scanners have an algorithm to do d reconstructions in any plane you want if you did reconstructions every degrees or so in all planes you could use the resultant images to create user controlled animation slmr e mail jim zisfein factory com jim zisfein
sci.med	re need info on circumcision medical cons and pros in article rsvgr r nym ossi com texx ossi com texx writes oh yeah scene navy boot camp di son you smel awful dont you ever clean that thing recruit no sir di why the hell not recruit your not sposed to touch down there di why recruit cause thats the eye of god down there an your not s posed to touch it this did not happen years ago it happened years ago i think americans are quite hung up about sex and the involved plumbing wow that certainly convinced me that all americans ar hung up about sex just one example of something that probably ran in a hustler mag is enough to convince me sarchasm off patrick draper zbt we are a nation of laws not people draper umcc umich edu flames dev koresh university of michigan computer club
sci.med	re pregnency without sex in article c botf r node hub org taob r node hub org brian tao writes in article apr oswego oswego edu harry matthews writes i ve heard of community swimming pools refered to as public urinals so what else is going on do you swim nude in a public swimming pool i doubt sperm can penetrate swimsuit material assuming they aren t immediately dispersed by water currents brian tao taob r node hub org r node bbs free taobri wave scar utoronto ca university of toronto here we go again u uk k university gary w gregory u uk k of kentucky gwgreg ukcc uky edu u ukkk uu uuk kk uuu k kk department of ob gyn ms medical center lexington kentucky
sci.med	re nose picking i don t know if it causes the body any harm but in the years i ve been teaching nine and ten years olds i ve never had one fall over from eating boogers which many kids do on a regular basis when they think no one is looking
sci.med	meaning of atheism agnosticism was krillean photography sci med removed from followups and i do not read any of the other newsgroups in article apr rosevax rosemount com grante aquarius rosemount com grant edwards writes as a self proclaimed atheist my position is that i believe that there is no god i don t claim to have any proof i interpret the agnostic position as having no beliefs about god s existence that s fine these words have multiple meanings as a self proclaimed atheist i believe that some conceptions of god are inconsistent or in conflict with fact and i lack belief in other conceptions of god merely because there is no reason for me to believe in these i usually use the word agnostic to mean someone who believes that the existence of a god is unknown inherently unknowable note that this is a positive belief that is quite different from not believing in a god i do not believe in a god but i also do not believe the agnostic claim russell
sci.med	q repelling wasps this is a cross post to rec gardens and sci med set the follow up line in the header depending on what kind of advice you give or e mail directly to me ceci lysator liu se i have a problem with wasps they seem to love me last summer i couldn t spend more than ten to fifteen minutes at a time in my garden before one or several wasps would come for me i am asking for advice on how to repel wasps this year the wasps have built their nest under a stone next to one of my tiny ponds the caretaker poor fellow will have to take care of them and that will give me a head start on them last year we couldn t find any nest even after the caretaker has gassed the nest in my tiny garden of square meter other wasps will most likely vie for the territory is there anything i can grow rub on my skin or spread on the soil that will repel the black and yellow bastards never mind if it turns my skin purple or kills off all my beloved plants i want to be able to spend time in my garden like everyone else would it help to remove the ponds and the bird bath the wasps seem to come to drink at them and i suppose that their prey will breed in them the black tits seem to be afraid of the wasps because as soon as the wasp season starts they stop coming to have their bath even when i am not trying to win back my patio from wasps they seem to love me the advice i usually get when i ask what to do about wasps is to stand still and not wave my arms i ve got some painful stings when trying to follow that advice i have also tried to use hygienic products without perfumes to no avail they still love me and come for me even when i m in the middle of a crowd so far only two things seem to work to kill it dead or to run into the house and close all doors and windows nb i don t have a problem with bees or bumble bees just wasps patronizing advice redirected to dev null ceci ceci lysator liu se the number of rational hypotheses that can explain any given phenomenon is infinite phaedrus law from rm pirsig s zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance
sci.med	re lithium questions doctor wants my year old on it in article rrv i m dr pepper east sun com george crayola east sun com i would like to know anything you folks can tell me regarding lithium i have a year old son that lives with my ex wife she has been having difficulty with his behavior and has had him on ritalin tofranil and now wants to try lithuim at the local doctors suggestion i would like to know whatever is important that i should know i worry about this sort of thing and would like pros cons regarding lithium therapy i have a booklet from the lithium information center based at the university of wisconsin but feel that it is pro lithium and would be interested in comments from the not necessarily pro side of the fence i am a concerned father and just wish to be well informed i get antsy about posts like this is the concern more for son or about ex w ife the standard impartial procedure is to ask for a second opinion about son s condition then too is son acting out games between divorced parents
sci.med	re lithium questions doctor wants my year old on it in article rfm psuvm psu edu rfm psuvm psu edu writes someone writes i have a year old son that lives with my ex wife she has been having difficulty with his behavior and has had him on ritalin tofranil and now wants to try lithuim at the local doctors suggestion i would like to know whatever is important that i should know i worry about this sort of thing and would like pros cons regarding lithium therapy i get antsy about posts like this is the concern more for son or about ex w ife the standard impartial procedure is to ask for a second opinion about son s condition then too is son acting out games between divorced parents precisely one wonders what unusual strain the boy might be under that could be causing difficulty with his behavior standard practice would be to get a second opinion from a child psychiatrist one would want to rule out the possibility that the bad behavior is not psychiatric illness at all disclaimer i am not a medic but i am a parent michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
sci.med	re persistent vs chronic in article blue cis pitt edu kxgst pitt edu kenneth gilbert writes in article rm k i t hsdndev harvard edu rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes in article enea enea apple com enea applelink apple com horace enea writes can anyone out there tell me the difference between a persistent disease and a chronic one for example persistent hepatitis vs chronic hepatitis i don t think there is a general distinction rather there are two classes of chronic hepatitis chronic active hepatitis and chronic persistent hepatitis i can t think of any other disease where the term persistent is used with or in preference to chronic much as these two terms chronic active and chronic persistent sound fuzzy the actual distinction between the two conditions is often fairly fuzzy as well i beg to differ chronic active hepatitis implies that the disease remains active and generally leads to liver failure at the very minimum the patient has persistently elevated liver enzymes what some call transaminitis chronic persistant hepatitis simply means that the patient has hbsag in his her blood and can transmit the infection but shows no evidence of progressive disease if i had to choose i d much rather have the persistant type being a chronic hbsag carrier does not necessarily mean the patient has chronic persistent anything persons who are chronic carriers may have no clinical biochemical or histologic evidence of liver disease or they may have chronic persistent hepatitis chronic active hepatitis cirrhosis or hepatocellular carcinoma most cases of chronic persistent hepatitis cph are probably the result of a viral infection although in a good number of cases the cause cannot be determined the diagnosis of cph is made on the basis of liver biopsy it consists of findings of portal inflammation an intact periportal limiting plate and on occasion isolated foci of intralobular necrosis but in contrast to chronic active hepatitis cah there is no periportal inflammation bridging necrosis or fibrosis cph has indeed an excellent prognosis if i had to choose between cah and cph there is no question i would also choose cph however as david pointed out the distinction between the two is not as neat as some of us would have it the histology can sometimes be pretty equivocal with biopsies showing areas compatible with both cph and cah maybe it is a sampling problem maybe it is a continuum i don t know howard doyle doyle pitt edu
sci.med	re info colonics and purification in article cup portal com mmm cup portal com mark robert thorson writes not everything that goes in comes out and personaly i don t mind giving my body a hand once in a while just my experience george paap i ve got a very nice collection of historical books on medical quackery and on the topic of massage this is a recurring theme ordinary massage is intended to make a person feel better especially if they have muscular or joint problems but like chiropracty there are some practitioners who take the technique to a far extreme invoking what seems to me to be quack science to justify their technique in the case of massage there is a technique called deep abdominal massage in which the masseur is literally attempting to massage the intestines the notion is that undigested food adheres to the inner surface of the intestines and putrifies releasing poisons which cause various disease syndromes by this vigorous and painful procedure it is alleged that these deposits can be loosened up and passed out i just can t believe this idea has any truth behind it the human intestine is not a new york city sewer pipe and even if it were you eat half of a small box of triscuits and there ain t gonna be nothin sticking to the inner surface of your intestine mark this is the most reasonable post that i ve seen in sci med on the topic of colonic flushing i m in a profession that uses manipulation a very refined form of massage to treat various human diseases proving that manipulation works has been extremely difficult as the md s delight in pointing out the osteopathic profession seems to be making better progress than the chiropractors in proving scientifically that their techingues work the jaoa recently had a study on the use of manipulation to relieve mensrual cramps in women with results that were as good or better than drug treatment using physiological measurements and not just the woman s preception of improvement this study was hailed by the jaoa editors as the turning point in the profession s long struggle to prove itself to the medical community i m currently trying to get the aoa american osteopathic association which has supported most of the osteopathic research in the u s to also support nutrition education and research i ve pointed out in a grant proposal that the founder of osteopathic medicine a t still embraced both diet and manipulation to set himself apart from the md s of his time who were pushing only drugs still was himself an md who got real dissillusioned with drugs during his service in the civil war he decided that there had to be a better way to treat human disease since he saw the cure drugs as being worse than the disease through his many years of study of the human body he developed his manipulation techniques that he then taught to his students in the u s s first osteopathic medical school we now have still used manipulation to treat and also diagnose human disease but he used diet to prevent human disease i m trying to get the osteopathic profession to return to it s roots and beat the md s to the punch so to speak both do s and md s in current medical practice have very little understanding of how diet affects human health this has to change martin banschbach ph d professor of biochemistry and chairman department of biochemistry and microbiology osu college of osteopathic medicine you are what you eat
sci.med	re opinions on allergy hay fever shots in article apr nntpd cxo dec com tung paaiec enet dec com writes i have just started taking allergy shots a month ago and is still wondering what i am getting into a friend of mine told me that the body change every years whatever that means and i don t need those antibody building allergy shots at all does that make sense to anyone btw can someone summarize what is in the consumer report february article i am reluctant to summarize it for then you will have my opinion of what the article says rather than your own opinion i think it is important enough for you to take the trouble to go to the library and get the article the title is the shot doctors and it appears on pages of the february issue of consumer reports the following excerpt from the article may entice you to read the whole article too often shots are overused when you put a patient on shots you ve got an annuity for life a former president of the american academy of allergy and immunology told cu page
sci.med	re need info on circumcision medical cons and pros texx ossi com texx writes scene navy boot camp di son you smel awful dont you ever clean that thing recruit no sir di why the hell not recruit your not sposed to touch down there di why recruit cause thats the eye of god down there an your not s posed to touch it this did not happen years ago it happened years ago i think americans are quite hung up about sex and the involved plumbing cute anecdote but hardly indicative of the population from the responses i ve received to that post all from men by the way i get the impression that unless a person is willing to drop down and masturbate whenever the need or desire strikes then that person is very hung up on sex with tv programs about boobs seinfeld and masturbation again seinfeld and with condoms being handed out in high schools and with the teenage pregnancy rate and the high abortion rate here in the states i would not assume that we american s are frightened of sex rather we are a bit stupid about it healthy sexuality does not require flamboyance or promiscuity it requires responsibility deantha
sci.med	re deadly nyquil in article c bk f h i murdoch acc virginia edu res w galen med virginia edu robert e schmieg writes partial deletion potentially fatal from hepatic necrosis if i recall correctly the metabolism of acetaminophen at high doses involves n hydroxylation to n acetyl benzoquinoneimine which is a highly reactive intermediate which then reacts with sulfhydryl groups of proteins and glutathione when hepatic glutathione is used up this intermediate then starts attacking the hepatic proteins with resulting hepatic necrosis the insidious part of acetaminophen toxicity is the delay days between ingestion and clinical signs of liver damage this is not a nice way to die nice explanation except that it isn t n hydroxylation that causes the formation of the n acetyl p benzoquinone imine napqi but rather a direct two electron oxidation in addition there is one school of thought that contends that oxidative stress rather than arylation of protein is the more critical factor in the hapatotoxcity of acetaminophen as far as drug toxicities go acetaminophen has and continues to be one of the most intensely scrutinized an excellent recent review of the topic can be found in vermeulen bessems and van de straat molecular aspects of paracetamol induced hepatotoxicity and its mechanism based prevention drug metabolism reviews acetaminophen is known as paracetamol in europe i couldn t agree with you more about what an awful way to die a toxic dose of acetaminophen causes i ve heard a number of descriptions by physicians associated with poison control centers and they describe a lingering very painful death gary
sci.med	sleep the pulse of relaxation roaming while sleeping i posted about a pulse of relaxation electricity i now think it more like a pulse of relaxation or comfort than a pulse of electricity it is what you feel if you are overwhelmed by a feeling of comfort such as seeing or thinking about something beautiful another thing when you sleep you lie down facing up with your palms aside of you and facing down on the surface of the bed then you relax and there start involuntary nerve firings inside your flesh so you feel a shiver below the surface of the skin not heart beat then this shiver increases and comes up to your head and the roam you hear loudens note that you always hear a high pitch when you lie down in bed this is just the noise of your blood running in your ear this roam is different from the high pitch but follows the shiver of your body shiver is not the word it may be called a mild vibration or quake what is this shiver and roam can i use this to induce out of body experience daniel chung mr u s a
sci.med	help with antidepressants requested hello all there is a small problem a friend of mine is experiencing and i would appreciate any help at all with it my friend has been diagnosed as having a severe case of depression requiring antidepressants for a cure the main problem is the side effects of these so far she has been prescribed prozac aurorix and tryptanol all with different but unbearable side effects the prozac gave very bad anxiety jitters and insomina it was impossible to sit still for more than a minute or so the aurorix whilst having a calming effect all feelings were lost and the body co ordination was similar to a drunken person her brain was clouded over the tryptanol gave tremors in the legs and panic attacks along with unco ordination occurred she did not know what she was doing as her brain was closed down has anyone had similar problems and or have any suggestions as to the next step thankyou in advance gordon taylor e mail blubird penguin equinox gen nz
sci.med	re persistent vs chronic in article blue cis pitt edu doyle pitt edu howard r doyle writes being a chronic hbsag carrier does not necessarily mean the patient has chronic persistent anything persons who are chronic carriers may have no clinical biochemical or histologic evidence of liver disease or they may have chronic persistent hepatitis chronic active hepatitis cirrhosis or hepatocellular carcinoma most cases of chronic persistent hepatitis cph are probably the result of a viral infection although in a good number of cases the cause cannot be determined the diagnosis of cph is made on the basis of liver biopsy it consists of findings of portal inflammation an intact periportal limiting plate and on occasion isolated foci of intralobular necrosis but in contrast to chronic active hepatitis cah there is no periportal inflammation bridging necrosis or fibrosis cph has indeed an excellent prognosis if i had to choose between cah and cph there is no question i would also choose cph however as david pointed out the distinction between the two is not as neat as some of us would have it the histology can sometimes be pretty equivocal with biopsies showing areas compatible with both cph and cah maybe it is a sampling problem maybe it is a continuum i don t know darn just when i think i understand something someone who knows the pathology has to burst my bubble we d better not start talking about glomerular diseases then i ll really get depressed seriously though i wonder how someone with cph would end up getting a biopsy in the first place my understanding and feel free to correct me is that the enzymes are at worst mildly elevated with overall normal hepatic function i would think that the only clue might be a history of prior hepb infection and a positive hepb sag or is it indeed on a continuum with cah and the distinction merely one of pathology and prognosis but otherwise identical clinical features kenneth gilbert university of pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not a programmer
sci.med	re help with antidepressants requested in article snx penguin equinox gen nz blubird penguin equinox gen nz gordon taylor wrote the prozac gave very bad anxiety jitters and insomina it was impossible to sit still for more than a minute or so i tried prozac a few months ago and had some insomnia from it but no anxiety or jitters i probably could have lived with the insomnia if the prozac had done any good but it only provided a tiny benefit maybe because the person who prescribed it didn t know much and gave up after a mg dose didn t work now i m seeing a psychiatrist who has put me on zoloft another serotonin reuptake inhibitor like prozac one pill day mg seemed to help some now i m trying mg day zoloft has fewer and milder side effects than prozac i think my doctor said that only of the people taking zoloft have to discontinue it because of side effects the only problem i m having is some minor gi distress but nothing too annoying hopefully the zoloft will work maybe your friend should try this one next my psychiatrist s strategy seems to be to first try one of the serotonin drugs usually prozac if that works great if it works but has too many side effects try zoloft or maybe paxil if the serotonin drugs don t work at all try one of the tricyclics like desipramine suggestions as to the next step having a doctor who knows something about antidepressants can make a big difference my psychiatrist claims that most gps and fps don t have much experience in this area and from what i ve seen i m inclined to believe him i think i know more about antidepressants than the people at my family practitioner s office disclaimer i m not a doctor what i know about this comes from talking to my psychiatrist and reading sci med john werner werner soe berkeley edu uc berkeley school of education
sci.med	re krillean photography in article c bot a r node hub org taob r node hub org writes in article c oil vuse vanderbilt edu alexander p zijdenbos writes i am neither a real believer nor a disbeliever when it comes to but no one or at least not many people are trying to pass off god will you please keep this crap out of sci image processing
sci.med	re antidepressants without restating the thread going here zoloft is a stimulating antidepressant it is unfortunate that antidepressant therapy is trial and error but if it is any help there are a lot of people using the side effects of the many medications to help manage other conditions hang in there maybe someday a brain chemistry set will be available and all the serotonin questions will have answers please no flames i have enough to deal with
sci.med	is this a total or partial scam there s a chiropractor who has a stand in the middle of a shopping mall offering free examinations part of the process involves a multiple jointed sensor arm and a computer that says in a computer sounding voice digitize left psis digitize right psis digitize c please stand with spine in neutral position i m wondering whether this doesn t really measure anything and the computer voice is to impress the victims or whether it is measuring something that chiropractors think is useful to measure haynes cats ucsc edu haynes cats bitnet ya can talk all ya wanna but it s dif rent than it was no it aint but ya gotta know the territory meredith willson the music man
sci.med	is this a scam jim haynes wants to know the following is a scam there s a chiropractor who has a stand in the middle of a shopping mall offering free examinations part of the process involves a multiple jointed sensor arm and a computer that says in a computer sounding voice digitize left psis digitize right psis digitize c please stand with spine in neutral position i m wondering whether this doesn t really measure anything and the computer voice is to impress the victims or whether it is measuring something that chiropractors think is useful to measure earth to sci med if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck this is a total scam since the beginning of chiropraxis the chiropractor has tried to sell the subluxation as the problem and then sell themselves and their adjustments as the solution the chiropractic subluxation is a delusional diagnosis and the adjustments of subluxations by extension constitute a delusional medicine the wide spectrum of chiropractic techniques all have their own methods for detecting spinal demons and unique methodolgies for excorcizing them the computer approach is an attempt to sell with science but this device is nothing more than a high tech subluxation detector and in the end amazingly it will show the potential patient to suffer from vs vertebral subluxation the silent killer john badanes dc ca romdas uclink berkeley edu
sci.med	re vasectomy health effects on women on apr gmt joshm yang earlham edu wrote in article apr nic csu net eskagerb nermal santarosa edu eric skagerberg writes does anyone know of any studies done on the long term health effects of a man s vasectomy on his female partner i ve heard of no studies but speculation why on earth would there be any effect on women s health that s about the most absurd idea i ve heard since ted kaldis s claim that no more than people would march on washington ok one point greatly reduced chance of pregnancy but that s it josh well there might be another since i m sterile my wife can enjoy sex without fear of getting pregnant o uucp rutgers ur valhalla btoy mrbulli compu erve internet mrbulli btoy rochester ny us
sci.med	re antihistamine for sleep aid in article apr ux cts eiu edu cfaks ux cts eiu edu alice sanders writes but after you have taken antihistamines for a few nights doesn t it start to have a paradoxical effect i used to take one every night for allergies and couldn t figure out why i developed bad insomnia insomnia is a known but relatively infrequent side effect of diphenhydramine for most people this does not occur on the other hand most people can build up a tolerance to an antihistamine with extended use allergy sufferers are often switched from one antihistamine to another to avoid this steven litvintchouk mitre corporation burlington road bedford ma fone arpa sdl mitre org uucp linus sdl
sci.med	re nose picking in article stephen mont stephen mont cs missouri edu stephen montgomery smith writes does it cause the body any harm if one picks one s nose for example might it lead to a loss of ability to smell it may be a good way to catch a cold it s easy to pick up cold viruses on your fingers either from touching a contaminated surface or by shaking hands with someone that has a cold then putting your fingers in your nose will transfer the viruses to your nose steven litvintchouk mitre corporation burlington road bedford ma fone arpa sdl mitre org uucp linus sdl
sci.med	re persistent vs chronic in article blue cis pitt edu kxgst pitt edu kenneth gilbert writes seriously though i wonder how someone with cph would end up getting a biopsy in the first place my understanding and feel free to correct me is that the enzymes are at worst mildly elevated with overall normal hepatic function i would think that the only clue might be a history of prior hepb infection and a positive hepb sag or is it indeed on a continuum with cah and the distinction merely one of pathology and prognosis but otherwise identical clinical features chronic persistent hepatitis is usually diagnosed when someone does a liver biopsy on a patient that has persistently elevated serum transaminases months after a bout of acute viral hepatitis or when someone is found to have persistently elevated transaminases on routine screening tests the degree of elevation in the serum transaminases can be trivial or as much as ten times normal other blood chemistries are usually normal as a rule patients with cph have no clinical signs of liver disease chronic active hepatitis can also be asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic at least initially and that s why it s important to tell them apart by means of a biopsy the patient with cph only needs to be reassured the patient with cah needs to be treated howard doyle doyle pitt edu
sci.med	what is intersection syndrome and feldene hi i went to the orthopedist on tuesday he diagnosed me as having intersection syndrome he prescribed feldene for me i want to know more about the disease and the drug thanks somesh
sci.med	cancer of the testis could someone give me some information on the cause pathophysiology and clinical manifestations and treatment of this type of cancer thank you in advance jason
sci.med	how often do kids fall sick etc our month son has started falling sick quite often every since he started going to day care he was at home for the first year and he did not fall sick even once now it seems like he has some sort of cold or flu pretty much once a month most of the time the cold leads to an ear infection as well with the result that he ends up being on antibiotics weeks out of i know kids in day care fall sick more often but we are beginning to wonder how often more often really is whether our son is more susceptible or has lower immunity than average what the longer term effects of constantly being sick and taking antibiotics are and what we can do to build up his resistance he really enjoys his day care and we think it s great too but we are beginning to wonder whether we should think about getting a nanny are there any studies that can help answer some of these questions how often do kids in their first second and third years fall sick how often do they get colds flus ear infections is there any data on home care vs day care does being sick build immunity leading to less illness later does it make kids weaker leading to more illness later or does it not have any long term effect does taking antibiotics on a regular basis have any negative long term effects how does one tell if a child is more susceptible to illness than normal and what does one do about it is there any way to build immunity and resistance any data information or advice relating to this would be much appreciated thanks a lot ashwin
sci.med	athlete s heart i ve read that exercise makes the heart pump more blood at a stroke and that it also makes the heart pumb slower in order to make up for the greater volume my internist who diagnosed my av block slow heart rate and pvc s told me something different she says that heart rate is associated with the electrical properties of the hear muscle not its size exercise lowers heart rate and increases stroke volume but the effects are unrelated except for their common source the av block she asserts is another electrical effect which is irreversable even when exercise is dicontinued pvc s are also common in runners so my ekg puts me in a class with trained athletes and also with heart patients isn t that strange though are there any not so beneficial aspects to athlete s heart is it all good not worried just curious larry c
sci.med	fever blisters cause and cures for fever blisters respectfully requested thanks d iane origin another permannet kit
sci.med	re how often do kids fall sick etc in article ashwin may leo gatech edu ashwin agatech edu ashwin ram writes our month son has started falling sick quite often every since he started going to day care he was at home for the first year and he did not fall sick even once now it seems like he has some sort of cold or flu pretty much once a month most of the time the cold leads to an ear infection as well with the result that he ends up being on antibiotics weeks out of i know kids in day care fall sick more often but we are beginning to wonder how often more often really is whether our son is more susceptible or has lower immunity than average are there any studies that can help answer some of these questions when kids stayed in the home until kindergarden or st grade infection incidence was much lower because exposure was lower some studies suggest that early exposure to various infectious diseases is probably beneficial because exposure as an adult carries much more risk of morbitity and mortality mumps measles etc how often do kids in their first second and third years fall sick how often do they get colds flus ear infections is there any data on home care vs day care daycare will always carry a higher exposure risk than home care does being sick build immunity leading to less illness later does it make kids weaker leading to more illness later or does it not have any long term effect exposure to infectious organisms does build immunity but many viruses mutate and reexposure to the new strain requires another immune response new antibody production in addition antibody levels tend to decline with time and re innoculation is needed to keep the antibody levels high chronic overstimulation of the immune response can lead to immunosupression but this is rare and very unlikely to occur in children does taking antibiotics on a regular basis have any negative long term effects yes chronic use of antibiotics can have an adverse effect on the good bacteria that are supposed to be present in and on the body health effects of this depletion of the good bacteria is a very hotly debated topic in the medical community with most physicians seeming to discount any health effects of chronic antibiotic use a view that i do not support how does one tell if a child is more susceptible to illness than normal and what does one do about it chronic infection in an adult or a child needs to be worked up in my opinion but most physicians feel that chronic infection in a child is normal because of both exposure and lack of prior immunity to many infectious diseases i do not share this view and there are some physicians who also suspect that diet plays a big role in infection frequency and severity exposure to an infectious agent does not have to result in a severe infection a strong immune response can minimize the length of time needed to deal with the infection as well as the symptoms associated with the infection is there any way to build immunity and resistance there are five major nutrients that are responsible for a good strong immune response to infectious agents they are protein vitamin c vitamin a iron and zinc the american diet is not low in protein so this is rarely a problem but vitamin a vitamin c iron and zinc are often low and this lack of an adequate pool nutrient reserve can impair the immune response iron is know to be low in most kids as is vitamin a there are distinct biochemical tests that can be run to check the status of each of these nutrients in a patient who is having a problem with chronic severe infection serum ferritin for iron status dark adaptation for vitamin a status red blood cell zinc for zinc status and leckocyte ascorbate for vitamin c status i have attempted to work up posts on these five nutrients and their role in infection for this news group as well as the others that i participate in i can e mail you what i ve worked up so far but my best advice to you is to try to find a physician who recognizes the critical role that diet plays in the human immune response you may also be able to get help from a nutritionist anyone can call themselves a nutritionist so you have to be very carefull you want to find someone like myself who has had some formal training and education in nutrition many ph d programs in the u s now offer degrees in nutrition and that s what you need to look for some dieticians will also call themselves nutritionists but most dieticians have not had the biochemical training needed to run specialized nutritional assessment tests they are very good for getting general dietary advice from however any data information or advice relating to this would be much appreciated thanks a lot ashwin martin banschbach ph d graduate degree in biochemistry and nutrition from vpi and developer of a course on human nutrition for medical students
sci.med	re burzynski s antineoplastons nnget in article c bjyt a k ssr com sdb ssr com scott ballantyne says in article icgln asuacad bitnet icgln asuacad bitnet writes moss is people against cancer s director of communications people against cancer seems to offer pretty questionable information not exactly the place a cancer patient should be advised to turn to and where do you advise people to turn for cancer information most maybe all of the infomation in their latest catalogue concern treatments that have been shown to be ineffective against cancer and many of the treatments are quite dangerous as well it seems to me you ve offered a circular refutation of moss s organization who has shown the information in the latest book of pac to be questionable could it be those regulatory agencies and medical industries which moss is showing to be operating with major vested interests whether one believes that these vested interests are real or not or whether or not they actually shape medical research is a seperate argument if one sees a possibility however that these interests exist then the fact that some of the information put out by pac has been refuted by the medical industry doesn t hold much weight as for the ineffectiveness of antineoplasteons the fact that the nih didn t find them effective doesn t make much sense here of course they didn t i tend to have more faith in the word of the patients who are now alive after being told years ago that they would be dead of cancer soon they are fighting like hell to keep that clinic open and they credit his treatment with their survival anyone who looks at the nih s record for investigation of alterna tive cancer therapies will easily see that they have a strange knack for find ing relatively cheap and nontoxic therapies dangerous or useless gn
sci.med	help info claritin allergies my doc handed me mg samples of claritin brand of ioratadine tablet from schering corp i tried to find it in the pdr to no avail i do remember she mentioned this drug was relatively new to the us but available overseas for quite some time looking mostly for side effect contraindications and mode of action such that it differs from seldane and hismanal email or newsgroup is fine thanx in advance steve giammarco peterson lane dallas tx marco sdf lonestar org loveyameanit
sci.med	re nose picking stephen mont cs missouri edu stephen montgomery smith writes does it cause the body any harm if one picks one s nose for example might it lead to a loss of ability to smell is it harmful for one to eat one s nose pickings i ve seen children do this and wondered about something if the mucus in one s nose collects filters particles going into the airway if a child then picks and ingests this material might it have a vaccinatory effect since if the body ingests airborne diseases or other stuff on the mucus the body might generate antibodies for this small invasion maybe this is why some children don t get sick very often tom internet mvac thomas udel edu or thomas mvac udel edu home lapp cdhub dnet dupont com work osi c us a mci s lapp d id uucp ucbvax mcvax uunet udel mvac thomas location newark de usa
sci.med	thermoscan ear thermomete to ashwin cc gatech edu ashwin ram ar does the thermoscan instrument really work it is supposed to give you a absolutely ya don t have to do the other end it is accurate but technique is important cccbbs rob welder uceng uc edu qmpro see it only hurts for a little while
sci.med	re how often do kids fall sick etc in article ashwin may leo gatech edu ashwin cc gatech edu ashwin ram writes our month son has started falling sick quite often every since he started going to day care he was at home for the first year and he did not fall sick even once now it seems like he has some sort of cold or flu pretty much once a month most of the time the cold leads to an ear infection as well with the result that he ends up being on antibiotics weeks out of i know kids in day care fall sick more often but we sounds pretty familiar i posted similar cries about last september when caroline just entered daycare she was two then and have been with continuous colds since until last march as spring approaches her colds slowed down meanwhile we grew more and more relaxed about her colds only once did the doctor diagnosed an ear infection and only twice she had antibiotics the other time was due to sinus infection and i wished that i did not give her that awful septra are there any studies that can help answer some of these questions there are the net studies that is if you read this newsgroup often there will be a round of questions like this every month there might be formal studies like that but bear with my not so academic experience okay how often do kids in their first second and third years fall sick how often do they get colds flus ear infections gee i bet you ll hear cases in all these catagories is there any data on home care vs day care i am pretty sure an insulated child at home sicks less but that child still will face the world one day does being sick build immunity leading to less illness later that s what i believe and comfort myself with caroline will get more and more colds for sure before she learned not to stick her hand in other kid s mouth nor let other kids do the same cold virus mutate easily however i hope that her immune system will be stronger to fight these diseases so she would be less severely affected everytime she has a cold we make sure she blow her nose frequently and give her dorcol or dimetapp at night so she can have good rest thanks to some suggestions from the net that s about all the care she needs from us i try very hard to keep her off antibiotics twice her ped gave me choice to decide whether she would have antibiotics i waited just long enough days to see that she fought the illness off i do understand that you don t have much choice if the child is in pain and or high fever does it make kids weaker leading to more illness later or does it not have any long term effect if the child doesn t rely on antibiotics to fight off the sickness everytime then the child should be stronger does taking antibiotics on a regular basis have any negative long term effects i ll leave this to expert how does one tell if a child is more susceptible to illness than normal and what does one do about it if your child just entered daycare i m pretty sure the first months will be the hardest then you get more used to it boy do i hate to see me typing this sentence i recall when i read something like this last september i said to myself oh sure but i do get used to it now however i do hear people say that it does get better after a year or two i am looking forward to a healthier next winter as it gets warmer i hope you do get some break soon is there any way to build immunity and resistance eat well sleep well try not to use antibiotics if not absolutely necessary good luck wen lin
sci.med	re cure for dry skin jlecher pbs org writes in article rmn c v morrow stanford edu mou nova stanford edu alex mou writes hi all my skin is very dry in general but the most serious part is located from knees down the skin there looks like segmented the segmentation actually happens beneath the skin i would like to know if there is any cure for this as a matter of fact i just saw a dermatologist the other day and while i was there i asked him about dry skin i d been spending a small fortune on various creams lotions and other dry skin treatments he said all i needed was a large jar of vaseline soak in a lukewarm tub of water for minutes only minutes then massage in the vaseline to trap the moisture in that is the standard advice in dermatology texts the soak part greatly increases the inconvenience don t bother unless it doesn t work otherwise the hard part will be finding the time to rub in the vaseline properly exactly but it adds to the ritual aspect which is important for us suggestible patients posters don t bother to repeat the rationale for the soak if it s not done right you remain greasy and stick greasy no matter what vaseline generically petrolatum is famous for that one text states that the more greasy a dry skin cream is the more effective try it it s got to be cheaper then spending for oz of natural lotion try usp lanolin at least for maintenance preventive therapy usp lanolin is natural and much less greasy and cheap don t buy the more expensive perfumed lanolin mixture as i ve commented before petrolatum is a poorly characterized mixture of hydrocarbons which are not found in biological systems that is not inherently bad but smell it up close even on your hand are partially absorbed into the body and remain there for months or more and have associations with cancer don t panic but also don t believe it s god s gift to the human skin oren haber schaim
sci.med	re thermoscan ear thermometer in article ashwin may leo gatech edu ashwin cc gatech edu ashwin ram writes does the thermoscan instrument really work it is supposed to give you a fast and accurate temperature reading in the ear how far in the ear does one have to insert the instrument is it worth the it is currently selling for no they do not work well my doctor started using one recently and i thought the concept was so amazing that i bought one too the thing works by reading the infrared emissions from the ear drum the ear drum is hotter than the ear canal walls so you have to point the thing very carefully this means tugging on the top of the ear to straighten out the ear canal then inserting the thing snugly then pushing a button unfortunately there are many things that can go wrong it is almost impossible to aim the thing correctly when you do it on yourself i get readings which differ from each other by up to degrees and may differ from an oral thermometer by up to degrees i talked to one of the nurses in my doctor s office recently about this and she said she didn t like them either for same reasons she did give me some instruction on how to tug on my ear and what correct insertion feels like but she said she thought it was impossible to do correctly on one s self she also said that she and other nurses had complained to the company about inaccurate readings and that someone from the company had told them to take great care to clean the infrared window at the end of the probe with alcohol from time to time she demonstrated this prior to reading my temperature and managed to get a reading within degree of the oral temperature i took at home before driving to the dr s office i have also noticed tha some nurses click the button then remove the probe immediately this causes wrong readings in my experience you have to leave the probe in a good to seconds after clicking the button to get a good measurement the nurse i talked with agreed i suspect that many people don t realize this and therefore get bad readings for yet another reason in short it s a great idea it may work for some folks but i believe it doesn t work well for a person who wants to take his own temperature
sci.med	muscle spasms post surgically i had ankle reconstruction grafting the extensor digitorum longus to the lateral side of the ankle along with a video arthroscopy of the ankle interesting to watch to say the least since then i have had periodic muscle spasms not cramping but twitching that is very fast in some of the muscle groups along the lateral side and along the top of my foot tx with quinine sulfate produced ringing in my ears but did help with the spasms i am on flexeril now but no discernable help with the spasms any ideas one thing i am in a short leg cast so heat is not the answer renee roberts
sci.med	re help for kidney stones in a previous article jeffs sr hp com jeff silva says i was told by my doctor at that time that the pain was comparable to that of childbirth yes by a male doctor so i m sure some of you women will disagree i d really like to know the truth in this so maybe some of you women who have had a baby and a kidney stone could fill me in i ve had three children and the pain was different in degree for each i think it just depends i was impressed by how awful a kidney stone seemed to be when i saw a relative with one i bet they depend too some are probably worse than others pain yucch bonita kale
sci.med	arthritis and diabetes i have osteoarthritis and my huband has just been diagnosed with diabetes type ii i guess no insulin i ve been trying to read up on these two conditions and what really surprises me is how few experiments have been done and how little is known losing weight appears to be imperative for diabetes and advisable for arthritis at least for women with arthritis but of course the very conditions that make weight loss advisable are part of the reason for the weight gain for myself i m almost afraid to lose weight because no matter how gentle and sensible a diet i use the last one was calories in about eight small meals the weight won t go off gradually and stay off instead it drops off precipitously and then comes back on with much interest like bread on the waters with this experience it s hard to be encouraging to my husband all i can suggest is to make it as gradual as possible meanwhile some experts recommend no sugar others no fat others just a balanced diet it s almost impossible to tell from their writings which parts of their recommendations are supposed to help the condition and which are merely ideas the expert thinks are nifty is it my imagination or are these very old conditions very poorly understood is it just that i m used to pediatrician talk it s strep give him this and he ll get well and so my expectations are too high bonita kale
sci.med	quality management 
sci.med	re bacteria invasion and swimming pools i have been struck down this past week by a stomach bug and fever which went away quickly when treated with an antibiotic the pharmacist told me the antibiotic is effective against a wide variety of gram negative bacteria i was wondering where i might have acquired such a bacteria could they hang out in swimming pool water or would the chlorine kill them feeling better i am j bronstein disraeli leland stanford edu
sci.med	re need info on circumcision medical cons and pros bullshit
sci.med	drop your drawers and the doctor will see you organization temple university x newsreader nnr vm s last week i went to see a gastroenterologist i had never met this doctor before and she did not know what i was there for as soon as i arrived somebody showed me to an examining room and handed me a gown they told me to undress from the waist down to be exact and wait for the doctor is this the usual drill when you go to a doctor for the first time i don t have much experience going to doctors knock on wood but on the couple of occasions when i ve gone to a new doctor i met him with my clothes on first he introduced himself asked what i was there for and took a history all before i undressed are patients usually expected to get naked before meeting a doctor for the first time personally i d prefer to meet the doctor on something remotely resembling a condition of parity and to establish an identity as a person who wears clothes before dropping my drawers if nothing else it minimizes the time that i have to spend in the self conscious ill at ease and vulnerable condition of a person with a bare bottom talking to somebody who is fully clothed does anybody besides me regard this get naked first and then we can talk attitude as insensitive also is it unusual james arbuckle email v e vm temple edu
sci.med	re persistent vs chronic in article blue cis pitt edu doyle pitt edu howard r doyle writes chronic persistent hepatitis is usually diagnosed when someone does a liver biopsy on a patient that has persistently elevated serum transaminases months after a bout of acute viral hepatitis or when someone is found to have persistently elevated transaminases on routine screening tests the degree of elevation in the serum transaminases can be trivial or as much as ten times normal other blood chemistries are usually normal as a rule patients with cph have no clinical signs of liver disease chronic active hepatitis can also be asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic at least initially and that s why it s important to tell them apart by means of a biopsy the patient with cph only needs to be reassured the patient with cah needs to be treated i just went back to the chapter in cecil on chronic hepatitis it seems that indeed most cases of cph are persistant viral hepatitis whereas there are a multitude of potential and probable causes for cah viral drugs alcohol autoimmune etc physicians seem to have a variety of thresholds for electing to biopsy someone s liver personally i think that if the patient is asymptomatic with only slight transaminitis and normal albumin and pt one can simply follow them closely and not add the potential risks of a biopsy others may well biopsy such a patient thus providing these samples for study it would be interesting to see if anyone s done any decision analysis on this kenneth gilbert university of pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not a programmer
sci.med	re drop your drawers and the doctor will see you this is not an unusual practice if the doctor is also a member of a nudist colony sir i admit your gen ral rule that every poet is a fool but you yourself may serve to show it that every fool is not a poet a pope
sci.space	re help viewing voyager cd roms on mac in article cnp morrow stanford edu me dmg forsythe stanford edu david gaba m d writes two and a half years ago i purchased a set of cd roms from the university of colorado lab for atmos and space physics they were space sciences sampler and voyagers to the outer planets with pixel pusher we could never get past messages something like this file has no pds label please fill in the following info a bunch of slots with most zeros yet we could open the image file in word and see the label file at the beginning the compressed image format used for the voyager disks is not yet supported by any macintosh display software that i know of however there does exist a program that can convert the images to a format that is recognized by recent versions of both pixel pusher and nih image it is called pds decompress and is available via anonymous ftp from the pub directory on delcano mit edu this is a binhex stuffit archive and contains the application itself think c source and a very brief description the most recent version of nih image may be down loaded from starhawk jpl nasa gov where it is located in image hqx in the pub directory this archive also contains source code but not the documentation which is located in the image hqx archive in the same directory regards peter g ford manager microwave subnode nasa planetary data system
sci.space	life on mars i know it s only wishful thinking with our current president but this is from last fall is there life on mars maybe not now but there will be daniel s goldin nasa administrator august ken jenks nasa jsc gm space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov the man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything edward john phelps american diplomat lawyer
sci.space	re drag free satellites regarding drag free satellites joe cain gives a good description of the concept it is however more than a concept the navy s triad satellite succesfully used drag free control drag free control is an integral part of the stanford gravity probe b spacecraft due to fly in it is also part of the european step satellite jeff v
sci.space	re i want that billion in article rh rqinni o mojo eng umd edu sysmgr king eng umd edu writes you d need to launch hlvs to send up large amounts of stuff do you know of a private titan pad nobody who is interested in launching things cheaply will buy titans it doesn t take many titan pricetags to pay for a laser launcher or a large gas gun or a development program for a big dumb booster all of which would have far better cost effectiveness henry i made the assumption that he who gets there firstest with the mostest wins only if he doesn t spend more than a billion dollars doing it since the prize is not going to be scaled up to match the level of effort you can spend a billion pretty quickly buying titan launches what s more if you buy titans the prize money is your entire return on investment if you develop a new launch system it has other uses and the prize is just the icing on the cake i doubt very much that a billion dollar prize is going to show enough return to justify the investment if you are constrained to use current us launchers there would surely be a buy american clause in the rules for such a prize since it would pretty well have to be government funded you re going to have to invest your front money in building a new launch system rather than pissing it away on existing ones being there first is of no importance if you go bankrupt doing it could i get a couple of canadarms tuned for the lunar environment i wanna do some teleoperated prospecting while i m up there i m sure spar would offer to develop such a lunar tuned system and deliver a couple of them to you for only a couple of hundred million dollars svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	moonbase race george william herbert sez hmm billion lesse i can probably launch tons to leo at million in five years which gives about tons to the lunar surface one way say five tons of that is a return vehicle and its fuel a bigger mercury or something might get that as low as two tons leaving fifteen tons for a one man habitat and a year s supplies gee with that sort of mass margins i can build the systems off the shelf for about another hundred million tops that leaves about million profit i like this idea let s see if you guys can push someone to make it happen i like your optimism george i don t know doots about raising that kind of dough but if you need people to split the work and the m you just give me a ring living alone for a year on the moon sounds horrid but i d even try that if i got a bigger cut tommy mac tom mcwilliams wk as the radius of vision increases tm ibm cl msu edu hm the circumference of mystery grows
sci.space	re true globe who makes it in article bill m xpresso uucp bill xpresso uucp bill vance writes it has been known for quite a while that the earth is actually more pear shaped than globular spherical does anyone make a globe that is accurate as to actual shape landmass configuration long lat lines etc the variance from perfect sphericity in a model of the earth small enough to fit into your home would probably be imperceptible any globe you can buy will be close enough some things are too important not to give away to everybody else and have none left for yourself dieter the car salesman
sci.space	electronic journal of the asa ejasa april the electronic journal of the astronomical society of the atlantic volume number april table of contents asa membership and article submission information the soviets and venus part larry klaes asa membership information the electronic journal of the astronomical society of the atlantic ejasa is published monthly by the astronomical society of the atlantic incorporated the asa is a non profit organization dedicated to the advancement of amateur and professional astronomy and space exploration as well as the social and educational needs of its members asa membership application is open to all with an interest in astronomy and space exploration members receive the journal of the asa hardcopy sent through united states mail not a duplicate of this electronic journal and the astronomical league s reflector magazine members may also purchase discount subscriptions to astronomy and sky telescope magazines for information on membership you may contact the society at any of the following addresses astronomical society of the atlantic asa c o center for high angular resolution astronomy chara georgia state university gsu atlanta georgia u s a asa chara gsu edu asa bbs baud or telephone the society recording at to leave your address and or receive the latest society news asa officers and council president eric greene vice president jeff elledge secretary ingrid siegert tanghe treasurer mike burkhead directors becky long tano scigliano bob vickers council bill bagnuolo michele bagnuolo don barry bill black mike burkhead jeff elledge frank guyton larry klaes ken poshedly jim rouse tano scigliano john stauter wess stuckey harry taylor gary thompson cindy weaver bob vickers article submissions article submissions to the ejasa on astronomy and space exploration are most welcome please send your on line articles in ascii format to larry klaes ejasa editor at the following net addresses or the above society addresses klaes verga enet dec com or decwrl verga enet dec com klaes or klaes verga dec decwrl enet dec com or klaes verga enet dec com uunet uu net you may also use the above addresses for ejasa back issue requests letters to the editor and asa membership information when sending your article submissions please be certain to include either a network or regular mail address where you can be reached a telephone number and a brief biographical sketch back issues of the ejasa are also available from the asa anonymous ftp site at chara gsu edu directory pub ejasa disclaimer submissions are welcome for consideration articles submitted unless otherwise stated become the property of the astronomical society of the atlantic incorporated though the articles will not be used for profit they are subject to editing abridgment and other changes copying or reprinting of the ejasa in part or in whole is encouraged provided clear attribution is made to the astronomical society of the atlantic the electronic journal and the author s opinions expressed in the ejasa are those of the authors and not necessarily those of the asa this journal is copyright c by the astronomical society of the atlantic incorporated the soviets and venus part copyright c by larry klaes the author gives permission to any group or individual wishing to distribute this article so long as proper credit is given the author is notified and the article is reproduced in its entirety to the north pole on june and two of the soviet union s mighty proton rockets lifted off from the tyuratam space center in the kazakhstan republic aboard those boosters were a new breed of venera probe for the planet venus designated venera and the probes were meant not for landing yet more spherical craft on the venerean surface but to radar map the planet in detail from orbit to accomplish this task the basic venera design was modified in numerous areas the central bus core was made one meter inches longer to carry the two tons of propellant required for braking into orbit double the fuel carried by the venera and orbiters eight years earlier extra solar panels were added on to give the vehicles more power for handling the large amounts of data which would be created by the radar imaging the dish shaped communications antennae were also made one meter larger to properly transmit this information to earth atop the buses where landers were usually placed were installed the by meter by foot kilogram pound polyus v side looking radar antennae the radar system possibly a terrain imaging version of the nuclear powered satellites used by the soviets for earth ocean surveillance would be able to map venus surface at a resolution of one to two kilometers to miles the soviet probes imaging parameters were a vast improvement over the united states pioneer venus orbiter which could reveal objects no smaller than kilometers miles in diameter and while the veneras resolution was comparable to that of similar observations made by the meter foot arecibo radio telescope on the island of puerto rico the orbiters would be examining the northern pole of venus this region was unobtainable by either arecibo or pioneer venus and appeared to contain a number of potentially interesting geological features worthy of investigation on october after an interplanetary journey of million kilometers million miles and two mid course corrections venera fired its braking rockets over venus to place itself in a polar orbit by kilometers by miles around the planet completing one revolution every twenty four hours venera followed suit four days later the twin probes thus became venus first polar circling spacecraft radar operations began on october for venera and october for venera for up to sixteen minutes every orbit over the north pole the probes would make a radar sweep of the surface kilometers ninety miles wide and nine thousand kilometers miles long the craft would then head out to the highest part of their orbits over the south pole to recharge their batteries and transmit the data back to two large soviet antennae on earth each strip of information took eight hours to process by computer by the end of their main missions in july of the veneras had mapped million square kilometers million square miles thirty percent of the entire planet venera and revealed that venus has a surface geology more complex than shown by pioneer venus in the late s numerous hills mountains ridges valleys and plains spread across the landscape many of them apparently formed by lava from erupting volcanoes in the last one billion years in planetary terms this makes the venerean surface rather young hundreds of craters were detected as well the largest of which had to have been created by meteorites planetoids would be a better term here at least fourteen kilometers miles across due to venus very dense atmosphere there were some disagreements between u s and soviet scientists on the origins of certain surface features for example the probes owners declared that the kilometer mile wide crater at the summit of meter foot high maxwell montes the tallest mountain on the planet was the result of a meteorite impact american scientists on the other hand felt the crater was proof that maxwell was a huge volcano sitting on the northern continent of ishtar terra in any event the u s decided to wait on making verdicts about venus until the arrival of their own radar probe scheduled for later in the decade originally named the venus orbiting imaging radar voir its initial design was scaled back and the craft was redesig nated the venus radar mapper vrm eventually the machine would be called magellan after the portuguese navigator ferdinand magellan circa this vehicle would map the entire planet in even finer detail than the veneras for the time however the soviet probes maintained that distinction radar imaging was not the only ability of the veneras bolted next to the polyus v radar antenna were the omega altimeter and the fourier infrared spectrometer the latter for measuring the world s temperatures the majority of the areas covered registered about five hundred degrees celsius degrees fahrenheit but a few locations were two hundred degrees hotter possibly indicating current volcanic activity the probes also found that the clouds over the poles were five to eight kilometers three to miles lower than at the equator in contrast the polar air above sixty kilometers thirty six miles altitude was five to twenty degrees warmer than the equatorial atmosphere at similar heights when the main mapping mission ended in july of there were plans for at least one of the veneras to radar image the surface at more southernly latitudes unfortunately this idea did not come to pass as the orbiters may not have possessed enough attitude control gas to perform the operation venera and ceased transmission in march of leaving the soviet institute of radiotechnology and electronics with six hundred kilometers miles of radar data tape to sort into an atlas of twenty seven maps of the northern hemisphere of venus venus by balloon for years the thick atmosphere of venus had been a tempting target to scientists who wished to explore the planet s mantle of air with balloon borne instruments professor jacques blamont of the french space agency centre national d etudes spatiales cnes had proposed such an idea as far back as only to have a joint french soviet balloon mission canceled in nevertheless late in the year such dreams would eventually come true when two proton rockets were sent skyward on december and the soviet union provided western observers with the first clear full views of the booster which had been launching every soviet venus probe since this was but one of many firsts for the complex mission the unmanned probes launched into space that december were named vega and a contraction of the words venera and gallei gallei being the russian word for halley not only did the spacecraft have more than one mission to perform they also had more than one celestial objective to explore namely the comet halley this famous periodic traveler was making its latest return to the inner regions of the solar system since its last visit in since it was widely believed that comets are the icy remains from the formation of the solar system five billion years ago scientists around the world gave high priority to exploring one of the few such bodies which actually come close to earth most comets linger in the cold and dark outer fringes of the solar system some like halley are perturbed by various forces and fall in towards the sun where they circle for millennia spewing out ice and debris for millions of kilometers from the warmth of each solar encounter the soviet union along with the european space agency esa and japan s institute of space and astronautical science isas did not wish to miss out on this first opportunity in human history to make a close examination of halley the esa would be using the cylindrical giotto probe to make a dangerously close photographic flyby of the comet while japan s first deep space craft sakigake pioneer and suisei comet would view halley from a much safer distance scientists in the united states also desired to study the comet from the vantage of a space probe at one time envisioning a vessel powered by solar sails or ion engines however government budget cuts to nasa canceled the american efforts the u s would have to make do primarily with earth based observations and the sharing of data from other nations though an instrument named the dust counter and mass analyzer ducma designed by chicago university professor john simpson was added on the soviet mission in may of the soviets answer to halley were the vegas instead of building an entirely new craft for the mission the soviets decided to modify their venera bus design to encounter the comet while performing an advanced venus mission along the way as vega and reached venus the buses would drop off one lander balloon each and use the mass of the shrouded planet to swing them towards comet halley much as the u s probe mariner used venus to flyby mercury eleven years earlier the soviet craft would then head on to halley helping to pinpoint the location of the comet s erupting nucleus for the giotto probe to dive in only kilometers miles away in march of as planned the two vegas arrived at venus in june of vega released its payload first on the ninth day of the month the lander making a two day descent towards the planet the craft touched the upper atmosphere on the morning of june sixty one kilometers miles above the venerean surface a small container was released by the lander which produced a parachute at kilometers miles altitude thus the first balloon probe ever to explore venus had successfully arrived one kilometer after the opening of the parachute helium gas was pumped into the teflon coated plastic balloon inflating it to a diameter of meters feet dangling on a tether thirteen meters feet below was the instrument package properly known as an aerostat the top part of the kilogram pound aerostat consisted of a cone which served as an antenna and tether attachment point to the balloon beneath it was the transmitter electronics and instruments connected at the bottom was a nephelometer for measuring cloud particles the aerostat was painted with a special white finish to keep at bay the corroding mist of sulfuric acid which permeated the planet s atmosphere the vega balloon was dropped into the night side of venus just north of the equator scientists were concerned that the gas bag would burst in the heat of daylight so they placed it in the darkened hemisphere to give the craft as much time as possible to return data this action necessitated that the landers come down in the dark as well effectively removing the camera systems used on previous missions the author wonders though if they could have used floodlights similar to the ones attached to venera and in when soviet scientists had thought the planet s surface was enshrouded in a perpetual twilight due to the permanently thick cloud cover the first balloon transmitted for hours right into the day hemisphere before its lithium batteries failed covering kilometers miles the threat of bursting in the day heat did not materialize the vega balloon was stationed at a kilometer mile altitude after dropping ballast at fifty kilometers thirty miles for this was considered the most active of the three main cloud layers reported by pioneer venus in indeed the balloon was pushed across the planet at speeds up to kilometers miles per hour strong vertical winds bobbed the craft up and down two to three hundred meters to feet through most of the journey the layer s air temperature averaged forty degrees celsius degrees fahrenheit and pressure was a mere earth atmosphere the nephelometer could find no clear regions in the surrounding clouds early in the first balloon s flight the vega lander was already headed towards the venerean surface both landers were equipped with a soil drill and analyzer similar to the ones carried on venera and in however vega would become unable to report the composition of the ground at its landing site in rusalka planitia the mermaid plain north of aphrodite terra while still ten to fifteen minutes away from landing a timer malfunction caused the drill to accidentally begin its programmed activity sixteen kilometers miles above the surface there was neither any way to shut off the instrument before touchdown nor reactivate it after landing this was unfortunate not only for the general loss of data but also for the fact that most of venus was covered with such smooth low level lava plains and had never before been directly examined nevertheless the surface temperature and pressure was calculated at degrees celsius degrees fahrenheit and earth atmospheres respectively during the lander s minutes of ground transmissions a large amount of background infrared radiation was also recorded at the site as had been done when the drills and cameras on venera and had failed in december of the soviets focused on the data returned during the lander s plunge through the atmosphere the french soviet malachite mass spectrometer detected sulfur chlorine and possibly phosphorus it is the sulfur possibly from active volcanoes which gives the venerean clouds their yellowish color the sigma gas chromatograph found that every cubic meter of air between an altitude of and kilometers and miles contained one milligram grain of sulfuric acid the vega data on the overall structure of the cloud decks appeared to be at odds with the information from pioneer venus the case was made even stronger by the fact that vega s results nearly matched its twin the vegas found only two main cloud layers instead of the three reported by the u s probes the layers were three to five kilometers to miles thick at altitudes of and kilometers and miles the clouds persisted like a thin fog until clearing at an altitude of kilometers miles much lower than the pv readings one possibility for the discrepan cies may have been radical structural changes in the venerean air over the last seven years when the lander and balloon finally went silent the last functioning part of the vega mission the flyby bus sailed on for a million kilometer million mile journey around the sun to become the first probe to meet comet halley on march the bus made a kilometer mile pass at the dark and icy visitor before traveling on in interplanetary space the soviets had accomplished their first mission to two celestial bodies with one space vessel on june vega released its lander balloon payload for a two day fall towards venus like its duplicate the vega balloon radioed information back to the twenty antennae tracking it on earth for hours before battery failure on the morning side of the planet during its kilometer mile flight over venus the second balloon entered in a rather still environment which became less so twenty hours into the mission after hours mission time the air became even more turbulent for a further eight hours when the balloon passed over a five kilometer three mile mountain on the continent of aphrodite terra a powerful downdraft pulled the craft kilometers miles towards the surface temperature sensors on the vega balloon reported that the air layer it was moving through was consistently degrees celsius degrees fahrenheit cooler than the area explored by the vega balloon this was corroborated by the vega lander as it passed through the balloon s level no positive indications of lightning were made by either balloon and the second aerostat s nephelometer failed to function the vega lander touched down on the northern edge of aphrodite terra s western arm on the fifteenth of june kilometers miles southeast of vega the lander s resting place was smoother than thought indicating either a very ancient and worn surface or a relatively young one covered in fresh lava the soil drill was in working order and reported a rock type known as anorthosite troctolite rare on earth but present in luna s highlands this rock is rich in aluminum and silicon but lacking in iron and magnesium a high degree of sulfur was also present in the soil the air around vega measured degrees celsius degrees fahrenheit and earth atmospheres essentially a typical day or night on venus far above the vega lander its carrier bus sped past venus at a distance of kilometers miles and followed its twin to comet halley making a closer flyby on march at just kilometers miles both probes helped to reveal that the comet is a very dark and irregular shaped mass about fourteen kilometers miles across rotating once every hours give or take three hours since both vega craft were still functioning after their halley encounters soviet scientists considered an option to send the probes to other celestial objects one prime target was the near earth planetoid adonis which vega could pass at a distance of six million kilometers million miles sadly the soviets had to back out on the opportunity to become the first nation to fly a spacecraft past a planetoid when it was discovered that there was not enough maneuvering fuel in the probe to reach adonis as planned vega and were quietly shut down in early future plans diverted the impressive vega mission had given some scientists numerous ideas and hope for even more ambitious expeditions to the second world from the sun one example was the vesta mission planned for the early s this soviet french collaboration called for the launch of multiple probes on a single proton rocket in either or the craft would first swing by venus and drop off several landers and balloon probes the aerostats would be designed to survive in the planet s corrosive atmosphere for up to one month a large improvement over the vega balloons two days the mission would then head out to investigate several planetoids and comets including a possible landing on vesta thus the mission name the most reflective main belt planetoid as seen from earth unfortunately for venus exploration plans began to change in the soviet union in the soviets decided to reroute the vesta mission to the red planet mars instead of venus keeping the comet and planetoid aspects intact by this time in the soviet space program interest was focusing on mars already under construction was an entirely new probe design called phobos two members of this class were planned to leave earth in and orbit mars the next year phobos and would then place the first instruments on mars largest moon phobos all this was a prelude to even more advanced mars expeditions including balloon probes rovers soil sample return craft and eventually human explorers in the early twenty first century the environment of venus was just too hostile for any serious consideration of human colonization in the near future but things began to look bleak for soviet venus and mars exploration both phobos probes failed to complete their missions one losing contact on the way to the red planet in and the other going silent in mars orbit just one week before the planned moon landing in march of in a plan was devised for a venus orbiter to drop eight to ten penetrators around the planet in several years later the mission launch date was moved to the year and has now been put on indefinite hold no other official soviet missions to venus have since been put forth a sad commentary after twenty five years of continuous robotic exploration of the planet during the late s a drastic political and economic change was taking over the soviet union president mikhail gorbachev began to open up his nation to the benefits of increased cooperation with the rest of the nations particularly those in the west while the culture became less oppressive than in the past the economy was taking a very rough ride as it also underwent the effects of a free market these effects hit everywhere including the space program missions at all levels were cut back the soviets began making almost desperate attempts to cooperate with other space faring nations either to keep their remaining programs alive or just to make money in early it was reported that the soviets were offering for sale several fully equipped veneras they had in storage for the price of million dollars each an incredibly low price for any planetary probe no nation took them up on the bargain meanwhile the united states was gearing up for new venus missions of their own magellan and galileo the u s reactivated their long dormant planetary exploration with the launch of the space shuttle atlantis on may aboard the shuttle was the magellan spacecraft a combination of spare parts from other u s probes designed to make the most detailed and complete radar mapping of venus in history when magellan reached the second world in august of it would be able to map almost the entire planet down to a resolution of meters feet surpassing the abilities of venera and in the interim another american probe was launched from a space shuttle which would make a quick flyby of venus on its way to orbit the giant planet jupiter in on october the shuttle atlantis released its second unmanned planetary probe into space named galileo after the famous italian astronomer who discovered the probe s primary target s major moons in in the absence of a powerful enough booster to send galileo on a direct flight to the jovian planet the probe was sent around venus and earth several times to build up enough speed to reach jupiter as a result venus became galileo s first planetary goal in february of the probe radioed back images of the planet s swirling clouds and further indications of lightning in that violent atmosphere on the drawing boards with the incredible success of magellan in the last few years new plans have been laid out for further journeys to venus scien tists in the u s have talked to space scientists in the former soviet union now the commonwealth of independent states since january of a cooperative effort to launch new venera lander missions within in the next decade japan india and the esa have also considered their own venus missions in the next few decades in february of nasa came up with several new venus projects as part of their discovery program for launching inexpensive probes throughout the solar system for venus two missions were selected for further study a venus multiprobe mission involving the landing of fourteen small probes over one hemisphere to measure winds air temperature and pressure and the venus composition probe designed to study venus atmosphere while descending through the thick air with the aid of a parachute much as the soviets had done since final project decisions will be made in humans on venus will a human ever be able to stand on the surface of venus at present the lead melting temperatures and crushing air pressure would be threatening to any earth life not protected in something even tougher than a venera lander plans have been looked into changing the environment of venus itself into something more like earth s however it should be noted that any such undertaking will require the removal of much of the thick carbon dioxide atmosphere a major reduction in surface heat and the ability to speed up the planet s rotation rate to something a bit faster than once every earth days such a project may take centuries if not millennia in the meantime efforts should be made to better understand venus as its exists today we still have yet to fully know how a world so seemingly similar to earth in many important ways became instead such a deadly place will earth ever suffer this fate perhaps venus holds the answers such answers may best be found through international cooperation including the nation which made the first attempts to lift the cloudy veils from venus bibliography barsukov v l senior editor venus geology geochemistry and geophysics research results from the u s s r university of arizona press tucson beatty j kelly and andrew chaikin editors the new solar system cambridge university press and sky publishing corp cambridge massachusetts burgess eric venus an errant twin columbia university press new york burrows william e exploring space voyages in the solar system and beyond random house inc new york chaisson eric and steve mcmillan astronomy today prentice hall inc englewood cliffs new jersey gatland kenneth the illustrated encyclopedia of space technology salamander books new york greeley ronald planetary landscapes allen and unwin inc winchester massachusetts hart douglas the encyclopedia of soviet spacecraft exeter books new york hartmann william k moons and planets third edition wadsworth publishing company belmont california harvey brian race into space the soviet space programme ellis howood limited chichester england henbest nigel the planets portraits of new worlds viking penguin books ltd harmondsworth middlesex england johnson nicholas l soviet space programs volume science and technology series american astronautical society univelt inc san diego california johnson nicholas l the soviet year in space teledyne brown engineering colorado springs colorado lang kenneth r and charles a whitney wanderers in space exploration and discovery in the solar system cambridge university press new york magellan the unveiling of venus jpl march murray bruce michael c malin and ronald greeley earthlike planets surfaces of mercury venus earth moon mars w h freeman and company san francisco california murray bruce journey into space the first three decades of space exploration w w norton and company new york newcott william venus revealed national geographic magazine volume number washington d c february nicks oran w far travelers the exploring machines nasa sp washington d c oberg james edward new earths restructuring earth and other planets a meridian book new american library inc new york robertson donald f venus a prime soviet objective parts spaceflight volume numbers british interplanetary society bis london england may june smith arthur planetary exploration thirty years of unmanned space probes patrick stephens ltd wellingborough northamp tonshire england voyage through the universe the near planets by the editors of time life books inc alexandria virginia wilson andrew jane s solar system log jane s publishing inc new york about the author larry klaes ejasa editor is the recipient of the asa s meritorious service award for his work as editor of the ejasa since its founding in august of larry also teaches a course on basic astronomy at the concord carlisle adult and community education program in massachusetts larry is the author of the following ejasa articles the one dream man robert h goddard rocket pioneer august stopping space and light pollution september the rocky soviet road to mars october astronomy and the family may the soviets and venus part february the soviets and venus part march the electronic journal of the astronomical society of the atlantic april vol no copyright c asa
sci.space	re command loss timer re galileo update having read in the past about the fail safe mechanisms on spacecraft i had assumed that the command loss timer had that sort of function however i always find disturbing the oxymoron of a no op command that does something if the command changes the behavior or status of the spacecraft it is not a no op command of course this terminology comes from a jet propulsion laboratory which has nothing to do with jet propulsion jim cobban jcobban bnr ca phone bnr ltd bnrgate bnr ca bcars jcobban fax
sci.space	re surviving large accelerations amruth laxman al andrew cmu edu writes humans and this was published in have already withstood accelerations of g all this is very long winded but here s my question finally are g accelerations in fact humanly tolerable with the aid of any mechanical devices of course lpham eis calstate edu lan pham writes are you sure g is the right number as far as i know pilots are blackout in dives that exceed g g g seems to be out of human tolerance would anybody clarify this please actually both numbers are correct the difference is in the direction of the acceleration for pilots accelerations tend to be transverse to the direction you re facing pulling out from a steep dive the acceleration will force blood toward your feet for instance in this case you can only put up with about g s even with a pressure suit the record for acceleration though is measured along the direction you re facing for lack of a better term as i recall this record was set in rocket sleds back in the s and was about g s or so eric seale seale pogo den mmc com
sci.space	re space station redesign jsc alternative in apr tm lerc nasa gov dbm tm lerc nasa gov david b mckissock writes option a low cost modular approach human tended capability as opposed to the old ssf sexist term of man tended capability option b space station freedom derived man tended capability griffin has not yet adopted non sexist language option c single core launch station i ll vote for anything where they don t feel constrained to use stupid and ugly pc phrases to replace words like manned if they think they need to do that they re more than likely engaging in politics and public relations as usual rather than seriously wanting to actually get into space so that eliminates option a from the running what do they call a manned station in option c i m actually about half serious about that people should be more concerned with grammatical correctness and actually getting a working station than they are with political correctness of terminology insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
sci.space	re surviving large accelerations lpham eis calstate edu lan pham writes in answer to amruth laxman are you sure g is the right number as far as i know pilots are blackout in dives that exceed g g g seems to be out of human tolerance would anybody clarify this please lan apart from the fact that you get g in the pull out not the dive that figure is about right for sustained g no protection the duration of g it s rate of onset body position and support aids are all critical parts of the equation i remember one note about instrumented gridiron players recording peaks about g stapp the aviation doctor either by accident or design took a short period g in a rocket sled decelleration eye balls out against a standard s harness it had to be short calculate the stopping time even from mph at that g a bang seat can get up to about g and you d better be sitting straight find the book by martin bakers human guinea pig to hear how bad it can get if the rate of onset is too high a reclining position and a good g suit can keep a pilot functioning at around g a flotation tank should be a good bet since you can treat the body as a fluid and high pressure situations are not new anyone have any figures ray fairfield fairfiel zeus usq edu au
sci.space	historic shuttle flights would someone please send me a list of the historic space flights i am not looking for a list of all flights just the ones in which something monumental happened or better yet is there an ftp site with the list of all shuttle flights thanks if you helped vamwendt upei ca
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they in article steinly apr topaz ucsc edu steinly topaz ucsc edu steinn sigurdsson writes in article radsr att access digex net prb access digex com pat writes what evidence indicates that gamma ray bursters are very far away their distribution is very isotropic and the intensity distribution crudely speaking indicates we re seeing an edge to the distribution how can you tell the difference between an intensity distribution which is due to an edge in the spatial distribution and an intensity distribution which is due an a sharp dropoff of intrinsic luminosities below a certain threshold could you describe roughly what the intensity distribution is like
sci.space	rocket launch observed a bright light phenomenon was observed in the eastern finland on april at ut two people saw a bright luminous pillar shaped phenomenon in the low eastern horizont near mikkeli the head of the pillar was circular the lower part was a little winding it was like a monster they told they were little frightened soon the yellowish pillar became enlarged a bright spot like the sun was appeared in the middle of the phenomenon at last the light landed behind the nearby forest now there was only luminous trails in the sky which were visible till morning sunrise the same phenomenon was observed also by jaakko kokkonen in lappeenranta at ut he saw a luminous yellowish trail in the low northeastern horizont the altitude of the trail was only about degrees soon the trail began to grow taller a loop was appeared in the head of the trail it was like a spoon this lasted only seconds now the altitude was about five degress above horizont he noted a bright spot at the upper stage of loop the spot was at magnitude the loop became enlarged and the spot was now visible in the middle of the loop a cartwheel shaped trail was appeared round the bright spot after a minute the spot disappeared and only fuzzy trails were only visible in the low horizont luminous trails were still visible at ut in the morning sky the phenomenon was caused by a russian rocket i don t know if there were satellite launches in plesetsk cosmodrome near arkhangelsk but this may be a rocket experiment too since we have observed over rocket phenomena in finland most of these are rocket experiments military missile tests barium experiments and other chemical releases during these years we have observed satellite launches leo wikholm ursa astronomical association i phone satellite and rocket phenomena sect i fax laivanvarustajankatu c i bbs fin helsinki i inter leo wikholm compart fi finland i
sci.space	solid state vs tube analog davis nicoll sez hmmm i seem to recall that the attraction of solid state record players and radios in the s wasn t better performance but lower per unit cost than vacuum tube systems i d buy that for two reasons the tubes for tv s and radios if you can still find them are usually x or more expensive than comparable transistors also ask any electric guitar enthusiast which type of amp they prefer and they ll tell you tube type since tubes have lower distortion and noise than transistors course most of your electric guitar types just say tubes sound better dude also transistors have the advantage in both waste heat and energy use mainly because of the heaters on the cathodes of the tubes tommy mac tom mcwilliams wk as the radius of vision increases tm ibm cl msu edu hm the circumference of mystery grows
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they in article apr midway uchicago edu pef quads uchicago edu it s enrico palazzo writes from graydon saundrsg qucdn queensu ca if all of these things have been detected in space has anyone looked into possible problems with the detectors that is is there some mechanism cosmic rays whatever that could cause the dector to think it was seeing one of these things graydon that would not explain why widely separated detectors such as on ulysses and pvo and ginga et al would see a burst at the same time in fact be fore batse having this widely separated interplanetary network was the only sure way to locate a random burst with only one detector one cannot locate a burst except to say it s somewhere in the field of view with two detectors one can use the time that the burst is seen in each detector to narrow the location to a thin annulus on the sky with three detectors one gets intersecting annuli giving two possible locations if one of these locations is impossible because say the earth blocked that part of the sky voila you have an error box batse by having detectors of its own can do its own location determination but only to within about degrees would someone at gsfc like david like to comment on the current state of location determination having inde pendent sightings by other detectors helps drive down the uncertainty you did touch on something that you didn t mean to though some believe in a reference that i have somewhere that absorption like features seen in a fraction of grbs can actually be caused by the detector it would be a mean nasty god though that would have a nai crystal act like a gauss neutron star but this is getting too far afield peter peterf oddjob uchicago edu all of this is very valid and very true but to add to this explaniation each individual detector also has a built in fail safe just so the detector does not read the background radiation i e cosmic rays if i remember right the detectors go off about to sigma above the background this is so they don t catch particularly energetic cosmic rays that would normally set it off even with this buffer they still have to throw out something like of the bursts that they do get because of the earth s van allen belts the south atlantic anomaly the sun if i remember right there is either a radar station or a radio station in australia and there are a couple other sources as well jeremy belgarath vax mankato msus edu
sci.space	re new planet kuiper object found james nicoll writes if the new kuiper belt object is called karla the next one should be called smiley no no no the previous one was called smiley qb smiley and fw karla note that neither name is official it seems the discoverers have an aversion to the designation scheme by the way qb can never be known as smiley officially because that moniker has already been assigned to asteroid number
sci.space	kupier object smiley james nicholl sez if the new kuiper belt object is called karla the next one should be called smiley jeff responds unless i m imaging things always a possibility qb the kuiper belt object discovered last year is known as smiley jeff foust days you re from outer space senior planetary science caltech no i m from iowa i only work in jafoust cco caltech edu outer space jeff scn jpl nasa gov from star trek iv the voyage home i wouldn t worry too much about it jeff if you work for jpl then your job is imaging things i know it was a just a typo but i couldn t resist at least i hope it was a typo or my stupid joke is stupider than i intended tommy mac tom mcwilliams wk as the radius of vision increases tm ibm cl msu edu hm the circumference of mystery grows
sci.space	billboards in space from phil g fraering pgf srl cacs usl edu finally this isn t the bronze age please try to remember that there are more human activities than those practiced by the warrior caste the farming caste and the priesthood f baube responds right the profiting caste is blessed by god and may freely blare its presence in the evening twilight steinn sez the priesthood has never quite forgiven the merchants aka profiting caste sic for their rise to power has it if we are looking for evidence of belessed by god ness i d say the ability to blare lights all over the evening sky is about the best evidence you could ever hope to get no wonder the preistly classes are upset tommy mac tom mcwilliams wk as the radius of vision increases tm ibm cl msu edu hm the circumference of mystery grows
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters how energetic could they be in article rgvjsinnbhq senator bedfellow mit edu jfc athena mit edu john f carr writes if gamma ray bursters are extragalactic would absorption from the galaxy be expected how transparent is the galactic core to gamma rays how much energy does a burster put out i know energy depends on distance which is unknown an answer of the form x ergs per megaparsec is ok john carr jfc athena mit edu i had to turn to one of my problem sets that i did in class for this little problem i don t have a calculator but i do have the problem set that we did not too long ago so i ll use that and hope it s what you wanted this is a highly simplified problem with a very simple burst bursts are usually more complex than this example i will use here our burst has a peak flux of e ergs cm sec and a duration of seconds during the frst second of the burst and the last seconds its flux is half of the peak flux it s flux is the peak flux the rest of the time assume that the background flux is e erg cm sec then we had to find the integrated luminosity of the burst for several different spheres r pc oort cloud radius r pc at the edge of the galaxy r pc or the edge of the galactic corona and lastly at a r mpc we integrated the flux over all time to find the fluence then used the old standby formula luminosity pi r fpeak for a radius of pc we found an l around erg sec pretty energetic for close by for the coronal model we found around erg sec and lastly for the cosmological model an l that s what you d call moderately energetic i d say any suggestions about what could put out that much energy in one second jeremy
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky sichase csa lbl gov scott i chase writes in article pgf srl cacs usl edu pgf srl cacs usl edu phil g fraering writes jeff cook ftcollinsco ncr com jeff cook writes people in primitive tribes out in the middle of nowhere as they look up and see a can of budweiser flying across the sky d seen that movie already or one just like it come to think of it they might send someone on a quest to get rid of the dang thing actually the idea like most good ideas comes from jules verne not like most good ideas please people the gods must be crazy in one of his lesser known books i can t remember which one right now the protagonists are in a balloon gondola travelling over africa on their way around the world in the balloon five weeks in a balloon not a good idea unless you have helium verne s protagonists didn t they just got increadibly lucky and yes i knew the title of the movie too just didn t want to start talking about it except to bring up the image of a team of s african bushmen showing up at a launch site with spears and flint knives to stop the launch anyone want to bet on their success in doing so especially since they could probably stop a shuttle launch by sneezing too hard within a couple miles of the launch site phil fraering seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they belgarath vax mankato msus edu writes catalog these tests all show that the bursts have an isotropic distribution evenly spread out in a radial direction and they show signs of homogeneity i e they do not clump in any one direction so unless we are sampling the area inside the disk of the galaxy we are sampling the universe not cool if you want to figure out what the hell caused these things now i suppose you are saying well we stil only may be sampling from inside the disk well not necessarily remember we have what is more or less an interplanetary network of burst detectors with a baseline that goes waaaay out to beyond pluto pioneer so we should be able with all of our detectors de tect some sort of difference in angle from satellite to satellite here s an analogy you see a plane overhead you measure the angle of the plane from the origin of your arbitrary coordinate system one of your friends a mile away sees the same plane and measures the angle from the zero point of his arbitrary system which is the same as yours the two angles are different and you should be able to triangulate the position of your burst and maybe find a source to my knowledge no one has been able to do this uh no these burst detectors are just that burst detectors they have no angular resolution now a network of burst detectors could have angular resolution but we do not have a decent set of different networks at the distances neccesary from each other to determine if they re happening in the oort cloud or not we have one network and trying to make two networks out of it degrades what angular resolution we have phil fraering seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man
sci.space	update back to the moon bill introducing the back to the moon in congress the next step the next key hurdle for the lunar resources data purchase act is introduction of the act in congress at this point many congresspersons have been approached about the bill however for a successful effort to pass the bill we need the best possible congressperson to introduce the bill due to his position as chair of the house committee on space and science congressman george brown is the logical choice he has a long record of support and interest in space development and helped pass the launch services purchase act and the space settlements act there is a small group of activists in southern california who have assisted george brown in his recent re election campaigns we are mobilizing this group to have them tell congressman brown about the back to the moon bill we are also asking pro space constituents to let him know that they care about getting america back to the moon finally there is a good chance that a nationwide alert for space activists to call or write george brown to have him introduce the back to the moon bill may be staged during late spring all this should produce a positive reaction from brown s office as more is known it will be passed on however even if we are successful in getting him to support the bill this alone will not ensure passage of the bill for any bill to become law one of three conditions must exist either the bill must reflect widespread national support for an issue such as extension of unemployment insurance benefits be propelled by high priced lobbyists we re out of luck there or have widespread support within congress due to small but widespread constituent support the latter is the path that we by necessity must choose this means that the introduction of the lunar resources data purchase act must be immediately accompanied by a large number of congresspersons sponsorship of the bill to accomplish this we need activists to ask their congressperson to support the lunar resources data purchase act now to wait until the bill is introduced is simply too late it takes time to have a congressperson s staff review a bill if your congressperson mentions that the bill is not yet introduced please elicit their opinion of the bill as currently written we appreciate all comments on the bill from activists and politicians if you have yet to see the back to the moon bill please request a copy by email please include your u s postal service address or contact your local chapter of the national space society maximus wb
sci.space	re surviving large accelerations in article fairfiel helios fairfiel helios usq edu au raymond fairfield writes lpham eis calstate edu lan pham writes in answer to amruth laxman are you sure g is the right number as far as i know pilots are blackout in dives that exceed g g g seems to be out of human tolerance would anybody clarify this please lan apart from the fact that you get g in the pull out not the dive that figure is about right for sustained g no protection the duration of g it s rate of onset body position and support aids are all critical parts of the equation i remember one note about instrumented gridiron players recording peaks about g stapp the aviation doctor either by accident or design took a short period g in a rocket sled decelleration eye balls out against a standard s harness it had to be short calculate the stopping time even from mph at that g a bang seat can get up to about g and you d better be sitting straight find the book by martin bakers human guinea pig to hear how bad it can get if the rate of onset is too high a reclining position and a good g suit can keep a pilot functioning at around g a flotation tank should be a good bet since you can treat the body as a fluid and high pressure situations are not new anyone have any figures ray fairfield fairfiel zeus usq edu au yes a flotation tank combined with floride breathing water ref the abyss breathing solution i think also the right position of the astronaut and strapping you can probably get much more than gs in an accesloration more like near g or somewhat less saw i book called the time master i thjink that was the title that had some ideas on how fast and all you could go michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	long term space voyanges and effect newsgroup i know that alot of how people think and act in a long distance space project would be much like old tiem explorers sailors hunters and such who spent alot of time alone isolated and alone or in minimal surroundings and sopcial contacts such as the old arctic and antarctic expeditions and such i vote for a later on sci space medicine or similar newsgroup fro the discussion of long term missions into space and there affects on humans and such michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	re true globe who makes it bill xpresso uucp bill vance writes it has been known for quite a while that the earth is actually more pear shaped than globular spherical does anyone make a globe that is accurate as to actual shape landmass configuration long lat lines etc thanks in advance even if they did a globe at a scale that you could fit into your average room or even average hall the deviations you mention would not be visually evident in other words a micrometer would be required to test the fact that the globe was infact pear shaped regards scott scott fisher scott psy uwa oz au ph aus perth local n department of psychology w e university of western australia perth s e s nedlands perth w a v error reboot is a registered trademark of ensoniq corp
sci.space	vandalizing the sky wm hathaway comments i d like to add that some of the protests do not come from a strictly practical consideration of what pollution levels are acceptable for research activities by professional astronomers some of what i would complain about is rooted in aesthetics many readers may never have known a time where the heavens were pristine sacred unsullied by the actions of humans the space between the stars as profoundly black as an abyss can be with full horizons and a pure sky one could look out upon half of all creation at a time none of which had any connection with the petty matters of man any lights were supplied solely by nature uncorruptable by men whole religions were based on mortal man somehow getting up there and becoming immortal as the stars whether by apotheosis or a belief in an afterlife the space age changed all that more on man s effect on the environment but there is still this desire to see a place that man hasn t fouled in some way i think my point about a desire for beauty is valid even if it can t ever be perfectly achieved i agree that the desire for beauty is valid but i think your desire to impose your vision of beauty is not you mention the age old desire to somehow get up there but ignore the beauty of the actual achievment of that vision you mention the beauty of a very dark sky not impeded by the effects of humans but ignore the beauty of the as dark as can be sky that is only visible from space a vision that we or at least our descendents may one day be able to see in part because of efforts that others call ugly one day i hope humans will be able to look out not upon half the heavens with only nature creted lights but upon all of the heavens with no lights if advertising in space can help us reach that goal it is no less beautiful for the way we reach it than the pristine sky of yesteryear or yester century which is totally unreachable one of the original conceptions of beauty in wetsern sculpture was a human form in the effort of striving to reach a goal i don t think there s any reason to believe that modernity has changed that just because it has changed the way we strive btw there are places that people haven t fouled sometimes they make it better tommy mac tom mcwilliams wk as the radius of vision increases tm ibm cl msu edu hm the circumference of mystery grows
sci.space	re new planet kuiper object found tholen galileo ifa hawaii edu dave tholen writes james nicoll writes if the new kuiper belt object is called karla the next one should be called smiley no no no the previous one was called smiley qb smiley and fw karla by the way qb can never be known as smiley officially because that moniker has already been assigned to asteroid number could someone explain where these names come from i m sure there s a perfectly good reason to name a planetoid smiley but i m equally sure that i don t know what that reason is josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find a way or make one attributed to hannibal
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky in c na c news cso uiuc edu george f krumins writes i was suggesting that the minority of professional and amateur astronomers have the right to a dark uncluttered night sky sorry you have a wish for an uncluttered night sky but it isn t a right when you get down to it you actually have no rights that the majority haven t agreed to give you and them in the process it s a common misconception that being born somehow endows you with rights to this that and the other sadly this is not true now if you want to talk about the responsibility that should go with the power to clutter the night sky then that s a different matter greg nicholls vidi nicho vnet ibm com or vici nicho olympus demon co uk veni
sci.space	france spied on by the u s a young french skeptic who reads skeptically the ufo review ovni presence o p sent me the following excerpt from an august issue of this review r g robert galley french minister of defense in answering about the belgian ufo wave o p can you conceive that the u s could allow themselves to send their most modern crafts over foreign territory with the belgian hierarchy ignoring that r g absolutely the best proof which i can give is that some time ago without informing the french authorities the u s based in germany sent a plane to make photos of pierrelatte we followed this plane and after its landing on the ramstein airport colonel x got back the shots of pierrelatte the u s had not informed us there is an important military plant of enrichment of uranium at pierrelatte drome what kind of plane could it be surely not an sr which our planes could not follow and still can t j pharabod
sci.space	ranking of space mailing list about three weeks ago on the space list someone was quoting a source on the relative traffic and rankings of this listserv a figure of th in traffic was given unfortunately i did not clip the message and i would like to know the source of the rankings list if anybody still has that discussion on their disk or knows the source or is the poster himself i d appreciate getting that reference being on the road i have temporarily unsubscribed to the list to cut down mail box stuffing g so please reply via e mail to lek aip org or compuserve com or i won t get your answer larry krumenaker odyssey magazine
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days if re boosting the hst by carrying it with a shuttle would not damage it then why couldn t hst be brought back to earth and the repair job done here is it because two shuttle flights would be required adding to the alredy horrendous expense gruss dr bruce scott the deadliest bullshit is max planck institut fuer plasmaphysik odorless and transparent bds at spl n aug ipp garching mpg de w gibson the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill the campus office for information technology or the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu or
sci.space	mcelwaine s secret messages robert macelwaine sez again larsonian astronomy and physics etc ok i got it actually these message of macelwaine s are coded messages read only the caps and it all comes clear are a few more types of anti matter atoms worth the billion cost don t we have much more important uses for this wasted money another thing to consider is that the primary proposed location in texas has a serious and growing problem with some kind of fire ants eating the insulation off underground cables how much poisoning of the ground and ground water with insecticides will be required to keep the ants out of the supercollider naming the super collider after ronald reagon as proposed is totally absurd if it is built it should be named after a leading particle physicist maybe it s a message telling us what actually happened to the legendary larson perhaps it s a warning that one should not expend too much effort trying to counter macelwaine s postings who can be sure tommy mac tom mcwilliams wk they communicated with the communists tm ibm cl msu edu hm and pacified the pacifists timbuk
sci.space	re lindbergh and the moon was why not give g in article c v lr kxf news cso uiuc edu jbh uxa cso uiuc edu josh hopkins writes re voyages of discovery could you give examples of privately funded ones if you believe the film columbus had substantial private funds when columbus asked the merchant why he put the money in the guy said slightly paraphrased there is faith hope and charity but greater than these is banking gregory bond gnb bby com au burdett buckeridge young ltd melbourne australia knox s is slick fox in sox on knox s box knox s box is very quick plays lots of lsl he s sick apologies to john iron bar mackin
sci.space	re death and taxes was why not give billion to in article apr indyvax iupui edu tffreeba indyvax iupui edu writes so how about this give the winning group i can t see one company or corp doing it a or year moratorium on taxes you are talking about the bozos who can t even manage in november to keep promises about taxes made in october and you expect them to make and keep a year promise like that your faith in the political system is much higher than mine i wouldn t even begin to expect that in australia and we don t have institutionalised corruption like you do gregory bond gnb bby com au burdett buckeridge young ltd melbourne australia knox s is slick fox in sox on knox s box knox s box is very quick plays lots of lsl he s sick apologies to john iron bar mackin
sci.space	re death and taxes was why not give billion to in apr bby com au gregory n bond writes i wouldn t even begin to expect that in australia and we don t have institutionalised corruption like you do wanna bet you must be too young to remember bob askin read the costigan commision report if you want to know about corruption in oz greg nicholls vidi nicho vnet ibm com or vici nicho olympus demon co uk veni
sci.space	what planets are habitable i would appreciate any thoughts on what makes a planet habitable for humans i am making asumptions that life and a similar atmosphere evolve given a range of physical aspects of the planet the question is what physical aspects simply disallow earth like conditions eg temperature range of k to k where temp is purely dependant on dist from the sun and the suns temperature atmospheric presure i know nothing of human tolerance planetary mass again gravity at surface is important how much can human bodies take day after day also how does the mass effect atmosphere i thinking of planets between and times mass of the earth i suppose density should be important as well climate etc does not concern me nor does axial tilt etc etc just the above three factors and how they relate to one another jonathan with fearsome eyes and fiery breath the dragon burnt the girl to death from too late saint george
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they on apr gmt jfc athena mit edu john f carr said jfc if gamma ray bursters are extragalactic would absorption from the jfc galaxy be expected how transparent is the galactic core to gamma jfc rays and later jim batka jbatka desire wright edu said jb so if the r law is incorrect assume jb some unknown material dark matter inhibits gamma ray propagation jb could it be possible that we are actually seeing much less energetic jb events happening much closer to us the even distribution could jb be caused by the characteristic propagation distance of gamma rays jb being shorter then the thickness of the disk of the galaxy well maybe not zero but very little at the typical energies for gamma rays the galaxy is effectively transparent hans bloemen had a review article in ann rev astr astrophys a few years back in which he discusses this in more depth e mail lazio astrosun tn cornell edu t joseph lazio phone icbm deg n deg w cornell knows i exist stop rape
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they in article rbl einnip gap caltech edu palmer cco caltech edu david m palmer writes prb access digex com pat writes what evidence indicates that gamma ray bursters are very far away given the enormous power i was just wondering what if they are quantum black holes or something like that fairly close by why would they have to be at galactic ranges david gives good explaination of the deductions from the isotropic edged distribution to whit they are either part of the universe or part of the oort cloud why couldn t they be earth centred with the edge occuring at the edge of the gravisphere i know there isn t any mechanism for them but there isn t a mechanism for the others either keith harwood
sci.space	re what planets are habitable in article jpg apr holly bnr co uk jpg bnr co uk jonathan p gibbons writes i would appreciate any thoughts on what makes a planet habitable for humans i am making asumptions that life and a similar atmosphere evolve given a range of physical aspects of the planet the question is what physical aspects simply disallow earth like conditions eg temperature range of k to k where temp is purely dependant on dist from the sun and the suns temperature atmospheric presure i know nothing of human tolerance planetary mass again gravity at surface is important how much can human bodies take day after day also how does the mass effect atmosphere i thinking of planets between and times mass of the earth i suppose density should be important as well climate etc does not concern me nor does axial tilt etc etc just the above three factors and how they relate to one another dandridge cole and isaac asimov collaborated on a book titled habitable planets for man i think in it should be available in most good libraries or through inter library loan it answered the questions you ask speculatively of course along with many more that need to be considered in habitability studies length of day for day night temperature variation and agricultural concerns partial pressures of certain unexpected gasses ever hear of xenon narcosis neither did i density of particulates in the atm and their composition ever hear of silicosis not much fun etc climate isn t a global phenomenon and probably needn t concern you but axial tilt ought to it plays a large part in determining the severity of seasonal differences and a lesser but still significant part in determining the speed of prevailing winds doug loss loss husky bloomu edu
sci.space	re what planets are habitable in article c w iyd fs ece cmu edu loss fs ece cmu edu doug loss writes from loss fs ece cmu edu doug loss subject re what planets are habitable date tue apr gmt in article jpg apr holly bnr co uk jpg bnr co uk jonathan p gibbons writes i would appreciate any thoughts on what makes a planet habitable for humans i am making asumptions that life and a similar atmosphere evolve given a range of physical aspects of the planet the question is what physical aspects simply disallow earth like conditions eg temperature range of k to k where temp is purely dependant on dist from the sun and the suns temperature atmospheric presure i know nothing of human tolerance there are people who have adapted to high altitudes in the andes and in tibet i suspect that it took them several generations to make the adaptation because europeans had difficulty making the adaptation they had to send the women to a lower altitude when they were pregnant in order to insure sucessful childbirth planetary mass again gravity at surface is important how much can human bodies take day after day also how does the mass effect atmosphere i thinking of planets between and times mass of the earth i suppose density should be important as well another factor you should consider is the x ray opacity of the atmosphere in case of stellar flares the uv opacity is also important because uv radiation can kill or damage microbes plants and animals climate etc does not concern me nor does axial tilt etc etc just the above three factors and how they relate to one another
sci.space	report on redesign team the following is what they feed to us most has been posted already but there are a number of items not seen here yet redesign activities update following is the weekly status on redesign based on information provided by nasa headquarters the station redesign team srt provided a detailed status report to the advisory committee on the redesign of the space station on april the day long meeting was held in anser facilities in crystal city va topics covered by the srt included a preliminary mission and goals statement for the space station science technology and engineering research the assessment process and the design approach discussions on management options and operations concepts also were held the design teams then presented the three options under study option a modular buildup pete priest presented the a option priest said the team is working to define a station that meets cost goals and has identified three distinct phases of evolution power station human tended and permanent presence the team will define the minimum capability needed to achieve each phase the total cost of each phase and the achievable capability for budget levels the a option uses current or simplified freedom hardware where cost effective and is considering other existing systems such as the so called bus spacecraft the orbiter and spacelab the power station capability could be achieved in flights with freedom photo voltaic modules providing kw of power day shuttle spacelab missions docked to the power station are assumed for this phase human tended capability would be provided by the addition of the u s common module module which adds subsystems and payload racks and docking ports for esa and japanese laboratories day missions with the orbiter docked to the station are assumed for this phase different operation utilization modes are being studied for this phase option b freedom derived mike griffin presented the status of option b activities griffin detailed the evolution of the freedom derived option from initial research capability to human tended capability to permanent human presence capability to two fault tolerance and finally permanent human capability griffin also outlined proposed systems changes to the baseline program with minor changes to the communications and tracking system crew health care system and eclss and a major change to the data management system initial research capability would be achieved with flights to degree inclination flights to degrees and consist of an extended duration orbiter spacelab combination docked to a truss segment with photo voltaic arrays providing kw of power human tended capability would be achieved in flights and add truss segments and the u s lab permanent human presence capability would be achieved in flights with two orbiters providing habitation and assured crew return two fault tolerance achieved in flights would build out the other section of truss with another set of pv modules thermal control and propulsion systems the freedom derived configuration could achieve an international complete state with flights three more flights to bring up the habitat module a third pv array and two assured crew return vehicles acrv would complete the permanent human capability with international stage griffin told the redesign advisory committee that eliminating hardware would not by itself meet budget guidelines for the freedom derived option major reductions or deferrals must occur in other areas including program management contractor non hardware early utilization and operations costs he said option c singe launch core station chet vaughn presented option c the single launch core station concept a shuttle external tank and solid rocket boosters would be used to launch the station into orbit shuttle main engines would be mounted to the tail of the station module for launch and jettisoned after et separation the module feet in diameter and feet long would provide cubic feet of pressured volume separated into decks connected by a centralized passageway seven berthing ports would be located at various places on the circumference of the module to place the international modules and other elements this can would have two fixed photo voltaic arrays producing approximately kw of power flying in a solar interial attitude in his closing comments to the redesign advisory committee bryan o connor said a design freeze would be established for the options on april so that detailed costing of the options can begin the next meeting with the redesign advisory committee will be may russian consultants arrive in u s a delegation of russian space experts arrived in the u s on april and briefings to the srt by members of the russian team began on the nd the group includes russian space agency general director y m koptev and v a yatsenko also of the rsa others on the team include representatives from the ministry of defense the design bureau salyut the institute of biomedical problems the ministry of foreign affairs npo energia and tsnijmash the russian team briefed the srt on environmental control and life support system docking systems the proton launch vehicle mir operations and utilization and the soyuz tm spacecraft the russian consultants are available to the srt to assess the capabilities of the mir space station and the possible use of mir and other russian capabilities and systems as part of the space station redesign they will be available to the srt through may management and operations review continues work continued in the srt subgroups the management group under dr walt brooks is working to develop a family of options that solve the current problems and build a foundation for the transition to development and operations various management options have been developed including lead center with the center director in the programmatic chain of command host center with the program manager reporting directly to an associate administrator skunk works dedicated program office with a small dedicated co located hand picked program office combine space station with shuttle with the space station becoming an element of the current program major tune up to current organization with current contracts and geographical distribution maintained but streamlined the operations group under dr john cox is building on the work of the operations phase assessment team lead by gene kranz of nasa jsc which had already begun a comprehensive review of operations and had concluded in its preliminary results that significant cost reductions are possible as part of its work the operations group has identified teams of agency experts to develop detailed evaluations of each design in the areas of assembly and operations utilization maintenance and logistics and testing and ground operations what s in the week ahead the design support teams will provide a comprehensive status of their option to the station redesign team on monday and tuesday at which point the design will be frozen to begin the detailed cost assessment also this week the team will begin preparing for the next round of discussions with the redesign advisory committee to be held may dr shea steps down dr joe shea stepped down as director of the station redesign team on april and bryan o connor will take over the activities of the team dr shea submitted his resignation as assistant deputy administrator for space station analysis but will continue to serve as a special advisory to nasa administrator goldin and be available to consult with the srt mr goldin accepted the resignation so that a request from dr shea to reduce his workload could be accommodated key milestones the key dates for the srt as they are currently being carried on the schedule are april design freeze on options for costing april design support team present selected options to srt may status report to redesign advisory committee may interim report by redesign advisory committee june final report to redesign advisory committee oct cancellation just my opinion ac
sci.space	re new planet kuiper object found in article c t e hb news cso uiuc edu jbh uxa cso uiuc edu josh hopkins writes could someone explain where these names come from i m sure there s a perfectly good reason to name a planetoid smiley but i m equally sure that i don t know what that reason is read john le carre s tinker tailor soldier spy the honorable schoolboy or smiley s people jan
sci.space	re death and taxes was why not give billion to in article apr bby com au gnb baby bby com au gregory n bond writes in article apr indyvax iupui edu tffreeba indyvax iupui edu writes so how about this give the winning group i can t see one company or corp doing it a or year moratorium on taxes you are talking about the bozos who can t even manage in november to keep promises about taxes made in october and you expect them to make and keep a year promise like that we want to give lawyers something to do in the st cen don t we your faith in the political system is much higher than mine i wouldn t even begin to expect that in australia and we don t have institutionalised corruption like you do oh i bet you do they are probably just better at it than our crooks gregory bond gnb bby com au burdett buckeridge young ltd melbourne australia knox s is slick fox in sox on knox s box knox s box is very quick plays lots of lsl he s sick apologies to john iron bar mackin tom freebairn we came we saw we went home some early th cen baseball player anybody know who or why definitly e mail stuff
sci.space	re solid state vs tube analog in article c k ba cs cmu edu tm msu edu tom writes also ask any electric guitar enthusiast which type of amp they prefer and they ll tell you tube type since tubes have lower distortion and noise than transistors course most of your electric guitar types just say tubes sound better dude of course they then turn up the reverb the gain add in the analog delay line and the fuzz box i d think they wouldn t notice the distortion oh i forgot the phase shifters also transistors have the advantage in both waste heat and energy use mainly because of the heaters on the cathodes of the tubes ah but how do they compare to mechanical systems pat
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky nicho vnet ibm com greg stewart nicholls writes in c na c news cso uiuc edu george f krumins writes i was suggesting that the minority of professional and amateur astronomers have the right to a dark uncluttered night sky sorry you have a wish for an uncluttered night sky but it isn t a right when you get down to it you actually have no rights that the majority haven t agreed to give you and them in the process it s a common misconception that being born somehow endows you with rights to this that and the other sadly this is not true now if you want to talk about the responsibility that should go with the power to clutter the night sky then that s a different matter greg nicholls vidi nicho vnet ibm com or vici nicho olympus demon co uk veni according to this reasoning there are no rights at least none that i can think of let s see do i have a right to unpolluted air no because the majority drive cars and use goods that create air pollution in the manufacturing process do i have the right to clean water i guess not by the same reasoning i could go on with these examples for a long time look at nazi germany because of the majority jews homosexuals blacks and others that were different had no rights in fact they were terrorized imprisoned and slaughtered in this country did blacks have the right to be free from slavery i guess not because the majority said that slavery was good for them i think that a right has a moral imperative if a law imposed by the majority is immoral one should not follow it in fact one should do everything in his her power to stop it of course that doesn t mean that i would lose all common sense to break the law just because i thought it was immoral i pay my federal income tax even though i am morally opposed to the u s government taking my money and spending it on weapons of mass destruction and terrorism this is precisely the point i am trying to make we should persude people by logic pointing out that it is in their self interest to let all have equal rights in all aspects of life including adequate housing food and medical care i just happen to think that for a full life the aesthetic of beauty and joy is also necessary that is why i consider an uncluttered night sky a right have you ever been out in the desert away from local lights and most people the sky is dark and transparent the milky way is ablaze with more detail than you thought possible the beauty and wonder takes your breath away now imagine you live in the worst ghetto say in l a due to light pollution you have never seen a dark sky you might in fact never not in your whole life ever see the majesty of the night sky every where around you you see squalor and through your life runs a thread of dispair what is there to live for i admit these two scenarios are extreme examples but i have seen both i for one need dreams and hopes and yes beauty as a reason for living that is why i consider an uncluttered night sky a right george george krumins the serpent and the rainbow gfk uxa cso uiuc edu pufferfish observatory o
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days in article apr samba oit unc edu bruce scott launchpad unc edu bruce scott writes if re boosting the hst by carrying it with a shuttle would not damage it then why couldn t hst be brought back to earth and the repair job done here reboost may not be a problem if they have enough fuel if they don t do a reboost this time they will definitely have to do one on the next servicing mission but try to land a shuttle with that big huge telescope in the back and you could have problems the shuttle just isn t designed to land with that much weight in the payload is it because two shuttle flights would be required adding to the alredy horrendous expense of course that is a concern too and the loss of science during the time that it is on the ground plus a fear that if it comes down some big wig might not allow it to go back up but the main concern i believe is the danger of the landing just to add another bad vibe they also increase the risk of damaging an instrument finally this is a chance for nasa astronanuts to prove they could build and service a space station hubble was designed for in flight servicing bringing the telescope down to my understanding was considered even very recently but all these factors contribute to the decision to do it the way it was planned in the beginning gruss dr bruce scott the deadliest bullshit is max planck institut fuer plasmaphysik odorless and transparent bds at spl n aug ipp garching mpg de w gibson rob rob douglas space san martin drive ai software engineer telescope baltimore md usa advance planning systems branch science phone internet rdouglas stsci edu institute fax disclaimer type thingie these opinions are mine unless of course they fall under the standard intellectual property guidelines but with my intellect i doubt it besides if it was useful intellectual property do you think i would type it in here rob douglas space san martin drive ai software engineer telescope baltimore md usa advance planning systems branch science phone
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky newsgroups sci astro sci space subject re vandalizing the sky my apologies if this is a re post i submitted it on friday but got a message that my post might not have gone out considering the confusing spitting contest over rights there are too inalienable rights damn it the majority can be just as destructive of liberty as a despot i suspect that my post did not get out of my site i ain t saying that dark skies are included in these rights although we can only preserve any rights by exercising them anyway here are my thoughts on this i d like to add that some of the protests do not come from a strictly practical consideration of what pollution levels are acceptable for research activities by professional astronomers some of what i would complain about is rooted in aesthetics many readers may never have known a time where the heavens were pristine sacred unsullied by the actions of humans the space between the stars as profoundly black as an abyss can be with full horizons and a pure sky one could look out upon half of all creation at a time none of which had any connection with the petty matters of man any lights were supplied solely by nature uncorruptable by men whole religions were based on mortal man somehow getting up there and becoming immortal as the stars whether by apotheosis or a belief in an afterlife the space age changed all that the effect of the first sputniks and echo etc on this view could only happen once to see a light crossing the night sky and know it was put there by us puny people is still impressive and the sense of size one gets by assimilating the scales involved is also awesome even if the few hundreds or thousands of miles involved is still dwarfed by the rest of the universe but there is still a hunger for the pure beauty of a virgin sky yes i know aircraft are almost always in sight i have to live in a very populated area miles from an international airport currently where light pollution on the ground is ghastly the impact of humans is so extreme here virtually no place exists that has not been shaped sculpted modified trashed or whipped into shape by the hands of man in some places the only life forms larger than bacteria are humans cockroaches and squirrels or rats i visited some friends up in the appalacian mountains one weekend getting away from it all paved roads indoor plumbing malls and it felt good for a while then i quickly noticed the hollow was directly under the main flight path into dulles miles to the east their security light didn t help matters much either but i ve heard the artic wilderness gets lots of high air traffic so i know the skies are rarely perfect but there is still this desire to see a place that man hasn t fouled in some way i mean they ve been trying this forever like concerning tesla s idea to banish night wow i don t watch commercial television but i can imagine just how disgusting beer truck or hemmorrhoid ointment advertisements would be if seen up so high if ya gotta make a buck on it displaying products in heaven at least consider the reactions from those for whom the sky is a last beautiful refuge from the baseness of modern life to be open about this though i have here my listing of the passage of hst in the evening sky for this weekend tonight friday at p m edt it will reach an altitude of degrees on the local meridian from baltimore vicinity i ll be trying to see it if i can it is my mealticket after all so i suppose i could be called an elitist for supporting this intrusion on the night sky while complaining about billboards proposed by others be that as it may i think my point about a desire for beauty is valid even if it can t ever be perfectly achieved regards wm hathaway baltimore md p s added tuesday this again is not a rights vs reality tome just a warning that someone into destroying beauty had better know that other people may not accept it without a complaint
sci.space	re command loss timer re galileo update in article apr bnr ca jcobban bnr ca jim cobban writes having read in the past about the fail safe mechanisms on spacecraft i had assumed that the command loss timer had that sort of function however i always find disturbing the oxymoron of a no op command that does something if the command changes the behavior or status of the spacecraft it is not a no op command using your argument the noop operation in a computer isn t a noop since it causes the pc to be incremented of course this terminology comes from a jet propulsion laboratory which has nothing to do with jet propulsion of course the complaint comes from someone who hasn t a clue as to what he s talking about carl j lydick internet carl sol gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol carl disclaimer hey i understand vaxen and vms that s what i get paid for my understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level or below so unless what i m saying is directly related to vax vms don t hold me or my organization responsible for it if it is related to vax vms you can try to hold me responsible for it but my organization had nothing to do with it
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days in article apr samba oit unc edu bruce scott launchpad unc edu bruce scott writes if re boosting the hst by carrying it with a shuttle would not damage it then why couldn t hst be brought back to earth and the repair job done here the forces and accelerations involved in doing a little bit of orbital maneuvering with hst aboard are much smaller than those involved in reentry landing and re launch the oms engines aren t very powerful they don t have to be svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re long term space voyanges and effect newsgroup in article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes i vote for a later on sci space medicine or similar newsgroup fro the discussion of long term missions into space and there affects on humans and such why bother with a new newsgroup if you want to discuss the subject start discussing it if there is enough traffic to annoy the rest of us we will let you know and then it will be time for a new newsgroup svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re what counntries do space surveillance in article bd de cpva saic com thomsonal cpva saic com writes stuff deleted this leads to the more general question do yet other people than the us russia and japan do space surveillance and if so how and why allen thomson saic mclean va usa the french spot is an example that comes to mind although the company name escapes me at the moment sells images world wide you can bet your last dollar franc that the french gov t gets first dibs i remember a few years ago about the time spot was launched i was speaking to my dad an usaf officer about this and that and i happend to mention spot i think we were talking about technology utilization he just about went ballistic he wanted to know how i knew about spot and just what i knew i guess that space surveillance is such a sensitive topic in the air force that he couldn t believe that i would read about such a system in the popular press ie av week mark mark l littlefield intelligent systems department internet mll aio jsc nasa gov ussnail lockheed engineering and sciences nasa rd mc c houston tx
sci.space	tsniimach enterprise from wales larrison ofa fidonet org commercial space news space technology investor number another pegasus competitor is announced tsniimach enterprise is described as a ex military establishment focusing on aerodynamics and thermal protection of spacecraft and which has participated in the development of the buran shuttle system they are located near the npo energia facility in kaliningrad outside of moscow if this facility is in kaliningrad this is not near moscow it is in fact the ex east prussian konigsberg now a russian enclave on the baltic coast it is served by ships and rail and the intrepid traveller in europe would find it accessible and might even want to try to arrange a tour fred baube tm in times of intellectual ferment baube optiplan fi advantage to him with the intellect include disclaimer h most fermented may paris it s retrospective time p s i m quite glad that a couple of people stated quite eloquently the aesthetic natural objections to the space billboard
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky i didn t want to quote all the stuff that s been said recently i just wanted to add a point the whole question of a right to a dark sky revolves around the definition of a right moral rights and natural rights are all well and good but as far as i can see a right is whatever you or someone representing you can enforce in most civilizations the government or the church or both defines what the rights of the citizens are and then enforces those rights for them here in the u s the constitution provides a bill of rights from which most if not all legal rights are considered to derive i m sure that most other countries have comparable documents if you can persuade a court that you have a right to a dark sky derived in some manner from the bill of rights in the u s you can prevent maybe these billboards from being launched to keep anyone in the world from launching then gets into international law and the international court of justice correct name in the hague something i know little about doug loss loss husky bloomu edu
sci.space	vandalizing the sky in space digest v hathaway stsci edu writes about the protests over proposals to put a giant billboard into orbit i d like to add that some of the protests do not come from a strictly practical consideration of what pollution levels are acceptable for research activities by professional astronomers some of what i would complain about is rooted in aesthetics regards wm hathaway baltimore md mr hathaway s post is right on the money if a little lengthy in short an orbiting billboard would be trash in the same way that a billboard on the earth is trash billboards make a place look trashy that is why there are laws in many places prohibiting their use the light pollution complaints are mainly an attempt to find some tangible reason to be against orbiting billboards because people don t feel morally justified to complain on the grounds that these things would defile the beauty of the sky regular orbiting spacecraft are not the same in this respect since they are more like abstract entities but a billboard in space would be like a beer can somebody had thrown on the side of the road just trash dale m greer whose opinions are not to be confused with those of the center for space sciences university of texas at dallas utspan utadnx utdssa greer or greer utdcss utdallas edu let machines multiply doing the work of many but let the people have no use for them lao tzu
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky come on this is sci space an orbital billboard won t do any permanent damage in a few years it will reenter and probably hit los angles anyway the boost to space commerce orbital advertising might provide might speed the day it is possible for those with a yen for dark skies to get some really dark skies beyond the dust producing the zodiacal light now if they wanted to paint the cocacola symbol on the moon in lampblack that would give me pause it would be very difficult to reverse such a widespread application of pigments thomas clarke institute for simulation and training university of central fl research parkway suite orlando fl fax clarke acme ucf edu
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they in article apr tpl k tplrd tpl oz au keithh tplrd tpl oz au keith harwood writes in article rbl einnip gap caltech edu palmer cco caltech edu david m palmer writes prb access digex com pat writes what evidence indicates that gamma ray bursters are very far away given the enormous power i was just wondering what if they are quantum black holes or something like that fairly close by why would they have to be at galactic ranges david gives good explaination of the deductions from the isotropic edged distribution to whit they are either part of the universe or part of the oort cloud why couldn t they be earth centred with the edge occuring at the edge of the gravisphere i know there isn t any mechanism for them but there isn t a mechanism for the others either what on earth is the gravisphere anyway before it s decay the pioneer venus orbiter had a gamma ray detector as does ulysses they detect the brightest bursts that the earth orbit detectors do so the bursts are at least at oort cloud distances in principle four detectors spaced out by a few au would see parallax if the bursts are of solar system origin the problem with oort cloud sources is that absolutely no plausible mechanism has been proposed it would have to involve new physics as far as i can tell closest to conventional oort sources is a model of b field pinching by comets it s got too many holes in it to count but at least it was a good try steinn sigurdsson lick observatory steinly lick ucsc edu standard disclaimer the laws of gravity are very very strict and you re just bending them for your own benefit b b
sci.space	temperature of the dark sky does anyone have a reference something i can look up not just your own recollections i have a few of those myself on the temperature of the night sky as seen from space note i am not talking about the temperature of the microwave background radiation there are more things in the sky than just the mbr what i m after is total blackbody temperature what a thermal radiator would see disregarding or shielding against the sun and nearby large warm objects my dim recollection is that the net effective temperature is substantially higher than that of the mbr once you figure in things like stars and the zodiacal light but i d like numbers svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	words from the chairman of boeing on ssto type stuff yesterday i went to the boeing shareholders meeting it was a bit shorter than i expected last year when the stock was first down they made a big presentation on the and other programs this year it was much more bare bones in any case i wanted to ask a question that the board of directors would hear and so i got there early and figured that if i didn t get to the mike maybe they would read mine off of a card and so i wrote it down and handed it in after the meeting started mr shrontz said that he would only answer written questions in order to be fair to the people in the overflow room that only had monitors downstairs naturally i was crushed so when question and answer time came i was suprised to find my question being read and answered admittedly near the end of the ones that he took presumably getting there early and getting the question in early made all the difference so on to the substance the question was is boeing looking at anything beyond the high speed civil transport such as a commercial space launch system and if not how will boeing compete with the reusable single stage to orbit technology presently being developed by mcdonnell douglass well he read it without a hitch and without editing with impressed me then he answered it very quickly treating it as a two part question last part first this is to the best of my recollection what he said as far as single stage to orbit technology we think that we have a better answer in a two stage approach and we are talking to some of our customers about that as far as commercialization that is a long ways off the high speed civil transport is about as far out as our commercial planning goes at this point so this tells me that boeing still considers space to be a non commercial arena and for the most part this is true however it also tells me that they consider there to be enough money in building space launchers for them to persue work on their own now i do have a friend on the spacelifter program at boeing actually this is a mis nomer as there is no spacelifter contract for the work that this guy is doing however he is doing work in preparation of a proposal for space lifter contracts he won t tell me what he is doing but maybe this is where the tsto action is taking place at boeing at the very minimum the chairman of the board of boeing said that they have an approach in mind and they are trying to do something with it anybody know anything further is this really news does this threaten further work on dc john
sci.space	re temperature of the dark sky in article c o t a o zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes does anyone have a reference something i can look up not just your own recollections i have a few of those myself on the temperature of the night sky as seen from space note i am not talking about the temperature of the microwave background radiation there are more things in the sky than just the mbr what i m after is total blackbody temperature what a thermal radiator would see disregarding or shielding against the sun and nearby large warm objects my dim recollection is that the net effective temperature is substantially higher than that of the mbr once you figure in things like stars and the zodiacal light but i d like numbers svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry it s not quite what you were asking but a few years ago i helped some ee remote sensing people run some experiments on the microwave emmissivity of ice they used the sky for a background calibration source they said that from earth s surface the sky looks like a k blackbody dr kurt hillig dept of chemistry i always tell the phone university of michigan absolute truth x khillig umich edu ann arbor mi as i see it hillig chem lsa umich edu
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days another factor against bringing the hst back to earth is risk of contamination luciana c messina lcm spl spl loral com
sci.space	space calendar the space calendar is updated monthly and the latest copy is available at ames arc nasa gov in the pub space faq please send any updates or corrections to ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov note that launch dates are subject to change the following person made contributions to this month s calendar o dennis newkirk soyuz tm launch date dec space calendar april indicates change from last month s calendar april apr astra c ariane launch may may advanced photovoltaic electronics experiment apex pegasus launch may radcal scout launch may gps pmq delta ii launch may commercial experiment transporter comet conestoga launch may astronomy day may iapetus saturn eclipse may galileo enters asteroid belt again may eta aquarid meteor shower maximum ut solar lon deg may air force titan launch may sts endeavour european retrievable carrier eureca r may th anniversary pioneer venus orbiter launch may partial solar eclipse visible from north america northern europe may magellan aerobraking begins june jun temisat meteor launch jun uhf atlas launch jun noaa i atlas launch jun first test flight of the delta clipper dc x unmanned jun hispasat b insat b ariane launch jun lunar eclipse visible from north america jun sakigake nd earth flyby japan jun th anniversary of charon discovery pluto s moon by christy jun sts discovery advanced communications technology satellite july jul msti ii scout launch jul galaxy ariane launch jul soyuz launch soviet jul soyuz launch soviet jul soyuz tm landing soviet jul iapetus saturn eclipse jul soyuz tm landing soviet jul s delta aquarid meteor shower maximum ut solar longitude degrees jul nasa s th birthday august aug ets vi engineering test satellite h launch japan aug geos j launch aug landsat launch aug orbcom fdm pegasus launch aug th anniversary pioneer venus launch atmospheric probes aug mars observer th trajectory correction maneuver tcm aug n delta aquarids meteor shower maximum ut solar longitude degrees aug perseid meteor shower maximum ut solar longitude degrees aug mars observer mars orbit insertion moi aug sts columbia spacelab life sciences sls aug galileo asteroid ida flyby september sep spot ariane launch sep tubsat launch sep seastar pegasus launch october oct intelsat f ariane launch oct slv pegasus launch oct telstar atlas launch oct seawifs launch oct orionid meteor shower maximum ut solar longitude degrees november nov solidaridad mop ariane launch nov th anniversary mariner launch mercury venus flyby mission nov s taurid meteor shower nov galileo exits asteroid belt nov mercury transits across the sun visible from asia australia and the south pacific nov mars observer mapping orbit established nov sts discovery spacehab nov partial solar eclipse visible from southern hemisphere nov wilhelm herschel s th birthday nov leonids meteor shower maximum ut solar longitude degrees nov mars observer mapping begins nov total lunar eclipse visible from north america south america december dec goes i atlas launch dec nato b delta launch dec toms pegasus launch dec directtv thiacom ariane launch dec istp wind delta launch dec step pegasus launch dec soyuz tm launch soviet dec sts endeavour hubble space telescope repair dec spektr r launch soviet dec th anniversary pioneer jupiter flyby dec mars observer mars equinox dec geminids meteor shower maximum ut solar longitude degrees dec mars observer solar conjunction begins dec ursids meteor shower maximum ut solar longitude degrees january jan mars observer end of solar conjunction jan clementine titan iig launch lunar orbiter asteroid flyby mission february feb sfu launch feb gms launch feb th anniversary mariner venus flyby feb sts columbia u s microgravity payload usmp feb galileo s th birthday feb clementine lunar orbit insertion feb th anniversary mariner launch mars flyby mission march mar tc c launch mar th anniversary voyager jupiter flyby mar albert einstein s th birthday mar th anniversary mariner launch mars flyby mission mar th anniversary mariner st mercury flyby mar galaxy r delta launch april apr equator s scout launch apr mars observer perihelion apr sts atlantis srl ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab m s telos the aweto from new zealand pasadena ca is part caterpillar and part vegetable
sci.space	bil space race ideas moon base on the cheap although the billion scheme is a fantasy it s an old canard in the space business called trolling for billionaires there is a good chance that a much smaller program million will pass the rd congress this is the back to the moon bill put together by the people who passed the launch services purchase act the bill would incent private companies to develop lunar orbiters with vendors selected on the basis of competitive bidding there is an aggregate cap on the bids of million having a single rich individual paying billions for lunar missions is probably worse than having the government bankroll a million program as the delta clipper program has shown dc x was funded by sdio at million we have a clear chance of making a lunar mission happen in this decade as opposed to simply wishing for our dreams to come true please support the back to the moon bill for more information please send e mail with your u s postal service address maximus wb
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky in article apr cs ucf edu clarke acme ucf edu thomas clarke writes now if they wanted to paint the cocacola symbol on the moon in lampblack that would give me pause wouldn t bother me i d laugh it wouldn t work the surface of the moon is already pretty dark and the contrast would be so poor you couldn t possibly see it the only reason the moon looks bright is that it s in bright sunlight against an otherwise dark sky evidently heinlein didn t know that svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky in article c lj az fs ece cmu edu loss fs ece cmu edu doug loss writes i didn t want to quote all the stuff that s been said recently i just wanted to add a point then enforces those rights for them here in the u s the constitution provides a bill of rights from which most if not all legal rights are considered to derive i m sure that most other countries have these seem hardly like the groups to discuss this in but huh all legitimate power to enforce these rights derives from the consent of the governed not from no steenkin piece of paper civilized gov mnt is not an autonomous computer program it s interactive the constitution was made by the people and can be trashed by us it ain t no sacred scripture from which rights flow our rights come from our souls and i sure didn t see any request to vote on trashing the sky again my opinion only we keep our rights by using them not going to some court comparable documents if you can persuade a court that you have a right to a dark sky derived in some manner from the bill of rights in the u s you can prevent maybe these billboards from being launched to keep anyone in the world from launching then gets into international law and the international court of justice correct name in the hague something i know little about doug loss loss husky bloomu edu most gracious regards whh
sci.space	re i want that billion in article c vvg j zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes only if he doesn t spend more than a billion dollars doing it since the prize is not going to be scaled up to match the level of effort you can spend a billion pretty quickly buying titan launches fine i ll buy from george georgeee that assumes i can t weasel out a cooperative venture of some sort cut me a break on the launcher i ll cut you in on the proceeds if it works only the government pays higher than list price what s more if you buy titans the prize money is your entire return on investment if you develop a new launch system it has other uses and the prize is just the icing on the cake unless you re martin marietta since as i recall they bought out the gd line of aerospace products if mm gd does it as an in house project their costs would look much better than buying at list price does anyone really know the profit margins built in to the titan c mon allen is telling us how cheap we can get improved this or that i doubt very much that a billion dollar prize is going to show enough return to justify the investment if you are constrained to use current us launchers oh please how much of a profit do you want pulling million after all is said and done wouldn t be too shabby not to mention the other goodies i ll collect in a movie tv rights say million conservatively b advertising look mommie they re drinking coke c intangibles name recognization experience data acculumated you re going to have to invest your front money in building a new launch system rather than pissing it away on existing ones being there first is of no importance if you go bankrupt doing it if you want lean fine a million prize would be more than adequate for a prize maybe wales would be kind enough to define what a company would consider a decent profit if you want r d done you ll have to write in r d clauses i suppose you could make it a sbir set aside software engineering that s like military intelligence isn t it sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu
sci.space	two line orbital element set space shuttle the most current orbital elements from the norad two line element sets are carried on the celestial bbs and are updated daily when possible documentation and tracking software are also available on this system as a service to the satellite user community the most current elements for the current shuttle mission are provided below the celestial bbs may be accessed hours day at or bps using data bits stop bit no parity element sets also updated daily shuttle elements and some documentation and software are also available via anonymous ftp from archive afit af mil in the directory pub space sts u a dr ts kelso assistant professor of space operations tkelso afit af mil air force institute of technology
sci.space	re lindbergh and the moon was why not give g gnb baby bby com au gregory n bond writes in article c v lr kxf news cso uiuc edu jbh uxa cso uiuc edu josh hopkins writes re voyages of discovery could you give examples of privately funded ones if you believe the film columbus had substantial private funds when columbus asked the merchant why he put the money in the guy said slightly paraphrased there is faith hope and charity but greater than these is banking heck some of his ships were loaners one was owned by a basque you know one of those groups that probably crossed the atlantic before columbus came along gregory bond gnb bby com au burdett buckeridge young ltd melbourne australia knox s is slick fox in sox on knox s box knox s box is very quick plays lots of lsl he s sick apologies to john iron bar mackin phil fraering seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man
sci.space	re level in article apr fnalf fnal gov higgins fnalf fnal gov bill higgins beam jockey writes will someone tell an ignorant physicist where the term level comes from but who is it that invents this standard and how come everyone but me seems to be familiar with it the sei software engineering institute a dod funded part of carnegie mellon university you can read about part of it in ed yourdon s the decline and fall of the american programmer yourdon press just passing thru eugene miya nasa ames research center eugene orville nas nasa gov resident cynic rock of ages home for retired hackers uunet mailrus other gateways ames eugene second favorite email message returned mail cannot send message for days a ref mathematics and plausible reasoning vol g polya
sci.space	comet launch date hello out there if your familiar with the comet program then this concerns you comet is scheduled to be launched from wallops island sometime in june does anyone know if an official launch date has been set thanks rob
sci.space	re i want that billion in article rkb inn hs mojo eng umd edu sysmgr king eng umd edu writes what s more if you buy titans the prize money is your entire return on investment if you develop a new launch system it has other uses and the prize is just the icing on the cake unless you re martin marietta since as i recall they bought out the gd line of aerospace products i think you ve got an off by one error in your memory mm bought the satellite building side of ge e not d mm and gd are still competitors if mm gd does it as an in house project their costs would look much better than buying at list price better yes but we re not talking order of magnitude especially if you want to use titan iv which belongs to the usaf not mm c mon allen is telling us how cheap we can get improved this or that sure you can get a heavylift launcher fairly cheap if you do it privately rather than as a gummint project but we re still talking about something that will cost nine digits per launch unless you can guarantee a large market to justify volume production svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	space surveillance what i really meant thanks to the people who have answered here and in email to my question about which countries engage in space surveillance unfortunately i apparently didn t make the meaning of the message clear since most replies have addressed satellite reconnaissance rather than space surveillance what i meant was not which countries use satellites to look at the earth satellite reconnaissance but was which countries have programs to detect and track i e determine the orbital elements of satellites as they pass overhead space surveillance the us uses missile defense radars supplemented by a fascinating quasi radar operated by the navy to do this for satellites in leo and electrooptical systems for objects at altitudes above km or so the fee i understand does much the same thing amateur satellite observers use eyeballs binoculars stopwatches and pcs for objects out to around km enabling them to keep track of satellites for which ah official element sets aren t available see the fascinating books by desmond king hele for details as well as the files in the molczan directory on kilroy jpl nasa gov the material posted in my previous message suggests that japan engages in optical and radar space surveillance to a modest degree and it may be that other countries do also which was the question i meant to ask who are they how do they do it and why do they do it allen thomson saic mclean va oh yes i don t speak for saic
sci.space	re long term human missions excerpt from rek siss robert kaye just a few contributions from the space program to regular society calculators teflon so your eggs don t stick in the pan pacemakers kept my grandfather alive from until don t forget tang smile robert m shearman jr university of maryland college park maryland e mail madison wam umd edu will work for chocolate
sci.space	u k see mir in evening skies astronomy space magazine s uk telephone newsline carries the times to see the russian space station mir which will be visible every evening some time between o clock and midnight from april to may it s about as bright as jupiter at its best there are two cosmonuats on board for the time to watch tel p min peak p min all other times but prediction is at start of the weekly message so it only costs a few pence e mail reports of sightings would be appreciated give lat long and ut a few seconds accuracy if possible when it passes above or below any bright star say brighter than mag planet or moon with moon in evening sky also note that from somewhere in u k mir will pass in front of the moon each night please alert local clubs to the telephone newsline and general public as mir can cause quite a stir tony ryan astronomy space new international magazine available from astronomy ireland p o box dublin ireland issues one year sub uk pounds us surface add us airmail access visa mastercard accepted give number expiration date name address world s largest astro soc per capita unless you know better tel uk n ireland eire cost up to p per min
sci.space	re tsniimach enterprise in article c hv ng cs cmu edu flb flb optiplan fi f baube tm writes from wales larrison ofa fidonet org tsniimach enterprise is described as a ex military establishment focusing on aerodynamics and thermal protection of spacecraft and which has participated in the development of the buran shuttle system they are located near the npo energia facility in kaliningrad outside of moscow if this facility is in kaliningrad this is not near moscow correction and some more info the kaliningrad that mr larrison writes about is indeed near moscow i ve read that it may also be known by the name podlipk and is a short distance from zvezdny gorodok star city and the cosmonaut training center there i read that the tsniimach central scientific research institute of machine building est enterprise was also responsible for creating the nkik ground command and measurement complex including the kaliningrad flight control center which has controlled all soviet russian manned spaceflights since its completion in however it appears to have been a part of the ministry of general machine building which was not part of the military ministry of defense but would have been a part of the military industrial complex dennis newkirk dennisn ecs comm mot com motorola land mobile products sector schaumburg il
sci.space	u k see mir in evening skies tell friends astronomy space magazine s uk telephone newsline carries the times to see the russian space station mir which will be visible every evening some time between o clock and midnight from april to may it s about as bright as jupiter at its best there are two cosmonuats on board for the time to watch tel p min peak p min all other times but prediction is at start of the weekly message so it only costs a few pence e mail reports of sightings would be appreciated give lat long and ut a few seconds accuracy if possible when it passes above or below any bright star say brighter than mag planet or moon with moon in evening sky also note that from somewhere in u k mir will pass in front of the moon each night please alert local clubs to the telephone newsline and general public as mir can cause quite a stir tony ryan astronomy space new international magazine available from astronomy ireland p o box dublin ireland issues one year sub uk pounds us surface add us airmail access visa mastercard accepted give number expiration date name address world s largest astro soc per capita unless you know better tel uk n ireland eire cost up to p per min p s mir seen right on time april th passed just above jupiter brighter than arcturus but dimmer than jupiter not one of its highest passes
sci.space	re temperature of the dark sky in article apr news arc nasa gov moses pan arc nasa gov julie moses writes radiation field has been measured and modeled by various groups if i remember things correctly the models involved contributions from three different bb sources so there s no obvious temperature of background radiation in our local area indeed the sky doesn t look much like a black body if you look carefully enough in particular its temperature at radio frequencies is quite a bit higher than you would see from a black body morgan gordon s fat communications satellite handbook has a graph of sky temperature vs wavelength in fact for communications design however in terms of energy content the rf frequencies are negligible for thermal purposes at very large distances from the sun the sky looks like a black body at k allen astrophysical quantities i haven t found a number for non large distances since solar radiation tends to be something you can t just ignore but m g says about k in a brief discussion of why solar radiation dominates the problem svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	the universe of motion book review book review the universe of motion by dewey b larson north pacific publishers portland oregon pages indexed hardcover the universe of motion contains final solutions to most all astrophysical mysteries this book is volume iii of a revised and enlarged edition of the structure of the physical universe volume i is nothing but motion and volume ii is the basic properties of matter most books and journal articles on the subject of astrophysics are bristling with integrals partial differentials and other fancy mathematics in this book by contrast mathematics is conspicuous by its absence except for some relatively simple formulas imbedded in the text larson emphasizes concepts and declares that mathematical agreement with a theory does not guarantee its conceptual validity dewey b larson was a retired engineer with a bachelor of science degree in engineering science from oregon state university he developed the theory described in his books while trying to find a way to mathematically calculate the properties of chemical compounds based only on the elements they contain the universe of motion describes the astrophysical portions of larson s consistent integrated comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe a kind of grand unified field theory that orthodox physicists and astro physicists claim to be looking for it is built on two postulates about the physical and mathematical nature of space and time the physical universe is composed entirely of one component motion existing in three dimensions in discrete units and with two reciprocal aspects space and time the physical universe conforms to the relations of ordinary commutative mathematics its primary magnitudes are absolute and its geometry is euclidean from these two postulates larson was able to build a complete theoretical universe from photons and subatomic particles to the giant elliptical galaxies by combining the concept of inward and outward scalar motions with translational vibrational rotational and rotational vibrational motions at each step in the development he was able to match parts of his theoretical universe with corresponding parts in the real physical universe including even things not yet discovered for example in his book he first predicted the existence of exploding galaxies several years before astronomers started finding them they are a necessary consequence of his comprehensive theory and when quasars were discovered he had a related explanation ready for those also as a result of his theory which he called the reciprocal system larson totally rejected many of the sacred doctrines of orthodox physicists and astrophysicists including black holes neutron stars degenerate matter quantum wave mechanics as applied to atomic structure nuclear physics general relativity relativistic mass increases relativistic doppler shifts nuclear fusion in stars and the big bang all of which he considered to be nothing more than mathematical fantasies he was very critical of the ad hoc assumptions uncertainty principles solutions in principle no other way declarations etc used to maintain them the universe of motion is divided into chapters it begins with a description of how galaxies are built from the gravitational attraction between globular star clusters which are formed from intergalactic gas and dust clouds that accumulate from the decay products of cosmic rays coming in from the anti matter half of the physical universe galaxy formation from the mythical big bang is a big mystery to orthodox astronomers he then goes on to describe life cycles of stars and how binary and multiple star systems and solar systems result from type i supernova explosions of single stars several chapters are devoted to quasars which according to larson are densely packed clusters of stars that have been ejected from the central bulges of exploding galaxies and are actually traveling faster than the speed of light although most of that speed is away from us in time astronomers and astrophysicists who run up against observations that contradict their theories would find larson s explanations quite valuable if considered with an open mind for example they used to believe that gamma ray bursts originated from pulsars which exist primarily in the plane or central bulge of our galaxy but the new gamma ray telescope in earth orbit observed that the bursts come from all directions uniformly and do not correspond with any visible objects except for a few cases of directional coincidence larson s explanation is that the gamma ray bursts originate from supernova explosions in the anti matter half of the physical universe which larson calls the cosmic sector because the anti matter universe exists in a reciprocal relation to our material universe with the speed of light as the boundary between them and has three dimensions of time and only one dimension of space the bursts can pop into our material universe anywhere seemingly at random larson heavily quotes or paraphrases statements from books journal articles and leading physicists and astronomers in this book of them are superscripted with numbers identifying entries in the reference list at the end of the book for example a quote from the book astronomy the cosmic journey by william k hartmann says our hopes of understanding all stars would brighten if we could explain exactly how binary and multiple stars form unfortunately we cannot larson s book contains logical consistent explanations of such mysteries that are worthy of serious consideration by all physicists astronomers and astrophysicists for more information answers to your questions etc please consult my cited sources larson s books un altered reproduction and dissemination of this important book review is encouraged robert e mcelwaine b s physics and astronomy uw ec
sci.space	long term human missions mike adams suggested discussions on long term effects of spaceflight to the human being i love this topic as some of you regulars know so having seen henry s encouraging statement about starting to talk about it i shall i feel that we as a community of people have unique resources to deliver to the world a comprehensive book which can elaborate on the utility of spaceflight to fields which are as divergent as medical intensive care agriculture environmental protection and probably more i do not believe that the general public understands the impact of spaceflight on the whole of society in the absence of such knowledge we see dwindling support of the world s space effort i believe that we as a group have the responsibility to not only communicate amongst ourselves but also with others through print media a well orchestrated and technically oriented analysis of life science variables required to support long duration spaceflight like long expenditions to the moon or mars would be entertaining and educational to the general public the objective of such an effort would be to compile resources and publications from accepted scientific and technical journals which would address each major life science area in addition ideas for further research and development could be put forward for the general public to ponder allowing the general public to take part in the excitement of exploration individuals interested should be willing to devote an hour per week to running literature searches and finding journal articles in addition we need to obtain the assistance of personnel from within the halls of nasa and industry i have appreciated the positive responses to date and i am personally eager to start this project perhaps we could start with debate regarding how best to grade the viability of various technologies for application to spaceflight ken
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they in article apr midway uchicago edu pef midway uchicago edu writes batse by having detectors of its own can do its own location determination but only to within about degrees would someone at gsfc like david like to comment on the current state of location determination having inde pendent sightings by other detectors helps drive down the uncertainty well i ll avoid your question for now got some learnin to do with a promise to come back with more info when i can find it i do know that batse is the primary instrument in the development of the all sky map of long term sources given that fact and the spacecraft attitude knowledge of approx arcmin we might be able to figure out how well batse can determine the location rotational of a gamma ray burster from knowledge of the all sky map s accuracy pr material for the other three instruments give accuracies on the order of fractions of a degree if that s any help speaking of gro the net world probably was happy to see that the preps for orbit adjust appear to be going well our branch guy who s helping out says that things have gone smoothly with the iso valve preps and the burns will take place in mid june anyway i m off to find out more be back when i get some info david w gsfc i don t know nuthin bout measurin no gamma rays gone with the wind paraphrased
sci.space	re temperature of the dark sky henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes does anyone have a reference something i can look up not just your own recollections i have a few of those myself on the temperature of the night sky as seen from space you ll find that in allen c w astrophysical quantities athlone press dover nh rd edition pp to the accuracy it can be calculated see specific references in allen about how it is calculated the temperature is degrees k lots of people have remarked on this temperature the first may have been in eddington s book internal constitution of stars ch reprinted where he gives the temperature of space as degrees the source of this temperature is the radiation of starlight my dim recollection is that the net effective temperature is substantially higher than that of the mbr once you figure in things like stars and the zodiacal light but i d like numbers to the accuracy of measurement it s the same temperature some of us think this may not be a coincidence tom tom van flandern washington dc metares well sf ca us meta research was founded to foster research into ideas not otherwise supported because they conflict with mainstream theories in astronomy
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters how energetic could they be in article apr vax mankato msus edu belgarath vax mankato msus edu writes energetic for close by for the coronal model we found around erg sec and lastly for the cosmological model an l that s what you d call moderately energetic i d say any suggestions about what could put out that much energy in one second jeremy big capacitor real big capacitor pat
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they well i seem to have struck an interesting discussion off given that i am not an astrophysicist or nuclear physicist i ll have to boil it down a bit all the data on bursts to date shows a smooth random distribution that means they aren t concentrated in galactic cores our or someone elses if the distribution is smooth we are either seeing some enormously large phenomena scattered at the edge of the universe said phenomena being subject to debate almost as vioent as the phenomena or we are seeing some phenomena out at like the oort cloud but then it needs some potent little energy source that isn t detectable by any other current methods we know it s not real close like slightly extra solar because we have no parallax measurements on the bursts the bursts seem to bright to be something like black hole quanta or super string impacts or something like that so everyone is watching the data and arguing like mad in the meanwhile what i am wondering is this in people s opinion a new physics problem einstein got well known for solvingthe photoelectric effect copernicus started looking at irregularities in planetary motion is this a big enough problem to create a new area of physics just a little speculative thinking folks pat
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they steinly topaz ucsc edu steinn sigurdsson writes in article apr tpl k tplrd tpl oz au keithh tplrd tpl oz au keith harwood writes in article rbl einnip gap caltech edu palmer cco caltech edu david m palmer writes prb access digex com pat writes what evidence indicates that gamma ray bursters are very far away given the enormous power i was just wondering what if they are quantum black holes or something like that fairly close by why would they have to be at galactic ranges david gives good explaination of the deductions from the isotropic edged distribution to whit they are either part of the universe or part of the oort cloud why couldn t they be earth centred with the edge occuring at the edge of the gravisphere i know there isn t any mechanism for them but there isn t a mechanism for the others either what on earth is the gravisphere anyway before it s decay the pioneer venus orbiter had a gamma ray detector as does ulysses they detect the brightest bursts that the earth orbit detectors do so the bursts are at least at oort cloud distances in principle four detectors spaced out by a few au would see parallax if the bursts are of solar system origin the problem with oort cloud sources is that absolutely no plausible mechanism has been proposed it would have to involve new physics as far as i can tell closest to conventional oort sources is a model of b field pinching by comets it s got too many holes in it to count but at least it was a good try steinn sigurdsson lick observatory steinly lick ucsc edu standard disclaimer the laws of gravity are very very strict and you re just bending them for your own benefit b b also if they did come from the oort cloud we would expect to see the same from other stars oort clouds andrew walker
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky in article c na c news cso uiuc edu gfk uxa cso uiuc edu george f krumins writes i say what i m objecting to here is a floating billboard that presumably would move around in the sky i for one am against legislating at all i just wish that people had a bit of common courtesy and would consider how their greed for money impacts the more ethereal and aesthetic values that make us human this includes the need for wild and unspoiled things including the night sky sorry that s an aesthetics argument maybe this string shoudl mofe to sci space aesthetics planes ruin the night sky blimps ruin the night sky radio towers ruin the night sky like i said get a vote and create some more national parks which include onobstructed air space
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they in article steinly apr topaz ucsc edu steinly topaz ucsc edu steinn sigurdsson writes this does not propose a mechanism for grbs in the oort and no anti matter annihilation does not fit the spectra at least as far as i understand annihilation spectra big difference that s ignoring the question of how you fit a distribution to the oort distribution when the oort distribution is not well known in particular comet aphelia which are not well known are not a good measure of the oort cloud distribution merging neutron stars is at least a mechanism with about the right energy except it doesn t explain why there is no apparent correlation with galaxies or galaxy structure there is no mechanism for getting all the energy out in gamma rays with any significant amount of baryons around there will be a lot of pair production which makes a plasma which thermalizes the energy it has trouble generating enough energy to explain the most powerful bursts ergs it happens too fast compared to the burst duration and it is hard to make tight binaries of neutron stars another cosmological mechinism is the catalytic conversion of a neutron star to a strange star or the merger of two strange stars but that uses pretty far out physics my point is that we don t have a good mechanism at any distance so grb s are likely to be happening by an unknown mechanism so we can t rule out the oort cloud what would be the spectrum of an event which converts a comet to strange matter the spectra for primordial black holes eating comets and antimatter comets colliding with matter comets aren t quite right but perhaps there is an unusual mechanism which modifies the spectrum the energy matches very well for both of these mechanisms according to trevor weeks if the tunguska meteorite was a mini black hole collision with the earth then there are likely to be enough mini black holes around that the rate for bh comet collisions matches the grb rate well the fact that we don t know the distribution of comets in the oort cloud isn t a reason to rule them out it makes it harder to rule them out the point of the cited paper was that if we assume they got the right distribution for the oort cloud it is hard but not impossible to match that up with the distribution of grb s if they got the wrong distribution for the oort cloud they can t constrain any oort cloud grb s at all executive summary we don t know enough to rule out out the oort cloud
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters positional stuff in article rmh einn h gap caltech edu kwp wag caltech edu kevin w plaxco writes in article apr stdvax gsfc nasa gov abdkw stdvax gsfc nasa gov david ward writes given that fact and the spacecraft attitude knowledge of approx arcmin we might be able to figure out how well batse can determine the location rotational of a gamma ray burster from knowledge of the all sky map s accuracy pr material for the other three instruments give accuracies on the order of fractions of a degree if that s any help but i believe that there is a fundamental difference here the other x three instruments are focusing instruments that more or less form an image so positional errors are limited by craft attitude and the resolving power of the optics batse is an altogether different beast effectively just coincidence counters one on each corner of the craft positional information is triangulated from the differential signal arrival times at each of the detectors positional error would be predominantly determined by timing errors and errors in craft attitude since none of the baste detectors have any independant angular resolution whatsoever they can not be used to determine parallax indeed parallax would just add a very small component to the positional error demonstrating that these puppies are beyond the oort cloud would require resolution on the order of arcseconds since the oort cloud is postulated to extend to about parsec all together now parallax arc second a parsec is the distance of an object that demonstrates one arc second of parallax with a au base line if the degree accuracy reported above is true we re going to have to add a baste to the pluto fast flyby to get enough baseline the beauty of baste is that it both gives positional information and watches the entire sky simultaneously a realy handy combination when you have no idea where the next burst is coming from kevin batse alone isn t always used to determine position when a particularly bright burst occurs there are a couple of other detectors that catch it going off pioneer or is the one i m getting at here this puppy is far enough away that if a bright burst happens nearby the huge annulus created by it will hopefully intersect the line or general circle given by batse and we can get a moderately accurate position say oh or degrees that is the closest anyone has ever gotten with it actually my advisor another classmate of mine and me were talking the other day about putting just one detector on one of the pluto satellites then we realized that the satellite alone is only carrying something like pounds of eq well a batse detector needs lead shielding to protect it and alone weighs about pounds itself we decided against it jeremy
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days in article rd g ckb access digex net prb access digex com pat writes my guess is why bother with usingthe shuttle to reboost why not grapple do all said fixes bolt a small liquid fueled thruster module to hst then let it make the re boost it has to be cheaper on mass then usingthe shuttle as a tug that way now that they are going to need at least spacewalks then they can carry an edo pallet and sit on station and even maybe do the solar array tilt motor fix as herny pointed out you have to develop the thruster also while much lighter you still have to lift the mass of the thruster to orbit and then the thruster lifts its own weight into a higher orbit and you take up room in the payload bay pat
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they u wampyr cc uow edu au walker andrew john writes also if they did come from the oort cloud we would expect to see the same from other stars oort clouds that s a very good point perhaps none of the nearby stars have oort clouds alpha centauri is a multiple star system you wouldn t expect an oort cloud in it what s the nearest single star that is likely to have a planetary system
sci.space	new inexpensive method for determining ore oil locations dear gentlemen the firm called interbusiness ltd offers quite inexpensive method to determine ore oil locations all over the world in this method used data got from space satellites being in your office and using theese data you can get a good statis tical prognosis of locations mentioned above this prognosis could be done for any part of the world if you re interested in details please send e mail svn aoibs msk su sushkov vladimir moscow russia
sci.space	re temperature of the dark sky henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes does anyone have a reference something i can look up not just your own recollections i have a few of those myself on the temperature of the night sky as seen from space the temperature of intergalactic space or intercluster or intersupercluster space would be very very close to the microwave background temperature kelvins i recall that in interstellar space in our neighborhood of the galaxy it s something like k is that what you were looking for erik max francis tsftdotiote apple uuwest max max west darkside com usmail oakmont dr san jose ca icbm n w if you like strategic games of interstellar conquest ask about universe omnia quia sunt lumina sunt all things that are are lights
sci.space	re temperature of the dark sky henry spencer writes does anyone have a reference something i can look up not just your own recollections i have a few of those myself on the temperature of the night sky as seen from space note i am not talking about the temperature of the microwave background radiation there are more things in the sky than just the mbr what i m after is total blackbody temperature what a thermal radiator would see disregarding or shielding against the sun and nearby large warm objects henry if i read you correctly you may be asking if i put a blackbody in interstellar space disregarding the sun and nearby large warm objects what termperature will it reach in thermal equilibrium with the ambient radiation field if that s the case let me point out that interstellar dust and molecules provide many instances of things that are well not too far from being blackbodies many different observations including iras and cobe have determined that interstellar dust grain temperatures can range from k to k you might look in a conference proceedings interstellar processes ed d j hollenbach and h a thronson jr published in try the articles by tielens et al seab and black inside the disk of the galaxy the temperature varies quite a bit from place to place how close are you to the nearest ob association i would guess outside the galaxy of course things aren t so varied i hope this is what you were looking for michael richmond this is the heart that broke my finger richmond astro princeton edu
sci.space	re long term human missions in article apr rpslmc edu rek siss robert kaye writes just a few contributions from the space program to regular society calculators teflon so your eggs don t stick in the pan pacemakers kept my grandfather alive from until i don t think touting contributions is a good idea world war ii produced many many beneficial spinoffs eg radar jet aeroplanes rocket technology i don t think anyone would argue that world war ii was in and of itself a good thing if you want people to back the space program it must be a good thing in and of itself paul
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they in article apr desire wright edu jbatka desire wright edu writes i assume that can only be guessed at by the assumed energy of the event and the r law so if the r law is incorrect assume some unknown material dark matter inhibits gamma ray propagation could it be possible that we are actually seeing much less energetic events happening much closer to us the even distribution could be caused by the characteristic propagation distance of gamma rays being shorter then the thickness of the disk of the galaxy i believe the problem with this theory is that we see gamma ray sources at that energy range and their energy doesn t seem to be significantly absorbed
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky in c fdw e e news cso uiuc edu george f krumins writes according to this reasoning there are no rights at least none that i can think of you ve got it what you regard as a right someone else will regard as a privilege followups to some generic ethics and morality newsgroup greg nicholls vidi nicho vnet ibm com or vici nicho olympus demon co uk veni
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky in rls aj access digex net prb access digex com pat writes planes ruin the night sky blimps ruin the night sky radio towers ruin the night sky like i said get a vote and create some more national parks which include onobstructed air space you should have heard prof mcnally from my days as an astronomy undergraduate denouncing photon pollution it was easy to imagine him taking practical steps to modify the sodium lamps on the street outside mill hill observatory with a gauge shotgun however seriously it is possible to limit the effects of streetlights by adding a reflector so that the light only illuminates the ground which is after all where you need it as a bonus the power consumption required for a given illumination level is reduced strangely enough astronomers often seek to lobby elected local authorities to use such lighting systems with considerable success in the desert areas around the major us observatories at least thats what mcnally told us all those years ago british local authorities couldn t care less as far as i can see i suppose that the right to dark skies is no more than an aspiration but it is a worthwhile one illuminated orbital billboards seem especially yukky and are presumably in the area of international law if any although i do find the idea of a right to bear anti satellite weapons intriguing peter card joint european torus abingdon oxfordshire ox ea uk tel fax email pjc jet uk or compuserve it wasnt me it was the others they made me do it disclaimer please note that the above is a personal view and should not be construed as an official comment from the jet project
sci.space	internet resources exit
sci.space	internet resources i am taking a course entitled exploring science using internet for our final project we are to find a compendium of internet resources dealing with a science related topic i chose astronomy anyway i was wondering if anyone out there knew of any interesting resources on internet that provide information on astronomy space nasa or anything like that thanks keith malinowski stk vax stockton edu p o box stockton state college pomona new jersey
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters positional stuff in article apr vax mankato msus edu belgarath vax mankato msus edu writes getting at here this puppy is far enough away that if a bright burst happens nearby the huge annulus created by it will hopefully intersect the line or general circle given by batse and we can get a moderately accurate position say oh or degrees that is the closest anyone has ever gotten with it you can do a whole hell of a lot better than or degrees with the differential timing measurements from the interplanetary network ignore the directional information from batse just look at the time of arrival with three detectors properly arranged one can often get positions down to arc minutes btw about oort cloud sources shouldn t this be testable in the fairly near future some of the grbs have very short rise times ms we could detect the curvature of the burst wavefront out to a distance of on the order of b t c where b is the detector spacing and t the time resolution for t ms and b au this is on the order of light years i understand statistics will reduce this number considerably as would geometry if the burst is coming from the wrong direction paul
sci.space	re what planets are habitable in article c w iyd fs ece cmu edu loss fs ece cmu edu doug loss writes in article jpg apr holly bnr co uk jpg bnr co uk jonathan p gibbons writes i would appreciate any thoughts on what makes a planet habitable for humans i am making asumptions that life and a similar atmosphere evolve given a range of physical aspects of the planet the question is what physical aspects simply disallow earth like conditions deleted dandridge cole and isaac asimov collaborated on a book titled habitable planets for man i think in it should be available in most good libraries or through inter library loan this is the high school science version the original rand study by stephen h dole planets for man gives the harder numbers graphs such but predates michael hart s later work on continuously habitable zones
sci.space	re what planets are habitable i would appreciate any thoughts on what makes a planet habitable for humans i am making asumptions that life and a similar atmosphere evolve given a range of physical aspects of the planet the question is what physical aspects simply disallow earth like conditions this is a good question there are major blind spots in our understanding of what makes the earth habitable for example why does the earth s atmosphere have the concentration of oxygen it does the naive answer is photosynthesis but this is clearly incomplete photosynthesis by itself can t make the atmosphere oxygenated as the oxygen produced is consumed when the plants decay or are eaten what is needed is photosynthesis plus some mechanism to sequester some fraction of the resulting reduced material on earth this mechanism is burial in seafloor sediments of organic matter mostly from oceanic sources however this burial requires continental sediments in the deep ocean the burial rate is so slow that most material is consumed before it can be sequestered this suggests that a planet without large oceans or a planet without continents undergoing weathering will have a hard time accumulating an oxygen atmosphere in particular an all ocean planet may have a hard time supporting an oxygen atmosphere there is also the problem of why the oxygen in the earth s atmosphere has been relatively stable over geological time for a period at least orders of magnitude longer than the decay time of atmospheric o to weathering in the absence of replenishment no convincing feedback mechanism has been identified perhaps the reason is the weak anthropic principle if during the last myr or so the oxygen level had dropped too low we wouldn t be here to be wondering about it paul f dietz dietz cs rochester edu
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky in article apr stsci edu hathaway stsci edu writes in article c lj az fs ece cmu edu loss fs ece cmu edu doug loss writes i didn t want to quote all the stuff that s been said recently i just wanted to add a point then enforces those rights for them here in the u s the constitution provides a bill of rights from which most if not all legal rights are considered to derive i m sure that most other countries have these seem hardly like the groups to discuss this in but huh all legitimate power to enforce these rights derives from the consent of the governed not from no steenkin piece of paper we don t disagree on this all i said was that a right is whatever you or somebody acting for you can enforce the bill of rights didn t come into effect until it was ratified by the states and indirectly the people from that point it defined legal rights common law rights are vague and situational that s why the people insisted on a bill of rights in the constitution spelling out exactly what they demanded from the government legitimate or illegitimate power is power that s why the federal government can force states to grant their citizens rights they don t wish to in a slugging match the feds win period and you re right this doesn t belong in sci space i ve said my peace no more frome me on rights at least not here most gracious regards whh doug loss loss husky bloomu edu
sci.space	commercials on the moon i have often thought about if its possible to have a powerfull laser on earth to light at the moon and show lasergraphics at the surface so clearly that you can see it with your eyes when there is a new moon how about a coca cola logo at the moon easy way to target billions of people do you know if its possible erik m hansen email u daimi aau dk fuglsangsalle aarhus university dk erhus v denmark europe
sci.space	re long term human missions ken hayashida khayash hsc usc edu wrote mike adams suggested discussions on long term effects of spaceflight to the human being i love this topic as some of you regulars know so having seen henry s encouraging statement about starting to talk about it i shall i feel that we as a community of people have unique resources to deliver to the world a comprehensive book which can elaborate on the utility of spaceflight to fields which are as divergent as medical intensive care agriculture environmental protection and probably more i do not believe that the general public understands the impact of spaceflight on the whole of society in the absence of such knowledge we see dwindling support of the world s space effort just a few contributions from the space program to regular society calculators teflon so your eggs don t stick in the pan pacemakers kept my grandfather alive from until p s to all the regular contributors to sci space news and sci space shuttle thanks for all your hard work keeping us informed as to the doings down in nasa and other space type agencies i don t have much time to read usenet but i always read these two groups robert e kaye asst sys admin surgical information systems rush presbyterian st luke s medical center chicago il usa internet rek siss rpslmc edu voice fax support your local community theater groups o o o o st marcellene s church in schaumburg il presents meet me in st louis opening april th
sci.space	astro ftp list notes hello all i apologize i haven t published my astro ftp list since march now i haven t tested all the sites included into the list i would notified all the people you have stored some older issues of my there are now lots of changes many sites have gone away they either do not exist any more or all the astro stuff have removed the job keep this list is very hard so all the notes and informat ion of changes new sites new contents etc is welcome i would thank all the net people who give me information for the newest version regards veikko makela computing centre univ of helsinki f i n l a n d
sci.space	astro ftp list april issue a s t r o f t p l i s t updated this is a short description of anonymous ftp file servers containing astronomy and space research related material i have included only those servers where there are special subdirectories for astro stuff or much material included into a general directories this list is not a complete data set of possible places so i would be very happy of all kind of notices and information depending on this listing the newest version of this file is available via anonymous ftp as nic funet fi pub astro general astroftp txt there are also many mirror copy archives for simtel army mil pc and sumex aim stanford edu mac which are not included into this list only some of mirroring sites are listed veikko makela veikko makela helsinki fi computing centre of univ helsinki ursa astronomical association server ip contents directories ames arc nasa gov spacecraf data and news images nasa data spacelink texts vicar software faq pub space arp anu edu au images pub images nasa atari archive umich edu atari atari applications astronomy archive afit af mil satellite software documents elements pub space baboon cv nrao edu aips document and patches radioastronomy image processing fits test images pub aips c scs uiuc edu rosat starchart pc pub ccu aukuni ac nz pc msdos astronomy overseas connections refused chara gsu edu electronical journal of asa journal of asa sac news explorer arc nasa gov magellan viking and voyager cdroms cdrom export lcs mit edu xephem distribution contrib xephem epona physics ucg ie some software predictions images fits info miscellaneous pub astro pub space pub fits fits cv nrao edu fits documents os support sample data test files sci astro fits archive fits ftp cicb fr images pub images astro ftp cco caltech edu astronomy magazine index pub misc ftp cs tu berlin de pc amiga mac unix images general pub astro ftp funet fi pc mac cp m atari amiga databases unix hp os texts news solar reports images pub astro satellite elements faq ftp uni kl de iauc vista image reduction asteroids pub astro garbo uwasa fi pc pc astronomy gipsy vmars tuwien ac at images pub spacegifs hanauma stanford edu unix satellite program images pub astro pub astropix hysky stmarys ca ecu distribution pcstuff idlastro gsfc nasa gov idl routines iraf noao edu iraf software iraf julius cs qub ac uk space digest pub spacedigestarchive rata vuw ac nz astrophysical software pub astrophys kilroy jpl nasa gov satellite elements spacecraft info pub space ns hq eso org test images standards pub testimages pub standards nssdca gsfc nasa gov hst iue astro nssdca info spacewarn fits standard plaza aarnet edu au images docs magellan graphics graphics astro magellan pomona claremont edu yale bright star catalog yale bsc pubinfo jpl nasa gov jpl news status reports images ra nrl navy mil mac macscitech astro rascal ics utexas edu mac mac rigel acs oakland edu pc pub msdos astronomy rusmv rus uni stuttgart de atari soft atari applications astronomy simtel army mil pc cp m msdos educ cpm sol deakin oz au garbo uwasa fi c pub pc chyde astronomy solbourne solbourne com some pc programs pub rp as is astro stardent arc nasa gov martian map pub stsci edu hstmap mac hst info software sumex stanford edu mac info mac app sun urz uni heidelberg de pc misc pub msdos astronomy techreports larc nasa gov nasa langley technical reports pub techreports larc tetra gsfc nasa gov fitsio subroutines pub unbmvs csd unb ca space geodesy solar activity info pub canspace vmd cso uiuc edu weather satellite images wx world std com pc source codes pub astronomy xi uleth ca solar reports auroral activity forecast maps solar images x ray plot coronal pub solar emission plots some abbreviations c copy mirror of other archive my other e communication projects e mail contact addresses of interest groups in amateur astronomy european astronomy and space related bulletin boards e mail catalogue of finnish amateur astronomers
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days rdouglas stsci edu rob douglas writes but try to land a shuttle with that big huge telescope in the back and you could have problems the shuttle just isn t designed to land with that much weight in the payload is hst really that much heavier than a spacelab bd brian day bday lambda msfc nasa gov new technology inc mission software development division opinions are my own
sci.space	re hst servicing mission in article apr stsci edu zellner stsci edu writes i have never heard of any serious consideration that hst might be brought down for refurbishment you would have the horrendous cost of transporting back in january and february there were several articles wash post time saying that nasa was considering the option just as it is now considering a followup mission months after the servicing mission however the down time was estimated to be a year servicing checkout sceheduling and training another shuttle orbit verification and to be quite expensive i think it may have been more a mental exercise than a real plan don t know robert dempsey stsci podps he which hath no stomach for this fight let him depart his passport shall be made and crowns for convoy put into his purse we would not die in this man s company that fears his fellowship to die with us shakespeare
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky in article rls aj access digex net prb access digex com pat writes in article c na c news cso uiuc edu gfk uxa cso uiuc edu george f krumins writes i say what i m objecting to here is a floating billboard that presumably would move around in the sky i for one am against legislating at all i just wish that people had a bit of common courtesy and would consider how their greed for money impacts the more ethereal and aesthetic values that make us human this includes the need for wild and unspoiled things including the night sky sorry that s an aesthetics argument maybe this string shoudl mofe to sci space aesthetics planes ruin the night sky blimps ruin the night sky radio towers ruin the night sky like i said get a vote and create some more national parks which include onobstructed air space hokay i am hereby voting my backyard to be a sanctuary one acre where i can object to anything i do not like for aesthetic reasons what a relief to know we both can be happy
sci.space	re lindbergh and the moon was why not give g in article pgf srl cacs usl edu pgf srl cacs usl edu phil g fraering writes gnb baby bby com au gregory n bond writes in article c v lr kxf news cso uiuc edu jbh uxa cso uiuc edu josh hopkins writes re voyages of discovery could you give examples of privately funded ones much of cook s later exploration was privately funded by joseph banks among others eg in resolution the earlier endeavour colnett s voyage to the galapagos was substantially privately funded by the owners of british whaling vessels chancellor and willoughby were privately funded by london merchant companies in their voyages to muscovy the list is almost endless those doing the funding were about eighty percent motivated by potential profit ten percent by potential glory and ten percent by the desire to advance the sum of human knowledge dan newman aeronautical engineering university of sydney sydney nsw australia from dan key ae su oz au daniel m newman path key ae su oz au dan newsgroups sci space subject expires references sender reply to dan key ae su oz au daniel m newman distribution world organization aeronautical engineering sydney university keywords
sci.space	re abyss breathing fluids in article r esd lrh agate berkeley edu isaackuo skippy berkeley edu wrote are breathable liquids possible i remember seeing an old nova or the nature of things where this idea was touched upon it might have been some other tv show if nothing else i know such liquids are possible because they showed a large glass full of this liquid and put a white mouse rat in it since the liquid was not dense the mouse would float so it was held down by tongs clutching its tail the thing struggled quite a bit but it was certainly held down long enough so that it was breathing the liquid it never did slow down in its frantic attempts to swim to the top now this may not have been the most humane of demonstrations but it certainly shows breathable liquids can be made isaac kuo isaackuo math berkeley edu o twinkle twinkle little sig keep it less than lines big this was on that s incredible several years ago the volume of liquid the rat had to breath was considerably smaller than what a human would have to breath so maybe it is possible for a rat but not a human davetherave
sci.space	re i want that billion in article c u ikc zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes c mon allen is telling us how cheap we can get improved this or that sure you can get a heavylift launcher fairly cheap if you do it privately rather than as a gummint project but we re still talking about something that will cost nine digits per launch unless you can guarantee a large market to justify volume production let s make a deal if you re going to put up a billion i d want to budget the whole sheebang for million if i have that much money to throw around in the first place you betcha i m going to sign a contract committing to volume production software engineering that s like military intelligence isn t it sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu
sci.space	political banner in space i propose that pepsico mcdonalds and other companies could put into orbit banners that have timely political messages such as stop the slaughter in bosnia etc rabjab
sci.space	test please ignore 
sci.space	re space station redesign jsc alternative first kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov hey that s me wrote i have mb worth uuencode d gif images contain charts outlining one of the many alternative space station designs being considered in crystal city second kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov me again wrote i just posted the gif files out for anonymous ftp on server ics uci edu you can retrieve them from ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geodea gif ics uci edu incoming geodeb gif the last two are scanned color photos the others are scanned briefing charts these will be deleted by the ics uci edu system manager in a few days so now s the time to grab them if you re interested sorry it took me so long to get these out but i was trying for the ames server but it s out of space but now i need to clarify the situation the incoming directory on ics uci edu does not allow you to do an ls command the files are there i just checked on at cdt and you can get them don t forget the binary mode but you can t ls in the incoming directory a further update mark s design made the cover of space news this week as one of the design alternatives which was rejected but he s still in there plugging i wish him luck using et s as the basis of a space station has been a good idea for a long time may the best design win ken jenks nasa jsc gm space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov good ideas are not adopted automatically they must be driven into practice with courageous impatience admiral hyman g rickover
sci.space	the dream machines book on vaporware spacecraft ron miller is a space artist with a long and distinguished career i ve admired both his paintings remember the usps solar system exploration stamps last year and his writings on the history of spaceflight for several years he s been working on a big project which is almost ready to hit the streets a brochure from his publisher has landed in my mailbox and i thought it was cool enough to type in part of it it s rather long especially given the net s strong interest in vaporware spacecraft the dream machines an illustrated history of the spaceship in art science and literature by ron miller with foreword by arthur c clarke krieger publishing company melbourne florida usa orig ed pre publication isbn this text is a history of the spaceship as both a cultural and a technological phenomenon the idea of a vehicle for traversing the space betwen worlds did not spring full blown into existence in the tlatter half of theis century the need preceded the ability ot make such a device by several hundred years as soon as it was realized that there were other worlds than this one human beings wanted to reach them tracing the history of the many imaginative and often prescient attempts to solve this problem also reflects the history of technology science astronomy and engineering once space travel became feasible there were many more spacecraft concepts developed than ever got off the drawing board or off the ground for that matter these also are described in theis book for the same reason as the pre space age and pre flight ideas are they are all accurate reflections of their particular era s dreams abilities and knowledge virtually every spaceship concept invented since as well as selected events important in developing the idea of extraterrestrial travel is listed chronologically the chronological entries allow comparisons between actual astronautical events and speculative ventures they also allow comparisons between simultaneous events taking place in different countries they reveal connections influences and evolutions hitherto unsuspected every entry is accompanied by at least one illustration nearly every spacecraft concept is illustrated with a schematic drawing this allows accurate comparisons to be made between designss to visualize differences similarities and influences this text will be of interest to students of astronautical history and also to model builders who would be interested in the schematic diagrams science fiction fans as well as aviation history buffs and historians of science will also find this book to be fascinating the unique collection of illustrations makes it a visually attractive and very interesting history of the spaceship special features includes scale drawings of several hundred spacecraft both real and fictional contains scores of illustrations artwork drawings and photos contemporary with the subject this includes extremely rare illustrations from scarce books and novels exclusive photos and drawings fromsoviet spacecraft rare stills from both famous and obscure science fiction films and unpublished photographs from nasa archives an index bibliography and appendices are included contents part i the archaeology of the spaceship b c to a d part ii the invention of the spaceship part iii the experimenters part iv the world war part v the golden age of the spaceship part vi the dawn of the space age to the present about ron miller the brochure has a page of stuff here i ll try to hit the high spots former art director for albert einstein planetarium at smithsonian s national air and space museum member of international association for astronomical arts member of international astronautical association fellow of the british interplanetary society consulting editor for air space smithsonian magazine author co author editor or sole illustrator on many books since including space art cycles of fire the grand tour and many others as well as many articles and papers book jackets and interior art for over a dozen publishers contributor to ibm traveling exhibition and book blueprint for space production illustrator for movies dune and total recall designer of ten stamp set of commemorative space postage stamps for u s postal service in solar system exploration ordering information pre publication price before may afterwards price will be krieger publishing company po box melbourne fl usa direct order line fax add for shipping by ups within usa for first book for each additional book for foreign orders add for first book for each additional additional charges for airmail shipments o zap bill higgins fermi national accelerator laboratory bitnet higgins fnal bitnet internet higgins fnal fnal gov span hepnet physnet higgins
sci.space	dc x news static test firings are now scheduled for this saturday after many schedule changes it may be difficult to get test status during the next two weeks the number of contacts are drying up as they all go to new mexico go delta clipper
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky sichase csa lbl gov scott i chase writes pgf srl cacs usl edu phil g fraering writes jeff cook ftcollinsco ncr com jeff cook writes people in primitive tribes out in the middle of nowhere as they look up and see a can of budweiser flying across the sky d seen that movie already or one just like it come to think of it they might send someone on a quest to get rid of the dang thing in one of his lesser known books i can t remember which one right now the protagonists are in a balloon gondola travelling over africa on their way around the world in the balloon that s five weeks in a balloon and if anyone can tell me where to get it i sure would like a reply i ve been looking for that book for ten year and never found it note that i am not looking for a collector s item i m hoping that someone has published it in modern times either in paperback or hardcover i m willing to spend or so to get a copy keith mancus mancus butch jsc nasa gov n wvr mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov black powder and alcohol when your states and cities fall when your back s against the wall leslie fish
sci.space	re temperature of the dark sky in article c e g km well sf ca us metares well sf ca us tom van flandern writes the temperature of the night sky as seen from space you ll find that in allen c w astrophysical quantities athlone press dover nh rd edition pp i have a copy of allen and it never occurred to me to look in there i must be getting old i ll look it up when i get home thanks the temperature is degrees k i d remembered a rather higher number but that may have been for the lunar nearside where the earth is a significant heat source svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re temperature of the dark sky in article apr princeton edu richmond spiff princeton edu stupendous man writes henry if i read you correctly you may be asking if i put a blackbody in interstellar space disregarding the sun and nearby large warm objects what termperature will it reach in thermal equilibrium with the ambient radiation field basically the right question although i was interested in cases closer to home where the sun is behind either a natural object or effective shielding if that s the case let me point out that interstellar dust and molecules provide many instances of things that are well not too far from being blackbodies inside the disk of the galaxy the temperature varies quite a bit from place to place good point and thanks for the references svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re temperature of the dark sky in article apr princeton edu richmond spiff princeton edu stupendous man writes henry spencer writes does anyone have a reference something i can look up not just your own recollections i have a few of those myself on the temperature of the night sky as seen from space henry if i read you correctly you may be asking if i put a blackbody in interstellar space disregarding the sun and nearby large warm objects what termperature will it reach in thermal equilibrium with the ambient radiation field if that s the case let me point out that interstellar dust and molecules provide many instances of things that are well not too far from being blackbodies many different observations including iras and cobe have determined that interstellar dust grain temperatures can range from k to k yes but that s because interstellar grains are very poor radiators not remotely black bodies as a consequence they are a lot warmer than the ambient inside the disk of the galaxy the temperature varies quite a bit from place to place how close are you to the nearest ob association i would guess outside the galaxy of course things aren t so varied when i was in graduate school a long time ago we used deg k with a dilution factor of for representative values of the radiant energy background in the galaxy due to starlight ben
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters positional stuff in article apr vax mankato msus edu belgarath vax mankato msus edu writes actually my advisor another classmate of mine and me were talking the other day about putting just one detector on one of the pluto satellites then we realized that the satellite alone is only carrying something like pounds of eq well a batse detector needs lead shielding to protect it and alone weighs about pounds itself actually the situation is even worse than that the total mass of the pluto fast flyby spacecraft is only ish pounds and most of that is support equipment like power and communications the mass available for instruments is maybe of that i don t think a batse will fit actually would you need the shielding my understanding is that it s mostly there to give the detectors some directionality no point in doing that if you ve only got one i m sure the burst detectors that have flown on other deep space missions haven t weighed that much mind you they re probably still too heavy the pff people would put more pluto specific instruments on first if they had any mass to spare svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters how energetic could they be prb access digex com pat writes in article apr vax mankato msus edu belgarath vax mankato msus edu writes energetic for close by for the coronal model we found around erg sec and lastly for the cosmological model an l that s what you d call moderately energetic i d say any suggestions about what could put out that much energy in one second jeremy big capacitor real big capacitor it s been suggested specifically lightning strikes between clouds in the interstellar medium david m palmer palmer alumni caltech edu palmer tgrs gsfc nasa gov
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky in article apr aio jsc nasa gov mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov keith mancus writes that s five weeks in a balloon and if anyone can tell me where to get it i sure would like a reply i ve been looking for that book for ten year and never found it note that i am not looking for a collector s item i m hoping that someone has published it in modern times either in paperback or hardcover i m willing to spend or so to get a copy i too am a jules verne collector and can tell you that though tough to find it is out there i keep my eyes open all the time for his books at various bay area used book stores and every once in a while get very lucky you just need diligence i don t know if the book store situation near jsc is as good as the bay area but good luck i have also had excellent luck at the antiquarian book fair which comes to sf every other year though the prices are more in the range than the you want to spend my guess is that if you find it you won t need to spend even that much since most people don t care about it i think i paid about for my dust jacket less but otherwise good condition copy which i found one day at a small bookshop that happened to have just bought a lot of random books at an estate sale of course if you re willing to buy blind you can put a advertisement in the antiquarian bookseller s newsletter the exact title of which escapes me at the moment five weeks in a balloon is not the rarest of jules verne books someone has it for sale somewhere and the ab is the way to find it in fact i would be surprised if you didn t get multiple offers of sale of course that takes the fun out of hunting for it yourself good luck scott new sig under construction scott i chase please be patient sichase csa lbl gov thank you
sci.space	astronauts what does weightlessness feel like i understand the when one is in orbit the inward force of gravity at one s center of mass is exactly balanced by the outward centrifugal force from the orbiting motion resulting in weightlessness i want to know what weightlessness actually feels like for example is there a constant sensation of falling and what is the motion sickness that some astronauts occasionally experience please reply only if you are either a former or current astronaut or someone who has had this discussion first hand with an astronaut thanks jerry liebelson jlieb is morgan com compuserve com
sci.space	re hst servicing mission in article apr lambda msfc nasa gov bday lambda msfc nasa gov brian day writes rdouglas stsci edu rob douglas writes but try to land a shuttle with that big huge telescope in the back and you could have problems the shuttle just isn t designed to land with that much weight in the payload is hst really that much heavier than a spacelab i hate to belabor the obvious once again but if there had been an orbiter emergency in the early stages of the original hst deployment mission they would have had to land with hst in the bay indeed they were worried about that one concern was the possibility that they would lose a motor or something on the way up and make orbit but one that was too low to give hst a useful lifetime against atmospheric drag i believe the decision was to deploy hst even if the projected lifetime was as short as six months in fact we got an excellent orbit on the upper envelope of what the shuttle can do i have never heard of any serious consideration that hst might be brought down for refurbishment you would have the horrendous cost of transporting cleaning re testing and re certifying all the hardware on the ground in addition to the lost observing time and the cost of a second deployment mission with the risks that we might not get such a good orbit the second time and you would probably still need a third servicing mission in a few years as gyros and other components wear out better to have two servicing missions in space which could well happen than to bring hst down and take it up again ben
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days in apr lambda msfc nasa gov bday lambda msfc nasa gov brian day writes rdouglas stsci edu rob douglas writes but try to land a shuttle with that big huge telescope in the back and you could have problems the shuttle just isn t designed to land with that much weight in the payload is hst really that much heavier than a spacelab i can t speak to sheer mass but part of the problem is that hst wasn t built to ever be brought back down it s not built for those kinds of jolt forces and there is no support cradle for it which is additional weight that would be required insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
sci.space	re long term space voyanges and effect newsgroup in article c fie ty zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes in response to michael adams post i vote for a later on sci space medicine or similar newsgroup fro the discussion of long term missions into space and there affects on humans and such adams why bother with a new newsgroup if you want to discuss the subject start discussing it if there is enough traffic to annoy the rest of us we will let you know and then it will be time for a new newsgroup well here goes the first item of business is to establish the importance space life sciences in the whole of scheme of humankind i mean compared to football and baseball the average joe schmoe doesn t seem interested or even curious about spaceflight i think that this forum can make a major change in that lack of insight and education all of us in our own way can contribute to a comprehensive document which can be released to the general public around the world the document would scientifically analyze the technical aspects of long term human habitation in space i believe that if any long term space exploration program is to succeed we need to basically learn how to engineer our own microworld i e the spacecraft only through the careful analyses of engineering chemical biological and medical factors will a good ecosystem be created to facilitate human life on a long duration flight so i would like to see posts of opinions regarding the most objective methods to analyze the accepted scientific literature for technologies which can be applied to long duration spaceflight such a detailed literature search would be of interest to ourselves as space advocates and clearly important to existing space programs in essence we would be dividing the space life science issues into various technical problems which could be solved with various technologies this database of acceptable solutions to various problems could form the basis of detailed discussions involving people from the bionet isunet and any other source i m eager to hear your comments and see posts on this thread
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they prb access digex com pat writes we know it s not real close like slightly extra solar because we have no parallax measurements on the bursts we can only say that they are beyond about au due to the low accuracy of position determination by single detectors what i am wondering is this in people s opinion a new physics problem einstein got well known for solvingthe photoelectric effect copernicus started looking at irregularities in planetary motion is this a big enough problem to create a new area of physics just a little speculative thinking folks it may be a new physics problem i e a problem involving new physics however the data is not good enough to rule out the models which use old physics new physics is a big step and is only tolerated when there is no alternative for example the dark matter problem there s more to the universe than meets the eye is a question of comparable mystery to grbs but we have much better data regarding it theoreticians postulate new particles all the time to explain it but no one will actually believe that these particles are real until an experimentalist or several detects them in the lab david m palmer palmer alumni caltech edu palmer tgrs gsfc nasa gov
sci.space	re hyperknowledge in article apr embl heidelberg de tuparev embl heidelberg de georg tuparev writes announcement the hyperknowledge project for nextstep motivation we are a heterogeneous group of scientists and students who feel that our work is continuously hindered by computer environments dominated by incompatible scientific tools and monstrous software packages too often claiming to do everything what we need is an object oriented scientific environment where the tools we choose to use are integrated without being parts of a closed system highly interactive and extendable both by the addition of our own specialized objects and by combining the available tools graphically the use of such an environment should be a natural extension of our work requiring a very short learning phase and practically no user documentation i know this is kinda off the subject of sci space but not really i want to answer this for their as well as everyone else s information what these people are proposing by and large already exists and can be purchased today it is called labview by national instruments it is a wonderful object oriented graphical programming language it has been implemented on both mac s pc s and vme unix boxes it is fare superior to any programming approach that i have ever seen and allowed us to decrease the software development time for our shuttle payloads by percent this program is not dependendant on specific hardware and already has exensive analysis capability why re invent the wheel on a platform that may not exist it is a great idea but look out there at what is available today the hydrogen leak on the shuttle was found using this software all ssme control and simulation studies along with the real testing at msfc is handled with labview there are tons of applications with the ability to create virtual instruments that can accomplish any specific custom task the maker desires with the addition of ieee support the computer becomes a virtual control station allowing the graphic representation of remote instrumentation with serial i o support that instrument can be anywhere the ground control software for the main control of sedsat will utilize this approach dennis university of alabama in huntsville
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they in article rlrpv ta access digex net prb access digex com pat writes is this a big enough problem to create a new area of physics just a little speculative thinking folks pat well pat for once i agree with you and i like your first idea that you had it probably is the gamma ray signature of the warp transitions of interstellar spacecraft well it makes as much sense as some things i was at the first gamma ray burst conference here at uah and had great fun watching the discomfiture of many of the gamma ray scientists much scruitiny was given to the data reductions i remember one person in particular who passionately declared that the data was completely wrong as there were no explanation for the phenomena of the smooth sky distribution heck it even shoots down the warp transition theory the next conference is soon and i will endeavour to keep in touch with this fun subject dennis
sci.space	re political banner in space u penelope sdsc edu jeff bytof sio writes i propose that pepsico mcdonalds and other companies could put into orbit banners that have timely political messages such as stop the slaughter in bosnia or how about end light pollution now your banner would have no effect on its subject but my banner would david m palmer palmer alumni caltech edu palmer tgrs gsfc nasa gov
sci.space	space surveillance one of the main reasons nations like the us and russia observe satellite that have been launched is forbs system whick loft nuclear bombs into orbit which are planned to be detonated in leo causing emp pulses interfering with the target command and control system
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they in article apr stdvax gsfc nasa gov abdkw stdvax gsfc nasa gov david ward writes given that fact and the spacecraft attitude knowledge of approx arcmin we might be able to figure out how well batse can determine the location rotational of a gamma ray burster from knowledge of the all sky map s accuracy pr material for the other three instruments give accuracies on the order of fractions of a degree if that s any help but i believe that there is a fundamental difference here the other x three instruments are focusing instruments that more or less form an image so positional errors are limited by craft attitude and the resolving power of the optics batse is an altogether different beast effectively just coincidence counters one on each corner of the craft positional information is triangulated from the differential signal arrival times at each of the detectors positional error would be predominantly determined by timing errors and errors in craft attitude since none of the baste detectors have any independant angular resolution whatsoever they can not be used to determine parallax indeed parallax would just add a very small component to the positional error demonstrating that these puppies are beyond the oort cloud would require resolution on the order of arcseconds since the oort cloud is postulated to extend to about parsec all together now parallax arc second a parsec is the distance of an object that demonstrates one arc second of parallax with a au base line if the degree accuracy reported above is true we re going to have to add a baste to the pluto fast flyby to get enough baseline the beauty of baste is that it both gives positional information and watches the entire sky simultaneously a realy handy combination when you have no idea where the next burst is coming from kevin
sci.space	re what planets are habitable in apr arc ug eds com steveg arc ug eds com writes in article c w iyd fs ece cmu edu loss fs ece cmu edu doug loss writes dandridge cole and isaac asimov collaborated on a book titled habitable planets for man i think in it should be available in most good libraries or through inter library loan this is the high school science version the original rand study by stephen h dole planets for man gives the harder numbers graphs such but predates michael hart s later work on continuously habitable zones is this still in print or available other than on loan i remember reading this many years ago and it s still the best thing i remember in this vein insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days in article apr samba oit unc edu bruce scott launchpad unc edu bruce scott writes if re boosting the hst by carrying it with a shuttle would not damage it then why couldn t hst be brought back to earth and the repair job done here i m not sure if this is a big issue but it seems to me like it might be up till now all g forces applied to the mirror and its mounting and nearly all g forces have been applied along the telescope s optical axis and against the mirror s base reentry would apply forces along roughly the same axis but tending to pull the mirror away from the mount and the landing would apply on edge forces to both the mirror and mount it could be that one or both of these would not survive greg greg titus gbt zia cray com compiler group cray research inc santa fe nm opinions expressed herein such as they are are purely my own
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they in article rmh einn h gap caltech edu kwp wag caltech edu kevin w plaxco writes resolving power of the optics batse is an altogether different beast effectively just coincidence counters one on each corner of the craft positional information is triangulated from the differential signal arrival times at each of the detectors obviously not count rates are too low and signal rise times too long for this to be possible the cgro is what meters long you d need to time to an accuracy of nanoseconds to do this what batse actually does is measure the relative strength in each of the detectors also as a function of photon energy each of the detectors does not have isotropic response to do this right one must model the scattering of photons in the material around each detector and even scattering of photons off the earth s atmosphere back onto the spacecraft i believe they have now reduced the error to about degrees paul f dietz dietz cs rochester edu
sci.space	re astronauts what does weightlessness feel like in article apr is morgan com jlieb is morgan com jerry liebelson writes i want to know what weightlessness actually feels like for example is there a constant sensation of falling yes weightlessness does feel like falling it may feel strange at first but the body does adjust the feeling is not too different from that of sky diving and what is the motion sickness that some astronauts occasionally experience it is the body s reaction to a strange environment it appears to be induced partly to physical discomfort and part to mental distress some people are more prone to it than others like some people are more prone to get sick on a roller coaster ride than others the mental part is usually induced by a lack of clear indication of which way is up or down ie the shuttle is normally oriented with its cargo bay pointed towards earth so the earth or ground is above the head of the astronauts about of the astronauts experience some form of motion sickness and nasa has done numerous tests in space to try to see how to keep the number of occurances down ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab m s telos the aweto from new zealand pasadena ca is part caterpillar and part vegetable
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters positional stuff henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes in article apr vax mankato msus edu belgarath vax mankato msus edu writes actually my advisor another classmate of mine and me were talking the other day about putting just one detector on one of the pluto satellites then we realized that the satellite alone is only carrying something like pounds of eq well a batse detector needs lead shielding to protect it and alone weighs about pounds itself actually the situation is even worse than that the total mass of the pluto fast flyby spacecraft is only ish pounds and most of that is support equipment like power and communications the mass available for instruments is maybe of that i don t think a batse will fit from the pluto fast flyby instrument definition research anouncemnet the instrument payload constraints are mass allocation kilograms lbs power allocation watts required instruments visible imaging system x ccd mm fl f optics ir mapping spectrometer x hgcdte array energy resolution uv spectrometer nm nm resolution radio science ultrastable oscilator incorporated in telecom system ultrastable means this doesn t leave much room for payloads which are totally unrelated to the mission of the spacecraft in addition the power will come from a radioisotope thermal generator and the whole space craft will be about feet in diameter with no booms which means there will be strong gamma lines from pu and associated schmutz in the background which tends to reduce sensitivity somewhat it would still be nice and our group here at goddard is looking in to it david m palmer palmer alumni caltech edu palmer tgrs gsfc nasa gov
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they kwp wag caltech edu kevin w plaxco writes in article apr stdvax gsfc nasa gov abdkw stdvax gsfc nasa gov david ward writes demonstrating that these puppies are beyond the oort cloud would require resolution on the order of arcseconds since the oort cloud is postulated to extend to about parsec all together now parallax arc second a parsec is the distance of an object that demonstrates one arc second of parallax with a au base line according to my glossary of astronomy and astrophysics parsec abbreviation for parallax second the distance at which one astronomical unit subtends an angle of second of arc pc au x km lt yr george george krumins the serpent and the rainbow gfk uxa cso uiuc edu pufferfish observatory o
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days in article apr mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com fred j mccall writes in apr lambda msfc nasa gov bday lambda msfc nasa gov brian day writes rdouglas stsci edu rob douglas writes but try to land a shuttle with that big huge telescope in the back and you could have problems the shuttle just isn t designed to land with that much weight in the payload is hst really that much heavier than a spacelab i can t speak to sheer mass but part of the problem is that hst wasn t built to ever be brought back down it s not built for those kinds of jolt forces and there is no support cradle for it which is additional weight that would be required just to throw it out there the mass of the telescope is kg lb i do not know what space lab weighs but i believe it is less can anyone verify also remember that weight was not the only concern as many others have noted just one possible concern i was responding to a statement that if you can boost it why can t you land it those are too different problems rob rob douglas space san martin drive ai software engineer telescope baltimore md usa advance planning systems branch science phone internet rdouglas stsci edu institute fax disclaimer type thingie these opinions are mine unless of course they fall under the standard intellectual property guidelines but with my intellect i doubt it besides if it was useful intellectual property do you think i would type it in here rob douglas space san martin drive ai software engineer telescope baltimore md usa advance planning systems branch science phone
sci.space	displaying compressed voyager images on a mac sorry i ve lost track of who asked the question originally our news server at gsfc keeps things around for tremendously short periods of time but wanted to be certain before i replied someone asked about displaying the compressed images from the voyager imaging cd roms on a mac as peter ford mit pointed out a decompression program is available via ftp sorry i don t remember the name of the node offhand although it s mit edu in any case though one of the mac display programs cd rom browser by dana swift does display the compressed images directly the program is shareware and is distributed by nssdc for nominal reproduction costs shipping if memory serves this does not cover the shareware price which should go to dana for his diligent work and upgrades however to request current pricing information information about available display software catalogs or data from nssdc contact our user support office at national space science data center coordinated request and user support office cruso mail code nasa goddard space flight center greenbelt md phone fax dr edwin v bell ii e mail mail code span ncf bell national space science or nssdc bell data center or nssdca bell nasa or nssdcb bell goddard space flight center internet bell nssdca gsfc nasa gov greenbelt md
sci.space	mars exploration lecture the aiaa san gabriel valley section is sponsoring the following lecture on mars exploration at the jet propulsion lab admission is free and open to the public the next frontier the challenge of mars exploration date may time pm pm location von karman auditorium jet propulsion lab oak grove drive pasadena california the following five speakers will be featured a science fiction perspective tom mcdonaugh science fiction writer mars observer dr arden albee project scientist mars observer jpl mars dr arthur l lane instrument manager mars jpl mars environmental survey mesur richard cook mission designer jpl manned mission to mars dr robert zubrin senior engineer martin marietta astronautics for more information contact aiaa at or mark leon at ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab m s telos the aweto from new zealand pasadena ca is part caterpillar and part vegetable
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov keith mancus writes jeff cook ftcollinsco ncr com jeff cook writes people in primitive tribes out in the middle of nowhere as they look up that has sort of happened for real back in the s travellers in the sudan would find strange cigar shaped designs on native huts when asked the locals would say it was a picture of the great omen that appeared in the sky this was lz a zepplin flying from bulgaria to german east africa with supplies in and back since it was fooled by the british secret service dave stephenson geological survey of canada ottawa ontario canada internet stephens geod emr ca
sci.space	re long term human missions in article apr wisipc weizmann ac il ward pashosh wisdom weizmann ac il ward paul wrote calculators teflon so your eggs don t stick in the pan pacemakers kept my grandfather alive from until i don t think touting contributions is a good idea world war ii produced many many beneficial spinoffs eg radar jet aeroplanes rocket technology i don t think anyone would argue that world war ii was in and of itself a good thing if you want people to back the space program it must be a good thing in and of itself i disagree with what to tout although i agree that the space program is inherently a good thing most people today only care about what will it cost me and what s in it for me and could care less about whether something is simply worthwhile in and of itself our society has become increasingly geared toward the short term which you could read as now they couldn t care less about next week much less next century they want something to show for the expenditure and they want it now i think we should tell them about the things that they are using now that are spinoffs of the space program that is the only way you can prove its worth to them and they vote and pay taxes too the continued existence of the space program relies upon that money just my btw don t forget velcro bcnu john gladu systems support center baylor college of medicine internet jgladu bcm tmc edu voice us mail one baylor plaza houston texas opinions expressed are just that obviously
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they in article steinly apr topaz ucsc edu steinly topaz ucsc edu steinn sigurdsson writes the problem with oort cloud sources is that absolutely no plausible mechanism has been proposed it would have to involve new physics as far as i can tell closest to conventional oort sources is a model of b field pinching by comets it s got too many holes in it to count but at least it was a good try so you have a plausible model for grb s at astronomical distances recent observations have just about ruled out the merging neutron star hypothesis which had a lot of problems anyhow we have to look for implausible models and what is fundamentally allowed independent of models a paper on the possibility of grb s in the oort cloud just came through the astrophysics abstract service to get a copy of this paper send a message to astro ph babbage sissa it with the subject line get here is the abstract of that paper the currently favored explanation for the origin of grbs puts them at cosmological distances but as long as there is no distance indicator to these events all possible sources which are isotropically distributed should remain under consideration this is why the oort cloud of comets is kept on the list although there is no known mechanism for generating grbs from cometary nuclei unlikely as it may seem the possibility that grbs originate in the solar cometary cloud cannot be excluded until it is disproved we use the available data on the distribution of grbs the batse catalogue up to march and the catalogue of cometary orbits by marsden and williams to investigate whether there is any observational indication for correlations between the angular distributions of grbs and comets aphelia assuming that the distribution of aphelia direction reflect at least to some extent true variations in the column density of the oort cloud we also apply the vov test to both distributions we have performed a variety of statistical tests a kolmogorov smirnov test for the distributions in galactic latitude a chi test for the spherical multiple moments and a d cross correlation analysis including testing sub samples for isolating the effect of possible observational biases these tests imply that it is unlikely that the two distributions agree but the statistical significance is not sufficient for ruling out any connection with complete confidence we performed monte carlo simulations which show that only when the number of bursts exceeds sim it is possible to rule out a correlation between the angular distributions currently it is only the combination of these tests with the large disagreement found for the vov parameter which makes the oort cloud of comets unlikely to be related to grbs
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky in article apr csa lbl gov sichase csa lbl gov scott i chase writes in article pgf srl cacs usl edu pgf srl cacs usl edu phil g fraering writes jeff cook ftcollinsco ncr com jeff cook writes people in primitive tribes out in the middle of nowhere as they look up and see a can of budweiser flying across the sky d seen that movie already actually the idea like most good ideas comes from jules verne not the gods must be crazy my comment was off the top of my head i wasn t aware that it had already been thought of guess it s true that there s nothing new under the sun or in this case the flying billboards jeff cook jeff cook ftcollinsco ncr com
sci.space	two line orbital element set space shuttle the most current orbital elements from the norad two line element sets are carried on the celestial bbs and are updated daily when possible documentation and tracking software are also available on this system as a service to the satellite user community the most current elements for the current shuttle mission are provided below the celestial bbs may be accessed hours day at or bps using data bits stop bit no parity element sets also updated daily shuttle elements and some documentation and software are also available via anonymous ftp from archive afit af mil in the directory pub space sts u a dr ts kelso assistant professor of space operations tkelso afit af mil air force institute of technology
sci.space	re temperature of the dark sky does anyone have a reference something i can look up not just your own recollections i have a few of those myself on the temperature of the night sky as seen from space note i am not talking about the temperature of the microwave background radiation there are more things in the sky than just the mbr what i m after is total blackbody temperature what a thermal radiator would see disregarding or shielding against the sun and nearby large warm objects i m not sure if this will help you but the local interstellar radiation field has been measured and modeled by various groups if i remember things correctly the models involved contributions from three different bb sources so there s no obvious temperature of background radiation in our local area however the following references give the interstellar radiation density as a function of wavelength and you can integrate and average in an appropriate manner to get an effective temperature if you like witt and johnson astrophys j henry et al astrophys j mathis et al astron astrophys as you can see the references are out of date but they might get you started hope this helps julie
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they in article ethanb apr ptolemy astro washington edu ethanb ptolemy astro washington edu ethan bradford writes in article steinly apr topaz ucsc edu steinly topaz ucsc edu steinn sigurdsson writes the problem with oort cloud sources is that absolutely no plausible mechanism has been proposed it would have to involve new physics as far as i can tell closest to conventional oort sources is a model of b field pinching by comets it s got too many holes in it to count but at least it was a good try so you have a plausible model for grb s at astronomical distances i don t have any plausible models for grbs at any distances recent observations have just about ruled out the merging neutron star hypothesis which had a lot of problems anyhow we have to look for implausible models and what is fundamentally allowed independent of models hmm the superbowl burst has been claimed in press releases to cast doubt on the merging ns hypothesis from what i ve read and i haven t seen the papers only the press i d say it is consistent with some of the merging ns models a paper on the possibility of grb s in the oort cloud just came through the astrophysics abstract service to get a copy of this here is the abstract of that paper indicator to these events all possible sources which are isotropically distributed should remain under consideration this is why the oort cloud of comets is kept on the list although there is no known mechanism for generating grbs from cometary nuclei unlikely as it may seem the possibility that grbs originate in the solar cometary cloud cannot be excluded until it is disproved this does not propose a mechanism for grbs in the oort and no anti matter annihilation does not fit the spectra at least as far as i understand annihilation spectra big difference that s ignoring the question of how you fit a distribution to the oort distribution when the oort distribution is not well known in particular comet aphelia which are not well known are not a good measure of the oort cloud distribution steinn sigurdsson lick observatory steinly lick ucsc edu standard disclaimer the laws of gravity are very very strict and you re just bending them for your own benefit b b
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky i m wondering if vandalize is the proper word to use in this situation my dictionary defines vandalism as the willful or malicious destructuion of public or private property especially of anything beautiful or artisitc i would agree the sky is beautiful but not that it is public or private property i personally prefer natural skies far from city lights and sans aircraft however there is also something to be said for being able to look up into the sky and see a satellite many people get a real kick out of it especially if they haven t seen one before josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find a way or make one attributed to hannibal
sci.space	mars observer update forwarded from the mars observer project mars observer status report april pm pdt flight sequence c is active as of am tuesday april with activities beginning at shortly before am yesterday c commanded the spacecraft to execute a series of slews and rolls to provide the mag magnetometer team data points in varying spacecraft attitudes and orientations for the purpose of better characterizing the spacecraft generated magnetic field and its effect on their instrument the spacecraft was commanded back to sun star init state at am to re establish inertial reference transition back to array normal spin began at am after which the sequence powered on the on board transmitter at am telemetry reacquisition occurred at approximately am at the kbs science and engineering downlink data rate on the high gain antenna subsystem engineers report that all systems appear to be nominal the command to terminate using the low gain antenna for uplink was sent at pm uplink and downlink are currently via the hga mag calibration data has been recorded on digital tape recorders and playback of dtr is scheduled to take place tomorrow morning between am and pm playback of dtr is scheduled to take place tomorrow evening beginning at pm and ending at am on friday dtr playback will be performed via the high gain antenna at bits per second upon verification of successful dtr playbacks downlink will be maintained at the k s e rate the mag cal activity timeline ends at shortly before am on friday morning ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab m s telos the aweto from new zealand pasadena ca is part caterpillar and part vegetable
sci.space	re level from harrisd ll mit edu david harris message id aa ll mit edu to wingert vnet ibm com subject re level shuttle software work bret if you are familiar with the software work that received the level rating could you post a description of it and or some references i think many people would be interested to know just what the ibm team on that effort is doing differently from most other organizations projects that earned them that rating i am familiar with the project it is the onboard shuttle flight software project this software controls the space shuttle during all dynamic phases as well as on orbit it has ultra high reliability and extremely low error rates there have been several papers published on the subject and i ll collect some references there may be an article in the ibm systems journal late early there is no magic formula we did it with dedicated and disciplined folks who worked to put together a process that finds and removes errors and is corrected based on errors that escape we present a one day overview of our process periodically to interested folks the next one is may th in washington d c i can fax specifics to those who are interested bret wingert wingert vnet ibm com fax
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they in article rmh einn h gap caltech edu kwp wag caltech edu kevin w plaxco writes in article apr stdvax gsfc nasa gov abdkw stdvax gsfc nasa gov david ward writes but i believe that there is a fundamental difference here the other x three instruments are focusing instruments that more or less form an image so positional errors are limited by craft attitude and the resolving power of the optics batse is an altogether different beast effectively just coincidence counters one on each corner of the craft positional information is triangulated from the differential signal arrival times at each of the detectors this is not quite right the differential arrival time techinique requires interplanetary baselines to get good positions the differential arrival at the eight detectors differ by s of nanoseconds this is smaller than batse s microsecond timing capabilities batse ulysses and mars obsverver are used for this technique each batse detector does not have a full sky field of view the sensitivity of each detector decreases with increasing angle of incidence the burst position on the sky is determined by comparing the count rates in different detectors pat
sci.space	re command loss timer re galileo update in article apr bnr ca jcobban bnr ca jim cobban writes having read in the past about the fail safe mechanisms on spacecraft i had assumed that the command loss timer had that sort of function however i always find disturbing the oxymoron of a no op command that does something if the command changes the behavior or status of the spacecraft it is not a no op command i know its semantics but the no op doesn t do anything the command loss timer is simply looking for a command any command a no op is simply a spacecraft command that drops bits into the big bit bucket in the sky no op also get used as timekeepers to provide millisecond delays between command sequences used on the thruster preps on gro er compton and to verify command links at the beginning of tdrs events all in all a rather useful command and an intelligent fdc test on galileo the command loss timer david w gsfc still looking for gro data even though i m the wrong david
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days in article apr samba oit unc edu bruce scott launchpad unc edu bruce scott writes if re boosting the hst by carrying it with a shuttle would not damage it then why couldn t hst be brought back to earth and the repair job done here is it because two shuttle flights would be required adding to the alredy horrendous expense i don t think a reboost exercise is analogous to a shuttle landing launch in terms of stresses misalignments etc i would think of the reboost as a gentile push where a landing then launch as two jolts which would put more mechanical stress on the instruments additionally there might be a concern about landing loads to the shuttle in the event of a laden landing finally probably some thought went into possible contamination problems if the instruments came back to earth of course the cost of two shuttle launches is a good reason to avoid something that might be done in one shuttle launch here s hoping cepi s gang gets the job done right the first time david w gsfc i used to work for frank cepollina
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days in apr lambda msfc nasa gov bday lambda msfc nasa gov brian day writes rdouglas stsci edu rob douglas writes but try to land a shuttle with that big huge telescope in the back and you could have problems the shuttle just isn t designed to land with that much weight in the payload is hst really that much heavier than a spacelab hst is about lbs kg that doesn t include the cradle that would have been in the cargo bay when it was deployed spacelab j on sts was lbs according to the press kit as someone else pointed out if they had been unable to deploy it for some reason that would have had to land with it still in the cargo bay and this was a planned for contingency this is not a problem for the shuttle though it would eliminate ksc as a landing site they still have to go to edwards when landing with something like spacelab in the cargo bay garym gary morris internet garym alsys com teleuse development uucp uunet alsys com garym alsys group telesoft phone x san diego ca usa fax
sci.space	interstellar t is k notes on pluto charon talk and pluto mission sci space readers can skip the first paragraph yesterday in response to henry spencer s question about the temperature of a blackbody in interstellar space i said dust grains acts as blackbodies and they re at k well i was dead wrong our local interstellar dust expert bruce draine has informed me that dust grains aren t good radiators in the far ir which is why they are so warm actually the ambient radiation field from distant stars can bring a true blackbody to only or kelvin sorry henry and anyone else i misled obviously time for me to take another ism class in other news alan stern of the southwest research institute gave a talk on the pluto charon binary system yesterday he gave a brief overview of the currently accepted system parameters volume ratio of about mass ratio about or so plus lots more and then gave his thoughts on the formation of pluto charon his idea is that there were lots and lots of small planetesimals in the outer solar system with masses distributed as a power law of some kind over time the planetesimals accreted into larger bodies most got scattered out of the solar system by close encounters with jupiter and saturn but many accreted into the gas giants especially uranus and neptune a large planetesimal was captured by neptune we call it triton captured how perhaps by a collision with a smaller already existing neptunian moon perhaps by a very close passage through neptune s atmosphere mondo aerobraking he notes that the two recently discovered kuiper belt objects qb and fw plus chiron and pholus are all about the same mass and he identifies this group as one accretion down from the larger bodies of triton and pluto charon pluto charon he thinks formed when an impacting body hit proto pluto knocking some material into a ring around pluto which later accreted in charon similar to ideas about the formation of earth s moon there is good evidence from spectra that the surfaces of pluto and charon are very different pluto has methane frost charon doesn t which can be used as evidence for the impact theory he believes that there may be around pluto to chiron sized objects remaining in a relatively stable dynamical zone just outside neptune s orbit beyond au or so qb and fw are the first members of this population to be found in his model note that such bodies will be very dark since if their surfaces are covered with methane frost it will have photolyzed into very dark long chain hydrocarbons by now the reason that pluto has such a high albedo around i think is that its surface warms up just enough around perihelion to sublimate and when the atmosphere freezes out again thirty years later it forms bright new frost so any bodies much farther away than au are going to be very hard to see i hope i haven t made any errors in the transcription if you see a howling mistake it s undoubtedly mine not his by the way he s one of the top guns behind the pluto fast flyby mission i think and said that the current plans are to use a titan to send the probe on just about a rectilinear trajectory to pluto we were speaking loosely at the time he d like to use a proton which gives a slightly smaller velocity but costs much less his figures million for titan launches there will be two separate probes launched separately or million for proton launches he told a story about how the soviets originally offered to sell proton launches for million each but were forced to increase their prices in the us in order to be allowed in the marketplace i m just telling you what he said michael michael richmond this is the heart that broke my finger richmond astro princeton edu
sci.space	re long term human missions in article apr rpslmc edu rek siss robert kaye writes just a few contributions from the space program to regular society calculators teflon so your eggs don t stick in the pan sorry to split hairs but i just read in the making of the atomic bomb that teflon was developed during world war a sealant was needed for the tubing in which uranium hexafluoride passed as it was gradually enriched by difussion uf is very corrosive and some very inert yet flexible material was needed for the seals pacemakers kept my grandfather alive from until alejo hausner hausner qucis queensu ca richard rhodes the making of the atomic bomb simon and
sci.space	re command loss timer re galileo update in article apr bnr ca jcobban bnr ca jim cobban writes having read in the past about the fail safe mechanisms on spacecraft i had assumed that the command loss timer had that sort of function however i always find disturbing the oxymoron of a no op command that does something if the command changes the behavior or status of the spacecraft it is not a no op command of course this terminology comes from a jet propulsion laboratory which has nothing to do with jet propulsion i don t know where you got this idea from jpl s history dates back to to the s when a caltech professor named von karman conducted experiments in rocket propulsion with a group of graduate students on the present site of the jet propulsion laboratory the army started funding the laboratory and had jurisdiction untill the late s when nasa took over the early research conducted at the laboratory led to many applications the first being jet assisted takeoff rockets for aircraft i think this should explain where jpl got it s name i should know i worked there for five wonderful years mike jim cobban jcobban bnr ca phone bnr ltd bnrgate bnr ca bcars jcobban fax
sci.space	galileo update forwarded from neal ausman galileo mission director galileo mission director status report post launch april spacecraft on april and delta differenced one way range dor passes were performed over dss goldstone madrid meter antennas and dss goldstone canberra meter antennas respectively initial results indicate the delta dor pass on april was unsuccessful due to ground station hardware problems but the one on april was successfully performed on april a cruise science memory readout mro was performed for the magnetometer mag instrument analysis indicates the data was received properly on april the spare power relay contacts were commanded closed via the spacecraft stored sequence these relays were commanded closed by the cds command data subsystem prior to launch and were again commanded closed to preclude the possibility at jupiter of the pps relays wiring being a source of internal electrostatic charge iesd on april cruise science memory readouts mro were performed for the extreme ultraviolet spectrometer euv dust detector dds and magnetometer mag instruments preliminary analysis indicates the data was received properly during the period from april to april a navigation cycle was performed this navigation cycle provided near continuous acquisition of two way doppler and ranging data during three consecutive passes of the spacecraft over dss dss and dss on april real time commands were sent to test slew the radio relay antenna rra in preparation for the mini sequence slew test on april the rra was slewed from approximately degrees from stow to approximately degrees preliminary analysis indicated the antenna slewed to about degrees which was well within the predicted range the rra was commanded back to approximately degrees from stow preliminary analysis indicated the antenna reached about degrees also well within the predicted range the rra motor temperature was at degree c at the start of the activity and had increased to degrees c at its completion after verifying proper rra slewing the rra slew test mini sequence was uplinked to the spacecraft for execution on april upon successful uplink a delayed action command dac was sent which will reposition the stator on may to its initial pre test position also a dac was sent to turn the two way noncoherent twnc on april prior to the start of the rra slew test mini sequence on april a no op command was sent to reset the command loss timer to hours its planned value during this mission phase on april the rra slew test executed nominally the spacecraft under stored sequence control performed six rra slews starting at about degrees from stow and going to degrees back to degrees then to degrees back to degrees then to degrees and then back to degrees all of the slews were well within the predicted range the rra motor temperature was at degrees c at the start of the activity and had increased to degrees c at its completion after completion of the rra slews real time commands were sent to reconfigure back to the pre test configuration the ac dc bus imbalance measurements have not exhibited significant change greater than dn throughout this period the ac measurement reads dn volts the dc measurement reads dn volts these measurements are consistent with the model developed by the ac dc special anomaly team the spacecraft status as of april is as follows a system power margin watts b spin configuration dual spin c spin rate sensor rpm star scanner d spacecraft attitude is approximately degrees off sun lagging and degrees off earth leading e downlink telemetry rate antenna bps coded lga f general thermal control all temperatures within acceptable range g rpm tank pressures all within acceptable range h orbiter science instruments powered on are the pws euv uvs epd mag hic and dds i probe rrh powered off temperatures within acceptable range j cmd loss timer setting hours time to initiation hours gds ground data systems the first galileo gds test of the mgds v command system cmd took place april with dss madrid meter antenna the test went well and demonstrated that the new command system interfaced with the new dsn deep space network group command processor assembly cpa the test was successful and the next test for v cmd is scheduled for may with dss goldstone meter antenna the april system engineers monthly report semr ground system development office gsdo mmr was conducted thursday april a review of current project and institutional dsn and moso system status was conducted on going cruise development plus the gsdo phase and delivery schedules past months accomplishments and potential problem areas were discussed no significant schedule changes or significant problems were reported trajectory as of noon thursday april the galileo spacecraft trajectory status was as follows distance from earth km au distance from sun km au heliocentric speed km per hour distance from jupiter km round trip light time minutes seconds special topic as of april a total of real time commands have been transmitted to galileo since launch of these were initiated in the sequence design process and initiated in the real time command process in the past week real time commands were transmitted were initiated in the sequence design process and one initiated in the real time command process major command activities included commands to perform the initial rra slew test uplink the rra slew test mini sequence dacs to reposition the stator and turn the twnc on reset the command loss timer and execute the rra slew test ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab m s telos the aweto from new zealand pasadena ca is part caterpillar and part vegetable
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they prb access digex com pat writes we know it s not real close like slightly extra solar because we have no parallax measurements on the bursts correct we have no parallax measurements on the bursts therefore we can t tell whether they re slightly extra solar or not which means that parallax can t tell us whether or not it s real close phil fraering seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man
sci.space	re hyperknowledge in article apr judy uh edu wingo cspara decnet fedex msfc nasa gov writes in article apr embl heidelberg de tuparev embl heidelberg de georg tuparev writes announcement the hyperknowledge project for nextstep i know this is kinda off the subject of sci space but not really i want to answer this for their as well as everyone else s information what these people are proposing by and large already exists and can be purchased today it is called labview by national instruments it is a wonderful object it is a wonderful object oriented graphical programming language some lines deleted i am afraid you are mis directed nextstep is an operating system as opposed to a package i have read a little about it but since steve jobs does not seem to have the marketing capabilities of bill gates my info is limited probably why the far inferior windows nt is going to be more widely distributed but that is another flame ridden story some of the innovative features of nextstep are binary compatibility across platforms eg you can just copy your program from a sparc to a pc and it would run as opposed to buying the version of the package ported to a pc graphical object oriented design its all wsiwig postscript supports parallel hetrogeneous processing and best of all it is based around the mach micro kernel so you can make it look like unix with x or dos or nt or even vms if you feel the need no package out there comes even close i hope people will subscribe to the hyperknowledge project and nextstep finally takes off in my lifetime mail dr ata etemadi blackett laboratory space and atmospheric physics group imperial college of science technology and medicine internet arpanet earn bitnet atae spva ph ic ac uk or ata c mssl ucl ac uk span spva atae or msslc atae
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they ethanb ptolemy astro washington edu ethan bradford writes u wampyr cc uow edu au walker andrew john writes also if they did come from the oort cloud we would expect to see the same from other stars oort clouds that s a very good point perhaps none of the nearby stars have oort clouds alpha centauri is a multiple star system you wouldn t expect an oort cloud in it sure about that maybe proxima might cause problems but at oort cloud distances ac a and ac b together look like a point source besides even the solar system s oort cloud is unstable over geologic time right and needs to be replentished from somewhere else like the short period comets of the kupier belt or maybe i m misremembering something i read or heard somewhere what s the nearest single star that is likely to have a planetary system until we re able to perform a broad band survey of nearby stars to detect planets we won t know enough to say whether or not a single star has planets and we re likely to find out about the close ones first heck if neutron stars can have planets anything can have planets or was that discovery disconfirmed phil fraering seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters positional stuff belgarath vax mankato msus edu writes actually my advisor another classmate of mine and me were talking the other day about putting just one detector on one of the pluto satellites then we realized that the satellite alone is only carrying something like pounds of eq well a batse detector needs lead shielding to protect it and alone weighs about pounds itself we decided against it jeremy are you talking about a single batse component or the whole thing you could propose a batse probe launch two or three with ion drive on various planetary trajectories your resolution increaces the more they re spaced apart you could probably cheaply eject them from the solar system with enough flybys and patience things would start out slow then slowly get better and better resolution phil fraering seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man
sci.space	two line orbital element set space shuttle the most current orbital elements from the norad two line element sets are carried on the celestial bbs and are updated daily when possible documentation and tracking software are also available on this system as a service to the satellite user community the most current elements for the current shuttle mission are provided below the celestial bbs may be accessed hours day at or bps using data bits stop bit no parity element sets also updated daily shuttle elements and some documentation and software are also available via anonymous ftp from archive afit af mil in the directory pub space sts u a dr ts kelso assistant professor of space operations tkelso afit af mil air force institute of technology
sci.space	why not give billion to first year long moon residents original to wats scicom alphacdc com g day wats scicom alphacdc com apr wats scicom alphacdc com wrote to all wac wats scicom alphacdc com bruce watson via kralizec wac the apollo program cost something like billion at a time when wac the value of a dollar was worth more than it is now no one would wac take the offer if we assume inflation since that b would be worth about b gd reckon a moon mission today could cost only b thats a factor of ten reduction in cost it might be possible to reduce that number futher by using a few shortcuts russian rockets asuming it gets built i think the delta clipper could very well achive the goal ta ralph golded origin vulcan s world sydney australia
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days regarding the feasability of retrieving the hst for repair and relaunching it caution speculation mode engaged there is another consideration that hasn t been mentioned yet i expect that retrieving hst would involve damaging it considerably in order to return it to its cradle in the cargo bay most of the deployed items antennas and especially the solar arays probably are not retractable into their fully stowed position even by hand they would have to be removed by the astronauts the only advantage that this might yield is that we could put new panels on that don t ring due to thermal cycle stresses i also expect that as has been discussed the landing loads on the hst optics structure is a big issue but that the reentry loads are much less so can the moveable optical components even be re caged i assume that they were caged for launch michael corvin zwork starfighter den mmc com gn c r d martin marietta astronautics my views not martin marietta s
sci.space	re long term space voyanges and effect newsgroup in article rp ht g hsc usc edu khayash hsc usc edu ken hayashida writes the first item of business is to establish the importance space life sciences in the whole of scheme of humankind i mean compared to football and baseball the average joe schmoe doesn t seem interested or even curious about spaceflight i disagree it think the average joe is interested curious about spaceflight but sees it as an elitist activity not one which he is ever going to participate in all of us in our own way can contribute to a comprehensive document which can be released to the general public around the world the document would scientifically analyze the technical aspects of long term human habitation in space why is the general public going to be interested in the technical details of long term space habitation i like the idea of the study but it should be released to other scientists and engineers who will be able to use it if you want a general public document you ll need a more general publication i believe that if any long term space exploration program is to succeed we need to basically learn how to engineer our own microworld i e the spacecraft only through the careful analyses of engineering chemical biological and medical factors will a good ecosystem be created to facilitate human life on a long duration flight as one working on controlled ecological life support systems engineering the microworld isn t the problem the problem is understanding the basic chemical biological and medical factors to be able to engineer them efficiently for example the only way we know how to produce food is from plants and animals food synthesis is not very far advanced so we have to orbit a farm well that s obviously not very efficient so we use technology to reduce the mass and grow plants hydroponically instead of using dirt this is where the engineering comes in but new technologies bring new basic questions that we don t have the answers to like in dirt we can grow tomatoes and lettuce right beside each other but in hydroponics it turns out that you can t do that the lettuce growth is stunted when it s grown in the same hydroponic solution as tomatoes so now you have to consider what other plants are going to have similar interactions this means some basic applied scientific research and that s what needs to be done with all technologies that have been developed so far we also need to find out how they interact together that s where we are now so i would like to see posts of opinions regarding the most objective methods to analyze the accepted scientific literature for technologies which can be applied to long duration spaceflight first you need to do the literature search there is a lot of information out there maybe we should just pick a specific area of long term habitation this could be useful especially if we make it available on the net then we can look at methods of analyzing the technologies such a detailed literature search would be of interest to ourselves as space advocates and clearly important to existing space programs in essence we would be dividing the space life science issues into various technical problems which could be solved with various technologies this database of acceptable solutions to various problems could form the basis of detailed discussions involving people from the bionet isunet and any other source unless there is an unbelievable outpouring of interest on this on the net i think we should develop a detailed data base of the literature search first then if we accomplish that we can go on to real analysis the data base itself could be useful for future engineers that s my response ken what do you think tim
sci.space	re abyss breathing fluids the forever war one of my favorite scifi books had a passage devoted to breathing fluids the idea was to protect people from the high accelerations required for interstellar travel by emersing the passengers in dry cleaning fluid saturated with oxygen plenty of very imaginative ideas is this book i would certainly recommend it won the hugo and the nebula awards regards ata
sci.space	alternative heavy element creation in universe biological alchemy another form of cold fusion alternative heavy element creation in universe a very simple experiment can demonstrate prove the fact of biological transmutations reactions like mg o ca si c ca k h ca n co etc as described in the book biological transmutations by louis kervran edition is best and in chapter of the book the secret life of plants by peter tompkins and christopher bird obtain a good sample of plant seeds all of the same kind some kinds might work better that others divide the sample into two groups of equal weight and number sprout one group in distilled water on filter paper for three or four weeks separately incinerate both groups weigh the residue from each group the residue of the sprouted group will usually weigh at least several percent more than the other group analyze quantitatively the residue of each group for mineral content some of the mineral atoms of the sprouted group have been transmuted into heavier mineral elements by fusing with atoms of oxygen hydrogen carbon nitrogen etc biological transmutations occur routinely even in our own bodies ingesting a source of organic silicon silicon with carbon such as horsetail extract or radishes can speed healing of broken bones via the reaction si c ca much faster than by merely ingesting the calcium directly some mineral deposits in the ground are formed by micro organisms fusing together atoms of silicon carbon nitrogen oxygen hydrogen etc the two reactions si c ca by micro organisms cause stone sickness in statues building bricks etc the reaction n co catalysed by very hot iron creates a carbon monoxide poison hazard for welder operators and people near woodstoves even properly sealed ones some bacteria can even neutralize radioactivity all of these things and more happen in spite of the currently accepted laws of physics including the law which says that atomic fusion requires extremely high temperatures and pressures biological transmutations and their applications in chemistry physics biology ecology medicine nutrition agrigulture geology st edition by c louis kervran active member of new york academy of science pages illustrated swan house publishing co p o box binghamton ny the secret life of plants by peter tompkins and christopher bird pages harper row new york chapters and are about radionics entire book is fascinating for more information answers to your questions etc please consult my cited sources the two books un altered reproduction and dissemination of this important information is encouraged robert e mcelwaine b s physics and astronomy uw ec
sci.space	philosophy quest how boldly there are a number of philosophical questions that i would like to ask if we encounter a life form during our space exploration how do we determine if we should capture it imprison it and then discect it if we encounter a civilization that is suffering economicly will we expend resources from earth to help them with all of the deseases we currently have that are deadly and undetectable what will be done to ensure that more new deadly deseases aren t brought back or that our deseases don t destroy life elsewhere have a day bobo
sci.space	re commercials on the moon u daimi aau dk hans erik martino hansen writes how about a coca cola logo at the moon easy way to target billions of people arthur c clarke was way ahead of you on this one he wrote a short story title in the s describing exactly your proposal tom o reilly department of geology arizona state university
sci.space	single launch space station andy cohen cohen ssdgwy mdc com writes the single launch core station concept a shuttle external tank and solid rocket boosters would be used to launch the station into orbit shuttle main engines would be mounted to the tail of the station module for launch and jettisoned after et separation why jettison the ssmes why not hold on to them and have a shuttle bring them down to use as spares karl sold my soul to uncle sam now marked down for resale
sci.space	nasa budget and sts costs what fraction of the nasa workforce is civil servant as opposed to contractor and what are the rules on reduction in work force for civil servants eg if say the shuttle program is terminated how much is payroll reduced and how steinn sigurdsson i saw two shooting stars last night lick observatory i wished on them but they were only satellites steinly lick ucsc edu is it wrong to wish on space hardware standard disclaimer i wish i wish i wish you d care b b
sci.space	re what planets are habitable in article jpg apr holly bnr co uk jpg bnr co uk jonathan p gibbons writes i would appreciate any thoughts on what makes a planet habitable for humans i am making asumptions that life and a similar atmosphere evolve given a range of physical aspects of the planet the question is what physical aspects simply disallow earth like conditions eg temperature range of k to k where temp is purely dependant on dist from the sun and the suns temperature atmospheric presure i know nothing of human tolerance planetary mass again gravity at surface is important how much can human bodies take day after day also how does the mass effect atmosphere i thinking of planets between and times mass of the earth i suppose density should be important as well climate etc does not concern me nor does axial tilt etc etc just the above three factors and how they relate to one another jonathan jonathan interesting questions some wonder whether or not the moon could have ever supported an atmosphere i d be interested in knowing what our geology environmental sciences friends think as for human tolerances the best example of human endurance in terms of altitude i e low atmospheric pressure and lower oxygen partial pressure is in my opinion to the scaling of mt everest without oxygen assistance this was accomplished by a team of mountaineers who trained at high altitudes for quite awhile i think a few months and then were flown by helicopter from that training altitude to the equivalent altitude on mount everest where they began the ascent of our planet s highest peak without oxygen tanks this is quite a feat of physiological endurance because if you or i tried to go to feet and exert ourselves we would probably pass out get altitude sick and could even die from cerebral edema so this is the limit of low pressure high pressure situations would be limited by the duration of time which it takes to slowly acclimate to a higher pressure skin divers would know alot about high pressure situations and could tell you about how they safely make deep dives without getting the bends some military experiments have put people under several atmospheres of pressure not sure what the high limit was because the papers aren t in front of me usually at a certain point the nitrogen in the air becomes toxic to the body and you start acting idiotic divers call this nitrogen narcosis those afflicted can do very dangerous and irrational things like taking off a diving mask and oxygen tank in order to talk to fish at feet under water hope any diving folk can elaborate on this matter as i am not a diving expert mars cannot support human life without pressurization because the atmosphere is too thin th our earth s atmospheric density in addition the mars atmosphere is mostly carbon dioxide basically you would need a pressure suit there or you d die from the low pressure interesting huh ken khayash hsc usc edu
sci.space	rocket types the other week i saw a tv program about the american space industry and nasa it said that in the s they developed a rocket that used ions or nuclear particles for propolsion the government however didn t give them billion for the developement of a full scale rocket did anybody see this program if not has anybody heard of the particle propolsion system thanx glen balmer
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days in article apr den mmc com zwork starfighter den mmc com michael corvin writes regarding the feasability of retrieving the hst for repair and relaunching it caution speculation mode engaged there is another consideration that hasn t been mentioned yet i expect that retrieving hst would involve damaging it considerably in order to return it to its cradle in the cargo bay most of the deployed items antennas and especially the solar arays probably are not retractable into their fully stowed position even by hand they would have to be removed by the astronauts the only advantage that this might yield is that we could put new panels on that don t ring due to thermal cycle stresses i also expect that as has been discussed the landing loads on the hst optics structure is a big issue but that the reentry loads are much less so can the moveable optical components even be re caged i assume that they were caged for launch it would be nice if someone here from the hst program was talking instead of all the speculation that is going on here from what i understand from dr frank six of the marshall space flight center there is no insrmountable problem in bringing hst back it was designed that way to begin with also it is my understanding that the solar arrays will be one of the items replaced on this mission the originals were built by brit aerospace and i think the new ones are too i am currently working with the guys at msfc that are in charge is the hst power system although i have not spoken with them in a long time about hst dennis university of alabama in huntsville
sci.space	jpl info summary our solar system at a glance this file and other text and image files from jpl missions are available from the jpl info public access computer site reachable by internet via anonymous ftp to pubinfo jpl nasa gov or by dialup modem to up to bits per second parameters n our solar system at a glance information summary pms a jpl june jpl nasa national aeronautics and space administration jet propulsion laboratory california institue of technology pasadena california for a printed copy of this publication contact the public mail office at the nasa center in your geographic region introduction from our small world we have gazed upon the cosmic ocean for untold thousands of years ancient astronomers observed points of light that appeared to move among the stars they called these objects planets meaning wanderers and named them after roman deities jupiter king of the gods mars the god of war mercury messenger of the gods venus the god of love and beauty and saturn father of jupiter and god of agriculture the stargazers also observed comets with sparkling tails and meteors or shooting stars apparently falling from the sky science flourished during the european renaissance fundamental physical laws governing planetary motion were discovered and the orbits of the planets around the sun were calculated in the th century astronomers pointed a new device called the telescope at the heavens and made startling discoveries but the years since have amounted to a golden age of solar system exploration advancements in rocketry after world war ii enabled our machines to break the grip of earth s gravity and travel to the moon and to other planets the united states has sent automated spacecraft then human crewed expeditions to explore the moon our automated machines have orbited and landed on venus and mars explored the sun s environment observed comets and made close range surveys while flying past mercury jupiter saturn uranus and neptune these travelers brought a quantum leap in our knowledge and understanding of the solar system through the electronic sight and other senses of our automated spacecraft color and complexion have been given to worlds that for centuries appeared to earth bound eyes as fuzzy disks or indistinct points of light and dozens of previously unknown objects have been discovered future historians will likely view these pioneering flights through the solar system as some of the most remarkable achievements of the th century automated spacecraft the national aeronautics and space administration s nasa s automated spacecraft for solar system exploration come in many shapes and sizes while they are designed to fulfill separate and specific mission objectives the craft share much in common each spacecraft consists of various scientific instruments selected for a particular mission supported by basic subsystems for electrical power trajectory and orientation control as well as for processing data and communicating with earth electrical power is required to operate the spacecraft instruments and systems nasa uses both solar energy from arrays of photovoltaic cells and small nuclear generators to power its solar system missions rechargeable batteries are employed for backup and supplemental power imagine that a spacecraft has successfully journeyed millions of miles through space to fly but one time near a planet only to have its cameras and other sensing instruments pointed the wrong way as it speeds past the target to help prevent such a mishap a subsystem of small thrusters is used to control spacecraft the thrusters are linked with devices that maintain a constant gaze at selected stars just as earth s early seafarers used the stars to navigate the oceans spacecraft use stars to maintain their bearings in space with the subsystem locked onto fixed points of reference flight controllers can keep a spacecraft s scientific instruments pointed at the target body and the craft s communications antennas pointed toward earth the thrusters can also be used to fine tune the flight path and speed of the spacecraft to ensure that a target body is encountered at the planned distance and on the proper trajectory between and nasa spacecraft were dispatched to study the moon and the solar environment they also scanned the inner planets other than earth mercury venus and mars these three worlds and our own are known as the terrestrial planets because they share a solid rock composition for the early planetary reconnaissance missions nasa employed a highly successful series of spacecraft called the mariners their flights helped shape the planning of later missions between and seven mariner missions conducted the first surveys of our planetary neighbors in space all of the mariners used solar panels as their primary power source the first and the final versions of the spacecraft had two wings covered with photovoltaic cells other mariners were equipped with four solar panels extending from their octagonal bodies although the mariners ranged from the mariner venus spacecraft weighing in at kilograms pounds to the mariner mars orbiter weighing in at kilograms pounds their basic design remained quite similar throughout the program the mariner venus spacecraft for example had originally been a backup for the mariner mars flyby the mariner spacecraft sent to venus and mercury used components left over from the mariner mars orbiter program in nasa launched pioneer a jupiter spacecraft interest was shifting to four of the outer planets jupiter saturn uranus and neptune giant balls of dense gas quite different from the terrestrial worlds we had already surveyed four nasa spacecraft in all two pioneers and two voyagers were sent in the s to tour the outer regions of our solar system because of the distances involved these travelers took anywhere from months to years to reach their destinations barring faster spacecraft they will eventually become the first human artifacts to journey to distant stars because the sun s light becomes so faint in the outer solar system these travelers do not use solar power but instead operate on electricity generated by heat from the decay of radioisotopes nasa also developed highly specialized spacecraft to revisit our neighbors mars and venus in the middle and late s twin viking landers were equipped to serve as seismic and weather stations and as biology laboratories two advanced orbiters descendants of the mariner craft carried the viking landers from earth and then studied martian features from above two drum shaped pioneer spacecraft visited venus in the pioneer venus orbiter was equipped with a radar instrument that allowed it to see through the planet s dense cloud cover to study surface features the pioneer venus multiprobe carried four probes that were dropped through the clouds the probes and the main body all of which contained scientific instruments radioed information about the planet s atmosphere during their descent toward the surface a new generation of automated spacecraft including magellan galileo ulysses mars observer the comet rendezvous asteroid flyby craf and cassini is being developed and sent out into the solar system to make detailed examinations that will increase our understanding of our neighborhood and our own planet the sun a discussion of the objects in the solar system must start with the sun the sun dwarfs the other bodies representing approximately percent of all the mass in the solar system all of the planets moons asteroids comets dust and gas add up to only about percent this percent represents the material left over from the sun s formation one hundred and nine earths would be required to fit across the sun s disk and its interior could hold over million earths as a star the sun generates energy through the process of fusion the temperature at the sun s core is million degrees celsius million degrees fahrenheit and the pressure there is billion times earth s air pressure at sea level the sun s surface temperature of degrees celsius degrees fahrenheit seems almost chilly compared to its core temperature at the solar core hydrogen can fuse into helium producing energy the sun also produces a strong magnetic field and streams of charged particles both extending far beyond the planets the sun appears to have been active for billion years and has enough fuel to go on for another five billion years or so at the end of its life the sun will start to fuse helium into heavier elements and begin to swell up ultimately growing so large that it will swallow earth after a billion years as a red giant it will suddenly collapse into a white dwarf the final end product of a star like ours it may take a trillion years to cool off completely many spacecraft have explored the sun s environment but none have gotten any closer to its surface than approximately two thirds of the distance from earth to the sun pioneers the pioneer venus orbiter voyagers and and other spacecraft have all sampled the solar environment the ulysses spacecraft launched on october is a joint solar mission of nasa and the european space agency after using jupiter s gravity to change its trajectory ulysses will fly over the sun s polar regions during and and will perform a wide range of studies using nine onboard scientific instruments we are fortunate that the sun is exactly the way it is if it were different in almost any way life would almost certainly never have developed on earth mercury obtaining the first close up views of mercury was the primary objective of the mariner spacecraft launched on november from kennedy space center in florida after a journey of nearly five months which included a flyby of venus the spacecraft passed within kilometers miles of the solar system s innermost planet on march until mariner little was known about mercury even the best telescopic views from earth showed mercury as an indistinct object lacking any surface detail the planet is so close to the sun that it is usually lost in solar glare when the planet is visible on earth s horizon just after sunset or before dawn it is obscured by the haze and dust in our atmosphere only radar telescopes gave any hint of mercury s surface conditions prior to the voyage of mariner the photographs mariner radioed back to earth revealed an ancient heavily cratered surface closely resembling our own moon the pictures also showed huge cliffs crisscrossing the planet these apparently were created when mercury s interior cooled and shrank buckling the planet s crust the cliffs are as high as kilometers miles and as long as kilometers miles instruments on mariner discovered that mercury has a weak magnetic field and a trace of atmosphere a trillionth the density of earth s atmosphere and composed chiefly of argon neon and helium when the planet s orbit takes it closest to the sun surface temperatures range from degrees celsius degrees fahrenheit on mercury s sunlit side to degrees celsius degrees fahrenheit on the dark side this range in surface temperature degrees celsius degrees fahrenheit is the largest for a single body in the solar system mercury literally bakes and freezes at the same time days and nights are long on mercury the combination of a slow rotation relative to the stars earth days and a rapid revolution around the sun earth days means that one mercury solar day takes earth days or two mercury years the time it takes the innermost planet to complete two orbits around the sun mercury appears to have a crust of light silicate rock like that of earth scientists believe mercury has a heavy iron rich core making up slightly less than half of its volume that would make mercury s core larger proportionally than the moon s core or those of any of the planets after the initial mercury encounter mariner made two additional flybys on september and march before control gas used to orient the spacecraft was exhausted and the mission was concluded each flyby took place at the same local mercury time when the identical half of the planet was illuminated as a result we still have not seen one half of the planet s surface venus veiled by dense cloud cover venus our nearest planetary neighbor was the first planet to be explored the mariner spacecraft launched on august was the first of more than a dozen successful american and soviet missions to study the mysterious planet as spacecraft flew by or orbited venus plunged into the atmosphere or gently landed on venus surface romantic myths and speculations about our neighbor were laid to rest on december mariner passed within kilometers miles of venus and became the first spacecraft to scan another planet onboard instruments measured venus for minutes mariner launched in june flew much closer to the planet passing within kilometers miles of venus on the second american flyby mariner s instruments measured the planet s magnetic field ionosphere radiation belts and temperatures on its way to mercury mariner flew by venus and transmitted ultraviolet pictures to earth showing cloud circulation patterns in the venusian atmosphere in the spring and summer of two spacecraft were launched to further unravel the mysteries of venus on december of the same year the pioneer venus orbiter became the first spacecraft placed in orbit around the planet five days later the five separate components making up the second spacecraft the pioneer venus multiprobe entered the venusian atmosphere at different locations above the planet the four small independent probes and the main body radioed atmospheric data back to earth during their descent toward the surface although designed to examine the atmosphere one of the probes survived its impact with the surface and continued to transmit data for another hour venus resembles earth in size physical composition and density more closely than any other known planet however spacecraft have discovered significant differences as well for example venus rotation west to east is retrograde backward compared to the east to west spin of earth and most of the other planets approximately percent of venus atmosphere times as dense as earth s is carbon dioxide the principal constituent of earth s atmosphere is nitrogen venus atmosphere acts like a greenhouse permitting solar radiation to reach the surface but trapping the heat that would ordinarily be radiated back into space as a result the planet s average surface temperature is degrees celsius degrees fahrenheit hot enough to melt lead a radio altimeter on the pioneer venus orbiter provided the first means of seeing through the planet s dense cloud cover and determining surface features over almost the entire planet nasa s magellan spacecraft launched on may has been in orbit around venus since august the spacecraft uses radar mapping techniques to provide ultrahigh resolution images of the surface magellan has revealed a landscape dominated by volcanic features faults and impact craters huge areas of the surface show evidence of multiple periods of lava flooding with flows lying on top of previous ones an elevated region named ishtar terra is a lava filled basin as large as the united states at one end of this plateau sits maxwell montes a mountain the size of mount everest scarring the mountain s flank is a kilometer mile wide kilometer mile deep impact crater named cleopatra almost all features on venus are named for women maxwell montes alpha regio and beta regio are the exceptions craters survive on venus for perhaps million years because there is no water and very little wind erosion extensive fault line networks cover the planet probably the result of the same crustal flexing that produces plate tectonics on earth but on venus the surface temperature is sufficient to weaken the rock which cracks just about everywhere preventing the formation of major plates and large earthquake faults like the san andreas fault in california venus predominant weather pattern is a high altitude high speed circulation of clouds that contain sulfuric acid at speeds reaching as high as kilometers miles per hour the clouds circle the planet in only four earth days the circulation is in the same direction west to east as venus slow rotation of earth days whereas earth s winds blow in both directions west to east and east to west in six alternating bands venus atmosphere serves as a simplified laboratory for the study of our weather earth as viewed from space our world s distinguishing characteristics are its blue waters brown and green land masses and white clouds we are enveloped by an ocean of air consisting of percent nitrogen percent oxygen and percent other constituents the only planet in the solar system known to harbor life earth orbits the sun at an average distance of million kilometers million miles earth is the third planet from the sun and the fifth largest in the solar system with a diameter just a few hundred kilometers larger than that of venus our planet s rapid spin and molten nickel iron core give rise to an extensive magnetic field which along with the atmosphere shields us from nearly all of the harmful radiation coming from the sun and other stars earth s atmosphere protects us from meteors as well most of which burn up before they can strike the surface active geological processes have left no evidence of the pelting earth almost certainly received soon after it formed about billion years ago along with the other newly formed planets it was showered by space debris in the early days of the solar system from our journeys into space we have learned much about our home planet the first american satellite explorer was launched from cape canaveral in florida on january and discovered an intense radiation zone now called the van allen radiation belts surrounding earth since then other research satellites have revealed that our planet s magnetic field is distorted into a tear drop shape by the solar wind the stream of charged particles continuously ejected from the sun we ve learned that the magnetic field does not fade off into space but has definite boundaries and we now know that our wispy upper atmosphere once believed calm and uneventful seethes with activity swelling by day and contracting by night affected by changes in solar activity the upper atmosphere contributes to weather and climate on earth besides affecting earth s weather solar activity gives rise to a dramatic visual phenomenon in our atmosphere when charged particles from the solar wind become trapped in earth s magnetic field they collide with air molecules above our planet s magnetic poles these air molecules then begin to glow and are known as the auroras or the northern and southern lights satellites about kilometers miles out in space play a major role in daily local weather forecasting these watchful electronic eyes warn us of dangerous storms continuous global monitoring provides a vast amount of useful data and contributes to a better understanding of earth s complex weather systems from their unique vantage points satellites can survey earth s oceans land use and resources and monitor the planet s health these eyes in space have saved countless lives provided tremendous conveniences and shown us that we may be altering our planet in dangerous ways the moon the moon is earth s single natural satellite the first human footsteps on an alien world were made by american astronauts on the dusty surface of our airless lifeless companion in preparation for the human crewed apollo expeditions nasa dispatched the automated ranger surveyor and lunar orbiter spacecraft to study the moon between and nasa s apollo program left a large legacy of lunar materials and data six two astronaut crews landed on and explored the lunar surface between and carrying back a collection of rocks and soil weighing a total of kilograms pounds and consisting of more than separate samples from this material and other studies scientists have constructed a history of the moon that includes its infancy rocks collected from the lunar highlands date to about billion years old the first few million years of the moon s existence were so violent that few traces of this period remain as a molten outer layer gradually cooled and solidified into different kinds of rock the moon was bombarded by huge asteroids and smaller objects some of the asteroids were as large as rhode island or delaware and their collisions with the moon created basins hundreds of kilometers across this catastrophic bombardment tapered off approximately four billion years ago leaving the lunar highlands covered with huge overlapping craters and a deep layer of shattered and broken rock heat produced by the decay of radioactive elements began to melt the interior of the moon at depths of about kilometers miles below the surface then for the next million years from about to billion years ago lava rose from inside the moon the lava gradually spread out over the surface flooding the large impact basins to form the dark areas that galileo galilei an astronomer of the italian renaissance called maria meaning seas as far as we can tell there has been no significant volcanic activity on the moon for more than three billion years since then the lunar surface has been altered only by micrometeorites by the atomic particles from the sun and stars by the rare impacts of large meteorites and by spacecraft and astronauts if our astronauts had landed on the moon a billion years ago they would have seen a landscape very similar to the one today thousands of years from now the footsteps left by the apollo crews will remain sharp and clear the origin of the moon is still a mystery four theories attempt an explanation the moon formed near earth as a separate body it was torn from earth it formed somewhere else and was captured by our planet s gravity or it was the result of a collision between earth and an asteroid about the size of mars the last theory has some good support but is far from certain mars of all the planets mars has long been considered the solar system s prime candidate for harboring extraterrestrial life astronomers studying the red planet through telescopes saw what appeared to be straight lines crisscrossing its surface these observations later determined to be optical illusions led to the popular notion that intelligent beings had constructed a system of irrigation canals on the planet in when orson welles broadcast a radio drama based on the science fiction classic war of the worlds by h g wells enough people believed in the tale of invading martians to cause a near panic another reason for scientists to expect life on mars had to do with the apparent seasonal color changes on the planet s surface this phenomenon led to speculation that conditions might support a bloom of martian vegetation during the warmer months and cause plant life to become dormant during colder periods so far six american missions to mars have been carried out four mariner spacecraft three flying by the planet and one placed into martian orbit surveyed the planet extensively before the viking orbiters and landers arrived mariner launched in late flew past mars on july coming within kilometers miles of the surface transmitting to earth close up pictures of the planet the spacecraft found many craters and naturally occurring channels but no evidence of artificial canals or flowing water mariners and followed with their flybys during the summer of and returned pictures mariners and showed a diversity of surface conditions as well as a thin cold dry atmosphere of carbon dioxide on may the mariner orbiter was launched on a mission to make a year long study of the martian surface the spacecraft arrived five and a half months after lift off only to find mars in the midst of a planet wide dust storm that made surface photography impossible for several weeks but after the storm cleared mariner began returning the first of pictures these revealed previously unknown martian features including evidence that large amounts of water once flowed across the surface etching river valleys and flood plains in august and september the viking and spacecraft each consisting of an orbiter and a lander lifted off from kennedy space center the mission was designed to answer several questions about the red planet including is there life there nobody expected the spacecraft to spot martian cities but it was hoped that the biology experiments on the viking landers would at least find evidence of primitive life past or present viking lander became the first spacecraft to successfully touch down on another planet when it landed on july while the united states was celebrating its bicentennial photos sent back from the chryse planitia plains of gold showed a bleak rusty red landscape panoramic images returned by the lander revealed a rolling plain littered with rocks and marked by rippled sand dunes fine red dust from the martian soil gives the sky a salmon hue when viking lander touched down on utopia planitia on september it viewed a more rolling landscape than the one seen by its predecessor one without visible dunes the results sent back by the laboratory on each viking lander were inconclusive small samples of the red martian soil were tested in three different experiments designed to detect biological processes while some of the test results seemed to indicate biological activity later analysis confirmed that this activity was inorganic in nature and related to the planet s soil chemistry is there life on mars no one knows for sure but the viking mission found no evidence that organic molecules exist there the viking landers became weather stations recording wind velocity and direction as well as atmospheric temperature and pressure few weather changes were observed the highest temperature recorded by either craft was degrees celsius degrees fahrenheit at the viking lander site in midsummer the lowest temperature degrees celsius degrees fahrenheit was recorded at the more northerly viking lander site during winter near hurricane wind speeds were measured at the two martian weather stations during global dust storms but because the atmosphere is so thin wind force is minimal viking lander photographed light patches of frost probably water ice during its second winter on the planet the martian atmosphere like that of venus is primarily carbon dioxide nitrogen and oxygen are present only in small percentages martian air contains only about as much water as our air but even this small amount can condense out forming clouds that ride high in the atmosphere or swirl around the slopes of towering volcanoes local patches of early morning fog can form in valleys there is evidence that in the past a denser martian atmosphere may have allowed water to flow on the planet physical features closely resembling shorelines gorges riverbeds and islands suggest that great rivers once marked the planet mars has two moons phobos and deimos they are small and irregularly shaped and possess ancient cratered surfaces it is possible the moons were originally asteroids that ventured too close to mars and were captured by its gravity the viking orbiters and landers exceeded by large margins their design lifetimes of and days respectively the first to fail was viking orbiter which stopped operating on july when a leak depleted its attitude control gas viking lander operated until april when it was shut down because of battery degeneration viking orbiter quit on august when the last of its attitude control gas was used up viking lander ceased functioning on november despite the inconclusive results of the viking biology experiments we know more about mars than any other planet except earth nasa s mars observer spacecraft to be launched in september will expand our knowledge of the martian environment and lead to human exploration of the red planet asteroids the solar system has a large number of rocky and metallic objects that are in orbit around the sun but are too small to be considered full fledged planets these objects are known as asteroids or minor planets most but not all are found in a band or belt between the orbits of mars and jupiter some have orbits that cross earth s path and there is evidence that earth has been hit by asteroids in the past one of the least eroded best preserved examples is the barringer meteor crater near winslow arizona asteroids are material left over from the formation of the solar system one theory suggests that they are the remains of a planet that was destroyed in a massive collision long ago more likely asteroids are material that never coalesced into a planet in fact if the estimated total mass of all asteroids was gathered into a single object the object would be only about kilometers miles across less than half the diameter of our moon thousands of asteroids have been identified from earth it is estimated that are bright enough to eventually be photographed through earth based telescopes much of our understanding about asteroids comes from examining pieces of space debris that fall to the surface of earth asteroids that are on a collision course with earth are called meteoroids when a meteoroid strikes our atmosphere at high velocity friction causes this chunk of space matter to incinerate in a streak of light known as a meteor if the meteoroid does not burn up completely what s left strikes earth s surface and is called a meteorite one of the best places to look for meteorites is the ice cap of antarctica of all the meteorites examined percent are composed of silicate stone and percent are composed of iron and nickel the rest are a mixture of the three materials stony meteorites are the hardest to identify since they look very much like terrestrial rocks since asteroids are material from the very early solar system scientists are interested in their composition spacecraft that have flown through the asteroid belt have found that the belt is really quite empty and that asteroids are separated by very large distances current and future missions will fly by selected asteroids for closer examination the galileo orbiter launched by nasa in october will investigate main belt asteroids on its way to jupiter the comet rendezvous asteroid flyby craf and cassini missions will also study these far flung objects scheduled for launch in the latter part of the s the craf and cassini missions are a collaborative project of nasa the european space agency and the federal space agencies of germany and italy as well as the united states air force and the department of energy one day space factories will mine the asteroids for raw materials jupiter beyond mars and the asteroid belt in the outer regions of our solar system lie the giant planets of jupiter saturn uranus and neptune in nasa dispatched the first of four spacecraft slated to conduct the initial surveys of these colossal worlds of gas and their moons of ice and rock jupiter was the first port of call pioneer which lifted off from kennedy space center in march was the first spacecraft to penetrate the asteroid belt and travel to the outer regions of the solar system in december it returned the first close up images of jupiter flying within kilometers miles of the planet s banded cloud tops pioneer followed a year later voyagers and were launched in the summer of and returned spectacular photographs of jupiter and its family of satellites during flybys in these travelers found jupiter to be a whirling ball of liquid hydrogen and helium topped with a colorful atmosphere composed mostly of gaseous hydrogen and helium ammonia ice crystals form white jovian clouds sulfur compounds and perhaps phosphorus may produce the brown and orange hues that characterize jupiter s atmosphere it is likely that methane ammonia water and other gases react to form organic molecules in the regions between the planet s frigid cloud tops and the warmer hydrogen ocean lying below because of jupiter s atmospheric dynamics however these organic compounds if they exist are probably short lived the great red spot has been observed for centuries through telescopes on earth this hurricane like storm in jupiter s atmosphere is more than twice the size of our planet as a high pressure region the great red spot spins in a direction opposite to that of low pressure storms on jupiter it is surrounded by swirling currents that rotate around the spot and are sometimes consumed by it the great red spot might be a million years old our spacecraft detected lightning in jupiter s upper atmosphere and observed auroral emissions similar to earth s northern lights at the jovian polar regions voyager returned the first images of a faint narrow ring encircling jupiter largest of the solar system s planets jupiter rotates at a dizzying pace once every hours minutes seconds the massive planet takes almost earth years to complete a journey around the sun with known moons jupiter is something of a miniature solar system a new mission to jupiter the galileo project is under way after a six year cruise that takes the galileo orbiter once past venus twice past earth and the moon and once past two asteroids the spacecraft will drop an atmospheric probe into jupiter s cloud layers and relay data back to earth the galileo orbiter will spend two years circling the planet and flying close to jupiter s large moons exploring in detail what the two pioneers and two voyagers revealed galilean satellites in galileo galilei aimed his telescope at jupiter and spotted four points of light orbiting the planet for the first time humans had seen the moons of another world in honor of their discoverer these four bodies would become known as the galilean satellites or moons but galileo might have happily traded this honor for one look at the dazzling photographs returned by the voyager spacecraft as they flew past these planet sized satellites one of the most remarkable findings of the voyager mission was the presence of active volcanoes on the galilean moon io volcanic eruptions had never before been observed on a world other than earth the voyager cameras identified at least nine active volcanoes on io with plumes of ejected material extending as far as kilometers miles above the moon s surface io s pizza colored terrain marked by orange and yellow hues is probably the result of sulfur rich materials brought to the surface by volcanic activity volcanic activity on this satellite is the result of tidal flexing caused by the gravitational tug of war between io jupiter and the other three galilean moons europa approximately the same size as our moon is the brightest galilean satellite the moon s surface displays a complex array of streaks indicating the crust has been fractured caught in a gravitational tug of war like io europa has been heated enough to cause its interior ice to melt apparently producing a liquid water ocean this ocean is covered by an ice crust that has formed where water is exposed to the cold of space europa s core is made of rock that sank to its center like europa the other two galilean moons ganymede and callisto are worlds of ice and rock ganymede is the largest satellite in the solar system larger than the planets mercury and pluto the satellite is composed of about percent water or ice and the rest rock ganymede s surface has areas of different brightness indicating that in the past material oozed out of the moon s interior and was deposited at various locations on the surface callisto only slightly smaller than ganymede has the lowest density of any galilean satellite suggesting that large amounts of water are part of its composition callisto is the most heavily cratered object in the solar system no activity during its history has erased old craters except more impacts detailed studies of all the galilean satellites will be performed by the galileo orbiter saturn no planet in the solar system is adorned like saturn its exquisite ring system is unrivaled like jupiter saturn is composed mostly of hydrogen but in contrast to the vivid colors and wild turbulence found in jovian clouds saturn s atmosphere has a more subtle butterscotch hue and its markings are muted by high altitude haze given saturn s somewhat placid looking appearance scientists were surprised at the high velocity equatorial jet stream that blows some kilometers miles per hour three american spacecraft have visited saturn pioneer sped by the planet and its moon titan in september returning the first close up images voyager followed in november sending back breathtaking photographs that revealed for the first time the complexities of saturn s ring system and moons voyager flew by the planet and its moons in august the rings are composed of countless low density particles orbiting individually around saturn s equator at progressive distances from the cloud tops analysis of spacecraft radio waves passing through the rings showed that the particles vary widely in size ranging from dust to house sized boulders the rings are bright because they are mostly ice and frosted rock the rings might have resulted when a moon or a passing body ventured too close to saturn the unlucky object would have been torn apart by great tidal forces on its surface and in its interior or the object may not have been fully formed to begin with and disintegrated under the influence of saturn s gravity a third possibility is that the object was shattered by collisions with larger objects orbiting the planet unable either to form into a moon or to drift away from each other individual ring particles appear to be held in place by the gravitational pull of saturn and its satellites these complex gravitational interactions form the thousands of ringlets that make up the major rings radio emissions quite similar to the static heard on an am car radio during an electrical storm were detected by the voyager spacecraft these emissions are typical of lightning but are believed to be coming from saturn s ring system rather than its atmosphere where no lightning was observed as they had at jupiter the voyagers saw a version of earth s auroras near saturn s poles the voyagers discovered new moons and found several satellites that share the same orbit we learned that some moons shepherd ring particles maintaining saturn s rings and the gaps in the rings saturn s th moon was discovered in from images taken by voyager in voyager determined that titan has a nitrogen based atmosphere with methane and argon one more like earth s in composition than the carbon dioxide atmospheres of mars and venus titan s surface temperature of degrees celsius degrees fahrenheit implies that there might be water ice islands rising above oceans of ethane methane liquid or sludge unfortunately voyager s cameras could not penetrate the moon s dense clouds continuing photochemistry from solar radiation may be converting titan s methane to ethane acetylene and in combination with nitrogen hydrogen cyanide the latter compound is a building block of amino acids these conditions may be similar to the atmospheric conditions of primeval earth between three and four billion years ago however titan s atmospheric temperature is believed to be too low to permit progress beyond this stage of organic chemistry the exploration of saturn will continue with the cassini mission the cassini spacecraft will orbit the planet and will also deploy a probe called huygens which will be dropped into titan s atmosphere and fall to the surface cassini will use the probe as well as radar to peer through titan s clouds and will spend years examining the saturnian system uranus in january four and a half years after visiting saturn voyager completed the first close up survey of the uranian system the brief flyby revealed more information about uranus and its retinue of icy moons than had been gleaned from ground observations since the planet s discovery over two centuries ago by the english astronomer william herschel uranus third largest of the planets is an oddball of the solar system unlike the other planets with the exception of pluto this giant lies tipped on its side with its north and south poles alternately facing the sun during an year swing around the solar system during voyager s flyby the south pole faced the sun uranus might have been knocked over when an earth sized object collided with it early in the life of the solar system voyager found that uranus magnetic field does not follow the usual north south axis found on the other planets instead the field is tilted degrees and offset from the planet s center a phenomenon that on earth would be like having one magnetic pole in new york city and the other in the city of djakarta on the island of java in indonesia uranus atmosphere consists mainly of hydrogen with some percent helium and small amounts of ammonia methane and water vapor the planet s blue color occurs because methane in its atmosphere absorbs all other colors wind speeds range up to kilometers miles per hour and temperatures near the cloud tops average degrees celsius degrees fahrenheit uranus sunlit south pole is shrouded in a kind of photochemical smog believed to be a combination of acetylene ethane and other sunlight generated chemicals surrounding the planet s atmosphere and extending thousands of kilometers into space is a mysterious ultraviolet sheen known as electroglow approximately kilometers miles below uranus cloud tops there is thought to be a scalding ocean of water and dissolved ammonia some kilometers miles deep beneath this ocean is an earth sized core of heavier materials voyager discovered new moons kilometers miles in diameter orbiting uranus the five previously known miranda ariel umbriel titania and oberon range in size from to kilometers to miles across representing a geological showcase these five moons are half ice half rock spheres that are cold and dark and show evidence of past activity including faulting and ice flows the most remarkable of uranus moons is miranda its surface features high cliffs as well as canyons crater pocked plains and winding valleys the sharp variations in terrain suggest that after the moon formed it was smashed apart by a collision with another body an event not unusual in our solar system which contains many objects that have impact craters or are fragments from large impacts what is extraordinary is that miranda apparently reformed with some of the material that had been in its interior exposed on its surface uranus was thought to have nine dark rings voyager imaged in contrast to saturn s rings which are composed of bright particles uranus rings are primarily made up of dark boulder sized chunks neptune voyager completed its year tour of the solar system with an investigation of neptune and the planet s moons on august the spacecraft swept to within kilometers miles of neptune and then flew on to the moon triton during the neptune encounter it became clear that the planet s atmosphere was more active than uranus voyager observed the great dark spot a circular storm the size of earth in neptune s atmosphere resembling jupiter s great red spot the storm spins counterclockwise and moves westward at almost kilometers miles per hour voyager also noted a smaller dark spot and a fast moving cloud dubbed the scooter as well as high altitude clouds over the main hydrogen and helium cloud deck the highest wind speeds of any planet were observed up to kilometers miles per hour like the other giant planets neptune has a gaseous hydrogen and helium upper layer over a liquid interior the planet s core contains a higher percentage of rock and metal than those of the other gas giants neptune s distinctive blue appearance like uranus blue color is due to atmospheric methane neptune s magnetic field is tilted relative to the planet s spin axis and is not centered at the core this phenomenon is similar to uranus magnetic field and suggests that the fields of the two giants are being generated in an area above the cores where the pressure is so great that liquid hydrogen assumes the electrical properties of a metal earth s magnetic field on the other hand is produced by its spinning metallic core and is only slightly tilted and offset relative to its center voyager also shed light on the mystery of neptune s rings observations from earth indicated that there were arcs of material in orbit around the giant planet it was not clear how neptune could have arcs and how these could be kept from spreading out into even unclumped rings voyager detected these arcs but they were in fact part of thin complete rings a number of small moons could explain the arcs but such bodies were not spotted astronomers had identified the neptunian moons triton in and nereid in voyager found six more one of the new moons proteus is actually larger than nereid but since proteus orbits close to neptune it was lost in the planet s glare for observers on earth triton circles neptune in a retrograde orbit in under six days tidal forces on triton are causing it to spiral slowly towards the planet in to million years a short time in astronomical terms the moon will be so close that neptunian gravity will tear it apart forming a spectacular ring to accompany the planet s modest current rings triton s landscape is as strange and unexpected as those of io and miranda the moon has more rock than its counterparts at saturn and uranus triton s mantle is probably composed of water ice but the moon s crust is a thin veneer of nitrogen and methane the moon shows two dramatically different types of terrain the so called cantaloupe terrain and a receding ice cap dark streaks appear on the ice cap these streaks are the fallout from geyser like volcanic vents that shoot nitrogen gas and dark fine grained particles to heights of to kilometers to miles triton s thin atmosphere only th as thick as earth s has winds that carry the dark particles and deposit them as streaks on the ice cap the coldest surface yet found in the solar system degrees celsius degrees fahrenheit triton might be more like pluto than any other object spacecraft have so far visited pluto pluto is the most distant of the planets yet the eccentricity of its orbit periodically carries it inside neptune s orbit where it has been since and where it will remain until march pluto s orbit is also highly inclined tilted degrees to the orbital plane of the other planets discovered in pluto appears to be little more than a celestial snowball the planet s diameter is calculated to be approximately kilometers miles only two thirds the size of our moon ground based observations indicate that pluto s surface is covered with methane ice and that there is a thin atmosphere that may freeze and fall to the surface as the planet moves away from the sun observations also show that pluto s spin axis is tipped by degrees the planet has one known satellite charon discovered in charon s surface composition is different from pluto s the moon appears to be covered with water ice rather than methane ice its orbit is gravitationally locked with pluto so both bodies always keep the same hemisphere facing each other pluto s and charon s rotational period and charon s period of revolution are all earth days although no spacecraft have ever visited pluto nasa is currently exploring the possibility of such a mission comets the outermost members of the solar system occasionally pay a visit to the inner planets as asteroids are the rocky and metallic remnants of the formation of the solar system comets are the icy debris from that dim beginning and can survive only far from the sun most comet nuclei reside in the oort cloud a loose swarm of objects in a halo beyond the planets and reaching perhaps halfway to the nearest star comet nuclei orbit in this frozen abyss until they are gravitationally perturbed into new orbits that carry them close to the sun as a nucleus falls inside the orbits of the outer planets the volatile elements of which it is made gradually warm by the time the nucleus enters the region of the inner planets these volatile elements are boiling the nucleus itself is irregular and only a few miles across and is made principally of water ice with methane and ammonia materials very similar to those composing the moons of the giant planets as these materials boil off of the nucleus they form a coma or cloud like head that can measure tens of thousands of kilometers across the coma grows as the comet gets closer to the sun the stream of charged particles coming from the sun pushes on this cloud blowing it back like a flag in the wind and giving rise to the comet s tails gases and ions are blown directly back from the nucleus but dust particles are pushed more slowly as the nucleus continues in its orbit the dust particles are left behind in a curved arc both the gas and dust tails point away from the sun in effect the comet chases its tails as it recedes from the sun the tails can reach million kilometers million miles in length but the total amount of material contained in this dramatic display would fit in an ordinary suitcase comets from the latin cometa meaning long haired are essentially dramatic light shows some comets pass through the solar system only once but others have their orbits gravitationally modified by a close encounter with one of the giant outer planets these latter visitors can enter closed elliptical orbits and repeatedly return to the inner solar system halley s comet is the most famous example of a relatively short period comet returning on an average of once every years and orbiting from beyond neptune to within venus orbit confirmed sightings of the comet go back to b c this regular visitor to our solar system is named for sir edmond halley because he plotted the comet s orbit and predicted its return based on earlier sightings and newtonian laws of motion his name became part of astronomical lore when in the comet returned on schedule unfortunately sir edmond did not live to see it a comet can be very prominent in the sky if it passes comparatively close to earth unfortunately on its most recent appearance halley s comet passed no closer than million kilometers million miles from our world the comet was visible to the naked eye especially for viewers in the southern hemisphere but it was not spectacular comets have been so bright on rare occasions that they were visible during daytime historically comet sightings have been interpreted as bad omens and have been artistically rendered as daggers in the sky the comet rendezvous asteroid flyby craf spacecraft will become the first traveler to fly close to a comet nucleus and remain in proximity to it as they both approach the sun craf will observe the nucleus as it becomes active in the growing sunlight and begins to have its lighter elements boil off and form a coma and tails several spacecraft have flown by comets at high speed the first was nasa s international cometary explorer in an armada of five spacecraft two japanese two soviet and the giotto spacecraft from the european space agency flew by halley s comet in conclusion despite their efforts to peer across the vast distances of space through an obscuring atmosphere scientists of the past had only one body they could study closely earth but since spaceflight through the solar system has lifted the veil on our neighbors in space we have learned more about our solar system and its members than anyone had in the previous thousands of years our automated spacecraft have traveled to the moon and to all the planets beyond our world except pluto they have observed moons as large as small planets flown by comets and sampled the solar environment astronomy books now include detailed pictures of bodies that were only smudges in the largest telescopes for generations we are lucky to be alive now to see these strange and beautiful places and objects the knowledge gained from our journeys through the solar system has redefined traditional earth sciences like geology and meteorology and spawned an entirely new discipline called comparative planetology by studying the geology of planets moons asteroids and comets and comparing differences and similarities we are learning more about the origin and history of these bodies and the solar system as a whole we are also gaining insight into earth s complex weather systems by seeing how weather is shaped on other worlds and by investigating the sun s activity and its influence throughout the solar system we can better understand climatic conditions and processes on earth we will continue to learn and benefit as our automated spacecraft explore our neighborhood in space one current mission is mapping venus others are flying between worlds and will reach the sun and jupiter after complex trajectory adjustments future missions are planned for mars saturn a comet and the asteroid belt we can also look forward to the time when humans will once again set foot on an alien world although astronauts have not been back to the moon since december plans are being formulated for our return to the lunar landscape and for the human exploration of mars and even the establishment of martian outposts one day taking a holiday may mean spending a week at a lunar base or a martian colony end
sci.space	space manuevering tug was hst servicing mission given that what i described for the hst seemed to be the smt and given the mass amrgins on the discovery mission is tight enough that spacewalking has to be carefully constrained no edo pallets no spare suits no extra mmu s why not do this quick test goldins philosophjy of faster cheaper better build a real fast space tug to handle the re boost of the hst using clean cryo fuels and get it ready before the hst mission if nasa could build mercury in months they should be able to make an smt in how much would it need guidance package use a voyager spare thruster gear use h o or lox lh bus use a commsat grapple fixture use a stripped down canadarm comms package spare x band omni gear pat
sci.space	re galileo update in article apr kelvin jpl nasa gov baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov ron baalke writes on april a cruise science memory readout mro was performed for the magnetometer mag instrument analysis indicates the data was received properly am i correct in assuming that the science instruments buffer their acquired data in onboard ram which is then downloaded upon receipt of the mro command simon brady you don t need a lot of fancy hardware for university of otago virtual reality just a walkman and an dunedin new zealand attitude
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days in article apr den mmc com zwork starfighter den mmc com michael corvin writes i expect that retrieving hst would involve damaging it considerably in order to return it to its cradle in the cargo bay most of the deployed items antennas and especially the solar arays probably are not retractable into their fully stowed position even by hand no the thing is designed to be retrievable in a pinch indeed this dictated a rather odd design for the solar arrays since they had to be retractable as well as extendable and may thus have indirectly contributed to the array flapping problems the retrieval problems are exactly as stated it would be costly would involve extensive downtime and the worry of someone finding a reason not to re launch it and would unnecessarily expose the telescope to a lot of mechanical stresses and possibilities for contamination svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	teflon development hausner qucis queensu ca alejo hausner pontificated sorry to split hairs but i just read in the making of the atomic bomb that teflon was developed during world war a sealant was needed for the tubing in which uranium hexafluoride passed as it was gradually enriched by difussion uf is very corrosive and some very inert yet flexible material was needed for the seals to split a split hair i believe that teflon cf monomer was discovered by accident when someone i don t remember found what he thought was a liquid or gas had turned to a solid it just happend to fit the bill for the above use i m crossposting to sci materials so perhaps someone in the know might elaborate james t green jgreen oboe calpoly edu i know you believe you understand what it is that you think i said but i am not sure that you realize that what i said is not what i meant
sci.space	re space manuevering tug was hst servicing mission in article rnaih jvj access digex net prb access digex net pat writes given that what i described for the hst seemed to be the smt and given the mass amrgins on the discovery mission is tight enough that spacewalking has to be carefully constrained no edo pallets no spare suits no extra mmu s why not do this quick test goldins philosophjy of faster cheaper better build a real fast space tug to handle the re boost of the hst using clean cryo fuels and get it ready before the hst mission if nasa could build mercury in months they should be able to make an smt in how much would it need guidance package use a voyager spare thruster gear use h o or lox lh bus use a commsat grapple fixture use a stripped down canadarm comms package spare x band omni gear pat and then why not build a space dock either inflated or not some place a crew can work on a item without having to wear much of the items they have to for spae such as most of he bulky suit more idea to come michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	deployable space dock idea for repair of satellites warning i am getting creative again why not build a inflatable space dock basically deploy one side of the space dock using a scissor shaped structure saw it on beyond then maneuer the side to next to the satellite and then move the rest of the dock around the satellite and seal it the inflate the dock with a gas is does not have to be oxygen just neeeds to be non flameble non damaging to the satellite and abel to maintain heat thenheat the space dock for the astronaut who will be working onthe satellite to be able to not have to wear the normal bulky space suit but a much striped down own i know this might take a slot of work or not or just to plain wierd but ideas need to be thought of for where is tomorrow but in the imagination of the present michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	private support of exploration russian america commericial support for exploration examples also much if baranovs exploration and utilization of alaska russian america also included parts of washington state oregon and n california was doen by private funds yes some royal governmental funds at times michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they i feel compelled to complain the statement that recent observations rule out merging neutron stars as sources of gamma ray bursts is utterly false even though it is popular enough to make it to batse press releases the idea behind the statement is as follows if you smack two neutron stars together or have a neutron star be gobbled up by a black hole a lot of energy is released enough for a gamma ray burst at a cosmological distance but so the reasoning continues this energy is released below a lot of matter so the radiation becomes thermalized and you expect to see roughly a blackbody spectrum the observed spectra are strongly non thermal so this model must be wrong as so often the fault lies with the imagination of the person who was trying to prove the model wrong rather than with the model it may be that the initial energy release is not seen as a gamma ray burst but the fireball of energy and matter that is created may spew out a relativistic flow when this slams into the surrounding medium a strong flux of non thermal gamma rays results which may carry off a substantial fraction of the initial total energy all this is not my idea it is in a series of papers by martin rees peter meszaros sorry for the missing accents and co workers it is certainly not a complete model but it may well be the best one around summing over all proposed distance scales an alternative proposal for what creates the initial fireball by the way is the so called failed supernovae scenario by stan woosley in which a very massive star at the end of its life collapses to a black hole if the stellar core was rotating part of the infalling matter will be temporarily halted because it is supported by centrifugal force and form a very dense neutron torus that accretes onto the black hole this beast may spew out a jet along the rotation axis which again constitutes relativistic flow the rate of such events may be much higher than that of neutron star mergers but the flux may be more strongly beamed so that the net rate of bursts observed on earth stays the same between the two scenarios but the energy released per event can be a lot less in the failed supernova scenario on another note i do believe that the distance scale must ultimately be resolved via some classical astronomical method such as finding counterparts to the bursts at other wavelengths or finding a definitive signature of some known class of objects in the distribution of positions and fluxes theorists have historically not been too successfull in finding the distance of any object by proving that there is only one possible way in which the object can work and therefore it must be so and so ralph wijers
sci.space	re long term human missions jgladu bcm tmc edu grungy writes ward pashosh wisdom weizmann ac il ward paul wrote calculators teflon so your eggs don t stick in the pan pacemakers kept my grandfather alive from until i don t think touting contributions is a good idea world war ii produced many many beneficial spinoffs eg radar jet aeroplanes rocket technology i don t think anyone would argue that world war ii was in and of itself a good thing if you want people to back the space program it must be a good thing in and of itself i disagree with what to tout although i agree that the space program is inherently a good thing most people today only care about what will it cost me and what s in it for me and could care less about whether something is simply worthwhile in and of itself our society has become increasingly geared toward the short term which you could read as now they couldn t care less about next week much less next century they want something to show for the expenditure and they want it now i think to some extent this is a case of stooping to their level you assume that the general public can t handle the truth and then based on this assumption go for the fluff arguments then someone who can understand a good argument comes along and asks why don t you just develop the spinoffs or why can t we just get our spinoffs from some other program like the military there are some good arguments for space development without relying on its side effects i m not ignoring the value of spinoffs i simply think that the general public deserves more credit than you give them btw don t forget velcro and if you re going to use spinoffs you better make darn sure you are right teflon has been around since before nasa as i understand it velcro was conceptualized by a french doctor who went walking in the woods and took the trouble to wonder how burrs stick to your clothes certainly velcro was available on hiking equipment by the early to mid sixties i would need to see some good evidence before i believe that either of these would not be here today without nasa josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find a way or make one attributed to hannibal
sci.space	satellite around pluto mission being wierd again so be warned is there a plan to put a satellite around each planet in the solar system to keep watch i help it better to ask questions before i spout an opinion how about a mission unmanned to pluto to stay in orbit and record things around and near and on pluto i know it is a strange idea but why not it could do some scanning of not only pluto but also of the solar system objects near and aaroundpluto as well as seti and looking at the galaxy without having much of the solar system to worry about michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days in article t nhg rpi edu strider clotho acm rpi edu greg moore writes as herny pointed out you have to develop the thruster also while much lighter you still have to lift the mass of the thruster to orbit and then the thruster lifts its own weight into a higher orbit and you take up room in the payload bay a yes but the improvement in boost orbit to the hst is significant and that means you can then carry edo packs and enough consumables so the shuttle mission can go on long enough to also fix the array tilt motors and god knows what else is going to wear out on the hst in the next months pat
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters how energetic could they be in article rou ginn s gap caltech edu palmer cco caltech edu david m palmer writes prb access digex com pat writes in article apr vax mankato msus edu belgarath vax mankato msus edu writes energetic for close by for the coronal model we found around erg sec and lastly for the cosmological model an l that s what you d call moderately energetic i d say any suggestions about what could put out that much energy in one second jeremy big capacitor real big capacitor it s been suggested specifically lightning strikes between clouds in the interstellar medium how big of a lightning rod would you need for protection and would you need jupiter as a ground plane pat
sci.space	re internet resources in article c c k fa cs cmu edu stk vax stockton edu writes i am taking a course entitled exploring science using internet for our final project we are to find a compendium of internet resources dealing with a science related topic i chose astronomy anyway i was wondering if anyone out there knew of any interesting resources on internet that provide information on astronomy space nasa or anything like that do you know of the world wide web this is a global hypertext well hypermedia network running on the internet one of the nice things about it is that is understands and incorporates virtually all of the other systems being used like wais gopher ftp archie etc it is usually quite easy to add existing resources to the web if you d like to explore i d suggest getting the xmosaic program written at the ncsa it s an x windows web browser and is pretty slick it can understand and cope with more than text gif jpeg mpeg audio etc there are other browsers including a text mode browser for people stuck on a text terminal but i m most familliar with mosaic under the page the world wide web virtual library subject catalogue this is available under the documents menu in mosaic or by any browser via the url http info cern ch hypertext datasources bysubject overview html there is a subject space science currently this points to a page under construction with only the nasa jpl ftp archive i ve volunteered to take over this page and in fact i have a replacement with all sorts of information pointers mostly gleaned from the sci space faq as soon as the overworked subject catalogue maintainer switches the space science pointer it ll be visible i ll post a short note when this happens frederick g m roeber cern european center for nuclear research e mail roeber cern ch or roeber caltech edu work r mail cern ppe geneva switzerland home sorry baby i can t take you to the pizza joint tonight i ve got to go back to the lab and split the atom ayn rand what is romanticism
sci.space	re internet resources in article c c k fa cs cmu edu stk vax stockton edu writes i am taking a course entitled exploring science using internet for our final project we are to find a compendium of internet resources dealing with a science related topic i chose astronomy anyway i was wondering if anyone out there knew of any interesting resources on internet that provide information on astronomy space nasa or anything like that robert mcelwaine is the authoritative source of scientific data on internet he can be reached alt fan mc elwaine spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c st kocrsv delcoelect com software technology delco electronics gm hughes electronics kokomo in i post therefore i armm
sci.space	re statement by nasa administrator daniel s g if this man clark is a nasa administrator then god save nasa of course the shuttles record is unrivaled there is only one shuttle furthermore there is only likely to be one shuttle now that hermes and boron are effectively cancelled these officials should spend more of their time explaining to their european and asian partners how we are expected to believe in them when their paymasters change their minds on major international projects everytime a new us administration takes office considering the major impacts this has on the european and asian japanese industry it is also appreciated how this affects american industry i am of course talking about space stattion freedom dennis newport email devdjn space alcbel be alcatel bell telephone berkenrodelei phone hoboken belgium
sci.space	re philosophy quest how boldly in article apr hemlock cray com bobo thejester cray com bob kierski writes there are a number of philosophical questions that i would like to ask if we encounter a life form during our space exploration how do we determine if we should capture it imprison it and then discect it analog sf magazine did an article on a similar subject quite a few years ago the question was if an alien spacecraft landed in washington d c what was the proper organization to deal with it the state department alien ambassadors the defense department alien invaders the immigration and naturalization service illegal aliens the department of the interior new non human species etc it was very much a question of our perception of the aliens not of anything intrinsic in their nature the bibliography for the article cited a philosophical paper the name and author of which i sadly forget i believe the author was italian on what constitutes a legal and or moral person i e a being entitled to the rights normally accorded to a person the paper was quite interesting as i recall if we encounter a civilization that is suffering economicly will we expend resources from earth to help them i think you d have to be very careful here if the answer is yes the human track record on helping those poor underpriveleged cultures does underpriveleged mean not having enough priveleges is terrible the usual result is the destruction or radical reorganization of the culture this may not always be wrong but that s the way to bet with all of the deseases we currently have that are deadly and undetectable what will be done to ensure that more new deadly deseases aren t brought back or that our deseases don t destroy life elsewhere have a day bobo doug loss loss husky bloomu edu
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days in article rq os i access digex net prb access digex net pat writes in article t nhg rpi edu strider clotho acm rpi edu greg moore writes as herny pointed out you have to develop the thruster also while much lighter you still have to lift the mass of the thruster to orbit and then the thruster lifts its own weight into a higher orbit and you take up room in the payload bay a yes but the improvement in boost orbit to the hst is significant i do not understand what you are saying here what is improved what is significant and what does this have to do with carrying more equipment on a servicing mission also as implied by other posters why do you need to boost the orbit on this mission anyway maybe you have something here but could you please clarify it for us on the net and that means you can then carry edo packs and enough consumables so the shuttle mission can go on long enough to also fix the array tilt motors and god knows what else is going to wear out from what i ve heard the motors are fine it is one of the two sets of electronics that control the motors that needs a fix the motors and electronics are separate pieces of hardware i expect to be corrected if i m wrong on this on the hst in the next months pat
sci.space	re internet resources in article c c k fa cs cmu edu stk vax stockton edu writes i am taking a course entitled exploring science using internet for our final project we are to find a compendium of internet resources dealing with a science related topic i chose astronomy anyway i was wondering if anyone out there knew of any interesting resources on internet that provide information on astronomy space nasa or anything like that thanks keith malinowski stk vax stockton edu p o box stockton state college pomona new jersey try doing a keyword search under gopher using veronica or accessing a world wide web server also finger yanoff csd csd uwm edu for a list of internet resources which includes sites with space specific information i am sure ron baalke will have told you about what is available at jpl etc best regards ata mail dr ata etemadi blackett laboratory space and atmospheric physics group imperial college of science technology and medicine prince consort road london sw bz england internet arpanet earn bitnet atae spva ph ic ac uk or ata c mssl ucl ac uk span spva atae or msslc atae uucp usenet atae spva ph ic nsfnet relay ac uk
sci.space	re satellite around pluto mission in article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes being wierd again so be warned being what oh weird ok i m warned is there a plan to put a satellite around each planet in the solar system to keep watch i help it better to ask questions before i spout an opinion keep watch for what how about a mission unmanned to pluto to stay in orbit and record things around and near and on pluto i know it is a strange idea but why not oh the several tens or hundreds of millions of dollars it would cost to record things there and i d prefer a manned mission anyway it could do some scanning of not only pluto but also of the solar system objects near and aaroundpluto as well as seti and looking at the galaxy without having much of the solar system to worry about we ve already got a pretty good platform to scan the solar system as well as seti and looking at the galaxy without having much of the solar system to worry about care to guess where it is shag rob unverzagt shag aerospace aero org tuesday is soylent green day unverzagt courier aero org
sci.space	re true globe who makes it in article mju zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes in article bill m xpresso uucp bill xpresso uucp bill vance writes it has been known for quite a while that the earth is actually more pear shaped than globular spherical does anyone make a globe that is accurate as to actual shape landmass configuration long lat lines etc i don t think you re going to be able to see the differences from a sphere unless they are greatly exaggerated even the equatorial bulge is only about part in you d never notice a mm error in a cm globe and the other deviations from spherical shape are much smaller svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry i remember a physic prof who talked about scaling a cue ball to earth size its was significantly less spherical that the earth terry f figurelle boeing defense space group email tff plato ds boeing com po box mail stop j ea phone fax seattle wa terry f figurelle boeing defense space group email tff plato ds boeing com po box mail stop j ea phone fax seattle wa
sci.space	u s government and technolgy investment people who criticize big government and its projects rarely seem to have a consistent view of the role of government in science and technology basically the u s government has gotten into the role of supporting research which private industry finds too expensive or too long term historically this role for the u s gov t was forced upon it because of socialism in other countries in order for u s industries to compete with government subsidized foreign competitors the u s gov t has taken on the role of subisizing big ticket or long lead r d as a republican i abhor the necessity for our government to involve itself in technology this way i believe that market forces should drive technology and the world would be a better place for it but the whole world would have to implement this concept simultaneously or some countries would have subsidized r d while others would not so the u s must subsidize because everybody else does this sounds a lot like the farm subsidies arguments behind our gatt negotiations doesn t it but this role of government subsidies is antithetical to cost effectiveness the general idea is to spend money on new technology and thereby maintain and promote our technological culture despite the forces in the business world like the dreaded quarterly earnings report which erode the ability of u s industry to invest in new technology and since our goal is to spend money it makes little sense to try to save money of course we could always spend our money more wisely but everybody disagrees about that the wisdom should be it s interesting to note that some of our best tools for cost control available in industry today were derived from government projects gantt charts cp m and most of the modern scheduling software comes from dod projects and their contractors the construction industry has taken these tools to the core of their businesses every large construction project now uses these tools ken jenks nasa jsc gm space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov a scientist can discover a new star but he cannot make one he would have to ask an engineer to do that gordon l glegg american engineer
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days in article c a at e z zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes no the thing is designed to be retrievable in a pinch indeed this dictated a rather odd design for the solar arrays since they had to be retractable as well as extendable and may thus have indirectly contributed to the array flapping problems why not design the solar arrays to be detachable if the shuttle is going to retunr the hst what bother are some arrays just fit them with a quick release one space walk or use the second canadarm to remove the arrays pat
sci.space	re what planets are habitable in article rpt v q h hsc usc edu khayash hsc usc edu ken hayashida writes as for human tolerances the best example of human endurance in terms of altitude i e low atmospheric pressure and lower oxygen partial pressure is in my opinion to the scaling of mt everest without oxygen assistance this is quite a feat of physiological endurance indeed so it s at the extreme limit of what is humanly possible it is possible only because mount everest is at a fairly low latitude there is a slight equatorial bulge in the atmosphere beyond what is induced by the earth s rotation thanks to the overall circulation pattern of the atmosphere air cools at poles and descends flowing back to equator where it is warmed and rises and this helps just enough to make everest without oxygen feasible only just feasible mind you the guys who did it reported hallucinations and other indications of oxygen starvation and probably incurred some permanent brain damage svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days in article apr stsci edu hathaway stsci edu writes in article rq os i access digex net prb access digex net pat writes in article t nhg rpi edu strider clotho acm rpi edu greg moore writes as herny pointed out you have to develop the thruster also while much lighter you still have to lift the mass of the thruster to orbit and then the thruster lifts its own weight into a higher orbit and you take up room in the payload bay a yes but the improvement in boost orbit to the hst is significant i do not understand what you are saying here what is improved what is significant and what does this have to do with carrying more equipment on a servicing mission also as implied by other posters why do you need to boost the orbit on this mission anyway maybe you have something here but could you please clarify it for us on the net right now the hst sevicing mission is listed as days before it was listed as days they just kicked up the number of spacewalks to after simulations indicated that it was not do able in after all the space walking they are going to re boost the hst s orbit i think right now it s sitting at miles up they would like i don t know the exact orbit numbers i know when hst was first flown it was placed in the highest possible shuttle orbit now the shuttle can cary a thing called the edo pallet or extended duration orbiter pallet it s mostly lox lh for the fuel cells and rcs gear plus more o and canisters for the life support re breathers maybe more nitrogen too the limit on space walking is a function of suit supplies mass and orbiter duration in order to perform the re boost of the hst the oms engines will be fired for a long period now the shuttle is a heavy thing the hst isn t light either the amount of oms fuel needed to fly both up is substantial a small booster carried up and used to boost hst on it s own will weigh significantly less then the oms fuel required to boost both hst and shuttle for a given orbital change from what i understand the mass margins on the hst missions are tight enough they can t even carry extra suits or mmu s now if they used a small tug i would bet just a wild guess that the savings on amss margin would allow carrying the edo pallet extra suits more consumables parts for the flaky fgs sensor parts for the balky solar electronics and still enough for a double magnum of champagne or the hst could even get placed into some sort of medium orbit the reason they want a high orbit is less antenna pointing and longer drag life and that means you can then carry edo packs and enough consumables so the shuttle mission can go on long enough to also fix the array tilt motors and god knows what else is going to wear out from what i ve heard the motors are fine it is one of the two sets of electronics that control the motors that needs a fix the motors and electronics are separate pieces of hardware i expect to be corrected if i m wrong on this a whatever it is the problem in the tilt array is a big constraint on hst ops pat
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they in article apr judy uh edu wingo cspara decnet fedex msfc nasa gov writes in article rlrpv ta access digex net prb access digex com pat writes is this a big enough problem to create a new area of physics just a little speculative thinking folks pat well pat for once i agree with you and i like your first idea that you had it probably is the gamma ray signature of the warp transitions of interstellar spacecraft dennis we agree a lot it s just we don t both post when we agree on something and when we disagree it tends to be a lot more noticeable pat
sci.space	hst antenna ok i haven t seen any mention of this in a while so here goes when the hubble telescope was first deployed one of its high gain antennas was not able to be moved across its full range of motion it was suspected that it had been snagged on a cable or something operational procedures were modified to work around the problem and later problems have overshadowed the hga problem is there any plan to look at the affected hga during the hst repair mission to determine the cause of its limited range of motion is the affected hga still limited or is it now capable of full range of motion steve derry s d derry larc nasa gov
sci.space	re rocket types in article rpv o k wraith cs uow edu au u wraith cs uow edu au glen justin balmer writes it said that in the s they developed a rocket that used ions or nuclear particles for propolsion the government however didn t give them billion for the developement i d guess this was a garbled report of the nerva effort to develop a solid core fission rocket the most mundane type of nuclear rocket that was the only advanced propulsion project that was done on a large enough scale to be likely to attract news attention it could be any number of things the description given is awfully vague but i d put a small bet on nerva svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re deployable space dock in article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes why not build a inflatable space dock if you re doing large scale satellite servicing being able to do it in a pressurized hangar makes considerable sense the question is whether anyone is going to be doing large scale satellite servicing in the near future to the point of justifying development of such a thing inflate the dock with a gas is does not have to be oxygen just neeeds to be non flameble non damaging to the satellite and abel to maintain heat you d almost certainly use air given that you have to pressurize with something safety considerations strongly suggest making it breathable even if the servicing crew is using oxygen masks for normal breathing to avoid needing a ventilation system it s nice if the hangar atmosphere is breathable in a pinch it makes mask functioning much less critical svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re satellite around pluto mission in article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes is there a plan to put a satellite around each planet in the solar system to keep watch there would be some point to doing long term monitoring of things like particles and fields not to mention atmospheric phenomena however there is no particular plan to establish any sort of monitoring network to be precise there is no particular plan period this is a large part of the problem in this context it s not surprising that unexciting but useful missions like this get short shrift at budget time the closest approach to any sort of long term planetary monitoring mission is the occasional chance to piggyback something like this on top of a flashier mission like galileo or cassini how about a mission unmanned to pluto to stay in orbit and record things around and near and on pluto it is most unlikely that there is much happening on pluto that would be worth monitoring and it is a prohibitively difficult mission to fly without new propulsion technology something the planetary community has firmly resisted being the guinea pigs for the combined need to arrive at pluto within a reasonable amount of time and then kill nearly all of the cruise velocity to settle into an orbit is beyond what can reasonably be done with current that is s vintage propulsion it could do some scanning of not only pluto but also of the solar system objects near and aaroundpluto as well as seti and looking at the galaxy without having much of the solar system to worry about most of this can be done just about as well from earth the few things that can t be can be done better from a voyager like spacecraft that is not constrained by the need to enter orbit around a planet svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days pat prb access digex net wrote the limit on space walking is a function of suit supplies mass and orbiter duration in order to perform the re boost of the hst the oms engines will be fired for a long period now the shuttle is a heavy thing the hst isn t light either the amount of oms fuel needed to fly both up is substantial a small booster carried up and used to boost hst on it s own will weigh significantly less then the oms fuel required to boost both hst and shuttle for a given orbital change from what i understand the mass margins on the hst missions are tight enough they can t even carry extra suits or mmu s pat i haven t seen any specifics on the hst repair mission but i can t see why the mass margins are tight what are they carrying up replacement components wfpc ii costar gyros solar panels and probably a few others all sorts of tools eva equipment and as much oms fuel and consumables as they can this should be lighter than the original hst deployment mission which achieved the highest altitude for a shuttle mission to date and hst is now in a lower orbit seems like the limiting factors would be crew fatigue and mission complexity steve derry s d derry larc nasa gov
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days in article apr stsci edu hathaway stsci edu writes also as implied by other posters why do you need to boost the orbit on this mission anyway you don t need to but it s desirable hst like all satellites in low earth orbit is gradually losing altitude due to air drag it was deployed in the highest orbit the shuttle could reach for that reason it needs occasional reboosting or it will eventually reenter it has no propulsion system of its own this is an excellent opportunity given that there may not be another visit for several years svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re temperature of the dark sky in article apr princeton edu richmond spiff princeton edu stupendous man writes if that s the case let me point out that interstellar dust and molecules provide many instances of things that are well not too far from being blackbodies many different observations including iras and cobe have determined that interstellar dust grain temperatures can range from k to k interstellar grains are not at all close to blackbodies the large grains have sizes of order micron and absorb visible light with fair efficiency however at temperatures below k of the thermal emission will be beyond microns where radiating efficiency is poor a small antenna cannot easily radiate at long wavelengths thus the grains must heat up more in order to radiate the energy they have absorbed moreover the iras observations had a maximum wavelength of microns grains colder than k will radiate primarily at longer wavelengths and iras would be relatively insensitive to them in the extreme limit grains as cold as k will be almost undetectable by any conceivable observation worse still iras color temperatures are heavily contaminated by a population of small grains these grains have only perhaps atoms and when they are hit by a single photon they heat up to temperatures of several hundred or k of course they cool quickly and then stay cold for a while but when they are radiating the characteristic temperature is several hundred k even a small population of these grains can dramatically raise the observed average temperature a model for local infrared emission consistent with cobe data has three components these represent scattered radiation from zodiacal dust color temperature k thermal emission from zodiacal dust tc k and thermal emission from galactic dust tc k at the ecliptic poles the emissivities or dilution factors are respectively e e and e the first two are roughly doubled in the ecliptic plane to find the thermal equilibrium temperature we add up the dilution factor times the fourth power of temperature for all components then take the fourth root in the table below starlight comes from allen s number that stellar emission from the whole sky is equivalent to zero mag stars with b v color of no doubt careful work could do much better the person who suggested starlight had a dilution factor of e must have been remembering wrong we would be cooked if that were the case in any event the energy density of starlight comes out about the same as that of the microwave background and i believe that to be correct dilution temp dt microwave background galactic dust e zodiacal dust emission e zodiacal dust scattering e starlight e the fourth root of is k outside the solar system the result would be k i find these results surprising especially the importance of zodiacal dust but i don t see any serious mistakes steve willner phone bitnet willner cfa cambridge ma usa internet willner cfa harvard edu member league for programming freedom contact lpf uunet uu net
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky in article c agi mju news cso uiuc edu jbh uxa cso uiuc edu josh hopkins writes i m wondering if vandalize is the proper word to use in this situation my dictionary defines vandalism as the willful or malicious destructuion of public or private property especially of anything beautiful or artisitc i would agree the sky is beautiful but not that it is public or private property it s public because it belongs to everybody it s vandalism because many people power companies do maliciously waste light if they can sell you or your city or your state an unshielded light that wastes to percent of its light they make more money never mind that your money is wasted never mind that taxpaper s money is wasted never mind that the sky is ruined bob bunge greed is great gordon grekko
sci.space	moon image in weather sat image an image of the moon has been caught in a weather satellite images of the earth it appears in both the ut ir and visual images of the earth the gif images can be down loaded from vmd cso uiuc edu and are named ci gif and cv gif for the ir and visual images respectively pretty cool pictures in the ir it s saturated but in the visual image details on the moon are viewable the moon is not in the ut images george wm turner turner bigbang astro indiana edu
sci.space	sarsat for tracking payload deployed by tether we are interested in constructing a reentry vehicle to be deployed from a tether attached to an orbiting platform this will be a follow on to our succesful deployment of a kilometer tether on the march flight of seds small expendable deployment system which released an instrumented payload that reentered the earth s atmosphere and burned up over the west coast of mexico this time we want to make a payload that can be recovered we want to build it from off the shelf technology so as to do this as quickly and inexpensively as possible we want to be able to track the payload after it has deployed its parachute an idea we have is to put the same kind of radio beacon on it that is used with sarsats search and rescue satellites it would turn on with the opening of the parachute and aid in tracking these beacons are known in the marine industry as epirbs emergency position indicating radio beacon they are rugged they have to be to survive a ship wreck and cheap we have several questions what is the world authority regulating the use of sarsat beacons are there multiple authorites i e military and civilian what are the regulations regarding the use of sarsat signals can they be used for one of a kind situations with a long lead time of warning the relevant authorities or are they strictly reserved for life threatening emergencies what is the coverage of sarsats are they in leo with only intermittant coverage of a fixed position on the earth or are they in geosynchronous orbit is there an industry organization governing the use and manufacture of these transponders please post replies here or send e mail to me at fennell well sf ca us thanak you very much for any assistance you can provide mike fennell
sci.space	re hst servicing mission in article rrhlo ajb access digex net prb access digex net pat writes after all the space walking they are going to re boost the hst s orbit i think right now it s sitting at miles up they would like where did that idea come from it s news to me ben
sci.space	re moon image in weather sat image in article c b pa my usenet ucs indiana edu turner bigbang astro indiana edu george wm turner writes an image of the moon has been caught in a weather satellite images of the earth it appears in both the ut ir and visual images of the earth the gif images can be down loaded from vmd cso uiuc edu and are named ci gif and cv gif for the ir and visual images respectively pretty cool pictures in the ir it s saturated but in the visual image details on the moon are viewable near midsummer you can see the relfection of the sun in the ocean also during solar eclise you can see the shadow of the sun move across the clouds
sci.space	re space station redesign jsc alternative in article ralibinnc f cbl umd edu mike starburst umd edu michael f santangelo writes dbm tm lerc nasa gov david b mckissock writes text of options a and b deleted option c single core launch station this is the jsc lead option basically you take a ft diameter cylinder that s ft long slap space shuttle main engines on the backside put a nose cone on the top attached it to a regular shuttle external tank and a regular set of solid rocket motors and launch the can some key features are complete end to end ground integration and checkout tangentially mounted fixed solar panels body mounted radiators which adds protection against micrometeroid orbital debris centerline docking ports one on each end berthing ports a single pressurized volume approximately cubic feet twice the volume of skylab floors center passageway between floors kw of housekeeping power somehow i have a strange attraction for this idea living in a modular home maybe has altered my mind the only thing that scares me is the part about simply strapping ssme s and a nosecone on it and just launching it i have this vision of something going terribly wrong with the launch resulting in the complete loss of the new modular space station not just a peice of it as would be the case with staged in orbit construction i certainly like this option c it s much more like the original phase b studies from the early s good stuff dave michelson davem ee ubc ca university of british columbia
sci.space	re abyss breathing fluids in apr cc ic ac uk atae spva ph ic ac uk ata etemadi writes the forever war one of my favorite scifi books had a passage devoted to breathing fluids the idea was to protect people from the high accelerations required for interstellar travel by emersing the passengers in dry cleaning fluid saturated with oxygen plenty of very imaginative ideas is this book i would certainly recommend it won the hugo and the nebula awards and most definitely read it in conjunction with heinlein s starship trooper the two books are radically different viewpoints of the same basic premises i ve even heard tell of english classes built around this insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky in c y t w news cso uiuc edu gfk uxa cso uiuc edu george f krumins writes it is so typical that the rights of the minority are extinguished by the wants of the majority no matter how ridiculous those wants might be right what right and don t you mean something more like it so typical that the wants of the minority can obstruct the wants of the majority no matter how ridiculous those minority wants might be or what benefits those majority wants might have my sole connection with the project is that i spent a lot of time in classes at the university of colorado insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky in c na c news cso uiuc edu gfk uxa cso uiuc edu george f krumins writes i was suggesting that the minority of professional and amateur astronomers have the right to a dark uncluttered night sky and from whence does this right stem that it overrides the rights of the rest of us let me give you an example when you watch tv they have commercials to pay for the programming you accept that as part of watching if you don t like it you can turn it off if you want to view the night sky and there is a floating billboard out there you can t turn it off it s the same reasoning that limits billboards in scenic areas and if you want to view that television station you have to watch the commercials you can t turn them off and still be viewing the television station in other words if you don t like what you see don t look there is no right i can think of that you have to force other people to conform to your idea of aesthetic behaviour what s next laws regulating how people must dress and look so as to appeal to your fashion sense since you have this right of an aesthetic view pat writes george it s called a democracy the majority rules sorry if ytou don t like it i suggest you modify the constitution to include a constitutional right to dark skies the theory of government here is that the majority rules except in the nature of fundamental civil rights i say any reasonably in depth perusal of american history will show you that many wasps have continued the practices of prejudice discrimination and violence against others of different races religions and beliefs despite the law which has what to do with the topic of discussion pat says if you really are annoyed get some legislation to create a dark sky zone where in all light emissions are protected in the zone kind of like the national radio quiet zone did you know about that near teh radio telescope observatory in west virginia they have a mile emcon zone theoretically they can prevent you from running light ac motors like air conditioners and vacuums in practice they use it mostly to control large radio users i say what i m objecting to here is a floating billboard that presumably would move around in the sky i for one am against legislating at all i just wish that people had a bit of common courtesy and would consider how their greed for money impacts the more ethereal and aesthetic values that make us human this includes the need for wild and unspoiled things including the night sky oh i see you don t want any legislation that might impinge on you you just want everyone else on the planet to do what you want insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
sci.space	re long term human missions in jgladu jgladu bcm tmc edu grungy writes in article apr wisipc weizmann ac il ward pashosh wisdom weizmann ac il ward paul wrote if you want people to back the space program it must be a good thing in and of itself i think we should tell them about the things that they are using now that are spinoffs of the space program that is the only way you can prove its worth to them and they vote and pay taxes too the continued existence of the space program relies upon that money i have to agree with ward the problem with your approach is they add up what you can reasonably claim as spin offs add up what s been spent on space and then come back with something like you spent x billion for that wouldn t it be better just to spend the money on direct research and forget all this space stuff we could have got all that stuff a lot cheaper that way space is wasteful and inefficient then they cancel your funding and spend it studying mating rituals of new guinea tribesmen or something insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
sci.space	re satellite around pluto mission in apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes being wierd again so be warned is there a plan to put a satellite around each planet in the solar system to keep watch i help it better to ask questions before i spout an opinion how about a mission unmanned to pluto to stay in orbit and record things around and near and on pluto i know it is a strange idea but why not it could do some scanning of not only pluto but also of the solar system objects near and aaroundpluto as well as seti and looking at the galaxy without having much of the solar system to worry about doing this in anything like reasonable time would require more propulsion capability than we can manage you would have to boost to pluto and then slow back down you could do something like a hohman orbit but i think that would take ridiculous amounts of time my rubber bible is at home insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
sci.space	nasa contributions teflon a contribution from the space program since the french were using teflon on household items in the early s it is unlikely that it was invented by nasa as for pacemakers and calculators again those are anecdotally connected with nasa maximus wb
sci.space	boeing tsto was words from chairman of boeing games max u washington edu writes re response from cob of boeing on ssto as far as single stage to orbit technology we think that we have a better answer in a two stage approach and we are talking to some of our customers about that as far as commercialization that is a long ways off anybody know anything further is this really news does this threaten further work on dc boeing has been looking at several tsto vehicles and has carried out extensive conceptual studies of advanced launch systems for some time a good reference on this might be comparison of propulsion options for advanced earth to orbit eto applications iaf by v a weldon and l e fink from boeing the paper describes a propane fueled tsto launch system claimed to achieve aircraft like operational efficiencies without the problems associated with liquid hydrogen fuel basically it s a high speed airplane launching a hermes type spaceplane the design the concept is also called beta as laid out in the paper can launch at least pounds into polar orbit or pounds to space station orbit including a crew of eight persons and life support system design reliability is beta is a foot long first stage powered by two large ramjets and high speed civil transport hsct turbofans a foot long reusable orbiter is trapeze mounted in the belly of the first stage aircraft which also could accommodate a longer and heavy payload on an expendable second stage to launch the orbital vehicle the first stage takes off like a normal hsct and accelerates to mach at that point the turbofans modified to burn catalyzed jp would shut off and the ramjets would take over at mach the orbiter or the elv would swing out ignite and proceed to orbit both vehicles would land like aircraft at the conclusion of their respective missions estimated total weight of the combined configuration at takeoff is about m lbs roughly equivalanet to a fully loaded an the orbiter stages weighs about klbs including klbs of lox and subcooled propane to power two klbs vacuum thrust rocket engines propellants would be stored at degrees kelvin with the propane in a spherical tank mounted forward of the by foot cargo bay and the two seat orbiter crew station lox would be stored aft weldon and fink claim the key to this design s success is the structurally efficient airframe and the compact tankage allowed by the high density supercooled hydrocarbon fuel the paper compares tsto design to ssto design they conclude while a ssto has a slightly lower recurring cost a tsto is easier cheaper and less risky to develop simpler to build has greater safety and mission versatility and doesn t carry the hard to handle and bulky hydrogen fuel the conlcude in conjunction with its major use of airplane type engines and fuel as well as its inherent self ferry capability it is probably the system most likely to provide as close to airline like operations as possible with a practical configuration until a single stage airbreather rocket concept can be shown to be operationally viable is this really news does this threaten further work on dc weldon and others at boeing have been working on tsto designs for some time i expect this or a similar concept perhaps the hthl ssto they proposed for the sdio ssto first phase is being re examined as a basis for a bid on the first phase of spacelifter does it threaten dc possibly there is a set of on going studies trying straighten out the government s future space transportation strategy mdc and boeing as well as other firms are providing data to a joint study team back in dc there are various factions and options vying for attention including shuttle upgrades shuttle replacement what was called the architecture spacelifter elv upgrades and various advanced vehicles ales beta dc nasp fsts sstos of several types etc nasa dod dot are trying to put together a coherent strategy for future us gov t space transportation systems and trying to juggle near term launch needs like for dod and nasa against medium term needs including commercial considerations and against the investment and risk of going to leap frog new technologies like sdio ssto and nasp and beta it s a heck of a problem the worst part of the problem isn t that there aren t promising ideas and concepts there are dozens of them but how they balance cost and risk versus real needs in the near term they should have a draft report in mid june with a final report coming by the end of the fiscal year wales larrison space technology investor maximus wb
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days in article rrhlo ajb access digex net prb access digex net pat writes in article apr stsci edu hathaway stsci edu writes in article rq os i access digex net prb access digex net pat writes in article t nhg rpi edu strider clotho acm rpi edu greg moore writes after all the space walking they are going to re boost the hst s orbit i think right now it s sitting at miles up they would like i don t know the exact orbit numbers as ben says this re boost idea is all news to us here do you know something we don t please supply a source it would be nice for the schedulers of observations to know where the thing is going to be these altitude numbers are also way off my best source has minimum st altitude in the pmdb is kilometers maximum st altitude in the pmdb is kilometers delta st altitude in the pmdb is kilometers pmdb is proposal management data base used to schedule observations in order to perform the re boost of the hst the oms engines will be fired for a long period now the shuttle is a heavy thing the hst isn t light either the amount of oms fuel needed to fly both up is substantial a small booster carried up and used to boost hst on it s own will weigh significantly less then the oms fuel required to boost both hst and shuttle for a given orbital change could you supply some calculations you might check some recent postings that explained that a small booster as suggested does not now exist so comparing the mass of something that doesn t exist to the mass of the oms fuel seems impossible the contamination threat also remains or the hst could even get placed into some sort of medium orbit the reason they want a high orbit is less antenna pointing and longer drag life longer drag life i can understand but could you explain the antenna pointing whatever it is the problem in the tilt array is a big constraint on hst ops tell me about it although the arrays can be and are moved perfectly well utilizing the second electronics box getting them both working is much desireable so as to reclaim redundancy pat i don t mean to jump on you helpful suggestions are always welcome and we all know the more ideas the better but i do want the true situation to be described clearly and correctly lest some get confused regards wm hathaway
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days in article rrjsjinnop rave larc nasa gov sdd larc nasa gov steve derry writes pat prb access digex net wrote the limit on space walking is a function of suit supplies mass and orbiter duration i haven t seen any specifics on the hst repair mission but i can t see why the mass margins are tight what are they carrying up replacement components wfpc ii costar gyros solar panels and probably a few others all sorts of tools eva equipment and as much oms fuel and consumables as they can this should be lighter than the original hst deployment mission which achieved the highest altitude for a shuttle mission to date and hst is now in a lower orbit seems like the limiting factors would be crew fatigue and mission complexity steve derry s d derry larc nasa gov one thing to recall putting a satellite as high as possible is one thing coming back to not only that altitude but matching the position of it in its orbit on a subsequent mission is another thing any misalignment of the plane of the orbit during launch or being ahead or behind the target will require more fuel to adjust this was considered in the original deployment i agree though that the demands on the crew and complexity are stupendous one has to admire how much they are trying to do wm hathaway baltimore md
sci.space	re space spinn offs i just wanted to point out that teflon wasn t from the space program it was from the wwii nuclear weapons development program pipes in the system for fractioning and enriching uranium had to be lined with it uranium hexafloride was the chemical they turned the pitchblend into for enrichment it is massively corrosive even to stainless steels hence the need for a very inert substaance to line the pipes with teflon has all its molecular sockets bound up already so it is very unreactive my sense worth bill
sci.space	re moon image in weather sat image in article apr unocal com stgprao st unocal com richard ottolini writes in article c b pa my usenet ucs indiana edu turner bigbang astro indiana edu george wm turner writes an image of the moon has been caught in a weather satellite images of the earth it appears in both the ut ir and visual images of the earth the gif images can be down loaded from vmd cso uiuc edu and are named ci gif and cv gif for the ir and visual images respectively pretty cool pictures in the ir it s saturated but in the visual image details on the moon are viewable near midsummer you can see the relfection of the sun in the ocean also during solar eclise you can see the shadow of the sun move across the clouds speaking of which a paper was out a few years ago about a weather sat imaging a lunar eclipse are those images uploaded anywhere i could dig out the reference if there s interest shag rob unverzagt shag aerospace aero org tuesday is soylent green day unverzagt courier aero org
sci.space	re space spinn offs in article rruis do bigboote wpi edu wfbrown wpi wpi edu william f brown writes from wfbrown wpi wpi edu william f brown subject re space spinn offs date apr gmt i just wanted to point out that teflon wasn t from the space program it was from the wwii nuclear weapons development program pipes in the system for fractioning and enriching uranium had to be lined with it uranium hexafloride was the chemical they turned the pitchblend into for enrichment it is massively corrosive even to stainless steels hence the need for a very inert substaance to line the pipes with teflon has all its molecular sockets bound up already so it is very unreactive my sense worth bill the artifical pacemaker was invented in by wilson greatbatch an american biomedical engineer the bill authorizing nasa was signed in october of so it is clear that nasa had nothing to do with the invention of the pacemaker
sci.space	re space manuevering tug was hst servicing mission prb access digex net pat writes given that what i described for the hst seemed to be the smt and given the mass amrgins on the discovery mission is tight enough that spacewalking has to be carefully constrained no edo pallets no spare suits no extra mmu s has someone actually verified that mass is the predominant constraint on this mission you seem to be assuming it without giving supporting evidence why not do this quick test goldins philosophjy of faster cheaper better build a real fast space tug to handle the re boost of the hst using clean cryo fuels and get it ready before the hst mission pat this would be slower more expensive and worse slower the shuttle mission is scheduled to go up in december that s less than eight months away there is no way you could build new hardware retrain and reschedule the eva s in that time more expensive your proposal still requires the shuttle to do everything it was going to do execpt fire the oms in addition you ve added significant extra cost for a new piece of complex hardware according to a gao report on the omv i have before me there are only two currently planned missions that could use such a vehicle hst and axaf since axaf has since been scaled back and hst can rely on the shuttle there doesn t seem to be any need for your vehicle josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find a way or make one attributed to hannibal
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky in article apr mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com fred j mccall writes in c na c news cso uiuc edu gfk uxa cso uiuc edu george f krumins writes i was suggesting that the minority of professional and amateur astronomers have the right to a dark uncluttered night sky and from whence does this right stem that it overrides the rights of the rest of us let me get this right sorry try again let me get this straight well maybe that too is a poor choice of words someone might think i m pushing a gay agenda how about let me try to understand this by re phrasing it as an extreme i as a minority of one have no right to a beautiful world you on the other hand have the right to make an ugly one because you presume to speak for all the rest and i cannot complain curious i say what i m objecting to here is a floating billboard that presumably would move around in the sky i for one am against legislating at all i just wish that people had a bit of common courtesy and would consider how their greed for money impacts the more ethereal and aesthetic values that make us human this includes the need for wild and unspoiled things including the night sky oh i see you don t want any legislation that might impinge on you you just want everyone else on the planet to do what you want and do you want everyone to do as you wish insist on putting something up that will impact everyone for selfish reasons without any legislation and no one else can even object somehow i think this whole shoving contest has gotten way off the track i m ready to let this thread die a quick and merciful death insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me wm hathaway baltimore md
sci.space	re single launch space station in article c qa j w cs cmu edu mcimail com karl dishaw wrote andy cohen cohen ssdgwy mdc com writes the single launch core station concept a shuttle external tank and solid rocket boosters would be used to launch the station into orbit shuttle main engines would be mounted to the tail of the station module for launch and jettisoned after et separation why jettison the ssmes why not hold on to them and have a shuttle bring them down to use as spares good question i asked that myself however since this option is as expensive as the freedom derivative the issue will likely be moot
sci.space	re long term human missions in article jgladu bcm tmc edu grungy writes ward pashosh wisdom weizmann ac il ward paul wrote calculators teflon so your eggs don t stick in the pan pacemakers kept my grandfather alive from until i think we should tell them about the things that they are using now that are spinoffs of the space program that is the only way you can prove its worth to them and they vote and pay taxes too the continued existence of the space program relies upon that money just my btw don t forget velcro at least be honest velcro tm dates from the s i have doubts about everything listed above just because it was developed in the space age doesn t mean it was a space spin off btw don t forget tang dong
sci.space	re space station redesign jsc alternative in article apr ee ubc ca davem ee ubc ca dave michelson wrote in article ralibinnc f cbl umd edu mike starburst umd edu michael f santangelo writes dbm tm lerc nasa gov david b mckissock writes text of options a and b deleted option c single core launch station this is the jsc lead option basically you take a ft diameter cylinder that s ft long slap space shuttle main engines on the backside put a nose cone on the top attached it to a regular shuttle external tank and a regular set of solid rocket motors and launch the can some key features are complete end to end ground integration and checkout tangentially mounted fixed solar panels body mounted radiators which adds protection against micrometeroid orbital debris centerline docking ports one on each end berthing ports a single pressurized volume approximately cubic feet twice the volume of skylab floors center passageway between floors kw of housekeeping power somehow i have a strange attraction for this idea living in a modular home maybe has altered my mind the only thing that scares me is the part about simply strapping ssme s and a nosecone on it and just launching it i have this vision of something going terribly wrong with the launch resulting in the complete loss of the new modular space station not just a peice of it as would be the case with staged in orbit construction i certainly like this option c it s much more like the original phase b studies from the early s good stuff this is actually more like the stuff from phase a and mol phase b ended with a power tower approach it s also very expensive in terms of upfront development costs so all you get is a redistribution of costs from the shuttle flights to the contractors who build it
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky rbunge access digex net robert bunge writes in article c agi mju news cso uiuc edu jbh uxa cso uiuc edu josh hopkins writes i m wondering if vandalize is the proper word to use in this situation my dictionary defines vandalism as the willful or malicious destructuion of public or private property especially of anything beautiful or artisitc i would agree the sky is beautiful but not that it is public or private property it s public because it belongs to everybody no the sky does not at this time belong to anyone ownership is necessary to the definition because someone has to have the authority to decide if the action was good or bad if neither you or i own a brick wall then i can t unilaterally declare that spraypainting my name on it is right and you don t have the authority to declare that it is wrong the owner may find it artistic or she may be call the police this applies to the argument on bright satellites more than street lights it s vandalism because many people power companies do maliciously waste light maliciously implies evil intent the lighting companies aren t going out of their way to spoil the sky they just don t care if they can sell you or your city or your state an unshielded light that wastes to percent of its light they make more money never mind that your money is wasted it is the responsibility of the customer to choose the most efficient hardware if that s what your city will buy that s what the lighting company will sell write a letter to city hall please note that i m not defending light pollution the orignial focus of this thread was space based light sources josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find a way or make one attributed to hannibal
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days in article rrgu lp access digex net prb access digex net pat writes no the thing is designed to be retrievable in a pinch indeed this dictated a rather odd design for the solar arrays since they had to be retractable as well as extendable why not design the solar arrays to be detachable if the shuttle is going to retunr the hst what bother are some arrays they can be detached in an emergency but expensive hardware is not thrown away casually bearing in mind that nobody knew the design was defective if the deployment crew had found some nasty flaw the lid failing to open for example it would have been a bit embarrassing to have to throw the solar arrays away to get the thing back in the payload bay svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	mars observer update forwarded from the mars observer project mars observer status report april am pdt dss madrid meter antenna did not acquire the expected mars observer spacecraft signal at the scheduled beginning of track yesterday morning at approximately am indications were that the spacecraft had entered a fault protection mode sometime between that time and receipt of normal telemetry at the end of the previous station pass dss goldstone meter antenna at approximately pm the evening before entry into contingency mode was verified when signal was reacquired and telemetry indicated that the spacecraft was sun coning after subsystem engineers reported all systems performing nominally fault protection telemetry modes were reconfigured and memory readouts of command system audit queue and aacs attitude and articulation control subsystem starex performed these readouts verified that contingency mode entry occurred shortly after am yesterday preliminary indications are that a sun ephemeris check failure triggered fault protection however the flight team will be determining the precise cause over the next few days as of last evening the spacecraft had been commanded back to inertial reference and was stable in that mode the flight team is planning to command the spacecraft back to array normal spin state today magnetometer calibration activities had completed prior to contingency mode entry mag calibration data has been recorded on digital tape recorders and playback of dtrs and scheduled to be completed yesterday was postponed when contingency mode entry halted flight sequence c execution the flight team is developing a strategy to restart c to complete data playback present planning is to perform playbacks between as soon as wednesday or as late as friday of next week dependent on contingency mode recovery activity dtr playback will be performed via the high gain antenna at bits per second upon verification of successful dtr playbacks downlink will be maintained at the k s e rate ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab m s telos the aweto from new zealand pasadena ca is part caterpillar and part vegetable
sci.space	re what planets are habitable in article c az z pd zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes in article rpt v q h hsc usc edu khayash hsc usc edu ken hayashida writes as for human tolerances the best example of human endurance in terms of altitude i e low atmospheric pressure and lower oxygen partial pressure is in my opinion to the scaling of mt everest without oxygen assistance this is quite a feat of physiological endurance indeed so it s at the extreme limit of what is humanly possible it is possible only because mount everest is at a fairly low latitude there is a slight equatorial bulge in the atmosphere beyond what is induced by the earth s rotation thanks to the overall circulation pattern of the atmosphere air cools at poles and descends flowing back to equator where it is warmed and rises and this helps just enough to make everest without oxygen feasible only just feasible mind you the guys who did it reported hallucinations and other indications of oxygen starvation and probably incurred some permanent brain damage climbers regard metres and up as the death zone even on oxygen you are slowly dying at m everest most climbers spend only a short period of time before descending i ve been above once descending as little as m feels like walking into a jungle the air is so thick everest in winter without oxygen no support party alpine style that is the ultimate challenge or is it solo dillon pyron the opinions expressed are those of the ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated when i m here when i m home texans vote no on robin hood we need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions not gestures padi dm
sci.space	re satellite around pluto mission in article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes is there a plan to put a satellite around each planet in the solar system to keep watch i help it better to ask questions before i spout an opinion we ve been progressing towards that goal for years now we precede any orbiting mission with flyby missions of course it gets harder to do as we work our way farther away from earth we re just starting to work out to the outer planets galileo will orbit jupiter and cassini around saturn how about a mission unmanned to pluto to stay in orbit and record things around and near and on pluto well first things first we ll do a flyby mission first since it is much easier and faster to do if the fast pluto flyby mission is approved then we ll launch a pluto mission before the end of the decade a pluto orbiter however requires a larger spacecraft and a longer cruise period orbit insertion requires more fuel has to be carried along and restricts the trajectory to a slower approach velocity to pluto i d imagine though that we would be doing a neptune orbiting mission before a pluto orbiting mission unless the pluto flyby turns up something really interesting ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab m s telos the aweto from new zealand pasadena ca is part caterpillar and part vegetable
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days prb access digex net pat writes in article c a at e z zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes no the thing is designed to be retrievable in a pinch indeed this dictated a rather odd design for the solar arrays since they had to be retractable as well as extendable and may thus have indirectly contributed to the array flapping problems why not design the solar arrays to be detachable if the shuttle is going to retunr the hst what bother are some arrays just fit them with a quick release one space walk or use the second canadarm to remove the arrays you may want to put hubble back in the payload bay for a reboost and you don t want to clip off the panels each time for the gamma ray observatory one of the design requirements was that there be no stored energy mecahnisms springs explosive squibs gas shocks etc used for deployment this was partially so that everything could be reeled back in to put it back in the payload bay and partially for safety considerations i ve heard that the wings on a cruise missile would cut you in half if you were standing in their swath when they opened back when the shuttle would be going up every other day with a cost to orbit of per pound everybody designed things for easy servicing david m palmer palmer alumni caltech edu palmer tgrs gsfc nasa gov
sci.space	re philosophy quest how boldly in article c assy ao fs ece cmu edu loss fs ece cmu edu doug loss writes analog sf magazine did an article on a similar subject quite a few years ago the question was if an alien spacecraft landed in washington d c what was the proper organization to deal with it the state department alien ambassadors the defense department alien invaders the immigration and naturalization service illegal aliens the department of the interior new non human species etc it was very much a question of our perception of the aliens not of anything intrinsic in their nature the bibliography for the article cited a philosophical paper the name and author of which i sadly forget i believe the author was italian on what constitutes a legal and or moral person i e a being entitled to the rights normally accorded to a person the paper was quite interesting as i recall this is a whole different situation if aliens were able to get here prior to us being able to get there one might conclude that they would be more advanced and therefore more intelegent that we are however if we get somewhere where there is life chances are we wont be able to communicate with them so we will have no clue as to weather they are intelegent or not i think you d have to be very careful here if the answer is yes the human track record on helping those poor underpriveleged cultures does underpriveleged mean not having enough priveleges is terrible the usual result is the destruction or radical reorganization of the culture this may not always be wrong but that s the way to bet that s a good point i hadn t thought of it that way my question however was more along the lines of every year the us spends millions of tax dollars and giving tax breaks to individuals and companies who feed the poor of foreign countries while thousands of our own people sleep on the streets at night would we give to the economicly dissadvantaged on another planet if we hadn t resolved these issues on our own but your comment brings up another good question over the years we have decided that certain cultures need improvements the native americans is a good example prior to our attempt to civilize them the native american culture had very little crime no homelessnes no poverty then the europeans came along and now they have those and more if we encounter life elsewhere do we tell them they have to live in houses farm the land and go to church on sunday have a day bobo
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days in article apr stsci edu hathaway stsci edu writes after all the space walking they are going to re boost the hst s orbit i think right now it s sitting at miles up they would like i don t know the exact orbit numbers as ben says this re boost idea is all news to us here do you know something we don t please supply a source it would be nice for the schedulers of observations to know where the thing is going to be these altitude numbers are also way off my best source has minimum st altitude in the pmdb is kilometers maximum st altitude in the pmdb is kilometers delta st altitude in the pmdb is kilometers pmdb is proposal management data base used to schedule observations i am sure your numbers are far better then mine as i said above i don t have exact numbers in order to perform the re boost of the hst the oms engines will be fired for a long period now the shuttle is a heavy thing the hst isn t light either the amount of oms fuel needed to fly both up is substantial a small booster carried up and used to boost hst on it s own will weigh significantly less then the oms fuel required to boost both hst and shuttle for a given orbital change could you supply some calculations you might check some recent postings that explained that a small booster as suggested does not now exist so comparing the mass of something that doesn t exist to the mass of the oms fuel seems impossible the contamination threat also remains how different would the contamination threat of a small manuevering tug be from that of the shuttle and it s oms engines i know that no small manuevering tug exists but maybe one could soup up a bus does anyone out there have the de clasified specs on hte bus would it be able to provide enough control force to balance the hst and still have the rocket thrust to hurl her into a decent high orbit or the hst could even get placed into some sort of medium orbit the reason they want a high orbit is less antenna pointing and longer drag life longer drag life i can understand but could you explain the antenna pointing sorry that should be intrument pointing whatever it is the problem in the tilt array is a big constraint on hst ops tell me about it although the arrays can be and are moved perfectly well utilizing the second electronics box getting them both working is much desireable so as to reclaim redundancy plus if the second box gets fritzy you could be in shitter ville real fast i don t mean to jump on you helpful suggestions are always welcome and we all know the more ideas the better but i do want the true situation to be described clearly and correctly lest some get confused regards wm hathaway the problem is no one seems to have the exact numbers when the mission was planned originally at spacewalks and astronauts there was enormous concern over the mass margins for the flight they have now planned for eva s an day mission and have reserve eva s and an emergency eva obviously that is coming from somewhere my guess is the oms burn fuel or re boost margin i just figured if goldin wants to really prove out faster cheaper better have some of the whiz kids slap together an expendable space manuevering tug out of a bus and use that for the re boost it has to be better then using the discovery as a tow truck pat
sci.space	revival of san marco was re commercial space news in article a ofa fidonet org wales larrison ofa fidonet org writes commercial space news space technology investor number this might point out some key discriminators in judging the feasibility of a commercial launch site these include is there an identified key customer to provide core usage sufficient to recover setup costs is there a market advantage of using the site can existing infrastructure be used or modified at the site can financing be found at low enough cost to support the investment other commercial launch site ventures including those at woomera poker flat cape york white sands alabama off shore platform hawaii and vandenberg have to also be judged against these criteria in my opinion some of these ventures are flying on hope and speculation and not on sound financial grounds this reminds me my fuzzy brain recalls that somebody was thinking of reviving the san marco launch platform off the coast of kenya where the copernicus satellite was launched around is this true or am i imagining it possibly it s connected with one of the italian programs to revive the scout in a new version that old platform must be getting pretty rusty and there ain t a lot of infrastructure to go with it bill higgins beam jockey we ll see you fermi national accelerator laboratory at white sands in june bitnet higgins fnal bitnet you bring your view graphs internet higgins fnal fnal gov and i ll bring my rocketship span hepnet higgins col pete worden on the dc x
sci.space	two line orbital element set space shuttle the most current orbital elements from the norad two line element sets are carried on the celestial bbs and are updated daily when possible documentation and tracking software are also available on this system as a service to the satellite user community the most current elements for the current shuttle mission are provided below the celestial bbs may be accessed hours day at or bps using data bits stop bit no parity element sets also updated daily shuttle elements and some documentation and software are also available via anonymous ftp from archive afit af mil in the directory pub space sts u a dr ts kelso assistant professor of space operations tkelso afit af mil air force institute of technology
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they picture our universe floating like a log in a river as the log floats down the river it occasionally strikes rocks the bank the bottom other logs when this collission occurs kinetic energy is translated into heat the log degrades gets scraped up and other energy translaions occur the distribution of damage to the log depends on the shape of the log however to a very small virus in a mite on the head of a termite in the center of the log the shock waves from the collissions would appear uniformly random in direction this is my theory for grb they are evidence of our universe interacting with other universes why not makes just as much sense as the grb coming from the oort cloud the log theory of universes can t be ruled out of course i m a layman in the physics world you physicists out there tell me about this bob combs astronautical engineer stanford telecom
sci.space	re long term space voyanges and effect newsgroup tstroup force ssd lmsc lockheed com writes in response to my original post first you need to do the literature search there is a lot of information out there maybe we should just pick a specific area of long term habitation this could be useful especially if we make it available on the net then we can look at methods of analyzing the technologies such a detailed literature search would be of interest to ourselves as space advocates and clearly important to existing space programs in essence we would be dividing the space life science issues into various technical problems which could be solved with various technologies this database of acceptable solutions to various problems could form the basis of detailed discussions involving people from the bionet isunet and any other source unless there is an unbelievable outpouring of interest on this on the net i think we should develop a detailed data base of the literature search first then if we accomplish that we can go on to real analysis the data base itself could be useful for future engineers that s my response ken what do you think tim well i agree i hope others chime in with suggestions on specific technologies which could be applied towards the maintenance of an earth like atmosphere on a long duration spacecraft tim et al i think we should try looking at atmosphere first this seems to be the single most fundamental issue in keeping anyone alive we re all taught that when supporting a patient you look for maintaining airway so in keeping with my trauma training and keeping my emergency medicine professor happy i suggest that we look at the issues surrounding a regenerable atmospheric circuit howz that tim ken
sci.space	re moon image in weather sat image if you brighten up the dark part of cv gif with your viewer you will see two other objects near the upper left part of the moon one is actually between the weather satellite and the moon bill o shaughnessy
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters how energetic could they be prb access digex net pat writes in article rou ginn s gap caltech edu palmer cco caltech edu david m palmer writes prb access digex com pat writes in article apr vax mankato msus edu belgarath vax mankato msus edu writes energetic for close by for the coronal model we found around erg sec and lastly for the cosmological model an l that s what you d call moderately energetic i d say any suggestions about what could put out that much energy in one second jeremy big capacitor real big capacitor it s been suggested specifically lightning strikes between clouds in the interstellar medium how big of a lightning rod would you need for protection and would you need jupiter as a ground plane pat sounds to me like you d want a star for the ground plane phil fraering seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man
sci.space	re internet resources stk vax stockton edu pontificated i am taking a course entitled exploring science using internet for our final project we are to find a compendium of internet resources dealing with a science related topic i chose astronomy anyway i was wondering if anyone out there knew of any interesting resources on internet that provide information on astronomy space nasa or anything like that one of the sci space faq postings deal with this it s archived somewhere perhaps someone can post where it is i don remember james t green jgreen oboe calpoly edu i didn t do it nobody saw me do it you can t prove anything bart simpson
sci.space	re revival of san marco was re commercial space news higgins fnalf fnal gov bill higgins beam jockey writes in article a ofa fidonet org wales larrison ofa fidonet org writes commercial space news space technology investor number other commercial launch site ventures including those at woomera poker flat cape york white sands alabama off shore platform hawaii and vandenberg have to also be judged against these criteria in my opinion some of these ventures are flying on hope and speculation and not on sound financial grounds this reminds me my fuzzy brain recalls that somebody was thinking of reviving the san marco launch platform off the coast of kenya where the copernicus satellite was launched around is this true or am i imagining it possibly it s connected with one of the italian programs to revive the scout in a new version that old platform must be getting pretty rusty and there ain t a lot of infrastructure to go with it my information shows that the last san marco launch was there seem to have been a total of seven before that i seem to recall that someone either asi or the university of rome includes money in their annual budget for maintainance of the platforms there are actually two the italians have been spending money to develop an advanced scout however recent events in the italian space program and the italian government overall make me skeptical that this will get off the ground in the near future josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find a way or make one attributed to hannibal
sci.space	re philosophy quest how boldly in article apr hemlock cray com bobo thejester cray com bob kierski writes over the years we have decided that certain cultures need improvements the native americans is a good example prior to our attempt to civilize them the native american culture had very little crime no homelessnes no poverty this is shall we say an overly broad statement in particular are you referring to the native american culture that existed in or the one that existed in simplify things by assuming we re talking about the eastern us rather than the whole continent given that those were radically different cultures which one are you referring to if we encounter life elsewhere do we tell them they have to live in houses farm the land and go to church on sunday note that the pre columbian native americans east of the mississippi did all of these things well maybe not on sunday but they did have organized religions not to mention cities and governments if you are judging the native americans by the tribal culture that existed in you might want to read an account of the de soto expedition to find out what pre columbian native american culture at least in the more civilized parts of the continent was like svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	transistor tube also ask any electric guitar enthusiast which type of amp they prefer and they ll tell you tube type since tubes have lower distortion and noise than transistors course most of your electric guitar types just say tubes sound better dude of course they then turn up the reverb the gain add in the analog delay line and the fuzz box i d think they wouldn t notice the distortion oh i forgot the phase shifters it is kind of absurd isn t it some players even want more distortion especially the hendrix fans but there are a lot of them out there that can only afford the amp or who like playing music without distortion then there are your hard core hendirx fans that want particular types of distortion i e they make it not their amps also transistors have the advantage in both waste heat and energy use mainly because of the heaters on the cathodes of the tubes ah but how do they compare to mechanical systems i didn t see a thing about waste heat from babbage and haven t seen one of those mechanical tv s in a while so it s anybodie s guess tommy mac tom mcwilliams wk they communicated with the communists tm ibm cl msu edu hm and pacified the pacifists timbuk
sci.space	big thanks i d like to thank everyone and anyone who sent me information to help me with my project i ll send my report to all who requested a copy keith malinowski stk vax stockton edu stockton state college pomona nj
sci.space	vandalizing the sky dale sez mr hathaway s post is right on the money if a little lengthy in short an orbiting billboard would be trash in the same way that a billboard on the earth is trash billboards make a place look trashy that is why there are laws in many places prohibiting their use the light pollution complaints are mainly an attempt to find some tangible reason to be against orbiting billboards because people don t feel morally justified to complain on the grounds that these things would defile the beauty of the sky i don t buy it if the things had no value at all people wouldn t spend money to make them so their lack of value is just your opinion not an actual fact which is neither a philisophical or legal basis for prohibiting them on the other hand i lived in oakbrook il for a while where zoning laws prohibit billboards as you mention above i think it was a fine law despite it s contradictory basis i would guess that the best legal and moral basis for protest would be violation of private property i bought this house out in the boondocks specifically to enjoy my hobby amateur astronomy now this billboard has made that investment worthless so i want the price of the property in damages it wouldn t take too many succesful cases like that to make bill sats prohibitively expensive tommy mac tom mcwilliams wk they communicated with the communists tm ibm cl msu edu hm and pacified the pacifists timbuk
sci.space	hall generators from ussr hi folks last year america bought two hall generators which are used as thrusters for space vehicles from former ussr if i could recall correctly these devices were sent to jpl pasadena labs for testing and evaluation i am just curious to know how these devices work and what what principle is involved what became of them there was also some controversy that the russian actually cheated sold inferior devices and not the one they use in there space vehicles any info will be appreciated ok thank in advance tamoor a zaidi lockheed commercial aircraft center norton afb san bernardino teezee netcom com de cleveland freenet edu
sci.space	human habitale planets habital planets are also dependent on what kind of plant life can be grown and such length of growing season that is if you want something more than vat food argh id ratehr eat an mre for along period of time i know in fairbanks furbanks to some the winter can get to or so f but in the summer can get to and such i know of worse places incans and sherpa and other low pressure atmosphere and such are a limit in human adaptability someone mentioend that incan woman must come to lower elevations to have babies brought to term true i remember a book by pourrnelle i think that delt with a planet was lower density air i wonder what the limit on the other end of atmospheres i am limiting to human needs and stresses and not alien possibilties thou aliens might be more adapted to a totally alien to human environment such as the upper atmosphere of jupiter or almost makes bio engineered life easy michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	combo propulsion system how hard or easy would it be to have a combo mission such as a solar sail on the way out to the outer planets but once in near to orbit to use more normal means seems that everyone talks about using one system and one system only per mission why not have more than one propulsion system or did i miss something or did it die in committee michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	electrical spacecraft via magnetic field of earth okay the earth has a magnetic field unless someone missed something okay if you put a object in the earth magnetic field it produces electricty now the question can you use electricity to power a space low earth orbit vehicle and i fyou can can you use the magnetic field of the earth to power it can the idea of a dragless satellite be used in part to create the electrical field after all the dragless satellite is i might be wrong a suspended between to pilons the the pilons compensate for drag i think i know what i want to say just not sure how to say it a dragless satellite sounds interestingly enough liek a generator michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked sorry for spelling have not brought windows online with my modem and comm program yet almos tthere
sci.space	re rocket types in article rpv o k wraith cs uow edu au u wraith cs uow edu au glen justin balmer says message id rpv o k wraith cs uow edu au if not has anybody heard of the particle propolsion system thanx glen balmer i believe that my former employer hughes aircraft company has a working ion propulsion system for satellites jay brinkmeyer
sci.space	mothership for flybys and cutting costs getting wierd again okay we have figure out that a mission specifically to pluto is to large and to expensive okay what about launching one probe with multiple parts kind of liek the old mirv principle of old cold war days basically what i mean is design a mother ship that has piggy backed probes for different missions namely different planets each probe would be tied in with the mother ship or earth as the case may be this is good when and if we go for mars the mars mission can act as either mother ship or relay point for the probes also the mother ship would be powered if not the mars mission by a normal propulsion but also a solar sail main reason for solar sail race is to see what can be done and autmoated the sail would get the probes to were they needed i know the asteroid meteor clouds and such might get in the way of a sail main reasonf ro mother ship idea is to make it more economoical to send multiple probes mission satellites exploreres to different places and cut costs the probes could do fly bys or we shall see michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days in rs au an access digex net prb access digex net pat writes how different would the contamination threat of a small manuevering tug be from that of the shuttle and it s oms engines the aperture door will be shut during reboost using the shuttle means that there will be someone nearby to pry the door open again if it should stick i just figured if goldin wants to really prove out faster cheaper better have some of the whiz kids slap together an expendable space manuevering tug out of a bus and use that for the re boost it s clear that the whiz kids are not running the show in any case it s not prudent to stick a slapped together explosive device on the end of a billion dollar asset that you d like to see again wiseacres might say that a shuttle is a slapped together explosive device but at least it s had some testing
sci.space	re mothership for flybys and cutting costs in article may aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes getting wierd again or perhaps even weird okay we have figure out that a mission specifically to pluto is to large and to expensive hmmm you might want to read this group more carefully there s been a good amount of discussion of the proposed pluto fast flyby pff mission that is specifically designed to be small and cheap matthew deluca georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism matthew internet matthew phantom gatech edu
sci.space	ftp images astro server i commend everybody to look at the ftp site ftp cicb fr ethernet address in the directory pub images astro there are lots of images all of kinds in astronomy subject especially in gif format and a new directory of some jpl animations for your comfort readme files in all subdirectories give size and description of each image and a days newer images list is in readmenew note you can connect it as anonymous or ftp user then the quota for each is users connected in the same time so if the server responds you connection refused be patient nd note this site is reachable by gopher at roland cicb fr ethernet address in divers serveurs ftp le serveur ftp du cri cicb images astro if you have any comments suggestions problems then you can contact me at e mail rousself univ rennes fr hope you enjoy it
sci.space	re temperature of the dark sky in apr head cfa harvard edu willner head cfa harvard edu steve willner writes cooked if that were the case in any event the energy density of starlight comes out about the same as that of the microwave background and i believe that to be correct yeah what about that is this just a weird coincidence and let s not see all the same hands this time tvf
sci.space	re boeing tsto was words from chairman of boeing description of boeing study of two staged spaceplane using supersonic ramjets deleted in other words boeing is not seriously thinking about reliable less expensive access to orbit they just like to fool around with exotic airplanes
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they you should have been following the discussion of grbs going on in sci astro it s been discussed in some detail with references even
sci.space	re moon image in weather sat image in article billoshc bqyy h h netcom com billosh netcom com william e o shaughnessy says if you brighten up the dark part of cv gif with your viewer you will see two other objects near the upper left part of the moon one is actually between the weather satellite and the moon bill o shaughnessy what are those other objects ufos
sci.space	re boeing tsto was words from chairman of boeing in article schumach convex convex com schumach convex com richard a schumacher writes in other words boeing is not seriously thinking about reliable less expensive access to orbit they just like to fool around with exotic airplanes this presupposes that no supersonic ramjet aircraft spacecraft can be reliable or low cost this is unproven matthew deluca georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism matthew internet matthew phantom gatech edu
sci.space	re single launch space station andy cohen cohen ssdgwy mdc com writes the single launch core station concept a shuttle external tank and solid rocket boosters would be used to launch the station into orbit shuttle main engines would be mounted to the tail of the station module for launch and jettisoned after et separation karl dishaw mcimail com replied why jettison the ssmes why not hold on to them and have a shuttle bring them down to use as spares one performance reason comes to mind if you jettison the ssme s you don t have to drag them with you when you perform your circularization burn s on orbit ssme s are just dead weight since we don t have an ssme h o pressurization mechanism which works in zero g this means that you can t use them for re boost or anything else dead weight has a couple of advantages but more disadvantages throw away ssme s might let us use some of the old ssme s which are not quite man ratable but i doubt we d do that the cost of a launch failure is too high ken jenks nasa jsc gm space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov development of the space station is as inevitable as the rising of the sun wernher von braun
sci.space	kaliningrad was tsniimach enterprise f baube tm writes tsniimach enterprise is described as a ex military establishment they are located near the npo energia facility in kaliningrad outside of moscow if this facility is in kaliningrad this is not near moscow it is in fact the ex east prussian konigsberg now a russian enclave on the baltic coast it is served by ships and rail and the intrepid traveller in europe would find it accessible and might even want to try to arrange a tour hmm there must be two towns with the same name kaliningrad located just north of moscow is correct it is the home of several russian space enterprises including npo energia krunichev fakel and tsniimach the main russian manned spacecraft control facility is also located here kaliningrad is easily reachable by auto from moscow and tours can be arranged call ahead though there are still armed military guards at many of these facilities who don t speak english aren t well paid and are rather bored it s a very popular destination with western space industry types at the moment wales larrison space technology investor maximus wb
sci.space	re astronauts what does weightlessness feel like in article apr is morgan com jlieb is morgan com jerry liebelson writes i want to know what weightlessness actually feels like for example is there a constant sensation of falling ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov replied yes weightlessness does feel like falling it may feel strange at first but the body does adjust the feeling is not too different from that of sky diving i m no astronaut but i ve flown in the kc several times i ll tell you about my first flight at the on set of weightlessness my shoulders lifted and my spine straightened i felt a momentary panic and my hands tried to grab onto something like the strap keeping me firmly against the floor to prevent me from falling i remember conciously over ruling my involuntary motions my ears felt not heard a rush and i could feel fluid moving in my head like when you get up from bed while you have a cold at that point i ceased to concentrate on my physiological response since i had some science to do i was busy keeping my experiment going and keeping track of all the parts during the return of gravity and subsequent g pull out so i didn t really pay attention to physiology at that time after about parabolas i discovered that i was performing one of the tricks i ve discovered to keep myself from getting motion sickness i was keeping my head very still and moving very slowly all except my hands and arms which needed to be in rapid concious motion for my experiment during the pull out to parabola my queasiness finally started to get to me and i had to use one of those air sickness bags i was basically useless for the rest of that flight so i went to the seats in the back of the plane while my partner whom i drafted for just this purpose kept working on the experiment while i was ill he was a vetran vomit comet rider one of those anomalous people who don t get sick on the thing i didn t think of it as a constant sensation of falling so much as like swimming in air it s very close to the sensations i feel when i m scuba diving and i turn my head down and fins up jerry and what is the motion sickness that some astronauts occasionally experience ron it is the body s reaction to a strange environment it appears to be induced partly to physical discomfort and part to mental distress some people are more prone to it than others like some people are more prone to get sick on a roller coaster ride than others the mental part is usually induced by a lack of clear indication of which way is up or down ie the shuttle is normally oriented with its cargo bay pointed towards earth so the earth or ground is above the head of the astronauts about of the astronauts experience some form of motion sickness and nasa has done numerous tests in space to try to see how to keep the number of occurances down i m a volunteer in jsc s space biomedical laboratory where they do among other things some of the tests ron mentions i was in one called the pre flight adaptation trainer which consisted of a chair on a several degree of freedom motion base with moving geometric visual aids the goal was to measure the victim s h h h h h h h h subject s responses and subjective physiological descriptions and see if repeated exposure to this environment could reduce future motion sickness symptoms jerry i don t know of any former or active duty astronauts who personally read this group i know that bruce mccandless s office had been waiting anxiously for the space station redesign option i posted last week but i don t think bruce reads the group himself ken jenks nasa jsc gm space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov the man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything edward john phelps american diplomat lawyer
sci.space	re deployable space dock in article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes why not build a inflatable space dock henry spencer henry zoo toronto edu wrote if you re doing large scale satellite servicing being able to do it in a pressurized hangar makes considerable sense the question is whether anyone is going to be doing large scale satellite servicing in the near future to the point of justifying development of such a thing that s a mighty fine idea but since you asked why not i ll respond putting aside the application of such a space dock there are other factors to consider than just pressurized volume temperature control is difficult in space and your inflatable hangar will have to incorporate thermal insulation maybe a double walled inflatable micrometeoroid protection and radiation protection are also required don t think this will be a clear plastic bubble it s more likely to look like a big white ball made out of the same kind of multi layer fabric that soft torso space suits are made out of today because almost all manned space vessels skylab mir salyut used their pressurization for increased structural rigidity even though they had have metal skins they still kind of qualify as inflatable the inflation process would have to be carefully controlled the space environment reduces ductility in exposed materials due to temperature extremes monotomic oxygen impingement and radiation effects on materials so your fabric may not retain any flexibility for long this may not matter even after inflation pressure changes in the hangar may cause flexing in the fabric which could lead to holes and tears as ductility decreases these are some of the technical difficulties which the llnl proposal for an inflatable space station dealt with to varying degrees of success ken jenks nasa jsc gm space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov good ideas are common what s uncommon are people who ll work hard enough to bring them about ashleigh brilliant
sci.space	teflon re long term human missions hausner qucis queensu ca alejo hausner writes rek siss robert kaye writes just a few contributions from the space program to regular society teflon so your eggs don t stick in the pan sorry to split hairs but i just read in the making of the atomic bomb that teflon was developed during world war a sealant was needed for the tubing in which uranium hexafluoride passed as it was gradually enriched by difussion uf is very corrosive and some very inert yet flexible material was needed for the seals i think you re both right teflon was actually discovered by accident before wwii from what i ve heard they had some chemical i assume it was tetrafluoroethylene in a tank and but the valve got gummed up cutting it open revealed that it had polymerized the material was useful for seals but it had a major problem for say the linings of vessels it wouldn t stick to metal what the space program did was to find a way to get it to stick thus we had no stick frypans on the market in the late s dan tilque dant techbook com
sci.space	llnl inflated space stations was deployable space dock kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov writes in article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes why not build a inflatable space dock discussion of pros and cons deleted these are some of the technical difficulties which the llnl proposal for an inflatable space station dealt with to varying degrees of success could someone give me the references to the llnl proposal i ve been meaning to track it down in conjuntion with something i m working on it s not directly related to space stations but i think many of the principles will carry over josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find a way or make one attributed to hannibal
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days in article c bdgm r zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes in article rrgu lp access digex net prb access digex net pat writes no the thing is designed to be retrievable in a pinch indeed this dictated a rather odd design for the solar arrays since they had to be retractable as well as extendable why not design the solar arrays to be detachable if the shuttle is going to retunr the hst what bother are some arrays they can be detached in an emergency but expensive hardware is not thrown away casually bearing in mind that nobody knew the design was defective if the deployment crew had found some nasty flaw the lid failing to open for example it would have been a bit embarrassing to have to throw the solar arrays away to get the thing back in the payload bay i guess it s kind of an aesthetics argument i can see the solar arrays being expensive and there could be contingencies where you would be throwing away brand new solar cells but it seems so cheap compared toa shuttle mission i wouldn t think they would bother pat
sci.space	re political banner in space well you better not get the shuttle as your launch vehicle and most elv s have too far of a backlog for political messages if during the campaign season the candidates for president had launched one right around now we d be getting a launch for perot and if they had used the shuttle we d be seeing launches for nixon now more then ever pat
sci.space	re teflon re long term human missions in article rtghr j v techbook techbook com dant techbook techbook com dan tilque writes the material was useful for seals but it had a major problem for say the linings of vessels it wouldn t stick to metal what the space program did was to find a way to get it to stick thus we had no stick frypans on the market in the late s ejon matejevic who was a full professor at clarkson university last i heard developed the process for sticking teflon to metals i don t think it was a nasa project cuz i heard he held the patent on it and had made quite a bundle off it anyone from clarkson know the exact story i never wanted to ask him myself pat
sci.space	re space manuevering tug was hst servicing mission in article c bbow ih news cso uiuc edu jbh uxa cso uiuc edu josh hopkins writes prb access digex net pat writes given that what i described for the hst seemed to be the smt and given the mass amrgins on the discovery mission is tight enough that spacewalking has to be carefully constrained no edo pallets no spare suits no extra mmu s has someone actually verified that mass is the predominant constraint on this mission you seem to be assuming it without giving supporting evidence someone from nasa posted that there were very significant mass margins on the hst re boost mission a while back i had asked why not carry the edo pallet up and the answer was the mass margins were tight enough they weren t even carrying extra suits why not do this quick test goldins philosophjy of faster cheaper better build a real fast space tug to handle the re boost of the hst using clean cryo fuels and get it ready before the hst mission pat this would be slower more expensive and worse slower the shuttle mission is scheduled to go up in december that s less than eight months away there is no way you could build new hardware retrain and reschedule the eva s in that time where s wingo when you need him come on knock that s t off you forget that during skylab they did overnight mission planning for the repair eva s also during the intelsat mission they did overnight wetf simulations i somehow think they could train up a new eva in months and as for building hardware anything can be built if you want it bad enough you forget the bus is already built all they d ahve to do is soup it up even test it on a delta mission don t get into this mode of negativism besides at the rate missions slip the discovery won t launch on this mission until march that s almost a year more expensive your proposal still requires the shuttle to do everything it was going to do execpt fire the oms in addition you ve added significant extra cost for a new piece of complex hardware ah but how much more expensive is the second hst servicing mission you forget there is a bum fgs the solar array electronics are getting hinky and there is still months until the servicing mission the time for the space walks are growing rapidly this was orignally planned out as spacewalks now they are at eva s with reserve walks if the smt can avoid a second servicing mission that s million saved if the weight savings means they can sit on orbit for days and handle any contingency problems that s quite a savings according to a gao report on the omv i have before me there are only two currently planned missions that could use such a vehicle hst and axaf since axaf has since been scaled back and hst can rely on the shuttle there doesn t seem to be any need for your vehicle of course there wasn t any need for the saturn v after apollo too as for the problems with the aperture door i am sure they can work out some way to handle that maybe a plug made from frozen ice it ll keep out any contamination yet sublime away after teh boost pat
sci.space	re combo propulsion system in article may aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes how hard or easy would it be to have a combo mission such as a solar sail on the way out to the outer planets but once in near to orbit to use more normal means if you ve got a good propulsion system that s not useful for deceleration sure you can use chemical rockets for that part but even just doing the deceleration chemically is a major headache we re talking seriously high cruising velocities taking the velocity down nearly to zero for a pluto orbit isn t easy with chemical fuels incidentally solar sails are not going to be suitable as the acceleration system for something like this they don t go anywhere quickly i speak as head of mission planning for the canadian solar sail project although that is more or less an honorary title right now because cssp is dormant they can t fly a mission like this unless you start talking about very advanced systems that drop in very close to the sun first svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re electrical spacecraft via magnetic field of earth in article may aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes okay the earth has a magnetic field if you put a object in the earth magnetic field it produces electricty well it s not that simple you re in earth s magnetic field and you don t generate electricity but it can be done now the question can you use electricity to power a space low earth orbit vehicle and i fyou can can you use the magnetic field of the earth to power it the way you power things is with electricity so the answer to the first question is definitely yes if you meant to say propel rather than power the answer is sort of yes you can use interaction with the earth s magnetic field to get electrical power and there are potential applications for this however bear in mind that there is no free lunch the energy isn t coming from nowhere what such systems do is convert some of the energy of your orbital velocity into electrical energy there are cases where this is a useful tradeoff using power obtained in this way for propulsion is useful only in special situations however what you can do is get your power by some other means e g solar arrays and run the interaction with the magnetic field in reverse pumping energy into the orbit rather than taking energy out of it if you want more information trying looking up electrodynamic propulsion tether applications and magsails can the idea of a dragless satellite be used in part to create the electrical field no a dragless satellite does not magically have no drag it burns fuel constantly to fight drag maintaining the exact orbit it would have if there was no drag this is why there are quotes around dragless svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re moon image in weather sat image in article apr unocal com stgprao st unocal com richard ottolini writes in article c b pa my usenet ucs indiana edu turner bigbang astro indiana edu george wm turner writes an image of the moon has been caught in a weather satellite images of the earth near midsummer you can see the relfection of the sun in the ocean cool also during solar eclise you can see the shadow of the sun move across the clouds i think you mean moon sorry i had to
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky in article c bir inc cs cmu edu tm msu edu tom writes on the other hand i lived in oakbrook il for a while where zoning laws prohibit billboards as you mention above i think it was a fine law despite it s contradictory basis and i lived out there too it was a nice sleepy farm valley until the butler family decided to stick up all sorts of really tacky high rise office buildings and ruin my view of the sky i guess i should have sued somebody pat
sci.space	re mothership for flybys and cutting costs in article may aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes design a mother ship that has piggy backed probes for different missions namely different planets not useful unless you ve got some truly wonderful propulsion system for the mother ship that can t be applied to the probes otherwise it s better to simply launch the probes independently the outer planets are scattered widely across a two dimensional solar system and going to one is seldom helpful in going to the next one uranus is not on the way to neptune don t judge interplanetary trajectories in general by what the voyagers did they exploited a lineup that occurs only every couple of centuries and even so voyager took a rather indirect route to neptune also the mother ship would be powered if not the mars mission by a normal propulsion but also a solar sail solar sails are pretty useless in the outer solar system they re also very slow unless you assume quite advanced versions svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days in article rrgu lp access digex net prb access digex net pat writes in article c a at e z zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes no the thing is designed to be retrievable in a pinch indeed this dictated a rather odd design for the solar arrays since they had to be retractable as well as extendable and may thus have indirectly contributed to the array flapping problems why not design the solar arrays to be detachable if the shuttle is going to retunr the hst what bother are some arrays just fit them with a quick release i didn t think the bi stem design was used so much for the retrieval as for the ability to launch in a tight size sts envelope this is my own guess based on similar designs flown on other large sts launched s c gro uars also there might be some consideration given to mass requirements bi stems weight less than conventional s a finally the hst arrays do have the ability to be detached remember they re going to be replaced with new arrays however as an acs guy who s seen his branch management pull their collective hair out over hst i would voice a hearty yea to using conventional arrays over bi stems whenever possible no half hertz flexible modes no thermal snap no problem david w gsfc
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters how energetic could they be in article apr vax mankato msus edu belgarath vax mankato msus edu writes in article rgvjsinnbhq senator bedfellow mit edu jfc athena mit edu john f carr writes how much energy does a burster put out i know energy depends on distance which is unknown an answer of the form x ergs per megaparsec is ok different spheres r pc oort cloud radius r pc at the edge of the galaxy r pc or the edge of the galactic corona and lastly at a r mpc for a radius of pc we found an l around erg sec pretty energetic for close by for the coronal model we found around erg sec and lastly for the cosmological model an l that s what you d call moderately energetic i d say any suggestions about what could put out that much energy in one second jeremy supernovae put out or i forget which but it s only an order of magnitude not in gamma rays though you d hafta get all of that into gammas if they were at mpc but if a decent fraction of the sn output was in gammas it could reasonably be extragalactic but closer than mpc i dunno sn theory so well but i can t think of how to get many gammas out maybe i should look it up big radio galaxies can put out erg s continually that s just in the radio there are a lot of gammas around them too but bursts nah neither of these should be taken as explanations just trying to show that those energies are produced by things we know about greg
sci.space	re mothership for flybys and cutting costs in article c dtd hhi zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes by what the voyagers did they exploited a lineup that occurs only every couple of centuries and even so voyager took a rather indirect route to neptune indirect compared to what did voyager traverse a substantially greater distance than say a hohmann orbit i ve never heard voyager s path described as indirect before dave michelson davem ee ubc ca university of british columbia
sci.space	re electrical spacecraft via magnetic field of earth in article may aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes okay the earth has a magnetic field unless someone missed something okay if you put a object in the earth magnetic field it produces electricty no if you put a conductor in a changing magnetic field it produces a voltage the two ways you can do that with a permanent magnet is to move the magnet or move the conductor the slow shifting of the earth s magnetic field isn t really significant especially when you consider how weak the earth s magnetic field is to begin with now the question can you use electricity to power a space low earth orbit vehicle and i fyou can can you use the magnetic field of the earth to power it well it would require generating an incredibly large magnetic field to repel the earth s magnetic field as a magnet can repel another magnet of course this force only works in one direction and the magnetic field generated has to be unimaginably powerful magnetic repulsion drops off as r and the earth s magnetic field on the surface is already very weak it would require some sort of unknown superconductor and special nonmagnetic construction and seriously hardenned electronics optical computers perhaps and the physiological danger would be significant due to the iron content in our blood among other things in other words forget it can the idea of a dragless satellite be used in part to create the electrical field after all the dragless satellite is i might be wrong a suspended between to pilons the the pilons compensate for drag i think i know what i want to say just not sure how to say it a dragless satellite sounds interestingly enough liek a generator i missed out on the dragless satellite thread but it sounds totally bogus from this little bit isaac kuo isaackuo math berkeley edu o twinkle twinkle little sig keep it less than lines big
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they in article apr tpl k tplrd tpl oz au keithh tplrd tpl oz au keith harwood writes in article rbl einnip gap caltech edu palmer cco caltech edu david m palmer writes prb access digex com pat writes what evidence indicates that gamma ray bursters are very far away given the enormous power i was just wondering what if they are quantum black holes or something like that fairly close by why would they have to be at galactic ranges david gives good explaination of the deductions from the isotropic edged distribution to whit they are either part of the universe or part of the oort cloud i don t know what you mean by edged but surely there are two other possibilities for an isotropic distribution near interstellar up to pc i e within the disc or the galaxy s corona why couldn t they be earth centred with the edge occuring at the edge of the gravisphere i know there isn t any mechanism for them but there isn t a mechanism for the others either ross smith wanganui nz alien acheron amigans gen nz among the gods there is a dispute as to which one of them originally thought of christianity or as they call it the great leg pull apollo has the best claim but a sizeable minority support pluto ex god of the dead on the grounds that he has a really sick sense of humour tom holt
sci.space	re space manuevering tug was hst servicing mission prb access digex net pat writes i wrote prb access digex net pat writes given that what i described for the hst seemed to be the smt has someone actually verified that mass is the predominant constraint on this mission you seem to be assuming it without giving supporting evidence someone from nasa posted that there were very significant mass margins on the hst re boost mission a while back i had asked why not carry the edo pallet up and the answer was the mass margins were tight enough they weren t even carrying extra suits so how much mass is saved by not burning the oms that s the critical question my data shows that the oms engines hold kg of propellant of that a substantial fraction is going to be used for the first oms burn the reentry burn and the reserve so pat tell us how much fuel the altitude change is going to take and how much the edo pallet bus and extra parts are going mass if you can make the numbers work out then i ll be interested after you show us that it can be done then tell us how much the edo pallet bus and extra equipment is going to cost why not do this quick test goldins philosophjy of faster cheaper better build a real fast space tug to handle the re boost of the hst using clean cryo fuels and get it ready before the hst mission pat this would be slower more expensive and worse where s wingo when you need him come on knock that s t off you forget that during skylab they did overnight mission planning for the repair eva s also during thexd intelsat mission they did overnight wetf simulations i somehow think they could train up a new eva in months first while astronauts certainly have done evas with minimal planning that was because they had to they don t like to do that as a general rule second remember why they had to improvise during intelsat they were trying to attach a motor to a piece of hardware that wasn t designed to do that trying to shortcut the training is only going to make a repeat more likely third they don t have eight months they have however much time is left after someone comes up with a plan shows it can work and gets it approved you may think i have a pessimistic attitude i think it s realistic i m not saying that the engineering task is impossible few engineering tasks are what i m saying is that this is neither cost effective nor feasible under nasa management and as for building hardware anything can be built if you want it bad enough you forget the bus is already built all they d ahve to do is soup it up even test it on a delta mission all they have to do is soup it up just what does that mean don t get into this mode of negativism besides at the rate missions slip the discovery won t launch on this mission until march that s almost a year more expensive your proposal still requires the shuttle to do everything it was going to do execpt fire the oms in addition you ve added significant extra cost for a new piece of complex hardware ah but how much more expensive is the second hst servicing mission the second servicing mission is a contingency you have neither shown that it would be necessary without your plan nor that it would be unnecessary with your plan you forget there is a bum fgs the solar array electronics are getting hinky and there is still months until the servicing mission no pat i haven t forgotten if the smt can avoid a second servicing mission that s million saved no pat that s million minus the cost of the new hardware minus the cost of the extra struff you want to bring along minus development and mangement costs minus extra operating costs tanstaafl according to a gao report on the omv i have before me there are only two currently planned missions that could use such a vehicle hst and axaf since axaf has since been scaled back and hst can rely on the shuttle there doesn t seem to be any need for your vehicle of course there wasn t any need for the saturn v after apollo too i m sure that if you reread this you ll see that your argument is falacious as for the problems with the aperture door i am sure they can work out some way to handle that maybe a plug made from frozen ice it ll keep out any contamination yet sublime away after teh boost pat not only is this messy and less reliable than a device that s made to perform this task it also ignores the point there is a desire to have astronauts available so that if the door fails to open something can be done about it unless you can provide a very reliable way of reopening the door you haven t solved the problem josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find a way or make one attributed to hannibal
sci.space	re mothership for flybys and cutting costs in may aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes getting wierd again okay what about launching one probe with multiple parts kind of liek the old mirv principle of old cold war days basically what i mean is design a mother ship that has piggy backed probes for different missions namely different planets each probe would be tied in with the mother ship or earth as the case may be this is good when and if we go for mars the mars mission can act as either mother ship or relay point for the probes i can t see the need for a single big expensive heavy mothership except for voyager style flyby missions a few years ago i did some calculations on a grand tour space probe launched by a saturn v in at the time i felt that the idea of a big mother ship had some merit the voyagers had to be rather small lightweight craft due to the limitations imposed by using weak titan iii centaur launchers the concept i examined and michael s had a lot in common with the british interplanetary society s daedalus project for sending a probe to barnard s star i e a large bus spacecraft carrying several smaller probes to be dispatched when the ship arrives at its destination the saturn v supposedly would have been able to launch a ton payload towards jupiter and beyond the bus could have included far more powerful cameras telescopes scientific equipment and a heavier more powerful power source than the voyagers as there would be no limitations on weight anymore extremely important as the voyagers had to perform most of their measurements within a couple of weeks before and after planetary encounter and usually at a relatively great distance the smaller probes carried aboard might have been based on the real voyagers and an even smaller version like the one scheduled for launch towards pluto in the early st century and would have been released at various points during the mission the advantages are obvious the bus would have carried out the same basic jupiter saturn uranus neptune mission than voyager did but in addition two sub probes could have been relased at saturn examining that planet s south polar regions before moving on to pluto this would have enabled nasa to map both hemispheres of pluto charon by and several other probes could have examined parts of the jupiter saturn uranus neptune systems that weren t examined in great detail by the voyagers due to trajectory related factors a small swarm of camera equipped miniature space probes released a month before encounter would have been too costly for a small voyager type mission but entirely feasible if launched from a heavy well equipped spacecraft and would we have learned a lot more about the outer planets the reason why the grand tour was cancelled was lack of money of course marcu michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	re what planets are habitable c w iyd fs ece cmu edu loss fs ece cmu edu doug loss writes jpg apr holly bnr co uk jpg bnr co uk jonathan p gibbons writes i would appreciate any thoughts on what makes a planet habitable for humans i am making asumptions that life and a similar atmosphere evolve given a range of physical aspects of the planet the question is what physical aspects simply disallow earth like conditions dandridge cole and isaac asimov collaborated on a book titled habitable planets for man i think in it should be available in most good libraries or through inter library loan some more references s h dole habitable planets for man blaisdell publishing company new york i don t know if this can be found any more m j fogg extra solar planetary systems a microcomputer simulation j brit interplanetary soc an estimate of the prevalence of biocompatible and habitable planets j brit interplanetary soc the first paper includes a detailed discussion of the physical conditions for habitability del cotter mt dac brunel ac uk
sci.space	fax email wanted for louis friedman planetary society if available please send to glen moore director science centre wollongong australia fax email gkm cc uow edu au
sci.space	re human habitale planets in article may aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes habital planets are also dependent on what kind of plant life can be grown and such length of growing season that is if you want something more than vat food argh id ratehr eat an mre for along period of time using greenhouses to extend the growing season shouldn t be a problem i m supprised they don t do so in alaska cheaper to import perhaps incans and sherpa and other low pressure atmosphere and such are a limit in human adaptability someone mentioend that incan woman must come to lower elevations to have babies brought to term true no the incas had no problems with this but the spanish did frank crary cu boulder
sci.space	large accelerations revisited why can t an aircraft be designed so that the pilot can always be maintained in a upright position perpendicular to the plane of acceleration with the visual helmets now being used that display some of the flight parameters and with a keyboard and manuvering equipment moving with the pilot a pilot may be able to function at accelerations in excess of g is anyone currently pursuing this area or is there a reason why this is impossible at the present time walter a wohlmuth walter capone ccsm uiuc edu u of illinois urbana champaign
sci.space	re mothership for flybys and cutting costs in a recent article nsmca aurora alaska edu writes okay we have figure out that a mission specifically to pluto is to large and to expensive i d hardly call the current pluto fast flyby proposal too large if the new technology insertion currently taking place succeeds the s c mass will drop to kg or too expensive million fy for two s c especially when compared to other nasa planetary missions basically what i mean is design a mother ship that has piggy backed probes for different missions namely different planets each probe would be tied in with the mother ship or earth as the case may be this is good when and if we go for mars the mars mission can act as either mother ship or relay point for the probes this proposal would work only if your various targets are relaively nearby and the require minimal delta v from the mother ship a mission to the main belt might be one possibility for such a mission i recall a paper being presented at an aiaa deisgn conference in irvine in february where such a proposed spacecraft was designed by some grad students at ut austin i think four mini spacecraft would detatch from the main s c each visiting a seperate asteroid and then returning to the main s c after analysis the main s c would then be targeted for the most interesting object for further study now if i could only find that paper jeff foust days historical analogy is the last refuge senior planetary science caltech of people who can t grasp the current jafoust cco caltech edu situation from red mars by jeff scn jpl nasa gov kim stanley robinson
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky in article c bdio k c news cso uiuc edu jbh uxa cso uiuc edu josh hopkins writes rbunge access digex net robert bunge writes it s vandalism because many people power companies do maliciously waste light maliciously implies evil intent the lighting companies aren t going out of their way to spoil the sky they just don t care if they can sell you or your city or your state an unshielded light that wastes to percent of its light they make more money never mind that your money is wasted it is the responsibility of the customer to choose the most efficient hardware if that s what your city will buy that s what the lighting company will sell write a letter to city hall that s fine idea but it only works if the lighting power company even bothers to supply good light fixtures for instance a power company in virginia recently asked a state commission for permission to sell more lights of various type yet all of the different fixture that they sold and wanted to sell were bad designs one that wasted the light thus you couldn t even buy a good light from them in most places to get a good light you have to either order it special at high cost or call a store in arizona at some point society starts to make rules cars have to pass safety tests companies have to meet pollution standards etc there are two ways to achieve this educate the public so that they demand good lighting or force code down the lighting companies backs history seems to suggest that the latter is more likely to work please note that i m not defending light pollution the orignial focus of this thread was space based light sources agreed so i won t respond again it s important for all you spacers out there to realize that some people will object to various wild ideas that have been presented just like congress it would be best to consult the astronomers lovers of the night sky before you try some pr stunt to boost public knowledge about space josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find a way or make one attributed to hannibal bob bunge rbunge access digex com
sci.space	re u s government and technolgy investment in article apr aio jsc nasa gov kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov writes it s interesting to note that some of our best tools for cost control available in industry today were derived from government projects gantt charts cp m and most of the modern scheduling software comes from dod projects and their contractors the construction industry of course how many government projects after using pert gant c p m s process flow diagrams level software projects actually come in on schedule and under cost i know the gao determined that of all nasa projects miss their budgets due to failing to adequately measure engineering developement costs me i am allin favor of government r d i thought bell labs was one of the best to do research i don t think the government should pour money into any one sector but should engage in projects which naturally push the state of the art things like high tech construction projects apollo was worth it for the doing running hte national labs the ssc is grossly overweight but is a reasonable project at a lower cost unfortunately support for solo investigators is direly neglected maybe what they should do is throw out much of the process and just tell new ph ds you get a time grant of if you produce you can qualify for other grants if you don t you never get in again this way young people get a shot at reserach and older stale scientists don t dominate the process pat
sci.space	re france spied on by the u s you mena in the same way french intelliegence agents steal documents from us corporate executives pat
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days in article c b by c zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes in article apr stsci edu hathaway stsci edu writes also as implied by other posters why do you need to boost the orbit on this mission anyway you don t need to but it s desirable hst like all satellites in low earth orbit is gradually losing altitude due to air drag it was deployed in the highest orbit the shuttle could reach for that reason it needs occasional reboosting or it will eventually reenter it has no propulsion system of its own has any thought been given as to how they are going to boost the hst yet give it a push i can see the push start cartoons now kenneth ng please reply to ken blue njit edu for now all this might be an elaborate simulation running in a little device sitting on someone s table j l picard st tng
sci.space	re report on redesign team in article cohen q mdc com cohen ssdgwy mdc com andy cohen writes the following is what they feed to us most has been posted already but there are a number of items not seen here yet the design teams then presented the three options under study option a modular buildup pete priest presented the a option priest i don t think this will work still the same in space integration problems small modules especially the bus modules the mol would be bigger also budget problems may end up stalling developemnt a small undersized station wont have the science community support option b freedom derived mike griffin presented the status of option program effeciencies may cut costs but the basic problems with freedom remain in space integration too many flights too build not enough science retrurn option c singe launch core station chet vaughn presented option c the single launch core station concept a shuttle external tank and solid essentialy billion to build mir i think had nasa locked onto this design back in with scarring to support a truss for real expandability we d be looking at a flying space station this looks the most realistic to me imho but i dont know if there is enough will power to toss the cdr d existing hardware and then take a rd power cut and do it this way the core launch station has a lot of positive ideas you could stick in more hatches for experimental concept modules like the et derived workshops or inflatable modules pat oct cancellation just my opinion ac sad but true epitaph killed by mis management pat
sci.space	re space manuevering tug was hst servicing mission in article c dvgh aph news cso uiuc edu jbh uxa cso uiuc edu josh hopkins writes prb access digex net pat writes i wrote prb access digex net pat writes my data shows that the oms engines hold kg of propellant of that a substantial fraction is going to be used for the first oms burn the reentry burn and the reserve so pat tell us how much fuel the altitude change is going to take and how much the edo pallet bus and extra parts are going mass if you can make the numbers work out then i ll be interested after you show us that it can be done then tell us how much the edo pallet bus and extra equipment is going to cost i don t know does anyone in nasa land know how much fuel is budgeted for the altitude change henry any figures on the mass full for the edo pallet plus it s dry weight how about for the dry mass of bus it was being de classified as i checked last also i need current orbital parameters of hst projected orbital parameters after re boost discovery s dry weight hst s dry weight i somehow think they could train up a new eva in months first while astronauts certainly have done evas with minimal planning that was because they had to they don t like to do that as a general rule so how long do they need to train a year years somehow i think moths should be adequate second remember why they had to improvise during intelsat they were trying to attach a motor to a piece of hardware that wasn t designed to do that trying to shortcut the training is only going to make a repeat more likely also because they significantly lacked on orbit eva experience the hst is designed for on orbit servicing it should be a lot easier third they don t have eight months they have however much time is left after someone comes up with a plan shows it can work and gets it approved you may think i have a pessimistic attitude i think it s realistic i m not saying that the engineering task is impossible few engineering tasks are what i m saying is that this is neither cost effective nor feasible under nasa management there comes a time in every project to kill the management they can if neccessary re schedule the hst mission december is not a drop dead date unlike say the ldef retrieval mission all they have to do is soup it up just what does that mean i suspect the bus may not have enough basic thrust for the hst re boost it mayu need bigger tanks or bigger thrusters my understanding is the second hst servicing mission is not a contingency my understanding is the mission needs both a new foc and work on the electrical system plus another re boost if the smt can avoid a second servicing mission that s million saved no pat that s million minus the cost of the new hardware minus the cost of the extra struff you want to bring along minus development and mangement costs minus extra operating costs tanstaafl somehow i think the cost of an expendable smt will be less then million and the extra stuff is real cheap nasa has lots of suits mmu s and the edo pallets are re usable oh one double magnum of champagne now there s a couple hundred bucks pat not only is this messy and less reliable than a device that s made to perform this task it also ignores the point there is a desire to have astronauts available so that if the door fails to open something can be done about it unless you can provide a very reliable way of reopening the door you haven t solved the problem that door has cycled x times already once after massive g loading i somehow think they can work ou reliability methods to ensure the door works also please tell me how some sort of sublimated material like co or h o would manage to contaminate the mirror anything that goes to vapor state shouldn t adhere to the mirror somehow the door problem can be worked maybe they can put a one time spring on it what do they do now if the door hangs up that door is part of a intrument safing mechanism if it hangs up tomorrow it ll be months until someone gets up there witha crowbar to fix it pat
sci.space	re combo propulsion system how difficult would it be to do a solar sail mission to say mercury not much has been there and there is a km s delta v to eat off could a solar sail handle say adiscovery bus and drop it into mercury orbit good enough for rockets to put it into some form of polar orbit pat
sci.space	re electrical spacecraft via magnetic field of earth in article c df w bur zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes no a dragless satellite does not magically have no drag it burns fuel constantly to fight drag maintaining the exact orbit it would have if there was no drag this is why there are quotes around dragless i didn t exactly follow the dragless satellitte thread what is the point of it are they used for laser geodesy missions triad seemed to be some sort of navy navigation bird but why be dragless why not just update orbital parameters pat
sci.space	u s government and science and technolgy investment in article apr aio jsc nasa gov kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov writes people who criticize big government and its projects rarely seem to have a consistent view of the role of government in science and technology basically the u s government has gotten into the role of supporting research which private industry finds too expensive or too long term historically this role for the u s gov t was forced upon it because of socialism in other countries in order for u s industries to compete with government subsidized foreign competitors the u s gov t has taken on the role of subisizing big ticket or long lead r d this definitely had nothing to do with the entry of the government into the support of science some of it is relevant in technology there was little involvement of federal funds or except through support of state universities of state funds for scientific research before wwii the us research position had been growing steadily and the funding was mainly from university and private foundation funds there were not that many research universities but they all provided their researchers with low teaching loads laboratories assistants and equipment and funds for travel to scientific meetings not that much but it was provided and a university wishing to get a scholar had to consider research funding as well as salary during wwii the military and the defense departments found that pure scientists could do quite well with their problems even though they were not exactly in the areas of the scientists expertise this is probably because of the research mind approach which is not to try to find a solution but to understand the problem and see if a solution emerges this works in stages and as research scientists were used to discussion about their problems the job got done the military realized the importance of maintaining scientists for the future and started funding pure research after wwii but congress was unwilling to have military funds diverted into this investment into the future supply of scientists and set up other organizations such as nsf to do the job it also set up an elaborate procedure to supposedly keep politics out also the government did a job on private foundations making it more difficult for them to act to support research the worst part of the federal involvement is that in those areas in which the government supports research the university will not provide funding and in fact expects its scholars to bring in net government money suppose as has been the case i have a project which could use the assistance of a graduate student for a few months what do you think happens if i ask for one the answer i will get is get the money from nsf now the money at the university level is a few thousand but at the nsf level it comes to about thousand and is likely to keep a faculty member from getting supported so the government is in effect deciding which projects get supported and how much also the government decided that the wealth should be spread so instead of having a moderate number of universities which were primarily research institutions the idea that more schools should get into the act came into being and instead of evaluating scholars they had to go to evaluating reseach proposals as a researcher i can tell you that any research proposal has to be mainly wishful thinking or as now happens the investigator conceals already done work to release it as the results of the research what i am proposing today i may solve before the funding is granted i may find impossible or i may find that it is too difficult in addition tomorrow i may get unexpected research results possibly i may bet a bright idea which solves yesterday s too difficult problem or a whole new approach to something i had not considered can develop this is the nature of the beast and except for really vague statements if something can be predicted it is not major research but development or routine activity not requiring more than minimal attention of a good researcher i believe that at this time less quality research is being done than would have happened if the government had never gotten into it and the government is trying to divert researchers from thinkers to plodders herman rubin dept of statistics purdue univ west lafayette in phone hrubin snap stat purdue edu internet bitnet purdue pur ee snap stat hrubin uucp
sci.space	re hst servicing mission in article schumach convex convex com schumach convex com richard a schumacher writes in rs au an access digex net prb access digex net pat writes how different would the contamination threat of a small manuevering tug be from that of the shuttle and it s oms engines the aperture door will be shut during reboost using the shuttle means that there will be someone nearby to pry the door open again if it should stick well no during the original deployment mission the hst aperture door was not opened until after the shuttle had landed i presume that during a re boost mission hst would be berthed in the orbiter with the orbiter bay doors shut but still there would be lots of contamination worries i understand that the eva suits are one of the hardest things to keep clean but i still don t know where the idea is coming from that hst needs a re boost we have many problems but our orbit is the least of them there is certainly no plan to change the orbit in the first servicing mission in december ben
sci.space	project help hello i am new to this news group but i need some info i am currently doing a project for a class on the internet i am looking for good sources of information on space and astronomy more notably our own solar system if anyone knows any good sites where i can get information about this kinda stuff please e mail me at stk vax stockton edu thanx steve my newsreader doesn t have a sig yet sorry please address repondes to stk vax stockton edu or adonchey faatcrl faa gov
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days in article rs hlinn he gap caltech edu palmer cco caltech edu david m palmer writes you may want to put hubble back in the payload bay for a reboost and you don t want to clip off the panels each time the artist renderings that i ve seen of the hst reboost still have the arrays fully extended with a cradle holding hst at a degree angle to the shuttle i think the rendering was conceived before the array replacemnet was approved so i m not sure if the current reboost will occur with the arrays deployed or not however it doesn t appear that an array retraction was necessary for reboost for the gamma ray observatory one of the design requirements was that there be no stored energy mecahnisms springs explosive squibs gas shocks etc used for deployment this was partially so that everything could be reeled back in to put it back in the payload bay and partially for safety considerations i ve heard that the wings on a cruise missile would cut you in half if you were standing in their swath when they opened thanks for the input on gro s s a design constraints that would explain the similar design on uars back when the shuttle would be going up every other day with a cost to orbit of per pound everybody designed things for easy servicing heck the mms project used to design missions with servicing in mind the xte spacecraft was originally designed as an on orbit replacement for the instrument module on euve that way you get two instruments for the price of one spacecraft bus the explorer platform a second on orbit replacement was also considered with the fuse telescope david m palmer palmer alumni caltech edu palmer tgrs gsfc nasa gov david w gsfc
sci.space	drag free satellites on sat may gmt henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer said no a dragless satellite does not magically have no drag it burns fuel constantly to fight drag maintaining the exact orbit it would have if there was no drag well almost it turns out that clever orbital mechanics can engineer things so that resonant interactions with the higher order harmonics of the earth s gravitational field can pump energy into a satellite and keep it from experiencing drag effects for periods of months to years my favorite example of this is the soviet russian heavy elint satellites of the cosmos class which are in resonance in particular c has undergone two periods of prolonged gain in altitude the current one having started in june the mean altitude of the satellite is now as high as it has ever been since launch on march looking at the elements for c also shows the limitations of norad s software but that s another story this probably has little relevance to space stations since the degree orbits of the c satellites are at km which is unacceptably far into the inner van allen belt for manned platforms but it s kind of interesting from the point of view of the physics of the situation orbital elements for these satellites are available on request allen thomson saic mclean va is there an opinion here if so it s mine not saic s
sci.space	re drag free satellites in article be e cpva saic com thomsonal cpva saic com writes on sat may gmt henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer said no a dragless satellite does not magically have no drag it burns fuel constantly to fight drag maintaining the exact orbit it would have if there was no drag well almost it turns out that clever orbital mechanics can engineer things so that resonant interactions with the higher order harmonics of the earth s gravitational field can pump energy into a satellite and keep it from experiencing drag effects for periods of months to years a harmonic of the earth s gravitational field what is a harmonic of the earth s gravitational field my favorite example of this is the soviet russian heavy elint satellites of the cosmos class which are in resonance in resonance with what it s not like there s any wavelength or frequency to the earth s gravitational field now there might be some interesting interactions with the moon s tidal effect is that what you re talking about this probably has little relevance to space stations since the degree orbits of the c satellites are at km which is unacceptably far into the inner van allen belt for manned platforms but it s kind of interesting from the point of view of the physics of the situation what are the physics of the situation the only way i can see gravitational effects being useful in adding energy to an object orbiting earth is some sort of interaction with the moon isaac kuo isaackuo math berkeley edu o twinkle twinkle little sig keep it less than lines big
sci.space	re moon image in weather sat image i m afraid i was not able to find the gifs is the list updated weekly perhaps or am i just missing something melissa sherrin perky acs bu edu
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky rbunge access digex net robert bunge writes that s fine idea but it only works if the lighting power company even bothers to supply good light fixtures for instance a power company in virginia recently asked a state commission for permission to sell more lights of various type yet all of the different fixture that they sold and wanted to sell uh why do they have to ask a state commision unless the state s buying such a process will only increace the overhead to the power company of selling different types of light and will decreace the likleihood that they will do so and any efficient lights they might have been planning in the future go down the drain were bad designs one that wasted the light thus you couldn t even buy a good light from them in most places to get a good light you have to either order it special at high cost or call a store in arizona you could order it special if enough people did so it would be low cost last i checked you could use ups to buy stuff in arizona before going there finally i m sure your state has things like small factories and machine shops you could go into business making lights that are cheaper to use thanks to their higher efficiency and the fact that they aren t wasting energy on broadcasting to space and therefore better than the old style at some point society starts to make rules cars have to pass safety tests five year plans have to be enacted or the planning for the economy will fall apart companies have to meet pollution standards etc as if the clean air act really cleaned up the air there are two ways to achieve this educate the public so that they demand good lighting or force code down the lighting companies backs history seems to suggest that the latter is more likely to work my experience seems to suggest that you re trying too hard to educate them with the same methods used in american schools to make any subject whatsoever as relevant and boring as proto ugric instead of selling them on the idea agreed so i won t respond again it s important for all you spacers out there to realize that some people will object to various wild ideas that have been presented just like congress it would be best to consult the astronomers lovers of the night sky before you try some pr stunt to boost public knowledge about space well wake up space is becoming a field of human endeavor instead of just something we can look at from a long long way away there are practical space projects that could conceivably although probably not cause lots of light pollution and have been argued against on those grounds even though they might open up such possibilities that people could vacation on mars if they wanted really dark skies bob bunge rbunge access digex com phil fraering seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man
sci.space	re boeing tsto was words from chairman of boeing in article schumach convex convex com schumach convex com richard a schumacher writes description of boeing study of two staged spaceplane using supersonic ramjets deleted in other words boeing is not seriously thinking about reliable less expensive access to orbit they just like to fool around with exotic airplanes no it means that boeing has something called foresight and vision boeing became the success it is today by working on what you call exotic airplanes
sci.space	will nasa s mars observer image the face on mars all consipiracy theories aside they are watching though will nasa try to image the cydonia region of mars where the face is if they can image it with the high resolution camera it would settle the face question once and for all i mean with a camera that will have a pixel resolution of about feet we d know whether all this stuff is real or imagination come on jpl and nasa folks try to image it and settle this thing gene jackatak raider net gene wright jackatak raider net
sci.space	re over zealous shuttle critics khayash hsc usc edu ken hayashida writes rockwell international in downey california in conjunction with the other shuttle contractors delivered the world s most important and most revolutionary space vehicle ha one cannot argue with the fact that it flies lands and is reusable watch me it flies it lands it gets rebuilt in my opinion these were the only appropriate specifications for this program that s not what they told us back in the s it has been a test program from the start a logical follow to the x program and the later x series lifting bodies it isn t a logical follow on a logical follow on would have been either a russian snowfox type thingey for the lifting bodies or something like mmi s space van or boeing s tsto or the airbreathing tsto the military is allegedly using now that probably cost less to develop than the shuttle does to fly for a year the engineering specs that the guys in the trenches had were to develop a system which was man ratable could land reliably and could be reflown these goals were quite visionary for the s and i would argue that they are challenging even today including for the dc x program keep that attitude and it ll be a couple centuries before we get real access to space unless another country without all that baggage comes along and kicks our ass in the space race i do not recall a flight week specification in the final nasa specs for the space shuttle program if you have such documents i would find them most revealing and interesting as far as i can tell the only people touting a flight per week flight rate were people on capitol hill or selling books to the general public or nasa hq that doesn t give the rest of the program plausible deniability if we deceide that it wasn t worth the money we ve spent which is by now probably a lot more than apollo imho political statements in the halls of the us congress are not admissable as engineering specs because specs should be determined by nasa dod and contractors not by congressmen senators or presidents missions are defined by political leaders but not the engineering specs yes but it gets sold on the basis of the political statements you re saying basically that it met the engineering specs which is questionable imho so it s a success never mind that you couldn t get the funding the shuttle eats with those engineering specs in a thousand years the shuttle is the only reusable space vehicle this automatically qualifies it as an unparalleled engineering success you could argue about its political success but engineering wise it is clearly the most advanced machine ever flown i argue that engineering and technical data for hypersonic flight is valuable in and of itself shuttle should be justified or criticized on the basis of economics you can get hypersonic flight data with an x or a follow on x type vehicle for much less and economics and engineering are interchangable engineering in the absense of economics is basically just physics and in terms of physics the shuttle looks like a failure next to the x then henry wrote hs sorry support that i can arrange for launchers all goes to launchers hs that i have some hope of riding some day at the moment that s hs dc x s hoped for successors i was disappointed by this and other similar statements from those vocal in support of the dc x program your support of dc x is based on hopes my support for the shuttle program is based on record the shuttle program has a bad record i once had hopes for the shuttle program by now i know those hopes were false all i have for dc x and similar and dissimilar experimental vehicles are hopes but at least i know they aren t false hopes yet i did support the shuttle way back when it didn t do nearly what it was supposed to it s time to move on to something that might do the job of orbital delivery better or at all i think that it is also important to note that i do not object to dc x it is visionary i originally posted i like the dc x idea and i am really hopeful that it ll be a stunning success unfortunately dc x ers are not willing to return that support the proven shuttle program explain why you folks criticize shuttle when shuttle is exactly what you guys need in order to learn how to operate dc x on orbit we don t want to learn how to operate on orbit it launches it shoves out the payload it lands it doesn t waste payload hauling up and down edo pallets and the like the only thing to be learned from shuttle is how not to build a launcher finally that bit about the proven shuttle are you hoping you can tell a lie enough times and get someone to believe it i enjoyed your later postings regarding the comparisons between the shuttle and the soyuz project although i may disagree with your method of analysis you probably will disagree with mine i think that the total impact of the shuttle program must be judged on the scientific and technical merit not on timelines and schedules do you agree how much science and technology could have been done is the money spent on shuttle had been spent differently as for now we need to stop thinking of dc x and shuttle as mutually exclusive learn about economics and the current budget realities in the united states please thanks for your time phil fraering number one good faith you convert pgf srl cacs usl edu you not tortured by demons anon mahen missionary
sci.space	re dc x and publicity is there any in article may bmerh bnr ca rivan bnr ca writes its seems a bit scarry to me that such a project which for the first time in years promisses some hope in changing the current trend in massively overpriced boosting capability lacks much publicity the people involved in it have been building hardware rather than writing press releases this is not a high manpower project they don t have spare people sitting around as i understand it there has also been some feeling on the part of some of the project management that publicity was not a good idea a lot of people have been working on changing this view with some success svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re u s government and science and technolgy investment it should be noted that the us benefitted not only from german science and technology after ww but also from british science and technology from the discovery and manufacture of penicillin to jet engines swing wing aircraft the hovercraft etc etc all were shipped lock stick and barel across the atlantic we still are suffering from this sort of thing because of some of the more parochial aspects of us procurement policy meiko a british parallel computer company for example has now moved most of its facilities to the us since that was the only way it could sell stuff over there dave clements oxford university astrophysics department clements uk ac ox vax umberto eco is the real comte de dlc uk ac ox astro saint germain
sci.space	aurora gif request has someone scanned in an artist s rendering of aurora if so is the gif available somewhere please reply via email thanks craig craig keithley if looks could kill they probably will apple computer inc in games without frontiers war without tears keithley apple com peter gabriel third album
sci.space	re life on mars in article may den mmc com seale possum den mmc com eric h seale writes i can t speak for the russian probes but the last i heard the us probe is planned to have air bags on it seriously to cushion the impact hopefully it won t be a bouncer should just hit and go thud the jpl san gabriel aiaa session last week showed the russian lander encased in a single large airbag with ravelable stitches the russian design is pretty firm and hardware is due from international experimenters by the proposed american lander has a bunch of airbags shaped like a bunch of grapes they were dropping it in the desert last month it may have a kg mini rover in it
sci.space	why we like dc x was re shuttle defects bizarre dc x ken your arguments are thoughtful but you are going up against the big boys if you re tackling henry allen sherzer will doubtless chime in on the subject of staggering operational costs too good luck son in article sp beo hsc usc edu khayash hsc usc edu ken hayashida writes shuttle is the only method in the free world of orbiting large life sciences and medical related packages ahem the russians are in the free world now or at least it would be politically correct to contend so i am hopeful that dc x or whatever the follow on is eventually called will perform as you state but right now i must admit that i am more skeptical than ever it will be tough to make dc x succeed and to turn it into an operational orbital vehicle doubtless it will fail to meet some of the promised goals the reason people are so fond of it is that it s the only chance we have now or will have for a long time to come to develop a launch vehicle with radically lower costs there is no shuttle successor in funded development nasp is dwindling away and als nls spacelifter sure as hell aren t gonna knock any zeroes off that per pound cost part of the blame for this must be placed on a shuttle program that consumes many annual billions of the er free world s available space cash as you will no doubt hear from many correspondents in the days to come dc x is an attempt to break out of the vicious cycle by keeping development costs low and flying incremental x plane hardware it s been to my mind incredibly successful already they ve built a complex prototype in under days for under megabucks i would have been extremely skeptical that this could be accomplished in s america never mind flying the thing getting a successor funded or building the dc y i m sure you know well that launch costs are the basic problem for any expansion of astronautics i don t see a realistic prospect for beating down those costs for multi ton payloads anywhere else if the dc flops it ll be business as usual in space the nineties and the double oughts will look just like the seventies and eighties a prospect too depressing to bear pegasus represents another assault on the problem from a different direction it doesn t lower cost per pound but it offers an orbital launch for under ten megabucks it s creating its own market for small payloads i read the magazines and i ve attended the last two iafs there are plenty of engineers with paper ideas for cheaper launch systems some of them as good as or better than ssto there is no sign in today s world that any of these designs will be allowed anywhere near an assembly line you could change my view on dc x if you could prove the following deleting some things i m not going to prove tonight that the shuttle need not go on hiatus to allow development of a man ratable dc x successor strawman is anybody seriously proposing this references please the dc must be developed in the real world funding climate which includes a nasa ferociously committed to continuing shuttle operations as well as the bird in the hand argument your common sense tells you if dc y flies at all it flies alongside the shuttle not instead of it also of course dc y and its operational descendants will be useful for a wide variety of jobs even if they are not man rated most importantly that the dc x will open up leo to more scientific and technical payloads if a dc x successor can fly a kg payload for m or even m rather than the m it now costs more people will be able to afford more payloads for the same money you can fly several satellites instead of one big outfits can fly multi satellite series little outfits will be able to fly spacecraft of their own instead of begging a ride this is just supply and demand you should be able to convince yourself that point will be true assuming dc makes a big difference in costs do you have some reason to think not o zap bill higgins fermi national accelerator laboratory bitnet higgins fnal bitnet internet higgins fnal fnal gov span hepnet higgins
sci.space	urgent email nasa budget what is nasa s annual budget this year will do a few years back wpuld be nice too but i need this item fast so emails off the top of your head very much appreciated faqs vanish here tony ryan astronomy space new international magazine available from astronomy ireland p o box dublin ireland issues one year sub uk pounds us surface add us airmail access visa mastercard accepted give number expiration date name address world s largest astro soc per capita unless you know better up another notch as of end april tel uk n ireland eire cost up to p per min
sci.space	space camp i m replying to someone who asked for information on space camp i have a brochure that has all different schedules what age what level and what program do you want to know the schedule of most of the missions are to days long the address for huntsville is alabama space science exhibit commission u s space and rocket center one tranquility base huntsville al jennifer why are we here what does it mean
sci.space	re life on mars here is a potentially dumb question what prevents the martian landers themselves from polluting the martian environment with earth based critters is the long trip in cold radiation bathed space enough to completely sterilize the landers i could imagine that a few teeny microbes could manage to get all the way there unharmed and then possibly thrive given the right circumstances gord wait smos systems vancouver design centre uunet jericho gord gord jericho uunet uu net or even some days
sci.space	re math was us govt technolgy investment greg mccolm suggested that math is a good example of the inertia silver age of current science is math really a science what new has math told us recently please dont flame me ive taken no math since th grade completed bc calc early and go the hell out is there really new stuff going on im not flaming but honestly durious nope we re just living off the inheritance from our forefathers reading dusty old books and exchanging baroque incantations among a small circle of devotees
sci.space	need help in finding address could someone please help me i am trying to find the address to the tdrs receiving station at white sands missile range i am interested in possible employment and would like to write for information thanks
sci.space	re mcelwaine faq sbooth lonestar utsa edu simon e booth writes in article c vi dx news cso uiuc edu jbh uxa cso uiuc edu josh hopkins writes i m not sure which amazes me more the fact that someone would go to all this trouble to write about mcelwaine or the fact that someone would post something which repeatedly says it shouldn t be posted it s all moot anyway he had is net access privileges revoked last week josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find a way or make one attributed to hannibal mcelwaine got his access revoked finally and they say it couldn t be done if we can rid the net of mcelwaine then anything is possible simon oh don t worry i m sure he ll be back
sci.space	re shuttle defects bizarre dc x in article sp beo hsc usc edu khayash hsc usc edu ken hayashida writes well spenz what can i say you ve attacked my beloved vehicle if i may offer a constructive criticism perhaps you should decide if you love vehicles or the use they are put to i myself think the f is a beautiful aircraft but rest assured i wouldn t even think of flying it in combat today most of us want access to space and judge vehicles on how they perform we see zero defects operation in many area s of life not to this degree calling shuttle flight characteristics bizarre in the same post as touting dc x is interesting why dc x will also have similar zero defects issues am i wrong your wrong the dc approach is very tollerent of failure it also has the advantage of far greater reliability do to its reusable nature shuttle isn t reusable it s salvagable i am thinking of how dc x will deploy a chute or reverse orientation at supersonic speeds the flip over happens at a very low speed not supersonic if the dc x shows the flip over works it will work unless the laws of physics change how much in dc x is redundant that s the real question the final dc will have fully intact abort throughout the entire flight envelop upon re entry for example it can loose about of available thrust and still land safely everything we do in life has zero defects issues at times agree everything can suffer from catastrophic failure but that s not the same thing shuttle simply isn t a fault tolerent design ssto is as a doctor i can not error in my diagnosis and treatment recommendations you don t put your patients in conditions where there is no way out you wouldn t for example give a patient a drug and not monitor them for harmful side effects would you while dc x s r d program makes good sense i am less optimistic about dc x as you and apparently others are you are very much in the minority if the dc series fails to make orbit it will still be a very worthwhile effort it will show us exactly what we do need to do to build ssto but dc x will still have failures it is the nature of aerospace r d again refering to the dc it will provide fully intact abort theroughout the flight envelop shuttle doesn t dc is fault tollerent shuttle isn t it s successors are not slated to be passenger carrying not true build a passenger pallet a fairly easy thing to do and it will carry passengers the impression i had when i visited macdac huntington beach s open house was that the payload space was limited and the man ratable version was decades away i would suggest you talk to the dc x crew themselves their original schedule had an operational dc flying in shuttle is the only method in the free world of orbiting large life sciences and medical related packages as for now it is our only ticket into space and has my support your ignoring the dammage it does mannes space has a reputation for being unreliable and hugely expensive shuttle supporters only make it easy for opponents of manned space to kill it you could change my view on dc x if you could prove the following the only way to prove those things is to build it allen lady astor sir if you were my husband i would poison your coffee w churchill madam if you were my wife i would drink it days to first flight of dcx
sci.space	re gps launch next gps launch is scheduled for june th origin no va astronomy club
sci.space	re dc x and publicity is there any in article may bmerh bnr ca rivan bnr ca writes its seems a bit scarry to me that such a project which for the first time in years promisses some hope in changing the current trend in massively overpriced boosting capability lacks much publicity that may change next month at least i hope it will a couple of hundred journalists have requested press passes for the test flights sustaining that publicity however will be a problem allen lady astor sir if you were my husband i would poison your coffee w churchill madam if you were my wife i would drink it days to first flight of dcx
sci.space	re soyuz and shuttle comparisons in article may ke zv uucp gary ke zv uucp gary coffman writes as a rough guess i would say that in years shuttle has delivered to leo about as much as saturn v did in years we have to be careful to define what is payload and what is propulsion and spacecraft structure often shuttle lifts satellites with upper stages yet we still consider it payload ten saturn flights over about years delivered to leo roughly the same as shuttle flights over years of course saturn lifted more than shuttle but it s cost to orbit in same year dollars was higher they where pretty much the same in terms of cost pound a resurected saturn would cost only per pound if development costs are ignored which is five times cheaper than shuttle allen lady astor sir if you were my husband i would poison your coffee w churchill madam if you were my wife i would drink it days to first flight of dcx
sci.space	re who is henry spencer anyway cam hawk adied oz au the master writes etoyoc leland stanford edu aaron thode writes having tracked sci space for quite a while i have some questions about a mysterious figure called henry spencer if there is anything going on in the space community he seems to know it the questions are somewhat tounge in cheek is sci space a hobby or a job for you do you ever eat or sleep does u of toronto zoology department conduct space research or do you just use an account there just curious aaron well henry spencer is also responsible for parts of cnews and other internet related things quite a guy onya henry c this question comes up frequently enough that there should be a faq about it thierry lach curlie thierry sycom mi org include std disclaimer sufficiently superior technology is indistingushable from magic
sci.space	re life on mars in article lv fpoinnqo exodus eng sun com jmck norge eng sun com john mckernan writes some new information has been discovered recently microscopic fossils have been found in very old rocks the theory is that this life is so old that it must have been destroyed during the periodic intense meteorite bombardments that were a feature of the early solar system under this theory life originated on earth multiple times between multiple meteorite bombardments and therefore the conditions for the creation of life cannot be that unlikely this was all badly reported in the news there is no evidence that signs of life found in old rock predate putative planet sterilizing events rather the argument was that if life arose shortly the last sterilizing event then it must be easily formed the inference was that life originated before and was destroyed but there was no evidence of that however even this argument is flawed it could well be that origin of life requires specific conditions say a certain composition of the atmosphere that do not last for long so perhaps life formed early only because it would have had no other chance to do so not because it was likely that life would originate under those conditions paul f dietz dietz cs rochester edu
sci.space	re looking for planet maps jbh uxa cso uiuc edu josh hopkins writes tel dunix drake edu tim spock larson writes where can i get topographical maps of mars venus other terrestrial bodies i still use the old national geographic maps from the apollo and viking eras the other people to ask would be the us geological survey they have maps of just about everything unfortunately i do not have their address there is an office on the middle left us coast on middlefield road in menlo park ca josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find a way or make one attributed to hannibal dick wilmot editor independent raid report
sci.space	near miss asteroids if by chance you answered my request for neo asteroids in the last two days please send them to me directly i by mistake deleted instead of read all the space request messages thanks and sorry harry g osoff science technology editor access news network jukebox mcimail com
sci.space	re soyuz and shuttle comparisons in article ofa fidonet org david anderman ofa fidonet org writes the most revealing comparison between shuttle and soyuz is cost all other comparisons are apples and oranges maximus wb i like this statement though for my own reasons cost comparisons depend a lot on whether the two options are similar and then it becomes very revealing to consider what their differences are can soyuz launch the long exposure facility course not will the shuttle take my television relay to leo by year s end almost certainly not but the russians are pretty good about making space accessible on a tight schedule comparing s and ss points up that there are two active space launcher and work platform resources with similarities and differences where they are in direct competition we may get to see some market economics come into play tombaker my employer s opinions are not my own i am self employed
sci.space	re another sf irritation relieved doctor who vindicated in article schumach convex convex com schumach convex com richard a schumacher writes this reverse the polarity crap always bugged the hell out of me too until i found an actual live real life example of it working i quote from aviation week and space technology for july page he colonel charles f stirling speaking of the problem of fuel bubble formation in titan aerojet lr engines said engineers at nasa s jet propulsion laboratory had run into the same problem and suggested that the air force look at the effect of aerozene decomposition the fix now flown three times without incident was to reverse the inlet and outlet portions of the hot gas cooler once again life imitates art how about the discussion of the sts tether experiment ran forward it would suck energy from the earth s magnetic field while trivially slowing the shuttle it could also have run backward if they ran electricity through the tether the other way it would have trivially propelled the shuttle faster but an even better example comes to mind there s this electronics guy someone like craig anderton or don lancaster ten years ago he wrote about an invention of his he could take a light detector run current through it at about a hundred times its rating and it would glow he got legal rights to this design of a combination fiber optic emitter receiver this turned out to be the basic unit of att s i think plan to bring brazil s communications system into the st century the article was mostly about his legal wranglings with the company that eventually got him well compensated for his invention tombaker yes that s my real name my employer s opinion s are not my own i am self employed
sci.space	re who is henry spencer anyway someone named hansk asked about pictures well there is an archive of portraits in xfaces format at ftp uu net henry spencer s picture is there somewhere along with several thousand others i don t remember the path though it should be easy to find remember though it seems to use both internet and uucp addresses phil fraering number one good faith you convert pgf srl cacs usl edu you not tortured by demons anon mahen missionary
sci.space	re vandenberg launches in article may mri com paulc mri com paul carroll writes i know about the phone numbers etc to get kennedy canaveral launch information but is there any equivalent way of finding out about launches at vandenberg bear in mind that a lot of the vandenberg launch traffic is military and at least semi secret they aren t interested in publicizing it beforehand svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re who is henry spencer anyway in article may aie nl hansk aie nl hans kinwel writes my god you dare posting i posed these very questions to mr spencer some time ago by email unfortunately i never received any response apologies your mail is probably in the pile that arrived just before i got sick about a month ago a reply will appear eventually now what i really would like to see is an interview with mr spencer a magazine photograph or even better a tv program no i want both so far there have been none unless you count an interview in the amateur computerist about the history of netnews which may be disqualified because tac s budget doesn t run to reproducing photos svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re life on earth or elsewhere in article may julian uwo ca jdnicoll prism ccs uwo ca james davis nicoll writes in article c z ax kcx cs cmu edu tm msu edu tom writes what evidence is there that there is a trend towards greater species diversity over time what i see going on right now is a major extinction event and it isn t clear to me that the diversity k years ago was necessarily greater than million years ago well there are several bursts in species diversity i can think of the cambrian and ordovician explosions resulted in a vast increase in animal diversity likewise after the one two punch of the permian and triassic extinctions the number of marine animals rose steadily to an all time high just prior to the spread of humans biggest exception being the k t bye bye dinos extinction about families also plants arose from green algae and colonized the land in succesive sweeps mosses colonized very wet environments first ferns who had evolved vascular tissues took over more territory when they evolved these were eventually mostly replaced by gymnosperms pines and the like and then mostly displaced by angiosperms flowering plants now the dominant plant group on the planet fungi also radiated greatly with the invasion of the land around the carboniferous up to about families around the triassic up to maybe families starting in the cretaceous rising to about families currently it s unclear to me at least what the max equilibrium number of species the earth can hold and if it has ever hit this in the past it could be warning speculation alert that diversity has never reached a peak because mass extinctions happen often enough to keep the total number down this would depend a great deal on how fragmented specific ecosystems were see cowen s book history of life for a not too technical run down on well like the title sez the history of life or see wilson s diversity of life for a view centered more on current ecology this is imho the best popular biology book of what the hell i ll say it all time james nicoll follow ups to t o chris colby email colby bu bio bu edu my boy he said you are descended from a long line of determined resourceful microscopic tadpoles champions every one kurt vonnegut from galapagos
sci.space	re interesting dc x cost anecdote that s assuming it could get built by them of course it would probably sport cruise missile racks sidewinder missile tubes bomb points extra drop tanks a full ecm suite terrain following radar and stealth materials it might not fly but a technology demonstrator does not require actual flight pat
sci.space	re why we like dc x was re shuttle defects bizarre dc x in article c zyue cgc zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes however i do agree with richard that if you re planning short missions it may not be worth the trouble of providing anything more than a urine disposal rig and a few baggies i don t know about c s but on c s which are regularly used for medium haul personnel transport by the army only have a funnel and a garden hose in the aft the female personnel hate long trips in the box cars pat
sci.space	re who is henry spencer anyway on sat may gmt hansk aie nl hans kinwel said hans as somebody replied on whether the space shuttle is connected to hans usenet no of course the main flow of information would be up hans unless henry spencer would be aboard in which case the main hans flow of information would be down gene miya says that henry will never go aloft in the shuttle the payload bay isn t big enough for his chocolate chip cookies when henry was here at dryden he was looking pretty covetously at the sr s and the f s even though they don t have much cookie space i guess he figured that he could manage for a short flight mary shafer dod kotfr nasa dryden flight research facility edwards ca shafer rigel dfrf nasa gov of course i don t speak for nasa a mig at your six is better than no mig at all unknown us fighter pilot
sci.space	shuttle and pennicillin pennicillin if i have everything correct was a highly valuable myco toxin discovered during ww it proved to have an amazing bacterio cidal effect without human toxicity it s immediate administration showed immediate dramatic results solving problems that previously were fatal although initially enormously expensive to culture within years the price had fallen at least two orders of magnitude and within years was not much more expensive then aspirin penicillin was also usable for an amazingly wide class of infections centoxin is a drug that is not passing fda approval it promised amazing results for toxic shock a rapidly fatal disease it consumed enormous amounts of funding in testing and developement however it works less then in times of administration and costs per administration with no promise of any reduction in manufacturing cost the drug thus costs per useful case and is implicated in a slight increase in mortality for some patients i would not dare to compare the shuttle to pennicillin but to centoxin pat
sci.space	re dc x publicity no do this have the dc x make an unscheduled landing at teh yard line during the halftime show of this years superbowl abc will have more reporters there for that then at any news event pat
sci.space	re dc x publicity even better make up pete conrad in a martian suit and have him get ou t and throw a football to the refs
sci.space	white sands dc x it is interesting to note in the past few days correspondance that some believe that poor old new mexico is not capable of hosting a commercial space launch business for many reasons it can and we here on the front lines see no reason why it should not the spaceport political publicity referred to the other day had its intended effect the state of new mexico did establish the start of the necessary government infrastructure to back a commercial space port the commanding general at wsmr is in full support of dual use for the facilities the wsmr location also has some strategic advantages in the form of necessary infrastructure and controlled air space to support the project just because the folks involved have not done the traditional aerospace equivalent of vapor ware by inviting folks out to kick non existent tires but have been merely doing their job to prepare for launch don t think that nothing has happened from my interactions with the macdac folks i get the impression that they want to set a firm believable launch date based on vehicle readiness and not just some fiction to plug a space on a calendar i believe that all will happen this summer and don t worry the locals here are planning to let everyone know when it does occur stephen horan shoran nmsu edu
sci.space	space marketing boycott in the new york times on sunday may th in the week in review section there was a report of a group called space marketing in atlanta georgia who is planning to put up a one mile wide reflective earth orbiting satelite which will appear as large and as bright as the moon and carry some sort of advertising there was an editorial about this in the times the following tuesday are others as upset about this as i am i feel that a global boycott of anyone involved with such a project would be a good idea perhaps it could be made illegal in various countries around the world do others agree david relevant messages found on the net from webb tsavo hks com peter webb newsgroups sci space subject stopping the sky vandals date may gmt organization hks inc distribution world if you don t want to see space marketing put up orbiting billboards write them or call them and tell them so you might also write your congresspeople space marketing can be reached at attn mike lawson public relations dept space marketing atmbree rd suite rosewell ga peter webb webb hks com hibbitt karlsson sorensen inc voice main st pawtucket ri fax alternatively you could try to find out who their clients will be and tell them how you feel newsgroups sci astro sci space sci misc sci environment talk environment from klaes verga enet dec com larry klaes subject light pollution space ads information keywords light pollution advertisements organization digital equipment corporation date thu may gmt dave crawford crawford noao edu executive director of the international dark sky association ida sent me information on where you can write in regards to the proposed billboards in the sky and asked me to post it karen brown center for the study of commercialism connecticut avenue suite washington d c u s a telephone fax please note that i have no involvement whatsoever with the csc larry klaes klaes verga enet dec com or decwrl verga enet dec com klaes or klaes verga dec decwrl enet dec com or klaes verga enet dec com uunet uu net all the universe or nothing h g wells ejasa editor astronomical society of the atlantic from kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov newsgroups sci space subject re vandalizing the sky date may gmt distribution sci organization nasa jsc gm space shuttle program office x newsreader tin version pl x posted from algol jsc nasa gov f baube tm flb flb optiplan fi wrote that s roughly akin to saying let s let anaconda strip mine the grand canyon so that strip mining can boldly go where no strip mining technology has gone before because after all mining means profits and profits mean technological advance ment and technogical advancement means prosperity and pros perity means happiness and so to hell with the grand canyon space advertisement in low earth orbit is very short term on the order of a few years before the orbit decays higher orbits last longer advertisers will certainly be aware of the environmental aspects of their advertising fred s argument is roughly akin to saying that it s bad to cut down trees so we shouldn t advertise in newspapers think that through fred picture this our space billboard is a large inflatable structure filled with bio degradable foam instead of gas it scoops up space debris as it orbits thus cleaning the space environment and bringing you the pause that refreshes at the same time because of the large drag coefficient it will de orbit safely burning up within a year embedded in the foam structure is a small re entry vehicle which does not burn up during entry it contains the electronics and propulsion system which may be refurbished and re used as well as space science experiments proposed and built by high school students in advertiser sponsored science fairs advertisers buy time on the billboard whose surface is made up of tiny mirrors controlled by the avionics package the avionics can reconfigure the mirrors to reflect different messages at different parts of the globe clever programming allows different languages to every country during orbital night the mirrors turn perpendicular to the surface and small lights are revealed the lights spell out messages for all to see ken jenks nasa jsc gm space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov here men from the planet earth first set foot upon the moon july a d we came in peace for all mankind
sci.space	re space marketing would be wonderfull fox graphics cs nyu edu david fox writes in the new york times on sunday may th in the week in review section there was a report of a group called space marketing in atlanta georgia who is planning to put up a one mile wide reflective earth orbiting satelite which will appear as large and as bright as the moon and carry some sort of advertising there was an editorial about this in the times the following tuesday i realy like this idea it would be wonderfull to see such a big bright satelite on the night sky i will even promise to try to buy whatever product it advertises to help this project please write to space marketing and encourage this project i sadly dosent have enough money to invest in it congresspeople space marketing can be reached at attn mike lawson public relations dept space marketing atmbree rd suite rosewell ga space advertisement in low earth orbit is very short term on the order of a few years before the orbit decays higher orbits last longer advertisers will certainly be aware of the environmental aspects of their advertising fred s argument is roughly akin to saying that it s bad to cut down trees so we shouldn t advertise in newspapers think that through fred picture this our space billboard is a large inflatable structure filled with bio degradable foam instead of gas it scoops up space debris as it orbits thus cleaning the space environment and bringing you the pause that refreshes at the same time because of the large drag coefficient it will de orbit safely burning up within a year embedded in the foam structure is a small re entry vehicle which does not burn up during entry it contains the electronics and propulsion system which may be refurbished and re used as well as space science experiments proposed and built by high school students in advertiser sponsored science fairs advertisers buy time on the billboard whose surface is made up of tiny mirrors controlled by the avionics package the avionics can reconfigure the mirrors to reflect different messages at different parts of the globe clever programming allows different languages to every country during orbital night the mirrors turn perpendicular to the surface and small lights are revealed the lights spell out messages for all to see ken jenks nasa jsc gm space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov here men from the planet earth first set foot upon the moon july a d we came in peace for all mankind magnus redin lysator academic computer society redin lysator liu se mail magnus redin rydsv gen c link ping sweden phone sweden answering machine and
sci.space	re space marketing would be wonderfull in some sense i think that the folks who think the idea is wonderful and the folks who want to boycott anyone who has anything to do with this project are both right that is i think that space advertising is an interesting idea and if someone wants to try it out more power to them however a company may discover that the cost of launch is not the only cost of advertising and a company who gauged that ill will would lose them more revenue than the advertising would gain might decide to bow out of the project i got incensed when i read that carl sagan called this idea an abomination i don t think that word means what he thinks it does children starving in the richest country in the world is an abomination an ad agency is at worst just in poor taste tom courtney
sci.space	re space marketing would be wonderfull in article c u x world std com vis world std com tom r courtney writes i got incensed when i read that carl sagan called this idea an abomination i don t think that word means what he thinks it does children starving in the richest country in the world is an abomination an ad agency is at worst just in poor taste tom courtney i don t think that idea means what you think it does having everyone on earth subject to some ad agency s poor taste is an abomination abomination n loathing odious or degrading habit or act an object of disgust oxford concise dictionary maybe you don t mind having every part of your life saturated with commercials but many of us loathe it i d rather not have the beauty of the night sky always marred by a giant billboard and i ll bet the idea is virtually sacrilegious to an astronomer like sagan reid cooper
sci.space	no re space marketing would be wonderfull wcsbeau superior carleton ca opirg writes i don t think that idea means what you think it does having everyone on earth subject to some ad agency s poor taste is an abomination well we already suffer from street hoardings if you don t watch tv you are free of commercials there but if you want to go from a to b you cannot escape beer ads us loathe it i d rather not have the beauty of the night sky always marred by a giant billboard and i ll bet the idea is virtually sacrilegious to an astronomer like sagan i think the right time to stop this proposal is now if this idea goes through it s the thin end of the wedge soon companies will be doing larger and more permanant billboards in the sky i wouldn t want a world a few decades from now when the sky looks like las vegas that would really make me sad coca cola company will want to paint the moon red and white well if not this moon then a moon of jupiter microscum will want to name a galaxy microscum galaxy where do we draw the line historically mankind is not very good at drawing fine lines i m normally extremely enthusiastic about all forms of resource allocation for space research i think it s the most important investment possible for mankind in the long run but this is not the way to get the money ans ajay shah ajayshah rcf usc edu
sci.space	re u s government and science and technolgy investment in article pgf srl cacs usl edu pgf srl cacs usl edu phil g fraering writes mccolm darwin math usf edu gregory mccolm writes in article c z sw as rice edu conor owlnet rice edu conor frederick prischmann writes in article srfii k suntan eng usf edu mccolm darwin math usf edu gregory mccolm writes huh please state your criteria for selecting the greatest philosopher title p s ever read any nietzsche greatest most likely to be remembered five hundred years hence i must admit that that makes many of my personal favorites not that great i make no comment on nietzche except to remark that he was no immanuel kant interpret that cryptic remark as you please some people have appended that remark that nietzche was no kant with thankfully i haven t read enough of either to comment although everyone tells me i should read nietzche i would have to say that the greatest philosopher title would have to go to plato since the whole enterprise of philosophy was essentially defined by him although he got most of his answers wrong he did definitively identify what the important questions are i think it was descartes who said that all philosophy is just a footnote to plato if i were to choose which philosopher made the most important advances in human knowledge over his lifetime that s simple it is aristotle this is so much the case that many simply refer to him as the philosopher regarding nietzsche he s one of the most entertaining although since his ideas were so fragmented and since his life was cut short it is doubtful that his influence as a philosopher is likely to be very extensive years from now they ll probably still be reading him in years though as for modern philosophers i would have to say that kant was the most influential since he had such a strong influence on almost everyone who came after him and unfortunately they maintained his errors and amplified them over time i would say that the most influential american philosopher would have to be dewey but as to the question of what philosopher will be most highly regarded in years it may very well be ayn rand who in every important respect was american but was born in russia but i guess that remains to be seen brian
sci.space	re life on mars in article tdbunews teradata com swf elsegundoca ncr com writes no if you re fred hoyle he rejects the big bang and proposes an infinitely old universe really so in his model life always starts on a given planet by seeding from outer space there has always been life somewhere didn t fred hoyle abandon the steady state theory bruce watson wats scicom alphacdc com
sci.space	re philosophy quest how boldly in article sti kinnoq gap caltech edu palmer cco caltech edu david m palmer writes gary ke zv uucp gary coffman writes lack of a skeleton means that muscles have to actively resist gravity at all times on land rather than supplying only balancing forces that means that much more energy would be required for the creature to function the bones also supply leverage points for pushing and lateral movement that s why you don t find large active boneless creatures on land hydraulics can make rigid tubes no energy required just for support hydraulics also allow a creature to produce large forces with weak muscles using the principle of a hydraulic jack rather than a lever this is one of those yes but things it s true that a hydraulically pressurized tube can be somewhat more rigid than an unpressurized tube but even at psi levels a hydraulic hose will bend rather easily though it s straight on compressive strength is high and it s torsional resistance increase is practically nil on the other grasping member there s no doubt that hydraulic leverage exists in nature tree roots are an example given time they can shatter concrete as osmotic pressure increases it s interesting to note that on land creatures are either two legged or legged with tiny insects having or legs but never legged though that would be a stable configuration it can be argued that legged creatures kangaroos are legged the specific number of limbs a creature has is an accident of evolution it is hard to make changes in some structures the panda has a thumb plus as many fingers as its ancestors five on each hand but the thumb is a modified wristbone rather than a modified finger and extra fingers are much more common than extra limbs especially fully functional ones kangaroos limbed i don t think so if you take the view that the tail is a limb then monkeys and kangaroos are limbed i think the tail is a different kind of structure grossly enlarged in the case of the kangaroo but primarily still an instrument of balance rather than locomotion i don t know much about panda thumbs so i ll ask is it opposable thermodynamic considerations of surface volume relationships would seem to dictate that active complex creatures stay in a size range similar to what we see about us inch tall intelligent aliens seem unlikely as do those much larger than the elephant why can t a lemur or a brontosaurus be intelligent yes i know that the brontosaurus is a mythical beast produced by putting the head of another dinosaur on an apatosaurus but so far space aliens are also mythical well i won t say flat out that they can t be intelligent but i ll bring a couple of lines of argument to bear to try to show why i don t think it s likely first let me say that when i say intelligent i mean complex behaviors in response to novel situations on a level with or greater than human tool use and tool building ie assuming suitable manipulators are present on the creature to allow it to alter it s enviroment in a planned way it will do so that s certainly not a universal or complete definition of intelligence but it will suffice for a putative technological alien now no one knows exactly what makes a brain capable of thought but it s generally accepted that one of the criteria is a certain level of complexity this is generally determined by the number of neuron cells and their interconnections so a creature the size of a lemur wouldn t have enough neurons to support complex thought this argument is considerably less clear in the case of the dinosaur there s room for a large brain though no indication that one ever developed one reason this may be true is neuronic speed the electrochemical messages that trigger neurons require time to propagate this makes it difficult for a highly complex central brain to coordinate the movements of very large creatures so there s little selection pressure for such brains instead a simpler distributed network evolves this doesn t rule out intelligent dinosaurs but it points in that direction then there are the thermodynamic arguments a tiny creature like the lemur needs to eat frequently because it s internal heat is rapidly lost due to it s high surface to volume ratio i contend that a creature that must spend most of it s time and energy feeding won t have the time to develop and exercise intelligence that argument may be somewhat weak the dinosaur s problem is the reverse it must moderate it s heat production because it s high volume to surface ratio makes it tend to retain waste heat i m assuming that a certain temperature range is optimal for chemical reactivity reasons for productive neuron function so creatures would tend to need to maintain a regulated temperature in a range near that of humans if they are carbon based that tends to rule out cold blooded creatures as potential homes of intelligence some people contend that some of the dinosaurs may have been warm blooded but for a creature the size of a brontosaur it s activity levels would have to be restrained or it would be prone to generate an internal steam explosion from the waste heat whales are similar size but they can reject heat to the ocean a much more efficient sink than air i suspect that for intelligence to manifest itself a certain degree of activity in interacting with the environment is necessary ie monkey curiousity i doubt a large dinosaur would be capable of that much activity gary gary coffman ke zv you make it gatech wa mei ke zv gary destructive testing systems we break it uunet rsiatl ke zv gary shannon way guaranteed emory kd nc ke zv gary lawrenceville ga
sci.space	re why we like dc x was re shuttle defects bizarre dc x in article may mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com fred j mccall writes hmmm not sure what s required for ships probably not much since if a ship goes down it doesn t hurt too many people other than those on the ship and those who invested in it if a plane or spacecraft goes down it can make quite a nasty mess on the ground should it land in an inappropriate place considering the magnitude of loss of life in both the moro castle and titanic disasters i can t believe you can be so blithe there fred besides if a lng tanker breaks up in a close harbor you can kiss off quite a lot of population same thing for any chemical tankers i know the coast guard makes mandatory safety equipment checks on all watercraft they use this as an excuse to make narcotics searches without warrants i suspect that commercial craft need a certificate at least similiar in scope to an air worthiness certificate from the dot pat
sci.space	re excess shuttle criticism was re shuttle defects bizarre dc in article stephens ngis stephens geod emr ca dave stephenson writes had and went on to mention that in aviation if you are found with an adjustable spanner in your tool box you can be fired an adjustable spanner by trying to fit all nuts fits none of them properly and so damages all of them in the demanding environment of the air the adjustable wrench is rightly considered a lethal instrument dave what i recall from air craft maintence torqque and safety wires or cotters were more important then if some bolt face were nicked up if it was in bad shape you replaced it with another aircraft grade bolt i can see adjustable spanners eating up profit but lives pat
sci.space	re sdio kaput not to mention how those those liberal presidents nixon ford reagan bush did nothing to support true commercial space activities pat
sci.space	re near miss asteroids q trry the skywatch project in arizona pat
sci.space	re space marketing would be wonderfull in article c w t fph cunews carleton ca wcsbeau superior carleton ca opirg writes i don t think that idea means what you think it does having everyone on earth subject to some ad agency s poor taste is an abomination abomination n loathing odious or degrading habit or act an object of disgust oxford concise dictionary maybe you don t mind having every part of your life saturated with commercials but many of us loathe it it s a moot point step out of your door go anywhere except possibly your mailbox you will be subject to some ad agency s poor taste i d rather not have the beauty of the night sky always marred by a giant billboard and i ll bet the idea is virtually sacrilegious to an astronomer like sagan while i m sure sagan considers it sacrilegious that wouldn t be because of his doubtfull credibility as an astronomer modern ground based visible light astronomy what these proposed orbiting billboards would upset is already a dying field the opacity and distortions caused by the atmosphere itself have driven most of the field to use radio far infrared or space based telescopes in any case a bright point of light passing through the field doesn t ruin observations if that were the case the thousands of existing satellites would have already done so satelliets might not seem so bright to the eyes but as far as astronomy is concerned they are extremely bright frank crary cu boulder
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days in article t fu str access digex net prb access digex net pat writes in article may stsci edu dempsey stsci edu writes this is a real world too you can t do science like this with out doing politics as well unfortunately good pr keep the coming in do you know what makes rocket ships fly funding makes them fly no bucks no buck rogers ok so you have proven you saw the right stuff however as i said above it takes politics and pr to keep the bucks coming no politics no bucks no buck rogers i think you are missing the point if an agency has gathered some data on something and once tax dollars have been spent the data is now property of the people of the us government the government may charge to recover some of the cost or they may charge to maintain the data but they cannot claim the data is proprietary unless it is classified national security data yes this may be true in the case of the science data coming from the spacecraft and other stuff about the operations however there is still stuff regarding regular operation that belongs to the company and they have ever legal right to keeping it theirs but this does not mean that everything can or should be swept under the umbrella of company proprietory data i live down the road from nih they run studies all the time i can go into their library and photocoppy all the raw data from any study thev e done just bring a roll of quarters you can do the same here you just have to wait a year i m not saying you guys don t have internal rules but they are not supported by us law safeguard internal company data are indeed supported by us law dempsey
sci.space	re no re space marketing would be wonderfull in article t pkc ovf almaak usc edu ajayshah almaak usc edu ajay shah writes if this idea goes through it s the thin end of the wedge soon companies will be doing larger and more permanant billboards in the sky i wouldn t want a world a few decades from now when the sky looks like las vegas that would really make me sad think for a moment about the technology required to do that by the time they could make the earth s sky look like las vegas the people could afford to go backpacking on the moon round trip costs for kg to the moon would be about the same as kg in a low earth advertising orbit very roughly the same cost as a smallish billboard therefore if such ads were to become common place that would have to be a very low price the night sky on a lunar backpacking trip would still be very pristine there s always been a problem of having to get away from civilization before you can really find natural scenery years ago this usually didn t take a trip of over miles today most people would have to go miles or more if we ever get to the point where we have billboards on orbit that essentially means that no place on earth is still wild while that may or may not be a good thing the orbital billboards aren t the problem they are just a symptom of growing densely populated civilization banning such ads will not save your view of the night sky because by the time such ads could become widespread you will probably have trouble finding a place without street lights where you can see the stars coca cola company will want to paint the moon red and white well if not this moon then a moon of jupiter an ad on a moon of jupiter would be rather pointless since you need a telescope to see them however i d love to see them get all the publicity they could from underwritting the coca cola io orbital mapping probe microscum will want to name a galaxy microscum galaxy they already can to some extent the iau allows names derived from sponsors or patrons of scientific research if microscum donates money to a university astronomy program one of the galactic astronomers could easily get a newly discovered galaxy named after them frank crary cu boulder
sci.space	re who is henry spencer anyway in may aie nl hansk aie nl hans kinwel writes in article may leland stanford edu etoyoc leland stanford edu aaron thode writes having tracked sci space for quite a while i have some questions about a mysterious figure called henry spencer if there is anything going on in the space community he seems to know it the questions are somewhat tounge in cheek is sci space a hobby or a job for you do you ever eat or sleep does u of toronto zoology department conduct space research or do you just use an account there just curious my god you dare posting i posed these very questions to mr spencer some time ago by email unfortunately i never received any response well imho and i am just a nobody net user henry spencer is to sci as kibo is to alt and rec but i could be wrong did anybody mention the illuminati kitten conan the librarian a k a kitten a k a barbara ann trumpins alexia lis uiuc edu my life s a soap opera isn t yours summmmmmmmmmmertimmmmmmmmmme and the livin is easy gg
sci.space	re no re space marketing would be wonderfull in article may ucsu colorado edu fcrary ucsu colorado edu frank crary writes in article t pkc ovf almaak usc edu ajayshah almaak usc edu ajay shah writes if this idea goes through it s the thin end of the wedge soon companies will be doing larger and more permanant billboards in the sky i wouldn t want a world a few decades from now when the sky looks like las vegas that would really make me sad think for a moment about the technology required to do that by the time they could make the earth s sky look like las vegas the people could afford to go backpacking on the moon round trip costs for kg to the moon would be about the same as kg in a low earth advertising orbit very roughly the same cost as a smallish billboard therefore if such ads were to become common place that would have to be a very low price this is nonsense its like saying that by the time commercials on television become commonplace every citizen will have their own hour long nationally broadcast tv program there s always been a problem of having to get away from civilization before you can really find natural scenery years ago this usually didn t take a trip of over miles today most people would have to go miles or more if we ever get to the point where we have billboards on orbit that essentially means that no place on earth is still wild while that may or may not be a good thing the orbital billboards aren t the problem they are just a symptom of growing densely populated civilization banning such ads will not save your view of the night sky because by the time such ads could become widespread you will probably have trouble finding a place without street lights where you can see the stars the rest of your post is strange mishmash of its already really bad and it doesn t really matter if it gets worse you should try to figure out what you are really arguing for kneejerk anti environ mentalism david p s a passing sattelite does not have the same effect on visible light astronomy as an object as bright as the full moon
sci.space	re math was us govt technolgy investment mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com mark wilson writes report called it the science of order but that s probably pomposity it is however now somewhat of an experimental science with the exploration of fractals strange attractors and artificial life whether important insights will be gained from these experiments is unknown but it does tend to change the shape of what has mostly been viewed as an abstract deductive field how do you do experiments in mathematics well have a look at a new journal journal of experimental mathematics it has several fields medallists on its editorial board you want to knwo more try klaus peters in boston or david epstein at warwick deep ideas are simple odd groups are even even simples are not
sci.space	re no re space marketing would be wonderfull others said coca cola company will want to paint the moon red and white well if not this moon then a moon of jupiter this reminds me of the old arthur c clarke story about the coca cola ad stashed inside an experiment a host is a host from coast to coast wb foz skybridge scl cwru edu no one will talk to a host that s close linux unless the host that isn t close pob is busy hung or dead
sci.space	re u s government and science and technolgy investment brian quake sylmar ca us writes but as to the question of what philosopher will be most highly regarded in years it may very well be ayn rand who in every important respect was american but was born in russia but i guess that remains to be seen please take this out of sci space ayn rand was not only born in russia but educated there a lot of her philosophy reflects not only a european education but a reaction against certian events in russia while she lived there i ve heard that to the extent there is a division of modern philosophy between the continental and british american schools rand belongs in the former in terms of methodology et al even though she was trying to say things that would belong in the latter school i e she was trapped in the language of kant and hegel even though she was trying to say at times much different things phil fraering number one good faith you convert pgf srl cacs usl edu you not tortured by demons anon mahen missionary
sci.space	re sts inclination from article may vax tcd ie by apryan vax tcd ie primary payload spacehab eureca r inclination degrees i have seen elsewhere that inclination is degrees which is correct hmmm atlantis left eureca in a degree orbit retrieving it is going to be really fun if they fly to degrees torque that canadarm jonathan
sci.space	re soyuz and shuttle comparisons are you guys talking about the soviet shuttle it s not soyuz it s called buran which means snow storm at least that s what they call it on russian tv gavin helf uc berkeley political science berkeley stanford program in soviet studies ghelf violet berkeley edu
sci.space	re math was us govt technolgy investment in article c enf hjm ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com mark wilson writes in may ke zv uucp gary ke zv uucp gary coffman writes it is however now somewhat of an experimental science with the exploration of fractals strange attractors and artificial life whether important insights will be gained from these experiments is unknown but it does tend to change the shape of what has mostly been viewed as an abstract deductive field how do you do experiments in mathematics nowadays usually with a computer no theory predicted the numeric discoveries listed above no one can yet write an algorithm that will predict the precise behavior of any of these at any precise level of their evolution so it remains for experimenters to gather data on their behavior gary gary coffman ke zv you make it gatech wa mei ke zv gary destructive testing systems we break it uunet rsiatl ke zv gary shannon way guaranteed emory kd nc ke zv gary lawrenceville ga
sci.space	re space marketing boycott space ad proposed this is undoubtedly the sickest thing to come down the marketing pipe in years and the best reason for resurrecting the star wars killer satellite system dan
sci.space	re space marketing would be wonderfull in article c u x world std com vis world std com tom r courtney writes in some sense i think that the folks who think the idea is wonderful and the i got incensed when i read that carl sagan called this idea an abomination i don t think that word means what he thinks it does children starving in the richest country in the world is an abomination an ad agency is at worst just in poor taste is it not also an abomination that somebody would spend money on space advertising when those children are starving perhaps some redistribution of wealth would help them dan
sci.space	re space marketing would be wonderfull i can see it now emblazened across the evening sky this space for rent
sci.space	re space marketing would be wonderfull fcrary ucsu colorado edu frank crary writes in article c w t fph cunews carleton ca wcsbeau superior carleton ca opirg writes i don t think that idea means what you think it does having everyone on earth subject to some ad agency s poor taste is an abomination abomination n loathing odious or degrading habit or act an object of disgust oxford concise dictionary maybe you don t mind having every part of your life saturated with commercials but many of us loathe it while i m sure sagan considers it sacrilegious that wouldn t be because of his doubtfull credibility as an astronomer modern ground based visible light astronomy what these proposed orbiting billboards would upset is already a dying field the opacity and distortions caused by the atmosphere itself have driven most of the field to use radio far infrared or space based telescopes in any case a bright point of light passing through the field doesn t ruin observations if that were the case the thousands of existing satellites would have already done so satelliets might not seem so bright to the eyes but as far as astronomy is concerned they are extremely bright frank crary cu boulder tell that to the people who run the meter keck telescope or the astronomers and engineers working on the gemini twin meter telescope project it took years to build keck i and now they are building keck ii according to the december sky telescope this second meter eye will convert the facility into a binocular telescope with double the light gathering power and the ability to resolve the headlights of a car some kilometers away japan s meter subaru telescope will soon join keck on mauna kea all these telescopes will work in the infrared yes but they are visible light telescopes and haven t you heard anything about adaptive optics a lot of research was done with star wars funding and some is now being shared with astronomers this shows great promise soon probably within a few years even the largest telescopes will be able to resolve to their theoretical limit despite the distortions of the atmosphere to say that visible light astronomy is already a dying field is pure hokum to use the logic that things are already bad so it doesn t matter if it gets worse is absurd maybe common sense and logic are the dying fields george krumins pufferfish observatory the universe had its origin gfk uxa cso uiuc edu in two hockeysticks colliding home of the hockeystick memorial telescope
sci.space	re space marketing would be wonderfull stange meena cc uregina ca writes phil your point is well taken it is still a sad idea i m worried by the concern about it though for a number of reasons that have nothing to do with space advertising which for a number of reasons is probably doomed to fail on financial grounds and i ve been reading and and writing this thread since way back when it was only on sci space for starters i don t think the piece of light pollution apparatus would be as bright as the full moon that seems to me to be a bit of propaganda on the part of opponents or wishful thinking on the part of proponents second this charge of ruining the night sky permanently has been levelled against other projects that either don t increace light pollution significantly or increace light pollution only over the target area you may or may not recognize as being solar power sattelites i think it was josh hopkins who actually did the math showing that sps s weren t that bright after all ending some two months of frenzied opposition on the part of dark sky activists and various other types is mainly projects like the orbiting mirror the cis tested recently while slightly more worrisome i d like to point out that any significant scattering of light outside the target area for one of these mirrors would be wasted as far as the project would be concerned and something any project like that would work against anyway and given some of the likely targets i don t think there s going to be much of an outcry from the inhabitants there is too much dark sky in the northern cis during the winter and i doubt you ll find many activists in murmansk demanding the natural sky back if anything he ll probably be inside stripped buck naked in front of the uv lamp making sure he ll get enough vitamin d for the day the mirror experiments aren t something they re doing for crass advertising they think that if they can build one it ll be one of those things people in the affected areas will think they couldn t have lived without before and i doubt anyone s going to really be able to convince them to stop phil fraering number one good faith you convert pgf srl cacs usl edu you not tortured by demons anon mahen missionary
sci.space	re space marketing would be wonderfull dnash uxa cso uiuc edu david nash writes we re talking about an orbiting ad here not some little point of light that puts a streak or two on a photograph it should have been clear that anything used for advertisement is going to be a bit larger than a point source even if this was not clear there s a previous post on this topic that makes it clear message id fox may graphics nyu edu sender notes cmcl nyu edu notes person nntp posting host graphics cs nyu edu organization courant institute of mathematical sciences date sun may gmt lines in the new york times on sunday may th in the week in review section there was a report of a group called space marketing in atlanta georgia who is planning to put up a one mile wide reflective earth orbiting satelite which will appear as large and as bright as the moon and carry some sort of advertising from the description i ve read it s prob only going to be as bright as jupiter anything else is probably hype from the opponents or wishful thinking from the sponsors if we could do something as bright as the full moon that soon that cheap the cis would have done it already phil fraering number one good faith you convert pgf srl cacs usl edu you not tortured by demons anon mahen missionary
sci.space	re space marketing boycott in article c ran qa ucdavis edu ez hamlet ucdavis edu dan herrin writes space ad proposed this is undoubtedly the sickest thing to come down the marketing pipe in years and the best reason for resurrecting the star wars killer satellite system dan why don t you activist guys cut misc invest out of this thread they didn t offer any shares for sale yet tony tony cc bellcore com
sci.space	re space marketing would be wonderfull in article c rgl u ucdavis edu ez hamlet ucdavis edu dan herrin writes deleted is it not also an abomination that somebody would spend money on space advertising when those children are starving perhaps some redistribution of wealth would help them dan not to flame really but thats an abominable viewpoint while were on the subject of abominations if we followed the redistiribution of wealth and by the way ist that what clinto and the democrats are trying to do everyone would starve in short order not only is it impossoble to organize a fair distribution that depends on every wo man s altruism can you say black market under communisim anyone but the current methods of resource production are entirely energy dependant there are not enough sources of cheap capital aside from human capital to allow us to stop looking at space a an excellent source of materials and realestate more directly perhaps you mioght consider the fact that billions are spent by tv companies and their sponsors abc nbc cbs on the superbowl the olympics and even on monday night baseball games perhaps we should boycott those games if dc x and company get finished and there is a market for it those abominable space will probably be much more cost effective for the companies and those starving children more people buy products the company hires more workers end result fewer children die of starvation polar caps or tfv lehigh edu student konsultant making the world safe for computing never before have we owed so little to so many r t folk one must not confuse john dunne s famous quote no man is an island with new york telephone s we re all connected dad
sci.space	re space marketing would be wonderfull in article c tls sg news cso uiuc edu gfk uxa cso uiuc edu george f krumins writes deleted to say that visible light astronomy is already a dying field is pure hokum to use the logic that things are already bad so it doesn t matter if it gets worse is absurd maybe common sense and logic are the dying fields george krumins deleted ok so those scientists can get around the atmosphere with fancy computer algorythims but have you looked ad the hubble results the defects of the mirror are partially correctable with software see those jupiter pictures for results but is the effects are completely reversable why is there going to be a shuttle mission to fix it the way i see it and please astromomers give me a swift net kick in the butt if i m out of the ball park the astromers are making the best of limited possiblities there s only one hubble and the shuttle makes another in the near future a non thought perhaps those self same billboards could have small optical receptors of a limited kind mounted on the reverse sides of the mirror s if that is what is used and then the whole thing becomes a giant array telescope polar caps or tfv lehigh edu student konsultant making the world safe for computing never before have we owed so little to so many r t folk one must not confuse john dunne s famous quote no man is an island with new york telephone s we re all connected dad
sci.space	re space marketing would be wonderfull because of his doubtfull credibility as an astronomer modern ground based visible light astronomy what these proposed orbiting billboards would upset is already a dying field the ahh perhaps that s why we ve astronomers have just built meter ground based scopes and are studying designs for larger ones seriously though you re never going to get a meter scope into orbit as cheaply as you can build one on the ground and with adaptive optics and a good site the difference in quality is narrowed quite a bit anyway also scopes in low orbit like hubble can only observe things continuously for minutes at a time which can be a serious limitation opacity and distortions caused by the atmosphere itself have driven most of the field to use radio far infrared or space based telescopes in any case a bright point of light passing through the field doesn t ruin observations if that were the case the i sure as hell does if the point of light is half a degree in extent and as bright as the moon have you ever noticed how much brighter the night sky is on a moonlit night thousands of existing satellites would have already done so satelliets might not seem so bright to the eyes but as far as astronomy is concerned they are extremely bright existing satellites are points of light but an advertising sign that appeared as a point would be useless so i rather think these will appear larger than a typical satellite also satellite tracks are ruining lots of plates in the current palomar sky survey frank crary cu boulder what deparment are you in anyway philosophy you obviously are not qualified to speak about astronomy lee r lee hawkins lhawkins annie wellesley edu department of astronomy lhawkins lucy wellesley edu whitin observatory wellesley college ph wellesley ma fax
sci.space	re space marketing boycott for some reasons we humans think that it is our place to control everything i doubt that space advertising is any worse than any other kind advertising but it will be a lot harder to escape and is probably the most blatant example yet of our disregard for the fact that we are not in fact creaters of the universe annoying little species aren t we dan gaubatz dgaubat cc swarthmore edu itty bitty programmer guy the geometry forum swarthmore college
sci.space	re space marketing would be wonderfull tfv ns cc lehigh edu theodore f vaida writes in article c tls sg news cso uiuc edu gfk uxa cso uiuc edu george f krumins writes deleted to say that visible light astronomy is already a dying field is pure hokum to use the logic that things are already bad so it doesn t matter if it gets worse is absurd maybe common sense and logic are the dying fields deleted ok so those scientists can get around the atmosphere with fancy computer algorythims but have you looked ad the hubble results the defects of the mirror are partially correctable with software see those jupiter pictures for results but is the effects are completely reversable why is there going to be a shuttle mission to fix it deleted the main effect of the spherical aberration problems with the primary mirror was to drive the computer engineers to develop the image processing software that much faster when they use the same deconvolution software on the images from the fixed hubble be ready for some incredible results there is every reason to believe that the results will exceed the original specs by a fair margin adaptive optics is a combination of hardware and software it works realtime not after the fact as is the case with hubble you might be interested to know this technology has made it to the amateur market in the form of the ao adaptive optics system starting on page of the april sky telescope is a three page review of this new product it lists for the article states the ao adaptive optics system comes in a handy soft plastic case that a three year old could carry around even though this device is really only good for the brightest objects it could cope with image movements of up to millimeter in the telescope s focal plane now just imagine how well this infant technology will do in a few years especially in a dedicated system that has hundreds of thousands of dollars and many man hours invested in its development george krumins pufferfish observatory the universe had its origin gfk uxa cso uiuc edu in two hockeysticks colliding home of the hockeystick memorial telescope
sci.space	re space marketing would be wonderfull on sun may gmt fcrary ucsu colorado edu frank crary said fc modern fc ground based visible light astronomy what these proposed fc orbiting billboards would upset is already a dying field the fc opacity and distortions caused by the atmosphere itself have fc driven most of the field to use radio far infrared or space based fc telescopes here s one radio astronomer quite concerned about radio frequency interference from portable telephones etc e mail lazio astrosun tn cornell edu t joseph lazio phone icbm deg n deg w cornell knows i exist stop rape
sci.space	re space marketing would be wonderfull on mon may gmt fcrary ucsu colorado edu frank crary said fc in article may olaf wellesley edu lhawkins annie wellesley edu r lee hawkins writes because of his doubtfull credibility as an astronomer modern ground based visible light astronomy what these proposed orbiting billboards would upset is already a dying field the ahh perhaps that s why we ve astronomers have just built meter ground based scopes and are studying designs for larger ones fc exactly what fraction of current research is done on the big fc visable light telescopes from what i ve seen or less fc down from amlost years ago that sounds like dying fc to me that doesn t seem like a fair comparison infrared astronomy didn t really get started until something like yrs ago it didn t explode until iras in gamma ray and i think x ray observations didn t really get started until the s i believe the same is true of ultraviolet observations in general and i know that extreme uv short of angstroms observations until the euve launched last year had almost no history except a few observations on skylab in the s twenty five years ago the vast majority of astronomers only had access to optical or radio instruments now with far more instruments available growth in some of these new fields has resulted in optical work representing a smaller fraction of total astronomical work seriously though you re never going to get a meter scope into orbit as cheaply as you can build one on the ground and with adaptive optics and a good site the difference in quality is narrowed quite a bit anyway fc that would be true if adaptive optics worked well in the visable fc but take a look at the papers on the subject they refer to anything fc up to microns as visable i don t know about you but most fc people have trouble seeing beyond microns or so there are fc reasons to think adaptive optics will not work at shorter fc wavelengths without truely radical improvements in technology hmm some of the folks in this department planning on using adaptive optics at the m at palomar for near infrared observations and microns might be surprised to hear this and isn t the ntt already pushing toward arcsecond resolution from a ground based site remember arcseconds was one of the selling points of hst e mail lazio astrosun tn cornell edu t joseph lazio phone icbm deg n deg w cornell knows i exist stop rape
sci.space	re over zealous shuttle critics we ve had the the great western the dunno and the great northern postulated as brunel s masterpiece keep boxing the compass chaps you ll get round to it eventually the great western was a highly successful transatlantic mail ship with hybrid sail and steam propulsion the great eastern which broke the little giant financially and otherwise was a revolutionary leap forward in ship design a thirty thousand ton all steel vessel with primary steam propulsion it was at the time easily the biggest ocean going vessel ever built brunel took advantage of the fact that cargo and or fuel capacity rose with the cube of scale while drag rose with the square so a really big ship could steam thousands of miles without coaling unfortunately there was no real market for such a beast at the time and it was eventually sold off at scrap values as another poster said it then went on to a successful career as a telegraph cable laying ship it was in fact the only ship of its day capable of laying a transatlantic cable in one go with the endurance and capacity to carry the huge reel all the way and the manoeuverabilty to dredge for defective sections see arthur c clarke s book how the world was one i think that s right if that s how the shuttle goes down in history as a technical triumph and a financial disaster for the builder it would not be entirely ignoble but i doubt if history will be so charitable its true the shuttle can do things no other launch system can do but are they worth doing with low cost access to space you could have an affordable space station for doing shuttle like extended manned missions as it is the shuttle is not so much a space truck as a space rv only not so cheap to run peter card joint european torus abingdon oxfordshire ox ea uk tel fax email pjc jet uk or compuserve it wasnt me it was the others they made me do it disclaimer please note that the above is a personal view and should not be construed as an official comment from the jet project
sci.space	re astronauts what does weightlessness feel in article so qm access digex net prb access digex net pat writes adaptation trainer pat dr harm here at msc oops i mean jsc now is that an aptly named person or what when i went thru all the spinning chair tests at jsc the phd in charge was milt reshke but the technician who strapped me in and on occasion inserted the probe needle was named bev bloodworth
sci.space	re space marketing would be wonderfull in article c dv k agora rain com jhart agora rain com jim hart writes if anybody has a strong claim to control of the the night sky it is astronomers check out the common law in the days when wild lands weren t scarce pioneers laid claim to the land by putting it to use eg clearing and growing a crop even trespassers can lay claim to the right of passage if if they ve done it for long enough and the owners have not complained or taken steps to stop them usage begets property rights astronomers have been using the night sky for thousands of years they own it eg light polluters they will lose their common law right of ownership another consequence of their ownership is that they are free to sell it now astronomers need money for their work if light polluting billboards and mirrors go up they will need even more money to buy extra image processing equipment filters space telescopes etc to get around the problem so as long as we can define who astronomers are eg do they include amateur astronomers nature lovers we can set up a system of voluntary consensus to solve this dispute instead invoking bans regulations etc enforced by bribed politicians at the point of a gun why do folks always think of that sordid solution we ought to pass a law to solve problems first instead of as a last resort when other methods have failed stuff deleted this proposal certainly needs work but how about working on these kind of ideas first before writing there ought to be a law letters to our congresscritters let s give noncoercive consensus via the free market a chance to solve this problem jim hart jhart agora rain com would mr hart please explain how one could get every nation on earth and every corporation to agree that astronomers own the night sky without coercion remember that not every nation follows the english common law in most countries for most of history it was probably true that the rulers owned everything not explicitly owned by individuals even in north america where by the principle enunciated the aboriginal inhabitants should have owned everything when new arrivals wanted to use land and resources they just took it over in case mr hart hasn t noticed there is currently a brutal war going on in bosnia about who owns what of course if some friendly super power were to give an international astronomy organization some anti satelite missiles and also agree to defend it if attacked such a proposal might work but it would hardly be non coercive some of us nutty environmentalists think it might make sense first to try to mobilize public opinion against advertising in space and also to use governmental actions like taxing power for example to discourage them this of course would be too coercive for mr hart leonard evens len math nwu edu dept of mathematics northwestern univ evanston il
sci.space	satellite capabilities patriot games hello netters i m new to this board and i thought this might be the best place for my post i have a question regarding satellite technology seen in the movie patriot games in the movies the cia utilizes its orbitting sats to pinpoint a specific terrorist camp in n africa the photos taken by the sats are stunning i know that sats are capable of photographing the license plates of vehicles my question is this the camp in question was taken out by the british sas and while the sas was in action the cia team was watching in the warroom back in langley va the action of the sas was clear and appeared to be relayed via a sat the action was at night and the photography appeared to be an x ray type that is one could see the action within the tents structures of the camp does such techology exist and what is it s nature i e uv ir x ray etc ps who wrote the book patriot games mad vlad
sci.space	re space marketing would be wonderfull in article c dv k agora rain com jhart agora rain com jim hart writes astronomers have been using the night sky for thousands of years they own it if they don t complain now against scenic trespassers eg light polluters they will lose their common law right of ownership is english american canadian etc common law recognized as legally binding under international law after all we re talking about something that by its very nature isn t limited to the territory of one nation doug loss loss husky bloomu edu
sci.space	re space marketing would be wonderfull in article geoffmc l f k netcom com geoffm netcom com geoff miller writes in article c rgl u ucdavis edu ez hamlet ucdavis edu dan herrin writes is it not also an abomination that somebody would spend money on space advertising when those children are starving perhaps some redistribution of wealth would help them this is specious emotionalism commercial enterprises typically don t spend money on starving children or other world problems anyway at least not in excess of whatever minimum amount is required for lip service and pr purposes precisely where would you place the threshold beyond which advertising spending is deemed abominable and why yes just take money from the profitable commercial enterprises and give it to the government to redistribute government is so much more efficient trustworthy and noble than self serving businesses let s nip this redistributionist ignorance in the bud if it were not for commercial enterprises the whole world would be starving roger collins
sci.space	re questions for kc veterans if you think you may have some problems you may want to make it stand up on the side so that the gees won t affect too much the writing on the disk or on the hard disk hmm i would think being on edge would be worse since that might make the tracks unsymmetrical around the spindle due to the sideways force on the head older drives used to tell you to reformat if you were going to stand the drive on edge at g this side force might even be a problem for new drives well it seemed to work for the mac ii installation i was talking about oh yeah there is something i forgot to mention even though you re not suppposed to have water around there is some condenstion d dripping from the roof of the plane make sure that your hardware is covered make also sure that your keyboards are protected from the two phase flow coming out of sick people it happened to us good luck igor carron texas a m university
sci.space	re interesting dc x cost anecdote in article may iti org aws iti org allen w sherzer wrote a staffer just told me an interesting story about dc x an air force costing team just looked at the dc x now called the dc x btw and gave an estimate on how much it would cost the air force to build it it cost sdio m to build and it would cost the usaf million or four and a half times as much i d be willing to bet that a majority of the cost difference could be accounted for by the af s requirement for superfluous documentation or huge requirements and design reviews travel expenses flying personnel around to meetings and over specifying the hardware i doubt that the actual fabrication cost in materials and labor would be very different from sdio s costs of course this is my cynical opinion based on years of watching the government procurement process try to cover up a lack of creativity and innovation with reams of documentation
sci.space	billsats jeffrey l cook sez this object would not interfere with anyone s enjoyment of the night sky it would be invisible at night nor would it have any significant impact on astronomical observations i suspect there must be some kind of underlying agenda coming to the surface when in spite of this people are so quick to shrilly denounce and condemn something that would so vividly demonstrate the strength of western capitalism lazlo nibble sez buying lichtenstein and paving it over with ground glass would also demonstrate the strength of western capitalism but that doesn t make it a particularly attractive idea is that what this country has been reduced to the planetary equivalent of a guy who gets his penis out at parties actually paving ground glass over lichtenstein wouldn t demonstrate the strength of western capitalism since it s strength depends on use of the mind and materials in the fulfillment of needs and desires mind you i m not saying no one would benefit from glassed over land but i don t think anyone would actually pay for it unlike the potential billsats i don t quite follow you on the part about someone exposing their genitals at parties but i got a chuckle from it anyway and i thought i had some strange friends tommy mac tom mcwilliams wk they communicated with the communists tm ibm cl msu edu hm and pacified the pacifists timbuk
sci.space	re space marketing boycott according to the person i talked to the proposed billboard will be too small to resolve with the naked eye so small and visually unimportant anyway he suggested that the visual impact would approximate that of a jumbo jet at k feet km altitude are you sure he didn t tailor his comments according to what he guessed you wanted to hear in other words lie think about it what good would a billboard do for an advertiser if nobody can see it who would advertise telescope companies pretty narrow audience here
sci.space	re space marketing would be wonderfull fcrary ucsu colorado edu frank crary writes while i m sure sagan considers it sacrilegious that wouldn t be because of his doubtfull credibility as an astronomer modern ground based visible light astronomy what these proposed orbiting billboards would upset is already a dying field the opacity and distortions caused by the atmosphere itself have driven most of the field to use radio far infrared or space based telescopes hardly the keck telescope in hawaii has taken its first pictures they re nearly as good as hubble for a tiny fraction of the cost in any case a bright point of light passing through the field doesn t ruin observations if that were the case the thousands of existing satellites would have already done so satelliets might not seem so bright to the eyes but as far as astronomy is concerned they are extremely bright i believe that this orbiting space junk will be far brighter still more like the full moon the moon upsets deep sky observation all over the sky and not just looking at it because of scattered light this is a known problem but of course two weeks out of every four are ok what happens when this billboard circles every minutes what would be a good time then frank crary cu boulder matt kennel mbk inls ucsd edu institute for nonlinear science university of california san diego ad archive for nonlinear dynamics papers programs ftp to lyapunov ucsd edu username anonymous
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creation of the proposed newsgroup should be sent in a form of a e mail message to sria yes ucsu colorado edu with a clear statement in the body of the message like i vote yes for soc religion islam ahmadiyya i vote in favor of s r i a etc similarly all votes against the proposed newsgroup should be sent in a form of a e mail message to sria no ucsu colorado edu with a clear statement in the body of the message like i vote no for soc religion islam ahmadiyya i vote against the creation of s r i a etc you may also include your vote in the subject header of your mail please make sure to include your full name if your mailer does not do that for you one person may only vote once no matter how many e mail accounts s he has only one vote per person shall be considered valid any ambiguous votes like i vote yes for s r i a if shall only be considered comments and would not be counted as votes votes received after gmt on may will not be valid and not counted in the event of multiple votes being received from the same person only the last one will be counted if you change your mind regarding the way you have voted send your new vote again your previous vote shall be discarded posting to usenet will not be counted a vote please do not send any votes to the e mail address of the per son who has posted this cvf those votes shall not be counted either note an acknowledgement shall be sent to everyone who votes two additional cfv s will be posted during the course of the vote number s of yes or no votes will not be disclosed during the the voting period at the end of which all votes shall be made public purpose of the newsgroup the following are the main purposes this group shall achieve i to highlight the common beliefs of all major religions and philosophical traditions as they relate to ahmadiyya muslim community ii to discuss the doctrines origin and teachings the ahmad iyya muslim community a dynamic world wide movement iii to expound islamic teachings and beliefs in the holy quran and islamic traditions from the ahmadiyya islamic perspective iv to emphasize and discuss the similarities between ahmadi muslims and followers of other religions of the world and to explore how understanding and respect for each other s faith can be brought about to eliminate religious intol erance and malice among people of all religious and phil osophical traditions v to look into the origin and teachings of all religions in general and of islam and ahmadiyya muslim movement in par ticular and to use the commonality of origin to foster better understanding among ahmadi muslims and other people and to promote an acceptance of universality of fundamental rights to the freedom of conscience vi to point out current world problems and suggest solutions to these problems as offered by different religions and systems of ethical philosophies vii to investigate the implications of science on religion with particular emphasis on the ahmadi muslim perspective but with openness to dialogue with people of all religions and philosophical traditions with reasoned positions as to the relationship between religion and empirical science logic and scientific ethics viii to exchange important news and views about the ahmadiyya muslim community and of other religions ix to add diversity to the existing religious newsgroups pre sent on usenet in the interest of promoting a forum for decorous dialogue x to inquire why religious persecution is on the rise in the world and suggest solutions to remedy the ever deterior ating situation in the world in general and in the islamic world in particular xi to commemorate the contributions to humanity society and world peace made by the founders and followers of all religions in general and by the international ahmadiyya muslim community in particular type the group will be moderated for orderly and free religious dialo gue the moderation will not prevent disagreement dissent or controversy based on a difference of beliefs or doctrine rather the moderators will seek mainly to discourage gratuitously deroga tory abusive or squalid language and the introduction of issues which are irrelevant based on the provisions of this charter the moderators have been chosen through personal e mail and through a general consensus among the proponents by discussion in news groups the following moderators have been proposed and agreed upon moderator nabeel a rana rana rintintin colorado edu co moderator dr tahir ijaz ijaz ccu umanitoba ca a brief description about ahmadiyya islam the ahmadiyya movement in islam an international organi sation was found in in qadian india the founder of this movement hazrat mirza ghulam ahmad was proclaimed to be the promised reformer of this age as foretold in the scriptures of almost all major religions of the world he claimed to be the fulfillment of the long awaited second comming of jesus christ metaphorically the muslim mahdi and the promised messiah the claims of hazrat ahmad raised storms of hostility and extreme opposition which are often witnessed in the history of divine reformers even today this sect is being persecuted especial ly in some of the muslim regimes the right of ahmadi muslims to openly practice their religion and to define themselves as muslims has been severely restricted in many muslim countries the united nations human rights organizations such as amnesty international and top leaderships of some countries have voiced their concerns against this denial of basic human and civil liberaties to the members of this movement but so far to no avail despite the opposition and persecution the movement cont inues to grow with a current membership of millions from around the world in over countries who come from diverse ethnic and cul tural backgrounds the movement is devoted to world peace and strives towards developing a better understanding of all religions ahmadi muslims have always been opposed to all forms of violence bigotry reli gious intolerance and fundamentalism among its many philanthropic activities the sect has es tablished a network of hundreds of schools hospitals and clinics in many third world countries these institutions are staffed by volunteer professionals and are fully financed by the movement s internal resources the movement stresses the importance of educa tion and leadership its members have included a high number of professionals as well as world class individuals the ahmadiyya mission is to bring about a universal moral reform establish peace and justice and to unite mankind under one universal brotherhood newsgroup creation the discussion for this proposed newsgroup has now offi cially ended voting will be held for three weeks if the news group gets rd majority and more yes create votes than no don t create votes the newsgroup shall be created about the vote taker mr anthony lest has been asked by the proponents of this newsgroup to act as an official impartial vote taker for the proposed newsgroup he has no objection to use his workstation for the purpose of vote taking neither the university of colora do nor anthony lest has anything to do with the proposal of the newsgroup they are just collecting the votes as a neutral third party questions or comments any questions or comments about the proposed newsgroup may be sent to nabeel a rana rana rintintin colorado edu any questions or problems in voting should be sent to anthony lest lest ucsu colorado edu
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity bruce liv ac uk bruce stephens suggests different levels of acceptance of homosexuality regard homosexual orientation as a sin or evil whatever regard homosexual behaviour as a sin but accept orientation though presumably orientation is unfortunate and dislike people who indulge as but love the sinner accept homosexuality altogether i would add our churches should accept homosexual orientation but hold all people to certain standards of sexual behavior promiscuity abuse of power relationships harrassment compulsivity are equally out of place in the lives of homosexual as of heterosexual people of course this would bring up the dread shibboleth of homosexual marriage and we couldn t have that billh
soc.religion.christian	re ethnicity in worship jerryl payne writes to sublimate a culture for the sake of what you perceive as unity seems antithetical to the very message of inclusion that you preach i agree with the exception that i don t preach ignoring our cultures the body as a whole must be unified the question is shall we be a melting pot boiling ourselves down to one legitimate expression or shall we be more like a stew maintaining the textural integrity of the expressed diversity while upholding the unity of thought it released all churches from the use of the latin mass unity to allow them to speak to the people in the common language diversity in revelation we see that in the first century church there was one congregation in each major city so there was one unified church now in each city there were people of different cultures naturally they formed something of a stew with different members having different heritages nevertheless they were one body they met together sometimes as smaller groups in their homes and sometimes in bigger groups in places such as the temple courts now in a particular city then and now you will find that there is a common language associated with that region for instance in rome latin was spoken in the united states today english is spoken so it would make sense that congregations in different cities would speak the common language and not necessarily latin naturally you would expect the lead evangelist to preach in the common language in the first century church there were probably many people in the congregation who could speak a given tongue to translate the message for people of foreign ethnic groups today however you don t see people speaking in tongues to translate sermons even in so called pentacostal churches we do have a modern day equivalent though bi lingual speakers now in the unified church of which i am a member sometimes called the international churches of christ when we all meet together on sundays there are headphones on people who don t speak english from which they hear an ongoing translation of the sermon in their native tongue neat idea huh now we meet in different size groups in a random sort of way on sundays so sometimes there will be a meeting of only haitians or of spanish speaking people for example who will hear an evangelist preach in their native language in addition we meet in small groups a couple of times during the week for bible discussion groups and devotionals so someone who speaks a different language will almost always be with people who also speak his language assuming the congregation is large enough for those meetings as for the people who speak the common language they can keep in touch with their culture if they want but they will also have equally deep friendships among their church relationships with people of many various nationalities has the purpose of the church been thwarted by this action the action of letting catholics worship in a native language instead of latin indeed not see my second paragraph in response to the second clipping of your article however if you mean the action of forming denominations based on a culture then the purpose of the church has been indeed thwarted i ll assume the second possiblility when answering your next clipping rather i believe it has been enhanced for paul exhorts us to become as one of them that we might reach them thus if a person or group of people feel more comfortable among their own shall we not give them a place where they can feel comfortable with their heritage and still l ove god my guess aaron you have met some needs of people certainly by helping them to be proud of their cultural heritages when most denominations didn t yet you have largely isolated yourselves from having quality christian friendships outside your nationality and your denomination we shall certainly give people a place to feel comfortable with their heritage however we will do this in a way that does not destroy church unity but rather encourages friendships among all disciples this is the approach of some of the groups that you cite it sounds like these groups have wonderful intentions but they are going about things in the wrong way and names like the african methodist episcopal church still make me cringe although not as much as before i understand that there was more racism in the past that caused such groups to be formed but now we should try to unite i know that it s hard for many people on this newsgroup to imagine there being only one body of people on earth but it is quite possible and i am working to make it happen however what might be a smaller step towards unity would be taking the word african out of your denomination s name then perhaps someday a long time off you can also remove the methodist episcopal part also and simply be part of the church with regard to inclusivity i note tht your sig emits from mit as you know the tute is religiously and culturally diversified and not everyone who comes there is immediately comfortable with english much less american culture what shall be the conduct of the campus churches then shall there be one church for the sake of unity or shall the organizations like kcf be useful in helping students new to america make the transition in culture language and thought there shall be one church for the sake of unity and it shall be useful in helping students new to america make the transition in culture language and thought we shouldn t make a new denomination to try to solve problems the whole denominational mindset only causes more problems sadly in the ame church we retain african cutlure at the root of our expression but we are by no means exclusive since you live in cambridge i invite you to visit the local assembly there thank you for the invitation that shows me that you indeed have the heart to spread the gospel of jesus as well as take part in your cultural heritage thank you also for responding to my post i know all too well how they can be very time consuming the whole idea of celebrating your culture is paved with good intentions but i still feel that you must restore and preserve unity at the same time my own church the boston church has the acapella singing that you mentioned in your post yet doesn t limit expression of my mexican culture even though i am in the mit campus ministry and not the spanish speaking zone i have made a commitment to god that i will go to the sunday services of my church because i know that my brothers and sisters here are fully devoted in love for god as his disciples i don t believe in tongues as you may have already picked up on because of my understanding of biblical christianity however i am certainly willing to visit your congregation provided that it doesn t interfere with my normal worship since you also live in cambridge i also extend an invitation to you to visit our services as often as you like you can meet the mit students at the student center across from mass ave at am on sundays to leave for worship or simply call me after wednesday night to find out where the service will be held on a particular day my number is but will be in a few weeks from now and for the rest of the summer our service normally last from am to noon but occasionally are later or earlier times per year let us always strive to reach all with the gospel by any means necessary as we move from milk to meat the petty things of the world that temporally separate us will dissolve away and we shall stand with our naked realizations that god has shed his grace on all of us his delightful creation definitely let s also strive to grow in obedience to the lord through being men and women after god s own heart aaron bryce cardenas net net mit undergraduate student u s aaron b cardenas environmental engineering ie snail mass ave aaronc athena mit edu mail cambridge ma good for two weeks speak to one another with psalms hymns and spiritual songs sing and make music in your heart to the lord always giving thanks to god the father for everything in the name of our lord jesus christ ephesians
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christiani in article may athos rutgers edu todd nickel laurentian ca writes the question is how do they interpret these verses we must now establish reasons for not believing this to be true based on the interpretation of these scriptures given by someone who has come to grips with them i see no other way of interpreting them other than homosexuyality being wrong please tell me how these verses can be interpreted in any other way i read them and the surrounding text in christ s love bryan
soc.religion.christian	re mary s assumption in article may athos rutgers edu brian finnerty bfinnert chaph usc edu writes one last point an ex catholic attempted to explain catholic doctrine on the assumption by asserting it is connected to a belief that mary did not die this is not a correct summary of what catholics believe the dogma of the assumption was carefully phrased to avoid saying whether mary did or did not die in fact the consensus among catholic theologians seems to be that mary in fact did die this would make sense christ died and his mother who waited at the foot of the cross would want to share in his death the above article is a good short summary of traditional christian teaching concerning the death of mary also very good is re question about the virgin mary by micheal d walker he tells the story very well i would like to add that in the eastern orthodox church we celebrate the dormition or falling asleep of the theotokos the mother of god the icon for this day shows mary lying on a bed surrounded by the apostles who are weeping christ in his resurrected glory is there holding what seems to be a small child this is in fact mary s soul already with christ in heaven the assumption of mary is one more confirmation for us as christians that christ did indeed conquer death it forshadows the general resurrection on the last day the disciples were not surprised to find mary s body missing from the grave she was the mother of the savior she was the first of all christians she gave birth to the word of god if it were not for her we would not be saved this is why we pray in the orthodox church through the prayers of the theotokos savior save us timothy richardson rich student tc umn edu
soc.religion.christian	re if there were no hell in article may athos rutgers edu mdw cbnewsg cb att com mark d wuest writes in article may athos rutgers edu shellgate llo uu psi com larry l overacker writes q if you knew beyond all doubt that hell did not exist and that unbelievers simply remained dead would you remain a christian interesting question esp since i remember wishing with all my heart that this were true so that i wouldn t have to be a good christian anymore christianity was terribly hard the only reward was heaven and maybe sometimes if i was really good acceptance i wanted a way out if you knew this beyond all doubt then you would be foolish to be a disciple of a man who claimed it did exist the truth is you can not be jesus disciple and disagree with him at the same time not allowing him to be your lord what jesus has done for me since i found him some months ago i do not want to lose period that said i originally interpreted the what if as if christ never mentioned sheol and weeping and gnashing of teeth if christ preached that those who did not follow him died and stayed dead and at that point forever ceased to exist fear based religion is not a faith relationship with the one who made us all i follow christ because it s a great way to live life and i could care less what really happens after i die so is being a buddhist a great way to live life i m not converting though i believe that we can only be complete through christ do you think that buddhists can also be complete jen include stdisclaimer jenk microsoft com msdos testing
soc.religion.christian	re question about virgin mary in article may geneva rutgers edu news cbnewsk att com writes basically the teaching on infallibility holds that the pope is infallible in matters of faith and doctrine the college of bishops is likewise infallible and the laity is as well not exactly correct but nice try the catholic doctrine of infallibility refers to freedom from error in teaching of the universal church in matters of faith or morals it is this teaching which is taken as doctrine randal lee nicholas mandock catechist gt b prism gatech edu
soc.religion.christian	re how i got saved well i was certainly turned off by that first paragraph of oft used platitudes i can t count the times i ve heard those common tactics anymore you may not believe it but that doesn t change the fact that it s true the old analogy about trusting your parents sheesh need i point out how parents can show children that they are right that difference in capability alone crushes that analogy as any facts about christianity i have seen turned out to be beliefs what i seek is fact knowledge if i can get it and evidence for a belief if i can t so far from christians i have received neither before becoming a christian i too had problems when i asked one to explain it to me the actual evidence is not always what you see on a person s outside it should be but is not always a very specific somewhat miraculous example of the truth of god working to help his followers is soemthing that happened to me for nearly years after an accident i had severe complications from a triple fracture in my left leg and surgery pins put in then removed the bone itself was perfectly healed no infectoin that could be detected yet i was in constant pain and it my ankle and foot were always swollen and bluish more complicatios developed in my other leg none of which could be explained by the best specialists and most sophisticated tests in te northern illinois region we went everywhere no one could explain it durin gthat summer june to be exact i gave my life and heart to christ and vowed to relinquish control over my life which i never really had anyway because of what he did for me on the cross and the fact that my whole life was screwed up by me trying to fix it i was facing the possibility of a lifetime in a wheelchair i was confined to one in order to save my legs from any further damage since the cause of my problems were unknown had been in it for about months before that day i found it ore than coincidental that less than weeks after i put my faith where my mouth was one more in the long line of doctors and not even an orthopeodic specialist diagnosed my problems with no difficulty set me on the path to an effective cure and i was walking and running again without the pain that had stopped me from that for years the diagnosis was something he felt the other doctors must have overlooked because it was perfectly obvious from my test results maybe this doesn t hit you as miraculous but to me it really is imagine an active year old being told she may not be able to walk mcuh longer and is now a happy year old who can dance and run knowing that the problem was there all along and was revealed just after she did what she knew was right as the song says our god is an awesome god
soc.religion.christian	re satanic tounges in article may geneva rutgers edu marka hcx ssd csd harris com mark ashley writes citing article may geneva rutgers edu mmh dcs qmw ac uk matthew huntbach i have a simple test i take several people who can speak only one language e g chinese russian german english then i let the gifted one start speaking in toungues the audience should understand the gifted one clearly in their native language however the gifted one can only hear himself speaking in his own language works everytime this thread si starting to get really silly such nonsense do not belong in s r c and it really hurts me to read some of the posts on this issue we chose to believe whetever we want but we are not allowed to define our own christianity we see in parts if you see something that i do not see or vice versa it does not give me the right to play jokes on your belief there is no wonder that your miracle does not work you designet it yourself and even if you were able to collect a group of people like the one you describe i see no reason why your miracle should really happen god is the one who does miracles not humans after all we are all on the same way or at least we are all headed for the same goal following different paths remember that we are going to spend eternity together if i can not stand your view here on earth how can i possibly stand spending eternity together with you tongues is a question of belief not wether you believe in jesus but if you believe that he is able to give you this gift just as any other of the gifts mentioned in the bible but there is no evidence in the bible that people who do not accept these gifts are in any way better than others perhaps i would believe the gifted ones more if they were glorifying god rather than themselves then perhaps we d witness a real miracle maybe some of the people who have received spiritual gifts are more interested in glorifying themselves than glorifying god i don t know but if this is the case it still does not suggest that the gifts are faked in the bible you will find that jesus did not always do miracles he said that i do nothing except what my father tells me perhaps it woulkd be for the best of all if we where all able to live by that example in him bjorn s mail e mail bjorn b larsen bjorn b larsen delab sintef no sintef delab n trondheim tel norway fax
soc.religion.christian	re what was the immaculate conception marida ignacio writes still the angel gabriel s greetings was hail mary full of grace the lord is with you blessed art thou amongst women even mary was confused about this greeting there are various explanations for her reaction to the angel s greeting one is that she grasped what the angel was getting at that she was to be the mother of the messiah and knew what this entailed all the suffering this gave her a moment s pause
soc.religion.christian	re the doctrine of original sin regarding the consequences of the original sin catholics believe that what adam primarily lost by his sin for himself and the human race was sanctifying grace this is basically a share in the divine life take a rock and make it able to talk what god does to a human being through sanctifying grace is similar it makes such a one able to live on a plane that is above the powers of any possible creature this is the everlasting life that the new testament speaks of what christ did when he came was to restore this life of sanctifying grace to the human race he instituted the sacraments as the means by which this life is given to people and its increase fostered the absence of sanctifying grace at death means automatic exclusion from heaven the nature of heaven is such that it s impossible for a human being to have any part in it without the gift of sanctifying grace to use my example it would be like taking that rock and attempting to hold a conversation with it rocks cannot talk neither can human beings live in heaven without sanctifying grace this all obviously applies equally well to infants or adults since both have souls infants must be baptized therefore or they cannot enter into heaven they too need this form of life in them or they cannot enter into heaven turning it around infant baptism is good supporting evidence for the catholic belief in sanctifying grace unless baptism causes some change in an infant s soul there is no particular reason to insist on the practice yet infant baptism was probably practiced by the apostles themselves and was certainly part of the church shortly thereafter there is evidence for infant baptism in the new testament itself cor acts also acts it is known for sure that at least one disciple of the apostle john was baptized as an infant st polycarp because of a remark he makes in the acts of his martyrdom st justin martyr mentions men and women baptized as infants there is direct evidence in st irenaeus s against heresies and in tertullian s on baptism all these so far mentioned are in the first years after our lord s death after that there starts to be tons of evidence for the practice
soc.religion.christian	the ancient canon of the roman rite the following is a juxtaposition of part of an ancient text known as de sacramentis usually attributed to st ambrose of milan and the canon of the traditional catholic mass of the roman rite the conclusion from this comparison is that the central part of the traditional roman canon was already fairly well in place by sometime in the late th century taken from the mass of the western rites by the right reverend dom fernand cabrol abbot of farnborough without permission excerpted from chapter vi the mass at rome from the fifth to the seventh centuries the paragraph at the end is from the book not me sorry about the long lines joe buehler text of de sacramentis roman canon roman canon about ad ad english translation te igitur omitted here memento domine communicantes hanc igitur oblationem fac nobis inquit sacerdos quam oblationem tu deus in do thou o god deign to hanc oblationem ascriptam omnibus quaesumus bless what we offer and ratam rationabilem benedictam adscriptam make it approved acceptabilem quod figura ratam rationabilem effective right and est corporis et sanguinis acceptabilemque facere wholly pleasing in every jesu christi digneris ut nobis corpus et way that it may become sanguis fiat dilectissimi for our good the body filii tui domini nostri jesu and blood of thy dearly christi beloved son jesus christ our lord qui pridie quam pateretur qui pridie quam pateretur who the day before he in sanctis manibus suis accepit panem in sanctas ac suffered took bread into accepit panem respexit in venerabiles manus suas et his holy and venerable caelum ad te sancte pater elevatis oculis in ccelum hands and having raised omnipotens aeterne deus ad te deum patrem suum his eyes to heaven unto gratias agens benedixit omnipotentem tibi gratias thee o god his almighty fregit fractum quae agens benedixit fregit father giving thanks to apostolis suis et discipulis deditque discipulis suis thee he blessed it broke suis tradidit dicens dicens accipite et it and gave it to his accipite et edite ex hoc manducate ex hoc omnes hoc disciples saying take ye omnes hoc est enim corpus est enim corpus meum all and eat of this meum quod pro multis for this is my body confringetur similiter etiam calicem simili modo postquam in like manner when the postquam caenatum est caenatum est accipiens et supper was done taking pridie quam pateretur hunc praeclarum calicem in also this goodly chalice accepit respexit in sanctas ac venerabiles manus into his holy and caelum ad te sancte pater suas item tibi gratias venerable hands again omnipotens aeterne deus agens benedixit deditque giving thanks to thee gratias agens benedixit discipulis suis dicens he blessed it and gave it apostolis suis et discipulis accipite et bibite ex eo to his disciples saying suis tradidit dicens omnes hic est enim calix take ye all and drink of accipite et bibite ex hoc sanguinis mei novi et this for this is the omnes hic est enim sanguis aeterni testamenti chalice of my blood of the meus mysterium fidei qui pro new and eternal covenant vobis et pro multis the mystery of faith effundetur in remissionem which shall be shed for peccatorum you and for many unto the forgiveness of sins haec quotiescumque feceritis as often as you shall do in mei memoriam facietis these things in memory of me shall you do them ergo memores gloriosissimae unde et memores domine nos mindful therefore o ejus passionis et ab inferis servi tui sed et plebs tua lord not only of the resurrectionis in caelum sancta ejusdem christi blessed passion of the ascensionis offerimus tibi filii tui domini nostri tam same christ thy son our hanc immaculatam hostiam beatae passionis necnon et lord but also of his hunc panem sanctum et ab inferis resurrectionis resurrection from the calicem vitae aeternae sed et in caelos gloriosae dead and finally his ascensionis offerimus glorious ascension into praeclarae majestati tuae de heaven we thy ministers tuis donis ac datis hostiam as also thy holy people puram hostiam sanctam offer unto thy supreme hostiam immaculatam panem majesty of the gifts sanctum vitae aeternae et bestowed upon us the calicem salutis perpetuae pure victim the holy victim the all perfect victim the holy bread of life eternal and the chalice of unending salvation et petimus et precamur ut supra quae propitio ac and this do thou deign to hanc oblationem suscipias in sereno vultu respicere regard with gracious and sublimi altari tuo per manus digneris et accepta habere kindly attention and hold angelorum tuorum sicut sicuti accepta habere acceptable as thou didst suscipere dignatus es munera dignatus es munera pueri tui deign to accept the pueri tui justi abel et justi abel et sacrificium offerings of abel thy sacrificium patriarchae patriarchae nostri abrahae just servant and the nostri abrahae et quod tibi et quod tibi obtulit summus sacrifice of abraham our obtulit summus sacerdos sacerdos tuus melchisedech patriarch and that which melchisedech sanctum sacrificium thy chief priest immaculatam hostiam melchisedech offered unto thee a holy sacrifice and a spotless victim supplices te rogamus most humbly we implore omnipotens deus jube haec thee almighty god bid perferri per manus sancti these offerings to be angeli tui in sublime altare brought by the hands of tuum in conspectu divinae thy holy angel unto thy majestatis tuae etc altar above before the face of thy divine majesty etc there is no doubt that we have here two editions of the same text and as that of de sacramentis is localised in upper italy and dated about the year it is the most ancient witness we possess as to the principal parts of the roman canon which only appear in the sacramentaries some time after the seventh century the question as to whether the roman canon is not older even than that of de sacramentis is discussed by liturgiologists mgr batiffol is of this opinion but we on the contrary think that the former bears traces of closer composition of a more carefully guarded orthodoxy and that consequently it is a text corrected from de sacramentis we shall see in studying the list of names in the memento of the living and that of the dead that mgr batiffol argues with good reason that he can date these fragments from the pontificate of symmachus we thus have the state of the roman mass or at least of the chief parts of the canon at the beginning of the fourth century
soc.religion.christian	re why do people become atheists in article may athos rutgers edu fil sapienza med umich edu fil sapienza writes i am interested in finding out why people become atheists after having believed in some god god in conversing with them on other groups i ve often sensed anger or hostility though i don t mean to imply that all atheists are angry or hostile it does seem to be one motivation for giving up faith thus some atheism might result from broken ness i d like to field this one if i may although i am a believer in and follower of christ my experiences with religion haven t been all that positive in fact there was one point in my life when for about three days i simply couldn t believe in the existence of god anyway when i look back upon the troubles i ve had they seem to fall into two categories impulses to unbelief that resulted from logical contradictions and impulses to unbelief that resulted from frustration with god the first category doesn t occur to me much anymore as i have worked through most of the arguments for the non existence of god but way back when these would cause me some problems and i would have to struggle with my faith to continue to believe i can see where others less stubborn than i and i do mean stubborn stubborness has often been the only thing standing between me an atheism from time to time would fail the second category arises out of some long term personal difficulties and the struggle to live my life as god would have me live it without living my life as others would tell me how god would have me live it a good example of this is my struggle with the more radical christians i meet i am not nor have i ever been on fire for chirst and i don t think i ever want to be nevertheless i am not lukewarm about my faith so i don t really fit in with the mainstream either quite naturally i feel a lot of anxiety about my dislocation within christian society and it can lead to a lot of internal tension when i want to do what i know is right but when another part of me believes that what i want to do is wrong because all the other christians think so to quite naturally this tension has a destructive effect on my relationship with god and during all of this internal strife there s atheism sitting there like the promised land no rules no responsibilities no need to live up to anyone s expectations but my own complete freedom of course it s all an illusion but nevertheless it s a very appealing illusion especially when the so called people of god are behaving like total twits i can easily understand why someone would go that route and would be hostile to ever coming back imho many of the former christians turned atheists who are now actively hostile to christianity are so because their experience with christ and god wasn t a very peaceful one but one of mind control and shut up and do what you re told because we know what s best for you because it s god s will and you re to young to know what god s will is yet courtesy of some of christ s more overzealous followers a final reason why people become atheists is because christians do not have a very good reputation right now one of the things that attracted people to christianity in the ancient days was the love that christians obviously had for one another and the world around them unlike the rest of the world christian communities actively cared for their poor and the christian rich did not trod on the backs of their poorer brothers but bent down to help them christians were known for living exemplary lives even if they were thought to be traitors to the state because they wouldn t sacrifice to the emporer nowadays courtesy of the media and some christian leaders who lost christ on their way to power people see christians as sexually repressed hippocritical busibodies who want to remake society into a facist version of their own moral view there are a lot more reasons why people become atheists but i don t have time to go into them right now tom ault
soc.religion.christian	re god morality and massacres jek cu nih gov james kiefer writes stuff deleted first point what they are doing is wrong just as what joseph s brothers did was wrong just as what judas did was wrong they intend it for evil if god somehow brings good out of it that does not make them any less subject to just condemnation and punishment second point of course god will bring good out of it but not the same good that he would have brought if the serbians had refrained from the sins of robbery and rape and murder nor does the good he purposes excuse us from the duty of doing what is right so what you re saying then is that god exercises direct control or influence upon humanity he doesn t control our every thought or action but takes what we do whether it be intended for evil or not and turns it into something good it seems to me that this idea conflicts with the belief that god gave humans free will as far as i can determine it is impossible to reconcile these two different ideas if god were to exert his influence upon anyone or anything at anytime he would be impeding upon someone s free will unless of course you believe that god did not give us complete and unabated free will but rather some sort of conditional free will something that allows us to make our own choices and control our own lives except when god wants to use us to fulfill some good purpose of his own by hardening our heart or controlling us in some other way i hear alot of people who look at various events mostly catastrophies or things like the aids epidemic and make comments about god s will i have a very difficult time understanding why people believe that god controls anything that happens on this planet except possibly when being asked to through someone s prayer according to the bible pharoah was going to let moses people go after one or two plagues but god kept hardening his heart so moses could cast all plagues upon the egyptians the last plague causing the death of many innocent children so then god impeded upon pharoah s free will and used him as a puppet god did this not just to free the hebrews but to free them in some sort of a grand fashion i suppose from the hebrew s point of view this could be seen as turning something bad into good but i m sure the egyptians didn t see it this way all of your examples of how god turned something bad into something good are based upon showing favortism to one group of people over another after all it s only good based upon your point of view why does god who is supposed to be the god of all of humanity play favorites
soc.religion.christian	re why do people become atheists in article may athos rutgers edu muirm argon gas organpipe uug arizona edu maxwell c muir writes i think you should give up the amatuer psysochology in all candor i would be happy to be proven wrong problem is i will have to be proven wrong do i sound broken to you absolutely not i went through a journey of lukewarm christianity agnosticism atheism agnosticism and now although i know my faith is less than what it should be christianity again i think it s a path many of us take jeff johnson jcj tellabs com
soc.religion.christian	re revelations babylon woo so far we ve had the following interpretations of the figure of the whore of babylon in rev a the united states of america b mho db which was as a figure of the fallen spiritual powers who corrupt and oppress human society c historical jerusalem d historical rome dare i suggest that the passage might be many layered in meaning how about the prophecy reveals god s judgement on the corrupt idolatrous state oppressing his chosen people d that god s judgement extends especially to his once chosen city c because despite that city s special call it still rejected god s grace at the decisive time rev also isn t rev equally suggestive of rome as jerusalem that the usofa is guilty of many of the crimes of rome babylon a and is equally subject to god s judgement that the good book tm actually encompasses all these viewpoints by revealing the corrupting spiritual powers warring against mankind through the very society that we ve created b clever huh flame here no need to argue at all i think mary s view has a lot of sense because there seems to be a deliberate contrast between rev and rev the mortal jerusalem chosen by god but never historically fulfilling its vocation and the new jerusalem perfected outside of history purely by god s grace eg details like rev who sits on many waters cf rev the single stream in the new jersualem the river of life flowing from the throne of god and of the lamb rex didn t understand your post what s the relevance of babylonian mystery religions to all this please elaborate your ideas about ot the book of rev why do you freak at the idea of a primarily spiritual interpretation of rev i d mail but i can t get thru unknown or illegal user reflex fnal fnal gov something you re not telling us
soc.religion.christian	question about hell what is the basis of the idea of hell being a place of eternal suffering if it is biblical please reference here s my train of thought if god is using the earth to manufacture heavenly beings then it is logical that there would be a certain yield and a certain amount of waste the yield goes to heaven and the waste is burned destroyed in hell why is it necessary to punish the waste rather than just destroy it peace and joy dale wyttenbach
soc.religion.christian	re monophysites and mike walker in article may athos rutgers edu nabil cae wisc edu nabil ayoub writes as a final note the oriental orthodox and eastren orthodox did sign a common statement of christology in which the heresey of monophysitism was condemned so the coptic orthodox church does not believe in monophysitism this is a point that seems to have been overlooked by many the ending of a year old schism seems to be in sight the theologians said that the differences between them were fundamentally ones or terminology and that the christological faith of both groups was the same some parishes have concelebrated the eucharist and here in southern africa we are running a joint theological training course for coptic and byzantine orthodox there are still several things to be sorted out however as far as the copts are concerned there were three ecumenical councils whily the byzantine orthodox acknowledge seven steve hayes department of missiology editorial department univ of south africa p o box pretoria south africa internet hayesstw risc unisa ac za fidonet steve hayes p f n z fidonet org faq missiology is the study of christian mission and is part of the faculty of theology at unisa
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity in article may athos rutgers edu whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu writes any one who thinks that homosexuality and christianity are compatible should check out romans i corinthians i timothy jude ii peter gen lev to name a few of the verses that pertain to homosexuality but wouldn t that go for any sin my father told me when he was growing up catholics were not allowed to associate with anyone who was divorced there are a few verses prohibitting divorce somehow divorce became acceptable even in catholicism anullments certainly it is no longer a sin to associate with a divorced person the point is that each person has their own temptations to deal with paul repeatedly talks about the thorn in his side some think it refers to lust others pride but who knows whatever the thorn was apparently it was not compatible with christianity yet does that make his epistles any less the bible warns us against judging greed anxiety impure thoughts bearing grudges etc etc i suppose we should seek out all the so called christians who have entertained impure thoughts and oust them all those who have given in to greed get em outta here jesus pointed out that he was the physician for the sinners any attempts to make homosexuals feel unwelcome because of our discomfort with homosexuality is incompatible with christianity is our hatred so deep that rather than see someone try to become closer to jesus we need to keep them away does jesus need us to screen out those guilty of a particular sin do we really mistrust jesus when he says he can forgive any sin think about it among the people jesus encountered were sinners and the pharisees the sinners he embraced and forgave the pharisees hypocritcal unmerciful self righteous pointed out others sins and did not seek and thus did not gain forgiveness of their own sins what i take from this and other verses is that if we do not admit our sins those sins will not be forgiven and since those guilty of even one sin are guilty of the whole law those not repenting the judging of others are guilty as guilty as if they committed the same sin they judged others of the poor in spirit meek humble merciful pure of heart peacemakers those who thirst for justice those who suffer for his sake are blessed joe moore
soc.religion.christian	re mormon temples in article may athos rutgers edu jwindley cheap cs utah edu jay windley writes there are other interpretations to christian history in this matter one must recall that most of what we know about the gnostics was written by their enemies eusebius claims that jesus imparted secret information to peter james and john after his resurrection and that those apostles transmitted that information to the rest of the twelve eusebius historia ecclesiastica ii this is curious i read in eh the lord imparted the gift of knowledge to james the just to john and peter after his resurrection these delivered it to the rest of the apostles and they to the seventy of whom barnabas was one eusebius ecclesiastical history it seems that the lord imparted the gift of knowledge not that the lord imparted secret information apostles interestingly enough eusebius refers to the groups which we today call gnostics as promulgators of a false gnosis eusebius op cit iii his gripe was not that thay professed a gnosis but that they had the wrong one i m afraid that i cannot find this portrayal in eh i don t see anywhere in where eusebius mentions that certain gnostics had the wrong gnosis the closest is when eusebius summarizes hegesippus statements whilst if there were any at all that attempted to pervert the sound doctrine of the saving gospel they were yet skulking in dark retreats now one can approach this and other such evidence in many ways i don t intend that everyone interpret christian history as i do but i believe that evidence exists favorably interpreted of course of early christian rites analogous to those practiced by mormons today favorably interpreted just in looking at two of the four references that you gave i have the eh handy irenaeus and the clemetine recognitions i will have to look for i see no room for such interpretations and any such interpretation still falls short of an equivalence to the temple ceremonies the links for jay s using eh for support are imparting the gift of knowledge imparted secret information being given secret signs and tokens to gain entrance to heaven but there is not enough equivalence between the the ideas for us to be able to call this favorable interpretation it appears to be closer to fabrication robert weiss psyrobtw ubvms cc buffalo edu
soc.religion.christian	re mormon beliefs about bastards in article may athos rutgers edu erh tesla njit edu writes could anyone enlighten me on how the mormon church views children born out of wedlock in particular i m interested to know if any stigma is attached to the children as opposed to the parents i m especially keen to learn if there is or is not any prohibition in the mormon faith on bastards entering heaven or having their names entered in the big genealogical book the mormons keep in salt lake city if this is an issue on which the official position has changed over time i m interested in learning both old and new beliefs e mail or posting is fine all information or pointers are appreciated well since my wife is in your gentle term a bastard i can probably speak with a bit of authority on this any stigma associated with children conceived and or born out of wedlock rests solely upon the parents they ve committed a sexual transgression for which they should repent the child itself has no a priori limitations on him or her indeed the concept of blaming the child for the parents sins is one most mormons would find appalling note that lds theology rejects original sin as the term is usually defined and the subsequent need for infant baptism cf moroni in the book of mormon indeed lds doctrine goes one step further and in some cases holds parents responsible for their children s sins if they have failed to bring them up properly cf d c note that this passage applies it only to members of the lds church also note that there is no big genealogical book in salt lake city the lds church has a massive storage facility in the nearby mountains containing on microfilm vital statistic records birth christening baptism marriage death gathered from all over the entire world i may be misremembering but i believe they have records for some billion people in that vault at the same time the lds church is building up an on line genealogical database in neither case is there some kind of worthiness screening as to whether someone can be entered in the only potential issue is that of establishing who the parents were and that would apply only in the case of the database bruce bruce f webster i love the constitution of this land cto pages software inc but i hate the damned rascals that bwebster pages com administer it import pages disclaimer h attributed to brigham young the following arrived as a separate posting clh a follow up to my own follow up lest anyone misunderstand the term bastard is one which i have never in years of lds church membership heard applied formally or informally to a child born out of wedlock and indeed would rightly be considered a vulgar offensive term i would not have echoed the expression in my reply except in hopes that the poster would recognize the offensive nature of the word in the given context unfortunately after posting my reply i remembered that subtle points are often lost on the net and figured i d better spell it out bruce bruce f webster bwebster pages com
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity in article geneva rutgers edu loisc microsoft com lois christiansen writes you might visit some congregations of christians who happen to be homosexuals that are spirit filled believers not mcc rs before you go lumping us all together with troy perry gee i think there are some real criminals robbers muderers drug addicts who appear to be fun loving caring people too so what s your point is it ok just because the people are nice isn t satan having a hayday pitting christian against christian over any issue he can especially homosexuality let s reach the homosexuals for christ let s not try to change them just need to bring them to christ if he doesn t want them to be gay he can change that if they are living a moral life committed to someone of the same sex and god is moving in their lives who are we to tell them they have to change i think the old saying hate the sin and not the sinner is appropriate here many who belive homosexuality is wrong probably don t hate the people i don t i don t hate my kids when they do wrong either but i tell them what is right and if they lie or don t admit they are wrong or just don t make an effort to improve or repent they get punished i think this is quite appropriate you may want to be careful about how you think satan is working here maybe he is trying to destroy our sense of right and wrong through feel goodism maybe he is trying to convince you that you know more than god kind of like the adam and eve story read it and compare it to today s mentality you may be suprised
soc.religion.christian	re why do people become atheists ken then what happens when you die why are you here what is the purpose of your life do you think it s just by chance you re in the family you are in and have the friends you have why do you think your searching to fill the void that exists in your life who do you think can fill that void dave
soc.religion.christian	re why do people become atheists in article may athos rutgers edu gt b prism gatech edu randal lee nicholas mandock writes bob reminds me of my roommate in order to disbelieve atheism he says he will need to be proven wrong about it well i don t even waste my time trying i tell him that he ll just have to take my word for it in response he tells me he will say an atheist s prayer for me who is the atheist s prayer being said to
soc.religion.christian	re athiests and hell in article may athos rutgers edu rexlex fnal fnal gov writes much deleted point today might be the masons just a note that they too worshipped osiris in egypt much deleted it bugs me when i see this kind of nonsense first there is no reasonable evidence linking masonry to ancient egypt or even that it existed prior to the late th century and there s nothing definitive before the th second worship of osiris is not nor has it ever been a part of masonic practice we are strictly non denominational tangents never ending tangents you said it rex peter trei ptrei mitre org editor masonic digest
soc.religion.christian	re why do people become atheists in article may athos rutgers edu noye midway uchicago edu writes christians can also feel that sense of difference however when they are associated with those weird televangelists who always talk about satan if you ll excuse the cliched sound of this everyone has to deal with his her differences from other people i can understand how being an atheist could be hard for you being a christian is sometimes hard for me this is not at all comparable christianity is the main stream in western culture you are trivializing the experiences of others i remember what it was like being different as a christian we were told all the time that we were different and in fact that only members of the our church were really christians though others who believed in god weren t as bad as atheists so we were a small minority that was nothing compared to being an atheist the only thing comparable would be a young child being christian being surrounded by staunch atheists including parents who actively persecute any religious tendancies both actual punishments and even worse emotional blackmail they would also have to have the whole mainstream society on their side maybe these conditions could have occured in the old soviet union not in a country with under god in its pledge of allegiance i doubt it even then because children have to be taught to be christians and hence must have support somewhere i have sympathy for gays growing up in repressive environments and having to hide and sometimes at first try to deny a part of themselves because i ve been there only in my case it was my rationality instead of sexuality which i was forced to try to repress in some way the pressures were different of course because you chose your beliefs or are you saying that they were not your choice but born of necessity please no flames about whether or not gay people choose their lifestyle that s elsewhere in this newsgroup yes my atheism was born of necessity for an intellectually honest person belief is mostly a response to evidence will or wishes have nothing to do with it i could choose to lie or to be silent about my true beliefs i could no more choose to believe in the god of christianity than i could decide that the ordinary sky looks red to me still i should be clear that i m not equating what i went through with what gays go through however it is a mistake to assume that everyone who goes through painful experiences are broken by them happily some are made stronger once we get past it i must say that i wasn t hurt by my experiences in church any more than some of my friends who didn t become atheists i was just hurt differently i m not sure i understand this sentence could you explain not without going to details and violating the confidences of some of my childhood friends suffice it say to that religion does not guarantee that a person will be happy and strong emotionally and a repressive upbringing can leave its scars even or especially on those who don t get free of it i doubt that any sane and sincere person doubts that and i feel no need to defend it by the way i am much happier and stronger being out of the closet in the end it has been as someone eloquently put it in private email an experience of liberation rather than disillusion bill mayne
soc.religion.christian	re homosexual issues in christianity mls panix com michael siemon writes in may athos rutgers edu whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu bryan whitsell writes any one who thinks that homosexuality and christianity are compatible should check out romans i corinthians i timothy jude ii peter gen lev to name a few of the verses that pertain to homosexuality homosexual christians have indeed checked out these verses some of them are used against us only through incredibly perverse interpretations others simply do not address the issues i can see that some of the above verses do not clearly address the issues however a couple of them seem as though they do not require incredibly perverse interpretations in order to be seen as condemning homosexuality do not be deceived neither fornicators nor idolators nor adulterers nor effeminate nor homosexuals nor thieves nor the covetous nor drunkards nor revilers nor swindlers shall inherit the kingdom of god and such were some of you i cor would someone care to comment on the fact that the above seems to say fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of god how does this apply to homosexuals i understand fornication to be sex outside of marriage is this an accurate definition is there any such thing as same sex marriage in the bible my understanding has always been that the new testament blesses sexual intercourse only between a husband and his wife i am however willing to listen to scriptural evidence to the contrary you shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female it is an abomination also you shall not have intercourse with any animal to be defiled with it nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it it is a perversion lev i notice that the verse forbidding bestiality immediately follows the verse prohibiting what appears to be homosexual intercourse i know of no new testament passages that clearly condemn or even mention intercourse with animals do those who argue for the legitimacy of homosexual intercourse believe that the bible condemns bestiality as a perversion and if so why that is what verses would you cite to prove that bestiality was perverted and sinful could the verses you cite be refuted by interpreting them differently can one be a christian zoophile by the way i myself am subject to sexual desires that i did not choose to have and that many people would regard as perverted and sinful so please understand that i am not asking these questions out of an antipathy towards my fellow people of alternative orientations i do believe however that one should read the bible with an attitude of what is the bible trying to say and not what do i want the bible to say i choose not to give in to my perverted sexual desires because i believe the bible tries to tell me whether i like it or not that such things are sin it is frustrating at times and i have had days where it really got me down but i don t blame god for this i blame the sin itself mark there s some ambiguity about the meaning of the words in the passage you quote both liberal and conservative sources seem to agree that homosexual is not the general term for homosexuals but is likely to have a meaning like homosexual prostitute that doesn t meant that i think all the biblical evidence vanishes but the nature of the evidence is such that you can t just quote one verse and solve things i think your argument from fornication is circular why is homosexuality wrong because it s fornication why is it fornication because they re not married why aren t they married because the church refuses to do a marriage ceremony why does the church refuse to do a marriage ceremony because homosexuality is wrong in order to break the circle there s got to be some other reason to think homosexuality is wrong clh
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christiani whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu bryan whitsell writes i see no other way of interpreting them other than homosexuyality being wrong please tell me how these verses can be interpreted in any other way i read them and the surrounding text but that is exactly what i was asking if the homosexual community is that the proper term has decided that christianity is not against homosexual behaviour but rather condones it then how do they interpret these verses i guess what i am really looking for is a homosexual response todd
soc.religion.christian	re why do people become atheists in article may athos rutgers edu fil sapienza med umich edu fil sapienza writes i am interested in finding out why people become atheists after having believed in some god god in conversing with them on other groups i ve often sensed anger or hostility though i don t mean to imply that all atheists are angry or hostile it does seem to be one motivation for giving up faith thus some atheism might result from broken ness i m atheist just because there is no supreme being there is the world as we know it and it s wonderful and incredible and there is love between people and these things are everything i don t believe in a god that made this all i believe in the amazing and beautiful teaming with life world i live in
soc.religion.christian	re war should christians fight in article athos rutgers edu david s hsr no david a sjoen writes personally i think that christians shouldn t fight as christians we are not supposed to defend ourselves matt heb war is a result of sin defense may be a necessary reaction to an attack but i don t think that we as christians should take part in this what if you are trying to defend someone else should you allow killing and oppression to continiue or is it our obligation to protect the innocent
soc.religion.christian	re mormon temples on secrecy in lds ceremonies clh i think christ summed it up quite nicely when he said something about casting pearls before swine why tell people things that are most sacred to you when all they will do with it is belittle it you have to be little to belittle
soc.religion.christian	re mary s assumption i hate to sound flippant having shot off my mouth badly on the net before but i m afraid that much of this material only adds to my feeling that the assumption of mary would be better phrased our assumptions about mary in all the time i ve been reading about mary on this group i can not recall reading much about mary that did not sound like wishful veneration with scant if any scriptural foundation i find in the new testament a very real portrait of christ s parents as compellingly human persons to be honored and admired for their humility and submission to god s working beyond doubt but the almalga mation of theories and dogma that has accreted around them gives me an image of alien and inhuman creatures untouched by sin or human desire only christ himself was so truly sanctified and even he knew temptation albeit without submitting to it i also don t see the necessity of saying the holy parents were some how sanctified beyond normal humanity it sounds like our own inability to grasp the immensity of god s grace in being incarnated through an or dinary human being i won t start yelling about how people are worshipping mary etc since folks have told me otherwise about that but i do think we lose part of the wonder of god s incarnation in christ when we make his parents out to be sinless sexless deathless otherworldly beings paul marxhausen university of nebraska lincoln grace happens
soc.religion.christian	re serbian genocide work of god in article may athos rutgers edu db n andrew cmu edu d andrew byler writes does he believe in predestination of course i believe in predestination it s a very biblical doctrine as romans shows among other passages furthermore the church has always taught predestination from the very beginning really you may be right but i d like proof as far as i know and i am not a div school student the catholic church does not seem to accept predestination my chaplain told me beware of greeks bearing gifts with reference to this doctrine it seems to have the curious result that human beings are not held responsible for their own actions i ll answer how you deal with this in a minute but to say that i believe in predestination does not mean i do not believe in free will men freely choose the course of their life which is also affected by the grace of god however unlike the calvinists and jansenists i hold that grace is resistable otherwise you end up with the idiocy of denying the universal saving will of god timothy right that doesn t really seem like predestination to me but i ll continue with what you re saying for god must give enough grace to all to be saved but only the elect who he foreknew are predestined and receive the grace of final perserverance which guarantees heaven this does not mean that those without that grace can t be saved it just means that god foreknew their obstinacy and chose not to give it to them knowing they would not need it as they had freely chosen hell this is really confusing to me especially since i still believe that christ jesus died for all of us preknowledge of obstinacy seems like an awfully convoluted way to account for a couple of verses but then i am not really biblically supported in this opinion or am i others people who are saved are saved by the grace of god and not by their own effort for it was god who disposed them to himself and predestined them to become saints but those who perish in everlasting fire perish because they hardened their heart and chose to perish thus they were deserving of god s punishment as they had rejected their creator and sinned against the working of the holy spirit so god uses grace like margarine he only spreads it where it s needed and not where it isn t and so there are the saved and the not saved and nothing in between hmmmm yes it is up to god to judge but he will only mete out that punishment at the last judgement well i would hold that as god most certainly gives everybody some blessing for what good they have done even if it was only a little for those he can t bless in the next life he blesses in this one although i realize this doctrine was not originally intended to cause social problems it ends up doing just that if there is supposed to be some sort of sign that someone is elect like lots of children or success at work then those who have a good life on earth will go around thinking that those who don t are doomed to hell in a way though this sounds like the opposite idea those doomed to hell will have a great life on earth that s almost like the converse of what i believe responsibility for what we do now will be punished after we die you re saying what we get after we die has a direct bearing on how we live now strange and those he will not punish in the next life will be chastised in this one or in purgatory for their sins every sin incurs some temporal punishment thus god will punish it unless satisfaction is made for it cf samuel david s sin of adultery and murder were forgiven but he was still punished with the death of his child and i need not point out the idea of punishment because of god s judgement is quite prevelant in the bible sodom and gommorrah moses barred from the holy land the slaughter of the cannanites annias and saphira jerusalem in ad etc so sin is either punished now or later and not both what if it s sort of half punished are there any grey areas in this doctrine my stuff deleted we should stop the slaughter of the innocent cf proverbs but does that mean that christians should support a war in bosnia with the u s or even the u n involved i do not think so but i am an isolationist and disagree with foreign adventures in general but in the case of bosnia i frankly see no excuse for us getting militarily involved it would not be a just war blessed after all are the peacemakers was what our lord said not the interventionists our actions in bosnia must be for peace and not for a war which is unrelated to anything to justify it for us the idea well my idea would be that you would intervene to establish peace and stop the atrocities i m not suggesting wwiii i don t really understand what you mean by a just war of course i am not an isolationist although i see some merit in not jumping in at the first opportunity can you say kuwait we happen to be a big country with a lot of resources as well as a lot of debt and this gives us some responsibility in the world whether we like it or not flashbacks of wwii as well as vietnam should be haunting us yet another difference of opinion so be it andy byler thank you for answering i hope you don t take any of my comments as flames but instead as expressions of interest vera i am your clock i bind unto myself today vera noyes i am your religion the strong name of the noye midway uchicago edu i own you trinity no disclaimer what lard st patrick s breastplate is there to disclaim
soc.religion.christian	re question about virgin mary in article may athos rutgers edu db n andrew cmu edu d andrew byler writes and it should be noted that the monophysite chruches of egypt and syria also hold to this belief as part of divine revelation even though they broke away from the unity of the chruch in ad by rejecting the council of chalcedon it might be argued by some protestants that the catholics and orthodox made this belief up but the monophysites put a big hole in that notion as they also hold the belief and they split from the chruch before the belief was first annunciated in writing as far as is known much has been lost from the time of the fathers the belief that the churches of egypt and syria were or are monophysite is false as is the belief that they often held that the council of chalcedon was nestorian these misunderstandings were exacerbated by political factors and thus led to schism a schism that is on its way to being healed steve hayes department of missiology editorial department univ of south africa p o box pretoria south africa internet hayesstw risc unisa ac za fidonet steve hayes p f n z fidonet org faq missiology is the study of christian mission and is part of the faculty of theology at unisa
soc.religion.christian	sj mercury s reference to fundamentalist christian parents in the monday may morning edition of the san jose mercury news an article by sandra gonzales at the top of page a explained convicted killer david edwin mason s troubled childhood saying raised in oakland and san lorenzo by strict fundamentalist christian parents mason was beaten as a child he once was tied to a workbench and gagged with a cloth after he accidently urinated on his mother when she walked under his bedroom window court records show were the san jose mercury news to come out with an article starting with raised in oakland by mexican parents mason was beaten my face would be red with anger over the injustice done to my mexican family members and the mexican community as a whole i m sure sandra gonzales would be equally upset why is it that open biggotry like this is practiced and encouraged by the san jose mercury news when it is pointed at the christian community can a good christian continue to purchase newspapers and buy advertising in this kind of a newspaper this is really bad journalism i m upset
soc.religion.christian	re christianity and repeated lives smayo world std com scott a mayo writes gerry palo writes there is nothing in christianity that precludes the idea of repeated lives on earth doesn t it say somewhere it is appointed to man once to die and then judgement i don t have a concordance here but i have some dim memory that this appears somewhere in the bible given a fairly specific context for what judgement is i d say that more or less decides the issue heb clh that depends on how this verse is read there are at least two meanings of the word once only one time and at some other time i e once upon a time note that in the previous verse the word once is used with the second meaning and also in the following verse once is again used with the second meaning the greek i am sure uses different words for each of the two meanings for the english word once i am not a greek scholar but i m sure someone here can verify which greek word is used here for this meaning if the second meaning is being used that verse can be interpreted as for it was once given for men to die beginning with adam but after this gift of atonement offered by jesus christ the judgement is made available for now there is no longer death but life with christ daniel cossack danc procom com compuserve com senior software engineer dupont drive irvine ca procom technology inc
soc.religion.christian	re question about virgin mary d andrew byler db n andrew cmu edu wrote however greatly we extoll mary it is quite obvious that she is in no way god or even part of god or equal to god the assumption of our blessed mother meant that because of her close identification with the redemptive work of christ she was assumed note that she did not ascend body and soul into heaven and is thus one of the few along with elijah enoch moses maybe who are already perfected in heaven obviously the virgin mary is far superior in glorification to any of the previously mentioned personages as i said it is a provocative thought from answer to job the logical consistency of the papal declaration cannot be surpassed and it leaves protestantism with the odium of being nothing but a man s religion which allows no metaphysical representation of woman protestantism has obviously not given sufficient attention to the signs of the times which point to the equality of women but this equality requires to be metaphysically anchored in the figure of a divine woman the bride of christ just as the person of christ cannot be replaced by an organization so the bride cannot be re placed by the church the feminine like the masculine demands an equally personal representation the dogmatizing of the assumption does not however according to the dogmatic view mean that mary has attained the status of a goddess although as mistress of heaven and mediatrix she is functionally on a par with christ the king and mediator at any rate her position satisfies the need of the archetype par jung should stick to psychology rather than getting into theology jung made it clear that he was talking about psychology not theology his comments had to do with the psychological image of god and its function in the human psyche not about the actual existence or nature of god revdak netcom com
soc.religion.christian	re major views of the trinity in article may athos rutgers edu you write yes my comments were long enough that i don t want to repeat them here but i ll send them via email back to the author certainly it was not intended to be a description of three similar deities though i certainly see why it would look that way thanks for the letter your comments helped some as to the last comment i certainly realize that it was not intended to sound that way i am still trying to understand how a spiritual being colud truly be one and three at the same time all of the descriptions of this are either platonic or sound like special pleading sort of they appear to be three seperate beings in all ways but really they are one trust me neither of these is acceptible to me the fact is so far the only descriptions of the trinity that makes any sense to me are the modalistic ones such as modalistic monarchianism or economic trinitarianism i can accept that the three aspects are intrinsic to the nature of god so i perhaps lean more towards the latter i am trying here to see if anybody can come up with another description that is both orthodox and believable sarima teradata com formerly tdatirv sarima or stanley friesen elsegundoca ncr com i fear orthodox theologians have been overly in love with paradox to the extent that well meaning people think they ve just flat out confused there s no problem with things being both and e g if the are different parts of the father son and holy spirit aren t exactly parts of god because parts are things distinguished by physical separation all three persons are omnipresent so they are obviously aren t physically separate but they re in some way different aspects modes or whatever of one god if you accept economic trinitarianism it s possible that you don t have any substantive difference with the standard view is it possible that you just don t find the neo platonic explanation illuminating clh
soc.religion.christian	daily verse for he himself is our peace who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier the dividing wall of hostility ephesians
soc.religion.christian	re monophysites and mike walker in article may athos rutgers edu db n andrew cmu edu d andrew byler writes nabil ayoub writes as a final note the oriental orthodox and eastren orthodox did sign a common statement of christology in which the heresey of monophysitism was condemned so the coptic orthodox church does not believe in monophysitism sorry what does the coptic church believe about the will and energy of christ were there one or were there two i e human and divine wills and energies in him also what is the objection ot the copts with the pope of rome i e why is there a coptic catholic church do you reject the supreme jurisdiction of the rd sucessor of st peter who blessed st john mark bishop of alexandria was translator for and his predecessors or his infallibility or what other things perhaps for your first set of questions regarding the energy and will of christ i quote to you the relevant part of the statement signed by both eastern chalcedonian and oriental non chalcedonian orthodox scholars a few years ago both families both orthodox churches both families agreed in condemning the eutychian heresy both families confess that the logos the second person of the holy trinity only begotten of the father before the ages and consubstantial with him was incarnate and was born from the virgin mary theotokos fully consubstantial with us perfect man with soul body and mind nu o upsilon zeta he was crucified died was buried and rose from the dead on the third day ascended to the heavenly father where he sits on the right hand of the father as lord of all creation at pentecost by the coming of the holy spirit he manifested the church as his body we look forward to his coming again in the fullness of his glory according to the scriptures both families condemn the nestorian heresy and the crypto nestorianism of theodoret of cyrus they agree that it is not sufficient merely to say that christ is consubstantial both with his father and with us by nature god and by nature man it is necessary to affirm also that the logos who is by nature god became by nature man by his incarnation in the fullness of time both families agree that the hypostasis of the logos became composite by uniting to his divine uncreated nature with its natural will and energy which he has in common with the father and the holy spirit created human nature which he assumed at the incarnation and made his own with its natural will and energy both families agree that the natures with their proper energies and wills are united hypostatically and naturally without confusion without change without division and without separation and that they are distinguished in thought alone both families agree that he who wills and acts is always the one hypostasis of the logos incarnate i guess that adresses your question adequately as for your second set of questions i am afraid they are irrelevant to the discussion at least from my point of view of monophysitism i do not see how they relate to the topic we are discussing other than to start an endless orthodox rc debate which i do not plan to engage into as a brief answer to your questions the position of the coptic orthodox church regarding the roman pontiff his jurisdiction his infalability etc is exactly the same as all the other orthodox churches peace nabil nabil ayoub engine research center dept of mechanical engineering university of wisconsin madison email ayoub erctitan me wisc edu
soc.religion.christian	re god morality and massacres without quoting at length from the preceeding post i d just like to say that i find it a much more appropriate way of dealing with issues like the holocaust and bosnia that asserting that god is punishing them the activity of god is always redemptive which means restoring what has been lost broken or distorted so god does not will the brokenness lostness distortion genocide poverty etc but is nonetheless capable willing and active to restore heal mend and redeeem revdak netcom com
soc.religion.christian	re monophysites and mike walker in article may athos rutgers edu our moderator comments chalcedon was a compromise between two groups the alexandrians and antiochenes it adopted language that was intended to be acceptable to moderates in both camps while ruling out the extremes i agree that there were extremes that were heretical however in the course of the complex politics of the time it appears that some people got rejected who didn t intend heresy but simply used language that was not understood or even was mispresented and some seem not to have jointed in the compromise for reasons other than doctrine there are groups descended from both of the supposedly heretical camps this posting discussed the descendants of the alexandrians there are also a remaining nestorians like some of the current so called monophysites there is reason to believe that the current so called nestorians are not heretical either they sheltered nestorius from what they saw as unfair treatment but claim they did not adopt his heresies and in fact seem to follow more moderate representatives of the antiochene tradition clh there is a big difference between the status of what you refer to as alexandrians actually this includes all oriental orthodox churches and not only copts and that of nestorians the oriental orthodox churches never even shelter eutyches the advocator of monophysitism but on the contrary it condemned and still does condemn him and his heresy that is why the eastren chalcedonian orthodox church held talks with the oriental non chalcedonian that started years ago and still continueing till today but they have converged on many issues the most imporatant of which is christology i have more details of the inter orthodox dialogue in case anyone is interested so i do not see how the alexandrians and the nestorians are in a similar position peace nabil nabil ayoub engine research center dept of mechanical engineering university of wisconsin madison email ayoub erctitan me wisc edu
soc.religion.christian	re the nicene creed was re major views of the trinity in article may athos rutgers edu db n andrew cmu edu d andrew byler writes the so called creed of athanasius however has always been a western creed and has always had the filioque the orthodox have said that they accept all that it says with the exception of the filioque but it is not in use of course the orthodox did not delete the filioque from the nicene creed it wasn t there to begin with but they certainly did from the athanasian creed which did have it from the beginning the so called athanasian creed has never been a recognized standard of faith in the orthodox church it was introduced without the filioque in certain service books in the th and th centuries at a time when there was a strong western influence on orhtodoxy steve hayes department of missiology editorial department univ of south africa p o box pretoria south africa internet hayesstw risc unisa ac za fidonet steve hayes p f n z fidonet org faq missiology is the study of christian mission and is part of the faculty of theology at unisa
soc.religion.christian	re earthquake prediction mserv mozart cc iup edu mail server writes ok a few days back the below included message was posted stating i believe with everything in my heart that on may the city of portland oregon in the country of the united states of america will be hit with a catastrophic and disastrous earthquake by now we know that this did not come to pass i don t think it s particularly glorifying to god to say things like well i think the lord is telling me such statements seem to me to be an attempt to get a spiritual thrill should the guess happen to come true without risking the guilt of false prophecy should it fail to come to pass i do not believe genuine prophecy was ever like this comments i agree people should not be misled to believe thus sayeth the lord by innuendo or opinion or speculation speak directly if the lord has given you something to say say it but before i declare thus sayeth the lord i d better know for certain without a shadow of a doubt that i am in the correct spiritual condition and relationship with the lord to receive such a prophecy and be absolutely certain again without the tiniest shadow of a doubt that there is no possibility of my being misled by my own imaginations or by my hope of gaining recognition or of being misled by the wiles of the devil and his followers mistakes in this area are costly and dangerous for me my greatest fears in this area would be the following that the people would be misled that people would lose respect for christianity that true prophecy would be clouded by all the false prophecies were god to call me to be a prophet and i were to misrepresent god s word my calling would be lost forever god s word would command the people never to listen to or fear my words as i would be a false prophet my bridges would be burnt forever perhaps i could repent and be saved but i could never again be a prophet of god in the light of this it is critical that we speak when the lord says speak and that we be silent when the lord says to be silent lest we deprive the world of god s word and hide it under a bushel either by our inappropriate cowardly silence or by our false statements and because of this it is critically important that we remain close to the lord in his word and in prayer and filled with the spirit of god so that we know the difference in this day and age sinners spout off their mouths left and right judging one another claiming rights that are not theirs denying rights that do indeed belong to others demanding equal respect for all the gods of this world and uttering every form of falseness that promises to make one feel good it s time that we christians give an example of honesty that stands out in contrast against this backdrop of falsehood when we say thus sayeth the lord it happens when we pray prayer is answered because we prayed right when we say we re christians we really mean it dan i deplore the horrible crime of child murder we want prevention not merely punishment we must reach the root of the evil it is practiced by those whose inmost souls revolt from the dreadful deed no mater what the motive love of ease or a desire to save from suffering the unborn innocent the woman is awfully guilty who commits the deed but oh thrice guilty is he who drove her to the desperation which impelled her to the crime susan b anthony the revolution july
soc.religion.christian	re major views of the trinity and filioque in article may geneva rutgers edu steve hayes f n z fidonet org writes may d andrew byler writes to all on the athanasian creed do you have any evidence that it is used by the orthodox churches as far as i know it is purely western like the apostles creed the orthodox churches use the symbol of faith commonly called the nicene creed i have seen it used in an orthodox church once although i can t recall why i found it odd to say the least also i object to the statement that the orthodox delete the filioque from the original form of the creed the creed originally did not contain that phrase and it is not present in the greek original which hangs by my desk not intending to start a flame war we didn t need to delete what wasn t there larry overacker llo shell com lawrence overacker shell oil company information center houston tx llo shell com
soc.religion.christian	re if there were no hell ofm comments the only problem with this is that jesus does use hell as a threat he doesn t sound like some of the more extreme fire and brimstone preachers and i don t think he wants people to live in abject fear but he talks a lot about people being found unworthy and mentions hell a number of times i agree that it might be more pleasant to think that it doesn t exist i certainly don t agree that god is some sort of sadist who tortures people forever but i am very much afraid that there really is a life and death spiritual struggle going on and that it is possible for people to lose in a serious way clh no disagreement at all that there is a very serious struggle going on but jesus more typically uses consequences as a threat that s quite different from hell classic tm jesus doesn t sound like the usual hell fire type of preacher he attracts people through what he does and the stongest example in jesus preaching is in the parable of lazarus and dives which is a parable in any case my point is that a fear based response to christ is not a freeing life affirming choice and isn t good news in a meaningful sense there are plenty of good reasons to follow jesus that have nothing to do with fear or a literal hell that still pertain to overcoming in the present struggle between god and the disloyal opposition a faith based in fear is not built on rock as we should found our faith but on ice if the fear were removed there would be no foundation that s basically why it matters to me i think we have many christians that don t have a solid basis for relating to the living incarnate god i cannot be fully open to the working of god in and through my life if my response to god is motivated on fear larry overacker llo shell com lawrence overacker shell oil company information center houston tx llo shell com
soc.religion.christian	re serbian genocide work of god you might want to re think your attitude about the holocaust after reading deuteronomy chapter on the contrary after the holocaust i would be very cautious about my interpretatoin of deuteronomy not everything that happens is in accordance with god s will you might guess which side of the predestination issue i am on i will never assume that evil is punishment by god especially when i am speaking of the evil that falls on someone else for my own life i will work to discern the hand of god in the evil that befalls me see the discussion earlier on luke revdak netcom com unreconstructed arminian
soc.religion.christian	dreams and out of body incidents hey folks i m fairly new to these groups tho some have heard from me before i d like to get your comments on a question that has been on my mind a lot what morals ethics apply to dreams and out of body incidents in normal dreams you can t control anything so obviously you aren t morally responsible for your actions but if you can contrive to control the action in dreams or do an oobe it seems like a morality applies now there seem to be alternatives dreams and oobes are totally mental phenomena in this case no morality applies beyond what might be called mental hygiene that is not trying to think about anything evil or indulgining in overly sexy or violent thoughts dreams and oobes have a reality of their own i e are another plane evidence for this is that often dreams and oobes are sometimes done in common by more than one person a mark of objective fact is that people report the same objective experience in this case the same interpersonal morality ethics applies in dreams and oobes as does in waking life like but here we assume that though the dreeam and oobe environs have a real existence a different moral ethics apply there and no or maybe different moral laws apply there so there it is is one of these cases the truth or does anyone know of another alternative respond by post or email thanks very much dt
soc.religion.christian	re why do people become atheists in article may athos rutgers edu gt b prism gatech edu randal lee nicholas mandock writes in article may athos rutgers edu muirm argon gas organpipe uug arizona edu maxwell c muir writes in all candor i would be happy to be proven wrong about believing in atheism problem is i will have to be proven wrong in mentioning some nonsense about psychology and atheism bob muir asks the following question no smiley on the part about atheism i see do you realize that your statement says that i was mentioning nonsense about atheism this is hard for me to defend against if this is the claim you are making as you have only included the last two sentences of my post and mentioned the first please address the substance of my post rather than rejecting it out of hand but because of the sometimes ambiguous nature of english i may be misinterpreting your wording here please clarify did you or did you not mean to call my statements about atheism nonsense if so care to back up that claim do i sound broken to you i answer in the affirmative ok then start up the amatuer psycology again how am i broken is it politically correct for christians to be the only besieged group permitted the luxury of arrogance yawn excuse me i don t recall any portion of my post in which i called christians arrogant quote me if i did i do remember calling christianity silly and then following that up with information that i was nine years old when i thought that i also said that i find faith to be intellectually dishonest and i would like to see some sort of proof of your god s existence i define faith as belief in the absense of any proof btw also i subscribe to a a as i mentioned and we see fundies of all types there so in answer to your question no finally i d hardly call christianity beseiged in this country i seldom see christians ridiculed for merely practising their religion or wearing crosses or having christian bumper stickers i don t know for sure of course i only say i haven t seen it happening what i have seen happening is my homosexual and or friends being beat up or preached at by people who claim to be christ s followers i know that this sort of thing isn t practiced by the majority of christians but it is a very vocal minority who are doing it and i don t see comperable victimization of christians now i have a question for bob why in the world would any self respecting atheist want to subscribe to a christian news group the implication being that i am not self respecting of course i m not a student of psychology btw but i am a student of creative writing and linguistics so literary analysis is my forte also if the implications i see are improper please let me know i m here because i m not sequestered in my own little atheist cubbyhole as you seem to think atheists should be did it occur to you that i don t think i know everything and that maybe someone will say something that will change my life have you read my other posts here or did you see atheist and decide it was time to poke at someone who doesn t deserve your respect aw geez i m sorry i probably am getting my back up a little too high here it s just that the nonsense thing really annoys me i figure you should see my first reactions though since they are my true reactions to your question now the smoothed feather version i seek all sorts of knowledge that s why i came to my university yes i am looking at your religion well sorta i have no idea what kind of christian you are from the outside and hopefully with an objective view i ve been trying to ask reasoned questions here because i genuinely don t know the answers to them but when i saw the question directed at atheists i figured i would answer after all you can speculate about atheist motives here all you want hence the amatuer psychology crack but without an atheist you can t be sure of even one atheist s motive i m hoping people really want to know and i was trying to show that i actually checked out several religions and i actually read all the pamphlets people have to offer and i actually think about these things instead i m still faced with the implication that atheism is some kind of aberration and that only broken people are atheist try it from the flip side i posit that atheism is the natural state and only broken people are theists i offer as proof that so many people witness from horrible lives which picked up as soon as they discovered their religion that religion is regional if people didn t follow the religion of their areas there would be a more homogenous mix so many terrorists claim theistic motives and that theists tend to be so pushy and angry when challenged on alt atheism why are religions so successful because there is so much suffering in the world which breaks people it s an uncomfortable situation whichever way you look at it which is another reason i m here to try to see the flip side of my thinking and also as a watchdog for logical fallacies i have a difficult enough time keeping up with it and i think i know something about the subject the implication here being that atheists can t possibly know anything about christianity probably jumping at shadows again but i think my reaction is somewhat justified after all the first post suggested that atheists are broken hostile people this post confirms that someone else believes it bob reminds me of my roommate in order to disbelieve atheism he says he will need to be proven wrong about it well he got me there i am a strong atheist because i feel that lack of evidence especially about something like an omnipotent being implies lack of existence however i haven t met the strong atheist yet who said that nothing could ever persuade him call me a seeker if you like i don t weak atheism is being ignore here though some atheists simply say i don t believe in any god rather than my position i believe that no god s exist for the weak atheist the is no atheism to disbelieve because they don t actively believe in atheism if you think this is confusing try figuring out the difference between protestants and methodists from an atheist point of view this is another fallacy many theists seem to have that everyone believes in something followed up by everyone has faith in something guess what my atheism ends the moment i m shown a proof of some god s existence is that really too much to ask well i don t even waste my time trying well i guess you won t succeed in converting him or me why the supposition that you will fail to convince him amatuer psycology on is it because you yourself are unconvinced i tell him that he ll just have to take my word for it and i told you that i find faith to be intellectually dishonest note that i can only speak for myself if you find faith to be honest show me how i have been unable to reconcile it so far maybe that s how i m broken i tell you that i have invisible fairies living in my garden and that you should just take my word for it if you accept that you are of a fundamentally different mind than i and i really would like to know how you think all i ask for is proof of the assertion god exists logical or physical proofs only please then we ll discuss the nature of god in response he tells me he will say an atheist s prayer for me prayer uh oh we ll have to revoke his atheist club card and beanie good luck bob and best regards good luck to you as well and again i apologize if the inferences i made were inaccurate randal lee nicholas mandock catechist gt b prism gatech edu muppets and garlic toast forever max bob muir note that abbreviation of quoted pasages is not always the fault of the poster i sometimes do it in order to get a posting by the rule in inews clh
soc.religion.christian	re atheists and hell in article may geneva rutgers edu trajan cwis unomaha edu stephen mcintyre writes in article apr geneva rutgers edu trajan cwis unomaha edu stephen mcintyre writes besides i would rather spend an eternity in hell than be beside god in heaven knowing even one man would spend his eternal life being scorched for his wrongdoings this display of bravado is no bluff i ve no fear any god or his punishment that was my point if i play poker with monopoly money i can bet anything i want but i shan t go to heaven it would be against my sense of humanity and compassion for my fellow man this is exactly why christianity is missionary in nature not just out of a need to irritate the god of both testaments are one and the same and in neither is there evidence god is strictly love to the people who wrote the bible and to whom the bible is written there is evidence of love but that is a cultural bias this is a poor answer which you needn t rebut i will now pull the old bait and switch i think you should use the bible to judge man not god by that i mean if your moral intuition doesn t like what is described in the bible realize that such things are going on now i will avoid the semantic arguments about the cause of evil and ask what are you doing to fight it not you specifically but everyone including myself if i don t like the genocide in the bible what about the genocide that goes on right now to move beyond the question of a hell realize that many people right now are suffering if you think hell isn t fair and are willing to sacrifice everything just to deny its existence what about how life isn t fair right now there is a young mother with three little kids who doesn t know how she will get through the day right now there is a sixth grader who is a junkie right now there is an old man with no friends and no money to fix his tv instead of why doesn t god help them ask why don t we help them i think you are correct to challenge any christian who doesn t live his life with the compassion you seem to possess you want evidence of god find someone who is making a difference someone you admire someone who has been through some tough times and has come out with his head up ask the person how he does it ask the vietnam vet who was battle medic how he kept his mind ask the woman who was pregnant at kept the baby and now is a successful business woman ask the doctor who has operated on a pound baby they won t all be christians or even what you might call religious but there will be something in common god is not defined in the bible god is defined by what is in those people s hearts it doesn t matter if you can t give intellectual assent to any description you ve heard they re all wrong anyway the compassion you already feel in your heart is a step in the right direction follow that instead then come back and read the bible and you ll see that same thing described there if nothing else makes sense hang on to that idea that god is love i would say something similar but in reverse order love is god good i guess we only have to work on your grammar chris mussack
soc.religion.christian	re when are two people married in god s e in article may athos rutgers edu gt b prism gatech edu randal lee nicholas mandock writes i am not against capital punishment i feel this way because god is not only a god of love but a god of justice as we christians are the instruments of his will here on earth we are expected to be true to the mandate given us by the lord to judge the actions of our fellow man my favorite scriptural reference in this regard is romans let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities for there is no authority except from god and those that exist have been established by god therefore whoever resists authority opposes what god has appointed and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves my views reflect the teaching of the roman catholic church i would say only to the extent that the roman catholic church neither approves nor disapproves of capital punishment as confirmed in the recent catechism though there are many rcs who were rather surprised and upset that capital punishment was not explicitly condemned for myself as a catholic i see my own opposition to capital punishment as much the same as my opposition to abortion a reverence for life here in the uk the anti abortion case is often let down by the explicit link which those on the political left make with anti abortionists and pro executionists there is a tendency to condemn people who hold both views as hypocrites i feel that if there were many more anti abortionists who were also vocal in their opposition to capital punishment on a pro life line it would end this kneejerk association of anti abortion as a right wing thing and get many to think seriously about the issue there are plenty who are pro abortion equally for a kneejerk left wing reason i do not think your biblical quote can automatically be taken as support for capital punishment i take it that as a roman catholic you are opposed to abortion and would still onsider it wrong and something to be objected to even if legalised by authority matthew huntbach
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christiani the cited passages are covered in depth in a faq for this group that particular faq i ve forgotten the author discusses the traditional vs pro homosexual interpretations of the passages and indicates which points have strong textual support perhaps the moderator might give again the instructions for retrieving the faq on this topic btw this issue while dealt with before is very timely one of the major presbyterian churches in california st andrews a megachurch in a rich neighborhood is withholding their support of synod amounts to about of the budget of the synod which covers all of southern ca and hawaii until support for a pro homosexual lobbying group the lazarus project is terminated this came from a news report on cnn yesterday corrections welcome tim i think it s time for me to post the faq this is an issue throughout the presbyterian church on the other side one of the major churches in cincinnati has been ordaining homosexual elders and has ignored presbytery instructions not to do so and the church in rochester where the judicial commission said they couldn t install a homosexual pastor has made her an evangelist these situations as well as the one you describe do not appear to be stable this will certainly be a major topic for the general assembly next month if the church can t come up with a solution that will let people live with each other i think we re end up with a split clearly neither side wants that but i think we ll get pushed into it by actions of both sides clh
soc.religion.christian	re question about virgin mary in article may athos rutgers edu revdak netcom com d andrew kille writes just an observation although the bodily assumption has no basis in the bible carl jung declared it to be one of the most important pronouncements of the church in recent years in that it implied the inclusion of the feminine into the godhead jung may have said that but he was in no way speaking for the catholic church the dogma of the assumption in no way means mary is considered to be god or part of the godhead therefore it implies no such thing about the feminine in general also jung s statement makes it sound as though the dogma was announced out of the blue this also is incorrect as dogma is only the formulation of what has always been part of tradition this dogma has always been believed but was not formally defined until the assumption was declared as an ex cathedra statement steve creps indiana university creps lateran ucs indiana edu
soc.religion.christian	re if there were no hell in article may athos rutgers edu smayo world std com scott a mayo writes granting that i think christianity as a relationship with jesus and a love for god and one s own soul stands just fine without hell i don t believe or see any evidence in scripture that hell is presented as a stick with which to beat people towards heaven i certainly agree with the last paragraph also jesus s statements on hell can be treated as totally symbolic allegorical or as parables as was much of his other teaching there s more than enough hell here on earth that we are freed from by following jesus that the rest just doesn t mattter to me and the fact that we can be free of the hell here is the best gift god offers eternal life begins for us now and we do not wait to start partaking of the divine nature and journeying on the path to deification larry overacker llo shell com lawrence overacker shell oil company information center houston tx llo shell com
soc.religion.christian	re robin lane fox s the unauthorized version in article may athos rutgers edu iscleekk nuscc nus sg lee kok kiong james writes mpaul unl edu marxhausen paul writes my mom passed along a lengthy review she clipped regarding robin lane fox s book the unauthorized version truth and fiction in the bible i ve read the book some parts were quite typical regarding its criticism of the bible as an inaccurate historical document alt altheism etc carries typical responses but not as vociferous as a a it does give an insight into how these historian is he one i don t have any biodata on him work i ve not been able to understand appreciate some of the arguments something like it mentions certain events so it has to be after that event and so on robin lane fox is a historian and a gardener he has written several history books perhaps a recent one you might remember is the search for alexander he has also written or edited several books on gardening jim eggertj ll mit edu jim eggert
soc.religion.christian	re atheists and hell to summarize while questioning the sagacity of someone who said they would rather spend an eternity in hell than be beside god in heaven knowing even one man would spend his eternal life being scorched for his wrongdoings i described how horrible hell is and compared the above statement with jesus suffering on the cross in order to prevent people going to hell which kenneth engel challenges did this happen to jesus i don t think so not from what i heard he lived one day of suffering and died if the wages of sin is the above paragraph then jesus didn t pay for our sins did he i will wimp out and admit that i never liked the metaphor of jesus paying for our sins in the sense that many christians accept as literal the point is that god understands the suffering we go through not just intellectually like when we watch the somalians on tv but really understands he can feel our pain this fact is manifested by jesus life we can argue that someone in history might have suffered more than jesus we can think of more horrible torture than crucifixion we can think of cases of betrayal and fruitless effort leading to worse despair but the main point is that jesus is in the trenches with us he is in everyone whatever i do to the least of humanity i do to him and whatever i do for the least of humanity i do for him now to reconcile this with the existence of hell is beyond my capabilities but that wasn t my goal i d be surprised to see the moderator let this one through thankfully our moderator is surprising but i seriously want a reasonable explanation for this as i re read this i must admit that this is more of a description of my faith than an explanation but perhaps that s all i can do hopefully that s all i have to do chris mussack
soc.religion.christian	re major views of the trinity can t someone describe someone s trinity in simple declarative sentences with words that have common meaning when i need a kick butt god or when i need assurance of the reality of truth i pray to god the father when i need a friend someone to put his arm around me and cry with me i pray to jesus when i need strength or wisdom to get through a difficult situation i pray for the holy spirit i realize that the above will probably make some people cringe but what can i say i think the doctrine of the trinity is an attempt to reconcile jesus being god and being distinct from god as described in the bible i wonder if jesus had been a hindu how different the wording would be chris mussack
soc.religion.christian	re question about virgin mary in article may athos rutgers edu ddavis cass ma bull com dave davis writes since mary was free from original sin she did not exactly die at the end of her life as the dogmatic prounouncement says she was assumed into heaven the dogma of the assumption does not state whether or not mary died a physical death before being taken into heaven catholics are free to believe what they wish whether it be that she was taken still alive or after having died i lean somewhat toward the latter myself steve creps indiana university creps lateran ucs indiana edu
soc.religion.christian	re why do people become atheists in article may athos rutgers edu gt b prism gatech edu randal lee nicholas mandock writes much stuff deleted now i have a question for bob why in the world would any self respecting atheist want to subscribe to a christian news group i have a difficult enough time keeping up with it and i think i know something about the subject excuse me but what makes you think that just because he s atheist he doesn t know anything about christianity in my albeit limited experience atheists are often the ones who know more about the bible having searched it from end to end for answers i myself am a christian but that doesn t mean i consider myself more of an authority on my religion i just have a different perspective on it more biased in favor naturally it seems quite obvious why he is subscribed if i may infer from what he says he is looking for an explanation who are we to question his motives anyway at the very least although i dislike this kind of logic one could hope that he will see the light critcism will i fear not give him a very positive picture of christians bob reminds me of my roommate in order to disbelieve atheism he says he will need to be proven wrong about it well i don t even waste my time trying i tell him that he ll just have to take my word for it in response he tells me he will say an atheist s prayer for me with regard to this i guess i don t really feel sentiments of this order can be proven faith has a lot to do with it this is why those who search the bible from cover to cover for answers won t necessarily get what they re looking for of course that doesn t help anyone who doesn t already have faith what a big catch i discovered this quite recently when i ran into an agnostic looking for an explanation of my faith and i quickly discovered that i could give him nothing more than my life story and a description of my nature faith is a very personal thing any attempt to prove the facts behind it must be questioned good luck bob and best regards likewise no matter what you believe randal lee nicholas mandock catechist gt b prism gatech edu i am your clock i bind unto myself today vera noyes i am your religion the strong name of the noye midway uchicago edu i own you trinity no disclaimer what lard st patrick s breastplate is there to disclaim
soc.religion.christian	re if there were no hell in article may athos rutgers edu u mrm csc liv ac uk m r mellodew writes in article may athos rutgers edu shellgate llo uu psi com larry l overacker writes fear based religion is not a faith relationship with the one who made us all so does that mean that anyone who is a christian to avoid hell isn t really a christian at all it sounds like it to me if that s the only reason i d be inclined to doubt whether or not what they profess is christianity the relationship of faith is based upon trust fear and trust are generally incompatible if my only motivation is fear is there room for trust if so there s room for faith if fear precludes trust then there can t be faith larry overacker llo shell com lawrence overacker shell oil company information center houston tx llo shell com
soc.religion.christian	re deuterocanonicals esp sirach ddavis cass ma bull com dave davis the deutero canonical books were added much later in the church s history they do not have the same spiritual quality as the rest of scripture i do not believe the church that added these books was guided by the spirit in so doing and that is where this sort of discussion ultimately ends the apocryphal books that are in the septuagint were part of the canon used by the greek speaking churches from the inception of the church they were not added later or much later this is a common misconception the preference of the hebrew canon over the greek canon is a later innovation the church did not need to be guided to add the books since they were part of the faith once received by the apostles and passed to the church larry overacker llo shell com lawrence overacker shell oil company information center houston tx llo shell com
soc.religion.christian	re deuterocanonicals esp sirach in article may athos rutgers edu revdak netcom com d andrew kille writes dave davis ddavis cass ma bull com wrote lots deleted with which i generally agree there is no inherently defensible argument for the inclusion or exclusion of the deuterocanonical books i think everyone would agree that principles that cannot be consistently applied are not very useful as principles so if we are to exclude them not accord them the authority of scripture we would appear to require other reasons what might these reasons be lets talk about principles if we accept that god sets the standards for what ought to be included in scripture then we can ask is it authoritative is it prophetic is it authentic is it dynamic is it received collected read and used on these counts the apocrapha falls short of the glory of god to quote unger s bible dictionary on the apocrapha they abound in historical and geographical inaccuracies and anachronisms they teach doctrines which are false and foster practices which are at variance with sacred scripture they resort to literary types and display an artificiality of subject matter and styling out of keeping with sacred scripture they lack the distinctive elements which give genuine scripture their divine character such as prophetic power and poetic and religious feeling my interim conclusion is that protestant exclusion of at least one of these writings is one of those traditions of men one hears of so often they were excluded during the reformation and that appears to be the reason many people continue to exclude them but the problem with this argument lies in the assumption that the hebrew canon included the apocrapha in the first place and it wasn t until the sixteenth century that luther and co threw them out the jewish council you mentioned previously didn t accept them so the reformation protestants had good historical precedence for their actions jerome only translated the apocrapha under protest and it was literally over his dead body that it was included in the catholic canon the simple fact is that protestant exclusion roman inclusion orthodox inclusion of still other books or any other definition of a closed canon is the decision of a community of faith about what the standard collection of scripture shall be for that community they all are traditions of men whether one considers that to be a problem or not depends on which community happens to be yours and how you accept define authority within it i personally believe that the concept of a closed canon whether catholic protestant or orthodox is one that developed rather late in the history of the church and which has not served the church well how do you then view the words i warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book if anyone adds anything to them god will add to him the plagues described in this book and if anyone takes away from this book the prophecy god will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city rev surely this sets the standard and not just man made traditions it is also noteworthy to consider jesus attitude he had no argument with the pharisees over any of the ot canon john and explained to his followers on the road to emmaus that in the law prophets and psalms which referred to him the ot division of scripture luke as well as in luke taking genesis to chronicles the jewish order we would say genesis to malachi as scripture see dr lee macdonald s the formation of the christian biblical canon abingdon for a clear and faithful examination of the origins and issues of the canon i am not familiar with the book some other arguments you might like to consider are found in chapter of josh mcdowell s evidence that demands a verdict barney resson many shall run to and fro knowledge shall increase daniel
soc.religion.christian	re christianity and repeated lives in article may athos rutgers edu smayo world std com sc ott a mayo writes gerry palo writes there is nothing in christianity that precludes the idea of repeated lives on earth doesn t it say somewhere it is appointed to man once to die and then judgement i don t have a concordance here but i have some dim memory that this appears somewhere in the bible given a fairly specific context for what judgement is i d say that more or less decides the issue heb clh indeed the immediate context nasb is otherwise he would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world but now once at the consummation he has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself and inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgement so christ also having been offered once to bear the sins of many shall appear a second time not to bear sin tro those who eagerly await him the first point is that this verse is part of an even larger context the subject of which is not the destiny of the individual human soul but rather the singular nature of christ s sacrifice once and the fulfillment of the law for all of fallen mankind rudolf frieling elaborates this in detail in his christianity and reincarnation the thrust of the passage in its context is to liken the one time incarnation and sacrifice of christ for all mankind to the individual experience of the human being after death the once is repeated and emphasized and it highlights the singularity of christ s deed one thing for certain it does is to refute the claims of some that christ incarnates more than once but the comparison to the human experience die once then judgement note not the judgement but just judgement the word for judgement is krisis hebrews is the one passage most often quoted in defense of the doctrine that the bible denies reincarnation at this point i would just emphasize again that the passages that arguably speak against it are few and that invariably they are talking about something eles and the apparent denial of reincarnation is either inferred or as in the case of hebrews taken literally and deposited into an implied context namely a doctrine of the destiny of the human being after death what should be considered seriously is that the bible is essentially silent about the fate of the individual human being between death and the last day if you take the few passages that could possibly be interpreted to mean a single earth life they are arguable and there are other passages that point arguably in the other direc tion such as matthew and john we can continue to debate the individual scraps of scripture that might have a bearinig on this and indeed we should discuss them but what i wanted to introduce into the discussion was an approach to the idea of repeated earth lives that unlike hindu buddhist and new age teachings takes full cognizance of the divinity singular incarnation death burial resurrection and second coming of christ as the savior of mankind the accountability of each individual for his deeds and the reality of the fall and of sin and its consequences the redemption of man from sin through christ the resurrection of the body and the last judgement taken in this larger sense many serious questions take on an entirely different perspective e g the destiny of those who died in their sins before christ came the relationship of faith and grace to works the meaning of deathbed conversion the meaning of the sacraments and many other things not that i propose to answer all those questions by a simple doctrine of convenience but only that the discussion takes on a different dimension and in my opinion one that is truly worthy of both man the earth and their creator and redeemer there are many deep questions that continue to be deep such as the meaning of the second death and how the whole of christian doctrine would apply to this larger perspective of human existence there are those who deeply believe that the things of which the bible does not speak are not things we should be concerned with but christ also indicated that there were other things that we would come to know in the future including things that his disciples and therefore others could not bear yet this idea that the human capacity for growth in knowledge not only of the individual in one lifetime but of the whole of humanity also takes on great meaning when we realize that our growth in the spirit is a long term process the bible was not meant to codify all spiritual knowledge in one place forever but to proclaim the gospel of the incarnation and redeeming deed of christ taking the gospel in the greater context from genesis to revelation now salvation healing becomes not the end of man s sojourn but its beginning and the last judgement and the new heaven and earth that follow it become its fulfullment gerry palo compuserve com
soc.religion.christian	re divorce in article may athos rutgers edu daveshao leland stanford edu david shao writes in article may athos rutgers edu crs carson u washington edu cliff slaughterbeck writes along the way she was married happily to a wonderful and supportive husband and gave birth to two sons still everything was not perfect for jane since she could never open up the deepest part of her soul to her husband one of the interesting things that jane said in this whole discussion was homosexuality is not about what goes on in the bedroom she found that she was much more able to have a deep committed relationship with a woman than a man sex in her mind is only a part of the whole relationship it sounds like she has a problem she has a problem opening up to her husband so she is lesbian what in a marrige a couple is supposed to open up to each other because she didn t feel comfortable opening up to her husband she gets a divorce and comes to the conclusion that she is lesbian before anyone gets maried they should make sure that they would feel comfortable open up the deepest part of her soul to her husband sex in her mind is only a part of the whole relationship did she think it was diffrent with a man that might be her problem in christ s love bryan
soc.religion.christian	re the doctrine of original sin eugene bigelow writes doesn t the bible say that god is a fair god sic if this is true how can this possibly be fair to the infants andrew byler writes what do you mean fair god is just giving to everyone what they deserve as all infants are in sin from the time of conception cf romans psalm they cannot possibly merit heaven and as purgatory is for the purging of temporal punishment and venial sins it is impossible that origianl sin can be forgiven as st augustine said i did not invent original sin which the catholic faith holds from ancient time but you who deny it without a doubt are a follower of a new heresy de nuptiis lib c why is it fair to punish you me and the rest of humanity because of what adam and eve did suppose your parents committed some crime before you were born and one day the cops come to your door and throw you in jail for it would you really think that is fair i know i wouldn t
soc.religion.christian	re the doctrine of original sin joseph h buehler writes this all obviously applies equally well to infants or adults since both have souls infants must be baptized therefore or they cannot enter into heaven they too need this form of life in them or they cannot enter into heaven are you saying that baptism has nothing to do with asking jesus to come into your heart and accepting him as your savior but is just a ritual that we must go through to enable us to enter heaven
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity in article may athos rutgers edu whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu bryan whitsell writes any one who thinks that homosexuality and christianity are compatible should check out romans i corinthians i timothy jude ii peter gen lev to name a few of the verses that pertain to homosexuality anyone who thinks being gay and christianity are not compatible should check out dignity integrity more light presbyterian churches affirmation mcc churches etc meet some gay christians find out who they are pray with them discuss scripture with them and only then form your opinion dr ann b carlson a b carlson larc nasa gov o ms o nasa langley research center hampton va
soc.religion.christian	re mormon temples jwindley cheap cs utah edu jay windley writes material deleted some object to the idea that christianity should involve secrets of any kind mormon scholars have provided historical evidence of early christian practices which parallel mormon temple ceremonies obviously one can choose whether or not to subscribe to such a historical interpretation but mormon practice is not without precedent in christianity deletions i don t necessarily object to the secrecy but i do question it since i see no biblical reason why any aspect of christian worship should involve secrecy but i am interested in your claim that early christian practices parallel mormon temple ceremonies could you give an example also why do they only parallel mormon ceremonies why don t mormon ceremonies restore the original christian practices wasn t that the whole point of joseph smith s stated mission mark
soc.religion.christian	re when are two people married in god s e jblanken ccat sas upenn edu james r blankenship writes the only reason for the death penalty is revenge if you are going to try to refute a position try to refute the whole position or acknosledge that you are only speaking to small piece of the problem broad sweeping the only reason etc on as tough nut to crack as the death penalty reallly doesn t help much every year the fbi releases crime stats showing an overwhelming amount of crime is committed by repeat offenders people are killed by folks who have killed who knows how many times before how aobut folks who are for the death penalty not for revenge but to cut down on recidivism your point is well taken i acknowledge the fact that there are some who take this position sorry about that of course i still believe that the vast majority of those who favor the death penalty do so for reason of seeking vengeance i m curious if you favor the death penalty to keep killers from killing again what do you think we should do with people who commit other crimes such as rape or robbery isn t it the muslims who cut your hand off if you re caught stealing
soc.religion.christian	re why do people become atheists in article may athos rutgers edu maxwell c muir muirm argon gas organpipe uug arizona edu writes of faith if you want to know i feel that faith is intellectually dishonest i d appreciate some support for this statement i m not sure it really makes sense to me the ambiguity of religious beliefs an unwillingness to take pascal s wager i ve heard this frequently what exactly is pascal s wager do i sound broken to you i don t know you point out that your mother s treatment upset you and see inconsistencies in various religions i m not sure if that constitutes broken ness or not it certainly consititutes disillusionment filipp sapienza department of technology services university of michigan hospitals surgery fil sapienza med umich edu
soc.religion.christian	re deuterocanonicals esp sirach in may athos rutgers edu mdw uxa cso uiuc edu michael d walker writes that last paragraph just about killed me the deuterocanonicals have always been accepted as inspired scripture by the catholic church which has existed much longer than any protestant church out there it was martin luther who began hacking up the bible and deciding to remove certain books not the fact that the catholic church decided to add some much later that is the reason for the difference between catholic and protestant bibles this is misleading at best the question really has to do with the status of the greek septuagint versus hebrew scripture and the issue predates the reformation by quite a bit jerome was negative about the deuteroncanonicals and in fact even though he transalted them he put them after the hebrew canon reordered from the greek ordering to the hebrew one his translations of them were quick and dirty also he reports having done one of them in one day and another overnight just dictating his translation to an amanuensis that is to say it is the vulgate and all of its massive importance in western christianity along with the veneration of jerome which took the first steps in reducing these books from the status they had and have among the greeks furthermore it is inaccurate to say that the reformers threw out these books basically they just placed them in a secondary status as jerome had already done but with the additional warning that doctrine should not be based on citations from these alone i think that the emphasis on the hebrew originals is sound though it seems somewhat arbitrary to disallow on the face of it a translation as part of a collection whose principles of selection in hebrew or greek are confused or unknown and likely fraught with accident it also seems to play into a tendentious notion of the original languages being somehow more inspired as if magical and conveying a message untranslatable than a translation as if we could not hear god s word to the jews in greek or german or english this tendency seems to have got a big boost in sola scriptura protestantism even to the point of current inerrancy bizarreness despite the more basic underlying tendency of the reformers to see that the texts should and could be translated if we can profit from an english rendering of hebrew and greek there is surely little reason to keep sirach at least out of our bibles and of course anglicans don t do so for texts originally in greek it would seem more to be anti greek prejudice notably by the time the hebrew canon is fully attested including anti christian prejudice which led to the jewish abandonment of the septuagint which is operative btw readers may enjoy some lectures of bruce metzger on the issues of translation of the bible including some of what i said about jerome above in the current numbers of the journal bibliotheca sacra two of four have been published so far michael l siemon i say you are gods sons of the mls panix com most high all of you nevertheless or you shall die like men and fall mls ulysses att com like any prince psalm
soc.religion.christian	christian embassy in dc does anyone know about the christian embassy in washington dc what exactly does it do please respond to lisa ux lbl gov thanks
soc.religion.christian	re the doctrine of original sin in article may athos rutgers edu eugene bigelow ebay sun com geno writes nothing unclean shall enter heaven rev therefore babies are born in such a state that should they die they are cuf off from god and put in hell which is exactly the doctrine of st augustine and st thomas i haven t read this entire thread but if someone hasn t tossed this out yet then here it is samuel rsv then his servants said to him what is this thing that you have done you fasted and wept for the child while it was alive but when the child died you arose and ate food he david said while the child was still alive i fasted and wept for i said who knows whether the lord will be gracious to me that the child may live but now he is dead why should i fast can i bring him back again i shall go to him but he will not return to me anyhow many interpret this to mean that the child has gone to heaven where david will someday go i don t claim to know for sure if this applies to all babies or not but even if it s just this one what would you say to this jeff adams
soc.religion.christian	ontological argument i read somewhere that kurt goedel argued that the ontological argument for god s existence was logically reasonable or something to that effect does anyone know if this is true and have a citation thanks fred gilham gilham csl sri com peace is only better than war when it s not hell too war being hell makes sense walker percy the second coming
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity in article may athos rutgers edu whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu wrote any one who thinks that homosexuality and christianity are compatible should check out romans i corinthians i timothy jude ii peter gen lev to name a few of the verses that pertain to homosexuality in christ s love bryan whitsell like we have never heard of or read these verses before how about you read them in context taking into consideration the times and places in which they were written the local customs and pagan rituals what the surrounding verses are talking about and how they interact with the rest of the bible there are many issues in the bible that are argued and can be argued successfullly from both sides of an issue some examples that come to mind are gifts of the spirit when the rapture will occur pre or post tribulation how people should be baptized to name a few i have found nothing in scripture that condemns me or anyone else for having a monogamous relationship with the person whom i love even if we are the same sex i m sorry if i am coming across as heated it s just that the lord has been so dear to me the last several years and i m tired of hearing this same old thing from people who believe what their told rather than finding out for themselves check it out for yourself invite the holy spirit to guide you if i weren t confident of this i wouldn t invite you to do this god bless loisc
soc.religion.christian	re national repentance mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes i heard on the radio today about a christian student conference where christians were called to repent of america s national sins such as sexual promiscuity to which i reply whoa there how can i repent of someone else s sin i can t and when i claim to repent of someone else s sin am i not in fact judging him jesus equipped us to judge activities but warned us not to judge people judge not that ye be not judged c s lewis made the same point in an essay after world war ii when some christian leaders in britain were urging national repentance for the horrors sins of world war ii i see your point but i cannot more strongly disagree to repent means to turn around we as a nation have behaved incredibly arrogantly toward god condoning encouraging and even forcing folks to participate in activity directly opposed to the written word of god we have arrogantly set our nation far above the god who created it and allowed us the luxury of living in this land we have set a bad example for other nations we ve slaughtered unborn children by the millions we have stricken the name of god from the classroom we ve cheated god out of the honor due him at every turn and we owe god an apology every bit as public as our sins have been when jesus said judge not that ye be not judged he was not addressing those like john the baptist who had repented and were calling others to repent he was addressing those who remained in sin while heaping down condemnation on others for their sins his message to us all was to remove the log from our own eye before removing the speck from our brother s but he also said to rebuke and to reprove don t forget that this is a command too our problem today is that we tend to judge and condemn as though we were rebuking and we tend to neglect bringing folks back to the lord with the excuse that we don t want to judge anyone in truth what we need to do is to judge less and call others to repent more and to be able to distinguish between the two in our own motives call sin what it is and do so openly let it s charge fall correctly where it should but instead of running someone into hell over it pull them out of their hellward path and onto the heavenward path i deplore the horrible crime of child murder we want prevention not merely punishment we must reach the root of the evil it is practiced by those whose inmost souls revolt from the dreadful deed no mater what the motive love of ease or a desire to save from suffering the unborn innocent the woman is awfully guilty who commits the deed but oh thrice guilty is he who drove her to the desperation which impelled her to the crime susan b anthony the revolution july
soc.religion.christian	urbana mission conference i would like to hear from people who are thinking of going to the urbana conference in december this year i have recently received info from ifes international fellowship of evangelical students and am thinking about attending although i am still not sure whether i can afford it i would also like to hear from people involved in ifes or ivf groups just to hear how things are going on your campus are there any news groups or groups of people who already do this i am involved in the christian fellowship at the university of technology sydney in australia if you are interested to find out how we are going mail me to find out matt reimer email m reimer uts edu au
soc.religion.christian	re when are two people married in god s e in article geneva rutgers edu jenk microsoft com jen kilmer writes in article apr geneva rutgers edu mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes none of the states currently recognize same sex marriages but i know several couples whose marriages are more stable and loving and long lasting than most of my legally married friends and relatives this drives one friend s family crazy his brothers have been divorced twice both his parents are divorced and he the filthy gay has been married to his partner for years just because those marriages are more stable and loving and long lasting doesn t make it right same sex partners could have been best friends without getting sexually involved with each other gary chin staff engineer sun microsystems mt view ca gchin eng sun com
soc.religion.christian	re the doctrine of original sin if babies are not supposed to be baptised then why doesn t the bible ever say so it never comes right and says only people that know right from wrong or who are taught can be baptised this is not a very sound argument for baptising babies it assumes that if the bible doesn t say specifically that you don t need to do something then that must mean that you do need to do it i know there s a specific term for this form of logic but it escapes me right now however if it were sound then you should be able to apply it this way if the bible doesn t specifically say that something is wrong then it must be ok which coincidentally leads perfectly into a question i ve often pondered if slavery is immoral which i believe it is can i assume that everyone else in this group does too why doesn t jesus or any of the apostles speak out against it owning slaves was common practice back then paul speaks about everything else that is immoral he apparently thought it was important enough to talk about things like not being a drunkard why doesn t anyone mention slavery if god s morals are eternal and don t change like the morals of society then it must have been just as immoral then as it is today
soc.religion.christian	re mormon temples in article may athos rutgers edu brh cas org brooks haderlie writes searching out our deceased ancestors so that we can perform the ordinances such as baptism confirmation and marriage for time and eternity that are required for a person to obtain salvation through christ and to live with him through the eternities these are people who may have not had the opportunity to know christ in their lifetime so we are making it possible for christ s saving grace i know there are thousands of interpretations of that phrase to become fully effective for them if they allow it to do so on the other side this paragraph brought to mind a question how do you mormons reconcile the idea of eternal marriage with christ s statement that in the ressurection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage luke chapt david hammerslag dhammers urbana mcd mot com there ain t nobody so bad that the lord can t save em ain t nobody so good they don t need god s love mullins
soc.religion.christian	re does it matter which church in article may geneva rutgers edu gideon otago ac nz gideon king writes when the protestant reformers opposed and subsequently separated from the church of rome the battle cry of the new protesting religion was the bible the whole bible and nothing but the bible underlying that cry was a theory that if people could read the bible for themselves in their native tongue they would discover the truth about god and his purpose they would shed their old errors and be united by a common faith this idea that the reformers somehow were the first to bring the bible to the people in their own language is a myth many vernacular translations of the bible existed long before the reformation the vulgate bible which is still the official version of the bible for the catholic church was itself a translation in the common i e vulgar vulgate tongue of its day latin and had existed for about a millenium before the reformation it might also be noted that the printing press was not even invented until the same century as that in which the reformation occurred steve creps indiana university creps lateran ucs indiana edu
soc.religion.christian	re christianity and repeated lives while this is essentially a discussion of reincarnation in the context of christianity gerry palo has made some comparisons to asian religious beliefs on this topic which have simplified the asian idea of karma to the point of misrepresentation there are significant differences in the idea of karma among hindus jains buddhists and even among the various buddhist traditions to refer to karma as a system of reward for past deeds is totally incorrect in the buddhist and jain traditions karma is considered to be a moral process in which intentions either good or evil shape a person s predilections for future intention and action and produce a person who is more prone to good than evil or the opposite reward has nothing to do with it both jainism and buddhism are atheistic so there is no deity to dispense rewards or punishments karma is usually described in terms of seeds and reaping the fruit thereof in fact as you sow so shall you reap is found in the pali canon as i recall the metaphor of natural growth is explicit hinduism or some sects in that tradition are i believe much more deterministic and involve concepts closer to reward and punishment being theistically inclined in point of fact the theravadin buddhist tradition of southeast asia considers karma as only one of five influences in human life and in fact from their point of view they would be unable to explain the mechanics of karma without the element of free will also in eastern religions there is a difference between reincarnation and rebirth which is essentially absent in western considerations isn t origen usually cited as the most prestigious proponent of reincarnation among christian thinkers what were his views and how did he relate them to the christian scriptures jack carroll
soc.religion.christian	re satan and tv in article may athos rutgers edu salaris niblick ecn purdue edu rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrabbits writes mtv controls what bands are popular no matter how bad they are in fact it is better to be politically correct like u madonna than to have any musical talent steven c salaris interesting idea regular televeision seems to do this sort of thing too with politically correct shows in christ s love bryan
soc.religion.christian	re portland earthquake in article may athos rutgers edu cctr cantua canterbury ac nz bill rea writes in history seems to imply some pretty serious sin the one of the pastors in the church i attend christchurch city elim considers that a prophesy of a natural disaster as a judgement from the lord is a clear sign that the prophesy is not from the lord i would like to see his reasoning behind this you may have gotten burned by natural disaster prophecies down there but that does not mean that every natural disaster judgement prophecy is false take a quick look at the book of jeremiah and it is obvious that judgement prophecies can be valid here in the us it seems like we might have more of a problem with positive prophecies though i am sure there may be a few people who are too into judgement sometimes god does give words that are difficult to swallow the relative positiveness of a prophecy is not necesarily grounds to dismiss it much of the ot is not happy stuff link hudson
soc.religion.christian	re why do people become atheists in article may athos rutgers edu bill mayne mayne pipe cs fsu edu writes in article may athos rutgers edu bill mayne mayne pipe cs fsu edu writes in article may athos rutgers edu fil sapienza med umich edu fil sapienza writes i am interested in finding out why people become atheists after having believed in some god god in conversing with them on other groups i ve often sensed anger or hostility though i don t mean to imply that all atheists are angry or hostile it does seem to be one motivation for giving up faith thus some atheism might result from broken ness this is condescending at best and a slightly disquised ad hominem attack this attitude on the part of many theists especially the vocal ones is one reason for the hostility you sense how do you like it when atheists say that people turn to religion out of immature emotionalism i wouldn t and don t i thought i did a pretty good job of qualifying my statement but apparently some people misinterpreted my intentions i apologize for my part in communicating any confusion my intent was more to stir up discussion rather than judge it seems to have worked rest of post noted by the way i did not originally post this to alt atheism if it got there i don t know how it did filipp sapienza department of technology services university of michigan hospitals surgery fil sapienza med umich edu
soc.religion.christian	re satanic tounges in article may athos rutgers edu koberg spot colorado edu allen koberg writes there seem to be many points to the speaking in tongues thing which are problematic it s use as prayer language seems especially troubling to me i understand that when you pray in tongues the spirit is doing the talking and when you pray you pray to god and the spirit is god so the spirit is talking to himself which is why i only go by the pentecost use where it s an actual language what is wrong with the spirit talking to himself jesus intercedes for us and romans tell of how the spirit intercedes for us before god that is no theological problem tounges as a prayer language finds support in i corinthians moreover the phrase though i speak with the tongues of men and angels used by paul in i cor is misleading out of context some would then assume that there is some angelic tongue and if when they speak it is no known language then it is an angelic tongue its true that this could be and has been used as a rug to sweep any difficulties under but it is a valid point paul does mention angelic tounges in the verse hmmm in the old testament story about the tower of babel we see how god punished by giving us different language can we assume then that if angels have their own language at all that they have the same one amongst other angels after all they were not punished in any manner if the languages we sepak are the result of babel then it stands to reason that angels would speak a different language from us you do have a valid point about multiple angelic languages but angelic beings maybe of different species so to speak maybe different species communicate differently trouble is while such stories abound any and all attempts at verification and we are to test the spirit either show that the witness had no real idea of the circumstances or that outright fabrication was involved the brother puka story in a previous post seems like a friend of a friend thing and linguistically a two syllable word hardly qualifies as language inflection or no i have heard an eyewitness account myself such things are hard to prove they don t lend themselves to a laboratory thing very well i don t know if it is a very holy thing to take gifts into a laboratory anyway much as many faith healers have trouble proving their victories since most ailments cured are just plain unprovable and modern day ressurrections have never been validated so is it true that no modern day xenoglossolalia has been proved by clergy or lay that s an unprovable statement how can you prove if somethings been proved there is no way to know that you ve seen all the evidence once i saw an orthodontists records complete with photographs showing how one of his patients severe underbite was cured by constant prayer john g lakes once prayed for someone and saw them healed in a laboratory according to adventures in god its an interesting book link
soc.religion.christian	faq essay on homosexuality someone referred to my faq essay on homosexuality since it hasn t been posted for some time and i ve modified it somewhat since the last time i m taking this opportunity to post it there is another entry in the faq containing comments by some other contributors they can be retrieved from ftp rutgers edu as pub soc religion christian others homosexuality it contains far more detail on the exegetical issues than i give here though primarily from a conservative point of view this posting summarizes several issues involving homosexuality and christians this is a frequently asked question so i do not post the question each time it occurs rather this is an attempt to summarize the postings we get when we have a discussion it summarizes arguments for allowing christian homosexuality since most people asking the question already know the arguments against it the most common but not the only question dealt with herein is how can a christian justify being a homosexual given what the bible says about it first on the definition of homosexual many groups believe that there is a homosexual orientation i e a sexual attraction to members of the same sex this is distinguished from actual homosexual sexual activity homosexuals who abstain from sex are considered by most groups to be acceptable however in a lot of discussion the term homosexual means someone actually engaging in homosexual sex this is generally not accepted outside the most liberal groups in this paper i m going to use homosexual as meaning a person engaging in sexual acts with another of the same sex i haven t heard of any biblical argument against a person with homosexual orientation who remains celebate i think most people now admit that there is a predisposition to be homosexual this is often called a homosexual orientation it is not known whether it is genetic or environmental there is evidence suggesting each the best evidence i ve seen is that homosexuality is not a single phenomenon but has a number of different causes one of them is probably genetic there are several groups that try to help people move from being homosexual to heterosexual the best known is exodus international the reports i ve seen and i haven t read the detailed literature just the summary in the minority opinion to the presbyterian church s infamous report on human sexuality suggest that these programs have very low success rates and that there are questions about how real even the successes are but there certainly are people who say they have converted however this issue is not as important as it sounds those who believe homosexuality is wrong believe it is intrinsically wrong defined as such by god the fact that it s hard to get out of being a homosexual is no more relevant than the fact that it s hard to escape from being a drug addict if it s wrong it s wrong it may affect how we deal with people though if it s very difficult to change this may tend to make us more willing to forgive it one more general background issue it s common to quote a figure that of the population is homosexual i asked one of our experts where this came from here s his response kinsey see below is the source of the figure percent he defines sexuality by behavior not by orientation and ranked all persons on a scale from zero completely heterosexual to completely heterosexual according to kinsey one third of all male adults have had at least one experience of orgasm homosexually post puberty ten percent of all adult males have most of their experiences of homosexually that was in the percentages held true in a followup study done by the kinsey institute based on data in the early seventies but not published until the early s or so by bell and weinberg i believe i can t put my hand on this latter reference but here is the online information for kinsey s own study as it appears in iris the catalog at rutgers author kinsey alfred charles title sexual behavior in the human male by alfred c kinsey wardell b pomeroy and clyde e martin publisher philadelphia w b saunders co descrip xv p diagrs cm notes based on surveys made by members of the staff of indiana university and supported by the national research council s committee for research on problems of sex by means of funds contributed by the medical division of the rockefeller foundation bibliography p other aut pomeroy wardell baxter joint author martin clyde eugene joint author subjects sex u s moral conditions lc card this figure is widely used in all scholarly discussions and has even been found to hold true in several other cultures as noted in the recent newsweek coverstory is this child gay feb a journalist is running the rounds of talk shows this season promoting her book that allegedly refutes kinsey s study but the scholarly world seems to take her for a kook i ve seen some objections to the kinsey s study but not in enough detail to include here if someone would like to contribute another view i d be willing to include it most christians believe homosexuality at least genital sex is wrong not all however a few denominations accept it the metropolitan community churches is the best known it was formed specifically to accept homosexuals however the united church of christ also allows it and i think a couple of other groups may as well the episcopal church seems to accept it some areas but not others in churches that have congregational government you ll find a few congregations that accept it even among southern baptists though the number is probably only one or two congregations but these are unusual few churches permit homosexual church leaders how carefully they enforce this is another issue i don t have any doubt that there are homosexual pastors of just about every denomination some more open than others as to the arguments over the biblical and other issues here s an attempt to summarize the issues the most commonly cited reference by those favoring acceptance of homosexuality in previous discussions has been john boswell christianity social tolerance and homosexuality u chicago press the argument against is pretty clear there are several explicit laws in the ot e g leviticus and in rom paul seems pretty negative on homosexuality beyond these references there are some debates some passages often cited on the subject probably are not relevant e g the sin which the inhabitants of sodom proposed to carry out was homosexual rape not homosexual activity between consenting adults there s even some question whether it was homosexual since the entities involved were angels it was particularly horrifying because it involved guests and the responsibility towards guests in that culture was very strong this is probably the reason lot offered his daughter it was better to give up his daughter than to allow his guests to be attacked if you look through a concordance for references to sodom elsewhere in the bible you ll see that few seem to imply that homosexuality was their sin there s a jewish interpretive tradition that the major sin was abuse of guests at any rate there s no debate that homosexual rape is wrong i do not discuss leviticus because the law there is part of a set of laws that most christians do not consider binding so unless nt justification can be found lev alone would not settle the issue the nt references are all in paul s letters a number of the references from paul are lists of sins in which the words are fairly vague boswell argues that the words occuring in these lists do not mean homosexual here s what he says the two greek words that appear in the lists i e i cor and i tim are malakos and arsenokoitai unfortunately it is not entirely clear what the words actually mean malakos with a basic meaning of soft has a variety of metaphorical meanings in ethical writing boswell suggests wanton as a likely equivalent he also reports that the unanimous interpretation of the church including greek speaking christians was that in this passage it referred to masturbation a meaning that has vanished only in the th cent as that practice has come to be less frowned upon he cites references as late as the edition of the catholic encyclopedia that identify it as masturbation he translates arsenokotai as male prostitute giving evidence that none of the church fathers understood the term as referring to homosexuality in general a more technical meaning suggested by the early latin translations would be active mode homosexual male prostitute but in his view paul did not intend it so technically for a more conservative view i consulted gordon fee s commentary on i cor he cites evidence that malakos often meant effeminate however boswell warns us that in greek culture effeminate is not necessarily synonymous with homosexual though it may be associated with some kinds of homosexual behavior given what boswell and fee say taken together i suspect that the term is simply not very definite and that while it applies to homosexuals in some cases it isn t a general term for homosexuality while fee argues against boswell with arsenokotai as well he ends up suggesting a translation that seems essentially the same the big problem with it is that the word is almost never used paul s writing is the first occurence the fact that the word is clearly composed of male and f k unfortunately doesn t quite tell us the meaning since it doesn t tell us whether the male is the subject or object of the action examples of compound words formed either way can be given in theory it could refer to rapists etc it s dangerous to base meaning purely on etymology or you ll conclude that goodbye is a religious expression because it s based on god by with ye however since boswell fee and niv seem to agree on homosexual male prostitute that seems as good a guess as any note that this translation misses the strong vulgarity of the term however something which fee and boswell agree on but do not attempt to reproduce in their translation in my opinion the strongest nt reference to homosexuality is romans boswell points out that rom speaks of homosexuality as something that happened to people who were naturally heterosexual as a result of their corruption due to worshipping false gods one could argue that this is simply an example that if a homosexual worshipped false gods he would also fall into degradation and perhaps become heterosexual however i find this argument somewhat forced and in fact our homosexual readers have not seriously proposed that this is what paul meant however i am not convinced that rom is sufficient to create a law against homosexuality for christians what paul is describing in rom is not homosexuality among christians it s homosexuality that appeared among idolaters as one part of a whole package of wickedness despite the impression left by his impassioned rhetoric i m sure paul does not believe that pagans completely abandoned heterosexual sex given his description of their situation i rather assume that their heterosexual sex would also be debased and shameless so yes i do believe that this passage indicates a negative view of homosexuality but in all fairness the shameless nature of their acts is a reflection of the general spiritual state of the people and not a specific feature of homosexuality my overall view of the situation is the following i think we have enough evidence to be confident that paul disapproved of homosexuality rom seems clear while i cor and i tim are not unambiguous and general condemnations of homosexuality they do not seem like wording that would come from someone who approved of homosexuality or even considered it acceptable in some cases on the other hand none of these passages contains explicit teachings on the subject rom is really about idolatry it refers to homosexuality in passing the result of this situation is that people interpret these passages in light of their general approach to scripture for those who look to scripture for laws about issues such as this it not surprising that they would consider these passages to be nt endorsement of the ot prohibition for those whose approach to the bible is more liberal it is not surprising that they regard paul s negative view of homosexuality as something that he took from his jewish upbringing without any serious reexamination in the light of the gospel as readers of this group know by now the assumptions behind these approaches are so radically different that people tend to foam at the mouth when they see the opposing view described there s not a lot i can do as moderator about such a situation a number of discussions in the past centered around the sort of detailed exegesis of texts that is described above however in fact i m not convinced that defenders of homosexuality actually base their own beliefs on such analyses the real issue seems to rest on the question of whether paul s judgement should apply to modern homosexuality one commonly made claim is that paul had simply never faced the kinds of questions we are trying to deal with he encountered homosexuality only in contexts where most people would probably agree that it was wrong he had never faced the experience of christians who try to act straight and fail and he had never faced christians who are trying to define a christian homosexuality which fits with general christian ideals of fidelity and of seeing sexuality as a mirror of the relationship between god and man it is unfair to take paul s judgement on homosexuality among idolaters and use it to make judgements on these questions another is the following in paul s time homosexuality was associated with a number of things that christians would not find acceptable it was part of temple prostitution among private citizens it often occured between adults and children or free people and slaves i m not in a position to say that it always did but there are some reasons to think so the ancients distinguished between the active and passive partner it was considered disgraceful for a free adult to act as the passive partner this is the reason that an active mode homosexual prostitute would be considered disgraceful his customers would all be people who enjoyed the passive role this supports the idea that it would tend not to be engaged in between two free adult males at least not without some degree of scandal clearly christian homosexuals would not condone sex with children slaves or others who are not in a position to be fully responsible partners however fee s commentary on i cor cites some examples from ancient literature of homosexual relationships that do seem to involve free adults in a reasonably symmetrical way thus the considerations in this paragraph shouldn t be pushed too far homosexuality may have been discredited for jews by some of these associations but there surely must be been cases that were not prostitutes and did not involve slaves or children some people have argued that aids is a judgement against homosexuality i d like to point out that aids is transmitted by promiscuous sex both homosexual and heterosexual someone who has a homosexual relationship that meets christian criteria for marriage is not at risk for aids note that there is good reason from paul s general approach to doubt that he would concede homosexuality as a fully equal alternative apart from any specific statements on homosexuality i believe his use of the genesis story would lead him to regard heterosexual marriage as what god ordained however the way paul deals with pastoral questions provides a warning against being too quick to deal with this issue legally i claim that the question of how to counsel homosexual christians is not entirely a theological issue but also a pastoral one paul s tendency as we can see in issues such as eating meat and celebrating holidays is to be uncompromising on principle but in pastoral issues to look very carefully at the good of the people involved and to avoid insisting on perfection when it would be personally damaging for example while paul clearly believed that it was acceptable to eat meat he wanted us to avoid pushing people into doing an action about which they had personal qualms for another example paul obviously would have preferred to see people at least in some circumstances remain unmarried yet if they were unable to do so he certainly would rather see them married than in a state where they might be tempted to fornication i believe one could take a view like this even while accepting the views paul expressed in rom one may believe that homosexuality is not what god intended that it occured as a result of sin but still conclude that at times we have to live with it note that in the creation story work enters human life as a result of sin this doesn t mean that christians can stop working when we are saved the question is whether you believe that homosexuality is in itself sinful or whether you believe that it s a misfortune that is in a broad sense due to human sinfulness if you re willing to consider the latter approach then it becomes a pastoral judgement whether there is more damage caused by finding a way to live with it or trying to cure it the dangers of trying to cure it are that the attempt most often fails and when it does you end up with damage ranging from psychological damage to suicide as well as broken marriages when attempts at living as a heterosexual fail this is going to depend upon one s assessment of the inherent nature of homosexuality if you believe it is a very serious wrong then you may be willing to run high risks of serious damage to get rid of it clearly we do not generally suggest that people live with a tendency to steal or with drug addiction even though attempts to cure these conditions are also very difficult however these conditions are intrinsically damaging in a way that is not so obvious for homosexuality many problems associated with homosexuality are actually problems of promiscuity not homosexuality this includes aids i take for granted that the only sort of homosexual relationships a christian would consider allowing would be equivalent to christian heterosexual relationships in the course of discussing this over the last decade or so we ve heard a lot of personal testimony from fellow christians who are in this situation i ve also seen summaries of various research and the results of various efforts for conversion aside from the presbyterian report mentioned above there s an faq that summarizes our readers reports on this question the evidence is that long term success in changing orientation is rare enough to be on a par with healing miracles the danger in advising christians to depend upon such a change is clear when conversion doesn t happen which is almost always the people are often left in despair feeling excluded from a church that has nothing more to say but a requirement of life long celibacy paul recognized though in a different context that such a demand is not practical for most people and i think the history of clerical celibacy has strongly reinforced that judgement the practical result is that homosexuals end up in the gay sex clubs and the rest of the sordid side of homosexuality maybe homosexuality isn t god s original ideal but i can well imagine paul preferring to see people in long term committed christian relationships than promiscuity as with work which genesis suggests wasn t part of god s original ideal either i think such relationships can still be a vehicle for people sharing god s love with each other there s an issue of biblical interpretation underlying this discussion the issue is that of cultural relativism that is when paul says that something is wrong should this be taken as an eternal statement or are things wrong because of specific situations in the culture of the time conservative christians generally insist on taking prohibitions as absolute since otherwise the bible becomes subjective what is to stop us from considering everything in it as relative when looking at this issue it s worth noting that no one completely rejects the concept of cultural relativism there are a number of judgements in the new testament that even conservative christians consider to be relative the following judgements are at least as clear in the bible as anything said on homosexuality prohibition against charging interest this occurs times in the ot it s not in the nt but i mention it here because until relatively recently the church did consider it binding on christians prohibition against swearing oaths endorsement of slavery as an institution judgement of tax collectors as sinner we do not regard these items as binding in most cases i believe the argument is essentially one of cultural relativism briefly prohibition of interest is appropriate to a specific agrarian society that the bible was trying to build but not to our market economy few people believe that american judicial oaths have the same characteristics as the kind of oaths jesus was concerned about most people believe that paul was simply telling people how to live within slavery but not endorsing it as an institution for people believe that the irs is morally equivalent to roman tax farming the point i m trying to make is that before applying biblical prohibitions to the th cent we need to look at whether the th cent actions are the same when christian homosexuals say that their relationships are different than the greek homosexuality that paul would have been familiar with this is exactly the same kind of argument that is being made about judicial oaths and tax collectors until fairly recently christians prohibited taking of interest and many christians regarded slavery as divinely endorsed indeed slavery is one of the more common metaphors for the relationship between god and human beings christians are often called servants or slaves of god i am not trying to say that everything in the bible is culturally relative rather i m trying to say that some things are and therefore it is not enough to say that because something appears in the bible that ends the discussion we need to look at whether the action we re talking about now has the same moral implications as the one that the bible was talking about if christians want to argue that there are reasons to think that the prohibitions against homosexuality are still binding i m willing to listen those who claim that the question doesn t need to be looked at are kidding themselves unless they are part of the small minority who really obey all the rules listed above one thing that worries me is the great emotions that this issue creates when you consider the weakness of the biblical evidence some laws in leviticus a passage in rom whose subject matter is really idolatry rather than homosexuality and a couple of lists whose words are ambiguous the amount of concern this is raising among christians seems rather out of proportion this should suggest to people that there are reasons other than simply biblical involved this is true on both sides clearly homosexual christians are as strongly motivated to find ways of discrediting the biblical arguments as conservative christians are to find biblical arguments but i can t help feeling that the bible is being used by both sides as a way of justifying attitudes which come from other sources this is a dangerous situation for christians on the other side of the issue i would like to note some problems i have with the pro homosexual position as it is commonly presented one of the most common arguments is that homosexuality is biologically determined i e god made me homosexual and i have no choice i think god made me homosexual is a fine view for people who already believe on other grounds that homosexuality is acceptable but i don t see it as an argument for acceptability many people think that alcholism is largely biological and drug addiction may turn out to be as well that doesn t mean it s ok most of us have particular things we tend to do wrong some people get angry easily others tend to be arrogant others tend to be attraced to women who are married to someone else homosexuality if we view it as wrong wouldn t be different than any of these other things if we are going to follow god we all end up at one time or another having to work to overcome bad habits and particular temptations that cause us problems none of us can sit back and say that because god made us the way we are we can just relax as jesus said we all have to take up our cross daily this concept of dying to self which also appears throughout paul s letters seems to suggest that there are going to be things about ourselves that we we are called on not to accept paul s letters and the experience of christians throughout history show us that sin is ingrained in us and the battle against it is lifelong and difficult the fact that homosexuality is difficult to fight doesn t necessarily say it s ok maybe this isn t the place where we have to die to self but i d like to make sure that those who think it isn t are fighting the battle somewhere else and not rejecting the concept that all christians have to fight against the deeply engrained habits of sin
soc.religion.christian	baptism requires faith it troubles me that there have been so many posts recently trying to support the doctrine of original sin this is primarily a catholic doctrine with no other purpose than to defend the idea of infant baptism even among its supporters however people will stop short of saying that unbaptised infants will go to hell it s very easy for just about anyone to come up with a partial list of scripture to support any sort of wrong doctrine however if we have the heart to persevere in our beliefs to make sure that they are biblically based then we can come to an understanding of the truth let s now take a more complete look at scripture colossians in him you were also circumcised in the putting off of the sinful nature not with a circumcision done by christ having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of god who raised him from the dead in baptism we are raised to a new life in christ romans through a personal faith in the power of god our parent s faith cannot do this do infants have faith let s look at what the bible has to say about it romans but not all the israelites accepted the good news for isaiah says lord who has believed our message consequently faith comes from hearing the message and the message is heard through the word of christ so then we receive god s gift of faith to us as we hear the message of the gospel faith is a possible response to hearing god s word preached kids are not yet spiritually intellectually or emotionally mature enough to respond to god s word hence they cannot have faith and therefore cannot be raised in baptism to a new life ezekiel the soul who sins will die the son will not share the guilt of the father nor will the father share the guilt of the son the righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him if you read all of ezekiel you will see that god doesn t hold us guilty for anyone else s sins so we can have no original guilt from adam ezekiel rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committted and get a new heart and a new spirit why will you die o house of israel for i take no pleasure in the death of anyone declares the sovereign lord repent and live the way to please god is to repent and get a new heart and spirit kids cannot do this acts says that when we repent and are baptized we will then receive a new spirit the holy spirit then we shall live now then that we have a little more background as to why original sin is not biblical let s look at some of the scriptures used to support it romans therefore just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin and in this way death came to all men because all sinned sin and death entered the world when the first man sinned death came to each man because each man sinned note that it s good to read through all of romans some of the verses are easier to misunderstand than others but if we read them in context we will see that they are all saying basically the same thing let s look at one such romans for just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous through the disobedience of each individual each was made a sinner in the same way through the obedience of jesus each will be made righteous we must remember when reading through this passage that death came to each man only because each man sinned not because of guilt from adam otherwise the bible would contradict itself i encourage you to read through this whole passage on your own looking at it from this point of view to see if it doesn t all fit together psalm surely i was sinful at birth sinful from the time my mother conceived me this whole psalm is a wonderful example of how we should humble ourselves before god in repentance for sinning david himself was a man after god s own heart and wrote the psalm after committing adultry with bathsheba and murdering her husband all that david is saying here is that he can t remember a time when he wasn t sinful he is humbling himself before god by confessing his sinfulness his saying that he was sinful at birth is a hyperbole the bible being inspired by god isn t limited to a literal interpetation but also uses figures of speech as did jesus john for another example of hyperbole see luke now then even though people see that baptism requires faith and that original sin is not biblical they will still argue that infant baptism is necessary because children sin by being selfish not sharing toys with other children by being mean hitting others and fighting etc certainly we have observed children doing wrong things but my gut feeling is always that they don t know any better let s look to see if the bible agrees with my gut feelings isaiah therefore the lord himself will give you a sign the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son and will call him immanuel he will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right now just about any church leader will tell you that this is a prophecy about jesus if they don t then point them to matthew and find a new leader jesus certainly couldn t have had less knowledge than normal human babies yet this passage says that he had to mature to a certain extent before he would know the difference between right and wrong we see that he did grow and become wiser in luke and the implication is that jesus did wrong things as a child before he knew to choose right over wrong since we know that jesus was perfect without sin we have rather conclusive proof that babies cannot sin because they don t know to choose the right instead of the wrong jesus himself was baptized albeit with john s baptism not as an infant but as a thirty year old man luke and started his ministry as soon as he was baptized luke immediately afterwards he was tempted by the devil luke matthew mark thank you for your attention moderator this should finish up the subject for a while perhaps you would like to make a faq out of this response so that you can repost it from time to time when the topic comes up feel free to rearrange the contents if you would like to but please send me a copy of the final faq sincerely aaron cardenas aaronc athena mit edu i think you re overly optimistic about the authoritative quality of your response first original sin is not a catholic only doctrine it was held by luther and calvin as well and is still present in one form or another in the lutheran and reformed traditions second saying that it has no other purpose than defending infant baptism is an ad hominem argument which has considerable evidence against it the original baptist theology included original sin and some baptists still hold it and there are certainly groups that baptize infants without believing in original sin among protestants the sacraments tend to be a bit more symbolic than among catholics protestants who baptize infants see baptism as a sign of god s acceptance of us rather than our acceptance of god in traditional protestant theology god s grace precedes our response and is applicable to children there are a number of passages one can cite to indicate that god accepts even children clh
soc.religion.christian	re atheists and hell imagine the worst depth of despair you ve ever encountered or the worst physical pain you ve ever experienced some people suffer such emotional physical and mental anguish in their lives that their deaths seem to be merciful but at least the pain does end in death what if you lived a hundred such lives at the conclusion of one you were instantly reborn into another what if you lived a million a billion years in this state what if this kept going forever did this happen to jesus i don t think so not from what i heard he lived one day of suffering and died if the wages of sin is the above paragraph then jesus didn t pay for our sins did he this is something i ve always found a little curious i ve never quite understood the trinity thing on the one hand jesus is supposed to be god incarnate but at the same time he is god s son for god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son first question is if jesus was god in human form how could he really be god s son if the holy ghost planted the seed in mary so to speak then it seems that jesus relationship to god would be the equivalent to the human father son relationship while a son might inherit alot of the father s qualities he is not the father they are still two separite entities to try and say that a son is the same person as the father is obviously wrong in that case jesus and god aren t the same on the other hand if their relationship isn t the same as the human father son relationship but jesus is actually god incarnate then he s not really god s son and he never was he s just god manifesting himself as jesus at least this is how i m seeing it can someone who is more knowledgeable about the trinity enlighten us getting back to the original question what is the great price that jesus paid to redeem our sins was it dying on the cross since jesus knew that he would rise again in days and then ascend back to heaven i have a hard time seeing how this is considered paying such a great price for humanity his earthly body may have been killed but then so what he suffered a few hours of physical pain but then there has been many a human who has suffered a great deal more the fact that jesus was god s only begotten son doesn t seem to me to have much meaning since god can beget as many sons as he wants to jesus being the only one was simply a matter of choice i suspect that these questions will be very offensive to many christians on this net to those people please accept my sincere apologies it is not my intention to offend or to trivialize christ but i do believe these are legitimate questions and i am genuinely curious note that the trinity and incarnation have to be looked at together first your reading of the virgin birth is an uncommon one in this group it s dangerous to say that no one believes something you seem to be suggesting the jesus is god s son in a physical sense with the holy spirit as father and mary as mother i consider that terrible heresy though some people react less violently the virgin birth says that jesus birth is god s responsibility but it doesn t imply that god s sperm was involved indeed one though by no means the only speculation is that god used joseph s genetic material second jesus is in some sense doubly indirect from the father in a trinitarian context the term son refers to the eternal logos who is a part of god the son didn t come into existence with jesus birth jesus is the incarnation of the son so his sonness isn t specifically a result of being incarnated rather it s the son who was incarnated clh
soc.religion.christian	christianity and repeated lives there is a paragraph in the new testament which in my opinion clearly makes a positive inference to reincarnation i don t remember which one it is off of the top of my head but it basically goes like this jesus is talking with the apostles and they ask him why the pharisees say that before the messiah can come elijah must first come jesus replies that elijah has come but they did not recognize him it then says that the apostles perceived that he was refering to john the baptist this seems to me to clearly imply reincarnation this was a popular belief in the judaism of jesus time that elijah would return again as he had been taken in to heaven in a chariot and did not actually die however jesus was referring to john the baptist not in the sense that elijah was reincarnated as john remember elijah didn t die but that john was a similar prophet to elijah john was a fiery preacher he wore sackcloth and wandered rough through israel preaching the coming kingdom the verses that describe him in mark s gospel can be linked to ot references about elijah hence john was similar to elijah and jesus was drawing the parallels between the two just as he drew parallels with the suffering servant in isaiah and other messianic figures and himself a brief reply but i don t have time to look up all the relevant stuff suffice to say there is a very strong explanation rick richard johnston queen s university malone road belfast belfast northern ireland bt sb u athmail causeway qub ac uk
soc.religion.christian	re variants in the nt text cont from db n andrew cmu edu d andrew byler does anyone now where an english translation of the long recension of the acts of the apostles can be found an english translation of this can be found in the acts of the apostles translated from the codex bezae with an introduction on its lucan origin and importance j m wilson london another work that might be useful is the acts of the apostles a critical edition with introduction and notes on selected passages albert c clark oxford reprinted this is an edition of text of acts that makes the assumption that the text in codex bezae is the more authentic i don t know if it actually contains an english translation or not another useful that discusses many of the variants in detail is the theological tendency of the codex bezae cantabrigiensis in acts eldon j epp cambridge the most recent reference i found was an edition in french from the early s i can supply the reference if anyone s interested now many of the works are going to be difficult to find so if you re interested in examining the differences in the long recension an excellent and easily obtainable discussion can be found in a textual commentary on the greek nt bruce metzger united bible society metzger s book serves as a companion volume to the ubs rd edition of the greek nt it contains a discussion on the reasoning that went behind the decisions on each of the variant readings included in the ubs furthermore notes on an addition readings are included in atcotgnt the majority of these occur in acts in particular in the introduction to the section on acts metzger writes an attempt was made to set before the reader a more or less full report with an english translation of the several additions and other modifications that are attested by western witnesses since many of these have no corresponding apparatus in the text volume care was taken to supply an adequate conspectus of the evidence that supports the divergent readings p i understand that one of the early codexes vaticanus and siniaticus has this version of acts it would be interesting to know what the differences are between the long and the short forms most of the copies of the text of acts that we have including the ones in vaticanus and siniaticus adher pretty closely to the shorter or alexandrian version the longer version to which you refer is usually called the western version and its main witness is the codex bezae althought there are a few other rather fragmentary sources as far as size the difference is that in clark s edition mentioned above the book of acts contains words whereas the text edited by westcott and hort a typical alexandrian text contains words i e a difference of about to answer the obvious questions no there are no major revelations in the longer text nor major omissions in the shorter text the main difference seems to expansion of detail in the western text or if you prefer contractions in the alexandrian the western text seems to be given to more detail there are some interesting specific cases but this probably not the place to go into it in detail the discussion over the years as to which of these versions is the more authentic has been hot and heavy if there is anything approaching a modern consensus it is i that neither text represents purely the authentic version ii each variant reading has to be examined on its own merits however iii the variant in the alexandrian text is the better more often than not n
soc.religion.christian	soc religion christian after reading the posts on this newsgroup for the pasts months it has become apparent to me that this group is primarily active with liberals catholics new agers and athiests someone might think to change the name to soc religion any or perhaps even soc religion new it might seem to be more appropriate heck don t flame me i m catholic gay and i voted for bill clinton i m on your side
soc.religion.christian	virtues of purity modesty and innocence heres a nice story to help explain the virtues of purity innocence and modesty and their importance the most beautiful virtues this story is an excerpt taken from the basket of flowers by johann christoph von schmid in a certain little market town over a hundred years ago there lived an upright and intelligent man named jacob rede he was married to a most virtuous young woman and they lived happily in a humble home which was in the midst of a large beautiful val ley after living many happy years together jacob s wife died leaving him alone with only one friend his daughter mary even as a child mary was uncommonly pretty but as she grew in years her piety her innocence her modesty and her unfeigned kindne ss towards all she came in contact with gave to her beauty a rare and peculiar charm her face was lighted up with a look of such indescribable goodness that it seemed almost as though one looked upon an angel mary s greatest delight was the beautiful garden and her favour ite flowers were the violet the lily and the rose jacob loved to point to them as emblems of the virtues most becoming to her gender when she once early in march brought the first violet to him and joyfully called upon him to admire it he said let the modest violet my dear mary be to you an image of humil ity and of the benevolence that does good in secret it clothes itself in the tender colours of modesty it prefers to bloom in retired grots it fills the air with its fragrance while remain ing hidden beneath the leaves may you also my dear mary be like the retiring violet avoiding vain display not seeking to attract the public eye but preferring ever to do good in quietude and peace one morning when the roses and lilies were in full bloom and the garden appeared in its richest array jacob said to his daughter as he pointed out a beautiful lily which was beaming in the morning sun let the lily my dear child be to you the emblem of purity look how beautiful how pure and fair it is the whi test linen is as nothing compared with the purity of its petals they are like the snow happy the maiden whose heart is as pure and as free from stain but the purest of all colours is also the hardest to preserve pure easily is the petal of the lily soiled touch it but carelessly or roughly and a stain is left behind in the same way a word or a thought may stain the purity of innocence then pointing to a rose he said let the rose my dear mary be to you an emblem of modesty more beautiful than the colour of the rose is the blush that rises to the cheek of a modest girl it is a sign that she is still pure of heart and innocent in thought happy is the maiden whom the suggestion of a thought that is indelicate will cause to blush as she is thus put on her guard against the approach of danger the cheeks which readily blush will remain for a long time with their roseate hue while those which fail to blush at the least indelicacy of thought will soon become pale and wan and go before their time to the grave among the many fruit trees that adorned the garden there was one that was prized above all the others it was an apple tree not much larger than a rose bush and stood by itself in the middle of the garden mary s father had planted it the day that she was born and every year it bore a number of beautiful apples once it blossomed earlier than usual and with unusual luxuriance the tree was one mass of blossom mary was so delighted with it that she went every morning as soon as she was dressed to look at it once when it was in full bloom she called to her father and said look father how beautiful was there ever such a lovely mingling of red and white the whole tree looks like one huge bunch of flowers the next morning she hastened into the garden to feast her eyes once more upon the tree but what was her grief to see that the frost had nipped it and destroyed all its flowers they were all become brown and yellow and when the sun came forth in its strength they withered and fell to the ground mary wept bitter tears at the sight then said the father thus does sinful pleasure destroy the bloom of youth oh my child never cease to remember how dreadful it is to be seduced from the path of right behold in the example of the apple tree an image of what would happen if you were to wander from the way if the hopes your conduct hitherto has raised in my heart should vanish not merely for a day or year but for life ah then how much more bitter would be the tears which i would shed over your lapse from virtue than those which now course down your cheeks life would have no joys for me with tears in my eyes i should go down sorrowfully to my grave as he spoke the tears stood in his eyes mary was deeply moved and the words he uttered made so profound an impression upon her mind that she never forgot them under the eyes of a father so loving and wise and amid the flowers of her garden mary grew daily in stature and intelli gence blooming as a rose pure as a lily and retiring as a violet and as full of promise as a tree laden with blossom happy was the old man at all times to behold how plenteously the fruits of his garden rewarded his diligent toil but with how much more happiness and content did he mark the gracious effect produced upon the heart and mind of his beloved daughter by his pious teaching and example jacob plucked several roses and lilies tied them together in a bunch and gave them to mary with the words the lily and the rose sister flowers as they are belong the one to the other both incomparable in their beauty they are ren dered still more lovely by being together in the same way my dear child are innocence and modesty twin sisters of virtue and cannot be separated the greatest and most powerful guardian of purity is the thought of the presence of god internet simon giaeb cc monash edu au viva cristo rey long live christ the king
soc.religion.christian	hate the sin hate the sin but love the sinner i ve heard that quite a bit recently often in the context of discussions about christianity and homosexuality but the context really isn t that important my question is whether that statement is consistent with christianity i would think not hate begets more hate never love consider some sin i ll leave it unnamed since i don t want this to digress into an argument as to whether or not something is a sin now lets apply our hate the sin philosophy and see what happens if we truly hate the sin then the more we see it the stronger our hatred of it will become eventually this hate becomes so strong that we become disgusted with the sinner and eventually come to hate the sinner in addition our hatred of the sin often causes us to say and do things which are taken personally by the sinner who often does not even believe what they are doing is a sin after enough of this the sinner begins to hate us they certainly don t love us for our constant criticism of their behavior hate builds up and drives people away from god this certainly cannot be a good way to build love in the summary of the law christ commands us to love god and to love our neighbors he doesn t say anything about hate in fact if anything he commands us to save our criticisms for ourselves so how are christians supposed to deal with the sin of others i suppose that there is only one way to deal with sin either in others or ourselves through prayer we need to ask god to help us with our own sin and to help those we love with theirs only love can conquer sin hatred has no place the best way to love someone is to pray for them scott this is my signature there are many like it but this one is mine scott holt internet scott prism gatech edu georgia tech uucp gatech prism scott office of information technology technical services
soc.religion.christian	daily verse this is what the lord almighty says you who now hear these words spoken by the prophets who were there when the foundation was laid for the house of the lord almighty let your hands be strong so that the temple may be built zechariah
soc.religion.christian	christianity in crisis by hank hanegraaff has anyone read this important book if so what are your feelings about it frank if one wished to contend with him he could not answer him one time out of a thousand job
soc.religion.christian	re mormon beliefs about bastards erh tesla njit edu writes could anyone enlighten me on how the mormon church views children born out of wedlock in particular i m interested to know if any stigma is attached to the children as opposed to the parents all children are born pure i e without sin however most saints would view a pregnancy outside of marriage as an occasion of mourning some church members would be much more judgmental but that is their problem in situations where welfare assistance is provided through our church bishops usually require that the family be making some effort to live the gospel standards and provide for themselves however there are occasions when assistance is provided because of the children in the home as a former bishop of mine said children are always worthy before god i m especially keen to learn if there is or is not any prohibition in the mormon faith on bastards entering heaven or having their names entered in the big genealogical book the mormons keep in salt lake city i am not sure what you mean by the term bastards in this context latter day saints believe that through the temple ordinances the family unit may be preserved in eternity if you use genealogical material or software produced by the church you may notice a section for temple ordinances within that section there should be a spot for signifying bic which stands for born in the covenant the children born to couple sealed married within the temple are born in the covenant and are eligible to be part of that eternal family unit children born to other couples whether in a civil marriage or not would have to be sealed to their parents after their marriage is solemnized for eternity supposing a child were born to a woman out of wedlock he or she could be sealed to his or her parents at a later date or adopted into any eternal family unit which may include one of the birth parents if this is an issue on which the official position has changed over time i m interested in learning both old and new beliefs e mail or posting is fine all information or pointers are appreciated i can t say if this principle of adoption was revealed at the same time as the sealing ordinances but it has been accepted for the years i have been in the church i would tend to discount any admonitions from the church authorities against having children out of wedlock because even though there are provisions within the lord s plan to recover what we have done wrong the church does not want to give anyone the impression we can sin and repent at our leisure a idler
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity in article athos rutgers edu mls panix com michael siemon writes in may athos rutgers edu whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu bryan whitsell writes homosexual christians have indeed checked out these verses some of them are used against us only through incredibly perverse interpretations others simply do not address the issues you would seem to be more in need of a careful and spirit led course in exegesis than most of the gay christians i know i suggest that you stop proof texting about things you know nothing about let me say that the life death and resurrection of jesus christ is central to christianity if you personally believe that jesus christ died for you you are a part of the christian body of believers we are all still human we don t know it all but homosexual or heterosexual we all strive to follow jesus the world is dying and needs to hear about jesus christ are you working together with other christians to spread the gospel gary chin staff engineer sun microsystems mt view ca gchin eng sun com
soc.religion.christian	re deuterocanicals eps sirach thanks for the responses so far i hope that i have sparked some thought which is more my intent than to restart one of the reformations i m just going to tug on two threads in message id may athos rutgers edu db n andrew cmu edu d andrew byler writes and i must point out that the jews only drew up their canon in ad years after the founding of the christian religion upon the cross why should we adhere to a canon that was drawn up by the faithless in reaction to the chrsitian use of the greek septuagint which includes the deutero canon i was simply observing that as a non jew i am not in that community which might be bound by such a decision i don t know much about the council of jamnia but i have heard that it is not well attested historically faithless has nothing to do with it and i prefer not to speculate about motives as early as ad st justin had already accused the jews of mutilating the canon of scripture by their removal of certain books i wish the dialogue with trypho were a real transcript of a real dialogue but i think it a fictional effect on justin s part putting that to one side justin s point may be evidential one would want to know which books protestants apparently prefer to think that god s revelation was limited by a decree of the jews perhaps the reformers were traveling in all the light ms evidence they had let s stick to the issues again i prefer not to speculate about motives one would need quotes from luther calvin etc to evidence this preference in message id may athos rutgers edu wagner grace math uh edu david wagner that is not quite accurate otherwise we would have the book of enoch in the canon as dave noted one can say that the apocrypha are not quoted by christ is this the principle any bc text not quoted by christ cannot be counted as scripture think well about this job ruth i wrote these is a logically invalid a priori besides we are talking about ot texts which in many parts are superceded by the nt in the xtian view would not this same principle exclude ecclesiastes this principle cannot be consistently applied dave w answers i have to reject your argument here the spirit speaks with one voice and he does not contradict himself meaning what do you affirm the principle that the d c s can be excluded since they contain false doctrine or do you deny it if affirmed as is implied in your statement how does one determine that doctrine x is false do you affirm every teaching in ecclesiastes the ultimate test of canonicity is whether the words are inspired by the spirit i e god breathed it is a test which is more guided by faith than by reason or logic if so it may be a test that cannot be applied the orthodox faithfully believe that psalm is canonical how can my faith say not all i hear here is the a priori i mentioned before the deutero canonical books were added much later in the church s history this is contrary to fact they do not have the same spiritual quality as the rest of scripture can this be elevated to a principle how is spiritual quality measured i ll take the spiritual quality of most of sirach over joshua or chronicles any day i do not believe the church that added these books was guided by the spirit in so doing what can i say you believe what you believe i m asking for a consistency check i don t see that the books were added in any construction this formulation begs the question no one can validly ask me to have faith that these books are noncanonical dave davis ddavis ma bull com these are my opinions activities alone qotd christianity is not a doctrine not i mean a theory about what has happened and will happen to the human soul but a description of something that actually takes place in a human life for consciousness of sin is a real event and so are despair and salvation through faith those who speak of such things bunyan for instance are simply describing what has happened to them whatever anyone may want to say about it ludwig wittgenstein
soc.religion.christian	re legal definition of religion e p unl edu edgar pearlstein writes it s my understanding that the u s supreme court has never given a legal definition of religion this despite the many cases involving religion that have come before the court can anyone verify or falsify this has any state or other government tried to give a legal definition of religion according to the legal practices of today s america i imagine the legal definition of religion if defined may resemble the following any system of belief or practice to which people are committed for the benefit of society which must in the opinion of secular thought be isolated from political and educational influence should any system of belief or practice to which people are committed be harmful or void of any benefit to society in the opinion of religious thought as defined in the previous paragraph isolation of such from political and educational influence would constitute unreasonable censorship and an unlawful violation of civil rights someday perhaps they ll legalize benevolence
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity in article may athos rutgers edu mls panix com michael siemon writes romans i corinthians i timothy jude ii peter gen lev to name a few of the verses that pertain to homosexuality homosexual christians have indeed checked out these verses some of them are used against us only through incredibly perverse interpretations others simply do not address the issues you would seem to be more in need of a careful and spirit led course in exegesis than most of the gay christians i know i suggest that you stop proof texting about things you know nothing about michael well michael i don t know if clh has left them in the faq maybe you should post the how to get there map again but i posted two or three lengthy exegetical paper on these verses they looked at the ot nt and intertestimental usages of terms in reference i would suggest you read those before you talk about a need in exegetical studies if those aren t enough i could also provide the source and nt meaning of apsevokoitai dr james deyoung published it in the masters seminary journal in fall of to read any of these papers shows that the shoe is on the other foot as far as a need for honest exegesis again please refer to the faq file or if you are unable to acess it drop me a line and i will enclose them to you rexlex fnal fnal gov they re in a separate file which i gave a pointer to in my posting yesterday clh
soc.religion.christian	re what was the immaculate conception in article may geneva rutgers edu joe moore writes speaking of the immaculate conception of the blessed virgin it was a gift from god i think basically the reasoning was that the tradition in the church held that mary was also without sin as was jesus yes for examples of this in the writings of the early fathers consider you alone and your mother are more beautiful than any others for there is no blemish in you nor any stains upon your mother who of my children can compare in beauty to these st ephrem the syrian nisibene hymns around a d lift me up not from sara but from mary a virgin not only undefiled but a virgin whom grace has made inviolate free of every stain of sin st ambrose commentary on psalm ca a d there are many others as the tenets of faith developed particularly with augustine sin was more and more equated with sex and thus mary was assumed to be a virgin for life since she never sinned and since she was the spouse of god etc no we have for instance was there ever anyone of any breeding who dared to speak the name of holy mary and being questioned did not immediately add the virgin and to holy mary virgin is invariably added for that holy woman remains undefiled st epiphanus of salamis panacea against all heresies between a d we surely cannot deny that you were right in correcting the doctrine about children of mary for the lord jesus would not have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had judged that she would be so incontinent as to taint the birthplace of the body of the lord home of the eternal king with the seed of human intercourse anyone who proposes this is merely proposing that christ could not be born of a virgin pope st siricius letter to anysius bishop of thessalonica a d note that st augustine s conversion to christianity was in a d i don t know offhand when his election as bishop of hippo was but i m quite sure it was after the belief in mary s perpetual virginity originated long before augustine s time we hold that it originated with the apostles strictly speaking however mary s perpetual virginity is independent of her immaculate conception mary could have been immaculately conceived and not remained a virgin she could have remained a virgin and not been immaculately conceived since we also had this notion of original sin ie that man is born with a predisposition to sin and since mary did not have this predisposition because she did not ever sin she didn t have original sin when science discovered the process of conception the next step was to assume that mary was conceived without original sin the immaculate conception no it has been held in the church since ancient times that original sin was transmitted at conception when a person s life begins biology had nothing to do with it prayerfully reflecting on the truth of mary s sinlessness and the means by which god could have achieved this the church arrived at the truth of the immaculate conception thus the immaculate conception is not a new doctrine but the logical result of our understanding of two old ones the celebration of the feast of the immaculate conception itself was given by pope sixtus iv and the feast was made a precept feast of the church by pope clement xi mary at that time appeared to a girl named bernadette at lourdes she refered to herself as the immaculate conception since a nine year old would have no way of knowing about the doctrine the apparition was deemed to be true and it sealed the case for the doctrine no first of all lourdes is private revelation and doctrine is not based on private revelation the most that private revelation can do is enhance and deepen our understanding of existing public revelation which ended with the death of st john the apostle second the case for the doctrine was irreformably sealed in with the ex cathedra promulgation of the bull ineffabilis deus by pope pius ix this meant that the doctrine was formally recognized as a dogma a dogma by definition cannot change and is required to be believed by the faithful the apparition at lourdes happened in four years later the most that might be claimed is that lourdes gave the infallible proclamation of a sort of heavenly stamp of approval but the church has never claimed that nor shall she in christ s peace brad kaiser bradk isdgsm eurpd csg mot com those who trust in him shall understand truth and the faithful shall abide with him in love because grace and mercy are with his holy ones and his care is with his elect wis nab
soc.religion.christian	re the doctrine of original sin in article may athos rutgers edu muddmj wkuvx bitnet writes therefore until someone is capable of comprehending god s laws they are not accountable for living them they are in the book of life and are not removed until they can make a conscious decision to disobey god a idler if babies are not supposed to be baptised then why doesn t the bible ever say so it never comes right and says only people that know right from wrong or who are taught can be baptised what christ did say was i solemly assure you no one can enter god s kingdom without being born of water and spirit do not be surprised that i tell you you must all be begotten from above could this be because everyone is born with original sin mike do we attach some meaning of the israelites entering the promised land to christianity i submit god did not hold the children responsible when the adults chose to follow the bad report of the spies over joshua and caleb this is recorded for us in deuteronomy moreover your little ones which ye said should be a prey and your children which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil they shall go in thither and unto them will i give it and they shall possess it at least to me it seems there was is an age or point in maturity where they were are held responsible and could not enter the promised land younger ones were not held to the same rules at least not by god answer not a fool according to his folly lest thou also be like unto him answer a fool according to his folly lest he be wise in his own conceit proverbs
soc.religion.christian	re what was the immaculate conception joe buehler writes there are various explanations for her reaction to the angel s greeting one is that she grasped what the angel was getting at that she was to be the mother of the messiah and knew what this entailed all the suffering this gave her a moment s pause a priest i know gave me an interesting explanation he said that the words of mary point not to doubt or troubled thoughts but rather to complete humbleness those who are humble and do not revel in themselves frequently are confused when given high praise about themselves as mary would rightly be
soc.religion.christian	definition of christianity i have enrolled in the history of christianity at a college here in st louis the teacher of the class is what i consider to be closed minded and bigotted on the subject of what the definition of christianity is his definition is tied directly to that of the trinity and the catholic church s definition of it and belief in jesus christ is not sufficient to call one s self a christian while his saying it doesn t make it so i nevertheless feel insulted or am i just neurotic i would like to be able to respond to him with some sense of literacy while maintaining an amiable student teacher relationship so is there common definition of what christianity is as the previous discussion of the trinity did not lend itself to an exchange of flames i am hopeful that this will also not produce major flames regards larry autry silicon graphics st louis autry sgi com often we get into discussions about who is christian unfortunately there are a number of possible definitions starting from the broadest commonly used definitions are a historical definition people who accept christ as lord and savior a broad doctrinal definition narrow doctrinal definitions by a historical definition i mean the sort of definition a secular historian would likely use this would include any group that developed out of the christian church and continues within the same broad culture e g some unitarians would fail just about any doctrinal test you could come up with yet it s clear that that group developed from christianity and people from very different backgrounds e g hindus would likely see them as part of christianity this is not a definition most christians like but it s relevant in some political and ethnic contexts accepting christ as lord and savior is a test used by many christian groups for membership e g the southern baptists and presbyterian church usa i would qualify it by saying that what most people have in mind is an exclusive commitment to christ so that someone who accepted christ as one of many gods would not fit it s an attempt to formulate a criterion that is religious but is not based on technical doctrine by this definition groups such as arians would be viewed as heretical christians but still christians in the modern context this would include mormons jw s and oneness pentecostals they would be viewed as heretical christians but still christian in practice i believe just about everyone who falls into this category would accept the apostle s creed the next level is an attempt to give a broad doctrinal definition which includes all of the major strands of christianity but excludes groups that are felt to be outside historic christianity this is of course a slippery enterprise since catholics could argue that protestants are outside historic christianity etc but i think the most commonly accepted definition would be based on something like the nicene creed and the formula of chalcedon the attempt is to characterize doctrines that all major strands of christianity agree are key obviously this is to some extent a matter of judgement a mormon will regard the lds church as a major strand and thus will not want to include anything that contradicts their beliefs but i think this definition would have fairly broad acceptance finally some people use definitions that i would say are limited to a specific christian tradition e g some evangelicals only consider someone christian if he has had an evangelical style conversion experience and some i ve even heard of groups that limit it to their specific church i think you can find contexts where each of these definitions is used a lot is going to depend upon the purpose you re using it for if you re using it descriptively e g in history or anthropology you ll probably use definition or if you re using it normatively i e to say what you believe the christian message is you ll probably use a definition like or even clh
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity muirm argon gas organpipe uug arizona edu maxwell c muir writes in the nt the clear references are all from paul s letters in rom there is a passage that presupposes that homosexuality is an evil note that the passage isn t about homosexuality it s about idolatry homosexuality is visited on people as a punishment or at least result of idolatry there are a number of arguments over this passage it does not use the word homosexuality and it is referring to people who are by nature heterosexual practicing homosexuality so it s not what i d call an explicit teaching against all homosexuality that s like saying that murder is only wrong for those of us who aren t natural murders and stealing is only wrong for those of us who aren t natural thieves will dallas cowboys world champions
soc.religion.christian	re satan kicked out of heaven biblical in article may athos rutgers edu mdw uxa cso uiuc edu michael d walker writes easteee wkuvx bitnet writes i have a question about satan i was taught a long time ago that satan was really an angel of god and was kicked out of heaven because he challenged god s authority the problem is i cannot find this in the bible is it in the bible if not where did it originate the quick answer revelation and as someone mentioned earlier from the apocryphal book of enoch satan was apparently kicked out for three times asserting his own will i will hmmm pro choice looks kinda creepy here then there are the references around the bible about taking a third of the angels getting a third of the heavens or something
soc.religion.christian	a few questions i am writing a paper on religion and how it reflects and or affects modern music this brief questionaire is summary of the questions i would like answered a response is requested and can be mailed to me directly at gtd a prism gatech edu please mail do not post thanks in advance matt kressel how do you feel about groups like diecide slayer and dio who freely admit to practicing satanism and preach it in their songs how do you feel about groups like petra old stryper whitecross and holy soldier who promote and sing about cristianity how do you feel about groups like front xtc revolting cocks minor threat and ministry who condone and sing about atheism how do you feel about bands like shelter who preach the hare krishna religion and other minority but not unheard of religions a do you feel there is any difference between promoting music that supports cristianity and music that condones satanism b why do you feel this way what types of music do you listen to a how often do you purchase music b how often does that music contain lyrics with undertones in religion a do you feel that music one listens to affects the way one views a particular religion religion in general b how does it affect the way you view your religion all religions feel free to add any comments here matthew owen kressel gtd a prism gatech edu nothing settles a man s mind more wonderfully than the knowledge that he will be hanged in the morning arthur c clarke
soc.religion.christian	re why do people become atheists in article may athos rutgers edu biz soil princeton edu writes who is the atheist s prayer being said to my roommate the atheist says to anyone out there who might be listening randal lee nicholas mandock catechist gt b prism gatech edu
soc.religion.christian	re homosexual issues in christianity in response to alleged circular reasoning concerning the morality of homosexuality clh poses the following challenge in order to break the circle there s got to be some other reason to think homosexuality is wrong i answer the circle is simple to break the church teaches that homosexual behavior is immoral this teaching is raw impassionate unassailable dogma that closes the argument for me randal lee nicholas mandock catechist gt b prism gatech edu right i understand that people have other reasons for not accepting homosexuality the point i was making was that the specific argument given wouldn t stand on its own clh
soc.religion.christian	re the doctrine of original sin eugene bigelow ebay sun com geno writes joseph h buehler writes this all obviously applies equally well to infants or adults since both have souls infants must be baptized therefore or they cannot enter into heaven they too need this form of life in them or they cannot enter into heaven are you saying that baptism has nothing to do with asking jesus to come into your heart and accepting him as your savior but is just a ritual that we must go through to enable us to enter heaven my feeling on baptism is this parents baptize their baby so that the baby has the sanctifying grace of baptism and thus removal of original sin on its soul in the event of an unexpected death that is the parents speak on behalf of the child which is too young to speak on its own this should not surprise anyone don t parents always do what they believe is the best for their baby why would that apply to the baby s physical needs only but not his her spiritual needs to have god s grace the purpose of confirmation is for the baby now young adult to decide to re affirm for himself herself the promises that his her parents made at baptism that is where accepting jesus into your heart comes in in baptism the parents ask jesus to come into their baby s heart at confirmation the child repeats that request independently by the way these are my personal feelings though i believe they are pretty close to what the doctrinal position of the catholic church on this issue can anyone out there back me up or correct me
soc.religion.christian	re mary s assumption mpaul unl edu marxhausen paul writes i hate to sound flippant having shot off my mouth badly on the net before but i m afraid that much of this material only adds to my feeling that the assumption of mary would be better phrased our assumptions about mary in all the time i ve been reading about mary on this group i can not recall reading much about mary that did not sound like wishful veneration with scant if any scriptural foundation i find in the new testament a very real portrait of christ s parents as compellingly human persons to be honored and admired for their humility and submission to god s working beyond doubt but the almalga mation of theories and dogma that has accreted around them gives me an image of alien and inhuman creatures untouched by sin or human desire only christ himself was so truly sanctified and even he knew temptation albeit without submitting to it i also don t see the necessity of saying the holy parents were some how sanctified beyond normal humanity it sounds like our own inability to grasp the immensity of god s grace in being incarnated through an or dinary human being i won t start yelling about how people are worshipping mary etc since folks have told me otherwise about that but i do think we lose part of the wonder of god s incarnation in christ when we make his parents out to be sinless sexless deathless otherworldly beings paul marxhausen paul you did a wonderful job of not doing anything humany possible to offend us catholics hopefully i can be just as careful in my wording as you were i also don t want to extend this topic into an entire major issue of debate anymore than it already is but just a note or two please don t talk about jesus parents the doctrinal positions of the church an unequivocally different regarding mary and joseph i personally have never heard of anything being attributed to st joseph other than his sainthood that is no reference ever to him being sinless assumed into heaven immaculately conceived etc all these ideas apply only to mary i would agree there is very little scriptural evidence for our doctrines about mary needless to say that presents a significant problem to those who accept the bible as the only source of doctrine if however one turns to the sacred traditions of the undivided christian church there is no problem finding plently of evidence that it was basically a unanimous belief among the apostles and all the early generation that mary was assumed into heaven body and soul etc etc it wasn t until the reformation that these doctrines were called into question as far as i am concerned again my personaly feelings if it s a choice between the apostles or luther i ll choose the apostles every time whether or not it is recorded within the writings that the traditions of men have determined to be the bible like a said just a couple of notes as is often said i believe that we must agree to politely disagree may god s peace and blessings be with you always in your search to discover his absolute truth mike walker mdw uxa cso uiuc edu univ of illinois
soc.religion.christian	new thought on deuterocanonicals often times most recently on this list in the last few days i ve heard the passage from revelation whoever adds to the sacred words of this book whoever removes words from this book used as an arguement against the deutercanonical books i feel this is ridiculous for two reasons they weren t added later by the catholic church they were always part of what was considered inspired scripture this has been dealt with in previous postings no reason to repeat the info it is more likely than not that when st john or whomever wrote the book of revelation what was then considered scripture was not the same thing you and i are holding in our hands if one takes the translation of this book in rev or somewhere around there to mean all of scripture then all of us are likely holding something that is in violation of this command it is impossible to exactly date the scriptures even the n t ones they didn t like to date their letters i guess i really wish i had my bible with me right now to get the facts straight but i believe that several of the n t letters chief among them peter have their most likely date of composition in the early second century a d revelation was almost certainly written durin the reign of domition sp a d thus it could be argues that we are all in sin if we accept peter as scripture since it was added to the book after the composition of revelation when we are told to add nothing more if you want to get the exact dates get a copy of the new american bible i ll try to follow this up tomorrow if i remember mike walker mdw uxa cso uiuc edu univ of illinois
soc.religion.christian	on capital punishment in article may athos rutgers edu mmh dcs qmw ac uk matthew huntbach writes i would say only to the extent that the roman catholic church neither approves nor disapproves of capital punishment as confirmed in the recent catechism though there are many rcs who were rather surprised and upset that capital punishment was not explicitly condemned i quote from the journal days in the church and in the world no p regarding the new draft of the universal catechism in procuring the common good of society the need could arise that the aggressor be placed in the position where he cannot cause harm by virtue of this the right and obligation of public authorities to punish with proportionate penalties including the death penalty is acknowledged for similar reasons legimate authorities have the right to impede aggressors in society with the use of arms the church s traditional teaching has always been expressed and will continue to be expressed in the consideration of the real conditions of common good and the effective means for preserving public order and personal safety to the degree that means other than the death penalty and military operations are sufficient to keep the peace then these non violent provisions are to be preferred because they are more in proportion and in keeping with the final goal of protection of peace and human dignity as is clearly shown by this excerpt the church s teaching on capital punishment remains today as it has always been in the past in total accord with my sentiment that i do not disagree with the use of deadly force in those cases for which this option is justifiable i do not think your biblical quote can automatically be taken as support for capital punishment i take it that as a roman catholic you are opposed to abortion and would still onsider it wrong and something to be objected to even if legalised by authority i seek to conform my will to the will of god as expounded by his instrument of the visible church here on earth whenever the question of faith or morals arises randal lee nicholas mandock catechist gt b prism gatech edu
soc.religion.christian	re the bible available in every language was re satanic tounges in article may athos rutgers edu bjorn b larsen delab sintef no writes in article may athos rutgers edu koberg spot colorado edu allen koberg writes the concept of tongues as used at pentecost seems an outdated concept now with the bible available in nearly every language and missionaries who are out there in all languages why does the church need tongues i guess there are at least some people who are not able to support this claim there are still a lot of languages without the bible or a part of the bible there are still many languages which we are not able to write simply because the written version of the language has not yet been defined yes i suppose that s true of course notice i qualified with nearly every language and there are missionaries out there who can speak every imaginable language and dialect but then the fact that not all languages have a written gospel lends no credence to the concept of pentecost type xenoglossolalia since most tongues occur not in these places of un written language but rather in churches full of people who do have a written language and a bible in that language but i nitpick
soc.religion.christian	the bible on the immaculate conception andy byler writes on the biblical basis for the dogma of the immaculate conception i will put enmity between you the serpent and the woman and between your seed and her seed she can also be read he shall crush your head and you shall bruise her or his heel genesis he who commits sin is of the devil john hail full of grace greek kecharitomene the lord is with thee luke in the hebrew of genesis the gender is clearly masculine he shall crush your head and you shall bruise his heel the latin has feminine forms only by an accident of grammar andrew stated that kecharitomene means not just full of grace but having a plenitude or perfection of grace the word is used elsewhere in the new testament only in ephesians unto the praise of the glory of his grace in which he hath graced us in his beloved son rheims douay translation i cannot find any indication in my dictionary that the verb implies anything as strong as andrew suggests nor does the ephesians passage suggest that the verb means to preserve from any taint of original or actual sin from the first moment of existence i should like to see a comment on the meaning of the verb preferably not from s writer who is discussing luke at the moment yours james kiefer
soc.religion.christian	two nits picked gerry palo writes between adam and eve and golgotha the whole process of the fall of man occurred this involved a gradual dimming of consciousness of the spiritual world this is discernable in the world outlooks of different peoples through history the greek for example could say better a beggar in the land of the living than a king in the land of the dead iliad i think i would not swear that nothing of the sort is found in the iliad but the first passage i thought of was the odyssey or thereabouts my copy has no line numbers the ghost of acchilles speaks robert fitzgerald translation better i say to break sod as a farm hand for some poor country man on iron rations than lord it over all the exhausted dead the next passage i thought of was from ecclesiastes a living dog is better than a dead lion on the other hand there is one notion firmly embedded in christianity that originated most definitely in a pagan source the idea that the human being consists essentially of soul only and that the soul is created at birth was consciously adopted from aristotle whose ideas dominated christian thought for fifteen hundred years and still does today surely aristotle had little influence on christian thought before about ad yours james kiefer
soc.religion.christian	bernadette dates joe moore writes mary at that time appeared to a girl named bernadette at lourdes she referred to herself as the immaculate conception since a nine year old would have no way of knowing about the doctrine the apparition was deemed to be true and it sealed the case for the doctrine bernadette was years old when she had her visions in four years after the dogma had been officially proclaimed by the pope yours james kiefer
soc.religion.christian	re satanic tounges in article may athos rutgers edu bjorn b larsen delab sintef no writes we chose to believe whetever we want but we are not allowed to define our own christianity we see in parts if you see something that i do not see or vice versa it does not give me the right to play jokes on your belief it is important if christianity is being damaged by it if people who speak in tongues make claims that they are miraculously speaking a foreign language through the power of the holy spirit when it can easily be shown that they are simply making noises it damages all christians since many who are not christians do not distinguish between the various sects the more modest claim for tongues that it is simply uncontrolled praise in which words fail you is surely the one that should be used by those who make use of this practice i agree with the point that charismatic practices like this can lead to forms of worship which are more about the worshipper showing off than genuine praise for god one of the things jesus warned us about matthew huntbach
soc.religion.christian	jacob and esau gerry palo wrote that there is nothing in christianity that excludes the theory of a succession of lives i wrote that the apostle paul in romans speaks of god as choosing jacob over esau and adds that this is not as a result of anything that either child had done since they had not been born yet clearly paul does not believe that they had had previous lives nor does he suppose that his readers will believe it for if they had had previous lives it would not make sense to say neither of them has done anything good or bad as yet since they are not yet born daniel cossack writes to ask whether it is fair for god to hate easau when esau has done nothing bad i reply that in hebrew it is standard usage to speak of hating when what is meant is simply putting in second place as an example consider the saying in matthew no man can serve two masters for either he will hate the one and love the other or now it is obviously false that a man with two masters must hate one of them but it is obviously true that he must put one of them in second place a dog that always comes when either billy or bobby calls will have a problem if they stand in different places and call simultaneously it cannot give first priority to both one must take second place in our original example second place means that jacob not esau is chosen to bear the covenant blessing and obligation and to be the ancestor of christ eugene bigelow mentions matthew which says of john the baptist and if ye will receive it this is elijah who was to come i take this to mean that john was an elijah like figure dressing and living like elijah preaching like elijah and fulfilling the prediction that elijah would prepare the way for the messiah i do not think that he was elijah in a literal sense and appareently neither did he john yours james kiefer
soc.religion.christian	rfd soc religion taize this is a rfd on a proposal for a newsgroup which would promote a sharing on the johannine hours as proposed each month by the monks of the ecumenical community of taize pronounced te zay in france name of proposed newsgroup soc religion taize unmoderated purpose of the group the taize community is an international ecumenical community of monks based in france many young adults come there to search for meaning in their life and to deepen their understanding of their faith through a sharing with others this newsgroup will allow such a sharing through a monthly johannine hour which will be posted at the beginning of each month a johannine hour involves a short commentary on a given bible passage followed by some questions for reflection any thoughts that may arise in consequence and that you wish to share with others can be posted here we are not interested in theological debate and even less in polemics no expertise is required the idea is to help one another to deepen our understanding of scripture as it is related to our own life journey the idea of johannine hours was born in taize as a simple response to all those who were trying to assimilate the bible s message in the midst of their daily life because of work or studies it is often impossible to spend long hours in silence and reflection but everyone can take an hour from time to time to enter a church sit quietly at home or go out for a walk in the woods there in silence we can meditate on a passage of scripture to listen to the voice of christ during the time of silence it is important to concentrate on what we understand and not waste time worrying if in some biblical expressions we find it difficult to hear the voice of christ the idea is to communicate to others what we have understood of christ not burdening them with our own hesitations but rather telling them what has brought us joy what has led us to run the risk of trusting more deeply perhaps those who read and think about the johannine hours in this newsgroup could share their reflections and discoveries with others the important thing is the complementarity between two aspects the personal aspect of silent personal reflection and the communal aspect of sharing which through usenet makes us a part of a worldwide network background of the taize community the following provides some background information on the life and vocation of the taize pronounced te zay community a parable of communion august with europe in the grip of world war ii brother roger aged set up home in the almost abandoned village of taize in eastern france his dream to bring together a monastic community which would live out a parable of community a sign of reconciliation in the midst of the distress of the time centering his life on prayer he used his house to conceal refugees especially jews fleeing from the nazi occupation an international and ecumenical community taize s founder spent the first two years alone others joined him later and at easter seven brothers committed themselves together to common life and celibacy year by year still others have entered the community each one making a lifelong commitment after several years of preparation today there are brothers catholics and from various protestant backgrounds from over twenty different countries some of them are living in small groups in poor neighbourhoods in asia africa north and south america the brothers accept no donations or gifts for themselves not even family inheritances and the community holds no capital the brothers earn their living and share with others entirely through their own work in sisters of saint andrew an international catholic community founded years ago came to live in the neighbouring village to share the responsibility of welcoming people in taize taize and the young the intercontinental meetings young adults and less young have been coming to taize in ever greater numbers since hundreds of thousands of people from europe and far beyond have thus been brought together in a common search intercontinental meetings take place each week sunday to sunday throughout the year and they include youth from between and countries during any one week the meetings give each person the opportunity to explore the roots of their faith and to reflect on how to unite the inner life and human solidarity the meetings in summer can have up to participants a week three times every day the brothers and everybody on the hill come together for common prayer in the church of reconciliation built in when the village church became too small a pilgrimage of trust on earth the community has never wanted to create a movement around itself instead people are called to commit themselves in their church at home in their neighbourhood their city or village to support them in this taize has created what it calls a pilgrimage of trust on earth at the end of each year the pilgrimage has a european meeting which brings together tens of thousands of young adults from every part of europe for several days in a major city there have also been meetings in asia and in the united states every year brother roger writes an open letter to the young usually completed during a stay in one of the poor regions of the world these are translated into thirty languages and provide themes for reflexion for the following year note discussion on the creation of this newsgroup will take place in news groups for any further information contact brother roy almac co uk brother roy almac co uk st b taize community taize france
soc.religion.christian	legal definition of religion edgar pearlstein asks fri may whether the supreme court or any other government authority has attempted a legal definition of religion the universal military training and service act of exempted from the draft those whose religious training and belief was opposed to participation in war in any form it defined r t b as an individual s belief in a relation to a supreme being involving duties superior to those arising from any human relation but not including essentially political sociological or philosophical views or a merely personal moral code in the case of united states v seeger the supreme court broadened the definition so as not to restrict it to explicit theists justice tom clark delivering the court s opinion said we have concluded that congress in using the expression supreme being rather than the designation god the test of belief in a relation to a superme being is whether a given belief that is sincere and meaningful occupies a place in the life of its possessor parallel to that filled by the orthodox belief in god of one who clearly qualifies for the exemption where such beliefs have parallel positions in the lives of their respective holders we cannot say that one is in a relation to a supreme being and the other is not my immediate reference is the first freedom by nat hentoff delacorte dell yours james kiefer
soc.religion.christian	re athiests and hell in article may athos rutgers edu ptrei bistromath mitre org peter trei writes in article may athos rutgers edu rexlex fnal fnal gov writes much deleted point today might be the masons just a note that they too worshipped osiris in egypt much deleted it bugs me when i see this kind of nonsense first there is no reasonable evidence linking masonry to ancient egypt or even that it existed prior to the late th century and there s nothing definitive before the th my wifes uncle was a level mason he let me look at some of the books which after his death his brothers came over and took from his greiving widow before his body had even cooled don t tell me you don t worship osiris you must not be past your th level you should read wilkinson s egyptians and how he shows this egyptian religion paralleling his own british masonry there is a man here at this laboratory who is a degree black mason i ve talked with him though much he likes to hide mystery special handshakes and all when he first started trying to evangelize me he told me all kinds on special this and special that here is truely a mystery religion there is the public side with motorcyle mania and childrens hospitals and then there is the priviate side that only the highest degree mason every learns of second worship of osiris is not nor has it ever been a part of masonic practice we are strictly non denominational i haven t read it but the literature that is offered by the silver haired apologist can t remember his name on tv didn t exactly come to this same conclusion khons the son of the great goddess mother seems to have been gernaerally represented as a full grown god the babylonian divinity was also represented very frequently in egupt in the very same wayas in the land of his nativity i e as a child in his mother s arems this was the way in which osiris the son the husband of his mother was often exhibited and what we learn of this god equally as in the case of khonso shows that in his original he was none other than nimrod it is admitted that the secret system of free masonry was originally founded on the mysteries of the egyptian isis the goddess mother or wife of osiris but what could have led to the union of a masonic body with these mysteries had they not had particular reference to architecture and had the god who was worshipped in them not been celebrated for his success in perfecting the arts of fortification and building now if such were the case considering the relation in which as we have already seen egypt stood to babylon who would naturally be liiked up to there as the great patron of the masonic art the strong presumption is that nimrod must have been the man he was the first that gained faim in this way as the child of the babylonian goddess mother he was worshipped in the character of ala mahozim the god of fortification osiris the child of the egyptian modonna was equally celebrated as the strong chief of the buildings this strong chief of the buildings was origninally worshipped in egypt with every physicall characteristic of nimrod i have already noticed the fact that nimrod as the son of cush was a negro now there was a tradition in egypt recorded by plutarch that osiris was black hislop it was like a cold slap to my face when my wifes uncle brought out his cerimonial dress and it was leopard skin i mean real leopard skin he told me that only the highest of degrees wore the leopard skin the reason that he started telling me all this was that he had just been given a couple of months to live and my wife had led him to a saving faith in christ and he immediately repented from mysteries of the lodge nimr rod from nimr a leopard and rada or rad to subdue it is a universal principle in all idolatries that the high priest wears the insignia of the god he serves any representation of osiris usually show the wearing of some leopard it is interesting that the druids of britian also show or should i say hide this representation they however worshipped the spotted cow i ll stand by my statements masonry is of the mystery religions that all find their source in babylon the great harlot sorry peter i do not mean to be a cold slap to the face but there is to much evidence to the contrary that masonry doesn t find its origins in egypt of the masons i have personally talked to all refered to egypt as their origin why are you now separating yourself from this which not many years ago was freely admitted rex
soc.religion.christian	eternal marriage was mormon temples in article may athos rutgers edu dhammers pacific david hammerslag writes this paragraph brought to mind a question how do you mormons reconcile the idea of eternal marriage with christ s statement that in the ressurection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage luke chapt well here is something i wrote some time ago in response to a similar question i hope it helps begin repeat of previous post as for the scripture mentioned i agree that it does seem to be a problem not only for eternal marriage but marriage in general luke s version has jesus saying that the children of this world marry and are given in marriage but not those who will attain the kingdom of heaven it almost sounds like marriage disqualifies one for salvation matthew and mark both omit this statement i think the accounts are not as clear as they might be let s have a look at the incident and see if we can come up with some reasonable ideas of what it means the scriptures involved are mat mark and luke what happened was that the sadducees who did not believe in the resurrection thought they could trap jesus they made reference to the leverite marriage which required the brother of a man who died without children to take the widow to wife and raise up children the children would be considered children of the deceased just as though the woman s first husband had fathered them it seems obvious from this that the woman was still considered in a way to be the wife of her first husband however the sadducees concocted a scene in which brothers of the deceased each in his turn failed to father children by the widow they seem to imply that the leverite marriage was equal to the first for they ask whose wife shall she be in the resurrection at this point it seems obvious that if she is anybody s wife it is the first husband after all had she borne children they would have been credited to him regardless of which brother was the biological father it is possible jesus was refering to this when he says ye do err not knowing the scriptures or the power of god mat compare mark phrase not in luke s account anyway the sadducees ask whose wife will she be in the resurrection seeing that all had her jesus answer is that in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage mat when they rise from the dead they neither marry mark they which are accounted worthy to obtain that world neither marry luke all accounts go on to say but are as the angels in heaven or the equivalent i find this last not very helpful since the bible does not define angels nor give any idea what their life is like some ministers claim that they are sexless different that humans etc but i can find no biblical support for this i think what jesus is saying here and it is clearest in matthew s and mark s accounts is that marriages will not be performed in the resurrection this goes along with our belief that if a person is to marry at all it must be done on this earth however we do believe that a marriage performed by the authority of god can be binding in eternity in fact the first marriage appears to have been performed by god himself before death entered the world in the garden of eden what therefore god hath joined together let not man put asunder mat jesus also told peter and the other apostles that whatsoever they should bind on earth should be bound in heaven mat i believe that this also refers to marriages performed by the proper authority
soc.religion.christian	christian counseling psychology folks out there hello hoping to net some netters who are in the helping professions counseling psychology psychiatry social work therapy etc to network on some topics and consider the possibility of a sci counseling christian type newsgroup or list the integration of psychology and counseling and theology is a subject of great debate and one of particular interest to me if you re out there please lemme know email me direct if you will so we can get to know one another off the news don miller unlv dm helios nevada edu
soc.religion.christian	re dreams and out of body incidents dt cs hub ucsb edu david e goggin writes i m fairly new to these groups tho some have heard from me before welcome i d like to get your comments on a question that has been on my mind a lot what morals ethics apply to dreams and out of body incidents in normal dreams you can t control anything so obviously you aren t morally responsible for your actions hm i get a little queasy around the phrase aren t morally responsible perhaps because i ve heard it misused so many times i remember in college some folk trying to argue that a person who was drunk was not morally responsible for his actions in general most folk can t control their dreams but perhaps what you do all day and think about has some impact on them hm and i m not sure what actions are in a dream but i will note that jesus does seem adamant about the fact that our thought life is at least as important as our actions go lightly with this argument we are all morally responsible for who we are and dreams might well be an important part of that now there seem to be alternatives dreams and oobes are totally mental phenomena in this case no morality applies beyond what might be called mental hygiene that is not trying to think about anything evil or indulgining in overly sexy or violent thoughts i don t know a thing about out of body experiences i ve had dreams some fairly vivid ones is an oobe just a very vivid dream i would argue that extreme interest in this sort of phenomena is a tad risky it is probably much better to think about who jesus is and who we are in relation to that than to cultivate a strong interest in dreams unless you feel plagued by dreams that are painful and out of control then pray about it and or get help dreams and oobes have a reality of their own i e are another plane evidence for this is that often dreams and oobes are sometimes done in common by more than one person what on earth is your definition of often i know exactly one case of two people who had substantially the same dream at the same time and as they were brothers who had spent the day doing the same things i could see why their dreams might be similiar anyway the only other plane i know of is the spiritual realm i don t think anyone s dreams perhaps outside the occasional prophet s represent actual actions on an alternate plane if they were real actions or conscious thoughts then yes they would have direct moral significance like but here we assume that garbled text because the dream occurs in a different environment then different moral laws apply is my guess of what you said i don t see the slightest hint in christian writings that ones environment changes the way a person determines what is moral for a christian won t it always come down to what jesus would have us do so there it is is one of these cases the truth or does anyone know of another alternative respond by post or email truth i don t claim to be an expert in dreams i ll note that the bible doesn t talk much about dreams outside of the realm of god using them to speak to us with the caveat that such messages are not always very clear as it warns somewhere in the ot given that i would not give them a lot of attention unless you feel your dreams are trying to tell you something i would discount talk of alternate planes though the only places such concepts are commonly bandied about are for the most part hostile to christianity though i ve run into the occasional exception if you are or want to be a christian you want to be very careful about ideas like this
soc.religion.christian	re bastards was mormon beliefs about bastards of some relevance to the posts on this subject might be deut a bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the lord even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the lord
soc.religion.christian	re the doctrine of original sin in article may athos rutgers edu adamsj gtewd mtv gtegsc com writes samuel rsv anyhow many interpret this to mean that the child has gone to heaven where david will someday go i don t claim to know for sure if this applies to all babies or not but even if it s just this one what would you say to this that brings up an interesting question if this interpretation is correct how would these people be getting into heaven before jesus opened the gates of heaven steve creps indiana university creps lateran ucs indiana edu
soc.religion.christian	re dreams and out of body incidents in article may athos rutgers edu dt cs hub ucsb edu david e goggin writes i d like to get your comments on a question that has been on my mind a lot what morals ethics apply to dreams and out of body incidents in normal dreams you can t control anything so obviously you aren t morally responsible for your actions but if you can contrive to control the action in dreams or do an oobe it seems like a morality applies i think that if someone often has immoral dreams like lustful dreams or dreams where you commit acts of violence etc etc it may be a sign that he has something sinful in his heart it may be the holy spirit s way of allowing the sinfulness that is in us to come to light so that we can pray about it and have it removed generally if one has a pure heart and sets his mind on things that are holy he will be holy even when he dreams dreams also can be from the lord joseph and nebucadnezzar are two examples of people in the bible who received dreams from the lord regarding out of body experiences this is something that we have to be careful with what is called an oobe can be spiritual in nature especially if what one saw is the same as an experience witnessed by someone else christians should certainly avoid any occult activity that would generate an out of body experience some things that might be called an oobe might actually be from the lord paul wrote of what might of been an oobe in ii corinthians he wrote of a spiritual experience of being caught up into the third heaven is an oobe truely an oobe does one really leave his body or is he just seeing an image being shown to him by a spirit be it a demon or the holy spirit i don t think it matters that much paul could not tell be that as it may we should be careful not to open ourselves up to satan to experience oobe s we should not meditate and pretend we are in a place until our spirits apparently float there this is dangerous if god wants to gice us what seems like an oobe then he can do that of his own sovereign will in the bible most often it seems that prophets are just taken up by god s sovereign will and not because they are seeking an oobe john was in the spirit praying on the lord s day when he was caught up in the visions he received ezekial was talking with some jewish leaders when he was caught up into the visions of god one time if god wants to take one of us up into a vision he can do it people should be careful not to open themselves up to evil spirits for the sake of a few thrills link hudson
soc.religion.christian	re the doctrine of original sin in article may athos rutgers edu eugene bigelow ebay sun com writes this all obviously applies equally well to infants or adults since both have souls infants must be baptized therefore or they cannot enter into heaven they too need this form of life in them or they cannot enter into heaven are you saying that baptism has nothing to do with asking jesus to come into your heart and accepting him as your savior but is just a ritual that we must go through to enable us to enter heaven i don t think joe was saying any such thing however your question on asking jesus to come into your heart seems to imply that infants are not allowed to have christ in theirs why must baptism always be viewed by some people as a sort of prodigal son type of thing i e a sudden change of heart going from not accepting christ to suddenly accepting christ why can t people start out with christ from shortly after birth and build their relationship from there after all does a man suddenly meet a woman and then marry her that same day from my experiences i ve learned that all relationships must be built including one s relationship with god also joe is speaking from the standpoint that baptism is not just a ritual but that through it god bestows sacramental grace upon the recipient certainly for those with the mental faculties to know christ it is necessary to believe in him however the sacrament itself bestows grace on the recipient and makes a permanent mark of adoption into god s family on the soul steve creps indiana university creps lateran ucs indiana edu
soc.religion.christian	more on peter i wrote that i thought that peter meant no prophecy of scripture or as one reader suggests no written prophecy is merely the private opinion of the writer tony zamora replies sat may that this in turn implies that it is not subject to the private interpretation of the reader either i am not sure that i understand this in one sense no statement by another is subject to my private interpretation if reliable historians tell me that the athenians lost the pelopennesian war i cannot simply interpret this away because i wanted the athenians to win facts are facts and do not go away because i want them to be otherwise in another sense every statement is subject to private interpretation in that i have to depend on my brains and expereience to decide what it means and whether it is sufficiently well attested to merit my assent even if the statement occurs in an inspired writing i still have to decide using my own best judgement whether it is in fact inspired this is not arrogance it is just an inescapable fact yours james kiefer
soc.religion.christian	re earthquake prediction in article may athos rutgers edu dan ingres com a rose arose writes were god to call me to be a prophet and i were to misrepresent god s word my calling would be lost forever god s word would command the people never to listen to or fear my words as i would be a false prophet my bridges would be burnt forever perhaps i could repent and be saved but i could never again be a prophet of god though there is a command in the law not to heed to one who prophecies falsely it is still possible for the one who has prophecied falsely to prophecy truely again take for example the story in kings about the man of god from judah who came to israel and prophecied against a king the lord had commanded him to not eat or drink till he returned home another prophet wanted this man of god to stay in his house so he prophecied falsely that the lord wanted the man of god to stay in his house while they ate and drank in his house the lord gave the prophet who lied a word that the man of god would die from breaking the word of the lord it came to pass link hudson
soc.religion.christian	re homosexual issues in christianity there s some ambiguity about the meaning of the words in the passage you quote both liberal and conservative sources seem to agree that homosexual is not the general term for homosexuals but is likely to have a meaning like homosexual prostitute from what i understand of my experience in looking up this word and discussing it with a greek literate individual the meaning of the word is rather clear basically it literally means he who beds with a man or he who has sex with a man the burden of proof is on the pro homosexuality side of the argument to show that the word has an idiomatic meaning nor evident from its literal meaning one can speculate all day long that it might mean something else but we need evidence before we create new doctrines and get rid of the historical understanding of the meaning of this word link hudson i ve read enough discussions of this passage in both liberal and conservative sources to be sure that the meaning even the literal meaning is not certain that doesn t mean one can t come to some conclusion nor does it mean that i think there s any doubt about what paul thinks of homosexuality but there are plausible arguments for a couple of different meanings clh
soc.religion.christian	re mary s assumption in article may athos rutgers edu mpaul unl edu marxhausen paul writes feeling that the assumption of mary would be better phrased our text deleted i also don t see the necessity of saying the holy parents were some how sanctified beyond normal humanity it sounds like our own inability to grasp the immensity of god s grace in being incarnated through an or dinary human being text deleted paul marxhausen thank you very much paul i have always been impressed by the very human ness of mary that god chose a woman like me to bring into this world the incarnation of himself proves to me that this god is my god he reaches down from his perfection to touch me ah the wonder of it all sheila patterson cit cr technical support group ccc cornell university ithaca ny
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians news cbnewsk att com writes arrogance is arrogance it is not the result of religion it is the result of people knowing or firmly believing in an idea and one s desire to show others of one s rightness i assume that god decided to be judge for our sake as much as his own if we allow him who is kind and merciful be the judge we ll probably be better off than if others judged us or we judged ourselves i m not sure i agree with this i agree that arrogance is not the result of religion and that god is a far better judge than we are i also agree if you mean to say that arrogance shows up in the form of trying to prove one s superior knowledge rightness or holiness over another person s beliefs i need to be careful to understand what you mean here so that i do not fall into the mistake of misrepresenting your views if i fall down in this area i hope you will forgive me arrogance is not the result of believing one is right or of believing that one s god is greater than the god s of others or of believing that one s religion is better than other religions these are all naturally self implied beliefs it is self contradictory to say that i believe my current beliefs to be wrong were i to find myself in error my beliefs would naturally change and follow what i believe to be right therefore i must always consider my beliefs correct that s not arrogance that s unavoidable behavior it is nonsense to say that i believe another person s god to be greater than my god were his or her god greater wouldn t i be obligated to change so that their god would become my god we are naturally obligated to worship that god which we deem to be the greatest why should we feel obligated to worship a second best god for the sake of feeling humble arrogance is not necessarily thinking onesself to be better looking or more intelligent or stronger or having more resources than another person no doubt many will have to chew on this one awhile were passive observation of one s superior points arrogance then god would be most arrogant of all humility does not rest in slandering or belittling god s work of creation in our lives people often go around trying to be humble saying to one another i m not very smart i m poor i m not good looking i m just a worm in the ground i m such a weak person and although i don t want to sin i really cannot help it were this person truely humble he would take a different approach god thank you for making me the way you did i know that you never do anything second best yet with all that you have given me i have been so unthankful you ve given me power to resist the devil i have not used it but have indulged myself in doing exactly what you have said not to do i have slandered your creation in my life and have credited myself with humility for doing so lord with all you ve given me i have been completely unfaithful and i do not deserve your forgiveness and yet your love for me is so boundless that you would give yourself to die for me to save me as terribly evil as i am i deserve to go straight to hell yet it pleases you somehow to rescue me from this terrible life i ve led lord please forgive me and help me stay on the right track so that i can bring glory to your name instead of insult lord i m so sorry for my wrongs please help me to change i think people take exceptional offense to religious arrogance because they don t want to be wrong if i find someone arrogant i typically don t have anything to do with them for me i ve often found it hard to tell the difference often times the most humble christian has come across to me as arrogant while the most proud worm in the ground false humility type person has been found to be most comfortable company when i m wrong and arrogant about my wrongness i certainly don t feel like being confronted by my wrongness were someone to confront me verbally with my wrongness i d be likely to snap at them and examine them head to toe for all their faults and charge them with hypocricy for what they said to me at the root my desire would be to make them shut up so that i can go about living my life arrogantly as i wish however were someone to confront me silently by their example earn my respect and perhaps mention it to me in humility in private i d feel broken down and challenged to seek god for help in changing from the error of my ways the hard part is getting to the point to where i can be humble before anyone regardless of their humility or pride regardless of their hypocricy or sincerity regardless of whether onlookers will frown down upon me or not it isn t easy to take this pain in love with thankfulness for the opportunity to improve in one s ability to serve god it s easier to cast aside any hope of reaching true humility and merely hide behind slandering god s creation in our lives instead but we should examine ourselves i hope i typed this back in right and why we react to certain situations with such emotions for instance many of us feel justified to be insulted by an arrogant person as if we needed a reason to feel insulted but after being insulted over and over again by the words of others you d think we d either toughen up or decide not to be insulted or ignore the insult just because you can justify feelings of anger or insult or outrage that doesn t make that reaction the appropriate one it is in this light of self examination that we can change our emotional reactions sometimes it helps when we can understand and feel the difference between what is a true statement of our character and what is a false and slanderous statement of our character the devil is the accuser of the bretheren he would love us to feel hopelessly guilty where we are innocent and feel arrogant and self righteous where we are indeed wrong the devil s aim is to get us into as much misery as he can just think of the devil as a cruel and merci less criminal who torments a parent by burning his or her children with hot irons the way the devil gets under the father s skin is by hurting those that the father loves so much i deplore the horrible crime of child murder we want prevention not merely punishment we must reach the root of the evil it is practiced by those whose inmost souls revolt from the dreadful deed no mater what the motive love of ease or a desire to save from suffering the unborn innocent the woman is awfully guilty who commits the deed but oh thrice guilty is he who drove her to the desperation which impelled her to the crime susan b anthony the revolution july
soc.religion.christian	daily verse but you will receive power when the holy spirit comes on you and you will be my witnesses in jerusalem and in all judea and samaria and to the ends of the earth acts
soc.religion.christian	re the doctrine of original sin in article may athos rutgers edu eugene bigelow ebay sun com writes if babies are not supposed to be baptised then why doesn t the bible ever say so it never comes right and says only people that know right from wrong or who are taught can be baptised this is not a very sound argument for baptising babies it assumes that if the bible doesn t say specifically that you don t need to do something then that must mean that you do need to do it i know there s a specific term for this form of logic but it escapes me right now however if it were sound then you should be able to apply it this way if the bible doesn t specifically say that something is wrong then it must be ok which coincidentally leads perfectly into a question i ve often pondered this is no less logical than the assumption that if something is not in the bible then it must not be done but i don t really think that s what he s saying anyway see below if slavery is immoral which i believe it is can i assume that everyone else in this group does too why doesn t jesus or any of the apostles speak out against it owning slaves was common practice back then paul speaks about everything else that is immoral he apparently thought it was important enough to talk about things like not being a drunkard why doesn t anyone mention slavery if god s morals are eternal and don t change like the morals of society then it must have been just as immoral then as it is today what about the letter to philemon in it paul at least hints that a certain slave be released also slavery in those times was not the same as the type of slavery we had in the u s i think a better comparison would be to indentured servitude i don t really want to get into a discussion on slavery anyway although it does demonstrate your point i don t think it is relevent because the original poster did not say that absence of specific condemenation proves something is not immoral back to the original poster s assertion he is not in fact making the logical error of which you accuse him he stated the fact that the bible does not say that babies cannot be baptized also we know that the bible says that everyone must be baptized to enter heaven everyone includes infants unless there is other scripture to the contrary i e an exception since there is no exception listed in the bible we must assume to be on the safe side that the bible means what it says that everyone must be baptized to enter heaven and so we baptize infants to summarize you accused the original poster of saying if something is not forbidden by the bible then that proves it is ok i e if something cannot be disproven it is true he rather seemed to be asserting that since the bible does not forbid you cannot prove using the bible that it is not ok there is a difference between proving whether or not something can be proven or disproven there are theories on provability in the field of logic by the way and actually proving or disproving it the other logical error we must avoid falling into is the converse that if something cannot be proven then it is false this seems to be the error of many sola scriptura believers i think the only thing that can be proven here is that one cannot use scripture alone to prove something either way about infant baptism although the evidence seems to me to favor it steve creps indiana university creps lateran ucs indiana edu
soc.religion.christian	re satanic tounges in article may athos rutgers edu hudson athena cs uga edu paul hudson jr writes in article may athos rutgers edu koberg spot colorado edu allen koberg writes hmmm in the old testament story about the tower of babel we see how god punished by giving us different language can we assume then that if angels have their own language at all that they have the same one amongst other angels after all they were not punished in any manner if the languages we sepak are the result of babel then it stands to reason that angels would speak a different language from us you do have a valid point about multiple angelic languages but angelic beings maybe of different species so to speak maybe different species communicate differently i don t know either truth be known so little is known of angels to even guess all we really know is that angels always speak in the nativ tongue of the person they re talking to so perhaps they don t have any language of their own trouble is while such stories abound any and all attempts at verification and we are to test the spirit either show that the witness had no real idea of the circumstances or that outright fabrication was involved the brother puka story in a previous post seems like a friend of a friend thing and linguistically a two syllable word hardly qualifies as language inflection or no i have heard an eyewitness account myself such things are hard to prove they don t lend themselves to a laboratory thing very well i don t know if it is a very holy thing to take gifts into a laboratory anyway well we are told to test the spirits while you could do this scripturally to see if someones claims are backed by the bible i see nothing wrong with making sure that that guy lazarus really was dead and now he s alive much as many faith healers have trouble proving their victories since most ailments cured are just plain unprovable and modern day ressurrections have never been validated so is it true that no modern day xenoglossolalia has been proved by clergy or lay that s an unprovable statement how can you prove if somethings been proved there is no way to know that you ve seen all the evidence once i saw an orthodontists records complete with photographs showing how one of his patients severe underbite was cured by constant prayer it s a common fallacy you commit the non falsifiability trick how can i prove it when not all the evidence may be seen answer i can t the fallacy is in assuming that it is up to me to prove anything when i say it has never been proven i m talking about the ones making the claims not the skeptics who are doing the proving the burden of proof rest with the claimant unfortunately pontification warning our legal system seems to be headed in the dangerous realm of making people prove their innocence end pontification but truthfully corinthians was so poorly written or maybe just so poorly translated into english that much remains unknown about just what paul really intended despite claims of hard proof one way or another some will see his writings in cor as saying don t do this don t do this and using sarcasm metaphor etc while yet others take what he says literally sarcasms and metaphors notwithstanding me when i read cor about praying speaking in tongues regarding building oneself the church i see him using compare contrast saying do this because it build the church while doing this builds onself implying don t do that it s a common usage of writing that we all employ and it is easily seen how it could be interpreted this way why some do and some don t is a mystery
soc.religion.christian	re how i got saved my first and most important point is that regardless of how your recovery happened i m glad it did on may in re how i got saved user karen lauro camelot brad writes i found it ore than coincidental that less than weeks after i put my faith where my mouth was one more in the long line of doctors and not even an orthopeodic specialist diagnosed my problems with no difficulty set me on the path to an effective cure and i was walking and running again without the pain that had stopped me from that for years the diagnosis was something he felt the other doctors must have overlooked because it was perfectly obvious from my test results now the point that i ll try to make is that coincidences like this occur with a very high frequency how many of us have been thinking of someone and had that person call much of the whole psychic phenomenon is easily explicable by this one forgets the misses consider your astrological forcast in the newspaper how many times have you said that s me vs that s not me you ll remember the hits but the misses will be much more frequent on may in re how i got saved user karen lauro camelot brad writes maybe this doesn t hit you as miraculous but to me it really is imagine an active year old being told she may not be able to walk mcuh longer and is now a happy year old who can dance and run knowing that the problem was there all along and was revealed just after she did what she knew was right as the song says and what if instead if being healed your affliction got much worse and you ended up paralyzed would you have attributed that to god as well or would that have been the work of satan if you believe that would have been so why only good from god and only evil from satan couldn t the agony have come from god think about what he did to poor job david hunt graduate slave my mind is my own towards both a mechanical engineering so are my ideas opinions palestinian and carnegie mellon university use golden rule v jewish homeland t h e r e i s n o g o d t h e r e i s n o g o d email bluelobster cmu edu working towards my piled higher and deeper the gostak distims the doches
soc.religion.christian	re the doctrine of original sin in article may athos rutgers edu eugene bigelow ebay sun com writes eugene bigelow writes doesn t the bible say that god is a fair god sic if this is true how can this possibly be fair to the infants andrew byler writes what do you mean fair god is just giving to everyone what they deserve as all infants are in sin from the time of conception cf romans psalm they cannot possibly merit heaven and as purgatory is for the purging of temporal punishment and venial sins it is impossible that origianl sin can be forgiven why is it fair to punish you me and the rest of humanity because of what adam and eve did suppose your parents committed some crime before you were born and one day the cops come to your door and throw you in jail for it would you really think that is fair i know i wouldn t well suppose your mother was a crack addict and crack user abuser while she was pregnant suppose your husband gave you some sdt this recently happened to a close friend of my wife and mine often the consequences of our sin are at least partially inflicted on innocent people several times in the ot this is pointed out even saying that descendants would suffer consequences for a person s sin for several generations even today we see multi generational to coin a phrase effects from alcoholism child abuse and spousal abuse just to name three so god s definition of fair and ours differ some points of perspective though the predisposition towards sinning is now inbred see webster s first definition of inbred thanks to adam it is arrogant and foolish for any of us to think we would have done any different if we were in their shoes i know myself pretty well and i m just not that good take god s word for it neither are you there is no one righteous more important when a person decides to be a disciple of jesus god promises supernatural help in overcoming our physical self s sinful tendency we can of course choose to ignore this help rom god made mankind upright but men have gone in search of many schemes eccl mark mark wuest my opinions not at t s mdw violin hr att com sun mailtool ok mdw trumpet hr att com next mail
soc.religion.christian	re faq essay on homosexuality our moderator writes i believe one could take a view like this even while accepting the views paul expressed in rom one may believe that homosexuality is not what god intended that it occured as a result of sin but still conclude that at times we have to live with it note that in the creation story work enters human life as a result of sin this doesn t mean that christians can stop working when we are saved please note that god commanded adam to work before the fall the lord god took the man and put him in the garden of eden to work it and take care of it gen niv work was god s design from the beginning ken i ll clarify the wording there was obviously a rather different kind of labor imposed after the fall but the statement as it stands is misleading clh
soc.religion.christian	re faq essay on homosexuality before you finalize your file in the faqs or after you might want to correct the typo in the following kinsey see below is the source of the figure percent he defines sexuality by behavior not by orientation and ranked all persons on a scale from zero completely heterosexual to completely heterosexual it seems one or the other end of the rating scale should be identified with homosexual as a personal note i guess i differ with you on the question of work entering human life as a result of sin note that in the creation story work enters human life as a result of sin before the fall gen and the lord god took the man and put him into the garden of eden to dress it and to keep it which i would call work for me the difference introduced by sin is the painful aspects of work added at the fall i take the cursing of the ground in vs to apply to the work for sustenance in a way some view work as a blessing ecclesiastes is a fun book for melancholies i hope i do not sound caustic maybe you can enlighten me further well this is certainly a delicate subject and i guess you accomplished what you state as your purpose it summarizes arguments for allowing christian homosexuality not for me the most noble goal but you are writing a faq i wonder if you might temporize the apparent sentence of the specific homosexual you propose arguably tenuously define the danger in advising christians to depend upon such a change is clear when conversion doesn t happen which is almost always the people are often left in despair feeling excluded from a church that has nothing more to say but a requirement of life long celibacy perhaps that would be true of celibacy from homosexual relations or refrainng from their choice relationships but that does not forbid heterosexual could they not have enjoy heterosexual relations for what it was worth this depends upon the person in some cases i think the answer is no even with those who could consider what you re asking i assume we re talking about marriage i certainly would not want to suggest sex outside that you re talking about a permanent commitment to a kind of sexual relationship that they aren t really sure they can live with there may be people for whom this is a possible solution but i wonder whether it s entirely fair to the other partner i have a cousin who was a victim of exactly this situation we found out later after her death that her husband had had problems with his sexual identity his family conservative christians knew it and pushed him into getting married he continued having problems and they were near divorce she died in an accident whose circumstances some of the relatives consider odd he has since had a sex change operation and has been moving around from state to state without being able to hold a job keeping their children in a kind of home life both sets of grandparents consider irresponsible i hope you can understand why i am not enthusiastic about pushing homosexuals into marriage i really liked my cousin this is sort of an emotional issue for me again it may be possible for some but this is the sort of situation that needs to be dealt with pastorally and not as a matter of fixed ideology clh
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity in article may athos rutgers edu news cbnewsk att com writes paul repeatedly talks about the thorn in his side some think it refers to lust others pride but who knows whatever the thorn was apparently it was not compatible with christianity yet does that make his epistles any less there is no reason to believe that paul s thorn in the flesh was a sin in his life that makes little sense in the light of paul writings taken in totality he writes of how he presses for the mark and keeps his body submitted no doubt paul had to struggle with the flesh just like every christian paul does associate his thorn with a satanic messenger and with physical infirmities and tribulation but not with a sin in his life link hudson
soc.religion.christian	catholic doctrine of predestination in article may athos rutgers edu noye midway uchicago edu writes really you may be right but i d like proof as far as i know and i am not a div school student the catholic church does not seem to accept predestination my chaplain told me beware of greeks bearing gifts with reference to this doctrine it seems to have the curious result that human beings are not held responsible for their own actions i ll answer how you deal with this in a minute the catholic doctrine of predestination does not exclude free will in any way since god knows everything he therefore knows everything that is going to happen to us we have free will and are able to change what happens to us however since god knows everything he knows all the choices we will make in advance god is not subject to time too often arguments pit predestination against free will we believe in both steve creps indiana university creps lateran ucs indiana edu
soc.religion.christian	an quoted argument for theism on sun may damon wrote a christian friend of mine once reasoned that if we were never created we could not exists therefore we were created and therefore there exists a creator i hesitate to comment on the validity of this because i do not know what your friend meant by it if he meant that whatever exists must have been created then he is open to the obvious retort that god exists and so god must have been created perhaps your friend meant that we exist now but that there was a time when we did not exist and therefore something other than ourselves must have brought us into existence this seems plausible but an atheist might reply so my parents engendered me so what here your friend would have to explain why an infinite regress of causes is not a satisfactory explanation he would have some support from philosophers who are not ordinarily considered religious ayn rand and some others who are in the tradition of aristotle having argued for a first cause he would have to bridge the gap between said entity and the god of abraham if he merely asserts that the things we observe are ultimately dependent on things radically unlike them few physicists would disagree yours james kiefer
soc.religion.christian	re how i got saved hello brycen i m a norwegian journalist student and also a christian thanks for your testimony but i want to ask you one question what do you think of heavy metal music after you became a christian you know there are christian bands like barren cross whitecross bloodgood and stryper that play that kind of music i like some of it i feel like it sometimes of course i listen to the lyrics too i don t listen to any christian band but it s better than listening to secular music anyway hope you re still going strong with christ ann kristin froeystad college of nordland norway
soc.religion.christian	re the doctrine of original sin in article may athos rutgers edu eugene bigelow ebay sun com writes as st augustine said i did not invent original sin which the catholic faith holds from ancient time but you who deny it without a doubt are a follower of a new heresy de nuptiis lib c why is it fair to punish you me and the rest of humanity because of what adam and eve did suppose your parents committed some crime before you were born and one day the cops come to your door and throw you in jail for it would you really think that is fair i know i wouldn t you may not think that it is fair but how many sins do you know of that affect only the sinner is it fair for us even to be able to get into heaven do we have a right to heaven even if we were to lead sinless lives anyway your argument seems to be saying if i were god i certainly wouldn t do things that way therefore god doesn t do things that way isaiah for my thoughts are not your thoughts neither are your ways my ways saith the lord for as the heavens are higher than the earth so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts original sin is biblical romans wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin and so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned for until the law sin was in the world but sin is not imputed when there is no law nevertheless death reigned from adam to moses even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of adam s transgression who is the figure of him that was to come corinthians for as in adam all die even so in christ shall all be made alive steve creps indiana university creps lateran ucs indiana edu
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christiani ofm writes this is an issue throughout the presbyterian church on the other side one of the major churches in cincinnati has been ordaining homosexual elders and has ignored presbytery instructions not to do so and the church in rochester where the judicial commission said they couldn t install a homosexual pastor has made her an evangelist these situations as well as the one you describe do not appear to be stable this will certainly be a major topic for the general assembly next month if the church can t come up with a solution that will let people live with each other i think we re end up with a split clearly neither side wants that but i think we ll get pushed into it by actions of both sides clh the moderator of the general assembly the rev john fife visited our church about a week ago just days after rev spahr it s been a busy week for our small church he was asked specifically about the issue of homosexuality and what he thinks will happen at the ga meeting next month evidently there are known resolutions pending that range the gamut from outlawing homosexuality altogether to legalizing it completely he will readily admit that this is probabaly the most difficult issue that the church has had to deal with since the presbyterian church split in two over the issue of slavery more than years ago without question the issue may split the church again after we ve been reunited for all of a dozen years or so he is hopeful that it will not and is pushing the same attitude that helped the church deal with the abortion issue last year as a solution he is hoping to pass a resolution that more or less states that we the members of the church agree to disagree on the issue admitting that both sides have honestly studied the scriptures and had the spirit lead them to different conclusions it worked last year when the abortion issue threatened to do more or less the same thing and he is hopeful that the ga can foster a loving and caring attitude about people who disagree with their own view cliff slaughterbeck dept of physics fm it s time for the sermon on the university of washington grand torino seattle wa it s going to be hard to agree to disagree if we allow disagreement then some presbyteries and churches are going to ordain people that others will not recognize that s a difficult situation in a connectional church i could live with it but i think a lot of people would not be willing to note that the church was not willing to live with this kind of compromise with ordination of women the one thing that will definitely prevent a person from becoming a presbyterian minister is if they indicate that they don t accept ordination of women the argument is that we can t have half the church not accepting the leaders of the other half maybe people will decide to live with it in this case when they didn t in the other but i wonder i admit that my own presbytery submitted an overture to the ga that would have exactly this effect and we considered the ambiguity better than the current situation clh
soc.religion.christian	re homosexual issues in christianity whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu bryan whitsell sent in a list of verses which he felt condemn homosexuality mls panix com michael siemon wrote in response that some of these verses are used against us only through incredibly perverse interpretations and that others simply do not address the issues in response i wrote i can see that some of the above verses do not clearly address the issues however a couple of them seem as though they do not require incredibly perverse interpretations in order to be seen as condemning homosexuality do not be deceived neither fornicators nor idolators nor adulterers nor effeminate nor homosexuals nor thieves nor the covetous nor drunkards nor revilers nor swindlers shall inherit the kingdom of god and such were some of you i cor would someone care to comment on the fact that the above seems to say fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of god how does this apply to homosexuals i understand fornication to be sex outside of marriage is this an accurate definition is there any such thing as same sex marriage in the bible my understanding has always been that the new testament blesses sexual intercourse only between a husband and his wife i am however willing to listen to scriptural evidence to the contrary remainder of my post deleted the moderator then made some comments i would like to address there s some ambiguity about the meaning of the words in the passage you quote both liberal and conservative sources seem to agree that homosexual is not the general term for homosexuals but is likely to have a meaning like homosexual prostitute that doesn t meant that i think all the biblical evidence vanishes but the nature of the evidence is such that you can t just quote one verse and solve things if you are referring to the terms effeminate and homosexuals in the above passage i agree that the accuracy of the translation has been challenged however i was simply commenting on the charge that it is an incredibly perverse interpretation to read this as a condemnation of homosexuality such a charge seems to imply that no reasonable person would ever conclude from the verse that paul intended to condemn homosexuality however i think i can see how a reasonable person might very well take this view of the verse therefore i do not believe it is incredibly perverse to read it in this way i think your argument from fornication is circular why is homosexuality wrong because it s fornication why is it fornication because they re not married why aren t they married because the church refuses to do a marriage ceremony why does the church refuse to do a marriage ceremony because homosexuality is wrong in order to break the circle there s got to be some other reason to think homosexuality is wrong clh actually i wasn t thinking of the church at all after all a couple doesn t have to be married by a minister a secular justice of the peace could do the job and the two people would be married my point was that it is easy to find a biblical basis for heterosexual marriage but where in the bible would one get a christian marriage between two people of the same sex and if you do see a biblical basis for same sex marriages how willing would gay christians be to save themselves for such a marriage and to never have sexual intercourse with anyone outside of that marriage relationship please note that i am not trying to imply that gay christians would not be willing to be so monogamous i am genuinely interested in hearing opinions on the subject i have heard comments from gays in the past that lead me to believe they regard promiscuity as one of the main points of being homosexual yet i tend to doubt that gays who want to be christian would advocate such a position so what is the gay view mark yes i agree that a reasonable person might conclude that paul is condemning homosexuality i was responding to certain details of your posting that doesn t mean i agree with michael in all respects clh
soc.religion.christian	re dreams and out of body incidents dt cs hub ucsb edu david e goggin writes dreams and oobes are totally mental phenomena in this case no morality dreams and oobes have a reality of their own i e are another plane like but here we assume that though the dreeam and oobe environs have a real existence a different moral ethics apply there and no or maybe different moral laws apply there i can think of another alternative oobe s are a form of contact with the demonic world whereby one intentionally or unintentionally surrenders control of his or her perceptions to spiritual beings whose purpose is to deceive and entrap them mark
soc.religion.christian	re satanic tounges in article may athos rutgers edu koberg spot colorado edu allen koberg writes hmmm in the old testament story about the tower of babel we see how god punished by giving us different language can we assume then that if angels have their own language at all that they have the same one amongst other angels after all they were not punished in any manner maybe before babel everyone including angels spoke the same language so at babel god punished us by giving us languages different from the original one so if that s the case then angels now would be speaking in the tongue mankind spoke before babel jonah
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity dan schaertel dps nasa kodak com wrote in article geneva rutgers edu loisc microsoft com lois christiansen writes you might visit some congregations of christians who happen to be homosexuals that are spirit filled believers not mcc rs before you go lumping us all together with troy perry gee i think there are some real criminals robbers muderers drug addicts who appear to be fun loving caring people too so what s your point is it ok just because the people are nice the point is not about being nice nice is not a christian virtue the point is that the gifts and fruits of the spirit by their fruits you shall know them mt are manifested by and among prayerful spirit filled gay christians it was the manifestation of the spirit among the gentiles that convinced peter acts that his prejudice against them based on scripture i might add was not in accordance with god s intentions i think the old saying hate the sin and not the sinner is appropriate here many who belive homosexuality is wrong probably don t hate the people i don t i don t hate my kids when they do wrong either but i tell them what is right and if they lie or don t admit they are wrong or just don t make an effort to improve or repent they get punished i think this is quite appropriate you may want to be careful about how you think satan is working here maybe he is trying to destroy our sense of right and wrong through feel goodism maybe he is trying to convince you that you know more than god kind of like the adam and eve story read it and compare it to today s mentality you may be suprised of course the whole issue is one of discernment it may be that satan is trying to convince us that we know more than god or it may be that god is trying as god did with peter to teach us something we don t know that god shows no partiality but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him acts revdak netcom com
soc.religion.christian	re deuterocanonicals esp sirach poram ihlpb att com wrote lets talk about principles if we accept that god sets the standards for what ought to be included in scripture then we can ask is it authoritative authoritative is not a quality of the writing itself it is a statement by the community of faith whether it will accept the writing as normative is it prophetic how is prophecy to be defined if it is speaking forth of god s message much of the apocrypha must surely qualify is it authentic again by what standard is authenticity a function of the authors the historical accuracy is it dynamic what is this supposed to mean many of the apocryphal books are highly dynamic thought provoking faithful even exciting is it received collected read and used by whom of course the apocryphal books were received by some collected or else we would not have them read and used and they still are in the catholic and orthodox churches on these counts the apocrapha falls short of the glory of god this is demonstrably false to quote unger s bible dictionary on the apocrapha they abound in historical and geographical inaccuracies and anachronisms so do other books of the bible they teach doctrines which are false and foster practices which are at variance with sacred scripture false by whose interpretation those churches that accept them find no contradiction with the rest of scripture they resort to literary types and display an artificiality of subject matter and styling out of keeping with sacred scripture this is a purely subjective evaluation the apocryphal books demonstrate the same categories and forms of writing found in the other scriptures in fact one could argue that the apocryphal additions to the book of esther act rather to bring the unscripturelike book of esther more into line with other books they lack the distinctive elements which give genuine scripture their divine character such as prophetic power and poetic and religious feeling have you ever read the wisdom of ben sira or the wisdom of solomon they exhibit every bit as much poetic and religious feeling as psalms or proverbs deletions how do you then view the words i warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book if anyone adds anything to them god will add to him the plagues described in this book and if anyone takes away from this book the prophecy god will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city rev surely this sets the standard and not just man made traditions these words clearly were meant to refer to the book of revelation alone not to the whole body of scripture revelation itself was accepted very late into the canon the church simply did not see it as having a primary role of any kind in identifying and limiting scripture it is also noteworthy to consider jesus attitude he had no argument with the pharisees over any of the ot canon john and explained to his followers on the road to emmaus that in the law prophets and psalms which referred to him the ot division of scripture luke as well as in luke taking genesis to chronicles the jewish order we would say genesis to malachi as scripture jesus does not refer to the canon for the simple reason that in his day the canon had not been established as a closed collection the books of the apocrypha were part of the septuagint which was the bible of the early church the hebrew canon was not closed until c e the torah pentateuch law was established in jesus day as were the prophets with the exclusion of daniel the writings however were still in flux jesus does not refer to the writings only to the psalms which were part of them the books of the apocrypha were all part of the literature that was eventually sifted and separated to argue that jesus is referring to the jewish canonical order in luke is weak at best he is not quoting scripture but telling a chronological story and as mentioned above the hebrew canon especially in the present order did not exist as such in jesus day revdak netcom com
soc.religion.christian	re deuterocanonicals esp sirach larry larry l overacker shellgate llo uu psi com writes i not dave davis wrote the deutero canonical books were added much later in the church s history they do not have the same spiritual quality as the rest of scripture i do not believe the church that added these books was guided by the spirit in so doing and that is where this sort of discussion ultimately ends sorry i put my foot in my mouth concerning the church s history it is correct to say that the council of hippo listed the deuterocanonical books among those accepted for use in the church and that this was ratified by the council of carthage and by pope innoent i and gelasius i ad yet eerdman s history of the church says at the end of the fourth century views still differed in regard to the extent of the canon or the number of the books which should be acknowledged as divine and authoritative the jewish canon or the hebrew bible was universally received while the apocrypha added to the greek version of the septuagint were only in a general way accounted as books suitable for church reading and thus as a middle class between canonical and strictly apocryphal pseudonymous writings and justly for those books while they have great historical value and fill the gap between the old testament and the new all originated after the cessation of prophecy and the cannot be therefore regarded as inspired nor are they ever cited by christ or the aposteles in the western church the canon of both testaments was closed at the end of the fourth century through the authority of jerome who wavered however between critical doubts and the principle of tradition and more especially of augustine who firmly followed the alexandrian canon of the septuagint and the preponderant tradition in reference to the catholic epistles and the revelation though he himself in some places inclines to consider the old testament apocrypha as deutero canonical bearing a subordinate authority this history goes on to say that augustine attended both the council of hippo and of carthage it is interesting to note however the following footnote to the fourth session of the council of trent the footnote lists various synods which endorsed lists of canonical books but then says the tridentine list or decree was the first infallible and effectually promulgated declaration on the canon of the holy scriptures which leads one to think that the rc canon was not official until trent thus my previous erroneous statement was not entirely groundless it is also interesting to note that the council of trent went on to uphold the old latin vulgate edition of the scriptures as authentic which i would suppose today s catholic scholars wish the council had never said also the council made no distinction between deutero canonical and canonical books in contrast to eerdman s statement of the fourth century views david wagner a confessional lutheran
soc.religion.christian	praying for justice i recently came across this article which i found interesting i have posted it to hear what other people feel about the issue i realise it is rather long pages in wordperfect by may well be worth the read except for the first page which i typed the rest was scanned inusing omnipage some of the f s have come out as t s and visa versa i have tried to correct as much as possible about the author peter hammond is the founder of frontline fellowship a missionary organisation witnessing to the communist countries in southern africa he has also made several visits to many east european countries frontline fellowship news issn x praying for justice by peter hammond to those involved in ministering to christians suffering persecution the imprecatory psalms are a tremendous source of comfort and those of us who are fighting for the right to life of the preborn or battling social evils such as pornography or crime are beginning to appreciate what an important weapon god has entrusted to us in the imprecatory psalms the imprecatory psalms early in my christian walk i encountered the prayers for judgement in the psalms and was quite at loss to know how to respond to them prayers such as break the arm of the wicked and evil men call him to account for his wickedness psalm did not seem consistent with the gospel of love which i had accepted yet psalm was clearly motivated by love for god the lord is king for ever and ever the nation will perish from his land and why does the wicked man revile god and by love for the innocent who suffer you hear o lord the desire of the afflicted you encourage them and you listen to their cry defending the fatherless and oppressed in order that man who is of the earth may terrify no more nevertheless i grew increasingly uncomfortable reading such graphic prayers for god to judge the wicked as pour out your wrath on them let your fierce anger overtake them o lord the god avenges o god who avenges shine forth rise up o judge of the earth pay back to the proud what they deserve break the teeth in their mouths o god let them vanish like water let their arrows be blunted the righteous will be glad when they are avenged when they bathe their feet in the blood of the wicked then men will way surely the righteous still are rewarded surely there is a god who judges the earth certainly i wanted god to be honoured and yes i was deeply destressed by the prevalence of evil but could i actually pray for god to pour out his wrath on the wicked the scripture make it clear that these prayers are not to be prayed for own selfish motives nor against our personal enemies rather they are to be prayed in christ for his glory and against his enemies the psalmist describes the targets of these imprecation as those who devise injustice in their heart and whose hands mete out violence those who boast of evil and are a disgrace in the eyes of god your tongue plots destruction it is like a sharpened razor and you who practise deceit you love evil rather than good falsehood rather than speaking the truth they crush your people they slay the widow and the alien they murder the fatherless with cunning they conspire against your people they plot against those you cherish you hate all who do wrong you destroy those who tell lies bloodthirsty and deceitful men the lord abhors to those unrepentant enemies of god the psalmist declares surely god will bring you down to everlasting ruin surely god will crush the heads of his enemies of those who go on in their sins and the purpose of these prayers for justice is declared then it will be known to the ends of the earth that god rules to proclaim the powers of god all kings will bow down to him and all nations will serve him who knows the power of your anger for your wrath is as great as the fear that is due you yet despite the fact that of the psalms include imprecations prayers invoking god s righteous judgement upon the wicked such prayers are rare in the average western church however amongst the persecuted churches these prayers are much more common praying against the persecutors amidst the burnt out churches and devastation of marxist angola i found the survivors of communist persecution including the crippled and maimed and widows and orphans praying for god to strike down the wicked and remove the persecutors of the church i was shocked yet it was biblical even the martyrs in heaven pray how long sovereign lord holy and true until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood revelation the initiator of the communist persecution in angola was agestino neto described as a drunken psychotic marxist poet neto had been installed by cuban troops as the first dictator of angola he boasted that within years there won t be a bible or a church left in angola i will have eradicated christianity yet despite the vicious wave of church burning and massacres it is not christianity that was eradicated in angola but agestino neto neto died in mysterious circumstances on an operating table in moscow in romania i learnt of a series of remarkable incidents recorded of god judging the persecutors of the church in answer to prayer a communist official ordered a certain pastor to be arrested the next day the official died of a heart attack another communist party official ordered that all the bibles in his district were to be collected and pulped to be turned into toilet paper this blasphemous project was in fact carried out but the next day when the official was medically examined he was informed that he had terminal cancer he died shortly afterwards on another occasion a communist official who had ordered a baptist church to be demolished by bulldozers died in a car crash the very next day when an order was given to dismantle a place of worship on the mountainside in a forest the workmen flatly refused to carry out the order at gunpoint a group of conscripted gypsies also refused to touch the church in desperation the communist police forced prisoners at bayonet point to dismantle the structure yet the officer in charge pleaded with the local christians to pray for him that god would not judge him he emphasised that he had nothing against christians and was only obeying strict orders the building was in fact reconstructed later and again used for worship they were all seized with sear and the name of the lord jesus was held in high honour in this way the word of the lord spread widely and grew in power acts nicolae ceaucescu the dictator who ordered much of the persecution in romania was overthrown by his own army and executed on christmas day to joyous shouts of the antichrist is dead in the streets many testified that this was in answer to the fervent prayers of the long suffering people of romania another persecutor of the church who challenged god was samora machel the first dictator of marxist mozambique samora machel was a cannibal who ate human flesh in witchcraft ceremonies in the s he pledged his soul to satan and vowed that he would destroy the church and turn mozambique into the first truly marxist leninist state in africa thousands of churches in mozambique were closed confiscated nationalised chained and padlocked burnt down or boarded up missionaries were expelled some being imprisoned first evangelism was forbidden bibles were ceremonially burnt and tens of thousands of christians including many pastors and elders were shipped off to concentration camps most were never seen again a month before his sudden death samora machel cursed god publicly and challenged him to prove his existence by striking him machel dead on october while several churches were specifically praying for god to stop the persecution in mozambique machel s soviet tupelov aircraft crashed in a violent thunderstorm the plane crashed metres within south africa s boundary with mozambique amidst the wreckage the marxist plans for overthrowing the government of malawi were discovered and published not only had god judged a blasphemer and a persecutor but he had also saved a country from persecution in the months leading up to the first multi party elections in zambia many churches fasted and prayed tor god to remove the year socialist dictatorship of kenneth kaunda this was done on st october when fredrick chiluba a man converted to christ whilst imprisoned for opposing kaunda was elected president of zambia and covenanted to make zambia a christian country it is recorded in history that the wicked mary queen of scots declared trembling and in tears i am more afraid of john knox s prayers than of an army of ten thousand on april the secretary general of the south african communist party chris hani was shot dead from the unprecedented international wave of condolences and adulation reported one could be forgiven for assuming that this man was a saint and a martyr certainly it was not the death and resurrection of christ jesus which dominated the thoughts and headlines of south africa this easter but the assassination of chris hani the stunning hypocrisy of the situation is that people were murdered in south africa in yet more collective concern and anguish were reported over the death of the head of the sa communist party than for all the thousands of other victims indeed the sa government the international community and the mass media have apparently had greater sorrow reported over this one death than for all the south africans murdered since nd february when the anc sacp and pac were unbanned yet as a member of the anc revolutionary council since deputy commander of umkhonto we sizwe mk the anc s military wing from and chief of staff of mk from chris hani had approved and ordered bombings and assassinations of many unarmed civilians as jesus warned all who live by the sword will die by the sword matt after personally confronting hani about his terrorist activities at a press conference in washington dc where he publicly declared his support for fidel castro col gaddafi yasser arafat and saddam hussein and defended the placing of car bombs and limpet mines in public places during the struggle i told him that i was a christian and while i didn t hate him i did hate communism and i was praying for him that god would either bring him to repentance and salvation in christ or that god would remove him he responded by swearing and declaring that he was an atheist several other people also prayed that god would either bring hani to repentance or remove him similarly several churches in america have begun to pray the imprecatory psalms against unrepentant abortionists in one town abortionists were struck down with heart attacks strokes car accidents and cancer within months of these public prayers for god to stop these killers of preborn babies some praised god for his righteous acts of judgement and quoted when justice is done it brings joy to the righteous and terror to evildoers proverbs others were shocked that any christian could express satisfaction at the misfortune of any even of the blatantly wicked yet the apostles prayed imprecatory prayers acts galatians tim and so did our lord matt what then should our attitude towards the imprecatory psalms be should we be praying the psalms to tackle these thorny issues i would like to present a short summary of an excellent book war psalms of the prince of peace lessons from the imprecatory psalms by james e adams published by the presbyterian and reformed publishing company our lord jesus christ his apostles used the psalms constantly in teaching men to know god the new testament nt quotes the old testament ot over times of all ot quotes in the nt are from the psalms christ himself alluded to the psalms over times the psalms are the prayer book of the bible are the imprecatory psalms the oracles of god some christian commentators theologians reject these psalms as devilish diabolical unsuited to the church and not god s pronouncements of his wrath on the wicked but the prayers of a man for vengeance on his enemies just the opposite of jesus teaching that we should love our enemies yet tim declares all scripture is god breathed and is useful for teaching rebuking correcting and training in righteousness so that the man of god may be thoroughly equipped for every good work see also peter the fact that something in the word of god is beyond our comprehension is not grounds to denying or even questioning its inspiration to make ourselves the judge of what is good or evil is to impudently take the place of god do we imagine ourselves to be holier than god wrong ideas of god have led many to become evangelic plastic surgeons who have made it their job to clean up god s word according to their own ideas of what is proper they have forgotten that it is god alone who must determine what christianity is and what is suitable for his church the essence of what many have done is to question the authority of god s word like eve s original sin of listening to satan s question yes hath god said the psalms are part of god s revelation of himself and his attributes and they are reaffirmed by the nt as the authoritative word of god those imprecatory psalms which these evangelical plastic surgeons reject as unsuited and unworthy for the church are the very psalms christ used to testify about himself eg mark matt and which the apostles used as authoritative scripture eg acts acts heb see also samuel ch spurgeon said concerning the imprecatory psalms especially ps truly this is one of the hard places of scripture a passage which the soul trembles to read yet it is not ours to sit in judgement upon it but to bow our ear to what the lord would speak to us therein the rejection of any part of god s word is a rejection of the giver of that word god himself who is praying these psalms christ quoted the psalms not merely as prophesy he actually spoke the psalms as his own words the psalms occupied an enormous place in the life of our lord he used it as his prayer book and song book from the synagogue to the festivals and at the last supper on the cross christ quoted from the psalms not as some ancient authority that he adapted for his own use but as his very own words the words of the lord s anointed which as david s son he truly was father into your hands i commit my spirit ps my god my god why have you forsaken me ps in his ministry christ foretells what he will say as the judge on the day of judgement and he quotes the psalms in doing so matt then i will tell them plainly i never knew you away from me you evildoers ps in heb the apostle attributes ps directly to christ although nowhere in the gospels is christ recorded as having said these words similarly hebrews attributes ps directly to christ despite there being no record of his having spoken these words while on earth clearly the apostles believed christ is speaking in the psalms christ came to establish his kingdom and to extend his mercy in all the earth but let us never forget that jesus will come again to execute judgement on the wicked david as the anointed king of the chosen people of god was a prototype of jesus christ acts being therefore a prophet he foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of christ david was a witness to christ in his office in his lite and in his words the same words which david spoke the future messiah spoke through him the prayers of david were prayed also by christ or better christ himself prayed these psalms through his forerunner david the imprecatory psalms are expressions of the infinite justice of god of his indignation against wrong doing and his compassion for the wronged but what about the psalms of repentance christ is also the lamb of god the substitutionary sacrifice for our sins christ in the day of his crucifixion was charged with the sin of his people he appropriated to himself those debts for which he had made himself responsible our lord was the substitution for the sinner he took the sinners place isaiah god made him who had no sin to be sin for us so that in him we might become the righteousness of god cor in history the psalms especially the imprecatory psalms have been understood to have been the prayers of christ by st augustine jerome ambrose tertullian luther and many others all the psalms are the voice of christ christ is praying the imprecatory psalms all the psalms are messianic it is the lord jesus christ who is praying these prayers of vengeance it is only right for the righteous king of peace to ask god to destroy his enemies these prayers signal an alarm to all who are still enemies of king jesus his prayers will be answered god s word is revealed upon all who oppose christ anyone who rejects god s way of forgiveness in the cross of christ will bear the dreadful curses of god he who prays psalm will one day make this prayer a reality when he declares to those on his left depart from me you who are cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels matt all the enemies of the lord need to hear these psalms god s kingdom is at war the powers of evil will tall and god alone will reign forever with justice he judges and makes war out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations he will rule them with an iron sceptre he treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of god almighty king of kings and lord of lords rev are jesus prayers contradictory what about jesus command to love our enemies and to bless those who curse us matt christ is of course the loving and merciful saviour who forgives sin but he is also the awesome judge who is coming in judgement on those who disobey his gospel god is just he will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled this will happen when the lord jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels he will punish those who do not obey the gospel of our lord jesus they will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marvelled at among au those who have believed thess jesus has power on earth to forgive sins and he has power on earth to execute judgement upon his enemies in the psalms we see both the vengeance and the love ot god even in the n t in the gospels we see imprecations woe to you hypocrites blind guides blind fools full of greed and self indulgence whitewashed tombs you snakes you brood of vipers how will you escape being condemned to hell matt in matt christ quotes from ps and to refer to his betrayal by judas we also need to acknowledge that christ s prayers of blessing are not for all in john it is clear that christ is only praying to the elect of god those who have obeyed your word accepted god s word and have believed see luke those who reject the message of god s kingdom will be judged may we pray the imprecatory psalms martin luther pointed out that when one prays hallowed be thy name thy kingdom come thy will be done then he must put all the opposition to this in one pile and say curses maledictions and disgrace upon every other name and every other kingdom may they be ruined and torn apart and may all their schemes and wisdom and plans run aground to pray tor the extension of god s kingdom is to solicit the destruction of all other kingdoms eg dan the god of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed it will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end but it will itself endure forever advance and victory for the church means defeat and retreat for the kingdom of darkness there is a life death struggle between two kingdoms the church cannot exclude hatred tor satan s kingdom from its love for god s kingdom god s kingdom cannot come without satan s kingdom being destroyed god s will cannot be done on earth without the destruction of evil the glory of god demands the destruction of evil instead of being influenced by a sickly sentimentalism which insists upon the assumed but really non existent rights of man we should focus instead upon the rights of god note psalm where the psalmist prays against those who plot together against god and his people cover their faces with shame so that men will seek your name o lord do to them as you did to midian as you did to sisera and jabin at the river kishon who perished at endor and became like refuse on the ground the story of sisera in the book of judges chapter and provides a vivid example of god s judgement on the wicked sisera cruelly oppressed the israelites for twenty years and they cried to the lord for help judges in response to those prayers the lord routed sisera and all his chariots and army by the sword and sisera abandoned his chariot and fled on foot all the troops of sisera fell by the sword not a man was left judges the account then goes on to describe how sisera escaped to the tent of jael where she lulled him into a false sense of safety and then drove a tent peg through his temple with a hammer the song of victory by deborah and barak celebrated the crushing of the head of sisera in graphic detail judges and it is this that psalm implores god to again do to his enemies as you did to sisera the blessings of obedience and the curse of disobedience the imprecatory psalms are fully consistent with the law of god if you do not carefully follow all the words of this law which are written in this book and do not revere this glorious and awesome name the lord your god the lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants he will bring upon you all the diseases of egypt that you dreaded and they will cling to you the lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this book of the law until you are destroyed because you did not obey the lord your god so it will please him to ruin and destroy you you will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess deuteronomy the covenant god made with his people included curses for disobedience as well as blessings for obedience deuteronomy records the formal giving and receiving of the covenant terms in an awesome account the levites shall recite to all the people of israel in a loud voice cursed is the man who carves an image or casts an idol a thing detestable to the lord the work of the craftsman s hands and sets it up in secret then all the people shall say amen cursed is the man who dishonours his father or his mother cursed is the man who moves his neighbour s boundary stone cursed is the man who leads the blind astray on the roads cursed is the man who withholds justice from the alien the fatherless or the widow cursed is the man who kills his neighbour secretly cursed is the man who accepts a bribe to kill an innocent person cursed is the man who does not uphold the words of the law by carrying them out then all the people shall say amen deut the new testament confirms that the inevitable consequence of rejecting christ is the curse if anyone does not love the lord a curse be on him corinthians see also romans hebrews how can we preach these prayers the church of jesus christ is an army under orders scripture constitutes the official dispatch from the commander in chief but we have a problem those who are called to pass on those orders to others are refusing to do so how then can we expect to be a united effective army is it any wonder that the troops have lost sight of their commission to demolish the strongholds of the kingdom of darkness if the church does not hear the battle cries of her captain how will she follow him onto the battlefield pastors are commissioned to pass on the orders of the church s commander never withholding or changing his words one whose job is to carry dispatches to troops in wartime would face certain and severe punishment if he dared to amend the general s orders the pastor s charge is of greater importance than that of a courier in any earthly army there s no place tor the dispatcher to decide he doesn t agree with his commander s strategy when jesus christ sent seventy two disciples on a preaching mission he told them to proclaim the coming of god s kingdom lk that is to announce that people must submit to god s rule in their lives jesus instructed them to pray for peace on any house they approach assuring them that if anyone rejected it the peace would return on the disciples verse but we must consider what he said they should do if their message were rejected that is if the hearers persisted in rebellion against god s rule but when you enter a town and are not welcomed go into its streets and say even the dust of your town that sticks to our feet we wipe off against you yet be sure of this the kingdom of god is near luke what would be the result of that denunciation i tell you it will be more bearable on that day for sodom on which god sent fire from heaven in judgement for its wickedness than for that town verse immediately jesus added curses on korazin bethsaida and capernaum tor their rejection of his message verses he then explained to the disciples the great authority he had given them he who listens to you listens to me he who rejects you rejects me but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me verse this is the fundamental basis tor calling down god s curses on anyone his persistent rebellion against god s authority expressed in his law and the ministry of his servants we need to clearly and forcefully proclaim the war cries of the prince of peace only then will the church awake from its lethargy and once again enter the battle if we tail to pass on the battle cry then a lack of urgency and confusion in the ranks will be inevitable like psalm our preaching needs to clearly show the blessings of obedience and the curse of disobedience the eternal truth is that god cannot be mocked whatever a man sows that shall he reap galatians the curses pronounced on disobedience in deut were fulfilled in detail in samaria kings and in judea ad the wrath of god upon covenant breakers is real the i of the psalms is jesus christ the we of the psalms includes those of us in the lord jesus the enemies are not our own individually but those of the lord and of his church the psalms are ot christ as prophet priest and king they record christ s march in victory against the kingdom of darkness as christ is the author of the psalms so too is he the final fulfilment of the covenant on which they are based god will answer the psalmist s prayers completely in jesus christ on the final day of judgment while on earth jesus foretold the day when he will say but those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them bring them here and kill them in front of me luke a fatal end awaits everyone who refuses to acknowledge and to obey jesus as king and lord hearing expositions of these war psalms of the prince of peace will remind his people that god s kingdom is at war the kingdom of darkness is being overcome by the kingdom of jesus christ a war in which each local congregation of believers plays a vital part you must rally your battalion to put on the whole armour of god including the sword of the spirit which is the word of god eph that battle readiness also involves pray ing in the spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests n eph christ teaches his army to pray for the utter destruction of the enemies of god as the psalmist did pour out your wrath on the nations that do not acknowledge you on the kingdoms that do not call on your name ps to deal with the very real hurts and injustices in this world it is necessary for us to pray for god s justice those who are persecuted need the comfort of these prayers let the saints rejoice in his honour and sing for joy may the praise of god be in their mouths and a double edged sword in their hands to inflict vengeance on the nations and punishment on the peoples to bind their kings with fetters their nobles with shackles of iron to carry out the sentences written against them this is the glory of all his saints praise the lord ps prayer is in fact spiritual warfare one weapon is prayer for conversion of spiritual enemies another is prayer for judgement on those who finally refuse to be converted we handicap the army of god when we refuse to use both of these great weapons that he has given us it is at all times a part of the task of the people nf god to destroy evil if you have been guilty of dulling your sword by neglecting or undermining these psalms repent of that sin sharpen your sword anew and go forth to do battle in the name and for the glory of jesus until the knowledge of the lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea hab the full book war psalms of the prince of peace is available at r from frontline fellowship po box newlands rsa permission to reproduce those wishing to reproduce or quote from any edition of ff news are encouraged to do so we only request that due acknowledgement of the source be mentioned and that a copy be sent to us
soc.religion.christian	re deuterocanonicals esp sirach what we call today the old testament was being written up to approx imately bce according to most modern scholars aside from the book of daniel the whole ot predates alexander the great these books were written predominantly in hebrew there were also other books being written at about this time and later by greek speaking or hellenistic jews these books are those which are reckoned by many denominations as apocrypha before the closing of the writings the third part of what is today called the canon all of the books were in use by jews of the day however there were those who reckoned based on zech that prophecy had ceased this faction maintained that there were no true prophets in their day they also maintained that literature of a prophetic character could not be genuine teachings from god by the time of c ce another faction had entered the mess christians had come in claiming that their writings were also suitable to be read in synagogues and used for worship therefore the palestinian jewish leaders got together and stated that the books written from the time of ben sira sirach onward were not sacred writings they justified this from zech in particular they said the writings of the christians called heretics were not inspired at about ce they codified things further by closing the canon in somewhat of an official sense at the council of jamnia a few books ecclesi astes song of songs esther made it in after that date but these were those which had been written prior to the official cut off point the time of ben sira for inclusion that they had established in order to keep out the christian and hellenistic writings jerome excluded the apocrypha because they were not in use by jews of his day and because they were except for sirach not found in hebrew in his time his criterion for separating them from the other pre christian writings was not based on inspiration there is plenty more to say but i do not have time the passage you quote concerns the book rev in which it is found frank d
soc.religion.christian	boston c of c note the following article is submitted on behalf of someone frank daniels who has difficulty posting to s r c email replies to daniels math ufl edu i am unable to post to the bitnet groups here is a capsule history of the shepherding discipleship movement in the churches of christ i e crossroads boston i could trace the movement back as far as and indeed some of its roots go back that far but these were really influences on the movement and not the actual movement per se i will start in c in that day there were white churches and colored churches in nearly every area due to segregation modern pentecostalism was developing as a predominantly colored phenomenon here there was great fanaticism emphasis on emotional experiences and belief in a personal guidance and indwelling of the holy spirit many white protestant churches were growing into what became known as conservative fundamentalism by the s the evangelical movement was in full swing and many groups were becoming part of it when the civil rights movement grew stronger in the s and s many white church groups began to be influenced by the black churches and by what was going on there this spread started in the most liberal of groups and spread to the more conservative ones by the late s in even the catholic church was displaying evidence of influence by the other groups still evident today the churches of christ are and were a very conservative protestant group when the influence from outside began to reach the cofc in c it was generally not appreciated conservative groups are very strongly resistant to change and the new movement was very different from the cofc status quo the magazines put out at that time by cofc folks tell the story as it unfolds new ideas came into the cofc there was a big push to reach out to college students young adults and teens some called this the campus evangel ism movement emotions generally not highly regarded in the cofc at large played a more important role in the new movement in some places people began to speak in tongues as their pentecostal predecessors did this was met with extreme criticism from within the churches of christ in some places people were fired from their jobs for speaking in tongues or for advocating the holy spirit movement another name for the new branch the term underground church of christ also came into use because these people had to hide their differences or they might be ostricised there were several congregations however whose leaderships were receptive to the new ideas at least in part the tongues speaking never really caught on one of these was the th street church of christ in gainesville fl campus ministry had already been regarded as important at th street and the new ideas seemed to be very helpful tools for evangelism they also seemed to put vitality into the church which many felt had been lacking in october of the th street congregation hired chuck lucas to be its campus minister by he would move to being the congregation s lead minister in the late s early s the congregation worked with many other groups they held bible discussions at daytona beach during spring break they organized talks in the fraternities on the university of florida campus they also worked with uf sports people in the congregation ordered a larger building to be constructed when it was finished the group moved and changed its name now no longer appropriate it became the crossroads church of christ from then on a name that would become legendary by this time crossroads was basically the only cofc whose programs were fully aligned to the new movement while they didn t start it they continued it and were responsible for where it wound up going by none of the other churches of christ in the area felt that they could cooperate with crossroads due to what they recognized as doctrinal problems at crossroads crossroads had begun to heavily emphasize and later require attendance at all church functions it was seen as a good thing for each member to have at least one close relationship a person with whom you would share all of your problems pray and get help from the concept was called prayer partners which later became discipleship partners and also later became mandatory the leadership was assigning prayer partners to people for a while the book called the master plan of evangelism was a strong influence on chuck lucas he and the group believed that it was every person s duty and life purpose to carry out the great commission crossroads was growing in number and numbers became very important some would say all important a person who was evangelistic was spiritual evangelism meant inviting people to crossroads events if you did this a lot and some of them converted then you were spiritual there were sermons about how if you bought groceries the cashier and bag boy ought to receive invitations to services everyone at your job ought to receive invitations since these people needed jesus you should be aggressive don t take no for an answer if you did not evangelize enough you came to be called lazy or unspiritual by the end of the decade the prayer partner system was integrated into a structure the elders and ministers were on top like a big pyramid then the group leaders bible study leaders and members everyone who came in had someone placed over them it is at this time that the bad press about crossroads began to circulate the problem with rape on the university of florida campus was tremendous but crossroads was considered a bigger and more immediate problem there were many complaints about the congregation and its pushy evangelistic tactics crossroads was considering the other churches of christ to be dead churches which aggravated them it was aggressively recruiting out of the other church groups denominations which aggravated them by this time crossroads had grown numerically to the point where not only did they believe that they would soon need a new building but also they were sending out planting create a new church and reconstructing reorganize an existing church teams to other cities by this time the crossroads movement was underway a group was sent to the member lexington church of christ in boston ma the team was headed up by kip mckean who had been converted out of a fraternity by crossroads in gainesville kip held a still stronger view of church authority which he believed was heavily vested in the evangelist s and not so much in the elders he had been fired in from the congregation that he had been working at when the elders there found numerous things wrong with his theology including the practice of what came to be called one over one christianity called this by critics in the first year half of the people felt that they did not want to be a part of the new congregation they left but others began coming into the new boston church of christ ah but i m ahead of myself at crossroads the heavy handed system had begun to take its toll on the members many have said that they felt that they were working hard but they were not achieving the results that were so important the numbers were dropping from crossroads membership declined steadily the leadership began to tighten the reigns on the congregation who was seen as being largely unproductive and unfruitful the fruit passages in the nt were interpreted as referring to new converts if you were not bearing fruit said john you would be cast into the fire boston still teaches this if you love your neighbor you ll save his soul invite him to church and convert him if you re not doing that you don t love your neighbor and if you don t love you re in danger of backsliding the logical arguments continue in this vein in chuck lucas was fired from his job as minister due to recurring sins in his life these struggles were never revealed to the congregation at large although many people outside the congregation had heard about them for by now there was very little contact on a friendship level between most crossroads members and those outside if you have contact your focus should be on converting them bring them to a bible study chuck s replacement was joe woods who was fully supportive of the boston system as boston grew in number they began to offer training sessions for other ministers joe went to boston to be trained and returned to cross roads ready to emphasize the total commitment to the church that boston and kip mckean were now emphasizing eventually in fall of the elders at crossroads now in number dick whitehead and bill hogle made a decision boston was demanding that all of the other churches in the movement come under the direction of the church in boston the elders refused citing their belief that each church should be autonomous something true in all non boston churches of christ perhaps there was also some degree of offense done here since crossroads was no longer the example to the rest of the movement the group now numbered about while boston was now larger in membership the churches of christ generally teach that baptism is a necessary element of salvation at crossroads they taught what was called lordship baptism you had to understand the commitment involved before you could be baptized you had to count the cost at boston they took this a step further if at some time you became unproductive then your spirituality was suspect people would begin to ask you if you really understood what you were getting into anyone who said no had their baptism deemed invalid they hadn t counted the cost properly they still had to be baptized others called this rebaptism and crossroads didn t approve of this practice when crossroads announced that it would not follow boston many of its members left crossroads and went to movement related ministries which were now called discipling ministries you were either discipling evangelizing or you were dead they also used the nickname movement of god for a while by summer of crossroads was withdrawn from the movement and now stood alone they had few to no allies in the mainstream churches of christ and now none in the movement boston however continued to chart its course in the direction that they had been following they sent reconstruction teams to many cities which usually meant that they split the church there they stopped acknowledging other churches of christ as christians and began to call themselves the remnant the remnant of the jews in the ot are those who are saved by god it was felt that the remnant today represents all the christians sometimes they would simply call their movement the church they usually took the name of the city for their name implying to the other churches of christ that boston did not recognize their existence many campuses have now formally forbidden boston ministries from recruiting there due to the number of complaints in some cases it has been documented that boston ministries have lied to university officials in order to continue to have access to the campus any resistance that they experience is termed perse cution which all true christians are expected to experience are you really a christian if you re not being persecuted the numbers at boston peaked at c in since then they have fought to remain steady i have heard a tape of kip mckean shouting at the leaders for failing to fulfill the great commission their life s purpose as god commanded them their christianity is highly centered on commands and obedience crossroads once was called a cult boston is now recognized by the cult awareness network and other national and international groups as a cult under a formal definition because of the techniques which they employ the term cult is usually differentiated from sect by the practice of those techniques the techniques which they employ are recognized by many as being techniques of destructive pursuasion also used by other shepherding discipleship groups robert jay lifton margaret thaler singer and many others have written about the topic these techniques include guilt motivation emotional manipulation loaded language the aura of sacred science a sort of mystic element seen in everyday events and others i have no particular axe to grind against the movement i have numer ous friends who are still part of the movement i have never had a falling out with anyone in the movement i disagree with many things which they teach i recognize the psychological damage done by being involved in such a system i hold no loyalty to the mainstream churches of christ and do not defend their mistakes either i want to point out though that unlike in many other systems which are in other ways similar the leadership of the boston movement are as much victims of the system as the members we do not have a leader who enjoys manipulating his people the leaders believe what they teach and they feel accountable for the activites and spiritual welfare of the members when members do not evangelize to their expectations for example the leaders feel personally responsible as well the leaders are not out for money or power they want to evangelize the world in their lifetime i have said too much but there is much more to say there are many examples i could give and quotes from other sources including boston bulletins that i could include but this is too long already you may post this if you so desire frank d answer not a fool according to his folly lest thou also be like unto him answer a fool according to his folly lest he be wise in his own conceit proverbs believe it or not questions about the boston church of christ are among the most commonly asked in order to avoid having s r c dealing with this on a continuous basis i allow discussion only periodically by now i ve got a k faq file which has both sides by the way this gives enough addition information on history that it seems worth posting and adding to the faq clh
soc.religion.christian	re if there were no hell larry l overacker writes q if you knew beyond all doubt that hell did not exist and that unbelievers simply remained dead would you remain a christian my contention is that if you answer this question with no i would not then remain a christian then you really are not one now i follow christ because it s a great way to live life and i could care less what really happens after i die i believe that there will be a resurrection but that won t have any effect on how i live this life ouch this is a good question to me not existing is worse than existing no matter what so i will modify this question to be would i be a christian if it made no eternal difference in my reward or punishment i hope this is in the same spirit you want i personally am very goal oriented it is hard for me to do things that do not achieve some goal however to relate this to sports only after i learned to not care about the score did i become a good basketball player i had to learn to go all out no matter the situation perhaps this lesson is relevent after all only if i can give up my life can i keep it only if i am humble can i achieve glory only if i concentrate on living my life now the best i can will i be afforded life eternal i think you have illuminated the true meaning of saved by faith but what is my answer right now i would remain a christian however was that always my answer that s the problem heaven and hell are good motivators at certain stages of maturity and i admit there are certain times when perhaps i bite my tongue and put up with something in the hope of a better day i e i mentally trade present happiness for future happiness i hope the cynics and skeptics do not read more into that than appropriate but i am trying to be honest scott a mayo writes of course but it is a pointless question because you cannot know beyond all doubt that hell does not exist anymore than you can know it does short of taking jesus s word for it what if questions are fun and entertaining but probably fruitless i think these kinds of questions are extremely fruitful i guess it depends on how one views knowledge and learning by stripping ideas to simple straightforward opposing concepts we can determine levels of importance by analyzing the theoretically absurd we can gain a better understanding of the actually absurd chris mussack
soc.religion.christian	re why do people become atheists apology in article may athos rutgers edu maxwell c muir muirm argon gas organpipe uug arizona edu writes instead i m still faced with the implication that atheism is some kind of aberration and that only broken people are atheist again as the original poster of the article i apologize if it implied that atheism brokenness such was not my intent and i apologize for any hurt feelings in the process filipp sapienza department of technology services university of michigan hospitals surgery fil sapienza med umich edu
soc.religion.christian	re mormon beliefs about children born out of wedlock bruce webster writes indeed lds doctrine goes one step further and in some cases holds parents responsible for their children s sins if they have failed to bring them up properly cf d c note that this passage applies it only to members of the lds church hi bruce how do you reconcile this practice with ezekiel ezekiel the soul who sins is the one who will die the son will not share the guilt of the father nor will the father share the guilt of the son the righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him is ezekiel not translated correctly in your eyes perhaps sincerely aaron cardenas p s i too am bothered to see offensive words being posted on this newsgroup obscenity is out of place for anyone who wants to live by the bible eph moderator i would appreciate your not letting posts with foul language through which has happened at least twice lately thank you i try to avoid foul language bastard is certainly foul language when shouted at someone as an insult but in this case it was being used in its original technical sense similarly hell is an obscenity in some contexts but not when referring to the afterlife it is not clear to me that bastard is foul language when it s being used in its proper meaning one of today s postings quotes deut am i to prohibit that clh
soc.religion.christian	re atheists and hell on sunday may kenneth engel writes in substance we are told that the penalty for sin is an eternity in hell we are told that jesus paid the penalty suffering in our stead but jesus did not spend an eternity in hell this objection presupposes the forensic substitution theory of the atonement not everyone who believes in the atonement understands it in those terms for an expansion of this statement send the messages get gen ruff get gen ruff get gen ruff get gen ruff to listserv asuacad bitnet or to listserv asuvm inre asu edu note that the character after the gen is a zero if you want to read my opun from the beginning start with gen yours james kiefer
soc.religion.christian	who prays speaks in tongues for those who pray in tongues when is it appropriate for you to pray speak in tongues and why i just would like to gain more knowledge about this subject o western kentucky university easteee wkuvx bitnet
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity in article may athos rutgers edu carlson ab larc nasa gov ann carlson writes in article may athos rutgers edu anyone who thinks being gay and christianity are not compatible should check out dignity integrity more light presbyterian churches affirmation mcc churches etc meet some gay christians find out who they are pray with them discuss scripture with them and only then form your opinion i would absolutly love to have the time and energy to do so the problem is to be totally fair i would have to go throught this type of search on every issue i belive in i don t have the time resources or ability to do what you ask maybe you should pray that god gives me the opportunity instead of simply discrediting me because i have not been able to talk to every gay christian in christ s love bryan
soc.religion.christian	re incarnation two minds of christ nabil wrote both families agree that he who wills and acts is always the one hypostasis of the logos incarnate marhaba nabil if we posit two minds in christ the mind of the logos and the mind of the human jesus then we must admit two wills a mind is not a mind without a will i know this has been dealt with in past church prnouncements but there is a philosophical problem here that should examined t v morris argued that the incarnation can be seen like this mind of logos here the mind of jesus is circumsribed by god the human son god the son has complete access to the human mind mind but the human mind only has access to the mind of god the son when the son allows access this explains why jesus said even he did not know the time of the kingdom the human will acted in accordance with the divine will according to free human decision but if the human will would have decided differently than what was intended the divine will would have interceded but this was never the case he employs some very interesting analogies to support the one person two mind theory the ideas of a completely healthy version of split personality from the field of psychology and the intriguing ideas of being in a dream seeing yourself acting knowing that is you but also being omniscient the one hypostasis would be the unity of the two minds agreed but i am still waiting for morris and others to respond to the lingering problem of two minds making two persons christian analytic philosophers are breaking new ground in explicating the rationality of theism and the incarnation ted kalivoda tedr athena cs uga edu university of georgia athens institute of higher ed note that person is being used in a more abstact sense here than the english we connect person with personality and other things that are human attributes i m not entirely sure whether i d want to apply personality to god but if it is appropriate then i think we d have to say that christ had two personalities clh
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity in article may athos rutgers edu carlson ab larc nasa gov ann carlson writes bible verses ag used ag homosexuality deleted anyone who thinks being gay and christianity are not compatible should check out dignity integrity more light presbyterian churches affirmation mcc churches etc meet some gay christians find out who they are pray with them discuss scripture with them and only then form your opinion also check out the episcopal church although by no means all episcopalians are sympathetic to homosexual men and women there certainly is a fairly large percentage in my experience who are i am good friends with an episcopalian minister who is ordained and living in a monogamous homosexual relationship this in no way diminishes his ability to minister in fact he has a very significant ministry with the gay and lesbian association of his community as well as a very significant aids ministry my uncle is gay and when i found this out i had a good long think about what the bible has to say about this and what i feel god thinks about this obviously my conclusions may be wrong nonetheless they are my own and they feel right to me i believe that the one important thing that those who wrote the old and new testament passages cited above did not know was that there is scientific evidence to support that homosexuality is at least partly inherent rather than completely learned this means that to a certain extent or to a great extent homosexuals cannot choose how to feel about other people which is why reports of curing homosexuals always chill me and make me feel ill please not that although i can t cite sources where you can find this information there is homosexual behavior recorded among monkeys and other animals which is in itself suggestive that it is inherent rather than learned or at least that the word unnatural shouldn t really apply please remember that whatever you believe gays and lesbians shoul not be excluded from your love and acceptance christ loved us all and we all sin and he himself never said anything against homosexuals rather it is paul who also came out with such wonderful wisdom as women shouldn t speak in church and women should keep their heads covered in church not exact quotations as i don t have my bible handy who says these things i have a tendency to take some of the things paul says with a grain of salt well that s all i ll say for now dr ann b carlson a b carlson larc nasa gov o ms o nasa langley research center hampton va vera noyes the lord is risen indeed let s party noye midway uchicago edu vera noyes
soc.religion.christian	re the doctrine of original sin in article may athos rutgers edu eugene bigelow ebay sun com geno writes nothing unclean shall enter heaven rev therefore babies are born in such a state that should they die they are cuf off from god and put in hell which is exactly the doctrine of st augustine and st thomas jeff adams regarding the first paragraph i would say that i didn t write it i don t believe that unbaptized babies are put in hell i don t even believe in hell at least i don t believe in a fiery place where there will be gnashing of teeth geno
soc.religion.christian	re why do people become atheists in article may athos rutgers edu muirm argon gas organpipe uug arizona edu maxwell c muir writes a lot of stuff deleted i m focusing on just one point well he got me there i am a strong atheist because i feel that lack of evidence especially about something like an omnipotent being implies lack of existence however i haven t met the strong atheist yet who said that nothing could ever persuade him call me a seeker if you like i don t weak atheism is being ignore here though some atheists simply say i don t believe in any god rather than my position i believe that no god s exist for the weak atheist the is no atheism to disbelieve because they don t actively believe in atheism if you think this is confusing try figuring out the difference between protestants and methodists from an atheist point of view i m a little confused about the difference between this weak atheism as you put it and agnosticism is agnosticism not believing or necessarily disbelieving in anything or what is it i used to be agnostic by this definition but if weak atheism includes not necessarily believing in god then i guess i was one of those actually what i have a hard time understanding is people who do not ever decide what they believe i am constantly in a state of self examination as it would appear many others are as well including the atheists of course i d assume that s why they re here i guess some people don t really consider it important to think about the answers to life the universe and everything any comment just wondering this is another fallacy many theists seem to have that everyone believes in something followed up by everyone has faith in something guess what my atheism ends the moment i m shown a proof of some god s existence is that really too much to ask tough call as these things seem to be based on faith wish i could help you but i already tried once with someone who was a self professed agnostic thinking of becoming a christian and it didn t work too well especially tough as i m still mulling over whether or not i believe in miracles looks like another email to my chaplain is coming up all i can do is wish you the best of luck and please do post what you find and i told you that i find faith to be intellectually dishonest note that i can only speak for myself if you find faith to be honest show me how hmm how so i guess i really don t understand there are times of course when i say to myself of course i have absolutely no way of knowing that what i believe in is true except the satisfaction and sense of peace i get from it which of course could just be psychological somehow i live with this anyway is this what you mean the only proof i have is that i believe god spoke to me once which could of course be my own imagination the odd thing is though that if you don t at some point start believing in something after a while it all gets sort of ridiculous maybe it s just a question of where you draw the line i have been unable to reconcile it so far maybe that s how i m broken i tell you that i have invisible fairies living in my garden and that you should just take my word for it if you accept that you are of a fundamentally different mind than i and i really would like to know how you think all i ask for is proof of the assertion god exists logical or physical proofs only please then we ll discuss the nature of god i ll only add one question have you read pascal what did you think of him if you did also you may or may not be interested by cslewis surprised by joy i d be interested in knowing what you think of him no sarcasm at all intended i just say this because one can never know how one s written words will be interpreted i am not interested in converting you since i don t seem to have whatever it would take proof to do so i m just interested in learning muppets and garlic toast forever i like this max bob muir cheers vera i give you everything disclaimer of course i don t agree with my sweet everything trent reznor s nin s theology i think nine inch nails it s interesting nonetheless noye midway uchicago edu vera noyes
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity any attempts to make homosexuals feel unwelcome because of our discomfort with homosexuality is incompatible with christianity is our hatred so deep that rather than see someone try to become closer to jesus we need to keep them away this is too often true many people try to place this as a higher sin however does jesus need us to screen out those guilty of a particular sin do we really mistrust jesus when he says he can forgive any sin a big part of the problem is that many of the homosexuals and people advocating acceptance of homosexuality in churches do not consider active homosexuality a sin i don t often see the attitude of forgive me and i will try to change instead i see there s nothing wrong with my life and i can be a good christian so it must be you who have an illness because you don t accept me christians can and will accept homosexuals just as they will accept any sinner sure it may be natural to some people to be homosexual but it is also perfectly natural for everyone to sin i was born with a desire to sin but i work to prevent myself from sinning it s much less common now but i still have urges to lash out in anger there also may not be a sudden disappearance of sinful desires or ever so it is sad to see people leave the church when they are discouraged that they are still homosexual after several years darin johnson djohnson ucsd edu particle man particle man doing the things a particle can
soc.religion.christian	hyslop and the two babylons seeing as how the two babylons has been brought up again it is time for me to respond once again and say that this book is junk it is nothing more that an anti catholic tract of the sort published ever since the there were protestants its scholarship is phony and its assertions spurious c wingate the peace of god it is no peace but strife closed in the sod mangoe cs umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace of god
soc.religion.christian	re why do people become atheists in article may athos rutgers edu fil sapienza med umich edu fil sapienza writes in article may athos rutgers edu maxwell c muir muirm argon gas organpipe uug arizona edu writes of faith if you want to know i feel that faith is intellectually dishonest i d appreciate some support for this statement i m not sure it really makes sense to me i define faith as belief in the abscense sp of evidence i also include in evidence past experiences because i have no past experience in a god actually having an effect on my life and because i have never seen evidence for any god beyond what can be explained without the neccessity of a god or which is more convincing than the many fictional works i have read and other reasons i do not believe in any god s from what i have seen some people reconcile this lack of evidence by using faith it is faith in that sense the only way i currently understand the word faith that i find intellectually dishonest the ambiguity of religious beliefs an unwillingness to take pascal s wager i ve heard this frequently what exactly is pascal s wager pascal s wager goes something like this premise either there is or there isn t a god premise if god exists he wants us to believe and will damn us for not believing premise if god does not exist then belief in god doesn t matter because death is death anyway conclusion belief in god is superior to non belief because non belief damns us to eternal punishment if we are wrong while belief in god only wastes a little time in life if we are wrong sound pretty straightforward and is logically sound the problem is premise presupposes odds between belief and non belief this is flat out wrong because of the sheer number of religions out there and the fact that for the most part the religions are mutually exclusive i have heard theists referred to as atheists because they believe in their god or gods to be the one god or set of gods the consequence of this is what if i pick the wrong god suddenly the odds don t look so good because picking the wrong god or wrong doctrines of a god still leaves you with the possibility of being wrong and being damned to another god s version of hell do i sound broken to you i don t know you point out that your mother s treatment upset you and see inconsistencies in various religions i m not sure if that constitutes broken ness or not it certainly consititutes disillusionment i don t see how disillusionment enters into it you see i presented my mother s treatment of me to show the cause of my questioning my atheism a questioning which continues to this day i had already been an atheist for five years before having any contact with my mother s version of christianity if anything i had become somewhat disillusioned with atheism uh oh i thought what if there is a god yes in a way i have also become disillusioned by many religions simply because i had thought at one time that they had all the answers if i only found the right one i m still looking but each time i look in a different place i become a little stronger in my attitude belief if you will no faith though it s based on the evidence of past experience that i ll never find a religion which has all the answers sorta like looking for easter eggs the more time it takes you to find the next one the more convinced you become that you may already have found all the eggs you re going to find someone else mentioned that critisism isn t going to make me think any more highly of christians i have a contrary position constructive critisism will likely improve my attitude towards christians abusive critisism will turn me off no accusations to you mr sapienza i merely slipped that into this post because i forgot to reply to that one filipp sapienza department of technology services university of michigan hospitals surgery fil sapienza med umich edu muppets and garlic toast forever max bob muir ps i m leaving for home on thursday at so this is likely my last post here for the summer in the meantime thank you all for helping me see a few more things i might have missed in my meanderings through the world
soc.religion.christian	re why do people become atheists in article may athos rutgers edu mayne nu cs fsu edu writes in article may athos rutgers edu noye midway uchicago edu writes my stuff about dealing with defferences deleted this is not at all comparable christianity is the main stream in western culture you are trivializing the experiences of others i am sorry i did not mean to i think i understand how your experiences were much worse than the small bit of ridicule i have had to put up with i guess i didn t really understand before now i do i remember what it was like being different as a christian we were told all the time that we were different and in fact that only members of the our church were really christians though others who believed in god weren t as bad as atheists so we were a small minority that was nothing compared to being an atheist wow pretty conservative church please excuse me if this seems like a ridiculous understatement to you the only thing comparable would be a young child being christian being surrounded by staunch atheists including parents who actively persecute any religious tendancies both actual punishments and even worse emotional blackmail they would also have to have the whole mainstream society on their side maybe these conditions could have occured in the old soviet union not in a country with under god in its pledge of allegiance on a side note that under god wasn t in there until recently i believe my father who is in his sixties remembers saying the pledge of allegiance without that in there i don t know the history behind that though emotional blackmail ouch thank goodness i ll be neutral in my thanks here i was raised in a completely tolerant household so that i could make my own decisions i doubt it even then because children have to be taught to be christians and hence must have support somewhere so atheism doesn t have to be taught but christianity does i guess i can see that although i can see a child believing in some sort of god without anything other than his her own imagination as a basis sorry i guess this is sort of minor my query about parallel between lack of choice for homosexuals and lack of choice for him as an atheist deleted yes my atheism was born of necessity for an intellectually honest person belief is mostly a response to evidence hmm i wonder why i am a christian then this isn t a flame this is a real wonder does anyone else have opinions to offer on why you believe in something that hasn t necessarily been proven to you will or wishes have nothing to do with it i could choose to lie or to be silent about my true beliefs i could no more choose to believe in the god of christianity than i could decide that the ordinary sky looks red to me sounds like you are an atheist by nature then or is it possible that at least part of it is due to the apparently repressive nature of the christianity of your childhood if this is getting too personal perhaps you should ignore it or we can take it to email still i should be clear that i m not equating what i went through with what gays go through however it is a mistake to assume that everyone who goes through painful experiences are broken by them happily some are made stronger once we get past it this may have been a general remark you do not sound broken to me but indeed stronger i must say that i wasn t hurt by my experiences in church any more than some of my friends who didn t become atheists i was just hurt differently i m not sure i understand this sentence could you explain not without going to details and violating the confidences of some of my childhood friends suffice it say to that religion does not guarantee that a person will be happy and strong emotionally and a repressive upbringing can leave its scars even or especially on those who don t get free of it i doubt that any sane and sincere person doubts that and i feel no need to defend it yes i agree with that i ve seen some of the damage repressive religion can do and as a result i intend to raise my own children as much as i can to look around before accepting one religious stand atheism is included in this and to question everything this is very important by the way i am much happier and stronger being out of the closet in the end it has been as someone eloquently put it in private email an experience of liberation rather than disillusion i can see that bill mayne cheers vera je cherche une ame qui of course i don t agree with pourra m aider mylene farmer s religious views je suis i just think they re interesting d une generation desenchantee vera noyes mylene farmer noye midway uchicago edu
soc.religion.christian	re re major views of the trinity in article may athos rutgers edu bocher writes it seems that during the middle ages it was customary for pastors to explain the trinity to their parishoners by analogy to water water is water but can exist in three forms liquid ice and vapor thus it is possible for one essence to exist in three forms this sounds to me like a sort of generic modalism in the the three phases of water are but different modes of behavior of the same physical stuff it certainly does not seem to me to describe the orthodox position of course i suppose that the medieval view of water may have been different but now we know that the phases of water are just different behaviors of the same physical stuff different modes not different identities but perhaps the medieval people did not know that and recently the pastor of my church drew an analogy which i also found useful a woman is often percieved by others in three ways depending on their relationship to her a mother a wife and an employee in a business this is clearly modalistic monarchianism since these three aspects depend solely on point of view and are do not really represent actual variety within the person do you now begin to see why sarima teradata com formerly tdatirv sarima or stanley friesen elsegundoca ncr com
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity ok what s more important to gay christians sex or christianity christianity i would hope would they be willing to forgo sex completely in order to avoid being a stumbling block to others to avoid the chance that their interpretation might be wrong etc if not why not heterosexuals abstain all the time it would be nice if protestant churches had celibate orders to show the world that sex is not the important thing in life to tell the truth gay churches remind me a lot of henry the viii starting the church of england in order to get a divorce or is this a myth note that i am not denying that gay christians are christian darin johnson djohnson ucsd edu toy cows in africa
soc.religion.christian	re question about virgin mary in article may geneva rutgers edu marka hcx ssd csd harris com mark ashley wrote countries that event is approved by the pope currently images of mary in japan korea yugoslavia philippines africa are showing tears natural or blood if you have the resources go to one of the countries i mentioned in article may athos rutgers edu mdw uxa cso uiuc edu michael d walker wrote as far as current investigations the church recently declared the crying statue and corresponding messages from mary at akita japan as approved i found this out about a month ago i m in japan michael could you give me more info about where akita is nearest city would be good if i find it i ll get pictures and post a digitised version if enough people are interested marty lost in space or is it japan pauley tai jkj sii co jp
soc.religion.christian	re homosexual issues in christianity in article may athos rutgers edu mserv mozart cc iup edu someone named mark writes mls panix com michael siemon writes homosexual christians have indeed checked out these verses some of them are used against us only through incredibly perverse interpretations others simply do not address the issues i can see that some of the above verses do not clearly address the issues there are exactly zero verses that clearly address the issues however a couple of them seem as though they do not require incredibly perverse interpretations in order to be seen as condemning homosexuality the kind of interpretation i see as incredibly perverse is that applied to the story of sodom as if it were a blanket equation of homosexual behavior and rape since christians citing the bible in such a context should be presumed to have at least read the story it amounts to slander a charge that homosexuality rape to use that against us do not be deceived neither fornicators nor idolators nor adulterers nor effeminate nor homosexuals nor thieves nor the covetous nor drunkards nor revilers nor swindlers shall inherit the kingdom of god and such were some of you i cor the moderator adequately discusses the circularity of your use of porneia in this i think we can all agree with paul that there are some kinds of activity that could be named by fornication or theft or coveting or reviling or drunkenness which would well deserve condemnation we may or may not agree to the bounds of those categories however and the very fact that they are argued over suggests that not only is the matter not at all clear but that paul an excellent rhetorician had no interest in making them clear leaving matters rather to our spirit led decisions with all the uncomfortable living with other readings that has dominated christian discussion of all these areas homosexual behavior is no different i and the other gay christians i know are adamant in condemning rape heterosexual or homosexual and child molestation heterosexual or homosexual and even the possibly harmless but obsessive kinds of sex heterosexual or homosexual that would stand condemned by paul in the very continuation of the chapter you cite may i mildly suggest that what paul does in his letter that you want to use is perhaps a good guide to his meaning i am free to do anything you say yes but not everything is for my good no doubt i am free to do anything but i for one will not let anything make free with me cor which is a restatement that we must have no other god before god a commandment neither i nor any other gay christian wishes to break some people are indeed involved in obsessively driven modes of sexual behavior it is just as wrong though slightly less incendiary so it s a secondary argument from the phobic contingent to equate homosexuality with such behavior as to equate it with the rape of god s messengers i won t deal with the exegesis of leviticus except very tangentially fundamentally you are exhibiting the same circularity here as in your assumption that you know what porneia means there are plenty of laws prohibiting sexual behavior to be found in leviticus most of which christians ignore completely they never even bother to examine them they just assume that they know which ones are moral and which ones are ritual well i have news for you any anthropology course should sensitize you to ritual and clean vs unlcean as categories in an awful lot of societies we have them too but buried pretty deep and i cannot see any ground for distinguishing these bits of leviticus from the ritual law which no christian i know feels applies to us i m dead serious here when people start going on as they do in this matter about how repulsive and unnatural our acts are and what do they know about it huh it is a solid clue to the same sort of arbitrary cultural inculcations as the american prejudice against eating insects on what basis other than assuming your conclusion can you say that the law against male male intercourse in leviticus is not a part of the ritual law for those christians who do think that some parts of leviticus can be law for christians while others are not even to be thought about it is incumbent on you in every case handled on its own merits to determine why you pick one and ignore another i frankly think the whole effort misguided reread paul no doubt i am free to do anything but christians have a criterion to use for making our judgments on this the great commandment of love for god and neighbor if you cannot go through leviticus and decide each command there on that basis then your own arbitrary selection from it is simply idiosyncracy in this context it is remarkably offensive to say i notice that the verse forbidding bestiality immediately follows the verse prohibiting what appears to be homosexual intercourse well la ti da so what this is almost as slimey an argument as the one that homosexuality rape i know of no one who argues seriously though one can always find jokers in defense of bestiality it is absolutely irrelevant and incomparable to the issues gay christians do raise which concern sexual activity within committed consensual human adult realtionships so that your bringing it up is no more relevant than the laws of kashrut if you cannot address the actual issues you are being bloody dishonest in trailing this red herring in front of the world if you want to address bestiality that is your business not mine and attempting to torpedo a serious issue by using what is in our culture a ridiculous joke shows that you have no interest in hearing us as human beings you want to dismiss us and use the sleaziest means you can think of to do so jesus and paul both expound very explictly and in considerable length the central linch pin of christian moral thought we are required to love one another and all else depends on that gay and lesbian christ ians challenge you to address the issue on those terms and all we get in return are cheap debate tricks attempting to side track the issues christians no doubt very sincere ones keep showing up here and in every corner of usenet and the world and all they ever do is spout these same old verses which they obviously have never thought about maybe never even read in total ignorance of the issues raised slandering us with the vilest charges of child abuse or whatever their perfervid minds can manage to conjure up tossing out red herrings with they suppose great emotional force to cause readers to dismiss our witness without even taking the trouble to find out what it is such behavior should shame anyone who claims to have seen truth in christ why for god s precious sake do you people quote irrelevant verses to condemn people you don t know and won t even take the trouble to listen to before you start your condemnations is that loving your neighbor god forbid is that how you obey the repeated commands to not judge or condemn others christ and paul spend orders of magnitude more time in insisting on this than the half dozen obscure words in paul that you are so bloody ready to take as license to do what god tells you not to do why for god s sake for god did not send the son into the world to condemn the world but that the world might be saved through him whoever believes in him is not condemned but whoever does not believe has already been condemned for refusing to believe in the name of god s only son now the judgment is this the light has come into the world but men have preferred darkness to light because their deeds were evil for everyone who practices wickedness hates the light and does not come near the light for fear his deeds will be exposed but he who acts in truth comes into the light so that it may be sh own that his deeds are done in god john for long ages we many of us have been confused by evil counsel from evil men and told that if we came to the light we would be shamed and rejected some of us despaired and took to courses that probably do show a sinful shunning of god s light blessed are those whose spirits have been crushed by the self righteous they shall be justified however we have seen the truth and the truth is the light of humanity and we now know that it is not we who fear the light but our enemies who fear the light of our witness and will do everything they can to shadow it with the darkness of false witness against us michael l siemon i say you are gods sons of the mls panix com most high all of you nevertheless or you shall die like men and fall mls ulysses att com like any prince psalm
soc.religion.christian	does anyone remember some years ago possibly as many as five there was a discussion on numerology that s where you assign numeric values to letters and then add up the letters in words in an effort to prove something or another i can never make any sense of how it s supposed to work or what it s supposed to prove somebody posted a long article about numerology in the bible saying things like this proves the intricate planning of the scriptures else these patterns would not appear then there was a brilliant followup which was about numerology in all the other numerology posts stuff like the word numerology adds up to and the word appears times in the posting such elegant planning further the word truth also adds up to the writer is using these numerological clues to show us that we reach truth via numerology these examples are made up by me just as examples i really liked that reply because it did such an excellent job of showing that these patterns can be found in just about anything however i did not save a copy of it i do not remember the author i m only sure that it was posted to this newsgroup but on the off chance that somebody remembers it and saved it or that the author is reading here i wanted to know if anyone could send me a copy i think it should be made into an faq if we can find it darren f provine kilroy gboro rowan edu i use not only all the brains i have but all those i can borrow as well woodrow wilson
soc.religion.christian	re why do people become atheists on may gmt fil sapienza med umich edu fil sapienza said in article may athos rutgers edu maxwell c muir muirm argon gas organpipe uug arizona edu writes the ambiguity of religious beliefs an unwillingness to take pascal s wager i ve heard this frequently what exactly is pascal s wager either a god exists or b he doesn t we have two choices either believe in god or don t believe in god if a is true then brings eternal damnation whereas brings eternal life if b is true then has minor inconvenience compared with thus it is rational to believe in god this has numerous flaws covered in the faq for alt atheism amongst other places do i sound broken to you i don t know you point out that your mother s treatment upset you and see inconsistencies in various religions i m not sure if that constitutes broken ness or not it certainly consititutes disillusionment disillusionment strikes me as an excellent reason for stopping believing in something bruce cmsr university of liverpool religion is myth information
soc.religion.christian	re faq essay on homosexuality i have some articles available on the church and gay people from a pro gay viewpoint which might interest some of the people participating in this thread please email me if you would like to have me send them to you warning about k worth of material make sure you have mailbox and or disk space available there are no short answers to the questions we ve been seeing here how do you explain these verses how do you justify your actions if you ve been asking and you really want an idea of the other people s thinking i encourage you to do some serious reading dr ann b carlson a b carlson larc nasa gov o ms o nasa langley research center hampton va
soc.religion.christian	re translations in article may athos rutgers edu mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes i have a strong preference for editions that do not indent the beginning of each verse as if verses were paragraphs the verse numbering is a relatively modern addition and should not be given undue prominence does anyone know of an english language edition that does not show the verse or even chapter numbers i have always thought that such an edition would be very useful although hard to navigate around i have a scots nt that doesn t show verse numbers and it is great to read particularly longer narrative passages but my scots isn t quite up to doing proper study from this edition i tend to use it to get a feel for a story particularly in the gospels and then use an english edition to look for details alison the original neb put verse numbers only in the margin the jerusalem bible does the same though they put a dot to mark the boundaries between verses clh
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity in article may athos rutgers edu dps nasa kodak com writes in article geneva rutgers edu loisc microsoft com lois christiansen writes he can especially homosexuality let s reach the homosexuals for christ let s not try to change them just need to bring them to christ if he doesn t want them to be gay he can change that don t hate the people i don t i don t hate my kids when they do wrong either but i tell them what is right and if they lie or don t admit they are wrong or just don t make an effort to improve or repent they get punished i think this is quite appropriate note the difference here one is saying if christ disagrees with a christian being gay christ can change that the other is saying if i think being gay is wrong that a christian cannot be gay i need to tell them to change as lois said and as before her paul wrote to the believers in rome who are you to judge another s servant jen include stdisclaimer jenk microsoft com msdos testing
soc.religion.christian	re dreams and out of body incidents in article may athos rutgers edu dt cs hub ucsb edu david e goggin writes i d like to get your comments on a question that has been on my mind a lot what morals ethics apply to dreams and out of body incidents in normal dreams you can t control anything so obviously you aren t morally responsible for your actions but if you can contrive to control the action in dreams or do an oobe it seems like a morality applies well i am one of those apparently odd people who can sometimes control their dreams for example i might decide before going to sleep that i want to repeat a favourite dream or dream about a specific place or if i am having an unpleasant dream i can often not always redirect events to something more pleasant i guess i think that the same standards apply in these directed dreams as apply in waking fantasies or real life ref jesus teaching about looking at a woman lustfully being the same a committing adultary when my normal dreams display themes that i would not conciously chose to dream about i take that as a sign that all is not well with my inner life maybe i have underlying tenstions fears that need to be resolved or maybe its straightforward sin in either case the cause needs to be resolved in fact either case is pretty rare i don t often remember dreams that i don t chose to have when i do they almost always tell me something important i also almost never dream in pictures and especially not in colour in fact i ve had precisely one full colour picture dream that i can remember and it was definately spiritually important i tend to dream in sound with the odd blurred image in black and white interesting topic i ll be fascinated to read other responses alison ps just to make it clear i don t do and have never tried oobes i tend to think they are off limits for christians
soc.religion.christian	arsenokoitai nt meaning of this week many of you have asked about my earlier postings on ot nt and intertestiment exegesis on the homosexual issue i have refered you to the faq files which i find out no longer contains them they are too long for me to mail to each of you each article but will try to get them back on the faq file because of the renewed interest on this subject i will type with permission an article by james deyoung i think it is one of the best articles that i ve read todate from the conservative position i can t post it all at once so it will come piece meal and not daily after i m done retyping the entire article i will make it available for the faq file talk to clh also for those who can t get through to me you may try one of these rexlex fnal fnal gov lexrex almond fnal gov loren senders admail fnal gov the source and nt meaning of arsenokoitai with implications for christian ethics and ministry james b deyoung professor of new testament western conservative baptist seminary portland oregon traditional interpretation of arsenokoitai homosexuals in cor and tim refers to sexual vice between people of the same sex specifically homosexualitiy some restrict the term s meaning to active male prostititute but stronger evidence supports a more general translation namely homosexuals more recently the definition homosexual has been opposed on clutural and linguistic grounds the claim being that the term homosexuals is anachronistic in addition criticism of the traditional rendering says the term today includes celibate homophiles excludes heterosexuals who engage in homosexual acts and includes female homosexuals a concern for acts instead of the modern attention to desires was the only factor in the ancient world the foregoing oppositition to the translation of arsenokoitai by homosexuals has a number of debilitating weaknesses finally this study argues that paul coined the term arsenokoitai deriving it from the lxx of lev cf and using it for homosexual orientation and behavior the latter of which should be an occasion for church discipline i cor and legislation in society tim introduction coincident with the rise of the gay rights movement in recent years has been an increasing focus on the biblical statements regarding homosexuality or sodomy as part of this focus the meaning of the term arsenokoitai used twice by the apostle paul cor i tim has received vigorous scrutiny this issue is particularly crucial to contemporary society since so much of modern ethics is shaped by biblical statements more particularly the concern over gay rights and the place of gays or homosexuals in the church and in society require the resolution of biblical interpretation this study of historical linguistic and literary matters will survey and evalutate recent proposals for the meaning of arsenokoitai and present evidence to point to a resolution several writers and their positions represent the modern debate on this word three authors bailey boswell and scroggs have provoked considerable discussion and significantly encouraged the wider acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle in society in the church and in the ministry footnotes for convenience sake the term homosexual is used to encompass both same sex orientation and same sex behavior the meaning of this term is one of the main considerations of this study these times are differnt from just over a century ago then p fairbairn pastoral epistles edinburg could write of arsenokoitai thit it is a term for which fortunately our language has no proper equivalent unknowingly he thereby touched upon the basis for the contemporary debate and study the present writer endorses the pauline authorship of the pastoral epistles on the basis of internal and external evidence see donald guthrie new testament introduction th ed for an extensive discussion and citation of supporters of the pauline authorship for example see scroggs influence on m olson untangling the web the other side april for a study suggesting a further prohibition of homosexuality in the ot see a phillips unconvering the father s skirt vt jan for a bibliography of other sources dealing with arsenokoitai see the wisondisc religion indexes ny h wison co
soc.religion.christian	re sj mercury s reference to fundamentalist christian parents in article athos rutgers edu dan ingres com a rose arose writes raised in oakland and san lorenzo by strict fundamentalist christian parents mason was beaten as a child he once was were the san jose mercury news to come out with an article starting with raised in oakland by mexican parents mason was beaten my face would be red with anger over the injustice done to my mexican family members and although i m neither fundamentalist nor evangelical i have often noticed this trend in the media in short it is permissable to bash fundamentalists no need to substitue a nationality such as mexican try simply to substitute a different religion raised by muslim parents or raised by jewish parents the paper simply would not do this
soc.religion.christian	re mormon temples in article may athos rutgers edu mserv mozart cc iup edu mail server writes i don t necessarily object to the secrecy but i do question it since i see no biblical reason why any aspect of christian worship should involve secrecy but i am interested in your claim that early christian practices parallel mormon temple ceremonies could you give an example also why do they only parallel mormon ceremonies why don t mormon ceremonies restore the original christian practices wasn t that the whole point of joseph smith s stated mission i d recommend reading mormonism and early christianity by hugh nibley particularly the articles on christ s forty day post resurrection mission baptism for the dead early christian prayer circles and temples articles bruce bruce f webster a religion that does not require the sacrifice cto pages software inc of all things never has power sufficient to bwebster pages com produce the faith necessary unto life and import pages disclaimer h salvation joseph smith
soc.religion.christian	re mormon temples in article may athos rutgers edu mserv mozart cc iup edu mail server writes but i am interested in your claim that early christian practices parallel mormon temple ceremonies could you give an example also why do they only parallel mormon ceremonies why don t mormon ceremonies restore the original christian practices wasn t that the whole point of joseph smith s stated mission if you want parallels the best source is probably the book temple and cosmos by hugh nibley it is not light reading however as to why these early practices only parallel and do not exactly duplicate the modern lds ceremony there are a couple of reasons quite likely we do not have the exact original from ancient times this stuff was not commonly known but bits and pieces undoubtedly spread much as bits and pieces of the modern ceremony get known what we have in the day literature the egyptian ceremonies and certain native american ceremonies is almost certainly not exactly what jesus taught certain aspects of the ceremony are normally modified to fit the situation much as the modern ceremony has been modified to fit the audio visual tools now available
soc.religion.christian	re portland earthquake paul hudson jr hudson athena cs uga edu wrote in article may athos rutgers edu cctr cantua canterbury ac nz bill rea writes in history seems to imply some pretty serious sin the one of the pastors in the church i attend christchurch city elim considers that a prophesy of a natural disaster as a judgement from the lord is a clear sign that the prophesy is not from the lord i would like to see his reasoning behind this you may have gotten if i get a chance i will ask them this weekend burned by natural disaster prophecies down there but that does not mean that every natural disaster judgement prophecy is false take a quick look at the book of jeremiah and it is obvious that judgement prophecies can be valid here in the us it seems like we might have more of a problem with positive prophecies though i am sure there may be a few people who are too into judgement the words i have underlined are at the heart of the problem a quick look doesn t do justice to the depth of the book of jeremiah having studied the jeremiah ezekial period solidly for over a year at one stage of my life i have to say that there is a great deal of underlying theological meaning in the judgement prophesies let me make one point the clash between jeremiah and the false prophets was primarily in the theological realm the false prophets understood their relatioship to god to be based on the covenant that the lord made with david it is possible to trace within the pages of the old testament who this covenant which was initially conditional on the continued obedience of david s descendants came to be viewed as an unconditional promise on the part of the lord to keep a descendant of david s upon the throne and to never allow jerusalem to subjegated by any foreign power jeremiah was not a judahite prophet he was from anathoth across the border in what had formerly been israelite territory when he came to prophesy he came from the theological background of the covenant the lord had made with israel through moses the northern kingdom had rejected the davidic covenant after the death of solomon his theology clashed with the theology of the local prophets it was out of a very deep understanding of the mosaic covenant and an actute awareness of international events that jeremiah spoke his prophesies the judgement prophesies were deeply loaded with theological meaning in my opinion both the portland earthquake prophesy and the david wilkerson new york will burn prophesy are froth and bubble compared to the majestic theological depths of the jeremiah prophesies bill rea o o w u w bill rea computer services centre e mail b rea csc canterbury ac nz university of canterbury or cctr csc canterbury ac nz christchurch new zealand phone fax
soc.religion.christian	re faq essay on homosexuality in article may geneva rutgers edu hedrick geneva rutgers edu writes this came from here s his response kinsey see below is the source of the figure percent there was an article in usa today a few months ago showing the results of a study that actually only about were homosexual i saw another figure that listed as the figure of course even if it were that would have little bearing on whether or not it is a sinful behavior how many people have commited other acts of fornication how many people have lied or sinned in other ways but in all fairness the shameless nature of their acts is a reflection of the general spiritual state of the people and not a specific feature of homosexuality why isn t it a specific feature of homosexuality paul describes men with men working that which is unseemly to describe the acts sure there spirtual nature was depraved also and like the other sins the idolatry the other sexual immoraity and the other sins sprang from their depraved spiritual state which was a result of man s not glorifying god as god and being thankful still their acts were shameless homosexuality or even considered it acceptable in some cases on the other hand none of these passages contains explicit teachings on the subject rom is really about idolatry it refers to homosexuality in passing is everything sinful specifically elaborated on in the new testament scripture does not condemn being a drug dealer being ruled by the spirit rather than the letter not only frees from legalism it also protects us from sins that are against the spirit the word is a two edged sword that cuts both ways i think we must be careful before we totally throw out leviticus if the law is reflection of god s character and true holy nature then those who say that god endorses homosexuality run into a problem if homosexuality were natural whatever that means wholesome endorsed by god and those who oppose sexual behavior are narrow minded biggots as some would have us believe why is there a condemnation of it in leviticus this condemnation is in the midst of all the other sex sin condemnations and there is nothing in the text to say that this law was limited to temple prostitution and no good reason to believe that this was the case furthermore male homosexual sex was a death penalty crime is every sin elaborated on in the new testament take a look at i corinthians paul said that one of the corinthians had broken a law not even heard of among the gentiles that one should have his father s wife there is a prohibition against having your father s wife in leviticus no other new testament verse clearly condemns it besides this one notice that paul did not say that the sin was in commiting adultery etc he spoke against having one s father s wife notice also that this sexual condemnation in leviticus is not mentioned in the specific context of paganism either and there was no pagan coustom mentioned in i corinthians either as a matter of fact taking one s father s wife wasn t even done among the gentiles it was just a plain blantant sin whether worshipping idols was involved or not one commonly made claim is that paul had simply never faced the kinds of questions we are trying to deal with he encountered homosexuality only in contexts where most people would probably agree that it was wrong he had never faced the experience of christians who try to act straight and fail and he had never faced christians who are trying to define a christian homosexuality which fits with general christian ideals of fidelity and of seeing sexuality as a mirror of the relationship between god and man it is unfair to take paul s judgement on homosexuality among idolaters and use it to make judgements on these questions one of the reasons that some of us do not accept that common argument is because paul probably did face this and other problems sin can be tough to over come especially without supernatural power is homosexual sin any more difficult to overcome that heterosexual sin like lusting after a married woman or sleeping around with people of the opposite sex i doubt it and even if it is that is no excuse god is greater than all of it another reason we reject it is because it ignores the supernatural power of god to intervene in this kind of situation how many people have been set free from sin by the power of god sure there may be any groups that have tried to change homosexuals and failed that is a reflection on the people involved in the program and not god s willingness and ability to change a sinner any program that uses formulas may fail what people need is the power of god to change them whether they are involved in homosexual sin or any other sin i claim that the question of how to counsel homosexual christians is not entirely a theological issue but also a pastoral one paul s tendency as we can see in issues such as eating meat and celebrating holidays is to be uncompromising on principle but in pastoral issues to look very carefully at the good of the people involved and to avoid insisting on perfection when it would be personally damaging for example while paul clearly believed that it was acceptable to eat meat he wanted us to avoid pushing people into doing an action about which they had personal qualms i don t see how you come to that conclusion paul s dealings with pastorial issues encouraged people to give up their liberties in order to spare others not to allow people to continue in sin because it was just too difficult take the example of eating meat offered to idols paul felt that there was nothing wrong in an abstract sense with eating the meat yet he advised believers to sacrifice their liberty to eat meat in order to spare others but paul never allowed people to sin because living holy was just to tough paul wrote to make no provision for the flesh to fulfill the lusts thereof romans then he goes in to a discourse on how we should sacrifice our own liberty in order to spare the consciences of others suppose it were not a sin for people to practice homosexual acts since others consider it to be a sin then using paul s approach on pastorial issues those who would otherwise be homosexuals should sacrifice their liberty and be celbate or monogamously married to a member of the opposite sex paul never offers a lesser sin homosexual marriage to prevent people from engaging in what may be considered a more damaging sin for another example paul obviously would have preferred to see people at least in some circumstances remain unmarried yet if they were unable to do so he certainly would rather see them married than in a state where they might be tempted to fornication yet marriage itself is not a sin marriage is holy in all and something that god ordains and paul recognizes this note that in the creation story work enters human life as a result of sin this doesn t mean that christians can stop working when we are saved actually adam was put in the garden to tend to it before he fell after he fell he would have to toil over the ground the dangers of trying to cure it are that the attempt most often fails and when it does you end up with damage ranging from psychological damage to suicide as well as broken marriages when attempts at living as a heterosexual fail that is why we are dependent totally on god what a vunerable and glorious position to be it we all must be transformed by the renewing of our minds and that is the only way homosexuals can walk in freedom just like anyone else but i can well imagine paul preferring to see people in long term committed christian relationships than promiscuity as with work which genesis suggests wasn t part of god s original ideal either i think such relationships can still be a vehicle for people sharing god s love with each other i m sure you can see how people with the opposing view see this conclusion it s like saying how should i kill myself with gun or aresenic what about the person who just is overcome with a desire to sleep with goats would it be better for him to sleep with one goat or all of them what about the person who wants to sleep with his aunts would it be better for him to sleep with one aunt or all of them in all these cases the more people or animals one sleeps with the higher the chance that they will get a disease but this only deals with physical aspects of the question whichever sin is commited it all leads to spiritual death cent actions are the same when christian homosexuals say that their relationships are different than the greek homosexuality that paul would have been familiar with this is exactly the same kind of argument that is being made about judicial oaths and tax collectors the issue that is most often addressed in scripture seems to be the actual act second isn t it historical snobbery to say that only homosexuals of this century are capable of having loving relationships there are ancient writings glorifying homosexual love btw i am one who believes in refraining from making oathes also where do you get that tax collectors are sinners that s certainly not explicit jesus didn t tell zachias to quit his job link hudson i m reluctant to comment in this in detail our basic concepts of the intention of jesus and paul are greatly different as i indicated in the article whatever the ambiguities of various words and i still think they are significant it does seem clear that paul considered the homosexuality he saw around him wrong what you do with this fact depends upon your basic approach to the bible i m afraid that communication between legalist and anti legalist christians is even harder than between protestants and catholics in the th cent since you disagree with my starting point obviously you re going to disagree with all of the intermediate discussion and conclusions sometimes discussion is still useful i ve seen some very interesting work on paul done by jews obviously they don t agree with him but they sometimes have helpful insight into what he meant but i don t see much sign for hope here in talk religion misc there s an axiom that by the time hitler s name is invoked all hope for sensible discussion is gone on this subject when sleeping with goats is invoked i don t think there s enough basis for understanding to be worth pursuing clh
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity in article may athos rutgers edu dps nasa kodak com wrote in article geneva rutgers edu loisc microsoft com lois christiansen writes you might visit some congregations of christians who happen to be homosexuals that are spirit filled believers not mcc rs before you go lumping us all together with troy perry gee i think there are some real criminals robbers muderers drug addicts who appear to be fun loving caring people too so what s your point is it ok just because the people are nice i didn t say to visit some nice homosexuals i said visit some congregations of christians spirit filled believers praise the lord that we are all members of the same body let us agree to disagree god bless you and see you in heaven loisc
soc.religion.christian	re serbian genocide work of god vera shanti noyes writes really you may be right but i d like proof as far as i know and we however shall be innocent of this sin and will pray with earnest entreaty and supplication that the creator of all may keep unharmed the numbers of his elect st clement bishop of rome letter to the corinthians c ad ignatius also called theophorus to the church at ephesus in asia which is worthy of all felicitation blessed as it is with greatness by the fullness of god the father predestined from all eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging united and chosen in true suffering by the will of the father in jesus christ our god st ignatius bishop of antioch letter to the ephesians address c ad we say therefore that in substance in concept in orgin and in eminece the ancient and catholic church is alone gathering as it does into the unity of the one faith which results from the familiar covenants those already chosen those predestined by god who knew before the foundation of the world that they would be just st clement patriarch and archbishop of alexandria miscellanies c ad of course the doctrine was explained more fully later on by sts augustine aquinas etc but the seeds were ther from the beginning this is really confusing to me especially since i still believe that christ jesus died for all of us preknowledge of obstinacy seems like an awfully convoluted way to account for a couple of verses but i think you are reading it wrong i say those who are not saved are not saved on account of their own sins it is not because god did not give them sufficient grace for he does do so in his desire that all men might be saved however as only some are saved and those who are saved are saved by the grace of god not by works lest any man should boast the others are damned because of their obstinacy in refusing to heed the call of god they are damned by their own free will and chosing a choice forseen by god in his causing them to be not predestined but reprobated instead so god uses grace like margarine he only spreads it where it s needed and not where it isn t and so there are the saved and the not saved and nothing in between hmmmm certainly god does not distribute grace evenly if he did no one could have their heart hardened or rather harden their heart thus causing god to withdraw his grace but you are correct the world is divided into those who god knows to be saved and those god knows to be on the road to perdition the key is that god knows it and we do not thus no one can boast in complete assurance that they are one of the elect and predestined but no one who is a christian in good standin should doubt their salvation either that shows a lack of trust in god be punished after we die you re saying what we get after we die has a direct bearing on how we live now strange you must admit it is possible anyway why would you want something in the hear and know when you can recieve fold in heaven better to lay up your treasure in heaven is what jesus said this is not to condemn the rich but simply to point out that those who are rich are frequently very evil or immoral so god must give them their blessing know as they have chosen remeber jesus promised tribulation in this world and hatred of others because we are christians he did not promise heaven on earth he promised heaven so sin is either punished now or later and not both what if it s sort of half punished are there any grey areas in this doctrine not really unless you do penance here on earth you will have to do it in purgatory as paul pointed out corinthians those with poorer works though still done with good intentions will only be saved through fire the damned will of course go into fire immeadiately for whatever good they did was not for god but for self dead works of course the church gives indulgences has confession and annointing of the sick to remove sin and the the vestiges of sin so there is really little excuse for ending up in purgatory it is a last hope for the somewhat lazy and careless as i said above in referring to paul and no comments were taken as flames you are one of the more polite people i have talked to over the net andy byler ps as for balkan military adventures the old saw about that area is that it produces more history then can be consumed locally alexander the great wwi the ottoman empire the byzantine empire by which i refer to stirfe and foreign adventures of them in general the balkans wars of the latin greek wars of the s etc not a good place to hop into
soc.religion.christian	re portland earthquake austin c archer archau saturn wwc edu wrote i am interested in views about the non event of may seriously how can a christian discriminate between messages from god which are to be taken seriously and those which are spurious is there a useful heuristic which would help us avoid embracing messages which by their non fulfillment are proven to be false thus causing the name of christ to be placed in disrepute is this a problem at all it is possible that the individual saw a true prophetic vision but that he interpreted the scale of time and space according to his material con sciousness translating the supersensible perceptions of a plane above that of time and space into an immediate worldly context and getting it wrong not that he did it rationally but rather that unconsciously the perceptions became clothed in material images instead of remaining in the realm of the potential and not yet time space bound this difficulty of translating prophetic vision into a concrete when and where has always been difficult even for the prophets of old that is why their prophecies are so often subject to multiple interpretations likewise the apostles seemed to feel that the return of the lord was to be very soon in the sense of perhaps the same generation yet the meaning of very soon has proven to be different than they could grasp prophetic vision tends to telescope time so that things that are far off appear to be very close another possibility is that the vision was one of a real event preparing to happen again in the realm of the potential but not yet manifest and which was thwarted by other forces including possibly an act of divine mercy there are many concrete prophecies being made these days by devout and sincere and sober christians and others too it seems that great coming events are really casting their shadow before their arrival in these apocalyptic times the various predictions i m talking about those that appear to be sincere and sober are hard to accept yet hard to ignore com pletely one has the feeling something is about to start to get ready to begin to commence to happen we are living as the chinese saying goes in interesting times as for how to discriminate the bible doesn t help much there is an old testament passage i forget where it is that says you will know whether a prophet is true by whether or not his prophecy comes to pass that helps eliminate the failures after the fact but in the case of an earth quake it is small comfort it seems to me that all prophecies that give specific times and places and events should be suspect not in that they are necessarily false but in the sense stated above that all such visions are subject to mistranslation from the plane of prophetic vision to the plane of earthly time and space for what it is worth rudolf steiner once was asked whether a modern initiate could see into the future and predict coming events his answer was that it would be possible but then he would have to withdraw from active parti cipation in them including proclaiming what he saw if this is in fact a spiritual law then the answer to your question about how to discriminate is that the one who makes such prophecies is probably violating that law knowingly or unknowingly and as such his message should be considered a priori to be dubious i e i would expect that those capable of making true predictions and giving accurate expression to them would not do so in the way that the prophet of the oregon earthquake did however i can sympathize with the person who published the prophecy given the same overwhelming experience that he apparently had i too might feel impelled and even commissioned by god to tell my fellow human beings about what i had seen gerry palo compuserve com do any of our church historian readers know whether there s any more prophecy now than there has been in the past i don t get that impression clh
soc.religion.christian	re what was the immaculate conception in article may athos rutgers edu jhpb sarto budd lake nj us joseph h buehler writes referring to mary she was immaculately conceived and so never subject to original sin but also never committed a personal sin in her whole life this was possible because of the special degree of grace granted to her by god i have quite a problem with the idea that mary never committed a sin was mary fully human if it is possible for god to miraculously make a person free of original sin and free of committing sin their whole life then what is the purpose of the incarnation of jesus why can t god just repeat the miracle done for mary to make all the rest of us sinless without the need for repentance and salvation and all that i don t particularly object to the idea of the assumption or the perpetual virginity both of which i regard as catholic dogma about which i will agree to disagree with my catholic brothers and sisters in christ and i even believe in the virgin birth of jesus but this concept of mary s sinlessness seems to me to be at odds with the rest of christian doctrine as i understand it seanna watson bell northern research pray that at the end of living seanna bnr ca ottawa ontario canada of philosophies and creeds god will find his people busy opinion what opinions oh these opinions planting trees and sowing seeds no they re not bnr s they re mine i knew i d left them somewhere fred kaan
soc.religion.christian	re mary s assumption i also don t see the necessity of saying the holy parents were some how sanctified beyond normal humanity it sounds like our own inability to grasp the immensity of god s grace in being incarnated through an or dinary human being when elizabeth greeted mary elizabeth said something to the effect that mary out of all women was blessed if so it appears that this exactly places mary beyond the sanctification of normal humanity
soc.religion.christian	re deuterocanonicals esp sirach michael siemon writes furthermore it is inaccurate to say that the reformers threw out these books basically they just placed them in a secondary status as jerome had already done but with the additional warning that doctrine should not be based on citations from these alone protestants love to play up jerome for all he is worth they should remeber that after the decree of pope st damsus i jerome did not hesitate in accpeting the deuteroncanon and quoted them as scripture in his later writings and as i have already pointed out in a previous letter on this subject the catholic church has accepted the deuterocanon from the beginning and the protestants in the s all of a sudden revived the old theory of some condemned by pope council and church that the deuterocanon were not inspired again why must the church of jesus christ adopt the canon of the unbelieving jews drawn up in jamnia in ad in countering the christian use of the septuagint andy byler
soc.religion.christian	re mormons and eternal marriage was re mormon temples david hammerslag asked how do you mormons reconcile the idea of eternal marriage with christ s statement that in the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage luke chapt several explanations for this seeming contradiction have been proposed but most lds scholars whose opinions i have studied take more or less one of the following three positions jesus was talking to a group of people sadducees who were trying to trip him up with what they felt was a silly hypothetical situa tion that ridiculed the concept of a resurrection something they didn t believe in these people and those associated with them now there were with us seven brethren matt would not be receptive to such higher blessings as eternal marriage hence the people in the story would likely not be married in the eterni ties but that doesn t mean other more faithful people could not have this blessing jesus was making a distinction between the state or condition of being married and the process of becoming married the latter activity marrying and giving in marriage will not take place in the eternities because all eternal marriages will be taken care of before then the account as we have it in all three of the synoptic gospels is missing something that would make its real meaning clearer note that we lds do not believe in biblical inerrancy so we do not in general feel obliged to reconcile each and every bible text with modern revelation through joseph smith and other latter day proph ets nor are we particularly upset that the account in question was not significantly revised in the joseph smith translation or inspired version of the bible since we do not believe this work was completed or that failure to revise a passage in the jst con stitutes divine approval of that passage as it stands in the kjv rich wales richw mks com mortice kern systems inc mks king st n waterloo ontario canada n j w
soc.religion.christian	re deuterocanonicals esp sirach barney resson writes on these counts the apocrapha falls short of the glory of god to quote unger s bible dictionary on the apocrapha they abound in historical and geographical inaccuracies and anachronisms so do other parts of the bible when taken literally i e the psalms saying the earth does not move or the implication the earth is flat with four corners etc the bible was written to teach salvation not history or science they teach doctrines which are false and foster practices which are at variance with sacred scripture what ones paryers for the dead or the intercession of saints which are taught in maccabees sirach and tobit they resort to literary types and display an artificiality of subject matter and styling out of keeping with sacred scripture by your own subjective judgement this falling short is your judgement and you are not infallible rather the church of jesus christ is see timothy they lack the distinctive elements which give genuine scripture their divine character such as prophetic power and poetic and religious feeling more subjective feelings this is not a proof of anything more than one persons feelings but the problem with this argument lies in the assumption that the hebrew canon included the apocrapha in the first place and it wasn t until the sixteenth century that luther and co threw them out the jewish council you mentioned previously didn t accept them so the reformation protestants had good historical precedence for their actions jerome only translated the apocrapha under protest and it was literally over his dead body that it was included in the catholic canon as i have written time and again the hebrew canon was fixed in jamnia palestine in ad years after the foundation of the one holy catholic and apostolic church furthermore the opinons of jerome do not count he was neither the church or the pope or an ecumenical council or a council in general or an insturment of the magisterium of the church he was a private individual learned admittedly but subject to erro of opinion and in exlcuding the deuterocanon he erred as pope damsus and the council of carthage and the tradition of the fathers clearly shows as i pointed out in my previous post how do you then view the words i warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book if anyone adds anything to them god will add to him the plagues described in this book and if anyone takes away from this book the prophecy god will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city rev i suggest you take heed of the last part of the statement if you want to take it in the sense you are taking it that taking away from the book will cause you to lose heaven it is also noteworthy to consider jesus attitude he had no argument with the pharisees over any of the ot canon john and explained to his followers on the road to emmaus that in the law prophets and psalms which referred to him the ot division of scripture luke as well as in luke taking genesis to chronicles the jewish order we would say genesis to malachi as scripture the order of the canon is unimportant it is the content that matters none of jesus statments exlcude the deuterocanon which were interspersed throughout the canon and remeber there are some completely undisputed books ezra nehemiah esther ecclesiatses song of songs job etc that are not quoted in the new testament which is not taken as prejudicial to their being inspired andy byler
soc.religion.christian	re the doctrine of original sin eugen bigelow writes it is also noteworthy to consider jesus attitude he had no argument with the pharisees over any of the ot canon john and explained to his followers on the road to emmaus that in the law prophets and psalms which referred to him the ot division of scripture luke as well as in luke taking genesis to chronicles the jewish order we would say genesis to malachi as scripture you should remember that in adam s transgression all men and women sinned as paul wrote all of humanity cooperativley reblled against god in adma s sin thus all are subject to it and the sin is transmitted from generation to generation andy byler
soc.religion.christian	re satan kicked out of heaven biblical in article may athos rutgers edu easteee wkuvx bitnet writes hello all i have a question about satan i was taught a long time ago that satan was really an angel of god and was kicked out of heaven because he challenged god s authority the problem is i cannot find this in the bible is it in the bible if not where did it originate wondering eddie hi eddie many people believe the battle described in rev describes the casting out of satan from heaven and his fall to the earth shalom len howard
soc.religion.christian	re mormon temples in article may athos rutgers edu mserv mozart cc iup edu mail server writes i don t necessarily object to the secrecy but i do question it since i see no biblical reason why any aspect of christian worship should involve secrecy early in church history the catechumens were dismissed prior to the celebration of the eucharist it was secret giving rise to the rumors that christians were cannibals and all sorts of perverse claims the actions were considered too holy to be observed by non christians as well as potentially dangerous for the individual christian who might be identified larry overacker llo shell com lawrence overacker shell oil company information center houston tx llo shell com
soc.religion.christian	re christianity and repeated lives in article may athos rutgers edu kevxu cunyvm bitnet writes isn t origen usually cited as the most prestigious proponent of reincarnation among christian thinkers what were his views and how did he relate them to the christian scriptures he appears to have believed that he had a view which was condemned by conciliar action which is often taken to be condemnation of the idea of reincarnation what was actually condemned was the doctrine of the pre existence of the soul before birth similar but not exactly the same thing larry overacker ll shell com lawrence overacker shell oil company information center houston tx llo shell com
soc.religion.christian	re question about hell in article may athos rutgers edu wytten umn cs cs umn edu dale wyttenbach writes what is the basis of the idea of hell being a place of eternal suffering if it is biblical please reference here s my train of thought if god is using the earth to manufacture heavenly beings then it is logical that there would be a certain yield and a certain amount of waste the yield goes to heaven and the waste is burned destroyed in hell why is it necessary to punish the waste rather than just destroy it luke talks about the rich man and lazarus matthew talks about the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels revelations and reference this fire as the place where unbelievers are thrown matthew talks about being thrown into the eternal fire and the fire of hell it seems quite clear that there is this place where a fire burns forever from the revelations passages it is clear that the devil and his angels will be tormented there forever from the matthew passage it doesn t seem abundantly clear whether the punishment of unbelievers is everlasting in the sense of final or in the sense of continual from dale s question i come away with the suggestion that hell if it were short might be an acceptable alternative to living forever with the source of life peace and joy i e the unbeliever ceases to exist whereas if punishment goes on continually then one should have a greater motivation to avoid it it definately seems to me that hell is something we want to avoid regardless of its exact nature there seem to be two main questions in dale s thought what is god s main plan on earth why is continual punishment a necessary part of hell as opposed to simply destroying completely those who refuse god i believe that god s main plan is to have a genuine relationship with people the nature of hell and the reasons for its nature seem a lot more difficult to ascertain it does seem clear that hell is something to avoid at a minimum hell is the state one is in when one has nothing to do with god in the bible i am not aware of any discussion about the specifics of hell beyond the general of hot unpleasant and torment for instance it is not discussed how if at all the rich man can continually stay in the fire and still feel discomfort or pain or whether there is some point at which the pain sensing ability is burned up if you can forgive the graphicalness if you throw a physical body into a fire assuming the person starts out alive at some fairly quick point the nerves are destroyed and pain is no longer sensed it is not stated what occurs when at the judgement the unbelievers who are already physically dead are cast into hell i e they no longer have a physical body so they can t feel physical pain what could be sensed continually is that those in hell are to be forever without god the lazarus rich man parable is told with the idea of having the listener think in physical terms in order to get the point that some people won t listen to god even after he rises from the dead the point of the parable is to reach the hard hearted here who are not listening to the fact of the resurrection nor the gospel about jesus christ it seems reasonable to also draw from the parable that hell is not even remotely pleasant peter white disclaimer none of what is written necessarily reflects a view of my company phil i want to know christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in niv his sufferings becoming like him in his death
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity in article athos rutgers edu carlson ab larc nasa gov ann carlson writes anyone who thinks being gay and christianity are not compatible should check out dignity integrity more light presbyterian churches affirmation mcc churches etc meet some gay christians find out who they are pray with them discuss scripture with them and only then form your opinion if you were to start your own religion this would be fine but there is no scriptural basis for your statement in fact it really gets to the heart of the problem you think you know more than scripture your faith is driven by feel goodism and not by the word of god just because they are nice people doesn t make it right you can start all the churches you want and it won t change the fact that it is wrong that is not to imply that gays don t deserve the same love and forgiveness that anyone else does but to call their behavior right just because they are nice people is baseless and it offers satan a perfect place to work because there is no check on what he is doing i suspect ann was suggesting that you look to see whether the spirit is alive among them not whether they are nice people though there s something to be said for being nice too clh
soc.religion.christian	defending the faith iv conference enclosed is an advertisement for the defending the faith iv conference to be held at franciscan university of steubenville ohio june i attended dtf iii last year and plan to go again this year i would recommend it highly to catholic interested in apologetics there will be lots of music well known catholic speakers fellowship as well as eucharistic liturgies friday and sunday registration is per person but i believe financial aid is available if you need it housing in residence halls each of which has its own blessed sacrament chapel if desired is person for double occupancy for two nights total reservations can also be made for you at the very nearby holiday inn i think it was a night there for my single room meals are available at the cafeteria friday dinner through sunday lunch for or with or without breakfast respectively franciscan university of steubenville is located in eastern ohio on us route mile west of the ohio river and ohio route greater pittsburgh international airport is less than one hour miles from campus feel free to e mail me if you have any question i can answer here is the agenda as typed in by a friend of mine friday afternoon special reflections on c s lewis a preliminary session with walter hooper walter hooper is one of the foremost international experts on the writings of c s lewis in he served as secretary to c s lewis and he has since edited of lewis literary works for publication walter was ordained a priest in the church of england in serving in oxford england until he entered the catholic church in friday evening opening session in search of the truth finding the fullness of faith bishop fabian bruskewitz know your rites kimberly hahn saturday morning apologetics means never having to say you re sorry karl keating c s lewis my signpost to the catholic church walter hooper mass bishop bruskewitz celebrant fr ray ryland homilist saturday afternoon the mystery of femininity why it excludes the priesthood dr alice von hildebrand men make better fathers masculinity and the male priesthood dr peter kreeft saturday evening when do catholics hear the gospel dr thomas howard the catholic gospel not just saving sinners scott hahn sunday morning there s no place like rome the pilgrimage of two protestant pastors panel mass fr ray ryland celebrant fr michael scanlan tor homilist here is the ad that appeared in the catholic answer defending the faith iv conference catholic church teaching know why you believe june times have changed major catholic doctrines are misunderstood and attacked like never before believers need to know the reasons behind the catholic church s teaching as our first pope urged always be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within you i peter grab your notebooks and get ready for an unforgettable spiritual and intellectual weekend this year s conference will candidly confront the hardest questions and objections about the catholic faith deepen your understanding of church teaching with scott and kimberly hahn dr thomas howard karl keating dr alice von hildebrand dr peter kreeft and fr ray ryland cut throught the confusion and doubt and be better equipped to give a defense for the hope that is within you join us at defending the faith iv the fourth in a series of annual conferences designed to strengthen the life of catholics and others interested in the catholic faith it can help you know why you believe call toll free today franciscan university tent of steubenville or steubenville ohio steve creps indiana university creps lateran ucs indiana edu
soc.religion.christian	daily verse i have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy nothing will harm you luke
soc.religion.christian	love in the morning by malcolm smith ministries begin included message the following teaching is brought to you on behalf of malcolm smith ministries a ministry dedicated to leading believers everywhere into a knowledge of the love of god if you would like more info on the ministry and or would like to comment on whether you found this teaching beneficial e mail to randy hunt at rlhunt hou amoco com love in the morning psalm by malcolm smith moses wrote this prayer at a weary time in the history of israel a generation before the time of its writing the people of israel had stood at kadesh gateway to canaan and made the fateful choice to go their own way rather than god s way they refused an adventure of faith in god which would have given them canaan the homeland of promise god honored their decision and said they would wander in the desert only a few miles from the land of promise until they were all buried in the sand the young decision makers of that fateful day were between twenty and thirty years old and destined to be dead within forty years bleached bones in the desert by the time they were seventy eighty at the most the lives of these wanderers had been unending sadness moses described it as ending each year with a sigh v the fact that they knew give or take a few months when they were going to die underscored the meaninglessness of their existence whatever heights of success they reached they would be a heap of bleached bones within forty years the only ones to live outside of that depression of hopeless disbelief were joshua and caleb who had stood against the nation at kadesh and had god s promise of one day entering the land the forty year period was finally drawing to an end the new generation those who were children at kadesh were now grown and eager to take the inheritance their parents had refused to enjoy in the light of this moses prays it is time for a new day to begin and the days of misery to be over all these years as moses had walked with these moaning and complaining people through the wilderness of their exile he had carried a double burden his was not only the sadness of living in less than what could have been but he also knew why they had chosen as they had at kadesh the problem was that they were ignorant of the character of their god if asked who is your god they would have described him as the god who is power when aaron had created their concept of god in an idol he chose a calf or young bull a symbol of power of virility in their minds god was the young bull who had impaled pharaoh on his horns and gored egypt s gods as he led israel to sinai but when man worships a god of power his miracles grow thin and even boring after miracle food on the desert floor and water gushing miraculously from the solid rock through the desert wasteland the god of almightiness becomes ho hum what s next on the miracle menu and a god of power can be as unpredictable as a young bull calf he might be all they need but then who knows if he has all power he has a right to do whatever he wants whenever he wants the only person these people had known who had absolute power was pharaoh and men s lives had hung on the whim of his moods which could change with the wind they believed god could work his wonders on their behalf but they did not know him and so could not trust him israel had a god based on what he did his acts moses knew the heart of god the motivation behind the acts from the day of his encounter at the burning bush moses had been fascinated by god at sinai he asked to be shown his glory to know who he really was he had seen what god had done he wanted to know who god was this request was granted and moses was given a glimpse of god s glorious person he had come to know the heart of god as compassion and lovingkindness exodus the word lovingkindness is not to be understood as a human kind of love it speaks of the kind of relationship arising out of the making of a covenant it can only be understood as the love that says i will never leave you nor forsake you lovingkindness is as tenacious as a british bulldog when the world walks out this love digs in its heels and refuses to leave and it is not human romantic love based on feelings and rooted in emotions it is a love of covenant commitment and therefore operates quite apart from feelings god s love is not an emotion that wavers day by day it is the total commitment of his being to seek our highest and best and to bring us to our fullest potential as humans god does not see something good and beautiful in us which arouses his feelings of love toward us we do not woo him and cause him to fall in love with us if that were the case the first ugly sinful thing we did would cause him to reject us he is love and he loves us because of who he is not because of who we are he does not love what we do but he is committed to us pursuing us down every blind alley and bypath of foolishness he will not let us go his is a love that is not looking for what it can get out of us but a committed love that searches for opportunities to give to us it is saying to the recipient for as long as we shall live i am for you the god who has revealed himself to man through scripture and finally in jesus in his coming and in his death and resurrection is the god who is lovingkindness thus he loves us and gives himself to us he will never leave us nor forsake us tragically many believers have never seen him as love they see him as power no one will come to faith by just seeing miracles miracles point to who he is and that is when faith springs in the heart israel did not see god as lovingkindness they saw his acts of power moses knew his ways the kind of god he was and the love that he had for these people because of their total lack of understanding of his love they could not trust him to be their strength in taking the land faith is born out of knowing the love he has for us it is the resting response to the one who gives himself to us he is not the force and to call him the almighty is to miss his heart he is love who is the almighty and the infinite force if man is to make force or raw power work for him he must depend on knowing the forrnula and have faith in it but the power that issues from love demands faith in the person of love himself the forty years of meaningless wandering was a monument to a people who had never come to know the god of love at this point with the new generation and the possibility of enjoying all that god promised moses prays verse the language moses uses is reminiscent of a baby having slept secure in its mother s love now waking to look up into the delight of her eyes it is waking to the consciousness of being loved watched over cared for protected fed and cleaned day and night by the mother suppose we were to ask what has the baby done to deserve this or have arrangements been made for the child to repay the parents for this inconvenience our questions would be considered unnatural even immoral the child was conceived in love anticipated and prepared for with love s excitement a love that has been to the gates of death to bring it into being the parents love is unconditional spontaneous it has nothing to do with the looks of the child or its performance so god is love he loves us unconditionally spontaneously we were conceived in his imagination and fashioned after his image to be brought to where we are at this moment by the blood of the lord jesus it is slanderous and immoral to even ask what we must do to earn and deserve that love the child discovers its personhood and identity through the eyes and touch through the cuddles of its parents love it is a scientific fact that a baby who is not touched and held will probably die or if it survives will have severe emotional problems and a person who has been held and loved will still never know the true meaning of life without the embrace and knowledge of love from god moses prays that the new generation will learn to wake every morning resting with total confidence in the love of god and will receive all his promises and blessings with joy and gladness significantly moses prays that they will be satisfied with his love satisfied in the hebrew language is a rich picture word describing being filled with an abundance of gourmet food it is also used to describe the earth after the rain has soaked it and all the vegetation has received enough water moses prays that they will awaken every morning to be drenched in the life giving love of god that sense of satisfaction is the lifelong quest of every man and woman when we are satisfied in our deepest selves many of our emotional and even our physical problems disappear man seeks that sense of satisfaction which comes from feeling that he is fulfilled as a human being his hours have meaning which make sense out of the ordinary and mundane apart from god man seeks this satisfaction through intellectual pursuit through the exciting of the emotions and through the feeding of his body he will even seek it in religious exercise but man will always be dissatisfied until he is responding to the love of the living god only in knowing god s love will the rest of life make sense as the forty years drew to a close and the land of promise again became the inheritance to be taken moses prayed this psalm i find it fascinating that he should pray and ask god for a daily revelation of his love considering the awe with which the people held moses one would think he could have lectured them on the subject of lovingkindness and by the knowledge they gained they would live in it but moses knew better god is the only one who can make known to us his love we won t find it in a religious lecture or a formula which we can learn and use to manipulate him nor is it in a beautiful poem to titillate our emotions and give us god feelings it is god himself the lover who must open our eyes and satisfy us with his love this prayer is man in helplessness asking god to make the love he is real in our hearts moses prayer was partially answered in the next generation and seen in the exploits of faith which worked by love in the book of judges but it would not be answered in its fullest dimensions until the coming of the holy spirit who pours out the love of god in our hearts romans in the history of the early church we read of the holy spirit falling upon the believers this is an ancient expression that in modern english means to give a bear hug it is used in luke to describe the father running to the prodigal and falling on his neck and kissing him the holy spirit is god hugging you in your deepest self and smothering you with divine kisses at the deepest level of your being this is not a one time experience to be filed in our spiritual resumes moses prayed that morning by morning we would awaken to the realization that we are loved the world and much of our religious training has taught us to perform in order to be accepted we have spent far too long living in a state of doing in order to find satisfaction for ourselves to find acceptance and love from others and from god we now come humbled to receive love we cannot earn to be still and let him tell us we are loved to let the holy spirit descend into us pouring out the love of god we come in stillness to think on and repeat his words of love to our minds which have been jaded with the doctrine of perform to be accepted we begin to realize that he loves us as we are and gives meaning and purpose to all of life i challenge everyone reading this to begin each day from the moment you open your eyes by celebrating the god of love and praying this prayer you may not feel anything but something always happens i was x rayed the other day i did not see or feel anything but i noted that the technicians kept behind protective walls they know you cannot be exposed to those rays without being affected so it is as we consciously begin our day knowing that we are loved such experiential knowledge will produce according to moses joy and gladness all our days joy is the result of a life that is functioning as god intended us to function when he made us you might say that joy is the hum of an engine that is at peak performance man s highest performance is to rest in the love god has for him the hum will be joy and the result will be endless creativity arising from the sense of meaning he now has in life stop wandering in the wilderness be satisfied with his love and in joy day by day receive all his promised blessings end included message
soc.religion.christian	re sj mercury s reference to fundamentalist christian parents in article may athos rutgers edu dan ingres com a rose arose writes in the monday may morning edition of the san jose mercury news an article by sandra gonzales at the top of page a explained convicted killer david edwin mason s troubled childhood saying raised in oakland and san lorenzo by strict fundamentalist christian parents mason was beaten as a child other instances of child abuse deleted were the san jose mercury news to come out with an article starting with raised in oakland by mexican parents mason was beaten my face would be red with anger over the injustice done to my mexican family members and the mexican community as a whole why is it that open biggotry like this is practiced and encouraged by the san jose mercury news when it is pointed at the christian community perhaps because there is a connection here that is not there in the mexican variant you bring up that is many not all extreme fundamentalist christians use the excuse of teaching their children biblical morality to justify this sort of mistreatment i do not see many mexicans using their mexican heritage as an excuse for abuse it is indeed this judgemental controlling legalism of many fundamentalist christians that has led me to reject that branch of our faith as not true to the gospel of christ the gospel of love i have seen this sort of thing too often even amoung my own relatives to believe there is no relationship judgementalism often leads to overly strict and thus abusive discipline of children this is not restricted to just christian fundamentalism it is found in many extreme sects of other legalistic religions can a good christian continue to purchase newspapers and buy advertising in this kind of a newspaper this is really bad journalism i too am a christian but i do not condone the use of the bible to justify this sort of abuse i believe that it is only by exposing the horrors of the misapplication of the biblical concept of discipline that such abuses can be stopped just because someone is also a christian does not mean we must identify eith them this sort of sin needs to be made public sarima teradata com formerly tdatirv sarima or stanley friesen elsegundoca ncr com
soc.religion.christian	re major views of the trinity in article may athos rutgers edu you write i fear orthodox theologians have been overly in love with paradox to the extent that well meaning people think they ve just flat out confused there s no problem with things being both and e g if the are different parts of the but they re in some way different aspects modes or whatever of one god if you accept economic trinitarianism it s possible that you don t have any substantive difference with the standard view is it possible that you just don t find the neo platonic explanation illuminating clh i would put it stronger than that i consider it nonsense simply put i do not see any way that a platonic essence could have any real existance essence in the platonic sense does not have any referent as far as i can tell it is just an imaginary concept invented to provide an explanation for things better explained in other ways so to attribute an essence to god is to attribute to him something that does not exist thus the orthodox platonic formulation seems to leave the unity of god in limbo since it is based on a non existant essence thus failing to avoid the very problem it was supposed to address thus to me the unity of god must be primary and the triality must be secondary must be modal or aspectual relating to roles or to modes of interaction since otherwise there is no meaning to saying god is one sarima teradata com formerly tdatirv sarima or stanley friesen elsegundoca ncr com i think one can read augustine as saying something consistent with your comments his de trinitate which has been very influential in the west defines the distinction among the persons relationally you re probably at one extreme of orthodox views but i m not sure your views are necessary incompatible with the trinity clh
soc.religion.christian	re dreams and out of body incidents in article may athos rutgers edu dt cs hub ucsb edu david e goggin writes i d like to get your comments on a question that has been on my mind a lot what morals ethics apply to dreams and out of body incidents dave you might like to read a book by florence bulle god wants you rich other enticing doctrines which discusses oobes in one of her chapters in the bible we have examples of men caught up in the spirit eg ezekiel paul i believe that also this experience is counterfeited by satan so that for example yoga and other eastern medatitive techniques can be used to induce the soul to leave the body and float off someone tried to sell me a book in los angeles airport entitled easy journeys to other planets which uses such techniques the occultic trance of a medium sometimes involves such body departure the book the challanging counterfeit about a former medium who gets saved tells how the author on his last trance was attacked by evil spirits who tried to kill him while returning to his body at the end of the seance because of his interest in christianity and how he was supernaturally protected by the lord there may be some similarities in mind altering drugs and the phenomena of tripping as regards the connection between body and soul there is an interesting verse in ecclesiastes in a passage talking about old age the preacher writes then man goes to his eternal home and mourners go about the streets remember him before the silver cord is severed my understanding of this silver cord is that it is something that attaches body and soul in a manner somewhat similar to an umbilical cord or an astronaut s air line to his spaceship when a person goes out of body this silver cord still attaches the soul whereever it goes and is vulnerable to being broken astral projection can be dangerous bulle i think reports a case of a yogi off on an oobe who was found dead in his apartment with no apparent external cause barney resson many shall run to and fro knowledge shall increase daniel
soc.religion.christian	re christian reformed does anyone belong to or know any facts about the christian reformed church it s one of two major heirs to the dutch reformed tradition in the u s the other is the reformed church in america the crc is more or less a spinoff from the rca it was unclear to me from my reference exactly the differences between them are clh
soc.religion.christian	re baptism requires faith aaron aaron bryce cardenas aaronc athena mit edu writes aaron colossians in him you were also circumcised in the aaron putting off of the sinful nature not with a circumcision done aaron by christ having been buried with him in baptism and raised aaron with him through your faith in the power of god who raised him aaron from the dead aaron in baptism we are raised to a new life in christ romans aaron through a personal faith in the power of god our parent s aaron faith cannot do this do infants have faith let s look at aaron what the bible has to say about it yes let do try and if anyone causes one of these little ones who believes in me to sin it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck mark let the little children come to me and do not hinder them for the kingdom of god belongs to such as these i tell you the truth anyone who will not receive the kingdom of god like a little child will never enter it the colossians passage does not make faith a requirement for baptism it merely says that in baptism we are born again regenerated and resurrected through faith in the case of an infant i would say that baptism works faith in the heart of the infant through the power of the word the colossians passage does make baptism a spiritual circumcision circumcision was the means by which a male infant was made a part of god s covenant with israel it was commanded to be performed on the eighth day the early church understood this and even debated whether baptism had to be performed on the eighth day or if it could in fact be done earlier aaron romans but not all the israelites accepted the good aaron news for isaiah says lord who has believed our message aaron consequently faith comes from hearing the message and the aaron message is heard through the word of christ aaron so then we receive god s gift of faith to us as we hear the aaron message of the gospel and the gospel is surely preached at any infant s or adult s baptism indeed in a very real sense the sacraments are the gospel made tangible aaron faith is a possible response to hearing aaron god s word preached kids are not yet spiritually aaron intellectually or emotionally mature enough to respond to aaron god s word how do you know they are not yet mature enough to have faith do you know this on the basis of god s word or from your own reason faith is also described as a gift from god ephesians he gives faith to infants just as he gives it to adults through the power of the gospel romans aaron if you read all of ezekiel you will see that god doesn t aaron hold us guilty for anyone else s sins so we can have no aaron original guilt from adam here you show that you just don t understand original sin you are arguing against a straw man maybe you ve been talking to catholics too much i don t know but original sin does not consist of god s imputation of adam s guilt to us it consists of our inheritance of adam s sinful nature it is actual sin see for example the augsburg confession article ii and the apology of the augsburg confession article ii and for extra credit john knox s the scots confession article iii aaron now then that we have a little more background as to why aaron original sin is not biblical let s look at some of the aaron scriptures used to support it aaron romans therefore just as sin entered the world through aaron one man and death through sin and in this way death came to aaron all men because all sinned ask yourself this question do infants ever die then ask yourself if infant baptism is not valid then where was the christian church during all the centuries when almost all of the baptisms were performed on infants were luther melancthon calvin zwingli hus knox andrae and chemnitz christians aaron psalm surely i was sinful at birth sinful from the time aaron my mother conceived me aaron this whole psalm is a wonderful example of how we should humble aaron ourselves before god in repentance for sinning david himself aaron was a man after god s own heart and wrote the psalm after aaron committing adultry with bathsheba and murdering her husband aaron all that david is saying here is that he can t remember a time aaron when he wasn t sinful he is humbling himself before god by aaron confessing his sinfulness his saying that he was sinful at aaron birth is a hyperbole the bible being inspired by god isn t aaron limited to a literal interpetation but also uses figures of aaron speech as did jesus john for another example of aaron hyperbole see luke who are you to say what is literal and what is not is a literal interpretation manifestly absurd in psalm by reason of direct contradiction with a clear passage from the word of god you might also compare genesis the lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart never again will i curse the ground because of man even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood aaron we see aaron that he did grow and become wiser in luke and the aaron implication is that jesus did wrong things as a child before he aaron knew to choose right over wrong you are a long way from proving this rather monstrous assertion all you can say is that jesus grew in wisdom and in stature a conclusion that he did wrong as a child is based on an extrapolation of reason not on a direct revelation in scripture david h wagner but mad reason rushes forth and a confessional lutheran because baptism is not dazzling like the works which we do regards it as worthless martin luther large catechism fourth part baptism
soc.religion.christian	re soc religion christian anni dozier dozier utkux utk edu wrote after reading the posts on this newsgroup for the pasts months it has become apparent to me that this group is primarily active with liberals catholics new agers and athiests someone might think to change the name to soc religion any or perhaps even soc religion new it might seem to be more appropriate heck don t flame me i m catholic gay and i voted for bill clinton i m on your side since when did conservative protestant old time religion believers get an exclusive francise to christianity christianity is and always has been a diverse and contentious tradition and this group reflects that diversity i fo one am not ready to concede to any group be they liberal or conservative catholic protestant or orthodox charismatic or not the right to claim that they have the truth and everyone else is not christian revdak netcom com
soc.religion.christian	re a few questions arthur clarke may have quoted the comment about knowing you re to be hanged in the morning concentrating a man s mind wonderfully but the source of the comment is samuel johnson pardon me if you already knew that je
soc.religion.christian	re soc religion christian in article may athos rutgers edu dozier utkux utk edu anni dozier writes after reading the posts on this newsgroup for the pasts months it has become apparent to me that this group is primarily active with liberals catholics new agers and athiests someone might think to change the name to soc religion any or perhaps even soc religion new it might seem to be more appropriate heck don t flame me i m catholic gay and i voted for bill clinton i m on your side my sentiments exactly which is why i m unsubbing from this group this is the rd christian discussion list i have ever belonged to and once again i m being chased away by the strife anger discontent lies et al as paul saul said i come to preach christ and him crucified don t let the simple beauty of faith in god get overshadowed by heady theological discussions or thousands of lines of post incarnation trappings of some church as for the atheists agnostics who read this list if you aren t christian and if you have no intention of ever becoming one why on earth do you waste your time and mine by participating on a christian discussion list i will continue to search for christian discussion prayerful spirit filled kind humble patient etc in other circles sheila patterson cit cr technical support group ccc cornell university ithaca ny i m afraid that any discussion group containing people with different views tends to turn into arguments about the largest differences present so talk religion misc spends a lot of time on christian atheist arguments soc religion christian spends a lot of time on arguments among different christian groups and the bitnet catholic group spends a lot of time on arguments between conservative and liberal catholics personally i would prefer to have a set of somewhat more specialized groups at least as an alternative liberal and conservative protestant and catholic would handle most of the traffic though there are certainly significant groups e g orthodox of course it may be that most of our readers like the arguments i certainly find it painful moderating them clh
soc.religion.christian	re the doctrine of original sin muddmj wkuvx bitnet writes but haven t all sinned and come short of the glory of god romans those that cite this scripture to claim that even babes require baptism neglect that sin is not imputed when there is no law romans therefore until someone is capable of comprehending god s laws they are not accountable for living them they are in the book of life and are not removed until they can make a conscious decision to disobey god a idler if babies are not supposed to be baptised then why doesn t the bible ever say so it never comes right and says only people that know right from wrong or who are taught can be baptised what christ did say was i solemly assure you no one can enter god s kingdom without being born of water and spirit do not be surprised that i tell you you must all be begotten from above could this be because everyone is born with original sin i presume you are quoting john my king james bible says except a man be born of water and of the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of god john here man adult however this could be a quibble between translations we can also analyze to whom the lord is addressing marvel not that i said unto thee ye must be born again john here jesus is clearly directing his remarks to nicodemus a ruler of the jews not a child we can ask ourselves why the lord would even introduce the concept of spiritual re birth through baptism if newborn babies weren t free from sin a idler yup in john man is not in the original a better translation is no one can enter as in nrsv of course in jesus is addressing the person who came to him there are other places in the nt where he deals with children they ve been mentioned in other postings clh
soc.religion.christian	re christianity and repeated lives in article may athos rutgers edu kevxu cunyvm bitnet wr ites while this is essentially a discussion of reincarnation in the context of christianity gerry palo has made some comparisons to asian religious beliefs on this topic which have simplified the asian idea of karma to the point of misrepresentation i realized that my generalizations would probably have problems under scrutiny from various asian points of view they need to be discussed in detail indeed but for the purposes of this newsgroup and thread thus far and in this newsgroup i risked oversimpli fication my main purpose was to emphasize that i was not coming from a buddhist or hindu point of view as you observed the main context is that of christianity but by all means add comments and corrections as you find them i wrote a longer reply addressing some of your points but decided to not post it perhaps it would be more appropriate for soc religion eastern instead i just add the following couple of items about karma and reincarnation as i see the matter from an anthroposophical and a christian point of view karma is not simple reward and punishment dealt out by a judging deity reincarnation is not the same as being born again reincarnation is not the same as the resurrection of the body reincarnation and karma do not contradict the fundamental teachings of christianity about god the fall the being incarnation death and resurrection of christ his coming again sin grace forgiveness salvation and the last judgement isn t origen usually cited as the most prestigious proponent of reincarnation among christian thinkers what were his views and how did he relate them to the christian scriptures jack carroll origen s work was mostly lost he was not anathematized to my knowledge but his writing comes down largely in fragments and quotations from enemies perhaps someone else can comment on origen i don t know if there is a specific statement about reincarnation from him but from what i do know about him he probably did hold to the teaching in one form or another i don t know too much about the history of the idea of reincarnation in the church however i heard an interesting story about pope john paul ii from an astronomer who teaches at the university of cracow the pope likes to go to poland for a scientific conference every couple of years so he can relax and talk polish to friends and fellow countrymen my acquaintance an anthroposophist related the fact that woitila knew about steiner and anthroposophy from his early days before he became a priest he was an actor in a dramatic company in cracow whose leader was a pupil of steiner and based his acting and directing methods on steiner s indications part of the work was the study of the basic works of anthroposophy well going to this conference with him a few years ago the astronomer and another polish anthroposophist thought they would ask the pope what he thought about anthroposophy they chickened out at the last minute but one of them did ask him what he thought about reincarnation the pope smiled and said actually there have been quite a few good catholics who believed in reincarnation and he proceeded to name several from the earliest times to modern times then he changed the subject my polish friend did not say whether origen was among those he mentioned gerry palo compuserve com as far as i know origen himself was not anathematized he was controversial but avoided outright condemnation during his lifetime however some of his views were condemned at a council in alexandria in and two councils in constantinople in and i am fairly sure the preexistence of souls is one of the doctrines condemned clh
soc.religion.christian	re mormon temples from dhammers pacific david hammerslag how do you mormons reconcile the idea of eternal marriage with christ s statement that in the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage luke chapt footnotes in some bibles reference this verse to the book of tobit tobit is in the septuagint goodspeed published it in a book called the apocrypha most any bookstore will have this at any rate the jews of christ s day had this book it is a story mostly centered around the son of tobit who was named tobias there was a young lady sarah who had entered the bridal chamber with seven brothers in succession the brothers all died in the chamber before consumating the marriage tobias was entitled to have sarah for his wife because tobias was her only relative and she was destined for tobias from the beginning tobias took her to wife and was able to consumate the marriage the seven husbands would not have her as a partner in heaven that does not eliminate tobias her eighth husband tobit is a fun and interesting story to read it s kind of a mythical romance it s a little shorter than esther the lds also have scriptures that parallel and amplify luke most notably doctrines and covenants therefore if a man marry him a wife in the world and he marry her not by me nor by my word and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead and when they are out of the world therefore they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world therefore when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are appointed angels in heaven which angels are ministering servants to minister for those who are worthy of a far more and an exceeding and an eternal weight of glory cordially charles dike
soc.religion.christian	kingdom theology until recently i always understood the term kingdom theology to mean the theology of the kingdom of god but now i have discovered that there is a new and more specialized meaning i gather that it is also called dominion theology and that it has to do with a belief that christians must create a theocratic form of government on earth before christ will come again i have not come across anyone who believes or advocates this but i am told that it is a very widespread belief in the usa can anyone give me any more information about it here are some of my questions is it the teaching of any particular denomination if so which where and when does it start are there any particular publications that propagate it are there any organizations that propagate it steve hayes department of missiology editorial department univ of south africa p o box pretoria south africa internet hayesstw risc unisa ac za fidonet steve hayes p f n z fidonet org faq missiology is the study of christian mission and is part of the faculty of theology at unisa
soc.religion.christian	re the doctrine of original sin in article may athos rutgers edu muddmj wkuvx bitnet writes therefore until someone is capable of comprehending god s laws they are not accountable for living them they are in the book of life and are not removed until they can make a conscious decision to disobey god a idler if babies are not supposed to be baptised then why doesn t the bible ever say so it never comes right and says only people that know right from wrong or who are taught can be baptised what christ did say was i solemly assure you no one can enter god s kingdom without being born of water and spirit do not be surprised that i tell you you must all be begotten from above could this be because everyone is born with original sin in some earlier discussions on this thread i may have given the impression that even though children didn t require baptism it wouldn t hurt if they were to the contrary when you baptize children before they are capable of comprehending it you deny them their opportunity to demonstrate their desire to serve god have any of you considered that children are not accountable for sin because they are not capable of repentance peter said to a group of men and brethren repent and be baptized every one of you acts notice that he specified that if they repent then they may be baptized in following peter s instructions people must first demonstrate repentance a forsaking of their sins and a desire to obey god s commands before they are eligible to be baptized since young children are not capable of repenting they are not eligible for baptism and since god is both just and merciful sin is not imputed when there is no law romans young children are not accountable for what they can t comprehend a idler
soc.religion.christian	re the doctrine of original sin in article may athos rutgers edu mdw uxa cso uiuc edu michael d walker writes my feeling on baptism is this parents baptize their baby so that the baby has the sanctifying grace of baptism and thus removal of original sin on its soul in the event of an unexpected death you are right michael in john jesus says amen amen i say to you no one can enter the kingdom of god without being born of water and spirit that s really what he said and he meant it that verse is the definition of baptism i don t have the law book in front of me but there is a canon law that urges parents to baptize their children within one week of birth for the very reason that you state randal lee nicholas mandock catechist gt b prism gatech edu
soc.religion.christian	re hate the sin scott prism gatech edu scott holt writes hate the sin but love the sinner i ve heard that quite a bit recently often in the context of discussions about christianity and homosexuality but the context really isn t that important my question is whether that statement is consistent with christianity i would think not i m very grateful for scott s reflections on this oft quoted phrase could someone please remind me of the scriptural source for it rom doesn t count kids the manner in which this little piece of conventional wisdom is applied has in my experience been uniformly hateful and destructive billh
soc.religion.christian	re public private revelation formerly re question about virgin mary marty helgesen writes when an alleged private revelation attracts sufficient attention the church may investigate it if the investigation indicates a likelihood that the alleged private revelation is in fact from god it will be approved that means that it can be preached in the church however it is still true that no one is required to believe that it came from god a catholic is free to deny the authenticity of even the most well attested and strongly approved private revelations such as those at fatima and lourdes i suspect that few if any catholics do reject fatima and lourdes but if any do their rejection of them does not mean they are not orthodox catholics in good standing it may be a bit much to say that a catholic is free to deny what happened at fatima that s a bit strong it is sort of like saying that a catholic is free to deny that hong kong exists what a catholic is free to do is to deny the truth of fatima without being called a heretic you can be labeled other things for such an offense but not a heretic theologians make a basic distinction as far as the degree of assent one must give to events like fatima and lourdes things revealed by god through jesus christ or his apostles must be given the assent due to a revelation of god total and unswerving fatima and lourdes demand our assent as much as any other well attested event in human history perhaps a bit more given the approval of the church approval of an apparition by the church principally means that whatever happened was in harmony with the catholic faith i personally think of private revelations as our lord s way of telling us what to do at particular periods in history he gave us all the doctrines etc years ago but we can always use some help in knowing how exactly to apply what he gave us catholic devotion to the sacred heart was a result of a series of apparitions to st margaret mary alacoque for example the problem at the time was extreme moral rigorism that was turning our lord into someone without a heart the fatima apparitions were a warning of an impending crisis in the church we are living it and what to do to save the most souls possible in such a situation
soc.religion.christian	re the bible on the immaculate conception in article may athos rutgers edu jek cu nih gov writes i will put enmity between you the serpent and the woman and between your seed and her seed she can also be read he shall crush your head and you shall bruise her or his heel genesis in the hebrew of genesis the gender is clearly masculine he shall crush your head and you shall bruise his heel the latin has feminine forms only by an accident of grammar i have yet to see an adequate explanation of st jerome s translation of genesis his latin clearly uses the feminine but i don t know why since the hebrew is clearly masculine if anyone knows of a scholarly treatment of this puzzle i would appreciate hearing from you
soc.religion.christian	re baptism requires faith aaron bryce cardenas writes romans but not all the israelites accepted the good news for isaiah says lord who has believed our message consequently faith comes from hearing the message and the message is heard through the word of christ so then we receive god s gift of faith to us as we hear the message of the gospel faith is a possible response to hearing god s word preached kids are not yet spiritually intellectually or emotionally mature enough to respond to god s word hence they cannot have faith and therefore cannot be raised in baptism to a new life catholics view the effects of baptism slightly differently and that s one primary reason why they baptize babies they believe that baptism produces a change in the soul of the baby quite independently of any volitional act on the part of the baby this change in the baby s soul gives the infant certain capabilities that he would not have without baptism since the infant does not have the use of his intellect and will yet these new faculties are dormant but as the child gets older the gifts of baptism come more and more into play ezekiel the soul who sins will die the son will not share the guilt of the father nor will the father share the guilt of the son the righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him if you read all of ezekiel you will see that god doesn t hold us guilty for anyone else s sins so we can have no original guilt from adam adam was given a number of gifts by god the chief among them was what catholics call sanctifying grace in the new testament the word used for this is charity by his sin adam lost this grace he didn t lose it just for himself however he lost it for the whole human race because once he lost it he couldn t pass it on to his descendents that s why catholics baptize babies through his original sin adam lost sanctifying grace for all his descendents christ instituted baptism to give it back to everyone babies are not being punished for anything they personally did they are simply lacking in something they need in order to enter heaven
soc.religion.christian	definition of christianity although simplistic i have always liked the fact that a christian is one who not only believes in god but believes god after all the name was first given externally to identify those who preached christ and him crucified to pay the price of their rebeliion and shortcomings before god god said this was his son i belive him scott dittman email sdittman wlu edu university registrar talk fax washington and lee university snail mail lexington virginia it s certainly a good things for christians to follow but as a definition it may be a bit hard to apply clh
soc.religion.christian	re definition of christianity in article may athos rutgers edu clh writes often we get into discussions about who is christian unfortunately there are a number of possible definitions starting from the broadest commonly used definitions are the next level is an attempt to give a broad doctrinal definition which includes all of the major strands of christianity but excludes groups that are felt to be outside historic christianity this is of course a slippery enterprise since catholics could argue that protestants are outside historic christianity etc but i think the most commonly accepted definition would be based on something like the nicene creed and the formula of chalcedon are you sure you want to include chalcedon here i presume that you mean the description of jesus as fully human and fully devine almost everyone would consider the majority of copts and armenians and the jacobites as christians yet for centuries it has been maintained that they disagree with the formula of chalcedon those that wouldn t consider them christians are most likely to object that these communities don t require a personal commitment to jesus which is only tangentially related to the formula of chalcedon thanks john kolassa kolassa bio bst rochester edu as i understand the recent discussion here the copts for all practical purposes accept chalcedon they talk about one nature rather than two but the issue seems to be one of terminology rather than substance clh
soc.religion.christian	re accepting jeesus in your heart in article apr geneva rutgers edu johnsd rpi edu writes in article geneva rutgers edu seanna bnr ca seanna s m watson writes deletia recovery programs etc i do need you to show me that there is such a thing as a spiritual need to do that it may be necessary to show me that spirits souls whatnot exist god is not important to that as far as i can tell i get the feeling that we are debating at cross purposes that we do not see the same fundamental assumptions and this perhaps makes my answers orthogonal to your questions i will try again perhaps you believe that nothing exists aside from objectively observable and provable things in that case i cannot show you that there is such thing as a spirit or a spiritual need these things do not exist in the realm of the objective but in the realm of the subjective otoh if you wish you can simply but explicitly please assume spirits exist and then show me that they would have needs and that a a handles these needs in some way you can assume god exists too if that will help i ll play along by a a i assume you mean alcoholics anonymous and not alt atheism i would not say that aa handles spiritual needs rather i would say that aa and other step programs help people come to terms with their needs ie that aa is facilitating the recovery and that as part of the recovery they recognize their spiritual needs and begin to rely on a higher power step s term to fill them instead of whatever substance abuse they had been accustomed to sorry there is no objective proof here either no way to take identical alcoholics and try to have one recover by fulfilling spiritual needs and one without and externally compare the difference we are talking about the virtually infinite complexity of people here but i should say if god is a necessary component of your spiritual needs then i truely do not understand at all it sounds to me like spirits have needs that should be fulfilled by god but can be masked in other ways drugs etc if this is the case then you can leave out god just describe the problem not the solution spiritual needs could be defined as things that people need in addition to physical requirements like air food sleep etc these are things like the need for love and acceptance and the need for meaning in life if one denies the existence of spiritual things one would presumably call these emotional needs the reason christians call them spiritual needs is that they have aspects that are not fulfillable except by spiritual means ie a person could be loved and accepted by many people and do many meaningful things but still have a need for love which can only be satisfied by the love of god now the problem is that there are people who accept the existence of these needs and people who reject them since i believe in absolute truth some of these people are right and the others are wrong so here are the possibilities if christians are right then we all have spiritual needs ie we all need god those who do not realize that they need god are deluded they just haven t recognized it yet if christians are wrong spiritual needs are an artefact of our brain chemicals well adjusted and properly integrated personalities do not have such things christians are simply using the concept of god and spiritual needs to mask their own inadequacies i hate to belabour the point but the existence of spirits and spiritual needs cannot be objectively demonstrated or proven just like the existence of god cannot and yes this means that there is a risk that all my subjective evidence is manufactured by my brain chemicals but on the other hand i could venture into solipsism and say that there is a risk that everything that i appear to objectively know is really manufactured by my brain chemicals i suspect this is an unsatisfactory answer to a request for evidence and demonstration of the existence of spirits and spiritual needs but my assertion is that such things are not objectively demonstrable as i have said before i myself am on the christian side of agnosticism having been pushed off the fence by subjective evidence and no i was not raised a christian so it is not a case of simply accepting what i was indoctrinated with seanna watson bell northern research pray that at the end of living seanna bnr ca ottawa ontario canada of philosophies and creeds god will find his people busy opinion what opinions oh these opinions planting trees and sowing seeds no they re not bnr s they re mine i knew i d left them somewhere fred kaan
soc.religion.christian	re deuterocanonicals esp sirach poram ihlpb att com writes on these counts the apocrapha falls short of the glory of god to quote unger s bible dictionary on the apocrapha they abound in historical and geographical inaccuracies and anachronisms they teach doctrines which are false and foster practices which are at variance with sacred scripture they resort to literary types and display an artificiality of subject matter and styling out of keeping with sacred scripture they lack the distinctive elements which give genuine scripture their divine character such as prophetic power and poetic and religious feeling first to point out the obvious while would clearly be a highly subjective issue one would be hard pressed to point to another book of the ot or for that matter the nt that doesn t on some issues in some way fail one or more of the first three of these tests second one factor the deuterocanonicals share is the lateness of their composition i don t recall the exact dating of all of the books but most if not all were written after the latest of the canonical books i e daniel furthermore while the deuterocanonical may or may not have been originally written in greek they are clearly deeply hellenistic in nature both of these features probably figured heavily in the rejection of these books from the various canons these may not be strict and uniformly applicable criteria by which to judge the canonicity of these books but as these discussions have shown i think the one thing we can see is that there are no purely objective standards for determining canonicity nichael and funcall get smurfy smile icon like predicate lisp sys honk
soc.religion.christian	the long text of acts was variants in the nt text to the moderator i posted this about a week ago but it never showed up locally on the net if this has already actually been posted please fill free to flush this copy n from db n andrew cmu edu d andrew byler does anyone now where an english translation of the long recension of the acts of the apostles can be found a english translation of this can be found in the acts of the apostles translated from the codex bezae with an introduction on its lucan origin and importance j m wilson london another work that might be useful is the acts of the apostles a critical edition with introduction and notes on selected passages albert c clark oxford reprinted this is an edition of text of acts that makes the assumption that the text in codex bezae is the more authentic i don t know if it actually contains an english translation or not another useful that discusses many of the variants in detail is the theological tendency of the codex bezae cantabrigiensis in acts eldon j epp cambridge the most recent reference i found was an edition in french from the early s i can supply the reference if anyone s interested now many of the works are going to be difficult to find so if you re interested in examining the differences in the long recension an excellent and easily obtainable discussion can be found in a textual commentary on the greek nt bruce metzger united bible society metzger s book serves as a companion volume to the ubs rd edition of the greek nt it contains a discussion on the reasoning that went behind the decisions on each of the variant readings included in the ubs furthermore notes on an addition readings are included in atcotgnt the majority of these occur in acts in particular in the introduction to the section on acts metzger writes an attempt was made to set before the reader a more or less full report with an english translation of the several additions and other modifications that are attested by western witnesses since many of these have no corresponding apparatus in the text volume care was taken to supply an adequate conspectus of the evidence that supports the divergent readings p i understand that one of the early codexes vaticanus and siniaticus has this version of acts it would be interesting to know what the differences are between the long and the short forms most of the copies of the text of acts that we have including the ones in vaticanus and siniaticus adher pretty closely to the shorter or alexandrian version the longer version to which you refer is usually called the western version and its main witness is the codex bezae althought there are a few other rather fragmentary sources as far as size the difference is that in clark s edition mentioned above the book of acts contains words whereas the text edited by westcott and hort a typical alexandrian text contains words i e a difference of about to answer the obvious questions no there are no major revelations in the longer text nor major omissions in the shorter text the main difference seems to expansion of detail in the western text or if you prefer contractions in the alexandrian the western text seems to be given to more detail there are some interesting specific cases but this probably not the place to go into it in detail the discussion over the years as to which of these versions is the more authentic has been hot and heavy if there is anything approaching a modern consensus it is i that neither text represents purely the authentic version ii each variant reading has to be examined on its own merits however iii the variant in the alexandrian text is the better more often than not n
soc.religion.christian	re jacob and esau jek cu nih gov writes i wrote that the apostle paul in romans speaks of god as choosing jacob over esau and adds that this is not as a result of anything that either child had done since they had not been born yet it s my understanding that romans as it is written jacob have i loved but esau have i hated refers not to the two individuals but rather to their offspring the tribe of jacob and the tribe of esau see obadiah for example in fact if you scan through the ot you will find similar references to the two tribes aaron cardenas aaronc athena mit edu
soc.religion.christian	ten commandments or ten discourses in the course of discussing the sabbath with some folks i came across something that was completely new to me and i thought i d offer it for comment to keep this as brief as possible let me state my observation as a declarative statement and then whoever wants to can comment on it basically what i think i ve observed is that the phrase the ten commandments as used by moses is not a reference to ex but rather a reference to ten distinct discourses from ex through ex that is the phrase the ten commandments should more accurately be translated the ten discourses of which the passage we call the ten commandments is really only the first i m not completely convinced that the above is true but for purposes of discussion let me argue it as though i was sure arguments supporting the above idea there aren t really ten commandments in ex in order to get commandments you have to get two of them out of verses and the verses themselves do not support such a division because they are all about not worshipping other gods that is verse commands to have no other gods and verse commands to not worship the idols mentioned in verse you can t violate verses without violating verse indicating that the whole passage is one command and leaving us with only nine commandments i could go on at length about this but for now i ll just stop with this summary there are ten speeches between ex the beginning of the traditional ten commandments and ex where god actually gives moses the two tablets with the ten commandments discourses written on them i break these ten down as follows and in most cases each of these passages begins with some variation of the phrase and the lord spoke to moses saying the exception is ex which begins now these are the ordinances which you are to set before them the word translated commandments in the phrase the ten commandments isn t really the word for commandment its the word for a speech or an utterance it s a word often used for longer discourses rather than individual statements for instance when combined with the word yom day this word is translated chronicles in such phrases as now the rest of the acts of so and so are they not written in the chronicles of x the word for commandment is freely used throughout the books of moses and perhaps it is significant that when moses spoke of the ten x s he appears to have avoided the word for commandment and chosen instead a word associated with discourses longer than just a single command god tells moses that he is going to give him the stone tablets with the law and the commandments ex yet he does not give moses the tablets until he has finished all ten discourses on mount sinai if the ten commandments were only ex it is not immediately clear why god would wait several days and nine more discourses before giving these tablets to moses on the other hand if we have the ten discourses written on the tablets then it makes perfect sense that god would not give moses the tablets until he had finished delivering all ten discourses when moses did get the tablets he found that both tablets were written on both sides ex if these ten commandments were only the first verses of ex god would have had to have written in large letters not that he couldn t have of course but it does seem more likely to me that this is a reference to two tablets containing ten discourses written in normal sized letters in ii cor paul seems to specifically single out the commandments written on stone as being the ministry of death that which is fading away and the ministry of condemnation with the possible exception of the commandment about the sabbath it is difficult to see why paul would refer to the commands in ex as being temporary fading away type commandments this is less of a problem if the stone tablets should happen to have included all of the commandments from ex through ex arguments against this idea the main argument against this idea aside from the fact that it contradicts a long standing tradition is that in dt moses says after quoting the commands in ex these words the lord spoke and he added no more and he wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me this appears to identify the words just quoted as being the only contents of the two stone tablets that was my first impression anyway however after some thought i noted that a great deal hinges on how you understand the phrase these words if moses meant these words which i have just related to you were spoken by god etc then that would mean that only the traditional ten commandments were on the stone tablets if however moses was making a parenthetical comment these words which i am now telling you were spoken by god etc then that s quite different i did note that in the dt account moses tells of being given the stone tablets before telling of the people asking moses to represent them before god whereas in the exodus account the people asked this of moses between the first and second discourses several days before god gave moses the stone tablets this reinforces the idea that moses remarks in dt ff were intended as a parenthetical remark rather than a strictly chronological account of when god wrote what and at what point he stopped adding to what was on the tablets summary all things considered i find it somewhat more likely that the nine commands in ex are really only the first of what moses regarded as the ten discourses of god i don t know if anybody has ever espoused this idea before it s brand new to me so while i lean towards accepting it i would be very interested in hearing any comments and criticisms anyone may care to offer mark
soc.religion.christian	daily verse and do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink do not worry about it luke
soc.religion.christian	re mormon temples in article athos rutgers edu dhammers pacific david hammerslag writes this paragraph brought to mind a question how do you mormons reconcile the idea of eternal marriage with christ s statement that in the ressurection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage luke chapt that s the whole point david as spirits separated from their bodies and living in the spirit world they cannot undergo the ordinance of marriage just as they cannot be baptized since there is no physical body to be baptized we perform these ordinances as proxies for them in their behalf thanks for asking brooks brooks haderlie brh cas org o be wise what can i say more columbus oh by way of ucon id jacob these opinions do not necessarily reflect those of my employer
soc.religion.christian	homosexuals several replies to my post have said that i should get to know christian homosexuals before judging them i maintain that i was not judging them by saying that homosexuality is wrong i would like to look at the responces to my post and make a general sterotypical evaluation of the people who responded to the side of christianity and homosexuality being compatible admitedly not all are homosexuals but i know that many are from their e mail responces i don t normally make sterotypical assumptions about groups of people but since i have been asked to by many of the opposing veiw point i will so far people have made wild assumptions put me down because i don t have the resources of others and even reverted to name calling if you don t think this is an acurate representation then those of you who are homosexual christians show me the diffrence in christ s love bryan
soc.religion.christian	homosexuality recently an e mail to me mentioned technically the messengers aren t even human so it can t be a case of homosexuality even of rape the jude reference to sodom is also meaningful only in the context of the sodomites lust for the other flesh of angels again application to homosexual behavior in general or to the position of gay christians is largeely specious are angels flesh no i feel that this is saying that it was because of their lust after other men who are flesh or of this world what are other opinons on this i haven t heard much about this verse at all in christ s love bryan
soc.religion.christian	hell on april stephen mcintyre writes i would rather spend an eternity in hell than be beside god in heaven knowing that even one man would spend his eternal life being scorched for his wrongdoings stephen i suspect that when you and i use the word hell we have different concepts in mind when you encounter references to heaven in terms of crowns and harps and golden streets i trust that you do not suppose or suspect christians of supposing that the golden streets are to be taken literally still less that they are what the concept of heaven is all about why then should you suppose that about the fires of hell have you read the novel atlas shrugged do you remember the last description of james taggart sitting on the floor beside the ferris persuader this comes close to a description of what is meant by hell in my circles if the image of fire is often used in this connection there are two reasons that occur to me the first reason is that it conveys the idea of hell as something that any rational being would earnestly wish to avoid as any rational being would wish to avoid the fate of james taggart but the latter image is meaningful only to those who have read atlas shrugged a smaller audience than those who have played with matches the second reason is the history of the hebrew word gehenna one of the words translated hell in the new testament it refers to the valley of hinnon outside jerusalem in early days it was a place where the canaanites offered human sacrifices burned alive to molech later it was made a garbage or refuse dump where fires burned continually consuming the trash of the city of jerusalem to be cast into gehenna or to burn in gehenna thus became a metaphor for to be rejected or discarded as worthless lest you think that identifying hell with the fate of james taggart is my own private fancy i commend to you the book the great divorce by c s lewis it discusses heaven no harps and hell no flames it is shorter than atlas shrugged and available at most bookstores and libraries yours james kiefer
soc.religion.christian	re hate the sin interesting point the bible doesn t say hate the sin it tells to avoid sin resist sin even when necessary denounce sin but not hate michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi the following passages all talk about god or people god approves of hating sin or some other action ps also talks about hating the sinner i believe there are other passages that would talk about hating someone who is evil but i didn t turn them up in this search which was on the word hate in the kjv though i ve crosschecked each passage in the nrsv ps prov isa amos zec rev clh
soc.religion.christian	re satan kicked out of heaven biblical this is a response to a request for a biblical reference about satan being a fallen angel clh isaiah a common reading of this passage is that it s referring to the king of babylon using mythological language ironically because of his claims clh
soc.religion.christian	christianity in crisis by hank hanegraaff christianity in crisis by hank hanegraaff controversy for the sake of controversy is a sin controversy for the sake of truth is a divine command dr walter martin dr walter martin personally selected hank hanegraaff to succeed him as president of the christian research institute the largest evangelical counter cult organization in the world in this skillful careful treatment of an explosive subject hanegraaff documents and examines how the beliefs of the word of faith movement clearly compromises and confuse the essentials of the historic christian faith for the first time ever this large and influential movement is legitimately labeled as cultic in this book hanegraaff discusses such leaders of the word of faith movement as e w kenyon and the twelve apostles of another gospel gal kenneth e hagin kenneth copeland benny hinn frederick k c price john avanzini robert tilton marilyn hickey paul david yonggi cho charles capps jerry savelle morris cerullo and paul and jan crouch the book is now available through harvest house publishers and should be in most christian book stores soon you can order a hard back copy through cri for by calling and avoid retail mark ups the christian research journal which is a quarterly publication by cri has an article in it s most recent issue just released called what s wrong with the word faith movement this is a good article that will inform you of each of the teachers above and tide you over until your book arrives if you are interested in receiving the journal yourself you can order it from cri at the number above for a year it is the best source of the most accurate and well researched info in christiandom today if we re going to have a discussion of book here and this is the third posting so far i d like people to say enough about its contents for people to decide whether it s worth reading clh
soc.religion.christian	re baptism requires faith in article may athos rutgers edu aaronc athena mit edu aaron bryce cardenas writes colossians in him you were also circumcised in the putting off of the sinful nature not with a circumcision done by christ having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of god who raised him from the dead in baptism we are raised to a new life in christ romans through a personal faith in the power of god our parent s faith cannot do this do infants have faith let s look at what the bible has to say about it i don t think the issue of whether infants have faith is relevant or not certainly they can as the example of john in utero proves i find the translation of col above odd in terms of the circumcision of christ which the kjv and rsv put in terms of christ s cricumcision which we in union with him participate in putting off the body of sins of the flesh also perhaps cor is dividing the act of burial with him in baptism which can be independant of faith from the experience of rising with christ by faith who says both are by faith this interpretation has the advantage of explaining those who are faithlessly baptized for whom their baptisim is not benefit but serves to put them into the kingdom nonetheless like the israelites all of them children included who were baptized in the cloud and in the sea it was of no advantage because they did not add to their baptism faith and obedience baptism does not impart faith nor is it done strictly speaking on the basis of the faith of the parent but because of the covcenant promise of god it imparts grace the grace of the kingdom which can be a punishement in disguise if there is later apostacy romans but not all the israelites accepted the good news for isaiah says lord who has believed our message consequently faith comes from hearing the message and the message is heard through the word of christ so then we receive god s gift of faith to us as we hear the message of the gospel faith is a possible response to hearing god s word preached kids are not yet spiritually intellectually or emotionally mature enough to respond to god s word hence they cannot have faith and therefore cannot be raised in baptism to a new life do you teach a child to pray the lord s prayer do you expect them to not steal they can have faith appropriate to their condition and in the new covenant we shall no longer say know the lord for they shall all know him from the least unto the greatest heb if you read all of ezekiel you will see that god doesn t hold us guilty for anyone else s sins so we can have no original guilt from adam but also according to ezekiel god will not hold innocent anyone on the basis of anyone elses innocense thus jesus could not be our federal head any more than adam if that s what ezekiel is talking about shall you make ezekiel contradict the second commandemnt as well ezekiel rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committted and get a new heart and a new spirit why will you die o house of israel for i take no pleasure in the death of anyone declares the sovereign lord repent and live the way to please god is to repent and get a new heart and spirit kids cannot do this acts says that when we repent and are baptized we will then receive a new spirit the holy spirit then we shall live ezekiel indicates that this new heart will be given by god in the context of the sprinkling of water in baptism it is the action of god puting them into his new order and not a question of personal faith as such romans therefore just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin and in this way death came to all men because all sinned sin and death entered the world when the first man sinned death came to each man because each man sinned note that it s good to read through all of romans some of the verses are easier to misunderstand than others but if we read them in context we will see that they are all saying basically the same thing let s look at one such but the death that came to all because of sin is not just their personal death but the dead state originbal sin we are in a covenant of death because adam our federal head gave over his dominion to the devil and death psalm surely i was sinful at birth sinful from the time my mother conceived me this whole psalm is a wonderful example of how we should humble ourselves before god in repentance for sinning david himself was a man after god s own heart and wrote the psalm after committing adultry with bathsheba and murdering her husband all that david is saying here is that he can t remember a time when he wasn t sinful he is humbling himself before god by confessing his sinfulness his saying that he was sinful at birth is a hyperbole the bible being inspired by god isn t limited to a literal interpetation but also uses figures of speech as did jesus john for another example of hyperbole see luke while this psalm is figurative in it s language it is not hyperbolic and the one does not necessarily imply the other there is not other hyperbolic language in this psalm what v is likely refering to is what is symbolized by the ot cleanliness laws which make intercourse and childbrith both acts which caus uncleannes and seperation from god the whole psalm is in the language of ot ritual hyssop cleansing burnt offering etc david s sin with bathsheba included this element as he did not ritually cleanse himself when he should have but what was symbolized by the ot ritual was the truth that sin was passed generationally that s why the organ of generation had to be cut that s why brith was unclean uncleanness was death and all babies were born dead and needed to be washed to newness of life which we have in baptism today paul duggan
soc.religion.christian	re hate the sin in article may athos rutgers edu scott prism gatech edu scott holt writes hate begets more hate never love consider some sin i ll leave it unnamed since i don t want this to digress into an argument as to whether or not something is a sin now lets apply our hate the sin philosophy and see what happens if we truly hate the sin then the more we see it the stronger our hatred of it will become eventually this hate becomes so strong that we become disgusted with the sinner and eventually come to hate the sinner though you can certaily assert all this i don t see why it necessarily has to be the case why can t hate just stay as it is and not beget more who says we have to get disgusted and start hating the sinner i admit this happens but i donlt think you can say it is always necessaily so why can we not hate with a perfect hatred in the summary of the law christ commands us to love god and to love our neighbors he doesn t say anything about hate in fact if anything he commands us to save our criticisms for ourselves so how are christians supposed to deal with the sin of others i suppose that there is only one way to deal with sin either in others or ourselves through prayer we certainly we should love even our enemies amos says to hate the evil and love the good this can t contradict christ s teaching i think we tie up both hate and love with an emotional attitude when it really should be considered more objectively surely i don t fly into a rage at every sin i see but why can i not hate it paul duggan
soc.religion.christian	the crowd before pilate in a post of april considering disasters as instances of the judgements of god in history andy byler spoke of the desire of the jerusalem mob who crucified the lord that his blood be upon us vera noyes replied may i will not comment here for fear of being heavily flamed i invite them both and other interested parties as well to read my comments on this verse of scripture to obtain them send the message get choosing barabbas to listserv asuacad bitnet or to listserv asuvm inre asu edu putting it briefly i think that the significance of the demands of the jerusalem crowd has usually been greatly misunderstood both by christian and by anti christian readers yours james kiefer you should send email to that address with the contents of the message being a single line containing the get command the subject line is apparently ignored at least by asuvm clh
soc.religion.christian	trinity james green writes can t someone describe someone s trinity in simple declarative sentences that have common meaning i offer him four attempts first is an essay by me largely indebted to attempts two and three obtainable by sending the message get trinity analogy to listserv asuacad bitnet or to listserv asuvm inre asu edu second is a couple of books by dorothy l sayers a play called the zeal of thy house and a non fiction book called the mind of the maker the play can be found in the book four sacred plays and also in various other collections including one called religious drama meridian books and one called best plays of third is the book mere christianity by c s lewis particularly the last section called beyond personality fourth is a book called theology for beginners by the roman catholic writer frank sheed i will say that i do not find sheed s approach altogether satisfying but i know some persons whose minds i respect who do yours james kiefer
soc.religion.christian	re christianity in crisis by hank hanegraaff in article may athos rutgers edu af yfn ysu edu frank decenso jr writes has anyone read this important book if so what are your feelings about it frank if one wished to contend with him he could not answer him one time out of a thousand job hi frank i ve read it a couple of times and i think that it is excellent christiandom has needed this book for some time now i suggest that every christian read it according to hank they printed times more than harvest house usually prints for the first printing and it still sold out in the first week it is in it s second printing and most christian book stores have waiting lists you can order it directly from cri at tony
soc.religion.christian	re hate the sin in article may athos rutgers edu scott prism gatech edu scott holt writes hate the sin but love the sinner i ve heard that quite a bit recently often in the context of discussions about christianity and homosexuality but the context really isn t that important my question is whether that statement is consistent with christianity i would think not hate begets more hate never love consider some sin i ll leave it unnamed since i don t want this to digress into an argument as to whether or not something is a sin now lets apply our hate the sin philosophy and see what happens if we truly hate the sin then the more we see it the stronger our hatred of it will become eventually this hate becomes so strong that we become disgusted with the sinner and eventually come to hate the sinner in addition our hatred of the sin often causes us to say and do things which are taken personally by the sinner who often does not even believe what they are doing is a sin after enough of this the sinner begins to hate us they certainly don t love us for our constant criticism of their behavior hate builds up and drives people away from god this certainly cannot be a good way to build love i don t agree but i can only speak for myself i have a good friend whose lifestyle is very sinful do i hate the things she does to herself and others yes do i hate her absolutely not in fact she tells me repeatedly that i am the best friend she has in the world i care about her very much despite the fact that i hate how she lives her life it s very easy to fall into the progression you describe above i ve felt it with my friend more than once there is a very important part of christianity that you ve overlooked above and makes it possible to love the sin but hate the sinner before i look at someone else s life and sin i look to myself and am as disgusted by what i see in me as i see in others probably more self righteousness is contradictory to christianity and is what makes the progression you describe happen if a christian can truthfully quote paul and say wretched man that i am romans nasb that christian will be able to love the sinner and hate the sin if we have the attitude of the pharisee who said i thank thee that i am not like other men luke nasb we will hate both scott at brandeis but god demonstrates his the lord bless you and keep you own love for us in that the lord make his face shine on you while we were yet sinners and be gracious to you christ died for us the lord lift up his countenance on you and give you peace romans nasb numbers nasb
soc.religion.christian	re new thought on deuterocanonicals it is more likely than not that when st john or whomever wrote the book of revelation what was then considered scripture was not the same thing you and i are holding in our hands revelation was almost certainly written durin the reign of domition sp a d thus it could be argues that we are all in sin if we accept peter as scripture since it was added to the book after the composition of revelation when we are told to add nothing more okay i went back and looked sure enough my hunch was right peter was most likely written between a d revelation was almost certainly written between a d odds are the gospel of john was written around a d best dates for luke and acts are around a d maybe later again this is from footnoted information in the new american bible the best translation i ve come across in regards to giving complete historical information about each book mike of course the folks who you re arguing with almost certainly do not accept peter as being pseudonymous in that case they d have to date it far earlier than this clh
soc.religion.christian	re new thought on deuterocanonicals mdw uxa cso uiuc edu michael d walker writes often times most recently on this list in the last few days i ve heard the passage from revelation whoever adds to the sacred words of this book whoever removes words from this book i feel this is ridiculous for two reasons good reasons deleted ai if one takes the translation of this book in rev or somewhere around there to mean all of scripture then all of us are likely holding something that is in violation of this command it s even worse than that ye shall not add unto the word which i command you neither shall ye diminish from it deut shall we rip out every page from our bibles beginning from joshua through revelation a idler
soc.religion.christian	goedel and the ontological argument fred gilham asks whether it is true that goedel wrote a version of the ontological argument for the existence of god yes it is true someone has published a rebuttal pointing out certain flaws in the argument and recently professor c anthony anderson of the philosophy department of the university of minnesota has written a revised version of the argument perhaps free of flaws and at any rate free of the flaws complained of in the original version he has sent me a copy which i still have i saw it last week when i was looking for something else and when it surfaces again i can supply particulars my guess is that it is being published or already has been in the journal of symbolic logic yours james kiefer
soc.religion.christian	re definition of christianity in article may athos rutgers edu autry magellan stlouis sgi com larry autry writes i have enrolled in the history of christianity at a college here in st louis the teacher of the class is what i consider to be closed minded and bigotted on the subject of what the definition of christianity is his definition is tied directly to that of the trinity and the catholic church s definition of it and belief in jesus christ is not sufficient to call one s self a christian what you call the trinity and the catholic church s definition of it is precisely the result of the first christians getting together and trying to find an acceptable answer to your question what is a christian i can t see what you are objecting to someone is saying what historians of all beliefs would agree on and you are calling him a closed minded bigot you really ought to say what you mean by belief in jesus christ it is not a wording that is sufficient to describe a christian muslims believe in jesus christ although they believe he was a prophet and not the incarnated son of god but followers of eastern religions might be quite happy to say that jesus was the incarnation of god along with large numbers of other historical and mythical figures so perhaps you ought to rephrase your question and say precisely what it is in the traditional definitions of what it is to be a christian as handed down by the universal church you object to but regard as unnecessary for being a christian matthew huntbach
soc.religion.christian	how to dispose of old blessed palms what is the proper way to dispose of old blessed palms i ve have a bunch that i ve been holding onto in addition my mom has been giving me her s i used to give them to my uncle who would burn them and leave the ashes to seep into the ground should i do the same could i just bury them could i add them to my compost bin thanks in advance tony
soc.religion.christian	arsenokoitai bailey boswell continuing with dr deyoung s article survey of new interpretations of arsenokoitai d s bailey d s bailey was perhaps the trailblazer of new assessments of the meaning of arsenokoitai he takes the term in i cor as denoting males who actively engage in homosexual acts in contrast to malakoi effeminate those who engage passively in such acts however he insists that paul knew nothing of inversion as an inherited trait or an inherent condition due to psychological or glandular causes and consequently regards all homosexual practice as evidence of perversion hence bailey limits the term s reference in paul s works to acts alone and laments modern translations of the term as homosexuals bailey wants to distinguish between the homosexual condition which is morally neutral and homosexual practices italics in source paul is precise in his terminology and moffatt s translation sodomites best represents paul s meaning in bailey s judgment bailey clearly denies that the homosexual condition was known by biblical writers j boswell the most influential study of arsenokoitai among contemporary authors is that of john boswell whereas the usual translation of this term gives it either explicitly or implicitly an active sense boswell gives it a passive sense in an extended discussion of the term he cites linguistic evidence and common sense to support his conclusion that the word means male sexual agents i e active male prostitutes his argument is that the arseno part of the word is adjectival not the object of the koitai which refers to base sexual activity hence the term according to boswell designates a male sexual person or male prostitute he acknowledges however that most interpret the composite term as active meaning those who sleep with make their bed with men boswell bases his interpretation on linguistics and the historical setting he argues that in some compounds such as paidomathes child learner the paido is the subject of manthano and in others such as paidoporos through which a child passes the paido is neither subject nor object but simply a modifier without verbal significance his point is that each compound must be individually analyzed for its meaning more directly he maintains that compounds with the attic form arreno employ it objectively while those with the hellenistic arseno use it as an adjective yet he admits exceptions to this distinction regarding arreno boswell next appeals to the latin of the time namely drauci or exoleti these were male prostitutes having men or women as their objects the greek arsenokoitai is the equivalent of the latin drauci the corresponding passive would be parakoitai one who lies beside boswell affirms he claims that arsenokoitai was the most explicit word available to paul for a male prostitute since by paul s time the attic words pornos fornicator and porneuon one committing fornication found also in the lxx had been adopted to refer to men who resorted to female prostitutes or simply committed fornication in the absence of the term from pagan writers such as herodotus plato aristotle and plutarch and from the jewish writers philo and josephus boswell finds even more convincing evidence for his affirmation that arsenokoitai did not connote homosexual or even sodomite in the time of paul he also demonstrates its absence in pseudo lucian sextus empiricus and libanius he subsequently finds it lacking in all discussions of homosexual relation among christian sources in greek including the didache tatian justin martyr eusebius clement of alexandria gregory of nyssa and john chrysostom chrysostom is singled out for his omission as final proof that the word could not mean homosexuality boswell next appeals to the omission of the texts of i cor and i tim from discussions of homosexuality among latin church fathers cited are tertullian arnobius lactantius and augustine the last named uses circumlocutions other latin writers include ausonius cyprian and minucius felix the term is also lacking in state and in church legislation by the sixth century the term became confused and was applied to a variety of sexual activities from child molesting to anal intercourse between a husband and wife having surveyed the sources boswell concludes there is no reason to believe that either arsenokoitai or malakoi connoted homosexuality in the time of paul or for centuries thereafter and every reason to suppose that whatever they came to mean they were not determinative of christian opinion on the morality of homosexual acts it is clear throughout that boswell defines arsenokoitai to refer to male prostitutes he even goes so far as to conclude that paul would probably not disapprove of gay inclination gay relationships enduring love between persons of the same gender or same sex eroticism d s bailey homosexuality and the western christian tradition london j boswell christianity social tolerance and homosexuality chicago several tranlation of i tim are kjv them that defile themselves with mankind asv abusers of themselves with men nasb homosexuals rsv nkjv nrsv sodomites neb niv perverts gnb sexual perverts in i cor these occur kjv abusers of themselves with mankind asv abusers of themselves with men nasb rsv homosexuals nkjv sodomites neb homosexual persversion the rsv and neb derive their translation from two greek words malakoi and arsenokoitai which gbn has as homosexual perverts nrsv has the two words as male prostitutes in the text and sodomites in the footnote the active idea predominates among the commentators as well it is the primary assumption boswell christianity yet this was no a word available to paul for a male prostitute for it does not occur at all in any literature prior to paul as a serach in the thesaurus linguae graecae using ibycuc confirms if paul coined the term it would have no prior history and all such discussion about its lack of usage in contemporary non christian and christian literature is meaningless again this would be expected if paul coined the word the key phrase here apparently is discussoin for boswell admits later n that it occurs in quotes of paul but there is no discussion in the context hence the implication is that we cannot tell what these writer polycarp to the philippian theophilus ad autolycum nilus epistularum libri quattuor cyril of alexandria homiliae diversae sybilline oravle meant yet polycarp who was a disiple of hohn the apostle and died about a d argues in the context that young men should be pure he uses only the three terms pornoi malakoi and arsenokoitai from paul s list this at least makes boswell s use of all subjective apparently clement of alexandria paedogogus sromata also belong here yet eusebius uses it in demonstraionis evangelicae either boswell is misrepresenting the facts about chrysostom s use of arsenokoitai and its form about in the vice lists of i cor or i tim or he is begging the question by denying that the word can mean homosexual when chrysostom uses it yet the meaning of arsenokoitai is the goal of his and our study whether in the lists or other discussions boswell later admits that chrysostom uses the almost identicl form arsenokoitos in his commentary on i cor although boswell suggests that the passage is strange it may be that paul is seeking to make a refinement in arsenokoitai apparently jerome is a significant omission here since he renders arsenokoitai as masculorum concubitores corresponding almost exactly to the greek n footnotes d s bailey homosexuality and the western christian tradition london j boswell christianity social tolerance and homosexuality chicago several tranlation of i tim are kjv them that defile themselves with mankind asv abusers of themselves with men nasb homosexuals rsv nkjv nrsv sodomites neb niv perverts gnb sexual perverts in i cor these occur kjv abusers of themselves with mankind asv abusers of themselves with men nasb rsv homosexuals nkjv sodomites neb homosexual persversion the rsv and neb derive their translation from two greek words malakoi and arsenokoitai which gbn has as homosexual perverts nrsv has the two words as male prostitutes in the text and sodomites in the footnote the active idea predominates among the commentators as well it is the primary assumption boswell christianity yet this was no a word available to paul for a male prostitute for it does not occur at all in any literature prior to paul as a serach in the thesaurus linguae graecae using ibycuc confirms if paul coined the term it would have no prior history and all such discussion about its lack of usage in contemporary non christian and christian literature is meaningless again this would be expected if paul coined the word the key phrase here apparently is discussoin for boswell admits later n that it occurs in quotes of paul but there is no discussion in the context hence the implication is that we cannot tell what these writer polycarp to the philippian theophilus ad autolycum nilus epistularum libri quattuor cyril of alexandria homiliae diversae sybilline oravle meant yet polycarp who was a disiple of hohn the apostle and died about a d argues in the context that young men should be pure he uses only the three terms pornoi malakoi and arsenokoitai from paul s list this at least makes boswell s use of all subjective apparently clement of alexandria paedogogus sromata also belong here yet eusebius uses it in demonstraionis evangelicae either boswell is misrepresenting the facts about chrysostom s use of arsenokoitai and its form about in the vice lists of i cor or i tim or he is begging the question by denying that the word can mean homosexual when chrysostom uses it yet the meaning of arsenokoitai is the goal of his and our study whether in the lists or other discussions boswell later admits that chrysostom uses the almost identicl form arsenokoitos in his commentary on i cor although boswell suggests that the passage is strange it may be that paul is seeking to make a refinement in arsenokoitai apparently jerome is a significant omission here since he renders arsenokoitai as masculorum concubitores corresponding almost exactly to the greek n next r scroggs
soc.religion.christian	re bernadette dates jek cu nih gov writes joe moore writes mary at that time appeared to a girl named bernadette at lourdes she referred to herself as the immaculate conception since a nine year old would have no way of knowing about the doctrine the apparition was deemed to be true and it sealed the case for the doctrine bernadette was years old when she had her visions in four years after the dogma had been officially proclaimed by the pope yours james kiefer i forgot exactly what her age was but i remember clearly that she was born in a family of poverty and she did not have any education whatsoever at the age of the apparitions she suffered from asthma at that age and she and her family were living in a prison cell of some sort she had to ask the lady several times in her apparitions about what her name was since her confessor priest asked her to do so for several instances the priest did not get an answer since bernadette did not receive any one time after several apparitions passed the lady finally said i am the immaculate conception so bernadette was so happy and repeated these words over and over in her mind so as not to forget it before she told the priest who was asking so when she told the priest the priest was shocked and asked bernadette do you know what you are talking about bernadette did not know what exactly it meant but she was just too happy to have the answer for the priest the priest continued with how did you remember this if you do not know bernadette answered honestly that she had to repeat it over and over in her mind while on her way to the priest the priest knew about the dogma being four years old then but bernadette did not know and yet she had the answer which the priest finally observed and took as proof of an authentic personal revelation of our lady to bernadette note this lady of lourdes shrine has a spring of water which our lady requested bernadette to dig up herself with her bare hands in front of pilgrims at the start little water flowed but after several years there is more water flowing marida spreading god s words through actions mother teresa
soc.religion.christian	daily verse king james compare this with previous version from niv but whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely and shall be quiet from fear of evil proverbs
soc.religion.christian	re christianity in crisis from bit listserv christia zane writes from facn b saupm bitnet zane of dhahan newsgroups bit listserv christia subject christianity in crisis date wed may frank first of all thanks for all of the great scripture verses it was a pleasure to read them my reply you are welcome zane zane i am sure nothing that i will say will change your mind about it but i would like to ask you if the book in question really does anything for you i mean were you all caught up in the word faith thing but now that you have read the book you ve been rescued from all of the error and pain that will result in your christian life my reply when i first became a christian i entered into the word faith movement it was easy i wasn t grounded in the word of god and sound doctrine when i visited christian book stores the cheapest books i could find to buy were the and books by hagin and others consequently i began receiving hagin s monthly magazine and they still send it to me and also copeland s also still sent to me it wasn t until i read a booklet by jimmy swaggart called hyper faith the new gnosticism that i began to realize the teachings i were partaking of were error i started reading the bible more and studying more sure enough jimmy was right in many points as part of my experience i am alerting christians particularly new christians that these teachings are heretical and they need to do as the bereans did in acts check these teachings out with scripture my brother in law was involved in a word faith cult in my area it s leader is real good friends with benny hinn rather then going into much detail about this suffice it to say he was deceived mistreated and has now fallen into atheism i m still praying for him phil the assistant pastor at the church i teach adult sunday school in has been a follower of copeland for years he has thousands of tapes by the faith teachers in the class recently i quoted several of the teachers heretical statements to his surprise since then i ve been able to talk to him at length about these issues the leader of the women s group at my church is a benny hinn fan recently i found that she has been lending good morning holy spirit to women in the church that prompted my quotes in sunday school as well as my lending cic to people in the church i m well aware of the abuses and heresies perpetrated in this movement and have an urgency in my heart and life to warn people about the heresies what heresies a jesus became sin took on the very nature of the devil and became one with him b jesus death on the cross wasn t enough to atone c jesus was dragged to hell after his death was beat and abused by satan and demons thus finishing our atonement satan was ruling over him there d jesus was born again in hell e jesus died spiritually lost his divinity and reassumed it after the resurrection f we are gods these are heresies documentation will be provided re these teachings upon request zane or what does it do for you is it preventing you from going out and joining up with the word faith movement which you d been contemplating joining for so long but now that you ve read the book you ve been saved from all of that my reply it wasn t christianity in crisis that helped me it was a booklet by swaggart that i mentioned above but cic is much much better tremendous documentation and insights zane i don t have a nice scriptural answer for why i believe it is at best un profitable for christians to engage in this type of activity heresy hunting my reply why do you call it heresy hunting hunting implies it isn t readily accessible or available this movement is the fastest growing movement in christendom hagin has sold over million books and booklets hinn has sold more books in the last couple of years than swindoll and dobson combined fred price has the largest church in terms of seating capacity in the usa doesn t sound like much hunting is needed it is scriptural to expose doctrinal error i gave some verses to you before more can be given most of the epistles were written due to error doctrinal practical in the churches the early church had numerous councils to expose error and heresy it s not a new thing remember luther zane i would like to point out though that historically those who hunt heretics often end up causing a bigger mess than the heretics but this is my un documented opinion my reply if you can provide documentation it would be appreciated read ephesians esp vss and and tell me what causes disunity and immaturity in the body eph till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the son of god to a perfect man to the measure of the stature of the fullness of christ that we should no longer be children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the trickery of men in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting disunity contrary to popular opinion isn t caused by exposing error it s caused by error zane there are many who probably give no place for seeing the scriptures as documenting a spiritual development or growth in its writers but i would suggest that the fiery paul of the letter to the galatians mellows and matures into the one who loses all for the sake of love in the end my reply most scholars believe paul wrote timothy last let s examine his admonitions to tim to ascertain how mellow he had become ti hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me in faith and love which are in christ jesus that good thing which was committed to you keep by the holy spirit who dwells in us this you know that all those in asia have turned away from me among whom are phygellus and hermogenes ti be diligent to present yourself approved to god a worker who does not need to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth but shun profane and idle babblings for they will increase to more ungodliness and their message will spread like cancer hymenaeus and philetus are of this sort who have strayed concerning the truth saying that the resurrection is already past and they overthrow the faith of some ti and a servant of the lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all able to teach patient in humility correcting those who are in opposition if god perhaps will grant them repentance so that they may know the truth and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil having been taken captive by him to do his will ti for of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins led away by various lusts always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth now as jannes and jambres resisted moses so do these also resist the truth men of corrupt minds disapproved concerning the faith but they will progress no further for their folly will be manifest to all as theirs also was ti yes and all who desire to live godly in christ jesus will suffer persecution but evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse deceiving and being deceived but you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of knowing from whom you have learned them and that from childhood you have known the holy scriptures which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in christ jesus all scripture is given by inspiration of god and is profitable for doctrine for reproof for correction for instruction in righteousness that the man of god may be complete thoroughly equipped for every good work ti preach the word be ready in season and out of season convince rebuke exhort with all longsuffering and teaching for the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine but according to their own desires because they have itching ears they will heap up for themselves teachers and they will turn their ears away from the truth and be turned aside to fables but you be watchful in all things endure afflictions do the work of an evangelist fulfill your ministry ti alexander the coppersmith did me much harm may the lord repay him according to his works you also must beware of him for he has greatly resisted our words zane the picture i have of paul is not of one who goes out of his way to destroy the ministry of wolves but of one who teaches the sheep with many tears the necessity of absolutely not allowing themselves to be transformed into wolves to protect themselves my reply act therefore i testify to you this day that i am innocent of the blood of all men for i have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of god therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock among which the holy spirit has made you overseers to shepherd the church of god which he purchased with his own blood for i know this that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you not sparing the flock also from among yourselves men will rise up speaking perverse things to draw away the disciples after themselves therefore watch and remember that for three years i did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears zane for all the warning paul does it is of note that he never once drops a name of a wolf but i will admit he cries in his beard at the end over those who have abandoned him everyone in asia wasn t it my reply paul mentioned names ti this charge i commit to you son timothy according to the prophecies previously made concerning you that by them you may wage the good warfare having faith and a good conscience which some having rejected concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck of whom are hymenaeus and alexander whom i delivered to satan that they may learn not to blaspheme ti this you know that all those in asia have turned away from me among whom are phygellus and hermogenes ti but shun profane and idle babblings for they will increase to more ungodliness and their message will spread like cancer hymenaeus and philetus are of this sort who have strayed concerning the truth saying that the resurrection is already past and they overthrow the faith of some ti for demas has forsaken me having loved this present world and has departed for thessalonica crescens for galatia titus for dalmatia ti alexander the coppersmith did me much harm may the lord repay him according to his works you also must beware of him for he has greatly resisted our words so did john jo i wrote to the church but diotrephes who loves to have the preeminence among them does not receive us therefore if i come i will call to mind his deeds which he does prating against us with malicious words and not content with that he himself does not receive the brethren and forbids those who wish to putting them out of the church jesus also singled out teachings and doctrines rev but i have a few things against you because you have there those who hold the doctrine of balaam who taught balak to put a stumbling block before the children of israel to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit sexual immorality thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the nicolaitans which thing i hate repent or else i will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth rev nevertheless i have a few things against you because you allow that woman jezebel who calls herself a prophetess to teach and seduce my servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols and i gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality and she did not repent indeed i will cast her into a sickbed and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation unless they repent of their deeds i will kill her children with death and all the churches shall know that i am he who searches the minds and hearts and i will give to each one of you according to your works zane i question too the purposes of those who write books and build ministries on the faults deliberate or otherwise of others maybe if they would wander around in the desert eating locust and honey or barely cakes with no worldly goods at stake money to be made or no reputations to maintain i would question their motives conscious or otherwise less my reply i won t comment on this because it deals with the intangible motives of others but even if they had bad motives remember what paul said phi some indeed preach christ even from envy and strife and some also from good will the former preach christ from selfish ambition not sincerely supposing to add affliction to my chains but the latter out of love knowing that i am appointed for the defense of the gospel what then only that in every way whether in pretense or in truth christ is preached and in this i rejoice yes and will rejoice zane if we want to be true to the admonitions of scripture many of which you list about protecting ourselves and the flock from wolves and winds of doctrines i suggest we start by allowing the wolf program in our own noetic pasture to be nailed to the cross my reply please explain zane secondly i suggest any heresy hunting be restricted to our own fellowships which in the strict scriptural sense is the local city church my reply if heresy was not being propagated over the mass media then it may not be needed to go mass media with the exposure unfortunately heresy is being taught not just in copeland s church or hagin s or hinn s or price s but all over the radio in print etc no pastor or church leader knows what materials the sheep are feeding on outside the church it s imperative that leadership be made aware of this and cic does just that also let s examine a passage of scripture eph and he himself gave some to be apostles some prophets some evangelists and some pastors and teachers eph for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry for the edifying of the body of christ these ministry gifts that the lord installs in the church are not just for one individual church but for the body of christ paul was an apostle he traveled all over distilling his message he was also a teacher co for this reason i have sent timothy to you who is my beloved and faithful son in the lord who will remind you of my ways in christ as i teach everywhere in every church co but as god has distributed to each one as the lord has called each one so let him walk and so i ordain in all the churches also co and god has appointed these in the church first apostles second prophets third teachers after that miracles then gifts of healings helps administrations varieties of tongues eph till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the son of god to a perfect man to the measure of the stature of the fullness of christ notice that the five fold ministries are going to be around till the church is in unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the son of god to a perfect man this i believe will not occur fully until the lord jesus returns see cor but god wants the body to continue on maturing what hinders maturity and unity of the body eph that we should no longer be children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the trickery of men in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting it s clear that false doctrine integrated into the church by the trickery of men causes disunity the thing we are striving for and spiritual immaturity the church continues in spiritual childhood when christians are tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine the five fold ministry of which there does not appear to be clear scriptural denominational boundaries pastors appear responsible for their individual flock is to deal with these doctrines when necessary in their struggle to equip the body all believers are called to do this to a degree jud beloved while i was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation i found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints for certain men have crept in unnoticed who long ago were marked out for this condemnation ungodly men who turn the grace of our god into lewdness and deny the only lord god and our lord jesus christ zane if you ll notice in scripture the heresy hunters that went from church to church and area to area were the bad guys and they went after the good guy namely paul who they considered to be the arch heretic my reply they were themselves heretics trying to discredit paul who was preaching contrary to what they taught zane let s face it the wolves are here for a reason and we are here for the reason and let s hope the wolves become sheep and the sheep lambs my reply yes ti and a servant of the lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all able to teach patient in humility correcting those who are in opposition if god perhaps will grant them repentance so that they may know the truth and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil having been taken captive by him to do his will amen frank if one wished to contend with him he could not answer him one time out of a thousand job
soc.religion.christian	christianity and holy things ezek god seems to be upset with the priests who have made no difference between the holy and the profane this brought to my mind a sermon i heard recently in which the speaker said god s second name does not begin with a d referring i believe to use of god s holy name and titles as swear words i was also reminded of the experience of moses at the burning bush when god told him take off your sandals for the place where you are standing is holy ground these and other texts seem to imply that god s people must treat holy things differently from other common things or make a difference between holy and common things the obvious questions are what makes something holy and how are christians primarily supposed to make this difference between holy and common things e g god s name the holy spirit the holy bible etc darius
soc.religion.christian	daily verse but whoever listens to me will live in safety and be at ease without fear of harm proverbs
soc.religion.christian	re on capital punishment gt b prism gatech edu randal lee nicholas mandock writes regarding the new draft of the universal catechism in procuring the common good of society the need could arise that the aggressor be placed in the position where he cannot cause harm by virtue of this the right and obligation of public authorities to punish with proportionate penalties including the death penalty is acknowledged to the degree that means other than the death penalty and military operations are sufficient to keep the peace then these non violent provisions are to be preferred because they are more in proportion and in keeping with the final goal of protection of peace and human dignity exactly read that one sentence in there to the degree that means other than the death penalty and military operations are sufficient to keep the peace then these non violent provisions are to be preferred i don t believe that it is necessary for us to murder criminals to keep the peace the church in the united states feels the same way thus the reason that the catholic church has opposed every execution in this country in recent memory as is clearly shown by this excerpt the church s teaching on capital punishment remains today as it has always been in the past in total accord with my sentiment that i do not disagree with the use of deadly force in those cases for which this option is justifiable so what is justifiable as you stated very explicitly from the new catechism the only justifiable case is when it is necessary to keep the peace since that does not apply at all to this country the logical conclusion based on your own premises is that one must be opposed to any form of capital punishment in america just my opinions mike walker univ of illinois
soc.religion.christian	re homosexual issues in christianity in article may athos rutgers edu mserv mozart cc iup edu mail server writes i can see that some of the above verses do not clearly address the issues however a couple of them seem as though they do not require incredibly perverse interpretations in order to be seen as condemning homosexuality would someone care to comment on the fact that the above seems to say fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of god how does this apply to homosexuals i understand fornication to be sex outside of marriage is this an accurate definition is there any such thing as same sex marriage in the bible my understanding has always been that the new testament blesses sexual intercourse only between a husband and his wife i am however willing to listen to scriptural evidence to the contrary if we take things this literally then we must also forbid women from speaking in church paul while led by the holy spirit was human and could err i find it interesting that christ never discussed the issue of homosexuality certainly it existed back then and if it was a serious transgression christ would have condemned it i find it disturbing that the modern church spends its energy trying to stamp out something that christ didn t consider worth a single word of condemnation christ repeatedly warns us against judgement don t we risk judgement in equal measure when we condemn people who god himself did not judge when he walked on the earth the love of christ is contagious i should not that many of our readers do in fact advocate forbiding women from speaking in church this is an issue we have discussed in the past and i m not interested in redoing clh
soc.religion.christian	re hate the sin scott prism gatech edu scott holt writes hate the sin but love the sinner i ve heard that quite a bit recently often in the context of discussions about christianity and homosexuality but the context really isn t that important my question is whether that statement is consistent with christianity i would think not hate begets more hate never love consider some sin i ll leave it unnamed since i don t want this to digress into an argument as to whether or not something is a sin now lets apply our hate the sin philosophy and see what happens if we truly hate the sin then the more we see it the stronger our hatred of it will become eventually this hate becomes so strong that we become disgusted with the sinner and eventually come to hate the sinner in addition our hatred of the sin often causes us to say and that is an assumption on your part where is your proof that one always will degenerate into hating the sinner because he hates the sin i am reminded of the civil rights movement in america it is true that many individuals hated the proponents of racism it is also true that many individuals hated segregation and discrimination with their whole heart and never degenerated into hating the individuals who practiced it dr king s message was this love the individual the loving of the individual would transform him into a friend however this did not take away his hatred for segregation his hatred for injustice in the summary of the law christ commands us to love god and to love our neighbors he doesn t say anything about hate in fact if anything he commands us to save our criticisms for ourselves so how are christians supposed to deal with the sin of others i suppose that there is only one way to deal with sin either in others or ourselves through prayer we need to ask god to help us with our own sin and to help those we love with theirs only love can conquer sin hatred has no place the best way to love someone is to pray for them i would ask did john the baptist practice love when he criticized the jewish leaders of his day did jesus practice love when he threw the moneychangers out of the temple we must have at least a distase for sin we must in order to fight it in ourselves also we must be ready for the call from god to call sin by its right name jesus loved everyone but he called sin by its right name it is true that love for others is to guide every step of our walk but it is also true that sometimes the love for god calls us to stand up for truth competition is the law of the jungle cooperation is the law of civilization eldridge cleaver sherman cox ii scox uahcs cs uah edu
soc.religion.christian	re satan kicked out of heaven biblical someone asked about biblical support for the image of satan as a fallen angel rev and enoch have been cited clh there is also a verse in luke that says he jesus saw satan fall from heaven it s something like that i don t have my bible in front of me or i would quote it directly but it s a pretty obvious reference to satan s expulsion justin i believe the reference is to luke the context of the passage makes it possible that jesus is referring to satan being defeated by jesus mission rather than a previous fall from heaven clh
soc.religion.christian	is this ethical the following was published in the may th rocky mountain news i guess i have some real ethical problems with the practices at this church i understand that baptism is an overriding factor i also understand that this is not an honest way to proceed unfortunately this is becoming more typical of congregations as the second coming is perceived to approach there is a real element of disparation in this make it happen at any cost style of theology i wonder where trust in the lord fits into this equation baptisms draw parents ire children at church carnival in springs told they d be killed by bee stings if they didn t submit to religious rite by dick foster rocky mountain news southern bureau colorado springs outraged parents say their children were lured to a church carnival and then baptixed without their permission by a baptist minister doxens of children some as young as years old and unaccompanied by their parents thought they were going to a carnival at the cornerstone baptist church where there would be a big water fight free balloons squirt guns and candy before that may carnival was over however children were whisked into a room for religious instruction and told they should be baptized in many cases they consented although they or their families are not of the baptist faith the baptisms by the church have angered many parents including paulette lamontagne a methodist and mother of twin year old girls who were baptized without her knowledge or consent my understnading was they were going to a carnival i feel that s a false pretense said lamontagne her daughters said the minister told them they would be killed by bee stings if they were not baptized cornerstone church officials defended their actions we take our instructions from the word of god and god has commanded us to baptize converts no one can show me one passage in the bible where it says that parental permission is required before a child is baptized said dan irwin associate pastor of the cornerstone baptist church church officials did not tell parents their children would be baptized because they didn t ask irwin said many other parents also felt they were simply sending their children to a carnival at the invitation of their children s friends who were members of the cornerstone church police said chhurch officials had broken on laws in baptizing the children but indicated the parents could pursue civil action aren t these the same behaviors we condemn in the hari krishnas and other cults i think the issues are more complex than the newspaper account mentions first i m not entirely sure that parental consent is absolutely required this would be extremely difficult because of the clear commandment to obey parents but if an older child insisted on being baptized without their parents consent i might be willing to do it however this would be a serious step and would warrant much careful discussion the problem i find here is not so much parental consent as that there was nobody s consent whether you believe in infant baptism or not baptism is supposed to be the sign of entry into a christian community if there isn t a commitment from somebody whether parent or child and no intent to become part of the church the baptism appears to be a lie furthermore it is likely to raise serious practical problems what if the child is from a baptist tradition normally when he reaches the age of decision he would be expected to make a decision and be baptized but he already has been by a church claiming to be a baptist church so does he get rebaptized neither answer is really very good if not he s being robbed of an experience that should be very significant to his faith clh
soc.religion.christian	re hate the sin from scott prism gatech edu scott holt subject hate the sin date may gmt hate the sin but love the sinner i ve heard that quite a bit recently my question is whether that statement is consistent with christianity i would think not hate begets more hate never love if you are questioning whether or not hating sin is consistent with christianity i ask you to consider the following scripture romans let love be without hypocrisy hate what is evil cling to what is good what is it that paul through the inspiration of the holy spirit is calling us to hate would god call us to do something that would eventually lead to hating our fellow man especially when he commands us to do the opposite to love your fellow man consider some sin now lets apply our hate the sin philosophy and see what happens if we truly hate the sin then the more we see it the stronger our hatred of it will become eventually this hate becomes so strong that we become disgusted with the sinner and eventually come to hate the sinner that has not been my experience i ve not found myself hating anybody as a result of hating the sin that may be in their life as a sinner myself i find myself having more compassion for the person jesus too since the bible teaches that he was tempted in every way that we are is able to have compassion on us when we our tempted and fall jesus is our very example of how to hate the sin but love the sinner in the account of the woman caught in adultery john jesus had compassion on the woman but he also called her to leave her life of sin this is what it means to love sinners but hate their sin it means loving them unconditionally while at the same time calling them to leave their sin in addition our hatred of the sin often causes us to say and do things which are taken personally by the sinner who often does not even believe what they are doing is a sin the blame for this can not always be laid at the feet of the christian i have seen and been guilty of taking offense by someone merely pointing out my sin and calling me to repent of it it was not unloving for the christian to call me out of sin in fact i believe it was the most loving thing that that person could have done he loved me enough to want to spare me the consequence of remaining in my sin after enough of this the sinner begins to hate us they certainly don t love us for our constant criticism of their behavior hate builds up and drives people away from god this certainly cannot be a good way to build love again i don t think that you can lay the blame for this at the feet of the christian if we have loved them as jesus loved sinners exemplified in john and the sinner hates us for it then we have done the best we can we will have extended to them the most perfect expression of love and they will have rejected it now it we hate the sin but forget to love the sinner then indeed we will ourselves be in sin in the summary of the law christ commands us to love god and to love our neighbors he doesn t say anything about hate i would like to encourage you to do a word study on hate in the new testament i really think that you will be surprised in fact if anything he commands us to save our criticisms for ourselves criticism is very different from calling a sinner to repent hope this helps in christ tony balsamo name antonio l balsamo company digital equipment corp shrewsbury mass work e mail balsamo stargl enet dec com
soc.religion.christian	re definition of christianity in article may athos rutgers edu autry magellan stlouis sgi com larry autry writes the subject of what the definition of christianity is his definition is tied directly to that of the trinity and the catholic church s definition of it and belief in jesus christ is not sufficient to call one s self a christian so is there common definition of what christianity is the basic definition that i use is the belief that jesus was god incarnate the belief that jesus was crucified and raised from the dead for our salvation the acceptance of jesus as personal lord and savior this would include most christian denominations but exclude the unitarians sarima teradata com formerly tdatirv sarima or stanley friesen elsegundoca ncr com
soc.religion.christian	re what was the immaculate conception someone quoted the following i ve removed the name because it s not clear which name goes with which level of quote clh and to holy mary virgin is invariably added for that holy woman remains undefiled st epiphanus of salamis panacea against all heresies between a d for the lord jesus would not have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had judged that she would be so incontinent as to taint the birthplace of the body of the lord home of the eternal king with the seed of human intercourse pope st siricius letter to anysius bishop of thessalonica a d on the basis of these examples i would say that joe moore was only wrong in claiming augustine as a prime mover of the sin sex view these quotes clearly equate sexuality with defilement and incontinance even within the marriage relationship else they would not apply to mary after her marriage to joseph so joe s assignment of the reasoning behind the concept of the perpetual virginity of mary does seem to be supported by these quotes sarima teradata com formerly tdatirv sarima or stanley friesen elsegundoca ncr com
soc.religion.christian	verse divisions i m wondering if anyone knows the answer to a rather trivial question which i ve been thinking about what was the process used to divide the bible into verses i believe jerome divided the new testament but i ve never seen any discussion of how he did this it seems rather arbitrary as opposed to for example making each sentence a verse
soc.religion.christian	re hate the sin scott prism gatech edu scott holt writes hate the sin but love the sinner i ve heard that quite a bit recently my question is whether that statement is consistent with christianity i would think not hate begets more hate never love in the summary of the law christ commands us to love god and to love our neighbors he doesn t say anything about hate in fact if anything he commands us to save our criticisms for ourselves scott i too dislike the phrase hate the sin love the sinner maybe the definite article is also part of the problem since it seems to give us license to fixate on our brother s peculiar pecadillo which we have managed to escape by a common grace of heredity economic situation or culture our outrage at evil is too often just a cheap shot that said i don t think scott has adequately explored the flip side of this coin namely the love of righteousness in the beatitudes jesus blessed those who hungered and thirsted for righteousness in the new testament it is never enough just to behave well one should always actively desire and work for the cause of good in that sense it should be impossible to remain dispassionate about evil and its victims even when these are its accomplices as well maybe mourn sin love sinners catches the idea slightly better than hate but only slightly since grief usually implies a passive powerless position a balanced christian response needs grief love and carefully measured constructive anger jesus has all three the european pietists during wwii whose response to nazi atrocities was devoid of anger do not fare well as role models however much love or grief they exemplified my sister is an actress in new york and a christian a few years back jack her long time professional friend and benefactor died of aids impoverished by medical bills estranged from his family and abandoned by most of his surviving friends only my sister and brother in law were there with him at the very end in her grief over jack s death my sister found quite a few targets for anger callous bureaucracies the rigid self protective moralism of jack s family the inertia in christians response to aids and yes even jack s own lapse in morality that eventually cost him his life jack himself shared that last anger brought up with strong christian values he was contrite over his brief dalliance with promiscuous sex long before his aids appeared i imply no moral judgement here about jack s innate sexual orientation n b maybe the hardest job is making our anger constructive van kelly vek research att com
soc.religion.christian	knights of columbus the initiations ceremony for knights ous is almost as secretive as that for the mafia what are the phases of initation and why the secretiveness dale idqm indyvax iupui edu
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity in article may geneva rutgers edu djohnson cs ucsd edu darin johnson writes ok what s more important to gay christians sex or christianity christianity i would hope would they be willing to forgo sex completely in order to avoid being a stumbling block to others to avoid the chance that their interpretation might be wrong etc if not why not heterosexuals abstain all the time it would be nice if protestant churches had celibate orders to show the world that sex is not the important thing in life the biblical arguments against homosexuality are weak at best yet christ is quite clear about our obligations to the poor how as christians can we demand celibacy from homosexuals when we walk by homeless people and ignore the pleas for help christ is quite clear on our obligations to the poor thought for the day mat and why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother s eye but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye or how wilt thou say to thy brother let me pull out the mote out of thine eye and behold a beam is in thine own eye the love of christ is contagious mat woe unto you scribes and pharisees hypocrites for ye are like unto whited sepulchres which indeed appear beautiful outward but are within full of dead men s bones and of all uncleanness
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity in article may geneva rutgers edu noye midway uchicago edu writes i believe that the one important thing that those who wrote the old and new testament passages cited above did not know was that there is scientific evidence to support that homosexuality is at least partly inherent rather than completely learned this means that to a certain extent or to a great extent homosexuals cannot choose how to feel but one of the most basic concepts of christian morality is that we all have defective appetites due to original sin not just homosexuals but everybody thus we are not entitled to indulge in whatever behavior our bodies want us to i think we need to keep clear the distinction between homosexual behavior which is wrong and homosexual orientation which is not a sin merely a misfortune please no email replies respond in this public forum michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
soc.religion.christian	eros in lxx concluding lexicographic note this might be better directed to s r c bible study which i have begun reading but since my earlier notes were posted to this forum i will conclude here as well a week ago i managed to find time to consult a septuagint concordance and a lxx text with apparatus at the library and i can now usefully conclude my look at the greek words for love as used in the christian background of the septuagintal translation of the jewish scriptures the principal result is that there is a cluster of uses of the verbal noun from erao eraste s meaning lover this cluster occurs just where one might most expect it in the propethic image and accusation of israel as faithless spouse to yhwh the verses in question are hosea jeremiah lamentations and ezekiel and hosea seems to have originated this usage which jeremiah and ezekiel picked up lamentations is dependent on though not likely written by jeremiah the erotic meaning in its allegorical use not at all literally is evident so too in english unless you complement it with a phrase like of the arts the word lover is going to have an overtone of sexual relationship there is no surprise here but it is worthwhile to see that standard greek usage does show up in the translations from the hebrew more interestingly and some confirmation of my guess that later koine usage avoided the verb erao because of its homonymy to ero say eromai ask there is an error in codex vaticanus normally a very valuable witness where a form of erao is used in a completely absurd context samuel where the meaning must be say in addition to the above and the uses i have already mentioned in proverbs esther uses the verb in its most natural application kai e rasthe ho basileus esthe r and the king loved esther and rather more interestingly samuel supplies a modest degree of support to the gay appraisal of the relationship of david and jonathan kai io nathan huios saoul e i reito ton dauid sphodra and jonathan saul s son loved david intensely i m using the bracketed i for io ta subscript which i don t yet have a reasonable ascii convention for the relevance of this to the gay issue is not anything implicit about the historical facts but just that a quasi official translation of the hebrew text in the hellenistic period makes no bones about using the erotic verb in this context given the quite general usage of agapao for erotic senses this need not mean anything more than agapao alone would mean but it does disambiguate the relationship as far as this translator goes michael l siemon i say you are gods sons of the mls panix com most high all of you nevertheless or you shall die like men and fall mls ulysses att com like any prince psalm
soc.religion.christian	re earthquake prediction in article may athos rutgers edu dan ingres com a rose arose writes i believe with everything in my heart that on may the city of portland oregon in the country of the united states of america will be hit with a catastrophic and disastrous earthquake by now we know that this did not come to pass surprise surprise i sure didn t lose any sleep over it and i live there mistakes in this area are costly and dangerous for me my greatest fears in this area would be the following were god to call me to be a prophet and i were to misrepresent god s word my calling would be lost forever god s word would command the people never to listen to or fear my words as i would be a false prophet my bridges would be burnt forever perhaps i could repent and be saved but i could never again be a prophet of god suppose someone said that he was sure that he would return from death in glory and power flying in the clouds with the host of heaven soon within the lifetimes of those then standing with him and years went by without any such event he also asserted so they say himself to be god questions is that one of those false prophecies you were talking about does that make the speaker a false prophet speak directly if the lord has given you something to say say it but before i declare thus sayeth the lord i d better know for certain without a shadow of a doubt that i am in the correct spiritual condition and relationship with the lord to receive such a prophecy and be absolutely certain again without the tiniest shadow of a doubt that there is no possibility of my being misled by my own imaginations or by my hope of gaining recognition or of being misled by the wiles of the devil and his followers uhh has it occurred to you that there is no way to know any of these things for certain without the tiniest shadow of a doubt that people who thought they did have also been deluded those of us who believe in actually being able to check our opinions have an out we can check against some external reality those who assert that beliefs entertained without evidence or even despite evidence have a special virtue ie faith are out of luck and this is the result it s time that we christians give an example of honesty that stands out in contrast against this backdrop of falsehood when we say thus sayeth the lord it happens when we pray prayer is answered because we prayed right when we say we re christians we really mean it dan you want to demonstrate christian honesty great start with the prophecy above what can we conclude about the speaker max
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity darin johnson djohnson cs ucsd edu wrote ok what s more important to gay christians sex or christianity christianity i would hope would they be willing to forgo sex completely in order to avoid being a stumbling block to others to avoid the chance that their interpretation might be wrong etc if not why not heterosexuals abstain all the time it would be nice if protestant churches had celibate orders to show the world that sex is not the important thing in life the difference is that straight members are given the choice of abstaining or not and celibacy is recognized as a gift given only to some gays are told that as a condition of acceptance they must be celibate i don t believe that god gives me a forced choice between having a relationship with god and expressing my heterosexuality within the context of a faithful relationship nor do i believe that god gives that forced choice to gays sex or christianity is a false dichotomy to tell the truth gay churches remind me a lot of henry the viii starting the church of england in order to get a divorce or is this a myth note that i am not denying that gay christians are christian for my part gay churches remind me of blacks starting their own churches either because they were not allowed at all in the white churches or at best only with special restrictions that did not apply to white members revdak netcom com
soc.religion.christian	more odb catchy sayings quotes from our daily bread our daily bread is a devotional help for spiritual growth one can spend some ten to fifteen minutes at most reading the daily portion of scriptures and a related short article that brings the scriptures alive in applying in today s society it ends with a saying at the bottom this article is a collection of these sayings our daily bread is one of the many ministries services provided by resources for biblical communication it is free to receive the literature just write and ask for it the contact addresses are listed below write to radio bible class copyright radio bible class grand rapids michigan canada box windsor ontario n a z australia box ryde nsw europe box carnforth lancs england la es africa box manzini swaziland africa pmb jos nigeria philippines box greenhills metro manila sayings with related scriptures in december january february issue of our daily bread when god saves us all our sins are forgiven forgotten forever romans life with christ is difficult without him it s hopeless ecclesiastes it s the sin we cover up that eventually brings us down psalm you re not ready to live until you re ready to die acts trusting in god s power prevents panic isaiah the bible is a record of man s compete ruin in sin and god s compte remedy in christ barnhouse timothy jesus can change the foulest sinners into the finest saints ephesians they witness best who witness with their lives acts god came to dwell with man that man might dwell with god philippians a hurting person needs a helping hand not an accusing finger psalm what you decide about jesus determines your destiny john we must go to sinners if we expect sinners to come to the savior romans knowing that god sees us brings both conviction and cofidence job god s chastening is not cruel but corrective hebrews when you think of all that s good give thanks to god psalm man s greatest goal give glory to god peter god loves every one of us as if there were but one of us to love romans only the bread of life can satisfy man s spiritual hunger john conscience can be our compass if the word of god is our chart timothy salvation is free but you must receive it isaiah if we re not as spiritual as we could be we re not as spiritual as we should be timonty circumstances do not make a man they reveal what he s made of matthew make room for jesus in your heart and he will make room for you in heaven matthew heaven s choir came down to sing when heaven s king came down to save luke god s highest gift awakens man s deepest gratitude luke serving the lord is an investment that pays eternal dividends peter time misspent is not lived but lost psalm the measure of our love is the measure of our sacrifice peter god requires faithfulness god rewards with fruitfulness luke how you spend time determines how you spend eternity psalm if you aim for nothing you re sure to hit it daniel the christian s future is as bright as the promises of god psalm christ as savior brings us peace with god christ as lord brings the peace of god colossians they who only sample the word of god never acquire much of a tast for it psalm unless one drinks now of the water of life he will thirst forever revelation a hyprocrite is a person who is not himself on sunday daniel be life long or short its completeness depends on what it is lived for ecclesiates god loves you and me let s love each other corinthians it s always too soon to quit genesis the character we build in this world we carry into the next matthew god sends trials not to impair us but to improves us corinthians marriage is either a holy wedlock or an unholy deadlock corinthians we are adopted through god s grace to be adapted to god s use galatians our children are watching what we are speak louder than what we say proverbs union with christ is the basis for unity among believers psalm keep out of your life all that would crowd christ out of your heart romans don t try to bear tomorrow s burdens with today s grace matthew pray as if everything depends on god work as if everything depends on you kings some convictions are nothing more than prejudices galatians unless you velieve you will not understand augustine hebrews christ is the only way to heaven all other paths are detours to doom corinthians many christians are doing nothing but no christians have nothing to do john we bury the seed god brings the harvest isaiah the texture of eternity is woven on the looms of time ecclesiastes it s not just what we know about god but how we use what we know corinthians the best way to avoid lying is to do nothing that needs to be concealed acts god transforms trials into blessing by surrounding them with his love and grace chronicles confessing your sins is no substitute for forsaking them psalm if you shoot arrows of envy at others you would yourself philippians he who has no vision of eternity doesn t know the value of time ephesians he who abandons himself to god will never be abandoned by god psalm no danger can come so near the christian that god is not nearer psalm many a man lays down his life trying to lay up a fortune matthew god s grace is infinite love expressing itself through infinite goodness philippians one way to do great things for christ is to do little things for others romans you rob yourself of being you when you try to do what others are meant to do romans don t pretend to be what you don t intend to be matthew meeting god in our trials is better than getting out of them psalm if sinners are to escape god s judgement god s people must point the way matthew it s not a sin to get angry when you get angry at sin john we prepare for the darkness by learning to pray in the light samuel christianity is not a way of doing certain things but a certain way of doing all things ephesians better to know the truth and beware than to believe a lie and not care jeremiah a true servant does not live to himself for himself or by himself genesis those who do the most earthly good are those who are heavely mined philippians a good marriage requires a determination to be married for good genesis if you re looking for something to give your life to look to the one who gave his life for you corinthians when we have nothing left but god we discover that god is enough psalm god is with us inthe darkness as surely as he is with us in the light peter some people spend most of their life at the complaint counter thessalonians of all creation only man can say yes or no to god genesis the most rewarding end in life is to know the life that never ends ecclesiates one of the marks of a well fed soul is a well read bible joshua because god gives us all we need we should give to those in need proverbs it s never too early to receive christ but at any moment it could be too late luke god s grace keeps pace with whatever we face corinthians coming together is a beginning keeping together is progress working together is success corinthians when we give god our burdens he gives us a song psalm do the thing you fear and the death of fear is certain emerson corinthians the best way to conquer an enemy is by the strategy of love matthew loneliness is being unaware of the one who is with us everywhere when the christian stays his mind on christ he develops a wonderful calmplex
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity in article may athos rutgers edu gchin ssf eng sun com writes let me say that the life death and resurrection of jesus christ is central to christianity if you personally believe that jesus christ died for you you are a part of the christian body of believers we are all still human we don t know it all but homosexual or heterosexual we all strive to follow jesus the world is dying and needs to hear about jesus christ are you working together with other christians to spread the gospel let me salute gary chin for speaking the gospel which is our source of life any who will follow his example and accept the priorities christ commands of us that the weightier matters of the law are justice and mercy and good faith is my brother or sister in christ and i will attend to such a person with humility and charity we may not in the end agree siblings often don t but we can at least talk michael l siemon i say you are gods sons of the mls panix com most high all of you nevertheless or you shall die like men and fall mls ulysses att com like any prince psalm
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality i am going to stop reading the homosexuality posts at least for a while because of the repeated seemingly personal attacks on me via post e mail mainly e mail if anyone has a specific comment suggestion and or note that does not contain any name calling etc that they would like for me to read send it to me via e mail i would like a copy of file mentioned by the moderator ragarding the exergetical issue of it i attempted to get it via ftp but was unable in christ s love bryan
soc.religion.christian	the word perfect exe file needed a friend of mine managed to get a copy of a computerised greek and hebrew lexicon called the word perfect that is not the word processing package wordperfect however some one wiped out the exe file and she has not been able to restore it there are no distributors of the package in south africa i would appreciate it if some one could email me the file or at least tell me where i could get it from my email address is fortmann superbowl und ac za or fortmann shrike und ac za many thanks in him paul fortmann
soc.religion.christian	re mormon temples dhammers pacific david hammerslag writes this paragraph brought to mind a question how do you mormons reconcile the idea of eternal marriage with christ s statement that in the ressurection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage luke chapt here is the short answer because only certain marriages are recorded in heaven now for the long answer in doctrine and covenants section the chapter discussing eternal marriage and yes plural marriage the distinction between sealings under the priesthood and other marriages is revealed when the children of this world marry or are given in marriage when they receive the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage luke jesus was simply teaching that marriages until death do you part are not in force after death however the doctrine and covenants continues describing eternal marriage d c and again verily i say unto you if a man marry a wife by my word which is my law and by the new and everlasting covenant and it is sealed unto them by the holy spirit of promise by him who is anointed this power and the keys of this priesthood shortened for brevity ai and shall be of full force when they are out of the world and they shall pass by the angels and the gods which are set there to their exhaltation and glory in all things as hath been sealed upon their heads which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever the lord told peter whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven matt do you doubt that peter was given the power to perform sealings peter thought so because he taught that husbands and wives were heirs together of the grace of life peter in order to obtain the highest degree of celestial glory a man must enter into this order of the priesthood d c when a man and wife are sealed they truly become one flesh because their eternal increase destinies are enjoined completely our father has an eternal companion and maybe more because of the plural marriage conditions of the law who participated in our creation and is equally concerned with our progress here there is no scriptural basis for this doctrine if fact the only mention of our mother is in one verse of a hymn written early in the history of the church o my father i had learned to call thee father through thy spirit from on high but until the key of knowledge was restored i knew not why in the heav ns are parents single no the thought makes reason stare truth is reason truth eternal tells me i ve a mother there why don t we hear more about our mother because our father presides under priesthood authority which is not a calling for her because we don t all necessarily have the same mother it would be confusing for worship because our father wishes to withhold her name and titles because of how some people degrade sacred things a idler
soc.religion.christian	james and sirach on thursday may dave davis writes i m leaning sirach is more directly referenced by james than job or ruth is in any nt verse i ve seen it would help if you mentioned chapter and verse from sirach and from james job he taketh the wise in their craftiness seems to be quoted in corinthians james you have heard of the patience of job while not a quote implies that james and his listeners are familiar with a story of a man named job who exhibited exemplary patience it is possible that the story they know is not that found in the hebrew bible but rather another similar and related story one has the same problem with direct quotes again matthew boaz begat obed of ruth tells us that matthew knew a story about a woman named ruth who married a man called boaz and became the ancestor of david since ruth is not mentioned in the ot outside the book of ruth it seems likely that matthew was familiar with the book and respected it and thought ruth important enough to be one of the few women mentioned in the genealogy references like this do not prove that the nt writer considered his ot source inspired or inerrant or canonical but neither do direct quotes yours james kiefer
soc.religion.christian	certainty of canonizations on friday may marty helgesen wrote public revelation which is the basis of catholic doctrine ended with the death of st john the last apostle nothing new can be added every so often the pope declares that some departed christian is now in heaven and may be invoked in the public rites of the church it is my understanding that roman catholics believe that such declarations by the pope are infallible i see three possibilities the church has received a public revelation since the death of for example joan of arc the church was given a list before the death of st john which had joan s name on it there is no public revelation about joan and roman catholics are free to doubt that she died in a state of grace or even that she is a historical character yours james kiefer
soc.religion.christian	paul s thorn in the side joe moore writes paul repeatedly talks about the thorn in his side some think it refers to lust others pride but who knows whatever the thorn was apparently it was not compatible with christianity yet does that make his epistles any less paul mentions his thorn skolops actually a sharp stake in corinthians and to keep me from being too elated by the abundance of revelations a thorn was given me in the flesh a messenger of satan to harass me to keep me from being too elated three times i besought the lord about this that it should leave me but he said to me my grace is sufficient for you for my power is made perfectr in weakness he does not explain what it was but it need not have been a moral problem one guess is that paul had a disorder of the eyes he ordinarily dictated his letters and then added a personal note and his signature at the end of the letter to the galatians he says see i am writing in large letters with my own hand or else see what a long letter i have written with my own hand if the former translation is adopted it seems that paul could not write in the small script of a practiced writer but needed to make his letters larger and this suggests eye problems again he says to the galatians you know that it was because of a bodily ailment that i preached the gospel to you at first and although my condition was a trial to you you did not scorn or despise me but received me as an angel of god for i bear you witness that if possible you would have plucked out your eyes and given them to me perhaps this last line means simply you would have done anything for me not withholding your most precious possessions your eyes but in that case we would expect some wording like if i had needed them if it were possible sounds as though the bodily ailment was connected with his eyes william barclay in his volume on acts makes a more specific suggestion before paul preached in the highlands of galatia he had been preaching in the coastal areas of asia minor if he had had a malarial attack while there a doctor would have advised him to leave the low country and head for the hills malaria might well have given him both severe headaches and blurred vision yours james kiefer
soc.religion.christian	words or less everywhere we see and hear about christianity due to its evangalistic nature witnessing spreading the gospel etc but what i want to know is why should i or anyone else become a christian in twenty five words or less zeros and ones will take us there peace plastic we ve had enough discussions about evidence recently that it would probably be best to respond via email clh
soc.religion.christian	re mormon beliefs about children born out of wedlock in article may geneva rutgers edu aaronc athena mit edu aaron bryce cardenas writes bruce webster writes indeed lds doctrine goes one step further and in some cases holds parents responsible for their children s sins if they have failed to bring them up properly cf d c hi bruce how do you reconcile this practice with ezekiel ezekiel the soul who sins is the one who will die the son will not share the guilt of the father nor will the father share the guilt of the son the righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him actually in d c the parents are being held accountable for their own sins specifically they are accountable for their failure to teach their children properly if i fail to teach my children that stealing is wrong then i am responsible for their theft if they later indulge in such behavior this is very similar to the instructions ezekiel was given in eze if ezekiel failed to do his duty and warn the wicked not only would the wicked die in his sins but the lord would hold ezekiel responsible similarly parents are responsible to teach their children right from wrong i suspect most christians and jews etc would agree that parents have this responsibility
soc.religion.christian	daily verse let the word of christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom and as you sing psalms hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to god colossians a reminder these verses are from the new international version as with any translation faithfulness to the original hebrew and greek may vary from time to time if a verse sounds a little off occasionally compare it with another translation or with the original texts if you are able to do so god bless you chuck petch
soc.religion.christian	re dreams and out of body incidents ever since i was a kid and learned to tell when i was in a dream i have used my dreams for fantasies or working out problems in my dreams i have done everything from yell at my mom to machine gunning zombies not to mention myriad sexual fantasies i have deliberately done things that i would never do in real life i understand the need to control ones thoughts but i always felt that dreams were format free no morals no ethics no physical laws though sometimes i would have to wake myself up to go to the bathroom is this an incorrect attitude rather than weakening my inhibitions i could argue that i got certain things out of my system by experiencing them in dreams by analyzing a dream i can determine if i have a problem with a certain situation i e in a dream something will be exagerated that i can then contemplate and see if it really bothers me or not i can t believe that other people don t do the same it seems silly to attach moral significance to dreams i think that this is entirely different from out of body experiences which i have never had contradictions welcome chris mussack
soc.religion.christian	reason and homophobia this has troubled me for a long time and needs to be dealt with from a long article available through an individual on this newsgroup about scripture being against homosexuality when we are less homophobic we will see that what we know as gay and lesbian people engaging in loving voluntary erotic relations with each other aren t even mentioned in the bible tk this frightens me not in the homophobic sense but intellectually especially because it was written by someone from a homosexual church so if my interpretation is different than theirs i am homophobic this can t be right disagreement in interpretation of the bible and or rejection of homosexual acts is not tantamount of homophobia ted kalivoda tedr athena cs uga edu university of georgia athens institute of higher ed
soc.religion.christian	re more on peter in article may geneva rutgers edu jek cu nih gov writes in one sense no statement by another is subject to my private interpretation if reliable historians tell me that the athenians lost the pelopennesian war i cannot simply interpret this away because i wanted the athenians to win facts are facts and do not go away because i want them to be otherwise in another sense every statement is subject to private interpretation in that i have to depend on my brains and expereience to decide what it means and whether it is sufficiently well attested to merit my assent even if the statement occurs in an inspired writing i still have to decide using my own best judgement whether it is in fact inspired this is not arrogance it is just an inescapable fact yes there are these two senses of interpretation and certainly our decision to accept scripture as inspired ultimately rests on our own private opinion however when reading scripture we have to remember that the scriptures were given by god for our instruction and that the interpretation that matters is the one god intended for example if i decide that the fact that john the baptist is elijah teaches the doctrine of reincarnation i am wrong because that is not the intended interpretation the prophets didn t make up this teaching it came from god and we must accept it as such this necessarily means that our private interpretations must take a back seat to the meaning god intended to convey certainly we must rely on our best efforts to determine what this meaning is but this very fact should make us recognize that our private interpretations cannot be automatically accepted as the infallible interpretation of god we need to test the spirits to see if they are from god when the holy spirit speaks he says the same thing to all he won t tell me that a passage means one thing and tell you it means another if the two of us come to conflicting conclusions we can t both be completely right we know our interpretations are reliable only when the church as a whole agrees on what scripture means this is how we know the doctrines of the trinity the dual nature of christ etc infallibly these matters are not up for private interpretation this is the reason peter goes on to talk about the deceptiveness of the false teachers they preferred their own private interpretation to the god given teaching of the apostles it is through such private interpretation that the traditions of men so soundly denounced in scripture are started tony
soc.religion.christian	homosexuality is immoral non religious argument this was crossposted to a zillion groups i don t intend to carry an entire discussion crossposted from alt sex particularly one whose motivation seems to be having a fun argument however i thought readers might be interested to know about the discussion there clh i intend to endeavor to make the argument that homosexuality is an immoral practice or lifestyle or whatever you call it i intend to show that there is a basis for a rational declaration of this statement i intend to also show that such a declaration can be made without there being a religious justification for morality in fact to show that such a standard can be made if one is an atheist anyone who wants to join in on the fun in taking the other side i e that they can make the claim that homosexuality is not immoral or that collaterally it is a morally valid practice is free to do so i think there are a lot of people who don t believe one can have a rational based morality without having a religion attached to it this should be fun to try and figure this out and i want to try and expose no pun intended my ideas and see other people s and see where their ideas are standing as i m not sure what groups would be interested in this discussion i will be posting an announcement of it to several and if someone thinks of appropriate groups let me know if someone on here doesn t receive alt sex let me know and i ll make an exception to my usual policy and set up a mailing list to automatically distribute it in digest format to anyone who wants to receive it as i ll use that as the main forum for this by exception to usual policy is that i normally charge for this but for the duration the service will be available at no charge to anyone who has an address reachable on internet or bitnet i decided to start this dialog when i realized there was a much larger audience on usenet internet than on the smaller bbs networks to give the other side time to work up to a screaming anger this will begin on monday may to give people who want to make the response time to identify themselves anonymous postings are acceptable since some people may not wish to identify themselves also if someone else wants to get in on my side they are free to do so this should be much more interesting than abortion debates
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity in article may geneva rutgers edu revdak netcom com d andrew kille writes of course the whole issue is one of discernment it may be that satan is trying to convince us that we know more than god or it may be that god is trying as god did with peter to teach us something we don t know that god shows no partiality but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him acts revdak netcom com fine but one of the points of this entire discussion is that we conservative reformed christians this could start an argument but isn t this idea that homosexuality is ok fairly new this century is there any support for this being a viable viewpoint before this century i don t know don t believe that homosexuality is acceptable to him so your scripture quotation doesn t work for us jeff adams
soc.religion.christian	re christianity and repeated lives in article may athos rutgers edu u athmail cause way qub ac uk writes single angle brackets jesus is talking with the apostles and they ask him why the pharisees say that before the messiah can come elijah must first come jesus replies that elijah has come but they did not recognize him it then says that the apostles perceived that he was referi ng to john the baptist this seems to me to clearly imply reincarnation this was a popular belief in the judaism of jesus time that elijah would return again as he had been taken in to heaven in a chariot and did not actually die however jesus was referring to john the baptist not in the sense that elijah was reincarnated as john remember elijah didn t die but that john was a similar prophet to elijah there is no question of similarity in jesus indication about john the passage in matthew is very direct where luke reports the angel gabriel prophesying that john will go before christ in the power and spirit of elias in matthew jesus himself says of john and if you care to accept it he himself is elijah who was to come it is interesting that jesus prepended the words if you care to accept it as if to say that the implications of this truth namely of rein carnation i will not force on you but for those who can accept it here it is a jewish poster to other newsgroups on jewish esotericism and other topics has outlined the esoteric cabbalistic jewish teaching of of reincarnation and karma a teaching that is little known among jews today but which is apparently widespread enough in israel that hannah hurnard hinds feet on high places was told about it by a rabbi she was trying to convert back in the s as a missionary in palestine thus there may well have been a small number of jews who knew about this whereas the large number of people did not the statement of jesus about john the greatest human personality in the new testament is guarded but nevertheless quite direct again the subject of reincarnation one way or another is not a subject of the new testament nor is the fate in general of the human being between death and the last judgement but there are occasional indications that point to it as for the popular belief that elijah would come again it was more than a popular belief as jesus confirms it in more than one place and he never corrected those who were expecting elijah for example those who thought that jesus himself be he gerry palo compuserve com
soc.religion.christian	re jacob and esau reincarnation in article may athos rutgers edu jek cu nih gov writes gerry palo wrote that there is nothing in christianity that excludes the theory of a succession of lives i wrote that the apostle paul in romans speaks of god as choosing jacob over esau and adds that this is not as a result of anything that either child had done since they had not been born yet clearly paul does not believe that they had had previous lives nor does he suppose that his readers will believe it for if they had had previous lives it would not make sense to say neither of them has done anything good or bad as yet since they are not yet born paul s statement only asserts that that particular choice was not a matter of karmic fulfillment of the past just as the fate of the man born blind john was not there is no question here of the simplistic idea of karma as a machine that is the sole determiner of one s destiny even the eastern traditions or many of them do not say that as one knowledgeable poster pointed out and if in fact that paul did not know about or believe in reincarnation does not say anything one way or another about it even john the baptist who jesus says emphatically is elijah matt does not appear to have been aware of it at least at the point at which he was asked but it is interesting that his threefold denial to the question whether he is the christ the prophet i e isaiah or elijah is emphatic in the first case and very weak in the third i would like to add once again that while it is important to discuss the different passages that may point directly to the teaching of repeated earth lives one way or another what i really see as important in our time is that the subject be revisited in terms of the larger view of christianity and christian doctrine for the most part those who do accept it either reject the central ideas of christianity or if they are christians hold their conviction as a kind of separate treasure i believe that christianity has important new understanding to bring to bear on it and vice versa much that is central to christianity takes on entirely new dimensions of meaning in light of repeated earth lives it has a direct bearing on many of the issues frequently discussed in this newsgroup in particular i have said openly that i have developed my views of repeated earth lives largely from the work of rudolf steiner not that i hold him as an authority but the whole picture of christianity becomes clearer in light of these ideas steiner indicated that the old consciousness of reincar nation necessarily had to fade away that it could be renewed in later times after a time of development of the christ idea through the first two millenia after christ s deed on golgotha in our own time it becomes important that having received the basic gospel of salvation our understanding of life and of the human being can now grow to embrace the significance of this idea for the discussions in this newsgroup i have tried to focus on that which can be related as directly as possible to scripture and to fundamental christian teaching and tradition gerry palo compuserve com
soc.religion.christian	tongues read me persons interested in the tongues question are are invited to peruse an essay of mine obtainable by sending the message get tongues notrans to listserv asuacad bitnet or to listserv asuvm inre asu edu yours james kiefer
soc.religion.christian	re the doctrine of original sin creps lateran ucs indiana edu stephen a creps writes to summarize you accused the original poster of saying if something is not forbidden by the bible then that proves it is ok i e if something cannot be disproven it is true he rather seemed to be you are absolutely right after reading it over again i realized that i misunderstood what he said my apologies as for the question about slavery i have to disagree slavery in those times was the same as slavery in the us some may have been indentured servants but not all i would also expect paul to do a little more than just hint about a particular slave
soc.religion.christian	re hyslop and the two babylons in article may geneva rutgers edu mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes seeing as how the two babylons has been brought up again it is time for me to respond once again and say that this book is junk it is nothing more that an anti catholic tract of the sort published ever since the there were protestants its scholarship is phony and its assertions spurious i have not seen this book though i have had several people quote it in support of some tendentious assertions they were making so i have become curious about it i don t want to malign this hislop fellow whoever he may be as i have only heard the arguments at second hand but both of the arguments seemed to turn on false etymology that seemed to be derived from hislop i would be interested in knowing more about these things the first one claimed that the word church was derived from the greek cyclos and that it was therefore related to the worship of circe i don t know if hislop is the source of this assertion but it does seem to be based on false etymology the second claimed an etymological relationship between ishtar and easter which seemed to be even more fanciful and far fetched than some of the wilder notions of the british israelites regarding the latter as far as i have been able to find out easter is derived from the old english name for april eosturmonath the venerable bede mentioned that this was associated with a goddess called eostre but apart from that reference i have not been able to find out anything more about her it also seems that the term easter is only used by the english and those they evangelized the germans for example also use the term ostern but germany was evangelized by english missionaries so i would be interested in any evidence of easter being used for pascha by people who do not have any kind of connection with the ancient anglo saxons and their offshoots such evidence might support the claims of those who appear to derive the theory from hislop steve hayes department of missiology editorial department univ of south africa p o box pretoria south africa internet hayesstw risc unisa ac za fidonet steve hayes p f n z fidonet org faq missiology is the study of christian mission and is part of the faculty of theology at unisa
soc.religion.christian	quit smoking my girlfriend is a smoker she has been addicted to it for quite some time she has been tried a couple of times but then always get back to it her background is non christian but she s interested in christianity i m a christian and non smoker i would like to collect any personal stories from christians who managed to quit i hope that this will encourage her to keep on trying if anybody ever had a similar problem or knows a good book on it pls reply by email i appreciate any kinds of helps thanks a lot simon darjadi wibowo telp dept of ee nat l univ of s pore fax singapore internet eledw nuscc nus sg
soc.religion.christian	re boston c of c aside to the moderator in article may geneva rutgers edu rick granberry pts mot com rick granberry writes see below i won t quote any of it but there are several errors in the article not things that are just differences of opinion but the writer just plain has his facts confused for example kip mckean was asked to come to the lexington church by the leaders there he brought no team he actually had been in charleston il up to that point he had many friends even leaders in gainesville telling him not to go because people in the northeast weren t open and he d be wasting his time and talents really this fact was a kind of inside joke at one point after the church in boston took off so well not open indeed i could take it on point by point but i am not in a position to know one way or the other about some things in the article i just wanted to point out that it contains misinformation mark mark wuest my opinions not at t s mdw violin hr att com sun mailtool ok mdw trumpet hr att com next mail
soc.religion.christian	re homosexual issues in christianity michael michael siemon mls panix com writes michael the kind of interpretation i see as incredibly perverse is michael that applied to the story of sodom as if it were a blanket michael equation of homosexual behavior and rape since christians michael citing the bible in such a context should be presumed to have michael at least read the story it amounts to slander a charge michael that homosexuality rape to use that against us and michael it is just michael as wrong though slightly less incendiary so it s a michael secondary argument from the phobic contingent to equate michael homosexuality with such behavior as to equate it with the michael rape of god s messengers let s review the sodom and gomorrah story briefly it states clearly that the visitors were angels but all the men from every part of the city of sodom both young and old surrounded the house they called to lot where are the men who came to you tonight bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them for the rest of the story the angels are referred to by the men of sodom and by lot as men furthermore we know from gen that the lord had already found sodom guilty of grievous sin before the angels visited the city it is clear that the grievous sin of sodom and gomorrah involved homosexual sex it appears that the men had become so inflamed in their lust that they had group orgies in the public square which simply indicates the extremity of their depravity it does not show that lesser degrees of homosexuality are not sinful as michael would have us believe ultimately our understanding of god s will for sexuality comes from the creation story not solely on the story of sodom and gomorrah he created us male and female and instituted marriage as a relationship between one male and one female therefore a man will leave his father and mother and be united with his wife and they will become one flesh this marriage relationship is the only sexual relationship which god blesses and sanctions he regulates and protects the marriage of man and woman and even uses it as a picture of the relationship between himself and his church but we find not one word of blessing or regulation for a sexual relationship between two men or between two women everything else that we find in the bible about sexuality derives from or expresses god s will in instituting and blessing marriage thus the levitical code which was given only to the jews forbade incest homosexuality bestiality the ten commandments forbade adultery and the coveting of our neighbor s wife other commandments forbade rape the men of sodom and gomorrah were regarded as sexually immoral and perverse jude because they abandoned and or polluted the marriage relationship thus also paul regarded homosexuality as unnatural romans not because this was simply paul s opinion but because it was contrary to god s purpose in creating us male and female michael christians no doubt very sincere ones keep showing up here michael and in every corner of usenet and the world and all they michael ever do is spout these same old verses which they obviously michael have never thought about maybe never even read in total michael ignorance of the issues raised slandering us with the vilest michael charges of child abuse or whatever their perfervid minds can michael manage to conjure up tossing out red herrings with they michael suppose great emotional force to cause readers to dismiss michael our witness without even taking the trouble to find out what michael it is really have you no better response to slander than more slander david h wagner the day is surely drawing near a confessional lutheran when god s son the annointed shall with great majesty appear as judge of all appointed all mirth and laughter then shall cease when flames on flames will still increase as scripture truly teacheth es ist gewisslich an der zeit v bartholomaeus ringwaldt
soc.religion.christian	re hyslop and the two babylons in article may geneva rutgers edu mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes seeing as how the two babylons has been brought up again its scholarship is phony and its assertions spurious c wingate maybe you should dig a little further charles hislop s scholarship was accepted by the bristish oriental institute which at the time was the premere institute for oriental studies as i ve stated over and over i ve checked out about of his references most are now out of print or in private libraries and the likes of wilkerson and layard hold their own merit they too came to the same conclusions and if you will trouble yourself you will find that their knowledge of the mysteries have yet to be surpassed both were highly honored by the british oriental museum wilkerson is known as one of the leading archeologist in the history of egyptiology and layard is still being refered two after yrs of archeology in the mesopotamian regions he was recently refered to in a time article on babylonian archeology phony scholarship is when you review their references and find that they have misquoted or misrepresented the conclusions hislop did not his conclusions do not tickle the ears that much is self evident but to assert that his conclusions are spurious is without merit he gave references to all his conclusions and as i have stated for the last years i have used his conclusions in debates at rc seminaries and brotherhoods not to mention the individual priests and bishops that i have talked to one on one no counter to hislops scholarship was made the only rebuttals were against his conclusions because they do totally undermined the claims of the rcc he was showing that the intitution of the rcc was based on the mysteries which others have shown even to this day in various articles and topics the tongues movement in corinth was a direct result of the mysteries entering into the church if it was so in corinth why could they not have an influence in rome the city of seven hills also you do not have to listen to his conclusions you can draw your own conclusions by looking at the customs artifacts the cerimonial dress the docrine of purgatory etc from the vantage of the mysteries you don t even have to be a believer to see the parallels just one example the mitre where did it come from why is it shaped the way it is what are the two tails that hang down the back represent was this an ancient head dress from an earlier culture and why was it in rome at the time of the beginnings of the church of the state of rome does it have pagan history behind it and if so why did the rcc chose regardless any lay person of middle eastern religion can answer these questions even the scriptures themselves refer to it all hislop did was collect the information from all the various sources and put them in one binding there is no lack of scholorship in that please tell me why you discredit this man by your accusation yet present no evidence supporting it rex
soc.religion.christian	re athiests and hell in article may geneva rutgers edu rexlex fnal fnal gov writes in article may athos rutgers edu ptrei bistromath mitre org peter trei writes in article may athos rutgers edu rexlex fnal fnal gov writes much deleted point today might be the masons just a note that they too worshipped osiris in egypt much deleted it bugs me when i see this kind of nonsense first there is no reasonable evidence linking masonry to ancient egypt or even that it existed prior to the late th century and there s nothing definitive before the th i m going to cut rex s ramblings down a bit you must not be past your th level you should read wilkinson s egyptians and how he shows this egyptian religion paralleling his own british masonry there is a man here at this laboratory who is a degree black mason i ve talked with him there is the public side with motorcyle mania and childrens hospitals and then there is the priviate side that only the highest degree mason every learns of rex there are literally hundreds of thousands of nd degree masons in this country and thousands of rds if nasty stuff was really going on don t you think you d have more than a couple of disgruntled members exposing it heck if what you say is true then rev norman vincent peale is an osiris worshiper long quote from someone named hislop source not given deleted i m attempting to extract from it the relevent points osiris is actually nimrod a babylonian deity it is admitted that the secret system of free masonry was originally founded on the mysteries of the egyptian isis the goddess mother or wife of osiris the babylonian nimrod and osiris are both connected with the building trade ie with masonry nimrod as the son of cush was a negro isn t this refering to a biblical nimrod rather than the babylonian god there was a tradition in egypt recorded by plutarch that osiris was black there is a long tradition in masonry of claiming ancient lineage for the order on the flimsiest of grounds this dates right back to the constitutions of which cite adam as the first mason i ve seen other claims which place masonry among the romans greeks and egyptians and atlanteans i even have a book which claims to prove that stonehenge was originally a masonic temple claims prove nothing where s the beef rex claims ex mason showed him leopard skin he wore in lodge any representation of osiris usually show the wearing of some leopard i d have to check this the tomb paintings i remember don t show this it is interesting that the druids of britian also show or should i say hide this representation they however worshipped the spotted cow can you give ancient citations for this the druids were suppressed over years ago what s your point this whole leopard skin business sounds bizarre i have not yet gone through the scottish rite which contains all of those higher degrees anti masons get so excited about and which was invented in the s but i know enough people who have and who are good christians that i reject your claim i ll stand by my statements masonry is of the mystery religions that all find their source in babylon the great harlot sorry peter i do not mean to be a cold slap to the face but there is to much not so much a slap in the face as a weary feeling of deja vu i m going through a very similar argument over on soc culture african american evidence to the contrary that masonry doesn t find its origins in egypt of the masons i have personally talked to all refered to egypt as their origin why don t you try reading some serious books on masonic history such as hamill s the craft why are you now separating yourself from this which not many years ago was freely admitted because we got honest if you can come up with actual evidence that masonry existed prior to i d be very impressed actually anything earlier than would be pretty good rex peter trei ptrei mitre org disclaimer i do not speak for my employer
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity in article may geneva rutgers edu noye midway uchicago edu writes i believe that the one important thing that those who wrote the old and new testament passages cited above did not know was that there is scientific evidence to support that homosexuality is at least partly inherent rather than completely learned note that scientific evidence in this area does not prove any conclusions there has been evidence to suggest that a certain part of homosexual s brains are different from heterosexuals but that proves very little also notice that the apostles did not have with them the scientific evidence linking certain genes with alcoholism or stealing with certain genetic problems even if they did have scientific evidence i doubt it would have stopped them from communicating the teaching from the holy spirit that these things are sinful this reminds me of a conversation with a professor of mine he said something very true christianity teaches that we should not give in to our every inclination most people do give in to their leanings in christianity we have the concept of struggling with the flesh and bringing it into submission one person may have a problem with his temper and having a murderous heart another may have a problem with homosexuality another may be inclined to greed but god offers us the opportunity to be more than conquerers sources where you can find this information there is homosexual behavior recorded among monkeys and other animals which is in itself suggestive that it is inherent rather than learned or at least that the word unnatural shouldn t really apply the preying mantis bites the head off of her mate after she mates with him is it natural for a woman to do the same thing to her husband the bible is concerned with human morality and only touches on animal morality as it relates to humans link hudson
soc.religion.christian	should teenagers pick a church parents don t attend q should teenagers have the freedom to choose what church they go to my friends teenage kids do not like to go to church if left up to them they would sleep but that s not an option they complain that they have no friends that go there yet don t attempt to make friends they mention not respecting their sunday school teacher and usually find a way to miss sunday school but do make it to the church service after their parents are thoroughly disgusted i might add a never ending battle it can just ruin your whole day if you let it has anyone had this problem and how did it get resolved f
soc.religion.christian	re homosexual issues in christianity in article may geneva rutgers edu mls panix com michael siemon writes i notice that the verse forbidding bestiality immediately follows the verse prohibiting what appears to be homosexual intercourse it is absolutely irrelevant and incomparable to the issues gay christians do raise which concern sexual activity within committed consensual human adult realtionships so that your bringing it up is no more relevant than the laws of kashrut if you cannot address the actual issues you are being bloody dishonest in trailing this red herring in front of the world no it is very relevant homosexual acts and acts of beastiality are topically aranged together in the law this is very important anyone who would want to say that this command against homosexuality deals with temple prostitution and i think you would agree that there is no proof for this if the law reveals the character of god and is holy just and good as is written in the new testament then those who consider we who are against commiting homosexuals acts to be biggots have to address this passage of scripture why must we only discuss scriptures that involve consensual human adult relationships isn t that bordering on sophistry the point we are making is that god did not ordain certain kinds of sex acts not everyone who brings up these scriptures is just trying to use and emotional argument that compares homosexuals to beastophiles and child molestors the issue we are dealing with is that some sex acts are ungodly i do not have problem with a loving nonlustful relationship with a member of the same sex i have them and we all do the issue at hand is the sinfulness having sex with members of the same sex or lusting after so other forbidden sex acts are a valid topic for conversation and the idea that these relationships may be emotional relationships between adult humans is red herring we all agree that it is okay for adults to have caring relationships with one another link hudson
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity in article may geneva rutgers edu revdak netcom com d andrew kille writes it was the manifestation of the spirit among the gentiles that convinced peter acts that his prejudice against them based on scripture i might add was not in accordance with god s intentions i would just like to point out that the particular command not to eat or fellowship with gentiles is not found in the old testament this was part of the hedge built around the law it was a part of peter s tradition and not the scripture link hudson
soc.religion.christian	goedel s ontological proof fred gilham asks may whether it is true that kurt goedel wrote a version of the ontological argument for the existence of god yes he did he did not publish it but it will be published by the oxford university press in german and with english translation in volume due to appear this fall of his collected works meanwhile you can find a summary or perhaps the whole thing in an article by jordan howard sobel called goedel s ontological proof in the book on being and saying edited by judith jarvis thompson sp published by the mit press in professor c anthony anderson of the philosophy department of the university of minnesota has written an article some emendations of goedel s ontological proof which appeared in the magazine faith and philosophy v it discusses some objections that various critics have raised against goedel s proof and offers a revised version of the proof that is not vulnerable to these objections yours james kiefer
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity in may geneva rutgers edu djohnson cs ucsd edu darin johnson writes ok what s more important to gay christians sex or christianity i m afraid i see that question as very tendentious try rephrasing it what s more important to christians love of god or love of other human beings to which of course the only conceivable answer is that the one is like the other i am deeply suspicious of any flavor of christianity which would elevate one clause of the great commandment to a priority over the other such as to claim a conflict true we are told to let the dead bury the dead to hate family rather than let it keep us from following christ but the dichotomy here is not one between love of our fellows and love of god but of allowing social constructs to blind us to the presense of god it is particularly satanic to twist love of god in such a manner as to become an excuse to treat others as on a different level than the one who is so caught up in love of god the trouble comes in the relation of human love and human sex yes it has sometimes been the case that the church has taught that all sex was nasty evil sinful stuff but when man and wife leave their parental homes to become helpmates living in one flesh it is the sex that is the vehicle of becoming one flesh if you doubt me read st paul on what is wrong with frequenting prostitutes less provocatively what i mean is just this sexual bonding is a deeply founded aspect of our social interaction and in particular is the foundation of the institution of marriage so that unlike with many mammals human males remain with and foster the children they beget and support their children s mothers this is the schema behind genesis and behind jesus citation of that passage i observe by the way that not all human males in fact do as i have just described but another thing that characterizes human societies is our raising of non begotten children not only orphans and adoptees and the like but products of the quite common infidelities of humans to their spouses we are in this not unique in the animal world but the full extent of social consequences and implications is most intricate for us yes of course it sometimes goes wrong like all else we do it is infected with sin and you find married couples where there is no bond and people so deliriously addicted to the initial stages of sexual bond formation the infatuation falling in love phase that they break any forming bond in order to keep stepping over the threshold of the deep unity god has prepared for us and stepping back out again right away satan may indeed use sex as a very handy tool to corrupt human love but in the edenic creation that is not its nature and with god s grace under the power of christ to make all things new it need not be a problem for christians though we must be vigilant even in christ as the devil is watchful prowling around like a roaring lion seeking someone to devour so returning to the original question what is more important to straight christians sex or christianity paul clearly tended to think that sex was at best a distraction from christianity though to be charitable to him his context was in expectation of immediate parousia so that the hard tasks of a married union the lifelong building and adaptation to each other seemed somehow to undercut the proper preparation for an immediate eschaton since we do not know the hour of return we should act both with instant readiness for that and with a commitiment to our mates that proposes a long lifetime together and telling people not to bond in such a perspective strikes me as crippling us in the second clause of the the commandment to love i would claim that only a very few saints have the capacity to deeply love without sexual tinges or complication mind you their fellow human beings unless they have had a deeply spiritual life in married union growing together as one flesh and that means in the type case with a persistent and continued sexual relationship we are human and little good comes of trying to mortify the flesh to the point of pretending to be otherwise pretending not to be sexual beings christianity i would hope would they be willing to forgo sex completely in order to avoid being a stumbling block to others it depends entirely on context if that context is major hypocrisy on the part of those who find us stumbling blocks i am much less of a mind to efface myself so that they can pontificate about my sins there are some people for whom a life of celibacy is a spritual gift and maybe even a victory against a to them troubling sexual urge that seems to them to lead only to sin nothing i say should ever be read as demeaning such a gift nor the even rarer gift of love for all our conspecifics and indeed for all god s creation that can develop to the full without the tutoring of a spousal helpmate marriage founded in sex but there is a difference between spiritual gifts and penance telling people that they have to have a particular gift or else what is fraught with manipulation and disregard of the differences of our spiritual endowments from god to one person is given the gift of speaking in toungues to another intepretation of toungues to yet another prophecy and to still another teaching the notion that some particular gift is required of all is one of the earliest heresies michael l siemon i say you are gods sons of the mls panix com most high all of you nevertheless or you shall die like men and fall mls ulysses att com like any prince psalm
soc.religion.christian	re the doctrine of original sin creps lateran ucs indiana edu stephen a creps writes anyway your argument seems to be saying if i were god i certainly wouldn t do things that way therefore god doesn t do things that way i would never have the audacity to say such a thing my argument says only that i do not understand
soc.religion.christian	re what was the immaculate conception ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy a graca writes consequently this verse indicates that she was without sin also as was observed at the very top of this post mary had to be free from sin in order to be the mother of jesus who was definitely without sin if the mother of jesus had to be without sin in order to give birth to god then why didn t mary s mother have to be without sin in order to give birth to the perfect vessel for jesus for that matter why didn t mary s grandmother have to be without sin either seems to me that with all the original sin flowing through each person the need for the last one mary to have none puts god in a box where we say that he couldn t have incarnated himself through a normal human being my god is an all powerful god who can do whatever suits his purpose this includes creating a solar system and planet earth with the appearance of great age providing a path through the red sea for the children of israel that does not depend on the existence of a ridge of high ground and a wind blowing at the right speed and direction and the birth of himself from a normal sinful person without being tainted by her original sin i see far too much focus on the objects of religion and not nearly enough on the personal relationship that is available to all believers with the author of our existence without the necessity of having this relationship channeled through conduits to god in the form of mary apostles and a pope note that the idea of mary being conceived without original sin i e the immaculate conception is distinct from the idea of mary not having sinned during her lifetime which is a separate doctrine and i believe also held by the catholic church if mary was born without original sin and didn t sin during her lifetime how is she any different from jesus this means the world has had two perfect humans one died to take away the sins of the world the other gave birth to him i would certainly want to see some scriptural support for this before i would start praying to anyone other than god everything i have ever read from the bible teaches me that jesus was and is the only sinless lamb of god not his mother grandmother hope this is useful to you very useful in helping me understand some of the rc beliefs thank you bill irwin the westrheim group vancouver bc canada uunet twg bill voice your computer bill twg bc ca fax systems partner
soc.religion.christian	re eternal marriage hall vice ico tek com hal f lillywhite writes in article may athos rutgers edu dhammers pacific david hammerslag writes this paragraph brought to mind a question how do you mormons reconcile the idea of eternal marriage with christ s statement that in the ressurection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage luke chapt deletions i think what jesus is saying here and it is clearest in matthew s and mark s accounts is that marriages will not be performed in the resurrection this goes along with our belief that if a person is to marry at all it must be done on this earth deletions the problem with this view is that the topic under discussion in this passage is marriages that were performed on earth jesus words seem to me to indicate that he regards his response as the answer to their question about which earthly marriage would be valid after the resurrection this being the case the most straightforward interpretation in my opinion is that marriage does not exist in the next life because those who are raised are of a different nature than what we are now other wise why would jesus offer but are like the angels in heaven as a contrast to the idea of the resurrected marrying and being given in marriage we do not have angel like natures now but someday we shall and when we do our earthly marriages will be irrelevant or at least that s what i think jesus is saying about the post resurrection validity of marriages performed on earth your mileage may vary mark
soc.religion.christian	re on capital punishment in article may athos rutgers edu gt b prism gatech edu randal lee nicholas mandock writes safety to the degree that means other than the death penalty and military operations are sufficient to keep the peace then these non violent provisions are to be preferred because they are more in proportion and in keeping with the final goal of protection of peace and human dignity thanks for posting the exact wording which i had not seen previously the part i quote above seems to me to indicate disapproval of capital punishment it is to be used only when other means are not sufficient i would say this is a stronger restriction than saying that capital punishment is useable when justifiable i would certainly say there are cases where a crime justifies death perhaps this is the old testament interpretation but my reverence for life would say that i would oppose the actual infliction of the death penalty a new testament interpretation it is a matter for debate whether the death penalty works to keep the peace in a way that non violent provisions do not i don t believe it does and i would certainly observe that in the usa where you have the death penalty there is a far higher murder rate than here in the uk where we do not matthew huntbach
soc.religion.christian	re bernadette dates jek cu nih gov writes joe moore writes mary at that time appeared to a girl named bernadette at lourdes she referred to herself as the immaculate conception since a nine year old would have no way of knowing about the doctrine the apparition was deemed to be true and it sealed the case for the doctrine bernadette was years old when she had her visions in four years after the dogma had been officially proclaimed by the pope yours james kiefer i forgot exactly what her age was but i remember clearly that she was born in a family of poverty and she did not have any education whatsoever at the age of the apparitions she suffered from asthma at that age and she and her family were living in an abandoned prison cell of some sort she had to ask the lady several times in her apparitions about what her name was since her confessor priest asked her to do so for several instances the priest did not get an answer since bernadette did not receive any one time after several apparitions passed the lady finally said i am the immaculate conception so bernadette was so happy and repeated these words over and over in her mind so as not to forget it before she told the priest who was asking so when she told the priest the priest was shocked and asked bernadette do you know what you are talking about bernadette did not know what exactly it meant but she was just too happy to have the answer for the priest the priest continued with how did you remember this if you do not know bernadette answered honestly that she had to repeat it over and over in her mind while on her way to the priest the priest knew about the dogma being four years old then but bernadette did not know and yet she had the answer which the priest finally observed and took as proof of an authentic personal revelation of our lady to bernadette note this lady of lourdes shrine has a spring of water which our lady requested bernadette to dig up herself with her bare hands in front of pilgrims at the start little water flowed but after several years there is more water flowing marida spreading god s words through actions mother teresa
soc.religion.christian	angels on needles i recall reading somewhere that a number of bishops spent a great deal of time debating the topic of how many angels could fit on the tip of a needle does anybody have a reference to this thanks joe armstrong
soc.religion.christian	committing my life to god hi everyone i m trying to find my way to god but find it difficult as i can t hear god talking to me letting me know that he exists and is with me and that he knows me and i feel that i can t possibly get to know him until he does maybe he is talking to me but i just don t know or understand how to listen some christians tell me that in their opinion the only way to find god is to take a plunge and commit your life to him and you will discover this idea of diving into the totally unknown is a little bit frightening but i have a few questions how do you actually commit yourself if i just say ok god her you go i m committing my life to you i wouldn t really feel that he d listened at least i couldn t be sure that he had so how does one or how did you commit oneself to god in committing myself in this way what do i have to forfeit of my current life what can i no longer do i feel that i m as good as many christians and i try to uphold the idea of loving your neighbour i don t go round killing people stealing etc and i try not to get jealous of other people in any way and i would say that i keep to the standards of treating other people as well as many christians so what do i have to give up when committed what do i have to do what does it involve what if any burdens am i taking on so then what s the general difference before and after i assume that like on your birthday you don t suddenly feel a year older it won t suddenly change my life the day i commit myself so what happens how can i be sure that it is the right thing to do how can i find out what the it in the last sentence actually is thanks very much for all your help in answering these questions perhaps e mail would be a better way to reply but it s up to you ben benha castle ed ac uk janet benha uk ac ed castle year old at university in scotland
soc.religion.christian	re sj mercury s reference to fundamentalist christian parents in article may athos rutgers edu david bernard central sun com dave bernard writes from david bernard central sun com dave bernard subject re sj mercury s reference to fundamentalist christian parents date may gmt in article athos rutgers edu dan ingres com a rose arose writes raised in oakland and san lorenzo by strict fundamentalist christian parents mason was beaten as a child he once was were the san jose mercury news to come out with an article starting with raised in oakland by mexican parents mason was beaten my face would be red with anger over the injustice done to my mexican family members and although i m neither fundamentalist nor evangelical i have often noticed this trend in the media in short it is permissable to bash fundamentalists no need to substitue a nationality such as mexican try simply to substitute a different religion raised by muslim parents or raised by jewish parents the paper simply would not do this i have noticed that newspapers don t even know what a fundamentalist is at the least they confuse new evangelicals and fundamentalists in this news group the liberals don t even know what a fundamentalist is crying out legalist at anyone who believes and obeys god s word a fundamentalist would train their children in the way god proscribes not in the way that man proscribes this would not include life threatening beatings but would include corporal punishment to the liberals i cry out infidel at anyone who does not believe god s word signature follows your statutes are wonderful therefore i obey them psalm david l hanson any opinions expressed are my own as most people here know i believe fundamentalist is sufficiently ill defined that i advise using some more specific term i think many people use it to cover people who believe in inerrancy and a number of related concepts e g denial of evolution while the original fundamentals movement was somewhat more specific i would think most people who accept inerrancy would actually support the whole original agenda it included a list of key traditional doctrines e g the virgin birth the term is now being used by the press to describe aggressive conservative religions in general most typically those who are attempting to legislate religion legalism is yet another ill defined term however there is some reason for its use in this context in fact the common theological definition is the believe that salvation is through the law i hope no one here believes that our conservative contributors hold this view however there is a basic difference in approach over what we expect to get out of the bible the conservative approach expects to find specific behavioral rules generally the posters advocating this approach talk about the relevant passages from paul s letter as god s law the liberal approach expects to find general principles but it regards specific behavioral rules subject to change depending upon the culture and other things it s easy to see why a liberal would regard the conservative approach as legalism it s hard to know quite what other term to use the issue in this case is not inerrancy because no one is saying that paul made a factual error rather the question is whether his statements are to be taken as law calling the positive answer legalism seems obvious enough terminology i haven t seen any good alternative clh
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity in article may athos rutgers edu dps nasa kodak com dan schaertel writes in article athos rutgers edu carlson ab larc nasa gov ann carlson writes anyone who thinks being gay and christianity are not compatible should check out dignity integrity more light presbyterian churches affirmation mcc churches etc meet some gay christians find out who they are pray with them discuss scripture with them and only then form your opinion if you were to start your own religion this would be fine but there is no scriptural basis for your statement how about acts or i john which says to try the spirits to see if they be of god in fact it really gets to the heart of the problem you think you know more than scripture your faith is driven by feel goodism and not by the word of god how do you know when have you tried to learn anything about me dr ann b carlson a b carlson larc nasa gov o ms o nasa langley research center hampton va
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity we are all still human we don t know it all but homosexual or heterosexual we all strive to follow jesus the world is dying and needs to hear about jesus christ gaining entry into heaven cannot be done without first being cleansed by the blood of jesus sin cannot dwell in heaven it is against the natural laws of god being converted to christianity means being baptized by the holy spirit you cannot get to heaven by good works only because of the union with the holy spirit the man s behavior will change if there is true union he will not desire to be homosexual fornication and homosexuality will leave your life if you are truly baptized by the holy spirit it s not to say that we don t stumble now and then
soc.religion.christian	re what was the immaculate conception in article may athos rutgers edu seanna bnr ca seanna s m watson wrote i have quite a problem with the idea that mary never committed a sin was mary fully human if it is possible for god to miraculously make a person free of original sin and free of committing sin their whole life then what is the purpose of the incarnation of jesus why can t god just repeat the miracle done for mary to make all the rest of us sinless without the need for repentance and salvation and all that yes mary is fully human however that does not imply that she was just as subject to sin as we are catholic doctrine says that man s nature is good gen but is damaged by original sin rom in that case being undamaged by original sin mary is more fully human than any of the rest of us you ask why god cannot repeat the miracle of mary s preservation from original sin a better way to phrase it would be why did he not do it that way but you misunderstand how mary s salvation was obtained like ours the blessed virgin mary s salvation was obtained through the merits of the sacrifice of christ on the cross however as god is not bound by time which is his creation god is free to apply his sacrifice to anyone at any time even if that person lived before christ came to earth from our time bound perspective therefore christ s death and resurrection still served a necessary purpose and were necessary even for mary s salvation steve creps indiana university creps lateran ucs indiana edu
soc.religion.christian	re what was the immaculate conception in article may athos rutgers edu seanna bnr ca seanna s m watson writes in article may athos rutgers edu jhpb sarto budd lake nj us joseph h buehler writes referring to mary she was immaculately conceived and so never subject to original sin but also never committed a personal sin in her whole life this was possible because of the special degree of grace granted to her by god skipping i don t particularly object to the idea of the assumption or the perpetual virginity both of which i regard as catholic dogma about which i will agree to disagree with my catholic brothers and sisters in christ and i even believe in the virgin birth of jesus but this concept of mary s sinlessness seems to me to be at odds with the rest of christian doctrine as i understand it the catholic church has an entirely different view of mary than do most other christian churches those with parallel beliefs notwithstanding christ by most accounts is the only sinless person to ever live i too have trouble with a sinless mary concept just as for the related issue of the original sin only adam and eve will answer for that one my children do not answer for my sins certainly i only answer for mine larry autry silicon graphics st louis autry sgi com
soc.religion.christian	hail mary full of grace in article may athos rutgers edu seanna bnr ca seanna s m watson writes in article may athos rutgers edu jhpb sarto budd lake nj us joseph h buehler writes referring to mary she was immaculately conceived and so never subject to original sin but also never committed a personal sin in her whole life this was possible because of the special degree of grace granted to her by god i have quite a problem with the idea that mary never committed a sin was mary fully human if it is possible for god to miraculously make a person free of original sin and free of committing sin their whole life then what is the purpose of the incarnation of jesus why can t god just repeat the miracle done for mary to make all the rest of us sinless without the need for repentance and salvation and all that i don t particularly object to the idea of the assumption or the perpetual virginity both of which i regard as catholic dogma about which i will agree to disagree with my catholic brothers and sisters in christ and i even believe in the virgin birth of jesus but this concept of mary s sinlessness seems to me to be at odds with the rest of christian doctrine as i understand it if you don t agree with joseph s accurate statement of the catholic dogma of mary s perpetual sinlessness then how do you interpret luke and when the angel had come to her he said hail full of grace the lord is with thee blessed art thou among women and luke for behold henceforth all generations shall call me blessed i suppose that these verses might be interpreted to mean that mary was possessed of some limited quantity or quality of grace just as some of us are but it seems to me that full of grace means just what it says filled to the brim incapable of containing more the only other people we know of who have an abundance of grace are those souls existing in heaven now another catholic dogma based on the communion of saints as i explained in an earlier post full of grace to me means sinless and anyone who has ever sinned in his life cannot be without sin in the same sense as mary was sinless as a catholic i too find certain of the dogmas tough to embrace but that s where the catholic faith and prayer come into play i pray god to strengthen my will to accept the faith given the bride of christ which in turn usually strengthens my community faith in his church and as you probably know faith in christ s church is tantamount to faith in christ inasmuch as the church is christ s mystical body a catholic by nature must have two aspects to his faith in christ a personal faith in christ as his own personal redeemer and a community faith in the church as the body of christ randal lee nicholas mandock catechist gt b prism gatech edu you might want to check the greek full of grace translates a single word that simply means favored or perhaps more literally graced the full is a vestige of the specific translation you re using clh
soc.religion.christian	re deuterocanonicals esp sirach andrew continuing the discussion on the deuterocanonicals in article may geneva rutgers edu revdak netcom com d andrew kille writes poram ihlpb att com wrote lets talk about principles if we accept that god sets the standards for what ought to be included in scripture then we can ask is it authoritative authoritative is not a quality of the writing itself it is a statement by the community of faith whether it will accept the writing as normative arguably it is both since authority is a matter of both communicator and recepiant we can say that for example jesus is lord whether the world at large accepts the authority or not thus the bible can be considered for its authoritative content whether or not it is accepted this issue is at the heart of pilate s pragmatic question what is truth to jesus when our lord was brought before him jesus reply was to appeal to the authority of his father you also might like to consider the claimed authority represented by the statements thus says the lord in the bible which claim to put across the exact words of god you fall into the danger of relativism with your rejection of inherant authority and claim that it lies only in the community of faith does something become truth because it is accepted the main thrust of my argument is that there is a godward direction as well as a manward which is where the reference to rev came in is it prophetic how is prophecy to be defined if it is speaking forth of god s message much of the apocrypha must surely qualify if we narrowed it down to the predictive elements which will cut out some of the accepted ot books as well we nonetheless have criteria for determining the validity of the book jesus standards were that scripture cannot be broken can you name a single prophecy that fits the bill in the apocrapha ie definitely fulfilled after it has been written is it authentic again by what standard is authenticity a function of the authors the historical accuracy does it have a subjective ring of truth about it and does other evidence that has come to light contradict or confirm the authenticity archaeological other textual evidence for example is it dynamic what is this supposed to mean many of the apocryphal books are highly dynamic thought provoking faithful even exciting what this is getting at is the relationship between text and reader it is to do with the quality of writing which should have the ability to fire the mind affect our thought life and cause us to act in a certain way there is something of this in jesus quote man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the lord matt is it received collected read and used by whom of course the apocryphal books were received by some collected or else we would not have them read and used and they still are in the catholic and orthodox churches does the catholic church give the same authority to the apocrapha as to the accepted books certainly it is not as widely used as the ot and nt on these counts the apocrapha falls short of the glory of god this is demonstrably false think about what i have said above you may want to revise your conclusion in addition think about other sacred writings eg the koran the book of mormon and how and why you would categorise them using the above principles one word of caution you may find some reflected glory in some of these books in that the inspired quality may be derived from the bible remember that lucifer is quite capable of appearing as an angel of light and quoting scripture to quote unger s bible dictionary on the apocrapha they abound in historical and geographical inaccuracies and anachronisms so do other books of the bible what were you thinking of deletions how do you then view the words i warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book if anyone adds anything to them god will add to him the plagues described in this book and if anyone takes away from this book the prophecy god will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city rev surely this sets the standard and not just man made traditions these words clearly were meant to refer to the book of revelation alone not to the whole body of scripture revelation itself was accepted very late into the canon the church simply did not see it as having a primary role of any kind in identifying and limiting scripture we ve lost the point and the context here i am not arguing that the statement in rev can be applied indescriminately just that the whole acceptance rejection idea does not just follow on from man made traditions but there is i believe an act of god involved in the selection and criteria of what is classified as scripture and comes under the definition of tim revdak netcom com barney resson many shall run to and fro knowledge shall increase daniel
soc.religion.christian	re bernadette dates jek cu nih gov writes joe moore writes mary at that time appeared to a girl named bernadette at lourdes she referred to herself as the immaculate conception since a nine year old would have no way of knowing about the doctrine the apparition was deemed to be true and it sealed the case for the doctrine bernadette was years old when she had her visions in four years after the dogma had been officially proclaimed by the pope yours james kiefer i forgot exactly what her age was but i remember clearly that she was born in a family of poverty and she did not have any education whatsoever at the age of the apparitions she suffered from asthma at that age and she and her family were living in a prison cell of some sort she had to ask the lady several times in her apparitions about what her name was since her confessor priest asked her to do so for several instances the priest did not get an answer since bernadette did not receive any one time after several apparitions passed the lady finally said i am the immaculate conception so bernadette was so happy and repeated these words over and over in her mind so as not to forget it before she told the priest who was asking so when she told the priest the priest was shocked and asked bernadette do you know what you are talking about bernadette did not know what exactly it meant but she was just too happy to have the answer for the priest the priest continued with how did you remember this if you do not know bernadette answered honestly that she had to repeat it over and over in her mind while on her way to the priest the priest knew about the dogma being four years old then but bernadette did not know and yet she had the answer which the priest finally observed and took as proof of an authentic personal revelation of our lady to bernadette note this lady of lourdes shrine has a spring of water which our lady requested bernadette to dig up herself with her bare hands in front of pilgrims at the start little water flowed but after several years there is more water flowing marida spreading god s words through actions mother teresa marida maridai ecs comm mot com
soc.religion.christian	to everyone in dialog with tony rose please read this hello everyone i just wanted to let everyone know that i have just been selected as part of the reduction in force here at amdahl for all that are currently in a dialog with me or are waiting letters from me i have saved your letters on floppy and will continue when i get back on the net from another account in the future for those who are on the genie network my email address there is t rose god bless and goodbye until then if you want to continue dialogs with me via us mail i can be contacted at tony rose c o jude missions p o box felton ca
soc.religion.christian	re mary s assumption dave bernard david bernard central sun com wrote when elizabeth greeted mary elizabeth said something to the effect that mary out of all women was blessed if so it appears that this exactly places mary beyond the sanctification of normal humanity the phrase is eulogemene su en gunaixin blessed are you among women there is nothing to indicate that this is an exceptional or unique status only that as a woman mary was blessed adding the word all is not a fair reading of the text there are some good reasons for the church s veneration of mary but they cannot depend on this verse revdak netcom com
soc.religion.christian	boston church dear moderator would you add this to the bcc faq in case there are any ex members of the boston church of christ looking for a support organization here s the number of bostonex in burlington ma s r c readers in new england may be interested in seeing a series of news reports about the bcc in the pm nightly news on channel wcvb boston for the next few days starting wed for viewers outside the boston area the same telecasts will also be aired on the new england cable news channel at pm
soc.religion.christian	marian apparitions the blessed virgin mary appeared to catherine laboure a nun of the sisters of charity on july at rue du bac paris sister catherine was awakened late that night by a small boy age or who was literally glowing with some sort of interior light the child led her to the sanctuary of the chapel where he promised the virgin mary was to be found awaiting her our lady appeared to her and instructed her for two hours or more on matters pertaining to her life and to the future of france and the world on november our lady appeared again to catherine she instructed her to have a medal struck she told her that those who wore this medal would enjoy special protection from the mother of god and would receive great graces in less than a year there were three more apparitions in june of the medals were a reality many reports were received by those who wore it within two years of its issuing the medal was known as the miraculous medal catherine died in her body to this day is remarkably preserved incorrupt she was canonized on july her body lies in the chapel at the motherhouse on the rue du bac where she had her first meeting with our lady the apparition on november was of average height and clothed in white with a veil that flowed over the head and fell to the floor above the altar a pyramid painted to represent god s all knowing wisdom looked down on them our lady s feet rested on a white globe and there was also a green serpent with yellow spots that she was stepping on in her hands was a golden ball that represented the world great streams of light issued from her hands and she also showed catherine an image of two hearts the sacred heart wrapped in piercing thorns and her own heart punctured by a sword the sword represented her suffering with jesus the apparitions announced the onset of the great battle and forewarned that a dark era lay in the immediate future it was the apparition leading up to the recent ones our lady began to dispense secrets and with the globe she revealed herself in worldwide dispute with the forces of the dark she told catherine the times are evil misfortunes will fall upon france the throne will be overturned the entire world will be overcome by evils of all kinds refer to books on st catherine for more of our lady s messages a copy of the medal is also available in catholic bookstores i will post other marian events every few days or so including the ones happening today which are still under investigation these postings serve only to introduce you to these events please look more into them and understand the reason for the increasing number and urgency of these apparitions mark ashley disclaimer my opinions not harris marka gcx ssd csd harris com the lost los angelino
soc.religion.christian	re baptism requires faith aaronc athena mit edu aaron bryce cardenas writes it troubles me that there have been so many posts recently trying to support the doctrine of original sin this is primarily a catholic doctrine with no other purpose than to defend the idea of infant baptism if you read all of ezekiel you will see that god doesn t hold us guilty for anyone else s sins so we can have no original guilt from adam this neatly eliminates the need for a savior and proves that we can be saved by works alone if we have no original sin then it is possible for us to save ourselves by not sinning i understand the reasoning behind your argument but it leads to sheer folly original sin is the reason we need faith to be saved alan terlep and the scorpion says it s oakland university rochester mi in my nature atterlep vela acs oakland edu
soc.religion.christian	re the doctrine of original sin eugen bigelow writes it is also noteworthy to consider jesus attitude he had no argument with the pharisees over any of the ot canon john and explained to his followers on the road to emmaus that in the law prophets and psalms which referred to him the ot division of scripture luke as well as in luke taking genesis to chronicles the jewish order we would say genesis to malachi as scripture you should remember that in adam s transgression all men and women sinned as paul wrote all of humanity cooperativley reblled against god in adma s sin thus all are subject to it and the sin is transmitted from generation to generation andy byler andy i did not write the above paragraph i believe this is about the rd time someone else s words have been attributed to me i can t speak for the rest of humanity but i did not cooperatively rebell against anything
soc.religion.christian	re mormon beliefs about children born out of wedlock aaronc athena mit edu aaron bryce cardenas writes bruce webster writes indeed lds doctrine goes one step further and in some cases holds parents responsible for their children s sins if they have failed to bring them up properly cf d c note that this passage applies it only to members of the lds church i include the key verse d c because others may not have the reference and again inasmuch as parents have children in zion or in any of her stakes which are organized that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance faith in christ the son of the living god and of baptism and the gift of the holy ghost by the laying on of the hands when eight years old the sin be upon the heads of the parents what is the sin of the parents hi bruce how do you reconcile this practice with ezekiel ezekiel the soul who sins is the one who will die the son will not share the guilt of the father nor will the father share the guilt of the son the righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him is ezekiel not translated correctly in your eyes perhaps ezekiel teaches a correct principle however it assumes that fathers and sons have equal knowledge to prepare for the judgment parents are responsible to teach their children the gospel and other life skills should they fail to make a sufficient attempt to teach their children the parent would be held responsible not for their children s sins but for not teaching them properly whenever the lord installs someone to a position of authority in either the family or the church he expects that person to teach those in his charge in ezekiel someone called to care for others is likened to a watchman unto the house of israel if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way that man shall die in his iniquity but his blood will i require at thine hand nevertheless if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it if he do not turn from his way he shall die in his iniquity but thou hast delivered thy soul even though the d c prefaces this commandment with parents have children in zion i believe all parents are responsible for teaching their children whatever good principles they understand however lds parents accept greater responsbility and could be judged more strictly a idler
soc.religion.christian	re mary s assumption david bernard central sun com dave bernard writes when elizabeth greeted mary elizabeth said something to the effect that mary out of all women was blessed if so it appears that this exactly places mary beyond the sanctification of normal humanity i don t see how this logically follows true enough mary received a blessing beyond any granted in all the history of humanity by being privileged to be the mother of the savior it says nothing about mary needing to be a blessed person first in order that she might thereby be worthy to bear the son of god again i think the problem is that as humans we can t comprehend how the sinless incarnation could spring from sinful human flesh and god s spirit rather than simply accept the gracious miracle of god we must needs try to dope out a mechanism or rationale as to how this could be mary s own words my spirit rejoices in god my savior for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden sound like the words of a human aware of her own humanity in need of a savior similar to what david proclaimed in his psalms not the words of a holy being with no further need for god s grace i really apologize for harping on this i don t suppose it s important it s just that i see mary and joseph and the baby reduced to placid serene figurines i feel we lose the wonder in the fact that god chose to come down to you and i to be born of people like you and i to share our existence and redeem us from it s fallenness by his holy incarnation paul marxhausen university of nebraska lincoln grace happens
soc.religion.christian	re arsenokoitai nt meaning of conviction of sin a meta exegetical or methodological essay in article may athos rutgers edu rexlex fnal fnal gov writes i can t post it all at once so it will come piece meal and not daily i look forward to reading it when i got to the library last week it was with the object in view to look at some articles that have appeared over the last few years since my previous look at the literature un fortunately they had moved the journal back issues so i didn t get a look at the articles i was hoping to find i will continue to reserve my own judgment on arsenokoitai until i have seen the latest scholarly work and i can hope that rexlex s posting may give some meat to chew on however what i can do now is to point out the methodological issues what needs to be shown for anything to be concluded in this matter if the article rexlex posts addresses these issues so much the better if not you will perhaps understand why the problem is hard james b deyoung writes in abstractu this study argues that paul coined the term arsenokoitai deriving it from the lxx of lev cf and using it for homosexual orientation and behavior it is only a minor point but let me make it anyway de young has already contradicted his own prior assertion in this abstract that the ancient analysis of these issues was concerned with actions and not with orientation i doubt this will have much bearing on the article as such but thought i should point it out from the start the hypothesis de young is advancing is that paul a coined the word and b his intended meaning for it was in reference to the levitical law the questions i wish to raise are how would one go about confirming the truth of this hypothesis and what follows if one accepts or stipulates for the sake of the discussion that it is correct note that b is independent of a i consider b far more plausible than a which seems merely to be a counsel of despair over finding nothing in the literature contemporary with paul to clarify this word so far as i know paul does not in general invent words anywhere else in his letters unless you have an otherwise established pattern of coinages it is not sound methodology to assume it particularly if he gives no hint in the immedi ate text to fix the coinage s meaning for his audience as yet the extract presents no evidence at all what do we need to confirm or reject the hypothesis which i should say at the outset i find somewhat plausible i certainly know of nothing which makes it an impossible way of construing this problem passage i m going to set aside for the moment the question of whether paul might have coined this usage to look at the more tractable question of what it means for this there are in principle two kinds of evidence that can be adduced internal and external that is we can look at the text of paul s letter for clarification or look outside that to prior or contemporary writings that paul might have relied on or to derivative writings that have some claim of access to paul s meaning the single worst problem with this word in corinthians is that there is no internal evidence for paul s meaning he uses the word totally without an explanation or hint as to his meaning save that its inclusion in a list of negatives implies that it has for him some negative meaning we are left as the only internal clue with the etymology or formation of the word which is indeed the reason that de young and others before him have associated it with the leviticus prohibition of men verbing with other men where verb is some standard euphemism for having sex lie in leviticus bed in greek one problem is that bedders koitai is not as far as i know used that way in greek therefore i offer one serious test which de young s hypothesis must pass or be rejected o find a body of greek texts contemporary with paul or not much prior to his day such that the x koitai formation implies men who have sex with x obviously the best case is to find such usages of arsenokoitai itself such texts would be confirmation that the word can be read that way it is worth emphasizing that compound words are not in general under standable by projecting what the reader may imagine by the juxtaposition of the roots existence of such parallels doesn t prove the hypothesis correct but it goes a long way towards making such a usage whether or not original with paul in the specific case of x arse n possible of comprehension by his readers my test moves in the direction of external evidence if paul does not in his text explain his word and he does not then he has to expect his readers to already know the word which stands against its being a coinage or to expect that it mimics word formations that they do know such that they can guess his meaning without too much floundering external evidence that is texts other than paul s own and lexicographic or social historical considerations that might be adduced then come into the picture if there are other uses of the word not dependent on paul which have sufficient internal contextual evidence or some gloss by a contemporary scribe to show a derogatory reference to male homosexu ality or similar koitai formations used in similar ways then one has grounds for o denying that paul coined the word and o assuming that his readers might understand his meaning do you see the problem if paul coined the word then he requires his readers to share enough context with him to comprehend his coinage and its intent in this case that they would stipulating de young s guess understand him to be referring to the levitical universal prohibition of male male sex this mind you in a context where paul has emphasized at least to other congregations and so one assumes to the corinthians how else to explain cor and the corinthians having to be pulled back from overinterpreting their freedom the non applicability of torah law to his gentile converts among the considerations that make it implausible for paul to have coined the word its first element is archaic arse n is an old attic or ionic form of what in even classical let alone koine times would be assimilated as arre n to me this implies that we are even more than usually needful of external evidence to pin down meaning and usage what is paul doing inventing a word in obsolete attic formation and if he didn t coin the word but picked it up like the others in his list as common terms of derogation then his meaning will be for his readers constrained by that common meaning since he gives no other i cannot emphasize enough that paul does not tell us what he means by this word we and his original readers are guessing they at least had a contemporary context and maybe paul had used this very word and explained it in great detail to them in person but we have no trace of evidence of that and to suppose it is mere fantasy so we are desperately in need of external evidence about this word and it seems to be exceptionally meagre that is precisely the problem i can think of several more or less equally plausible hypotheses about the word a it was a standard gutter term of abuse for some or all maybe very specific maybe very general homosexual male activities b it was a term of abuse used by jews about the awful homosexual greeks which may or may not be consciously associated on their part with the leviticus passage c paul invented the term and again there may or may not be an association with leviticus in his doing so he may or may not intend the word to have an explicit and universal application with absolute and clear boundaries since none of his other words in that list have such character this last seems to me about the least plausible of the hypotheses i m advancing of these i d say off the top of my head that a is most plausible but i still have reservations about that too if the word never appears before paul and in later uses has some evidence of depending on paul then one can opt for paul s coining it if it does appear before him he might still have coined it being unaware of prior use in which case his coinage is inherently confusing but one should normally demote c on the basis of any earlier uses especially if they can be shown to have been at all common in the places paul traveled in either of the a or b cases one has to take into account paul s relation to the community of usage he picked the word up from and whether it be from the greek or jewish communities paul s relations are hardly straight forward there is so far as i have yet seen little or no external evidence to aid us in selecting one of these or some other hypothesis your guess is as good as mine or maybe worse or maybe better depending on a lot of things but it remains so far guesswork and i don t know about you but i for one will not equate human guesswork with the will of god by all means be convinced in your own conscience about what paul is getting at as he says elsewhere on what was in his day a major controversy of somewhat this same character romans hold on to your own belief as between yourself and god and consider the man fortunate who can make his decision without going against his conscience but anybody who eats in a state of doubt is condemned because he is not in good faith and every act done in bad faith is a sin for my part i cannot see any way to resolve paul s meaning in the use of arsenokoitai without directly applicable external evidence and by the nature of such external evidence it will never reach to certainty of constraining paul s own intent paul like humpty dumpty and me and all the rest of us will use words in ways that are personal choices and sometimes leave his readers puzzled if that puzzlement leads you to god it may be blessed if it should lead away as some of paul s words have led some people then paul s intense communicative effort to contrive his meaning in our souls may have some regretable consequences i have always found paul to be a fantastically reliable guide if i read him in the large if i can see him lay out his position in detail and hammer it home time and time again i am much less certain about his meaning in his many brief and cryptic passages such as this one in my usual discursive way i have gone on at great length about the first of my intended meta exegetical points what would be needed to confirm that paul a coined or b in any case meant the word to mean the same as the leviticus prohibition my second point is to stipulate this hypo thesis and follow up what it implies for both his initial readers and for later christians given my verbosity this will be tomorrow night s meditation michael l siemon i say you are gods sons of the mls panix com most high all of you nevertheless or you shall die like men and fall mls ulysses att com like any prince psalm
soc.religion.christian	re homosexual issues in christianity mls panix com michael siemon writes in article may athos rutgers edu mserv mozart cc iup edu someone named mark writes do not be deceived neither fornicators nor idolators nor adulterers nor effeminate nor homosexuals nor thieves nor the covetous nor drunkards nor revilers nor swindlers shall inherit the kingdom of god and such were some of you i cor the moderator adequately discusses the circularity of your use of porneia in this i think we can all agree with paul that there are some kinds of activity that could be named by fornication or theft or coveting or reviling or drunkenness which would well deserve condemnation we may or may not agree to the bounds of those categories however and the very fact that they are argued over suggests that not only is the matter not at all clear but that paul an excellent rhetorician had no interest in making them clear leaving matters rather to our spirit led decisions with all the uncomfortable living with other readings that has dominated christian discussion of all these areas what is fornication sex outside of marriage abuse of sex is not homosexual intercourse outside the context of marriage isn t it an unatural use of what god has given us why is it that homosexuals are using the grace of god as a license to practice sin for certain persons have crept in unnoticed those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation ungodly persons who turn the grace of our god into licentiousness and deny our only master and lord jesus christ jude nasb what is defined by god as a legitimate marriage for this cause a man shall leave his father and his mother and shall cleave to his wife and the shall become one flesh gen nasb and he answer and said have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female and said for this cause a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife and the two shall become one flesh consequently they are no longer two but one flesh what therefore god has joined together let no man separate matt nasb but because of immoralities let each man have his own wife and let each woman have her own husband let the husband fulfill his duty to his wife and likewise also the wife to her husband corinthians nasb there are plenty of laws prohibiting sexual behavior to be found in leviticus most of which christians ignore completely they never even bother to examine them they just assume that they know which ones are moral and which ones are ritual well i have news for you any anthropology course should sensitize you to ritual and clean vs unlcean as categories in an awful lot of societies we have them too but buried pretty deep and i cannot see any ground for distinguishing these bits of leviticus from the ritual law which no christian i know feels applies to us i disagree every law that is written in leviticus should be looked at as sin that is why we have a need for a savior i can understand someone who may not know a particular sin listed in the levitcal law but i would hope that they would repent when confronted with it i notice that the verse forbidding bestiality immediately follows the verse prohibiting what appears to be homosexual intercourse well la ti da so what this is almost as slimey an argument as the one that homosexuality rape i know of no one who argues seriously though one can always find jokers in defense of bestiality it is absolutely irrelevant and incomparable to the issues gay christians do raise which concern sexual activity within committed consensual human adult realtionships so that your bringing it up is no more relevant than the laws of kashrut if you cannot address the actual issues you are being bloody dishonest in trailing this red herring in front of the world if you want to address bestiality that is your business not mine and attempting to torpedo a serious issue by using what is in our culture a ridiculous joke shows that you have no interest in hearing us as human beings you want to dismiss us and use the sleaziest means you can think of to do so also i noticed that the preceeding verses say also you shall not approach a woman to uncover her nakedness during her menstrual impurity and you shall not have intercourse with your neighbors wife to be defiled with her leviticus nasb these verses are just as relevant as you shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female it is an abomination leviticus nasb why was god telling the israelites not to practice such things do not defile yourselves by any of these things for by all these the nations which i am casting out before you have become defiled for the land has become defiled therefore i have visited its punishment upon it so the land has spewed out its inhabitants but as for you you are to keep my statutes and judgments and shall not do any of these abominations neither the native nor the alien who sojourns among you leviticus nasb he is the lord listen to what he has to say nobody wants to dismiss homosexuals we do love you but we don t agree that what you practice is not sin you have not truly repented of your sin we hate the sin that is within your lives i hate sin that is in my life all christians should hate the sin that is within their own lives confrontaion with sin should bring about repentance yes i agree with john but i also know that jesus said repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand matt if you don t agree that homosexuality is sin than how can you repent from it this means that you remain in bondage to it repent from it and god will set you free in his love mike michael christensen trust the lord with all your heart senior product support engineer and do not lean on your own procom technology inc understanding proverbs nasb
soc.religion.christian	daily verse you will keep in perfect peace him whose mind is steadfast because he trusts in you isaiah
soc.religion.christian	sleeping with one s aunt the last time we discussed homosexuality i asked whether anyone could identify any other act besides homosexual intercourse that the bible prohibited but which might in some circumstances bring no apparent harm to anyone put another way the question is whether homosexual intercourse is the only act that christians are supposed to believe is immoral solely on the basis that god says it is with no insight being offered as to why it is immoral no one could answer my question in either form from the bible i did get an interesting response based on roman catholic theology however i think now that i can at least answer my first question link hudson pointed me to it in his recent comments about sleeping with one s aunt incest is held to be immoral in every society that is there are some degrees of relationship where marriage and thus intercouse is prohibited the bible is no exception the trouble is that it may be difficult to see why a particular relationship qualifies as incestuous societies differ as to how they define incest genetic reasons are sometimes offered but all the biblical cases cannot be dealt with that way why can t a man sleep with his step mother assuming that his father is dead and that he has married her how does this case differ from the duty to marry one s brother s childless wife are these two cases parallel does the bible prohibit some incestuous marriages and homosexual marriages for the same reason perhaps that god knows they are not good for us and yet we are incapable of understanding why p s please don t bother writing me to tell me that i am a homophobe as some did last time my mind is not made up on these questions you don t know whether i am homophobic or not you don t know me to call me or anyone else a homophobe without knowing the person may be as much an expression of bigotry as some homophobic remarks stan armstrong religious studies dept saint mary s university halifax n s armstrong husky stmarys ca att clyde watmath water dalcs armstrng
soc.religion.christian	re question about hell in article may athos rutgers edu pwhite empros com peter white writes luke talks about the rich man and lazarus matthew talks about the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels revelations and reference this fire as the place where unbelievers are thrown matthew talks about being thrown into the eternal fire and the fire of hell it seems quite clear that there is this place where a fire burns forever from the revelations passages it is clear that the devil and his angels will be tormented there forever from the matthew passage it doesn t seem abundantly clear whether the punishment of unbelievers is everlasting in the sense of final or in the sense of continual you ve missed on very important passage thess for after all it is only just for god to repay with affliction those who afflict you and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the lord jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire dealing out retribution to those who do not know god and to those who do not obey the gospel of our lord jesus and these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction away from the presence of the lord and from the glory of his power when he comes to be glorified in his saints on that day and to be marveled at among all who have believed for our testimony to you was believed things to note from this passage unbelievers are both those who openly reject the gospel and those who do not know god the eternal destruction is the same as the eternal hope in this distructions primarily emphasize that it is separation from the presence of god the context is speaking of the nd advent while is speaking of the rapture don t confuse the two in the bible i am not aware of any discussion about the specifics of hell beyond the general of hot unpleasant and torment yet we have a far greater discription of hell that we do heaven for instance it is not discussed how if at all the rich man can continually stay in the fire and still feel discomfort or pain or whether there is some point at which the pain sensing ability is burned up if you can forgive the graphicalness if you throw a physical body into a fire assuming the person starts out alive at some fairly quick point the nerves are destroyed and pain is no longer sensed if this was like earthly fire that requires a gas producing substance to ignite however there seems to be a different type of fire as expressed in the burning bush that was not consumed also the daniel acct shows that the laws of nature can be interupted even with earthly fire it is not stated what occurs when at the judgement the unbelievers who are already physically dead are cast into hell maybe you don t understand there will be those who are alive at the end of the millenium who will walk straight into the gwtj even those who have died in their sin will be resurrected i e reunited with their physical body to receive condemnation i e they no longer have a physical body so they can t feel physical pain this is contrary to the teaching of scripture what could be sensed continually is that those in hell are to be forever without god the lazarus rich man parable is told with the idea of having the listener think in physical terms in order to get the point that some people won t listen to god even after he rises from the dead this is conjecture at best if you are using it to support the no physical body thesis the point of the parable is to reach the hard hearted here who are not listening to the fact of the resurrection nor the gospel about jesus christ it seems reasonable to also draw from the parable that hell is not even remotely pleasant the true awlfulness of hell is that it is eternal separation from god after having seen the glory of his presence at the gwtj but whether it was open rebellion against the revealed gospel of christ or if it is not having known god not saught him as he is then as paul says they are without excuss and that every mouth will be stopped there will be no defense at the judgment seat of god therefore we understand it is appointed unto man once to die and then comes judgment literally just because it is horrific doesn t make it less of a reality it should compel those of us who have the riches of christ to share it with others rex
soc.religion.christian	re faq essay on homosexuality in article may athos rutgers edu hudson athena cs uga edu paul hudson jr writes i think we must be careful before we totally throw out leviticus if the law is reflection of god s character and true holy nature then those who say that god endorses homosexuality run into a problem though this will be addressed in the series of articles i m posting now under aresnokoitia i can t wait this just really blew my socks off read i tim verses speaks against those who have perverted the teachings of the mosaic law in vv we have in order the th thru the th commandments and in the midst of this listing is homosexuals the decalogue above everything else is seen as god s absolute if you don t believe in absolutes then you have nothing do do with jehovah of the ot which paul reveals to be the messiah of the nt lord christ jesus transliterates to read jehovah s anointed savior in i cor we see the same emphasis of moral separation from the pagan gentiles as we do in lev in i cor only one notation drunkards is not found in lev paul was not naive in his use of the lxx he knew full well how he was using the law of god that was given in the ot for application in the nt as i ve said the law was fulfilled not done away with of questions we are trying to deal with he encountered homosexuality only in contexts where most people would probably agree that it was wrong he had never faced the experience of christians who try to act straight and fail and he had never faced christians who are trying to define a christian homosexuality which fits with general christian ideals of fidelity and of seeing sexuality as a mirror of the relationship between god and man it is unfair to take paul s judgement on homosexuality among idolaters and use it to make judgements on these questions this understanding is thoroughly rebutted in deyoungs article that is being posted please refer to it one of the reasons that some of us do not accept that common argument is because paul probably did face this and other problems we can do better than probably which is not an adequate defense against the statement that paul s culture didn t have the same understanding of homosexuality as ours again read the article because it uses facts i claim that the question of how to counsel homosexual christians is not entirely a theological issue but also a pastoral one i don t see how you come to that conclusion i think i do because i have worked in the homosexual community by means of working with aids patients the pastoral is merely the practical application of the theological truth however those who are working thru the issue of homosexuality need to have our love and understanding just as with a friend who is contiplating cheating on his wife or a friend who lives with his girlfriend yet you continue to witness to him but once the choice is made and there is no remorse then i feel that paul s pastoral care as presented in the corinthian church come to bear significance the one in active rebellion should be placed outside of the church if a believer and if a non believer then one wipes his sandels and leaves it in gods hand if there was a member in your youth group who was constantly pawing at the little girls you wouldn t hesitate to deal with the matter quickly and decisivly that in part betrays the present political correctness of the issue pederasty is not accepted at the present but some how we are to accept homosexuality because the latter is politically correct while the former is not at least not yet this is how the morals decay i guess this would follow the liberal application in the political realm of economics the liberals want to tax the rich in the federal yet in their own states when they try to get businesses to settle there they give tax incentives to these same richies it comes down to a moral code of relativeness or to use the cultural thing politically correct at the moment rex you might want to look over tim again if this is really the th through th commandments we seem to be missing thieves and homosexuals would have to be fit in under adultery this is of course possible if arsenokoitia has a narrower meaning than homosexuality in general but i think that s not your thesis i have no objection per se to the idea that the author of tim might have quoted the commandments but through minus one and plus a few things begins to look a bit marginal clh
soc.religion.christian	re question jesus alone oneness in article may athos rutgers edu jblanken ccat sas upenn edu james r blankenship writes jesus only and oneness tend to refer to groups that do deny the trinity they explain matthew by saying that jesus is the name of the father jesus is the name of the son and jesus is the name of the name of the holy spirit father son holy spirit referring to different roles all filled by jesus imho this are going from bad to worse in in was bad enough i do not like a god who prays to himself i refuse to believe jesus prayed to himself let s get real if the scriptures say he prayed to the father then the father is someone different than the son i have no problems with multiple gods to me the whole context of the scriptures says be perfect even as your father who is in heaven that we can be co heirs with christ that we will be like him co heirs share all things equally including knowledge power dominion etc when i am like him christ i will be the same as he is and he is a god if god cannot do this the his is not all powerful and he is not god if he will not he is a liar and he is not god but if he does he is the greatest of all the gods i don t know of anyone who says that jesus prayed to himself the whole point of the trinity is that there s enough of a distinction within god that relationship is possible this implies some sort of communication i assume that in their native form the father and son are directly enough connected that prayer in our sense isn t involved but jesus is the incarnation of the son i e the logos made flesh when he s in a human form his human actions are limited to human capabilities so communication with the father takes the form of prayer i don t see that there s anything problematical about that it seems to be implicit in the whole idea of incarnation clh
soc.religion.christian	re deuterocanonicals esp sirach in article may athos rutgers edu db n andrew cmu edu d andrew byler writes michael siemon writes protestants love to play up jerome for all he is worth yes but no more than he is worth seriously jerome is merely and grandly another christian witness to be taken for what he can tell us he is one in the community of saints you seem to wish for a greater polarization and dichotomy between catholic and protestant thought than seems to me from a historical perspective to be valid to be sure rome rejects some significant aspects of protestant thought just as vehemently as protestants reject some significant aspects of roman thought other than some peoplw who apparently try to embody the greatest extreme of this rejection on either side there is not quite so vast a gulf fixed as casual observers seem to assume ecumenical consultations between rome and the lutherans as well as those between rome and the anglican communion to which i belong show very nearly complete convergence on understanding the basic theological issues the sticking points tend to be ecclesiology and church polity thus for example as you go on to say they should remeber that after the decree of pope st damsus i many of us do not regard a papal decretal as having any necessary as opposed to political significance sometimes it will sometimes it won t you misread me if you think that my communion at least throws out the deuterocanonical books nor do i think you should overstress the sense in which the more reformed may do so again why must the church of jesus christ adopt the canon of the unbelieving jews drawn up in jamnia in ad in countering the christian use of the septuagint i seriously suggest you rethink what you are saying here it verges on and could be taken as anti semitic in the worst sense the unbelieving jews were according to what i understand as a christian the chosen people of god and the recipients of his pre incarnational revelation i think they have some say in the matter the javneh meeting should not be over interpreted a recent magisterial study titled mikra i don t have more citation information on hand sorry produced primarily from the background of christian rather than specifically jewish scholarship suggests strongly that the javneh meeting mostly resolved a lingering question where in practice the canon had long been fixed on the basis of the scrolls that were kept in the temple and thereby made the hands unclean when used the list of sacred books that may be drawn up from josephus and other pre yavneh sources correspond plus or minus one book if i rememeber the chapter correctly to the current jewish canon of tanakh all of this is not to throw out the deuterocanonicals what by the way is your position about the books the greeks accept and rome does not just to observe that the issue is complex and simply binary judgment does not do it justice andy byler michael l siemon i say you are gods sons of the mls panix com most high all of you nevertheless or you shall die like men and fall mls ulysses att com like any prince psalm
soc.religion.christian	christian homosexuality part of note i am breaking this reply into parts due to length mls panix com michael siemon writes in article may athos rutgers edu mserv mozart cc iup edu someone named mark writes mls panix com michael siemon writes homosexual christians have indeed checked out these verses some of them are used against us only through incredibly perverse interpretations others simply do not address the issues i can see that some of the above verses do not clearly address the issues there are exactly zero verses that clearly address the issues i agree that there are no verses that have gone unchallenged by gay rights activists but if there are zero verses that clearly address the issues doesn t that mean that there are also no verses that clearly support your case are you sure you want to say that there are zero verses that clearly address the issues however a couple of them seem as though they do not require incredibly perverse interpretations in order to be seen as condemning homosexuality the kind of interpretation i see as incredibly perverse is that applied to the story of sodom as if it were a blanket equation of homosexual behavior and rape since christians citing the bible in such a context should be presumed to have at least read the story it amounts to slander a charge that homosexuality rape to use that against us the story in genesis tells of the citizens of sodom demanding an opportunity to know the two men who were lot s guests the fact that the sodomites became angry when lot offered them his daughters could be seen as indicating that they were interested only in homosexual intercourse yes what they wanted was rape homosexual rape and everybody agrees that that is wrong some christians believe that the homosexual aspect of their desire was just as sinful as the rape aspect of their desire the passage does not say what it was that so offended god whether it was the homosexuality or the intended rape or both but i believe that it is only fair to consider all the possible alternatives in the light of related scriptures i do not believe that those who believe god was offended by both the homosexuality and the rape are trying to say that homosexuality is itself a form of rape you seems to take the view that the only sin described in gen is in the fact that the sodomites wanted to commit rape and that it is unfair to stigmatize their homosexuality by associating it with the sin of rape i can see how you might reach such a conclusion if you started from the conclusion that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality but then again we re not supposed to start from our conclusions because that s circular reasoning if god is in fact opposed to homosexual intercourse in general then the more probably interpretation is that he was at least as offended by the sodomites blatant homosexuality as he was by their intent to commit rape later on i will document why i believe the old testament portrays god as one who despises any homosexual intercourse even if both partners are consenting adults do not be deceived neither fornicators nor idolators nor adulterers nor effeminate nor homosexuals nor thieves nor the covetous nor drunkards nor revilers nor swindlers shall inherit the kingdom of god and such were some of you i cor the moderator adequately discusses the circularity of your use of porneia in this the moderator found my proposal to be circular in that he regarded the church as the proper authority for determining what kinds of marriages would be legitimate and thus the church s refusal to recognize perverted marriages was circular reasoning my questions however had nothing to do with the church ordaining new kinds of marriages and so his argument was something of a straw man in terms of my original question the precise definition translation of porneia isn t really important unless you are trying to argue that the bible doesn t really condemn extramarital sex i m not sure the moderator was trying to do that in any case i think both you and the moderator have missed the point here when jesus was asked about divorce he replied have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female and said for this cause a man shall leave his father and mother and shall cleave to his wife and the two shall become one flesh consequently they are no longer two but one flesh what therefore god has joined together let no man separate mt i read here that the sexual union of a man male and his wife female is a divinely ordained union in other words the institution of heterosexual marriage is something ordained and established by god not by men and not by the church but by god men are not supposed to dissolve this union in jesus words because it is not something created by men this is not circular reasoning this is just reading god s word i read in the bible that god ordained the union of male and female i do not read of any similar divinely ordained union of two males or two females granted there have been uninspired men who have ordained alternative unions isn t caligula reported to have married his horse but the only union that jesus refers to as what god has joined together is the heterosexual union of a man and his wife pardon me for mentioning caligula i know that s probably inflammatory and i should save it for the discussion on bestiality in part of this post please hold off on passing judgement on me until you have read that section of my reply anyway my original question was not whether we should translate porneia in a way that condemns only a select few kinds of extramarital sex my question was given that heterosexual marriage is the only union described by the bible as divinely ordained and given a biblical prohibition against sex outside of marriage is homosexual intercourse sinful of course i see now that first we need to ask whether the bible really condemns sex outside of marriage you seem to be trying to argue that only certain kinds of extramarital sex and other sins are really wrong i think we can all agree with paul that there are some kinds of activity that could be named by fornication or theft or coveting or reviling or drunkenness which would well deserve condemnation we may or may not agree to the bounds of those categories however and the very fact that they are argued over suggests that not only is the matter not at all clear but that paul an excellent rhetorician had no interest in making them clear leaving matters rather to our spirit led decisions with all the uncomfortable living with other readings that has dominated christian discussion of all these areas alternatively it may be that the definition of such terms as porneia and all the rest was in paul s day what we would call a faq i e the law as the tutor appointed by god to lead us to christ had just spent some sixteen centuries drumming into the heads of god s people the idea that things like homosexual intercourse were abominations that deserved punishment by death perhaps paul didn t go into detail on what porneia c were because after years he considered the question to have been dealt with already perhaps the reason god s apostles and prophets did not devote a great deal of time defining a distinct new testament sexuality was because he did not intend any significant changes in the sexuality he had already established by the law i ll discuss the law and homosexuality in greater detail below but i just wanted to point out that the new testament s failure to develop a detailed new standard of sexuality is not necessarily evidence that god does not care about sexual conduct especially after years of putting people to death for practicing homosexuality homosexual behavior is no different i and the other gay christians i know are adamant in condemning rape heterosexual or homosexual and child molestation heterosexual or homosexual and even the possibly harmless but obsessive kinds of sex heterosexual or homosexual that would stand condemned by paul in the very continuation of the chapter you cite may i mildly suggest that what paul does in his letter that you want to use is perhaps a good guide to his meaning i am free to do anything you say yes but not everything is for my good no doubt i am free to do anything but i for one will not let anything make free with me cor which is a restatement that we must have no other god before god a commandment neither i nor any other gay christian wishes to break some people are indeed involved in obsessively driven modes of sexual behavior it is just as wrong though slightly less incendiary so it s a secondary argument from the phobic contingent to equate homosexuality with such behavior as to equate it with the rape of god s messengers and how do you define an obsessively driven mode of sexual behavior how do you determine the difference between obsessive sexual behavior and normal sex drives is the desire to have sinful sex an obsessively driven mode of behavior i think you see that this is circular reasoning why is it defined as sinful because it is obsessive what makes it obsessive the fact that the person is driven to seek it even though it s sinful or is it obsessive because it is a desire for that which society condemns once again that s circular why is it defined as obsessive because the person wants it even though society condemns it why does society condemn it because it is obsessive you seem to be trying to limit the bible s condemnation of porneia to only perverted sex acts but i don t think you can really define perverted without falling into exactly the same circularity you accuse me of what then is paul condemning when he declares that fornicators shall not enter the kindgom of heaven i won t deal with the exegesis of leviticus except very tangentially fundamentally you are exhibiting the same circularity here as in your assumption that you know what porneia means i think you misunderstood me i was not trying to make an argument on some technical definition of porneia i was raising the issues of the sinfulness of extramarital sex and the lack of any scriptural evidence of a homosexual counterpart to the divinely ordained union of heterosexual couples there are plenty of laws prohibiting sexual behavior to be found in leviticus most of which christians ignore completely they never even bother to examine them they just assume that they know which ones are moral and which ones are ritual well i have news for you any anthropology course should sensitize you to ritual and clean vs unlcean as categories in an awful lot of societies we have them too but buried pretty deep and i cannot see any ground for distinguishing these bits of leviticus from the ritual law which no christian i know feels applies to us i m dead serious here when people start going on as they do in this matter about how repulsive and unnatural our acts are and what do they know about it huh it is a solid clue to the same sort of arbitrary cultural inculcations as the american prejudice against eating insects please remember what you just said here for when we discuss bestiality in part on what basis other than assuming your conclusion can you say that the law against male male intercourse in leviticus is not a part of the ritual law i am glad you asked would you agree that if god condemns homosexual intercourse even among those who are not under the law of moses then this would show that god s condemnation of homosexual acts goes beyond the ritual law if i can show you from scripture that god punished the homosexual behavior of people who were not under the law of moses would you agree that god s definition of homosexual intercourse as an abomination is not limited to just the ritual law and those who are under the law i ve been having a private email discussion with a th day adventist on the subject of the sabbath and my main point against a christian sabbath keeping requirement has been that nowhere in scripture does god command gentiles to rest on the sabbath nor does he ever condemn gentiles for failing to rest on the sabbath this illustrates the difference between universal requirements such as thou shalt not kill and requirements that are merely part of the temporary jews only law of moses such as the sabbath the point you are trying to make is that you think the classification of homosexual intercourse as an abomination is just a part of the temporary jews only law of moses i on the other hand believe that it was labelled by god as an abomination for gentiles as well as jews and that he punished those guilty of this behavior by death or exile here s why back in genesis god promises to give abraham all the land that was then in the possession of the amorite kinda hard on the amorite don t you think but in verse we have a clue that this might not be as unjust as it sounds it seems god is going to postpone this takeover for quite a while because the iniquity of the amorite is not yet complete remember this is all long before there was a ritual law what then was the iniquity the amorite was committing that when complete would justify his being cast out of his own land and or killed go back and look at lev again verses list a variety of sins including child sacrifice incest homosexuality and bestiality beginning in verse god starts saying do not defile yourselves by any of these things for by all these things the nations which i am casting out before you have become defiled for the land has become defiled therefore i have visited its punishment upon it so the land has spewed out its inhabitants for whoever does any of these abominations those persons who do so shall be cut off from among their people notice that god says the gentile nations who are not under the ritual law of moses are about to be punished because they have defiled themselves and their land by committing abominations that include incest bestiality and homosexuality flip ahead two chapters to lev and you will find these same abominations listed and this time god decrees the death penalty on anyone involved in any of these things including specifically a man lying with another man as one lies with a woman lv their bloodguiltiness was upon them meaning that in god s eyes they deserved to die for having done such things according to lev even the alien non jew who sojourns among you was to refrain from these practices on penalty of being cut off by god from among their people under the circumstances i believe it would be very difficult to support the claim that in the old testament god objected only to the intended rape and not the homosexuality in sodom since god took the trouble to specifically list sex between two consenting men as one of the reasons for wiping out the canaanite nations not homosexual rape mind you but plain voluntary gay sex i d say god was not neutral on the subject of homosexual behavior even by those who had nothing to do with the mosaic covenant for those christians who do think that some parts of leviticus can be law for christians while others are not even to be thought about it is incumbent on you in every case handled on its own merits to determine why you pick one and ignore another according to ii tim all scripture is inspired by god and is profitable for teaching reproof correction and training in righteousness thus i believe that even though we gentile christians are not under the law we can learn from studying it if a certain action is defined as a sin because it is a violation of the law then it is a sin only for those who are under the law for example in the case of sabbath keeping where god reveals that certain actions are abominations even for those who are not under the law then i conclude that god s objection to the practice is not based on whether or not a person is under the law but on the sinfulness of the act itself in the case of homosexuality homosexual intercourse is defined by god as a defiling abomination for gentiles as well as jews i e for those who are not under the law as well as for those who are thus i am not at all trying to say that gentile christians have any obligation to keep any part of the law i am simply saying that god referred to homosexuality as a sin even for those who are not obligated to keep the law if this is so then i do not think we can appeal to our exemption from the law as valid grounds for legitimizing a practice god has declared a bloodguilty abomination that defiles both jew and gentile continued in part mark
soc.religion.christian	re sj mercury s reference to fundamentali in article may athos rutgers edu dan ingres com a rose arose writes raised in oakland and san lorenzo by strict fundamentalist christian parents mason was beaten as a child were the san jose mercury news to come out with an article starting with raised in oakland by mexican parents mason was beaten my face would perhaps because there is a connection here that is not there in the mexican variant you bring up this is true the statement didn t say anything about christians in general it specifically said strict fundamentalist christians it reflects a common perception that people have about fundamentalists being strict disciplinarians whether or not this perception is justified is another issue the other reading is that they are distinguishing between strict and relaxed fundamentalists clh
soc.religion.christian	re mormon temples in article may athos rutgers edu shellgate llo uu psi com larry l overacker writes early in church history the catechumens were dismissed prior to the celebration of the eucharist it was secret giving rise to the rumors that christians i have no problem with the idea that catechumens be dismissed before the eucharist they were not considered qualified to participate were cannibals and all sorts of perverse claims the actions were considered too holy to be observed by non christians as well as potentially dangerous for the individual christian who might be identified does the dismissal in the early church mean that the eucharist was a secret i mean was it you don t have to stay from now on only the membership can participate you really don t have to hang around yes i know you re obliged to keep up attendance to qualify but now is an exception okay or was it you may not stay what happens next is secret when we have had reason to conduct business meetings after church we ve made it clear that only members can vote but we ve always been happy for non members to stay and observe do you have evidence for intentional secrecy other than rumours which will always happen when you have an underclass doing things not approved of by those in power christopher
soc.religion.christian	re christianity in crisis by hank hanegraaff in article may athos rutgers edu af yfn ysu edu frank decenso jr writes has anyone read this important book if so what are your feelings about it i have not yet read the book though i intend to judging from the promos i hear constantly on the radio it sounds good in john macarthur s charismatic chaos series and the book he talks about much of the same things the health wealth and prosperity thing is a very real part and very prominent of tv religion every time i turn to tbn there s paul crouch showing off his new building talking about it s a sin to be poor and unhealthy gr
soc.religion.christian	christian homosexuality part of this is a continuation of an earlier post mls panix com michael siemon writes for those christians who do think that some parts of leviticus can be law for christians while others are not even to be thought about it is incumbent on you in every case handled on its own merits to determine why you pick one and ignore another i frankly think the whole effort misguided reread paul no doubt i am free to do anything but christians have a criterion to use for making our judgments on this the great commandment of love for god and neighbor if you cannot go through leviticus and decide each command there on that basis then your own arbitrary selection from it is simply idiosyncracy in this context it is remarkably offensive to say i notice that the verse forbidding bestiality immediately follows the verse prohibiting what appears to be homosexual intercourse i am sorry you found this offensive it was not my intent to offend i was leading up to another point which i discuss in more detail below well la ti da so what this is almost as slimey an argument as the one that homosexuality rape i know of no one who argues seriously though one can always find jokers in defense of bestiality it is absolutely irrelevant and incomparable to the issues gay christians do raise which concern sexual activity within committed consensual human adult realtionships so that your bringing it up is no more relevant than the laws of kashrut if you cannot address the actual issues you are being bloody dishonest in trailing this red herring in front of the world if you want to address bestiality that is your business not mine and attempting to torpedo a serious issue by using what is in our culture a ridiculous joke shows that you have no interest in hearing us as human beings you want to dismiss us and use the sleaziest means you can think of to do so i can see you have a revulsion for bestiality that far exceeds my distaste for homosexuality certainly if i spoke about homosexuality the way you speak of bestiality nobody would have any trouble labelling me a homophobe let me ask this gently why are you so judgemental of other people s sexual preferences what happened to no doubt i am free to do anything i think you have a serious double standard here when you describe a comparison between homosexuality and bestiality as slimey and sleazy you are making an implicit judgement that bestiality is perverted sinful disgusting unnatural in short all the things that society once thought about homosexuality not all people share your view you claim not to know any sincere zoophiles but this does not mean that they do not exist they even have their own newsgroup alt sex bestiality are you going to accuse them all of being mere jokers i notice you deleted the main point of my comment the fact that the only biblical condemnations of bestiality occur in connection with the levitical prohibitions against homosexuality while there are some new testament passages that can arguably be taken as condemning homosexuality there are none that condemn bestiality one of your main points seems to be that christian homosexuality is acceptable due to the lack of any clear new testament statements against it if this is a valid argument then should not christian zoophilia be made that much more acceptable by the fact that the new testament makes no reference clear or unclear to the subject at all i am quite serious here if i am going to accept homosexuality as biblically acceptable on the basis of your arguments then i am going to be fair and apply the same standards to everyone else s declared sexual preferences as well if the arguments you make for homosexuality can be applied to other sexual preferences as well i m going to apply them and see what comes up i m not trying to torpedo a serious issue by using what you label a ridiculous joke i posted a question about how we should interpret biblical guidelines for christian sexuality and i don t think such a question is irrelevant in a group called soc religion christian the bible discusses homosexuality and bestiality together in the same context and therefore i feel i have a good precedent for doing the same jesus and paul both expound very explictly and in considerable length the central linch pin of christian moral thought we are required to love one another and all else depends on that gay and lesbian christ ians challenge you to address the issue on those terms and all we get in return are cheap debate tricks attempting to side track the issues i don t know whether it makes any difference but for the record this is not a side issue for me i believe loving one another includes not encouraging people to defile themselves therefore it is of high importance to determine whether god regards certain sexual acts as defiling i can read in the new testament that god has joined together heterosexual couples and that the marriage bed is undefiled i can read in the old testament that homosexual intercourse and bestiality defile a person whether or not that person is under the law if gay christians can validly put aside the old testament standards of defilement then i want to know so that i can fairly apply it to all the sexual practices that defiled a person in the old days i don t think it s right to take just bits and pieces of the law and try and apply them to christians today e g bestiality still defiles you but homosexuality doesn t that was pretty much what you said earlier right you used different examples but i think you said essentially the same thing about it being wrong to apply only certain parts of the law to christians christians no doubt very sincere ones keep showing up here and in every corner of usenet and the world and all they ever do is spout these same old verses which they obviously have never thought about maybe never even read in total ignorance of the issues raised slandering us with the vilest charges of child abuse or whatever their perfervid minds can manage to conjure up tossing out red herrings with they suppose great emotional force to cause readers to dismiss our witness without even taking the trouble to find out what it is it was not my intent to stir up such an emotional reaction i personally don t get all that upset discussing alternatives to the monogamous heterosexual orientation i m afraid i naively assumed that others would have a similar attitude please note that i have never intended to equate homosexuality with child abuse i have merely noted that for all the lack of clear nt condemnation of homosexuality there is an even greater lack of nt condemnation or even mention of bestiality a practice which a number of people e g on alt sex bestiality consider to be their true sexual orientation such behavior should shame anyone who claims to have seen truth in christ why for god s precious sake do you people quote irrelevant verses to condemn people you don t know and won t even take the trouble to listen to before you start your condemnations is that loving your neighbor god forbid is that how you obey the repeated commands to not judge or condemn others christ and paul spend orders of magnitude more time in insisting on this than the half dozen obscure words in paul that you are so bloody ready to take as license to do what god tells you not to do why for god s sake quote from john ff omitted for brevity this is an excellent question and i pray that you will not treat it as a mere rhetorical question but will genuinely seek to discover and understand the answer i recommend you begin with a little introspection into why you yourself have much the same attitude towards zoophilia why do you find bestiality so repugnant that you regard it as slanderous to even mention in connection with other alternative sexual orientations why do you not apply all the same verses about love and tolerance to zoophiles the way you apply them to homosexuals is it because you automatically experience a subjective feeling of revulsion at the thought a lot of people have the same experience at the thought of homosexual intercourse is it because you regard the practice as socially unacceptable a lot of people regard homosexuality as socially unacceptable do you feel that it violates the traditional judeo christian standard of sexual morality many people feel that homosexuality does do you feel the bible condemns it many people think the bible says more to condemn homosexuality than it does to condemn bestiality why then do you think comparing bestiality with homosexuality is insulting to homosexuality if you can honestly answer this question you will have come a long way towards understanding why many people feel the same way about homosexuality as you feel about bestiality also please note that i am not in any sense condemning people i am merely pointing out that when i read the bible i see certain sexual practices that the bible appears to condemn e g sex outside of marriage when i say i think adultery and pre marital sex are sinful do you take that as me failing to love my neighbor when you treat bestiality as something disgusting and unmentionable are you disobeying repeated orders not to judge or condemn others when you say other christians are guilty of sinning by condemning you and judging you are you by that accusation making yourself guilty of the same offense or are you and i both simply taking note about practices the bible brands as sinful and leaving the judgement of the people up to god for long ages we many of us have been confused by evil counsel from evil men and told that if we came to the light we would be shamed and rejected some of us despaired and took to courses that probably do show a sinful shunning of god s light blessed are those whose spirits have been crushed by the self righteous they shall be justified however we have seen the truth and the truth is the light of humanity and we now know that it is not we who fear the light but our enemies who fear the light of our witness and will do everything they can to shadow it with the darkness of false witness against us michael l siemon i say you are gods sons of the mls panix com most high all of you nevertheless or you shall die like men and fall mls ulysses att com like any prince psalm i m not sure what you mean by the above two paragraphs if you mean that jesus is the truth and that he accepts sinners and does not reject them then i agree if we were not sinners then we would not need a savior our salvation in christ however does not mean that sin is now irrelevant for us and we can now do whatever we want nor does christ s grace mean that those who refer to sin as sin are being judgemental or intolerant i am speaking in general terms here not specifically about homosexuality if the bible calls something sin then it is not unreasonable for christians to call it sin too as applied to christian homosexuality i think the only definitive authority on christian sexuality is the bible if you make a list of everything the bible says on the subject of homosexual intercourse i think you will find that every verse on the list is negative and condemning at worst and unclear at best the most pro gay statement you could make about the list is that there is some dispute about the new testament verses which many people interpret as condemning homosexual intercourse that is from a gay perspective the most positive thing you can say about the bible s treatment of homosexuality is that some verses fail to clearly condemn it that s it jesus declared all foods clean the council at jerusalem declared that gentiles were not required to keep the ritual law but nobody ever reclassified homosexual intercourse from being an abomination deserving of death to being an accepted christian practice you have verses describing homosexual intercourse as an abomination that defiles both jews under the law and gentiles not under the law and you have some verses which are at best not clear but which some people believe are clear in their condemnation of homosexual behavior and that s the sum total of what the bible says about same sex intercourse i can appreciate from personal experience your desire to have everything simple cut and dried black and white what i want is ok and those who oppose me are wicked however i do not think the bible makes your case as definitively as you would like it to in fact i don t believe it says anything positive about your case at all yes i know the verses about loving one another and not judging one another but that s not really the issue is it you know and admit that there are still things that are sinful for christians to do since you say it is wrong for christians to condemn you therefore the issue is whether the bible says homosexual intercourse is a sin even if you do challenge the clarity of the new testament verses you are still left with the fact that the only thing the bible does say clearly about homosexual intercourse is that it is an abomination that defiles both those who are under the law and those who are not mark actually i don t think the reaction to the comparision with bestiality is based on bestialophobia i think what he regards as slimey is the rhetorical approach of connecting homosexuality and bestiality most people who accept homosexuality take a radical approach to the law they regard all of lev as not binding on christians the argument is that there s no way in the text to separate bestiality homosexuality and wearing mixed fabrics this does not mean that such people have no limits on their conduct nor does it mean that they accept bestiality it simply means that their sexual ethics does not come from the law and particularly not from lev clh
soc.religion.christian	david rapier s hebrew quiz software is anybody using david rapier s hebrew quiz software and can tell me how to space when typing in the hebrew space bar doesn t work for me anyway email please thanks ken miner kuhub cc ukans edu opinions are my own
soc.religion.christian	presentation package for preaching hi what presentation package would you recommend for a bible teacher i ve checked out harwards graphics for windows i think its more suitable for sales people than for preachers or bible teachers to present an outline of a message i m looking for one that is great for overhead projector slides has or imports clip arts works with word for windows or imports word for windows files works with inkjet printers if you know of any that meets part or all of the above please let me know please email your response as i don t keep up with the newsgroup thanking you in advance james
soc.religion.christian	re catholic doctrine of predestination in article may geneva rutgers edu creps lateran ucs indiana edu stephen a creps writes in article may athos rutgers edu noye midway uchicago edu writes the catholic doctrine of predestination does not exclude free will in any way since god knows everything he therefore knows everything that is going to happen to us we have free will and are able to change what happens to us however since god knows everything he knows all the choices we will make in advance god is not subject to time too often arguments pit predestination against free will we believe in both curiously enough this subject has occupied a good bit of my prayer life recently god s experience of time is so completely different from our own since he is both within and without it using words like foreknowledge and predestination are semantically incorrect when it comes to describing god s perception of our action because for god the beginning living and ending of our lives are all the same sort of for god there is no before when he did not know so he could not have foreknowledge of our lives or a time when he could have predestined our actions in fact since our understanding of things is so tied to our linear experience of time i would say that it is impossible for us to understand completely how our free will interacts with god s control of the universe tom ault
soc.religion.christian	re mary s assumption when elizabeth greeted mary elizabeth said something to the effect that mary out of all women was blessed if so it appears that this exactly places mary beyond the sanctification of normal humanity i remember a couple of times when my ex girlfriend said that she thought she was blessed because of her son whom she loved dearly in fact i ve heard people refer to someone as being blessed quite a few times it s a common figure of speech considering that elizabeth was just another human i think this passage offers nothing towards justifying the blessedness of mary
soc.religion.christian	re incarnation two minds of christ in article may geneva rutgers edu tedr athena cs uga edu ted kalivoda writes nabil wrote both families agree that he who wills and acts is always the one hypostasis of the logos incarnate marhaba nabil if we posit two minds in christ the mind of the logos and the mind of the human jesus then we must admit two wills a mind is not a mind without a will i know this has been dealt with in past church prnouncements but there is a philosophical problem here that should examined t v morris argued that the incarnation can be seen like this mind of logos here the mind of jesus is circumsribed by god the human son god the son has complete access to the human mind mind but the human mind only has access to the mind of god the son when the son allows access this explains why jesus said even he did not know the time of the kingdom the ideas of a completely healthy version of split personality from the field of psychology and the intriguing ideas of being in a dream seeing yourself acting knowing that is you but also being omniscient i ve explained it here before if you want the full document ask me by mail rex questions arise as we begin to think about logos and what his inner consciousness was composed of we need to clarify the two natures of christ briefly the divine nature which has existed eternally did not undertake any essential changes during the incarnation which would cause a conflict with the attributes of god the foremost of these being his immutability this would mean that it remained impassable that is incapable of suffering and death free from ignorance and insusceptible to weakness and temptation in the realm of the divine nature it is better to say that the son of god became that which was not absolute and in himself the result of the incarnation was that the divine logos could be ignorant and weak could be tempted and suffer and die not in his divine nature but by the derivation of his possession of a human nature this would mean that both the properties of the divine nature and the human nature are properties of the person and therefore ascribed to the person by this reason we can say that the person can be omnipotent omniscient and omnipresent yet at the same time be also a man of limited power knowledge a man of sorrows subject to human wants and miseries there is however no penetration of one nature into the other deity can no more share the imperfections of humanity than humanity can share in the essential perfection of the godhead we are not to assume that there is a double personality due to the possession of the double natures christ s human nature is impersonal in that it attains self consciousness and self determination in the personality of the god man we must now differentiate between the person and the nature of the man nature is defined the distinguishing qualities or properties of something the fundamental character disposition or temperament of a living being innate and unchangeable nature is then in essence the substance possessed in common in as such the trinity have one nature there is also a common nature of mankind personality on the other hand is the separate subsistence of nature with the power of consciousness and will it is for this reason that the human nature of christ has not nor ever had a separate subsistence that it is impersonal logos the god man represents the principle of personality it is equally important to see that self consciousness and self determination do not as such belong to the nature it is for this reason that we can justifiably say that jesus did not have two consciousness or two wills but rather one it is theanthropic an activity of the one personality which unites in itself the human and the divine natures being that neither the consciousness nor the will are simply human or simply divine the quotation given above is not identified and it s not entirely clear to me what position loren is taking on it just for clarity let me note that the view expressed in it is one of the classic christological heresies monothelitism that s the position that christ s two natures were not complete in that there was only one will in most cases which i think includes this example it was the human will that was regarded as missing normally people who talk about christ s human nature as being impersonal mean it in a somewhat more abstract sense that is they are using person as hypostatis not in the usual english sense of personality in this use the doctrine is called anhypostasia personally i think anhypostasia is just a more sophisticated way of denying that the logos took on humanity fully however it has never been formally ruled a heresy and in fact has been held by influential theologians both ancient and modern e g athanasius but the quotation above appears to be going farther than even athanasius went into the realm of the overtly heretical clh
soc.religion.christian	arsenokoitai scroggs cont dr james deyoung r scroggs robin scroggs has built upon the discussion of his predecessors and suggested a new twist to the word scroggs believes that arsenokoitai is a hellenistic jewish coinage perhaps influenced by awareness of rabbinic terminology the term is derived from lev where the lxx juxtaposes the two words arsenos male and koiten bed and represents the hebrew miskab zabar lying with a male yet he believes that paul did not originate the term but borrowed it from circles of hellenistic jews acquainted with rabbinic discussions n it was invented to avoid contact with the usual greek terminology if this is true scroggs observes it explains why the word does not appear in greco roman discussions of pederasty and why later patristic writers avoided it it was meaningless to native speaking greeks scroggs takes the second part as the active word and the first word as the object of the second part thus differing from boswell s learned discussion yet scroggs understands the general meaning of one who lies with a male to have a very narrow reference with the preceding malokoi i cor which scroggs interprets as the effeminate call boy arsenokoitai is the active partner who keeps the malakos of the mistress or who hires him on occasion to satisfy his sexual desires hence arsenokoitai does not refer to homosexuality in general to female homosexuality or to the generic model of pederasty it certainly cannot refer to the modern gay model he affirms this is scrogg s interpretation of the term in i tim also the combination of pornoi fornicators arsenokoitai and andrapodistai slave dealers refers to male prostitutes males who lie with them and slave dealers who procure them it again refers to that specific form of pederasty which consisted of the enslaving of boys as youths for sexual purposes and the use of these boys by adult males even serious minded pagan authors condemned this form of pederasty he then uses these instances of arsenokoitai in i cor and i tim to interpret the apparently general condemnation of both female and male homosexuality in rom consequently paul must have had could only have had pederasty in mind we cannot know what paul would have said about the contemporary model of adult adult mutuality in same sex relation ships in relating these terms to the context and to contemporary ethical concerns scroggs emphasizes the point that the specific items in the list of vices in i cor have no deliberate intended meaning in paul the form and function of the catalogue of vices are traditional and stereotyped any relationship between an individual item in the list and the context was usually nonexistent he concludes that paul does not care about any specific item in the lists both on the basis of the meaning of the terms and of the literary phenomenon of a catalogue of vices scroggs argues that the scriptures are irrelevant and provide no help in the heated debate today the model in today s christian homosexual community is so different from the model attacked by the nt that biblical judgments against homosexuality are not relevant to today s debate they should no longer be used in denominational discussions about homosexuality should in no way be a weapon to justify refusal of ordination reactions to the new interpretations of arsenokoitai d wright in more recent years the positions of bailey boswell and scroggs have come under closer scrutiny perhaps the most critical evaluation of boswell s view is that by david wright in his thorough article wright points out several shortcomings of boswell s treatment of arsenokoitai he faults boswell for failing to cite or citing inaccurately all the references to lev and in the church fathers such as eusebius the apostolic constitutions clement of alexandria tertullian and origen boswell has not considered seriously enough the possibility that the term derives either its form or its meaning from the leviticus passages this is significant for if the term is so derived it clearly refutes boswell s claim that the first half of the word arseno denotes not the object but the gender of the second half koitai the lxx must mean a male who sleeps with a male making arseno the object wright also faults boswell s claims regarding linguistic features of the term including suggested parallels though boswell claims that compounds with arseno employ it objectively and those with arreno employ it as an adjective wright believes that the difference between the two is merely one of dialectical diversity no semantic import attaches to the difference between the two forms wright believes that in most compounds in which the second half is a verb or has a verbal force the first half denotes its object and where the second part is substantival the first half denotes its gender it is with boswell s treatment of the early church fathers that wright takes special issue because the former has failed to cite all the sources for example aristides apology c ad probably uses arrenomaneis androbaten and arsenokoitias all with the same basic meaning of male homosexuality contrary to boswell s discussion boswell fails to cite hippolytus refut omn haer and improperly cites eusebius and the syriac writer bardensanes the latter uses syriac terms that are identical to the syriac of i cor and i tim next wright shows how the early church fathers use arsenokoitai in parallel with paidophthoria referring to male homosexuality with teenagers the dominant form of male homosexuality among the greeks sometimes this parallelism occurs in the threefold listings of moicheia adultery porneia fornication and paidophthoria with arsenokoitai replacing paidophthoris clement of alexandria in protr cites the second table of the ten commandments as you shall not kill ou moicheuseis you shall not commit adultery ou paidophthoreseis you shall not practice homosexuality with boys you shall not steal n another occurrence of arsenokoitein commit homosexuality exists in the sibylline oracles it may be wright observes that the word was coined by a jewish pre christian writer in a hellenistic setting represented by or sib book wright also discusses uses of arsenokoitai in rhetorius th c who drew upon the first century ad writer teucer in macarius th th c and in john the faster d the last in particular bears the idea of homosexual intercourse contrary to boswell wright next replies to boswell s contention that the term would not be absent from so much literature about homosexuality if that is what it denoted wright points out that it should not be expected in writers prior to the first century ad since it did not exist before then that the greeks used dozens of words and phrases to refer to homosexuality that some sources e g didache show no acquaintance with paul s letters or deliberately avoid citing scripture and that boswell neglects citing several church fathers boswell s treatment of chrysostom in particular draws wright s attention boswell conspicuously misrepresents the witness of chrysostom omitting references and asserting what is patently untrue chrysostom gives a long uncompromising and clear indictment of homosexuality in his homily on rom boswell has exaggerated chrysostom s infrequent use of the term wright observes that boswell has signally failed to demonstrate any us of arsenokoites etc in which it patently does not denote male homosexual activity it is infrequent because of its relatively technical nature and the availability of such a term as paidophthoria that more clearly specified the prevailing form of male homosexuality in the greco roman world wright also surveys the latin syriac and coptic translations of i tim and i cor all three render arsenokoitai with words that reflect the meaning homosexual i e they understand arseno as the object of the second half of the word none of these primary versions supports boswell s limited conclusion based on them wright concludes his discussion with a few observations about the catalogues of vices as a literary form he believes that such lists developed in late judaism as hellenistic jews wrote in clear condemnation of homosexuality in the greek world this paralleled the increased concern on the part of moral philosophers over homosexual indulgence the term came into being under the influence of the lxx so that writers spoke generally of male activity with males rather than specifically categorized male sexual engagement with paides if arsenokoitai and paidophthoria were interchangeable it is because the former encompassed the latter in summary wright seeks to show that arsenokoitai is a broad term meaning homosexuality and arises with judaism the views of boswell scroggs and others who limit the term to active male prostitutes or pederasty are without significant support from linguistic and historical studies next the questioning of wrights position by william peterson after that we get into the good stuff of historical linguistic studies this will include symposium by plato if there is any doubt as to the modern understanding of homosexuality being understood or contemmplated at the time of paul this will certainly clear things up also we will review paul s use of lev in the nt and how as for him the law was fulfilled but not done away with lev was the universal and the following chapters the general those who put forth that the ot no longer holds true today in our culture should stick around for this one r scroggs the new testament and homosexuality phil independently we came to the same conclusion apparently the connection is made in e a sophocles greek lexicon of the roman byzantine periods from bc to ad see discussion he says the same thing about paul s language in rom but this is doubtful see the more cautious words of p zaas i cor ff was homosexuality condoned in the corinthian church sblasp he observes that the words moixai malakoi and arsenokoitai were part of jewish anti gentile polemic yet paul s wors at the end of the vice list and such were some of you indicate that paul is addressing real or potential abuses of his ethical message not citing primitive tradition by rote wright disputes zaas attempt to associate the term with idolatry on boswell s treatment of rom the article by r b hays relations natural and unnatural a response to john boswell s exegesis of romans jre spring is an excellent critique d f wright homosexuals or prostitutes the meaning of arsenokoitai i cor i tim vc in an unpublished paper henry mendell arsenokoitai boswell on paul effectively refutres boswell s claims regarding the philology of arsenokoitai he finds the meaning to be general a male who has sex with a male wright s endnotes list additional sources in the church fathers we also have noticed the same tendency by boswell to fail to cite all the references to sodom and sodomy in the apocrypha and pseudepigrapha see j b deyoung a critique of prohomosexual interpretations of the ot apocrypha and pseudepigrapha bsac in light of the claim made by boswell that the infrequency of arsenokoitai points to a meaning lacking homosexual significance wright asks pertinently why neither philo nor josephus use paidofthoria nor josephus paiderastia and why clement did not use the latter and chrysostom the former n in a more recent article homosexuality the relevance of the bible evq wright reiterates these same points paul shows a remarkable originality in extending the ot ethic to the church
soc.religion.christian	re mary s assumption david bernard central sun com dave bernard writes i also don t see the necessity of saying the holy parents were some how sanctified beyond normal humanity it sounds like our own inability to grasp the immensity of god s grace in being incarnated through an or dinary human being when elizabeth greeted mary elizabeth said something to the effect that mary out of all women was blessed if so it appears that this exactly places mary beyond whoa dude i don t see the jump you made she was blessed i ll give you that much what do you mean she was placed beyond the sanctification of normal humanity mohammad r khan khan nova gmi edu after july please send mail to mkhan nyx cs du edu if responses to this letter post bounce e mail me at the nyx account
soc.religion.christian	re catholic doctrine of predestination from article may geneva rutgers edu by creps lateran ucs indiana edu stephen a creps the catholic doctrine of predestination does not exclude free will in any way since god knows everything he therefore knows everything that is going to happen to us we have free will and are able to change what happens to us however since god knows everything he knows all the choices we will make in advance god is not subject to time too often arguments pit predestination against free will we believe in both just a little issue of semantics would it not be better then to call it pre determination rrrrr oo bbbbb r r oo oo b b r r oo oo b bb robert pomeroy r rr o o b b rrrr o o bbbbb u i keele ac uk r r o o b b r r oo oo b bb r r oo oo b b r r oo bbbbb my address during hawthorns hall keele staffordshire st ae england term time jn x
soc.religion.christian	re catholic doctrine of predestination stephen a creps writes the catholic doctrine of predestination does not exclude free will in any way since god knows everything he therefore knows everything that is going to happen to us we have free will and are able to change what happens to us however since god knows everything he knows all the choices we will make in advance god is not subject to time too often arguments pit predestination against free will we believe in both that last sentence of steve s is an important one to remember there are certain things in the catholic religion that cannot be completely comprehended by a human being were this not the case it would be good evidence that the religion was man made in the case of predestination you have to reconcile two things that would at first appear to be irreconcilable the sovereignty of god s will over all things and man s free will in deciding his own fate catholics believe in both but that doesn t mean that anyone has come up with a pat reconciliation i have often thought that goedel s famous theorem has applicability to catholic dogma at least in an analogous sense there are things that are true that cannot be proved god s intellect is far above ours there are many truths that we will never be able to understand
soc.religion.christian	mary blessed among women dave bernard writes when elizabeth greeted mary with the words blessed art thou among women luke it appears that this places mary beyond the sanctification of normal humanity but deborah says judges blessed among women shall be jael the wife of heber the kenite blessed above all women in the tents it can doubtless be taken that jael s slaying of sisera was a type of mary s victory over sin but even if we take deborah s words as applying prophetically or symbolically to mary they must still be applicable literally to jael we may well take them to mean that god used her as a part of his plan for the deliverance of his people and that she has this in common with mary but we have no reason to suppose that they mean that she was sinless and thus no reason to take the like expression applied to mary as proof that she was sinless yours james kiefer
soc.religion.christian	relevant subject lines a recent post bears the subject line re serbian genocide work of god the text contains lines devoted to a defence of the doctrine of predestination as applied to the salvation of individuals there is then a five line post script on the balkans it is natural and easy to keep the subject line of the post that one is replying to but when the focus shifts keeping the same subject can cause confusion this is intended as a general request the post mentioned is just the handiest example yours james kiefer
soc.religion.christian	re arsenokoitai nt meaning of meta exegesis conviction of sin part ii let me return to the question stipulating that paul meant his use of arseonkoitai to refer more or less exactly to the levitical prohibition of male male sex in order to bring out the problems most clearly i ll also stipulate what i think is far less plausible that paul coined the term for this usage the question i want to turn to is what that would mean for paul s readers and for later christians this should be shorter than my last note as we will see that this question rapidly confronts us with some of the major divisions within christ s body and i am not trying to open the gates for flames across any of the terrible chasms that separate any of us from our fellow christians my own biases loosely characterizable as liberal will be evident but i am not grinding an axe here so much as trying to get all parties to see that it may be hard to reach closure when the issues involved strike at the heart of what we each in our own different ways see as crucial to the gospel of christ so stipulating paul s intent the immediate question is how can his readers understand this intent and following on that question there is a second one what is our proper action if we do manage to understand him since paul gives not a single clue about his meaning in the text of st corinthians there are two positive answers and one negative to this question a paul or apollos or someone in the apostolic community has conveyed to the corinthians the then traditional jewish condem nation of homosexual behavior and paul expects them to be sufficiently well tutored by this tradition that he needs no futher explanation i should note that there is no evidence in the letter or in corinthians for such a supposition b the spirit will teach us what paul means or if not paul what god means behind paul s inspired word choice c we don t know and cannot guess to within any better pre cision here than for comparison in the parallel use by paul in the same passage of the word pleonektai those who have more if you think that areseonkoitai is obvious from its roots try cutting your teeth on this word the neb translates it as grabbers or even methusoi drunkards at least this has the advantage of being a common insult so that at least there is some hint as to its meaning the three positions more or less if i can be allowed some exaggeration for the sake of argument define a classical catholic attitude towards tradition one form of protestant sola scriptura and a liberal critical demand for evidence all three positions have strengths and weaknesses ad a it is unquestionable that the gospel was preached in and by the community of christ s disciples and their successors and that our nt scripture itself emerges from this communal tradition but it s also the case that we know little or nothing about this tradition until almost a century after paul which is to say that we have access to the tradition only after several generations of possibly confused transmission the scripture is itself our only documentation of the tradition in the critical era ad b if we are not born of water and spirit to revert to john in an attempt to explain paul then we have no more hope of under standing the gospel than nicodemus had neither the traditions of men nor the vain elevation of our own reason can prevent the spirit from blowing where it will the paraclete is a kamikaze but the downside of protestant belief in the efficacy of the spirit as our guide in scripture is that the wing of protestantism that takes this most seriously is also the most fragmented over divergent understanding supposedly derived from the clear word of god note classical lutheran calvinist and anglican thought constrains scripture to be read within tradition even while reserving judgment against tradition out of scripture the more bizarre forms of i will read scripture my way are primarily a fringe aspect of cultic protestantism the main problem with this approach is that there is apparently no means for one person to convey to another what that one may feel is teaching received from the spirit and history shows incredible conflict between christians on this point each in his own mind convinced that he is led by the spirit no one can seriously urge point b without some sense of its potential for setting christian against christian to what purpose ad c the critical approach has the distinct advantage that when it can reach a conclusion it can lay out the data in a way which is open to all the weakness is an obvious corollary this is not usually possible if i may say a word here out of my own already acknowledged bias one complaint against critical methodology is that it dissolves faith but surely a faith that cannot honestly face the evalu ation of evidence has problems which mere theology is helpless to address anyway there is a serious and unfortunate possibility of schism between liberal and conservative positions mostly on the basis of extreme zealots of positions b and c a catholic sense of authority and tradition tends to constrain arguments of b contra c to secondary position so that despite horrendous strains rome is not as likely to find these issues as ultimately divisive as the protestant world will and anglicans will i predict muddle through on the via media attempting to give each position its due but no more than its due second question suppose tradition tells us and lots of spiritual christians tell us and critical thought at least admits as possible that paul is refering to a flat universal levitical prohibition against male male sex what then again we can abdicate our personal responsi bility to tradition and let it dictate the answer but it s precisely where inherited traditions are not questioned that they re most dangerous we have examples of christ questioning the pharisees and their use of tradition despite his urging in matthew that we are to heed them we have examples of peter and more radically still paul jettisoning the traditions that they were led by the spirit to call into question jesus and peter and paul do not so much throw out tradition as subject it to radical criticism on a couple of very basic grounds the weightier demands of the law justice and mercy and good faith matthew and on these two commandments love god neighbor hand the whole law and the prophets also matthew if there is a fundamental because derived from christ validity in the challenge to some traditions a validity that led the first generation to go so far as to waive application of the torah to gentile converts vastly beyond anything that is directly deducible from jesus reported words and deeds it signifies to me a certain failure of the imagination to postulate that only the traditions that we have specific challenges against are in fact open to challenge all traditions passed through men are traditions of men that god may lead us even so that these traditions are a source of our spiritual instruction i will freely grant but tradition is inherently human and inherently corruptible and given the fall corrupt nothing in it is immune to challenge when the spirit shows us a failure in justice mercy and good faith nothing may ultimately stand unless it does follow from love of god and love of neighbor i am perfectly willing to grant that i could be blind to my own sin that the spirit may have taught another what she refuses to teach me or i am too dense to learn that tradition might have value here but what i know of tradition is that on one occasion some superstitious christians appealed to justinian after an earthquake in asia minor and scapegoated sodomites as the cause of the earthquake so that legislation was passed making homosexual behavior a capital offense if that is in accord with the gospel of christ then i am no christian that is human tradition at its most hateful and vicious and i see nothing all that much different in all the unbidden eruptions onto usenet of people who are quick to condemn but slow to understand if that is the leading of the spirit then i want no part of it but what i have found in obedience to the lord is that i am myself totally dependent on the witness of other christians for the truth that lives in the body of christ and i say to all who doubt that gay christianity is from god what gamaliel said to doubting pharisees who would have suppressed the earliest church be careful how you deal with these people if this enterprise this movement of theirs is of human origin it will break up of its own accord but if it does in fact come from god you will not only be unable to destroy them but you might find yourselves fighting against god acts all i ask is that you listen to your traditions and read your scriptures with a mind and soul open to the spirit and to the past history of our first christian witnesses willingness to challenge tradition and other readings of scripture though read with all the authority of scribes and rabbis and a submission to the declaration that all must depend on the love of god and neighbor then study the evidence learn the history of christians oppressing christians out of their traditions and eagerness to judge where jesus and paul tell us not to judge and let the witness of the spirit in the lives of your fellow christians including those who are not of your preference in theology guide you towards god s truth michael l siemon i say you are gods sons of the mls panix com most high all of you nevertheless or you shall die like men and fall mls ulysses att com like any prince psalm there s a certain ambiguity in your discussion of position a as to whether you re speaking of tradition in paul s time or ours i think there are two ways to use tradition one is to say that when paul and his readers share a tradition it makes sense to interpret his words in the context of that shared tradition that s what makes me think that these arguments over words turn out to be silly we know that paul came out of a background that was rather puritanical on sex everything else he says on sex is consistent with that background the tone of his remarks on homosexuality in rom is consistent with that background even if the words in the sin lists aren t the most general terms for homosexual activity and it seems to me that there s some evidence that they are not they are just one more piece of evidence for something we would probably be willing to believe with no evidence at all that paul shares the common jewish rejection of homosexuality but when you identify a with the catholic position that s rather a horse of a different color the catholic position involves a continuing church tradition arguments specific to that tradition might be we can get guidance on how to interpret paul s original meaning from tradition e g the way the church fathers interpreted him and we gain confidence that his prohibitions still apply in our time because of the universal judgement of the church between his time and ours i think this is a somewhat different use of tradition a radical protestant might be willing to use known st cent tradition to illuminate paul s original meaning but not use the catholic position to answer the question of what our own attitude to homosexuality should be clh
soc.religion.christian	daily verse dishonest money dwindles away but he who gathers money little by little makes it grow proverbs
soc.religion.christian	secret ceremonies was re mormon temples shellgate llo uu psi com larry l overacker writes in article may athos rutgers edu mserv mozart cc iup edu mail server writes i don t necessarily object to the secrecy but i do question it since i see no biblical reason why any aspect of christian worship should involve secrecy early in church history the catechumens were dismissed prior to the celebration of the eucharist it was secret giving rise to the rumors that christians were cannibals and all sorts of perverse claims the actions were considered too holy to be observed by non christians as well as potentially dangerous for the individual christian who might be identified larry overacker llo shell com sig deleted for brevity larry thanks for the reply but this isn t quite the same thing like i said before i can understand why non christians would be denied access to holy ceremonies but the ceremony itself communion was not secret in fact all four gospels record the first breaking of the bread in some detail communion was a fellowship meal and it was and still should be in my opinion inappropriate to invite those who did not share in the fellowship of the body of christ the fact that unbelievers denied access to these communal meals began to imagine all sorts of secret and debased rituals during communion does not by any means imply that the early christians were in fact hiding shameful things from the general public in fact i think if you read some of the early church fathers you will find that they were not at all bashful about describing what went on during communion that s why it seems funny to me when mormons who claim to be the only true restoration of st century christianity insist on hiding certain rituals on the grounds that they are too sacred mark actually that s not quite the case john omits the central elements of the last supper his gospel is full of symbolism of bread and wine but the actual story isn t there some people think he has omitted some of the details because they were not talked about in public in his community there is also evidence that some aspects of baptismal practice were kept secret see morton smith s secret gospel i don t agree with his lurid speculations on what the secret practices actually were but there does seem to be some evidence that mark omitted certain details because they were inappropriate for publication clh
soc.religion.christian	re satan kicked out of heaven biblical from article may athos rutgers edu by tas pegasus com len howard hi eddie many people believe the battle described in rev describes the casting out of satan from heaven and his fall to the earth shalom len howard also check out jude plus if you have a concordance handy check out all the references to stars these are generally taken to mean angels i believe
soc.religion.christian	re dreams and out of body incidents in article may athos rutgers edu alisonjw spider co uk alison j wyld writes from alisonjw spider co uk alison j wyld ps just to make it clear i don t do and have never tried oobes i tend to think they are off limits for christians why
soc.religion.christian	re what was the immaculate conception in article may athos rutgers edu seanna bnr ca seanna s m watson writes in article may athos rutgers edu jhpb sarto budd lake nj us joseph h buehler writes referring to mary she was immaculately conceived and so never subject to original sin but also never committed a personal sin in her whole life this was possible because of the special degree of grace granted to her by god i have quite a problem with the idea that mary never committed a sin was mary fully human if it is possible for god to miraculously make a person free of original sin and free of committing sin their whole life then what is the purpose of the incarnation of jesus why can t god just repeat the miracle done for mary to make all the rest of us sinless without the need for repentance and salvation and all that concept of mary s sinlessness seems to me to be at odds with the rest of christian doctrine as i understand it it s always a two way street god gave her the grace to avoid sin thus when she was visited by gabriel she gave her fiat her total acceptance of god s will this fiat summarizes why catholics regard her as the highest of all humans that god chose her and that she accepted knowing this in advance we extrapolate that she was neither stained by nor subject to original sin god did create us all miraculously free to choose or not choose to sin sufficient for the day is the evil thereof and the grace of god to command it this amount of grace was precisely determined by god to be the amount required to do what god asked of her the grace given to each of us is also enough but we do not always choose to accept it we also believe jesus was fully human and never sinned god could have created a much better person than myself one who always chose the right thing yet he created me instead despite my flaws he proves he loves me as i am continually drawing me towards perfection for whatever purpose he has for me he has confidence that i will accomplish it if i ask god to repeat his miraculous creation of the mother of his son where will that leave me joe moore
soc.religion.christian	harold camping have any of you read harold camping s book it s about biblical evidenc that points to september of as the probable time of christ s second coming it s a very informative book and a must read for all christians you can get i at your local bookstore for only peace no not again clh
soc.religion.christian	contradiction in mormonism there is a contradiction related to the moral issue of polygamy in the mormon writings in the book in the book of mormon called the book of jacob joseph smith wrote that it was an abomination to god for david and solomon to have many wives later when joseph smith wrote the doctrines and covenants possibly when polygamy was becoming an issue in his personal life he wrote that it was not an abomination for david to have many wives how do mormons answer this contradiction link hudson
soc.religion.christian	the imprecatory psalms paul fortmann submitted a sermon by peter hammond on praying for justice that spoke of the positive value of the imprecatory cursing psalms in this connection i recommend to the membership the book reflections on the psalms by c s lewis with special reference to the chapter on cursing in the psalms yours james kiefer
soc.religion.christian	re portland earthquake bill rea cctr cantua canterbury ac nz wrote his theology clashed with the theology of the local prophets it was out of a very deep understanding of the mosaic covenant and an actute awareness of international events that jeremiah spoke his prophesies the judgement prophesies were deeply loaded with theological meaning in my opinion both the portland earthquake prophesy and the david wilkerson new york will burn prophesy are froth and bubble compared to the majestic theological depths of the jeremiah prophesies perhaps one other thing i should have added is that jeremiah s prophesies about the coming destruction of jerusalem would have been understood by the people of that time to be a full frontal assault on their understanding of their relationship with the lord today the if the general populace hears prophesies like the portland earthquake or new york will burn ones they are unlikely to see it in the context of their relationship or lack of it with the lord they are far more likely to think that they are just the result of the fevered imaginations of a religious nutter that is one reason why i am always deep y suspicious of bald judgement prophesies without any explanation of the reasons for the judgement this doesn t have to be long winded to see a relatively modern example look at abraham lincoln s second inaugural speech the relevant section is below it is this type of spiritual insight which was missing in both prophesies posted here excerpt from abraham lincoln s nd inaugural speech both read the same bible and pray to the same god and each invokes his aid against the other it may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just god s assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men s faces but let us judge not that we be not judged the prayers of both could not he answered that of neither has been answered fully the almighty has his own purposes woe unto the world because of offences for it must needs be that offences come but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh if we shall suppose that american slavery is one of those offences which in the provdence of god must needs come but which having continued through his appointed time he now wills to remove and that he gives to both north and south this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offence came shall we discern therein an departure from those divine attribute which the believers in a living god always ascribe to him fondly do we hope fervently do we pray that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away yet if god wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bond man s two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword as was said three thousand years ago so still it must be said the judgments of the lord are true and righteous altogether with malice toward none with charity for all with firmness in the right as god gives us to see the right let us strive on to finish the work we are in to bind up the nation s wounds to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and a lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations bill rea o o w u w bill rea computer services centre e mail b rea csc canterbury ac nz university of canterbury or cctr csc canterbury ac nz christchurch new zealand phone fax
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity in may geneva rutgers edu noye midway uchicago edu vera shanti noyes writes in article may athos rutgers edu carlson ab larc nasa gov ann carlson writes bible verses ag used ag homosexuality deleted anyone who thinks being gay and christianity are not compatible should check out dignity integrity more light presbyterian churches affirmation mcc churches etc meet some gay christians find out who they are pray with them discuss scripture with them and only then form your opinion also check out the episcopal church although by no means all episcopalians are sympathetic to homosexual men and women there certainly is a fairly large percentage in my experience who are i am good friends with an episcopalian minister who is ordained and living in a monogamous homosexual relationship this in no way diminishes his ability to minister in fact he has a very significant ministry with the gay and lesbian association of his community as well as a very significant aids ministry this may sound argumentative but do the pro homosexual crowd give the same support to church members that are involved in incestuous relationships if we do a little substitution above we get although by no means all episcopalians are sympathetic to incestuous men and women there certainly is a fairly larget percentage in my experience who are i am good friends with an episcopalian minister who is ordained and living in a monogamous incestual relationship this in no way diminishes his ability to minister in fact he has a very significant ministry with the incest association of his community do the same standards apply if not why not and while we re in the ballpark what about bestiality i can t recall offhand if there are any direct statements in the bible regarding sex with animals does that activity have more or less a sanction please avoid responses such as you re taking this to extremes i would guess that a disproportionate percentage of the inerrant bible community views homosexual acts with distaste in the same manner that society at large views incest scott cokely scott cokely nb rockwell com they came for the davidians but i did not speak up because i was not a davidian then they came for me opinions expressed are mine and do not represent those of rockwell obviously you can replace homosexuality in the above statement by anything from murder to sleeping late that doesn t mean that the same people would accept those substitutions the question is whether the relationships involved do in fact form an appropriate vehicle to represent christ s relationship to humanity this is at least partly an empirical question in some cases types of human relationship have been rejected because over time they always seem to lead to trouble i think that s the case with slavery one can argue that in theory if you follow paul s guidelines it s possible to have christian slaveholders but in practice over a period of time most people came to the conclusion that nobody can really have that degree of control over another and not abuse it the message you were responding to was asking you to look at the results from christian communities that endorse homosexuality note christian homosexuals not people you see on the news advocating some extremist agenda you may not want to base your decision completely on that kind of observation but i would argue that it s at least relevant you can t answer the request by asking why you shouldn t look at the incest association because in fact there is no such association if there were it might be reasonable for you to look at it too of course that doesn t mean that the results of all such examinations would necessarily come out the same way part of why there aren t groups pushing all possible relaxed standards is that some of them do produce obviously bad results clh
soc.religion.christian	re satan kicked out of heaven biblical in article may athos rutgers edu tas pegasus com len howard writes hi eddie many people believe the battle described in rev describes the casting out of satan from heaven and his fall to the earth shalom len howard luke he that heareth you heareth me and he that despiseth you despiseth me and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me and the seventy returned again with joy saying lord even the devils are subject unto us through thy name and he said unto them i beheld satan as lightning fall from heaven if a prayer today is spoken please offer it up for me when the bridge to heaven is broken and you re lost on the wild wild seas lost on the wild wild sea
soc.religion.christian	re major views of the trinity in article may athos rutgers edu swf elsegundoca ncr com stan friesen wrote simply put i do not see any way that a platonic essence could have any real existance essence in the platonic sense does not have any referent as far as i can tell it is just an imaginary concept invented to provide an explanation for things better explained in other ways you are quite confident that essences do not exist how do propose to define beings can a thing can be one without definition can a being have a definition and know essence what about properties do beings have properties does god have properties does numbers exist in reality as abstract entities or do we invent them thus to me the unity of god must be primary and the triality must be secondary must be modal or aspectual relating to roles or to modes of interaction since otherwise there is no meaning to saying god is one see my post in alt messianic about the possibilities of tri theism from a phiolosophical point of view ted kalivoda tedr athena cs uga edu institute of higher education university of georgia athens ga
soc.religion.christian	daily verse now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers love one another deeply from the heart ipeter
soc.religion.christian	mary and idols i have been studying the bible now for about a year i love it but i am not very familiar with the different denominations or traditions or common beliefs of various christian groups i have heard various people outside this news group describe idols such as power money material possessions etc these things are worshiped in some sense i suppose but i never really gave idols much thought until now i have been reading the postings in this news group which i just found a few days ago and i have a question first i m not trying to question anyone s belief or try to push my views on anyone else i haven t been at this long enough to have any views other than i cannot get to heaven by being good i must understand that christ bore my sins on the cross so that i could be saved and i need to repent i e realize that every time i sin i might as well stick a sharp stick in christ s side because he took the punishment for my sins when he died on the cross in my studies mary never really comes up i know who she is but that s about it it seems to me that a statue of mary could be considered an idol do people pray to statues of mary it sounds like educated christians more educated than myself i m sure believe mary was sinless wow i hoped to spend the summer convincing myself one way or the other about tongues i m reading charismatic chaos i guess i ll study tongues in parallel with reading this news group any help you can give me will be appreciated i don t think the issue is so much that people are more educated than you though it may well be that they are as that they come from a different tradition than yours this is a discussion between catholics and protestants catholics generally believe that mary was sinless protestants do not the issue comes down to different sources of authority protestants generally limit themselves to the bible as a source of doctrine since this isn t in the bible except in passages that no one would understand in this way if they didn t already believe it protestants don t accept it catholics see continuing revelation through the church though they believe the results are consistent with the bible i interpret your posting not as a call for yet another argument about whether the catholic marian devotions are idolatry an argument i am not prepared to see newed here but as a sign of being interested in learning about traditions other than your own catholics are of course a major one but by no means the only one i generally consider the major traditions to be catholic orthodox and various subsets of protestantism within protestantism it s a matter of how finely you want to cut things these days i think the major division is between those who accept biblical inerrancy and those who don t there are also a number of major historical traditions but in recent decades distinctions are tending to blur i d identify the major protestant traditions as lutheran reformed anglican they re sort of halfway between catholic and protestant wesleyan baptist holiness pentecostal church of christ but there are a number of others historical distinctions tend not to be so important among the liberal churches anymore and i think current trends in society and the church are also tending to make conservatives seen themselves as allies from a general evangelical perspective but differences among these various traditions are still quite marked i think the best introduction to these issues is to read a good book on church history anyone who wants to understand the church really needs to understand how we got where we are now a church history will normally show you where each of these traditions came from and give a feeling for their nature unfortunately i m away from my library at the moment so i don t have anything specific to recommend clh
soc.religion.christian	resume i m about to revise my resume and was wondering if i should put on there the fact that i m a christian give me some input on what you think jimmy buddenberg ccjim vax cns muskingum edu student systems analyst muskingum college
soc.religion.christian	acta sanctorum in english does anyone know whether the acta sanctorum the huge multi volume collection of roman catholic hagiography produced by the bollandists has ever been translated into english i m working on the vita s dympnae and would love to be able to check my own translation against somebody else s email replies preferred unless this query turns out to be of general interest liz broadwell ebroadwe mail sas upenn edu department of english ad majorem dei gloriam the university of pennsylvania
soc.religion.christian	pastortalk pastortalk a weekly dialogue with a local pastor on the news of the day by carl gene wilkes startext mc compuserve internet compuserve com this week s thoughts last week the supreme court refused without comment to hear an appeal by rensselaer in school officials desiring the distribution of bibles in their public schools rel a lower court had banned the local gideons an international bible distribution group from passing out bibles to fifth graders the aclu s barry lynn was quoted as saying that the court s action protected the religious neutrality of our public schools he also said that schools must serve students of all faiths and none schools were not to be a bazaar where rival religious groups compete for converts according to lynn several gideons men who are responsible for putting bibles in hospitals and hotels are members of our church they tell of similar stories where they are only allowed to distribute bibles on sidewalks around the schools but cannot go inside the schools they tell of mild harassment by parents who do not want their children receiving a bible from a stranger they are willing to continue their work at a distance but find the school s position somewhat disheartening i understand rationally and logically the court s position and i can see the sense of fairness for all groups but on the other hand when does neutrality become nihilism when does plurality turn into no position at all i see a couple of ironies here one is that we can pass out condoms but not bibles in our schools think on that one for a moment the other is that while we are seeking religious neutrality in our schools countries like russia who by the way practiced religious neutrality for the past seventy years are making the bible part of their public school curriculum when i was in st petersburg in march the church we worked with had trained over public school teachers to teach the bible and the government had requested hundreds more i recently heard a medical doctor who is president of the gideon chapter in moscow tell how they are eagerly invited to the university of moscow to distribute bibles to the students and are given class time to explain its contents i remember seeing a photograph of this doctor holding a bible and speaking to the university students standing under a statue of lenin now that s ironic i admit two things we are a pluralistic society and all faiths have equal footing this is what our country was founded on to allow every group on school grounds could create a bazaar like atmosphere each city must work to be inclusive of all religions and provide a hearing for them i know i said two the vitality of religious faith is not dependent upon whether or not the public arena acknowledges it as valid however and you knew this was coming i believe disallowing the distribution of the bible by law abiding caring adults in our schools only signals once again our culture s movement away from a singular base from which we as individuals and as a nation can make moral and ethical decisions what do you think mail box let me know if you do not want me to print your letter or your name good column re time coverstory about teen sexuality i agree with moral education from home but some homes don t have the kinds of morals i want taught one family i worked with smoked dope as their primary family activity another acted like incest was ok families no matter where they are are often a lot sicker than we d like to believe from john hightower mc john i agree that the home ain t what it used to be and some homes are not the place to learn value based sexuality i still believe that this is where the church can come into play i know those families you speak of may not come to a church to seek information but the help does not need to be in a church building i believe that the youth from the families you mentioned will probably disregard the value free information at school too writer s note the views of this column do not necessarily reflect the views of members of or the church legacy drive baptist church plano tx
soc.religion.christian	what do we feel i see a parallel between what i will stupidly call the homosexual issue and the atheist issue please take no offense at these comparisons the homosexual feels things that i admit i do not feel he learns that these feelings are classified as homosexual feelings and learns of a model of sexuality that seems to apply to his feelings which he then can fit with his experiences that is this model gives him a sense of understanding his situation models that do not match up with what he knows he feels will be discarded however one wonders if once accepting the idea of his being gay and deciding what exactly that means he will analyze all his feelings and experiences based on the definition he has already accepted which of course validates his model if that was hard to understand now listen to my parallel the christian feels things that an atheist claims he does not feel the christian accepts the christian theology as the true description of what his feelings mean once accepting this model he interprets his experiences with regards to this model which of course validates his christianity as a reminder i am a christian a catholic i don t hate homosexuals or atheists but am just trying to understand them i only compare them because they are both so foreign to me am i as blind to the homosexual as the atheist seems blind to me or am i as prejudiced against atheistic denial of religious experience as the homosexual is prejudiced against attempts by society to deny his sexuality or am i just out to lunch again chris mussack
soc.religion.christian	re st maria goretti after reading this story about st maria goretti posted two weeks ago i am a bit confused while it is clear that her daily life is one of probity and sanctity i am afraid i don t quite understand the final episode of her life i am reading it correctly she and the church apparently felt that being raped was a sin on her part one so perfidious that she would rather die than commit it if this is the case i m afraid that i disagree rather strongly can anyone out there explain this one to me yours in christ david cruz uribe sfo
soc.religion.christian	re satan kicked out of heaven biblical in may athos rutgers edu tas pegasus com len howard writes i have a question about satan i was taught a long time ago that satan was really an angel of god and was kicked out of heaven because he challenged god s authority the problem is i cannot find this in the bible is it in the bible if not where did it originate ref to rev deleted also read ezek this is a desctiption of lucifer later satan and how beautiful he was etc etc grant o o for god has not given us a spirit of fear but a spirit of love of power and a sound mind tim phone
soc.religion.christian	re hate the sin wjhovi ulkyvx louisville edu bill hovingh lpts student writes scott prism gatech edu scott holt writes hate the sin but love the sinner i ve heard that quite a bit recently often in the context of discussions about christianity and homosexuality but the context really isn t that important my question is whether that statement is consistent with christianity i would think not i m very grateful for scott s reflections on this oft quoted phrase could someone please remind me of the scriptural source for it rom doesn t count kids the manner in which this little piece of conventional wisdom is applied has in my experience been uniformly hateful and destructive billh underlining mine quean lutibelle yes those who apply it hatefully would be better served if they if they could alter the bible to reflect their views scene a well in samaria woman but i have no husband jesus yo everybody listen up get your rocks ready we ll have some good biblical fun here she is whispering to me that she doesn t have a husband yet i know by my secret powers that she has had five of them you know how these samaritans are and worse she s living with a guy now that she s not even married to now i believe in loving her and if you ll just raise up those rocks like the bible allows and threaten her with a good stoning she ll understand how much we hate the sin but love the sinner we must keep our priorities strait lest folks years from now misunderstand me and believe i canceled all sin scene golgatha nd thief you got a raw deal man they didn t catch you doing anything wrong like they caught me bleeding jesus now son let me be real clear you say you did something wrong but are you repenting i need to be absolutely certain cause if you repent i have a nice room for you in heaven but if you think you might go thieving again i have to cancel your reservation it is nice of you to have pity on me while i m hanging here but you must understand this is all an act i m not really hurting i m god you see and the point of all this is to teach you to be perfect like me if you think a simple kind remark to me in suffering is going to get you any favors you d better think twice but if you will just repent you will become a fundelical in good standing from all such bad news you have delivered us good god thank you thank you thank you quean lutibelle louie louie crew academic foundations department rutgers university nwk lcrew andromeda rutgers edu if by snail i prefer p o box newark nj
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christiani he is hoping to pass a resolution that more or less states that we the members of the church agree to disagree on the issue admitting that both sides have honestly studied the scriptures and had the spirit lead them to different conclusions it worked last year when the abortion issue threatened to do more or less the same thing and he is hopeful that the ga can foster a loving and caring attitude about people who disagree with their own view cliff slaughterbeck people would not be willing to note that the church was not willing to live with this kind of compromise with ordination of women the one thing that will definitely prevent a person from becoming a presbyterian minister is if they indicate that they don t accept ordination of women the argument is that we can t have half the church not accepting the leaders of the other half maybe people will clh it might be interesting for folk to know that the church of scotland also a presbyterian church managed to agree to disagree over women s ordination for years the reasoning was that congregations are free to call whoever they wish and that ministers and sessions choose elders if a congregation did not wish to have a woman they were not obliged to and if a session did not wish to they could not be forced to note that the who issue of freedom to call on the part of the congregation is very important here this year is the th annivarsary of the disruption where the church split on that very issue they didn t get back together for almost years a couple of years ago on the anniversary of the allowing of womens ordination the position was changed so that in theory all ministers and elders must recognise that women can be ordained in theory a minister who refused to ordain a woman to his session or refused to work with a woman minister in presbytery could be disciplined in practice this has not happened and i believe it is unlikely to happen my personal view is that the new legislation was a mistake and that the permissive but not prescriptive legislation worked very well we are going to start going round the homosexual debate at next years assembly at this years a motion was put to ban the blessing of same sex couples after an edinburgh minister did so our panel on doctrine is currently looking at marriage and will report next year the matter will be considered and debated then hope this is interesting alison
soc.religion.christian	daily verse have i not commanded you be strong and courageous do not be terrified do not be discouraged for the lord your god will be with you wherever you go joshua
soc.religion.christian	re soc religion christian in article may geneva rutgers edu revdak netcom com d andrew kille writes anni dozier dozier utkux utk edu wrote after reading the posts on this newsgroup for the pasts months it has become apparent to me that this group is primarily active with liberals catholics new agers and athiests someone might think etc since when did conservative protestant old time religion believers get an exclusive francise to christianity christianity is and always has been a diverse and contentious tradition and this group reflects that diversity i fo one am not ready to concede to any group be they liberal or conservative catholic protestant or orthodox charismatic or not the right to claim that they have the truth and everyone else is not christian i am becoming increasingly convinced that most of us take paul s illustration about one body many parts far too narrowly it is easy to say that the one body represents a particular sect of christianity generally our own and the parts are clearly the various offices of ministry there is a place for that but having met people who are walking closeely with god in a wide variety of doctine catholic protestant liberal conservative orthodox etc i am willing to encompass a wide spectrum of views within the context of the body of christ and i am equally sure that one day after we shug off this mortal coil when we no longer see through a glass darkly but see clearly face to face we will all be ashamed at some of the things we held as truth we ought all fellowship worship and serve where we are called and understand that where we are called may not be where everyone else is called one of the fathers of the reformation help me out can t recall the name put it quite succiently in essentials unity in nonessentials liberty in all things charity while i agree with lewis mere christianity that calling oneself a christian implies some basic fundamental standards of belief if the word is to mean anything at all i think most of us define the bounds of essentials a bit too broadly deny the place for liberty in questionable issues near those bounds and ignore the requirements of charity all together me i attend a vineyard church speak in tongues am effectively an inerrantist though i ll grant some inaccuracy in translation am moderately pre mill and evangelical but i m not ready to damn those who use icons say mass in latin uphold the virgin mary though i really don t believe that she was sinless vote on church membership or insist on baptism for salvation of course i think my doctine is pretty close to the truth why would i follow it if i believed something else was closer to the truth but my understanding of the reality of a walk with christ is continually evolving as i spend more and more time walking with him studying his word and fellowshiping with others in the often extended family i read much of the night and go south in the winter t s eliot the waste land s w marlatt prov university of colorado marlatt spot colorado edu national center for atmospheric research marlatt neit cgd ucar edu
soc.religion.christian	re baptism requires faith in article jhpb sarto budd lake nj us joseph h buehler writes catholics view the effects of baptism slightly differently and that s one primary reason why they baptize babies they believe that baptism produces a change in the soul of the baby quite independently of any volitional act on the part of the baby this change in the baby s soul gives the infant certain capabilities that he would not have without baptism since the infant does not have the use of his intellect and will yet these new faculties are dormant but as the child gets older the gifts of baptism come more and more into play i guess i would react rather strongly to this line of thinking carried out when you think your army is stronger than mine you would righteously take my children and baptize them doing what you know is really best for them you cannot possibly put this kind of action nor the crusades into the context of the teachings of jesus god i think he advocated a different approach that was by design made to be appealing to those called by him not chosen by a church practice it seems to me you have the cause and effect switched the change comes and then you get baptized answer not a fool according to his folly lest thou also be like unto him answer a fool according to his folly lest he be wise in his own conceit proverbs
soc.religion.christian	arsenokoitai continuing part i think used by permission the source and nt meaning of arsenokoitai with implications for christian ethics and ministry james b deyoung w petersen more recently wright s understanding has itself been questioned from a different direction in a brief study william petersen found linguistic confusion in using the english word homosexuals as the meaning of arsenokoitai he faulted wright and english bible translaions for rendering it by homosexuals in i cor and i tim in a sense petersen has coalesced bailey boswell and scroggs into a single assertion that reiterates in effect the position of bailey he finds homosexuals unacceptable as a translation because it is anachronistic a major disjunction exists between contemporary thought and terminology and the thought and terminolgy in paul s time what is this disjunction he bases it on historical and linguistic facts accordingly ancient greek and roman society treated male sexuality as polyvalent and characterized a person sexually only by his sexual acts virtually all forms of behavior except transvestism were acceptable christianity simply added the categories of natural and unnatural in describing these actions ancient society know nothing of the categories of homosexuals and heterosexuals and assumed that in the words of dover quoted approvingly by petersen everyone responds at different times to both homosexual and to heterosexual stimuli in contrast to this modern usage virtually limits the term homosexual to desire and propensity k m benkert who in coined the german term equivalent to homosexual used it as referring to orientation impluse or affectional preference and having nothing to do with sexual acts petersen then proceeds to cite the supplement to the oxford english dictionary which defines homosexual only as a propensity or desire with no mention of acts petersen s point is that by using homosexuals for arsenokoitai one wrongfully reads a modern concept back into early history where no equivalent concept existed consequently the translation is inaccurate because it includes celibate homophiles incorrectly exludes heterosexuals who engage in homosexual acts and incorrectly includes female homosexuals prior to there was no cognitive structure either inour society or in antiquity within which the modern bifurcation of humanity into homosexuals and hetersosexuals made sence the foregoing clarifies why petersen feels that the translatio homosexual is mistaken yet is it possible that petersen is the one mistaken on both historical and linguistic or philological grounds the next phases of this paper will critically examine petersen s position the justification for translating arsenokoitai by homosexuals historical grounds a refutation of the foregoing opposition to the traslation of arsenokoitai by homosexuals begins with the historical and cultural evidence since virtually everyone acknowledges that the word does not appear before paul s usage no historical settings earlier than his are available yet much writing reveals that ancient understanding of homosexuality prior to and contemporary with paul the goal is to discover wheither the ancient s conceived of homosexuality particularly homosexual orientation in a way similar to present day concepts peterson bailey boswell and scroggs claim that the homosexual condition desire propensity or inversion whatever it is called cannot be part of the definition of the term they assert this either because the term is limited to acts of particular kind boswell active male prostitutes scroggs pederasty or because the homosexual condition was unknown in ancient times bailey petersen the following discussion will show why neither of these positions is legitimate attention will be devoted to the latter postion first with the former one being addressed below under linguistic grounds in regard to the latter position one may rightfully ask did not the homosexual condition exist before is it only a modern phenomenon yet if it is universal as alleged today it must have existed always including ancient times even though there is lack of sophistication in discussing it indeed evidence show that the ancients pre christian and christian not only knew about the total spectrum of sexual behavior including all forms of same sex activity transvestism included but also knoew about same sex orientation or condition petersen admits n that plato in symposium d d may be a sole possible exception to ancient ingnorance of this condition he discounts this however believing that even here acts appear to be the deciding factor however this is a very significant exception hardly worthy of being called an exception because of the following additional evidence for a homosexual condition the symposium of plato gives some of the strongest evidence for knowledge about the homosexual condition plato posits a third sex comprised of a maile female androgynon man woman hence original nature palai physis consisted of three kinds of human beings zeus sliced these human beings in half to weaken them so that they would not be a threat to the gods consequently each person seeks his or her other half either one of the opposite sex or one of the same sex plato then quotes aristophances each of us then is but a tally of a man since every one shows like a flatfish the traces of having been sliced in two and each is ever searching for the tally that will fit him all the men who are sections of that composite sex that at first was called man woman are woman courters our adulterers are mostly descended from that sex whence likewise are derived our mancourting women and adulteresses all the women who are sections of the woman have no great fancy for men they are incllined rather to women and of this stock are the she minions men who are sections of the male pursue the masculine and so long as their boyhood lasts they show themselves to be sliced of the male by making griends with men and delighting to lie with them and to be clasped in men s embrasces these are the finest boys and striplings for they have the most manly nature some say they are shameless creatures but falsely for their behavior is due not to shamelessness but to daring manliness and virility since they are quick to welcome their like sure evidence of this is the fact that on reaching maturity these alone prove in a public career to be men so when they come to man s estate they are boy lovers and have no natural interest in wiving and getting children but only do these things under stress of custom they are quite contented to live together unwedded all their days a man of this sort is at any rate born to be a lover of boys or the willing mate of a man eagerly greeting his own kind well when one of them whether he be a boy lover or a lover of any other sort happens on his own particular half the two of them are wondrously thrilled with affection and intimacy and love and are hardly to be induced to leave each other s side for a single moment these are they who continue together throughout life though they could not even say what they would have of one another d c should these two persons be offered the opportunity to be fused together for as long as they live or even in hades aristophanes says that each would unreservedly deem that he had been offered just what he was yearning for all the time e several observations about this text are in order lesbianism is contemplated as will as male homosexuality e natural interest ton noun physei b refelects modern concepts of propensity or inclination the words born to be a lover of boys or the willing mate of a man paiderastes te kai philerastes gignetai b reflect the modern claims to be born this i e as homosexual the idea of mutuallity the two of them are wondrously thrilled with affection and intimacy and love b is present aristophanes even speaks of mutual love ingrained in mankind reassembling our early estate ho eros emphytos allelon tois anthropois kai tes archaias physeos synagogeus d the concept of permanency these are they who continue together throughout life c is also present further mention of and or allusion to permanecy mutality gay pride pederasty homophobia motive desire passion and the nature of love and its works is recognizable clearly the ancients thought of love homosexual or other apart from actions the speakers in the symposium argue that motive in homosexuality is crucial money office influence etc bring reproach e a b they mention the need to love the soul not the body e there are tow kinds of love in the body b and each has its desire and passion b d the speakers discuss the principles or matters of love c the desires of love c and being males by nature c noteworthy is the speech of socrates who devotes much attention to explaining how desire is related to love and its objects a c desire is felt for what is not provided or present for something they have not or are not or lack this is the object of desire and love socrates clearly distinguishes between what sort of being is love and the works of love e this ancient philosopher could think of both realms seaual acts as well as disposition of being or nature his wors have significance for more than pederasty in summary virtually every element in the modern discussion of love and homosexuality is anticipated in the symposium of plato petersen is in error when he claims that the ancients could only think of homosexual acts not inclination or orientation widespread evidence to the contray supports the latter biblical support for homosexuality inclination in the contexts where homosexual acts are discribed adds to the case for the ancient distinction in rom such phrases as reasoning heart becoming foolish desires of the heart and reprobate mind prove paul s concern for disposition and inclination along with the doing or working of evil also see vv even the catologues of vices are introdiced i tim or concluded i cor by words describing what people are or were not what they do habits betray what people are within as also the lord jesus taught cf matt the inner condition is as important as the outer act one gives rise to the other cf mt petersen errs regarding other particulars too transvestism apparently was accepted by the ancients it was practiced among canaaniteds syrian people of asia minor as well as greeks according to s r driver only a few moralist and jewish writers are on record as condemning it for example seneca moral epistles condemns homosexual exploitation that forces an adult slave to dress be beardless and behave as a woman philo also goes to some length to describe the homosexuals of his day and their dressing as women the special laws iii see also his on the virtues where he justifies prohibition of cross dressing even the ot forbade the interchange of clothing between the sexes deut petersen is also wrong in attributing to christianity the creating of the new labels of natural and unnatural for sexual behavior these did not begin with paul rom but go as far back as ancient greece and even non christian contemporaries used them plato the test naph philo josephu plutarch and others used these words or related concepts linguistic grounds footnotes w l petersen can arsenokoitai be translated by homosexuals i cor i tim vc k j dover greek homosexuality cambridge harvard univ n we are conscious of the fact that plato s writings may not reflect athenian society or that the speakers in symposium may not reflect plato s view however it is assumed that they do and with this agrees dover homosexuality and other evidence cited below the translation is that of w r m lamb plato symposioum lcl cambridge harvard univ note the reference to adulteress if there is a homosexual condition derived from birth or the genes logically there must also be an adulterous conditon derived from birth elsewhere in the symposium we are told that it is the heavenly love to love the male and young men c but this must not be love for boys too young the latter should be outlawed d e such love of youths is to be permanent d lifelong and abiding a where homosexual love is considered a disgrace such an attitude is due to encroachments of the rulers and to the cowardice of the ruled d an early charge of homophobia in athens it was more honorable to love openly than in secret d an ancient expression of coming out of the closet mutality was present this compels lover and beloved alike to feel a zealous concern for their own virtue b for petersen to label the symposium a possible exception to his position is inadequate and misrepresentative it is a significant witness to greek society hundreds of years before the time of christ dover homosexuality finds homosexual desire and orientation in plato s works symposioum and phaedrus and elsewhere philo writes of those who habituate themselves to the practive of homosexual acts the special laws cf de vita contemplativa josephus says that homosexuality had become a fixed habit for some against apion clement of alexandria on matt writes the some men from birth fhave a natural aversion to a woman and indeed those who are naturally so consitited do well not to marry miscellanies it is addressed in novella of justinian s codex of laws it referes to those who have been consumed by this disease as in need of renouncing there plague as well as acts pseudo lucian erostes and achilles tatius leucippe and clitophon ii speak of it finally thucydides has great is you glory if you fall not below the standard which nature has set for your sex boswell christianity cites poets juvenal ovid witers martial statesmen cicero and others who describe permanent mutual homosexual relationships even marriages even emperors could be either gay married nero or exlusively gay hadrian boswell says scroggs homosexuality admits that both inversion and perversion must have existed in the past he discusses possible references to adult mutual homosexual and lesbian relationships but dismisses them see specifics in s r driver a critical and exegetical commentary on deuteronomy edinburgh he observes that the prohibition of cross dressing in deut is not a mere rule of conventional propriety see also dover homosexuality plato in his last work in which he seeks to show how to have a virtuous citizen condemned pederasty and marriage between men as against nature para phosin laws a b c a c d e according to test naph the sodomites changed the order of nature the jewish writers philo on abraham and josephus ant ag ap label sexual deviation as against nature finally first century moralist such as plutarch dianlogue on love c e b c spoke of homosexuality as against nature christians clearly did not invent the labels natural and unnatural see j b de young the meaning of nature in romans and its implications for biblical prosecriptions of homosexual behavior jets dec
soc.religion.christian	re the doctrine of original sin alan e alan idler aidler sol uvic ca writes alan we can also analyze to whom the lord is addressing marvel alan not that i said unto thee ye must be born again john alan here jesus is clearly directing his remarks to nicodemus a alan ruler of the jews not a child yes but jesus also made a very general and doctrinal statement in the same conversation flesh gives birth to flesh but the spirit gives birth to spirit john clearly infants are not born of the spirit thus without baptism they are unspiritual they are not born with the image of god but in adam s fallen image cf gen they have no righteousness of their own just as adults have no righteousness of their own there is only the imputed righteousness of christ which believers receive through faith alan we can ask ourselves why the lord would even introduce the alan concept of spiritual re birth through baptism if newborn babies alan weren t free from sin your point is a little obscure here but i think you are saying that christ used the innocence of newborn babes as a metaphor for spiritual re birth but this is not what he did if you look at the text he did not speak of spiritual re birth but of spiritual birth we are born of the spirit once not twice or several times we are also born of the flesh once the lord makes it clear that these are separate and different events it is true that other scriptures refer to spiritual birth as re birth because it is a second birth for example titus but it is not a second spiritual birth the only thing the two births have in common is the concept of birth which is used as a symbol of new life not of innocence when an infant is born or conceived a new life is begun but it is neither innocent nor righteous similarly when that same individual is baptized or perhaps when they believe prior to baptism they begin a new life in christ romans colossians titus ephesians then the believer has god s assurance of the forgiveness of their sins and of christ s imputed righteousness for references see the augsburg confession article ii original sin the apology to the augsburg confession article ii original sin the formula of concord article i original sin and luther s large catechism part baptism for something more recent see baptized into god s family the doctrine of infant baptism by andrew das available from northwestern publishing house andrew is a graduate of concordia lutheran seminary st louis and is now pursuing doctoral studies at yale divinity school david wagner but mad reason rushes forth a confessional lutheran and because baptism is not dazzling like the works we do regards it as worthless martin luther large catechism part baptism
soc.religion.christian	info needed ok let me see if i can get all this out concisely i am on an information gathering venture regarding the various expressions of christianity churches there are my husband and i come from very different but completely christian backgrounds i was a lutheran when i met him and he was a born and raised church of christ member at first i agreed with a lot of what the c of c was about i wanted to move from the liturgical based lutheran church to something a little more biblical based however over the last year i ve been regretting changing to the church of christ for a number of reasons for one thing i am not a fundamentalist and believe that a few things in the bible are socio cultural in nature and don t relate to the christian doctrine one of my sorest spots is the role of women i believe that through mary and other women chris validated women as worthy disciples but in the c of c the writings of paul are taken without exception and i am told that i am not an equal partner in my marriage but the lesser member i am to submit to my husband in all things if i hear that verse one more time and i am not to take an active role in anything which might be construed as putting me in authority over men ie leading prayers conducting bible studies etc the last straw was when the elders at our church came down on one of our college groups because it was all women and they wanted a man to lead the study also my husband and i really resent the way everyone at our church feels that if you aren t a conservative republican you aren t a real christian i got told that nobody who voted for clinton should call themselves a christian hence we are subjected during the service to long prayers calling for things we flatly dont agree with we are also don t agree with the c of c s dread of any new movement being led by the young people so we have been church hunting with no success i want a reasonably biblical based church where women are viewed as whole people no matter what their calling c of c really looked down on career women christopher is looking for a church with deeply rooted religious convictions with adult baptism and a church where the members still bring their bibles to service we are so confused here and we re drifting around trying to find a place where we both feel loved and can express our faith honestly and without reservation if anyone can point us in a direction we d be thrilled i m afraid that it will be very hard for me to go back to c of c and even harder for me to stay churchless for long any responses would be welcome the diel family i would think somewhere in the baptist spectrum you might find what you re looking for however the issue is probably more one of the flavor of the specific local churches in your area than the denomination baptists cover quite a spectrum adult baptism sort of narrows your choices on the more liberal end of the spectrum historically that s been associated with movements that have the character you re trying to avoid clh
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality bryan whitsell whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu wrote recently an e mail to me mentioned technically the messengers aren t even human so it can t be a case of homosexuality even of rape the jude reference to sodom is also meaningful only in the context of the sodomites lust for the other flesh of angels again application to homosexual behavior in general or to the position of gay christians is largeely specious are angels flesh no i feel that this is saying that it was because of their lust after other men who are flesh or of this world what are other opinons on this i haven t heard much about this verse at all bo reike in the anchor bible volume on james peter and jude points out that all the examples given in this section of jude are distinguishing the elect from apostates not just the wicked in general hence those who were delivered from egypt but did not follow moses and by extension god the apostate angels and sodom and gomorrah quoting reike fornication may here as often in the new testament refer to idolatry while flesh as in i pet denotes human society and its violent attempts at self exaltation sodom and gommorrah represent the leaders of apostasy and the surrounding cities correspond to their followers p there is no inherent reason to read this verse as literally referring to actual sexual lust for alien flesh nor is it inherently necessary to understand it as referring to homosexuality outside of the circular reasoning that has already concluded that the sin of sodom is the sin of homosexuality the only place that the sin of sodom is specified and not merely inferred is in ezekiel this was the guilt of your sister sodom she and her daughters had pride excess of food and prosperous ease bit did not aid the poor and needy they were haughty and did abominable things before me therefore i removed them when i saw it for the same reason overliteralizing the text your correspondent s suggestion that the reason the passage doesn t deal with homosexuality is because the guests were angels and not men is just silly there are much more solid reasons for pointing out the irrelevance of the sodom passages for dealing with homosexuality per se revdak netcom com
soc.religion.christian	re christian reformed the christian reformed church does not allow people to belong to lodges the reformed church in america does the conservatives in both churches are very similar as are the progressives the rca currently ordains women the crc is fighting over the issue a significant fraction of both churches live in western michigan fyi i went to the crc school calvin college dan
soc.religion.christian	who is ram das who is ram das according to his brochures he is a k a richard alpert phd and is somehow associated with the seva foundation n san pedro road san rafael ca and the hanuman foundation san anselmo ave san anselmo ca he speaks publically on such topics as consciousness current events and has written some books and recorded some tapes on similar subjects why do i care my wife wants to go to one of his lectures when i asked why she said ram das was the greatest spiritual leader of our time several years ago my wife got involved with a religious cult and we went through months of hell that almost ended our marriage before she quit let s just say i m concerned about this ram das and her interest especially so with the recent religious cult events from texas i need information solid and real so i know what i m dealing with if you have any information about ram das or the organizations shown above i would be very interested in your correspondence please reply via e mail to me at scott hpsdde sdd hp com thank you scott roleson the dictionary of cults that i use classifies this as new age with a basically hindu orientation the headquarters is or was when this was written at that lama foundation which they identify as a new age commune in san cristobel new mexico for information you might read alpert s books which they list as be here now an autobiography the only dance there is and grist for the mill it is dealt with briefly in a citation given as larson new book pp i assume this is bob larson larson s new book of cults i d warn you however that the whole approach to the new age is controversial sources such as the reference book i used as well as bob larson believe in a satanic new age conspiracy which some regard as hysterical however at the very least it seems clear that this is not a christian group clh
soc.religion.christian	why i am not bertrand russell nd request could the guy who wrote the article why i am not bertrand russell resend me a copy sorry i accidently deleted my copy and forgot your name
soc.religion.christian	leadership magazine article i m looking for the following article the war within an anatomy of lust leadership pp i ve looked in the libraries of uk bible colleges but none of them subscribe to the magazine its a us publication btw if anyone has access to this article and would be willing to post me a photocopy i presume that copyright restrictions will allow this please e mail me thanks michael davis cs mcd brunel ac uk
soc.religion.christian	traveling fatima was re consecration and anniversary hello i just like to share this rosary and other prayer propagation practice we do in my country i am not sure if it is going on also here in the us or any other country in all these yrs i ve been here in illinois usa i have not encountered it may i just call it traveling fatima since i don t know of an exact translation of what we call it in my native language for certain regions in a district in a town or city an image statue of our lady of fatima is moved from one home originating from owner to another this will stay with that family for one week and this family is required to pray the rosary and other prayers prayer sheets accompany the image to our lady of fatima the move will be like a simple procession of folks picking up the image from its current home after departing prayers and proceeds to move it to the next home which has the prior notification about the move there will be the receiving prayers at the next home to welcome our lady of fatima image there it does not have to be that only members of the family in that home who must pray to the image they may invite others or others friends can invite themselves in to participate during prayer time in that new home everyday for one week this image is moved from one family to the next within the bounded region of that district until it goes back to the owner of the image this is probably going on around there philippines right now or somebody correct me when exactly since i forgot and every year this is part of our devotion to our lady of fatima it has been easy to facilitate this back home because it is more likely that your next door neighbor is a catholic and the image then is just moved next door i am thinking of starting something like it in the village where my sister and her family lives most of our friends and neighbors there are catholics and practicing ones i d like to know if there are any state community laws that this practice will violate whatsoever before i go for it thank you for any comments or help about this matter marida maridai ecs comm mot com
soc.religion.christian	dialogue with conservatives wanted are there any members of conservative religious politically active groups such as the christian coalition out there i come from a very liberal background and i d like to talk to some conservative people out there in a public forum such as this one i frankly can t understand the rationale or christian basis for much of the conservative position and i d like to try and learn more about this movement after all we re part of the same church is anyone interested in explaining a bit about the conservative viewpoint thanks alan terlep if your children knew just how oakland university rochester mi lame you were they d murder atterlep vela acs oakland edu you in your sleep rushing in where angels fear to tread frank zappa
soc.religion.christian	latin mailing list from the june newsletter of the latin liturgy association there is a new e mail discussion group latin l a forum for people interested in classical latin medieval latin neo latin the languages of choice are latin of course and whatever vulgar languages you feel comfortable using please be prepared to translate on request the field is open name your topic in order to subscribe bitnet users should send an interactive message of the form tell listserv psuvm sub latin l your name internet users should send a message without a subject line to the address listserv psuvm psu edu the message should read sub latin l your name once subscribed one may participate by sending messages to latin l psuvm or latin l psuvm psu edu richard aquinas chonak norris mit edu orbis unus orans
soc.religion.christian	re hate the sin in article may geneva rutgers edu wjhovi ulkyvx louisville edu bill hovingh lpts student writes scott prism gatech edu scott holt writes hate the sin but love the sinner my question is whether that statement is consistent with christianity i would think not i m very grateful for scott s reflections on this oft quoted phrase could someone please remind me of the scriptural source for it it s not scriptural but comes from the patristic age i think something about amare errantem interficere errorem which sounds more like love the errant slay the error no doubt someone else will know in particular who minted the phrase if i had to guess i d blame st augustine who seems to have had a gift for aphorism richard aquinas chonak norris mit edu sometimes it s necessary to act as if you believed
soc.religion.christian	translations alison j wyld wrote to all ajw does anyone know of an english language edition that does not show the ajw verse or even chapter numbers clh the original neb put verse numbers only in the margin kenneth wuest s expanded translation of the new testament does the same it puts the range of verse numbers next to the top of each paragraph being an expanded translation it is quite verbose though more suitable for detailed study than for quick reading mike golded internet mike hahn p f n z fidonet org via the catalyst bbs in port elizabeth south africa catpe alt za v bis hst
soc.religion.christian	the doctrine of original sin stephen a creps writes to all sac also we know that sac the bible says that everyone must be baptized to enter heaven where exactly does it say that sac everyone includes infants unless there is other scripture to the sac contrary i e an exception since there is no exception listed in the sac bible we must assume to be on the safe side that the bible means what sac it says that everyone must be baptized to enter heaven i think we do see an exception in the case of cornelius and his household mentioned in acts of course they were baptised but only after god showed that he accepted them by giving them the holy spirit this means they were already acceptable to god before their baptism and had they suddenly died they would have gone to heaven in case that seems far fetched an ancestor of mine was a missionary who worked among the hereros in namibia some of the tribesmen were jealous of christianity and they poisoned the first convert before he could be baptised surely he still went to heaven i m inclined to agree with a comment recorded at the time it is not the neglect of baptism but its contempt that condemns mike internet mike hahn p f n z fidonet org via the catalyst bbs in port elizabeth south africa catpe alt za v bis hst
soc.religion.christian	re is this ethical just a quick comment as a baptist clergyperson i find the idea of such a baptism if the news report is in fact accurate and they seldom are regarding religion offensive the pastor here seems to have a most unbaptist view of baptism one that seems to demand the ceremony even when comprehension and choice are absent we do baptize converts but no one who has been deceived into hearing the word is likely to be a convert if in fact the grace of god might work in such a situation there is no harm done in waiting a day or two baptist believe in regenerate membership did this church include these half baked at best converts into their church fellowship or do they somehow feel there is some validity in dunking them and turning them loose this kind of evangelism is certainly not baptist and probably not very christian either revdak netcom com
soc.religion.christian	re soc religion christian in article may geneva rutgers edu sfp lemur cit cornell edu sheila patterson wrote as for the atheists agnostics who read this list if you aren t christian and if you have no intention of ever becoming one why on earth do you waste your time and mine by participating on a christian discussion list i don t think we should draw borders around newsgroups christians are free to read and post entries on the atheist newsgroups and muslims are free to so so in other groups as well it s up to each individual to define their time schedule concerning postings the problems we all have noticed on various newsgroups is the evangelistical method of telling that i am right and you are wrong this is true of both theists and atheists hopefully a more constructive dialogue between the groups would help concerning assumptions and colorization of views cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
soc.religion.christian	re mary s assumption in article may athos rutgers edu david bernard central sun com writes in response to a question about why jesus parents would be sanctified beyond normal humanity when elizabeth greeted mary elizabeth said something to the effect that mary out of all women was blessed if so it appears that this exactly places mary beyond the sanctification of normal humanity i would think that simply being pregnant with the incarnation of the almighty god would be enough to make mary blessed among all women whether or not she had special spiritual attributes i find that the more special mary needs to be the less human jesus gets seanna watson bell northern research pray that at the end of living seanna bnr ca ottawa ontario canada of philosophies and creeds god will find his people busy opinion what opinions oh these opinions planting trees and sowing seeds no they re not bnr s they re mine i knew i d left them somewhere fred kaan
soc.religion.christian	re soc religion christian in article may geneva rutgers edu sfp lemur cit cornell edu sheila patterson writes as for the atheists agnostics who read this list if you aren t christian and if you have no intention of ever becoming one why on earth do you waste your time and mine by participating on a christian discussion list i find this remark to be awfully arrogant i would venture to say that there are many people who are christians now who at one point in their lives had no intention of ever becoming a christian i was certainly one such person i am quite thankful that there were christians who were willing to continue to talk to me despite the appearance that it might have been a waste of their time and mine i even married one of them always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give a reason for the hope that you have but do this with gentleness and respect peter seanna watson bell northern research pray that at the end of living seanna bnr ca ottawa ontario canada of philosophies and creeds god will find his people busy opinion what opinions oh these opinions planting trees and sowing seeds no they re not bnr s they re mine i knew i d left them somewhere fred kaan
soc.religion.christian	re immaculate conception was re what was the immaculate you forgot one thing all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god mark
soc.religion.christian	islam satanic dear fellow christians i had a dinner last night with a bible study group which i am in we had a discussion about the difference between christianity and islam and i was shocked to hear that our bible study teacher said that mohammad was indeed a prophet but of satan i said what i did not believe that because i have some moslem friends who are so kind and nice even sometimes i feel i wish i could be like them in my point of view they don t sin as much as i do how come if they were under satan they could have such personalities to tell you the truth i don t know much about islam but i know that they believe in god they believe in the day of judgement now i m asking you what your opinions about islam and its teaching important i do not want to discuss whether they are saved or not i do not want to discuss about politic related to islam p s i post this in bit listserv christia soc religion christian and bit listserv catholic in christ our lord smile jesus loves you tabut torsina torsina enuxhb eas asu edu let me start by saying that this is not the right newsgroup for a discussion of islam since there s a group for that but i suspect the point your teacher was making was not specifically about islam indeed it s going to be impossible to see what he was getting at within your groundrules since the question of whether non christians are saved is at the heart of it the classic christian view which i think most people believed until the last century or so was that christianity and of course judaism was the only religion founded by god and that all other religions worshipped false gods and came from satan this is more or less a corollary of another traditional view that no one but christians and possibly jews will be saved this need not mean that there s no truth in any other religion nor that all of their members are intentionally satanic after all in order to be an effective snare satanic alternatives would have to be attractive thus they might contain all kinds of truth wisdom and spiritual insights they would be missing only one thing knowledge of salvation through christ if this is the background of your teacher s remarks and i suspect it is that means that a discussion of islam is not necessarily relevant the point is not that there s anything intrinsically wrong with it it may teach a fine code of behavior and its practitioners may all be wonderful people but if salvation requires being a follower of christ it could still be a satanic invention this is a reasonable deduction from the classic protestant position christianity says that salvation isn t a matter of being kind and nice those are good things and we should encourage them but no one is able to do them enough to be saved salvation requires christ please forgive me for doing this in protestant terms there s a catholic equivalent to this that has similar implications but in different terms a religion may be quite attractive in all visible ways but if it doesn t have christ it s like a diet that consists of food that looks wonderful tastes great but is missing some essential food element so that you end up dying let me be clear that i am not specifically advocating this position what i m trying to do is as usual to clarify issues indeed it is now relatively uncommon for christians to believe that all other religions are satanic most christians regard such beliefs as an unfortunate vestige of the past this is part of a general move within christianity in the last century or so to a non judgemental god christians now find it hard to believe that god would allow anybody other than a really rotten person to end up in hell and they find it hard to envision that real malignant spiritual forces are at work in the world doing things like creating superficially attractive alternatives to christianity whether there is actually a sound basis for the shift is a decision that people need to make for themselves clh
soc.religion.christian	re consecration of russia i will remind this list that i have a booklet on fatima i will send to any one who wants it it is our lady of fatima s peace plan from heaven it is pages in length and includes the fatima story if you want one or more let me know wallace mayo mayo cs utk edu
soc.religion.christian	re consecration and anniversary not to change the subject but how was fr gobbi allowed at notre dame notre dame is an anti catholic university was this allowed to show that the crackpots at notre dame believe in freedom of speech i am glad that they did allow him to speak mike
soc.religion.christian	the easy way out easy vs hard easy on who i had a rare very personal talk with my mother last year she said that when she and my father were raising we four children they did not try to raise us in this world as strictly as they were raised in their norwegian lutheran community they felt that we would be alienated from them and it would create problems in other words my parent did the very tolerant loving thing they raised us without conflict without what we saw as unreasonable demands and were always accepting no matter what the circumstances what happened was that i grew up believing in situation ethics and never absolutes i believed in a loving god and my concept of god never involved justice or punishment nor was there any concept that i may someday be held responsible for the things that offended him sins that the world told me were ok my parents are very good honest and moral people they raised four extremely honest children yet before coming to a more complete knowledge of god which includes the knowledge of justice and punishment i committed what i now believe to be many many grave sins i lived with a partner outside of marriage was married and divorced only after physical abuse and no apparent hope for change but i shouldn t have married to person in the first place and more my parents felt they were doing the loving kind thing by allowing us to be who we were by not imposing their standards on us and by accepting unquestioningly everything we did without judgement or counsel today it is absolutely appalling for me to look back on what they did accept without a word it takes courages to dare to help souls because you must speak up and say what is unpopular and difficult and what people do not want to hear you must be able to say what is hard and say it as christ would with love and compassion it involves risk perhaps someone you love may not want to hear and will stay away from you this life is but dust as long as the comfort of this life is our highest priority we will fail god and fail those with whom we come in contact i wonder how many who engage in sex outside of marriage who support the right to abortion who engage in homosexuality or who commit any of the range of sins that are plentiful in this time have ever heard from a quiet thoughtful loving friend that these things are wrong no one ever told me that what i was doing was wrong and i saw multitudes around me living the same way i was and they seemed like good decent people wouldn t kick dogs or beat the elderly or babies it is more difficult for sinners without a genuine prayer life to hear the holy spirit than it is to hear a loving friend think about this the next time the holy spirit tells you that a friend is in error but you don t want to cause trouble righteous prayers is great power but don t forget that we are we are christ s lips and hands on earth don t be afraid to simply voice truth when the situation calls for it say a fervent prayer and ask the holy spirit for love and guidance in more ways than we may realize we are our brother s keeper in jesus and mary elizabeth
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch update in article nate psygate psych indiana edu nate psygate psych indiana edu nathan engle writes aej d cmuvm bitnet writes ah yes i see a few liberal weenies have come out of the woodwork to defend the burning of the children actually all the liberals i ve seen have deplored the burning of children i would far preferred that the davidians had not set the fire that burned themselves and their children to death but i don t believe that the responsibility for the fire or the almost complete absense of attempts to escape the blaze can be placed at the door of the federal authorities so far there is no credible evidence that the bd s set the fires themselves we only have the atf fbi s sayso law enforcements type would never lie to cover their ass right probably drooled all over themselves while watching the tv coverage not so my wife got me a convenient plastic drip pan for christmas probably had a few like that in nazi germany as well yeah those nazis you know how we liberals just love those nazis no not love just share a surprising similarity of beliefs and method oh yeah atf fbi now claims according the the media that there are a few survivors the number seems to vary minute by minute yeah as information trickles in funny how that works funny yeah funny how you didn t wait for the fbi spokesdroid latest reversal of facts before proclaiming the bd s burned themselves to death nathan engle software juggler psychology department indiana university nate psygate psych indiana edu nengle silver ucs indiana edu wayne j warf wwarf ucs indiana edu i speak for myself only clinton gore cia fbi dea assassinate bomb wod bor atf irs resist nsa christian god satan apocalypse zog nazi socialist communist explosive fundamentalist revolution nsc federal reserve constitution gold fema
talk.politics.guns	re waco clinton press conference part in article apr ringer cs utsa edu whughes lonestar utsa edu william w hughes writes from whughes lonestar utsa edu william w hughes subject re waco clinton press conference part date wed apr gmt in article feustelc tw p netcom com feustel netcom com david feustel writes i predict that the outcome of the study of what went wrong with the federal assault in waco will result in future assaults of that type being conducted as full scale military operations with explicit shoot to kill directives you mean they aren t already could have fooled me remember waco who will the government decide to murder next maybe you opinions are mine i don t care if you blame the university or the state well it seems we don t learn the lessons of history do we i was hoping that kent state taught us a lesson apparently not apparently the government will murder anyone they choose to still rawlin blake blake nevada edu no sig is a good sig
talk.politics.guns	re waco clinton press conference part did anyone else notice how the question of what federal laws were violated was brushed aside i d like to know what laws were violated and on what evidence the orignial batf warrants were based
talk.politics.guns	re clinton wants national id card aka ussr style internal passport johnston cyberia win net robert johnston writes how bout we embed the card in the forhead of everyones skull can t lose it without being already dead ergo no need for treatment close at birth we implant a smart chip just behind the ear under the skin but above the skull we incase it in a hypo allergenic high carbon content glass this chip would be reprogrammed as we age with the pertinent medical correctional taxational data behave yourself or we ll input it into your permenant record you forgot the part about encasing it in a small shaped charge so that if anyone tries to tamper with it it explodes and kills you oh and the shaped charge can be set off by remote control but only if you get out of line properly patriotic citizens have nothing to fear tom swiss tms cs umd edu born to die keep your laws off my brain what s so funny bout peace love and understanding nick lowe this sig contains no animal products and was not tested on animals congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances the constitution of the united states of america
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors chiu io nosc mil francis chiu writes brent irvine irvine uxh cso uiuc edu wrote failed to mention the davidians pouring kerosene all over and lighting it i plain view brent i m still waiting to see if there are any evidence of how the fire got started so i m not going to tell you who did it as far as you keep talking about the davidians pouring kerosene all over stop and think for a second if it is possible the stove or lamp was knocked over and started a fire and the davidians were pouring water on it wrong solution but i doubt i can do much better in their states of mind to try to put it out by the way just how far where you standing from the davidians when you saw them setting the place on fire oh in case you are new in town microwave ovens doesn t work very well when there s no electricty get some facts before you post next time f chiu first the fbi said they saw two members of the cult start the fire and the fbi never lies second the first started in opposite ends of the compound at the same time and thirdly the fire spread too quickly for it not to be help without an accelerate stevek cellar org steve kraisler the cellar bbs
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article r j k da menudo uh edu hadcrjam admin uh edu miller jimmy a writes the problem with the fbi as a monolithic entity doing it is that it requires everybody involved to keep their mouths shut while they tended to behave like total idiots that does not make them homocidal maniacs either and if it was one nutcase agent then it serves no purpose to blame the whole agency a great deal of documentation exists on exactly that phenomenon especially regarding vietnam and the mai lai sp massacre not that i m suggesting that they started it on purpose but even if they now know that they accidentally started or contributed to it you can be sure the initial reaction is to lie remember the iranian airliner which the us navy mistook for a fighter and shot down alan greig janet a greig uk ac dct dundee institute of technology internet a greig dct ac uk tel int never underestimate the power of human stupidity
talk.politics.guns	re the holocaust revisited in article apr gozer mv com klm gozer mv com kevin l mcbride writes the u s government s campaign of persecution and genocide against the branch davidians was a resounding success heil clinton heil reno the gestapo is alive and well and living in washington d c are you for real people dumb enough to give their money and possessions to a guy who says he s jesus deserve all they get anyway he killed a few feds he s not the goddam hero here he s dead an i m happy kevin who agrees that david koresh was probably a first rate nutcase but who firmly believes that the bill of rights guaranteed his his right to be a religious fanatic and that the government is guilty of violating his civil rights and of st degree murder ok which small under represented in congress religious group are we going to persecute next and are we going to torch their church with a rolled up copy of the constitution i think i m going to be sick now john bell dundee fc d i t league champions runners up dundee league cup wins runners up scotland scottish cup win runners up
talk.politics.guns	cnn report fbi atf killing all americans cnn just reported the atf and the fbi have begun killing everyone in the united states a press release stated this action was required because bugs had revealed that many people were doing something illegal in their homes and statistical data indicated that those who weren t might someday do something illegal an atf spokesperson just before he shot himself stated that this would clean up things once and for all if the citizens can be gathered into groups of more than the fbi has indicated they will burn them just like we did those kooks in waco it hasn t been decided how the new proposed energy tax will enter into this an irs representative stated we re looking at the tax code to determine if taxes really end at death with this many dead americans we don t want to overlook anything an atf agent ran into the room and shot her stay tuned rich
talk.politics.guns	re the dayton gun buy back re boston gun buy back in article c uchu ffn cbnews cb att com lvc cbnews cb att com larry cipriani writes according to wnci fm radio this morning dayton ohio is operating a gun buy back they are giving for every functional gun turned in they ran out of money in one day and are now passing out vouchers of some sort they are looking for more funds to keep operating another media event brought to you by hci is there something similar pro gun people can do for example pay to anyone who lawfully protects their life with a firearm sounds a bit tacky but hey whatever works larry cipriani l v cipriani att com here are a few ideas a free library card so they can look up the fbi uniform crime report which shows how good hci is at lying through their teeth a free rtd transit pass which will allow anti gunners to tour south central los angeles and convince people living there that they don t need guns to protect themselves because the police will do it for them don t lose the pass you ll need it to get out a free bus ride to vermont which has almost no gun control and curiously enough almost no crime either a free calculator since anti gunners have heretofore been unable to figure out what a small percentage of the guns owned in america are used to commit violent crime lee gaucher nra my opinions gaucher sam cchem berkeley edu no one else s
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article r dqq of geraldo cc utexas edu mikey ccwf cc utexas edu strider writes irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes mfrhein wpi wpi edu michael frederick rhein writes ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves very popular electric stoves outside metro areas especially hey einstein ever tried to use an electric stove or microwave without electricity it s been shut off for weeks now courtesy of your local fbi assault squad calm down it is not as if i tweaked the fount of the flame wars or anything guns anything to do with them personal opinions why brent irvine yes what did you think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu they were
talk.politics.guns	re to all over again in article apr iitmax iit edu draughn iitmax iit edu mark draughn writes followups to talk politics guns only in article qv v j transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article c n gi f f ulowell ulowell edu jrutledg cs ulowell edu john lawrence rutledge writes so a person who keeps a gun at home is times more likely to die at home from a gunshot than he or she is likely to kill an intruder sounds like apples n oranges to me in any case has anybody tried to make the obvious counter study what are the numbers for someone who does not keep a gun at home that is what is the ratio of dying at home from a gunshot to killing an intruder for people who do not keep guns in their homes so what are is the ratio of unarmed people shot to death in their homes v s unarmed people who kill intruders is it worse than to inquiring minds want to know i don t know this specific ratio but i do have an earlier post that says a gun is times more likely to defend someone including the times where the gun isn t fired just scares the perpetrator away than it is to kill someone including self defense the post is kind of long but i ll be glad to dig it up and email it to anyone who asks doug holland doug holland anyone who tries to take away my freedom holland cs colostate edu of speech will have to pry it from my pgp key available by e mail cold dead lips
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article c tenu f ns nodak edu green plains nodak edu bill green writes what i would like to see is some serious discussion of this incident i believe the moves made were right and proper but i still have some problems with some of the tactics after watching the abc special on it tonight as well as cnn and nightline i question some of the atf and fbi actions some of could it have been possible to have taken koresh outside the compound at some time before the feb th raid yes i think so and it has been reported as such seems like a cowboy movie style attack was needed for some reason could a further wait have resulted in a different outcome the answer is probably yes but consider what was the worst thing that could have happened if they waited hint whatever it was it could not have been any worse that what did happen one other point i m no fan of janet reno but i do like the way she had the balls to go ahead and take full responsibility seems like the waffle boy had problems figuring out just where he stood on the issue but that statement of taking full responsibility is totally meaningless what are the consequences for being fully responsible for this disaster a note in your personnell file slick already called these people a bunch of crazy people and dismissed the idea she should resign doesn t take any balls at all to take the responsibility hell at that rate i will take full responsibility for it no skin off my nose bob rahe delaware tech comm college aids drugs abortion internet bob hobbes dtcc edu don t liberals just kill you ci genie bob rahe save whales and kill babies
talk.politics.guns	re the holocaust revisited in apr dct ac uk mcsdc jpb dct ac uk john bell dribbles in his nappies and manages to splutter you know john if you had kept the follow up to line here on talk politics guns we might have taken you a bit more seriously it would have at least implied that you had some backbone perhaps a modicum of willingness to present your views and support them i guess we all know better now people dumb enough to give their money and possessions to a guy who says he s jesus deserve all they get really that s interesting as i was always of the opinion that people dumb enough to keep a monarchy around and support them with tax funds when said monarchy is merely a figurehead deserve all that they get dunkirk for example what that has nothing to do with it then enjoy your helping of foot anyway he killed a few feds and they killed a few people of their own including one child at last report so what being a federal agent is not license to kill then there s cnn indicating that the atf fbi actually did start the fires which would mean feds killed just under people if you re so hot to assign blame make sure you don t overlook the obvious he s not the goddam hero here montgomery isn t much of a hero here either amazing how different things look on the other side of the pond isn t it not that what you think makes much of a difference in the usa though and for good reason when you can vote i ll take your rhetoric a bit more seriously right now you re merely a waste of trans atlantic bandwidth he s dead an i m happy proof positive that ignorance really is bliss dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes in article apr csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu andy freeman says wrong there are people who can legally carry concealed in il and there are circumstances under which many people can carry concealed is accuracy really too much to expect as i said before no it isn t in another post i referred to the illinois statutes and how i looked up the law for concealed carry i will type in the complete law and post later but i would like to prove that i was correct using accurate information so i will put sections down here now good now let s look at those sections they ll prove my point a a person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly carries or possesses in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person except when on his land or in his own abode or fixed place of business any pistol revolver stun gun or taser or other firearm note that this doesn t affect all concealed carry look after the word except it always helps to read the law before commenting on it would a prudent storekeeper carry concealed how about someone at home note that both are legal and a lot of common people qualify for one or the other andy
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in article cmm thomasp surt ifi uio no thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no writes i don t remember the figures exactly but there were about deaths in texas in that was caused by guns this is more than those beeing killed in car accidents yes there could be that low sentences or high poverty could influence the figures but they re still pretty high right i also believe texas has some of the most liberal gun laws in usa and you d be wrong about that too note that texas isn t unique in this more with gun deaths than with car deaths but some of the other states where it happens have extremely strict gun laws oops so much for the meaning it isn t clear that the comparision means anything anyway as car accidents are unintentional while gun deaths aren t but if we re going to make it let s at least be honest i should not suffer because of others we all agree on this one but we also live in a sociaty and therefor we ll have to give up some of our freedom note the give it up for what gun control doesn t have any benefits so it fails by this standard do you have an insurance then you ll have to pay because of what others do note that insurance gives me something in return gun control doesn t what the hell is he trying to say when you live in a society usa are stilll counted as one you have to saccrifice the question is how much that s half the question the rest is and what do you get for your sacrifice if the answer to the second question is nothing as it is for gun control then we don t have to ask the first question because getting nothing means that no sacrifice is justified andy
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in a previous article jdurbin nl oracle com jason durbin says if even half the speculations of conspiracy made about this are true then i would expect that you people should be calling for the atf fbi texas rangers congress and all branches of the us government to be immediately and completey disbanded no exceptions jeez do you people really beleive all this crap do you also beleive in the zionist occupation government and the tooth fairy i leave the anti semitism to anti gun types like holly silva i have in fact been calling for the disbanding of the batf for quite some time it is an outlaw agency run by incompetants who only have contempt for the laws which they supposedly enforce admittedly mistakes were made but why attribute them to malice rather than stupidity i attribute the acts of the fbi to stupidity i attribute the acts of the batf to malice so did senator dennis deconcini when he held hearings about their misconduct if you were smarter you d have these opinions
talk.politics.guns	re arlen specter s address in article apr ccsvax sfasu edu f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu writes in article apr icd ab com kdw icd ab com kenneth d whitehead writes anybody got arlen spectre s address i want to write to him and thank him for showing the leadership to demand a congressional investigation into the waco mess ken you are talking about the man who as a federal attorney did so much to frustrate the proper investigation of the jfk assassination by the house sub committee on assassinations fox and hen house please note that my above comment was not intended as a flame of ken s call for congressional leadership to conduct a proper investigation it was merely to call attention to the hazard of having specter involved if anyone took it that way i apologize joe gaut in the super state it really does not f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu matter at all what actually happened remember the alamo truth is what the government chooses to remember waco tell you justice is what it wants to happen jim garrison new orleans la
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article isgtec isgtec com robert isgtec com robert osborne writes michael frederick rhein mfrhein wpi wpi edu wrote in article aej d cmuvm bitnet aej d cmuvm bitnet writes napalm then let the wood stove inside ignite it as someone else has pointed out why would the stove be in use on a warm day in texas not that i agree with the original theory or anything buuuuut since their utilities were turned off they might be using wood stoves to cook their meals rob robert a osborne uunet ca isgtec robert or robert isgtec com to rob and all others that have been debating about the wood stove the original post claimed that the atf fbi was pumping napalm into the building with the hopes that the wood stove inside would ignite it i responed with why would the wood stove be lit in the first place it wouldn t be lit for heating purposes because of the weather in texas everyone now claims that it was for cooking stop and think about this cs gas was being pumped into the building and i presume that everyone was wearing gas masks either bought or some type of makeshift type and this had been going on for hours i don t know if you have ever been around cs but i have being exposed to cs gas was part of my army training so i know that without a mask it very uncomfortable and makes your eyes water nose run and makes you sick in the stomach and with the mask it is very difficult to drink water much less eat so my question now is why were they cooking food i will buy that a lantern could have been knocked over and caused the fire but that stove was not being used for cooking unless they were even more crazy than the atf fbi claim michael
talk.politics.guns	re need senate bill numbers and house resolution numbers in na em mcimail com mcimail com peter nesbitt writes i want to get involved in the fight to save our gun rights but first i need to get a little more educated i ve been reading all the magzines and books i can get my hands on and sifting through hundreds of messages here in the internet can anyone tell me how where to obtain this info surely there has to be a way to obtain copies of anti gun legislation from those s in washington the house document room can be reached at you need to have the number of the document you want e g hr and they ll be happy to send it to you tell them if it s going to be a big stack because the surly sounding guy who answers is scrawling in a really awful hand on the back of the envelope that will come and will run out of room quickly if you don t tell him the senate document room is too important to deal with the likes of you and i and will answer requests from off the hill only by mail laird p broadfield lairdb crash cts com ucsd nosc crash lairdb hi i m a shareware signature send if you use me send for manual
talk.politics.guns	re request advice on waist bags fanny paks in aa angel qdeck com burge qdeck com bill burge writes i ve heard that the color strip on the bianchi was put there to identify the bianchi fanny pack to law enforcement they suposedly recieved a flyer indicating the color combinations for easy sighting this has led to lackluster sales for the bianchi well that was an easy decision no more bianchi anything for me laird p broadfield lairdb crash cts com ucsd nosc crash lairdb hi i m a shareware signature send if you use me send for manual
talk.politics.guns	re your evil tax dollars at work was re atf burns ranch etc etc mark mark sachs mbs psuvm psu edu representing the students for increased beverage access siba writes oh then why did the smoke and flames start from three different places in particular three different places where there were no apv s well i only saw it start in one place a tank punched a hole in a wall and as it withdrew flames came out and spread quickly in the direction that a mph wind was blowing i saw a diagram in usa today yesterday and fires started at of the holes that the tanks made a terrible negligent accident and if the government did start the fire then why weren t people trying to get out of the compound maybe they couldn t i ve often marvelled at how people could get burned alive in the upstairs of a story house on fire but it happens all the time what if they were in sealed rooms trying to avoid the gas and didn t know about the fire until it surrounded them remember the israelis hiding in sealed rooms during desert storm to avoid gas bearing scuds cripes mark are you really a college student maybe you ought to stop worrying about increased beverage access and start clearing your head ever heard of questioning authority and besides oh i don t know why i m even bothering ok i ll buy that you do seem totally clueless i find it tremendously chilling that so many people seem eager to believe a murderous heavily armed religious cult despite much evidence to the contrary wellllll they weren t murderous they d never harmed or even threatened anybody until they were attacked by a paramilitary force using military weapons and hardware and as far as evidence what are you talking about everything the feds have said they ve retracted practically as soon as they get questioned in detail about it maybe you and your increased beverage access buddies sitting around the bar slurring stuff like they shoulda killed em all days ago don t feel that way but then you re probably one of those people still saying about klinton give the guy a chance we don t even know what he s gonna do burp thought experiment suppose this exact same thing happened under the bush administration what would your answer be then would you still prefer to believe the cultists no i don t really expect a response to that challenge no problem you don t have any questions that scare any of us most of our minds are apparently more developed than yours the answer is yes in a f cking heartbeat thought experiment would you be mindlessly down on your knees with your mouth open blissfully sucking up anything the feds said if bush were the president what no comeback ok go ahead say it read my lips no new taxes p but then again that is how mr clinton was elected by people who believe that his campaign promisses would be respected by him once he got into office um isn t that how all politicians are elected not in such a great degree bush broke one promise maybe two taxes guns and we held him accountable for it of course it took him the better part of years to do it slick s only been in office days and he s broken lots of them anddd i imagine he ll also be held accountable for that i can just see the campaign buttons now abc anybody but clinton so is there any particular reason the gummint decided to slaughter eighty people are they like just plain evil or what did they just wake up one day stretch and yawn and throw a dart at a map of the united states to figure out who to oppress that day i m eager to know hmmm apparently you just got here nobody s claiming that it was anything but a stupid mistake by a bunch of incompetent public employees who normally don t get this kind of scrutiny when the mess up and as far as how they picked the davidians who knows maybe they figured that nobody d care about such a politically incorrect group as a bunch of fundies out on the texas prairie maybe they figured they d just go in there and run roughshod over the bds during their religious services which was the reason the feds gave for the timing of the raid rather than running into resistance maybe they knew that the bds weren t anywhere near as violent as the feds spin doctors are trying to tell the public maybe they were afraid to try this kind of thing on the crips and bloods maybe it was because the atf s budget is up for approval and they seem to favor doing something dramatic whenever that is the case of course their reasoning doesn t matter only what they did and this time people are just paying more attention to it and does bill clinton have cooler theme music than darth vader not if you mean that stupid don t stop thinking about tomorrow how is he on diabolical laughter all i ve ever heard is hillary s diabolical giggle waffle man seems to have lost his sense of humor does he look good in a cape don t know never seen him in one he probably looks fat and puffy faced just like in a suit i saw him in the rose garden the other day and i couldn t get over how much he is starting to look like teddy kennedy these things must be investigated you first don t worry these things will be investigated now go back to your beer you dimwit i ve heard a lot of people compare bill clinton to jimmy carter and i d like to go on record as saying that i don t think that it s fair jimmy carter was a veteran and he had personal character and even though i can t agree with carter s policies i always believed that he was telling the truth as best he understood it i can t say that for the fat cat ken whitehead kdw odin icd ab com
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi revenge in article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes whughes lonestar utsa edu william w hughes writes i have already called senators legislators and the governor demanding that the warrants be unsealed and that all involved in this atrocity including the president attorney general and governor be suspended pending an investigation welcome to amerika let s see first you want everybody up through the president suspended pending an investigation then you refer to amerika guess you remembered to take your irony supplements this morning eh sigh it is standard procedure to suspend law enforcement officers or re assign them to administrative non enforcement duties while an investigation into possible misconduct is going on the administration has given no indication that such suspensions will occur in this case and given that the president attorney general and governor were all involved in the decisions that led to the waco massacre they should also suspend all activities regarding law enforcement given their positions that equates to an enforced vacation remember waco who will the government decide to murder next maybe you opinions are mine i don t care if you blame the university or the state
talk.politics.guns	re bd s did themselves you re all paranoid freaks in article r p oinn hi clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras wrote i have not made up my mind about waco but there sure seems to be a group of devoted government following fanatics willing to believe whatever that government wants to tell them without any shred of doubt nor thought of thier own they sure get shrill whenever their belief structure is being shaken kinda reminds you of the bds doesn t it jim go to hell i m no government following fanatic your sweeping generalizations evince your own ignorance what were they supposed to do just let him be fuck him fuck the atf too they should ve done it right the first time joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu
talk.politics.guns	re clinton joins list of genocidal socialist leaders in article r rnn rdt usenet ins cwru edu bu cleveland freenet edu brandon d ray wrote perhaps you ve been under a rock the last few days the batf and the fbi are both federal agencies clinton has admitted in front of news cameras that janet reno the once and future attorney general gave him a full briefing of what was planned before they did it and he gave her the go ahead maybe just possibly that makes him a teensy bit responsible perhaps you ve been under a rock since say the turn of the century how in the is one man supposed to review every single freaking governmental action every day that s why we have an executive branch he reviewed the plan and said go but he wasn t the architect and he wasn t there bullhorn in hand implementing it yes he was responsible in the sense that he was briefed so what shit happens that sounds like a callous way to dismiss the deaths of people but i can t understand why people get so bent about the accidental death suicide which is it could take months of some total fucking sociopath child molester and his crazed followers while opposing u s intervention in bosnia just like billy boy said i think some of you people have too much time on your hands and screwed up priorities just my ho joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu
talk.politics.guns	re clinton joins list of genocidal socialist leaders in article r h vinn clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras wrote you seem to make two points no one ultimately oversees the federal agencies you mention and since koresh apparently has a different view point from your baptist upbringing then he is not worthy of protection from religious persecution as to being the messiah is not christ within us all must be comforting to belong to a government approved religion baptists are a cult two btw under most of the definitions in the dictionary of cult i ve yet to meet a group of baptists who were stockpiling cambell s soup and m s ar s and banging marrying thirteen yuear olds you re a sorry son of a bitch if you can t draw a distinction between these two things people like you cheapen our constitution by using it to defend sociopaths who aren t deserved of it get a life and chill on the paranoia joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi do right thing in waco ditto great post joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu
talk.politics.guns	re ammo in a fire was re waco burning in article c xbwr b world std com htf world std com harry carter writes sunshine cco caltech edu tom renner writes v qheg ubvmsb cc buffalo edu p vasilion writes can you imagine what happens when a magazine explodes bullets go flying every where imho these gunshot wounds were actually caused when the magazines went up a minor technical point unless a cartridge is contained for example in the chamber of a gun when it goes off very little of interest happens quoting hatcher s notebook the sporting arms and ammunition manufactures institute reported a demonstration made by taking a large quantity of metallic cartridges and shotgun shells and burning them in a fire of oil soaked wood the cartridges and shells exploded from time to time but there was no general explosion or throwing off of bullets or shot to any distance throughout the test the men conducting it remained within ft of the fire without being injured in any way the material of which the cartridge and shells are composed will usually not fly more than a few feet in tests conducted by the national rifle association both rifle and pistol cartridges were exploded by heat under an ordinary corrugated pasteboard carton and neither fragments of the cartridge cases nor bullets penetrated the cardboard any scientists care to try this out in their kitchen here goes more than a few years back if you were born that year you can legally drink we tried it out we found an ft deep cistern that we lined with some ft x s we put a large can one of those industrial sized pork n beans cans stuffed with oily rags and scraps of wood in the bottom after lighting the fire we lowered a box of spc swcs into the can we heard pops one solid bang and several fizzzz shussss after we thought the excitment was over we boldly climbed down to find that none of the bullets had left the can several of the shells were lieing around the bottom of the well and the boards had all died of smoke inhalation and or of the shells still had live primers dillon pyron the opinions expressed are those of the ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated when i m here when i m home texans vote no on robin hood we need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions not gestures padi dm
talk.politics.guns	re the truth about waco in the videos of the original batf attack on the bd church did anyone happen to see batf agents on the highest structure where koresh s room was i don t recall seeing batf agents higher than the roof of the lowest structures so i made an assumption that batf helos did the firing down into the tower any other info on how the rounds came through the roof
talk.politics.guns	re clinton joins list of genocidal socialist leaders in apr starbase trincoll edu writes i ve yet to meet a group of baptists who were stockpiling cambell s soup and m s ar s and banging marrying thirteen yuear olds you re a sorry son of a bitch if you can t draw a distinction between these two things people like you cheapen our constitution by using it to defend sociopaths who aren t deserved of it get a life and chill on the paranoia i am not a paranoid nor a government toady nor even am i the guy you were talking to originally but i think you are simply not paying attention a bunch of people living off by themselves with a lot of guns nearby is not that wierd in texas my own family very quiet taxpayers with extremely con ventional views has something like rifles and shotguns in a two person home some of them were mine but i don t live there anymore i now have my own shotgun in my apartment texas child protective services which loves to find child abuse found no i repeat no evidence of abuse when they first looked at the bd and is saying that they see none in any of the kids who were released there is no evidence that koresh was banging anyone but his wives it is not against the law to stockpile most weapons or campbell s soup nor is there any hard evidence in the form of actual hardware as i write this to prove the bd really had any proscribed weapons i feel they were all loonies but there is no indication that they ever bothered anyone they were gone after in the wrong ways for the wrong reasons and the batf and fbi who are so busy trumpeting this child abuse angle hasn t got a leg to stand on or any right to be involved in such abuse cases anyway if there was any real danger of the bd s going out on a rampage then that is up to the officers of the state of texas who are probably getting a per verse bit of pleasure at getting to torque the feds for fucking up something in their state semper fi jammer jim miller texas a m university and i don t speak for uh which is too bad because they could use the help become one with the student billing system be the student billing system power finds its way to those who take a stand stand up ordinary man rik emmet gil moore mike levine triumph
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch update in article c vgme goa usenet ucs indiana edu wwarf silver ucs indiana edu wayne j warf writes in article c v fv krt news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes in article c uhuo awq usenet ucs indiana edu wwarf silver ucs indiana edu wayne j warf writes in article nate psygate psych indiana edu nate psygate psych indiana edu nathan engle writes yeah as information trickles in funny how that works funny yeah funny how you didn t wait for the fbi spokesdroid latest reversal of facts before proclaiming the bd s burned themselves to death if you won t believe anything the government says and the press is not reliable according to the same logic then what do you base your statements on wild speculation laced with a healthy dose of paranoia are you a moron or just illiterate the facts that the fbi neither proclaimed on monday suddenly weren t facts anymore by the tuesday press conference you don t have to pay attention to any one source neither do you have to abandon your critical thinking but to disregard all sources of information as lies and distortions and substitute your own pet theories is more likely to get you wild untruths than by basing your theories on the facts as they are reported by the media and the government there has beed no evidence of anyone setting the fire deliberately you simpleton so actually there was evidence of the fire being set deliberately both testamony by the survivors and ir tape showing the fire being set in places and the petrochemical soot that the fire was giving off indications of kerosine or gasoline feeding the fire you might not believe or if you are totally paranoid or very skeptical but my rd point is visible to anyone who watches the tapes of the fire and has started a bbq grill what are you basing your statements on oh i forgot you re the guy that doesn t know microwave oven need electricity never mind ho ho ho i listen to npr watch cnn nbc i also read the papers where do you get yours personal opinions why brent irvine yes what did you think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu they were
talk.politics.guns	re fbi director s statement on waco standoff that s the bd side of the story the other is that d koresh met agents at the door with a weapon remember the affidavit indicates that koresh had spent on assault weapons in the past year and now we know that the bunker adjacent to the house is thigh deep with a million rounds of ammunition the news statement was that there was worth of firearms and ammunition no mention of assault weapons on the premises not that koresh had purchased them what would his crime be if he had this averages to about per person not an astronomical number we don t know that there is a thigh deep pile of a million rounds we know that the fbi says there is a pile of a million rounds this is the first i ve heard that koresh was identified as being at the door with a weapon
talk.politics.guns	re your evil tax dollars at work was re atf burns ranch etc etc mark mark sachs mbs psuvm psu edu wrote oh then why did the smoke and flames start from three different places in particular three different places where there were no apv s the crushed remains of a pressurized propane tank were found in the ruins of the bd compound the key word is pressurized when that baby was crushed the gas would have gone all over the place and when ignited would look just like the pictures of the explosion we saw on the tv news ammo doesn t go up all at once kind of like fireworks going off propane gas goes off in a big fireball gee that s kind of consistent with what the pictorial history shows hmmmmm and if the government did start the fire then why weren t people trying to get out of the compound remember pressurized gas people all over the building conflagration in less than a minute huge explosion gas masks being worn by the inhabitants makes a lot of sense that very few of those on the inside would even know that the tank was damaged if they thought it was just a normal fire they would probably be trying to put it out then boom the fireball after that explosion and concussion i doubt anybody on the inside of the building was capable of moving and besides oh i don t know why i m even bothering good question take an objective look at what happened listen to the things that the fbi said the bd s started the fire the bd s bodies were found with gunshot wounds that are now being refuted by the evidence being recovered seems that the fbi is deliberately making statements that have no rational basis in fact and trying to make them sound like fact i find it tremendously chilling that so many people seem eager to believe a murderous heavily armed religious cult despite much evidence to the contrary thought experiment suppose this exact same thing happened under the bush administration what would your answer be then would you still prefer to believe the cultists yes i would still believe that the fbi and the batf were on a non stop string of lies and half truths this is consistent with their operations on numerous occasions and as for the bd s being murderous they did not cause any problems until they were assaulted by the batf so now a thought experiment for you if the batf had never stormed that farm would four agents and bd s be dead today no i don t really expect a response to that challenge but then again that is how mr clinton was elected by people who believe that his campaign promisses would be respected by him once he got into office um isn t that how all politicians are elected yes that is how politicians are elected kind of scary isn t it now if we as a people actually held mr clinton to his promises instead of apologizing and denying that he ever made them and actually expected accountability by our government i doubt that debacles like waco would happen as often as they do so is there any particular reason the gummint decided to slaughter eighty people are they like just plain evil or what did they just wake up one day stretch and yawn and throw a dart at a map of the united states to figure out who to oppress that day i m eager to know acutally no the batf has a rather checkered history of staging raids of this sort just prior to the time when their budget comes up for review oddly enough their budget was about to be reviewed just two weeks after the initial raid on the bd s coincidence i think not and as for the fire what happened was caused by the act of knocking over walls with an armored vehicle of destruction the fbi tried to convince the world it was suicide but all of the facts that are coming out by the investigation of the texas rangers and medical examiners point to a gas explosion and quick fire that decimated all of the occupants of the building sounds to me like a law enforcement agency that is trying to cover its ass and does bill clinton have cooler theme music than darth vader how is he on diabolical laughter does he look good in a cape these things must be investigated you first oh please if you want to argue argue if you merely want to demean those who see this differently than you then please go somewhere else mark sachs is mbs psuvm psu edu keith marchington
talk.politics.guns	re bd s did themselves you re all paranoid freaks in article apr starbase trincoll edu writes in article r p oinn hi clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras wrote i have not made up my mind about waco but there sure seems to be a group of devoted government following fanatics willing to believe whatever that government wants to tell them without any shred of doubt nor thought of thier own they sure get shrill whenever their belief structure is being shaken kinda reminds you of the bds doesn t it jim go to hell i m no government following fanatic your sweeping generalizations evince your own ignorance what were they supposed to do just let him be fuck him fuck the atf too they should ve done it right the first time joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu this is apparently what passes for intelligent discourse at trinity joe fbi cultist kusmierczak gets angry when its pointed out that the fbi has told him is a lie the mounting evidence is that they ve lied about almost every detail of except that they were there what can you expect of cultists like him somebody oughtta burn him out and if he s trapped well good riddance right joe wayne j warf wwarf ucs indiana edu i speak for myself only clinton gore cia fbi dea assassinate bomb wod bor atf irs resist nsa christian god satan apocalypse zog nazi socialist communist explosive fundamentalist revolution nsc federal reserve constitution gold fema
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article apr icd ab com kdw icd ab com kenneth d whitehead writes dusek rtsg mot com james p dusek writes if the fbi started the fire why didn t people flee the burning building could be a lot of reasons james we won t know until the survivors are allowed to speak for themselves rather than through an fbi spokesman some of the survivors have been interviewed on tv as they were going to or returning from court they basically said no way was there any kind of suicide pact or attempt remember the texas holocaust
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch update in article r klv f transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article c v fv krt news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes in article c uhuo awq usenet ucs indiana edu wwarf silver ucs indiana edu wayne j warf writes in article nate psygate psych indiana edu nate psygate psych indiana edu nathan engle writes yeah as information trickles in funny how that works funny yeah funny how you didn t wait for the fbi spokesdroid latest reversal of facts before proclaiming the bd s burned themselves to death if you won t believe anything the government says and the press is not reliable according to the same logic then what do you base your statements on wild speculation laced with a healthy dose of paranoia funny brent but so far we have heard two versions of the facts what the government says this includes what the government says that two survivors have said what koresh s lawyer who was actually inside the compound says including what he says that most of the survivors have said strange but they seem to disagree in most important particulars if anyone has actually seen news reports of any of the survivors speaking first hand feel free ot pitch in i may have missed it but my money is that their story will sound a hell of a lot like case and not at all like case since neither side would be particularly interested in telling the truth you have to weigh the facts given by each yourself and weigh it with the newsreporting if you care many cult members will probably side with the attorney and if he is lying change their stories to match his and if the feds also lie the cult members who become disillusioned will change their stories to match the feds neither sides are interested in the truth the media is more interested but usually either don t have the time to get it straight or tie themselves to the ratings and deliberately distort for me though the black soot billowing outside the compound added with how fast the fire spread ponted to someone dousing large parts of the compound with some sort of gasoline or fire starter i doubt the feds did that as they were more interested in arresting vernon the real unbalanced one at least the one that lost his cool was vernon so i figured that he was more likely to do it after all he was jesus being persecuted by the authorities and had followers to hold onto so made the decision he and his followers also probably felt that they were rocketing to heaven by doing this stuff thsi conclusion i came to after umpteen million hours of listening to npr and other radio shows i always have the radio going when i am in my office on some innocuous talk show or news program as background noise personal opinions why brent irvine yes what did you think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu they were
talk.politics.guns	re bd s did themselves you re all paranoid freaks wrote in article r p oinn hi clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras wrote i have not made up my mind about waco but there sure seems to be a group of devoted government following fanatics willing to believe whatever that government wants to tell them without any shred of doubt nor thought of thier own they sure get shrill whenever their belief structure is being shaken kinda reminds you of the bds doesn t it jim go to hell i m no government following fanatic your sweeping generalizations evince your own ignorance what were they supposed to do just let him be yes given the history of the bd s and the fact that they were just peacefully minding their own business i think this would have been the correct course of action in the very beginning everything that followed was a direct result of the major media fuck up that the batf perpetrated just over days ago fuck him fuck the atf too they should ve done it right the first time joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu yep no doubt about it they should have just bombed those kooks right from the git go yeah sure so much for any resemblence to an america that abides by the constitution so much for feeling safe in your home so much for any of the rights enumerated in the bill of rights being upheld why bother they just get in the way of an effective government that is a government of the elite by the elite for the elite joe attitudes like yours frighten me you have very few facts about what actually happened and what information you do have came from a single source the fbi batf yet you are more than happy to pronounce the bd s guilty as charged based on this one sided testimony scary keith marchington
talk.politics.guns	re feds caught in another lie in article apr icd ab com kdw icd ab com kenneth d whitehead writes well after days of hearing that of the bd bodies had been shot in the head horrors another jonestown crazed cultists child abusers whackos in waco last night the medical examiner was on tv and was pretty vehement in denying that any of them had bullet wounds he seemed just a tad upset at the feds for having spread that rumor aw gee he shouldn t be so hard on them they re just practicing the new principle of flexible reality that their big boss has implemented before long i think all the kneejerk government apologists are going to start getting pretty pissed off at how easily they were misled two notes of interest from texas the tarrant couonty me who is doing the autopsies is well known for rendering judgements that are contrary to the police view he presented evidence a few years ago that a man who police said was pointing a gun at them actually had his hands in the air this does not bode well for the boys in black the texas dept of public saftey and the texas rangers have no great love for the atf i have heard them referred to as those fucking cowboys the dps was totally squeezed out of the bd operation and resented being left as traffic cops atf now has two strikes against them finally i guess that makes three notes rumour from waco is that four atf agents were stopped by four waco police cars and a dps trooper after one of the flashed an automatic weapon at a cop lots of pissed of cops and you wonder why there were so few cops really cheering on the atf dillon pyron the opinions expressed are those of the ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated when i m here when i m home texans vote no on robin hood we need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions not gestures padi dm
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article dusek shale dusek rtsg mot com james p dusek writes ccdarg dct ac uk alan greig writes or the cultists i think i ll quote the bbc quoting actually voice interview one of the two british survivors he claimed that the fire started when the tanks caused an internal wooden wall roof to collapse knocking over kerosene lamps and that they had no suicide plan if the fbi started the fire why didn t people flee the burning building in this case it was unimportant as to who set the fire the davidians would have burned no matter what especially if the batf fbi set the fire as this would make the beseiged martyrs to vernon howell and therefore rocket to heaven a few comments from the remaining davidians scattered throughout the country seemed to confirm this theory one cult member said that she wished that she had been there and that now she would have to wait for vernon to return for them she actually seemed upset that she did not burn with them while i think that vernon started the fire his followers anyway it is incidental to their reaction personal opinions why brent irvine yes what did you think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu they were
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article scottj iamac dml georgetown edu scottj magic dml georgetown edu john l scott writes in article dusek shale dusek rtsg mot com james p dusek wrote if the fbi started the fire why didn t people flee the burning building okay james tell you what i ll but you in a building with other people i ll put you in a highly tense situation i ll subject you to sleep deprivation remove your utilities march tanks back in forth in front of you play recordings of tortured rabbits at high volume shine bright lights in your windows threaten to attack you at any time and cut you off from the outside world all for weeks at a time then i ll begin to smash in the building you re in destroying passages and stairs and spreading debris everywhere at the same time i ll pump in massive quantities of nasty tear gas for six hours stop it enough i m out of there i mean i m a relatively sane person god knows i m weak and will forgive me but i m not stupid enough to stay in this place any longer i want out you ll be holed up in a small area with sweaty people on a hot day then the building will fill with smoke and become a inferno people in a small room will try to leave with you and jim if you don t make it out won t you agree that it must be because you wanted to die besides nine people did successfully flee the fire yeah and at least one person ran back in sounds like a personal choice to me religious fanaticsm and a beleive that dying in the defense of your beliefs is probably at the core of what happened in waco we in the west tend to disregard fanaticsm of the type displayed by many moslem fundamentalist groups who see nothing wrong with dying for their beliefs convictions i suspect that this same type of fanaticsm was displayed by the bds but we ll probably never know karl
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article isgtec isgtec com robert isgtec com robert osborne writes michael frederick rhein mfrhein wpi wpi edu wrote in article aej d cmuvm bitnet aej d cmuvm bitnet writes napalm then let the wood stove inside ignite it as someone else has pointed out why would the stove be in use on a warm day in texas not that i agree with the original theory or anything buuuuut since their utilities were turned off they might be using wood stoves to cook their meals but they also might have run out of fire wood maybe chopping up furnature they also may not have been cooking but eating mres and other delicacies stored for just such an occation just a thought brent yes i am well aware that their electricity was cut thanks to the hundreds of e mail messages and replies to my post irvine personal opinions why brent irvine yes what did you think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu they were
talk.politics.guns	re waco clinton press conference part in article apr edt neat cs toronto edu quoctp cs toronto edu quoc tuan pham writes xref nntpd cxo dec com misc legal talk politics guns alt activism path nntpd cxo dec com pa dec com decwrl ames agate howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut utcsri relay cs toronto edu neat cs toronto edu cs toronto edu quoctp newsgroups misc legal talk politics guns alt activism from quoctp cs toronto edu quoc tuan pham subject re waco clinton press conference part message id apr edt neat cs toronto edu organization department of computer science university of toronto references apr r node hub org date apr gmt lines did anyone notice that clinton was smiling and making jokes just before this press conference considering the number of people killed this seems very inappropriate to me or did anyone notice that when clinton referred to the davidians as religious fanatics that a round of spontaneous applause burst forth from the reporters to me this was not only in poor taste but it showed the media s bias and hostility to anyone not of the politically correct stripe no wonder they have been cheerleading for the kgbatf and the fbi during this whole affair rod it collectivism vs individualism is an ancient conflict men have come close to the truth but it was destroyed each time and one civilization fell after another civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy the savage s whole existence is public ruled by the laws of his tribe civilization is the process of setting man free from men ayn rand roark s speech from the fountainhead i don t speak for my company we hire the politically correct to do that
talk.politics.guns	re two questions in article bb f pa utkvm utk edu pa utkvm utk edu david veal writes in article bb c sbanka vm temple edu sbanka vm temple edu writes i d appreciate any help anyone could give me on these two questions the brady bill was in the news throughout but what actually happened to it in congress did bush veto it if so when the brady bill passed the house in but failed to reach a vote in the senate as such it never reached bush sarah brady s condemnation not withstanding i have a joint house senate conference committe report i e crime bill for the rd congress which contains a brady bill day waiting period within it i believe it just died and never came up for a vote in either house it ll probably pass the house again and will probably pass the senate if they can get it to a vote whether of not they ll be busy with other things will be the question they got four years of clinton s support to pass it larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
talk.politics.guns	re some more about gun control on tue apr gmt pete zakel phz cadence com wrote in article apr mtu edu cescript mtu edu charles scripter writes you didn t even get the capitalization correct try reading usca on the constitution or get any other correct version of the constitution this is really stupid nitpicking capitalization rules in the late th century were quite different from today and what was posted matches current capitalization rules pete zakel is right we don t need to worry about capitalization rules after all the punctuation gives all the necessary information about the sentence structure why should anyone worry about whether the text is as close to the original as possible sarcasm intended in the original constitution militia arms etc were capitalized simply because they were nouns this is also done currently in german there is no special significance to these words simply because they are capitalized the capitalization denotes no special emphasis then you didn t understand my grumble again i said to get a correct version of the constitution the first indicator that something is wrong i e the copy has been modernized is the modern capitalization rules the next thing to go is the spelling and then i ve even seen versions where the grammar was modernized oh but don t worry modernizing the grammar won t change the meaning of the text right p s i have found about different versions of the constitution on the network and accuracy does matter charles scripter cescript phy mtu edu dept of physics michigan tech houghton mi when all government in little as in great things shall be drawn to washington as the centre of all power it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated thomas jefferson
talk.politics.guns	re what to do if you shoot somebody in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes i have heard many opinions on this subject and would like to hear more from the people on the net say you re in a situation where you have to pull a gun on somebody you give them a chance to get away but they decided to continue in their action anyway and you end up shooting and killing them my question is what do you do should you stay and wait for the cops or should you collect your brass if you re using a semi auto and get out of there provided of course you don t think that you have been seen what kind of laws are on the books regarding this type of situation what would be the most likely thing to happen to you if you stayed and waited and it was a first offense what would happen if you took off but someone saw you and you were caught in massachusetts you will likely be arrested for murder but if you convince the cops da that you used lethal force because of threat of death or serious bodily harm then the charges would probably be dropped if you run away and are later caught then you will have a much harder time convincing cops judge jury of your innocence going on the lam is seen as an indication of guilt by a lot of people jim lacey my own opinions email att cbnewsl jlacey or jlacey cbnewsl cb att com d ou venons nous que sommes nous ou allons nous
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article r vg rl bigboote wpi edu mfrhein wpi wpi edu michael frederick rhein writes napalm then let the wood stove inside ignite it for heating purposes because of the weather in texas everyone now claims that it was for cooking stop and think about this this whole thread is rediculous who cares if they had a stove going or not does it matter if they had a stove burning or lanterns burning or candles burning or someone smoking etc etc etc the premise is that the fbi was filling the house with napalm so that it would catch fire this is crazy fbi was not pumping napalm into the davidians home you will have to have pretty damn strong evidence to convince me of that i can believe mass suicide murder by koresh i can believe an accident by the davidians i can believe an accident by the fbi i can easily believe mass stupidity on all sides but i can not believe that the fbi lit this fire intentionally no way chris bartz chrisb natinst com
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch update in article c y lj at news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes in article c vgme goa usenet ucs indiana edu wwarf silver ucs indiana edu wayne j warf writes in article c v fv krt news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes in article c uhuo awq usenet ucs indiana edu wwarf silver ucs indiana edu wayne j warf writes in article nate psygate psych indiana edu nate psygate psych indiana edu nathan engle writes yeah as information trickles in funny how that works funny yeah funny how you didn t wait for the fbi spokesdroid latest reversal of facts before proclaiming the bd s burned themselves to death if you won t believe anything the government says and the press is not reliable according to the same logic then what do you base your statements on wild speculation laced with a healthy dose of paranoia then post what the press has said not what you wished they said the medical examiner has refuted the fbi facts and if you don t believe someone who has a lot more reason to be impartial then what do you have to say for yourself are you a moron or just illiterate the facts that the fbi neither i was willing to grant this for sake or argument until i read the following proclaimed on monday suddenly weren t facts anymore by the tuesday press conference you don t have to pay attention to any one source neither do you have to abandon your critical thinking but to disregard all sources of information as lies and distortions and substitute your own pet theories is more likely to get you wild untruths than by basing your theories on the facts as they are reported by the media and the government the facts as reported by the press and impartial government sources support me there has beed no evidence of anyone setting the fire deliberately you simpleton so actually there was evidence of the fire being set deliberately both testamony by the survivors and ir tape showing the fire being set in places and the petrochemical soot that the fire was giving off indications of kerosine or gasoline feeding the fire there is no testimony at the press conference the fbi said they had no testimony the survivors as reported by cnn and newsday wire service said that all the survivors gave consistent stories refuting the fbi they were lighting and heating with kerosine are you trying to prove you re an idiot you might not believe or if you are totally paranoid or very skeptical but my rd point is visible to anyone who watches the tapes of the fire and has started a bbq grill what are you basing your statements on oh i forgot you re the guy that doesn t know microwave oven need electricity never mind ho ho ho i listen to npr watch cnn nbc i also read the papers where do you get yours then open your eyes and ears at least of those sources have reported your full of shit personal opinions why brent irvine yes what did you think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu they were wayne j warf wwarf ucs indiana edu i speak for myself only clinton gore cia fbi dea assassinate bomb wod bor atf irs resist nsa christian god satan apocalypse zog nazi socialist communist explosive fundamentalist revolution nsc federal reserve constitution gold fema
talk.politics.guns	re fbi director s statement on waco standoff the branch davidians were not violent and were not planning to start violence when the bd compound was assaulted by the atf the bd did fire back but they agreed to a cease fire and they allowed the atf to care for their wounded the bd even released the atf agents they captured it is clear from the release of the agents and allowing the atf medical attention that the bd were not looking for trouble if the bd were violent they would have held the atf agents as hostages they would not have released them like they did if they had kept the agents hostage they could have used them as bargening chips for medical attention etc a big thing is being made of the bd collection of weapons but no one has shown that they had any plans to use them it is also apparent that the bd did not have any military training if they had they could have dug bunkers and trenches and increased their fortifications they could have shot out the lights and speakers it appears that the bd were not violent they shot back at the attacking atf agents out of panic there were shots fired on the last day but they were in response to the fbi attack on the compound with armor all the violence in waco was initiated by the federal agents not the bd rod anderson n nzo the only acceptable substitute boulder co for brains is silence rcanders nyx cs du edu solomon short satellite n nzo on ao
talk.politics.guns	waco fire flash over is a frequent occurrence with indoor fires a fire will start small and in one location and heat the air the temperature in the room builds up and then everything inflammable in the room catches fire at once this may have occurred in the bd compound i have heard reports that the windows were covered which would permit a fire to start unnoticed by those outside the compound when the fire got big enough and broke through the walls it appeared to be started in two places but was really one big fire because of the large quantities of tear gas inserted into the building it is possible that many of the women and children were in a room free of tear gas they would try to seal the door to keep out the tear gas when they learned that a fire had broken out it was too late for them to escape they were trapped by the flames in their safe room i find it hard to believe that the fbi was not recording the final assault i think that they would have wanted to have tapes to show their agents of the the fbi overcoming the forces of evil aka the branch davidians the tapes would also allow the fbi to prove that they were not using excessive force rod anderson n nzo the only acceptable substitute boulder co for brains is silence rcanders nyx cs du edu solomon short satellite n nzo on ao
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch update in article c y b mg news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes for me though the black soot billowing outside the compound added with how fast the fire spread ponted to someone dousing large parts of the compound with some sort of gasoline or fire starter just from experience seeing a couple of houses burn down one doesn t need any accelerant to get a lot of black soot there s plenty of stuff in a house that will burn dirty even the asphalt shingles would make a really sooty smoke al standard disclaimer
talk.politics.guns	re clinton joins list of genocidal socialist leaders in article hydra gatech edu gt a prism gatech edu cochrane james shapleigh writes btw if i screwed up bad enough to get someone hurt killed my co the pms probably the brigade commander and possibly the region commander could all expect a good amount of heat possibly including reassignment or seperationfrom service certainly the pms would not be promotable and would shortly thereafter be asked to retire this is called accountability if my pms knew beforehand about the activities in which a person was killed he would be nailed for failing to ensure that proper safety measures were taken if he didn t know he would be nailed for improper supervision can we hold the president of the us to lower standards than his subordinates after all he was briefed on the fbi raid he could have asked how they intended to flush the bd s out the president is not competent to plan or judge the planning of such a raid nor does he need to be his job is to set basic policies and manage the people under him if clinton instructed reno to preserve lives and if she confirmed that the plan for the raid was a safe as could be then he did his job the president should not involve himself in the minor details of these kinds of operations this sort of micromanagement only leads to disaster as was demonstrated so well in vietnam but the raid went bad over civilians have been killed in a controntation with u s authorities now clinton enters the picture in a big way will clinton start an investigation or will he try to squash any attempt to investigate is he a responsible leader or is he only interested in protecting the image of his administration we ll all find out as this unfolds mark draughn draughn iitmax iit edu or sysmark iitvax on bitnet academic computing illinois institute of technology w st street chicago illinois
talk.politics.guns	re effectiveness calibre jtchew csa lbl gov ad absurdum per aspera writes from psc sei cmu edu peter capell on rec martial arts i m sure such weapons have been developed our society does not however condone their possession or use actually joe i wrote the above peter was responding to my article i m actually rather confused by your post i suppose i didn t make myself clear cause you seem to have gotten exactly the opposite impression from what i intended i suppose the authorities might have been a better term than society carry and use a firearm in many parts of the country certainly the parts i live in and expect at the very least to have an awful lot of explaining to do and there is also appears to be a trend in society at large that actively opposes what many see as their right to defend themselves in a few other parts of our society handguns are banned or so restricted as to be practically unavailable to the law abiding citizen for self defense outside the home funny though how the criminals in such places continue to have a lush supply of guns and no compunctions about using them imho you don t need to be either a political philosopher or a crime victim to realize that there s a flaw in the gun grabbers logic agreed you re welcome to your ho too the first amendment being as important as the second but please don t let your obvious good intentions be subverted by insupportable generalities about something as big and diverse as us society my only intention was to comment that the existence of suitable weapons of self defense doesn t mean you ll escape a whole shitload of trouble should you be forced to use them or by the naive hope that making gun possession a crime will give pause to someone who would be a criminal anyway i made no such statements nor do i have such a naive hope or outlook wishing you peace and the wherewithal to defend yourself if others thoughts are not that kindly that s all i want the opportunity to leave in peace or to have the means to defend myself when that in not possible i think we agree on this issue i guess my position didn t survive the transition from cognition to ascii garry hodgson a slow winter day at t bell labs a night like forever garry alice att com sink like a stone att alice garry float like a feather
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors karl auerbach writes besides nine people did successfully flee the fire yeah and at least one person ran back in sounds like a personal choice to me religious fanaticsm and a beleive that dying in the defense of your beliefs is probably at the core of what happened in waco religious fanaticism people try to get back in all the time when their homes are afire firefighters often have to restrain them they want to rush back in in an effort to save things old photos keepsakes stamp collections cash books jewelery pets their wives and husbands their babies
talk.politics.guns	re change of name i suggest another name change thomas parsli to vidkun quisling
talk.politics.guns	re bd s did themselves you re all paranoid freaks in article apr starbase trincoll edu writes in article r p oinn hi clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras wrote i have not made up my mind about waco but there sure seems to be a group of devoted government following fanatics willing to believe whatever that government wants to tell them without any shred of doubt nor thought of thier own they sure get shrill whenever their belief structure is being shaken kinda reminds you of the bds doesn t it jim go to hell i m no government following fanatic your sweeping generalizations evince your own ignorance what were they supposed to do just let him be fuck him fuck the atf too they should ve done it right the first time what is doing it right the first time murdered them all used tanks maybe they should have had enough evidence to indict from the list presented to date i haven t seen anything illegal they claim that the bd s bought components to convert their weapons to class iii devices but no evidence that they had done so in fact with a class iii ffl living with them this may have been legal given recent court rulings what you really meant to say was that the atf should have done the right and lwaful thing or did you just want the bd s dead dillon pyron the opinions expressed are those of the ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated when i m here when i m home texans vote no on robin hood we need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions not gestures padi dm
talk.politics.guns	re clipper chip in article apr news columbia edu pes cunixf cc columbia edu paul eric stoufflet writes i thought that the clipper chip that was posted to t p g sorry i lost the original post was a joke i really did i didn t believe it for a second but on the way to work this morning i heard about it on npr no joke here s another copy for you to save npr hmmm did they mention the part about the fact of law enforcement access to the escrowed keys will not be concealed from the american public newsgroups talk politics guns path dg rtp psinntp uunet news claremont edu elroy jpl nasa gov sdd hp com decwrl pa dec com uiboise idbsu edu blh from blh uiboise idbsu edu broward l horne message id aa inet gw pa dec com subject heil clinton date sun apr mdt x received by usenet pa dec com id aa mon apr x received by inet gw pa dec com id aa mon apr x received by uiboise idbsu edu id aa sun apr x to talk politics guns usenet x mailer elm revision lines although the subject matter of this re posting is not directly related to talk politics guns i believe that the information here will be of interest to a large number of readers especially considering our latest batf escapade from clipper csrc ncsl nist gov clipper chip announcement subject white house public encryption management fact sheet message id c lgaz dove nist gov sender news dove nist gov organization national institute of standards technology distribution na date fri apr gmt lines note the following was released by the white house today in conjunction with the announcement of the clipper chip encryption technology fact sheet public encryption management the president has approved a directive on public encryption management the directive provides for the following advanced telecommunications and commercially available encryption are part of a wave of new computer and communications technology encryption products scramble information to protect the privacy of communications and data by preventing unauthorized access advanced telecommunications systems use digital technology to rapidly and precisely handle a high volume of communications these advanced telecommunications systems are integral to the infrastructure needed to ensure economic competitiveness in the information age despite its benefits new communications technology can also frustrate lawful government electronic surveillance sophisticated encryption can have this effect in the united states when exported abroad it can be used to thwart foreign intelligence activities critical to our national interests in the past it has been possible to preserve a government capability to conduct electronic surveillance in furtherance of legitimate law enforcement and national security interests while at the same time protecting the privacy and civil liberties of all citizens as encryption technology improves doing so will require new innovative approaches in the area of communications encryption the u s government has developed a microcircuit that not only provides privacy through encryption that is substantially more robust than the current government standard but also permits escrowing of the keys needed to unlock the encryption the system for the escrowing of keys will allow the government to gain access to encrypted information only with appropriate legal authorization to assist law enforcement and other government agencies to collect and decrypt under legal authority electronically transmitted information i hereby direct the following action to be taken installation of government developed microcircuits the attorney general of the united states or her representative shall request manufacturers of communications hardware which incorporates encryption to install the u s government developed key escrow microcircuits in their products the fact of law enforcement access to the escrowed keys will not be concealed from the american public all appropriate steps shall be taken to ensure that any existing or future versions of the key escrow microcircuit are made widely available to u s communications hardware manufacturers consistent with the need to ensure the security of the key escrow system in making this decision i do not intend to prevent the private sector from developing or the government from approving other microcircuits or algorithms that are equally effective in assuring both privacy and a secure key escrow system key escrow the attorney general shall make all arrangements with appropriate entities to hold the keys for the key escrow microcircuits installed in communications equipment in each case the key holder must agree to strict security procedures to prevent unauthorized release of the keys the keys shall be released only to government agencies that have established their authority to acquire the content of those communications that have been encrypted by devices containing the microcircuits the attorney general shall review for legal sufficiency the procedures by which an agency establishes its authority to acquire the content of such communications procurement and use of encryption devices the secretary of commerce in consultation with other appropriate u s agencies shall initiate a process to write standards to facilitate the procurement and use of encryption devices fitted with key escrow microcircuits in federal communications systems that process sensitive but unclassified information i expect this process to proceed on a schedule that will permit promulgation of a final standard within six months of this directive the attorney general will procure and utilize encryption devices to the extent needed to preserve the government s ability to conduct lawful electronic surveillance and to fulfill the need for secure law enforcement communications further the attorney general shall utilize funds from the department of justice asset forfeiture super surplus fund to effect this purchase
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article mgb slacvm slac stanford edu mgb slacvm slac stanford edu writes from a p according to numerous accounts by those in the compound the fire was started by an armoured vehicle crushing a large propane tank and turning over numerous gas lanterns if there was a large propane tank and it was breached don t you think that there would be an identifiable explosion further the bd members have as much reason to lie as the gov t medical examiners have found no bullet wounds as was stated by the fbi on the corpses they d only autopsied one body when this information was released i wouldn t doubt though i find it tremendously chilling that so many people seem willing to accept the governments story despite much evidence to the contrary the only evidence that exists right now at least what we know about is various claims and counter claims i m waiting until the hard evidence is released what about you mitchell s todd mst zeus tamu edu
talk.politics.guns	re fbi director s statement on waco standoff in article c w c d intellection com emcguire intellection com ed mcguire writes in apr aio jsc nasa gov news aio jsc nasa gov usenet news brenda kenworthy writes and another thing that puzzles me why are they finding dead bodies inside who had bullet holes already in them don t you think it s possible that koresh shot the traitors rather than letting them out possible i wouldn t put it past him it is also possible that they were hit by rounds exploding in the extreme heat remember that kept the cops away for hours i have only heard that bodies were found shot not any coroner s cause of death so far the medical examiner according to the news has found no evidence of gunshot wounds in bodies so far examined if this continues to be the case it will sort of shoot holes pun intended in the fbi story wouldn t it and cartridges going off outside a firearm do not launch a bullet like they do when fired from a gun the bullet hardly moves it is the brass casing that goes flying and then with less than lethal force it will hurt yes but not kill you i doubt if it wil penetrate a coat for example how about an independent investigation with full subpoena powers and powers to prosecute on felony charges to investigate for any possible illegal criminal activity on the part of both the batf and fbi i cannot see any reason why not to use the phrase they like to use so often if they have nothing to hide they should welcome it and vigorously support it note that an internal investigation by the dept of justice is not an independent investigation pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article c tenu f ns nodak edu green plains nodak edu bill green writes could it have been possible to have taken koresh outside the compound at some time before the feb th raid yes the local sheriff stated that anytime he wanted to talk to koresh all he had to do was call him and koresh would come down one other point i m no fan of janet reno but i do like the way she had the balls to go ahead and take full responsibility seems like the waffle boy had problems figuring out just where he stood on the issue full agree with you here i think its ridiculous that he did not even talk to janet reno until sometime tuesday however he did talk with wendell hubbel so who really is the attorney general hopefully the investigation will answer some of these bizarre questions katie
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article r vg rl bigboote wpi edu mfrhein wpi wpi edu michael frederick rhein writes to rob and all others that have been debating about the wood stove the original post claimed that the atf fbi was pumping napalm into the building with the hopes that the wood stove inside would ignite it i responed with why would the wood stove be lit in the first place it wouldn t be lit for heating purposes because of the weather in texas which statement is dead wrong because our local posters have confirmed that it was quite chilly that morning everyone now claims that it was for cooking no we argue that it was not entirely unreasonable for a woodstove to be operational stop and think about this cs gas was being pumped into the building and i presume that everyone was wearing gas masks either bought or some type of makeshift type and this had been going on for hours i don t know if you have ever been around cs but i have being exposed to cs gas was part of my army training so i know that without a mask it very uncomfortable and makes your eyes water nose run and makes you sick in the stomach and with the mask it is very difficult to drink water much less eat so my question now is why were they cooking food obviously you missed my earlier posting about the physica of woodstoves in brief you can t turn your woodstove on and off like your gas range it stays on all the time it even stays on for over hours after you shut it off which is why most working woodstoves aren t ever shut off until spring cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re arlen specter s address in article apr nntpd lkg dec com williams bagels enet dec com bryan h williams writes in article bb c d r vmcms csuohio edu r vmcms csuohio edu writes in article apr icd ab com kdw icd ab com kenneth d whitehead writes anybody got arlen spectre s address i want to write to him and thank him for showing the leadership to demand a congressional investigation into the waco mess if i had arlen s address i would go to his house do weasels live in houses or in holes and personally tell him what a pathetic idiot he is arlen is the personification of the word jerk snip i m no fan of arlen spectre s but he did the right thing and attacking his motives in this case is wrong pardon me here but i don t trust spectre s motives here at all spectre was a major part of the warren commission remember the magic bullet theory and is not to be trusted if there s even the tiniest chance the guv mint may have done something wrong if he gets a chance i m afraid he will satisfy the public outcry with another whitewash unfortunately if some of us get our wish and the batf is disbanded or folded into the fbi etc we may end up with a more efficient agency than the bumbling and competition we have today some agents should be fired some should be prosecuted but keep them as bumbling as possible we retain more of our liberties that way right on the money here we should certainly applaud the disbanding of the bartf but we must stress the personal responsibility of the goons who set up the assault on american citizens we must not count on spectre though to get it done rjl rich loether snail mail university of pittsburgh the ideas email rjl pitt edu computing and info services mine voice epsilon drive all fax pittsburgh pa mine
talk.politics.guns	re nature of the waco gas in article apr icd ab com kdw icd ab com kenneth d whitehead writes saw a real interesting report on cnn last night it seems the gas that was used has been banned by international law for military use however our president was quick to point out that there are exemptions for law enforcement hmmm too inhumane to use in war against the enemy but ok for civilians whoa think twice now unless you want the same standards applied to hollowpoints cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re gun buy back in article bb b r vmcms csuohio edu r vmcms csuohio edu writes in article apr rti rti org jbs rti rti org writes in article bb ba a r vmcms csuohio edu r vmcms csuohio edu writes gun buyback programs will hopefully have an impact on accidental shootings especially youths domestic disputes where a gun is available in the heat of emotion and anger and maybe keep a few guns from being stolen and later used in street level crime what gives you the idea that gun buyback programs will have an impact on any of these things evidence please please don t misinterret what i was saying joe i was making the point tha there is no evidence of effect of gun buyback programs but hopefully if there is any effect it may prevent injuries or deaths in one of these types of common incidents saying hopefully the effect of policy x will be y is much different from saying hopefully if there is any effect of policy x it will be y here you ve made both statements if the former describes a reasonably likely outcome of policy x then perhaps policy x is worthy of consideration but the latter statement is not something to base policy decisions on firearms are the fifth leading cause of unintentional deaths among children ages and under according to groups like the center to prevent handgun violence formerly the national coalition to ban handguns interesting name change don t you think who include murder and suicide by firearms in the leading causes of unintentional death figures but don t include murder and suicide by other means as causes of unintentional death can t you see past the bullshit i don t understand how the ratio to other accidental deaths is important so guns don t kill as many children as car accidents what is the difference in severity between deaths and deaths i am not trying to use accidental gun related deaths among children as a justification for gun control who needs to be convinced that accidental gun deaths of children is a serious problem i assumed that any humane person would be concerned when any year old got hold of their parents gun from their bedroom drawer and accidently blew away one of their friends certainly accidental deaths by any cause are serious things but the anti gun groups insist over and over again that accidental death by firearms is a stastically serious problem and even if you don t use these deaths as a justification for gun control these groups do i m sorry if i jumped to conclusions about your reason for mentioning accidental deaths due to firearms being something that warranted concern but in light of your statement that you are a staunch supporter of gun control measures i think the conclusion was a reasonable one the fact remains that tragic though individual accidental gun deaths may be they are not a serious problem statistically speaking please explain why you think symbolic offerings do good my point was gun buyback programs which are almost always run by police departments might i stress might do a little i stress little good by giving people the impression that the police are attempting to respond to interpersonal gun violence in a unique way overall i thought that i had made it clear that i did not think that gun buyback programs were useful sorry if it wasn t clear to me i thought you were waffling on your view of buyback programs with the talk of symbolic offerings and hopefully preventing accidents and heat of passion shootings i have to disagree on all these counts i can t understand how a buying guns from people who aren t intending to misuse them obviously those who want to use guns to commit crimes aren t going to turn them in could be construed as a positive way for police to respond to interpersonal violence i suggest you go back and look at wherever you saw these statistics i suspect you ll find if you look carefully that is the number of students estimated to have carried a weapon not necessarily a gun to school at least once in the past year and not the number of students who carry a gun to school daily well joe i suggest that you talk to the center to prevent handgun violence what the people who publish figures saying that as many children commit suicide by handguns alone each year as the fbi says commit suicide by all methods per year who do you think i should believe the people who call everyone up to age children when they re screaming about the carnage of our nation s children being caused by handguns or the centers for disease control ah yes the agency that considers accidental shootings of children to be such a statistical problem that a stated objective in the healthy people document is to enact laws in states requiring manufacturers of handguns to make the handguns more difficult to fire minimizing the likelihood of accidental or intentional dscharge by children the agency that funded the study of dc which pronounced that the dc gun ban had saved x lives yes they actually gave us a number on the basis of a look at the number of shootings rather than the rate of shootings it wasn t their fault that the population of dc dropped in their post law period if you look carefully you will see that you greatly underestimate the presence of guns in the lives of youths the cphv reports that youth bring guns to school daily and that bring guns to school at least once a year the cdc estimates that out f high school students carried a gun to school at least once in okay i ll concede i no longer have the numbers i once read on these i ll retract my dispute of your numbers however i would be greatly interested in seeing how cphv and cdc came up with these numbers the cdc also says that million elementary aged latch key children kids who come home from school to an empty house have access to guns in their home what s this got to do with anything hell when i was in elementary school i came home to an empty house with guns in it why is this a problem i didn t touch the guns i had been taught not to i had also been taught not to mess with the gasoline in the garage the fuse box the car the knives the oven and the tools the problem is not the guns it s the parents california schools reported a increase in student gun confiscations between and and a increase between and florida reported a percent increase in gun incidents in schools between amd these are the statistics and what are these states doing with the kids they find with guns nothing no criminal prosecution no expulsion in most cases not even suspension they take the gun slap the kids on the wrist say ain t it awful and go on as if everything s back to normal what s wrong with this picture okay maybe i worded it wrong dad i meant that to put children in a situation fortified compound where harm could come to them is not the act of a messiah in my opinion i m not saying that koresh had control over these children directly but i would hope that whatever messiah there is would not let innocent children die i don t think koresh was the messiah either but isn t it obvious that if he believed the forces of evil were come to destroy him then he believed the children were much safer inside the compound i didn t say he was sane just that he behaved in a pretty rational manner given what he thought was going on he thought he had them in the one place where harm wouldn t come to them if as he claimed he was the messiah and people followed him as such why did he not tell their parents to free the children instead of letting them burn alive let s see you try to find the exits unbarricade them and flee a fire when you ve been kept awake for most of days by loudspeakers and subjected to six hours of tanks knocking in your walls and tear gas assault joe
talk.politics.guns	re gun control who needs it in article r f transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes stuff deleted the teflon bullet bill proposed by nra included much more than i think you mean hci here teflon bullets it would have banned damn near all common hunting ammunition we finally did get a bill that outlawed the sale of teflon bullets and only teflon bullets outside the law enforcement community guess who wrote it joe m boy it was your beloved nra snip followups to t p g cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet joe joe preiser at t bell laboratories azoun cormyr att com room ih g cormyr azoun n naperville rd naperville il
talk.politics.guns	re clinton joins list of genocidal socialist leaders from article apr starbase trincoll edu by i ve yet to meet a group of baptists who were stockpiling cambell s soup and m s ar s and banging marrying thirteen yuear sic olds so out of the numerous baptists that you hang around with you haven t seen any of the above behavior which trait stocking food for more than a week or owning a firearm is the definition of a cult what proof aside from david s aquittal leads you to believe that any banging marrying of thirteen year olds was going on does your wife know that you equate marriage with banging you re a sorry son of a bitch if you can t draw a distinction between these two things since this guy doesn t like the concept of freedom of religion he s going to insult you and your mom people like you cheapen our constitution by using it to defend sociopaths who aren t deserved of it get a life and chill on the paranoia sociopath person with asocial or antisocial beahavior sociopaths persons all who can t stand other people sharing the same ranch house joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu it all suddenly becomes clear why does everyone discover the net in the spring random
talk.politics.guns	re bd s did themselves you re all paranoid freaks in article apr starbase trincoll edu writes go to hell i m no government following fanatic your sweeping generalizations evince your own ignorance what were they supposed to do just let him be you re sitting in your home reading a good book your neighbors think you re a quiet upstanding citizen a random person anonymously calls the authorities and tells them you beat your children sleep with all the neighbor wimmen and own a bunch of nasty mm machine guns now what are they supposed to do fuck him fuck the atf too they should ve done it right the first time ah i see they re supposed to send men in horse trailers with automatic weapons storm onto your roof and throw grenades at your house with no warning then after subjecting you to noise torture and telling the national news media for a month what a filthy son of a bitch you are they re supposed to gas you and knock your house around a bit until they manage to collapse it cause a fire or something equally conclusive hope your neighbors don t tumble to this at least none of them that might have a craving for a ringside seat at some cheap but dramatic local entertainment at someone else s expense or maybe even particularly at your expense at least they won t have to read you your rights joe obviously you had no use for them anyway joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in apr rigel tamu edu mst rigel tamu edu writes in article mgb slacvm slac stanford edu mgb slacvm slac stanford edu writes from a p according to numerous accounts by those in the compound the fire was started by an armoured vehicle crushing a large propane tank and turning over numerous gas lanterns if there was a large propane tank and it was breached don t you think that there would be an identifiable explosion there was at least one blast consistent with petroleum products that i saw however propane is interesting stuff it doesn t explode on contact with air it is possible for a tank to rupture without exploding far more likely however is that the compound was equipped with ng outlets running to the tank damage from the cev s could have ruptured the gas lines allowing the gas to spread unnoticed in the cs fumes and general excitement propane typically has a distinctive odor added to it for just this reason to smell leaks until reaching a flame or spark and then whooosh fire everywhere and maybe an explosion use of ng is pretty common in texas especially semi rural areas further the bd members have as much reason to lie as the gov t this is true but so far the fbi batf track record on this incident is very bad i find it tremendously chilling that so many people seem willing to accept the governments story despite much evidence to the contrary the only evidence that exists right now at least what we know about is various claims and counter claims i m waiting until the hard evidence is released what about you i think it would have disarmed many people if the fbi followed this same policy they have not they are making claims without evidence and what evidence we have so far tends to refute their story semper fi jammer jim miller texas a m university and i don t speak for uh which is too bad because they could use the help become one with the student billing system be the student billing system power finds its way to those who take a stand stand up ordinary man rik emmet gil moore mike levine triumph
talk.politics.guns	once upon a time american and european universities were full of angry young people tm that wanted to overthrow the government and wouldn t think twice about lobbing a molotov cocktail at the national guard military police in europe certainly it would have been very bad form to take anything the system tm said at face value this was in the end of the sixties and the begining of the seventies i m told i was too young to remember something wrong happened along the way i m afraid maybe the west became just too comfortable or maybe i was born too late yours disappointed with with the youth of today ps half smilies implied there is a difference between lining up people against the wall and executing them and causing their deaths through negligence imcompetence i honestly hope we witnessed the latter as they say the alternative is too horrible to contemplate i m sure the abused children tm from the compound are much safer now ramiro cgwillme pyr swan ac uk
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article apr rigel tamu edu mst rigel tamu edu mitchell s todd writes if there was a large propane tank and it was breached don t you think that there would be an identifiable explosion from what i saw of the videotape there was an explosion which looked more like one due to propane rather than official version ammunition the only evidence that exists right now at least what we know about is various claims and counter claims i m waiting until the hard evidence is released what about you if only we could be certain that the hard evidence will be released al standard disclaimer
talk.politics.guns	re clinton joins list of genocidal socialist leaders joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu wrote people like you cheapen our constitution by using it to defend sociopaths who aren t deserved of it there it is the constitution isn t for sociopaths only normal people eh we mustn t allow our constitution to be cheapened by applying it to everybody eh you disgust me john l scott
talk.politics.guns	re waco survivors april in article apr zeus tamu edu mst zeus tamu edu mitchell s todd writes david koresh s lawyer seemed to think that everyone would come out peacefully sooner or later the fbi and atf had nothing but time on their hands why did they have to escalate the situation and cause this senseless tragedy their job is to protect the public and save lives not kill people for crying out loud koresh had lied and lied and lied about coming out of the compound to the fbi to his lawyer to just about everyone i keep hearing this but every assertion of this form has come from government sources except two as far as i am concerned i am not ready to stipulate that koresh ever promised to come out except for his first promise and his last promise the first promise was conditional on his audio tape being given national exposure well it never was it was broadcast locally in a chopped up fashion and that s all and even then they cleverly cut it off when it got to the part where he demanded national exposure but not so cleverly that we didn t hear it the last promise was conditional on the finishing of his manuscript we ll never know if he would have kept that one the fbi etc can t wait forever for koresh to come out as long as they thought that koresh s intended to surrender peacefully when they lost hope in that they decided to go in strangely enough the previous day they said they were prepared to wait as long as it takes further while the mondays tactics were silly and clumsy they were obviously intended to drive the davidians out of the compound not to kill koresh and his followers quite possible but arguments of intent do not mark the dividing line between guilt and innocence only the line between murder and negligent manslaughter if it is true i read in the paper that the government listening devices inside the compound picked up orders to burn the joint down shortly before the fire was started i m waiting to see what the tapes really hold this would be an interesting development the davidian may be telling the truth or he may be lying to save his skin from possible murder charges resulting from the blaze koresh s lawyer being the attorney for at least one surviving davidian has an interest in claiming that the gov t caused the fire at least as much as the gov t has an interest in blaming koresh for the fire it s the physical evidence that will decide who s telling what it s too tempting for one or more of the survivors to go state s evidence parrot the fbi story hang the whole suicide on koresh claim they only stayed at gunpoint etc if any of them do this in the next few weeks it doesn t prove much but if none of them do it would be a strong indication to me that the fbi story is dead wrong cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re what if the dividians were black in article apr medtron medtronic com rn medtronic com robert nehls writes kenneth d whitehead kdw icd ab com wrote oleary cbnewsh cb att com brian m leary writes questions for the media and the politically correct if the people in the compound were black and the guys in ninja suits some of the davidians are black next question
talk.politics.guns	re fbi director s statement on waco standoff mr nice guy rcanders nyx cs du edu wrote the branch davidians were not violent and were not planning to start violence when the bd compound was assaulted by the atf the bd did fire back but they agreed to a cease fire and they allowed the atf to care for their wounded the bd even released the atf agents they captured it is clear from the release of the agents and allowing the atf medical attention that the bd were not looking for trouble this is the first i ve heard of the bd capturing and releasing atf agents is there any more info about this rob p
talk.politics.guns	re bd s did themselves you re all paranoid freaks in article r m inneph cronkite central sun com dbernard clesun central sun com writes g j maybe they wanted it to look like murder he had days i think this was coming the whole time he didn t even put the children in the buried bus or the underground bunker during the cs seige he put them up into the tower to die is cs gas lighter or heavier than air do you know if the cs is heavier than air most chemical weapons are james s cochrane when in danger or in doubt run in this space gt a prism gatech edu circles scream and shout for rent
talk.politics.guns	re reno fascist dog in article apr news columbia edu pgf cunixb cc columbia edu peter garfiel freeman writes janet reno should be lauded for her decision to attack the compound of the davidians i mean the last thing we need in this country is more gun toting hicks who want to end the world i think atf the us marshalls the fbi and local police forces should make a concerted effort to rid us of the scourge of rebellious freaks welch eine wonne welch ein leiden pete while dedicating the holocaust memorial museum president clinton remarked the evil represented in this museum is incontestable but as we are its witness so must we remain its adversary in the world in which we live so we must stop the fabricators of history and the bullies as well clinton made this comment shortly after giving janet reno the go ahead to hastily construct a gas chamber and crematorium in waco on the fiftieth anniversary of the warsaw uprising say wasn t monday also the anniversary of paul revere s ride is that a clue joe gaut in the super state it really does not f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu matter at all what actually happened remember the alamo truth is what the government chooses to remember waco tell you justice is what it wants to happen jim garrison new orleans la
talk.politics.guns	re who s next mormons and jews in apr midway uchicago edu thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes the koreshians rubbed themselves out neither mormons nor jews have a propensity for dousing themselves with kerosene so i m not particularly concerned or shall we blame jim jones on the government also the suggestion that they davidians committed suicide is completely without evidence except for the editorials please re word propensity for allegedly dousing themselves oh and the survivors claim the the fbi started the burning by accidentally igniting kerosene lanterns remember that they d already cut the power and the propane tanks this sounds a lot more likely than committing suicide by setting the place afire d david s meyers dmeyers math gatech edu when encryption is outlawed only outlaws will kh n b mk
talk.politics.guns	re the law of retribution in article lteid inn q appserv eng sun com fiddler concertina eng sun com steve hix writes re mcelwaine is there nowhere on the net that this guy will not post i just heard this week that he has started on compuserve flying models forum now sigh cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re waco clinton press conference part in article blake nevada edu blake nevada edu rawlin blake writes i was hoping that kent state taught us a lesson apparently not apparently the government will murder anyone they choose to still that s right despite claims that someone at kent state fire a shotgun at the the soldiers the only projectiles that anyone can prove where sent in the direction of the soldiers were rocks john f haugh ii pgp s cs utexas edu rpp jfh ma bell dof s jfh rpp cactus org
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today from article r jinn fo charnel ecst csuchico edu by nomad ecst csuchico edu michael larish in article apr stortek com vojak icebucket stortek com bill vojak writes both of my senators and my rep i also called the white house comment line was on hold for minutes so maybe lots of people are calling please call your congress critter wh comment line now just a general note i have seen several polls lately and they show a large majority a thinks that this incident was handled ok and b thinks that the fbi and batf gave them more than enough time days to come out i take it that when something happens that is wrong it s okay if a bunch of people say it is for instance if some people go on a murderous rampage and lynch some blacks and then a poll is taken which shows that the majority of people think that this is acceptable then does this mean that what these people have done isn t bad this is an example of mob rule not a democracy a democracy in which people s rights are protected i hope that i ve made myself clear on this make the following points your outrage over todays behaviour and what if i m not outraged fine you have the right to hold any opinion that you want to but let me ask you this are you outraged over this tragedy i hope that you are your opinions of david koresh and his followers not withstanding i know i am since batf chief higgens and janet reno were the who signed off on this plan demand that they be fired actually they should both be commended why i d be interested in hearing your reasons point out that even if the fire was set by someone inside of the building it came as a direct result of the actions of the fbi batf and the people inside including children deserved a trial instead of this what i want to know is what exactly did you expect them to do i can see it now the o clock news fbi and batf agents still surround the waco compound after days i don t think so they gave them every chance they had days to surrender to proper authorities they had attornies representing them etc koresh lied time and time again i don t wish them dead but you can t let it stalemate forever it was time to do something and the fbi and batf did what happened was unfortunate but acceptable as long as the fbi didn t set the fire intentionally michael g larish amateur radio callsign kd ctz nomad ecst csuchico edu golden empire amateur radio society gears w rhc california state chico state amateur radio society csars university chico butte county sheriff s search rescue scott kennedy brewer and patriot before david koresh is a cheap thug who interprets the bible through the barrel of a gun atf spokesman after the atf is a cheap thug who interprets the constitution through the barrel of a gun me batf cigarette cops fbi fuehrer s bureau of incineration
talk.politics.guns	re clinton joins list of genocidal socialist leaders in article apr starbase trincoll edu writes must be comforting to belong to a government approved religion baptists are a cult two btw under most of the definitions in the dictionary of cult i ve yet to meet a group of baptists who were stockpiling cambell s soup and m s ar s know any mormons and banging marrying thirteen yuear olds know for a fact that this was happening state of texas says it wasn t and they held a trial to prove it you re a sorry son of a bitch if you can t draw a distinction between these two things sure we can the top two things are perfectly legal the bottom one isn t the person here who can t distinguish seems to be you people like you cheapen our constitution by using it to defend sociopaths who aren t deserved of it so the constitution is only for people you approve of fine fine i usually refer to that as elitism because bigotry is so negative get a life and chill on the paranoia knowing that people like you are out there really gives me warm fuzzies joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re clinton joins list of genocidal socialist leaders in article apr starbase trincoll edu writes in article r h vinn clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras wrote you seem to make two points no one ultimately oversees the federal agencies you mention and since koresh apparently has a different view point from your i ve yet to meet a group of baptists who were stockpiling cambell s soup and m s ar s and banging marrying thirteen yuear olds you re a sorry hmm all reports from texas authorities indicate that none of the children which the group released showed any signs of child abuse given that the same results were found the last time the group was investigated for such allegations i can pretty much state that i strongly suspect the government of disinformation deception on this issue and about stockpiling weapons food many recognized religous groups practice maintaining a one years supply of food and some even maintain a supply of weapons and ammunition why are those two facts grounds for an armed assault and from the dollar value of the weapons purchased if they bought decent firearms it comes out to about one handgun rifle and shotgun for each adult with a few extras going by that rule the batf best get ready for the fight of their life when they assault alabama james s cochrane when in danger or in doubt run in this space gt a prism gatech edu circles scream and shout for rent
talk.politics.guns	re your evil tax dollars at work was re atf burns ranch etc etc in article apr hpcvusn cv hp com kam cv hp com keith marchington writes good question take an objective look at what happened listen to the things that the fbi said the bd s started the fire the bd s bodies were found with gunshot wounds that are now being refuted by the evidence being recovered seems that the fbi is deliberately making statements that have no rational basis in fact and trying to make them sound like fact that s another sad thing i d expect this sort of shit from the batf but i m goddamn disappointed in the fbi they used to be professionals cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article c tenu f ns nodak edu green plains nodak edu bill green writes just to shed some light on the fire it was widely reported ap etc that there were several witnesses to bd folks starting the fires it has also been reported that the fires broke out in several places at once which rules out a bradley knocking over a lamp etc as the cause what i would like to see is some serious discussion of this incident i believe the moves made were right and proper but i still have some problems with some of the tactics after watching the abc special on it tonight as well as cnn and nightline i question some of the atf and fbi actions could it have been possible to have taken koresh outside the compound at some time before the feb th raid i think it was he went into town fairly often and was known to go jogging this was even during the month period when he was being watched one wonders why the batf went ahead when they had been warned according to an interview with a batf agent that the bd were expecting them and why they had the media in tow almost looks like they wanted to have a romp and a nice show for the media and it all went to hell he was also never known to act violently he has always surrendered peacefully before but of course the warrants were served peacefully he has been tried on the allegations before and found not guilty the justification for this mess was he was alleged to have purchased worth of guns and stuff over an undetermined time period last i heard this is not a crime or indication of one i know of an individual with that much value in guns should he get a fly thru the door shoot first talk later raid grenades are shooting first nobody i know of can say oh thats only a stun grenade thats ok can you i sure cannot also one cannot be sure that k figure is not calculated like the feds calculate the value of a drug siezure even so it is a so what issue he wasn t bothering anyone besides the batf who doesn t like folks other than themselves or other govt people having any effective guns and having an unapproved religeous group are we required to not offend the batf these days i sure hope it hasn t come to that my point is it does not add up we need an independent investigation and now assuming other than fbi batf are preserving the evidence could a further wait have resulted in a different outcome they had the premisis bugged i am inclined to think a further wait would have saved lives one wonders why they didn t have emergency gear on hand when they moved and why they didn t turn on the water when a fire was observed instead of saying aw gee there is no water why so long before the fire gear even showed up like after the building had pretty much finished burning fireman safety isn t that a decision the firefighters should be allowed to make no water why didn t the feds turn it back on they sure could cut it off quickly enough one does wonder about the possibility of settling scores were fbi actions blaring loudspeakers etc the right course of action and a few other questions like i said i believe the actions taken in general were proper but i still have some reservations one other point i m no fan of janet reno but i do like the way she had the balls to go ahead and take full responsibility seems like the waffle boy had problems figuring out just where he stood on the issue what does taking responsibility mean you think she is going to be facing jail time if the acts were found to be criminal you think she is going to face any repercussions if the fbi batf are found to have acted wrongly i don t it is a nice pr gimmick though i am not assured there will even be a serious independent investigation for possible wrongdoing or criminal acts on the part of the batf or fbi i expect to hear they are our best law enforcement they wouldn t do anything like that no way out of the question end of issue i want to see an independent investigation with full prosecuting and subpoena powers with felony prosecution where felony acts are found fat chance i bet i bet the justice dept will have an internal investigation which will turn up at most poor judgement i hope i am wrong that this is gone over with a fine tooth comb pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article dusek shale dusek rtsg mot com james p dusek writes ccdarg dct ac uk alan greig writes or the cultists i think i ll quote the bbc quoting actually voice interview one of the two british survivors he claimed that the fire started when the tanks caused an internal wooden wall roof to collapse knocking over kerosene lamps and that they had no suicide plan if the fbi started the fire why didn t people flee the burning building assuming the fire was caused by lanterns and stoves being knocked about by the tanks pushing on the walls would shake a building pretty good perhaps they didn t flee because fleeing would have meant entering the fire from the other side like they were surrounded by the fire and rubble which finally combined with teargas and combustion gasses overcame and enveloped them in other words they were trapped by the flames heat fumes and rubble does that sound plausable not as dramatic as korash forcing them to stay or shooting them no shot victims found yet but plausable pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
talk.politics.guns	re street stories in article apr zeus calpoly edu sparker tuba calpoly edu sean lawrence parker writes i just caught the last bit of the street stories segment on woman and guns what caught my eye was that two woman were shown on the program in mass and both were carrying concealed can you obtain a ccw in mass for the ordinary citizen ccw s are issued at the discretion of the police chief so it varies town by town in my town forget about anything more than target and sport carry to and from the gun club hunting area only unless you re mr moneybags with large daily deposits your life isn t worth shit but your money now that s important in other towns they treat law abiding citizens like adults secret game hint you never know when the rules will be changed a change in police chief can throw a town from either side of the board to the other fun for the whole family some chiefs will grant you a personal protection permit if you have been attacked or threatened some other blue suited assholes have been known to count this as a negative against applicants it s a crap shoot and your rights are the stakes cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	waco cross posted to talk politics guns from can politics mark g salyzyn mark ve mgs ampr org wrote cmk world std com charles m kozierok writes been to waco texas lately yes the government takes care of us all doesn t it as long as you belong to a government sanctioned religion excuse me but didn t these gun ladden cult members threaten shoot and kill some people they threatened no one their neighbours thought they were a little strange but all in all the kind of people you would want to live next door to one version has the batf serving a search warrant by jumping out of a horse trailer with guns and tossing concussion grenades if this is the true order of events then the cult could not know that a search warrant was being served and since there was no proof that these guys were police the cult had every right to defend themselves torching themselves shows briliant tactics and convinces me they realy belong in society if you watch actual footage of the fire from start to finish it is not at all clear that fire wasn t started by the tanks the people who survived are claiming that the fire was started by the tanks knocking over some kerosene lanterns the fbi is claiming that the cult started the fire they realy belong in society is a catchy phrase but i m personally waiting to see what the texas rangers have to say about it all before i pass judgment why don t you do the same some more interesting facts about the waco incident the original assault was conducted by batf officers wearing an assorted types of camouflage i saw on cnn at least three different types i would be hard pressed to identify a bunch of guys in bring your own battle fatigues as uniformed officers of the law even if they were claiming to be police the batf has been lying from the beginning we only had handguns the original footage showed batf officers on a roof top getting shot at one had an mp assault sub machine gun we were out gunned sub machine guns and shotguns are the best in quarters weapon you can t be out gunned when you have the best guns available for the job we didn t know they had guns that would shoot through doors this one is the best there are very few guns that won t shoot through a household door or through a house wall for that matter since officers from the bureau of alcohol tobacco and firearms should know that they are either lying or incredibly incompetent not to mention criminally negligent if they are shooting bullets that they think will stop when the encounter plywood we had a search warrant actually we had an arrest warrant no wait we had both yeah that s the ticket oh and they re child molesters too and they make drugs did we mention we think they have rocket launchers the story from batf and fbi spokespeople has changed daily and their claims were getting increasingly outrageous throughout the siege the fbi and batf have be claiming that one of their biggest concerns was that koresh and his followers would mass suicide now they are claiming that that s what he did and that they are surprised that he did huh all in all i think that anything the fbi and batf say should be taken with a grain or two of salt rob robert a osborne uunet ca isgtec robert or robert isgtec com
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article nlsun oracle nl jdurbin nl oracle com jason durbin writes if even half the speculations of conspiracy made about this are true then i would expect that you people should be calling for the atf fbi texas rangers congress and all branches of the us government to be immediately and completey disbanded no exceptions well we re not which goes to prove you still don t understand what we re saying here jeez do you people really beleive all this crap do you also beleive in the zionist occupation government and the tooth fairy i ve lived through the bombing of cambodia my lai inflated body counts in vietnam the funding of noreiga watergate contragate chappaquiddick kent state domestic spying by the cia edwin meese s pornography commission the war on drugs civil seizure the move disaster the la disaster and now waco do you really believe that government always does what is right admittedly mistakes were made but why attribute them to malice rather than stupidity watch the news for the next couple of months watch how this whole government initiated debacle turns into shouting for more gun control it s already started cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re change of name in article c y x v well sf ca us seelowe well sf ca us hudson h luce writes i suggest another name change thomas parsli to vidkun quisling this is really uncalled for you cannot expect a european growing up in a culture of rulers and subjects to immediately grasp the concepts of individual independence and citizen sovereignity in the us he s less at fault than the countrymen we have here who also can t grasp it cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re once upon a time in article apr swan pyr cgwillme pyr swan ac uk r b willmersdorf writes american and european universities were full of angry young people tm that wanted to overthrow the government and wouldn t think twice about lobbing a molotov cocktail at the national guard military police in europe certainly it would have been very bad form to take anything the system tm said at face value this was in the end of the sixties and the begining of the seventies i m told i was too young to remember something wrong happened along the way i m afraid maybe the west became just too comfortable or maybe i was born too late yours disappointed with with the youth of today isn t it ironic i m of that generation and i remember the lesson i cry to see all the postings from domestic edu sites that have naively swallowed everything the government has seen fit to feed to them especially contrasted to such a post from the uk yet there is a difference between lining up people against the wall and executing them and causing their deaths through negligence imcompetence i honestly hope we witnessed the latter as they say the alternative is too horrible to contemplate i suspect we saw the latter however the injustice implied in letting those involved escape without investigation and or prosecution is also horrible to contemplate cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re gun talk state legislative update in article lairdb crash cts com lairdb crash cts com laird p broadfield writes in c sgg bnv cbnews cb att com lvc cbnews cb att com larry cipriani writes as william o douglas noted if a powerful sponsor is lacking individual liberty withers in spite of glowing opinions and resounding constitutional phrases an excellent quote i looked under c and k for kalifornia has the nra given up on us one might well ask if ca gun owners have given up on the nra crpa the national nra doesn t march in and get things passed they provide a convenient label for local activities activists andy
talk.politics.guns	analysis of second amendment was re some more about gun control in article apr ra msstate edu dnewcomb whale st usm edu donald r newcomb writes first i would like to say how much i appreciate having so literate and erudite an individual as mr rutledge with whom to discuss this topic frankly most anti rkba posters refuse even to approach the topic of the original understanding of the bill of rights as detailed in the writings of the era this is most refreshing second i must apologize for leaving the discussion for several days my brigade s quarterly drill was this weekend and i needed to attend to several matters pertaining to the state militia some people seem to feel that the concept of the militia is an anachro nism that is out of place in the th century i m not sure the swiss would agree and i think perhaps a discussion of how the militia both organized and unorganized fits into the defense plans of my state mississippi please do not assume that this describes something peculiar to one southern state for instance the commonwealth of massachusetts has a well organized militia which members report maintains stocks of both riot guns and machine guns the laws of other states will vary but are probably similar it appears it is time that this article originally posted by larry cipriani last year and which i saved gets posted again it offers as good an analysis of the meaning of the second amendment especially regarding the militia clause as i have seen i have not seen any rebuttles with similar bone fides enjoy flames to dev null begin enclosed article the unabridged second amendment by j neil schulman if you wanted to know all about the big bang you d ring up carl sagan right and if you wanted to know about desert warfare the man to call would be norman schwarzkopf no question about it but who would you call if you wanted the top expert on american usage to tell you the meaning of the second amendment to the united states constitution that was the question i asked a c brocki editorial coordinator of the los angeles unified school district and formerly senior editor at houghton mifflin publishers who himself had been recommended to me as the foremost expert on english usage in the los angeles school system mr brocki told me to get in touch with roy copperud a retired professor journalism at the university of southern california and the author of american usage and style the consensus a little research lent support to brocki s opinion of professor copperud s expertise roy copperud was a newspaper writer on major dailies for over three decades before embarking on a a distinguished year career teaching journalism at usc since copperud has been writing a column dealing with the professional aspects of journalism for editor and publisher a weekly magazine focusing on the journalism field he s on the usage panel of the american heritage dictionary and merriam webster s usage dictionary frequently cites him as an expert copperud s fifth book on usage american usage and style the consensus has been in continuous print from van nostrand reinhold since and is the winner of the association of american publisher s humanities award that sounds like an expert to me after a brief telephone call to professor copperud in which i introduced myself but did not give him any indication of why i was interested i sent the following letter i am writing you to ask you for your professional opinion as an expert in english usage to analyze the text of the second amendment to the united states constitution and extract the intent from the text the text of the second amendment is a well regulated militia being necessary for the security of a free state the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed the debate over this amendment has been whether the first part of the sentence a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state is a restrictive clause or a subordinate clause with respect to the independent clause containing the subject of the sentence the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed i would request that your analysis of this sentence not take into consideration issues of political impact or public policy but be restricted entirely to a linguistic analysis of its meaning and intent further since your professional analysis will likely become part of litigation regarding the consequences of the second amendment i ask that whatever analysis you make be a professional opinion that you would be willing to stand behind with your reputation and even be willing to testify under oath to support if necessary my letter framed several questions about the test of the second amendment then concluded i realize that i am asking you to take on a major responsibility and task with this letter i am doing so because as a citizen i believe it is vitally important to extract the actual meaning of the second amendment while i ask that your analysis not be affected by the political importance of its results i ask that you do this because of that importance after several more letters and phone calls in which we discussed terms for his doing such an analysis but in which we never discussed either of our opinions regarding the second amendment gun control or any other political subject professor copperud sent me the follow analysis into which i have inserted my questions for the sake of clarity copperud the words a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state contrary to the interpretation cited in your letter of july constitutes a present participle rather than a clause it is used as an adjective modifying militia which is followed by the main clause of the sentence subject the right verb shall the to keep and bear arms is asserted as an essential for maintaining a militia in reply to your numbered questions schulman can the sentence be interpreted to grant the right to keep and bear arms solely to a well regulated militia copperud the sentence does not restrict the right to keep and bear arms nor does it state or imply possession of the right elsewhere or by others than the people it simply makes a positive statement with respect to a right of the people schulman is the right of the people to keep and bear arms granted by the words of the second amendment or does the second amendment assume a preexisting right of the people to keep and bear arms and merely state that such right shall not be infringed copperud the right is not granted by the amendment its existence is assumed the thrust of the sentence is that the right shall be preserved inviolate for the sake of ensuring a militia schulman is the right of the people to keep and bear arms conditioned upon whether or not a well regulated militia is in fact necessary to the security of a free state and if that condition is not existing is the statement the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed null and void copperud no such condition is expressed or implied the right to keep and bear arms is not said by the amendment to depend on the existence of a militia no condition is stated or implied as to the relation of the right to keep and bear arms and to the necessity of a well regulated militia as a requisite to the security of a free state the right to keep and bear arms is deemed unconditional by the entire sentence schulman does the clause a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state grant a right to the government to place conditions on the right of the people to keep and bear arms or is such right deemed unconditional by the meaning of the entire sentence copperud the right is assumed to exist and to be unconditional as previously stated it is invoked here specifically for the sake of the militia schulman which of the following does the phrase well regulated militia mean well equipped well organized well drilled well educated or subject to regulations of a superior authority copperud the phrase means subject to regulations of a superior authority this accords with the desire of the writers for civilian control over the military schulman if at all possible i would ask you to take account the changed meanings of words or usage since that sentence was written years ago but not take into account historical interpretations of the intents of the authors unless those issues can be clearly separated copperud to the best of my knowledge there has been no change in the meaning of words or in usage that would affect the meaning of the amendment if it were written today it might be put since a well regulated militia is necessary tot he security of a free state the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged schulman as a scientific control on this analysis i would also appreciate it if you could compare your analysis of the text of the second amendment to the following sentence a well schooled electorate being necessary to the security of a free state the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed my questions for the usage analysis of this sentence would be is the grammatical structure and usage of this sentence and the way the words modify each other identical to the second amendment s sentence and could this sentence be interpreted to restrict the right of the people to keep and read books only to a well educated electorate for example registered voters with a high school diploma copperud your scientific control sentence precisely parallels the amendment in grammatical structure there is nothing in your sentence that either indicates or implies the possibility of a restricted interpretation professor copperud had only one additional comment which he placed in his cover letter with well known human curiosity i made some speculative efforts to decide how the material might be used but was unable to reach any conclusion so now we have been told by one of the top experts on american usage what many knew all along the constitution of the united states unconditionally protects the people s right to keep and bear arms forbidding all governments formed under the constitution from abridging that right as i write this the attempted coup against constitutional government in the soviet union has failed apparently because the will of the people in that part of the world to be free from capricious tyranny is stronger than the old guard s desire to maintain a monopoly on dictatorial power and here in the united states elected lawmakers judges and appointed officials who are pledged to defend the constitution of the united states ignore marginalize or prevaricate about the second amendment routinely american citizens are put in american prisons for carrying arms owning arms of forbidden sorts or failing to satisfy bureaucratic requirements regarding the owning and carrying of firearms all of which is an abridgement of the unconditional right of the people to keep and bear arms guaranteed by the constitution and even the american civil liberties union aclu staunch defender of the rest of the bill of rights stands by and does nothing it seems it is up to those who believe in the right to keep and bear arms to preserve that right no one else will no one else can will we beg our elected representatives not to take away our rights and continue regarding them as representing us if they do will we continue obeying judges who decide that the second amendment doesn t mean what it says it means but means whatever they say it means in their orwellian doublespeak or will be simply keep and bear the arms of our choice as the constitution of the united states promises us we can and pledge that we will defend that promise with our lives our fortuned and our sacred honor c by the new gun week and second amendment foundation informational reproduction of the entire article is hereby authorized provided the author the new gun week and second amendment foundation are credited all other rights reserved about the author j neil schulman is the award winning author of novels endorsed by anthony burgess and nobel economist milton friedman and writer of the cbs twilight zone episode in which a time traveling historian prevents the jfk assassination he s also the founder and president of softserv publishing the first publishing company to distribute paperless books via personal computers and modems most recently schulman has founded the committee to enforce the second amendment cesa through which he intends to see the individual s right to keep and bear arms recognized as a constitutional protection equal to those afforded in the first fourth fifth ninth and fourteenth amendments j neil schulman may be reached through the softserv paperless bookstore hour bbs up to baud mail address po box long beach ca genie address softserv end enclosed article pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
talk.politics.guns	re clinton joins list of genocidal socialist leaders i ve yet to meet a group of baptists who were stockpiling cambell s soup and m s ar s and banging marrying thirteen yuear olds with one exception that s a pretty good description of many of the baptists i know the exception is that they know the difference between an m and an ar heck they even know that it looks like richard petty s stock car doesn t mean it s a racing stock car they may be uncouth but they ve figured out that appearance isn t function andy
talk.politics.guns	re some more about gun control in article apr zeus tamu edu djh zeus tamu edu harty daniel joseph writes a well regulated militia being necessarry to the security of a free state the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed what is regulated regulated means controlled how about security while it may mean that in the relevant meaning comes from moreover controlled doesn t tell you who s doing the controllling fletcher s political works pub d in defines a well regulated militia that being the relevant phrase as being an armed people not under the control of govt the wigged gents who argued about the constituion used it in that way feel free to provide a s era reference showing a usage other than individual right not to be interfered with by govt note that the first clause has a meaning it is a restriction on govt military power see scarry s university of penn law review article for an extended discussion the existence of a well regulated militia is a necessary part of that restriction but it is not sufficient andy
talk.politics.guns	re criminals machineguns in article c me d iy cs uiuc edu kratz cs uiuc edu jason kratz writes in apr csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu andy freeman writes in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes people are getting killed by gang violence every day every single day i hear about more people getting killed by gang violence and see some of the weapo s that are being confiscated is kratz claiming that he can reliably visually distinguish an m from an ar that he can see the difference between a semi auto and a full auto uzi that he can see the difference between the various versions some full auto some semi auto only of the m well let me see uzi no m no i see that i misphrased my question i should have asked which full autos kratz can accurately distinguish from semi auto look alikes i should have also included some semi auto only guns in my list to see if he d ask how to distinguish them from their non existent full auto relatives let s do the former now kratz has claimed that he can visually distinguish full autos from semi autos for which full autos is he making that claim how does he do it let s get specific and as exhaustive as possible m ar maybe i remember there being a selector swtich on the ar if i remember correctly please correct me if i m wrong the switch would set to an off position or an on position because the gun ar is semi automatic wouldn t the m have a position for semi auto fire and full auto fire or maybe round bursts maybe why is kratz asking about what he told us that he knows is kratz certain that he can distinguish a three position switch from a two position switch via tv inspection does he even get to see the switch in the typical police display of guns note that one might well be able to see this sort of thing in a hands on visual inspection even though it won t be seen on tv and to think that kratz was telling us that seeing it on tv was just as accurate as being there how about the other guns do they also have selector switch to switch between semi auto and fully auto fire why all the questions kratz assured us that he could make this distinction and now he s asking us how he did it well what about what i said above if that is correct i guess tv would be acceptable if you had a good enough picture and a picture of the lower receiver of the ar m what about it it only demonstrates that as i predicted kratz was blowing smoke on this andy gave kratz a chance to back down on this in private jason kratz didn t take andy s offer to back down in private andy wonders what kratz is learning from this
talk.politics.guns	re gun buy back in article r qqcinn j clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras writes in article bb b r vmcms csuohio edu r vmcms csuohio edu writes in article apr rti rti org jbs rti rti org writes in article bb ba a r vmcms csuohio edu r vmcms csuohio edu writes gun buyback programs will hopefully have an impact on accidental shootings especially youths domestic disputes where a gun is available in the heat of emotion and anger and maybe keep a few guns from being stolen and later used in street level crime what gives you the idea that gun buyback programs will have an impact on any of these things evidence please please don t misinterret what i was saying joe i was making the point tha there is no evidence of effect of gun buyback programs but hopefully if there is any effect it may prevent injuries or deaths in one of these types of common incidents if you re a research associate in urban child research then perhaps you can comment for us on the ratio of the accidental gun death rate to the rate of accidental death from other single causes follow that perhaps with some sort of justification for the amount of effort that anti gunners spend trying to convince the country that accidental gun related death among children in the u s is a serious problem firearms are the fifth leading cause of unintentional deaths among children ages and under i don t understand how the ratio to other accidental deaths is important so guns don t kill as many children as car accidents what is the difference in severity between deaths and deaths i am not trying to use accidental gun related deaths among children as a justification for gun control who needs to be convinced that accidental gun deaths of children is a serious problem i assumed that any humane person would be concerned when any year old got hold of their parents gun from their bedroom drawer and accidently blew away one of their friends any death is serious wanna discuss match control firearms related unintentional deaths among children ages and under are the fault of one or more negligent persons not the gun did i say that a child who unintentionally shoots someone is not negligent no i hate to repeat myself jim but like i told joe i was not attempting in any way to justify gun control you re right any death is serious that was my point to joe who said that anti gunners try to convinve the country that accidental gun deaths related to children are a serious problem i guess i assumed everyone thought that it was a problem no i don t want to discuss match control i don t equate a book of matches to a loaded millimeter either don t confuse the issue and please don t say that tired old nra line guns don t kill people people kill people sure people can kill people without guns but easy access to guns makes it a lot more convenient guns don t kill people people with easy access to guns kill people more than anything gun buyback programs are symbolic offerings to the community in that sense i think they might do a little good please explain why you think symbolic offerings do good my point was gun buyback programs which are almost always run by police departments might i stress might do a little i stress little good by giving people the impression that the police are attempting to respond to interpersonal gun violence in a unique way overall i thought that i had made it clear that i did not think that gun buyback programs were useful providing false hope then is the intent jim i m just saying how it is i m not saying if that is a good thing or not from the police who i have talked with who run some of these gun buyback programs i get the impression that they really think they are having an impact on the community when i ask them if they have an evaluatory component to the program they say well no so in answer to your question no false hope is not the intent i think the intent is to show folks that police are attempting to do something to curb interpersonal gun violence whether its effective or not look if you can t measure the impact of these programs using some sort of pre test and post test evaluation what is the point it must be symbolic in nature the police are essentially saying look if you have a gun lying around and you don t want it we ll give you for it because we care about the community if you i and joe could think of a way to measure the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of these programs we could become rich and famous i do know that the vast majority of guns that are used by youths or brought to school by youths on a daily basis about youths are obtained easily and quickly through a personal friend or more often borrowed from a parent without their knowledge i suggest you go back and look at wherever you saw these statistics i suspect you ll find if you look carefully that is the number of students estimated to have carried a weapon not necessarily a gun to school at least once in the past year and not the number of students who carry a gun to school daily well joe i suggest that you talk to the center to prevent handgun violence or the centers for disease control if you look carefully you will see that you greatly underestimate the presence of guns in the lives of youths the cphv reports that youth bring guns to school daily and that bring guns to school at least once a year the cdc estimates that out f high school students carried a gun to school at least once in the cdc also says that million elementary aged latch key children kids who come home from school to an empty house have access to guns in their home california schools reported a increase in student gun confiscations between and and a increase between and florida reported a percent increase in gun incidents in schools between amd these are the statistics increase in california schools eh gun control is working fine there i didn t anything about gun control what are you talking about thus willing to follow a man who claimed to be the messiah got news for you folks if the big cheese was on this crazy planet of ours presently he would not be carrying a gun or holding children when they were in danger holding kids time for a reality check son these kids were the children of the people inside who believed that the forces of evil were outside waiting to kill them would you send your children out the door if you believed as they did okay maybe i worded it wrong dad i meant that to put children in a situation fortified compound where harm could come to them is not the act of a messiah in my opinion i m not saying that koresh had control over these children directly but i would hope that whatever messiah there is would not let innocent children die if as he claimed he was the messiah and people followed him as such why did he not tell their parents to free the children instead of letting them burn alive thanks for the reality check joe its been real so your religion is different does that make it his wrong even assuming koresh actually made that decision and the verdict is still out on that jim listen to me i said i m not religious whatsoever do you understand religion has nothing to do with this i could care less what religion they were okay to put children in that situation is wrong pure and simple difference is good jim i am the most progressive and diverse person in the world but if different is allowing kids to be exposed to tanks and tear gas then yes jim different is wrong
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors ccdarg dct ac uk alan greig writes or the cultists i think i ll quote the bbc quoting actually voice interview one of the two british survivors he claimed that the fire started when the tanks caused an internal wooden wall roof to collapse knocking over kerosene lamps and that they had no suicide plan if the fbi started the fire why didn t people flee the burning building james dusek
talk.politics.guns	re who s next mormons and jews in article c s n dyj world std com rjk world std com robert j kolker writes thank you for remembering matzada matzada was not an insane act it was a sanctification of g d s name and the most extreme denial of tyranny possible to this day the officers of the tzahal isreal defense force take their oath at the fortress lo tepol shaynit matzadah matzadah will not fall again not anymore recent archaeological inspection of the site presents pretty compelling evidence that the mass suicide at masada never occured this evidence was so compelling tha the tzahal no long hold their secret ceremony at the fortress ron phillips crphilli hound dazixca ingr com senior customer engineer intergraph electronics east evelyn avenue voice mountain view ca fax
talk.politics.guns	waco questions folks it s time to start building some precise questions to send to our federal elected officials and to investigative reporters in our local tv radio and newprint media ideally these questions could be asked at any investigation into the batf s and fbi s participation at the waco fiasco in hopes of being resolved and hopefully wake up the local news media that they are not getting the entire truth from the batf and fbi my list is up to that are really nagging at my gut the list will probably grow what were the contents of the original warrant now sealed that the batf obtained it is reasonable to believe that illegal firearms and or ammunition could not be flushed down the toilet therefore a no knock raid could be ruled out prior to the initial assault on the complex did a single batf agent and accompanying witness without a contingent of assault and news media personnel attempt to knock on the door of the branch davidian s complex and serve the warrant in a manner prescribed by law on the day of the initial assault on the complex batf agents were aware that several small children were inside the buildings in the ensueing gun battle batf agents fired into a building known to contain children killing at least one two year old child knowing children were present why didn t the batf have an alternate plan and immediately retreat from the area close to the complex and implement the alternate plan rather than opening fire and jeopardizing the lives of the children in the building the fbi spokesman states that paper evidence indicates that david koresh and members of the branch davidians possessed over in firearms and ammunition did david koresh and the members of the branch davidians have a valid federal firearms license were they actively participating in the legal business of selling buying firearms and ammunition and were any of the weapons they had illegally possessed does this paper evidence consist only of weapons purchased or does it include legally dispossessed weapons after the original assault on the compound tragically failed a batf spokeswoman stated we were outgunned yet tv newscasts of video tape filmed at the time of the incident show batf agents armed with mp and ar m rifles although unclear on the video tape because of obstruction from full view by agent s bodies they also may have had ak and sks rifles what type s of firearms did the batf agents have immediate access to at the scene of the original assault on the complex since there is no evidence to confirm anyone was inside the complex involuntarily why did the fbi treat it as a hostage situation along the same lines why did the fbi use psychological warfare techniques including sensory overload sleep deprivation and other disruptive techniques that would test the sanity of any normal person rather than using techniques aimed at placing the complex occupants into a calmer frame of mind reports indicate several of the children inside the complex were accompanied by their mothers since it is reasonable to expect these mothers would have their children taken away from them if they came out why did the fbi expect the mothers to just walk out and surrender themselves to the authorities agents at the scene claim to have seen members of the branch davidians setting fire to the complex branch davidian members who survived the inferno claim the fire was started when an armored vehicle punched through the wall and knocked over a lantern which was setting on a table video tape of the incident does show an armored vehicle punching a hole in the wall and the fire erupted almost immediately from the same general location was the source of the fire the same room where the armored vehicle penetrated fbi spokesmen are voicing the opinion that the david koresh and the members of the branch davidians committed mass suicide yet bodies are being discovered throughout the house and other areas within the building complex this seems to be counter to any known mass suicides through history what evidence does the fbi have that a mass suicide pact existed fbi director sessions stated that the massive fireball shown on the video tape was caused by the branch davidian s ammunition and or powder cache exploding yet the fireball seems to be more characteristic of the type created when compressed gas or other highly volatile fuel source explodes was any evidence found which would indicate the branch davidians had an ammunition and or powder cache which exploded to create this fireball if so and if david koresh and members of the branch davidians were engaged in the legal business of selling buying firearms was the amount determined to be excessively greater than one would expect for someone engaged in such a legal business it is rumored that one fbi agent was extremely upset about critical news media coverage and intentionally used an armored vehicle to crush a reporter s car which had been left at the compound is there any factual basis to this rumor and if so what charges will be brought against the fbi agent who performed the act fbi director sessions states that during the final assault on the complex over shots were fired at the vehicles on the video tape of the incident you can hear the drone of the armored vehicles engines yet there is no sound of the sharp reports that one would expect to hear if shots were fired also there are no indications of smoke and or muzzle flashes appearing from the windows buildings or other structures in the video surely these should be evident if the branch davidians had fired on the armored vehicles finally the video tape does not show any indication of paint splatter sparks or other characteristic spray of material which should be apparent if the branch davidians had fired upon the vehicles do any of the armored vehicles which were brought in to pump tear gas into the compound show evidence of fresh damage due to being hit by shots from high power rifles cs gas is considered to be a chemical warfare agent the united states has signed international treaties which prevent the use of cs gas in warfare if the united states could not morally use cs gas against saddam hussein and his troops why is it morally acceptable to use the same agent against citizens of our own land on april fbi spokesmen state that at least bodies discovered in the complex had bullet wounds to the head indicating they had been murdered or had committed suicide on april the county coroner claims he knows nothing about any bodies found with bullet wounds to the head were any of the victims bodies found within the burned out complex have bullet wounds to the head ron phillips crphilli hound dazixca ingr com senior customer engineer intergraph electronics east evelyn avenue voice mountain view ca fax
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch update in article c y b mg news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes for me though the black soot billowing outside the compound added with how fast the fire spread ponted to someone dousing large parts of the compound with some sort of gasoline or fire starter lots of house fires give off black sooty smoke and as far as the speed of the fire the winds were gusting to mph at least that day i guess you re forgetting the way oakland and berkeley looked back in did those folks use accelerants smg i doubt the feds did that as they were more interested in arresting vernon the real unbalanced one at least the one that lost his cool was vernon so i figured that he was more likely to do it after all he was jesus being persecuted by the authorities and had followers to hold onto so made the decision he and his followers also probably felt that they were rocketing to heaven by doing this stuff thsi conclusion i came to after umpteen million hours of listening to npr and other radio shows i always have the radio going when i am in my office on some innocuous talk show or news program as background noise personal opinions why brent irvine yes what did you think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu they were
talk.politics.guns	re your evil tax dollars at work was re atf burns ranch etc etc in article mbs psuvm psu edu mark mark sachs mbs psuvm psu edu writes in article mgb slacvm slac stanford edu from a p according to numerous accounts by those in the compound the fire was started by an armoured vehicle crushing a large propane tank and turning over numerous gas lanterns oh then why did the smoke and flames start from three different places in particular three different places where there were no apv s according to an ap report from texas written by jaime aron this morning in addtion to the gas pumped in by hoses from cs generators canisters of tear gas were thrown into the building from armored vehicles one of the canisters hitting a man inside in the face this was in the part of the article before going into differences in the stories told by bd survivors and the gov t tear gas canisters used to be able to start fires some things are too important not to give away to everybody else and have none left for yourself dieter the car salesman
talk.politics.guns	fbi is not stupid hello i just want to make points the fbi is not stupid these people are chosen for their intelligence education loyalty to the government etc they are given much intensive training so to all of you who refuse to believe there could be any conspiracy here and say that the fbi was just stupid i say i don t believe it the fbi has acces to the latest in audio and video technology the latest digital systems the fbi can manufacture evidence need a tape of koresh saying light the fire and you can have one need a thermal imaging video of three people lighting fires and through the magic of computer graphics you can have one the thing is manufacturing these pieces of evidence takes time so it may be a few more days before we get to see them or maybe we just haven t heard any tapes or seen any fbi video is because it is classified too gruesome for our eyes lost got coffee spilled on it dwayne jacques fontenot btw i get my information from live video feeds i read the papers too but almost everything in them contradicts what i have seen with my own eyes
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article r n inn g clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras writes in article dusek shale dusek rtsg mot com james p dusek writes ccdarg dct ac uk alan greig writes or the cultists i think i ll quote the bbc quoting actually voice interview one of the two british survivors he claimed that the fire started when the tanks caused an internal wooden wall roof to collapse knocking over kerosene lamps and that they had no suicide plan if the fbi started the fire why didn t people flee the burning building i don t know why this is the ap story from fri morning as the walls came tumbling down and tear gas filled the air cult leader david koresh sprang into action he left his third floor bedroom and began looking around the house making sure women and children were secure and checking that everyone had their gas masks on properly within hours the compound became an inferno nine branch davidians excaped this is their story gleaned from lawyers who spoke with six of them who are jailed on charges that include conspiracy and murder that day the six said a portable radio offered the only contact with the outside world since koresh s right hand man steve schneider ripped out the compounds s phone line after fbi agents called before dawn monday saying this was the cults last chance come out or prepare to get forced out they kept their word by dawn tanks were battering the mount carmel compound punching for hours to creat holes for tear gas to enter the bd meanwhile proceeded with their daily routines strapped into gas masks the women did laundry others read bibles in their rooms the children all under remained by their mothers sides still it was hard to ignore what was happening around them each time a tank rammed the poorly constructed building it shook violently cult members dodges falling gypsum wallboard and doors hundreds of gas canisters hurled in from the armored vehicles were filling the air with noxious fumes the flying canisters were more frightening than the tanks at least one man was hit in the face the gas began filling the air driven by heavy gusts of wind coming through windows and the holes the tanks made scattered throughout the house the cult members made no efforts to gather then the fbi sent in its biggest weapon a massive armored vehicle headed for a chamber lined with cinder blocks where authorities hoped to find koresh and schneider and fire tear gas directly at them here the cult members story diverges from the government s version the fbi says cult members set fires in three places but each of the six cult members in separate discussions with lawyers consistently gave versions at odds with the fbi s account they say the tank flattened a barrel of propane spilling its contents and as the tank thundered through the house it tipped over lit lanterns spitting flames that ignited the propane and other flammables the home of used lumber plywood and wallboard tacked together with tar paper was vulnerable the building erupted nine bd s escaped jumping through windows and dashing through other openings others died groping in the blackness frank
talk.politics.guns	re batf acronym in article hpfcso fc hp com cunniff hpfcso fc hp com ross cunniff writes diederic spot colorado edu andrew diederich writes b arely a dequate t otally f ed the one i made up last night was bureau of assault theft and frame ups try this one a favorite around here bureau of assholes tightwads and facists and remember they were created by the infernal revenue code msa soon i discovered that this rock thing was true jerry lee lewis was the devil jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet all of a sudden i found myself in love with the world so there was only one thing that i could do was ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
talk.politics.guns	re hr a gun law i can live with in article apr dg rtp dg com meyers leonardo rtp dg com bill meyers writes a bill to establish the right to obtain firearms for security and to use firearms in defense of self family or home and to provide for the enforcement of such right in article qkshq l transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes maybe i m too religious but when i see a bill to establish a right i wince keep in mind what the law giveth the law can taketh away hey guys you re absolutely correct and well on the way to winning this battle and losing the war yes there are serious philosophical flaws in hr technical ones too how d you like to sue the feds lose and have to pay their reasonable attorney s fee still i have one basic question compared to what we ve got is hr a better or b worse this one shouldn t even take you three guesses compared to the second amendment i think it s worse the problem is the devil is in the details you know the brady bill sounds like a good idea too until you discover that there is no check and that the police don t have to allow your purchase even if you check out and that you have no recourse if they don t are there any loopholes here i m no lawyer i can t be sure i would have never noticed the second one mentioned above in the brady bill for example the more words involved the more details what was that saying about abraham lincoln requiring words to free the slaves and the modern congress requiring words to describe price controls on rice if there s a good enough show of support for hr maybe for a change we could be the ones saying it s a reasonable first step that only works with bad laws good laws are like good computer programs quality has to be written in from the start not added on later cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re photographers removed from compound in article c wjfz bus news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes i find this disturbing good keep thinking critically dont patronize me and i won t patronize you feel free to patronize me all you like i need the tips seriously if you were insulted i apologize the most tiresome thing about this group is that so many people tell others they are sucking up to the government when ever they decide that something the government says is plausible and praise them as independent thinkers whenever they find something the government says implausible people are sucking up to the government when they decide that only the things the government says are plausible especially if they refuse to consider reasonable alternatives however from what i saw plastered all over the tv news last night it s no longer necessary to be an independent thinker to depart from the government s party line it looks like our independent press may actually be starting to be earn its clothes allowance this to me is a good sign i hope it continues here s a clue independent thinkers are able to come to either conclusion depending on the circumstances non critical thinkers are the ones who would always come to the same type of conclusion regardless of the circumstances independent thinkers question authority in a situation where only one set of facts are being presented coming to a conclusion is not the hallmark of an independent thinker unless it s coupled with the ability to challenge those facts critically the scientific method consists of more than choosing the popular hypothesis it s even more than choosing between two hypotheses that other people have proposed cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re your evil tax dollars at work was re atf burns ranch etc etc in article mbs psuvm psu edu mark mark sachs mbs psuvm psu edu writes i find it tremendously chilling that so many people seem eager to believe a murderous heavily armed religious cult despite much evidence to the contrary murderous huh yeah there was all sorts of carnage going on there in the years they were there before the government assaulted them oh i forgot you probably consider self defense as murder thought experiment suppose this exact same thing happened under the bush administration what would your answer be then would you still prefer to believe the cultists damn right this is not a partisan thing it s about individual liberties the right of a citizen to be left the hell alone no i don t really expect a response to that challenge that s another indication that you don t understand the issue so is there any particular reason the gummint decided to slaughter eighty people are they like just plain evil or what did they just wake up one day stretch and yawn and throw a dart at a map of the united states to figure out who to oppress that day i m eager to know maybe they said our appropriations are coming up soon we need a good pr boost let s find a socially unpopular group who happen to have a lot of guns go in like gangbusters be heros and have the local media get it all on video tape then we won t have to worry about our budget until next year does bill clinton look good in a cape why don t you knit one to match his jogging outfit cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re clinton joins list of genocidal socialist leaders in article apr starbase trincoll edu writes in article r rnn rdt usenet ins cwru edu bu cleveland freenet edu perhaps you ve been under a rock the last few days the batf and the fbi are both federal agencies clinton has admitted in front of news cameras that janet reno the once and future attorney general gave him a full briefing of what was planned before they did it and he gave her the go ahead maybe just possibly that makes him a teensy bit responsible perhaps you ve been under a rock since say the turn of the century how in the is one man supposed to review every single freaking governmental action every day that s why we have an executive branch he reviewed the plan and said go but he wasn t the architect and he wasn t there bullhorn in hand implementing it yes he was responsible in the sense that he was briefed so what shit happens hey joe assuming you re old enough to remember it how did you feel about presidential responsibility every time reagan said i don t recall about his arms for hostages meetings with the ollie north gang how did you feel about it when bush said he was out of the loop on that decision when he was right there in the thick of it oh right he was responsible in the sense that he was briefed but so what shit happens is that what you said joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re bd s did themselves you re all paranoid freaks in article c wmp u boi hp com jeffw boi hp com jeff waldeck writes where did you hear about the thermal imaging i haven t heard this yet not that i doubt it i m just looking for sources this was reported in canadian papers thursday april i think the source was upi but don t recall for certain it seems to me that if they did have this kind of info they could broadcast it and it would resolve or at least help to resolve alot of doubt in people s minds personally the way the fbi batf reno etc is claiming all sorts of things without offering one shred of proof other than their good word is very suspicious to me a picture is worth a thousand words i understand that at least two goverment investigations have been ordered so we may learn more during their hearings i sincerely hope you are right and it turns out with indisputable proof broadcast across our land that the government groups had nothing to do with the fire but until i see such proof i think it is just as likely that a tank did knock over a lantern as koresh torching the place the only evidence i have seen is a tank crashing through the front wall withdrawing and seconds later flames are seen the first flames on the video erupting from this very same spot coincidence perhaps tough call without more investigation but if the thermal imaging story holds up i think the government will be more credable of course paranoia fans won t believe their results anyway will they if such proof exists the government should publish it and put all this speculation to rest hear hear i d also like to see the autopsy reports confirm news reports that multiple victims were found shot in the head and in positions inconsistent with fire victims it is simply too early to draw conclusions either way about this nasty incident but i tend to believe the government side the old frog s almanac a salute to that old frog hisse f ryugen fisher v x sco xenix gt ladysmith british columbia canada serving central vancouver island with public access usenet and internet mail home to the holocaust almanac
talk.politics.guns	re hallam baker bashes tpgers was re welcome to police state usa in article apr a cs okstate edu kennejs a cs okstate edu kennedy james scot writes from article c t ia f dscomsa desy de by hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker if anyone wants to understand the paranoid mindset of koresh i offer you talk politics guns there you can dredge the sewers of minds so hung up on power and ego trips that they bend reality arround their own particular set of beleifs just what the hell do you base that ludicrous claim on there are plenty of fine decent people people who read post to t p g if any of these people are paranoid it is because of people like you hey dude you are making me paranoid what an argument i long ago gave up arguing the case for arms control directly instead i invite people to ask themselves would you want to be in a room full of the occupants of talk politics guns their personal armouries and attempt to enter a discussion with them i d have a spot of tea with them you probably gave up on arguing the case for arms control directly long ago because posters who know what they are talking about e g frank crary disproved all your arguments for why more gun control is needed so you gave up because you know they are right and you couldn t refute their answers no frank crary s arguments are based on the assumption that most people are sane normal people tpg disproves this of gun owners usenet as a whole disproves it of humanity as a whole we now have proof positive that guns don t make you safer buy a lot of guns and you either get shot in the no knock raid or get the fbi to burn down your house see even in the paranoid mindset of tpg there are good reasons to support gun control cuddles n kisses phill
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in article l qxn rpi edu lswilfin mercury ral rpi edu lee s wilfinger writes cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes obnly something like of guns used in crime in the us are purchased from legitimate dealers and not necessarily by the person who used them in the crime so we already have that much gun control i ve seen this mentioned a number of times i m curious what is the source for this statistic the number bounces between and depending on the study quoted and the type of gun being studied some cites a recent batf study titled protecting america yes surveyed career criminals and found that only of guns used in violent crimes were purchased from retail dealers national institute of justice research in brief november the armed criminal in america by james d wright legitimate firearms retailers play only a minor role as direct sources of handguns for adult felony offenders only about one sixth of the gun owning felons obtained their most recent handguns through a customary retail transaction involving a licensed firearms dealer the remainder five out of six obtained them via informal off the record transactions involving friends and associates family members and various black market outlets the means of acquisition from these informal sources included cash purchase swaps and trades borrowing and renting and often theft the criminal handgun market is overwhelmingly dominated by informal transactions and theft as mechanisms of supply independence issue paper no independence institute denver west parkway golden co why gun waiting periods threaten public safety by david b kopel the basic problem with waiting periods is shown by a bureau of alcohol tobacco and firearms study of gun dealer sales in des moines and greenville the study found that about one to two percent of sales were to dangerous criminals in short waiting periods have no statistically noticeable impact on any type of crime because only a tiny fraction of crime guns are purchased at retail by ineligible buyers bureau of alcohol tobacco and firearms assistant director of criminal enforcement memorandum to director july greenville survey of names submitted to fbi for record checks had felony convictions of those had not been represented by counsel at their conviction or who committed crimes in the distant past twenty seven buyers were prosecuted of the of buyers selected for prosecution had non violent felony convictions and had violent convictions bureau of alcohol tobacco and firearms assistant director for criminal enforcement memorandum to director may of records checked were purchasers with felony records who were not appropriate for prosecution because of age or non violent nature of felony six purchasers were prosecuted independence issue paper no the assault weapon panic political correctness takes aim at the constitution by eric morgan and david kopel testimony before congress revealed that most assault weapons in the hands of criminals were obtained through illegal channels the testimony is consistent with the national institute of justice s research findings based on studies of felons in state prisons the nu study authored by sociologists james d wright and peter rossi found that only sixteen percent of criminals had obtained their most recent handgun from a gun store the figures included purchases by legal surrogates rather than directly by the criminal wright and rossi who had begun their research as firm proponents of gun control concluded that no set of controls on retail purchases and probably not even full scale gun prohibition would reduce criminal use of guns wright and rossi suggested that lawmakers concerned about gun crime directly target the black market in criminal guns and leave the legitimate retail market alone not surprisingly wright believes that the consequences of current assault weapon legislation on street violence are likely to be ineffective he warns that gun controls aimed at ordinary citizens are less likely to reduce the pool of criminal guns than to provide organized crime with lucrative new business see e g the anti drug assault weapons limitation act of s rep no st cong st sess hereinafter senate report introduced by senator deconcini to reduce semiautomatic firearms abuse by drug traffickers and violent criminals roberti roos assault weapons control act of cal penal code west hereinafter roberti roos md ann code art e placing greater restrictions on varieties of assault weapons and providing punishments for failure to comply or attempts to evade senate report supra note at james wright peter rossi armed and considered dangerous a survey of felons and their firearms new york aldine de gruyter lock and load for the gunfight of u s news world rep march at hereinafter gunfight wright also said if criminals can get all the drugs they want they can get guns too id james wright second thoughts about gun control the public interest spring at cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	government biggest cult leader look folks i don t know what happened in waco i do not claim the bds are angels i never did koresh may very well be the devil incarnate i just don t know but i do know that i must question any single source of information such as we have here and i must question even harder given that it is single source at the insistance of that very government what ever else happened at waco that is perhaps the biggest evil done and even more so in light of the discrepencies turning up between the federal officials and the state officials but what i really don t understand is the hoards of devoted government worshipers who believe the government could not possibly do any wrong they are fanatic to the point of making things up such as brent s microwave oven disclaim of the bd s using fire for food heating i am hard pressed to see any real difference between the claimed power koresh held over the bds and the demonstrated power the government holds over those rapid apologists jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.politics.guns	re hallam baker bashes tpgers was re welcome to police state usa in article c yypo ei dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes no frank crary s arguments are based on the assumption that most people are sane normal people tpg disproves this of gun owners usenet as a whole disproves it of humanity as a whole heavens everybody but phill is out of step we now have proof positive that guns don t make you safer buy a lot of guns and you either get shot in the no knock raid or get the fbi to burn down your house see even in the paranoid mindset of tpg there are good reasons to support gun control once again phill lets us all know that might makes right but only for the all sacred government cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	letter in colorado daily the colorado daily recently reprinted the wall street journal s article on paxton quigley including the nefarious little paragraph the journal tacked onto the end after recieving much assistance from various t p g type folks i wrote a letter to the editor criticizing this last paragraph and surprise surprise surprise they published it the text follows the colorado daily btw is the university of colorado boulder student i think newspaper not exactly a big coup but every little bit i guess the title was the only thing they changed added gun stats the daily recently reprinted an article from the wall street journal primarily concerned with paxton quigley author of armed and female the article in turn cites a misleading statistic that was originally reported in the new england journal of medicine the article states a study found that a gun in the home was times more likely to be used to kill its owner spouse a friend or child than to kill an intruder this is an often quoted statistic and it is misleading for sev eral reasons outlined below the study gives the impression that if you own a gun the likelihood that you will successfully use it to defend yourself is less than that of the gun being turned against you the study however fails to take into account cases where a law abiding citizen uses a gun to thwart a crime without actually killing the perpe trator the study actually refers to acquaintances rather than friend this would include the friendly neigh borhood thug who shows up like clockwork every month the second your grandmother cashes her social security check possibly an acquaintance but hardly a friend the nejm study is based on the immediate dis position of cases and fails to take into account cases originally filed as homicides that were later ruled to be self defense especially considering the small sample size taking these events into account has a sub stantial effect on the ratio quoted criminologist gary kleck gives us a slightly dif erent statistic a gun is times more likely to be used successfully by a private citizen against an aggressor than it is to kill anyone at all further per sons defending themselves from aggression by using a gun fare better than those who resist vicimization by some other means or who offer no resistance at all statistics available from the fbi and other agencies also show that a gun is times more likely to be used by a non criminal to defend against criminal threat than to be used to commit criminal homicide times more likely to be used to defend against a criminal threat than to accidentally kill anybody and times more likely to defend against criminal threat than to be used to commit suicide it is well to keep in mind that nearly anything can be proved by uncritical quotation of statistics one has to consider carefully what questions were asked by those gathering the data before one can draw an accu rate conclusion from them d f taylor cu department of chemistry and biochemistry spooksmoke revolution assasination thorium cobalt clintin cia nsa shc dod loki acca nmsu edu liberty or death taylordf ucsu colorado edu send me something even you can t read
talk.politics.guns	re the ballad of david koresh in article c w np usenet ucs indiana edu pwithere silver ucs indiana edu patricia anne withered writes the ballad of david koresh at concord and at waco the tyrant s minions failed though they all died in the fire koresh s people have prevailed good irony the waco finale was on april patriot s day on that day years earlier the militias of concord mass and other nearby towns repelled a gun control raid by the then current colonial government
talk.politics.guns	re bd s did themselves you re all paranoid freaks in article apr starbase trincoll edu writes in article r p oinn hi clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras wrote i have not made up my mind about waco but there sure seems to be a group of devoted government following fanatics willing to believe whatever that government wants to tell them without any shred of doubt nor thought of thier own they sure get shrill whenever their belief structure is being shaken kinda reminds you of the bds doesn t it jim go to hell i m no government following fanatic your sweeping generalizations evince your own ignorance eloquently if somewhat shrilly put what were they supposed to do just let him be well why not fuck him fuck the atf too they should ve done it right the first time you have a way with words and you sure get shrill on cue joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article r bfc bm eagle natinst com chrisb natinst com chris bartz writes in article r vg rl bigboote wpi edu mfrhein wpi wpi edu michael frederick rhein writes napalm then let the wood stove inside ignite it for heating purposes because of the weather in texas everyone now claims that it was for cooking stop and think about this this whole thread is rediculous who cares if they had a stove going or not does it matter if they had a stove burning or lanterns burning or candles burning or someone smoking etc etc etc the premise is that the fbi was filling the house with napalm so that it would catch fire this is crazy fbi was not pumping napalm into the davidians home you will have to have pretty damn strong evidence to convince me of that i can believe mass suicide murder by koresh i can believe an accident by the davidians i can believe an accident by the fbi i can easily believe mass stupidity on all sides but i can not believe that the fbi lit this fire intentionally no way i tend to agree but i would like a better explanation of why the fbi stopped the firetrucks at the gate i saw this in realtime it concerns me that the fbi appeared to not be too interested in stopping the fire after it started and actually started flying hueys around the compound which had to add in some small part to the winds driving the fire chris bartz chrisb natinst com jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.politics.guns	re fbi director s statement on waco standoff in c wi x cqs skates gsfc nasa gov dsc gemini gsfc nasa gov doug s caprette writes can anyone cite an example in which this defense was successful how about a source for this please take this thread out of tx politics talk politics guns which does not exist how about tx politics talk politics guns instead eh ed mcguire lbj freeway suite systems administrator dallas texas member of technical staff fax intellection inc ed intellection com apr jp tygra michigan com i run an anonymous server and it is staying for the rest of my life which should be about years
talk.politics.guns	re your evil tax dollars at work was re atf burns ranch etc etc mark mark sachs mbs psuvm psu edu writes in article mgb slacvm slac stanford edu mgb slacvm slac stanford edu says from a p according to numerous accounts by those in the compound the fire was started by an armoured vehicle crushing a large propane tank and turning over numerous gas lanterns oh then why did the smoke and flames start from three different places in particular three different places where there were no apv s this claim hasn t been retracted or contradicted yet as many earlier government claims have at least one clip showed a fire erupting after a tank busted in a wall we have unsubstantiated claims by the government about the flirs spotting simultaneous fires and if the government did start the fire then why weren t people trying to get out of the compound that s easy six hours of cs gas heavy smoke from a rapidly spreading fire confusion panic only got out the building was collapsing all around them and finding the way out was a matter of luck and besides oh i don t know why i m even bothering the davidians may have committed suicide or some few zealots among them might have started the fires that is possible but given the government s earlier inability to tell a straight story i find my above scenario equally possible i wait for some independent investigation to look into the whole thing it would be one thing if the government spokespeople had been consistent and forthright throughout keeping the press far away and ghettoized in pools was not conducive to building up trust sealing the warrants was non optimal as well this operation was out of control from the git go i find it tremendously chilling that so many people seem willing to accept the governments story despite much evidence to the contrary i find it tremendously chilling that so many people seem eager to believe a murderous heavily armed religious cult despite much evidence to the contrary thought experiment suppose this exact same thing happened under the bush administration what would your answer be then would you still prefer to believe the cultists speaking only for myself i think bush and reagan should have been impeached over iran contra in i would probably have given the benefit of the doubt to the government no more like i said i ll wait to see the results of an independent investigation if there is one before i choose whom to believe no i don t really expect a response to that challenge but you got one anyway but then again that is how mr clinton was elected by people who believe that his campaign promisses would be respected by him once he got into office um isn t that how all politicians are elected i generally vote for the lesser of two evils this last time it was the least of three evils if people will believe that of any politican it is little wonder they will believe all of the factoids being given out as fact by the clinton reno fbi batf confederation so is there any particular reason the gummint decided to slaughter eighty people are they like just plain evil or what did they just wake up one day stretch and yawn and throw a dart at a map of the united states to figure out who to oppress that day i m eager to know it was a bureaucratic execution out of control bureaucracies driven by percieved self interest and gross stupidity and does bill clinton have cooler theme music than darth vader how is he on diabolical laughter does he look good in a cape these things must be investigated you first clinton is just another statist my only problem with clinton on this is that he is apparently willing to blindly back the atf and fbi so i propose that we destroy the moon neatly solving that problem your blood pressure just went up mark sachs is mbs psuvm psu edu disclaimer if psu knew i had opinions they d try to charge me for them paul hager hagerp moose cs indiana edu i would give the devil benefit of the law for my own safety s sake from a man for all seasons by robert bolt
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch update feustel netcom com david feustel writes aej d cmuvm bitnet writes in article r d rinna e hp col col hp com dduff col hp com dave duff says nut case panics realizes he s made a complete fool of himself in front of thousands of netters backs away from earlier rash statements god have mercy on him i thought we were discussing koresh here not president clinton dave feustel n myi feustel netcom com dave clinton
talk.politics.guns	re bd s did themselves you re all paranoid freaks go to hell i m no government following fanatic your sweeping generalizations evince your own ignorance what were they supposed to do just let him be once upon a time that s exactly what they would have done everyone could have just gone on living a peaceful if well armed life what is it that makes people think they have the right not to just leave others be jason innocence joy and squeezable fun for everyone toys steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu
talk.politics.guns	re clinton joins list of genocidal socialist leaders in article apr starbase trincoll edu writes in article r h vinn clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras wrote you seem to make two points no one ultimately oversees the federal agencies you mention and since koresh apparently has a different view point from your baptist upbringing then he is not worthy of protection from religious persecution as to being the messiah is not christ within us all must be comforting to belong to a government approved religion baptists are a cult two btw under most of the definitions in the dictionary of cult i ve yet to meet a group of baptists who were stockpiling cambell s soup and m s ar s and banging marrying thirteen yuear olds i don t recall saying baptists do any of that though i suppose some do and none of them are listed in the dictionary as characteristics of a cult my mother stockpiled campbells soup when it was on sale you re a sorry son of a bitch if you can t draw a distinction between these two things you are an intolerent foul mouthed human you sound like you are ready to join the kkk or neo nazis with a narrow mind like yours people like you cheapen our constitution by using it to defend sociopaths who aren t deserved of it get a life and chill on the paranoia far from it i defend the rights of anyone to be different under our constitution which was formed in part to protect religious cults which had been persecuted in england before migrating here to be free you are the one endangering our constitution joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.politics.guns	re feds caught in another lie kdw icd ab com kenneth d whitehead writes well after days of hearing that of the bd bodies had been shot in the head horrors another jonestown crazed cultists child abusers whackos in waco last night the medical examiner was on tv and was pretty vehement in denying that any of them had bullet wounds he seemed just a tad upset at the feds for having spread that rumor funny the medical examiner today stated that there was no evidence one way or another that there were bullet wounds not a single autopsy has been performed so all reports are deemed speculative including reports that there were no bullet wounds before long i think all the kneejerk government apologists are going to start getting pretty pissed off at how easily they were misled before long i think all the kneejerk conspiracy theorists are going to start getting pretty pissed off at how easily they mislead themselves also pretty disappointed at being ignored by the coutnry the koresh cult standoff is over may his victims recquiescat in pace the above is a net moment of silence daniel a hartung dhartung chinet chinet com ask me about rotaract
talk.politics.guns	abc confirms two points of fbi s version well the question of why fire equipment took so long to reach the compound has been answered abc aired a report including the tapes from monday the fbi called within minutes of the fire s breakout unfortunately dispatch of vehicles outside the waco city limits required approval of a deputy chief who was not available literally out to lunch the operator desperately called around to local community volunteer fire departments to get something out there by the time trucks arrived minutes later the whole complex was aflame and it was clearly too little too late there were just two pumpers and no water supply the fbi made another call requesting a tank truck but the waco department apparently depended on hydrants and did not have one though clearly unwilling to risk firemen s lives in the line of fire it seems they might have done so had there been sufficient equipment and water to make a difference they even aired a tape of a woman who called waco from georgia asking if anything was being done civic minded but probably irresponsible if everyone watching television did that no local calls could get through abc also aired the comments of an independent fire investigator who viewed tapes from more than one side of the compound not just the standard pool shot and agreed that the fire a must have been started in at least places and b must have had an accelerant to spread so fast neither of these is conclusive proof that the koresh crowd offed themselves more than the fbi offed them but it s a heck of a lot stronger proof than some of the theories floating around the net score fbi branch davidians or is that branch davidians the koresh cult standoff is over may his victims recquiescat in pace the above is a net moment of silence daniel a hartung dhartung chinet chinet com ask me about rotaract
talk.politics.guns	medical examiner says no evidence for bullet wounds either way apparently needing to clarify his comments from thursday dr nizam plawaby spelling the medical examiner for tarrant county texas who has authority in the waco deaths stated that since no autopsies had been performed there is no evidence for bullet wounds or evidence against bullet wounds janet reno also stated that she had never been told of bullet wounds by anyone in the justice department the koresh cult standoff is over may his victims recquiescat in pace the above is a net moment of silence daniel a hartung dhartung chinet chinet com ask me about rotaract
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes gt b prism gatech edu bhattacharya abhijit writes i doubt if koresh had let the batf have a look inside his place as they intended to do orchestrated character assassination noise torture and a holocaust would never have come to pass do you know what a no knock search with grenades is once again koresh closed the door on an agent with a search warrant and the door was then perforated by a rain of bullets from the inside they shot first the koresh cult standoff is over may his victims recquiescat in pace the above is a net moment of silence daniel a hartung dhartung chinet chinet com ask me about rotaract
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch update irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes in article c uhuo awq usenet ucs indiana edu wwarf silver ucs indiana edu wayne j warf writes in article nate psygate psych indiana edu nate psygate psych indiana edu nathan engle writes yeah as information trickles in funny how that works funny yeah funny how you didn t wait for the fbi spokesdroid latest reversal of facts before proclaiming the bd s burned themselves to death if you won t believe anything the government says and the press is not reliable according to the same logic then what do you base your statements on wild speculation laced with a healthy dose of paranoia it is not a matter of dis belief but a matter of which of their constantly and radically changing stories we are to believe steve b personal opinions why brent irvine yes what did you think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu they were
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today kevin axon usa kevin vanhorn writes in article c rpoj ijv news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes two of the nine who escaped the compound said the fire was deliberately set by cult members correction the fbi says that two of the nine who escaped said the fire was deliberately set by cult members since the press was kept miles away we have absolutely no independent verification of any of the government s claims in this matter indeed larry king had the two attorneys whose clients are now dead of koresh and another davidian on his show last night their discussions with the survivors differ from the fbi account the attorneys say that they were told that the tanks knocked over lanterns in the compound which started the fires government spokespeople have lied and contradicted each other throughout this whole affair i ll wait for some better evidence before i form an opinion paul hager hagerp moose cs indiana edu i would give the devil benefit of the law for my own safety s sake from a man for all seasons by robert bolt
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article c tomp o news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes and another survivor claims he heard someone shouting the fire s started odd terminology that s what one says when you know a fire is planned not when one occurs by accident it s also what you say when you re waiting for the end to come in a fiery apocalypse just a thought personally if the fire was set by either side i wonder about the timing if koresh co set the fires why wait through six hours of wall bashing and tear gassing before starting was there anything new that happened just around that point similarly if the fbi were going to torch the place and fake it of course why wait so long wouldn t it be more reasonable to believe the bd s would set the fire early after the assault began the most plausible to me explaination is that of an accidental starting of the fire by the tanks among other things i say that because i was listening to the radio when the fire started and the reporter watching from a distance of course said that it looked like at least one of the tanks had penetrated farther into the building than previously specifically he said that one tank apparently was halfway half of the tank s lenght into the building where it previously had only been penetrating a few feet reserving judgement aaron
talk.politics.guns	re fbi director s statement on waco standoff cescript mtu edu charles scripter writes oh how about the press if the batf fbi were going to shoot people leaving a burning building don t you think they would get rid of the press first oh you mean something like moving the press back to a single location miles away from the compound the press was allowing that doesn t count as getting rid of the press getting rid of the press would mean getting them far enough away so that they wouldn t be able to see what is going on tim smith
talk.politics.guns	re waco burning in article c wcyb n f dscomsa desy de hallam zeus desy de writes perhaps you consider that hitler was not responsible for the holocaust since the allies could have done more to stop him attention please according to the rules of usenet flame wars once a discussion degenerates to the point where hitler is mentioned that flame war may be declared ended i would like to take this opportunity to do that now clearly further discussion is not useful with the current set of facts and the current name calling and invocation of hitler s name is not productive even by the standards of usenet talk groups if you must continue please don t discuss this in misc legal it s not about the law if you would like to discuss the law as it applies to the waco incident please ask questions of the form if the fbi started the fire accidentally who would be legally responsible for the deaths note that followups are set not to include misc legal john carr jfc athena mit edu
talk.politics.guns	has the pronpane tank been found much of the dispute about the origin of the fire that destroyed the bd compound could be settled by examining the propane tank supposedly crushed by one of the army tanks when they breached the walls of the compound if the the propane tank is flattened and has tread marks on it then the bd s version of the cause of the fire would seem to be verified dave feustel n myi feustel netcom com the u s government has become a garrotte around the necks of its citizens just as with a garrotte the more people struggle to breathe the air of freedom the more the government tightens its stranglehold the only possible outcomes at this point are the death of government or the elimination of personal freedom
talk.politics.guns	re your evil tax dollars at work was re atf burns ranch etc etc cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article apr hpcvusn cv hp com kam cv hp com keith marchington writes that s another sad thing i d expect this sort of shit from the batf but i m goddamn disappointed in the fbi they used to be professionals apparently you are unfamiliar with the history of the fbi you might try looking up articles from the s on the fbi s cointelpro operation for starters dave feustel n myi feustel netcom com the u s government has become a garrotte around the necks of its citizens just as with a garrotte the more people struggle to breathe the air of freedom the more the government tightens its stranglehold the only possible outcomes at this point are the death of government or the elimination of personal freedom
talk.politics.guns	re waco questions what is the condition of the propane tank mentioned by the bd survivors i e is it crushed and does it have tread marks on it dave feustel n myi feustel netcom com the u s government has become a garrotte around the necks of its citizens just as with a garrotte the more people struggle to breathe the air of freedom the more the government tightens its stranglehold the only possible outcomes at this point are the death of government or the elimination of personal freedom
talk.politics.guns	re what if the dividians were black in article c yeab hac news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes in article apr medtron medtronic com rn medtronic com robert nehls writes kenneth d whitehead kdw icd ab com wrote oleary cbnewsh cb att com brian m leary writes questions for the media and the politically correct if the people in the compound were black and the guys in ninja suits some of the davidians are black next question still thinking you have all the answers eh jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.politics.guns	re your evil tax dollars at work was re atf burns ranch etc etc lord i hope you don t hoover was a pro he was monstrous dan
talk.politics.guns	re raid justification was blast them next time rick bressler bressler iftccu ca boeing com wrote forgot to leave in his quote source what happened in waco is not the fault of the batf if they would of had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the compound on the initial assault and none of this would of happened the batf is a part of the dept of treasury not justice if they needed to assault a place they could just do like the irs does call in the federal marshalls service their fugitive collection teams do similar type assaults all the time and they are very very good about it in both the tactical and legal parts of it but i suspect that the marshalls would not have touched it because the search warrant which is still sealed i believe was so bogus besides the batf also could have gotton swat teams from federal marshalls service fbi secret service national park service texas rangers nearby large city police forces the military but they had to use their own guys nobody elses swat team was good enough for the holy cause of gun control i also find the timing of the raid to be extremely interesting initial raid two days before the nj senate was going to overturn their assault weapon confiscation law a couple weeks before the batf s budget was going to come up in congress for review shortly after reno got confirmed as ag i don t need to remind you about her anti gun line right around the presidents th day in office as a wise man once said once is happenstance twice is coincidence three times is enemy action i don t believe that these four things are conincidental do you food for thought dale farmer
talk.politics.guns	re fbi director s statement on waco standoff paull hplabsz hpl hp com robert paull writes mr nice guy rcanders nyx cs du edu wrote the branch davidians were not violent and were not planning to start violence when the bd compound was assaulted by the atf the bd did fire back but they agreed to a cease fire and they allowed the atf to care for their wounded the bd even released the atf agents they captured it is clear from the release of the agents and allowing the atf medical attention that the bd were not looking for trouble this is the first i ve heard of the bd capturing and releasing atf agents is there any more info about this rob p it was filmed the day of the first assault the bds clearly allowed the batf agents who were shot and wounded to leave the compound the lesson i suppose is that you should keep shooting untill all the pigs are dead and then get the fuck outa dodge never give a pig an even break seeeeee ya turmoil halcyon com fuck the police
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch update wwarf silver ucs indiana edu wayne j warf writes then post what the press has said not what you wished they said the medical examiner has refuted the fbi facts and if you don t believe someone who has a lot more reason to be impartial then what do you have to say for yourself in the interest of accuracy seems a liitle late to start that i know the medical examiner has not contradicted the fbi the fbi said they found some folks who had been shot in the head and the medical examiner said we have not seen evidence of this at the time the medical examiner said that they were dealing with charred bodies in the compound this sounds like typical medical examiner not releasing details until a thorough investigation the medical examiner saying he hasn t seen something is not the same thing as saying that it isn t there while it might end up being true that the fbi had spoken falsely it isn t clear yet that they have
talk.politics.guns	re waco fire in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu rcanders nyx cs du edu mr nice guy writes flash over is a frequent occurrence with indoor fires a fire will start small and in one location and heat the air the temperature in the room builds up and then everything inflammable in the room catches fire at once this may have occurred in the bd compound i have heard reports that the windows were covered which would permit a fire to start unnoticed by those outside the compound when the fire got big enough and broke through the walls it appeared to be started in two places but was really one big fire the houston chronicle last thursday maybe wednesday said that the interior of walls had been covered with hay bales to help protect against bullets many of you know how fast dry hay burns because of the large quantities of tear gas inserted into the building it is possible that many of the women and children were in a room free of tear gas they would try to seal the door to keep out the tear gas when they learned that a fire had broken out it was too late for them to escape they were trapped by the flames in their safe room in addition the gas is specifically designed to force eyes closed and the victim to vomit how fast could you leave your burning office or home if your eyes were closed and you were retching violently i find it hard to believe that the fbi was not recording the final assault i think that they would have wanted to have tapes to show their agents of the the fbi overcoming the forces of evil aka the branch davidians the tapes would also allow the fbi to prove that they were not using excessive force thomas rush compaq computer corporation thomasr cpqhou compaq com their employee not their opinions candidate for misd magnolia texas school board seat may
talk.politics.guns	quotes requested i need quotes from jefferson hamilton madison or any of the other founders that support the idea that the second amendment was written into the constitution so that the populace could protect itself it the government began to degenerate into tyrrany if you have any with sources please mail them to me thanks jonathan s haas jake liked his women the way he liked university of michigan his kiwi fruit sweet yet tart firm positron eecs umich edu fleshed yet yielding to the touch and finger for pgp key covered with short brown fuzzy hair
talk.politics.guns	re batf initiating violence sources in article r aj c hpchase rose hp com k hprnd rose hp com steve kao writes i ve long since lost any newspaper or magazine article that mentions how the batf said they tossed a grenade instead of knocked on the door to serve the search warrant on the bd compound does anyone have any references i m just looking for periodicals newspapers and dates a copy of the article is not needed but i wouldn t mind seeing it posting here or e mail is fine the associated press had an article on monday march i believe which quoted witnesses as describing batf agents throwing grenades prior to any gunfire on the part of the davidians it was among the first of a crop of different mutually exclusive descriptions david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.guns	re the dayton gun buy back re boston gun buy back has anyone considered how to prosecute a city holding a no questions asked buy back for receiving stolen property intel corp w chandler blvd chandler az
talk.politics.guns	re change of name we all know what a quisling is right obviously we don t vidkun quisling is known to be a traitor in norway not a censor if i have betrayed my country norway bescause i implied that som of you jumped to conclusions sound a little paranoid then i think there is a lot of quislings in norway perhaps i wasn t sufficiently clear i was not accusing you of being a quisling the quislings are in our own u s government throwing away the people s right to keep and bear arms at least that s where the ones that i intended to refer to are i figured that people on this newsgroup would interpret that as intended but obviously something of my intent got lost steve
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi do right thing in waco in article apr gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes if the batf and fbi have become latter day gestapo then they have become that way because we have desired them to be so we get to vote on laws and on the lawmakers i keep hearing people say this it assumes that we at some point had a choice at the ballot box vote yes or no i want the fbi and batf to become latter day gestapos that just isn t so the process is far more complex we do not have direct control over the bureaucracy when we evaluate our representatives we don t often know what their contribution is to the wayward direction of the federal law enforcement bureacracy to assert that we got what we wanted is absurd waco was an encapsulation of the all american experience religious fanaticism militaristic thinking and overwhelming violence don t blame it on them the fbi and batf they were just acting within the parameters we have set over the years we made them we are them oh good i feel much better now by the way do you have a plan for getting us out of this mess we are in
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article apr synapse bms com hambidge bms com writes mst rigel tamu edu mitchell s todd writes if there was a large propane tank and it was breached don t you think that there would be an identifiable explosion from what i saw of the videotape there was an explosion which looked more like one due to propane rather than official version ammunition i would agree that a propane explosion is as likely as an ammunition explosives blast my question was directed to the person who claimed that the propane tank was likely ruptured by the tank before or just as the fire started if that were true shouldn t the explosion have happened very soon after the fires started the only evidence that exists right now at least what we know about is various claims and counter claims i m waiting until the hard evidence is released what about you if only we could be certain that the hard evidence will be released the fbi has made such a fuss over the videotapes and other evidence that they have to release something sooner or later it s going to happen and we ll get to see for ourselves often law enforcement agencies will withold evidence from public view until the investigation is over mitchell s todd mst zeus tamu edu
talk.politics.guns	new hampshire and maine non resident carry permit application for those who live near or plan to vacation in new hampshire and maine i am posting the basic info of how to apply for a ltc ccw in those states for non residents post will be in rec guns j case kim kim husc harvard edu
talk.politics.guns	ap rifles i just read a clari article about how among the other weapons the bd had purched they had two barrett caliber armor piercing rifles how the hell do you use an armor piercing rifle run up to a tank and try to stab it once again ignorance prevails amongst the media aaron arc cco caltech edu
talk.politics.guns	slick rushie tries to have it both ways again today rush was criticizing clinton for not claiming responsibility for the actions and decisions of janet reno and the fbi early enough to suit rush about months ago rush was chortling over the fact that reagan has stumped special persecutor walsh with his croaking of i don t remember when asked about ollie north if rush s criticism of clinton were to be applied to reagan and north reagan would have been impeached while north was convicted and overturned on a technicality gosh rush sure wants to have it both ways clinton must be held responsible but reagan was clever by using the amnesia defense maybe that s waht clinton should say about campaign promises and such well there you go again rush but to tell the truth i wasn t in the loop and i just don t remember
talk.politics.guns	waco headlines and editorial in boston globe boston globe wednesday april col bodies found in ruins as fbi defends raid on cult ranch col clinton blames koresh orders probe of siege col the children panws in a horrifying game pg col editorial page judgment at waco now the scientific and political scrutiny of the horror show in waco begins though nothing can undo the tragedy that might have been prevented there forensic experts will study the rubble and ashes of the branch davidian compound where at least people including children perished in smoke and fire caused by theapocalyptic visions of a manipulative madman and a stunning lapse in judgment by federal law enforcement officials emphasis added by me investigators will re create conditions at the compound and identify accelerants and other fac tors fueling the inferno that is their strong suit but the public must question why agents of the federal bureau of investigation lacked the oper ational skill and teh behavioral insight to resolve the day standoff free of flames and fury the loss of life most clearly reflects the demen tia of cult leader david koresh whose personal delusiosn are now seared on the public conscious ness his assembly of davidians had stockpiles of arms and had used them little in the way of rationality could be expected from koresh a self confsesed sinner without equal what continues to mystify are th eactions of federal agents who bungled the case from the start the misadventure began on feb when agents of the federal bureau of alcohol to bacco and firearms storemd the compound intent on seizing koresh and a cache of automatic weap ons four agents and an estimated six cult mem bers died inteh ensuing gun battle earlier oppor tunities to isolate and arrest koresh outside the complex had not been adequately explored authorities prepared a siege and resolved that those deaths would be the last fifty one days into the siege there was no public outcry to storm the compound it had been correctly perceived that the chil dren inside rancho apocalypse were essentially hostages with their lives at stake there was no reason for the government to be impatient the government s superior firepower control of water and utilities and freedom of movement created the conditions for a belated but bloodless resolution neither attorney general janet reno nor the fbi has provided a sigle compelling reason for abandondoning the course of patience if intelligence was accurate and koresh was growing increasingly violent and bizarre it is diffi cult to see how a tear gas attack launched by an m combat vehicle would clear his mind if re ports of escalating child abuse were accurate they would have to be weighted against the potential for eve ngreated hamr etc etc tec paragraphs paragraphs deleted but some of the responsibility rests with clinton and inexperienced president who did not pay enough attention to the life and death decisions being made on waco if reno is to be faulted for anything ti would be for her overreliance on the judgment of law en forcement officers a common problem among prosecutors full investigations into th ewaco tragedy must be conducted by both the executive and legislative branches the first step is to verify how the blaze started though apportioning blame will play a role it is of greater importnace to find strategies to elude the fire next time end of editorial j case kim kim husc harvard edu
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes if the fbi started the fire why didn t people flee the burning building assuming the fire was caused by lanterns and stoves being knocked about by the tanks pushing on the walls would shake a building pretty good perhaps they didn t flee because fleeing would have meant entering the fire from the other side like they were surrounded by the fire and rubble which finally combined with teargas and combustion gasses overcame and enveloped them in other words they were trapped by the flames heat fumes and rubble wait a minute the story being pushed here is that the fire started in one place this is not consistent with the story that they were trapped by the fire particularly in a building that all of a sudden had many more exits choose one please does that sound plausable not as dramatic as korash forcing them to stay or shooting them no shot victims found yet but plausable well for everyone besides koresh and his blood children we can assume independent choice ah they chose to stay in the face of an assault which clearly endangered their lives or alternatively they were not permitted to leave choose one the koresh cult standoff is over may his victims recquiescat in pace the above is a net moment of silence daniel a hartung dhartung chinet chinet com ask me about rotaract
talk.politics.guns	waco inside story ap was re atf burns fbrown seaway ssd kodak com frank brown writes this is the ap story from fri morning as the walls came tumbling down and tear gas filled the air cult leader david koresh sprang into action he left his third floor bedroom and began looking around the house making sure women and children were secure and checking that everyone had their gas masks on properly within hours the compound became an inferno nine branch davidians excaped this is their story gleaned from lawyers who spoke with six of them who are jailed on charges that include conspiracy and murder that day the six said a portable radio offered the only contact with the outside world since koresh s right hand man steve schneider ripped out the compounds s phone line after fbi agents called before dawn monday saying this was the cults last chance come out or prepare to get forced out aw gee and whose fault is that they kept their word by dawn tanks were battering the mount carmel compound punching for hours to creat holes for tear gas to enter the bd meanwhile proceeded with their daily routines strapped into gas masks the women did laundry others read bibles in their rooms the children all under remained by their mothers sides still it was hard to ignore what was happening around them each time a tank rammed the poorly constructed building it shook violently cult members dodges falling gypsum wallboard and doors dear dear they could have come out hundreds of gas canisters hurled in from the armored vehicles were filling the air with noxious fumes the flying canisters were more frightening than the tanks at least one man was hit in the face dear dear they could have come out the gas began filling the air driven by heavy gusts of wind coming through windows and the holes the tanks made it couldn t have gotten too heavy with all that wind blowing through scattered throughout the house the cult members made no efforts to gather then the fbi sent in its biggest weapon a massive armored vehicle headed for a chamber lined with cinder blocks where authorities hoped to find koresh and schneider and fire tear gas directly at them here the cult members story diverges from the government s version the fbi says cult members set fires in three places but each of the six cult members in separate discussions with lawyers consistently gave versions at odds with the fbi s account they say the tank flattened a barrel of propane spilling its contents and as the tank thundered through the house it tipped over lit lanterns spitting flames that ignited the propane and other flammables the home of used lumber plywood and wallboard tacked together with tar paper was vulnerable the building erupted nine bd s escaped jumping through windows and dashing through other openings others died groping in the blackness sad but they could have come out the koresh cult standoff is over may his victims recquiescat in pace the above is a net moment of silence daniel a hartung dhartung chinet chinet com ask me about rotaract
talk.politics.guns	take the waco quiz impress your friends win valuable cash prizes the waco quiz what would you do in the following hypothetical situations you have committed no crime the batf conducts a no knock raid a hands in air say do you have a warrant think of hefty suit settlement b say you have second to identify yourself as a cop or i shoot c shoot heck at least in federal prison you might get to have sex you have killed federal agents they blast strange music at you a come out with hands up i wish to turn state s evidence hope deal s good b wait figuring other federal agents will get bored and go on vacation c wait if they come after you there will be a chance to kill more g men the fbi has you surrounded asks you to come out immediately a come out figuring long prison term is chance to catch up on some writing b stall you just can t concentrate when you re on trial for some reason c decide to write novel length prophecy now while ideas are fresh in mind fbi calls and says they will use tear gas if you don t come out a come out with hands up your radical bro in law hated getting gassed at uc b get out your gas mask really these feds will have to give up eventually c shoot at vehicles delivering tear gas it s rude to break down a man s door fbi calls and says they will use tanks to break down your walls a come out with your hands up flimsy cardboard construction won t last long b with presence of mind move flammable devices away from tinder dry haybales c spread some kerosene around and hit a match big schwarzenegger ending points are awarded in the following manner points for every a answer points for every b answer and points for every c answer count em up and compare with your friends if you answered a all the time you are probably in jail but alive if you answered b all the time you may still be holed up in your compound if you answered c all the time you are probably dead feel free to copy this and distribute to your friends the koresh cult standoff is over may his victims recquiescat in pace the above is a net moment of silence daniel a hartung dhartung chinet chinet com ask me about rotaract
talk.politics.guns	re the truth about waco jgd dixie com john de armond writes nothing could at this point what would have gone a long way toward convincing me would have been media video particularly from diverse sources imho if the government didn t have anything to hide they would have allowed cameras near the compound from the beginning i agree i saw no reason they could not have had close in pool cameras manned by volunteers and protected by sandbags or whatever points made by dick degueran koresh s lawyer the tanks were not pumping cs gas but were ejecting exploding canisters from the tank booms that penetrated multiple walls before exploding okay their word against the fbi s at this point see ya in court the tanks were collapsing interior walls and ceilings putting people at great risk dear dear they could have come out the construction of the coupound used almost all used materials that were very dry and bails of hay were stacked against the walls as shields against the government s bullets okay they were living in a fire hazard that they built said that previous to the invasion there were no military drills and that the supplies they had on hand were for survival no crime irrelevant either way their gas masks worked so well that many members were having bible study and some were sleeping when the fire was set ah yes that is exactly what i would do hold bible study take a nap always a wise course of action when you re being gassed there was no group instruction of any kind from koresh or his aids after the tank invasion referring to any kind of suicide pact or counter assault efforts i don t believe there was a suicide pact i believe that koresh wanted a fiery conflagration which he may not have told his followers in fact this hypothesis is confirmed by the survivors stories everyone had moved to the center of the compound in order to escape the falling debris from the tank invasion when the fire was set yes that s right and once the whole compound was demolished where did they expect to go women and children who has sought shelter on the second floor from the tanks were trapped by doors jammed by the tanks ramming the building and distorting the frames the building is being rammed and they are going upstairs that s almost as bad as running into a fire hallways ran the length of the buildings that acted as conduits for the fire and trapped almost everyone in place his experts have told him that this horizonal chimney effect is what made the fire appear to have started at several places at once hm an interesting notion we ll see koresh was not seen the last hour before the fire and was assumed to be in his th floor room with some of his children more bible study no doubt hey it s a priority the texas medical examiner has stated flatly that none of the bodies recovered so far had bullet wounds directly contradicting the fbi s lies actually on friday he stated that there was no evidence either way and he could not flatly contradict the federal agents claims we ll know more later in any event it s irrelevant the survivors unanimously stated that if the victims could have gotten out they would have that they were trapped by the tank destroyed building and the speed of the fire for six hours they were trapped the building was not destroyed immediately they could have left at any time the underground bunker cited by the fbi as the place koresh could have put the children had he not been a cold blooded killer had been blocked by the tanks crashing down debris on top of the access door six hours to move it away or come out dick said that he had sat in koresh s bedroom talking to him and had observed that his room was furnished like all the rest and without air condition or other luxuries directly contradicting the fbi s claim that he lived in splendor irrelevant anyway pr one way or the other but no crime or innocence indicated dick saw bullet holes in koresh s room made from the outside in which indicates the batf was indiscriminately shooting down through the roof no word on whether they were being fired back at which is an operative question here the fire was probably started by the tanks knocking over coleman lanterns that were lit and sitting on a piano next to the wall the tanks busted through though none of the survivors saw the fire start right for six hours you know that a tank could come thru the wall at any point and you leave a coleman lantern burning near bales of hay every one of the survivors strongly denies ever saying anything to the fbi about starting the fire hearing someone say the fire was lit or any of the other stuff attributed to them by the fbi it s ultimately irrelevant who lit the fire they had ample opportunity to leave he said when he first met koresh in the compound he expected to find a raving lunatic but instead found a rational charming and intelligent young man and was very surprised by that fact most charismatic leaders are extremely intelligent actually they tend to be excellent actors and skilled manipulators ex ted bundy koresh had no drugs stronger than aspirin to use against pain medical assistance was jsut a phone call away gee all he had to do was come out women with children had their own bedrooms for them and their kids that were appointed as nicely as koresh s not relevant to any crimes dick said he saw signs of home schooling for the kids and at no time did he ever see any signs of abuse while he was there anyway outsiders rarely see abuse it s a secretive thing all we have to go on are the court documents in the jewell case and the mistrial in california no one was ever held against their wills and could have left at any time the people who were murdered in the fire were there by their own choices exactly by their own choice he called for an independent prosecutor if ever there were a need for one this is it looks like there will be several investigations starting with congressional committee hearings next week his closing comments were they don t look upon themselves as a cult they view themselves as highly religious people they sincerely believe what they believe and who am you or i to judge that as wrong his last sentence says it all who the hell are we or the government to judge their religion as wrong this event i hope will be recorded in history as the american holocaust these people were murdered by the us government just as surely as the jews were by the nazis i hang my head in shame for what i ve allowed my government to become i have never judged them by their religion but by their actions if they had lived a quiet religious life as they claimed there would have been no raid no siege and no deaths instead they chose courses of action at every turn that were at the very least stupid if not irrational the first was to stockpile weapons the second was to shoot federal agents the third was to stay inside just as we don t blame a cop who shoots a kid who had pointed a toy weapon at him i don t think the fbi deserves blame in this case the koresh cult standoff is over may his victims recquiescat in pace the above is a net moment of silence daniel a hartung dhartung chinet chinet com ask me about rotaract
talk.politics.guns	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption in article strnlghtc tr d n n netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes though i agree this is not the place to discuss guns i note in passing that a number of gun apologists seem to have ignored the words well regulated in their distorted interpretations of the second amendment though david sternlight pushes the envelope of credibility by claiming that talk politics guns is not the place to discuss guns or the meaning of the second amendment it seems he would rather post to millions of people out of relative ignorance of the subject than to follow the currently active threads discussing exactly this topic which at least explore the fallacies of his erroneous claim and at most explode them basic fact mr sternlight the right described is a right of the people to keep and bear arms not a right of the people to form a militia a right of a militia to keep and bear arms or a right of well regulated people to keep and bear arms this should be apparent from a simple reading of the sentence for the other arguments i suggest you check out the thread some more about gun control playing now in an alt politics usa constitution near you cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re the dayton gun buy back re boston gun buy back on wed apr gmt larry cipriani lvc cbnews cb att com wrote according to wnci fm radio this morning dayton ohio is operating a gun buy back they are giving for every functional gun turned in they ran out of money in one day and are now passing out vouchers of some sort they are looking for more funds to keep operating another media event brought to you by hci is there something similar pro gun people can do for example pay to anyone who lawfully protects their life with a firearm sounds a bit tacky but hey whatever works how about a gun buy back charity get some sponsors to fund the purchase of used firearms have a gunsmith check them over and give or sell them at a low price to poor persons wishing to own firearms ok you guys can work out the details of who is needy etc charles scripter cescript phy mtu edu dept of physics michigan tech houghton mi when all government in little as in great things shall be drawn to washington as the centre of all power it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated thomas jefferson
talk.politics.guns	re who s next mormons and jews in article c s n dyj world std com rjk world std com robert j kolker writes take their oath at the fortress lo tepol shaynit matzadah matzadah will not fall again these zealots holy fuck israel armenia turkey greece croatia serbia bosnia russia germany iran the arab world war please allow me to introduce myself sympathy i m a man of wealth and taste for the devil i ve been around for long long years the laibach stolen many a man s soul and faith remixes
talk.politics.guns	re the truth about waco ok quick scenario you re at home not bothering anybody next thing you know somebody comes crashing in the upstairs window and you hear an explosion you see that this individual has a submachinegun and that more similarly armed individuals are rushing your front door will you a defend yourself and family against this attack b realize oh only the batf would enter like that so i better surrender or c roll over and let whoever is attacking your home do what they would like you have chosen a and discover that the people you defended yourself against are federal agents who now are camped outside your door waiting for you to surrender you have learned that they intend to charge you with murder and are further defaming your name while claiming that you can safely surrender at any time then they start using psychological warfare techniques against you while still claiming that you can safely give up and will receive a fair trial some weeks into this standoff you are still holding out when they begin a new ploy to induce your surrender namely using tear gas to annoy you and ramming your home with tanks yet they claim that you can safely surrender at any time while you patiently wait out this latest round of attacks your house catches fire and the bales of hay you were using as cover spread the fire rapidly through the house and you try to escape through the fortifications you had raised for your own defense and the rubble created by the tanks only of your followers make it i am not claiming that the above scenario is accurate i am disagreeing with the notion that it is their own fault for dying because they refused to surrender to agents of the federal government after another federal agency committed an armed assault of their home on the basis of a flimsily concocted search warrant look at how the texas rangers view the batf look at the fbi statements regarding the batf actions from all apparent sources the fbi blundered trying to clean up the mess made by the batf resulting in an accidental fire which killed most of the bd s who were still in the compound and are now playing cya the batf committed an illegal assault obtained the use of texas ng resources with fabricated allegations and compounded their abuses by accusing the bd s of crimes outside their jurisdiction once they had been held off in their assault james s cochrane when in danger or in doubt run in this space gt a prism gatech edu circles scream and shout for rent
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in article c bie zl undergrad math uwaterloo ca papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca paul prescod writes in article apr anasazi com john anasazi com john r moore writes they were driving down a heavily used street in the middle of the day when a car with young black males pulled up behind them and one of the occupants fired mm rounds into the rear of their truck both the man and his fiancee pulled their pistols and returned fire driving off the attackers their child suffered a flesh wound to his arm and the parents sustained grazes from the incident what a beautiful country you people have built for yourselves enjoy it yes we do have a beautiful country and i enjoy it most of all i enjoy the thought that i have the means and can exercise my rights to defend me and mine and i want to thank all of you good folks like prescod who remind me of what i have along this line i watched a documentary on one of the nazi concentration camps stacks and stacks of bodies there were scenes of hitler speechifying and what struck me was the reverence and adoration on the faces of the people in the crowds i guess they were happy that hitler had implemented full gun control and was taking care of the jewish problem all at the same time lee
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article c od avc chinet chi il us dhartung chinet chi il us dan hartung writes pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes if the fbi started the fire why didn t people flee the burning building assuming the fire was caused by lanterns and stoves being knocked about by the tanks pushing on the walls would shake a building pretty good perhaps they didn t flee because fleeing would have meant entering the fire from the other side like they were surrounded by the fire and rubble which finally combined with teargas and combustion gasses overcame and enveloped them in other words they were trapped by the flames heat fumes and rubble wait a minute the story being pushed here is that the fire started in one place this is not consistent with the story that they were trapped by the fire particularly in a building that all of a sudden had many more exits choose one please what if what if the fbi thought that tear gas would force the davidians out at least the mothers and the children so they the fbi did not bother to think about the effect of tear gas on young children what if the fbi knew they killed several of the children by using tear gas let s assume the fbi knew via their listening devices what if the fbi saw fire accidently break out at one end of the building e g by an upset oil lamp what if the fbi thought they could finally force the rest of the davidians out and also destroy the evidence that they the fbi had killed the children by starting a fire at the other end what if the fbi miscalculated and not many of the rest of the davidians made it out answer what happened
talk.politics.guns	re the truth about waco in article dan hartung writes endless remarks of how the davidians could have surrendered deleted if they had lived a quiet religious life as they claimed there would have been no raid no siege and no deaths instead they chose courses of action at every turn that were at the very least stupid if not irrational the first was to stockpile weapons the second was to shoot federal agents the third was to stay inside if they had been quiet there would have been no deaths i thought thier neighbors said that the davidians never bothered them oh well that couldn t have been your point then if they hadn t been stockpiling weapons then the atf wouldn t have felt threatened and had to move in here s a newsflash it isn t illegal to own more than one firearm it isn t even illegal to own lots of firearms they shot federales the feds shot them too how about that staying inside thing here s another newsflash sometimes the government does nasty things to you that you don t deserve since they were so nice to the davidians the first time round i can see why the davidians didn t surrender so easily especially because they were expecting the end of the world andrew diederich diederic spot colorado edu these opinions are only mine when they wave that watch infront of my eyes
talk.politics.guns	re waco clinton press conference part in article blake nevada edu blake nevada edu rawlin blake writes in article apr ringer cs utsa edu whughes lonestar utsa edu william w hughes writes in article feustelc tw p netcom com feustel netcom com david feustel writes i predict that the outcome of the study of what went wrong with the federal assault in waco will result in future assaults of that type being conducted as full scale military operations with explicit shoot to kill directives you mean they aren t already could have fooled me remember waco who will the government decide to murder next maybe you opinions are mine i don t care if you blame the university or the state well it seems we don t learn the lessons of history do we i was hoping that kent state taught us a lesson apparently not apparently the government will murder anyone they choose to still hmm for more recent lesson what about that little square in china another lesson might be the one repeated every year in tibet and of course there s always el salvador and the beat goes on and on messages from god get off your ass don t trust the government at any time for any reason the screaming man connect the god damned dots ministry tv song clinton administration e mail addresses clintonhq campaign org mcimail provided as a public service by compuserve com compuserve jon edward shum jon mitre org clintonpz aol com america online
talk.politics.guns	re raid justification was blast them next time dale access digex com dale farmer writes rick bressler bressler iftccu ca boeing com wrote forgot to leave in his quote source what happened in waco is not the fault of the batf if they would of had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the compound on the initial assault and none of this would of happened the batf is a part of the dept of treasury not justice if they needed to assault a place they could just do like the irs does call in the federal marshalls service the irs doesn t need to rely on the federal marshall s services the irs has its own swat teams i saw a picture of one in an article on the irs in some magazine or other dave feustel n myi feustel netcom com the u s government has become a garrotte around the necks of its citizens just as with a garrotte the more people struggle to breathe the air of freedom the more the government tightens its stranglehold the only possible outcomes at this point are the death of government or the elimination of personal freedom
talk.politics.guns	re bd s did themselves you re all paranoid freaks in a previous article says freed om of religion has absolutely nothing to do with building a small arsenal and grooming year old children to be your wife i ll come out as soon as i finish my manuscript on the seven seals oh ok david interesting that janet reno has publically announced that we need steal ourselves for more wacos i wonder if i can get the gasoline concession i agree that koresh was as much of a victim as a perpetrator this because he grew up inside the cult and engaged in a power struggle where his supporters helped inflate his ego yup kill that bastard this was no move fuck up a helicoptor was thermal imaging the compound ah yes the illegal helicopter searchign for the non existent pcp lab i remember it well even if the media and y all tell me i don t call me winston that afternoon and detected three fires erupting almost simultaneously there were no cs canisters a specially modified abrams was pupming the ahhh yes the non existent canisters call me winston again stuff in no chance of starting a fire there kerosene lamps maybe one but not three fires no way koresh wasn t just talking out of his ass i expected this to happen i did too but for different reasons the fbi has a habit of burning up people in fortified areas maybe they wanted it to look like murder he had days i think this was coming the whole time he didn t even put the children in the buried bus or the underground bunker during the cs seige he put them up into the tower to die fuck all of you big brother paranoid freaks the only good thing to come of any of this is that there will be one less group of crazoids to attract some of the more rootless members of our society yup good dead yeah maybe janet will do some more just like she s promis er warned us about like i told y all before i would seriously consider the following get your passport in order now consider overseas options for your savings
talk.politics.guns	re waco inside story ap was re atf burns in a previous article dhartung chinet chi il us dan hartung says dear dear they could have come out so could the defenders in the alamo you re clearly missing the point here typically i might add if it were me i doubt that i would have come out batf show up start shooting at me etc then they paint me a child molesting murdering fanatic call up tanks hundreds of automatic armed goons restrict press access to two miles away come on if i can watch pictures of burned women and children in bosnia on cnn why am i being limited to a two mile away replay of a fire in waco huh answer me that
talk.politics.guns	re hallam baker bashes tpgers was re welcome to police state usa in article c yypo ei dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes in article apr a cs okstate edu kennejs a cs okstate edu kennedy james scot writes from article c t ia f dscomsa desy de by hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker just what the hell do you base that ludicrous claim on there are plenty of fine decent people people who read post to t p g if any of these people are paranoid it is because of people like you hey dude you are making me paranoid what an argument while i wouldn t be too terribly impressed with anybody who got to be paranoid based on either usenet in general or phill hallam baker s comments in general you d be surprised for most people if you accuse them of something long enough and loud enough to enough people they start to ask why they re bothering to fight it if nothing you do will be considered right why bother to do right it s pretty basic human nature i d have a spot of tea with them you probably gave up on arguing the case for arms control directly long ago because posters who know what they are talking about e g frank crary disproved all your arguments for why more gun control is needed so you gave up because you know they are right and you couldn t refute their answers no frank crary s arguments are based on the assumption that most people are sane normal people tpg disproves this of gun owners what an amazing thing i didn t realize that over a hundred million gun owners all posted to tpg even if all the posts in talk politics guns illustrated what you say they illustrate it would still only reflect the written personas which is often different from face to face of a very very small and select group anybody who seriously generalizes any attitudes or positions on usenet to the general population of any country either doesn t care about accuracy or needs to have a few realities explained to them usenet as a whole disproves it of humanity as a whole speaking of which most of the readership posts i ve seen put the most read newsgroups at about readers a number i have a feeling is fairly inflated the posters rare and regular are themseleves a very tiny minority of that group and the whole of usenet readers are themselves a very distorted sample of humanity if anything the only real thing you can get out of the relative sample of usenet readers is that we ve got too much equipment and too much time available to us we now have proof positive that guns don t make you safer buy a lot of guns and you either get shot in the no knock raid or get the fbi to burn down your house proof that guns don t make you safer is that if you buy one the government will show up and kill you tell me if the government took away the voting rights of everybody who exercised their free speech would that then be proof that free speech squelches political activity you are equating two things with each other that don t see even in the paranoid mindset of tpg there are good reasons to support gun control phill if you really believe that the various posts on computer nets represents either most of the poster s in person personalities or the general public s general opinions then i have some serious reservations about your grasp on reality but don t expect you really do believe that it s simply a convenient way to make your point and hopefully make those people you don t like look bad cuddles n kisses phill have a nice day phill david veal university of tennessee division of continuing education pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed when you pushed me down the elevator shaft sometimes i get to thinking you don t love me anymore weird al yankovic
talk.politics.guns	re clinton wants national id card aka ussr style internal passport in article mimsy umd edu tms cs umd edu tom swiss not swift not suiss swiss writes johnston cyberia win net robert johnston writes how bout we embed the card in the forhead of everyones skull can t lose it without being already dead ergo no need for treatment close at birth we implant a smart chip just behind the ear under the skin but above the skull we incase it in a hypo allergenic high carbon content glass this chip would be reprogrammed as we age with the pertinent medical correctional taxational data behave yourself or we ll input it into your permenant record you forgot the part about encasing it in a small shaped charge so that if anyone tries to tamper with it it explodes and kills you oh and the shaped charge can be set off by remote control but only if you get out of line properly patriotic citizens have nothing to fear at algor s insistance the shaped charge will automatically detonate after thirty years a la logan s run in order to maintain population control john townsend reduce reuse engineering modeling mead data central reuse uunet meaddata johnt springboro pike recycle johnt meaddata com miamisburg oh software
talk.politics.guns	re waco clinton press conference part in article feustelc tw p netcom com feustel netcom com david feustel writes i predict that the outcome of the study of what went wrong with the federal assault in waco will result in future assaults of that type being conducted as full scale military operations with explicit shoot to kill directives and done in secret did anybody notice it is the treasury dept the fbi and batf in other words that clinton wants to do the investigation in other words investigating themselves he sure didn t seem very enthusiastic about congress doing the investigation i notice well they can do what they want probably insert a pout here does anybody smell the attempt for a whitewash betcha the justice dept investigation will at most say possible poor judjement too bad grrr dave feustel n myi feustel netcom com i m beginning to look forward to reaching the allocation of taxes to pay for the interest on the national debt at that point the federal government will be will go out of business for lack of funds pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
talk.politics.guns	civil rights violations i m putting together a list of the civil rights violations perpetrated against the davidians by the fbi batf here is what i ve got so far care to add any or provide more backup info first amendment fbi batf violated davidians right to free exercise of religion from the start we now have a de facto precident against any minority religion fbi batf violated bd right to free speach by a preventing them to speak to media b preventing them from practicing their beliefs fbi batf violated the freedom of the press by a keeping them miles from the davidians b preventing the media to cover the fbi batf actions close up c censoring media reports fbi batf violated the bd s right to peaceable assemble a proven by initial baseless assault second amendment the batf went after them because they had too many guns and guns that the fbi batf didn t approve of nuff said fourth amendment the right of the bd s to be secure in their persons houses papers and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures was violated by a initial baseless assault fifth amendment the davidians were held to answer for a capital or otherwise infamous crime without a presentment or indictment by a grand jury the davidians were deprived of life liberty and property without due process of law sixth amendment the accused were denied the right to a speedy and public trial by an impartial jury when the fbi became judge jury and executioner the bd s were never informed of the specific nature anad cause of the accusation eighth amendment the davidians suffered cruel and unusual punishment when a the fbi cut off the water to the ranch b the fbi used psy war loudspeakers broacasting the screams of dying rabbits and tibetian chants c the fbi prevented family members from contacting their family inside the ranch d the fbi used tear gas against them especially the children e the fbi burned the ranch down f thoes who escaped were imprisoned without bail without a hearing anything i miss pv
talk.politics.guns	re bd s did themselves you re all paranoid freaks in article apr oneb almanac bc ca kmcvay oneb almanac bc ca ken mcvay writes deleted hear hear i d also like to see the autopsy reports confirm news reports that multiple victims were found shot in the head and in positions inconsistent with fire victims it is simply too early to draw conclusions either way about this nasty incident but i tend to believe the government side at least you re consistent i m sure the highly propagandized germans tended to believe their government s version too in the thirties and forties as those different highly demonized jewish cultists met their fate always trust your government the old frog s almanac a salute to that old frog hisse f ryugen fisher v x sco xenix gt ladysmith british columbia canada serving central vancouver island with public access usenet and internet mail home to the holocaust almanac joe gaut in the super state it really does not f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu matter at all what actually happened remember the alamo truth is what the government chooses to remember waco tell you justice is what it wants to happen jim garrison new orleans la
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article ra inncgu clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras writes i tend to agree but i would like a better explanation of why the fbi stopped the firetrucks at the gate i saw this in realtime it concerns me that the fbi appeared to not be too interested in stopping the fire after it started and actually started flying hueys around the compound which had to add in some small part to the winds driving the fire jim i understand fire trucks had been at the site for several weeks but were sent home three or four days before the assault can anyone confirm this joe gaut in the super state it really does not f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu matter at all what actually happened remember the alamo truth is what the government chooses to remember waco tell you justice is what it wants to happen jim garrison new orleans la
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article apr mcs kent edu mhamilto nimitz mcs kent edu the lawnmowerman writes oh then i guess that shooting those kind of babies is all right you sick bastard why thanks for your reply to my post by the way i never never ever said that it was right to shoot those kind of babies let s go to the videotape here s exactly what you posted this is murder atf murderers butchers flame on is this guy serious if he would ever really pay attention to the news oops i forgot that the media for the most part loves to jump right on top of a story before all the facts are known as well as to manipulate what we see and thus what we believe any ways one of koresh s devoted followers that did i repeat did survive this genocidal mass slaughter of innocent people besides there are nine survivors in the burn unit of the local hospital and was reported that david was in one of the towers when the shit hit the fan besides a majority of these children were children that he was supposed to have been the father of this then makes them bastard children to a sacraligious zeloit sp also someone should have told david and his followers that if they can t the heat then they should stay out of the kitchen pun intended so if you weren t saying that the deaths of bastard children of a sacreligious zealot was no big thing and i know i am not the only one who read it that way just what the hell were you saying however it was the branch davidian people in there that insisted on staying there with their savior yeah right budy boy because he had brain washed them into believing that what ever he says is the truth even if means that they are to give up their lives for his cause therefore it is davids fault and not the atf s who gave them to days to get out this was days to many for me and for many of the rest of the u s so who brainwashed you into believing that whatever the government says it the truth or that koresh was any actual threat to you and the rest of the us haven t you ever stopped to wonder why the government raided this farm this raid was not about religion sex or child abuse to the best available evidence at the moment this raid psychological torture and group death was about koresh s failure to pay a tax on one grenade launcher that he may or may not even have had that s why it was the batf doing the raiding in the first place do you think a tax evasion justifies an armed assault by the government with armed men in trailers orchestrated character assassination noise torture and a holocaust i am however sad to hear of the death of any child unlike the sick bastard i supposedly am then think before you post cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re waco clinton press conference part in article apr r node hub org ndallen r node hub org nigel allen writes here is a press release from the white house number one that there was a limit to how long the federal authorities could maintain with their limited resources the quality and intensity of coverage by experts there lucky they brought the situation to a prompt resolution before they had to turn things over to the amateurs they might be needed in other parts of the country god help us all cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re who s next mormons and jews in article apr news cs brandeis edu st pip cc brandeis edu writes y know when the right to bear arms was invented it wasn t invented but was supposed by the writers of the constitution to be a universal pre existing right howsomever all we had to worry about was the shotgun and pistol hmmm you need to spend some time in a library son when the bill of rights was written in addition to the muzzleloading shotgun and pistol you mention we had rifles in calibers ranging from around to caliber and up cannon with various different projectiles to choose from and owned by civilians breech loading rifles in addition semiautomatic and full automatic firearms had been patented and or demonstrated by several people in various places during the preceding century or so now we have to worry about drive bys with uzis sparaying the entire neighborhood with bullets sounds good any refererences to this actually happening or is it just exaggeration for effect following one or more incidents of someone firing a handful of shots from something that may or may not be an uzi semi or full auto just because someting was good once does not mean it will be forever until the root conditions that justified it go away criminal behavior either private or government which should be defended against there s no reason it should go away some things are too important not to give away to everybody else and have none left for yourself dieter the car salesman
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in article cmm thomasp surt ifi uio no thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no writes i don t remember the figures exactly but there were about deaths in texas in that was caused by guns that includes suicides since it has been shown in other countries that suicide rates are pretty much independent of the means available for doing oneself in studies include some done published in japan canada austria norway suicides ought not be included in the count if this is done the number of vehicle related deaths greatly exceeds that of firearms related deaths in texas i should not suffer because of others certainly not we all agree on this one but we also live in a sociaty and therefor we ll have to give up some of our freedom note the why unless it s doing something that directly hurts someone else what s the point otherwise you d better stop operating all motor vehicles since the price of operating them greatly exceeds the cost in lives of firearms one state don t remember which texas tried to impose a rule that you could only buy one gun each month think you all know what happened well it s been done at least twice south north carolina did it a few years back and watched its crime rate relative to the rest of the country rise quite a bit virginia just passed the law no word yet on what the results will be but i d be willing ot bet that a reduction in crime rates won t be one of them i respect the right to defend yourself but that right should not inflict on other people self defense doesn t inflict on other people except perhaps the criminal who s tried to do you damage and maybe indirectly on future potential victims who might not become victims some things are too important not to give away to everybody else and have none left for yourself dieter the car salesman
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article c tki c s rice edu fontenot ravl rice edu dwayne jacques fontenot writes too bad nothing will happen to her or him the fbi and the media have done their job well just want to make a comment on this if you live in this country long enough you should realize the media is no friend of the govt i am only concerned about fact that the media like to jump to conclusion before the facts but i am sure they are good in digging dirt as well afterall they like the controversial events which of course make news chuan chuan infamous lee email chuan stein u washington edu u of washington seattle
talk.politics.guns	re waco aflame abolish cults start with the f b i
talk.politics.guns	re waco clinton press conference part in apr ringer cs utsa edu whughes lonestar utsa edu william w hughes writes in article feustelc tw p netcom com feustel netcom com david feustel writes i predict that the outcome of the study of what went wrong with the federal assault in waco will result in future assaults of that type being conducted as full scale military operations with explicit shoot to kill directives you mean they aren t already could have fooled me only because you are apparently easy to fool in other words your remark is obviously from someone who wouldn t know the difference insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
talk.politics.guns	atf not enought to do the best reason to abolishing the atf is that they don t have enough to do if the organization were disbanded and its duties assigned to the fbi firearms and irs tobacco and alcohol both of these organizations have enough to do the fbi is probably not going to try to get a criminal charge of illegal machine gun for having a broken gun there have been postings stating that law enforcement should be divided and and weak but there is nothing more dangerous to liberties than a law enforcement agency without enough criminals to chase the atf is one and look at the trouble it started in waco rod anderson n nzo i do not think the united states government boulder co is responsible for the fact that a bunch of rcanders nyx cs du edu fanatics decided to kill themselves satellite n nzo on ao slick willie the compassionate
talk.politics.guns	re fbi director s statement on waco standoff on apr gmt tim smith tzs stein u washington edu wrote feustel netcom com david feustel writes we have no evidence that batf fbi would not have started shooting when and if people had started coming out of the burning building oh how about the press if the batf fbi were going to shoot people leaving a burning building don t you think they would get rid of the press first oh you mean something like moving the press back to a single location miles away from the compound the press was allowing into foxholes in vietnam but it s too dangerous to allow them near the branch davidians there s something skewed about the logic here charles scripter cescript phy mtu edu dept of physics michigan tech houghton mi when all government in little as in great things shall be drawn to washington as the centre of all power it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated thomas jefferson
talk.politics.guns	re feds caught in another lie pete norton peten well sf ca us peten holonet net norton hou amoco com
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article mgb slacvm slac stanford edu mgb slacvm slac stanford edu writes from a p according to numerous accounts by those in the compound the fire was started by an armoured vehicle crushing a large propane tank and turning over numerous gas lanterns medical examiners have found no bullet wounds as was stated by the fbi on the corpses i find it tremendously chilling that so many people seem willing to accept the governments story despite much evidence to the contrary but then again that is how mr clinton was elected by people who believe that his campaign promisses would be respected by him once he got into office if people will believe that of any politican it is little wonder they will believe all of the factoids being given out as fact by the clinton reno fbi batf confederation cnn reported tonight that some bodies were found with bullet holes in their heads however i have no information on the possible causes this is not to say that government stories are to be taken at the face value in this case but to jump to conclusion at this stage may be the source of embarrassment in the future let s be paranoic this may be a ploy to smoke out the opposition and decredit them comparison of this incidence to tienanmen square is made in soc culture china just in case you need more ammunition to shoot at each other no matter which side you are on this waco issue are you ready to die defending your cause peace be with you pete
talk.politics.guns	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened in article c t m ku acsu buffalo edu v qheg ubvmsb cc buffalo edu p vasilion writes well this is still the land of the free for the time being individuals are supposed be able to do what they please unless it infringes upon the rights of someone else owning fully automatic machine guns is also permitted by law if you have a class iii federal firearms license and have paid the transfer tax if you are refering to the cal the feds claim the bd to have had i have used cal for yard target shooting it a legitimate and challenging sport i m getting tired of these wimpy liberals whining about gun control too ya know the second amendment says a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed now notice it says arms not guns arms the comsymp zog wants you to think that it is the only legitimate possessor of nuclear weapons unconstitutional you and i have just as much right to a kilogram or two of nice weapons grade plutonium as any cruddy little pointy headed liberal los alamos pinkos support your right to keep and bear short range nuclear weapons it s a legitimate and challenging sport and screw the limit spl steve lamont sciviguy spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource uc san diego la jolla ca my other car is a car too bumper strip seen on i
talk.politics.guns	denver post yanks assault ads the denver post supposed voice of the supposed rocky mountain empire ran the following in the firearms supplies classified heading on friday april if you have an opinion about their new found wisdom i am told that the person to speak with is one mr walters notice the denver post will no longer knowingly accept any advertise ment to buy or sell assault weap ons the denver post finds that the use of assault weapons poses a threat to the health safety and security of its readers let em know what you think dan spooksmoke revolution assasination thorium cobalt clintin cia nsa shc dod loki acca nmsu edu liberty or death taylordf ucsu colorado edu send me something even you can t read
talk.politics.guns	re fbi director s statement on waco standoff after seeing william sessions on television explaining the great lengths to which the fbi went to determine the suicidal tendancies of david koresh i got the very unpleasent feeling that koresh had manipulated the fbi s perceptions much the way he manipulated his own followers maybe i was manipulated by the news story david mcgaughey texas tech university
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article r ef transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes do you think a tax evasion justifies an armed assault by the government with armed men in trailers orchestrated character assassination noise torture and a holocaust i doubt if koresh had let the batf have a look inside his place as they intended to do orchestrated character assassination noise torture and a holocaust would never have come to pass the bd s killed members of the batf on the first day orchestrated character assassination and noise torture seem like a small retribution the use of tanks is quesionable however abhijit bhattacharya abhijit georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt b internet gt b prism gatech edu
talk.politics.guns	re change of name in article cmm thomasp surt ifi uio no thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no writes i m not trying to censor this or any newsgroup i m just trying to give some hints about other newsgroups doesn t this belong to alt conspiracy drop three billiard balls on a ramp and they all roll in the same direction pour some blood into the sea and sharks will converge from miles around throw a pebble at one starling and all will depart natural processes can mimic the outward results of conspiracy when no actual conspiracy is required put a government functionary in an embarrassing situation and he quickly covers his ass this too is completely natural about waco it looks to me as the batf and fbi can t handle situations like this it looks that way to me too but you have to understand that it s not the first time they have instigated raids like these the most recent one also ended up in a long standoff but it wasn t quite as public as this one and they didn t kill quite as many people maybe this screwup will make them think long and hard about raiding any more residences in this manner but probably not the way it went reminds me of stun bomb beeing dropped on a house in la from a helicopter whole block went up in flames died i assume you re talking about philadelphia it doesn t have to be a conspiracy maybe they just screwed up if you re a fan of conspiracies the time to make that batch of popcorn is after the screwup when it s time for the coverup cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re news says batf indictment warrant unsealed in article apr husc harvard edu kim scws harvard edu john kim writes other news sniper injures outside mca buildling in l a man arrested suspect was disgruntled employee of universal studios which is a division of m c a shooting those cal blanks i suspect them movie guys is dangerous question what will californians do with all those guns after the reginald denny trial practice with them i hope cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption for those who didn t figure it out the below message was a reply to another in sci crypt for which the poster put t p g in the followup to line i didn t notice that apologies to those who were confused the substance makes little sense unless one reads the prior messages however i don t wish to enter into this discussion here as it will be yet another rehearsal of a long tired set of arguments suffice it to say that i disagree both with the interpretation of well regulated in the second amendment offered by gun lovers and what i think to be their distortion of the same phrase in the associated federalist papers my webster and my reading of the language convinces me that the word meant both under control and disciplined and not of good marksmanship i think the latter a special interest pleading no one has yet shown a contemporateous reference in which well regulated unambiguously meant of good marksmanship and not under control disciplined etc thus i continue to believe the second amendment is a militia clause and not an arming everyone clause others are welcome to disagree as i know many do and little would be served by rehashing this topic in this particular forum to avoid flames or unproductive rehashings i note that i ve come in here to post this one message just to clarify the one below i m now outta here again though i m available via e mail david in article strnlghtc tr d n n netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes though i agree this is not the place to discuss guns i note in passing that a number of gun apologists seem to have ignored the words well regulated in their distorted interpretations of the second amendment david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
talk.politics.guns	need info on waco machineguns a really sad op ed appeared in my school s newpaper today it claimed that full auto weapons are illegal in the u s i understand that full auto weapons made and registered before may are still legal in of the states is texas one of those states can anyone point me to a source for info on how many people have been killed by legal full auto weapons in the u s and finally i think it would be great if anyone was keeping a digest of facts on the waco incident in particular i would like a source for the fbi batf mentioning the supposed methamphetamine lab and information on the beginning of the raid specifically batf lies i am also interested in past batf no knock warrents which have lead to personal and property damage against innocent citizens i intend to put together a reply to this op ed very soon the author of the piece states he wants to work for the batf gack thomas
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article r j k da menudo uh edu hadcrjam admin uh edu miller jimmy a writes as someone else has pointed out why would the stove be in use on a warm day in texas do you eat all your food cold minor quibble the assualt and it was one began near dawn the fire did not break out for several hours i find it highly unlikely that the bd would be cooking lunch while armored vehicles punch holes in their house and are pumping in tear gas look i don t want to bore everybody here with the physics of woodstoves but they re not anything like your caloric gas range it takes about three hours for a woodstove to get hot enough to cook on and afterwards you can t just shut it off it will contain hot embers for over hours even after you choke it completely so it ain t exactly light up the stove and cook me a batch of them pancakes aunt j if you use a woodstove for cooking or even for heating your house at night you will have it lit to some extent all the time trust me on this one i speak from experience cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re hr a gun law i can live with in article apr dg rtp dg com meyers leonardo rtp dg com bill meyers me writes a bill to establish the right to obtain firearms for security and to use firearms in defense of self family or home and to provide for the enforcement of such right in response to which in article qkeo drg eagle natinst com chrisb natinst com chris bartz writes so you have the right unless the federal government says you don t i don t think i like this very much and in article qkshq l transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes maybe i m too religious but when i see a bill to establish a right i wince keep in mind what the law giveth the law can taketh away and in article ql aiinn c gap caltech edu arc cco caltech edu aaron ray clement s writes right mentioned in the bill is already established under the second amendment the bill should be reworded to reaffirm the second amendment hey guys you re absolutely correct and well on the way to winning this battle and losing the war yes there are serious philosophical flaws in hr technical ones too how d you like to sue the feds lose and have to pay their reasonable attorney s fee still i have one basic question compared to what we ve got is hr a better or b worse this one shouldn t even take you three guesses if there s a good enough show of support for hr maybe for a change we could be the ones saying it s a reasonable first step the nd amendment is about sovereignty not duck hunting
talk.politics.guns	re cnn for sale count me in for allan lockridge my opinions are my own and are not for sale allan lockridge allanl
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article r j k da menudo uh edu hadcrjam admin uh edu miller jimmy a writes minor quibble the assualt and it was one began near dawn the fire did not break out for several hours minor quibble back at you i am in the same general area as the koresh compound and i can tell you that the air was quite chilly that morning especially with the high winds that were blowing of course the swiss cheese walls made it even worse
talk.politics.guns	re cost benefit analysis was fbi director s statement in article mgb slacvm slac stanford edu mgb slacvm slac stanford edu writes has anyone noticed or commented on the fact that so many of those who were willing nay demanding that we wait forever for mr hussein and iraq that we use tremendously costly sanctions to avoid a loss of life are now at the fore front of those clammoring that we should have smashed those religious radicals and we were wasting money allowing this stand off to go on no i see many of the same groups protesting both i also know people who feel exactly the opposite i e treat citizens better than saddam how the worm turns when the sect changes hey sect changes are still illegal in texas cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re janet reno on nightline it s worse than you show it look for janet reno and others to link the words child abuse and p rivate stores of guns from now on out bb cleveland freenet edu chris crobaugh v those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety b franklin
talk.politics.guns	re riddle me this in article r die t transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article apr jupiter sun csd unb ca j jupiter sun csd unb ca fuller m writes yet the fbi mouthpiece at this afternoon s press conference characterized the quantity of cs gas pumped into the building as massive and speculated that after a few hours of exposure any davidian gas masks would become useless does this sound not harmful to you hm a previous poster argued that the fact that the bd s did not rush to escape the burning building indicated that it was they and not any of the government actions that started the fire on the other hand i wonder if with a face full of massive amounts of cs i would be able to escape a burning tinder box like that ranch house assuming my best efforts imagine you have been under seige for almost two months by an enemy which you believe wants to kill you suddenly they pump tear gas into your building and punch holes in it with tanks then a fire breaks out do you run outside to be slaughtered or stay and face your fate check ethiopia vs italy in wwii for some answers to that question dillon pyron the opinions expressed are those of the ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated when i m here when i m home texans vote no on robin hood we need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions not gestures padi dm
talk.politics.guns	re waco fire in c ed cd cpqhou se hou compaq com thomasr cpqhou se hou compaq com sez the houston chronicle last thursday maybe wednesday said that the interior of walls had been covered with hay bales to help protect against bullets many of you know how fast dry hay burns this is all terribly interesting but it doesn t belong in misc legal take it elsewhere please have you hugged your common nucleus of operative fact today mark eckenwiler eck panix com cmcl panix eck
talk.politics.guns	two found shot inside compound today the texas me found two people a man and a woman shot in the head inside the burned compound but these were not the people that the fbi described a few days before the fbi said that the person found in front of the compound had been shot and several children were also the two people found today were on top of the main inside concrete bunker that provided the most protection during the fire so the comment that children were shot is still not proved defend your nd amendment rights nra aclu vfw fred brooks portland oregon
talk.politics.guns	more on stupid media i just heard on cnn that the texas rangers found an m machine gun in the bd compound rubble the newscaster called this a new hi tech military weapon ha ha i would bet that it is that rock armory m semi auto or that it was leagally owned and the tax was paid what year was the m patented just showing you how the media is twisting the facts josh
talk.politics.guns	who do i write to now okay i have my copies of all relevant gun control bills i m mad as hell i want to get involved i want to join the battle to protect our second amendment rights who do i write who should i concentrate on writing my comments to the actual author of the bill the supporters of the bill my congressman my senator newspapers magazines all of the above i don t believe that i will change the world but at least i am going to throw a few punches can any of you offer any advice or suggestions to me as i now begin to get involved here thanks for replying directly to me via e mail pnesbitt mcimail com
talk.politics.guns	re waco fire eck panix com mark eckenwiler writes in c ed cd cpqhou se hou compaq com thomasr cpqhou se hou compaq com sez the houston chronicle last thursday maybe wednesday said that the interior of walls had been covered with hay bales to help protect against bullets many of you know how fast dry hay burns this is all terribly interesting but it doesn t belong in misc legal take it elsewhere please but of course it does it s certainly a legal matter if it s not a legal matter that interest you you may simply put it in your kill file seeeeee ya turmoil halcyon com fuck the police
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in article cmm thomasp surt ifi uio no thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no writes i m not saying you should ban guns or that you should take them away from responsible owners but this is all gun control laws end up doing politicians can never manage to get a handle on those who obtain arms illegally so all their laws can ever do is further restrict people who obtain them legally karen mcnutt a local attorney states that there are about two million licensed gun owners in massachusetts in the past year the number of licensed gun owners involved in gun crimes was something like six yet there were a large number of gun crimes in the state last year does passing laws that will further restricting only those people already obeying laws pay any dividents all i m saing is that guns should be treated with respect from owners sellers and legislators so far i ve seen them treated with the least respect by legislators i believe guns are a problem in many countries and that crime rates would fell if they were more restricted see this is what i call the argument from religion i believe don t believe it s not necessary to take this on faith go look at the history of countries that passed gun restrictions pay particular attention to whether or not violent crime was higher before the restrictions and lower after don t look at violent gun crimes that s begging the question you may be very surprised if all crimes done with guns stopped and all accidents also stopped or was reduced to a minimum then i would consider lifting all gun control you have this absolutely backwards if crime stopped in the presence of strict gun control there is no way i would consider lifting any of it however if gun control made absolutely no improvement in the violent crime rate that s when i would have it lifted think about it so far none of the stats show any improvement likevise if car accidents fell to a minimum in europe i and probably most people i know would demand easier drivers tests ca hours and more than today do you really think driver s tests are any indication of your propensity for having accidents i ve never known anybody stupid enough to take a driving test while drunk after having been up all night with two fighting kids in the back seat with a hot cup of coffee on their lap or while putting on makeup reading the newspaper or talking on their cellular phone but that s what they re doing when they have those accidents in other words we should have legislation because it s neccacery how can anything that has no positive effect at all ever be necessary the one gun month case in virginia i was thinking about the reactions on the proposal loud screeming about civil rights and amendment and it didn t help any of it winnie the poh do you want peace or weapons winnie yes please i m sorry i don t remember any story where winnie the pooh was offered weapons cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption from article strnlghtc tr d n n netcom com by strnlght netcom com david sternlight though i agree this is not the place to discuss guns i note in passing that a number of gun apologists seem to have ignored the words well regulated in their distorted interpretations of the second amendment well regulated at the time of its writing and in the context of the second amendment means properly trained and equipped it modern language it would read a properly trained and equipped militia being necessary to the security of a free state note the word free it doesn t say police the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed bruce
talk.politics.guns	re waco headlines and editorial in boston globe john kim kim scws harvard edu writes boston globe wednesday april little in the way of rationality could be expected from koresh a self confessed sinner without equal funny if koresh did say that he was quoting st paul of course the early christians were persecuted too if koresh is a loony because he quotes the bible how long is it before mainstream christians become the target of the fbi s loving care and attention jason get off the cross we need the wood steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu
talk.politics.guns	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened in a previous article spl pitstop ucsd edu steve lamont says in article c t m ku acsu buffalo edu v qheg ubvmsb cc buffalo edu p vasilion writes now notice it says arms not guns arms the comsymp zog wants you to think that it is the only legitimate possessor of nuclear weapons unconstitutional you and i have just as much right to a kilogram or two of nice weapons grade plutonium as any cruddy little pointy headed liberal los alamos pinkos support your right to keep and bear short range nuclear weapons it s a legitimate and challenging sport good another liberal converted by waco if dave had had something realistic there would have been none of this bradley vehicle crap somebody in talk politics guns was offering free nra memberships hurry up
talk.politics.guns	re rewording the second amendment ideas in article apr ousrvr oulu fi dfo vttoulu tko vtt fi foxvog douglas writes in article viking ponderous cc iastate edu viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes i ll give you a little hint see that manure pile in the farmer s field down the road in the usa that is a weapon of mass destruction nope it is not considered a weapon ironic since it s pretty much what was used to blow up the world trade center cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re waco burning in article c v a oo dscomsa desy de hallam zeus desy de writes snip has anyone in u s heard anything similar or are u s government spin doctors censoring such information the b b c news is also reporting that about of those that died were british citizens the b b c are also reporting that bodies of b d members were found with bullet wounds in a manner that suggests they may have been shot attempting to leave the compound during the fire there is a possibility that these are the bodies of people killed during the initial shootout phill hallam baker can you imagine what happens when a magazine explodes bullets go flying every where imho these gunshot wounds were actually caused when the magazines went up a texas ranger does not a pathologist make so i ll wait for an autopsy to determine if they were shot first either way they re all dead and the fbi atty gen vampria are still responable
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch update on apr yodicet gtewd mtv gtegsc com said ah yes i see a few liberal weenies have come out of the woodwork to defend the burning of the children probably drooled all over themselves while watching the tv coverage probably had a few like that in nazi germany as well oh yeah atf fbi now claims according the the media that there are a few survivors the number seems to vary minute by minute yodicet yodicet yodicet hmm you don t say l yeh buddy larry psl nmsu edu larry cunningham i ve got your computer physical science laboratory o right here new mexico state university computer this las cruces new mexico usa disclaimer opinions expressed here are correct mine and not psls or nmsus oh sure we could do it the easy way but it just wouldn t be the cowboy way
talk.politics.guns	nra commercial just saw a new commercial by the nra it starts out with a bunch of politicians talking about how to get rid of crime they finally realize that they need to put criminals away longer but there isn t enough jail space so they decide on another gun law during this whole seen there quoteing various statistics on how easy criminals get off in the next seen the politician is announceing on tv how this gun law will get rid of crime and there is this grungy looking guy criminal watching him on tv just laughing his ass off classic sean
talk.politics.guns	re what to do if you shoot somebody in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes i have heard many opinions on this subject and would like to hear more from the people on the net say you re in a situation where you have to pull a gun on somebody you give them a chance to get away but they decided to continue in their action anyway and you end up shooting and killing them my question is what do you do should you stay and wait for the cops or should you collect your brass if you re using a semi auto and get out of there provided of course you don t think that you have been seen what kind of laws are on the books regarding this type of situation what would be the most likely thing to happen to you if you stayed and waited and it was a first offense what would happen if you took off but someone saw you and you were caught anyone jason u uicvm cc uic edu if in said situation i would reviewing other cases i ve seen reported on in the articles i ve read etc suggest the safest legal course of action is as follows warn your assailant loudly and in clear tones that you have a weapon yes even though it s blatantly obvious now that you have it out and that you will shoot him if he advances does not cease whatever hostile action he is currently involved in ie drop the knife or i ll shoot repeat this process three times if you can not if he s pointing a freaking gun at you himself that s kinda impractical there are variables here and i will try to address them in turn after said warning considering it s ignored aim center mass and fire until he drops this is not sadism it s practicality if he hasn t gone down he s still a threat why i support if he turns and runs do not pursue or fire at his back shot s fired in anger will burn you later though in some cases the i can see where that might not bother me all that much if you do drop him remain where you are have a bystander or witness or create one by yelling at the top of your lungs call the police and wait reholster your weapon visibly or place it on the ground nearby do not attempt to recollect your brass the police will use it s location to piece together the scene along with your testimony and that of any witnesses mentally mark witnesses if the police say that none came forward let them know who you saw attempt to keep your weapon loaded with the minimum required how the hell can i phrase this try to avoid special purpose ammunition hollow points and hydrashock rounds give the opposing lawyer the type of loaded phrasing he will need to sawy the jury that you fully intended to kill someone the only special purpose rounds that i can think of that would actually help your case as it has in several is the glaser safety slug oh what a lovely name safety slug the stated purpose and stated design parameters of the round are life savers in court ie attempting to create a bullet which will not overpenetrate not ricochette and which is designed to stop not kill gee to bad the two often cross damn i m real sorry that rapist is dead not an assailant with one shot this again can be a real life saver in a hostile court be as cooperative with the police as possible show them where you were repeat your information as often as requested they will often ask you the same questions over and over to verify facts and unfortunately to see if your lying fill out all statements and show all required identification and weapon permits booo down with registered citizens register your politicians as deadly tax weapons needing to be confiscated if they are required in your state contact a lawyer immediately if they decide to hold you or that further questioning is needed if you cannot afford one contact the nra they have a legal assistance fund or at least they used to i do hope your a member not my business either way though if i was vague on anything or i left some questions unanswered you can e mail me or post here preferebly e mail i don t have a load of time to review the news kane a truely representative government need never fear it s armed citizens disband the batf bankrupt ted turner and hci i will give up my gun when they pry it out of my cold dead hand death to tyrants this space for rent kane djh rigel tamu edu
talk.politics.guns	re larry king interview with koresh s lawyer from alt law enforcement in article apr msus msus edu hayden krypton mankato msus edu robert a hayden writes i only caught about the last minutes of this show i hope to see it when it repeats later but did manage to catch the summary according to koresh s lawyer and some other guy who i am not sure who he is the davidians did not start the fire and apparently made several attempts at escaping but were blocked by smoke fire and fbi tanks he states this after interviews with thoses davidians that escaped they indicated that their was no suicide pact and that the fire was set by the fbi i got that impression not sure about that something about this whole mess just doesn t smell right it didn t feb th and is doesn t now robert hayden black holes result from god dividing the universe by zero hayden krypton mankato msus edu aq slc ins cwru edu include std disclaimer h cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re change of name post all you want foreigner we d rather hear from you than those i ll support the fascist who writes the hecks for my salary edu site types should you expect the police to come in and assault you lay siege and refuse to help when they yes let s give them the benefit of the doubt accidently burn down your ranch home even though ey have emergency vehicles nearby is this a proper response when you just keep to yourself even if you don t hurt anyone and you re cooperative with cops when you occasionally come out i hope not watkins earth eecs uic edu
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article hydra gatech edu gt b prism gatech edu bhattacharya abhijit writes in article r ef transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes do you think a tax evasion justifies an armed assault by the government with armed men in trailers orchestrated character assassination noise torture and a holocaust i doubt if koresh had let the batf have a look inside his place as they intended to do orchestrated character assassination noise torture and a holocaust would never have come to pass the bd s killed members of the batf on the first day orchestrated character assassination and noise torture seem like a small retribution does the phrase innocent until proven guilty have any meaning anymore the use of tanks is quesionable however abhijit bhattacharya abhijit georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt b internet gt b prism gatech edu jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors speaking of the sick bastard i noticed he attends kent state university i guess we have come full circle here someone from kent favoring excessive force by the govenment to subdue polically incorrect thinking jim shirreffs i speak for myself and only myself
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors do you think a tax evasion justifies an armed assault by the government with armed men in trailers orchestrated character assassination noise torture and a holocaust shit i m going to be a lot more carefull filling by income tax jim shirreffs
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors let s discuss reno s taking full responciblity is everyone happy with the outcome did the fbi pursue the correct course of action was justice done if reno really meant what she said she would resign she is just grand standing period what did those people do wrong in the first place that is what i can t figure out sure they were crazy no dought about it but what did they do wrong someone please help me out on this jim shirreffs i speak for myself and only myself
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors if the fbi started the fire why didn t people flee the burning building james dusek james it could be that they were determined to stay together in the compound no matter what happened perhaps the fire was accidental and the db simply refused to leave the compod perhap they died fighting the fire who knows we will have to wait and see i persaonlly find it hard to believe that they would all agree to burn themselves up what a horrible way to go jim shirreffs
talk.politics.guns	waco suicide those of us who questioned the mass suicide line may still have wondered if it wasn t suicide why did so few get out the answer is now available the gas the government had been pouring in on them is so disabling that its use in wartime is banned by the chemical weapons treaty the u s had agreed not to use this gas against enemy soldiers in wartime but used it in peacetime against civilians including nnocent children for confirmation see friday s clinton am press briefing by george stephanopoulous posted in alt news media and other locations when questioned about it his reply was that the treaty did not forbid its internal use by law enforcement agencies this posting from stephen f austin state university s anonymous account please report abuses to newsmgr ccsvax sfasu edu
talk.politics.guns	re waco fire dhartung chinet chi il us dan hartung writes of course true or no this is a clever attempt to make them seem harmless folk minding their own business nice touch using the word seem dave feustel n myi feustel netcom com the u s government has become a garrotte around the necks of its citizens just as with a garrotte the more people struggle to breathe the air of freedom the more the government tightens its stranglehold the only possible outcomes at this point are the death of government or the elimination of personal freedom
talk.politics.guns	re waco burning in article r r inn v clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras writes in article c uyg q acsu buffalo edu v qheg ubvmsb cc buffalo edu p vasilion writes in article c v a oo dscomsa desy de hallam zeus desy de writes snip has anyone in u s heard anything similar or are u s government spin doctors censoring such information the b b c news is also reporting that about of those that died were british citizens the b b c are also reporting that bodies of b d members were found with bullet wounds in a manner that suggests they may have been shot attempting to leave the compound during the fire there is a possibility that these are the bodies of people killed during the initial shootout phill hallam baker can you imagine what happens when a magazine explodes bullets go flying every where imho these gunshot wounds were actually caused when the magazines went up a texas ranger does not a pathologist make so i ll wait for an autopsy to determine if they were shot first i would doubt bullets would go flying there is no particular force to make the bullet leave the scene of a cartridge going off outside of a barrel the brass shell would burst too soon to give the bullet any real velocity i wouldn t want to be near it but i do not think bullet wounds would result shrapnel wounds would be more likely at least this is my understanding not necessarily if the body had been denatured cooked or dehydrated due to the heat a projectile needs only a minimal kinetic force to penetrate in fire aftermaths bodies tend to fall apart or loose large chunks of meat with little effort medical examiners tend not to like cleaning up such scenes as such if the body had been suitably cooked a bullet comming from a magazine explosion would more than likely have enough force to enter and thus it would be difficult to determine whether a bullet entered at the time of death or much later unless you were trained to look for the evidence texas rangers are not pathologists either way they re all dead and the fbi atty gen vampria are still responsable yep at least in large part jmd handheld com p vasilion
talk.politics.guns	the lies of texas l neil smith posted for l neil smith by cathy smith the lies of texas okay what have we learned for reasons still being kept secret a federal agency already known well enough to be examined and rebuked by several legislative committees over the years for a longstanding violent disregard of the law invades the home of a man whose religious beliefs and personal habits they abominate violating his rights under the first second fourth fifth ninth and fourteenth amendments to the constitution the man and his followers fight back killing four of the outlaw agency s minions wounding many more and suffering their own losses in the process the agency responds by cutting off his electricity water and especially his contact with the outside world they are then free to say anything at all about him in pronouncements that contradict one another daily as the agency finds itself locked in a bitter power struggle with another outfit eager to gain credit for straightening out the mess and more importantly to script his side of the subsequent negotiations any way they please the impasse lasts almost two months ironically at the same time four l a cops are being given a second trial for brutalizing a single individual sparking one of the ugliest riots in history armored vehicles surround the house already ringed with snipers using scoped high powered rifles loudspeakers playing obnoxious records at the highest possible volume and searchlights deprive those in the house of sleep in the aftermath nobody in authority will mention the effect this technique originated by north korean communists as a battle tactic may have had on their judgment finally another irony on the th anniversary of the rising of the warsaw ghetto some of the armor punches holes in the house and gas of some kind is injected the house bursts into flame and is reduced to ashes in less than an hour at least lives including those of more than a dozen children are snuffed out spokesmen for the outlaw agencies the attorney general and the president all hold press conferences to articulate a common theme blame the victim he had illegal weapons as soon as they can be prepared in a secret government workshop and planted among the cinders being examined by the agency that created them he was abusing children the tapes will be stored with the data on the jfk assassination he set the fire our snipers saw him doing it film at in a d he shot his followers who tried to escape or was that jim jones best of all he s dead he can t say a damn thing to embarrass us any more than when his contact with the world was severed at the start of the whole travesty a leading national paper claims of the american people believe that a man who resisted a savage attack on his home is somehow responsible for everything that resulted but when did you ever know of americans to agree on anything doesn t this sound more like the outcome of a soviet election than an opinion poll very well what can we infer from the above for starters never forget that although democratic careers are on the line and rightfully so over this fiasco by the outlaw agency s admission it was planned and rehearsed by a republican administration which may explain why paul harvey who evidently used up all his courage and integrity changing his mind at about the same time i did about the war in viet nam has been acting as little more than a mouthpiece for a state that has no regard for the bill of rights more importantly when rush limbaugh who s been a quivering tower of jello during the whole thing takes essentially the same stance as bill clinton it s time for fundamental changes if not in the system then at least within yourself on march back at the beginning mary gingell national chair of the libertarian party issued a press release condemning the outlaw agency and calling for its abolition in fact the lp has promised in its platform since for at least years to abolish both agencies involved in waco i m proud to say i was there and helped to write that plank true the lp is tiny and insignificant although less so than in ask the democrats in georgia if you doubt it but alone in a howling wilderness of fascists scrambling now to cover their behinds with phony polls and big lies the lp is right about what happened in waco and if their advice had been followed in waco never would have happened think about it and think about the fact that if you ve had enough of political parties more interested in collecting and holding power at whatever cost to the bill of rights let alone human life than in defending and expanding individual liberty maybe the change it s time for within yourself is to make the lp less tiny and insignificant by a single voice and a single vote think about it l neil smith author the probability broach the crystal empire henry martyn and forthcoming pallas editor lever action bbs fidonet libertarian second amendment caucus nra life member my opinions are of course my own
talk.politics.guns	no surrender lenda jackson no surrender delivered by lenda jackson at the rkba rally in denver april it is a fact of modern life that urban residents particularly women feel threatened a certain number of them actually are threatened there are immediate threats the things that women will tell you they re afraid of the noise downstairs at night the lonely walk to the car the stranger at the door the abusive husband finally kicked out of the house as he threatens to hurt her and their children the burglar the mugger the rapist and what are we told is the solution move get a dog keep the door locked call the police as a next to last resort learn martial arts and always there s the implied question what s a pretty little thing like you doing without a husband around to protect you but what if you don t like dogs like living alone don t have years to devote learning judo what if after examining the facts a woman learns that rape victims using armed resistance were less likely to have the rape completed and were less likely to be injured kleck than those using any other form of resistance kleck also true for robbery assault kleck what if to our horror and despair we find that citizens cannot depend on the police for effective protection they usually respond after a crime has been committed in truth the supreme court has held that the police are not responsible for protecting any individual only the whole community as a society are we going to ask women once again to sacrifice themselves are we going to continue to deny women the ability to help themselves here s a thought neil smith in his book the probability broach says no pound thug can threaten the well being or dignity of a pound woman who has two pounds of iron to even things out but if a woman decides to protect herself with the easiest most efficient means possible people especially other women are horrified eughh how could you i d be terrified they ask how could you hurt someone they ll repeat the lie it ll just get taken away from you in truth of defensive gun uses result in the offender taking the gun away from the victim kleck well despite the lies and the social pressure some of us have already made that hard choice we ve decided that we are not going to be victimized by the muggers burglars or rapists we re buying more guns than every before we re learning how to use them and teaching others women and men how to use them most importantly we are preparing ourselves mentally to use our firearms for our own defense we re taking our own security literally into our own hands we re going to stop begging and pleading and marching and what we intend is to really take back the night but there s another threat more insatiable than any mugger more secretive than any burglar more soul destroying than any rapist that menace is government and it threatens us all we know that governments throughout time have suppressed rights and oppressed people it s the way they survive in our names and with our money it interferes with innocent people both at home and abroad it lies to us cheats us steals from us and threatens us with violence no one knows exactly what it ll do next what freedom we will lose because some government goon decides it s for your own safety or we know best any person who acted like government does would be psychoanalyzed within an inch of his life and locked up as a habitual offender but this monster called government persists and grows and we who should be its masters have become its unwilling slaves do you doubt me then why did you file your income tax like any reasonable person i believe that being afraid of something that can hurt you is smart and that paranoia isn t crazy if someone s really after you and make no mistake they re after you and they re after me their names are familiar brady and reynolds groff metzenbahm moynihan and clinton if we re lucky they ll settle for our assault rifles our shotguns our handguns and our ammunition as citizens we have only two choices they are the same two choices given to women to surrender or to fight surrender leads to the gulag to the genocide of pol pot to the disappearances to dachau i do not intend to surrender a battle can be philosophical or political in the main the people keep the government honest by threatening to vote it out of office but if they have to they will keep in mind the words of thomas jefferson the tree of liberty must be well watered with the blood of patriots as a patriot i will point out the error in the government s ways i will do my best to vote the villains out of office i will protest and write and speak and teach our children justice honor and truth and always remember that rebellion can lead to bunker hill and saratoga or it can lead to tiananmen square when the time comes to stand up if i have to give my life to keep them from going too far if there is a tiananmen square in our future i intend to be there and no matter what lies they tell and no matter what laws they pass i intend to meet them with something more substantial in my hand than a brick my opinions are of course my own
talk.politics.guns	re the truth starts to come out would someone please post the generic addresses for congress and senate so that we can all write letters us house of representatives washington dc us senate washington dc
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch update in article c uhuo awq usenet ucs indiana edu wwarf silver ucs indiana edu wayne j warf writes in article nate psygate psych indiana edu nate psygate psych indiana edu nathan engle writes yeah as information trickles in funny how that works funny yeah funny how you didn t wait for the fbi spokesdroid latest reversal of facts before proclaiming the bd s burned themselves to death if you won t believe anything the government says and the press is not reliable according to the same logic then what do you base your statements on wild speculation laced with a healthy dose of paranoia personal opinions why brent irvine yes what did you think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu they were
talk.politics.guns	dealing with cults a few thoughts in the wake of the waco denouement i had email discussions with people from this group in particular we discussed how cults operate why the fbi might be motivated to black out news or behave the way it did and what kinds of problems are involved in dealing with cults and similar organizations i include an edited account of what i wrote the identity of my correspondents have i hope been erased the editing process makes the text choppy sorry about that i ve tried to retain the information content ellipses indicate where text was removed a few of the comments in parentheses are new intended to make it easier for outsiders to understand these notes are preliminary feel free to criticize cheers oded begin included text i took a course called the madness of crowds the course included cults and briefly mentioned analyzed jonestown did some external reading too william adorno edited a series of books on the psychology of evil mass movements starting with the authoritarian personality university of chicago press an attempt to figure out what would motivate people to support fascism or be the bad guys in wwii and by extension in other wars in racial lynchings i don t think the books are perfect and the study of psychopathology has advanced but you can elicit koresh types from even the first volume so i think they re onto something how cult psychology works i m an amateur hope i m not hopelessly naive so long as koresh could own his people he made sure they didn t believe there was any life out there for them away from him otherwise he d koresh be nothing during the siege ex davidians recounted how he convinced the people in the compound they survived only through his intercession with god to spare their worthless souls absolutely classic brainwashing technique as long as they believed him they d ignore batf fbi child protective services or even the red cross asking them to come out after all if they ever left him god would catapult them straight to hell and the combined forces of the us gummint with all the goodwill in the world doubtful couldn t save them for a second if i believed it i d stay and die too like the folks in jonestown for a prosaic analogy replace a cult leader with an estranged wife or husband and notice how many folks show up kill the ex and then themselves that s the consequence of shattered cultism it really does happen all the time by the way the treasured ideal in such cases without which life is meaningless is the relationship no matter how abusive rather than the individual s partner why no news don t the feds owe the world an explanation i agree that official explanations are in order i can also see good reasons for news blackouts the only fact available is that had the fbi not acted yesterday those people would be alive today that no matter what those people would have died because koresh made sure they believed they had no lives outside his influence hence it would make little difference when or how the fbi acted he held them hostage as his trump against going to jail but nothing would really stop him from offing them even if the fbi went away look at history rep leo ryan and some staffers visited jonestown at the request of constituents who had relatives there once jonestown was discovered and even though they killed ryan and his entourage they all killed themselves because jim jones knew he d be busted internal arguments asking to spare the children brought up by some of the women in the cult were shouted down there are tapes the logic of saying that no matter how bad the gummint is it wouldn t kill the kids was shouted down as blasphemy and the people who brought it up were threatened with ostracism by people who by their own avowal would be dead within the hour i suspect it s the same with the branch davidians there s a book on jonestown by james reston jr titled our father who art in hell i don t know whether it s good never read it the only way to prevent such a problem would be never to investigate reports of child abuse or sexual mistreatment or organizations buying full auto conversion kits or shipping hand grenades via ups on the off chance of stumbling across cults that would kill themselves so the only way the batf fbi could save those people and future cults is by ignoring such signs i suppose there s another way outsmarting koresh and tricking him into letting them go or somehow influencing his people to abandon him while he owns most of their means of communication with the world a mighty tough row to hoe i suspect the fbi tried to do that with blackouts noise and other sensory insults however maybe they re not very sophisticated or maybe the job is impossible it s certainly possible the guy running the show was a jerk why the fbi might want to blackout during and coverup after if they were doing a poor job of weaning the bd s from koresh they d want to keep it quiet so they wouldn t be embarrassed if they were trying to wean the bd s from koresh they d want to keep it quiet so he couldn t outflank them or well meaning boneheads from any point of view wouldn t screw it up i hate playing chess when the world screams in my face especially if at checkmate time people really die and i could be blamed i don t think ignoring such incidents is a workable policy unless you deny the fbi batf child protective services of whatever stripe and the rest of the gummint should exist at all the end okay have at it
talk.politics.guns	re cnn for sale croaker highlite uucp francis a ney writes i will add my voice to the hopefully growing multitudes i hereby pledge towards the purchase of cnn under the same conditions as already described i will also post this idea on the other nets i can access rime and libernet i ll go in for worth of cnn stock is anyone from the nra listening
talk.politics.guns	re cnn for sale influencing the coverage in apr guinness idbsu edu betz gozer idbsu edu andrew betz writes in article apr ucsu colorado edu fcrary ucsu colorado edu frank crary writes i d be willing to go in as well by the way we wouldn t need to buy the network wholesale simply owning a large number of shares would still work if of the shareholders want pro gun coverage and the rest don t really care they ll go along just to keep the happy i d go along with this plan as well turner s stock is traded on the american exchange and has classes a b and c a and b stock is currently about bucks a share c stock is about bucks a share does anybody have any idea how much stock tbs has issued what would it take to reach or even um i sortof hesitate to bring this up but owning even a single share entitles you to attend the annual shareholders meeting and under most corporate charters to introduce topics to be discussed while i don t suggest the tactic used by some in japan go to the shareholders meeting and disrupt the bejeezus out of everything what about a well worded resolution complaining about advocacy journalism laird p broadfield lairdb crash cts com ucsd nosc crash lairdb hi i m a shareware signature send if you use me send for manual
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article c tenu f ns nodak edu green plains nodak edu bill green writes what i would like to see is some serious discussion of this incident i believe the moves made were right and proper but i still have some problems with some of the tactics after watching the abc special on it tonight as well as cnn and nightline i question some of the atf and fbi actions my god a sane person somebody asking intelligent questions rather than spouting of unsubstantiated drivel and making comparisons to nazi germany i question along with others the initial raid by the atf there are some definite questions needing answers could it have been possible to have taken koresh outside the compound at some time before the feb th raid probably which is why there are so many people angry at the initial confrontation why attack a compound with as many people in that compound who are willing to die for their leader further they attacked in the daylight hours without proper backup medical support etc that was rather stupid could a further wait have resulted in a different outcome this i doubt while i question the atf s initial raid i believe that the remainder of the standoff was handled fairly well with the single exception of the psychological warfare by blaring music etc i think that was uncalled for and probably hindered the outcome were fbi actions blaring loudspeakers etc the right course of action see above and a few other questions like i said i believe the actions taken in general were proper but i still have some reservations agreed one other point i m no fan of janet reno but i do like the way she had the balls to go ahead and take full responsibility seems like the waffle boy had problems figuring out just where he stood on the issue which is actually rather refreshing nowadays most of the time the higher ups claim i don t remember or i had no involvement michael g larish amateur radio callsign kd ctz nomad ecst csuchico edu golden empire amateur radio society gears w rhc california state chico state amateur radio society csars university chico butte county sheriff s search rescue
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article c sou lnb news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes more than someone who would not release children from the compound i suppose it s too late now but the repeated use of the word release is peculiar let s say you and your family are besieged in your home by some people with tanks helicopters and automatic weapons they give you a break from the amplified sounds of dying rabbits to blare you in there release the children and they ll be perfectly all right stipulate on top of that that you may not have your epistemology entirely in order is it entirely surprising that the branch davidians were reluctant to release their children into fbi custody pgp key by finger or e mail eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu
talk.politics.guns	photographers removed from compound relay of coverage seen there was a press conference by authorities at the compound on cnn earlier today wednesday it was explained that two news photographers were found on the compound earlier this morning without permission it was explained to the press corps that this is dangerous and that an unknown photographer turning around with a long lens camera could be mistaken for someone dangerous by a texas ranger surveying the site the two photographers were said to be currently in jail and the press were warned to follow the authorities guidelines it was also emphasized that the survey of the crime scene at this point was crucial and that the press could not be allowed to interfere the press will not be allowed in until the bodies are removed and the site has been completely surveyed for evidence for a court case that is the gist of the beginning of the conference to the best of my memory i bring this up because i haven t seen anyone else note it and i haven t seen the regular newscasts mention it it will probably be mentioned in the papers tomorrow my opinions i find this disturbing while i believe that koresh is largely responsible for not ending this standoff in a peacable manner during the last days of patient opportunity i find the secrecy surrounding the aftermath more damaging to the authorities position than they realize since the vast majority of potential defendents in a court case are already dead the emphasis on the importance of building the court case seems overblown to me it will be interesting to see the hearings on this affair i have also heard congressional calls for a review and possible overhaul of government enforcement agencies which you will recall i have stated would be a good idea in previous months please also note that i by no means endorse or agree with the many conspiracy type theories i have read here and in other groups as usual i am basing my opinions on info gathered from various media and filtered by my own common sense and consideration of plausibility imho as such my opinion is subject to change as more information is made available scott roby standard disclaimer
talk.politics.guns	re clinton joins list of genocidal socialist leaders in article r rnn rdt usenet ins cwru edu bu cleveland freenet edu brandon d ray writes in a previous article nomad ecst csuchico edu michael larish says in article r ug d btr btr com michaelh public btr com michael hahn michaelh btr com writes a partial list of excellent socialist visionaries and the tolls they ve taken of unpopular religious ethnic social groups mao tse tung millions killed j stalin millions killed a hitler millions killed pol pot s killed w j clinton killed but relax he s only had a hundred or so days you people are rather amusing in a perverse sort of way you take a tragic unpleasant situation that you feel is a terrible injustace and assign blame to anybody and everybody with or without a link to the incident simply because they don t fit your extremely narrow definition of good how is clinton responsible it was a law enforcement action granted it was a nationally covered incident but clinton had no more to do with the outcome than fred flintstone perhaps you ve been under a rock the last few days the batf and the fbi are both federal agencies clinton has admitted in front of news cameras that janet reno the once and future attorney general gave him a full briefing of what was planned before they did it and he gave her the go ahead maybe just possibly that makes him a teensy bit responsible the fbi cia batf etc are federal agencies you are correct but to think there is a visible and clear chain of command up to the prez and that these agencies inform reno who informs clinton etc is naive these agencies operate as distinct and seperate entities and while they have ultimate accountability to the prez they make their own moves and then tell the prez who says i knew all along while this may not seem right or it may not fit our idealistic need to see a structured chain of command leading to the white house thats the way it is bureaucracys are not after all composed of or people who talk on a regular basis have lunch and maybe golf together i do agree the fbi batf messed up i m not sure if they should have stormed the compound or not by the way jehova witnesses are a religious minority in this country protestantism is a minority religion in the world bds were a cult by all definitions and history of cults to say this is not to persecute a religious or ethnic enclave koresh said he was the messiah i was raised a baptist although i do not practice the religion and do not think that the big guy upstairs is digging the divisiveness closemindedness and right wing morons that are associated with the religion anyway the messiah that i was taught about would not be carrying a gun let alone stockpiling weapons you can doubt batf reports all you want david koresh was not a poor soul who was unjustly persecuted while some of the information coming from the u s government is being exagerated so as keep public opinion on their side i do believe that some of the things that former cult members have said are true anyway this is just another excuse to try and blame president clinton for something people who attempt to do this for political motives should be ashamed they are the ones who are keeping this country from reaching its full potential
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in r finndlu cronkite central sun com dbernard clesun central sun com writes in article news eng convex com gardner convex com steve gardner writes in article r j k da menudo uh edu hadcrjam admin uh edu miller jimmy a writes minor quibble the assualt and it was one began near dawn the fire did not break out for several hours minor quibble back at you i am in the same general area as the koresh compound and i can tell you that the air was quite chilly that morning especially with the high winds that were blowing of course the swiss cheese walls made it even worse you are correct wrt the idea of some heating being nice that morning but part of that line was also for the guy who said minutes later the fires started i did forget how cool it was that day those choppers flying around didn t make the wind any more still either when you got mph winds swinging across the texas plain a couple of hueys don t add one whole hell of a lot semper fi jammer jim miller texas a m university and i don t speak for uh which is too bad because they could use the help become one with the student billing system be the student billing system power finds its way to those who take a stand stand up ordinary man rik emmet gil moore mike levine triumph
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article r a jinn g charnel ecst csuchico edu nomad ecst csuchico edu michael larish writes in article c tenu f ns nodak edu green plains nodak edu bill green writes could a further wait have resulted in a different outcome this i doubt while i question the atf s initial raid i believe that the remainder of the standoff was handled fairly well with the single exception of the psychological warfare by blaring music etc i think that was uncalled for and probably hindered the outcome but suppose they had waited the worst outcome would have been the one that actually did but with the fbi atf just standing there watching instead of being a part of the problem it then would have been very clear exactly who was at fault then rather than the way it turned out and that would have been the worst case the best would have been they finally get hungry and come out possible likely well the alternative was worse one other point i m no fan of janet reno but i do like the way she had the balls to go ahead and take full responsibility seems like the waffle boy had problems figuring out just where he stood on the issue which is actually rather refreshing nowadays most of the time the higher ups claim i don t remember or i had no involvement but what does it matter why say i don t remember when it doesn t make any difference altho the clintonettes have been pretty good at lying when it wasn t necessary they didn t do it this time but it wasn t necessary claiming full responsibility is a totall meaningless gesture symbolism over substance again i ve offered to take full responsibility when do they pay me the big bucks the ag is making bob rahe delaware tech comm college aids drugs abortion internet bob hobbes dtcc edu don t liberals just kill you ci genie bob rahe save whales and kill babies
talk.politics.guns	crimestrike phoenix gazette editorial editorial a saturday april crimestrike hits town with the chilling reality of crime at the hands of urban terrorists that were noted above a high school student and gang article in the same column we welcome into the ranks of those dedicated to re moving criminals from the streets the national rifle association s new crimestrike project engineered by arizona s former chief assist ant attorney general steven j twist crimestrike is working to reverse the disturbing trend of daily crime it is promoting solutions that can be applied nationally including tough and honest sentencing of the sort that arizona is applying with its truth in sentencing law funding construction and staffing of appropriate prison space ensuring that the system is primed to punish serious youthful offenders strict attention to the rights of victims and citizen and community involvement phoenix will be the home for this national organization the gazette has vigorously opposed many nra policies on issues of gun control and will be resolute in promoting prudent laws that seek reasonable regulation of firearms but crimestrike is an appropriate creation a response to a clear need for more robust vigilance in holding legislators and judges ac countable when it comes to swiftly and surely punishing criminals when an organization has an issue it has an issue and crime strike has it especially when it is willing to direct its dollars to getting criminals off the street we say welcome to town
talk.politics.guns	a little question of blame was re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article apr mcs kent edu mhamilto nimitz mcs kent edu the lawnmowerman writes however it was the branch davidian people in there that insisted on staying there with their savior yeah right budy boy because he had brain washed them into believing that what ever he says is the truth even if means that they are to give up their lives for his cause tolerent aren t we their s was hardly the first faith sect cult to espouse this type of belief therefore it is davids fault and not the atf s who gave them to days to get out this was days to many for me and for many of the rest of the u s i keep hearing this and while i ll agree that he should have come out legally that was his best option he didn t and as far as i know there is no legal provision for we re tired of this shit lets just kick some ass so i have a question for you here goes i come up to you and point a gun at you saying i m going to count to ten if you aren t standing on your head by then i ll kill you you believe that standing on your head is the road to damnation so you don t do it bang you are now dead is it my fault for shooting you or you re fault for being shot koresh wouldn t stand on his head aaron
talk.politics.guns	re riddle me this in article c uiho lk chinet chi il us dhartung chinet chi il us dan hartung writes gt a prism gatech edu cochrane james shapleigh writes on the subject of cs cn tear gas when i received my initial introduction to you couldn t find a window after six hours daniel a hartung dhartung chinet chinet com ask me about rotaract have you ever been violently sick repeatedly i have and it was difficult to drag myself back to my bed much less move through a building full of smoke and debris especially when most likely already disoriented from lack of sleep and constant psychological abuse throw in the fact that the safety outside consists of people who have shot at me and thrown grenades at me and are currently knocking my house down with tanks i could understand if the bd s were inclined to stay put in the center of the building james s cochrane when in danger or in doubt run in this space gt a prism gatech edu circles scream and shout for rent
talk.politics.guns	starting my letter writing campaign okay here is the result of my efforts i m just getting started with this type of activity so please set your flame thowers on low comments corrections suggestions welcomed editor i would like to ask you and your readers a few questions that are related to the right to keep and bear arms and to a greater degree the many other rights that we take for granted on a daily basis you re sleeping at night when you hear someone in your house you call the police how will you defend yourself should the need arise while you are waiting for the police to arive you are driving your family home when your car breaks down a good samaritan stops to help when you find you and your family at gun point or knife point how will you defend yourself and your family you are a woman walking alone to your car or home a man appears suddenly with the intent to rape you how will you defend yourself are you strong enough to fight off your attacker are you willing to let this man rape you in order to survive the attack if the house and senate have their way we will soon not have the right to keep and bear arms as provided by the second amendment to the constitution a gun may not be the answer to each and every dangerous situation but are you going to let the politicians decide what sort of force or weapon you may use to defend yourself and your family many times a situation may be diffused by just brandishing your handgun if certain members of the house and senate have their way and mm ammunition will be banned for sale to anyone other than the military and law enforcement departments very soon you may not be able to purchase ammunition for use in your handgun there is already a day waiting period in california do you really feel that any law abiding citizen should be required to wait this amount of time for the purchase of a handgun when his life or family members have been threatened our local police do an excellent job but they can not be there all the time or in a moments notice you should have the right to protect yourself while waiting for help to arrive there is currently legislation circulating in washington that would prohibit the sale of certain types of ammuntion handguns rifles and shot guns one elected official even wants to repeal the second amendment i want to ask the readers of this paper what they would do if their elected officials decided that they should only belong to a certain church or go to church on a partiular day what if you were told that you could only read certain books write about certain subjects what if you no longer had the right to a jury of your peers how about the right to assemble in a peaceful manner these are all rights that are provided by our constitution and the amendments if we give up one right we may as well give them all up if you do not fight for the right to keep and bear arms what will you fight for when your life is affected write your law makers now protect all of your rights by defending your second amendment rights
talk.politics.guns	re cnn for sale in article qt pt ge geraldo cc utexas edu mikey ccwf cc utexas edu strider writes in article aej d cmuvm bitnet aej d cmuvm bitnet writes in article uupcb yob sccsi com jim wray yob sccsi com jim wray says bill vojak hey if you can get it together i m all for it i too am one of the poor a college student get a bank account set aside and set aside a big ass data base and you will get my contribution i m setting aside as of now a month not a slew of cash to be sure but it s the best i can do let me know what you guys come up with i m sure as hell not going anywhere e mail to djh rigel tamu edu death to tyrants kane better ideas anyone haven t heard em yet
talk.politics.guns	re rewording the second amendment ideas dfo vttoulu tko vtt fi foxvog douglas writes viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes that really depends upon where you draw the line while defining these weapons this means you would support a ban if it were narrow enough good very narrow very very narrow if you ll recall i was the nut that advocated the possibility of tactical nukes being militia weapons in certain situations how can you possibly define what is a weapon and what isn t is only the start of this and also on if you intend the law to be reflective of modern practice five months or five centuries down the road i would hope so let s define a nuclear weapon as an explosive weapon whose majority of energy comes from fission and or fusion of atomic nuclei and you ve just described any civilian reactor because your definition fails to note what energy is being considered reactors blow with a steam explosion but the majority of energy still comes from fission or fusion because that is what heated the coolant see what a can of worms this is last i heard ft calhoun station just north of omaha nebraska wasn t considered a weapon given the sodium cooled breeder designs on the blocks now i can easily envision reactors being household appliances in under twenty years with the prism design there is no operator input needed on the reactor itself and it is not unreasonable to assume the secondary side can be made equally as automatic in the future so your definition is flawed in a few respects already let s define a biological weapon as live organisms or viruses in such state quantity and with such a vector that they could cause death or serious disease further defined to a significant number of people if released in a city similarly populated area resevoir or cropland typhoid mary would likely fit this bill if she sneezed if you don t mind extrapolation any hiv positive person also fits this bill if they interact with others in a way that stands any chance of spreading the virus finally that manure pile i mention below fits this definition as does say releasing a pet rattlesnake to the wild nerve gas and mustard gas are well defined other poisonous gasses should be individually banned only if it can be shown that there is no use not related to weaponry licenses should be available for research purposes on such chemicals and i can show where any such gas has other uses for example perhaps we would like to rid the hay field of gophers calcium carbide is a rock that dissolves in water to produce aceteylne gas it can be used for welding in miners lamps for gassing gophers or for making carbide bombs and doing some illicit fishing toss some in a toilet and leave a lighted cigarette on the seat and you ll see that it can also be a weapon just like any other flammable substance so now my miners lamps won t work i can t do any welding and i still have those pesky gophers i am not a lawyer but these ideas could certainly be a basis for definitions the basis for but i m sure you see that the problem is not in writing a law it is in writing a law that cannot be abused and extended beyond the point where it does any good i ll give you a little hint see that manure pile in the farmer s field down the road in the usa that is a weapon of mass destruction nope it is not considered a weapon it is under your proposed law so is a silage pit if there is run off so are underground fuel tanks biological in nature because if it gets washed into an open well it will contaminate the aquifers that supply thousands of cities with drinking water so where do you draw the line in the usa the epa has ruled that a pile of scrap iron is illegal care to draw a thinner line this time it is not defined as a weapon of mass destruction many things are banned for other reasons it meets all the criterion of a weapon it is an instrument that can be used for fighting even though that is not its intended purpose and despite there being better weapons around given that the aquifers supply a significant part of the country with drinking water mass destruction is rather a given it s not that certain weapons aren t something i d rather not see a lot of people having the problem is that it is nearly impossible to write a law such that it cannot be abused upon some pretext or another the looser your definition the more ripe for abuse that law is furthermore if you get specific then the old standby is to insert a clause allowing the list of banned things to be added to generally without going through the hassles of another vote and public reading of the law again ripe for abuse dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
talk.politics.guns	re cnn report fbi atf killing all americans in article apr csli stanford edu cower csli stanford edu richard cower writes cnn just reported the atf and the fbi have begun killing everyone in the united states a press release stated this action was required because bugs had revealed that many people were doing something illegal in their homes and statistical data indicated that those who weren t might someday do something illegal an atf spokesperson just before he shot himself stated that this would clean up things once and for all for those of you still unsure whether this is satire the jury is still out also yesterday even though the compound no longer exists the us attorney s office here released formerly sealed documents including a search warrant and related affidavits that authorities planned to use when the siege was over these documents did not include the original warrants the bureau of alcohol tobacco and firearms had in late february which to this day have never been released one of the documents indicated the agency planned to seek samples of koresh s handwriting not only to verify that he had signed for some gun purchases but also that he espoused certain doctrines hostile to law enforcement and particularly the atf so one of the charges against koresh seems to be contempt of cop he expressed hostility to the batf that chilly feeling in your gonads is perfectly normal folks it should go away in about days the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz that should save them the trouble of subpoena ing samples heavens knows i want to cooperate fully meinherren cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re riddle me this dhartung chinet chi il us dan hartung writes gt a prism gatech edu cochrane james shapleigh writes on the subject of cs cn tear gas when i received my initial introduction to tear gas the first thing that came to mind was the location of the exit if there had been anything in the way corners to negotiate doors to open or any other obstacles to movement i would have had a difficult time exiting you couldn t find a window after six hours i d bet cash of the people couldn t find the window after six minutes ask anybody who s taken basic training in the military it is not at all uncommon for a few soldiers who have not properly attached and cleared their masks to require assistance exiting the chamber since that chamber has a door not just a window it s likely a hell of a lot easier to exit than a multi room damaged house dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
talk.politics.guns	don kates talk on the branch davidians this was posted by lyn bates to the firearms politics mailing list i recently learned that don kates was going to be in boston to give a talk at the harbard law school about the waco situation of course this was all set up after the incident started but long before its unhappy conclusion so yesterday i went to hear him what follows is a rough summary of what i think i heard him say which should not be taken as exactly what he actually said kates started by saying that since he didn t know any more about the fire than the audience did it had just happened the day before he would not discuss that but would concentrate on the original raid koresh definitely was not playing with a full deck but so what this isn t the first time that the leader of a new small religious group has been ridiculed by the public extreme religious views nearly always fuel hatred and mistrust the first amendment applies maybe especially to people like koresh lengthy digression into the history of police organizations in the us there were none until about when they began in metropolitan areas police originally were not armed if they found a crime in progress they called local armed citizens to help many began to carry arms for protection despite regulations against them eventually the laws were changed to allow them to carry guns the original intent was to have many small police departments jealous of one another and competitive but not large enough to be a threat to liberty hence the plethora of organizations ranging from postal inspectors to the coast guard when the fbi was started agents did not have the authority oto carry guns they were to be after all a bureau of investigation not a police force all police agencies will be misused by anyone in power to maintain that power the batf started as a tax collection agency whose primary job was to raid illegal stills when the price of sugar went up so high that moonshiners no longer found their trade no longer profitable many illegal stills disappeared and the batf needed something else to do to justify its existence so it turned to activities like phony raids on gun stores around the time when the batf s annual budget is under review the media is alerted by the batf to come to such and such a place where at a pre arranged time a bunch of cars full of batf agents roar up to the door and the media get great pictures of the agents entering the premises of a gun dealer suspected of not keeping books properly the media isn t invited in for the boring hours of agents leafing through paperwork but if any irregularities are found the media gets to cover the agents removing armfuls of guns from the premises and the luckless ffl in chains the waco incident happened a few weeks before batf s budget was up for review kates opinion is that it was a staged publicity stunt that went bad and that the batf never thought for a moment that they would actually be shot at or they would have planned the raid differently not sending agents over open ground with no cover for example and would have had some medical personnel on hand he confirmed that some years ago there was a warrant for koresh s arrest in connection with a murder charge and the local sheriff called him on the phone and explained about it koresh sais ok come pick me up and the sheriff did temporarily confiscating all the guns so that they could be tested koresh was later cleared release and presumably got his guns back at least at that time he was rational enough to be approached rationally and behaved in a reasonable manner the batf didn t take into account that unlike most of the ffl s they audit koresh was actually paranoid and fostered paranoia in his followers thus the pubicity stunt looked like a real attack to them and they reacted accordingly with respect to the original warrant it had not been unsealed when kates was giving his talk so he could not comment on it except to mention that the batf has been known to not double check the veractiy of their informants if they can manage to get a judge to issue a warrant he had more to say about the way the warrant was served which may have been completely illegal apparently the proper way to serve a warrant is to knock on the door and announce that you re an officer with a warrant for thus and so if they don t open the door and the evidence is flushable then it is ok to break in the door but since it is hard to flush guns down the toilet there may have been no justification for the batf breaking in the way they did if the constitutional rights of the davidians were violated by an invalid warrant or by an improperly served warrant then the davidians may have been justified in their actons a close look at one of the original films shows that one batf agent may have shot himself by accident when entering the building if so this was the first shot fired the role of the media could have been a whole lot worse after an initial position on the side of the batf the media began to come around to the view that this might be a situation in which legally armed citizens held off a bad possibly illegal attack a real cynic might say that the fbi went in when they did because it was clear that public opinion was beginning to change sides and the fbi wanted to act before they lost the public s sympathy should the batf be abolished no police agencies should be numerous diverse inefficient decentralized etc better a few inept accidents like this than a move toward a single large well organized well trained powerful domestic police force which would eventually have even more tragic results lyn bates bates bbn com ps don kates will be giving a shorter version of this talk at boston college law school next tuesday april i don t know the exact time or place but presumably a phone call to the bc law school could elicit that information larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
talk.politics.guns	re nature of the waco gas in article r inndlu cronkite central sun com dbernard clesun central sun com dave bernard writes just heard on the network radio news a spokesman from the army saying that the type of cs gas used in waco had been banned from military use its use is also banned by a draft international agreement on the use of chemical weapons in warfare the reason given was that the use causes extreme nausea blindness disorientation total irrationality raging paranoia children would be all the more susceptible and show the results all the earlier interesting development especially since the feds and the u n accused saddam hussein of using illegal chemicals on his own citizens as well hmmm republican guard iraqu army fbi batf you decide i hope very much that others who will be tempted to join cults and to become involved with people like david koresh will be deterred by the horrible scenes they have seen over the last seven weeks president william jefferson clinton april at a press conferance held the day after the branch davidians compound went up in flames while under attack by the fbi atf near waco texas is your church u s government approved connect the god damned dots ministry tv song clinton administration e mail addresses clintonhq campaign org mcimail provided as a public service by compuserve com compuserve jon edward shum jon mitre org clintonpz aol com america online
talk.politics.guns	women with guns on cbs catch tonight s thursday s cbs street stories covers among others the work of aware arming women against rape and endangerment a women s empowerment and training group in massachusetts they ll be interviewing spokesperson nancy bittle as well as some of her students assuming all of the interesting stuff they taped makes the final cut if they show the ugly housebreaker in the toque and sunglasses wave hi cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re janet reno on nightline in article finn apr dalek isi edu finn isi edu greg finn writes i am bothered by the suggestion of child abuse that janet reno used several times last night both on and off nightline as a de facto justification for approving the raid if that is to be used as a justification of potentially lethal force attack on the compound and doing structural damage can fairly be called that then that evidence had better be quite strong that seemed to be on ted kopel s mind last night reno stated that they had evidence of child abuse she would not say what it was koresh s now ex lawyer was inside the compound repeatedly and told her to her face last night that he saw plenty of happy children playing with their mothers and no signs of child abuse whatsoever no brooding silent children no apparent bruising and so on her reply to this was that child abuse is not always as evident as that true but what better evidence could the fbi have had at this point it seems difficult to see how the fbi could have had better evidence than that seen by koresh s lawyer who was an eye witness having lived in la and seen the media and authority feeding frenzy that accompanied the mcmartin preschool debacle i have seen just how hot a button a child abuse charge can be child abuse has been used before by authorities as a justification to discard prudence i find janet reno s repeated assertions of evidence of child abuse rather curious wasn t the warrant issued for a supposed weapons violation that certainly had nothing to do with child abuse are we to assume therefore that new evidence of child abuse arose after the issuance of that warrant and the initial assault if so i fail to see now how that new evidence was gathered and how it could be better that on site eye witness evidence gregory finn information sciences institute marina del rey ca on tv news this morning it was reported that the local texas authorities who have reviewed the cases of the children who were released earlier in the siege have found no evidence of physical or sexual abuse of any of the children i don t recall if this was on good morning america or our local texas tv station joe gaut in the super state it really does not f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu matter at all what actually happened remember the alamo truth is what the government chooses to remember waco tell you justice is what it wants to happen jim garrison new orleans la
talk.politics.guns	re fbi director s statement on waco standoff ndallen r node hub org nigel allen writes fbi director s statement on waco standoff i had hoped to be making a very different statement this evening after very careful planning and extensive preparation we all thought that today s efforts by the fbi to bring the branch davidians out of their compound would result in the peaceful resolution of the stand off or at least meaningful negotiation instead we are faced with devastation and death however i have no question that our plan was correct and was conducted with extreme professionalism and care i applaud the restraint shown by agents in the face of life threatening gunfire and i thank them for risking their lives to try to end this peacefully i have only the greatest admiration for the courage and professionalism of all involved i have no question that our plan was correct months to get ready unlimited funds knowledge of a threatened mass suicide by fire and no fire trucks on hand this is extreme professionalism and care i can understand the first screwed up raid by the batf they underestimated the opposition which happens but not this one the fbi had their first team in place massive resources ample time for planning and bringing up any specialized equipment or people necessary they still botched it the fbi director and the fbi sac in overall charge should resign or be fired for incompetence i don t blame reno or clinton they gave the fbi clear orders don t go in unless you can do it without casualties if you can t do that wait it out those were reasonable orders the fbi said they could pull off a tactical solution and they couldn t john nagle
talk.politics.guns	re should anybody be permitted to own a bmg rifle in article jcehc cunyvm bitnet jcehc cunyvm bitnet writes path nntpd cxo dec com pa dec com decwrl ames saimiri primate wisc edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu news ysu edu psuvm cunyvm jcehc organization city university of new york date wednesday apr edt from jcehc cunyvm bitnet message id jcehc cunyvm bitnet newsgroups talk politics guns subject should anybody be permitted to own a bmg rifle lines for the moment forget about batf incompetence or fbi hubris did anybody catch rep charles shumer on the news last night holding up a bmg cartridge and rhetorically asking if anybody should be allowed to own one of these i presume he meant the rifle for which it is chambered and not the cartridge which you can get for a buck so what s your guess for the upcoming anti gun agenda a ban on heavy caliber rifles read bmg a ban on sniper rifles a ban on stockpiling guns and ammunition btw shumer is perhaps the most misinformed congressman i have seen on the news i wonder how he finds the floor in the morning michael f gordon jcehc cunyvm cuny edu vote as you shot th cent republican campaign slogan shumer is not mis informed he knows full well what he is doing if you look at his other votes and positions as an agent of redistribution of wealth property in this country to him guns and personal freedom are incompatible with his obvious world view they are a threat to the order he would impose r it collectivism vs individualism is an ancient conflict men have come close to the truth but it was destroyed each time and one civilization fell after another civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy the savage s whole existence is public ruled by the laws of his tribe civilization is the process of setting man free from men ayn rand roark s speech from the fountainhead i don t speak for my company we hire the politically correct to do that
talk.politics.guns	re dealing with cults a few thoughts in article oaf apr klosters ai mit edu oaf zurich ai mit edu oded feingold writes look at history rep leo ryan and some staffers visited jonestown at the request of constituents who had relatives there once jonestown was discovered and even though they killed ryan and his entourage they all killed themselves because jim jones knew he d be busted the only way to prevent such a problem would be never to investigate reports of child abuse or sexual mistreatment or organizations buying full auto conversion kits or shipping hand grenades via ups on the off chance of stumbling across cults that would kill themselves so the only way the batf fbi could save those people and future cults is by ignoring such signs the paucity of this line of argument is that it is provably false texas state officials could and did investigate child abuse charges they could and did apprehend koresh peaceably the could and did impound his weapons for the duration and koresh was not convicted note that child abuse and similar accusations are state matters not federal the state could and did handle them properly and peaceably and furthermore violating no one s constitutional rights in the process so maybe the best way for batf fbi to save people is to mind their own fucking business cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch update in article c v fv krt news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes in article c uhuo awq usenet ucs indiana edu wwarf silver ucs indiana edu wayne j warf writes in article nate psygate psych indiana edu nate psygate psych indiana edu nathan engle writes yeah as information trickles in funny how that works funny yeah funny how you didn t wait for the fbi spokesdroid latest reversal of facts before proclaiming the bd s burned themselves to death if you won t believe anything the government says and the press is not reliable according to the same logic then what do you base your statements on wild speculation laced with a healthy dose of paranoia funny brent but so far we have heard two versions of the facts what the government says this includes what the government says that two survivors have said what koresh s lawyer who was actually inside the compound says including what he says that most of the survivors have said strange but they seem to disagree in most important particulars if anyone has actually seen news reports of any of the survivors speaking first hand feel free ot pitch in i may have missed it but my money is that their story will sound a hell of a lot like case and not at all like case cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re impeach clinton reno few simple points leadership you are responsible for all that your subordinates do or fail to do law any deaths that occur as a result or during the commision of a crime are a felony against whoever dies during the incident and whoever committed the crime establishing the incident is chargable for murder one this is how criminals are charged with murder for the deaths of bystanders from police stray rounds and such someone dying of a heart attack is also considered a murder one if it is in a situation caused by a crime james s cochrane when in danger or in doubt run in this space gt a prism gatech edu circles scream and shout for rent
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch update in article r d rinna e hp col col hp com dduff col hp com dave duff says nut case panics realizes he s made a complete fool of himself in front of thousands of netters backs away from earlier rash statements god have mercy on him i love a clown even a school yard one
talk.politics.guns	flames on the net about flames in waco in article c vgme goa usenet ucs indiana edu wwarf silver ucs indiana edu wa yne j warf writes in article c v fv krt news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvin e writes if you won t believe anything the government says and the press is not reliable according to the same logic then what do you base your statements on wild speculation laced with a healthy dose of paranoia are you a moron or just illiterate oh i forgot you re the guy that doesn t know microwave oven need electricity never mind and you re the guy that doesn t know that illiterate people can t write coherent sentences does that make you superior somehow steve steve casburn scasburn magnus acs ohio state edu across the page across the ages the moving hand of history pleads for a kinder eye to see us not as we are but as we dream mark king
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article apr mcs kent edu mhamilto nimitz mcs kent edu the lawnmowerman says deleted lives for his cause therefore it is davids fault and not the atf s who gave them to days to get out this was days to many for me and for many of the rest of the u s i am however sad to hear of the death of any child unlike the sick bastard i supposedly am matthew r hamilton mhamilto mcs kent edu a k a cs physics major h ksuvxb kent edu the lawnmowerman kent state university h ksuvxb kent edu how tragically ironic that a post like this should originate from kent state apparently the lessons of history have been ignored there
talk.politics.guns	re the dayton gun buy back re boston gun buy back in apr mtu edu cescript mtu edu charles scripter writes is there something similar pro gun people can do for example pay to anyone who lawfully protects their life with a firearm sounds a bit tacky but hey whatever works how about a gun buy back charity get some sponsors to fund the purchase of used firearms have a gunsmith check them over and give or sell them at a low price to poor persons wishing to own firearms why sell them at a low price to poor people immediately the nra is an educational organization too after all and it would be a shame to pay all that money for new guns when these cheap guns would allow a lot of money thus saved to be used in opening more classes mention that the nra trains our boys in blue and you ve got the media between a rock and a hard place city pays per gun to reduce crime or nra to pay per gun to provide training guns for police and citizens classes expanded with money saved dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
talk.politics.guns	re waco burning v qheg ubvmsb cc buffalo edu p vasilion writes can you imagine what happens when a magazine explodes generally the ship sinks sorry there s a picture of the uss iowa next to my desk bullets go flying every where imho these gunshot wounds were actually caused when the magazines went up first unless that round is chambered there is little threat of penetration by the bullet or the brass for that matter unless that expanding gas is held in an enclosed space you get a nice pop and not enough threat for even firefighters to worry about finally it s rather simple to tell if a person was shot prior to being burned to a crisp see by the time the ammunition went up those people were quite dead look for blood around the wound particularly bruising however it s my contention that it makes little difference whether they died from exploding ammunition or fire the feds seem to have shared responsibility for both dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
talk.politics.guns	re waco survivors april from article c segz mwr dscomsa desy de by hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker in article apm apr hpopdlau pwd hp com apm hpopdlau pwd hp com andrew merritt writes path dscomsa dxcern mcsun uknet pipex uunet think com sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com apm from apm hpopdlau pwd hp com andrew merritt in article apr vms ocom okstate edu chorley vms ocom okstate edu writes stuff about british cult members deleted what exactly are you trying to say and why were there no fire engines within a mile of the compound because the gun loonies were firing on vehicles with mm amunition that has a range of meters they were using caliber ammunition not mm ammo mm would be cm a shell of this size would be larger than a lot of cannon shells snipers could have screened the people trying to put out the fire besides the ranch house not fort apocalypse it was just a house despite what the fbi and atf says was on fire the gun loonies couldn t hardly have been shooting at fire men while there house was engulfed in flames the fbi and atf don t have any excuse for not having fire engines there to put out the blaze the bastards waited until the fire was well under way before they called the fire department in waco they didn t even tell the fire department to be on standby i sincerely hope that the fbi atf attorney general janet reno and all others involved in this fiasco get the just punishment that they so richly deserve someone should pay for this needless tragic waste of human life sadly these evil sobs will probably never face justice the media and the government will just whitewash this incident and chalk it up as being solely david koresh s fault sadder still the american people will probably believe them next question the problem is of course the laws that allow a bunch of raving nutters to collect a huge stack of arms in the first place this is not the problem the problem is that we have a government that is becoming more tyrannical every day if people decide to own guns and live in one place together then that is their prerogative on the other hand if the bds were in posession of explosives and illegal guns then the government did have the right to search their compound but the allegations that the bds were in posession of illegal weapons hasn t been proven yet so i m not going to conclude that the bds broke any laws david koresh was accused of abusing children but if this is his only crime then the presence of the atf can t be justified the atf is only supposed to deal with firearms tobacco and alcohol violations atf agents are basically cigarette cops they should stay out of other kinds of law enforcement actions that are out of their jurisdiction better yet they should be s tcanned imo the sequence of events meant that there really was no option but to attempt some sort of breakthrough via an intervention if the fbi had had the stomach for it they could have mounted a commando type raid and attempted to save the children by shooting all the adults sounds like something the ss would do human life children and adults alike should be treated with respect even if they are heavily armed religious wackos david koresh s lawyer seemed to think that everyone would come out peacefully sooner or later the fbi and atf had nothing but time on their hands why did they have to escalate the situation and cause this senseless tragedy their job is to protect the public and save lives not kill people for crying out loud it really was a no win situation koresh had plenty of opportunity to give up and stand trial for the murder of the atf officers instead he ordered the murder of the children don t be so sure about that i read in a newspaper today that one of the cult members said that when one of the tanks went through the wall that it knocked over a lantern which caused the ranch house to be caught on fire this cult member also said that david koresh had no intentions of committing mass suicide david koresh s lawyer also confirms this therefore if this is true then this means that the fbi and atf murdered everyone in that house even if this is not true the fbi and atf still don t get off the hook because they waited a damn long time to call the waco fire department perhaps they wanted all these people to die in order to reject the word of the fbi and batf it is neccessary to beleive the words of a man who has just murdered children and ordered the suicide murder of his other followers according to the account given the batf attempted to serve a warrant upon koresh at the ranch and were met by gunfire in a deliberate attempt to murder them the koresh gun supporter claim that the batf started shooting simply does not stand up if the aft had gone there to start shooting they would have gone with heavier grade weaponry than standard issue handguns for all practical purposes they were unarmed the b d followers had automatic weapons you re wrong on several accounts atf agents were adequately armed they had mp s ar s and shotguns some agents were armed with automatic pistols but not all were the atf s initial claim which they later retracted that agents were underarmed is simply ludicrous the b d seige could not be allowed to go on indefinitely the b d were quite capable of commiting mass suicide and murdering the children at any time a commando assault was the only other likely action that could have achieved that objective that would have been very risky orders of magintude harder than antebbe or the iranian embassy seige airplanes and embassies are not designed for defense against attack ranch apocalypse was terrorists are far easier to disloge without casualties than allowing the siege to go on was not an option either besides the serious risk that koresh would proclaim armageddon at any moment there was the question of the difficulties of keeping the emmergency team on standby over a prolonged period the longer the siege went on the more mentally prepared koresh and his followers would be for a prolonged siege rather than go in prematurely the mistake was probably to go in too soon can you think of a better way of getting the children out a certain way the people who do not want gun control must obviously discount the entire government story this is simply rationalisation it is not enough for them to simply dismiss the government as incompetent that would require them to come up with a solution themselves instead they have to come up with a government conspiracy theory whereby the government decided to set out to murder people just to set up some sort of scare to alow them to get gun control legislation through gun control isn t the only issue here if the sick little monkeys in washington try to use the waco incident as a reason to ban guns then they will have demonstrated just how f ed up they are what concerns me much more than new gun control legislation is that the government seems to be able to get away with s t like they did in waco they are becoming more and more callous about people s rights and the law this greatly disturbs me and it should disturb you as well this conspiracy theory assumes that the batf deliberately got of its agents killed and that the fbi etc actually enjoy sitting out in the middle of texas being shot at by religious nutters still the conspiracy theory is comforting it allows them to pretend that waco proves nothing except about how incompetent the government is in resolving a hostage crisis no govt in the world has ever faced a comparable situation quite probably there was no manner in which it could be peacefully resolved the blame does not rest on the fbi it rests on the fact that koresh was allowed to get so far in particular the person who tipped the b d off in advance has the murder of atf agents and children on his or her conscience there are a large number of people in the us who predict the end of society preach salvation through armed security the fact is that these are the very people who pose the threat to society in the first place the next waco may not be religious nutters but a political movement a splinter group of the klu klux klan taking over a schoolhouse in a black area for example and holding several hundred children hostage the only possible solution to such situations that can work is to prevent them arising no other government in the world has faced such a situation this is because no other government has so carelessly allowed high power weaponry to become avaliable to any little hitler or would be messiah to set themselves up as dictator in their own little empire phill hallam baker scott kennedy brewer and patriot before david koresh is a cheap thug who interprets the bible through the barrel of a gun atf spokesman after the atf is a cheap thug who interprets the constitution through the barrel of a gun me
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors mhamilto nimitz mcs kent edu the lawnmowerman writes in article aej d cmuvm bitnet aej d cmuvm bitnet writes genocidal mass slaughter of innocent people besides there are nine survivors in the burn unit of the local hospital and was reported that david was in one of the towers when the shit hit the fan besides a majority of these children were children that he was supposed to have been the father of this then makes them bastard children to a sacraligious zeloit sp also someone should have told david and his followers that if they can t the heat then they should stay out of the kitchen pun intended i guess you need to be reminded of some things have you ever heard of the first amendment i guess not it isn t a crime to be a religous i know you said sacraligious but it isn t your place to judge his religion zealot in this country remember we have freedom of religion in this country i guess you are selective in that respect so what if they were bastard children they were children do you condone their deaths i pray for your lack of a soul if you do john b meaders jr gun control is being able to hit your target southwestern blvd dallas tx voicemail uucpmail karnak johnm internet johnm karnak lonestar org
talk.politics.guns	re clinton joins list of genocidal socialist leaders in article r ainn ss charnel ecst csuchico edu nomad ecst csuchico edu michael larish writes how is clinton responsible it was a law enforcement action granted it was a nationally covered incident but clinton had no more to do with the outcome than fred flintstone do i think clinton conceived of it no do i think clinton ordered it no do i think clinton was aware of it before it went down no do i think clinton was aware of it after it went down of course who wasn t do i think clinton prejudged these people to a certain extent because he believed the batf crap about child abuse and stockpiling evil semi automatic weapons yes do i think clinton ever questioned federal jurisdiction in this matter no do i think clinton ever considered the civil rights of the victims no as for the rest i won t argue whether batf handled the initial confrontation well or as it should have but from day on i have no problem with the way the operation was handled or the decisions made some of us suspect that all the unlawful mistakes made on day were made on the government s end that makes days nothing but a macho alternative to delivering an apology as for day as long as the fbi and batf didn t intentionally set the fire then while it is certainly tragic the majority of americans according to a recent poll have no problems with the operation itself who gives a good goddamn about some bullshit opinion poll of most americans most americans swallow the government line that they re fed not because they re stupid but because it s the only line they ever hear most americans thought the staff at the mcmaster school was guilty guilty guilty woops turns out they weren t most americans once thought that black slaves weren t human beings woops wrong again most americans thought saddam hussein was the antichrist oh dear he was a special friend of the american government until two years previously you know maybe truth isn t determined by majority vote of a half informed public after all in fact most americans according to this poll think it should have been resolved sooner you re just testy because of all those newsbreaks that were interrupting roseanne cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	bd s did themselves you re all paranoid freaks freed om of religion has absolutely nothing to do with building a small arsenal and grooming year old children to be your wife i ll come out as soon as i finish my manuscript on the seven seals oh ok david i agree that koresh was as much of a victim as a perpetrator this because he grew up inside the cult and engaged in a power struggle where his supporters helped inflate his ego that doesn t change the fact that he was a loose fucking cannon with a shitload of serious weapons or that he was banging thirteen year olds and twisting their impressionable little minds this was no move fuck up a helicoptor was thermal imaging the compound that afternoon and detected three fires erupting almost simultaneously there were no cs canisters a specially modified abrams was pupming the stuff in no chance of starting a fire there kerosene lamps maybe one but not three fires no way koresh wasn t just talking out of his ass i expected this to happen maybe they wanted it to look like murder he had days i think this was coming the whole time he didn t even put the children in the buried bus or the underground bunker during the cs seige he put them up into the tower to die fuck all of you big brother paranoid freaks the only good thing to come of any of this is that there will be one less group of crazoids to attract some of the more rootless members of our society joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu
talk.politics.guns	re fyi batf reply on waco in article apr ke zv uucp gary ke zv uucp gary coffman writes in article naglec n sz ia netcom com nagle netcom com john nagle writes the san francisco examiner reports that clinton has issued instructions to federal law enforcement that they may not kill or injure anyone to resolve the waco situation so they ve built a fence around the compound and are now seriously considering building up the fence to prison camp levels pulling out most of the manpower and waiting however many months it takes well either the examiner was wrong as usual or clinton lied again or perhaps david koresh didn t listen too well just because mistakes were made does not mean the president lied gary gary coffman ke zv you make it gatech wa mei ke zv gary destructive testing systems we break it uunet rsiatl ke zv gary shannon way guaranteed emory kd nc ke zv gary lawrenceville ga mark
talk.politics.guns	re nature of the waco gas in article r inndlu cronkite central sun com dbernard clesun central sun com writes just heard on the network radio news a spokesman from the army saying that the type of cs gas used in waco had been banned from military use its use is also banned by a the reason given was that the use causes extreme nausea blindness disorientation total irrationality raging paranoia children would be all the more susceptible and show the results all the earlier if we are indeed talking about cs then this is not quite accurate cs is just tear gas albeit the worst kind it isn t a nausea gas and doesn t have direct cns effects however it s quite bad much worse than cn gas i was briefly exposed to it once during an engagement in berkeley circa and it s not the kind of thing you forget it seems to be moisture activated it not only made my eyes sting and water but attacked my breathing passages and lungs breathing was painful and my entire face felt as if it was on fire these effects persisted for hours after exposure and i was coughing for days afterwards if i was exposed to a dense concentration of this stuff in a closed space for several hours i doubt whether i could find the exit indeed i can t imagine living through it die welt ist alles was zerfall ist peter cash apologies to ludwig wittgenstein cash convex com
talk.politics.guns	re congress to review atf s status in article c vzhf d k cbnews cb att com lvc cbnews cb att com larry cipriani writes washington upi as part of its investigation of the deadly confrontation with a texas cult congress will consider whether the bureau of alcohol tobacco and firearms should be moved from the treasury department to the justice department senators said wednesday the idea will be considered because of the violent and fatal events at the beginning and end of the agency s confrontation with the branch davidian cult of course when the catbox begines to smell simply transfer its contents into the potted plant in the foyer why hillary your government smells so fresh cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re waco burning in article c wcyb n f dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes no koresh is responsible if a murderer goes on the rampage it is the murderer who is responsible the police may bear responsiblity for failing to stop him but the primary responsibility is with the murderer when did koresh go on a rampage what i saw was an unnecessary unprovoked massive attack on feb th probably even an illegal action by atf certainly way out of proportion to anything reasonable and yet according to a pole taken yesterday of the people poled believe the government forces acted appropriately they don t believe reno or the president have any guilt in ordering allowing the attack i suppose they also believed things like i would present a year plan to balance the budget we don t need to lead with a tax increase it starts with a middle class tax cut i ll have the bills ready the day after i am inaugurated and we ll have a day period it will be the most productive in modern history i will ask congress for a line item veto i will lift the social security earnings test i personally prefer to disbelieve the government until they prove themselves right rather than the other way around that way i have a better than chance of being right about my first guess read the constitution sometime it is supposed to protect the citizens and their rights i am sick of the abuse of government power as tom jefferson said when all government shall be drawn to washington as the centre of all power it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated
talk.politics.guns	re gun buy back in article apr rti rti org jbs rti rti org writes in article bb ba a r vmcms csuohio edu r vmcms csuohio edu writes gun buyback programs will hopefully have an impact on accidental shootings especially youths domestic disputes where a gun is available in the heat of emotion and anger and maybe keep a few guns from being stolen and later used in street level crime what gives you the idea that gun buyback programs will have an impact on any of these things evidence please please don t misinterret what i was saying joe i was making the point tha there is no evidence of effect of gun buyback programs but hopefully if there is any effect it may prevent injuries or deaths in one of these types of common incidents if you re a research associate in urban child research then perhaps you can comment for us on the ratio of the accidental gun death rate to the rate of accidental death from other single causes follow that perhaps with some sort of justification for the amount of effort that anti gunners spend trying to convince the country that accidental gun related death among children in the u s is a serious problem firearms are the fifth leading cause of unintentional deaths among children ages and under i don t understand how the ratio to other accidental deaths is important so guns don t kill as many children as car accidents what is the difference in severity between deaths and deaths i am not trying to use accidental gun related deaths among children as a justification for gun control who needs to be convinced that accidental gun deaths of children is a serious problem i assumed that any humane person would be concerned when any year old got hold of their parents gun from their bedroom drawer and accidently blew away one of their friends more than anything gun buyback programs are symbolic offerings to the community in that sense i think they might do a little good please explain why you think symbolic offerings do good my point was gun buyback programs which are almost always run by police departments might i stress might do a little i stress little good by giving people the impression that the police are attempting to respond to interpersonal gun violence in a unique way overall i thought that i had made it clear that i did not think that gun buyback programs were useful i do know that the vast majority of guns that are used by youths or brought to school by youths on a daily basis about youths are obtained easily and quickly through a personal friend or more often borrowed from a parent without their knowledge i suggest you go back and look at wherever you saw these statistics i suspect you ll find if you look carefully that is the number of students estimated to have carried a weapon not necessarily a gun to school at least once in the past year and not the number of students who carry a gun to school daily well joe i suggest that you talk to the center to prevent handgun violence or the centers for disease control if you look carefully you will see that you greatly underestimate the presence of guns in the lives of youths the cphv reports that youth bring guns to school daily and that bring guns to school at least once a year the cdc estimates that out f high school students carried a gun to school at least once in the cdc also says that million elementary aged latch key children kids who come home from school to an empty house have access to guns in their home california schools reported a increase in student gun confiscations between and and a increase between and florida reported a percent increase in gun incidents in schools between amd these are the statistics thus willing to follow a man who claimed to be the messiah got news for you folks if the big cheese was on this crazy planet of ours presently he would not be carrying a gun or holding children when they were in danger holding kids time for a reality check son these kids were the children of the people inside who believed that the forces of evil were outside waiting to kill them would you send your children out the door if you believed as they did okay maybe i worded it wrong dad i meant that to put children in a situation fortified compound where harm could come to them is not the act of a messiah in my opinion i m not saying that koresh had control over these children directly but i would hope that whatever messiah there is would not let innocent children die if as he claimed he was the messiah and people followed him as such why did he not tell their parents to free the children instead of letting them burn alive thanks for the reality check joe its been real rodney
talk.politics.guns	re waco burning in article c wcyb n f dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes no koresh is responsible if a murderer goes on the rampage it is the murderer who is responsible ram page n to move about wildly or violently a course of frenzied violent action who assaulted who here phill do you remember exactly which side came out looking for trouble the police may bear responsiblity for failing to stop him but the primary responsibility is with the murderer so if it turns out that the fire was caused by a tank knocking over a coleman lantern you ll support punishing the responsible people phill or will you find then find a different reason to hang it all on koresh cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article c zsyn mtd sugar neosoft com jpsb neosoft com jim shirreffs writes if the fbi started the fire why didn t people flee the burning building james dusek james it could be that they were determined to stay together in the compound no matter what happened perhaps the fire was accidental and the db simply refused to leave the compod perhap they died fighting the fire who knows we will have to wait and see i persaonlly find it hard to believe that they would all agree to burn themselves up what a horrible way to go jim shirreffs i seem to recall graphic news file of buddhist monks setting themselves on fire in the streets of saigon yes its a horrible way to go but apparently not so horrible that someone with enough religious conviction might not be able to carry it through and since they ve discovered bullet wounds in a couple of the bodies from the compound there is the possiblity that those with the will power to self immolate also had the will power to take out the ones who had less constitutional fortitude then again maybe the fbi ran in while the fire was raging executed those two and ran out again jason durbin oracle europe
talk.politics.guns	re photographers removed from compound in article c vf q news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes two news photographers were found on the compound earlier this morning without permission it was explained to the press corps that this is dangerous and that an unknown photographer turning around with a long lens camera could be mistaken for someone dangerous by a texas ranger surveying the site in other words nice camera you got dere it would be a shame if somet in wuz ta happen to it the two photographers were said to be currently in jail it was also emphasized that the survey of the crime scene at this point was crucial and that the press could not be allowed to interfere the press will not be allowed in until the bodies are removed and the site has been completely surveyed for evidence for a court case my opinions i find this disturbing good keep thinking critically while i believe that koresh is largely responsible for not ending this standoff in a peacable manner during the last days of patient opportunity i find the secrecy surrounding the aftermath more damaging to the authorities position than they realize what if the secrecy is actually less damaging than the alternative i am basing my opinions on info gathered from various media and filtered by my own common sense and consideration of plausibility imho as such my opinion is subject to change as more information is made available please also note that i by no means endorse or agree with the many conspiracy type theories i have read here and in other groups make your own bite size pieces we ll wait cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re rewording the second amendment ideas in article c vb e ev sugar neosoft com kunkee neosoft com randy kunkee writes perhaps we are a little off track the discussion was about rewording the nd amendment this specifically refers to the right to bear arms bear and arms are key words here no is it too simplistic to say that if you can t pick it up ie bear it or if it is not a firearm then it can be restricted without amending the constitution firearm let s not even consider long knives swords which were also common militia weapons in the th century and which if anything are often restricted more heavily than firearms whatever sense gun control makes knife control makes even less cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re the holocaust revisited mcsdc jpb dct ac uk john bell babbles from scotland one of england s last remaining colonies are you for real people dumb enough to give their money and possessions to a guy who says he s jesus deserve all they get people who were dumb enough to believe klinton was a moderate deserve what they get too it s a real laugh to hear them try to justify this massacre with bullsh t about how concerned they were about how our tax money was was being spent wasting money keeping texans alive hell no let s spend it to import haitians with aids so we can treat them at taxpayer expense p anyway he killed a few feds so what the feds killed civilians when they ran out of patience to use their own phrase if the feds hadn t attacked them they d all be home eating dinner with their families tonight too bad but they started it maybe next time they ll think twice that s worth stormtroopers he s not the goddam hero here nobody says he is what he was was a victim of a left wing government that violated its pledge to protect and uphold the constitution run amok don t worry though dweeb we re gonna take it back hey i m a white guy but would it be ok if i quoted malcolm x here and said by any means necessary nah never mind we can do this legally he s dead an i m happy no you re just a brainless f cking trogladyte go beat up some soccer fans ignorance is bliss so drool on with that stupid smile on your face when people die needlessly i hope a badger climbs up your kilt don t expect these ukies to care about this folks these bastards never did like the idea that we americans had the means to defend ourselves and wouldn t stand for tyranical governments which is why we sent them packing back to their dreary little island with their tails between their legs twice i remember what i was doing bad boy whatcha gonna do when i heard that jfk had been shot whatcha gonna do will you remember the battle of waco when they come for you ken whitehead kdw odin icd ab com
talk.politics.guns	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened in article r a ln usenet ins cwru edu aj cleveland freenet edu christopher c morton writes in a previous article spl pitstop ucsd edu steve lamont says the comsymp zog wants you to think that it is the only legitimate possessor of nuclear weapons unconstitutional you and i have just as much right to a kilogram or two of nice weapons grade plutonium as any cruddy little pointy headed liberal los alamos pinkos ah yes yet another anti semite anti gunner blunders into tpg and makes an ass of himself satire sa tir n mf or l mf fr l satura satira fr lanx satura full plate medley fr fem of satur sated akin to l satis enough more at sad a literary work holding up human vices and follies to ridicule or scorn trenchent wit irony or sarcasm used to expose and discredit vice or folly syn see wit spl steve lamont sciviguy spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource uc san diego la jolla ca my other car is a car too bumper strip seen on i
talk.politics.guns	re the dayton gun buy back re boston gun buy back excerpts from netnews talk politics guns apr the dayton gun buy back by larry cipriani cbnews cb is there something similar pro gun people can do for example pay to anyone who lawfully protects their life with a firearm sounds a bit tacky but hey whatever works pro gun people can take used pot metal guns with sale values less than and turn them in thus making a profit at the gun grabbers expense seth unlike cats dogs never scratch you when you wash them they just become very sad and try to figure out what they did wrong dave barry seth eliot dept of material science and engineering carnegie mellon univerity pittsburgh pa arpa eliot cmu edu or se andrew cmu edu bitnet se andrew cmccvb
talk.politics.guns	senate and house addresses in article c ua r dad da vinci it uswc uswest com pprun august it uswc uswe would someone please post the generic addresses for congress and senate so that we can all write letters unites states senate washington d c the house of representatives washington d c the white house washington d c seth unlike cats dogs never scratch you when you wash them they just become very sad and try to figure out what they did wrong dave barry seth eliot dept of material science and engineering carnegie mellon univerity pittsburgh pa arpa eliot cmu edu or se andrew cmu edu bitnet se andrew cmccvb
talk.politics.guns	re clinton joins list of genocidal socialist leaders in article bb f d r vmcms csuohio edu r vmcms csuohio edu writes in article r rnn rdt usenet ins cwru edu bu cleveland freenet edu brandon d ray writes in a previous article nomad ecst csuchico edu michael larish says in article r ug d btr btr com michaelh public btr com michael hahn michaelh btr com writes a partial list of excellent socialist visionaries and the tolls they ve taken of unpopular religious ethnic social groups mao tse tung millions killed j stalin millions killed a hitler millions killed pol pot s killed w j clinton killed but relax he s only had a hundred or so days you people are rather amusing in a perverse sort of way you take a tragic unpleasant situation that you feel is a terrible injustace and assign blame to anybody and everybody with or without a link to the incident simply because they don t fit your extremely narrow definition of good how is clinton responsible it was a law enforcement action granted it was a nationally covered incident but clinton had no more to do with the outcome than fred flintstone perhaps you ve been under a rock the last few days the batf and the fbi are both federal agencies clinton has admitted in front of news cameras that janet reno the once and future attorney general gave him a full briefing of what was planned before they did it and he gave her the go ahead maybe just possibly that makes him a teensy bit responsible the fbi cia batf etc are federal agencies you are correct but to think there is a visible and clear chain of command up to the prez and that these agencies inform reno who informs clinton etc is naive these agencies operate as distinct and seperate entities and while they have ultimate accountability to the prez they make their own moves and then tell the prez who says i knew all along while this may not seem right or it may not fit our idealistic need to see a structured chain of command leading to the white house thats the way it is bureaucracys are not after all composed of or people who talk on a regular basis have lunch and maybe golf together i do agree the fbi batf messed up i m not sure if they should have stormed the compound or not by the way jehova witnesses are a religious minority in this country protestantism is a minority religion in the world bds were a cult by all definitions and history of cults to say this is not to persecute a religious or ethnic enclave koresh said he was the messiah i was raised a baptist although i do not practice the religion and do not think that the big guy upstairs is digging the divisiveness closemindedness and right wing morons that are associated with the religion anyway the messiah that i was taught about would not be carrying a gun let alone stockpiling weapons you can doubt batf reports all you want david koresh was not a poor soul who was unjustly persecuted while some of the information coming from the u s government is being exagerated so as keep public opinion on their side i do believe that some of the things that former cult members have said are true anyway this is just another excuse to try and blame president clinton for something people who attempt to do this for political motives should be ashamed they are the ones who are keeping this country from reaching its full potential you seem to make two points no one ultimately oversees the federal agencies you mention and since koresh apparently has a different view point from your baptist upbringing then he is not worthy of protection from religious persecution as to being the messiah is not christ within us all must be comforting to belong to a government approved religion baptists are a cult two btw under most of the definitions in the dictionary of cult jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.politics.guns	waco willie authorizes cook out was re fbi director s statement note local tx groups trimmed out of newsgroups line in article r a a geraldo cc utexas edu d nash utexas edu donald l nash writes in article r f bp transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes no you were right the first time law enforcement agencies should keep his opinions in mind before breaking into or assaulting anybody s house ok let me correct my unfortunate choice of words i just hope that the law enforcement agencies keep your attitude in mind the next time your wife is gang raped by a bunch of juvenile drug dealing thugs while she was jogging in the park no strike that etc the batf came out with horse trailers men ninja uniforms machine guns and stun grenades and used them before koresh could even look at the warrant koresh fought back and people died the key part of this sentense is koresh fought back this was his big mistake when the police decide to exert their authority over you you don t fight back unless you want people to get hurt you cease all resistance and signal your submission to their authority the cops they are the boss you are the subject the concept of defense against illegal action under color of law is kaput no longer is it government of the people by the people its government of the people by the biggest guns the idea of sorting it out in court later is fine but one has to get to court in one piece to do that korash had good reason to think that he was not going to get that chance see below aren t in it to beat up and kill people in spite of the actions of a few bad apples if you quit resisting they quit hitting perhaps the batf did over react to the threat posed by koresh perhaps they did use too much force ok fine i m willing to concede to that point if sufficient proof is produced and i admit that there is some evidence to indicate this however resisting the batf is the worst thing koresh could have done if they hadn t resisted there is a good chance that no one would have been hurt remeber they were using stun grenades not anti personnel grenades if the bds were not in violation of any rember korash didn t get to sort this all out serenely typing at his keyboard he heard some kind of explosives go off he saw he was being attacked with no overt action from him yet he could no more say oh its ok its only stun grenades anymore than i could he slammed the door at that point and proceeded to repel the attackers he felt in genuine fear of his life i know i would be in fear of my life at that point have you ever been shot at how clear and logically could you think under that pressure when you might have all of or seconds to evaluate what is going on and it would not be the first time that law enforcements intended to bring in their suspect horizontally for all we know he was informed by someone saying something like hey guy the batf is coming like gangbusters and they mean to waste you according to the latest news the released warrant so we are told said the reason for this ww iii raid was that korash s group had spent around on firearms and related stuff over an undetermined period now even assuming that the figure isn t calculated like the feds do a drug siezure for people that isn t really all that much you priced decent guns lately hell i can think of a person right now that probably has that much for one individual mostly machineguns sure he is an avid collector but unless a new law has been passed it is not illegal nor an indication of anything illegal to have a lot of guns also note that the warrant had nothing to say about machine guns so what is the justification of this cowboy raid other than a romp gone bad for some anti gun media hype to support clinton s push for disarming the unconnected citizen of any and all effective defensive weapons this administration has only one thing in mind control people control whether it is gun control clinton cripple chip national smart id cards it all boils down to people control can you say only years late i knew you could laws they would have been released as they had been before if this had happened and it turned out that the batf had used too much force then the bds would have grounds for a law suit and for federal charges of civil rights violations sounds a lot like la huh don t take that wrong i m not commenting one way or the other about the rodney king case but that s not what they wanted they got tipped off that the batf was on the way in and rather than adopting a non violent non threatening posture to greet the batf they decided to fight and batf knew the bds were expecting them via minutes report but they decided they were so big so bad they would have a cakewalk at the bds expense for a nice media show anyway but it all turned to shit and the fbi taking over to manage things we see it all turned to shit too clinton says i am taking full responsibility bah responsibility means to take the repercussions if it goes wrong bet you nobody pays any serious repercussions responsibility only has meaning as media pr or as a means to corner the average joe schmoe figure it out clinton reno the fbi and batf will all be immune can you say whitewash i ve said enough of this issue i m probably not going to convince any of you folks and you re certainly not going to convince me i ve got work to do don be very afraid of our government in the land of the free and if you decide all this is acceptable get even more afraid especially when it is you they decide for some reason they dislike when they no longer feel the need to confine their cowboy tactics to kooks or wierdos pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
talk.politics.guns	re batf acronym b urn a ll t he f uckers
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article c sv hjy news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes in article r j n t transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article r tp em bigboote wpi edu mfrhein wpi wpi edu michael frederick rhein writes napalm then let the wood stove inside ignite it as someone else has pointed out why would the stove be in use on a warm day in texas do you eat all your food cold ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves very popular electric stoves outside metro areas especially not when the power has been cut off for weeks on end any generators are no doubt out of fuel too so all they would have is wood stoves and kerosene lanters maybe it is alleged that the tanks pushing in the walls knocked over the lanters starting the fire remember the fbi had bugs which they even used illegally to eavesdrop on private conversations with the lawyers if a suicide order were given they would have known it in time if the feds had been concerned they would have had emergency equipment ready not an hour or so later not leaving the water they turned off off they could have turned it back on they just didn t wanna scores to settle pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
talk.politics.guns	re flames on the net about flames in waco in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu scasburn magnus acs ohio state edu steven m casburn writes in article c vgme goa usenet ucs indiana edu wwarf silver ucs indiana edu wa yne j warf writes in article c v fv krt news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvin e writes if you won t believe anything the government says and the press is not reliable according to the same logic then what do you base your statements on wild speculation laced with a healthy dose of paranoia are you a moron or just illiterate oh i forgot you re the guy that doesn t know microwave oven need electricity never mind and you re the guy that doesn t know that illiterate people can t write coherent sentences does that make you superior somehow oh my god i made a typo and used the word god come burn my house down i must deserve it steve casburn scasburn magnus acs ohio state edu across the page across the ages the moving hand of history pleads for a kinder eye to see us not as we are but as we dream mark king wayne j warf wwarf ucs indiana edu i speak for myself only clinton gore cia fbi dea assassinate bomb wod bor atf irs resist nsa christian god satan apocalypse zog nazi socialist communist explosive fundamentalist revolution nsc federal reserve constitution gold fema
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch update in article larry apr peak psl nmsu edu larry peak psl nmsu edu wrote on apr yodicet gtewd mtv gtegsc com said ah yes i see a few liberal weenies have come out of the woodwork to defend the burning of the children probably drooled all over themselves while watching the tv coverage probably had a few like that in nazi germany as well oh yeah atf fbi now claims according the the media that there are a few survivors the number seems to vary minute by minute yodicet yodicet yodicet hmm you don t say no it appears he didn t well i think he s on to something here i mean the post he responded to not did pretty much speak for itself chip switzer a witty saying proves nothing t chipsw microsoft com voltaire
talk.politics.guns	re h r in article c qepl nu cbnews cb att com lvc cbnews cb att com larry cipriani writes posting the text of h r to amend title united states code to ensure that handguns are available only to persons with demonstrated knowledge and skill in their safe use maintenance and storage a an individual who is not licensed under this section may not possess a handgun on or after the date final regulations are prescribed pursuant to para graph unless the individual has been issued a handgun permit under paragraph note that this is a licensing bill pretending to be a training bill gridlock the only mechanism ever to succeed in slowing down the growth rate of big government
talk.politics.guns	re medical examiner says no evidence for bullet wounds either way dhartung chinet chi il us dan hartung writes apparently needing to clarify his comments from thursday dr nizam plawaby spelling the medical examiner for tarrant county texas who has authority in the waco deaths stated that since no autopsies had been performed there is no evidence for bullet wounds or evidence against bullet wounds janet reno also stated that she had never been told of bullet wounds by anyone in the justice department on the news from radio station kanu lawrence ks about this monday morning i heard someone with a nasal sounding voice supposedly the waco coroner claim that he had found two persons killed with a single shot to the forehead myron we preserve our freedoms using four boxes soap ballot jury and cartridge myron a calhoun phd ee assoc professor home internet mac cis ksu edu work fax uucp rutgers depot mac packet bbs w pbv k vay neks ks usa naom
talk.politics.guns	children firearm etc injury articles wanted one of our asu students needs data and or a copy or an article regarding accidents injury or death to children articles which state the age limits of children relating to firearms for a sociology report we have a copy of the long edgar a suter m d article and but we can t find the paul blackman nra expose any articles or sections thereof which deal with comparisons over time locations age groups other reasons for accidents injury or death with percentages would be welcome please send same to our i d and node thanks in advance tom crise
talk.politics.guns	re gun buy back in article bb b r vmcms csuohio edu r vmcms csuohio edu writes in article apr rti rti org jbs rti rti org writes in article bb ba a r vmcms csuohio edu r vmcms csuohio edu writes gun buyback programs will hopefully have an impact on accidental shootings especially youths domestic disputes where a gun is available in the heat of emotion and anger and maybe keep a few guns from being stolen and later used in street level crime what gives you the idea that gun buyback programs will have an impact on any of these things evidence please please don t misinterret what i was saying joe i was making the point tha there is no evidence of effect of gun buyback programs but hopefully if there is any effect it may prevent injuries or deaths in one of these types of common incidents if you re a research associate in urban child research then perhaps you can comment for us on the ratio of the accidental gun death rate to the rate of accidental death from other single causes follow that perhaps with some sort of justification for the amount of effort that anti gunners spend trying to convince the country that accidental gun related death among children in the u s is a serious problem firearms are the fifth leading cause of unintentional deaths among children ages and under i don t understand how the ratio to other accidental deaths is important so guns don t kill as many children as car accidents what is the difference in severity between deaths and deaths i am not trying to use accidental gun related deaths among children as a justification for gun control who needs to be convinced that accidental gun deaths of children is a serious problem i assumed that any humane person would be concerned when any year old got hold of their parents gun from their bedroom drawer and accidently blew away one of their friends any death is serious wanna discuss match control firearms related unintentional deaths among children ages and under are the fault of one or more negligent persons not the gun more than anything gun buyback programs are symbolic offerings to the community in that sense i think they might do a little good please explain why you think symbolic offerings do good my point was gun buyback programs which are almost always run by police departments might i stress might do a little i stress little good by giving people the impression that the police are attempting to respond to interpersonal gun violence in a unique way overall i thought that i had made it clear that i did not think that gun buyback programs were useful providing false hope then is the intent i do know that the vast majority of guns that are used by youths or brought to school by youths on a daily basis about youths are obtained easily and quickly through a personal friend or more often borrowed from a parent without their knowledge i suggest you go back and look at wherever you saw these statistics i suspect you ll find if you look carefully that is the number of students estimated to have carried a weapon not necessarily a gun to school at least once in the past year and not the number of students who carry a gun to school daily well joe i suggest that you talk to the center to prevent handgun violence or the centers for disease control if you look carefully you will see that you greatly underestimate the presence of guns in the lives of youths the cphv reports that youth bring guns to school daily and that bring guns to school at least once a year the cdc estimates that out f high school students carried a gun to school at least once in the cdc also says that million elementary aged latch key children kids who come home from school to an empty house have access to guns in their home california schools reported a increase in student gun confiscations between and and a increase between and florida reported a percent increase in gun incidents in schools between amd these are the statistics increase in california schools eh gun control is working fine there thus willing to follow a man who claimed to be the messiah got news for you folks if the big cheese was on this crazy planet of ours presently he would not be carrying a gun or holding children when they were in danger holding kids time for a reality check son these kids were the children of the people inside who believed that the forces of evil were outside waiting to kill them would you send your children out the door if you believed as they did okay maybe i worded it wrong dad i meant that to put children in a situation fortified compound where harm could come to them is not the act of a messiah in my opinion i m not saying that koresh had control over these children directly but i would hope that whatever messiah there is would not let innocent children die if as he claimed he was the messiah and people followed him as such why did he not tell their parents to free the children instead of letting them burn alive thanks for the reality check joe its been real so your religion is different does that make it his wrong even assuming koresh actually made that decision and the verdict is still out on that rodney jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.politics.guns	re bd s did themselves you re all paranoid freaks in article apr starbase trincoll edu writes freed om of religion has absolutely nothing to do with building a small arsenal and grooming year old children to be your wife i ll come out as soon as i finish my manuscript on the seven seals oh ok david i agree that koresh was as much of a victim as a perpetrator this because he grew up inside the cult and engaged in a power struggle where his supporters helped inflate his ego that doesn t change the fact that he was a loose fucking cannon with a shitload of serious weapons or that he was banging thirteen year olds and twisting their impressionable little minds this was no move fuck up a helicoptor was thermal imaging the compound that afternoon and detected three fires erupting almost simultaneously there were no cs canisters a specially modified abrams was pupming the stuff in no chance of starting a fire there kerosene lamps maybe one but not three fires no way koresh wasn t just talking out of his ass i expected this to happen maybe they wanted it to look like murder he had days i think this was coming the whole time he didn t even put the children in the buried bus or the underground bunker during the cs seige he put them up into the tower to die fuck all of you big brother paranoid freaks the only good thing to come of any of this is that there will be one less group of crazoids to attract some of the more rootless members of our society joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu i have not made up my mind about waco but there sure seems to be a group of devoted government following fanatics willing to believe whatever that government wants to tell them without any shred of doubt nor thought of thier own they sure get shrill whenever their belief structure is being shaken kinda reminds you of the bds doesn t it jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.politics.guns	re nature of the waco gas cash convex com peter cash writes in article r inndlu cronkite central sun com dbernard clesun central sun com writes the reason given was that the use causes extreme nausea blindness disorientation total irrationality raging paranoia children would be all the more susceptible and show the results all the earlier if we are indeed talking about cs then this is not quite accurate cs is just tear gas albeit the worst kind it isn t a nausea gas and doesn t have direct cns effects however it s quite bad much worse than cn gas i has anyone publically considered the possibility that the fires were set for defence instead of suicide and the destruction and confusion caused by the tanks and gas caused things to get out of the bds control spending programs are now investments taxes are contributions and these are the same people who say i need a dictionary dan quayle my employer is not responsible for anything that may appear above
talk.politics.guns	cult practices of the fbi broadcasting amplified sounds of tortured rabbits burning alive men women and children we have on our hands here some truly sick puppies jim hart jhart agora rain com arlen specter for president in
talk.politics.guns	re ammo in a fire was re waco burning bressler iftccu ca boeing com rick bressler writes small arms rounds set off outside of a firearm pose little risk except possibly eye injuries and minor wounds true large concentrations of ammo or magazines not the type you insert into your semi auto probably pose a larger risk but mostly from heat and flame this is also covered in the above reference no more risk than smaller stashes unless the stash is somehow confined so the heat from early ignitions could somehow bulk heat the remainder two years ago this month my house and office burned in my office was my reloading bench on the top shelf next to the wooden ceiling was about lbs of smokeless powder lbs of black powder several thousand primers and a couple thousand loaded rounds primarily in acp and the fire was extinguished before the area containing the reloading supplies were fully involved there was about of char on the joists subsequently removed by sandblasting lots of heat in other words none of the powder kegs ignited one lb can of pistol powder ignited no explosion as the can opened at the seam as it was designed to do the black powder cans were charred and got so hot the plastic lids completely melted and ran down inside the smokless powder was contained mostly in lb cardboard or metal kegs the kegs were charred badly enough that the paper labels burned completely off and in the case of the metal cans the plastic lids melted completely away many of the rounds cooked off they were in close proximity to wood on all sides so the effects were easy to observe in most cases with the rifle ammo the cartridge cases ruptured in the middle many bullets were found still in the neck small shards of brass were lightly stuck into the wood lightly enough that brushing them with a fingertip would usually dislodge them primers generally popped out of the primer pockets the acp rounds that cooked off left empty cases and bullets laying around no dents were observed above the storage area indicating the bullets left the cases slowly enough not to be a hazard ordinary small arms ammo is not a hazard when cooking off regardless of what the fbi says john john de armond wd oqc interested in high performance mobility performance engineering magazine tm interested in high tech and computers marietta ga send ur snail mail address to jgd dixie com perform dixie com for a free sample mag lee harvey oswald where are ya when we need ya
talk.politics.guns	re the truth about waco dhartung chinet chi il us dan hartung writes massive dan blather mercifully deleted his last sentence says it all who the hell are we or the government to judge their religion as wrong this event i hope will be recorded in history as the american holocaust these people were murdered by the us government just as surely as the jews were by the nazis i hang my head in shame for what i ve allowed my government to become i have never judged them by their religion but by their actions if they had lived a quiet religious life as they claimed there would have been no raid no siege and no deaths instead they chose courses of action at every turn that were at the very least stupid if not irrational the first was to stockpile weapons the second was to shoot federal agents the third was to stay inside last time i checked amassing an arsenal and practicing any kind of religion were mentioned in passing in the bill of rights guess it s ok with you if we just brush em aside in order to justify killing a bunch of religious nutcakes eh of all the idiots i run into in daily life dan your type scare me the most you ll accept expediency and a coward s safety over any belief just as long as the government tells you to you assume that anyone who doesn t comform to your beliefs and ways of thinking are wrong and therefore bad worse you seem to accept without question what the government says is wrong to be wrong david koresh s religion was not mine but then again neither are the baptists methodists catholics or any of the rest of the corporate religions but even though koresh s the baptists the methodists etc don t believe the same way i do i recognize that their religions are equally valid to mine and more importantly are equally protected under the st amendment you see i m not that much different than koresh and i suspect many others fit the same catagory i read the bible many times and as i learned from it i discovered that a lot of what corporate religions practice just isn t justified by my interpretation of the bible therefore i go my own way so did koresh and neither you nor i nor anyone else either individually or collectively as the great socialist we has any right whatsoever to tell me or you or koresh that our religions are wrong you seem to think that it would have been oh so easy for the davidians to just forsake everything they believed in and walk out of their compound in order to save themselves think if you re capable for a moment about some belief you hold dearest would you abandon that belief if suddenly told to do so by the government if you would do so you are beneath contempt let s assume you have a belief that you hold dear enough to commit your life to do you think it would be the correct course of action for your government to initiate actions specifically designed to force you to make that forsake or die decision the forsake or die option is exactly what the government forced on the davidians the day the first wave of black clad stormtroopers fired that first shot and tossed that first grenade the fbi clenched it on day when they sent in heavy armor against some odd men women and children holed up in a rickety old building and armed with small arms the people who stayed who held to their beliefs over personal safety whose individual personal honors demanded they die rather than submit who believed that the bill of rights meant exactly what it says to those people go my deepest respect regardless of their religion people like you who blithely blow off the murder of people with well they could have come out get my most scornful contempt i d spit in your face were there not a network between us you re not worth the ashes of those people who burned john john de armond wd oqc interested in high performance mobility performance engineering magazine tm interested in high tech and computers marietta ga send ur snail mail address to jgd dixie com perform dixie com for a free sample mag lee harvey oswald where are ya when we need ya
talk.politics.guns	re who s next mormons and jews in article dazixco ingr com crphilli hound dazixca ingr com ron phillips writes in article c s n dyj world std com rjk world std com robert j kolker writes thank you for remembering matzada matzada was not an insane act it was a sanctification of g d s name and the most extreme denial of tyranny possible to this day the officers of the tzahal isreal defense force take their oath at the fortress lo tepol shaynit matzadah matzadah will not fall again not anymore recent archaeological inspection of the site presents pretty compelling evidence that the mass suicide at masada never occured this evidence was so compelling tha the tzahal no long hold their secret ceremony at the fortress ron phillips crphilli hound dazixca ingr com senior customer engineer intergraph electronics east evelyn avenue voice mountain view ca fax first i ve heard of this could yo please elaborate a little
talk.politics.guns	re waco clinton press conference part in article rpp jfh rpp john f haugh ii writes in article blake nevada edu blake nevada edu rawlin blake writes i was hoping that kent state taught us a lesson apparently not apparently the government will murder anyone they choose to still that s right despite claims that someone at kent state fire a shotgun at the the soldiers the only projectiles that anyone can prove where sent in the direction of the soldiers were rocks john f haugh ii pgp s cs utexas edu rpp jfh ma bell dof s jfh rpp cactus org no firearms were ever ever shot at the national guard at kent state at the time of the shooting no rocks were being thrown at all the squad was slowly proceeding up a knoll away from the body of students some students were taunting them and photographs of the incident show at most one or two students who were following and taunting the series of photographs show the squad slowly proceeding up the hill while occasionally their nco in hand turned back to look at where they came from all at once as if on command the entire squad turned and fired their m garands firing rounds into the crowd the nco can be shown with this at full recoil at least two of the students shot had nothing to do with the taunters they were only passing through and were not participants in the confrontation there is some dispute whether the guard was even legally on campus apparently they had not been invited onto the state school by the president who had conveniently flown the coop so as not to be around the governor of ohio james rhodes had just embarked on a senate campaign and wanted it to be known that he was tough on peaceniks so had ordered the guard in the matter was quickly covered up some years later wounded survivors launched a civil lawsuit against those responsible a settlement was made and under the terms the plaintiffs could not discuss much and guilty individuals were not identified in fact those shooters in the squad have been identified it was a tragic incident but it was not provoked by the students or apparently by general delcorso or any of his command from studying the incident the photos imo it looks like it was an independent action by a small squad of soldiers
talk.politics.guns	re blast them next time from article r l dv usenet ins cwru edu by oldham ces cwru edu daniel oldham what happened in waco is not the fault of the batf if they would of had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the compound on the initial assault and none of this would of happened they did have the proper equipment the problem is that they went about things the wrong way the atf should have served the warrant in a peacable manner instead of going in there like a bunch of rambos with guns blazing i m not trying to excuse what david koresh did i m just saying that the atf henceforth to be known as the cigarette cops went about the raid in an improper manner the batf needs more people better weapons and more armored transports when they meet hostile fire they should be able to use more force instead of retreating to a stand off if you are going to do a job then do it right the batf is there to protect us and they must have the proper equipment and people to do the job let the fbi customs and local police officers do the atf s job we don t need them anymore the cigarette cops are just leftovers from prohibition days they are an anachronism with the wod and the increased crime in the streets the batf is needed more now then ever if they blast away a few good fokes then that is the price we all have to pay for law and order in this country look at all the good people that died in wars to protect this great country of ours including you what if the cigarette cops kicked down your door and cut you in half with a machine gun this could actually happen maybe they get the wrong address and then raid your home for example it s happened before and it can happen again i have heard of more than one instance of a no knock raid going sour just recently i heard about a case in which police raided this guy s home because they thought he had dope or something the guy blew both of the officers away and he didn t go to jail for it the judge hearing the case ruled that the man was acting in self defense with the arms build up in waco they needed to hit that compound with mega fire power they could of gone in there blasting and killed a few women and kids but it would of been better then letting them all burn to death days later are you sure that that would have been the way to go surely the fbi and atf could have handled this fiasco better they didn t have to massacre all those people as stimpy said in fake dad shame shame double shame the fbi and atf should be ashamed of theirselves scott kennedy brewer and patriot before david koresh is a cheap thug who interprets the bible through the barrel of a gun atf spokesman after the atf is a cheap thug who interprets the constitution through the barrel of a gun me
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi revenge from article hydra gatech edu by gs prism gatech edu glenn r stone in rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes anybody for impeachment yeah me both the slickmeister and hillary s buddy janet say they re responsible i want both their resignations on my desk yesterday i also want both thier butts up on federal civil rights violations something which carries life in prison as a penalty oh and i ll contribute to arlen specter s presidential campaign for having the nads to launch the senate investigation i second that motion wholeheartedly also how about s tcanning the cigarette cops a k a as the atf comments anyone glenn r stone glenns eas gatech edu america in distress flag upside down sos save your republic before it no longer exists scott kennedy brewer and patriot before david koresh is a cheap thug who interprets the bible through the barrel of a gun atf spokesman after the atf is a cheap thug who interprets the constitution through the barrel of a gun me
talk.politics.guns	re what to do if you shoot somebody be as cooperative with the police as possible show them where you were repeat your information as often as requested they will often ask you the same questions over and over to verify facts and unfortunately to see if your lying fill out all statements and show all required identification and weapon permits booo down with registered citizens register your politicians as deadly tax weapons needing to be confiscated if they are required in your state contact a lawyer immediately if they decide to this would have to be a call you are not required to say anything until you have a lawyer present and not saying anything until such time is not to be construed as derogatory to your cause anything you do say can later be used against you you will be talking to the police the same people who will be gathering evidence for the prosecutor to use against you
talk.politics.guns	re denver post yanks assault ads in article rco qinn q dns nmsu edu loki acca nmsu edu entropic destroyer writes the denver post supposed voice of the supposed rocky mountain empire ran the following in the firearms supplies classified heading on friday april if you have an opinion about their new found wisdom i am told that the person to speak with is one mr walters notice the denver post will no longer knowingly accept any advertise ment to buy or sell assault weap ons the denver post finds that the use of assault weapons poses a threat to the health safety and security of its readers let em know what you think dan spooksmoke revolution assasination thorium cobalt clintin cia nsa shc dod loki acca nmsu edu liberty or death taylordf ucsu colorado edu send me something even you can t read i ve seen lots of notes like these in various newspaper classified sections but then under hunting or sporting goods or outdoor or collector s classifications you see things like colt ar hunting rifle or galil sporting arm stuff like that the newspaper gets to make its editorial statement plus they get the revenue anyway
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors jdurbin nl oracle com jason durbin writes if even half the speculations of conspiracy made about this are true then i would expect that you people should be calling for the atf fbi texas rangers congress and all branches of the us government to be immediately and completey disbanded no exceptions jeez do you people really beleive all this crap do you also beleive in the zionist occupation government and the tooth fairy jason i ve heard the people who are talking about this dismissed as conspiracy nuts but nobody seems to be talking about a conspiracy at least at the beginning there were a lot of bad decisions that went into this tragedy and some people may now be taking some serious evasive action to avoid being held responsible for the unexpected results of those bad decisions actually the only ones i see that are tied into a conspiracy theory are the ones raving about deranged cultists with stockpiles of weapons and suicide pacts admittedly mistakes were made but why attribute them to malice rather than stupidity i think there are a lot of us that have been following this pretty closely from the beginning and we woud probably agree that this tragedy was more the result of stupidity than malice jason durbin oracle europe
talk.politics.guns	re who s next mormons and jews from article r mhtinna cronkite central sun com by dbernard clesun central sun com dave bernard does that include the right to murder little children how about killing atf officers i do not know much about the gun laws in texas but koresh s folks claimed to have grenades grenade launchers and rocket launchers i am not sure that the nra feels that this falls under right to bear arms if the waco wackos truly had grenade launchers and rocket launchers why weren t they used against the armored vehicles that attacked their house all the media stated was that small arms ie ineffective fire was used against them i noticed that too special agent asshole actually ricks stated that david koresh had explosives that could blow up an armored vehicle feet into the air it looked like to me that the bds had plenty of opportunity to use these explosives provided that they had them in the first place for example when one of the tanks was injecting cs gas into the ranch house yes ranch house the bds weren t living in a fortress they could have easily destroyed or disabled that tank because it was idling there for a considerable length of time so why didn t they do this could it be that they didn t have any explosives or similar munitions i just don t buy what the atf and fbi have been saying hopefully the truth will come out here s something noteworthy after the fire had been burning for some time an explosion occurred just one explosion the media said that this was some of the explosives that the bds posessed going off i don t think this was the case my brother and i noticed that this so called explosion resembled a plume of propane gas being ignited we figure that this is what it was because of how the explosion looked and sounded obviously it wasn t due to something like tnt dynamite or c i have seen a propane explosion before the explosion in the ranch house greatly resembled this also i noticed something that looked like a propane tank in the charred ruble the next day isn t it curious that the atf wasn t very forthcoming about how the four officers got killed many weeks had gone by before they stated that some of the officers had been killed and or wounded by grenades thrown by the bds earlier when someone asked one of the spokespersons about whether or not an autopsy had been performed on the slain agents they said that an autopsy had been done but they weren t ready to release the findings now why is this does the atf have something to hide perhaps those four agents were killed by friendly fire what is the cause of death exactly no one has ever said what it is what is certain is this atf agents did throw grenades into the compound as a matter of fact mr koresh handed his lawyer a grenade body during one of the lawyer s visits to the compound later on the lawyer gave the grenade body i don t know if it was a dud or a spent one btw to the atf how much do you want to bet that this grenade will mysteriously disappear at this point in time the only people we know who had grenades was the atf agents wouldn t it be a shocker if the no one ever found any evidence of grenades rockets or explosives in the rubble the atf would sure have egg on their face then note that the atf is doing the initial sweep of the rubble the fbi and the texas rangers won t investigate until the atf is done this looks like a perfect opportunity for the atf to make sure that others find what they want for them to find if you know what i mean i m probably being a little paranoid here but if i am i have could reason to be recall that several weeks had gone by before anyone said that the bds had used grenades also recall that early on the atf had denied that their agents used grenades on the bds someone is lying here scott kennedy brewer and patriot before david koresh is a cheap thug who interprets the bible through the barrel of a gun atf spokesman after the atf is a cheap thug who interprets the constitution through the barrel of a gun me
talk.politics.guns	texas hb voting is today i just called texas legislative bill tracking service and found out that hb concealed carry is scheduled for a floor vote today let those phone calls roll in daryl daryl biberdorf n gjm d biberdorf tamu edu sola gratia sola fide sola scriptura
talk.politics.guns	re bd s did themselves you re all paranoid freaks in article apr starbase trincoll edu writes freed om of religion has absolutely nothing to do with building a small arsenal and grooming year old children to be your wife i ll come out as soon as i finish my manuscript on the seven seals oh ok david i agree that koresh was as much of a victim as a perpetrator this because he grew up inside the cult and engaged in a power struggle where his supporters helped inflate his ego that doesn t change the fact that he was a loose fucking cannon with a shitload of serious weapons or that he was banging thirteen year olds and twisting their impressionable little minds this was no move fuck up a helicoptor was thermal imaging the compound that afternoon and detected three fires erupting almost simultaneously there were no cs canisters a specially modified abrams was pupming the stuff in no chance of starting a fire there kerosene lamps maybe one but not three fires no way koresh wasn t just talking out of his ass i expected this to happen maybe they wanted it to look like murder he had days i think this was coming the whole time he didn t even put the children in the buried bus or the underground bunker during the cs seige he put them up into the tower to die fuck all of you big brother paranoid freaks the only good thing to come of any of this is that there will be one less group of crazoids to attract some of the more rootless members of our society i d have to agree with you there joe rodney thomas
talk.politics.guns	ma senate bills help two urgent requests i need the latest update and description of ma bill s from what i gather this bill takes the hunter safety courses from law enforcement and places them under fish game control has someone out there compiled a list of all ma senate house bills under consideration if they have please e mail me the list if not is there a database i can access thanx yours in the fight mike p p s my wife and i thought nancy b was great on street stories mike procanik mjp gte com i m the nra gte laboratories incorporated sylvan road waltham ma
talk.politics.guns	re texas hb voting is today in article rgolainnqjf tamsun tamu edu dlb tamuts tamu edu daryl biberdorf writes i just called texas legislative bill tracking service and found out that hb concealed carry is scheduled for a floor vote today let those phone calls roll in well i don t normally like to quote myself but i just got some additional information i called my state rep to express my support and the person there informed me that it s actually just a second reading of the bill three are required for further consideration i m not sure what that means and i m also not sure why there s a discrepancy between what the two offices are telling me still researching daryl daryl biberdorf n gjm d biberdorf tamu edu sola gratia sola fide sola scriptura
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in a previous article rats cbnewsc cb att com morris the cat says this is about the third person who s parroted the fbi s line about the fires being set six hours after the tear gas was injected suppose you how would the fed snipers have been able to witness the bds setting the fire as is claimed through all that tear gas i actually heard one report which claimed that infrared cameras saw the branch dividians setting the fires now you ll have to excuse yeah sure maybe thermal gunsights on the armored vehicles when discussing military hardware and weapons the media generally looks like a ufology convention my scepticism but i find it quite strange that anyone would be operating a thermal viewer during a daytime battle it would be unusual in the sense that the federales combat operation gassing the bd with cs whatever that is is this the infamous bz hallucination gas from cs is merely the garden variety military teargas as far as it being humane and harmless i ve seen teenage boys knock lb drill sergeants flat getting away from it i am pretty sure that newly born religious groups will study these fbi tactics and build anti armor barricades and tank traps to make next time a lot bloodier for the federales what do you expect when idiots and criminals confirm paranoids in their paranoia if you were smarter you d have these opinions
talk.politics.guns	denver post classifieds no assault weapons i came across the following notice in the denver post classified secction this morning april begin quote notice the denver post will no longer knowingly accept any advertisement to buy or sell assault weapons the denver post finds that the use of assault weapons poses a threat to the health safety and security of its readers end quote now i suppose the post is within its rights to refuse such ads however the second sentence is so noxious i feel compelled to bring it to the attention of the t p g c g readership i called the post classified number and expressed my displeasure according to the supervisor i spoke to the post was reacting to public complaints regarding the running of assult weapon ads however she said the paper was keeping track of the reaction to the change in policy i strongly encourage denver post readers to call and make their feelings known eric e snyder department of mcd biology making feet for childrens shoes university of colorado boulder boulder colorado
talk.politics.guns	re bd s did themselves you re all paranoid freaks this was no move fuck up a helicoptor was thermal imaging the compound that afternoon and detected three fires erupting almost simultaneously did anyone notice any helicopters equipped with thermal imaging equipment they usually manifest themselves in a turret in the front of the helo or a sphere on top of the rotor with optical elements i didn t notice any uh s or other helos equipped as such did they use handheld military thermal scanners if so there is no recording capability and hence the credibility of the report is subject to human error
talk.politics.guns	re waco burning in article c v du d acsu buffalo edu v qheg ubvmsd cc buffalo edu p vasilion writes not necessarily if the body had been denatured cooked or dehydrated due to the heat a projectile needs only a minimal kinetic force to penetrate in fire aftermaths bodies tend to fall apart or loose large chunks of meat with little effort medical examiners tend not to like cleaning up such scenes as such if the body had been suitably cooked a bullet comming from a magazine explosion would more than likely have enough force to enter and thus it would be difficult to determine whether a bullet entered at the time of death or much later unless you were trained to look for the evidence texas rangers are not pathologists p vasilion this is quite corect but a bullet hitting a burned body with little energy will show virtually no deformation ie a hollow point probably would not expand an fmj would be pristene also the bullets will not be marked with the lands ang grooves of a barrel because they didn t come out of one a good pathologist should be able to notice this right away let us hope that the me s that handle these bodies are more competent then the ones who did jfk s body jag
talk.politics.guns	re nature of the waco gas in a previous article dbernard clesun central sun com dave bernard says just heard on the network radio news a spokesman from the army saying that the type of cs gas used in waco had been banned from military use its use is also banned by a draft international agreement on the use of chemical weapons in warfare the reason given was that the use causes extreme nausea blindness disorientation total irrationality raging paranoia i don t know about the paranoia and irrationality but the rest is pretty close all though you left out the inability to breath of course you can make a claim that people will do some fairly deranged things to get away from it i ve seen teenagers flatten lb drill sergeants to get out of tents full of it which raises another issue children would be all the more susceptible and show the results all the earlier this is the stuff janet reno was told would be safe for children what they didn t mention is that in the open it probably wouldn t do too much harm to children although i wouldn t use it in close proximity to infants on the other hand in confined spaces the effects are greatly intensified to the point of lethality since a sufficient quantity of cs will displace oxygen when running a cs chamber careful attention is paid to ventilation i wonder if they checked to see if any of the bds were asthmatics or suffered from other respiratory diseases i doubt it if you were smarter you d have these opinions
talk.politics.guns	two questions i d appreciate any help anyone could give me on these two questions the brady bill was in the news throughout but what actually happened to it in congress did bush veto it if so when also the state of virginia i believe just passed a gun control bill on febrauary of this year i think it limits gun purchases to one a month is this correct what was the bill number anyone
talk.politics.guns	batf fbi do right thing in waco everyone is complaining about the debacle in waco it is hard to understand all this angst what happend there is nothing less than what we wanted to happen why all the sour grapes batf was looking for a propaganda event to counteract their impending budget cuts the attendance of the press at the initial big commando raid is proof it would have been ever so easier to grab koresh and his central followers as they shopped in waco alas no propaganda value there the fbi screwed up big time all the time they should have never allowed the situation to drag out like that a quick second assault before the bds could decide on a strategy would have been the better plan the bds themselves were the biggest screw ups though they imagined that us law and us law enforcement had no jurisdiction within their little country wrong they had no right whatsoever to fire on the batf and if they mistook their identity initially they should have surrendered at once when they did realize who they were if the bds had a problem with the warrants they take it to court just like the rest of us if they wanted full auto weapons they could have obtained the proper permits just like the rest of us would need to do what they may not do is decide for themselves what us law applies to themselves and which does not they get their chance like the rest of us at the voting booth if the batf and fbi have become latter day gestapo then they have become that way because we have desired them to be so we get to vote on laws and on the lawmakers by our choices over the years we have approved the creation and form of the batf and fbi when the fbi was out chasing pinkos the general public didn t seem to mind a bit of extra constitutional activity when the batf is raiding militant black organizations we don t mind the heavy hand when the fbi is dicking around with the rights of potheads the public doesn t mind suddenly when we see a bit of ourselves in the current enemy choosen by these agencies we get all bent out of shape suprise you reap what you sow waco was an encapsulation of the all american experience religious fanaticism militaristic thinking and overwhelming violence don t blame it on them the fbi and batf they were just acting within the parameters we have set over the years we made them we are them jim mason
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi revenge in article rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes i am sick dismayed discouraged and ashamed of our administration it looks like the us now has their own little tienamen square the fbi is portraying korash as a psychopath doing a deliberate mass suicide etc possibly possibly not i don t believe that the tear gas used god bless america land of the free past tense well maybe i am overreacting but i see on the tv as i am typing where govt spoksewoman the new attorney general known to be almost rabid about private ownership of guns wants to ban assault guns and just about everything else is saying the fbi had amazing restraint then falls back into the official goverenment line about how the bd were guity of child abuse and were into it in an on going basis and so on am i having a vain hope that an honest investigation will occur on this thing or will it simply be whitewashed under the rug and business as usual will continue to be the order of the day in the new order who will be given the official title of thought police i wonder what a load of crap the bds had absolutely no right to fire upon the batf agents if they didn t know who they were at first then they should have surrendered immediately when they did realize who they were dealing with little groups of loonies do not get to decide just what laws they will obey or disobey or what sorts of warrants are justified like the rest of us they get their say at the voting booth and if their personal wants are not backed by the majority of voters then too bad if they wanted to keep automatic weapons then they could apply for the proper permits if they had a problem with the warrant then they get to argue that in court in no event do they get to establish their own little nation inside our own and pretend that our laws and law enforcement personel have no jurisdiction within their borders you live on us territory you live by us laws period unless you are a congressman sure the situation was handled badly by both the batf and the fbi it would have been all so easy to detain koresh and his core members while they were out in the streets of waco the batf threatened with budget cuts was trying for a propaganda coup and dragging the press along for the big commando style assault is proof of that they should be roasted for both their imcompetance and their mindset on the other hand they did have the legal right to do what they did once the attack was begun they should have pressed on and finished it rather than let an interminable situation like that take root the fbi also used poor judgement in a number of ways but again the laws we voters have approved or the lawmakers who created them gave them the right to do what they did if batf and the fbi are latter day gestapo it is because the voters have allowed them to become that way waco was pure americana militarist mentality religious fanaticism and unadulterated violence all rolled into one experience we get what we pay for or vote for and this was the result of many choices we have made over the years don t blame them blame ourselves we made them we are them
talk.politics.guns	re arlen specter s address in article apr icd ab com kdw icd ab com kenneth d whitehead writes anybody got arlen spectre s address i want to write to him and thank him for showing the leadership to demand a congressional investigation into the waco mess ken you are talking about the man who as a federal attorney did so much to frustrate the proper investigation of the jfk assassination by the house sub committee on assassinations fox and hen house joe gaut in the super state it really does not f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu matter at all what actually happened remember the alamo truth is what the government chooses to remember waco tell you justice is what it wants to happen jim garrison new orleans la
talk.politics.guns	re h r in article c qeqv px cbnews cb att com lvc cbnews cb att com larry cipriani writes posting the text of h r s a it shall be unlawful for any person to pos sess an assault weapon unless the weapon was lawfully page break and continuously possessed by the person since before the date of the enactment of this subsection ob ill wind and all that with bill the prez in there at least the anti gunners are out of the closet the provision that any existing so called assault weapons die with their current owners was worked into h r nd congress bill number a couple of years ago in a complicated way that the anti s claimed was a drafting error can t call em lying bastards any longer not all the time gridlock the only mechanism ever to succeed in slowing down the growth rate of big government
talk.politics.guns	re clinton joins list of genocidal socialist leaders snip draughn iitmax iit edu mark draughn writes the president is not competent to plan or judge the planning of such a raid nor does he need to be his job is to set basic policies and manage the people under him if clinton instructed reno to preserve lives and if she confirmed that the plan for the raid was a safe as could be then he did his job the president should not involve himself in the minor details of these kinds of operations this sort of micromanagement only leads to disaster as was demonstrated so well in vietnam but the raid went bad over civilians have been killed in a controntation with u s authorities now clinton enters the picture in a big way will clinton start an investigation or will he try to squash any attempt to investigate is he a responsible leader or is he only interested in protecting the image of his administration we ll all find out as this unfolds excellent point mark we should all remember that if nixon hadn t tried to cover up the misguided actions of some of his subordinates in the watergate burglary the scandal would never have brought down his presidency so far klinton seems to be stonewalling this the same way tricky dick did his whole case seems to be we didn t do anything wrong however if in the course of the investigation it turns out that the gov t did do something wrong and he tried to cover it up then that s an impeachable crime i believe perhaps he is inadvertently cooking up his own scandal can you say wacogate little neighbor ya know this being part of the loyal opposition is kinda fun for a change i sure am glad i get to bitch about clinton rather than having to be one of those poor saps stuck trying to defend him i wonder how michael kinsley likes being part of the establishment ken whitehead kdw odin icd ab com
talk.politics.guns	re waco burning in article blue cis pitt edu jagst pitt edu josh a grossman writes in article c v du d acsu buffalo edu v qheg ubvmsd cc buffalo edu p vasilion writes not necessarily if the body had been denatured cooked or dehydrated due to the heat a projectile needs only a minimal kinetic force to penetrate in fire aftermaths bodies tend to fall apart or loose large chunks of meat with little effort medical examiners tend not to like cleaning up such scenes as such if the body had been suitably cooked a bullet comming from a magazine explosion would more than likely have enough force to enter and thus it would be difficult to determine whether a bullet entered at the time of death or much later unless you were trained to look for the evidence texas rangers are not pathologists p vasilion this is quite corect but a bullet hitting a burned body with little energy will show virtually no deformation ie a hollow point probably would not expand an fmj would be pristene also the bullets will not be marked with the lands ang grooves of a barrel because they didn t come out of one a good pathologist should be able to notice this right away let us hope that the me s that handle these bodies are more competent then the ones who did jfk s body jag speaking of me s the fbi said the fire victims were found face up fire victims apparently are usually found face down suggesting they died prior to the fire the me says in a word bullshit the victims were face down the fbi says they sent a body of a victim that was shot supposedly by bd guards the me says in a word bullshit the body showed no evidence of gunshot wounds can the atf fbi tell the difference between cya and truth wayne j warf wwarf ucs indiana edu i speak for myself only clinton gore cia fbi dea assassinate bomb wod bor atf irs resist nsa christian god satan apocalypse zog nazi socialist communist explosive fundamentalist revolution nsc federal reserve constitution gold fema
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in article apr csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu andy freeman says many lines deleted subject it is kind of funny though how you were the only one who picked up the part about my sister being a social worker and keeping me up to date on e th gang thing everyone else seemed to just skim by that part actually those of us who have experience with social workers pointedly ignored it ah here freeman is being prejudiced look it up and see what i mean freeman here freeman is pre judging someone before he knows all of the facts guess it can happen to the best and in his case the worst of us quit while you re behind andy freeman thinks i am behind when actually i am quite on top of things the point he seems to be missing now is that after a certain point accuracy can be very tedious and ridiculous see freeman s next post for an explanation jason u uicvm cc uic edu
talk.politics.guns	re some more about gun control in article apr mtu edu cescript mtu edu charles scripter writes in article c bu m k ulowell ulowell edu jrutledg cs ulowell edu john lawrence rutledge wrote in article q tpinnpcn gap caltech edu arc cco caltech edu aaron ray clements writes the second amendment is a guarantee of the right to bear arms clearly and unequivocally without infringement i saw this nifty drawn out posting and i thought i might give the two of you a little help with your problem as you both know what you posted and this foolish thing gave me so much shit last time i tried to post i took the liberty of deleting all but the header and a single quote i hope you don t mind as written the second ammendment states rather clearly for anyone who can read the following a well regulated militia being necessarry to the security of a free state the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed what is regulated regulated means controlled how about security well hey that would be along the lines of being and feeling safe wouldn t it wow we have a concept forming here don t we now what have we left the right of the people people people people people people people sorry got kinda hungup there shall not be infringed oops backup there hmmm infringed that d be like interfered with altered changed or watered down in any way shape or form so what we have here in it s big old long winded version would be a well controlled militia being necessary to the secure safe feeling of state the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be fucked with in any way shape or form by some happy ass good for nothing in some piddly government building who wants to run my life in the pursuit of his happiness the item is clear and concise in it s present form my young friend it does not need my clarification or that of any other this is only ammendment which guarantees the continued existence of the others it s whole purpose is to give people recourse against the military machine of a government which fails to properly represent it s creators us james madison federalist paper regarding the general welfare clause nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars any replies or comments can be sent too kane djh rigel tamu edu no representative government need fear it s armed citizens death to tyrants the only thing we have to fear is me
talk.politics.guns	re your evil tax dollars at work was re atf burns ranch etc etc in article mbs psuvm psu edu mark mark sachs mbs psuvm psu edu writes in article mgb slacvm slac stanford edu mgb slacvm slac stanford edu says from a p according to numerous accounts by those in the compound the fire was started by an armoured vehicle crushing a large propane tank and turning over numerous gas lanterns oh then why did the smoke and flames start from three different places in particular three different places where there were no apv s and just where is the evidence for this fbi sayso the texas medical examiner refuted of their lies today and if the government did start the fire then why weren t people trying to get out of the compound let me put you in a building pump in cs knock the walls down around you and see how fast you find an exit and besides oh i don t know why i m even bothering i don t know why either you re willing to swallow everything fed you good boy i find it tremendously chilling that so many people seem willing to accept the governments story despite much evidence to the contrary i find it tremendously chilling that so many people seem eager to believe a murderous heavily armed religious cult despite much evidence to the contrary thought experiment suppose this exact same thing happened under the bush administration what would your answer be then would you still prefer to believe the cultists oh a clinton apologist why didn t you say so no i don t really expect a response to that challenge but then again that is how mr clinton was elected by people who believe that his campaign promisses would be respected by him once he got into office um isn t that how all politicians are elected if people will believe that of any politican it is little wonder they will believe all of the factoids being given out as fact by the clinton reno fbi batf confederation so is there any particular reason the gummint decided to slaughter eighty people are they like just plain evil or what did they just wake up one day stretch and yawn and throw a dart at a map of the united states to figure out who to oppress that day i m eager to know the kgbatf was expecting a quick victory while the cameras rolled however they were the only ones with a script and does bill clinton have cooler theme music than darth vader how is he on diabolical laughter does he look good in a cape these things must be investigated you first hey you re the apologist you tell us so i propose that we destroy the moon neatly solving that problem your blood pressure just went up mark sachs is mbs psuvm psu edu disclaimer if psu knew i had opinions they d try to charge me for them wayne j warf wwarf ucs indiana edu i speak for myself only clinton gore cia fbi dea assassinate bomb wod bor atf irs resist nsa christian god satan apocalypse zog nazi socialist communist explosive fundamentalist revolution nsc federal reserve constitution gold fema
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in article apr csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu andy freeman says this is where freeman s love of accuracy becomes really ridiculous good now let s look at those sections they ll prove my point his point was that it is possible under certain circumstances for many people to carry concealed in illinois a a person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly carries or possesses in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person except when on his land or in his own abode or fixed place of business any pistol revolver stun gun or taser or other firearm note that this doesn t affect all concealed carry look after the word except it always helps to read the law before commenting on it i did read the law before i commented on it judging from replies i received about my semantics on t p g post many if not most people here on t p g assume that when ccw laws are asked about the person is asking about the possibility of an ordinary citizen getting one it would also follow that said person would get the ccw to carry on his her person away from their home and or business would a prudent storekeeper carry concealed how about someone at home note that both are legal and a lot of common people qualify for one or the other andy maybe freeman did prove his point but his point is not relevant the thing that most people seem to care about when they ask questions about carrying a concealed weapon is whether or not they can carry it concealed on their person when they are out on the street somewhere i m sure that not many people are concerned with whether or not they can carry concealed at home speaking as someone who lives in illinois the only place where the above quoted law is relevant i know that it is legal to own a handgun here i am not taking into account city ordinances i could care less about whether or not i can carry concealed at home i only care about the fact that i can t carry concealed in the place where it really counts out on the street freeman loves to be accurate and i can understand that especially not but he seems to be forgetting that accurate facts don t always replace common sense i am not going to followup to this thread anymore because i believe that it is useless to argue these points anymore the only thing that is happening now is that freeman and i are running around in circles trying to prove each other wrong and i do not have the time to be playing games anymore of course now freeman will attack me about my use of common sense in some of my earlier posts but what can i do my only advice for freeman quit being so picky about accuracy sometimes and use your common sense it really does work some times jason u uicvm cc uic edu
talk.politics.guns	re the law of retribution steve hix writes is there nowhere on the net that this guy will not post not to mention is there anywhere that he makes any sense of course there is perhaps the vogons will put in a hyperspace bypass so that he can get there alan t furman don t blame me i voted libertarian atfurman cup portal com for more information
talk.politics.guns	re clinton joins list of genocidal socialist leaders in article c ycou m b cbnewse cb att com random cbnewse cb att com david l pope wrote from article apr starbase trincoll edu by i ve yet to meet a group of baptists who were stockpiling cambell s soup and m s ar s and banging marrying thirteen yuear sic olds so out of the numerous baptists that you hang around with you haven t seen any of the above behavior which trait stocking food for more than a week or owning a firearm is the definition of a cult what proof aside from david s aquittal leads you to believe that any banging marrying of thirteen year olds was going on does your wife know that you equate marriage with banging sic oh you re really bright as if nobody would have understood it was a typo several parents with children who either had at one time or currently were inside the compound made the aforementioned charges one parent actually spoke about said charges in reference to his year old daughter with koresh on the phone you missed my point entirely you re a sorry son of a bitch if you can t draw a distinction between these two things since this guy doesn t like the concept of freedom of religion he s going to insult you and your mom since you re unable to formulate a cogent response you make a lame joke people like you cheapen our constitution by using it to defend sociopaths who aren t deserved of it get a life and chill on the paranoia sociopath person with asocial or antisocial beahavior sociopaths persons all who can t stand other people sharing the same ranch house anti social normally meaning a response against societal norms stealing is sociopathic behavior it s not an oxymoron to have a group of sociopaths i guess you re not a psychologist oh well joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu it all suddenly becomes clear maybe you should get an education my man why does everyone discover the net in the spring why won t some assholes use a sig so i can send them mail instead of wasting bandwidth random joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu
talk.politics.guns	re clinton joins list of genocidal socialist leaders in article ra i h transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares wrote perhaps you ve been under a rock since say the turn of the century how in the is one man supposed to review every single freaking governmental action every day that s why we have an executive branch he reviewed the plan and said go but he wasn t the architect and he wasn t there bullhorn in hand implementing it yes he was responsible in the sense that he was briefed so what shit happens hey joe assuming you re old enough to remember it how did you feel about presidential responsibility every time reagan said i don t recall about his arms for hostages meetings with the ollie north gang how did you feel about it when bush said he was out of the loop on that decision when he was right there in the thick of it oh right he was responsible in the sense that he was briefed but so what shit happens is that what you said of course not there s more than a little difference between formulating foreign policy and overseeing the atf s handling of a scenario involving a group of religious fanatics why do people compare apples and oranges joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu
talk.politics.guns	heidi lmsc lockheed com original article the colorado daily recently reprinted the wall street journal s article on paxton quigley including the nefarious little paragraph the journal tacked onto the end after recieving much assistance from various t p g type folks i wrote a letter to the editor criticizing this last paragraph and surprise surprise surprise they published it the text follows the colorado daily btw is the university of colorado boulder student i think newspaper not exactly a big coup but every little bit i guess the title was the only thing they changed added gun stats the daily recently reprinted an article from the wall street journal primarily concerned with paxton quigley author of armed and female the article in turn cites a misleading statistic that was originally reported in the new england journal of medicine the article states a study found that a gun in the home was times more likely to be used to kill its owner spouse a friend or child than to kill an intruder this is an often quoted statistic and it is misleading for sev eral reasons outlined below the study gives the impression that if you own a gun the likelihood that you will successfully use it to defend yourself is less than that of the gun being turned against you the study however fails to take into account cases where a law abiding citizen uses a gun to thwart a crime without actually killing the perpe trator the study actually refers to acquaintances rather than friend this would include the friendly neigh borhood thug who shows up like clockwork every month the second your grandmother cashes her social security check possibly an acquaintance but hardly a friend the nejm study is based on the immediate dis position of cases and fails to take into account cases originally filed as homicides that were later ruled to be self defense especially considering the small sample size taking these events into account has a sub stantial effect on the ratio quoted criminologist gary kleck gives us a slightly dif erent statistic a gun is times more likely to be used successfully by a private citizen against an aggressor than it is to kill anyone at all further per sons defending themselves from aggression by using a gun fare better than those who resist vicimization by some other means or who offer no resistance at all statistics available from the fbi and other agencies also show that a gun is times more likely to be used by a non criminal to defend against criminal threat than to be used to commit criminal homicide times more likely to be used to defend against a criminal threat than to accidentally kill anybody and times more likely to defend against criminal threat than to be used to commit suicide it is well to keep in mind that nearly anything can be proved by uncritical quotation of statistics one has to consider carefully what questions were asked by those gathering the data before one can draw an accu rate conclusion from them d f taylor cu department of chemistry and biochemistry spooksmoke revolution assasination thorium cobalt clintin cia nsa shc dod loki acca nmsu edu liberty or death taylordf ucsu colorado edu send me something even you can t read
talk.politics.guns	re gun buy back in article bb e c r vmcms csuohio edu r vmcms csuohio edu writes in article r qqcinn j clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras writes any death is serious wanna discuss match control firearms related unintentional deaths among children ages and under are the fault of one or more negligent persons not the gun no i don t want to discuss match control i don t equate a book of matches to a loaded millimeter either and you shouldn t as the matches kill more kids so why are you bleating about guns say that tired old nra line guns don t kill people people kill people it may be tired but it is true sure people can kill people without guns but easy access to guns makes it a lot more convenient guns don t kill people people with easy access to guns kill people no that s not right either people who have both easy access and the desire to kill kill people considering that people who have the desire to kill turn that into easy access haven t you folks learned anything from either prohibition or the war on drugs if you don t affect the desire you re wasting your time not to mention the other costs incurred jim i m just saying how it is i m not saying if that is a good thing or not from the police who i have talked with who run some of these gun buyback programs i get the impression that they really think they are having an impact on the community good for them i note that the tm folks make the same argument if you ll pay their expesnses million for a reasonable size city they promise to meditate away all crime disease etc at least they re not promising to jail me if i don t go along with their little plan they re going to just sit in a room and fly leaving me alone gun violence whether its effective or not look if you can t measure the impact of these programs using some sort of pre test and post test evaluation what is the point it must be symbolic in nature ah but we have evaluated gun control using before after and it doesn t work to reduce crime what is the point we can t claim that it is symbolic as people do get jailed the police are essentially saying look if you have a gun lying around and you don t want it we ll give you for it because we care about the community no they re essentially saying we hope this will keep you from noticing that we re not doing anything useful pissing away resources isn t caring if you i and joe could think of a way to measure the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of these programs we could become rich and famous nope you ll merely be ignored as wright rossi and daly were after finishing under the gun they were supposed to prove that gun control worked so jim listen to me i said i m not religious whatsoever do you understand religion has nothing to do with this i could care less what religion they were okay to put children in that situation is wrong pure and simple difference is good jim i am the most progressive and diverse person in the world but if different is allowing kids to be exposed to tanks and tear gas then yes jim different is wrong so who gassed them given their previous experience with thugs who threw grenades before yelling we re from the govt and we re here to help you would a rational person think that the feds had their best interests at heart would you know that the gas was non lethal andy
talk.politics.guns	re waco burning v qheg ubvmsb cc buffalo edu p vasilion writes hallam zeus desy de writes the b b c are also reporting that bodies of b d members were found with bullet wounds in a manner that suggests they may have been shot attempting to leave the compound during the fire can you imagine what happens when a magazine explodes bullets go flying every where imho these gunshot wounds were actually caused when the magazines went up unlikely ammunition is not as dangerous when simply burned as it is when fired from a gun the brass case is not capable of holding the pressure generated by burning powder and will unless supported by the walls of a gun barrel or chamber simply split open while this may cause small pieces of brass to fly around it will not propel the bullet with any significant velocity in fact it was not uncommon in years past to dispose of old loaded cartridges by burning them as long as you were not close enough to take a piece of flying brass in the eye you were reasonably safe thus the detonation of loaded magazines or loose rounds might cause slight injury but would be unlikely to cause fatal bullet wounds alane nobody shares my opinions i am a jelly doughnut especially not my employer president john f kennedy
talk.politics.guns	re the dayton gun buy back re boston gun buy back lvc cbnews cb att com larry cipriani writes according to wnci fm radio this morning dayton ohio is operating a gun buy back they are giving for every functional gun turned in they ran out of money in one day and are now passing out vouchers of some sort they are looking for more funds to keep operating another media event brought to you by hci is there something similar pro gun people can do for example pay to anyone who lawfully protects their life with a firearm sounds a bit tacky but hey whatever works as david veal points out this sort of promotion would be used against gun owners by the mass media however here is my proposal offer gun safety classes in your area free as a community service such a class would normally cost or so offering it free is a good promotion our gun club has organized several of these we just finished teaching another one last night in fact and they have been very well received we get a lot of people who are novices interested in guns we even get a few who are anti gun but feel they should know something about gun safety since members of their family keep guns at home teaching such a course gives us many desirable benefits we have the chance to teach gun safety rules this increases firearm awareness and may help to reduce gun accident stats a gun safety class is politically correct and likely to be viewed positively by the public and the media most of the students are normal people not gun enthusiasts and this kind of class gives us the chance to give them a gentle introduction to firearms some of the students are enthusiastic and will purchase a gun and become more involved in shooting or personal defense it improves the public perception of our club and gun owners in general our students see that we are all reasonable non aggressive soft spoken people which helps to mitigate the standard image of a hardcore gun owner even anti gun students sometimes tell us they have something new to think about with regards to personal gun ownership sharing our experience with others is a lot of fun our course is the standard nra certified home firearm safety class and our students pay only for materials we also teach the nra s personal protection class although the cost is higher for that one since we have to purchase range time i think firearms safety classes are an excellent response to gun buy backs alane nobody shares my opinions i am a jelly doughnut especially not my employer president john f kennedy
talk.politics.guns	re change of name can you read if so read my posting about quisling or look in a dictionary if not don t read this thomas
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi do right thing in waco in article apr gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes everyone is complaining about the debacle in waco it is hard to understand all this angst what happend there is nothing less than what we wanted to happen why all the sour grapes cute word angst conveys volumes i d be interested in this particular definition of we it s such a fluid pronoun batf was looking for a propaganda event to counteract their impending budget cuts the attendance of the press at the initial big commando raid is proof it would have been ever so easier to grab koresh and his central followers as they shopped in waco alas no propaganda value there the fbi screwed up big time all the time they should have never allowed the situation to drag out like that a quick second assault before the bds could decide on a strategy would have been the better plan the bds themselves were the biggest screw ups though they imagined that us law and us law enforcement had no jurisdiction within their little country wrong the bd were a paranoid little cult out in the middle of nowhere which all of a sudden had their worst paranoid fears reinforced joy they had no right whatsoever to fire on the batf and if they mistook their identity initially they should have surrendered at once when they did realize who they were yes they probably should have although how many paranoid nuts can say they held off the feds for days if the bds had a problem with the warrants they take it to court just like the rest of us if they wanted full auto weapons they could have obtained the proper permits just like the rest of us would need to do what they may not do is decide for themselves what us law applies to themselves and which does not they get their chance like the rest of us at the voting booth the voting booth is highly over rated people need to get up off their lazy butts more than every year or every two years hell most don t even do that if the batf and fbi have become latter day gestapo then they have become that way because we have desired them to be so no because we have decided that it doesn t make enough difference to us to get up and do something that s something for instance a lot of people who go speak against gun control bills at their local government dozens of pro gun speakers show up and few if any antis do but they often win anyway why because it doesn t matter who shows up it matters who s willing to scream afterwards and it isn t that most people give a damn one way of the other but that they don t nobody gives a damn about anybody beyond their own little worlds we get to vote on laws and on the lawmakers by our choices over the years we have approved the creation and form of the batf and fbi when the fbi was out chasing pinkos the general public didn t seem to mind a bit of extra constitutional activity the general public s usually not even read the constitution and what they have learned is a distorted picture of the whole thing david veal university of tennessee division of continuing education pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed when you pushed me down the elevator shaft sometimes i get to thinking you don t love me anymore weird al yankovic
talk.politics.guns	newbie this is my first time on the network but i am very concerned with this incident in waco i will refrain from stating my opinions until after i have read the faq could someone tell me how to get this i must say that i believe the govt was wrong in the actions that they took in this situation portenier icsgh trex oscs montana edu
talk.politics.guns	re clinton joins list of genocidal socialist leaders in article apr starbase trincoll edu writes in article c ycou m b cbnewse cb att com random cbnewse cb att com david l pope wrote from article apr starbase trincoll edu by i ve yet to meet a group of baptists who were stockpiling cambell s soup and m s ar s and banging marrying thirteen yuear sic olds so out of the numerous baptists that you hang around with you haven t seen any of the above behavior which trait stocking food for more than a week or owning a firearm is the definition of a cult what proof aside from david s aquittal leads you to believe that any banging marrying of thirteen year olds was going on does your wife know that you equate marriage with banging sic oh you re really bright as if nobody would have understood it was a typo that was a reasonable insertion so folks would know random hadn t made an error reposting your message no one was flaming you for the typo several parents with children who either had at one time or currently were inside the compound made the aforementioned charges one parent actually spoke about said charges in reference to his year old daughter with koresh on the phone i have heard such claims from disgruntled former members could be true who knows no proof and what does all this have to do with the batf and fbi actions you missed my point entirely no you missed his you re a sorry son of a bitch if you can t draw a distinction between these two things since this guy doesn t like the concept of freedom of religion he s going to insult you and your mom since you re unable to formulate a cogent response you make a lame joke people like you cheapen our constitution by using it to defend sociopaths who aren t deserved of it get a life and chill on the paranoia sociopath person with asocial or antisocial beahavior sociopaths persons all who can t stand other people sharing the same ranch house anti social normally meaning a response against societal norms stealing is sociopathic behavior it s not an oxymoron to have a group of sociopaths i guess you re not a psychologist oh well joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu it all suddenly becomes clear maybe you should get an education my man why does everyone discover the net in the spring why won t some assholes use a sig so i can send them mail instead of wasting bandwidth this from someone who does not have a return address in his header newsgroups talk politics guns from subject re clinton joins list of genocidal socialist leaders organization trinity college hartford ct lines whereas david pope random did so a reasonable newsreader could simply hit reply to his comments but not to yours get an education in internet use my man random joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.politics.guns	re clinton joins list of genocidal socialist leaders in article apr starbase trincoll edu writes in article ra i innd g clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras wrote in article apr starbase trincoll edu writes i ve yet to meet a group of baptists who were stockpiling cambell s soup and m s ar s and banging marrying thirteen yuear olds i don t recall saying baptists do any of that though i suppose some do and none of them are listed in the dictionary as characteristics of a cult my mother stockpiled campbells soup when it was on sale you re a sorry son of a bitch if you can t draw a distinction between these two things you are an intolerent foul mouthed human you sound like you are ready to join the kkk or neo nazis with a narrow mind like yours fuck you my paternal grandparents died in oswiecym aushwitz in the native tongue for all of you pseudo historically literate people and bejing peking who cares about native tongue as long as we all understand each other i would suggest you d have to search long and hard to find someone with more diffuse sensibilities oh not more than a few feet i wouldn t think i m sorry if your paternal grandparents died in oswiecym or aushwitz which is easier to say than prove but if so the lesson they paid thier lives for was wasted on you just tootin my own horn you are the expert i often feel compelled to brag about the circumstances of my grandparent s death people like you cheapen our constitution by using it to defend sociopaths who aren t deserved of it get a life and chill on the paranoia i don t care about cults there s no language problem here my problem is with religious fanatics claiming to be god is just a little bit unsettling stockpiling several years supply of canned foods and enough weapons to hold off a company not to mention the atf which ed up in the first place and talking about how they re going to take care of all of the unbelievers but granted up to that moment he d done nothing wrong i recognize and respect that then the atf discovers he doesn t have proper permits for some of his purchases and failed to pay some taxes on them a batf offense if true then several parents come forward and demand that previous charges of child abuse be refiled there have been interviews with some parents whose children were in the compound at some point these parents claimed psychological and sexual abuse the childrens statements supported these charges a local offense if true totally outside the batf s domain was it a no knock i really haven t heard anything on that but clearly he was not just another guy minding his own business hell give them all the guns in the world if they don t bother anyone but he was a scary sort don t you think i didn t know the man just what the tv chose to tell me the sort of person you d want your daughter to date i thought there were prejudicial undertones here i would trust my daughter s judgement i didn t think so reason number one to doubt the legal statements made by some of the survivors note that some of them were made by his guard well hesitate to say expertly trained killers i don t believe either side blindly then he fired on the atf that s not just a little mistake or some red white and blue american defending his home against big brother if they fired first without announcing in a beleivable way who they were i can pound on your door and claim to be the police will you just lay down and take it if i do then he could be justified in firing on the atf in self defense that shit doesn t fly anyone with his background that will shoot and kill federal law enforcement officials is not some good citizen whose crusade enjoys our support he s a loose cannon just my opinion his background what law has he been convicted of breaking in the past joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.politics.guns	re two questions in article bb c sbanka vm temple edu sbanka vm temple edu writes i d appreciate any help anyone could give me on these two questions the brady bill was in the news throughout but what actually happened to it in congress did bush veto it if so when the brady bill passed the house in but failed to reach a vote in the senate as such it never reached bush sarah brady s condemnation not withstanding it ll probably pass the house again and will probably pass the senate if they can get it to a vote whether of not they ll be busy with other things will be the question i don t expect gung ho opposition on the part of senate republicans since they won t want to over use their fillibuster trump card david veal university of tennessee division of continuing education pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed when you pushed me down the elevator shaft sometimes i get to thinking you don t love me anymore weird al yankovic
talk.politics.guns	cnn tape shows tank starting fire a friend recorded cnn news during the gassing and incineration of the bd s i went through it carefully today and found something very interesting a tank is pulling out of the house and there is a fireball maybe across that lasts for about second exactly ten minutes and thirty nine seconds later the smoke starts billowing out of that area of the building now i m no govt spokestwinkie so it might really have been a weather balloon or something perhaps someone would check it out and comment
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors gjh galen med virginia edu galen j hekhuis writes nate psygate psych indiana edu nathan engle writes they assembled a frightening arsenal of weapons what exactly did you find frightening about their weapons the lethality in small part but mostly what i found frightening was the fact that they were wielded by people who believed that they ate breakfast every morning with jesus christ now i wasn t there in galilee back in the roman occupation so i don t know for certain that david koresh was not jesus christ but i strongly suspect that he was not even aside from the fact of never having seen them in a photograph together by circumventing laws which were intended to prevent such a buildup which laws are you making reference to i admit i can t cite a specific but if there isn t a law against purchasing grenade components and assembling them into functioning units then perhaps we need one all second ammendment arguments aside i m just not sure that i like the idea of private citizens with hand grenades nathan engle software juggler psychology department indiana university nate psygate psych indiana edu nengle silver ucs indiana edu
talk.politics.guns	re guns in backcountry no thanks in article netnews upenn edu egedi ahwenasa cis upenn edu dania m egedi writes in article apr csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu andy freeman writes in article apr midway uchicago edu pkgeragh gsbphd uchicago edu kevin geraghty writes wrong about the whole guns for protection mindset it ignores the systemic effects of cumulative individual actions if you want fire insurance on your house that s prudent and it has no effect on me but if you and a bunch of other paranoids are packing handguns in the backcountry it makes me and anyone else who doesn t chose to protect himself in this manner pretty f king nervous why if you re not a threat you re not affected at all aha that s the part that makes me nervous too who gets to decide if i am a threat when i might possibly be on the receiving end of a violent gesture then i get to decide for myself if someone does not like it too bad i would be doing exactly what you or any other living creature would do in terms of evaluation what s the big deal based on appearance sometimes would someone feel more threatened when approached by a very dirty smelly slightly maniacal looking person with a slight glaze to the eyes muttering to himself i might doesn t this describe most backpackers after they ve been out more than a couple of days not in my experience and let us not forget that context is often an important factor in evaluating a situation seeing disheveled persons on a hiking trail is not likely to be evaluated equally with meeting a grimey sort as described above on a lonely city street at am anyone that cannot properly discriminate between these two different situations is legitimate fodder for the old survival of the fittest principle or based on something else proximity no room to pass on the trail without getting real close to someone an inner sense now i m really getting nervous sounds like you doubt your own abilities you sound pretty typical in this respect you also seem to think that you ll be safe or safer if others are unarmed this is dangerous fantasy twice when i was hiking the a t i came up on a shelter that i was planning on staying at and saw someone sitting there cleaning his gun softly i backed away and hiked another miles to get out of there i ll freely admit it here i m not afraid of guns i m afraid of people that bring them into the backcountry then you are in need of some form of therapy not necessarily that of an analyst but maybe you should learn about guns your fear is seems to be based in ignorance and false knowledge you see a person with a gun and you feel threatened why is this so have you any legitimate basis for this any first hand experience that lends validity to your fears or are your fears based on mediated experience i e the anecdotes of others such as network news i trust you can see the lack of legitimacy in such mediated inputs and why are you afraid of the people as mentioned above forgive me but you sound afraid to the point of paranoia perhaps you should talk to someone about this i am not saying this to be rude or fascetious but i think anyone with fear as deep and baseless as yours seems to be needs some sort of help living in fear really sucks even if it is only when around people with guns in the back country tell me would you be as fearful of a park ranger who was right in front of you with their side arm in clear view why or why not andy v
talk.politics.guns	re civil rights violations eighth amendment the davidians suffered cruel and unusual punishment when f thoes who escaped were imprisoned without bail without a hearing happens all the time they were arraigned the next day i d doubt you d have any luck on this point i had heard that not all were arraigned yet some were being held as material witnesses
talk.politics.guns	guns amex and new name i have never spoken for a ban against guns in america what i ve said is that there seems to be to many of them and especially to many in wrong hands now if you would like to reduce the number how would you do it without affecting good responcible gun owners i do believe in a persons freedom what i don t believe is that you can have it all and don t pay for it most europeans believe in a society of individuals and that you have to give a little to make that society work cars and guns should really not be mixed i just tried to make a point like america norway has some spaces you have to cross to get from a to b so a car is essential in most parts guns on the other hand are not essential in norway so we don t argue that if we banned guns we have to ban cars everyone who believe that hitler and ww could be avoided if there were more guns in germany in the s please read some history is this discussion about banning weapons for all americans or making it harder for criminals to get one change of name wrote that one after reading the first postings about the waco incident i still think there are some posters should move their post to alt conspiracy or make a new newsgroup if you read the first postings after the waco fire you should see who i mean did the batf get the warrant for a gun search only or was there other reasons child abuse for instance doesn t the people reading this newsgroup have access to the clari news hierarcy some seems rather mis uninformed or is the clari news hierarcy ruled and censored by the corrupt facist goverment thomas parsli
talk.politics.guns	re clinton joins list of genocidal socialist leaders in article apr starbase trincoll edu writes people like you cheapen our constitution by using it to defend sociopaths who aren t deserved of it get a life and chill on the paranoia i don t care about cults there s no language problem here my problem is with religious fanatics claiming to be god is just a little bit unsettling stockpiling several years supply of canned foods no crime here and enough weapons to hold off a company no crime here not to mention the atf which ed up in the first place and talking about how they re going to take care of all of the unbelievers no crime here also no substantiation of your claim that koresh said this i for one have never heard this mentioned before where did you hear it but granted up to that moment he d done nothing wrong i recognize and respect that up to which moment the one where you decided that anyone who claims to be god no longer has the protection of the constitution what happened to the separation of church and state then the atf discovers he doesn t have proper permits for some of his purchases and failed to pay some taxes on them i have yet to see any evidence of this either from what i hear the original warrant the reason for the feb raid is still sealed what are unsealed seem to be warrants taken out after the initial raid then several parents come forward and demand that previous charges of child abuse be refiled there have been interviews with some parents whose children were in the compound at some point funny i haven t seen any of these interviews interesting that when the social services agencies investigated koresh on these previous charges they found absolutely no evidence of abuse these parents claimed psychological and sexual abuse the childrens statements supported these charges funny i don t remember hearing anything about childrens statements either where did you say you heard all this what i heard was that none of the children who left the compound early in the seige exhibited any signs typical of abuse physical or mental this from the newspaper and national tv news did you also hear that it s the job of the batf and the fbi to lay siege to homes where child abuse is suspected i thought you did was it a no knock i really haven t heard anything on that but clearly he was not just another guy minding his own business clearly please tell us what koresh was doing that can be construed as other than minding his own business before the batf raided the place hell give them all the guns in the world if they don t bother anyone but he was a scary sort don t you think the sort of person you d want your daughter to date i didn t think so reason number one to doubt the legal statements made by some of the survivors your logic just amazes me i think your grandparents who died in auschwitz would be turning over in their graves if they could hear how cavalierly you throw away people s protection of law because you think they re scary and not the sort of person you d want your daughter to date what sort of people do you suppose the nazis thought your grandparents were probably not the sort they d want their little frauleins dating note that some of them were made by his guard well hesitate to say expertly trained killers and next i suppose you ll tell us exactly who these well trained killers have killed then he fired on the atf that s not just a little mistake or some red white and blue american defending his home against big brother that shit doesn t fly because you said so right right anyone with his background that will shoot and kill federal law enforcement officials is not some good citizen whose crusade enjoys our support so someone with a different background say someone who didn t claim to be the messiah in your book could shoot and kill federal law enforcement officials would be a good citizen whose crusade enjoys our support he s a loose cannon just my opinion worth the paper it s printed on you re amazing simply amazing joe
talk.politics.guns	re waco inside story ap was re atf burns dhartung chinet chi il us dan hartung writes dear dear they could have come out no they probably couldn t if you had ever been tear gassed you wouldn t be so quick to condem
talk.politics.guns	re clinton joins list of genocidal socialist leaders joe why don t you put your username on your account on mon apr gmt joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu wrote then the atf discovers he doesn t have proper permits for some of his purchases and failed to pay some taxes on them or claims to have discovered so it would hardly be the first time they raided someone based on incorrect evidence was it a no knock i really haven t heard anything on that but clearly it was a no knock according to the associated press report here s something i found in my collection excerpts from an article in the knoxville news sentinel final edition monday march the byline is associated press waco texas fierce gun battles erupted sunday as more than law officers tried to arrest the leader of a heavily armed religious cult at least four federal agents and two cult members were reported killed the gun battles began when federal agents hidden in livestock trailers stormed the sect s head quarters sunday morning witnesses said the agents had warrants to search for guns and explosives and to arrest howell said les stanford of the atf in washington witnesses said the law officers stormed the compound s main home throwing concussion grenades and screaming come out while three national guard helicopters approached for a moment there was no response then the shooting began i think storming the sect s head quaters and throwing concussion grenades qualifies as a no knock or perhaps an illegal assault he was not just another guy minding his own business hell give them all the guns in the world if they don t bother anyone but he was a scary sort don t you think the sort of person you d want your daughter to date i probably not but then again neither are you then he fired on the atf that s not just a little mistake or some red white and blue american defending his home against big brother that shit doesn t fly anyone with his background that will shoot and kill and just what is his background what prior crimes had he been convicted of federal law enforcement officials is not some good citizen whose crusade sorry batf are federal tax enforcement officials they re not police nor do they have police powers charles scripter cescript phy mtu edu dept of physics michigan tech houghton mi the people cannot be all and always well informed the part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive if they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is lethargy the forerunner of death to the public liberty thomas jefferson nov
talk.politics.guns	bennett banned bayonet i wrote a letter the other day to empower america the organization which claims to be championing conservative issues esp in the wake of the republican defeat last fall some might consider them just a an organization to create a network of support among conservatives for some individuals in prep for run you d be close to the truth their two leading spokesmen are bill bennett former drug czar who heartily supported bush s semi auto import ban and wondered if it went far enough who helped put the big lie about sporting use into the public s eye and jack kemp who recently came out in support of semi auto bans these are conservatives anyway i thought it interesting that when i ran word perfect s spell check against my letter it came up with the following corrections for bennett banned bayonet needless to say i found these choices rather amusing it collectivism vs individualism is an ancient conflict men have come close to the truth but it was destroyed each time and one civilization fell after another civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy the savage s whole existence is public ruled by the laws of his tribe civilization is the process of setting man free from men ayn rand roark s speech from the fountainhead i don t speak for my company we hire the politically correct to do that
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article nate psygate psych indiana edu nate psygate psych indiana edu nathan engle writes i admit i can t cite a specific but if there isn t a law against purchasing grenade components and assembling them into functioning units then perhaps we need one all second ammendment arguments aside i m just not sure that i like the idea of private citizens with hand grenades are you aware you can make a grenade with gunpower and metal water pipes maybe we should outlaw hardware stores and ammo reloading are you aware that you can make a firebomb with gasoline etc justin ngai pounds ounces born
talk.politics.guns	here s the number to call for ca bills i made a few phone calls today and found that if you call the bill room at the sacramento state capitol you may order free of charge any bills that are currently being pushed i was told that they will only fill an order of five bills per phone call but when i asked kindly and told the nice lady that it was very important she filled my order for ten california state bill room subject re need senate bill numbers and house resolution numbers sorry i forgot to include this in my previous letter but we also have to worry about state bills these are the ones that i am currently aware of sb sb sb sb sb ab ab ab ab ab my thanks to bob hale for providing the bill numbers peter d nesbitt air traffic controller pnesbitt mcimail com oakland bay tracon cbr f pilot nra member ccx f s w magnum carrier hey i fixed my sig file
talk.politics.guns	re batf achieved objective wants to move on in article rh soinnimh cronkite central sun com dbernard clesun central sun com dave bernard writes in article convex com langston convex com kevin langston writes feustel netcom com david feustel writes everyone discussing why the batf did this or didn t do that is missing the point batf wanted to destroy koresh everything they did was consistent with that objective and having done that they ve declared victory by flying their flag over the ruins regardless of who started the firefight or fire i see the flag as nothing but arrogant not only arrogant but in plain bad taste as though they had defeated a difficult foe and done so with honor i understand reno does not own the batf doesn t bentsen a texas boy at that i believe why is not bentsen from treasury as much out front as reno is is he hiding behind her apron strings the batf got sat on pretty early on after the initial shooting was over it pretty much become the fbi s show even that batf guy stopped showing up next to the speaker at the daily press conferences david veal university of tennessee division of continuing education pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed when you pushed me down the elevator shaft sometimes i get to thinking you don t love me anymore weird al yankovic
talk.politics.guns	re waco questions the u s government has become a garrotte around the necks of its citizens just as with a garrotte the more people struggle to breathe the air of freedom the more the government tightens its stranglehold the only possible outcomes at this point are the death of government or the elimination of personal freedom i think this is a little extreme i am concerned about a couple of things i ve seen lately it seems to me that the government is beginning to enforce political correctness the first king verdict was polically incorrect so the hell with constutitional protection from double jeopardy try the cops again the bd s are far as i can tell didn t do anything wrong nothing that would justify the horrable end they were subjected too they were simply polically incorrect in the extream i can t help but wonder who s next jim shirreffs i speak for myself and only myself
talk.politics.guns	repeat violent criminals is reform often impossible from the boston globe thursday april p walpole man guilty in rape kenne n h a walpole man charged with kidnapping a mother of two from her home then raping and beating her has pleaded guilty roger santaw jr also plead ed guilty to an attempted escape from cheshire county jail last win ter santaw is scheduled to be sentenced next week the rape last fall came six months after santaw was released from prision where he spent years for a rape he commit ted when he was ap end of article any reactions did he do enough time what should his penalty be btw walpole is a town in massachusetts of course new hampshire is close by j case kim kim husc harvard edu
talk.politics.guns	re rewording the second amendment ideas in article apr ousrvr oulu fi dfo vttoulu tko vtt fi foxvog douglas writes this means you would support a ban if it were narrow enough good this was not stated nor implied try asking nerve gas and mustard gas are well defined other poisonous gasses should be individually banned only if it can be shown that there is no use not related to weaponry licenses should be available for research purposes on such chemicals this is laughable licenses right so then i would need a license to possess chlorine gas it is a weapons grade poison would i be breaking the law then if i were to say pour chlorox on the spot where my cat pissed on the floor the reaction of ammonia and bleach liberates pure chlorine gas do i go to jail for this why or why not would i need a license to possess other chemical agents what about nicotine deadly poison and rather fast acting must i now become licensed to posess tobacco and what about nicotine sulphate an even deadlier poison will i need a license to possess this type of insecticide what about raid tm black flag gasoline benzene hydrazine a violent poison will i go to jail for possessing a can of tomatoes that went bad with botulinus what about my mom pop qc lab where i use cyanogen bromide mustard gas to do lot analysis on certain non prescription pharmaceuticals what if i wish to use potassium cyanide to recover gold from aqua regia a license would i need a license to possess beryllium perhaps the most poisonous non radioactive metal how about beryllium copper alloy do i need a license for nitrate fertilizers which could be used to make very powerful explosive devices such as the one that the ira recently detonated killing and injuring can i have vinegar without license hydrogen peroxide where is the line drawn i am not a lawyer but these ideas could certainly be a basis for definitions yes they could but are they good ideas are they needed is there any shred of sanity in them scarcely i trust andy v
talk.politics.guns	re newbie in article b bf eb a msu oscs montana edu icsgh msu oscs montana edu writes this is my first time on the network but i am very concerned with this incident in waco i will refrain from stating my opinions until after i have read the faq could someone tell me how to get this i must say that i believe the govt was wrong in the actions that they took in this situation as far as i know there is no faq for tpg somebody was working on one but i think it died in committee david veal university of tennessee division of continuing education pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed when you pushed me down the elevator shaft sometimes i get to thinking you don t love me anymore weird al yankovic
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article rgudtinn it apache dtcc edu bob hobbes dtcc edu bob rahe writes in article rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes i want to see an independent investigation with full prosecuting and subpoena powers with felony prosecution where felony acts are found fat chance i bet i bet the justice dept will have an internal investigation which will turn up at most poor judgement ooohhhhhhhh can you say independent prosecutor geee maybe ol mr walsh can do something useful after all right fat chance i m responding at the risk of misreading your response but i do have to tell my fellow conservatives to give it up attacking reno clinton atf fbi they may have botched an operation but they didn t kill anybody who never shot at them first david koresh was a frigging lunatic his followers had the combined i q of a geraldo audience the kids probably would have been those fucked up social rejects who go to freshman dances in high school never to be seen again except maybe in the band until prom when they show up like animals boarding the ark then it s bowling till in the morning why why did it happen to me anyway the point is janet reno bill clinton were only following the advice of trained law enforcement officials who were experts in their fields i d rather have our leaders do that then micro manage every crisis that comes along then you d really see trouble no matter what party or ideology the president and her er i mean his attorney general is ryan c scharfy rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu
talk.politics.guns	re who s next mormons and jews in article viking ponderous cc iastate edu viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes in mcclaryc snpq kb netcom com mcclary netcom com michael mcclary writes lds and rlds philosophy is that all other religions have strayed from the true church as set down by jesus but that god will judge each on his own merits in addition the rlds also contend and the lds may as well that ignorance of the true way tm is an excuse you can only be condemned if you had been tought the way and rejected it in short lds and rlds suffer everybody from lutherans to buddhists secure in the knowledge that though they are wrong they will not be penalized for ignorance i believe that this is not quite correct my understanding is that lds is engaged on a project to convert the souls of deceased persons of other religions in order to spare them from damnation and gain them entrance into heaven to this end the church has compiled extensive genaeological records so that they will know the names of people to convert a long article in the new yorker a few years ago described the lds research methods in some detail for example some researchers pay visits to local native storytellers to learn the names of people long dead this sounds like just the sort of lie that would be made up about any unusual religion but the new yorker story convinced me that there is some truth to it the new yorker used to do extensive fact checking and the story was quite detailed ari
talk.politics.guns	re denver post classifieds no assault weapons eesnyder boulder colorado edu eric e snyder writes i came across the following notice in the denver post classified secctio this morning april begin quote notice the denver post will no longer knowingly accept any advertisement to buy or sell assault weapons the denver post finds that the use of assault weapons poses a threat to the health safety and security of its reader end quote now i suppose the post is within its rights to refuse such ads however the second sentence is so noxious i feel compelled to bring it to the attention of the t p g c g readership i called the post classified number and expressed my displeas re according to the supervisor i spoke to the post was reacting to public complaints regarding the running of assult weapon ads however she sai the paper was keeping track of the reaction to the change in policy i strongly encourage denver post readers to call and make their feelings k own eric e snyder department of mcd biology making feet for childrens sho s university of colorado boulder boulder colorado will do i appreciate the thoughtfullness of the post to not be an intermediary for such sales the right to bear arms is one of the most misapplied rights in our constitution and assault weapons go way beyond what is or rather should be imho a natural right in america just ask the family of that boy shot back in september the papers are full of stories about a child with an assult weapon with a angelic face post who committed the murder without ever thinking this has all got to get under control i applaud the post for their bravery jim trascapoulos jtrascap nyx cs du edu so what size id do you wear
talk.politics.guns	re the truth about waco dhartung chinet chi il us dan hartung writes jgd dixie com john de armond writes the tanks were collapsing interior walls and ceilings putting people at great risk dear dear they could have come out then by your logic the jews in europe in the s were the cause for the holocaust hitler told them to leave and because they didn t they brought the whole thing on themselves because as you say they could have come out of germany there was no group instruction of any kind from koresh or his aids after the tank invasion referring to any kind of suicide pact or counter assault efforts it s ultimately irrelevant who lit the fire they had ample opportunity to leave same for the jews in europe s while he was there anyway outsiders rarely see abuse it s a secretive thing all we have to go on are the court documents in the jewell case and the mistrial in california you don t see any evidence of the abuse therefore it must be taking place as you point out everwhere but here it is irrelevant to this case the atf is not in charge of investigating child abuse no one was ever held against their wills and could have left at any time the people who were murdered in the fire were there by their own choices exactly by their own choice in obvious contradiction to the statements made by the f b i i have never judged them by their religion but by their actions and just what are those actions that you are judging them by their refusal to let the government control their lives their refusal to submit to unconstitutional laws their refusal to behave like cowards some of texas heros could have taken the cowardly way out too and surrendered the alamo after all all they had to do was come out they stayed as you say by their own choice problem is not everyone chooses to act like a groveling dog in the face of insurmountable odds but as you point out they certainly do have that right if they had lived a quiet religious life as they claimed there would have been no raid no siege and no deaths instead they chose courses of action at every turn that were at the very least stupid if not irrational the first was to stockpile weapons the second was to shoot federal agents the third was to stay inside bull they did in fact live a quiet religious life as they claimed the warrant was not issued because they stockpiled weapons it is not against the law to own as many guns as you want yet except in virginia the warrant was issued for some gun parts that are about the size of a half dollar certainly worth the lives of so many people don t you think just as we don t blame a cop who shoots a kid who had pointed a toy weapon at him i don t think the fbi deserves blame in this case you can forget that we business i certainly do blame them he who would trade his liberty for karl klingman security deserves neither american research group inc karl dixie com
talk.politics.guns	re guns amex and new name thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no writes remember me tom i hope you ll respond and i seem to be a voice of reason or some such i ve been recieving fan mail so naturally my ego is somehwat inflated of late and hope to make a few points here i have never spoken for a ban against guns in america what i ve said is that there seems to be to many of them and especially to many in wrong hands and our argument is that you cannot remove them from the people who need restricting and not remove them from the people who don t a fairly simple problem given our size and numbers do you agree we all believe criminals particularly violent criminals should not have firearms the problem is making a law that does this without trodding upon the rights of the vast majority nobody here seems to be able to do it and i doubt anybody in norway can either thus we are left with a philosophical difference does the safety of a few justify restricting the many we say no while others say yes now if you would like to reduce the number how would you do it without affecting good responcible gun owners can you provide a method that cannot be abused i doubt it i do believe in a persons freedom what i don t believe is that you can have it all and don t pay for it of course this is not in contention what is in contention is how much one has to pay most europeans believe in a society of individuals and that you have to give a little to make that society work it is this giving a little that makes americans wary we have seen this argument before you might remember how a chamberlain gave a little to a particular fascist short asshole and how such appeasement worked while it might work in some instances it doesn t work in others and since we cannot predict the future we must be cautious in using actions that have a history of failure cars and guns should really not be mixed i just tried to make a point like america norway has some spaces you have to cross to get from a to b so a car is essential in most parts guns on the other hand are not essential in norway so we don t argue that if we banned guns we have to ban cars cars are not essential in norway any more than they are in the usa i m willing to bet that you have neighbors that would be willing to drive you anywhere you wanted to go for a price thus cars are not essential for your transportation however the arguments presented show that since cars are used to kill far more people than guns in the usa it makes much more sense to restrict cars than it does guns how one defines essential often depends upon what one is willing to go through for that service when we look at the raw data such comparisons are not individually weighed everyone who believe that hitler and ww could be avoided if there were more guns in germany in the s please read some history this depends upon what the populace was willing to do as desert storm proved even an armed populace won t just revolt even when given a chance still would hitler have done all that he did with an armed populace we have to wonder as some of his first acts were to confiscate firearms other points in history show that dictators were overthrown by arms in the hands of the populace thus we re left wondering if hitler would have been overthrown or if king george was just unlucky in keeping the usa as a colony one can argue both sides one also has to live with each action is this discussion about banning weapons for all americans or making it harder for criminals to get one it is about but so far all proposals to curtail have wound up enforcing as well i only wish that or was so logical change of name that was on my part purely in jest i merely pointed out how we were from similar backgrounds racially but of wholly different backgrounds politically i thought this would underscore my point on how our cultures were so different despite similar heritage did the batf get the warrant for a gun search only or was there other reasons child abuse for instance batf can only enforce gun tobaccco alcohol violations child abuse is a matter for the individual states and local authorities doesn t the people reading this newsgroup have access to the clari news hierarcy some seems rather mis uninformed that hierarchy is a paid for feed at many sites most people do not get it for this reason and i suspect money not censorship is the main reason do you get alt sex at your site i can t read it here because of censorship and legal fears so again our differences show you have topless sunbathing and in the usa we can watch a murder every fifteen seconds and yet breasts are forbidden on television dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
talk.politics.guns	re waco shootout highlights total irresponsibility of the i m not sure were this thread has been before i popped in but i ve never thought of waiting periods as having anything to do with training or competence i just can t imagin any valid reason for having a gun that can t wait a few days i can think of plenty of bad reasons for not wanting a waiting period i want to buy a gun and kill so and so right now i ve crossed the state line to buy a gun illegally and i can t afford to spend the night here etc i m not a big fan of guns but i feel that it is important to guard american s rights to own them on the other hand we license and regulate many things without seriously impeding anyones constitutional rights carl
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch update in article c v jha noose ecn purdue edu garrod dynamo ecn purdue edu david garrod writes in article apr news acns nwu edu brice merle acns nwu edu benjamin rice writes the reason the fire department couldn t fight the fire is that bullets were whizzing throughout the area had koresh not had such a frightenly large arsenal maybe the feds would not have decided that having the firedepartment on the scene would have been a useless waste of taxes and potentially dangerous had a different fire broken out in waco so how come the fire department had been at the compound area for days only to be sent away two days before the fbi attack whatever the above comment has to do with the hazards of fighting a fire in the midst of ammo cooking off maybe the fire department was loudly complaining the whole time about being diverted from their other duties and the fbi said fine go home and we ll call you if we need you a million things could have happened we don t know btw this is the first time i have heard that the waco fd was on scene for all but the last days what s the source out of curiosity personal opinions why brent irvine yes what did you think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu they were
talk.politics.guns	re community spirited drug dealers was strippers sylvain netcom com nicholas sylvain writes value gun shops where all the city s many fine community spirited drug dealers arm themselves such a fine posting with the exception of these particular lines i hope you don t really think that your average drug dealer actually purchases his gun s from a legal source as a matter of fact i know it there were several shootings recently in which the guns had been purchased at the baltimore gunsmith on broadway a favorite place to get cheap popular pieces by popular i am referring to the kinds of guns our local youth gangs like pistol grip shotguns cheap magnums and tec s i hate to poke a hole in your bubble but i was referring to a specific gunstore and specific incidents any other questions mjr
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors as quoted from nate psygate psych indiana edu by nate psygate psych indiana edu nathan engle what did those people do wrong in the first place that is what i can t figure out they assembled a frightening arsenal of weapons by circumventing laws which were intended to prevent such a buildup then later they used some of those weapons to kill representatives of the federal government i m sure they were frightened when they saw all those batf officers closing in but in retrospect i can t see how their subsequent gunfight could be expected to improve the situation what laws did they circumvent being frightening isn t a crime some people are afraid of young black males that doesn t make the mere status of being a young black male a crime the batf itself admitted leading off by throwing handgrenades there is no evidence that they properly identified themselves as law enforcement personnel under those circumstances other persons have been found to be acting within their legal rights to exercise self defense against unidentified armed intruders at this point i place little or no credibility on any of the charges of child abuse or molestation but i would remind you that the branch davidians aren t the only ones burying their dead the charges are irrlevant anyway since the batf has absolutely no jurisdiction in such matters anyway of course that hasn t stopped them from making other such spurious charges such as the existence of mythical meth labs of course they whole cult thing indicates the level of contempt that they have for the st amendment sure they were crazy no dought about it but what did they do wrong they attempted to stage an armed resistance to federal authorities under conditions that placed dozens of unarmed and innocent people in the line of fire that armed resistance at least initially may well have been legal you re like a bunch of over educated new york jewish aclu lawyers fighting to eliminate school prayer from the public schools in arkansas holly silva
talk.politics.guns	re hb passes the texas house in a previous article dlb tamuts tamu edu daryl biberdorf says from memory today s houston chronicle april reported that hb passed in the texas house of representatives with approximately this is from memory votes for and votes against what does this bill do however in an effort to go into cya that s cover your ass mode they wrote the bill in such a way as to make the law subject to a statewide referendum in november however the paper reported that this is actually unconstitutional under the texas constitution which only allows referendums for constitutional amendments not for plain old laws if the court does not permit the referendum the bill will probably go into effect with little fanfare all of the above is subject to the texas senate s voting for the bill as well time to start calling the state senators now daryl daryl biberdorf n gjm d biberdorf tamu edu sola gratia sola fide sola scriptura mcd bill mcdonald le coeur a sas raisons que la raison ne st louis mo connait point the heart has its wm rapa texbell sbc com reasons that reason cannot understand
talk.politics.guns	my sig my sig has generated more mail than any of my posts robin hood is a school financing plan wherein property rich school districts will have a portion of their tax revenue taken from them and given to property poor districts the laudable plan is to equalize the per student spending imho however it is a disaster waiting to happen taxes will go up in of the districts and we will lose control of how our tax money is spent it penalizes districts that have excelled and the election is saturday along with city council school board and the unfinished senate term and after i exercise one right i m going to exercise another dillon pyron the opinions expressed are those of the ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated when i m here when i m home texans vote no on robin hood we need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions not gestures padi dm
talk.politics.guns	re repeat violent criminals is reform often in article husc harvard edu kim scws harvard edu john kim writes from the boston globe thursday april p walpole man guilty in rape kenne n h a walpole man charged with kidnapping a mother of two from her home then raping and beating her has pleaded guilty roger santaw jr also plead ed guilty to an attempted escape from cheshire county jail last win ter santaw is scheduled to be sentenced next week the rape last fall came six months after santaw was released from prision where he spent years for a rape he commit ted when he was ap end of article any reactions did he do enough time what should his penalty be btw walpole is a town in massachusetts of course new hampshire is close by j case kim kim husc harvard edu some women might say death how about life with no hope of parole david n bixler auburn university all standard disclaimers apply
talk.politics.guns	bomb laws was re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article c cpi m f news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes the primary purpose of fertilizer is not to explode or kill people maybe just a law saying you cannot use this stuff to make a bomb would be good even better let s pass a law making it illegal to kill people with bombs of any sort henry schaffer p s thanks for explaining the primary purpose of fertilizer now i can stop worrying about the world trade towers bombing
talk.politics.guns	re why are we being censored in a free america this node specificaly in article apr mixcom mixcom com you write which article of the constitution gives me the right of revolution if things seem to be going cockeyed hmmm peter g white president synthesis inc milwaukee wisconsin u s a peter white mixcom com dunno if you ll find it in the constitution but that other document of american liberty that kids are taught to hallow in school is the declaration of independence that document is in fact a justification not just for the right if revolution but of the duty of revolution by the people once the government gets too oppressive it is a very radical document and i recommend all americans especially those in office read it once a year
talk.politics.guns	re gun buy back on thu apr gmt r vmcms csuohio edu wrote firearms are the fifth leading cause of unintentional deaths among children ages and under from the rkba archive rkba total firearm deaths for children through at is one of the smallest causes of deaths in children cars falls burns drowning food ingestion are all much larger cause of deaths so firearms are the th leading cause after drowning and choking on food at least for sorry charles according to the national safety council accident facts in gun accidents were the fifth leading cause of accidental death for children ages and under i don t understand how the ratio to other accidental deaths is important so guns don t kill as many children as car accidents what is the difference in severity between deaths and deaths the difference is that a rational person would address the leading cause first and address the lesser causes later that thinking is so screwed up i don t even know how to respond to it a rational person would concentrate on motor vehicle deaths and not attempt to affect childhood falls drownings gunshot injuries etc so this so called rational person using your definition if he or she were attempting to affect the leading causes of deaths for adults aged through would only worry about cancer and would not try to decrease lesser causes such as heart disease injuries stroke suicide liver disease chronic lung disease homicide hiv infection or diabetes oh okay charles that makes a lot of sense i tell you what charles i ll call the heart foundation and suicide hotlines and tell them that they are not acting rational and that they can all go home because they are addressing the lesser causes of death and you call your local police homicide department liver foundation and diabetes foundation and tell them to stop addressing these lesser causes please quit wasting my time with this silly shit charles i ve got an idea charles why don t you start a talk politics caraccidents group or talk politics fall group this is talk politics guns don t confuse the issue just because a social problem may not claim as many victims as another we should not try to address it i don t agree i m not posting to t p g to debate the supposed severity of causes of childhood deaths i am really getting frigging sick of having to respond to the irrational statements of people who assume that someone who wants to discuss youth gun violence or unintentional youth gun deaths is trying to make a political issue out of it i assumed that any humane person would be concerned when any year old got hold of their parents gun from their bedroom drawer and accidently blew away one of their friends a humane person who keeps a firearm in the house with a year old would also teach this child how to safely handle the firearm ignorance is our greatest enemy again charles you tend to confuse the issue and take things out of context for your own purposes the statement that you responded to above is actually in reference to a previous post by another person who like you expressed concern over making youth gun violence a priority i guess maybe humane person and rational person could be interchangeable huh both would be defined as a person who only addresses the social problem that causes the greatest number of childhood deaths if that is the case i m extremely glad that i am inhumane and irrational well joe i suggest that you talk to the center to prevent handgun violence what other sources of information do you have which confirms their data these folks are well known for misrepresenting the facts perhaps you can verify their data with the uniform crime report sorry charles the fbi uniform crime report is well known for misrepresenting the facts but if you insist according to the ucr firearm murders of youngsters and under increased percent between and is the national center for health statistics good enough for you they state that every day american children ages and under are killed in gun accidents suicides and homicides many more are wounded or how about the national pediatric trauma registry they say gunshot wounds to children ages and under nearly doubled in major urban areas between and do you also doubt the american academy of pediatrics charles they state that gunshot wounds among children in urban areas increased from to charles i hope you don t need to be convinced that youth are increasingly victims of gun injuries and that they have easy access to guns if you don t realize this fact i don t care if you go by cdc or fbi data or if you go into the homes schools and streets where these kids are and take a poll by yourself i m not going to bother to try to convince you its obvious that you have ruled out any idea of discussing this issue in a sane fashion and that you are so focused on trying to make this a gun control and political discussion i really don t want to do that or the centers for disease control they have firearm statistics are firearms a disease charles it s obvious that you know nothing about the cdc they don t just study cancer and heart disease i ve got news for you interpersonal gun violence is an epidemic in surgeon general c everett koop declared that gun violence is as much a public health problem as cancer heart disease or auto accidents that you greatly underestimate the presence of guns in the lives of youths in the lives of youths or in their schools i know a number of youths who have firearms present in their lives is is quite appropriate to teach children to safely handle firearms this is a presence right what are you trying to say this innuendo reminds me of listening to bill clinton who the f k said anything about teaching children to safely handle firearm charles in the future if you are going to post to t p g and jump into a previous discussion please read the entire posting not just sentence that you decide to respond to what the hell are you saying here you re wasting time and space trying to make a political and gun control issue out of a discussion that isn t the cphv reports that youth bring guns to school daily and that bring guns to school at least once a year i wouldn t trust their statistics without independent verification the cdc estimates that out f high school students carried a gun to school at least once in based on cphv statistics based on ucr based on what the cdc also says that million elementary aged latch key children kids who come home from school to an empty house have access to guns in their home therefore what is the purpose of this claim charles buddy i m getting really tired of this do you live on the planet mars as a physicist i realize that you probably don t come into contact with many youth but i really think you need to make a trip to your local urban high school and discover the joy of guns in schools in addition spend a few minutes talking to these kids ask them if they have ever heard gunshots in their neighborhoods whether they know anyone who has been shot whether they know anyone who has a gun whether they have ever held a gun and whether they themselves have ever been shot believe me charles that will be your independent verification rodney w thomas r vmcms csuohio edu urban child research center cleveland state university cleveland oh
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article apr synapse bms com hambidge bms com writes in article c e d u news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes in article apr uoft utoledo edu steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu jason think steiner writes james p dusek dusek rtsg mot com writes garrod dynamo ecn purdue edu david garrod writes they did they used cs that would not harm children i really hope you re being sarcastic here but i ve seen so many stupid things said in complete seriousness that it s hard to tell without a smiley do you actually believe there s a cs gas that can discriminate based on the age of the target yes the gas used was a mild concentration or formulation compared to the heavy duty stuff you know this for a fact how do you know or are you just making things up for flamebait the fbi has claimed from the begining that it wasn t standard use tear gas how do you know it was or do you just assume it was for flamebait richard
talk.politics.guns	re rewording the second amendment ideas a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of the free state the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed i know that as a canadian i don t have much to stand on but i think that the right to keep and bear arms is very important to maintaining a free society the america is still the most enviable place to live on this earth by anyone with their head on straight and will stay that way only if more people stand up publicly for what they believe remember that if you stand for nothing you ll fall for anything including well meaning socialists they did in canada later ted
talk.politics.guns	more propaganda just saw on cnn that the independent team that examined the waco fire and reported that it was started inside by the bds is now under question the attoneys for the bd s are claiming that it s not an impartial team for the team leader is the wife of one of the batf agents ha the goverment continues with it s propaganda this is not a secure line daniel r oldham oldham heron icd ab com
talk.politics.guns	no cost to gun waiting periods in article rhr s fg access digex net carlaron access digex com carl aron writes i m not sure were this thread has been before i popped in but i ve never thought of waiting periods as having anything to do with training or competence i just can t imagin any valid reason for having a gun that can t wait a few days you can t think of any valid reason to own a gun that can t wait either you have a very limited imagination or a strange definition of the word valid here are a few reasons you might want a gun right now you re a korean greengrocer in la and a riot has just started in a nearby neighborhood you ve received a death threat your so has just broken your arm and you fear for your life if you stay with him and he s said he ll kill you if you leave him a psychopath is breaking into people s houses in your neighborhood and robbing and killing people inside a violent mugger is operating on the route you have to take to get to your night job there are lots of dangers you might be in that won t wait for the waiting period for you to purchase a gun pro choice anti roe e elizabeth bartley abortions should be safe legal early and rare
talk.politics.guns	re hb passes the texas house hb is for concealed carry in texas it provides for licensing citizens to carry concealed firearms if they pass an instruction course hours if i remember correctly pay a fee good for years and meet several other criteria related to personal character etc while i don t agree with all of the criteria i feel it s high time that pro gun types fight the same way hci et al do by getting incremental changes in the law daryl daryl biberdorf n gjm d biberdorf tamu edu sola gratia sola fide sola scriptura
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article c e d u news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes in article apr uoft utoledo edu steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu jason think steiner writes james p dusek dusek rtsg mot com writes garrod dynamo ecn purdue edu david garrod writes they did they used cs that would not harm children i really hope you re being sarcastic here but i ve seen so many stupid things said in complete seriousness that it s hard to tell without a smiley do you actually believe there s a cs gas that can discriminate based on the age of the target yes the gas used was a mild concentration or formulation compared to the heavy duty stuff i heard it was delivered in high concentration to counteract the wind at mph blowing it away what is your source for the quoted low concentration
talk.politics.mideast	re freedom in u s a in a previous article jaa cunixa cc columbia edu john a absood says it is never wise to confuse freedom of speech with freedom of racism and violent deragatory it is unfortunate that many fail to understand this crucial distinction i couldn t agree more canada has an anti hate law which exists to punish those who wilfully spread false propaganda lies for the purpose of putting down another group this is actually the law that david irving will hopefully be found guilty under due to his denial of the holocaust it s too bad that this useless centre for policy research isn t in canada it d set a nice precedent to how the law applies in cyberspace steve internet aa freenet carleton ca fidonet mossad qube ocunix on ca my opinions are not associated with anything including my head
talk.politics.mideast	re deir yassin hm cs brown edu writes in article martinb brise ere umontreal ca aurag ere umontreal ca aurag hassan writes are you trying to say that there were no massacres in deir yassin or in sabra and shatila if so then let me tell you some good jokes there is not and was not any such thing like jewish killing in wwii palestinians just did what davidians did for fourty years and more in fact no one was killed in any war at any time or any place people die that is all no one gets killed maybe also vietamiese didn t die in vietnam war killed by american napalm they were just pyromaniacs and that s all maybe jews just liked gas chambers and no one forced them to get in there they may be thought it was like snifing cocaine no what do you think of this isn t it stupid to say so well it is as stupid as what you said next time you want to lie do it intelligently sincerely yours hassan arab civilians did die at dir yassin but there was no massacre first of all the village housed many armed troops secondly the irgun and stern fighters had absolutely no intentions of killing civilians the village was attacked only for its military significance in fact a warning was given to the occupants of the village to leave before the attack was to begin by all rational standards dir yassin was not a massacre the killing was unintentional the village housed arab snipers and arab troops thus it was attacked for its military significance it was not attacked with intentions of killing any civilians to even compare dir yassin in which some or so arabs died to the holocaust is absurd the irgun did not want to kill any civilians the village had almost inhabitants most of whom survived harry this is such bullshit deir yassin was an unprovoked attack on the part of the jews and a massacre defines it best in my opinion the village of deir yassin had had a pact with the jews a peace pact but the irgun purposely broke this agreement in order to scare off the palestinians i might grant that this village housed armed arabs i doubt it but nothing in the archives and available literature indicates that this was a motivating force amongst the irgun the deir yassin massacre was part of an over all strategy to intimidate the palestinians to flee the jewish homeland and contrary to your belief many civilians were killed deir yassin was later advertized by the very jews who perpetrated it because it was useful in getting many palestinians to leave the palestinians were rightfully scared off because they did not want another deir yassin i m not necessarily condemning the israelites here atrocities were aslo committed on the part of the arabs israelophiles should just be careful in thinking that they are and were the good guys in the middle east both arab and jew suck equally
talk.politics.mideast	re rejoinder questions to israelis in article apr freenet carleton ca aa freenet carleton ca steve birnbaum writes sb oh yeah israel was really ready to expand its borders on the holiest day sb of the year yom kippur when the arabs attacked in oh wait you sb chose to omit that war perhaps because it supports the exact sb opposite to the point you are trying to make i don t think that it s sb because it was the war that hit israel the hardest also in it was sb egypt not israel who kicked out the un force in it was the arabs sb who refused to accept the existance of israel based on the borders set sb by the united nations in egypt closed off the red sea to israeli sb shipping a clear antagonistic act and in the attack was a response sb to years of constant shelling by terrorist organizations from the golan sb heights children were being murdered all the time by terrorists and israel sb finally retaliated nowhere do i see a war that israel started so that sb the borders could be expanded i agree with all you write except that terrorist orgs were not shelling israel from the golan heights in but rather from lebanon the golan heights have been held by israel since and therefore the plo could not have been shelling israel from there unless there is something i am not aware of tsiel tsiel ohayon jcpl co jp if you do not receive this e mail please let me employer may not have same know as soon as possible if possible opinions if any two percent of zero is almost nothing
talk.politics.mideast	re deir yassin in article hm apr angell cs brown edu hm cs brown edu harry mamaysky writes arab civilians did die at dir yassin but there was no massacre first of all the village housed many armed troops nobody ever produced the meagerest evidence for this it does not appear in several long published accounts by irgun participants even some irgun propagandists do not make this claim secondly the irgun and stern fighters had absolutely no intentions of killing civilians several members of the irgun attacking party including the leader deposited personal declarations in the irgun archives jabotinsky institute tel aviv which state that the lehi proposed to liquidate the village after the conquest it seems the begin overruled this plan however the willingness of many of the attackers to seriously consider this possibility serves as instructive character evidence the village was attacked only for its military significance the haganah tried to get the irgun to attack a village with real military significance but it was considered too hard the soft target of deir yassin was chosen instead in fact a warning was given to the occupants of the village to leave before the attack was to begin there was intention probably originating with begin to give such a warning but the loudspeaker truck got stuck in a ditch before reaching the village everyone knows that by all rational standards dir yassin was not a massacre by all rational standards you should be posting from b cpu the killing was unintentional the village housed arab snipers and arab troops thus it was attacked for its military significance it was not attacked with intentions of killing any civilians a lie repeated is still a lie to even compare dir yassin in which some or so arabs died to the holocaust is absurd the irgun did not want to kill any civilians the village had almost inhabitants most of whom survived harry brendan
talk.politics.mideast	re dir yassin in article hm apr angell cs brown edu hm cs brown edu harry mamaysky writes from myths and facts by leonard j davis near east research inc pp unlike the plo s almost exclusive focus on civilian targets the troups from the irgun and stern group that struck at deir yassin on april targeted the village for its military importance deir yassin was on the road to jerusalem which the arabs had since facts and myths doesn t even know where deir yassin was why should we pay any attention to the rest of what it says blockaded and it housed iraqi troups and palestinian irregulars snipers based in deir yassin were a constant threat to jewish citizens in jerusalem arab civilians were killed at deir yassin but that attack does not conform to the propaganda picture that the arabs have tried to paint the number of arabs killed was generally reported to be about in however eric silver of the guardian britain interviewed a survivor mophammed sammour who testified that out of a population of were killed about three days after the massacre sammour explained representatives of each of the five clans in deir yassin met at the moslem offices in jerusalem and made a list of the people who had not been found alive we went through the names nothing has happend since to make me think this figure was wrong this account from eric silver is the only valid point that m f makes you can find it together with other evidence and analysis in silver s biography of begin also in silver s book you will find documentary evidence that nearly everything else in m f s account is pure bullshit unlike the plo s deliberate attacks on civilians the killing of civilians at deir yassin was not premeditated the attackers left open an escape corridor from the village and more than residents left unharmed after the remaining arabs feigned surrender and then fired on the jewish troops some of the attackers killed arab soldiers and civilians indiscriminately independent observers told the guardian that among the bodies they found arab men disguised as women this is pretty disgusting the guardian was told of one or two feeble old men who dressed in women s clothing in a pathetic attempt to escape death see silver s book brendan
talk.politics.mideast	uva wow it s sad to see that the university of virginia has begun to produce such a virulent breed of jew haters and self hating jews roar lion roar
talk.politics.mideast	re happy birthday israel in article c r f s news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux cso uiuc edu edward a shnekendorf writes israel happy th birthday anybody has any information about the number of the people have been killed by israel during these happy year hamid
talk.politics.mideast	re freedom in u s a astein nysernet org writes freedom of speech does not mean that others are compelled to give one the means to speak publicly some systems have regulations prohibiting the dissemination of racist and bigoted messages from accounts they issue apparently that s not the case with virginia edu since you are still posting alan h stein astein israel nysernet org first of all i m still baffled what you possibly could have found racist in my argument for freedom of speach i did not mention names nationalities countries let alone races you are right in that virginia edu does not have a thought police like israel nysernet org seems to i didn t know that you guys are getting a privelege by the israelis by getting the means to speak publicly virginia edu lets every student regardless of their opinion to speak their mind virginia edu is true to its founding father thomas jefferson the author of the bill of rights in allowing freedom of speach sorry you guys in israel have a hard time with the concept
talk.politics.mideast	re freedom in u s a deleted this is actually the law that david irving will hopefully be found guilty under due to his denial of the holocaust it s too bad that this useless centre for policy research isn t in canada it d set a nice precedent to how the law applies in cyberspace steve internet aa freenet carleton ca fidonet mossad qube ocunix on ca my opinions are not associated with anything including my head well canada is wrong if it was in the us the aclu would have made sure that such repressive laws are found unconstitutional do you think the church didn t find galileo s perception of the universe offensive
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii tichauer valpso hanse de writes reporting the events i doubt the propaganda machine of goering and later as somebody informed you about your gross mistake you none of you guys noticed my gross mistake cause you don t have a clue i noticed the misspeaking myself and corrected it i doubt you would have ever noticed i m sure you learned the history of nazi germany and austria from your family actually i ve read books and taken courses on the subject ah yes and like you lived in the greater deutschland trying to make comparisons between israels politics and nazi german austrian politics shows only your degree of ignorance high intellect low humanity none you guys are funny it s funny to see people lose control and start the name calling when they realize they have no point i respect anybody who dissagrees with me as long as he respects me and discusses in a civilized manner i would never say that anybody that critizises israel and or its politics is an antisemite could have fooled me i don t know what you call a civil libertarian never heard about them but i know only one thing if all of them think like you do it then civil libertarians is a new denomination for antisemites may other civil libertarians come to word to this group so that we can learn if a beyer and me are right that civil libertarians are antisemites i understand how individual liberties freedom of speach religion etc could be a thing you never heard about actually civil libertarians believe in the fundamental freedoms that belong to human beings they would support the jews against the nazis or anyone else who tries to oppress them and they would support the arabs against the israelis and any other such oppressive regimes iraq etc btw i couldn t care less for what andi beyer appreciates well actually now that you mentioned here are a few things i appreciate politeness stimulating conversation a red rose new york in june and a good gerschwinn tune a chocalate sundae really angry out of controll funny people if you need the complete list don t hesitate to ask
talk.politics.mideast	re desertification of the negev in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes contrary to ben gurion s assertion it must be affirmed that during the years of the british mandate over palestine and for centuries previous a productive human presence was to be found in all parts of the negev desert in the very arid hills and valleys of the southern negev as well as in the more fertile north these were the bedouin arabs in fact this productive human presence in the desert has in the centuries it has been there produced one of the greatest civilizations in human history they not only created the wheel but the printing press the light bulb post modern skyscraper architecture broadway theatre and nuclear power as well the real desertification of the negev mainly in the southern part occurred after israel s dispossession of the bedouin s cultivated lands and pastures right elias the negev was a veritable garden of eden until the evil jews turned off the rain and turned it into a horrible desert part of the international jewish conspiracy say who should i call to turn off the rain here in ny right now nowadays the majority of the square kilometer negev which represents percent of the state of israel pre borders has been desertified beyond recognition yeah deserts rarely look like the garden of eden the main new occupiers of the formerly bedouin negev are the israeli army the nature reserves authority whose chief role is to prevent bedouin from roaming their former pasture lands this is why nature reserves people are heavily armed with anti tank weaponry just what we need in the nature reserves and vast industrial zones including nuclear reactors and dumping grounds for chemical nuclear and other wastes nothing like vast nuclear reactors when it comes to hiding them from air attack at least saddam had the sense to hide his cbn plants in baby milk factories israeli jews in the negev today cultivate less than half the surface area cultivated by the bedouin before and there is no jewish pastoral activity indeed many older people recall fondly those lovely tomatoes and oranges that the bedouin exported form their garden of eden in fact that region used to supply the entire world with bananas until the jews pushed that business onto the banana republics elias you re stupid postings are a source of considerable amusement and hilarity please don t stop i might even have to go back to watching tv jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re uva if you think that kind of uncalled for blanket statement will cause censorship at mr jefferson s university you are wrong
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii please note followup in apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes you guys are funny it s funny to see people lose control and start the name calling when they realize they have no point comparing israel to nazi germany is name calling of the lowest kind please don t be disingenuous they civil libertarians would support the jews against the nazis or anyone else who tries to oppress them and they would support the arabs against the israelis and any other such oppressive regimes iraq etc do civil libertarians make no distinction between the nazis and israel would you say that the iraqis are like the nazis if you do not make such distinctions then all injustices are equally evil and the world is a completely evil place in that case we may as well give up right now david f skoll
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii can someone elaborate a little on what this libertarian movement is i am not going to draw conclusions from a small sample but so far i recall two self described libertarians posting here both seems to be incredibly ignorant incredibly arrogant all they want is to get people angry posses a lousy sense of humor write incoherently and jump from topic to topic without any logical connection between topics describe themselves as intelligent and knowledgeable although everything in their posters points to the opposite very childish is this some campaign to smear this libertarian party or what danny keren
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii jake bony bony com writes in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes waldo cybernet cse fau edu writes all jews suffered during wwii not just our beloved who perished or were tortured we all suffered all humans suffered emotionally some jews and many others suffered physically i m just waiting for andi to tell us that african americans should start paying compensation to white americans who suffered from being slave owners do you have a problem with the language i said everyone suffered emotionally because they sympathyzed with the victims of holocaust i wasn t implying that anyone suffered more than the actual victims neither was i implying any wrongdoing on the part of the jews as the cause for the holocaust what is wrong with you guys regardless of what one says you keep hearing what you want to hear
talk.politics.mideast	re freedom in u s a ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes virginia edu is true to its founding father thomas jefferson the author of the bill of rights in allowing freedom of speach sorry you guys in israel have a hard time with the concept jefferson was not the author of the bill of rights my history books aren t here but jefferson might have been in the group that did not think that enumerating rights was necessary cheers steve steven berson ucla computer science department steven cs ucla edu los angeles ca
talk.politics.mideast	re freedom in u s a in article apr cs ucla edu steven surya cs ucla edu steven berson writes ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes virginia edu is true to its founding father thomas jefferson the author of the bill of rights in allowing freedom of speach sorry you guys in israel have a hard time with the concept jefferson was not the author of the bill of rights my history books aren t here but jefferson might have been in the group that did not think that enumerating rights was necessary cheers steve steven berson ucla computer science department steven cs ucla edu los angeles ca owwww mr jefferson would be clearly disappointed in your designation of him as author of the bill of rights and your reference to those in israel was condesceding and inappropriate the declaratio of independence of was written by thomas jefferson in the constitution was drafted by men in philadelphia in the bill of rights was added well maybe jefferson would be flattered as to you guys at uva your right not all of you are anti jewish or self hating but when i visited charlottesville i noticed a distinct lack of diversity from which i must assume you garner your inability to perceive the reality of the outside world p
talk.politics.mideast	re final solution for gaza in article apr das harvard edu adam endor uucp adam shostack writes in article bdc news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes certainly the israeli had a legitimate worry behind the action they took but isn t that action a little draconian what alternative would you suggest be taken to safeguard the lives of israeli citizens adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu tell them to stay home sorry terrible attempt at homour there alternative hell i don t know but its perfectly possible to have objections to a particular policy while feeling that there is no alternative choice tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca
talk.politics.mideast	turkish genocide apology grants time travel to the dead in turkish genocide apology zuma uucp as scribed by its servile dolt sera zuma uucp serdar argic we read a response to article apr colorado edu perlman qso colorado edu eric s perlman who wrote ep this has been discussed before by several people on this net the ep statement is attributable either to hajj amin al husseini former grand ep mufti of jerusalem and the leader of the palestinian death squads ep during the war or to one of his chief henchmen in russia general dro the butcher the architect of the turkish genocide in wwi was working closely with the german secret service he entered the war zone with his own men and acquired important intelligence about the soviets his experience with the turkish genocide in x soviet armenia made him an invaluable source for the germans what a fool for the above to be true which it is not the wwi russian general dro must have worked from his grave to assist x soviet armenia soviet armenia became ex soviet armenia in and dro died in then dro would have to travel back in time while dead from to wwii to help nazi germany david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia has not learned a lesson in s d p a center for regional studies anatolia and has forgotten the p o box punishment inflicted on it cambridge ma late turkish president turgut ozal
talk.politics.mideast	re freedom in u s a in article apr cs ucla edu steven surya cs ucla edu steven berson writes ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes virginia edu is true to its founding father thomas jefferson the author of the bill of rights in allowing freedom of speach sorry you guys in israel have a hard time with the concept jefferson was not the author of the bill of rights my history books aren t here but jefferson might have been in the group that did not think that enumerating rights was necessary cheers steven berson ucla computer science department look out we have the beginnings of a donnybrook between one of them liberal artsy fartsy western schools and an ossified establishment eastern university tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca
talk.politics.mideast	re happy birthday israel in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hamid reza mohammadi daniali writes hamid anybody has any information about the number of the people have been hamid killed by israel during these happy year does anybody know how many jews arabs christians and others have died in terrorist attacks and wars over these years due to arab rhetoric and rejectionism the number is probably close to at least all these lives wasted because the arabs did not accept the partition plan in tsiel tsiel ohayon jcpl co jp if you do not receive this e mail please let me employer may not have same know as soon as possible if possible opinions if any two percent of zero is almost nothing
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism cy cleveland freenet edu anas omran writes tim clock writes amos shapira writes anas omran writes eh could you please give me details about an event where a neutral observer was killed by purpose by an israeli soldier there are many cases but i do not remeber names the isralis shot and killed a un observer in gaza in the first half of intifada that doesn t answer my question can you give a proof that it is an official policy of any israeli government to kill neutral observers or un personel or others like them i wasn t sure that your original statement was wrong and was prepared to recieve proofs that you are right since i don t follow the events closely your last response made me pretty damn sure that at least you can t give such a proof and you made your original statement without much ground to put it on i believe that most of the world has seen pictures of israeli soldiers who were breaking the cameras of the reporters kicking reporters out confiscating cassettes and showing reporters militery orders preventing them from going to hot areas to pick pictures and make reports even if it s true and in this case i d take it without asking you to prove it it is still far from killing reporters also whenever that happened i ll bet it happened as individual actions by certain soldiers and not as a policy of the government e g see the hawara case where a colonel was sentenced for giving orders to kick arabs as far as i remember bye amos shapira jumper extraordinaire it is true that power corrupts c s system group hebrew university but absolute power is better jerusalem israel amoss cs huji ac il the demon to his son
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism eggertj moses atc ll mit edu jim eggert x g writes not exactly the same but reminiscent of the assassination of count bernadotte who was the un negotiator during the israeli war of independence he was killed by the israelis seems he was being too successful in negotiating a cease fire which would have worked territorially against the nascent israel compared to continued war that operation was done by a small jewish fraction before the state even existed and as far as i remember was disaproved by most of the jews saying that he was killed by the israelis is plain wrong because there wasn t israel at the time and as far as the jews liked the idea of having part of the land you can see their reaction to the un resolution from november and the arab s reaction too no it wasn t that the arabs danced in the streets with doznes of jewish states invading them but quite the other way around bye amos shapira jumper extraordinaire it is true that power corrupts c s system group hebrew university but absolute power is better jerusalem israel amoss cs huji ac il the demon to his son
talk.politics.mideast	re final solution in palestine ahmeda mcrcim mcgill edu ahmed abu abed writes what hamas and islamic jihad believe in as far as i can get from the arab media is an islamic state that protects the rights of all its inhabitants under koranic law this would be a reversal of the situation in which the jews in palestine took control of the land and its mostly muslim inhabitants the borders of the jewish state as drawn by the u n included the areas which contained mostly jews that s what the surveys and the numerous commitees where after when they visited here however whoever committed crimes against humanity torture blowing up their homes murders must be treated and tried as a war criminal the political thought of these movements shows that a freedom of choice will be given to the jews in living under the new law or leaving to the destintion of their choice i never touched an arab during my army service and never voted for anyone more right than the green party will i be spared by these humanist standards or will anyone stop to consider this before sloughtering me i doubt it and not only because of the past record of murdering helpless women and children since the turn of the century up to these days amos shapira jumper extraordinaire it is true that power corrupts c s system group hebrew university but absolute power is better jerusalem israel amoss cs huji ac il the demon to his son
talk.politics.mideast	re zionism i really don t know how you can possibly maintain this hypocritical stance on the one hand you imply that there is a conspiracy of arab americans that warrants the illegal gathering of information on them ie auto license registration information in california and other forms of monitoring including blatant attempts by paid adl agents to discredit an american arab organization by trying to distribute nazi propaganda furthermore you attempt to rationalize this through crude stereotyping by pointing to the wtc bombing in which arab americans had no involvement on the other hand you publish this excerpt which seems to rail against notions of a racial jewish in this case conspiracy and stereotypes if you really aren t the hypocrite you appear to be please explain yourself in article c c jdi news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux cso uiuc edu edward a shnekendorf writes the following flyer was distributed at aipac s th annual policy conference because when we re not in israel we re told to go back where we came from and when we come back to israel we re told to go back to where we came from and when we re vocal we have too much influence and when we are quiet we can afford to be because we we control everything anyway and when we buy something we can afford to because jews are so rich and when we don t buy something it s because we re cheap and because when we are poor we re called dirty jew and ignorant and when we re not we re called called rich jew and jap and when we are visibly organized it s because there is a secret jewish conspiracy and when we re not it is because there is a secret jewish conspiracy and because we re told we re not a people and when we say we are we re still told that we re not and when we marry our own people we re called racist and we don t we re contaminating someone else s race and because we re under fire from the left and from the right and because there are whites who hate us for not being white and because there are non whites who hate us for being white and because anti semitic incidents are rising every year but we re told that anti semitism doesn t exist or that we re paranoid and because we re told to shut up about the holocaust and yet holocaust revisionism is risng every year and when we are obnoxious we re called japs and when we are nice we re told we don t act jewish and because anti semitism is now world wide and because our people is not yet free and because we do not have to complete the work but neither are we free to desist from it for these reasons and many many more we are part of the jewish national liberation movement zionism
talk.politics.mideast	there was no ex soviet armenian government in turkish genocide apology in revision zuma uucp posted via its servile dolt sera zuma uucp serdar argic wrote fool thanks to those who joined millions of turkish and kurdish people fool on april when they remembered mourned and prayed for fool million muslim people who were ruthlessly exterminated by the fascist fool x soviet armenian government between and i tend to doubt this for there was no ex soviet armenian government between and revisionist liar and fool david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia has not learned a lesson in s d p a center for regional studies anatolia and has forgotten the p o box punishment inflicted on it cambridge ma late turkish president turgut ozal
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii rj s virginia edu get thee to a nunnery writes now i have a comment concerning israeli terrorism during the s and s the hirgun and other branch off militant groups did fight the british do get them out of palestine yet i fail to see how this israeli form of terrorism was better than the terrorism practiced now by the arabs these jewish terrorist groups killed innocent british soldiers but not only thta also killed many jews who were in favor of a compromise with the palestinians the irgun killed soldiers which is a legitimate way to drive an unwanted fogriend regime from a country they didn t kill blindly their families or such not as a policy i agree that brits which were not soldiers also were killed sometimes nor they killed arabs just for being arabs in case i have to remind you the difference the majority of the attacks of the arab terrorist organizations was on civilians they even tried to justify their attacks by saying that all jews in the israel served in the army at one point in time or another and therefore are legitimate targets in addition they massacred an entire palestinian village in contributing to the exodus of the frightened palestinians who feared their very lives yes these exceptions were tragic mistakes i wasn t there and don t have reffereces handy but from what i heard your description is a bit carried away most of the vilagers fled with several dozens most of them claimed to be fighters being killed those massaceres are far from being the rule considering that dozens if not hounders of arab vilages came under israeli rule during the same time period i mention this not because i m anti semitic i m part jewish but because this self righteousness on the part of the israelites pisses me off so i m not as critical of the palestinians because they were indeed screwed over by the jews it s a damn shame that the palestinians had to pay for german and european anti semitism what do you mean screwed over by the jews they began the war and didn t accept the arrgenment planned by the u n what did you expect the jews to do pissed off at immature closeminded self righteous semites arabs are also semites amos shapira jumper extraordinaire it is true that power corrupts c s system group hebrew university but absolute power is better jerusalem israel amoss cs huji ac il the demon to his son
talk.politics.mideast	re zionism is racism yes i want to read such a article
talk.politics.mideast	re happy birthday israel in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hamid reza mohammadi daniali writes hamid anybody has any information about the number of the people have been hamid killed by israel during these happy year not sure but the number of israelis killed defending israel is a little more than in the last years and injured you must try to make a mockery out of everything don t you pathetic ed
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism in article amoss apr shuldig cs huji ac il amoss shuldig cs huji ac il amos shapira writes eggertj moses atc ll mit edu jim eggert x g writes not exactly the same but reminiscent of the assassination of count bernadotte who was the un negotiator during the israeli war of independence he was killed by the israelis seems he was being too successful in negotiating a cease fire which would have worked territorially against the nascent israel compared to continued war that operation was done by a small jewish fraction before the state even existed and as far as i remember was disaproved by most of the jews saying that he was killed by the israelis is plain wrong because there wasn t israel at the time look up the facts first post second bernadotte was assassinated in september by lehi under the orders of its three commanders one of whom was yitzhak shamir there is no hard evidence of complicity of the israeli government despite some effort by the un and other organizations us intelligence swedish government to find it however a great fuss was made over the apparent lack of zeal of the israeli government to track down the killers the lehi man who actually pulled the trigger later became a personal friend of david ben gurion the best published account in english is a ilan bernadotte in palestine macmillan amos shapira jumper extraordinaire brendan
talk.politics.mideast	re final solution for gaza the honest answer to your question about arabs who were expelled from jaffa and or who fled jaffa or anywhere else in israel having the right to return is yes unfortunately they have the right to return they may apply for citizenship like any other non israeli and then go to jaffa and try to buy their house back from the jews who now own it and now a question and answer for you can the jews who were born and raised in hebron or their descendants go back to their homes in hebron the answer is absolutely not because they were almost all murdered by their arab neighbors the palestinians now do i think the arabs should be allowed to even visit their homes in jaffa hell no bring back the jews of hebron petah tikva jerusalem safed etc then perhaps i would be in favor of arabs returning to their jaffa homes however seeing as no arab has yet been able to bring people back from the dead i d say that s out with all the hope in the world nissan ratzlav katz nraclaw jade tufts edu
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism in article apr virginia edu rj s virginia edu get thee to a nunnery writes you know ed you re right andi shouldn t be comparing israel to the nazis the israelis are much worse than the nazis ever were anyway the nazis did a lot of good for germany and they would have succeeded if it weren t for the damn jews the holocaust never happened anyway ample evidence given by george schafer at harvard dept of history and even by randolph higgins at nyu have shown that the holocaust was just a semitic conspiracy created to obtain sympathy to piush for the creation of israel just kidding be careful rj s when people start finding humour in the holocaust they often run the danger of exposing themselves for the hateful refuse that they really are harry
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion poor phill hallam baker the tremors are getting worse and his stratospheric typing skills can no longer keep up spelling flame or real sympathy only his hairdresser knows for sure official mossad policy we don t stop until we get disneyland p s the liter cars come from europe and are labeled either bmw mercedes benz rolls royce or jaguar check the guzzler tax price lists
talk.politics.mideast	re go hizbollah ii in bdc b news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes in article apr yuma acns colostate edu bh lance colostate edu writes in article apr utxvms cc utexas edu ifaz utxvms cc utexas edu noam tractinsky writes paraphrasing a bit with every rocket that the hizbollah fires on the galilee they justify israel s holding to the security zone noam i only want to say that i agree with noam on this point and i hope that all sides stop targeting civilians basil absolutely i m sure that civilians on both sides would be pleased if the fighters military guerilla whatever would just take their argument elsewhere find an unpopulated area somewhere and slug it out at that point we will all breath a sigh of relief and cheer for our side in the struggle ah but when you fire at armed folks they have this nasty habit of firing back a simple terrorist could get hurt that way tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca
talk.politics.mideast	re remember those names come election time in c ztk dyi cs cmu edu anwar cs cmu edu anwar mohammed writes i said in article c u qi mz apollo hp com nelson p apollo hp com peter nelson writes besides there s no case that can be made for us military involvement there that doesn t apply equally well to say liberia angola or it appears with the khmer rouge s new campaign cambodia non whites don t count hmm some might say kuwaitis are non white ooops i forgot kuwaitis are oil rich loaded with petro dollars etc so they don t count and let s not forget somalia which is about as far from white as it gets not according to reports i have read it seems that the somalis think of our african american marines in less than complimentary terms using gestures that signify a word i refuse to use seems that even when you try to help people they still insult you that s two in a row care to try for more reb
talk.politics.mideast	re hamza salah the humanist in apr cs brown edu dzk cs brown edu danny keren writes cl cleveland freenet edu hamaza h salah writes well said mr beyer he he the great humanist speaks one has to read mr salah s posters in which he decribes jews as sons of pigs and monkeys keeps promising the final battle between muslims and jews in which the stons and the trees will cry for the muslims to come and kill the jews hiding behind them makes jokes about jews dying from heart attacks etc to realize his objective stance on the matters involved and now he is posting lies about benjamin franklin in talk politics misc seems our mr salah will stoop to any level or is that climb to spread his hate danny keren reb
talk.politics.mideast	re freeman frank benson watch your language asshole another spelling flame aren t you the guy who threatens people on talk politics guns nd amendment yea st amendment nay how d you arrive on tpm in a fruit basket
talk.politics.mideast	where is wayne mcguire did someone prove he s anon anon penet fi and he ran off to restock on pcp miss him sniff
talk.politics.mideast	re happy birthday israel in article c cmd c m news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux cso uiuc edu edward a shnekendorf writes in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hamid reza mohammadi daniali writes you deliberately deleted a line i don t remember how wrote it but i remember what he wrote he wrote happy birth day of israel and i worte hamid anybody has any information about the number of the people have been hamid killed by israel during these happy year not sure but the number of israelis killed defending israel is a little more than in the last years and injured is this means that the number of the people have been killed by israel are so high that you can not keep the track of or this is also a part of zionism ideology that you don t need to keep the track of the people you kill just kill hamid you must try to make a mockery out of everything don t you pathetic ed
talk.politics.mideast	re hamza salah the humanist hey i want my posts forwarded too i can t get my sysadmin to pay any attention to me
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii in article apr virginia edu rj s virginia edu get thee to a nunnery writes i have never seen such immaturity among semitophiles this andi beyer character shows no signs of anti semitism ok you ve already disqualified yourself who ever you are from being objective you all are an insult to you race assuming you are also semitic jews are a people with a common cultural heritage religion and history we are not a race now i have a comment concerning israeli terrorism during the s and s the hirgun and other branch off militant groups did fight the british do get them out of palestine yet i fail to see how this israeli form of terrorism was better than the terrorism practiced now by the arabs these jewish terrorist groups killed innocent british soldiers you don t see a difference between killing british soldiers who were preventing jews who tried to escape the nazis from entering the british mandate and arab terrorist who kill civilian men women and children i mention this not because i m anti semitic i m part jewish that s ridiculuous on atleast two counts first of all even if you identify yourself as completely jewish that doesn t rule out the possibility that you re a self hating anti semite one can always find jews who are uncomfortable with their identities since they only want jews to be cowering victims and are willing to speak up for their enemies secondly the strength or weakness of your arguments does not depend on your identity adam schwartz not affraid to sign my name
talk.politics.mideast	re desertification of the negev center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes here you give positive accurate facts about what happened to the beduins and the land after the creation of the state of israel percent of the negev bedouin were expelled to the sinai or to southern jordan the who were allowed to remain were confined to a territory of hectares in a region were annual mean precipiation was mm a quantity low enough to ensure a crop failure two years out of three the rare water wells in the south and central negev spring of life in the desert were cemented to prevent bedouin shepherds from roaming a few bedouin shepherds were allowed to stay in the central negev but after when the sinai was returned to egypt these bedouin were also eliminated at the same time strong pressure was applied on the bedouin to abandon cultivation of their fields in order that the land could be transferred to the army and now you say noone knows anything about what happened there no reliable statistics exist concerning the amount of land held today by negev bedouin it is a known fact that a large part of the hectares they cultivated in the s has been seized by the israeli authorities indeed most of the bedouin are now confined to seven development towns or sowetos established for them the rest of the article is available from elias davidsson email elias ismennt is so what you basically say is that we know for sure that nothing good happens there now we know for sure that the beduins prospered before the jews arrived and that they were driven away by the jews noone on earth knows about what the jews did there is that what you said could you proove any of the nonsense you wrote btw try asking beduins in sinai how they mis the israelis not to mention that there are enough valotaring beduins in the idf to have at least one full brigade of them amos shapira jumper extraordinaire it is true that power corrupts c s system group hebrew university but absolute power is better jerusalem israel amoss cs huji ac il the demon to his son
talk.politics.mideast	re zionism racism center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes from center for policy research cpr subject zionism racism diaspora a cancer by julian kossoff and lindsay schusman in jewish chronicle london dec leading israeli author and cultural commentator a b yehoshua launched a ferocious attack on diaspora jewry at a zionist youth council meeting in north london last week the diaspora he claimed was the cancer connected to the main tissue of the jewish people he was scathing about its failure to act before the holocaust deleted for bravity jewish values in israel embraced every aspect of daily life unlike in the diaspora where jews had no responsibility for the country they lived in he said he warned that modern hebrew a unifying force for the jewish people would have to struggle for its future especially in literary circles it faced fierce competition from the english language so amos amos shapira jumper extraordinaire it is true that power corrupts c s system group hebrew university but absolute power is better jerusalem israel amoss cs huji ac il the demon to his son
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii in article ri pk f cat cis brown edu dzk cs brown edu danny keren writes can someone elaborate a little on what this libertarian movement is i am not going to draw conclusions from a small sample but so far i recall two self described libertarians posting here both seems to be incredibly ignorant incredibly arrogant all they want is to get people angry posses a lousy sense of humor write incoherently and jump from topic to topic without any logical connection between topics describe themselves as intelligent and knowledgeable although everything in their posters points to the opposite very childish is this some campaign to smear this libertarian party or what wow hang on a second the libertarian party stands for personal freedom lassez faire economics and minimal government whoever is describing the self as a libertarian maybe you were refering to the posters who call themselves civil libertarians are not talking at all about libertarian philosophy adam schwartz libertarian
talk.politics.mideast	re the u s holocaust memorial museum a costly and dangerous mistake in article r pb nkk genesis mcs com jack schmidling arf genesis mcs com writes that federal land and tax money could have been used to commerate americans or better yet to house homeless americans in article c wpad k specialix com jim specialix com jim maurer responds why don t you contribute to a group helping the homeless if you so concerned in article r o d kjd genesis mcs com jack schmidling arf genesis mcs com reveals the true depths of his cynicism i do did contribute to the arf mortgage fund but when interest rates plumetted i just paid it off the problem is i couldn t convince congress to move my home to a nicer location on federal land in other words mr schmidling could care less for the plight of the homeless but is not above using them to score points for his agenda harry katz
talk.politics.mideast	re freedom in u s a in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes virginia edu is true to its founding father thomas jefferson the author of the bill of rights in allowing freedom of speach thomas jefferson is rolling over in his grave because the university is making rules about sex doesn t uva also have a hate crimes rule on the books adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
talk.politics.mideast	re rejoinder questions to israelis in article jcpltyo jcpl co jp ohayon jcpltyo jcpl co jp tsiel ohayon writes in article apr freenet carleton ca aa freenet carleton ca steve birnbaum writes and in the attack was a response sb to years of constant shelling by terrorist organizations from the golan sb heights children were being murdered all the time by terrorists and israel sb finally retaliated nowhere do i see a war that israel started so that sb the borders could be expanded i agree with all you write except that terrorist orgs were not shelling israel from the golan heights in but rather from lebanon tsiel i would contend that there was shelling from both sides of the border starting from the early s certainly the plo did shell northern israel from the arqoub region but israel did much more shelling destroying several south lebanese villages at the very least we can say that both sides exchanged shelling with occasional aerial raids by israel on lebanese villages in any case steve s characterization that the invasion was only in response to years of shelling from lebanon is false israel had many reasons for invading but mainly it did so to install a government in lebanon favorable to israel and it nearly achieved this aim with the election of basheer el gemayel and his brother amin el gemayel but the internal situation in lebanon was too hard to control and predict so israel had to withdraw and amin el gemayel had to abrogate the th of may agreement tsiel tsiel ohayon jcpl co jp if you do not receive this e mail please let me employer may not have same know as soon as possible if possible opinions if any two percent of zero is almost nothing basil
talk.politics.mideast	re freedom in u s a in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes this is actually the law that david irving will hopefully be found guilty under due to his denial of the holocaust it s too bad that this useless centre for policy research isn t in canada it d set a nice precedent to how the law applies in cyberspace steve well canada is wrong if it was in the us the aclu would have made sure that such repressive laws are found unconstitutional do you think the church didn t find galileo s perception of the universe offensive bull shit there is no reason in the world why we can t say that taking views analogous to the kkk s or some such organization is wrong there is no reason why some morality may not be legislated as it is we do not allow theft or murder or rape why should we allow hateful sppech whose only purpose is to stir anger and violence harry
talk.politics.mideast	re deir yassin in article apr virginia edu rj s virginia edu get thee to a nunnery writes this is such bullshit deir yassin was an unprovoked attack on the part of the jews and a massacre defines it best in my opinion the village of deir yassin had had a pact with the jews a peace pact but the irgun purposely broke this agreement in order to scare off the palestinians i might grant that this village housed armed arabs i doubt it but nothing in the archives and available literature indicates that this was a motivating force amongst the irgun the deir yassin massacre was part of an over all strategy to intimidate the palestinians to flee the jewish homeland and contrary to your belief many civilians were killed deir yassin was later advertized by the very jews who perpetrated it because it was useful in getting many palestinians to leave the palestinians were rightfully scared off because they did not want another deir yassin i m not necessarily condemning the israelites here atrocities were aslo committed on the part of the arabs israelophiles should just be careful in thinking that they are and were the good guys in the middle east both arab and jew suck equally rj s you say that there is no evidence that what motivated the irgun to attack dir yassin was its strategic importance in fact begin who was in charge of the irgun wrote that dir yassin was attacked for its military significance dir yassin was merely a battle in the war of liberation people died but the thing was never intended to be a masacre that this hapenned is a tragedy of war not a crime of the irgun harry
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism andi beyer writes what is a shame is that in austria daily reports of the inhuman acts commited by israeli soldiers and the blessing received from the government makes some of the holocaust guilt go away after all look how the jews are treating other races when they got power it is unfortunate this can be turned around the austrians who should feel guilty about their actions during wwii but don t justify their anti semetism by making every israeli action into an atrocity the austrians germans and other europeans have extensive trading relations with the arab block being pro arab is good for business i don t think that ethics has a thing to do about it richard thorne rdt med pitt edu
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii in article ri pk f cat cis brown edu dzk cs brown edu danny keren writes can someone elaborate a little on what this libertarian movement is i am not going to draw conclusions from a small sample but so far i recall two self described libertarians posting here both seems to be incredibly ignorant incredibly arrogant all they want is to get people angry posses a lousy sense of humor write incoherently and jump from topic to topic without any logical connection between topics describe themselves as intelligent and knowledgeable although everything in their posters points to the opposite very childish the libertarians believe in getting the government off the backs of the people so that the free market can solve problems libertarians believe in an end to the welfare state an end to government subsidies of all sorts the basic idea is that the government is way too big and way too expensive and should be shrunk down to a reasonable size they also believe in a complete end to foreign aid including the stationing of american troops overseas we can not and should not be policing the world i agree that the people who come into this group and describe themselves as libertarians seem to posses the charictaristics you describe but heck we re not all like this i m a libertarian and i ve got a great sense of humor adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes jake bony bony com writes in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes waldo cybernet cse fau edu writes all humans suffered emotionally some jews and many others suffered physically do you have a problem with the language i said everyone suffered emotionally because they sympathyzed with the victims of holocaust i wasn t implying that anyone suffered more than the actual victims quite a few people couldn t have cared less about what happened to the jews of europe if they had cared they would have done something what is wrong with you guys regardless of what one says you keep hearing what you want to hear maybe its because many of us who have been on usenet for several years remember tripe like this being posted for all those interested i would like to inform all that binyamin netanyahu leader of the israeli likud party will be interviewed on cnn tonight on larry king live didn t this guy go crying on the zionist tv confessing that he committed adultary and was cheating on his wife a typical jew leader huh this was posted fairly recently there has been much more racist stuff in the past why are we expected to listen to it and remain calm i don t think that listening to racist or anti semetic slurs is an incitement to calm debate perhaps you don t mean to be coming off as highly offensive however the way you have posted seems to be typical of those who have an irrational dislike for israel and jews perhaps if you took a close look at what you ve posted thought a bit about the combatative tone you ve used you would see why people are reacting the way they are adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
talk.politics.mideast	re happy birthday israel in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hamid mcrcim mcgill edu hamid reza mohammadi daniali writes in article c r f s news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux cso uiuc edu edward a shnekendorf writes israel happy th birthday anybody has any information about the number of the people have been killed by israel during these happy year hamid what s this another idiot from mcrcim mcgill edu or are these all the same dope using different accounts jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	changes in israeli society from israeline rabin we must concentrate on qualitative changes in israeli society today s al hamishmar quotes prime minister yitzhak rabin s independence day interview yesterday on israel television rabin said that enforcing jewish sovereignty over the entire land of israel would lead to the establishment of a bi national state i would view it as if the historical destiny of my generation dor tashach the generation that had the great privilege of determining the fate of the people and founding the jewish state had been lost rabin added we must stop dreaming of settlements i e in the territories and focus on qualitative and substantive changes in israeli society to make it a productive society dependent on its own labor the prime minister concluded saying that he would like to achieve a significant breakthrough in the peace process during his government s term naftaly stramer intergraph electronics internet nstramer dazixco ingr com lookout road suite a voice fax boulder co quality is everybody s job and it s everybody s job to watch all that they can
talk.politics.mideast	peace talks resume from israeline peace talks resume today israel to offer palestinians new proposals israel radio kol yisrael reports on today s resumption in washington of the bilateral peace talks following a recess which lasted over four months according to the report israel is expected to offer the palestinians new proposals regarding the authority of the palestinian executive council general elections control over land and human rights issues in the territories israel will express its readiness to give the palestinians control of more land than previously offered according to the radio report one estimate is that israel will give the palestinians control over as much as two thirds of the administered lands as well as broad authority on water issues israel will seek to promote its offer to hold elections in the territories in hopes of strengthening the position of the palestinian delegation to the peace negotiations according to israel radio the israeli delegation to the bilateral talks with the palestinians will offer greater responsibilities to the palestinian executive council allowing it certain legislative capabilities without making it a symbol for palestinian sovereignty u s secretary of state warren christopher invited all the heads of delegations to a gathering tonight it will be the first such event since the madrid conference head of the american team at the bilateral peace talks edward djerejian said that tonight s gathering is meant to demonstrate the u s active role in the peace process naftaly stramer intergraph electronics internet nstramer dazixco ingr com lookout road suite a voice fax boulder co quality is everybody s job and it s everybody s job to watch all that they can
talk.politics.mideast	re happy birthday israel in article jcpltyo jcpl co jp ohayon jcpltyo jcpl co jp tsiel ohayon writes does anybody know how many jews arabs christians and others have died in terrorist attacks and wars over these years due to arab rhetoric and rejectionism the number is probably close to at least all these lives wasted because the arabs did not accept the partition plan in well over in lebanon alone in the iran iraq conflict even if iranians aren t arabs strictly speaking they seem to hate the zionists at least as much as anyone else in the neighborhood is there some correlation perhaps between hating israel and killing off your own people jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	peace talks resume in article apr dazixco ingr com nstramer dazixco ingr com writes peace talks resume today israel to offer palestinians new proposals israel radio kol yisrael reports on today s resumption in washington of the bilateral peace talks following a recess which lasted over four months according to the report israel is expected to offer the palestinians new proposals regarding the authority of the palestinian executive council general elections control over land and human rights issues in the territories israel will express its readiness to give the palestinians control of more land than previously offered according to the radio report one estimate is that israel will give the palestinians control over as much as two thirds of the administered lands as well as broad authority on water issues israel will seek to promote its offer to hold elections in the territories in hopes of strengthening the position of the palestinian delegation to the peace negotiations according to israel radio the israeli delegation to the bilateral talks with the palestinians will offer greater responsibilities to the palestinian executive council allowing it certain legislative capabilities without making it a symbol for palestinian sovereignty u s secretary of state warren christopher invited all the heads of delegations to a gathering tonight it will be the first such event since the madrid conference head of the american team at the bilateral peace talks edward djerejian said that tonight s gathering is meant to demonstrate the u s active role in the peace process i hope i hope that we can begin to involve ourselves in the issues and concerns related to this peace process we have differing opinions certainly on these aspects but it is clear that we all share the hope that resolution of the tensions and conflict will happen as we run to the defense of our side there is no need to constantly involve ourselves in name calling all of us are regularly confused by the other s reactive posting because they spend most of the post applying labels and presenting slogans than in just presenting their honest views then when we react we do the same thing do you as i do agree that this sort of peace process is needed what about the particular points mentioned in the article is what israel is supposedly going to propose good does it go too far not far enough if you don t agree that a peace process is needed what is tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca
talk.politics.mideast	re happy birthday israel hamid mcrcim mcgill edu hamid reza mohammadi daniali writes is this means that the number of the people have been killed by israel are so high that you can not keep the track of or this is also a part of zionism ideology that you don t need to keep the track of the people you kill just kill if you know that the number is so high would you care to provide it to tell you the truth hamid most of those killed by the israeli army were agressors who were invading or attacking israel with the intention of murdering jews and destroying the jewish state thus i have no sympathy for them and i really don t give a damn about how many were killed hamid ed
talk.politics.mideast	re freedom in u s a hm cs brown edu harry mamaysky writes in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes well canada is wrong about hate speech law sb if it was in the us the aclu would have made sure that such repressive laws are found unconstitutional bull shit there is no reason in the world why we can t say that taking views analogous to the kkk s or some such organization is wrong there is no reason why some morality may not be legislated as it is we do not allow theft or murder or rape why should we allow hateful sppech whose only purpose is to stir anger and violence harry i think the answer to mr mayamsky s question can be found in the first amendment to the us constitution amendment i congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances steve steven berson ucla computer science department steven cs ucla edu los angeles ca
talk.politics.mideast	re freedom in u s a bull shit there is no reason in the world why we can t say that taking views analogous to the kkk s or some such organization is wrong there is no reason why some morality may not be legislated as it is we do not allow theft or murder or rape why should we allow hateful sppech whose only purpose is to stir anger and violence harry actually you re wrong as well the kkk is allowed to march and any attempts to curtail their freedom is rejected actually i believe the aclu won a case for them last year morality should not be legilated in a free country like the u s i ll post something on tj and uva under uva for those hoos bashers
talk.politics.mideast	re uva a few things about the university it is more fun than some may admit partying does go on and it has consistently been ranked one of playboy s top party schools but we do study and more importantly learn a lot the overall uva drug use is actually lower than the average college in the u s there is no hate law on the books even though they the forces of pc tried to have one last year by the way a similar law at the university of wisconsin was found unconstitutional last year there is a law against relationship of professors with their students or advisees that just passed thomas jefferson was the sole author of the virginia statute for religious freedom the basis for the first ten amendments though he is not given full credit for righting the bill of rights so someone who picked on me for that is right by the way we re the man in everything sports academics and partying i m sure a lot of other schools are good at what they do as well so don t start mailing me junk i m happy where i am and maybe i ll go to one of y alls medical schools in a couple of years
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii it is all so changed by now but in case any of you is interested in what i actually said i never compared the israeli treatment of the palestinians with the holocaust anyway that is the truth if it matters i was about to forget about it myself since everyone started calling me anti semitic for making the comparison that i never made what i did say was that the nazis didn t start with the holocaust and their initial actions were similar to what the israelis are doing now the jews that were stranded on the polish border since no country accepted them are like the arabs stranded on the lebenese border no trials no hearing just expulsion based on guilt due to race
talk.politics.mideast	re uva ab z virginia edu writes a few things about the university it is more fun than some may admit partying does go on and it has consistently been ranked one of playboy s top party schools but we do study and more importantly learn a lot the overall uva drug use is actually lower than the average college in the u s there is no hate law on the books even though they the forces of pc tried to have one last year by the way a similar law at the university of wisconsin was found unconstitutional last year there is a law against relationship of professors with their students or advisees that just passed thomas jefferson was the sole author of the virginia statute for religious freedom the basis for the first ten amendments though he is not given full credit for righting the bill of rights so someone who picked on me for that is right by the way we re the man in everything sports academics and partying i m sure a lot of other schools are good at what they do as well so don t start mailing me junk i m happy where i am and maybe i ll go to one of y alls medical schools in a couple of years oh my god my spelling and grammer suck i guess i need some sleep i said righting instead of writing what s the chance of that thank god i caught it before everyone started picking on it i hope i didn t cause mr jefferson too much shame
talk.politics.mideast	re freedom in u s a in article apr cs ucla edu steven surya cs ucla edu steven berson writes hm cs brown edu harry mamaysky writes bull shit there is no reason in the world why we can t say that taking views analogous to the kkk s or some such organization is wrong there is no reason why some morality may not be legislated as it is we do not allow theft or murder or rape why should we allow hateful sppech whose only purpose is to stir anger and violence harry i think the answer to mr mayamsky s question can be found in the mr mamaysky s first amendment to the us constitution amendment i congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances steve i do not say that freedom of speech should be banned far from it i am merely suggesting that there are certain things which can be universally agreed to be morally incorrect there are not many such things but there are some as an example murder is morally incorrect the idea that one group of people is somehow racially inferior to another is morally incorrect etc the point is that any action which serves to promote a morally incorrect action should be forbidden this implies that no one has the right to say that an innocent person should be murdered regardless of freedom of speech i may not stand on a street corner and advocate the murder of innocent people the reason for this is that murder is a morally incorrect action in the same way since bigotry is morally incorrect in the narrow definition which we have given it i nor any one else has the right to stand on a street corner and promote bigotry such an enforcement does in no way deny any one their rights as guaranteed by the first amendment it merely ensures that no person may be the target of an attempt to deny him a fundamental moral right such as the right to not be murdered and the right not to be discriminated against i believe mr berson that to blindly accept the constitution is a terrific mistake we must cinstantly question the constitution and interpret it in a way befitting the society in which we live anything short of such an effort would render us little more than trained monkeys who are able to merely repeat what they have heard without paying the slightest bit of attention to the intent of the document in question would you disagree mr berson harry
talk.politics.mideast	strictly speaking jake livni writes well over in lebanon alone in the iran iraq conflict even if iranians aren t arabs strictly speaking they seem to hate the zionists at least as much as anyone else in the neighborhood is there some correlation perhaps between hating israel and killing off your own people perhaps iranians are not arabs even not so strictly speaking dorin
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism rj s virginia edu writes in message id apr virginia edu date mon apr gmt first the following two quite normal phrases why did not anyone venture to answer andi s question in an intelligent and unoffending manner now will we please start having some intelligent conversation and then he shows us what he means by intelligent and unoffending manner and intelligent conversation i have never seen such immaturity among semitophiles deleted lines the only ones guilty here of not backing up there viewpoints with fact are the israelophiles deleted lines you all are an insult to you race assuming you are also semitic deleted lines later he reveals the truth i mention this not because i m anti semitic i m part jewish deleted lines shurely he is an anti semite call it anti jew maybe because he is part jewish e g his mother might have dated a jew who didn t marry her and so she got a little bastard whom she taught hatred he is also a coward since he doesn t dare to sign with his name at the end he signs with a highly intelligent and intellectual phrase pissed off at immature closeminded self righteous semites rj s virginia edu writes in message id apr virginia edu date mon apr gmt you know ed you re right andi shouldn t be comparing israel to the nazis the israelis are much worse than the nazis ever were anyway the nazis did a lot of good for germany and they would have succeeded if it weren t for the damn jews the holocaust never happened anyway ample evidence given by george schafer at harvard dept of history and even by randolph higgins at nyu have shown that the holocaust was just a semitic conspiracy created to obtain sympathy to piush for the creation of israel the nazis might also have sent this bastard to the gas chambers because of his part jewish ness only that he is not aware of it ps i wonder what kind of educational institution is virginia edu could it be the free kkk university of virginia manfredo tichauer m email tichauer valpso hanse de opitzstrasse voice hamburg germany fax
talk.politics.mideast	re freedom in u s a in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes bull shit there is no reason in the world why we can t say that taking views analogous to the kkk s or some such organization is wrong there is no reason why some morality may not be legislated as it is we do not allow theft or murder or rape why should we allow hateful sppech whose only purpose is to stir anger and violence harry actually you re wrong as well the kkk is allowed to march and any attempts to curtail their freedom is rejected actually i believe the aclu won a case for them last year morality should not be legilated in a free country like the u s yes that seems to be the problem even germany now has laws for its military where soldiers are required to disobey orders if they believe the orders are morally incorrect naziism is prohibited in canada germany others how pray tell is canda any less free than the us i ll post something on tj and uva under uva for those hoos bashers harry
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes the jews that were stranded on the polish border since no country accepted them are like the arabs stranded on the lebenese border no trials no hearing just expulsion based on guilt due to race not due to race due to membership in an organization which publically proclaimed it would destroy the state which expelled them and furthermore kill a large segment of the citizens of that state based on race pro choice anti roe e elizabeth bartley abortions should be safe legal early and rare
talk.politics.mideast	re uva in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes a few things about the university why there is no need to go into this it is more fun than some may admit partying does go on and it has consistently been ranked one of playboy s top party schools especially this rivetting piece of information but we do study and more importantly learn a lot the overall uva drug use is actually lower than the average college in the u s there is no hate law on the books even though they the forces of pc tried to have one last year by the way a similar law at the university of wisconsin was found unconstitutional last year as i remember someone did ask if uv had a speach code but really there is no need for this brief survey course there is a law against relationship of professors with their students or advisees that just passed thomas jefferson was the sole author of the virginia statute for religious freedom the basis for the first ten amendments though he is not given full credit for righting the bill of rights so someone who picked on me for that is right by the way we re the man in everything sports academics and partying how wonderful for you i m sure a lot of other schools are good at what they do as well so don t start mailing me junk i m happy where i am and maybe i ll go to one of y alls medical schools in a couple of years tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca
talk.politics.mideast	re freedom in u s a steve birnbaum writes this is actually the law that david irving will hopefully be found guilty under due to his denial of the holocaust it s too bad that this useless centre for policy research isn t in canada it d set a nice precedent to how the law applies in cyberspace in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer responds well canada is wrong talk about generalizations indeed you do sound quite immature if it was in the us the aclu would have made sure that such repressive laws are found unconstitutional what the aclu fighting against an anti hate law you mean that the aclu would support gay bashing racial discrimination and anti semitic violence thanks andi for reminding us that the constitution preserves our rights to such fun activities do you think the church didn t find galileo s perception of the universe offensive probably but galileo happened to be right jews are offended by the holocaust deniers too the revisionists who deny that history even happened happen to be wrong jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii in article apr virginia edu rj s virginia edu get thee to a nunnery writes i have never seen such immaturity among semitophiles this andi beyer character shows no signs of anti semitism you obviously haven t read his postings clearly the only ones guilty here of not backing up there viewpoints with fact are the israelophiles israelophiles is this anything like israelists you re treading on thin ice here you all are an insult to you race now you re falling through the ice barfie we have a playmate for you now i have a comment concerning israeli terrorism during the s and s the hirgun and other branch off militant groups did fight the british do get them out of palestine yet i fail to see how this israeli form of terrorism was better than the terrorism practiced now by the arabs there is a difference between guerrilla warfare and terrorism the former primarily targets enemy soldiers the latter primarily targets civilians and not necessarily enemy civilans at that these jewish terrorist groups killed innocent british soldiers innocent british soldiers like innocent iraqi soldiers the british were executing jewish fighters in what was soon to become the recognized jewish homeland the british to their eternal shame and damnation were sending shiploads of jewish refugees civilians back to europe to be taken care of by hitler by comparison palestinean fighters primarily target tourists schoolchildren babies worshippers shoppers movie goers and other such threatening people early zionist fighters did no such things your comparison is ignorant and odious i mention this not because i m anti semitic i m part jewish but because this self righteousness on the part of the israelites pisses me off so does it bug you that the israelites they used to be israelophiles happen to be right i m not as critical of the palestinians because they were indeed screwed over by the jews are you kidding palestinean arabs who comprise a tiny proportion of the world s refugee population who have almost no justifiable claim to the territory that they desire who have acted as criminals in the international community for decades are being treated like the most aggrieved and deserving minority in existence even after their ignominious support for saddam in desert storm how many other world leaders have addressed the un with a machine gun in hand receiving a standing ovation it s a damn shame that the palestinians had to pay for german and european anti semitism you are now parrotting some of the weakest arguments of the terrorists apologists congratulations pissed off at immature closeminded self righteous semites gee that s a nice name can i call you pissed jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes jake bony bony com writes in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes waldo cybernet cse fau edu writes all jews suffered during wwii not just our beloved who perished or were tortured we all suffered all humans suffered emotionally some jews and many others suffered physically i m just waiting for andi to tell us that african americans should start paying compensation to white americans who suffered from being slave owners do you have a problem with the language i said everyone suffered emotionally because they sympathyzed with the victims of holocaust there were a great many germans poles and others who did not sympathize with the victims of the holocaust but instead participated with enthusiasm in the killing the holocaust wasn t a massacre it wasn t even killing for sport it was an entire industry of death german engineers architects technicians and bureaucrats proudly put their best efforts into as efficient and methodical a killing machine as they could devise and operate and it certainly was something extraordinary please don t bleat to us about how the nazis suffered from the holocaust i wasn t implying that anyone suffered more than the actual victims but what you did do when waldo wrote all jews suffered during wwii was correct him with all humans suffered so what were you implying neither was i implying any wrongdoing on the part of the jews as the cause for the holocaust are we supposed to thank you for your generosity or should we be pleased with your minimal common sense what is wrong with you guys regardless of what one says you keep hearing what you want to hear why is it that when someone writes something simple like all jews sufffered during wwii that you feel the burning need to add commentary regardless of what people write you keep trying to twist things into what you want to hear people with similar tendencies in more extreme form are sometimes called historical revisionists is this something that you aspire to jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re final solution for gaza in article bdccb d news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes tell them to stay home sorry terrible attempt at homour there alternative hell i don t know but its perfectly possible to have objections to a particular policy while feeling that there is no alternative choice sealing off the gaza strip has the interesting side effect of demonstrating the non viability of gaza as an independent state where are all of these people going to go to find work if they are separated from israel if they complain about having to show id cards on the way to work how will they feel about showing passports on the way to work jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re final solution for gaza in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes dear folks i am still awaiting for some sensible answer and comment dear elias i counted at least such answers in public plus whatever private email replies you may have received yet you refuse to accept anything perhaps you are better off in the private world of the center for policy research in iceland where you can define sensible in whatever way makes you feel most comfortable jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	egypt call for fighting fundamentalists objects to pro bosnian steps it seems that egypt is only interested in fighting wars against its own people while objecting to any steps for bosnia i am not surprised who said that mubarak represents egypt hell he does not even represent all the criminals of egypt clarinews clarinet com anwar iqbal writes islamabad upi representatives from islamic nations were considering tuesday a request from bosnia herzegovina for million and weapons to fight the bosnian serbs the only commitment so far is million from saudi arabia which thanks saudia for the pocket change compare that to the liberation of q and to what they gave to some weird causes o k at least they are paying has already donated million to bosnia herzegovina sources on the political committee said delegates were in agreement on the need to help the bosnian muslims but the request for weapons had delayed a decision it may interpreted as violating the united nations embargo on supplying arms to bosnia warned egyptian foreign minister amer moussa mr amr moussa was not worried about international law when he tortured to death many of his citizens and when he shot people praying in a mosque or when he is causing trouble to his neighbor just becasue the cia says so why doesn t he just shut up he won t be involved in any bosnian effort anyway or does the west have to be represented even in an islamic conference the more i hear about the egyptian regime the more i understand the existence of the jamaa islamiyah there after all most of its members and leaders are former and current victims of government torture injustice or relatives of victims in some other places they get psychiatric care and revenge in the courts but all they got is more of the same resulting in a cycle of madness that is initiated by the government with the illicit support of the west who is more concerned about the safety of half naked tourists in conservative neighborhoods than the dignity social justice and safety of the majority of the poor oppressed people of egypt enough said to all apologists to the u s imperialism watch the movie romero three times in a row that might help or shall i say times
talk.politics.mideast	re final solution for gaza in article c v l n bony bony com jake bony bony com jake livni writes in article bdccb d news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes tell them to stay home sorry terrible attempt at homour there alternative hell i don t know but its perfectly possible to have objections to a particular policy while feeling that there is no alternative choice sealing off the gaza strip has the interesting side effect of demonstrating the non viability of gaza as an independent state where are all of these people going to go to find work if they are separated from israel if they complain about having to show id cards on the way to work how will they feel about showing passports on the way to work throughout the years of the israel arab palestinian conflict the internal palestinian popultation has found itself essentially relegated to the lower tiers of the economy given the major kinds of positions required by the israeli and the palestinian economy there are essentially two different ones existing side by side aren t holding down many of the skilled positions so when gaza has to operate on its own there are few residents trained to fill the need for middle and upper management tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca
talk.politics.mideast	re final solution for gaza there are basically three alternatives for gaza to throw the jews to the sea that is basically to make them leave the middle east and go back to where they came from russia europe usa etc to throw the gazans into the sea in accordance with yitzhak rabin s wish and that of many zionists for israelis and palestinians to come to an honorable and fair i don t attempt to say just settlement which would allow each person to live in dignity in his country in freedom and equality i personnaly opt for the third alternative how about you folks elias
talk.politics.mideast	jewish and muslim relations in bosnia found this in soc culture pakistan might be of interest am posting it without the permission of the original poster hope he she doesnt mind by lance gay scripps howard news service sarajevo bosnia herzegovina in this land of historic hatreds a tiny jewish community is braving serbian shells to repay a year old debt to muslims who saved jews from the holocaust ivica ceresnjes president of the jewish community of sarajevo says he and about other jews chose to remain in sarajevo rather than leave for israel to keep a feeding center in the medieval old town district running ceresnjes said that was partly in gratitude to the muslims who hid jews during the nazi occupation and partly to keep intact the centuries old presence of jews living in sarajevo some with guns are defending bosnia but i fight in bosnia by keeping people alive ceresnjes said as a student of balkan history ceresnjes said he saw this war coming and had ready plans to evacuate children and the elderly a year before the war erupted here last april ceresnjes said the jewish center began stockpiling supplies ensuring everyone had passports and arranging for places in israel and europe for the evacuees they were so well prepared he said that only five days after the shooting began the first plane left of about jews in bosnia herzegovina he estimates half have left many of those who stayed behind work in sarajevo s downtown synagogue which has been turned into a wartime feeding center that has so far given away meals the center which has been shelled several times along with most of sarajevo also runs a radio station mail center and distributes food packages sent by jewish organizations around the world while muslims and jews are fighting each other in the mideast jews here say there s a long tradition of cooperation inter marriage and tolerance between the two communities in sarajevo that goes back to centuries of turkish occupation sarajevo s jews trace their ancestry back to their expulsion from roman catholic spain in the community numbered more than before world war ii but only survived the holocaust which was carried out by the pro nazi croatian ustache in yugoslavia many of the survivors were hidden by muslim families in mostar sharon machlis gartenberg framingham ma usa e mail sharon world std com zafar tippu hassan
talk.politics.mideast	re rejoinder questions to israelis in article apr yuma acns colostate edu bh lance colostate edu writes bh tsiel bh i would contend that there was shelling from both sides of the border bh starting from the early s certainly the plo did shell northern bh israel from the arqoub region but israel did much more shelling bh destroying several south lebanese villages at the very least bh we can say that both sides exchanged shelling with occasional bh aerial raids by israel on lebanese villages bh in any case steve s characterization that the invasion was only in bh response to years of shelling from lebanon is false israel had bh many reasons for invading but mainly it did so to install a government bh in lebanon favorable to israel and it nearly achieved this aim bh with the election of basheer el gemayel and his brother amin bh el gemayel but the internal situation in lebanon was too hard bh to control and predict so israel had to withdraw and amin el gemayel bh had to abrogate the th of may agreement basil i was only correcting steve s statement that geurillas were shelling israel from the golan which was absurd the fact that israel did much more shelling was in response to palestinian shelling from lebanon israel has no intention of keeping an inch of lebanese territory israel will continue to fight hizbullah plo fplp etc as long as its northern border is not quiet if the lebanese army can control these elements then i think we can see genuine peace on the israel lebanese border i remind you that a couple thousand lebanese cross each day into israel to work as for the election of bashir gemayel it is true that he was favorable to israel is that why the syrians killed him his brother amin was a syrian puppet if he had not been he would have been dead by now tsiel tsiel ohayon jcpl co jp if you do not receive this e mail please let me employer may not have same know as soon as possible if possible opinions if any two percent of zero is almost nothing
talk.politics.mideast	re peace talks resume in article bdd dfc news service uci edu tim clock writes tc do you as i do agree that this sort of peace process is needed tc what about the particular points mentioned in the article is what tc israel is supposedly going to propose good does it go too far tc not far enough tc if you don t agree that a peace process is needed what is i personally think that a peace process is needed since only through negotiations will the future generations be able to live in stability unfortunately not all think like this we have cases like anas omran hamza saleh jle mohammed reza mehmed abu abed anwar mohammed and others who think that jihad is the only solution i wish that people including myself would have more objective views like tim basil and shai for example and put the rhetoric aside and start discussing substance my view is that israel has made more gestures towards its arab foes than the opposite what have the sysrians given to us or proposed what have the palestinians proposed if the palestinians would just revoke or rewrite their charter or just condemn acts of palestinian violence that would be a good start the palestinians have all to gain from these negotiations its seems though that they are not strong enough to make decisions on their own and are plagued by internal strife that is why we are not getting anywhere fundamentalism is slowly taking over in the territories then it will be too late to discuss issues with the palestinians since they will only vow for the destruction of israel arabs must take example on egypt egypt came to the bargaining table got what it wanted from israel and there is now peace and cooperation between the two countries the tougher you play ball with israel the tougher israel gets tsiel tsiel tsiel ohayon jcpl co jp if you do not receive this e mail please let me employer may not have same know as soon as possible if possible opinions if any two percent of zero is almost nothing
talk.politics.mideast	even today armenian genocide of innocent muslim people continues source channel news at monday march french journalists have seen corpses of men women and children in civilian clothes many of them shot dead from their heads as close as less than meter source bbc morning news at tuesday march bbc reporter was live on line and he claimed that he saw more than bodies of azeri men women and children as well as a baby who are shot dead from their heads from a very short distance source bbc morning news at tuesday march very disturbing picture has shown that many civilian corpses who were picked up from mountain reporter said he cameraman and western journalists have seen more than corpses who are men women children massacred by armenians they have been shot dead from their heads as close as meter picture also has shown nearly ten bodies mainly women and children are shot dead from their heads azerbaijan claimed that more than civilians massacred by armenian forces serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re benjamin franklin in article apr midway uchicago edu thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes hamaza you racist arun cited evidence to show that your so called racist prophecy was a forgery that means that the prophecy does not exist address the sources if you actually care about truth rather than spreading lies bigotry and hatred ofranko coming from a self exposed historical revisionist a self admitted anti muslim and a genocide apologist hamaza should take your drivel as a compliment furthermore you even deny the obvious there was a genocide of the muslims carried out by order of the fascist x soviet armenian government massacres of muslims must be studied in detail because they are the first modern example of the horrible crime of genocide blame must be apportioned to the armenians and their supporters for the murder of muslims the turkish historic homeland emptied of its native population until today remains occupied by the x soviet armenian government today x soviet armenia covers up the genocide perpetrated by its predecessors and is therefore an accessory to this crime against humanity x soviet armenia must pay for its crime of genocide against the muslims by admitting to the crime and making reparations to the turks and kurds the following are the jewish and armenian sources on the cold blooded genocide perpetrated by the x soviet armenian government against million muslim people between and still denying the obvious source stanford j shaw on armenian collaboration with invading russian armies in history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey volume ii reform revolution republic the rise of modern turkey london cambridge university press pp in april dashnaks from russian armenia organized a revolt in the city of van whose armenians comprised percent of the population closest to an armenian majority of any city in the empire leaving erivan on april armenian volunteers reached van on may and organized and carried out a general slaughter of the local muslim population during the next two days knowing their numbers would never justify their territorial ambitions armenians looked to russia and europe for the fulfillment of their aims armenian treachery in this regard culminated at the beginning of the first world war with the decision of the revolutionary organizations to refuse to serve their state the ottoman empire and to assist instead other invading russian armies their hope was their participation in the russian success would be rewarded with an independent armenian state carved out of ottoman territories armenian political leaders army officers and common soldiers began deserting in droves with the russian invasion of eastern anatolia in at the beginning of world war i the degree of armenian collaboration with the ottoman s enemy increased drastically ottoman supply lines were cut by guerilla attacks armenian revolutionaries armed armenian civil populations who in turn massacred the muslim population of the province of van in anticipation of expected arrival of the invading russian armies source stanford j shaw history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey vol ii cambridge university press london pp meanwhile czar nicholas ii himself came to the caucasus to make final plans for cooperation with the armenians against the ottomans with the president of the armenian national bureau in tiflis declaring in response from all countries armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks of the glorious russian army with their blood to serve the victory of russian arms let the russian flag wave freely over the dardanelles and the bosporus let with your will great majesty the peoples remaining under the turkish yoke receive freedom let the armenian people of turkey who have suffered for the faith of christ receive resurrection for a new free life under the protection of russia armenians again flooded into the czarist armies preparations were made to strike the ottomans from the rear and the czar returned to st petersburg confident that the day finally had come for him to reach istanbul horizon tiflis november quoted by hovannisian road to independence p fo ottoman morale and military position in the east were seriously hurt and the way was prepared for a new russian push into eastern anatolia to be accompanied by an open armenian revolt against the sultan hovannisian road to independence pp bayur iii pp w e d allen and p muratoff caucasian battlefields cambridge pp ali ihsan sabis harb hahralaram vols ankara ii fo no fo fo nos and an armenian state was organized at van under russian protection and it appeared that with the muslim natives dead or driven away it might be able to maintain itself at one of the oldest centers of ancient armenian civilization an armenian legion was organized to expel the turks from the entire southern shore of the lake in preparation for a concerted russian drive into the bitlis vilayet thousands of armenians from mus and other major centers in the east began to flood into the new armenian state by mid july there were as many as armenians crowded into the van area which before the crisis had housed and fed no more than people muslim and non muslim alike hovannisian road to independence p fop nos and bva meclis i vukela mazbatalari debates of august babi i ali evrak odasi no van ihtilali ve katl i ami zilkade september source hovannisian richard g armenia on the road to independence university of california press berkeley and los angeles p the addition of the kars and batum oblasts to the empire increased the area of transcaucasia to over square miles the estimated population of the entire region in was of whom percent were armenian percent georgian and percent moslem of the latter group were tatars paradoxically barely one third of transcaucasia s armenians lived in the erevan guberniia where the christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds erevan uezd the administrative center of the province had only armenians as compared to moslems by the time of the russian census of however the armenians had established a scant majority percent in the guberniia it had risen by to percent or of the inhabitants this impressive change in the province s ethnic character notwithstanding there was on the eve of the creation of the armenian republic a solid block of tartars who continued to dominate the southern districts from the outskirts of ereven to the border of persia see also map historic armenia and map administrative subdivisions of transcaucasia in percent turk we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the tartars and then proceeded in the work of extermination our troops surrounded village after village little resistance was offered our artillery knocked the huts into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable and inhabitants fled from them into fields bullets and bayonets completed the work some of the tartars escaped of course they found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border into turkey the rest were killed and so it is that the whole length of the borderland of russian armenia from nakhitchevan to akhalkalaki from the hot plains of ararat to the cold mountain plateau of the north were dotted with mute mournful ruins of tartar villages they are quiet now those villages except for howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the scattered bones of the dead ohanus appressian men are like that p an appropriate analogy with the jewish holocaust might be the systematic extermination of the entire muslim population of the independent republic of armenia which consisted of at least percent of the population of that republic the memoirs of an armenian army officer who participated in and eye witnessed these atrocities was published in the u s in with the title men are like that other references abound rachel a bortnick the jewish times june men are like that by leonard a hartill bobbs co indianapolis memoirs of an armenian army officer translated to english and published by a member of american near east relief organization gives the whole account of the genocide of all turkish and moslem people in armenia organized and executed by armenian government and army also gives account of countless other massacres and atrocities against the turkish people in armenia adventures in the near east by a rawlinson dodd meade co eyewitness account of the same genocide by a british army officer world alive a personal story by robert dunn crown publishers inc new york another eyewitness account of the same genocide by an american officer from sardarapat to serves and lousanne by avetis aharonian the armenian review magazine volume fall through spring memoirs of the chief armenian delegate to the paris peace conference were published in the armenian review magazine in articles from volume fall to volume spring these memoirs include an interview between aharonian and british foreign minister lord curzon in which above mentioned genocide was discussed the official report mentioned by lord curzon is the report of british high commissioner to caucasia sir oliver wardrop serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	while the turkish genocide was incontrovertibly proven by historians in article c d iv panix com mpoly panix com michael s polymenakos writes in one of the categories i believe it was the number of turks feeling european i made a typo which i corrected with another posting right afterwards so what poor poly i see you re preparing the groundwork for yet another retreat from your arromdian asala sdpa arf claims hasan b mutlu and serdar argic has been posting stuff that can only be attributed to typographical errors for the past just love it if that does ever happen look out the window and see if there is a non fascist nazi x soviet armenian government in the east by the way your ignorance on the armenian genocide of million muslim people is hardly characteristic of most arromdians source k s papazian patriotism perverted baikar press boston pp it seems that terrorism against their own co nationals has been a prominent part of the revolutionary activities of the dashnag leaders of the caucasus organized to fight the turks these chieftains have been more successful in their fight against their armenian opponents in turkey and the caucasus very often defenseless and innocent p the fact remains however that the leaders of the turkish armenian section of the dashnagtzoutune did not carry out their promise of loyalty to the turkish cause when the turks entered the war and a call was sent for armenian volunteers to fight the turks on the caucasian front p thousands of armenians from all over the world flocked to the standards of such famous fighters as antranik kery dro etc the armenian volunteer regiments rendered valuable service to the russian army in the years of got a map got a minute source mccarthy j muslims and minorities the population of ottoman anatolia and the end of the empire new york university press new york pp source hovannisian richard g armenia on the road to independence university of california press berkeley and los angeles p now where is your non existent list of scholars and publicly available scholarly sources here is mine what an arromdian some of the references from eminent authors in the field of middle eastern history and eyewitnesses of the armenian genocide of million muslims the armenian revolutionary movement by louise nalbandian university of california press berkeley los angeles diplomacy of imperialism by william i lenger professor of history harward university boston alfred a knopt new york turkey in europe by sir charles elliot edward arnold london the chatnam house version and other middle eastern studies by elie kedouri praeger publishers new york washington the rising crescent by ernest jackh farrar reinhart inc new york toronto spiritual and political evolutions in islam by felix valyi mogan paul trench truebner co london the struggle for power in moslem asia by e alexander powell the century co new york london struggle for transcaucasia by feruz kazemzadeh yale university press new haven conn history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey volumes by stanford j shaw cambridge university press cambridge new york melbourne the western question in greece and turkey by arnold j toynbee constable co ltd london bombay sydney the caliph s last heritage by sir mark sykes macmillan co london men are like that by leonard a hartill bobbs co indianapolis adventures in the near east by a rawlinson dodd meade co world alive a personal story by robert dunn crown publishers inc new york from sardarapat to serves and lousanne by avetis aharonian the armenian review magazine volume fall through spring armenia on the road to independence by richard g hovanessian university of california press berkeley california the rebirth of turkey by clair price thomas seltzer new york caucasian battlefields by w b allen paul muratoff cambridge partition of turkey by harry n howard h fertig new york the king crane commission by harry n howard beirut united states policy and partition of turkey by laurence evans john hopkins university press baltimore british documents related to turkish war of independence by gothard jaeschke neside kerem demir bir sehid anasina tarihin soyledikleri turkiye nin ermeni meselesi hulbe basim ve yayin t a s ankara ingilizce birinci baski the armenian question in turkey veysel eroglu ermeni mezalimi sebil yayinevi istanbul a alper gazigiray osmanlilardan gunumuze kadar vesikalarla ermeni teroru nun kaynaklari gozen kitabevi istanbul dr kirzioglu m fahrettin kars ili ve cevresinde ermeni mezalimi kardes matbaasi ankara t c basbakanlik osmanli arsivi babiali istanbul a yildiz esas evraki b yildiz perakende c irade defterleri d cemaat i gayr i muslime defterleri e meclisi vukela mazbatalari f dahiliye nezareti kalem i mahsus dosyalari g dahiliye nezareti sifre defterleri h babiali evrak odasi siyasi kartonlar i babiali evrak odasi muhimme kartonlari t c disisleri bakanligi hazine i evrak defterdarlik a harb i umumi b muteferrik kartonlar british archives a parliamentary papers hansard commons lords b foreign office confidential print various collections c foreign office turkey correspondence annual reports d foreign office e foreign office political intelligence general correspondence f foreign office ryan papers g foreign office curzon papers h foreign office the eastern conference lausanne files india office records and library blackfriars road london a l political and security five boxes turkey treaty of peace b l p s near east turkey and greece lausanne conference c l p s d l p s french archives archives du ministere des affaires entrangeres quai d orsay paris a documents diplomatiques affaires armeniens collections b guerre turquie legion d orient c levant armenie official publications published documents diplomatic correspondence agreements minutes and others a turkey the ottoman empire and the republic of turkey akarli e ed belgelerle tanzimat istanbul gn kur atase askeri tarih belgeleri dergisi v xxxi dec askeri tarih belgeleri dergisi v xxxii dec hocaoglu m ed ittihad i anasir i osmaniye heyeti nizamnamesi istanbul meray s l trans ed lozan baris konferansi tutanaklar belgeler ankara vols meray s l o olcay ed osmanli imparatorlugu nun cokus belgeleri mondros birakismasi sevr andlasmasi ilgili belgeler ankara osmanli devleti dahiliye nezareti aspirations et agissements revolutionnaires des comites armeniens avant et apres la proclamation de la constitution ottomane istanbul ermeni komitelerinin amal ve hareket i ihtilaliyesi ilan i mesrutiyetten evvel ve sonra istanbul idare i umumiye ve vilayet kanunu istanbul muharrerat i umumiye mecmuasi v i istanbul muharrerat i umumiye mecmuasi v ii istanbul muharrerat i umumiye mecmuasi v iii istanbul muharrerat i umumiye mecmuasi v iv istanbul osmanli devleti hariciye nezareti imtiyazat i ecnebiyye nin lagvindan dolayi memurine teblig olunacak talimatname istanbul osmanli devleti harbiye nezareti islam ahalinin ducar olduklari mezalim hakkinda vesaike mustenid malumat istanbul iv ordu aliye divan i harbi orfisinde tedkik olunan mesele yi siyasiye hakkinda izahat istanbul turkozu h k ed osmanli ve sovyet belgeleriyle ermeni mezalimi ankara turkiye buyuk millet meclisi gizli celse zabitlari ankara vols russia adamof e e ed sovyet devlet arsivi belgeleriyle anadolu nun taksimi plani tran h rahmi ed h mutlucag istanbul altinay a r iki komite iki kital istanbul kafkas yollarinda hatiralar ve tahassusler istanbul turkiye de katolik propagandasi turk tarihi encumeni mecmuasi v xiv sept asaf muammer harb ve mesulleri istanbul akboy c birinci dunya harbinde turk harbi v i osmanli imparatorlugu nun siyasi ve askeri hazirliklari ve harbe girisi gn kur ankara akgun s general harbord un anadolu gezisi ve ermeni meselesi ne dair raporu kurtulus savasi baslangicinda istanbul akin i turk devrim tarihi istanbul aksin s jon turkler ve ittihad ve terakki istanbul basar z ed ermenilerden gorduklerimiz ankara ermeniler hakkinda makaleler derlemeler ankara belen f birinci dunya harbinde turk harbi ankara deliorman a turklere karsi ermeni komitecileri istanbul ege n n ed prens sabahaddin hayati ve ilmi mudafaalari istanbul ercikan a ermenilerin bizans ve osmanli imparatorluklarindaki rolleri ankara gurun k ermeni sorunu yahut bir sorun nasil yaratilir turk tarihinde ermeniler sempozyumu izmir hocaoglu m arsiv vesikalariyla tarihte ermeni mezalimi ve ermeniler istanbul karal e s osmanli tarihi v v th ed v vi nd ed v vii nd ed v viii nd ed ankara kurat y t osmanli imparatorlugu nun paylasilmasi ankara orel s s yuca ermenilerce talat pasa ya atfedilen telgraflarin icyuzu ankara also in english translation ahmad f the young turks the committee of union and progress in turkish politics oxford during the first world war and the ensuing years the armenian dictatorship through a premeditated and systematic genocide tried to complete its centuries old policy of annihilation against the turks and kurds by savagely murdering million muslims and deporting the rest from their year homeland the attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance of genocide in the th century acted upon an entire people this event is incontrovertibly proven by historians government and international political leaders such as u s ambassador mark bristol william langer ambassador layard james barton stanford shaw arthur chester john dewey robert dunn papazian nalbandian ohanus appressian jorge blanco villalta general nikolayef general bolkovitinof general prjevalski general odiselidze meguerditche kazimir motayef twerdokhlebof general hamelin rawlinson avetis aharonian dr stephan eshnanie varandian general bronsart arfa dr hamlin boghos nubar sarkis atamian katchaznouni rachel bortnick halide edip mccarthy w b allen paul muratoff and many others j c hurewitz professor of government emeritus former director of the middle east institute columbia university bernard lewis cleveland e dodge professor of near eastern history princeton university halil inalcik university professor of ottoman history member of the american academy of arts sciences university of chicago peter golden professor of history rutgers university newark stanford shaw professor of history university of california at los angeles thomas naff professor of history director middle east research institute university of pennsylvania ronald jennings associate professor of history asian studies university of illinois howard reed professor of history university of connecticut dankwart rustow distinguished university professor of political science city university graduate school new york john woods associate professor of middle eastern history university of chicago john masson smith jr professor of history university of california at berkeley alan fisher professor of history michigan state university avigdor levy professor of history brandeis university andreas g e bodrogligetti professor of history university of california at los angeles kathleen burrill associate professor of turkish studies columbia university roderic davison professor of history george washington university walter denny professor of history university of massachusetts caesar farah professor of history university of minnesota tom goodrich professor of history indiana university of pennsylvania tibor halasi kun professor emeritus of turkish studies columbia university justin mccarthy professor of history university of louisville jon mandaville professor of history portland state university oregon robert olson professor of history university of kentucky madeline zilfi professor of history university of maryland james stewart robinson professor of turkish studies university of michigan so the list goes on and on and on serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re his book was dealing with the genocide of muslims by armenians in article zanikos sfu ca zanikos kits sfu ca dimitrios zanikos writes you make it sound as if the turks are as inocent as a teenaged virgin about to get married go and read about the atrocities commited by the turks against the greeks during the period of time greece was occupied by the turks now you expect that turks living in greece should be treated like so the greek educational system is also in a shambles history shows that within the last years greeks played that game twice they used istanbul patriarch grigorios in to instigate the morea rebellion that resulted in the massacres of the muslim people again the orthodox patriarch constantine v invited the russian czar nicholas ii to invade the ottoman empire in the name of jesus and save his flock from ottoman rule source the past in medieval and modern greek culture in speros vryonis ed byzantina kai metabyzantina vol i malibu calif p in the words of professor skiotis with savage jubilance the greeks sang the words let no turk remain in the morea nor in the whole world the greeks were determined to achieve to romaiko in the only way they knew how through a war of religious extermination let me further improve this one for you after the ottoman empire lost world war i the british landed in a greek army in izmir to exterminate the people of turkiye are you suffering from a severe case of amnesia the tired and defeated turks rose up formed a national force under the leadership of mustafa kemal and on august they annihilated the bulk of the greek army now wait there is more the greek war of independence brought disaster to the jewish communities in the peloponnesos where the revolution erupted in the jews because of their close association with the ottoman administration were massacred along with the turks the jewish communities of mistras tripolis and kalamata were decimated the few survivors moved north to settle in chalkis and volos still under ottoman rule patras lost its ancient jewish community which was refounded only in nikos stavroulakis athens auschwitz page ix source professor stanford j shaw the jews of the ottoman empire and the turkish republic new york university press new york page the disintegration of the ottoman empire which had been going on for a century was disastrous for ottoman jewry this was the age of nationalism among the christian subjects of the sultan starting with the greek revolution early in the nineteenth century which based on the megali idea or great idea sought to add to greek kingdom istanbul and large portions of anatolia union of which with greece was felt to be the dream and hope of all the success of the greek national movement provided more in fact by the intervention of the great powers than by the efforts of the greeks themselves stimulated similar uprisings among the other subjects in southeastern europe who had long been oppressed not so much by the ottomans but rather by the greek religious hierarchy which dominated the orthodox millet leading first to pressure for religious independence granted to the bulgarian orthodox exarchate in to the serbian church in and to the rumanian church in with subsequent aspirations for and achievement of political independence following page they new nationalist leaders were greatly assisted in their campaigns against the ottomans both by the diplomatic and consular representatives of the major powers of europe and also by christian missionaries who emphasized feelings of christian superiority and hatred for muslims and jews which fortified the religious as well as ethnic bases of their pursuit of independence christian nationalism based as much on religious as on ethnic identity soon resurrected the medieval bigotries which had devastated both jews and muslims and consequently had driven them together in the past vicious anti muslim and anti semitic movements developed involving large scale persecutions and massacres carried out by invading armies by the independent states that resulted also by christian subjects who remained within the empire particularly because of jewish and muslim support for ottoman integrity in fear of their fate in the emergent nationalist states of southeastern europe the results were explosive and damaging the invading armies of russia and austria as well as the revolting nationalists and later successfully established independent christian states committed systematic genocide against jews and muslims throughout the nineteenth century despite great power admonitions to the contrary in the treaties of paris and berlin page as the peoples of southeastern europe achieved their independence their muslim and jewish minorities were systematically persecuted and massacred and those who survived were driven beyond the ever shrinking boundaries of the retreating ottoman empire in a kind of slaughter which had not been seen since the dispersal of the jews from palestine centuries earlier this sort of genocide had begun as long before as the late sixteenth century with the rumanian principalities taking the lead as united rumania did subsequently during the later years of the nineteenth century in the ruler of moldavia peter the lame banished its jews because of their competition with its christian merchants when prince micheal the brave revolted against the ottomans in the rumanian principalities of wallachia and moldavia in he ordered the massacre of all the jews as well as turks in bucharest page the slaughter continued well into the nineteenth century when the greeks revolted against ottoman rule many greek volunteers coming from russia and the principalities to join in the effort slaughtered and plundered the jewish communities along their paths as they went through moldavia and wallachia toward greece page second paragraph when venice occupied the island of chios in its jewish population was either massacred or deported and all jewish communal and personal property was stolen by the native greek population leaving those jews who returned in utter poverty and reduced to begging no longer able to compete with the greeks in trade or commerce page third paragraph jews living in greece and the rumanian principalities suffered terribly because of their support for ottoman rule when the greek nationalist movement philike etairia started its uprising in wallachia and moldavia during the spring of hundreds of jews and muslims were killed by the greeks who lived there as well as by native wallachs during the height of the greek revolution five thousand jews were massacred in morea along with most of the muslim population numbering about twenty thousand in all in tripolizza alone jews were massacred along with uncounted turks reverend john hartley after describing the carnage concluded thus did jewish blood mingled with turkish flow down the streets of captured city the sons of isaac and the sons of ishmael on this as well as on every occasion during the greek revolution met with common fate their corpses were cast out of the city and like the ancient sovereign of judah they received no burial superior to that of an ass jewish communities on the islands of sparta patras corinthos mistra and argos were wiped out by bands of greek rebels along with those of thebes vrachori attica and epirus the surviving jews fled to the island of corfu where jews who had fled from italy and the iberian peninsula had lived in peace and prosperity under the venetian rule since the twelfth century though divided into rival greek and italian communities it was not long however before it too fell victim to the greek revolution leading to savage repression and massacres of jews forcing the surviving members of the two communities to come together for self defense for the first time throughout the years of greek revolution greek nationalists went from town to town on the mainland and from island to island in the agean exterminating all the jews and muslims they could find many along the roads as they desperately fled to safety in what was left of the ottoman empire contemporary accounts relate that the greeks left the murdered jews and muslims lying exposed so their bodies could be torn apart by the buzzards most of the jews who survived these massacres fled across the agean in small boats to izmir thus starting its rise as one of the leading centers of ottoman jewish life during the nineteenth century only in northern greece particularly in the areas of janina and salonica were the jews and the turks able to successfully resist the greek assaults thus saving their populations from massacre as well during the remainder of the th century particularly during the greek turkish war in those jews who remained in greece in the areas of athens chalkis larissa corfu and crete suffered severe persecution and massacre forcing thousands more to emigrate into ottoman territory particularly to salonica and izmir page last paragraph the inclusion in the treaty of berlin of stipulations providing protection for the jewish and muslim minorities in southeastern europe stimulated more popular anti semitic and anti muslim hysteria in all the countries involved with blood libel accusations once again being used as pretexts for attacking and ravaging jewish quarters as well as for new tactics for boycotting jewish shopkeepers merchants and professionals a movement which was quickly adapted by the christian millets in the major cities of the ottoman empire because the bulgarians rumanians and greeks correctly regarded the jews as supporters of the turks both jews and turks were expelled from these countries in equally atrocious and brutal manners their property was plundered and their homes and shops taken over without compensation while the survivors fled in desperation to edirne and istanbul while official statements subsequently were issued granting equal rights to jews little was done in fact and they continued to be persecuted regularly well into the twentieth century page last paragraph things were not much better elsewhere in southeastern europe or the greek islands of the agean and the eastern mediterranean in the jews on corfu were subjected to severe persecution by local greeks due to the revival of the old ritual murder accusations many of those who survived found refuge in ottoman territory with the help of a popular subscription drive carried out in istanbul under leadership of the banque camondo in and and again in and thousands of jews came to ottoman territory as a result of pogroms in russia which went on between and with only slight periods of respite in jewish families arrived in istanbul in flight from persecution in vidin in independent bulgaria the conquest of ottoman thrace and macedonia by greek and bulgarian forces during the balkan wars including salonica corlu and edirne was followed by general attacks on jews their synagogues homes and shops in both countries resulting in a renewed exodus toward istanbul and beyond two reports from salonica graphically described the situation caused by the invading armies all the self interested justifications of the newspapers of europe all the lies which they have used to cover up the truth can never destroy the impression of the terrible anguish which has marked the entry of the greeks in salonica a week of terror and horror one can never easily forget the hellenes now cruelly feel today all the damage that the explosion of hatred by the greek population has done to their cause the mob has shown itself odious and the government weak the incompetence of the greek administration and the horrors inflicted by the soldiers has put them in a terrible situation the consuls guaranteed the absolute safety of the muslims but sixty of them were massacred in a single night it wasn t only irregulars comitacis who massacred pillaged and burned the soldiers of the army the chief of police and the high civil officials took an active part in the events at serres out of houses were burned almost shops were consumed by flames and destructive bombs the jewish population lost all and without even anything to wear is in despair everyone wants to emigrate page as a result of these assaults massacres and forced deportations from the independent countries of southeastern europe the ottoman empire received literally thousands of jewish refugees who joined the muslims who survived the persecution flooding into the empire shlomo rozanes korot hayehudim beturkiyah vebeartzot hakedem hadorot haachronim jerusalem pp cited yitzchak kerem the influence of anti semitism on jewish immigration patterns from greece to the ottoman empire in the th century pp maxime raybaud memoires sur la grece pour servir a l histoire de la guerre de l independence vols paris pp galante turcs et juifs istanbul rev t s hughes travels in greece and albania nd edn vols london ii rev john hartley researches in greece and the levant london quoted in yitzchak kerem jewish immigration patterns from greece to the ottoman empire in the nineteenth century published paper delivered at the comite international d etudes pre ottomanes et ottomanes viii symposium decision making and the transmission of authority in the turkic system university of minnesota minneapolis minnesota august p hartley ibid pp william martin leake travels in northern greece vols london ii errikos sevillas athens auschwitz athens p ix quoted in kerem ibid p documented in kerem ibid pp pearl l preschel the jews of corfu greece unpublished ph d dissertation new york university goerge finlay history of the greek revolution london see also greece ej vii yoannina vasdraveli ee thessaloniki kata ton agona tis aneksantizias salonica pp yitzchak kerem an outline of the history of jews of selonica in hebrew museum of kibbutz lahoma getaot p quoted in kerem ibid p kerem ibid pp the persecution of the jews times london may a ablagon to aiu october aiu grece viii b schaki larissa to aiu august september baiu grece deuxieme serie no er et e semestre elia fraggi larissa to aiu june aiu grece i c larissa aiu represantatives to aiu june july aiu grece ii b jewish community of canea leaders in samos to aiu march aiu grece viii b pearl l preschel the jews of corfu greece unpublished ph d dissertation new york university leon sciaky farewell to salonica portrait of an era new york edgar morin vidal et les siens paris seuil paul dumont the social structure of the jewish community of salonica at the end of the nineteenth century southeastern europe v galante turcs viii rodrigue pp a cohen ecole secondaire moise allatini salonica to aiu paris no december in aiu archives i c mizrahi president of aiu at salonica to aiu paris no july in aiu archives paris i c aiu alliance israelite universelle paris need i go on serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	your armenian grandparents admitted their unspeakable crimes then in article apr leland stanford edu arto leland stanford edu artavazd khachikian writes this machine of idiotism continues to swing mr argic mutlu co is still functioning i was surprised to find it out when i finally looked at this newsgroup and this is just the beginning fascist x soviet armenian government will not get away with the genocide of million turks and kurds and azeri people your criminal grandparents committed unheard of crimes resorted to all conceivable methods of despotism organized massacres poured petrol over babies and burned them raped women and girls in front of their parents who were bound hand and foot took girls from their mothers and fathers and appropriated personal property and real estate and today they put azeris in the most unbearable conditions any other nation had ever known in history your fascist grandparents admitted their unspeakable crimes then why deny them now now the genocide of the truth by the criminal nazi armenians not a chance source men are like that by leonard ramsden hartill the bobbs merrill company indianapolis pages memoirs of an armenian officer who participated in the genocide of million muslim people foreword for example we were camped one night in a half ruined tartar mosque the most habitable building of a destroyed village near the border of persia and russian armenia during the course of evening i asked ohanus if he could tell me anything of the history of the village and the cause of its destruction in his matter of fact way he replied yes i assisted in its sack and destruction and witnessed the slaying of those whose bones you saw to day scattered among its ruins p first and second paragraphs we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the tartars and then proceeded in the work of extermination our troops surrounded village after village little resistance was offered our artillery knocked the huts into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable and inhabitants fled from them into fields bullets and bayonets completed the work some of the tartars escaped of course they found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border into turkey the rest were killed and so it is that the whole length of the borderland of russian armenia from nakhitchevan to akhalkalaki from the hot plains of ararat to the cold mountain plateau of the north were dotted with mute mournful ruins of tartar villages they are quiet now those villages except for howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the scattered bones of the dead p second paragraph the tartars were for the most part poor some of them lived in villages and cultivated small farms many of them continued in the way of life of their nomadic forefathers they drove their flocks and herds from valley to valley from plain to mountain and from mountain to plain following the pasturage as it changed with the seasons they ranged from the salt desert shores of the caspian sea far into the mighty caucasus mountains even the village tartars are a primitive people only semicivilized i can see now that we armenians frankly despised the tartars and while holding a disproportionate share of the wealth of the country regarded and treated them as inferiors the fact that the russians looked down upon all armenians in much the same way as armenians regarded tartars far from proving a bond between ourselves and our racially different neighbors intensified an attitude and conduct on our part that served only to exacerbate hostility p second paragraph our men armed themselves gathered together and advanced on the tartar section of the village there were no lights in the houses and the doors were barred for the tartars suspected what as to happen and were in great fear our men hammered on the doors but got no response whereupon they smashed in the doors and began a carnage that continued until the last tartar was slain throughout the hideous night i cowered at home in terror unable to shut my ears to the piercing screams of the helpless victims and the loud shouts of our men by morning the work was finished p second paragraph as things were the members of the dashnack party were without administrative experience consequently the government they instituted quickly proved itself incompetent to rule by legitimate means the members of the government had been revolutionists working in secret and outside the law when they became a legally instituted recognized governing body with the destiny of armenia in their hands they proved incompetent to do better than resume the terrorist tactics that had characterized their fight against the russian and turkish governments in their outlaw days the outstanding feature of their rule now that they were in power was as in the old days trial and execution without hearing a man evoking the displeasure of the government or of some official would be tried and condemned without arrest or preference of charges against him the method of execution was for a government mauserist to walk up behind the condemned man in his home or on the street place a pistol to the back of his head and blow out his brains this simple way of getting rid of those who were undesirable in the view of the government and soon became a common way of paying debts p first paragraph a soldier succeeded in driving his bayonet through the tartar i saw the point of the weapon emerge through his back another soldier seized a rock and pounded the tartar s head with it the armenian who had bayoneted him sprang to his feet wrested the weapon from the tartar s body and raising it to his lips licked it clean of blood exclaiming in russian slodkey slodkey sweet p second paragraph one evening i passed through what had been a tartar village among the ruins a fire was burning i went to the fire and saw seated about it a group of soldiers among them were two tartar girls mere children the girls were crouched on the ground crying softly with suppressed sobs lying scattered over the ground were broken household utensils and other furnishings of tartar peasant homes there were also bodies of the dead p first paragraph i was soon asleep in the night i was awakened by the persistent crying of a child i arose and went to investigate a full moon enabled me to make my way about and revealed to me all the wreck and litter of the tragedy that had been enacted guided by the child s crying i entered the yard of a house which i judged from its appearance must have been the home of a turkish family there in a corner of the yard i found a women dead her throat had been cut lying on her breast was a small child a girl about a year old p slowly the train of oxcarts lumbered along through the snow the cart jolting and the loads swaying boys ran along the line of oxen encouraging them with shrill tartar cries and belaboring the beasts with sticks in the carts the women veiled as is the tartar way held children in their arms wrapped in blankets and huddled among the goods that burdened the carts they sought protection from the wind and cold a few old men plodded along on foot across the road through the ravine a barrier had been thrown the leading oxteam reached this barrier and halted the gunmen and other ruffians concealed among the rocks opened fire women and children leaped and scrambled from the carts screamed ran and sought vainly for safety this massacre was not complete the armenian soldiers in the near by barracks hearing the firing and the turmoil hurried to the scene that same day the abandoned tartar quarter of alexandropol was looted and completely destroyed p great swarms of peasants who had come out of their hiding places on the retreat of the turks followed our army as it advanced they entered into the city with the army and immediately began plundering the stores that had been left by the turks p terrible vengeance was taken upon tartars kurds and turks their villages were destroyed and they themselves were slain or driven out of the country p the fanatical dashnacks hated the turks above all others and then in order of diminishing intensity tartars kurds and russians p first and second paragraphs russian troops did terrible things in the turkish villages we armenians did not spare the tartars if persisted in the slaughtering of prisoners the looting and the rape and massacre of the helpless become commonplace actions expected and accepted as a matter of course i have been on the scenes of massacres where the dead lay on the ground in numbers like the fallen leaves in a forest they had been as helpless and as defenseless as sheep they had not died as soldiers die in the heat of battle fired with ardor and courage with weapons in their hands and exchanging blow for blow they had died as the helpless must with their hearts and brains bursting with horror worse than death itself p first paragraph in this movement we took with us three thousand turkish soldiers who had been captured by the russians and left on our hands when the russians abandoned the struggle during our retreat to karaklis two thousand of these poor devils were cruelly put to death i was sickened by the brutality displayed but could not make any effective protest some mercifully were shot many of them were burned to death the method employed was to put a quantity of straw into a hut and then after crowding the hut with turks set fire to the straw p first paragraph the tartar section of the town no longer existed except as a pile of ruins it had been destroyed and its inhabitants slaughtered the same fate befell the tartar section of khankandi p second paragraph many of our men had served in the russian army and were trained soldiers we armenians were rich and possessed arms tartars had never received military training they were poor and possessed few arms beyond knives shortly after the killing of the tartars in our village the revolution in russia was suppressed p third paragraph within a few years following the beginning of the movement an invisible government of armenians by armenians had been established in turkish armenia in armed opposition to the turkish government this secret government had its own courts and laws and an army of assassins called mauserists professional killers to enforce its decrees p first paragraph the dashnacks were in continual open rebellion against the turkish government p third paragraph the dashnacks engineered a general revolt of armenians in turkish armenia under the mistaken belief that european nations would intervene and secure independence for turkish armenia p second paragraph the dashnacks were fanatics p third paragraph the dashnacks took advantage of this situation and extended their revolutionary activities into the russian province they instituted a campaign of terrorism and employed threats and force in securing contributions to the party funds from rich armenians a wealthy man would be assessed a stipulated sum refusal to pay brought upon him a sentence of death every member of the party was pledged to carry out orders without question if a man were to be assassinated lots might be drawn to select an executioner or the job might be assigned to one of the mauserists of the party p first paragraph in moments of victory against turks and kurds or tartars they armenians have been remorseless in seeking vengeance p third paragraph the city was a scene of confusion and terror during the early days of the war when the russian troops invaded turkey large numbers of the turkish population abandoned their homes and fled before the russian advance p second paragraph i made a cannon a huge gun to lift which required four men i made balls for it with my cannon the armenians could knock down any of the tartar houses and so they were able to drive the tartars out p first paragraph the tartar villages were in ruins p third paragraph the dead tartar lay with his head in a pool of mud and blood his beard still setaceous and now crimsoned serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re final solution for gaza in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes there are basically three alternatives for gaza annex gaza to egypt annex gaza to israel maintain the status quo partition gaza into a jewish and an arab state i don t necisarily support any of these i just felt like pointing out there are way more than three solutions next time maybe we ll see some research into them adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
talk.politics.mideast	re deir yassin in article apr virginia edu rj s virginia edu get thee to a nunnery writes hm cs brown edu writes in article apr virginia edu rj s virginia edu get thee to a nunnery writes rj s you say that there is no evidence that what motivated the irgun to attack dir yassin was its strategic importance in fact begin who was in charge of the irgun wrote that dir yassin was attacked for its military significance dir yassin was merely a battle in the war of liberation people died but the thing was never intended to be a masacre that this hapenned is a tragedy of war not a crime of the irgun i agree with you harry however you must also concede then that arab terrorism is also a tragedy of war no one is forced to blow up airplanes terrorism is a choice made by people because they do not want to work for peace remember that the palestinians have no other effective target but civilians in order to further their cause there are lots of military targets in israel there are lots of legitamate targets in israel old ladies children and civilians in general are not acceptable targets if the only person you can kill is a civilian you hold your fire if that means you can t kill anyone then you can t kill anyone claiming that civilain targets are acceptable because they are easy kills is rediculous if irgun had to attack civilian targets to terrorize in order that they might obtain some objective i m sure they would have done so did they make a policy of it i also don t exclude irgun s action against british soldiers as terrorism did you mean excuse killing a soldier and killing a civilian are two very different acts the british were showing signs of favoring a compromise with regards to palestine and the irgun and branch off groups made a point to kill young british recruits so that mothers and fathers back in britain would get angry at britains continued presence in palestine no they killed soldiers so that the british government would leave the objective was not to scare civilains but show that the cost of staying was way too high in contrast a terrorist kills civilains to scare other civilains they use random violence against people to make a point that no one is safe until their demands are met an analogy would be the irgun blowing up harrods or downing sounds like a form of terrorism to me and not much removed from arab terrorism thats because you missed the essential point of arab terrorism which is to scare civilains away from israel by killing those who have something to do with israel it is to kill jews because they might be zionists it is to kill people who live in israel because of where they live the targets are rarely soldiers or other people who understand they might be attacked in the line of duty but innocent civilians to underscore the message that no one who deals with israel is safe i ll reiterate again both sides are screwy but i ll favor the underdog in this case because i do think they were a bit screwed oh you mean you favor the israelis outnumbered to outgunned surrounded by hostile states only one of which has signed a peace treaty in years you favor the jews people like leon klofhinger a cripple who was thrown off a boat because he was jewish you support the right of the jewish people to live in peace why thank you for your support adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
talk.politics.mideast	re zionism in article c iqc k cs cmu edu anwar cs cmu edu anwar mohammed writes organization by trying to distribute nazi propaganda furthermore you attempt to rationalize this through crude stereotyping by pointing to the wtc bombing in which arab americans had no involvement huh mohamed salimeh was perhaps a korean how do you claim arab americans had no involvement in the wtc bombing ok his involvement is alleged by the fbi which doesn t seem to reliable these days but honestly there is a pile of evidence pointing to them and it seems those were involved this does not mean that all arab americans were involved nor should they be blamed for it but denying that there were some arab americans involved sounds sorta silly to me adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
talk.politics.mideast	jews in arab countries was re israeli terrorism in article rbn gs usenet ins cwru edu cl cleveland freenet edu hamaza h salah writes in a previous article ai yfn ysu edu ishaq s azzam says in a previous article bc cleveland freenet edu mark ira kaufman says how many of you readers know anything about jews living in the arab countries how many of you know if jews still live in these countries how many of you know what the circumstances of arabic jews leaving their homelands were just curious the last arab country was syria but not all of them migrated due to the jewish state economical and securital dilemma i have no idea what this guy means but the syrian jews are not allowed to leave syria because assad welshed on his promise and is not letting them go israel has nothing to do with it as for the other arab countries there are still small communities left in some arab countries morocco has the largest group i think comprising perhaps just over a thousand but i have lost the exact figure maybe someone will be so kind as to post it there are communities left in yemen which went to the polls yesterday in what might appear to be a free ish election algeria this is a tiny group a couple of leftist intellectuals i think of course syria and lebannon the circumstances of the departure of the jews from various arab countries is controversial in some cases like iraq and i do not want to get into a dispute about it egypt expelled most of its community outright most of the french north african jews left rather than face independence i think that moroccans might have been encouraged by some antisemitic acts but i am not sure someone else around here will know for sure there are claims that israeli intellegence officers spread rumours around algeria that the jews would not be welcome but this is probably just propaganda it would take a very stupid person not to realise the benefits of a move to france as most did or to israel yemeni jews were airlifted to israel those left were rumoured to have another airlift last year but i heard nothing about it so i guess it was just a rumour any i left out except iraq joseph askew joseph askew gauche and proud in the autumn stillness see the pleiades jaskew spam maths adelaide edu remote in thorny deserts fell the grief disclaimer sue see if i care north of our tents the sky must end somwhere actually i rather like brenda beyond the pale the river murmurs on
talk.politics.mideast	re what a hate filled newsgroup ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes geez i think some of these people have been too long on the net you are not going to convince anyone of anything through violent language one wonders why so many have violent tounges i don t know but i think he has a point all i did was ask a lousy question and everyone started calling me names it s all gotten out of hand they start associating me with mengel and yassir arafat whom by the way i think is an idiot gosh guys lighten up and try to at least pretend to be reasonable i still don t understand what has been so antisemitic about the stuff i posted i think you guys are just looking to get offended and in that sense need to get a life mohammad r khan khan nova gmi edu after july please send mail to mkhan nyx cs du edu
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes adam endor uucp writes in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes the un has tried many times to condemn israel for its gross violation of human rights the un has also failed to condemn gross violations of human rights in many other places around the globe and in the middle east thus leading many people to conclude that the un is biased in whom in chooses to condemn a short incomplete list of things the un didn t even consider condemning incident security council response hindu moslem clash in india over killed none gassing to death of over kurds by none iraqi air force saudi security forces slaughter none pilgrims in mecca killing by algerian army of demonstrators none intrafada arabs killing arabs over killed none civilians slaughtered by government none troops in hama syria killing of palestinians by jordanian troops none thousands expelled sept moslems killed in egypt none killed in egyption bread riots none border and rocket attacks against israel by none the plo in alone munich israeli athletes slaughtered none ma alot children killed in plo attack none israel coastal bus attack dead wounded none syria kills palestinians none lebanon over dead since none yemen killed in two weeks none sudan tens of thousands of black slaves none civil war toll million killed million refugees tienenman square massacre none rumania killed none pan am disaster carried out by the p l o none northern ireland none cambodia none soviet occupation of afghanistan none american riots at attica watts newark kent state none israel destroys iraqi reractor israel condemned israeli police protect israeli worshipers condemned against arab mob anti jewish rioters killed syrian soldiers slaughter christian soldiers none after they surrender wow if you were the only source of news around the world it would seem that israel is being treated unfairly ok you don t like what i have to say would you care to demonstrate how the above list or any expanded version of it you chose to post demonstrates fairness in the actions of the un wrt israel luckily that is not the case i suggest reading european papers rather than israeli propaganda arab papers wouldn t hurt either to see the propaganda of the other side you make the odd assumption that i read israeli papers not european ones my main source of news is the economist a london based magazine also i do on rare occaisons read arab papers but its hard to find english language papers from arab countries here anyway you are an example of what happens when people chose what to read don t get me wrong it is perfectly within your rights just don t go off acting like you re objective have i ever claimed to be objective i pointed out with a item list that israel is condemned for actions that other nations are not condemned for you go off and attack me for reading only israeli newspapers if you d like to debate this please do if you d like to make ad hominum attacks feel free to do that too but try not to mask one as another adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism tclock orion oac uci edu writes ob in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes adam endor uucp writes in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes the un has tried many times to condemn israel for its gross violation of human rights the un has also failed to condemn gross violations of human rights in many other places around the globe and in the middle east thus leading many people to conclude that the un is biased in whom in chooses to condemn a short incomplete list of things the un didn t even consider condemning incident security council response gassing to death of over kurds by none iraqi air force civilians slaughtered by government none troops in hama syria killing of palestinians by jordanian troops none thousands expelled sept syria kills palestinians none yemen killed in two weeks none sudan tens of thousands of black slaves none civil war toll million killed million refugees rumania killed none northern ireland none cambodia the killing fields million murdered none syrian soldiers slaughter christian soldiers none after they surrender adam shostack adam das harvard edu wow if you were the only source of news around the world it would seem that israel is being treated unfairly luckily that is not the case i suggest reading european papers rather than israeli propaganda arab papers wouldn t hurt either to see the propaganda of the other side anyway you are an example of what happens when people chose what to read don t get me wrong it is perfectly within your rights just don t go off acting like you re objective i m unclear here are you saying that these events did not occurr as you know the un neither condemned nor expressed outrage at any of the events listed i retained those that reflected policies of murder and abuse is that an irrelevent fact to you while i do expect israel s abusive policies to be condemned where appropriate are you saying that you do not notice any degree of selective morality on the un s part do you also find it convenient and easy to blithely ignor particular abhorrant acts simply because the perpetrators don t happen to be on your bad guys list tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca i have to say i think this is the first time there has been something posted that opposed me without making personal insults congradulations tim i think the other people answered you on most of the factual parts esp about the internal conflicts policy israel very often gets away with more than most other nations due to u s vetos while i am not familiar with every instance i know that the reason saudi arabia was not condemned for killig the pilgrims was that the pilgrims were iranian yes the un is biased but mostly in favor of the us and its allies including israel saudi arabia and pakistan and against outlaw countries like iran and more recently iraq far be it from me to support the repressive governments there but i think they get more slack than israel for things they do wrong again the reason some condemnations don t occur lies in the race or country of the victims the gassed iraqi kurds got associated with iran in the war and since iran was perceived as worse than iraq no condemnation resulted the palestinians killed by arab countries involved another case of who cares it seems that until very recently no one cared about how many palestinians died anywhere including in israel and the occupied territories again i appreciate the lack of personal insults
talk.politics.mideast	stretching from the adriatic sea to the great wall of china in the following report turkey eyes regional role ankara turkey ap april we find in the last paragraph turanist although premier suleyman demirel criticized ozal s often turanist brash calls for more turkish influence he also has spoken turanist of a swath of turkic peoples stretching from the adriatic turanist sea to the great wall of china who does demirel think he is fooling it seems at both ends of his envisioned pan turkic empire the balkans and the caucasus turkey s fascist boasts are being pre empted i would suggest turkey let the world feel some of their grey wolf teeth and attempt to stretch from the adriatic to china turkey will have cried wolf just once too much david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia has not learned a lesson in s d p a center for regional studies anatolia and has forgotten the p o box punishment inflicted on it cambridge ma late turkish president turgut ozal
talk.politics.mideast	re volume in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes p p s just to clear up something i don t think than the jews are necessarily any worse than other people how generous andi thanks for your validation adam schwartz
talk.politics.mideast	re egypt call for fighting fundamentalists objects to pro bosnian steps in article benali alcor benali alcor concordia ca ilyess b bdira writes islamabad upi representatives from islamic nations were considering tuesday a request from bosnia herzegovina for million and weapons to fight the bosnian serbs the only commitment so far is million from saudi arabia which thanks saudia for the pocket change compare that to the liberation of q and to what they gave to some weird causes o k at least they are paying damned if you do and damned if you don t has already donated million to bosnia herzegovina sources on the political committee said delegates were in agreement on the need to help the bosnian muslims but the request for weapons had delayed a decision it may interpreted as violating the united nations embargo on supplying arms to bosnia warned egyptian foreign minister amer moussa mr amr moussa was not worried about international law when he tortured to death many of his citizens and when he shot people praying in a mosque or when he is causing trouble to his neighbor just becasue the cia says so why doesn t he just shut up he won t be involved in any bosnian effort anyway or does the west have to be represented even in an islamic conference just for the record egyptian troops were one of the first to be stationed there i can t remember the exact date but it was late last year in fact they lost at least one man there as far as i know barrak
talk.politics.mideast	accounts of anti armenian human right violations in azerbaijan accounts of anti armenian human right violations in azerbaijan prelude to current events in nagorno karabakh they beat up the husband dragged the wife outside and stood her naked next to our burning things her husband was lying at her feet on the ground the crowd shouted look at the naked armenian they were going to throw the poor woman into the fire mamma wouldn t allow it but i went to the window and saw her standing there and they took skewers that had been heated in the fire and stuck them into her body depositions of zinaida poghosovna hakopian born dispatcher kavkazenergoremont electric booster station her daughters gayane gaya vazgenovna hakopian born orderly sumgait municipal hospital no diana vazgenovna hakopian born second year student sumgait secondary school no residents at building apartment microdistrict no sumgait azerbaijan zinaida on march we arrived in yerevan and the next day they registered us at the train station and took us to the boarding house the conditions were wonderful thanks to our armenians who received us but it s not relaxing all the same i don t know how everyone else feels about it but for me it s torture we don t have a place to call our own i had a two bedroom apartment in sumgait my children went to school and we lived well in friendship it s painful that in our times in in the soviet period people can break into our apartment and try to kill me and my children in whom i ve put all my efforts and my whole youth everything was going well for us my older daughter was studying at the institute the middle one was preparing to enter medical school and was interning as an orderly and my youngest had been sick for a long time but had returned to health i have been though a lot in my life it s been seven years since i lost my husband i raised my children by myself lots of women have similar fates but there s nothing to be done about it but i can t control myself when i remember what happened in sumgait on february and it was just a horror it s indescribable on february our relative ira came to visit us she s better friends with my oldest daughter and so right away she asked where s vika i say vika s off in pirkuli on a trip for three days she s supposed to come back tomorrow my middle daughter gaya had baked a cake and we sat there talking and laughing drinking tea then gaya and diana went to walk ira home they left and a few minutes went by suddenly i hear noise i raced out to the balcony our balcony is right across from the bus station we live at the corner of mir and druzhba streets i look and see that there are hoards of people near the bus station and they re all shouting something what they re shouting i can t understand our neighbor is standing on his balcony too i ask nufar what s happened he says i don t know i can t figure it out either i got scared the kids had gone outside and i wanted to run after them but then there was a knock at the door i open the door and it s the kids mamma says gayane you ll never believe what s going on out there it s awful ira says aunt zina they re shouting karabagh karabagh karabagh is ours we didn t know what was going on they re threatening to drive out the armenians and slaughter them i called my brother and his wife answered the phone i said aunt tamara don t worry ira is staying here with us and we ll see her home later i couldn t shut my eyes all night long even until morning i was worried about vika my god what was going on what had happened gayane that day on the th we stood on the balcony and observed what was happening although mamma wouldn t allow us to watch all of it there weren t yards between our building and the bus station we could see and hear everything perfectly they were stopping buses dragging people out leading all the passengers out looking for armenians if they found an armenian on the bus then it started i don t know what to call it zinaida it s called slaughter gayane the mob would descend on people and beat them i don t know if they were killing them or not but when they left them they lay still not moving as though nothing was left of them one person was lying there and they started dragging him the police were standing right there to the side not doing anything they didn t take any steps to calm that mob it was awful to stand there and watch it all from the balcony and you couldn t go anywhere somehow you wanted to be able to see everything so as to tell of it later we wanted to leave sumgait that day what kept us was the idea that we live in the soviet union and that something would be done about it where in the world was our government zinaida we couldn t leave town of course because our older daughter wasn t home and at the same time i was terrified for gaya and diana on sunday morning when i went to see ira home our neighbor said zin you know they went into valodya s house and smashed everything he had they murdered his father and two sons valodya is our neighbor he s an armenian he lives on the first floor i think my god what is happening and in broad daylight i saw ira home and when on the way back i came across a mob shouting slay the armenians karabagh is ours this was at o clock in the afternoon on the way i stopped into a bread store and the saleswoman says they beat our store manager they thought he was an armenian and they beat him but he was an azerbaijani and i asked did they kill him she says no he s in serious condition i left there and started to walk home on that same street but the mob started moving in my direction i turned off the street and went down the little way that goes toward the sputnik store there i met another crowd but these weren t bandits these were our people from sumgait i was so frightened that i walked without knowing where was going i couldn t feel my legs or the ground under my feet i was walking and there was a boy standing before my eyes this was on the th around evening time he ran under our balcony and the mob surged toward him shouting he s an armenian get him he wore a black coat they grabbed him that boy near the bus stop i saw it they grabbed him by the legs and struck his head on the asphalt i made it home but i just couldn t calm down my oldest daughter was in my thoughts i was thinking my daughter s coming home now they ll stop her bus and she ll be gone there s no police no protection nothing it s like they had all died there s no one nothing no authorities whatsoever i can t even find the words for it i look and see an ikarus arriving before going to the bus station they stop near our place across from the kosmos movie theater so this ikarus stops there and the gang is yelling the azerbaijanis are running toward it yelling armenians out and i see them take the armenians and beat them killing them i can t watch it any more it was a nightmare i just couldn t watch it but gaya was standing there watching it and i scolded her she says mamma i have to see it i have to know what s happening i have to see it with my own eyes so i can tell our people of it later so our children will know gayane we saw a great deal on the th they caught no less than people before my eyes i can t say for sure if they killed them or not zinaida there were too many people there the mob was too big you couldn t make anything out but i saw that boy in the black coat with my own eyes he was or years old gayane i think he was older probably about a tall fellow a big guy in a coat he was walking quickly but when they shouted that he was an armenian he tore off running and the mob went after him they caught him right under our balcony i don t know i don t think there could have been much left of him after that you can imagine what happens when a crowd attacks one person it was a mob big angry and featureless you know there was a similarity in the way they were dressed mostly they were wearing long black coats you couldn t even tell them apart they were all wearing black and they all looked alike zinaida when they picked up that boy and struck him against the asphalt and he cried mamma i ran into the room i couldn t watch any longer an awful lot was going on right then in various places it wasn t only that boy several people were being beaten up you couldn t see all of it at once but when that boy cried mamma i immediately started watching only him gayane on that first day it went on from about six in the morning until twelve at night at midnight they dispersed and the police took their place they were scattered about in all districts but how can you explain the fact that by morning when it had already started getting light around seven o clock our police were gone the police disappeared and yielded their positions to the bandits in the morning they started gathering at our inter section again at the bus station and at the entrance to downtown from morning on all the roads and mass transit stops were covered and by nine o clock you couldn t even see the ground there were thousands of people in the crowd again they began stopping vehicles and checking for armenians zinaida they had signals i realized that when i noticed that they made a cross with their arms they crossed their arms over their heads the cross evidently meant that the vehicle had armenians in it they let the azerbaijani cars through and they stopped the armenian ones and started their pogrom gayane they stopped a white zhiguli and asked the driver what his nationality was he got out and said they were from baku but what is your nationality he says armenian they immediately start shouting ermeni ermeni and he says what s going on i m coming from baku i don t live in sumgait doesn t matter who cares if you re from baku or sumgait anyway the crowd pounced on him and started beating him and they dragged a woman his wife probably out of the car at this point the police came and took the two and led them away then the mob started smashing the car and then burned it the flames blazed it was a horrible fire then everyone ran away they thought the car was going to explode about minutes later another car comes along a green moskvich they ran up shouting ermeni ermeni but this time they didn t pull the people out of the car they didn t beat them maybe they burned them along with the car because no one emerged from the flames the neighbor boy vakhit was standing on the balcony too acquaintances of his walked by below and he asked them and they said yes they burned them along with the car about two hours later a whole wedding procession came by and there was a doll on the first car we thought they were armenians but the cars started to honk loudly they were azerbaijanis and they were immediately allowed through zinaida the driver waved his hand as if to say get out of the way the whole crowd parted and the procession passed through freely gayane by the way at the marriage hall which is right in the courtyard of our building there was a wedding that day the azerbaijanis were cele brating and dancing on the streets there was grief and death people were being killed and people were celebrating the whole time zinaida before the apartment itself was attacked i asked gaya to call and find out when the tourist bus was supposed to arrive she went to her girlfriend s in the building she lives in the first entryway on the third floor gaya came back and said mamma the bus is supposed to come around eight after eight you can imagine what i was feeling how hard it was vika knew nothing about what was happening and was coming to meet her death then i heard shouting i raced to the window and see that the belongings of our neighbors from the second entryway are being thrown outdoors they were thrashing about with the pillows and the feathers were lying like snow i started to cry i am walking around the room crying wailing vika s not here what will come of her gaya of course was consoling me mamma nothing will happen to her don t worry calm down she s in good company they ll look out for her diana i saw the green car burn the car was burning when we went out onto the balcony gaya pushed me away telling me to get off the balcony i left then they came up to the balcony and asked if there were any armenians here zinaida you re right i forgot about that that was on the th diana there s a small grassy area in front of our balcony there are trees planted there the mob asked if there were any armenians in the building all the neighbors said no there are no armenians here there weren t a lot of armenians in our building but there weren t just a few armenian families either gayane they fell upon the apartments on the th there were terribly many of them our courtyard is huge and it was completely filled with them zinaida katusev had made an appearance on television earlier he said that two people azerbaijanis had been killed in karabagh and when he said that you know how bees sound have you heard how they buzz it was like the buzzing of millions of bees and with this buzzing they flew into our courtyard howling and shouting i don t know how to describe it by this point we were afraid to watch from the balcony but when i looked out of the bedroom window the znaniye bookstore is down there and armenians live on the second and fourth floors i saw their things being thrown out the windows i realized that they would be upon us any minute i shouted to gayane gaya hide the gold that s honestly what i told my child i grabbed diana i didn t know what to do vika still wasn t home and it was already getting dark i was afraid to look at the time because i was already horrified as it was gayane just in case we changed the television channel from the moscow station to the azerbaijani one zinaida and turned it up loud gayane we never listened to azerbaijani music it just didn t do much for us in all those years we almost never listened to it but sometimes we would watch some entertainment show or film on azerbaijani television and that was it and here we had it turned up full blast so they would think we were azerbaijanis zinaida well you can imagine they re slaughtering armenians robbing them and we re listening to this concert music from baku our azerbaijani neighbors suggested we do it they knocked on the door and told gaya to turn on azerbaijani music but we already had it on anyway turn on the lights they told us so they will think you re not armenians they re saying the armenians are afraid to turn on their lights they re hiding gayane apparently there was some kind of arrangement because we noticed that the lights were off only in armenian apartments that is the azerbaijanis were warned and every last one of them had their lights on when we turned the lights off two of our neighbors came immediately and later another one turn on the lights they told us please nothing will happen be calm nothing will happen zinaida we won t allow them to come into your apartment gayane we believed those people we had never done anything bad to them zinaida after the whole nightmare about march before we left for armenia when i was coming into the building they were all crying the azerbaijanis were crying saying can it be there is no god how could they raise their hands against your family you never did anyone any harm you never refused anyone anything not in hard times or in time of fortune or in time of mourning how could they give you away how could they sell you down the river they really had given us away some of them protected us but others gave us away they sold us down the river gayane i was wearing slacks that day and when it all began i became cautious for some reason and i changed my clothes azerbaijani women don t wear pants young armenian and russian girls in sumgait wore pants but the azerbaijanis found that very strange and i thought i better put on a skirt otherwise they won t believe me if i told them we were azerbaijanis there was nothing else we could do no other way out i was forced to turn myself into god knows who i let my hair down tousled it and threw a scarf over my head zinaida and she told me mamma you hide take diana and go into the other room you two look more like armenians they ll figure out that we re armenians right away but how could i go away and leave her there gayane i went out onto the balcony it worked out better that way we were the only armenian family in the fourth entryway this gave us hope we were the only ones the neighbors wouldn t let them in they the azerbaijanis would fear for themselves and for their children i looked and saw someone crawling up on the balcony from below it was easy to get up onto our balcony when we would lose the keys the neighbors would let up into their places and we would crawl across onto our balcony and get in that way so i turned around and saw a guy with a knife on our balcony he looks at me and shouts what nationality are you here zinaida at the same time they were knocking on the door gayane what nationality are you he s shouting well at first i was frightened but then i got control of myself and answered in perfect azerbaijani you should be ashamed of yourself asking a question like that can t you see i m an azerbaijani if i were an armenian would i come out to meet you face to face and look you in the eyes he looks at me and tells the people with him yes azerbaijanis live here from below they tell him check it out it can t be they have to be armenians and he asks me again what nationality are you i say can t you see i started fuming i could not say anything else you re blind that s for sure you can yell all you want but that won t make us armenians i hear them breaking down our door and mamma went toward the door i say i don t have time to deal with you they re breaking down our door go to the door and ask who is it they answer open up i say wait why are you breaking the door what s going on i m opening up we never locked the lower lock it was broken but now they had locked it out of fear and i couldn t get it open i say wait i m looking for the key i opened the door it was almost broken down already i opened the door and they burst in i say what s going on why are you breaking down our door zinaida then they started climbing in from the balcony they re shouting why don t you open the door and i say well you ve already come in the balcony then diana sees their knives runs into the bathroom and closes the door gaya cries out mamma diana ran into the bathroom i ran to the door and forgot that we were pretending to be azerbaijanis and said in armenian diana open the door gaya tried to calm them down and i m shouting with tears in my eyes for diana to open the door diana i was sitting on the couch with my doll little red riding hood that guy climbed in from the balcony with a big knife with a yellow handle they put it up to mamma s stomach i ran to the bathroom opened the door and slammed it behind me i was frightened and started to cry i shouted mamma they want to kill you and then then they started shouting give us your passports and gaya says what do you need passports for we re azerbaijanis gayane i tried to convince them that we were azerbaijanis i was trying everything i could i could get on my knees and plead i could humble myself because at that moment i was worried about other lives than just my own to be honest i didn t care about anything else as long as my little sister would survive her life and health had cost us so dearly i tell them what don t you understand anything they started shouting they were tremendously excited shouting with terribly loud voices saying that in stepanakert their girls were being killed raped and tossed around with pitchforks why shouldn t they do the same to us i said who s doing all that who is doing it some armenians what does that have to do with us give me the knife i ll cut my own face now you calm down they tell me zinaida i told them why didn t you deal with them there there in karabakh nothing has happened here no one has been fighting here not we with the armenians nor they with us why didn t you give it right back to them there what ve we got to do with this i got confused i had been saying that we were azerbaijanis but suddenly i started speaking as though i were an armenian but they didn t notice one of them was next to me with a knife at my breast and he says to the others what pretty girls he meant gaya and my year old diana i was terrified gaya started assuring them that we were azerbaijanis one guy stood in the doorway and gave us bad looks gayane he demanded the passports i said young man i don t have my passport here he says let s have the passport we won t believe you without your passport and one of them started hurriedly searching for documents they turned the wardrobe in the other room upside down took the picture off the wall and started pulling the clothes off their hooks yelling and shouting passport passport they all started yelling there was so much noise in the apartment they were all shouting my hair stood on end suddenly i said listen my papa died days haven t passed yet we have a muslim household we re in mourning you should be ashamed of yourselves you ve disgraced your honor and then mamma started to cry zinaida i started crying my husband died days haven t yet passed aren t you ashamed of yourselves in fact my husband had died seven years earlier in we re in mourning and you burst in here demanding docu ments the documents are at the housing office i m filing for my pension well it seemed like they believed us then one guy said they re lezgins can t you see there are no men here only women leave another fellow in the group agreed with him he also said that we were lezgins but a third said no they re armenians well the other two convinced him i don t know how and all the rest of them listened to them too there were about of them if not more all in our three room apartment even the entryway was filled they started leaving yes we re lezgins we re lezgins they started leaving and one of them took our tape recorder with him and the one who had first called us lezgins says leave that what are you doing they seemed to obey that guy gayane he was tall wearing baggy jeans and a coat zinaida with a little moustache i think gayane no he didn t have a moustache he was tall with brown hair he wasn t a bad looking sort he didn t have anything in his hands zinaida he stood at the threshold gayane yes he didn t look like a bad guy and you know his face seemed familiar to me i had seen him somewhere and more than once but i can t remember where when he came in i was stupefied i had a premonition that he wouldn t be able to remain indifferent when he said that we were lezgins and that they should leave such gladness started to glow inside of me hope they continued to argue on their way out some said they re armenians all the same and that fellow answered even if they are armenians it s shameful the father died they re mourning there s nothing but women in the house there s no men we should stay out of the apartment what do you mean stay out we can go in there and he said no we should stay out they re lezgins we re leaving here the three of them protected us zinaida no the two of them the one in the short coat and the one in the grey suit who stood at the threshold about or years old well they were all young really the two of them defended us diana three three zinaida do you remember the third one diana diana yes he was wearing dark clothes gayane the third one was the one who came back he wore a long brown coat diana he wore a long darkish brown coat and his hair was dark too when they left they told him downstairs that those women were armenians and ran back and said that they were going to kill us zinaida they had all left and we had started to calm down a little and i closed the door and then there is a knock i told gaya take diana and go into the other room my daughters went into the dining room and i opened the door there was a guy there who said run hide they re coming to kill you now we ran up to the third floor we had some good neighbors up there azerbaijanis i sent the kids and stood there alone not knowing what to do i was so far gone out of a whole room i couldn t even think of anything to take i even forgot to take my work documents at the time i had been preparing a report to send to baku and the documents were at home i couldn t see anything i could only see vika my older daughter i sent gaya and diana upstairs and stood there asking that fellow should i close the door and leave everything like this he says what do you mean door get out of here they re coming to kill you what are you standing there for and i ran after the children gayane we barely had time to get up to the third floor when they burst into our apartment and started shouting where are the armenians we were already at the neighbors they had an infant at the time and the neighbor said don t you worry i m not letting anyone in this apartment no matter what zinaida on the third floor there i started asking the folks our neighbors to go meet vika the bus was due to arrive at eight o clock i dissolved in tears gaya was soothing me diana was next to us she was crying too and i m already thinking that i ve lost my older daughter but deep in my heart i still believe she s alive and my tears choked me i was going out of my mind but no one could leave the building the courtyard was packed with people swarming with them from the balcony the neighbor in whose apartment we were hiding asked the bandits where are those armenians the ones who were at home where did they make off to they told him they didn t know they asked him where he lived he answered can t you see on the third floor he asked them specially to divert attention from his own apartment we heard them taking free reign of our apartment and they threw our color television off the balcony and it exploded gayane mamma was crying the whole time she fell into a faint and we brought her around and held her back because the whole time she kept making for the door to go outside alternately raving and sobbing shouting and calling vika she didn t notice us probably because we were next to her her thoughts were only on vika the neighbors who were hiding us were calming her too offering tea zinaida we are very grateful to them thanks to them my children and i are alive well and unharmed when they were throwing our belongings out and burning them the beds the pillows and the chairs our neighbor came to us and said how lucky you are that it s not you standing there naked but some other woman instead you re from our part of the building you lost your husband you have children thank god you re not in her position we wouldn t have been able to take it i don t know what i would do he of course wouldn t have done anything he was just trying to calm us down in the yard they were torturing our neighbors fellow armenians they lived on the fifth floor in the third entryway a married couple vanya and nina and their three children their last name is v they hid their two daughters and stayed with their son to defend themselves they even got boiling water ready and an axe and held them off for a long time but the they beat up the husband dragged the wife outside and stood her naked next to our burning things her husband was lying at her feet on the ground the crowd shouted look at the naked armenian they were going to throw the poor woman into the fire the neighbors came out an azerbaijani woman threw her a scarf and she covered herself with it and the neighbors led her off to their apartment all the neighbors saw and heard it gayane mamma wouldn t allow it but i went to the window and saw her standing there and they took skewers that had been heated in the fire and stuck them into her body our neighbor who lived in the same entryway as nina she lives with us in the same boarding house now saw what they had done nina showed her from her knees up almost up to her neck her whole body was covered riddled with wounds zinaida in the morning during the night of the th rather after one o clock two buses approached the station i wanted to run out by then i didn t care any more if i lived or died but gayane wouldn t let me go and the neighbors said that i would bring disaster to them and they would be slain along with their children gaya was crying and said that i forgot about them my other children but i could only think of vika i imagined her torn to pieces i m a mother and they re just children they don t understand i would have jumped off the balcony and run to the soldiers for help i was going to do it but gayane wouldn t let me mamma please mamma i beg of you the neighbors were sleeping and gayane woke them with her cries so we held on that way till morning on the morning of the th i told our neighbor i was going to go downstairs to our apartment maybe vika was lying there murdered he told me he would go himself he was gone for about five minutes but it seemed like an eternity to me he returned and said there was no one there nothing i went down too stole down like a mouse and slipped in everything was thrown all about i didn t go to the soldiers because the armored personnel carriers were far away farther than the bus station i began looking for the briefcase with my work in it i was miserable because of my daughter and at the same time because of my work my documents were there my travel papers i worked in the transport division and my trip sheets gayane mamma is a very responsible person she was always ready to work around the clock to do her job zinaida i look around and i can t find the briefcase i didn t care about the fact that everything had been stolen out of all three of my rooms that everything was smashed and the furniture was broken i worried about that later but at first i was concerned about the lost documents i went into the kitchen my daughter had hidden some valuables in the gas stove my ring and my earrings it was all there five minutes passed and gayane ran in and said mamma hurry and diana came downstairs too gayane found her coat among the debris and diana found her track shoes her coat and some of her dresses diana immediately after we got back up to the neighbors they started throwing things around in the apartment under us they threw a television onto the asphalt it exploded so violently it sounded like a thunderclap then when vika wasn t there i wouldn t eat and they forced me but i couldn t eat because i loved vika terribly and she and i had always gone to the movies and gone for walks in the park when we went into our apartment the next day and everything was broken right away i started looking for my dolls and my books but i didn t see anything when we went back upstairs i managed to take two cups from my tea service and gaya took vika s suit and one of her own dresses my italian boots were gone my brown coat it was beautiful there wasn t a one of my beautiful dolls and my giant lion was gone too the one that had been on top of the television he was very large and very handsome i had two satchels one for first grade and the other for second grade one was yellow green with a boy and a girl on it they re playing a drum and a violin and there is a dog sitting there closing its ears and on the other one were the letters a b c d e and the numbers two girls and a boy with their mouths open like they are singing they were beautiful satchels they were gone too i had many books i collected them they were in the bedside tables and a boy had given me a little apron and a headband for my birthday they weren t around either and i had some big books fat ones and they disappeared only one was left the malachite box the adventures of karlson pippi longstockings and fairy tales of the world were left all the other books were gone zinaida i continued searching for my briefcase and then my supervisor arrived he had waited for me until nine o clock but i didn t appear and he thought something must have happened so he came he s a russian aleksei semyonovich lomakin alik aliyev the mechanic came with him when they saw my wrecked apartment they were just petrified they could not say a thing when i saw them i started crying my azerbaijani neighbors came in some of them were crying others were helping me pick up i go on looking for my documents and at the same time put things into the wardrobe now that i remember it it s both funny and painful how could i have thought that i had returned to my apartment and that everything had gone back to normal incidentally later when i went back to the apartment again those things were gone too and the door was gone after my supervisor left in the afternoon the neighbor said that we should leave find another refuge i m afraid he said that someone saw you come to my apartment and that they could kill you and us too my god where could i go it was daytime and those i don t even know what to call them the bandits those marauders those jackals i don t know what to call them i can t find the words they were everywhere where should i go with two girls when i opened the door i had tears in my eyes and i was terrified and he said go to alik s he s an azerbaijani too and i say you should have said that earlier when my supervisor was here with the car he could have taken us with him everyone feared for their own lives what could i do i went out into the entryway and stood and he says any other time i would keep you here a year or two but right now i m sorry then another door opened also on the third floor i ask the neighbor tayara can we hide at your place she s an azerbaijani too she says what kind of question is that come in she hid us there were many people in the courtyard and gaya and i hid in the wardrobe and they put diana under a mattress leaving a small opening so the child could breathe tayara said that when the bandits left she would let us out and when they came back she would hide us again we sat in the wardrobe for about a half hour gaya became ill and i allowed her to get out my legs fell asleep and felt like cannons we hadn t eaten or drunk anything for so long since the th when we saw that horror and all of it just snapped in me tayara s husband went outside even though i begged him to stay saying there should be a man in the house he said that he d be in the courtyard and if anything happened his wife would signal him she put her passport and all of their documents on the table so if they suddenly came in she could show them that they were an azerbaijani family my girls went to the window and what was going on out there i feared for my children that someone would recognize them from the street gaya let her hair down and put on a scarf so she would resemble an azerbaijani but directly across there was a story building their windows were right across from us and i shouted that someone would see her and give us away on the spot but she kept on looking diana i watched too zinaida downstairs the bandits were fighting with the soldiers the soldiers didn t shoot they didn t have orders to i saw them throwing rocks at the soldiers they were young boys and year olds and they defended themselves i m a mother after all and they were no different from my children when one of the soldiers fell and his head started bleeding i had to stop looking l couldn t watch anymore i imagined my children in their shoes gayane the troops had assumed their defense that morning and had cordoned off the buildings and some of the soldiers surrounded the bus station block and our microdistrict but they only cordoned them off from the outside the mob fell upon the soldiers who started to protect themselves and the mob surged into the courtyard with the soldiers after it they caught several azerbaijanis and started beating them with their clubs one fell down and they cracked open another s head zinaida they show lebanon on television and the war in afghanistan that s just what it was like like in america how they attack demonstrations with shields and clubs that s just how it was in our courtyard gayane don t compare it with america those were peaceful demonstrations but these zinaida but how could it happen here and not off somewhere in america they attacked the soldiers hurled stones at them then i thought where s the tear gas that the americans use to disperse demonstrators if they had used gas on those jackals they all would have scattered gayane they would not have scattered the soldiers had been there since morning they didn t bring in fresh troops they hadn t eaten they were fine standing there for about three hours but then they got tired they weren t even allowed to sit down at noon they the soldiers attacked them and then the tables were turned the mob went after the soldiers the guys were bunched into a group in the center street and covered themselves with their shields and the azerbaijanis surrounded them and threw paving stones at them and those guys sat there covering themselves with their shields and meanwhile tanks with machine guns were cruising the streets they always say our children have never seen war i never even dreamed about it there was no need to but then i thought about those people who had lived through a war it was truly horrible the guys were tired exhausted some had had their clubs taken away others their shields they had been beaten they were covered in blood so many died they beat the soldiers with their own clubs and shields and those guys stood there and couldn t defend themselves they couldn t open fire they couldn t even defend themselves let alone us it s comical zinaida what are you saying how can it be funny gayane no i didn t mean that how could something like that happen during our soviet period it s painfully embarrassing and they burned the armored personnel carriers too someone shouted get away it s going to blow everyone scattered away and the armored personnel carrier exploded the soldiers lost their senses and when they drove the personnel carrier and the bus at the mob out of rage and fury they drove right up on the sidewalk zinaida the bus that had brought the troops only the driver was in it the bus ran over three people straight off i saw it and two armored personnel carriers ran over four more all in one or two minutes the bus ran over three one of the carriers ran over two and the second two more right on our street there s a dry cleaners and appliance and watch repair places one of the armored personnel carriers went that way and they say it ran over several over there too but they ran over seven before our eyes then the bus ploughed into a book kiosk gayane no that was a flower place it was a new booth he drove straight into it zinaida the driver jumped out and they dragged the vehicle out to the middle of the road and set it on fire gayane and i also saw the troops put a bunch of azerbaijanis in a bus and take them in a convoy to baku there were many arrests zinaida our neighbor the one who hid us couldn t take it and he told his wife that we should leave they were running around in the courtyard looking for the armenians they knew that they were hiding with azerbaijanis and they were saying that they were going to check the azerbaijani families poor tayara got scared too and started to cry i pleaded with her i said that i would remember forever how she saved my children and me but where could we go gayane she didn t make us leave she said that she would do anything but she was afraid zinaida i told tayara that we would just stay a little longer and that at night we would return to our apartment then her husband came back and said that a curfew had been imposed he says zina you owe us a drink gorbachev announced a curfew and bagirov first secretary of the communist party of azerbaijan ssr was on television he said that two people had been killed in karabagh but nothing was wrong automobile windows had been broken but there hadn t been any killings he kept making statements and there were azerbaijani songs and dances tayara turned the tv all the way up when we learned of the curfew we calmed down but then a crowd ran into the courtyard again a large one our neighbor told them that there had been only one armenian family here but they had already killed them all there was no one left we hid in the wardrobe again and they stuck diana back under the bed gayane tayara went down to our apartment to see what was happened there and found two bandits they asked her what are you doing here tayara answered i came to take something for myself take all you want they re gone now zinaida yes she had wanted to get something for us at least some bedding she said what are you going to do empty handed naked with three children nothing remains of your entire apartment in short we calmed down and the crowd raced off to the other building the one across from us i don t know what went on there gayane the curfew had its effect on the gangs many started to disperse they were warned that they would open fire on them the soldiers didn t know the city they couldn t get oriented they drove up and down the main streets but didn t go into the courtyards when we were at the city party committee they asked people from sumgait to go with them and show them the way zinaida the tanks entered the city on the night of the th gayane no mamma the tanks had been there earlier but were near the city party committee where the armenians were after midnight on march when i had finally gotten to sleep after two sleepless nights mamma said get your things together they have sent buses for us as it was we had been dressed the entire time mamma went to check it out and came back for us zinaida when i came back for the children tayara said that vika was alive and well some guys had come and told her that they had hidden her in a safe place i both believed it and didn t believe it we ran out to the tanks the gambarians were there roman and sasha their father shurik the clarinetist was killed and their mother was there sasha came over and asked about the girls i was surprised how did he know my girls he said that he knew me and the girls our neighbor himself went for gaya and diana and it seemed like he was taking forever so i went after him another neighbor came out anna vasilyevna a russian zinochka my dear goodbye and good luck she kissed diana they put us in the bus and the captain gave the order for us to be taken to the city party committee the bus wouldn t start so they put us on another one it was pouring rain diana when they imposed the curfew there were many soldiers on the streets and they all had clubs and shields and when the azerbaijanis attacked them many of the soldiers died they threw paving stones huge rocks at the soldiers i saw this myself the soldiers ran over those azerbaijanis with the tanks the soldiers saw that the azerbaijanis were doing violence to people and they ran over them out of rage we got scared and they hid me under a mattress and a blanket and gaya and mamma crawled into the wardrobe and they were fighting right down there on the street near the building they were blowing up buses and tanks and cars were burning and there were many dead in the courtyard they drove without looking to see if it was a sidewalk or a street they just drove and the ones who didn t manage to get out of the way were run over by the tanks and when we left it was evening it was already dark there were three buses and one of them had soldiers in it mamma ran up and said get your clothes on let s go gaya was wearing slippers and i had on my blue dress but it was an old one i was wearing my old jacket my old dress and slippers and nothing else gaya had on a skirt her angora sweater and slippers it was raining hard and there were puddles on the street they gave mamma an old coat because she was wearing a short sleeved dress she put it on and we ran out we got onto the bus and i was hungry one of the soldiers from yerevan gave me rations and carried me from one bus to the other in his arms i gave him the little glass that remained from vika s trousseau and he gave me his telephone number gayane in the bus there was a soldier with a shield sitting at every window we had to be ready for anything they took us to the city party committee let us out and then took us into the city party committee building under armed guard it was jammed with people and you couldn t breathe we asked are these all us armenians they answered yes we were surprised that there were so many armenians in sumgait all those years we lived there and didn t know there were so many armenians we were struck by that we had never noticed going downstairs the next day i ran into the secretary of the komsomol from vika s plant the khimprom he said that vika was alive and well when i told mamma she of course calmed down some more but you know after all that it was hard to believe anything our faith in everything was just gone she didn t believe it completely zinaida i didn t believe it because i had heard all kinds of things when we arrived at the city party committee we heard everything imaginable it was the fear of god i saw many of our acquaintances they were kissing each other and asking how their children and homes were many people already knew that there had been a pogrom of our apartment they had seen the broken windows i cried saying that i didn t know where vika was one woman said that they had taken two of her daughters and that she couldn t find one of them the other had been slashed all over a second said that her husband and her son had been murdered that was nelli aramian she lived in building in our microdistrict they killed her husband armo and her son artur i heard so many things like that that i was already starting to lose touch my patience had run dry waiting for my daughter later an azerbaijani fellow came to me and said aunt zina vika sent me she s alive and well and hidden in a safe place if you want i ll call her there and you can speak with her we went downstairs to the first floor and he called vika i spoke with her heard the voice of my child she had managed to survive in that hell then i started begging that azerbaijani to bring her to the city party committee he tried to talk me out of it i ll bring her wherever you go don t worry i ve looked after her better than a brother does a sister all the same i asked him to get her he brought her and i calmed down on the second day there was a meeting with demichev member of the politburo of the central committee of the communist party of the ussr and people started shouting one shouted give me my son back another yelled where is my daughter a third wanted her husband bagirov was there too and he stood there blinking not saying anything gayane when demichev asked where we wanted to go everyone shouted to russia to be honest we were all frightened of armenia there were such wild rumors it was as though we were in a terrible dream and no one wanted to go to armenia but he said that he couldn t evacuate people to russia and that he would meet with everyone individually the next day and speak with them and he also said that today he was going to go look at all of our apartments on march we went to the military barracks in the village of nasosny we were taken care of marvelously by the military they sent special flights of children right from there to minvody yerevan and moscow one woman left for moscow with a letter for gorbachev and gromyko zinaida the worst was truly behind us by then everything had passed but the pain will remain for our whole lives it cannot be forgotten under no circumstances should we our children or our grandchildren forget who will answer for those who died for our mothers sisters brother sons and daughters who will bear the responsibility who will wash away their blood someone should be made to answer and severely so it has an effect on the people that did with us as they pleased it isn t over yet now we live here in armenia protected but the issue isn t resolved we would like to stay in armenia in our homeland so that all the armenian people will be united then we will be invincible armenians won t be scattered throughout the soviet union about the world and if we re all together this won t happen again as a mother of three children as a woman as a sister i ask armenians to be united so that what happened in sumgait will never happen again our homeland the only request we have is that we be helped in obtaining an apartment and getting jobs so that our children can work for the good of armenia if we aren t able to then let our children do it and if it s possible we ll work for the good of armenia too this is the land of our forefathers our grandfathers and great grandfathers lived here too it was only later that people dispersed all over like a mother the land here bore and reared us it is our wife and will protect us too i want but one thing that our people never see the hardship that our children saw that your children here in armenia never see anything like it may yerevan reference the sumgait tragedy pogroms against armenians in soviet azerbaijan volume i eyewitness accounts edited by samuel shahmuradian forward by yelena bonner published by aristide d caratzas ny pages david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia has not learned a lesson in s d p a center for regional studies anatolia and has forgotten the p o box punishment inflicted on it cambridge ma late turkish president turgut ozal
talk.politics.mideast	re benjamin franklin iii so mr salah is still claiming stalin was a jew this thread began on sca when he and another guy claimed both stalin and lenin were jews when i posted evidence from books and the britannica showing they were christians someone made the correct remark that lenin s maternal grandfather was a jew who converted to christianity to counter the fact that stalin was a christian who during his youth was trained to be a priest mr salah wrote yes it says he was trained to be a priest but not for what religion btw stalin developed strong antisemitic feelings later in his life mr salah seems intent on trying to spread hate against jews by posting antisemitic forgeries and trying to prove that certain notorious people were jews even if they were not danny keren
talk.politics.mideast	re banned game in article rv bc dho network ucsd edu wbruvold weber ucsd edu william bruvold writes in article may midway uchicago edu thf midway uchicago edu writes no it s an example of things are nowhere near as bad as you characterize the united states police kill as many blacks as israel kills palestinians even though the us black population while admittedly larger isn t engaged in a civil war to attempt to destroy the government this probably should not be in this newgroup but mr frank is wrong to use words like civil war or destroy the government in discussing the conflict in the occupied territories re the newsgroup followups set to talk politics mideast where this belongs this may make the term civil war dubious but it does nothing to the phrase destroy the government an occupying government is still a govern ment and the palestinians have made it quite clear that their goal is not simply to prevent it from occupying the territories that don t con fer citizenship which is your own determination of the distinction but to wipe it out entirely and not incidentally the entire jewish population it rules with it this is an intent to destroy the government no matter where the government happens to be from if the current government in isreal would be willing to let all adult individuals who are capable to vote in elections within the defacto boundaries of the isreali state a requirement for being called a democracy in my opinion wasn t a requirement for democracy in athens for that matter isn t a requirement for the term democracy in the united states which doesn t let non citizens vote either both the united states and israel have processes whereby it is possible to acquire citizenship with a great deal of effort and a modicum of screening it s just that it isn t automatic for living in the territories it isn t automatic for living in new york either that said suit yourself having never considered democracy the ultimate in good in this world i could care less if you feel like calling israel or america or anywhere else a democracy personally i withhold the term from israel for the same reason i withhold it from britain the parliamentary system is a serious handicap then mr frank would be correct as the current government neither is willing to enfrachise the vast majority of individuals in the territories or to allow these people to have the right to self determination it is not a civil war or their government rather it is resitance to a foreign occupier again suit yourself in which case israel is not attacking its own people it is fighting a war on foreign soil in which case the residents are entitled to play rough yes but israel s allowed to get just as rough within the bare limits of the rules of war this includes among other things the right to shoot or bomb anyone a national of the coun try in question who is fighting them which permits mass frontal assault on all rock throwers along with the right to take out any installation of military importance certain villages with too good fortifications can be handled by aerial bombing as can waterways since they count as supply lines to the enemy and the right to do anything whatsoever to whatever constitutes a government that they can lay hands on if hamas is trying to set up as the ruling party let them beware if this is not the scenario you want i recommend you go back to calling it a civil war civil wars have to be handled nicer you cannot say the palestinians are a nation fighting a resistance war against a foreign nation and still call israel a government who is treating its own people cruelly if the palestinians are fighting a war against a foreign country so is israel and the gloves come off naomi yes it is bread we may the source of peace fight for but we fight naomi rivkis in the heavens bring peace for roses too rivk midway uchicago edu to us and to all israel
talk.politics.mideast	re muslims accepting sheep status ilyess b bdira benali alcor concordia ca wrote on the other side of the coin give me an instance where the muslims killed non muslims raped their families and burned their houses just for the sake of it when they were a strong majority of course there have hmmm what about the genocide conducted by the ottoman empire aganist the armenians living in turkey joshua klein internet addresses amherst college jaklein unix amherst edu amherst ma jaklein amherst edu
talk.politics.mideast	re stretching from the adriatic sea to the great wall of china in article apr urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian writes in the following report turkey eyes regional role ankara turkey ap april we find in the last paragraph turanist although premier suleyman demirel criticized ozal s often turanist brash calls for more turkish influence he also has spoken turanist of a swath of turkic peoples stretching from the adriatic turanist sea to the great wall of china who does demirel think he is fooling it seems at both ends of his envisioned pan turkic empire the balkans and the caucasus turkey s fascist boasts are being pre empted i would suggest turkey let the world feel some of their grey wolf teeth and attempt to stretch from the adriatic to china turkey will have cried wolf just once too much mentioning that turkic people are wide spread means desiring a turkish empire is that the logical thing to conclude from a statement like that to me it just says that turkey may have economical benefits from that if she can be competitive enough no more than that but of course you have the freedom of extrapolating as you wish from any statement one question in what context did ozal use the words you are quoting can you give the whole speech tankut atan tankut iastate edu achtung baby
talk.politics.mideast	re volume face it mr beyer you re just outmatched by us israeli intellectuals any attempts to defend the deceitful undeserving palestinians will prove fruitless
talk.politics.mideast	re civility shut up andi
talk.politics.mideast	re israel an apartheid state in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes by elias davidsson april revision oct note you are already posting facts some of which are outdated the biased presentation of facts as well as the conclusions that you reach leave me little hope of engaging in any fruitful exchange that might lead to a meeting of the minds it is to those who read with open mind that i address myself the international convention on the elimination of all forms of racial discrimination adopted by the general assembly of the united nations in has now been ratified by most member states article of this convention defines the term racial discrimination as any distinction exclusion restriction or preference based on race colour descent or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition enjoyment or exercise on an equal footing of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political economic social cultural or any other field of public life while the ideals embodied in this text are worthy goals as the text currently stands i know of no country in which racial discrimination of some sort can not be found it makes no mention of the need for for a legislative violation the general assembly endorsed in a resolution defining zionism as a form of racism and racial discrimination the important correct and legitimate resolution is incomplete since it does not include operative statements designed to end israeli racial discrimination meanwhile the united states on behalf of israel are exerting heavy pressure on member states of the united nations to repeal this resolution and give israeli racial practices zionism moral legitimacy if you are in principle advocating un intervention via operative statements in this case it must therefore hold that they can be applied to any other case where the council perceives some form of racial discrimination as previously exhibited scarey thought the very definition of israel as a state belonging to the jews of the world but not to its inhabitants alienates all native non jews born in that country actually i know quite a few native non jews born in israel that are not alienated by this law if you had said some you would probably be correct however your tendency to exagerate and slant facts becomes apparent this slant permeates the text practically all non jews who are living in or originate from areas under israeli control identify themselves as palestinians most of them are muslim many are christian a few jews including the author of these lines also identify themselves as palestinians the above statement is not true practically all discounting beduins circassians druze and some other fringe groups your own identification is a matter that has no bearing upon the issue you could equally identify yourself as a insert group zionism took off in europe at the end of last century it s aim was to create a jewish state in palestine in spite of the adamant opposition of palestinian arabs of the population if i recall correctly at the time zionism took off there was no adamant opposition in palestine i am open to any factual contradictory evidence but the zionists were more powerful militarily economically and technologically and succeeded in in conquering of the area of mandatory palestine after driving into exile most native arabs from the conquered areas approximately people and razing most of their villages to the ground the zionists could finally establish a predominantly jewish state only non jews remained on israeli territory do you therefore contend that the villages you mention further on most of their villages once the jewish state was established it began enacting laws to help the confiscation of land from native non jews their political repression and their destitution there is no doubt that laws passed provided a framework which was later used for these purposes however you seem to imply that this was the intention a priori which implies a policy and agenda my knowledge was that this was not the case you also neglect to mention the circumstances that surrounded this as you do again below in the state of israel invaded egypt and syria and occupied the rest of palestine the west bank and the gaza strip thus another million palestinians fell under its juridiction its occupation of palestinian and other arab territories is considered illegal by the international community as reflected in security council resolutions israel has rejected all u n resolutions and began without delay to entrench its occupation and rule over these territories with the aim of annexing them at the appropriate time not quite accurate israel has not rejected all the resolutions though it has conflicting understanding with regards to some of them israel never annexed the sinai west bank or gaza the other annexations were brought about partly due to the un resolutions part of these territores east jerusalem and the golan heights have already been forcefully annexed by israel in defiance of international law and un resolutions out of curiousity provided that the annexees are granted citizenship what int l law do you claim prohibits annexation of territories captured in war has this ever been applied to any other country previously other than iraq it must be emphasized that although these people live under different regimes they are united in their self perception as palestinians that is as people identifying with palestine a territorial entity not an ethnic or religious entity incorrect palestinians themselves claim to be discriminated against on an ethnic or racial basis therefore your above statement is incorrect i also note that given the previous definition of racial discrimination the only means that you could argue for that is nationalistically however no such nation has existed it definitely did not exist at the time of the creation of israel in which case you can not argue racial discrimination during that period furthermore palestinians generally consider the plo both as a symbol of national identity and as the unchallenged authority that represents them in world affairs once again some do some don t the non jewish population living in the palestinian and other arab territories occupied by israel in suffers not only blatant discrimination but is subject to brutal military occupation another generalization but then again you don t seem to care about anyone other than the palestinian people whose cause you espouse licence to start a business and to buy industrial equipment the right to educate children all of these basic rights are subject to arbitrary rulings by military authorities and cannot be challenged in court incorrect once again they have the ability to appeal furthermore although you may not agree with them not all of the military rulings are senseless or arbitrary some are but this is not due to the whims of the military as much as the sizeof the task organization only jewish inhabitants of the occupied territories are permitted to carry firearms incorrect once again i know two arab policemen who lived in daheisha and there were more of course with the outbreak of the intifada they were forced by the locals to resign bitterly jewish settlers have right to more water per person than non jews jewish residents of these territories number now about people it is israel governmentus policy to increase this number substantially in total defiance of international law un resolutions and the will of the population the state of israel systematically confiscates land from non jewish inhabitants of these territories for jewish settlement that is no longer true and i can t help but wonder what your purpose is was in posting this some people in israel proper are not jews most of them consider themselves palestinians with israeli citizenship for many years after the establishment of israel they were subjected to harsh military control much of their land was confiscated by the state and handed to jewish organisations for exclusive jewish settlement they have been subject to massacres destitution and humiliation while they enjoy with jewish israelis the right to vote they are discriminated against both through law and in practice once again to hell with the other minorities that don t fit in right their are many villages who did not suffer in the way you seem to indicate abu gosh comes to mind yes some did but as a result of what actions approximately of the surface of the state of israel within the rgreen lines is for all purposes closed to palestinians who are second class citizens in israel they may neither legally live on such land nor rent or cultivate it a direct effect of these policies is that native non jewish citizens of israel are denied residence and membership rights in most rural communities in israel including the collective settlements kibbutzim non jews are discriminated against in many other ways the government starves local authorities of palestinian villages and townships of funds jewish city councils force palestinians to live in ghettos jewish families receive higher child allocations than their non jewish neighbors palestinian schools suffer underfunding and understaffing as compared to jewish schools palestinian children are denied the right to learn their history and literature israelis who struggle for equal rights and for the end of racial discrimination suffer continuous harassment by the authorities there are some kibbutzim with arab non jewish members it is up to the members of the kibbutz there is no legislation against it nor against a purely non jewish collective funds are the result of political lobbying bearing in mind that non jews compose of the voting population it has never failed to amaze me that they fail to form one large bloc and increase their power the recent elections are a case in point please provide factual evidence supporting your allegation with regard to educational material you have obviously never seen the curriculum of a school in the west bank it is based upon jordan s school system with regard to your last statement it is simply another gross generalization the state of israel refuses to acknowledge itself as the state of all its inhabitants although the israeli cabinet has never openly endorsed the transfer idea the forced removal from the country of its native palestinian population that is its ultimate judaization israeli government policies towards non jews bear the mark of this final solution no attempt is made by the zionist authorities to integrate palestinian arabs into israeli public life thus although comprising approximately of the population of israeli citizens no palestinian citizen of israel has ever served as cabinet member as director of ministry or of a national institution as judge of the supreme court as ambassador of israel or in any leading position in israeli economic or financial life even the director of the ministry for arab affairs yes such a thing exists is a jew another generalization but lets not stop here the transfer idea was espoused by one party in the last gov t moledet it was intended to be a solution to the problem in the territories not the country itself with regard to other items i recall at least one arab ambassador and the rest was covered previously although sexual relations between and cohabitation of jews and non jews are legal they are considered by israeli zionist society somewhat a betrayal of the jewish and zionist ethics the israeli educational system nurtures this attitude in a systematic way when was the last time you were in israel that is simply not true nor has it been for quite some time the question of religious intervention is best answered by the proportional representation and the lack of any arab party bloc to counter the orthodox one zionism rejects the idea of a modern secular state based on equality of all citizens this is one main reason why israel has not produced any written constitution simply incorrect the answer is political once again your failure to understand the dynamics and movements inside israeli gov t relegates your contentions to the sidelines zionism predicates a state where jews have privileged rights thus according to israeli law a jew born in london who has never visited israel does not speak hebrew and professes atheism is granted automatic israeli citizenship while native palestinian inhabitants who happen to be christian or muslim are treated almost as aliens racial discrimination as defined in international law is thus not only reflected in israeli laws and policies but is grounded in the very nature of israel as a jewish state but the discrimination is not based upon race oops sorry nasty habit i have of countering malicious false truths any proposal for israeli arab and israeli palestinian peace that does not address the issue of racial discrimination by israel that is the zionist nature of the state of israel is thus doomed to fail real world intrusion any proposal that does is doomed to fail of course i wouldn t expect you to understand wrapped up as you are in your view of things let s not let anything penetrate shall we i may be a bit too sarcastic but there is a limit to the amount of patience i have for rubbish at shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninja of the skies cambridge ma
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli media was re israeli terrorism in article c njt h u bony bony com jake bony bony com jake livni writes in article apr ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes jake can call me doctor mohandes brad ali hernlem as of last wednesday congratulations in what field is this doctorate jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president i add my congratulations as well to all those who survive the gauntlet cheers tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca
talk.politics.mideast	re egypt call for fighting fundamentalists objects to pro bosnian steps in article apr ucsu colorado edu barrak rintintin colorado edu mohammed f hadi writes in article benali alcor benali alcor concordia ca ilyess b bdira writes islamabad upi representatives from islamic nations were considering tuesday a request from bosnia herzegovina for million and weapons to fight the bosnian serbs all right let s hope they get off their rear ends and do something because the un clearly is content to sit on its tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca
talk.politics.mideast	re happy birthday israel in article c da me bony bony com jake bony bony com jake livni writes in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hamid mcrcim mcgill edu hamid reza mohammadi daniali writes in article c r f s news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux cso uiuc edu edward a shnekendorf writes israel happy th birthday anybody has any information about the number of the people have been killed by israel during these happy year hamid what s this another idiot from mcrcim mcgill edu or are these all the same dope using different accounts i asked some simple questions at different occations i don t understand why some people insulted me for those simple questions anyway i didn t reply to them with the same language and i won t because there is no need there is no benefit i don t have time to reply to those garbages by the way do you want to know who am i i am not a nationalist arab of i am not a comonist arab of s are you sure that you want to hear my name i am a muslim fighter i am the same child who fight with your armed soldier with stone i am the same guy who wants to bring justice to palestine i am the same fighter who wants to kicked israel out of south lebonon in the same way of the i am the son of khomeini i am honored to be a hezbullah don t you know me just ask rabin he knows me hamid jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii in article c tso za bony bony com jake bony bony com jake livni writes there is a difference between guerrilla warfare and terrorism the former primarily targets enemy soldiers the latter primarily targets civilians and not necessarily enemy civilans at that by comparison palestinean fighters primarily target tourists schoolchildren babies worshippers shoppers movie goers and other such threatening people early zionist fighters did no such things this is historically incorrect early zionist fighters did indeed target civilians they made random attacks in arab marketplaces killing innocent passers by your assertion of the opposite is an attempt to whitewash history anyone can read about the history of the zionist terrorists a good book to start is the one by j bowyer bell an expert in international terrorism his main interest is irish terrorism author bell j bowyer title terror out of zion irgun zvai leumi lehi and the palestine underground j bowyer bell pub info new york st martin s press c description xi p leaves of plates ill maps cm subjects s lohame herut yisrael s irgun tsevai leumi s israel arab war s jewish arab relations lc callno ds b for completeness arab thuggery of the same period was also rampant and targeted chiefly jewish civilians can anyone tell me what the opposite of live and let live is jim eggertj atc ll mit edu jim eggert
talk.politics.mideast	re freedom in u s a hm cs brown edu harry mamaysky writes mr mamaysky s proposal to forbid any action which serves to promote a morally incorrect action omitted for brevity i prefer the freedom granted in the first amendment of the us constitution to an arbitrary definition of universal morality steve p s i can elaborate in e mail if this isn t clear p p s i m very sorry about misspelling your name steven berson ucla computer science department steven cs ucla edu los angeles ca
talk.politics.mideast	re deir yassin hm cs brown edu writes in article apr virginia edu rj s virginia edu get thee to a nunnery writes this is such bullshit deir yassin was an unprovoked attack on the part of the jews and a massacre defines it best in my opinion the village of deir yassin had had a pact with the jews a peace pact but the irgun purposely broke this agreement in order to scare off the palestinians i might grant that this village housed armed arabs i doubt it but nothing in the archives and available literature indicates that this was a motivating force amongst the irgun the deir yassin massacre was part of an over all strategy to intimidate the palestinians to flee the jewish homeland and contrary to your belief many civilians were killed deir yassin was later advertized by the very jews who perpetrated it because it was useful in getting many palestinians to leave the palestinians were rightfully scared off because they did not want another deir yassin i m not necessarily condemning the israelites here atrocities were aslo committed on the part of the arabs israelophiles should just be careful in thinking that they are and were the good guys in the middle east both arab and jew suck equally rj s you say that there is no evidence that what motivated the irgun to attack dir yassin was its strategic importance in fact begin who was in charge of the irgun wrote that dir yassin was attacked for its military significance dir yassin was merely a battle in the war of liberation people died but the thing was never intended to be a masacre that this hapenned is a tragedy of war not a crime of the irgun harry i agree with you harry however you must also concede then that arab terrorism is also a tragedy of war remember that the palestinians have no other effective target but civilians in order to further their cause if irgun had to attack civilian targets to terrorize in order that they might obtain some objective i m sure they would have done so i also don t exclude irgun s action against british soldiers as terrorism the british were showing signs of favoring a compromise with regards to palestine and the irgun and branch off groups made a point to kill young british recruits so that mothers and fathers back in britain would get angry at britains continued presence in palestine sounds like a form of terrorism to me and not much removed from arab terrorism we must not also forget that irgun or irgun branch off groups more likely killed many jews who were not as hardline zionist as they or who cooperated with the british i ll reiterate again both sides are screwy but i ll favor the underdog in this case because i do think they were a bit screwed
talk.politics.mideast	re uva a few things about the university it is more fun than some may admit partying does go on and it has consistently been ranked one of playboy s top party schools i knew it andi beyer is a fraternity prank
talk.politics.mideast	re final solution for gaza in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes there are basically three alternatives for gaza what is this gaza are you purposely separating it from the west bank if so why separate the people and territories if not why are you just addressing gaza here to throw the jews to the sea that is basically to make them leave the middle east and go back to where they came from russia europe usa etc by all means continue to list the etc the reason i particularly bring this up here is that there are many from middle eastern and west asian countries that fact in itself adds an important element to any consideration of resolution of the arab israel conflict to throw the gazans into the sea in accordance with yitzhak rabin s wish and that of many zionists you explained what sea meant with regard to the israelis jews please do so in this case for israelis and palestinians to come to an honorable and fair i don t attempt to say just settlement just you better not ask for that because that would mean north american tribes would be returned their lands the pre islamic tribes would take back their lands from the islamic invaders the saxons get to kick the normans out of the uk the central and south american tribes get to kick the spanish descendents out of thier lands and once we have returned the land to those who last possessed it we have to find out from whom they stole it at some point every culture stole the land they are on from previous occupants which would allow each person to live in dignity in his country in freedom and equality but wait now you refer to palestinians so what happened to gaza i personnaly opt for the third alternative how about you folks as we both know most people would choose the third alternative and since you have done so in the past perhaps you would initiate things by presenting your vision of resolution in doing so however the worries not paranioas worries and resonable expectations of both parties should be considered elias tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca
talk.politics.mideast	re uva in article apr vms huji ac il backon vms huji ac il writes in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes a few things about the university it is more fun than some may admit partying does go on and it has consistently been ranked one of playboy s top party schools but we do study and more importantly learn a lot the overall uva drug use is actually lower than the average college in the u s thomas jefferson was the sole author of the virginia statute for religious freedom the basis for the first ten amendments though he is not given full credit for righting the bill of rights so someone who picked on me for that is right andi b medical school like your fellow austrian dr mengele josh oh come on josh tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca
talk.politics.mideast	re freedom in u s a in article apr cs ucla edu steven surya cs ucla edu steven berson writes hm cs brown edu harry mamaysky writes mr mamaysky s proposal to forbid any action which serves to promote a morally incorrect action omitted for brevity i prefer the freedom granted in the first amendment of the us constitution to an arbitrary definition of universal morality society is impossible without some shared set of moralities sense of what is god and what is bad action and basic foundation of something universal steve p s i can elaborate in e mail if this isn t clear p p s i m very sorry about misspelling your name steven berson ucla computer science department steven cs ucla edu los angeles ca tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca
talk.politics.mideast	re deir yassin in article hm apr angell cs brown edu hm cs brown edu harry mamaysky writes in article martinb brise ere umontreal ca aurag ere umontreal ca aurag hassan writes i am replying to this because i haven t seen anyone else do so yet it seems rather odd really as there are so few really wierd posters left who aren t fascists or arab extremists arab civilians did die at dir yassin but there was no massacre yes it was and it was clearly admitted so by the troops who carried it out and then stupidly deposited testimony in their own archives to that effect first of all the village housed many armed troops source noone is claiming this anymore except you would you like to name one credible historian who asserts this i believe that even begin has the decency not to claim this secondly the irgun and stern fighters had absolutely no intentions of killing civilians yes they did and thye said so they said they went their with the intention of killing all the men and all the women who got in their way their own archives remember this is not hostile testimony the village was attacked only for its military significance in fact a warning was given to the occupants of the village to leave before the attack was to begin sound van bogged down in a ditch no warning given by all rational standards dir yassin was not a massacre the killing was unintentional yes it was and no it was not it was a massacre the murder of hundreds of unarmed civilians who had no part in the fighting the surviving men were taken to the local quarry and shot in the back of the head not intentional yeah right the village housed arab snipers and arab troops no it did not you have a source for this slander of course thus it was attacked for its military significance it was not attacked with intentions of killing any civilians the men involved said clearly that the intention was to kill all the men it was a premeditated mass murder nothing else to even compare dir yassin in which some or so arabs died to the holocaust is absurd on that we agree at least the irgun did not want to kill any civilians the village had almost inhabitants most of whom survived yes they did want to kill the inhabitants and many of them were killed this is of course simple to resolve the haganah sent a soldier to report on the massacre he brought a photographer with him he sent in a report the israeli government suppressed it now the government was a labour government since then the revisionists have gotten into power but for some reason likud didn t release the report and its pictures either perhaps you might want to tell me why if it happened as you claim then there will be no pictures of men shot in the head with their hands tied behind their backs no women and children shot as they slept yet for some reason they did not take the chance to clear their own name you have a reason for this don t you i somehow doubt it the facts are exactly as the people responsible claim a premeditated mass murder nothing else no iraqi soldiers no other fighting just ethnic cleansing at work joseph askew joseph askew gauche and proud in the autumn stillness see the pleiades jaskew spam maths adelaide edu remote in thorny deserts fell the grief disclaimer sue see if i care north of our tents the sky must end somwhere actually i rather like brenda beyond the pale the river murmurs on
talk.politics.mideast	re dir yassin in article hm apr angell cs brown edu hm cs brown edu harry mamaysky writes from myths and facts by leonard j davis near east research inc great someone will be posting from protocols of the elders of zion next unlike the plo s almost exclusive focus on civilian targets at this time the plo did not exist and would not for the next years you knew that didn t you perhaps you might want to add up all the jewish civilians killed during the war i ll opt for the massacre at deir yassin which do you think is the greater in however eric silver of the guardian britain interviewed a survivor mophammed sammour who testified that out of a population of were killed while we are talking about this man i have included more of his testimony that harry naturally does not use nor does myths and facts i wonder why no doubt he was lying right harry the reason was mainly economic that is to capture booty in order to maintain the bases which we had then established with very poor resources the main idea despite this remained the conquest of the village by force of arms something which was then unknown in the country and became a turning point in jewish military operations yehuda lapidot jabontinsky archives testimony apart from the military discussion the lehi put forward a proposal to liqui date the residents of the village after the conquest in order to show the arabs what happens when the izl and the lehi set out together on an operation and for another main reason it would cause a great uproar throughout the land and would be an important turning point in the course of the battles the clear aim was to break the arab morale and raise somewhat the morale of the jewish commu nity in jerusalem which had been hit hard time after time especially recenctly by the desecration of jewish bodies which fell into arab hands yehuda lapidot jabotinsky archives testimony as quoted by yisrael segal in the deir yassin file published by koteret rashit th january so it wasn t like the holocaust more like lidice a warning a punishment collective and inflicted on unarmed innocents just not as through when it comes to prisoners old people and children there were differences of opinion but the majority was for liquidation of all the men in the village and any other force that opposed us whether it be old people women or children benzion cohen commander of the attack on deir yassin j a t let me put in some words here a premeditated b murder what do you say about the eyewitness testimony of the man in command we had prisoners and before the retreat we decided to liquidate them we also liquidated the wounded as anyway we could not give them first aid in one place about eighty arab prisoners were killed after some of them had opened fire and killed one of the people who came to give them first aid arabs who dressed up as arab women were also found and so they started to shoot the women also who did not hurry to the area where the prisoners were concentrated j a t shooting prisoners the wounded as a warning to hurry sounds very familiar to me how about you heard of other people other places doing these things in one case the zahran family only one out of twenty five survived in another house they caught the sixteen year old son fuad his mother was holding him they killed him with a knife the mother spent twenty years after that in a mental hospital a young woman and her two year old baby were shot in the street their bodies were left there they moved to the centre of the village and started to kill everybody they saw or heard as soon as anybody opened his door they were using bombs grenades machine guns submachine guns my cousin escaped with bullet holes in his clothes one of the officers put his machinegun through a window and started shooting outwards killing everybody who moved they killed my uncle ali hassan zeidan and my aunt fatima she heard him call help me she ran to him and they killed her another neighbour haj yarah heard some voices and came out they killed him too his son muhammad who was about seventeen heard his father call him and went to the same place they killed him his mother heard her son cry for help she ran out and they killed her that was near my house i saw this muhammad arif sammour funny how myths and facts does not see fit to include this too after all if he is reliable enough to report casualties why not the actual events what do you say about this harry in the exchange that followed four men were killed and a dozen were wounded by noon time the battle was over and the shooting had ceased although there was a calm the village had not yet surrendered the irgun and lehi men came out of hiding and began to clean the houses they shot whoever they saw women and children included the commanders did not try and stop the massacre i pleaded with the commander to order his men to cease fire but to no avail in the meantime twenty five arabs had been loaded on a truck and driven through mahane yehuda and zichron yosef at the end of the drive they were taken to the quarry bvetween deir yassin and givat shaul and murdered in cold blood meir pa il interview with yediot ahronot joseph askew gauche and proud in the autumn stillness see the pleiades jaskew spam maths adelaide edu remote in thorny deserts fell the grief disclaimer sue see if i care north of our tents the sky must end somwhere actually i rather like brenda beyond the pale the river murmurs on
talk.politics.mideast	re uva pete that was uncalled for i m sure andi beyer or whatever his name is was a product of his environment before he came to school and is enjoying the mantle of the university to make his viewpoint seem legitimate well reasoned i m at virginia too and i think maligning uva is in poor taste even if beyer did slip in here jesse
talk.politics.mideast	re rejoinder questions to israelis in article r p j v usenet ins cwru edu bc cleveland freenet edu mark ira kaufman writes although i realize that principle is not one of your strongest points i would still like to know why do do not ask any question of this sort about the arab countries kaufman i think we have a problem in this newsgroup every time somebody puts down serious questions on israel the first response would be what about the arab countries most of the arab countries governments are ruling their people with iron fist policy and dark ages democracy if exists ironically these are the countries that the west would like to deal with and would wage massive wars to protect them and their resources for israel the situation is different israel claims it is a democracy i would call it selective democracy that abides by western democratic standards if israel is saying that then it has to be compared to western standards if this comparison is the advertized propaganda from israel then we have to look at seriously at question that can and should be asked regarding any country advertizing this standard if you want to continue this think tank charade of yours your fixation on israel must stop you might have to start asking the same sort of questions of arab countries as well you realize it would not work as the arab countries treatment of jews over the last several decades is so bad that your fixation on israel would begin to look like the biased attack that it is that is very incorrect i see you have been brain washed well i would recommend non zionist history books everyone in this group recognizes that your stupid center for policy research is nothing more than a fancy name for some bigot who hates israel please speak for yourself do not imagine that everyone subscribes to your beliefs you would be lucky if you believe them yourself why don t you try being honest about your hatred of israel i have heard that your family once lived in israel but the members of your family could not cut the competition there is this true about your family is this true about you is this actually not about israel but is really a personal vendetta why are you not what is this you trying to destroy the credibility of the author why all of this because he asked some serious question these tactics of destroying the credibility of a person beacuse you do not agree with her him is old and does not work anymore go tell your superiors aipac to change their guide books salam eyad nuweiri software engineer unify corp disclaimer this is my personal views not of my employer eyad alnuweiri unify corp software engineer lennane drive email eyad unify com sacramento ca
talk.politics.mideast	re volume ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes i think some of you guys think that the volume of your responses and their harshness somehow increases their factual accuracy i especially deplore the attempts to call me a racist as many of you have done you guys think just because there are more unreasonable israelis on this pcnews channel than all other denominations combined including reasonable israelis that somehow makes you right well you re wrong i just started reading this stuff last sunday and thought i might butt in since there were severe information problem on the part of some people i thought that through somewhat intelligent conversation we might enlighten each other that would be nice but considering professional diplomats between israel and athe arabs have been unable to do so for years i can t see us starting but hey as soon as anyone wants to discuss things reasonably and in a scholarly manner count me in anyway the responses were mostly negative and i ve been called a racist and an anti semite so many times that it seems assumed about me in people s postings when i shared this with some of my friends it appears that they have had similar experiences the overall harsh language coupled with the occasional death threats and attempts to get them disconnected have convinced many to look elsewhere for true discussions and unsubscribe to the newsgroup people have very strong opinions and you need to be careful regarding what you say if you say make it factual and be able to back it up i don t know if you re paid israeli lobbyists or just concerned but it seems that toning down the harsh rhetoric might be more helpful to your cause than name calling attempting to disconnect and death threats just a tip about how things work in the civilized world thanks for teaching us about the civilized world andi i guess we all just came out either the desert or the ghetto right and no we are not paid israeli lobbyists nor are we conspirators of the zog we are just people who believe in our cause and find offense when people imply some sort dirty dealing or disloyalty due to our love of israel disguised as paid israeli lobbyists what kind of image is that p s i understand that not all of you are involved in all this but many of you are contributing to the atmosphere p p s just to clear up something i don t think than the jews are necessarily any worse than other people as a whole if such a distinction between cultures shall be made i don t personally believe in judging people by their religion culture or race oh thank you i needed your approval of my heritage i guess i can go home and feel good now and sleep comfartably knowing that jews really aren t worse people than anyone else contrary to what we all know is true ed
talk.politics.mideast	re peace talks resume in article jcpltyo jcpl co jp ohayon jcpltyo jcpl co jp tsielohayon writes in article bdd dfc news service uci edu tim clock writes tc do you as i do agree that this sort of peace process is needed tc what about the particular points mentioned in the article is what tc israel is supposedly going to propose good does it go too far tc not far enough tc if you don t agree that a peace process is needed what is i personally think that a peace process is needed since only through negotiations will the future generations be able to live in stability unfortunately not all think like this we have cases like anas omran hamza saleh jle mohammed reza mehmed abu abed anwar mohammed and others who think that jihad is the only solution if we can t avoid throwing out gut reactions to what we see as extremist views here in the newsgroup we re certainly not going to be any better at it in the real world hey it easy here after reading the offending post we can step back take some deep breathing exercises have a gallon of ice cream or sex whichever calmsus and reply in something other than the usual king of the hill mentality my view is that israel has made more gestures towards its arab foes than the opposite what have the sysrians given to us or proposed what have the palestinians proposed if the palestinians would just revoke or rewrite their charter or just condemn acts of palestinian violence that would be a good start perhaps starting here with an immediate accusation is not a particularly good way to generate open responses how about explaining what you see as being israel s real worries and how they need to be addressed since the other side sees israel s gestures in a completely different light than you do perhaps they also have real worries from their point of view what are they how can those worries be addressed the palestinians have all to gain from these negotiations its seems though that they are not strong enough to make decisions on their own and are plagued by internal strife that is why we are not getting anywhere fundamentalism is slowly taking over in the territories then it will be too late to discuss issues with the palestinians since they will only vow for the destruction of israel it is certainly much harder to reach compromise or even sit down and talk with an other side which is fractured into several different ideologies each with its own set of demands while it is up to them to generate unity on their side is there anything that israel can do without sacrificing its security its position to encourage that unification along lines that israel prefers arabs must take example on egypt egypt came to the bargaining table got what it wanted from israel and there is now peace and cooperation between the two countries the tougher you play ball with israel the tougher israel gets tsiel tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca
talk.politics.mideast	re israel an apartheid state center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes anti israel rantings deleted as my father says in russian pol yevreya poltara anitsemita or roughly translated half a jew is an anti semite and a half now mr davidsson i know what he means ed
talk.politics.mideast	re israel an apartheid state center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes sabri jiryis the arabs in israel monthly review press new york ed a w kayyali zionism imperialism and racism croom helm london writings by arab english and american scholars abdeen jabara the responsibility of the state of israel according to its international commitments arab studies quarterly spring summer p ilan halevi zionism today arab studies quarterly spring summer p roselle tekiner jewish nationality status as the basis for institutionalized racism in israel the international organisation for the elimination of all forms of racial discrimination eaford washington dr w mallison and sally v mallison the zionist organization jewish agency in international and us law in judaism or zionism what difference for the middle east zed books ltd london john quigley palestine and israel a challenge to justice duke university press durham n c dr uri davis israelus zionist society consequences for internal opposition and the necessity for external intervention in judaism or zionism what difference for the middle east zed books ltd london i think one only needs to scan mr davidsson s bibliography to see what kind of objective sources he uses ed
talk.politics.mideast	re deir yassin rj s virginia edu get thee to a nunnery writes first of all harry i am not so uninformed about irgun s terrorist activities i ll give you a few quotes from a book by charles d smith in his palestine and the arab israeli conflict ah palestine and the arab israeli conflict sounds interesting begin directed the irgun to bomb only civilian that s right civilian installations linked to the mandatory authority not military sites this is misleading i supposed charles d smith characterizes the bombing of the king david hotel as a civilian installation too any installation attacked by etzel was linked to some sort of official function of the mandatory government and of course there is the lehi splinter group which included such notable israelis as yitzak shamir the lehi fighters for the freedom of israel resumed its assassinations of british officials civilian and military what kind of civilians i assume charles d smith means completely innocent people who were intentionally targeted right please provide examples and there is of course dair yassin where men woman and children were killed perhaps i m sure for strategic reasons yet what ever happened to the non aggression pact with the hagana i have references for that if you d like it seems to me like blatant scare tactics that begin himself admits to having been very useful in scaring off the palestinian arabs i do have references the revolt los angeles nice strawman in the revolt begin does state that the myth of a massacre at deir yassin may have had the effect of scaring some arabs into fleeing however nowhere does he claim that this was the result of any specific policy of the etzel thus if it did happen it was not so intended i think arab calls for palestinians to leave and fear of a war started by arab hands had a greater effecton arab migration than deir yassin in fact these jewish terrorist groups managed all in all to scare off arabs by may really nice use of caps i like it very effective actually according to many sources including american diplomatic officials the greatest encouragment for arabs to leave their villages came from arab leaders this certainly might be all a matter of semantics however you might say that the hagana did this for war but like i said before how do we not know that the palestinian conflict isn t equatable with a war if israel never got her state the hagana s activities would be lost in history categorized as tewrrorism for sure because it could not be identified with the cause of a state i do take this seriously harry i sincerely think the palestinians are being discriminated against in this case because perhaps everyone thinks their cause is bogus anyway just some stuff to ponder over over and out ramiro ed
talk.politics.mideast	re dir yassin in article apr angell cs brown edu hm cs brown edu harry mamaysky writes from myths and facts by leonard j davis near east research inc pp unlike the plo s almost exclusive focus on civilian targets the troups from the irgun and stern group that struck at deir yassin on april targeted the village for its military importance deir yassin was on the road to jerusalem which the arabs had blockaded and it housed iraqi troups and palestinian irregulars snipers based in deir yassin were a constant threat to jewish citizens in jerusalem arab civilians were killed at deir yassin but that attack does not conform to the propaganda picture that the arabs have tried to paint the number of arabs killed was generally reported to be about in however eric silver of the guardian britain interviewed a survivor mophammed sammour who testified that out of a population of were killed about three days after the massacre sammour explained representatives of each of the five clans in deir yassin met at the moslem offices in jerusalem and made a list of the people who had not been found alive we went through the names nothing has happend since to make me think this figure was wrong unlike the plo s deliberate attacks on civilians the killing of civilians at deir yassin was not premeditated the attackers left open an escape corridor from the village and more than residents left unharmed why does this remind me of bosnia and ethnic cleansing tippu after the remaining arabs feigned surrender and then fired on the jewish troops some of the attackers killed arab soldiers and civilians indiscriminately independent observers told the guardian that among the bodies they found arab men disguised as women
talk.politics.mideast	re uva in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes a few things about the university it is more fun than some may admit partying does go on and it has consistently been ranked one of playboy s top party schools but we do study and more importantly learn a lot the overall uva drug use is actually lower than the average college in the u s there is no hate law on the books even though they the forces of pc tried to have one last year by the way a similar law at the university of wisconsin was found unconstitutional last year there is a law against relationship of professors with their students or advisees that just passed thomas jefferson was the sole author of the virginia statute for religious freedom the basis for the first ten amendments though he is not given full credit for righting the bill of rights so someone who picked on me for that is right by the way we re the man in everything sports academics and partying i m sure a lot of other schools are good at what they do as well so don t start mailing me junk i m happy where i am and maybe i ll go to one of y alls medical schools in a couple of years medical school like your fellow austrian dr mengele josh dr josh backon cardiology backon vms huji ac il
talk.politics.mideast	re zionism is racism in apr nysernet org astein nysernet org alan stein wrote d c sessions dcs witsend tnet com writes so steve lets here what is zionism assuming that you mean hear you weren t listening he just told you zionism is racism this is a tautological statement i think you are confusing tautological with false and misleading no but you re right that i didn t express myself well the dialog went a zionism is racism b what is zionism dc you weren t listening were you in other words the first statement defined a zionism of discourse everything else was redundant d c sessions speaking for myself note new network address dcs witsend tnet com author and everything else of tmail dos mail news shell
talk.politics.mideast	re freedom in u s a in apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer wrote jaa cunixa cc columbia edu writes dear mr beyer it is never wise to confuse freedom of speech with freedom of racism and violent deragatory it is unfortunate that many fail to understand this crucial distinction in fact if a speach was not offensive to some its protection under freedom of speach laws would be useless it is speach that some find questionable that must be protected be it religiously blasphemous or inherently racist it is only through civilized discourse and not scare tactics that one can enlighten those that one perceives to be ignorant that is the idea behind freedom of expression what you find offensive might be perceived as truth by some and what they might find offensive might be your belief it is only through free exchange of ideas and insults as the case seems to be with this channel that one can change another s erring ways that is why jefferson said that here we are not afraid to tolerate error so long as reason is left to combat it does this mean that you are volunteering to wade through the mutlu argic deluge that comes in every day some of us are tired of being dragged into content free pissing contests with reflexive bigots we intensely dislike being stuck between letting this crap pass without comment as though it were unremarkable and replying to it and getting sucked in again let s keep some perspective here imho the josh s policy of forwarding the garbage in question without comment to the relevant sysadmin strikes a good balance the stuff was after all published on a public forum from that very site yet hardly a matter of confidentiality or copyright if the local administration wants to do something about it they have that right if not nobody s twisting their arms d c sessions speaking for myself note new network address dcs witsend tnet com author and everything else of tmail dos mail news shell
talk.politics.mideast	re final solution for gaza in igc apc org cpr igc apc org center for political reflux wrote pseudo letterhead deleted dcs while israeli jews fete the uprising of the warsaw ghetto they repress by violent means the uprising of the gaza ghetto and attempt to starve the gazans why do i detect the faint scent of bias here could it be because the israelis aren t feasting perhaps because the gazans aren t starving the gaza strip this tiny area of land with the highest population density in the world oh oh i hadn t realized that the chinese had wiped out hong kong or that singapore had sunk into the sea or that several other cities had vanished either that or this is a taste of the quality of research we re about to see has been cut off from the world for weeks so i suppose that the footage on cnn last night was archival and ted turner was faking it after the nbc style or is this another wee little exaggeration for the sake of a greater truth the israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of gaza some people by denying them the right to leave the strip and seek work in israel hey you forgot that israel has also denied syrians the same right come to think of it mexico is denying me that right evan as i write this or are you ever so gently suggesting that israel unlike every other country on earth shouldn t be allowed to control traffic across its borders while polish non jews risked their lives to save jews from the ghetto no israeli jew is known to have risked his life to help the gazan resistance the only help given to gazans by israeli jews only dozens of people is humanitarian assistance this sounds like a parallel but it isn t tell us how many poles went into the ghetto to join the jews there oops for a moment there i forgot that in poland humanitarian assistance could get you killed come to think of it humanitarian assistance to the gazans can get israelis killed too except that in gaza it s likely to be by a gazan death squad in your own office so let s keep the parallel since the gross numbers aren t the same we ll need a proportionality value should we use gazan vs jewish initial population gazan vs jewish death rates gazans vs jews who survived five years of occupation israelis vs nazis attacked by the resistance israelis vs poles charged with aiding the victims since the two cases are so comparable it shouldn t matter which we pick they ll all be about the same right contrary to popular hyperbole the idf could quite easily kill off the entire population of gaza in hours if they wanted to no i m not exaggerating and i really don t want to discuss how note that a million dead gazans don t get much more headline space than a dozen and are just as soon forgotten and once exterminated they can t keep popping up as headlines so if a final solution for gaza would be so much better from a realpolitik standpoint why doesn t israel go for it a difficult question to answer for those who can t believe anything good about jews and probably why they keep trying to force fit the facts into the theory d c sessions speaking for myself note new network address dcs witsend tnet com author and everything else of tmail dos mail news shell
talk.politics.mideast	re rejoinder questions to israelis in a previous article ohayon jcpltyo jcpl co jp tsiel ohayon says i agree with all you write except that terrorist orgs were not shelling israel from the golan heights in but rather from lebanon the golan heights have been held by israel since and therefore the plo could not have been shelling israel from there unless there is something i am not aware of oops small mistake thanks for mentioning it i just read on the israel line that a village just got shelled by terrorists last week and some children were killed i guess the terrorists must have gotten by the security zone just think at how much more shelling would be happening if the security zone weren t there l r steve internet aa freenet carleton ca fidonet mossad qube ocunix on ca my opinions are not associated with anything including my head
talk.politics.mideast	israel an apartheid state not quite arab citizens have the all the same rights as jews arabs are exempt from military service but that is about it arabs have a full voice in israeli politics to the degree that they choose to get involved they may vote there are arabs in the cabinet the claim that israel is an apartheid state is a racist claim one which is based on a total disregard for the facts and a total hatred for israel
talk.politics.mideast	re zionism in article apr das harvard edu adam endor uucp adam shostack writes in article c iqc k cs cmu edu anwar cs cmu edu anwar mohammed writes organization by trying to distribute nazi propaganda furthermore you attempt to rationalize this through crude stereotyping by pointing to the wtc bombing in which arab americans had no involvement huh mohamed salimeh was perhaps a korean how do you claim arab americans had no involvement in the wtc bombing ok his involvement is alleged by the fbi which doesn t seem to reliable these days but honestly there is a pile of evidence pointing to them and it seems those were involved this does not mean that all arab americans were involved nor should they be blamed for it but denying that there were some arab americans involved sounds sorta silly to me adam i don t think any of the suspects were americans consequently they could not be arab americans brad hernlem hernlem chess ncsu edu
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii eeb kimbark uchicago edu writes in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes the jews that were stranded on the polish border since no country accepted them are like the arabs stranded on the lebenese border no trials no hearing just expulsion based on guilt due to race not due to race due to membership in an organization which publically proclaimed it would destroy the state which expelled them and furthermore kill a large segment of the citizens of that state based on race actually that s only what the israeli government claims there were no trials held which is a key thing in a free country like the u s
talk.politics.mideast	re the stage is being set in c r gn zh taurus cs nps navy mil mukut alioth cc nps navy mil devadatta mukutmoni writes in article c qprs hw world std com tti world std com joachim martillo writes heap similarly malaysia was founded on the original sins of support for the axis and anti chinese racism on the part of intellectuals opposed to the heritage of enlightenment this is really a strange target for martillo malaysia has fully vindicated itself since it shed its colonial yoke it is a legitimate economic success story its success may not be as dramatic as japan and singapore nevertheless it has fully vindicated itself so advocating anglo colonialism is ludicrous for malaysia next i suppose you will be advocating recolonization of china which is probably experiencing one the greatest sustained economic booms in the history of mankind do you think present day england is in a position to set the stage for any more colonization they will be lucky if they can keep intact what they have with us assistance and proper agreements redeployment of the british and french colonial empires would not be hard primitive rd world elites who resist and who incite resistance among their deluded brainwashed and essentially enslaved populations would get the iraq treatment dream on they are having problems even with deploying ground troops in bosnia public opinion dictates that loss of lives even in miniscule quantities cannot be tolerated in the rich countries this is really wierd if you come to think of it the armed forces are paid to basically to accept the risk of dying if that danger is removed it then has to be viewed as welfare on a grand scale but that is exactly what the public is saying the iraqi operation lead to an extraordinary low level of casualties this is an anomaly a combination of iraqi incompetence and desert terrain any future operation would lead to more casualties for example the bombing in beirut lead to more gi deaths than the whole of desert storm do you really think that scum like nehru ever asked themselves whether the vast majority of indians would be better off under british or local rule nehru was driven by a crude desire for power nationalism was just the vehicle whereby indian nationalists persuaded a lot of poor deluded fools to die in order to give a small elite the power to exploit other indians you obviously have some information that the rest of us are not aware of otherwise it is impossible to draw such outrageous conclusions devadatta santos francois peter mustafa huanghua mukutmoni that s cool i wish everyone had the smae kind of names the world would certainly be a better place javed the one with the name fetish
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli destruction of mosque s in jerusalem in article bec a news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes this issue has been going on for a while and your presentation here of just one reference probably won t resolve this issue to those that oppose your insistence that mosques were destroyed even in your location of this one reference you spend most of your quote dealing with an incidence that while abhorrant has nothing to do with the issue at hand here then at the end of the quote there is an almost off hand comment that two mosques were destroyed to support a claim of this nature what other authors support this incident if identifiable mosques were destroyed they are certainly identifiable they have names and addresses steet location the comment by one reporter does make us wonder if this happened but by no means proves it there is no doubt that israeli authorities ordered the destruction of mosques in the vicinity of the wailing wall that does not mean however that once can generalize from this to any other points the entire plaza mosques and all was cleared to make it possible for jews to have a place to worship in the place that was holiest to many of them and which had been denied to them for millenia on the other hand throughout the rest of jerusalem and israel to the best of my knowledge israeli authorities have scrupulously avoided damage to any islamic religious sites this contrasts with the policies of previous regimes which destroyed jewish synagogues out of hate and bigotry jack f love opinions expressed are mine alone unless you happen to agree
talk.politics.mideast	mosque in jewish quarter was re israeli destruction of in eggertj may moses ll mit edu eggertj moses ll mit edu jim eggert x g writes it is important to note that there remains at least one mosque in the jewish quarter of the old city at least according to my map you might be able to find it just north of the hurva synagogue is this mosque really still there was this mosque built by squatters too when i was in jerusalem a couple of years ago our guide told us the story of that mosque not sure if it was true apparently it was built by a jewish convert to islam he had had a dispute with his neighbours and built the mosque davka to annoy them it s a cute story but not sure if it s true david f skoll
talk.politics.mideast	re israel an apartheid state in article may colorado edu perlman qso colorado edu eric s perlman writes i believe that zionism as it is is a form of racism by as it is i mean not the fact that is nacionalism but the specific ideas it supports the form it defines what a jew is and the way it wants to accomplish its goals it has nothing to do with hypocrisy it has everything to do with hypocrisy we ve dealt with with your arguments about history before on this net suffice it to say you haven t succeeded in convincing anyone probably because of their lack of basis i do not want to convince anyone this is just usenet not the real world i just read the opinions others have about a subject and sometimes i present my opinion i think that this net is only useful to exchange ideas i never wanted nor i want now to convince anyone of anything now if you want to deal with what certain people say that is fine but by condemning the movement which is nothing more than jewish nationalism and never has been anything more than that you are saying quite literally that it is racist to think that jews your own people it should be added have the right to a state in their homeland the same right every other nation has if you don t agree with that i suggest you read a dictionary because your interpretation is just plain inconsistent with that dictionary definition as well as modern history first and i repeat it i never said that the idea of jews having the right to have a state is racist zionism as a movement is more than just that idea i think that zionism in the way it defines who is a jew for example is racist like in the same way i believe that irish have a right to nationalism but i do not support the bombing and killing of the ira i believe that jews have a right to nationalism but i do not support zionism as it is right now here s where you re wrong here s also where you should know you re wrong zionism is in no way monolithic never has been approaches to zionism are as widespread as the ideologies of hashomer hatzair and meir kahane some of those approaches are racist kahane for one but every approach to zionism defines those goals differently and also defines a different approach to those goals the single commonality is the belief that jews like every other nation on earth deserve their own homeland period that is what makes the basis for zionist movements however i am not considering just that but the rest of it as long as zionism considers for example who is a jew in a jewish state based on religion i will consider zionism a form of racism as you well know over of israeli jews are secular in other words they are in no way religious and most probably don t even believe in g d which makes an interesting point people living in a jewish state have shown that jewish culture includes in it jewish religion but they are not the same so the jewish people living in the jewish state have shown us that there are some problems in a state where of the people is secular but judaism is define according to religious standards or where marriage is a religious stage or where the law of return defines a jew according to a religious standard did those israelis who do not believe in god and will never do become non jews why should they still define then a jew based on what is a religious definition maybe i would consider hypocrisy to support zionism and disregard the right to self determination of the palestinian people and their struggle to reach it if you d wanted to say that in the first place you should have said it then i took you at your word in other words i took your words to have their normal dictionary definition it is now quite obvious that you use a different dictionary than the rest of the english speaking world and that you base your analysis on misconceptions according to webster s ninth new collegiate dictionary merriam webster inc publishers springfield massachusetts u s a page hy poc ri sy a feigning to be what one is nnot or to believe one does not so saying that one believes in zionism as a simple matter of people having the right to nationalism but disregarding the right of the palestinian people to do the same according to this dictionary is hypocrisy if you are really interested on what i think instead of directly coming with labels like hypocrat send me a mail to aap wam umd edu and we can exchange ideas how about learning what your words mean for once i stand by what i ve said i know what my words mean i do stand by what i said i believe zionism is a form of racism of course i tend to talk about things as they are and not as they are defined in a broad sense eric s perlman perlman qso colorado edu center for astrophysics and space astronomy university of colorado boulder aap
talk.politics.mideast	apology to anisa i would like to publicly apologize to our anisa aldoubosh for playing well anisa i am not sure that i feel the necessary remorse you and another muslim lady hanan ashrawi seems to me to be some attempt to charm the west into forgetting what you are really saying it is not that we hate muslims but we hate certain things you are saying every now and then and it is depressing to ponder the prospects for peace while those wievs are held by your people not that we are better then you we have our own prejudices and vices in the west thank you but your views are really depressing thus i have fallen in the temptation to tease and make a little fun instead of and have problems to mobilize the necessary remorse best regards jens peter reus christensen associate professor dr phil department of mathematics e mail reus math ku dk university of copenhagen universitetsparken phone dk copenhagen fax disclaimer except when explicitly stated otherwise any message with this signature is the authors purely private responsibility motto for everyone who has will be given more and he will have an abundance whoever does not have even what he has will be taken from him matthew principle matth ch v
talk.politics.mideast	dicknose profile szwilso chip ucdavis edu writes to adam shostack adam endor uucp as even though the point of your article seemed to be to flame i as felt i should point out that the lions share of us foreign aid goes to as germany where the us stationed a hundered thousand troops for as years while the germans kicked our economic collective ass the as money that goes to israel is miniscule compared to what goes to as germany what an evasive comparison u s troops stationed in germany or anywhere else is the world is not foreign aid numbnuts are you sure you re not a closet holocaust revisionist adam i have a suggestion for you write to your congressman or senator and ask him or her for the official definition of foreign aid and just who are the recipients of such israel is definitely on the top of the heap no matter how you try to twist the truth why don t you pull your head out of your ass and into reality first off what is the deal with your subject lines do you think that you are being funny ha ha what a developed sense of humor you have i m surprised they let you out of the cage why don t we not talk about the official definition of foreign aid and talk about where money is really spent more money is spent stationing troops in germany ie paying the troops maintaining bases and equip etc than in israel plus israel does not ask the us to send troops to fight her battles if you look at the amount of money spent defending korean shipping lanes norway and other trouble spots in the world you will see that aid to israel from a practical standpoint is not that much and so what so what if israel gets the most assuming i buy your feeble argument what is your point do you not want to subsidize israel well you have two options start your own campaign get elected as president and then force congress to cut all aid to israel or get the fuck out if you don t like how this country operates and can t change it then move to iran or something all my love ed
talk.politics.mideast	addressing turkish genocide apology turkish historical revision in auto scribal residue zuma uucp sera zuma uucp serdar argic posted the following source adventures in the near east by a rawlinson jonathan cape bedford square london first published pages memoirs of a british officer who witnessed the armenian genocide of million muslim people bull p second paragraph i had received further very definite information of horrors that had been committed by the armenian soldiery in kars plain and as i had been able to judge of their want of discipline by their treatment of my own detached parties i had wired to tiflis from zivin that in the interests of humanity the armenians should not be left in independent command of the moslem population as their troops being without discipline and not under effective control atrocities were constantly being committed for which we should with justice eventually be held to be morally responsible on page in my copy of the rawlinson book we find following facsimile note the word armenian doesn t even appear adventures in the near east disposal for our journey i foresaw it would have to become our headquarters for a considerable time and therefore went to some trouble to make it habitable we had a most peculiar little locomotive originally built in america for the russian government adapted to burn either wood or oil one covered truck as men s quarters one similar which i fitted up for my self and a railway officer and also a truck to carry wood three cars being the utmost our small engine could pull with this small outfit we started rumours of all kinds reaching us before our departure indicating that the whole situation was rapidly coming to a head it being evident that the turks were becoming more and more restive in the face of the inexplicable delay of the allies in reaching any definite decision with regard to the future travelling on this little war time railway was indeed an experience and it was necessary to carry a gauge and to test the rails with it frequently for in many places owing to the sinking of the embankments and the washing away of the ballast the rails required rectification before we were able to get our train over even at a foot pace each bridge also re quired elaborate examination before adventuring the train upon it and eventually we were obliged to carry large baulks of tim ber to temporarily shore up many of the bridges and culverts whilst we passed over them under these circumstances it may be imagined that our prog ress was by no means rapid and as we had frequently to halt also to replenish our supply of wood fuel we considered we had achieved wonders when on the evening of the second day hours and miles out from erzeroum we finally entered the gorge of the mountains where we understood our worst troubles to lie this is the same gorge into which the road from erzeroum to kars descends from the foot hills to cross the frontier the railway however follows the main aras river val ley till the frontier gorge enters it whilst the road cuts off the corner and joins the rail again at the frontier post of zivin some miles from the main valley soon after entering the gorge we were confronted by the first serious fall of rock about tons having fallen from the cliff face and entirely obliterated the railway track here therefore we halted and sending our engine back prepared to david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia has not learned a lesson in s d p a center for regional studies anatolia and has forgotten the p o box punishment inflicted on it cambridge ma late turkish president turgut ozal
talk.politics.mideast	re the stage is being set in article c sqco iid ucdavis edu ez hamlet ucdavis edu writes after reading plenty of categorical remarks claiming the arrival of the restoration of colonialismo could anyone define colonialismo indicate what colonial countries remain indicate what changes indicate that there is a restoration in the making pakistan definitely comes in ambit of the economic colonialism the utility rates electricity water and gas are set by imf and world bank governments come and go at whims and fancy of the state department i have yet to see a pakistani govt survive that doesnot have the support of the state department
talk.politics.mideast	re the stage is being set in article c sqco iid ucdavis edu ez hamlet ucdavis edu writes after reading plenty of categorical remarks claiming the arrival of the restoration of colonialismo could anyone define colonialismo indicate what colonial countries remain indicate what changes indicate that there is a restoration in the making i ll leave questions and to be answered elsewhere but on question something in the noos today might be an example of the restoration might be namely that the clinton administration is considering asking the un to establish a police force for haiti i didn t hear any thing that said that the current govt of haiti asked for it nor is there any real precedent barring somalia for the un getting involved in internal conflicts that might also answer question the neo colonial countries are a diffuse lot the un security council and while i am at it i ll take a stab at the new colonialism as defined in most articles i have read would entail something of the nature of trusteeship under the un sec council democracy aid education free markets free press and then out for the colonialists now assured that there is a civilized country that they have left behind note i don t support this idealized concept simply because i think it is a lot of hogwash srinivas sunder sunder crhc uiuc edu if the university of illinois shares these views i d be surprised they aren t that smart generally
talk.politics.mideast	re israel an apartheid state in article may colorado edu perlman qso colorado edu eric s perlman writes in article slo e ag cville srv wam umd edu aap wam umd edu alberto adolfo pinkas writes i do not want to convince anyone this is just usenet not the real world i just read the opinions others have about a subject and sometimes i present my opinion i think that this net is only useful to exchange ideas i never wanted nor i want now to convince anyone of anything fine now if your opinion isn t convincing anyone and it s getting refuted regularly by the facts which is the case isn t it likely that your opinions need some revision as i said i do not want to convice anyone so why should my opinions convince anyone i do not believe that my opinions are refuted by facts first and i repeat it i never said that the idea of jews having the right to have a state is racist zionism as a movement is more than just that idea in a word utter and complete horse puckey look the term up in the dictionary maybe youy view of a dictionary is the problem here one thing is the accepted meaning of a word by a dictionary and sometimes a completely different thing is what that word came to mean after a long time i think that zionism in the way it defines who is a jew for example is racist like ok now how would you define it and by the way you re wrong again there is no uniformity of this definition among zionist movements you know this is the case it s been pointed out on the net directly to you before and yet you continue to maintain this delusion ok tell me how many people in zionist movements define a jew in a different way and how many are who define jew based on a religious way in the same way i believe that irish have a right to nationalism but i do not support the bombing and killing of the ira i believe that jews have a right to nationalism but i do not support zionism as it is right now comparing the actions of israel to that of the ira is like comparing those of the us to those of chile under pinochet for example with the ira in the role of pinochet you really need to get your history straight you also need a basic dictionary you need to start reading before answering my point was that because some movement claims to be nationalistic it does not mean that i consider it to be nationalistic i did not comapre israel to the ira i think that you are starting to put words on my mouth and that is wrong stuff deleted by pinkas his statement which i was responding to with the below asserted that zionism was uniform and monolithic i never said that zionism is monolithic if you are going to attribute me things present the quotes where i said that that is what makes the basis for zionist movements however i am not considering just that but the rest of it in a word i don t believe you your words tell a very different story especially since they are not based on fact but innuendo and misrepresentation that is your problem i could certainly interpret this like you are running out of arguments first you put words in my mouth now you say you do ot believe me which makes an interesting point people living in a jewish state have shown that jewish culture includes in it jewish religion but they are not the same so the jewish people living in the jewish state have shown us that there are some problems in a state where of the people is secular but judaism is define according to religious standards or where marriage is a religious stage or where the law of return defines a jew according to a religious standard no it doesn t nowhere does the law of return demand that one must be religious or even believe in g d to become a citizen of israel thereunder why don t you try reading for a change did i say that the law of return demand a person to be religious now how does the law of return define who is a jew and who is not i said that it uses a religious standard if your mother is a jew you are a jew if your mother is not jewish neither you are do not twist my words please true there are debates in israel and abroad about who is a jew but those debates are taken up by both religious and secular would you say that religious people should not have a say in that would you deny them their right of free speech i am not talking about the debate i am talking about how things are right now when the debate is over i ll see what happens right now things are like they are let me ask you one thing i understand that israel differenciates between citizenship and nationality suppose m ale and f emale have a child in israel which nationality will the child s id show according to each one of the following cases a f and m are both jewish b f is jewsh and m is not c f is muslim and m is jewish d f is christian and m is jewish e f and m are both non jewish did those israelis who do not believe in god and will never do become non jews why should they still define then a jew based on what is a religious definition it s called history how do you think jews stuck together through pogroms for millenia in europe we had to know who was our own i for one do think that some change is in order and that patrilineal descent is no less legit than is matrilineal which is not the religious jew s point of view there s plenty of room for that in zionism as you well know it called history at some point it was ok now i believe it is not according to webster s ninth new collegiate dictionary merriam webster inc publishers springfield massachusetts u s a page hy poc ri sy a feigning to be what one is nnot or to believe one does not so saying that one believes in zionism as a simple matter of people having the right to nationalism but disregarding the right of the palestinian people to do the same according to this dictionary is hypocrisy utter baloney by the way i do believe the palestinians have a right to self determination have stated so on this net and i know you ve seen it interesting how do you know had i ever talked to you about this and forgotten about that but that right to self determination cannot be at israel s expense israel s security comes first and that security must be maintained you re also twisting words now beyond belief if you think that s what that definition means in this context you need a first grade course in english which definition are you now talking here about i do not know why you are so touchy i never said that you did not support palestinian self determination i just gave an example of hypocrisy i never said that someone in this net is guilty of it it was just an example nothing more nothing less than that why did you have to clarify what you think if you didn t use different meanings of words than are in the dictionary you might be believable here you have several problems first you should know that words have more meanings than those given in the dictionary second it may come to be a shock for you to know that there are more words than those in the dictionary third we can exchange ideas if you want but you come out with this nonsense about being believable using the definitions given in a dictionary it seems that you cannot answer to the ideas given by others without insulting others sad if your facts at all resembled even the slightest bit of truth which they do not you might be believable if you did not put words in my mouth it might be that you might start reading what i had actually said so far you come over and over twisting what i said or presenting things i never said as if i had said them in this way you are answering to yourself that is why you do not find it believable maybe if you start reading what i had actually said and not what you added you might change your mind but the fact is that there is nothing resembling fact in what you ve said on this thread and the fact also is that you re using different definitions for your words based on baloney than anyone else does first there is nothing resembling a fact in what you added to what i said as if i had said it seconf anyone else is supposed to mean than i do eric s perlman perlman qso colorado edu center for astrophysics and space astronomy university of colorado boulder aap
talk.politics.mideast	re more liar s profiles shostack freeman death in article may colorado edu perlman qso colorado edu eric s perlman writes to eric s perlman perlman qso colorado edu your posts make a good case study for an unashamed misanthrope instead of attempting to enlightening pinkas about the errors of his ways and even after he politely asked you to continue the debate in email you persist in publicly lambasting him and labeling him a hypocryte your posts not mine fit this description what was the very first thing you did upon entering this newsgroup treat everyone who didn t agree with your opinions as dirt not explain to them why call them very rude names twist words for flames need i go on i can defend myself quite well against pinkas thank you there is nothing you need to defend yourself against as i said i just exchange ideas over the usenet with other people i never attacked you as to put you in the need to defend yourself against me i am not a violent person and i do not see how can anyone be threatened by the opinions and ideas of others as expressed on usenet i asked you to continue on email because i am not interested on a flamefest where you change my words or just make up some of your own and present them as mine so do not worry you do not need to defend yourself because i am not attacking you next time you try making such comments try some basic civility and you might get somewhere this is a good advice for yourself nuff said eric s perlman perlman qso colorado edu center for astrophysics and space astronomy university of colorado boulder alberto a pinkas aap wam umd edu ap umail umd edu
talk.politics.mideast	re the israeli press in article benali alcor benali alcor concordia ca ilyess b bdira writes bc cleveland freenet edu mark ira kaufman writes for your information on israel since i read both american media and israeli media i can say with absolute certainty that anybody who reliesx exclusively on the american press for knowledge about israel does not have a true picture of what is going on of course you never read arab media i read arab israeli jer post and this network is more than enough the jerusalem post is only a small part of the israeli media one that caters to outsiders for the most part anyways if you never read ha aretz maariv or other hebrew langauge papers or at least seen some of their articles translated you are not really getting the israeli media and western american french and british reports and i can say that if we give israel and arabs on the bias scale of course you can switch the polarities israeli newspapers will get either a or american leading newspapers and tv news range from inlcuding some of the left leaning ones to yes there are some that are more israelis than israelis a to a is that why stations such as pbs have run shows which do not depict the israeli standpoint at all is that why the intifada got more coverage in and than did saddamn gassing kurds by the thousands the montreal suburban a local free newspaper probably is closer to kahane s views than some israeli right wing newspapers british i am from montreal i read the suburban did they ever advocate the kahane stupidity of expelling the arabs are they racist the suburban has some columnists that explain the israeli standpoint they are nothing like kahane in any case the suburban is a paper with a minor local distribution and no influence range from neutral to french that iknow of of course range from afro french magazines to arab official media range from to egyptian to in sa why no because they do not want to overdo it and stir people against israel and therefore against them since they are doing nothing as to the claim that israeli papers are biased of course they are some may lean to the right or the left just like the media here in america but they still report events about which people here know nothing i choose to form my opinions about israel and the mideast based on more knowledge than does an average american who relies exclusively on an american media which does not report on events in the mideast with any consistency or accuracy the average bias of what you read would be probably around while that of the average american would be the same if they do not read or read the new york times and similar news makers and if they read some other relatively less biased newspapers so you are not better off so what source is the closest thing to a zero ishay
talk.politics.mideast	stop all the cross postings do not and i repeat do not cross post the following subjects to soc culture iranian re jews supports serbs re arab leaders and bosnia re hizballah in bosnia re the stage is being set that s all we need here more bigotry and hate believe me we have already reached our quota for the year try again next year behzad
talk.politics.mideast	re uva in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes a few things about the university it is more fun than some may admit partying does go on and it has consistently been ranked one of playboy s top party schools but we do study and more what kind of ranking system is used ishay
talk.politics.mideast	re final solution for gaza in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes there are basically three alternatives for gaza to throw the jews to the sea that is basically to make them leave the middle east and go back to where they came from russia europe usa etc to throw the gazans into the sea in accordance with yitzhak rabin s wish and that of many zionists rabin is the pm did he ever indicate such a wish try to implement it for israelis and palestinians to come to an honorable and fair i don t attempt to say just settlement which would allow each person to live in dignity in his country in freedom and equality i personnaly opt for the third alternative how about you folks elias i opt for the third ish
talk.politics.mideast	re israel an apartheid state in article may colorado edu perlman qso colorado edu eric s perlman writes in a word utter and complete horse puckey look the term up in the dictionary ok lets look into this according to my dictionary zi on ism an international movement orig for the establishment of a jewish national or religious community in palestine and later for the support of modern israel now i do not support the establishment of nations based on religious principles while i support the establishment of nations based on cultural identities so here are some questions i have to ask for anyone to answer my point is what someone said long time ago in politics like with men it is important to distiguish between what they say they do and what they are actually doing my mother is jewish and so is my father if i apply for the law of return do i get in as a jew trying to return to his land from which my family was expelled about years ago if i go back which nationality would my id show if i decided to go back to the land from which my relatives had been expelled years ago but first i convert to any other religion can i apply to the law of return as a member of the jewish nation or should i apply as someone whose mother is jewish which nationality would show my id in case what has change in me between the day before and the day after i converted to loose my being part of the jewish nation suppose i want to get married to my current wife who is non jewish in israel how do i do it how would my situation change if i decided after going back to israel to convert to islam now here is one more question i do believe that most people in a country do not care about politics they just want to be left alone suppose my father is arab suppose he was born in palestine in some place which now is part of israel suppose that his father and his grandfather as well as or generations before him were born in that place now suppose there is a war of independence and my father scared by all the fighting going on tries to take his family to a place more secure among people he knows who speak a language he understands who worship the same god now suppose that that place is some other arab country and now suppose that the war is over and that there is a new country created where my father used to live and that that country is called israel and that in that country jews from all over the world are received and that people whose family left thet country generation ago are recieved and granted full citizenship should i if i decided to go back to my father s land where he was born as or generations of my family were born have the right to go back and ask to be recognized in the same way those who are returning after years then finally people ask me how i would define a jew but that is irrelevant i am not talking about how i would define a jew but about how people in zionist organizations and more important in israel define a jew how would those who are zionist define a jew eric s perlman perlman qso colorado edu center for astrophysics and space astronomy university of colorado boulder aap
talk.politics.mideast	illegal postings from szljubi at ucdavis to all the readers of talk politics mideast alt flame alt stupidity i am posting this message on behalf of a staff member at ucdavis whose account had been broken into and used to post offensive messages to all these groups dave begin included message from szljubi othello ucdavis edu please be advised that the person s sending to you the inflammatory remarks you have been receiving have been doing so by illegally accessing my account our campus information technology security group has cut off my account s access to this hacker and every effort is being made to track down this person i apologize profusely that you have been subjected to the derogatory comments made by this person and i detest that my name was attached to them thank you to those of you who alerted our campus security about the nature of this problem sincerely p ljubi o o ooo ooo david zavatson mein schatz es ist soweit unsere liebe ist vorbei dhzavatson ucdavis edu ich kann nicht von dir gehen zwei gefuehle bleiben ucd news administrator stehen liebe und hass sind sich doch so nah eco
talk.politics.mideast	rally for bosnia washington d c saturday may the following announcement is from the bosnia task force usa yusuf islam formerly cat stevens of london and muhammad ali former heavyweight champion will be the grand marshals of the washington rally on saturday may twenty to twenty five thousands are expected to march demanding an end to genocide in bosnia rally will begin pm from lafayette park in front of white house in the largest planned rally ever by muslims in america the bosnia task force usa has called upon all muslims in the usa to hold rallies through out the usa muslims in miles radius are however requested to come to washington d c for a rally in front of the white house the rally will start sharp at pm on may in front of the white house and will march to capitol hill all are requested to be in lafayette park by noon it is going to be a big rally more than persons are expected to participate new york is targeting buses people as far as texas and arizona are coming never in washington s history have so many muslims have marched before are you ready for this historical event call every one you know to bring them to rally our demands recognize the genocidal nature of the milosevic regime and its aggression lift the arms embargo from the bosnian government provide the bosnian government with arms for self defence use nato air power to enforce the will and conscience of the world community on serbia begin the war crime tribunals immediately if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem members of the bosnia task force usa isna icna ministry of imam w deen mohammed the national community bosnia action committee of chicago majlis shura new york american muslim council michigan islamic council balkan muslim association phone fax anyone who is interested in putting an end to the genocide being committed in bosnia should join this rally regardless of his her religious association
talk.politics.mideast	re israel an apartheid state in article sm h qek cville srv wam umd edu aap wam umd edu alberto adolfo pinkas writes in article may colorado edu perlman qso colorado edu eric s perlman writes in article slo e ag cville srv wam umd edu aap wam umd edu alberto adolfo pinkas writes i do not want to convince anyone this is just usenet not the real world i just read the opinions others have about a subject and sometimes i present my opinion i think that this net is only useful to exchange ideas i never wanted nor i want now to convince anyone of anything fine now if your opinion isn t convincing anyone and it s getting refuted regularly by the facts which is the case isn t it likely that your opinions need some revision as i said i do not want to convice anyone so why should my opinions convince anyone i do not believe that my opinions are refuted by facts then you haven t been paying attention to the arguments levelled against them they have been over and over again they will be again first and i repeat it i never said that the idea of jews having the right to have a state is racist zionism as a movement is more than just that idea in a word utter and complete horse puckey look the term up in the dictionary maybe youy view of a dictionary is the problem here one thing is the accepted meaning of a word by a dictionary and sometimes a completely different thing is what that word came to mean after a long time hey what do you think dictionaries are for you quite obviously need one a good dictionary gives both and you well know it i think that zionism in the way it defines who is a jew for example is racist like ok now how would you define it and by the way you re wrong again there is no uniformity of this definition among zionist movements you know this is the case it s been pointed out on the net directly to you before and yet you continue to maintain this delusion ok tell me how many people in zionist movements define a jew in a different way and how many are who define jew based on a religious way i don t think that data exist on this directly in the same way i believe that irish have a right to nationalism but i do not support the bombing and killing of the ira i believe that jews have a right to nationalism but i do not support zionism as it is right now comparing the actions of israel to that of the ira is like comparing those of the us to those of chile under pinochet for example with the ira in the role of pinochet you really need to get your history straight you also need a basic dictionary you need to start reading before answering my point was that because some movement claims to be nationalistic it does not mean that i consider it to be nationalistic i did not comapre israel to the ira i think that you are starting to put words on my mouth and that is wrong that is no problem but once again you are defining zionism as one movement you are implying that it is monolithic you know this is not and has never been the case stuff deleted by pinkas his statement which i was responding to with the below asserted that zionism was uniform and monolithic i never said that zionism is monolithic if you are going to attribute me things present the quotes where i said that you don t say it directly you implied it and i showed explicitly where and how you implied it now you re trying to wriggle out of it won t wash and you know it that is what makes the basis for zionist movements however i am not considering just that but the rest of it in a word i don t believe you your words tell a very different story especially since they are not based on fact but innuendo and misrepresentation that is your problem i could certainly interpret this like you are running out of arguments first you put words in my mouth now you say you do ot believe me it s you not me who is running out of arguments which makes an interesting point people living in a jewish state have shown that jewish culture includes in it jewish religion but they are not the same so the jewish people living in the jewish state have shown us that there are some problems in a state where of the people is secular but judaism is define according to religious standards or where marriage is a religious stage or where the law of return defines a jew according to a religious standard no it doesn t nowhere does the law of return demand that one must be religious or even believe in g d to become a citizen of israel thereunder why don t you try reading for a change did i say that the law of return demand a person to be religious now how does the law of return define who is a jew and who is not i said that it uses a religious standard if your mother is a jew you are a jew if your mother is not jewish neither you are do not twist my words please what you said is that judaism is defined according to religious standards now this can have several different meanings and you know it one of the meanings that it can have is to say that only those who are religious are defined as jews another is to say that only those who meet the religious definition of a jew is one and there are others i m not twisting your words i m trying to make you aware that your words don t mean what you think they do true there are debates in israel and abroad about who is a jew but those debates are taken up by both religious and secular would you say that religious people should not have a say in that would you deny them their right of free speech i am not talking about the debate i am talking about how things are right now when the debate is over i ll see what happens right now things are like they are let me ask you one thing i understand that israel differenciates between citizenship and nationality suppose m ale and f emale have a child in israel which nationality will the child s id show according to each one of the following cases actually it doesn t and the citizens rights are exactly the same in both cases anyway a f and m are both jewish jewish b f is jewsh and m is not jewish c f is muslim and m is jewish d f is christian and m is jewish it ll depend on what religion is practiced in the house the original law of return would still admit such a person if they were jewish if memory serves e f and m are both non jewish not jewish did those israelis who do not believe in god and will never do become non jews why should they still define then a jew based on what is a religious definition it s called history how do you think jews stuck together through pogroms for millenia in europe we had to know who was our own i for one do think that some change is in order and that patrilineal descent is no less legit than is matrilineal which is not the religious jew s point of view there s plenty of room for that in zionism as you well know it called history at some point it was ok now i believe it is not that s valid as far as i can see according to webster s ninth new collegiate dictionary merriam webster inc publishers springfield massachusetts u s a page hy poc ri sy a feigning to be what one is nnot or to believe one does not so saying that one believes in zionism as a simple matter of people having the right to nationalism but disregarding the right of the palestinian people to do the same according to this dictionary is hypocrisy utter baloney by the way i do believe the palestinians have a right to self determination have stated so on this net and i know you ve seen it interesting how do you know had i ever talked to you about this and forgotten about that more than once as have others but that right to self determination cannot be at israel s expense israel s security comes first and that security must be maintained you re also twisting words now beyond belief if you think that s what that definition means in this context you need a first grade course in english which definition are you now talking here about the very one you give above it is absolutely inconsistent with the twist you put on it i do not know why you are so touchy i never said that you did not support palestinian self determination i just gave an example of hypocrisy no you didn t you had to twist the definition of the word degrees in order to do so and everyone else knows it i m not being touchy i never said that someone in this net is guilty of it it was just an example nothing more nothing less than that why did you have to clarify what you think because what you gave was not an example it was an example of how the definition of a word can be twisted around degrees if you didn t use different meanings of words than are in the dictionary you might be believable here you have several problems first you should know that words have more meanings than those given in the dictionary oh so now what are dictionaries for second it may come to be a shock for you to know that there are more words than those in the dictionary duh as a scientist whose technical terms are very often not found in common dictionaries i know this but when a term is common like hypocrisy a good dictionary can be regarded as an authoritative source third we can exchange ideas if you want but you come out with this nonsense about being believable using the definitions given in a dictionary it s not nonsense when people read what you write they have to try to associate a meaning to those words dictionaries give the meanings of words don t they now i assume that you d like to have the words you use mean what you d like them to but the fact is you re using very different meanings than are in the dictionary or you would like the reader to assign them new meanings which they never had it seems that you cannot answer to the ideas given by others without insulting others sad not at all what i cannot abide is utter bombast when you ve been proven completely wrong if your facts at all resembled even the slightest bit of truth which they do not you might be believable if you did not put words in my mouth it might be that you might start reading what i had actually said i never put even one syllable in your mouth you have tried to prove this and you failed so far you come over and over twisting what i said or presenting things i never said as if i had said them poppycock in this way you are answering to yourself that is why you do not find it believable maybe if you start reading what i had actually said and not what you added you might change your mind i read what you said i did not add anything you simply either don t know that the words don t mean what you d like them to which cannot be the case now since you ve been proven wrong and you quite obviously don t have a defense against the arguments presented or you re twisting the meanings which is it but the fact is that there is nothing resembling fact in what you ve said on this thread and the fact also is that you re using different definitions for your words based on baloney than anyone else does first there is nothing resembling a fact in what you added to what i said as if i had said it ha there s nothing resembling fact in what you ve said i never added anything to what you said how sad to see a model of decorum and tranquillity become like any other sport a battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee tim rice chess eric s perlman perlman qso colorado edu center for astrophysics and space astronomy university of colorado boulder
talk.politics.mideast	re israel an apartheid state in article smbma mr cville srv wam umd edu aap wam umd edu alberto adolfo pinkas writes if i decided to go back to the land from which my relatives had been expelled years ago but first i convert to any other religion can i apply to the law of return as a member of the jewish nation or should i apply as someone whose mother is jewish i m not sure about this but i hope the answer is that you can t apply under the law of return by conversion you ve elected not to be a part of the jewish nation what has change in me between the day before and the day after i converted to loose my being part of the jewish nation at the moment you converted you officially anounced to the world that you do not consider yourself to be part of the jewish nation so why should the jewish nation consider you to be a member suppose my father is arab suppose he was born in palestine in some place which now is part of israel suppose that his father and his grandfather as well as or generations before him were born in that place now suppose there is a war of independence and my father scared by all the fighting going on tries to take his family to a place more secure among people he knows who speak a language he understands who worship the same god now suppose that that place is some other arab country and now suppose that the war is over and that there is a new country created where my father used to live and that that country is called israel and that in that country jews from all over the world are received and that people whose family left thet country generation ago are recieved and granted full citizenship should i if i decided to go back to my father s land where he was born as or generations of my family were born have the right to go back and ask to be recognized in the same way those who are returning after years no as a result of wars brought by the arabs against the jews in an attempt to annihilate israel the arabs have lost their claim to land there attacking israel is was illegal and they now have to pay the price do i feel sorry for the palestinians yes i do but i blame the arab nations for their problems not israel adam schwartz adams robotics berkeley edu
talk.politics.mideast	re the stage is being set srinivas suder writes if the haitian people s will is that their current govt get thrown out they ll find a way to do it getting the us un to short cut the process will only hasten it but sets a bad precedent can the us interfere everywhere why not right at our doorstep cuba precisely why not cuba why not the hatians are being ruled by thugs and their elected leader has asked support to reestablish the peoples will if the u s or any other democracy wishes to they are in the perfect right to help them without any whining from thir parties after all if it turns out to be colonialism and the poeple don t like it they find a way to throw them out there is an implicit assumption here that we as outsiders have a right to sit in judgement of another people and to then act on it to me it is in there that the roots of old colonial attitudes lie today the motives are noble tomorrow they may not be who ever said people who commit genocide have the right to commit genocide i want a world where criminals agains humanity have no place to hide while you want special sovereignties designed to protect them nobody has the right to commit crimes against humanity and if they do they loose all right to self determination if this is classical colonialism then so be it edelmiro salas
talk.politics.mideast	re israel an apartheid state in article may colorado edu perlman qso colorado edu eric s perlman writes fine now if your opinion isn t convincing anyone and it s getting refuted regularly by the facts which is the case isn t it likely that your opinions need some revision as i said i do not want to convice anyone so why should my opinions convince anyone i do not believe that my opinions are refuted by facts then you haven t been paying attention to the arguments levelled against them they have been over and over again they will be again so far you have presented your opinions as opposed to mine i would hardly take them as facts maybe youy view of a dictionary is the problem here one thing is the accepted meaning of a word by a dictionary and sometimes a completely different thing is what that word came to mean after a long time hey what do you think dictionaries are for you quite obviously need one a good dictionary gives both and you well know it i could give you hundreds of words in my mother tongue spanish that are comonly use and you will never find in a dictionary even more i could show you a lot of meanings that words in spanish have different from those in the dictionary ok tell me how many people in zionist movements define a jew in a different way and how many are who define jew based on a religious way i don t think that data exist on this directly and guess why isn t it curious that we do not know how many people define in how many different ways the term jew which is the basis of the movement itself so the evidence shows that up to now jew when considered in terms of israel the law of return and jewish nationality is defined in terms of religion and not of cultural identity even if of those defined as jews in isreal are not religious in the same way i believe that irish have a right to nationalism but i do not support the bombing and killing of the ira i believe that jews have a right to nationalism but i do not support zionism as it is right now comparing the actions of israel to that of the ira is like comparing those of the us to those of chile under pinochet for example with the ira in the role of pinochet you really need to get your history straight you also need a basic dictionary you need to start reading before answering my point was that because some movement claims to be nationalistic it does not mean that i consider it to be nationalistic i did not comapre israel to the ira i think that you are starting to put words on my mouth and that is wrong that is no problem but once again you are defining zionism as one movement you are implying that it is monolithic you know this is not and has never been the case that is a problem i am saying that i do not support zionism as it is now i believe that among the people in the soviet communist party some might even had been inspired by noble ideals does that change the final results of what happened in the ussr in the same way even if the zionist movement is not homogeneous it does not matter what matters is the result i never said that zionism is monolithic if you are going to attribute me things present the quotes where i said that you don t say it directly you implied it and i showed explicitly where and how you implied it now you re trying to wriggle out of it won t wash and you know it i never said it directly nor indirectly i am not talking about individuals who defined themselves as zionists here i am sure most of them are good honest and caring people i am talking about the results of the zionist movement i am talking about a movement whose actions resulted in a law of return with a religious definition of jew a country that defines nationality based on religion i am talking about something i consider a form of racism such as differenciation based on religious belief after all if arabs in israel cannot serve in the army is becasue they were not born in the right religion what you said is that judaism is defined according to religious standards now this can have several different meanings and you know it one of the meanings that it can have is to say that only those who are religious are defined as jews another is to say that only those who meet the religious definition of a jew is one and there are others i m not twisting your words i m trying to make you aware that your words don t mean what you think they do i had never heard the definition only those who are religious are defined as jews i had always seen the definition a person is a jew is his her mother is was a jew and if such person does not convert although i had seen people argue about the last part i am not talking about the debate i am talking about how things are right now when the debate is over i ll see what happens right now things are like they are let me ask you one thing i understand that israel differenciates between citizenship and nationality suppose m ale and f emale have a child in israel which nationality will the child s id show according to each one of the following cases actually it doesn t and the citizens rights are exactly the same in both cases anyway so there is no difference between citizenship and nationality in israel or what do you mean by actually it doesn t a f and m are both jewish jewish b f is jewsh and m is not jewish c f is muslim and m is jewish d f is christian and m is jewish it ll depend on what religion is practiced in the house the original law of return would still admit such a person if they were jewish if memory serves so it follows a religious definition and not a cultural one that is what i call a form of racism i do not know why you are so touchy i never said that you did not support palestinian self determination i just gave an example of hypocrisy no you didn t you had to twist the definition of the word degrees in order to do so and everyone else knows it i m not being touchy you do not need to assume the representation of everybody else to make your points you should assume that you are just talking for yourself about the other stuff i still believe that the example was a valid one it would be a hypocrisy to say that one supports nationalism for all and then support zionism and then disregard the palestinian s right i never said that someone in this net is guilty of it it was just an example nothing more nothing less than that why did you have to clarify what you think because what you gave was not an example it was an example of how the definition of a word can be twisted around degrees it was an example you are trying to justify something nobody has talked about first you should know that words have more meanings than those given in the dictionary oh so now what are dictionaries for reference it s not nonsense when people read what you write they have to try to associate a meaning to those words dictionaries give the meanings of words don t they yes but not all of them a language is something that evolves all the time it seems that you cannot answer to the ideas given by others without insulting others sad not at all what i cannot abide is utter bombast when you ve been proven completely wrong not really i posted in another post the definition of zionism and in this post you have showed for me what i was telling you from the begining zionism is a form of racism even if most zionists are not racist in their individual and private lifes a movement that ask for a state and national rights for a people and then in practice that people are defined according to religion is for me racist like i never put even one syllable in your mouth you have tried to prove this and you failed you did it next time be more careful ha there s nothing resembling fact in what you ve said i never added anything to what you said do you know the difference between opinion and fact eric s perlman perlman qso colorado edu center for astrophysics and space astronomy university of colorado boulder aap
talk.politics.mideast	re the stage is being set in article c tzz m c ucdavis edu ez hamlet ucdavis edu writes srinivas suder writes if the haitian people s will is that their current govt get thrown out they ll find a way to do it getting the us un to short cut the process will only hasten it but sets a bad precedent can the us interfere everywhere why not right at our doorstep cuba precisely why not cuba why not the hatians are being ruled by thugs and their elected leader has asked support to reestablish the peoples will well let s delve one level deeper why is democracy better than tribalism or other means of govt the president of georgia was elected with a thumping majority and booted out later w no objections from the un similarly the people of algeria elected an islamic fundemantalist party into power but the junta declared it illegal in both cases i personally have no problems with the outcome but if the voice of the people is that hallowed thing that the world community claims to revere so why isn t it interfering there the u s or any other democracy wishes to they are in the perfect right to help them without any whining from thir parties after all if it turns out to be colonialism and the poeple don t like it they find a way to throw them out exactly my point is that it will inevitably turn out that way and we can save ourselves a lot of pain and trouble by simply letting people sort out their problems on their own colonial interventions even in haiti haven t worked in the past they had a coups from the us invaded in and left in almost years after they had intended to was it a success well look at haiti today and of the past years and decide for yourself it was a success so long as the us was in from what i remember but it didn t last long obviously there is an implicit assumption here that we as outsiders have a right to sit in judgement of another people and to then act on it to me it is in there that the roots of old colonial attitudes lie today the motives are noble tomorrow they may not be who ever said people who commit genocide have the right to commit genocide nobody did people should have a right to self defense if the un wants to arm the bosnians or haitian revolutionaries or whoever i have no problems with that i do when they cross that line and attempt to re arrange boundaries govts etc the vance owen plan being one such piece of insanity i want a world where criminals agains humanity have no place to hide while you want special sovereignties designed to protect them nobody has the right to commit crimes against humanity and if they do they loose all right to self determination if this is classical colonialism then so be it we finally have a clearly stated point of difference colonialism can have its good side which is as you stated above removing thugs from being able to lord it over powerless people i am worried that the bad side is what will assert itself and i am prepared to let natural forces take their course if that will mean we can avoid the bad side of colonialism srinivas sunder sunder crhc uiuc edu if the university of illinois shares these views i d be surprised they aren t that smart generally
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli destruction of mosque s in jerusalem in article eggertj may moses ll mit edu eggertj moses ll mit edu jim eggert x g writes and in article c kn fh cbnewsj cb att com avr cbnewsj cb att com adam v reed writes i ve read most of the history books dealing with this period good and bad and while it is possible that i missed one or two none of those i ve read documents any razing of mosques so i think that this remarkable claim requires specific documentation jake disrespectfully demands and adam requires specific documentation of the razing of mosques in jerusalem if either of them had been reading t p m for a while they would already have seen such documentation for the forgetful or newcomers however here are the references thanks for posting the references i do not normally read t p m and i posted my request for references because jim s article was cross posted to soc culture jewish allegations of jewish disrespect for the objects and buildings of other religions are one of antisemitic stereotypes that permeate western culture and rumors of church and host desacration probably caused more pogroms than blood libel the stereotypes that pervade our culture create cognitive illusions that reify those stereotypes therefore any claim that appears to reify a stereotype should be treated by decent people with utmost suspicion until and unless documented if such a claim is cross posted to a news group in which it has not been documented before such as s c j a reference should be given the first time it appears now that the claim has been documented i regard the whole episode as disgusting and shameful especially so because the official who failed to provide proper temporary facilities for the evicted jordanians was probably jewish and as a jew i know that he should have known better adam v reed att com
talk.politics.mideast	re israel an apartheid state in article may pasteur berkeley edu adams bellini berkeley edu adam l schwartz writes in article smbma mr cville srv wam umd edu aap wam umd edu alberto adolfo pinkas writes if i decided to go back to the land from which my relatives had been expelled years ago but first i convert to any other religion can i apply to the law of return as a member of the jewish nation or should i apply as someone whose mother is jewish i m not sure about this but i hope the answer is that you can t apply under the law of return by conversion you ve elected not to be a part of the jewish nation which was my point by converting to another religion i do not loose my cultural identity i just loose my religious identification i consider that defining the belonging to a nation that claims the right to have a state based on religious belief is a form of racism what has change in me between the day before and the day after i converted to loose my being part of the jewish nation at the moment you converted you officially anounced to the world that you do not consider yourself to be part of the jewish nation so why should the jewish nation consider you to be a member to be a part or not of the jeish nation is defined by my culture and not by my religion actually if i am an atheist which is in fact like converting into a non jewish in terms of religion i am still considered as part of the jewish nation i can be proud of my jewish culture while not giving any importance to the jewish religion or even more i can be proud of my jewish culture while still be convinced that the real god is another one i do not know anyone who lost his memebership to the american nation because he changed of god suppose my father is arab suppose he was born in palestine in some place which now is part of israel suppose that his father and his grandfather as well as or generations before him were born in that place now suppose there is a war of independence and my father scared by all the fighting going on tries to take his family to a place more secure among people he knows who speak a language he understands who worship the same god now suppose that that place is some other arab country and now suppose that the war is over and that there is a new country created where my father used to live and that that country is called israel and that in that country jews from all over the world are received and that people whose family left thet country generation ago are recieved and granted full citizenship should i if i decided to go back to my father s land where he was born as or generations of my family were born have the right to go back and ask to be recognized in the same way those who are returning after years no as a result of wars brought by the arabs against the jews in an attempt to annihilate israel the arabs have lost their claim to land there attacking israel is was illegal and they now have to pay the price do i feel sorry for the palestinians yes i do but i blame the arab nations for their problems not israel i still believe that we should never confusse the actions of states with the individuals who happen to live there in the same way that i do not think it is right to blame all israelis for the human rights violations of israel i do not think that we should assume that all arabs are guilty of the actions of the arab states some people fled their homes because they were scared now they are in there still suffering for what they are not responsible and remember that we also were told the same at some point we ended in the diaspora and of course i am not for doing to others what i did not want done to me adam schwartz adams robotics berkeley edu alberto a pinkas aap wam umd edu ap umail umd edu
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli destruction of mosque s in jerusalem in article eggertj may moses ll mit edu eggertj ll mit edu writes in article c m jg j bony bony com jake bony bony com jake livni writes i am not aware of any such incidents i have asked you to document your accusation i repeat my request nay demand that you either substantiate your accusation or else desist from spewing more baseless eggert blabber and in article c kn fh cbnewsj cb att com avr cbnewsj cb att com adam v reed writes i ve read most of the history books dealing with this period good and bad and while it is possible that i missed one or two none of those i ve read documents any razing of mosques so i think that this remarkable claim requires specific documentation jake disrespectfully demands and adam requires specific documentation of the razing of mosques in jerusalem if either of them had been reading t p m for a while they would already have seen such documentation for the forgetful or newcomers however here are the references well i ve been reading t p m for a while and here is what i saw you write in article eggertj may moses ll mit edu you wrote for balance perhaps you should mention the mosques in jerusalem that were razed after the israeli victory in an eye for an eye i guess your statment clearly tries to balance arab atrocities by noting a single incident by the israelis in war time at their most holy site you even characterize it as an eye for an eye you also wrote that would be false if you read your history you will learn that right after the war the victorious israelis decided to raze a section of the newly captured east jerusalem near the wailing wall it is in this section that mosques were razed so now you have to find some source that notes that more than mosque was razed you then followed it with this episode is an example of a good government running amok with newly acquired power really do you still feel that israelis are comparable in the running amok with power with say the iraqis your eye for an eye comparisons don t match the realities that most of us are familiar with quoting from the west bank story pages on the night of june an israeli officer marched from door to door this happened to be during a war and a fierce and mighty war it was too would you say that the jordanians indiscriminately shot up ancient structures as is their custom in describing bullet holes in the walls of the city this was war it was certainly not any eye for an eye characterstic israelis do not harbor the same feelings of revenge as the arabs generally do this is one of the reasons that the peace now movement exists in israel and nowhere else in the m e jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re more liar s profiles shostack freeman death in article may colorado edu perlman qso colorado edu eric s perlman writes in article c t q lp ucdavis edu szwilso chip ucdavis edu writes that s your opinion of course if we were to take your military budget definition of foreign aid then the foreign aid we send annually to israel is easily multiplied beyond the three to six depending on whose figures you believe million of hard earned u s taxpayer s dollars oh really let s see it costs the us armed forces roughly k in salaries for the average man or woman in uniform normally it takes times the actual salary amount to support a worker thus for the roughly k soldiers currently stationed in germany we get nearly billion dollars more than the annual cost of all aid to israel in personnel not even counting what is spent on local workers and equipment you re just beginning to scratch the surface do you know how much military equipment costs when was the last time you tried to buy a mil spec hammer coffee pot or toilet seat paying israel to do the dirty work on it s own without putting american soldiers s lives on the line is much much much cheaper than uncle sam s arrangements with much of the rest of the world jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli destruction of mosque s in jerusalem in article eggertj may moses ll mit edu eggertj ll mit edu writes in article c rspz d news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux cso uiuc edu edward a shnekendorf writes it is important to note that there remains at least one mosque in the jewish quarter of the old city at least according to my map you might be able to find it just north of the hurva synagogue is this mosque really still there yes it is i have taken photos of it s minaret was this mosque built by squatters too dunno one should compare this treatment with the one given synagogues in the jewish quarter in when it fell under arab dominion of the synagogues were burned down by mobs and the other were razed by the jordanian army i think that in comparison the israelis have done an excellent but certainly not perfect job at maintaining arab mosques this doesn t sound like eye for an eye anymore changed your tune jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re mosque in jewish quarter was re israeli destruction of in article dfs dax dfs doe carleton ca david f skoll writes when i was in jerusalem a couple of years ago our guide told us the story of that mosque not sure if it was true apparently it was built by a jewish convert to islam he had had a dispute with his neighbours and built the mosque davka to annoy them it s a cute story but not sure if it s true if he gives you the same story explaining the presence of several synagogues in the moslem quarter then the story becomes suspect in reality the old city was not as neighborhooded in the past as it became after in pre israel jerusalem there were many jews in what is now called the moslem quarter there are postal and telephone directories from that time to prove it it s really rather interesting to hear arabs there claim that a house or store has been in the family for centuries even when there are clear photos and documents that show a jewish owned business at the same location just a few decades ago jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re israel an apartheid state in article smllm m cville srv wam umd edu aap wam umd edu alberto adolfo pinkas writes in article may pasteur berkeley edu adams bellini berkeley edu adam l schwartz writes which was my point by converting to another religion i do not loose my cultural identity i just loose my religious identification i consider that defining the belonging to a nation that claims the right to have a state based on religious belief is a form of racism to be a part or not of the jeish nation is defined by my culture and not by my religion actually if i am an atheist which is in fact like converting into a non jewish in terms of religion i am still considered as part of the jewish nation i can be proud of my jewish culture while not giving any importance to the jewish religion or even more i can be proud of my jewish culture while still be convinced that the real god is another one i do not know anyone who lost his memebership to the american nation because he changed of god alberto you ve repeatedly misunderstood my postings you are now making the exact point that i ve made several times but with a different definition of religion you don t not have to believe in the religious aspects of judaism to be a jew this would confine judaism to be just a religion in the sense of a christianity so by converting out of judaism i don t mean just not believing in the god of judaism i mean voluntarily removing yourself from the jewish nation i am an agnostic but still consider myself jewish because of my cultural heritage i admit that many religious jews would argue that i am not completely jewish because of my lack of faith but judaism is a religion of dissent and debate isn t it the fact that one can opt to become jewish simply by converting to judaism makes the nation of the jewish people the least racist and most open nation we have no quotas so i will once again make my point defining a member of the jewish nation by religion not as you say religious belief is not racism you come to your incorrect conclusion because you use a different definition for religion when you define the law of return and when you define judaism adam schwartz
talk.politics.mideast	accounts of anti armenian human rights violations in azerbaijan there s no room for christians here and when we finish with the armenians we ll go after the russians deposition of karine borisovna melkumian born teacher boarding school no resident at building b apartment block a sumgait azerbaijan this is my fate i had everything we were a happy family and now at i ve become a widow i m left to raise my three children alone the third not yet two months old was born in yerevan igor and i had thought that if it was a girl we would call her raisa after my mother in law and if it was a boy we d call him arsen after igor s grandfather i had a girl and i without igor named her raisa in honor of her dead grandmother our family and the melkumians had been neighbors since igor and i grew up together we were friends from childhood on we got engaged when i was in when i was we were married two children were born to us in sumgait my daughter is now years old her name is kristina and my son seryozha is four and a half first i shall tell what happened on february that day on my way home from work i passed lenin square where about people had gathered there were komsomol members there and pioneers children s organization and there were both party members and non party people there as well all of them were shouting there s no room for christians here and when we finish with the armenians we ll go after the russians and some even cried out death to the armenians absurd rumors had been circulating about town i became frightened i came home breathless and told about everything i had seen downtown my family couldn t believe it my father in law sogomon markovich melkumian wasn t home he was at an azerbaijani wedding by eight o clock he returned and had barely finished parking the car when his rear window was smashed with a rock he got out of the car but there was no one there well i was telling him everything too and he said what is there no longer any government that same day igor said papa something terrible is happening in the city and he said we ll stay at home no one will drive us from our own home the day passed on february that was sunday we didn t go out we called our relatives and asked them all kinds of questions and they all said the same thing sometime around evening they started smashing the car of an armenian from the neighboring building ira my brother in law s wife and i called the police they re wrecking a car help we called and called and nonetheless they didn t come and they didn t do anything on february on monday even though there were troops in the city we were afraid to go to work i called the school i had the keys to the classroom i told the senior teacher that he should send someone for the keys i wouldn t be coming in he agreed and even said fine don t come in we understand what s going on in town don t come in before that on the th the ambartsumian family came over they came to my father in law and said uncle sergey they broke our windows bad things are happening in town uncle misha ambartsumian even said with my own eyes i saw them chasing naked girls through the streets i don t know he said we should leave town well on the th we were already trying to decide where we should go thinking we d go to our dacha we got a couple of bags together clothes food the bare essentials and then somewhere around the building manager came by and said uncle sergey the situation in town is bad don t go out my father even opened up to him and said maybe we ll drive to the dacha it ll be safer there no he said it ll be worse there you ll be safer at home he said don t be afraid if something happens i ll send people to save you after he left about minutes passed and about people burst into our courtyard all of us were at home at the time igor and i and our two children ira and edik and their daughter my sister in law ira and my mother and father in law and the ambartsumian family there were three of them uncle misha zhasmen and their daughter marina now when they started breaking down the door i remember edik and igor told us go in that room and close the door close the door and calm the children so they won t hear that there s anyone home the children started crying suddenly ira my brother in law s wife suggested let s run out onto the balcony we the two daughters in law and the children and zhasmen and marina raced out onto the balcony my sister in law and my mother in law ran in and said quick over to the other balcony or they ll kill you all we lived on the second floor we needed to cross over from our balcony to our neighbor s at first we couldn t manage it the balcony looked onto the street at that time people were coming home from work and many just stood there watching i pleaded and begged please call someone have someone come i even started shouting i ll throw down the children i ll throw them down you catch them and take them somewhere so at least the children will survive either they were afraid or i don t know what they looked as though they were watching a movie some of them started throwing stones at us i ll say it again these weren t the bandits these were people from the other part of the building and from our entryway they were just regular people passersby a bus even stopped i remember a man s voice saying the armenians were climbing over to the other balcony ira my sister in law helped us get the children over there i was pregnant about seven months pregnant no it wasn t yet seven it was six and a half i climbed over too i think zhasmen went first you know i just don t remember it all that well zhasmen went first i think and edik s wife ira and i had the children and they were all screaming and crying my kristina said mamma don t throw us over the balcony we re afraid lilia was crying and kristina and seryozha were crying too kristina didn t even want to climb over she shouted i m staying with grandmother i m staying with grandma she loved her grandma more than she loved me and my mother in law shouted oh no kristina s still there she s still there save kristina too ira helped us climb over with kristina coming last ira helped us and went back inside we started pounding on the neighbor s balcony door i pounded with my fist sevil open the door open it please she didn t open it no go away go anywhere go i m not opening the door she was our neighbor we were friends we never refused her anything ever and apparently she thought we were going to break the windows and she opened the door she opened it and said karina karina go away go anywhere just don t stay here they ll kill us too because of you i begged please at least take the children we ll leave we ll go back no she said you have to leave her sons ran in one had a knife sevil s brother he s around shouted at us get out of here leave i ll kill you with this knife i became terrified i took the children and went out in the entryway and went down a few stairs i went down and heard a loudspeaker it was in the courtyard the armenians must be killed they ve taken all the best places all the best apartments one of them said let the armenian blood flow none of them should survive when i heard that i went upstairs and started knocking on doors no one opened their door for me not on the third floor or the fourth i couldn t see zhasmen any longer ira came upstairs later i even thought that they had let her stay that they would save her my head was spinning they were killing my family and here i was in the next entryway with two children seryozha was four and kristina was five and a half they were crying mamma we re scared they were so frightened that i didn t even know how to calm them should i try to calm them or myself it was awful but on the third floor a man did open his door i asked open up let me inside he opened the door slightly and said no no and that was it he said it so sternly no i went up to the fifth floor i pounded my fists on the door with all my might he opened up the man of the house and stood there looking at me i was ready to get down on my knees i almost did get down on my knees please i beg of you at least take the children he wasn t an azerbaijani he was a lezgin i don t even know how but he let me inside and when i went in zhasmen was already there two minutes hadn t passed when ira and lilia came up the stairs lilia was crying he didn t want to open the door and again i started pleading please open the door it s our ira and lilia open the door and he said no i m afraid i said again and again please open the door please he looked at me he looked at me for a long time and then opened the door after all ira came in with lilia we threw ourselves into each other s arms crying then the man locked us into the bathroom we sat there for a long time through the door he told us calm the children and calm yourselves down too calm down this man was hiding us but what of our family when i was still in our apartment i had sensed that none of us would come out of this alive i said igor edik let s say farewell and edik turned around and looked at me as if to say is that some kind of joke all the same i thought they would kill all of us igor looked at me too but it was already too late they started pounding on the door igor was standing next to the door before that he had told us go lock yourselves in that room and sit tight he thought we were in the room but before we went out onto the balcony we went to them edik igor let s say farewell igor didn t think we could climb over to the other balcony and we did get over there and i myself can t believe we were able to save ourselves igor put on a helmet and edik had his coat on and he put on a fur hat all the men igor edik their father and misha ambartsumian they all stood next to the door they thought they would pound on it a while and leave but from the other side of the door they ordered in azerbaijani open the door we were all silent waiting someone outside the door said they re home they re in there break down the door and i remember my father in law whispering they re going to break it down now it s coming down now he had something in his hands i think it was a knife if they got in we were going to defend ourselves in the hall near the door there were two metal chair legs from outside the door they said we re counting to five open up but we were all quiet we didn t answer them we made like no one was home we figured they d leave they d get tired and leave my father in law had said it s not possible they d come into my home how can that be everyone knows us all of sumgait knows our family we are on good terms with everyone and indeed a day did not pass that there wasn t an azerbaijani guest at our table we had a nice dacha everyone would get together there often azerbaijanis liked being with us there too but now we had to save ourselves we had to flee from our own home ira i remember said i m not leaving here my brothers and my parents are here i m going to fight alongside them that s just what she said she picked up a knife and said if they open the door and come into the apartment then i m going to fight alongside my family i m not going anywhere we were at sevil s when they broke into our apartment we heard fighting and shouting the noise was terrible and when we hid upstairs on the fifth floor at the lezgin s apartment you could hear everything up there too even ira s voice i remember her calling her mother several times she called her for a long time i started pounding on the door in the bathroom open the door what are they doing to ira who s shouting that s ira shouting that s her voice but the lezgin said it s nothing calm down no it s not in your apartment he was lying to me so i d calm down two hours went by and the lezgin opened the door and said karina igor got away calm down he ran away he saw igor break away and run off with his own eyes they killed him outside next to the building while we were in the bathroom i experienced every possible human terror the way ira shouted she shouted save me mamma save me mamma mamma she repeated it several times there was a wild din there were very many people there all of them shouting all of them bellowing howling whistling you just can t imagine what was going on what the roar was like apparently after they had killed ira those murderers came into the entryway where we were hiding and came upstairs all the way up to the fifth floor i don t know if they were just looking for any armenians or for us in particular but i think they were looking for us because when we had climbed over the balconies someone on the street was saying that the daughters in law were climbing over the balconies and after we heard ira we heard them coming up the stairs in the entryway and hammering on the doors i thought those were our last moments and started saying good bye to my children kissing them they were sleeping i woke them up kristina seryozha wake up and i tell ira ira if something happens we ll throw ourselves off the balcony we were on the fifth floor apparently our lezgin neighbor had opened the door too because later he said i opened the door and told them there were no armenians inside and after they all left our neighbor went out on the balcony himself to see they were gone we weren t friends with those lezgin neighbors we only knew each other from the building but the people we were friends with wouldn t even consider hiding us the lezgin let us out of the bathroom they had a candle burning he said karina there re no lights on in our block the whole block was dark the whole block it s a huge block too the lezgin said i m afraid to keep you until morning i m afraid of the neighbors they might kill me for saving you i said what are you saying we ll leave now but we can t just leave with the children in the middle of the night give us time to find somewhere else to hide he said well ok go look i asked ira ira do you want to go ira said no i ll stay with the children karina i said fine then i ll go zhasmen and i went downstairs together it was very dark no one was in the courtyard it was dark pitch black l was afraid to go out at after seven igor always met me after work and accompanied me home i never went out alone and now here i was out in the middle of the night and after a slaughter like that too it was probably after eleven later i called the boarding school and my director answered he said karina where are you i didn t know i was calling from a public phone outside and didn t know where i was i got confused and hung up the receiver from him i only found out what time it was i asked him what time is it he said i think but i don t really remember so anyway zhasmen and i went out into the courtyard i look and see what appears to be a person not far from our apartment and there was the smell of something burnt i became horrified i looked at the corpse for a long time it was either ira or edik i only saw one of them zhasmen grabbed my hand and squeezed it hurry up let s go hurry up come on what are you turning around for i turned around and saw a large truck it must have belonged to the bandits because they came to kill us in a truck like that we lived in the third entryway and that truck was next to the fourth we walked quickly holding hands i thought if i go to the police then they ll put me away i couldn t count on them before i reached the police station i saw a military vehicle we went over and i said soldier in block i don t know if they ve killed people or injured them we need to save them and he said go to the police station and tell them everything i said i m afraid to go there i m afraid of them he said don t be afraid we went to the police and they wrote down the address and the military vehicle went to our building i didn t go with them they left me at the police station i gave the addresses of my mother and my brothers so that they d rescue them too i didn t know where they were or what had happened to them after a while they brought my children and ira and lilia first they took us to the kgb that was at two or three in the morning then around five they took us to the city party committee and there were very many people there very many i was pregnant and was wearing nothing but a dress seryozha was only wearing a shirt and kristina had a little dress on no coat no boots nothing and we sat there for three whole days in the city party committee the lezgin had told me that igor escaped and i thought that he was probably alive but then after two and a half days they took us the armenians of sumgait to nasosny on march some people from the central committee came and told us karina ira we need you come with us to the city party committee my mamma had come to nasosny and she had been looking for me for six days mama my brothers and my uncle we went to the city party committee and waited there in the courtyard i was wearing nothing but a dress and ira had only a dress on as well there was a strong wind on march an hour went by and then one of the functionaries told us karina ira gather your courage would you like to go to the burial i said what did they really kill all of them he said let s look he had a long list and he started reading them off igor melkumian my husband eduard melkumian my brother in law irina melkumian my sister in law sogomon melkumian my father in law and raisa melkumian my mother in law he read off all their names and said get in the car let s go to the burial we buried our family i couldn t believe it at the time i couldn t conceive of it or imagine it and even now i think how shall i explain it to my children when they re older my children were very attached to their father and their grandfather and grandmother kristina didn t love me the way she loved her grandfather and grandmother they spoiled her kristina would always announce my grandma is better than anyone now even though she is getting used to my mother it s difficult for her and once she told her you re a bad grandmother i don t know why i asked her kristina where s papa and she said they killed him she knows she understands it all and recently i scolded seryozha severely for something and he started shouting at me when papa comes i m going to tell him everything july nairi boarding house near the village of arzakan hrazdan district armenian ssr reference the sumgait tragedy pogroms against armenians in soviet azerbaijan volume i eyewitness accounts edited by samuel shahmuradian forward by yelena bonner published by aristide d caratzas ny page david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia has not learned a lesson in s d p a center for regional studies anatolia and has forgotten the p o box punishment inflicted on it cambridge ma late turkish president turgut ozal
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli destruction of mosque s in jerusalem in bec a news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock wrote in article eggertj may moses ll mit edu eggertj ll mit edu writes in article c m jg j bony bony com jake bony bony com jake livni writes i am not aware of any such incidents and in article c kn fh cbnewsj cb att com avr cbnewsj cb att com adam v reed writes i ve read most of the history books dealing with this period good and bad and while it is possible that i missed one or two none of those i ve read documents any razing of mosques so i think that this remarkable claim requires specific documentation for the forgetful newcomers here are the references the reference i based my posting on originally is the book the west bank story by rafik halabi new york harcourt brace jovanovich original title die westbank story quoting from the west bank story pages on the night of june an israeli officer marched from door to door through the moghrabi quarter of east jerusalem giving the residents three hours notice to evacuate their homes the participants in a july meeting of a group of arab relgious and political figures protested the immodest dress of israelis visiting the mosques and the destruction of two mosques in the moghrabi quarter adjacent to the western wall this issue has been going on for a while and your presentation here of just one reference probably won t resolve this issue to those that oppose your insistence that mosques were destroyed even in your location of this one reference you spend most of your quote dealing with an incidence that while abhorrant has nothing to do with the issue at hand here then at the end of the quote there is an almost off hand comment that two mosques were destroyed tim you re missing the big sleight of hand here i can accept every word quoted from halabi and still have zero evidence of any mosques being razed note that what halabi refers to is not that mosques were razed but that people protested alleged razing too well we know that this is a common demagogic tactic or has anyone forgotten the temple mount riots when the moslem crowd was led to believe that the israeli guards were there to cover for the tmf instead of stop them d c sessions speaking for myself note new network address dcs witsend tnet com author and everything else of tmail dos mail news shell
talk.politics.mideast	please show up in washington dc for bosnia may th i appeal to to all of you to show up in washington dc this saturday to participate in a peaceful demonstration for the sake of humanity this is a critical point in the history of world and we can make a change otherwise things will not change there in bosnia rapes killings ethnic cleansing will go on as a norm in the days to follow the un will get to the towns after the fall of thousands of inocent civilians like in zapa just the past weekend it happened to the jews in s it s happening to the muslims today and who will be the next victim since the europeans want to remain indifferent in this issue time has come for us to take a leadership role to stop these crimes against humanity time is now and this is for real folks the people of new england bosnian relief committee seriously believe that clinton s adminstration will stop supporting the bosnian cause without sustained public pressure i just called democaratic sen john kerry s office and they are saying that he the senator is waiting for president to take a decision means that he will wait and join the band wagon later if it ever moves please don t rely on others to take part in this demonstration you as an individual will make a big difference bring your families too not only you will help a great cause but also it will be fun for all i know of several families from massachusetts who are travelling friday night to participate there contact the local islamic center or bosnia relief agency if you want to travel by pre arranged busses the best option for students is to rent a car and car pool please spread the word around regards khalid chishti if you live in massachusetts and want more info call ginan from new england bosnian relief committee or new england bosnian relief committee phone no disclaimer these are my opinions only and has nothing to do with my employer
talk.politics.mideast	re m e peace talks organization st elizabeth hospital youngstown oh lines nntp posting host yfn ysu edu dzk cs brown edu danny keren writes our little goebbels to those who forgot is talking about an alleged infection of fine egyptian men by a mossad agent caught spying with her father in egypt as noted before the women is a muslim israeli she was not a spy and she didn t infect anybody the jewish version of the story a muslim israeli i thought it is a jewish state hasn t it yet been defined up to this point this is a post from a hospital the inmates from foam the cushion ward have net access take a pill pal richard thorne rdt med pitt edu
talk.politics.mideast	re israel an apartheid state i think there are some generally accepted criteria according to which one can evaluate whether certain policies or practices constitute racial discrimination these criteria are to be found for example in the international convention for abolition of all forms of racial discrimination ratified by most countries the international covenant of political and civil rights the human rights charter the european convention of human rights if one reads carefully how racial discrimination is defined in these legally binding instruments and does not resort to sophistry it is obvious that the state of israel is guilty of racial discrimination the people suffering the most extreme form of racial discriminatnion by the zionist regime are the palestinian refugees some of whom live under israeli military control and others who live in the diaspora they are not entitled to return to their homeland for the sole reason that they are not jews international law does not include any provisions which permits such denial of rights under any circumstance israel s actions of denial are totally illegal and immoral by allowing the return of the refugees and permitting them to settle in tel in any area of the state of israel the state would finally gain its legitimaty under international law and could be justified in asking to be recognized it would facilitate the peaceful integration of israel into the middle east and constitute the best guarantee for permanent jewish presence in the area any attempt to create a separation formal and human between the israeli jewish and palestinian arab communities is fraught with genociadal implications i hope that u s jews who sincerely wish that peace prevail in israel palestine will finally realize this fact elias davidsson ps please read carefully the first post in this topic where the facts of zionist racial discrimination are described
talk.politics.mideast	zionist leaders frank statements from center for policy research cpr subject zionist leaders frank statements the following are quotations from zionist leaders they appear in numerous scholarly works dealing with the palestine question i urge those who have access to original sources to verify the authenticity of the source and post here their finding adhering to the truth whatever it be thanks elias davidsson quotations from zionist leaders there was no such thing as palestinians golda meir prime minister of israel london sunday times june there is however a difficulty from which the zionist dares not avert his eyes though he rarely likes to face it palestine proper has already its inhabitants israel zangwill the voice of jerusalem london p when we have settled the land all the arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle raphael eitan israeli chief of staff new york times april the palestinians are beasts walking on two legs menachem begin prime minister of israel in a speech to the knesset quoted in amnon kapeliouk begin and the beasts new statesman june both the process of expropriation of the palestinians and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly dr theodor herzl the complete diaries herzl press i p between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both people together in this country the only solution is a palestine without arabs and there is no other way than to transfer the arabs from here to the neighboring countries to transfer all of them not one village not one tribe should be left joseph weitz jewish national fund administrator responsible for zionist colonization davar september we shall try to spirit the penniless population the palestinians across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries while denying it any employment in our own country theodor herzl the complete diaries herzl press i p zionists looked for means to cause the tens of thousands of sulky arabs who remained in the galilee to flee i gathered all the jewish muktars who have contact with arabs in different villages and asked them to whisper in the ears of some arabs that a great jewish reinforcement has arrived in galilee and that it is going to burn all of the villages of the huleh they should suggest to these arabs as their friends to escape while there is still time the tactic reached its goal wide areas were cleaned yig al alon sepher ha palmach in hebrew ii p quoted in khalidi from haven to conquest ips jews must expel arabs and take their place david ben gurion quoted in shabtai teveth ben gurion and the palestine arabs oxford university press p we must do everything to ensure they the palestinian refugees never do return david ben gurion in his diary july quoted in michael bar zohar ben gurion the armed prophet prentice hall p the country was mostly an empty desert with only a few islands of arab settlement shimon peres minister of defense quoted in david s sling the arming of israel weidenfeld and nicholson p all this story about the danger of extermination of jews has been blown up to justify the annexation of new arab territories mordechai bentov israeli cabinet minister al hamishmar april neither jewish ethics nor jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat yitzhak shamir hehazit summer journal of the lehi the stern gang translated from the israeli daily al hamishmar december the domination of jewish agriculture by arab workers is a cancer in our body a uzan israeli minister of agriculture ha aretz december there can be only one national home in palestine and that a jewish one and no equality in the partnership between jews and arabs montague david eder president of the zionist federation of great britain in doreen ingrams comp palestine papers seeds of conflict george braziller p i hope that the jewish frontiers of palestine will be as great as jewish energy for getting palestine dr chaim weizmann first president of the state of israel excerpts from his historic statements writings and addresses jewish agency for palestine p there is not a single jewish village in this country that has not been built on the site of an arab village moshe dayan ha aretz april some people talk of expelling to arabs in the event of a new war and instruments have been prepared aharon yariv former chief of israeli military intelligence inquiry december if i was an arab leader i would never make peace with israel that is natural we have taken their country david ben gurion in nahum goldmann the jewish paradox weidenfeld and nicolson p we should there in palestine form a portion of the rampart of europe against asia an outpost of civilization as opposed to barbarism dr theodor herzl the jewish state london p i deeply believe in launching preventive war against the arab states without further hesitation by doing so we will achieve two targets firstly the annihilation of arab power and secondly the expansion of our territory menachem begin in a speech to the knesset october during the last years our people have been in a process of building up the country and the nation of expansion of getting additional jews and additional settlements in order to expand the borders here let no jew say that the process has ended let no jew say that we are near the end of the road moshe dayan ma ariv july until the british left no jewish settlement however remote was entered or seized by the arabs while the haganah under severe and frequent attack captured many arab positions and liberated tiberias and haifa jaffa and safad david ben gurion rebirth and destiny of israel philosophical library p in the months preceding the arab invasion of and while the five arab states were conducting preparations we continued to make sallies into arab territory the conquest of jaffa stands out as an event of first rate importance in the struggle for hebrew independence early in may on the eve of the invasion by the five arab states menachem begin the revolt nash p what the french could do in tunisia i said the jews would be able to do in palestine with jewish will jewish money jewish power and jewish enthusiasm dr chaim weizmann first president of the state of israel trial and error harper p i do not think nasser wanted war the two divisions he sent to the sinai on may would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive against israel he knew it and we knew it yitzhak rabin le monde february to pretend that the egyptian forces massed on our frontiers in were in position to threaten the existence of israel constitutes an insult not only to the intelligence of anyone capable of analyzing this sort of situation but above all an insult to the zahal israeli army general res matti peled ha aretz march when we have broken the strength of the arab legion and bombarded amman we would wipe out transjordan after that syria would fall we would thus end the war and would have put paid to egypt assyria and chaldea on behalf of our ancestors david ben gurion in his diaries quoted in michael bar zohar the armed prophet a biography of ben gurion prentice hall p these jews of the diaspora would like to see us for their own reasons heroes with our backs to the wall but this wish can in no way change the realities israeli general ezer weizmann le monde june let us not today fling accusations at the palestinian arab murderers who are we that we should argue against their hatred for eight years now they sit in their refugee camps in gaza and before their very eyes we turn into our homestead the land and the villages in which they and their forefathers have lived we are a generation of settlers and without the steel helmet and the cannon we cannot plant a tree and build a home let us not shrink back when we see the hatred fermenting and filling the lives of hundreds of thousands of arabs who sit all around us let us not avert our gaze so that our hand shall not slip this is the fate of our generation the choice of our life to be prepared and armed strong and tough or otherwise the sword will slip from our first and our life will be snuffed out moshe dayan eulogy of roy rutenberg at kibbutz nahal oz quoted in uri avneri israel without zionists collier books macmillan new york p
talk.politics.mideast	labour s enclaves policy important from center for policy research cpr subject labour s enclaves policy important labour s enclaves policy in the occupied territories by israel shahak publ in middle east international london it is not difficult to discover israel s policy towards the palestinians at any given time it can be easily inferred from the facts on the ground and from the information provided by the hebrew press there is one condition though the torrents of claptrap about the peace process must be totally ignored as must israel s official pronouncements whole sole purpose is to distort reality by concentrating only on the facts it was early apparent that labour s policies were no different from those of shamir but for their greater reliance on deceit and their more effective implementation likud s policies were accurately described by ariel sharon in an article accompanied by a map in yediot aharonot last august the sharon plan envisaged a division of the west bank into seven and the gaza strip into four autonomous palestinian enclaves all of them under israeli supervision the total area of these enclaves amounted to about per cent of the territories the rest was to be controlled by the israeli settlements and the highways built around the enclaves the entire area around jerusalem from the outskirts of ramallah to the boundaries of bethlehem has already been turned into a greater jerusalem where the arab inhabited localities amount to small enclaves surrounded by areas occupied by israeli settlements or reserved for them judging from labour s settlement policy it may be assumed that it may content itself with a lesser number of arab enclaves of a rather larger size than sharon had planned but the principle of surrounding the enclaves by settlements strategically dispersed along the highways remains unchanged labour plans only four enclaves in the west bank two in samaria and two in judea i e north and south of jerusalem respectively and no more than two in the gaza strip in regard to greater jerusalem labour s policies hardly deviate from sharon s a saner version of likud policy as some israeli correspondents at once realised labour policies were but a saner version of sharon s extravaganza last july gideon eshet wrote in yediot aharonot that while barely a few months ago labour supported the demand to freeze all construction beyond the green line no specific decision to freeze construction in the territories has been taken and uzi benziman wrote in ha aretz that as far as can be judged on the basis of the internal political discussions in jerusalem rabin intends to stick to likud s ways the two biggest enclaves envisaged by labour are located in samaria therefore the belt of settlements around the trans samaria highway designed to separate those enclaves from each other is of paramount importance according to the latest data the percentage of israeli settlers in the entire west bank population apart from east jerusalem is a mere per cent but for the area around the trans samaria highway the corresponding figure is almost per cent and it is increasing steadily the situation in the settlements of the efrat block south of jerusalem designed to sever the enclave around bethlehem from the one around hebron is pretty much the same the efrat block is now being connected with west jerusalem by a highway the project is costly in the extreme because the highway is designed to bypass bethlehem by a sequence of long tunnels the final decision to build this highway was suspended until rabin s return from his us visit in march the subsequent decision to renew its construction can be seen as us approval for the enclaves plan as a whole process of impoverishment the enclaves plan implies deliberate and steady impoverishment of the palestinians this is well known in israel but ignored abroad by all who should be concerned including the plo in regard to the gaza strip the whole process was best described by ze ev shiff in ha aretz in march he mentions having seen a pamphlet issued six years ago by the civil administration forecasting the conditions in the gaza strip under israeli rule in his analysis deserves to be quoted extensively we continue to steal the strip s water even though its quality deteriorates from year to year we continue to steal the strip s tiny land resources in order to found there more and more settlements as if we deliberately want to make the inhabitants despair and in their despair think in termws of having nothing to lose it is by our own doing that the strip s workers must now spend travelling to their workplaces almost as much time as they spend working from the military point of view we have kept control of no more than half the strip s area at an increasingly exorbitant price in manpower and resources about a year before moshe arens left the defence ministry i heard him saying that we should withdraw from the strip come what may his argument was that israel sinks into the strip ever deeper and deeper he told me he had proposed this to yitzhak shamir but he rejected it yitzhak rabin rejects it too enormous state support for the qatif block settlers can also be cited as proof that the enclaves plan is being implemented the qatif block settlements founded by the first rabin government of are intended to divide the gaza strip into two separate enclaves efraim davidi of davar had data showing how vital for israeli this enterprise is the qatif block is now producing per cent of israeli tomatoes destined for export and a substantial proportion of cut flowers he also deals with the subsidies the settlers receive considerably augmented by the present government owing to them housing units are cheap the present government does not spare efforts to recruit new settlers to the block any prospective settler will get a per cent mortgage for his house on top of a grant of shekels such data shows that israel s plans apply whether the palestinians of the gaza strip are allowed or forbidden to work in israel the economic motivations were explained by danny rubinstein in ha aretz in march from the economic viewpoint gaza could already be sealed off hermetically and all the strip s workers could be barred from entering israel even though accurate data is hard to come by it is indisputable that during the last two years the numbes of gazan workers arriving daily to work in israel has markedly decreased from in the mid s to today but the decrease is not only due to restrictions imposed on entering israel from gaza it is also due to the drastic curtailment of demand for gazan labour in israel with unemployment in israel soaring and the construction of apartments blocks virtually halted the workers from gaza are no longer really needed gaza s total dependence the entire economy of the gaza strip is totally dependent on israel in recent years in the gaza strip there has been an increase in sub contracted work for israeli factories mostly footware and textiles thousands of small workshops employing an average of four workers get their raw materials or unfinished products together with detailed working instructions from israeli factories rubinstein attributes this development to the fact that the average wage in the gaza strip is merely per cent of that in the west bank which in turn stands at half the average wage in israel and besides the gazan employer does not pay any social security for his employees if the average wage in the gaza strip is just a fifth of that in israel the profits of israeli factories and even of palestinian sub contractors must be vast they are higher still when a gazan sub contractor provides labour to be performed at home with the family s help the livelihood of tens of thousands of gazans depends on such sub contracted work many of them are women and children paid about ten shekels a day which can last hours or more there can be no doubt that profits from exploiting cheap gazan labour are one of the reasons for the stubborn opposition of rabin and other israeli ministers to withdrawal from the strip economic conditions in the gaza strip differ little from what was created straight after israel s conquest in in this respect one should not be deluded by the talk nowadays fashionable about israeli gestures intended to encourage economic development in the territories as israeli journalists point out all permits for opening new businesses depend on a prior approval by the shin bet behind all the professed goodwill there is no desire to solve problems just the attitude of a good colonialist willing to do something for the benefit of the natives but on condition that they behave nicely do not become rebellious and never do anything against the interests of the metropolis its economic interests included wrote michal sela in davar in february the development of sub contracted work in the gaza strip accords perfectly with sela s diagnosis sela also shows how exactly the economic controls work in all branches of the economy lobbies have been set in motion for purposes of freeing israeli production from the threat of any palestinian competition the method is simplicity itself as soon as any israeli producer succeeds in persuading the government or even the trade and industry minister alone a military order is issued prohibiting the export of a given produce to israel if this does not suffice a palestinian factory may be denied a licence to operate or bureaucratic obstacles may paralyse its production among the most active of such lobbies is the agricultural one it has succeeded in limiting exports of gazan vegetables except for those grown by settlers not only to israel but also to europe where they otherwise might compete with israeli exports perpetuaring apartheid labour s goal is to perpetuate this apartheid regime in the territories the same goal is shared by the us which otherwise could not support the labour government so firmly in my view one of the reasons the us feels happier about supporting labour than likud is its greater efficiency in pursuing the settlement drive this point was brought home by ofer shelah in ma ariv who deplored the settlers failure which he attributed to likud s inefficiency he showed that the peak yearly settlement growth occured during the term of office of the national unity government i e in which rabin served throughout as the defence minister likud s reputation for settling the territories better than labour is false attributable to the many tiny settlements without strategic value founded under shamir for symbolic reasons to sum up labour s policy unconditionally supported by the us differs from that of likud primarily in the efficiency with which it is implemented according to that policy the territories are to be divided into two parts the major part is to be ruled by israel directly and the minor part indirectly in my view this racist scheme is doomed to ultimately fail but at a horrifying price in human suffering the sooner its true nature is recognised the less suffering it may cause
talk.politics.mideast	zionists reject non jews news from center for policy research cpr subject zionists reject non jews news ethiopian jews and not quite jews the israeli press has published items about ethiopian jews waiting in camps in addis ababa for immigration to israel who are dying of starvation the following are excerpts from an interview with the former general director of the jdc project for development and welfare of ethiopian jews kobi friedman hadashot april who has stated that there are people dying in addis ababa but they are converts to christianity hadashor published the item about the dying jews after viewing a video tape filmed last week in adis ababa how do you know that they are actually converts to chritianity if there are jews on the tape then i don t know what to say i am speaking from experience when i say that those who remained in ethiopia are christians i know that there have previously been things published in the press by interesting parties and there is no connection between them and reality what interested parties ethiopian immigrants who want their christian relatives to come here what to you recommend that ethiopian children in israel do when their parents and the rest of their relatives remain in ethiopia i ask if it is the job of the state of israel to bring in the relatives who stayed in ethiopia well my answer is that it is not it would be a better solution economically as well for that young man to buy a one way ticket to ethiopia and reunite with his family there publ by the other front alternative information center jerusalem israel april
talk.politics.mideast	re news that i missed in article may ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes in article optima cs arizona edu bakken cs arizona edu dave bakken writes in article c mm a kb bony bony com jake bony bony com jake livni writes in the ny times on sunday may in an article on somalia a reporter writes but last year iran quietly took over four islands belonging to the united arab emirates and deported their people with hardly a protest from the united states does anyone know what this is referring to i seem to have missed it spiked no doubt there was something in the nyt and other sources about this for a few days it is an ongoing border disupute and when the iranians kicked out the uae people it was briefly reported this was many moons ago i don t recall reading of any public us comment if it were a strong protest i probably would have seen it those islands would be abu musa and the greater and lesser tunbs i presume i don t know about a fourth the latter two islands belong to iran and so according to the ny times the islands belong to the united arab emirates could not be taken over the major row is over abu musa which has been jointly administered by iran and uae the dispute goes back to the early s when britain evacuated the island and iran under the shah reclaimed the island which had historical ties to iran no british objection was raised at that time it is my understanding that uae residents of abu musa are currently free to travel to and from the island and that iran is desiring diplomatic resolution of the dispute why is it then that when the british iranians and uae refer to occupied territory they mean territory in dispute in israel but not in their own affairs jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli destruction of mosque s in jerusalem in article c tqat gxp cbnewsj cb att com avr cbnewsj cb att com adam v reed writes allegations of jewish disrespect for the objects and buildings of other religions are one of antisemitic stereotypes that permeate western culture and rumors of church and host desacration probably caused more pogroms than blood libel about years ago there was a lot of noise about a church in the old city of jerusalem being taken over by a jewish group in fact the building in question was a dormitory that belonged to a church and was not physically connected to any church it had been leased to a palestinean arab for years and a jewish group sub leased it from him the church that owned the building disapproved and legal action was started to revoke the sub lease the media however made it look like jewish vigilantes were stealing church property in jerusalem by force the stereotypes that pervade our culture create cognitive illusions that reify those stereotypes therefore any claim that appears to reify a stereotype should be treated by decent people with utmost suspicion until and unless documented the damage has already been done by the press in the above case it is not surprising by now of course that many decent people regard the press with utmost suspicion if such a claim is cross posted to a news group in which it has not been documented before such as s c j a reference should be given the first time it appears now that the claim has been documented i regard the whole episode as disgusting and shameful especially so because the official who failed to provide proper temporary facilities for the evicted jordanians was probably jewish and as a jew i know that he should have known better you appear to be referring to moshe dayan how do you know that the evicted jordanians were not provided with something else in fact this thread indicates that they were squatters on land that they did not own but received compensation for their loss anyways woe to jews when they feel that recovering land that has been taken from them by force with ethnic cleansing of any remaining jews is disgusting and shameful jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	arrest of fugitive in adl case los angeles times saturday may page a figure in adl spy case arrested at s f airport espionage former police officer is taken into custody upon arriving from philippines where he had fled after fbi interrogation by jenifer warren times staff writer san francisco a former san francisco police officer who fled to the philippines amid accusations that he funneled confidential law enforcement information to an investigator for the anti defamation league was arrested at the airport here on felony charges police said friday thomas j gerard who abruptly left the united states in october after the fbi questioned him about his activities was apprehended thursday night after a source in the philippines told investigators that gerard was returning home gerard was booked into san francisco county jail early friday morning on eight counts of theft of government documents and one count each of computer theft burglary and conspiracy if convicted on all charges gerard could face years in prison and in fines bail was initially set at after police argued that he was a flight risk but it was later reduced to a friend of gerard was trying to post bail late friday afternoon a sheriff s spokeswoman said gerard returned to the united because he missed his wife and child with whom he lived on a houseboat in sausalito and wanted to have his day in court said police capt john willett his former boss and one of two arresting officers gerard an undercover agent for the central intelligence agency from to also feared that the cia was out to kill him willett said in an interview with the times last month gerard threatened to disclose illegal cia support of death squads in central america if he was indicted and tried on the san francisco spying charges gerard is a central figure in a scandal over an intelligence network operated by the anti defamation league a prominent jewish civil rights organization investigators allege that gerard illegally gave criminal histories to roy bullock a san francisco art dealer who said he has been an undercover adl intelligence operative for years investigators said they found confidential police files in bullock s home computer which contained entries on people and groups and in boxes in his apartment files have also been seized under search warrants from adl offices in san francisco and los angeles but authorities have not disclosed their contents gerard could not be reached for comment friday and his attorney james lassart did not return telephone calls seeking comment in the interview with the times last month however gerard acknowledged snooping and sharing some information with bullock but denied any criminal wrongdoing bullock and gerard also are under investigation for selling intelligence to south africa adl officials have described bullock as a a week independent contractor and have vigorously denied knowledge of any illegal activity on friday adl lawyer jerrold ladar said gerard s arrest has nothing to do with adl other than that we have no comment on the case arab american groups which were a main target of the spying according to police applauded the arrest and pressed authorities to pursue the investigation we urge investigators to carry this case forward and to publicly disclose the full extent of adl and law enforcement involvement said james zogby head of the arab american institute in washington police meanwhile characterized gerard s arrest the first in the inquiry into the spying scandal as an unexpected breakthrough a former police colleague of gerard inspector fred mollat visited gerard several weeks ago and urged him to return home i knew he wouldn t want to live on an island on the lam forever but we didn t think it would happen this quickly capt willett said this development really speeds up our timetable on the case during his year career on the police force gerard was a highly regarded officer known for his work in the department s intelligence division his last assignment was on the gang task force after fbi agents questioned gerard last fall he took early retirement and fled to the remote jungle island of palawan miles south of manila gerard was arrested at p m as he stepped from his philippines airlines flight he was traveling alone and looked tanned but haggard after his six month hiatus police said he was surprised when he saw us standing there and got a shocked look on his face willett said then he said hello i m back yigal arens usc isi tv made me do it arens isi edu
talk.politics.mideast	lying about torture yedi ot ahronot april excerpt each one and his own nevo a reference to general azri el nevo shamir s military secretary irrelevant to this excerpt by nahum barne a in mid shabak found itself in the center of another storm a year and a half earlier khaled sheikh ali a member of the islamic jihad died at the shabak installation in gaza prison the two shabak interrogators who were responsible for his death were put on trial in september the supreme court rejected their appeal and sentenced them to months in prison as far as is known this was the first time in israel s history that shabak operatives were sent to prison the supreme court unanimously rejected the warning by the director of shabak that the sentence will be detrimental the effectiveness of other interrogators the judges in the case were barak goldberg and matza when they realized that they were on their own the interrogators agreed to talk deputy state attorney rachel sukkar sp was placed in charge of investigating the affair she questioned the directors of all shabak divisions she investigated only the matter of the death in gaza prison she discovered that not only torture but also the culture of lies which judge landau had described in his report of two years before were still very much in existence nothing had changed the report was classified and was seen by only some ten people among them the prime minister the people at the top of the judicial system and judge landau the director of shabak claimed that he did not know after all they were dealing only with a single jail and with low ranking people the system bit the bullet and accepted the explanation one of shabak s high ranking officials was transfered from his very high position to a less high position the culture of lies referred to above is the shabak interrogators policy of lying in court when denying detainees claims that they were tortured in the course of interrogation the landau commission sought to correct this problem by legalizing a list of torture methods thus eliminating the fear that a detainee might be released if those methods were used to extract a confession the fact that the need to lie still persists would seem to indicate that shabak is not sticking to the approved torture methods yigal yigal arens usc isi tv made me do it arens isi edu
talk.politics.mideast	re israel an apartheid state in article smllm m cville srv wam umd edu aap wam umd edu alberto adolfo pinkas writes in article may pasteur berkeley edu adams bellini berkeley edu adam l schwartz writes in article smbma mr cville srv wam umd edu aap wam umd edu alberto adolfo pinkas writes i m not sure about this but i hope the answer is that you can t apply under the law of return by conversion you ve elected not to be a part of the jewish nation which was my point by converting to another religion i do not loose my cultural identity i just loose my religious identification i disagree by converting to another religion you certainly do change your cultural identity and lose that part of you which was jewish at the moment you converted you officially anounced to the world that you do not consider yourself to be part of the jewish nation so why should the jewish nation consider you to be a member to be a part or not of the jeish nation is defined by my culture and not by my religion actually if i am an atheist which is in fact like converting into a non jewish in terms of religion i am still considered as part of the jewish nation no there is a serious cultural and religios difference between renouncing the jewish god and accepting a new one thou shall have no other gods before me conversion is a violation of this atheism you might be able to wiggle around with adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
talk.politics.mideast	re israel an apartheid state not quite in article se ninnfo early bird think com shaig think com shai guday writes in article spam maths adelaide edu au jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au joseph askew writes there are arabs in cabinet but look how long it took and to what insignificant positions they are assigned and this is based solely on race not political belief or security as jewish members of the same party have always been welcome just not their fellow arabs first of all the arab standing in any party or as any party is solely dependent upon the amount of political power they can wield effectively it is not a question of an individuals standing when a party puts up an arab for a cabinet post and that arab is rejected but the position is given to a jew from the same party we are not talking about power but racism would you care to deny this has happened on several occasions with labour coalitions in the past they have not been effective at garnering votes and forming a single bloc in the knesset on the few occasions when this was done some of the parties took stands that were extremist and ineffect precluded themselves from forming a coalition and participating in the cabinet not their party them as individuals even when they belong to nice peaceful zionist mainstream parties they are not welcome arabs are excluded on ficitious security grounds which are just an excuse it sure looks like racism to me arabs are excluded from cabinet even when they do the things you suggest because they are arabs unless of course you have a better reason i am happy to listen to any good reason why a leftist jew is less of a security risk than a leftist arab from the same party look at the present cabinet joseph askew joseph askew gauche and proud in the autumn stillness see the pleiades jaskew spam maths adelaide edu remote in thorny deserts fell the grief disclaimer sue see if i care north of our tents the sky must end somwhere actually i rather like brenda beyond the pale the river murmurs on
talk.politics.mideast	re baltic states and realism and virvir drivel in article may husc harvard edu verbit brauer harvard edu mikhail s verbitsky writes my words if he behaves as mutlu he would carry the similar treatment especially as his oversized articles are scanned from propagandist leaflets or from other stuff easily available in any decent library typical virvir drivel people will think you re just some looney howling in the wires if you think that this clears things up for me or anyone else you must also believe that aliens from outer space come to earth regularly and abduct arromdians of asala sdpa arf for medical experiments there is stronger evidence for that you know propagandist leaflets this is an american officer on the genocide of million muslim people by the armenians between and not a crook idiot like yourself source world alive a personal story by robert dunn crown publishers inc new york memoirs of an american officer who witnessed the armenian genocide of million muslim people p seventh paragraph and p first paragraph the most are inside houses come you and look no dammit my stomach isn t one is a turkish officer in uniform him you must see we were under those trees by the mosque in an open space i don t believe you i said but followed to a nail studded door the man pushed it ajar then spurred away leaving me to check on the corpse i thought i should this charge was so constant so gritted my teeth and went inside the place was cool but reeked of sodden ashes and was dark at first for its stone walls had only window slits rags strewed the mud floor around an iron tripod over embers that vented their smoke through roof beams black with soot all looked bare and empty but in an inner room flies buzzed as the door swung shut behind me i saw they came from a man s body lying face up naked but for its grimy turban he was about fifty years old by what was left of his face a rifle butt had bashed an eye the one left slanted as with tartars rather than with turks any uniform once on him was gone so i d no proof which he was and quickly went out gagging at the mess of his slashed genitals p first paragraph how many people lived there oh about eight hundred he yawned did you see any turk officers no sir i was in at dawn all were tartar civilians in mufti the lieutenant dozed off then i but in the small hours a voice woke me dro s he stood in the starlight bawling out an officer anyone keelhauled so long and furiously i d never heard then abruptly dro broke into laughter quick and simple as child s both were a cover for his sense of guilt i thought or hoped for somehow despite my boast of irreligion christian massacring infidels was more horrible than the reverse would have been from daybreak on armenian villagers poured in from miles around the women plundered happily chattering like ravens as they picked over the carcass of djul they hauled out every hovel s chattels the last scrap of food or cloth and staggered away packing pots saddlebags looms even spinning wheels thank you for a lot dro i said to him back in camp but now i must leave we shook hands the captain said a bientot mon camarade and for hours the old molokan scout and i plodded north across parching plains like lot s wife i looked back once to see smoke bathing all doubtless in a sack of other moslem villages up to the line of snow that was iran p at morning tea dro and his officers spread out a map of this whole high region called the karabakh deep in tactics they spoke russian but i got their contempt for allied neutral zones and their distrust of promises made by tribal chiefs a campaign shaped more raids on moslem villages p it will be three hours to take dro told me we d close in on three sides the men on foot will not shoot but use only the bayonets merrimanov said jabbing a rifle in dumbshow that is for morale dro put in we must keep the moslems in terror soldiers or civilians i asked there is no difference said dro all are armed in uniform or not but the women and children will fly with the others as best they may p the ridges circled a wide expanse its floors still hundreds of feet down the fog held solid as cotton flock djul lies under that said dro pointing our men also attack from the other sides then whee ee his whistle lined up all at the rock edge bayonets clicked upon carbines over plunged archo his black haunches rippling then followed the staff the horde nose to tail bellies taking the spur armenia in action seemed more like a pageant than war even though i heard our utica brass roar as i watched from the height it took ages for djul to show clear a tsing of machine gun fire took over from the thumping batteries cattle lowed dogs barked invisible while i ate a hunk of cheese and drank from a snow puddle mist at last folded upward as men shouted at first heard faintly the came a shrill wailing now among the cloud streaks rose darker wisps smoke red glimmered about house walls of stone or wattle into dry weeds on roofs a mosque stood in clump of trees thick and green through crooked alleys on fire horsemen were galloping after figures both mounted and on foot tartarski shouted the gunner by me others pantomimed them in escape over the rocks while one twisted a bronze shell nose loaded and yanked breech cord firing again and again shots wasted i thought when by afternoon i looked in vain for fallen branch or body but these shots and the white bursts of shrapnel in the gullies drowned the women s cries at length all shooting petered out i got on my horse and rode down toward djul it burned still but little flame showed now the way was steep and tough through dense scrub finally on flatter ground i came out suddenly through alders on smoldering houses across trampled wheat my brothers in arms were leading off animals several calves and a lamb p fourth paragraph corpses came next the first a pretty child with straight black hair large eyes she looked about twelve years old she lay in some stubble where meal lay scattered from the sack she d been toting the bayonet had gone through her back i judged for blood around was scant between the breasts one clot too small for a bullet wound crusted her homespun dress the next was a boy of ten or less in rawhide jacket and knee pants he lay face down in the path by several huts one arm reached out to the pewter bowl he d carried now upset upon its dough steel had jabbed just below his neck into the spine there were grownups too i saw as i led the sorrel around djul was empty of the living till i looked up to see beside me dro s german speaking colonel he said all tartars who had not escaped were dead p more stories of armenian murdering turks when the czarist troops fled north my hosts told me of their duty here to keep tabs on brigands turkish troop shifts hidden arms spies christian red or tartar coming in from transcaucasus then they spoke of the hell that would break loose if versailles were to put as threatened the six armenian vilayets of turkey under the control of erevan an armenia without armenians turks under christian rule his lips smacked in irony under the droopy red moustache that s bloodshed just smyrna over again on a bigger scale serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re arab leaders and bosnia in article sn f innkh minerva cis yale edu pavlovic milan yale edu milan pavlovic writes i really disagree with you that beacon of genocide apology is a self admitted exposed compulsive liar and a mouthpiece for the criminal nazi armenians of the asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle i just love these eloquent one liners you are not sticking to the original question imagine what it would be like if you were human impossible you say it could be your head wasn t screwed on just right clock during this is an old one you said that to me once is that not the crux of my argument why is this so difficult for you to understand lack of intelligence need i go on actually i would like to get a compilation of these one liners so that i could print them out and show them to my friends over the summer and they can see what kind of clowns exist out there in chicago well does it change the fact that during the period of to the armenian government ordered incited assisted and participated in the genocide of million muslim people because of race religion and national origin armenians did slaughter the entire muslim population of van armenians did slaughter of muslim population of bitlis armenians did slaughter of muslim population of erzurum armenians did slaughter of muslim population of diyarbakir armenians did slaughter of muslim population of mamuretulaziz armenians did slaughter of muslim population of sivas armenians did slaughter the entire muslim population of the x soviet armenia mccarthy j muslims and minorities the population of ottoman anatolia and the end of the empire new york university press new york pp karpat k ottoman population the university of wisconsin press hovannisian r g armenia on the road to independence university of california press berkeley and los angeles pp shaw s j on armenian collaboration with invading russian armies in history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey volume ii reform revolution republic the rise of modern turkey london cambridge university press pp gochnak armenian newspaper published in the united states may source jorge blanco villalta ataturk tkk pg they armenians did not refrain from giving in to their racial hatred and committing acts of cruelty and massacres against the moslem population which were encouraged by the tashnak party mortal enemies of turkey serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re kissenger says no in article befdde news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes you are right to notice my assumptions i should have used bosnian serbs and serbia and bosnian muslims in my post how quaint of you to point this out and then to completely ignore all of the blatant lies you ve trotted out the scenario and genocide staged by the armenians years ago in eastern anatolia and x soviet armenia is being reenacted again this time in azerbaijan there are remarkable similarities between the plots the perpetrators and the underdogs remember in article bac d news service uci edu you have blatantly lied and still have not corrected yourself the goltz article was not published in the sunday times magazine on march but in the guardian sunday section the story was not filed frim agdam but from london i ll let the rest of the net judge this on its own merits source the sunday times march a british weekly written by thomas goltz from agdam azerbaijan armenian soldiers massacre hundreds of fleeing families the spiralling violence gripping the outer republics of the former soviet union gained new impetus yesterday with cold blooded slaughter of hundreds of women and children in war racked nagorno karabakh survivors reported that armenian soldiers shot and bayoneted more than azeris many of them women and children who were fleeing an attack on their town hundreds possibly thousands were missing and feared dead the attackers killed most of the soldiers and volunteers defending the women and children they then turned their guns on the terrified refugees the few survivors later described what happened that s when the real slaughter began said azer hajiev one of three soldiers to survive the armenians just shot and shot and then they came in and started carving up people with their bayonets and knives they were shooting shooting shooting echoed rasia aslanova who arrived in agdam with other women and children who made their way through armenian lines she said her husband kayun and a son in law were killed in front of her her daughter was still missing one boy who arrived in agdam had an ear sliced off the survivors said others some of whom had fled separately were still missing in the gruelling terrain many could perish from their wounds or the cold by late yesterday deaths had been registered at the morgue in agdam s morgue and bodies had been buried in the cemetery of the seven corpses i saw awaiting burial two were children and three were women one shot through the chest at point blank range agdam hospital was a scene of carnage and terror doctors said they had patients who escaped slaughter most with bullet injuries or deep stab wounds nor were they safe in agdam on friday night rockets fell on the city which has a population of destroying several buildings and killing one person now wait there is more it s inhumane to ignore this violence the stories of survivors of karabag massacre year old hatin nine telling my twin grandchildren were cut to pieces in front of my eyes they told me we won t kill you but the babies have to die in front of your eyes year old huseyin ibrahimoglu our turkish village in khojalu town was blown up in two hours while killing children and babies mercilessly they said you are turks you must die year old gulsum huseyin they bayonetted my year old daughter in her stomach in front of my eyes are these stories lies have the eye witnesses been day dreaming were these stories forged by turkish journalists in the region the nonsense of such a claim is clear from the writings of british journalists too two days before we had quoted from a sunday times article they british reported the events in karabag even before turkish journalists what is more here are the pictures pictures of people who were bayonetted whose eyes were gouged ears cut off even the armenian radio couldn t claim these lies they are saying exaggeration that means somethings have happened but the situation is not as bad as reported perhaps that village of khojalu town was destroyed in hours instead of or gulsum huseyin s year old daughter was bayonetted in her chest instead of stomach the massacre is clearly seen with all its dimensions the effects of this massacre on karabag and environs cannot be reduced by any word some of the western press led by some french newspapers ability to close their eyes is nothing but complicity in this massacre yesterday we gave samples from le figaro until yesterday s print no news about the real events in karabag were printed so were the french tv channels the subject they considered related to karabag was the necessity of protecting armenians against azeri attacks the age we are living in is termed a human rights age there are lots of organizations such as united nations and csce conference on security and cooperation in europe and rules all designed to fight against human rights violations international reactions must be made with international cooperation with support of everybody and every organization claiming to be civilized could there be a more serious human rights violation than that of the right to live and with such levels of barbarity and cruelty where is the cooperation where are the reactions and the intellectuals journalists writers tv stations of certain western countries such as france who are fast to claim leadership of human rights where are you serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re the greek authorities deny even the existence of a turkish minority in article may news uiowa edu mau herky cs uiowa edu mau napoleon writes a few thousand yup yes there are a few thousand left today after years of opression by turkey i expect better from you mau no i take that back i don t the treaty on the exchange of the turkish and greek minorities left no greek minority in turkiye except a few thousand greeks in istanbul turkiye is no longer an obstacle for pan hellenism although the material basis of greek policy is no longer visible there is a residue which seems to unite the pelopenisians the greeks who came from asia minor the greeks who are originally from the islands of the marmara sea or those who live in the numerous aegean islands this residue is also recognizable in the contemporary greek government as far a greek turkish wars are conserned i find it funny that a so informed turk like you forgot to mention the balkan wars not a chance greece lost in each and every war conducted solely between greece and turkiye in the morea in in thessaly in and in anatolia in after the ottoman empire lost world war i the british landed in a greek army in izmir to exterminate the people of turkiye are you suffering from a severe case of amnesia the tired and defeated turks rose up formed a national force under the leadership of mustafa kemal and on august they annihilated the bulk of the greek army turkiye is no longer an obstacle for pan hellenism besides greece lost in each and every war conducted solely between greece and turkiye in the morea in in thessaly in and in anatolia in especially the greek defeat referred to as the tragedy of anatolia by the greeks had momentous effects on greek mind and behaviour i find it curious that a historian like you forgot the wars that demolished the ottoman empire i love people who don t read and then spout myths as evidence where were greeks in and i guess they were busy with greek efforts to decimate the jewish population of salonica culminated in and those jews who survived these assaults in southeastern europe fled particularly to salonica whose jewish population increased substantially as a result from in to in more than half the total population though even there increased persecution by local greeks led many jews to flee elsewhere in the ottoman empire particularly to the great port of izmir despite all the pressure from ottomans and foreign jews alike the ritual murders and other assaults by christians on jews went on and on greek efforts to decimate the jewish population of salonica culminated in and following greek conquest of salonica during the first balkan war when many of its jews were either killed or terrorized into leaving though greece was obligated by the post world war i treaties to allow jews and other minorities to use their own languages in education and to practice their religions without hindrance a law was issued in which forbad all inhabitants from working on sunday stimulating a new jewish exodus as it was intended to do between and there was a series of anti semitic riots in salonica with the cambel quarter where most of the remaining jews lived being burned to the ground this was followed by regulations requiring the use of greek and prohibiting hebrew and judea spanish in the jewish schools a start was made also on expropriating the land of the principal jewish cemetery in salonica for use by the new university in order to derive the jews out by killing and driving out large numbers of jews the greeks left a substantial greek majority in the city for the first time and starting salonica jewry on the way to its final decimation by the nazis during the occupation of greece starting in salonica and izmir of course were not the only places of refuge for jewish refugees entering the empire during its last century of existence istanbul edirne and other parts of rumelia and anatolia received thousands more nor were jews the only refugees received and helped by the government of the sultan thousands of muslims accompanied them in flight from similar persecutions wherever balkan christian states gained independence or expanded the russian conquest of the crimea and the caucasus starting in the late eighteenth century and particularly during and after the crimean war combined with the same independence movements in southeastern europe that had caused so much suffering and flight among its jews caused thousands of helpless ill and poverty stricken muslim refugees to accompany them into the ever shrinking boundaries of the ottoman empire with the istanbul government struggling mightly but vainly to house and feed them as best it could from to as many as crimean tatars circassians and other muslims from north and east of the black sea had entered anatolia alone as many as more came during the next twenty years while refugees entered in as a result of the ottoman wars with russia and the balkan states with an equal number gaining refuge in the european portions of the empire robert mantran la structure sociale de la communaute juive de salonqiue a la fin du dix neuvieme siecle rh no nehama vii joseph nehama salonica to aiu paris no may aiu archives i c and no january aiu archives i c describing daily battles between jewish and greek children in the streets of salonica benghiat director of ecole moise allatini salonica to aiu paris no december aiu archives i c describing greek attacks on jews boycotts of jewish shops and manufacturers and greek press campaigns leading to blood libel attacks cohen ecole secondaire moise allatini salonica to aiu paris no december aiu archives i c describes a week of terror that followed the greek army occupation of salonica in with the soldiers pillaging the jewish quarters and destroying jewish synagogues accompanied by what he described as an explosion of hatred by local greek population against local jews and muslims mizrahi president of the aiu at salonica reported to the aiu paris no july aiu archives i c that it was not only the irregulars comitadjis that massacred pillaged and burned the army soldiers the chief of police and the high civil officials also took an active part in the horrors moise tovi salonica to aiu paris no august aiu archives i c describes the greek pillage of the jewish quarter during the night of august aiu alliance israelite universelle paris serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	as for the genocide of azeris by the armenians in article bav psuvm psu edu boris a veytsman bav psuvm psu edu writes maybe the following example helps it is understandable that the views of a gic are his alone nevertheless any independent or alone sorry but the following western scholars are forced to disagree with you during the first world war and the ensuing years the armenians through a premeditated and systematic genocide tried to complete its centuries old policy of annihilation against the turks and kurds by savagely murdering million muslims and deporting the rest from their year homeland the attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance of genocide in the th century acted upon an entire people this event is incontrovertibly proven by historians government and international political leaders such as u s ambassador mark bristol william langer ambassador layard james barton stanford shaw arthur chester john dewey robert dunn papazian nalbandian ohanus appressian jorge blanco villalta general nikolayef general bolkovitinof general prjevalski general odiselidze meguerditche kazimir motayef twerdokhlebof general hamelin rawlinson avetis aharonian dr stephan eshnanie varandian general bronsart arfa dr hamlin boghos nubar sarkis atamian katchaznouni rachel bortnick halide edip mccarthy w b allen paul muratoff and many others j c hurewitz professor of government emeritus former director of the middle east institute columbia university bernard lewis cleveland e dodge professor of near eastern history princeton university halil inalcik university professor of ottoman history member of the american academy of arts sciences university of chicago peter golden professor of history rutgers university newark stanford shaw professor of history university of california at los angeles thomas naff professor of history director middle east research institute university of pennsylvania ronald jennings associate professor of history asian studies university of illinois howard reed professor of history university of connecticut dankwart rustow distinguished university professor of political science city university graduate school new york john woods associate professor of middle eastern history university of chicago john masson smith jr professor of history university of california at berkeley alan fisher professor of history michigan state university avigdor levy professor of history brandeis university andreas g e bodrogligetti professor of history university of california at los angeles kathleen burrill associate professor of turkish studies columbia university roderic davison professor of history george washington university walter denny professor of history university of massachusetts caesar farah professor of history university of minnesota tom goodrich professor of history indiana university of pennsylvania tibor halasi kun professor emeritus of turkish studies columbia university justin mccarthy professor of history university of louisville jon mandaville professor of history portland state university oregon robert olson professor of history university of kentucky madeline zilfi professor of history university of maryland james stewart robinson professor of turkish studies university of michigan so the list goes on and on and on as for the genocide of the azeri people by the armenians source channel news at monday march french journalists have seen corpses of men women and children in civilian clothes many of them shot dead from their heads as close as less than meter source bbc morning news at tuesday march bbc reporter was live on line and he claimed that he saw more than bodies of azeri men women and children as well as a baby who are shot dead from their heads from a very short distance source bbc morning news at tuesday march very disturbing picture has shown that many civilian corpses who were picked up from mountain reporter said he cameraman and western journalists have seen more than corpses who are men women children massacred by armenians they have been shot dead from their heads as close as meter picture also has shown nearly ten bodies mainly women and children are shot dead from their heads azerbaijan claimed that more than civilians massacred by armenian forces serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	eyewitnesses of the armenian genocide of million muslims in article may zeus tamu edu smt zeus tamu edu stephanie tsai writes serdar argic i implore you please stop posting and reposting all those messages regarding armenian actions call it what you will but i see them as hate messages rather than facts every civilization as old as the turkish and armenian civilizations are guilty of barbaric acts and this is no longer the time nor the place to espouse such hatred what good will it do i read a lot of newsgroups to gain hate messages rather than facts sorry but your argument falls flat on its face some of the references from eminent authors in the field of middle eastern history and eyewitnesses of the armenian genocide of million muslims the armenian revolutionary movement by louise nalbandian university of california press berkeley los angeles diplomacy of imperialism by william i lenger professor of history harward university boston alfred a knopt new york turkey in europe by sir charles elliot edward arnold london the chatnam house version and other middle eastern studies by elie kedouri praeger publishers new york washington the rising crescent by ernest jackh farrar reinhart inc new york toronto spiritual and political evolutions in islam by felix valyi mogan paul trench truebner co london the struggle for power in moslem asia by e alexander powell the century co new york london struggle for transcaucasia by feruz kazemzadeh yale university press new haven conn history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey volumes by stanford j shaw cambridge university press cambridge new york melbourne the western question in greece and turkey by arnold j toynbee constable co ltd london bombay sydney the caliph s last heritage by sir mark sykes macmillan co london men are like that by leonard a hartill bobbs co indianapolis adventures in the near east by a rawlinson dodd meade co world alive a personal story by robert dunn crown publishers inc new york from sardarapat to serves and lousanne by avetis aharonian the armenian review magazine volume fall through spring armenia on the road to independence by richard g hovanessian university of california press berkeley california the rebirth of turkey by clair price thomas seltzer new york caucasian battlefields by w b allen paul muratoff cambridge partition of turkey by harry n howard h fertig new york the king crane commission by harry n howard beirut united states policy and partition of turkey by laurence evans john hopkins university press baltimore british documents related to turkish war of independence by gothard jaeschke neside kerem demir bir sehid anasina tarihin soyledikleri turkiye nin ermeni meselesi hulbe basim ve yayin t a s ankara ingilizce birinci baski the armenian question in turkey veysel eroglu ermeni mezalimi sebil yayinevi istanbul a alper gazigiray osmanlilardan gunumuze kadar vesikalarla ermeni teroru nun kaynaklari gozen kitabevi istanbul dr kirzioglu m fahrettin kars ili ve cevresinde ermeni mezalimi kardes matbaasi ankara t c basbakanlik osmanli arsivi babiali istanbul a yildiz esas evraki b yildiz perakende c irade defterleri d cemaat i gayr i muslime defterleri e meclisi vukela mazbatalari f dahiliye nezareti kalem i mahsus dosyalari g dahiliye nezareti sifre defterleri h babiali evrak odasi siyasi kartonlar i babiali evrak odasi muhimme kartonlari t c disisleri bakanligi hazine i evrak defterdarlik a harb i umumi b muteferrik kartonlar british archives a parliamentary papers hansard commons lords b foreign office confidential print various collections c foreign office turkey correspondence annual reports d foreign office e foreign office political intelligence general correspondence f foreign office ryan papers g foreign office curzon papers h foreign office the eastern conference lausanne files india office records and library blackfriars road london a l political and security five boxes turkey treaty of peace b l p s near east turkey and greece lausanne conference c l p s d l p s french archives archives du ministere des affaires entrangeres quai d orsay paris a documents diplomatiques affaires armeniens collections b guerre turquie legion d orient c levant armenie official publications published documents diplomatic correspondence agreements minutes and others a turkey the ottoman empire and the republic of turkey akarli e ed belgelerle tanzimat istanbul gn kur atase askeri tarih belgeleri dergisi v xxxi dec askeri tarih belgeleri dergisi v xxxii dec hocaoglu m ed ittihad i anasir i osmaniye heyeti nizamnamesi istanbul meray s l trans ed lozan baris konferansi tutanaklar belgeler ankara vols meray s l o olcay ed osmanli imparatorlugu nun cokus belgeleri mondros birakismasi sevr andlasmasi ilgili belgeler ankara osmanli devleti dahiliye nezareti aspirations et agissements revolutionnaires des comites armeniens avant et apres la proclamation de la constitution ottomane istanbul ermeni komitelerinin amal ve hareket i ihtilaliyesi ilan i mesrutiyetten evvel ve sonra istanbul idare i umumiye ve vilayet kanunu istanbul muharrerat i umumiye mecmuasi v i istanbul muharrerat i umumiye mecmuasi v ii istanbul muharrerat i umumiye mecmuasi v iii istanbul muharrerat i umumiye mecmuasi v iv istanbul osmanli devleti hariciye nezareti imtiyazat i ecnebiyye nin lagvindan dolayi memurine teblig olunacak talimatname istanbul osmanli devleti harbiye nezareti islam ahalinin ducar olduklari mezalim hakkinda vesaike mustenid malumat istanbul iv ordu aliye divan i harbi orfisinde tedkik olunan mesele yi siyasiye hakkinda izahat istanbul turkozu h k ed osmanli ve sovyet belgeleriyle ermeni mezalimi ankara turkiye buyuk millet meclisi gizli celse zabitlari ankara vols russia adamof e e ed sovyet devlet arsivi belgeleriyle anadolu nun taksimi plani tran h rahmi ed h mutlucag istanbul altinay a r iki komite iki kital istanbul kafkas yollarinda hatiralar ve tahassusler istanbul turkiye de katolik propagandasi turk tarihi encumeni mecmuasi v xiv sept asaf muammer harb ve mesulleri istanbul akboy c birinci dunya harbinde turk harbi v i osmanli imparatorlugu nun siyasi ve askeri hazirliklari ve harbe girisi gn kur ankara akgun s general harbord un anadolu gezisi ve ermeni meselesi ne dair raporu kurtulus savasi baslangicinda istanbul akin i turk devrim tarihi istanbul aksin s jon turkler ve ittihad ve terakki istanbul basar z ed ermenilerden gorduklerimiz ankara ermeniler hakkinda makaleler derlemeler ankara belen f birinci dunya harbinde turk harbi ankara deliorman a turklere karsi ermeni komitecileri istanbul ege n n ed prens sabahaddin hayati ve ilmi mudafaalari istanbul ercikan a ermenilerin bizans ve osmanli imparatorluklarindaki rolleri ankara gurun k ermeni sorunu yahut bir sorun nasil yaratilir turk tarihinde ermeniler sempozyumu izmir hocaoglu m arsiv vesikalariyla tarihte ermeni mezalimi ve ermeniler istanbul karal e s osmanli tarihi v v th ed v vi nd ed v vii nd ed v viii nd ed ankara kurat y t osmanli imparatorlugu nun paylasilmasi ankara orel s s yuca ermenilerce talat pasa ya atfedilen telgraflarin icyuzu ankara also in english translation ahmad f the young turks the committee of union and progress in turkish politics oxford serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re zionist leaders frank statements in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes from center for policy research cpr subject zionist leaders frank statements the following are quotations from zionist leaders they appear in numerous scholarly works dealing with the palestine question i urge those who have access to original sources to verify the authenticity of the source and post here their finding adhering to the truth whatever it be thanks elias davidsson quotations from zionist leaders there was no such thing as palestinians golda meir prime minister of israel london sunday times june they certainly never called themselves palestinians when we have settled the land all the arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle raphael eitan israeli chief of staff new york times april coming from a soldier that can t surprise you eitan is now in charge of tsomet and there s a reason why he only gets a few votes every year they only elect him because he is squeaky clean no corruption the palestinians are beasts walking on two legs menachem begin prime minister of israel in a speech to the knesset quoted in amnon kapeliouk begin and the beasts new statesman june i m ignorant what s new statesman both the process of expropriation of the palestinians and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly dr theodor herzl the complete diaries herzl press i p oh those crafty jews again when will you learn anti semite from iceland between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both people together in this country the only solution is a palestine without arabs and there is no other way than to transfer the arabs from here to the neighboring countries to transfer all of them not one village not one tribe should be left joseph weitz jewish national fund administrator responsible for zionist colonization davar september let s face it in what other view was there we shall try to spirit the penniless population the palestinians across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries while denying it any employment in our own country theodor herzl the complete diaries herzl press i p the penniless could mean anyone big guy grow up i hate your brackets zionists looked for means to cause the tens of thousands of sulky arabs who remained in the galilee to flee i gathered all the jewish muktars who have contact with arabs in different villages and asked them to whisper in the ears of some arabs that a great jewish reinforcement has arrived in galilee and that it is going to burn all of the villages of the huleh they should suggest to these arabs as their friends to escape while there is still time the tactic reached its goal wide areas were cleaned yig al alon sepher ha palmach in hebrew ii p quoted in khalidi from haven to conquest ips they gave them advance warning not like the plo eh jews must expel arabs and take their place david ben gurion quoted in shabtai teveth ben gurion and the palestine arabs oxford university press p yeah yeah more brackets am i too picky we must do everything to ensure they the palestinian refugees never do return david ben gurion in his diary july quoted in michael bar zohar ben gurion the armed prophet prentice hall p bracket man the country was mostly an empty desert with only a few islands of arab settlement shimon peres minister of defense quoted in david s sling the arming of israel weidenfeld and nicholson p that was the truth were you there elias all this story about the danger of extermination of jews has been blown up to justify the annexation of new arab territories mordechai bentov israeli cabinet minister al hamishmar april so the holocaust never happened eh naziman elias neither jewish ethics nor jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat yitzhak shamir hehazit summer journal of the lehi the stern gang translated from the israeli daily al hamishmar december lehi always warned in advance not the plo buddy boy the domination of jewish agriculture by arab workers is a cancer in our body a uzan israeli minister of agriculture ha aretz december it was true why should jews be unemployed we say that in america jerky there can be only one national home in palestine and that a jewish one and no equality in the partnership between jews and arabs montague david eder president of the zionist federation of great britain in doreen ingrams comp palestine papers seeds of conflict george braziller p i firmly believe that today i hope that the jewish frontiers of palestine will be as great as jewish energy for getting palestine dr chaim weizmann first president of the state of israel excerpts from his historic statements writings and addresses jewish agency for palestine p you don t understand metaphor naziman and your quotes lead nowhere not only do i doubt there actuality but i guarantee they were compiled by some neo nazi group but i love your pseudo intellectual approach it makes you sound even dumber than your conclusions echad medinot leshtai amim peace pete
talk.politics.mideast	re news that i missed some articles on the topic rtw gulf arabs demand iran withdrawal from islands eds updates with end of summit details quotes by youssef azmeh abu dhabi dec reuter gulf arab states emerging from a summit that restored their unity after almost three months of crisis piled pressure on iran on wednesday to reverse its virtual annexation of a strategic gulf island they issued a statement after a three day gulf cooperation council summit saying iran had to show proof of its good neighbourly intentions by rescinding measures that rocked gulf stability and security the leaders avoided the anti iranian rhetoric of recent statements by egypt which engineered a last minute settlement of a border row between saudi arabia and qatar that allowed all members to attend the summit egypt said its fears about iranian intentions in the region and tehran s alleged encouragement of moslem fundamentalist unrest were largely behind president hosni mubarak s mediation the gcc statement stressed that developing relations between the gulf arab states and iran is linked to enhacing confidence and to measures iran might take in line with its commitment to the principle of good neighbourliness and the respect of the sovreignty and territorial integrity of the region s states it denounced iran s measures on the island of abu musa which it shares with the united arab emirates and the continued occupation of the greater and lesser tumbs islands iran earlier this year extended its control over abu musa beyond a small garrison it established there in under an agreement with the uae emirate of sharjah it has since rescinded orders expelling foreigners who worked on the island for the uae government but diplomats say it continues to exercise its authority over the whole island which the uae sess as as virtual annexation the tumbs were occupied by the former shah of iran in and the uae has since the abu musa crisis erupted insisted that they have to be returned as part of a general settlement the gcc leaders called on the u n to maintain sanctions against iraq for not fully implementing security council resolutions following its invasion of kuwait they endorsed once again the damascus declaration a pact signed with egypt and syria after their troops took part in the u s led alliance that drove iraqi troops out of kuwait but delegates said the leaders were unable to agree the details of a fund they announced they would create at their last summit in kuwait last year which would have helped egypt s and syria s economic development programme they said the leaders could not agree on a breakdown of contributions from each state although the total amount had been scaled down to billion from the billion agreed last year the fact that the leaders of all gcc states saudi arabia bahrain kuwait oman and qatar attended the summit was seen as a major achievement although their unity was only maintained with outside help most delegations were not too worried for the moment about the slow progress of the conservative rulers discussions on a future security structure for the region that boasts the bulk of global oil and gas reserves the leaders were unable to choose between two proposals one put forward by a summit committee headed by oman s sultan qaboos to create a man rapid deployment force that could rush to defend any member against external aggression such as iraq s invasion of kuwait another was a saudi supported plan to expand the existing man peninsula shield force which had so far played a largely symbolic role and is commanded by a saudi general little headway was made on plans for a reginal common market although the summit called for concrete proposals to be submitted to next year s summit due to be held in saudi arabia next december reuter ya dya djg rtw gulf leaders end summit abu dhabi dec reuter gulf arab states ended a three day annual summit on wednesday with an appeal to iran to end its occupation of three strategic gulf islands as a condition for restoring friendly ties across the gulf a joint statement issued after the summit marked by relief over the settlement of a row between two gulf cooperation council members also called for continued u n sanctions against iraq it said baghdad had failed to implement key security council decisions following the expulsion of its troops from kuwait early last year the summit broke no new ground on steps to achieve a gulf common market but called on officials to present a plan for common external tarrifs for all six members to the next summit which will be held in saudi arabia in december the statement stressed that developing relations between the gulf arab states and iran is linked to enhacing confidence and to measures iran might take in line with its commitment to the principle of good neighbourliness and the respect of the sovreignty and territorial integrity of the region s states it denounced iran s measures on the island of abu musa which it shares with the united arab emirates and the continued occupation of the smaller islands the greater and lesser tumbs it expressed deep regret and extreme concern for the unjustified iranian measures which contradict a proclaimed wish to develop relations and called on iran to rescind those measures and end the occupation which it said was shaking peace and stability in the area iran earlier this year extended its control over abu musa beyond a small garrison it established there in under an agreement with the uae emirate of sharjah it has since rescinded orders expelling foreigners who worked on the island for the uae government but diplomats in the region say that its security forces continue to exercise their authority over the whole island the uae has seen this as virtual annexation the tumbs were occupied by the former shah of iran in and the uae has since the abu musa crisis erupted insisted that they have to be returned as part of a general settlement reuter ya dya djg rtw iran hints it ready to go to war over islands eds updates with snsc statement nicosia dec reuter iran told its gulf arab neighbours on saturday it was ready to defend militarily three disputed islands reminding them of its eight year war with iraq our eight year defence in the iran iraq war has proved to the world that our brave nation will never hesitate to defend the sovereignty and safeguard the territorial integrity of iran iran s supreme national security council snsc said a meeting of the heads of the six nation gulf cooperation council voiced full support on wednesday for the united arab emirates uae in its dispute with iran over the gulf islands of abu musa greater tumb and lesser tumb the move has triggered strong iranian criticism and warnings besides the uae the gcc also groups bahrain kuwait oman qatar and saudi arabia iranian president akbar hashemi rafsanjani who chaired the snsc s meeting on saturday said during his friday prayer sermon at tehran university iran is surely stronger than the likes of you to reach these islands one has to cross a sea of blood the snsc quoted by the official iranian news agency irna received in cyprus also criticised the gcc and described its support of the uae as irresponsible no country will ever be able to covet even an inch of iranian soil said the snsc earlier on saturday the english language tehran times believed to be close to the foreign ministry said the uae should be aware that iran s self restraint had certain limits it dismissed a uae claim to the islands as unfounded and said a agreement to share abu musa with the uae emirate of sharjah still applied the idea of abu dhabi officials that tehran would always refrain from responding to the blows inflicted by them was childish tehran times said irna said the newspaper was commenting on the gcc statement which urged iran to reverse what it says is the annexation of abu musa island and to pull out of the two other islands iran says the islands near the entrance to the gulf have historically belonged to it the dispute flared this year after iran tightened its control over abu musa reuter af jch rtw tehran paper wants iran revive claim to bahrain tehran dec reuter radical iranian newspapers angered by gulf arab claims to three disputed islands are hitting back with demands that tehran revive its claim to bahrain and consider improving ties with iraq president akbar hashemi rafsanjani and senior officials strongly condemned a statement last week by leaders of the gulf cooperation council gcc backing the united arab emirates uae in its dispute with iran over the gulf islands but the newspapers salam and jomhuri eslami demanded that tehran go further than restating its resolve to defend its sovereignty over the islands of abu musa greater tumb and lesser tumb it is not very clear why the sheikh of bahrain has joined the others jomhuri eslami said the gcc groups bahrain kuwait oman qatar saudi arabia and the uae if historical records are to be the criterion the sheikh of bahrain should go about his own business and the rule of iranian people in bahrain which belonged to iran until should be re established the paper said it is fitting for the foreign ministry to raise the question of iran s sovereignty over bahrain and start a serious and effective drive to end the separation of bahrain from iran it added the late shah of iran relinquished iran s claim to bahrain in a year before the island became an independent state iranian leaders since the islamic revolution have carefully avoided raising the bahrain issue although it is occasionally brought up in the press during periods of tension with conservative arab states across the gulf salam newspaper said the gcc stand showed that the policy of appeasing pro western gulf arab rulers had backfired no matter how much you smile at sheikhs on the southern coast of the persian gulf it is the united states and the west which speak the last word it said they the sheikhs are nobody salam said adding that iran should revise its policy towards its neighbours especially its former war enemy iraq disregarding the logical potential of expanding ties with iraq and going along with some saudi backed trends among the iraqi opposition have played a role in the formation of the current situation the paper said ties between iran and iraq which fought a war from to improved briefly after iraq invaded kuwait in but tehran which denounced the invasion and remained neutral in the ensuing war again called for president saddam hussein s overthrow when he suppressed a shi ite moslem revolt which swept southern iraq after his defeat in kuwait reuter sij mz aet
talk.politics.mideast	re israel not an apartheid state in article spam maths adelaide edu au jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au joseph askew writes in article se ninnfo early bird think com shaig think com shai guday writes in article spam maths adelaide edu au jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au joseph askew writes there are arabs in cabinet but look how long it took and to what insignificant positions they are assigned and this is based solely on race not political belief or security as jewish members of the same party have always been welcome just not their fellow arabs first of all the arab standing in any party or as any party is solely dependent upon the amount of political power they can wield effectively it is not a question of an individuals standing when a party puts up an arab for a cabinet post and that arab is rejected but the position is given to a jew from the same party we are not talking about power but racism not necessarily as shai points out political appointments are based on power they are also based on favors owed coalition building and deal making while this may have a racist element to it i think that its much more fair to attribute it to the old boy nature of politics now i ll freely admit that the old boy system has racist and sexist effects but i don t think that those are its purpose whether in the us israel or elsewhere in the past they have not been effective at garnering votes and forming a single bloc in the knesset on the few occasions when this was done some of the parties took stands that were extremist and ineffect precluded themselves from forming a coalition and participating in the cabinet not their party them as individuals even when they belong to nice peaceful zionist mainstream parties they are not welcome arabs are excluded on ficitious security grounds which are just an excuse it sure looks like racism to me here again you miss out on the old boy nature of politics and the existance of back room deals as individuals these arabs may not be as well connected as the jew who gets the job i don t like this aspect of politics but i understand it exists adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
talk.politics.mideast	the fraud of elias davidsson elias davidsson writes ed the following are quotations from zionist leaders they appear in ed numerous scholarly works dealing with the palestine question i urge those ed who have access to original sources to verify the authenticity of the ed source and post here their finding adhering to the truth whatever it be it is your responsibility for posting quotes in context your phony research center is the source of the most unscholarly out of context agenda ridden and sophmoric propaganda that i have ever seen don t believe me folks let s take a little stroll through a few of elias davidsson s contributions to our understanding of the middle east ed quotations from zionist leaders ed there was no such thing as palestinians ed golda meir prime minister of israel london sunday ed times june and what do suggest that she meant by this do you think she meant that the palestinians don t exist or does it actually mean that the people who self identify as palestinians did not appear to be a distinct ethnic group in the eyes of golda meir ed there is however a difficulty from which the zionist ed dares not avert his eyes though he rarely likes to face it ed palestine proper has already its inhabitants ed israel zangwill the voice of jerusalem london ed p when this was written seventy three years ago the people of the region were not all jews they are not all jews now no jew but the most rabid bigot has ever called for an israel to be only for jews that was true then it is true now ed the palestinians are beasts walking on two legs ed menachem begin prime minister of israel in a speech to ed the knesset ed quoted in amnon kapeliouk begin and the beasts new ed statesman june since you inserted the words the palestinians are we cannot know what begin was talking about for someone who wants to embellish his own importance with an absurd pseudo organizational name like the center for policy research you are not a very honest person ed both the process of expropriation of the palestinians ed and the removal of the poor must be carried out ed discreetly and circumspectly ed dr theodor herzl the complete diaries herzl press ed i p herzl died eighty nine years ago are you suggesting that he has stated what is israel s policy today have you ever seen israel even entertain a policy to exclude non jews let alone actually try to remove non jews from israel if you actually believe that this quote has anything to do with israel s non jewish citizenry today you are an idiot but if you realize that israel has no intention of removing non jewish israelis then you are nothing but a common liar this one time i will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are stupid ed we shall try to spirit the penniless population the ed palestinians across the border by procuring employment ed for it in the transit countries while denying it any ed employment in our own country ed theodor herzl the complete diaries herzl press ed i p once again you quote a man gone for almost a century you do so within the context of modern day israel thomas jefferson owned slaves how does this fact define the united states today ed jews must expel arabs and take their place ed david ben gurion quoted in shabtai teveth ben ed gurion and the palestine arabs oxford university press ed p did he say jews or did you add this this was also a statement from ten years before israel became a state it has no bearing on israel ed we must do everything to ensure they the ed palestinian refugees never do return ed david ben gurion in his diary july quoted in ed michael bar zohar ben gurion the armed prophet ed prentice hall p you added the words the palestinian refugees and by doing so you are misleading people into believing that ben gurion who was expressing his hope that people who fled their lands at the encouragement of people such as king abdullah and the mufti of jerusalem was gloating over people abandoning their homes what he was refering to were the arabs with whom jews were at war ed the country was mostly an empty desert with only ed a few islands of arab settlement ed shimon peres minister of defense quoted in david s ed sling the arming of israel weidenfeld and nicholson ed p at the time of the rebirth of israel this was certainly true especially when compared to what israel has accomplished in a few short decades ed all this story about the danger of extermination of ed jews has been blown up to justify the annexation of ed new arab territories ed mordechai bentov israeli cabinet minister al ed hamishmar april since israel has not annexed even one millimeter of territory in more twenty six years this quote is irrelevant ed neither jewish ethics nor jewish tradition can ed disqualify terrorism as a means of combat ed yitzhak shamir hehazit summer journal of the ed lehi the stern gang translated from the israeli daily ed al hamishmar december again you are quoting a man who was fighting for what he had been promised from a time as ancient as biblical to the time of the balfour declaration just a few short years back and what was thought of and described as terrorism by jews didn t include slaughtering olympic athletes brutally murdering the innocent attacking school buses and murdering another human being for the sole reason that he or she is an arab ed the domination of jewish agriculture by arab ed workers is a cancer in our body ed a uzan israeli minister of agriculture ha aretz ed december there were serious concerns about a work force that consisted of people from outside israel it is a wise to be concerned a work force consisting of foreigners is not a good situation for a country ed there can be only one national home in palestine ed and that a jewish one and no equality in the partnership ed between jews and arabs ed montague david eder president of the zionist ed federation of great britain ed in doreen ingrams comp palestine papers ed seeds of conflict george braziller p this also has no meaning for a country formed seventeen years after this statement was made obviously times change this is not what israel is about today i believe the peace talks make this quote irrelevant ed there is not a single jewish village in this country ed that has not been built on the site of an arab village ed moshe dayan ha aretz april this is completely false ed some people talk of expelling to ed arabs in the event of a new war and instruments have ed been prepared ed aharon yariv former chief of israeli military ed intelligence inquiry december expelled from where israel the occupied territories new jersey is there any way we can read this and get an idea as to what on earth he was talking about obviously not ed we should there in palestine form a portion of the ed rampart of europe against asia an outpost of civilization ed as opposed to barbarism ed dr theodor herzl the jewish state london p ed interesting notion considering that this was written nearly a century ago it is quite visionary ed i deeply believe in launching preventive war ed against the arab states without further hesitation by ed doing so we will achieve two targets firstly the ed annihilation of arab power and secondly the expansion ed of our territory ed menachem begin in a speech to the knesset october ed this was said nearly forty years ago begin is dead and it should be obvious to anybody that if israel was expansionist it would have annexed the occupied territories right after it captured them israel would not be negotiating to get rid of them ed during the last years our people have been in a ed process of building up the country and the nation of ed expansion of getting additional jews and additional ed settlements in order to expand the borders here let no ed jew say that the process has ended let no jew say that ed we are near the end of the road ed moshe dayan ma ariv july he s dead too and since israel has not annexed any land at all since you are once again wasting bandwidth with all of these misleading quotes they are so out of sync with the reality of israel that you do nothing but make yourself look like a fanatic desperate to sway people by misleading them ed let us not today fling accusations at the palestinian ed arab murderers who are we that we should argue ed against their hatred for eight years now they sit in ed their refugee camps in gaza and before their very eyes ed we turn into our homestead the land and the villages in ed which they and their forefathers have lived we are a ed generation of settlers and without the steel helmet and ed the cannon we cannot plant a tree and build a home let ed us not shrink back when we see the hatred fermenting ed and filling the lives of hundreds of thousands of arabs ed who sit all around us let us not avert our gaze so that ed our hand shall not slip this is the fate of our generation ed the choice of our life to be prepared and armed strong ed and tough or otherwise the sword will slip from our ed first and our life will be snuffed out ed moshe dayan eulogy of roy rutenberg at kibbutz nahal ed oz quoted in uri avneri israel without zionists collier books macmillan new york p interesting quote it s true that we should never lose sight of the plight of these people we should also recognize that this quote preceded the disgusting wave of arab terrorism and violence directed at innocent people that began in with the massacre of the israeli athletes in munich and continues to this day if your ability to obscure was the equal of your desire to do so truthseekers in this group would have a problem but you are an easily recognized fanatic whose stream of misleading partial and out of context quotes are totally unfettered by the burden of truth
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli destruction of mosque s in jerusalem in article c vi m o bony bony com jake bony bony com jake livni writes you appear to be referring to moshe dayan how do you know that the evicted jordanians were not provided with something else in fact this thread indicates that they were squatters on land that they did not own but received compensation for their loss anyways woe to jews when they feel that recovering land that has been taken from them by force with ethnic cleansing of any remaining jews is disgusting and shameful does anyone have a reference to the claim that the arabs in the moghrabi district were squatters i haven t seen this in the books i have read i haven t seen the opposite either jim eggertj ll mit edu jim eggert
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli destruction of mosque s in jerusalem in slm r dnk terminator rs itd umich edu jlove ivrit ra itd umich edu jack love wrote in article bec a news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes this issue has been going on for a while and your presentation here of just one reference probably won t resolve this issue to those that oppose your insistence that mosques were destroyed even in your location of this one reference you spend most of your quote dealing with an incidence that while abhorrant has nothing to do with the issue at hand here then at the end of the quote there is an almost off hand comment that two mosques were destroyed to support a claim of this nature what other authors support this incident if identifiable mosques were destroyed they are certainly identifiable they have names and addresses steet location the comment by one reporter does make us wonder if this happened but by no means proves it there is no doubt that israeli authorities ordered the destruction of mosques in the vicinity of the wailing wall that does not mean however that once can generalize from this to any other points the entire plaza mosques and all was cleared to make it possible for jews to have a place to worship in the place that was holiest to many of them and which had been denied to them for millenia on the other hand throughout the rest of jerusalem and israel to the best of my knowledge israeli authorities have scrupulously avoided damage to any islamic religious sites this contrasts with the policies of previous regimes which destroyed jewish synagogues out of hate and bigotry or for that matter with the usa around here nobody reroutes freeways to avoid churches synagogues and so forth they just get condemned paid off and the road goes through the same is standard policy for any number of other public projects schools and sports arenas being only two examples anticipating the objection that the cases aren t comparable how not the wall has to count as the tourist attraction in that part of the world making room for the traffic would be a twenty second decision for any city council i ever heard of d c sessions speaking for myself note new network address dcs witsend tnet com author and everything else of tmail dos mail news shell
talk.politics.mideast	re question about last thoughts of israeli pilots when they kill in sk d j hal gnu ai mit edu steel hal gnu ai mit edu nick steel wrote q when an israeli pilot is bombing school children in lebanon gets shot down and crashes head first what s the last thing that goes into his mind head a his butt hole now this has to count as one of the most original and constructive contributions yet on tpm all in all well worth the it took to send it to thousands of computers all over the world d c sessions speaking for myself note new network address dcs witsend tnet com author and everything else of tmail dos mail news shell
talk.politics.mideast	re israel an apartheid state in article smllm m cville srv wam umd edu aap wam umd edu alberto adolfo pinkas writes in article may pasteur berkeley edu adams bellini berkeley edu adam l schwartz writes i consider that defining the belonging to a nation that claims the right to have a state based on religious belief is a form of racism although i don t want to muddy the waters unnecessarily i disagree any discrimination based on religion is not and cannot be racist unless the sole qualification for religious membership is racial this is not the case for israel although it might get a little closer than say islam this of course raises the vexed question of church antisemitism jews have been heavily discriminated against on the grounds of religion in many christian countries if we take russia as an example jews were seriously persecuted but that persecution in the eyes of the church and state stopped at the baptismal font officially anyway if a jew converted there were no legal barriers in his way that i know of anyway peter the great s interior minister came from such a convert background can we then claim that the russian orthodox did not teach antisemitism and was not antisemitic similarly for the roman catholic church i suspect so as this is not a racial taint but one based on belief and as is after all a form of racism well maybe not what is antisemitism then if not something racially based i wonder if hitler killed converts of pure german blood does anyone know one way or the other joseph askew joseph askew gauche and proud in the autumn stillness see the pleiades jaskew spam maths adelaide edu remote in thorny deserts fell the grief disclaimer sue see if i care north of our tents the sky must end somwhere actually i rather like brenda beyond the pale the river murmurs on
talk.politics.mideast	re news that i missed in article c vext lxn bony bony com jake bony bony com jake livni writes in article may ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes in article optima cs arizona edu bakken cs arizona edu dave bakken writes in article c mm a kb bony bony com jake bony bony com jake livni writes in the ny times on sunday may in an article on somalia a reporter writes but last year iran quietly took over four islands belonging to the united arab emirates and deported their people with hardly a protest from the united states does anyone know what this is referring to i seem to have missed it spiked no doubt there was something in the nyt and other sources about this for a few days it is an ongoing border disupute and when the iranians kicked out the uae people it was briefly reported this was many moons ago i don t recall reading of any public us comment if it were a strong protest i probably would have seen it those islands would be abu musa and the greater and lesser tunbs i presume i don t know about a fourth the latter two islands belong to iran and so according to the ny times the islands belong to the united arab emirates jake livni the ny times is in error this is not simply my opinion even the arab sources that i use do not make this claim this of course is assuming that the ny times was refering to the islands that i named above of those islands only abu musa has been in dispute and iranian occupation of that island predates the existence of the uae brad hernlem
talk.politics.mideast	bosnian war taking a strategic turn bosnians call europe s bluff clarinews clarinet com j t nguyen writes united nations upi the muslim dominated government in bosnia herzegovina asked the u n security council tuesday to withdraw all u n personnel from bosnian territory as a first step toward lifting the international arms embargo against the former yugoslav republic the bosnian government saying the presence of u n personnel had become an impediment to critical decisions by the international community indicated the withdrawal of the peacekeepers and relief workers would persuade western governments to lift the arms embargo so muslims could defend themselves against bosnian serbs the security council imposed the arms embargo on the whole of the former yugoslavia in when fighting erupted between serb the imposed it knowing that serbia has a stockpile of weapons and that bosnia will have next to nothing to defend itself many experts predicted a massacre as early as march but the security coucil knew what it was doing france and britain have opposed u s proposals for military air strikes against bosnian serbs saying such strong action would lead to retaliation against their troops and personnel the bosnian move tuesday was in part a bid to undermine the british and french opposition to military intervention based on fears for the safety of european peacekeeping troops and humanitarian personnel silajdzic s ambassador to the united nations mohamed sacirbey who conveyed the letter to the security council members told reporters that the peacekeepers mandate should be modified or they should withdraw he said if the security council refuses to accede to the request his government will take another step he did not elaborate on what other steps the government might take in his letter to the council silajdzic said president clinton understood well the muslims commitment and desperate plight because the united states has been seeking support for lifting of the arms embargo silajdzic said the international community has not realized that the war in bosnia herzegovina was a war of fascist aggression and the maintenance of the arms embargo was an act of arrogant indifference to the fate of hundreds of thousands of loyal bosnian citizens who plead only for the right to defend themselves we beseech the security council to cease an arms embargo that has in practice constituted an international intervention against our legitimate rights as a member of the united nations silajdzic said now read this tim clock co the request to the security council took some members by surprise even though the complaints have been aired by the bosnian government for some time the only allies the muslims could find in the council are non aligned and islamic countries which have been calling for the muslims right to self defense a provision enshrined in the u n charter
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli destruction of mosque s in jerusalem in article y m d witsend uucp d c sessions dcs witsend tnet com writes or for that matter with the usa around here nobody reroutes freeways to avoid churches synagogues and so forth they just get condemned paid off and the road goes through the same is standard policy for any number of other public projects schools and sports arenas being only two examples anticipating the objection that the cases aren t comparable how not the wall has to count as the tourist attraction in that part of the world making room for the traffic would be a twenty second decision for any city council i ever heard of the cases aren t really comparable a project like a freeway requires public hearings court action appeals advance determination of restitution and so on the razing of the moghrabi district in east jerusalem happened within hours of the end of the hostilities of the day war the residents were given only two or three hours notice to pack up and find accomodations elsewhere they had no chance of public hearing debate appeal negotiation or anything it was get out or die in the rubble jim eggertj ll mit edu jim eggert
talk.politics.mideast	addressing turkish genocide apology turkish historical revision zuma uucp via dotage sera zuma uucp serdar argic responded to article sn f innkh minerva cis yale edu pavlovic milan yale edu milan pavlovic who wrote mp actually i would like to get a compilation of these one liners mp so that i could print them out and show them to my friends over the mp summer and they can see what kind of clowns exist out there in chicago check out alt fans serdar argic well does it change the fact that during the period of to the armenian government ordered incited assisted and participated in the genocide of million muslim people because of race religion and national origin muslim race muslim national origin you fool armenians did slaughter the entire muslim population of van no today muslims armenians armenians did slaughter of muslim population of bitlis no today muslims armenians armenians did slaughter of muslim population of erzurum no today muslims armenians armenians did slaughter of muslim population of diyarbakir no today muslims armenians armenians did slaughter of muslim population of mamuretulaziz no today muslims armenians armenians did slaughter of muslim population of sivas no today muslims armenians armenians did slaughter the entire muslim population of the x soviet armenia no the azeri population of armenia in after anti armenian pogroms in azerbaijan was kicked out and sent to azerbaijan the remaining muslims stayed in armenia mccarthy j muslims and minorities the population of ottoman anatolia and the end of the empire new york university press new york pp let s check it out on page of this turkish suggested reference we read the turkish census registered not one person of the gregorian armenian faith in van only one in bayazit and twelve in erzurum a people who had lived in eastern anatolia since before recorded history were simply gone karpat k ottoman population the university of wisconsin press let s check it out but first of all the complete title of this reference includes the words thus such a reference cannot support the above claimed garbage however since this is a turkish suggested reference on pages and on table i b it states there were million armenians in turkey from i guess they were simply gone after wwi hovannisian r g armenia on the road to independence university of california press berkeley and los angeles pp let s check it out on page of this turkish suggested reference under sub title deportation and massacre of turkish armenians it states several authors assert that armenian resistance at van constituted a key factor in the turkish evacuation of persia and motivated the ittihadist young turk leaders to annihilate the turkish armenians the question of responsibility for the massacres or deportation of nearly all ottoman armenians has evolved into a polemic hundreds of books articles and documents have been published to describe the horrifying scenes of violence and death many writers such as the british bryce and toynbee french pinon german lepsius american morganthau and gibbons have insisted that the massacres were predetermined and ruthlessly executed the have refuted the ottoman government s official publications and justifications by substantiating that anti armenian measures were deliberated by the ittihadists even before the outbreak of war the fact remains than an estimated eight hundred thousand to over a million armenians perished within a few months and several hundred thousand more succumbed in the following years to the ravages of disease famine and refugee life unknown numbers of women and children were converted forcibly to islam possessed by turkish men or adopted by moslem families shaw s j on armenian collaboration with invading russian armies in history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey volume ii reform revolution republic the rise of modern turkey london cambridge university press pp stanford shaw is a paid liar revisionist for the turkish government and has been exposed as a plagiarizer for example experts from an interview in greek with professor spyros vryonis from nyc s national herald thanks mr g b few people know of the problem i faced at ucla when professor stanford shaw was due for promotion i knew him to be turkey s man due to my reading knowledge of turkish and my seniority over him i was a member of the promotion committee for that case i sat down and read his entire treatise history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey it took me three months and i found out from volume i that he had plagiarized uzun jarsoglu an eminent turkish specialist on ottoman history shaw himself claimed in his introduction that his treatise was the outcome of a year search through the ottoman archives well i went on leave and managed to show of volume i containing around sentences to be the result of plagiarism matching each sentence with passages from the original work he had even reproduced the errors so i produced a pages manuscript and submitted a pages report on shaw s plagiarism the university however rejected my report and after a closed meeting promoted stanford shaw to distinguished professor i paid a price for all this upset by the whole process i confronted the entire university structure and was considered to be a chauvinist and madman i asked for permission to run a seminar on shaw s book that was denied by the president of the university while the center for near eastern studies granted me permission the president was depriving me of my academic freedom luckily the dean refused to give in and i did run the seminar attended by more than academic people in which i uncovered stanford shaw who refused to attend as a punishment the university froze all my raises gochnak armenian newspaper published in the united states may no chance there was no may th issue of gochnak david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia has not learned a lesson in s d p a center for regional studies anatolia and has forgotten the p o box punishment inflicted on it cambridge ma late turkish president turgut ozal
talk.politics.mideast	re to all my friends on t p m i send greetings this is an outrage i don t even own a dog
talk.politics.mideast	europe vs muslim bosnians i like what mr joseph biden had to say yesterday in the senate condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans and calling that moral rape he went on to say that the reason for that is out right religious bigotry mohamed
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians mohamed s sadek writes i like what mr joseph biden had to say yesterday in the senate condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans and calling that moral rape he went on to say that the reason for that is out right religious bigotry actually this strife in yugoslavia goes back a long way bosinan muslims in collaboration with the nazis did to serbians after the first world war what serbs are doing to muslims now this is not a fresh case of ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga of intense mutual hatred destruction not taking sides in this perpetual war does not amount to religious bigotry it could just be helplessness with regards to bringing peace to a region that does not even know the meaning of the word satya prabhakar
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article c x m ejf news cis umn edu prabhak giga cs umn edu satya prabhakar writes mohamed s sadek writes i like what mr joseph biden had to say yesterday in the senate condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans and calling that moral rape he went on to say that the reason for that is out right religious bigotry actually this strife in yugoslavia goes back a long way bosinan muslims in collaboration with the nazis did to serbians after the first world war what serbs are doing to muslims now this is not a fresh case of ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga of intense mutual hatred destruction not taking sides in this perpetual war does not amount to religious bigotry it could just be helplessness with regards to bringing peace to a region that does not even know the meaning of the word i dont think you re correct here there have been no reports of the bosnians muslims supporting the nazis in their genocide against the serbians the fact is that the croat govt using their secret police called the ustache i think were the prime agents of the nazis in yugoslavia against the serbs satya prabhakar javed
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article c x m ejf news cis umn edu prabhak giga cs umn edu satya prabhakar writes mohamed s sadek writes i like what mr joseph biden had to say yesterday in the senate condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans and calling that moral rape he went on to say that the reason for that is out right religious bigotry actually this strife in yugoslavia goes back a long way bosinan muslims in collaboration with the nazis did to serbians after the first world war what serbs are doing to muslims now this is not a fresh case of ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga of intense mutual hatred destruction not taking sides in this perpetual war does not amount to religious bigotry it could just be helplessness with regards to bringing peace to a region that does not even know the meaning of the word satya prabhakar yeah right sorta like the indian sub contient eh regards emran
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians prabhak giga cs umn edu satya prabhakar writes mohamed s sadek writes i like what mr joseph biden had to say yesterday in the senate condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans and calling that moral rape he went on to say that the reason for that is out right religious bigotry actually this strife in yugoslavia goes back a long way bosinan muslims in collaboration with the nazis did to serbians after the first world war what serbs are doing to muslims now where in the world did you get this please read history books before you start talking something satya prabhakar senad arnautovic
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article c x y xd cbfsb cb att com sadek cbnewsg cb att com mohamed s sadek writes i like what mr joseph biden had to say yesterday in the senate condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans and calling that moral rape he went on to say that the reason for that is out right religious bigotry parts of sen biden s statement were quoted by the washington post today let me put it plainly mr secretary you are required to speak diplomatically i am not i cannot even begin to express to you my contempt for a european policy that is now asking us to participate in what amounts to a codification of the serbian victory what you have encountered is a discouraging mosaic of indifference timidity self delusion and hypocrisy after they held our coats on kuwait and somalia they are asking us to put in a few thousand troops on the ground in order to have the right to speak and in order to implement their new idea of safe havens for the bosnians let s not mince words european policy is based on cultural and religious indifference if not bigotry and i think it s fair to say that this would be an entirely different situation if the muslims were doing what the serbs have done if this was muslim aggression instead of serbian aggression too bad the washington post did not include his next sentence which pointed out that a consequence of such policy is a rising anger within the islamic world the consequences of which we cannot begin to predict later biden told a reporter why he spoke out i think someone has to respond to europe to make it clear this is a big deal so they will understand and it is a big deal by refusing the fundamental human right of self defense to bosnia herzegovina europe and the world have aided the serbian aggression moreover the arms embargo has forced a situation in which bosnian serbs have times more heavy weaponry than bosnian croats and muslims combined under such conditions it is very easy for serbs to play a divide and conquer game and to get the muslims and croats who have strong common interests and who were allied against the serbian aggression to start fighting each other which leads to their mutual catastrophe one final quote u s secretary of state warren christopher has said in rome last week that in practice the embargo had the opposite effect intended it made aggression certain all diplomats who deluded themselves that they could negotiate peace while enforcing a imbalance of power on the ground have contributed to this tragedy sincerely josip
talk.politics.mideast	re israel an apartheid state not quite in article spam maths adelaide edu au jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au joseph askew writes in article se ninnfo early bird think com shaig think com shai guday writes in article spam maths adelaide edu au jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au joseph askew writes there are arabs in cabinet but look how long it took and to what insignificant positions they are assigned and this is based solely on race not political belief or security as jewish members of the same party have always been welcome just not their fellow arabs first of all the arab standing in any party or as any party is solely dependent upon the amount of political power they can wield effectively it is not a question of an individuals standing when a party puts up an arab for a cabinet post and that arab is rejected but the position is given to a jew from the same party we are not talking about power but racism would you care to deny this has happened on several occasions with labour coalitions please cite specific examples where an arab party member was rejected while a jewish party member was accepted if you examine these i am sure you will discover that the arab party member did not have the power base that his jewish counterpart had the party structure in israel has changed quite a bit insofar as knesset member elections go knesset members for most parties are now elected via primaries the top standing members end up with cabinet posts this is purely a political power issue check the ranking of arab labor party members as opposed to jewsih members and let me know which posts are held by jews that ranked lower in the party than their arab fellow electees once again if for arguments sake all the arab israelis were to vote for labor at the next election you can rest assured that the number of arab mks and cabinet members would increase proportionately to the power shift not their party them as individuals even when they belong to nice peaceful zionist mainstream parties they are not welcome arabs are excluded on ficitious security grounds which are just an excuse it sure looks like racism to me you are overlooking the fact that they wield political power as individuals based upon a wider collective power base arabs are excluded from cabinet even when they do the things you suggest because they are arabs unless of course you have a better reason i am happy to listen to any good reason why a leftist jew is less of a security risk than a leftist arab from the same party look at the present cabinet the reasoning i see at work is purely political as far as security goes i think that some serious gaffs were made by right wing jews as well e g sharon shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninja of the skies cambridge ma
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article may iastate edu jakhan iastate edu javed ahmed khan writes in article c x m ejf news cis umn edu prabhak giga cs umn edu satya prabhakar writes mohamed s sadek writes i like what mr joseph biden had to say yesterday in the senate condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans and calling that moral rape he went on to say that the reason for that is out right religious bigotry actually this strife in yugoslavia goes back a long way bosinan muslims in collaboration with the nazis did to serbians after the first world war what serbs are doing to muslims now this is not a fresh case of ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga of intense mutual hatred destruction not taking sides in this perpetual war does not amount to religious bigotry it could just be helplessness with regards to bringing peace to a region that does not even know the meaning of the word i dont think you re correct here there have been no reports of the bosnians muslims supporting the nazis in their genocide against the serbians the fact is that the croat govt using their secret police called the ustache i think were the prime agents of the nazis in yugoslavia against the serbs th ss divison made primerily of bosnian muslim volunteers did quite a job in the former yugoslavia during wwii these folks are now in their s s makes me wonder how many of them occupy positions of power in bosnia s goverment
talk.politics.mideast	re please show up in washington dc for bosnia may th in article c x y xd cbfsb cb att com mohamed s sadek sadek cbnewsg cb att com writes i like what mr joseph biden had to say yesterday in the senate condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans and calling that moral rape he went on to say that the reason for that is out right religious bigotry mohamed biden spoke well then there was john major the architect of the betrayal of bosnian muslims to genocide he basically has given yet another green light to hvo ustashe and mladic chetnik serial killers rapists and plunderers to continue their genocide against bosnian muslims but major met with mr rushdie and said it was unacceptable that iran should have a death decree on him while i disagree personally with fetwas against hack writers like rushdie it only helps them sell more books i find it interesting that mr major finds the genocide of two million muslims in bosnia acceptable but a threat against one single popular british writer unacceptable michael sells department of religion haverford college haverford pa
talk.politics.mideast	re please show up in washington dc for bosnia may th subject re europe vs muslim bosnians from satya prabhakar prabhak giga cs umn edu date wed may gmt in article c x m ejf news cis umn edu satya prabhakar prabhak giga cs umn edu writes mohamed s sadek writes i like what mr joseph biden had to say yesterday in the senate condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans and calling that moral rape he went on to say that the reason for that is out right religious bigotry actually this strife in yugoslavia goes back a long way bosinan muslims in collaboration with the nazis did to serbians after the first world war what serbs are doing to muslims now this kind of racialist generalization is utterly inappropriate some bosnian muslims cooperated with the nazis in world war other bosnian muslims risked their lifes to hide jews from the nazis and ustashe and those jews who survived the war remember that in fact the jewish leader in sarajevo has remained there saying he wants to repay the debt to the bosnian muslims that saved so many jewish lives in ww similarly some serbs are doing to muslims now this is a group of serial killers rapists and thieves who have control of the vast yugoslav army arsenal many other serbs oppose these atrocities as one of serbian heritage who condemns emphatically the genocide being carried out against muslims by both hvo and mladic forces i condemn your generalization about bosnian muslims and about serbs this is not a fresh case of ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga of intense mutual hatred destruction every place on earth is the scene of a saga of mutual hatred and destruction the holocaust was not a fresh case it was another chapter in a year history of attacks on jews in europe that didn t make it acceptable and balkan history does not make the genocide against bosnian muslims acceptable not taking sides in this perpetual war does not amount to religious bigotry standing by and allowing well armed criminals to slaughter bosnian muslim civilians while enforcing an arms embargo against the bosnian muslims is not only religious bigotry it is direct complicity in mass murder it could just be helplessness with regards to bringing peace to a region that does not even know the meaning of the word you tell us a region on earth that does have a long history of war nato is the largest military police force in the world it was not helpless it could have stopped the carnage a year ago satya prabhakar regards mike michael sells department of religion haverford college haverford pa
talk.politics.mideast	re please show up in washington dc for bosnia may th in article sreod k venus haverford edu michael sells m sells haverford edu writes subject re europe vs muslim bosnians from satya prabhakar prabhak giga cs umn edu date wed may gmt in article c x m ejf news cis umn edu satya prabhakar prabhak giga cs umn edu writes mohamed s sadek writes i like what mr joseph biden had to say yesterday in the senate condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans and calling that moral rape he went on to say that the reason for that is out right religious bigotry actually this strife in yugoslavia goes back a long way bosinan muslims in collaboration with the nazis did to serbians after the first world war what serbs are doing to muslims now this kind of racialist generalization is utterly inappropriate some bosnian muslims cooperated with the nazis in world war other bosnian muslims risked their lifes to hide jews from the nazis and ustashe and those jews who survived the war remember that in fact the jewish leader in sarajevo has remained there saying he wants to repay the debt to the bosnian muslims that saved so many jewish lives in ww similarly some serbs are doing to muslims now this is a group of serial killers rapists and thieves who have control of the vast yugoslav army arsenal many other serbs oppose these atrocities as one of serbian heritage who condemns emphatically the genocide being carried out against muslims by both hvo and mladic forces i condemn your generalization about bosnian muslims and about serbs this is not a fresh case of ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga of intense mutual hatred destruction every place on earth is the scene of a saga of mutual hatred and destruction the holocaust was not a fresh case it was another chapter in a year history of attacks on jews in europe that didn t make it acceptable and balkan history does not make the genocide against bosnian muslims acceptable not taking sides in this perpetual war does not amount to religious bigotry standing by and allowing well armed criminals to slaughter bosnian muslim civilians while enforcing an arms embargo against the bosnian muslims is not only religious bigotry it is direct complicity in mass murder it could just be helplessness with regards to bringing peace to a region that does not even know the meaning of the word you tell us a region on earth that does have a long history of war nato is the largest military police force in the world it was not helpless it could have stopped the carnage a year ago satya prabhakar regards mike michael sells department of religion haverford college haverford pa
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article may iastate edu jakhan iastate edu javed ahmed khan writes in article c x m ejf news cis umn edu prabhak giga cs umn edu satya prabhakar writes actually this strife in yugoslavia goes back a long way bosinan muslims in collaboration with the nazis did to serbians after the first world war what serbs are doing to muslims now this is not a fresh case of i dont think you re correct here there have been no reports of the bosnians muslims supporting the nazis in their genocide against the serbians the fact is that the croat govt using their secret police called the ustache i think were the prime agents of the nazis in yugoslavia against the serbs actually just after the first world war many muslims were killed by serbs under serbian led regime between the two world wars many croats were also killed especially during the dictatorship introduced on jan some croats formed a resistance movement ustashas insurgents and were forced into exile to fascist italy which sheltered them in exile they practiced a terrorist approach to liberating croatia while croats in croatia followed the approach of peaceful negotiations under the leadership of vladko macek after the axis powers took control in the second world war vladko macek refused to collaborate so ustashas were brought in to run the newly formed puppet state this state included both croatia and bosnia herzegovina and its ideology saw muslims as the best croats flowers of croatian people some muslims in bosnia herzegovina therefore joined ustashas however even more others did not they joined tito s partisans the ustashas membership peaked at less than of croat and muslim population of that area at that time after wwii muslims were still considered a religious minority descended from croats or serbs who converted to islam centuries ago but in it was decided that forcing muslims to declare their nationality as either serbs or croats is not a good policy dobrica cosic the current president of the rump yugoslavia was strongly opposed and sought to prevent the category muslim in an ethnic sense from appearing on the next census he was criticized and expelled from the party so since that time bosnian muslims are considered a separate nationality although some still deny this and insist that they choose either serb or croat nationality sincerely josip
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians my recollection of history documentary books is slitely different it is my understanding that croats were allies of germany during wwii while serbs had sided with russia as a result serbs did take a beating from croats not bosnian moslems while germany had the upper hand even today russians consider call serbs as their slovac brothers this is one of the issues involved in the u n s lack of active intervention against serbs as for the bosnian moslems i have not heard of any alliance with germany or russia in recent history therefore i am curious if they did or were able to treat other parties in this conflict with same brutallity as they are getting it today in the past history regards ramin moshiri
talk.politics.mideast	re israel an apartheid state in article may das harvard edu adam endor uucp adam shostack writes which was my point by converting to another religion i do not loose my cultural identity i just loose my religious identification i disagree by converting to another religion you certainly do change your cultural identity and lose that part of you which was jewish i would change one of the many parts that define my cultural identity if i loose a leg it might change my personality but i do not stop being a human being even more when someone gets a baboon heart that person is still human to be a part or not of the jeish nation is defined by my culture and not by my religion actually if i am an atheist which is in fact like converting into a non jewish in terms of religion i am still considered as part of the jewish nation no there is a serious cultural and religios difference between renouncing the jewish god and accepting a new one thou shall have no other gods before me conversion is a violation of this atheism you might be able to wiggle around with not really that is what differenciates agnostics from atheists as an atheist i do not believe there is a god nor do i believe that there ever was one so those commandments have no meaning to me also there are a lot of ideas that have no meaning to me the idea of a chosen people the idea of a given right to the land of israel the idea of keeping kosher the idea of opposing intermarriage the idea of having a torah that was inspired by god etc by being an atheist i cannot support the idea of the jewish nation as defined by a religious principle or based on a religious identity for me religion is just another piece in what constitutes the cultural identity of the jewish people i believe that as a people with a cultural identity they constitute a nation and have the same right as any other people in the world to have their own state the same right as the armenians have as the palestinians have as the french have and as anybody else have i cannot say that by accepting a different god someone has lost all cultural identification adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu aap
talk.politics.mideast	re israel an apartheid state in article spam maths adelaide edu au jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au joseph askew writes in article smllm m cville srv wam umd edu aap wam umd edu alberto adolfo pinkas writes i consider that defining the belonging to a nation that claims the right to have a state based on religious belief is a form of racism although i don t want to muddy the waters unnecessarily i disagree any discrimination based on religion is not and cannot be racist unless the sole qualification for religious membership is racial in the same way in which antisemite means anti jewish and not anti all persons of who are semite a form of racism means a form of segregation against all those who are different based on the religious identification aap joseph askew
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article c x y xd cbfsb cb att com sadek cbnewsg cb att com mohamed s sadek writes i like what mr joseph biden had to say yesterday in the senate condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans and calling that moral rape it is easy for sen biden to say that when there are no us troops in zepa or srebinica or sarejevo the existing un policy may certaining be wrong but the us wants to dictate policy and make europe responsible for the consequences of that policy bosnia is a big enough problem for the us to preach about what other countries should be doing with their forces but its forces are safely tucked away at home in the us gerald
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article srespinnsua mojo eng umd edu josip eng umd edu josip loncaric writes under such conditions it is very easy for serbs to play a divide and conquer game and to get the muslims and croats who have strong common it is the serbs who were divided when croatia and bosnia hercegovina attempted to secede from yugoslavia ripping more than serbs and their property out of yugoslavia the croatian and muslim nations had the right to secede not the republics additionally the secessions were to be negotiated which would probably have required international mediation instead the secessions were illegal unilateral and acts of war against yugoslavia and those who did not want to be ripped out of yugoslavia by the secessions nick
talk.politics.mideast	the enemy within the enemy within by robert i friedman the village voice may vol xxxviii no how the anti defamation league turned the notion of human rights on its head spying on progress ives and funneling information to law enforcement roy bullock wanted to be a spy since he was a teenager in indiana and read i led three lives herbert philbrick s cold war saga of penetrating the communist party for the fbi philbrick had become an american folk hero in the s for building dossiers on unsuspecting colleagues it was a time when hollywood produced more than films portraying the informer as the quintessential american patriot in boston where philbrick led three lives as an fbi informant communist party member and private citizen the mayor even proclaimed a herbert philbrick day and presented the spy with a plaque for bullock a shy young man who was coming to terms with his homosexuality in the straight arrow s the life of a double agent was the perfect way to hide his lifestyle while fighting the communist menace i was fascinated with herbert philbrick bullock recently told federal investigators and so i thought i would try to infiltrate the communist part in i went to the sixth world youth and student festival in moscow with the american delegation i gave them the fbi a full report on it when i returned along with some photos i took of some soviet military vehicles bullock was hooked for the next two years he worked as an unpaid informant for the fbi but he found his true calling when he became a paid spy for the anti defamation league in now his activities are at the center of the biggest domestic spy scandal in recent american history a scandal that may end with the adl s criminal indictment in san francisco over a year period he compiled computer files for the adl on individuals and more than groups of all political stripes including the naacp the rainbow coalition aclu the american indian movement the center for investigative reporting pacifica act up palestinian and arab groups sandinista solidarity groups americans for peace now and anti apartheid organizations bullock who even spied on the recently slain south african nationalist chris hani when he visited the bay area in april sold many of his adl files on anti apartheid activists to south african intelligence meanwhile between and the adl paid him nearly using a prominent beverly hills attorney as a conduit in order to conceal its financial relationship with bullock last month police raided adl offices in los angeles and san francisco as well as bullock s home confiscating computer files and boxes of documents according to court records bullock s files contained the driver s license and vehicle registration information in addition to criminal histories on individuals much of which was allegedly stolen from the fbi and police computers bullock told the fbi that copies of virtually everything in his computer data base had been given to the san francisco adl office based on the evidence says inspector ron roth in a police affidavit i believe that roy bullock and adl had numerous peace officers supplying them with confidential criminal and dmv information what s more the san francisco d a is investigating bullock for tapping phones accessing answering machines and assuming false identities to infiltrate organizations documents seized from bullock s home also contained evidence of his forays into bay area trash cans he had the names and phone numbers of employees at the christic institute in san francisco as well as telephone message slips to staff members including names and phone numbers of callers office correspondence listing the names and return addresses of the senders and inter office memos he also had receipts from christic institute s bank accounts at wells fargo and eureka federal savings as well as itemized canceled checks with the names of the payees the dates and amounts bullock even knew the balance in the christic institute s checking account investigations by the fbi and police in san francisco have revealed that the adl has shared at least some of its spy gathering material with israeli government officials what s more israel apparently used tips from the adl to detain palestinian americans who travelled there the adl was established in new york city in to defend jews and later other minority groups from discrimination it led the fight against racist and fascist groups like the ku klux klan and the american nazi party and in the s championed the civil rights movement but there was also a darker side in the late s the adl spied on leftists and communists and shared investigative files with the house committee on un american activities and the fbi the adl swung sharply to the right during the reagan administration becoming a bastion of neoconservatism to irwin suall a repentant trotskyite who heads the adl s powerful fact finding department the real danger to jews is posed not by the right but by a coalition of leftists blacks and arabs who in his view threaten the fabric of democracy in america as well as the state of israel in the tradition of his ideological soulmate william casey suall directed the adl s vast network of informants who were given code names like scumbag ironside and for a spy reportedly posing as a priest in atlanta flipper for years journalists and liberal members of the jewish community knew the adl spied on right wing hate groups as long as the targets were anti semitic organizations like the liberty lobby and lyndon larouche no one seemed to be particularly troubled but the bullock case reveals that the adl also spied on groups that have a nonviolent and progressive orientation this apparent massive violation of civil liberties may end with the adl s criminal indictment in san francisco where the investigation began the human rights group faces possible criminal prosecution on as many as felony counts including an indictment for gaining illegal access to police computers says one source close to the west coast investigation it is per cent certain that the adl will be indicted in the wake of the san francisco investigation police probes of adl spying are spreading to other parts of the country we have received numerous complaints about adl spying says sam adams a spokesperson for the mayor s office in portland oregon on april the harlem based black united fund of new york and african american self help group that bullock allegedly spied on wrote district attorney robert morgenthau requesting an immediate investigation of the adl the adl s actions cause great concern as it is a direct and flagrant violation at minimum of our civil rights we call upon you to join with the district attorney of san francisco to bring and end to this latest form of mccarthyism gerald mckelvey a spokesperson for morgenthau s office says we have no evidence before us that warrants any sort of investigation mckelvey adds that morgenthau offered to assist the fbi and the san francisco d a s office on their pending investigation they have not so far asked for our assistance the adl acknowledges sharing information on violence prone groups with law enforcement officials it also admits to maintaining extensive files on a wide variety of organizations but says in a two page press release the vast majority of adl s files are composed of news clips magazine articles books journals and other documents adl has made it clear that it does not and will not countenance violations of the law on the part of anyone connected with the agency and the process by which the league gathers information is presently under review to insure that no laws are being violated that s what the adl says for public consumption but morale is so low that its employees complain of sleepless nights and crying fits and even as other jewish groups circle the wagons around the adl in a show of solidarity many do so holding their noses more than a few jewish officials privately say the adl has to decide whether it is a human rights group or a secret police agency the adl is regarded both inside the jewish community and outside the jewish community as the definitive source of information on anti semitism and extremist groups says daniel levitas the former executive director of the center for democratic renewal an atlanta based group that monitors anti semitism racism and hate groups one of the things this scandal has done is that it has completely tainted the adl s credibility and reputation with regard to its objectivity this scandal is going to be a devastating blow to the jewish community at large because people regard the adl as synonymous with american jewry bullock s talents as a snoop and his extreme conservatism meshed well with the adl s cold war worldview in he moved to southern california where he became an adl spy for a week bullock almost always used his real name when snooping although he once called himself elmer fink when corresponding with supporters of alabama governor george wallace bullock provided the adl s office in los angeles with written reports which were transmitted to fact finding department head irwin suall according to court records under suall s stewardship fact finding department had become the adl s heart and soul located at adl national headquarters across from the united nations the department had assembled a vast library on hate groups culling material from publications speeches and informants reports bullock was more than adept at leading a double life not long after moving to california he ingratiated himself with a woman in the john birch society who helped him gain access to the group s boston office there he found a file the right wingers were keeping on the adl the discovery gave rise to speculation in the adl new york office that they had somehow been penetrated by the birchers bullock focused almost exclusively on right wing extremist groups until the early s when adl l a head milton sinn was replaced by harvey schechter who encouraged him to target the left as well a few years later bullock moved to the castro district in san francisco where he posed as an art dealer and adl fact finder who had infiltrated the local arab community had just been exposed when the ensuing scandal died down bullock was ordered by the adl to penetrate the arabs the adl was especially concerned about the american arab anti discrimination committee founded by the former south dakota senator james abourezk to combat arab bashing in a page out of the cia s dirty tricks handbook on penetration and destabilization bullock joined the adc and then recruited nazis into the group apparently trying to discredit it according to published reports in the adl sent bullock to attend the national association of arab americans annual congress in washington according to court documents bullock was told to find the source of the group s funds bullock was unable to follow the money but he did such a good job at ingratiating himself that he was appointed to head a naaa delegation that visited congress member nancy pelosi it s not surprising that the adl penetrated arab organizations but only acute paranoia explains their interest in groups like act up as far as bullock was concerned gay groups in san francisco were heavily infiltrated by what he called gay left revolutionaries prompting him to write about their activities for the adl bullock soon expanded his horizons moving into the shadowy realm of foreign espionage after richard hirschhaut the head of adl s san francisco office introduced him to thomas gerard in gerard was then a detective with the san francisco police department s intelligence unit gerard had worked as a demolitions expert for the cia in el salvador in the early s where he apparently had more than a passing interest in right wing death squads police searching gerard s briefcase found extensive cia literature about torture and interrogation photos of blindfolded and chained men as well as passports made out to gerard in different names including thomas clouseau from a remote jungle island redoubt in the philippines where he fled last november gerard told the los angeles times that he will blow the lid off the cia s involvement with latin american death squads if he is indicted in the adl spy case after their very first encounter in the adl office gerard and bullock had lunch at mcdonald s i liked tom right off bullock later told a san francisco police investigator whose report of the interrogation was obtained by the voice tom is a very charming roguish character with a great deal of integrity let me say here i consider tom gerard one of the finest policemen i ve ever worked with absolutely honest capable intelligent and percent american before long bullock was providing gerard with confidential adl reports on various groups and individuals in turn gerard gave bullock classified police intelligence files on local arab americans skinheads and others bullock told the fbi that gerard s material ended up in his adl reports i would say percent of the data that i got was name address and sometimes physical description criminal history very rarely bullock told investigators gerard also gave bullock a chart that outlined a vast network of bay area arab american businessmen and organizations that allegedly has ties to middle east terror groups as well as surveillance photos of arab americans receiving weapons training overseas bullock claims that u s customs in new york gave gerard the photos it was understood that bullock would be very careful with what he did with the information gerard gave him and that bullock would not release it except to the adl or other law enforcement officers says an fbi report there was nothing unusual about bullock s cozy relationship with law enforcement by the mid s the adl was swapping files with hundreds of official friends the organization s euphemism for u s law enforcement and intelligence sources the adl s relationship with the fbi s counterterrorism office was so close that adl s reports on arab american group s covert ties to middle east terrorists were must reading it s no accident that police found a classified fbi report entitled popular front for the liberation of palestine pflp new york area while searching the adl s san francisco office in adl spooks investigated seven palestinians and a kenyan studying in california universities on student visas when the adl discovered they were disseminating pflp literature it informed the fbi which in turn took the case to the immigration and naturalization service after the ins ordered the students deported as subversives adl regional director david lehrer gloated in the los angeles times about his office s cooperation with law enforcement although he s backpedaling now the los angeles deportation is still under appeal while the adl worked quietly with america s top cops it enjoyed similar ties with israel s spy agencies a charge that adl leaders vehemently deny but as early as july adl director benjamin epstein wrote to b nai b rith executive secretary saul joftes requesting for his investigators our information he boasted to joftes in addition to being essential for our own operations has been of great value and service to both the united states department and the israeli government all data have been made available to both countries with full knowledge to each that we are the source in the adl came under fbi scrutiny in the wake of the pollard spy scandal while assigned to the navy s anti terrorist alert center where he had access to the most closely guarded u s secrets jonathan pollard stole thousands of pages of classified documents for israel which according to federal prosecutors could fill a room the size of a large closet ten feet by six feet by six feet pollard s handler was avi sella an israeli air force colonel whose wife worked for the new york adl as a lawyer pollard later wrote to friends that a prominent adl leader was deeply involved in the israeli spy operation while there is no proof that anyone connected with the adl was involved with pollard there is evidence that the adl freely passes information to israeli intelligence in march the fbi interrogated david gurvitz an adl fact finder in los angeles until when he was fired by suall for illegally obtaining police information to use against a rival at the simon wiesenthal center the fbi pointedly asked gurvitz if he had ever transmitted information to israel gurvitz admitted that in he had learned from a law enforcement contact that michael elias allegedly a member of a radical plo faction was scheduled to travel from san francisco international airport en route to haifa gurvitz phoned the deputy israeli consul general in l a with the information later the same day according to a page fbi interview of gurvitz obtained by the voice gurvitz was called back by another man who said he was from the israeli consulate and who asked gurvitz to repeat the information about elias gurvitz did not get this man s name but their conversation was in hebrew so gurvitz felt confident the man was actually an israeli consulate official among the names of private citizens that police found in adl files in san francisco was mohammed jarad a year old chicago resident who was arrested in israel on january for allegedly distributing hundreds of thousands of dollars to hamas the large islamic fundamentalist movement in the occupied territories the chicago adl office runs at least three undercover informants who work with official friends in local law enforcement according to documents released by the san francisco d a and sources close to the adl given these facts arab american groups surmise that the adl has passed information on jarad to israeli intelligence one technique used by the adl to monitor the large arab american community in the midwest was to scan the local arab press for funeral notices according to sources familiar with the practice adl investigators in unmarked vans videotaped the palestinian funerals which sometimes turned into plo rallies palestinians have been detained at ben gurion airport simply on the basis of having been filmed attending a funeral in chicago according to suhail miari the executive director of the united holy land fund whose cousin was an arab member of israel s knesset shortly after jarad was arrested the israeli government announced that hamas was being run from america with money and operational instructions relayed by courier or fax israel s charges were played up on the front page of the new york times according to well placed sources yehudit barsky an adl fact finder in new york worked closely with israeli officials on this campaign of vilification introducing friendly reporters to official friends in chicago law enforcement barsky who is fluent in arabic prepared an adl report about how hamas is funded in america she identified the dallas based islamic association for palestine in north america as the front organization for hamas in the u s a its infrastructure functions as an interlocking network of organizations small businesses and individual activists says the february adl report which outlines the organization s development its activities on u s college campuses and its metamorphosis during the gulf war it also traces hamas fundraising through a plethora of alleged front groups from plainfield indiana to culver city california it is doubtful that barsky could have compiled such sophisticated data without the help of official friends and adl spies barsky refused to comment but she used to talk to greg slabodkin as many as three times a week when he was an opposition researcher for aipac whose spy operation was disclosed last summer in the voice the level of cooperation was very close slabodkin said during a recent phone conservation from israel where he is in graduate school if we felt our files were lacking we contacted the adl when sha wan jabarin a year old palestinian human rights worker in the occupied territories won a reebok human rights award in slabodkin recalls that barsky faxed aipac the man s entire police file which she had obtained from the israeli embassy jabarin had been arrested numerous times in israel and once confessed to being a member of the plo after having been severely tortured jabarin who received a short jail term became an amnesty international prisoner of conscience of course to aipac and the adl jabarin was a terrorist slabodkin who was ordered to keep tabs on him when he was in the u s to receive his award called a representative of al haq the palestinian human rights group that employed jabarin to obtain his itinerary aipac even opened a file on musician jackson browne who presented jabarin with the reebok award while the adl may be able to rationalize its close monitoring of arabs and even left wing gay revolutionaries it has a far harder time explaining its obsession with spying on anti apartheid activists david gurvitz told the fbi that when he started working as a fact finder for the adl in l a in march adl files already bulged with information about the israel south african connection and anti apartheid groups gurvitz confirmed that the adl did routinely collect information on persons engaged in anti apartheid activities in the united states says the fbi report while gurvitz said there were files in the l a adl office dating to the s he estimated the oldest material on anti apartheid activities dates back to the late s paralleling begin s rise to power in israel and a deepening of ties between the jewish state and south africa in about august says the report of the fbi s march interview with gurvitz an anti apartheid demonstration was held at the south african consulate in los angeles participating in the demonstration were the los angeles student coalition and the socialist workers party gurvitz went to two demonstration planning sessions and a subsequent demonstration he wrote a report for the adl on each of the planning sessions and on the demonstration copies of the reports were disseminated to bullock among others in care of the san francisco adl office in bullock learned that the consul general of the south african consulate in los angeles would be speaking in las vegas at a meeting organized by willis carto the head of the anti semitic liberty lobby suspecting that the consul general did not know who willis carto is says the fbi report bullock suggested to gerard that they might want to warn the south africans gerard agreed and informed the consul general who canceled his appearance a few months later gerard phoned bullock and told him a south african intelligence officer wanted to meet them during a rendezvous in a hotel near fisherman s wharf the south african said he was interested in acquiring information on american anti apartheid activists the south african who called himself mr humphries also asked for information about groups that were advocating divestments gerard who was present throughout the meeting says the fbi report told humphries that he gerard had been employed by the cia humphries offered to pay bullock per month in exchange for information bullock noted that much of the information humphries said he wanted was already in the possession of bullock and the adl between and bullock sold information to south african intelligence receiving steady raises which he split evenly with gerard bullock said it was his impression though gerard never explicitly told him so and bullock never asked that gerard may have been telling the cia about his and bullock s contacts with the south africans says the fbi report gerard had said he knew the cia resident agent in san francisco once after gerard dropped bullock off at bullock s residence following a meeting with louie who replaced humphries as their handler gerard said he was going to go to the san francisco cia office al the while gerard may have been tasking bullock for the cia bullock recalled that once after he had met gerard bullock went to chicago illinois to conduct an investigation on behalf of the adl says the fbi report the target of the investigation was a group called the palestine human rights campaign bullock learned that a woman name deleted was transporting money between the plo or the pflp and the united states bullock told this to gerard gerard later told bullock that gerard s guy at the cia would like to know more gerard asked bullock if bullock would go back to chicago to gather more information on the palestine human rights campaign bullock however never did go back gerard also seems to have had a close relationship with mossad which may have started in when he went on an adl junket to israel the adl frequently sponsors trips for american law enforcement officials to israel where they are wined and dined and meet their counterparts in various intelligence agencies according to an affidavit by san francisco police inspector roth the all expense paid trip to israel was more or less a thank you gift and a liaison gesture by the adl to continue the close relationships it has with specific law enforcement officers from the united states gerard may have liked what he saw in israel a short time after travelling there he went to addis ababa where he helped with mossad s rescue of ethiopian jews as gerard s relationship with south africa deepened he talked more openly about his exploits in the cia bullock recalled gerard mentioning that he had been in algeria on cia business and that gerard discussed the plo and safehouses says the fbi report to this louie once responded that israeli intelligence had determined that the plo and the african national congress were cooperating gerard also spoke of having travelled with the cia to afghanistan louie also told gerard and bullock about his adventures inside south africa as an intelligence officer both gerard and louie traded war stories and regaled each other and bullock with tales of narrow scrapes although there is still much mystery about what triggered law enforcement s investigation of the adl it was probably the theft of a classified fbi report on the nation of islam from the fbi s san francisco office police armed with search warrants recovered the report in the adl san francisco office gurvitz says he had sent a copy of it to mira boland the director of the adl s fact finding division in washington d c boland was preparing an op ed piece for the washington times in which she argued that the nation of islam should not receive federal funds for the reconstruction of l a because the group is anti semitic and violence prone boland who had arranged the adl police junket to israel attended by gerard testified in a criminal trial in roanoke virginia that she had worked for the cia for months and later was a subcontractor for the defense department before joining the adl during the trial boland admitted to sharing information with a cia official at an invitation only adl conference after he was questioned by the fbi last fall gerard fled to the philippines which has no extradition treaty with america gerard is believed to have supplied information from police computers not only to the adl but to israel and south africa as well the san francisco examiner reported that gerard may be charged with violating federal espionage laws although bullock worked for the adl for years and irwin suall praised him in a july memo as our number one investigator the adl now argues that he was a rogue agent in its own defense the adl also asserts that its fact finders operate no differently than journalists after all ask adl officials don t journalists keep files but the difference between the practice of journalism and the adl s method of gathering information couldn t be more striking journalists place information in the public domain where they are held accountable for falsehoods distortions and libel and for the most part journalists don t share their investigative files with foreign and domestic police agencies the adl has no such inhibition because many of its files are not open to public scrutiny false information collected by ideologically biased researchers cannot be corrected once a proud human rights group the adl has become the jewish thought police the adl says it s a human rights group not just for jews but for everyone says chip berlet a highly respected researcher at the massachusetts based political research associates which monitors right wing extremist groups that s fine but it can t do that and spy on palestinians it s blatantly unethical and frankly immoral my argument to people is that the adl wears four hats each of the hats independently is appropriate it is a broad based human rights group that looks at the broad issues of prejudice and discrimination it is a group that defends jews against defamation entirely noble nothing wrong with that hat it is a group whose leaders at least consistently defend the actions of israel against its critics which again is entirely appropriate and it is a group that maintains an information sharing arrangement with law enforcement again there is nothing wrong for a group to do that but you can t do all four it is impossible to do all four and not violate the bounds of ethics there s a built in conflict of interest if you wear all four hats adl national director abraham foxman apparently sees no such conflict in a september letter to the voice foxman complained adl has a proud year record of fighting bigotry and promoting civil rights and constitutional freedoms any imputation of an effort or motive on our part to smear or stifle the free speech of anyone is false and baseless throughout his pieces on aipac s spying friedman describes the dissemination of information as if it were slander and the existence of files as a token of mccarthyite inclination the depiction is misleading in several ways virtually every journalist academic politician and organization keeps files on subjects they deem relevant tracing the logic of friedman s reckless charges the library of congress is tantamount to the kgb moreover disseminating the public record of a public figure is neither defamation nor mccarthyism but many believe the adl is increasingly in the defamation business ask jesse jackson james abourezk or the leaders of the new jewish agenda all past targets of adl smears at the same time the adl exonerated the fascist world anti communist league which assisted ronald reagan s covert war against nicaragua a policy endorsed by adl leaders in the early s researchers russ bellant and berlet asked to meet fact finding head irwin suall to discuss their work on anti semite lyndon larouche our view then of irwin suall was that he was this really terrific investigator says berlet so we introduce ourselves say what we are up to and suall leans back in his chair and basically runs down a dossier on each of us about what our political activities are who we work with what organizations we belong to obviously he was just trying to blow us away and he succeeds admirably we were just sitting there with our mouths open feeling very uncomfortable and then he leans forward and says the right wing isn t the problem the left wing is the problem the soviet union is the biggest problem in the world for jews it s the american left that is the biggest threat to american jews you re on the wrong track you re part of the problem we were stunned i was virtually in tears this is not how i perceived myself we basically stumbled out of there in a daze letters response to friedman s article the village voice may vol xxxviii no a league of his own robert i friedman s assault on the anti defamation league the anti defamation league is spying on you may demonstrates that he has an axe to grind and his own prejudiced and biased agenda to promote it also demonstrates that concern for accurate reporting is far down on his list the story is replete with inaccuracies innuendos and outright falsehoods and conveys a picture of adl so divorced from reality as to be farcical friedman is even wrong on such basic easily determined facts as where adl was founded chicago not new york and the building in which adl s san francisco office is located not the jewish community federation building pictured adl has done the work of fighting haters for years without spying on organizations or individuals and with profound respect for the law our mission is to monitor and expose those who are anti jewish racist anti democratic and violence prone and we monitor them primarily by reading publications and attending public meetings through the years we have published scores of reports on anti semitism emanating from both the left and the right in fact although friedman s bias leads him to assume the contrary adl s primary concern is still the far right because extremist organizations are highly secretive sometimes adl can learn of their activities only by using undercover sources friedman s hyperbole notwithstanding these sources function in a manner directly analogous to investigative journalists some have performed great service to the american people for example by uncovering the existence of right wing extremist paramilitary training camps with no recognition and at considerable personal risk the information adl obtains is placed in the public domain and through the years adl has established a reputation for accurate reporting friedman s article by contrast contains so much misinformation that it would take an article equally as long to set the record straight a few examples he states that an adl leader was deeply involved in the jonathan pollard israeli spy operation and that pollard s handler s wife worked for the new york adl as a lawyer not true friedman also states adl investigators in unmarked vans videotaped palestinian funerals not true elsewhere he asserts that adl was obsessed with spying on anti apartheid activists again not true we could go on and on and of course friedman does not reveal his sources the distortion games friedman plays when he mentions numbers further reveal his lack of objectivity when it comes to how much adl paid roy bullock a week as an independent contractor not an employee an important distinction friedman also fails to make he includes the zeros inviting the reader to see a large number by contrast when he observes that adl paid bullock nearly between and he chooses not to point out that amounts to little more than a year hardly an excessive sum what is accurate about friedman s story is chip berlet s description of adl s four hats yes adl looks at broad issues of prejudice and discrimination yes adl defends israel against critics and yes adl maintains an information sharing relationship with law enforcement regarding extremist activities and hate crimes we see no conflict in these four activities and we believe most voice readers won t either abraham foxman national director anti defamation league manhattan robert i friedman replies for the adl to compare itself to investigative journalists is absurd journalists don t spy on arabs and anti apartheid activists and then freely pass their files to south african and israeli intelligence but according to police the confessions of two paid adl investigators buttressed by pages of court documents and interviews the adl does indeed the adl spies on groups that are neither anti semitic nor violent police confiscated adl files on hundreds of mainstream groups ranging from act up to peace now respected intellectuals and middle east scholars who disagree with the adl s political views have ended up on adl blacklists their reputations smeared private organizations have no business paying operatives inside police departments or having spies says an april editorial in the st louis post dispatch condemning adl spying on april police armed with search warrants raided adl offices in san francisco and l a after concluding that adl employees were apparently less than truthful in voluntarily turning over documents during an earlier search according to san francisco police inspector ron roth s sworn affidavit roth also asserts that bullock was a paid employee for the adl if so by failing to pay taxes on of income paid to bullock the adl could face a total of felony counts according to court papers the adl may also face felony charges for illegally obtaining confidential information from police computers as for errors the adl was founded in chicago and moved to new york in but it was an original tenant in the san francisco building shown in the voice photo moving out a few months ago i never wrote that an adl leader was deeply involved in the pollard israeli spy operation i reported that pollard himself made the charge and in court papers pollard s own lawyer said that the wife of pollard s handler worked for the adl if i have a bias it is on the side of the first and fourth amendments
talk.politics.mideast	re please show up in washington dc for bosnia may th in article sredr b venus haverford edu michael sells m sells haverford edu writes i find it interesting that mr major finds the genocide of two million muslims in bosnia acceptable now you are actually claiming that muslims have been killed in b h please substantiate this utterly ridiculous claim nick
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in a previous article sadek cbnewsg cb att com mohamed s sa i the senate condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans and calling that moral rape he went on to say that the reason for that is out right religious bigotry mohamed what has he got to say about the carnage and genocide in our own sudan the two scenarios must be viewed from the same perspective or don t you think so well methinks no flames intended oguocha mohamed
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article may alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes it is easy for sen biden to say that when there are no us troops in zepa or srebinica or sarejevo the existing un policy may certaining be wrong but the us wants to dictate policy and make europe responsible for the consequences of that policy bosnia is a big enough problem for the us to preach about what other countries should be doing with their forces but its forces are safely tucked away at home in the us gerald look nobody asked those countries about their un forces to be on the ground they can take their forces which are incomponent and ineffective at the first place and let whoever are willing to do the job what it takes how anyone can defend this stinking un force on the ground who let the bosnnian pm yanked out from the un vehicle and being shot by the serbian military how anyone can defend this un force who are just watching the shelling on cities and towns everyday how anyone can defend and say those stinking un forces being effective when bosnian had almost children casualties between age groups i think talking about the current un forces to bosnian muslims is just an insult to their casualties i think senator biden said it all what has to be said on this issue europe is a sad place to criticize human rights in anywhere in this world like biden said they are the bigots when it comes to cultural difference and minorty closer to their home because they get rid of their minorities long long time ago starting in th centuries and they let adolph to take care of the rest in th century but he was much more naughty than they expected because he dared to step many toes so why spoil the good thing now when serbs doing today what they were thinking the same yesterday c akgun
talk.politics.mideast	pease without justice cann t last re last opportunity for peace in article apr nuscc nus sg eng nusunix nus sg ram vikash tiwary writes as the the peace talks resume in the middle east i would humbly like to make some personal observations as to their prospects of success or failure and what s at stake the present talks were suspended for over months after the israeli expulsion of more the palestinians for alleged links with the extremist islamic organisation hamas the future of the talks was in the balance and their continuance was only guaranteed after some concessions by israel now that all the parties are back to the negotiating table the stakes as i see is are indeed high and the future stability of the region and perhaps the world is in the balance the resumption of the talks was followed by a goodwill gesture by israel involving the return of exiled palestinians from jordan to the occupied territories these however were not the palestinians expelled in december the group constituted intellectuals and professionals who had been exiled after the war for the political stand which was then regarded as dangerous the choice of these arabs who support the peace talks illustrates the dilemma now faced by israel its erstwhile arch enemies ie plo and its backers now seem willing to talk peace while a new wave of islamic fundamantalism sweeping the middle east has seen the rise of an even more implacable foe under the banner of hamas while israel continues to refuse to talk to the plo labelling it a terrorist organisation the window of opportunity for peace is narrowing by the day if the present talks are allowed to deadlock without agreement for a long term and lasting peace that taken into account the interest of all involved the chances of peace will indeed receed the plo by its decision to rejoin the talks has staked its reputation on the success of the talks the longer the talks continue and they started and half years ago without any tangible progress the further will the plo support in the territories erode what is urgently needed is some dramatic gesture worked out by israel with us approval that could spur the peace process and force the arabs and palestinians to reciprocate vague promises as to interim government and return of territories is evidently too little too late to be any good you might ask why must the israelis and not the arabs make the first substantive moves the answer must lie in the tenous support at best that the talks receive among the mass of arab people and the fact the israel holds the most important cards namely land if a land for peace agreement can be reached and real soon the chances of a comprehensive peace treaty is good the arabs once and for all recognise israel s right to exist inside secure borders and isreal would in turn recognise the legitimate right of the palestinians to self deternimation and statehood with peace guarantee by air tight treaties the region can then hope to dwell on the economic and social well being of its population rather than prepare for the next war ram vikash tiwary the alternative to peace is not department of civil engineering war it is annihilation national university of singapore eng nusunix sg
talk.politics.mideast	re gulf war ii the media offensive in article may seas smu edu pts seas smu edu paul thompson schreiber writes gulf war ii the media offensive by douglas kellner lies of our times may gulf has changed the third parts s perception of arabs before people tended to think arabs have tough character after seeing iraqis begging for surrender people do not gave arabs much weight people tended to think arabs are a united people in fighting isrealis after gulf war seeing some arab nations beated up iraqis in order to waiver the debt to u s and kuwaitis consistly trying to draw west nations to hit iraq again people started to see arab world as a dog cage echoing sound of barking
talk.politics.mideast	re the fraud of elias davidsson mark ira kaufman writes it is your responsibility for posting quotes in context your phony research center is the source of the most unscholarly out of context agenda ridden and sophmoric propaganda that i have ever seen take a look in the mirror mark
talk.politics.mideast	re stop all the cross postings bsadeghi phoenix princeton edu behzad sadeghi writes do not and i repeat do not cross post the following subjects to soc culture iranian re jews supports serbs re arab leaders and bosnia re hizballah in bosnia re the stage is being set that s all we need here more bigotry and hate believe me we have already reached our quota for the year try again next year behzad what on earth do the above topics have to do with
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article may walter bellcore com cza troy cc bellcore com c akgun writes in article may alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes it is easy for sen biden to say that when there are no us troops in zepa or srebinica or sarejevo the existing un policy may certaining be wrong but the us wants to dictate policy and make europe responsible for the consequences of that policy bosnia is a big enough problem for the us to preach about what other countries should be doing with their forces but its forces are safely tucked away at home in the us look nobody asked those countries about their un forces to be on the ground they can take their forces which are well bosnia and the us did the un cannot impose blue berets on a country and the us has voted for the current policy and mandate in the security council and could have said no if it wanted to it has a veto clinton has not demanded the removal of the un forces because he want to have his cake and eat it too he wants to dictate policy but not be responsible for the policy he wants to dictate if clinton asks for the blue berets to leave then he bill clinton becomes responsible for what happens him and sen biden and their friends who want to fight the war from ft as long as the blue berets are there clinton can use europe as a scapegoat for american indecisiveness i fully admit that the current un policy approved by all the major powers including the us may be wrong or inappropriate but these back seat drivers in the us like clinton and biden are just a bunch of hypocrites looking for an gimmick to look like they are doing something to assuage their own consciences and those who are demanding action or leadership and most european leaders are smart enough to know the difference between american hot air and american leadership i think senator biden said it all what has to be said on this issue europe is a sad place to criticize human rights in anywhere in this world like biden said they are the bigots when it comes to cultural difference and minorty closer to their home well if biden is so outraged why the hell doesn t he do something about it where is his resolution in the us senate for a declaration of war or the commitment of us forces and troops biden is just full of hot air gerald
talk.politics.mideast	re pease without justice cann t last re last opportunity for peace in article c xknc ulowell ulowell edu cshi cs ulowell edu godada shi writes in article apr nuscc nus sg eng nusunix nus sg ram vikash tiwary writes now that all the parties are back to the negotiating table the stakes as i see is are indeed high and the future stability of the region and perhaps the world is in the balance while israel continues to refuse to talk to the plo labelling it a terrorist organisation the window of opportunity for peace is narrowing by the day if the present talks are allowed to deadlock without agreement for a long term and lasting peace that taken into account the interest of all involved the chances of peace will indeed receed the plo by its decision to rejoin the talks has staked its reputation on the success of the talks the longer the talks continue and they started and half years ago without any tangible progress the further will the plo support in the territories erode if a land for peace agreement can be reached and real soon the chances of a comprehensive peace treaty is good the arabs once and for all recognise israel s right to exist inside secure borders and isreal would in turn recognise the legitimate right of the palestinians to self deternimation and statehood with peace guarantee by air tight treaties the region can then hope to dwell on the economic and social well being of its population rather than prepare for the next war ram vikash tiwary as we see right now the position of influence enjoyed by parties favoring the negotiation process is tenuous at best the local elections in hebron that the plo was expected to win perhaps adding a bit to its flagging position of legitimacy in the eyes of palestinians and the middle east have been disrupted by hamas actions overtly directed towards undermining those and all west bank elections the present ruling israeli labor coalition seems to be one rather thin political ice the palestinian delegation has been reduced from to three to protest israel lack of seriousness in the talks and refusal to reverse all the deportations immediately hopefully however each of the parties will begin to learn that just the fact that negotiations are taking place does not mean they are giving anything away to the other side which was is the favorite argument of the rejectionists let s hope that discusion and inevitable disagreement on major issues leads at the same time to some agreement on smaller interim phase whatever term we prefer steps to be taken tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca
talk.politics.mideast	re israel not an apartheid state in article may das harvard edu adam endor uucp adam shostack writes in article spam maths adelaide edu au jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au joseph askew writes it is not a question of an individuals standing when a party puts up an arab for a cabinet post and that arab is rejected but the position is given to a jew from the same party we are not talking about power but racism not necessarily as shai points out political appointments are based on power they are also based on favors owed coalition building and deal making actually i am not sure you have understood what i have said on several occasions a minor party has put up an arab for a cabinet position that is the major party labour in this case has agreed that a minor party can have so many seats and that party nominates an arab for one this is not acceptable to the major party which insists on the minor party appointing a jew the favours owed deals done have all been settled what remains is exactly who is going to sit in cabinet the party that gets the seat wants an arab but that is not acceptable this is racism it has nothing to do with politics at all joseph askew joseph askew gauche and proud in the autumn stillness see the pleiades jaskew spam maths adelaide edu remote in thorny deserts fell the grief disclaimer sue see if i care north of our tents the sky must end somwhere actually i rather like brenda beyond the pale the river murmurs on
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article c x m ejf news cis umn edu prabhak giga cs umn edu satya prabhakar writes actually this strife in yugoslavia goes back a long way bosinan muslims in collaboration with the nazis did to serbians after the first world war what serbs are doing to muslims now this is not a fresh case of i don t have the faintest idea what literature it is to which you refer is this an explicit statement by some document or is it your interpretation of statements in such literature or is this a figment of your imagination or a nazi armenian propaganda movie script in any case a fascinating piece of analysis here are the facts source walker christopher armenia the survival of a nation new york st martin s press this generally pro armenian work contains the following information of direct relevance to the nazi holocaust a dro the butcher the former dictator of x soviet armenia and the architect of the genocide of million muslims the most respected of nazi armenian leaders established an armenian provisional republic in berlin during world war ii b this provisional government fully endorsed and espoused the social theories of the nazis declared themselves and all armenians to be members of the aryan super race c they published an anti semitic racist journal thereby aligning themselves with the nazis and their efforts to exterminate the jews and d they mobilized an armenian army of up to members which fought side by side with the wehrmacht in fact by nazi armenians in europe had established a vast network of pro german collaborators that extended over two continents thousands of armenians were serving the german army and waffen ss in russia and western europe armenians were involved in espionage and fifth column activities for hitler in the balkans and arabian peninsula they were promised an independent state under german protection in an agreement signed by the armenian national council a copy of this agreement can be found in the congressional record november see document on this side of the atlantic nazi armenians were aware of their brethrens alliance they had often expressed pro nazi sentiments until america entered the war in while the jews were being assembled for their doom in the nazi concentration camps the nazi armenians in germany formed the first armenian battalion to fight alongside the nazis in this battalion had grown into eight battalions of strong under the command of dro the butcher who was the former dictator of x soviet armenia and the architect of the cold blooded genocide of million turks and kurds between an armenian national council was formed by the notorious dashnak party leaders in berlin which was recognized by the nazis encouraged by this the armenians summarily formed a provisional government that endorsed and espoused fully the principles of the nazis and declared themselves as the members of the aryan super race and full participants to hitler s policy of extermination of the jews this armenian nazi conspiracy against the jews during wwii was an encore performance staged by the armenians during wwi when they back stabbed and exterminated million muslims by colluding with the invading russian army serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	as muslim women and children were being openly massacred by armenians in article c xbkw m l news cso uiuc edu hovig uxa cso uiuc edu hovig heghinian writes and who copied the months of the armenians come again the image conscious armenians sorely feel a missing glory in their background armenians have never achieved statehood and independence they have always been subservient and engaged in undermining schemes against their rulers they committed genocide against the muslim populations of eastern anatolia and x soviet armenia before and during world war i and fully participated in the extermination of the european jewry during world war ii belligerence genocide back stabbing rebelliousness and disloyalty have been the hallmarks of the armenian history to obliterate these episodes the armenians engaged in tailoring history to suit their whims in this zeal they tried to cover up the cold blooded genocide of million turks and kurds before and during world war i and the justice is long overdue source documents volume i document no archive no cabin no drawer no file no section no contents no to th division command militia commander ismail hakki for eight days armenians have been forcibly obstructing people from leaving their homes or going from one village to the other day and night they are rounding up male inhabitants taking them to unknown destinations after which nothing further is heard of them informed from statements of those who succeeded in escaping wounded from the massacres around taskilise ruins women and children are being openly murdered or are being gathered in the church square and similar places most inhuman and barbarous acts have been committed against moslems for eight days document no archive no cabin no drawer no file no section no contents no to st caucasian army corps command nd caucasian army corps command communications zone inspectorate commander rd army general as almost all russian units opposite our front have been withdrawn the population loyal to us in regions behind the russian positions are facing an ever increasing threat and suppression as well as cruelties and abuses by armenians who have decided to systematically annihilate the moslem population in regions under their occupation i have regularly informed the russian command of these atrocities and cruelties and i have gained the impression that the above authority seems to be failing in restoring order serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article c xfrs n apollo hp com goykhman apollo hp com red herring writes th ss divison made primerily of bosnian muslim volunteers did quite a job in the former yugoslavia during wwii these folks are now in their s s makes me wonder how many of them occupy positions that is the result of watching anti muslim sdpa nazis crooks idiots too much still covering up the crimes of your fascist armenian grandparents and nazi armenian parents not a chance as early as k s papazian asserted in patriotism perverted that the armenians lean toward fascism and hitlerism at that time he could not have foreseen that the armenians would actively assume a pro german stance and even collaborate in world war ii his book was dealing with the armenian genocide of the muslim population of eastern anatolia however extreme rightwing ideological tendencies could be observed within the dashnagtzoutune long before the outbreak of the second world war in for example o zarmooni of the tzeghagrons was quoted in the hairenik weekly the race is force it is treasure if we follow history we shall see that races due to their innate force have created the nations and these have been secure only insofar as they have reverted to the race after becoming a nation today germany and italy are strong because as nations they live and breath in terms of race on the other hand russia is comparatively weak because she is bereft of social sanctities k s papazian patriotism perverted boston baikar press preface hairenik weekly friday april the race is our refuge by o zarmooni in april hitler was preparing for the invasion of the caucasus a number of nazi armenian leaders began submitting plans to german officials in spring and summer one of them was souren begzadian paikhar son of a former ambassador of the armenian republic in baku paikhar wrote a letter to hitler asking for german support to his armenian national socialist movement hossank and suggesting the creation of an armenian ss formation in order to educate the youth of liberated armenia according to the spirit of the nazi ideas he wanted to unite the armenians of the already occupied territories of the ussr in his movement and with them conquer historic turkish homeland paikhar was confined to serving the nazis in goebbels propaganda ministry as a speaker for armenian and french language radio broadcastings the armenian language broadcastings were produced by yet another nazi armenian viguen chanth patrick von zur muhlen muehlen p enno meyer a j berkian zwischen rhein und arax jahre deutsch armenische beziehungen heinz holzberg verlag oldenburg pp and the establishment of armenian units in the german army was favored by general dro the butcher he played an important role in the establishment of the armenian legions without assuming any official position his views were represented by his men in the respective organs an interesting meeting took place between dro and reichsfuehrer ss heinrich himmler toward the end of dro discussed matters of collaboration with himmler and after a long conversation asked if he could visit pow camp close to berlin himmler provided dro with his private car a minor problem was that some of the soviet nationals were not aryans but subhumans according to the official nazi philosophy as such they were subject to german racism however armenians were the least threatened and indeed most privileged in august armenians had been recognized as aryans by the bureau of racial investigation in the ministry for domestic affairs meyer berkian ibid pp need i go on serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in a previous article josip eng umd edu josip loncaric wrote actually just after the first world war many muslims were killed by serbs under serbian led regime between the two world wars many croats were also killed especially during the dictatorship introduced on jan josip please don t be offended at this question who are the muslims in the bosnian context i know that a moslem muslim is a believer in islam islam is a religion and it is practised in many parts of the world but it is not yes definitely not an ethinic group ok so these bosnian muslims who are they to which ethnic group do they belong what language s do they speak do they have a different language from that of the serbs or croats the way the western press use the word muslim in this bosnian debacle has kept me wondering when the meaning of muslim moslem i knew from childhood was changed in the dictionary this is just a question no flames intended oguocha
talk.politics.mideast	re the fraud of elias davidsson in article c xqjz b o news cso uiuc edu narain uiuc edu writes mark ira kaufman writes it is your responsibility for posting quotes in context your phony research center is the source of the most unscholarly out of context agenda ridden and sophmoric propaganda that i have ever seen take a look in the mirror mark whatever anyway elias should take a look at my quotes to find real effective ways of getting your point across notice that all the quotes are recent buy a clue nazi man from up north pete
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article c xo c w apollo hp com goykhman apollo hp com red herring writes as if were any difference in how bosnian tribes treated each other that said one could draw a parallel between the russians in turkestan and the serbs in bosnia a typical nazi racist armenian of asala sdpa arf can it be that criminal nazi armenians of asala sdpa arf hate muslims for ideological reasons regardless of what they do between and your criminal armenian grandparents committed unheard of crimes resorted to all conceivable methods of despotism organized massacres poured petrol over babies and burned them raped women and girls in front of their parents who were bound hand and foot took girls from their mothers and fathers and appropriated personal property and real estate and today they put azeris in the most unbearable conditions any other nation had ever known in history source the times march corpses litter hills in karabakh anatol lieven comes under fire while flying with azerbaijani forces to investigate the mass killings of refugees by armenian troops as we swooped low over the snow covered hills of nagorno karabagh we saw the scattered corpses apparently the refugees had been shot down as they ran an azerbaijani film of the places we flew over shown to journalists afterwards showed dozens of corpses lying in various parts of the hills the azerbaijanis claim that as many as have died in a mass killing of azerbaijanis fleeing from the town of khodjaly seized by armenians last week a further are believed to be wounded frozen to death or missing seven of us squatted in the cabin of an azerbaijani m attack helicopter as we flew to investigate the claims of the mass killings suddenly there was a thump against the underside of the aircraft a red flash of tracer ripped past the starboard wing and the helicopter rocked sharply we swung round and there was a deafening burst of fire from the cannon under our wing as the helicopter crew returned fire we had been fired on from an armenian anti aircraft post we swung round again tipped to starboard and appeared to dive straight down into a valley the brown earth swooped around our heads the helicopter swung round again and followed the contours of the ground our cannon fired repeated blasts later it emerged that a civilian helicopter that we had been escorting had landed successfully at nakhichevanik in the east of the disputed enclave of nagorno karabakh to pick up some of the dead we had in fact been attacked both by ground fire and by an armenian helicopter i had seen the armenian helicopter intermittently through the window its cannons firing but had thought mistakenly that it was on our side our group of western journalists had embarked on a search and rescue flight that had become a combat mission our flight consisted of the civilian passenger helicopter and two m soviet attack helicopters in the azerbaijani service nicknamed flying crocodiles for their armour our party was in the second crocodile the civilian helicopter s job was to land in the mountains and pick up bodies at sites of the mass killings the attack helicopters were there to give covering fire if necessary the operation showed a striking sign of the disintegration of the soviet armed forces because our pilot was a russian officer an azerbaijani official told us that there were now five former soviet military helicopters and their pilots fighting for azerbaijan they have signed contracts to fly for us he said the helicopter we engaged in combat was most probably flown by a brother officer of our russian pilot but fighting for the armenians we had taken off just before pm on saturday from agdam airfield an heated for the armenian controlled mountains of karabakh a sheer white wall in the distance the civilian helicopter picked up four corpses and it was during this and a previous mission that an azerbaijani cameraman filmed the several the several dozen bodies on the hillsides we then took off again in a hurry and speed back towards azerbaijani lines azerbaijani gunners on the last hill before the plain and safety gazed up at us as we passed back at the airfield in agdam we took a look the bodies the civilian helicopter had picked up two old men a small girl were covered with blood their limbs contorted by the cold and rigor mortis they had been shot what did our russian pilot think of the tragedy our close shave and the war in nagorno karabakh he gave us cheerful grin politely declined to answer ques tions and marched off to his dinner serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	muslim women and children were raped and massacred by the armenians in article marlin cs duke edu wiener duke cs duke edu eduard wiener writes culture was in russia proper not in the ukraine i think all these attempts to prove that russians are descendants of finns ukrainians of tatars bulgarians of bashkirs and croats of iranians are based more on speculation than evidence owieneramus always has to stick his asala sdpa arf made nose into every discussion with non points and lies well still anxiously awaiting source cemal kutay ottoman empire vol ii p the atrocities and massacres which have been committed for a long time against the muslim population within the armenian republic have been confirmed with very accurate information and the observations made by rawlinson the british representative in erzurum have confirmed that these atrocities are being committed by the armenians the united states delegation of general harbord has seen the thousands of refugees who came to take refuge with kazim karabekir s soldiers hungry and miserable their children and wives their properties destroyed and the delegation was a witness to the cruelties many muslim villages have been destroyed by the soldiers of armenian troops armed with cannons and machine guns before the eyes of karabekir s troops and the people when it was hoped that this operation would end unfortunately since the beginning of february the cruelties inflicted on the muslim population of the region of shuraghel akpazar zarshad and childir have increased according to documented information muslim villages have been destroyed in the aforementioned region more than people have been slaughtered many possessions and livestock have been seized young muslim women have been taken to kars and gumru thousands of women and children who were able to flee their villages were beaten raped and massacred in the mountains and this aggression against the properties lives chastity and honour of the muslims continued it was the responsibility of the armenian government that the cruelties and massacres be stopped in order to alleviate the tensions of muslim public opinion due to the atrocities committed by the armenians that the possessions taken from the muslims be returned and that indemnities be paid that the properties lives and honour of the muslims be protected serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	and not only had many moslems been killed but horrible tortures source adventures in the near east by a rawlinson jonathan cape bedford square london first published pages memoirs of a british officer who witnessed the armenian genocide of million muslim people p first paragraph in those moslem villages in the plain below which had been searched for arms by the armenians everything had been taken under the cloak of such search and not only had many moslems been killed but horrible tortures had been inflicted in the endeavour to obtain information as to where valuables had been hidden of which the armenians were aware of the existence although they had been unable to find them serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article c x m ejf news cis umn edu prabhak giga cs umn edu satya prabhakar writes mohamed s sadek writes i like what mr joseph biden had to say yesterday in the senate condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans and calling that moral rape he went on to say that the reason for that is out right religious bigotry actually this strife in yugoslavia goes back a long way bosinan muslims in collaboration with the nazis did to serbians after the first world war what serbs are doing to muslims now this is not a fresh case of ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga of intense mutual hatred destruction not taking sides in this perpetual war does not amount to religious bigotry it could just be helplessness with regards to bringing peace to a region that does not even know the meaning of the word satya prabhakar muslims helping the nazis where on earth do you come up with such accuusation do you have proofs if not you should publically apologize for such a statement last time i heard the nazis prided themselves in needing no body to carry their politics and ideologies and if your statment were true don t you think israel would of used it to point to what a muslim neighbor palestine could do to them if they allowed it to be the jewish lobby and power is very strong and if what you said is true we would of heard it from them before you could come up with it and you dare say that you are taking no sides mohammed
talk.politics.mideast	re to all my friends on t p m i send greetings in article oaf may klosters ai mit edu oaf zurich ai mit edu writes in message c mnad mxd ucdavis edu some nameless geek szljubi chip ucdavis edu writes to oded feingold call off the dogs babe it s me in the flesh and no i m not wayne either so you might just want to tuck your quivering erection back into your m i t slacks and catch up on your woody allen this is an outrage i don t even own a dog of course you do you married it a while ago remember professor kevin walsh kevin cursor demon co uk
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article c yaod c cobra cs unm edu melabdel cobra cs unm edu mohammed elabdellaoui writes muslims helping the nazis where on earth do you come up with such accuusation do you have proofs if not you should publically apologize for such a statement what a dope there is no value for mohammed elabdellaoui to be here at a western university third worldist and islamic brain rot has made it impossible for him to acquire and analyze facts appropriately the history of the efforts of the mufti of jerusalem to serve the nazis in the south balkans and set up muslim ss divisions is well documented in general nazism and the leader principle resonated well among muslim peoples khomeini s concept of the faqih is a recent example of such resonance in fact totalitarianism is etymologically a reasonable translation islam to be fair the mufti did not succeed in getting large numbers of muslims to join the ss but the rather small muslim ss unit did manage to commit attrocities disproportionate to it size there were also muslim people who were less than enthusiastic about the attempt of muslim leaders to entice muslim people to serve the nazi cause actively and the turkish government ignored practically all nazi overtures even though an alliance with the nazis against the soviet government would have made a great deal of tactical sense last time i heard the nazis prided themselves in needing no body to carry their politics and ideologies and if your statment were true don t you think israel would of used it to point to what a muslim neighbor palestine could do to them if they allowed it to be the jewish lobby and power is very strong and if what you said is true we would of heard it from them before you could come up with it and you dare say that you are taking no sides yes the typical primitive muslim psychopathological psychotic behavior upon hearing or reading a disagreeable fact start whining about the jews what a jerk mohammed you should go back to your mindlessly stupid rd world country your brain has no business in a civilized first world country joachim carlo santos martillo ajami
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article c yt o ftt world std com tti world std com joachim martillo writes in article c yaod c cobra cs unm edu melabdel cobra cs unm edu mohammed elabdellaoui writes muslims helping the nazis where on earth do you come up with such accuusation do you have proofs if not you should publically apologize for such a statement what a dope there is no value for mohammed elabdellaoui to be here at a western university third worldist and islamic brain rot has made it impossible for him to acquire and analyze facts appropriately you should go back to your mindlessly stupid rd world country your brain has no business in a civilized first world country joachim carlo santos martillo ajami joachim i have restrained from involvement in flame wars these comments however make me long for the days when i was a flame warrior i would hope that you would refrain from such idiotic slander winslow formerly of madison p s i might have to drop the formerly and become the old winslow of madison note standard disclaimer above
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians look nobody asked those countries about their un forces to be on the ground they can take their forces which are incomponent and ineffective at the first place and let whoever are willing to do the job what it takes how anyone can defend this stinking un force on the ground who let the bosnnian pm yanked out from the un vehicle and being shot by the serbian military how anyone can defend this un force who are just watching the shelling on cities and towns everyday how anyone can defend and say those stinking un forces being effective when bosnian had almost children casualties between age groups i think talking about the current un forces to bosnian muslims is just an insult to their casualties i think senator biden said it all what has to be said on this issue europe is a sad place to criticize human rights in anywhere in this world like biden said they are the bigots when it comes to cultural difference and minorty closer to their home because they get rid of their minorities long long time ago starting in th centuries and they let adolph to take care of the rest in th century but he was much more naughty than they expected because he dared to step many toes so why spoil the good thing now when serbs doing today what they were thinking the same yesterday c akgun infact on tuesday the bosnian foreign minister asked formally the un to leave bosnia just to show how much hypocracy is there in europe these so called un is actually helping serbs carry out their etnic clensing murders rapes in zepa the un effectively helped the serbs carry out their heinous crimes by spreading conflicting reports that nothing was going on there the cowards or so called un peacemakers only attempted to go out there for a fact finding mission as if with all the ham radio operators were lying and all the us war planes out there have no means of flying over there this is the biggest farce in the history of the world and the same act has been repeated over and over again in different beseiged bosnian towns yes i heard today that the president of bosnia under pressure from the civilized nations has appealed to the un to stay there in bosnia he should know better these hypocrates sadly it includes clinton administration too all came out and said that the call for a referendum from bosnian serbian perliment or a bunch of rapists criminals is a farce and yet they have to wait for the result of this referendum to act for those of you who are against us to commit ground troops fine just lift the arms embargo on both sides since we know that serbs always got the heavy weapons form federal army wake up west and admit that you are the most uncivilized the most hypocratic and the most violent bunch on this earth khalid disclaimer these are only my opinions and they have nothing to do with my employers
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article may alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes in article c x y xd cbfsb cb att com sadek cbnewsg cb att com mohamed s sadek writes i like what mr joseph biden had to say yesterday in the senate condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans and calling that moral rape it is easy for sen biden to say that when there are no us troops in zepa or srebinica or sarejevo this is true the existing un policy may certaining be wrong but the us wants to dictate policy and make europe responsible for the consequences of that policy this has merit but is not entirely true bosnia is a big enough problem for the us to preach about what other countries should be doing with their forces but its forces are safely tucked away at home in the us gerald this last statement is not true according to the cbo the united states has a force of about us army personel in europe i do not know if this includes a usmc division in norway they have available a little more than usaf attack aircraft including various models of the f a f a b and a few f s there are about more of these available safely tucked away at home at one time the us maintained mbts about half were m a but some of these were relocated to the persian gulf i know the us has at least one aircraft carrier battle group nearby and probably a marine assault brigade does anyone know if there are any b b bs in england the point is although there are no us ground troops in bosnia it is not true that that all the american forces are safely camped outside of st louis i also understand that the administration is planning to position troops in macedonia any reaction out there to this question day before yesterday i heard that serbia montenegro had imposed additional trade sanctions against the bosnian serb rebels this morning a npr reported at a bridge on the drina sp verified that only a bread truck was allowed to pass through to bosnia a serbian who happened to be muslim stated that just a few months ago no vehicle even slowed for the boarder station now everyone is stopped and searched many are turned back of course all i heard was a translators version i do not speak serbo croatian if this is a effort on the part of serbia montenegro for whatever reason to push the boserbs into accepting the v o is this not a good thing peace jay morris
talk.politics.mideast	egypt cuts phone lines with independent muslim states clarinews clarinet com bahaa elkoussy writes cairo egypt upi despite reports and evidence to the contrary a foreign ministry spokesman wednesday denied knowledge of any measures taken by egyptian authorities to restrict telephone contacts with states linked to muslim militants any state that the cia does not control is called state that is linked to terrorism militants fundamentalists etc meanwhile even egyptian experts who hate the islamic movement admit that what is happening in egypt is spontaneous and most of the time a reaction to what the government does reports such as one by israeli radio and the iranian official news agency irna said this week cairo has disconnected telephone lines with iran sudan pakistan and afhganistan when asked if the telephone communication restrictions represented a new measure by egyptian authorities ibrahim agreed can anybody see any contradiction between the above and the first paragraph does anybody know what the upi original article s title was when it comes to egypt all human rights ethics principles can be ignored by the western media i wonder why
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article stk innf q suned zoo cs yale edu morris jay cs yale edu jay morris writes i also understand that the administration is planning to position troops in macedonia any reaction out there to this macedonia said yesterday it had neither requested or needs such forces this is sort of like sending the national guard to bel air when the riot is in south central obviously clinton is again trying to make policy for image purposes in america rather than to try to deal with the real problem and assume a share of responsibility for the problem he obviously didn t even consult with the macedonians he was just looking at the map of the former yugoslavia for the safest place to put american troops so he could say to the europeans hey look we have troops on the ground in the former yugoslavia too now let me bomb so i can make it look like i am doing something in the american media the problem is that the blue berets in bosnia are dead meat if clinton starts bombing but clinton doesn t have the courage to ask that the blue berets leave because then he becomes primarily responsible to the bosnian policy of the un and the allies clinton wants to have his cake and eat it too he wants to feel free to use american military power for the sake of domestic us politics and his domestic image but he doesn t want to assume the primary international leadership role in the un and among the allies like bush for all his faults did in the gulf war because with leadership comes responsibility and clinton seems to want to retain the europeans as scapegoats clinton wants to leave the europeans in charge and responsible but wants to freelance on the side and if his freelancing gets too hot he wants to be able to cut and run the american public may be easily fooled european leaders aren t gerald
talk.politics.mideast	the mufti again meanwhile they support the genocide of bosnians let me remind all of those muslim haters out there who like to mention the mufti s cooperation with germany as a reason to let muslims be slaughtered everywhere in the world of the following facts why blame the muslims for what the nazis did and forgive italy the croats and many other europeans for being real allies to hitler why blame muslims for supporting germany the enemy of their enemy at the time britain who colonized most of the middle east and was responsible for most atrocities against muslims in the region and forgive germany itself eventhough it is the one who created nazism as far as muslims are concerned there was no difference between nazi germany and antimuslim colonialist britain france in they were all racist anti arab and full of arrogance and hate wwii and the wars in algeria sudan and other places proved that very clearly even anti semitism was not more spread in germany than in france or britain it just happened to be official policy in germany and we will forgive you just set our countries free so any arguments about wwii behaviour coming from the people who killed millions in that war from either side is just plain laughable enough said
talk.politics.mideast	saudi clergy condemns debut of human rights group it looks like ben baz s mind and heart are also blind not only his eyes i used to respect him today i lost the minimal amount of respect that i struggled to keep for him to all muslim netters this is the same guy who gave a fatwah that saudi arabia can be used by the united ststes to attack iraq that fatwah is as legitimate as this one with that kind of clergy it might be an islamic duty to separate religion and politics if religion means official clergy cairo egypt upi the cairo based arab organization for human rights aohr thursday welcomed the establishement last week of the committee for defense of legal rights in saudi arabia and said it was necessary to have such groups operating in all arab countries the london based and saudi owned al sharq al awsat daily newspaper reported thursday in a dispatch from riyadh that the higher council of ulema muslim scholars on wednesday had unanimously proclaimed the formation of the group illegitimate and unacceptable in a statement issued in the saudi capital the council saudi arabia s highest religious authority said it unanimously proclaims illegitimate the creation of this committee and the inadmissibility of endorsing it because the kingdom of saudi arabia is guided by god s sharia law and the islamic courts are widespread nationwide the statement said no one in the kingdom is prevented from taking grievances to those courts or to other concerned authorities and that the authors of the bulletin announcing the founding of the committee are well aware of this the council of senior clergymen which ended its th session tuesday under chairmanship of sheikh abdel aziz ben baz warned that the formation of the group will have serious consequences but did not elaborate declarations and treaties protecting human rights particulalrly those concerning discrimination against women
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article may edison usask ca f oguocha edison usask ca writes in a previous article josip eng umd edu josip loncaric wrote actually just after the first world war many muslims were killed by serbs under serbian led regime between the two world wars many croats were also killed especially during the dictatorship introduced on jan josip please don t be offended at this question who are the muslims in the bosnian context i know that a moslem muslim is a believer in islam islam is a religion and it is practised in many parts of the world but it is not yes definitely not an ethinic group ok so these bosnian muslims who are they to which ethnic group do they belong what language s do they speak do they have a different language from that of the serbs or croats the way the western press use the word muslim in this bosnian debacle has kept me wondering when the meaning of muslim moslem i knew from childhood was changed in the dictionary this is just a question no flames intended oguocha it is indeed different usage of the word muslim in bosnia it is more or less used as an ethnic term not as religious one there are people in bosnia who refer to themselves as christian bosnian muslims if you can make sense of that bosnian serbs and bosnian muslims have the same language bosnian muslims are mainly beleivers of islam i got this from bosnian muslim friend of mine who goes to university of texas in austin jama
talk.politics.mideast	re please show up in washington dc for bosnia may th michael sells m sells haverford edu writes this is not a fresh case of ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga of intense mutual hatred destruction every place on earth is the scene of a saga of mutual hatred and destruction the holocaust was not a fresh case it was another chapter in a year history of attacks on jews in europe that didn t make it acceptable and balkan history does not make the genocide against bosnian muslims acceptable i guess that it was not acceptable because germany also chose a path of aggression simultaneously that put the interests of other countries in peril i wonder whether us or other countries would have risked themselves if only jews were persecuted and hitler had no imperialist ambitions i am no student of history and i am just asking questions if even for a moment you think that i am condoing ethnically motivated violence and killings you are dead wrong let me assure i am not my only question is this do powerful countries have a moral obligation to interefere in other countries if their own interests are not threatened i cite an essay by charles krauthammer in the time this week that discusses this issue eloquently for example did us and other european countries abandon their moral compunctions when they chose not to send military troops to bombay when hindus in a rare fit of impassioned rage killed many muslims recently i think not under what conditions should us interfere in foregin countries is an abstraction one must clarify before resorting to acrimonious accusations of religious bigotry and such satya prabhakar
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians mohammed elabdellaoui writes muslims helping the nazis where on earth do you come up with such accuusation do you have proofs if not you should publically apologize for such a statement last time i heard the nazis prided themselves in needing no body to carry their politics and ideologies and if your statment were true don t you think israel would of used it to point to what a muslim neighbor palestine could do to them if they allowed it to be the jewish lobby and power is very strong and if what you said is true we would of heard it from them before you could come up with it and you dare say that you are taking no sides my reference is a page essay in our local star tribute newspaper putting the whole conflict in perspective i will readily admit that i am no authority in this area however other posteers asserted that some muslims did join hands with croats and nazis in persecuting serbs in any case past actions do not in any way validate or legitimize what is happending there now i sincerely do apologize to the extent the author of the essay was wrong in making the assertion he made maybe some student of history may put this in perspective satya prabhakar
talk.politics.mideast	re please show up in washington dc for bosnia may th in article c z r ah news cis umn edu prabhak giga cs umn edu satya prabhakar writes michael sells m sells haverford edu writes this is not a fresh case of ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga of intense mutual hatred destruction every place on earth is the scene of a saga of mutual hatred and destruction the holocaust was not a fresh case it was another chapter in a year history of attacks on jews in europe that didn t make it acceptable and balkan history does not make the genocide against bosnian muslims acceptable i guess that it was not acceptable because germany also chose a path of aggression simultaneously that put the interests of other countries in peril i wonder whether us or other countries would have risked themselves if only jews were persecuted and hitler had no imperialist ambitions i am no student of history and i am just asking questions actually the record of the allies activities in the face of incontrovertible evidence as to what the nazis may they rot in hell were doing clearly points to the conclusion that they would have done nothing the railways to the camps were not bombed despite the ease of doing so the us the place of refuge allowed in a bare pittance of jews from europe primarily for public relations so that the government could say it was doing something many ships with refugees were turned away from us shores some found refuge in cuba or south america many others sunk or had to return to europe with predictable consequences the hope today is that we have collectively learned a lesson and are less complacent to ignore other countries internal affairs the sad reality is that this does not seem to be the case sean philip shlomo engelson yale department of computer science box yale station new haven ct
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians jovanovic nick yale edu nick jovanovic writes in article srespinnsua mojo eng umd edu josip eng umd edu josip loncaric writes under such conditions it is very easy for serbs to play a divide and conquer game and to get the muslims and croats who have strong common it is the serbs who were divided when croatia and bosnia hercegovina attempted to secede from yugoslavia ripping more than serbs and their property out of yugoslavia it is the croats that were divided at least were left in serbian province of vojvodina it is the muslims that were divided left in the region of sanjak that now belongs to serbia if the serbs in croatia and bosnia hercegovina want self determination the same right should be given to croats and muslims and albanians and hungarians in serbia why should serbia be exempted nick senad
talk.politics.mideast	re please show up in washington dc for bosnia may th subject re please show up in washington dc for bosnia may th from nick jovanovic jovanovic nick yale edu date may in article srplfinnkth minerva cis yale edu nick jovanovic jovanovic nick yale edu writes in article sredr b venus haverford edu michael sells m sells haverford edu writes i find it interesting that mr major finds the genocide of two million muslims in bosnia acceptable now you are actually claiming that muslims have been killed in b h please substantiate this utterly ridiculous claim no i m not claiming have been killed we are in the middle of the genocide process that mr major has given yet another green light to mladic seems to have most of what he wants but boban is just getting his appetite whetted because mladic refuses to allow international observers to inspect mass grave sites and killing centers in places like foca brcko and visegrad it will be years before we have an accurate account of the number killed in practical terms it would be impossible to kill all there just isn t the kind of machinery of crematoria and gas chambers and transportation lines that the nazis took years to develop and remember the nazis killed minorities in the countries they occupied to actually kill of the population requires extreme genocidal organization but i do claim that the goal of the genocide is the systematic annihilation of bosnian muslim culture by killing as many as is feasible by rape by torture by the demolition of mosques libraries and culture artificts the burning and renaming of villages the shelling of civilians so that there won t be any of the or so muslims whose lives have not been shattered by the genocide though they still may be alive and mr major not only finds this acceptable he helps it along by making sure that the victims don t have arms to defend themselves nick mike michael sells department of religion haverford college haverford pa
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article may alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes the problem is that the blue berets in bosnia are dead meat if clinton starts bombing but clinton doesn t have the courage to ask that the blue berets leave because then he becomes primarily responsible to the bosnian policy of the un and the allies clinton wants to have his cake and eat it too he wants to feel free to use american military power for the sake of domestic us politics and his domestic image but he doesn t want to assume the primary international leadership role in the un and among the allies like bush for all his faults did in the gulf war because with leadership comes responsibility and clinton seems to want to retain the europeans as scapegoats this is one of the most ridiculous arguments i have heard from the europeans let s let the serbs massacre rape and ethnically clean bosnians because we don t want our pretty blue berets there to get scratched well i say get them the hell out of there if you re worried for them but don t deny bosnians their basic right to self defense lift the embargo against bosnia and let them defend themselves what makes the un troops more valuable than the bosnian people they are letting the civilians die so the soldiers could survive when if anything it should be the other way around idiots like owen expect bosnians to swallow a forced plan and just hope this problem will go away well they re wrong if they had got their butts in gear that is if bosnia had oil a year ago much of this could be prevented now however the results of this tragedy will last for generations that s like forcing the jews to make peace with hitler yeah right this as senator biden said reeks of bigotry and makes me and any decent human being for that matter quite sick it should be the europeans not the americans who take the inititiative and ask the other for support this is their backyard not the americans today it s bosnia tomorrow it will be kosovo and macedonia greece and then turkey and the damn thing will spread not to mention european muslims who weren t even practicing before will rally to fundamentalism good luck handling that your majesty owen was upset at the question which compared him to chamberlain who hoped to appease hitler he said that chamberlain had been in munich years before any war i have been here during a blazing war for the last months well that makes him even worse because chamberlain could have at least argued i m giving germany the benefit of the doubt whereas owen can t even do that what the west is doing is aiding the serbs by tying the bosnians hands and making the stupid excuse of their powerless troops on the ground who can t even protect the bosnian foreign minister in their own armored vehicle and watch the killers just walk away what kind of peace is this what kind of civilization is this clinton wants to leave the europeans in charge and responsible but wants to freelance on the side and if his freelancing gets too hot he wants to be able to cut and run the american public may be easily fooled european leaders aren t european leaders are pathetic and are helping a genocide which even they will not be able to forget yeah they ll go to africa and fight for some damn dictator in their former colony they ll go to kuwait and fight for oil but in bosnia not only they won t fight aggression they ll even tie the hands of the victim now you tell me who is fooling whom gerald mash javad
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians subject re europe vs muslim bosnians from f oguocha date may gmt in article may edison usask ca f oguocha edison usask ca writes in a previous article josip eng umd edu josip loncaric wrote actually just after the first world war many muslims were killed by serbs under serbian led regime between the two world wars many croats were also killed especially during the dictatorship introduced on jan josip please don t be offended at this question who are the muslims in the bosnian context i know that a moslem muslim is a believer in islam islam is a religion and it is practised in many parts of the world but it is not yes definitely not an ethinic group ok so these bosnian muslims who are they to which ethnic group do they belong what language s do they speak do they have a different language from that of the serbs or croats the way the western press use the word muslim in this bosnian debacle has kept me wondering when the meaning of muslim moslem i knew from childhood was changed in the dictionary this is just a question no flames intended oguocha you ve asked a crucial question that underlies much of the genocide bosnian muslims are slavic in ethnicity they speak serbo croatian but there is a christo slavic ideology whereby all true slavs are christian and anyone who converted to islam thereby must have changed ethnicity by changing religion see the poems of ngegos or the novels of ivo andric who brilliantly displays these attitudes on the part of what he calls the people i e christian slavs for this reason the war criminals call all the bosnian muslims turks even though they are not ethnically turk and do not speak turkish as their first language for this reason what is actually a genocide labeled against those who are ethnically identical but religiously other is called paradoxically ethnic cleansing rather than religious cleansing thus while a war rages between serbs and croats as a continuation of wwii and older agenda the annihilation of islam and muslims from bosnian is being carried out under the cover of the serbo croat war regards mike michael sells department of religion haverford college haverford pa
talk.politics.mideast	re error condition re i want to subscribe i am located in israel and my name is david gotlieb
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article may edison usask ca f oguocha edison usask ca writes please don t be offended at this question who are the muslims in the bosnian context bosnian muslims are citizens od bosnia herzegovina who identify themselves with bosnian muslim cultural and religious tradition i know that a moslem muslim is a believer in islam islam is a religion and it is practised in many parts of the world but it is not yes definitely not an ethinic group ok so these bosnian muslims who are they to which ethnic group do they belong what language s do they speak do they have a different language from that of the serbs or croats in bosnia muslim is not merely a religious category but an ethnic one as well actually here are the two contradictory arguments made by people on this subject there is only serbian and croatian nationality and bosnian muslims are simply croats and serbs of islamic faith bosnian muslims are a separate nationality since they do not feel themselves to be croats nor serbs in argument was accepted by former yugoslavia as valid and was soundly rejected the reasons are pragmatic even if bosnian muslims are croats and serbs who converted to islam under turkish rule centuries ago none of the present generation has any clue what was their ancestor s actual nationality in fact although bosnian muslims have felt drawn to croatian or serbian national allegiance most of them feel they have a separate cultural and historic identity so arguments like yes but your ancestors were croats or serbs carry very little weight regardless of what their ancestors might have been as long as bosnian muslims feel that they are a separate national group that ends the debate what outsiders say is simply not relevant the way the western press use the word muslim in this bosnian debacle has kept me wondering when the meaning of muslim moslem i knew from childhood was changed in the dictionary this is just a question no flames intended in the case of former yugoslavia the date is when muslim nationality appeared as a census category for the first time this was the result of a sequence of decisions over the past decade from recognizing bosniaks as an ethnic group to february resolution in b h declaring that muslims are a separate nation to formal endorsement of this in january and eventually to the inclusion of muslim nationality choice in census forms for comparison in census there were three national categories available to muslims in bosnia herzegovina serb muslims croat muslims muslims ethnically undeclared this clearly demonstrates that muslims feel themselves to be their own nationality only a tiny minority felt able to choose serb or croat nationality census results show that bosnian muslims have consistently opted for a third category in they chose undeclared in they chose yugoslavs in both yugoslavs and bosniak ethnic group and in and they chose muslim nationality perhaps the term bosnian muslim nationality is too confusing for the rest of the world but in the present context we are talking about muslims as nationality not as a religous group within some separate national identity the reasons are mostly historical and cultural religion plays a smaller role as a part of culture in general because the area is simply not known for religious fanaticism political fanaticism yes religious fanaticism no group security and survival dominate people s thinking not fine points of theology in fact bosnia herzegovina is as well known for religious tolerance in peacetime as it is known for terrible carnage in wartime sincerely josip
talk.politics.mideast	opinion poll net citizens this is a desperate try to save our last course in university we are writing a study about the net how it all started about the people living in it however trying to explain the basics of how it all works that includes you reader of this message we would be more than grateful if we could get your answers to the following questions for how many years have you known that internet existed how often do you use the net occasions per month whatfor hobby in your profession socialy how do you access the net university profession friends private has the net taken over roles that other media played before telephone newspapers tv girlfriend what newsgroups type of information do you take part of male or female age if you have the time what s your future visions about the net limits and or possibilities how do you think hope law and censorship will change over time ahead we also want to apologize for taking up so much bandwidth with this this request has been spread to newsgroups chosen at random but you know how it is term end is closing up panic spreads email address fm hn hik se or fm pb hik se sincere respect and may the force be with you all peter henrik
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article stjjb pep transfer stratus com khalid bunce hw stratus com khalid chishti writes for those of you who are against us to commit ground troops fine just lift the arms embargo on both sides since we know that serbs always got the heavy weapons form federal army wake up west and admit that you are the most uncivilized the most hypocratic and the most violent bunch on this earth khalid it is also so easy to blame the west for their indiffernce to real bosnian suffering how about the moslem world about billion how about them ha what they are doing to stop this massacre why the oil rich arab states make the bosnian crises a national interest of the west especially for europeans we all know they can do it over night don t we blaming west and asking why they don t put their life into danger seems to be the choice of muslims too i think who is sleeping is not the west they are wide awake they are trying to save the face c akgun
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article su tf f r venus haverford edu michael sells m sells haverford edu writes thus while a war rages between serbs and croats as a continuation of wwii and older agenda the annihilation of islam and muslims from bosnian is being carried out under the cover of the serbo croat war the annihilation of islam turks is an older serbian agenda but i strongly dispute your notion that croats had a similar older agenda in fact for the past century or two croats and muslims have seen themselves as having a lot in common and they generally had friendly relations your suggestion that croat muslim relationship is anything like serb muslim relationship is completely wrong to say that croats and muslims have a lot in common does not imply they are not separate peoples the events of the past two years clearly show muslim determination to remain separate in their alliance with croats they maintained this separation croats would have accepted a much closer relationship i think this century plus of building bridges between these two friendly peoples is now at risk because of the inexorable logic of war since bosnian serbs of population have times more heavy weapons than bosnian muslims and croats combined they have squeezed muslims and croats into only of the territory muslims lost more territory than croats who built defenses early on under these conditions any alliance is bound to fall apart since it is easier to recover lost land from croats than from serbs the only thing keeping this in check was the hope of reversal of fortunes through foreign military intervention and lifting of the arms embargo since warren christopher had no luck persuading the europeans to go along with this this hope was dashed having no prospect of outside help the former allies turned on each other like two starved animals in a tight cage this inexorable logic of course got plenty of help from serbian intelligence operatives who were doing everything to build mistrust between croats and muslims for over a year a timely intervention to stop serbian aggression would have prevented this sadly nothing was done to create a balance of power on the ground as long as the serbs enjoy advantage they can break any alliance even among friends this is tragic but hardly new divide et impera was used by ancient romans with success in my view bosnian muslims and croats managed to resist this divisive strategy reasonably well until may when the hope of reversal of fortunes was lost i have a question for the distinguished diplomats do they believe balkan peoples are experimental cannon fodder i d like to know what did they expect when they decided to enforce the arms embargo which solidified serbian advantage in heavy weapons how did they expect to prevent fragmentation of the muslim and croat defense forces and how on earth do they hope to restore peace without justice the implications of this immoral approach i cannot begin to predict but i am filled with foreboding sincerely josip
talk.politics.mideast	re the mufti again meanwhile they support the genocide of bosnians so why not condemn the mufti for his nazi leanings and condemn all his supporters while also condemning the similarly genocidal killing of innocents muslim or not in bosnoia herzegovina hatred and bigotry remain just that no matter who practices them yaakov k internet yzkcu cunyvm cuny edu
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article c z i h k me utoronto ca arnsenad me utoronto ca senad arnautovic writes it is the croats that were divided at least were left in serbian province of vojvodina it is the muslims that were divided left in the region of sanjak that now belongs to serbia if croats are now divided it is because croatia seceded from yugoslavia croats in croatia b h and serbia were in one country yugoslavia until they divided themselves if muslims are now divided it is because b h seceded from yugoslavia muslims in croatia b h and serbia were in one country yugoslavia until they divided themselves that croats and muslims in yugoslavia decided to divide themselves does not give them the right to divide serbs in yugoslavia croatia and b h shoulder the burden for dividing their own nations among various unstable countries nick
talk.politics.mideast	re egypt cuts phone lines with independent muslim states in article benali alcor benali alcor concordia ca ilyess b bdira writes clarinews clarinet com bahaa elkoussy writes when it comes to egypt all human rights ethics principles can be ignored by the western media i wonder why are you pretending not knowing it here is why those who are not obedient to we west must be evil
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article may edison usask ca f oguocha edison usask ca writes in a previous article josip eng umd edu josip loncaric wrote actually just after the first world war many muslims were killed by serbs under serbian led regime between the two world wars many croats were also killed especially during the dictatorship introduced on jan josip please don t be offended at this question who are the muslims in the bosnian context i know that a moslem muslim is a believer in islam islam is a religion and it is practised in many parts of the world but it is not yes definitely not an ethinic group ok so these bosnian muslims who are they to which ethnic group do they belong what language s do they speak do they have a different language from that of the serbs or croats the way the western press use the word muslim in this bosnian debacle has kept me wondering when the meaning of muslim moslem i knew from childhood was changed in the dictionary this is just a question no flames intended oguocha mr oguocha muslims in the bosnian context are in fact turks in fact correct me if i am wrong serbs are attacking bosnians with their battle cries death to the turks is this so shocking years of communism apparently suppressed their hatred and anger towards the turks but such hatred is obviously one that dies hard serbs must understand turks are no longer the good old barbarians world has come to know by propaganda after propaganda serbs must further understand that barbarism does not work serbs must even further understand that barbarism would one day have to face counter barbarism so i urge those people serbs to stop killing bosnian women and children and they must never forget that turks in the motherland are watching patiently cordially erol esen esen mozart cs colostate edu
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article su tf f r venus haverford edu michael sells m sells haverford edu writes you ve asked a crucial question that underlies much of the genocide bosnian muslims are slavic in ethnicity they speak serbo croatian but there is a christo slavic ideology whereby all true slavs are christian and anyone who converted to islam thereby must have changed ethnicity by changing religion muslim in ex yugoslavia was a nation not a religion in fact not all muslims in b h are followers of islam therefore there do did exist in ex yugoslavia christian muslims tito defined the muslim nation constitutionally adding muslims to serbs croats and slovenes the three founding nations which entered into a voluntary union at the end of wwi in addition tito added two other nations constitutionally montenegrins and makedonijans nations had the right of secession but republics did not so muslim is much more a political term than a religious term for those who differentiate between religion and politics that is in b h it was not a christo slavic ideology that made a muslim nation in yugoslavia it was the atheist communist ideology of tito before tito there was no muslim nation in yugoslavia the war is not a religious war and it is not an ethnic war it is a civil war in which the terms of secession are being negotiated with guns instead of pens the croat muslim and serb political leaders all chose to fight over the terms of secession instead of compromising and peacefully negotiating multilateral secession agreements nick
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article sueslinna g minerva cis yale edu jovanovic nick yale edu nick jovanovic writes muslim in ex yugoslavia was a nation not a religion in fact not all muslims in b h are followers of islam therefore there do did exist in ex yugoslavia christian muslims yeah that s it you ve really outdone yourself this time nick don t forget the davidian muslims islam is not a race it s a religion you can be white black fijian or alaskan i guess you didn t absorb too much of the malcolm x interest circulating you see the whole point of islam is that it stresses equality amongst all peoples now i do realize this is difficult for you to comprehend given your staunch beliefs in serbian ethnic cleansing but give it a try it s really not that difficult the war is not a religious war and it is not an ethnic war that s right it s a disneyland war all a setup for the tv cameras there are also people who believe man never landed on the moon that the whole apollo story was done in tv studios it is a civil war in which the terms of secession are being negotiated with guns instead of pens the croat muslim and serb political leaders all chose to fight over the terms of secession instead of compromising and peacefully negotiating multilateral secession agreements terms of secession you are of course joking right nick nobody chose to fight bosnia and croatia were internationally recognized nations when the serbs attacked and started on their well documented genocide that makes them an outside aggressor it s a simple genocide a classical example of ethnic cleansing there is no question of civil war shakil
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article may edison usask ca f oguocha edison usask ca writes in a previous article sadek cbnewsg cb att com mohamed s sa i the senate condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans and calling that moral rape he went on to say that the reason for that is out right religious bigotry mohamed what has he got to say about the carnage and genocide in our own sudan the two scenarios must be viewed from the same perspective or don t you think so well methinks no flames intended oguocha mohamed i too noticed that in all this screaming and shouting not one person brought up the question of atrocities being commited on non muslims by the sudanese government could it be that they are africans and so who cares i suggest that everyone cut the hypocrisy and bleating about bosnia and go on to discuss something even more meaningless the report below shows that the sudanese are acting in the finest traditions of islamic law as expounded by some die hard people on the net who shall remain nameless sudan government troops steal women children washington government troops in sudan are involved in massacres kidnapping and the transporting of forced labor into libya according to a state department document declassified wednesday the report compiled by the u s embassy in khartoum said government forces particularly arab militias organized as the popular defense forces routinely steal women and children in southern sudan some women and girls are kept as wives the others are shipped north where they perform forces labor on kordofan central sudan farms or are exproted notably to libya it said
talk.politics.mideast	re of heroes and cowards the depopulation of karabakh armenians in article may urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian wrote dd not taking sides leaves one in a state of perpetual indecision because dd both sides in this issue have their own logic at any given time as an dd armenian i am partisan by definition however this does give me the obviously a not goes here as evidenced by the context dd license to lie cover up or revise events under question as we have read dd on usenet in postings by agents of the turkish government i understand dd both sides of the issue but this does not mean i will advocate both sides dd when it suits me such a position would make me a hypocrite i am also not dd being paid by agents of turkey nor azerbaijan as are many proponents of dd the azeri side i refer to agents such as captioline international group dd ltd being paid in excess of month by azerbaijan i state my case dd unencumbered by such advocacy or prostitution thanks to mr cg david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia has not learned a lesson in s d p a center for regional studies anatolia and has forgotten the p o box punishment inflicted on it cambridge ma late turkish president turgut ozal
talk.politics.mideast	five russian soldiers sentenced to death in azerbaijan may five russian soldiers sentenced to death in azerbaijan moscow upi five soldiers who served in russia s th army stationed in armenia were sentenced to death in the azerbaijani capital baku thursday for allegedly carrying out diversions and killing azeri soldiers a statement released by the news service of azeri president abulfaz elchibey said the sentence was final and was not subject to protest or appeal the russian state news agency itar tass reported but the russian foreign ministry issued an appeal for the men to be handed over to the authorities in moscow for punishment this would accord with modern standards of humanity towards those who have committed crimes the statement reads the five men together with another soldier who received a year prison sentence were captured in september by azeri police in the kelbadzhar district of azerbaijan between nagorno karabakh and armenia the supreme court in baku said the men had gone through special training in a company of the russian th army in the armenian capital yerevan after which they were sent across the armenian azeri border into nagorno karabakh to carry out diversions against azeri troops however the russian foreign ministry statement claimed they had deserted the russian army and were fighting as mercenaries with armenian armed forces in the battle zone round karabakh nagorno karabakh is an armenian populated enclave within azerbaijan which for five years has been fighting for independence from baku in a war that has left many thousands dead and uprooted hundreds of thousands from their homes both yerevan and baku have always claimed that russian servicemen stationed in these caucasian republics who were left behind after the break up of the soviet union are fighting as mercenaries in the karabakh war the statement from moscow said the russian side repeatedly appealed to the azerbaijani government to show humanity and leniency in their treatment of the six men and to hand them over to the russian authorities it said that president boris yeltsin himself sent a letter with this request to his azeri counterpart elchibey itar tass said that the soldiers defense attorneys had lodged an appeal for clemency david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia has not learned a lesson in s d p a center for regional studies anatolia and has forgotten the p o box punishment inflicted on it cambridge ma late turkish president turgut ozal
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians t s reddy writes the report below shows that the sudanese are acting in the finest traditions of islamic law as expounded by some die hard people on the net who shall remain nameless washington government troops in sudan are involved in massacres kidnapping and the transporting of forced labor into libya according to a state department document declassified wednesday the report compiled by the u s embassy in khartoum said government forces particularly arab militias organized as the popular defense forces routinely steal women and children in southern sudan some women and girls are kept as wives the others are shipped north where they perform forces labor on kordofan central sudan farms or are exproted notably to libya it said while the people here may be claim to be muslim the actions reported here if they actually happened are degrees opposite from what islam stands for and i for one condemn them nizam arain what makes the universe so hard to comprehend internet narain uiuc edu is that there is nothing nextmail narain sumter cso uiuc edu to compare it with
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article sufneinne f curie systemsy cs yale edu ahmed shakil cs yale edu shakil waiz ahmed writes in article sueslinna g minerva cis yale edu jovanovic nick yale edu nick jovanovic writes muslim in ex yugoslavia was a nation not a religion in fact not all muslims in b h are followers of islam therefore there do did exist in ex yugoslavia christian muslims yeah that s it you ve really outdone yourself this time nick don t forget the davidian muslims islam is not a race it s a religion you can be white black fijian or alaskan i guess you didn t absorb too much of the malcolm x interest circulating you see the whole point of islam is that it stresses equality amongst all peoples now i do realize this is difficult for you to comprehend given your staunch beliefs in serbian ethnic cleansing but give it a try it s really not that difficult our white knight for islam rides in again our instant expert on religion race and ethnicity is at the door stand back all let him through he s going to single handedly rescue islam from all these dastardly mistakes misquotes misconceptions the war is not a religious war and it is not an ethnic war that s right it s a disneyland war all a setup for the tv cameras there are also people who believe man never landed on the moon that the whole apollo story was done in tv studios it is a civil war in which the terms of secession are being negotiated with guns instead of pens the croat muslim and serb political leaders all chose to fight over the terms of secession instead of compromising and peacefully negotiating multilateral secession agreements terms of secession you are of course joking right nick nobody chose to fight bosnia and croatia were internationally recognized nations when the serbs attacked and started on their well documented genocide that makes them an outside aggressor it s a simple genocide a classical example of ethnic cleansing there is no question of civil war shakil did it occur to you that there is such a thing as bosnian serbs who aren t necessarily outsiders and while you re at it could you please pontificate a little bit about your islamic pals in the sudan who are running amuck in the south kidnapping women and children and in essence doing the same thing how come we don t hear your wonderful treatises on what s happening out there
talk.politics.mideast	re news that i missed in article c vext lxn bony bony com jake bony bony com jake livni writes in article may ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes why is it then that when the british iranians and uae refer to occupied territory they mean territory in dispute in israel but not in their own affairs i suppose for the same reason jews call the occupied territory judea and sumaria it s called propaganda and if you repeat lies often enough people start to believe it js
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article c z jd apb news cis umn edu prabhak giga cs umn edu satya prabhakar writes my reference is a page essay in our local star tribute newspaper putting the whole conflict in perspective i will readily admit that i am no authority in this area however other posteers asserted that some muslims did join hands with croats and nazis in persecuting serbs in any case past actions do not and the best evidence you can find is second hand hearsay from an unnamed source you may indeed be confusing some muslims with nazi armenians altogether nazi armenians served in various units in the german wehrmacht according to ara j berkian in predominantly armenian army units in german army units in various working units and in the waffen ss a number of these nazi armenians were volunteers from france greece rumania and bulgaria who had chosen to commit themselves to the german war effort derounian says that dashnag armenians from france bore the mark legion armenienne that nazi armenians like dro the butcher and nezhdeh sided with the germans probably had an impact on the decision of armenians who overwhelmingly opted for armed service enno meyer a j berkian zwischen rhein und arax jahre deutsch armenische beziehungen heinz holzberg verlag oldenburg pp john roy carlson arthur derounian in the armenian displaced persons ibid p in fall the armenian infantry battalions and were formed to be followed by battalions and in spring in the second half of infantry battalions and were created these battalions together with other indigenous caucasian units were attached to the infantry division also attached to id were the field battalions ii i and i which were formed between may and may altogether twelve armenian battalions served the nazi army if battalion ii which was not employed at any time is to be included most battalions were commanded by nazi armenian officers armenians wore german uniforms with an armband in the dashnag colours red blue orange and the inscription armenien joachim hoffmann dies ostlegionen turkotataren kaukasier und wolgafinned im deutschen heer verlag rombach freiburg p while having collaborated with the nazis against stalin during the second world war nazi armenians changed their policy after hitler s defeat they now backed stalin s claims on eastern turkish provinces hoping that these would be annexed to soviet armenia and their muslim population would be exterminated stalin played on armenian national sentiments to enlist the support of armenians in the ussr and america for his imperial ambitions stalin s ultimatum to the turkish government led truman to formulate his famous doctrine walter kolarz religion in the soviet union london macmillan co ltd new york st martin s press pp serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article su iminnnap mojo eng umd edu josip eng umd edu josip loncaric writes and was soundly rejected the reasons are pragmatic even if bosnian muslims are croats and serbs who converted to islam under turkish rule centuries ago none of the present generation has any clue what was their ancestor s actual nationality in fact although i am forced to disagree with you first of all one may have been born from a non turkish non muslim parent outside the turkish land yet still can be a turk provided this person calls himself or herself a turk because the designation of a turk is not a genetic feature not a racial or religious feature it is a matter of identifying with the turkish values secondly the following observations by westerners were written in french by ahmet cevat if turks had behaved like christians to use force to convert to islam the nations which they brought under their power to which no one could have opposed today there would be no eastern problem but turks did not do so they obeyed the word of the koran to permit everybody to worship in their own way centuries before frederick the great pronounced his famous dictum thus in an age when the christian europe itself shed christian blood and when people in europe enjoyed inflicting inhuman tortures upon those whose beliefs differed from theirs the ottoman empire became the sole country where the inquisition did not exist where deaths at the stake were unheard of and where accusations of witchcraft were not made and the barbarian turkey was the only country where the jews persecuted and chased away everywhere by the christians could find asylum these facts demonstrate that muslim countries provided spiritually far better living conditions than christian countries the turks who are a conquering nation did not turkify the nations that came under their rule instead they respected their religions and traditions it was a stroke of luck for romania to live under turkish rule instead of russian or austrian rule because otherwise there would not have been a romanian nation today popescu ciocanel turks rule over people under their administration only externally without interfering with their internal structures on account of this the autonomy of minorities in turkey is better and more complete than any in the most advanced european countries human beings hate each other on account of religious differences this flaw is older than islam and christianity but there has never been any examples of this adjuration in turkey because turks never oppress anybody on account of his religion if enmity on the basis of religion had been such a case of simple contempt among us too or if it did not keep translating itself into action many nations in our europe would probably have considered themselves happy a de mortraye turkey never became a scene for religious terror or for the cruelty of the inquisition on the contrary it served as an asylum for the unfortunate victims of christian fanaticism if you look into history you will see that in the fifteenth century thousands of jews who were expelled from spain and portugal found such a good asylum in turkey that their descendants have been living there very calmly all through these approximately three hundred years and are only forced to defend themselves in some countries against the cruelty of christians especially that of the orthodoxes no jew is able to appear in public during easter celebrations in athens even today in turkey however if the israelites are insulted by the greek and armenian communities local courts immediately take them under their protection in that vast and calm country of the sultan all religions and nations are living together peacefully although the mosque is superior to the church and the synagogue it does not replace them because of this the catholic sect is more free in istanbul and smyrna compared with paris and lyon in addition to the fact that no law in turkey prohibits the open air ceremonies of this sect neither does any law imprison its cross in the church while the dead are being taken to the graves a long line of priests bear processional candles and chant catholic hymns when all the priests in all the churches in the galata and beyoglu districts go into the streets and form clerical processions during the eucharist celebrations chanting hymns and bearing their crosses and religious banners a detachment of soldiers escorts them which forces even the turks to stand in respect around the group of priests a ubicini ah djevat yabancilara gore eski turkler rd ed istanbul pp ibid p ibid pp ibid pp serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	jews constantly went in fear of armenian or greek attacks in article c zmb pn news cso uiuc edu ptg uxa cso uiuc edu panos tamamidis writes what i simply want is the same thing for the greeks of turkey the turkish state should recognize its crimes against the greek minority pardon me history shows that within the last years greeks played that game twice they used istanbul patriarch grigorios in to instigate the morea rebellion that resulted in the massacres of the muslim people again the orthodox patriarch constantine v invited the russian czar nicholas ii to invade the ottoman empire in the name of jesus and save his flock from ottoman rule source the past in medieval and modern greek culture in speros vryonis ed byzantina kai metabyzantina vol i malibu calif p in the words of professor skiotis with savage jubilance the greeks sang the words let no turk remain in the morea nor in the whole world the greeks were determined to achieve to romaiko in the only way they knew how through a war of religious extermination the leader of the ashkenazi community of corlu complained to the president of aiu alliance israelite universelle in about persistent greek attacks against its jewish quarter the fanatic greeks of our city as of other places in thrace have the habit of contrary to the spirit of real christianity making a replica of judas iscariote and of burning it on the night of holy saturday they construct a wooden figure cover it with clothing which they claim is that of the ancient jews and they burn it publicly in the middle of a multitude of the ignorant and the fanatic it often happens that this multitude already excited by the tales of the suffering of christ that has been made to them at the church is exaulted at the appearance of the execution of he who is supposed to have betrayed christ and works up a great anger against the jews for a long time we have known that each year on such a day they will cut off the heads and arms of the corpses in our cemetery and will burn them with great solemnity we make no complaint about this in order not to create differences between the two communities but this audacious madness of these fanatics has increased we ourselves see the flames and hear the cries of hatred and vengeance against the jews ashkenazi community corlu to aiu no may in aiu archives paris ii c with report printed in el tiempo of may source professor stanford j shaw the jews of the ottoman empire and the turkish republic new york university press new york pages in immediately after enactment of the new organic statute for the jewish community and just as jewish capital from europe was beginning to have an effect in istanbul local armenians and greeks started a pogrom against jews immediately across the sea of marmara at haydarpasa terminus of the anatolia railroad with three hundred jews massacred and many more beaten and raped before the disturbance was stopped after the sultan sent his personal guard across the bay to protect the jews in later years ritual murder attacks against jews carried out mostly by native greeks armenians and in arab provinces by maronites and other arab christians often with the assistance of the local european consuls took place throughout the empire there were literally thousands of incidents continuously until world war i in southeastern europe as far west and north as monastir and kavalla in istanbul at gallipoli and the dardanelles at salonica and in all the arab provinces as far south as damascus and beirut and in egypt at cairo and alexandria these invariably resulted from accusations spread among ottoman christians by word of mouth or published in their newspapers often by christian financiers and merchants anxious to get their jewish competitors out of the way or to divert onto the jews muslim anger at reports of christian massacres of muslims in southeastern europe or central asia resulting in individual and mob attacks on jews and the burning of their shops and homes individual experiences were horrible jews constantly went in fear of armenian or greek attacks in the streets of ottoman cities in egypt and syria it was usually the greeks who led the way in many cases with the assistance of local armenians and syrian christians whose greek arabic and french language newspapers often printed all the rumors they could find regarding jews evidently with the desire of instigating violence the syrian arab christians in particular spread their long standing anti semitic hatreds from syria to egypt where their monopoly of the local press and their espousal of popular causes such as egyptian nationalism and opposition to the british rule enabled them to spread their anti jewish message among the muslim masses with little question or opposition on june thus sir evelyn baring later lord cromer british high commissioner in egypt received the following report from david and nissim ades in cairo sir i beg sir to draw to your attention to the violent articles which has sic appeared in an arabic paper called el mahroussa which contained nothing but lies and false accusations against the jews especially those the issues of the th th and th instant now sir are we to have here an anti semitic party amidst fanaticism greeks armenians etc or is he to be allowed to continue to poison the people s minds with exaggeration and painted words in an article he asserted that the jews use christian blood for passover of course this has caused a deal of excitement whenever greek and other orthodox religious authorities or prominent greek business leaders or consuls were asked to help to stem the violence or reduce tension they invariably indicated their cooperation and then failed to do anything to prevent attacks or punish those who stimulated or led them the leader of the ashkenazi community of corlu complained to the president of aiu alliance israelite universelle in about persistent greek attacks against its jewish quarter the fanatic greeks of our city as of other places in thrace have the habit of contrary to the spirit of real christianity making a replica of judas iscariote and of burning it on the night of holy saturday they construct a wooden figure cover it with clothing which they claim is that of the ancient jews and they burn it publicly in the middle of a multitude of the ignorant and the fanatic it often happens that this multitude already excited by the tales of the suffering of christ that has been made to them at the church is exaulted at the appearance of the execution of he who is supposed to have betrayed christ and works up a great anger against the jews for a long time we have known that each year on such a day they will cut off the heads and arms of the corpses in our cemetery and will burn them with great solemnity we make no complaint about this in order not to create differences between the two communities but this audacious madness of these fanatics has increased we ourselves see the flames and hear the cries of hatred and vengeance against the jews el tiempo april galante istanbul i galante documents v fo enclosed in baring no to lord salisbury cairo june reprinted in landau ritual murder accusations p jacob landau ritual murder accusations and persecutions of jews in nineteenth century egypt sefunot v for example see report in baiu bulletin de l alliance israelite universelle deuxieme serie paris first semestre pp galante also reported similar difficulties with the greek religious leaders while he was teaching in rhodes ashkenazi community corlu to aiu no may in aiu archives paris ii c with report printed in el tiempo of may serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re baltic states and realism and virvir drivel in article may husc harvard edu verbit brauer harvard edu mikhail s verbitsky writes what is the mental disease when the patient repeats the same sentence over and over as a response to any kind of outside intrusion mutlu has similar symptomatic anyway the only difference is that he has a bigger database with your level of understanding my dear friend mutlu probably thought that he d be nice and help you genocide apologist to get the point besides all your article reflects is your abundant ignorance ignorance is probably the main reason why you historical revisionist are in such a mess you even make nazi criminal armenians laugh in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul it is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that some of us create for ourselves it certainly is possible to severe the artificial life support system of an imagined ethnic purity that some of us falsely trust as the only structure that can support their heart beats in this alien land sahak melkonian preserving the armenian purity an appropriate analogy with the jewish holocaust might be the systematic extermination of the entire muslim population of the independent republic of armenia which consisted of at least percent of the population of that republic the memoirs of an armenian army officer who participated in and eye witnessed these atrocities was published in the u s in with the title men are like that other references abound rachel a bortnick the jewish times june men are like that by leonard a hartill bobbs co indianapolis memoirs of an armenian army officer translated to english and published by a member of american near east relief organization gives the whole account of the genocide of all turkish and moslem people in armenia organized and executed by armenian government and army also gives account of countless other massacres and atrocities against the turkish people in armenia adventures in the near east by a rawlinson dodd meade co eyewitness account of the same genocide by a british army officer world alive a personal story by robert dunn crown publishers inc new york another eyewitness account of the same genocide by an american officer from sardarapat to serves and lousanne by avetis aharonian the armenian review magazine volume fall through spring memoirs of the chief armenian delegate to the paris peace conference were published in the armenian review magazine in articles from volume fall to volume spring these memoirs include an interview between aharonian and british foreign minister lord curzon in which above mentioned genocide was discussed the official report mentioned by lord curzon is the report of british high commissioner to caucasia sir oliver wardrop kill turks and kurds wherever you find them and in whatever circumstances you find them turkish children also should be killed as they form a danger to the armenian nation hamparsum boyadjian m varandian history of the dashnaktsutiun p source hovannisian richard g armenia on the road to independence university of california press berkeley and los angeles p the addition of the kars and batum oblasts to the empire increased the area of transcaucasia to over square miles the estimated population of the entire region in was of whom percent were armenian percent georgian and percent moslem of the latter group were tatars paradoxically barely one third of transcaucasia s armenians lived in the erevan guberniia where the christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds erevan uezd the administrative center of the province had only armenians as compared to moslems by the time of the russian census of however the armenians had established a scant majority percent in the guberniia it had risen by to percent or of the inhabitants this impressive change in the province s ethnic character notwithstanding there was on the eve of the creation of the armenian republic a solid block of tartars who continued to dominate the southern districts from the outskirts of ereven to the border of persia see also map historic armenia and map administrative subdivisions of transcaucasia in percent turk we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the tartars and then proceeded in the work of extermination our troops surrounded village after village little resistance was offered our artillery knocked the huts into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable and inhabitants fled from them into fields bullets and bayonets completed the work some of the tartars escaped of course they found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border into turkey the rest were killed and so it is that the whole length of the borderland of russian armenia from nakhitchevan to akhalkalaki from the hot plains of ararat to the cold mountain plateau of the north were dotted with mute mournful ruins of tartar villages they are quiet now those villages except for howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the scattered bones of the dead ohanus appressian men are like that p serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	traditional and historical armenian barbarism and fascism apr moscow upi it s horrible people are trying to get their wives and children out men are leaving their defense positions it s total anarchy said mekhman aliyev a spokesman for the azerbaijani president aliyev said people three quarters of them civilians the rest government soldiers had been killed and wounded in the assault by armenian fighters serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	the unspeakable crimes of x soviet armenian government must be righted in article may news uiowa edu mau herky cs uiowa edu mau napoleon writes greeks do not like turks not because of what they did to us but because of what they plan to do to us let me improve this one for you then for nearly one thousand years the turkish and kurdish people lived on their homeland the last one hundred under the oppressive soviet and armenian occupation the persecutions culminated in the armenian government planned and carried out a genocide against its muslim subjects million turks and kurds were murdered and the remainder driven out of their homeland after one thousand years turkish and kurdish lands were empty of turks and kurds the survivors found a safe heaven in turkiye today x soviet armenian government rejects the right of turks and kurds to return to their muslim lands occupied by x soviet armenia today x soviet armenia covers up the genocide perpetrated by its predecessors and is therefore an accessory to this crime against humanity x soviet armenia must pay for its crime of genocide against the muslims by admitting to the crime and making reparations to the turks and kurds turks and kurds demand the right to return to their lands to determine their own future as a nation in their own homeland on this occasion we once again reiterate the unquestioned justice of the restitution of turkish and kurdish rights and we demand that the x soviet armenian government admit its responsibility for the turkish and kurdish genocide render reparations to the muslim people and return the land to its rightful owners the recognition of the genocide has become an issue which cannot be delayed further and it is imperative that artificial obstacles created for political manipulations be removed we believe the time has come to demand from the the united states that it formally recognizes the turkish and kurdish genocide adopts the principles of our demands and refuses to accede to armenian pressures to the contrary as taxpayers of the united states we express our vehement protest to the present u s government policy of continued coddling protection and unqualified assistance towards x soviet armenia our territorial demands are strictly aimed at x soviet armenia s source from sardarapat to sevres and lausanne by avetis aharonian the armenian review vol no autumn sep pp p second paragraph your three chiefs dro hamazasp and kulkhandanian are the ringleaders of the bands which have destroyed tartar villages and have staged massacres in zangezour surmali etchmiadzin and zangibasar this is intolerable look and here he pointed to a file of official documents on the table look at this here in december are the reports of the last few months concerning ruined tartar villages which my representative wardrop has sent me the official tartar communique speaks of the destruction of villages p fifth paragraph yes of course i repeat until this massacre of the tartars is stopped and the three chiefs are not removed from your military leadership i hardly think we can supply you arms and ammunition it is the armed bands led by dro hamazasp and kulkhandanian who during the past months have raided and destroyed many tartar villages in the regions of surmali etchmiadzin zangezour and zangibasar there are official charges of massacres serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re israel an apartheid state not quite in article srg cinnj early bird think com shaig think com shai guday writes in article spam maths adelaide edu au jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au joseph askew writes please cite specific examples where an arab party member was rejected while a jewish party member was accepted if you look at the bottom of this article you will see that i have very kindly dug up one of yigal arens previous postings entirely without his permission i hope he doesn t mind containing translations from ha arezt detailing just such a case perhaps you think that ha arezt lies would you like to provide me with an assurance that this practise never occurs if you examine these i am sure you will discover that the arab party member did not have the power base that his jewish counterpart had right arabs have been voting in israel for how long and in all that time not one arab ever gained enough of a personal following to get his fellow party members to put in a ministry this is about as likely as sprouting wings and flying to rio what basis do you have for explaining this odd failure you seem very confident that you are right exactly how do you know why are you sure once again if for arguments sake all the arab israelis were to vote for labor at the next election you can rest assured that the number of arab mks and cabinet members would increase proportionately to the power shift exactly what basis do you have for saying this when the labour party has never put an arab into a cabinet post and insists its coalition members do the same why and on what basis are you reassuring me in the face of years of discriminatory practise you are overlooking the fact that they wield political power as individuals based upon a wider collective power base hey what as i said even when their party puts them up they get knocked back it surely couldn t be because they are arabs is it the reasoning i see at work is purely political as far as security goes i think that some serious gaffs were made by right wing jews as well e g sharon well yes but security is the reason most often given by people who want to make excuses i merely thought it would crop up and so pre empted it start of article all commets in are mine not dr arens comments in square brackets are mine yigal from the other front july translation of ha aretz article racism in the knesset coalition requirements on one hand and the presence of progressive mks from meretz in the coalition on the other have compelled rabin and his friends to change to some extent their attitude towards the arab public and their representatives in the knesset although he did refuse to view them as partners taking part in the coalition and joining the government he did agree to meet with them and to give them a document of intentions which included a commitment to work towards a decrease in the discrimination between jewish and arab citizens decrease what but posters have told us time and again that such discrimination does not exist at all is rabin too a closet self hater yigal however racism has not disappeared when the knesset sat to consider who would staff its various committees a request was made to put an mk from hadash the communist party one of the arab parties yigal on the state comptroller s committee and oh did that ever stir up a storm including in the ranks of labor since many knesset members find it unthinkable that an arab mk sit on one of the important house committees security secrets are liable to fall into their hands this attitude which until recently had not even aroused criticism being so natural and so deeply embossed upon people s hearts holds that there are knesset members who despite having been elected by tens of thousands of votes are not entitled to be full partners in the body which represents the people of israel we are not speaking here of political discrimination which would be bad enough in itself but of racial discrimination the proof one of the compromises proposed was that mk mahamid an arab yigal should be replaced by tamar gojanski a jew yigal from the same party it was not the member s party which was considered unfit but his race here is a documented case in a respected israeli newspaper it is worth noting that for the first time since the state s founding a public debate has arisen on this subject as witness the following article a test of self confidence by gid on levi ha aretz july revelations of discrimination against arabs have become such an integral part of our daily routine that there is not much effort made to deal with them do you hear that please contact this levi fellow and explain to him how little he knows about israel please yigal except that sometimes the demon bursts out from behind the government s window dressing and then the phenomenon is seven times more serious last week provided two more such examples the israeli knesset is finding it very difficult to allow arab representation on its more important committees and israel television is finding it no less difficult to give a platform to arabs from the territories seemingly two entirely different matters but in fact they are one and the same the th knesset proved last week that even though one third of its members are new faces it has not renewed its own face at all at least on one issue parliamentary traditions may be modernized and parliamentary traditions may become obsolete and only one tradition endures forever no arab shall set foot in the more important committees of the house there has never been and never will be an arab mk on the external affairs and defense committee or on the finance committee worlds have been overturned over the question of whether or not to give arabs for the first time a place on the state comptroller s committee the arguments are old and well known in all three of the above committees innumerable secrets are revealed and woe unto us if an arab should hear them one must not make light of such arguments but their significance should also not be exaggerated every arab mk is not spending all his time waiting for the opportune moment to hand over information from the knesset committee room to black panther headquarters in jenin and not all the aforementioned committees are continually occupied in the discussion of top secret matters which could safely be revealed for example to mks supportive of the jewish underground but not to an arab mk from the likud labor or even from hadash the arabs themselves would probably forego membership in the subcommittee on secret service matters but what would happen one may ask if mk nawaf masalha were to hear god forbid a review of the foreign minister in an open meeting of the foreign affairs and defense committee or even a review of the army chief of staff which in any case are regularly leaked to the next edition of the news and what would happen if mk hashem mahamid were to report on what he had seen with his own eyes at al najah their non participation in important committees and that of their colleagues creates an intolerable situation where arab members of the elected house have only semi positions they are good enough for addressing plenary sessions and for voting for or against the government and participating in the deliberations of the immigration and absorption committee but they must not for example participate in the process of formulating the state budget in the finance committee or in the allocation of resources to local authorities in any case they have little part in that labor s dependence on the support of the arab parties has brought about some improvement mk hashem mahamid will it seems participate in the state comptroller s committee earlier there had been a ridiculous attempt made to dictate to hadash who their representative should be and thus to prevent the arab from entering this dubious holy of holies but it soon became clear that there was no legal or constitutional backing for such a step but not to worry even now the jewish mind is contriving devices the new committee chair roni milo has already announced that he will set up subcommittees aplenty for his committee thus he will decide where it is permissible for mahamid to participate and where not a solution such as this could by the way also have been adopted for the rest of the committees thereby completely eliminating the fear of state secrets being leaked to the enemy and removing the stain of discrimination from the knesset end article do you accept that as documentation joseph askew joseph askew gauche and proud in the autumn stillness see the pleiades jaskew spam maths adelaide edu remote in thorny deserts fell the grief disclaimer sue see if i care north of our tents the sky must end somwhere actually i rather like brenda beyond the pale the river murmurs on
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article c yt o ftt world std com tti world std com joachim martillo writes in article c yaod c cobra cs unm edu melabdel cobra cs unm edu mohammed elabdellaoui writes muslims helping the nazis where on earth do you come up with such accuusation do you have proofs if not you should publically apologize for such a statement what a dope there is no value for mohammed elabdellaoui to be here at a western university third worldist and islamic brain rot has made it impossible for him to acquire and analyze facts appropriately and is there a reason or value for such a brainless shit for brains asshole to be haer you are a self hating bastard neither your name nor your ideas which i ve come across before and thought were too stupid and uncivlized to respond to prove your first worldist claim and civility the history of the efforts of the mufti of jerusalem to serve the nazis in the south balkans and set up muslim ss divisions is well documented in general nazism and the leader principle resonated well among muslim peoples khomeini s concept of the faqih is a recent example of such resonance in fact totalitarianism is etymologically a reasonable translation islam to be fair the mufti did not succeed in getting large numbers of muslims to join the ss but the rather small muslim ss unit did manage to commit attrocities disproportionate to it size there were also muslim people who were less than enthusiastic about the attempt of muslim leaders to entice muslim people to serve the nazi cause actively and the turkish government ignored practically all nazi overtures even though an alliance with the nazis against the soviet government would have made a great deal of tactical sense give me sources to read it or shut up you think i will take such an ignorant as yourself on his words last time i heard the nazis prided themselves in needing no body to carry their politics and ideologies and if your statment were true don t you think israel would of used it to point to what a muslim neighbor palestine could do to them if they allowed it to be the jewish lobby and power is very strong and if what you said is true we would of heard it from them before you could come up with it and you dare say that you are taking no sides yes the typical primitive muslim psychopathological psychotic behavior upon hearing or reading a disagreeable fact start whining about the jews what a jerk there is nothing primitive about islam except in your mind i do read and live daily with disagreable facts and i only ask them to prove themselves the last time i checked this was truly a st worldist civilized approach to facts and figures i did not whine about the jews i merely stated a fact thet is strange to nobody as far as me being jerk fuck you sorry to other people that read this mohammed you should go back to your mindlessly stupid rd world country your brain has no business in a civilized first world country i am at home fuck face my name does not mean i am from somewhere else except in your litte manute stupid brain and while we are at names yours does not particularly seem to be st worldist ajami what s that arabic as i said you must be ashamed of what you are you must really hate yourself don t you ass hole mohammed joachim carlo santos martillo ajami
talk.politics.mideast	re pease without justice cann t last re last opportunity for peace it seems that to keep the peace talks going israel has to keep making goodwill gesture after goodwill gesture while palestinian arabs continue to go around hunting jews if the peace talks are going to have any realistic chance of success the arabs are going to have to start reciprocating especially since they are the ones who will be getting tangible concessions in return for giving up only intangibles if they keep trying to change the already agreed upon rules which seems to be one of their favorite games the israelis are not likely to be very confident that the intangibles they will receive at the bargaining table will be worth the parchment they re written on it takes two to negotiate a peace it s time for the arabs to start doing their share alan h stein astein israel nysernet org
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article c z jd apb news cis umn edu prabhak giga cs umn edu satya prabhakar writes mohammed elabdellaoui writes muslims helping the nazis where on earth do you come up with such accuusation do you have proofs if not you should publically apologize for such a statement last time i heard the nazis prided themselves in needing no body to carry their politics and ideologies and if your statment were true don t you think israel would of used it to point to what a muslim neighbor palestine could do to them if they allowed it to be the jewish lobby and power is very strong and if what you said is true we would of heard it from them before you could come up with it and you dare say that you are taking no sides my reference is a page essay in our local star tribute newspaper putting the whole conflict in perspective i will readily admit that i am no authority in this area however other posteers asserted that some muslims did join hands with croats and nazis in persecuting serbs in any case past actions do not in any way validate or legitimize what is happending there now i sincerely do apologize to the extent the author of the essay was wrong in making the assertion he made maybe some student of history may put this in perspective satya prabhakar thank you very much for clarifying your position and source apologies are accepted in good faith this absolutely was no attempt to bring you to your knees it is merely a suggestion to really check and re sheck your sources before throwing a flame into the net thanx again mohammed
talk.politics.mideast	re peace talks in article may nysernet org astein nysernet org alan stein writes it seems that to keep the peace talks going israel has to keep making goodwill gesture after goodwill gesture while palestinian arabs continue to go around hunting jews you know that putting something like this out on the newsgroup is only going to generate flames not discussion try adding some substance to the issue of gestures you mentioned if the peace talks are going to have any realistic chance of success the arabs are going to have to start reciprocating especially since they are the ones who will be getting tangible concessions in return for giving up only intangibles what is it you feel that israel has offered as a gesture what would you realistically expect to see presented by the arabs palestinians in the way of gesture if they keep trying to change the already agreed upon rules which seems to be one of their favorite games the israelis are not likely to be very confident that the intangibles they will receive at the bargaining table will be worth the parchment they re written on what are the rules that have been bent by arab actions it would seem that the israeli deportations were seen by the other side as an example of changing the rules it takes two to negotiate a peace it s time for the arabs to start doing their share alan h stein astein israel nysernet org tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca
talk.politics.mideast	egyptian arrested after mock threat to blow up iran s paris mission copyright agence france presse agence france presse headline egyptian arrested after mock threat to blow up iran s paris mission dateline paris body paris april afp an egyptian man held police at bay for several hours outside the iranian embassy here threatening to blow up the building to protest against terrorism and fundamentalism the man in his thirties who was identified only as an egyptian national displayed a banner outside the embassy gate and said he was in possession of several sticks of dynamite he threatened to set off he later surrendeed quietly to police who had blocked off the neighborhood saying he wanted to attract media attention to the dangers of islamic fundamentalism
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli destruction of mosque s in jerusalem in article eggertj may moses ll mit edu eggertj ll mit edu writes the cases aren t really comparable a project like a freeway requires public hearings court action appeals advance determination of restitution and so on the razing of the moghrabi district in east jerusalem happened within hours of the end of the hostilities of the day war the residents were given only two or three hours notice to pack up and find accomodations elsewhere they had no chance of public hearing debate appeal negotiation or anything it was get out or die in the rubble in today s jerusalem post magazine there is a feature story about the ongoing restoration of synagogues in the jewish quarter the author leah abramowitz writes that there were fifty seven synagogues in the quarter in all of which were destroyed some she says used as donkey stables the building shells that is i still find it really really hard to understand why the demolition of the buildings in front of the kotel continues to evoke more outrage than this everything is so much cheaper when it happens to the jews why bill coleman clmn midway uchicago edu
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article stjjb pep transfer stratus com khalid bunce hw stratus com khalid chishti writes for those of you who are against us to commit ground troops fine just lift the arms embargo on both sides since we know that serbs always got the heavy weapons form federal army wake up west and admit that you are the most uncivilized the most hypocratic and the most violent bunch on this earth khalid c akgun writes it is also so easy to blame the west for their indiffernce to real bosnian suffering how about the moslem world about billion how about them ha what they are doing to stop this massacre why the oil rich arab states make the bosnian crises a national interest of the west especially for europeans we all know they can do it over night don t we blaming west and asking why they don t put their life into danger seems to be the choice of muslims too i think who is sleeping is not the west they are wide awake they are trying to save the face please read my post carefully i am saying that lift the arms emargo and let the muslims defend themselves the point is these europians civilized countries neither want to get intervene militarily themselves and nor they like to see the muslims of the world to help the oppressed remember what happened almost one year ago when the so called un discovered some riffles in an iranian jet in bosnia the west is not indifferent in this matter they are siding with serbs by keeping this embargo on only muslim side okay on paper on both sides khalid disclamer these are my opinions only and they have nothing to do with my employer newsgroups soc culture arabic soc culture bosna herzgvna soc culture indian soc culture iranian soc culture jewish soc culture pakistan soc culture turkish soc culture yugoslavia soc culture afganistan talk politics mideast soc culture african soc cultur subject re europe vs muslim bosnians summary expires distribution organization stratus computer inc keywords
talk.politics.mideast	synagogues mosques and double standards bill coleman writes responding to a discussion about a mosque in jerusalem allegedly having been destroyed by israel bc in today s jerusalem post magazine there is a feature story about the bc ongoing restoration of synagogues in the jewish quarter the author bc leah abramowitz writes that there were fifty seven synagogues in the bc quarter in all of which were destroyed some she says used as bc donkey stables the building shells that is bc bc i still find it really really hard to understand why the demolition bc of the buildings in front of the kotel continues to evoke more outrage bc than this everything is so much cheaper when it happens to the jews bc bc why the double standard of human behavior regarding the jews must be manitained a perfect example is the outcry over the temporary removal of men who advocated murdering jews and destroying the state of israel compared to the deafening silence over the abusive treatment of jews in arab countries during the past years compare the tacit appoval that the world gives to muslims who randomly murder jewish civilians to the righteous indignation expressed if people in the occupied territories are kept from working in israel in an effort to reduce these random murders from occuring while everyone knows that no country is at all required to accept foreign workers except israel of course jewish blood has always been cheap the non jewish world ha never regarded any form of jewish suffering important except when the jews were the models of the powerless victim holding the high moral ground as it had been just after world war however as soon as the jewish people started to take care of themselves the ancient hatred of jews was unleashed again i doubt if the non jewish world is even capable of having any compassion towards jews as anti semitism is so ancient and so basic to both christianity and islam golda meir said that there would be peace when the arabs love their own children more than they hate the jews and while i know that there are more arab parents who love their children than those who would send their children out into the streets to throw rocks at men trained to defend themselves with guns the world is so obsessed by a hatred of jews trying to defend themselves that they have yet to even question the actions of those parents who not simply allow their children to do this but encourage them to throw themselves into harm s way even arab children are expendable if their tragic deaths are used in the neverending propoganda battle to blame israel and the jews for any misfortune befalling arabs in the middle east who is a jew a person whose integrity decays when unmoved by the knowledge of wrong done to other people a j heschel
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article sufneinne f curie systemsy cs yale edu ahmed shakil cs yale edu shakil waiz ahmed writes in article sueslinna g minerva cis yale edu jovanovic nick yale edu nick jovanovic writes muslim in ex yugoslavia was a nation not a religion in fact not all muslims in b h are followers of islam therefore there do did exist in ex yugoslavia christian muslims yeah that s it you ve really outdone yourself this time nick don t forget the davidian muslims islam is not a race it s a religion you can be white black fijian or alaskan this does not change the fact that muslim is a legal and political term defined constitutionally in former yugoslavia and therefore has meaning and consequences entirely independent and immaterial of any religious considerations it is a civil war in which the terms of secession are being negotiated with guns instead of pens the croat muslim and serb political leaders all chose to fight over the terms of secession instead of compromising and peacefully negotiating multilateral secession agreements terms of secession you are of course joking right nick nobody chose to fight bosnia and croatia were internationally recognized nations when the serbs attacked and started on their well documented genocide that makes them an outside aggressor it s a simple genocide a classical example of ethnic cleansing there is no question of civil war you only wish it were so more than residents of croatia and b h have not accepted the terms of secession which tudjman and izetbegovic unilaterally forced upon them croats and muslims may have a right to negotiated secession but they do not have a right to grab the entire territories of the former yugoslav republics of croatia and b h oh btw yugoslavia was internationally recognized when it was destroyed by tudjman izetbegovic milosevic and the international community led by germany if yugoslavia s borders could be changed against its will then certainly croatia s borders and b h s borders can be changed as well as i have stated many times the civil war in ex yugoslavia will end when the terms of secession borders etc for croatia and b h are finally agreed upon serbs croats and muslims will all have to make territorial concessions to reach such an agreement nick
talk.politics.mideast	re please show up in washington dc for bosnia may th in article c z r ah news cis umn edu prabhak giga cs umn edu satya prabhakar writes i guess that it was not acceptable because germany also chose a path of aggression simultaneously that put the interests of other countries in peril i wonder whether us or other countries would have risked themselves if only jews were persecuted and hitler had no imperialist ambitions i am no student of history and i am just asking questions i don t think they would have after all the u s was one of the countries that turned away jewish refugees when there was still time to get them out considered and rejected at the cabinet level then under what conditions should us interfere in foregin countries is an abstraction one must clarify before resorting to acrimonious accusations of religious bigotry and such as i understand it international law provides the right of any country to intervene to prevent genocide i think once the world court has ruled that genocide is being committed if a human rights czar is appointed at the u n we could have international monitors recording events and responses of local officials and develop an objective basis this could be backed by adjudication at the international court of justice and enforcement through a rapid deployment force under the u n secretary general s command i would like to see the u n directly impose icj rulings whenever feasible without the possibility of vetos at the un security council much as the president can t veto a u s supreme court ruling the u s is now supporting the effort to appoint the hr czar the third world opposition is led by three countries china iran and pakistan what company is pakistan keeping the u s is also reconsidering its opposition to the u n force initially envisaged in the charter although under the control of the security council the un sc is quite a flawed body rogue governments like the prc have even threatened their veto in the last few months to block the move to place u n troops in bosnia under chapter instead of if i have the numbers straight where they could have moved from being a monitoring to an enforcement force without requiring further sc action the prc even continues to threaten using its veto on u n action despite the icj ruling the current set up requires the sc to enforce icj rulings peace gul agha
talk.politics.mideast	re news that i missed in article sv t d genesis mcs com arf genesis mcs com jack schmidling writes in article c vext lxn bony bony com jake bony bony com jake livni writes in article may ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes why is it then that when the british iranians and uae refer to occupied territory they mean territory in dispute in israel but not in their own affairs i suppose for the same reason jews call the occupied territory judea and sumaria it s called propaganda actually judea and samaria are proper geographical names just like asia minor or lake michigan judea and samaria are even used in an atlas published in what used to be ussr circa that i have at home the government of the ussr was of course quite hostile towards israel and would hardly engage in a pro israel propaganda i would be willing to mail a photocopy of the relevant page to mr schmidling with relevant words underlined to simplify his search if he promises to report to the net afterwards and if you repeat lies often enough people start to believe it mr schmidling is to be congtatualted for being living exception to this general rule for although he is almost without peer in both the number of lies posted and in the number of times he repeats them he hasn t found many people who believe his lies yet js g feygin
talk.politics.mideast	re israel an apartheid state not quite in article spam maths adelaide edu au jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au joseph askew writes in article srg cinnj early bird think com shaig think com shai guday writes in article spam maths adelaide edu au jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au joseph askew writes if you examine these i am sure you will discover that the arab party member did not have the power base that his jewish counterpart had right arabs have been voting in israel for how long and in all that time not one arab ever gained enough of a personal following to get his fellow party members to put in a ministry this is about as likely as sprouting wings and flying to rio what basis do you have for explaining this odd failure you seem very confident that you are right exactly how do you know why are you sure it has nothing to do with how long they have been voting as much as how they have been voting pick up a list of the labor parties proposals for mk prior to the election and pay attention to the order correlate this with the number of arab party members eligible to vote in party elections further correlate this with the voting results from arab areas lo and behold you will discover that israeli arab labor party members did not band together unanimously or en large for a select group of arab candidates this problem is further exacerbated by the rifts between israeli arabs some claim membership to right wing parties while others vote for parties that do not pass the minimum cutoff i worked within the labor party during the late s elections not this last one as a volunteer and was privy to the voting results that were returned from the local delegates elected at the time the system was structured differently but it did not cease to amaze me that there was no massive effort to lobby for arab reps by their own delegates exactly what basis do you have for saying this when the labour party has never put an arab into a cabinet post and insists its coalition members do the same why and on what basis are you reassuring me in the face of years of discriminatory practise quite simply if all eligible arab voters became members of the labor party and voted they would be able to command more than of the delegates this is a power base that can not be ignored especially when they are not ranked high in the party once again due to lack of political power i have seen how the labor party works from the inside and my experience has been that as in most political situations the mks act out of their own self interest and to answer your question i broke with labor because i felt that they were heeding too much to the right wing and ultra orthodox coalition members from the other front july translation of ha aretz article racism in the knesset this attitude which until recently had not even aroused criticism being so natural and so deeply embossed upon people s hearts holds that there are knesset members who despite having been elected by tens of thousands of votes are not entitled to be full partners in the body which represents the people of israel we are not speaking here of political discrimination which would be bad enough in itself but of racial discrimination the proof one of the compromises proposed was that mk mahamid an arab yigal should be replaced by tamar gojanski a jew yigal from the same party it was not the member s party which was considered unfit but his race fair enough my take on the matter and i will admit to the possibility that this might be seen differently is that this was a dummy argument if he was sitting on the committee then someone else obviously would not be in drumming up support for his seat mk would not be averse to using this argument or it could be used on his behalf as to the proof presented in this article i would find it very interesting to know who proposed the compromise along with a followup describing how the matter stands was resolved let me just take this opportunity to say that i deplore such actions and groundless justifications a test of self confidence by gid on levi ha aretz july but not to worry even now the jewish mind is contriving devices the new committee chair roni milo has already announced that he will set up subcommittees aplenty for his committee thus he will decide where it is permissible for mahamid to participate and where not a solution such as this could by the way also have been adopted for the rest of the committees thereby completely eliminating the fear of state secrets being leaked to the enemy and removing the stain of discrimination from the knesset for the record roni milo is a brash mk self described from the likud note not labor quite frankly i don t think anything he would say could surprise me annoy and aggravate yes surprise no do you accept that as documentation yes i do and thank you for providing it i would be most interested in knowing how things turned out anyone shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninja of the skies cambridge ma
talk.politics.mideast	re synagogues mosques and double standards mark ira kaufman writes a perfect example is the outcry over the temporary removal of men who advocated murdering jews and destroying the state of israel compared to the deafening silence over the abusive treatment of jews in arab countries during the past years never mind the fact that these people were denied the right to a fair trial and israel was supposed to uphold western values eh i doubt if the non jewish world is even capable of having any compassion towards jews as anti semitism is so ancient and so basic to both christianity and islam check your facts before bashing islam again while there may be muslim anti semites this is no way a tenet of the religion saying anti semitism is basic to islam is implicating the entire muslim world based on a selective sampling of a few people and it flies in the face of what islam teaches peace nizam arain what makes the universe so hard to comprehend internet narain uiuc edu is that there is nothing nextmail narain sumter cso uiuc edu to compare it with
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians joachim martillo writes what a dope there is no value for mohammed elabdellaoui to be here at a western university third worldist and islamic brain rot has made it impossible for him to acquire and analyze facts appropriately yes the typical primitive muslim psychopathological psychotic behavior upon hearing or reading a disagreeable fact start whining about the jews what a jerk you should go back to your mindlessly stupid rd world country your brain has no business in a civilized first world country joachim carlo santos martillo ajami if you were to substitute the word jew jewish in this posting where you see the word muslim islamic switch joachim and mohammed s names around and then repost this you would get a flood of messages attacking the author as an anti semite and rightly so the author of this crap is a racist pure and simple he obviously has no qualms about being open with it either unlike some other arab and mulsim bashers on the net now i for one am not going to look at joachim s posting and infer from it that all jews think this way sure there might be some but this view is not a part of judaism and it is stupid to believe that all jews minds are this twisted however some muslims might look at joachim s flame as a reaffirmation of their worst fears about jews that they all hate arabs and are racists for this reason i am alarmed that not more jews on the net have spoken out against what joachim has said they have the chance to possibly change the anti semitic views of some people on the net to show them that all jews do not hate all arabs and muslims just like all muslims do not hate all jews yet they are missing that chance remember to many people silence implies consent peace nizam arain what makes the universe so hard to comprehend internet narain uiuc edu is that there is nothing nextmail narain sumter cso uiuc edu to compare it with
talk.politics.mideast	re synagogues mosques and double standards narain ih nxt cso uiuc edu nizam arain writes mark ira kaufman writes a perfect example is the outcry over the temporary removal of men who advocated murdering jews and destroying the state of israel compared to the deafening silence over the abusive treatment of jews in arab countries during the past years never mind the fact that these people were denied the right to a fair trial and israel was supposed to uphold western values eh i doubt if the non jewish world is even capable of having any compassion towards jews as anti semitism is so ancient and so basic to both christianity and islam your doubts are unsubstantiated have some faith in us check your facts before bashing islam again while there may be muslim anti semites this is no way a tenet of the religion saying anti semitism is yes i agree lets say i call my self a xxx i go and shoot your family in cold blood does that mean that xxx is responsible no i am people tend to associate others with color creed etc it is a form of racism basic to islam is implicating the entire muslim world based on a selective sampling of a few people and it flies in the face of what islam teaches peace nizam arain what makes the universe so hard to comprehend internet narain uiuc edu is that there is nothing nextmail narain sumter cso uiuc edu to compare it with mohammad r khan khan nova gmi edu after july please send mail to mkhan nyx cs du edu if responses to this letter post bounce e mail me at the nyx account
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians jovanovic nick yale edu nick jovanovic writes in article sufneinne f curie systemsy cs yale edu ahmed shakil cs yale edu shakil waiz ahmed writes in article sueslinna g minerva cis yale edu jovanovic nick yale edu nick jovanovic writes muslim in ex yugoslavia was a nation not a religion in fact not all muslims in b h are followers of islam therefore there do did exist in ex yugoslavia christian muslims yeah that s it you ve really outdone yourself this time nick don t forget the davidian muslims islam is not a race it s a religion you can be white black fijian or alaskan this does not change the fact that muslim is a legal and political term defined constitutionally in former yugoslavia and therefore has meaning and consequences entirely independent and immaterial of any religious considerations not to muslims it is a civil war in which the terms of secession are being negotiated with guns instead of pens the croat muslim and serb political leaders all chose to fight over the terms of secession instead of compromising and peacefully negotiating multilateral secession agreements that could be arguable for bandwith and flames sake i wont say more terms of secession you are of course joking right nick nobody chose to fight bosnia and croatia were internationally recognized nations when the serbs attacked and started on their well documented genocide that makes them an outside aggressor it s a simple genocide a classical example of ethnic cleansing there is no question of civil war you only wish it were so it is a civil war but the serbian generals who allow rape are not fighting fair yah i know war is hell those serbian generals are propretuating both more than residents of croatia and b h have not accepted the terms of secession which tudjman and izetbegovic unilaterally forced upon them croats and muslims may have a right to negotiated secession but they do not have a right to grab the entire territories of the former yugoslav republics of croatia and b h lines and bordres money power fear oh btw yugoslavia was internationally recognized when it was destroyed by tudjman izetbegovic milosevic and the international community led by germany if yugoslavia s borders could be changed against its will then certainly croatia s borders and b h s borders can be changed as well let s change canadian bordres while we are at it i see this as civvil war sp borders as i have stated many times the civil war in ex yugoslavia will end when the terms of secession borders etc for croatia and b h are finally agreed upon serbs croats and muslims will all have to make territorial concessions to reach such an agreement possibly i do agree that it is a civil war which makes the donation of humanitarian aid even more complex i mean serbs are bleeding too and i heardthat a few croats had raped serbian women unconfurmable at this point nick mohammad r khan khan nova gmi edu after july please send mail to mkhan nyx cs du edu if responses to this letter post bounce e mail me at the nyx account
talk.politics.mideast	re news that i missed in article may jarvis csri toronto edu gfeygin unicorn eecg toronto edu gennady feygin writes actually judea and samaria are proper geographical names just like asia minor or lake michigan another name for this region is cis jordan jim eggertj ll mit edu jim eggert
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians jovanovic nick yale edu nick jovanovic writes as i have stated many times the civil war in ex yugoslavia will end when the terms of secession borders etc for croatia and b h are finally agreed upon serbs croats and muslims will all have to make territorial concessions to reach such an agreement muslims already have they accepted the vance owen plan that gives of the population serbian statistics put it at only of the territory they gave some totally muslim villages and areas to croatia and serbia they in effect gave the serbs the land they grabbed while slaughtering the muslims anbd raping their women and expelling the survivors still the serbs not bosnian serbs because the real bosnian serbs are fighting with muslims to defend bosnia from serbs those so called bosnian serbs refused to be part of bosnia and wanted a greater serbia still those serbs refused they have the necessary weapons to kill more muslims and grab more territory nick
talk.politics.mideast	update on saudi crackdown on human rights league clarinews clarinet com bahaa elkoussy writes upi and the newspapers who are reporting this being all owned by saudis i wonder how secure they are feeling by reporting all of these things maybe saudi arabia is allowed to have all the human rights violations it can have nobody is including them in any list those are designed for independent states cairo egypt upi the saudi government ordered the firing and why is this reported from cairo disbarment of six saudi human rights activists one week after they formed the country s first human rights group which has been condemned by the kingdom s highest religious authorities saudi media reported friday two saudi owned london based daily newspapers reported the dismissal of five of the activists who last week formed the committee for the protection of legal rights in the kingdom to hear allegations of human rights abuses the newspapers said orders were issued to dismiss abdallah al jabreen from his job with the iftaa department saudi arabia s highest religious advisory body hamad al seleifeh from the eduaction ministry and mohamed al muss eri abdallah al hamed and abdallah al tuwaijri from two universities in riyadh the saudi capital licenses to practice as law attorneys were also ordered revoked for suleiman al marshoudi and al muss eri and their law offices and any national branches were ordered closed for the same reason saudi interior minister prince nayef ben abdel aziz a member of the royal family rejected criticism of human rights violations in the kingdom in an interview broadcast friday he said nations and organizations say they protect human rights or demand respect of human rights but at the same time refuse to intervene in bosnia herzegovina where people are being killed raped and destroyed while even barred from carrying arms where is the humanity and human rights of which those are talking the prince said in the interview broadcast by the saudi owned london based middle east broadcasting center can somebody teach this man some logic what is the relationship between a human rights league in saudia and human rights in bosnia i guess if we wanted to know what is in italy we should know what is in brasil syrian joke prince nayef who controls saudi police and prisons said the kingdom s enforcement of islamic laws gives his country one of the their claim of following islamic law is the biggest disservice that they ever did to islam but hosni amin executive director of the cairo based arab organization for human rights said his group has documented evidence of human rights abuses in saudi arabia he said the aohr supported the but how about human rights in egypt mr amin i guess i am fighting on too many fronts i might retire very soon
talk.politics.mideast	re peace talks in article bf f news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes in article may nysernet org astein nysernet org alan stein writes it seems that to keep the peace talks going israel has to keep making goodwill gesture after goodwill gesture while palestinian arabs continue to go around hunting jews you know that putting something like this out on the newsgroup is only going to generate flames not discussion try adding some substance to the issue of gestures you mentioned what is it you feel that israel has offered as a gesture what would you realistically expect to see presented by the arabs palestinians in the way of gesture timbo israel has not been recognized as a state by the arabs except for egypt of course isn t that a gesture what has israel offered well it has been calling for peace talks for years asked for economic relations and asked for diplomatic ties what else is there would you have israel sacrifice its security nay i think not peace pete
talk.politics.mideast	re the mufti again meanwhile they support the genocide of bosnians in article yzkcu cunyvm bitnet yaakov kayman yzkcu cunyvm bitnet writes so why not condemn the mufti for his nazi leanings and condemn all his supporters while also condemning the similarly genocidal killing of innocents muslim or not in bosnoia herzegovina hatred and bigotry remain just that no matter who practices them indeed yaqouv just like the ugly hatred spread by kahane and kahanists right or they are exempt from condemnation and allowed to hate i know you ll answer me indirectly it doesn t bother me a bit keep it up steel who s never pissed off
talk.politics.mideast	west bank and baseball it has be reported that the national baseball league has been spotted in the west bank they were recruiting pitchers
talk.politics.mideast	re peace talks in article may news columbia edu pgf cunixb cc columbia edu peter garfiel freeman writes in article bf f news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes in article may nysernet org astein nysernet org alan stein writes it seems that to keep the peace talks going israel has to keep making goodwill gesture after goodwill gesture while palestinian arabs continue to go around hunting jews you know that putting something like this out on the newsgroup is only going to generate flames not discussion try adding some substance to the issue of gestures you mentioned what is it you feel that israel has offered as a gesture what would you realistically expect to see presented by the arabs palestinians in the way of gesture timbo israel has not been recognized as a state by the arabs except for egypt of course isn t that a gesture what has israel offered well it has been calling for peace talks for years asked for economic relations and asked for diplomatic ties what else is there would you have israel sacrifice its security nay i think not peace pete yea i think not also israel s issue is security so any outcomes of negotiation certainly need to address isreal s perception of this issue the problem is is defining by outsiders by israel and by the arabs themselves what is the issue to the arab side is it palestinian statehood is it that israel as a state should not and must not be allowed to exist is it that the existence of a self governing non muslim state in the islamic world is intolerable what just as the dividing line between israel fighting for security and israel fighting to expand is often hard to discern by outsiders especially to the arab world so the rationale behind the arab struggle to undermine israel in any way could either be based on visceral rejectionism or a sense of being wronged that still values peace who knows which anyway in these talks what gestures would you think would be seen by israel as substantial tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca
talk.politics.mideast	re a question about armenians in article c t xj unix amherst edu eerginel unix amherst edu erdem erginel asked ee no no flaming here just a simple question with a simple answer ee as far as i know most of the armenians belong to the gregorian orthodox ee faith and such was the case in nineteenth century ottoman empire it is ee also known that some armenian communities were converted into catholicism ee and protestantism by the western european missionaries in this period the vast majority of armenians in eastern anatolia were gregorian or armenian apostolic there was however a higher percentage of non gregorian armenians in cilicia closer to the mediterranean in adana marash aintab etc ee another known fact is that almost half of the armenians living in anatolia ee did not speak any armenian but used turkish in their everyday lives this is not true while it was forbidden for armenians to speak armenian in certain areas of cilician armenia most all armenians spoke armenian in fact turks who interacted with armenians also spoke armenian for sure most all armenians especially men also knew turkish in order to function in larger society ee my question is given so many separations in the armenian community what ee was the common denominator of the armenian people that allowed armenian ee nationalism to emerge in the nineteenth century as i stated religion ee was not uniform unlike the greeks and many armenians couldn t even speak ee armenian i would like to know what factors brought the armenians in the ee ottoman empire together and led to the formation of an armenian ee consciousness the armenians in turkey were persecuted because they were armenian regardless of the specific branch of christianity they professed the resultant armenian nationalism was in direct reaction to this persecution even at the later stages of wwi and after the genocide many armenians who were converted to islam were also exterminated because they continued as armenian moslems this practice continued well into the s by ataturk in parallel with the policy of clearing out pockets of steadfast islamic fundamentalism many of these converted armenians ironically in order to stay alive were staunch moslems ee any information will be appreciated you answered your own question the common thread throughout your inquiry was the word armenian ee regards david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia has not learned a lesson in s d p a center for regional studies anatolia and has forgotten the p o box punishment inflicted on it cambridge ma late turkish president turgut ozal
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article c x m ejf news cis umn edu prabhak giga cs umn edu satya prabhakar writes mohamed s sadek writes i like what mr joseph biden had to say yesterday in the senate condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans and calling that moral rape he went on to say that the reason for that is out right religious bigotry actually this strife in yugoslavia goes back a long way bosinan muslims in collaboration with the nazis did to serbians after the first world war what serbs are doing to muslims now this is not a fresh case of ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga of intense mutual hatred destruction not taking sides in this perpetual war does not amount to religious bigotry it could just be helplessness with regards to bringing peace to a region that does not even know the meaning of the word what a lie ask the victims of the nazis don t take the bosnian muslims word for it ask the holoucost survivors who helped them you will hear that the bosnian muslims among others helped them i also do object to the term ethnic cleansing since what is happening in bosnia is not ethnic cleansing they all have the same ethnicity what is different is religion they are orthodox christians catholic christians and muslims it s religious cleansing also watching people being rounded up and slaughtered by the slitting of the throat raped collectively and systematically driven out of their homes by the millions tortured in concentration camps maimed and does indeed amount to moral rape nothing in the history justifies what s happening satya prabhakar mohamed
talk.politics.mideast	organization of islamic conference dear friends hi i need some information about the organization ofislamic conference oic does anyone know if there are books articles or journals that contains information regarding this organization if you know would you please send me an e mail at my address i thank you in advance and hope to hear soon since i need thisat present regards aziz
talk.politics.mideast	re labour s enclaves policy important in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org in real life elias davidson quotes israel shahak a nutcase quoting a crackpot next time post this to rec humor or perhaps alt conspiracy jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians from article may iastate edu by jakhan iastate edu javed ahmed khan actually this strife in yugoslavia goes back a long way bosinan muslims in collaboration with the nazis did to serbians after the first world war what serbs are doing to muslims now this is not a fresh case of i dont think you re correct here there have been no reports of the bosnians muslims supporting the nazis in their genocide against the serbians the fact is that the croat govt using their secret police called the ustache i think were the prime agents of the nazis in yugoslavia against the serbs javed first of all this is not a strife this is a massacre of innocent moslem poeples by the christian west since ottoman lost the control of balkans many tens and hundereds of millions of muslem peoples turks albanians bosnians and others have been tortured raped massacred and driven out of their homes by the cristians of both the region and europe some lucky ones escaped to relative safety in turkiye the remaining others are being finished now by local christians the usa and the rest of europe the christian west is maintaining a tight arms ambargo on the muslem peoples of bosnia so they cannot deffend themslves while letting christian serbs and croats torture rape and massacre the innocent moslem peoples of bosnia it took christian europe for almost six centuries to achieve this objective of theirs and i do not think they will let it up this will go on untill every single moslem person bosnian turk albanian etc is tortured raped massacred and driven out of their homes
talk.politics.mideast	according to greek government there are no turks in western thrace in article may news uiowa edu mau herky cs uiowa edu mau napoleon writes there are treaties signed between greece and turkey which speak about a moslem minority in thraki and not of a turkish minority in thraki the reason they talk about moslems and not about turks is that the majority of these people are not ethnik turks they are pomaks and gypsies oboy this is exciting first you discuss your non existent literature tastes then your fantasies and now your choices of historical revisionism are you related to arromdians of the asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle the agreement on the exchange of minorities uses the term turks which demonstrates what is actually meant by the previous reference to muslims the fact that the greek governments also mention the existence of a few thousand non turkish muslims does not change the essential reality that there lives in western thrace a much bigger turkish minority the pomaks are also a muslim people whom all the three nations bulgarians turks and greeks consider as part of themselves do you know how the muslim turkish minority was organized according to the agreements it also proves that the turkish people are trapped in greece and the greek people are free to settle anywhere in the world the greek authorities deny even the existence of a turkish minority they pursue the same denial in connection with the macedonians of greece talk about oppression in addition in the democratic greek parliament passed law no virtually taking over the administration of the vakiflar and other charitable trusts they have ceased to be self supporting religious and cultural entities talk about fascism the greek governments are attempting to appoint the muftus irrespective of the will of the turkish minority as state official although the orthodox church has full authority in similar matters in greece the muslim turkish minority will have no say in electing its religious leaders talk about democracy the government of greece has recently destroyed an islamic convention in komotini such destruction which reflects an attitude against the muslim turkish cultural heritage is a violation of the lausanne convention as well as the so called greek constitution which is supposed to guarantee the protection of historical monuments the government of greece on the other hand is building new churches in remote villages as a complementary step toward hellenizing the region the longstanding use of the adjective turkish in titles and on signboards is prohibited the greek courts have ordered the closure of the turkish teachers association the komotini turkish youth association and the ksanti turkish association on grounds that there are no turks in western thrace such community associations had been active until but they were first told to remove the word turkish on their buildings and on their official papers and then eventually close down this is also the final verdict november of the greek high court helsinki watch a well known human rights group had been investigating the plight of the turkish minority in greece in august their findings were published in a report titled destroying ethnic identity turks of greece the report confirmed gross violations of the human rights of the turkish minority by the greek authorities it says for instance the greek government recently destroyed an islamic convent in komotini such destruction which reflects an attitude against the muslim turkish cultural heritage is a violation of the lausanne convention helsinki watch problems of turks in western thrace continue ankara a a in a page report of the helsinki watch it is stated that the turkish minority in western thrace is still faced with problems and stipulated that the discriminatory policy being implemented by the greek government be brought to an end the report on western thrace emphasized that the greek government should grant social and political rights to all the members of minorities that are equal to those enjoyed by greek citizens and in addition they must recognize the existence of the turkish minority in western thrace and grant them the right to identify themselves as turks newspot may greece isolates west thrace turks the xanthi independent mp ahmet faikoglu said that the greek state is trying to cut all contacts and relations of the turkish minority with turkey pointing out that while the greek minority living in istanbul is called greek by ethnic definition only the religion of the minority in western thrace is considered in an interview with the greek newspaper ethnos he said i am a greek citizen of turkish origin the individuals of the minority living in western trace are also turkish emphasizing the education problem for the turkish minority in western thrace faikoglu said that according to an agreement signed in greece must distribute textbooks printed in turkey in turkish minority schools in western thrace recalling his activities and those of komotini independent mp dr sadik ahmet to defend the rights of the turkish minority faikoglu said in fact we helped greece because we prevented greece the cradle of democracy from losing face before european countries by forcing the greek government to recognize our legal rights on turco greek relations he pointed out that both countries are predestined to live in peace for geographical and historical reasons and said that turkey and greece must resist the foreign powers who are trying to create a rift between them by cooperating adding that in turkey he observed that there was will to improve relations with greece newspot january macedonian human rights activists to face trial in greece two ethnic macedonian human rights activists will face trial in athens for alleged crimes against the greek state according to a court summons no obtained by mils hristos sideropoulos and tashko bulev or anastasios bulis have been charged under greek criminal law for making comments in an athenian magazine sideropoulos and bulev gave an interview to the greek weekly magazine ena on march and said that they as macedonians were denied basic human rights in greece and would field an ethnic macedonian candidate for the up coming greek general election bulev said in the interview i am not greek i am macedonian sideropoulos said in the article that greece should recognise macedonia the allegations regarding territorial aspirations against greece are tales we are in a panic to secure the border at a time when the borders and barriers within the eec are falling the main charge against the two according to the court summons was that they have spread intentionally false information which might create unrest and fear among the citizens and might affect the public security or harm the international interests of the country greece the greek state does not recognise the existence of a macedonian ethnicity there are believed to be between to ethnic macedonians living within greece largely concentrated in the north it is a crime against the greek state if anyone declares themselves macedonian in greece serbia yugoslavia and bulgaria partioned macedonia into three pieces in albania took macedonian villages the part under serbo yugoslav occupation broke away in as the independent republic of macedonia there are million macedonians in the republic in bulgaria in albania and in serbia proper sideropoulos has been a long time campaigner for macedonian human rights in greece and lost his job as a forestry worker a few years ago he was even exiled to an obscure greek island in the mediteranean only pressure from amnesty international forced the greek government to allow him to return to his home town of florina lerin in northern greece aegean macedonia where the majority of ethnic macedonians live balkan watchers see the sideropoulos affair as a show trial in which greece is desperate to clamp down on internal dissent especially when it comes to the issue of recognition for its northern neighbour the republic of macedonia last year the state department of the united states condemned greece for its bad treatment of ethnic macedonians and turks who largely live in western thrace but it remains to be seen if the us government will do anything until the presidential elections are over m i l s rue du craetveld kraatveldstraat orce nikolov brussels belgium skopje macedonia tel fax tel fax modem n acc famibank citibank belgium serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re baltic states and realism and virvir drivel in article sv r f m zip eecs umich edu sechrest dip eecs umich edu stuart sechrest writes memoirs of an armenian army officer translated to english and published by a member of american near east relief organization gives the whole account of the genocide of all turkish and moslem people in armenia organized and executed by armenian government and army also gives account of countless other massacres and atrocities against the turkish people in armenia actually it is leonard r as in ramsden hartill ditto source men are like that by leonard ramsden hartill the bobbs merrill company indianapolis pages memoirs of an armenian officer who participated in the genocide of million muslim people but as you point out so often there is no use arguing with easily verified facts as the turks had solved the armenian problem in turkey by slaying or driving the armenians out of the country so we now proceeded to solve the tartar problem in armenia we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the tartars and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian from l r hartill men are like that the bobbs merrill company london p you have set up straw horses and knocked them down i m not impressed let us ask armenian scholars shall we source k s papazian patriotism perverted baikar press boston pp it seems that terrorism against their own co nationals has been a prominent part of the revolutionary activities of the dashnag leaders of the caucasus organized to fight the turks these chieftains have been more successful in their fight against their armenian opponents in turkey and the caucasus very often defenseless and innocent p we were defeated p the fact remains however that the leaders of the turkish armenian section of the dashnagtzoutune did not carry out their promise of loyalty to the turkish cause when the turks entered the war and a call was sent for armenian volunteers to fight the turks on the caucasian front p thousands of armenians from all over the world flocked to the standards of such famous fighters as antranik kery dro etc the armenian volunteer regiments rendered valuable service to the russian army in the years of by the way here is the entire paragraph we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the tartars and then proceeded in the work of extermination our troops surrounded village after village little resistance was offered our artillery knocked the huts into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable and inhabitants fled from them into fields bullets and bayonets completed the work some of the tartars escaped of course they found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border into turkey the rest were killed and so it is that the whole length of the borderland of russian armenia from nakhitchevan to akhalkalaki from the hot plains of ararat to the cold mountain plateau of the north were dotted with mute mournful ruins of tartar villages they are quiet now those villages except for howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the scattered bones of the dead ohanus appressian men are like that p now wait there is more armenians did slaughter the entire muslim population of van armenians did slaughter of muslim population of bitlis armenians did slaughter of muslim population of erzurum armenians did slaughter of muslim population of diyarbakir armenians did slaughter of muslim population of mamuretulaziz armenians did slaughter of muslim population of sivas armenians did slaughter the entire muslim population of the x soviet armenia mccarthy j muslims and minorities the population of ottoman anatolia and the end of the empire new york university press new york pp karpat k ottoman population the university of wisconsin press hovannisian r g armenia on the road to independence university of california press berkeley and los angeles pp shaw s j on armenian collaboration with invading russian armies in history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey volume ii reform revolution republic the rise of modern turkey london cambridge university press pp gochnak armenian newspaper published in the united states may serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article c e b a ecf toronto edu srini ecf toronto edu kandala srinivas writes my reference is a page essay in our local star tribute newspaper putting the whole conflict in perspective i will readily admit that i am no authority in this area however other posteers asserted that some muslims did join hands with croats and nazis in persecuting serbs in any case past actions do not and the best evidence you can find is second hand hearsay from an unnamed source you may indeed be confusing some muslims with nazi armenians altogether nazi armenians served in various units in the german wehrmacht according to ara j berkian in predominantly armenian army units in german army units in various working units and in the waffen ss amazing how the discussions change from one topic to another i really disagree with you but maybe you know better here is the issue at hand after all who remembers today the extermination of the tartars adolf hitler august ruth w rosenbaum durusoy the turkish holocaust turk soykirimi p the crime of systematic cleansing by mass killing and extermination of the muslim population in soviet republic of armenia karabag bosnia and herzegovina is an islamic holocaust comparable to the extermination of million muslims by the armenian government during the wwi and of over million european jews during the wwii tovfik kasimov azeri leader september today s ethnic cleansing policies by the serbian dictatorship against croatians and muslims of yugoslavia as well as the soviet republic of armenia s against the muslim population of neighboring azerbaijan are really no different in their aspirations than the genocide perpetrated by the armenian government years ago against the turkish and kurdish muslims and sephardic jews living in these lands cebbar leygara kurdish leader october serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	the armenians did not form a distinct race in article c t xj unix amherst edu eerginel unix amherst edu erdem erginel writes my question is given so many separations in the armenian community what was the common denominator of the armenian people that allowed armenian nationalism to emerge in the nineteenth century as i stated religion there are various contradictory views on the origin of the armenians the name is to be found in the darian inscriptions in the form armina or aramaniya is to be found in the inscription on the bistun monument the following references to the armenians are to be found in the bistun cuneiform inscription of dara vishdasb b c the monarch dara said i sent my servant to arminam armeniya on reaching arminam armeniya to the country town of zozo to armaniya armeniya according to karakashian as for armenia the equivalent of the armin or arminik of the persians this is more recent than the word ararat and is to be found used in the dara inscriptions for haiastan saint martin the name armenie has been given since very early times by almost all the various eastern peoples to the territory referred to by the armenians as haiastan it was known to the syrians as armenia and to the arabs as ermeniyye others believe that urartu was known in the time of the medes as harminap which was later modified by the persians to arminia ar refers to a place as in ararat archish aruyr archar arshav arazen and aror while men is used to refer to spirit thought or human being and therefore armen would appear to signify the people of that place g alishan believes that according to our national vocabulary haik is the diminutive form of hai and that hai is the name of our nation our nation is in no way connected with the word armen that foreigners apply to our people it would thus appear that armenia is a place name that armen is the name of the people who lived there and that these are in no way connected with the word hai haik and haiastan armenian historians believe haik to have been a great hero from whom the armenian people took the name hai but the mere resemblance between the words haik and hai constitutes no real proof and in any case no such theory appears before the time of moses of khoren haiasa the following studies show quite clearly that hai and haiasa were no more than general names used by the hittites to refer to the region known as armenia professor hachadurian haiasa was the general name used in hittite inscriptions for upper armenia yensen in his hittites and armenians tries to prove that hai is identical with the hittite hatio in other words that hai is a hittite word research however has proved this erroneous and shown that hai was derived from hatio mortman s attempt to read the urartu inscriptions as armenian met with no success as for greek there is no point in even mentioning it the resemblance between the words haiasa and haiastan is so obvious that we may well accept haiasa as the oldest form of haiastan let us now cast a brief glance on how the words hai haikazan and haiastan entered our older works according to karakashian the word haik is never to be found employed with reference to a leader of the armenian people prior to moses of khoren nor is it ever found employed in the forms haika or haykazn agahangelos and puzant use the word as a title or a place name he improved and developed haiastan etc if the word had referred to a nation and had been derived from hai or haik they could also have used the words haikak and haykazn in a number of places according to professor sayce who deciphered a number of hittite inscriptions in the hittite language the suffix ha is used to specify quality or species the words haddanas haddina were used by the assyrians to refer to the hittites with the transformation of the d between the two a letters to y hadinasdani was in this way transformed to haiastan professor grechmer fully agrees with this point of view but regards the significance and explanation so far accorded to the terms hai and haistan as quite unsatisfactory he finds however that a solution to this problem is brought nearer by the name haiasa which is so frequently found in bogazkoy from b c onwards forrer takes haiasa as referring to upper armenia in that case it seems likely that haiasa was actually a part of armenia the suffix dan is of anatolian origin the real root is hayasa which refers to the country of the hayasas e chantre writes as follows on the subject of the ethnological and anthropological characteristics of the armenian people the armenians in russia may be characterized as follows almost all of them are brachycephalic or leptocephalic very dark above average height an aissores asian group with close ties with certain kurdish tribes and azerbaijan peoples according to j deniker from the philological point of view the armenian and kurds may be regarded as belonging to the iranian group the armenians are descended from various elements and from a very mixed race their average height varies between and according to the region they are almost always short headed with skull measurements of as a race they belong to the indo afghan assyrian turkic family professor rene vernont writes as follows the armenians are a mixture of semites turk kurds and mongols but some of them display armenian features e g height a little above average fair complexion dark hair dark eyes very often a hooked nose and a rather wide mouth investigations carried out by n kossovitch on the links between armenian blood groups and their anthropological characteristics led him to the conclusion that the armenians did not form a distinct race serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	of azeri soil is now occupied by x soviet armenia talk about in article may seas smu edu pts seas smu edu paul thompson schreiber writes by nancy najarian huddled around one measly candle or kerosene lamp in the cold how to make others feel the isolation of living in a country of million people completely blockaded by hostile neighbors prevented from receiving adequate supplies of fuel to keep the electric plants running hospitals open schools in operation will anybody a typical armenian revisionist as in the past in x soviet armenia and today in azerbaijan for utopic and idiotic causes the armenians brought havoc to their neighbors a short sighted and misplaced nationalistic fervor with a wrong agenda and anachronistic methods the armenians continue to become pernicious for the region as usual they will be treated accordingly by their neighbors nagorno karabag is a mountainous enclave that lies completely within azerbaijan with no border or history whatsoever connected to x soviet armenia besides the geographical aspect nagorno karabag is the historic homeland and the cradle of the artistic and literary heritage of azerbaijan which renders the armenian claims preposterous even lunatic no one in his or her mind could have imagined that one day such a devious turn of event could have plagued the azeris one cannot even imagine the reverse case to occur for the armenians either would have slaughtered the azerbaijanis or put them to forced exile to maintain their own majority where was she an appeal to mankind during the last three years azerbaijan and its multinational population are vainly fighting for justice within the limits of the soviet union all humanitarian constitutional human rights guaranteed by the un charter universal declaration of human rights helsinki agreements human problems international forums documents signed by the soviet union all of them are violated the ussr s president government bodies do not defend azerbaijan though they are all empowered to take necessary measures to guarantee life and peace the strong army of armenian terrorists with moscow s tacit consent wages an undeclared war of annihilation against azerbaijan as a result a part of azerbaijan has been occupied and annexed hundreds of people killed thousands wounded some azerbaijanis have been brutally and inhumanly deported from the armenian ssr their historical homeland together with them russians and kurds have also been driven out a part of them now settled in azerbaijan some turkish meskhetians lezghins and representatives of other caucasian nationalities who escaped from the central asia where the president and government bodies did not guarantee them the life and peace also suffered from these deportations one of the scandalous vandalisms directed not only against azerbaijan science but the world civilization as well is the armenian extremists destruction of the karabakh scientific experimental base of the institute of genetics and selection of the academy of sciences of the azerbaijan ssr we beg you for humanitarian help and political assistance for the honour and dignity of million azerbaijanis are violated its territory culture and history are trampled its people are shot there is persistent negative image of azerbaijanians abroad and this defamation is spread over the whole world by soviet mass media armenian lobby in the ussr and the united states one of the myths is that all events allegedly involves and generated by interethnic collisions and religious intolerance while the truth is that all these shootings and recent events stem from the territorial claims of armenia on azerbaijan it is a well documented fact that before the conflict there were no frictions between armenians and azerbaijanis on the issue of karabakh hundreds and thousands armenians placidly and calmly lived and worked in azerbaijan land had their representatives in all government bodies of the azerbaijan ssr we are for a united indivisible sovereign azerbaijan we are for a common caucasian home proclaimed in by one of the founding fathers of the azerbaijan democratic republic muhammed emin rasulzade but all these goals and expectations are trampled upon the soviet leadership in favour of the armenian expansionists encouraged by moscow and intended to create a new year reich the great armenia by annexing the neighboring lands the world public opinion shed tears to save the whales suffers for penguins dying out in the antarctic continent but what about the lives of seven million human beings if these people are muslims does it mean that they are less valuable can people be discriminated by their colour of skin or religion by their residence or other attributes all people are brothers and we appeal to our brothers for help and understanding this is not the first appeal of azerbaijan to the world public opinion our previous appeals were unheard however we still carry the hope that the truth beyond the russian and armenian propaganda will one day reveal the extent of our suffering and stimulate at least as much help and compassion for azerbaijan as tendered to whales and penguins the committee for people s help to karabakh of the academy of sciences of the azerbaijan ssr painful search the gruesome extent of february s killings of azeris by armenians in the town of hojali is at last emerging in azerbaijan about men women and children dead in the worst outrage of the four year war over nagorny karabakh the figure is drawn from azeri investigators hojali officials and casualty lists published in the baku press diplomats and aid workers say the death toll is in line with their own estimates the february attack on hojali by armenian forces was one of the last moves in their four year campaign to take full control of nagorny karabakh the subject of a new round of negotiations in rome on monday the bloodshed was something between a fighting retreat and a massacre but investigators say that most of the dead were civilians the awful number of people killed was first suppressed by the fearful former communist government in baku later it was blurred by armenian denials and grief stricken azerbaijan s wild and contradictory allegations of up to dead the state prosecuter aydin rasulov the cheif investigator of a man team looking into what azerbaijan calls the hojali disaster said his figure of people dead was a minimum on preliminary findings a similar estimate was given by elman memmedov the mayor of hojali an even higher one was printed in the baku newspaper ordu in may dead people named and more than bodies reported unidentified this figure of nearly dead is quoted as official by leila yunusova the new spokeswoman of the azeri ministry of defence francois zen ruffinen head of delegation of the international red cross in baku said the muslim imam of the nearby city of agdam had reported a figure of bodies received at his mosque from hojali most of them civilians we did not count the bodies but the figure seems reasonable it is no fantasy mr zen ruffinen said we have some idea since we gave the body bags and products to wash the dead mr rasulov endeavours to give an unemotional estimate of the number of dead in the massacre don t get worked up it will take several months to get a final figure the year old lawyer said at his small office mr rasulov knows about these things it took him two years to reach a firm conclusion that people were killed and wounded when soviet troops and tanks crushed a nationalist uprising in baku in january those nationalists the popular front finally came to power three weeks ago and are applying pressure to find out exactly what happened when hojali an azeri town which lies about miles from the border with armenia fell to the armenians officially people have so far been certified as dead being the number of people that could be medically examined by the republic s forensic department this is just a small percentage of the dead said rafiq youssifov the republic s chief forensic scientist they were the only bodies brought to us remember the chaos and the fact that we are muslims and have to wash and bury our dead within hours of these people were women and were children under years old gunshots killed people shrapnel killed and axes or blunt instruments killed exposure in the highland snows killed the last three thirty three people showed signs of deliberate mutilation including ears noses breasts or penises cut off and eyes gouged out according to professor youssifov s report those bodies examined were less than a third of those believed to have been killed mr rasulov said files from mr rasulov s investigative commission are still disorganised lists of azeri militiamen are dead here six policemen there and in handwriting of a mosque attendant the names of corpses brought to be washed in just one day the most heartbreaking account from witnesses interviewed so far comes from towfiq manafov an azeri investigator who took a helicopter flight over the escape route from hojali on february there were too many bodies of dead and wounded on the ground to count properly in hojali people by the stream and the road and visible around nakhchivanik village mr manafov wrote in a statement countersigned by the helicopter pilot people waved up to us for help we saw three dead children and one two year old alive by one dead woman the live one was pulling at her arm for the mother to get up we tried to land but armenians started a barrage against our helicopter and we had to return there has been no consolidation of the lists and figures in circulation because of the political upheavals of the last few months and the fact that nobody knows exactly who was in hojali at the time many inhabitants were displaced from other villages taken over by armenian forces the independent london heroes who fought on amid the bodies aref sadikov sat quietly in the shade of a cafe bar on the caspian sea esplanade of baku and showed a line of stitches in his trousers torn by an armenian bullet as he fled the town of hojali just over three months ago writes hugh pope i m still wearing the same clothes i don t have any others the year old carpenter said beginning his account of the hojali disaster i was wounded in five places but i am lucky to be alive mr sadikov and his wife were short of food without electricity for more than a month and cut off from helicopter flights for days they sensed the armenian noose was tightening around the to people left in the straggling azeri town on the edge of karabakh at about pm a bombardment started such as we had never heard before eight or nine kinds of weapons artillery heavy machine guns the lot mr sadikov said soon neighbours were pouring down the street from the direction of the attack some huddled in shelters but others started fleeing the town down a hill through a stream and through the snow into a forest on the other side to escape the townspeople had to reach the azeri town of agdam about miles away they thought they were going to make it until at about dawn they reached a bottleneck between the two armenian villages of nakhchivanik and saderak none of my group was hurt up to then then we were spotted by a car on the road and the armenian outposts started opening fire mr sadikov said azeri militiamen fighting their way out of hojali rushed forward to force open a corridor for the civilians but their efforts were mostly in vain mr sadikov said only people from his group of made it through including his wife and militiaman son seven of his immediate relations died including his year old elder brother i only had time to reach down and cover his face with his hat he said pulling his own big flat turkish cap over his eyes we have never got any of the bodies back the first groups were lucky to have the benefit of covering fire one hero of the evacuation alif hajief was shot dead as he struggled to change a magazine while covering the third group s crossing mr sadikov said another hero elman memmedov the mayor of hojali said he and several others spent the whole day of february in the bushy hillside surrounded by dead bodies as they tried to keep three armenian armoured personnel carriers at bay as the survivors staggered the last mile into agdam there was little comfort in a town from which most of the population was soon to flee the night after we reached the town there was a big armenian rocket attack some people just kept going mr sadikov said i had to get to the hospital for treatment i was in a bad way they even found a bullet in my sock victims of war an azeri woman mourns her son killed in the hojali massacre in february left nurses struggle in primitive conditions centre to save a wounded man in a makeshift operating theatre set up in a train carriage grief stricken relatives in the town of agdam right weep over the coffin of another of the massacre victims calculating the final death toll has been complicated because muslims bury their dead within hours photographs liu heung ap frederique lengaigne reuter the independent london serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re synagogues mosques and double standards narain ih nxt cso uiuc edu nizam arain writes mark ira kaufman writes a perfect example is the outcry over the temporary removal of men who advocated murdering jews and destroying the state of israel compared to the deafening silence over the abusive treatment of jews in arab countries during the past years never mind the fact that these people were denied the right to a fair trial repeat a lie often enough and people will start to believe it eh the hamas terrorists were given the opportunity to appeal they ve chosen not to obviously because they get better propaganda mileage out of refusing israel also agreed that they could return immediately provided they agreed to stop killing jews their refusal speaks for itself alan h stein astein israel nysernet org
talk.politics.mideast	re west bank and baseball in september our medical reserve unit was sent to the ketziot prison camp to take care of arab prisoner who were housed in sections of prisoners each with each section subdivided in units housing prisoners the prisoners would communicate with other distant sections sometimes yards away by taking stones tying written notes to the stones and throwing them with incredible precision to other sections i should have been a recruiter for the red sox there were at least three prisoners who could have been outstanding pitchers josh backon vms huji ac il
talk.politics.mideast	re saudi clergy condemns debut of human rights group in article benali alcor benali alcor concordia ca ilyess b bdira writes it looks like ben baz s mind and heart are also blind not only his eyes i used to respect him today i lost the minimal amount of respect that i struggled to keep for him to all muslim netters this is the same guy who gave a fatwah that saudi arabia can be used by the united ststes to attack iraq they were attacking the iraqis to drive them out of kuwait a country whose citizens have close blood and business ties to saudi citizens and me thinks if the us had not helped out the iraqis would have swallowed saudi arabia too or at least the eastern oilfields and no muslim country was doing much of anything to help liberate kuwait and protect saudi arabia indeed in some masses of citizens were demonstrating in favor of that butcher saddam who killed lotsa muslims just because he was killing raping and looting relatively rich muslims and also thumbing his nose at the west so how would have you defended saudi arabia and rolled back the iraqi invasion were you in charge of saudi arabia fatwah is as legitimate as this one with that kind of clergy it might be an islamic duty to separate religion and politics if religion means official clergy i think that it is a very good idea to not have governments have an official religion de facto or de jure because with human nature like it is the ambitious and not the pious will always be the ones who rise to power there are just too many people in this world or any country for the citizens to really know if a leader is really devout or if he is just a slick operator cairo egypt upi the cairo based arab organization for human rights aohr thursday welcomed the establishement last week of the committee for defense of legal rights in saudi arabia and said it was necessary to have such groups operating in all arab countries you make it sound like these guys are angels ilyess in your clarinet posting you edited out some stuff was it the following friday s new york times reported that this group definitely is more conservative than even sheikh baz and his followers who think that the house of saud does not rule the country conservatively enough the nyt reported that besides complaining that the government was not conservative enough they have asserted that the approx shiites in the kingdom are apostates a charge that under saudi and islamic law brings the death penalty diplomatic guy sheikh bin jibrin isn t he ilyess called for severe punishment of the or so women who drove in public a while back to protest the ban on women driving the guy from the group who said this abdelhamoud al toweijri said that these women should be fired from their jobs jailed and branded as prostitutes is this what you want to see happen ilyess i ve heard many muslims say that the ban on women driving has no basis in the qur an the ahadith etc yet these folks not only like the ban they want these women falsely called prostitutes if i were you i d choose my heroes wisely ilyess not just reflexively rally behind anyone who hates anyone you hate say that women should not be allowed to work say that tv and radio are too immoral in the kingdom now the house of saud is neither my least nor my most favorite government on earth i think they restrict religious and political reedom a lot among other things i just think that the most likely replacements for them are going to be a lot worse for the citizens of the country but i think the house of saud is feeling the heat lately in the last six months or so i ve read there have been stepped up harassing by the muttawain religious police not government of western women not fully veiled something stupid for women to do imo because it sends the wrong signals about your morality and i ve read that they ve cracked down on the few home based expartiate religious gatherings and even posted rewards in government owned newspapers offering money for anyone who turns in a group of expartiates who dare worship in their homes or any other secret place so the government has grown even more intolerant to try to take some of the wind out of the sails of the more conservative opposition as unislamic as some of these things are they re just a small taste of what would happen if these guys overthrow the house of saud like they re trying to in the long run is this really what you and rached and others in the general west is evil zionists rule hate west or you are a puppet crowd want ilyess dave bakken the president is doing a fine job but the problem is we don t know what to do with her husband james carville clinton campaign strategist oh please call daddy mom s far too busy chelsea to nurse cspan
talk.politics.mideast	re saudi clergy condemns debut of human rights group in article optima cs arizona edu bakken cs arizona edu dave bakken writes deleted is this really what you and rached and others in the general west is evil zionists rule hate west or you are a puppet crowd want ilyess it s noteworthy that the posts about the west being evil etc are made not in some islamic hellhole but from the west if the west is so bad why do they come here notice how they comfortably exercise their rights to free expression something completely absent in their own countries vasudev vasudev murthy any opinions expressed are strictly murthy asl dl nec com my own and have nothing to do with advanced switching lab nec america inc
talk.politics.mideast	re mosque in jewish quarter was re israeli destruction of i always believed the statement those who do not know their history are condemned to repeat it will durant but i am beginning to believe the opposite is true here in t p m and in other newsgroups it seems that history is mainly remembered to foment hatred or to be used as a club in the history of my own people there are ample acts of shame both done by my people and done to my people since i was not party to any of those acts i refuse to accept blame for the evil acts that my ancestors committed nor do i direct hatred toward the descendants of those who committed evil acts against my ancestors will all of this discussion rebuild a single mosque will it rebuild the temple somehow i doubt that it will a post in another group on the bosnian war asked us all to love each other that love would conquer hate sadly i remember a tv interview with a young woman in sarajevo sp who was as i remember a former olympic calibre contestant in the rifle shoot she was now trying to pick off serbian snipers during the communist years she had married a serb who was now fighting against her people so it seems that hate will conquer love is there an odd chance that we might all forget past wrongs and try and see how we might all live together it s a damn small planet which we have come very close to turning into a radioactive ball glowing softly in space we seem to have been spared that prospect shall we now bathe it in each other s blood shalom salam and peace reb
talk.politics.mideast	help palestinian education from center for policy research cpr subject help palestinian education how to help palestinian education from educational network no april publ by ramallah friends schools p o box ramallah west bank via israel tel fax many of our readers have written to us asking how individuals and organizations can help palestinian education we have compiled a list of suggestions to guide you if you are interested in pursuing one or more of these suggested activities the educational network can aid you by coordinating the initial contacts following up and providing any other support you may need link your teachers union with a teachers union here linkage should be based on a shared pedagogical enterprise get your union to actively support the right of palestinian teachers in the occupied territories to form unions a through the international labor organization if your union is a member b contacting other international unions which have supported our right to form a union we can supply names and addresses establish a scholarship fund for one or more palestinian students to study at a palestinian university or school or establish a scholarship fund for a palestinian student or teacher to study at a university abroad reproduce and publish information about palestinian education a for your union membership b for the outside community the educational network can supply up to date information and statistics send delegations of teachers to visit the occupied territories during periods when our schools are in session the network can arrange an itinerary make hotel and local travel arrangements and provide a guide for the visit sponsor palestinian teachers to visit your city for an educational tour a to see schools and speak with educators in order to learn about progressive pedagogical ideas and experiences b to speak about the conditions of palestinian education the network will coordinate from palestine establish teacher exchange programs for one year in which a palestinian teacher from a private school teaches at a public or private school abroad while a teacher from that school spends a year in a palestinian private school send an experienced educator to the occupied territories to give workshops all day workshops or two day workshops on innovative teaching techniques the network will pay for the person s food lodging and travel while in palestine and will serve as guide set up a pen pal program with a palestinian school in either english or french set up a sister school program with a palestinian school which would actively involve teachers as well as students at both schools a great tool for building international understanding and mutual sensitivity keep the educational network informed about important educational conferences so that we can send a palestinian teacher to attend send to the educational network articles or other writings or books dealing with innovative approaches and ideas in the field of education so that we can then disseminate the information locally support an educational development project in the occupied territories
talk.politics.mideast	rabin and his palestinians kapos from center for policy research cpr subject rabin and his palestinians kapos rabin s plans for a palestinian police from the other front alternative information center jerusalem may the decision to view the setting up of a local police force for sic the palestinians as the central issue for deliberation at the peace talks to be resumed next week even before subjects like elections in the territories and areas of juridiction in the framework of autonomy is a sign of the israeli government s serious attitude towards the peace process the setting up of a police force is not part of the gesture package but deals with the very heart and substance of the palestinian struggle for national identity as it turns out the main objective guiding the prime minister in the setting up of a palestinian police force and apparently also supported by foreign minister shimon peres is to ensure the holding of democratic elections in the territories thus writes amnon barzilai in his editorial israeli daily hadashot april and his position articulates the thinking of most of the commentators who dealt with this issue in the past two weeks over against them stand the settlers and rightwing parties who also interpret the decision to encourage the establishment of a palestinian police force as a significant step towards the instituting of real autonomy something which will restrict what can be done by the jewish settlers in the west bank and gaza strip with a variety of demonstrations including street theater on what will happen when there is a palestinian police force rightwing elements are attempting to frighten the israeli public and to pressure rabin to go back on his decision members of the kach movement have even begun to organize a settler police force in the occupied territories as counter balance to the future palestinian police force however as barzilai points out the main function of the new police force as far as the israeli government is concerned has nothing to do with the settlers over whom they will apparently have no authority but will control political groups within the palestinian population whom the government is interested in neutralizing writes barzilai according to ideas currently taking shape the setting up of a local police force in the territories will precede not only the stage of electsion but also the final stages of the preparing of the interim autonomy agreement the willingness of the israeli government to set up a local palestinian police force is evidence that the government is serious about arriving at a settlement with the palestinians it s no wonder that the palestinian public is also greatly worried about this new israeli initiative and it is inevitable that pressure will be brought to bear on faisal husseini and the rest of the delegation members from a variety of directions to refuse the gift which rabin would like to give them but at this stage it looks like the palestinians are cooperating in the fulfillment of his plans add l comment by e d numerous palestinians fear that israel might succeed in co opting some palestinian circles by this idea they fear that a palestinian police force controlled in fact by israel might act even more brutally than the idf the idea of using a surrogate police force is not new it is used by israel in lebanon and was used by the nazis to control jewish ghetto dwellers
talk.politics.mideast	reflections on bosnia owen neier reflections on bosnia lord owen and the serbs in early february lord owen made appearances in new york city on the donahue and charlie rose shows on a couple of occasions on those shows lord owen gave away his pro serbian position when he made the point that much or most of the bosnian territory then in dispute or already overrun by serbian forces had been controlled and occupied by serbs before wwii it was as if he were saying that since the serbs had previously occupied those territories and lost them during the hitler years they should be allowed to reconquer them today i was familiar with this view because my father a yugoslav jew who escaped to this country during the war was aided and found sympathy among the serbs during those harrowing years in recent months when the subject of serbian aggression was mentioned my father would make the point that serbs were killed by nazi and pro nazi croatian forces known as the ustasha my father is so pro serbian that he dismissed reports of serbian atrocities my father also excoriated new york times columnist anthony lewis because my father said anthony lewis is always talking about the muslims update april after an uneasy truce in and around sbernica shelling has resumed in nearby areas by all sides and the killing and the misery continues apace while the clinton administration dithers its response in the days leading to the collapse of resistance at sbernica lord owen changed his tune previously he had opposed military intervention on the grounds that it would endanger u n relief workers when serbian forces began to march on sbernica the threat to u n relief soldiers went unmentioned while lord owen called for outside intervention to stop serbian aggression including the use of air strikes the current disastrous situation can be seen as a failure of the west and a failure of the vance owen initiative which did nothing to halt the serbs now that it s too late to save muslim areas that lord owen felt should be in a muslim state lord owen belatedly calls for strong action clinton and bosnia in the summer of george kenney a senior state department official the undersecretary in charge of the yugoslav desk made news when he resigned from the state department because of the bush administration s refusal to take any action to halt serbian aggression as kenney saw it bush s inaction was largely due to the president s unwillingness to risk any political capital by getting involved there apparently the same is true of the clinton administration clinton gives the impression that he cares more than bush did about the terrible ongoing tragedy but the practical effect has so far been the same according to the new york times the clinton administration did everything it could to suppress a mid march report by its own experts which called for military action if necessary to protect safe havens for the muslims at one point senate majority leader george mitchell was so incensed that the report was kept from congress that he called for an investigation instead of helping the desperate bosnians clinton has signalled again and again that milosevic and the serbs are free to do what they want in bosnia indeed clinton and the west have been signalling that the serbs should get on with the job and finish off the bosnians as quickly as possible while we turn the other way a key signal was when clinton made it clear that he would not send in american military forces on the ground on this issue clinton has made me wistful for bush bush and baker could not have done worse and might have been pressured to do better well before this time lives in bosnia might have been saved and the destruction might have been curtailed the nation the left and the bosnian quandary typical of the left s inability to come to grips with the core issue involved in bosnia i e a clear aggressor destroying hundreds of thousands of lives is the editorial on the bosnian quandary in the nation in the end the editorial votes to do nothing even while noticing the ghastly atrocities of the bosnian serbs and that the greater and lesser powers dither and fuss and hang back before anything else happens the clinton administration ought to pay the million the united states owes the u n the editorial concludes in its most striking passage the editorial writer warns that those who are pushing president clinton to intervene on the side of the bosnians had better review u s foreign policy since world war ii the editorial argues for inaction on the basis that the bosnian serbs are no worse than any number of u s clients including the chileans the south africans the greek fascists and others in a subsequent column for the nation christopher hitchens correctly called this editorial contemptible william pfaff a european based journalist who writes for the the new yorker and the los angeles times is among a group of liberal columnists like anthony lewis and leslie gelb who have clearly and consistently called for strong western and american intervention to stop the serbs pfaff s most recent column liberal opinion week is entitled international cowardice worsened bosnian tragedy he clarifies the international failure which has led to present situation in one sentence having refused to intervene to sanction the threat to minority rights in newly independent croatia in june or to block or penalize the military aggression by serbia that immediately followed and the atrocious ethnic cleansing which followed that the united nations now contemplates deploying in bosnia military force on a scale which two years ago could have deterred the horrors yugoslavia has since experienced he goes on to explain that u n plans now envisaged call for a more daunting and open ended military assignment than a direct military intervention to halt the aggression would have been a year ago aryeh neier on the serbs in his watching rights column in the the nation aryeh neier gets to the heart of the motivation of the aggressors the preferred term for the serbian forces who have been besieging and shelling sarajevo for more than a year he explains that there is no military purpose that is served by the destruction of its fabric and its people above all few of those aligned with the forces attacking sarajevo would want to live there even if the city could be rebuilt they are not city people it is this i believe aside from a desire to break the morale of bosnians and make them press their government to accept peace at any price that explains the conduct of the siege of sarajevo i t is a loathing for all that is urban pluralist and cosmopolitan that has made sarajevo the object for devastation historically most of the serbian population in bosnia and herzegovina has been rural while muslims who were the civil servants and intelligentsia during the centuries of ottoman rule made up a disproportionate share of the urban population the destruction of sarajevo is not only an expression of hostility against this city it is also an attack on the urban idea the demagogues who whipped up the passions let loose by this war exploited not only ethnic and religious bigotry but also hatred for all that is cosmopolitan the light that neier sheds on the issue helps to clarify what is at stake the serbs represent the know nothing anti secularist fundamentalist fascist forces who are attacking the urban cosmopolitan secular multi cultural idea they are attacking the rest of us just as hitler did one irony is that at the beginning of the crisis over bosnia it was for awhile maintained by the serbs and their supporters that they were responding to a threat by the bosnian muslims to create a fundamentalist state neier has shown that it is the serbs who are the great threat to secularism multi culturalism diversity and democracy it s the serbs who are attacking the democratic notion the democratic idea anthony lewis comes close to the point when he asks why does respect for clinton s presidency depend on his acting effectively against serbian aggression first of all because to do nothing about genocide would be such a betrayal of the values we and our allies profess times but it s not merely a betrayal of our values it s because the serbs are attacking us by proxy just as hitler was one argument for decisive action by the west that is heard in a different form is that war in the balkans is destablizing for europe we hear it as the bosnians are europe s palestinians that is to say just as the palestinian refugee problem has been the key to instability in the middle east just so will the hundreds of thousands of yugoslav refugees of all ethnicities result in turmoil in europe for decades to come one of the lessons of the twentieth century is that even though the atlantic ocean divides us the americas are ultimately tied to the destiny of europe if europe is destabilized the u s will inevitably be affected and drawn into its problems as in a whirlpool sooner or later we will be drawn into the maelstrom and as past history and pfaff have shown it s much better if we do so decisively quickly and on our terms sincerely ronald bleier
talk.politics.mideast	re zionist leaders frank statements dear pete for one who is so zionist as you you should at least know your hebrew young man the last sentence in your posting should read medina achat leshnai amim not echad medionnot leshtai amim i don t want to address your comments they speak for themselves best regards from a palestinian of jewish origin who talks reads and writes hebrew and does not hate jews nor anybody else elias
talk.politics.mideast	re baltic states and realism and virvir drivel in article t e r i m zip eecs umich edu sechrest cairo eecs umich edu stuart sechrest writes by the way here is the entire paragraph we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the tartars and then proceeded in the work of extermination our troops surrounded village after village little resistance was offered our artillery knocked the huts into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable and inhabitants fled from them into fields bullets and bayonets completed the work some of the tartars escaped of course they found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border into turkey the rest were killed and so it is that the whole length of the borderland of russian armenia from nakhitchevan to akhalkalaki from the hot plains of ararat to the cold mountain plateau of the north were dotted with mute mournful ruins of tartar villages they are quiet now those villages except for howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the scattered bones of the dead ohanus appressian men are like that p no this is the point you invariably miss don t be so vague let us reexamine it shall we this is the entire paragraph as the turks had solved the armenian problem in turkey by slaying or driving the armenians out of the country so we now proceeded to solve the tartar problem in armenia we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the tartars and then proceeded in the work of extermination our troops surrounded village after village little resistance was offered our artillery knocked the huts into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable and inhabitants fled from them into fields bullets and bayonets completed the work some of the tartars escaped of course they found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border into turkey the rest were killed and so it is that the whole length of the borderland of russian armenia from nakhitchevan to akhalkalaki from the hot plains of ararat to the cold mountain plateau of the north were dotted with mute mournful ruins of tartar villages they are quiet now those villages except for howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the scattered bones of the dead ohanus appressian from l r hartill men are like that the bobbs merrill company london p here you descend into total inanity your inability to distinguish between the cold blooded genocide of muslim people by the armenians and the armenian war is incredible now please provide us with your corrections source stanford j shaw on armenian collaboration with invading russian armies in history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey volume ii reform revolution republic the rise of modern turkey london cambridge university press pp in april dashnaks from russian armenia organized a revolt in the city of van whose armenians comprised percent of the population closest to an armenian majority of any city in the empire leaving erivan on april armenian volunteers reached van on may and organized and carried out a general slaughter of the local muslim population during the next two days knowing their numbers would never justify their territorial ambitions armenians looked to russia and europe for the fulfillment of their aims armenian treachery in this regard culminated at the beginning of the first world war with the decision of the revolutionary organizations to refuse to serve their state the ottoman empire and to assist instead other invading russian armies their hope was their participation in the russian success would be rewarded with an independent armenian state carved out of ottoman territories armenian political leaders army officers and common soldiers began deserting in droves with the russian invasion of eastern anatolia in at the beginning of world war i the degree of armenian collaboration with the ottoman s enemy increased drastically ottoman supply lines were cut by guerilla attacks armenian revolutionaries armed armenian civil populations who in turn massacred the muslim population of the province of van in anticipation of expected arrival of the invading russian armies meanwhile czar nicholas ii himself came to the caucasus to make final plans for cooperation with the armenians against the ottomans with the president of the armenian national bureau in tiflis declaring in response from all countries armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks of the glorious russian army with their blood to serve the victory of russian arms let the russian flag wave freely over the dardanelles and the bosporus let with your will great majesty the peoples remaining under the turkish yoke receive freedom let the armenian people of turkey who have suffered for the faith of christ receive resurrection for a new free life under the protection of russia armenians again flooded into the czarist armies preparations were made to strike the ottomans from the rear and the czar returned to st petersburg confident that the day finally had come for him to reach istanbul horizon tiflis november quoted by hovannisian road to independence p fo ottoman morale and military position in the east were seriously hurt and the way was prepared for a new russian push into eastern anatolia to be accompanied by an open armenian revolt against the sultan hovannisian road to independence pp bayur iii pp w e d allen and p muratoff caucasian battlefields cambridge pp ali ihsan sabis harb hahralaram vols ankara ii fo no fo fo nos and an armenian state was organized at van under russian protection and it appeared that with the muslim natives dead or driven away it might be able to maintain itself at one of the oldest centers of ancient armenian civilization an armenian legion was organized to expel the turks from the entire southern shore of the lake in preparation for a concerted russian drive into the bitlis vilayet thousands of armenians from mus and other major centers in the east began to flood into the new armenian state by mid july there were as many as armenians crowded into the van area which before the crisis had housed and fed no more than people muslim and non muslim alike hovannisian road to independence p fop nos and bva meclis i vukela mazbatalari debates of august babi i ali evrak odasi no van ihtilali ve katl i ami zilkade september as you point out above the original quote used the term tartars as distinct from turks but you perhaps feel free to make these minor adjustments in the name of truth i went through this just a few weeks ago here it comes again the entire turkish population of armenia which armenians called tartars constituted at least about of the total population of armenia was deliberately exterminated for the population statistics please look to the book of richard hovannessian armenia on the road to independence i listed three books earlier of such a monstrous crime by the writings of one armenian one american and one british they are men are like that by leonard r hartill adventures in the near east by a rawlinson world alive a personal story by robert dunn also i personally have copies of documents of this crime by the writings of two armenians and also one american the official british report about this massacre mentioned in one of these documents lord curzon aharonin interview is the report of the british high commissioner to caucasia sir oliver wardrop an appropriate analogy with the jewish holocaust might be the systematic extermination of the entire muslim population of the independent republic of armenia which consisted of at least percent of the population of that republic the memoirs of an armenian army officer who participated in and eye witnessed these atrocities was published in the u s in with the title men are like that other references abound rachel a bortnick the jewish times june need i go on serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	xsoviet armenia will not get away with the turkish genocide s cover up in article galaxy ucr edu raffi watnxt ucr edu raffi r kojian writes you know it is true don t you well apparently we have another son of dro the butcher to contend with you should indeed be happy to know that you rekindled a huge discussion on distortions propagated by several of your contemporaries if you feel that you can simply act as an armenian governmental crony in this forum you will be sadly mistaken and duly embarrassed this is not a lecture to another historical revisionist and a genocide apologist but a fact i will dissect article by article paragraph by paragraph line by line lie by lie revision by revision written by those on this net who plan to prove that the armenian genocide of million turks and kurds is nothing less than a classic un redressed genocide we are neither in x soviet union nor in some similar ultra nationalist fascist dictatorship that employs the dictates of hitler to quell domestic unrest also feel free to distribute all responses to your nearest asala sdpa arf terrorists the armenian pseudo scholars or to those affiliated with the armenian criminal organizations x soviet armenian government got away with the genocide of million turkish men women and children and is enjoying the fruits of that genocide you and those like you will not get away with the genocide s cover up during the first world war and the ensuing years the armenians through a premeditated and systematic genocide tried to complete its centuries old policy of annihilation against the turks and kurds by savagely murdering million muslims and deporting the rest from their year homeland the attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance of genocide in the th century acted upon an entire people this event is incontrovertibly proven by historians government and international political leaders such as u s ambassador mark bristol william langer ambassador layard james barton stanford shaw arthur chester john dewey robert dunn papazian nalbandian ohanus appressian jorge blanco villalta general nikolayef general bolkovitinof general prjevalski general odiselidze meguerditche kazimir motayef twerdokhlebof general hamelin rawlinson avetis aharonian dr stephan eshnanie varandian general bronsart arfa dr hamlin boghos nubar sarkis atamian katchaznouni rachel bortnick halide edip mccarthy w b allen paul muratoff and many others j c hurewitz professor of government emeritus former director of the middle east institute columbia university bernard lewis cleveland e dodge professor of near eastern history princeton university halil inalcik university professor of ottoman history member of the american academy of arts sciences university of chicago peter golden professor of history rutgers university newark stanford shaw professor of history university of california at los angeles thomas naff professor of history director middle east research institute university of pennsylvania ronald jennings associate professor of history asian studies university of illinois howard reed professor of history university of connecticut dankwart rustow distinguished university professor of political science city university graduate school new york john woods associate professor of middle eastern history university of chicago john masson smith jr professor of history university of california at berkeley alan fisher professor of history michigan state university avigdor levy professor of history brandeis university andreas g e bodrogligetti professor of history university of california at los angeles kathleen burrill associate professor of turkish studies columbia university roderic davison professor of history george washington university walter denny professor of history university of massachusetts caesar farah professor of history university of minnesota tom goodrich professor of history indiana university of pennsylvania tibor halasi kun professor emeritus of turkish studies columbia university justin mccarthy professor of history university of louisville jon mandaville professor of history portland state university oregon robert olson professor of history university of kentucky madeline zilfi professor of history university of maryland james stewart robinson professor of turkish studies university of michigan so the list goes on and on and on serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	according to raffi r kojian armenians and jews are blatantly lying in article galaxy ucr edu raffi watnxt ucr edu raffi r kojian writes sedar it is serdar kocaoglan your second quote by sahak melkonian is very frankly invented just love it well it could be your head wasn t screwed on just right if that does ever happen look out the window and see if there is a non fascist x soviet armenian government in the east in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul it is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that some of us create for ourselves it certainly is possible to severe the artificial life support system of an imagined ethnic purity that some of us falsely trust as the only structure that can support their heart beats in this alien land sahak melkonian preserving the armenian purity if you are going to lie and invent quotes at least use the right date you sound like asala sdpa arf idiots clowns crooks if you prefer to imagine that u s ambassador bristol and armenian jewish scholars were trying to mislead arromdians be my guest a typical armenian clown source u s library of congress bristol papers general correspondence container while the dashnaks x soviet armenian government were in power they did everything in the world to keep the pot boiling by attacking kurds turks and tartars by committing outrages against the moslems by massacring the moslems and robbing and destroying their homes during the last two years the armenians in russian caucasus have shown no ability to govern themselves and especially no ability to govern or handle other races under their power source general bronsart wrote as follows in an article in the july issue of the newspaper deutsche allgemeine zeitung since all the moslems capable of bearing arms were in the turkish army it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by the armenians against defenseless people because the armenians were not only attacking the sides and rear of the eastern army paralyzed at the front by the russians but were attacking the moslem folk in the region as well source john dewey the turkish tragedy the new republic volume november pp they armenians boasted of having raised an army of one hundred and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war and that they burned at least a hundred turkish villages and exterminated their population armenia was not a soviet republic in so sorry to burst your little bubble what a clown let us ask armenian scholars shall we source hovannisian richard g armenia on the road to independence university of california press berkeley and los angeles p the addition of the kars and batum oblasts to the empire increased the area of transcaucasia to over square miles the estimated population of the entire region in was of whom percent were armenian percent georgian and percent moslem of the latter group were tatars paradoxically barely one third of transcaucasia s armenians lived in the erevan guberniia where the christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds erevan uezd the administrative center of the province had only armenians as compared to moslems by the time of the russian census of however the armenians had established a scant majority percent in the guberniia it had risen by to percent or of the inhabitants this impressive change in the province s ethnic character notwithstanding there was on the eve of the creation of the armenian republic a solid block of tartars who continued to dominate the southern districts from the outskirts of ereven to the border of persia see also map historic armenia and map administrative subdivisions of transcaucasia in percent turk we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the tartars and then proceeded in the work of extermination our troops surrounded village after village little resistance was offered our artillery knocked the huts into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable and inhabitants fled from them into fields bullets and bayonets completed the work some of the tartars escaped of course they found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border into turkey the rest were killed and so it is that the whole length of the borderland of russian armenia from nakhitchevan to akhalkalaki from the hot plains of ararat to the cold mountain plateau of the north were dotted with mute mournful ruins of tartar villages they are quiet now those villages except for howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the scattered bones of the dead ohanus appressian men are like that p as for your other quote i would love to know the source just say so source men are like that by leonard ramsden hartill the bobbs merrill company indianapolis pages memoirs of an armenian officer who participated in the genocide of million muslim people foreword for example we were camped one night in a half ruined tartar mosque the most habitable building of a destroyed village near the border of persia and russian armenia during the course of evening i asked ohanus if he could tell me anything of the history of the village and the cause of its destruction in his matter of fact way he replied yes i assisted in its sack and destruction and witnessed the slaying of those whose bones you saw to day scattered among its ruins p first and second paragraphs we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the tartars and then proceeded in the work of extermination our troops surrounded village after village little resistance was offered our artillery knocked the huts into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable and inhabitants fled from them into fields bullets and bayonets completed the work some of the tartars escaped of course they found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border into turkey the rest were killed and so it is that the whole length of the borderland of russian armenia from nakhitchevan to akhalkalaki from the hot plains of ararat to the cold mountain plateau of the north were dotted with mute mournful ruins of tartar villages they are quiet now those villages except for howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the scattered bones of the dead p second paragraph the tartars were for the most part poor some of them lived in villages and cultivated small farms many of them continued in the way of life of their nomadic forefathers they drove their flocks and herds from valley to valley from plain to mountain and from mountain to plain following the pasturage as it changed with the seasons they ranged from the salt desert shores of the caspian sea far into the mighty caucasus mountains even the village tartars are a primitive people only semicivilized i can see now that we armenians frankly despised the tartars and while holding a disproportionate share of the wealth of the country regarded and treated them as inferiors the fact that the russians looked down upon all armenians in much the same way as armenians regarded tartars far from proving a bond between ourselves and our racially different neighbors intensified an attitude and conduct on our part that served only to exacerbate hostility p second paragraph our men armed themselves gathered together and advanced on the tartar section of the village there were no lights in the houses and the doors were barred for the tartars suspected what as to happen and were in great fear our men hammered on the doors but got no response whereupon they smashed in the doors and began a carnage that continued until the last tartar was slain throughout the hideous night i cowered at home in terror unable to shut my ears to the piercing screams of the helpless victims and the loud shouts of our men by morning the work was finished p second paragraph as things were the members of the dashnack party were without administrative experience consequently the government they instituted quickly proved itself incompetent to rule by legitimate means the members of the government had been revolutionists working in secret and outside the law when they became a legally instituted recognized governing body with the destiny of armenia in their hands they proved incompetent to do better than resume the terrorist tactics that had characterized their fight against the russian and turkish governments in their outlaw days the outstanding feature of their rule now that they were in power was as in the old days trial and execution without hearing a man evoking the displeasure of the government or of some official would be tried and condemned without arrest or preference of charges against him the method of execution was for a government mauserist to walk up behind the condemned man in his home or on the street place a pistol to the back of his head and blow out his brains this simple way of getting rid of those who were undesirable in the view of the government and soon became a common way of paying debts p first paragraph a soldier succeeded in driving his bayonet through the tartar i saw the point of the weapon emerge through his back another soldier seized a rock and pounded the tartar s head with it the armenian who had bayoneted him sprang to his feet wrested the weapon from the tartar s body and raising it to his lips licked it clean of blood exclaiming in russian slodkey slodkey sweet p second paragraph one evening i passed through what had been a tartar village among the ruins a fire was burning i went to the fire and saw seated about it a group of soldiers among them were two tartar girls mere children the girls were crouched on the ground crying softly with suppressed sobs lying scattered over the ground were broken household utensils and other furnishings of tartar peasant homes there were also bodies of the dead p first paragraph i was soon asleep in the night i was awakened by the persistent crying of a child i arose and went to investigate a full moon enabled me to make my way about and revealed to me all the wreck and litter of the tragedy that had been enacted guided by the child s crying i entered the yard of a house which i judged from its appearance must have been the home of a turkish family there in a corner of the yard i found a women dead her throat had been cut lying on her breast was a small child a girl about a year old p slowly the train of oxcarts lumbered along through the snow the cart jolting and the loads swaying boys ran along the line of oxen encouraging them with shrill tartar cries and belaboring the beasts with sticks in the carts the women veiled as is the tartar way held children in their arms wrapped in blankets and huddled among the goods that burdened the carts they sought protection from the wind and cold a few old men plodded along on foot across the road through the ravine a barrier had been thrown the leading oxteam reached this barrier and halted the gunmen and other ruffians concealed among the rocks opened fire women and children leaped and scrambled from the carts screamed ran and sought vainly for safety this massacre was not complete the armenian soldiers in the near by barracks hearing the firing and the turmoil hurried to the scene that same day the abandoned tartar quarter of alexandropol was looted and completely destroyed p great swarms of peasants who had come out of their hiding places on the retreat of the turks followed our army as it advanced they entered into the city with the army and immediately began plundering the stores that had been left by the turks p terrible vengeance was taken upon tartars kurds and turks their villages were destroyed and they themselves were slain or driven out of the country p the fanatical dashnacks hated the turks above all others and then in order of diminishing intensity tartars kurds and russians p first and second paragraphs russian troops did terrible things in the turkish villages we armenians did not spare the tartars if persisted in the slaughtering of prisoners the looting and the rape and massacre of the helpless become commonplace actions expected and accepted as a matter of course i have been on the scenes of massacres where the dead lay on the ground in numbers like the fallen leaves in a forest they had been as helpless and as defenseless as sheep they had not died as soldiers die in the heat of battle fired with ardor and courage with weapons in their hands and exchanging blow for blow they had died as the helpless must with their hearts and brains bursting with horror worse than death itself p first paragraph in this movement we took with us three thousand turkish soldiers who had been captured by the russians and left on our hands when the russians abandoned the struggle during our retreat to karaklis two thousand of these poor devils were cruelly put to death i was sickened by the brutality displayed but could not make any effective protest some mercifully were shot many of them were burned to death the method employed was to put a quantity of straw into a hut and then after crowding the hut with turks set fire to the straw p first paragraph the tartar section of the town no longer existed except as a pile of ruins it had been destroyed and its inhabitants slaughtered the same fate befell the tartar section of khankandi p second paragraph many of our men had served in the russian army and were trained soldiers we armenians were rich and possessed arms tartars had never received military training they were poor and possessed few arms beyond knives shortly after the killing of the tartars in our village the revolution in russia was suppressed p third paragraph within a few years following the beginning of the movement an invisible government of armenians by armenians had been established in turkish armenia in armed opposition to the turkish government this secret government had its own courts and laws and an army of assassins called mauserists professional killers to enforce its decrees p first paragraph the dashnacks were in continual open rebellion against the turkish government p third paragraph the dashnacks engineered a general revolt of armenians in turkish armenia under the mistaken belief that european nations would intervene and secure independence for turkish armenia p second paragraph the dashnacks were fanatics p third paragraph the dashnacks took advantage of this situation and extended their revolutionary activities into the russian province they instituted a campaign of terrorism and employed threats and force in securing contributions to the party funds from rich armenians a wealthy man would be assessed a stipulated sum refusal to pay brought upon him a sentence of death every member of the party was pledged to carry out orders without question if a man were to be assassinated lots might be drawn to select an executioner or the job might be assigned to one of the mauserists of the party p first paragraph in moments of victory against turks and kurds or tartars they armenians have been remorseless in seeking vengeance p third paragraph the city was a scene of confusion and terror during the early days of the war when the russian troops invaded turkey large numbers of the turkish population abandoned their homes and fled before the russian advance p second paragraph i made a cannon a huge gun to lift which required four men i made balls for it with my cannon the armenians could knock down any of the tartar houses and so they were able to drive the tartars out p first paragraph the tartar villages were in ruins p third paragraph the dead tartar lay with his head in a pool of mud and blood his beard still setaceous and now crimsoned need i go on serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	an eyewitness account of how a turkish family was butchered by in article galaxy ucr edu raffi watnxt ucr edu raffi r kojian writes another thing i find interesting when turks whine about armenians taking control of their land is that turkey is still occupying n cyrus how can you have the gall to even open your mouths about karabakh until turkish troops are completely out of the independent island of cyprus no wonder you wieneramus are in such a mess following the greek cypriot attempt to annex the island to greece with the aid of the greek army turkiye intervened by using her legal right given by two international agreements turkiye did it for the frequently and conveniently forgotten people of the island turkish cypriots for those turkish cypriots whose grandparents have been living on the island since and the next is karabag the people of turkiye know quite well that greece and the greek cypriots will never abandon the idea of hellenizing cyprus and will remain eternally hopeful of uniting it with greece someday whatever the cost to the parties involved the history speaks for itself greece was the sole perpetrator of invasion on that island when it sent its troops on july in an attempt to topple the legitimate government of archibishop makarios the release of nikos sampson a member of eoka national organization of cypriot fighters and a convicted terrorist shows that the enosis mentality continues to survive in greece one should not forget that sampson dedicated his life to annihilating the turks in cyprus committed murder to achieve this goal and tried to destroy the island s independence by annexing it to greece of course the greek governments will have to bear the consequences for this irresponsible conduct the museum of barbarism irfan bey street kumsal area nicosia cyprus it is the house of dr nihat ilhan a major who was serving at the cyprus turkish army contingent during the attacks launched against the turks by the greeks on th december dr nihat ilhan s wife and three children were ruthlessly and brutally killed in the bathroom where they had tried to hide by savage greeks dr nihat ilhan happened to be on duty that night the th december pictures reflecting greek atrocities committed during and after are exhibited in this house which has been converted into a museum an eye witness account of how a turkish family was butchered by greek terrorists the date is the th of december the onslaught of the greeks against the turks which started three days ago has been going on with all its ferocity and defenseless women old men and children are being brutally killed by greeks and now kumsal area of nicosia witnesses the worst example of the greeks savage bloodshed the wife and the three infant children of dr nihat ilhan a major on duty at the camp of the cyprus turkish army contingent are mercilessly and dastardly shot dead while hiding in the bathroom of their house by maddened greeks who broke into their home a glaring example of greek barbarism let us now listen to the relating of the said incident told by mr hasan yusuf gudum an eye witness who himself was wounded during the same terrible event on the night of the th of december my wife feride hasan and i were paying a visit to the family of major dr nihat ilhan our neighbours mrs ayshe of mora her daughter ishin and mrs ayshe s sister novber were also with us we were all sitting having supper all of a sudden bullets from the pedieos river direction started to riddle the house sounding like heavy rain thinking that the dining room where we were sitting was dangerous we ran to the bathroom and toilet which we thought would be safer altogether we were nine persons we all hid in the bathroom except my wife who took refuge in the toilet we waited in fear mrs ilhan the wife of major doctor was standing in the bath with her three children murat kutsi and hakan in her arms suddenly with a great noise we heard the front door open greeks had come in and were combing every corner of the house with their machine gun bullets during these moments i heard voices saying in greek you want taksim eh and then bullets started flying in the bathroom mrs ilhan and her three children fell into the bath they were shot at this moment the greeks who broke into the bathroom emptied their guns on us again i heard one of the major s children moan then i fainted when i came to myself or hours later i saw mrs ilhan and her three children lying dead in the bath i and the rest of the neighbours in the bathroom were all seriously wounded but what had happened to my wife then i remembered and immediately ran to the toilet where in the doorway i saw her body she was brutally murdered in the street admist the sound of shots i heard voices crying help help is there no one to save us i became terrified i thought that if the greeks came again and found that i was not dead they would kill me so i ran to the bedroom and hid myself under the double bed an our passed by in the distance i could still hear shots my mouth was dry so i came out from under the bed and drank some water then i put some sweets in my pocket and went back to the bathroom which was exactly as i had left in an hour ago there i offered sweets to mrs ayshe her daughter and mrs novber who were all wounded we waited in the bathroom until o clock in the morning i thought morning would never come we were all wounded and needed to be taken to hospital finally as we could walk mrs novber and i went out into the street hoping to find help and walked as far as koshklu chiftlik there we met some people who took us to hospital where we were operated on when i regained my consciousness i said that there were more wounded in the house and they went and brought mrs ayshe and her daughter after staying three days in the hospital i was sent by plane to ankara for further treatment there i have had four months treatment but still i cannot use my arm on my return to cyprus greeks arrested me at the airport all i have related to you above i told the greeks during my detention they then released me on foot into cyprus s devastated turkish quarter we went tonight into the sealed off turkish quarter of nicosia in which to people have been slaughtered in the last five days we were the first western reporters there and we saw some terrible sights in the kumsal quarter at no irfan bey sokagi we made our way into a house whose floors were covered with broken glass a child s bicycle lay in a corner in the bathroom looking like a group of waxworks were three children piled on top of their murdered mother in a room next to it we glimpsed the body of a woman shot in the head this we were told was the home of a turkish army major whose family had been killed by the mob in the first violence today was five days later and still they lay there rene maccoll and daniel mcgeachie from the daily express i saw in a bathroom the bodies of a mother and three infant children murdered because their father was a turkish officer max clos le figaro january serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	the genocide of azeri people by armenians between in article galaxy ucr edu raffi watnxt ucr edu raffi r kojian writes the treatment of armenians by azeri s equals the treatment bosnian muslims are getting from the bosnian serbs that is the result of living in an alternate universe with arromdians of the asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle are you ians for real a final goodbye in azerbaijan photo by associated press at a cemetery in agdam azerbaijan family members and friends grieved during the burial of victims killed in the fighting in nagorno karabagh chingiz iskandarov right hugged the coffin containing the remains of his brother one of the victims a copy of koran lay atop the coffin the new york times final embrace photo by associated press chingiz iskenderov right weeps over coffin holding the remains of his brother as other relatives grieve at an azarbaijani cemetery yesterday amid burial of victims killed in fighting in nagorno karabagh the washington post nagorno karabagh victims buried in azerbaijani town refugees claim hundreds died in armenian attack of seven bodies seen here today two were children and three were women one shot through the chest at what appeared to be close range another refugees being treated at agdam s hospital include many with multiple stab wounds thomas goltz the washington post armenians burn azeri village in new unrest armenian guerillas attacked a strategic azeri village in nagorno karabagh and burned it to the ground on tuesday commonwealth television reported channel one television said the village of malybeili in the khodzhalin district was now cut off and a large number of wounded were left stranded itar tass news agency said several people were killed and wounded in the attack on the village tass also said shells fired from armenian villages into the azeri populated town of susha just miles south of stepenakert demolished two houses and damaged five others fierce fighting flared two weeks ago following the crash of an azeri helicopter in karabagh in which people died reuters turkish daily news cis commander pulls troops out of karabagh elif kaban a reuter correspondent in agdam reported that after a battle on wednesday azeris were burying scores of people who died when armenians overran the town of khojaly the second biggest azeri settlement in the area the world is turning its back on what s happening here we are dying and you are just watching one mourner shouted at a group of journalists helen womack the independent armenian soldiers massacre hundreds of fleeing families the attackers killed most of the soldiers and volunteers defending the women and children they then turned their guns on the terrified refugees the few survivors later described what happened that s when the real slaughter began said azer hajiev one of the three soldiers to survive the armenians just shot and shot and they came in and started carving up people with their bayonets and knives a year old man who had been shot in the back said we were walking through the brush then they opened up on us and people were falling all around my wife fell then my child thomas goltz sunday times armenian raid leaves azeris dead or fleeing about of khojaly s people were killed in tuesdays attack azerbaijani television showed truckloads of corpses being evacuated from the khocaly area brian killen reuters the washington times atrocity reports horrify azerbaijan azeri officials who returned from the seen to this town about nine miles away brought back three dead children the backs of their heads blown off women and children had been scalped said assad faradzev an aide to karabagh s azeri governor azeri television showed pictures of one truckload of bodies brought to the azeri town of agdam some with their faces apparently scratched with knives or their eyes gouged out brian killen reuters the washington times massacre by armenians being reported the republic of armenia reiterated denials that its militants had killed azeris but dozens of bodies scattered over the area lent credence to azerbaijani reports of a massacre reuters the new york times killings rife in nagorno karabagh moldova journalists in the area reported seeing dozens of corpses including some of the civilians and azerbaijani officials said armenians began shooting at them when they sought to recover the bodies fred hiatt the washington post bodies mark site of karabagh massacre a local truce was enforced to allow the azerbaijanis to collect their dead and any refugees still hiding in the hills and forest all are the bodies of ordinary people dressed in the poor ugly clorhing of workers of the we saw only one policeman and two apparent national volunteers were wearing uniform all the rest were civilians including eight women and three small children two groups apparently families had fallen together the children cradled in the women s arms several of them including one small girl had terrible head injuries only her face was left survivors have told how they saw armenians shooting them point blank as they lay on the ground anatol lieven the times london karabagh survivors flee to mountains geyush gassanov the deputy mayor of khocaly said that armenian troops surrounded the town after pm on tuesday they were accompanied by six or seven light tanks and armoured carriers we thought they would just bombard the village as they had in the past and then retreat but they attacked and our defence force couldn t do anything against their tanks other survivors described how they had been fired on repeatedly on their way through the mountains to safety for two days we crawled most of the way to avoid gunfire sukru aslanov said his daughter was killed in the battle for khodjaly and his brother and son died on the road anatol lieven the times london corpses litter hills in karabagh as we swooped low over the snow covered hills of nagorno karabagh we saw the scattered corpses apparently the refugees had been shot down as they ran suddenly there was a thump our azerbaijani helicopter had been fired on from an armenian anti aircraft post anatol lieven the times london police in western azerbaijan said they had recovered the bodies of azerbaijanis killed as they fled an armenian assault in the disputed enclave of nagorno karabagh and said they were blocked from recovering more bodies the wall street journal exiting troops attacked in nagorno karabagh withdrawal halted armenians blamed more video footage and reports from khocaly paint a grim picture of widespread civilian deaths and mutilation one woman s feet appeared to have been bound paul quinn judge the boston globe to be continued serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re armenia and azerbaijan two views in article may seas smu edu pts seas smu edu paul thompson schreiber posted pts armenia and azerbaijan two views pts pts washington report on middle east affairs pts april may vol xi no pts pts pts pts pts life under blockade in yerevan pts pts by nancy najarian ms najarian wrote on her personal observations if somebody wishes to counter the reality she described fine pts pts pts pts the conflict over nagorno karabakh an azeri perspective pts pts by alec rasizade pts pts ar western readers have learned of the nagorno upper karabakh ar controversy through reports from that remote area by western ar correspondents and from commentaries by member of the long established ar armenian american community azeri views on this dispute have ar appeared rarely if at all in the western news media therefore let me ar present washington report readers with some basic truths about the ar origins of the conflict during the past two years if one reads all the commentaries on the subject a small minority of the writers have been armenia or azeri the following should be interesting ar armenian leaders claim that azerbaijan was the first to oppress and ar expel the armenian minority from the azerbaijani republic actually ar the initiative to banish the azeri minority and convert the armenian ar republic into a homogeneous state began in the winter of ar when azeris were driven out of armenia following that move ar there were massacres of armenians in the azerbaijani cities of sumgait ar in february and two years later in baku in january this not true other than simply checking the newspapers i will quote from an independent human rights report in the pax cristi netherlands september page we read by mid november many incidents took place in several places in azerbaijan the apf azeri popular front challenged the communist party for power after ten days the authorities came in with tanks to reimpose their power in nakhitchevan the last armenian villages were deported in ganja armenians were attacked and killed all armenian inhabitants fled the city between november and december refugees from ganja arrived in armenia while all azeris in armenia were chased away in this part of the world february start of organized anti armenian pogroms in azerbaijan come before november and december of ar azeri parliamentary committees have compiled evidence indicating that ar both events were inspired from moscow to secure russian imperial rule ar in the transcaucasus according to the roman principle of divide and ar rule similar conspiracies are evident throughout the five year ar history of the conflict it is interesting that the azeris killed burnt raped the armenians but the perpetrators blame russians and armenians themselves on other occasions ar each time the parties have been about to reach an agreement in ar zheleznovodsk moscow tehran rome geneva and alma ata an ar invisible hand provoked further bloodshed those interested in ar maintaining the azeri armenian conflict as well as the georgian ar turmoil are imperialist forces in russia and probably in iran incorrect when were the people of nagorno karabakh ever involved in an agreement never until azerbaijan sits down with the armenians of nagorno karabakh there will never be an end to this conflict ar the armenian offensive last spring created more than new azeri ar refugees from the captured towns of upper and lower karabakh and ar adjacent rural districts today azeri refugees throng the ar city of baku and environs providing more problems for the newly ar elected popular front government which is opposed by the rigidly ar nationalistic national independence party it s called war if the azerbaijanis didn t try to deport and allow the armenians of nagorno karabakh to live in their ways keep their armenian culture these armenians would not have had to defend their existence the azeris should not have assumed that armenians were going to roll over and play dead ar how can a western style democracy survive in a small muslim country ar where million of the million inhabitants are unemployed in the ar absence of any international effort to help azeri refugees as kurdish ar and bosnian refugees have been helped how can the azeri government ar reject the demand of these exiles to recapture their lands homes and ar possessions the azeri government should have thought about such thnings before they attempted to deprive armenians of lands homes and possessions ar such simple realities must be understood in the west ar misunderstanding caucasian politics leads both western and russian ar public opinion to imagine a permanent and therefore irreversible ar ethnic and religious rivalry in the caucasus true and you dr alec rasizade should practice what you preach ar i think western reluctance to interfere derives from this idea ar meanwhile continuation of the war could draw both eastern and western ar states into the conflict through activation of various security ar alliances these include on the armenian side the moscow led ar commonwealth forces under the tashkent mutual security pact signed ar may on the azeri side should turkey get involved as the ar guarantor of the nakhichevan autonomy through the kars treaty of oct ar these include the north atlantic treaty forces western interference turkish intervention the moment turkey dares step into this conflict it will close the doors of any chance of turkey being part of europe as if it ever will and will destroy the eastern third of anatolia dr rasizade international realpolitik is not as simple minded as you would have us believe ar upper karabakh generally is described in western press reports as an ar armenian enclave within azerbaijan the truth is that the armenians ar began to appear there only in the middle of the last century incorrect once again a brief scan of history addresses such a foolish claim armenians today refer to the area of nagorno karabakh as artsakh which comes from the urartian term urtekhe urtekhini no azeris yet ancient greeks referred to artsakh as orkhistena no azeris yet in the first half of the th century b c artsakh as part of ervandid armenia of media no azeris yet from the end of the th century b c artsakh was part of the armenian kingdom of ervan no azeris yet artsakh was still part of the armenian empire of tigran orkhistena or artsakh is refereed to by strabo as part of armenia no azeris yet after armenia was divided between the persian and byzantine empires in a d until artsakh was part of armenia no azeris yet end of the th century utik and artsakh became principalities of the aranshakhiks no azeris yet by the th century an artsakh dialect of armenian formed no azeris yet emperor konstantin addressees a letter to the prince of khachen to armenia khachen was the central principality of artsakh no azeris yet in the decree of paul i the number of armenian families in this area was stated as it was from the th to the th centuries that non armenians from central asia asia minor and kurdistan first began to be exercise political influence in the planes of artsakh caucasian muslims around karabakh in karabagh becomes part of russia officiallt part of russia some muslims in karabakh in the number of armenian churches in nagorno karabagh was priests parishioners in armenian towns and villages the armenian percentage of the population was over max azeris in karabakh assuming no kurds consider the following statement by the azerbaijani revcom on december the worker peasant government of azerbaidzan having been informed of the proclamation of armenia a soviet socialist republic sends its greetings to the brother people from this day the previous boundaries between armenia and azerbaidzan are annulled nagornyi karabakh zangezur and nakhichevan are recognized as integral parts of the armenian socialis republic long live the brotherhood and union of the workers and peasants of soviet armenia and azerbaidzan chairman of the revcom of azerbaidzan n narimanov people s commissar for foreign affairs guseinov ar a few years ago they celebrated the th anniversary of their ar resettlement from persia to karabakh after it came under russian ar rule no incorrect the celebration was the th anniversary of russian rule in the caucasus including karabakh ar at the same time the russian colonial administration also drew ar in russian and german settlers who were welcomed by azeris how ar would americans react if the large numbers of armenians living in ar southern california suddenly claimed an armenian homeland and ar demanded separation from california non sequitur ar armenian historians insist that before the armenian resettlement ar karabakh was inhabited by aboriginal christians that is correct armenian historians don t say this ar the people of medieval caucasian albania adopted christianity in the ar fourth century but those ancient residents had no link to and ar nothing in common with armenians considering the caucasian albans were of the armenian apostolic faith and their utilization of the armenian language in their liturgy makes such an argument totally invalid ar azeris would have a better claim to ar be successors of albania since azeris have for centuries inhabited ar dominated and developed the karabakh part of the azeri nation wishing to be part of a people non existent for nearly a millennium for geo political advantage is rather outrageous in addition to such absurdity azeris claim to be turks persians and all the while are azerizing their minorities such as the lezgians kurds tat talish and a host of other nationalities which may amount to nearly half the population of azerbaijan ar both armenia and azerbaijan last year signed the final act of the ar conference on security and cooperation in europe of and the ar paris charter for new europe of confirming their mutual ar adherence to the principle of inviolability of existing borders this ar principle means that the borders and territorial integrity of the ar republic of azerbaijan are to be guaranteed by all of the signatory ar nations not just by turkey such agreements do not give azerbaijan the right to de populate karabakh of armenians ar this is one key to intervention on behalf either of the u n the ar csce the commonwealth nato or iran the second key to untying the ar caucasian knot is to determine who is the aggressor according to the ar u n definition of fine so why has azerbaijan refused to allow un troops into the armenian enclave what is azerbaijan afraid of perhaps the fact that the territory is the home of armenians the un would by definition support the local population ar when that is accomplished the international community can and should ar apply to the aggressor in the caucasus international sanctions such as ar those presently being employed against serbia and montenegro in the ar former yugoslavia such decisive collective international action can ar halt further aggression in karabakh and prevent the armenian azeri ar conflict from growing and spreading azerbaijan s refusal to allow the armenians of karabakh to determine their own future the is issue not viewing isolating events out of context are actions that will address the karabakh conflict viewing events in a war in isolation and out of context is like viewing the landing at normandy as an act of allied aggression ar dr alec rasizade senior research officer at the academy of sciences ar of azerbaijan is a visiting researcher at the harriman institute of ar columbia university in new york ha david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia has not learned a lesson in s d p a center for regional studies anatolia and has forgotten the p o box punishment inflicted on it cambridge ma late turkish president turgut ozal
talk.politics.mideast	text of president clinton s letter to congress on iranian assets here is a press release from the white house text of president clinton s letter to congress on iranian assets to national desk contact white house press office washington may following is a letter president clinton wrote to congress on iranian assets to the congress of the united states i hereby report to the congress on developments since the last presidential report on november concerning the national emergency with respect to iran that was declared in executive order no of november and matters relating to executive order no of october this report is submitted pursuant to section c of the international emergency economic powers act u s c c and section c of the international security and development cooperation act of u s c aa c this report covers events through march the last report dated november covered events through october there have been no amendments to the iranian transactions regulations itrs cfr part or to the iranian assets control regulations iacrs cfr part since the last report the office of foreign assets control fac of the department of the treasury continues to process applications for import licenses under the itrs however as previously reported recent amendments to the itrs have resulted in a substantial decrease in the number of applications received relating to the importation of nonfungible iranian origin goods during the reporting period the customs service has continued to effect numerous seizures of iranian origin merchandise primarily carpets for violation of the import prohibitions of the itrs fac and customs service investi gations of these violations have resulted in forfeiture actions and the imposition of civil monetary penalties additional forfeiture and civil penalty actions are under review the iran united states claims tribunal the tribunal established at the hague pursuant to the algiers accords continues to make progress in arbitrating the claims before it since the last report the tribunal has rendered awards for a total of awards of that total have been awards in favor of american claimants of these were awards on agreed terms authorizing and approving payment of settlements negotiated by the parties and were decisions adjudicated on the merits the tribunal has issued decisions dismissing claims on the merits and decisions dismissing claims for jurisdictional reasons of the remaining awards approved the withdrawal of cases and were in favor of iranian claimants as of march awards to successful american claimants from the security account held by the nv settlement bank stood at as of march the security account has fallen below the required balance of million times iran has periodically replenished the account as required by the algiers accords by transferring funds from the separate account held by the nv settlement bank in which interest on the security account is deposited iran has also replenished the account with the proceeds from the sale of iranian origin oil imported into the united states pursuant to transactions licensed on a case by case basis by fac iran has not however replenished the account since the last oil sale deposit on october the aggregate amount that has been transferred from the interest account to the security account is as of march the total amount in the security account was and the total amount in the interest account was the tribunal continues to make progress in the arbitration of claims of u s nationals for or more since the last report nine large claims have been decided more than percent of the nonbank claims have now been disposed of through adjudication settlement or voluntary withdrawal leaving such claims on the docket the larger claims the resolution of which has been slowed by their complexity are finally being resolved sometimes with sizable awards to the u s claimants for example two claimants were awarded more than million each by the tribunal in october as anticipated by the may agreement settling the claims of u s nationals for less than the foreign claims settlement commission fcsc has continued its review of claims the fcsc has issued decisions in claims for total awards of more than million the fcsc expects to complete its adjudication of the remaining claims in early in coordination with concerned government agencies the department of state continues to present united states government claims against iran as well as responses by the united states government to claims brought against it by iran in november the united states filed volumes of supporting information in case b claims iran s claim against the united states for damages relating to its foreign military sales program in february of this year the united states participated in a daylong prehearing conference in several other cases involving military equipment iran also filed a new interpretative dispute alleging that the failure of u s courts to enforce an award against a u s corporation violated the algiers accords as reported in november jose maria ruda president of the tribunal tendered his resignation on october no successor has yet been named judge ruda s resignation will take effect as soon as a successor becomes available to take up his duties the situation reviewed above continues to involve important diplomatic financial and legal interests of the united states and its nationals iran s policy behavior presents challenges to the national security and foreign policy of the united states the iacrs issued pursuant to executive order no continue to play an important role in structuring our relationship with iran and in enabling the united states to implement properly the algiers accords similarly the itrs issued pursuant to executive order no continue to advance important objectives in combatting inter national terrorism i shall exercise the powers at my disposal to deal with these problems and will report periodically to the congress on significant developments william j clinton the white house may nigel allen toronto ontario canada ae freenet carleton ca
talk.politics.mideast	re as muslim women and children were being massacred by armenians in article galaxy ucr edu raffi watnxt ucr edu raffi r kojian writes come again the image conscious armenians sorely feel a missing glory in their background armenians have never achieved statehood and independence they have always been subservient and engaged in undermining schemes against their rulers they committed genocide against the muslim populations of eastern anatolia and x soviet armenia before and during world war i and fully participated in the extermination of the european jewry during world war ii belligerence genocide back stabbing rebelliousness and disloyalty have been the hallmarks of the armenian history to obliterate these episodes the armenians engaged in tailoring history to suit their whims in this zeal they tried to cover up the cold blooded genocide of million turks and kurds before and during world war i source documents volume i document no archive no cabin no drawer no file no section no contents no to th division command militia commander ismail hakki your note was not on target at all armenians have had many independent times in their long and beautiful history including an independent your ignorance is hardly characteristic of most ians sarkis atamian explains in his book called the armenian community new york philosophical library that according to historians original fatherland of the armenians was in thessaly greece armenian invaders burned and sacked the fatherland of urartus massacred and exterminated its population and presented to the world all those left from the urartus as the armenian civilization all reliable western historians describe how armenians ruthlessly exterminated million muslim women children and elderly people of eastern anatolia and how they collaborated with the enemies of the muslim people between it is unfortunately a truth that armenians are known as collaborators of the nazis during world war ii and that even today criminal members of the asala sdpa arf terrorism triangle preach and instigate racism hatred violence and terrorism among peoples please tell me how on earth armenians fully participated in the genocide of jews during wwii are you on some heavy drugs who says arromdians are no damn good during world war ii armenians were carried away with the german might and cringing and fawning over the nazis in that zeal the armenian publication in germany hairenik carried statements as follows sometimes it is difficult to eradicate these poisonous elements the jews when they have struck deep root like a chronic disease and when it becomes necessary for a people the nazis to eradicate them in an uncommon method these attempts are regarded as revolutionary during the surgical operation the flow of blood is a natural thing now for a brief view of the armenian genocide of the muslims and jews extracts from a letter dated december published in the san francisco chronicle as an answer to a letter that had been published in the same journal under the signature of one b amarian we have first hand information and evidence of armenian atrocities against our people jews members of our family witnessed the murder of members of our family near erzurum turkey by armenian neighbors bent on destroying anything and anybody remotely jewish and or muslim armenians should look to their own history and see the havoc they and their ancestors perpetrated upon their neighbors armenians were in league with hitler in the last war on his premise to grant themselves government if in return the armenians would help exterminate jews armenians were also hearty proponents of the anti semitic acts in league with the russian communists signed elihu ben levi vacaville california james g mandalian dro drastamat kanayan in the armenian review a quarterly by the hairenik association inc summer june vol x no and stick around serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	the x soviet armenian government must recognize the turkish genocide in article galaxy ucr edu raffi watnxt ucr edu raffi r kojian writes i suspect it might have to do with pan turkism blinding certain people you don t get it do you during the years of world war i the x soviet armenian government has planned and perpetrated the genocide of the muslim people which not only took the lives of million muslim people but was also the method used to empty the turkish homeland of its inhabitants to this day turkish historic lands remain occupied by the x soviet armenia in order to cover up the fact of its usurpation of the historic turkish homeland which is the crux of turkish political demands fascist x soviet armenia continues its anti turkish policy in the following ways x soviet armenia denies the historical fact of the turkish genocide in order to shift international public opinion away from its political responsibility x soviet armenia employing asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle attempts to call into question the veracity of the turkish genocide x soviet armenia has also implemented state sponsored terrorism through the asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle in an attempt to silence the turkish people s vehement demands and protests using all its human financial and governmental resources x soviet armenia and its tools in the united states attempt to silence through terrorism bribery and other subversive methods non turkish supporters of the turkish cause be they political governmental and humanitarian using all the aforementioned methods the x soviet armenian government is attempting to neutralize the international diplomatic community from making the turkish case a contemporary issue yet despite the efforts of the x soviet armenian government and its terrorist and revisionist organizations in the last decades thanks to the struggle of those whose closest ones have been systematically exterminated by the armenians the international wall of silence on this issue has begun to collapse and consequently a number of governments and organizations have become supportive of the recognition of the turkish genocide with the full knowledge that the struggle for the turkish territorial demands are still in their initial stages the turkish and kurdish people will unflaggingly continue in this sacred struggle therefore the victims of the turkish genocide demand that the x soviet armenian government as the heirs of the armenian dictatorship recognize the turkish genocide that x soviet armenia return the historic homeland to the turkish and kurdish people that the x soviet armenian government make material reparations for their heinous and unspeakable crime to the victims of the turkish genocide that all world governments and especially the united states officially recognize the turkish genocide and turkish territorial rights and refuse to succumb to all armenian political pressure that the u s government free itself from the friendly position it has adopted towards its unreliable ally x soviet armenia and officially recognize the historical fact of the turkish genocide as well as be supportive of the pursuit of turkish territorial demands that the x soviet republics officially recognize the historical fact of the turkish genocide and include the cold blooded extermination of million muslim people in their history books serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	u s archives on the genocide of muslim people by the armenians in article galaxy ucr edu raffi watnxt ucr edu raffi r kojian writes serdar how can a former government pay anything also what is this crap about a genocide of muslims there was no such thing i won t bother there s your problem right there asala sdpa arf crooks idiots stole your brain just watch source world alive a personal story by robert dunn crown publishers inc new york memoirs of an american officer who witnessed the armenian genocide of million muslim people p seventh paragraph and p first paragraph the most are inside houses come you and look no dammit my stomach isn t one is a turkish officer in uniform him you must see we were under those trees by the mosque in an open space i don t believe you i said but followed to a nail studded door the man pushed it ajar then spurred away leaving me to check on the corpse i thought i should this charge was so constant so gritted my teeth and went inside the place was cool but reeked of sodden ashes and was dark at first for its stone walls had only window slits rags strewed the mud floor around an iron tripod over embers that vented their smoke through roof beams black with soot all looked bare and empty but in an inner room flies buzzed as the door swung shut behind me i saw they came from a man s body lying face up naked but for its grimy turban he was about fifty years old by what was left of his face a rifle butt had bashed an eye the one left slanted as with tartars rather than with turks any uniform once on him was gone so i d no proof which he was and quickly went out gagging at the mess of his slashed genitals p first paragraph how many people lived there oh about eight hundred he yawned did you see any turk officers no sir i was in at dawn all were tartar civilians in mufti the lieutenant dozed off then i but in the small hours a voice woke me dro s he stood in the starlight bawling out an officer anyone keelhauled so long and furiously i d never heard then abruptly dro broke into laughter quick and simple as child s both were a cover for his sense of guilt i thought or hoped for somehow despite my boast of irreligion christian massacring infidels was more horrible than the reverse would have been from daybreak on armenian villagers poured in from miles around the women plundered happily chattering like ravens as they picked over the carcass of djul they hauled out every hovel s chattels the last scrap of food or cloth and staggered away packing pots saddlebags looms even spinning wheels thank you for a lot dro i said to him back in camp but now i must leave we shook hands the captain said a bientot mon camarade and for hours the old molokan scout and i plodded north across parching plains like lot s wife i looked back once to see smoke bathing all doubtless in a sack of other moslem villages up to the line of snow that was iran p at morning tea dro and his officers spread out a map of this whole high region called the karabakh deep in tactics they spoke russian but i got their contempt for allied neutral zones and their distrust of promises made by tribal chiefs a campaign shaped more raids on moslem villages p it will be three hours to take dro told me we d close in on three sides the men on foot will not shoot but use only the bayonets merrimanov said jabbing a rifle in dumbshow that is for morale dro put in we must keep the moslems in terror soldiers or civilians i asked there is no difference said dro all are armed in uniform or not but the women and children will fly with the others as best they may p the ridges circled a wide expanse its floors still hundreds of feet down the fog held solid as cotton flock djul lies under that said dro pointing our men also attack from the other sides then whee ee his whistle lined up all at the rock edge bayonets clicked upon carbines over plunged archo his black haunches rippling then followed the staff the horde nose to tail bellies taking the spur armenia in action seemed more like a pageant than war even though i heard our utica brass roar as i watched from the height it took ages for djul to show clear a tsing of machine gun fire took over from the thumping batteries cattle lowed dogs barked invisible while i ate a hunk of cheese and drank from a snow puddle mist at last folded upward as men shouted at first heard faintly the came a shrill wailing now among the cloud streaks rose darker wisps smoke red glimmered about house walls of stone or wattle into dry weeds on roofs a mosque stood in clump of trees thick and green through crooked alleys on fire horsemen were galloping after figures both mounted and on foot tartarski shouted the gunner by me others pantomimed them in escape over the rocks while one twisted a bronze shell nose loaded and yanked breech cord firing again and again shots wasted i thought when by afternoon i looked in vain for fallen branch or body but these shots and the white bursts of shrapnel in the gullies drowned the women s cries at length all shooting petered out i got on my horse and rode down toward djul it burned still but little flame showed now the way was steep and tough through dense scrub finally on flatter ground i came out suddenly through alders on smoldering houses across trampled wheat my brothers in arms were leading off animals several calves and a lamb p fourth paragraph corpses came next the first a pretty child with straight black hair large eyes she looked about twelve years old she lay in some stubble where meal lay scattered from the sack she d been toting the bayonet had gone through her back i judged for blood around was scant between the breasts one clot too small for a bullet wound crusted her homespun dress the next was a boy of ten or less in rawhide jacket and knee pants he lay face down in the path by several huts one arm reached out to the pewter bowl he d carried now upset upon its dough steel had jabbed just below his neck into the spine there were grownups too i saw as i led the sorrel around djul was empty of the living till i looked up to see beside me dro s german speaking colonel he said all tartars who had not escaped were dead p more stories of armenian murdering turks when the czarist troops fled north my hosts told me of their duty here to keep tabs on brigands turkish troop shifts hidden arms spies christian red or tartar coming in from transcaucasus then they spoke of the hell that would break loose if versailles were to put as threatened the six armenian vilayets of turkey under the control of erevan an armenia without armenians turks under christian rule his lips smacked in irony under the droopy red moustache that s bloodshed just smyrna over again on a bigger scale serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	such quaintly charming habits of the armenian barbarism and fascism in article galaxy ucr edu raffi watnxt ucr edu raffi r kojian writes nice strategy sedar maybe if you can make up so many stories about what happened in wwi you will confuse everybody into forgetting the armenian ah those poor genocide apologists such quaintly charming habits of the armenian barbarism and fascism no swinging of lies will be enough to cover up the crimes of the x soviet armenian government not a chance now let the kurdish scholars speak for themselves source hassan arfa the kurds london pp when the russian armies invaded turkey after the sarikamish disaster of their columns were preceded by battalions of irregular armenian volunteers both from the caucasus and from turkey one of these was commanded by a certain andranik a blood thirsty adventurer these armenian volunteers committed all kinds of excesses more than six hundred thousand kurds being killed between and in the eastern vilayets of turkey sources the ottoman state the ministry of war islam ahalinin ducar olduklari mezalim hakkinda vesaike mustenid malumat istanbul the french version documents relatifs aux atrocites commises par les armeniens sur la population musulmane istanbul in the latin script h k turkozu ed osmanli ve sovyet belgeleriyle ermeni mezalimi ankara in addition z basar ed ermenilerden gorduklerimiz ankara and edited by the same author ermeniler hakkinda makaleler derlemeler ankara askeri tarih belgeleri vol december document numbered askeri tarih belgeleri vol december document numbered those who were capable of fighting were taken away at the very beginning with the excuse of forced labor in road construction they were taken in the direction of sarikamis and annihilated when the russian army withdrew a part of the remaining people was destroyed in armenian massacres and cruelties they were thrown into wells they were locked in houses and burned down they were killed with bayonets and swords in places selected as butchering spots their bellies were torn open their lungs were pulled out and girls and women were hanged by their hair after being subjected to every conceivable abominable act a very small part of the people who were spared these abominations far worse than the cruelty of the inquisition resembled living dead and were suffering from temporary insanity because of the dire poverty they had lived in and because of the frightful experiences they had been subjected to including women and children such persons discovered so far do not exceed one thousand five hundred in erzincan and thirty thousand in erzurum all the fields in erzincan and erzurum are untilled everything that the people had has been taken away from them and we found them in a destitute situation at the present time the people are subsisting on some food they obtained impelled by starvation from russian storages left behind after their occupation of this area source adventures in the near east by a rawlinson jonathan cape bedford square london first published pages memoirs of a british officer who witnessed the armenian genocide of million muslim people p second paragraph i had received further very definite information of horrors that had been committed by the armenian soldiery in kars plain and as i had been able to judge of their want of discipline by their treatment of my own detached parties i had wired to tiflis from zivin that in the interests of humanity the armenians should not be left in independent command of the moslem population as their troops being without discipline and not under effective control atrocities were constantly being committed for which we should with justice eventually be held to be morally responsible p third paragraph armenian troops who having pillaged and destroyed all the moslem villages in the plain caravans of refugees were in the meanwhile constantly arriving from the plain from which the whole moslem population was fleeing with as much of their personal property as they could transport seeking to obtain security and protection p first paragraph in those moslem villages in the plain below which had been searched for arms by the armenians everything had been taken under the cloak of such search and not only had many moslems been killed but horrible tortures had been inflicted in the endeavour to obtain information as to where valuables had been hidden of which the armenians were aware of the existence although they had been unable to find them p first paragraph the armenians from the plain were attacking the kurdish line with artillery with probably a large force in support p first paragraph the arrival of this british brigade was followed by the announcement that kars province had been allotted by the supreme council of the allies to the armenians and that announcement having been made the british troops were then completely withdrawn and armenian occupation commenced hence all the trouble for the armenians at once commenced the wholesale robbery and persecution of the muslem population on the pretext that it was necessary forcibly to deprive them of their arms in the portion of the province which lies in the plains they were able to carry out their purpose and the manner in which this was done will be referred to in due course serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re mosque in jewish quarter was re israeli destruction of in article bob cos bob cos com bob blackshaw writes i always believed the statement those who do not know their history are condemned to repeat it will durant but i am beginning to believe the opposite is true here in t p m and in other newsgroups it seems that history is mainly remembered to foment hatred or to be used as a club in the history of my own people there are ample acts of shame both done by my people and done to my people since i was not party to any of those acts i refuse to accept blame for the evil acts that my ancestors committed nor do i direct hatred toward the descendants of those who committed evil acts against my ancestors the obsession with discussions of past or present events seems to be largely centered on trying to prove that they are worse than us as we see over and over that leads nowhere except to make ourselves feel superior it s as if we ve become addicted to periodic injections of self affirmation that draw their power from denigration of the other and romanticization of ourselves the hope is that we will begin sometime to apply these discussions in some way towards consideration of how to defuse the situation advancement of negotiations and the search for common ground between the parties involved of course for this to happen we can t believe that the best path to making ourselves feel better is at the expense of others as long as those valuing the coming together of opposing parties do not pursue their vision with the same passion as do those polarization specialists we will stay stuck in the circus of one upsmanship we now have we re getting precisely what we are willing to work for shalom salam and peace tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca
talk.politics.mideast	re zionist leaders frank statements elias davidsson writes ed dear pete ed ed for one who is so zionist as you you should at least know your ed hebrew young man ed ed the last sentence in your posting should read ed ed medina achat leshnai amim not echad medionnot leshtai amim ed ed i don t want to address your comments they speak for themselves ed ed best regards from a palestinian of jewish origin who talks reads and writes ed hebrew and does not hate jews nor anybody else ed ed elias the above claim that you do not hate anybody may not be quite true the falsity of this statement is easily visible in the intellectual corruption that dominates everything you post in this group your complete lack of objectivity toward israel and jewish identity in general reveal biases that indicate a great steaming heap of hatred you certainly have shown a genuine hatred for honesty and for objectivity you repeatedly post items or quotes removed from their original context so that they can be used to further an agenda of rabid opposition to the very existence of israel you have used this dishonest technique to paint a false image of several israeli leaders i can t say if you actually hate these leaders but the lies and misrepresentations of them do suggest that you have a visceral prejudice against them so while you claim that you do not hate anybody there is an ample body of evidence to suggest that this claim of yours is false it is obvious that you hate israel and it is evident that you hate the jewish people and if you are jewish you are a self hating jew there can be no doubt of this although you will call upon your jewish background in an effort to claim the high moral ground there is no doubt that you would like to see the jewish people fade away completely as a people your advocacy of intermarriage for the purpose of dissolving the jewish people is proof that you hate the jewish people and by your effort to superimpose the meaninglessness of your own jewishness on all jews you ve clearly demonstrated to me that you hate yourself who is a jew a person whose integrity decays when unmoved by the knowledge of wrong done to other people a j heschel
talk.politics.mideast	re zionist leaders frank statements in article t bph dtr usenet ins cwru edu aa cleveland freenet edu mark ira kaufman writes and if you are jewish you are a self hating jew there can be no doubt of this there are doubts about it why don t you define what self hating jew means i found the idea itself of being a self hating jew to be one of those rediculous things that people repeat and repeat because it seems to have a meaning when in fact it has none i hope you can come up with a definition in itself and not something like look at this person that is a self hating jew who is a jew a person whose integrity decays when unmoved by the knowledge of wrong done to other people a j heschel that is why i get moved when i see the israeli army killing people in the occupied territories as much as i get moved when i see a plestinian stabing people in israel aap
talk.politics.mideast	re rabin and his palestinians kapos providing safety and security for one s own people is the most fundamental responsibility of any political entity for the palestinian leadership to refuse to accept this responsibility i e take the responsibility to protect their people from radical palestinian elements who are opposed to the peace process is reprehensible to argue that a palestinian police force would be established in order to control peaceful political groups only reinforces the reality that the palestinian leadership so far can not exercise control over radical palestinian elements nor effectively deal with the killing of palestinians by palestinians this is a problem that can only be solved by the palestinian people
talk.politics.mideast	saudi clergy and their western supporters vs human rights bakken cs arizona edu dave bakken writes in article benali alcor benali alcor concordia ca ilyess b bdira writes so how would have you defended saudi arabia and rolled back the iraqi invasion were you in charge of saudi arabia all muslims knew that the whole thing was set up to destroy iraq not to liberate kuwait the people who were killed by the invasion are more many many more than the ones that were killed by the iraqis in their smaller invasion i lived in the west and i have seen how your media prepared you helpless naive americans for a war against iraq even before the artificial conflict between iraq and kuwait that led to the invasion as the cia correctly predicted and pretended to be surprised not to know it just happened that saddam was so predictible and so arrogant and stupid what would i have done most muslims would choose dead kuwaitis over dead iraqis and dead kuwaitis the first case would happen if no western intervention happened and the second case was a direct or indirect result of western envolvement human rights in kuwait what about human rights in iraq why the west gave saddam a green light to slaughter his own people i will give my reason because the rich kuwaitis do not mind to be your salves so they deserve some democracy but iraqis might not so they don t as simple as that whether or not you want to admit it i think that it is a very good idea to not have governments have an official religion de facto or de jure because with human nature like it is the ambitious and not the pious will always be the ones who rise to power there are just too many people in this world or any country for the citizens to really know if a leader is really devout or if he is just a slick operator not necessarily the best solution my view of an islamic state and that of turabi that your media made you hate includes all the benefits of a secular state minus the injustices did you ever read a book by rashid al ghannoushi tunisia hassan turabi sudan you only know about them from your self censured self controlled media if they make this kind of campaign against such a moderate thinker as turabi is and keep quite about such an extremist muslim scholar as bin bez of saudi arabia is it just does not encourage any moderation in our arab world you make it sound like these guys are angels ilyess in your clarinet posting you edited out some stuff was it the following no it was not that it was just some irrelevent stuff that i took out to go around the copyright i ceased to take the newyork times seriously in issues concerning islam it has become one of the biggest enemies although less than the other newyork daily since mortimer took it over it lies selects facts that fits its agenda and even prints racist and open anti muslim editorials what they claimed in that articles is a bunch of lies because while the selected facts are true about some of those persons the other members are actually defence lawyers and university science professors who wanted to fight corruption uncover atrocities against opposition activists and shia minority and generally increase awareness about the rights of all citizens the only thing that is common between those people is their concern for the deterioration of human rights since the saudi clan took a green light from america after the gulf to do whatever is necessary to stay in power do you know that all of the saudi ulema have been taught the same things the ones in the official iftaa are as conservative as the ones that are opposing it some of the members of the human rights committe are more pro women and wanted to defend them and that is precisely one reason that bin bez s fatwah implied for the illegality of this committee and for his claim that it represents outside interests there is a human rights issue in saudi arabia and you and ny times chose to ignore the main issue and select some of the members of that committee and actually defend the actions done against them including banning them from their jobs what a hypocricy i am not surprised really this is not the first time the official ulema are the most extremist anti women meat heads in saudi arabia the west continues on its campaign to discredit itself in the muslim community by supporting them well after bosnia i guess it has zero credibility to begin with so what the heck idha lam tastahi faf aal ma shi it if you feel no shame then do whatever you want hadith actually a better translation of the meaning would be if you do not feel ashamed from god you will do whatever you want
talk.politics.mideast	re zionist leaders frank statements in article t muj vt cville srv wam umd edu aap wam umd edu alberto adolfo pinkas writes in article t bph dtr usenet ins cwru edu aa cleveland freenet edu mark ira kaufman writes and if you are jewish you are a self hating jew there can be no doubt of this there are doubts about it why don t you define what self hating jew means i found the idea itself of being a self hating jew to be one of those i hope you can come up with a definition in itself try coming up with your own definition of any or all self hating peoples to me any who reject their culture to the point where they only see the absolute negatives of that culture generally or regarding a particular event and accept only those views purely opposing aspects of that culture thus selective belief in and use of historical facts and a complete ignoring of context results hate their culture that certainly describes elias since he has no intention of recognizing that alongside the palestinian experience and perspective there exists also that of israelis who is a jew a person whose integrity decays when unmoved by the knowledge of wrong done to other people a j heschel that is why i get moved when i see the israeli army killing people in the occupied territories as much as i get moved when i see a plestinian stabing people in israel aap and this is precisely why israeli society has been tremendously harmed by the actions it its government has felt it had to take in response to an other perceived as a threat just as with you there has long been a strident and emotional debate about the pain israelis feel when forced to balance desires for survival and moral beliefs the trauma of having to make that choice is made worse by the fact that neither can be conveniently brushed aside as a result of a reasoned political debate for the sake of the other only reshaped tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca
talk.politics.mideast	re zionist leaders frank statements in article bf fc news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes in article t muj vt cville srv wam umd edu aap wam umd edu alberto adolfo pinkas writes in article t bph dtr usenet ins cwru edu aa cleveland freenet edu mark ira kaufman writes and if you are jewish you are a self hating jew there can be no doubt of this there are doubts about it why don t you define what self hating jew means i found the idea itself of being a self hating jew to be one of those i hope you can come up with a definition in itself try coming up with your own definition of any or all self hating peoples to me any who reject their culture to the point where they only see the absolute negatives of that culture generally or regarding a particular event and accept only those views purely opposing aspects of that culture thus selective belief in and use of historical facts and a complete ignoring of context results hate their culture i believe that things are getting mixed here critizicing israel and or being anti zionist is not seeing the absolute negatives of that culture maybe because a person can see the positives of that culture is that that person opposes zionism and the actions of the state of israel i for one consider the actions of the state of israel with respect to the human rights of the palestinian people as an example of an action thaty opposes what jewish culture was suppose to uphold as an example of respect and what the jewish people learned about oppresion segregation and years in the diaspora that certainly describes elias since he has no intention of recognizing that alongside the palestinian experience and perspective there exists also that of israelis he might not want to recognize that it does not make him a self hating jew as far as i see it at most he is a person who is not telling the truth who is a jew a person whose integrity decays when unmoved by the knowledge of wrong done to other people a j heschel that is why i get moved when i see the israeli army killing people in the occupied territories as much as i get moved when i see a plestinian stabing people in israel aap and this is precisely why israeli society has been tremendously harmed by the actions it its government has felt it had to take in response to an other perceived as a threat just as with you there has long been a strident and emotional debate about the pain israelis feel when forced to balance desires for survival and moral beliefs the trauma of having to make that choice is made worse by the fact that neither can be conveniently brushed aside as a result of a reasoned political debate for the sake of the other only reshaped but so far it seems that the blame is always put on the other if you read this newsgroup for example israel is never guilty by herself she is always responding to the actions of the other and it goes as if the actions of isreal do not also affect the response of the other in a cycle that never ends also there is blindness to try to understand what the other feels and why there is always and excuse there is always a rationale to explain why things happen as they do and what is the worst part for me there seems to be all the time an intention to try to de humanize the other as if the other did not care about their future children peace etc etc tim clock ph d graduate student aap
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians ahmed shakil cs yale edu shakil waiz ahmed writes in article sueslinna g minerva cis yale edu jovanovic nick yale edu nick jovanovic writes muslim in ex yugoslavia was a nation not a religion in fact not all muslims in b h are followers of islam therefore there do did exist in ex yugoslavia christian muslims yeah that s it you ve really outdone yourself this time nick don t forget the davidian muslims islam is not a race it s a religion you can be white black fijian or alaskan i guess you didn t absorb too much of the malcolm x interest circulating you see the whole point of islam is that it stresses equality amongst all peoples now i do realize this is difficult for you to comprehend given your staunch beliefs in serbian ethnic cleansing but give it a try it s really not that difficult is your stomach all right unable to digest your lunch cool down in the context of bosnia muslims are a nation and nobody talked about them being a race it is a civil war in which the terms of secession are being negotiated with guns instead of pens the croat muslim and serb political leaders all chose to fight over the terms of secession instead of compromising and peacefully negotiating multilateral secession agreements terms of secession you are of course joking right nick nobody chose to fight bosnia and croatia were internationally recognized nations when the serbs attacked and started on their well documented genocide that makes them an outside aggressor it s a simple genocide a classical example of ethnic cleansing there is no question of civil war and yugoslavia was a recognized nation if you apply the principle of self determination to yugoslavia then you should apply it to croatia and bosnia of course you might want to apply again to kossovo bye yannis
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians michael sells m sells haverford edu writes subject re europe vs muslim bosnians from f oguocha date may gmt in article may edison usask ca f oguocha edison usask ca writes in a previous article josip eng umd edu josip loncaric wrote actually just after the first world war many muslims were killed by serbs under serbian led regime between the two world wars many croats were also killed especially during the dictatorship introduced on jan josip please don t be offended at this question who are the muslims in the bosnian context i know that a moslem muslim is a believer in islam islam is a religion and it is practised in many parts of the world but it is not yes definitely not an ethinic group ok so these bosnian muslims who are they to which ethnic group do they belong what language s do they speak do they have a different language from that of the serbs or croats the way the western press use the word muslim in this bosnian debacle has kept me wondering when the meaning of muslim moslem i knew from childhood was changed in the dictionary this is just a question no flames intended oguocha you ve asked a crucial question that underlies much of the genocide bosnian muslims are slavic in ethnicity they speak serbo croatian but there is a christo slavic ideology whereby all true slavs are christian and anyone who converted to islam thereby must have changed ethnicity by changing religion see the poems of ngegos or the novels of ivo andric who brilliantly displays these attitudes on the part of what he calls the people i e christian slavs for this reason the war criminals call all the bosnian muslims turks even though they are not ethnically turk and do not speak turkish as their first language for this reason what is actually a genocide labeled against those who are ethnically identical but religiously other is called paradoxically ethnic cleansing rather than religious cleansing you are somewhat close to truth but you shouldn t forget that nationality is a recent invention of the western europe in the days of the ottoman empire the religion was the main point of difference between social classes the ottomans didn t recognize turks arabs greeks serbs just christians muslims jews so for all the interested parties in the ottoman society the bosnian muslims were turks after all there aren t many real ethnic turks living even in turkey today even in europe it s the culture that defines the ethnicity and religion is part of one s culture thus while a war rages between serbs and croats as a continuation of wwii and older agenda the annihilation of islam and muslims from bosnian is being carried out under the cover of the serbo croat war can you support this bye yannis
talk.politics.mideast	re zionist leaders frank statements in article t aqj odv cville srv wam umd edu aap wam umd edu alberto adolfo pinkas writes in article bf fc news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes try coming up with your own definition of any or all self hating peoples to me any who reject their culture to the point where they only see the absolute negatives of that culture generally or regarding a particular event and accept only those views purely opposing aspects of that culture thus selective belief in use of historical facts and a complete ignoring of context results hate their culture i believe that things are getting mixed here critizicing israel and or being anti zionist is not seeing the absolute negatives of that culture if that culture referred to is israeli being anti zionist can be seen as a complete denial of that entity s right to exist and its legitimacy just as saying that islam has no right to establish and implement a state that includes any non muslims both are absolute one dimensional views of that culture with regard to the issue of state maybe because a person can see the positives of that culture is that that person opposes zionism and the actions of the state of israel if that were the case one would expect a few of that culture s positives to be discussed with regard to the issue at hand since the issue centers on israeli culture i have yet to hear of any positives of that culture in this discussion i for one consider the actions of the state of israel with respect to the human rights of the palestinian people as an example of an action thaty opposes what jewish culture was suppose to uphold as an example of respect and what the jewish people learned about oppresion segregation and years in the diaspora i agree with you but i also feel that when a culture feels it is confronted by another group that wishes to see that culture disassembled the first culture has little choice but to try to secure its survival as well as maintain its moral center since the culture is not about to turn away from either the matter of its survival or the valuing of its moral principles it has the virtually impossible job of balancing to discuss israel s faults and crimes without any recognition of this circumstance and reality it faces is a conscious decision based on the discussant s political biases not on an honest and empathetically open understanding of the situation the same applies to those who attempt to paint the palestinian movement as all bad and dispense with considerations of the reality facing them that certainly describes elias since he has no intention of recognizing that alongside the palestinian experience and perspective there exists also that of israelis he might not want to recognize that it does not make him a self hating jew as far as i see it at most he is a person who is not telling the truth you beg the question by centering on the symptoms while the issue of self hating addresses the motivations i certainly feel that anyone who expends so much effort inflating distorting and robbing human context from aspects of his her own culture is reflecting a degree of dislike for it since bits of that culture are bound due to his her upbringing to be a part of him her a bit of self dislike seems likely to be mixed in somewhere who is a jew a person whose integrity decays when unmoved by the knowledge of wrong done to other people a j heschel that is why i get moved when i see the israeli army killing people in the occupied territories as much as i get moved when i see a plestinian stabing people in israel and this is precisely why israeli society has been tremendously harmed by the actions it its government has felt it had to take in response to an other perceived as a threat just as with you there has long been a strident and emotional debate about the pain israelis feel when forced to balance desires for survival and moral beliefs the trauma of having to make that choice is made worse by the fact that neither can be conveniently brushed aside as a result of a reasoned political debate for the sake of the other only reshaped but so far it seems that the blame is always put on the other if you read this newsgroup for example israel is never guilty by herself she is always responding to the actions of the other and it goes as if the actions of isreal do not also affect the response of the other in a cycle that never ends also there is blindness to try to understand what the other feels and why as you well know this process of blaming the other for the morally questionable actions one side is forced by the other of course to take is thoroughly practiced by both sides if you are only hearing the pro israeli crowd s self supporting arguments that may be due to the fact that you are not listening for anything else i certainly hear the similarly distorting pro palestinian pro arab element in this newsgroup as well as in soc culture arabic there is always and excuse there is always a rationale to explain why things happen as they do and what is the worst part for me there seems to be all the time an intention to try to de humanize the other as if the other did not care about their future children peace etc etc aap i agree agree agree agree however in my response to the initial discussion above between davidsson and those opposing his presentations i saw davidsson carefully putting academic frills around a blatantly one sided series of i hate dislike them yesido yesido yesido i did not find the approach of those opposing davidsson to be centered at all on a denigration and denial of the other side i certainly do wonder if the degree to which davidsson s views on the middle east have distorted is connected to his dislike and rejection of his jewish lineage having said this however i agree with you that this constant accusing others of being self hating jews seems pointless it is not worse a label than is why you re on their side except to perhaps imply a certain degree of overly enthusiastic biasedness tim tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca
talk.politics.mideast	upi does it again two israelis four arabs killed in gaza in article israel palestiniansu yg pe clarinet com clarinews clarinet com upi writes gaza city israeli occupied gaza strip upi palestinian gunmen sunday shot and killed two israelis who entered gaza to buy cheap produce and two arabs who were assisting them elsewhere in the crowded strip israeli troops killed a month old infant and a year old boy during rock throwing clashes at two refugee camps can anybody guess this from the title not me i thought that a clash between israelis and arabs resulted in four deaths on one side and two on the other the drive by shooting outside the jewish settlement of gadid in southern gaza prompted prime minister yitzhak rabin to warn israelis they were endangering their lives by doing illegal business in the occupied territories how about being illegally settled there i am not sure about the signals the israelis are sending one day they are willing to accept a jordan west bank federation the other they do not recognize the west bank as occupied territory neither did the u s the honest brocker details of the killings omitted plo hamas graffiti both claim responsability the israelis had entered gaza in a car driven by the man from hebron now don t tell me that this could not be an israeli spy we will know later which carried the easily identified blue license plates of arab vehicles in the west bank when israelis enter gaza with their own cars which carry yellow plates they are usually stoned and burned by angry palestinian residents now the upi shows its ugly face once and for all usually it happened once this year once last year out of possibly thousands or more man how low can you get for those of you bigoted enough not to see what is transmitted here i will tell you something that is at least as close to the truth as the above babies children who venture outside their homes are usually shot and killed by the israeli soldiers army officials said the joint operation by members of the plo tied fatah hawks and the hamas connected kassem brigade arose from their anger at the army s killing of six fugitives from each group over the past month the groups sprayed graffiti on walls in khan yunis calling the attack an act of revenge for the killing of their comrades
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article may husc harvard edu stojanov husc harvard edu milan stojanovic writes in article su einnocq mojo eng umd edu josip eng umd edu josip loncaric writes the annihilation of islam turks is an older serbian agenda indeed so was annihilation of germans during wwii however it is important to quote adil zuflikarpasic in his interview to duga had serbs wanted to exterminate muslims they could have done it after the wwi when they were the most loved small nation in europe serbs did not do that although they supressed some rebellions by albanian muslims and bosnian muslims quite bloodily however this is quite a misrepresentation after wwi many bosnian muslims were killed and their land taken over by serbs and the motive was plunder not some fictitious supression of rebellion even earlier one can point to the destruction of mosques in serbia itself and expulsion of muslims here is what dr vaso cubrilovic political adviser to the serbian monarchic regime says in his memorandum the expulsion of the arnauts which he presented to the royal government of stojadinovic on march in belgrade the mode of removal describes how expulsion of ethnic albanians from kosova is to proceed through state terror and private initiative i e chetnik plunder private initiative too can assist greatly in this direction we should distribute weapons to our colonists as need be the old forms of chetnik action should be organized and secretly assisted the whole affair should be presented as a conflict between clans and if need be ascribed to economic reasons finally local riots can be incited these will be bloodily suppressed with the clans and the chetniks rather than the army there remains one more means which serbia employed with great practical effect after that is by secretly burning down albanian villages and city quarters emphasis above is mine these events in serbia itself forced out virtually all muslims during late th century this policy of state terrorism against muslims aided by chetnik private initiative has continued in wwii and today for example muhamed hadzijahic in his book od tradicije do identiteta geneza nacionalnog pitanja bosanskih muslimana sarajevo svjetlost writes pg how serbs killed a muslim in foca in wwii even though he claimed to be a serbian patriot explaining their action as follows inasmuch as you were a serb you sullied the serb name because you are a turk i e muslim and since you helped us we shall not torture you so the shot him instead of cutting his throat in the past year serbs have repeated the slaughter of muslim residents of foca destruction of mosques including priceless historical monuments completes the eradication of the muslim presence from territories claimed by serbs i strongly dispute your notion that croats had a similar older agenda in fact for the past century or two croats and muslims have seen themselves as having a lot in common and they generally had friendly relations your suggestion that croat muslim relationship is anything like serb muslim relationship is completely wrong to say that croats and muslims have a lot in common does not imply they are not separate peoples how touching i have nearly cried while i read this unfortunately mostly untrue which part do you claim is untrue explain yourself or withdraw your claim croats from croatia mostly had no contacts with muslims since they were mostly dealt with extreme preudice long time ago however one of the main agendas is turning bosnia into purely catholic state croatia never had many muslim citizens for historical reasons because it was not a part of the ottoman empire the last major battles between austro hungarian monarchy and the ottoman empire in croatia were at the end of the th century need i remind you that modern croatian nationalism came into being with dr ante starcevic who saw bosnian muslims as the best croats so much so that in he contemplated moving his operations to sarajevo you are confusing clericalist croatianism with croatian nationalism here political nationalism has always been stronger as for your other theories you are clearly overjoyed that croat muslim alliance in bosnia herzegovina is now in trouble arguments such as yours are clearly intended to create and deepen this split i should add few more things a j evans in his on foot through b h describes that catholic clergy in the last century was apparently more scared by serbs then by turks because serbs were growing stronger and unlike turks represented great danger for idea of catholic bosnia president tudjman clearly states in his book that muslims do not exist as a separate nation from croats and serbs and he many times suggested even in interviewes to foreign papers that solution is to split bosnia josip knows this and he is only working on the image of croatia in international relations you ll learn that unless weak unite to counterbalance the strong player soon they are taken over and that s the end of them balance of power thinking has brought together croats and bosnian muslims this is only natural all other alignments are unstable i m working on pointing out this basic fact croats and muslims have been aware of it for as long as serbia has existed you are wrong if you think only image is at stake here croatia has a deep interest in her alliance with bosnian muslims and vice versa i think tudjman understands this although he does not have much choice at this point tensions should have been defused better earlier before any open confrontation developed although i still think croatia will survive it will lose a lot but bosnian muslims may end up even worse off however their position now is so horrible that perhaps they do not see it getting any worse the key point is do they still have any hope left if not then all bets are off mr stojanovic is clearly very very happy about this i m deeply hurt this is not about some image but about survival of a concept of a partnership which i believe is natural and essential for both croats and muslims sigh josip
talk.politics.mideast	saudia cannot even control upi despite buying it clarinews clarinet com upi writes this is a very impotant update i will omit just a few lines and add some overhead for the sake of the copyright i say despite all the bad news for muslims around the world things are shaping up very well a lot of killings might happen in the near future though as if bosnia is not a lot right now i feel like saying what martillo said the stage is set i don t think that things will be the same in ten year on the pessimistic realistic side we can only see the stage set for more wars imposed on our people and governments being remote controlled to fight each other and to oppress their own people but i am confident they will all fall i venture to list the order sudan yemen alliance algeria libya in years tunisia one year later but egypt may face direct colonization very soon to prevent an islamic government which might take over after egypt attacks sudan and is envolved in atrocities there as it fails to achieve victory meanwhile saudia faces a civil war and goes to war with yemen sudan over it the new north african alliance algeria tun libya goes to war with morocco who attacks it u s france involved everywhere but cannot concentrate on one place especially that syria jordan iraq have to be kept under control after the cloud clears i do not know what the end result will be o k back to reality cairo egypt upi the cairo based arab organization for human rights aohr sunday called on king fahd of saudi arabia to order the release of members of the kingdom s first human rights group among those group wants released was mohamed ben abdullah al masaari spokesman of the committee for the defense of legitimate rights cdlr al masaari was arrested just before dawn saturday at his residence in riyadh s king faisal university where he worked as a physics professor human rights and media sources reported the media reports said saudi security forces also seized publications books correspondence and other documents and papers from al masaari s residence he was reportedly taken to an unknown destination the london based liberty human rights group claimed that the other five members who together with al massari formed cdlr on may were summoned for police questioning and might have been detained as well on thursday the saudi government ordered the firing and disbarment of the six activists because they established the group urging people in the kingdom with grievances to report to cdlr four of the activists were sacked from their positions with two state run saudi universities and two government departments and two lawyers including al masaari s father were disbarred and their law offices were closed the aohr said the other lawyer suleiman al rashoudi was described by aohr as the first ever to practice law in the kingdom aohr also claimed that about other people might have been arrested around the country in connection with the cdlr they were apparently people who have either responded to the group s call for reports on grievances or others closely linked to the founders saudi authorities were reported to have also been angered by reports that al masaari and others have met with u s diplomats based in riyadh the kingdom s highest religious authority the higher council of ulema muslim scholars wednesday condemned the creation of the rights group as illegal and unnecessary and warned of what it called regrettable ramifications the establishment of cdlr could have aohr whose report listed human rights violations in saudi arabia criticized the ulema s position and argued that the kingdom s islamic laws and courts did not preclude the creation of human rights groups
talk.politics.mideast	re upi does it again two israelis four arabs killed in gaza ilyess bohr concordia ca ilyess bdira writes in article israel palestiniansu yg pe clarinet com clarinews clarinet com upi writes gaza city israeli occupied gaza strip upi palestinian gunmen sunday shot and killed two israelis who entered gaza to buy cheap produce and two arabs who were assisting them elsewhere in the crowded strip israeli troops killed a month old infant and a year old boy during rock throwing clashes at two refugee camps can anybody guess this from the title can anyone figure out what kind of deranged parent was stupid enough to bring their infant on a rock throwing crusade or jihad sorry month old infants certainly don t walk around the streets on their own that would lead me to believe that some nimrod of a parent brought them along for a little terrorism not me i thought that a clash between israelis and arabs resulted in four deaths on one side and two on the other thats what happened the drive by shooting outside the jewish settlement of gadid in southern gaza prompted prime minister yitzhak rabin to warn israelis they were endangering their lives by doing illegal business in the occupied territories how about being illegally settled there i am not sure about the signals the israelis are sending one day they are willing to accept a jordan west bank federation the other they do not recognize the west bank as occupied territory neither did the u s the honest brocker details of the killings omitted plo hamas graffiti both claim responsability uhm last i heard the territories were disputed israel s occupation is not illegal they are legally allowed to remain there until a settlement is reached with the arabs which from the behavior of the palestinian negotitating team will probably be never the israelis had entered gaza in a car driven by the man from hebron now don t tell me that this could not be an israeli spy we will know later huh they were buying vegetables which carried the easily identified blue license plates of arab vehicles in the west bank when israelis enter gaza with their own cars which carry yellow plates they are usually stoned and burned by angry palestinian residents now the upi shows its ugly face once and for all usually it happened once this year once last year out of possibly thousands or more man how low can you get for those of you bigoted enough not to see what is transmitted here i will tell you something that is at least as close to the truth as the above babies children who venture outside their homes are usually shot and killed by the israeli soldiers army officials said the joint operation by members of the plo tied fatah hawks and the hamas connected kassem brigade arose from their anger at the army s killing of six fugitives from each group over the past month the groups sprayed graffiti on walls in khan yunis calling the attack an act of revenge for the killing of their comrades ed
talk.politics.mideast	one of them is a pathological liar kojian the clown or dewey in article galaxy ucr edu raffi watnxt ucr edu raffi r kojian writes i would just like to say that i hope everybody knows that everything serdar has said are lies coming from an idiot crook armenian i d take that as a compliment your criminal grandparents committed unheard of crimes resorted to all conceivable methods of despotism organized massacres poured petrol over babies and burned them raped women and girls in front of their parents who were bound hand and foot took girls from their mothers and fathers and appropriated personal property and real estate and today they put azeris in the most unbearable conditions any other nation had ever known in history source john dewey the new republic vol nov pp they armenians traitorously turned turkish cities over to the russian invader that they boasted of having raised an army of one hundred and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war and that they burned at least a hundred turkish villages and exterminated their population some of the references from eminent authors in the field of middle eastern history and eyewitnesses of the armenian genocide of million muslims the armenian revolutionary movement by louise nalbandian university of california press berkeley los angeles diplomacy of imperialism by william i lenger professor of history harward university boston alfred a knopt new york turkey in europe by sir charles elliot edward arnold london the chatnam house version and other middle eastern studies by elie kedouri praeger publishers new york washington the rising crescent by ernest jackh farrar reinhart inc new york toronto spiritual and political evolutions in islam by felix valyi mogan paul trench truebner co london the struggle for power in moslem asia by e alexander powell the century co new york london struggle for transcaucasia by feruz kazemzadeh yale university press new haven conn history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey volumes by stanford j shaw cambridge university press cambridge new york melbourne the western question in greece and turkey by arnold j toynbee constable co ltd london bombay sydney the caliph s last heritage by sir mark sykes macmillan co london men are like that by leonard a hartill bobbs co indianapolis adventures in the near east by a rawlinson dodd meade co world alive a personal story by robert dunn crown publishers inc new york from sardarapat to serves and lousanne by avetis aharonian the armenian review magazine volume fall through spring armenia on the road to independence by richard g hovanessian university of california press berkeley california the rebirth of turkey by clair price thomas seltzer new york caucasian battlefields by w b allen paul muratoff cambridge partition of turkey by harry n howard h fertig new york the king crane commission by harry n howard beirut united states policy and partition of turkey by laurence evans john hopkins university press baltimore british documents related to turkish war of independence by gothard jaeschke neside kerem demir bir sehid anasina tarihin soyledikleri turkiye nin ermeni meselesi hulbe basim ve yayin t a s ankara ingilizce birinci baski the armenian question in turkey veysel eroglu ermeni mezalimi sebil yayinevi istanbul a alper gazigiray osmanlilardan gunumuze kadar vesikalarla ermeni teroru nun kaynaklari gozen kitabevi istanbul dr kirzioglu m fahrettin kars ili ve cevresinde ermeni mezalimi kardes matbaasi ankara t c basbakanlik osmanli arsivi babiali istanbul a yildiz esas evraki b yildiz perakende c irade defterleri d cemaat i gayr i muslime defterleri e meclisi vukela mazbatalari f dahiliye nezareti kalem i mahsus dosyalari g dahiliye nezareti sifre defterleri h babiali evrak odasi siyasi kartonlar i babiali evrak odasi muhimme kartonlari t c disisleri bakanligi hazine i evrak defterdarlik a harb i umumi b muteferrik kartonlar british archives a parliamentary papers hansard commons lords b foreign office confidential print various collections c foreign office turkey correspondence annual reports d foreign office e foreign office political intelligence general correspondence f foreign office ryan papers g foreign office curzon papers h foreign office the eastern conference lausanne files india office records and library blackfriars road london a l political and security five boxes turkey treaty of peace b l p s near east turkey and greece lausanne conference c l p s d l p s french archives archives du ministere des affaires entrangeres quai d orsay paris a documents diplomatiques affaires armeniens collections b guerre turquie legion d orient c levant armenie official publications published documents diplomatic correspondence agreements minutes and others a turkey the ottoman empire and the republic of turkey akarli e ed belgelerle tanzimat istanbul gn kur atase askeri tarih belgeleri dergisi v xxxi dec askeri tarih belgeleri dergisi v xxxii dec hocaoglu m ed ittihad i anasir i osmaniye heyeti nizamnamesi istanbul meray s l trans ed lozan baris konferansi tutanaklar belgeler ankara vols meray s l o olcay ed osmanli imparatorlugu nun cokus belgeleri mondros birakismasi sevr andlasmasi ilgili belgeler ankara osmanli devleti dahiliye nezareti aspirations et agissements revolutionnaires des comites armeniens avant et apres la proclamation de la constitution ottomane istanbul ermeni komitelerinin amal ve hareket i ihtilaliyesi ilan i mesrutiyetten evvel ve sonra istanbul idare i umumiye ve vilayet kanunu istanbul muharrerat i umumiye mecmuasi v i istanbul muharrerat i umumiye mecmuasi v ii istanbul muharrerat i umumiye mecmuasi v iii istanbul muharrerat i umumiye mecmuasi v iv istanbul osmanli devleti hariciye nezareti imtiyazat i ecnebiyye nin lagvindan dolayi memurine teblig olunacak talimatname istanbul osmanli devleti harbiye nezareti islam ahalinin ducar olduklari mezalim hakkinda vesaike mustenid malumat istanbul iv ordu aliye divan i harbi orfisinde tedkik olunan mesele yi siyasiye hakkinda izahat istanbul turkozu h k ed osmanli ve sovyet belgeleriyle ermeni mezalimi ankara turkiye buyuk millet meclisi gizli celse zabitlari ankara vols russia adamof e e ed sovyet devlet arsivi belgeleriyle anadolu nun taksimi plani tran h rahmi ed h mutlucag istanbul altinay a r iki komite iki kital istanbul kafkas yollarinda hatiralar ve tahassusler istanbul turkiye de katolik propagandasi turk tarihi encumeni mecmuasi v xiv sept asaf muammer harb ve mesulleri istanbul akboy c birinci dunya harbinde turk harbi v i osmanli imparatorlugu nun siyasi ve askeri hazirliklari ve harbe girisi gn kur ankara akgun s general harbord un anadolu gezisi ve ermeni meselesi ne dair raporu kurtulus savasi baslangicinda istanbul akin i turk devrim tarihi istanbul aksin s jon turkler ve ittihad ve terakki istanbul basar z ed ermenilerden gorduklerimiz ankara ermeniler hakkinda makaleler derlemeler ankara belen f birinci dunya harbinde turk harbi ankara deliorman a turklere karsi ermeni komitecileri istanbul ege n n ed prens sabahaddin hayati ve ilmi mudafaalari istanbul ercikan a ermenilerin bizans ve osmanli imparatorluklarindaki rolleri ankara gurun k ermeni sorunu yahut bir sorun nasil yaratilir turk tarihinde ermeniler sempozyumu izmir hocaoglu m arsiv vesikalariyla tarihte ermeni mezalimi ve ermeniler istanbul karal e s osmanli tarihi v v th ed v vi nd ed v vii nd ed v viii nd ed ankara kurat y t osmanli imparatorlugu nun paylasilmasi ankara orel s s yuca ermenilerce talat pasa ya atfedilen telgraflarin icyuzu ankara also in english translation ahmad f the young turks the committee of union and progress in turkish politics oxford serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	since kojian s grandparents slaughtered more than kurds in article galaxy ucr edu raffi watnxt ucr edu raffi r kojian writes sedar you seem to have your nationalities mixed up when did you become a spokesman for kurds since your criminal grandparents ruthlessly exterminated more than kurds between and in eastern anatolia referring to notes from the personal diary of russian general l odishe liyetze on the turkish front he wrote on the nights march alone armenian butchers bayoneted and axed to death muslims in areas surrounding erzincan these barbars threw their victims into pits most likely dug according to their sinister plans to extinguish muslims in groups of my adjutant counted and unearthed such pits this is an act against our world of civilization on march lieut colonel griyaznof wrote from an official russian account of the turkish genocide roads leading to villages were littered with bayoneted torsos dismembered joints and carved out organs of muslim peasants alas mainly of women and children source doc dr azmi suslu russian view on the atrocities committed by the armenians against the turks ankara universitesi ankara pp document no archive no cabin no drawer no file no section no contents no acting commander of erzurum and deveboynu regions and commander of the second erzurum artillery regiment prisoner of war lieutenant colonel toverdodleyov the things i have heard and seen during the two months until the liberation of erzurum by the turks have surpassed all the allegations concerning the vicious degenerate characteristic of the armenians during the russian occupation of erzurum no armenian was permitted to approach the city and its environs while the commander of the first army corps general kaltiyin remained in power troops including armenian enlisted men were not sent to the area when the security measures were lifted the armenians began to attack erzurum and its surroundings following the attacks came the plundering of the houses in the city and the villages and the murder of the owners of these houses plundering was widely committed by the soldiers this plunder was mainly committed by armenian soldiers who had remained in the rear during the war one day while passing through the streets on horseback a group of soldiers including an armenian soldier began to drag two old men of seventy years in a certain direction the roads were covered with mud and these people were dragging the two helpless turks through the mud and dirt it was understood later that all these were nothing but tricks and traps the turks who joined the gendarmarie soon changed their minds and withdrew the reason was that most of the turks who were on night patrol did not return and no one knew what had happened to them the turks who had been sent outside the city for labour began to disappear also finally the court martial which had been established for the trials of murderers and plunderers began to liquidate itself for fear that they themselves would be punished the incidents of murder and rape which had decreased began to occur more frequently sometime in january and february a leading turkish citizen haci bekir efendi from erzurum was killed one night at his home the commander in chief odiselidge gave orders to find murderers within three days the commander in chief has bitterly reminded the armenian intellectuals that disobedience among the armenian enlisted men had reached its highest point that they had insulted and robbed the people and half of the turks sent outside the city had not returned we learnt the details this incident from the commander in chief odishelidge they were as follows the killings were organized by the doctors and the employers and the act of killing was committed solely by the armenian renegades more than eight hundred unarmed and defenceless turks have been killed in erzincan large holes were dug and the defenceless turks were slaughtered like animals next to the holes later the murdered turks were thrown into the holes the armenian who stood near the hole would say when the hole was filled with the corpses seventy dead bodies well this hole can take ten more thus ten more turks would be cut into pieces thrown into the hole and when the hole was full it would be covered over with soil the armenians responsible for the act of murdering would frequently fill a house with eighty turks and cut their heads off one by one following the erzincan massacre the armenians began to withdraw towards erzurum the armenian renegades among those who withdrew to erzurum from erzincan raided the moslem villages on the road and destroyed the entire population together with the villages during the transportation of the cannons ammunition and the carriages that were outside the war area certain people were hired among the kurdish population to conduct the horse carriages while the travellers were passing through erzurum the armenians took advantage of the time when the russian soldiers were in their dwellings and began to kill the kurds they had hired when the russian soldiers heard the cries of the dying kurds they attempted to help them however the armenians threatened the russian soldiers by vowing that they would have the same fate if they intervened and thus prevented them from acting all these terrifying acts of slaughter were committed with hatred and loathing lieutenant medivani from the russian army described an incident that he witnessed in erzurum as follows an armenian had shot a kurd the kurd fell down but did not die the armenian attempted to force the stick in his hand into the mouth of the dying kurd however since the kurd had firmly closed his jaws in his agony the armenian failed in his attempt having seen this the armenian ripped open the abdomen of the kurd disembowelled him and finally killed him by stamping him with the iron heel of his boot odishelidge himself told us that all the turks who could not escape from the village of ilica were killed their heads had been cut off by axes he also told us that he had seen thousands of murdered children lieutenant colonel gryaznov who passed through the village of ilica three weeks after the massacre told us the following there were thousands of dead bodies hacked to pieces on the roads every armenian who happened to pass through these roads cursed and spat on the corpses in the courtyard of a mosque which was about x meter square dead bodies were piled to a height of centimeters among these corpses were men and women of every age children and old people the women s bodies had obvious marks of rape the genitals of many girls were filled with gun powder a few educated armenian girls who worked as telephone operators for the armenian troops were called by lieutenant colonel gryaznov to the courtyard of the mosque and he bitterly told them to be proud of what the armenians had done to the lieutenant colonel s disgusted amazement the armenian girls started to laugh and giggle instead of being horrified the lieutenant colonel had severely reprimanded those girls for their indecent behaviour when he told the girls that the armenians including women were generally more licentious than even the wildest animals and that their indecent and shameful laughter was the most obvious evidence of their inhumanity and barbarity before a scene that appalled even veteran soldiers the armenian girls finally remembered their sense of shame and claimed they had laughed because they were nervous an armenian contractor at the alaca communication zone command narrated the following incident which took place on february the armenians had nailed a turkish women to the wall they had cut out the women s heart and placed the heart on top of her head the great massacre in erzurum began on february the enlisted men of the artillery division caught and stripped people then they took these people into the bath to satisfy their lusts people among this group were able to save their lives as the result of my decisive attempts the others the armenians claimed were released when they learnt that i understood what was going on among those who organized this treacherous act was the envoy to the armenian officers karagodaviev today some turks were murdered on the streets on february some armenians have shot more than ten innocent moslems the russian soldiers who attempted to save these people were threatened with death meanwhile i imprisoned an armenian for murdering an innocent turk when an armenian officer told an armenian murderer that he would be hanged for his crime the killer shouted furiously how dare you hang an armenian for killing a turk in erzurum the armenians burned down the turkish market on february i heard that the entire population of tepekoy village situated within the artillery area had been totally annihilated on the same day when antranik entered erzurum i reported the massacre to him and asked him to track down the perpetrators of this horrible act however no result was achieved in the villages whose inhabitants had been massacred there was a natural silence on the night of february the armenians deceived the russians perpetrated a massacre and escaped for fear of the turkish soldiers later it was understood that this massacre had been based upon a method organized and planned in a circular the population had been herded in a certain place and then killed one by one the number of murders committed on that night reached three thousand it was the armenians who bragged to about the details of the massacre the armenians fighting against the turkish soldiers were so few in number and so cowardly that they could not even withstand the turkish soldiers who consisted of only five hundred people and two cannons for one night and ran away the leading armenians of the community could have prevented this massacre however the armenian intellectuals had shared the same ideas with the renegades in this massacre just as in all the others the lower classes within the armenian community have always obeyed the orders of the leading armenian figures and commanders i do not like to give the impression that all armenian intellectuals were accessories to these murders no for there were people who opposed the armenians for such actions since they understood that it would yield no result however such people were only a minority furthermore such people were considered as traitors to the armenian cause some have seemingly opposed the armenian murders but have supported the massacres secretly some on the other hand preferred to remain silent there were certain others who when accused by the russians of infamy would say the following you are russians you can never understand the armenian cause the armenians had a conscience they would commit massacres and then would flee in fear of the turkish soldiers the incidents that occurred only recently clearly manifest the real nature of the armenian ideology nothing which is already done can be undone serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	million muslims perished of butchery at the hands of armenians in article c nd l inviso com robbiew inviso com robbie westmoreland writes answer don t ask don t even think about it just put this line into your global kill file well does it change the fact that during the period of to the armenian government ordered incited assisted and participated in the genocide of million muslim people because of race religion and national origin between and million turks perished of butchery at the hands of armenians the genocide involved not only the killing of innocents but their forcible deportation from the russian armenia they were persecuted banished and slaughtered while much of ottoman army was engaged in world war i the genocide treaty defines genocide as acting with a specific intent to destroy in whole or in substantial part a national ethnic racial or religious group history shows that the x soviet armenian government intended to eradicate the muslim population million turks and kurds were exterminated by the armenians international diplomats in ottoman empire at the time including u s ambassador bristol denounced the x soviet armenian government s policy as a massacre of the kurds turks and tartars the blood thirsty leaders of the x soviet armenian government at the time personally involved in the extermination of the muslims the turkish genocide museums in turkiye honor those who died during the turkish massacres perpetrated by the armenians the eyewitness accounts and the historical documents established beyond any doubt that the massacres against the muslim people during the war were planned and premeditated the aim of the policy was clearly the extermination of all turks in x soviet armenian territories the muslims of van bitlis mus erzurum and erzincan districts and their wives and children have been taken to the mountains and killed the massacres in trabzon tercan yozgat and adana were organized and perpetrated by the blood thirsty leaders of the x soviet armenian government the principal organizers of the slaughter of innocent muslims were dro antranik armen garo hamarosp daro pastirmadjian keri karakin haig pajise liantz and silikian source bristol papers general correspondence container bristol to bradley letter of september i have it from absolute first hand information that the armenians in the caucasus attacked tartar turkish villages that are utterly defenseless and bombarded these villages with artillery and they murder the inhabitants pillage the village and often burn the village serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re of azeri soil is now occupied by fascist x soviet armenia in article galaxy ucr edu raffi watnxt ucr edu raffi r kojian writes people think of azeri soil is now occupied by the fascist x soviet armenian government recently armenians attacked the azeri town of khojaly and massacred thousands of azeris the paris based association for democracy and human rights in azerbaijan puts the number of khojali victims at some of the dead were scalped and mutilated sedar it is serdar kocaoglan have you ever even considered buying a dictionary do you evn know the definition of fascist why don t you look it up post it up here and prove just say so the sunday times march morgues fill as azeris head for all out war thomas goltz the first to report the massacre by armenian soldiers in the worst violence since the breakup of the soviet union reports from agdam khojaly used to be a barren town with empty shops and treeless dirt roads yet it was still home to thousands of people who in happier times tended fields and flocks of geese last week it was wiped off the map as sickening reports trickled in to the azerbaijani border town of agdam and the bodies piled up in the morgues there was little doubt that khojaly and the stark foothills and gullies around it had been the site of the most terrible massacre since the soviet union broke apart i was the last westerner to visit khojaly that was in january and people were predicting their fate with grim resignation zumrut ezoya a mother of four on board the helicopter that ferried us into the town called her community sitting ducks ready to get shot she and her family were among the victims of the massacre on february the armenians have taken all the outlying villages one by one and the government does nothing balakisi sakikov a father of five said next they will drive us out or kill us all said dilbar his wife the couple their three sons and three daughters were killed in the assault as were many other people i had spoken to it was close to the armenian lines we knew we would have to cross there was a road and the first units of the column ran across then all hell broke loose bullets were raining down from all sides we had just entered their trap the azeri defenders picked off one by one survivors say that armenian forces then began a pitiless slaughter firing at anything moved in the gullies a video taken by an azeri cameraman wailing and crying as he filmed body after body showed a grizzly trail of death leading towards higher forested ground where the villagers had sought refuge from the armenians the armenians just shot and shot and shot said omar veyselov lying in hospital in agdam with sharapnel wounds i saw my wife and daughter fall right by me people wandered through the hospital corridors looking for news of the loved ones some vented their fury on foreigners where is my daughter where is my son wailed a mother raped butchered lost azerbaijan has said as many as refugees were killed as they tried to flee the armenians have denied this saying the civilians were caught in crossfire when hitler was asked what the world and history would say about his extermination of jews he said who today remembers the armenians are you idiot for real after all who remembers today the extermination of the tartars adolf hitler august ruth w rosenbaum durusoy the turkish holocaust turk soykirimi p kill all of the armenians reguardless of age or sex talaat pasha you must be the only moronian left on the net to believe those asala sdpa arf forgeries what a clown kill turks and kurds wherever you find them and in whatever circumstances you find them turkish children also should be killed as they form a danger to the armenian nation hamparsum boyadjian m varandian history of the dashnaktsutiun p serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	the criminal acts of the x soviet armenian government come directly in article galaxy ucr edu raffi watnxt ucr edu raffi r kojian writes serdar the above explained propaganda which certainly has nothing to do with the true facts is also today the main source of asala sdpa arf terrorists illegal activities that still try to make money out of the bodies of the innocent victims of the turkish genocide the criminal acts of the x soviet armenian government come directly under the scope of the convention on genocide adopted by the general assembly of the united nations on december containing the following provisions the contracting parties having considered the declaration made by the general assembly of the united nations in its resolution dated december that genocide is a crime under international law contrary to the spirit and aims of the united nations and condemned by the civilized world recognizing that in all periods of history genocide has inflicted great losses on humanity and being convinced that in order to liberate mankind from such odious scourge international cooperation is required members agree as hereinafter provided article the contracting parties confirm that genocide whether committed in time of peace or in time of war is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish article in the present convention genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy in whole or in part a national ethnical racial or religious group as such a killing member of the group b causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group c deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part d imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group e forcibly transferring children of the group to another group article the following acts shall be punishable a genocide b conspiracy to commit genocide c direct and public incitement to commit genocide d attempt to commit genocide article persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in article shall be punished whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers public officials or private individuals had the convention on genocide existed before the armenian massacres of the turks and kurds it would probably have been difficult for the x soviet armenian government and its responsibles to start murdering of civilian defenseless faithful ottoman citizens children and women genocide and attempt to genocide to make plans to exterminate as they have done also to urartus and jews faithful ottoman citizens conspiracy to commit genocide to incite armenians to armed revolt against the legal authority and to commit genocide direct and public incitement to commit genocide serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re the responsibles of the armenian genocide of million muslims in article galaxy ucr edu raffi watnxt ucr edu raffi r kojian writes during the period of to the armenian government ordered incited assisted and participated in the genocide of million muslim people because of race religion and national origin the x soviet my gosh sedar what armenian government armenia didn t even become no wonder you clown are in such a mess let s take sarkis atamian s an armenian dashnak sociolog book the armenian community pages and atamian quotes the immediate question concerned itself with the organization and tactics of revolution the liberation of armenia the immediate aim of the party was to be attained by oral and written propaganda terrorism both as punishment against the enemy and as a measure of self defense the creation of an avant garde of revolutionary groups to be equipped and prepared for action when other nations were prepared for a general uprising the organization of larger committees to be in constant contact with each other and subject to a central body organization of units of guerilla fighters now on page atamian s book quotes of armenian constitution if the means was revolution how was the revolution to be attained by propaganda preparation of combat units and their indoctrination encouragement of the revolutionary morale of the people the arming of the people organization of revolutionary committees espionage throughout the country and the exchange of information with the official bodies and journals organization of financial zones for public collection fighting and using the weapon of the terror on corrupt government officers spies traitors grafters and all sorts of oppressors defense of the people against attacks from the brigandry building of roads for the transport of arms wrecking and looting of governmental institutions many of the recent armenian terrorist acts against the turkish people were committed by the brainwashed members of the tzeghagron namely race worshipers of the dashnag youth organization ironically again tzeghagron was set up by an undisputed armenian nazi karekin nejdeh in see atamian loc cit page serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re europe vs muslim bosnians in article schoinas cs wisc edu schoinas fox cs wisc edu yannis schoinas writes nationality is a recent invention of the western europe in the days of the ottoman empire the religion was the main point of difference between social classes the ottomans didn t recognize turks arabs greeks serbs just christians muslims jews pardon me your ignorance cramps my conversation although the administrative mechanism was a strictly centralized one the ottoman empire was a classical example of a pluralist social order the millet system was the mechanism which shaped the social order of the multi national ottoman empire and stood behind its continuity as a matter of fact because islamic principles were in force in the ottoman empire it was natural to use religious criteria to differentiate among the various communities which constituted the empire the millet system began to be based on ethnicity in the th century under the influence of nationalism sousa writes of the existence of thirteen communities in the ottoman empire in addition to the muslim millet in these were greeks attached to the orthodox patriarchate in istanbul catholics or latins who were remnants of genoese and venetian merchants gregorian armenians attached to a patriarchate in istanbul catholic armenians syrian catholics attached to a patriarchate in mardin chaldean catholics attached to a patriarchate in mosul syrian jacobites attached to a patriarchate in mardin protestants melchites attached to a patriarchate in damascus hebrews of two rites bulgarian catholics attached to the bulgarian exarch maronites and nestorians scholars who studied the pluralistic social structure outlined briefly above concluded that the social order of the ottoman empire fit the framework of the mosaics theory n sousa the capitulatory regime of turkey its history origin and nature baltimore c s coon caravan the story of the middle east new york p and h a r gibb h bowen islamic society and the west a study of the impact of western civilization on moslem culture in the near east oxford serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	traditional and historical armenian fascism and barbarism in article galaxy ucr edu raffi watnxt ucr edu raffi r kojian writes it was five years ago that karabakh voted overwhelmingly to seperate from azerbaijan why is the un not enforcing their will is that how the mind of a compulsive liar works the scenario and genocide staged by the armenians years ago in x soviet armenia is being reenacted again this time in azerbaijan there are remarkable similarities between the plots the perpetrators and the underdogs the stories of survivors of karabag massacre year old hatin nine telling my twin grandchildren were cut to pieces in front of my eyes they told me we won t kill you but the babies have to die in front of your eyes year old huseyin ibrahimoglu our turkish village in khojalu town was blown up in two hours while killing children and babies mercilessly they said you are turks you must die year old gulsum huseyin they bayonetted my year old daughter in her stomach in front of my eyes are these stories lies have the eye witnesses been day dreaming were these stories forged by turkish journalists in the region the nonsense of such a claim is clear from the writings of british journalists too two days before we had quoted from a sunday times article they british reported the events in karabag even before turkish journalists what is more here are the pictures pictures of people who were bayonetted whose eyes were gouged ears cut off even the armenian radio couldn t claim these lies they are saying exaggeration that means somethings have happened but the situation is not as bad as reported perhaps that village of khojalu town was destroyed in hours instead of or gulsum huseyin s year old daughter was bayonetted in her chest instead of stomach the massacre is clearly seen with all its dimensions the effects of this massacre on karabag and environs cannot be reduced by any word some of the western press led by some french newspapers ability to close their eyes is nothing but complicity in this massacre yesterday we gave samples from le figaro until yesterday s print no news about the real events in karabag were printed so were the french tv channels the subject they considered related to karabag was the necessity of protecting armenians against azeri attacks the age we are living in is termed a human rights age there are lots of organizations such as united nations and csce conference on security and cooperation in europe and rules all designed to fight against human rights violations international reactions must be made with international cooperation with support of everybody and every organization claiming to be civilized could there be a more serious human rights violation than that of the right to live and with such levels of barbarity and cruelty where is the cooperation where are the reactions and the intellectuals journalists writers tv stations of certain western countries such as france who are fast to claim leadership of human rights where are you serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re saudi clergy condemns debut of human rights group in article optima cs arizona edu bakken cs arizona edu dave bakken writes in article benali alcor benali alcor concordia ca ilyess b bdira writes it looks like ben baz s mind and heart are also blind not only his eyes i used to respect him today i lost the minimal amount of respect that i struggled to keep for him to all muslim netters this is the same guy who gave a fatwah that saudi arabia can be used by the united ststes to attack iraq they were attacking the iraqis to drive them out of kuwait a country whose citizens have close blood and business ties to saudi citizens and me thinks if the us had not helped out the iraqis would have swallowed saudi arabia too or at least the eastern oilfields and no muslim country was doing much of anything to help liberate kuwait and protect saudi arabia indeed in some masses of citizens were demonstrating in favor of that butcher saddam who killed lotsa muslims just because he was killing raping and looting relatively rich muslims and also thumbing his nose at the west the whole saddam is going to invade saudi arabia was nothing but us state department propeganda saddam and iraq in general never recognised the british created kuwait they were trying to recover land they believed was theirs much like the argentines in the faulklands the kuwaitis pushed just a little too far by taking iraqi oil and saddam thought he d settle the dispute the old fashioned way everybody would have been much better off had they left the reunited iraq together and concentrated on taking out saddam a strong united iraq with an elected government would have gone a long way to ridding the world of the feudal dictatorships in the gulf but of course a weak divided arab people better suits us foriegn policy the us had no problem killing tens of thousands of ill equipted iraqi soldiers including burying several thousand alive and slaughtering retreating batallions from the air in defense of kuwaiti oil but it has yet to lift a finger against bosnian serbs while they slaughter bosnian muslims
talk.politics.mideast	re please show up in washington dc for bosnia may th in article srplfinnkth minerva cis yale edu jovanovic nick yale edu nick jovanovic writes in article sredr b venus haverford edu michael sells m sells haverford edu writes i find it interesting that mr major finds the genocide of two million muslims in bosnia acceptable now you are actually claiming that muslims have been killed in b h what if we remove one zeron and make it the genocide of two hundred thousands muslims in bosnia would that make it any better and how about the muslims who were driven and continue to be driven out of their homes is that utterly ridiculous claim and how about the rapes over women and the concentration camps the us delegation which visited them reported yesterday on cnn that the serbs are giving the muslims detainees biscuits and a cup of water a day that sure also sounds like an utterly ridiculous claim please substantiate this utterly ridiculous claim nick mohamed
talk.politics.mideast	re israel an apartheid state in article sn lm f j cville srv wam umd edu aap wam umd edu alberto adolfo pinkas writes in article may colorado edu perlman qso colorado edu eric s perlman writes so far you have presented your opinions as opposed to mine i would hardly take them as facts because you don t agree with them hmm no because a fact and an opinion are two different things what you are expressing here are opinions not facts in the abstract what you re saying is true but the facts happen to agree with me and disagree completely with you i could give you hundreds of words in my mother tongue spanish that are comonly use and you will never find in a dictionary even more i could show you a lot of meanings that words in spanish have different from those in the dictionary we re talking about the latter not the former and what you re talking about is slang in the latter that clearly has never been the case here no i am not talking about slang i am talking about different uses of the same language in different places listen pinkas i m going to count on the supposition that you think through the opinions you have something which is by the way against my better judgment based on what i ve seen from you to date we are agreed aren t we that dictionaries are reference books for the usage of a given language and in particular for the meanings of the words and phrases which comprise that language now you are using meanings completely different from indeed in some cases diametrically different from those given in the dictionary as a reference book a dictionary contains those meanings in both past and as much as it can in current use that s also why they are updated so often now if you are saying things which you give different meanings than the dictionary does and using non standard meanings about every word what is your chance of being taken at face value just about none just about no one will take you that way because the words mean something different to them it s quite clear to me from the response this thread has been getting that that is exactly what is happening ponder that and guess why isn t it curious that we do not know how many people define in how many different ways the term jew which is the basis of the movement itself no probably because the question hasn t been asked gee i hate it when people draw conclusions without information don t you i hate people who cannot read i did not draw any conclusion i just said that it is curious considering how heterogeneous the movement is what you did was ask a leading question in english idiom the phrase and guess why in the way you used it is a loaded question with only one answer expected i also take offense at being told i cannot read by someone who is obviously having trouble with the subject himself mr pinkas i am a phd candidate in my field one does not get to phd candidacy if one cannot read the law of return and jewish nationality is defined in terms of religion and not of cultural identity even if of those defined as jews in isreal are not religious for the umpteenth time it is not defined in terms of religion this has been proven to you over and over again no it has not the law of return defines a jew as someone who has a jewish mother and has not converted to another religion that is pretty the same as the religious definition that is a problem i am saying that i do not support zionism as it is now i believe that among the people in the soviet communist party some might even had been inspired by noble ideals does that change the final results of what happened in the ussr are you now wishing to compare the ussr and israel or what israel does not practice cruelty now i understand you are unable to make abstractions you cannot get the idea from a text and you take everything literally bad thing balderdash you know this is false i would be able to make the abstraction if it bore any resemblance to the facts of the matter yours did not the analogy is utterly inapplicable i wouldn t be in the field i m in astrophysics if i couldn t make abstractions and speculate about the general grand scheme of things i also wouldn t be in education which i am and my students give me rather good reviews i d add if i couldn t draw such analogies about israel not practicing cruelty ask those palestinians in israeli prisons those who were tortured those whose houses had been blown by the army the vast majority of palestinians in israeli prisons aren t tortured and their houses weren t blown up by the army in fact you ve seen me protesting such measures on this net before are you now trying to intimate my agreement with them i never said it directly nor indirectly i am not talking about individuals who defined themselves as zionists here i am sure most of them are good honest and caring people i am talking about the results of the zionist movement in other words you are taking that as a monolith and ignoring the dissension within it disagreement that is expressed freely and is widely based just as bad can you read or are you just typing at random do you know the meanings of the words you use or do you expect the reader to read your mind i can read just fine thank you and i don t need someone who is obviously having some troubles with a tongue which isn t his native one telling me how to read the words in my own native tongue if it were spanish i d ask you i am talking about a movement whose actions resulted in a law of return with a religious definition of jew a country that defines nationality based on religion then you re not talking about the movement as it exists today as i ve been trying to tell you please read the arguments i ve given you if you can still say this after reading them you need to read them again i am talking about something i consider a form of racism such as differenciation based on religious belief after all if arabs in israel cannot serve in the army is becasue they were not born in the right religion arabs in israel not only can but do serve in the idf as you well know they can serve it is true but they are not allowed to do the all the same things as the israeli citizens who happen to be jews yes they are as you well know ok fine now we know what you re talking about but do you see my point about how your words could easily have been taken differently it is not we it was you as in the second person in singular who cannot understand a text if things are not explicitly said balderdash see above once again you have a lot of gall and absolutely no right to lecture a native speaker of a language who is well educated in it in a language which isn t your own native tongue and with which you re obviously having problems so there is no difference between citizenship and nationality in israel or what do you mean by actually it doesn t i mean exactly that arab and jewish citizens of israel have the same rights if there is no difference between them why keeping them in id s better yet are you going to tell me that there are no differences in social life between arabs and jews social life is one thing legal status is another once again this is a leading question so it follows a religious definition and not a cultural one that is what i call a form of racism no because the jewish religion and culture are intimately inseparably intertwined if one renounces judaism one renounces judaism i do not believe that this is true final question is it possible to be both jewish and muslim jewish and christian your response will be enlightening how sad to see a model of decorum and tranquillity become like any other sport a battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee tim rice chess eric s perlman perlman qso colorado edu center for astrophysics and space astronomy university of colorado boulder
talk.politics.mideast	re the mufti again meanwhile they support the genocide of bosnians in article t k l cs hal gnu ai mit edu steel hal gnu ai mit edu nick steel says in article yzkcu cunyvm bitnet yaakov kayman yzkcu cunyvm bitnet writes so why not condemn the mufti for his nazi leanings and while also condemning the similarly genocidal killing of innocents muslim or not in bosnoia herzegovina hatred and bigotry remain just that no matter who practices them indeed yaqouv just like the ugly hatred spread by kahane and kahanists right or they are exempt from condemnation and allowed to hate no fool not at all like hatred of one s sworn enemies enemies who have said time and again that they mean to kill you and have by mur dering innocent men women and children shown that they really mean it the late rabbi never hated anyone merely for having been born into a par ticular group but he and i hate and would will kill anyone who comes to kill jews i recall very well rabbi kahane s words to the iraqis at a demonstration you want peace here is our hand holding out an open hand you don t want peace here is our hand holding out a fist i know you ll answer me indirectly it doesn t bother me a bit keep it up indirectly the wonder of it is that i bother answering the likes of you at all steel who s never pissed off yaakov k yzkcu cunyvm cuny edu on the internet
talk.politics.mideast	nobody knows his name i don t mean to sound disrespectful but since the majority of the contributors and may be even readers of this newsgroup seem to be muslims christians and jews my question could be of some interest to any of them it s my impression that both islam and christianity pay great respect to an obscure st century jewish lad from judea galilee why they chose this particular jew among all possible jews is a mystery to me personally i prefer woody allen his stories are much juicier but perhaps it s an accident of history anyway it seems that they may be talking about two different jews according to the new testament his father s name was joseph while in qur an he appears as zachariah who s right and why the name difference i m really curious david
talk.politics.mideast	re saudi clergy and their western supporters vs human rights ilyess sez so how would have you defended saudi arabia and rolled back the iraqi invasion were you in charge of saudi arabia all muslims knew that the whole thing was set up to destroy iraq not to liberate kuwait the people who were killed by the invasion are more many many more than the ones that were killed by the iraqis in their smaller invasion i lived in the west and i have seen how your media prepared you helpless naive americans for a war against no doubt you plan on exploiting helpless naive americans for your own purposes hmm let s see iraq even before the artificial conflict between iraq and kuwait that led to the invasion as the cia correctly predicted and pretended to be surprised not to know it just happened that saddam was so predictible and so arrogant and stupid what would i have done most muslims would choose dead kuwaitis over dead iraqis and dead kuwaitis the first case would happen if no western intervention happened and the second case was a direct or indirect result of western envolvement possibly if iraqis had indeed died but this number is based on greenpeace estimates greenpeace had compromised its alleged impartiality during the war by condemning the potential environmental consequences of allied miiltary action while initially completely ignoring iraq s horrible environmental crimes starting with the dumping of millions of barrels of oil into the gulf at ahmadi to the blowing of over oil wells what is the real number there has been a lot of work on this in the last two years none of it reported as the greenpeace figure seems to get continuously bandied about the real number seems to be around on the same order as the number of kuwaitis killed tortured and kidnapped during the occupation i ve included an article i recently posted below but this is really old news independent television news reported a figure around only a few months after the war but it was hardly reported for the allies to have killed iraqis they would have had to kill twice the total number of iraqis in kuwait the favored image of the hysterics is the last battle of the war at mutla this was yet another example of the american and european media playing into the hands of iraq and its de facto allies the destruction of the iraqi convoy at mutla was portrayed as an all out slaughter this is simply not true the head and tail of the convoy was bombed initially resulting in a lot of casualties at these points before bombers came back most of the rest of the iraqi soldiers fled on foot furthermore your estimates of kuwaiti war dead if allies hadn t invaded is completely ridiculous you have acknowledged certainly implicitly that saddam is a barbarous brute you have acknowledged the hundreds of thousands he has been responible for killing in his own country you know that the man he appointed as governor of kuwait ali majid was his most brutal henchman presiding over the near genocide of the kurds in the late s and more recently the shi a yet when it comes to his treatment of kuwaitis he is an angel in your estimate he would ve killed fewer than he already had when the war started what a joke apn iraq war dead copyright the associated press all rights reserved by nick ludington associated press writer washington ap after the persian gulf war ended the world was told that as many as iraqi soldiers were killed at one point even baghdad put the toll that high as did the u s defense intelligence agency in private but u s officials have been backpedaling ever since even though the pentagon has yet to settle on an official estimate to release to the public now one former dia analyst says the number of iraqi troops killed may have been as low as that conclusion by john heidenrich writing in the current issue of the quarterly magazine foreign policy represents the lowest estimate yet from u s defense sources the revisions suggesting a less devastating iraqi toll fit a pattern of vastly moderated u s military claims in the months after the war ended claims for a number of u s weapons also were scaled down despite the dramatic videotapes of successful weaponry or the shocking pictures of iraq s disastrous retreat from kuwait arguments have continued unabated about what really happened in the gulf war heidenrich is not the first to question the iraqi death toll numbers that originally were aired more that a year ago air force lt gen charles horner the commander of the air campaign in the gulf war said he believed the iraqi military death toll was fewer than for the entire war the pentagon itself still refuses to provide an estimate of the number of iraqis who died in the day war against the u s led coalition in january and february on monday pentagon spokesman lt cmdr joe gradisher reiterated past statements that there just isn t a number that is credible but some current internal estimates range from to iraqi troops killed said one analyst speaking on condition of anonymity who is familiar with the pentagon s reports allied deaths were put at americans by friendly fire british by american fire frenchmen italian and among various arab allies of the postwar reassessments the most widely publicized was the army s reluctant acknowledgement months later that its touted patriot air defense system was nowhere near so effective as claimed against iraq s scud missiles the bush administration initially claimed an almost perfect record for the patriot last spring it revised the hit ratio to percent the success record of the navy s tomahawk high tech cruise missile used against targets in baghdad and other parts of iraq also turned out to be more modest than initially indicated by the pentagon the first iraqi casualty figures to surface after the war came in a may report by the environmental group greenpeace which said to iraqi soldiers were killed it estimated that to iraqi civilians were also killed the same month published reports said the defense intelligence agency estimated iraqi soldiers were killed and wounded in the air and ground campaigns although the agency qualified that by saying the estimate could be off by as much as percent in either direction but as more information became available those figures gradually were revised downward the house armed services committee staff estimated dead and wounded after a review last year but heidenrich writing in the current issue of the quarterly foreign policy estimated the total death toll from both the air and ground offensives as low as with about wounded heidenrich based the conclusion in his article on the number of bodies found and buried by u s troops and on prisoner of war interviews he noted that only about of iraqi prisoners of war were wounded based on the calculation that about half as many wounded escaped as were captured he put the number of wounded at about using a conservative ratio of one dead to two wounded applicable to third world armies like iraq he set battlefield deaths at maybe the figures are too low he wrote maybe the real death toll on the battlefield was or or even even then the evidence suggests a death toll of well below or even in an interview he said the figure was obviously off base because it would mean that virtually all the iraqi soldiers in the kuwait theater of operations were casualties he said today s bloodiest wars were not those fought with high technology but rather the drawn out conflicts such as those in yugoslavia and somalia
talk.politics.mideast	re saudi clergy condemns debut of human rights group excerpts from netnews talk politics mideast may re saudi clergy condemns d robertc moldenhauer par the whole saddam is going to invade saudi arabia was nothing but us state department propeganda saddam and iraq in general never recognised the british created kuwait this is complete garbage it is kuwait faq number maintained but not compiled by me to rebut the leftist drivel frequently posted wrt kuwait first is a note on the bogus arguments that the british drew the maps to deprive iraq of oil then follows a chronology of events in kuwait s history following the chronology is a speech by the kuwaiti ambassador to the u n following this is an article on the origins of kuwait following this is a series of articles which attest to the fact that kuwait was independent of both non existent iraq and the ottoman empire the iraqi regime claims that kuwait was cut from iraq by the british in order to deprive iraq of its oil the and border treaties between kuwait and iraq represent clear testimonies against such an allegation since oil was discovered in kuwait in kuwait a chronology bc the hellens settled in al khazna hill area on failaka island al monzer bin ma a al sama a defeated al hareth al kindi in the kuwaiti area of wara the greeks lived on failaka island for two centuries a royal message was inscribed on the ikarus stone which is now on view in the national museum of kuwait ad the arabs defeated the persians at the battle of zat al salassel in the kazima area the approximate date of the establishment of kuwait town when barrak was the amir of the beni khaled tribe approximately when the al sabah family arrived in kuwait the approximate date of the election of sabah bin jaber from the al sabah family to be the first ruler of kuwait the first wall meters long was built around kuwait city abdulla bin sabah the second ruler of kuwait came to power c niebuhr the danish traveler visited kuwait which he referred to on his map as grane kuwait was attacked by an epidemic and most of its inhabitants died the kuwaitis defeated the tribe of bani k ab in the sea battle of riqqa the second wall of kuwait meters long was built the al taba ah accident in which many kuwaiti diving ships were sunk was caused by a massive tidal wave between india and muscat the first kuwaiti currency was minted in copper during the reign of sheikh abdulla al sabah ii kuwait signs a treaty with britain and becomes a protectorate see note below december al mubarakiya school the first formal school in kuwait opened the third wall of kuwait meters long was built kuwait took the first step toward democracy the formation of a consultative council but did not last for long the total number of kuwaiti pearl diving boats reached manned by over sailors and divers the first public library in kuwait was established the historian abdul aziz al rasheed published the first book on kuwait kuwait s first periodical the kuwaiti magazine was published by abdul aziz al rasheed kuwait municipality was established an amiri decree was issued prohibiting the wearing of the bisht because of soaring prices the municipality installed lighting in the kuwait market december heavy rainfall destroyed many kuwaiti houses therefore this year was called the destructive year al sannah al hadamah february oil was discovered in burgan oilfield the first general elections resulted in the first legislative council the first bank in kuwait was opened kuwait house was established in egypt to look after kuwaiti missions and interests the first kuwaiti crude oil shipment was exported kazima magazine was issued the first kuwaiti magazine to be both printed and published in kuwait sheikh ahmed al jaber al sabah who had ruled kuwait for thirty years died may kuwait radio went on the air for the first time the first kuwait masterplan was drawn up khalid al faraj the man of letters and poet died december kuwait al youm official gazette was issued for the first time oil was struck in al rawdhatain north of kuwait kuwait wall was demolished and removed the social affairs department conducted the first population census december the first issue of al arabi magazine was published the first kuwaiti woman was employed by kuwait oil company april the kuwaiti dinar became the official currency in kuwait june the agrrement of january concluded between kuwait and great britain was terminated july kuwait became a member of the arab league december kuwait fund for arab economic development was established january the elected constituent assembly met to draw up the constitution of kuwait an amiri decree was issued providing for the division of the country into three governorates november the amir of kuwait sheikh abdulla al salem al sabah ratified the first constitution of kuwait january the first elected national assembly of kuwait convened may kuwait became a member of the united nations organization august the great kuwaiti poet saqr al shebaib died november the amir of kuwait sheikh abdulla al salem al sabah passed away the neutral zone was partitioned between kuwait and saudi arabia november kuwait university was inaugurated may kuwait freed itself from all external obligations when it canceled the agreement of june april central bank of kuwait was established october the first communications satellite earth station in kuwait was inaugurated july the kuwaiti pioneer and reformer sheikh yousef bin eisa al qina ai died march the government acquired full ownership of kuwait oil company the social security law applicable to kuwaiti nationals was issued the future generations reserves law was issued it stipulates the allocation of per annum of the state revenues for future generations december the amir of kuwait sheikh sabah al salem al sabah died may kuwait signed the articles of association of the gulf cooperation council the bubiyan bridge linking bubiyan island to the mainland was opened for traffic may the amir survived an attempt on his life when a bomb laden car rammed into his motorcade on arabian gulf street from kuwait facts and figures shedding some light on september the national council on us arab relations invited the kuwaiti ambassador to the united states saud nasser al sabah the following are quotes of his speech kuwait itself was an entity identified as kuwait even before iraq was identified as iraq in the ottoman empire kuwait was in existence since we continued to be in existence until the conflict between the ottoman empire and the british and others in the area thereafter we signed with the british in a protective agreement whereby the british guaranteed the sovereignty and security of kuwait in the british and the ottoman signed an agreement defining without any doubt the borders of kuwait as they stand today such an agreement was reconfirmed in between the kuwaiti government and the iraqi government at that time that is when iraq became a state after kuwait itself in when we declared our independence iraq seized the opportunity to claim kuwait as part of iraq there were threats the british came in and arab forces came in to guarantee the sovereignty and territorial integrity of kuwait in kuwait and iraq again signed border agreement thereby defining our territory and iraq s recognition to the sovereignty and territory of kuwait compiled by firyal alshalalbi origins of kuwait the establishment of kuwait is attributed to barrak b ghurair of the bani khalid who used kuwait as a summer residence the beginning of kuwait goes back to the late th century and some historians go further up to kuwait s name is derived from al kut which means fortress kuwait is also called qurain which is the diminutive of qarn a horn or hill kuwait town flourished and grew since its establishment the utub al sabah family is a branch of utub settled in kuwait during the early th century they lived under the protection of bani khalid until after that they became independent and sabah bin jabir was chosen as the first ruler for utub carsten niebuhr a dutch explorer was among the first who wrote about the arabia he was the mathematician in the scientific expedition sent in by the king of denmark to arabia he documented details of arab tribes inhabiting both coasts of the gulf and in the case of kuwait he was the first writer to give the two names by which the town was known kuwait and qurain niebuhr s chart of the persian gulf was the best one drawn before the end of that century see the map from abu hakima history of eastern arabia pub al sabah utub kept good relations with other powers in the eastern arabia according to ahmed abu hakima s conclusions in his well documented study about the history of eastern arabia between there was no ottoman rule on the region in the second half of the th century there was no ottoman ruler in eastern arabia in fact ottoman rule was not even nominally acknowledged their attempts to restore their lost position in al hasa through the campaign of thuwayni in and ali pasha s expedition against the wahhabis in were unsuccessful at kuwait the nearest point of the utbi domains to the ottoman mutasallimiyya of basra the shaikh was under no form of ottoman control the aim of utbi external policy was to keep on friendly relations with all the forces working in the gulf p abu hakima continued in his conclusions that kuwait was not a dependency of basra the persian occupation of basra did not affect kuwait p kuwait had its own identity through the ottoman domination on the arab world this identity was clear to the british and the french who tried to win the support of kuwait s sheikh between when the british wanted his support in their conflict with the french in the gulf area independent kuwait this is the first of a series of articles that testify to the independence of kuwait throughout its history from both iraq and the ottomans the following text is related to an expedition carried out by the ottomans in against the wahhabis in eastern arabia where the oil fields in saudi arabia now kuwait and its ruler at that time sheikh abdulla ibn sabah ibn jabir allied themselves with the turks abdullah role in the fighting was not a minor one he joined the expedition as a commander of the large kuwaiti fleet and was the first to use its guns against the besieged town of al qatif had it not been for this bombardment by the kuwaiti fleet al qatif obviously would not have surrendered in a mere three hours in relation to this a question arises as to why the ottoman warships refrained from participating in the bombardment the answer lies in reports relating to the political movements that preceded accounts of the progress of the expedition because the ottomans were unwilling to jeopardize the maritime peace imposed by britain in the area the sultan and the pasha promised their warships would not be used in the war against su ud or any sheikh in the war zone kuwait which was not a party to the above mentioned treaty of was under no such obligation especially since the expedition was not directed against those who had signed it from the above text we can see that kuwait was not part of the ottomans or the british colonies for more details about the mentioned expedition please check out the source of the above text the modern history of kuwait by ahmed abu hakima mcgill university canada independent kuwait this is another article of a series of articles that testify to the independence of kuwait throughout its history from both iraq and the ottomans the following text discusses a dispute on an estate called sufiyya in zubair iraq between the sheikh of kuwait and al zuhair tribe in zubair in trouble developed over the possession by sheikh sabah of the estate which was purchased by his father sheikh jabir in this property was sequestered by a turkish qa immaqam representative on the basis of a claim by the al zuhair that the vendor had been the owner of a share and not of the n e sufiyya at the same time sheikh sabah was required to expel from other lands owned by him at the island of fao some cultivators who had immigrated from persian territory it should be recalled that the turkish officials from the start showed strong prejudice in favor of the zuhair claimants abdulla ibn sabah the eldest son of the ruler of kuwait who went to basra as his father s agent in the case narrowly escaped being thrown into jail upon his refusal to make a payment amounting to the value of seven years produce which the ottoman authorities deemed the plaintiffs were entitled to receive eventually the dispute was settled by the wali governor of baghdad in favor of the sheikh of kuwait the decision of the governor of basra in favor of the sheikh was apparently made for various reasons some writers think that the governor wanted to win abdulla over to the turkish side and suggest that the governor namiq pasha even offered him the title of qa immaqam which he declined nevertheless the proceedings of the turks in this case were regarded by the inhabitants of kuwait as attempts to cause a confrontation with zubair it seems that they had anticipated a conflict and according to reports by the british agent at basra the people of kuwait were prepared to a man to abandon their town rather than submit to turkish rule lorimer suggests that the final order of namiq pasha upholding the kuwait sheikh s title to sufiyya was perhaps due to a report that sheikh sabah with the object of attacking zubair if the decision should go against him had obtained a promise of countenance and armed support from the wahhabi amir in addition to this legal matter with zubair kuwait had had other problems with basra whose courts tried to jail abdulla ibn sabah as explained above however kuwait s relations with the ottoman mutasallims of basra had at times been amicable and in several instances those mutasallims even sought refuge at kuwait when pressured by the pashas of baghdad who exercised control over them source the modern history of kuwait by ahmed abu hakima mcgill university canada independent kuwait this is another article that testifies to the independence of kuwait throughout its history from both iraq and the ottomans when pelly colonel pelly the british resident in the gulf visited kuwait for the first time on march he was met at jahra by sheikh mubarak the second son of the ruler sheikh sabah just before he reached kuwait town on march he was met by sheikh abdulla the eldest son and heir apparent who accompanied him to the town gate on their way to a very good home which had been prepared for pelly and his companions scarcely had we entered it says pelly when sheikh sabah himself came this description of pelly s reception indicates that to a certain degree it was run according to protocol the government system of kuwait and administration of justice were the subject of comments made by pelly the government is patriarchal says pelly the sheikh managing the political and the cazee qadi the judicial departments the sheikh himself would submit to the cazee s decision punishment was rarely inflicted indeed there seems little government interference anywhere and little need of an army pelly in admiration of how the sheikh ran the affairs of the country retold the following remark which the sheikh had made to him when my father was nearly years old he called me and said i shall soon die i have made no fortune and can leave you no money but i have made many and true friends grapple them while other states around the gulf have fallen off from injustice or ill government mine has gone on flourishing hold to my policy and though you are surrounded by desert and pressed by a once hostile and still wandering set of tribes you will prosper source the modern history of kuwait by ahmed abu hakima mcgill university canada independent kuwait this is another article that testifies to the independence of kuwait throughout its history from both iraq and the ottomans the british had always regarded sheikh jabir as a good friend but in october an event took place at kuwait which could have weakened those good relations on october lieutenant edmunds the assistant resident at abu shahr in iran arrived in kuwait on a special mission from the resident captain hennell his mission was to find out if kuwait was willing to welcome the establishment of a british line of post across the desert from kuwait to the mediterranean the british war vessel fired the usual salute in honor of the sheikh after it had anchored in the waters of kuwait bay the salute was not acknowledged and edmunds waited in the vessel for three days before he was able to communicate with the sheikh after edmunds return to abu shahr both he and captain hennell explained this unusual behavior of the sheikh to have been due not to ill will but principally to a desire to mislead the egyptian agent at kuwait as to the nature of his relations with the british therefore they considered that jabir s conduct did not indicate any change in his friendly policies towards the british if the british tolerated the attitude of jabir towards edmunds so also did the egyptians earlier in the same year some of the most wanted men in the wahhabi camp such as umar ibn ufaisan the wahhabi general in al hasa and wahhabi tribes like al duwaish sought refuge in kuwait protection of refugees seeking political asylum in his country was a policy that had been adopted earlier by sheikh abdulla ibn sabah this can therefore be looked upon as an indication of self confidence an outcome of kuwait s independence from foreign powers it corroborates the fact that kuwait if necessary was prepared to defend itself against more powerful neighbors this defense depended not only on the walls of the city but also on bedouin tribes in its neighborhood and a merchant fleet equipped with the necessary guns comparable to other arab fleets of the time as to kuwait s position between and one can safely state that it managed to maintain a neutral policy with regard to the struggling wahhabis and egyptians relations with the british and even with the pasha of baghdad continued on good terms source the modern history of kuwait by ahmed abu hakima mcgill university canada they were trying to recover land they believed was theirs much like the argentines in the faulklands the kuwaitis pushed just a little too far by taking iraqi oil and saddam thought he d settle the dispute the old fashioned way are you really this cartoonish or do you seriously believe this if so please post your proof everybody would have been much better off had they left the reunited iraq together and concentrated on taking out saddam a strong united iraq with an elected government would have gone a long way to ridding the world of the feudal dictatorships in the gulf are standards at uwisc dropping since when has iraq ever had an elected government
talk.politics.mideast	re jews shoot muslim infants in article may midway uchicago edu clmn midway uchicago edu writes in article c b w kx bony bony com jake bony bony com jake livni writes you both seem to have missed the point that most states in the middle east and north africa seem to have constant border and territorial disputes not to mention boiling hatred for each other the removal of israel is not going to change this picture as much as i love israel i do think it s true that the arab jewish conflict over palestine which is now almost years old is the primary cause of instability in the middle east please explain how the removal of israel from the eqation is going to ease the situation in iran iran iraq iraq iraq kuwait syria lebanon libya algeria egypt sudan human rights freedom of press and religion slavery government oppression in authoritarian societies how are these going to be solved by removing israel from the middle east jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re jews shoot muslim infants in article c dy o nv cbfsb cb att com sadek cbnewsg cb att com mohamed s sadek writes allow me to mention that it is indeed hounorable and indeed rightious to defend oneself to fight brutal occupation and to restore the freedom of oneself or one s people not just in islam but also in the teachings of all right minded individuals what is so honorable about placing bombs in passenger airliners promising to execute rushdie killing million people in the iran iraq war murdering tourists and persecuting ethinc christians in egypt massacring christians in sudan harassing christians in and barring jews from saudi arabia how are paranoid muslims righteous in defending themsselves in these situations who are they even afraid of it is always amazing yet true that those who suffer from religious persecution are usually the ones who practice it once they are able to your hatered to islam is filling this net with foam considering that you seem to be posting from central new jersey this is an odd comment coming from you i dare you to speak your mind in the middle east in any country besides israel jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re jews shoot muslim infants in article may midway uchicago edu clmn midway uchicago edu writes in article c iq mcd bony bony com jake bony bony com jake livni writes palestine was a name given to that same area after the jews already had their own governments there for a very long time palestinean nationality is a recent political invention no more than a few decades old this is what the jew jake says to that this may be true but i think we jews dismiss palestinian nationalism at our peril its newness doesn t obviate its reality besides israeli nationalism is a new phenomenum as well israeli nationalism also known as zionism is the nationalism of the jewish people the jewish people are not a new phenomenon at all palestinean nationalism is the nationalism of arab people arabs have been around for a long time they already have some dozen states large and small covering of the middle east more specifically palestinean nationalism is the nationalism of arabs from the region of palestine just as egyptian nationalism is the nationalism of arabs from the region of egypt one palestinean state already exists in what was once known as palestine it is called jordan there is no justification in carving out a second and tiny palestinean state out of the only jewish state itself very very small just as there is no justification in carving out another american state out of mexico jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re about palestine in article bd ef ysub ysu edu ysub ysu edu writes r d benjamin my zionist friend r d it is amazing that there are still pigs like you left on this planet r d occupied palestine has become a prison for its own inhabitants thanks r d to you the zionist network around the world and those who call r d themselves the chosen people of god r d if there is a god and for as long as we have a breath left we will r d fight for our freedom benjamin don t rest too easily thanks for writing your name and identifying yourself you coward that is right hide behind your blind rhetoric but beware jle the mossad agent wil come and get you tsiel tsiel ohayon jcpl co jp this message will self destruct in seconds employer may not have same opinions if any
talk.politics.mideast	arab h r assoc nazareth from center for policy research cpr subject arab h r assoc nazareth the arab association for human rights p o box nazareth israel phone fax the arab association for human rights hra was formed in to address discriminatory practices and human rights abuses by israel against its palestinian citizens it is a unique association concerned with the civil political economic social and cultural rights of the palestinian national minority in israel among the issues of concern are land confiscation education prison conditions unemployment torture and the unequal allocation of israel s resources today there are around palestinian arabs living within the green line the pre borders of israel constituting of israel s citizens for them it is an empty citizenship in a system geared exclusively for the needs of the jewish population legally and practically israel has proclaimed itself a jewish state and early promises of equality for non jewish citizens have not been fulfilled this is apparent in many areas strongly affecting the palestinian national minority most arab agricultural land has been confiscated since the arab sector is vastly underfunded and does not receive a fair share of state resources on a day to day level palestinians face discrimination in many different forms and find it is a struggle to get permission to build a house start a business find a job or educate their children activities monitoring civil economic cultural and human rights abuses of palestinians within the green line taking carefully selected test cases to court providing legal advice and assistance to lawyers in the occupied territories educating the palestinian public as to their rights and methods of mobilization conducting public campaigns on local and international levels researching and publishing pertinent publications
talk.politics.mideast	re coward jews in article th mg f usenet ins cwru edu aa cleveland freenet edu mark ira kaufman writes for arab armies to attack israel on yom kippur i suppose it is brave to slaughter athletes at the olympics or maybe you armenians have been doing just that for a long long time source hagop hagopian said to have been part of terror attack at munich olympic games the armenian reporter february p le matin the influential paris daily based on unidentified sources claimed last week that hagop hagopian the founder and leader of one faction of the armenian secret army for the liberation of armenia asala was among the arab terrorists who staged an attack on the living quarters of israeli athletes at the olympic games le matin added that up to hagopian operated out of beirut lebanon but escaped from the country when israeli forces entered the city it was about this time that a statement issued by asala claimed that mr hagopian was dead of wounds suffered during a bombing by the israeli air force although it is generally believed that the mysterious leader is alive and well and presently is residing alternately in damascus syria and athens greece the paper also noted that the socialist government of prime minister andreas papandreou and his p a s o k party accepted the armenian underground leader with open arms and still providing him with assistance simply because of greece s traditional enmity with turkey le matin further adds that asala derives only a small portion of its expenditures from wealthy armenians who support the cause with the rest coming either from other sources or from proceeds of an involvement in drug trafficking serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re pre columbian american population levels in article tq ttinng k nsat ipp garching mpg de bds uts ipp garching mpg de bruce d scott writes you gave a good reference please who was the author of plymouth plantation you could have given more on the travel accounts radiating from someone who is incapable of providing a single scholarly source on his genocide apology program it is rather amusing again where is your non existent list of scholars and scholarly sources here is mine an appropriate analogy with the jewish holocaust might be the systematic extermination of the entire muslim population of the independent republic of armenia which consisted of at least percent of the population of that republic the memoirs of an armenian army officer who participated in and eye witnessed these atrocities was published in the u s in with the title men are like that other references abound rachel a bortnick the jewish times june in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul it is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that some of us create for ourselves it certainly is possible to severe the artificial life support system of an imagined ethnic purity that some of us falsely trust as the only structure that can support their heart beats in this alien land sahak melkonian preserving the armenian purity the crime of systematic cleansing by mass killing and extermination of the muslim population in soviet republic of armenia karabag bosnia and herzegovina is an islamic holocaust comparable to the extermination of million muslims by the armenian government during the wwi and of over million european jews during the wwii tovfik kasimov azeri leader september today s ethnic cleansing policies by the serbian dictatorship against croatians and muslims of yugoslavia as well as the soviet republic of armenia s against the muslim population of neighboring azerbaijan are really no different in their aspirations than the genocide perpetrated by the armenian government years ago against the turkish and kurdish muslims and sephardic jews living in these lands cebbar leygara kurdish leader october some of the references from eminent authors in the field of middle eastern history and eyewitnesses of the armenian genocide of million muslims the armenian revolutionary movement by louise nalbandian university of california press berkeley los angeles diplomacy of imperialism by william i lenger professor of history harward university boston alfred a knopt new york turkey in europe by sir charles elliot edward arnold london the chatnam house version and other middle eastern studies by elie kedouri praeger publishers new york washington the rising crescent by ernest jackh farrar reinhart inc new york toronto spiritual and political evolutions in islam by felix valyi mogan paul trench truebner co london the struggle for power in moslem asia by e alexander powell the century co new york london struggle for transcaucasia by feruz kazemzadeh yale university press new haven conn history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey volumes by stanford j shaw cambridge university press cambridge new york melbourne the western question in greece and turkey by arnold j toynbee constable co ltd london bombay sydney the caliph s last heritage by sir mark sykes macmillan co london men are like that by leonard a hartill bobbs co indianapolis adventures in the near east by a rawlinson dodd meade co world alive a personal story by robert dunn crown publishers inc new york from sardarapat to serves and lousanne by avetis aharonian the armenian review magazine volume fall through spring armenia on the road to independence by richard g hovanessian university of california press berkeley california the rebirth of turkey by clair price thomas seltzer new york caucasian battlefields by w b allen paul muratoff cambridge partition of turkey by harry n howard h fertig new york the king crane commission by harry n howard beirut united states policy and partition of turkey by laurence evans john hopkins university press baltimore british documents related to turkish war of independence by gothard jaeschke neside kerem demir bir sehid anasina tarihin soyledikleri turkiye nin ermeni meselesi hulbe basim ve yayin t a s ankara ingilizce birinci baski the armenian question in turkey veysel eroglu ermeni mezalimi sebil yayinevi istanbul a alper gazigiray osmanlilardan gunumuze kadar vesikalarla ermeni teroru nun kaynaklari gozen kitabevi istanbul dr kirzioglu m fahrettin kars ili ve cevresinde ermeni mezalimi kardes matbaasi ankara t c basbakanlik osmanli arsivi babiali istanbul a yildiz esas evraki b yildiz perakende c irade defterleri d cemaat i gayr i muslime defterleri e meclisi vukela mazbatalari f dahiliye nezareti kalem i mahsus dosyalari g dahiliye nezareti sifre defterleri h babiali evrak odasi siyasi kartonlar i babiali evrak odasi muhimme kartonlari t c disisleri bakanligi hazine i evrak defterdarlik a harb i umumi b muteferrik kartonlar british archives a parliamentary papers hansard commons lords b foreign office confidential print various collections c foreign office turkey correspondence annual reports d foreign office e foreign office political intelligence general correspondence f foreign office ryan papers g foreign office curzon papers h foreign office the eastern conference lausanne files india office records and library blackfriars road london a l political and security five boxes turkey treaty of peace b l p s near east turkey and greece lausanne conference c l p s d l p s french archives archives du ministere des affaires entrangeres quai d orsay paris a documents diplomatiques affaires armeniens collections b guerre turquie legion d orient c levant armenie official publications published documents diplomatic correspondence agreements minutes and others a turkey the ottoman empire and the republic of turkey akarli e ed belgelerle tanzimat istanbul gn kur atase askeri tarih belgeleri dergisi v xxxi dec askeri tarih belgeleri dergisi v xxxii dec hocaoglu m ed ittihad i anasir i osmaniye heyeti nizamnamesi istanbul meray s l trans ed lozan baris konferansi tutanaklar belgeler ankara vols meray s l o olcay ed osmanli imparatorlugu nun cokus belgeleri mondros birakismasi sevr andlasmasi ilgili belgeler ankara osmanli devleti dahiliye nezareti aspirations et agissements revolutionnaires des comites armeniens avant et apres la proclamation de la constitution ottomane istanbul ermeni komitelerinin amal ve hareket i ihtilaliyesi ilan i mesrutiyetten evvel ve sonra istanbul idare i umumiye ve vilayet kanunu istanbul muharrerat i umumiye mecmuasi v i istanbul muharrerat i umumiye mecmuasi v ii istanbul muharrerat i umumiye mecmuasi v iii istanbul muharrerat i umumiye mecmuasi v iv istanbul osmanli devleti hariciye nezareti imtiyazat i ecnebiyye nin lagvindan dolayi memurine teblig olunacak talimatname istanbul osmanli devleti harbiye nezareti islam ahalinin ducar olduklari mezalim hakkinda vesaike mustenid malumat istanbul iv ordu aliye divan i harbi orfisinde tedkik olunan mesele yi siyasiye hakkinda izahat istanbul turkozu h k ed osmanli ve sovyet belgeleriyle ermeni mezalimi ankara turkiye buyuk millet meclisi gizli celse zabitlari ankara vols russia adamof e e ed sovyet devlet arsivi belgeleriyle anadolu nun taksimi plani tran h rahmi ed h mutlucag istanbul altinay a r iki komite iki kital istanbul kafkas yollarinda hatiralar ve tahassusler istanbul turkiye de katolik propagandasi turk tarihi encumeni mecmuasi v xiv sept asaf muammer harb ve mesulleri istanbul akboy c birinci dunya harbinde turk harbi v i osmanli imparatorlugu nun siyasi ve askeri hazirliklari ve harbe girisi gn kur ankara akgun s general harbord un anadolu gezisi ve ermeni meselesi ne dair raporu kurtulus savasi baslangicinda istanbul akin i turk devrim tarihi istanbul aksin s jon turkler ve ittihad ve terakki istanbul basar z ed ermenilerden gorduklerimiz ankara ermeniler hakkinda makaleler derlemeler ankara belen f birinci dunya harbinde turk harbi ankara deliorman a turklere karsi ermeni komitecileri istanbul ege n n ed prens sabahaddin hayati ve ilmi mudafaalari istanbul ercikan a ermenilerin bizans ve osmanli imparatorluklarindaki rolleri ankara gurun k ermeni sorunu yahut bir sorun nasil yaratilir turk tarihinde ermeniler sempozyumu izmir hocaoglu m arsiv vesikalariyla tarihte ermeni mezalimi ve ermeniler istanbul karal e s osmanli tarihi v v th ed v vi nd ed v vii nd ed v viii nd ed ankara kurat y t osmanli imparatorlugu nun paylasilmasi ankara orel s s yuca ermenilerce talat pasa ya atfedilen telgraflarin icyuzu ankara also in english translation ahmad f the young turks the committee of union and progress in turkish politics oxford serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re die zeit the massacre of turkish cypriots in paphos and famagusta in article jtsilla may sparc a ccs northeastern edu jtsilla sparc a ccs northeastern edu james tsillas writes i got some e mail on this topic and decided to do some more reading i thought it would be nice to share my response with everyone how about the following scholarly source source pierre oberling the road to bellapais the turkish cypriot exodus to northern cyprus social science monographs boulder isbn well according to a book by c m woodhouse i ve read it looks like the situation was much more complicated than either of us suggest needless to say nationalism on both the greek and turkish side was strong and began in april of with confrontations over the agean as usual between the government in turkey and the ioannidis junta in july an assasination attempt against makarios then president of cyprus plotted by ioannidis ruling dictator in greece fails and makarios flees to england the journalist nicos sampson takes over in a coup led by the greek officers in the cyprus national guard turkish forces which had been mobilized in anticipation begin landing on the north shore of the island on th of july this caused the welcomed collapse of the dictatorship the th with mr karamanlis returning from well i am forced to disagree with you the greeks started massacring the turkish population on cyprus in in turkiye stepped into cyprus to preserve the lives of the turkish population there this is nothing but a simple historical fact unfortunately the intervention was too late at least for some of the victims mass graves containing numerous bodies of women and children already showed what fate had been planned for a peaceful minority the people of turkiye know quite well that greece and the greek cypriots will never abandon the idea of hellenizing cyprus and will remain eternally hopeful of uniting it with greece someday whatever the cost to the parties involved the history speaks for itself greece was the sole perpetrator of invasion on that island when it sent its troops on july in an attempt to topple the legitimate government of archibishop makarios the release of nikos sampson a member of eoka national organization of cypriot fighters and a convicted terrorist shows that the enosis mentality continues to survive in greece one should not forget that sampson dedicated his life to annihilating the turks in cyprus committed murder to achieve this goal and tried to destroy the island s independence by annexing it to greece of course the greek governments will have to bear the consequences for this irresponsible conduct turkish cypriots are simply seeking guarantees that will preclude a repeat performance by the fanatical cadres of the greeks eoka if such assurances are not perfectly implemented there is every reason to expect that the local greeks will be misguided enough to perpetrate their past mistakes on such an occasion the turkish side may not find it satisfactory to act with reluctance to go any further than before for it is unacceptable to remain always defensive against cyclical vicious attacks therefore it would be better to have a true federation of two separate sections living in obligatory peace rather than another armed confrontation that would be started by the greeks and obligatorily but decisively terminated by the turks the present greek government is trying to tyrannize the turkish population in western thrace by forbidding it its ethnic and religious rights which were established through international treaties one might be better advised to remember that misadventures against turkiye do not serve greece well an offer of membership in the european common market as bait for concessions that may doom the turks in cyprus to extinction is not a viable course for greece or her friends neither turkish lives nor turkish honor has been placed on the bidding block to be sold for commercial gain serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	news azerbaijan in article aa dumbo mem odu edu farid mem odu edu f h miandoab writes the following news from turan news agency in baku azerbaijan is brought to you as a service of azerbaijan aydinlig association p o box berkeley ca fax email farid mem odu edu p l e a s e make a hard copy of the news available to an azerbaijani near you h e a d l i n e s the new vice premier plans to intensify the work on the attraction of western investments the proposal to summon special session of the supreme soviet is rejected again the prospects of trade economic cooperation between azerbaijan and estonia azerbaijan does not intend to join the cis common economic zone the questions of granting credit to azerbaijan will be discussed in moscow azerbaijan will reply to the second variant of trilateral initiative by of may the announcement of the prosecutor of the republic of azerbaijan azerbaijan s parliament intends to appeal to russian parliament regarding the six accused soldiers armenians are preparing more karabakhs on the north caucasus state assistance for national minority development memorandum of cooperation on extracting oil gas fields of azerbaijan was signed armenia taking advantage of the prosecution of six russian soldiers new provocations of armed forces of armenia unocal company will build houses for refugees in azerbaijan manat is beginning to fall in value the discussion of parliamentary election bill will last till mid july isa gambar suggests that azeri russian parliament commission for clarifying the circumstances of the criminal case be created will the trilateral initiative be ruined fate of million tons of oil will be decided this summer the scientists lawyers of russia appealed to the president of azerbaijan armenian artillery continues firing on azeri districts azeri prime minister is leaving for great britain the new vice premier plans to intensify the work on the attraction of western investments baku may turan yesterday rasul guliyev the recently appointed vice premier of the republic received the us ambassador in azerbaijan richard miles as azerbaijan newspaper informs the issue of attraction of western investments in azerbaijan was discussed in the meeting in particular gulyiev stated that western capital has to be investigated in the most profitable spheres of manufacture he also noticed that the number of the priority manufactures will be released from debts guliyev also said that intensifying the activities of the american oil companies will promote the strengthening of the american azeri relations the proposal to summon special session of the supreme soviet is rejected again baku may turan yesterday in the sitting of the milli mejlis the chairman isa gambar rejected the proposal of the deputy arif rahimzade to summon a special session of the supreme soviet of azerbaijan this written proposal to summon a session was signed by deputates but the chairman said that the signatures were invalid and the proposal couldn t be submitted for discussion earlier the leadership of the milli mejlis called the proposal to summon a special session of the supreme soviet a coup attempt but the deputy for the parliament rahimzade doesn t consider that the deputates have the objective of removing milli mejlis and its chairman from the power it concerns the serious analysis of the social economic and foreign policy activity of the republic s authority rahimzade said that the deputates for the parliament ejected from their duties one year ago have the rights to express their opinion on these questions the supreme soviet of azerbaijan deputates was dissolved one year ago when it attempted to bring ayaz mutalibov back to the power the functions of s s were handed over to milli mejlis consisting of deputates democrats and partocrates at that time democrats and partocrates came to an agreement that milli mejlis wouldn t exist for a long time and would be dissolved after parliamentary elections at the same time the deputates ejected from their duties were guaranteed that they could summon a session of the supreme soviet any time and went in for political activity out of the parliament the prospects of trade economic cooperation between azerbaijan and estonia baku may turan the prospects of signing trade economic agreement between azerbaijan and estonia were discussed in the meeting of the foreign minister tofig gasimov with the group of experts of the ministry of economics minister of foreign affairs and estonian bank administration on may the group of experts is headed by tikht reiman the chief of the ministry of economics of estonia the mia of azerbaijan informed turan agency that in their stay in baku the delegation will also visit ministry of economics and national bank of the republic azerbaijan does not intend to join the cis common economic zone baku may turan deputy prime ministers of the republic vahid ahmedov and abbas abbasov declared that azerbaijan wouldn t join the cis common economic zone vahid ahmedov considers that the cis economic zone proposal to create a common tax system contradicts independent economic policy of the republic according to abbas abbasov the pact of cooperation proposals submitted for the discussion of the leaders of cis states in moscow on may has a number of unfavorable points for azerbaijan such announcements of two deputy prime ministers sound sensational on the background of the fact that the president of azerbaijan and the chairman of the parliament noted the necessity of the republic on joining the cis economic zone the questions of granting credit to azerbaijan will be discussed in moscow baku may turan today azerbaijani delegation headed by the director of the foreign relation department of the ministry of finance of the republic along with the representatives of the national bank will leave for moscow to hold consultation with russian government on granting credit to azerbaijan according to the preliminary information the credit will be billion rubles as press centre of ministry of finance informed turan s correspondent precise amount of the credit conditions of its repay and a number of other questions of mutual interest will be discussed in the course of the meeting in moscow it is known that this credit will be mostly used for mutual settling of industrial enterprises of azerbaijan and russia when the sides reach the agreement it is proposed for signing by the end of may azerbaijan will reply to the second variant of trilateral initiative by of may baku may turan on the measures for peace presented by russia turkey and the usa to azerbaijan and armenia the representative of the president of azerbaijan in the talks on nagorno karabakh asim gasimov noted that the plan was not seriously changed in comparison with the first variant just some comments to several points were added to the schedule by insistence of the armenian side we do not intend to come back to the analysis of the schedule because we have given a positive answer to it on may said gasimov the representative of the president of azerbaijan informed that they just began to work on the examination of the commentary and their answer would be given as requested by the authors of trilateral initiative by may as it is known the first variant of the peace measures was rejected by armenia which put forward a number of pre conditions for its acceptance the announcement of the prosecutor of the republic of azerbaijan baku may turan the azerbaijani prosecutor s office has announced that the russian mass media s attempt to portray the russian soldiers condemned by the military board of the azerbaijani supreme court as innocent people is unjustified accounts of the witnesses and the confessions of the condemned themselves prove that their crimes were committed together with the armenian military units and with the knowledge of the headquarters of the russian army unit where they served the announcement points out that the attempts to represent these soldiers as ordinary mercenaries who have nothing to do with the russian army are also unfounded for there are irrefutable evidences that these soldiers were on the list of one of the military unit s of russian commandos in yerevan certain russian circles try to conceal the fact of direct participation of the russian army in the undeclared war of armenia against azerbaijan from the russian community azerbaijan s prosecutor s announcement follows that this type of actions can make the situation in the region much more complicated azerbaijan s parliament intends to appeal to russian parliament regarding the six accused soldiers baku may turan as turan agency was informed parliament of azerbaijan is considering the question of appealing to russian parliament about the six accused soldiers fortune in particular the offer to send the representatives of the commission on military affairs of the armed forces of russian federation to baku for the detailed study of the results of six russian soldiers case will be directed to russian parliament according to one of the supporters of this offer such initiative will give russian parliament the possibility to be convinced of the correctness of the investigation there will also be a chance to discuss the reasons that have given rise to the present situation that is the russian troops participation in the war against azerbaijan armenians are preparing more karabakhs on the north caucasus baku may turan the national liberation front founded by group of armenians living on the north caucasus appealed to establish armenian autonomies on the territories of rostov stavropol and krasnodar regions reported the newspaper russky vestnik on march published in geneva the north caucasus is regarded as an integral part of armenia in the documents of this organization admitting the non realizability of reunion of the north caucasus and armenia proper at present the front is appealing to the un presidents of russia armenia and the united states to consider the need to establish armenian autonomies on the caucasus to attain these goals the armenian organization considers it necessary to carry out on the north caucasus the forms and methods of activity identical to those in nagorno karabakh besides the decision to fund cells of armenian national liberation fronts in every settlement and to appeal to leaders of armenian terrorist groups in greece and iran to sent to the north caucasus instructors for training of armenian youth to wage secret wars was adopted thus according to the newspaper russky vestnik new karabakhs are being planning on the north caucasus o state assistance for national minority development baku may turan the meeting headed by the state secretary of azerbaijan ali kerimov with the participation of the national cultural centers was held in baku the first results of the realization of the president elchibey s decree on state assistance for the development of language and culture of national minorities adopted on september were considered the state secretary called this decree as an important step to establish a legal democratic state he confirmed once more the commitment of the leadership of azerbaijan to set up a democratic society in which the rights of all nationalities and ethnic groups would be respected the state counsellor of the president of azerbaijan on the national policy hidayat orujev announced that in spite of the difficulties of the undeclared war against the republic the leaders of the state managed to solve many problems concerning the satisfaction of cultural and other needs of the ethnic groups for today all national cultural centers registered by the ministry of justice in the capital of azerbaijan are provided with accommodation furniture and means of communication all the accommodations are rent free foreign diplomatic missions in baku are placed in the hotels because of the absence of free accommodations including the representation of the un general secretary as it was noted a great work was carried out since the decree was adopted to create conditions for total development of the ethnic groups on the north of azerbaijan where lezghins live a national lezghin theater was opened radiocast is transmitted in lezghin the work over the creation of the educational literature for talyshs tats lezghins and kurds and national teaching and scientific staff is being carried out in the academy of sciences of azerbaijan o memorandum of cooperation on extracting oil gas fields of azerbaijan was signed baku may turan as turan agency was informed in the state concern azerineft the memorandum of understanding with the companies amoco caspian sea petroleum bi pi exploration operating pennzoil caspian unocal khazar ltd mcdermott and turkish oil corporation on mutual extracting of fields azeri chirag and gyuneshli was signed according to the memorandum the general group on preparing of a common program of activity was created according to the president of azerineft sabit bagirov cooperation will provide for using the experience of foreign companies more efficiently during the project the main principles will be the effective use of oil gas resources the rational sharing of investments the reducing of exploitation expenditures and maximizing the profit of azerbaijan from the exploitation of these fields the memorandum also envisions the necessity to take into account the historical and political economical interests of azerbaijan under optimum use of oil gas fields o armenia taking advantage of the prosecution of six russian soldiers baku may turan after azerbaijani court passed sentence on six russian soldiers fighting on the armenian side in karabakh armenian propaganda has become actively involved the armenians living in russia appealed to the president yeltsin with a request to display firmness in asserting the rights of russian soldiers at the same time armenian mass media call legal proceedings on the case in baku as a farce aimed at getting more arms from russia the karabakh armenians have issued a threat recently if one could believe the yerevan agency snark the armenians in karabakh presented an ultimatum to authorities in azerbaijan the essence of this ultimatum is that if russian soldiers are not shown mercy three azeri prisoners in karabakh will be shot dead it is simple to explain such touching attitude of armenians to the six russian soldiers fate if by chance the sentence is executed it will cause not anti azeri but anti armenian reaction as the accused russian soldiers were recruited in yerevan by the former defence minister of armenia and then transferred to karabakh if the soldiers get mercy armenian side will think highly of its saving of lives of innocent russians o new provocations of armed forces of armenia baku may turan according to the defence ministry of azerbaijan on may the firing on the territories of azerbaijan from the military bases on the territory of armenia was in progress the day before the villages of kolly gyshlag shotaraz nyachaflar of zangelan district of azerbaijan were under fire from kafan district of armenia two inhabitants were wounded there were destructions in the villages on may the firing on the villages of bashkend mutudere shynykh novosaratovka and novoivanovka of kedabek district of azerbaijan from the positions of armenian armed forces was in progress at the same day the diversion group of the armed forces of armenia men violated the frontier of azerbaijan penetrated into the territory of kedabek district of azerbaijan killed two shepherds at the village of aili dara and made an attempt to take a flock across the frontier azeri frontier guards stopped the enemy o unocal company will build houses for refugees in azerbaijan baku may turan as turan agency was informed by the representation of unocal american oil company the leaders of this company decided to give thousand dollars for the construction of houses for refugees at present the american side suggested a village project for consideration by appropriate departments of azerbaijan the project is a farm village where each house has a personal lot subsidiary accommodations and so on according to the program the construction and putting into operation of the village will be this year o manat is beginning to fall in value baku may turan lately at the black market of baku the national currency manat fell in price compared with the russian ruble thus one gives rubles or manats for one us dollar taking into account the official exchange value of the manat with respect to ruble which is the national currency fell in value percent meanwhile the exchange value of the manat to the ruble is the same at banks state establishments and in trade according to the representatives of the business circles and experts the present situation is explained by the fact that the rubles are bought by the local businessmen they need rubles for financial operations in russia as the remittance of payments from the republics of the former ussr to russia is a great problem now many businessmen arrange deals in cash taking into consideration the volume of business with russia counted by billions it is not hard to imagine how much rubles in cash the businessmen need o the discussion of parliamentary election bill will last till mid july baku may turan according to the president s decree the expert group including representatives of the parliament and presidential apparatus are working out new wording of the constitution of the republic of azerbaijan this must be adopted by milli mejlis before the parliamentary elections together with this the work on the new constitution that would be evidently adopted by new parliament of the country is going on the newsmen were informed about the work on the press conference of the supreme soviet of the republic the day before parliamentary legal experts safa mirzoyev simran hasanov and representatives of the department of the president s apparatus fazil mustafaev and shahin aliev took part in the press conference the national discussion of the project of the parliamentary election law is going on at present according to simran hasanov the bill didn t cause any objections it was noted that until now no alternative variant of the election law was put forward the newsmen were also informed that parliamentary commissions will examine all coming proposals till june by june all proposals will be generalized and submitted for discussion in milli mejlis isa gambar suggests that azeri russian parliament commission for clarifying the circumstances of the criminal case be created baku may turan the chairman of the milly mejlis of the azerbaijan republic isa gambar sent the return letter to the chairman of the russian supreme soviet ruslan khasbulatov in connection with the conviction of the russian servicemen lieutenant v semion sergeant k tukish m lisov and a filipov by the military college of the supreme court of azerbaijan in his letter isa gambar suggested that the commission of azerbaijan milly mejlis deputates on a par with the experts of the russian supreme soviet be established to clarify the circumstances of this criminal case in his view the conclusion of the commission could help in the objective solving of this problem as well as such kind of problems in the future but the main thing is it could help to promote the knowledge about involvement of the russian servicemen in crime in its turn in connection with the russian parliament message milly mejlis adopted a resolution on may according to which the permanent commissions on government building and legal policy human rights and international relations are charged with the exploration of this problem will the trilateral initiative be ruined baku may turan as turan agency was informed russian representative to the talks on karabakh vladimir kazimirov doubted in realization of the trilateral initiative he expressed this opinion during a telephone talk with the representatives of azerbaijan at the same talk he declared that in case the peace process deadlocked russia would pursue yeltsin s initiative itself such statement from the russian diplomat who is one of the authors of the trilateral initiative suggests that the russian leadership is paving the way for complete exclusion of the usa and probably turkey from the peacemaking process this statement can also mean that russia and us having achieved understanding on bosnian problem have agreed on partial us departure from transcaucasia fate of million tons of oil will be decided this summer baku may turan the president of azerbaijan state oil company sabit bagirov declared recently that complete treaty on development of oil fields chirag azeri and guneshli would be signed this summer as it is known western oil companies amoco bp statoil pennzoil ramco have an interest on development of these three richest caspian fields according to the plan socar and bp statoil are to sign a complete treaty on development of chirag field on june later amoco and pennzoil will sign treaties specialists value total reserves of these three fields to be million ton million of them fall on azeri field mln ton on geneshli and mln ton on chirag the exploitation of these fields is to last tens of years and it is to bring in azerbaijan billion dollars in revenue in addition to the net economic profit baku calculates upon the political support of the west in the defence of its interests at the international scene as president elchibey said in his closest encirclement the may of will be one of the most difficult periods for azerbaijan and its independence and we have to stand these tests the scientist lawyers of russia appealed to the president of azerbaijan baku may turan as the press service of the president of azerbaijan informs today the appeal of the institute of the government and law of the russian academy of sciences to president elchibey was received the appeal contains the call to display mercy humanism and clemency on the death sentences of the former servicemen of the russian armed forces the authors of the appeal point out that they don t justify the participation of the russian servicemen in the war against the azeri people don t call in question the lawfulness of the passed sentence denounce the mercenary according to the un principals and they are sorry about the russian servicemen being drawn in such grave crime at the end of their letter scientists mentioning the soldiers mothers tears and grief their praying day and night of safety ask the president of azerbaijan to save those guys it should be noticed that unlike lawyers soldiers mothers taking part in the inquiry called the cause of their grief only russian policy according to their words the leaders that lay down lives of russian men to achieve their political aims must be made answerable unfortunately the appeal didn t mention the grief of the mothers of azerbaijani soldiers killed by sentenced russian servicemen armenian artillery continues firing on azeri districts baku may turan on may two soldiers of national army of azerbaijan were killed during the grad shelling of the villages of kolly gyshlag shaifly shotaraz nyachaflar of zangelan district of the republic from the territory of kafan district of armenia the night before and in the morning of may the villages of tovuz gazakh and gubatly districts of azerbaijan were under fire from the territory of armenia there are destructions the situation in agder district of azerbaijan became complicated on may the enemy fired on the regional centre of agdere from the village of ortakend the transportation of man power and military equipment to this district is in progress according to reports the enemy is setting up a new weapon emplacement to fire on the regional centre and near by villages according to the ministry of internal affairs the concentration of man power and military equipment is observed in krasnoselsky district of armenia which borders on azerbaijan as well as on the frontier with fizuli district o azeri prime minister is leaving for great britain baku may turan the minister of foreign economic relations rauf garayev in his interview to turan agency said that great britain is the biggest foreign economic partner of azerbaijan after iran the business cooperation between the two countries develops in such spheres as oil industry the manufacture of oil extraction equipment communication and agriculture according to the minister s words the forthcoming visit of azerbaijani prime minister panah huseynov to great britain on may is very important it is expected that the visit will help to solve the problems of opening in azerbaijan the branch offices of some british banks insurance firms to conclude contracts on the sphere of manufacture of agricultural equipment on building in azerbaijan off shore oil platforms and reconstruction of the entire communication system of azerbaijan in garayev s view the expansion of the cooperation with great britain will have a great political meaning for azerbaijan according to politicians and reviewers in baku at present great britain as an european state is close to azerbaijan the continuation of the economic and political cooperation of the two states is foreseen o t u r a n n e w s a g e n c y baku azerbaijan phone fax telex meta su serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	notwithstanding her geographic location greece is un european in in article may vax bham ac uk ivrissimtzis vax bham ac uk writes turkey may be more underdeveloped if you wish but that was not the issue funny you should mention that s the whole point paliks invariably miss source united nations human development report annual output per person in dollars adjusted to purchasing power parity turkiye greece and chile are in the same category that is source international economics theory and policy by paul r krugman and maurice obstfeld harper collins publishers second edition in terms of annual output per person in dollars adjusted to purchasing power parity greece is in the same category with turkiye indeed greek governments have enormous problems to tackle the economy is in shambles corruption is rampant air pollution is in outrageous dimensions state sponsored terrorism is the name of the game and infrastructure is decaying another insightful article in the new york times sunday april exposes the dirty linen of greece and describes her as the pariah of the european community the article reports that with un european antics greece uses the community as a cash register she squanders and at times even steals the european tax payers money for political featherbedding at home the principal members of the community admit that it was a mistake to accept greece to the european community this affirmation is testimony to the fact that notwithstanding her geographic location greece is un european in mentality and attitude indeed during the last years turkiye registered a great success with regard to economic restructuring a sound economy ready to be integrated to the world economies has emerged succeeding to the faltering one witnessed in the s just years ago greece used to export double as much as turkiye did now inversely turkiye s overall exports exceed by far that of greece as far as the tourism incomes are concerned we are witnessing the same phenomenon the governments in turkiye have put a particular emphasis on the infrastructure investments rather than investing in world terrorist organizations thereby solving this issue completely indeed in the s it was out of the question to conduct a telephone call from eastern anatolia to the west nowadays this is not the case at all and in a far remote town even in a village you may have at any time a long distance call to any given country however the same could not be applied to greece in fact it is not so easy in athens to have a trunk call to germany round the clock and if you happen to be in the greek islands then your chance will be pretty slim therefore it would not be an exaggeration to argue that turkiye is far ahead of greece in regard to telecommunication facilities greece by virtue of its full membership has enjoyed all advantages of the ec obtaining huge grants and extensive subsidies turkiye having no access at all to similar financial supports has nevertheless managed to create a better economy which enabled it to produce consecutive current accounts surplus over the last two years as such turkiye deserves to be the only country in its region having permanent current accounts surplus serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	th may egypt s ambassador lecturing at warsaw univ original message d sb below please find an electronic copy of a leaflet put up at warsaw u degel hatorah jewish circle for arts and sciences university of warsaw warsaw invites you to the lecture present day sociopolitical issues of the middle east which will be delivered by dr mohamed soliman egypt s ambassador to poland time place p m tuesday th may erev shavuot dept of arabic islamic studies oriental institute polish orientalistyka university of warsaw krakowskie przedmies cie street pl warsaw poland molahs ahetovit n lohk v ma on yehk rad ahehkar d degel hatorah judaistyczne kol o nauk i sztuk przy uniwersytecie warszawskim w warszawie zaprasza na wykl ad pt aktualne zagadnienia spol eczno polityczne bliskiego wschodu kto ry wygl osi dr mohamed soliman ambasador egiptu w polsce czas i miejsce wtorek maja erev shavuot zakl ad arabistyki i islamistyki instytut orientalistyczny uniwersytet warszawski krakowskie przedmies cie pl warszawa ciculation cps c copyright by tikvat tsiyyon plus
talk.politics.mideast	where do the serbs get their ammunition i am trying to follow the current conflict in former yugoslavia one thing i cannot figure out is where do the serbs and croats get their weapons etc don t they run out of them ram
talk.politics.mideast	genuine admission from a genuine homosexual i must finally admit the total truth that is central to the core of my being i am a homosexual not just a normal run of the mill homosexual but a rabid homosexual zionist i hide behind the facade of pro israel rhetoric so as to deflect suspicion of my true motive the exchange of romantic dialogue with nick steel and our frequent fudge packing adventures which we have endeavored to maintain at a discreet level of course the need for discretion has been obviated by my own admission here the truth is that i could no longer hold this saccharine secret any longer i love you nick and my love for you surpasses that which i hold for eretz yisrael may she stand forever as our love has and as your erection insinuating itself into my kosher rectum always will mark
talk.politics.mideast	re chomsky i caught the tail end of a piece on npr national public radio about chomsky apparently there is a new documentary about him and his concepts on the propagandist news media of the west or some such the funny thing is that npr painted chomsky and the documentary in such a positive light or at least ended the report in a positive way the documentary is just now showing in a few cities in the us and will open in more cities in june sorry forgot the title jim eggertj ll mit edu jim eggert
talk.politics.mideast	more on serdars jokes serdar i have been told that you are not real your account is fake which i confirmed by trying to e mail you and advised not to waste my time writing to you but i get pleasure from watching you make a fool of yourself in article zuma uucp sera zuma uucp serdar argic writes in article may cypress com czs bmug org cuzco semikian writes really overstepped the bounds of decency by slandering tens of generations of harmonious peace loving armenians you and your kind you mean tens of generations of barbarians that more people have to die sdpa urartu uucp yes i stated this and stand by it sdpa urartu uucp so you stand by the statement that all armenians are barbarians ok i see lets not even act as if there is a chance they are human see serdar when you judge people because of their race this is called racism i tend to frown on this sort of thing obviously you don t when you label an entire race the way you do it is easy to stop thinking of them as human beings and this can make genocide possible but i guess and this is where serdar will fill the page with quotes taken out of context you know that huh december sydney two nazi armenians massacre sarik ariyak and his bodyguard engin sever jcag and sdpa claim responsibility don t you find it weak that all of serdars enemies are fascist nazi barbarian fill in the blank with any catch all bad term it is public knowledge that hagopian began his notorious career as a member of the terrorist group which perpetrated the massacre of the israeli athletes at the munich olympics in public knowlege i was not aware of that now i see the armenians decide to kill the israeli athletes in as practice i was confused but thanks for clearing that up and the armenian foundation stole from the children of turkiye to fund the criminal activities of the asala sdpa arf terrorists in their cold blooded murder of defenceless turkish and kurdish people wow you are on a roll with the accusations today serdar so how did the armenians steal from the turkish children was it their lunch money this is very cute how you inserted children in this fill in the blank accusation sheet you fill out every day it really touches my heart oh and thank you for letting me know that kurds and armenians hate each other i was not aware of this the only time i have ever talked about kurds it was about the wonderful treatment they were recieving in turkey they must have a high incedence of insanity because there sure are a lot of them fighting against the non oppresive turkish government that has let their culture flower over the past years the armenian foundation provided billion tl to asala milliyet the armenian foundation based in istanbul is found to have provided billion turkish lira million to the armenian terrorist organization asala which have murdered several turkish diplomats abroad thanks for the unbiased turkish media source i am sure the milliyet is rated number one for accuracy and truth the deadliest of terrorist assassins carlos proclaimed on spanish television that his organization had entered into a working relationship with armenian terrorists and they are using drug trafficking to raise money to continue to slaughter innocent people innocent is that what terrorists call their victims i have never heard of terrorists calling their victims innocent yes folks in other news the ira public relations department reported that it had killed innocent victims in a car bombing nope serdar i don t think so as for the armenian genocide of million muslim people between and oops you almost forgot to fill in the say something about turks being killed by armenians here section of your note serdar argic yeah sure you are really serdar argic and i am really bob hope so you may have already won million dollars unfortunately for you the armenian foundation in istambul is sure to steal it from you on the subway and then give it to terrorists to kill innocent kurds and innocent israeli athletes ahhh when are you going to take me to this fantasy world of yours
talk.politics.mideast	turkey is perfect i am moving there well everybody after reading tons of notes by serdar i have come to the following conclusion turkey is perfect and no turk has ever made a mistake he has proved to me at least that the land occupied by turkey today was always lived in peacefully by turks including istanbul aka constantinople they treat their minorities like gods and have only done good while all of their evil neighbors attacked them somehow despite these evil neighbors capable of nothing but murder their population has exploded to almost million in turkey alone note armenian worldwide population is approximately million total i want to go to this heaven on earth and meet the race that has made serdar possible that has persevered and has become a mecca for human rights lovers amnesty international must have bad sources turkey would never torture its citizens treat minorities badly or kidnap foreign journalists last year alone who incidentally are still missing what i am trying to say is i want to be a turk now back to reality i have once again been astounded by serdars ability to ignore all truth all truly difficult questions and go on to his encyclopedia of quotes and sources that can be pasted into any note by the page anybody at all who has believed anything he has said please step forward let him know he hasn t been wasting his time that somebody out there can be convinced by the volume of e mail you can produce not the quality of the content well i am off now i will go dream some more about that perfect place that nirvana that utopia that xanadu that turkey n w h
talk.politics.mideast	re genuine admission from a genuine homosexual in article thpbd sn usenet ins cwru edu aa cleveland freenet edu mark ira kaufman writes i must finally admit the total truth that is central to the core of my being your erection insinuating itself into my kosher rectum always will mark what say you and nick go somewhere else with this shool yard crap tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca
talk.politics.mideast	re coward cosar in article th mg f usenet ins cwru edu aa cleveland freenet edu mark ira kaufman writes for arab armies to attack israel on yom kippur i suppose it is brave to slaughter athletes at the olympics or maybe you dirty cosar pig has been doing just that for a long long time source ahmet cosar said to have been part of terror attack at macdonalds in munich the fuckersville reporter february p le merde the influential anatolia daily based on unidentified sources claimed last week that ahmet cosar the founder and leader of one faction of the big mac funny army for the liberation of flies from the spider webs bmfalfsw was among the argic led terrorists who staged an attack on the toilets at macdonalds fast food restaurant in munich le merde added that up to cosar operated out of tygra michigan com but escaped from the country when bullshit bikers entered the city it was about this time that a statement issued by bmfalfsw claimed that mr cosar was dead of wounds suffered during a mailbombing by bdb becker gts org although it is generally believed that the mysterious leader is alive and well and presently is residing alternately in fuckersville bullshitia and zuma stupidia the paper also noted that the communist government of sexual maniac hasan b mutlu and his f u c k a l l party accepted the zumabot s underground leader with open arms and still providing him with assistance in exchange for pornographic material le merde further adds that bmfalfsw derives only a small portion of its expenditures from wealthy drug lords who support the cause with the rest coming either from other sources or from proceeds of an involvement in child porn trafficking serdar argic we closed our arses tight but it was too late hasan b mutlu
talk.politics.mideast	re heir martillo re just say no to abrahamic religion in article may cirrus com chrism cirrus com chris metcalfe writes in article c fpal eu world std com tti world std com joachim martillo writes to be fair traditional jewish and christian thinking is actually quite similar to islamic thinking on these issues modern civilized westerners should strive for the complete neutralization of all abrahamic relition joachim carlo santos martillo ajami sieg heil heil ajami or do you prefer heil martillo or heil santos or heil carlo or heil joachim this i would suggest against it sounds too informal mein fuhrer manoj
talk.politics.mideast	who does the land belong to was re jews shoot muslim infants lovely arguments but do we write about historical ownership of any place palestine pakistan cyprus aegean islands and the oil that may lie beneath them whatever for any reason other than justification for stomping others does it truly matter whose ancestor lived where or years ago more than how you treat the land and each other who is wise enough to decree that a person s right to life liberty and pursuit of happiness in a particular place depends on accidents of birth who can even be sure about the precise tracks of the sperm that birthed the people we wish to despise imho the american indians have it right we belong to the earth it does not belong to us failure to understand that is a good way to cause lossage all the way around my guess is that once we trash our environment sufficiently we shall die along with it the baby eating and killing its mother then dying for lack of milk death and disease do not respect national boundaries not as toxins disease vectors lost farmland wetlands forest cover water supplies nor any other way when we fight over which national group owns which piece of turf we are merely contending for the best vantage point from which to kill others our land and eventually ourselves that is something of which to be proud very proud makes me glad to be human i m not mindlessly rejecting all nationalism maybe it s fair to ask whether a recent immigrant deserves a share of the infrastructure that all my ancestors hah labored to produce but it s an artificial distinction is the recent immigrant even a refugee less likely to contribute to the next generation s legacy than anyone else in history the reverse is often the case recent immigrants strive hardest if nothing else they fill open eco l n ogic niches then again my tribe is infinitely better than your tribe so i can understand you all have nothing but plot to knock me off while i of course will make sure it doesn t happen even if i must shoot muslim infants or bash jewish ones against the walls of schoolhouses to do so that ll prove my moral superiority by golly as well as the rightness of my cause clearly there is no higher purpose in life than killing others because they are not like you i would never get in the way of such fun let s see soc culture turkish why don t you turks go back to lake baikal where you came from and leave the land to the greeks who stole it fair and square from the scythians soc culture pakistan why don t you guys redistribute yourselves over india as god meant for you to do soc culture jewish soc culture arabic we stick together fight together die together we are brothers and inseparable talk politics mideast oh well had to be there oded planning on being a scythian irredentist as soon as i finish my present assignment p s i can t get a semi decent death threat anymore p p s yeh the native americans had it right we had to kill them off to keep their sedition from spreading
talk.politics.mideast	re netanyahu should be stoned anas omran but since all jews that way they find him a leader to follow anas how much is netanyahu paying you to write this
talk.politics.mideast	re armenians of karabakh deserve independence in article cronos metaphor com covdy shemesh metaphor com ivan covdy wrote in response to article galaxy ucr edu raffi watnxt ucr edu raffi r kojian says ic there are some armenians here in the usa ic in fact there are some areas where armenians are majority ic suppose a large group of people of one of such area decides ic that the us government is not representing their interests and vote for ic seperation from the usa the armenians you refer to have chosen to come to the united states lawfully and peacefully however if armenians invade the united states and force americans to either flee or become armenians it will not succeed similarly the armenians of karabakh are being forced by azerbaijan to either become azeris or leave and it also will not succeed as has been demonstrated karabakh irrespective of its geographic position situated technically within the stalin prepared borders of azerbaijan has been long oppressed and eventually was invaded in by azeri omon and soviet forces resulting in the northern third of this armenian area being depopulated of armenians the armenians have been fighting back ever since clearly you feel it rather ridiculous for armenians of let s say glendale california to engage in an independence movement for a free and independent glendale similarly the azerbaijanis are engaging in a losing attempt at claiming sovereignty over the land and people of karabakh who have lived continuously in karabakh a thousand years before the first central asian invaders ever stepped foot in the caucasus ic should they get it ic and should the un enforce their will ic and is it a simple beautiful concept indeed your analogy has broken down because you have switched positions of the victim and invader a better analogy would be the direct parallel between armenians of karabakh and native americans now if you wish we can discuss the tenets of might versus right and the policies of settler nations david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia has not learned a lesson in s d p a center for regional studies anatolia and has forgotten the p o box punishment inflicted on it cambridge ma late turkish president turgut ozal
talk.politics.misc	re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes in article apr venus tamu edu gmw venus tamu edu mr grinch writes steve you re the one who suggested that a failed government should be an ideal proving ground i never felt that way in the first place quite the contrary i think a better proving ground would be someplace that already had a governemnt that would prevent outright acts of agression yet had a strong spirit of individualism and initiative someplace like texas mr grinch and while texas taxpayers might willingly eliminate tax support for ut and tamu i m not sure they d support gutting the football programs football can pay for itself then there s the impact on ross perot s fortune of eliminating the various state supported programs where he s made his money why he s already made it sure nodoby else will be able to bilk the public in the same specific ways but why should he or i care all in all texas doesn t seem to be a very likely place for libertarianism to take hold more likely than most places when i was there the most important state issue was whether to have a state income tax or instead legalize a popular vice for fund raising and vice won a decisive victory jsh mr grinch p s now that he s safely dead i expect david koresh to become the hero of popular folk ballads and the atf to be generally equated with santa anna
talk.politics.misc	re limiting govt was re employment in article qqikr sd morrow stanford edu xa u forsythe stanford edu writes in article apr pony ingres com garrett ingres com grep a friend writes in article apr eecs nwu edu ian epsilon eecs nwu edu ian writes i couldn t disagree with you more strongly it sounds good but in practice it too often becomes tyranny because there are too often conflicting ideas of what constitutes improving the human condition far better to let people and their organizations pursue whatever goals they think best and let the human condition be improved by those who are willing to do so without coercion there will always be conflicting ideas on what constitutes improving the human condition that s humanity you seem to believe that libertarianism will improve the human condition by lifting all constraints and that people will have a better chance of improving themselves in that environment let me try to put it another way libertarians believe that an unconstrained environment provides the best chance of solving any problem because it maximizes creativity however there is never any guarantee that a really good solution will ever be found to any particular problem utopia is not an option utopia is a myth although we can do a lot better than what we have today but i think that you must pitch libertarianism as a progressive agenda ie you can do better under our style of system i admire a lot of what the libertarians stand for but you guys are some of the worst salesmen i have ever seen and when it comes to politics you need salesmen whether you want them or not what we need are more people who agree with us know something about marketin and are willing to both do that marketing and teach others how to are you in i m flattered by your invitation but i m afraid you have the wrong person although i completely agree with your civil liberties agenda i m not in support of your economic agenda what i do like about the libertarian party is that you guys are so good at shaking up the tired ideas of the past i encourage you guys to continue your crusade but i m afraid i can t ride along ian sutherland ian eecs nwu edu nothing is as inevitable as a mistake whose time has garrett johnson come tussman garrett ingres com june nothing is as inevitable as a mistake whose time has garrett johnson come tussman garrett ingres com the probability of someone watching you is proportional to the stupidity of your action unknown
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage clayton cramer cramer optilink com wrote when you and the rest of the homosexual community pass laws to impose your moral codes on me by requiring me to hire rent to or otherwise associate with a homosexual against my will yes you are in my face until homosexuals stop trying to impose their morals on me i will be in your face about this ahh what s good for the goose is not necessarily what s good for the gander you don t want homosexuals to impose their moral codes such diabolical ideas as equal rights on you yet you are willing to impose your moral codes on them do i detect a double standard garison
talk.politics.misc	the earth also pollutes fury of mother nature man s contribution to environmental pollution are paltry compared to those of nature in her exceptional book trashing the planet former atomic energy commision chairman dr dixie lee ray notes based on the available data all of the air polluting materials produced by man since the beginning of the industrial revolution do not begin to equal the quantities of toxic materials aerosols and particulates spewed into the air from just three volcanoes krakatoa in indonesia in mount katmai in alaska in and hekla in iceland in to which could be added mount st helens in washington state in which pumped out metric tons of carbon dioxide alone el chicon in mexico in which sent more than million tons of sulfur gases into the stratosphere and mount pinatubo in the philippines which in hurled upwards of million tons of material into the stratosphere los ninos many environmentalists attributed the drought in the u s to global warming but researchers with the national center for atmospheric research in boulder colorado reported that the freakish weather was actually due to a natural phenomenon the interaction of el nino and el nina two massive currents in the tropical pacific el nino is a huge strip of warm water that periodically appears off the coast of south america and disrupts the world s weather patterns now and then it alternates with el nina a mass of cold water that comes from the ocean depths along the equator and drifts for thousands of miles chicago tribune s peter gorner summarized the phenomenon cold water along the equator clashed with warmer than normal water southeast of hawaii the result was both the u s drought and the devastating floods that swamped bangladesh nina s cooler water disrupted tropical weather patterns and distorted the path of the jet stream across north america then the jet stream shoved rain producing weather systems away from the interior of the u s resulting in drought termite terror sundry animals and insects also contribute their share to environmental degradation time for april noted that in the netherlands manure from pigs poses a major ecological threat defiling water supplies with excessive nitrites and acidifying local soils sheep have permanently scarred the landscape in spain and portugal while in india bovines cows are ravenous wraiths whose constant quest for food drives them to ravage standing forrests the february issue of science digest reported that an international team of researchers has discovered that termites generate more than twice the carbon dioxide that fuel burning does according to a study reported in science for november the estimated gross amount of carbon dioxide produced by termites was more than twice the net global input from fossil fuel combustion in addition termites are a potentially important source of atmospheric methane they could account for a large fraction of global emmisions the wood eating pests have a bacteria that enables them too digest carbon so efficiently that some pe is converted too carbon dioxide methane and other gases they belch into the atmosphere ants are another natural source of pollution in an atmospheric chemist with bell laboratories and zoologists from cornell university reported that ants of the subfamily formicinae make and store huge quantities of the formic acid that contributes most of the acidity of rain that falls in remote areas and is found in atmosphere gas and precepitation around the globe it is abundant for instance in the fog and mists that hang over the rain forests of central africa according to the july insight magazine the ants release the acid when defending themselves and communicating with each other and upon dying since percent of the world ant population belongs to this subfamily there is significant concern about the acid the ants release an amount estimated at metric tons annually which is equal to the combined formic acid contributions of automobiles refuse combustion and vegetation clearly man has a long way to go to match nature as a despoiler of the environment by robert w lee techie cellar org william a bacon the cellar bbs
talk.politics.misc	some scientists do not believe in the green house effect the following statement was released on february by the science environmental policy project as independent scientists researching atmosphere and climate problems we are concerned by the agenda for unced the united nations conference on environment and development being developed by environmental and activists groups and certain political leaders this so called earth summit is scheduled to convene in brazil in june and aims to impose a system of global envionmental regulations including onerous taxes on energy fuels on the population of the united states and other industrialized nations such policy initiatives derive from highly uncetain scientific theories they are based on the unsupported assumption that catastrophic global warming follows from the burning of fossill fuels and requires immediate action we do not agree a survey of u s atmospheric scientists conducted in the summer of confirms that there is no consesensus about the cause of the slight warming observed during the past century a recently published research paper even suggests sunspot variability which is directly proportional to solar activity rather than a rise in greenhouse gases is responsible for the global temperature increases and decreases recoded since about futhermore the majority of scientific participants in the survey agreed that the theoretical climate climate models used to predict a future warming cannot be relied upon and are not validated by the existing climate record yet all predictions are based on such theoretical models finally agriculturalits generally agree that any increase in carbon dioxide levels from fossil fuels burning has beneficial effects on most crops and on world food supply we are disturbed that activists anxious to stop energy and economic growth are pushing ahead with drastic policies without taking notice of recent changes in the underlying science we fear that the rush to impose global regulations will have catastrophic impacts on the world economy on jobs standards of living and health care with the most severe consequences falling on developing countries and the poor david b aubrey phd senior scintist woods hole oceanographic institute nathaniel b guttman phd research physical scientist national climatic data center hugh b ellsaesser phd meteorologist lawerence livermore national laboratory richard lindzen phd center for meteorology and physical meteorolgy massachusetts institute of technology robert c balling phd director laboratory of climatology arizona state university patrick micheals phd assoc professor of environmental sciences universityy of virginia roger pielke phd professor of atmospheric science colorado state university micheal garstang phd professor of meteorology university of virginia sherwood p idso phd research physicist u s water conservation laboratory lev s gandin phd visiting scientist national center for atmospheric research john a mcginley chief forecast research group forecast systems laboratory noaa h jean thiebaux phd research scientist national meterological center national weather service noaa kenneth v beard phd professor of atmospheric physics university of illinois paul w mielke jr phd professor department of statistics colorado state university thomas lockhart meteorological standards institute peter f giddings meterologist weather service director hazen a bedke meteoroligist former regional director national weather service gabriel t csanady phd eminent professor old dominion university roy leep executive weather director gillet weather data services terrance j clark meteorologist u s air force neil l frank phd meteorologist national weather service bruce a boe phd director north dakota atmospheric resource board andrew detweiler phd assoc professor institute of atmospheric sciences south dakota school of mines and technology robert m cunningham consulting meteorologist fellow american meteorological society stephen r hanna phd sigma research corporation elliot abrams meteoroligist senior vice president accuweather inc william e reifsnyder phd consulting meteorologist professor emeritus forest meteorology yale university david w reylnolds research meteorologist jerry a williams meteorologist president ocean routes inc lee w eddington meteorologist geophysics division pacific missile test center werner a braum phd former dean college of arts sciences florida state university david p rodgers phd assoc professor of research oceanography scripps institution of oceanograghy brian fiedler phd asst professor of meteorology university of oaklahoma edward a brandes meterologist melvyn shapiro chief of meteorological research wave propagation laboratory noaa joesph zabransky jr associate professor of meteorology plymouth state college james a moore project manager research applications program national center for atmospheric research daniel j mcnaughton ensr consultating and engineering brian sussman meteorologist fellow american meteorologist fellow american meteorological society h read mcgrath phd meteorologist robert e zabrecky meteorologist william m porch phd atmospheric physicist los alamos national laboratory earle r williams phd associate profesor of meteorology dept of earth atmospheric and planetary sciences massachusetts institute of technology s fred singer phd atmospheric physsicist university of virginia director science environmental policy project affilitions listed are for identification purposes only techie cellar org william a bacon the cellar bbs
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes so what homosexuals lie about the number to hide the disproportionate involvement of homosexuals in child molestation they also lie about to keep politicians scared back your statments with proof or shut up it will be interesting to see the reaction when million queers gather in washington dc after all if there are only million of us then this is an event unprecidented in history but many of the people who will be marching aren t homosexuals but other members of the leftist agenda again back your statements or shut up the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners the median number of sexual partners for all men was don t forget that had or more partners not surprising remember that study includes homosexuals as well hmm tell me did you go to the mickey mouse school of logic you have just stated that there are not many homosexuals as kinsey reported in his survey and the surveys of the kinsey institute since then you say that the reason many young people are promiscuous is because homosexuals form a large part of that group or there are some homosexuals whose lives consist of having sex with no gaps for eating c using your logic it would seem to suggest that on average gay men have about partners each a week try to think through your arguments carefully or then again not because i like to laugh every now and then compared to the table i have already posted from masters johnson and kolodny showing male homosexual partners it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population and what did this study show for number of sexual contacts for those who said they where homosexual or is that number to inconvient for you it wasn t published hence the argument cannot be resolved using this data next point please it s a shame that we don t have a breakdown for straight men vs gay bi men that would show even more dramatically how much more promiscuous gay bi men are fuck off typical homoseuxal response this depends on the premise that there are only three types of behaviour gay bi and hetero this has yet to be proved see an earlier post about the kinsey institute of grading this although rough seems more logical also you use this would show defining a fact and not an assumption again back your statements or shut up clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all adda wainwright does dim atal y llanw o eczcaw mips nott ac uk o mae sig ma ar werth
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes yes you are when you and the rest of the homosexual community pass laws to impose your moral codes on me by requiring me to hire rent to or otherwise associate with a homosexual against my will yes you are in my face until homosexuals stop trying to impose their morals on me i will be in your face about this your post is based on the premise that the laws as they stand do not discriminate anybody so your argument falls over immediately are you really that dumb as to use emotive language to prove an argument please feel free to answer that is if you have anything intelligent to say on the matter clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all adda wainwright does dim atal y llanw o eczcaw mips nott ac uk o mae sig ma ar werth
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes you might except that gay men are much more promiscuous than straight men which shows how damaged and screwed up gay men are excuse me a moment when i laugh my head off i defy you to prove your statement damaged and screwed up you can t oh dear your argument once again mr logic not falls flat on its face take a course in civil behaviour and logic then come back and defend your arguments clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all adda wainwright does dim atal y llanw o eczcaw mips nott ac uk o mae sig ma ar werth
talk.politics.misc	re waco survivors april in article c segz mwr dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes in article apm apr hpopdlau pwd hp com apm hpopdlau pwd hp com andrew merritt writes path dscomsa dxcern mcsun uknet pipex uunet think com sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com apm from apm hpopdlau pwd hp com andrew merritt in article apr vms ocom okstate edu chorley vms ocom okstate edu writes i note with insufficient emotion that amongst the five survivors of the waco debacle there were two brits and an aussie the anglo saxon persona really doesn t lend itself to martyrdom for a spurious messiah i don t see how you draw that conclusion around of the inside the buildings were british one quarter two out of the eight latest count i heard survivors were british one quarter anyhow british doesn t equate to anglo saxon what exactly are you trying to say and why were there no fire engines within a mile of the compound because the gun loonies were firing on vehicles with mm amunition that has a range of meters what crap phil mm wrong to give you a clue as to how big mm is the f fighter aircraft have mm gattling guns used to shoot down other aircraft a mm gun would be somewhere in the cannon realm they might have had calibre but definitely not mm paul r busta busta kozmic enet dec com salem n h those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes if you don t care why was so much effort put into promoting the lie because it was important to scare politicians into obedience perhaps you should change your name to clayton mr logic not cramer please give evidence of the above statement or shut up i believe that i may have answered that elsewhere amongst your other ravings clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all adda wainwright does dim atal y llanw o eczcaw mips nott ac uk o mae sig ma ar werth
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article c navn f p murdoch acc virginia edu gsh w fermi clas virginia edu greg hennessy writes in article philc n d mk netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes tells you something about the fascist politics being practiced ah ending discrimination is now fascism greg hennessy university of virginia when you force people to associate with others against their will yes good grief i do believe that for once you may have an argument which may be discussed intelligently i guess that you are a person who dislikes contact with people of ethnic minority however your argument again falls flat on its face you state that you under an anti discrimination bill would be forced to associate with others homosexuals i assume against your will how do you know that you do not associate with them now except they may be closeted would you like to change your argument to read forced to associate with truthfully homosexual people against my will you have no proof that anyone you now know may not be homosexual and this punches a large hole in your argument is it your belief that a homosexual comes in only one flavour sic and that is the camp mincing type prove it you cannot i must admit though that it looks as if you actually thought about your response this time instead of just raving clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all adda wainwright does dim atal y llanw o eczcaw mips nott ac uk o mae sig ma ar werth
talk.politics.misc	re why not concentrate on child molesters in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes i reckon any man would go wildly promiscuous if presented with a huge variety of willing partners the question here is not of being that i suppose says a lot about how screwed up you are hey clayton it s me again i just love your arguments they completely clinch each and every one of your points but then again that i suppose says a lot about how screwed up your are hehe i haven t had so much fun since i started blasting christians in alt atheism clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine xavier clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all adda wainwright does dim atal y llanw o eczcaw mips nott ac uk o mae sig ma ar werth
talk.politics.misc	re using california s antidiscrimination the sort of case i predicted in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes the walz monster above however was past when he molested these kids as he says above hehehe dontcha just love these carefully constructed arguements clayton babe please define the word molest are you using a legal term or a proper dictionary term molest as far as i can remember means to do damage to person s my mate mike was lured into a woman s parlour when he was is that molestation a number of my friends straight lost their virginity before that were they molested they told me that they thoroughly enjoyed the experience i see no damage please stop pushing your objective morality on others if you push people won t fall over and say ye gads you re right they ll just push back have you signed up for that logic course yet clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all adda wainwright does dim atal y llanw o eczcaw mips nott ac uk o mae sig ma ar werth
talk.politics.misc	re welcome to police state usa in article apr cc usu edu slp k cc usu edu writes xref dscomsa alt activism talk politics misc path dscomsa dxcern mcsun uunet gatech howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov hellgate utah edu cc usu edu slp k from slp k cc usu edu newsgroups alt activism talk politics misc subject re welcome to police state usa message id apr cc usu edu date apr mdt references apr cc usu edu c rusq m m news cso uiuc edu organization utah state university lines in article c rusq m m news cso uiuc edu azoghlin uxa cso uiuc edu very old freshman vof writes critisism is too easy what solutions do people have that would have been better than what the fbi had been doing for the last few months firstly they could have backed off when you put a power freak like david koresh in that kind of situation he is going to explode no pun intended koresh wanted to be a martyr and the government played right into his hands if the government hadn t given him the attention he wanted nothing would have ever happened secondly the davidians were expecting everything the government did they thought that they were facing the apocalypse and that they were to perish in fire they weren t scared of the fbi they are not the average hoods they are very devout followers of a religion psyops didn t work and the government got frustrated so they murdered them the batf should have left at the beginning they should have looked at koresh s personality instead they thought they have guns we have bigger guns let s go get em they botched it from day one they shouldn t have been there in the first place the above conveniently ignores the murder of four batf agents by the branch davidians in an unprovoked ambush any government that allows tinpot dictators to set up shop and declare a private state has drifted into anarchy there are laws to control the ownership of guns and the batf had good reason to beleive that they were being violated they set out to obtain a legal warrant and attempted to serve it only to be met with gunfire when they rang the doorbell the paranoid assertion that the batf fired first in an unprovoked assault assumes that the batf were on a death wish had they expected the b d to be anything other than peacefull citizens who would accept a search authorized by a court they would have turned up in a tank and broken the door down on day one the stupidity was the attempt to serve a warant on the place by ludicrously underarmed and unprotected police if anyone on the net cares to suggest a sure fire method of bringing the murderes of four police officers to justice perhaps we could hear it phill hallam baker
talk.politics.misc	re bill targets pension funds for liberation in article fox apr graphics nyu edu fox graphics cs nyu edu david fox writes no one has time to chase down every rumor that gets printed in the national enquirer or whatever the point is to wait and see if the assertions of the rather bizarre original post will be corroborated in any way perhaps they will the recent posts of the rather bizarre original poster speak for themselves this story was in the la times a few months ago the clinton administration is exploring every avenue of revenue enhancement but not all will be chosen there was a funny cartoon in sunday s ny times bill clinton s calendar every day was april
talk.politics.misc	re rnitedace and violence a person sees the front of their home is strewn with garbage that person removes the trash and sweeps the sidewalk his next door neigh bors have not the person then approaches his two neighbors and talks to them about cleaning the front of their homes and why it would be good for their own living conditions and that of the neighborhood there s nothing wrong with holding your neighbors accountable for their actions that is the basis for a viable safe community regards neal
talk.politics.misc	re clinton s wiretapping initiative in article qn innot news aero org helfman aero org robert s helfman writes in article aa inet gw pa dec com blh uiboise idbsu edu broward l horne writes if you look through this newsgroup you should be able to find clinton s proposed wiretapping initiative for our computer networks and telephone systems this initiative has been up before congress for at least the past months in the guise of the fbi wiretapping bill what kind of brainless clod posted the above garbage would they be so kind as to explain how this is clinton s initiative when it has been before congress for at least the past months it is clinton s initiative now he is pushing it hard aren t the liberals supposed to be concerned about privacy rights if you want to know more about the wiretapping initiative read it s in there installed in every bedroom disclaimer opinions expressed are mine not my employer s
talk.politics.misc	no facts just yapping re new study out on gay percentage in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes homosexuals lie about the number to hide the disproportionate involvement of homosexuals in child molestation they also lie about to keep politicians scared out and out lie not substantiated i do not understand statments like these please stop making such ridiculous claims maybe you should consider working for or getting your information from the national inquirer for now on but many of the people who will be marching aren t homosexuals but other members of the leftist agenda ahh rabbit from a hat here is another desperate step to discount any activity of the washington gay march the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners the median number of sexual partners for all men was don t forget that had or more partners not surprising remember that study includes homosexuals as well yes mr cramer and supposibly they are only of the entire population plus you stated that the figure is a median
talk.politics.misc	could it be backwards re new study out on gay percentage in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes what was the purpose of this post if it was to show a mindless obsession with statistics an incredibly flawed system of reasoning and a repellent hatemonger agenda then the purpose was accomplished with panache a get a clue b get a life c get out of my face i m not in yours bi andrew d simchik schnopia yes you are when you and the rest of the homosexual community pass laws to impose your moral codes on me by requiring me to hire rent to or otherwise associate with a homosexual against my will yes you are in my face until homosexuals stop trying to impose their morals on me i will be in your face about this but aren t you imposing your moral standards against gay people because you do not want to rent to or hire or as you put associate with and i do not know of a law that requires you to associate with gay people it works both ways all people want to have an equal opportunity for all things that lie in the public domain it will be a gigantic step forward when people take other people based upon ability and talent rather than skin color eye color height weight sexual orientation and i use this last one as meaning gay bi straight let s not go off on the tangent about pedophiles rapist etc
talk.politics.misc	more verbal garbage this way re new study out on gay percentage in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article apr news cs brandeis edu st pip cc brandeis edu blort eeeep hwaaah writes wouldn t one expect more heterosexual men than gay men to be promiscuous simply due to a larger group of potential partners just a thought matt you might except that gay men are much more promiscuous than straight men which shows how damaged and screwed up gay men are this is getting sad all you can do is make this ridiculous statements based upon some old information and a press democrat article that was poorly written please show the numbers for your use of much more i have not seen them and i want them to be true and accurate or at least show a trend within the everyday gay population there are all kinds of damaged and screwed up people and most of them are not gay keep it up you just shoot your own position down over and over
talk.politics.misc	re welcome to police state usa in article c rusq m m news cso uiuc edu azoghlin uxa cso uiuc edu very old freshman vof writes critisism is too easy what solutions do people have that would have been better than what the fbi had been doing for the last few months well they never should have gotten into this situation look at the history of this group david koresh has been arrested twice by local police both times he accepted the arrest warrant and went peacefully so the feds decide to arrest him how do they choose to arrest a person with a record of peaceful obedience under arrest they throw a concussion grenades at his building in addition we know that we ve been lied to initially we were told that they suspected him of molesting children and having several wives but these are not atf offenses were they so they changed their story several times and the original warrant is still sealed and we were told about the rockets and ammunition they had but did anyone notice any ammo exploding in the fire they claimed that koresh hadn t left the compound in months but people in town report seeing him just a week before the raid how would i have handled it differently well first i haven t seen any evidence that the bds did anything wrong there s a sealed warrant and a collection of stories which keep changing about what they did so i might not have done anything ok now supposing that i know what the bds are being arrested for well they ve got a history of accepting arrests so i send officers to the door with a warrant wearing bulletproof vests covered from a distance by sharpshooters now there s no good reason to suspect that these people will do anything right why didn t anyone try serving a warrant ok going further they refuse the warrant it becomes necessary to raid you plan a raid you hear an hour before that there was a leak and they know your coming so what do you do well change your plans right nope they go ahead with it anyone including sending in unprotected men to break into the place it was idiotic i don t know what i would have ended up doing but that original raid should never have happened the shit that came later should never have happened the full record of the raid should be released to the public to let us know what the hell really happened there the lies should never have been told mc mark craig carroll mc we the people are getting tired of your lies univ of delaware dept of cis we the people now believe that it s time grad student labstaff hacker we re demanding our rights to the answers carroll udel edu we elect a precedent to state of mind fish
talk.politics.misc	stop forcing me re new study out on gay percentage in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article c navn f p murdoch acc virginia edu gsh w fermi clas virginia edu greg hennessy writes ah ending discrimination is now fascism greg hennessy university of virginia when you force people to associate with others against their will yes you are forced everyday to associate with people that you do not wish to and there isn t even a law that makes you do it but you do becuase you want to go shopping or go to work or go to a public park or go to a baseball game etc the process of ending discrimination is based upon the rational concept that all men women people are created equal have the same equal standing and chances in society
talk.politics.misc	re welcome to police state usa in article c si g hx dscomsa desy de hallam zeus desy de writes the above conveniently ignores the murder of four batf agents by the branch davidians in an unprovoked ambush any government that allows tinpot dictators to set up shop and declare a private state has drifted into anarchy there are laws to control the ownership of guns and the batf had good reason to beleive that they were being violated they set out to obtain a legal warrant and attempted to serve it only to be met with gunfire when they rang the doorbell the paranoid assertion that the batf fired first in an unprovoked assault assumes that the batf were on a death wish had they expected the b d to be anything other than peacefull citizens who would accept a search authorized by a court they would have turned up in a tank and broken the door down on day one the stupidity was the attempt to serve a warant on the place by ludicrously underarmed and unprotected police wait a second you re ignoring major facts here there was no attempt to simply serve a warrant the batf had a no knock warrant the initial firefight began when the batf threw concussion grenades at the building batf admits this if anyone on the net cares to suggest a sure fire method of bringing the murderes of four police officers to justice perhaps we could hear it let s be realistic here shall we you re a member of a rather paranoid religious organization someone comes to your building dressed in black suits carrying firearms they throw a concussion grenade at the place and try to break in what exactly are you going to do i would not allow anyone to enter my home without first identifying themselves if someone attacks my home by firing weapons or throwing explosive i think i d be entirely justified in defending myself regardless of what i think of the bds and regardless of whether or not they were guilty of firearms violations this is not the way you treat people in a supposedly free society mc mark craig carroll mc we the people are getting tired of your lies univ of delaware dept of cis we the people now believe that it s time grad student labstaff hacker we re demanding our rights to the answers carroll udel edu we elect a precedent to state of mind fish
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage clayton cramer wrote lawrence c foard writes the median number of sexual partners for all men was don t forget that had or more partners not surprising remember that study includes homosexuals as well implying no so tacitly that homosexual men are more promiscuous than heterosexual men interesting especially in the wake of a news report last week about a group of high school seniors heterosexual i might add who boasted monthly conquests of up to girls each it seems that promiscuity is not limited to homosexuals this is a sad fact of life no matter what you look for whether it be homosexual promiscuity racial discrimination or sexual harassment you will find it whether or not it actually exists where you re looking garison
talk.politics.misc	re median re new study out on gay percentage stephen orchid ucsc edu wrote the median of a distribution is that variate value which divides the distribution halfway i e of the distribution population have lower and half have higher variate values so for males the median this means that half of these men are higher than this and half are lower than this now if the population sample size is and of them are gay males are gay if we say they are distributed equally then only are greater than sexual partners of course this means that heterosexual men are greater than not quite first the median does not imply that half of the men are above and half below it simply means that is the mid point between the maximum number of partners and the minimum which is most likely zero however assuming your implication to be more or less correct your final result is still invalid if of all males have had more than partners and you deduct the assumed of homosexual males what remains is not but still of all heterosexual males which is to say hey we re all human garison
talk.politics.misc	re kyle k on rodney king in article apr midway uchicago edu thf midway uchicago edu writes in article c peay m news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu koppenhoefer kyle cramm writes thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes in article c lp y fdk news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu koppenhoef er kyle cramm writes how about the fact that you have a bunch of cops putting their lives on the line day in and day out who are afraid as hell of a large black guy tha t took a large amount of punishment and refused submit i m curious why you think that particular adjective is important black is a descriptive adjective that describes mr king from many of the newspaper radio and tv news reports i have seen this adjective is commonly in front of his name i have never seen anyone complain about the use of this adjective when used in a benign manner i did not say that mr king was a no good black i do not know mr king and would not make this ascertian without some evidence to this effect i used it purely as a descriptive adjective in the same manner than many most news people have used it in the past no one is questioning whether mr king is black the question arises whether king s race should make police officers afraid as hell your statement seems to imply that cops should have a different standard for large black guys than for just large guys in general the original poster never said they were afraid of king because he was black in fact the officers were afraid of king because of what he did not because of the color of his skin it is you mr frank that read the phrase large black man and cried racism in a typical knee jerk fashion when you and others i suspect can get past this problem maybe the real problems in this issue can be discussed that two posts later you don t understand why anyone pointed out your use of the adjective is almost as informative as your original use ted frank thf kimbark uchicago edu i m sorry the card says moops the u of c law school standard disclaimers jsl
talk.politics.misc	re kyle k on rodney king in article apr nntpserver chevron com jviv usmi midland chevron com john viveiros writes in article c peay m news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu koppenhoefer kyle cramm writes the entire second trial was about race ted i don t feel compelled to discuss mr king s racial background but had mr king been white there would not have been a second trial you probably are saying that the beating would not have occurred if he were white but that is an extremely difficult call to make it is possible the case but not definately one could easily point out that the jury decided that this extremely difficult call could be made which is why the two of the defendants were found guilty one could also make some interesting observations on our system of justice where the men were not guilty of excessive force but guilty enough to have violated his civil rights by use of the non existant excessive force it is also interesting to note that powell and maybe koons were found guilty of aiding and abetting the deprival of king s civil rights but two others who also beat king and all the others who watched were not go figure can you say sacraficial lambs can you say appeal john viveiros jviv chevron com chevron usa standard disclaimer applies midland tx jsl
talk.politics.misc	study after study re are americans sexually repressed in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article apr a cs okstate edu kennejs a cs okstate edu kennedy james scot writes so what can we deduce from these figures are there a lot less male homosexuals than there used to be or are men perhaps women too not as honest as they used to be about there sexuality presumably the people that were polled in you mean in the s men and women were much more open about their homosexuality than today want to try that one again that probably is not true but today it may not be much better for the gay population in general you mean ignore study after study so that we can continue to accept a study kinsey s that is obviously wrong where are all of these studies you have cited a few and my research shows that there are not that many do not confuse a survey as a study there is a big difference asking people outside of a polling booth and adding up numbers is not a study as easily of been gay i suppose one of the big debates about homosexuality is whether or not it s a type of behavior that is learned or if one is just born that way imho the more likely explanation is that it s some combination of the two based on what besides your own warm fuzzy feelings but this is what you base most of your conclusion upon warm fuzzy feelings maybe he has stated an educated opinion based upon the studies that involve genetics and psychological influence there are a lot of those types of studies aren t there try reading some here s something to ponder upon have any of you gay bashers out there ever considered that homosexuals probably deem their sexual orientation as being a state of affairs that is just as much an intrinsic and natural part of their life as heterosexuals do about their own sexuality in other words someone who is truly alcoholics share that feeling until they hit bottom this is a crap statement and comparison many people use this sad and stupid argument there is not relationship between alcoholics and people s sexual orientation except that some may find what it really is when they are drunk repressed inhibition released unless of course the problem is that homosexuality is a form of mental disorder caused by childhood sexual abuse as a number of recent works suggest nonsense this simply is not true i suppose it is a waste of time to try and tell you to understand what a study presents most of what you cite does not extrapolate anything you do if homosexuals would stop using the government to impose their morality on others antidiscrimination laws and leave our children if people in general would stop using irrational position to oppress other s and leave our private lives to ourselves i would have no support for laws and rules to protect people form this but we need only look at post such as yours to see that they lack rational thought and intelligent outlooks alone i wouldn t care in the least what they did in private but until they get over the liberal notion that the proper role of government is to tell peaceful people how to live i have no choice but to continue to point out that homosexuality is not an alternative lifestyle but a sickness remember that peaceful people are not necessarily doing the right thing peaceful tolerant enlightened educated rational thinking people that is what we need
talk.politics.misc	re nc vs hunt marine gay bashing in wilmington nc verdict in article apr bsu ucs cmmiller leo bsuvc bsu edu writes how about the fact that you have a bunch of cops putting their lives on the line day in and day out who are afraid as hell of a large black guy that took a large amount of punishment and refused submit oh yeah did you watc h the start of the video when king got up out of his prone postion and charge the cops sorry the video cuts both was when you sit and watch it start to finish sorry i didn t see him charge the cops i saw him trying to get away from people who were beating him i guess we each see what we want to see candace miller i guess your view of the video from your sofa gives you a better view than the cops involved i guess one can see what one wants to see after all jsl
talk.politics.misc	re stop the sexularhumanistoppression former my beloved damn ferigner marc steinkoenig f n z fidonet org marc steinkoenig writes quoting drieux just drieux to all dated my point if it alluded you is that as long as the usa remains in the state of rebellion against god s divinely appointed vicar over these colonies what more can you expect from paganidolators alienated from god s wonderful plan obgeopoliticalcontext i was pleased that the restoration of the bourbon de bourbon s to what tree did you just climb down from the church is an opressive farce which destroys cultures i m not knocking religious morality but i think that americans take their religion too seriously to the point of trying to convert anyone or anything to their particular sect it s a question of power and not salvation all monotheistic religions breed intoleraance into their flock islam judaism and christianity religion is not the opiate of the masses fanaticism is and brother it lookes like you re pretty hopped up on your own self rightousness never heard of arguement by absurdity eh no also called sarcasm the usual procedure is to accept some part of the oppositions arguement and run with it until one goes beyond rational thought and then ring the changes z b the idea of a minimum wage is considered a good one and in these times of economic difficulty the washington legislature is propossing to raise the state minwage from the federal level to fifteen cents over oregon s it would seem to me that this increase does not keep pace with inflation that the minimum wage should be to by my figures so it is proposed that we raise the minimum wage to per hour by july and then give a cost of living increase every july and anyone who doesn t like it is obviously a country club republican getting rich off the exploitation of poor people chus pyotr pyotr halcyon com sometimes pyotr filipivich sometimes owl optimist bagpiper with a beeper
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes don t forget that had or more partners not surprising remember that study includes homosexuals as well err earth to clayton you posted this to show that were homosexual so if we assume every homosexual was promiscious that leads us to conclude that percent of heterosexuals are promiscious and that first assumtion is a bad one clayton it is suprising from the claims you are making greg hennessy university of virginia usps mail astronomy department charlottesville va usa internet gsh w virginia edu uucp uunet virginia gsh w
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage ah ending discrimination is now fascism clayton cramer writes when you force people to associate with others against their will yes earth to clayton the topic under discussion was the us military an all volunteer force i realize you can t stop your knee jerking but at least use half a clue greg hennessy university of virginia usps mail astronomy department charlottesville va usa internet gsh w virginia edu uucp uunet virginia gsh w
talk.politics.misc	re why not concentrate on child molesters in article optilink com walsh optilink com mark walsh writes really i thought that insurance companies hired all of their actuarial staffs to determine the risks correlated with all groups of people and that gays are more likely to have aids than are those of other sexual orientations correlation causality the risk factor is having non monogomous unprotected sex not being homosexual greg hennessy university of virginia usps mail astronomy department charlottesville va usa internet gsh w virginia edu uucp uunet virginia gsh w
talk.politics.misc	re the continuing decay much blathering on the role of military forces in enforcing civil law deleted the main problem with trying to get the military involved in police work is the differences in the missions the police take names try and find out what happened stop suspects thats the meaning of arrest and turn them over to the custody of the judicial branch for the adjudication of their case the military s mission is to kill the enemy before they can escape or surrender chus pyotr pyotr halcyon com sometimes pyotr filipivich sometimes owl optimist bagpiper with a beeper
talk.politics.misc	re waco burnout in article c qyug luf noose ecn purdue edu garrod dynamo ecn purdue edu david garrod writes in article apr hemlock cray com rja mahogany cray com russ anderson writes looks like the branch davidian is out of buisness this morning the police fbi batf started ramming holes in the walls of buildings and shooting in tear gas shortly there after a fire began that has now engulfed all the buildings in the compound only one brach davidian member has come out authorities are saying that branch davidian members were seen starting the fire it looks like there will no witnesses to dispute that claim there were adults an children in the compound funny how the fire seemed to start on the right hand side of the building just next to where a tank was backing away though probably just a coincidence watch the videotape carefully the cnn coverage was fairly decisive the first fire starts in the tower this is three storeys high and there is a flag to the right of it on the picture the second fire starts in another tower which is similar to the first only two storeys high the flag is on the left in the camera picture that shows this fire starting thus the camera pictures cleraly show the fire starting at two separate locations the fbi report a third i was not able to verify it from the videotape however someone else identified a fire shown to be starting behind the small tower in the second flag on left camera angle the flames coming out of the building are yellow orange this is the normal colour for carbon compounds burning the flames were those of a solid or confined liquid burning not of a gas exploding the explosion that occurs mid way along the building is certainly not an explosive though the cloud itself is on fire this would seem to be most likely to be some sort of fuel oil store exploding rather than the explosion of a magazine funny how considering there was to be a great cache of explosives ammunition etc in the compound i did not see any series of explosions depends entirely on how they were distributed you would not be able to identify ammunition rounds going off from video camera coverage from a mile away if and when the fbi release pictures from cmeras on the armoured vehicles which presumably exist it might be possible to get a clearer picture if anyone expects to see explosions hollywood style aka rambo movies then remember that in real life cars do not burst into flames when going over cliffs just about the most you could expect would be to see the grenades going off since the building was designed to be blast proof to some extent it would be difficult to distinguish the grenades going off from the collapse of the building due to the fire and oops the automatic weapons were probably burnt up in the fire with the other witnesses paranoia unless i see videotapes showing the davidians starting the fire i guess i may have a problem believing the feds saying they saw them doing it but couldn t or didn t manage to tape it they have been taping everything else you wouldn t beleive the fbi if they showed you a picture of koresh himself setting light to the place your mindset is such that you are simply unable to accept as true anything that might suggest that a group of heavily armed weapons fanatics might indeed be in the wrong the gun lobby can t accept that the b d set light to the place because that would mean that koreh had murdered children that would mean that their taking his account of the murder of batf agents would be even less credible than it was to start with koresh had days to come out with his hands up and face a fair trial instead he ordered the murder of everyone in the place phill hallam baker
talk.politics.misc	re waco survivors april in article c segz mwr dscomsa desy de hallam zeus desy de writes the people who do not want gun control must obviously discount the entire government story this is simply rationalisation it is not enough for them to simply dismiss the government as incompetent that would require them to come up with a solution themselves instead they have to come up with a government conspiracy theory whereby the government decided to set out to murder people just to set up some sort of scare to alow them to get gun control legislation through what s despicable is that this sordid incident is being glommed onto by all sorts of people desperately trying to get a revolution it makes ambulance chasing by lawyers seem like a harmless pastime for the last few months benighted souls have been calling c span on issues as mundane as budget resolutions saying that i don t know i just have the feeling there is going to be a revolution in this country and so on get real for a real case study in revolution go to blockbuster video and check out underground a film made about the weather underground in the s even with all the strife back then the revolution never did come and waco is supposed to be the spark of the end times in the tape it is interesting to see the way the weatherpersons dance around the issue of one of their defining moments which was when a few of their comrades managed to blow themselves up manufacturing bombs in a greenwich village townhouse the problem one of them said was that they were so caught up in their armed struggle that they forgot about their own personal safety and weren t careful but of course that was society s fault a society that didn t instill a sense of worth in the people so they neglect their own safety current apologists for koresh may pick up some important rationalization tips from this tape joe knapp jmk cbvox att com
talk.politics.misc	re welcome to police state usa in article c si g hx dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes in article apr cc usu edu slp k cc usu edu writes xref dscomsa alt activism talk politics misc path dscomsa dxcern mcsun uunet gatech howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov hellgate utah edu cc usu edu slp k from slp k cc usu edu newsgroups alt activism talk politics misc subject re welcome to police state usa message id apr cc usu edu date apr mdt references apr cc usu edu c rusq m m news cso uiuc edu organization utah state university lines in article c rusq m m news cso uiuc edu azoghlin uxa cso uiuc edu very old freshman vof writes critisism is too easy what solutions do people have that would have been better than what the fbi had been doing for the last few months firstly they could have backed off when you put a power freak like david koresh in that kind of situation he is going to explode no pun intended koresh wanted to be a martyr and the government played right into his hands if the government hadn t given him the attention he wanted nothing would have ever happened secondly the davidians were expecting everything the government did they thought that they were facing the apocalypse and that they were to perish in fire they weren t scared of the fbi they are not the average hoods they are very devout followers of a religion psyops didn t work and the government got frustrated so they murdered them the batf should have left at the beginning they should have looked at koresh s personality instead they thought they have guns we have bigger guns let s go get em they botched it from day one they shouldn t have been there in the first place the above conveniently ignores the murder of four batf agents by the branch davidians in an unprovoked ambush the above statement ignores reality the bd were provoked any government that allows tinpot dictators to set up shop and declare a private state has drifted into anarchy there are laws to control the ownership of guns and the batf had good reason to beleive that they were being violated they set out to obtain a legal warrant and attempted to serve it only to be met with gunfire when they rang the doorbell damn phil you must have seen a different tape of the initial raid than i did your doorbell happened to include lobbing percussion grenades and attempting to storm the compound through the windows i can honestly say i have never seen a doorbell that works like that the paranoid assertion that the batf fired first in an unprovoked assault assumes that the batf were on a death wish had they expected the b d to be anything other than peacefull citizens who would accept a search authorized by a court they would have turned up in a tank and broken the door down on day one think man the batf are serving a warrant on someone who they feel might have illegal automatic weapons if they expected as you state that the b d to be anything other than peaceful citizens they could have sent one maybe two agents up to the front door knock and attempt to serve the warrant on the person answering the door scenario one that person lets them in to perform the search and no one gets hurt scenario two the person answering the door pulls a weapon aand kills both officers now you have two dead batf agents instead of four the batf knows exactly where they stand with regards to the bd and began to formulate a plan of action to arrest those responsible without harm to the innocent people children within the compound the stupidity was the attempt to serve a warant on the place by ludicrously underarmed and unprotected police no the stupidity was the attempt to serve the warrant swat style if anyone on the net cares to suggest a sure fire method of bringing the murderes of four police officers to justice perhaps we could hear it sure do it within the law the batf is there to uphold the law not circumvent it to fit their needs phill hallam baker paul r busta busta vicki enet dec com salem n h one only sees what one observes and one observes only those things which are already in the mind
talk.politics.misc	re welcome to police state usa in article c rusq m m news cso uiuc edu azoghlin uxa cso uiuc edu very old freshman vof writes critisism is too easy what solutions do people have that would have been better than what the fbi had been doing for the last few months for starters they could have gone on waiting and negotiating the davidians weren t going anywhere and their supplies had to be limited large perhaps but limited if they had simply fired the compound by themselves without gov t tanks smashing down their walls then at least the gov t would not be guilty of having again used an inappropriate level of force and would have been able to use the meantime to continue to pressure and negotiate no they would not have looked good on the news in six months or a year but they sure as hell don t look very good now larry smith smith ctron com no i don t speak for cabletron need you ask liberty is not the freedom to do whatever we want it is the freedom to do whatever we are able
talk.politics.misc	re welcome to police state usa in article c si g hx dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes the above conveniently ignores the murder of four batf agents by the branch davidians in an unprovoked ambush that has not been demonstrated had he come to trial there was a very real possibility that koresh would have gotten an acquittal on grounds of self defense all survivors of the debacle have sworn that the batf shot first any government that allows tinpot dictators to set up shop and declare a private state has drifted into anarchy there are laws to control the ownership of guns and the batf had good reason to beleive that they were being violated they set out to obtain a legal warrant and attempted to serve it only to be met with gunfire when they rang the doorbell they rang the doorbell using a concussion grenade and if the bloody warrants were legal then why were they sealed after the fight started and if koresh had declared himself a private state and was just daring the gov t to go in then why did he surrender last year to a local sheriff who served a warrant for his arrest as opposed to the batf search warrant which did not include arrest unless violations were found by just calling him up to tell him and then going out to collect him with his squad car that doesn t sound like a dictator to me it sounds like someone who knows he has a court battle things might have gone very differently if the batf had rung the doorbell the paranoid assertion that the batf fired first in an unprovoked assault assumes that the batf were on a death wish had they expected the b d to be anything other than peacefull citizens who would accept a search authorized by a court they would have turned up in a tank and broken the door down on day one this is stupid that is no paranoid assertion it is testamony from surviving witnesses and the batf has no tanks nor am i aware of either the batf or the fbi using any until yesterday when they use maximum force they do just what they did that first day that got four officers killed the stupidity was the attempt to serve a warant on the place by ludicrously underarmed and unprotected police underarmed you flabberghast me they were loaded for bear and every picture shows them wearing bullet proof vests they were using concussion grenades and full auto weapons what was missing low yield tac nukes this is a transparent attempt to retcon a justification for the ridiculous amount of force used both initially and yesterday you should be ashamed if anyone on the net cares to suggest a sure fire method of bringing the murderes of four police officers to justice perhaps we could hear it they had a sure fire method keep them bottled up and talk them to death or surrender without giving him justification for some looney tune religious stunt phil i ve been reading your postings for months and i m convinced that you will back anything no matter how damaging it may be to yours or anyone else s rights if you think it will hurt people you don t like it s people with that attitude that set up the preconditions for the holocaust a process that is in place now in this country even if the tattered pitiful remains of the constitution is slowing its progress this isn t a libertarian issue others may argue that line but from a strictly constitutional view of a democratic gov t what the fbi and batf did was wrong wrong wrong even if their reasons for trying to arrest koresh were right anything that leads to the deaths of children if nothing else touches your stoney heart is wrong no matter who pushed the button for god s sake man get your morality back larry smith smith ctron com no i don t speak for cabletron need you ask liberty is not the freedom to do whatever we want it is the freedom to do whatever we are able
talk.politics.misc	re are americans sexually repressed cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes unless of course the problem is that homosexuality is a form of mental disorder caused by childhood sexual abuse as a number of recent works suggest which number is that zero please present a number of authoritative works which suggest that homosexuality is a form of mental disorder caused by childhood sexual abuse don t present your own biased conclusions based on a collage of tidbits you ve extracted from a few hours research as the conclusions of people who study mental disease and sexual abuse professionally jamie mccarthy internet k kzoo edu applelink j mccarthy
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article f zb b w w codewks nacjack gen nz system codewks nacjack gen nz wayne mcdougall writes brian gab unt edu brian drakula stone writes just because someone is gay doesn t mean they have no morals just because someone is heterosexual doesn t mean they do look at the world statistics alone prove that most criminals are by default hetero hmmm what statistics are these can you offer any references the only studies i ve seen indicate a higher proportion of homosexuals in prison than in the general population but i don t think that allows for the default you refer to prison is not a normal situation but i haven t seen anything that suggests that the default proportion is lower than in the general population although it seems plausible anyway as i say can you provide any references is this an arguement against or for or simply a statement of agreeance disagreeance the fact that there are more homosexuals in prison does not mean that homosexuals are immoral and more liable to commit crime and one must remember that prison is not necessarily a reflection of the type of people who are criminals what are the statistics for unsolved crime this posting is definitive bljeghbe chugh vaj blhegh wayne mcdougall keeper of the list of shows better than star trek tm ask me about the auckland festival of missions april i always change my mind when new evidence is available what method do you use adda wainwright does dim atal y llanw o eczcaw mips nott ac uk o mae sig ma ar werth
talk.politics.misc	re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article c s d uu newcastle ac uk chris holt newcastle ac uk chris holt writes so we try to ensure that the process of deciding whether to introduce third parties isn t random as steve said above there are examples where third parties are less ignorant or corrupt than the two primary parties should this knowledge not be able to help of course it helps but only if the decision to involve third parties is the primary partis to make a corrupt and ignorant third party isn t going to say we re corrupt and ignorant we ll stay out of this pointing out that they are corrupt and ignorant won t help they either won t believe you or won t care it s impossible or at least beyond my abilities to formulate a rule that will always tell whether the involvement of a third party would be good or bad but there s one that seems better than any other i ve ever heard suggested voluntary good mandatory bad that is a third party should involve itself in a transaction only at the request of the primary participants so we don t formulate a rule that will always tell we try to use knowledge about other properties of situations to some of us it appears that trying always to apply voluntary good mandatory bad is not only less than optimal it is in some circumstances seriously damaging the interesting question is to characterize those circumstances as best we can look somebody has to have the power to decide whether a third party will regulate your transactions or not that somebody is going to be either you or the third party you can argue until you are blue in the face that regulators shouldn t get involved in fact people have tried this they won t listen the fundamental question you have to ask is whose decision is it whether or not to involve regulators ours or theirs after you ve answered thed first question you can try to move on to such questions as should regulators be involved and if so what regulations are appropriate although with your answer to the first question the second and third are taken out of your hands mr grinch
talk.politics.misc	re bush s wi in article qt e d e usenet ins cwru edu an cleveland freenet edu b writes in a previous article garrett ingres com the sky already fell now what says in article aa inet gw pa dec com blh uiboise idbsu edu broward l horne writes i strongly urge you to consider moving any savings you have overseas into protected bank accounts while you are still able have you went to the post office on friday got my passport apps in my savings have already been converted bye nothing is as inevitable as a mistake whose time has garrett johnson come tussman garrett ingres com the probability of someone watching you is proportional to the stupidity of your action unknown
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes the median number of sexual partners for all men was don t forget that had or more partners not surprising remember that study includes homosexuals as well which would make the number right clayton jamie mccarthy internet k kzoo edu applelink j mccarthy
talk.politics.misc	re temper tantrums from the s in philc lqad k u netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes what will you do for a religion now that marxism leninism is dead who said it was dead it seems to be alive and well here on the net mob rule isn t any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain t charity if you are using someone else s money wilson s theory of relativity if you go back far enough we re all related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
talk.politics.misc	re temper tantrums from the s and s in article apr midway uchicago edu dave seaview bsd uchicago edu writes in article apr oracle us oracle com mfriedma us oracle com michael friedman writes in article apr pony ingres com garrett ingres com writes in article philc lru lxa netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes in article apr pony ingres com garrett ingres com writes you dumb shit it s amazing that someone with your limited vocabulary learned how to use a computer didn t they require you to take english at the school where you went or are you just crude by nature i m forced to agree with garrett here there s no need for vulgarity or even hostility i mean it s not as though garrett asked to be born dumber than a bag of hammers while it can occasionally be annoying there is a noble tragedy to someone with no knowlege of geography or pre madonna history thinking that his political views are worth reading something like a hydroencephalic trying to master nuclear physics i was the first to note that the population of the prc isn t gonna fit into cambodia unless you puree them so there s no need to keep pounding on that idiocy there are plenty of other idiocies in his post find your own and stop hogging mine at first this kind of ranting annoyed me but now it s rather entertaining these kinds of posts don t require any facts logic or even sense it s kind of like what year old kids do on the playground so go on and play not everyone on the net is as simple minded as you guys seem to be dave griffith information resources university of chicago biological sciences division dave delphi bsd uchicago edu brain damage was what we were after the chromosome damage was just gravy nothing is as inevitable as a mistake whose time has garrett johnson come tussman garrett ingres com the probability of someone watching you is proportional to the stupidity of your action unknown
talk.politics.misc	suffer the little children was welcome to police state usa azoghlin uxa cso uiuc edu very old freshman vof writes critisism is too easy what solutions do people have that would have been better than what the fbi had been doing for the last few months lightly off track but still relevant why all the crying over the children i know we are hardwired to consider the future of the race and comapssionate people are concerned for all children but so what for the branch davidians the options were to die or submit to evil tm and have their children s very souls lost due to the brain washing of the ungodly state to put this in terms the average netter might grasp they considered it the equivalent of putting jesse helms in charge of nea and mtv and remembering that in the supreme court struck down freedom of conscience irs vs bob jones et al who s next is your religion belief system government approved jim jones had won numerous awards from the state before he moved to guiana obviously state regulation would have stopped that tragedy too chus pyotr p s the mormons weren t always saints but they did go a long way to be left alone always a thoughtcrime in any properstate pyotr halcyon com sometimes pyotr filipivich sometimes owl optimist bagpiper with a beeper
talk.politics.misc	re welcome to police state usa hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes any government that allows tinpot dictators to set up shop and declare a private state has drifted into anarchy there are laws to control the ownership of guns and the batf had good reason to beleive that they were being violated they set out to obtain a legal warrant and attempted to serve it only to be met with gunfire when they rang the doorbell of course they did otherwise they wouldn t have staged the raid in the first place the paranoid assertion that the batf fired first in an unprovoked assault assumes that the batf were on a death wish had they expected the b d to be anything other than peacefull citizens who would accept a search authorized by a court they would have turned up in a tank and broken the door down on day one the stupidity was the attempt to serve a warant on the place by ludicrously underarmed and unprotected police if anyone on the net cares to suggest a sure fire method of bringing the murderes of four police officers to justice perhaps we could hear it napalming seems a bit redundant the stupidity was in the batf mindset we re from washington we know better execute plan a storm the compound in a no knock the locals are gullible rubes who cares that they served warrents by knocking on the door such an old fashioned out dated method of law enforcement anyway gotta have the latest armament technology doncha know sweet baby buddah didn t these clown ever read dealing with paranoids chus pyotr phill hallam baker pyotr halcyon com sometimes pyotr filipivich sometimes owl optimist bagpiper with a beeper
talk.politics.misc	he just doesn t get it re will they ever learn in article d f b w w cellar org techie cellar org william a bacon writes they refuse to learn from history or from the present pointing to canada s vaunted socialized medical care program he contends that it is failing even while the cost is catching up with angry taxpayers he notes americans don t go to canada and elsewhere for medical care it s the canadians and others who come here why should the united states duplicate what doesn t work well in other countries we have the world s best medical care let s not mess it up with hillary clinton s plans for socialized medicine john f mcmanus national president of the john birch society when mcmanus says we have the world s best medical care i can hardly believe he s referring to a system that costs us percent of our gdp while there isn t a single other country in the industrialized world that spends more than percent that leaves million of us with no coverage even though all the other systems in the industrialized world cover virtually everyone yet americans rank near the bottom of the list in terms of life expectancy childhood immunization rate infant mortality and many preventable diseases we pay on average about each for mris to put that in perspective they cost in japan the average us company spends over dollars a year per employee on health benefits seven hundred to is the range just about everywhere else how can anyone say that such a system is the best in the world the only thing the usa health care system is good at is showering well insured patients with a champagne treatment of care and outrageously overcharging for it and the private system of insurers and paperwork is so bloated and inefficient that it itself sucks up over billion dollars a year in money from every other sector of society individuals government and industry of the billion dollars americans threw into the bottomless pit of health care costs last year the consumer s union estimated that at least billion was thrown away on overpriced useless and even downright harmful tests and procedures and the most bureaucratic regulated insurance system in the world there are more than different private insurers in the usa but did the private competition stimulate more efficient paperwork ask any doctor who s had to hire a full time clerk to deal with it all the competition among hospitals is driving costs up not down the competition among hospitals for both doctors and patients has encouraged the hospitals to traffic in expensive superfluous equipment spending millions on expensive machines of dubious value that spend percent of the day idle isn t my idea of the world s best health care system competition among specialists is driving them to perform dangerous and expensive procedures where they are very marginally helpful i m especially thinking of heart surgery and some women s surgeries like hysterectomy and cesarean section sound like the world s best health care system ever notice how every time someone tries to bring about some real change in health care the libbies start bashing canada s system first of all hillary clinton is not advocating another canadian system i think that s been made abundantly clear in the news for the last couple of months where did john f mcmanus get that idea anyway let s say you re a canadian living in a small town near the usa border your child needs a complicated procedure only available in city hospitals the nearest canadian cities are hours west and hours east and there s an american city one hour south which way are you going to go is it because the american system is the best in the world or just for convenience it still amazes me that people can t seem to see more than just black and white on health care reform there are a million different ways we ould restructure the system it s not just a choice between total government control and total private control i wish the people screaming socialized medicine every time soemone wants to change the current syste would inform themselves on health care issues the current system sucks i want to keep providers private but that doesn t change the fact that we will never be able to deal with the deficit if we don t reform the health care system purely private health care without any government intervention doesn t work hillary clinton is not thinking of nationalizing providers or evern insurers how can you scream socialized medicine at her programs don t you even know what you re talking about ever see clinton s graphs of projected deficit versus year for the rest of the decade notice how the line falls then starts increasing why i ll give you one wild guess as to which component of spending will overwhelm us if we don t do something about it peope just doesn t get it the current health care system is a cancer which is killing our economic well being costs are still rising percent a year even as americans by the tens of millions go without or are forced into managed care programs which are certainly pretty socialized already if you ask me a couple of months ago i posted a message asking any hillary bashers to please come forward and present no gimmicks straight talk just how they would set about keeping costs down i didn t get a single answer the only thing i keep hearing from libbie organizations are press releases filled with evasive platitudes like give health care back to the people just do you expect to do that without serious reforms what is it about the current system that you would change and how would that help how can anyone read the news live under our system and not see these faults how can we deal with the deficit our cities our educational system our infrastrucure aids modernizing our industry etc if we don t quit throwing away money which could be used to solve those problems america needs health care reform now don t just sit there and hillary bash inform yourself jim reynolds james p reynolds that s jim to you and me jpr lehigh edu
talk.politics.misc	re waco survivors april in article c segz mwr dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes in order to reject the word of the fbi and batf it is neccessary to beleive the words of a man who has just murdered children and ordered the suicide murder of his other followers according to the account given the batf attempted to serve a warrant upon koresh at the ranch and were met by gunfire in a deliberate attempt to murder them the koresh gun supporter claim that the batf started shooting simply does not stand up if the aft had gone there to start shooting they would have gone with heavier grade weaponry than standard issue handguns for all practical purposes they were unarmed the b d followers had automatic weapons the people who do not want gun control must obviously discount the entire government story this is simply rationalisation it is not enough for them to simply dismiss the government as incompetent that would require them to come up with a solution themselves instead they have to come up with a government conspiracy theory whereby the government decided to set out to murder people just to set up some sort of scare to alow them to get gun control legislation through i must object to the characterization of those opposed to the government s handling of the waco situation as gun supporters your argument tries to paint the batf critics as right wing gun nuts and just mixes up two issues i am one of the batf fbi critics and yet i am a liberal and just as anti gun as you are i just happen to believe that everyone has civil rights even religious crazies they re all human beings not some nest of wasps that you re trying to exterminate the batf created the crisis situation by the way they handled the original raid it was well known that koresh regularly went jogging outside his property he could have been served with a search warrant then he could have been arrested if he had refused to comply instead officers armed with grenades invaded the property this escalated into a shooting war with tragic deaths on both sides those were the first two mistakes the bad judgment of asking for a no knock warrant and the bad and probably illegal way the already unwise warrant was served at this point the situation escalated to where it was described as an armed standoff and a hostage crisis that s when the government started covering their traces sealing the warrant revising their reported history of the incident etc things were already building up to disaster now the government could have simply closed the supply routes and waited but according to janet reno that option had never been seriously considered so supposedly because the agents were frustrated and fatigued and because there supposedly were no backups they felt they had to go in now it s entirely possible that koresh was responsible for the fire if that s so he deserves the blame for the deaths of the people in his compound but the government s hands are far from clean their first raid demonstrated bad judgment plus contempt for the th amendment the motivations for the second raid are just too unbelievable and their coverup of the events of the first raid undermines their credibility in anything they do thereafter we have only some very biased fbi agents word for what happened and please let s not turn this into a pro gun vs anti gun discussion anti gun people do not believe that gun owners deserve to get frontally assaulted by armed government agents and koresh s civil rights exist whether his guns were legal illegal illegal but should have been legal or whatever rob strom strom watson ibm com ibm research saw mill river road p o box yorktown heights ny
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article apr galileo cc rochester edu as b uhura cc rochester edu tree of schnopia writes what was the purpose of this post if it was to show a mindless obsession with statistics an incredibly flawed system of reasoning and a repellent hatemonger agenda then the purpose was accomplished with panache a get a clue b get a life c get out of my face i m not in yours bi andrew d simchik schnopia yes you are when you and the rest of the homosexual community pass laws to impose your moral codes on me by requiring me to hire rent to or otherwise associate with a homosexual against my will yes you are in my face until homosexuals stop trying to impose their morals on me i will be in your face about this gosh i have to associate with heterosexuals against my will every day that means you ve imposed your moral codes on me now doesn t it fortunately i have taken the time to get to know some members of the het community and discovered that hey they really aren t all evil elitists with no concept of reality i ve got a few clues for you a i m not working to pass any laws b our morals are your morals i imagine you value freedom so do we if you value your own freedom you must necessarily accept that these laws are important to protect it after all discriminate in one area and you re open to discriminate in the rest c i suggest learning a bit more about gays lesbians and bis before you post the kind of drivel you have been it s obvious that you haven t a clue who you re talking about clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all but not between members of the same sex right how can you live with such hypocrisy drewcifer bi andrew d simchik schnopia as b uhura cc rochester edu treewater words weren t made for cowards happy rhodes
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article c navn f p murdoch acc virginia edu gsh w fermi clas virginia edu greg hennessy writes in article philc n d mk netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes tells you something about the fascist politics being practiced ah ending discrimination is now fascism greg hennessy university of virginia when you force people to associate with others against their will yes we re having to associate with you against our will this is fascism you don t have to associate with anyone against your will go live in a cave we won t miss you drewcifer bi andrew d simchik schnopia as b uhura cc rochester edu treewater words weren t made for cowards happy rhodes
talk.politics.misc	re race and violence in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu alaramor magnus acs ohio state edu aaron c laramore writes basically i think this tendency for non african americans to believe that something is wrong with us exists because non african americans don t want to deal with the possiblility that the society is deeply biased against african americans and that this is about of the problem there is something terribly wrong however with a culture which condemns attacks and all too often kills any of its members who attempt to get an education my mother is an elementary school teacher and she tells me that she and her african american collegues are frustrated to tears by the fact that any african american child who attempts to do well in school and get an education is accused by his her peers of trying to be white and is beaten bullied and tormented by them it goes beyond each passing grade on a test earning a beating in my mother s school one of the most promising young students who happened to be african american had her throat cut by one of these young thugs nobody who buys into such a culture has any hope of being anything but poor and or a thug and or dead regardless of their color what has to be changed is the culture if that culture can t be changed then those african american kids who are willing to separate from it must be separated from it and the murderous thugs of whatever color otherwise future bright young african american girls who wanted to be doctors will end up dead on the school bus let s face it when it comes to utilities microsoft has mike van pelt performed about as well as a savings and loan these are mvp netcom com the guys remember who put backup and restore not to mvp lsil com mention edlin on your hard disk lincoln spector
talk.politics.misc	re why not concentrate on child molesters in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article c og h de exnet co uk sys exnet co uk xavier gallagher writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes well the obvious point to make is would straight men fuck like rabbits if the oppertunity presented itself i reckon any man would go wildly promiscuous if presented with a huge variety of willing partners the question here is not of being that i suppose says a lot about how screwed up you are no cramer it does not in this instance you are telling porkies to yourself as well as everyone else haven t you ever been to a cafe or restaurant and been absalutely stuffed full of goodies and yet when one more item just a little different with a new texture and a new taste was presented you somehow found the space for it maybe you haven t so what it is a widely reported phenomina and i reckon the same applies to sex clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine xavier clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine xavier
talk.politics.misc	re top ten comments overheard in the secret service lounge in article qocun h r access digex net carlaron access digex com carl aron writes and the word liberal definitely has a different connotation than what you have written above just ask michael dukakis yeah the republicans have defined it to mean spends money on things that don t make our rich buddies richer if you have something reasoned and intelligent to say then you should post if all you can do is rant and rave save it or maybe they mean that liberals believe in tax and spend rather than borrow and spend true conservatism is cutting spending and taxes it s a matter of debate just how succesful the last few presidents have been at that finally it means open minded about things that i don t want to be open minded about i hear it again and again and i ve noticed far more often from liberals than anyone else if you don t agree with me you are close minded look who s talking i suggest you take a look at your post i see nothing but unfair and unsubstantiated generalizations it suggests that the author is anything but open minded next time you feel like posting something like this save it for somebody who cares carl william everett these opinions are mine harvy mudd college you can t have them the insane fear of socialism throws the bourgeois headlong into the arms of despotism tocqueville the insane fear of reaganism throws the liberals headlong into the arms of socialism mcguinness
talk.politics.misc	re abolish selective service you selfish little bastard afraid you might have to sacrafice somthing for your country what someone not approve a lone for you to bad what is immoral is people like you and the current president who don t have any idea why this country still exists after years i don t consider these ideas selfish i consider them rational i agree with the body of your post but please reconsider your phrasing here i think these ideas are selfish and rational which is commendable don t give selfishness a bad rap if we were all selfless there would be no moral reason not to have a draft it the draft is the ultimate in mindlessly serving your fellow man with no thought to the importance of the self the opinions expressed herein are not necessarily shared by my employer they came to me while viewing prime time sit coms
talk.politics.misc	re are americans sexually repressed in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer wrote unless of course the problem is that homosexuality is a form of mental disorder caused by childhood sexual abuse as a number of recent works suggest mr cramer when are you going to stop indulging in such blatant lies this is not only not true you know damned well that it s not true none of your research supports this no mental health expert has taken this position this is your own opinion which is not backed up by any research or any knowledge according to one survey done in san francisco the number of heterosexual men who were molested as children was on the order of the number of homosexual men who were molested as children was on the order of source a book on sexual abuse of children by david finkelhor sorry the title escapes me conclusions that can be drawn from this none if homosexuals would stop using the government to impose their morality on others antidiscrimination laws and leave our children alone i wouldn t care in the least what they did in private but until they get over the liberal notion that the proper role of government is to tell peaceful people how to live i have no choice but to continue to point out that homosexuality is not an alternative lifestyle but a sickness oh you definitely have a choice you realize of course that you are approaching the two year anniversary of your crusade how are you planning on celebrating two years of lies incidentally we are still waiting your crusade against african americans women and other minorities who also want to impose their morality on others after all they also want the government to tell peaceful people how to live therefore you really have no choice but to continue to point out that being a woman or an african american is not a lifestyle but a sickness it s bullshit mr cramer it was bullshit when you began this crusade and it s still bullshit i am continually amazed at the depths to which you ll stoop to carry on this deliberate attack paul bartholomew pdb ipl jpl nasa gov
talk.politics.misc	re waco survivors april in article apm apr hpopdlau pwd hp com apm hpopdlau pwd hp com andrew merritt writes path dscomsa dxcern mcsun uknet pipex uunet think com sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com apm from apm hpopdlau pwd hp com andrew merritt in article apr vms ocom okstate edu chorley vms ocom okstate edu writes i note with insufficient emotion that amongst the five survivors of the waco debacle there were two brits and an aussie the anglo saxon persona really doesn t lend itself to martyrdom for a spurious messiah i don t see how you draw that conclusion around of the inside the buildings were british one quarter two out of the eight latest count i heard survivors were british one quarter anyhow british doesn t equate to anglo saxon what exactly are you trying to say and why were there no fire engines within a mile of the compound because the gun loonies were firing on vehicles with mm amunition that has a range of meters next question the problem is of course the laws that allow a bunch of raving nutters to collect a huge stack of arms in the first place the sequence of events meant that there really was no option but to attempt some sort of breakthrough via an intervention if the fbi had had the stomach for it they could have mounted a commando type raid and attempted to save the children by shooting all the adults it really was a no win situation koresh had plenty of opportunity to give up and stand trial for the murder of the atf officers instead he ordered the murder of the children in order to reject the word of the fbi and batf it is neccessary to beleive the words of a man who has just murdered children and ordered the suicide murder of his other followers according to the account given the batf attempted to serve a warrant upon koresh at the ranch and were met by gunfire in a deliberate attempt to murder them the koresh gun supporter claim that the batf started shooting simply does not stand up if the aft had gone there to start shooting they would have gone with heavier grade weaponry than standard issue handguns for all practical purposes they were unarmed the b d followers had automatic weapons the b d seige could not be allowed to go on indefinitely the b d were quite capable of commiting mass suicide and murdering the children at any time a commando assault was the only other likely action that could have achieved that objective that would have been very risky orders of magintude harder than antebbe or the iranian embassy seige airplanes and embassies are not designed for defense against attack ranch apocalypse was terrorists are far easier to disloge without casualties than allowing the siege to go on was not an option either besides the serious risk that koresh would proclaim armageddon at any moment there was the question of the difficulties of keeping the emmergency team on standby over a prolonged period the longer the siege went on the more mentally prepared koresh and his followers would be for a prolonged siege rather than go in prematurely the mistake was probably to go in too soon can you think of a better way of getting the children out a certain way the people who do not want gun control must obviously discount the entire government story this is simply rationalisation it is not enough for them to simply dismiss the government as incompetent that would require them to come up with a solution themselves instead they have to come up with a government conspiracy theory whereby the government decided to set out to murder people just to set up some sort of scare to alow them to get gun control legislation through this conspiracy theory assumes that the batf deliberately got of its agents killed and that the fbi etc actually enjoy sitting out in the middle of texas being shot at by religious nutters still the conspiracy theory is comforting it allows them to pretend that waco proves nothing except about how incompetent the government is in resolving a hostage crisis no govt in the world has ever faced a comparable situation quite probably there was no manner in which it could be peacefully resolved the blame does not rest on the fbi it rests on the fact that koresh was allowed to get so far in particular the person who tipped the b d off in advance has the murder of atf agents and children on his or her conscience there are a large number of people in the us who predict the end of society preach salvation through armed security the fact is that these are the very people who pose the threat to society in the first place the next waco may not be religious nutters but a political movement a splinter group of the klu klux klan taking over a schoolhouse in a black area for example and holding several hundred children hostage the only possible solution to such situations that can work is to prevent them arising no other government in the world has faced such a situation this is because no other government has so carelessly allowed high power weaponry to become avaliable to any little hitler or would be messiah to set themselves up as dictator in their own little empire phill hallam baker
talk.politics.misc	re welcome to police state usa in c rusq m m news cso uiuc edu azoghlin uxa cso uiuc edu very old freshman vof writes critisism is too easy what solutions do people have that would have been better than what the fbi had been doing for the last few months after the seige began surround the place with razor wire and then let them sit do not have daily press conferences do your best to keep things out of the press as things get more and more miserable inside one of two things is going to happen people will start coming out they will commit suicide in mass at some point the thing to remember about is that hysterical situations and assults play into the hands of a leader who has picked this course its much easier to stampede people into something like suicide if there is gas coming in and bullets in the air let them be hungry and miserable for longer and longer and it will probably be more effective the possiblity that they would all kill themselves at some point would not bother me in the least or alter tactics if people are going to take their own lives the best you can probably do is prevent yourself from giving them the opportunity or an excuse to do it if the fbi and attorney general vampira really were concerned with sanitation and welfare of the children inside they would not have turned the water to the compound off as a pressure tactic in the first place
talk.politics.misc	drug use and policy in japan is anyone out there knowledgeable on drug issues in japan i m interested in knowing if japan has or has ever had a problem with drugs and how they dealt with it i ve heard undocumented that japan years ago used heavy legal penalties to end a serious heroin problem i d like to know both sides of the story does anyone recall such a problem what were laws at the time relating to drug use drug dealing and drug trafficking what are the laws now what other anti drug measures like education and treatment has japan used how are drugs regarded by the japanese people how effective have anti drug measures been in japan thanks for your help david borden borden m harvard edu
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes some chump at brandeis i mean how many people actually care how many people are gay as long as you know how to find avoid them if you want to i don t if you don t care why was so much effort put into promoting the lie because it was important to scare politicians into obedience i wouldn t worry too much about it though we are starting to find out how politically impotent homosexuals really are the colorado boycott has fizzled slick willie was effectively prevented from implementing his military policy wrt homosexuals by members of his own party this new study casts a large shadow of doubt on their claims of large numbers and coming this saturday they are going to wind up with tremendous egg on their face when i submit no more than perhaps queers will show up in washington while they are promising crowds in the millions and most of the ones who will be there will look like act up and queer nation not the guy working in the next cubicle as if that s really going to play in middle america pretty soon they will find themselves retreating back into the closet where they belong the views expressed herein are theodore a kaldis my own only do you seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe that a major university rutgers remus rutgers edu kaldis as this would hold such views
talk.politics.misc	re nc vs hunt marine gay bashing in wilmington nc verdict in article apr bsu ucs cmmiller leo bsuvc bsu edu writes how about the fact that you have a bunch of cops putting their lives on the line day in and day out who are afraid as hell of a large black guy that took a large amount of punishment and refused submit oh yeah did you watc h the start of the video when king got up out of his prone postion and charge the cops sorry the video cuts both was when you sit and watch it start to even if rodney king had come out of that car waving a gun and they managed to disarm him the police still had no right right to beat him senseless the way they did once he was on the ground if they can t handle their jobs they should be relieved of them additionally anna quindlan of the new york times said it best paraphrase many people bring up what happened before what is shown on the tape here s what came before the s ronald reagan george bush racism jim halat
talk.politics.misc	re he just doesn t get it re will they ever learn jpr ns cc lehigh edu james p reynolds writes peope just doesn t get it the current health care system is a cancer which is killing our economic well being costs are still rising percent a year even as americans by the tens of millions go without or are forced into managed care programs which are certainly pretty socialized already if you ask me a couple of months ago i posted a message asking any hillary bashers to please come forward and present no gimmicks straight talk just how they would set about keeping costs down i didn t get a single answer the first thing i would do would be to disband medicare and medicade they are a primary reason why health care costs are going up to cover the people that are currently on these programs i would sell their coverage in blocks to insurance companies the private companies would bid to get these large blocks of people and prices would go down to get away from strong federal control on health care i would pass off more control to the states everyone is always spewing forth about how wonderful hawaii is doing well how about giving some other states incentive to try their own plans what i would not do is try to implement some far reaching federal program program to cover all americans because this is the surest way to fail how can anyone read the news live under our system and not see these faults how can we deal with the deficit our cities our educational system our infrastrucure aids modernizing our industry etc if we don t quit throwing away money which could be used to solve those problems one sure way to stop throwing money away is to stop giving so much to the federal government our federal taxes should be slashed and our state taxes increased a strong central government always fails give power back to the states counties cities where it belongs america needs health care reform now don t just sit there and hillary bash inform yourself the more i inform myself the more i want to hillary bash
talk.politics.misc	re eight myths about national health insurance pt ii v pxgt ubvmsb cc buffalo edu daniel b case writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes v pxgt ubvmsb cc buffalo edu daniel b case writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes okay but do doctors willingly testify against each other in malpractice cases when they do go to court obviously absolutely essential to prove malpractice it used to be impossible to get doctors here to do that a possible advantage of the us system you won t hear about from the ama our doctors monopoly is exactly the same as in the u s if not more powerful now that they can dictate insurance payment rates but i don t know an answer to this one anecdotally my friends who are md s including my main buds from high school talk about how hard it is to turn state s witness against someone else no direct experience there though also in some circumstances you may have to sue the insurance plan people here after all sue health insurance companies all the time i heard about a guy in alberta who came down with some rare eye disease that he had to take repeated trips to seattle to get treated it cost him and his family something like and the province years later still has only reimbursed them for or so well what american private insurance plans cover travel expenses since our public insurance plans are publicly accountable one can raise a stink in the media to try and extort benefits beyond which one is entitled hey not alberta s fault that he lives there if he lived in cheyenne wy his private insurance would ve told him to go to hell for the travel expenses and that s that an hmo would have just kept quiet and let him go blind well yeah tell us about the national defense medical centre outside ottawa it serves the same purpose as the bethesda naval hospital since not all hospitals can provide everything maybe they have some stuff that others don t ottawa s population is only a quarter million if you include the surrounding counties my point was that something that should necessarily remain unpoliticized has become very politicized to the detriment of its mission i don t think that this has been shown with the dmc the problem is in a system where hospitals annual budgets are approved by the government how do you keep political considerations out of medical decisions i bet that if you re an mp or mpp or good friends with one you re put on any hospital s urgent care list no matter how minor your problem which is ok unless you re someone who gets bumped off the list for some bigshot people of influence will get their way in any system american or european it s the golden rule he who has the gold makes the rules but to what extent does it affect the system and why is an urgent care list necessary in the first place it s worth thinking about it s regular practice in a hospital to figure out who needs to get at what facilities don t americans have to arrange in advance for operations too i think that there are two standards being applied here and that canada can t give beverly hills style treatment to everybody it s not a big brother list it s more like calling around town for a table for dinner yeah but private nonprofit foundations have to make money somehow especially in the hospital business yes and the tories in ottawa are trying to make them do that rather than hope for a bigger grant from the feds and their province the next time around whether it s using mop a couple of weeks longer or even selling services to americans remember our system is cash based and since our health care infrastructure is overbuilt except in specialties that require larger populations to generate business why not the alternative is closing unused wards business whether canadians would be thrilled at the prospect of their own health services catering toward americans who would be willing to pay more than they do is another issue entirely it must be noted that they said they were doing it partly because their grants from the province were getting smaller if those grants are so insubstantial why the need to attract foreigners to make up the difference you answered the question yourself private nonprofit foundations have to make money somehow and i think that it s about time that they acted like the private hospitals that they are personally i m fed up with canadian socialists trying to tell everyone that their health care is free when we are actually buying insurance that s one at you bob rae the gdp figures are combined public and private expenditures for total outlay and are compiled use the same methods by the oecd that yield the figure for the u s but don t the us figures include dentistry and optometry where the canadian one until recently anyway didn t since we have always been evaluated in an oecd style i don t see how remember oecd counts both private and public funds and in canada like france and germany of health care spending is private funds i e not the basic health insurance money so what happens if the health care systems financially collapse how they are collecting premiums and i m an advocate of having copayments like the french do in their system well if you spend more than you take in you go bankrupt it s that simple if the provincial insurance systems find themselves paying out more than they get in revenue they won t be able to pay for everybody s primary care yes the infrastructure will be there but will everybody be able to continue using it at the same rate minor copayments can flush out abusers remember that our system is only an insurance policy but our costs aren t rising fast enough to ensure adequate copayments deductibles last year quebec s user fee proposal came out with the number of as the necessary hike that could be done through a copayment rather than give the qma a raise and it s not contract time yet as far as i can tell from upi clarinet even the new reform party a breakoff of traditionalists from the conservatives with a mildly libertarian faction holds our public health insurance as an untouchable but that just a few people have to be reminded that it s not free the average canadian european is more fiscally naive than their american counterparts on issues like these but no mention of copayments anywhere to be seen but cutting public spending all over the place and bringing back the death penalty with little haste if elected i know that for pete s sake i live right on the border i know the canadian system isn t socialized medicine unlike britain s nhs sorry it s just that i even run into people from buffalo and from michigan who don t know the point is that means that if the money runs low in the plan you re out of luck unless you can afford it yourself yeah but there d be a lot of lead time and a health care crisis that would preclude it if provincial governments as bad as some of them are heck we have the ndp cleaning up a spending mess made by the conservatives in saskatchewan embarassing can be so irresponsible there is still reallocation health insurance is so important that it s about the only thing that can inspire open rebellion and violent insurrection outside of the hockey rink right now attempts to get the system and its users to learn good habits are being treated like cod liver oil would the private insurers take up the slack they d be under no obligation to of course they could eventually make money again but if what you say is true they d be loathe to do so and out of practice in handling such basic services too some of the companies providing extra insurance are subsidiaries of american companies and their parents provide full insurance down here regardless all firms up north can easily turn on cable tv to see how well the american firms are doing by being involved in basic coverage the private firms are making too much money after having gotten rid of basic coverage they run around patting them selves on the back for their own cooperation in providing extras for those people who deserve it yeah but eventually it s going to create a kind of two tiered effect that will be noticeable after a while like in britain most americans are fearful of a single tier system seriously there are few areas that have sufficient population for a two more tiered system like what the french have a health policy prof d g shea has cited studies in the nejm that indicate having a population of is necessary for adequate competition and in canada there are only four cities west of the great lakes with that population or larger anyways the numbers show that costs have held steadier than those in the u s and barring any future chernobyl like crisis sudden transients in spending are unlikely in fact the health allocation is one of the most well behaved sectors of spending up north so any talk of bankruptcy is talk radio fodder far away from the border if the provinces hit fiscal rough spots and have to cut back the things private insurers have to offer will seem less and less like luxuries and the gap will be more and more noticeable this won t be overnight and something like this would force canada to have a system more like the french one but that s not a bad thing and the change will be minimal i e add copayments and frustrate the socialists chanting hey it s free gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
talk.politics.misc	re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes it would seem that a society with a failed government would be an ideal setting for libertarian ideals to be implemented now why do you suppose that never seems to occur advances in freedom have been made in the past the divine right of king concept was questioned at one time and may have used the same argument that it hadn t come about before but our ancestors had the courage to throw off the old system that said that one man ruling many was necessary to have a decent wholesome society in the s the concept of slavery was questioned our ancestors had the courage to question a practice that had existed for thousands of years was the idea that one man owning another necessary to have a decent wholesome society now libertarians question the necessity of majoritarianism is it necessary that many people rule over many others to have a decent wholesome society paul schmidt advocates for self government davy crockett chapter president judith drive johnson city tn uunet tijc pjs freedom seems to have unleashed the creative energies of the people and leads to ever higher levels of income and social progress u n report
talk.politics.misc	re bill targets pension funds for liberation in article c qqke j ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com mark wilson writes in master cna tek com mikeq freddy cna tek com mike quigley writes excerpts from insight magazine march paranoia part deleted isn t insight magazine published by the mooneys i don t remember the article that you removed so i can t comment on it what i can comment on though is your response do you really believe that what you wrote is sufficient to refute the article do have any facts in addition to your opinion no one has time to chase down every rumor that gets printed in the national enquirer or whatever the point is to wait and see if the assertions of the rather bizarre original post will be corroborated in any way perhaps they will the recent posts of the rather bizarre original poster speak for themselves david
talk.politics.misc	re welcome to police state usa in article c rusq m m news cso uiuc edu azoghlin uxa cso uiuc edu very old freshman vof writes critisism is too easy what solutions do people have that would have been better than what the fbi had been doing for the last few months anything but bill clinton and janett reno should not have started the whole shenanigan in the first place disclaimer opinions expressed are mine not my employer s
talk.politics.misc	re waco burnout visser convex com lance visser writes in apr teetot acusd edu jerry teetot acusd edu jerry stratton writes happen it seems that what they were trying to do was get the children out the idea was that ramming the compound with the tank and pouring in tear gas was supposed to send all the mothers fleeing outside with their children if any reliance was put on women s mothering instinct in an official explanation of a govt action during a republican administration would it generate so few complaints as opposed to complaints about the action itself spending programs are now investments taxes are contributions and these are the same people who say i need a dictionary dan quayle my employer is not responsible for anything that may appear above
talk.politics.misc	re welcome to police state usa in article c rusq m m news cso uiuc edu azoghlin uxa cso uiuc edu very old freshman vof writes critisism is too easy what solutions do people have that would have been better than what the fbi had been doing for the last few months how about tell everyone what the hell they were doing there in the first place if we knew that we d be in a much better position to judge their actions until then we can only speculate and develop nice conspiracy and or police state stories bob
talk.politics.misc	re race and violence not this again
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage from elf halcyon com elf sternberg bzzzzt thank you for playing but obviously you are not reading the material as it is presented according to the report i ve got in my hands the newsweek article which reported that to percent of the population is gay used the criteria of no heterosexual contact in the past year but at the same time the university of denver study points out quite dramatically that of all self identifying gay men have had some form of heterosexual contact in the past year i think the big mistake in that study must be that if one had had no sexual contact of any kind in the previous year they are counted as heterosexual even if they didn t intend it that way that s how the figures are being used
talk.politics.misc	re welcome to police state usa in article apr udel edu carroll hercules cis udel edu mark c carroll writes wait a second you re ignoring major facts here there was no attempt to simply serve a warrant the batf had a no knock warrant the initial firefight began when the batf threw concussion grenades at the building batf admits this when did the batf say this everything i ve seen from the batf from the official version to the dissident statements of batf officers who conducted the raid claims that the davidians were shooting at the agents long before they were within grenade range also if the warrant is sealed how do we know it was a no knock mitchell s todd mst zeus tamu edu
talk.politics.misc	re the earth also pollutes people die of natural causes too we hear all this bellyaching over things like murder and war while mother nature is killing people all of the time in fact more people die of natural causes than due to the conscious actions of other people so what s a few murders here and there john berryhill
talk.politics.misc	re are americans sexually repressed jamie r mccarthy k hobbes kzoo edu wrote cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes unless of course the problem is that homosexuality is a form of mental disorder caused by childhood sexual abuse as a number of recent works suggest which number is that zero the only time i have heard mention of such a mechanism is with respect to female homosexuality resulting from heterosexual childhood abuse and this as only one of several factors affecting the same person as mr cramer appears to concentrate on male homosexuality i doubt this is what he has in mind mark evans evansmp uhura aston ac uk home evansmp cs aston ac uk x office
talk.politics.misc	re welcome to police state usa in article c si g hx dscomsa desy de hallam zeus desy de writes the above conveniently ignores the murder of four batf agents by the branch davidians in an unprovoked ambush any government that allows tinpot dictators to set up shop and declare a private state has drifted into anarchy there are laws to control the ownership of guns and the batf had good reason to beleive that they were being violated they set out to obtain a legal warrant and attempted to serve it only to be met with gunfire when they rang the doorbell the paranoid assertion that the batf fired first in an unprovoked assault assumes that the batf were on a death wish had they expected the b d to be anything other than peacefull citizens who would accept a search authorized by a court they would have turned up in a tank and broken the door down on day one so you approve of the batf launching a person raid complete with flack jackets men hidden in horse trailers stun grenades semi auto weapons on peaceful citizens who would also accept a search authoried by a court there is still no proof that the branch davidians had illegal weapons nothing else was in the jurisdiction of the batf unless they were thought to have a still or be smoking untaxed cigarettes the automatic firearms violation is a tax matter you don t serve no knock warrants on someone with cal mgs it isn t necessary they can t flush a machine gun down a toilet you know and it isn t smart if you are right you got a good chance of getting blown away if you are wrong you shouldn t have done it the stupidity was the attempt to serve a warant on the place by ludicrously underarmed and unprotected police the stupidity was indeed related to this but the stupidity may have been to attempt to serve the warrant by ludicrously over armed over protected and over confident gestapo escalation isn t automatically brilliant it was a tax matter you can t flush mgs down the toilet you don t need no knock warrants for everything actually imho nothing justifies them but that is another argument if anyone on the net cares to suggest a sure fire method of bringing the murderes of four police officers to justice perhaps we could hear it there wasn t any murder of police officers there was probable cause to arrest them for murder perhaps we us citizens are innocent until proven guilty there also wasn t any killing until the batf screwed up real bad phill hallam baker lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective is worth iq points niels bohr or somebody like that
talk.politics.misc	re welcome to police state usa in c si g hx dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes in article apr cc usu edu slp k cc usu edu writes xref dscomsa alt activism talk politics misc path dscomsa dxcern mcsun uunet gatech howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov hellgate utah edu cc usu edu slp k from slp k cc usu edu newsgroups alt activism talk politics misc subject re welcome to police state usa message id apr cc usu edu date apr mdt references apr cc usu edu c rusq m m news cso uiuc edu organization utah state university lines in article c rusq m m news cso uiuc edu azoghlin uxa cso uiuc edu very old freshman vof writes critisism is too easy what solutions do people have that would have been better than what the fbi had been doing for the last few months firstly they could have backed off when you put a power freak like david koresh in that kind of situation he is going to explode no pun intended koresh wanted to be a martyr and the government played right into his hands if the government hadn t given him the attention he wanted nothing would have ever happened secondly the davidians were expecting everything the government did they thought that they were facing the apocalypse and that they were to perish in fire they weren t scared of the fbi they are not the average hoods they are very devout followers of a religion psyops didn t work and the government got frustrated so they murdered them the batf should have left at the beginning they should have looked at koresh s personality instead they thought they have guns we have bigger guns let s go get em they botched it from day one they shouldn t have been there in the first place the above conveniently ignores the murder of four batf agents by the branch davidians in an unprovoked ambush any government that allows tinpot dictators to set up shop and declare a private state has drifted into anarchy there are laws to control the ownership of guns and the batf had good reason to beleive that they were being violated they set out to obtain a legal warrant and attempted to serve it only to be met with gunfire when they rang the doorbell the paranoid assertion that the batf fired first in an unprovoked assault assumes that the batf were on a death wish had they expected the b d to be anything other than peacefull citizens who would accept a search authorized by a court they would have turned up in a tank and broken the door down on day one the search was a no knock warrent meaning that what those on the scene see is a bunch of men with guns storming their compound and lobbing grenades at them the terms of the search warrent are secret and the batf has yet to even reveal what they were the stupidity was the attempt to serve a warant on the place by ludicrously underarmed and unprotected police they did not serve a warrent they basically attacked the compound and expected a surrender they had semiautomatics and concussion grenades that we know about look at the death and injury toll inflicted on both sides in the first battle and its difficult to believe that either side had any superiority in weapons if anyone on the net cares to suggest a sure fire method of bringing the murderes of four police officers to justice perhaps we could hear it
talk.politics.misc	a few questions for janet reno a few questions for janet reno why don t you think generals have any place in law enforcement if the atf fbi had proof that koresh was a child molester a child abuser a wife abuser bigamist sexual deviant not a crime in all states yet as well as illegally modify weapons why wasn t he simply arrested during one of his morning jogs why did the allegations of child wife sex crimes only come out after the branch davidians repelled the initial assualt was it because it became necessary to demonize david koresh do you feel responsible for the deaths of over people how many would be alive to day if koresh had been arrested outside the compound inquiring minds want to know although janet was installed after the siege began her purge of the justice dept leaves only her people in charge brett there s nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction sean o casey in the white plague by frank herbert
talk.politics.misc	re what is clinton in article kielo uta fi csfraw vehka cs uta fi francis akoto writes i would like to know clintons background is he anglo saxon irish italian hispanic etc he s liar cheat and demagogue brett there s nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction sean o casey in the white plague by frank herbert
talk.politics.misc	re f o cus health the big secret in article aa poly math cor harelb math cornell edu writes it is a matter of logic that government run systems are inefficient and the fact that the highly bureaucratized private sector system in the us is vastly more inefficient is therefore irrelevant proof that the entire private sector is vastly more inefficient it is for example of no relevance that blue cross of massachusetts employs people more than are employed in all of canada s health programs which insure times as many people blue cross is the government health insurance provider oops ads for z magazine deleted to save the earth brett there s nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction sean o casey in the white plague by frank herbert
talk.politics.misc	re why not concentrate on child molesters in article optilink com walsh optilink com mark walsh writes in article c og h de exnet co uk sys exnet co uk xavier gallagher writes well the obvious point to make is would straight men fuck like rabbits if the oppertunity presented itself i reckon any man would go wildly promiscuous if presented with a huge variety of willing partners if true and if gays were the same as straights except for sexual preference i would imagine that gays would have much less sex than straights because the available pool for dates is less than one tenth what it is for straights somebody correct flame me please you miss the point a lot more negotiation is needed to convince women to have sex because there is a big taboo about women being free with their sex many of the women i know would do almost anything rather than be known as a slag slut or whore with men however there is status attached to being able to fuck constantly and with gay men where both partners can prove status through their constant verility then you are going to get a situation where there is a lot of sex the difference is between het sex being rationed as a valuable commodity and gay sex being virtually unlimited due to the appetites of men straights suffer a bottle neck where women are concerned gay men who do not experience this bottle neck go to excess mark walsh walsh optilink uucp uunet optilink walsh xavier
talk.politics.misc	janet reno killed the waco children janet reno killed the waco children she is responsible for their deaths she should resign immediately she should have understood that david koresh was a madman who would do anything against the children if he became provoked all the warning signs were there and she ignored them she provoked koresh into killing the children the situation in waco was similar to a hostage situation with a madman holding a gun against the head of an innocent person in such a situation a person who provokes the madman and causes him to pull the gun s trigger is responsible for the death of the hostage janet reno blindly stumbled in there and basically threw a tear gas container at the madman hoping that he would release the hostage it s no surprise that the madman would pull the trigger in response to that kind of provocation doug holtsinger
talk.politics.misc	clinton presidential statement on waco the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april statement of president clinton i am deeply saddened by the loss of life in waco today my thoughts and prayers are with the families of david koresh s victims the law enforcement agencies involved in the waco siege recommended the course of action pursued today the attorney general informed me of their analysis and judgment and recommended that we proceed with today s action given the risks of maintaining the previous policy indefinitely i told the attorney general to do what she thought was right and i stand by that decision
talk.politics.misc	re nc vs hunt marine gay bashing in wilmington nc verdict wdstarr athena mit edu william december starr writes in article apr lynx dac northeastern edu tfarrell lynx dac northeastern edu thomas farrell said a good case a f king good case the defense lawyer asked the victim questions like what kind of sexual perversions do you participate in and you think he made a good case speaking as someone who s only about six weeks and a tuition bill away from becoming an unemployed slob with a law degree i d really like to see a transcript of this trial i d especially like to know what happened immediately after the defense attorney asked that question assuming that the reports that he did so are accurate i m not accusing tom farrell of making anything up but this is the sort of case that spawns garbled misquotes false rumors and urban legends like tribbles it d be nice to think that the prosecutor objected irrelevant prejudicial inflammatory take your pick and that the judge upheld the objection having watched most of the televised trial i can answer that when such statements were made by the defense atty the prosecutor did object and the judge tended to sustain the ones that were obviously falling under the self incrimination type of objection there was quite a bit of meta discussion during the trial over the use of graphic language with most folks asking the judge if she wanted to hear the exact language practically every time the defense tried to get the plaintiffs to self incriminate by asking them such questions there were objections and sustains at one point the defense managed to get in a quip about solicitation for a felony and the judge herself said sustained before the prosecutor could get the objection stated g wolfe woodbury the wolves den durham nc this site is not affiliated wolfe wolves durham nc us with duke university idiots uucp duke wolves wolfe standard disclaimers apply above all we celebrate celebrate the circle statement of purpose
talk.politics.misc	re janet reno killed the waco children in article apr ncsu edu dsh eceyv ncsu edu doug holtsinger writes janet reno killed the waco children she is responsible for their deaths she should resign immediately she should have understood that david koresh was a madman who would do anything against the children if he became provoked all the warning signs were there and she ignored them she provoked koresh into killing the children aside from the fact that i disagree w you she did offer to resign and the president rejected the offer she was willing to take responsibility and the president has the balls enough to stand by a decision
talk.politics.misc	re median re new study out on gay percentage in article qvb ainnmoi darkstar ucsc edu stephen orchid ucsc edu writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes from the santa rosa cal press democrat april p b male sex survey gay activity low note this contradictory title gay activity low not really the percentage of gays was low headline writers aren t noted for accuracy a new natonal study on male sexual behavior the most thorough examination of american men s sexual practices published since the kinsey report more than four decades ago shows about percent of the men surveyed had engaged in homosexual sex and percent considered themselves exclusively homosexual the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners the median number of sexual partners for all men was it s a shame that we don t have a breakdown for straight men vs gay bi men that would show even more dramatically how much more promiscuous gay bi men are now let s take a quick look at what you are saying the median of a distribution is that variate value which divides the distribution halfway i e of the distribution population have lower and half have higher variate values so for males the median this means that half of these men are higher than this and half are lower than this now if the population sample size is and of them are gay males are gay if we actually were either exclusively homosexual or bisexual you aren t readiing very carefully say they are distributed equally then only are greater than sexual partners of course this means that heterosexual men are greater than interesting results clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re can t have it both ways news as enemy news as supporter in article qvampinnmhf darkstar ucsc edu stephen orchid ucsc edu writes mr cramer you are on one hand condemning the news media as the role of the national news media in inflaming passions that was your message subject i believe then you turn around and actually take from the santa rosa cal press democrat april p b male sex survey gay activity low title you even use such a title for the san jose mercury news the murky news now which is it are you going to comdemn national media then turn around and use it to support some position you present seems somewhat contradictory doesn t it if you can show me that the press democrat misrepresented the guttmacher institute s study do so clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re age of consent child molestation in article bu edu kane buast bu edu hot young star writes clayton cramer did you read this carefully in article c tz cpp panix com roy panix com roy radow writes it should not be assumed that we nambla agree with the specific agendas of each and every other participating group nor should it be assumed that each and every other group supports our specific goals and ideals yeah just like you shouldn t assume that aryan nations supports genocide who are they and you fooling clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re can t have it both ways news as enemy news as supporter from article qvampinnmhf darkstar ucsc edu by stephen orchid ucsc edu mr cramer you are on one hand condemning the news media as the role of the national news media in inflaming passions that was your message subject i believe then you turn around and actually take from the santa rosa cal press democrat april p b male sex survey gay activity low title you even use such a title for the san jose mercury news the murky news now which is it are you going to comdemn national media then turn around and use it to support some position you present seems somewhat contradictory doesn t it i believe that this is not contradictory on the basis that the quality of media reporting varies greatly based on the subject at hand the media has proven itself very accurate is the areas of presenting raw undisputed data one good example would be the weather page in which high and low temperatures of the previous day for a large number of locations are posting there is little evidence to show that they are in error the american media has failed us in its analysis of complex events however i m sure that we can come up with many news stories that have left us angry because so many facts have been ommitted cases that come to mind are the invasion of panama the war with iraq the disaster in waco the issues surrounding the acceptance of gays into the military the war on drugs and many others the story that you bring to light was regarding the new sex survey while i m sure that due to lazyness some of the data was ommitted from the article i would venture to guess that the data that was presented did not deviate from the survey i do however think that it would be folly to have blind faith in a single newswriter s analysis of this data in this particular case there was little analysis and the reader was left to draw his her own convictions many netters mr cramer included often forget that the american media are merely a number of businesses who s purpose in life is to make money for their owners and stockholders revenues come largely from advertisers who merely want maximum useful exposure per dollar the media is like fast food the quality of the food or of the reporting will improve only if the customers demand as such otherwise it is business as usual mark walsh walsh optilink uucp uunet optilink walsh amateur radio km xu wx k aol bigcookie aol com uscf l what me worry william m gaines i m gonna crush you andre the giant
talk.politics.misc	re clinton press release on clipper chip encryption initiative in article qvnmkinnoc life ai mit edu clinton hq campaign org the white house writes statement by the press secretary the initiative will involve the creation of new products to accelerate the development and use of advanced and secure telecommunications networks and wireless communications links a state of the art microcircuit called the clipper chip has been developed by government engineers the chip represents a new approach to encryption technology it can be used in new relatively inexpensive encryption devices that can be attached to an ordinary telephone it scrambles telephone communications using an encryption algorithm that is more powerful than many in commercial use today this new technology will help companies protect proprietary information protect the privacy of personal phone conversations and prevent unauthorized release of data transmitted electronically at the same time this technology preserves the ability of federal state and local law enforcement agencies to intercept lawfully the phone conversations of criminals while also allowing law enforcement agencies to intercept phone conversations of criminals and non criminals unlawfully no rev king we aren t spying on you i wonder how long it will take for the wrong people to put their hands on the equipment necessary to read this stuff it ll probably be as safe as weapons locked safely in evidence rooms keys numbers that will be needed by authorized government agencies to decode messages encoded by the device when the device is manufactured the two keys will be deposited separately in two key escrow data bases that will be established by the attorney general access to these keys will be limited to government officials with legal authorization to conduct a wiretap and people to whom they sell them to all it takes is corrupting the right guy no that never happens david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage richard chandler mauser terminus apexgrp com wrote from elf halcyon com elf sternberg bzzzzt thank you for playing but obviously you are not reading the material as it is presented according to the report i ve got in my hands the newsweek article which reported that to percent of the population is gay used the criteria of no heterosexual contact in the past year but at the same time the university of denver study points out quite dramatically that of all self identifying gay men have had some form of heterosexual contact in the past year i think the big mistake in that study must be that if one had had no sexual contact of any kind in the previous year they are counted as heterosexual even if they didn t intend it that way that s how the figures are being used could someone please post some date such as what questonnares where used and how they were distributed and returned mark evans evansmp uhura aston ac uk home evansmp cs aston ac uk x office
talk.politics.misc	re my gun is like my american express car in article apr grace rt cs boeing com rwojcik atc boeing com richard wojcik writes in article utkvm utk edu veal utkvm utk edu david veal writes in article apr grace rt cs boeing com rwojcik atc boeing com richard wojcik writes directly contradicted by the nejm study that compared crime in seattle and vancouver b c the non gun rates were roughly the same for both cities the difference in violent crime rates was almost totally gun related and as was not pointed out in the study but in critiques of it two seperate articles by james wright and david kopel come to mind it was pointed out that the difference was also almost entirely minority related that is the gun crime rate skyrocketed for poor minorities blacks and hispanics primarily while when you compared the white majority they were virutally identical many of the people who never read the nejm article believe that this critique is valid in fact the study explores the minority issue at length and cites studies to back up its contention that poverty not minority type is the relevant factor in violence statistics perhaps i failed to make myself clear minorities in the u s correlate with poverty this isn t good and we should address it but we shouldnt ignore that minorities and poverty do tend to go together does vancouver have a consistantly poor population drawn along racial lines if it doesn t then assumptions of being able to compare minority vs majority in both cities is questionable at best post hoc ergo propter hoc those areas implemented gun control because of the high rates true only to a certain extent take washington d c where gun control was instituted while it had crime problems true but that crime proceeded to explode afterwards similarly for new york actually i don t know whether any serious studies have been done for both cities usenet style statistical arguments are not very serious usually involving people sitting by computers with the latest world almanac figures i had heard of a study on washington dc that seemed to indicate a significant drop in gun related violence there after the laws were implemented i heard gary kleck comment on the radio that he thought the decline in suicide rates was related to the new laws but he doubted their affect on other gun related violence i have never seen a report on the study nor have any of my pro gun friends had much to say about that report remember you can t just say that crime increases indicate a failure of the laws to affect crime rates you don t know whether the rate of increase would have been different without the laws if the rate of increase over a period of several years remains unchanged or increases i think it s not a far jump to say that the laws are not effective no you can t sit down and say that things wouldn t have been worse i don t have a crystal ball and neither do you however that road leads us to a place where it is impossible to critique any action if it gets down to be it might have been worse without them then there is no valid objection which i m sure would amuse certain people to no end you don t know whether the laws prevented a threefold increase or failed to stop a two fold increase so we ve got a situation where we have several options the crime rate decreased obviously gun control worked the crime rate remained the same it would have been worse without gun control the crime rate increased perhaps the laws prevented an even bigger increase cute testing ground we ve got all responses support the proposition that gun control works the question is this did washington d c experiance an increase in its violent and or gun crime rate which was greater than the pattern indicated prior to the implemented gun control laws if it did then the suggestion that the problem the gun control laws were designed to control did not exist in their entirety prior to the gun control laws david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.misc	re welcome to police state usa in article apr rigel tamu edu mst rigel tamu edu mitchell s todd writes in article apr udel edu carroll hercules cis udel edu mark c carroll writes wait a second you re ignoring major facts here there was no attempt to simply serve a warrant the batf had a no knock warrant the initial firefight began when the batf threw concussion grenades at the building batf admits this when did the batf say this everything i ve seen from the batf from the official version to the dissident statements of batf officers who conducted the raid claims that the davidians were shooting at the agents long before they were within grenade range what i saw on tv and what you claim are two different things the davidians did not start shooting until after the batf lobbed a couple genades in the windows and started shooting themselves also if the warrant is sealed how do we know it was a no knock easy if you see federal agents in body armor with sub machine guns going in throught windows that is a no knock warrant also since the videotape shows the batf throwing grenades before the bd s etunred fire you can safely assume that they didn t ring the doorbell p vasilion p s get rid of that bandwidth clogging sig
talk.politics.misc	re median re new study out on gay percentage in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article qvb ainnmoi darkstar ucsc edu stephen orchid ucsc edu writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes from the santa rosa cal press democrat april p b male sex survey gay activity low note this contradictory title gay activity low not really the percentage of gays was low headline writers aren t noted for accuracy but you stated that this study was presented in a very accurate and dependable way this is confusing to the issue and if you read this title it implies that gay sex homosexual sex activities are low compared to the general population that they surveyed a new natonal study on male sexual behavior the most thorough examination of american men s sexual practices published since the kinsey report more than four decades ago shows about percent of the men surveyed had engaged in homosexual sex and percent considered themselves exclusively homosexual actually were either exclusively homosexual or bisexual you aren t readiing very carefully well let us quibble look at the above statement that you posted i have marked it with it states that are exclusively homosexual it states are or have engaged in homosexual sex and please not the use of adjective here homosexual sex now i stated that if we take as homosexal this is a valid viewpoint i believe that you are either you are not writing what you think you are writing you can t read or remember what you wrote
talk.politics.misc	re janet reno killed the waco children dsh eceyv ncsu edu doug holtsinger writes janet reno killed the waco children she is responsible for their deaths she should resign immediately i agree she should have understood that david koresh was a madman who would do anything against the children if he became provoked all the warning signs were there and she ignored them she provoked koresh into killing the children i think the problem here is that mrs reno strikes me after watching nightline last night as a person who is incapable of understanding or dealing with a great number of things fact is that bill and hillary had to clear the decks for their dream package of free stuff for the american people their subjects they couldn t have a wild card floating around while they and robert the fifth reich reich plan the glorious peoples democracy that wouldn t fit in with their vision of themselves or whatyou should be progressively working for after all who do you think your e working for and if a handful of peasant children have to die for the glorious vision of the year of the child in america its a small price to pay let them eat cake
talk.politics.misc	re the earth also pollutes in article dzvb b w w cellar org techie cellar org william a bacon says fury of mother nature man s contribution to environmental pollution are paltry compared to those of nature in her exceptional book trashing the planet former atomic energy commision chairman dr dixie lee ray notes based on the available data atomic energy commision hmm they would say this the earth may spew alot of substances into the atmosphere but the quality of your toxic output can easily make up for the lack of quantity furthermore the planet is a system of carbon sulfur and other chemicals which have been acting for billions of years we are but newcomers to the system we must adapt and control in order to bring about stability also two wrongs do not make a right so continuing our practices despite overwhelming data is just ignorance in non action los ninos many environmentalists attributed the drought in the u s to global warming but researchers with the national center for atmospheric research in educated and open minded environmentalists do not my opinions are not reflective of my employer disclaimer
talk.politics.misc	re some scientists do not believe in the green house effect in article vb b w w cellar org techie cellar org william a bacon says the word some sums it up alot of scientist have concluded that without a doubt global climate will is occur ring and should be dealt with by source reductions this includes making sure that the price of fossil fuels reflects their true costs my opinions are not reflective of my employer s disclaimer
talk.politics.misc	re f o cus health the big secret demon desire wright edu not a boomer writes harelb math cornell edu writes it is a matter of logic that government run systems are inefficient and the fact that the highly bureaucratized private sector system in the us is vastly more inefficient is therefore irrelevant proof that the entire private sector is vastly more inefficient good point brett it might merely be proof that basic health care markets operate differently with certain nonmarket phenomenom that the private sector can t handle well like armies vs warlords in that respect the effects on american society vs canadian european society might also be different it is for example of no relevance that blue cross of massachusetts employs people more than are employed in all of canada s health programs which insure times as many people blue cross is the government health insurance provider good point again blue cross in the u s is quite convoluted compared to the canadian and german insurance funds which have a minimal organization to coordinate it if anything bureaucracy now needs to be built up in canada to combat fraud such as americans crossing the border individually to use insurance cards borrowed from friends and relatives or using phony domestic addresses or fraud rings stealing them in blocks our private practices are now recording insurance account numbers both public insurance and private insurance which most have never bothered to do before on assumption of an honour system gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
talk.politics.misc	re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article qumqkinnq i senator bedfellow mit edu wdstarr athena mit edu william december starr writes ca politics omitted from the distribution line because my site s news posting software doesn t believe in it and refuses to try to post to it i sure hope that matt also reads either a f r l or t p m saw it in t p m thanks in article c qk t qk voder nsc com matt galaxy nsc com matt freivald x said i like to call the form of government that i advocate fractal federalism with fractal federalism there is a representative national government that has only certain limited powers to do what is absolutely necessary at that level next there are the state governments again with only absolutely necessary powers onward to counties cities townships districts and neighborhoods the lowest read most local levels are the ones that have the most power over individuals day to day lives which is good because that is the level where individuals have the most voice you know if you take all this to its logical conclusion doesn t it seem that the real lowest level the level where individuals have the most voice is that of the single individuals themselves why have you omitted that level from your model yes and the individual is not omitted i just didn t fully articulate the principles of fractal federalism all government powers derive from the people each level can receive a new power from the level below through the amendment process where a true consensus say a majority writes that power into the constitution of the level above in the case of the lowest level an amendement is passed by a majority vote in the case of higher levels it must be passed by of the legislatures we can of course haggle about the specifics of true consensus when we hold our constitutional convention once a power has been granted it may be exercised by the legislature powers not in the original constitutions must percolate upward starting from the individual the ratification process for the original constitutions should involve consensus and not simply a plurality or majority granting a right in a constitution is of course the same as empowering the government at that level to restrict the activities of the governments at the lower levels so it operates in the same way as the amendment process again that crazy resemblance to the supposed but not actual u s government structure this government structure is a very frustrating one for those people read liberals who would like to have concentrated power to use the government to force people to do good a difficult to define word and one that it is difficult to reach a consensus on it is also a frustrating structure for those who want to use the government to dictate personal behavior read big government conservatives i personally would rather see those types of people frustrated than the incredible erosion of liberty both civil and economic that is going on now this is imho a good government stucture for those who see the role of government as the protection of individual liberties while still recognizing that individuals need to have some influence in the type of community that they live in a free market works on government not just economics succesful ideas propogate unsuccessful ideas die what is your definition of a successful idea or a successful government one which maintains peace liberty and the opportunity for happiness for its people while working within the realities of human nature you do bring up the point intentional or not that a lasting idea is by no means necessarily a successful idea i believe that fractal federalism would at least bring many ideas to light and the people would have the opportunity to democratically choose between good ideas and bad ideas if the docialists er i mean democrats are right and government activism fosters a prosperous people they will have a plethora of local opportunities to check their thesis if libertopia is possible it will arise if a balanced conservative republic is democratically received as the best level of government activity it will become clear to the people that it is best as far as set the moral tone is concerned if a community does not collectively want to put up with prostitution going on in front of their kids why should they have to if a community does not want to see proliferation of drugs among their kids why should they have to for the same reason that they have to put up with a church operating right out in the open where their kids can see it and with the owner of the house across the street flying an american flag right out there in the open every day in front of their kids it s called freedom if they don t like the ideas to which their kids are exposed they can try to educate and persuade their kids as to why the things that they re seeing other people doing are wrong or bad right and people would not rescind any freedoms read empower the government except through the amendment process that is how the federal government is supposed to work now but the supreme soviet er i mean the supreme court put a stop to that republican government nonsense in my hypothetical government if there were a constitutional provision empowering the government to regulate churches the government whatever level we are talking about could indeed ban churches the constitutional provision would be invalid if a higher level had a constitutional provision protecting free exercise of religion the uppermost constitution is still the supreme law of the land i find it interesting that you applaud the idea of free market competition among various ideas and yet support the right of he majority in a community to suppress ideas which they don t like it is a matter of individuals being able to control their own associations and environment not a matter of suppression of ideas one dilemma of the human condition is that individuals need liberty and they also need to have some control over their environment in my fractal federalism government certain rights are protected by the constitutions other rights are protected simply because the government has not been empowered to infringe upon them when a consensus is reached that the government should have a certain power then freedom is infringed upon this cannot be avoided murder statutes infringe upon freedom but i think that the consensus of the american people is that murder statutes are a good idea i am sure that many parents believe that they have a right to control the environment that their children live in people feel that they have a right to sleep peacefully at night thus there are noise ordinances there are zoning laws that keep businesses from overrunning residential neighborhoods i do not view these as bad things certainly some individual instances are bad but the concept is not necessarily bad i view them as the people in a community having some control over the type of community that they live in i see the alternative as near anarchy like i said in another post if you can come up with a scenario where an individual can do something truly autonomously with absolutely zero effect on anyone else then no individual or government has the right to restrict that activity there are simply not very many behaviors that fit into the category of the truly autonomous so the whole thing becomes an issue of one individual or group having power over another individual or group i think that the fractal federalism approach is a sound if not ideal approach to limiting this restrictive power the libertarian scenario degenerates to might makes right and the system we have right now is one of lawyers abusing natural rights philosophy to decide what powers the government should have by subverting the democratic process though the supreme court the problem with the egalitarian view is that it tries to deny the fundamental dilemma of democratic government the people have a right to exercise a voice in their community yet individuals have the right to be left to themselves this is a serious dilemma precisely because there is not much that takes place in a vacuum oddly enough if what you say is taken literally there is little or no conflict the people do indeed have a right to exercise a voice where voice equals persuasive speech in their communities it s only when they somehow get the idea into their heads that they also have a right to dictate behavior in their communities that the trouble begins i think i answered this above already but let me expand a little more with an example if i stand naked in front of your house and masturbate in front of your children while they play in your libertarian small l scenario the only recourse you have is to yell at me autonomous is a value judgement of the time it is not a scientific reality with a clear definition exactly who would you empower to make that value judgement stuff deleted certainly not the only cause mike but people in a local neighborhood should have a voice in what goes on in that neighborhood to deny this is to create another concentrated centralized power to keep the locality from abusing its power in essence using a pit bull to keep a toy poodle from biting your leg chances are the pit bull is going to turn on you some day and you have much less defense against it than you do against the toy poodle the argument here appears to be that tyranny of the individual by the local majority is superior to having the federal government have and exercise the power to protect the individual from his neighbors because that federal government will eventually and inevitably become corrupt and use its power to tyrannize everyone okay there s a lot of truth in that certainly we re seeing something like that happening in the united states today though it s unclear that he progression here matches the model since our beloved and benign federal government hasn t ever shown much enthusiasm for the idea of protecting any individuals lots of people are long on complaints and short on practical solutions although i am pessimistic that my idea will ever bear fruit i am at least trying to be long on solutions also i am truly interested if you have any improvements to make on my ideas i call them my ideas but they all come from an average guy reading of the u s constitution without benefit of the indoctrination of constitutional law academia but i have to say that i think that your solution is at least just as bad trading the yoke of federal tyranny for the yoke of local tyranny doesn t cheer me up much i think i d prefer to put my faith in a larger government that at least might protect the individual from time to time rather than place it in local mob rule admittedly it s the lesser of two evils and it s not less by very much and they re both pretty damn evil sorry the confusion was my fault when i said that fractal federalism resembles the u s constitution i meant it and thought it was pretty clear i should have more clearly explained that the ultimate derivation of government power is from the consensus of the people although not the consent of every individual a practical observation not a moral judgement it is certainly better than having all government power derive from nine lawyers which is the situation we have now that is why i think the supreme court should be a jury court with a different jury for each case it is certainly not perfect no philosophy of government is but do you still find it a repugnant idea if so what is your solution ideally everyone would leave everyone else alone and no government coercive power of any kind would be necessary this will never work because people are different and by their nature they will always want to force their views on others if this were not the case nobody would try to force their view that murder is wrong on anyone else this is true the question is what we you going to do about it your proposed solution seems to actually encourage these bozos to lord it over their victims i think that you misunderstood the structure of the form of government i advocate and it was my fault for not being more clear oh and by the way liborgalism thinking is irrelevant integrity is irrelevant free speech is irrelevant private property is irrelevant personal responsibility is irrelevant conservativism is futile you will be assimilated how much would freedom of speech or private property rights be respected in a community in which the majority was allowed to make all the rules that man s saying things in public that i don t want my children exposed to let s shut him up those homos are living together and fornicating in that house over there let s run em outta town the majority does not make the rules the majority or possibly a plurality simply elects representatives to exercise limited government powers those limited government powers derive from a large consensus not a simple majority and the federal government in my scenario still has the power to protect freedoms william december starr wdstarr athena mit edu matt freivald liborgalism thinking is irrelevant integrity is irrelevant free speech is irrelevant private property is irrelevant personal responsibility is irrelevant conservativism is futile you will be assimilated these are my opinions only and not those of my employer
talk.politics.misc	re welcome to police state usa in article r tvhinnh s ctron news ctron com smith ctron com writes in article c rusq m m news cso uiuc edu azoghlin uxa cso uiuc edu very old freshman vof writes critisism is too easy what solutions do people have that would have been better than what the fbi had been doing for the last few months for starters they could have gone on waiting and negotiating the davidians weren t going anywhere and their supplies had to be limited large perhaps but limited if they had simply fired the compound by themselves without gov t tanks smashing down their walls then at least the gov t would not be guilty of having again used an inappropriate level of force and would have been able to use the meantime to continue to pressure and negotiate no they would not have looked good on the news in six months or a year but they sure as hell don t look very good now true today s boston globe interviewed a former unification church leader who is now a consultant on cults he said the fbi s approach was totally wrong he said they should have tried to break down the bd s loyalty to koresh through psychological means koresh s whole theology was based on an approaching confrontation with the forces of evil in the world and a seige mentality based on this the feds played into his hands perfectly by surrounding the compound with tanks and playing loud rock music and glaring lights at them they strongly reinforced koresh s message that the outside world was evil and threatening he said instead they should have set up a picnic atmosphere and acted inviting and friendly if they broadcast anything over pa systems it should have been loving relatives reflecting on pleasant events from the cult members childhoods the idea is to make the outside world and surrender seem like a pleasant desirable alternative interesting comments peter
talk.politics.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened in prijat cs uofs edu bill triangle cs uofs edu bill gunshannon writes there is no such thing as non toxic tear gas tear gas is non breathable remaining in it s presence will cause nausea and vomiting followed eventually by siezures and death did the fbi know the physical health of all the people they exposed any potential heart problems among the b d s they certainly knew that there were pregnant women in there plus children i could not believe when they said that the gassing was an attempt to save the children yesterday i can t think of a much worse sort of child abuse that pouring tear gas into a building have you ever seen a tear gas canister tear gas is produced by burning a chemical in the can the fumes produced are tear gas the canister has a warning printed on the side of it contact with flamable material can result in fire now how many of these canisters did they throw inside a building they admited was a fire trap i have heard two things recently explaining this they pumped the gas into the building from outside via some sort of pipe rather than by canister the sort of tear gas they are using was described as some sort of powdery material that sticks to things kind of like a powder cloud and once again these are government lacky explainations and since government stories always change none or all of the information might not be true this whole thing was a case of over reaction by the officials at every step i hope it is thoroughly investigated and the responsible parties are held accountable but that is highly unlikely when you figure they are going to be investigating themselves or better yet the texas rangers will be investigating which is probably worse than the fbi or atf investigating itself
talk.politics.misc	re waco burnout in article apr hemlock cray com rja mahogany cray com russ anderson writes authorities are saying that branch davidian members were seen starting the fire it looks like there will no witnesses to dispute that claim the fbi says that some of the survivors claim to have seen the leaders of the cult talking about setting a fire and to have smelt kerosene i assume this will come out at any trial that occurs as a result of these events ed ed wente llnl gov
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article apr romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes i wouldn t worry too much about it though we are starting to find out how politically impotent homosexuals really are non relevant stuff deleted and coming this saturday they are going to wind up with tremendous egg on their face when i submit no more than perhaps queers will show up in washington while they are promising crowds in the millions and most of the ones who will be there will look like act up and queer nation not the guy working in the next cubicle as if that s really going to play in middle america how wrong you will be i participated in the last national march on washington mow for lesgaybi rights oct with a turnout of about people and we didn t have alot pissing us off at the time the big issue was the aids crisis but we weren t being slapped around quite as bad as we are now this time its aids and equal rights and the military squabble and this mow has been in the planning for years whereas the last one was pulled together in a relatively short time the last mow was the largest ever on d c and you can bet we are going to exceed that by a long shot i truly believe we will exceed the million goal the mow committee has always had set for this event todd allyn houts email t houts uiuc edu or houts zelda ehs uiuc edu message of the day days til mow
talk.politics.misc	re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article c s gz ze apollo hp com nelson p apollo hp com peter nelson writes all human communities impose their values on individuals that s virtually an operational definition of one if you can find an example of a human community that doesn t then you have discovered a new phenomenon in nature it s pointless asking whether communities should do this they do do this it s like asking whether a leopard should have spots it just evolved that way human communities evolved in both the biological and social senses of evolve to have this characteristic you can debate whether some particular matter should be left up to the individual or not this is part of the above process of evolution but it is the nature of a human community to impose its values on individuals and you will not find a single counterexample in nature peter at all times in human history people have killed and stolen from one another if you can find an example of where this hasn t happened in history then you have discovered a new phenomenon in nature it is pointless asking whether people should do this they do do this it has just evolved that way humans have evolved to have this characteristivc you can debate whether this should be particular matter should be left up to the individual or not but it is the nature of humans to kill and steal from others and you will not find a single counterexample of a society without these types in nature please find a better argument than that s the way it has always been child mortality has always been yet we find it in our hearts to have made an attempt to change that john viveiros jviv chevron com chevron usa standard disclaimer applies midland tx
talk.politics.misc	re are americans sexually repressed in article jason apr ab larc nasa gov jason c austin j c austin larc nasa gov writes in article apr sun urz uni heidelberg de gsmith lauren iwr uni heidelberg de gene w smith writes recent studies have been all over the map so have less recent studies none can be said to have shown anything to within an accuracy of of as you claim here this study is from the battelle human affairs research centers in seattle and was a hot topic in the news last week the study questioned at random men in a face to face interview this is not a studies but a study other studies including the just published janus report give very different figures the janus report figures are not too different than kinsey homosexual men and bisexual men earlier studies have been all over the map also i think he s talking about kinsey who came up with the statistic used heavily by gay groups to push their political agenda kinsey s work has often been accused of lacking a strong scientific backbone don t be stupid the kinsey report is one study so it can t be all over the map all by itself other studies including the battelle one have also been criticed as far as agendas go this is really chutzpah your agenda is obvious gene ward smith brahms gang iwr ruprecht karls university gsmith kalliope iwr uni heidelberg de
talk.politics.misc	re janet reno killed the waco children in article c sno h p boi hp com dianem boi hp com diane mathews writes in article apr ncsu edu dsh eceyv ncsu edu doug holtsinger writes janet reno killed the waco children she is responsible for their deaths she should resign immediately she should have aside from the fact that i disagree w you she did offer to resign and the president rejected the offer she was willing to take responsibility and which is a helluva lot more than any republican attorney general ever did btw why all the crocodile tears over wasting a few religious nuts who wanted to be wasted anyway we just got back from wasting a few hundred thousand religious nuts over in the middle east and everybody cheered mike
talk.politics.misc	re to be or not to be a disaster in article qs aninnin charnel ecst csuchico edu dyoung ecst csuchico edu douglas young writes you should face the facts love canal was not and is not an environmental disaster nor even a problem nor is times beach and tmi and acid rain killing trees and not a problem would you move to three mile island i would imagine there is some cheap property available no because i don t like the weather back east however it would bother me not one bit to live in an equivalent area here by the way do you know what the extra exposure to radiation from tmi was the naturally occurring catastrophic events disasters that destroy property ie hurricanes tornados earthquakes do not usually leave toxic wastes that prevent people from re building their lives there the man made disasters oil spills toxic dumping radioactive waste dispersions cause death and make an area unliveable far beyond the initial event o k in the u s tell me about some of these deaths and some of these unliveable areas oh and if you manage to find some of these unliveable areas tell me what percentage of the total us land area they are hint the total waste produced by all nuclear reactors in the us can be safely stored in the area of three footbal fields there are actually people that still believe love canal was some kind of environmental disaster weird eh these opinions are mine and you can t have em but i ll rent em cheap
talk.politics.misc	waco and panama i haven t recognized any names from previous discussions but i do notice that there are a few who blame clinton for the actions of the batf in waco unless you felt the same way about what we did under bush s direct command in panama it s just partisan whining which is what i expect most of it to be i can see no way to condemn one and not the other but i m sure some limbot will tell me how killing thousands of panamanian civilians to serve an arrest warrant is much better than allowing religious fanatics to commit suicide following a botched attempt by the batf to serve a search warrant john viveiros jviv chevron com chevron usa standard disclaimer applies midland tx
talk.politics.misc	re median re new study out on gay percentage on apr gmt gary piatt observed first the median does not imply that half of the men are above and half below it simply means that is the mid point between the maximum number of partners and the minimum which is most likely zero actually the median is defined as the th percentile if the median number of sexual partners for men is it means that at least of men have had or fewer sexual partners and at least of men have had or more sexual partners question what is of a sexual partner to confuse matters more take the following data set the mean arithmetic average of the above set of numbers is the sample standard deviation is the mode is the median is michael d adams starowl a i rahul net enterprise alabama it s a strange quirk but i hardly ever sing along with people who tie me up mork
talk.politics.misc	re using california s antidiscrimination the sort of case i predicted in article apr cs nott ac uk eczcaw mips nott ac uk a wainwright writes clayton babe please define the word molest are you using a legal term or a proper dictionary term molest as far as i can remember means to do damage to person s my mate mike was lured into a woman s parlour when he was is that molestation a number of my friends straight lost their virginity before that were they molested they told me that they thoroughly enjoyed the experience i see no damage please stop pushing your objective morality on others if you push people won t fall over and say ye gads you re right they ll just push back have you signed up for that logic course yet yep and the child that tree frog johnson adbucted for months reportedly enjoyed her experiences as well they trained her using food as an fbi agent reported on his disciplinary action for beating up tree frog when you see a year old baby cheerfully tell you she wants a peanut butter sandwich and she ll suck your pee pee you lose control you are quite sick there are actually people that still believe love canal was some kind of environmental disaster weird eh these opinions are mine and you can t have em but i ll rent em cheap
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article apr cs nott ac uk eczcaw mips nott ac uk a wainwright writes i guess that you are a person who dislikes contact with people of ethnic minority however your argument again falls flat on its face you state that you under an anti discrimination bill would be forced to associate with others homosexuals i assume against your will how do you know that you do not associate with them now except they may be closeted would you like to change your argument to read forced to associate with truthfully homosexual people against my will you have no proof that anyone you now know may not be homosexual and this punches a large hole in your argument is it your belief that a homosexual comes in only one flavour sic and that is the camp mincing type prove it you cannot you are quite incoherent perhaps you should be forced to associate with some people against your will i think a nice large group of skinheads in a locked basement for hours will wonderfully educate you after all as you don t believe in freedom of asscoiation you can t complain can you bloody turdlet there are actually people that still believe love canal was some kind of environmental disaster weird eh these opinions are mine and you can t have em but i ll rent em cheap
talk.politics.misc	re top ten excuses for slick willie s record setting disapproval rati in article apr dg rtp dg com crosmun crosmun rtp dg com william crosmun writes on the other hand rush made an interesting point the democrats ran one of their best campaigns in years against a pathetic republican and a paranoiac and still only pulled of the vote lost seats in the house and gained seats in the senate might be pretty interesting clueless of the world take heart of the electorate is willing to vote for a pathetic republican and a paranoiac jmc
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in apr romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes some chump at brandeis i mean how many people actually care how many people are gay as long as you know how to find avoid them if you want to i don t if you don t care why was so much effort put into promoting the lie because it was important to scare politicians into obedience i wouldn t worry too much about it though we are starting to find out how politically impotent homosexuals really are the colorado boycott has fizzled slick willie was effectively prevented from implementing his military policy wrt homosexuals by members of his own party this new study casts a large shadow of doubt on their claims of large numbers and coming this saturday they are going to wind up with tremendous egg on their face when i submit no more than perhaps queers will show up in washington while they are promising crowds in the millions and most of the ones who will be there will look like act up and queer nation not the guy working in the next cubicle as if that s really going to play in middle america sigh you re absolutely right we have no political power whatsoever therefore we should be oppressed and ignored and denigrated right i certainly hope you don t have an so sir because if she heard how disparaging you are towards political minorities and if she had any shred of self respect she d be out the door pretty soon they will find themselves retreating back into the closet where they belong don t count on it sweetheart the views expressed herein are theodore a kaldis my own only do you seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe that a major university rutgers remus rutgers edu kaldis as this would hold such views certainly not most major universities wouldn t touch views that display the brainpower and the perspective of a mayfly with a ten foot pole drewcifer p s incidentally i think even mayflies could come up with more enlightenment than the above bullshit evolve a bit will you bi andrew d simchik schnopia as b uhura cc rochester edu treewater words weren t made for cowards happy rhodes
talk.politics.misc	re welcome to police state usa in article c si g hx dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes in article apr cc usu edu slp k cc usu edu writes the batf should have left at the beginning they should have looked at koresh s personality instead they thought they have guns we have bigger guns let s go get em they botched it from day one they shouldn t have been there in the first place the above conveniently ignores the murder of four batf agents by the branch davidians in an unprovoked ambush as you re no doubt aware phill there are probably five or six different mutually contradictory versions of the events in waco on feb all of which are from reputable news sources ranging the the associated press to time to newsweek some of the earliest reports issued by the ap were not at all flattering the to batf and produced some question as to who fired first now for all i know you were there to witness it but i kind of doubt that any government that allows tinpot dictators to set up shop and declare a private state has drifted into anarchy there are laws to control the ownership of guns and the batf had good reason to beleive that they were being violated they set out to obtain a legal warrant and attempted to serve it only to be met with gunfire when they rang the doorbell the batf in a letter they ve been sending out to people says both that they were ambushed because they lost the element of surprise and that they went up and knocked on the door and had it slammed in their faces it strikes me as kind of strange to rely on surprise to serve a warrant by knocking on the door there are at least questions that need to be answered the paranoid assertion that the batf fired first in an unprovoked assault assumes that the batf were on a death wish this paranoid assertation was made by witnesses to the original assault who stated that the batf initiated hostilities by throwing concussion grenades and reported by the associated press had they expected the b d to be anything other than peacefull citizens who would accept a search authorized by a court they would have turned up in a tank and broken the door down on day one phill the batf were in a firefight with the bd for forty five minutes i find it hard to believe that if they were expecting peaceful citizens they wouldn t have shown up in live stock trailers and would have retreated immediately if they were expecting peacful citizens why show up with over a hundred officers some of which clearly visible on video to be carrying sub machineguns and national guard helicopters i don t know who did what but as i said there are questions that need to be answered david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.misc	rush joke i heard the other day that rush has gotten together with tammy faye baker they were crawling in bed the other night and rush s feet brushed up against tammy s legs god your feet are cold she said rush looked back at here and said tammy honey i told you when we re alone you can just call me rush ba dump bump pishhhhh bob
talk.politics.misc	re employment was re why not concentrate on child molesters wow i hadn t realized how venomous this was getting be careful here the problem isn t the rich but the values and the systems that make the rich rich things are designed in such a way that in order to go with the system and make money everything else we care about goes to shit i have to constantly remind myself that the goal of human society is not to make money money doesn t make us happy it just prevents certain things making us more unhappy therefore don t shoot the rich shoot the conservatives drewcifer bi andrew d simchik schnopia as b uhura cc rochester edu treewater words weren t made for cowards happy rhodes
talk.politics.misc	re are americans sexually repressed in article qunlginnfdr titan ucs umass edu quilty titan ucs umass edu lulu of the lotus eaters writes i think he s talking about kinsey who came up with the statistic used heavily by gay groups to push their political agenda kinsey s work has often been accused of lacking a strong scientific backbone i really must defend my man alfred not that this poster was really to be taken seriously since the deletiae are a phobe s rants but still some who aren t such phobes mistakenly criticize my man you really need to be able to support yourself without insults the article you re calling rants actually had absolutely none of my opinions and was only a series of factual statements jason c austin j c austin larc nasa gov
talk.politics.misc	re welcome to police state usa in article c rusq m m news cso uiuc edu azoghlin uxa cso uiuc edu very old freshman vof writes critisism is too easy what solutions do people have that would have been better than what the fbi had been doing for the last few months withdraw leave the people in the compund to lead their lives as they choose prosecute the baft agents for murder brandon hutchison university of canterbury christchurch new zealand
talk.politics.misc	re nc vs hunt marine gay bashing in wilmington nc verdict in ursa bear com halat panther bears jim halat writes in article apr bsu ucs cmmiller leo bsuvc bsu edu writes how about the fact that you have a bunch of cops putting their lives on the line day in and day out who are afraid as hell of a large black guy that took a large amount of punishment and refused submit oh yeah did you watc h the start of the video when king got up out of his prone postion and charge the cops sorry the video cuts both was when you sit and watch it start to even if rodney king had come out of that car waving a gun and they managed to disarm him the police still had no right right to beat him senseless the way they did once he was on the ground if they can t handle their jobs they should be relieved of them they police did not beat king when he was on the ground they beat him when he was on his knees trying to get back up if you had watche d the entire video you would have seen this additionally anna quindlan of the new york times said it best paraphrase many people bring up what happened before what is shown on the tape here s what came before the s ronald reagan george bush racism if you think this is true much less relevant than you are in sadder shape than i thought mob rule isn t any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain t charity if you are using someone else s money wilson s theory of relativity if you go back far enough we re all related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
talk.politics.misc	re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate pjs tijc uucp paul schmidt writes i want to know that i have a competent doctor when i am ill government regulations have driven up costs and decreased quality by providing a monopoly for licensed m d s many procedures could be performed by qualified nurses but doctors are forced to do them the common cold must be diagnosed by a licensed doctor who is the only one who is allowed to write a perscription doctor s are spending much of their time on such mundane cases that they cannot have the time to spend on the really tough cases this results in higher cost lower quality medical care here in georgia the state legislature in accidentally passed a law lobbied for by opthamologists prohibiting anyone but a licensed md from giving shots they were trying to limit optometrists from competing with them they inadvertantly forbade nurses emts dentists and tattoo artists from piercing the skin probably diabetics too the secretary of state s office announced on june th that they wouldn t enforce it pending reconsideration in the legislature in the hassle over the state flag i heard nothing about repealing it cutter gloster via mind org chris all jobs are easy to the person who doesn t have to do them holt s law
talk.politics.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened in article c scqi by apollo hp com goykhman apollo hp com red herring writes in article bskendigc rcbg azp netcom com bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes they used a tank to knock a hole in the wall and they released non toxic non flammable tear gas into the building non toxic tear gas do you know what tear gas is i do once upon a time i happened to be in a room when someone threw a tear gas grenade in that was supposed to be a joke the sensation was incredible i felt my eyes and nostrils were being torn apart i remember us a bunch of young men in our early s running out like a herd of wild animals knocking down the door and jumping out of the windows thank g d we were on the first floor i can t imagine this kind of stuff being used against children for them the worst effect might not be the physical effects so much as the psychological effect of being incapacitated without fully understanding the cause many years ago i was accidentally exposed to a tiny dose of tear gas it was in athens on the street leading to the american embassy there d been a march that had been broken up with tear gas i must have stumbled into a remaining patch of gas the next day aside from the tears feeling sick to my stomach etc the really horrible psychological effect was that of suddenly falling to pieces and not knowing why it had happened i was horrified and wondered what disease or other health problem i had i didn t find out about the march and the tear gas till hours later i can imagine how horribly disorienting this might be to very young children suddenly crying uncontrollably and feeling sick weak and out of control of your body and not knowing the cause this gives us a chance to try the gas of peace yeah right bob ingria
talk.politics.misc	re waco survivors april in article c sira pew hawnews watson ibm com strom watson ibm com rob strom writes in article c segz mwr dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes in order to reject the word of the fbi and batf it is neccessary to beleive the words of a man who has just murdered children and ordered the suicide murder of his other followers according to the account given the batf attempted to serve a warrant upon koresh at the ranch and were met by gunfire in a deliberate attempt to murder them the koresh gun supporter claim that the batf started shooting simply does not stand up if the aft had gone there to start shooting they would have gone with heavier grade weaponry than standard issue handguns for all practical purposes they were unarmed the b d followers had automatic weapons the people who do not want gun control must obviously discount the entire government story this is simply rationalisation it is not enough for them to simply dismiss the government as incompetent that would require them to come up with a solution themselves instead they have to come up with a government conspiracy theory whereby the government decided to set out to murder people just to set up some sort of scare to alow them to get gun control legislation through i must object to the characterization of those opposed to the government s handling of the waco situation as gun supporters your argument tries to paint the batf critics as right wing gun nuts and just mixes up two issues i am one of the batf fbi critics and yet i am a liberal and just as anti gun as you are i just happen to believe that everyone has civil rights even religious crazies they re all human beings not some nest of wasps that you re trying to exterminate the batf created the crisis situation by the way they handled the original raid it was well known that koresh regularly went jogging outside his property he could have been served with a search warrant then he could have been arrested if he had refused to comply instead officers armed with grenades invaded the property this escalated into a shooting war with tragic deaths on both sides those were the first two mistakes the bad judgment of asking for a no knock warrant and the bad and probably illegal way the already unwise warrant was served at this point the situation escalated to where it was described as an armed standoff and a hostage crisis that s when the government started covering their traces sealing the warrant revising their reported history of the incident etc things were already building up to disaster now the government could have simply closed the supply routes and waited but according to janet reno that option had never been seriously considered so supposedly because the agents were frustrated and fatigued and because there supposedly were no backups they felt they had to go in yes the govt handled it in the rambo hollywood type style with extreeme machismo perhaps thats not the way to handle it it is a completely different thing to start asserting as many have done that the government is primarily to blame the comparisons with the nazis in particular are purely gratuitous since you have provided a constructive opinion on the issue your post desreves to be taken seriously peter nelson also made some very good points about how a low key approach might have been more effective the point is though that you learn through mistakes the govt played the wrong card and lost thats not a big deal they had had four guys murdered at the begining and maybee they just were not prepared for wuite this situation who could be if the same thing were to happen all over again we might perhaps be able to castigate the govt if they used the same tactics and failed in the same way as it is i can t say that i would not have made the same mistake maybee i wouldn t because i don t as a rule go in for a confrontational situation if i can avoid it maybee i would because with all those press about its very difficult not to try the macho stuff the fbi had information from within the compound we had no access to they may have calculated that the b d followers resolve was cracking based on their listening devices within the compound they knew that koresh had chickened out of one suicide attempt this may have been the reason why they considered that fear might have been a weapon for breaking his resolve again in panama they had used the heavy rock music to great effect during bush s invasion funny that few of the koresh supporters and appologists complain much about the death of several thousand pananmanian civilians while the us govt attempted to arrest their former ally and please let s not turn this into a pro gun vs anti gun discussion anti gun people do not believe that gun owners deserve to get frontally assaulted by armed government agents and koresh s civil rights exist whether his guns were legal illegal illegal but should have been legal or whatever koresh negated his civil rights the minute his followers fired on the police helicopter no matter whether the warrant was or was not technically valid the guys who were carrying it out thought that it was thus the assault on them was completely inexcusable no matter what rationalisation people might wish to employ of course we have to consider the guns issue that is the whole core of the question everything else is a diversion phill hallam baker
talk.politics.misc	re race and violence in article mvpc rb h d f netcom com mvp netcom com mike van pelt says there is something terribly wrong however with a culture which condemns attacks and all too often kills any of its members who attempt to get an education my mother is an elementary school teacher and she tells me that she and her african american collegues are frustrated to tears by the fact that any african american child who attempts to do well in school and get an education is accused by his her peers of trying to be white and is beaten bullied and tormented by them it goes beyond each passing grade on a test earning a beating in my mother s school one of the most promising young students who happened to be african american had her throat cut by one of these young thugs you know you have a point here but don t stop with african americans when i was in high school in the early s on various occasions i had knives pulled on me had friends who were stabbed and i was beaten up repeatedly by those that couldn t accept me as different and don t let the teachers off the hook either on many many occasions there were teachers that either resented me or were too scared out of their wits by the bullies to even stop the people who attacked me and they would just watch quietly all of this was in a nice white middle class high school in fact we were so nice and white that we made sure that the one black kid in my class was unable to go to the prom with his white girlfriend this isn t a race thing it s the way public schools seem to be run i d hate to be in high school right now at least i didn t have to deal with guns just the roving psycho drug dorks and the jocks without a future but with plenty of testosterone i d separate everyone who wants to learn from these assholes but hey the valuelessness of learning and glorification of jocks is an american tradition you think anything is going to change if you have kids take em out of the public school system and educate them yourself that s what i ll do if i ever have them i wouldn t wish what i went through upon any kid maybe on some of their parents though scott
talk.politics.misc	re worshipping the constitution was my gun is papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca paul prescod said sorry reading this newsgroup i can t help but get the impression of frothing at the mouth lunatics i get a lot of snip c constitution worshiping it s right because it s in the constitution as if the constitution wasn t framed by men centuries ago in a totally different world we have three options with respect to the constitution abide by it duly amend it abandon those parts of which a majority disapproves of course since the whole point of the constitution is to restrain the will of the majority and since even in unfettered democracy we have nothing to fear from minorities amounts to abandoning the constitution altogether which will it be mark pundurs any resemblance between my opinions and those of wolfram research inc is purely coincidental
talk.politics.misc	re welcome to police state usa in article veal utkvm utk edu veal utkvm utk edu david veal writes in article c si g hx dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes any government that allows tinpot dictators to set up shop and declare a private state has drifted into anarchy there are laws to control the ownership of guns and the batf had good reason to beleive that they were being violated they set out to obtain a legal warrant and attempted to serve it only to be met with gunfire when they rang the doorbell the batf in a letter they ve been sending out to people says both that they were ambushed because they lost the element of surprise and that they went up and knocked on the door and had it slammed in their faces it strikes me as kind of strange to rely on surprise to serve a warrant by knocking on the door presumably the b d did not mount a continuous state of alert with gunmen ready to fire on people who casually walked up to ring the doorbell once inside the building the batf would have been in control trained police officers are a match to any bunch of bozos playing at soldiers had they expected the b d to be anything other than peacefull citizens who would accept a search authorized by a court they would have turned up in a tank and broken the door down on day one phill the batf were in a firefight with the bd for forty five minutes i find it hard to believe that if they were expecting peaceful citizens they wouldn t have shown up in live stock trailers and would have retreated immediately not a smart move unless meant to be part of the surprize cover even so the narrow opening of the trucks simply was not a good idea a side opening truck would have been much better more like a covered waggon if they were expecting peacful citizens why show up with over a hundred officers some of which clearly visible on video to be carrying sub machineguns and national guard helicopters sounds just about right to me its the minimum amount of force that i would consider necessary to serve a warrant on the talk politics guns annual dinner michael hesseltine ordered the use of over crack troops including members of the parachute regiment to remove approx hippy peace protestors on a site where they wanted to install cruise missiles he even turned up in a flack jacket to monitor the proceedings just about the most dangerous tool the women possesed was a tin opener that single action probably cost him the position as prime minister one of the elders of my church got arrested in that heroic action by the forces of toryism hesseltine ever after was something of a national joke phill hallam baker
talk.politics.misc	re waco survivors april in article c t u vc dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes the point is though that you learn through mistakes the govt played the wrong card and lost thats not a big deal they had had four guys murdered at the begining and maybee they just were not prepared for wuite this situation who could be if the same thing were to happen all over again we might perhaps be able to castigate the govt if they used the same tactics and failed in the same way as it is i can t say that i would not have made the same mistake maybee i wouldn t because i don t as a rule go in for a confrontational situation if i can avoid it maybee i would because with all those press about its very difficult not to try the macho stuff my god how many chances do they get operation move philedelphia early s black panthers chicago etc etc hell we get heavily armed millenial cults out west every couple of years do with have to start a cascade of times the feds have been in situations like this dave griffith information resources university of chicago biological sciences division dave delphi bsd uchicago edu brain damage was what we were after the chromosome damage was just gravy
talk.politics.misc	re welcome to police state usa in article apr rigel tamu edu mst rigel tamu edu mitchell s todd writes xref dscomsa alt activism talk politics misc in article apr udel edu carroll hercules cis udel edu mark c carroll writes wait a second you re ignoring major facts here there was no attempt to simply serve a warrant the batf had a no knock warrant the initial firefight began when the batf threw concussion grenades at the building batf admits this when did the batf say this everything i ve seen from the batf from the official version to the dissident statements of batf officers who conducted the raid claims that the davidians were shooting at the agents long before they were within grenade range also if the warrant is sealed how do we know it was a no knock hey don t confuse these guys with facts dude you might break some beautiful illusions of course by batf admits this they mean that the batf did not deny some post by a pro koresh gun lobby person some time back if anyone wants to understand the paranoid mindset of koresh i offer you talk politics guns there you can dredge the sewers of minds so hung up on power and ego trips that they bend reality arround their own particular set of beleifs i long ago gave up arguing the case for arms control directly instead i invite people to ask themselves would you want to be in a room full of the occupants of talk politics guns their personal armouries and attempt to enter a discussion with them phill hallam baker
talk.politics.misc	re we re from the government and we re here to help you in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes in article apr infonode ingr com albeaj jima b d ingr com jim albea writes gee jim if you ll check the constitution you ll find in order to promote the general welfare do ordain and establish this constitution i m surprised you missed it it s right there in the first paragraph i would have thought you would have made it at least through the preamble you almost got it right and it was a good try but you should follow your own advice the preamble to the constitution does read as you have quoted but let us not forget that after all it is only the preamble it is not a binding part of the constitution and carries no weight in the law that poor tortured paragraph has got to be one of the most unfortunate passages in the english language witness the legions of blowhards like yourself who think those vague flowery phrases are part of the law of the land do you really believe that a politician only has to give lip service to promoting the general welfare to be within the limits of the constitution sorry buddy but some other blowhards managed to include the general welfare in another portion of the constitution article i section the congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the united states i guess they wanted to make sure everyone understood they meant what they said in the preamble but since it explicitly includes both the general welfare and defense in article i section i guess you ll grant that botha are constitutional functions right james madison federalist paper it has been urged and echoed that the power to lay and collect taxes duties imposts and excises to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the united states amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare no stronger proof could be given of the distress under which these writers labor for objections than their stooping to such a misconstruction had no other enumeration or definition of the powers of the congress been found in the constitution than the general expressions just cited the authors of the objection might have had some color for it but what color can the objection have when a specification of the objects alluded to by these general terms immediately follows and is not even separated by a longer pause than a semicolon nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.misc	re welcome to police state usa in article r l innh ctron news ctron com smith ctron com lawrence c smith writes the paranoid assertion that the batf fired first in an unprovoked assault assumes that the batf were on a death wish had they expected the b d to be anything other than peacefull citizens who would accept a search authorized by a court they would have turned up in a tank and broken the door down on day one this is stupid that is no paranoid assertion it is testamony from surviving witnesses and the batf has no tanks nor am i aware of either the batf or the fbi using any until yesterday when they use maximum force they do just what they did that first day that got four officers killed these surviving witnesses being members of which cult pray tell the stupidity was the attempt to serve a warant on the place by ludicrously underarmed and unprotected police underarmed you flabberghast me they were loaded for bear and every picture shows them wearing bullet proof vests they were using concussion grenades and full auto weapons what was missing low yield tac nukes this is a transparent attempt to retcon a justification for the ridiculous amount of force used both initially and yesterday you should be ashamed we were having a discussion about whether bush would have done anything differently on the basis of panama grenada tripoli kewait etc we decided that bush would have asked for a surgical airstrike or used a cruise missile some people suggested that he would have used the nuke warhead cruise others pointed out that he would be too cheap to use em what was missing armoured vehicles if anyone on the net cares to suggest a sure fire method of bringing the murderes of four police officers to justice perhaps we could hear it they had a sure fire method keep them bottled up and talk them to death or surrender without giving him justification for some looney tune religious stunt phil i ve been reading your postings for months and i m convinced that you will back anything no matter how damaging it may be to yours or anyone else s rights if you think it will hurt people you don t like it s people with that attitude that set up the preconditions for the holocaust a process that is in place now in this country even if the tattered pitiful remains of the constitution is slowing its progress this isn t a libertarian issue others may argue that line but from a strictly constitutional view of a democratic gov t what the fbi and batf did was wrong wrong wrong even if their reasons for trying to arrest koresh were right anything that leads to the deaths of children if nothing else touches your stoney heart is wrong no matter who pushed the button for god s sake man get your morality back the person who murdered children was koresh he kept them there and brought about their deaths deliberately you may consider that i am a complete bastard and a not very nice chap thats quite true i don t pretend to be being nice is what amateurs try to do if you want to talk politics you are talking hard decisions such as whether the lives of the troops should be risked attempting to rescue the children anyone who has held the office of president of the united states since fdr has held the threat that if the usa or its allies were to be threatened then the usa would risk nuclear holocaust in order to protect freedom beleive it or not that is not the sort of threat that nice chaps make do they have a gun nutters section of the us version of cnd by any chance there are cases where society has to be protected from madmen such as koresh or hitler if it were not for the consideration of the children in there the question of the tactics to be used would not be a matter of anything but academic significance it is not for the govt to prevent people from commiting mass suicide the latest reports are that cult members were shot attempting to leave the compound by koresh loyalists during the fire if proven that would entail the final nail in the coffin of those who want to promote koresh as some sort of role model or hero i need hardly add that it is koresh that has created the holocaust in this case by the deliberate arson of the ranch appocalypse phill hallam baker
talk.politics.misc	hhs secretary shalala to address aft s paraprofessional and school related personnel conference here is a press release from the american federation of teachers hhs secretary shalala to address aft s paraprofessional and school related personnel conference to national and assignment desks education writer contact jamie horwitz of american federation of teachers news advisory secretary of health and human services donna shalala will speak to the th annual aft paraprofessional and school related personnel conference at p m friday april at the washington hilton shalala will discuss hhs s agenda for helping children over the next four years aft s paraprofessional and school related personnel division includes school workers such as paraprofessionals and teacher aides school bus drivers school secretaries school custodians and maintenance workers and school food service workers more than a thousand school employees will attend the conference which is being held at the washington hilton april most of the school workers attending the conference come from urban school districts where child health and nutrition welfare reform and the availability of head start and other preschool programs are major issues workshops scheduled for the conference include sessions addressing issues around reauthorization of chapter how paraprofessionals and school related personnel especially minority men can serve as student role models the increasing problem of school violence dealing with abused children and assisting children with serious health problems for a complete conference schedule contact jamie horwitz at the american federation of teachers represents elementary and secondary teachers paraprofessionals and school related personnel higher education faculty nurses state and municipal workers canada remote systems toronto ontario
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article apr galileo cc rochester edu as b uhura cc rochester edu some caifone writes i certainly hope you don t have an so sir what is so supposed to signify i prefer the companionship of a person not a euphemism because if she heard thankfully you got the gender right for i am not a deviant how disparaging you are towards political minorities sexual deviants do not comprise a political minorit y and if she had any shred of self respect she d be out the door i only associate with girls who do indeed have self respect but were i to find myself with the sort who would be inclined to head out the door on account of my views regarding the aberrant behavior known as homosexuality i would encourage her to indeed do so and i would further advise her not to let the door whack her on the backside on the way out who needs such an airhead pretty soon they will find themselves retreating back into the closet where they belong don t count on it sweetheart oh i can t do anything but count on it after all it is inevitable for it is part of the natural order of things throughout history nature has always asserted itself don t be so arrogant as to assume that this foolish and misguided generation can change the nature of man where practically every other generation has failed greater men than you haven t been able to do this the above most certainly will happen no matter how much you may wish to pretend otherwise moreover i m not your sweetheart the views expressed herein are theodore a kaldis my own only do you seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe that a major university rutgers remus rutgers edu kaldis as this would hold such views
talk.politics.misc	re bush s wi in a previous article garrett ingres com grep a friend says in article qt e d e usenet ins cwru edu an cleveland freenet edu b writes went to the post office on friday got my passport apps in my savings have already been converted bye gosh does this mean i m not invited to the next white house barbecue the real difference between you and i garrett is that i knew when it was time to leave l a
talk.politics.misc	re janet reno killed the waco children in article fern camelot fern camelot bradley edu jill rosencrans writes i m not saying i m satisfied with the outcome it s very upsetting you are simply blaming the wrong person oh are we jill let me tell you a story then one evening not long in this country a man a parolee a convicted known violent crimminal lead police on high speed chase after breaking another law he decided that police had no right to do their jobs and enforce the law and assualted two of while attempting to resist arrest when police use metal sticks to force him into submission we heard all the reason why certain people in this country have and excuse when they refuse to obey the law how this was a perfect example of police oppression how all the police had to do was behave a certain way and all would have been finei how nothing the victim did could have possibly warranted the response some blows with a few sticks he got from the authorities funny how when it s bloodbath billy or his hitwench calling the shots a group of people who were bothering no one were not know to have broken any law who asked only that they be left alone to practice their religion as they fit how it is now that the government is justified in assualting those people with heavily armed commandos simply because the gun grabbers in dc thought these people had more guns thay they thought they should have now when it s the clinton administration that has the blood of dozens on its hand aaaall of a sudden it s the people who refused to have their civil rights violated it s their fault those evil fanatics provoked it how is it in the mind of the liberal democrat clinton supporter that a crimminal puke scum bag piece of garbage like rodney king could not have possibly provoked the beating he got but this bunch of wierdos could cause a fifty one day stand off that ended with the burning deaths of all of them and their children all by themselves with no help from the the police and to here people say they deserved what they got to hear clinton say the blame rest solely with koresch what a cowardly piece of work that man has shown again himself to be we re blaming the right people it is you and others that defend any of the actions of the batf fbi or justice department in this matter that with each word prove again and again the depth of the hypocrisy the double standard that people like the clintons would hold certain americans to while at the same time allowing others to do as they please with only excuses to offer their victims it s all to clear these days from the comments of the president and the rationalizations of his supporters in these groups that in a liberal democratic vision of america only a certain select few people can expect to have civil rights enforced and this administration intends to enforce laws apply the constitution and obey the laws only when it suits them to do so the rooster warning by order of heir clinton and for your own personal safety remember to maintain membership in only batf approved religious organizations batf approved religious services
talk.politics.misc	re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article apr gordian com mike gordian com michael a thomas writes in article c qk t qk voder nsc com matt galaxy nsc com matt freivald x writes in article apr gordian com mike gordian com michael a thomas writes as far as set the moral tone is concerned if a community does not collectively want to put up with prostitution going on in front of their kids why should they have to if a community does not want to see proliferation of drugs among their kids why should they have to by what right and do tell from the standpoint of the drug dealer or prostitute what is the difference if the gun is pointed by the local hick city council or the feds if something is wrong it is wrong period if it is not sustainable at a federal level why should it be ok just because the geographical unit is smaller peter nelson posted a very eloquent response to this point in talk politics misc so i need not consume more bandwidth here the problem with the egalitarian view is that it tries to deny the fundamental dilemma of democratic government the people have a right to exercise a voice in their community yet individuals have the right to be left to themselves this is a serious dilemma precisely because there is not much that takes place in a vacuum you are seriously misusing the word egalitarian you should look the word up before you use it there is a vast difference between equal justice under the law and egalitarianism what i meant if it was not clear was the intersection set of liberal and libertarian philosophies of natural rights and how the government and constitutional interpretation in particular fits into that philosophy this philosophy engages in the very serious practical error of endowing the nine lawyers on the supreme court with an almost totalitarian authority completely outside of the consent or consensus of the people this is why supreme court nominations are such amazing political fist fights these days because he who controls the court rules the country the people on the court may well be trying to do the best job they can but they are at best a benevolent oligarch even if you approve of every supreme court decision ever eventually an oligarch will arise that will decimate that which you hold dear try supreme court cases by jury and the problem would be mitigated a great deal those who would create broad non enumerated government powers at any level as in european parlamentary democracies and the current de facto standard in the u s have essentially engaged in the same fundamental mistake except that it is some different body that has the totalitarian virtually unchecked except by plurality election death or retirement government power and why should your community be allowed to stop my activities when i m not picking your pocket or defrauding you just because you don t like it because you find it morally repugnant this is like asking why the wind blows unless you can prove that the fact of your engaging in certain activities has absolutely no effect whatsoever on any other human being who has not consented to your engagement in those activities very few human activities indeed fit into this category even for those few that do who would you empower to make the judgement of what is and is not a fully autonomous activity who defines picking my pocket and defrauding are economic assets a person s only assets or are peace of mind stability confidence in a child s emotional environment security and many other things not also a part of a person s assets what gives you the right to create a moral environment that a parent strongly objects to what gives you the right to create an environment of social unrest and instability if you say that what you do does not have those effects by what authority do you say that who is empowered to make these value judgements how would you feel if i got a gang together and found xtianity or insert your favorite cause here morally repugnant and passed laws to outlaw its free exercise all at a local level since that seems to be a ok with you if the federal constitution explicitly prohibited you from doing so the federal government would prevent you from doing so if it did not and you could muster enough local support to pass an amendment to the local constitution by say a majority empowering the local government to do so then i would have to vote with my feet and move to a neighborhood more friendly to my own system of values this is not an ideal situation but it is far better than the mess we are mired in right now as to the gang of pitchfork and torch wielding friends there are very few restrictive local laws that i personally would advocate or vote for since i am of the view that exercising government power over your neighbors should be done with extreme care and only when absolutely necessary but i do believe in protecting children from victimization by people who have callous disregard for the effects they have on others i would certainly leave a well behaved massage parlor alone so long as it had no detrimental effects on the neighborhood you just don t get it the debate is not whether you or a communitity would or would not vote away my rights it is the propriety of whether that should even be an option when you define rights very broadly there is no practical choice about whether people will or will not infringe upon your rights since these rights overlap even when rights are defined very narrowly the government has been empowered to prevent others from infringing on your rights the fundamental question is by whose authority is that power created if you support the current situation with a natural rights supreme court rather than an original understanding supreme court or even better supreme court by jury you are consenting to having nine lawyers in washington d c create those powers out of the air in my fractal federalism scenario it is a broad consensus of the people i e the amendment process that creates those powers certainly not the only cause mike but people in a local neighborhood should have a voice in what goes on in that neighborhood to deny this is to create another concentrated centralized power to keep the locality from abusing its power you mean that horrific centralized power the individual no i mean the federal government that comes trucking in with guns to tell the locals how to run their neighborhood waco tx is a nice example in essence using a pit bull to keep a toy poodle from biting your leg chances are the pit bull is going to turn on you some day and you have much less defense against it than you do against the toy poodle ideally everyone would leave everyone else alone and no government coercive power of any kind would be necessary this will never work because people are different and by their nature they will always want to force their views on others if this were not the case nobody would try to force their view that murder is wrong on anyone else fine when they force their views on others prosecute them until then leave them alone this is such a simple concept how do you feel about speech codes hate speech certainly could be considered an indication that the pit bull is going to turn some day should the community be allowed to limit it too if not why not if you create a community where public masturbation is permitted in the cause of personal autonomy have you done anything different what precisely are these autonomous activities you are referring to if you list them perhaps we can get enough people to agree that they are truly autonomous and pass a constitutional amendment protecting them and how do you feel about david koresh did he deserve it should the batf or a local version of same be allowed to toss him in jail just because they think he s off his rocker the koresh incident appears to be a horrendous abuse of government power power possibly illegitimately obtained through a means i would abolish the constitutionality of no knock warrants seems very dubious to me not to mention the mere existence of batf and the government s propensity to ignore the word infringe in the second amendment this power is upheld by the same body with its incredible concentration of power in the hands of nine people that has upheld much so called civil rights read affirmative action legislation despite the fourteenth amendment who said anything about the public till get rid of it and get out of my face i agree about getting rid of the public till are you still sure you don t want to come over for coffee you might not especially like my neighborhood and i might not especially like yours but at least we can agree to let each other live the kind of life we want to at the point you get rid of the public till you lose all credibility as to why you should have a say about my private affairs are you sure you are ready for that money is certainly not the only asset i have in this world if it were this would be a bleak existence indeed michael thomas mike gordian com matt freivald liborgalism thinking is irrelevant integrity is irrelevant free speech is irrelevant private property is irrelevant personal responsibility is irrelevant conservativism is futile you will be assimilated these are my opinions only and not those of my employer
talk.politics.misc	re the continuing decay in a previous article pyotr halcyon com peter d hampe says the military s mission is to kill the enemy before they can escape or surrender yes so you still haven t explained why they can t be used to enforce civil law they certainly would have done a better job of koresh just call in an air strike chus pyotr pyotr halcyon com sometimes pyotr filipivich sometimes owl optimist bagpiper with a beeper
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article c k lc cyf murdoch acc virginia edu lfoard hopper virginia edu lawrence c foard writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes from the santa rosa cal press democrat april p b male sex survey gay activity low a new natonal study on male sexual behavior the most thorough examination of american men s sexual practices published since the kinsey report more than four decades ago shows about percent of the men surveyed had engaged in homosexual sex and percent considered themselves exclusively homosexual the figures on homosexuality in the study released wednesday by the alan guttmacher institute are significantly lower than the percent figure that has been part of the conventional wisdom since it was published in the kinsey report so what homosexuals lie about the number to hide the disproportionate involvement of homosexuals in child molestation put up or shut up where is your evidence show a study indicating a link between liking grown ups of the same sex and liking children saying that of molested children are male shows nothing since it tells you nothing of the molesters preference in adults if they have any at all they also lie about to keep politicians scared the politicians will have plenty to be scared of in one week be it or it will be interesting to see the reaction when million queers gather in washington dc after all if there are only million of us then this is an event unprecidented in history but many of the people who will be marching aren t homosexuals but other members of the leftist agenda i m sure there will be a few non queers but the vast majority are queer join the pythagorean reform church repent of your evil irrational numbers and bean eating ways accept into your heart call the pythagorean reform church bbs at
talk.politics.misc	re janet reno killed the waco children in a previous article dianem boi hp com diane mathews says aside from the fact that i disagree w you she did offer to resign and the president rejected the offer she was willing to take responsibility and the president has the balls enough to stand by a decision or the contempt to ignore it
talk.politics.misc	re welcome to police state usa in article r pit n k lll winken llnl gov ed wente llnl gov ed suranyi writes in article apr cc usu edu slp k cc usu edu writes in article c rusq m m news cso uiuc edu azoghlin uxa cso uiuc edu very old freshman vof writes critisism is too easy what solutions do people have that would have been better than what the fbi had been doing for the last few months firstly they could have backed off regardless of who was at fault in the first assault the one in which four atf officers died once that was over backing off was no longer an option the people inside particularly koresh were criminal suspects they could have made a case of self defense if they wanted in a court of law until then the police had the responsibility to capture and arrest them i ve never heard of a case where the police knew there was a criminal suspect in a building and still decided to back off continuing the siege was one of the few alternatives to what actually took place and it s a matter of debate whether any of these would have ended any better how about letting in the press how about letting koresh out to talk to the press maybe if he had been allowed to talk with the press tv for a couple of days he would have surrendered peacefully how about letting the relatives of koresh s followers talk seems to me when you isolate someone try to send them crazy by playing loudspeakers through the night of tibetan chants etc you don t have much to stand on when they behave as if they are crazy i m not too sure of their sanity to start with i am very suspicious when the government controls all communication and sends the press miles away i have a gut feeling that no knock warrant which is sealed would not stand up to scrutiny i don t think no knock warrants are what the constitution writers had in mind when they gave us rights against improper search and seizure i don t think an all powerful central high taxing government was what the constitution writers had in mind when it delagated rights to the citizens and states and restricted central government
talk.politics.misc	re janet and the babies in a previous article demon desire wright edu not a boomer says evidently it was janet s concern for the babies being slapped by koresh that made her give the go ahead for the ram n gas tactics larry king live was both telling and sickening every other word out of janet reno s mouth was the little children etc sounded like clinton talking she made claims that the children were beaten etc despite the pronouncements of social workers that none of the children who left the compound were abused but the real crime larry king and his censored show not one fucking question about reno s possible error just two calls about how she had made a good decision now it doesn t take a rocket scientist to figure out that some people are going to be upset nope no real questions at all
talk.politics.misc	stimulus legislation does anyone know where i can access an online copy of the proposed jobs or stimulus legislation please e mail me directly and if anyone else is interested i can post this information thanks mike brooks note my e mail address in the news header is not correct my correct address is brooks icbr ifas ufl edu
talk.politics.misc	re eight myths about national health insurance pt ii v pxgt ubvmsb cc buffalo edu daniel b case writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes i heard about a guy in alberta who came down with some rare eye disease that he had to take repeated trips to seattle to get treated well what american private insurance plans cover travel expenses well it wasn t just the travel expenses it was the whole treatment when you buy insurance where you live it is based on the local rates tourists coming from say utah will find that there is a difference in what their insurance will cover fob provo and what they get stuck with at lenox hill or mount sinai if they fall ill in the big apple but to what extent does it affect the system and why is an urgent care list necessary in the first place it s worth thinking about it s regular practice in a hospital to figure out who needs to get at what facilities don t americans have to arrange in advance for operations too i think that there are two standards being applied here and that canada can t give beverly hills style treatment to everybody it s not a big brother list it s more like calling around town for a table for dinner but americans need far less advance time to book operations it would depend on where you live downtown toronto or mile british columbia just like cheyenne wy vs boston ma again geography rears its ugly head since our health care providers are private they depend on an adequate market size in order to sustain enough business since our health care professionals have equivalent take home pay to their american cousins it s not that they re being paid too little to provide services whether canadians would be thrilled at the prospect of their own health services catering toward americans who would be willing to pay more than they do is another issue entirely it must be noted that they said they were doing it partly because their grants from the province were getting smaller if those grants are so insubstantial why the need to attract foreigners to make up the difference you answered the question yourself private nonprofit foundations have to make money somehow and i think that it s about time that they acted like the private hospitals that they are personally i m fed up with canadian socialists trying to tell everyone that their health care is free when we are actually buying insurance that s one at you bob rae true but i was thinking does can anybody compete with the provinces to offer basic health coverage i remember reading that that sort of private health insurance is actually illegal in canada i have only hear americans say that it s illegal but i could be wrong just have never heard it from a canadian source our private insurance has recently balked in quebec when the liberals proposed privatizing some aspects of routine care also our insurance was put in place when no ndp labour governments were in power in any province to derail the effort cos they wanted real socialized medicine you re not buying insurance so much as being coerced into one insurance plan no it is optional as it is optional for doctors to accept it there are isolated religeous communities in particular that ask for exemptions and one e mail from a christian scientist in edmonton verified for me that it is indeed negative option i guess that you can argue that there is a right to having a particular insurance but so far i ve not come across that up north and i take pains to keep tabs with news from home and that turns the private insurers offering the frills into an effective cartel they don t really need to compete because as you put it they re in a win win situation and they re guaranteed to turn a profit believe me they probably had orgasms when they figured that out and according to my sister the yuppie they pat themselves on the back to the point of ungraciousness at chamber of commerce luncheons interesting side note have any new insurance companies started up from scratch since medicare became standard in canada i actually have doubts that any new ones have emerged since ww i no scratch that there are a few in western canada and quite a few in quebec as part of the post quebec miracle out with the nationalism in with the french capitalism la groupe des cooper antes built a new tower by the eaton s store at les terraces and if you were able to catch urban angel on cbs s crimetime you d see it as the well lit one with double turrets at the top as for ontario which still dominates and anchors business up north canada is a very old money kind of place and the free trade agreement saw a lot of odd alliances labour unions and establishment old money who wanted to preserve their traditional monopolies on one side and entrepreneurs and internationally oriented businesses and professionals on the other the final trudeau administration and the first mulroney government had a high percentage of nouveaux riches who knew what it was like to make your own money and that motivated the mcdonald commission under trudeau which set up brian s initiative macaroni was against free trade til he did a head count of his caucus after the election it s not really insurance if you don t have alternatives well you have to realize that in our society that s like saying that it s not really national defence because you can t hire your own rambo squad instead or even opting out as a pacifist btw there are always pacifists in the news arguing about their portion of taxes but never people arguing over health insurance alternatives and we re talking about a press that is hostile to whomever is in government regardless of party one of their few redeeming characteristics it seems also in the april globe and mail there was a letter from the director of trauma services at st michael s hospital in toronto responding to an article on a study comparing heart surgery in california and canada in which some canadian doctor worried that american analysts would seize on the results as proof that canada rationed vital services the doctor i can t recall his name said that canada is rationing vital services as any physician can plainly see he said that a system in which people are refused treatment because they can t afford it is no different from a system in which people are refused treatment because the government can t afford it as a result of deliberate underfunding of the health insurance plan in fairness he did say that both the us and canadian systems are in the same situation the only way to hit at the canadian system is transient periods of high demand which is more a function of the doctors monopoly s tight fist on the licencing an obvious difference is that in such a transient period the rationing is of the nature of a mob battling over cabbage patch dolls tm as we ve seen recently as opposed by rationing by ability to pay but the former is a transient situation and if a large body of insured patients were to deluge the california health infrastructure the same would result rationing among the insured population with smaller markets there is much less flexibility when dealing with our insured population than california which by the way has rd more people than canada in a much more dense area so he is correct in that the resources are fixed for a particular time window or as a function of the doctors monopoly licencing according to the market steady state in either case as for being refused treatment the government of the day would be shredded to tatters if something like that were to happen canadians can be geographically bad too not realizing that their health care is private while only their insurance isn t too many people have bought into socialist trype that we have socialized medicine i know i know the monopoly power of canadian doctors often leads them to overstate the problems with the system in order to get more money from the government another case of businessmen once scratched becoming socialists right as i ve pointed out above but hasn t that just shifted the locus of the problem from one place to the other it hasn t really solved it either way the transient situations are hard to deal with since the changes in the private medical care resource take place at a slower rate than the ability of people to fall sick esp in the light of disasters e g chernobyl or bad luck a sudden wave of heart disease a doctor needs years of training plus internship and specialty training people too often tend to put prescription cold medicine on their insurance when they really don t need to that s why i ve argued for deductible and copayments rather than education which is what most canadian fiscal conservatives are arguing for the leftists ah just let em spend yeah right also note that only a few provinces cover prescriptions under some high dollar threshold in most it s your private insurance that covers it just like in the u s still it all adds up in the oecd measures in fact buffalo may be the only place in the us where people get don cherry jokes we get the sabres feed as a replacement game on espn tonight the devils local metro ny coverage supplants the main espn game the ndp cleaning up a tory spending mess and just when i thought i understood canadian politics yeah it s a sad story and saskatchewan tory leader grant devine has been on a nonstop pr campaign to save his sorry butt the sask ndp have taken a neo conservative turn like hawke gonzalez and mitterand did has anybody considered following singapore s example and going to a system where the company and the state buys basic and catastrophic coverage for everybody and then you also have an ira sort of thing to which you and your employer can can contribute for medical expenses only it would tend to discourage you from overusing it the medical ira would have limited use as you d need a lower catastrophic threshold else there d still be a drain on the public purse if someone exhausts their ira also singapore has a much more autocratic mentality which has seaped down into its masses if singaporeans that i ve met are any indication i don t mean any disprespect here where they d let you just die one of the good things about being the last country to create a national health care system should we decide to is that we have everybody else s mistakes to learn from that s true the question is how much leeway is there between the u s approach and the second most capitalist approaches of canada france and germany seriously there are few areas that have sufficient population for a two more tiered system like what the french have a health policy prof d g shea has cited studies in the nejm that indicate having a population of is necessary for adequate competition and in canada there are only four cities west of the great lakes with that population or larger but there are many cities in the us with that kind of population yes many and pretty close to a lot of smaller towns or not too far from a bigger town just take a look at a detailed atlas or better take a flight from pittsburgh or rochester to toronto my first time across lake ontario to nyc i was amazed by the increase in density and the toronto region is the densest in all of canada there was one about a group of doctors in calgary who have opened canada s first us style mri clinic as an alternative to the provincially owned one it s about time i ve ragged on my own doctor friends as to why they don t invest in their own private practices in the end it s their money but they choose to spend it on america s cup pipedreams and that s none of my business as for provincially owned for sure it s against the law in canada for governments to be directly involved in the provision of health care except in the military or native reser vations what that term actually means is that the facility gets by on public grants to meet shortfall from lack of use no kidding medical practice itself is much more conservative up north my own best friend did two clerkships at the mayo clinic in rochester mn and is no stranger to high tech medicine but his boat comes first there were some people expressing concern that it was the first wedge of two tiered health care and that it might violate the canada health act no it s probably socialist whiners who are offended that we have private practices and always have they can all take cash anyways so why not have a particular facility the canadian big government mentality often imagines government where it does not even exist since the french and germans have become more entrepreneurial and less laidback without sacrificing their culture and values then canadians can do the same as i ve pointed out above the law states that it is illegal for the government to provide any health services except for the military and natives look nobody stopped the clinic when they planned on the mri nobody stopped them when they bought it nobody seems to be stopping them from using it either much ado about nothing thank goodness that hockey playoffs have started while it seemed currently unjustified there was one anecdote told by the head of the partnership to demonstrate the mri he showed an image of an injured knee which happened to belong to the manager of the bank who approved the loan he said that without it the guy might have had to wait a month or more at the provincial mri then another length of time for treatment after which the muscles would have atrophied and rehabilitation would have been that much harder if that isn t the first whiff of two tiers i don t know what is i m certain there is exaggeration somewhere because the gao study of canada cited often on usenet did not find access to mri to be a problem i ll bet the doctor is relying on people having listened to american trash talk on cable so that he can puff his chest a bit there are already a few treatment regimens for knee injuries without relying on mri unfortunately i ve had a few and i m not a banker gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
talk.politics.misc	re janet reno killed the waco children in a previous article ed wente llnl gov ed suranyi says this too is ridiculous in no way can the provoker be considered to have played more than an exceedingly minor role a person who kills is ultimately responsible for his own actions frankly i m sick of being lied to it was bad before clinton and now it s worse here listen to ricks fbi words one half hour before the fire come out with your hands up this matter is now over now i hear ricks and reno claiming that this was just another incremental step in pressure more bullshit why did they pick am monday morning so nobody would notice so everyone would be busy at work starting a new week more bullshit did the fbi hold back fire engines here let me paraphrase sessions no we didn t hold back the engines we had them on stand by blah balh blah and so to protect the the fireman we didn t allow the engines to enter until it was safe what the fuck is this yes we have no bananas what the hell kind of double talk is this no we didn t so blah balh we did huh i watched this clinton takes responsibility even though it wasn t his decision more bullshit does he or does he not take responsibility no more even though bullshit yes or no christ ed ed wente llnl gov
talk.politics.misc	re janet reno killed the waco children in article c sno h p boi hp com dianem boi hp com diane mathews writes in article apr ncsu edu dsh eceyv ncsu edu doug holtsinger writes janet reno killed the waco children she is responsible for their deaths she should resign immediately she should have understood that david koresh was a madman who would do anything against the children if he became provoked all the warning signs were there and she ignored them she provoked koresh into killing the children aside from the fact that i disagree w you she did offer to resign and the president rejected the offer she was willing to take responsibility and the president has the balls enough to stand by a decision the fact that reno is actually taking responsibility gee that s a new one for a politician is a new thing for a member of clinton s administration i actually respect her for having a backbone i never thought i d say that about someone from that bunch the way i understand what happened is that she discussed with clinton what was being planned for waco clinton didn t say no so gave de facto approval for the operation things got messed up and a lot of people died horrible deaths if i am incorrect about this please feel free to correct it this is just what i ve been able to pick up i ve just got a couple of questions about this whole thing why did the government feel they needed to assault that compound why didn t they try to flush them out in the first week of this fiasco instead of waiting days janet reno jumped up to take responsibilty to take heat away from the president does this sound anything like what a couple of reagan s aides did aaron
talk.politics.misc	re janet reno killed the waco children in a previous article atboyken iastate edu aaron t boyken says in article c sno h p boi hp com dianem boi hp com diane mathews writes i ve just got a couple of questions about this whole thing janet reno jumped up to take responsibilty to take heat away from the president does this sound anything like what a couple of reagan s aides did no no it couldn t possibly be the same because america voted for change and elected william george clinton
talk.politics.misc	re welcome to police state usa in article c rusq m m news cso uiuc edu azoghlin uxa cso uiuc edu very old freshman vof writes critisism is too easy what solutions do people have that would have been better than what the fbi had been doing for the last few months first of all i wouldn t have gone after the davidians for a firearms violation which i object to in the first place second i wouldn t have executed a search warrant via an armed assault when all the davidians were sure to have been there third of all i wouldn t have cut off all outside communication to koresh and i certainly wouldn t have gone in with a tank time was on the fbis side since they had outside resupply they could wait indefinitely matthew t russotto russotto eng umd edu russotto wam umd edu some news readers expect disclaimer here just say no to police searches and seizures make them use force not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice
talk.politics.misc	re welcome to police state usa in article c si g hx dscomsa desy de hallam zeus desy de writes the above conveniently ignores the murder of four batf agents by the branch davidians in an unprovoked ambush say what surrounding the compound with armed men and throwing grenades isn t a provocation any government that allows tinpot dictators to set up shop and declare a private state has drifted into anarchy there are laws to control the ownership of guns and the batf had good reason to beleive that they were being violated they set out to obtain a legal warrant and attempted to serve it only to be met with gunfire when they rang the doorbell you re smoking something not legal in the us they never rang the doorbell not even the batf has claimed that they have this was a no knock search as to the good reason the batf has the warrant and supporting affadavit have not been made public matthew t russotto russotto eng umd edu russotto wam umd edu some news readers expect disclaimer here just say no to police searches and seizures make them use force not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice
talk.politics.misc	carpeting in bosnia anybody for carpeting in bosnia serbia i mean like carpet bombing of serbian positions
talk.politics.misc	re welcome to police state usa civl csc canterbury ac nz writes in article c rusq m m news cso uiuc edu azoghlin uxa cso uiuc edu very old freshman vof writes critisism is too easy what solutions do people have that would have been better than what the fbi had been doing for the last few months withdraw leave the people in the compund to lead their lives as they choose prosecute the baft agents for murder brandon hutchison university of canterbury christchurch new zealand cheers brandon that s the best suggestion i have seen that seeeeee ya turmoil halcyon com
talk.politics.misc	re welcome to police state usa in article c t wv e dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes in article veal utkvm utk edu veal utkvm utk edu david veal writes in article c si g hx dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes any government that allows tinpot dictators to set up shop and declare a private state has drifted into anarchy there are laws to control the ownership of guns and the batf had good reason to beleive that they were being violated they set out to obtain a legal warrant and attempted to serve it only to be met with gunfire when they rang the doorbell the batf in a letter they ve been sending out to people says both that they were ambushed because they lost the element of surprise and that they went up and knocked on the door and had it slammed in their faces it strikes me as kind of strange to rely on surprise to serve a warrant by knocking on the door presumably the b d did not mount a continuous state of alert with gunmen ready to fire on people who casually walked up to ring the doorbell let s try that again why was the batf concerned about surprise when they intended to serve the warrant by knocking on the door the batf appears to be inconsistant in their own description of events and in any case how does one mount an ambush if one isn t on alert had they expected the b d to be anything other than peacefull citizens who would accept a search authorized by a court they would have turned up in a tank and broken the door down on day one phill the batf were in a firefight with the bd for forty five minutes i find it hard to believe that if they were expecting peaceful citizens they wouldn t have shown up in live stock trailers and would have retreated immediately not a smart move unless meant to be part of the surprize cover even so the narrow opening of the trucks simply was not a good idea a side opening truck would have been much better more like a covered waggon so were the batf fired on before or after they left the trailers to knock on the door to serve the warrant every description i ve heard indicates the batf did not hang around in the trailers once they decided to open them up for that matter if they expect peaceful citizens why come in live stock trailers to being with if they were expecting peacful citizens why show up with over a hundred officers some of which clearly visible on video to be carrying sub machineguns and national guard helicopters sounds just about right to me its the minimum amount of force that i would consider necessary to serve a warrant on the talk politics guns annual dinner ok just to make sure we ve got this straight you consider armed troops in disguised vehicles and multiple helicopters to be used to serve search warrants on peaceful citizens and just so we don t have one of those entertaining shifts you described them as the batf expecting them to be peaceful michael hesseltine ordered the use of over crack troops including members of the parachute regiment to remove approx hippy peace protestors on a site where they wanted to install cruise missiles he even turned up in a flack jacket to monitor the proceedings just about the most dangerous tool the women possesed was a tin opener that single action probably cost him the position as prime minister one of the elders of my church got arrested in that heroic action by the forces of toryism hesseltine ever after was something of a national joke i don t see how past abuses excuse present ones hell you re not even discussing the same government david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.misc	re law and economics i m going to be mixing together here stuff from two of ted frank s articles apr midway uchicago edu which was a response to me and apr midway uchicago edu a response to tim smith yes i know the boomer court didn t call it eminent domain but if it walks like eminent domain and swims like eminent domain and quacks like eminent domain wdstarr are all tort cases really eminent domain cases then what about bankruptcy contract eminent domain is a state mandated transaction in which one party is required to sell a piece of property which it owns to another party regardless of whether the first party wishes to sell at all at a price which is set by the state i fail to see how this doctrine can be found in tort bankruptcy or contract cases in general well okay sort of in bankruptcy if so so what since when are the courts supposed to be in the business of preventing parties from reaping windfall settlements from other parties when those settlements arise from wrongful acts by those other parties wdstarr since you said that boomer s reliance on economics led to an unjust result i m pointing out that your alternative is far more unjust in the traditional sense of the world atlantic cement s act was not wrongful it did something that we as a capitalistic society should want them to do build a factory create industry and jobs the cost of compliance was grossly disproportionate to the damage faced by plaintiffs bang here s one of the places where we widely diverge you believe that the courts in deciding a civil dispute between two parties should consider as a factor perhaps as an overriding factor issues which i believe the court should ignore as being irrelevant to the dispute boomer v atlantic cement co was an action brought by one party boomer whose property rights were being violated on an ongoing basis by another party the atlantic cement company the facts supported boomer s contention that atlantic cement was wrongfully damaging his property and boomer asked the court to order atlantic cement to stop doing so end of story there was no reason for the court to consider such issues as what a capitalistic society would want atlantic cement to do or whether the cost of compliance was disproportionate to the damage faced by the plaintiffs those issues had nothing to do with the case before the court bill if the government had stepped in and the epa made a regulation requiring multi million dollar cement plants to be shut down because of a smattering of cement dust at a cost benefit ratio of you d be up in arms why is it okay for the judicial branch to interfere this way but not the legislative or executive branches i d be up in arms why do you assume that quite the contrary i d probably support the action since it would be based on the same general doctrine as the decision that i believe would have been correct in boomer the idea that people s property rights should not be violated for reasons of economic efficiency in boomer it was boomer s property rights which i believe the court should have protected in the hypothetical epa ruling you ve presented it s the american people s collective property rights in a healthy physical environment what good is cost benefit ratio of if you wind up with cement dust in your air your rule makes it per se illegal to ever operate a cement plant if the state of massachusetts came up with a similar regulation you d be up in arms and complaining about interference with property rights and fifth amendment violations once again why is it okay for the judicial branch to interfere this way but not the legislative or executive branches or are you not the libertarian you present yourself as being ted frank how would it be per se illegal to operate a cement plant wouldn t it just mean that when buying land for a cement plant you would have to either buy enough land so that most of the pollution would stay on your land or buy pollution easements from the surrounding landowners tim smith all it takes is one holdout out of hundreds of neighbors to scrap the plant furthermore each of the neighbors is going to want the full benefit of the bargain under the resulting bilateral monopoly a bonanza for lawyers to be sure who get to negotiate each of these agreements a windfall for homeowners who can extort away any profits the plant would make but not particularly good for society yes so what the courts are supposed to protect the specific rights of individuals not the general interests of some nebulous society if society can have its cement plant without violating anyone s rights fine otherwise society will somehow have to limp along with one less cement plant see ted i really am a libertarian after all that s the whole point behind the coase theorem in a world without transactions costs the land will automatically be put to the best use as it is transferred from person to person instantaneously without friction the legal regime will not matter because the result will be the same in a world such as ours one with transactions costs one wants the legal regime to approximate the end result to begin with in order to minimize the transactions costs one wants the legal regime to approximate the end result to begin with in order to minimize the transactions costs which one are you speaking of i want the legal regime to protect people s rights besides coase s theorem only has real application in the never never land of perfectly rational actors in the real world some people are going to be stubborn ornery spiteful or otherwise irrational from a economic point of view and the purpose of the courts is to protect their right to be so i don t care if you can show me logically that your cattle are only doing of damage to my property per head so i should rationally sell you grazing rights to my land for say per head i still retain the right to tell you that i just plain don t want any damned cattle on my property not at any price and then you say everyone s property rights were protected the plaintiffs were made whole unnecessary settlement costs were avoided as above i dispute your claim that the plaintiffs were made whole they were in fact by court action deprived of their rights as owners of property to choose to sell or not sell that property at a price acceptable to them wdstarr then by your argument no tort plaintiff is ever made whole because the award of damages in involuntary why should we treat a nuisance plaintiff any different than any other tort plaintiff we don t require specific performance in the analogous contractual situation why in tort last question first for the same reason as in contract law because to do so would come dangerously close to treading on the thirteenth amendment as to your then by your argument no tort plaintiff is ever made whole because the award of damages in involuntary claim you re at least partially right faced with situations in which the wrong has already been done and the damage to the victim has already taken place and cannot be reversed or undone courts will try to set an equitable price tag on the loss suffered by the victim and require the wrongdoer to pay this price rather than an inflated price which the victim might prefer in these cases the sale has already taken place and is irreversible and the court simply tries to ensure that a fair price is paid under the doctrines that a only in certain circumstances should even a civil wrongdoer be forced to pay punitive or excessive prices and b even a genuine victim should not profit in an unjustified or inequitable manner from his victimhood both of these doctrines may be worth discussing or debating elsewhere but neither is relevant to cases like boomer in which the wrongful act and the loss stemming from it are still in the future and can be reversed undone i e prevented from happening at all by order of the court in these types of cases all the court has to do is require that the potential victim s property rights are protected until and unless he agrees to sell them at a mutually acceptable price there is no need for the court to guess at the equitable value of the loss and force both sides to accept its finding it can leave that operation up to the parties themselves and again i ask since when are the courts supposed to be in the business of ensuring that unnecessary settlement costs are avoided if so i ve been miseducated i always thought that the courts were supposed to be in the business of ensuring that justice is done unnecessary settlement costs are unjust because they are punitive in cases like boomer they re simply a cost of doing business the fact that the proprietors of the atlantic cement co got themselves into a position in which they found themselves over this barrel is simply a result of their own poor business decision to start up a cement plant without first trying to negotiate with boomer and everyone else whose property rights they d be violating via the operation of their plant there s nothing punitive or unjust about it it is completely sensible only if you believe that the alleged right of the owners of atlantic cement to stay in business and avoid losing a lot of their own money due to their own wrongful act and the alleged right of several hundred atlantic cement employees to not have their jobs disappear should trump the rights of people who own property which was damaged by atlantic cement s wrongful acts wdstarr anybody who ever commits a wrongful act should disgorge their entire set of possessions to wronged person weren t you complaining about excess punitive damages before anybody who wants to commit a wrongful act in the future should be required to buy the right to do so from the victim in advance and the seller should be allowed to set his or her price for the privilege no injustice no punitive damages you d like posner bill he s a libertarian really i didn t know that what if anything has he had to say about cases like boomer wdstarr in eal he cites it as an example of bilateral monopoly that the court correctly avoided i m sure its covered in the landes and posner book on tort law presumably favorably but i don t have that book in front of me doesn t sound very much like a libertarian to me libertarians tend to believe in the rights of individual people not societies i ve admitted that my understanding of the field generally referred to as law and economics is weak if it advocates the use of economical analysis as one of many tie breaker factors which courts may use to help them reach decisions in cases in which the dispute as measured by the scale of justice is evenly balanced fine but as illustrated by boomer it is not fine when the courts start viewing the economics of a case as being more important than the justice of a case wdstarr in this case the justice of the case was intricately tied up with the economics of the case atlantic cement committed a tort causing k of damage should it pay in the millions or just compensate for the damage it committed as stated above the tort was ongoing atlantic cement wanted to be able to continue to violate boomer s rights while the court may have been justified in setting an equitable price tag on the damage already committed it had no reason and no need to set a price tag on the future violations of boomer s rights and to then force boomer to sell at that price william december starr wdstarr athena mit edu
talk.politics.misc	re the earth also pollutes in article apr titan ksc nasa gov rodger scoggin ksc nasa gov rodger c scoggin writes in article dzvb b w w cellar org techie cellar org william a bacon says fury of mother nature man s contribution to environmental pollution are paltry compared to those of nature in her exceptional book trashing the planet former atomic energy commision chairman dr dixie lee ray notes based on the available data atomic energy commision hmm they would say this i m no defender of the aec but it is worth noting that it is unfair to tar that organization with the decidedly minority scientific views of its former chairperson and one term washington governor dr dixie lee ray dr ray s political agenda is well known and documented likewise her lack of objectivity in analysing scientific data is well known jsh steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
talk.politics.misc	re the earth also pollutes in article apr titan ksc nasa gov rodger scoggin ksc nasa gov rodger c scoggin writes in article dzvb b w w cellar org techie cellar org william a bacon says the earth may spew alot of substances into the atmosphere but the quality of your toxic output can easily make up for the lack of quantity excuse me quality as in grade a co and grade b co i may not have this quite right but i was under the impression that co was co furthermore the planet is a system of carbon sulfur and other chemicals which have been acting for billions of years we are but newcomers to the system we must adapt and control in order to bring about stability also two wrongs do not make a right so continuing our practices despite overwhelming data is just ignorance in non action a there is no reason to believe this system is inherently stable the ice ages occured without any help from humans b the point was that the human contribution of co and other greenhouse gasses is insignificant and it won t really make a difference if we make more or less c what overwhelming data i see lots of projections of the future which is fascinating considering they can t predict the weather two weeks in advance william everett tan rested and ready harvey mudd college nixon in these opinions are mine you can t have them
talk.politics.misc	re the earth also pollutes in article dzvb b w w cellar org techie cellar org william a bacon writes fury of mother nature clearly man has a long way to go to match nature as a despoiler of the environment bullshit how many lakes have ceased to be able to support life from purely natural pollution man has already done this to scores of lakes also much of the degredation you cite was done by cows and pigs and why do think there are so many cows around could it be cause people raise them legalize freedom
talk.politics.misc	re the earth also pollutes in article c uxhi h b murdoch acc virginia edu rwd f poe acc virginia edu rob dobson writes in article dzvb b w w cellar org techie cellar org william a bacon writes fury of mother nature clearly man has a long way to go to match nature as a despoiler of the environment bullshit how many lakes have ceased to be able to support life from purely natural pollution man has already done this to scores of lakes also much of the degredation you cite was done by cows and pigs you have perhaps heard of the dead sea i may be wrong but i believe it is not misnamed and i don t believe that humans had a hand in it although it is possible since the great cedar forests of lebanon were but a memory by the time of christ if not earlier but more on the point while nature is the may be the more prolific despoiler man is certainly the more creative we have to our credit pesticides and heavy metals not to mention radioactivity which is so wonderfully persistent and fatal not that we invented radioactivity or heavy metals we only concentrated them so that they would be a more lethal threat in general i find mr bacon s arguments rhetorical devoid of sense and therefore trivial btw is there any reason this discussion is on phl misc so long jr
talk.politics.misc	re the earth also pollutes in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks says i m no defender of the aec but it is worth noting that it is unfair to tar that organization with the decidedly minority scientific views of its former chairperson and one term washington governor dr dixie lee ray dr ray s political agenda is well known and documented likewise her lack of objectivity in analysing scientific data is well known you are correct i apologize my problems with the aec are their however inherent continuous barage of misleading data in order to support the statement that nuclear is not only safe and clean but cheap to boot to cents per kilowatt hour is not cheap and neither are nuclear power plants as far as being safe and clean i ll let nuclear power plants speak for themselves all the way from the uranium mines to their decommisioning
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in apr cs nott ac uk eczcaw mips nott ac uk a wainwright writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes yes you are when you and the rest of the homosexual community pass laws to impose your moral codes on me by requiring me to hire rent to or otherwise associate with a homosexual against my will yes you are in my face until homosexuals stop trying to impose their morals on me i will be in your face about this your post is based on the premise that the laws as they stand do not discriminate anybody so your argument falls over immediately are you why not try to eliminate discrimination from existing laws instead of trying to add discrimination that favors your group mob rule isn t any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain t charity if you are using someone else s money wilson s theory of relativity if you go back far enough we re all related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in apr romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes in article apr galileo cc rochester edu as b uhura cc rochester edu some caifone writes i certainly hope you don t have an so sir what is so supposed to signify i prefer the companionship of a person not a euphemism oh do please try not to be ludicrous so significant other a term i employed to avoid the awkward construction girlfriend or wife because if she heard thankfully you got the gender right for i am not a deviant a deviant is someone who does not fit an accepted norm by that definition i would certainly be a deviant as bisexuality is not an accepted norm in american society so far this term of course really has no negative aspects inherent in its denotation i presume you intended it as a term of abuse it s a great pity you feel such tactics to be necessary but hardly surprising since you have no factual basis for your absurd beliefs how disparaging you are towards political minorities sexual deviants do not comprise a political minorit y may i attempt to emulate your style of discourse with a term of abuse ahem you addle pated jellyfish the post to which i responded was a highly amusing one in which you belittled homosexuals for having no political clout i would be further amused if you would explain to me why having no political clout and constituting a political minority are different and if she had any shred of self respect she d be out the door i only associate with girls who do indeed have self respect but were and yet you call them girls the feminists would be up in arms i to find myself with the sort who would be inclined to head out the door on account of my views regarding the aberrant behavior known as homosexuality i would encourage her to indeed do so and i would further advise her not to let the door whack her on the backside on the way out who needs such an airhead cough cough well well you certainly are a fine upstanding fellow you are sir and like many fine upstanding fellows you have the reading comprehension of a dyslexic anteater perhaps i should have been more explicit in pointing out that females constitute a political minority in this country when last i checked and that your obvious lack of respect for these minorities equates to a lack of respect for women that is of course a conceptual stretch of logic but given your slow uptake as de monstrated so far i figure we should start simple and work up don t worry you ll get it pretty soon they will find themselves retreating back into the closet where they belong don t count on it sweetheart oh i can t do anything but count on it after all it is inevitable for it is part of the natural order of things throughout history nature has always asserted itself don t be so arrogant as this is very true this bit about nature asserting itself homosexuality has always been a part of human society and always will be for that is the natural order if you re naive enough to believe otherwise go right ahead we ll try not to snicker too loudly behind your back inevitable chortle anyone would think you had some idea what you were talking about i haven t seen fact one from you and until i do you can just dispense with the bullshit and tell us what we already know that you re a clueless little slime mold with no concept of reality beyond the donna reed show live a little and then come back and tell us all about the natural order of things you re in a bubble and it s really going to rock your world when you come out to assume that this foolish and misguided generation can change the nature of man where practically every other generation has failed foolish and misguided oh this is too much so which religious figure do you believe you are and how do you know so much about the nature of man you re almost too amusing to be worth the effort of crushing your pealike brain greater men than you haven t been able to do this the above most certainly will happen no matter how much you may wish to pretend otherwise gee you sound awfully sure of yourself methinks the bigot doth protest too much admit it you re scared shitless that what you ve been spoonfed all your sorry little life was wrong and you re trying to escape that fear by a blind faith that you know deep down is based in nothing nothing at all go ahead clutch your unfounded declaratives to your empty breast ignore the myriad of societies that have accepted homosexuality as equally valid or even mystical ignore the solid inescapable fact t hat we ve existed as long as humans have fear us go ahead laugh at us if it makes you feel better we both know you re just whistling in the dark there s one group that s stamped out whenever it appears in any form and that s the group of boneheads who fancy themselves morally superior you re in that group and you re slowly and steadily being stamped out preach while you can little man it won t be long moreover i m not your sweetheart that s the first truth you ve told so far i don t hate hets sir i m bisexual and i embrace man and womankind alike i have nothing against those who don t understand my love but you deny its potency and validity you would crush us all human beings to a one in your imagined divinity it s fools like you that stir my ire idiots with the small minds who can t think for themselves who know nothing about how the real world operates and who hate because they are told what to do and do it like sheep who hate everyone who refuses to be a sheep you re not part of the norm you re part of a minority yes a minority with supreme o erweening arrogance your hubris will topple because it always has because those with intelligence know it to be a clown s costume wow that was pretentious i sometimes wonder why i waste my talents on zeroes like you i really have no interest in continuing this effortless discussion after all this is for me the proverbial battle of wits with an unarmed opponent come back with some swords i e facts and we shall do battle till then begone from my sight drewcifer p s you were very entertaining however have you considered taking this on the road i hear escapism is back in
talk.politics.misc	re watergate was temper tantrums from the s in article apr pony ingres com garrett ingres com writes one of you said nixon didn t use the office of the presidency for personal gain this is a lie the senate committee issued an indictment that listed nixon s crimes the relevant ones were violating his oath of office abusing his presidential powers personal gain for his own monetary advantage i don t think anyone would dispute that he both violated his oath of office and abused his powers but that s not for personal gain nothing is as inevitable as a mistake whose time has garrett johnson clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re why not concentrate on child molesters in article c ql y avt hilbert cyprs rain com joec hilbert cyprs rain com joe cipale writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes however monogamous homosexual male sex is so rare that for practical purposes homosexuality spreads aids clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all you fucking homophobic moron what about iv drug use what about tainted blood what about multi sexual partners if you knew anything what about them those also spread aids where did i say anything different go back and read what i wrote the statement homosexuality spreads aids is not made false by the fact that there are other methods of spreading it as well about what you are talking about you would be dangerous as it is right now you are a persistent boil on the skin of humanity that needs to be lanced joe cipale typical homosexual response clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article apr hemlock cray com rja mahogany cray com russ anderson writes in article apr news cs brandeis edu st pip cc brandeis edu blort eeeep hwaaah writes actually i was rather surprised to see an article on this subject i e the new inproved survey saying that roughly of men are gay on the front page of the new york times recently i think it was on thurs april the headline was something to the effect of new survey finds of men are gay does anyone else see the difference between of men are gay and of men surveyed say they are gay does the ny times think that there is no one in the closet i see when survey after survey show we are supposed to believe one survey done with very poor assumptions with a very atypical population years ago when the society was far more repressed about homosexuality than it is now yeah right russ anderson disclaimer any statements are my own and do not reflect clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re welcome to police state usa has anybody heard an explanation of why the fbi was using tear gas in a mph wind doesn t seem like vry good tactics to me any other explanations lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective is worth iq points niels bohr or somebody like that
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in r seh qv network ucsd edu jschell sdcc ucsd edu ch rowl captain writes i find it very interesting that you say there will be million queers in the march on washington the largest figure i ve seen in the press is million and we all know how liberal the press is with their numbers for another thing of million is million not maybe that s where you got the million number also the number cited in the actual report is so that would be about million as for this march on washington i wonder how much the media is going to inflate the numbers this time last time for the pro abortion rally they more than doubled the actual number of people who showed up that and all the stories coming out of how the press slants the news really makes one wonder who s watching the watchers why are you all playing these pathetic number games the number of people showing up at the mow hardly constitutes the entire queer populace i doubt that it constitutes more than a handful of us i m queer and i won t be there simply because i don t have the time or the transportation what the hell makes you think the participants in the mow embody more than a minimum number face it people we re everywhere there are always more of us than you think our numbers are constantly growing not diminishing some of your children will grow up to join us hell some of my children may grow up to join us the best way to deal with this phenomenon is not to fear it and blind yourself to it but to realize that you have nothing to fear we re not perverts we re not dangerous we re just here and we re human just like you er most of you idiots like cramer and kaldis can rant all they like it won t do them one iota of good drewcifer p s i still can t get over the fact that some people actually believe that every queer in the u s would show up at the mow and that these numbers are meaningful and come to think of it what about those of us in other countries tree bi andrew d simchik schnopia as b uhura cc rochester edu treewater words weren t made for cowards happy rhodes
talk.politics.misc	re welcome to police state usa in article c si g hx dscomsa desy de hallam zeus desy de writes the above conveniently ignores the murder of four batf agents by the branch davidians in an unprovoked ambush more tripe deleted phill are you trying to convince everyone on the net that you are in fact an abject moron for some reason repeating the same rubbish over and over again may make something a fact in whatever backwater you are posting from but it doesn t wash here so save it michael lodman department of computer science engineering university of california san diego jlodman cs ucsd edu x if guns are outlawed only government outlaws will have guns
talk.politics.misc	rodney king was marine gay bashing in article c qo o ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com mark wilson writes in apr bsu ucs cmmiller leo bsuvc bsu edu writes sorry i didn t see him charge the cops i saw him trying to get away from people who were beating him i guess we each see what we want to see candace miller if this is what you saw then you did not see the start of the video when the vidoe starts king is lying on the ground surrounded by cops noone is beating him king then gets up and charges one of the officers powell while falling back the officer pulls out his nightstick and strikes king with it the blow appears to land near the shoulders of the head
talk.politics.misc	re if drugs should be legalized how was good neighbor dave o shea dos major panix com wrote wdstarr athena mit edu william december starr writes however legalizing it and just sticking some drugs in gas stations to be bought like cigarettes is just plain silly plus i have never heard of a recommended dosage for drugs like crack ecstasy chrystal meth and lsd the minute report said it worked with cocaine cigarettes pot and heroin or the government could adopt the radical and probably unamerican idea that citizens are free to live their lives as they wish and simply decriminalize cocaine marijuana heroin lsd etc please explain why the idea of allowing recreational drugs to be bought like cigarettes is just plain silly after all it works just fine for nicotine i m all in favor of drug legalization but i do see some problems with it my hope is that people disposed to doing so would simply overdose quickly and be done with it before making a mess of thisgs it s actually quite simple we sell drug use licenses to anybody over age who wants one costs and you re required to attend a week of night classes on the effects of drugs on the human body at the end of the class you sign an informed consent waiver acknowledging that you ve been told that drugs are bad for you but you want them anyway in doing so you giver up any right to state paid medical care for whatever might happen to you as a result of doing drugs or any right to collect welfare or unemployment should you lose your job as a result of using drugs you d also give up your right to drive a car anybody caught using drugs without a license has a choice pay a fine and accept a backdated drug user s license or go to prison ken mitchell the powers not delegated to the united states by the kmitchel netcom com constitution nor prohibited by it to the states are citrus heights ca reserved to the states respectively or to the people
talk.politics.misc	re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article apr rigel tamu edu gmw rigel tamu edu mr grinch writes more likely than most places when i was there the most important state issue was whether to have a state income tax or instead legalize a popular vice for fund raising and vice won a decisive victory jsh mr grinch p s now that he s safely dead i expect david koresh to become the hero of popular folk ballads and the atf to be generally equated with santa anna dead i saw david koresh at a local john paul morrison university of british columbia canada hey hey ho ho electrical engineering tax spend liberals jmorriso ee ubc ca ve jpm have got to go
talk.politics.misc	comment clinton reno batf and waco input amstex documentstyle amsppt pagewidth in magnification pageheight in title letter to the editor endtitle author matthew l fante endauthor date april enddate endtopmatter in a letter to the fbi david koresh said do you want me to pull back the heavens and show you my anger fear me the day standoff between federal agents and the branch davidians ended on april in what appeared to be a mass suicide by fire now that the multi million dollar standoff is over a few things remain cleaning up the mess and assigning blame from the onset of the april tear gas attacks by federal agents president clinton already started passing the buck by saying talk to the attorney general or the fbi i knew it was going to be done but the decision was it entirely theirs it they made the tactical decision enter attorney general janet reno after most of the branch davidians died reno said she took full responsibility for the decision i approved the plan she said adding that she did not advise him clinton as to the details in fact she told clinton that it was the best way to go as the fire was roaring through the branch davidian s compound clinton said that he was deeply sadened by the loss of life and in the same breath that the law enforcement agencies involved in the waco siege recommended the course of action pursued today later he went on to say i stand by that reno s decision how did this all begin at on february agents of the bureau of alcohol tobacco and firearms batf launched a full scale high profile assault on the branch davidian s compound this raid was much more than an assault on a group suspected of possessing illegal weapons the assault was a planned media circus used as a propaganda device of the batf to show their might and just purpose at the onset of the no knock raid gaggles of heavily armed batf agents made their way inside the compound without identifying themselves or state that they had a warrant until long after the shooting began silently the agents made their way to the compound s buildings and started their search by charging at the buildings and throwing concussion grenades and ordering the cult members to come out of the buildings if unknown persons dressed in black ninja costumes and combat fatigues were to attack you throwing grenades and brandishing firearms would you not assume that these people are criminals and attempt to defend yourself the tactics employed by the batf provoked the battle the initial assualt by the batf was not successful unfortunately lives were lost on both sides but had the assault been a success the liberal media would have praised the batf by showing the footage of batf agents carting away a bunch of gun wielding religious nuts of course any violation of the cult s rights would have been overlooked and the media would proclaim america s fortune in having super cop organizations like the batf that can systematically take out terroristic groups such as the branch davidians as far as i can see the batf and the fbi dropped the ball just like philadelphia did in the move crisis which left dead homeless and a city block razed it appears that the batf has adopted the shoot first tactic of no knock raids to execute search warrants don t let the batf convince you that the no knock raid was justified no knock assaults make sense when looking for say drugs that can easily be hidden or disposed of in a few seconds the batf was looking for illegal weapons not drugs that could be hidden or flushed down the toilet in a matter of a few seconds what ever happened to this is the police you are surrounded it this policy of no knock raids by federal and local agencies should be restricted further the use of military firepower against presumed innocent citizens is a very scary idea and is why the davidians were justified in using lethal force to ensure that their fourth ammendment rights the right of the people to be secure in their persons houses papers and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures are not denied noindent matthew l fante newline end matthew fante mlf lehigh edu for a good prime call webster street a public key is available bethlehem pa upon request
talk.politics.misc	re can t have it both ways news as enemy news as supporter in article optilink com walsh optilink com mark walsh writes from article qvampinnmhf darkstar ucsc edu by stephen orchid ucsc edu now which is it are you going to comdemn national media then turn around and use it to support some position you present seems somewhat contradictory doesn t it i believe that this is not contradictory on the basis that the quality of media reporting varies greatly based on the subject at hand the media has proven itself very accurate is the areas of presenting raw undisputed data one good example would be the weather page in which high and low temperatures of the previous day for a large number of locations are posting there is little evidence to show that they are in error i believe this true when we speak of physical data in the sense of pure science but when we speak of data that revolve around social sciences then we have to be careful the american media has failed us in its analysis of complex events however i m sure that we can come up with many news stories that have left us angry because so many facts have been ommitted cases that come to mind are the invasion of panama the war with iraq the disaster in waco the issues surrounding the acceptance of gays into the military the war on drugs and many others i quite agree but these are cases or news events that contain politics social science information sociology etc and at best are reflections of the group that reports them as you have pointed out it is difficult to report that the temperature was degrees when it was degrees and have people believe you the story that you bring to light was regarding the new sex survey while i m sure that due to lazyness some of the data was ommitted from the article i would venture to guess that the data that was presented did not deviate from the survey i do however think that it would be folly to have blind faith in a single newswriter s analysis of this data in this particular case there was little analysis and the reader was left to draw his her own convictions yes and no the survey presented according to mr cramer a value called the median which one used this makes us believe that of the males had plus sex partners and of the males had or less sex partners homosexuals are purported to make up only in this case the majority of people with plus sex partners are heterosexual it is my feeling that median was not the intended word usage but if it is then we have little evidence to support mr cramer claims about gay promiscuity hetero promiscuity many netters mr cramer included often forget that the american media are merely a number of businesses who s purpose in life is to make money for their owners and stockholders revenues come largely from advertisers who merely want maximum useful exposure per dollar the media is like fast food the quality of the food or of the reporting will improve only if the customers demand as such otherwise it is business as usual very good this is a point that i have tried to bring out and as any network news program will show you it is true the news media is a business and as such becomes skewed because of where its loyalties lie there is an old statement by a man and i cannot remember him or his statment exactly but it warns against the merger of business and news reporting because of the obvious consequences what master is news going to serve in the end the advertiser and the bias of the news group
talk.politics.misc	drugs and crime a new approach was re if drugs should be legalized wdstarr athena mit edu william december starr writes in article apr msuvx memst edu kebarnes msuvx memst edu said i m for creating a class of noncommercial drugs which would include the currently illegal ones which would be legal to possess grow produce but not to sell bomb the pushers back to the barter age and tax production too um why what s wrong with the act of selling recreational drugs even for mercenary reasons e g getting rich note by selling i mean selling the product to a consenting adult at a mutually agreeable price i point this out in an effort to pre emptively prevent this thread from getting sidetracked onto a flamefest about pushing drugs to schoolchildren or the like and why should the users be subjected to special taxation william december starr note this is a repost of my earlier response to mr starr which was not properly formatted apologies to those who ve seen the following before to explain my position on the war on drugs i offer this drugs and crime a new approach by ken barnes given that the trade in illegal drugs is responsible for much of the crime which afflicts our nation people who want drugs particularly people who are predisposed to addiction will find a way to get them whether or not they are legally available despite current law enforcement efforts drugs are readily available to those who want them addiction to drugs both legal and illegal is responsible for a significant drain on the productive resources of our country and this occurs in a variety of ways from the cocaine addicted babies who are unable to learn to the spread of disease among addicts to the tragic consequences of alcohol abuse and tobacco smoking a general economic principle of government is that whatever is subsidized you get more of and whatever is taxed you get less of to be most effective in confronting the nation s drug problem some way must be found to utilize these additional powers of government to make drug dealing and drug use less attractive while this country s current efforts to combat legal drugs have succeeded in some respects there is a greater awareness of the health consequences of smoking and designated driver programs have helped reduce drunk driving for example the same cannot be said for the war on illegal drugs there remains a core group of illegal drug users which support international networks of smugglers pushers growers processors kingpins and gangsters these networks and their marketing activities which include drive by shootings corrupting law enforcement authorities and smuggling weapons are directly or indirectly responsible for a large proportion of the crimes committed in our country every day clearly illegal drugs and rising crime are linked it takes only a moment s reflection to recognize how they are linked the link is money as with this country s failed effort to prohibit alcohol consumption a black market has been created in which greedy local monopolies like the gangsters of a bygone era have profited enormously from their illegal trade the victims of this trade include not only the innocent people unfortunate enough to be caught in the crossfire but i would argue the drug users themselves were it not for the black market and the violent monopoly of the drug lords drug users might not be the thieves robbers prostitutes and murderers they have become in order to pay the high prices the drug lords demand in the absence of the drug lords most would be i believe simply people with a problem either a moral problem or a medical problem but not a criminal problem let me be clear however i am not advocating that we let the criminals who have been preying on our society for these many years of prohibition off the hook on the contrary the new approach i advocate is one which would not result in either the government or private industry getting into the business of promoting crack cocaine or any other presently illegal drug for that matter neither is it an approach which sees law abiding citizens handing over more and more of their freedom and privacy in an effort to track down illegal drug users until the land of the free and the home of the brave looks like a police state here then is my proposal possession and use of all presently illegal drugs is decriminalized but buying and selling them remains illegal potheads can grow their own marijuana as many already do today other drug users can legally import their poison of choice as long as they pay the tariffs and a barter economy of drug experimenters develops because of the barter economy which supplies the drug users the black market profits that have so enriched the drug lords dwindle if these drugs can be obtained for free or next to nothing why buy them nevertheless there will be those who will seek to sell these noncommercial drugs even at relatively low prices therefore law enforcement activity is concentrated on those individuals who continue to buy and sell and also on the crimes committed by drug users too poor to afford even low prices but here is where the strategy begins to differentiate between the drug dealers the victimizers and the drug users their victims upon arrest for any crime suspects are permitted to choose whether or not they will undergo a drug test those who choose to cooperate are informed that upon conviction for the crime they are accused of if they are found to be a drug user they will be institutionalized until they are clean and only then will they begin to serve their sentence if they choose to cooperate and are already drug free they can begin to serve their sentence right away those who choose not to undergo the drug test and are convicted face stiffer fines and serve longer sentences institutionalization of drug using criminals serves several purposes drug using criminals and this includes drunk and or stoned drivers are separated from their sources of supply thus reducing the total number of drug users in society at large and consequently decreasing the demand for drugs on the street putting more of the remaining drug dealers out of business institutionalization provides an incentive for drug using criminals to straighten themselves out before becoming part of the general prison population while helping protect society from crime institutionalization could also serve to deter drug users from becoming criminals since drug using criminals unlike other criminals would be delayed prior to serving their sentences by the additional time it takes for them to sober up institutionalization of drug using criminals separate from the general prison population would also provide a closely monitored pool of addicts who could volunteer for research studies of new techniques and treatments for addictive disease with the potential to benefit both themselves and others dealers in illegal drugs are generally not drug users themselves and this is particularly true of the drug bosses or kingpins running large illicit organizations under this proposal dealers would be more readily identifiable since upon arrest they would presumably pass the drug test or else decline to take it in order to avoid having to explain why they are in possession of drugs when it is apparent they do not use them declining to take the test they would of course face stiffer penalties while each case of attempted sale of a noncommercial drug would have to stand on own its merits the outcome of a suspect s drug test could provide additional evidence for the prosecution just as cigarette taxes have contributed to the decline of smoking in our country by making cigarettes more costly while at the same time providing revenue for anti smoking campaigns noncommercial drugs should be taxed and the money generated should be used to combat their use enforcement of this tax should be on a voluntary basis however and should not be used as an excuse to infringe on the rights and privacy of noncommercial drug users since to do so would have the effect of reintroducing prohibition instead drug users will be encouraged to pay the tax by reminding them that if untaxed drugs are ever found in their possession during the course of routine police operations they will be required to pay the tax immediately or else forfeit their untaxed drugs to be destroyed if drug dealers are found to be selling noncommercial drugs on which taxes have not been paid they will face additional prosecution for evading the tax the strategy of adding tax evasion to drug dealing charges is already in use in some jurisdictions but its effectiveness is currently limited by the illegality of drug possession revenue from drug possession taxes and import tariffs would be used to fund anti drug advertising campaigns and provide support to private sector drug treatment programs for those unable to afford treatment taxpayer subsidies to all drug producers must be ended federal support of tobacco farming is both immoral and wasteful in this era of tight budgets and the marijuana crops grown illicitly on federal lands in many states must likewise be eliminated while my proposal would have the effect of permitting the use of what are now illegal drugs it would hold the users of all drugs responsible for their actions and i believe would reduce the harm drugs have on our society particularly the crime caused by the illegal drug trade so long as we remain a free nation with relatively porous borders and freedom for our citizens to travel we will always have a drug problem whether it takes the form of heroin addicts dying in abandoned buildings drunk drivers killing and maiming others on our streets or emphysema patients struggling for breath after a lifetime of smoking the results are the same needless suffering and death as a society we must recognize that while our society permits us to harm ourselves with drugs as we are already doing regardless of the drug laws we must take a stand against the harm that drugs and drug users cause to others we must particularly oppose the vicious and violent cartels which prey on the weakness of drug users by taking the profits out of their deadly trade my proposal goes a long way towards shutting down these powerful criminal organizations the question of whether drug use is a moral or medical problem depends on which group of drug users you re talking about different drugs have different effects and some are more addictive than others the addictiveness of a drug also often varies between individuals and so we have some people who can drink alcohol in moderation while others find they cannot resist the bottle nicotine which former surgeon general c everett koop declared to be as addicting as heroin is a legal drug with known harmful effects and while some people can stop smoking by willpower alone others continue to smoke even after treatment for lung cancer for those individuals who can stop taking drugs on their own we may argue that because they have chosen to use them this represents a moral failure on their part or an unwillingness to face the difficulties of life but for the addicts while they may have chosen to use drugs the first time by the time they discover their addiction it is too late we cannot hold them responsible for their disease any more than we would blame someone who is drowning for an inability to swim perhaps they should have known not to go near the water or perhaps someone should have warned them of the danger but in their present circumstances warnings will not help neither does it help for the drug dealers on the shore to be tossing them weights standard disclaimer x dna ken barnes lifesci bldg conservative libertarians kebarnes memstvx memst edu for pro balance memphis tn compuserve com i find television very educating every time somebody turns on the set i go into the other room and read a book groucho marx
talk.politics.misc	re eight myths about national health insurance pt ii in article apr news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes v pxgt ubvmsb cc buffalo edu daniel b case writes also in the april globe and mail there was a letter from the director of trauma services at st michael s hospital in toronto responding to an article on a study comparing heart surgery in california and canada in which some canadian doctor worried that that study which was in the nejm i think noted that the frequency of heart surgery on patients over seventy increase with income in california i guess richer people have more heart disease in california whereas the frequency of surgery on patients over seventy in canada was relatively uniform across income distribution heart surgery was more frequent in california but mortality and outcomes were essentially the same american analysts would seize on the results as proof that canada rationed vital services the doctor i can t recall his name said that canada is rationing vital services as any physician can plainly see he said that a system in which people are refused treatment because they can t afford it is no different from a system in which people are refused treatment because the government can t afford it as a result of deliberate underfunding of the health insurance plan in fairness he did say that both the us and canadian systems are in the same situation the ndp cleaning up a tory spending mess and just when i thought i understood canadian politics there was one about a group of doctors in calgary who have opened canada s first us style mri clinic as an alternative to the provincially owned one it s about time i ve ragged on my own doctor friends as to why they don t invest in their own private practices in the end it s their money but they choose to spend it on america s cup pipedreams and that s none of my business as for provincially owned for sure it s against the law in canada for governments to be directly involved in the provision of health care except in the military or native reser vations what that term actually means is that the facility gets by on public grants to meet shortfall from lack of use no kidding medical practice itself is much more conservative up north my own best friend did two clerkships at the mayo clinic in rochester mn and is no stranger to high tech medicine but his boat comes first there were some people expressing concern that it was the first wedge of two tiered health care and that it might violate the canada health act no it s probably socialist whiners who are offended that we have private practices and always have they can all take cash anyways so why not have a particular facility the canadian big government mentality often imagines government where it does not even exist the only potential problem i see with the private mri facilty in calgary is the self referral problem to the facility for the doctors who have a financial interest in it which is basically unethical but in canada because of our small population there is likely only to be a few private facilities involving only a small number of doctors and thus i don t think the self referral problem which is an epidemic in the us could ever get out of hand here look nobody stopped the clinic when they planned on the mri nobody stopped them when they bought it nobody seems to be stopping them from using it either much ado about nothing thank goodness that hockey playoffs have started it is an experiment that will be certainly be watched carefully while it seemed currently unjustified there was one anecdote told by the head of the partnership to demonstrate the mri he showed an image of an injured knee which happened to belong to the manager of the bank who approved the loan he said that without it the guy might have had to wait a month or more at the provincial mri then another length of time for treatment after which the muscles would have atrophied and rehabilitation would have been that much harder if that isn t the first whiff of two tiers i don t know what is i m certain there is exaggeration somewhere because the gao study of canada cited often on usenet did not find access to mri to be a problem i ll bet the doctor is relying on people having listened to american trash talk on cable so that he can puff his chest a bit there are already a few treatment regimens for knee injuries without relying on mri unfortunately i ve had a few and i m not a banker what likely happened is the sponsors of the private mri which include doctors anticipated that alberta would need more mri s and instead of waiting for the health planners to realize they needed another one or two saw a business opportunity where they would have a secure business from the public insurance side of things and they could supplement people and businesses who want to pay cash gerald
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage piatt gdc com gary piatt writes clayton cramer cramer optilink com wrote when you and the rest of the homosexual community pass laws to impose your moral codes on me by requiring me to hire rent to or otherwise associate with a homosexual against my will yes you are in my face until homosexuals stop trying to impose their morals on me i will be in your face about this ahh what s good for the goose is not necessarily what s good for the gander you don t want homosexuals to impose their moral codes such diabolical ideas as equal rights on you yet you are willing to impose your moral codes on them do i detect a double standard what exactly does the american constitution say about the right to association homosexuals whether clayton likes it or not are as much members of society as he is as such they have the right to participate and have an equal opportunity to pursue their goals no one is saying that clayton should be forced to associate with queerfolk in his private life one suspects the gays in question would object also but by proclaiming the general right not to associate with them in the public sphere which includes housing hiring etc he s giving his right to non association priority over their rights to equal access to opportunity historically people can associate publically with disliked groups with very little ill effect however cutting a group off from normal commerce has a severe impact on their lives clayton why exactly should your right to non association in the public sphere take priority over homosexual s rights to equal opportunity tony quirke wellington new zealand quirke a kosmos wcc govt nz usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article c t s nz murdoch acc virginia edu lfoard hopper virginia edu lawrence c foard writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article c k lc cyf murdoch acc virginia edu lfoard hopper virginia edu lawrence c foard writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes from the santa rosa cal press democrat april p b male sex survey gay activity low a new natonal study on male sexual behavior the most thorough examination of american men s sexual practices published since the kinsey report more than four decades ago shows about percent of the men surveyed had engaged in homosexual sex and percent considered themselves exclusively homosexual the politicians will have plenty to be scared of in one week be it or it will be interesting to see the reaction when million queers gather in washington dc after all if there are only million of us then this is an event unprecidented in history but many of the people who will be marching aren t homosexuals but other members of the leftist agenda i m sure there will be a few non queers but the vast majority are queer i find it very interesting that you say there will be million queers in the march on washington the largest figure i ve seen in the press is million and we all know how liberal the press is with their numbers for another thing of million is million not maybe that s where you got the million number also the number cited in the actual report is so that would be about million as for this march on washington i wonder how much the media is going to inflate the numbers this time last time for the pro abortion rally they more than doubled the actual number of people who showed up that and all the stories coming out of how the press slants the news really makes one wonder who s watching the watchers bcnu jon schell life is something to do when you can t the master get to sleep fran lebowitz tm ucsd edu anything that is good and useful is jhschell ucsd edu made of chocolate fortune jonschell aol com re boot to the head me no one else would be crazy enough to claim these opinions
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article apr cs nott ac uk eczcaw mips nott ac uk a wainwright writes in article f zb b w w codewks nacjack gen nz system codewks nacjack gen nz wayne mcdougall writes hmmm what statistics are these can you offer any references the only studies i ve seen indicate a higher proportion of homosexuals in prison than in the general population but i don t think that allows for the default you refer to prison is not a normal situation but i haven t seen anything that suggests that the default proportion is lower than in the general population although it seems plausible anyway as i say can you provide any references is this an arguement against or for or simply a statement of agreeance disagreeance the fact that there are more homosexuals in prison does not mean that homosexuals are immoral and more liable to commit crime and one must remember that prison is not necessarily a reflection of the type of people who are criminals what are the statistics for unsolved crime there is also the question of cause and effect lock a mostly straight guy up for years with only guys ask ten years later if he has ever had sex with a guy closing your eyes and pretending its a girl sucking you still counts as sex with a guy on the survey join the pythagorean reform church repent of your evil irrational numbers and bean eating ways accept into your heart call the pythagorean reform church bbs at
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article apr news cs brandeis edu st pip cc brandeis edu blort eeeep hwaaah writes wouldn t one expect more heterosexual men than gay men to be promiscuous simply due to a larger group of potential partners just a thought matt you might except that gay men are much more promiscuous than straight men which shows how damaged and screwed up gay men are your starting to sound like a little child who wants ice cream if you kick and scream enough you think people will believe you sorry proof by vigorous ascertion doesn t hold any water i can insist that cats are dogs all day it doesn t make it so join the pythagorean reform church repent of your evil irrational numbers and bean eating ways accept into your heart call the pythagorean reform church bbs at
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article apr romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes in article apr galileo cc rochester edu as b uhura cc rochester edu some caifone writes where they belong don t count on it sweetheart oh i can t do anything but count on it after all it is inevitable for it is part of the natural order of things wrong throughout history nature has always asserted itself quite true and evolution made decided that homosexuality had a place otherwise it would have disappeared quite quickly there are very few animals which do not exhibit homosexual behavior it has been here before humans existed and will be here after the human race has gone don t be so arrogant as to assume that this foolish and misguided generation can change the nature of man where practically every other generation has failed quite true years of religious idiocy have not changed the nature of man you tried to rid yourselves of us for years and failed join the pythagorean reform church repent of your evil irrational numbers and bean eating ways accept into your heart call the pythagorean reform church bbs at
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage on apr gmt theodore a kaldis observed as b uhura cc rochester edu some caifone writes because if she heard thankfully you got the gender right for i am not a deviant bigots aren t classified as deviants how sad how disparaging you are towards political minorities sexual deviants do not comprise a political minorit y so what s this i hear about a march on washington assuming you are still considering homosexuality and bisexuality as subsets of sexual deviants and if she had any shred of self respect she d be out the door i only associate with girls who do indeed have self respect i trust that many self respecting women might take some sort of offense to your use of the term girls in the above sentence michael d adams starowl a i rahul net enterprise alabama always listen to experts they ll tell you what can t be done and why then do it lazarus long robert heinlein
talk.politics.misc	re can i get your meds in article c pyab wj wetware com drieux wetware com drieux just drieux writes in article hirama hiram edu i went and stepped in it in article q sddinn iq senator bedfellow mit edu wdstarr athena mit edu william december starr writes i never knew that soldiers were supposed to salute any civilians except for the commander in chief the cinc is not a civillian ding ding planet earth calling i will agree that cincpac and cinclant are not civilians but the cinc is still the president and unless things have changed a whole lot with the arrival of the billaryklintonklique i don t recall as how the current president gots himself much more than civilian status as far as a member of the armed forces is concerned the president is whatever the h ll he wants to be all of them recently have rather insisted on being treated as something other than a mere civilian if it moves salute it if it don t pick it up if you can t pick it up paint it so if hilary were asleep at the time ciao drieux nothing personal jeff but i like living in countries where the head of state is a civilian it sorta limits the habit of using the military as the first choice for solving domestic problems i like living in a country where the head of state is not a military officer too but this point about not using the military as the first choice for solving domestic problems didn t they go after these branch davidians with a tank after all jeffrey s medkeff bitnet medkeffjs hiramb po box internet medkeffjs hiramb hiram edu hiram oh pale ebenezer thought it wrong to fight but u s a roaring bill who killed him thought it right
talk.politics.misc	re janet reno killed the waco children an cleveland freenet edu broward horne writes aside from the fact that i disagree w you she did offer to resign and the president rejected the offer she was willing to take responsibility and the president has the balls enough to stand by a decision or the contempt to ignore it yup that was quite contemptuous of the president to make a decision that disagree with tim smith
talk.politics.misc	re are americans sexually repressed in article apr a cs okstate edu kennejs a cs okstate edu kennedy james scot writes recent studies have shown that the number of men who have engaged in homosexual activities in the last decade is and the number of men who are exclusively homosexual is these figures are much less than those that came from earlier studies that showed that homosexuality among men is a lot higher so what can we deduce from these figures are there a lot less male homosexuals than there used to be or are men perhaps women too not as honest as they used to be about there sexuality presumably the people that were polled in you mean in the s men and women were much more open about their homosexuality than today want to try that one again this survey were assured of their anonymnity so they should have answered the questions honestly i suppose however it could be that gays feel so repressed and denigrated by society that they didn t feel that they could be forthcoming about there sexuality in something like a survey if this true then is it possible that there is a lot more gays out there than we are led to believe perhaps if americans were more open about there sexuality i think most americans aren t then we might discover that there are really quite a few more people out there who are orientated toward the same sex men and women included i d venture a guess that there is a lot of people out there who have considered having a relationship with someone of the same sex at some point in there life maybe they didn t take their longings seriously but this doesn t make these longings any less valid therefore if americans weren t so repressed about their sexuality in general as i believe they may be then we d see a lot more people coming out of the closet you mean ignore study after study so that we can continue to accept a study kinsey s that is obviously wrong as for myself i m a heterosexual and i ve never considered having sex with another man that s just the way i am i could have just as easily of been gay i suppose one of the big debates about homosexuality is whether or not it s a type of behavior that is learned or if one is just born that way imho the more likely explanation is that it s some combination of the two based on what besides your own warm fuzzy feelings here s something to ponder upon have any of you gay bashers out there ever considered that homosexuals probably deem their sexual orientation as being a state of affairs that is just as much an intrinsic and natural part of their life as heterosexuals do about their own sexuality in other words someone who is truly alcoholics share that feeling until they hit bottom gay may not be able to live any other way even if they date someone of the opposite sex or get married in their heart they are still a homosexual likewise if someone who is truly heterosexual forms a relationship with someone of the same sex then they are still a heterosexual even though outward appearances may suggest otherwise scott kennedy brewer and patriot unless of course the problem is that homosexuality is a form of mental disorder caused by childhood sexual abuse as a number of recent works suggest if homosexuals would stop using the government to impose their morality on others antidiscrimination laws and leave our children alone i wouldn t care in the least what they did in private but until they get over the liberal notion that the proper role of government is to tell peaceful people how to live i have no choice but to continue to point out that homosexuality is not an alternative lifestyle but a sickness before david koresh is a cheap thug who interprets the bible through the barrel of a gun atf spokesman after the atf is a cheap thug who interprets the constitution through the barrel of a gun me good signature clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article apr nwnexus wa com elf halcyon com elf sternberg writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy writes actually i bet you more gay bi men are as not as promiscuous as gay men because more of them could have the option of living a straight life and with social pressures probably would at least try geez where have you been ryan i proposed this theory months ago let s take it one step further even if as the surveys show up to of all men have had a homosexual encounter then there must cite a survey other than the obviously bogus kinsey studies be an even larger percentage of people who have had homosexual erotic fantasies but if less than of the population is gay what can we say about these people who don t identify as gay but have demonstrated gay potential obviously a large chunk of these people chose or more accurately were forced to choose by force of religion and social sanction to put those feelings aside to be heterosexual obviously cramer and kaldis fall into this category i can t speak for kaldis but force of religion and social sanction played no part in my sexual preferences neither had much influence on me as a teenager elf halcyon com elf sternberg clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article qpaujinnecq lynx unm edu bevans carina unm edu mathemagician writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes a new natonal study on male sexual behavior the most thorough examination of american men s sexual practices published since the kinsey report more than four decades ago right off the bat this information is flawed most throrough i m sorry but masters johnson put out a report within the past few years the kinsey institute has been quite active since it was founded oh so many years ago they too recently put out a new report on sexuality i was quoting a news story i have no idea why they claim this was the most through examination shows about percent of the men surveyed had engaged in homosexual sex and percent considered themselves exclusively homosexual i hate to be picky but let s do the math if we take the cities of new york city and los angeles alone we can find approximately million gay people making about million gay men what even in san francisco the dept of public health estimates that only of the male population is gay what you are claiming is that of the million people in the nyc and la areas that more than are gay what is the source of your numbers keep in mind that attempts by cdc to determine homosexual percentage in american cities have given numbers of the american male population is about million so what this study says is that all gay males live in new york city or los angeles and about half a million people are lying about being gay something smells funny yes your million number smells funny brian evans bad mood bad mood sure i m in a bad mood clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re once more into the breach in article pdb kilimanjaro jpl nasa gov pdb ipl jpl nasa gov paul bartholomew writes mr cramer i am still waiting for your response to my requests regarding the information you claim to have i respectfully request that you either provide the information or withdraw the various assertions you make below item number in a previous posting you stated that you had found overwhelming support for child molestation in soc motss you have finally responded to this one i have read your complete file of postings to soc motss and to put it bluntly it does not support your assertion in short this claim is bogus thank you for confirming this all those postings in defense of adults having sex with children and you just choose to claim that they don t say anything of the sort there s no point in discussing this any further then you are clearly a liar without morals of any sort prepared to justify child molestation clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re employment was re why not concentrate on child molesters in article apr tijc uucp pjs tijc uucp paul schmidt writes sys exnet co uk xavier gallagher writes so what does this prove i do not object to property ownership i just think property ownership should be limited to what an individual person family needs i do not need acres to survive i need about acres at most and could get by on less i argue that by having all property tied up and thus cutting people off form the basic level of subsistance that the property owners must bribe the rest of us to respect their ownership rights by providing alternative means of subsistance when we are expected to give these peoperty owners lets call them thieves bribes in order to be able to subsists then we have a sick situation the property owners are then parasites i want people to be able to live happy and prosperous lives property owners cannot maintain a monopoly in the free enterprise system unless they have help from a coercive government when a few land owners get together and try to control all the land without selling land prices will go up at some point it will be to the advantage of the land owner to sell some of his property trying to put a group of people to distribute land fairly would give them monopoly control over the land and would have the consequences you speak of let s keep the land out of the grasp of a monopoly and let it exist in the free market it s already in the hands of a monopoly of the rich because of capitalism of land other than government land saved for posterity and the eco system as well as government function the remaining land is owned by a smaller percentage of the people than ever before the game of capitalism is almost won the game has only to be declared over and we will have to take matters into our own hands and redistribute it again fairly or else be enslaved in return for a place to live here in central california already fewer than own all the property and of them own of it that s twice what it was twenty years ago rents are so high that you pay of your income for rent if you just have a mcjob all you can afford is one room if that some of minimum wage workers are homeless unless you both have degrees in technical fields and are working in them in the midst of unemployment in high tech jobs you will never own anything but a used car if you choose to have more than one child and everywhere else you could afford there are no jobs the only way to get there is to save and not consume any more than you have to clothing used food poor no movies no entertainment ect for about five to seven years and then if you ve saved if you can get together that much and that s ignoring your kids and working two jobs then you can buy a home in arkansas or missouri outright and live somewhere where they flood every other year that s an exaggeration if you pay close attention to the flood lines on other people s houses and find a sturdy hill then you can buy one up there also buy a rowboat missouri s not so bad if you like the sensation of sleeping in a sweatbox in summer and your car freezing solid in winter they really do put those heaters into the dipstick hole to keep them warm enough to start with ether shit kill the rich and redistribute the livable property kill all of them rsw i want people to be able to work and gain a basic subsistance and more is there a workable system for what you suggest i am always looking for improvements on the way we can coexist in this world and will give people happy meaningful lives where each individual can reach their highest potential are you asking for the forced redistribution of land any system i imagine will lead to unfairnes pollution over popullation and land mismanagement if you know of such a system please describe it please be specific since my imagination cannot comprehend such a system specifics that i am interested in does someone get land assigned them when they are born what happens to someone s land when they die can they pass it on to their children can someone sell land can someone leaase their land what governmental restrictions will be put on land use who will administer such a system how much will it cost to administer such a system i know that this is alot to ask and will understand if you do not have the time to answer these questions i think i will be better able to understand what you are proposing if you can answer these quesitons paul schmidt advocates for self government davy crockett chapter president the land is simply granted to people who live on it now extra is kept for the future you get to stay where you are without paying rent land that supports others becomes property of the state farmers are welcome to plant crops that people need according to demand and ability and soil quality if you want to grow sourgum because you always did and you aren t doing a good job then we let another farmer grow sorghum and you grow something else when people die the land they were entitled to use goes into the public holdings no one can sell land but they can trade places with anybody no one can lease land the government will locally distribute the use of the land not used for residences residences that are insufficient to the families living there can be traded to the public for a larger house and yard according to need and availability the local land council who vow to live on their land till death to avoid profit ties will decide fairness subject to review by the state and federal land councils it will cost no more than any fucking thing costs now with fucking assed rent going down a deep dark hole to the owners anyone can submit a request for a larger house or land to start a business on depending on a valid business plan and community needs heavy equipment is subject to seizure for the public good or as needed heavy equipment operators are encouraged to keep and maintain their own machine and to operate it at a reasonable salary in service to the community companies who own many machines are to be divided among the appropriate equipment operators and the rest to be let to valid operators on a need basis cost of upkeep is charged a guild of heavy machine operators is recognized for safety and training s sake their council is a subcouncil to the community council etc etc etc it isn t so hard to think of a better system than we have all you have to do is realize that the system we have now is not sacrosanct in fact it s a rigged game that steals you blind and is the most unfair any system could be already the trick is to realize that the old rich have been making the rules behind your back and that it s time to kick them off the merry go round tax the rich to death they are the ones that converted your s school lunch program into the joke it is today they are the ones who always cut education they are the ones who always raise the rent when you get a raise they are the ones who should be not just dislodged but killed for their abuse i have trouble justifying the death penalty for a poor kid who killed and didn t know why not i have no trouble justifying the death penalty for the rich who steal countless human lives to feed their greed have you paid rent most of your life then you have been enslaved percentage wise most of your life we used to be serfs now we are called renters and we are still enslaved to somebody who claims to own land they don t use and make us pay them for it when they did nothing to own it most rents in california are enough to buy the apartment house paynthe taxes and the insurance and have a little left over to travel with i have seen the books i know what my landlord pays and to whom i know what i pay her i am being forced to buy her a building and then i will be let out at the other end with nothing when i had as much right as her to live on this planet and her child will have the money to likewise enslave my child i hope i find out when i am going to die i can make things just a little happier form me to be able to destroy her life as she destroyed mine and maybe i can take a few other landlords with me and their heirs that would be worth it then to be able to die before they can do anything to me that s a poor man s dream sleep tight bastard landlords you don t know the trouble you are buying yourself as you sleep on my heirs money in your mattress rsw richard steven walz rstevew deeptht armory com maple street without safe and free abortion women are santa cruz ca organ surrogates to unwanted parasites real men would never accept organ slavery and will protect women
talk.politics.misc	re why not concentrate on child molesters from article c n x esj murdoch acc virginia edu by gsh w fermi clas virginia edu greg hennessy in article optilink com walsh optilink com mark walsh writes there is a big difference between running one s business affairs and actively ripping people off and charging homosexuals more becuase people think that aids is a gay disease is actively ripping people off really i thought that insurance companies hired all of their actuarial staffs to determine the risks correlated with all groups of people and that gays are more likely to have aids than are those of other sexual orientations if i am wrong about this correlation please correct me my auto insurance company charges me up the wazoo because i am a young male with a very high performance car i always thought that this was based on nhtsa and other statistical data rather than bigotry and hatred for young men with fast cars of course with the proper government intervention we could force the insurance companies to pretend that young men with fast cars are just the same as everyone else mark walsh walsh optilink uucp uunet optilink walsh amateur radio km xu wx k aol bigcookie aol com uscf l what me worry william m gaines i m gonna crush you andre the giant
talk.politics.misc	re why not concentrate on child molesters in article c og h de exnet co uk sys exnet co uk xavier gallagher writes well the obvious point to make is would straight men fuck like rabbits if the oppertunity presented itself i reckon any man would go wildly promiscuous if presented with a huge variety of willing partners if true and if gays were the same as straights except for sexual preference i would imagine that gays would have much less sex than straights because the available pool for dates is less than one tenth what it is for straights somebody correct flame me please mark walsh walsh optilink uucp uunet optilink walsh amateur radio km xu wx k aol bigcookie aol com uscf l what me worry william m gaines i m gonna crush you andre the giant
talk.politics.misc	vietnam deja vu the waco whacko bar b q caused me to remember an official explanation from the vietnam war the s liberal version is it was necessary to incinerate the children in order to save them clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	was kinsey a fake and a pervert in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article apr nwnexus wa com elf halcyon com elf sternberg writes geez where have you been ryan i proposed this theory months ago let s take it one step further even if as the surveys show up to of all men have had a homosexual encounter then there must cite a survey other than the obviously bogus kinsey studies granted pomeroy bell weinberg national institute of mental health paper patterns of adjusment in deviant populations cited as part of the national institute of mental health task force on homosexuality pomery concluded the kinsey statistic of is probably higher than is realistic according to these estimates is a more realistic figure i went out and bought lots of bell weinberg this weekend can you tell also the janus report on sexual behavior samuel s janus ph d and cynthia l janus m d john wiley sons pub has the following table have you ever had a homosexual experience men women n yes no table how often have you had homosexual contact men women n a once b occasionally c frequently d ongoing active c d of is this number is consistent with kinsey pomery gebard bell weinberg and rice in the finding that of the male population is actively homosexual with an further breakdown bell wienberg of exclusively so and self identifying themselves as bisexuals pp as for debunking kinsey the following article is an important lesson for everyone to read was kinsey a fake and a pervert by philip nobile far out on the grassy knoll of sexology there is a cult of prochastity researchers who claim that the late alfred kinsey was a secret sex criminal a hoosier dr mengele who bent his numbers toward the bisexual and the bizarre in a grand conspiracy to queer the nation and usher in an era of free sex with kids but what really riles these critics is kinsey s towerin cultural influence his bestselling surveys sexual behavior in the human male and sexual behavior in the human female tore the sheets off the country s erogenous zones and undermined midcentury morals his charts and graphs based on detailed histories of men and women demonstrated that practices generally considered rare and or abnormal masturbation extramarital relations homosexuality and even barnyard bestiality were as american as strawberry shortcake yet for a hard core of these heterosexual supremacists aided and abetted by pat buchanan and the religious right the zoology professor from indiana university remains the evil genius behind the sex revolution and a target for character assassination judith reisman the prosecution s expert witness at the mapplethorpe trial in cincinnati is the leader of the anti kinsey revisionists as well as his inspector javert in during a radio interview with pat buchanan in washington reisman accused kinsey of having been inolved in the vicious genital torture of hundreds of children she speculated that he kidnapped and drugged ghetto boys in order to carry out clandestine orgasm tests now seven years later reisman has revived her charges in a different book titled kinsey sex and fraud just released by the small and religiously oriented huntington house in lafayette louisiana her coauthor is ed eichel a manhattan psychotherapist who has invented a new style of intromission the coital alignment technique that supposedly triggers simultaneous orgasm with considerable regularity and thereby increases compatibilty between the sexes in the book eichel contends that kinsey deliberately cooked the gay stats because being an oddball himself he wanted to advance the denormalization of heterosexuality if the authors are right then the world famous kinsey reports are as the introduction boldly asserts the most egregious example of scientific deception in this century and if they are wrong kinsey sex and fraud is a shameful smear despite the less than stellar credentials of kinsey s detractors legends are not what they used to be martin luther king may have committed plagiarism bruno bettelheim slapped young mental patients around father bruce ritter the founder of covenant house preyed on runaway boys closer to kinsey masters and johnson have been disgraced for faking it in one way or another so it should not surprise anybody that kinsey who filmed strange people having sex in his attic may have had skeletons in the closet the problem is that reisman does not seem to have the intellectual prowess to pull off the job as a thinker the woman is no madame curie the year old former songwriter for captain kangaroo has little professional standing no current university position and no peer review publications though her creative resume was padded with phantom accomplishments for instance it listed a book as her own take back the night women on pornography that was actually written and edited by others then there is her ph d in speech communication from cleveland s case western reserve university although reisman has no bachelor s degree case granted her a master s in and a doctorate in her dissertation was on the commentaries of a local octagenarian tv commentator but on the resume reisman gave this piece of scholarship a fancy hautes etudes moniker to wit the application of aristotelian and systems analytic theory to mass media effects when reisman burst into prominence on buchanan s program it was love at first sight for al regnery the outwardly anti porn head of juvenile justice and delinquency prevention in ed meese s justice department regnery was a young law and order conservative and amateur social philosopher who wanted to help change the sexual climate of the united states after reisman s sensational radio session the sexual equivalent of joe mccarthy s wheeling speech regnery summoned her to meetings to discuss mutual interests first he tried to shovel her for a quasi frankenstein study that was going to measure the brain chemicals of men and boys who looked at arousing photographs guffaws on capitol hill killed the original proposal but in govemment money went to reisman anyway for plan b a probe of child images in the cartoons playboy penthouse and hust ler incredibly this grant surpassed the entire budget of the attorney general s pornography commission when the overpriced and oversold project was completed in it was immediately shelved by an embarrassed justice department that spring regnery resigned from his post only days before the new republic carried this admission that he had kept porno magazines around the house notwithstanding the six figure humiliation reisman went on to scratch out a niche on the ioony right as the darling of the sex cranks she deplores subversive phenomena like shaved genitalia in men s magazines and blames aids on gays kinsey sex and fraud is reisman s latest grasp for respectability pat buchanan of course is putting his krugerrands on reisman s ultimate vindication this book is social dynamite he says in a blurb an the front cover he especially liked the antigay parts smacking his lips in his syndicated column he declared it may just blow the sewer cap off kinsey s monumental reputation reestablish homosexuality as a in aberration expose the gay rights movement as a paper tiger and even put at risk the enormous sex industry built upon dr kinsey s research the blockbuster charge at the heart of the cluttered and repetilive j accuse is that kinsey was a sex mad pedophile who molested little boys in nazi type experiments and recorded their orgasms in his male volume a similar charge was first recited at the fifth world conference on sexology in jerusalem in to no effect before being recycled by reisman for buchanan in washington in here is how reisman and eichel repackaged the mengele business in kinsey sex and fraud mengele like scientific experiments on infants and children were the basis for kinsey s conclusions on childhood sexuality somewhere and sometime in the course of the project kinsey appears to have directed experimental sex research on several hundred children aged from two months to almost years this of course would implicate kinsey and his team in promoting and perhaps participating in the criminal activity in the opinion of this book s authors that is exactly how part of kinsey s child sexuality research took place donning his psychohistorian s cap and citing an fbi manual on child molesters as a guide eichel casually diagnoses kinsey as a homosexual pedophile with the perfect motive for doing exactly as reisman said kinsey placed himself in professional and nonprofessional positions where he had access to young boys such as y m c a camp counselor boys club leader and boy scout leader activities he kept up during his college and graduate yeaers and even after his marriage as crude as his analysis seems eichel was more than happy to elaborate even further in a recent phone interview if you ve ever been around boy lovers pedophiles they are absolutely compulsive he averred everything in his life is directed at getting children i didn t mention this in our book but the caption under kinsey s high school picture was a quote from hamlet man delights me not no sic nor woman neither what do you think they were picking up on before weighing what reisman and eichel pass off as proof of kinsey s sex crimes something must be said about kinsey s scientific modus operandi he was a fiendish collector as a young zoologist with a d sc from harvard he collected million gall wasps and million related insects when he switched to sex exploration after agreeing to teach a marriage course at indiana university in he was no less curious or acquisitive nothing that mammals did in the realm of reproduction was foreign to him he compiled masses of erotic materials including toilet wall inscriptions from male and female johns that highlighted differences in sexual psychology and flms of mating in species of animals that showed an amazing similarity in oral eroticism naturally the sexual response of children the genesis of eros fascinated him it was impossible to understand the sexual behaviors of adults without examining their origins and so with the fervor of his bughunting days kinsey collected information about kids though even his worst enemies until reisman and eichel refrained from linking him personally to his data on preadolescent sex kinsey said plainly in the male volume that he got information on the sex life of young boys from people who had sex with them some of these adults are technically trained persons who have kept diaries or other records which have been put at our disposal although he gathered much boyhood data from the memories of his subjects and the observations of parents and nursery school teachers he treated the documentary materia of the pedophiles as pure gold there was nothing like it in the literature kinsey s main source a year old govemment worker was also the most unforgettable character he had ever met this man whose history took hours to log had sex with over boys and girls as well as of family members including his father and grandmother a sexual hobbyist and passionate record keeper he gave kinsey detailed accounts of orgasms that he observed in preadolescent boys relying on the man s meticulous research which involved following some boys for as long as years kinsey was able to identify for the first time six distinct types of male orgasm some of which involved violent contortions at the peak of release as well as the speed and the capacity of climax what freud had only imagined about childhood sexuality kinsey had reported as fact children were indeed erotic beings from the cradle these data on the sexual activities of younger male provide an important substantiation of the freudian view of sexuality as a component that is present in the human animal from earliest infancy he concluded without raising eyebrows in then along came judith reisman ignorng the legitimacy of kinsey s inquiry she beheld the ghost of mengele in bloomington she was appalled by the thought of infant ecstasy and read torture in the portrayals of prepubertal orgasm rendered by the government worker and she dared to say that kinsey was a sex criminal well was he or wasn t he let s go to the text there is no evidence in kinsey sex and fraud no witnesses no paper noteven a trace of hearsay that implicates kinsey in either planning or partaking in child sex experiments after years on the trail reisman has uncovered just two sources to back up her original charge amazingly enough kinsey himself and wardell pomeroy kinsey s coauthor on both reports to whom reisman has never spoken it turns out that her whole case rests on a few passages in the male volume iand in pomeroy s biography titled dr kinsey and the institute for sex research after frisking every the and and in both books reisman came up with what she believes are smoking sentences to establish kinsey s alleged role in the planning she says that there is a hint in the fifth chapter of the male volume that kinsey directed the orgasm studies on kids she cites his tell tale quote from a critic of armchair psychoanalysis demanding that writers test their theories by empirical study and statistical procedures then she combines this quote with kinsey s statement that some of the observations of his pedophile sources were continued over periods of months or years until the individuals were old enough to make it certain that true orgasm was involved putting two and two together kinsey s empiricism and lengthy experimentation she arrives at her hint but realizing this dog would not hunt she devoted but a single paragraph to kinsey s supposed planning before shifting to the issue of his personal involvement as for the alleged participation after poring over pomeroy s biography reisman found several hidden clues suggesting kinsey s likely hands on approach to kiddie sex here the chain of reasoning is more complex she points out that kinsey was interested in clitoral measurements collecting sperm and filming sex in his attic since kinsey did indeed mislead indiana university about the purpose of his cinematography he said that he was filming animal sex reisman asserts that a similar misrepresentation may yet apply to kinsey s child sex experiments catch the may reisman was also struck by kinsey s doubting thomas attitude toward the never before recorded climax of female rabbits kinsey according to pomeroy was the type of person who needed to see things for himself pomeroy gave the example of orgasm in the female rabbit because he had not personally witnessed this event kinsey had difficulty in accepting its reality even on the strength of testimony from a distinguished scientist how then did kinsey testify to the actuality of orgasm in a month old infant from the mere history of a sex offender but of course he did not he depended on their records from this fantastic alchemy of conjecture mixed with clitorides sperm attic cumshots and climax in cottontail has reisman defamed the legendary kinsey paul gebhard succeeded kinsey as the director of the kinsey institute and now lives in retirement outside bloomington reached by telephone gebhard defended the pedophile connection and denied reisman s nasty imputations i don t understand the resistance of people like reisman to studying the sexuality of children gebhard said more in exasperation than anger that is where sex begins we were happy to take data wherever we found it even though pedophiles commit criminal acts they are usually not violent folks they wouldn t be very successful if they were one of our best sources was a headmaster of a boys school who maintained a kind of alumni club and sometimes went to the weddings of his former students as for directing experiments that s absurd we never told any of our subjects what to do lt was against our principles almost all of the pedophile material was retrospective anyway nor did we ever conduct sex experiments with children ourselves that would have been highly inappropriate i asked gebhard if kinsey had ever seen a child in a sexual situation i think a mother once brought in a little girl who humped her teddy bear and kinsey watched it as for kinsey s sex life it is still shrouded in confidentiality he was married to the same woman for years and fathered four children apparently there are no huge sexual revelations although rumors of homosexuality have persisted without confirmation through the years gebhard took his boss s history back in the s but he refuses to discuss what he knows we never divulge anything about anybody s history whether dead or alive he says reisman said no to an interview for this article on the grounds that i had once worked for penthouse not to mention the fact that we have been debating each other in various forums for the past five years in keeping with our contentious history she took a swipe at me in her book for continuing the kinsey practice of euphemizing incest my offense was using the biblical variant lying with a near relative in a article on the subject of incest as a synonym for intercourse lying with appears eight times in genesis ed eichel is a different story though seemingly obsessed by kinsey like his coauthor he was friendly in long conversations he told me that he began to smell a big baised agenda in sexology when he was a student in new york university s human sexuality program in the early s it was literally a gay studies program for heterosexuals he says around eichel came upon reisman s critique of kinsey and the conspiracy theory started to sink in the sex establishment was ruled by a kinseyan bisexual bund advocating the overthrow of the heterosexual norm no wonder he was having such a rough time promoting the joy of simultaneous orgasm anything that enhanced sexual compatibility between men and women inevitably raised objections eventually eichel exchanged philosophical fluids with reisman and from this union kinsey sex and fraud was born eichel s main contribution to the book is discovery and analysis of a kinsey conspiracy that supposedly seeks the establishment of bisexuality as the balanced sexual orientation for normal uninhibited people which by destroying the traditional family structure and normal sexual behavior would open the way for the second and more difficult step the ultimate goal of cross generational sex sex with children when i pressed him for specific references to back up his outrageous contentions he said weakly you don t think kinsey is going to come right out and say that everybody is basically bisexual and should have sex with kids but this is implicit in the kinsey reports meanwhile eichel is demanding a congressional investigation of kinsey and his data perfect that s just what the country needs a house un american sexual activities committee looking under beds and asking people if they are now or have everbeen a reader a sympathizer or god forbid a subject of dr alfred kinsey elf elf halcyon com elf sternberg the purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas obscure pure reasoning and inhibit clarity with a little pratice writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog bill watterson s calvin
talk.politics.misc	re not talking to soldiers part ii in article apr desire wright edu demon desire wright edu not a boomer writes after going to great lenghts to describe the people inside as hostages of koresh eg people leaving escaped and stating that generals have no place in law enforcement it appears that janet and the fbi atf have egg on their faces hostages dead two unsuccessful assualts janet some advice go with the seals delta force green berets next time and talk nicely to the generals this might be illegal without a very specific presidential declaration or even a change in law in general sic u s military troops are not permitted to be used for domestic policing operations btw does janet think that military police are oxymorons jeff sicherman up the net without a sig
talk.politics.misc	re why not concentrate on child molesters in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article c ql y avt hilbert cyprs rain com joec hilbert cyprs rain com joe cipale writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes however monogamous homosexual male sex is so rare that for practical purposes homosexuality spreads aids clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all you fucking homophobic moron what about iv drug use what about tainted blood what about multi sexual partners if you knew anything what about them those also spread aids where did i say anything different go back and read what i wrote the statement homosexuality spreads aids is not made false by the fact that there are other methods of spreading it as well about what you are talking about you would be dangerous as it is right now you are a persistent boil on the skin of humanity that needs to be lanced joe cipale typical homosexual response you have yet to answer any or all of my questions and challenges to your statements by this am i to assume that you are unable to do so or just plain unwilling due to your lack of proof intelligence so what next i prove you wrong so you just put me in your killfile your lack of reasoned response seems to be a typical clayton response clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all adda wainwright does dim atal y llanw o eczcaw mips nott ac uk o mae sig ma ar werth
talk.politics.misc	re why not concentrate on child molesters in optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article c ql y avt hilbert cyprs rain com joec hilbert cyprs rain com joe cipale writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes however monogamous homosexual male sex is so rare that for practical purposes homosexuality spreads aids clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all you fucking homophobic moron what about iv drug use what about tainted blood what about multi sexual partners if you knew anything what about them those also spread aids where did i say anything different go back and read what i wrote the statement homosexuality spreads aids is not made false by the fact that there are other methods of spreading it as well but it is made false by your ridiculous leap of logic from monogamous homosexual male sex is so rare which is a load of horseshit as proportionately many queers are monogamous as hets and the ones who aren t use condoms for the most part to for practical purposes homosexuality spreads aids no unprotected sex with an infected partner spreads aids these practical purposes you speak of are obviously the purposes of spreading homophobia which leads me to an interesting truth cramer spreads hate isn t that nice about what you are talking about you would be dangerous as it is right now you are a persistent boil on the skin of humanity that needs to be lanced joe cipale typical homosexual response you mean typical homosexual response to clayton e cramer i think any human being would react that way to someone as contemptibly hateful as you actually i seem to hear the same sort of thing coming from your posts you know clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all planning to make this a complete sentence anytime soon drewcifer bi andrew d simchik schnopia as b uhura cc rochester edu treewater words weren t made for cowards happy rhodes
talk.politics.misc	re janet reno killed the waco children in article bb a de v a vm temple edu v a vm temple edu richard hoenes writes such a hostage situation has taken place on numerous occasions with the result of the police trying to take the place by force and the result being the death of the hostages and the gunmen however this is the first time i ve heard of the blame landing squarely on the police in this country we have a policy of not negotiating a back down from terrorists and hostage takers since that only encourages other terrorists and hostage takers richard that people are at risk and that some die during a hostage situation might be considered an acceptable scenario in storming a compound when everyone dies save for nine people including twenty children the outcome must be considered a failure now was the failure due to unforseeable circumstances incompetence or negligence from the double talk and multiple stories i ve seen on the news coming from the fbi and reno i find it was an honest mistake hard to swallow let s hope they get their stories straight for the second round of questions joseph stiehm
talk.politics.misc	batf of usa a repost from talk religion misc talk politics guns soc culture jewish from cdt sw stratus com c d tavares subject re who s next mormons and jews date apr gmt organization stratus computer inc in article c rlne pc murdoch acc virginia edu pmy vivaldi acc virginia edu pete yadlowsky writes we used to live in a country where everyone enjoyed the free exercise of their rights to worship and bear arms arms automatic weapons grenades rocket launchers the sorts of things no family should be without i guess all government claims if they were really stocking such weapons for armageddon how come they never used them anyway i ve often wondered what business followers of christ would have with weapons it s hard to imagine a pistol packin jesus though i suppose a pump action shotgun would have made clearing the temple a hell of a lot easier the time is coming those of you who have no sword sell your shirt and buy one and they told him master we have two swords and he said it is enough luke think not that i am come to send peace on earth i came not to send peace but the sword for i am come to set a man at variance against his father and the daugher against her mother matt well when the nice federal officers come to my house to check out my extensive weapons cache i ll just be sure not to shoot at them tea ladies and gentlemen just maybe you won t be home then you can come home to something like this well it s been a rough month begins johnnie lawmaster i just get laid off and my divorce became final but i just wasn t ready for what happened this particular monday that particular monday was was december the first day of the bill of rights third century the day when federal agents and local law enforcement officer broke into the house in tulsa that always flew the u s flag when lawmaster drove into the driveway that bleak afternoon one of his neighbors had some news ohmigod john you are in big trouble my neighbor tells me sixty police federal agents and the bomb squad busted in you house kicked down the door cut locks off your gun safe i couldn t believe it then i walked inside what a nightmare it was no nightmare it was horribly real life apparently acting on information the lawmaster possessed an illegal firearm some thirty agents of the bureau of alcohol tobacco and firearms batf teamed up with state and tulsa police authorities search warrant in hand to search for a colt ar caliber machine gun unknown serial number the warrant issued by u s magistrate john leo wagner also authorized agents to seize any tools used in the alteration or modification of firearms such as files or drills documents papers books records and other tangible properties which identify occupants or owners of the property to be searched reports vary but according to neighbors the joint task force operation aimed at the unemployed warehouseman from a nearby hospital involved some agents and local law enforcement personnel against lawmaster they cordoned off the street took station with weapons drawn in the back yard used a battering ram to break through the front door kicked in the back door broke into his gun safe threw personal papers around the house spilled boxes of ammunition on the floor broke into a small locked box that contained precious coins stood on a table to peer through the ceiling tiles breaking the table in the process then they left the doors were closed but not latched much less locked the ammo and guns were left unsecured my front and back doors were pulled shut but they were busted through and couldn t latch anybody could have waltzed in there and stolen everything i own a child could have taken a gun the guns the safe everything was open and laying around i keep all my magazines empty but someone had loaded them while i was looking around in amazement the gas electric and water companies show up to turn the power off they said they were told to shut things down then i found the note nothing found atf they didn t make any attempt to notify me i ve lived in tulsa all my life and never got more than a traffic ticket how come they can t look that up realize i ve been law abiding my whole life then come to the door when i m home they didn t leave someone here to watch over my private property they didn t even come by to explain what happened they just raided my home ransaked it left it wide open and left lawmaster placed a phone call to the local batf agent i asked are you gonna arrest me and he said no i asken him who is going to repair and clean up my house and he said if you re going to talk to me come down to my office i can t come down i said my doors are broken if i had been on vacation and i didn t have friendly neighbors i would have lost everything i own here i am a competent responsible firearms owner and the government leaves them open unlocked with ammo strewn around lawmaster said the agent advised him if you want your door to lock and your gun safe to lock you re gonna have to pay for it yourself oh i ll come right down alright i told him i ll come down but i ll bring my attorney and he said well you bring your attorney and we won t talk to you so if you don t want your tea party to be held in awkward silence make sure your lawyer isn t there there s a good chap it s very sad all those people died especially the kids but that s going to happen in a free society whenever psychologically needy people hook up with a charismatic nutcase what a repulsive outlook on society followers of unusual religions may be killed by the government it simply can t be helped in a free society you and i have two different concepts of free cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.misc	re bill targets pension funds for liberation in master cna tek com mikeq freddy cna tek com mike quigley writes excerpts from insight magazine march paranoia part deleted isn t insight magazine published by the mooneys i don t remember the article that you removed so i can t comment on it what i can comment on though is your response do you really believe that what you wrote is sufficient to refute the article do have any facts in addition to your opinion mob rule isn t any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain t charity if you are using someone else s money wilson s theory of relativity if you go back far enough we re all related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
talk.politics.misc	re watergate was temper tantrums from the s in apr pony ingres com garrett ingres com sez re michael friedman and phil ronzone o k so far you guys have called me an ignorant asshole ignorant slut dumb as a bag of hammers dumb shit am i missing any try asking michael whether he still thinks the m is one of the most beautiful machines around or ask phil if he still claims that the due process and equal protection clauses of the th amendment apply to the federal government the responses should be as enlightening as the recent name calling and about as relevant they told me you had gone totally insane and that your methods were unsound mark eckenwiler eck panix com cmcl panix eck
talk.politics.misc	re why not concentrate on child molesters in article optilink com walsh optilink com mark walsh writes in article c og h de exnet co uk sys exnet co uk xavier gallagher writes well the obvious point to make is would straight men fuck like rabbits if the oppertunity presented itself i reckon any man would go wildly promiscuous if presented with a huge variety of willing partners if true and if gays were the same as straights except for sexual preference i would imagine that gays would have much less sex than straights because the available pool for dates is less than one tenth what it is for straights somebody correct flame me please i cannot believe i am posting in this thread but what the hell he asked for it i had sort of the same reaction myself when i was first realizing i was bi so what of everyone else is straight i d never end up with a guy anyway as several people on soc bi pointed out to me this is true only if you find partners for relationships or just for sex in primarily straight circles nowadays with gay culture quite visible in major cities and such you can easily find yourself in an overwhelmingly queer social circle if you so choose about half my friends are bi and that s just from hanging out in the science fiction club and going to ucbu once a week it s not as if i have to go out of my way and hang out in bars or something so the available pool for dates can be the same size unless of course you re trying to date a random sample of the us population as for promiscuity i ve traded email with clayton on the topic and he still doesn t seem to want to admit that yes gay males are sometimes forced to resort to anonymous sex because they re closeted and can t afford to be seen in a permanent relationship or that part of the promiscuity is because of the messed up gender roles in our society and when males are dating males and they ve all been trained to be the aggressor in sex there s going to be more sex or that what s dysfunctional what s screwed up is societal attitudes not gay sexuality and that s what encourages deviant behavior in gay males also note that just because someone s had sex partners doesn t mean they re promiscuous yes it sounds ridiculous but it s quite possible for someone to go through a heavily closeted phase in which they have lots of anonymous sex with strangers and then come out start forming real relationships and be monogamous or nearly so alan jaffray jaffray math uchicago edu email talk always welcome bi those who dance are thought mad by those who hear not the music anon b h f t w cg k s vm h ps bgz o x v j n l a f vn e dvb u
talk.politics.misc	gun control kills over rejoice the streets of amerika are much safer now that the branch davidians no longer have those nasty assault weapons your children will no longer lie awake at night wondering when the next brand davidian will attempt to shoot them from their rural compound men women and children have been murdered by our great batf but the greater good has been secured for all rejoice criminals who execise the second amendment will be killed
talk.politics.misc	clinton remarks by the president on waco w q a the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april remarks by the president in question and answer session with the press the rose garden p m edt the president on february the th four federal agents were killed in the line of duty trying to enforce the law against the branch davidian compound which had illegally stockpiled weaponry and ammunition and placed innocent children at risk because the batf operation had failed to meet its objective a day standoff ensued the federal bureau of investigation then made every reasonable effort to bring this perilous situation to an end without bloodshed and further loss of life the bureau s efforts were ultimately unavailing because the individual with whom they were dealing david koresh was dangerous irrational and probably insane he engaged in numerous activities which violated both federal law and common standards of decency he was moreover responsible for the deaths and injuries which occurred during the action against the compound in february given his inclination towards violence and in an effort to protect his young hostages no provocative actions were taken for more than seven weeks by federal agents against the compound this weekend i was briefed by attorney general reno on an operation prepared by the fbi designed to increase pressure on koresh and persuade those in the compound to surrender peacefully the plan included a decision to withhold the use of ammunition even in the face of fire and instead to use tear gas that would not cause permanent harm to health but would it was hoped force the people in the compound to come outside and to surrender i was informed of the plan to end the siege i discussed it with attorney general reno i asked the questions i thought it was appropriate for me to ask i then told her to do what she thought was right and i take full responsibility for the implementation of the decision yesterday s action ended in a horrible human tragedy mr koresh s response to the demands for his surrender by federal agents was to destroy himself and murder the children who were his captives as well as all the other people who were there who did not survive he killed those he controlled and he bears ultimate responsibility for the carnage that ensued now we must review the past with an eye towards the future i have directed the united stated departments of justice and treasury to undertake a vigorous and thorough investigation to uncover what happened and why and whether anything could have been done differently i have told the departments to involve independent professional law enforcement officials in the investigation i expect to receive analysis and answers in whatever time is required to complete the review finally i have directed the departments to cooperate fully with all congressional inquiries so that we can continue to be fully accountable to the american people i want to express my appreciation to the attorney general to the justice department and to the federal agents on the front lines who did the best job they could under deeply difficult circumstances again i want to say as i did yesterday i am very sorry for the loss of life which occurred at the beginning and at the end of this tragedy in waco i hope very much that others who will be tempted to join cults and to become involved with people like david koresh will be deterred by the horrible scenes they have seen over the last seven weeks and i hope very much that the difficult situations which federal agents confronted there and which they will be doubtless required to confront in other contexts in the future will be somewhat better handled and better understood because of what has been learned now q mr president can you first of all tell us why after days you decided q mr president can you describe for us what it is that janet reno outlined to you in your minute phone conversation with the president i can t hear you both if one will go first and then the other q sorry can you describe what janet reno q mr president the president i ll answer both your questions but i can t do it at once q can you describe what she told you on sunday about the nature of the operation and how much detail you knew about it the president yes i was told by the attorney general that the fbi strongly felt that the time had come to take another step in trying to dislodge the people in the compound and she described generally what the operation would be that they wanted to go in and use tear gas which had been tested not to cause permanent damage to adults or to children but which would make it very difficult for people to stay inside the building and it was hoped that the tear gas would permit them to come outside i was further told that under no circumstances would our people fire any shots at them even if fired upon they were going to shoot the tear gas from armored vehicles which would protect them and there would be no exchange of fire in fact as you know an awful lot of shots were fired by the cult members at the federal officials there were no shots coming back from the government side i asked a number of questions the first question i asked is why now we have waited seven weeks why now the reasons i was given were the following number one that there was a limit to how long the federal authorities could maintain with their limited resources the quality and intensity of coverage by experts there they might be needed in other parts of the country number two that the people who had reviewed this had never seen a case quite like this one before and they were convinced that no progress had been made recently and no progress was going to be made through the normal means of getting koresh and the other cult members to come out number three that the danger of their doing something to themselves or to others was likely to increase not decrease with the passage of time and number four that they had reason to believe that the children who were still inside the compound were being abused significantly as well as being forced to live in unsanitary and unsafe conditions so for those reasons they wanted to move at that time the second question i asked the attorney general is whether they had given consideration to all of the things that could go wrong and evaluated them against what might happen that was good she said that the fbi personnel on the scene and those working with them were convinced that the chances of bad things happening would only increase with the passage of time the third question i asked was has the military been consulted as soon as the initial tragedy came to light in waco that s the first thing i asked to be done because it was obvious that this was not a typical law enforcement situation military people were then brought in helped to analyze the situation and some of the problems that were presented by it and so i asked if the military had been consulted the attorney general said that they had and that they were in basic agreement that there was only one minor tactical difference of opinion between the fbi and the military something that both sides thought was not of overwhelming significance having asked those questions and gotten those answers i said that if she thought it was the right thing to do that she should proceed and that i would support it and i stand by that today q mr president the president wait go ahead q can you address the widespread perception reported widely television radio and newspapers that you were trying somehow to distance yourself from this disaster the president no i m bewildered by it the only reason i made no public statement yesterday let me say the only reason i made no public statement yesterday is that i had nothing to add to what was being said and i literally did not know until rather late in the day whether anybody was still alive other than those who had been actually seen and taken to the hospital or taken into custody it was purely and simply a question of waiting for events to unfold there was i have i can t account for why people speculated one way or the other but i talked to the attorney general on the day before the action took place i talked to her yesterday i called her again late last night after she appeared on the larry king show and i talked to her again this morning a president it is not possible for a president to distance himself from things that happen when the federal government is in control i will say this however i was frankly surprised would be a mild word to say that anyone that would suggest that the attorney general should resign because some religious fanatics murdered themselves applause i regret what happened but it is not possible in this life to control the behavior of others in every circumstance these people killed four federal officials in the line of duty they were heavily armed they fired on federal officials yesterday repeatedly and they were never fired back on we did everything we could to avoid the loss of life they made the decision to immolate themselves and i regret it terribly and i feel awful about the children but in the end the last comment i had from janet reno is when and i talked to her on sunday i said now i want you to tell me once more why you believe not why they believe why you believe we should move now rather than wait some more and she said it s because of the children they have evidence that those children are still being abused and that they re in increasingly unsafe conditions and that they don t think it will get any easier with time with the passage of time i have to take their word for that so that is where i think things stand q can we assume then that you don t think this was mishandled in view of the outcome that you didn t run out of patience and if you had it to do over again would you really decide that way the president no well i think what you can assume is just exactly what i announced today this is a the fbi has done a lot of things right for this country over a long period of time this is the same fbi that found the people that bombed the world trade center in lickety split record time we want an inquiry to analyze the steps along the way is there something else we should have known is there some other question they should have asked is there some other question i should have asked can i say for sure that no one that we could have done nothing else to make the outcome come different i don t know that that s why i want the inquiry and that s why i would like to make sure that we have some independent law enforcement people not political people but totally non political outside experts who can bring to bear the best evidence we have there is unfortunately a rise in this sort of fanaticism all across the world and we may have to confront it again and i want to know whether there is anything we can do particularly when there are children involved but i do think it is important to recognize that the wrong doers in this case were the people who killed others and then killed themselves q mr president were there any other options presented to you for resolving this situation at any point from february th until yesterday the president well yes i got regular reports all along the way there were lots of other options pursued if you go back you all covered it very well the fbi you did a very good job of it i mean the fbi and the other authorities there pursued any number of other options all along the way and a lot of them early on seemed to be working some of the children got out some of the other people left there was a at one point there seemed to be some lines of communication opening up between koresh and the authorities and then he would say things and not do them and things just began to spin downward whether there were other in terms of what happened yesterday the conversation i had with the attorney general did not involve other options except whether we should take more time with the present strategy we were pursuing because they said they wanted to do this because they thought this was the best way to get people out of the compound quickly before they could kill themselves that s what they thought q did the government know that the children did not have gas masks q congressional hearings once the situation are you in agreement with that the president that s up to the congress they can do whatever they want but i think it s very important that the treasury and justice departments launch this investigation and bring in some outside experts and as i said in my statement if any congressional committees want to look into it we will fully cooperate there is nothing to hide here this was probably the most well covered operation of its kind in the history of the country go ahead sarah q there are two questions i want to ask you the first is i think that they knew very well that the children did not have gas masks while the adults did so the children had no chance because this gas was very she said it was not lethal but it was very dangerous to the children and they could not have survived without gas masks and on february th let s go back didn t those people have a right to practice their religion the president they were not just practicing their religion they were the treasury department believed that they had violated federal laws any number of them q what federal laws the president let me go back and answer i can t answer the question about the gas masks except to tell you that the whole purpose of using the tear gas was that it had been tested they were convinced that it wouldn t kill either a child or an adult but it would force anybody that breathed it to run outside and one of the things that i ve heard i don t want to get into the details of this because i don t know but one of the things that they were speculating about today was that the wind was blowing so fast that the windows might have been opened and some of the gas might have escaped and that may be why it didn t have the desired effect they also knew sarah that there was an underground compound a bus buried underground where the children could be sent and they were i think they were hoping very much that if the children were not released immediately outside that the humane thing would be done and that the children would be sent someplace where they could be protected in terms of the gas masks themselves i learned yesterday i did not ask this fact question before that the gas was supposed to stay active in the compound longer than the gas masks themselves were to work so that it was thought that even if they all had gas masks that eventually the gas would force them out in a nonviolent nonshooting circumstance ms myers last question q mr president why are you still saying that q could you tell us whether or not you ever asked janet reno about the possibility of a mass suicide and when you learned about the actual fire and explosion what went through your mind during those horrendous moments the president what i asked janet reno is if they had considered all the worse things that could happen and she said and of course the whole issue of suicide had been raised in the public he had that had been debated anyway and she said that the people who were most knowledgeable about these kinds of issues concluded that there was no greater risk of that now than there would be tomorrow or the next day or the day after that or at anytime in the future that was the judgment they made whether they were right or wrong of course we will never know what happened when i saw the fire when i saw the building burning i was sick i felt terrible and my immediate concern was whether the children had gotten out and whether they were escaping or whether they were inside trying to burn themselves up that s the first thing i wanted to know thank you q mr president why are you still saying it was a janet reno decision isn t it in the end your decision the president well what i m saying is that i didn t have a four or five hour detailed briefing from the fbi i didn t go over every strategic part of it it is a decision for which i take responsibility i m the president of the united states and i signed off on the general decision and giving her the authority to make the last call when i talked to her on sunday some time had elapsed she might have made a decision to change her mind i said if you decide to go forward with this tomorrow i will support you and i do support her she is not ultimately responsible to the american people i am but i think she has conducted her duties in an appropriate fashion and she has dealt with this situation i think as well as she could have thank you applause end p m edt
talk.politics.misc	quick survey on economic views i d like to conduct a small survey relating to americans views on economics and on japan the survey consists of just two questions i ask that only americans respond i ve posted it worldwide however because i think others will be interested in the results i ll tabulate the results and post them with some commentary please respond by email to borden m harvard edu here are the questions as an american would you prefer that in a given year a our economy grows by one percent and japan s economy also grows by one percent or b our economy grows by two percent while japan s economy grows by three percent on what newsgroup did you read this survey thank you for your participation dave borden borden m harvard edu
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage chris cooke cc dcs ed ac uk wrote in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes when you force people to associate with others against their will yes people are forced into the usa armed forces they were in the recent past maybe someone knows for certain if the usa has decided if it wants a conscript army as they sent into south east asia or a volenteer one mark evans evansmp uhura aston ac uk home evansmp cs aston ac uk x office
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article apr romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes in article apr galileo cc rochester edu as b uhura cc rochester edu some caifone writes i certainly hope you don t have an so sir what is so supposed to signify i prefer the companionship of a person not a euphemism because if she heard thankfully you got the gender right for i am not a deviant wow another clayton wannabe typical response lack of logic define deviant someone who deviates from the normal ok so far define normal erm umm if you define yourself as normal then it is for you to prove that you are within limits which then brings in the question what are the limits for you we may have to broaden them to other s intolerance normal difficult to prove from what you have posted it must follow that normal to you means someone without compassion and a sense of justice but it does look as if you went to the clayton school of logic doesn t it how disparaging you are towards political minorities sexual deviants do not comprise a political minorit y again an astounding lack of logic wow you must define what you say such that everyone agrees here you have used the phrase sexual deviant how in the hell do you define that as someone who does something sexually that you don t by this definition you most probably mean the majority of the planet how do you know that your next door neighbour doesn t like custard to be spread over his genetalia then have it licked off by his wife is this sexual deviancy how do we know that you don t like something sexually which others may find repulsive is having sex doggy fashion a sexual deviancy please be more specific and where you do back up your claims or i may have to go to hospital due to laughing too much at yours and clayton s postings secondly if we assume for the moment that the phrase sexual deviant means such people as homosexuals bisexuals c basically everyone you don t like i think that your phrase do not comprise a political minorit y why the brackets is a non sequiteur gay groups exist which lobby their governments that is a fact prove it false hence they are a politial group you state that they are not a political minority are they therefore a political majority i think you boobed really big on this one try thinking about your arguments and if she had any shred of self respect she d be out the door i only associate with girls who do indeed have self respect but were i to find myself with the sort who would be inclined to head out the door on account of my views regarding the aberrant behavior known as homosexuality i would encourage her to indeed do so and i would further advise her not to let the door whack her on the backside on the way out who needs such an airhead prove the first statement please dates phone numbers c again your logic fails again you make statements which you cannot and most probably will not maintain you state that a person girl in this context who considers equal rights for all humans to be an airhead as clayton your best mate would say it just shows how screwed up you are pretty soon they will find themselves retreating back into the closet where they belong don t count on it sweetheart oh i can t do anything but count on it after all it is inevitable for it is part of the natural order of things throughout history nature has always asserted itself don t be so arrogant as to assume that this foolish and misguided generation can change the nature of man where practically every other generation has failed greater men than you haven t been able to do this the above most certainly will happen no matter how much you may wish to pretend otherwise proof please proof that homosexuality is not part of the natural order proof that nature has always asserted itself are you saying that nature is a conciousness are you pretending that you have the ability to see the future are you god tm in fact by your arguement are you waiting for the black people to become slaves again because they were reviled as sub human nb not my view at one time again your arguement falls on its ass moreover i m not your sweetheart touchy touchy touchy right i have shot holes in each and every one of your arguements you are most probably going to put me in your kill file because you have no answers to my questions and challenges since you cannot support your arguments it merely goes to show that what you write is based upon your personal prejudices and cannot be taken to be fact of any kind i await an intelligent response the views expressed herein are theodore a kaldis my own only do you seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe that a major university rutgers remus rutgers edu kaldis as this would hold such views adda wainwright does dim atal y llanw o eczcaw mips nott ac uk o mae sig ma ar werth
talk.politics.misc	re welcome to police state usa in article rlglendec tbuf oc netcom com rlglende netcom com robert lewis glendenning writes has anybody heard an explanation of why the fbi was using tear gas in a mph wind first a tank drove through the wall into the living room i can t stop thinking about the children who were inside the house the room at the time how many people got killed during the tiannamen square events doesn t seem like vry good tactics to me any other explanations lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective is worth iq points niels bohr or somebody like that disclaimer opinions expressed are mine not my employer s
talk.politics.misc	re freedom of association in article pdb kilimanjaro jpl nasa gov pdb ipl jpl nasa gov paul bartholomew writes a very well put together post i disagree with several key points but the post is an excellent one with which to engage in discourse there has been much discussion recently about the right to freedom of association mr cramer and mr ronzone appear to take an absolutist position on this right that it is a fundamental human right perhaps the fundamental human right and that it supersedes other rights such as the right to an equal opportunity others feel that a right to an equal opportunity outweighs the right to freedom of association and thus we have the never ending debate that flares up repeatedly freedom of association foa involves the mutual and voluntary agreement of two or more people right to equal opportunity lets call it reo involves coercion in all cases by definition a major problem is that neither of these rights are explicitly declared or protected in the constitution or in the declaration of independence although both can be derived from these documents unfortunately this means that the debate will never end because neither side can conclu sively prove the validity of their view it becomes solely a matter of personal philosophy yes there is much debate but no it can end with once and for all recognition of these rights well not totally perfect end but end in the same way that there is no worldwide disagreement that say murder is a crime my personal opinion is that the real answer lies somewhere in between i regard both of these rights as fundamental human rights which unfortu nately come into direct conflict with one another which is stronger depends on the given situation hmm there is even more discusion about religion should we take a somewhere in between approach towards the state a state recognized religion the first amendment is so uh so absolutist you know for example if the owner of a mom and pop store wishes to hire an employee to help out their right to freedom of association outweighs the rights of their job applicants to an equal opportunity they should be free to hire whomever they choose using whatever criteria they choose without any government intervention at all similarly if a family wishes to rent out a bedroom in their home or a garage apartment or something similar then their right to freedom of association outweighs the rights of their prospective tenants to an equal opportunity if on the other hand ibm a multi national corporation with employees publicly owned and operated by a board of directors wishes to hire additional employees then whose freedom of association are we protecting the board of directors the other employees the owners of the stock in this case the applicant s right to an equal opportunity outweighs the right to freedom of association and we as a society can ask ibm to use only those criteria which are relevant to the specific task why says who why can mon pop have foa but ibm be forced and force is the correct word here to have reo as purchase of ibm is voluntary then there are very well defined procedures on how ibm chooses to do some things and chooses to do other things why not let those same procedures work for employment policies similarly if a landlord owns a number of apartment buildings in which he does not live and which are managed by an independent management agency then whose freedom of association are we protecting if the owner does not live in his buildings and has no contact with his tenants then the prospective tenant s right to an equal opportunity outweighs the right to freedom of association and we as a society can ask the owner to use only those criteria which are relevant to good tenants i ve put good in quotation marks because i really don t want to be drawn off into the side issue of what constitutes a good tenant why does this tenant have an option i won t call it a right to destroy the foa of the landlord if the landlord and the tenant can t agree then they both can cease from using each other s property suddenly by arm waving by magic a landlord does not have foa and on what basis does the foa of the landlord disappear it seems that vague terms like no contact with tenants suffice well i think foa is one our most important rightts in the top and by golly if the state is going to make it suffer i sure would like to see the heinous crime that justifies the removal of this right i don t think no contact with the tenats is even a crime much less something that should cause severe interference with important rights i suspect that the majority of the people in this country agree with my position on these extreme cases particularly if they are presented in this manner i don t know if mr ronzone or mr cramer would agree i suspect not in any case additional problems arise when we try to apply guidelines for the middle ground what if the company has employees or or where do we draw the line between protecting the right to freedom of association and protecting the right to an equal opportunity rights are not defined by majority mob choice foa is an absolute reo is a fancy name for thuggery for racism and coercion the difficulty is that any line we draw will of necessity be artificial and any legislation resulting will be flawed in the past the government has usually tried to pass laws which referred to the number of employees hired by the company e g any company with more than xxx employees was affected by the law those with fewer were unaffected of course it would be you dimly see that the line must be artifiacial because foa is the only right just like a state religion you can t jsutify that either generally i believe that if we do not have any regulations affecting these rights then the right to freedom of association will be stronger on the other hand many of the regulations protect the right to an equal opportunity too much weakening the right to freedom of association i don t believe there is a satisfactory solution which will please everybody a solution that i came up with is to use publicly owned vs privately owned as the dividing line if the company remains privately owned then the owners should be free to do whatever they want with their company if the company becomes publicly owned then the public has a right to ask the company to submit to additional regulation why i assume that when you say publicly owned you are talking about those quasi state companys that do not have shareholders the companies on the fortune for example are all privately owned they can give you a list of all of their owners they have no anonymous unknown to them owners by the way the above analysis is based on the assumption that the right to freedom of association and the right to an equal opportunity are both fundamental human rights of equal importance since this is entirely a matter of faith not subject to any proof i do not choose to even try to establish this you either accept it or you don t any comments foa can be derived by any two rational people on a basis that neither has evil malicious or murderous intent towards the others in short agreement is mutual or not at all your reo on the other hand lives only by accepting coercion the gun into the situation and that is self destructive of the whole argument because it is based only on might makes right sort of like saying nobody has a right to live whereupon i whip out a gun and shoot you dead end of argument there are actually people that still believe love canal was some kind of environmental disaster weird eh these opinions are mine and you can t have em but i ll rent em cheap
talk.politics.misc	re eight myths about national health insurance pt ii v pxgt ubvmsb cc buffalo edu daniel b case writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes you re not buying insurance so much as being coerced into one insurance plan no it is optional as it is optional for doctors to accept it there are isolated religeous communities in particular that ask for exemptions and one e mail from a christian scientist in edmonton verified for me that it is indeed negative option i guess that you can argue that there is a right to having a particular insurance but so far i ve not come across that up north and i take pains to keep tabs with news from home it s optional but what if you don t want basic coverage on the government s terms you said before that if you opt out you re basically uninsured there are two things at work here the public insurance is very wide in what it will cover as the amortization is also universal no private plan can boast of a plan that fits a gaussian curve and as our private sector has discovered they re better off not offering insurance coverage that their customers are going to use and that turns the private insurers offering the frills into an effective cartel they don t really need to compete because as you put it they re in a win win situation and they re guaranteed to turn a profit believe me they probably had orgasms when they figured that out and according to my sister the yuppie they pat themselves on the back to the point of ungraciousness at chamber of commerce luncheons so in a sense they ve stopped being truly capitalists if they don t have to worry about competing anymore you might say that the total effect is one of socialized medicine a government providing the basics and a cartel providing the extras there is no alternative to the system desirable or not the alternative to the system is no system at all patients opted out doctors opted out or both but that only for insurance and you can t force a private insurance company to sell you a plan that they will not offer and remember that the actual health care is delivered by private entities who collect from the public insurance voluntarily again they can t force a private entity to spring to life to pay them plus there is the matter of culture and values i m basically anti tax and anti government by canadian standards yet i can t bring myself to make the same arguments as you do despite that i understand where you re coming from up north you re so much more likely to find someone protesting taxes going to defence than health insurance premiums to only one fund for basic coverage interesting side note have any new insurance companies started up from scratch since medicare became standard in canada i actually have doubts that any new ones have emerged since ww i no scratch that there are a few in western canada and quite a few in quebec as part of the post quebec miracle out with the nationalism in with the french capitalism la groupe des cooper antes built a new tower by the eaton s store at les terraces and if you were able to catch urban angel on cbs s crimetime you d see it as the well lit one with double turrets at the top as for ontario which still dominates and anchors business up north i meant new companies not new buildings yes primarily in quebec and in alberta sorry i musta lost you in that verbose blurb it s not really insurance if you don t have alternatives well you have to realize that in our society that s like saying that it s not really national defence because you can t hire your own rambo squad instead or even opting out as a pacifist true but i would be more comfortable with a system in which basic care provided by the government was optional not mandatory in canada and germany it s not mandatory however it is negative option in that you must request the exemption that the private sector will not provide private basic coverage if offered the option as in the quebec case tells me something about what they know either way the transient situations are hard to deal with since the changes in the private medical care resource take place at a slower rate than the ability of people to fall sick esp in the light of disasters e g chernobyl or bad luck a sudden wave of heart disease a doctor needs years of training plus internship and specialty training another problem with the us system that should be resolved doesn t canada have something like ten times the proportion of gps to specialists that the us does yes but part of the reason is that our most of our markets are too small to sustain many specialists sometimes not even one so you pretty well have to be a gp to get paid and if you do get the training the doctors monopoly might block your getting of a licence because there is already someone in the business and who cannot fill his her appointment book that we have a cma doctors monopoly is something that the american ama oriented medical lobby never tells you down here the problem is in a specialty your skill often directly correlates to your pay a good cardiologist makes more than a merely adequate cardiologist more than it does in general practice in that circumstance it s hard to blame people for going into specialties no i respect people who do specialties okay all of my md friends are but there s the question of our small market dynamics up north if anything that our private doctors and hospitals sell their services to americans to generate more business will inflate their effective population served and thus make some specialties finally viable i e there will be enough customers we just do not have enough sick canadians in absolute numbers otherwise i personally think an approach like germany s would be best where the companies compete for batches of people rochester a little east of us was able to get almost all of its population covered that way uh germany basically uses our method with their many sickness funds the competition is fake if it exists at all because they re all interlinked look in der spiegel or stern my girlfriend is in our german department and her uncle is a private practicioner in saarbrucken no ads for health insurance while canada organizes by province germany organizes the paperwork around big corporations and regional offices but remember that we have provinces that have the same population as some major german corporations germans have public health insurance just that it is brokered by smaller entities actually brokerage of basic by private firms who ll sell extra insurance to fill out their policies sort of a voucher system was one of the first ideas floated in canada too remember the germans don t have hmo s a telling sign cos rochester does and they re also a company town but there was a washington post article recently about that that said canadian doctors often use myelograms instead of mris which require spinal injections and can cause seizures and headaches mickey kaus in the new republic probably spoke for most americans when he said who needs that i think people here generally like to believe they can easily get the most high tech treatment even if they really can t afford it i ll have to let a canadian md jump in to verify that claim but i ve come to learn to suspect anything in the american press about our system if much or some of it were true you d have to take us for idiots for tolerating it and given that our insurance was installed during a period when there were only liberal and tory governments federally and provincially and the socialists are still chafing they would ve pressed for real socialized medicine to fix things think about it after all we are using the u s as a metric to make comparison both for keeping up with the joneses as for confirming that we did something right gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
talk.politics.misc	f o cus health how u s compares from harelb math cornell edu misc activism progressive co moderator subject f o cus health how u s compares children elderly in poverty f o cus health how u s compares children elderly in poverty percentage of children and elderly living in poverty children elderly country in poverty in poverty united states canada australia united kingdom france netherlands germany sweden source timothy m smeeding u s poverty and income security policy in a cross national perspective october luxembourg october luxembourg income study working paper of the western industrial nations western industrial countries having a national health insurance plan providing universal coverage australia yes sweden yes canada yes united kingdom yes denmark yes austria yes finland yes france yes ireland yes switzerland yes italy yes spain yes japan yes belgium yes new zealand yes germany yes netherlands yes norway yes western industrial countries not having a national health insurance plan providing universal coverage united states no from page of we re number one where america stands and falls in the new world order by andrew l shapiro new york may vintage books a division of random house paperback isbn transcribed by jhwoodar well sf ca us joe woodard america is becoming a land of private greed and public squalor this book is an indispensable road map through the wreckage the facts it reveals will startle you they may depress you but ideally they ll fire you up to help rebuild this nation robert b reich author of the work of nations
talk.politics.misc	f o cus health millions of america from harelb math cornell edu misc activism progressive co moderator subject f o cus health millions of americans un under covered f o cus health millions of americans un under covered percentage of population covered by public health insurance country percent country percent australia sweden canada united kingdom denmark austria finland france ireland switzerland italy spain japan belgium new zealand germany netherlands united states norway sources organization for economic cooperation and development paris health data file u s national center for heath statistics advance data no june we re number one in percentage of population without health insurance the main reason we re number one in percentage of population without health insurance is that we re last in percentage of population covered by public health insurance only about one fifth of americans qualify for the main types of public health insurance available in the united states medicare medicaid and veterans benefits l of those who don t qualify many have private insurance but almost one in seven americans million people most living in families with a working adult have no insurance at all and one in four million have been without insurance for a substantial period of time during the last two years many more have inadequate coverage meaning that they could be bankrupted by a major illness in fact one health care expert says that because only percent of the population has private longterm care insurance virtually any american could be impoverished by a prolonged disabling illness additionally as many as percent of those eligible for some forms of public aid do not receive it these gaps in health care result directly from the fact that the united states is the only major industrialized nation other than south africa without a national health insurance plan providing universal coverage while controlling costs from we re number one where america stands and falls in the new world order by andrew l shapiro new york may vintage books a division of random house paperback isbn transcribed by jhwoodar well sf ca us joe woodard america is becoming a land of private greed and public squalor this book is an indispensable road map through the wreckage the facts it reveals will startle you they may depress you but ideally they ll fire you up to help rebuild this nation robert b reich author of the work of nations
talk.politics.misc	re janet reno killed the waco children in article bb a de v a vm temple edu richard hoenes v a vm temple edu writes such a hostage situation has taken place on numerous occasions with the result of the police trying to take the place by force and the result being the death of the hostages and the gunmen however this is the first time i ve heard of the blame landing squarely on the police in this country we have a policy of not negotiating a back down from terrorists and hostage takers since that only encourages other terrorists and hostage takers not an accurate analogy david koresh did not take a bunch of hostages and then call the batf with a ransom note you make it sound as if the batf showed up to save those children in the first place i have some interesting news for youbatf has absolutely no jurisdiction in child abuse cases it seems to me that the batf showed up took the davidians hostage then the fbi showed up negotiated to have a few of the hostages released but were unable to keep the batf from killing the rest of the poor people trapped inside the compound steve martin steve martin msmgate mrg uswest com the strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government thomas jefferson
talk.politics.misc	re quality time a one act play fluffy bi fantasy squelched dear mr elf please post this shit where it belongs i believe you know where that is you overweening weenie biter
talk.politics.misc	trincoll journal an interactive macintosh magizine of opinion announcing the trincoll journal trinity college s paperless publication the trincoll journal is an interactive magizine written in hypercard this publication offers a wide variety of information concerning the trinity campus and the greater hartford area in addition the journal also provides a unique forum for opinion and expression we would like to invite the internet community to participate in the creation of this publication by submitting articles art work events for the greater hartford area only and anything else that you think is interesting to the journal each week articles may be written about anything as long as they are written well we are also interested in mirroring newsletters and other information not easily accessible to non intensive macintosh users the weekly deadline for submitting materials is wendsday pm eastern standard time please send all submissions to journal mail trincoll edu to receive the journal each week send a mail message with the words subscribe journal as the subject line to journal mail trincoll edu please include full name and instituion in the body of text find out what everyone is thinking subscribe today
talk.politics.misc	re ap journalists arrested in waco in article c wgmt p apollo hp com goykhman apollo hp com red herring writes in article jason apr ab larc nasa gov jason c austin j c austin larc nasa gov writes in article r hf ah calvin nyu edu hargitai acf nyu edu hargitai writes for those who still doubt what is going on this is from the still uncensored ap wire two journalists from houston arrested at gun point and cuffed and jailed for taking pictures of the compound today later released on bail but cameras and film were confiscated jh you could work for cnn take a few lines from a story and imply something with it but don t say what you really mean the police always close off the area around a major crime scene to keep evidence from being disturbed by taking pictures they leave foot prints they may drop some trash on the ground and they may pick up something that looks interesting and it is a misdemeanor to enter the closed off area one of the photographers also quickly spun around with a long lens camera while the officer was approaching a good way to get shot well that hopefully depends on what country one is in it has nothing to do with the country you are coming toward someone in an area where there has been violent confrontations and one guy spins around quickly with an object that looks like a gun police are not trained to stand there and let someone gun them down there was also no indication in that story that they wouldn t get their cameras and film back after getting out of jail once goverment agents have had an opportunity to check the film out you re making statements that are not supported by facts don t let paranoia get the best of you wait to see if the reporters don t get their film back or they get it back developed before screaming conspiracy i think it was barry goldwater who once said the goverment that is big enough to give you everything is big enough to take everything from you you life and or freedom including of course that could not happen to you could it our government is not big enough to give you everything despite the efforts of people like bill clinton taking a statement like that and thinking everything done in the name of law enforcement is wrong is simple minded and ignorant of history a government is a necessary evil and we must decide what it should be allowed to do based on facts history and not by baseless claims jason c austin j c austin larc nasa gov
talk.politics.misc	koresh is dead it s time to start healing sorry but i just wanted to be the first hypocrite to say it i hope i m not too late has everyone been watching their local national politicians rick rick roy usenet rick howtek mv com america online qed disclaimer my employer s views are orthogonal to these the early bird got worms
talk.politics.misc	re eight myths about national health insurance pt ii v pxgt ubvmsd cc buffalo edu daniel b case writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes again they can t force a private entity to spring to life to pay them so the government by sheer economic force has basically cleared the basic care market for itself the only way to test this would be for some really daring person to start up from scratch in alberta and or quebec a health insurance company offering basic care crazy yes but that s almost how mci got started however the concept of risks is well known by insurance actuaries and no private firm can get the kind of amortization that the public pools can get and since health insurance gets spent that doesn t sit well with the insurance ceo s and you get a situation like in the u s where rates keep going up to catch up see what i mean it s a government monopoly sure because it s a non market phenomenom and the free market can t solve it even our private insurance says that and remember last year quebec proposed giving the least risky parts of basic care to the private sector and they balked like you said why should they and wants no part of it by your own arguments if you don t want the provincial plan you re basically up a creek yes but in our culture arguing against it is like arguing for national defence by means of warlords true according to polls i ve read usually in the sort of simpleminded stuff you were initally responding to something like of americans would like canadian style health care whereas only of canadians would like it our way i d be interested to know why there are that many of canada s population is about a million or so people canada is saturated by american media while pundits come on cable and talk about how awful our health care is supposed to be what people experience up north ends up not differing from what they see portrayed on american television in movies i e same infrastructure different insurance make up yet they know not of any insurance problems and have no idea of what an hmo is but having lots of british tv as well they know that they don t like nhs someone must have a reason to argue against it valid or not what kind of people are they the polls that you refer to for the canadian data are from the annual july st polls conducted for macleans our major english newsmagazine by decima research decima president allen gregg is considered one of the world s top poll researchers and mulroney s conservatives have relied on him to keep in power in the face of impossible election situations the american polls are harris polls and have been reposted on usenet a few times and probably will again i m sorta suspicious myself cos maybe americans want universal coverage like canada i honestly doubt that most americans realize that we have private doctors and public and private hospitals i e similiar health care infrastructure and our system is basically pure insurance without hmo s given recent turnarounds by the hiaa endorsing universal coverage and hostility to corporatist hmo s within the ama and the complete silence vis a vis canada bashing by the ama i suspect that they re keeping the secret about canada up their sleeve exactly wouldn t you until the idea of managed competition arose there was no direct threat to stand alone private practice in the s the ama fought hmo s as corporatized socialist medicine part of the reason why we have only insurance and no hmo s in canada cos that was part of the deal cut with the cma i ve also read that the three biggest american hmos can be compared straight up against some of the smaller canadian provinces in the maritimes and they spend something like less per patient maybe it does help the american hmo s can still cream and they probably cover a smaller geographic area than even our smallest provinces geography again some of them are spread out across the whole country i think but each site is probably compact and the clientele are creamed and don t forget that hmo s place caps on your coverage and often won t tell you about additional procedures you could get otherwise despite that you might be willing to pay for it gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes i ve already posted results of a survey of homosexuals that shows how profoundly promiscuous homosexual men are were in urban areas among those who had access to gay bathhouses
talk.politics.misc	re once more into the breach in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article pdb kilimanjaro jpl nasa gov pdb ipl jpl nasa gov paul bartholomew writes item number in a previous posting you stated that you had found overwhelming support for child molestation in soc motss you have finally responded to this one i have read your complete file of postings to soc motss and to put it bluntly it does not support your assertion in short this claim is bogus thank you for confirming this all those postings in defense of adults having sex with children and you just choose to claim that they don t say anything of the sort there s no point in discussing this any further then you are clearly a liar without morals of any sort prepared to justify child molestation clayton are you really an idiot or do you just play one on usenet you claimed you had postings from a dozen i e soc motss posters that supported child molestation point aside that they were really defending abolishing or modifying the age of consent laws or the right to be attracted but don t act upon desires for children so out of thousands is an overwhelming majority you never cease to amaze me and you still haven t told me why my relationship with my partner is immoral brian d kane kane buast astro bu edu hot young star astronomy dept boston university boston ma true personal salvation is achieved by absolute faith in ones true self
talk.politics.misc	waco investigation paranoia can people please stop the i think know the batf fbi are completely responsible but they ll cover it up so that the investigation will show that koresch is responsible bs in an investigation of this size with the feds state and civilians involved in the investigation it would be practially impossible to cover up and with republicans like arlen spector calling for investigations this isn t going to be handled with kid gloves richard
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage on apr gmt clayton cramer observed alyoung kiwi ucs indiana edu amy lynn young leith writes can someone tell me why when mr cramer spouts on about homosexuals he only addresses homosexual men and never in any post i ve read addressed lesbians granted i stopped reading all his posts long long ago so perhaps i missed something because women very very seldom molest children un hunh yeah right sure you know that list of things that are stereotypically american mom apple pie etc you don t hear too many stories about mom being a child molester because such stories would simply be unamerican but that doesn t say that it doesn t happen michael starowl
talk.politics.misc	re mow bodycount in article apr spdcc com urso spdcc com stephen chappell writes in article c kt y m world std com bearpaw world std com bearpaw writes i believe the mow plans and handing out some sort of wristband thingy and basing their count on those i see two problems with this one can they get everybody to take one and only one two they couldn t possibly have been able to choose a color design that won t clash with somebody s outfit and three the ads i ve seen for the wristbands indicate they re charging a wristband as i ve seen them the wristbands look like clear plastic with multi coloured rainbow threads in them labeled march on washington the being your particular wristband number certainly not everyone at the march on washington will be willing to shell out five bucks for a piece of plastic i bought mine at the mow storefront its not plastic its woven material but i think you miss the point its not about the five bucks in your pocket its about supporting the march and helping to pay for all the printed materail and scehdulkes and organisation and all leading up to the literal birth of queer visibility in this country up to this point all our news coverage has been driven by events thatb happen to us this event is happening by our direct action of course the last mow was the same thing but they ignored us i guess that was just labor pains perhaps they will ignore us again in which case we will come in even largeer numbers next time lst night in dc there were so many queers out and about you could hardly get in any place i suspect thatb over the next two days that will become exponentially larger to my mind this is a physical bsuting down of the collective closet of queer invisibility the five bucks is insignificant lux owen d owen rowley onr netcom com also owen autodesk com eu phoria a state of well being euphoria is my natural state i do what i enjoy and an abundance of all good fortune comes to me for it
talk.politics.misc	re i couldn t care less in article apr osuunx ucc okstate edu kennejs a cs okstate edu kennedy james scot writes in article apr msuvx memst edu mech msuvx memst edu writes in article aej d cmuvm bitnet aej d cmuvm bitnet writes above quote from rush s radio show yesterday when he referred to recent events near waco texas me either yes it s regrettable that eighty some odd people died but they could have walked out the door with the simple turn of a knob it s just plain stupid to lay the blame for this at anyones feet but ol vernon s if the fbi batf started the fire why did it take six or so hours to catch timed incendiary devices you say could those idiots not have picked them up and tossed them out the window and what of this argument about whether a wood burning stove was being used it s a known fact that when a city is under seige the citzens thereof eat what they can how they can hell the bd s could ve had mre type grub for all any of us know my conscience is clear does the word smolder mean anything to you several minutes can go by before a smoldering cigarette butt in a couch sets the couch on fire here s a possible maybe very possible scenario one of the cs gas grenades that the fbi threw in earlier caused some material like the drapes or carpet to smolder for an extended period of time later on when a tank punched a hole in the wall knocking over one of the bds kerosene lanterns kerosene spilled onto this smoldering material resulting in a fire that killed people inside another possibility and this results in a fire that starts in one room and torches the entire place before anyone in the adjacent rooms can escape i don t think so so much for the smolder theory donavan sorry no catchy quotes
talk.politics.misc	re mow bodycount oh just a note my usually poor typing is made even more dificult by the small keyboard and mutiple connections i am piped through in order to access news while here in dc i m really not trying to irritate the spelling mavens lux owen d owen rowley onr netcom com also owen autodesk com eu phoria a state of well being euphoria is my natural state i do what i enjoy and an abundance of all good fortune comes to me for it
talk.politics.misc	re waco burning on apr turmoil halcyon com tim crowley said tim nntp posting host nwfocus wa com tim goykhman apollo hp com red herring writes in article bb ef v a vm temple edu v a vm temple edu richard hoenes writes yes we ve heard that the survivors are now saying that we ve also seen the videotape which shows that the fire started in two or three different places which weren t near the tank i have not seen the tape on cnn which network did you see it on tim i saw the film on cnn as it happend it was clear from that tim tape that the fire started in one location right where the tim tank was attacking and then had pulled back there were not tim several spots where the fire started it started in one tim location and was spread in the direction of the heavy wind tim the fbi claims to have seen or filmed several starting tim points yet they keep this hidden they have spread so much tim lies well i guess if i was responsible for the mass murder tim of people who were exercising constitutional rights i tim would lie about it too gosh tim you must have seen a different live broadcast than i did while the smoke did emerge from one place initially it was a considerable distance from the tank and in a very short time fire appeared at several places a good distance apart from there then there s that nagging question about why out of all those people only a few made any attempts to escape or save the children if it were me with my child and i wasn t committing suicide i believe i would have made some attempt to at least save the child as it was at least one of the survivors was attempting to go back into the fire when they were physically removed no one lifted a finger to bring out a child apparently how do you explain that and the two survivors who claimed to have doused the place with lantern oil and set the fire no doubt on david s orders at least until the lawyers talked to them tim and also why have they not yet released the search warrant that is a good question maybe because it would be a further embarrassment seeing as how the atf went in there in dirty harry mode initially as stupidly as it all was handled i find it difficult to believe that the entire fbi has completely gone corrupt under a new administration less than days old stupidity and bad decisions and plans have always been with us they just had an alignment at waco tim seeeeee ya turmoil halcyon com fuck the police see freedom of speech abounds l yeh buddy larry psl nmsu edu larry cunningham i ve got your computer physical science laboratory o right here new mexico state university computer this las cruces new mexico usa disclaimer opinions expressed here are correct mine and not psls or nmsus oh sure we could do it the easy way but it just wouldn t be the cowboy way
talk.politics.misc	re ap journalists arrested in waco in article jason apr ab larc nasa gov jason ab larc nasa gov jason austin writes a good way to get shot there was also no indication in that story that they wouldn t get their cameras and film back after getting out of jail oh they ll get it back with exposed film shortly after the rodney king episode a woman here in dayton used a camcorder to tape the police arresting several youths upon noticing her the police arrested her for jaywalking and accidently erased the tape while they had it yep they ll get their film back allright brett there s nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction sean o casey in the white plague by frank herbert
talk.politics.misc	re motor voter in article r tjninngcu bigbird williams edu csw williams edu walter gib gibson writes motor voter stuff my friend after the election brought up the point that it would enable more people to vote however since it makes it easier to get to the place of registration he brought up the analogy that if there were only one place to vote say in alaska would it be excessive and wasteful to petition to have more places to vote this is a similar idea a way to encourage more people to vote by making it more easily accessible i not knowing where i stood played devil s advocate and said well would you have the taxpayer s money go to busing for those people that have trouble making it to dmv then where does the right to vote merge with the right to vote easily where should we draw the lines well there does have to be a line and to be honest extending voter registration to dmvs is hardly analogous to having only one place for registration in alaska and opening a new one in atlanta more is not always better once you ve passed a certain point my friend said that that is obviously an extreme and that actually the motor voter bill would save money because no longer would the city have to pay someone to sit in the town hall and spend all his her time filing those things they d just be at the push of a button or the filling out of an x at dmv so i actually someone else but there s no need to confuse this anymore countered again saying that wouldn t congress as always get exorbitent budgets and fund committees to orchestrate and oversee the implementation the argument went back and forth forever ranging from whether or not it s better to have more people voting whether that is even relevant etc just looking for some more opinions anybody got em i thought the motor voter bill passed in any case my experiance with tennessee s voter registration system which you can register with by mail by the way is that nobody who is interested in voting is being denied access to registration all it requires is just the tiniest bit of interest on the registrant s part and thinking about the election once in the eleven months prior to it once you register it s good unless you miss for years worth of elections of move it s easy to register now i simply don t see the value in going out and trying to get people registered who don t have enough gumption to even write and have the proper forms sent to them how can we expect responsible decisions out of these people david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.misc	re atf burns dividian ranch update in article apr osuunx ucc okstate edu kennejs a cs okstate edu kennedy james scot writes in article nate psygate psych indiana edu nate psygate psych indiana edu nathan engle writes aej d cmuvm bitnet writes ah yes i see a few liberal weenies have come out of the woodwork to defend the burning of the children yeah those nazis you know how we liberals just love those nazis cigarette cops nazis who said nazism is dead we got a bunch of them right here in the good ol us of a no we don t they might be zealous and maybe the bureau shouldn t exist by some people but they are not nazis why do people toss around the nazi label so easily personal opinions why brent irvine yes what did you think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu they were
talk.politics.misc	voting system regulations for the european parliament since the members of the european parliament the parliamentary assemby of the european community have been elected directly by the citizens of the member states before the members of the european parliament meps were just members of national parliaments mnps elected by and from among their peers in the european parliament every member state has a fixed number of seats which increases less than proportionally with the population once in five years a general european election is being held in which the citizens of all member states choose their representatives to the european parliament next elections are due in now the voting system for these european elections still differs from one country to another although the european treaty enabling the direct election of the meps requires a uniform voting system up to now every country has just used its own system more or less the same one used for national elections british meps are elected in a first past the post system with one mep per district nearly all other states have chosen a system with proportional representation but then in some countries france italy meps are allowed to be a mnp as well whilst in others they are not belgium netherlands the european parliament is now working on a uniform election system for its own members so that every candidate should have the same regulations to comply with regardless of the member state s he wants to be elected for i would like to know what you people out there think of the following questions do you think it is necessary to have uniform regulations or should every member state continue to use its own regulations for european elections that is do you think a system of majority voting should be implemented with one or more meps per district or would you prefer a system with proportional representation for the whole of the community or per state per region per district do you think the european commission or just its president should be directly elected too or should it be appointed by the european parliament or by the joint member state governments as it is now the maastricht treaty allows subjects of member states to stand for election in another member state they are residing in do you think you would or could vote for a foreigner if his her ideas appeal to you do you think meps should be allowed to be a member of a national parliament or a regional parliament too or a member of a national or regional government body the european parliament now has meetings in both strasbourg and brussels meps themselves are for a complete move to brussels in great majority but political compromises between the governments of the member states stick to the status quo do you approve of this or do you think the european parliament should meet in one city only and if yes which please post your answers to eunet politics to which all followups are automatically directed if you do not have access to that group please mail your answer directly to me and i will post it for you i hope many of you will take the time to post their views on this matter roland siebelink lokaal b centrum voor de studie van nieuwe vrije universiteit brussel scom nmit media informatie en telecommunicatie pleinlaan brussel belgium tel direkt e mail rcsiebel vnet vub ac be tel centrum talk rcsiebel is vub ac be fax centrum
talk.politics.misc	re cults waco insanity in article c wa g cc apollo hp com nelson p apollo hp com peter nelson writes in article c w c h srgenprp sr hp com patk sr hp com patrick kearney writes i ask this question because there is a tradition and one that is highly regarded by many people that several hundred jews elected to throw themselves off a cliff at masada rather than submit to roman rule the circumstances at masada and those at waco would seem in general terms quite similar and yet so far as i m aware nobody has seriously suggested that the jews were insane as has already been pointed out the jews faced a totally different fate at the hand of the romans than did koresh at the hand of the feds the jewish men would most likely have been crucified the the women and children sold into slavery one can well argue that koresh may have thought that a similar fate awaited him but there was scant rational basis for that fear so insane seems to describe any such belief what is the penalty if convicted of murdering federal agents in texas the death penalty none of which excuses the reckless action of the feds who allegedly believing they were dealing with a nut should have exercise much more restraint indeed given their stated goals of saving the children one might also apply the moniker insane to the feds actions yup russ anderson disclaimer any statements are my own and do not reflect upon my employer or anyone else c ex twins jack morris innings pitched runs world series mvp
talk.politics.misc	re waco burning in article apr linus mitre org bs gauss mitre org robert d silverman writes in article r iiinn p mojo eng umd edu russotto eng umd edu matthew t russotto writes in article c u ev ta noose ecn purdue edu garrod dynamo ecn purdue edu david garrod writes b b c world news service on short wave originating out of london reports that a survivor of the waco massacre states that a tank when making a hole in the wall of the building knocked over a kerosene lamp and that is how the fire started attempts were made by the people inside to put out the fire but it spread too quickly we re hearing it it sure rings true it s consistent in a way that mass suicide by fire is not this survivor is also saying that they it rings true there was a separate report that an overhead helicopter which was recording the entire incident on video tape has a visual record of several files i think the number was mentioned starting at different parts of the compound has this video been made public the fbi spokesman also said they first knew of the fire when black smoke started pouring out but later said that three different fbi agents saw b d members starting the fires also the fbi claims to have listening devices bugs in the compound will they make public the tapes of what the b d said to me this attempt to blame the fbi for starting the fire simply looks like an attempt by a survivor to shift blame away from the b d s i think it is a crock well sealing the initial search warrent keeping the media miles away not letting the b d talk to the public making contradictory statements not releasing the vidio tapes are not steps to ensure public confidence in their actions russ anderson disclaimer any statements are my own and do not reflect upon my employer or anyone else c ex twins jack morris innings pitched runs world series mvp
talk.politics.misc	re f o cus health millions of america in article apr desire wright edu demon desire wright edu not a boomer says in article bb d e pa utkvm utk edu pa utkvm utk edu david veal writes here s a question for those of you far more informed about health care than i am my almanac quoting oecd health data lists u s public health expenditures for as being of gdp or of total health expenditures are we really paying of our expenditures to insure of our population heh no doubt more evidence that the government is more efficient than evil for profit health care proving once again that brett has a major thinking problem two groups that the government insure are the elderly and the medically an needy those who have impoverished themselves through spending for medical care the typical elderly person spends times what a person under age the typical medically needy person spends about times what the average person does you ve got to adjust those data brett these words and thoughts are my own i am not bound to swear allegiance to the word of any master where the storm carries me i put into port and make d shea psu myself at home
talk.politics.misc	the real source of trouble in the us health care system cancel private health insurance when government care that only covers of the population consumes of the spending for health care not national health expenditures to includes puerto rico and outlying areas year health services and supplies billions private public of total of total of total of total source american almanac page edition now you understand where most of that of gnp is going to waste by these figures private insurance is spending of the money to cover times as many people go figure brett there s nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction sean o casey in the white plague by frank herbert
talk.politics.misc	re vietnam deja vu in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes the waco whacko bar b q caused me to remember an official explanation from the vietnam war the s liberal version is it was necessary to incinerate the children in order to save them and yet this callous incident of disregard for life you call a bar b q
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article pdb kilimanjaro jpl nasa gov pdb ipl jpl nasa gov paul bartholomew writes to clayton cramer when are you going to stop lying and admit that the whole crusade is based on your own personal hatred fear and obsession you need help mr cramer the saddest thing is that most people like cramer s wife learn dislike for homosexuality early in childhood clayton however is so impressionable that he let his wife sucker him on this issue as a full grown adult
talk.politics.misc	re the real source of trouble in the us health care system in article apr desire wright edu demon desire wright edu not a boomer writes cancel private health insurance when government care that only covers of the population consumes of the spending for health care not national health expenditures to includes puerto rico and outlying areas year health services and supplies billions private public of total of total of total of total source american almanac page edition now you understand where most of that of gnp is going to waste by these figures private insurance is spending of the money to cover times as many people go figure the private insurance industry skims the cream off the milk simple gerald
talk.politics.misc	question about representation in a debate about the student government here at our university a question was raised by one student senator why should i represent people who didn t vote and by implication this raises a different question why should i represent people who didn t vote for me i feel that there are many good reasons that anyone elected to public office in student government or any other government should strive to represent all the people in their constituency class of or a geographical area or whatever i would like some help from others in phrasing a reasonable argument on this topic thanks followups are directed to talk politics misc but email is preferred jim ault its systems programmer rpi troy ny usa aultj rpi edu
talk.politics.misc	re clayton is an asshole but we all already know that in article rogerdc x df jhz netcom com rogerd netcom com roger d writes adisak pochanayon pochanay cae wisc edu wrote in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes homosexuals are vicious screwed up often really evil people i ve learned quite a bit in the last two years evil vicious dishonest lying scum is the only way to describe homosexuals clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine i believe that clayton is full of shit who could believe anyone so biased and so obviously misaligned if he were the slightest bit open minded he wouldn t write such slanted smears especially to generalize an entire group of people i would say this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black really now why is this the pot calling the kettle black i am stating that a person who shows a continually biased opinion is close minded and that his opinion should be ignored clayton is stating that a group of at least two million american citizens are evil vicious malicious child molesters here s a hypothetical question if clayton said something like all those niggers are really stupid please don t be offended i m not racist but merely using an example of clayton s malign logic and then said he read a report that a lot of blacks in inner cities dropped out of school i bet he wouldn t have your support yet he can claim that all homosexuals are dishonest evil lying child molesters without personally having a single homosexual friend or acquaintance and you ll sit there and support him god created a place for bigots it s called hell and clayton is going to burn there for a long time i pray for him to find in his heart the christian values he espouses so that he can learn to love his gay brothers and sisters because anyone with so much hatred in his soul coulld never be righteous
talk.politics.misc	re waco investigation paranoia in article bb b a v a vm temple edu v a vm temple edu richard hoenes writes can people please stop the i think know the batf fbi are completely responsible but they ll cover it up so that the investigation will show that koresch is responsible bs well they could unseal the original warrent why was i sealed in the first place release their video tapes from their listening devices inside the compound and quit makeing contradictory statements do you believe their statement that the children were killed by lethal injection they later stated that the childrens bodies were burned to the point the would be hard to identify so how did they come up with the lethal injection theory in an investigation of this size with the feds state and civilians involved in the investigation it would be practially impossible to cover up unless the evidence was destroyed or other evidence planted and with republicans like arlen spector calling for investigations this isn t going to be handled with kid gloves you mean magic bullet spector i know a lone gunman killed all the branch davidians russ anderson disclaimer any statements are my own and do not reflect upon my employer or anyone else c ex twins jack morris innings pitched runs world series mvp
talk.politics.misc	re waco burning russotto eng umd edu matthew t russotto writes mst zeus tamu edu mitchell s todd writes russotto eng umd edu matthew t russotto writes we re hearing it it sure rings true it s consistent in a way that mass suicide by fire is not this survivor is also saying that they were trapped inside by the damage done by the tanks why is an accidental fire more plausible than a mass suicide considering that the davidians were an apocalyptic cult with a history of armed violence if the fbi has reason to lie about the cause of the fire if it resulted from their own negligence then the bd survivors also have reason to lie if they started the blaze the fbi claims the fire was set simultaneously in three places they claim the building was filled with tear gas electricity was cut off tanks were rolling all around how did the bds co ordinate the setting of the fire it s fairly simple it was decided to burn the place down and more than one agent was dispatched to set the fires in separate parts of the compound i doubt that simultaneously means at the exact same time in this case it likely means close enough together to preclude them from being part of the same fire the fbi claims that men with torches set the fires but haven t released any evidence of this though it seems inconcievable that they don t have any if it was true they might be waiting until the evidence comes in from the site and the investigation is at least well underway all of the bds previous actions were aimed towards their survival not their death the same could be said of jonestown the idea that kerosene lamps would be all over the place with electricity cut off makes sense the idea that ramming tanks into the building would spill them and cause a fire makes sense the possibility that the fbi wouldn t know this is nil it wasn t simple negligence maybe then again i ve been suprised at what folks have missed in the past in similar situations don t jump t oconclusions mitchell s todd mst zeus tamu edu
talk.politics.misc	re waco burning in article r jjinnnmm ctron news ctron com smith ctron com writes mst zeus tamu edu mitchell s todd writes why is an accidental fire more plausible than a mass suicide considering that the davidians were an apocalyptic cult with a history of armed violence because the place was a tinder box with straw bales for insulation and they wouldn t have time to die from smoke inhalation before the fire reached them those people burned to death a truly horrible and agonizingly painful way to die which i don t think even a fanatic would willingly inflict on himself let alone his family you don t know much about the fall of diem s government in vietnam or the traditional indian practice of suttee people have been burning themselves to death or willing to go through such and end for political and religious reasons since the beginning of time also death from smoke inhalation is little better than dying from the flames themselves think about breatning in searing toxic gasses it s not pleasant to anyone who remembered jim jones and who thought that mass suicide was a real possibility self immolation would simply not be the method of choice then again to a buddhist monk it might be to each his own far more likely to be bombs bullets or poisoned kool aid that s not to say they definitely didn t do it i don t make claims either way but i find the idea implausible enough to want to see the gov t thoroughly inves tigated to determine if they started the fire by accident i m waiting to see what the government has too mitchell s todd mst zeus tamu edu
talk.politics.misc	re f o cus health the big secret in article apr desire wright edu demon desire wright edu not a boomer writes in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes in article apr desire wright edu demon desire wright edu not a boomer writes blue cross is the government health insurance provider oops oops blue cross may well be the insurer for government workers in massachusetts as it is for a number of state and local governments i don t know but blue cross is certainly not a government agency it is a private insurer yes it is a private insurer that has to deal with government regulations concerning how it s employees are to be covered processed etc there are a mountain of forms that gov employees have to go through sorry but this is a red herring are you contending that the mountain of forms are processed by blue cross having had blue cross insurance both as a government employee and as an employee of a private corporation i saw no difference between the two sets of forms moreover the administrative costs associated with medicare medicaid the two primary forms of government insurance are considerably lower than the average for private insurance companies versus if you have any evidence that blue cross bears a heavier burden in insuring government employees than private employees post it otherwise try to stick to factual assertions and as the original post implied it is private insurers in the us whose administrative costs are significantly higher than the administrative costs of tax supported health care systems in canada and elsewhere only those that remain paper bound and refuse to standardize well now that s an interesting defense of the free enterprise system are you contending that it is government intervention that prevents private insurance companies from standardizing in fact it is true that some of the red tape burden stems from the lack of standardization among the or so private insurers in the us but it s a little difficult to understand how this is anything other than free enterprise at work by the way barron s the bible of wall street this week admitted that administrative costs were significantly lower in canada because a single payer system is always cheaper guess even the free enterprise advocates are beginning to see the light try again why my hmo provides good service at a low cost and i don t have the government telling my doctors what they can and can not say about medical procedures sorry but you seem to be confusing proposals with health care reform with the bush administration s gag order on federally funded family planning clinics there are no proposals that would control what your doctor can and cannot say about medical procedures try again jsh steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
talk.politics.misc	re the earth also pollutes some scientists do not believe in article c udn gr ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com mark wilson says many environmentalists attributed the drought in the u s to global warming but researchers with the national center for atmospheric research in educated and open minded environmentalists do not one of the most effective come backs i have seen in a long time everybody who disagrees with me is stupid and closed minded no what it means is that i like a majority of environmental scientists researchers agree that el nino la nina and the southern oscillations are the systems involoved in that climatic phenomena categorized by humans as a drought furthermore in response to an earlier message the u s est output of sulfur dioxide mill tons was equivalent to the entire output by the recent eruption of mt pinautubo sp currently world carbon dioxide levels set at approx ppm in the past years it has never gone above this info was found using ice core samples from the joint french russian u s vostok project furthermore the background emmisions of chlorine compounds into the atmoshpere is about ppb annually it now sits at this overwhelming data info is found in the world resources doc published by oxford university the ozone hole in the northern and southern hemispheres keeps getting bigger and stickin around longer whilst skeptics ponder how wrong or corrupt all this data from government and international scientific institutions is it is a pity that if the skeptics are wrong and we base our complacency on their limbaugh psycho babble then we will find ourselves strapped by limited options with which to rectify the primal engineering of our industrial age my employer doesn t subscribe to my opinions just the data disclaimer
talk.politics.misc	re major burger chain offers in talk politics misc demon desire wright edu not a boomer writes janet how do you like your hostages a quick fried to a crackly crunch a baked to a delicate crunch would you like fries with that sir
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in an article rick howtek mv com rick roy writes this is called notquotingtheentirearticle tm try it which you refer please note that many religious beliefs evolved from basic pragmatic principles of day to day living if we had lived certainly many religious beliefs seem to be positive principles for everyday living indeed i believe it is the islamic religion which avoids alcohol i apologize if i name the wrong religion and that is certainly a physical positive in many respects however this proves nothing just because something is a basic pragmatic principle of day to day living today doesn t mean it evolved from the same especially those beliefs and mostly positions held based on interpretations of the religion religious beliefs come from many places but most will be backed up after many levels of arguments to because that s how it is written or god says now i m not faulting that but that is not a basic pragmatic principle as you mean it in this context it is a belief based on faith which by definition is not necessarily backed up by logic faith is a given god is a absolute truth when arguing from religion also many religions would reject your thesis that their beliefs simply come from these day to day principles in summation if you wish to use religious arguments be prepared to back them up with it says in the fill in religious document here because most religions things which at least i denote as religions are based on the writings of or teachings of fill in religious figure here note religion is a charged topic and if i offended anyone regarding my references to god i apologize please insert your own sensible references the argument should apply to nearly all religions kristofer kmunn tudor com the opinions expressed within are solely those of the author and are subject to change when confronted with new information and logical coherent arguments
talk.politics.misc	re the earth also pollutes some scientists do not believe rodger scoggin ksc nasa gov rodger c scoggin writes furthermore in response to an earlier message the u s est output of sulfur dioxide mill tons was equivalent to the entire output by the recent eruption of mt pinautubo sp currently world carbon dioxide levels set at approx ppm in the past years it has never gone above this info was found using ice core samples from the joint french russian u s vostok project furthermore the background emmisions of chlorine compounds into the atmoshpere is about ppb annually it now sits at this overwhelming data info is found in the world resources doc published by oxford university good evidence the ozone hole in the northern and southern hemispheres keeps getting bigger and stickin around longer whilst skeptics ponder how wrong or corrupt all this data from government and international scientific institutions is it is a pity that if the skeptics are wrong and we base our complacency on their limbaugh psycho babble then we will find ourselves strapped by limited options with which to rectify the primal engineering of our industrial age what ozone hole in the northern hemisphere what exactly will happen if we get an ozone hole in the upper atmosphere according to the senior chicken little at nasa as much more uv radiation as if one moved miles south certainly not the calamity that is being imagined by eco lunatics co is going up so what there s no evidence that the increase is due to burning fossil fuels no evidence that increasing co will increase temperatures and no evidience that raising temperatures will do anything but good ie make millions of acres of tundra into productive life bearing land chris burian
talk.politics.misc	re waco investigation paranoia v a vm temple edu richard hoenes writes and with republicans like arlen spector calling for investigations this isn t going to be handled with kid gloves it will be ironic in the extreme if spector manages to uncover a government conspiracy and cover up in this case maybe he ll posit a magic grenade that lit fires in three wings of the building at once joe knapp jmk cbvox att com
talk.politics.misc	re waco burning russotto eng umd edu matthew t russotto writes the idea that kerosene lamps would be all over the place with electricity cut off makes sense the idea that ramming tanks into the building would spill them and cause a fire makes sense as does the idea that a cs gas canister can get hot enough to ignite dry baled hay lazlo lazlo triton unm edu
talk.politics.misc	re some scientists do not believe in the green house effect mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com mark wilson writes in apr titan ksc nasa gov rodger scoggin ksc nasa gov rodger c scoggin writes in article vb b w w cellar org techie cellar org william a bacon says the word some sums it up alot of scientist have concluded that without a doubt global climate will is occur ring and should be dealt with by source without a doubt some warming will occur however there is mucho disagreement on how much warming will occur the original doomsdayers were claiming to degrees farhenheit lately they have been saying degrees newer studies hint that it might be less than a degree of course then there s the other side an article in yesterday s atlanta journal stated that there are many scientists who have misgivings that the data being used to determine whether or not global warming is occuring is faulty the point that the article made is that all long term temperature dataa collected has been in urban areas and that any heat rise can be attributed to the growth and urbanization of the area they called it the asphalt temperature trend we have no real long term data on remote areas such as the middle of the amazon rain forest or the top of mt everest or the gobi desert for that matter an accompanying article mentioned that a group of scientists at nasa had developed a method for using a satellite to collect temperature data globally and that preliminary results showed a slight downward trend attributed to the mt pinatubo eruption it went on to say that even with the current downward trend there appeared to be no change in global temperatures using trend prediction methods for at least the next years i can quote the article verbatim if you like tom gillman systems programmer aaaaagggghhhh wells computer center ga state univ any classic star trek security syshtg gsusgi gsu edu officer sometime during the show gsu doesn t care what i say on the internet why should you
talk.politics.misc	re watergate was temper tantrums from the s in article apr oracle us oracle com mfriedma us oracle com michae writes in article apr pony ingres com garrett ingres com writes in article apr oracle us oracle com mfriedma us oracle com michae writes in article apr pony ingres com garrett ingres com writes in article philc lru lxa netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes in article apr pony ingres com garrett ingres com writes why did ford go to the trouble of pardoning him if he did nothing wrong duh garrett you ignorant slut read up on watergate so are all you guys so unarticulate that you all must must call names are none of you above grade school levels in intelligence jesus garret haven t you ever watched saturday night live not only are you a historical ignoramus but you are also a cultural ignoramus what does saturday night live have to do with anything when they make fun of someone they do it with a little bit of creativity and talent you on the other hand have a complete lack of creativity talent and verbal mechanics and if you think that snl is culture then it just shows where your intellectual level is what is generally accepted is that nixon attempted to cover up the break in after it occurred it was actions in pursuit of that end that he was pardoned for you of course are so ignorant of history that you think that he was involved in the break in i guess that makes you even dumber than me then because he was officially accused of alot more than that let me list it for you obstructing justice as part of the coverup granted abusing his presidential powers to do the coverup only in part let s not forget that nixon personally authorized the break in of ellsberg s psychiatrist subverting the constitutional rights of citizens i challenge you to provided any evidence that nicon was officially accused of thi if nothing else it s meaningless how can you subvert someone s constitutional rights the verb doesn t go with the noun tell that to the house that was the charge or are you going to challenge me on that as well subverting the constitutional rights of citizens has nothing to do with covering up for watergate you have been proved wrong again but i don t expect you to believe this since your arrogance has replaced your reason and willfully disobeying lawful subpoenas for white house records and tapes part of the coverup granted garrett please note that every charge you mention except for the one that has no english meaning was part of the coverup wrong again you forgot about ellsberg btw why od you think he tried to cover it up loyalty to people who worked for him this would be funny if it weren t so sad that you actually believe this in his loyalty he allowed the people who worked for him to take the rap while he idly sat by and let it happen if he really was loyal to the people who worked for them he would have pardoned them before he resigned death to all modifiers he declared one day and out of garrett johnson every letter that passed through his hands went every garrett ingres com adverb and adjective the next day he made war on articles the following day he blacked out everything in the letters but a an and the joseph heller s catch
talk.politics.misc	re watergate was temper tantrums from the s in article apr oracle us oracle com mfriedma us oracle com michae writes in article apr pony ingres com garrett ingres com writes in article philc n a mbf netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes in article apr pony ingres com garrett ingres com writes well it really doesn t matter anyway because i really don t care what liars think of me anyway what did i call you liars you want proof i d be glad to provide it i m really sure which ones of you said these things since you all sound the same anyway one of you said nixon didn t start any secret wars this is a lie nixon had full knowledge of the invasions of laos and cambodia and then lied to the american public about it note however that these were military actions but not wars what a joke you can t actually believe what you just said can you we bombed and invaded these countries notice the definition of war from the american heritage dictionary a state or period of armed conflict between nations or states this qualifies the invasions of cambodia and laos as wars one of you said nixon didn t use the office of the presidency for personal gain this is a lie the senate committee issued an indictment that listed nixon s crimes the relevant ones were violating his oath of office abusing his presidential powers excuse me but neither of these refer to personal gain then let me explain this to you really slowly why did he abuse the powers of his position could it have been to gain personal political power naw that would be too obvious so now you re big thing that you have been flogging me with is that i mistook prc for people s republic of cambodia since i knew that cambodia was socialist at the time and since your comment was right in middle of a conversation about cambodia i made the wrong assumption that we were talking about the same thing ah but garrett anyone who has to make assumptions about the meaning of the initials prc in a discussion about asia is breathtakingly ignorant and anyone who can only call names because his position is defensless is breathtakingly ignorant and desperate i noticed that you edited out the other points were i proved you and phil to be completely wrong death to all modifiers he declared one day and out of garrett johnson every letter that passed through his hands went every garrett ingres com adverb and adjective the next day he made war on articles the following day he blacked out everything in the letters but a an and the joseph heller s catch
talk.politics.misc	re waco is gov t fault was re libertarian party on cia fbi atf in article c wkyg fy dscomsa desy de hallam zeus desy de writes in article apr happy uccs edu etbeteille happy uccs edu writes here are several shreds of evidence that prove the waco disaster is the government s fault they raided an american s property because of rumors about koresh s intentions with some converted yet still nd amendment protected firearms a judge approved warrant justifies nothing in a democracy under the rule of law a search warrant justifies a search the us constitution does not justify murder of those attempting to mount a search for illegally held weapons a search for illegally held weapons if there were any no evidence yet produced to this effect does not justify firing into a house with women and children either it also does not justify shooting first without identifying oneself the atf and fbi have done this before so don t say they haven t please or producing a warrant guess it depends on whose story one believes huh it took them days to think of a basic terrorist tactic i e tear gas and this could only be justified in support of rescuing any supposed hostages inside the govt has a right to use lethal force in certain cases attempts to capture dangerous criminals who are armed and threatening the lives of others which others are we talking about here is one in this case they used sub lethal force sub lethal excuse me but those people are dead the gov t immediately imprisoned these so called hostages the children were held hostage evidence so far the fbi has produced none don t hold your breath the adults were wanted variously for murder and conspiracy to murder only a few of those being held in chains and s hackles are wanted the rest are being held for the crime of being material witnesses it took hundreds of gov t agents with tax funded cellular phones ten minutes to dial for the fire department they should not have called the fire dept at all there was no role for them to play in a situation where those that might be rescued might well shoot at them it was not the feds decision to make but the firefighters calling the fire dept meant that waco was deprived of a resource that might have been needed elsewhere should a situation where it could have been used arisen this is true of any answer to a call for help from a fire department by any citizen since fire departments do answer calls that deprive resources that might be needed elsewhere it is not a valid reason for not calling them further since the davidians had not been found guilty of any crime in a court of law they are subject to the same protection as any other citizen and las far as i know even criminals in prison are not left to burn to death in a fire by cutting off the water supply in the surrounding area the gov t guaranteed that any fire at the compound would be fatal any fire started deliberately uising lamp oil is likely to be fatal i guess this is a matter of religious faith with you the government says it so it must be so or haven t you been reading this thread well enough to notice that some of us here don t beleive their story no one had the foresight to station rescue vehicles nearby in the first place they are a scarce resource a bunch of psychos cannot deprive the neighbourhood of a resource that might be required in a genuine case patients in psychiatric hospitals are not left to die in fires either besides as i explained some of us here believe their distress might have been genuine are you so certain it wasn t the gov t conveniently forgot all that freedom of religion stuff freedom of religion does not include human sacrifice nor does it include other forms of murder there is no evidence that the davidians committed human sacrifice either before of after the initial raid and self defense is not murder the gov t arguably started or at least fanned the fire themselves the govt arguably is run by communists or the trilateral commission he did not say it was deliberate accidents do not require conspiracy theories only wanton disregard for human life the initial raid alone agents firing blind into walls against all standards of law enforce ment procedure proves they did not mind killing people finally and this may be a stretch for some of you statists out there but koresh s original reasons for holing up in such a compound may have something to do with the continual interference from the gov t new taxes new regulations and increasing involvement in every aspect of our personal and economic lives life on a compound might become the way of the future it might have to be let us hope that those who support koresh are not allowed to enforce this upon the rest of us no one here is supporting koresh we are opposing the illegal use of excessive violence by our government against our citizens that is all their reasons for supporting the ownership of high power weaponry are clear enough they hope that this will be the catylist for the destruction of the fabric of society and allow them to enforce their nightmare vision of the future a society that believes it is ok to terrorize people for their religious views will destroy itself in due time it is the feds who disrupted the fabric of society in waco not koresh it is the feds who forced a nightmare onto the people of mount carmel it would be a good thing for people to study history on what basis do you assume we haven t don t you really mean it would be a good thing if people drew the same conclusions from history that i do in particular a group of militant militant implies acts of aggression against one s neighbors the davidians left their neighbors alone religious heretics who left to set up such a community some time ago a few years latter they had captured medina and destroyed the idols in the kabba within ten years the whole of arabia was under islam so what the mormons were considered a cult for years and were chased out of one place after another on much the same thinking as you are advocating when they finally got to set up a community they left people alone so far americans haven t been put to the sword by mormon hordes crying to avenge joseph smith just because a group of people start by saying that all they want is to be left alone does not mean that that is how they will stay it doesn t mean they won t either anyway the whole purpose of a system of laws is to punish people for what they do not what they might do the pat robertsons oral roberts and jimmy swaggarts of this world are quite telling other people how to run their lives telling is not the same as forcing when the police knock at my door i cannot make them go away by changing the channei as for pat and friends i don t even watch their channel since i am an atheist so far not watching them tell me what to do hasn t gotten me killed if you allow such people to get guns and point them in your face you are likely to find that they are running your life right now the only people sticking guns in anyone s faces is the government and they are trying very hard to run my life or haven t you noticed phill hallam baker christian struble college libertarians of texas uh chapter mece d jetson uh edu box calhoun houston tx the true civilization is where every man gives to every other every right that he claims for himself robert ingersoll
talk.politics.misc	re cults waco insanity in article c w c h srgenprp sr hp com patk sr hp com patrick kearney writes assuming for the sake of argument that the branch davidian people immolated themselves in the manner described by the federal authorities why does the general consensus appear to be that they the bd were insane is it the manner of their behaviour before they died or the fact they chose to kill themselves rather than submit to the government i ask this question because there is a tradition and one that is highly regarded by many people that several hundred jews elected to throw themselves off a cliff at masada rather than submit to roman rule the circumstances at masada and those at waco would seem in general terms quite similar and yet so far as i m aware nobody has seriously suggested that the jews were insane the point of this comparison is to question the use of the word cult in discussing the events at waco why were the davidians a cult and not the jews at masada what constitutes a cult is it the size of the membership or a matter of respectability or perhaps the length of time it s been in existence are the catholics a cult how about the mormons or the calvinists is a sect a respectible cult dictionary definitions aside since popular usage seems to carry more weight i suspect that the word cult is used in a perjorive sense when speaking of groups like the davidians it is rather like the word boss when used to describe someone unpopular or someone the government wishes to make unpopular like say castro the communist boss of cuba one doesn t hear clinton described as america s democratic or capitalist boss well for one thing most if not all the dividians depending on whether they could show they acted in self defense and there were no illegal weapons could have gone on with their life as they were living it no one was forcing them to give up their religion or even their legal weapons the dividians had survived a change in leadership before so even if koresch himself would have been convicted and sent to jail they still could have carried on i don t think the dividians were insane but i don t see a reason for mass suicide if the fire was intentional set by some of the dividians we also don t know that if the fire was intentionally set from inside was it a generally know plan or was this something only an inner circle knew about or was it something two or three felt they had to do with or without koresch s knowledge blessing etc i don t know much about masada were some people throwing others over did mothers jump over with their babies in their arms richard
talk.politics.misc	re drugs and crime a new approach mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com mark wilson writes missing the entire point of my post kebarnes msuvx memst edu wrote given that the trade in illegal drugs is responsible for much of the crime which afflicts our nation there is much evidence that it is the fact that the drugs are illegal not the drugs themselves that have caused the violence witness prohibition and the violence that surrounded the trade in alcohol no joke people who want drugs particularly people who are predisposed to addiction will find a way to get them whether or not they are legally available this is suppossed to be an argument for keeping drugs illegal no you jumped to that conclusion it s actually an argument as to how to accomplish the societal good of discouraging drug use without violating individual rights despite current law enforcement efforts drugs are readily available to those who want them this is suppossed to be an argument for keeping drugs illegal no you missed the point the point is the war on drugs is a failure and is counterproductive addiction to drugs boh legal and illegal is responsible for a significant drain on the productive resources of our country and this occurs in a variety of ways from the cocaine addicted babies who are unable to learn to the spread of disease among addicts to the tragic consequences of alcohol abuse and tobacco smoking the crack baby scenario has been thouroughly discredited it just so happens that the symptoms seen in the crack babies are identical to fetal alcohol syndrome and the mothers who admitted to taking crack also admitted to drinking heavily during pregnancy in this country people are free to be stupid if they want to but they are not free to be stupid and injure other people admittedly the fetal right to life is outside the scope of this discussion however it s ridiculous to assert as you apparently do that cocaine has no effect on the developing fetal nervous system caffiene and nicotine have fetal effects too why should cocaine be any exception a general economic principle of government is that whatever is subsidized you get more of and whatever is taxed you get less of to be most effective in confronting the nation s drug problem some way must be found to utilize these additional powers of government to make drug dealing and drug use less attractive so make the drugs legal tax them and use the tax money to fund a program to tell people how studid drugs are it has worked for the legal drugs if you had read my article before writing your knee jerk response you would have seen that this is exactly what i advocated while this country s current efforts to combat legal drugs have succeeded in some respects there is a greater awareness of the health consequences of smoking and designated driver programs have helped reduce drunk driving for example the same cannot be said for the war on illegal drugs there remains a core group of illegal drug users which support international networks of smugglers pushers growers processors kingpins and gangsters these networks and their marketing activities which include drive by shootings corrupting law enforcement authorities and smuggling weapons are directly or indirectly responsible for a large proportion of the crimes committed in our country every day each and every one of these problems is a direct result of the drug trade being illegal no shit sherlock clearly illegal drugs and rising crime are linked it takes only a moment s reflection to recognize how they are linked the link is money as with this country s failed effort to prohibit alcohol consumption a black market has been created in which greedy local monopolies like the gangsters of a bygone era have profited enormously from their illegal trade the victims of this trade include not only the innocent people unfortunate enough to be caught in the crossfire but i would argue the drug users themselves a great argument for making drugs legal thank you how could you have missed the point so utterly what have you been smoking here then is my proposal possession and use of all presently illegal drugs is decriminalized but buying and selling them remains illegal potheads can grow their own marijuana as many already do today other drug users can legally import their poison of choice as long as they pay the tariffs and a barter economy of drug experimenters develops your solution has done nothing to eliminate the violence in the drug trade btw how is someone going to import a drug if buying it is illegal i think you need to think your solution through a little more thouroughly obviously importers will not be buying drugs in the u s under u s jurisdiction use your remaining brain cells because of the barter economy which supplies the drug users the black market profits that have so enriched the drug lords dwindle if these drugs can be obtained for free or next to nothing why buy them nevertheless there will be those who will seek to sell these noncommercial drugs even at relatively low prices therefore you have failed to indicate how these drugs can be obtained for free or next to nothing you have stated that the sale of them is illegal o k i ll spell it out for you barter economy means that drug users will be permitted to grow or synthesize chemically anything they choose or to buy it outside the u s and bring it in if it won t grow here they will also be permitted to trade with other drug users for drugs other than the ones they themselves grow or manufacture they will not however be able to legally sell their drugs for money both manufacture and importation of noncommercial drugs will be taxed to discourage their use this is your brain on drugs any questions law enforcement activity is concentrated on those individuals who continue to buy and sell and also on the crimes committed by drug users too poor to afford even low prices but here is where the strategy begins to differentiate between the drug dealers the victimizers and the drug users their victims in most cities this is already the strategy it has already failed and is dragging the rest of us down with it pardon me but possession use of these drugs is still a crime you cannot analogize the rates at which drug users would seek treatment and the comparative ease with which it could be made available today when these drugs are illegal to possess use with what it would be were they not illegal to possess use decriminalizing possession and use makes treatment much easier drug dealers are exploiting the weaknesses of those persons who are prone to addiction and as such the drug users should be left alone not thrown in prison along with their victimizers drug dealers are the criminals and should be treated as such drug addiction does not absolve you of responsiblity for your criminal actions however upon arrest for any crime suspects are permitted to choose whether or not they will undergo a drug test those who choose to cooperate are informed that upon conviction for the crime they are accused of if they are found to be a drug user they will be institutionalized until they are clean and only then will they begin to serve their sentence if they choose to cooperate and are already drug free they can begin to serve their sentence right away those who choose not to undergo the drug test and are convicted face stiffer fines and serve longer sentences this sounds a hell of a lot like self incrimination which is unconstitutional if drug use is legal in your scheme why should the presence of drugs in anyones system influence the penalty they receive much too big brotherish for my tastes the drug test of an arrested suspect is voluntary not coerced and does not therefore constitute violation of amendment v those convicted who are drug users as evidenced by the test are in need of treatment for their problem institutionalization of these adddicted criminals is i would argue the best way to help them straighten out if they refuse the test and are convicted their sentence can be appropriately harsher since they unlike the addict have no excuse for their crimes institutionalization of drug using criminals serves several purposes drug using criminals and this includes drunk and or stoned drivers are separated from their sources of supply thus reducing the total number of drug users in society at large and consequently decreasing the demand for drugs on the street putting more of the remaining drug dealers out of business why should drug using criminals be treated any different from other criminals you have already stated that drug use is legal mark wilson atlantaga ncr com why not my objective is to discourage drug use and criminal behavior if fewer criminals do drugs out of fear of getting a harsher sentence if they are convicted why is that not a good thing if fewer drug dealers who are still criminals btw can find victims why is that not a good thing if fewer drug users such as drunks potheads etc commit crimes out of fear of being cut off from their sources of supply why is that not a good thing i m certainly willing to debate my position you have to read it carefully though standard disclaimer x dna ken barnes lifesci bldg conservative libertarians kebarnes memstvx memst edu for pro balance memphis tn compuserve com i find television very educating every time somebody turns on the set i go into the other room and read a book groucho marx
talk.politics.misc	re we re from the government and we re here to help you in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes in article apr infonode ingr com albeaj jima b d ingr com jim albea writes in article mar isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes steve proposes a system of checking what other nations are in to as criteria for what our government should try i counter that the limits of the constitution might be a better place to check gee jim if you ll check the constitution you ll find in order to promote the general welfare do ordain and establish this constitution i m surprised you missed it it s right there in the first paragraph i would have thought you would have made it at least through the preamble you almost got it right and it was a good try but you should follow your own advice the preamble to the constitution does read as you have quoted but let us not forget that after all it is only the preamble it is not a binding part of the constitution and carries no weight in the law that poor tortured paragraph has got to be one of the most unfortunate passages in the english language witness the legions of blowhards like yourself who think those vague flowery phrases are part of the law of the land do you really believe that a politician only has to give lip service to promoting the general welfare to be within the limits of the constitution sorry buddy but some other blowhards managed to include the general welfare in another portion of the constitution article i section the congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the united states i guess they wanted to make sure everyone understood they meant what they said in the preamble just to make sure you ve got the point let s do a little experiment what if the constitution read as follows preamble we the people to promote the general welfare do ordain and establish this constitution for the united states of america constitution the federal government shall have one function and one function only to provide for the defense of the nation the government would not then have two functions defense and welfare but since it explicitly includes both the general welfare and defense in article i section i guess you ll grant that botha are constitutional functions right steve i m glad to see that you abandoned the preamble thing what did you do a word search to find welfare somewhere else in the constitution my comments and paraphrases in brackets article i section in some ways the guts of the constitution the congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes duties imposts and excises to pay the debts indebtedness as defined in the document and provide for the common defence defence as precisely defined and general welfare as defined through the document mostly in ways that limit the government of the united states but the above taxes shall be uniform through out the u s so far the congress has been given the power to collect taxes uniformly then to borrow money to regulate commerce with foreign nations interstate and indian tribes to do uniform naturalization and bankruptcies to coin money regulate the value thereof and etc to punish counterfeiters to establish post offices and post roads to provide patents and copyrights to constitute tribunals inferior to the supreme court to define and punish piracies and etc to declare war and etc to raise and support armies but for no longer than two years at a stretch to provide and maintain a navy notice no time limit on this one to make the rules for the army and navy to provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws etc to provide for training of the army except for some state stuff to exercise exclusive legislation in d c to make all laws necessary to execute the foregoing powers your original instinct was right looking to other nations for precedents that support an expansive liberal agenda is much easier than looking to the slim pickins found in the constitution jim albea jwalbea jima b d ingr com
talk.politics.misc	clinton am press briefing by dee dee myers the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april press briefing by dee dee myers the briefing room a m edt ms myers okay today s schedule as you know the president jogged this morning with senator wofford at p m he will have a photo opportunity in the rose garden to present the teacher of the year award at p m he will meet with his principal advisors on bosnia and at p m he ll meet with president vaclav havel there will be a photo op at the top of that meeting no formal press conference afterwards any questions q is he moving towards some major decision this week on bosnia ms myers as we ve said he s continuing to discuss his options he s been talking extensively with his foreign policy advisors his bosnia advisors as well as with other world leaders he ll try to contact president mitterrand again today and he ll continue to discuss it we don t have any specific timetable but obviously the situation there is very serious q has he called janet reno today or yesterday ms myers i don t believe he s spoken to her today q why does he have nothing to say about this publicly except on the piece of paper that was put out last night at p m ms myers he did he answered a question about it yesterday q before anything had happened ms myers before anything happened he put out q since something has happened he s had nothing to say ms myers he s put out a statement on it last night and we ll have more to say about it later today q in what forum is that going to be ms myers it will be at the photo in the rose garden q he will talk about waco at that ms myers yes he ll have something to say q is that something we can take live ms myers i think it will be brief we can talk a little later about the exact structure as we work it out but i don t know if it s something you d want to take live q will he take questions on waco at that time as well ms myers he ll probably take a few q is there any reason why he hasn t talked to the attorney general ms myers i ll have to double check i don t know that he hasn t talked to her this morning q and she didn t come here this morning to see him or anyone else ms myers no q and he didn t talk yesterday q what s the reaction to her resignation statement that she made last night ms myers she was asked a question about it and she answered the question the president has absolutely no intention of asking for the attorney general s resignation he stands behind her percent as you know he was informed about the decision he takes full responsibility for that and stands percent behind attorney general reno q the question now arises yesterday we were told that he was briefed on this but we never got a firm idea of how much he knew of what the plan was and the justification for the plan and the justification of the timing was he fully informed on all of that all of this about the increasing levels of violence inside the compound that made them want to go now the feeling that nothing else was going to succeed et cetera ms myers he talked with the attorney general about the decision about she talked to him about the factors that led to her decision he raised no objections he supports her decision to go forward with it he was fully briefed q of course hindsight is but looking back now does the president does the white house feel that the decision he signed off on proved to be the right way to go when you look at what actually happened ms myers i think everybody feels bad when life is lost but i don t think that that is reason to second guess the decision he stands behind the decision that was made he was informed about it he was fully briefed about it and he stands percent behind the attorney general the justice department and the fbi it s a difficult operation and there s it had already gone on for more than seven weeks four federal agents had lost their lives in the line of duty let s not forget that this was a very difficult situation and all the decisions involved were very difficult but all the agents on the ground the fbi the justice department all recommended moving forward with this they thought given the circumstances it was the best possible course of action there s just no point in second guessing those decisions now i think that there s a reason q why not they have to ms myers no not to second guess the decisions i think it s important to take a look at it to have an investigation i think the president will talk some about that later today but at this from this vantage point to second guess those decisions it s not useful q you sound like he s going to order an investigation of what happened and whether ms myers i think he ll have more to say about that later yes q he will order an investigation ms myers he ll have more yes he ll have more to say about an investigation q what kind of investigation ms myers he ll have more to say about it later q but in the monday morning quarterbacking surely there is some soul searching now as to whether it was the right decision you can t say that we did the best we could when it turned out to be a rather a debacle ms myers i think we ll obviously we ll review the situation and all the factors that lead to a very tragic outcome i don t think anybody disputes that the outcome was tragic but again the president stands behind the decisions that were made and we ll take a look at the factors that contributed to that q what was the fbi director s role in this ms myers well he was obviously involved in setting up the operation he signed off on it as did the agents that were on the ground that were working with him i don t believe he spoke to the president but i ll double check that q but he was very closely involved in every aspect of planning and so forth ms myers i would refer you to the fbi on exactly what aspects he was involved with q will janet reno be coming over to the white house today ms myers there s no planned meeting i don t believe that she ll be here q she won t be at this event at p m ms myers no no plans to be q do you think that there s going to be a jumping on on the part of political opposition to make something out of this in terms of to the president s detriment politically ms myers well i would certainly hope that people wouldn t try to use this tragedy for political reasons obviously i think again that it s useful to look at the facts to reevaluate the facts and i think the president will move forward with that but i think people understand that this was a difficult series of decisions that it was a very difficult situation that it was caused by a man who was a cult leader who was involved in the death of four federal agents and i think it s most tragic that a lot of innocent children lost their lives in this i don t think anybody disputes the tragedy of the outcome q dee dee what was the white house role in handling the i guess public relations aspect in the aftermath who was talking who here at the white house was talking with people at justice to set up reno s news conference to do all that sort of thing ms myers i think the attorney general handled her end of the situation herself and made the decision to go ahead with the news conference once there was a point at which there was enough information i think to talk with some accuracy about what had transpired during the day obviously people here at a number of levels were keeping in touch with people at the justice department and at the fbi to try to keep informed about what was happening there q but reno said that she didn t talk to the president and there seemed to be an indication she hadn t talked to anybody at the white house so who ms myers there were people talking on a staff to staff level q i understand but who at the justice department was handling that for reno who was talking to the white house ms myers there were a number of people as you know webb hubbell is the liaison to the white house and i know he talked to a number of people here there were a number of people at a number of different levels involved i don t want to get into exactly who had what conversations with whom but there were a number of conversations obviously the justice department was working to keep the white house informed the press informed to the best of its ability as events unfolded throughout the day q did webb hubbell talk to the president ms myers i don t believe so i don t know if he talked he may have at one point q and was the white house role just to seek information about what happened or was it to direct the public information campaign that followed ms myers it was both to keep abreast of the situation so the president could be on top of it but i think the justice department managed its press relations on it we were obviously very interested in what was happening there throughout the day and the president was following it very closely throughout the day q dee dee on that though if the president was following it so closely and he had talked the night before with janet reno why wouldn t he talk to her at all since then ms myers again i don t know if he s talked to her this morning again he s kept fully aware of what has been going on throughout the day he stands percent behind her decisions he s been fully supportive of her as he said yesterday morning before events transpired and yesterday afternoon in a written statement q but wouldn t he want to convey those thoughts to her personally yesterday ms myers one more time i don t know if they ve spoken this morning q no yesterday q clearly there s a perception that she was left hung out to dry all day yesterday ms myers that s just not true i think we said throughout the day that the president takes full responsibility that he stands i don t know how much clearer we can be the president stands foursquare behind the attorney general on this he accepts full responsibility for the events that transpired he believes that janet reno the justice department and the fbi acted as best they could given the circumstances and the facts that were evident at the time i don t know what else he can say to show that he supports her percent q one of the best indications of that is to pick up the phone and tell her ms myers again i don t know whether they ve spoken this morning q why can t we find out ms myers well we can i can t do it standing here right now q you ve got six people here all they ve got to do is pick up the phone ms myers helen we ll get back to you q dee dee when the president spoke with the attorney general on sunday is it safe to assume that either she volunteered or he inquired about whether there was a possible downside to increasing pressure on the davidians ms myers i think that they discussed the situation again i m not going to get into the specific details of what exactly she told him but i think that he was aware of the risks involved q dee dee the president yesterday morning said it was entirely her decision she then said that she told him what was happening and he said okay does the president regard it that he gave the go ahead or that she gave the go ahead ms myers i think what they both said yesterday was that she made a decision based on all the available facts she informed him about that and he raised no objections again i don t know how much clearer we can be about that q and he said okay the issue is over the responsibility ms myers he said okay q does okay mean ms myers the president accepts ultimate responsibility q dee dee the president s investigation that he s going to announce would that be conducted by someone outside the administration ms myers no q it would be internal is it meant to preclude any congressional investigation ms myers no it s meant simply to follow up on the incidents that occurred yesterday q and you would i assume therefore cooperate fully with any congressional hearings that would be held ms myers to the best of our ability q dee dee there are two reports out this morning one that the justice department or fbi or whomever apparently had a bug planted inside the complex and the other is that the children may have been injected with some kind of poison that may have either left them unconscious or maybe even killed them before the fire what do you know about those two ms myers nothing more than i ve seen in news accounts this morning we may get more on it later but at this point i know i m not sure anybody knows any more than what was reported by people who came out of the compound q has the president received any report today in terms of fatalities and actually what was going on what they ve been able to find out on in the compound now ms myers he s been briefed i don t think that they ve gotten into the compound yet they were still waiting for it to cool off i don t think there s much beyond what s been reported in the news accounts but he has been kept up to date on it q dee dee the president stands behind attorney general reno but does he feel that she perhaps got bad advice from the so called experts ms myers he believes that she made he stands behind the decision that she made it was the unanimous decision of her advisors of the fbi of the agents on the ground and he supports that q what about the validity of the decisions made on the ground does he back those ms myers he s not going to second guess decisions made q dee dee you just said he stands behind the decision which she made normally in a situation like this the president says i made the decision but you re saying she made the decision ms myers i m saying that the president was briefed about the decision he okayed it and he accepts full responsibility for it q but then why do you keep using the terminology the decision that she made rather than the decision that he made ms myers because as he said yesterday she evaluated the facts based on evidence presented to her by justice department and fbi which is part of the justice department and made a decision and then briefed the president on that decision that is how the chain of command works she briefed him he signed off on it the operation went forward and the president accepts full responsibility q in that chain of command analogy there i want to go back to sessions a moment do you know if this was a plan that came through him to reno or was it presented to her around him or with his involvement what was his involvement ms myers again you d have to go to the justice department for the specific interaction between the attorney general and the director q does the president stand behind director sessions ms myers he supports again i don t know how many different ways i can say this he supports the decisions made by the justice department and the fbi he fully supports the attorney general in this i m not stepping away from the director of the fbi i want to but janet reno is the one who briefed him the one who made the decisions as the head of the justice department as you know the director of the fbi reports to the attorney general the attorney general made the decision she informed the president about those decisions he okayed it he didn t raise any objections to it and he accepts full responsibility q do you have based on what you know here at the white house any concerns about william sessions performance during this ms myers nothing to suggest that no q along those same lines just in your initial review of the situation how much do you think the problems might have come from not having a justice department that s fully staffed and having an fbi director who is still quite uncertain about his status ms myers i just don t think that had anything to do with it i think the agents on the ground the operation went forward i m not going to speculate on that q did the white house express any alarm that janet reno chose to speak to the live network media before she chose to speak to clinton ms myers no she was carrying forward her responsibility to inform the public about the events of yesterday i think she did a very admirable job the president agrees with that q before sunday how often was the president briefed on the situation in waco ms myers he was kept updated on a regular basis on a daily basis q who briefed the president ms myers well i m not going to get into exactly who what conversations he had with whom but he was kept up to date on the events in waco he has daily briefings on a number of issues q no no was this a regular briefing conducted by a white house staff person or was it by a justice department person ms myers he s briefed regularly by a white house staff on a number of issues again i m not going to get into exactly who briefs him on what subjects q another subject q on another subject q now we re going to do gays in the military laughter ms myers i welcome it q how close are you to signing the biodiversity treaty ms myers as you know the president s giving a speech on earth day tomorrow we ll have more to say about it then q any details on where or when that speech is yet ms myers it s at a m and i don t know where yet q dee dee is this a major policy address how would you characterize the speech tomorrow ms myers i would characterize it as a earth day speech i wouldn t look for any major departures from his past positions on these things but again i don t want to get too much into what he s going to talk about tomorrow q on or off campus q is this at a location outside the white house ms myers it will be somewhere in washington we don t know exactly where yet q dee dee what foreign leaders has the president talked to since friday on the situation in bosnia ms myers only prime minister major and again he ll try to reach president mitterrand again this morning q david owen said yesterday and joe biden said today both of them agree that the peace process is not going to work that the serbs are not going to sign on does the administration still believe that it can work and that they will sign on ms myers obviously the ultimate goal is some sort of peaceful resolution to the conflict in bosnia as you know the administration is considering a wide variety of options at this point the situation there in and around srebrenica and the rest of eastern bosnia is quite serious and the president will meet with his bosnian advisors today and continue to press forward on this q is that a question they re going to try to be deciding whether or not the peace plan remains viable ms myers again they ll be reviewing a number of options including the peace plan q does the group that he s meeting with today include reg bartholomew ms myers i don t believe he s here but it will be among the usual secretary christopher secretary aspin general powell q dee dee do you have anything on the apparent encounter by u s f s over bosnia today some aircraft violating the no fly zone ms myers no i don t i ll get back to you on that q will the president be meeting with every one of the leaders coming to town for the holocaust museum ms myers he will he ll be meeting as you know with vaclav havel today and with lech walesa tomorrow and then with the rest of the group tomorrow afternoon q as a group or one by one ms myers i believe it s as a group now havel and walesa asked for meetings early and these have been on the agenda for quite some time but he will meet with all of the foreign heads of state that are here q dee dee has the president decided whether he supports the gay and lesbian civil rights act and has anything been worked out for him to address the march on sunday ms myers i think he ll probably have a letter or some kind of a statement to the march we haven t worked out the exact details of that q not a live phone hook up ms myers probably not given the logistics of getting to boston the speech as you know is at p m the answer to the other part of your question is no he hasn t taken a position on it q you said that speech in boston was at p m ms myers i believe so yes q do you know what it s on ms myers we ll still working out q general vessey s coming back tonight from vietnam when will he be meeting with the president ms myers no specific meeting is scheduled we ll talk to him at some point and see we look forward to his report but exactly how he ll make that report is unclear q so he s not going to come immediately to the white house ms myers no q the aids czar how close are you ms myers still working on it q drug czar q do you expect it before the march ms myers i don t have a time line on it q did the president ask senator mitchell to try the lloyd cutler ploy to break the filibuster ms myers i don t believe so q why not ms myers he s just not going to q are senate democrats here at this hour ms myers no that s tomorrow tomorrow at a m q update on the stimulus possible scaling down ms myers as you know the senate will vote on amendments today we ll continue to talk the president is committed to some kind of a jobs package we d like to see it passed and we ll continue in conversations throughout the day and see where we end up q when this briefing is over can you give us word through the speaker or whatever whether the president s talked to janet reno ms myers we ll be happy to q it s become a pressing question for the last several hours ms myers no just this minute that i ve been here and i haven t had a chance to follow up on it helen q does he have an opinion on hatfield ms myers i mean obviously he prefers he offered a compromise package of billion he believes that that s the best alternative believes that he s obviously willing to take a second look at the package and i think the senate will vote on that today and we re hopeful that the president s bill which will be the mitchell amendment will be the one that will be approved q dee dee is there any white house official that will be at the march on sunday ms myers somebody will be there representing the president i don t know who yet q well has it been decided how he s going to address is it going to be a videotape or a phone call ms myers i think it will probably be a letter but there hasn t been a final decision on that yet q the official will read the letter is that what it sounds like ms myers correct q lloyd bentsen came in here this morning do you know what was that about was that about this waco thing ms myers no actually it wasn t it may have come up but it was about economic issues q on health care is the th of may still the target ms myers that s still the target q and there s talk about a joint session of congress speech at the end of may ms myers we haven t resolved exactly how the president will present the health care plan to the people i wouldn t rule that out as an option but no decisions have been made end a m edt
talk.politics.misc	does perot pay in income taxes i am seeking any press references to how much tax perot pays in income taxes i ve heard the figure of percent since he gets most of his his income from federal and municipal bond interest anybody read a reliable report somewhere thanks
talk.politics.misc	re dangerous ideological position there in c q kx c h wetware com drieux wetware com drieux just drieux writes in article cbnews cb att com lvc cbnews cb att com larry cipriani writes lessons from tiananmen square by neal knox reprinted from guns ammo september why the second amendment is so important even in todays more progressive era included is a description of the bonus march in washington dc in which gen douglas macarthur opposed with military force unemployed wwi veterans lobbying for the government to immediately pay their promised veteran s bonus larry now you can t seriously suggest that the us government would be affraid of a bunch of vets and would up and call out the military to protect them just because the us government up and decided to forget a generation of veterans now what was that some liberal was saying about the advantages of a conscripted armed forces which we need not actually pay for services render you should be aware that the us army was called to fight and did ww i veterans bonus marchers who marched on dc demanding bonuses they were promised for service becaues of the depression they wanted them early john burton jburton acenet auburn edu my opinions not my employer s
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage alan morgan alanm efi com wrote in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes you might except that gay men are much more promiscuous than straight men which shows how damaged and screwed up gay men are okay claytoon let us say that hypothetically i agree with you that gay men are much more promiscuous than straight men why does this indicate they are screwed up people btw it occurs to me that since in my experience men are much more interested in sex than women and want to have sex much earlier in a relationship than women do that homosexuals would have sex more often simply becuase their partner is of a like mind i e heterosexual men would be more promiscuous if they could it s my observation that women are more likely to me more strongly indoctronated into now wanting sex that are men also there are definite double standards for men and women who are promiscuous could there also be a factor of communication being more direct in homosexual relationships and culture mark evans evansmp uhura aston ac uk home evansmp cs aston ac uk x office
talk.politics.misc	re employment was re why not concentrate on child molesters in article apr galileo cc rochester edu as b uhura cc rochester edu tree of schnopia writes wow i hadn t realized how venomous this was getting be careful here the problem isn t the rich but the values and the systems that make the rich rich but the values and systems that make the rich rich all basically amount to freedom of choice in new england in the entire economy was based on the small family farm farm economy households were economically diversified producing not only agricultural goods but also manufactured goods especially cloth many farm women carded spun and or wove producing not only cloth for their own family but also to sell generating extra income but about this time the industrial revolution was underway in england and by the s it had moved to the us in both cases in the form of textile mills these mills could produce cloth far more efficiently and cheaply than people at home the result was that an important source of home income was wiped out and many of these women were compelled by economic circumstance to go to work in these same mills in lowell mass or nashua nh where they worked hour weeks in deafening dangerous conditions living regimented lives and being exposed to cotton dust and infectious dis eases due to the work now people didn t have to buy the cheaper factory made cloth they were free to keep buying the home made variety and support their local economy things are designed in such a way that in order to go with the system and make money everything else we care about goes to shit but sorry for the cliche it takes two to tango the big rich corporations achieved that wealth because we buy their stuff it used to be the case that the business center of a town was also its social center you knew the merchants you did business with or even local kids working behind the counter you would see people on the street whom you knew and you could stop for a chat nowadays local merchants are going out of business and people shop at huge anonymous malls serving regional populations of hundreds of thousands or millions you have no particular relationship with the companies you do business with and feel no particular commitment to them nor they to you major components of what defines a com munity have been destroyed on the other hand the products we buy at these malls are a lot cheaper due to economies of scale and foreign manufacture and they are probably of better or at least more consistent quality i have to constantly remind myself that the goal of human society is not to make money money doesn t make us happy it just prevents certain things making us more unhappy therefore don t shoot the rich shoot the conservatives don t blame the conservatives for this everyone makes their own individual choice and the liberals and the fence sitters are just as guilty of pretending there are no social and cultural consequences to economic choices peter
talk.politics.misc	re waco burnout in apr rigel tamu edu mst rigel tamu edu mitchell s todd writes in article visser convex convex com visser convex com lance visser writes i can t wait for the investigation considering that everyone is dead now and the place is burnt to the ground i guess honest citizens will just have to take the word of the atf about how much of a threat these people were just look at the history of koresh and his folowers they captured the mount carmel complex a few yearss ago in a gun battle with a rival bd sect leaving more than one person dead they weren t exactly the most peace loving bunch i wonder where you have been getting your mis information from straight from the batf itself koresh and his followers did not capture the compound a few years ago it has always been theirs a few years ago their was an argument over who should lead the group a gunfight erupted one person died koresh was charged with the murder when the sheriff came to arrest him the sheriff knocked on the dorr and showed koresh the warrant a tactic that the batf might try learning koresh and the others charged peacibly surrendered to the sherrif a trial ensued the others were found innocent and the jury hung on koresh s charge mob rule isn t any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain t charity if you are using someone else s money wilson s theory of relativity if you go back far enough we re all related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
talk.politics.misc	re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate chris holt newcastle ac uk chris holt writes it s quite possible that a buyer and seller will both trust some third party more than either trust the other and will desire the moderation of that third party but if a random third party assumes the right to interfere in a transaction contarary to the wishes of the primary participants odds are pretty good the results will be detrimental so we try to ensure that the process of deciding whether to introduce third parties isn t random as steve said above there are examples where third parties are less ignorant or corrupt than the two primary parties should this knowledge not be able to help a third party should be able to use persuasion to sway the transaction if on the other hand we condone the use of force or threat of violence by the third party then we are in trouble a fourth party could say that it knows better than parties and and a fifth party and so on who wins the one that can use the force or threat of force the best in other words might makes right let s abandon such aggressive tactics and work from voluntary cooperation and respect from others that is what libertarians want paul schmidt advocates for self government davy crockett chapter president judith drive johnson city tn uunet tijc pjs freedom seems to have unleashed the creative energies of the people and leads to ever higher levels of income and social progress u n report
talk.politics.misc	clinton president s remarks in photo op with vaclav havel the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april remarks by the president in photo opportunity with vaclav havel the oval office p m edt q mr president president havel is here for the holocaust museum opening and you toured the museum last night all this focus on the holocaust how does that weigh on your decision making process as far as bosnia is concerned the president well i think the holocaust is the most extreme example the world has ever known of ethnic cleansing and i think that even in its more limited manifestations it s an idea that should be opposed you couldn t help thinking about that that s not to compare the two examples they re not identical everyone knows that but i think that the united states should always seek an opportunity to stand up against at least to speak out against inhumanity q sir how close are you to a decision on more sanctions on bosnia the president well of course we ve got the u n vote ambassador albright was instrumental in the u n vote to strengthen the sanctions and they are quite tough and we now are putting our heads at the business of implementing them and looking at what other options we ought to consider and i don t have anything else to say except to tell you that i spent quite a bit of time on it and will continue to over the next several days q following your meeting today sir are you any closer to some sort of u s military presence there the president i have not made any decisions q president clinton why have you decided to meet with mr havel the president well i m just honored that he would come and see me i m glad he s here in the united states for the dedication of the holocaust museum he is a figure widely admired in our country and around the world and a very important person in europe and a very important person to the united states so i m hoping that we ll have a chance to talk about the new czech republic and what kinds of things we can do together to support the causes we believe in end p m edt
talk.politics.misc	re janet reno killed the waco children in a previous article tzs stein u washington edu tim smith says an cleveland freenet edu broward horne writes aside from the fact that i disagree w you she did offer to resign and the president rejected the offer she was willing to take responsibility and the president has the balls enough to stand by a decision or the contempt to ignore it yup that was quite contemptuous of the president to make a decision that disagree with your ignorance is showing the batf warrant was unsealed the entire operation was illegal from day one and clinton and reno supported it people are dead
talk.politics.misc	re waco burnout in a previous article mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com mark wilson says in apr rigel tamu edu mst rigel tamu edu mitchell s todd writes in article visser convex convex com visser convex com lance visser writes i can t wait for the investigation considering that everyone is dead now and the place is burnt to the ground i guess honest citizens will just have to take the word of the atf about how much of a threat these people were the batf warrant was unsealed yesterday the entire operation was illegal from day one no authority for a no knock raid no authority to use the texas helicopters no authority to search for a drug lab more atf lies clinton and reno are lying fucks
talk.politics.misc	waco i don t want to attack anyone s personal opinions and thus have not included any articles but it seems to me incredibly ridiculous and pompous for someone to sit back with the benefit of hindsight and point fingers at clinton reno the fbi or whomever first of all it is a knee jerk judgement the facts are quite muddled at this point and will likely be for quite a while secondly things do not improve by pointing blame and accusatory fingers pointing fingers is a destructive action if everyone sat around pointing fingers all the time nothing would get done and nothing would ever get any better and despite the tragedy we can learn something from this if it is approached in a constructive manner doesn t it seem that working together is more productive than working against one another thirdly it seems incredibly hypocritical to place blame given the benefit of hindsight something that those who made the decisions did not have the benefit of why not give them the courtesy of acknowledging that they did the best they could with the data they had in a very very difficult situation some responses have gone so far to suggest that the actions were done without regard for the lives of the people in the compound give me a break be part of the solution not the problem and that s my opinion david
talk.politics.misc	re clinton healthcare professionals to review healthcare reform options in article r cftinnrbt life ai mit edu clinton hq campaign org the white house writes the white house office of communications for immediate release contact bob boorstin thursday april phone health professionals to review clinton proposal as it develops too many mds on the list and not enough rns in my opinion doug doug fierro uts system software o case tools development fierro uts amdahl com
talk.politics.misc	re who s next mormons and jews in article r prg hpq agate berkeley edu isaackuo spam berkeley edu isaac kuo writes in article apr a cs okstate edu kennejs a cs okstate edu kennedy james scot writes you are speculating that the fbi purposely started the fire please if you ve got such a ridiculously extraordinary claim and have no evidence whatsoever at least give us a speculatory reason why the fbi would want to do such a thing the possibility that the fire was started accidentally is much more reasonable but we don t have anything but contradictory anecdotal evidence right now isaac kuo isaackuo math berkeley edu mr kuo i don t recall seeing your byline around much before at least on t p m let me clue you in on this newsgroup t p m is populated largely by people whose hatred for the u s government especially the government of mr clinton is literally boundless to these people the suggestion that agents of the u s government would carry out a spectacular massacre of its own citizens in full view of tv cameras is not an extraordinary claim it s just another day in the life of these united states they don t have to suggest any reason why the fbi would want to publicly massacre citizens have you seen the crying game it s in their nature don pajerek standard disclaimers apply
talk.politics.misc	re median re new study out on gay percentage in article qvb ainnmoi darkstar ucsc edu stephen orchid ucsc edu writes from the santa rosa cal press democrat april p b male sex survey gay activity low note this contradictory title gay activity low vocabulary test please define the following words a contradictory b ambiguous the views expressed herein are theodore a kaldis my own only do you seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe that a major university rutgers remus rutgers edu kaldis as this would hold such views
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes elf sternberg but if less than of the population is gay what can we say about these people who don t identify as gay but have demonstrated gay potential obviously a large chunk of these people chose or more accurately were forced to choose by force of religion and social sanction to put those feelings aside to be heterosexual obviously cramer and kaldis fall into this category i can t speak for kaldis but force of religion and social sanction played no part in my sexual preferences neither had much influence on me as a teenager you might as well have you certainly would not have been in error if you would have the views expressed herein are theodore a kaldis my own only do you seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe that a major university rutgers remus rutgers edu kaldis as this would hold such views
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article apr maths tcd ie pmoloney maths tcd ie paul moloney writes theodore a kaldis join the pythagorean reform church repent of your evil irrational numbers and bean eating ways accept into your heart call the pythagorean reform church bbs at the above smacks of antihispanic bigotry you smack of idiocy t d i don t suppose you ve heard of pythagoras before i have indeed heard of pythagoras but i don t know that he was ever disparaged as a bean eater in the american southwest and west e g texas california colorado the term bean eater is sometimes used as a slur against those of hispanic heritage generally mexicans in those parts much like how the irish in the northeast are perceived by some as voracious beer guzzlers the views expressed herein are theodore a kaldis my own only do you seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe that a major university rutgers remus rutgers edu kaldis as this would hold such views
talk.politics.misc	re janet reno killed the waco children in article apr ncsu edu dsh eceyv ncsu edu doug holtsinger writes the situation in waco was similar to a hostage situation with a madman holding a gun against the head of an innocent person in such a situation a person who provokes the madman and causes him to pull the gun s trigger is responsible for the death of the hostage janet reno blindly stumbled in there and basically threw a tear gas container at the madman hoping that he would release the hostage it s no surprise that the madman would pull the trigger in response to that kind of provocation just out of curiosity what else was there to do in this situation wait another days weeks months years was there anything indicating that these children and the other people were going to get out alive tom munoz thought for the day one million microfiche one fish munoz sweetpea jsc nasa gov
talk.politics.misc	clinton am press briefing by dee dee myers the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april press briefing by dee dee myers the briefing room a m edt ms myers at p m we re having a press conference bill in the east room and then saturday the president will leave here at roughly a m and fly down to jamestown he will spend the day there overnight at camp david on sunday it s unclear exactly what time he ll leave camp david and fly to boston he ll leave from hagerstown the press plane will leave from washington he will meet with some q what kind of a plane is that he s taking ms myers that he s taking he ll probably take a c q from hagerstown ms myers from hagerstown air force one doesn t fly out of hagerstown apparently q how will the pool travel ms myers the pool will have to meet him ahead of time so i guess the pool will travel with the press plane and wait for him at the airport there is currently no provision and i ll double check because there s currently no provision i think that s standard operating practice q the pool is not going to meet him and watch him get on the plane at hagerstown ms myers i don t believe so q what time does he have to be in boston ms myers he s going to meet there with a group of citizens mostly people who supported us during the campaign at around p m we re still working out the final times q at the airport ms myers no it will be at the boston harbor hotel and then he will also meet with some a youth group that authored something called project the speech to the publishers is actually at p m it will be followed by q a and then after the speech and q a he ll attend a reception with the publishers and then return to washington from boston and that s it for the weekend q has the president seen the report from or the letter communication from the foreign service officers also obviously the communication from madeleine albright and what is his reaction to their call on him ms myers well obviously the letter was written to secretary christopher i believe secretary christopher received the letter on saturday he reviewed it and met with the authors on monday to discuss their views he believes it s an important part of the policy making process and is taking their views into account as we go forward in the development of the bosnia policy q what is the president s reaction ms myers the president hasn t seen the letter it was something that was directed towards secretary christopher in terms of he hasn t seen specifically the letter but in terms of their concerns generally what the president has said is that there are a lot of options on the table now including ones that weren t there before and i think he s as is everybody gravely concerned about the situation in bosnia q is he influenced by that i mean how does he feel about the fact that all of the specialists in that area those desk officers ms myers many of the specialists in that area i think that that is clearly part of the process it s something their views will clearly be considered i think secretary christopher met with the group immediately to discuss their views i think he believes that there ought to be room for opinions and that those opinions ought to be considered particularly from people who work closely on the issues q what do you mean there are options on the table that weren t there before ms myers i think the president said last week that there were options such as lifting the arms embargo to the bosnian muslims that had been previously off the table that are now being considered q dee dee in terms of those options madeleine albright is saying that potentially there could be unilateral action by the u s if the europeans did not go along is that on the table ms myers well i can t discuss anything that would any conversations that would have happened between ambassador albright and the president but i think the president has said he would certainly is working with our european allies he s had a number of conversations with european leaders and is trying to build some consensus there q will he reach a decision will he have anything specific to say today ms myers no i mean in term of there will be no new announcement of policy today q does your statement mean he has ruled out unilateral action ms myers he s continuing to consult with our allies at this point he has said i think he s been fairly clear about it that the he believes that the u s needs to act in concert with its allies on this q on that point does he believe that the u s though does have built in authority from the united nations already to take unilateral action ms myers well i think the u n resolution makes it clear that you can act unilaterally in support of any humanitarian relief effort i think the broader point is that anything we do any options that we decide to pursue we will make sure that it is consistent with u n authority and if it s not we ll work with our allies to make sure that we get it q dee dee then how does the white house someone as distinguished as elie wiesel who says that not enough is being done to stop the atrocities going on in bosnia ms myers i think that that s why we re considering additional options i think that mr wiesel s comments yesterday were quite compelling the situation in bosnia is tragic the president is very concerned about it he has i think president clinton has worked very hard to take further actions to continue to isolate serbia in the world community clearly we re considering other options because the president is concerned that perhaps it s not enough q in terms of what you were just talking about it sounds like resolution justifies unilateral action by the u s to protect humanitarian ms myers i don t think it i wouldn t use the word justify it permits unilateral action by any country in protecting the delivery of humanitarian relief but i think that s just an explanation of the resolution i think any action that we take will be consistent with u n resolutions or we ll work with our allies to make sure that it is permissible or we ll get further action q the president and other officials have ruled out unilateral u s action in bosnia in the past you re declining to do that this morning ms myers no i said the president has said repeatedly that he wants to act in concert with our allies on this q that doesn t mean that he won t act alone which has been said before explicitly ms myers i don t mean to imply a change in policy the president has said all along that he wants to act in concert with our allies on this q one other little question did he know about this letter from the foreign service officers before it hit the papers ms myers i don t believe so secretary christopher they may have had a private conversation about it the president has not seen it q they met on monday right christopher met surely he must have brought that up ms myers again they may have talked privately about it but q dee dee what you re saying is that the albright recommendation has been rejected is that correct ms myers no i didn t say that at all i said i won t i said i wouldn t comment on any conversations or communications q she s advocating unilateral action and you re saying in effect that we will not take unilateral action ms myers i am not confirming anything that madeleine albright may or may not have recommended q given the sometimes delicate complicated and frustrating nature of negotiations with the allies on this issue does the president find this kind of letter from foreign service officers of the state department helpful to that process hurtful to that ms myers i think that their views are obviously being considered the secretary received that memo on saturday and two days later he met with them in order to have a more thorough airing of their views of the basis for their views to discuss in greater detail the options that they had presented in the letter q doesn t it put some kind of pressure on additional pressure on him now from within his own administration to act regardless of what the allies may or may not do ms myers i think clearly there s a broad policy review underway now and the president and his advisors are considering a number of options including some of those outlined in the letter from the folks over at the state department now no decisions have been made on that yet but i think that there is a through review underway and that their opinions are being very seriously considered q if i can just follow up i guess what i m looking for is what was his reaction to this letter did he say good this bolsters my position or did he say damn this is just what i don t need right now ms myers i think he said this helps contribute substantively to the debate it s important that all views be considered and aired thoroughly that before he makes a decision he wants to have the best possible advice and information possible and this i think in many ways furthers that goal q so internal advice to a cabinet official or the president it s all open now and you wouldn t take any umbrage or say that they were out of line ms myers i think that the fact that secretary christopher met with them to discuss their views and make sure they had an opportunity to have a more complete conversation about it is conclusive evidence that their views are welcome q does the policy review include what madeleine albright has suggested and what joe biden and others have suggested which is that the previous u n resolutions authorize unilateral action military action for the delivery of humanitarian ms myers i think all options are on the table q the unilateral option is on the table ms myers i think all options are on the table q we ve had two different q isn t that a change dee dee q that would be a change of policy q particularly if it includes ground troops which has been specifically ruled out ms myers i think the president has been well no i don t that is not q are you talking about all options ms myers all options i think the president has been fairly clear about that so let me just review again what he has said he has said that the president has said all options are on the table with the exception of the introduction of ground troops which he has never suggested he has ruled that out from the beginning q hasn t he ruled out unilateral action of any sort ms myers he has said that he doesn t believe the u s can solve the problems in the former yugoslavia by itself i think that there are a number of very complicated options on the table right now i don t think that again i don t want to comment on specific options that are being considered other than in the broad categories that we ve already said things like lifting the arms embargo against the bosnian muslims things that i think we ve talked about in broad terms this is a very complicated situation the options being presented and considered are very complicated q air strikes on the table ms myers again i think that s been fairly clearly pointed out that that s something that s being discussed q dee dee are ground troops on the ms myers no ground troops are not being considered q you said there was not going to be you said you were not announcing a change of policy then you said everything is on the table we re confused are unilateral actions on the table ms myers all i can tell you is what the president has said that he doesn t believe that he wants to act in concert with the allies on this q wants to but he s willing to i mean if they don t go along ms myers he s continuing to consult with our allies on this he s continuing to have discussions he s continuing to press them for further action and i think that s clear the conversation is ongoing we re going to continue to work with them to find the best possible solution and next step on this q dee dee the allies have taken the position that to conduct any kind of air strikes in bosnia would have the opposite effect of ensuring the delivery of humanitarian aid that they feel that their troops on the ground monitoring the delivery of that aid would become vulnerable and the bosnians ms myers i m not sure that s the consistent i mean i m not sure who you re referring to q the british and the french q yes the british and french they ve taken the position that the delivery of humanitarian aid would be jeopardized by any kind of air strikes against the bosnian military does the u s believe differently from that ms myers the president has had conversations with both mitterrand and major as you know i think that there is a thorough review of policy going on in those countries as well and i don t want to comment on the nature of the president s discussions other than to say that he s continuing to consult with our allies as we move forward and he s continuing to press them for further action and i think that process is ongoing q the other day voted against any military intervention yesterday does the president regard that as the end of the line or does he does still hold out some possibility of unilateral action the allies have been very very plain that they do not want to do anything ms myers the consultations are ongoing that s all i can tell you at this point q are you saying that there won t be any announcement on bosnia today in the press conference ms myers no that is not the intention of the press conference q what is the intention ms myers it s an opportunity to take questions he may have a brief i m sure he ll have a brief opening statement but it is not an opportunity to outline a new policy on bosnia that will not happen q can you tell us what the subject of the opening statement is ms myers it s sort of a general statement of where we are q after the first hundred days you mean ms myers it s not a long statement i mean this is just generally don t look for any major policy pronouncements q do you know what the opening statement is ms myers but it s perhaps later today i ll be able to tell you with more certainty i think that s still under review but the overriding purpose of this it s not a mystery it s not meant to be it s just to take questions q it would be helpful to know whether what the opening statement is on ms myers since the major purpose here is just to take questions it s not completely resolved yet q dee dee one policy that was expected last week and that the white house you and george seemed to indicate we might get would be an aids czar will he announce that today and what s the delay on that ms myers i don t think we meant to imply i think we said it would happen soon i don t think we meant to imply with any certainty that it would be this week it is coming soon i don t anticipate that happening today q what s the delay isn t this the perfect time to announce an aids czar ms myers i don t know that it s a delay i think the process is ongoing to find the best possible person and to go through the necessary background checks and to make sure that we ve crossed the t s and dotted the i s before we make an announcement q dee dee what are zoe baird s qualifications for the foreign intelligence advisory board and why wasn t her appointment announced here ms myers the qualifications i don t know if there s a specific list i ll have to check and see i think there are a number of people there on the board with different backgrounds many of them have long histories in intelligence or other government service i think there s a broad variety of views across political spectrum and across backgrounds that are represented there we never made a formal announcement other than the chairman of the board which is admiral william crowe q why would he appoint her though if the american people and many in the senate rejected her for another government job ms myers i don t believe that the american people ever had voted on her and i certainly she was never rejected in the senate she never went up there for a hearing but the president believes she s a very competent person he s said that zoe baird do you understand what the question is zoe baird is on the president s foreign intelligence q you said she never went up there for a hearing q her nomination was withdrawn after public outrage over violating federal laws ms myers right she never she was never but you said she was rejected by the senate i was just simply trying to point out that she was never voted on by the senate q so you don t think that is any problem ms myers i don t think there s any problem q she has been appointed to this board is that a fact ms myers yes q does she need confirmation for this does she need confirmation to be a member of the ms myers no it s a presidential appointment q usually announcements are made here at the white house was there a decision not to announce her publicly ms myers we didn t make an announcement people who asked were told who the members of the board were we didn t make an official announcement if anybody s interested in that we can certainly put out the list of names q i d like to know q don t such board members don t you normally as a matter of routinely put out releases on all these boards and presidential appointment regardless of their dimension ms myers not always but again i m happy to put this out q isn t that the standard practice q that was past practice ms myers again i m happy to put it out we ll put out a list of the members of the board today q dee dee i don t want to try to fail to let you get out of this swamp but laughter all i really want to know is hasn t it been the practice in this administration for such announcements to be made routinely ms myers i think generally but not always and we re happy to put that out today q what is the board what is her title what is the size of the board ms myers there is roughly a dozen members on the board it is a civilian board although their are some obviously retired military personnel on the board that provide input into intelligence policy for the president again the chairman of that board is admiral william crowe q and did he recommend baird q what s the name of the board ms myers it s the president s foreign intelligence advisory board pfiab q what s her qualification that she had employed an illegal alien is that laughter ms myers do you want an answer to the question or you just want to make a joke q let me phrase it another way why shouldn t this appointment be viewed as a pay back for the difficulty she had a couple of months ago ms myers because it s not q what s her experience in foreign intelligence ms myers she s an experienced attorney someone who the president believes is very competent and qualified and i think part of the mission of this board is to provide civilian input not everybody on the board is supposed to be an intelligence expert that is not the board s mission it is to provide civilian input for the president as he makes decisions regarding intelligence matters he believes she s very qualified very competent person enormously talented and has said that throughout q is this just a figment of my overactive imagination or was there discussion early on about abolishing the president s foreign intelligence advisory board ms myers i don t think so on december th when he announced all of his foreign policy advisors he announced that he would had appointed admiral crowe as the head of the board so i don t believe there s ever been any q earlier than that during the transition ms myers no i don t believe so it was announced again on december th admiral crowe couldn t be there but it was announced q are members paid ms myers i don t believe so but i ll double check q on another subject on waco how do you explain the discrepancy between the federal reports of the autopsies of the bodies that are coming out of waco and the state i guess it s the texas ranger reports ms myers most of the information is coming the federal information is coming from the site clearly there s been some discrepancies and the justice department is looking into it officials in the justice department were told i believe the day before yesterday that there were several bodies found with bullet holes i think there s some discrepancy about that and the justice department is looking into it q is the president going to get involved in trying to sort out what seems to be becoming a jurisdictional morass down there with some people withdrawing others saying they re in charge but others justice fbi texas rangers all grabbing a piece of this ms myers i don t know that he s going to try to mediate the dispute i mean i ll let you know if there s anything he intends to do about it but as you know there are several levels of investigation ongoing and we re hopeful that they can work together q is there any one agency or official down there in charge of everything ms myers i don t know i ll have to get back to you on that q what is the subject matter of sunday s speech ms myers it s going to be fairly general i don t think it s going to be any specific announcements i think it s going to be sort of a q does he have a topic that he s going to talk about ms myers we re still working on it but i wouldn t look for any announcements of like the drug czar or something like that q is it sort of a days speech sort of my excellent adventure for days laughter ms myers not exactly but i think he ll take a little bit broader look about what s happened in the last q foreign domestic ms myers a little bit of both but i think a lot of domestic q and overview ms myers yes more of an overview than a specific policy announcement q has there been an agreement yet on a forum by which the president will address the gay rights march on sunday ms myers it will be a letter read to the crowd by congresswoman nancy pelosi q is that available ms myers not yet but it will be sure q are you going to put it out here or ms myers we ll probably put it out here on sunday q travel next week ms myers unclear q what was the question q likely ms myers i don t q likely possible ms myers possible q what s possible ms myers travel q george mentioned yesterday campaign finance reform and national service legislative proposals next week do you have days yet for them ms myers not yet q can you tell us which order ms myers campaign finance reform first national service later in the week q is there any coverage tomorrow in williamsburg ms myers no q and any report in the aftermath of the day ms myers any readout from the day q readout ms myers it s possible jeff eller will be down there i think he can go through what the president did during the day we don t expect any photo op or anything other than departure here in the morning q dee dee the president has not made a regular practice as some of his predecessors have of going to camp david in fact he s been there what once or twice ms myers twice q why this weekend ms myers he went two weekends ago as you know on the way home from his father in law s funeral i think that they found it to be a good experience and a nice way for them to spend some time together as a family and this is just an opportunity to do the same q there s no march there q it has nothing to do with the march here ms myers no q since he s going to be in town sunday morning now instead of in jamestown have you thought about him making a quick pass by fly over laughter ms myers he ll fly straight to boston q flying straight did you say laughter q george took a question yesterday on waco the president had said on tuesday in the rose garden that there was a minor disagreement on tactics between the military advisors and the fbi and the question was whether you knew exactly what that was and whether it related to the use of the particular kind of tear gas do you have an answer on that ms myers i don t i ll check the press thank you end a m edt
talk.politics.misc	waco investigation do we know yet who will be holding the hearings and if so do we know who is on the committee of question askers i m sure many of us have potential questions we d like to send to them richard
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes homosexuals lie about the number to hide the disproportionate involvement of homosexuals in child molestation they also lie about to keep politicians scared you haven t shown any disproportionate involvement the janus report which came out recently gives as the percentage of exclusively or predominantly gay men no one is presumably going to say they re gay if they re not but some no doubt are going to hide their homosexuality in surveys thus the is a lower limit i still say that weighing all the evidence gives a most likely percentage between and brian kane buast astro bu edu hot young star astronomy dept boston university boston ma true personal salvation is achieved by absolute faith in ones true self
talk.politics.misc	clinton president s press conference the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april press conference by the president the east room p m edt the president terry do you have a question q mr president there s a growing feeling that the western response to bloodshed in bosnia has been woefully inadequate holocaust survivor elie wiesel asked you yesterday to do something anything to stop the fighting is the united states considering taking unilateral action such as air strikes against serb artillery sites the president well first let me say as you know for more than a week now we have been seriously reviewing our options for further action and i want to say too let s look at the last three months since i became president i have worked with our allies and we have tried to move forward first on the no fly zone on enforcement of it on the humanitarian airdrops on the war crimes investigation on getting the bosnian muslims involved in the peace process we have made some progress and now we have a very much tougher sanctions resolution and leon fuerth who is the national security advisor to the vice president is in europe now working on implementing that that is going to make a big difference to serbia and we are reviewing other options i think we should act we should lead the united states should lead we have led for the last three months we have moved the coalition and to be fair our allies in europe have been willing to do their part and they have troops on the ground there but i do not think we should act alone unilaterally nor do i think we will have to and in the next several days i think we will finalize the extensive review which has been going on and which has taken a lot of my time as well as the time of the administration as it should have over the last days or so i think we ll finish that in the near future and then we ll have a policy and we ll announce it and everybody can evaluate it q can i follow up the president sure q do you see any parallel between the ethnic cleansing in bosnia and the holocaust the president i think the holocaust is on a whole different level i think it is without precedent or peer in human history on the other hand ethnic cleansing is the kind of inhumanity that the holocaust took to the nth degree the idea of moving people around and abusing them and often killing them solely because of their ethnicity is an abhorrent thing and it is especially troublesome in that area where people of different ethnic groups live side by side for so long together and i think you have to stand up against it i think it s wrong we were talking today about all of the other troubles in that region i was happy to see the violence between the croats and the muslims in bosnia subside this morning and i think we re making progress on that front but what s going on with the serbians and the ethnic cleansing is qualitatively different than the other conflicts both within the former yugoslavia and in other parts of the region q mr president by any count you have not had a good week in your presidency the tragedy in waco the defeat of your stimulus bill the standoff in bosnia what did you do wrong and what are you going to do differently how do you look at things are you reassessing laughter the president i don t really believe that the situation in bosnia it s not been a good week for the world but i don t know that the administration could have made it different on the stimulus package i d like to put it into the larger context and remind you that in this days we have already fundamentally changed the direction of an american government we have abandoned trickle down economics we ve abandoned the policies that brought the debt of this country from trillion to trillion in only a decade the budget plan which passed the congress which will reduce the deficit and increase investment has led to a year low in mortgage rates dramatically lower interest rates there are probably people in this room who have refinanced their home mortgages in the last three months or who have had access to cheaper credit that s going to put tens of billion dollars coursing throughout this economy in ways that are very very good for the country and so we are moving in the right direction economically i regret that the stimulus did not pass and i have begun to ask and will continue to ask not only people in the administration but people in the congress whether there is something i could have done differently to pass that part of the reason it didn t pass was politics part of it was a difference in ideas there are really people still who believe that it s not needed i just disagree with that i think the recovery the economists say it s been underway for about two years and we ve still had months of seven percent unemployment and all the wealthy countries are having trouble creating jobs so i think there was an idea base an argument there that while we re waiting for the lower interest rates and the deficit reduction and the investments of the next four years to take effect this sort of supplemental appropriation should go forward now i have to tell you i did misgauge that because a majority of the republican senators now sitting in the senate voted for a similar stimulus when ronald reagan was president in and voted times for regular supplemental appropriations like this i just misgauged it and i hope that i can learn something i ve just been here days and you know i was a governor working with a contentious legislature for years and it took me a decade to get political reform there so it takes time to change things but i basically feel very good about what s happened in the first days with regard to the congress q waco the president well with regard to waco i don t have much to add to what i ve already said i think it is a i want the situation looked into i want us to bring in people who have any insights to bear on that i think it s very important that the whole thing be thoroughly gone over but i still maintain what i said from the beginning that the offender there was david koresh and i do not think the united states government is responsible for the fact that a bunch of fanatics decided to kill themselves and i m sorry that they killed their children q mr president to follow up partly on helen on your stimulus package and on your political approach to capitol hill ross perot said today that you re playing games with the american people in your tax policy he was strongly critical of your stimulus package he said he s going to launch an advertising campaign against the north american free trade agreement how are you going to handle his political criticism will it complicate your efforts on the hill with your economic plan and do you plan to repackage some of the things that have been in your stimulus program and try to resubmit them to the hill the president let me answer that question first we re going to revisit all of that over the next few days i m going to be talking to members of congress and to others to see what we can do about that with regard to the economic plan i must say i found that rather amazing i don t want to get into an argument with mr perot i ll be interested to hear what his specifics are but i would go back and read his book and his plan there s a remarkable convergence except that we have more specific budget cuts we raise taxes less on the middle class and more on the wealthy but otherwise the plans are remarkably similar so i think it would be i ll be interested to see if maybe perhaps he s changed his position from his book last year and he has some new ideas to bring to bear i ll be glad to hear them q to follow up sir how do you plan to handle his political criticism he s launched a campaign against you do you think you can sit back and just the president well first of all i will ask you to apply the same level of scrutiny to him as you do to me and if he s changed his position from the positions he took in the campaign last year then we need to know why and what his ideas are maybe he s got some constructive ideas i think the american people have shown that they re very impatient with people who don t want to produce results and the one thing i think that everybody has figured out about me in the last even if they don t agree with what i do is that i want to get something done i just came here to try to change things i want to do things and i want to do things that help people s lives so my judgment is that if he makes a suggestion that is good that is constructive that takes us beyond some idea i ve proposed that will change people s lives for the better fine but i think that that ought to be the test that we apply to everyone who weighs into this debate and not just to the president q mr president to go back to bosnia for a minute you continue to insist that this has to be multilateral action a criteria that seems to have hamstrung us when it comes to many options thus far and makes it look as if this is a state of paralysis the united states is the last remaining superpower why is it not appropriate in this situation for the united states to act unilaterally the president well the united states surely you would agree that the united states even as the last remaining superpower has to act consistent with international law under some mandate of the united nations q but you have a mandate and the president they do and that is one of the things that we have under review i haven t ruled out any option for action i would remind all of you i have not ruled out any option except that we have not discussed and we are not considering the introduction of american forces into continuing hostilities there we are not so we are reviewing other options but i also would remind you that to be fair our allies have had the french the british and the canadians have had troops on the ground there they have been justifiably worried about those but they have supported the airdrops the toughening of the sanctions they welcomed the american delegation now in europe working on how to make these sanctions really work and really bite against serbia and i can tell you that the other nations involved are also genuinely reassessing their position and i would not rule out the fact that we can reach an agreement for a concerted action that goes beyond where we have been i don t have any criticism of the british the french and others about that q would that be military action q mr president several of the leading lights in your administration ranging from your fbi director to your u n ambassador to your deputy budget director to your health services secretary have issued statements in the last couple of weeks which are absolutely contradictory to some of the positions you ve taken in your administration why is that are you losing your political grip the president give me an example q example judge sessions said that there was no child abuse in waco madeleine albright has said in this morning s newspapers at least that she favors air strikes in bosnia all of these are things you said that you didn t support the president first of all i don t know what we know that david koresh had sex with children i think that is undisputed is it not is it not does anybody dispute that where i come from that qualifies as child abuse and we know that he had people teaching these kids how to kill themselves i think that qualifies as abuse and i m not criticizing judge sessions because i don t know exactly what he said in terms of madeleine albright madeleine albright has made no public statement at all about air strikes there is a press report that she wrote me a confidential letter in which she expressed her or memo in which she expressed her views about the new direction we should take in response to my request to all the senior members of my administration to let me know what they thought we ought to do next and i have heard from her and from others about what they think we ought to do next and i m not going to discuss the recommendations they made to me but in the next few days when i make a decision about what to do then i will announce what i m going to do so i wouldn t say that either one of those examples qualifies speaking out of school q how about the value added tax mr president the president what was that q the value added tax mrs rivlin and miss shalala both said that they thought that that was a good idea the president i don t mind them saying they think it s a good idea there are all kinds of arguments for it on policy grounds that does not mean that we have decided to incorporate it in the health care debate no decision has been made on that and i have no objection to their expressing their views on that we ve had a lot of people from business and labor come to us saying that they thought that tax would help make their particular industries more competitive in the global economy i took no that wasn t taking a line against an administration policy q mr president a week ago a group of gay and lesbian representatives came out of a meeting with you and expressed in the most ringing terms their confidence in your understanding of them and their political aspirations and their belief that you would fulfill those aspirations do you feel now that you will be able to meet their now enhanced expectations the president well i don t know about that and i don t know what their it depends on what the expectations are but i ll tell you this i believe that this country s policies should be heavily biased in favor of nondiscrimination i believe when you tell people they can t do certain things in this country that other people can do there ought to be an overwhelming and compelling reason for it i believe we need the services of all of our people and i have said that consistently and not as a political proposition the first time this issue came up was in when i was in boston i was just asked the question about it and i might add it s interesting that i have been attacked obviously those who disagree with me here are primarily coming from the political right in america when i was governor i was attacked from the other direction for sticking up for the rights of religious fundamentalists to run their child care centers and to practice home schooling under appropriate safeguards i just have always had an almost libertarian view that we should try to protect the rights of american individual citizens to live up to the fullest of their capacities and i m going to stick right with that q are you concerned sir that you may have generated expectations on their end and criticism among others that has hamstrung your administration in the sense of far too great emphasis on this issue the president yes but i have not placed a great deal of emphasis on it it s gotten a lot of emphasis in other quarters and in the press i ve just simply taken my position and tried to see it through and that s what i do it doesn t take a lot of my time as president to say what i believe in and what i intend to do and that s what i ll continue to do q mr president getting back to the situation in bosnia and we understand you haven t made any final decisions on new options previously considered unacceptable but the two most commonly heard options would be lifting the arms embargo to enable the bosnian muslims to defend themselves and to initiate some limited air strikes perhaps to cut off supply lines without telling us your decision presumably you haven t made any final decisions on those two options what are the pros and cons that are going through your mind right now and will weigh heavily on your final decision the president i m reluctant to get into this there are those are two of the options there are some other options that have been considered all have pluses and minuses all have supporters and opponents within the administration and in the congress where i would remind you heavy consultations will be required to embark on any new policy i do believe that on the air strike issue the pronouncements that general powell has made generally about military action apply there if you take action if the united states takes action we must have a clearly defined objective that can be met we must be able to understand it and its limitations must be clear the united states is not should not become involved as a partisan in a war with regard to the lifting of the arms embargo the question obviously there is if you widen the capacity of people to fight will that help to get a settlement and bring about peace will it lead to more bloodshed what kind of reaction can others have that would undermine the effectiveness of the policy but i think both of them deserve some serious consideration along with some other options we have q do you think that these people who are trying to get us into war in bosnia are really remembering that we haven t taken care of hundreds of thousands of veterans from the last war and we couldn t take care of our prisoners and get them all home from vietnam and now many of them are coming up with bills for treatment of agent orange how can we afford to go to any more of these wars the president well i think that s a good argument against the united states itself becoming involved as a belligerent in a war there but we are after all the world s only super power we do have to lead the world and there is a very serious problem of systematic ethnic cleansing in the former yugoslavia which could have not only enormous further humanitarian consequences and goodness knows there have been many but also could have other practical consequences in other nearby regions where the same sorts of ethnic tensions exist q did you make any kind of agreement with boris yeltsin to hold off either on air strikes or any kind of aggressive action against the serbs until after sunday and in general how has his political situation affected your deliberation on bosnia the president no i have not made any agreement and he did not ask for that we never even discussed that interestingly enough the russians i would remind you in the middle of president yeltsin s campaign abstained from our attempt to get tougher sanctions through the united nations in what i thought was the proper decision for them and one that the united states and i m sure the rest of the free world very much appreciated q do you wish mr president that you d become more involved in the planning of the waco operation and how would you handle that situation differently now the president i don t think as a practical matter that the president should become involved in the planning of those kinds of things at that detail one of the things that i m sure will come out when we look into this is the questions will be asked and answered did all of us who up the line of command ask the questions we should have asked and get the answers we should have gotten and i look forward to that but at the time i have to say as i did before the first thing i did after the atf agents were killed once we knew that the fbi was going to go in was to ask that the military be consulted because of the quasi as least military nature of the conflict given the resources that koresh had in his compound and their obvious willingness to use them and then on the day before the action i asked the questions of the attorney general which i have reported to you previously and which at the time i thought were sufficient i have as i said i m sure i leave it to others to make the suggestions about whether there are other questions i should have asked q mr president what is your assessment of director sessions role in the waco affair and have you made a decision on his future and if you haven t will you give him a personal hearing before you do decide the president well first of all i have no assessment of his role since i had no direct contact with him and i mean no negative or positive inference i have no assessment there i stand by what i said before about my general high regard for the fbi and i m waiting for a recommendation from the attorney general about what to do with the direction of the fbi q mr president since you said that one side in bosnia conflict represents inhumanity that the holocaust carried to the nth degree why do you then tell us that the united states cannot take a partisan view in this war the president well i said that the principle of ethnic cleansing is something we ought to stand up against that does not mean that the united states or the united nations can enter a war in effect to redraw the lines geographical lines of republics within what was yugoslavia or that that would ultimately be successful i think what the united states has to do is to try to figure out whether there is some way consistent with forcing the people to resolve their own difficulties we can stand up to and stop ethnic cleansing and that is obviously the difficulty we are wrestling with this is clearly the most difficult foreign policy problem we face and that all of our allies face and if it were easy i suppose it would have been solved before we have tried to do more in the last days than was previously done it has clearly not been enough to stop the serbian aggression and we are now looking at what else we can do q yesterday you specifically criticized the roosevelt administration for not having bombed the railroads to the concentration camps and things that were near military targets aren t there steps like that that would not involve conflict direct conflict or partisan belligerence that you might consider the president there may be i would remind you that the circumstances were somewhat different we were then at war with germany at the time and that s what made that whole incident so series of incidents so perplexing but we have as i say we ve got all of our options under review q the diplomatic initiative on haiti is on the verge of collapse what can you do to salvage it short of a full scale military operation the president well you may know something i don t that s not what our people tell me i think mr caputo and ambassador pezzullo have done together a good job the thing keeps going back and forth because of the people who are involved with the de facto government there it s obvious what their concerns are they were the same concerns that led to the ouster of aristide in the first place and president aristide we feel should be restored to power we re working toward that i get a report on that we discuss it at least three times a week and i m convinced that we re going to prevail there and be successful i do believe that there s every reason to think that there will have to be some sort of multilateral presence to try to guarantee the security and the freedom from violence of people on both sides of the ledger while we try to establish the conditions of ongoing civilized society but i believe we re going to prevail there q mr president would you care to make your assessment of the first days before we make one for you laughter the president well i ll say if i believe first of all we passed the budget resolution in record time that was the biggest issue that confirmed the direction of the administration and confirmed the commitments of the campaign that we could both bring the deficit down and increase investment and that we could do it by specific spending cuts and by raising taxes almost all of which come from the highest income people in this society reversing a year trend in which most of the tax burdens were borne by the middle class whose incomes were going down when their taxes were going up while the deficit went from trillion to trillion the total national debt and the deficit continued to go up we have a year low in interest rates from mortgages we have lower interest rates across the board we have tens of billions of dollars flooding back into this economy as people refinance their debt we have established a new environmental policy which is dramatically different the secretary of education has worked with me and with others and with the governors to establish a new approach in education that focuses on tough standards as well as increasing opportunity we have done an enormous amount of work on political reform on campaign finance and lobbying reform and i have imposed tough ethics requirements on my own administration s officials these things are consistent with not only what i said i d do in the campaign but with turning the country around the vice president is heading a task force which will literally change the way the federal government operates and make it much more responsive to the citizens of this country we are working on a whole range of other things the welfare reform initiative to move people from welfare to work and of course a massive amount of work has been done on the health care issue which is a huge economic and personal security problem for millions of americans so i think it is amazing how much has been done more will be done we also passed the family leave bill a version of the motor voter bill that has not come out of conference back to me yet and everything has been passed except the stimulus program so i think we re doing fine and we re moving in the right direction i feel good about it q sir a follow up wouldn t you say though that one of your biggest initiatives aid to soviet russia is now practically finished if we can t pass a stimulus bill in our own country how can we do it for them the president let me recast the question a little bit it s a good question laughter it s a good question but to be fair we ve got to recast it we have already the first round of aid to the soviet to non soviet russia to a democratic russia is plainly going to go through the first billion the aid that we agreed with our partners in the g to provide through the international financial institutions which is a big dollar item is plainly going to go through the question is can we get any more aid for russia that requires a new appropriation by the united states congress and that is a question i think mary that will be resolved in the weeks ahead in part by what happens to the american workers and their jobs and their future i think the two things will be tied by many members of congress q the tailhook report came out this morning documenting horrendous and nearly criminal conduct on the part of the navy how much did you discuss the incident and what might be done about it with your nominee to be the secretary of the navy the president first let me comment a little on that the inspector general s report details conduct which is wrong and which has no place in the armed services and i expect the report to be acted on in the appropriate way i also want to say to the american people and to all of you that the report should be taken for what it is a very disturbing list of allegations which will have to be thoroughly examined it should not be taken as a general indictment of the united states navy or of all the fine people who serve there it is very specific in its allegations and it will be pursued the only thing i said to the secretary designate of the navy and the only thing i should have said to him i think is that i expected him to take the report and to do his duty and i believe he will do that q mr president to back to russia for just a minute the latest poll show that mr yeltsin will probably win his vote of confidence but there seems to be a real toss up on whether or not voters are going to endorse his economic reforms the president i understand that q can you live with a split laughter can you live with a split decision though or do you need both passed in order to then build support for russian aid the president i believe the answer to your question is for the united states the key question should be that which is posed to any democracy which is who wins the election if he wins the election if he is ratified by the russian people to continue as their president then i think we should do our best to work with him toward reform you know we had a lot of other countries here for the holocaust museum dedication their leaders were here leaders from eastern europe leaders from at least one republic of the former soviet union all of them having terrible economic challenges as they convert from a communist command and control economy to a market economy in a world where there s economic slowdown everywhere and in a world in which there s economic slowdown and difficulty all leaders will have trouble having their policies be popular in a poll because they haven t produced the results that the people so earnestly yearn for you can understand that but if they have confidence in the leadership i think that s all we can ask and the united states will if the russian people ratify him as their president and stick with him then the united states will continue to work with him i think he is a genuine democrat small d and genuinely committed to reform i think that we should support that q mr president mr perot has come out strongly in what is perceived behind the line against a free trade agreement nafta how hard are you going to fight for this free trade agreement and when do you expect to see it accomplished the president i think we ll have the agreement ready in the fairly near future you know our people are still working with the mexican government and with the canadians on the side agreements we re trying to work out what the environmental agreement will say what the labor agreement will say and then what the fairest way to deal with enforcement is the mexicans say and there is some merit to their position that they re worried about transferring their sovereignty in enforcement to a multilateral commission even in the united states to be fair we have some folks who are worried about that about giving that up on the other hand if we re going to have an environmental agreement and a labor standards agreement that means something then there has to be ultimately some consequences for violating them so what we re trying to do is to agree on an approach which would say that if there is a pattern of violations if you keep on violating it past a certain point maybe not an isolated incident but a pattern of violation there is going to be some enforcement there must be consequences and we re working out the details of that but i still feel quite good about it and this is just an area where i disagree with mr perot and with others i think that we will win big if we have a fair agreement that integrates more closely the mexican economy and the american economy and leads us from there to chile to other market economies in latin america and gives us a bigger world in which to trade i think that s the only way a rich country can grow richer if you look at what japan and other countries in the pacific are doing to reach out in their own region it s a pretty good lesson to us that we had better worry about how to build those bridges in our own area so this is an idea battle you know you ve got a lot of questions and i want to answer them all but let me say not every one of these things can be distilled simply into politics you know who s for this and who s for that and if this person is for this somebody else has got to be for that a lot of these things honestly involved real debates over ideas over who s right and wrong about the world toward which we re moving and the answers are not self evident and one of the reasons that i wanted to run for president is i wanted to sort of open the floodgates for debating these ideas so that we could try to change in the appropriate way so i just have a difference of opinion i believe that the concept of nafta is sound even though as you know i thought that the details needed to be improved q mr president there was a tremendous flurry of interest earlier this month in the russian document that purported to show that the vietnamese had held back american prisoners general vessey has now said publicly that while the document itself was authentic he believes that it was incorrect do you have a personal view at this point about that issue and more broadly do you believe that in fact the vietnamese did return all the american prisoners at the time of the paris peace accord the president first let me say i saw general vessey before he went to vietnam and after he returned and i have a high regard for him and i appreciate his willingness to serve his country in this way as to whether the document had any basis in fact let me say that the government of vietnam was more forthcoming than it had been in the past and gave us some documents that would tend to undermine the validity of the russian documents claim i do not know whether that is right or wrong we are having it basically evaluated at this time and when we complete the evaluation we ll tell you and of course we want to tell the families of those who were missing in action or who were pows i think that we ll be able to make some progress in eliminating some of the questions about the outstanding cases as a result of this last interchange but i cannot say that i m fully satisfied that we know all that we need to know there are still some cases that we don t know the answer to but i do believe we re making some progress i was encouraged by the last trip q i d like to follow up on that before the u s normalizes relations allows trade to go forward do you have to be personally sure that every case has been resolved or would you be willing to go forward on the basis that while it may take years to resolve these cases the vietnamese have made sufficient offerings to us to confirm good faith the president a lot of experts say you can never resolve every case every one that we couldn t resolve all the cases for them and that there are still some cases that have not been factually resolved going back to the second world war but what i would have to be convinced of is that we had gone a long way toward resolving every case that could be resolved at this moment in time and that there was a complete open and unrestricted commitment to continue to do everything that could be done always to keep resolving those cases and we re not there yet again i have to be guided a little bit by people who know a lot about this and i confess to being much more heavily influenced by the families of the people whose lives were lost there or whose lives remain in question than by the commercial interest and the other things which seem so compelling in this moment i just am very influenced by how the families feel q your economic stimulus package are you doing some kind of reality check now and scaling back some of your plans your legislative plans for the coming year including the crime bill the health care initiative and other things are there any plans to do that and also did you underestimate the power of senator bob dole the president no what i underestimated was the extent to which what i thought was a fairly self evident case particularly after we stayed below the spending caps approved by this congress including the republicans who were in this congress last year when we had already passed a budget resolution which called for over billion in deficit reduction when they had voted repeatedly for supplemental appropriations to help foreign governments i thought at least four of them would vote to break cloture and i underestimated that i did not have an adequate strategy of dealing with that i also thought that if i made a good faith effort to negotiate and to compromise that it would not be rebuffed instead every time i offered something they reduced the offer that they had previously been talking to the majority leader about so it was a strange set of events but i think what happened was what was a significant part of our plan but not the major part of it acquired a political connotation that got out of proportion to the merits so that a lot of republicans were saying to me privately mr president i d like to be for this but i can t now and we re all strung out and we re divided and i think we need to do a reality check as i said what i want to know let me go back to what i said what i want to know from our folks and from our friends in the senate on and republicans or democrats is what could i have done differently to make it come out differently because the real losers here were not the president and the administration the real losers were the hundreds of thousands of people who won t have jobs now we could have put another kids to work this summer i mean we could have done a lot of good things with that money and i think that is very very sad and it became more political than it should have but the underlying rationale i don t think holds a lot of water that it was deficit spending that just won t wash q and redo the president no i mean you know for example you mentioned the crime bill i think it would be a real mistake not to pass the crime bill i mean the crime bill was almost on the point of passage last year and they were all fighting over the brady bill surely surely after what we have been through in this country just in the last three months with the kind of mindless violence we have seen we can pass a bill requiring people to go through a waiting period before they buy a handgun and surely we can see that we need more police officers on the street that s another thing that i really believe that once we move some of that money not all but some of it up into this jobs package to make some of the jobs rehiring police officers on the street who d been laid off that would be a compelling case i mean people are scared in this country and i think we need to go forward i feel very strongly that we need to go forward on the crime bill q mr president back to the tailhook report for a second that report contained very strong criticism of the navy s senior leadership in general but did not name any of the senior officers do you believe that the senior officers who are implicated in this including admiral kelso who was there one night in las vegas should they be disciplined and do you believe the public has a right to know the names of the senior officers the president you should know that under the rules of law which apply to this i am in the chain of command there is now an inspector general s report and the law must take its course if i were to answer that question i might prejudice any decisions which might be later made in this case i don t really think i think all i can tell you is what i have already said i was very disturbed by the specific allegations in the inspector general s report and i want appropriate action to be taken until the proper procedures have a chance to kick in and appropriate action is taken i have been advised that because i am the commander in chief i have to be very careful about what i say so as not to prejudice the rights of anybody against whom any action might proceed or to prejudice the case in any other way either pro or con so i can t say any more except to say that i want this thing handled in an appropriate and thorough way q mr president could i ask you for a clarification on bosnia you said that you were not considering introduction of american forces does that include any air forces as well as ground forces sir the president i said ground forces q you said ground forces could i ask you sir if you fear that using u s air strikes might draw the united states into a ground war there the president i just don t want to discuss our evaluation of the options anymore i ve told you that there s never been a serious discussion in this country about the introduction of ground forces into an ongoing conflict there q with hundreds of thousands of gays in washington this weekend for the march did you ever reconsider your decision to leave town for this weekend did you ever consider in any way participating in some of the activities the president no q why not the president because i and basically i wouldn t participate in other marches i think once you become president on balance except under unusual circumstances that is not what should be done but more importantly i m going to the american society of newspaper editors a trip that presumably most of you would want me to make to try to focus anew on what i think are the fundamental issues at stake for our country right now and i expect that i will say something about the fact that a lot of americans have come here asking for a climate that is free of discrimination asking basically to be able to work hard and live by the rules and be treated like other american citizens if they do that and just that and that s always been my position not only for the gays who will be here but for others as well thank you very much end p m edt
talk.politics.misc	re mow bodycount in article onrc xzu iif netcom com onr netcom com d owen rowley writes of course the last mow was the same thing but the media ignored us i guess that was just labor pains perhaps they will ignore us again in which case we will come in even largeer numbers next time local media hasn t said much if anything about the mow also when i called a straight friend in arlington to tell him i would be on his doorstep this weekend he didn t know anything at all about the march this is a gay sympathetic person who notices things like this i thought it was strange that he was unaware of what was happening it made me wonder just how much coverage is getting to mainstream america scott amspoker head like a hole black as your soul basis international albuquerque nm i d rather die than give you control scott bbx basis com nine inch nails
talk.politics.misc	re are americans sexually repressed cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes unless of course the problem is that homosexuality is a form of mental disorder caused by childhood sexual abuse as a number of recent works suggest oh please enlighten us all what articles in particular are you quoting from i m doing my masters in psychopathology and it would interest me greatly in seeing these articles that you know exist yet i know nothing about i m sure i could give them to people doing their phd s with information like this they ll have their degree in no time sprinkle sarcasm where applicable don t bother with the little girl is raped by her daddy and is now a lesbian because of it studies they have always been under critical scrutiny as to their validity correlation causation fluffy the wonder bunny sex is not the answer sex is the question yes is the answer behind each have a nice day is a go fuck yourself ralph cherubini the other night i was lying in bed looking up at the stars and i wondered where the fuck is my roof pcalitri descartes waterloo edu hi i am a signature virus copy me into your signature and join the fun
talk.politics.misc	re clayton is an asshole but we all already know that here s a hypothetical question if clayton said something like all those niggers are really stupid please don t be offended i m not racist but merely using an example of clayton s malign logic and then said he read a report that a lot of blacks in inner cities dropped out of school i bet he wouldn t have your support yet he can claim that all homosexuals are dishonest evil lying child molesters without personally having a single homosexual friend or acquaintance and you ll sit there and support him god created a place for bigots it s called hell and clayton is going to burn there for a long time i pray for him to find in his heart the christian values he espouses so that he can learn to love his gay brothers and sisters because anyone with so much hatred in his soul coulld never be righteous there is a difference between supporting claytons opinions and supporting his right to speak i want you to know that you cannot educate and or elevate ones understanding by calling him names clayton has an opinion which in his mind is as valid as any opinion anyone else on the net has if you were to walk up to black person to talk about blacks in the inner city and began the conversation with those niggers in th you would lose the attention of that black person by the time you spoke your second word all name calling and derisive remarks do is turn off the audience you are trying to address clayton is guilty of that and as such has distracted attention away from his message to bits and pieces of his conversation i don t understand why people want to repeat his mistakes rogerd netcom com rogerd aqm com hanging by the tips of my finger at the edge of the internet
talk.politics.misc	re waco in article c u a bfh cbnews cb att com ddn cbnews cb att com david d nason writes thirdly it seems incredibly hypocritical to place blame given the benefit of hindsight something that those who made the decisions did not have the benefit of why not give them the courtesy of acknowledging that they did the best they could with the data they had in a very very difficult situation what is your proof that they did the best they could unless they had strong evidence that the children were in immediate danger then the best they could have done was to show restraint some of us did predict this outcome or at least suggested a strong possibility of it i for one said that in the event of an assault against the building the children were the ones in danger either from the assault itself or from a jonestown my phrase a week after the seige started style suicide and as i pointed out then and repeatedly over the objections of people on the net who disagreed with me an adult may freely choose suicide but they have no right to impose this choice on their children now while i don t expect the fbi to pay any attention to what i have to say on this i do expect them to figure it out on their own or to take the advice of experts the cult specialist inter viewed in yesterday s boston globe said he was repeatedly stonewalled by the fbi when he pointed out to them that their confrontational tactics played perfectly into koresh s mad view of the world and so increased the chance of a tragic outcome some responses have gone so far to suggest that the actions were done without regard for the lives of the people in the compound give me a break give us a break pumping teargas for minutes into a compound filled with children this doesn t seem to show much regard for their lives or safety nontoxic teargas is an oxymoron children have tiny respiratory passages which are easily blocked by the secretions induced by teargas moreover teargas can easily cause fatalities in anyone subject to laryngospasms asthma or heart disease if a madman is holding a gun to a hostage someone who provokes the madman by attacking him bears nearly as much repsonsibility for the death of the hostage as the madman himself these kinds of situations have to be handled delicately not by surrounding a place with tanks and heavily armed personnel and blaring rock music from loud speakers at all hours that approach is idiotic be part of the solution not the problem the solution is to greatly reduce the authority of the the authorities the feds showed themselves here as they have so many times in the past to be a gang of trigger happy impulsive yahoos who cause more trouble than they prevent their confrontational approach reinforced every single message koresh was giving his followers virtually guarantee ing that whatever crazy solution koresh proposed would be followed willingly this was pointed out here on compuserve in the press just about every place except in the justice department where it seems a n i h philosophy prevails peter
talk.politics.misc	re clinton remarks by the president on waco w q a in article r g oinnqa life ai mit edu clinton hq campaign org the white house writes the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april remarks by the president in question and answer session with the press p m edt the president on february the th four federal agents were killed in the line of duty trying to enforce the law against the branch davidian compound which had illegally stockpiled weaponry and ammunition and placed innocent children at risk because the batf operation had failed to meet its objective a day standoff ensued the federal bureau of investigation then made every reasonable effort to bring this perilous situation to an end without bloodshed and further loss of life the bureau s efforts were ultimately unavailing because the individual with whom they were dealing david koresh was dangerous irrational and probably insane the stacy koon lawrence powell defense the decisions of janet reno and bill clinton in this affair are essentially the moral equivalents of stacy koon s reno and clinton have the advantage in that they investigate themselves gerald
talk.politics.misc	re abolish selective service in article visser convex convex com visser convex com lance visser writes dave borden borden head cfa harvard edu wrote the selective service registration should be abolished to start with the draft is immoral whether you agree with that or not we don t have one now and military experts agree that the quality of the armed forces is superior with a volunteer army than with draftees finally the government has us on many lists in many computers the irs social security admistration and motor vehicle registries to name a few and it can find us if it needs to maintaining yet another list of people is an utter waste of money and time let s axe this whole department and reduce the deficit a little bit more gridlock talk from another relic of the past the selective service system creates jobs and is an investment in the future of america and whats wrong with that do we want to create jobs or do we want jobs created that are productive in our supply demand economy if your answer is the former then we can just round up all jobless people and pay them to build sandcastles in the desert if you answer the latter then i fail to see how another bureaucracy produces anything we need jobs because at this point in the recovery the economy should have generated billion jobs and since it has not the government has to step in and help shutting down selective service would cost good jobs and we can t do that what we really need is to involve selective service in a more closely directed manner we need the selective service involved in environmental protection high speed rail commuter aircraft civil rights national service and health care every dollar we put into selective service now will get us less spending in future i really believe now to think about it that selective service is long past due for the creation of a cabinet position your not beyond hope just get back on america s side and start doing your part for change what bill needs from you now is support for the economic stimulus and health care reform you need to devote all your energies to fighting gridlock and supporting change get on the team after all the evil has been banished from washington and the time for complaint is past being neccessary and remember bill clinton cares he may someday even have a town meeting in your city if your an appropriate sort of person if you phrase your questions properly and show the proper respect and awe you might have the chance to ask mr president your question in person oh i get it this is sarcastic right
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article bu edu kane buast bu edu hot young star writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes homosexuals lie about the number to hide the disproportionate involvement of homosexuals in child molestation they also lie about to keep politicians scared you haven t shown any disproportionate involvement the janus report which came out recently gives as the percentage of exclusively or predominantly gay men i thumbed through the janus report in a bookstore recently looking for a clue about their methodology they were very unclear about it but as far as i could tell they relied on their professional associates in the psychotherapy profession to provide the subjects interviews and numbers if so this would hardly represent an average cross section i posted to usenet at the time asking for more data about their methodology but answer came there none i must have been out of my mind for even asking for factual information on usenet no one is presumably going to say they re gay if they re not but some no doubt are going to hide their homosexuality in surveys thus the is a lower limit this is the problem people have to have a lot of confidence in the anonymity of a study before they can counted on to speak freely about stuff like that but i agree that if someone s going to lie it will be in the direction of a gay person claiming to be straight rather than the other way around i still say that weighing all the evidence gives a most likely percentage between and i don t see why there s any more evidence for this figure than any other it seems totally arbitrary peter
talk.politics.misc	re waco and panama in article apr a cs okstate edu kennejs a cs okstate edu kennedy james scot writes i completely agree with you the illegal invasion of panama was something mr bush never did have to answer for remember not only did a lot of panamanian civilians get killed but more than a few american soldiers died too all this for arresting a petty dictator here s the icing on the cake to my knowledge the flow of drugs from panama hasn t slowed down at all with the removal of noriega so what good did it do to remove him from power the cigarette cops and the fbi killing the branch davidians in waco is equally reprehensible btw i ve cross posted this article to t p d because i want to hear from knowledgable people on whether or not the arrest of noriega affected the drug trade in any way the arrest of noriega did not have any major adverse effect on the drug trade going through panama money laundering continues to be panama s main industry in fact it is bigger now than before noriega was arrested panama s current administration also has ties with the colombian cocaine cartels and large amounts cocaine still flow through panama on a regular basis oh well sources from the book drugs in america by vincent bugliosi irs criminal investigations divison new york times u s state department michael wang mmwang mv us adobe com
talk.politics.misc	re eight myths about national health insurance pt ii in article c wx u ii acsu buffalo edu v pxgt ubvmsb cc buffalo edu daniel b case writes in article apr news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes i ve come to learn to suspect anything in the american press about our system if much or some of it were true you d have to take us for idiots for tolerating it and given that our insurance was installed during a period when there were only liberal and tory governments federally and provincially and the socialists are still chafing they would ve pressed for real socialized medicine to fix things think about it after all we are using the u s as a metric to make comparison both for keeping up with the joneses as for confirming that we did something right true but remember that most of the canadian bashing exists because american proponents of your system make it look like it walks on water even you don t go that far sorry but i d have to differ the canadian bashing wrt to the health insurance system is largely with little evidence or prompting having kept up with this debate on the net for some months just about all the criticism of the canadian system has misquoted or misinterpreted even the anti canadian propaganda put out by the american insurance industry and the ama in a few cases such as mr case the critiques are well reasoned and worthy of response most others are misinformed illogical or just plain dumb i don t think the same can be said of the american proponents of the canadian system much less of the canadian proponents jsh steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
talk.politics.misc	clinton press briefing by george stephanopoulos the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april press briefing by george stephanopoulos the briefing room p m edt mr stephanopoulos as you know the president is going to come out at p m with your indulgence i think what we d like to do is have the president award the national teacher s award first and then have the teacher leave or whatever and then he ll make a statement on waco and take a couple questions so if we can just hold off going live and all that until that s done it probably will work out a lot better q if you ll give us the time that s the problem q we ve got a two minute warning problem mr stephanopoulos yes it is a problem it s about p m q the teacher would walk off and then mr stephanopoulos i think that s i m just trying to work this out here i think that s the best way to handle it q can i ask you a series of questions about the way the president handled the notifications yesterday mr stephanopoulos sure q did you for instance talk to the justice department about who would come out and discuss what had happened in waco and whether it should be the attorney general or the president mr stephanopoulos why don t we just take a step even farther back from that and look at the whole sequence of events on the contact between the justice department and the white house as you know and as we ve said the president spoke with the attorney general on sunday sunday afternoon they had a good discussion about minutes the attorney general informed the president of what she wanted to do he raised no objections obviously she had the implicit authority from the president to go forward he raised no objections she went forward they had a discussion of a general nature about the incident again yesterday morning around a m the president spoke with the attorney general again they had a brief discussion over what was happening in waco as you know this was before the fire broke out at the compound and i think that was why there was some just some confusion i think that she was confusing in her minds before and after the fire not the actual day when they spoke then there was a number of contacts at a number of different levels in the white house yesterday afternoon between the justice department and the white house they were informing us of their decisions what they would like to do there was an fbi briefing in waco the attorney general had her press conference the president then issued a statement after that frankly yesterday afternoon you know there was a fair amount of confusion over exactly what was happening on the ground in waco and i think that we wanted to be very careful not to have the president say anything until we had a much better sense of what was actually happening on the ground once we were fairly clear on what was happening on the ground in waco the president issued a statement he spoke with the attorney general again yesterday evening q at what hour was that mr stephanopoulos it was quite late i believe it was after he returned from the holocaust museum he took a tour of the holocaust museum last night q and he went out to dinner mr stephanopoulos i believe briefly yes he went to dinner and then he spoke with the attorney general last night i don t know the exact time i think it was relatively late and he just said i think as dee dee has reported that he just wanted to tell her that he thought she handled a difficult situation very well that she did a good job in a tough situation and that she should try and get some sleep he then again spoke with her this morning about the follow up in waco and about what they re going to do this afternoon as you know the president will have an announcement to make at q did he ever talk with webb hubbell yesterday last night or this morning mr stephanopoulos not to my knowledge no q was webb hubbell the point man for the white house mr stephanopoulos webb hubbell is the general white house liaison and several people talked to webb the attorney general was running the operation q did he tell her that she should sleep well that she had done a good job or he just tell her that she should get some sleep mr stephanopoulos i think sleep well done a good job i don t know the exact words i think that sounds right q i mean sleep well has implications as to conscience and whether she should feel badly about it or not mr stephanopoulos well i mean i think everybody feels badly when you have a situation when q i understand that but whether the issue of blame is brought up in that phraseology mr stephanopoulos i think that s the spirit no it has nothing to do with that the spirit with which it was offered was that the entire administration and certainly the attorney general had to face a very difficult decision a very difficult situation yesterday and that he thought that she had handled it well as best as she could and q well does he think it was mishandled mr stephanopoulos it was just speaking of warm words to a friend q does he think the situation was mishandled mr stephanopoulos the president q in retrospect mr stephanopoulos the president stands by the decisions of the law enforcement agencies the decisions of the attorney general he accepts full responsibility at the same time i think that we all want to look to the future and figure out what exactly happened do a full review and make sure we do what we can to make sure this doesn t happen this kind of thing doesn t happen again or at least we know how to handle it q how much did he know about what she was going to go ahead with i know that she made the case to him explained outlined the case for action did she say to him on sunday precisely what action mr stephanopoulos i don t think it was specific operational detail as to what was going to happen i think that they had a general discussion about the action about the advisability of action i think as she noted he asked a few general questions just trying to get a sense of how things were considered but it wasn t minute by minute detail of how the operation q well was it we are going in is it we re going to use tear gas i mean what mr stephanopoulos i believe it was that we want to go in and take some action that would increase the pressure on those in the compound and hopefully spur them towards some sort of movement out q george was there ever a conscious political decision made or even a discussion about distancing the president from mr stephanopoulos not at all i mean we were in close contact with the justice department the president accepts responsibility for this at the same time i mean we just wanted to be very very clear about how this happened and be as factual as we could be on how the decisions were made it is the responsibility of those on the ground to make recommendations the attorney general has operational control over this the president obviously accepts responsibility for all of this and he stands by the attorney general q george there was a report on the television today and i don t know more than that one of the members of the cult had said going into a courthouse that the fbi had started the fire and not themselves there was also a picture yesterday on the tv of a smashing into the building where the fire broke out and my question is is the white house absolutely certain that this fire was mr stephanopoulos all the evidence we have is that this fire was started by david koresh and those inside the compound every bit of evidence we have q did the president ask the attorney general why do this now why this particular date and did he ask about possible consequences of either death or injury mr stephanopoulos i don t know the specific questions he had general questions about how the decision was going about being made q those are general questions and did he ask generally why now mr stephanopoulos i think he asked have you considered all of the consequences have you considered the recommendations i don t know if he asked the question why now i don t know if he asked that specific question q did she tell him why now in terms of the stuff that s come out since then about the information provided by the listening device about koresh getting increasingly more violent mr stephanopoulos again i m not certain how much specific detail they got into i know that she generally said that this is the recommendation she s prepared to make i mean the decision she s prepared to make it s based on the recommendations she was receiving from the field and after intensive questioning of those involved again i do not know how precisely detailed it was beyond that q what is the president s understanding why yesterday one of the people who went into the compound a couple weeks ago came out over the weekend with some speculation that he may have told law enforcement people something that precipitated this action why yesterday mr stephanopoulos this is the first i ve heard i think what we can go to is what the fbi and the attorney general has said there were indications that those inside the compound were at some danger it was clear that the negotiations had broken down and it was the judgment of the experts involved in the negotiations that the situation was not going to get any better at all there was also some concern over the vulnerability of the agents themselves who had been working long beyond the time that these teams normally have to work and as the attorney general has said there was some concern over the fact that they did not have replacements in place who could stand in for them and there was a concern over the safety all of these factors came into play they also considered the advice of a number of psychologists and other experts on david koresh and those in the compound i would just go back to what the attorney general has said you have to make the best judgment you can given the information you have at the time they did obviously we all regret the loss of life it s a terribly unfortunate situation we all wish it could have turned out differently but that doesn t take away from the judgments that were made at the time q george when did the president know that they were going to use tear gas was it before the assault on the compound mr stephanopoulos i just don t know i don t believe he was given a lot of detail on exactly how the operation would go i just don t know q along that point george can you say whether the plan was presented to the president by the attorney general as a way to end the standoff one way or the other yesterday mr stephanopoulos i think it was presented as a way to increase the pressure on those in the compound and we all hoped as a way to move some of those out and bring it in it wasn t presented as tomorrow is d day this is it q is the president satisfied that a he had all this relevant information necessary to make a decision and b that janet reno had all the relevant information necessary to make a decision mr stephanopoulos oh i think he s satisfied that they were acting on the best advice and the best information they had and he s not second guessing it in any way whatsoever q george was there a hour gap between conversations between the president and the attorney general in other words they spoke at a m and they didn t speak again until clinton got back from dinner at mr stephanopoulos i think that s likely yes q did he call her what time did she call was there a gap between when she called him i mean was he at dinner when she called and mr stephanopoulos no no no i think he called her last night i couldn t swear to it but i believe he called her last night he just wanted to talk to her q what was going on mr stephanopoulos not that i know of no q what do you know about the situation now everyone has perished who except eight or nine and do you know any of the other details mr stephanopoulos i don t know any more details than the fbi reported in waco q watching cnn or how was he keeping track of what is going on if he wasn t talking to his attorney general how was he keeping track of what was going on here i mean with all due respect to cnn is that how he was doing it mr stephanopoulos no there was also as i said several people in the white house were in constant contact with their counterparts at justice to have the full and complete information q who were those contacts i mean was it mack mclarty webb hubbell how was the president being kept informed that s not a mr stephanopoulos i believe mack was in contact with webb i spoke with several people at the justice department i believe bruce lindsey spoke with people at the justice department either bernie or vince was also in contact at different times during the day with people at the justice department we were fully briefed and fully informed q we were told this morning that the president may have spoken a chance that he may have spoken with webb do you know if that s true or not mr stephanopoulos i think there s a chance he may have i don t believe he did but i think there s certainly a chance that he may have at some point i don t believe he did i think that the last contact he had during the day yesterday directly with the justice department was the a m phone call with the attorney general but the white house was fully informed on a minute to minute basis of what was happening in waco and what was happening at the justice department q george who decided that the briefing would be done by the attorney general mr stephanopoulos the attorney general q did you or did the white house communications staff were you ever involved with that decision mr stephanopoulos no we were told about it q did you ask her to go on nightline and macneil lehrer and all that stuff was that part of mr stephanopoulos no q there was no advice from the white house at all about her she was on all night all day laughter mr stephanopoulos yes and she did a very good job q why did you decide to have the president s reaction to the situation be only a written statement which is traditionally the white house s way of distancing the president from the issue not having him appear as personally saying anything mr stephanopoulos well that wasn t the intent at all as i said we had to we wanted to wait until we had all of the information at hand the president is also making a statement today the president made a statement yesterday morning the president has been fully involved q after this turned into less than a successful operation the only statement from the president was what was on paper after the attorney general had already given what amounted to the major facts in this mr stephanopoulos well it was the first statement from the president not the only statement from the president number one q after the mr stephanopoulos number two well the first number two the attorney general q he gave a statement early in the morning when the thing was starting to move mr stephanopoulos right and he gave one yesterday and he s giving one today now the second point q it just happens this was a written statement with no sort of communications policy or thought process involved it was the president wants to put out a written statement mr stephanopoulos knowing what we knew at the time we thought it was appropriate for the president and he thought it was appropriate to put out a written statement expressing his regret and expressing his support for the attorney general s q why was it not appropriate for him to personally do something mr stephanopoulos well he did personally do so that is his statement it s a statement under his name q george yesterday during the briefing you didn t say the president took full responsibility for what happened mr stephanopoulos i certainly did q no what you said was mr stephanopoulos that s just not right susan q well i think you can go back to the transcript i mean unless i miss something mr stephanopoulos i d love to q janet reno said that she took full responsibility and you said that she made the decision that the fbi mr stephanopoulos and the president takes responsibility absolutely q took responsibility all right mr stephanopoulos check the transcript q considering how little was known about what was going on inside the compound and even now how little is known why is washington calling this a mass suicide mr stephanopoulos well i think that knowing what we know now and given all of the actions of david koresh before and during it is painfully clear that those there were under his control q it s stretching it a little bit where the kids are concerned though isn t it george mr stephanopoulos i think that that is an entirely different matter i mean i think that david koresh must bear responsibility for the deaths of those children absolutely but he clearly was intent on creating some kind of an apocalyptic incident and that s what he did q you re still operating completely on assumption right i mean you have no evidence or you know of no evidence that this was mass suicide mr stephanopoulos we have evidence that those inside the compound set fire to the compound which led to the deaths of those inside q i didn t quite hear it this might be ann s question i didn t quite hear it but at what time did clinton himself put out a statement on this i know dee dee said some stuff on this at p m but the president put out mr stephanopoulos at p m p m q right after the evening news went on the air mr stephanopoulos no right when we had all the information we were working on it q dee dee confirmed this morning that the investigation the president is going to announce is going to be an administration run investigation why not have someone from the outside to make sure that it s not colored by those who would have a political stake particularly those at the atf whose actions have already been mr stephanopoulos i think that clearly the atf and the justice department will bear responsibility for the investigation that s not to rule out as is often in investigations like this having some sort of independent involvement as well but it will be run by the treasury and justice q are you confident that you will not have any problem getting mr stephanopoulos absolutely q george did the president reach out to anybody else to get advice after the meeting with janet reno and who else in the white house sat in on that meeting anyone else from justice mr stephanopoulos i don t believe anybody else was there at the time it was a phone call on monday it wasn t a meeting q sunday mr stephanopoulos sunday it was a phone call it wasn t a meeting i believe he might have been there with bruce but beyond that i think he just talked to the attorney general q george you said that in that phone call she said that we want to go in and take action as you said that will force him out what did he think she was talking about if he didn t know about tear gas what exactly was his idea of what he was approving mr stephanopoulos i think he was approving an action to increase the pressure on q q it didn t matter how she did that mr stephanopoulos no no i mean q what information did he have in terms of how this would proceed presumably he would have wanted to know not minute by minute but in a general sense mr stephanopoulos i think he knew that this was the recommendation of those on the ground and the recommendation of the law enforcement agencies i just don t know q what is this when you say that this was the recommendation mr stephanopoulos the action to increase pressure i don t know exactly what he was told whether he was going to be told that the tank was going to go up to the left wall and punch a hole in the window or whether he was just told generally that they were moving forward in a way that would increase the pressure i just don t know q it s hard to imagine him not asking though q that janet reno presented him with as her best advice about what they should go forward with he would have agreed mr stephanopoulos he was he did ask some general questions about the advice and recommendation he gave at the same time and i would repeat that this was based on the unanimous recommendation of the law enforcement agencies involved q george it would seem that this question about just exactly in what detail the president was informed about the nature of the operation is going to come up again here and elsewhere can you take that question and mr stephanopoulos absolutely yes q get the answer and come back to us with all of it mr stephanopoulos yes q can you tell us that there was never a meeting a strategy session where you and others decided we will put out a written statement from the president and we will have janet reno be on all of these television broadcasts mr stephanopoulos never never q and you never called the justice department and said to anyone or janet reno you re the one who needs to be out front explaining this mr stephanopoulos not once q it just happened that way that she was the spokesman that no one ever saw bill sessions until mr stephanopoulos she made a decision as attorney general that it was important for her as the operational officer in charge as the person who made the decision to go out and take the questions on this tragic incident q she had no guidance from the white house at all mr stephanopoulos we certainly didn t object q but did you laughter no i m sure you didn t object but did you suggest it was this a plan mr stephanopoulos no absolutely not q a strategy mr stephanopoulos no q did she clear it mr stephanopoulos no q did she notify you mr stephanopoulos we certainly knew about it q what happened to this great detailed process you have for clearing and talking to every public information officer and every under every rock and every place in government that something as major as this could have occurred without a discussion between you and the public information people at least at the justice department mr stephanopoulos the attorney general made the decision and the attorney general wanted to go forward it seemed like a good decision it was a good decision she did a good job q let me ask it this way george if in hindsight how you would handle it mr stephanopoulos i think it was handled very well q you wouldn t change a thing if mr stephanopoulos change what q the way the white house handled any part of it from start to finish mr stephanopoulos well i think that s an awful broad question and we re certainly going to have a review one of the reasons for the investigation is to look for ways in the future that something like this see what we can learn from an incident like this and see what we can learn about how to handle them if you re talking specifically about the issue of the press conferences no there wouldn t make any change at all q two questions first of all on her going on tv no white house people or outside media consultants came up with this idea it s just very reminiscent of what you guys did during the campaign mr stephanopoulos how so q i m thinking of like watching clinton on nightline after the draft story watching clinton on mr stephanopoulos there s absolutely no comparison yesterday there was a law enforcement incident the incident ended in tragic deaths of many many people the attorney general was involved in that decision the attorney general made the decision to do that she felt it was her responsibility in the interest of public information to go out and take the questions of the press in order to make sure that all of the questions were answered and she did a fantastic job q the second question is did as someone who knows clinton as well as you do can you understand why it s sort of hard to believe that he might not have asked some detailed questions about what she intended to do in other words she came and she said i m going to put pressure on them it s hard not to see clinton who s fairly intelligent and inquisitive asking how q what kind mr stephanopoulos both the attorney general said that he did ask questions he did ask general questions i don t have a minute by minute account of the conversation q how long a conversation mr stephanopoulos i think it was about minutes q telephone conversation mr stephanopoulos yes q george was the federal cost of this standoff ever a consideration in terms of stepping up the pressure mr stephanopoulos i don t believe so no q george you keep saying that the president takes full responsibility but then you refer to it as her decision does the president not accept the fact that as commander in chief it is ultimately his decision mr stephanopoulos i don t know what this has to do with commander in chief this was a law enforcement action not a military action and he clearly takes responsibility for the decisions of the law enforcement agencies involved taken in his government i mean i think there s just no ambiguity about that q but is he accepting it as his decision as well as hers or is he saying it s her decision there s a difference mr stephanopoulos as a matter of fact it was her decision he did not object to that decision he clearly takes full responsibility q george this briefing has gone on just a little over minutes and as you can see a lot of things can be exchanged what exactly did they spend minutes talking about if it was just very general that s a long period of time in a phone conversation mr stephanopoulos it is an awful long phone conversation it was a very important phone conversation i think brit has asked that we take the question and i ve said that i would q one of the things reno said last night is that the buck stops here i think that was her direct quotation does the president agree with that in this case mr stephanopoulos the president says he accepts full responsibility i think what the attorney general was saying is that she made a decision that she s going to accept all the responsibility that comes to her and she s not shrinking from that at all but neither is the president q at any point in the conversation last night between the president and the attorney general or this morning did she ever offer her a resignation mr stephanopoulos not to my knowledge q even before the fire was out yesterday there were some republicans on capitol hill calling for an investigation is the white house at all concerned about the timing of those requests trying to make political hay out of this situation mr stephanopoulos no and i don t want to cast any questions about the motives of those who are requesting investigation we want an investigation and we ll have a full and complete investigation q in what forum will you answer brit s question will you put out a written statement will you the wires how will you answer the question that you ve taken mr stephanopoulos i m just not sure q george can you remind us what the president was doing all yesterday afternoon where he was and what meetings he was involved in mr stephanopoulos i ll have to try and remember he had a series of meetings with different members of the staff during the afternoon he was certainly monitoring the situation in waco and getting periodic reports on that as well he did see some on cnn as well i believe he saw a fair amount of the fbi press briefing as well q and those reports would have come to him from mack mclarty would they do you think mr stephanopoulos mack talked to him bruce talked to him i talked to him q george to follow helen s question in their conversation this morning did they discuss at all her statement last night in response to the question about whether she would resign did he say i don t know why you felt the need to say that i m here to reassure you that you don t have to do this did that come up at all mr stephanopoulos i don t know if it even came up that specifically i know that the bulk of the conversation was discussing where do we go from here and what form the investigation q the didn t talk at all about her kind of remarkable comment last night about mr stephanopoulos well i believe she was asked a question q and her response was if the president wants me to i will mr stephanopoulos which would be i think the standard response that most cabinet members would give i mean it s a conditional statement q have a need to talk about whether personally about whether the president wanted her mr stephanopoulos i don t know if they talked about it i mean what i learned about the conversation was that it was largely about the investigation itself and this just didn t come up i did not ask the question if they talked about q will you take that with the brit package mr stephanopoulos certainly laughter q george for the record does the president want her to resign i know dee dee answered this morning mr stephanopoulos absolutely not he supports janet reno she s a good attorney general she s done a good job she handled a difficult situation extremely well q george does the president feel that he and janet reno were let down by the unanimous professional advice from the law enforcement experts on the ground mr stephanopoulos no and the president is not second guessing that decision and those recommendations in any way that is not to say that he doesn t regret the loss of life everybody regrets the loss of life in this situation but the best judgments were made in a difficult situation based on the best information we had q george the minute conversation was the one on sunday is that correct mr stephanopoulos yes q how long was the one at a m yesterday morning mr stephanopoulos i don t know i ll take that question too q were these outside experts that they were consulting with or experts within the atf and the fbi mr stephanopoulos you d have to ask them i m just not sure i know that there were several experts q and also why weren t there replacements for these people is the unit that small mr stephanopoulos again i think it is a very small highly specialized unit but i think it s one of the kinds of things that the investigation will examine q george isn t there a factor here involving the fbi director normally a president when he wants to get information doesn t only asks the attorney general i know the chain of command but presidents talk to their fbi directors in this case throughout this entire siege he has not felt that he could pick up the phone and talk to bill sessions who is from waco and get expertise from him on what to do and what not to do mr stephanopoulos i think he talked to the fbi director well in the beginning of the situation when it first broke out in waco at the same time the attorney general bears the ultimate responsibility and he was getting fully briefed from the attorney general q don t you think the ambiguous situation that director sessions is in has some impact on the way the president is briefed and on the way that all of this evolved mr stephanopoulos not at all i mean it s perfectly appropriate that he be briefed by the attorney general and that the attorney general has supervisory authority over the fbi director and that s following the chain of command the press thank you end p m edt
talk.politics.misc	re waco burnout in article apr rigel tamu edu mst rigel tamu edu mitchell s todd writes in article visser convex convex com visser convex com lance visser writes i can t wait for the investigation considering that everyone is dead now and the place is burnt to the ground i guess honest citizens will just have to take the word of the atf about how much of a threat these people were just look at the history of koresh and his folowers they captured the mount carmel complex a few yearss ago in a gun battle with a rival bd sect leaving more than one person dead they weren t exactly the most peace loving bunch koresh some of his followers were tried and found innocent of all charges following that shootout were you unaware of this or did you purposly leave out this fact russ anderson disclaimer any statements are my own and do not reflect upon my employer or anyone else c ex twins jack morris innings pitched runs world series mvp
talk.politics.misc	f o cus health how u s compares from harelb math cornell edu misc activism progressive co moderator subject f o cus health how u s compares paid maternity leave f o cus health how u s compares paid maternity leave duration of nationally provided paid maternity leave in weeks country weeks country weeks united kingdom germany finland ireland denmark japan france spain italy netherlands norway sweden canada switzerland austria united states belgium source international labor organization work and family the child care challenge conditions of work digest vol february from page of we re number one where america stands and falls in the new world order by andrew l shapiro new york may vintage books a division of random house paperback isbn transcribed by jhwoodar well sf ca us joe woodard america is becoming a land of private greed and public squalor this book is an indispensable road map through the wreckage the facts it reveals will startle you they may depress you but ideally they ll fire you up to help rebuild this nation robert b reich author of the work of nations
talk.politics.misc	clinton remarks by the president teacher of the year award the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april remarks by the president during presentation of teacher of the year award the rose garden p m edt the president good afternoon please be seated i want to say first how delighted i am to be here with secretary riley and with senator graham the three of us served as governors together during the s when we worked constantly on strategies to improve our schools when we led often difficult and long efforts to upgrade the standards in american education and to improve the quality of instruction our children were receiving there were no two governors whom i admired more during that period than the two who now stand on this stage with the teacher of the year and i think both of them would join me in saying that after all the testimony has been heard and all the bills have been passed and the funds have been raised and allocated it all comes down to what happens between the teacher and the students in the classroom that s why today s ceremony honoring the national teacher of the year is so important tracey leon bailey is one recognition all across our country for highly advanced and innovative science programs he s developed and introduced into florida s classrooms cutting edge programs in molecular biology and dna fingerprinting subjects usually taught only in college and i might add probably only dimly understood here in the nation s capital laughter within three years of being hired by a satellite high school mr bailey s institution had one of the strongest science programs in the entire state of florida and it won numerous national and international awards these advanced programs aren t just for a favored few tracey bailey has inspired all kinds of students including those previously known as low achieving or at risk to reach for excellence and to attain it this is what our students need and what our country needs today we know that a good future with high wages and rich opportunities rests on the foundation of quality education for a lifetime the basics aren t enough anymore all our kids need competence in math and science and advanced problem solving that s why tracey bailey s accomplishments are so important and why i am so pleased and proud to participate in recognizing and honoring these accomplishments tracey you represent the best in the united states i m glad to recognize you today and to formally present you with this apple award as the teacher of the year for applause mr bailey thank you mr president it is indeed a great honor and a tremendous responsibility to represent the nation s million teachers and we appreciate the support that you have shown for education and we re looking forward to working with you to help redesign and improve our nation s schools we know that the quality of our children s education will directly impact the future of our economic and social landscape in the years to come and we thank you so much for your continued support and commitment to our children s education thank you again applause the president in closing i would like to also welcome the education leaders in florida who are here those representing the national education groups who have also come i d like to recognize tracey s congressman representative jim bacchus in the back himself a great advocate of education and i d like to remind all of you that the ultimate purpose of the national teacher of the year award is to find a way for the rest of us to express our appreciation to people all across this country who give their lives to our children all of the teachers of this country who get up every day and do their best to try to advance the cause of learning for all the children of america they are in so many ways our most important public servants thank you very much applause end p m edt
talk.politics.misc	waco burning it is interesting sometimes to listen to u s news as seen through the eyes of another country b b c world news service on short wave originating out of london reports that a survivor of the waco massacre states that a tank when making a hole in the wall of the building knocked over a kerosene lamp and that is how the fire started attempts were made by the people inside to put out the fire but it spread too quickly has anyone in u s heard anything similar or are u s government spin doctors censoring such information the b b c news is also reporting that about of those that died were british citizens
talk.politics.misc	re waco in a previous article ddn cbnews cb att com david d nason says give me a break give me a break chum are you telling me that clinton and reno did not know that the batf actions were illegal adn in violation of their warrant be part of the solution not the problem the problem is clinton you be part of him
talk.politics.misc	re waco burning in a previous article garrod dynamo ecn purdue edu david garrod says reports that a survivor of the waco massacre states that a tank when making a hole in the wall of the building knocked over a kerosene lamp and that is how the fire started attempts were made by the people inside to put out the fire but it spread too quickly this is pretty much what koresh s lawyers were told by the remaining survivors on larry king live in addition parts of the unsealed warrant were mentioned it surely sounds as if the batf were in violation from day one
talk.politics.misc	re waco burning garrod dynamo ecn purdue edu david garrod writes it is interesting sometimes to listen to u s news as seen through the eyes of another country b b c world news service on short wave originating out of london reports that a survivor of the waco massacre states that a tank when making a hole in the wall of the building knocked over a kerosene lamp and that is how the fire started attempts were made by the people inside to put out the fire but it spread too quickly has anyone in u s heard anything similar or are u s government spin doctors censoring such information it was on cbs yesterday the explanation is reasonable enough then again if the fire was accidental why didn t more people get out the b b c news is also reporting that about of those that died were british citizens that s true i think there were several australians in the group as well mitchell s todd mst zeus tamu edu
talk.politics.misc	phill says koresh hitler was welcome to police state usa hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes the murderes of four police officers to justice perhaps we could hear it they had a sure fire method keep them bottled up and talk them to death or surrender without giving him justification for some looney tune religious stunt phil i ve been reading your postings for months and i m convinced that you will back anything no matter how damaging it may be to yours or anyone else s rights if you think it will hurt people you don t like it s people with that attitude that set up the preconditions for the holocaust a process that is in place now in this country even if the tattered pitiful remains of the constitution is slowing its progress this isn t a libertarian issue others may argue that line but from a strictly constitutional view of a democratic gov t what the fbi and batf did was wrong wrong wrong even if their reasons for trying to arrest koresh were right anything that leads to the deaths of children if nothing else touches your stoney heart is wrong no matter who pushed the button for god s sake man get your morality back the person who murdered children was koresh he kept them there and brought about their deaths deliberately you may consider that i am a complete bastard and a not very nice chap thats quite true i don t pretend to be being nice is what amateurs try to do if you want to talk politics you are talking hard decisions such as whether the lives of the troops should be risked attempting to rescue the children anyone who has held the office of president of the united states since fdr has held the threat that if the usa or its allies were to be threatened then the usa would risk nuclear holocaust in order to protect freedom beleive it or not that is not the sort of threat that nice chaps make do they have a gun nutters section of the us version of cnd by any chance there are cases where society has to be protected from madmen such as koresh or hitler if it were not for the consideration of the children in there the question of the tactics to be used would not be a matter of anything but academic significance it is not for the govt to prevent people from commiting mass suicide the latest reports are that cult members were shot attempting to leave the compound by koresh loyalists during the fire if proven that would entail the final nail in the coffin of those who want to promote koresh as some sort of role model or hero i need hardly add that it is koresh that has created the holocaust in this case by the deliberate arson of the ranch appocalypse let me see if i got this right group of religious plinter schismatics erect a compound and after at least fifty years of peaceful co existance with the outside community having shoot outs only with each other this makes them dangerous prior history would seem to indicate they are only dangerous to themselves last i knew there was no national branch davidian party blaming the debacle in veitnam on foreign meddlers and three two beer calling for the rounding up of meat packers growers and slaughter houses you want tough political choices how about letting odd balls be odd balls i know this requires tolerance for those that go into government but we all know people who have no useful skills ith the death of the children everybody is getting real upset what about the other plus people i suppose that you consider children to be property of the state with the family as custodians in the states its the other way around children are parental property if what you consider a corrupt government demands that you send you children into their tender care i suppose that you will obey the state and turn you children over to their care sorry i am not as enamoured of the womb to tomb cradle that is ingsoc gotta go the beach is calling chus pyotr pyotr halcyon com sometimes pyotr filipivich sometimes owl april you realize that this makes twice in two months that the government had a perfect plan that went awry
talk.politics.misc	clinton fact sheet on russian statement the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april background information advancing u s relations with russia and the other new independent states april at the vancouver summit president clinton and president yeltsin agreed to pursue a number of measures designed to implement an economic and strategic partnership between the u s and russia since then president clinton has directed that a number of steps be taken to move this process forward the administration is announcing a number of steps today in order to underscore its deep commitment to a new and closer partnership with russia based on its government s commitment to reform executive review of cold war laws president clinton and president yeltsin discussed the desirability of reviewing and updating u s laws and regulations to reflect the end of the cold war congress has already acted to revise many laws to reflect the fact that a communist soviet union has been replaced by a democratic russia and other independent states however many laws and regulations remain that contain language and restrictions that fail to reflect the end of the cold war and that unnecessarily undermine relations with russia and the other new independent states the president today has ordered an executive review of laws and regulations so that where appropriate and consistent with u s security and other national interests such provisions can be revised or removed he has asked ambassador at large strobe talbott to coordinate this review on an expedited basis the president has indicated that he will welcome congressional efforts to help this review proceed as quickly as possible this review will weigh all considerations that pertain to revision of such provisions and the initiation of the review may help to remedy some of the circumstances that have justified such provisions in the past for example because the russians are eager to have their status changed under the jackson vanik legislation president yeltsin personally assured president clinton in vancouver that he would look into individual cases involving continuing restrictions on emigration from russia by addressing such issues this review can help strengthen the bonds of trust and partnership between the u s and russia and between the u s and the other new independent states review of cocom it is also time to consider expeditiously with america s allies the future of another cold war institution the coordinating committee for multilateral export controls cocom the united states has begun a thorough review of how to reorient export controls to the post cold war world in which russia is no longer viewed as a potential adversary but as a potential ally in combatting the proliferation of sensitive technology steps to improve the security relationship the president also has taken steps to move ahead on a range of efforts discussed in vancouver that can strengthen u s security and improve our security relationship with the russians and the other states accelerated deactivation of nuclear weapons in vancouver the two presidents discussed accelerating the process of deactivating nuclear strategic systems scheduled for elimination under the start i treaty president clinton has directed the department of defense to complete this process well in advance of the seven year reduction period outlined in start i in addition the united states together with russia and the other relevant states of the former soviet union will be exploring programs under nunn lugar to help them to accelerate this process multilateral test ban the two presidents agreed at vancouver that negotiations on a multilateral nuclear test ban should commence at an early date and that the two governments would consult with each other accordingly the united states looks forward to beginning consultations with russia our allies and other states on the specific issues related to this negotiation the united states expects to start this consultative process within the next two months detargeting the two presidents also began a dialogue on the issue of nuclear targeting at vancouver as the united states and russia move into a new relationship of strategic partnership there is a need to reexamine many of the assumptions and means employed in the past to safeguard u s security against a nuclear adversary the administration is beginning a comprehensive review of measures that could enhance strategic stability including recent proposals for detargeting nuclear missiles other measures to create a new security relationship in response to the incident involving a collision between us and russian submarines last month secretary aspin will be ready to discuss ways to avoid such incidents in the future with russian defense minister grachev during his visit to the united states in late may secretary aspin will also be prepared to move forward with defense minister grachev in may to develop a combined training program between our two military forces and to prepare for joint exercises in peacekeeping such as that authorized by the un security council the united states looks forward to broadening such training and exercises to include other peacekeeping contributors in order to improve inter operability readiness and planning for multilateral peacekeeping operations the us and russia are working together to convene a may ministerial meeting of the un security council to discuss proposals for enhancing the un s peacekeeping capability and to move consideration of the secretary general s agenda for peace from the discussion to the implementation phase the u s is also working with the russians to focus specifically on improvements in the financing and management of un operations the purpose of these initiatives will be to cooperate on peacekeeping for our participation in un or csce sponsored actions multilateral and bilateral partnership with reform finally the administration continues to move ahead on a range of initiatives aimed at striking a partnership with economic and political reformers throughout russia and the other states the administration is continuing work with our g partners to assemble the package of multilateral assistance that secretaries bentsen and christopher recently negotiated in tokyo and the administration is continuing consultation with congress over the further efforts the u s will take to assist the process of reform in russia and the other states the administration believes these steps can increase american security while improving the relationship between the u s and russia and between the u s and the other new independent states
talk.politics.misc	re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate misc legal trimmed in article c uqsm i encore com rcollins ns encore com roger collins writes let me explain some possible means to libertarian style government one last time if the dominate philosophy of a society held that it was ok to kill your neighbor for sport no government system except a strong tyranny by the minority could keep the people from killing each other the dominate philosophy in our society holds that it is ok for people to steal and coerce each other as long as it s done by vote or through the government machine libertarians realize what this legal stealing and coercion does to a society so just as a society of non murderers would not vote for the right to murder a society of non coercers would not vote for the ability to coerce if libertarianism became the dominate philosophy the people would do a good job of restraining government to the extent that libertarianism was dominate so means is educating the people to become libertarian well that s the obvious conclusion given your train of logic the corollary then is that it must be a waste of time for the party to run candidates until the educational program has shown some results followups to a p l cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.misc	re waco is gov t fault was re libertarian party on cia fbi atf in article c wkyg fy dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes they raided an american s property because of rumors about koresh s intentions with some converted yet still nd amendment protected firearms a judge approved warrant justifies nothing in a democracy under the rule of law a search warrant justifies a search and this search procedure must also follow the rule of law the us constitution does not justify murder of those attempting to mount a search for illegally held weapons it may if necessary when the search is executed in an illegal and violent fashion the govt has a right to use lethal force in certain cases attempts to capture dangerous criminals who are armed and threatening the lives of others is one these criminals were threatening the lives of no one they were fired on first according to a number of accounts in this case they used sub lethal force wrong firing a gun at someone is lethal force even if no one is hit of course they did hit and kill people the children were held hostage the adults were wanted variously for murder and conspiracy to murder you are silly there are no such warrants in existence phill it took hundreds of gov t agents with tax funded cellular phones ten minutes to dial for the fire department they should not have called the fire dept at all there was no role for them to play in a situation where those that might be rescued might well shoot at them calling the fire dept meant that waco was deprived of a resource that might have been needed elsewhere should a situation where it could have been used arisen thanks phill for another example of that great socialist sensitivity obey the government or die plonk cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.misc	re waco burnout rja mahogany cray com russ anderson writes in article apr rigel tamu edu mst rigel tamu edu mitchell s todd writes in article visser convex convex com visser convex com lance visser writes i can t wait for the investigation considering that everyone is dead now and the place is burnt to the ground i guess honest citizens will just have to take the word of the atf about how much of a threat these people were just look at the history of koresh and his folowers they captured the mount carmel complex a few yearss ago in a gun battle with a rival bd sect leaving more than one person dead they weren t exactly the most peace loving bunch koresh some of his followers were tried and found innocent of all charges following that shootout were you unaware of this or did you purposly leave out this fact the fact is that koresh and his followers involved themselves in a gun battle to control the mt carmel complex that is not in dispute from what i remember of the trial the authories couldn t reasonably establish who fired first the big reason behind the aquittal mitchell s todd mst zeus tamu edu
talk.politics.misc	re not talking to soldiers part ii in article c trfx b csulb edu sichermn beach csulb edu jeff sicherman writes janet some advice go with the seals delta force green berets next time and talk nicely to the generals this might be illegal without a very specific presidential declaration or even a change in law in general sic u s military troops are not permitted to be used for domestic policing operations do you mean besides the national guard outside of military reservations besides national emergencies brett there s nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction sean o casey in the white plague by frank herbert
talk.politics.misc	waco do all those who are saying the government is responsible for the death of those in the compound also say that the isrealis are responsible for the death of the isreali athletes at the olympics hey the palestinians and the dividians could have given up peacefully yeah and monkey could fly out my butt wayne richard
talk.politics.misc	re waco burnout doesn t seem like those responsible for the assault were very concerned about the welfare of the children inside seems like they were more interested in flexing their muscle before the media my reasoning just ask yourself this one question suppose the scenario was slightly different and we had chelsea clinton being kidnapped by terrorists holed up in a compound for days do you think clinton reno the fbi and the atf would be so eager to use a show of force nuff said richard mulac ck cleveland freenet edu well judging by his outlandish attire he s some sort these pontifications of free thinking anarchist charles montgomery burns are my own
talk.politics.misc	re janet reno killed the waco children in article r pn nap lll winken llnl gov ed wente llnl gov ed suranyi writes this too is ridiculous in no way can the provoker be considered to have played more than an exceedingly minor role a person who kills is ultimately responsible for his own actions finally someone seems to be making sense in this thread alan
talk.politics.misc	re janet reno killed the waco children in article fern camelot fern camelot bradley edu jill rosencrans writes in apr ncsu edu dsh eceyv ncsu edu doug holtsinger writes janet reno killed the waco children she is responsible for their deaths she should resign immediately she should have understood that david koresh was a madman who would do anything against the children if he became provoked all the warning signs were there and she ignored them she provoked koresh into killing the children she provoked koresh excuse me but david koresh killed the inhabitants of that compound not a gov t official these people were controlled by koresh he killed them a long time ago when he refused to release the children and other hostages as you call them in your comparison this is the first i hear that koresh refused to release someone in fact a lot of people including children came out during the stand off how do you know koresh killed his followers the fbi said he had had no such plans and they had the place bugged koresh s attorney said the same thing and the survivors claimed that the fire was started by goverment agents disclaimer opinions expressed are mine not my employer s
talk.politics.misc	re waco burning in article r bh cc nwfocus wa com turmoil halcyon com tim crowley writes goykhman apollo hp com red herring writes in article bb ef v a vm temple edu v a vm temple edu richard hoenes writes yes we ve heard that the survivors are now saying that we ve also seen the videotape which shows that the fire started in two or three different places which weren t near the tank i have not seen the tape on cnn which network did you see it on i saw the film on cnn as it happend it was clear from that tape that the fire started in one location right where the tank was attacking and then had pulled back no this is not true the cnn pictures show two sites clearly and a third is barely distinguished if you have a tape you should note that there are two towers at either end of the building a big one and a little one what appears to be merely a long shot of the big tower with the tank in front is in fact the little tower you can tell beacuse the flag in the foreground switches sides from the right of the picture to the left the third site is visible as the flames clearly come from a point obscured by the small tower you need a tape and a good slow motion video to see this phill hallam baker
talk.politics.misc	re waco survivors april in article apr e big mko dec com busta kozmic enet dec com writes in article c segz mwr dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes in article apm apr hpopdlau pwd hp com apm hpopdlau pwd hp com andrew merritt writes path dscomsa dxcern mcsun uknet pipex uunet think com sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com apm from apm hpopdlau pwd hp com andrew merritt in article apr vms ocom okstate edu chorley vms ocom okstate edu writes unrelated text deleted what exactly are you trying to say and why were there no fire engines within a mile of the compound because the gun loonies were firing on vehicles with mm amunition that has a range of meters what crap phil mm wrong to give you a clue as to how big mm is the f fighter aircraft have mm gattling guns used to shoot down other aircraft a mm gun would be somewhere in the cannon realm they might have had calibre but definitely not mm i think that phil needs to get out a ruler and see exactly how big mm rounds are roughly diameter the type of stuff used in anti aircraft gunnery calibre is much smaller but the m effective range mi sounds about right maybe he just got the two confused the fbi s reasoning was sound but the note from ph b was factually wrong tom h paul r busta busta kozmic enet dec com salem n h those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable tom hyatt i m a diehard saints fan so i ve thyat sdf lonestar org suffered quite enough thank you arlington tx help i m being repressed m python
talk.politics.misc	re waco investigation paranoia in bb b a v a vm temple edu v a vm temple edu richard hoenes writes can people please stop the i think know the batf fbi are completely responsible but they ll cover it up so that the investigation will show that koresch is responsible bs in an investigation of this size with the feds state and civilians involved in the investigation it would be practially impossible to cover up the place has burned to the ground the fbi and company have the whole area cordoned off and have already arrested reporters for being at the site and taking pictures all your going to get in terms of a story is what the fbi atf and the texas rangers decide to release and with republicans like arlen spector calling for investigations this isn t going to be handled with kid gloves when the philadephia cops dropped their bomb on move and managed to burn down an entire neighborhood many people said the same thing dead men and rubble tell no tales that the police dont want them to tell you can judge the real political mood on this from the fact that congressperson pat scroder is a supporter of the fbi s actions she was on television this week saying that the cost of the operation in waco was a valid reason for the storming and gassing of the compound
talk.politics.misc	the government is lying yesterday the fbi was saying that at least three of the bodies had gunshot wounds indicating that they were shot trying to escape the fire today s paper quotes the medical examiner as saying that there is no evidence of gunshot wounds in any of the recovered bodies at the beginning of this siege it was reported that while koresh had a class iii machine gun license today s paper quotes the government as saying no they didn t have a license today s paper reports that a number of the bodies were found with shoulder weapons next to them as if they had been using them while dying which doesn t sound like the sort of action i would expect from a suicide our government lies as it tries to cover over its incompetence and negligence why should i believe the fbi s claims about anything else when we can see that they are lying this system of government is beyond reform clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article apr galileo cc rochester edu as b uhura cc rochester edu tree of schnopia writes in optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article esun gdc com piatt gdc com gary piatt writes ahh what s good for the goose is not necessarily what s good for the gander you don t want homosexuals to impose their moral codes such diabolical ideas as equal rights on you yet you are willing to impose your moral codes on them do i detect a double standard garison what do you mean if adults want to get together for sodomy in private that s their business and that s precisely what they do so what s your problem with the queer population boyo the only difference between us is what we do in private who we love bi andrew d simchik schnopia do it in private and it won t be a problem but the reason that the homosexual activists are so hot on antidiscrimination laws is that they want to be able to wear that lovely chiffon evening gown to work and not have people get disgusted to be able to wear their nambla t shirt and not worry about getting fired to be able to have access to young boys so that they start making the next generation of homosexuals if your right to privacy is what makes sodomy laws unconstitutional a position that i agree with then keep it private and there won t be a problem clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re freedom of association from article pdb kilimanjaro jpl nasa gov by pdb ipl jpl nasa gov paul bartholomew in article philc v vo ju netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone wrote a very well put together post i disagree with several key points but the post is an excellent one with which to engage in discourse i agree wholeheartedly paul you have handled this so well i think that you could write ballot materials thank you i d hoped to avoid the rancor that has characterized much of the debate on this issue i m also not going to prolong the debate on this i wanted to respond to a couple of the points you make but this will be my last posting on this no don t stop right to equal opportunity lets call it reo involves coercion in all cases by definition one question is it your position that there is no reo or just that this is a lesser right to foa good question it just depends how s that for an answer seriously i believe that it depends on wether or not you are talking about a governmental employer or not in this case i believe that there should be absolutely no discrimination direct or indirect period i feel this way not because it would offend my moral sensibilities which it of course would but because the government is a coercive entity which we cannot escape it boggles my mind that in my lifetime there were whites only drinking fountains in some parks but no fountains for others yet the taxes garnished to support those fountains certainly were not applied to whites only in essence we cannot escape the coercive state even randy weavers have to pay property tax on the other hand private employers are not a monopoly and their businesses should be run by them and not by the government unless they elect to turn their affairs over to that government why says who why can mom pop have foa but ibm be forced and force is the correct word here to have reo in the case of the mom pop store their foa is directly affected they as individuals will have to associate with whomever they hire in the case of ibm i ask again whose foa are we protecting i do not accept that ibm as a corporate entity has a right to foa but if the mom pop store is affected by who they hire isn t ibm there is a slippery slope here in santa cruz where a number of loony anti discrimination laws exist a guy sued a restaurant for not hiring him because he had every imaginable kitchen utensil dangling from his earlobe and his tatoos were very distracting suddenly by arm waving by magic a landlord does not have foa and on what basis does the foa of the landlord disappear it seems that vague terms like no contact with tenants suffice on the basis that the landlord has no contact with his her tenants if the landlord doesn t associate with his tenants then how can he complain that his foa is being violated i have a lot of interaction all positive with my tenants so i guess that that isn t an issue but say i were to buy a unit in another town and have it managed by a third party let s say that i have a real aversion to christians because of the stuff that they buy into hook line and sinker and because of the lunatic schmucks that they try to get elected i don t want any of those fish symbols hanging in the window of a house that i own should the government intervene if i was elie weizel and the only rental applicant was tom metzger should i be forced to rent this distant unit to him the companies on the fortune for example are all privately owned they can give you a list of all of their owners they have no anonymous unknown to them owners publicly owned in the sense that their stock is publicly traded and that the shares of stock are owned by a generic and ever changing public yes and the neat thing about this is that unlike the mom pop store you and i can buy shares in ibm and have influence over their decision making policies if we don t like them anyway paul keep up the good work mark walsh walsh optilink uucp uunet optilink walsh amateur radio km xu wx k aol bigcookie aol com uscf l what me worry william m gaines i m gonna crush you andre the giant
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article c w cb ct rahul net starowl rahul net michael d adams writes on apr gmt theodore a kaldis observed alyoung kiwi ucs indiana edu amy lynn young leith writes can someone tell me why when mr cramer spouts on about homosexuals he only addresses homosexual men and never in any post i ve read addressed lesbians i can t really speak for mr cramer here but i can say that a homosexual male is an entirely different animal than a lesbian there is virtually nothing that is analogous or related between the aberrant behaviors practiced by these two groups of deviants the last time i checked homosexual men and women were both human i think mr kaldis was using the expression in the slang sense though i agree it is not an appropriate expression to use in this context they both prefer to engage in sexual acts with people of the same gender there is nothing inherently wrong with the trademark behaviour of either homosexual men or homosexual women except in the minds of misinformed folk clueless folk and bigots so what makes homosexual men and homosexual women different animals michael d adams starowl a i rahul net enterprise alabama that homosexual men are extremely promiscuous and homosexual women are if any more promiscuous than heterosexual women it s not by much that homosexual men are overrepresented among child molesters about of child molestation is done by homosexual or bisexual men while homosexual women don t appear to be similarly over represented clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article c wa d iva murdoch acc virginia edu lfoard hopper virginia edu lawrence c foard writes in article apr romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes in article apr news cs indiana edu alyoung kiwi ucs indiana edu amy lynn young leith writes can someone tell me why when mr cramer spouts on about homosexuals he only addresses homosexual men and never in any post i ve read addressed lesbians i can t really speak for mr cramer here but i can say that a homosexual male is an entirely different animal than a lesbian there is virtually nothing that is analogous or related between the aberrant behaviors practiced by these two groups of deviants so it has nothing to do with your morals its just that you wouldn t have anything to wack off to if you didn t have tapes of lesbians going at it i think we are getting closer to the truth now no we are getting at mr foard s sickness this may surprise homosexuals but lots of people in this country do not spend their time watching pornography and masturbating some of us have real lives instead of sexual compulsions but i don t expect a homosexual to understand that clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article apr cs nott ac uk eczcaw mips nott ac uk c wainwright writes in article apr romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes in article apr news cs indiana edu alyoung kiwi ucs indiana edu amy lynn young leith writes can someone tell me why when mr cramer spouts on about homosexuals he only addresses homosexual men and never in any post i ve read addressed lesbians i can t really speak for mr cramer here but i can say that a homosexual male is an entirely different animal than a lesbian there is virtually nothing that is analogous or related between the aberrant behaviors practiced by these two groups of deviants obviously a homosexual male is of the xy chromosome pair and the lesbian is of xx besides what does that have to do with the price of eggs since mr cramer is very straight he most probably gets off to the thought of lesbians like the majority of adolescent males the views expressed herein are theodore a kaldis adda wainwright does dim atal y llanw o i hate to disappoint you but that s not the case i don t get off on lesbian sex nor am i an adolescent now when i was an adolescent i believed that homosexuals were just like everyone else but i ve learned since then clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re waco clinton press conference part in article apr edt neat cs toronto edu quoctp cs toronto edu quoc tuan pham writes did anyone notice that clinton was smiling and making jokes just before this press conference considering the number of people killed this seems very inappropriate to me why he reno and the fbi got what they wanted a reminder of who is the boss in america the thugs who work for the government clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article apr galileo cc rochester edu as b uhura cc rochester edu tree of schnopia writes in optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes i used to think that homosexuals were ok but havng now gotten a chance through usenet to know quite a few i ve realized that i was misled in my youth homosexuals are vicious screwed up often really evil people that s a load of shit if you really have the naivete to believe that the bozos over on soc motss characterize our entire populace you need to live a little try soc bi for example you ll find almost exclusively a bunch of yet the characteristics of soc motss fit quite well with the other evidence that is available high promiscuity child sexual abuse history support for child molestation advocacy groups like nambla s m etc well adjusted friendly humanistic people and in any case i think you ll find that most people are quite different from the persona they present on usenet for all i know you re a wonderful enlightened human being taking the role of hatemonger for satirical effect somehow i doubt it though hatemonger someone who reminds people of why homosexuals are dying in such large quantities of aids because their sexual compulsions prevented them from keeping their number of sexual partners below four digits i ve got a few clues for you a i m not working to pass any laws b it s being done in your name and that makes it my responsibility i see suppose i kill someone in the name of clayton cramer how does that make you a murderer if i know about it and don t express my disapproval it certainly would make you suspicious about me wouldn t it my morals aren t yours i wouldn t march in a parade with a group that advocates child molestation it doesn t stop homosexuals i wouldn t march in a parade with a group like that either and if you re talking about nambla i think you ll find that they do not advocate child molestation i also think you ll find that the vast majority of homosexuals they advocate sex between adults and children with no lower limit on age but that s right homosexuals don t believe that an adult sodomizing a five year old is child molestation will have no truck with that group anyway fooled me they march in a number of gay parades around the country clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all but not between members of the same sex right how can you live with such hypocrisy bi andrew d simchik schnopia sure whatever consenting adults want to do in private is none of the government s business you are the ones that want more laws telling me what to do in private quit lumping me in with groups the fact is that homophobia is an evil unjustified prejudice just like racism or sexism you can t reject all but one of those drewcifer it is nothing like racism or sexism you choose to be a homosexual my distaste for homosexuality is because of what homosexuals do clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article apr galileo cc rochester edu as b uhura cc rochester edu tree of schnopia writes in optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes sigh you re absolutely right we have no political power whatsoever if only that were true in california homosexuals have enough power to impose their morals on others the only moral we re imposing is one which you supposedly embrace already every human being s right to be treated as such i don t expect to be hired based on my sexual orientation if someone decides he wants a gay only staff of employees that s his business i won t force him to hire heterosexuals please don t force me to hire homosexuals therefore we should be oppressed and ignored and denigrated right i you aren t oppressed in california but it s ok to oppress us that s what you re saying no i m saying it s none of the government s business what two consenting adults do in private you don t believe that unfortunately certainly hope you don t have an so sir because if she heard how disparaging you are towards political minorities and if she had any shred of self respect she d be out the door why do you keep insulting women and blacks by comparing them to homosexuals this sort of crap makes me so fucking sick that i can t even bring myself to touch it you re a fuckwit with no perspective no valid life experience and no true knowledge of the human condition i see no point in trying to convince you politely that we re not all like the ones you ve met because you re showing no willingness at all to be open minded enough to accept that your stupid generalizations have exceptions you are an intellectual waste and the reason you believe the worst of homosexuals is that you bring out the worst in them bi andrew d simchik schnopia and you are yet another reminder of the emotional instability of homosexuals clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	why didn t they come out after the initial gun battle was over they had days to come out peacefully they had their high priced lawyer and judging by the posts here they had some public support can anyone come up with a rational explanation why the didn t come out even after they negotiated coming out after the radio sermon that doesn t include the davidians wanting to commit suicide murder general mayhem richard
talk.politics.misc	re janet reno killed the waco children in article apr ncsu edu dsh eceyv ncsu edu doug holtsinger writes janet reno killed the waco children she is responsible for their deaths she should resign immediately she should have understood that david koresh was a madman who would do anything against the children if he became provoked all the warning signs were there and she ignored them she provoked koresh into killing the children janet reno the fbi et al were nothing but pawns in koresh s game he was a madman who was going to hurt the children and everyone else in the compound no matter what the fbi did the situation in waco was similar to a hostage situation with a madman holding a gun against the head of an innocent person in such a situation a person who provokes the madman and causes him to pull the gun s trigger is responsible for the death of the hostage janet reno blindly stumbled in there and basically threw a tear gas container at the madman hoping that he would release the hostage it s no surprise that the madman would pull the trigger in response to that kind of provocation such a hostage situation has taken place on numerous occasions with the result of the police trying to take the place by force and the result being the death of the hostages and the gunmen however this is the first time i ve heard of the blame landing squarely on the police in this country we have a policy of not negotiating a back down from terrorists and hostage takers since that only encourages other terrorists and hostage takers richard
talk.religion.misc	re new religion forming sign up yawn the church of kibology did it first and better
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee writes armed to the teeth a christian should not have to rely on physical weapons to defend himself a christian should rely on his faith and intelligence faith and intelligence tell me that when a druggie breaks into my house at night with a knife to kill me for the in my wallet a is considerably more persuasive than having devotions with him tom albrecht
talk.religion.misc	satan here is someones biblical claim for the characteristics of satan this is probably the portion of scripture that you were talking about isaiah this does speak of the morning star which according to you is the babylonian prince ok so i turn your attention to daniel this passage concerns a revelation of prophecy to daniel by the messenger from god within this passage the messenger from god speaks of how he fought for weeks against the prince of the persian kingdom obviously this prince was not an earthly prince this prince of the persian kingdom is probably one of the demons in satan s hierarchy as such the morning star can be the prince of babylon w ho can also be satan another passage concerning satan s fall from heaven is ezekiel and separately devil chose to try to become greater than god he wanted to sit on god s throne when the devil was created he was one of the most beautiful angels in heaven we have here three distinct claims concerning the results of the devil s decision making a specific desire and a physical description now in support aside from the minor detail that an author seldom writes an unbiased account of the opposition we see isaiah isa how art thou fallen from heaven o lucifer son of the morning how art thou cut down to the ground which didst weaken the nations isa for thou hast said in thine heart i will ascend into heaven i will exalt my throne above the stars of god i will sit also upon the mount of the congregation in the sides of the north isa i will ascend above the heights of the clouds i will be like the most high isa yet thou shalt be brought down to hell to the sides of the pit doesn t say sits on god s throne says will exhault throne above the stars daniel dan then said he unto me fear not daniel for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand and to chasten thyself before thy god thy words were heard and i am come for thy words dan but the prince of the kingdom of persia withstood me one and twenty days but lo michael one of the chief princes came to help me and i remained there with the kings of persia dan now i am come to make thee understand what shall be fall thy people in the latter days for yet the vision is for many days see who is being discussed ezekiel eze son of man take up a lamentation upon the king of tyrus and say unto him thus saith the lord god thou sealest up the sum full of wisdom and perfect in beauty eze thou hast been in eden the garden of god every pre cious stone was thy covering the sardius topaz and the dia mond the beryl the onyx and the jasper the sapphire the em erald and the carbuncle and gold the workmanship of thy ta brets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created eze thou art the anointed cherub that covereth and i have set thee so thou wast upon the holy mountain of god thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire eze thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created till iniquity was found in thee eze by the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence and thou hast sinned therefore i will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of god and i will destroy thee o covering cherub from the midst of the stones of fire eze thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness i will cast thee to the ground i will lay thee before kings that they may behold thee eze thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities by the iniquity of thy traffick therefore will i bring forth a fire from the midst of thee it shall devour thee and i will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee eze all they that know thee among the people shall be as tonished at thee thou shalt be a terror and never shalt thou be any more anyone else to make a claim about the characteristics of the devil
talk.religion.misc	on line copy of book of mormon can anyone provide me a ftp site where i can obtain a online version of the book of mormon please email the internet address if possible william h moore advanced decision systems division of booz allen hamilton software engineer plymouth street net wmoore ads com mountain view ca
talk.religion.misc	on line book of mormon newsgroups talk religion misc subject on line copy of book of mormon summary distribution usa organization advanced decision systems mtn view ca keywords bom book of mormon mormon can anyone provide me a ftp site where i can obtain a online version of the book of mormon please email the internet address if possible william h moore advanced decision systems division of booz allen hamilton software engineer plymouth street net wmoore ads com mountain view ca
talk.religion.misc	re rosicrucian order s sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes anyway i don t have anything against amorc i just wanted to point out that secret organizations are lead by human beings and we all know what that means i had an ehum interesting experience with the rosicrucians or at least rosicrucians of some sort last sunday they had advertised that they were holding a lecture titled the graal of the king the room of the heart which rhymes in swedish out of curiosity i went to the lecture there were four people there apart from the two rosicrucians one woman and two men apart from me the rosicrucians were male both of them first one of them told us about the rosicrucians and lectorium rosicrucianum which was founded in harlem nl in he read straight from a piece of paper which i at that point was because he lacked experience in talking in front of people but the other guy read too and he was used to holding speeches i could tell the first guy also said that the r s are a mystical christian order and that they base their teachings on the teachings of the kathars english from the thirteenth century the other guy took over reading from his piece of paper in a fairy tale teller s voice what he said sounded like a load of crap to me of course that might be because i am unenlightened or something what made me a bit suspicious was the way they first said that we all contained something divine and could find our way back to divinity then that we couldn t become divine as the persons we are currently but if we worked really hard we would reach eternal bliss maybe i ve read too much raw but it sounded very much like the things he talks about in the chapter how to robotize people and brainwash your friends in prometheus rising it was very interesting to watch the two rosicrucians the one holding the actual lecture obviously was top dog and the other one seemed to be a true believer i got the impression that the top dog had more distance to the faith than the true believer that he used it to gain power and admiration he spoke like a fairy tale teller whenever he remembered the information brochure is at home should you want their address please e mail me ceci ceci lysator liu se men jag tycker nd att emacs r ett hyfsat os lars willfoer still i think emacs is a fairly good operating system
talk.religion.misc	re christian meta ethics i wrote and who is to say that this interpretation is twisted there are many passages in the bible that in their most straightforward reading show the christian god behaving in just this way in article r c c cass ma bull com ddavis cass ma bull com dave davis writes this requires the assumption that all interpretations are equally valid that there is no way of reasonably distinguishing among them i wouldn t make that assumption i don t think it is a reasonable assumption no it follows from the fact that most christians choice of interpretation stems from a mix of beliefs that are influenced by the secular ethics of their culture and that are not fully determined by scripture whether or not there is some right interpretation matters not few christians claim the ability to read the mind of their god dave davis should note that it was michael who first stated the importance of secular and cultural influence in this thread i think michael is right in this but regardless it should be noted that this has not been a point of contention between michael and myself i have argued beyond michael s claims that the christian scriptures are open to so many interpretations including a wide divergence within the christian tradition that even their most important themes are vague again it does not matter that there is some right interpretation unless there is a way to determine what that right interpretation is it is the lack of an objective measure not the presumed lack of an answer that puts the force behind the line i argue michael and i and others read the bible with christian glasses among the things that this should imply is that the nt informs the ot even to the point of dominanting it some points in the ot ceremonial dietary laws are explicitly abrogated by the nt texts there are enough christian glasses varying over a sufficiently broad range of color that i can find a few that support my example no michael the conservative christians also take the gospel seriously what differentiates you is the way you interpret the gospel russell turpin s no here is misplaced not to say inappropriate michael s self description must govern the equation of radical liberal which seems implied by russell turpin is wrong in my opinion what makes michael radical is that he fully acknowledges that christian scripture and tradition fail to determine the doctrines that so many branches within christianity hold dear he is willing to live and practice his religion within this indeterminacy and he is willing to acknowledge that much of his understanding of things christian is influenced by ideas that are not purely christian those christians i have called conservative must also interpret but they do not recognize or at least are unwilling to admit the extent and importance of this russell turpin in an earlier post had said that michael michael s theological positions actually didn t tell him much about christianity dean simeon responds this time gently what do you mean more direct perhaps would have been what could you possibly mean the implied rhetorical effort to separate michael from the tradition is a failure michael is in the tradition if your idea of the tradition doesn t include him change your idea of the tradition i recognize that michael is part of the tradition but what does it tell one about a tradition covering origen aquinas jerry fallwell and jesse jackson that it also includes michael siemon not very much in short it is the extra christian principles that make michael s christianity beneficial and i suspect they would be as beneficial perhaps moreso without being filtered by christian interpretation this conclusion does not follow even in short from the argument that goes before a surprising logical ellipsis i think the conclusion does follow the purely christian principles that michael has are the ones he shares with others in the christian tradition or that can be derived from christian scripture these necessarily vague are not enough to drive his political stances that one should love one s neighbor is a purely christian principle that this means showing tolerance for homosexuality is not as to these political stances they are often at odds with what is commonly held in most of current christendom and so i suspect they could be better pressed outside it on the other hand i can well understand the counterpoint that these political stances become most influential when presented to those who need them most this is a theological statement worthy of barth dr turpin dd may wear the black robe of geneva yet having barely survived the effort to finish in computer science i doubt i will attempt a more difficult field any time soon russell
talk.religion.misc	re a kind and loving god mlee ra royalroads ca malcolm lee writes these laws written for the israelites god s chosen people whom god had expressly set apart from the rest of the world the israelites were a direct witness to god s existence to disobey god after knowing that god is real would be an outright denial of god and therefore immediately punishable remember these laws were written for a different time and applied only to god s chosen people but jesus has changed all of that we are living in the age of grace sin is no longer immediately punishable by death there is repentance and there is salvation through our lord jesus christ and not just for a few chosen people salvation is available to everyone jew and gentile alike sorry if this is late for the thread but i thought god was supposed to be constant and never changing how do you reconcile this common christian view with the paragraph above also while we re at it how do you reconcile a kind and loving god with the judeo christian view that sin was at one time immediately punishable by death was killing people for sinning god s way of showing kindness and love is the fact the he no longer does this an admission on his part of having made a mistake now that we are living in the age of grace does this mean that for our sins god now damns us to eternal hell after we die rather than killing us immediately if so is this eternal damnation an example of a kind and loving god just curious dave wood
talk.religion.misc	re jewish history question in article cocoac ug q ksb netcom com cocoa netcom com writes in article apr csi uottawa ca misrael csi uottawa ca mark israel writes in article cocoac e y netcom com cocoa netcom com little e writes deleted here tis someone just told me that the old testament books were translated into greek a long time ago yes that s a famous version called the septuagint it was a translation made by greek jews and that the originals were destroyed in a fire soon afterward no i don t know what you re referring to here when the jersusalem temple was destroyed some manuscripts may have been lost but i think our extant hebrew manuscripts are as good as our greek ones i don t know about any originals the person who was telling me about the septuagint version said that the greeks had a wonderful library in alexandria that was full of manuscripts scrolls and that it was burned soon after the septuagint version was translated perhaps to conceal some changes in the different versions or perhaps just as part of the typical burning of valuable things that occurs during changes in power groups he i dunno no the library at alexandria was perhaps the greatest library ever built in the world the greeks had a love of wisdom philo sophos and this great love was reflected in the alexandrian library the christians got a hold of it and began modifying and purging texts and then the moslems invaded and either the christians burned the library to keep it from falling into moslems hands far more likely since they were the book burners not the moslems or it burned in the sack of the city or the moslems burned it either way a tremendous amount of information was lost the destruction of the library of alexandria was probably one of the greatest crimes of man against man so i was just wondering since i imagine some jewish people somewhere must have had copies of the earlier hebrew versions is the hebrew version of the old testament very different from the greek derived version no there are a few famous discrepancies isaiah s prophecy about a young woman was changed into a virgin which was how the new testament writers read it but not many actually the hebrew almah young woman was translated as the hellenistic greek parthenos which may or may not be correctly translated into the modern and technical english term virgin the jews did not have the type of virginity cult that the greco romans had in artemis and diana well perhaps this is the answer then deleted if you go to a jewish bookstore you ll get a bible translated by jews so there will be some differences in interpretation but the text they re translating from is basically the same the standard text used by christians and jews is the masoretic text jews of course use the text in its original hebrew without translation if you want to read the original you can buy an interlinear bible that contains the hebrew old testament and the greek new testament with an english translation written underneath each word if you want a bible with a possibly more original basic text you can try to find a samaritan bible good luck i ve never seen one the samaritans no not the good samaritans have their own version of the books of moses they claim the jewish bible was altered by ezra propaganda thanks for the tips now i just have to find someone to teach me samaritan just me little e so is a good samaritan hard to find or is a hard oh finish this
talk.religion.misc	re lds birth of a church in article c x x ea acsu buffalo edu psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu robert weiss writes no church will admit that i am right except the one with which i am associated this makes them witnesses against each other and how can i decide in such a case as this seeing they are all unlike the church of christ as it existed in former days p the idea of an apostacy did not originate with lucy smith or joseph smith or the mormons the idea of a restoration was quite common in the early th century usa alexander campbell founder of the group that now survives with the name disciples of christ preached that the primitive church had been lost and was attempting to restore it although not be revelations many cambellites subsequently became mormons including co founder sidney rigdon actually you can find such sentiments in many of the early protestants of the reformation such as martin luther gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
talk.religion.misc	re a kind and loving god in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee writes the only point i m trying to make is that those who call themselves christian may not be christian wow are you serious so not everyone who calls themself a christian is a christian wow that does make things a bit more complicated doesn t it i ask that you draw your own conclusions by what they do and what they say that seems like very good advice given the above revelation if they are not modelled after the example of jesus christ then they are not christian like for example matthew right if they have not repented of their sins and accepted jesus christ as their personal lord and saviour then they are not christian um where did jesus say that he wanted people to worship him these are the only criteria to being a christian so do you adhere to the ten commandments
talk.religion.misc	re biblical backing of koresh s tape cites enclosed rick howtek mv com rick roy writes in article r u t lm oryx com alt conspiracy talk religion misc xcpslf oryx com stephen l favor writes koresh was killed because he wanted lots of illegal guns even if what you say is true do you think this is a reasonable way to deal with people who want lots of illegal guns what makes you say that the guns were illegal i understand that the bd s had a valid class iii federal firearms permit which would allow them to have pretty much anything short of a howitzer legally tom gillman systems programmer aaaaagggghhhh wells computer center ga state univ any classic star trek security syshtg gsusgi gsu edu officer sometime during the show gsu doesn t care what i say on the internet why should you
talk.religion.misc	waco information accuracy it should be remembered that all of the first reports came from the fbi and that independent observers i e the press were not allowed to get close and see things for themselves official communiques tend to be self serving for the agencies that issue them people in general tend to believe first reports as these get the most and the biggest headlines corrections are often overlooked an example is the fbi report that several of the bodies found in the rubble had bullet wounds the local coroner who is independent of the fbi has so far found no bullet wounds
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died brian ceccarelli wrote that s me kent i am not accusing you of evil things jesus is accusing you and it is not only you that he is accusing he is accusing everyone me you and everyone in the world is guilty whether one sees the light or does not seen the light has nothing to do with whether we do evil things we do them regardless kent sandvik responds hmm it seems that this is the core of christianity then you have to feel guilty i think i see where you are coming from kent jesus doesn t view guilt like our modern venacular colors it feelings have nothing to do with guilt feelings arise from the state of being guilty feeling and guilt are mutally exclusive feelings are a reaction from guilt jesus is talking about the guilt state not the reaction let me give you an example have you ever made a mistake have you ever lied to someone even a little white lie have you ever claimed to know something that you really didn t know have you ever hated someone have you ever been selfish are you guilty of any one of these the answer is of course yes you are guilty period that is it what jesus is getting at no big surprise feelings do not even enter the picture consider jesus s use of the word guilt as how a court uses it jesus is concerned that everyone should admit that they are guilty of being imperfect the bible calls it the state that we are all sinners we all do bad things even the most insignficant thing that we do wrong is proof of our guilt that we are all sinners it is it in our nature to do bad things we are sinners therefore we do bad things being a sinner is fact it is not a pleasant fact but it is just a fact we are not perfect calling us sinners should have no more emotional charge to you than calling you a human being guilty as charged and then there s this single personality that will save you from this universal guilt feeling you can handle your guilt in one of two ways acknowledge you made a mistake learn from it and try to not do it again in the meantime not punishing yourself for it which is the way jesus wants you to handle or it this is the healthy way or two the destructive way put yourself down slap yourself and feel like crap never forgive yourself force yourself to say a thousand hail marys even to suicide this the way jesus does not want us to deal with it all people fall into this category to some extent in their lives jesus is not in the business of saving us from this guilt feeling jesus is in the business of showing us how much he loves us despite our guilt jesus knows we are guilty that isn t new to him it is no big deal to him he just wants you to realize that this sinful nature destroys the relationship between you and him that is what he wants you to know why because he wants to have your company you are immensely valuable to him jesus wants a relationship with you however in our present sinful nature we are incapable of having this relationship god is perfect we are not you cannot fit a square peg into a round hole however god has provided a way for us to change our nature so that we can have a relationship with him god has provided jesus so that whosoever just believes in jesus will have their nature changed the holy spirit will move it and now divine nature is now within lives our very being and us and god communicate with each through his unifying holy spirit the benefits of this are endless for with the divine nature living within us we can now see our imperfections better we can now head them off at the pass with the power of the holy spirit living in us we now have his power to help us overcome our shortcomings because the divine nature lives within us we can now understand profound bible passages that never before we could understand because the divine nature now lives within us we now have authority over demonic forces and lastly because the divine nature now lives within us we have eternal life for the holy spirit is eternal the relationship with jesus is of the utmost importance because it is not what you do in life that qualifies you to belong to heavenly kingdom it is your relationship to the living god remember what jesus said at the tail end of matthew when he separated the goats from the sheep many people in the last day will ask him didn t i prophesy in your name and do miracles and do good things in your name and what did jesus say depart from me for i never knew you that is the cornerstone of christianity kent jesus must know you as his friend it is your relationship to jesus if he is your friend and you are his you will be counted among those who will share in his inheritance in heaven brian i will tell you a secret i don t feel guilty at all i do mistakes and i regret them however i ve never had this huge guilt feeling hanging over my shoulder good it shows that you have a strong self image that you love yourself that is the second greatest commandment jesus taught if only more people could do as you do as i said before in the common english venacular feeling guilty has a different meaning than the state of guilt this all is a very clear indication that you need a certain personality type in order to believe and adjust to certain religious doctrines and if your personality type is opposite then you are not that easily attached to a certain world view system i believe what we all need in our personalities is a lot less ego a lot less self centeredness and a lot more unconditional love there are humans that subscribe to the same notion the nice thing is that when you finally shake off this huge burden the shoulders feel far more relaxed yes you have stated what jesus said remember come to me take my yoke upon your shoulders for my burden is light a yoke is used to direct oxen to do work once you have a relationship with jesus you and him share the yoke and the burdens of life having god at your side is of great advantage
talk.religion.misc	re rw is robert weiss the only orthodox christian rick anderson writes are we to simply assume that you referring to robert weiss are the only one who really understands it biblical scriptures no i also understand it i have read the bible from cover to cover examining each book within cross comparing them etc and i have come to same conclusions as robert weiss so rick why not read the bible for yourself it is written in plain english decide for yourself
talk.religion.misc	re merlin mithras and magick in article a si cunyvm bitnet a si cunyvm bitnet writes stuff about mithras deleted oh his b day was dec ahem i thought that saturnalia was celebrated by the romans at that time was mithras connected with this
talk.religion.misc	re burden of proof sometimes a god believer will maintain that atheism is itself a religion many postings to this group have answered that well here s another way to answer the assertion suppose that i don t believe that broken mirrors or black cats bring bad luck does that mean that i have a superstition
talk.religion.misc	re to rob lanphier brian kendig writes you just don t get it do you in fact i believe your religion is imaginary you have clearly demonstrated that you do not even know what my religion is in order to make that assumption please offer me an argument that s more convincing than you just don t believe cos you don t want to how i can present any argument when you put your hands over your eyes and devise new irrevelant excuses each time the fact remains you want to argue about something that you do not know anything about do you not have to learn a topic first before you can reasonably debate the topic which brings us about to the start of this thread you began perverting bible verses interpreting them without investigation for if you desired to investigate you would have changed your tune immediately thus it is clear to me you do not believe what i am saying because you don t want to check it out everything you ve said so far could apply equally to any religion why do you believe yours is the real one then you must have also ignored every other post i have written to you this would seem to go along with your character brian it doesn t offend me if you decide to reject jesus christ i only wish you would make that decision after you learn who jesus is
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli writes kent i am not accusing you of evil things jesus is accusing you and it is not only you that he is accusing he is accusing everyone me you and everyone in the world is guilty whether one sees the light or does not seen the light has nothing to do with whether we do evil things we do them regardless have you ever made a mistake have you ever lied to someone even a little white lie have you ever claimed to know something that you really didn t know have you ever hated someone have you ever been selfish are you guilty of any one of these the answer is of course yes you are guilty period that is it what jesus is getting at no big surprise feelings do not even enter the picture consider jesus s use of the word guilt as how a court uses it you said everyone in the world that means everyone in the world including children that are not old enough to speak let alone tell lies if jesus says everyone you cannot support that by referring to a group of people somewhat smaller than everyone on the first day after christmas my truelove served to me leftover turkey on the second day after christmas my truelove served to me turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey days deleted flaming turkey wings pizza hut commercial and m tlu a gic bait ken arromdee arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu
talk.religion.misc	re the gospels josephus etc and origins in article apr rambo atlanta dg com wpr atlanta dg com bill rawlins writes i will agree that creation should not be taught as science if macroevolution is not taught as science however if we are teaching the wildly speculative theories of macroevolution as an explanation of origins then equal time should be given to creation neither one qualifies as science create a philosophy course call it origins bill rawlins wpr atlanta dg com i speak for myself only interesting idea this suggestion has inspired me to post under the title theories of creation a collection of various philosophies of creation that i am aware of could you explain which of these theories you would want taught and which ones you would not or perhaps i haven t included a favorite theory of yours if so could you describe it for me for inclusion in an updated list tom scharle scharle irishmvs room g computing center scharle lukasiewicz cc nd edu university of notre dame notre dame in usa
talk.religion.misc	objectivity was after years this discussion on objective seems to be falling into solipsism eg the recent challenge from frank dwyer for someone to prove that he can actually observe phenomena someones even made the statement that science is subjective and that even atom are subjective this is getting a bit silly and the word objective is losing all meaning lets start by remembering the definition of objective which has been already presented objective adj of or having to do with a material object as distinguished from a mental concept having actual existence a unenfluenced by emotion or personal prejudice b based on observable phenomenon the objectivity of a thing is not based on whether everyone agrees on that thing eg the world is objectively round regardless of the fact that there exist flat earthers but rather whether it is based observable and verifiable phenomenon instead of being based solely on peoples wishes feeling mental processes etc thus atoms being based on very observable and repeatable phenomenon are indeed considered to be objective rather than subjective even weird high energy physics is based on observable phenomenon even though that observation can change the outcome nor are those observable phenomenon affected by emotion or personal prejudice eg chemical reactions do not change to the whims of different people thus to say that science is not objective ie objectively verifiable is a bit silly as that is the point of science now i will agree that science is not objectively good i will not thereby conclude though that science is not objective now some examples things which are objective a d tractor is larger than the average breadbox chlorophyll is green seawater contains salt there exists ozone in the atmosphere at least presently ozone blocks ultraviolet light ultraviolet light increases the incidents of skin cancer good on the other hand is a value judgement it doesn t seem to have an existence apart from what we give it unless someone can objectively show the existence of an omnipotent entity which has defined good we cannot quantify it touch it or collect it in any concrete sense eg i have a bag full of good now we do sometimes attempt to give the word good an objective meaning e g good has been used to denote strength resiliency speed etc that though is a subjective definition as some might not see strength and etc as necessarily good eg strength inspired by naziism is not generally viewed as good as to a morality i cannot say that i have ever seen a morality strictly based on verifiable observable phenomenon the closest i have seen is some form of the golden rule which concludes that it is best not to deliberately piss people off as they will likely then involve themselves in your life in a manner you won t like this is verifiable when you get in someone s face they will often retaliate another objective fact about morality is that a more powerful group can enforce their morality on a weaker group and thus can at times ignore that form of the golden rule without fear of reprisal now as to whether this enforcing of morality is good or bad is quite subjective by the way remember that subjective does not mean that a thing cannot be formally stated or even commonly agreed upon it only means that that it is not verifiable from observable phenomena or has a physical existence unto itself also note that i have not stated that there is no such thing as an objective morality or that i could not accept any such a morality i have simply stated that i have seen no evidence of any such morality one other thing to notice objective is many times used as synonymous with true and or absolute and subjective sometimes has the connotation of false and or relative tain t necessarily so for instance when a conclusion is based on objective but insufficient evidence then it can be both objective and false as to absolute it is easy to note that while we can objectively show that tnt is explosive but that does not absolutely mean that all tnt will explode and thus objective is not necessarily absolute either on the other hand something subjective can also be either absolutist or true for instance there are some theists who are specifically absolutist in their morality even though they have only subjective evidence to back it up further many a scientist and detective has been motivated by subjective reasons eg a gut feeling or hunch to investigate a phenomena or situation and gather the objective evidence necessary to support a true hypothesis on the whole though i would have to agree that objective evidence is much more trustworthy than subjective evidence later dave butler in starting any thesis it seems to me one should put forward as one s point of departure something incontrovertible the expression should be simple and dignified diogenes
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died in article bskendigc wrsm gyx netcom com bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes as long as we re trading secrets let me tell y all one i got a really bad feeling in my heart back when i was a christian i couldn t really pinpoint it but something felt dreadfully cheap and wrong about the whole affair i had been a devout follower even a bible banger but eventually it started ringing terribly hollow to me and i felt torn when i began to disagree with a lot of what the bible and my priests told me this was what made me finally realize that either i was very wrong or else the bible was very wrong and since i felt reasonably sure of myself i decided to start analyzing the bible very closely that was the catalyst to my break with my faith though it was a long and difficult effort brian have you checked out what your priests told you in the bible to see whether they were telling you the truth did you know that according to the bible there shouldn t even be such things as priests anymore do you know why the preisthood was established in the old testament to begin with and the reasons why after jesus there were no priests that is until the roman catholic church years later devised the doctrine of transubstantiation by ignoring the whole concept beyond the book of hebrews you said you analyzed the bible very closely i think you are lying for if you had i would think you would have at least got the doctrine of hell straight so what is your beef against jesus be specific and point on verses
talk.religion.misc	re oto the ancient order of oriental templars tony alicea ch cleveland freenet edu wrote in a previous article shades sorinc cutler com darrin a hyrup says they thelema lodge don t have an internet address but they do have a cis address which can be reached via uucp internet it is so i guess that would be cis com or something like that compuserve com i ve tried compuserve com bounced twice any other guesses thyagi
talk.religion.misc	re what part of no don t you understand in article apr advtech uswest com steven advtech uswest com steve novak writes david r sacco writes some people even raised protests when we had a moment of silence for a class member who had tragically died saying this implied endorsing religion because of course that possibility existed meaning any student who really gave a shit could have a moment of silence on his her own which makes more sense than forcing those who don t want to participate to have to take part what other reason is there for an organized moment of silence a moment of silence doesn t mean much unless everyone participates otherwise it s not silent now is it non religious reasons for having a moment of silence for a dead classmate to comfort the friends by showing respect to the deceased to give the classmates a moment to grieve together to give the friends a moment to remember their classmate in the context of the school to deal with the fact that the classmate is gone so that it s not disruptive later blindly opposing everything with a flavor of religion in it is utterly idiotic pro choice anti roe e elizabeth bartley abortions should be safe legal early and rare
talk.religion.misc	re to rob lanphier i wrote my hope is that brian k will look and will see the ramifications of the truck coming towards him my hope is that brian will want to step out of the way my fear though is that brian will instead choose to glue himself to the middle of the highway where he will certainly get run over but if he so chooses he so chooses and there is nothing i can do beyond that to change his mind for it is his choice but at this very moment brian hasn t gotten even that far he is still at the point where he does not want to look sure he moves his eyeball to appease me but his head will not turn around to see the entire picture so far he is satisfied with his glimpse of the mountains off in the distance kent sandvik writes the problem is that you imagine him inside this huge wall unable to see reality while he imagines the same about you clearly we have a case where relativity plays a big role concerning looking at opposite frames of reality kent with regards to the information contained in the bible which is the original context of this thread brian kendig is inside a huge wall brian is inside the bible and the information contained therein are outside the wall brian kendig proves this very sad fact by the absurd things he says for example if i get through into the firey pit i will cease to exist the bible doesn t say that he hasn t a clue even to what jesus said about hell that is but one example now in your sense kent of sensing reality that is a different matter and to you and to brian relativity does play a big role what we perceive to be true depends on our vantage point since i have read the bible and brian kendig shows that he hasn t he has a narrower perspective than mine at least in the respect of knowledge of the bible i am proposing to brian brian come up here and take a look from this vantage point but brian replies i rather not thank you i am content where i am besides the vista from up there stinks and in the meanwhile brian ignores the facts that he has never up there nor does he realize i had shared the same plateau where brian now stands
talk.religion.misc	re biblical backing of koresh s tape cites enclosed st stephen tice km ken mcvay st seems to me koresh is yet another messenger that got killed st for the message he carried which says nothing about the km seems to be barring evidence to the contrary that koresh was simply km another deranged fanatic who thought it neccessary to take a whole bunch of km folks with him children and all to satisfy his delusional mania jim km jones circa i think there s plenty of evidence to the contrary six rescued davidians consistantly recounted that the federal tank knocked over a barrel of propane these guys haven t exactly been spending time together plotting an elaborate and consistent story it would be contradictory for koresh to go for mass suicide remember that koresh s death was the opening of the sixth seal the signal that armageddon had begun his army the people in the compound would then fight the powers of evil and win ending in the rapture the fire wiped out his army i read earlier that koresh was planning to walk out of the compound and blow himself up with a grenade that would jibe better with his teachings st in the mean time we sure learned a lot about evil and corruption st are you surprised things have gotten that rotten km nope fruitcakes like koresh have been demonstrating such evil corruption km for centuries i d think you d be the last one to support gassing people and burning them to death for their religious beliefs corrupt evil i don t know we ll never know and when you start calling people fruitcakes about their religious beliefs that s dehumanizing people we saw what happened when many germans started believing that jews were subhuman in one neat stroke they destroyed all the evidence that could have pointed to wrongdoing and killed all the witnesses including children whose last view of life was choking and pain followed by burning them alive i am extremely saddened that this tragedy occurred i m furious that they used my money to do it so i become an accessory dave criswell and i don t have an alibi oracle corporation to the victim on my doorstep only way i can justify it s family business fish
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews in article tecsun tec army mil riggs descartes etl army mil bill riggs writes the second question is what makes gerry think that the davidians actions would have been different had another type of warrant been in use just taking a guess perhaps it was that koresh had peaceably been served with warrants before and he did not shoot anyone but instead went with the police without fighting on the first day after christmas my truelove served to me leftover turkey on the second day after christmas my truelove served to me turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey days deleted flaming turkey wings pizza hut commercial and m tlu a gic bait ken arromdee arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu
talk.religion.misc	re biblical backing of koresh s tape cites enclosed in article r j ie sbctri sbc com netd susie sbc com writes name stephen writes for those who think david koresh didn t have a solid structure or sound biblical backing for his hour long tape broadcast i don t think anyone really cares about the solid structure of his sermon other than it tells quite a lot about the man himself it s the deaths he s responsible for that concern most people are you the spokesman for most people i ve enclosed a partial list of the sources he cites or quotes he exactly used as a christian sermon it s pretty good if not inspired though i differ in part on some of his conclusions the argument he presents is well backed which is why it s taken me this long to work through still ongoing if you thought it was rambling that says far more about you than it does koresh you ve made me curious what does this say about me that you don t recognize the biblical commentary used those in the church know the language though and have no such excuse first seal in revelation the entirety of psalms and the most of revelation which demonstrated one of his major points about how the writings in the prophets including david and in the psalms and in revelation are all telling the same story when you understand how they re related ie have the key they largely explain each other charles manson used revelation as well do we see a pattern here i wonder if koresh liked the beatles you missed the point which is that the prophets the psalms and revelation all together provide a very rich view of a very special event a wedding koresh was a nut okay just because he found ways for the bible to backup his rantings does not make him any less of a kook how are you able to make such a conclusion please note that the first part of revelation makes it clear that the address is to those in the church that said it doesn t hurt to try to see what the prophecies are ahead of time for those outside the church seems to me koresh is yet another messenger that got killed for the message he carried i ll type this very slowly so that you can understand he either set the fire himself or told his followers to do so don t make him out to be a martyr he did not get killed he killed himself so you say it should be interesting to see what the investigators conclude and what the final judgments are in the mean time we sure learned a lot about evil and corruption are you surprised things have gotten that rotten the evil was inside the compound all that thou shalt not kill stuff so much for war and government eh oh yeah one last point for the believers philippian for the rest of us could you please post the text very glad you asked since i goofed it should be philippian here from niv because of my chains most of the brothers in the lord have been encouraged to speak the word of god more courageously and fearlessly it is true that some preach christ out of envy and rivalry but others out of good will the latter do so in love knowing that i am put here for the gospel the former preach christ out of selfish ambition not sincerely supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while i am chains but what does it matter the important thing is that in every way whether from false motives or true christ is preached and because of this i rejoice my comment stems from the realization that we who love the lord are human and imperfect whatever we preach no matter how eloquent or how corrupted is of little difference those who know the master s voice will recognize him a gem stone amidst rock such is also the lesson of the stumblingblock for those who have an ear to hear j stephen
talk.religion.misc	re biblical backing of koresh s tape cites enclosed in article apr maths tcd ie pmoloney maths tcd ie paul moloney writes cotera woods ulowell edu ray cote writes david thibedeau sp one of the cult members said that the fire was started when one of the tanks spraying the tear gas into the facilities knocked over a lantern in two places at once bit of a coincidence that never lived out in the country i see years ago i had a place where i had to carry in propane every month hook the bottle up to copper line to supply both the stove and a type of water heater called a flash heater a flash heater has a pilot lamp here s the point if the davidians had their propane tanks hooked up to copper or some such lines run through the ceiling spaces when the fbi started wrecking the place they could easily have ruptured the lines which then would start spreading out through the overhead and since it was a country home it wasn t necessarily built with non flamable insulation it s probably more plausible than anything else that the fire started mainly as a result of accident or willful negligence on the part of the fbi which should have known better ie manslaughter it s certain that if the tanks hadn t been used that day the fire wouldn t have started whatever the faults the fbi had the fact is that responsibility for those deaths lies with koresh paul what fact
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli writes so what is your beef against jesus first and foremost i honestly do not believe that jesus was anything more than a man who lived and died two thousand years ago i know your bible provides wonderful stories of the things he said and did but i simply do not believe that he still exists as an entity that has any bearing on this universe or the lives in it and i similarly do not believe that the god that you worship exists or has ever existed period i view religion in general and christianity in specific as a cultural virus that has been passed down from generation to generation because people are often too afraid to think for themselves and claim responsibility for their own fate so they brainwash themselves and their children into believing the popular myths and it goes on from there and eventually christianity becomes a given if so many other people believe in it it must be right no i don t believe in any life after death i believe that when i die i die so therefore it s up to me to try to bring meaning and purpose to my life in the meantime i don t believe that it s a good thing to humble myself and view pride as a sin pride in moderation is a constructive thing i see nothing at all wrong with homosexuality and nothing inferior about women and my priests lost a lot of my trust when they patronizingly tried to explain the faults of these opinions to me i don t believe in loving everyone especially people i ve never met while i try to show respect to everyone my love and admiration is something not easily earned and i do not feel guilty about denying my respect and consideration to someone who has abused it if you want me to take your religion the least bit seriously stop trying to show me how the bible makes sense start trying to show me that this jesus person is somehow still influencing anyone s life here on earth brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j ai vus j ose croire n etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux au moins je suis autre is that it ends rousseau
talk.religion.misc	apr god s promise in proverbs the tongue that brings healing is a tree of life but a deceitful tongue crushes the spirit proverbs niv
talk.religion.misc	re biblical backing of koresh s tape cites enclosed in article c ueed d apollo hp com nelson p apollo hp com peter nelson writes in article apr woods ulowell edu cotera woods ulowell edu writes in article r j ie sbctri sbc com netd susie sbc com writes in article apr utarlg uta edu b zaw utarlg uta edu stephen writes for those who think david koresh didn t have a solid structure or sound biblical backing for his hour long tape broadcast i don t think anyone really cares about the solid structure of his sermon it s the deaths he s responsible for that concern most people i assume you have evidence that he was responsible for the deaths koresh was a nut okay again i d like to see some evidence nut or not he was clearly a liar he said he would surrender after local radio stations broadcast his message but he didn t then he said he would surrender after passover but he didn t the rest of the story seems to be that the agreement for the broadcast was for prime time and that koresh never even heard it played wasn t even tuned in to the radio when it aired so no reason to come out if later they had given him a copy of the grossly twisted newswire transcript i m certain koresh would think he was at the mercy of evil itself as to coming out after passover wasn t that just one of the lawyer s speculations peter j stephen
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews in article r os hil agate berkeley edu isaackuo spam berkeley edu isaac kuo writes in article c wia hr apollo hp com goykhman apollo hp com red herring writes the fbi claims on the basis of their intelligence reports that bd s had no plans to commit suecide they btw had bugged the place and were listening to bd s conversations till the very end koresh s attorney claims that based on some hours he spent talking to his client and others in the compound he saw no indication that bd s were contemplating suecide the survivors claim it was not a suecide it s not clear that more than one of the survivors made this claim it is clear that at least one of the survivors made the contradictory claim that bd members had started the fire no this is far from clear we only have the word of the fbi spokepeople that a survivor made this claim we have the contradictory word of the lawyers who spoke with the survivors individually that all of them agreed that they did not have a suicide pact and did not intentionally start the fire in the absense of any more evidence i don t see how we can decide who to believe furthermore its quite possible that there was no general suicide pact and that some small inner circle took it upon themselves to kill everyone else with the state of the area now we may never know what happened bd s were not contemplating suecide and there is no reason to believe they committed one no reason how about these two some of the survivors claimed that bd members poured fuel along the corridors and set fire to it the speed at which the fire spread is not inconsistent with this claim again we have only the word of the fbi on this claim the lawyers who have also talked to the survors deny that any of them are making that claim there was certainly a fire which killed most of the people in the compound there is a very very good possibility that the fbi did not start this fire this is a good reason to believe that the bd s did i will agree on your assessment as to the relative probabilities its more likely that the bd s started the fire than did the fbi but there is currently no way to decide what actually happened based on the publically available evidence which is nearly none even if the bd s were not contemplating suicide it is very possible that david koresh was convinced and thus convinced the others that this was not suicide it was the fulfilment of a profecy of some sort there are three possibilities other than the bd s self destruction a they are not dead but escaped via bunker etc from reports of the inadequacies of the tunnels and the bodies found i would rate this as highly unlikely b the fire was started by an fbi accident this is possible but it would be foolish of us to declare this outright until more evidence can back it sure it s possible that the armored vehicle knocked down a lantern which started the fire why was there a lit lantern in the middle of the day near the edge of the complex it s anecdotal evidence that has been contradicted by other escapees c the fire was started on purpose by the fbi this has been suggested by some on the net and i would rate this possibility as utterly ludicrous this is what we in sci skeptic would call an extraordinary claim and won t bother refuting unless someone gives any good evidence to back it up d the fire was an started accidentally by the bds i am truely amazed that i have heard or read of no one suggesting this possibility with all the tear gas and the lack of electical power in the compound and the adults wearing gas masks it had to have been chaotic inside i can easily image someone leaving a lamp too close to something or accidentally dropping a lamp or knocking one over with the winds it would have quickly gotten out of control so we are left with two reasonable possibilities that the fire was an fbi accident and that the fire was started by the bd i find the latter more likely based on the evidence i ve seen so far no i think that d is also quite reasonable i personally can t really asses any relative probablities to either of these probabilities although if forced to bet on the issue i would probably take an accident either fbi or bd over intential setting of the fire i would also like to add a comment related to the reports that bodies recovered had gunshot wounds the coroner was on the today show this morning and categorically denied that they ve reach any such conclusions he pointed out that under intense heat sufficient pressure builds up in the head that can cause it to explode and that this can look very much like a massive gunshot wound to the head which is quite consisted with te reports i ve read and heard in short there s been almost no evidence corroborating any of the many scenarios as to what happened on monday we should remain skeptical until more information is available isaac kuo isaackuo math berkeley edu o twinkle twinkle little sig keep it less than lines big bob garwood
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article apr asl dl nec com duffy aslss asl dl nec com joseph duffy wrote in article c wi n v hilbert cyprs rain com max hilbert cyprs rain com max webb writes it is big bang you sound absolutely convinced tell me how long did it last what color was it since you asked from the big bang to the formation of atoms is about e seconds as for the color bright very very bright it must be so exciting to know for sure i don t i believe the current theory of cosmology because it is fairly well supported by observational evidence not as well supported as say evolution or relativity but that s another matter you re the one who proposes unquestioningly accepting religious dogma as fact apologies if you re not actually a creationist by the way it seems as though there is a fine line between postulating new miracles and postulating new theories the line is broader than you think theories are supported by evidence miracles are supported by someone s say so joe duffy duffy asl dl nec com nec america inc advanced switching laboratory justin fang justinf cco caltech edu this space intentionally left blank
talk.religion.misc	re ancient references to christianity was albert sabin why is the nt tossed out as info on jesus i realize it is normally tossed out because it contains miracles but what are the other reasons mac michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody can explain everything to anybody g k chesterton
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened note the followup to redirect s to alt conspiracy talk politics misc in article c sqya f v noose ecn purdue edu tbrent bank ecn purdue edu timothy j brent said in response to p vasilion but then i don t pack heavy weaponry with intent to use it you don t really think he should have been allowed to keep that stuff do you if so tell me where you live so i can be sure to steer well clear the public also has rights and they should be placed above those of the individual go ahead call me a commie but you d be singing a different tune if i exercised my right to rape your daughter he broke the law he was a threat to society they did there job simple you have no evidence that david koresh or his followers were packing that heavy weaponry with any intent to use for other that recreational and self defense purposes your statement that the public also has rights is correct only is parsed as the individuals who comprise the public also have rights there is no separate rights bearing entity known as the public since the rights of the public of which you spoke are in fact only rights of individuals the statement that the rights of the public should be placed above the rights of the individual has no meaning you have artificially created an illusionary conflict of individuals rights when you speak of my right to rape your daughter no person has the right to rape another person therefore there is no conflict how do you define society do you hold that this society is a rights bearing entity which is separate from any individual people how do you define a threat to society to what extent do you believe that a person loses his rights when he is declared by whom to be such a threat william december starr wdstarr athena mit edu
talk.religion.misc	re the fact of the theory jim and andy both have it incorrect i believe the facts are what is there the processes that exist in the present or the physical evidence of the processes having occured in the past these facts exist with or without a theory the theory tries and explains the facts and how they relate to the rest of the physical universe in a manner that is both coherent and useful that it can be used to make predictions the facts of gravity evolution electromagnetic radiation relativity atoms will exist and behave in the way in which they behave regardless of whether we have a theory to try and explain how they interact or even why a theory never really becomes a fact but a theory can predict the existence of a previously unknown fact and if we find this fact as the theory predicted we say the theory is supported by the facts a theory is a mental construct a speculation a model if it is a good model it may be useful in science a theory is something that is supported by the evidence considerable evidence sometimes all of the evidence a hypothesis is a new fledgling theory because there is not yet enough evidence to support it when a new hypothesis is proposed to replace an existing theory it must explain all of the facts that the current theory explains and at least some of the facts that the current theory could not and or predict new facts it is so simple i m surprised that this subject gets beat to death about once a month a quick glance in a dictionary would clear up of the confusion and bandwidth in this newsgroup then we could talk about really important things like why do men have nipples david utidjian utidjian remarque berkeley edu
talk.religion.misc	evolution as fact and theory in article ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes deleted what is the fact of evolution there is a difference between calling evolution a fact and talking about the theory of evolution providing facts i happen to think the latter is more accurate deleted evolution is both fact and theory the theory of evolution represents the scientific attempt to explain the fact of evolution the theory of evolution does not provide facts it explains facts it can be safely assumed that all scientific theories neither provide nor become facts but rather explain facts i recommend that you do some appropriate reading in general science a good starting point with regard to evolution for the layman would be evolution as fact and theory in hen s teeth and horse s toes pp by stephen jay gould there is a great deal of other useful information in this publication uucp uunet tektronix sail mikec or m cranford uunet tektronix sail labs tek com mikec principal troll arpa mikec sail labs tek com relay cs net resident skeptic csnet mikec sail labs tek com teklabs tektronix
talk.religion.misc	history texts was ancient references to christianity in article c ztju fkx news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes why is the nt tossed out as info on jesus i realize it is normally tossed out because it contains miracles but what are the other reasons far from being tossed out the gospels are taken almost universally as the primary source of information about jesus i am curious as to whom mike cobb is referring who tosses out the new testament undoubtedly a few naive atheists do this but the phrasing of the question above seems to suggest that cobb ascribes this more broadly perhaps the question that gets more to the heart of the matter is why except for some naive believers who unfortunately far outnumber nonbelievers both naive and critical are the gospels not taken as gospel truth that faithfully records just what happened two thousand years ago this has an easy answer and the answer has nothing to do with miracles no text is taken this way by a critical reader there is a myth among some naive believers that one takes a text measures it by some set of criteria and then either confirms the text as historically valid or tosses out the text i suspect this myth comes from the way history is presented in primary and secondary school where certain texts are vested with authority and from writers such as josh mcdowell who pretend to present historical arguments along these lines for their religious program in fact most texts used in primary and secondary school history classes ought to be tossed out even the better such texts should not be treated as authoritatively as descibed above and josh mcdowell would not know a historical argument if it bit him on the keister twice let me present the barest outlines of a different view of texts and their use in studying history first all texts are historically valid all texts or to put this another way i have never seen a notion of historical validity that makes any sense when applied to a text second no text should be read as telling the gospel truth about historical events in the way that many students are wont to read history texts in primary and secondary school no text this includes your favorite author s history of whatever every text is a historical fact every text was written by some person or some group of people for some purpose hence every text can serve as historical evidence the question is what can we learn from a text of what interesting things if any does the text provide evidence the diaries of the followers of the maharishi formerly of oregon are historical evidence the gospels are historical evidence the letters of the officers who participated in the vampire inquests in eastern europe are historical evidence the modern american history textbooks that whitewash great american figures are historical evidence these are all historical evidence of various things they are not much evidence at all that the maharishi formerly of oregon could levitate that jesus was resurrected that vampires exist or that great american figures are as squeaky clean as we learned in school they are better evidence that some people saw the maharishi late of oregon levitate that some of the early christians thought jesus was resurrected that many people in eastern europe saw vampires return from the grave and that we still have an educational system that largely prefers to spread myth rather than teach history how does one draw causal connections and infer what a piece of historical evidence text or otherwise evinces this is a very complex question that has no easily summarized answer there are many books on the subject or various parts of the subject i enjoy david hackett fischer s historian s fallacies as a good antidote to the uncritical way in which it is so easy to read texts present history it s relatively cheap it s easy to read give it a try russell
talk.religion.misc	ceci s rosicrucian adventure hello ceci my name is tony and i have a few comments on your rosicrucian adventure i hereby state that i am not claiming or denying membership in any order fraternity etc with or without the word rosicrucian in the name of the organization i only claim having done some homework this is intended as a friendly article and if at times it seems different it s my lack of writing skills showing nothing else heck english may be my second language and then again maybe not by now i proceed i had an ehum interesting experience with the rosicrucians or at least rosicrucians of some sort last sunday let s start with the name rosicrucian i took me a long time to come to the conclusion that there is a difference between a member of a rosicrucian body and being a rosicrucian so when you say that you met some rosicrucians you mean members of a group that calls themselves rosicrucian at least that is what your observation suggests i d prefer if you would have stated up front that it was the lectorium rosicrucianum only because they may be confused by some readers of this newsgroup with the rosicrucian order amorc based the usa jurisdiction in san jose ca this being the rc org with the most members last time i looked of course most members does not necessarily mean best anyway the lectorium rosicrucianum claims they descend at least in part from what was the gold und rosenkreuz golden and rosy cross from the th century there were two golden and rosy cross the first chronologically more alchemical the second with masonic tinges but their history is the subject of a complete chapter you ll have to trust me when i tell you that if that lecture class whatever had been presented by amorc it is unlikely that you would have had the same impression i e you d probably have had a positive impression more likely than a negative one imho the first guy also said that the r s are a mystical christian order and that they base their teachings on the teachings of the kathars english from the thirteenth century again instead of r s it should be lectorium rosicrucianum it is curious to know that other rc orders in the usa claim to be non sectarian the cathars were a heretic christian sect that directly challenged the authority of the medieval catholic church they flourished during the th century century which saw the religious zeal expressed in the crusades and also the growing disillusion with the catholic church and the worldly ways of its clerics it was largely in response to the church s unseemly pomp and splendor that catharism took root first in northern italy then throughout the south of france what made me a bit suspicious was the way they first said that we all contained something divine and could find our way back to divinity then that we couldn t become divine as the persons we are currently but if we worked really hard we would reach eternal bliss i don t see nothing fundamentally wrong with us containing something divine and yes i don t like phrases like eternal bliss either how to robotize people and brainwash for a moment i thought you were referring to madison ave madison avenue in new york city is where the most influential read commercial advertising is produced here in the usa peace tony btw i have read the intro letters of the lrc which they will mail you free of charge
talk.religion.misc	re burden of proof in article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes the default condition in the absence of a preponderance of evidence either way is that the proposition or assertion is undecidable and the person who takes the undecidable position and says that he she simply disbelieves that the proposition is true is the only one who holds no burden of proof this is why the so called weak atheist position is virtually unassailable not because it stands on a firm foundation of logical argument but because it s proponents simply disbelieve in the existence of god s and therefore they hold no burden of proof when you don t assert anything you don t have to prove anything that s where weak atheism draws its strength but its strength is also its achilles heel without assertions axioms one has no foundation upon which to build as a philosophy it s virtually worthless imo of course yes as a philosophy weak atheism is worthless this is true in exactly the same sense that as a philosophy christians disbelief in zeus is worthless atheists construct their personal philosophies from many different sources building non god based ideas in the same way as christians build non zeus based ideas of thunderbolts atheists no more base their philosophy on atheism than christians base theirs on the nonexistence of zeus the weak atheist position is logically extremely assailable any logical demonstration of the existence of a god completely destroys it as soon as the demonstration is made in the presence of a given weak atheist atheists in this newsgroup are barraged regularly with attempts to provide such a logical demonstration and they all fail miserably in fact most of the people around here who claim the strong as opposed to mathematical atheist position do so on this basis not only do we not believe in a god but also all the arguments presented in favor of particular gods have to date proven unsound therefore one can say that those gods as argued by those arguments do not exist this doesn t apply to such philosophers gods as are defined to be logically undemonstrable but these are not the gods of popular religion and the coherence of such claims is quite questionable jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
talk.religion.misc	the nature of light in article ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes deleted take light as another example there are two theories particle and wave each one fails to predict the behavior of light as some point so which is it particle or wave deleted your information on this topic is very much out of date quantum electro dynamics qed which considers light to be particles has been experimentally verified to about decimal digits of precision under all tested conditions i m afraid that this case at least in the physics community has been decided laymen should consult qed the strange theory of light and matter by richard p feynman and for the more technically minded there s the feynman lectures on physics by feynman leighton and sands an excellent volumes case closed uucp uunet tektronix sail mikec or m cranford uunet tektronix sail labs tek com mikec principal troll arpa mikec sail labs tek com relay cs net resident skeptic csnet mikec sail labs tek com teklabs tektronix
talk.religion.misc	hail stan i found this on the net at my college it sounds pretty good to me what do you folks think this are the tenets of stan as handed down and set within the holy book of stan thou shalt not spill thine drinks or waste thine food for all that is is sacred and to waste is the denizen of luc the infidel all who waste today shall have not tomorrow thou shalt pay heed to those who know the higher calling of stan so that they may teach you the way and that thou shalt become one with stan and the universe shall be in your hands thou shalt honor thy loved ones and cherish those near you for they are the true path to happiness and happiness is a devine gift of thy lord stan stan is the one true god and shall be taken before all others so that the false gods will know that he is the one and all who oppose him shall forever be banished to the form of the sheep and be sent to the flocks of luc for all eternity the word is the law and the law is the word the word is within thine own heart follow the path and be true to thine own self and thou shalt be blessed by stan thy lord and saviour thou shalt honor the faiths of others for it is their choice to follow this path and do not think less of others for being of a different faith yet even in the face of these false gods do not waiver in thine faith in stan and hope that the unbeliever will see the light that is stan thou shalt not wrong others for being different for stan cherishes the different and holds freedom in the highest regard for to do less would be to fall in with luc the infidel for stan does not control he merely guides and lets the choice lie within thine own heart thou shalt know that thy lord stan has many names and is called differently by many people but know also that stan is the true name and all those of the faith shall know that stan is god and god is stan thou shalt be to the world what thou art to thineself for to be false to others is to be false to yourself thy lord stan asks not that you be like him he asks only that you be like yourself for that is all you were ever meant to be thou shalt not kill the innocent nor spill blood unnecessarily for those who are deserving of death shall be dealt with by stan and sent for all eternity to the flocks of luc and those who harm the children of stan being born of woman shall be judged as the sheep of luc and spend all of time within his flocks these commandments are the words of stan heed them and he shall be happy and if thy lord stan is happy his happiness shall be passed down to his followers hail stan it seems like a pretty good set of tenets to me v i like kittens e mail robert voss die especially with rgv ultb isc rit edu andrews memorial dr die a side order of rgv ritvax isc rit edu cpu die french fries rgv ritvax bitnet rochester ny die die i am darkness eternal call me my phone number is die
talk.religion.misc	why did they behave as they did waco reading suggestion if you would like to understand better the sort of behavior that we saw in connection with the waco tragedy i d strongly recommend reading when prophecy fails by leon festinger henry riecken and stanley schachter available as a harper torchbook it goes a long way towards explaining how a belief system can be so strong as to withstand even overwhelming disconfirmatory evidence at least read the first chapter interestingly just as the branch davidians had roots in the seventh day adventist movement the sdas themselves had their roots in the millerite movement of the first half of the th century a movement that expected the end of the world in was disappointed when it did not take place and wound up as a church bill if you meet the buddha on the net put him in your kill file robert firth
talk.religion.misc	re a kind and loving god in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee wrote and does it not say in scripture that no man knows the hour of his coming not even the angels in heaven but only the father himself dk was trying to play god by breaking the seals himself dk killed himself and as many of his followers as he could btw god did save the children they are in heaven a far better place how do i know by faith it seems faith is the only tool available for emotional purposes due to the tragedy as such it maybe fills a need however i m getting tired to see children dying in pain in sudan due to lack of food and assuming that god takes these sufferers to heaven after a painful death if the children are not being fed whose fault is that you and i have plenty of food on our tables while others starve why is that god gave us this earth to manage i don t think we re doing a very good job of it the only consolation i have for those suffering children is that they will be received into the kingdom of heaven where they will never thirst and never hunger again peace be with you malcolm lee cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re koresh doctrine of in article c yy i ebn dscomsa desy de hallam zeus desy de writes in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu clavazzi nyx cs du edu the doge writes deleted vast quantities of carefully annoted spew from david koresh i don t know about the rest of you but i think mr tice needs a hobby he has one he spent last summer telling everyone who doubted the word of the great perot that they were bigotted perot bashers right up to the moment he chickened out on them he then kept quiet for a bit and then came back when perot re entered this seems appropriate somehow then there is the rumour that loresh in fact survived the fire in a secret hideyhole and rose again on the third day only to be spirited away by fbi agents and disposed of in order to prevent a cult following hah i have it on the very best authority mine that koresh is whooping it up in a time share condo in dallas with elvis jfk and of course j r bob dobbs who also owns the place and everything else in texas look for koresh sightings in the weekly world news and national enquirer in the coming months the doge of south st louis dobbs approved media conspirator tm one step beyond sundays to pm fm st louis community radio you ll pay to know what you really think j r bob dobbs
talk.religion.misc	re rawlins debunks creationism in article ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes in article c sncl j o usenet ucs indiana edu adpeters sunflower bio indiana edu andy peters writes evolution as i have said before is theory and fact it is exactly the same amount of each as the existence of atoms and the existence of gravity if you accept the existence of atoms and gravity as fact then you should also accept the existence of evolution as fact andy i don t accept atoms or gravity as fact either they are extremely useful mathematical models to describe physical observations we can make other posters have aptly explained the atomic model gravity too is very much a theory no gravity waves have even been detected but we have a very useful model that describes much of the behavior on objects by this thing we call gravity gravity however is not a fact it is a theoretical model used to talk about how objects behave in our physical environment newton thought gravity was a simple vector force einstein a wave both are very useful models that have no religious overtones or requirements of faith unless of course you want to demand that it is a factual physical entity described exactly the way the theory now formulated talks about it that takes a great leap of faith which of course is what religion takes evolution is no different jim halat halat bear com are you serious here s an exercise next time you are in the barnyard take your model and hold it directly above a fresh cowpie then release the model you will observe that on its own your model will assume a trajectory earthward and come to rest exactly where it belongs watch out for splatters particularly if you are wearing shorts when you perform this experiment rich fox anthro usouthdakota
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died jasons atlastele com jason smith writes bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes and i felt torn when i began to disagree with a lot of what the bible and my priests told me did it start getting a little uncomfortable did your style start feeling a bit cramped yes that s exactly what i felt my heart just felt that what i was being taught was wrong a basically good message but framed in errors i could not with a clear conscience accept that women were somehow not equal to men that homosexuals are guilty of their lifestyle that pride in one s work is a bad thing that jesus died for me i don t want anybody to die for me especially as an impersonal act where the person can t possibly even know me well enough to really know if i m worth dying for or not i was never able to accept the bit about jesus s death being a good thing if that means that i m just not comprehending a basic message of christianity then so be it maybe i m just not compatible with christianity i just refuse to follow rules blindly and since i can t even convince myself that your god even exists in the way you describe it i ve got to just follow my own conscience in these matters i know how that goes knowing i couldn t and didn t want to live up to those impossibleand rather incovenient rules are what kept me outside too don t think that my morals are shoddy or nonexistent just because i don t believe in your god i will not steal and i will not murder not because i fear divine repudiation but because these just aren t in my character you may think there s nothing keeping me from just running around on a murdering spree stealing things when i m able insulting people for the heck of it because i m not answerable to anyone but you d be wrong i m answerable to myself a life like that would be a cheap life i happen to want to earn respect in myself till i met the man that is my initial break with christianity came after a lot of soul searching and a lot of wondering why i could no longer feel the presence of god with me i finally decided that i had once felt this presence just as i had felt my mighty teddy bear beside me when i was a little tyke protecting me from the monsters under the bed that i had believed in god just as i had believed in the teddy bear as something of an emotional crutch to protect me from perceived dangers since then i ve never abandoned the possibility that maybe your supernatural trinity does exist but there are a few times when in my darkened room by my bed i have set aside everything i believe for a moment and called out to whatever s out there because i want to know the truth even if it means abandoning everything i know and i have not yet received an answer only when i truly listened to myself body and soul did i realize that i could no longer honestly keep up the charade of being christian there is a higher truth in the universe and christianity just ain t it any suggestions on what or who or where it might be and why nope it may well be unknowable scientists have suggested that the universe may be finite and wrap around on itself the three dimensional universe may be mapped onto a four dimensional supersphere in the same way you can map a two dimensional plane onto a three dimensional sphere see sphereland the sequel to flatland for more thoughts on this our entire universe might just be an electron in a four dimensional universe which in turn may only be an insignificant speck in a universe above that and so on and so forth until the variables become too much for us to even speculate on that is there s no possible way for us to know exactly how we came to be so there s no reason at all to believe that your god exists nor had anything to do with it ok you may say so now if i m just being good am i doing good enough that s for you to answer if you feel you re doing fine then go ahead and ignore us foolish little christians we can present what we ve seen and experienced providing our witness but it isn t up to us to make that seed sprout christians have provided me with nothing except quotes from your holy book and all sorts of tactics to try to get me to believe guilt trips insinuations that i m without morals arguments from disbelief how can you possibly believe that god doesn t exist and so forth all i m asking is for you to convince me i want to be convinced but it s not going to be easy so much as you don t like what we re selling there just may be someone out there that can identify with it methinks you could give us all a lesson in tolerance and back off having had years upon years of contact with your religion from both the inside and the outside i view it as harmful in many ways it preys on people who want to find meaning in their lives and once it s got these people it teaches them to have pity and sometimes starkly intolerant of others who do not share these views maybe you ll say that your religion doesn t teach that but i ve got to judge christianity from the christians i know i feel that it is entirely possible and good to have faith in one s self and to be a positive influence on society for no better reason than that so i hope that my words in this newsgroup will at least make some people think i want christians to realize that there are perfectly valid lifestyles and opinions that have nothing to do with their deity whatsoever and i want people who are considering christianity to realize that christianity does not hold the sole key to a happy fulfilled life i have known some very nice christians who have done some very nice things i think what sets these people apart from the general masses is that they recognize that their religious beliefs may be wrong and they know the weaknesses of their religion yet they still decide to believe but they keep their beliefs to themselves and do not think any less of people who don t agree with them obviously the debate on the veracity and reliability of the source of the christian s faith is far from conclusive notwithstanding how vehemently we propose otherwise precisely my point you ve still not given me a reason to be a christian instead of a buddhist or a moslem the nice thing about religion if you lose yourself deeply enough in it is that eventually you ll be able to feel justified in most anything you want to do y know your right fortunately for everyone around me i m not religious i m a christian just as the moslems aren t religious and the buddhists aren t religious who is religious then brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j ai vus j ose croire n etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux au moins je suis autre is that it ends rousseau
talk.religion.misc	re the fact of the theory in article apr njitgw njit edu dmu hertz njit edu david utidjian eng sci writes it is so simple i m surprised that this subject gets beat to death about once a month a quick glance in a dictionary would clear up of the confusion and bandwidth in this newsgroup reading stephen jay gould s essay evolution as fact and theory wouldn t hurt either it appears in hen s teeth and horse s toes then we could talk about really important things like why do men have nipples see gould s male nipples and clitoral ripples in bully for brontosaurus gee this is easy herb huston huston access digex com
talk.religion.misc	re what right in article apr ifi uio no joakimr ifi uio no joakim ruud writes recently i ve asked myself a rather interesting question what right does god have on our lives always assuming there is a god of course he is god in his infinite wisdom he made it perfectly clear that if we don t live according to his rules we will burn in hell well with what right can god make that desicion he is god let s say for the sake of argument that god creates every one of us directly or indirectly it doesn t matter what then happens is that he first creates us and then turns us lose well i didn t ask to be created god granted you the gift of life whether you were sinner or saint let s make an analogue if a scientist creates a unique living creature which has happened it was even patented does he then have the right to expect it to behave in a certain matter or die the scientist creates the living creature to examine it poke and prod it and learn about its behaviour he will kill it if it becomes a threat for example let s say the scientist creates a tyrannosaurus rex and it breaks free of its confines and starts devouring the population the scientist would not hesitate in killing it god creates us to be his loving companions he knows whether we are true in our love for him or not and he lets us know the consequences of rejecting him god cannot abide by sin by rejecting god a person becomes an enemy of god one that must be killed by him note i say that god and god alone is worthy to be judge jury and executioner we are not called to carry out such duties because we are not worthy who is god to impose its rules on us who can tell if god is really so righteous as god likes us to believe are all christians a flock of sheep unable to do otherwise that follow the rest god is god who are we to question the creator if you doubt god s doing in certain situations do you claim to know a better solution would you be playing the role of god hmmmmmmmmmmmm i just want to point out that this is not sarcasm i mean it how should one deal with a man who is convinced that he is acting according to god s will and who there jokke fore believes that he is doing you a favour by stabbing you in the back voltaire
talk.religion.misc	re history texts was ancient references to christianity date apr from russell turpin turpin cs utexas edu the diaries of the followers of the maharishi formerly of oregon are historical evidence are you confusing bhagwan rajneesh sp with the maharishi mahesh yogi here by any chance i think bhagwan was in oregon with all the rolls royces maharishi mahesh yogi founded transcendental meditation and does the yogic flying stuff bhagwan s group was a communal free sex kind of thing i think they both had beards though
talk.religion.misc	re a kind and loving god in article apr nntpd cxo dec com bittrolff evans enet dec com writes in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee writes btw david koresh was not jesus christ as he claimed how can you tell for sure three days haven t passed yet well where is he another false messiah shot down in flames matthew watch out that no one deceives you for many will come in my name claiming i am the christ and will deceive many matthew at that time if anyone says to you look here is the christ or there he is do not believe it for false christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect if that were possible see i have told you ahead of time do we listen sadly not all of us do peace be with you and condolences to the families of those lost at waco malcolm lee steve bittrolff the previous is my opinion and is shared by any reasonably intelligent person
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews in article tredysvr tredydev unisys com tom tredysvr tredydev unisys com tom albrecht writes in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee writes armed to the teeth a christian should not have to rely on physical weapons to defend himself a christian should rely on his faith and intelligence faith and intelligence tell me that when a druggie breaks into my house at night with a knife to kill me for the in my wallet a is considerably more persuasive than having devotions with him tom albrecht give him the leave the house and call the police that s what i would do i will not kill to protect mere possessions peace be with you malcolm lee
talk.religion.misc	laws of god was re a kind and loving god in article apr sei cmu edu dpw sei cmu edu david wood writes mlee ra royalroads ca malcolm lee writes these laws written for the israelites god s chosen people whom god had expressly set apart from the rest of the world the israelites were a direct witness to god s existence to disobey god after knowing that god is real would be an outright denial of god and therefore immediately punishable remember these laws were written for a different time and applied only to god s chosen people but jesus has changed all of that we are living in the age of grace sin is no longer immediately punishable by death there is repentance and there is salvation through our lord jesus christ and not just for a few chosen people salvation is available to everyone jew and gentile alike sorry if this is late for the thread but i thought god was supposed to be constant and never changing how do you reconcile this common christian view with the paragraph above god never changes he still loves us sending jesus was one of his attempts to reconcile with mankind the nature of god has not changed also while we re at it how do you reconcile a kind and loving god with the judeo christian view that sin was at one time immediately punishable by death was killing people for sinning god s way of showing kindness and love sinning in the face of god was punishable by immediate death there are several ot passages to back this up god is god he cannot tolerate the prescence of sin in his midst and the israelites knew this and still some of them chose to disobey and were destroyed were these people kind and loving themselves god gave them every break he could but in the end he really had no choice in the matter seeing as how we were failing to achieve salvation on our own he sent his son to die for us to be the ultimate sin offering now we live in the age of grace is the fact the he no longer does this an admission on his part of having made a mistake he sent his son as a consolation to us out of love now that we are living in the age of grace does this mean that for our sins god now damns us to eternal hell after we die rather than killing us immediately if so is this eternal damnation an example of a kind and loving god hey let s be fair for a moment here kind and loving does not mean a free ride there is an amount of give and take as in any relationship parents are supposed to be kind and loving but does that mean that children can do whatever they want not part of being a parent means administering punishment when the child is at fault part of being a parent means giving instruction god tests us through the trial of life such that we may grow stronger he teaches what is right and what is wrong the consequences of our actions are made clear to us be it heaven or be it hell if god did not follow through with what he has warned us about he would not be a very good parent in parenting if a parent issues a warning but does not follow through with it the children will not take that parent s words very seriously god does the same by telling us who have ears to hear what to do and what not to do by life s trials we see the folly of doing our own will rather than his he warns us about the consequences of rejecting him when it comes time for judgement do we follow him i will peace be with you malcolm lee just curious dave wood
talk.religion.misc	re a kind and loving god in article f jjowk quack kfu com pharvey quack kfu com paul harvey writes so do you adhere to the ten commandments jesus did and so do i peace be with you malcolm lee
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened in article apr utarlg uta edu b zaw utarlg uta edu stephen writes in article apr ccsvax sfasu edu f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu writes in article apr ccsua ctstateu edu parys ccsua ctstateu edu writes i told some friends of mine two weeks ago that koresh was dead the fbi and the batf could not let a man like that live he was a testimonial to their stupidity and lies deleted unfortunately i think you ve got it figured pretty well i also ask myself the question why did they plan for so many months why was this so important to them what was the government really up to why did they seal the warrant were they after koresh or were they after the first and second amendments among others allow me to play devils advocate a moment jg didn t expect to find you in the devil s role stephen but these are the times that try men s souls o what was called many months of planning was probably the intelligence collecting paperwork and interviews nine months as i understand it no doubt this accounts for a significant amount of the time as government efficiency in spending our tax dollars would certainly seek its absolute minimum in such an event but my gut instinct says there is more at hand it took some careful preplanning to demonize d k to such an extent the attack meshes well with more restrictive gun control legislation that seems to be the agenda of the day it also fits a pattern of increased government interference in personal religious beliefs randy weaver is now on trial o it s important to them because it justifies budgets no quarrel here the big bang theory is always apt at appropriation time they just don t have to possess a single motive o the warrant was sealed to keep from jeopardizing the the government s case i certainly think publication of the warrant undermines the government s case since it makes no claims of illegal action therefore the federal judge had reason to seal it but i am reminded of senator frank church s remark that secrecy is the trademark of a totalitarian government there is rarely sufficient motive to seal a warrant in a nation of free people o there was probably no one actually exercising oversite instead a system of bureaucratic rules has been set up for such incidents like computer programs these have to be debugged periodically especially when used in fringe areas cf the hostage rescue program therefore no one was in charge and no one can reasonably be held responsible how can i argue with irrefutable logic i have long suspected that the government has become a mindless machine and now you go and confirm my worst fears has it become a beast that is programmed simply to say kiss my toe and you get your piece of the pie i suspect bugs in the program arise when agents or those who love this critter have independent thoughts o what they were after generally speaking is protecting their jobs budgets and paychecks and watching terminator ii we waited days for our hostages to come home from iran we gave these people days died at the alamo died that day in waco yes seeds for a new republic and for rev and they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves why no burial is is that the bodies of the witnesses will be said to be property of the state or just a typical bureaucratic delay rev and they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them and make merry and shall send gifts one to another because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth stephen have you sensed that some have been rejoicing lately j stephen joe gaut in the super state it really does not f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu matter at all what actually happened remember the alamo truth is what the government chooses to remember waco tell you justice is what it wants to happen jim garrison new orleans la
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened in article apr utarlg uta edu stephen b zaw utarlg uta edu wrote in article apr ccsvax sfasu edu f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu writes in article apr ccsua ctstateu edu parys ccsua ctstateu edu writes i told some friends of mine two weeks ago that koresh was dead the fbi and the batf could not let a man like that live he was a testimonial to their stupidity and lies deleted unfortunately i think you ve got it figured pretty well i also ask myself the question why did they plan for so many months why was this so important to them what was the government really up to why did they seal the warrant were they after koresh or were they after the first and second amendments among others allow me to play devils advocate a moment jg o what was called many months of planning was probably the intelligence collecting paperwork and interviews o it s important to them because it justifies budgets o the warrant was sealed to keep from jeopardizing the the government s case o there was probably no one actually exercising oversite instead a system of bureaucratic rules has been set up for such incidents like computer programs these have to be debugged periodically especially when used in fringe areas cf the hostage rescue program therefore no one was in charge and no one can reasonably be held responsible baloney either the programmer or the people who decided to let their actions be governed by the program are clearly at fault if you neglect to do maintenance on your car and the steering goes out you are responsible for the death of all those kids on the sidewalk your car subsequently drives over on its own gene battin battin cyclops iucf indiana edu no sig yet
talk.religion.misc	re what part of no don t you understand in article rbh n hav kyle eitech com ekr kyle eitech com eric rescorla writes in article apr midway uchicago edu eeb midway uchicago edu writes a moment of silence doesn t mean much unless everyone participates otherwise it s not silent now is it non religious reasons for having a moment of silence for a dead classmate to comfort the friends by showing respect to the deceased to give the classmates a moment to grieve together to give the friends a moment to remember their classmate in the context of the school to deal with the fact that the classmate is gone so that it s not disruptive later yeah all well and good the fact is though that the pro school prayer types have tried to use a moment of silence as a way to get prayer back at my high school for instance our dear principal ended the moment of silence with amen i can certainly see opposing the amen but that doesn t require opposing a moment of silence i ll back off when they do does anybody else besides me see a vicious circle here i guarantee you the people who want school prayer aren t going to back off when they can t even manage to get a quiet moment for their kids to pray silently pro choice anti roe e elizabeth bartley abortions should be safe legal early and rare
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes in article wcscps cunews wcscps superior carleton ca mike richardson writes lots of good points re mormons in the us the founding fathers of the us were hardly great on religious freedoms at least one history i have read formed the opinion that they left for the us not to practice religious freedom but to practice religious intolerance bzzt thank you for playing you re confusing the puritans pilgrims with the founding fathers difference of years and a much different culture phill hallam baker phil fraering seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man
talk.religion.misc	re why did they behave as they did waco reading suggestion how come noone mentions eric hoffer when talking about fanatic behavior anymore phil fraering seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews in article gerry apr onion cmu edu gerry cmu edu gerry roston writes no a no knock warrant is in clear violation of the th amendment okay what about the fact that they were tipped off they shouldn t have opened fire right wrong think about this i am a drug dealer and my competition wants to do away with me they call me and tell me that the feds are on their way with a no knock warrant so being moronic sheep we wait with our guns holstered now instead of the feds in comes my competition and we re history the only acceptable answer to a no knock warrant is blazing guns i may sound paranoid but our government is out of control and killing a few federal officers make knock some sense back into it hmm the police strategy of bursting in with weapons drawn clearly marked as officers and yelling police repeatedly this is used every day to bust drug houses the idea is to awe the suspects into submission with surprise and display of firepowere in order to avoid a gun fight as for not knocking it s a sad necessity in many cases since the suspects will attempt to escape or even fight usually this strategy works if it didn t then it wouldn t be used so commonly now would it whether or not it was appropriate to use this strategy on the bd is not my point since i don t think any of us have enough information to make a clear judgement on this issue i merely point out that it is a valid strategy which is used every day furthermore we don t know of any substitute strategy capable of apprehending potentially dangerous and armed suspects do you suggest that the police always knock with guns holstered and never arrest any suspects until they have been allowed to inspect the officers s badges just what should the police do when apprehending potentially dangerous and armed suspects how far can they reasonably go to identiy themselves what do you suggest they can do which can t be faked by the competition even if you ve got deadly enemies who may pretend to be cops that s not an excuse to murder police in the case of the bd s there was almost definitely at most the paranoid delusion of deadly enimies who would pretend to be cops isaac kuo isaackuo math berkeley edu o twinkle twinkle little sig keep it less than lines big
talk.religion.misc	re what part of no don t you understand in article apr midway uchicago edu eeb midway uchicago edu writes in article rbh n hav kyle eitech com ekr kyle eitech com eric rescorla writes in article apr midway uchicago edu eeb midway uchicago edu writes a moment of silence doesn t mean much unless everyone participates otherwise it s not silent now is it non religious reasons for having a moment of silence for a dead classmate to comfort the friends by showing respect to the deceased to give the classmates a moment to grieve together to give the friends a moment to remember their classmate in the context of the school to deal with the fact that the classmate is gone so that it s not disruptive later yeah all well and good the fact is though that the pro school prayer types have tried to use a moment of silence as a way to get prayer back at my high school for instance our dear principal ended the moment of silence with amen i can certainly see opposing the amen but that doesn t require opposing a moment of silence i see it as the camel s nose i ll back off when they do does anybody else besides me see a vicious circle here i guarantee you the people who want school prayer aren t going to back off when they can t even manage to get a quiet moment for their kids to pray silently i m willing to take my chances on winning the whole thing personally ekr eric rescorla ekr eitech com what we ve got here is failure to communicate
talk.religion.misc	re what right in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee writes in article apr ifi uio no joakimr ifi uio no joakim ruud writes recently i ve asked myself a rather interesting question what right does god have on our lives always assuming there is a god of course he is god in other words the right of might in his infinite wisdom he made it perfectly clear that if we don t live according to his rules we will burn in hell well with what right can god make that desicion he is god in other words the right of might let s say for the sake of argument that god creates every one of us directly or indirectly it doesn t matter what then happens is that he first creates us and then turns us lose well i didn t ask to be created god granted you the gift of life whether you were sinner or saint in other words he can do it he did it and your in no position to argue about it let s make an analogue if a scientist creates a unique living creature which has happened it was even patented does he then have the right to expect it to behave in a certain matter or die the scientist creates the living creature to examine it poke and prod it and learn about its behaviour he will kill it if it becomes a threat for example let s say the scientist creates a tyrannosaurus rex and it breaks free of its confines and starts devouring the population the scientist would not hesitate in killing it god creates us to be his loving companions he knows whether we are true in our love for him or not and he lets us know the consequences of rejecting him god cannot abide by sin by rejecting god a person becomes an enemy of god one that must be killed by him note i say that god and god alone is worthy to be judge jury and executioner we are not called to carry out such duties because we are not worthy in other words you better do what this god wants you to do or else who is god to impose its rules on us who can tell if god is really so righteous as god likes us to believe are all christians a flock of sheep unable to do otherwise that follow the rest god is god who are we to question the creator if you doubt god s doing in certain situations do you claim to know a better solution would you be playing the role of god in other words its his game he made the rules and if you know whats good for you you ll play his game his way
talk.religion.misc	what is a christian was re davidians and compassion in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee writes in article f dutxh quack kfu com pharvey quack kfu com paul harvey writes in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee writes if one does not follow the teachings of christ he is not christian too easy that would exclude most self proclaimed christians do you follow the ten commandments as a matter of fact yes i do or at least i strive to i will not be so proud as to boast that my faith is i am still human and imperfect and therefore liable to sin thankfully there is opportunity for repentence and forgiveness god be with you malcolm lee it sounds like you re modifying your definition of christian to anyone who strives to follow the teachings of christ do i read you correctly and just what constitutes strive did jesus say this and define just what striving means can you give an example of striving that is insufficient to qualify one as a christian and thus condemns one to eternal damnation in fiery torture do you self proclaim yourself a christian and if so on what basis
talk.religion.misc	re rw is robert weiss the only orthodox christian in article librba byuvm bitnet librba byuvm bitnet writes robert you keep making references to orthodox belief and saying things like it is held that cf kermit thread on what exact body of theology are you drawing for what you call orthodox who is that holds that luke meant what you said he meant whenever your personal interpretation of biblical passages is challenged your only response seems to be that one needs merely to look at the bible in order to see the truth but what of those who see biblical things differently from you are we to simply assume that you are the only one who really understands it just curious rick anderson librba byuvm bitnet when robert refers to the orthodox he is talking about the historical position of the christian faith such things are derived from biblcal texts through the centuries by the apocolic fathers of the faith you are right that people read things differently in the bible and this is alright in parts like parables and such forth however when it comes to the essential doctrines of the historical orthodox christan beliefs there is only one correct way to read it for example either the doctrine of the trinity is true or it is false yes people read the texts differently but only one position is true they both cannot be according to the text the doctrine is true and has always existed therefore when people like joseph smith come along with a vision and thinks he can undo centuries of a doctrine that is supported by the bible people consider him a cult
talk.religion.misc	commandments i the basics why should anyone check let s restrict this to christians why do we want to find commandments in the books regarded as scripture what s going on i will pass on psychologizing answers whether dismissive or more open as not the kind of issue to deal with here the question is what is the theological point involved and it has been quoted at me often enough by those who don t believe i take it seriously that jesus is said to have said if you love me you will obey my commands john i am like any christian the slave of christ and it is my will that i should do as he wills me to do i am also or instead his younger brother but still under his direction though we both call god abba christians therefore will try to find what it is that their lord commands them and discovering it will feel obligated to do it or to confess their failure readers here may set aside the theologizing jargon such as slaves of christ the point is that adherents of a religion will read the texts whether classified as inspired or not that are held up as models in an effort to find application to their own situations this practice ranges from devotional reading of sermons and the like to the exegesis of canon ical scripture as the word of god and at the highest pitch this leads to a question of whether we can find in inspired scripture something that can act as absolute guidance for our actions the problem is in finding out just what it is our lord commands i am going to set aside for this essay one major direction in which christians have looked for these commands namely christian tradition that is not because i reject tradition but because my primary audience in this essay is protestants who deny tradition a determinative value in favor of the witness of scripture the question i want to deal with is what commandments can we find from our lord in scripture and that turns out to be a hard question if any of my protestant inquisitors would like to turn the discussion to the authority of tradition i can accomodate them unlike most protestants episcopalians admit claims from a scripture b reason and c tradition on roughly equal standing earlier in john than my quote above we read john i give you a new commandment love one another this is the only place in the nt where christians are given an explicit commandment with the context commenting on its imperative mode pronouncement by jesus at the same meal so we readers infer since it is not in john but in the synoptics jesus says take this bread this is my body mark cf matthew luke corinthians the mode is imperative greek labete and hence this too is a commandment in both cases we have to infer that the command is directed to a wider circle than the immediate collocation of disciples because we judge the evangelist s point in mentioning it with the disciples by then mostly or entirely dead is that we are expected to follow this as a commandment from our lord in the case of communion paul s mention at least this is probably true of the evangelists also implies an ongoing ritual liturgy in which these words operate to bind christians to the original command to his disciples as a continuing commandment to the christian community i am entirely comfortable with this inference but i must point out that it is there between us and the occasion on which jesus spoke the command i take it as a clear inference at the very least the evangelist s notion that all christians are called to love one another in jesus command directed at the disciples but i have to call attention to the inference the command cannot apply to me without the generalization from the specific context of its statement to my own context as a disciple of christ all reading of scripture has to make such inferences to get any sense out of the text whatsoever this is a general problem in reading these texts we cannot read them at all without our own understanding of our native languages in which we normally read the translated texts and without some appreciation of the original context and at points the original languages when english misleads us i am going to presume in what follows that we have the general problem of how to read scripture under control i don t really think this is true but it will suffice for my current purposes i will address only the issues that arise when we have already coped with the understanding of a year old text from another world than the one we live in questions at that level only introduce more reser vations about the commandments issue than will be found stipulating that we can read the texts as the original audience might have done among the reasons we have for seeing john s agapate allelou as a general commandment not merely an instruction by jesus to this disciples on that one occasion and one linking it to the synoptic great commandment is that we have criticism from jesus about limiting our love to those whom we congenially associate with in matthew ff we read you have learnt how it was said you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy but i say to you love your enemies in fact the leviticus context quoted does not say hate your enemy it is merely the common human presumption and leviticus is at pains to say that the love should extend to strangers amongst the people of israel luke in expanding on this same q context goes on to have jesus say even sinners love those who love them all of this suggests quite strongly i d say that limiting the scope of the new commandment is not quite what jesus has in mind in short inference leads me to generalizing the actual text to a command that is in force on christians and with objects not limited to other christians trickier than the agapate allelou or institution of communion there is the case of the great commission where matthew mark the twelve are sent out to evangelize proclaim that the kingdom of heaven is close at hand the verb is imperative ke russete but the context is rather specific to the twelve and there are further specifiers as in do not turn your steps to pagan territory and do not enter any samaritan town the lukan parallels are even more specific to jesus final journey to jerusalem which make it harder to see this generalizing to all christians than the previous examples that hasn t prevented christians from making such an inference what i have to call attention to is that such inference is not justified in the text nor unlike the first two cases i cite by the rhetoric of the evangelist urged on the reader still paul seems to have felt obliged to proclaim that the kingdom of heaven is close at hand even contrary to jesus instructions to the to the gentiles to the ends of the earth so christians after him have also taken this as a commandment in the sense of john do i accept this i don t know it is surely rather speculative but you see how the ripples of inference spread out from the text that is the pretext christians may infer a general commandment applicable to all from what is presented in the gospels as a specific occasion i do not necessarily object to this kind of generalization but i insist that people who make it must have an understanding that they are reasoning at some considerable length from what we actually have in scripture there are assumptions involved in this reasoning and these are not themselves scriptural though people will do their best to justify their assumptions by other references to scripture which simply adds more inference into the mix let s move on to the great commandment that we should love god with our whole hearts and minds and souls this is perhaps the synoptic equivalent of john s agapate allelou and yet it is not presented as a commandment in our texts rather the context is controversy with the pharisees to cite matthew ff but when the pharisees heard that he had silenced the sadducees they got together and to disconcert him one of them put a question master which is the greatest commandment of the law it is by no means obvious here though i accept it as such that jesus answer is meant to be a commandment to christians he is answering a polemic from his enemies mark s account in casts the answer in a far more positive light as so the scribe in this version says far more important than any holocaust i need to point out that this word originates in the context of animal sacrifice forget the nazis for this or sacrifice luke is intermediate he has a lawyer posing the question to disconcert jesus and gets the good samarian parable for his pains luke the contexts here are so confusingly various that one could be forgiven for drawing no inferences in no account is this said as if it were obviously to be taken as a commandment binding on christians though i think it an entirely reasonable conclusion in each case that jesus thinks it to be so the point is that our mental gears have to grind a cycle or so to get to any conclusion from all of this about what we are commanded to do by jesus and all of this is contingent on our understanding the point of jesus use of the torah in the all quite different gospel accounts and the application of such a context to us the different contexts among the synoptics are curious it should be noted that only in luke do we get the fixing of this command by the parable of the good samaritan we may look for an analogous intent in matthew where gives the golden rule as the meaning of the law and the prophets and where we may also hear an echo of hillel saying the same a generation before jesus if we make these associations which i think are entirely reasonable we are again indulging in inference the texts do not explicitly support us rather we read the texts as having this kind of inter relationship current literary theory calls this intertextuality my discussion of why the agapate allelou has to apply beyond the community of the disciples and beyound the circle of christian believers applies again here to buttress a conclusion that this is despite the presentation not saying so explicitly a commandment to christians few christians would disagree with my conclusions but i must point out that they are conclusions they depend on rather elaborate chains of reasoning that are simply not present in the texts themselves the contextual problem keeps coming up more and more severely as we look at those sayings of jesus that are not so universally taken by christians as commandments and we get some really hard cases take divorce mark is pretty clear the man who divorces his wife and marries another is guilty of adultery against her cf luke except that matthew has an escape clause except in the case of fornication this seems to be a rather clear commandment whether or not we take matthew s reservation and some christians to this day take it so but some don t at least in practice this is rather peculiar it is not as if jesus were not explicit about this whereas he says nothing at all about some of the things people gnash their teeth over how is it possible if the commands of christ are clear that matthew can so disagree with the other evangelists of the synoptic tradition i m going to continue this examination into ever murkier waters but this is enough to start with the theme is finding commandments in scripture is an exercise in inference our inferences are informed by our assumptions that is our own cultural biases i have so far identified a very few commandments that are generally accepted by all christians and yet in these already some of the difficulties start to surface it is these difficulties i want to discuss in my next essay on this topic the divorce commandment already strikes at some of the difficulties i see almost no evidence that the people who are so eager to find commandments to condemn me with spend any time at all writing nasty screeds to soc couples or misc legal about the horrors or viciousness of divorce or demanding that us law refuse to allow it or refuse unrepentant divorcees places in their churches that is not to say that divorce doesn t enter into consideration in general it is most definitely a matter of concern in even the most liberal church circles for example a wildly liberal episcopalian priest of my aqauintence in a wildly liberal diocese has recommended to a couple who approached him to marry them that they have a private secular ceremony before a judge so that the public ceremony he celebrated need not go through an agonizing examination by officials who would just as soon not take on this role of interpreting the commands we are faced with as christians this in a church that was effectively created by a famous divorce michael l siemon i say you are gods sons of the mls panix com most high all of you nevertheless or you shall die like men and fall mls ulysses att com like any prince psalm
talk.religion.misc	re what part of no don t you understand in rbh n hav kyle eitech com ekr kyle eitech com eric rescorla writes at my high school for instance our dear principal ended the moment of silence with amen an extremely good example of circumstantial evidence every time these right wing control freaks start spouting about prayer in schools i get this nagging commentary from the sermon on the mount matt and when you pray do not imitate the hypocrites they love to say their prayers standing up in the synagogues and at the street corners for people to see them i tell you solemnly they have had their reward but when you pray go to your private room and when you have shut your door pray to your father who is in that secret place but no they want public prayers the better to manipulate children amen indeed when the pro school prayer types stop trying to sneak religion in i ll stop opposing everything that even looks remotely like religion thank you i hope you don t mind if i say amen to this michael l siemon i say you are gods sons of the mls panix com most high all of you nevertheless or you shall die like men and fall mls ulysses att com like any prince psalm
talk.religion.misc	apr god s promise in psalm in god whose word i praise in god i trust i will not be afraid what can mortal man do to me psalm niv
talk.religion.misc	re christians above the law was clarification of pe in article apr ualr edu nunnally acs harding edu john nunnally writes when are we going to hear a christian answer to this question in paraphrase on what or whose authority do christians proclaim that they are above the law and above the prophets major and minor and not accountable to the ten commandments of which jesus clearly spoke his opinion in matthew what is the source of this pseudo doctrine who is the pseudo teacher who is the great deceiver ok here s at least one christian s answer jesus was a jew not a christian in this context matthew makes sense matt do not think that i jesus came to abolish the law or the prophets i did not come to abolish but to fulfill jesus lived under the jewish law however he was the culmination of the promises of the prophets he came to fulfill the prophecies and fully obey god s purposes verse says for truly i say to you until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law until all is accomplished the key to this verse imho is the last phrase jesus as the fulfillment of the law accomplished what the law was supposed to accomplish jesus did not say that he was the fulfillment of the law and unless i m mistaken heaven and earth have not yet passed away am i mistaken and even assuming that one can just gloss over that portion of the word of jesus do you really think that all is accomplished verse whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments and so teaches others shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven but whoever keeps and teaches them he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven taken in the context of jesus teaching jewish people about living lives under the law this makes sense then why didn t jesus say any jew who annuls in v are you saying that all of jesus recorded words mean nothing to gentiles are you really saying that jesus only spoke for and to the jews jesus didn t mention your name does that mean he wasn t speaking to you when you read the words of jesus do you think he is speaking to someone other than you in general it appears that jesus is responding to some criticism he must have received about doing away with the law that was not jesus intent at all you said above that jesus was the fulfillment of the law are you saying that does not mean doing away with the law he had come to earth to live the law as it should be lived and fulfill the promises made by god to his people all the way back to eve gen the serpent will bruise your heel but he will bruise his head gen jps i will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and hers they shall strike at your head and you shall strike at their heel gen nrsv i will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and hers he will strike your head and you will strike his heel gen kjv and i will put enmity between thee and the woman and between thy seed and her seed it shall bruise thy head and thou shalt bruise his heel looks like your translation has taken a few liberties with the word jesus appeared to be doing away with the law because he did not honor the traditions of men as equal to the law of god he regularly locked horns with the religious leaders of the day because he would not conform to their rules only god s law in the matthew passage jesus is defending his dedication to the law and defending himself against his accusors almost the entire sermon on the mount matt is dedicated to helping the jewish people understand the true intent of the law sweeping away the clutter which had been introduced by the pharasees and their traditions only helping the jewish people in galatians paul describes the relationship of jesus to the law in this way but before faith came we were kept in custody under the law being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed therefore the law has become our tutor to lead us to christ that we may be justified by faith but now that faith has come we are no longer under a tutor for you are all sons of god through faith in christ jesus i believe this says that after christ was revealed the law had served it s purpose i e our tutor to lead us to christ and now we are no longer under a tutor the law has been fulfilled as christ said he would do you are using your interpretation of paul as an argument against the clear words of jesus god the author of the old law and the christ man jesus are the same personality therefore the old law and the new testament the last will and testament of jesus are based on the same moral principles it makes sense that many of the principles in the old law are re expressed in christianity re expressed care to define that a bit better on the other hand now that the law has fulfilled it s purpose and what are heaven and earth gone away where did they go is all accomplished for example revelations explain please christians relate to god through christ not the law it also makes sense that new practices and new symbolisms were established to represent the mysteries of this new relationship i e baptism representing christ s death burial and resurrection rom the lord s supper as a memorial to his sacrifice i cor and sunday as a day of worship commemorating his resurrection matt ff acts again your interpretation of paul versus the clear word of jesus do you see any problems here when did heaven and earth go away when was all accomplished ok that s one christian s explanation i don t claim to have all these issues completely settled even in my own mind and i welcome other christians to offer other alternatives please excuse the long posting thanks for your interest if you have read this far
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews would someone be kind enought to document the exact nature of the evidence against the bd s without reference to hearsay or newsreports i would also like to know more about their past record etc but again based on solid not media reports my reason for asking for such evidence is that last night on larry king live a so called cult expert was interviewed from australia who claimed that it was his evidence which led to the original raid this admission if true raises the nasty possibility that the government acted in good faith which i believe they did on faulty evidence it also raises the possibility that other self proclaimed cult experts were advising them and giving ver poor advice a few years ago anson shupe and david bromley published strange gods the great american cult scare beacon boston and the new vigilantes anti cultists and new religions sage beverly hills both books suggested the possibility of tragic results if self proclaimed cult experts were ever taken seriously perhaps their diagnosis of the anit cult movement needs investigating in light of the waco tragedy
talk.religion.misc	re what part of no don t you understand in apr midway uchicago edu eeb quads uchicago edu e elizabeth bartley writes i can certainly see opposing the amen but that doesn t require opposing a moment of silence if the only people proposing a moment of silence are doing so as a sham to sneak in prayers then it must be opposed what the hell have prayers to do with public schooling i ask this question as a devout christian i ll back off when they do does anybody else besides me see a vicious circle here i guarantee you the people who want school prayer aren t going to back off when they can t even manage to get a quiet moment for their kids to pray silently their kids can bloody well pray any god damned time they want to and nothing on heaven or earth in government or the principal s office can prevent or in any other way deal with their doing so especially if the prayer is silent as bursting out into the shema yisrael or some other prayer might be construed as disruptive if audible no one ever prevented me from praying in public school they hardly even prevented me from masturbating in study hall i should have thought better of someone posting from a uchicago address how can you manage to say such nonsense without shame muslim students might have a complaint if they are prevented from setting out their rugs and doing the proper ablutions before prayer at the times specified in the qu ran jews would probably like the opportunity to daven with tefillim and whatever else they require at their appropriate times i do not see them complaining though muslims and jews have a case that no christian i have ever heard has been able to make the christian insistence on a public universal enforced moment of prayer h h h h h hsilence is nothing but the inquisition naturalized into the american context it is offensive to the gospel of christ michael l siemon i say you are gods sons of the mls panix com most high all of you nevertheless or you shall die like men and fall mls ulysses att com like any prince psalm
talk.religion.misc	re what part of no don t you understand in apr midway uchicago edu eeb quads uchicago edu e elizabeth bartley writes i can certainly see opposing the amen but that doesn t require opposing a moment of silence i already responded to this on one dimension but afterthoughts cause me to make another independent reply the problem with a moment of silence is that it is not an even handed way of allowing for religion amongst students in the public schools as i noted before muslims need more than a moment of silence in order to perform the prayers they are required by muhammad to do and at least orthodox jewish prayer also has requirements that are not addressed by this there is in fact a highly selective bias towards christian prayer in this moment of silence shit and that is especially bizarre in that christian prayer doesn t need this stuff a christain may pray totally incognito at any time to some extent this is true of muslims and jews as well what i intend in my first paragraph is that there are some characteristic forms of prayer in these religions which do need special times and or behavior which cannot be undertaken without an observer being able taking note of it a christian may pray at any time silently and without any trace of his activity being evident to others that may or may not be true of the other religious traditions amongst us certainly these tend to have some forms of prayer that would evidence differences from american protestant mainstream religion all that a moment of silence does is to allow that one tradition which doesn t need it to have a special place set aside in the public schools there is nothing in christian prayer that requires public forms or rugs or phylacteries or anything else at all visible to the outside world a christian student may and probably does pray at innumerable times during the day without anyone else knowing it that may also be true of non christians i am not claimng otherwise in the moment of silence it would still be difficult for the jews to gather and daven for the muslims to do their ablutions and find qiblah to mecca and engage in the prescribed forms but of course christians can do their thing and therefore the provision is nothing but a disguised attempt to encourage just that luckily there is a strong jewish presence in this country and i as a christian revere some of the jewish teachers i had in public schools and a growing muslim presence as well i can only hope that the political forces consequent on this will prevent the imposition of christian forms on non christians as far as i can see as a christian there is nothing in this moment of silence campaign but an attempt to use public social pressure to force children to adhere to a pattern that is biased towards christianity and as a christian i must protest such coercion for what it s worth i suspect that the coercion is not really targeted at the non christians it is yet another case of failure amongst christian parents in making their children prayerful so that they want the public schools to teach what they cannot manage to teach despite having all the opportunity in the world to do so if you have taught your children to pray they do not need a moment of silence in school if you have not managed to teach them the moment will only embarrass you give it up michael l siemon i say you are gods sons of the mls panix com most high all of you nevertheless or you shall die like men and fall mls ulysses att com like any prince psalm
talk.religion.misc	re merlin mithras and magick in article ss apmaths uwo ca ss apmaths uwo ca sultan sial says in article a si cunyvm bitnet a si cunyvm bitnet writes stuff about mithras deleted oh his b day was dec ahem i thought that saturnalia was celebrated by the romans at that time was mithras connected with this i also heard the romans had a large solar festival on this day because this day about days after the winter solstice was when you could notice a change in the shadows and be sure that the sun was indeed returning in fact i remember the latin phrase natalis solis invicti sp associated here i can t say for certain when saturnalia was since i can t locate my master holiday list i think it was weeks or so however charles hope a si cunyvm a si cunyvm cuny edu government by reporters media ocracy
talk.religion.misc	re merlin mithras and magick in article ss apmaths uwo ca ss apmaths uwo ca sultan sial says in article a si cunyvm bitnet a si cunyvm bitnet writes stuff about mithras deleted oh his b day was dec ahem i thought that saturnalia was celebrated by the romans at that time was mithras connected with this rome was under attack by barbarians they sent for advice to some oracle and she said worship cybele and you ll be saved they did they were cybele was the quintessential wiccan goddess there was her and her son lover attis yucky idea if you ask me ok the book says she was phrygian from the neolithic matriarchal society catal huyuk turkey worshipped st as black stone that kaaba in mecca ring a bell maybe carried to rome in bc to save them from hannibal it gets more interesting romans called her great mother magna mater could be the reason why so many of those mary statues in europe are black prob is connected to that ka aba they ve got in mecca rd cent ad she was supreme goddess in lyons france attis was castrated and formed into a pine tree she should be worshiped on mar in rome it was an ecstatic cult her priests wore drag worked themselves up in dance and castrated themselves in order to initiate to her lived their lives as women they wore make up and jewelry and the whole bit wow only other such primitive transsexualism i know of goes on in india where else where they do that castration thing under some meditation maybe i forget by now there s a book on that of course that excepts that weird russian romanian th cent xian cult that did all kinds of self castration too i forget their name charles hope a si cunyvm a si cunyvm cuny edu government by reporters media ocracy
talk.religion.misc	re that kill by sword must be killed by sword sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes and i find is extremely discusting to talk about politically incorrect actions and forget the actual tragedy think imagine your eight month old son dying in flames kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net we have reached the point in our society when there are certain crimes that are so heinous that to merely be accused with them one is automaticly considered guilty and deemed not to have any natural rights much less civil rights among these are drug abuse sexual perversion and political incorrectness today billary accused koresh of having sex with infants he had been accused of a number of differing crimes inconsistantly over the last two months but this is the first time i have heard that one i had heard child abuse but this is somewhat stronger it is fairly obvious that koresh was hiding behind the children and ironicly considering his apocalyptic dread believed enough in the american people s inherent goodness to believe he was protected it is truly amazing that all these people who days ago had never heard of the branch davidian now believe that he was suicidal crazy a child abuser and a immenant danger to others based solely on what the government spokespersons had said remember that these people have an awful lot to loose if it is found that they have screwed up but they don t have as much to lose as david koresh and his followers lost for in our society as it stands murder is not one of the heinous crimes cutter gloster via mind org chris all jobs are easy to the person who doesn t have to do them holt s law
talk.religion.misc	peace run welcome to the peace run you re invited to join in a global relay run and help light the way why the peace run there s a new spirit in the nineties a spirit of oneness a growing belief in the possibility of true global peace the goal of the sri chinmoy oneness home peace run is simple to bring this spirit forward in a concrete way to transform it into a reality in their own lives every other year thousands of men women and children from more than nations passing a flaming peace torch from hand to hand join together in a relay run that virtually circles the globe transcending political and cultural boundaries they go from nation to nation across mountains jungles and deserts carrying the message of brotherhood to all humankind each person who holds or runs with the peace torch lights a path for those who follow each time the peace torch changes hands the flame of oneness burns a little brighter until one day it will shine in the hearts and minds of every individual on earth making history the three peace runs since have achieved some historic break throughs in the middle east a landmark run crossed the egyptian israeli border in europe a precedent setting run linked eastern and western europe with russia in the united states mexico and canada entire cities were dedicated to the cause of world peace and in poland the peace torch was blessed by pope john paul ii speaking as one world leaders celebrities and you the peace run has won the support of leaders the world over presidents prime ministers religious leaders sports figures and entertainment personalities its message has spread to a half billion people though newspaper reports magazine articles and radio and tv broadcasts including specials on pbs mtv and nbc s today show i am happy to support your peace run for justice peace and reconciliation the world must know that god wants us to live amicably as brothers and sisters members of one family the human family god s family archbishop desmond tutu nobel peace prize winner how it all works peace run started with a five borrough relay in new york city on saturday april converging at various points to lead up to the opening ceremony outside the united nations dag hammarskjold building there runners from around the world were gathered for the fourth lighting of the peace torch from there peace torches are now being transported to over seventy countries for a series of concurrent international or cross country relay runs including the united states canada japan australia russia and eastern and western europe smaller runs will take place in the philippines mexico israel south america egypt and elsewhere in africa distance to be covered miles the peace run wil do much to inspire the hearts and stimulate the minds of those who support participate in witness or hear about the event carl lewis six time olympic gold medalist who s behind it the peace run is sponsored by the sri chinmoy marathon team an international running organization that believes sports can be a powerful instrument for promoting world peace each year the team puts on hundreds of athletic events including several world class ultramarathons marathons and triathlons in dozens of countries the peace run itself is inspired by the global peace ambassador sri chinmoy who has written and lectured extensively on peace offered hundreds of free peace concerts and met with countless world figures to advance the cause of international harmony the run is managed by peace runs international a non profit organization based in the united states take a step for peace the peace runs in and attracted nearly half a million participants we re expecting even more people to join peace run you can also join the run carrying the peace torch a few steps a few blocks or a few miles or you can come out and cheer the runners as they carry the torch through your community you can also join local celebrities and government officials in one of the thousands of welcoming ceremonies scheduled along the nation route your inner support is important too if you re a runner each time you go out you can dedicate your run to the cause of world peace the next step is yours make it one for peace for information contact peace runs international normal road jamaica ny usa tel fax peace run canada agricola street halifax nova scotia b k c tel fax or for the phone number or address of a peace run office in your town or country reply to this message by e mail
talk.religion.misc	re what right stuff deleted but message is he is god in other words the right of might he is god in other words the right of might god granted you the gift of life whether you were sinner or saint in other words he can do it he did it and your in no position to argue about it one that must be killed by him note i say that god and god alone is worthy to be judge jury and executioner we are not called to carry out such duties because we are not worthy in other words you better do what this god wants you to do or else who is god to impose its rules on us who can tell if god is really so god is god who are we to question the creator if you doubt god s doing in certain situations do you claim to know a better solution would you be playing the role of god in other words its his game he made the rules and if you know whats good for you you ll play his game his way careful there you make god out to be some spoiled little deity that when he can t have his way takes his ball and goes home now that you mention it naw can t be right makes sense john morris jwmorris netcom com san diego ca i have no opinion but if i did
talk.religion.misc	re a kind and loving god in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee writes jesus comments about how christians have to follow the ot deleted i will clarify my earlier quote god s laws were originally written for the israelites jesus changed that fact by now making the law applicable to all people not just the jews gentiles could be part of the kingdom of heaven through the saving grace of god i never said that the law was made obsolete by jesus exodus how many people have you put to death for working on the sabbath if anything he clarified the law such as in that quote you made in the following verses jesus takes several portions of the law and expounds upon the law giving clearer meaning to what god intended if you ll notice he also reams into the pharisees for mucking up the law with their own contrived interpretations they knew every letter of the law and followed it with their heads but not their hearts that is why he points out that our righteousness must surpass that of the pharisees in order to be accepted into the kingdom of heaven people such as the pharisees are those who really go out of their way to debate about the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin they had become legalistic rule makers religious lawyers who practiced the letter of the law but never really believed in it leviticus how as that medium rare steak last night i think you will agree with me that there are in today s world a lot of modern day pharisees who know the bible from end to end but do not believe in it what good is head knowledge if there is nothing in the heart leviticus what did you wear to work friday christianity is not just a set of rules it s a lifestyle that changes one s perspectives and personal conduct and it demands obedience to god s will deutromony i can you can now justify discrimination some people can live by it but many others cannot or will not that is their choice and i have to respect it because god respects it too right god be with you she is kcochran nyx cs du edu b c d e f g k m r s t tsakc my thoughts my posts my ideas my responsibility my beer my pizza ok because i m the daddy that s why
talk.religion.misc	re koresh doctrine of question for those of you who seem to be fundamentalists stephen tice the cotera joe gaut et al apologies if i ve mislabelled any of you i ve only started reading t r m since the bd disaster but i know the cotera is a fundy and are defending koresh and his beliefs as an example of true christianity under persecution from the the big bad secular state what is your opinion of his reported sexual habits if the reports are accurate what iyo does this say about the quality of his christianity or are the allegations just part of the big cover up i remain deliberately neutral on the cause of the fire i wouldn t put it past koresh to have torched the place himself on the other hand if the propane tank accident story is correct i wouldn t put it past the fbi to try to cover its ass by claiming koresh did it i hope your government does a very thorough investigation of the whole debacle and i ll be disappointed if a few heads don t roll the authorities seem to have botched the original raid and in the matter of the fire are guilty of either serious misjudgement or reckless endangerment steve watson a k a watson sce carleton ca carleton university ontario this opinion my opinion assert this opinion carletonu opinion somebody touched me making everything new burned through my life like a bolt from the blue somebody touched me i know it was you bruce cockburn
talk.religion.misc	re to rob lanphier you just don t get it do you brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli writes me brian k please step aside before you get run over bk there is no truck me turn around at look bk no me look you will be healthier if you do take a look at the oncoming truck bk no explain to me why trucks exist me turn around or you will run over bk no i won t because i like hiking and tomorrow is tuesday me you blind fool why do you choose ignorance you have nothing to lose if you look but if do not look you will certainly lose your life i do not want to see you squashed all over the road bk it is my life to lose i rather not look besides a truck running over me will not harm me and by the way i really have an open mind i think the discussion is more like this me happily picking daisies by the side of the road bc dancing on the double yellow broken line come on out and play on the highway me why bc the highway was put here for people to be on we must work towards fulfilling its purpose me but bc look the highway has been here for several generations look i have a story about how it was actually created by a divine being and several people actually saw elvis bless it me but bc look are you going to come out here or not me but bc you probably think that picking daisies is fun well you re wrong me where in blazes did you get this silly idea that you re supposed to be playing on the highway you ll get yourself killed bc better to be killed on the highway than to live an empty life off of it besides you re just asking pointless questions you know you really want to be playing on the highway too you re just denying it me if you want to get run over then fine but i d much rather enjoy the daisies if you please bc why do you shun me like this the creator of the highway will flatten you with a steamroller if you don t see the light and come join me me well if he s gonna be that way about it maybe i want to get as far from the highway as i can bc incoherent but quite familiar righteous sputtering brian c don t you see i do not believe that your god is a real or even b beneficial in fact i believe your religion is imaginary and carried to extremes harmful i would like to help you see its shortcomings and perhaps someday finally become strong enough to see it for what it is an elaborate lie kept alive by the elite priesthood to keep the masses properly submissive to their influences please offer me an argument that s more convincing than you just don t believe cos you don t want to everything you ve said so far could apply equally to any religion why do you believe yours is the real one note that saying it s the only one that promises eternal life or something like that isn t an answer to my question unless you show that a no other religion promises eternal life and b it is unarguably true that eternal life must be a reality brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j ai vus j ose croire n etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux au moins je suis autre is that it ends rousseau
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article r hkv horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article r ls mo fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes this is quite different from saying employing force on other people is immoral period unfortunately from time to time we are obliged to do this immoral thing for reasons of self preservation and so we have to bear the moral consequences of that since both statements to all intents and purposes say effectively the same thing are you serious two statements one of which says that use of force in the given situation is moral and the other of which says it is not moral say effectively the same thing yes when you tag on the unfortunately then to all intents and purposes you are saying the same thing then delete the unfortunately now tell me that the two statement say effectively the same thing and to save everyone a couple of trips round this loop please notice that we are only obliged to use force to preserve self we can choose not to preserve self which is the point of pacifism would you say this of any two statements one saying x is moral and the other saying x is immoral how would you decided when two statements x is moral x is immoral actually conflict and when they say effectively the same thing what they prescribe that one should do is a pretty good indicator and in this case they don t prescribe the same things so and lead one to do precisely the same thing then either both statements are doublespeak or none they might lead you to do the same thing but the difference is what motivates pacifism so they obviously don t lead pacifists to to the same thing that s not true you could formulate a pragmatic belief in minimum force and still be a pacifist if the minimum is great but one is always trying to get as close to force as possible under that belief not the same as force is immoral period but still tending to pacifism if you don t think the use of force is immoral why minimise its use jon
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article apr st andrews ac uk nrp st andrews ac uk norman r paterson writes in article r m mo fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article apr st andrews ac uk nrp st andrews ac uk norman r paterson writes just as well then that i m not claiming that my own moral system is absolute jon list of references stretching from here to alpha centauri deleted jon and i thought to impress with my references ok so you don t claim to have an absolute moral system do you claim to have an objective one i ll assume your answer is yes apologies if not i ve just spent two solid months arguing that no such thing as an objective moral system exists jon
talk.religion.misc	re ancient references to christianity was albert sabin in article c ztju fkx news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes why is the nt tossed out as info on jesus i realize it is normally tossed out because it contains miracles but what are the other reasons it is not tossed out as a source but would it be regarded as unbiased and independant
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli writes and we do not end perfect either we are never perfect can you name one person young or old past or present that you deem perfect krishna bg miller i am the self abiding in the heart of all creatures i am their beginning their middle and their end bg miller i am the beginning the middle and the end of creations arjuna of sciences i am the science of the self i am the dispute of orators bg miller whatever is powerful lucid splendid or invulnerable has its source in a fragment of my brilliance what use is so much knowledge to you arjuna i stand sustaining this entire world with a fragment of my being bg miller i am time grown old i can provide more names of perfect people should just one be insufficient
talk.religion.misc	theory on david koresh my theory is that koresh was seriously wounded in the initial gunbattle and died on day of the siege on day of the siege he rose from the dead and periodically appeared to his followers and the fbi over the next days living with someone who s risen from the dead isn t easy as timmy baterman s father in pet sematary could attest so after days they did what baterman did shot themselves and burned the place to the ground consistent with the facts isn t it did anyone actually see koresh between day and day david w ash what profits a man if he keeps his eternal soul ash sumex aim stanford edu when he could have lived life to the full and home been forgiven at the end of it all anyway david merritt a k a the red shark
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died brian kendig says and since i felt reasonably sure of myself i decided to start analyzing the bible very closely that was the catalyst to my break with my faith though it was a long and difficult effort brian kendig also declares christ means chosen the person chosen to fulfill the prophesies of the old testament and bring about a new age of hope and spiritual growth for mankind christ is greek for messiah messiah means annointed one annoint means to rub with oil i e to anoint by impl to consecrate the major prophet daniel uses the word messiah in daniel chapter how closely did you analyze the bible looks as if you didn t get past the first word so was the catalyst to break your faith the priests who interpreted the bible for you did you ever do what the bereans did to paul s teachings in acts
talk.religion.misc	theists and objectivity can a theist be truly objective can he be impartial when questioning the truth of his scriptures or will he assume the superstition of his parents when questioning i ve often found it to be the case that the theist will stick to some kind of superstition when wondering about god and his scriptures i ve seen it in the christian the jew the muslim and the other theists alike all assume that their mothers and fathers were right in the aspect that a god exists and with that belief search for their god occasionally the theist may switch religions or aspects of the same religion but overall the majority keep to the belief that some creator was behind the universe s existence i ve known muslims who were once christians and vice versa i ve known christians who were once jewish and vice versa and i ve even known christians who become hindu yet throughout their transition from one faith to another they ve kept this belief in some form of higher being why it usually all has to do with how the child is brought up from the time he is born the theist is brought up with the notion of the truth of some kind of scripture the bible the torah the qur an etc he is told of this wondrous god who wrote or inspired the scripture of the prophets talked about in the scripture of the miracles performed etc he is also told that to question this as children are apt to do is a sin a crime against god and to lose belief in the scrip ture s truth is to damn one s soul to hell thus by the time he is able to read the scripture for himself the belief in its truth is so ingrained in his mind it all seems a matter of course but it doesn t stop there once the child is able to read for himself there is an endeavor to inculcate the child the right readings of scripture to concentrate more on the pleasant readings to gloss over the worse ones and to explain away the unexplainable with mystery circular arguments self evdent facts and truths unreasoning belief and fear of hell is the meat of religion the child must eat of every day to doubt of course means wrath of some sort and the child must learn to put away his brain when the matter concerns god all of this has some considerable effect on the child so that when he becomes an adult the superstitions he s been taught are nearly impossible to remove all of this leads me to ask whether the theist can truly be objective when questioning god hell heaven the angels souls and all of the rest can he for a moment put aside this notion that god does exist and look at everything from a unbiased point of view obviously most theists can somewhat especially when presented with mythical gods homeric roman egyptian etc but can they put aside the assumption of god s existence and question it impartially stephen atheist libertarian pro individuality pro responsibility jr and all that jazz
talk.religion.misc	apr god s promise in psalm they looked unto him and were lightened and their faces were not ashamed psalm
talk.religion.misc	re rw is robert weiss the only orthodox christian in article librba byuvm bitnet librba byuvm bitnet writes rick anderson writes ra robert you keep making references to orthodox belief and saying ra things like it is held that cf kermit thread on what ra exact body of theology are you drawing for what you call orthodox orthodox is a compound word it comes from orthos straight true right and from doxa opinion doctrine teaching i use orthodox to refer to right teaching right teaching is derived from letting god speak to us through the bible this can be from reading simple truths in the scriptures and by using the bible to interpret the bible ra who is that holds that luke meant what you said he meant i think that it is apparent from reading the scriptures that are pertinent luke records christ s promise to the repentant thief who hung on an adjacent cross truly i say to you today you will be with me in paradise but was it not until later that christ rose from the dead and ascended to heaven if christ himself was not in heaven until sunday how could the repentant thief have been there with him the answer lies in the location of paradise when jesus died apparently paradise was not exalted to heaven until easter day jesus refers to it in the middle of the story of the rich man and lazarus as abraham s bosom to which the godly beggar lazarus was carried by the angels after his decease luke thus abraham s bosom referred to the place where the souls of the redeemed waited till the day of christ s resurrection it was not yet lifted to heaven but it may well have been a section of hades hebrew sheol reserved for believers who had died in the faith but would not be admitted into the glorious presence of god in heaven until the price of redemption had actually been paid on calvary or even that none would precede the presence of jesus back to glory with the father doubtless it was the infernal paradise that the souls of jesus and the repentant thief repaired after they each died on friday afternoon but on sunday after the risen christ had first appeared to mary magdalene john and her two companions matthew presumably he then took up with him to glory all the inhabitants of infernal paradise including abraham lazarus and the repentant thief we read in ephesians concerning christ ascending on high he led captivity captive he gave gifts unto men verse continues but what does he ascended mean but that he also descended to the lowest parts of the earth i e to hades verse adds he who descended is the same as he who ascended above all the heavens presumably he led the whole band of liberated captives from hades i e the whole population of preresurrection paradise up to the glory of heaven ra whenever your personal interpretation of biblical passages is ra challenged your only response seems to be that one needs merely to ra look at the bible in order to see the truth but what of those who ra see biblical things differently from you i think that this characterization is faulty whenever my personal interpretation is questioned i usually give a reason as for those that see things differently please put forward where there is a valid difference and we can discuss it i seem to be seeing from you the notion that any difference in how one views the bible is somehow legitimate except or course for the stuff that i glean from it put forward a contrary view and perhaps we can have a discussion on that topic but to decry something that i put forward without putting forward something else to discuss and to dismiss what i put forward while giving credence to other alleged views that have yet to be put forward is simply being contentious ra are we to simply assume that you are the only one who really ra understands it if you believe that something that i have drawn from scripture is wrong then please show me from scripture where it is wrong simply stating that there are other views is not a proof show it to me from scripture and then we can go on robert weiss psyrobtw ubvms cc buffalo edu
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli wrote kent i am not accusing you of evil things jesus is accusing you and it is not only you that he is accusing he is accusing everyone me you and everyone in the world is guilty whether one sees the light or does not seen the light has nothing to do with whether we do evil things we do them regardless hmm it seems that this is the core of christianity then you have to feel guilty and then there s this single personality that will save you from this universal guilt feeling brian i will tell you a secret i don t feel guilty at all i do mistakes and i regret them however i ve never had this huge guilt feeling hanging over my shoulder if things happen wrong i will try to learn from the mistakes and go on this all is a very clear indication that you need a certain personality type in order to believe and adjust to certain religious doctrines and if your personality type is opposite then you are not that easily attached to a certain world view system so do you see jesus s point christians are not perfect nonchristians are not perfect nonchristians do not want to come into the light of jesus because they will see all the problems in their lives and they will not like the sight it is an ugly thing to see how far we have fallen from jesus s perspective do you think you want to know how really ignorant you are do you think brian kendig wants to know do you think i want to know ego verses the truth which do you choose all i know is that i don t know everything and frankly speaking i don t care life is fun anyway i recognize that i m not perfect but that does not hinder me from have a healthy and inspiring life there are humans that subscribe to the same notion the nice thing is that when you finally shake off this huge burden the shoulders feel far more relaxed cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re to rob lanphier in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli wrote my hope is that brian will look and will see the ramifications of the truck coming towards him my hope is that brian will want to step out of the way my fear though is that brian will instead choose to glue himself to the middle of the highway where he will certainly get run over but if he so chooses he so chooses and there is nothing i can do beyond that to change his mind for it is his choice but at this very moment brian hasn t gotten even that far he is still at the point where he does not want to look sure he moves his eyeball to appease me but his head will not turn around to see the entire picture so far he is satisfied with his glimpse of the mountains off in the distance the problem is that you imagine him inside this huge wall unable to see reality while he imagines the same about you clearly we have a case where relativity plays a big role concerning looking at opposite frames of reality cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re a kind and loving god in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee wrote do not think that i have come to abolish the law or the prophets i have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them i tell you the truth until i will clarify my earlier quote god s laws were originally written for the israelites jesus changed that fact by now making the law applicable to all people not just the jews gentiles could be part of the kingdom of heaven through the saving grace of god i never said that the law was made obsolete by jesus it wasn t jesus who changed the rules of the game see quote above it was paul cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re a kind and loving god in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee wrote and does it not say in scripture that no man knows the hour of his coming not even the angels in heaven but only the father himself dk was trying to play god by breaking the seals himself dk killed himself and as many of his followers as he could btw god did save the children they are in heaven a far better place how do i know by faith it seems faith is the only tool available for emotional purposes due to the tragedy as such it maybe fills a need however i m getting tired to see children dying in pain in sudan due to lack of food and assuming that god takes these sufferers to heaven after a painful death cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re the universe and black holes was re years kv iastate edu warren vonroeschlaub writes let s say that we drop a marble into the black hole it races ever faster towards the even horizon but thanks to the curving of space caused by the excessive gravity as the object approaches the event horizon it has further to travel integrating the curve gives a time to reach the event horizon of infinity so the math says that nothing can enter a black hole this is not correct the event horizon is not the center of the black hole but merely the distance at which the escape velocity is equal to the speed of light that is the event horizon is a finite radius keith
talk.religion.misc	re the universe and black holes was re years salem pangea stanford edu bruce salem writes is this zeno s paradox no zeno s paradox is resolved by showing that integration or an infinite series of decreasing terms can sum to a finite result nothing can get out of a black hole because the escape velocity is the speed of light i don t know how time dialation can prevent matter spiraling in from getting to the event horizon can any one explain how matter gets in well suppose a probe emitting radiation at a constant frequency was sent towards a black hole as it got closer to the event horizon the red shift would keep increasing the period would get longer and longer but it would never stop an observer would not observe the probe actually reaching the event horizon the detected energy from the probe would keep decreasing but it wouldn t vanish exp t never quite reaches zero i guess the above probably doesn t make things any more clear but hopefully you will get the general idea maybe keith
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews in article l to sf juts ccc amdahl com agr ccc amdahl com anthony g rose writes i don t necessarily agree with pat robertson every one will be placed before the judgement seat eventually and judged on what we have done or failed to do on this earth god allows people to choose who and what they want to worship i m sorry but he does not ever read the first commandment i have apparently you haven t the first commandment doesn t appear to forbid worshipping other gods yahweh s got to be at the top of the totem pole though carl j lydick internet carl sol gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol carl disclaimer hey i understand vaxen and vms that s what i get paid for my understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level or below so unless what i m saying is directly related to vax vms don t hold me or my organization responsible for it if it is related to vax vms you can try to hold me responsible for it but my organization had nothing to do with it
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews in article rdlsf vi agate berkeley edu isaackuo skippy berkeley edu isaac kuo writes hmm the police strategy of bursting in with weapons drawn clearly marked as officers and yelling police repeatedly this is used every day to bust drug houses the idea is to awe the suspects into submission with surprise and display of firepowere in order to avoid a gun fight as for not knocking it s a sad necessity in many cases since the suspects will attempt to escape or even fight usually this strategy works if it didn t then it wouldn t be used so commonly now would it how often is it used when the convoy carrying the brigade is visible for miles before it reaches the place that s to be searched carl j lydick internet carl sol gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol carl disclaimer hey i understand vaxen and vms that s what i get paid for my understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level or below so unless what i m saying is directly related to vax vms don t hold me or my organization responsible for it if it is related to vax vms you can try to hold me responsible for it but my organization had nothing to do with it
talk.religion.misc	re another assertion about macroevolution in article apr rambo atlanta dg com wpr atlanta dg com bill rawlins writes macroevolution has not been observed in action chris colby s example s of speciation with all due respect to chris in the plant example he gave do not consitute macroevolution put another way there are an incredibly huge number of events necessary to bring non life to homo sapiens how many have we directly observed special creation has not been observed in action bill rawlin s assertions that man was created in his present form do not count as creation put another way there are an incredible amount of species of the planet how many species have we directly observed being created by a god or gods bill rawlins wpr atlanta dg com chris colby email colby bu bio bu edu my boy he said you are descended from a long line of determined resourceful microscopic tadpoles champions every one kurt vonnegut from galapagos
talk.religion.misc	re the gospels josephus etc and origins in article apr rambo atlanta dg com wpr atlanta dg com bill rawlins writes the macroevolutionary tree is full of holes please show me a few intermediate forms between reptile and bird are you so ignorant that you have never heard of archaeopteryx bill rawlins wpr atlanta dg com the special creation theory is nothing but holes please show me a species poofed into existence by your god i have never seen this chris colby email colby bu bio bu edu my boy he said you are descended from a long line of determined resourceful microscopic tadpoles champions every one kurt vonnegut from galapagos
talk.religion.misc	re branch athiests cult was rawlins debunks creationism please excuse the length of this post but for personal reasons i must go on at some length in article r dd innqfk ctron news ctron com king ctron com john e king writes scharle lukasiewicz cc nd edu scharle writes for your information i checked the library of congress catalog and they list the following books by francis hitching i believe i ve just discovered an anthopological parallel in my many discussions with the fundies their main tactic is to discredit my sources they shrilly bleat barclay s claims are bogus mckenzie s arguements are a sham oehler position is specious jouon s ideas are fiction darby is a fraud howard is a counterfeit rotherham s claims are vapid ahha now with the branch athiests zealots we have the following hitching s claims are bogus gorman argument s are a sham jastrow s position is specious stanley s ideas are fiction durant is a fraud thorpe is a counterfeit hoyle s claims are vapid are we witnessing the founding of a new major religion or has it really been there all along more deleted perhaps it would be instructive to see what my original post had to say in article apr news nd edu scharle lukasiewicz cc nd edu scharle writes in article r dglinnkv ctron news ctron com king ctron com john e king writes kv iastate edu warren vonroeschlaub writes neither i nor webster s has ever heard of francis hitchings who is he please do not answer with a well known evolutionist or some other such informationless phrase he is a paleontologist and author of the neck of the giraffe the quote was taken from pg jack for your information i checked the library of congress catalog and they list the following books by francis hitching earth magic the neck of the giraffe or where darwin went wrong pendulum the psi connection the world atlas of mysteries followed by my signature i was extremely careful in this posting not to say anything which was not factual i made no judgement about hitching or the quality of the quotation attributed to him i have not read any of the books listed although i did glimpse briefly at earth magic i saw nothing that i would care to comment on it was solely in response to an inquiry by warren about hitching and your assertion that he is a paleontologist i do not know whether he is or is not a paleontologist i do not claim to know anything about him except this listing of his publications however i get the decided impression that i am being included among the branch atheists on the basis of this post if that impression is mistaken please let me know otherwise i should let you know that the implications are very offensive to me and i would certainly appreciate a clarification of your posting tom scharle scharle irishmvs room g computing center scharle lukasiewicz cc nd edu university of notre dame notre dame in usa
talk.religion.misc	re what part of no don t you understand in c y e j panix com mls panix com michael siemon writes in apr midway uchicago edu eeb quads uchicago edu e elizabeth bartley writes i can certainly see opposing the amen but that doesn t require opposing a moment of silence if the only people proposing a moment of silence are doing so as a sham to sneak in prayers then it must be opposed what the hell have prayers to do with public schooling i ask this question as a devout christian uh oh michael you typed hell and capitalized it to boot now peter nyikos will explain that you re not a real christian i ll back off when they do does anybody else besides me see a vicious circle here i guarantee you the people who want school prayer aren t going to back off when they can t even manage to get a quiet moment for their kids to pray silently their kids can bloody well pray any god damned time they want to and nothing on heaven or earth in government or the principal s office can prevent or in any other way deal with their doing so especially if the prayer is silent as bursting out into the shema yisrael or some other prayer might be construed as disruptive if audible no one ever prevented me from praying in public school they hardly even prevented me from masturbating in study hall bzzt sorry michael the nyikos inquisition pointed out that i was hell bound after one mildly scurrilous pun on revealing oneself admitting to masturbation well i m just shocked mp
talk.religion.misc	re tieing abortion to health reform is clinton nuts exuptr exu ericsson se patrick taylor the sounding board writes in article c te cm news cso uiuc edu parker ehsn cen uiuc edu robert s parker writes read the whole thing there s some pretty hot stuff in here apparently you didn t read the whole thing you continue to miss the point skinner sp csrd uiuc edu gregg skinner writes parker ehsn cen uiuc edu robert s parker writes deletions soapbox on if it s ok to pay for legal procedures with gov t money then let s get the government to pay for counselling that provides abortion alternatives let s get the government to pay for adoption fees let s get the government to pay for all the things that make abortion necessary why not they are certainly legal procedures counselling that only provides alternatives to abortion would be just as biased as counselling that only provides abortion information how about providing counselling that will give a woman help in finding what she is comfortable with your adoption funding idea may be a good one any idea if it is feasable the only way hell is involved is that it is going to be a good skiing resort before i give in to paying for abortions i believe it is wrong and i won t pay for it without a gripe i m not for making them unlawful i d rather spend money on saving lives than a bunch of investigations and court hearings and all this other crap we are spending our time on you know who s really cleaning up on all this abortion stuff lawyers i say let s pass laws to make adoption cheaper easier and infinitely more supportive of the birth mother let s eradicate the stigma reduce the cost pay the price for life making adoption easier on the birth mother may help reduce abortion but it will not eliminate the need for it abortion is not done just because the mother can t care for the child and doesn t feel good about giving it to strangers abortion is done because the mother can not afford the pregnancy soapbox off a person has a right to do anything that does not interfere with the rights of another person cool enough you ll have more trouble defining the terms in that statement than getting people to agree to it for example i perceive i have a right not to participate in what i feel is murder i don t think the government should either on the other hand since we are having trouble proving that it is murder there is no right to stop someone from doing it if they so choose either by legal means or harassment of course persuasion is allowed but watch that line between persuasive and harassing the second part is a definition of a person a simplistic explanation is that a person is a member of society most normal adult human beings are good examples of people most children over two years old are people as well the simple way of determining this is that you can have a conversation with them it is actually more complicated than that but i have no desire to spend the time it would take to explain it to you read the thread why is bodily autonomy so important for more explanation and justification but why is your definition authoritative enough for the whoe us surely you can understand there are other definitions with equal right of consideration then please justify why being human automatically makes something valuable and why that includes the unborn if the government refused to fun abortions due to the qualms of a minority of the population then it would then have to pay far more in the delivery of babies whose mothers wanted an abortion but could not afford one and now that baby will also require care for years true that needs to be fixed it is part of the problem if clinton has a medical program to get underway let him address this too it is cheaper in the long run to save lives later they will be productive members of society at least if his plan works no they are not guaranteed to become productive members of society even if they do that is many years in the future until which they are a burden on someone or society there is also the matter of the mother forcing her to carry a pregnancy to term at a critical time in her life could prevent her from being a productive member of society actually i was refering to the minority that objects to abortion not those who object to federal funding i admit i did not say it very clearly and apologize for that to refuse to fund abortions is to remove that choice from some women and add the additional burden to society for no reason no this is really flawed logic it would be like me saying i was born with a disfigured face and i want cosmetic repair it is discriminatory that i cannot make that choice and so you must pay for it that a person has a right to make a choice does not imply legally or otherwise that someone else should foot the bill sic for that choice ok look it s like this we are footing the bill maybe they will take choice a maybe they will take choice b maybe they will take choice c they can t afford any one of them if they take choice a we d have to pay them say if they take choice b it would cost us if they take choice c it will cost us now and a hell of a lot more for the next years which one sounds the most realistic for us to be willing to pay for now some people happen not to like choice a other people happen not to like choice c paying for it that is c has been around and paid for for years even though it means we spend a lot of money we can t in conscience refuse to pay for it now a has been around and is perfectly legal but it hasn t been funded in the past now a is going to be funded but some people object they don t like the idea of their tax money going to pay for choice a so we could refuse to fund a at all then those women who can t afford any of those choices will be forced to take choice b or c which will cost all of us more money most of us don t see any reason at all why more money should be spent to the effect of removing personal choice from some women the alternative is to fund a if that is what the mother chooses we will also still fund b and even c if that is what the mother chooses however some women will certainly choose a and that will then save us we otherwise would have had to spend your taxes are not being raised to fund a choice you object they are being lowered because we will fund a choice that is legal despite your objections to it actually your taxes are not really going to go down as i m sure you would point out but the amount that is saved in that area can help out in another like our massive debt if you disagree then give us some reasons given that abortion is legal and the right to abortion is supported by the majority of the population it is not justifiable to refuse abortions to women who can not afford them who will simply require even greater funds for the delivery you would force upon them i refuse to pay more taxes to remove choice from those women just because you object to a legal medical procedure what i say objection to the procedure is irrelevant uncle bill doesn t pay for breast augmentation facelifts etc why abortions it s elective surgery those other procedures you mention only cost money there is no savings in other procedures that would be required down the road without them in fact there could be additional costs down the road because of them this is quite different from the case of abortion as for your argument you are enticing a young girl to kill a baby by making it affordable and refusing to make the alternative affordable too so you are just as guilty of removing a choice by withholding funds think about it a poor girl is pregnant and abortions are federally funded what s she gonna do what choice have your plans given her your kind of double talk really makes me ill this is bullshit we are not refusing to make the alternative affordable too if we refused to pay for the more expensive choice of birth then your statement would make sense but that is not the case so it doesn t if clinton tried to block funding for pre natal care and delivery or left it out of his health care plan i would certainly object i would also be quite surprised pro choice ha pro abortion really fits in your case yes but probably not your definition of it or for the reasons you think if you re gonna fund one choice you have to fund them all at the very least you stupid fuck we do want to fund all the choices you are the one who wants to not fund all the choices imho if we fund the adoption choice right meaning not just throwing money at it but cutting costs esp legal costs we won t need abortion anymore your humble opinion is still wrong even with easy adoption there is still the fact that pregnancy takes several months months in which a young woman could need to be getting an education like finishing high school entering college finishing college getting a job things that are much harder to do if you have to take a break for a few months things that have a massive impact on her future productivity have a right to life a fetus is not a person you can not have a conversation with them ah let s kill the mentally incompetant as well or how about people we just don t like since we can t have a conversation with them you can have a conversation with the mentally incompetant and even though you personally may refuse to have a conversation with people you just don t like it is still possible for others to have a conversation with them it is not possible for anyone to have a conversation with a fetus they are not biologically independent nor was my son at the age of weeks he was breastfed and would not take a bottle just what does biologically independent mean i ll be happy to punch any definition full of loopholes he was still biologically independent at least to the same extent you are now he consumed nutrients and digested them in the normal manner he breathed his own air a fetus on the other hand gets it s nutrients already digested by the mother it gets its oxygen from the mother as well that is not biologically independent their awareness is questionable aha you admit it is questionable yet you are willing to kill it even if it may be very aware i suggest you re think your viewpoint awareness is only part of what makes a member of society it is the minimal conceivable requirement yet many people seem to think that something without awareness could still be important enough to justify the suffereing of a true member of society i keep asking but i still haven t seen a real justification for why the life of a non sentient creature should be worth the suffering of a sentient being i haven t read every response on the threads i ve been asking on yet so we ll see if i see one later they have no experiences in the real world to make up a personality this is also true of quite a few unix programmers so what d anyone who can program in unix has a lot of experiences in the real world rob
talk.religion.misc	re rfd misc taoism in article apr megatek com tims megatek com writes let us not limit misc taoism to philosophy but if we don t limit it to something the discussion degenerates into a big amorphous glob hmm are you a taoist imposing limits does do something useful it gives you something to go beyond it seems to me that these questions more properly fall into the category of general metaphysics i would prefer any misc taoism to deal more closely with topics and works more closely associated with at least semi orthodox taoism with established classic works definitely included and works like mantak chia s argued about i tend to be a bit critical of any stratification of taoism i especially tend to frown on any suggestion that orthodoxy or classics have any special place in tao i think neo taoism should be excluded or get its own group what i mean by this is humpty dumpty taoism in which taoism means whatever a poster says it means this alt taoism could also be a refuge for debates about what taoism really means or speculations on sexual alchemy etc so rather than debate what taoism really means you are suggesting that we take someone else s word for it and work thusly i d rather not thank you what s happening is that that the term taoism is becoming completely polluted and trivialized like the words magic alchemy zen etc by writers appropriating the word to mean whatever they want this is seen by the spate of new age books entitled the tao of this that and everything else whereas you of course have a clear idea of what the word means can you tell the tao any other comments ideas i look forward to seeing them on balance i say let misc taoism rip and let the chips fall where they may wonderful idea it just gets filled up with college freshmen asking about the tao of sex then it will have been a failure and people will post to these groups just as they do now only if you choose to define failure in that way or to define it at all i believe in the flesh and the appetites seeing hearing and feeling are miracles and each part and tag of me is a miracle walt whitman
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died in article c ymir fne blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes you said everyone in the world that means everyone in the world including children that are not old enough to speak let alone tell lies if jesus says everyone you cannot support that by referring to a group of people somewhat smaller than everyone that s right everyone even infants who cannot speak as yet even a little child will rebelliously stick his finger in a light socket even a little child will not want his diaper changed even a little child will fight nap time so far as jesus saying everyone a certain ruler asked jesus good teacher what must i do to inherit eternal life why do you call me good jesus answered no one is good except god alone ken the book of romans states that we are born sinners we do not grow into being a sinner we sin because we are sinners the common mistake even in christian circles is to think the reverse true so for as surely as you grew to look like you parents you not only inherited their appearance but also their sin nature it goes with being human even though a new born is innocent as can be his sinful nature will surely manifest itself more explicity as he gets older for as surely as he grows hair on his head and teeth within his mouth he will show the signs of his innate sin by rebelling against mommy and daddy with that loud proclamation no
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article r i e fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article r hkv horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article r ls mo fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes this is quite different from saying employing force on other people is immoral period unfortunately from time to time we are obliged to do this immoral thing for reasons of self preservation and so we have to bear the moral consequences of that since both statements to all intents and purposes say effectively the same thing are you serious two statements one of which says that use of force in the given situation is moral and the other of which says it is not moral say effectively the same thing yes when you tag on the unfortunately then to all intents and purposes you are saying the same thing then delete the unfortunately now tell me that the two statement say effectively the same thing and to save everyone a couple of trips round this loop please notice that we are only obliged to use force to preserve self we can choose not to preserve self which is the point of pacifism o k got you i concede your point though the word obliged strongly implies that one must sometimes use force a further rephrasing would give you the distinction you mention however if i have you right a pacifist would not even go on to say unfortunately etc would you say this of any two statements one saying x is moral and the other saying x is immoral how would you decided when two statements x is moral x is immoral actually conflict and when they say effectively the same thing what they prescribe that one should do is a pretty good indicator and in this case they don t prescribe the same things so yes fair enough though why confuse things by saying that one is somtimes obliged if the real meaning is that one is never obliged and lead one to do precisely the same thing then either both statements are doublespeak or none they might lead you to do the same thing but the difference is what motivates pacifism so they obviously don t lead pacifists to to the same thing that s not true you could formulate a pragmatic belief in minimum force and still be a pacifist if the minimum is great but one is always trying to get as close to force as possible under that belief not the same as force is immoral period but still tending to pacifism if you don t think the use of force is immoral why minimise its use if you don t think that it is immoral period frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
talk.religion.misc	re albert sabin in article r houinnop titan ucs umass edu cma titan ucs umass edu colin ma writes i just started reading this newsgroup and haven t been following the thread i m just curious how did this thread get started with albert sabin and changed into something else what was it about sabin that initiated a religious discussion colin its just variation within a thread the variation at times has been so great that speciation has occurred so albert sabin is the common ancestor of several threads some of which have themselves speciated on a separate topic i subscribed to t o just recently albert sabin existed at that time so i have no clue as to its origins maybe the abiogenesists have an answer i might also point out that evolution is aimless thus why albert sabin evolved into a religious discussion is probably unexplainable rich fox anthro usouthdakota
talk.religion.misc	re branch athiests cult was rawlins debunks creationism in article r dd innqfk ctron news ctron com king ctron com john e king writes scharle lukasiewicz cc nd edu scharle writes for your information i checked the library of congress catalog and they list the following books by francis hitching i believe i ve just discovered an anthopological parallel in my many discussions with the fundies their main tactic is to discredit my sources they shrilly bleat possibly the parallel just stems from your tending to use bad sources anyway don t you think that similarity is rather shallow you re only looking at the surface at the way of argumentation and now you should perhaps go a little deeper and try to find the difference for example find out whether you can find real science done by hitching if you can t will you then admit that your attempt at quoting an authority has backfired thomas kettenring dan kaiserslautern germany johannes scotus eriugena the greatest european philosopher of the th century said that if reason and authority conflict reason should be given preference and if that doesn t sound reasonable to you you ll just have to accept it
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article c v rb f darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes i ve seen referrences to creation vs evolution several times in a a and i have question is either point of view derived from direct observation can either be scientific i wonder if the whole controversy is more concerned with the consequences of the truth rather than the truth itself both sides seem to hold to a philosophical outcome and i can t help wondering which came first as i ve pointed out elsewhere my view of human nature makes me believe that there is no way of knowing anyhthing objectively all knowledge is inherently subjective so in the context of a a would you take a stand based on what you actually know to be true or on what you want to be true and how can you tell the difference translation of the above paragraph i am uninformed about the evidence for evolution please send me the talk origins faqs on the subject thomas kettenring dan kaiserslautern germany johannes scotus eriugena the greatest european philosopher of the th century said that if reason and authority conflict reason should be given preference and if that doesn t sound reasonable to you you ll just have to accept it
talk.religion.misc	re theists and objectivity trajan cwis unomaha edu stephen mcintyre writes can a theist be truly objective can he be impartial when questioning the truth of his scriptures or will he assume the superstition of his parents when questioning i think that if a theist were truly objective and throws out the notion that god definitely exists and starts from scratch to prove to themselves that the scriptures are the whole truth then that person would no longer be a theist it usually all has to do with how the child is brought up from the time he is born the theist is brought up with the notion of the truth of some kind of scripture the bible the torah the qur an etc he is told of this wondrous god who wrote or inspired the scripture of the prophets talked about in the scripture of the miracles performed etc he is also told that to question this as children are apt to do is a sin a crime against god and to lose belief in the scrip ture s truth is to damn one s soul to hell thus by the time he is able to read the scripture for himself the belief in its truth is so ingrained in his mind it all seems a matter of course you re missing something here there are people who convert from non theism to theism after being brought up in a non theist household i don t have any statistics as to how many though that would be an interesting thing to know i think that religion is a crutch people are naturally afraid of the unknown and the unexplainable people don t want to believe that when they die they are dead finished that there is nothing else after that and so religion is kind of a nice fantasy religion also describes things we don t know about the universe things science has not yet described and it also gives people a feeling of security that if they just do this one thing and everything will be ok that they are being watched over by a higher power and its minions this has a very high psychological attraction for quite a few people and these people are willing to put up with a few discrepancies and holes in their belief system for what it gains them this is why i think it s kind of useless to try too hard to convert theists to atheism they are happy with their fantasy and they feel that other people will be happy with it too they can t accept the fact that there are people who would rather accept the harsh reality that they are running from anyway i m getting kind of carried away here but my point is that theism doesn t have to be ingrained into a child s mindset for that person to grow up as a theist although this happens far too often theism is designed to have its own attractions atheist libertarian pro individuality pro responsibility jr and all that jazz nanci if you know and are sure of the author of this quote please send me email nm w andrew cmu edu if you are one in a million then there are and a half of you in nyc
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is oxymoron in article a kb b w w anarky tch org melchar anarky tch org melchar writes it took someone this long to figure that out what is aluminium siding i keep seeing references to it something to do with railway lines perhaps e mail reply please i ll never find it otherwise norman
talk.religion.misc	re christians above the law was clarification of pe in article c kow e z mailer cc fsu edu dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu darius lecointe writes jesus was a jew not a christian if a christian means someone who believes in the divinity of jesus it is safe to say that jesus was a christian on the first day after christmas my truelove served to me leftover turkey on the second day after christmas my truelove served to me turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey days deleted flaming turkey wings pizza hut commercial and m tlu a gic bait ken arromdee arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews on tue apr gmt fcrary ucsu colorado edu frank crary said pmy vivaldi acc virginia edu pete yadlowsky writes pmy anyway i ve often wondered what business followers of christ pmy would have with weapons fc didn t christ tell his disciples to arm them selves shortly fc before his crusifiction i believe the exact quote was along the fc lines of if you have something sell it and buy a sword if you have a purse it was fc certainly christ said fc think not that i am come to send peace on earth i came not to fc send peace but the sword for i am come to set a man at variance fc against his father and the daugher against her mother fc matthew yes he said this but the sword that jesus brought was the sword of the word of god which divides between those that believe and those who do not even right down a family mark mark towfiq business urgent towfiq microdyne com fax other towfiq justice medford ma us the earth is but one country and mankind its citizens baha u llah
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli writes even though a new born is innocent as can be his sinful nature will surely manifest itself more explicity as he gets older ah so you admit newborns are innocent then you cannot say everyone is a sinner about the only way top get out of this one is to claim that a newborn is a sinner despite having not committed any sins which is rather odd on the first day after christmas my truelove served to me leftover turkey on the second day after christmas my truelove served to me turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey days deleted flaming turkey wings pizza hut commercial and m tlu a gic bait ken arromdee arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu
talk.religion.misc	re ancient references to christianity was albert sabin in ren a q morrow stanford edu salem pangea stanford edu bruce salem writes in article c ztju fkx news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes why is the nt tossed out as info on jesus i realize it is normally tossed out because it contains miracles but what are the other reasons it is not tossed out as a source but would it be regarded as unbiased and independant this brings up another something i have never understood i asked this once before and got a few interesting responses but somehow didn t seem satisfied why would the nt not be considered a good source this might be a literary historical question but when i studied history i always looked for firsthand original sources to write my papers if the topic was on mr x i looked to see if mr x wrote anything about it if the topic was on a group look for the group etc if the topic is on mr x and mr x did not write anything about it barring the theistic response about the bible being divinely inspired which i can t adequately argue wouldn t we look for people who ate worked walked talked etc with him if someone was at an event wouldn t they be a better reporter than someone who heard about it second hand i guess isn t firsthand better than second hand i know there is bias and winners writing history but doesn t the principle of firsthand being best still apply mac michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody can explain everything to anybody g k chesterton
talk.religion.misc	re burden of proof note talk origins removed from crossposting as this had no business going there in the first place in r b hg aurora engr latech edu ray engr latech edu writes if i make a statement that god exists loves me etc but in no way insist that you believe it does that place a burden of proof upon me no but you re not achieving anything either if you don t want to argue the point you re stating why do you bother stating it if you insist that god doesn t exist does that place a burden of proof upon you no read the alt atheism faq to find out why i give no proofs i only give testimony to my beliefs well enough if i feel interested i might even listen i will respond to proofs that you attempt to disprove my beliefs i won t the task is impossible and i don t have to do it in the first place why should i even bother to change or disprove your beliefs mats strong apatheist andtbacka disclaimer it s great to be young and insane
talk.religion.misc	re rw is robert weiss the only orthodox christian in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli writes so rick why not read the bible for yourself it is written in plain english decide for yourself it that would imply the singular yet there are many translations of the bible many of which differ in choice of wording and hence can lead to different interpretations btw have you also read the koran vedas etc plain english translations are available decide for yourself
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli writes to you it shouldn t matter if you do evil things or good things it is all meaningless in the end anyway so go rob a bank go tell someone you dislike that he is a dirty rotten slime bag what s restraining you generally reciprocation
talk.religion.misc	re to rob lanphier in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli writes brian it doesn t offend me if you decide to reject jesus christ i only wish you would make that decision after you learn who jesus is have you rejected buddha if you have did you really learn who buddha is before making the decision
talk.religion.misc	re davidians and compassion in article e e bm fm juts ccc amdahl com agr ccc amdahl com anthony g rose writes surely you are not equating david koresh with christianity the two are not comparable er why not
talk.religion.misc	cybele and transgender sexualism charles hope writes rome was under attack by barbarians they sent for advice to some oracle and she said worship cybele and you ll be saved they did they were cybele was the quintessential wiccan goddess there was her and her son lover attis yucky idea if you ask me ok the book says she was phrygian from the neolithic matriarchal society catal huyuk turkey worshipped st as black stone that kaaba in mecca ring a bell maybe carried to rome in bc to save them from hannibal response is there some relation between the name cybele and the phenemenon of the sibyl your paragraph above seems to indicate there might be my understanding is that islam was founded on the remains of a goddess cult or two many muslims would not like to hear that you it gets more interesting romans called her great mother magna mater could be the reason why so many of those mary statues in europe are black prob is connected to that ka aba they ve got in mecca rd cent ad she was supreme goddess in lyons france attis was castrated and formed into a pine tree she should be worshiped on mar in rome it was an ecstatic cult her priests wore drag worked themselves up in dance and castrated themselves in order to initiate to her lived their lives as women they wore make up and jewelry and the whole bit only other such primitive transsexualism i know of goes on in india where else where they do that castration thing under some meditation maybe i forget by now there s a book on that of course that excepts that weird russian romanian th cent xian cult that did all kinds of self castration too i forget their name response i d love to get details or references on any of the above my own exploration of this issue has only extended to a brief examination of the zuni berdache the zuni man woman by will roscoe university of new mexico press probably has some interesting things to say about them i ve yet to procure it any details or references on ecstatic cults in rome india russia romania christian too which exhibit any type of transsexualism or transvestitism male or female though i expect mostly the former will be found thanks for your interesting posts charles will love come as you like shall be the whole of the law the abyss thyagi nagasiva thyagi houseofkaos abyss com house of kaos ironwood dr san jose ca fr nigris on divination web telnet seismo soar cs cmu edu
talk.religion.misc	re ancient references to christianity was albert sabin actually if mr x had something to gain by his claims his account of the events would nmot be the most respected case and point the resurrection by claiming that the resurrection actually happened the early preachers were able to convert many to christianity however if you read mathew and the case for the resurrected saints who walked around jerusalem and appeared to many people you would realize that other historians josephus for one would have reported on it all if it happened the fact that the bible speaks of events of such great magnitude that they would have been noticed taken with the fact that they are not reported on by historians could only mean that the bible contains many made up stories
talk.religion.misc	re waco information accuracy in article r mflinnak crcnis unl edu e p unl edu edgar pearlstein wrote an example is the fbi report that several of the bodies found in the rubble had bullet wounds the local coroner who is independent of the fbi has so far found no bullet wounds according to cnn last night saturday he has now found bullets in two of the corpses in the head that would indicate that the bullets were aimed at killing the humans cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli wrote hmm it seems that this is the core of christianity then you have to feel guilty i think i see where you are coming from kent jesus doesn t view guilt like our modern venacular colors it feelings have nothing to do with guilt feelings arise from the state of being guilty feeling and guilt are mutally exclusive feelings are a reaction from guilt jesus is talking about the guilt state not the reaction let me give you an example have you ever made a mistake have you ever lied to someone even a little white lie have you ever claimed to know something that you really didn t know have you ever hated someone have you ever been selfish are you guilty of any one of these the answer is of course yes you are guilty period that is it what jesus is getting at no big surprise feelings do not even enter the picture consider jesus s use of the word guilt as how a court uses it i ve done all those things and i ve regretted it and i learned a lesson or two so far an aspirin a good talk with your wife or a one week vacation has cured me no need for group therapy or strange religions cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli wrote christ is greek for messiah messiah means annointed one annoint means to rub with oil i e to anoint by impl to consecrate the major prophet daniel uses the word messiah in daniel chapter how closely did you analyze the bible looks as if you didn t get past the first word so was the catalyst to break your faith the priests who interpreted the bible for you did you ever do what the bereans did to paul s teachings in acts brian does all this mean that you have to be well versed in ancient greek hebrew and aramaic in order to understand the core of christianity i hope you are not catholic because my christian upbringing was based on the teachings of luther and the one of the core messages was basically that you don t need to know latin in order to learn about salvation btw your statement would also eliminate about of all the christians in the world as well cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli wrote in article c ymir fne blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes you said everyone in the world that means everyone in the world including children that are not old enough to speak let alone tell lies if jesus says everyone you cannot support that by referring to a group of people somewhat smaller than everyone that s right everyone even infants who cannot speak as yet even a little child will rebelliously stick his finger in a light socket even a little child will not want his diaper changed even a little child will fight nap time oh boy get a small baby and figure out how much brain power they have the first months cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died in article c ar ldt blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee wrote in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli writes even though a new born is innocent as can be his sinful nature will surely manifest itself more explicity as he gets older ah so you admit newborns are innocent then you cannot say everyone is a sinner about the only way top get out of this one is to claim that a newborn is a sinner despite having not committed any sins which is rather odd this all would also implicate that in order for the sinning month old baby to get forgivance he or she has to ask for help from jesus somehow i find this a little bit amuzing cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re christian meta ethics russell turpin as is his wont has raised some interesting issues in his struggle with the christian texts and the christians unfortunately he seems to be hoping for simplicity where it is not available the lukewarm stew he detects may well be an inevitable result of the divine mixing himself up with a bunch of losers such as humanity also unfortunately perhaps i have a deadline in two weeks the responsibility for which prevents me in good conscience from writing a more considered response and fully entering the fray as it were let me then say what i can briefly the two commandments are rules they are merely rules that are so vague that they are practically devoid of meaning this point for the net browsers who also still read books is pursued throughly in kaufmann critique of religion and philosophy the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself can be viewed in part as reminding man that he is not god and cannot act as if he has ultimate responsibility this is a theological statement worthy of barth dr turpin dd may wear the black robe of geneva yet indeed many traditions present an interpretation where believers are supposed to interpret loving one s neighbor as following various other rules and relying on their god to make things come out right precisely because it would be wrong for man to assume such ultimate responsibility once again we are confronted with good sounding goo that means whatever the reader wants it to mean this requires the assumption that all interpretations are equally valid that there is no way of reasonably distinguishing among them i wouldn t make that assumption i don t think it is a reasonable assumption and who is to say that this interpretation is twisted there are many passages in the bible that in their most straightforward reading show the christian god behaving in just this way michael and i and others read the bible with christian glasses among the things that this should imply is that the nt informs the ot even to the point of dominanting it some points in the ot ceremonial dietary laws are explicitly abrogated by the nt texts to drive russell turpin s point with adequacy one needs to begin with nt texts probably from matthew and probably about damnation just trying to help this part is i discover what most moves me to post mls i am a radical christian only in that i take the gospel seriously no michael the conservative christians also take the gospel seriously what differentiates you is the way you interpret the gospel russell turpin s no here is misplaced not to say inappropriate michael s self description much govern the equation of radical liberal which seems implied by russell turpin is wrong radical conservatives are possible if sadly lacking in numbers at present thomas merton was a radical even though conservative in some ways st francis was a radical similarly how many examples are needed mls why don t i and the myriads of other christians like me mls tell you something about christianity michael s question gets to a heart of the matter klingons have two hearts so my metaphor is not mixed just extraterrestrial russell turpin in an earlier post had said that michael michael s theological positions actually didn t tell him much about christianity dean simeon responds this time gently what do you mean more direct perhaps would have been what could you possibly mean the implied rhetorical effort to separate michael from the tradition is a failure michael is in the tradition if your idea of the tradition doesn t include him change your idea of the tradition the irony here is that there is nothing in christianity per se that michael can use to support the cause of lesbians and gays how can one answer this while staying on the more general issue i m on the other side of the interpretive fence from michael on this issue yet nothing is a hideous overstatement one verse is enough to refute it i ll offer two from paul of all people in jesus christ there is neither male nor female galatians i don t quote single verses as a rule and i don t carry them in my head and nothing shall separate us from the glory of god roughly from romans if russell would promise to convert based on these or any other verses i d promise to get the full context for any that he requires in short it is the extra christian principles that make michael s christianity beneficial and i suspect they would be as beneficial perhaps moreso without being filtered by christian interpretation this conclusion does not follow even in short from the argument that goes before a surprising logical ellipsis dave davis ddavis ma bull com these are my opinions activities alone qotd wild beasts trapped in their cages are not so fierce as are the christians to each other julian the apostate c
talk.religion.misc	re koresh doctrine of in article watson mariner sce carleton ca watson sce carleton ca stephen watson writes question for those of you who seem to be fundamentalists stephen tice the cotera joe gaut et al apologies if i ve mislabelled any of you i ve only started reading t r m since the bd disaster but i know the cotera is a fundy and are defending koresh and his beliefs as an example of true christianity under persecution from the the big bad secular state what is your opinion of his reported sexual habits if the reports are accurate what iyo does this say about the quality of his christianity or are the allegations just part of the big cover up thank you steve it is refreshing to have someone accuse me of being a christian i only hope enough evidence can be garnered to get a conviction i am not certain what you mean by the fundy part as the term fundamentalist has a wide variety of uses if you refer to those who actually believe jesus is the messiah and son of god and wish to follow in his way then i plead guilty but what does it matter what i think the roman circus is over the lions have been satisfied for now the emperor after the long and gruelling struggle sensed the crowd was tiring and gave thumbs down with respect to my previous comments about david koresh i urge you to re examine my previous posts i believe you mistakenly assume that defense of koresh right to his own personal beliefs and his right to express them to others implies agreement with koresh theology actually i understand little about the details of branch davidian teachings and regret so many are hung up on that aspect of the tragic events of the past few days nor do i think koresh sex life should be of any interest to the federal government of course hillary says he had been molesting infants so it must be true even though such allegations do not fall under the jurisdiction of the federal government they are state and local matters and have been thoroughly reviewed at the local level by proper authorities with no successful charge having ever been levied against him under american law he was innocent as americans are presumed innocent until proven guilty at least that s how it is suppposed to be but he was demonized and propa gandized against by a powerful machine to have him appear as a lustful beast and therefore deserving of every ill the fates might bring upon him but evidence trickles in that the twenty one children who left the building in the early days of the siege were carefully examined by qualified authorities for evidence of physical or sexual abuse and none was found deguerin one of the attorneys who met with davidians several times before the conflagration reported that the children seemed well adjusted and showed no sign of abuse ultimately steve what i think about the heart of david koresh is quite unimportant today he is in the benevolent hands of a most wise and merciful judge who will one day surely judge us all so i withhold any judgment of david koresh and defer to the one who has all knowledge meanwhile let s clean up the mess left on earth and keep this from happening again by sending a strong message to the government to respect the inalienable rights of the people it serves joe gaut i remain deliberately neutral on the cause of the fire i wouldn t put it past koresh to have torched the place himself on the other hand if the propane tank accident story is correct i wouldn t put it past the fbi to try to cover its ass by claiming koresh did it i hope your government does a very thorough investigation of the whole debacle and i ll be disappointed if a few heads don t roll the authorities seem to have botched the original raid and in the matter of the fire are guilty of either serious misjudgement or reckless endangerment steve watson a k a watson sce carleton ca carleton university ontario this opinion my opinion assert this opinion carletonu opinion somebody touched me making everything new burned through my life like a bolt from the blue somebody touched me i know it was you bruce cockburn
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes specifically i d like to know what relativism concludes when two people grotesquely disagree is it a both are right b one of them is wrong and sometimes though perhaps rarely we have a pretty good idea who it is c one of them is wrong but we never have any information as to who so we make our best guess if we really must make a decision d the idea of a right moral judgement is meaningless implying that whether peace is better than war e g is a meaningless question and need not be discussed for it has no correct answer e something else a short positive assertion would be nice from whose point of view would you like to know what relativism concludes one of the people involved in the argument or some third person observing the arguers mathew
talk.religion.misc	re the universe and black holes was re years in article r cvpinnkv ctron news ctron com king ctron com john e king writes kv iastate edu warren vonroeschlaub writes let s say that we drop a marble into the black hole it races ever faster towards the even horizon but thanks to the curving of space caused by the excessive gravity as the object approaches the event horizon it has further to travel integrating the curve gives a time to reach the event horizon of infinity so the math says that nothing can enter a black hole isn t that just a variation of the achilles the turtle paradox which states that achilles could never possibly overtake a turtle how should one deal with a man who is convinced that he is acting according to god s will and who there jokke fore believes that he is doing you a favour by stabbing you in the back voltaire
talk.religion.misc	re after posts can we say that this thread is dead unfortunately not legalize freedom
talk.religion.misc	re that kill by sword must be killed by sword in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes in article c uvvd gdd murdoch acc virginia edu rwd f poe acc virginia edu rob dobson wrote i am also unhappy or actually very suspicious that the fbi was dismissing out of hand any chances that they might have accidentally set the blaze themselves i mean i guess we are just supposed to believe that ramming modified tanks into the walls of a building and injecting toxic gases into the building are just routine procedures no way anything could go wrong my core point was and still is that children died and mr koresh could just have opened the door and asked the children to go out before all this happened you might blaim fbi atf president clinton satan pepsi coke or anything else but you can t avoid the fact that one single action would have saved small children from a dreadful and painful death well mr koresh allowed other children and adults to leave the compound during the course of the siege why didnt these children leave then i dont know myself and certainly havent heard any answers on this here yes one simple non action ie not attacking the compound with modified tanks would have prevented this tragedy i bet you blamed the move people for the deaths that occurred in adjacent row houses in philadelphia not the government which dropped the firebomb right legalize freedom
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes frank unless you didn t realize it you are just now involved in a debate where we have various opinions and each entity has its own frame where the opinion is expressed i think i don t need to state the dreadful r word so it s sometimes correct to say that morality is objective or what after all i could hardly be wrong without dragging in the o word for your part when you say that relativism is true that s just your opinion why do folk get so heated then if a belief in relativism is merely a matter of taste to be fair you have been very calm i get the impression that s because you don t care about notions of objectivity in any flavour right frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
talk.religion.misc	what was koresh s messsage dear netters i am wondering about the accident of koresh i have heard different explanations without any explanation about your opinions and believes please kindly tell me what was koresh talking about or what was his message what was the main reason that government went in war with koresh some say that due to tax payment thanks in advance for your historical explanation kaamran
talk.religion.misc	what right recently i ve asked myself a rather interesting question what right does god have on our lives always assuming there is a god of course in his infinite wisdom he made it perfectly clear that if we don t live according to his rules we will burn in hell well with what right can god make that desicion let s say for the sake of argument that god creates every one of us directly or indirectly it doesn t matter what then happens is that he first creates us and then turns us lose well i didn t ask to be created let s make an analogue if a scientist creates a unique living creature which has happened it was even patented does he then have the right to expect it to behave in a certain matter or die who is god to impose its rules on us who can tell if god is really so righteous as god likes us to believe are all christians a flock of sheep unable to do otherwise that follow the rest hmmmmmmmmmmmm i just want to point out that this is not sarcasm i mean it how should one deal with a man who is convinced that he is acting according to god s will and who there jokke fore believes that he is doing you a favour by stabbing you in the back voltaire
talk.religion.misc	re ceci s rosicrucian adventure tony alicia writes let s start with the name rosicrucian i took me a long time to come to the conclusion that there is a difference between a member of a rosicrucian body and being a rosicrucian so when you say that you met some rosicrucians you mean members of a group that calls themselves rosicrucian at least that is what your observation suggests response this makes much sense to me this is also true of most religions there is a difference between being a member of a group of people who call themselves hindus or christians or pagans and actually being any of these the social groups tend to make very important requirements about not belonging to other religions i find that the ideal described by the holy texts of most religions can be interpreted in very similar ways so that one could presume that mysticism is the core of every religion and huxley s perennial philosophy is the great secret core of all mystical trads tony i d prefer if you would have stated up front that it was the lectorium rosicrucianum only because they may be confused by some readers of this newsgroup with the rosicrucian order amorc based the usa jurisdiction in san jose ca this being the rc org with the most members last time i looked of course most members does not necessarily mean best response certainly true i didn t know there were any groups which called themselves rosicrucians that didn t associate with amorc sure i ve heard all the hubbub about the golden dawn and rosae crucis in relation to all these western esoteric groups but hadn t heard about other rosicrucians i ll admit my bias i live in san jose tony you ll have to trust me when i tell you that if that lecture class whatever had been presented by amorc it is unlikely that you would have had the same impression i e you d probably have had a positive impression more likely than a negative one imho response this may be slightly off i ve met some of these rosicrucians and have a couple friends in amorc the stories i ve heard and the slight contact i ve had with them does not give me the hope that i d be received with any kind of warm welcome i still like to think that most people who are involved with stratified relationships monogamy religion etc are in deep pain and hope to heal it within such a cast tony it is curious to know that other rc orders in the usa claim to be non sectarian response i d like to know at least the addresses of the other orders which call themselves rosicrucians and especially those which are nonsectarian is this nonsectarian like the masons who require that a member believe in god by his her definition tony i don t see nothing fundamentally wrong with us containing something divine and yes i don t like phrases like eternal bliss either response let alone us being something divine tony btw i have read the intro letters of the lrc which they will mail you free of charge response addresses phone numbers of groups i m into networking thanks will love imagination is more important than knowledge albert einstein thyagi nagasiva thyagi houseofkaos abyss com house of kaos ironwood dr san jose ca fr nigris on divination web telnet seismo soar cs cmu edu
talk.religion.misc	re rw is robert weiss the only orthodox christian in article c vgyd h s acsu buffalo edu psyrobtw ubvmsd cc buffalo edu robert weiss says orthodox is a compound word it comes from orthos straight true right and from doxa opinion doctrine teaching i use orthodox to refer to right teaching right teaching is derived from letting god speak to us through the bible this can be from reading simple truths in the scriptures and by using the bible to interpret the bible thanks for the etymology lesson but i actually know what orthodox means you re avoiding my question however which was from what body of theology does your version of orthodoxy come you seem to simply be saying that whatever you understand the bible to say is orthodox ra who is that holds that luke meant what you said he meant i think that it is apparent from reading the scriptures that are pertinent you are obviously mistaken since many many people have read the bible and many do not agree with you on this point once again robert is your interpretation the only correct or orthodox one ra whenever your personal interpretation of biblical passages is ra challenged your only response seems to be that one needs merely to ra look at the bible in order to see the truth but what of those who ra see biblical things differently from you i seem to be seeing from you the notion that any difference in how one views the bible is somehow legitimate except or course for the stuff that i glean from it put forward a contrary view and perhaps we can have a discussion on that topic but to decry something that i put forward without putting forward something else to discuss and to dismiss what i put forward while giving credence to other alleged views that have yet to be put forward is simply being contentious this whole string began as a response to your attacks on mormonism no one is attacking your personal beliefs only your tendency to present them as orthodoxy i don t much care what you believe about the bible just don t present you personal understanding as the only orthodox one ra are we to simply assume that you are the only one who really ra understands it if you believe that something that i have drawn from scripture is wrong then please show me from scripture where it is wrong simply stating that there are other views is not a proof show it to me from scripture and then we can go on i have never attacked your specific beliefs that s your approach remember stating that other people who depend solely on the bible have other views is indeed proof that the bible can be interpreted many ways which has been my whole point all along the specifics of your belief are your business just don t pretend that they are anything more than your personal intepretation and be careful about crying heresy based on your private belief system robert weiss psyrobtw ubvms cc buffalo edu rick anderson librba byuvm bitnet
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article y rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes presumably this means that some moral systems are better than others how so how do you manage this without an objective frame of reference which goes faster a bullet or a snail how come you can answer that when einstein proved that there isn t an objective frame of reference not that einstein proved anything oh yes he did you may not agree with his premises and what he proved may not apply to reality if such a thing exists but he certainly proved something but you can t answer it and your answer be in general true got it in one similarly a moral relativist will not judge one moral system to be better than another in every possible circumstance this does not however preclude him from judging one moral system to be better than another in a specific set of circumstances nor does it preclude a set of moral relativists from collectively judging a moral system from some set of circumstances which they all agree they are in and even that statement assumes an objective reality independent of our beliefs about it eh could you explain this which that statement are you talking about and what weasel word do you use to describe that frame of reference if it isn t an objective reality for values i m sorry i can t parse an objective reality for values could you try again s an objective reality for values some values are real even in the face of disagreement i still don t quite see what you re trying to say i assume by values you mean moral values yes in which case what do you mean by real what is a real moral value as opposed to an unreal one if you are saying that some moral systems are better than others in your opinion then all you get is infinite regress sorry but in what way is it an infinite regress it looks extremely finite to me what you do not get is any justification for saying that the moral system of the terrorist is inferior to that of the man of peace sorry but that s not so i can provide a justification for asserting that the moral system of the terrorist is inferior to that of the man of peace i just can t provide a justification which works in all possible circumstances similarly i can provide a justification for asserting that bullets move faster than snails that justification won t hold in all possible frames of reference but it will hold in almost all the frames of reference i am ever likely to be in your saying it does not make it so and that s according to your premise not mine i don t think i agree with this my saying it does make it so from my point of view and according to my premises unless the argument is invalid it may indeed not make it so from your point of view but i never claimed that it did in fact i don t even claim that you exist enough to have a point of view mathew
talk.religion.misc	re rw is robert weiss the only orthodox christian in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli wrote no i also understand it i have read the bible from cover to cover examining each book within cross comparing them etc and i have come to same conclusions as robert weiss so rick why not read the bible for yourself it is written in plain english decide for yourself i m curious to know if christians ever read books based on critique on the religion classical text such as age of reason by paine or the myth maker by jacobi sometimes it is good to know your enemy and if you want to do serious research you have to understand both sides and not solely the one and only right one cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re to rob lanphier in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli wrote kent with regards to the information contained in the bible which is the original context of this thread brian kendig is inside a huge wall brian is inside the bible and the information contained therein are outside the wall brian kendig proves this very sad fact by the absurd things he says for example if i get through into the firey pit i will cease to exist the bible doesn t say that he hasn t a clue even to what jesus said about hell that is but one example looking at your discussion i would say that you both operate from your own reference frame there s no inside and no outside there are just two polarized views as for statements inside the bible things are still not that clear we don t have any indications for instance why jobs was placed in the old testament one of the few books that actually talks about satan jobs is very much out of line with the rest of the ot books and there s a chance that someone added this book later into the group of ot scriptures now in your sense kent of sensing reality that is a different matter and to you and to brian relativity does play a big role what we perceive to be true depends on our vantage point since i have read the bible and brian kendig shows that he hasn t he has a narrower perspective than mine at least in the respect of knowledge of the bible i am proposing to brian brian come up here and take a look from this vantage point but brian replies i rather not thank you i am content where i am besides the vista from up there stinks and in the meanwhile brian ignores the facts that he has never up there nor does he realize i had shared the same plateau where brian now stands this operates the other way around as well you have to understand the mind of an atheist agnostic or as in my case a radical relativist if you don t understand the underlying concepts it is pretty hard to continue with a dialogue i m not a perfect christian however about years of christian teaching should have provided me with a pretty good picture of the christian mind frame cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re davidians and compassion in article e e bm fm juts ccc amdahl com agr ccc amdahl com anthony g rose wrote i have a hard time just now understanding that christianity knows about the word compassion christians do you think the actions today would produce a good picture of your religion surely you are not equating david koresh with christianity the two are not comparable this is always an option when the sect is causing harm re label the cult to something else cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re a kind and loving god in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee wrote in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes it seems faith is the only tool available for emotional purposes due to the tragedy as such it maybe fills a need however i m getting tired to see children dying in pain in sudan due to lack of food and assuming that god takes these sufferers to heaven after a painful death if the children are not being fed whose fault is that you and i have plenty of food on our tables while others starve why is that god gave us this earth to manage i don t think we re doing a very good job of it the only consolation i have for those suffering children is that they will be received into the kingdom of heaven where they will never thirst and never hunger again i agree with your points and i m glad to hear that you subscribe to the notion of secular humanism humans helping humans instead of hoping for a possible deux ex machina solution as for faith you could always use such constructs to dampen your anger or sorrow cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews in article tredysvr tredydev unisys com tom tredysvr tredydev unisys com tom albrecht wrote in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee writes armed to the teeth a christian should not have to rely on physical weapons to defend himself a christian should rely on his faith and intelligence faith and intelligence tell me that when a druggie breaks into my house at night with a knife to kill me for the in my wallet a is considerably more persuasive than having devotions with him in other words faith in a is far stronger than faith in a god providing a miracle for his followers interesting now if david korresh was god why couldn t he use lightning instead of semi automatic rifles it seems even he didn t trust in himself cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re christians above the law was clarification of pe in article c aig l blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee wrote in article c kow e z mailer cc fsu edu dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu darius lecointe writes jesus was a jew not a christian if a christian means someone who believes in the divinity of jesus it is safe to say that jesus was a christian i would label him rather an original christian not a pauline christian though sad that the original church lost the game cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re burden of proof in article r b hg aurora engr latech edu ray engr latech edu bill ray writes note followups go to alt atheism talk religion misc talk origins deleted if i make a statement that god exists loves me etc but in no way insist that you believe it does that place a burden of proof upon me if you insist that god doesn t exist does that place a burden of proof upon you i give no proofs i only give testimony to my beliefs i will respond to proofs that you attempt to disprove my beliefs if you say x statement and give it the authority of fact i will respond by asking you why you aren t obligated to say anything but if your intent is to convince me that x statement is true then yes the burden of proof is upon you if you are merely giving testimony to your beliefs then you are an egotist why would i care to surmise the burden of proof is upon you if you wish us to believe that what you say is true chris faehl cfaehl vesta unm edu
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews capser before you deceive everone into thinking that the latter day saints have undergone undue persecution through the years for just believing in their religion perhaps you would like to tell us all what happened in the mountain meadow massacres and all the killings that were done under the blood atonement doctrine at the command of brigham young why don t you tell us tony i m sure what you think you know adds up to a lot more than what casper has doesn t it frustrate you to consider how many intelligent thoughtful people you have prepared for the mormon missionaries with your rant the more you talk the better we look nothing makes the truth look better than a background of falsehood sic em tony john w redelfs cj cleveland freenet edu all my opinions are tentative pending further data
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews dic hertz njit edu david charlap writes someone in the government actually believed koresh knew the seven seals of the apocalypse and ordered the invasion so that they d all be dead and unable to talk about them in public everything we need to know about the seven seals is already in the bible there is no knowledge of the seals that koresh could have unless the fbi were to kill all publishers of the bible it would seem the story of the seven seals would be bound to leak out assuming for the moment that the fbi believed in the bible and were afraid of the seven seals then they would also know that god is the one who has to open the seals not some little prophet like koresh
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews in other words faith in a is far stronger than faith in a god providing a miracle for his followers interesting now if david korresh was god why couldn t he use lightning instead of semi automatic rifles it seems even he didn t trust in himself cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net in the hands of a defender a is a miracle from god he helps those who help themselves or haven t you ever heard that one before john w redelfs cj cleveland freenet edu all my opinions are tentative pending further data
talk.religion.misc	re new religion forming sign up i give up what s new about yet another interpretation of the odl adam and eve story michael
talk.religion.misc	re new religion forming sign up jim kasprzak kasprj isaac its rpi edu wrote in article z wqc rpi edu weinss rs ecs rpi edu stephen andrew weinstein writes let me begin by saying i think this is the world s first religion to use the net as its major recruitment medium therefore even if this religion does not take off its founding members will be very important historically as this method of soliciting membership will eventually become common so what is kibology chopped liver kibo himself summed it up by saying kibology is not just a religion it is also a candy mint and a floor wax i personally think that it is more like spam clear you really should check out alt religion kibology as kibo s religion is slightly older than yours makes more sense and has more slack yes why send money to b b when kibo will pay you to worship him funny he doesn t seem to have paid me live from capitaland heart of the empire state jim kasprzak computer operator rpi troy ny usa i understand the causes and sympathize your motivations but all the details of this war are just your self infatuation e mail kasprj rpi edu or kasprzak mts rpi edu andrew bulhak acb yoyo cc monash edu au david koresh fried for your sins monash uni clayton victoria australia
talk.religion.misc	re ancient references to christianity was albert sabin in article c ztju fkx news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes why is the nt tossed out as info on jesus it isn t it s usually treated as being about as reliable as any other single uncorroborated source of information about a person for whom there is no other evidence i realize it is normally tossed out because it contains miracles but what are the other reasons what do you mean when you say it contains mirables i just opened mine and not a damned thing happened is there some special way to do this jon
talk.religion.misc	re ancient references to christianity was albert sabin in article c b n b news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes in ren a q morrow stanford edu salem pangea stanford edu bruce salem writes in article c ztju fkx news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes why is the nt tossed out as info on jesus i realize it is normally tossed out because it contains miracles but what are the other reasons it is not tossed out as a source but would it be regarded as unbiased and independant this brings up another something i have never understood i asked this once before and got a few interesting responses but somehow didn t seem satisfied why would the nt not be considered a good source contradicting itself on facts for example jon
talk.religion.misc	no knock was re who s next mormons and jews isaackuo skippy berkeley edu isaac kuo states in reply to deleted article about no knock searches arrests hmm the police strategy of bursting in with weapons drawn clearly marked as officers and yelling police repeatedly this is used every day to bust drug houses the idea is to awe the suspects into submission with surprise and display of firepowere in order to avoid a gun fight as for not knocking it s a sad necessity in many cases since the suspects will attempt to escape or even fight usually this strategy works if it didn t then it wouldn t be used so commonly now would it in general no knock raids are to preserve evidence like drugs which can be flushed down the toilet they are not the standard way to arrest a violent felon like a bank robber if there is no need to search or preserve evidence they will just surround the dwelling and order the suspect to come out with her hands up if the suspect does not come out tear gas will be used comment on the bd omitted i merely point out that it is a valid strategy which is used every day furthermore we don t know of any substitute strategy capable of apprehending potentially dangerous and armed suspects do you suggest it is not a method to apprehend criminals that the police always knock with guns holstered and never arrest any suspects until they have been allowed to inspect the officers s badges just what should the police do when apprehending potentially dangerous and armed suspects how far can they reasonably go to identity themselves what do you suggest they can do which can t be faked by the competition it is a very dangerous method to obtain evidence that might be destroyed if a warrant is served in the normal way it is the most dangerous way to arrest anyone the cops are charging into a room and they don t know what is in it it is much safer to surround the place and announce yourself even if you ve got deadly enemies who may pretend to be cops that s not an excuse to murder police in the case of the bd s there was almost definitely at most the paranoid delusion of deadly enimies who would pretend to be cops cops are not cops until they identify themselves as police officers most drug dealers and professional criminals are aware of the likelihood of arrest but they also know how the system works if they are arrested they call their lawyer post bail and hope for a plea bargain if they pull a gun and shoot a cop during a raid they will be charged with first degree murder if they survive the raid drug dealers have guns for protection from their customers and other criminals not to shoot cops cops are shot on no knock drug raids because the criminals aren t aware that they are cops no knock raids on homes occupied by non criminals are more likely to end in disaster mom and pop citizen know that they have not committed any crime they know that anyone breaking into their house cannot be a cop because they have done nothing wrong if they have the means to defend themselves they may because they know that the housebreakers are criminals not cops cops and homeowners may die the first reports from waco stated that the atf had a warrant to search for illegal weapons and also an arrest warrant if the illegal weapons were found in this case the no knock warrant was not called for it is difficult to flush a gun down the toilet the atf could have surrounded the compound a marked police car could have driven up to the entrance and uniformed officers could have knocked and served the warrant usual way it this had happened and and koresh refused the warrant or drove the cops off at gun point then most of the t p g folks would have kept quiet rod anderson n nzo i do not think the united states government boulder co is responsible for the fact that a bunch of rcanders nyx cs du edu fanatics decided to kill themselves satellite n nzo on ao slick willie the compassionate
talk.religion.misc	re history texts was ancient references to christianity in article p psilink com robert knowles p psilink com writes date apr from russell turpin turpin cs utexas edu the diaries of the followers of the maharishi formerly of oregon are historical evidence are you confusing bhagwan rajneesh sp with the maharishi mahesh yogi here by any chance i think bhagwan was in oregon with all the rolls royces maharishi mahesh yogi founded transcendental meditation and does the yogic flying stuff bhagwan s group was a communal free sex kind of thing i think they both had beards though i think we should just let bhagwans be bhagwans jon
talk.religion.misc	re koresh doctrine of in article apr ccsvax sfasu edu f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu wrote well stephen s annotated study of david koresh s sermon doesn t bother me it s probable that a careful review of what stephen has done with obvious expenditure of thoughtful effort would provide additional insight into david and his love for god may his soul rest in peace and whether or not we agree with various points of theology therein a review would likely provide significant insight into our own love for god one thing that seems apparent from even a cursory reading of koresh s message is that he was not the looney tunes portrayed in the fbi filtered press reports on him but was quite possibly the friendly likeable person his attorney reported him to be someone stated that the davidian cult should not be associated with christianity well i read all those four postings and i m now even more convinced that davididians are truly christian in nature but sometimes it makes sense to re label the cult especially if the ugliness is too much to handle cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re rw is robert weiss the only orthodox christian in article librba byuvm bitnet librba byuvm bitnet writes robert you keep making references to orthodox belief and saying things like it is held that cf kermit thread on what exact body of theology are you drawing for what you call orthodox who is that holds that luke meant what you said he meant whenever your personal interpretation of biblical passages is challenged your only response seems to be that one needs merely to look at the bible in order to see the truth but what of those who see biblical things differently from you are we to simply assume that you are the only one who really understands it rick i think we can safely say robert is not the only person who understands the bible and the leadership of the lds church historicly never has let s consider some personal interpretations and see how much trust we should put in orthodox mormonism which could never be confused with orthodox christianity in one of his attacks on christians the mormon apostle bruce r mcconkie said they thrash around in darkness in trying to identify elohim and jehovah and to show their relationship to the promised messiah he also said christians are wrong to believe that jehovah is the supreme deity god the father and that christ came into mortality as his only begotten son mcconkie then stated what mormons believe today to be the truth about the matter he said that elohim is the father and jehovah is the son being thus aware of how far astray the religious intellectualists have gone in defining their three in one god it comes as no surprise to learn that they thrash around in the same darkness in trying to identify elohim and jehovah and to show their relationship to the promised messiah some sectarians even believe that jehovah is the supreme deity whose son came into mortality as the only begotten as with their concept that god is a spirit this misinformation about the gods of heaven is untrue the fact is and it too is attested by holy writ that elohim is the father and that jehovah is the son who was born into mortality as the lord jesus christ the promised messiah promised messiah p notice that mcconkie said the christians are as wrong about their three in one god and their belief that god is a spirit as they are in their understanding of who elohim and jehovah are before examining mcconkie s attack and its validity we shall read a few more statements by mcconkie and other mormon sources concerning the words elohim and jehovah mcconkie stated the chief designation of christ that has been preserved for us in the old testament as that ancient work is now published is the exalted name title jehovah promised messiah p elohim plural word though it is is also used as the exalted name title of god the eternal father a usage that connotes his supremacy and omnipotence he being god above all gods mormon doctrine p agreeing with mcconkie on the question of who elohim and jehovah are the apostle james e talmage stated elohim as understood and used in the restored church of jesus christ is the name title of god the eternal father whose firstborn son in the spirit is jehovah the only begotten in the flesh jesus christ jesus the christ p a doctrinal exposition by the first presidency and the twelve apostles of the mormon church states that god the eternal father is designate d by the exalted name title elohim articles of faith p christ in his preexistent antemortal or unembodied state was known as jehovah articles of faith p today mormon leaders teach that elohim in the ot refers to god the father and jehovah refers to christ mcconkie attacked christians for saying jehovah can refer to the father he stressed that these two name titles should not be changed around so that christ is called elohim and the father is called jehovah the father is elohim not jehovah jehovah is christ and christ is jehovah they are one and the same person promised messiah p in the ot of the kjv of the bible the hebrew word elohim is used to refer to the true god false gods and goddesses and the judges of israel when referring to the true god elohim is translated with a capital g when referring to false gods and goddesses and the judges of israel it is translated with a small g it is translated four times as judges exod once as judge sam twice as mighty gen exod once as angels ps once as godly mal once as great gen and once as very great sam the word jehovah is the traditional pronunciation of the tetragrammation yhwh or yhvh with the vowel points taken from the word adonai many people believe the true pronunciation of the tetragrammation was yahweh or yahveh however since jehovah rather than yahweh is the word used by mormonism this section will also use jehovah instead of yahweh to examine the validity of the claims of mormon leaders regarding that name jehovah unlike elohim is never used of false gods it is the personal name of the triune god of the bible in the kjv jehovah is rendered primarily lord sometimes god and rarely lord now that we understand something about the words elohim and jehovah and their use by mormon leaders we shall consider the apostle mcconkie s attack on christians for believing the father is jehovah in trying to prove that jehovah refers exclusively to christ mcconkie cited several verses from the bible some of these verses and mcconkie s interpretation of them will be examined to see whether he was right remember mcconkie said the father is not jehovah he is only elohim the first example we shall consider involves mcconkie s interpretation of ps of this verse he stated of whom spake david when his tongue was touched by the holy spirit and he testified the lord said unto my lord sit thou at my right hand until i make thine enemies thy footstool ps two lords are here involved one is speaking to the other one is greater than the other one is making provision for the triumph and glory of the other who are they and what message is contained in this messianic prophecy what think ye of christ our lord asked certain of his detractors toward the end of his mortal ministry whose son is he is christ the son of god or of someone else is he to be born of a divine parent or will he be as other men a mortal son of a mortal father that he was to be a descendant of david was a matter of great pride to all the jews and so they answered the son of david david s son truly he was but he was more much more and so our lord with irrefutable logic and to their complete discomfiture asked how then doth david in spirit call him lord saying the lord said unto my lord sit thou on my right hand till i make thine enemies thy footstool if david then call him lord how is he his son that is if he is only the son of david how is it that the great king acting under inspiration calls him lord and worships him as such and we might add who is the other lord the one who spake unto david s lord can there be any question as to how jesus is interpreting the words of the psalm he is saying that it means the father said unto the son elohim said unto jehovah sit thou on my right hand until after your mortal ministry then i will raise you up to eternal glory and exaltation with me where you will continue to sit on my right hand forever promised messiah pp emphasis added agreeing with the above statement by mcconkie the following remark in the mormon pamphlet what the mormons think of christ p reads the lord elohim the father said unto my lord jehovah the son brackets in original mcconkie clearly stated that it is elohim the father who is speaking to jehovah the son in this psalm however when one looks at the hebrew word translated lord it becomes apparent that either the first lord is not the father or else the father is jehovah either way mcconkie is wrong the psalm reads the lord jehovah said unto my lord adon sit thou at my right hand until i make thine enemies thy footstool ps the first lord in this verse is jehovah who mormonism says is christ not the father the second lord is the hebrew word adon singular for adonai meaning master or lord if the first lord is the father and the second lord is the son then the father is jehovah and the son is adon however if the father is not jehovah as mcconkie claimed then the first lord is jehovah the son but who then is adon obviously the father is jehovah in this psalm and his son is adon another example involves isa about which mcconkie stated the following i the lord have called thee in righteousness isaiah quoted the father as saying of christ and will hold thine hand and will keep thee and give thee for a covenant of the people for a light of the gentiles isa promised messiah p emphasis added mcconkie said the father was speaking of christ in this passage which reads i the lord jehovah have called thee in righteousness and will hold thine hand and will keep thee and give thee for a covenant of the people for a light of the gentiles isa according to mcconkie i the lord refers to the father and thine and thee refer to christ however the lord who is speaking is jehovah which means either mcconkie was wrong about who is speaking or else the father is jehovah another example involves ps of these verses mcconkie stated the same psalm says all they that see me laugh me to scorn they shoot out the lip they shake the head saying he trusted on the lord that he would deliver him let him deliver him seeing he delighted in him ps the fulfillment as jesus hung on the cross is found in these words the chief priests mocking him with the scribes and elders said he saved others himself he cannot save if he be the king of israel let him now come down from the cross and we will believe him he trusted in god let him deliver him now if he will have him for he said i am the son of god the thieves also which were crucified with him cast the same in his teeth matt promised messiah pp emphasis added ps reads as follows all they that see me laugh me to scorn they shoot out the lip they shake the head saying he trusted on the lord jehovah that he would deliver him let him deliver him seeing he delighted in him mcconkie said these verses had their fulfillment as jesus hung on the cross that means the person who was scorned in these verses was christ who then was the lord in whom he trusted it was jehovah the father another example involves ps and ps regarding them mcconkie stated the following with reference to the conniving and conspiring plots incident to our lord s arrest and judicial trials the prophecy was they took counsel together against me they devised to take away my life ps as to the role of judas in those conspiracies the psalmist says mine own familiar friend in whom i trusted which did eat of my bread hath lifted up his heel against me ps promised messiah p apostle mcconkie said these psalms refer to christ s arrest and judicial trials we shall first consider ps and then ps while mcconkie only quoted verse of ps verse will also be included to give a complete understanding of the matter for i have heard the slander of many fear was on every side while they took counsel together against me they devised to take away my life but i trusted in thee o lord jehovah i said thou art my god elohim ps mcconkie said verse referred to jesus christ verse goes on to tell that he christ trusted in the lord who is called his god or elohim mormonism teaches that the god above jesus is elohim the father verse however reveals that the elohim of the man jesus is jehovah the father in ps mcconkie only quoted one verse however two verses will be considered in this examination yea mine own familiar friend in whom i trusted which did eat of my bread hath lifted up his heel against me but thou o lord jehovah be merciful unto me and raise me up that i may requite them ps mcconkie stated above that verse referred to judas role in christ s death since it was judas who was the familiar friend who lifted up his heel the pronouns mine i my and me in verse must refer to christ notice that at the beginning of verse there is a change of pronoun to thou which refers to the lord jehovah then the pronouns me and i which refer to christ are used again that means christ was speaking to jehovah the father in these verses another example involves mcconkie s following remark about ps one of the great messianic prophecies spoken by the mouth of david says the lord hath sworn and will not repent thou art a priest for ever after the order of melchizedek ps promised messiah p mcconkie admitted this is a messianic prophecy involving christ the question is what in this verse refers to christ the lord jehovah hath sworn and will not repent thou art a priest for ever after the order of melchizedek ps does the lord which is jehovah refer to christ if mcconkie is right and jesus is jehovah but the father is not then the lord would have to refer to christ but who then is the one addressed as the priest forever after the order of melchizedek the bible reveals that the one referred to is jesus christ heb therefore the lord jehovah in ps is the father another example involves isa of these verses mcconkie stated of the atoning sacrifice of the future messiah isaiah said the lord has laid on him the iniquities of us all it pleased the lord to bruise him promised messiah p emphasis added mcconkie rightly said these verses refer to the atoning sacrifice of the future messiah however what he failed to mention is that they also prove that the father is jehovah verse reads all we like sheep have gone astray we have turned every one to his own way and the lord jehovah hath laid on him christ the iniquity of us all and verse reads yet it pleased the lord jehovah to bruise him christ obviously the lord who laid on christ the iniquity of us all and who bruised him is god the father who is called jehovah in these verses remember mcconkie stated that some sectarians even believe that jehovah is the supreme deity and that christ came into mortality as his only begotten son he called this concept misinformation that is untrue to prove that it is mcconkie who is misinformed and believing untruth two scriptural references sam ps will be examined mcconkie stated the following regarding these scriptures in the midst of a passage that is clearly messianic the lord says of the seed of david i will be his father and he shall be my son sam in the second psalm the whole of which is also clearly messianic occurs this statement thou art my son this day have i begotten thee ps paul quotes both of these statements in hebrews and says they are prophecies that christ would come as the son of god promised messiah p mcconkie cited heb to show that sam and ps refer to christ who would come as the son of god since mcconkie first referenced sam this examination will too however along with verse verses will also be included and as since the time that i commanded judges to be over my people israel and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies also the lord jehovah telleth thee that he will make thee an house and when thy days be fulfilled and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers i will set up thy seed after thee which shall proceed out of thy bowels and i will establish his kingdom he shall build an house for my name and i will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever i will be his father and he shall be my son sam these verses teach that the lord jehovah would have a son the messiah in the second example mcconkie cited ps this examination will include verse notice that it is the lord jehovah who says thou art my son this day have i begotten thee i will declare the decree the lord jehovah hath said unto me thou art my son this day have i begotten thee ask of me and i shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession mcconkie said these verses of scripture are clearly messianic and he acknowledged they teach that christ would come as the son of god what he is not willing to acknowledge however is that these scriptures also teach that the father is jehovah and that the sectarians who believe jehovah is the supreme deity whose son is jesus christ the only begotten are right in their belief another example involves mic of this verse mcconkie stated the following and so truly did our lord act during his mortal ministry truly this is he of whom it is written he shall stand and feed in the strength of the lord in the majesty of the name of the lord his god for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth mic promised messiah p emphasis added according to mcconkie the pronoun he at the beginning of mic refers to christ during his mortal ministry who then is the lord his god mic reads and he christ shall stand and feed in the strength of the lord jehovah in the majesty of the name of the lord jehovah his god elohim for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth obviously the lord of jesus christ is jehovah the father who is referred to as jehovah his elohim another example involves ps and isa of these verses mcconkie stated the following a number of messianic passages speak of the lord and his anointed ps signifying that the chosen one was consecrated and set apart for the ministry and mission that was his jesus applied these passages to himself by quoting isaiah s prophecy the lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek isa and then saying this day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears luke promised messiah pp emphasis added the first source mcconkie quoted ps reads as follows the kings of the earth set themselves and the rulers take counsel together against the lord jehovah and against his anointed mcconkie said the anointed one was christ if that is true who was jehovah if jehovah is always christ who was the anointed one obviously jehovah is referring to god the father and the anointed is indeed referring to christ the second source mcconkie cited is isa which states the spirit of the lord adonai god jehovah is upon me because the lord jehovah hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted to proclaim liberty to the captives and the opening of the prison to them that are bound the one who was anointed to preach bind up proclaim and open was jesus christ who then was the one who anointed him this verse says the lord jehovah did the anointing again we face the same problem if jehovah does not refer to the father but only to christ then jesus anointed someone but who as mcconkie pointed out jesus applied these passages to himself therefore the jehovah who anointed christ is god the father other examples could be cited to show that mcconkie and other mormon leaders are wrong when they say god the father is not jehovah however these should be enough to expose their error now what about mormonism s claim that jesus is jehovah but he is not elohim it is true that jesus is jehovah the following scriptures prove this fact thus saith the lord jehovah the king of israel and his redeemer the lord jehovah of hosts i am the first and i am the last and beside me there is no god isa jesus said i am the first and the last i am he that liveth and was dead rev saith the lord jehovah they shall look upon me whom they have pierced and they shall mourn for him as one mourneth for his only son zech behold he christ cometh with clouds and every eye shall see him and they also which pierced him rev i am the lord jehovah thy god the holy one of israel isa ye denied the holy one christ and the just acts and it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call on the name of the lord jehovah shall be delivered joel the name of jesus christ of nazareth there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved acts behold the lord god jehovah will come with strong hand his reward is with him isa behold i christ come quickly and my reward is with me rev the lord jehovah my god shall come and all the saints with thee zech at the coming of our lord jesus christ with all his saints thess the lord jehovah is my shepherd ps jesus said i am the good shepherd john saith the lord god jehovah i will seek that which was lost ezek the son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost luke for i am the lord jehovah thy god the holy one of israel thy saviour isa looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great god and our saviour jesus christ tit see also jer and rev mal and heb kin and john isa and tim ps and matt prov and rev while mormons are right when they say jesus is jehovah they are wrong when they say he is not elohim the bible reveals that jehovah is the only true elohim there is all others are false remember jehovah is the personal name of the triune god who has revealed himself in the bible before we consider biblical quotes which show that jehovah and elohim are not two separate gods as mormons claims let us first note that not only are both god the father and christ addressed as jehovah and elohim but so is the holy spirit whereof the holy ghost said this is the covenant that i will make with them after those days saith the lord i will put my laws into their hearts and in their minds will i write them and their sins and iniquities will i remember no more heb emphasis on holy ghost and said added behold the days come saith the lord jehovah that i will make a new covenant with the house of israel and with the house of judah i will put my law in their inward parts and write it in their hearts and will be their god elohim and they shall be my people i will forgive their iniquity and i will remember their sin no more jer emphasis added for the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man but holy men of god spake as they were moved by the holy ghost pet emphasis on holy ghost added the spirit of the lord jehovah spake by me and his word was in my tongue sam see also heb with ps let us now continue with the biblical quotes which show that jehovah and elohim are not two separate gods as mormons claim and when the lord jehovah saw that he moses turned aside to see god elohim called unto him out of the midst of the bush and said moses moses and he said here am i bruce r mcconkie acknowledged that it was christ s voice that spoke to moses in the burning bush promised messiah p and the lord jehovah said and moses said unto god elohim behold when i come unto the children of israel and shall say unto them the god elohim of your fathers hath sent me unto you and they shall say to me what is his name what shall i say unto them and god elohim said unto moses i am that i am and he said thus shalt thou say unto the children of israel i am hath sent me unto you and god elohim said moreover unto moses thus shalt thou say unto the children of israel the lord jehovah god elohim of your fathers the god elohim of abraham the god elohim of isaac and the god elohim of jacob hath sent me unto you this is my name for ever and this is my memorial unto all generations exod and god elohim spake unto moses and said unto him i am the lord jehovah exod i am the lord jehovah and there is none else there is no god elohim beside me i girded thee though thou hast not known me isa but the lord jehovah is the true god elohim he is the living god elohim and an everlasting king jer thus saith the lord jehovah the king of israel and his redeemer the lord jehovah of hosts i am the first and i am the last and beside me there is no god elohim isa therefore will i cause you to go into captivity beyond damascus saith the lord jehovah whose name is the god elohim of hosts amos behold the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the lord s jehovah s thy god elohim the earth also with all that therein is deut wherefore thou art great o lord jehovah god elohim for there is none like thee neither is there any god elohim beside thee according to all that we have heard with our ears sam and he said unto them i am an hebrew and i fear the lord jehovah the god elohim of heaven which hath made the sea and the dry land jon for who is god elohim save the lord jehovah or who is a rock save our god elohim ps blessed is the nation whose god elohim is the lord jehovah ps see also ps hast thou not known hast thou not heard that the everlasting god elohim the lord jehovah the creator of the ends of the earth fainteth not neither is weary there is no searching of his understanding isa the mighty god elohim even the lord jehovah hath spoken and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof ps sing unto god elohim sing praises to his name estol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name jah and rejoice before him ps regarding the word jah bruce r mcconkie stated jah hebrew yah is a contracted form of jehovah jahveh or yahweh all of which names have reference to christ the god of israel mormon doctrine p and david arose and went with all the people that were with him from baale of judah to bring up from thence the ark of god elohim whose name is called by the name of the lord jehovah of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims sam the great the mighty god elohim the lord jehovah of hosts is his name jer o my god elohim make them like a wheel as the stubble before the wind fill their faces with shame that they may seek thy name o lord jehovah that men may know that thou whose name alone is jehovah art the most high over all the earth ps the bible clearly teaches that jehovah is elohim in fact he is the only elohim there is he is the true the living the mighty the great and the everlasting elohim he is the elohim of israel of all the kingdoms of the earth and of the heavens he is the creator who made the heavens and all their host and the earth and all that dwell thereon jehovah s name is elohim of hosts amos not only is jehovah elohim but elohim is jehovah the bible reveals that elohim s name is jah ps jehovah ps and jehovah of hosts sam jer the nation whose elohim is jehovah is blessed ps clearly this is not the jehovah and elohim of the mormons another mormon error regarding elohim and jehovah is the belief that elohim not jehovah is the father of all the spirits including jesus in the articles of faith by apostle james e talmage a doctrinal exposition by the first presidency and the twelve apostles states that god the eternal father elohim is the literal parent of the spirits of the human race p this doctrinal exposition also states explicitly that jesus christ is not the father of the spirits who have taken or yet shall take bodies upon this earth for he is one of them he is the son as they are sons and daughters of elohim p the apostle talmage stated that elohim is the name title of god the eternal father whose firstborn son in the spirit is jehovah jesus the christ p the apostle bruce r mcconkie stated the following about this matter jehovah christ did in fact create the earth and all forms of plant and animal life on the face thereof but when it came to placing man on earth there was a change in creators that is the father himself became personally involved all things were created by the son using the power delegated by the father except man in the spirit and again in the flesh man was created by the father there was no delegation of authority where the crowning creature of creation was concerned promised messiah p emphasis added mormon leaders claim that jehovah christ did not create either man s spirit or his body they maintain that the mormon elohim who is the father created man both in spirit and body the bible reveals the truth about who created man and moses spake unto the lord jehovah saying let the lord jehovah the god elohim of the spirits of all flesh set a man over the congregation num see also emphasis added the lord jehovah which stretcheth forth the heavens and layeth the foundation of the earth and formeth the spirit of man within him zech emphasis added the lord jehovah made us this soul jer for i will not contend for ever neither will i be always wroth for the spirit should fail before me and the souls which i have made saith the lord jehovah isa emphasis on souls i have made added behold i am the lord jehovah the god elohim of all flesh jer emphasis added thus saith the lord jehovah thy redeemer and he that formed thee from the womb i am the lord jehovah that maketh all things isa emphasis added thus saith the lord jehovah i have made the earth and created man upon it isa emphasis added god elohim created man upon the earth unto thee it was shewed that thou mightest know that the lord jehovah he is god elohim there is none else beside him deut thus saith god el the lord jehovah he that spread forth the earth and that which cometh out of it he that giveth breath unto the people upon it and spirit to them that walk therein isa thus saith the lord jehovah of hosts the god elohim of israel i have made the earth the man and the beast that are upon the ground jer most emphasis added the bible reveals that it is jehovah who is the elohim of the spirits of all flesh and of all flesh itself that it was he who formed the spirit of man within him that he made us this soul and formed us from the womb he did indeed create man if mormon leaders are right when they say jesus is jehovah then they are wrong when they say he did not create man if they are right when they say the father is the one who created man then they are wrong when they say he is not jehovah although mormon leaders teach that jesus did not create man mormon scriptures teach that he did the bom states the following behold i am jesus christ i am the father and the son and never have i showed myself unto man whom i have created for never has man believed in me as thou hast behold this body which ye now behold is the body of my spirit and man have i created after the body of my spirit eth emphasis added for it is i that taketh upon me the sins of the world for it is i that hath created them mos emphasis added the god of abraham and the god of isaac and the god of jacob is that same god who created the heavens and the earth and all things that in them are behold he created adam mor emphasis added d c states that the worlds were made by him christ men were made by him all things were made by him and through him and of him emphasis added another error by bruce r mcconkie involving jehovah and his creation is the belief that jehovah had many pre mortal spirits helping him create included in this alleged group was joseph smith jr that he christ was aided in the creation of this earth by many of the noble and great spirit children of the father is evident from abraham s writings unto those superior spirits christ said we will go down for there is space there and we will take of these materials and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell abra michael or adam was one of these enoch noah abraham moses peter james and john joseph smith and many other noble and great ones played a part in the great creative enterprise doctrines of salvation vol pp mormon doctrine p the bible reveals the truth about this matter thus saith the lord jehovah thy redeemer and he that formed thee from the womb i am the lord jehovah that maketh all things that stretcheth forth the heavens alone that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself isa which alone spreadeth out the heavens and treadeth upon the waves of the sea job jehovah by himself created all things he had no alleged preexistent spirit helpers assisting him regarding the mormon elohim the apostle mcconkie stated elohim plural word though it is is also used as the exalted name title of god the eternal father a usage that connotes his supremacy and omnipotence he being god above all gods mormon doctrine p he also stated that jesus is above all save the father only promised messiah p the bible states that the one who is god above all so called gods is the triune god jehovah for the lord jehovah is a great god el and a great king above all gods elohim ps for thou lord jehovah art high above all the earth thou art exalted far above all gods elohim ps now i know that the lord jehovah is greater than all gods elohim exod see also ps deut if mormon leaders are right when they say jehovah is god the son and elohim is god the father these verses from the bible would be teaching that the mormon son is above his father however as mcconkie clearly stated mormons believe elohim the father not jehovah the son is the god above all gods that jesus is above all except the father yet the bible teaches that jehovah is above all elohim at a byu dev on march bruce r mcconkie made the following remark about praying to jesus another peril is that those so involved often begin to pray directly to christ because of some special friendship they feel has been developed this is plain sectarian nonsense our prayers are addressed to the father and to him only perfect prayer is addressed to the father in the name of the son it is uttered by the power of the holy ghost our relationship with the lord pp mcconkie states on p of his book promised messiah that the mormons pray to the father not the son on p of the same book mcconkie states that christ the son is jehovah this is important to remember because although mcconkie said prayer is not to be offered to the mormon christ who is jehovah the bible states repeatedly in the ot that people prayed to jehovah and he not only heard those prayers but he accepted them as valid requests the following is but a small sample of the vast number of times people prayed to jehovah in my distress i called upon the lord jehovah and cried unto my god elohim he heard my voice out of his temple and my cry came before him even into his ears ps and the lord jehovah said unto him i have heard thy prayer and thy supplication that thou hast made before me i have hallowed this house which thou hast built to put my name there for ever and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually kin and said unto jeremiah the prophet let we beseech thee our supplication be accepted before thee and pray for us unto the lord jehovah thy god elohim even for all this remnant jer o lord jehovah i beseech thee let now thine ear be attentive to the prayer of thy servant and to the prayer of thy servants who desire to fear thy name neh and it was so that when solomon had made an end of praying all this prayer and supplication unto the lord jehovah he arose from before the altar of the lord jehovah from kneeling on his knees with his hands spread up to heaven kin he went in therefore and shut the door upon them twain and prayed unto the lord jehovah kin go and say to hezekiah thus saith the lord jehovah the god elohim of david thy father i have heard thy prayer i have seen thy tears behold i will add unto thy days fifteen years isa i acknowledge my sin unto thee and mine iniquity have i not hid i said i will confess my transgressions unto the lord jehovah and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin for this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found ps notice above in ps that the godly pray to jehovah according to mcconkie and other mormon leaders that is christ the very one to whom mcconkie said people should not pray the bible reveals there is only one true elohim and his name is jehovah all other elohim are false they are idols that cause their followers to commit adultery against the true elohim and idolatry for the lord jehovah is great and greatly to be praised he is to be feared above all gods elohim for all the gods elohim of the nations are idols but the lord jehovah made the heavens ps thou shalt have no other gods elohim before me exod now i know that the lord jehovah is greater than all gods elohim exod and it shall be if thou do at all forget the lord jehovah thy god elohim and walk after other gods elohim and serve them and worship them i testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish deut thou shalt make no covenant with them nor with their gods elohim they shall not dwell in thy land lest they make thee sin against me for if thou serve their gods elohim it will surely be a snare unto thee exod take heed to yourselves that your heart be not deceived and ye turn aside and serve other gods elohim and worship them deut that ye come not among these nations these that remain among you neither make mention of the name of their gods elohim nor cause to swear by them neither serve them nor bow yourselves unto them josh neither walk after other gods elohim to your hurt jer but the lord jehovah is the true god elohim he is the living god elohim jer and they forsook the lord jehovah god elohim of their fathers which brought them out of the land of egypt and followed other gods elohim of the gods elohim of the people that were round about them and bowed themselves unto them and provoked the lord jehovah to anger jud shall a man make gods elohim unto himself and they are no gods elohim therefore behold i will this once cause them to know i will cause them to know mine hand and my might and they shall know that my name is the lord jehovah jer and if it seem evil unto you to serve the lord jehovah choose you this day whom ye will serve whether the gods elohim which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood or the gods elohim of the amorites in whose land ye dwell but as for me and my house we will serve the lord jehovah and the people answered and said god elohim forbid that we should forsake the lord jehovah to serve other gods elohim josh these verses teach that the only true living elohim in heaven and on earth is jehovah the triune god who made heaven and earth and all therein jehovah is greater than any elohim because all other elohim are idols the reality behind them is demonic deut jehovah elohim has given explicit warnings and guidelines regarding these false elohim he told his people not to have any elohim but him he told the people that if they left him for the false elohim those elohim would be a snare to them and they would be hurt and would perish he warned the people to take heed that their heart be not deceived into worshiping serving swearing by and making covenants with false elohim jehovah elohim told his people he would eventually judge all false elohim and their followers despite these warnings and guidelines elohim s covenant people forsook him and believed in and worshiped the false elohim s of the people they came in contact with ju states that the children of israel did evil again in the sight of the lord jehovah and served baalim and ashtaroth and the gods elohim of syria and the gods elohim of zidon and the gods elohim of moab and the gods elohim of the children of ammon and the gods elohim of the philistines and forsook the lord jehovah and served not him this examination has shown that the elohim of mormonism like the elohim in ju is not the true jehovah elohim therefore the people who leave the true elohim for the mormon elohim will do evil in the sight of the lord jehovah although mcconkie attacked christians for their belief in a triune god who is spirit and for their belief that god the father jehovah sent his son into the world these beliefs are true god is triune he is spirit he is jehovah and he did send his son into the world to redeem mankind it is obvious from this examination that it is not the christians who thrash around in darkness about who elohim and jehovah are one wonders what holy writ mcconkie had in mind when he stated that it attests to the fact that elohim is the father and that jehovah is the son he certainly did not mean the bible which teaches that the father son and holy spirit are all the one jehovah elohim he apparently did not mean the d c either because chapter verses refer to the father as jehovah summary obviously joseph fielding smith s statement that the mormons have a clear and perfect understanding of the nature of god doctrines of salvation is not accurate the mormon gods are not the true god as mormonism claims but are idols which cause their followers to commit adultery against god and idolatry in answer to jesus question but whom say ye that i am mormons say jesus is someone different from the jesus who is revealed in the bible and whom the apostles preached therefore anyone trusting in the mormon jesus is believing in another jesus whom paul warned about bernard p brockbank of the first quorum of the seventy admitted in the may issue of the ensign a mormon publication that the mormon jesus is different from the christian jesus he stated that it is true that many of the christian churches worship a different jesus christ than is worshipped by the mormons or the church of jesus christ of latter day saints p the people who believe in the mormon jesus are committing adultery against god and idolatry they do not have the son therefore they do not have the father and they do not have eternal life as the apostle bruce r mcconkie rightly stated salvation comes only by worshiping the true god promised messiah p mcconkie also rightly stated that the mere worship of a god who has the proper scriptural names does not assure one that he is worshiping the true and living god because the true names of deity can be applied to false concepts of god mormon doctrine p remember that the apostle stephen l richards admitted that joseph smith jr gave a new conception of god and the godhead contributions of joseph smith p it is important for the people who have left the true triune god revealed in the bible to repent and return to him they must forsake the sins of idolatry and adultery which they are committing in mormonism the bible says all that forsake thee shall be ashamed and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth because they have forsaken the lord jehovah the fountain of living waters jer and it shall be if thou do at all forget the lord jehovah thy god elohim and walk after other gods elohim and serve them and worship them i testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish deut thou shalt make no covenant with their gods elohim exod put away the strange gods elohim that are among you and be clean and change your garments gen flee from idolatry cor it is necessary that christians heed the warnings of the bible if they do they will not fall into the sins of adultery against god and idolatry remember to know the only true god is eternal life john their gods elohim shall be a snare unto you ju see also exod
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened royc rbdc wsnc org roy crabtree writes in article keng tunfaire keng den mmc com ken garrido writes lotsa stuff taken out bottom line due process was not served no peaceful attempt to serve a warrant occurred the peaceful attempt to serve the warrant was met with gunfire due process was not served because the branch davidians wanted it that way you think on that royc milk is for babies when you re a man you drink beer arnold ken garrido that s guh reed oh miserable asm and c hack email keng tunfaire den mmc com or kenneth garrido filebank com
talk.religion.misc	re new religion forming sign up alt religion spam
talk.religion.misc	re waco information accuracy in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes in article r mflinnak crcnis unl edu e p unl edu edgar pearlstein wrote an example is the fbi report that several of the bodies found in the rubble had bullet wounds the local coroner who is independent of the fbi has so far found no bullet wounds according to cnn last night saturday he has now found bullets in two of the corpses in the head that would indicate that the bullets were aimed at killing the humans this will not of course deter the several die hard koreshies on this net who will probably claim that the tarrant county medical examiner dr peerwani was coerced by the fbi into faking this evidence either that or they ll claim the fbi shot them the rest of us might contemplate the difficulty of determining the cause of death from a corpse that has been reduced to a krispy kritter the doge of south st louis dobbs approved media conspirator tm one step beyond sundays to pm fm st louis community radio you ll pay to know what you really think j r bob dobbs
talk.religion.misc	re new religion forming sign up andrew bulhak ins n aurora cc monash edu au wrote jim kasprzak kasprj isaac its rpi edu wrote in article z wqc rpi edu weinss rs ecs rpi edu stephen andrew weinstein writes so what is kibology chopped liver kibo himself summed it up by saying kibology is not just a religion it is also a candy mint and a floor wax i personally think that it is more like spam clear i m presently searching for enlightenment answers to the unanswerable a certain amount of direction without actually going anywhere could kibology be it i don t know enough about kibology and wish that someone can help me after i ve spread my ninth tube of anchovy paste on my living room wall to creat my own form of art i need some higher authority to turn towards to give my life some meaning maybe kibology is the answer it s either that or i go out to the store and buy up another case of anchovy paste
talk.religion.misc	re rfd misc taoism in article apr coe montana edu uphrrmk gemini oscs montana edu jack coyote writes sunlight shining off of the ocean the universe mirrored in a puddle aleph null bottles of beer on the wall aleph null bottles of beer take one down pass it around aleph null bottles of beer on the wall isn t it amazing how there always seems to be another bottle of bheer there aleph one bottles of beer on the wall aleph one null bottles of beer you too are a puddle as above so below mark
talk.religion.misc	re new religion forming sign up refrettably you are mistaken alt drugs was used to recruit people for the worldwide pot religion i however hve no problem being in both of them death to dupont free bobby fischer michele cayley is my mom sue me not her johan engevik drunken naked genius at large
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli writes even though a new born is innocent as can be his sinful nature will surely manifest itself more explicity as he gets older for as surely as he grows hair on his head and teeth within his mouth he will show the signs of his innate sin by rebelling against mommy and daddy with that loud proclamation no that s not showing the signs of his innate sin that s testing the limits of his newfound independence a two year old will continually test you to see just how much he can get away with just as a pet dog will if a child always submitted to your will in a docile fashion would you praise him and suspect that he s the second coming of christ or would you seek professional help about his emotional development brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j ai vus j ose croire n etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux au moins je suis autre is that it ends rousseau
talk.religion.misc	re burden of proof in article r b inn lynx unm edu cfaehl vesta unm edu chris faehl writes in article r b hg aurora engr latech edu ray engr latech edu bill ray writes note followups go to alt atheism talk religion misc talk origins deleted if i make a statement that god exists loves me etc but in no way insist that you believe it does that place a burden of proof upon me if you insist that god doesn t exist does that place a burden of proof upon you i give no proofs i only give testimony to my beliefs i will respond to proofs that you attempt to disprove my beliefs if you say x statement and give it the authority of fact i will respond by asking you why you aren t obligated to say anything but if your intent is to convince me that x statement is true then yes the burden of proof is upon you if what was being discussed could be established or disproven by experiment and observation then i would agree with you chris the burden of proof would belong to bill but the source document for christianity the bible simply assumes god exists and makes it clear to us calvinists anyway that when a person is in fellowship with god it is because god has taken the initiative in revealing himself to that person so from a christian point of view the burden of proof belongs to god bill is being consistent with what the bible teaches in relating his own experience with god but it would be an error on his part to assume that there is a direct causal relationship between his testimony and someone else becoming convinced that god exists and that he needs to be reconciled to god if you are merely giving testimony to your beliefs then you are an egotist please excuse me if i missed an earlier part of this thread in which bill came across like an egotist what i saw was simply obedience to the scriptural command to always be ready to give a reason for the joy that is in you bill hamilton
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews in article rfg mm usenet ins cwru edu cj cleveland freenet edu john w redelfs wrote in the hands of a defender a is a miracle from god he helps those who help themselves or haven t you ever heard that one before i didn t know god was a secular humanist kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes i ve done all those things and i ve regretted it and i learned a lesson or two so far an aspirin a good talk with your wife or a one week vacation has cured me no need for group therapy or strange religions um kent just what have you been doing with his wife d brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j ai vus j ose croire n etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux au moins je suis autre is that it ends rousseau
talk.religion.misc	re to rob lanphier brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli writes kent with regards to the information contained in the bible which is the original context of this thread brian kendig is inside a huge wall brian is inside the bible and the information contained therein are outside the wall um i think you and the bible are the ones inside the wall there s a really wonderful world out here you really should peek out at it sometime the silly things you keep saying only reinforce the fact that we are on opposite sides of a very high wall i see how incredibly beautiful things are on my side and i only keep telling you about it because i d like to you come join me here brian kendig proves this very sad fact by the absurd things he says for example if i get through into the firey pit i will cease to exist i never said that i said that i would prefer to cease to exist than to be tossed into any god s version of hell i am proposing to brian brian come up here and take a look from this vantage point but brian replies i rather not thank you i am content where i am besides the vista from up there stinks and in the meanwhile brian ignores the facts that he has never up there nor does he realize i had shared the same plateau where brian now stands you say to me brian come up here and take a look from this vantage point but you re in a valley looking at a crayon drawing of a sun and a tree and i can t for the life of me figure out why you re so immersed in it i m the one trying to get you to come up here don t you see brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j ai vus j ose croire n etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux au moins je suis autre is that it ends rousseau
talk.religion.misc	re albert sabin rfox charlie usd edu writes discussion on josephus inserts thanks am i correct then in assuming that that josephus did in fact write about jesus but christian copists embellished it jack
talk.religion.misc	re greek myth and the bible in article d t edmahood infoserv com edmahood infoserv com ed mahood jr writes in pegasus fp dialin uoregon edu pegasus aaa uoregon edu laurie ewbrandt wrote a definiation from a text book used as part of an introductory course in social anthorpology the term myth designates traditionally based dramatic narratives on themes that emphasize the nature of humankind s relationship to nature and to the supernatural from peter b hammand s an introduction to cutural and social anthropology second ed macmillion page i m not sure that you can distinguish between myth and legend so neatly or at all a myth is more than a single story the thought structure and world paradigm in which that story is interpreted is as important a part of the myth as the story itself thus i can think of no story which is meant to be conveyed understandably from one person to another within a single culture which won t rest upon that underlying thought structure and thus transmit some of that culture s mythical truths along with it randy
talk.religion.misc	re davidians and compassion surely you are not equating david koresh with christianity the two are not comparable this is always an option when the sect is causing harm re label the cult to something else cheers kent good point i would not doubt that dk could have spouted verse and debated with best according to reports his extensive bible knowledge was one way he sucked in the fools followers quote bible all you want i too judge what you say be what you do and even more by if it makes sense sense common that is doesn t seem so common after all john morris jwmorris netcom com san diego ca i have no opinion but if i did
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened one more thought the government claimed that they believed he had automatic weapons on the premises he had a license for the caliber machine gun they knew damn well he had one they also knew he had it legally still without the element of surprise they sent in agents to get him for all of this my president takes full responsibility what a guy i hope he gets it the cal gun was a semi auto and was thus legal the batf claims that the davidians also possessed illegally modified ar s and illegal explosives mitchell s todd mst zeus tamu edu if you check the news today ap the authorities also found a state of the art automatic machine gun that investigators did not know was in the cult s arsenal carl stern justice department i imagine the authorities know the difference between semi and fully automatic and probably knew weather the guns were legal as they have access to any relative documentation i e permits in addition the caliber guns plural were semi automatic rifles tim
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened keng den mmc com ken garrido writes royc rbdc wsnc org roy crabtree writes in article keng tunfaire keng den mmc com ken garrido writes lotsa stuff taken out bottom line due process was not served no peaceful attempt to serve a warrant occurred the peaceful attempt to serve the warrant was met with gunfire due process was not served because the branch davidians wanted it that way you think on that did you by any chance see the pictures of the agents in flak jackets climbing up on the roof and breaking windows you call that peaceful if you believed as these people did that they would be attacked by evil forces from the outside found the scores of agents breaking into your compound what would you do your beliefs always determine your actions the beliefs may be wrong from my point of view but they are yours all the same to make it more practical if i attempted to stick you with a needle you would try to stop me because you believe it would hurt or that i do not have that right if you did not you would ignore me you certainly would it you saw me sticking the needle in a tree koresh may have been misguided only god knows but the jews at masada died for what they believed the three hebrews preferred to die in the furnace rather than bow down daniel preferred to die in a lion s den rather than stop praying to his god and as a christian i am prepared to die for my faith koresh was not dying for now reason he had a cause why should he give up the children to forces he was convinced were evil the events are bizarre but they match his beliefs darius
talk.religion.misc	re what right joakimr ifi uio no joakim ruud writes recently i ve asked myself a rather interesting question what right does god have on our lives always assuming there is a god of course in his infinite wisdom he made it perfectly clear that if we don t live according to his rules we will burn in hell well with what right can god make that desicion let s say for the sake of argument that god creates every one of us directly or indirectly it doesn t matter what then happens is that he first creates us and then turns us lose well i didn t ask to be created let s make an analogue if a scientist creates a unique living creature which has happened it was even patented does he then have the right to expect it to behave in a certain matter or die who is god to impose its rules on us who can tell if god is really so righteous as god likes us to believe are all christians a flock of sheep unable to do otherwise that follow the rest hmmmmmmmmmmmm i just want to point out that this is not sarcasm i mean it how should one deal with a man who is convinced that he is acting according to god s will and who there jokke fore believes that he is doing you a favour by stabbing you in the back voltaire
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened keng den mmc com ken garrido writes royc rbdc wsnc org roy crabtree writes in article keng tunfaire keng den mmc com ken garrido writes lotsa stuff taken out bottom line due process was not served no peaceful attempt to serve a warrant occurred the peaceful attempt to serve the warrant was met with gunfire due process was not served because the branch davidians wanted it that way you think on that i am not exactly known as a flower child pacifist but lets call cowpoop cowpoop the peaceful attempt to serve the warrant consisted of the following actions in order batf agents forcing their entry of the compound through second story windows batf agents loosing some grenades allegedly stun or flash grenades which promptly detonated after which according to the tapes i have seen the b d started shooting back now exactly how is it that someone breaking into private property and tossing grenades around is considered peaceful by anyone you think on that which is not to say i do not still hold my previous and entirely correct notions about what should be worn and what arms should be used in assaulting a building jeffrey s medkeff bitnet medkeffjs hiramb po box internet medkeffjs hiramb hiram edu hiram oh pale ebenezer thought it wrong to fight but u s a roaring bill who killed him thought it right
talk.religion.misc	the laws of god was re a kind and loving god in article r e inn kb owl csrv uidaho edu lanphi moscow uidaho edu rob lanphier writes these are two conflicting statements to say one is a clarification of the other is a breach of logic i don t mind people shifting their position on an issue it irritates me when it is said under the premise that no change was made what about deuteronomy is it wrong now did jesus change that if anything he clarified the law such as in that quote you made in the following verses jesus takes several portions of the law and expounds upon the law giving clearer meaning to what god intended sure he does this however he doesn t address the notion of stoning non virgin brides because this needs no clarification are you going to deny that deuteronomy is not patently clear in its intent i see what you are getting at or at least i think i do correct me if i am mistaken but i think you are asking me if i still believe that we should uphold all of the laws pertaining to capital punishment for such things as adultery rape and other heinous crimes as you may recall jesus was confronted by this same question in regards to the adultress who was caught in the act and brought before jesus and his reply let he who is without sin cast the first stone jesus does not deny the sentence that is to due for this violation of the law what do you think of this i think you will agree with me that there are in today s world a lot of modern day pharisees who know the bible from end to end but do not believe in it what good is head knowledge if there is nothing in the heart i ll agree that there is a lot of modern day pharisees that know the bible from end to end and don t believe in it depending on how they use this knowledge they can be scary they can argue any position they desire and back it up with selected parts of the bible such pharisees include david koresh and adolph hitler i will qualify this by saying i don t know if they actually believed what they were preaching but the ends certainly made the means look frightening agreed however just as scary are those that don t know much of the bible but believe every word in fact this is probably scarier since there are far more of these people from what i ve seen in addition they are very easy to manipulate by the aforementioned pharisees since they don t know enough to debate with these people agreed also if one is to use the bible as a reference one must always be open to different interpretations as a christian i have the spirit of god to verify what i believe in the word if what the spirit tells me is not backed up in scripture then the spirit i am communicating with is not of god after all jesus tells us to test the spirits to know for sure that it is from god christianity is not just a set of rules it s a lifestyle that changes one s perspectives and personal conduct and it demands obedience to god s will no it demands obedience to a book if god came down and personally told me how i should behave then i would say that i would be doing god s will by doing it however if preachers pastors and evangelists tell me to obey the will of a book written by people who have been dead for close to two millenia even longer for the ot even if i follow everything in it with my heart i could scarcely be honest with myself by saying i m doing the will of god i obey what the spirit of god tells me to do the spirit will not violate anything that is written in the bible because that is the word of god i do not worship pastors preachers my wife my mother or my father what they tell me does not carry the weight of what god tells me to do and his commands are rienforced in the bible some people can live by it but many others cannot or will not that is their choice and i have to respect it because god respects it too well if god respects it so much how come there is talk in the bible about eternal damnation for non believers i see little respect eminating from the god of the bible i see a selfish and spiteful god eternal damnation is the consequence of the choice one makes in rejecting god if you choose to jump off a cliff you can hardly blame god for you going splat at the bottom he knows that if you choose to jump that you will die but he will not prevent you from making that choice in fact he sent his son to stand on the edge of the cliff and tell everyone of what lies below to prove that point jesus took that plunge himself but he being god was able to rise up again i have seen the example of christ and have chosen not to jump and i m trying to tell you not to jump or else you ll go splat you don t have to listen to me and i won t stop you if you decide to jump i only ask that you check it out before taking the plunge you owe it to yourself i don t like seeing anyone go splat god be with you malcolm lee
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened douglas c meier you can t play electro magnetic golf northwestern university acns according to the rules of centrifugal this university is too commie bumblepuppy huxley brave new world lib pinko to have these views dmeier casbah acns nwu edu
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened in article c uvqo gb murdoch acc virginia edu rwd f poe acc virginia edu rob dobson writes in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes i m mostly angry why the davidians didn t spare the children the awful suffering see my other posting i m in a bad temper well dozens of children left the compound between the original batf assualt and the fbi assault weeks later so if koresh really wanted to kill children why did he let so many go word is that the ones he let go were not his visit the sounding board bbs a wildcat bbs foot the bill let s get a new president patrick taylor ericsson network systems thx exuptr exu ericsson se don t let the se fool you
talk.religion.misc	magick and parallel universes was the universe and black holes in article ifpmcx vb fzfr andrew cmu edu nm w andrew cmu edu nanci ann miller writes emarsh hernes sun eng sun com eric marsh writes btw the parallel universe approach implys an element of mind in the very physical reality of the universe this sounds interesting but what exactly do you mean well the best thing to do is to read the book parallel universes by dr fred wolf in essence dr wolf says that one interpretation of the sub atomic particle wave duality is that what we perceive as a wave is actually an infinate number of parallel universes overlaid and in each of these universes there is a particle in a different location when we do something to make a particle appear we are actually causing all the parallel universes to collapse into one apparently this is one line of thought on the nature of qm that is going through some of the scientific community dr wolf and many others claim that somehow the collapse is caused by the mental effort of observing the particle this implys that mind is more than merely a biological phenomenon he then extrapolates that if mind is an integral part of the universe then perhaps consciousness is the element that gives order and form to the universe s it themself s it all gets rather interesting but what i find facinating is that this would explain the phenomenon of magick as practiced in my religion dr wolf speculates that the ordering functionality of mind could be caused by the selection of a future from an infinite number of possible futures he says that this might be done by some sort of communication between ones current and possible future selves i have long speculated that if magick is not merely a form of self delusion then perhaps it could be caused by some sort of a selection of one of many possible futures i realize that this gets pretty bizarre but it never hurts to keep an open mind and at least file it all away as another possibile explaination of the world in which we find ourselves after all the more we learn about the universe in which we live the more we learn that it is truly a very strange place nanci eric
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article r su dm horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes frank unless you didn t realize it you are just now involved in a debate where we have various opinions and each entity has its own frame where the opinion is expressed i think i don t need to state the dreadful r word so it s sometimes correct to say that morality is objective or what if you were able to prove that morality is objective then it would be correct to do so the problem is by the very meaning of the words in question to do so is oxymoronic of course you could redefine the words but that would still not lend support to the underlying concept after all i could hardly be wrong without dragging in the o word this does not parse how could you hardly be wrong without dragging in the o word for your part when you say that relativism is true that s just your opinion why do folk get so heated then if a belief in relativism is merely a matter of taste to be fair you have been very calm i get the impression that s because you don t care about notions of objectivity in any flavour right i have no problem with objectivity at all it is my objectivity that has led me to conclude that morality is subjective frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon eric
talk.religion.misc	re why did they behave as they did waco reading suggestion in article pgf srl cacs usl edu pgf srl cacs usl edu phil g fraering writes how come noone mentions eric hoffer when talking about fanatic behavior anymore good point if you haven t read the true believer by eric hoffer do so at your first opportunity i don t know why hoffer is out of style now but the true believer is still the best explanation of nutball behavior ever written bill vanhorne
talk.religion.misc	daniel v zoroaster was the jewish discomfort with jesus in article bd a paranet fidonet org bill carlson p f n z fidonet org bill carlson writes since everywhere i look zoroaster is suggested as being a probable descendant of daniel suppose you prove he wasn t zoroaster is far older than daniel if anything one could claim that in a sense daniel is a descendant of zoroaster as daniel though being hebrew has assimilated into zoroastrianism and has successfully introduced the religion into the tanakh of judaism however the majority of the book is in hellenistic aramaic not babylonian aramaic and only has kethuvim or writing status ref encyclopedia of religion mircea eliade daniel or in hebrew daniyye l hero of the biblical book that bears his name daniel is presented as a jew in the babylonian exile who achieved notoriety in the royal court for his dream interpretations and cryptography and for his salvation from death in a lion s pit he also appears in the last chapters of the book as the revealer of divine mysteries and of the timetables of israel s restoration to national religious autonomy as a practitioner of oneiromancy in the court described in daniel written in the third person daniel per forms his interpretations alone while as a visionary apocalyptist in daniel written in the first person he is in need of an angel to help him decode his visions and mysteries of the future it is likely that the name daniel is pseudonymous a deliberate allusion to a wise and righteous man known from ugaritic legend and earlier biblical tradition ez the authorship of the book is complicated not only by the diverse narrative voices and content but by its language daniel a and are written in hebrew whereas daniel b is in aramaic the language division parallels the subject division daniel concerns legends and dream interpretations concerns apocalyptic visions and interpretations of older prophecies the overall chronological scheme as well as internal thematic balances daniel is chiliastically related suggest an attempt at redactional unity after the prefatory tale emphasizing the life in court and the loyalty of daniel and some youths to their ancestral religion a chronological ordering is discernable a sequence from king nebuchadrezzar to darius is reported dn much of this royal dating and even some of the tales are problematic for example daniel speaks of nebuchadrezzar s transformation into a beast a story that is reported in the qumran scrolls of nabonidus belshazzar is portrayed as the last king of babylon although he was never king and darius is called a mede who conquered babylon and is placed before cyrus ii of persia although no such darius is known the medes followed the persians and darius is the name of several persian kings presumably the episodes of daniel depicting a series of monarchical reversals episodes of ritual observances and reports of miraculous deliverances were collected in the seleucid period late fourth to mid second century bce in order to reinvigorate waning jewish hopes in divine providence and encourage steadfast faith the visions of daniel reporting events from the reign of belshazzar to that of cyrus ii but actually predicting the overthrow of seleucid rule in palestine were collected and published during the reign of antiochus iv prior to the maccabean revolt for it was then beginning in bce that the jews were put to the test concerning their allegiance to judaism and their ancestral traditions and many refused to desecrate the statues of moses and endured a martyr s death for their resolute trust in divine dominion all of the visions of daniel dramatize this dominion in different ways for example via images of the enthronement of a god of judgment with a son of man invested with rule this figure was interpreted by jews as michael the archangel and by christians as christ in chapter via zodiacal images of cosmic beasts with bizarre manifestations as in chapter or via complex reinterpretations of ancient prophecies especially those of jeremiah as found in daniel the imagery of the four beasts in chapter paralleled by the image of four metals in chapter representing four kingdoms to be overthrown by a fifth monarchy of divine origin is one of the enduring images of the book it sur vived as a prototype of jewish and christian historical and apocalyptic schemes to the end of the middle ages the role and power of this imagery in the fifteenth and sixteenth century work of the exegete isaac abravanel the scientist isaac newton and the philosopher jean bodin and among the fifth monarchy men of seventeenth century england for example is abiding testimony to the use of this ancient topos in organizing the chiliastic imagination of diverse thinkers and groups the schema is still used to this day by various groups predicting the apocalyptic advent the encouragement in the face of religious persecution that is found and propagandized in daniel contains a remarkable reinterpretation of isaiah regarding the suffering servant of god not as all israel but as the select faithful neither the opening stories about daniel and the youths nor the final martyrological allusions advocate violence or revolt they rather advocate a stance of piety civil disobedience and trustful resignation victory for the faithful is in the hands of the archangel michael and the martyrs will be resurrected and granted astral immortality persumably the circles behind the book were not the same as the maccabean fighters and may reflect some proto pharisaic group of hasidim or pietists the themes of resistance to oppression freedom of worship preservation of monotheistic integrity the overthrow of historical dominions and the acknowledgement of the god of heaven recur throughout the book and have served as a token of trust for the faithful in their darkest hour zarathushtra founder of the religion know as zoroastrianism or mazdaism from mazda or ahura mazda the name of the god prophesied by zarathushtra the etymology and history of zarathushtra the avestan and oldest form of the name as uncertain both in various iranian languages and in related forms else where there may have been an old persian form zara ushtra from which the greek form zoroastres may be derived and there may have existed an old iranian form zarat ushtra to which may be linked the middle iranian zrdrwsht several middle persian forms such as zrtwsht and the new persian zardusht we can state with certainty only that the second half of the name ushtra means camel the form zoroaster derived from the greek zoroastres was used traditionally in european culture until the eighteenth century when zarathustra closer to the original and as found in nietzsche came into common use after the rediscovery of the avesta the collection of sacred books of zoroastrianism and the resulting studies in iranian philology see avesta notwithstanding the great and continued popularity of zarathushtra even in western culture the sources available to us are few extremely fragmented and heterogeneous our principle sources are the five gathas songs attributed to zarathushtra himself and included in the yasna section of the avesta gatha ahunavaiti yasna gatha ushtavaiti yasna gatha spentamainyu yasna gatha vokukhshathra yasna and gatha vashishtoishti yasna the last of which was probably written after the prophet s death other sources of considerable albeit varying importance are the younger avesta and the remaining zoroastrian religious literature in particular the pahlavi texts of the ninth and tenth centures ce although the achaemenid inscriptions sixth to fourth centures bce never mention zarathushtra he is mentioned by some greek sources of the time not however by herodotus who seems unaware of him the avesta does not provide any direct or explicit data concerning the true chronological history of zarathushtra but the text is useful in an indirect way as it clearly implies that the environment in which zoroastrianism arose was not that of iran under the medes or the persians the greek sources on the other hand do provide some information concerning the time of zarathushtra although from a historical point of view they are unreliable some place him six thousand years before the trojan war xanthus of lydia eudoxus of cnidus hermippus hermodorus aristotle plutarch diogenes laertius and pliny the account by xanthus of lydia however has also been interpreted by some to mean six hundred rather than six thousand years before the expedition of xerxes against greece this interpretation is favored by diogenes laertius who makes reference to xanthus but although a few scholars a s shabazi helmut humbach have recently attempted to rehabilitate it under various pretexts it is generally rejected although the historical value of the greek sources is negligible they are nonetheless important in that they show that the millenarian doctrine of history of the cosmos had already been developed in iran by the achaemenid period as the above account would seem to demonstrate they also show that by this time zarathushtra was already seen as an almost mythical figure one from an extremely distant past all of this leads to the conclusion that the prophet could not have belonged to a historical period contemporary with or even close to that of the achaemenids later zoroastrian sources the pahlavi texts do provide an absolute chrono logy for zarathushtra one that was also accepted by some arab authors accord ing to these sources zarathushtra lived or years before alexander again scholars are divided on the validity of the chronology some view it as historically reliable while others believe that it is devoid of historical justification the most convincing arguments however seem to support the latter position the figure of years is accurate only on the surface because it represents in fact the more general one of which was employed by sasanid propagandists to locate zarathushtra s lifetime roughly around the beginning of iranian domination for a number of reasons connected with complex problems inherent in the iranian chronology there was also a desire on the part of the sasanid propagandists to avoid any millenarian threat in this context zarathushtra whom tradition places early in the ninth millennium after the beginning of the cosmos converted vishtaspa at the age of forty two and vishtaspa s conversion was viewed by some as the beginning of the millennium thus explaining the double date of and years before alexander given the unreliability of the few available sources we are forced to reconstruct an absolute chronology on the basis of other elements principally on the contention that zarathushtra must have lived a few centuries before cyrus the great cambyses and darius as there is no mention in the avesta of the great political achievements that took place in western iran in the middle of the first millennium bce nor is there any mention of the history of that period which was to lead iran to a position of such predominance at the same time for a number of reasons going back much further in history would not be justified consequently the traditionally accepted theory of placing zara thushtra around the beginning of the first millennium bce appears to be the most legitimate as to zarathushtra s land of origin many scholars agree on the basis of valid arguments that he must have come from eastern iran some have held that he was a mede largely because of a late iranian tradition linking zarathushtra with azerbaijan but also because of linguistic reasons based on the language of the avesta this hypothesis however should be discarded as we can suppose both on historical and linguistic grounds that zarathushtra came from the east even though we do not know precisely from which region there is a considerable variety of opinion on this particular matter including the improbable view that he came from chorasmia or present day khorezm or from a wider chorasmian region reaching as far as the oases of merv and herat most likely however zarathushtra s land of origin is somewhere in the vast area stretching from the hindu kush mountain range to the more southern regions of bactria and arachosia modern qandahar as well as drangiana the area of lake helmand it would thus be located in what is now afghanistan or in the border regions of iran zarathushtra himself tells us that he belonged to the priestly caste yasna he was a zaotar cf sanskrit hotr that is a priest belonging to a specific group connected with a school that produced very elaborate and learned religious poetry even in the so called younger avesta he is described as an athravan yashts a more general term encompassing the entire priestly caste to enter it he had undergone a long and rigid training which he used to lend dignity as in the gathas to the contents of his new message the product of a great and original ethical mind zarathushtra also belongs to that venerable priestly tradition linking india to iran in another way by centering his teachings on the praise of the ashavan or possessor of asha that is the one who as in the vedic rtavan seeks truth and masters it thus becoming ashavan in this life almost an initiate and blessed after death any good follower of such teachings seeks the vision of asha just as those chosing the right path in vedic india aspired to the vision of the sun a manifestation of rta behind these concepts and this language lies the great tradition of aryan mysticism that is of indo iranian mysticism zarathushtra s greatness however does not lie in his having belonged to a particular religious tradition rather it lies in the innovation and strength of his message which was in itself a break in the tradition one that force fully and effectively introduced two great revolutionary ideas dualistic monotheism the wise lord who fathers two twin spirits the beneficent and the evil and the expectation of a transfiguration av frashokereti pahl frashgird of life and existence see frashokereti both his monotheistic and dualistic ideas and his particular soteriological doctrine deeply separate zarathushtra s teachings from the indo iranian tradi tions of his upbringing they exemplify his rebellion against a formalistic and ritualistic religion that did not provide adequate answers to the problem of evil because of his basic tenets zarathushtra who advocated an inward religiosity and the right of the individual to resist the imperatives of tradi tion can be numbered among the greatest of religious figures another original facet of zarathushtra s message one that is not easy to understand but which however holds the key to a deeper understanding of the complex intellectual and poetic structure of the gathas is the doctrine of the amesha spentas the beneficent immortals these are spiritualizations of the abstract notions of good thought best truth desirable power bounteous devotion wholeness and immortality all of which operate according to a system of interrelations and correlations and can simultaneously be the manifestations of a divinity and of human virtue see amesha spentas other than the names of his father pourushaspa possessing gray horses and of his mother dughdova one who has milked we know almost nothing of zarathushtra s life a late pahlavi text also give the names of four brothers according to tradition zarathushtra left home at the age of twenty and at thirty he was subject to a revelation both through an intense and powerful inspiration and through a vision only after ten years had passed however did he succeed in converting a cousin of his maidhyoimah to his beliefs he was strongly opposed in his native land by kavis karapans and usijs priestly groups associated with traditional teachings and practices this hostility caused him to leave his region yasna and to seek refuge at the court of kavi vishtaspa a ruler who had been converted to the new religion together with his wife hutaosa when the prophet according to tradition was forty two years old we also know the name of a son isat vastra desiring pastures and of three daughters born of his first wife as well as the names of two more sons urvatatnara commanding men and hvarecithra sun faced born of his second wife hvovi a member of the influential hvogva possessing good cattle family two other figures belonging to the hvogva family are mentioned frashaoshtra and jamaspa the former as hvovi s father and the latter as the husband of the third daughter of the prophet pouruchista very thoughtful whose wedding is celebrated in the fifth hymm in the gathas yasna again according to tradition zarathushtra died at the age of seventy seven he was assassinated by a karapan a priest of the old religion who belonged to the tuirya tribe and was called tur i bradres his name is known only in the pahlavi form the paucity of information on the prophet s life is compensated by a tradi tion rich in legendary detail that arose through the centuries in zoroastrian communities the main texts documenting the tradition are the seventh book of the denkard a pahlavi work dating from the ninth century ce as well as passages from other pahlavi texts and a new persian work from the thirteenth century the zarathusht nama book of zarathushtra written by zaratusht i bahram i pazhdu mythical and ritual elements prevail in the later legends about zarathushtra which idealize him into a symbol and make him the archetype of the perfect man zarathushtra s great popularity in the ancient world continued throughout the renaissance until the enlightenment during the classical and hellenistic periods he was viewed as a wise man a typical representative of an alien wisdom a master of the secrets of heaven and earth a seer astrologer psychologist and wonder worker pythagorean thinkers went so far as to see the influence of zarathushtra on pythagoras himself and the academicians always openly admired the persian thinker who founded the school of the magi and advocated a doctrine of dualism earliest christianity viewed zarathushtra as a precursor of the christian faith one who not only prophesied as had the biblical prophets the advent of the messiah but also predicted the supernatural sign of his coming the star that was to appear in the east and guide the three magi to the manger in bethlehem see magi this christian interpretation is derived from the zoroastrian doctrine of the saoshyant the savior of the future see saoshyant later however religious struggles arose during the sasanid empire in persia third to seventh centuries ce which linked the spread of christianity with the roman empire zarathushtra s popularity in the christian world began to decline the iranian prophet who had been praised often by the gnostic schools and who had been seen by mani as one of the three great messengers from the past was now seen instead as a leader of imposture and heresy a teacher of the diabolic arts of witchery but during the renaiss ance and the enlightenment european cultures reverted to the image of zara thushtra that had come down through classical and hellenistic antiquity he was viewed once again as a great and wise man as the author of the chaldean oracles and probably inventor of qabbalah as a teacher of astrology as a possible bridge between christianity and platonism and at times as in voltaire as a symbol of non christian wisdom after western philology rediscovered zarathushtra during the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries friedrich nietzsche in an intentional paradox gave the name zarathustra to the hero of his work also sprach zarathustra nietzsche saw the iranian prophet as the first to have discovered the true motive force underlying all things that is the eternal struggle between good and evil see also zoroastrianism
talk.religion.misc	re abortion and private health coverage letters regarding on apr in re abortion and private he user not a boomer desire wrig writes and while courts have found it ok to charge women less for auto insurance it s illegal to charge them more for health insurance because they live longer or make them pay more into retirement funds so the legal arena isn t being consistent on the gender issue not so in pa recently the gender inequity in auto insurance was removed just a point
talk.religion.misc	re burden of proof hamilton hydra cs gmr com bill hamilton writes cfaehl vesta unm edu chris faehl writes ray engr latech edu bill ray writes note followups go to alt atheism talk religion misc talk origins deleted more deleted if you say x statement and give it the authority of fact i will respond by asking you why you aren t obligated to say anything but if your intent is to convince me that x statement is true then yes the burden of proof is upon you some interesting stuff on the lines of the burden of proof belongs to god if you are merely giving testimony to your beliefs then you are an egotist please excuse me if i missed an earlier part of this thread in which bill came across like an egotist what i saw was simply obedience to the scriptural command to always be ready to give a reason for the joy that is in you the remainder of my article deleted stated why one would be an egotist to believe that someone cared about what bill r thought he needed to say about god whether they did or not is irrelevant jumping on your trailer always be ready etc then that goes right back to the burden of proof question go ahead and give me a reason why you think god exists if you state such a thing bill hamilton chris faehl cfaehl vesta unm edu
talk.religion.misc	re biblical backing of koresh s tape cites enclosed in article r q vk sbctri sbc com tph susie sbc com timothy p henrion writes in article apr woods ulowell edu cotera woods ulowell edu writes i assume you have evidence that he was responsible for the deaths only my common sense the fire was caused by either koresh and his followers or by the fbi atf cia kgb and maybe the harper valley pta since you are throwing around the evidence arguement i ll throw it back can you prove any government agency did it please don t resort to they covered it up so that proves they did it or any wild theories about how the government agencies intentionally started the fire the key words are proof and evidence proves they did it no which is why i want an investigation please explain how koresh was defending himself from those children who burned who ever said he was what is obvious is that he was defending himself and his followers from the government whether you think he was right or wrong in this is another question if he was right then he had the moral right to kill those kgbatf agents ray cote there s no government like no government
talk.religion.misc	re abortion in article c n xm vsd watson ibm com larry margolis margoli watson ibm com writes in uupcb ozonehole com anthony landreneau ozonehole com anthony landreneau writes the rape has passed there is nothing that will ever take that away true but forcing her to remain pregnant continues the violation of her body for another months i see this as being unbelievably cruel if she doesn t welcome the excruciating pain of labor the selfish bitch deserves to die in childbirth she was probably lying about the rape anyway charlie
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli wrote hmm it seems that this is the core of christianity then you have to feel guilty and then there s this single personality that will save you from this universal guilt feeling brian i will tell you a secret i don t feel guilty at all i do mistakes and i regret them however i ve never had this huge guilt feeling hanging over my shoulder i will tell you another secret i get this burning sensation in my hand every time i hold it over a candle the pain does not fill my entire body and i m told the longer i hold it here the less it ll hurt it ll eventually burn up the nerves or so i m told so i suppose i should just ignore the pain because holding my hand over the candle is something i just want to do i ve got the right don t i your body feels pain to let you know something is wrong it s your body s alarm system informing you that something needs your attention a fever tells you that you are sick and need some sort of care guilt can be seen as that emotional or spiritual alarm just informing you that there is something that you ve done that requires your attention it doesn t require a personality type to become a believer it requires someone who is willing to listen to themselves their body soul all i know is that i don t know everything and frankly speaking i don t care life is fun anyway i recognize that i m not perfect but that does not hinder me from have a healthy and inspiring life for several years all i knew is i really liked dropping cid lsd frankly speaking i didn t really care it was fun anyway it didn t matter that every child my wife and i want to have are at a tremendously greater risk of serious birth defects for several years all i knew is i really liked having sex with as many women as i could convice frankly speaking i didn t care i didn t care that i was putting each one of them at risk as well as their future partners it didn t matter that for the first decade of my marriage my wife and i will have the worry that possibly that last sneeze meant something much worse than a cold there are humans that subscribe to the same notion the nice thing is that when you finally shake off this huge burden the shoulders feel far more relaxed the nice thing about pain killers if you take enough you won t care about the fever shortness of breath or pain jason d smith jasons atlastele com i m not young enough to know everything x
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article markp elvis wri com markp elvis wri com mark pundurs writes atoms are not objective they aren t even real what scientists call an atom is nothing more than a mathematical model that describes certain physical observable properties of our surroundings all of which is subjective omigod it s an operationalist sorry jim but the idea that a theory explaining a myriad of distinctly different observations is merely a model is more than sensible people can accept your phobia about objective reality notwithstanding the point about its being real or not is that one does not waste time with what reality might be when one wants predictions the questions if the atoms are there or if something else is there making measurements indicate atoms is not necessary in such a system and one does not have to write a new theory of existence everytime new models are used in physics don t forget to prove your last sentence namely that sensible don t accept that benedikt
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened tell me are you really this stupid or are you just pretending tell me are you really this stupid or are you just pretending i have fire insurance that i hope i never have to use a fire insurance is not an offensive weapon i have a spare tire in my trunk that i hope i never have to use a spare tire is not an offensive weapon how should one deal with a man who is convinced that he is acting according to god s will and who there jokke fore believes that he is doing you a favour by stabbing you in the back voltaire
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened in article c w ca m s noose ecn purdue edu tbrent ecn purdue edu timothy j brent writes if you check the news today ap the authorities also found a state of the art automatic machine gun that investigators did not know was in the cult s arsenal carl stern justice department in article r hmlinnc mojo eng umd edu russotto eng umd edu matthew t russotto writes yeah in a fire that reportedly burned hotter than degrees hot enough to make the bodies still unidentifiable the authorities found a gun that was recognizably fully automatic and state of the art isn t that conveeeenient convenient it seems very appropriate that this is cross posted to alt conspiracy assuming the most favorable interpretation of your degree measurement that the temperature is in centigrade rather than the more common in the us fahrenheit you are still laboring under at least misconceptions you seem to believe that steel melts somewhere around c actually the melting point of most iron alloys and steels are iron alloys is in the neighborhood of c even if the gun were found in area which achieved the c temperature the steel parts of the gun would not be deformed and it would still be trivial to identify the nature of the weapon a fire is not an isothermal process there are hot spots and cold spots though cold is purely a relative term so the weapon was not necessarily situated in a hot spot as you seem to imply and even if it was so what it would not have melted anyway darin wilkins scubed com i will be president for food
talk.religion.misc	re laws of god was re a kind and loving god mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee writes dpw sei cmu edu david wood writes mlee ra royalroads ca malcolm lee writes these laws written for the israelites god s chosen people whom god had expressly set apart from the rest of the world the israelites were a direct witness to god s existence to disobey god after knowing that god is real would be an outright denial of god and therefore immediately punishable remember these laws were written for a different time and applied only to god s chosen people but jesus has changed all of that we are living in the age of grace sin is no longer immediately punishable by death there is repentance and there is salvation through our lord jesus christ and not just for a few chosen people salvation is available to everyone jew and gentile alike sorry if this is late for the thread but i thought god was supposed to be constant and never changing how do you reconcile this common christian view with the paragraph above god never changes sorry but yes he does by your own description he still loves us sending jesus was one of his attempts to reconcile with mankind humorous this notion of an all knowing all powerful god who must attempt to reconcile with his lowly creations i realize that it is not possible to penetrate such logic but is there any chance that you might consider that an omnipotent god need not attempt anything and further that an attempt to reconcile implies a lack of omniscience what you are doing here is projecting human weaknesses onto your god also while we re at it how do you reconcile a kind and loving god with the judeo christian view that sin was at one time immediately punishable by death was killing people for sinning god s way of showing kindness and love sinning in the face of god was punishable by immediate death there are several ot passages to back this up god is god but all humans are sinners thus all pre jesus humans should have been punished with death we aren t punished with sin now of course because god has changed he required a brutal sadistic sacrifice of his own blood in order to allow us to sin without immediate death he cannot tolerate the prescence of sin in his midst yet he does so now he has changed the sadistic murder of his own son has made him more tolerant of our sins besides his midst is everywhere so your statement is meaningless he tolerates sin in hell which surely is in his midst as well also given that he is all knowing he must have eternal knowledge of who will commit which sins as well as when and where so what does tolerance have to do with anything all of this is absolute nonsense unless your god is not indeed all knowing and all powerful or unless he doesn t take the personal interest in everyday affairs that you claim and the israelites knew this and still some of them chose to disobey and were destroyed were these people kind and loving themselves not relevant the claim of kindness and lovingness was made by you in reference to your god the nature of his creations victims is not at issue god gave them every break he could but in the end he really had no choice in the matter i see an all knowing god who did not know what the ultimate outcome would be and an all powerful god who had no choice in the matter mindmush seeing as how we were failing to achieve salvation on our own he sent his son to die for us to be the ultimate sin offering did i miss something did you give some indication at to why a kind and loving god should require sadistic human sacrifice to allow his own botched creations to achieve salvation is the fact the he no longer does this an admission on his part of having made a mistake he sent his son as a consolation to us out of love i note that your answer physically follows my question but i fail to discern a connection between the two by the way for what am i being consoled now that we are living in the age of grace does this mean that for our sins god now damns us to eternal hell after we die rather than killing us immediately if so is this eternal damnation an example of a kind and loving god hey let s be fair for a moment here kind and loving does not mean a free ride why not by the way i note for the record that you didn t answer the questions there is an amount of give and take as in any relationship parents are supposed to be kind and loving but does that mean that children can do whatever they want not part of being a parent means administering punishment when the child is at fault death and or eternal damnation is your idea of correctional punishment i hope you aren t a parent part of being a parent means giving instruction god tests us through the trial of life such that we may grow stronger he teaches what is right and what is wrong this is quite an elaborate fantasy that you ve constructed but sadly it lacks a basis in reality it also does not address the questions that i raised the consequences of our actions are made clear to us be it heaven or be it hell if god did not follow through with what he has warned us about he would not be a very good parent the god that you describe is not a good parent but a tyrant in parenting if a parent issues a warning but does not follow through with it the children will not take that parent s words very seriously god does the same by telling us who have ears to hear what to do and what not to do by life s trials we see the folly of doing our own will rather than his he warns us about the consequences of rejecting him when it comes time for judgement sorry was that the god of the bible whose rules i am to follow or the god of the koran the vedas the book of koresh oh yes it s all so clear do we follow him i will bully for you
talk.religion.misc	re cults who keeps them going in article sbuckley sfu ca sbuckley fraser sfu ca stephen buckley writes muttiah thistle ecn purdue edu ranjan s muttiah writes mr clinton said today that the horrible tragedy of the waco fiasco should remind those who join cults of the dangers of doing so now i began scratching my head thinking a bad sign don t the mainstream religions in this case christianity or the th day adventist in particular just keep these guys going isn t mr clinton condemning his own religion after all isn t it a cult too bad thoughts these well it depends on whether you take the literal dictionary definition of cult and say all faiths are cults or if you take a more social context view of cult which allows you to recognize mainstream religions as socially acceptable and cults as groups that involve techniques of brain washing and all the other characteristics that define oppressive probly not the best word cult behaviour my understanding of the academic use of the word cult is that it is a group of people oriented around a single authority figure it need not be religious however i have seen plenty of religious cults including some that mainstream eric
talk.religion.misc	re merlin mithras and magick in article yag b w w anarky tch org melchar anarky tch org melchar writes i ve read many things like this in the past yet not quite so blatant a comparison of christian and pagan roman myth practice is it all historical how often has merlin myrddin been associated with roman gods how often has he been associated with mithras does anyone know where mithras originated in asia what part thyagi houseofkaos abyss com mithraic worship predates xianity but in many ways is similar it was a mystery cult worship in which not all the information was available to all members tests had to be passed at each stage new info was offered to the worshipper similar to the masons in more than one way of mithras a sun deity he was cyclic went down to darkness was reborn inspired hope fought against the darkness was popular and charismatic the worship originated in persia was linked to the ahura mazda wow this is news to me it started in tarsus you know where paul of nt fame was from not to be nasty but get a clue read the orgins of the mithraic mysteries by dulansey hey hasn t anyone read manly p hall s works perhaps it might be worth a try cults for a while it threatened to eclipse xianity however it suffered from one fatal flaw it only accepted free men as members xianity took women and slaves and anyone it could get
talk.religion.misc	re biblical backing of koresh s tape cites enclosed in article apr woods ulowell edu cotera woods ulowell edu writes in article r q vk sbctri sbc com tph susie sbc com timothy p henrion writes please explain how koresh was defending himself from those children who burned who ever said he was what is obvious is that he was defending himself and his followers from the government whether you think he was right or wrong in this is another question if he was right then he had the moral right to kill those kgbatf agents ray cote the killing of the atf agents is a separate issue my point is that many children died because of koresh defending himself did he have what you call the moral right to keep those children in a dangerous enviroment in order to defend himself tim henrion southwestern bell technology resources thenrion sbctri sbc com
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is markp avignon mark pundurs writes mathew mathew mantis co uk writes markp elvis wri com mark pundurs writes in v rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mantis co uk mathew writes there s no objective physics einstein and bohr have told us that speaking as one who knows relativity and quantum mechanics i say bullshit speaking as someone who also knows relativity and quantum mechanics i say go ahead punk make my day my degree can beat up your degree ok refer us to the place in einstein s or bohr s writings where he said there s no objective physics ah you taking everything as literal quotation no wonder you re confused first can i ask that we decide on a definition of objective there s no objective reality lsd should be sufficient to prove that speaking as one who has taken lsd i say bullshit well i ll have to bow to your superior knowledge on that one but i think i detect a pattern in your responses how about some actual support for your dismissals you take lsd and it skews your perception of reality you come down and your perceptions unskew and how could striving toward an ideal be in any way useful if the ideal had no objective existence a perfectly efficient power station would convert all of the energy in coal into electricity there is absolutely no way we can build a perfect power station it s an ideal but striving towards that ideal is undeniably useful and valuable is it not ok let me narrow the question is it useful to strive toward a nonexistent objective ethics i d guess that it might be in what way it may be the case that some people are unable to evaluate complex moral issues rather than leaving them to behave immorally it might be better to offer them an abstract nonexistent objective system of ethics which they can strive towards coded into rules which they don t have to derive for themselves i tend to feel that this is pretty much what we all have as morality anyway mathew
talk.religion.misc	moral relativism what if we all agree was re after etc frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article q rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes got it in one similarly a moral relativist will not judge one moral syste to be better than another in every possible circumstance this does not however preclude him from judging one moral system to be better than anothe in a specific set of circumstances nor does it preclude a set of moral relativists from collectively judging a moral system from some set of circumstances which they all agree they are in o k this makes sense to me i m serious you ve explained something to me which i never understood before but just for grins suppose we almost all agree that we are in a set of circumstances called reality what then then we all live happily ever after seriously if we all agreed on the circumstances we re in i suspect we d all agree on the best course of action unfortunately i have no confidence that such a situation will ever arise some of us think there s a big god in the sky some don t some think they ve been chosen by god others disagree some think they are infallible others think otherwise until those disagreements over circumstances can be ironed out there s little hope of everyone agreeing or say for all practical intents and purposes there is no frame of reference in which thus and such is good isn t that approximately objective in the same way that we usually expect a speeding bullet to outrun a snail yes i think that for example only a vanishingly small number of people would hold that there s a frame of reference in which gassing six million jews is good so that s probably about as close to an objective moral value as i ve encountered in my life so far for example if we hear of a bomb in a crowded area isn t it a rather sensible first guess that this is an immoral act even though there conceivably might be some tail end case that would justify it well i think your example s poor if the bomb s in iraq for example and was dropped by an american plane many people would hold that it was a moral act and what weasel word do you use to describe that frame of reference if it isn t an objective reality for values i m sorry i can t parse an objective reality for values could you tr y again s an objective reality for values some values are real even in the face of disagreement i still don t quite see what you re trying to say i assume by values you mean moral values yes in which case what do you mean by real what is a real moral value as opposed to an unreal one i mean to say that values are as real as horses whatever you understand by a horse being real is pretty much what i mean about a value being real hmm so these moral values have a perceptible physical presence if you are saying that some moral systems are better than others in your opinion then all you get is infinite regress sorry but in what way is it an infinite regress it looks extremely finite to me i meant that it s never more than your opinion right and the chain ends right there the buck stops with me it s not an infinite regress you ve clarified this for me above my understanding is now that if a supermajority of relativists agree that thus and such is wrong in almost any or all frames of reference then they re saying something which is to all practical intents and purposes no different than what i m saying right the key point however is that there are vanishingly few of these moral issues where we can get of people to agree on the outcome for all frames of reference and agree on the frames of reference what you do not get is any justification for saying that the moral system of the terrorist is inferior to that of the man of peace sorry but that s not so i can provide a justification for asserting that the moral system of the terrorist is inferior to that of the man of peace i just can t provide a justification which works in all possible circumstances logically possible or actually possible i can t manage either killing hitler using a car bomb would have been a terrorist act but i have to admit that i couldn t exactly condemn it although there are tricky philosophical issues to do with hindsight by which i mean are you stretching possible to include events such as the atoms in my terminal switching places so that the terminal turns upside down or do you think it likely that circumstances will arise in which terrorism is superior to peace i think that circumstances have already arisen where terrorism would have been better than peace better in terms of numbers of innocent people killed assuming it was successful terrorism of course mathew
talk.religion.misc	what about when there s complete disagreement was re after stuff there are actually some talk abortion related comments below believe it or not frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article w rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mathew mant is co uk writes frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes specifically i d like to know what relativism concludes when two people grotesquely disagree is it a both are right b one of them is wrong and sometimes though perhaps rarely we have a pretty good idea who it is c one of them is wrong but we never have any information as to who so we make our best guess if we really must make a decision d the idea of a right moral judgement is meaningless implying that whether peace is better than war e g is a meaningless question and need not be discussed for it has no correct answer e something else a short positive assertion would be nice from whose point of view would you like to know what relativism concludes one of the people involved in the argument or some third person observing the arguers i ve just come from responding another of your posts where some pennies have dropped for me but it would clarify further if you would answer from the point of view of any disinterested observers perhaps an observer as likely to be in position a as in position b where a and b disagree in the future and have his or her conclusion now binding on them at that time well if our observer x is as likely to be in a s position as b s and if he agrees that both a and b are making appropriate observations and inferences regarding the situation then i would expect him to conclude that there is no right answer hopefully there would be some other factor which would allow him to make some judgement regarding which answer to accept if on the other hand he disagrees with the principles of either a or b i suspect he would make a decision in favour of the other one it is unfortunately the case that not all moral arguments have answers from all perspectives for instance i am completely unable to come to any conclusion regarding whether abortion should be allowed or not from my perspective in an ideal world all living things would have a right to life but in an ideal world women would have the absolute right to do what they like with their own bodies clearly there is no way to resolve in favour of both these principles therefore i agree with the compromise solution of allowing abortion up to a certain time after conception and deciding on the time based on various sometimes ill defined criteria this is also a sensible move i think because it lets people make their own decisions within reason and for what it s worth i am reasonably happy with current uk abortion law similarly the situation in what s left of yugoslavia is a horrible mess and i really can t see my way to any sort of conclusion there i don t even know enough to imagine what sort of compromise one might manage mathew
talk.religion.misc	re koresh doctrine of f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu writes in article watson mariner sce carleton ca watson sce carleton ca stephen watson writes question for those of you who seem to be fundamentalists stephen tice the cotera joe gaut et al apologies if i ve mislabelled any of you i ve only started reading t r m since the bd disaster but i know the cotera is a fundy and are defending koresh and his beliefs as an example of true christianity under persecution from the the big bad secular state what is your opinion of his reported sexual habits if the reports are accurate what iyo does this say about the quality of his christianity or are the allegations just part of the big cover up thank you steve it is refreshing to have someone accuse me of being a christian i only hope enough evidence can be garnered to get a conviction i am not certain what you mean by the fundy part as the term fundamentalist has a wide variety of uses if you refer to i use it to refer to those christians who take a more conservative literalist approach to the bible as distinct from liberals those who actually believe jesus is the messiah and son of god and wish to follow in his way then i plead guilty but what does it i would use the word christian unqualified to describe someone to whom the above definition applied btw it applies to me deletia joe gaut indicates his interest in the bd disaster is from a civil liberties issue not an attempt to justify koresh s beliefs and or practices i agree with joe about this if some group wants to believe in whatever god or invisible pink unicorns and go off and live together and have group sex or no sex or sex only for the leaders but not with children then as much as i might believe them to be misguided i think they should have the legal right and i hope the investigation will start by determining whether the feds had any legitimate reason for going after koresh in the first place before moving on to consider the wisdom of various tactics used joe goes on to dispute the child abuse allegations i ll provisionally accept this unless someone has evidence to support the allegations actually i wasn t thinking about the alleged child abuse but about the reports that he had sex with and fathered children by several women in the cult i agree this is not a legal matter consenting adults and all that but stephen tice seems to be defending koresh s beliefs and practices from specifically christian perspective not a civil liberties perspective i think my question is not really aimed at joe and possibly not at ray cote either who seems to also be taking the political angle but at stephen tice steve watson a k a watson sce carleton ca carleton university ontario this opinion my opinion assert this opinion carletonu opinion somebody touched me making everything new burned through my life like a bolt from the blue somebody touched me i know it was you bruce cockburn
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes in article markp elvis wri com markp elvis wri com mark pundurs writes omigod it s an operationalist sorry jim but the idea that a theory explaining a myriad of distinctly different observations is merely a model is more than sensible people can accept your phobia about objective reality notwithstanding first of all i have no phobia of objective reality i m simply saying that the scientific model of the atom is probably not what is really out there i m not saying that there s no object that sources these properties we measure from atomic theory you hadn t made that clear i m glad to have it clarified so you re a physical objectivist after all right take light as another example there are two theories particle and wave each one fails to predict the behavior of light as some point so which is it particle or wave you tell me you re the sensible one wavicle next question mark pundurs any resemblance between my opinions and those of wolfram research inc is purely coincidental
talk.religion.misc	re rawlins debunks creationism in article r fuj bdi lll winken llnl gov dk imager dave knapp writes in article c wo c ebv sunfish usd edu rfox charlie usd edu writes simply put evolution creation when each is looked at properly theory fact vs assertion fiction is a specific example of exactly what separates reason and science from nonsense although i agree that creation is nonsense i submit that you are making the same mistake that creationists commonly do in this and previous posts i think you have been engaging in the fallacy of false dichotomy you have consistently characterized science religion as rationalism nonsense when in fact the latter do not form a complete set of options neither do the former for that matter i wish that the semi explicit linking of evolution to so called rational atheism could be avoided it just gives the creationists fuel for their often repeated incantation that evolution leads to atheism dave no dave and as an anthropologist i take great umbrage with this misrepresentation i sense that it is you that has made the jump from creation science to religion see above i have characterized science creation science as rationalism nonsense and that it is when people promote their religious beliefs as science they become nonsense kept where they belong they are meaningful and useful as virtually any anthropologists will tell you and as i have said several times in this group and it works the other way too and i have repeatedly said so never have i said or meant anything different here or elsewhere and i don t think my communication skills betray me nor do i presume to offend people s spiritual sensibilities as i would hope others would not disparage mine rich fox anthro usouthdakota
talk.religion.misc	re a kind and loving god in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee writes btw david koresh was not jesus christ as he claimed how can you tell for sure three days haven t passed yet steve bittrolff the previous is my opinion and is shared by any reasonably intelligent person
talk.religion.misc	rawlins has been listening to the devil god itself appeared to me and spoke to me saying rawlins has been listening to a deamon and has been taken in by its satanic words now how we tell which divine inspiration comes from the one true god and which comes from a satanic trickster
talk.religion.misc	re burden of proof in article c t sf oz mentor cc purdue edu frittsbc sage cc purdue edu brian fritts writes i saw one theist on this net talking about the absurdity of one saying he doesn t believe in god and how can we be sure the problem with this and other arguments assumes that the burden of proof lies with the atheist wrong in philosophy the one who is making a positive argument must give reasons for his believing so not the negative if i were to make the statement elves exist then it would be up to me to prove my positive assertion not the person saying that elves don t exist if the negative in this case had to prove elves don t exist he would have to omniscient and know every inch of the universe the same applies with god give me your reasons and you the theist make the case i think you have are addressing the wrong issue the situation is more like we both see some elves this is established as fact since we can both touch them etc then one of us says the elves have always been with us the other says no no there was a time before elves were here which is the positive argument lionel tun lionel cs city ac uk computer vision group city university london ec v hb ext
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes in article c y b blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes in article o rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes there s no objective physics einstein and bohr have told us that speaking as one who knows relativity and quantum mechanics i say bullshit speaking as someone who also knows relativity and quantum mechanics i say go ahead punk make my day my degree can beat up your degree simple take out some physics books and start looking for statements which say that there is no objective physics i doubt you will find any you might find statements that there is no objective length or no objective location but no objective physics consider for instance that speed of light in vacuum is invariant this sounds an awful lot like an objective speed of light in vacuum or you can try not confuse a construct with the constructor if you take a look at quantum mechanics many objective observations can be made as well however physics is not objective bohr said the randomness of atomic motion is inherent in the motion itself einstein said that nature is deterministic it is our method of observation that inserts the randomness they were talking about the exact same results but neither of them claimed to have experimental evidence that proved them right in a similar vein there is as yet no experimental evidence for supersymmetric particles so some physicists believe in them and some don t but all agree that either there is an objectively true answer to the question depends on how you look at it i guess mark pundurs any resemblance between my opinions and those of wolfram research inc is purely coincidental
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in hfk iji zola esd sgi com cj eno esd sgi com c j silverio writes markp elvis wri com mark pundurs writes in v rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mantis co uk mathew writes there s no objective reality lsd should be sufficient to prove that speaking as one who has taken lsd i say bullshit oh lawdy if that experience didn t teach you that your perceptions are always going to get between you reality it sure did i don t know what will have you read anything about how your brain works about various sensory illusions you can be tricked by i have and all the above teach me that accurately perceiving reality is a tricky business not that there s no reality c j silverio cj sgi com ceej well sf ca us last friday april i was forced to interrupt my work in the laboratory in the middle of the afternoon and proceed home being affected by a remarkable restlessness combined with a slight dizziness albert hofmann mark pundurs any resemblance between my opinions and those of wolfram research inc is purely coincidental
talk.religion.misc	re what right joakim ruud joakimr ifi uio no writes recently i ve asked myself a rather interesting question what right does god have on our lives always assuming there is a god of course in his infinite wisdom he made it perfectly clear that if we don t live according to his rules we will burn in hell well with what right can god make that desicion let s say for the sake of argument that god creates every one of us directly or indirectly it doesn t matter what then happens is that he first creates us and then turns us lose well i didn t ask to be created let s make an analogue if a scientist creates a unique living creature which has happened it was even patented does he then have the right to expect it to behave in a certain matter or die dear joakim let me begin by saying that these are excellent questions but that by asking you will find as many different explanations as there are respondents as a latter day saint i believe that all of us you me etc lived once as spirit children of god the father hebrews in the pre mortal existance in order to continue our eternal progression an earthly probationary time was required to live by faith not by sight to choose good over evil and to prepare ourselves in all things to become worthy of a higher order of existance we believe that all of god s spirit offspring were once assembled to discuss the specifics of this earthly sojourn one third chose for lucifer s plan most followed the firstborn the pre mortal jesus christ lucifer s aspirations i will exalt my throne above the stars of god isaiah etc resulted into the rebellion of his followers against the firstborn and those who followed him resulting in the casting out of lucifer who became satan the father of lies and one third of the hosts of heaven and his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven and did cast them to the earth revelation as demons evil spirits to get back on our choice to be born on this earth and to be subject to god and his plan for good or bad based upon our obedience and choices we made that choice individually god speaking to job where wast thou when i laid the foundations of the earth when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of god shouted for joy job we lost the knowledge of our pre mortal existance the veil of forgetful ness somewhere in psalms in order to live by faith not by sight you may not accept this scenario neither do quite a few who rely on the bible alone which offers only fragmentary insights into this particular aspect of our existence as individuals as sons and daughters of god who is god to impose its rules on us who can tell if god is really so righteous as god likes us to believe are all christians a flock of sheep unable to do otherwise that follow the rest hmmmmmmmmmmmm all christians by definition are a flock of sheep following the shepherd as they understand him but in any event not all christians believe in the same theology such as the one latter day saints believe in they will cry heresy and other accusations of perverting the doctrines of the bible while they themselves believe in a myriad of interpretations as found in their catechisms and various do it yourself bible study manuals as for me i have a personal conviction that the pre existance scenario as explained above is most in harmony with biblical doctrine some dead sea scroll books the pseudographion other jewish sources and last but not least modern day revelation on the subject i just want to point out that this is not sarcasm i mean it how should one deal with a man who is convinced that he is acting according to god s will and who there jokke fore believes that he is doing you a favour by stabbing you in the back voltaire casper c knies isscck byuvm bitnet brigham young university isscck vm byu edu ucs computer facilities
talk.religion.misc	re rfd misc taoism in article apr radian uucp markbr radian natinst com mark writes in article apr coe montana edu uphrrmk gemini oscs montana edu jack coyote writes sunlight shining off of the ocean the universe mirrored in a puddle aleph null bottles of beer on the wall aleph null bottles of beer take one down pass it around aleph null bottles of beer on the wall isn t it amazing how there always seems to be another bottle of bheer there aleph one bottles of beer on the wall aleph one null bottles of beer you too are a puddle as above so below mark wow look at alllthe pretty puddles jimmy crack koan and i don t care jimmy crack koan and i don t care jimmy crack koan and i don t care zen master s gone away la morte who wants to take one down and pass it around the beer not the koans
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died jasons atlastele com jason smith writes for several years all i knew is i really liked dropping cid lsd frankly speaking i didn t really care it was fun anyway it didn t matter that every child my wife and i want to have are at a tremendously greater risk of serious birth defects does it matter that the study yes singular that showed lsd causing birth defects also holds true for aspirin does it matter that this study is flat out wrong and lsd does not give you a greater risk of having children with birth defects merlyn leroy
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died brian kendig first states i am my own master i ask are you truly the master of yourself brian kendig states not yet make up your mind but my life is the ground i use to practice on the fun is in the getting there we don t start out perfect and we do not end perfect either we are never perfect can you name one person young or old past or present that you deem perfect good luck i know my shortcomings and i know my strengths and i live my life according to the decisions i make and i am content to abide with the consequences of my decisions as easily as i ll accept the praise for them there have been times in my life when i ve made mistakes yes i try to never make the same mistake twice then you lie to yourself you do not know your shortcomings i have clearly shown one of your shortcomings if not two that is ignorance of the bible and the arrogance you demonstrate butchering it without even knowing its contents i regard christ as a myth because you have been too prideful to examine the record of him for yourself and to demonstate your lack of support for your conclusion i bet you do not even know what the word christ means or which prophet used christ to describe the son of man i feel that there are far too many people offering far too many interpretations of what he supposedly said and did the only person who can really judge me is me yes i agree with that so we must learn first read the bible come up with our own interpretation evaluate what is being said and by whom check the history books as well compare someone else s interpretation with your own then make a judgment but i tell you the truth of what is being said in the bible needs interpretation as much as a coffee cup needs interpretation and remember the bible isn t a guru s esoteric guide to metaphysics it doesn t take a theologian to understand what is being said the bible is a bunch of testimonies from people like you and i addressed to people like you and i these guys wrote down what they saw and heard is it their open diary and they want to tell you something and because they want you to know something they make it very clear what they want you to know they didn t encouch their ideas in esoteric rhetoric but in simple straight forward language i choose the roads i travel and i decide whether or not i want to reach the end of any given road or turn back and as long as i don t always turn back there s no shame in it when i need help i seek out my friends you have chosen the road that avoids the bible you have chosen the road that avoids a confrontation with the living god because that road doesn t look appealing to you you rather build your own road one that goes far away from that confrontation but be assured of this you will have to confront him one day willingly or unwillingly and you don t have a clue about what i m saying either open your eyes and see open your ears and listen i m not just spouting off empty words this is my life this is what gives me meaning i see what you mean i hear what your saying i am not degrading your life but i have heard the same irrational excuses for years there is nothing new in what you are saying and by your own words you are spouting off contradictions if contradictions give you meaning then your life must be sad i say my mother loves me how do i know you ask i can point to definite things she s done for me and i can even just bring her to you so you can ask her face to face you say your deity loves you how do you know i ask bingo for god so loved the world he gave his only begotton to son so that whososever belives in him will have ever lasting life i look what god did he has given his son even to his death so that i can have hope in his resurrection and know that life isn t for nothing but has glorious purpose you can t even convince me that it exists because you turn your eyes away from testimony and history you choose to lie to yourself that he doesn t exist for you ignore what has been said for thousands of years you sound exactly almost verbatim like the lazarus of jesus s story starting in luke and the conclusion of that story is a bleak one lazarus wound up in hell the story ends like this for if lazarus doesn t even listen to moses and the prophets he won t even believe if a man rose from the dead if any god dangles heaven before me like a carrot promising untold pleasures to me if i ll only suspend my disbelief and ignore my rationality for just this once then i would choose hell i can not lie to myself to placate another being no matter how powerful it is arrogance at its best the fact is you are not rational several specific cases have already been cited and again with this new statement you show more irrationality with regards to heaven jesus does tell you something of what to expect in heaven jesus expects you to use your brain to believe in him jesus does not expect you to placate either jesus wants you to willingly come to him but not as his grovelling slave but rather as his brother who will share in his glorious riches why do you not pick up the bible and read it for yourself you maintain you have an open mind see whether you are lying to yourself for yourself why would you want to live a good life to you you die and that s it don t contradict yourself you have no reason to live a good life it doesn t do you any good in the end your life doesn t do anybody else any good either because everyone dies anyway so you have no reason to lead a good life leading a good life is meaningless why do you do such a meaningless thing that paragraph demonstrates that you haven t listened to a single word i ve said i do understand what you said but that s is not what i feel went amiss here you missed the point living a good life has no eternal consequences once they close the amusement park of life to you that is the end to you it is over to you therefore your time spent in the amusement park is meaningless it has no eternal consequences to you nor to anyone left on earth but then you contradict yourself from a previous post you said doing evil things is bad to you it shouldn t matter if you do evil things or good things it is all meaningless in the end anyway so go rob a bank go tell someone you dislike that he is a dirty rotten slime bag what s restraining you life after all has no eternal consequences and accountability is irrelevant in the same way i think life is fun and i don t intend to leave the amusement park of life until they close down for the night d at which time you are truly not the master of yourself i m sorry i don t feel that sacrificing jesus was something any god i d worship would do unless the sacrifice was only temporary in which case it s not really all that important has the resurrection sunk in jesus is alive jesus is not dead so you and your holy book say by the same token therefore santa claus delivers toys every xmas don t you see i have no reason to believe that what you say is true please give me some reason that i can t similarly apply to santa claus you have every reason to believe that what jesus says and the witnesses of jesus say are true but you choose to be unreasonable and ignore the reasons by definition ignorance santa claus is said to live at the north pole and have a squad of elves and flying reindeer ever see a flying reindeer has anyone in human history seen a flying reindeer has anyone seen a reindeer whose nose blinks red on the other hand are people born in bethlehem was nebuchandezzar really a king was daniel really one of his court officials were david and solomon really kings of israel and judah was their really a king called jehoachin did sennecherib really attack jerusalem years before christ did sennacherib really lose his battle and badly was there really a caiaphas who interrogated jesus yes yes yes history verifies it it is nonfiction do you have a problem discerning truth from fiction perhaps you can t evaluate the context of grimm s fairy tales apart from that of the scientific american i suppose you treat both with equal truthfulness or equal falsity is this what you are telling me or is it that just do want to read the scientific american and find out that it s not a fairy tale are you thereby inferring that your deity is nothing more than a collection of verses in a book and cannot be supported without invoking them get real have you ever been to zaire do you have to go there to be assured that there really is such a place given your irrationality i take it you have never used a map in your life why do you believe what you believe given the overwhelming evidence as well as my personal experience with the living god i d be an irrational unreasoning ignorant fool if i didn t follow jesus
talk.religion.misc	the law of retribution the law of retribution violent crime racism bigotry domestic abuse rape police brutality and oppression human rights violations etc etc continue to get worse and worse in spite of more and more man made laws on all levels from local ordinances to international law the man made laws are not working what we have here is failure to communicate perpetrators remain ignorant of the law a universal cosmic and spiritual law the law of retribution or karma be not deceived god is not mocked for whatsoever a man soweth that shall he also reap galatians kjv he that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword here is the patience and faith of the saints revelation kjv what goes around comes around this law of the universe is just as real as the physical law that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction it is the enforcement the teeth behind the golden rule do unto others as you would have others do unto you all perpetrators in the present will become victims in the future most likely in a future incarnation most victims in the present were perpetrators in the past usually during a previous life what is needed is a massive worldwide program of education to teach all present and potential perpetrators in a convincing manner with sufficient supporting evidence that what they do to others will be done to them in this life or the next anyone who doubts the fact of reincarnation and the related law of retribution should read books such as here and hereafter by ruth montgomery which describes several kinds of evidence supporting reincarnation including hypnotic regression to past lives about accurate the subconscious mind can sometimes make things up especially with a bad hypnotist spontaneous recall especially by young children some of whom can identify their most recent previous relatives homes possessions etc dream recall of past life experiences deja vu familiarity with a far off land while traveling there for the first time on vacation the psychic readings of the late edgar cayce and even supporting statements from the christian bible including matthew john the baptist was the reincarnation of elias and john how can a person possibly sin before he is born unless he lived before strong interests innate talents strong phobias etc typically originate from a person s past lives for example a strong fear of swimming in or traveling over water usually results from having drowned at the end of a previous life and sometimes a person will take an immediate dislike to another person being met for the first time in their present life because of a bad encounter with him during a previous incarnation people would behave much better toward each other if they knew that their actions in the present will surely be reaped by them in the future or in a future incarnation for more information answers to your questions etc please consult my cited sources books like here and hereafter by ruth montgomery un altered reproduction and dissemination of this important information is encouraged robert e mcelwaine nd initiate in eckankar but not an agent thereof
talk.religion.misc	re what part of no don t you understand eeb midway uchicago edu writes steve novak writes because of course that possibility existed meaning any student who really gave a shit could have a moment of silence on his her own which makes more sense than forcing those who don t want to participate to have to take part what other reason is there for an organized moment of silence a moment of silence doesn t mean much unless everyone participates otherwise it s not silent now is it the whole point is maybe everyone doesn t want to participate blindly opposing everything with a flavor of religion in it is utterly idiotic blindly opposing everything with a flavor of religion in it that is supported by taxpayer money is the only way to keep christianity from becoming the official u s religion not noticing that danger is utterly idiotic steve novak ban the bomb ban the pope steven advtech uswest com
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened in article c w ca m s noose ecn purdue edu tbrent ecn purdue edu timothy j brent writes if you check the news today ap the authorities also found a state of the art automatic machine gun that investigators did not know was in the cult s arsenal carl stern justice department yeah in a fire that reportedly burned hotter than degrees hot enough to make the bodies still unidentifiable the authorities found a gun that was recognizably fully automatic and state of the art isn t that conveeeenient matthew t russotto russotto eng umd edu russotto wam umd edu some news readers expect disclaimer here just say no to police searches and seizures make them use force not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice
talk.religion.misc	re albert sabin in article r ruinnmle ctron news ctron com king ctron com john e king writes rfox charlie usd edu writes discussion on josephus inserts thanks am i correct then in assuming that that josephus did in fact write about jesus but christian copists embellished it jack that is indeed the present consensus contrary to what dr fox has been saying however present consensus is not that the longer passage in josephus about jesus was inserted but only that it was modified there is no question that it was at least modified based on what origen says that josephus did not recognize jesus as the messiah but i don t think the argument that it appears out of context is a very good one i haven t looked at the context for a while perhaps somebody could give some of the sentences which precede and follow the jesus passage jim lippard lippard ccit arizona edu dept of philosophy lippard arizvms bitnet university of arizona tucson az
talk.religion.misc	apr god s promise in matthew i baptize you with water for repentance but after me will come one who is more powerful than i whose sandals i am not fit to carry he will baptize you with the holy spirit and with fire matthew niv
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews in rdlsf vi agate berkeley edu isaackuo skippy berkeley edu isaac kuo writes i merely point out that it is a valid strategy which is used every day furthermore we don t know of any substitute strategy capable of apprehending potentially dangerous and armed suspects do you suggest that the police always knock with guns holstered and never arrest any suspects until they have been allowed to inspect the officers s badges just what should the police do when apprehending potentially dangerous and armed suspects how far can they reasonably go to identiy themselves what do you suggest they can do which can t be faked by the competition so instead you are asking individual citizens to place themselves at risk by assuming that everyone who claims to be a cop actually is a cop around here the police have actually made public service announcements saying that if you are a lady driving by yourself at night and you see blue lights flashing behind you do not pull over until you reach a well lit preferably occupied place gas station etc even if you ve got deadly enemies who may pretend to be cops that s not an excuse to murder police it wouldn t be murder it would be self defense mob rule isn t any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain t charity if you are using someone else s money wilson s theory of relativity if you go back far enough we re all related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened in article bskendigc qyj gew netcom com bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes b zaw utarlg uta edu stephen tice writes one way or another so much for patience too bad you couldn t just wait was the prospect of god s message just too much to take so you believe that david koresh really is jesus christ well lets see a long haired nut case with sexual hangups surrounded by a lot of gulible losers without a brain between them with a miserable and meaningless death to boot sounds like he fits the bill to me joseph remember david koresh fried for you askew joseph askew gauche and proud in the autumn stillness see the pleiades jaskew spam maths adelaide edu remote in thorny deserts fell the grief disclaimer sue see if i care north of our tents the sky must end somwhere actually i rather like brenda beyond the pale the river murmurs on
talk.religion.misc	re burden of proof in article apr ousrvr oulu fi ktikkane phoenix oulu fi kari tikkanen writes in math exam i have burden of proof when it says prove that no elements in set a n divided by leaves as a remainder n prime n integer does exist well mathematics is formal science real world may be different thing but if entertainment company sell computer programs saying they are virus safe doesn t they have burden of proof that viruses don t exist in their floppies i don t think so the assumption is there if it turns out that their software has a virus then it is up to you to prove that fact to a court to get any damages you are theoretically suppossed to be able to get damages for that but you have to give some evidence that the virus came from that software but since the computer company is the defendent they are uninvolved until proven guilty ktikkane phoenix oulu fi kari tikkanen b begin sf oulu i f x dx s s eq i finland vega a end please not pascal nooooo mccullou whipple cs wisc edu never program and drink beer at the same m time it doesn t work
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened in article visser convex convex com visser convex com lance visser writes in bskendigc qyj gew netcom com bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes b zaw utarlg uta edu stephen tice writes one way or another so much for patience too bad you couldn t just wait was the prospect of god s message just too much to take so you believe that david koresh really is jesus christ they cut off the water there were no fire trucks present and the fbi atf go blasting holes into the builing and firing gas munitions the building burns almost everyone dies it probably doesn t bother you much but it bothers many other people most of whom dont believe particularly in koresh or his message four atf agents and branch davidians are now dead because of crazy tactics on the part of the atf and fbi attorney general vampira tells us that todays events were suppose to save those in the compound blowing holes in a building and gassing those inside was supposed to save them personally i think it was mrs o leary s cow that knocked over that lantern phaedrus the cyberpyrate
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died in article apr atlastele com jasons atlastele com jason smith wrote for several years all i knew is i really liked dropping cid lsd frankly speaking i didn t really care it was fun anyway it didn t matter that every child my wife and i want to have are at a tremendously greater risk of serious birth defects for several years all i knew is i really liked having sex with as many women as i could convice frankly speaking i didn t care i didn t care that i was putting each one of them at risk as well as their future partners it seems you lived a fairly wild life my background is far more traditional mostly working working working maybe there s a clear indication that the way you lived your life produced a certain amount of anxiety that needed to be released religion was one possible medicine while my more stable environment didn t and still does not produce the situation where i feel such guilt this is just one possible explanation why you feel this burden while i haven t felt it so far regards kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	apr god s promise in matthew blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness for they will be filled matthew niv
talk.religion.misc	re biblical backing of koresh s tape cites enclosed in article apr utarlg uta edu b zaw utarlg uta edu stephen writes in article r j ie sbctri sbc com netd susie sbc com writes name stephen writes for those who think david koresh didn t have a solid structure or sound biblical backing for his hour long tape broadcast i don t think anyone really cares about the solid structure of his sermon other than it tells quite a lot about the man himself i m curious are you referring to koresh as the man why the upper case m it s the deaths he s responsible for that concern most people are you the spokesman for most people i never claimed to be a spokesman for most people it is an assumption on my part that people with normal values and morality would be more concerned with human life than sermon structure you missed the point which is that the prophets the psalms and revelation all together provide a very rich view of a very special event a wedding are burning children part of this very special event my comment stems from the realization that we who love the lord are human and imperfect whatever we preach no matter how eloquent or how corrupted is of little difference those who know the master s voice will recognize him a gem stone amidst rock such is also the lesson of the stumblingblock for those who have an ear to hear what about those who do not know the master s voice does the master not care about them eloquent but corrupt preaching may be of little difference to you but i suspect it made a big difference to all of those who died in the compound tim henrion southwestern bell technology resources thenrion sbctri sbc com
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article r na e fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article apr st andrews ac uk nrp st andrews ac uk norman r paterson writes in article r m mo fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes ok so you don t claim to have an absolute moral system do you claim to have an objective one i ll assume your answer is yes apologies if not i ve just spent two solid months arguing that no such thing as an objective moral system exists jon apologies i ve not been paying attention norman
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews in article apr gn ecn purdue edu mechalas gn ecn purdue edu john p mechalas wrote either way i have evidence to support the theory that the bd s burned themselves you made a serious implication that the fbi was responsible for the fire and the destruction of the people all you have done is put doubt on who started the fire without providing any evidence to back up your claim that the fbi was responsible last night cnn reported that fbi has infrared pictures showing that the fires started in three places at the same time that would indicate something not resembling an accident cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee wrote in article blue cis pitt edu rjl pitt edu richard j loether writes yes of course as in matthew do not suppose that i have come to bring peace to the earth it is not peace i have come to bring but a sword remember the armor of god the sword that christians wield is the word of god the bible sorry malcolm but i rather believe jesus than you cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re the laws of god was re a kind and loving god in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee wrote eternal damnation is the consequence of the choice one makes in rejecting god if you choose to jump off a cliff you can hardly blame god for you going splat at the bottom he knows that if you choose to jump that you will die but he will not prevent you from making that choice in fact he sent his son to stand on the edge of the cliff and tell everyone of what lies below to prove that point jesus took that plunge himself but he being god was able to rise up again i have seen the example of christ and have chosen not to jump and i m trying to tell you not to jump or else you ll go splat you don t have to listen to me and i won t stop you if you decide to jump i only ask that you check it out before taking the plunge you owe it to yourself i don t like seeing anyone go splat i m for the moment interested in this notion of the leap of faith established by kierkegaard it clearly points out a possible solution to transcendental values what i don t understand is that it also clearly shows the existentialism system where any leap to any transcendental direction is equal in other words i might not jump off the cliff mentioned above but at the same time i will decide to what direction i will go actually i will do it just now cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re cybele and transgender sexualism in article raven aims unc edu fhunt med unc edu freb hunt writes is there some relation between the name cybele and the phenemenon of the sibyl your paragraph above seems to indicate there might be the oed gives the etymology of sibyl as coming from the ancient greek sigma iota beta upsilon lambda lambda alpha s i b ih l l a which is claimed to come from the doric sigma iota omicron beta upsilon lambda lambda alpha s i o b ih l l a which if i read it properly in turn came from the attican athenian theta epsilon omicron beta omicron upsilon lambda eta th eh o b o ih l ae i don t know much about attis but it wouldn t surprise me to learn that this god was tied to the athenian capital alpha tau tau iota kappa upsilon sigma a t t i k u s the oed does not list any etymology for cybele since that is a propper noun but i suggest that the greek spelling of that word would be much closer to the anticedants of sibyl than the two words are now perhaps cybele is a french or latin spelling
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died brian ceccarelli presents us with the fallacy of false dichotomy in stating that we must accept every thing in the books attributed to peter or we must discount every other book of antiquity peter died two millenia ago the original letters he wrote have long since decayed into dust if he were alive today and i could do you question the existence of alexander the great tilgrath pilisar iii nero caligula josephus cyrus the great artexerxes their documents have decayed to dust too brian why another excuse mr ceccarelli you seem to be stating that we must accept accept everything written in every historical document somehow i doubt do that yourself that thus since i doubt you accept everything written in every historical document i would ask how you can thereby objectively justify complete faith in the words of the books attributed to peter i shall now give an example of a document from antiquity which i am sure you reject it dates from the time of ramses ii this was first presented here by matthew wiener these inscriptions were carved soon after a battle and were carved with the pharoah s specific approval so we have true originals rather than mere copies this account records the the battle of kadesh circa bc which occurred on the river orontes about miles south of aleppo the egyptians won this battle with the hittites and ramses had his victory inscribed all over the place a few of of these inscriptions have survived in near perfect form it is a record of how the pharoah pretty much single handedly defeated the hittites after being separated from his troops note that the egyptian wavers back and forth between first and third person the following is from miriam lichtheim s ancient egyptian literature volume ii my majesty caused the forces of the foes from hitti to fall on their faces one upon the other as crocodiles fall into the water of the orontes i was after them like a griffin i attacked all the countries i alone for my infantry and my chariotry had deserted me not one of them stood looking back as i live as ra loves me as my father atum favors me everything that my majesty has told i did it in truth in the presence of my infantry and my chariotry note this paragraph records not only ramses divine word but also that there were thousands of witnesses to the event now from the heart of battle then his majesty drove at a gallop and charged the forces of the foe from hitti being alone by himself none other with him his majesty proceeded to look about him and found chariots ringing him on his way out no officer was with me no charioteer no soldier of the army no shield bearer my infantry my chariotry yielded before them not one of them stood firm to fight with them his majesty spoke what is this father amun is it right for a father to ignore his son are my deeds a matter for you to ignore do i not walk and stand at your word i have not neglected an order you gave too great is he the great lord of egypt to allow aliens to step on his path what are these asiatics to you o amun the wretches ignorant of god have i not made for you many great monuments i call to you my father amun i am among a host of strangers all countries are arrayed against me i am alone there s none with me the labors of many people are nothing amun is more helpful than they i came here by the command of your mouth o amun i have not transgressed your command now though i prayed in a distant land my voice resounded in southern thebes i found amun came when i called to him he gave me his hand and i rejoiced he called from behind as if near by forward i am with you i your father my hand is with you i prevail over a hundred thousand men i am lord of victory lover of valor i found my heart stout my breast in joy all i did succeeded i was like mont i slaughtered among them at my will not one looked behind him not one turned around whoever fell down did not rise one called out to the other saying no man is he who is among us it is seth great of strength baal in person not deeds of man are these his doings they are of one who is unique who fights a hundred thousand without soldiers and chariots come quick flee before him to seek life and breathe air for he who attempts to get close to him his hands all his limbs grow limp one cannot hold either bow or spears when one sees him come racing along my majesty hunted them like a griffin i slaughtered among them unceasingly so you see brian we have a few original manuscripts recording the miraculous battle between the ramses and the hittites do you reject them as being completely true i suspect you do and if so then do you also in your own words question the existence of alexander the great tilgrath pilisar iii nero caligula josephus cyrus the great artexerxes do you also thereby question all their documents that s the problem with your all or nothing approach many ancient people used to mix a bit of fancy with their facts so for you to say that we must either accept all of peter and the rest of the new testament or accept no records of antiquity at all forces you thereby to accept the verity of documents you probably do not find completely credible as to your other argument that so many people have testified to jesus that he must be true are you going to just pass off all this testimony as fictiousness are you going to call three thousand years worth of testimony from shepherds to irs agents to royal officials to kings to computer programmers fiction with a scoff of your keyboard with near complete ignorance of the testimonies are you going to say that that is all complete hooey would that not be the most audacious display of arrogance do you actually think you know better than king solomon king david or even abraham lincoln i have three points first this is argumentum ad populum ie appeal to popular opinion you cannot vote on truth for instance do the millions of hindu s past and present who testify to the reality of brahma constitute actual evidence for the existence of brahma how would you answer your own question in regards to the testimony of hindus with a scoff of your keyboard with near complete ignorance of the testimonies are you going to say that that is all complete hooey if you do so scoff then how do you objectively justify your own special pleading second it is not at all clear that king solomon or king david testified to jesus you can claim it to be clear but that does not make it true third it is quite arguable that abraham lincoln was not christian and that he had both a public and a private view of christianity in fact there was much discussion about it in his day yes he was publically accused of being a deist oh my i am presently collecting a faq for lincoln as i ve previously done for tyre jefferson and etc later dave butler my earlier views of the unsoundness of the christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and i see no reason for thinking i shall ever change them abraham lincoln to judge j s wakefield after the death of willie lincoln
talk.religion.misc	re what part of no don t you understand in article apr advtech uswest com steven advtech uswest com steve novak writes eeb midway uchicago edu writes steve novak writes because of course that possibility existed meaning any student who really gave a shit could have a moment of silence on his her own which makes more sense than forcing those who don t want to participate to have to take part what other reason is there for an organized moment of silence a moment of silence doesn t mean much unless everyone participates otherwise it s not silent now is it the whole point is maybe everyone doesn t want to participate and maybe they do but without somebody to set the time that doesn t do them any good humph deleted there was my list of non religious reasons one might want a moment of silence for a dead classmate maybe everyone doesn t want to be silent for teachers to give their pompous non religious speeches in assembly i know i didn t so blindly opposing everything with a flavor of religion in it is utterly idiotic blindly opposing everything with a flavor of religion in it that is supported by taxpayer money is the only way to keep christianity from becoming the official u s religion please provide documentation that opposing only things that are actively religious e g actual prayer amen after a moment of silence mandatory classes in religion and not things that have possible but uncertain religious implications e g moments of silence having the bible on the shelves during reading period is not a way to prevent a state religion pro choice anti roe e elizabeth bartley abortions should be safe legal early and rare
talk.religion.misc	larsonian astronomy physics creation the following partial summary of a theory of the universe includes a little known description of the creation of our solar system larsonian astronomy and physics orthodox physicists astronomers and astrophysicists claim to be looking for a unified field theory in which all of the forces of the universe can be explained with a single set of laws or equations but they have been systematically ignoring or suppressing an excellent one for years the late physicist dewey b larson s comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe which he calls the reciprocal system is built on two fundamental postulates about the physical and mathematical natures of space and time the physical universe is composed entirely of one component motion existing in three dimensions in discrete units and in two reciprocal forms space and time the physical universe conforms to the relations of ordinary commutative mathematics its magnitudes are absolute and its geometry is euclidean from these two postulates larson developed a complete theoretical universe using various combinations of translational vibrational rotational and vibrational rotational motions the concepts of in ward and out ward scalar motions and speeds in relation to the speed of light which larson called unit velocity and the natural datum at each step in the development larson was able to match objects in his theoretical universe with objects in the real physical universe photons sub atomic particles incomplete atoms charges atoms molecules globular star clusters galaxies binary star systems solar systems white dwarf stars pulsars quasars etc even objects not yet discovered then such as exploding galaxies and gamma ray bursts and applying his theory to his new model of the atom larson was able to precisely and accurately calculate inter atomic distances in crystals and molecules compressibility and thermal expansion of solids and other properties of matter all of this is described in good detail with out fancy complex mathematics in his books books of dewey b larson the following is a complete list of the late physicist dewey b larson s books about his comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe some of the early books are out of print now but still available through inter library loan the structure of the physical universe the case against the nuclear atom beyond newton new light on space and time quasars and pulsars nothing but motion a substitute for the billion super collider the last four chapters explain chemical bonding the neglected facts of science the universe of motion final solutions to most all astrophysical mysteries basic properties of matter all but the last of these books were published by north pacific publishers p o box portland or and should be available via inter library loan if your local university or public library doesn t have each of them several of them including the last one are available from the international society of unified science isus e atkin ave salt lake city utah this is the organization that was started to promote larson s theory they have other related publications including the quarterly journal reciprocity physicist dewey b larson s background physicist dewey b larson was a retired engineer chemical or electrical he was about years old when he died in may he had a bachelor of science degree in engineering science from oregon state university he developed his comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe while trying to develop a way to compute chemical properties based only on the elements used larson s lack of a fancy ph d degree might be one reason that orthodox physicists are ignoring him but it is not a valid reason sometimes it takes a relative outsider to clearly see the forest through the trees at the same time it is clear from his books that he also knew orthodox physics and astronomy as well as any physicist or astronomer well enough to point out all their contradictions ad hoc assumptions principles of impotence in consistencies etc larson did not have the funds etc to experimentally test his theory and it was not necessary for him to do so he simply compared the various parts of his theory with other researchers experimental and observational data and in many cases his explanation fit better a self consistent theory is much more than the orthodox physicists and astronomers have they claim to be looking for a unified field theory that works but have been ignoring one for over years now modern physics does not explain the physical universe so well some parts of some of larson s books are full of quotations of leading orthodox physicists and astronomers who agree and remember that epicycles crystal spheres geocentricity flat earth theory etc also once seemed to explain it well but were later proved conceptually wrong prof frank h meyer professor emeritus of uw superior was is a strong proponent of larson s theory and was or still is president of larson s organization the international society of unified science and editor of their quarterly journal reciprocity he moved to minneapolis after retiring super collider boondoggle i am against contruction of the superconducting super collider in texas or anywhere else it would be a gross waste of money and contribute almost nothing of scientific value most physicists don t realize it but according to the comprehensive general unified theory of the late physicist dewey b larson as described in his books the strange goofy particles mesons hyperons alleged quarks etc which they are finding in existing colliders fermi lab cern etc are really just atoms of anti matter which are created by the high energy colliding beams and which quickly disintegrate like cosmic rays because they are incompatible with their environment a larger and more expensive collider will only create a few more elements of anti matter that the physicists have not seen there before and the physicists will be even more confused than they are now are a few more types of anti matter atoms worth the billion cost don t we have much more important uses for this wasted money another thing to consider is that the primary proposed location in texas has a serious and growing problem with some kind of fire ants eating the insulation off underground cables how much poisoning of the ground and ground water with insecticides will be required to keep the ants out of the supercollider naming the super collider after ronald reagon as proposed is totally absurd if it is built it should be named after a leading particle physicist larsonian anti matter in larson s comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe anti matter is not a simple case of opposite charges of the same types of particles it has more to do with the rates of vibrations and rotations of the photons of which they are made in relation to the vibrational and rotational equivalents of the speed of light which larson calls unit velocity and the natural datum in larson s theory a positron is actually a particle of matter not anti matter when a positron and electron meet the rotational vibrations charges and rotations of their respective photons of which they are made neutralize each other in larson s theory the anti matter half of the physical universe has three dimensions of time and only one dimension of space and exists in a reciprocal relationship to our material half larsonian relativity the perihelion point in the orbit of the planet mercury has been observed and precisely measured to advance at the rate of seconds of arc per century seconds of this advance are attributed via calculations to gravitational perturbations from the other planets venus earth jupiter etc the remaining seconds of arc are being used to help prove einstein s general theory of relativity but the late physicist dewey b larson achieved results closer to the seconds than general relativity can by instead using special relativity in one or more of his books he applied the lorentz transformation on the high orbital speed of mercury larson totally rejected general relativity as another mathematical fantasy he also rejected most of special relativity including the parts about mass increases near the speed of light and the use of the lorentz transform on doppler shifts those quasars with red shifts greater than really are moving faster than the speed of light although most of that motion is away from us in time in larson s comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe there are three dimensions of time instead of only one but two of those dimensions can not be measured from our material half of the physical universe the one dimension that we can measure is the clock time at low relative speeds the values of the other two dimensions are negligible but at high speeds they become significant and the lorentz transformation must be used as a fudge factor larson often used the term coordinate time when writing about this in regard to mass increases it has been proven in atomic accelerators that acceleration drops toward zero near the speed of light but the formula for acceleration is acceleration force mass a f m orthodox physicists are ignoring the third factor force in larson s theory mass stays constant and force drops toward zero force is actually a motion or combinations of motions or relations between motions including inward and outward scalar motions the expansion of the universe for example is an outward scalar motion inherent in the universe and not a result of the so called big bang which is yet another mathematical fantasy the universe of motion i wish to recommend to everyone the book the universe of motion by dewey b larson north pacific publishers p o box portland oregon pages indexed hardcover it contains the astrophysical portions of a general unified theory of the physical universe developed by that author an unrecognized genius more than thirty years ago it contains final solutions to most all astrophysical mysteries including the formation of galaxies binary and multiple star systems and solar systems the true origin of the degree background radiation cosmic rays and gamma ray bursts and the true nature of quasars pulsars white dwarfs exploding galaxies etc it contains what astronomers and astrophysicists are all looking for if they are ready to seriously consider it with open minds the following is an example of his theory s success in his first book in the structure of the physical universe larson predicted the existence of exploding galaxies several years before astronomers started finding them they are a necessary consequence of larson s comprehensive theory and when quasars were discovered he had an immediate related explanation for them also gamma ray bursts astro physicists and astronomers are still scratching their heads about the mysterious gamma ray bursts they were originally thought to originate from neutron stars in the disc of our galaxy but the new gamma ray telescope now in earth orbit has been detecting them in all directions uniformly and their source locations in space do not correspond to any known objects except for a few cases of directional coincidence gamma ray bursts are a necessary consequence of the general unified theory of the physical universe developed by the late physicist dewey b larson according to page of his book the universe of motion published in the gamma ray bursts are coming from supernova explosions in the anti matter half of the physical universe which larson calls the cosmic sector because of the relationship between the anti matter and material halves of the physical universe and the way they are connected together the gamma ray bursts can pop into our material half anywhere in space seemingly at random this is why the source locations of the bursts do not correspond with known objects and come from all directions uniformly i wonder how close to us in space a source location would have to be for a gamma ray burst to kill all or most life on earth there would be no way to predict one nor to stop it perhaps some of the mass extinctions of the past which are now being blamed on impacts of comets and asteroids were actually caused by nearby gamma ray bursts larsonian binary star formation about half of all the stars in the galaxy in the vicinity of the sun are binary or double but orthodox astronomers and astrophysicists still have no satisfactory theory about how they form or why there are so many of them but binary star systems are actually a likely consequence of the comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe developed by the late physicist dewey b larson i will try to summarize larsons explanation which is detailed in chapter of his book the universe of motion and in some of his other books first of all according to larson stars do not generate energy by fusion a small fraction comes from slow gravitational collapse the rest results from the complete annihilation of heavy elements heavier than iron each element has a destructive temperature limit the heavier the element is the lower is this limit a star s internal temperature increases as it grows in mass via accretion and absorption of the decay products of cosmic rays gradually reaching the destructive temperature limit of lighter and lighter elements when the internal temperature of the star reaches the destructive temperature limit of iron there is a type i supernova explosion this is because there is so much iron present and that is related to the structure of iron atoms and the atom building process which larson explains in some of his books better than i can when the star explodes the lighter material on the outer portion of the star is blown outward in space at less than the speed of light the heavier material in the center portion of the star was already bouncing around at close to the speed of light because of the high temperature the explosion pushes that material over the speed of light and it expands outward in time which is equivalent to inward in space and it often actually disappears for a while over long periods of time both masses start to fall back gravitationally the material that had been blown outward in space now starts to form a red giant star the material that had been blown outward in time starts to form a white dwarf star both stars then start moving back toward the main sequence from opposite directions on the h r diagram the chances of the two masses falling back into the exact same location in space making a single lone star again are near zero they will instead form a binary system orbiting each other according to larson a white dwarf star has an inverse density gradient is densest at its surface because the material at its center is most widely dispersed blown outward in time this eliminates the need to resort to mathematical fantasies about degenerate matter neutron stars black holes etc larsonian solar system formation if the mass of the heavy material at the center of the exploding star is relatively small then instead of a single white dwarf star there will be several mini white dwarf stars revolving around the red giant star but probably still too far away in three dimensional time to be affected by its heat etc these will become planets in chapter of the universe of motion larson used all this information and other principles of his comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe to derive his own version of bode s law black hole fantasy i heard that physicist stephen w hawking recently completed a theoretical mathematical analysis of two black holes merging together into a single black hole and concluded that the new black hole would have more mass than the sum of the two original black holes such a result should be recognized by everyone as a red flag causing widespread doubt about the whole idea of black holes etc after reading physicist dewey b larson s books about his comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe especially his book the universe of motion it is clear to me that black holes are nothing more than mathematical fantasies the strange object at cygnus x is just an unusually massive white dwarf star not the black hole that orthodox astronomers and physicists so badly want to prove their theory by the way i do not understand why so much publicity is being given to physicist stephen hawking the physicists and astronomers seem to be acting as if hawking s severe physical problem somehow makes him wiser it does not i wish the same attention had been given to physicist dewey b larson while he was still alive widespread publicity and attention should now be given to larson s theory books and organization the international society of unified science electro magnetic propulsion i heard of that concept many years ago in connection with ufo s and unorthodox inventors but i never was able to find out how or why they work or how they are constructed i found a possible clue about why they might work on pages of the book basic properties of matter by the late physicist dewey b larson which describes part of larson s comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe i quote one paragraph as indicated in the preceding chapter the development of the theory of the universe of motion arrives at a totally different concept of the nature of electrical resistance the electrons we find are derived from the environment it was brought out in volume i larson s book nothing but motion that there are physical processes in operation which produce electrons in substantial quantities and that although the motions that constitute these electrons are in many cases absorbed by atomic structures the opportunities for utilizing this type of motion in such structures are limited it follows that there is always a large excess of free electrons in the material sector material half of the universe most of which are uncharged in this uncharged state the electrons cannot move with respect to extension space because they are inherently rotating units of space and the relation of space to space is not motion in open space therefore each uncharged electron remains permanently in the same location with respect to the natural reference system in the manner of a photon in the context of the stationary spatial reference system the uncharged electron like the photon is carried outward at the speed of light by the progression of the natural reference system all material aggregates are thus exposed to a flux of electrons similar to the continual bombardment by photons of radiation meanwhile there are other processes to be discussed later whereby electrons are returned to the environment the electron population of a material aggregate such as the earth therefore stabilizes at an equilibrium level note that in larson s theory uncharged electrons are also massless and are basically photons of light of a particular frequency above the unit frequency spinning around one axis at a particular rate below the unit rate unit velocity is the speed of light and there are vibrational and rotational equivalents to the speed of light according to larson s theory i might have the above and below labels mixed up larson is saying that outer space is filled with mass less un charged electrons flying around at the speed of light if this is true then the electro magnetic propulsion fields of spacecraft might be able to interact with these electrons or other particles in space perhaps giving them a charge and mass and shooting them toward the rear to achieve propulsion in larson s theory an electrical charge is a one dimensional rotational vibration of a particular frequency above the unit frequency superimposed on the rotation of the particle the paragraph quoted above might also give a clue to confused meteorologists about how and why lightning is generated in clouds suppression of larsonian physics the comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe developed by the late physicist dewey b larson has been available for more than years published in in his first book the structure of the physical universe it is totally un scientific for hawking wheeler sagan and the other sacred priests of the religion they call science or physics or astronomy etc as well as the scientific literature and the education systems to totally ignore larson s theory has they have larson s theory has excellent explanations for many things now puzzling orthodox physicists and astronomers such as gamma ray bursts and the nature of quasars larson s theory deserves to be honestly and openly discussed in the physics chemistry and astronomy journals in the u s and elsewhere and at least the basic principles of larson s theory should be included in all related courses at uw ec uw madison cambridge cornell university and elsewhere so that students are not kept in the dark about a worthy alternative to the dogma they are being fed for more information answers to your questions etc please consult my cited sources especially larson s books un altered reproduction and dissemination of this important partial summary is encouraged robert e mcelwaine b s physics and astronomy uw ec
talk.religion.misc	re on line copy of book of mormon in article apr ads com wmoore ads com william moore writes can anyone provide me a ftp site where i can obtain a online version of the book of mormon please email the internet address if possible i have a copy why are you interested lance lance w bledsoe lwb im u cs utexas edu ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free
talk.religion.misc	booze it up thus sayth the lord jeremiah therefore thou shalt say unto them thus saith the lord of hosts the god of israel drink ye and be drunken and spue and fall and rise no more because of the sword which i will send among you and it shall be if they refuse to take the cup at thine hand to drink then shalt thou say unto them thus saith the lord of hosts ye shall certainly drink
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews in article f p ua zb juts ccc amdahl com agr juts ccc amdahl com anthony g rose writes capser before you deceive everone into thinking that the latter day saints have undergone undue persecution through the years for just believing in their religion perhaps you would like to tell us all what happened in the mountain meadow massacres and all the killings that were done under the blood atonement doctrine at the command of brigham young i recently watched a an episode of the old west a tv show on the discovery channel or perhaps the a e network the one hosted by kenny rogers this episode was all about the mormons and how they settled utah etc a large portion of the broadcast was about the mountain meadows massacre the program very specifically pointed out that brigham young knew nothing about the incident until long after it had happened before telegraph and it occured as a result of several men inciting a bunch of paronoid moromn settlers into what amounted to a mob all participants in the incident were prosecuted and eccomunicated from the lds church i suggest you watch a rerun of that episode they play them over and over and see what they non mormons have to say about it lance lance w bledsoe lwb im u cs utexas edu ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article lefty lefty apple com lefty apple com lefty writes these particular tibetans are advocating increased violence against the chinese occupiers are they wrong wrong about what i think they are correct in thinking that a well placed bomb or six would get headlines but i think they are wrong if they think that you can set off bombs and still be a buddhist maybe what we are seeing here is that chinese cultural genocide against the tibetans has worked well enough that some tibetans are now no longer buddhist and are instead willing to behave like the chinese occupiers every action is its own reward clearly the occupation of tibet has been largely ignored on the other hand people who are aware of the occupation are mostly full of admiration for the peaceful way that tibetans have put up with it and what does it cost us to admire them zip are tibetans currently people of peace do they serve themselves well or badly by being so yes they are and whether this serves them well or not depends on whether they want buddhist principles or political independence and without political independence can they preserve their cultural and religious traditions would an increased level of violence make them terrorists the chinese would certainly refer to them as terrorists just as the hitler regime used to refer to european resistance movements as terrorists assuming that the group advocating this course is correct and greater attention is focussed on the occupation of tibet by the chinese are the tibetans better off as people of peace or as terrorists better off in what way as proponents of pacifism or as proponents of political autonomy and better off in what time scale the soviet empire practised cultural genocide against something like a hundred small minorities some of which resisted violently and some of which did not but in the end it was the soviet empire that collapsed and at least some of the minorities survived now some of the minorities are fighting one another is that because they have to or because violent resistance to an oppressive empire legitimized violence jon
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli writes a baby s innocence has nothing to do with whether the baby is a sinner innocence and the sin nature are two different attributes the baby is innocent yet the baby is a sinner you have two arms and two legs why because your parents did why because their parents did etc did you do anything to get them the thing is i know what arms and legs are it s therefore generally easy to tell whether or not someone has arms and legs this sinful nature since it does not require that the baby actually perform any sins seems to be totally invisible as far as i know maybe half the babies have a sinful nature and half don t it d look exactly the same since there is no way to tell the difference we are born sinners we are born sinners because our parents were born with it we got it from them we did nothing to earn the title sinner we get it because our parents had it their parents had it their grandparents had it etc infinitum so what s so bad about a sinful nature then i could understand it being bad if it always results in people committing sins but babies can have it never commit sins die and they still have it so the bad part about can t merely be that it results in people committing sins so what is bad about it on the first day after christmas my truelove served to me leftover turkey on the second day after christmas my truelove served to me turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey days deleted flaming turkey wings pizza hut commercial and m tlu a gic bait ken arromdee arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu
talk.religion.misc	religion and marriage i wasn t sure if this was the right newsgroup to post this to but i guess the misc is there for a reason here goes i am getting married in june to a devout wisconsin synod lutheran i would classify myself as a strong agnostic weak athiest this has been a a subject of many discussions between us and is really our only real obstacle we don t have any real difficulties with the religious differences yet but i expect they will pop up when we have children i have agreed to raise the children nominally lutheran that is lutheran traditions but trying to keep an open mind i am not sure if this is even possible though i feel that that the worst quality of being devoutly religous is the lack of an open mind anyway i guess i ll get on with my question is anyone in the same situation and can give some suggestions as to how to deal with this we ve taken the attitude so far of just talking about it a lot and not letting anything get bottled up inside sometimes i get the feeling we re making this much bigger than it actually is any comments would be greatly appreciated also please e mail responses since i don t get a chance to read this group often paul
talk.religion.misc	re rw is robert weiss the only orthodox christian i m curious to know if christians ever read books based on critique on the religion classical text such as age of reason by paine or the myth maker by jacobi sometimes it is good to know your enemy and if you want to do serious research you have to understand both sides and not solely the one and only right one yes one does i examined a critique of the book of romans by i think benjamin franklin once a deist i found it amazing that benjamin franklin missed the whole boat i also have the writings on thomas jefferson sitting on my shelf and it is amazing how much he missed i have studied plato s theory of forms and aristotelian hylomorphesism what a pile of junk jesus makes plato and aristotle look like kindergardeners psychology the id ego superego by freud elements of truth but jesus explained it far better and gave reasons thomas paine benjamin franklin thomas jefferson are mere men they can screw up the bible just as well as any man i do not put these men on a pedestal and if i remember t j s autobiography correctly he thought thomas paine was the most unread man he ever met here s some more circular reasoning to you paul says to the corinthians that that the gospel will be foolishness to the world because it is spiritually discerned and so people without the spirit of god haven t a clue to what the bible is saying from your point of view that s incredibly circular and convenient to me it is mysteriously and supernaturally bizarre i can see it but you can t this is not arrogance on my part trust me it is as bizarre to you as it is to me but nonetheless it is a truth explainable or not are any of you color blind to red and green i am remember those dot tests they do at the optomologist s they put pictures in front of you and you are supposed to identify the pattern in the dots if your eyes are perfectly normal you can see letters or numerals embedded in the dots they are a slightly different color and stand out from the background but if you are color blind to red and green you will not see anything but gray shaded dots that is how a dot test appears to me i do not see a pattern at all a normal seeing person will see the patterns and to him i seem like a total anomaly to him i appear as if i am missing the universe or something it is hard for him to understand why i can t see anything that to him is as plain as day that it what it is like with the bible the word of god to the believer the believer can see the meaning in the words i can see how the patterns fit together there is such depth such consistency but then on the other hand i notice the non believer he doesn t see it he thinks i am weird because he thinks i am seeing things i look at him and say no you are weird you do not see then it is time for a sanity check i go to another christian and say do you see this and they go yes it is an x and i say thank god i see the x too it is truly the strangest thing it adds a little extra dimension to the phrase he will make the blind see and the deaf hear i am glad that jesus has enabled me to see i wish every non believer could see what they are missing
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened in article apr rigel tamu edu mst rigel tamu edu mitchell s todd writes in article apr scubed com wilkins scubed com darin wilkins writes in article c w ca m s noose ecn purdue edu tbrent ecn purdue edu timothy j brent writes if you check the news today ap the authorities also found a state of the art automatic machine gun that investigators did not know was in the cult s arsenal carl stern justice department in article r hmlinnc mojo eng umd edu russotto eng umd edu matthew t russotto writes yeah in a fire that reportedly burned hotter than degrees hot enough to make the bodies still unidentifiable the authorities found a gun that was recognizably fully automatic and state of the art isn t that conveeeenient assuming the most favorable interpretation of your degree measurement that the temperature is in centigrade rather than the more common in the us fahrenheit you are still laboring under at least misconceptions you seem to believe that steel melts somewhere around c actually the melting point of most iron alloys and steels are iron alloys is in the neighborhood of c even if the gun were found in area which achieved the c temperature the steel parts of the gun would not be deformed and it would still be trivial to identify the nature of the weapon steel may not melt at c but it will weaken expand and deform if there is enough of a load on the steel like the load on a steel roof truss or the pressure exerted by steel parts in a machine trying to expand against each other the steel can and will deform extensively for the record any weapon found in the cult compound should be indentifiable but it may be impossible to do normal ballistics tests because of the damage done to the weapon if if if anyway the question was if the gun was identifiable which it is tim mitchell s todd timothy j brent a man will come to know true happiness brent bank ecn purdue edu only when he accepts that he is but a small part of an infinite universe purdue university spinoza materials science engineering paraphrased
talk.religion.misc	re branch athiests cult was rawlins debunks creationism king ctron com john e king writes scharle lukasiewicz cc nd edu scharle writes for your information i checked the library of congress catalog and they list the following books by francis hitching ahha now with the branch athiests zealots we have the following i think you are mistaken in thinking tom scharle to be a atheist you will find both atheists and christians among your opponents on t o calling your opponents them branch athiests zealots does nothing for your credibility let me try again oh yes do the doubt that has infiltrated the previous smugly confident certitude of evolutionary biology has inflamed passions there is lack of agreement even within warring camps sometimes it seems as if there are as many variations on each evolutionary theme as there are individual biologists niles eldridge yes he s a paleontologist natural history evolutionary housecleaning feb pg dear me this is taken so out of context that it s hard to know where to start the quote starts with material from p and ends with material from page on page there s the bit that says the parts left out in john king s quote are marked by the doubt that has infiltrated the previous smugly confident certitude of evolutionary biology s last twenty years has inflamed passions and provoked some very interesting thought and research eldridge goes on immediately following the butchered quote in short evolutionary biology has entered a phase of creativity that is the hallmark of good active science the material that is on page that is quoted by john king has been butchered even more severely i mention this only to illustrate the there is these words not in the original text prl lack of agreement even within warring camps things are really in uproar these days and each of the basic ways of looking at evolutionary biology has its minor variants sometimes it seems as if there are as many variations on each evolutionary theme as there are individual biologists eldridge goes on but that s the way it should be this is how science is supposed to operate jack and just a few sentences down when they creationists misrepresent the exuberant creative doubt and controversy permeating evolutionary biology these days they are actively promoting scientific illiteracy and that john e king is precisely what you have done with eldridge s article are you personally responsible for the butchery of the text or have you pulled it out of some creationist propaganda you owe the people reading t o an apology for posting such misrepresentation peter lamb prl csis dit csiro au
talk.religion.misc	revised easy to read bom available i am pleased to announce that a revised version of the easy to read book of mormon former title mormon s book by lynn matthews anderson is now available through anonymous ftp see information below in addition to the change in title the revised etr bom has been shortened by several pages eliminating many extraneous that s and of s and many minor errors have been corrected this release includes a simplified joseph smith story testimonies of the three and eight witnesses and a words to know glossary as with the previous announcement readers are reminded that this is a not for profit endeavor this is a copyrighted work but people are welcome to make verbatim copies for personal use people can recuperate the actual costs of printing paper copy center charges but may not charge anything for their time in making copies or in any way realize a profit from the use of this book see the permissions notice in the book itself for the precise terms negotiations are currently underway with a mormon publisher vis a vis the printing and distribution of bound books sorry i m out of the wire bound first editions i will make another announcement about the availability of printed copies once everything has been worked out ftp information connect via anonymous ftp to carnot itc cmu edu then cd pub you won t see anything at all until you do the easy to read book of mormon is currently available in postscript and rtf rich text format ascii latex and other versions can be made available contact dba andrew cmu edu for details you should be able to print the postscript file on any postscript printer such as an apple laserwriter let dba know if you have any difficulties the postscript in the last release had problems on some printers this time it should work better rtf is a standard document interchange format that can be read in by a number of word processors including microsoft word for both the macintosh and windows if you don t have a postscript printer you may be able to use the rtf file to print out a copy of the book r r r dba apr etrbom ps r r r dba apr etrbom rtf for more information about how this project came about please refer to my article in the current issue of sunstone entitled delighting in plainness issues surrounding a simple modern english book of mormon send all inquiries and comments to lynn matthews anderson hampton street pittsburgh pa dba lynn cs cmu edu
talk.religion.misc	re rw is robert weiss the only orthodox christian in article c vgyd h s acsu buffalo edu psyrobtw ubvmsd cc buffalo edu robert weiss writes in article librba byuvm bitnet librba byuvm bitnet writes rick anderson writes ra robert you keep making references to orthodox belief and saying ra things like it is held that cf kermit thread on what ra exact body of theology are you drawing for what you call orthodox orthodox is a compound word it comes from orthos straight true right and from doxa opinion doctrine teaching i use orthodox to refer to right teaching as opposed to universal or catholic or foursquare gosple i think that the greek orthodox church would take high offense at your misuse of the word your version of christianity is neither mainstream nor bible derived you make claims of bible centricity that are not derivable soley from the bible about six seven months ago you claimed that your primary objection to the lds was that our doctrine was not bible derived and now this and other claims can be shown are also not bible interpeting bible right teaching is derived from letting god speak to us through the bible this can be from reading simple truths in the scriptures and by using the bible to interpret the bible simple truths oh for example ra who is that holds that luke meant what you said he meant i think that it is apparent from reading the scriptures that are pertinent luke records christ s promise to the repentant thief who hung on an adjacent cross truly i say to you today you will be with me in paradise but was it not until later that christ rose from the dead and ascended to heaven if christ himself was not in heaven until sunday how could the repentant thief have been there with him the answer lies in the location of paradise when jesus died apparently paradise was not exalted to heaven until easter day paradise exalted to heaven paradise wasn t equal to heaven and now it is yet you claim that peeple can not be exalted to heaven nicht wahr jesus refers to it in the middle of the story of the rich man and lazarus as abraham s bosom to which the godly beggar lazarus was carried by the angels after his decease luke thus abraham s bosom referred to the place where the souls of the redeemed waited till the day of christ s resurrection when i read the story i found that abraham s bosom wasn t so much a place but somewhere the rich man could see and talk to abraham it was not yet lifted to heaven but it may well have been a section of hades hebrew sheol reserved for believers who had died in the faith but would not be admitted into the glorious presence of god in heaven until the price of redemption had actually been paid on calvary or even that none would precede the presence of jesus back to glory with the father gee this is fairly close to what the lds call spirit prison and what you have called false doctrine doubtless it was the infernal paradise that the souls of jesus and the repentant thief repaired after they each died on friday afternoon but on sunday after the risen christ had first appeared to mary magdalene john and her two companions matthew presumably he then took up with him to glory all the inhabitants of infernal paradise including abraham lazarus and the repentant thief we read in ephesians concerning christ ascending on high he led captivity captive he gave gifts unto men vers deleted reproduced below quoted from the sunspot gopher archive presumably he led the whole band of liberated captives from hades i e the whole population of preresurrection paradise up to the glory of heaven this part is not supported from scripture nor does it support your claim that the paradise where christ descended was exalted making such claims on this little evidence ignores the witness of the scripture sun ephas sun wherefore he saith when he ascended up on high he led captivity sun captive and gave gifts unto men sun sun x ref psalms sun thou has ascended on hight thout hast led captivity captive thou has sun recieved gifts for men yea for the rebellious aslo that the lord god sun might dwell amoung them sun sun ephas sun now that he ascended what is it but that he also descended first sun into the lower parts of the earth he that descended is the same sun also that ascended up far above all heavens that he might fill all sun things and he gave some apostles and some prophets and sun some evangelists and some pastors and teachers for the sun perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry for the sun edifying of the body of christ till we all come in the unity of sun the faith and of the knowledge of the son of god unto a perfect man sun unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of christ that we sun henceforth be no more children tossed to and fro and carried about sun with every wind of doctrine by the sleight of men and cunning sun craftiness whereby they lie in wait to deceive but speaking the sun truth in love may grow up into him in all things which is the head using this to argue that paradise or spirit prison is now changed from a pre easter postion to post easter by god postion is not supportable makeing such a claim requires more evidence than you have given here ra whenever your personal interpretation of biblical passages is ra challenged your only response seems to be that one needs merely to ra look at the bible in order to see the truth but what of those who ra see biblical things differently from you i think that this characterization is faulty whenever my personal interpretation is questioned i usually give a reason yes and your reasons are in general not supported by any direct reading of the scriptures you have demonstrated that you claims to scriptural proof need to be cross checked the referencs that you supply often do not support your postion if they are read in the context of the scripture as for those that see things differently please put forward where there is a valid difference and we can discuss it i seem to be seeing from you the notion that any difference in how one views the bible is somehow legitimate except or course for the stuff that i glean from it put forward a contrary view and perhaps we can have a discussion on that topic but to decry something that i put forward without putting forward something else to discuss and to dismiss what i put forward while giving credence to other alleged views that have yet to be put forward is simply being contentious how about that those who have been in paradise and have accepted the gosple will be judged of jesus christ and then return to the presence of god is that somehow different from your expressed view that the paradise spoken of or abraham s bosom ra are we to simply assume that you are the only one who really ra understands it if you believe that something that i have drawn from scripture is wrong then please show me from scripture where it is wrong simply stating that there are other views is not a proof show it to me from scripture and then we can go on should we go back and discuss your view on why the angle of the lord is the lord again robert weiss psyrobtw ubvms cc buffalo edu kermit tensmeyer intergraph corporation kltensme kt b a ingr com deep in dixie
talk.religion.misc	re burden of proof mark mccullough mccullou snake cs wisc edu wrote but if entertainment company sell computer programs saying they are virus safe doesn t they have burden of proof that viruses don t exist in their floppies i don t think so the assumption is there if it turns out that their software has a virus then it is up to you to prove that fact to a court to get any damages you are theoretically suppossed to be able to get damages for that but you have to give some evidence that the virus came from that software but since the computer company is the defendent they are uninvolved until proven guilty all right i m not and won t be lawyer what about doctors i going to fly aeroplane or drive car doctors have to look for different kind of illnesses in me before i get permission to fly an aeroplane they have burden of proof that harmful illnesses don t exist in me do they i m just questioning my belief that believers have the burden of proof please not pascal nooooo oh are you those bug generator c programmers turbo pascal is the best and fastest for edit run edit run cycles ktikkane phoenix oulu fi kari tikkanen b begin
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews in article r os hil agate berkeley edu isaackuo spam berkeley edu isaac kuo writes in article c wia hr apollo hp com goykhman apollo hp com red herring writes bd s were not contemplating suecide and there is no reason to believe they committed one no reason how about these two some of the survivors claimed that bd members poured fuel along the corridors and set fire to it the speed at which the fire spread is not inconsistent with this claim this morning on cnn tues april texas cops say arson is suspected because of two falsh points cnn also stated that all surviors claim the fires are fbi set your argument are made up untrue and unverified at best there was certainly a fire which killed most of the people in the compound there is a very very good possibility that the fbi did not start this fire this is a good reason to believe that the bd s did the day of the attack the fbi claimed to have seen two bd ers setting the fire outside of the compound yesterday the arson squad said two flash points at the or near the tank entry points not good evidence for the fbi hit squad even if the bd s were not contemplating suicide it is very possible that david koresh was convinced and thus convinced the others that this was not suicide it was the fulfilment of a profecy of some sort is there a difference between thinking that you won t survive a confrontation with the fbi parnoia and committing suicide there are three possibilities other than the bd s self destruction b the fire was started by an fbi accident this is possible but it would be foolish of us to declare this outright until more evidence can back it sure it s possible that the armored vehicle knocked down a lantern which started the fire why was there a lit lantern in the middle of the day near the edge of the complex it s anecdotal evidence that has been contradicted by other escapees no claimed by the escapees not contradicted what i m finding interesting is the conflicting reports fbi says that bodies have been found with bullet wounds and the texas cornuers sp says that they haven t yet found any bullet holes isaac kuo isaackuo math berkeley edu kermit tensmeyer intergraph corporation kltensme kt b a ingr com deep in dixie
talk.religion.misc	re tieing abortion to health reform is clinton nuts in article apr csrd uiuc edu g skinner uiuc edu writes i find myself unable to put these two statements together in a sensible way abortion is done because the mother can not afford the pregnancy if we refused to pay for the more expensive choice of birth then your statement would make sense but that is not the case so it doesn t are we paying for the birth or not mr parker if so why can t the mother afford the pregnancy if not what is the meaning of the latter objection you can t have it both ways birth pregnancy if they were the same the topic of abortion would hardly arise would it mr skinner frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
talk.religion.misc	re what part of no don t you understand on apr in re what part of no don t user steve novak advtech uswe writes eeb midway uchicago edu writes steve novak writes because of course that possibility existed meaning any student who really gave a shit could have a moment of silence on his her own which makes more sense than forcing those who don t want to participate to have to take part what other reason is there for an organized moment of silence a moment of silence doesn t mean much unless everyone participates otherwise it s not silent now is it the whole point is maybe everyone doesn t want to participate blindly opposing everything with a flavor of religion in it is utterly idiotic blindly opposing everything with a flavor of religion in it that is supported by taxpayer money is the only way to keep christianity from becoming the official u s religion not noticing that danger is utterly idiotic please provide evidence that having a moment of silence for a student who died tragically costs taxpayers money
talk.religion.misc	hell in the king james version of the bible there are three differents words translated into the word hell these greek words have totally different meanings the words are hades tartaros and gehenna in bibical usage the greek word hades is used only times in the new testament and is roughly the equivalent to the old testament word sheol meaning the grave or pit compare acts with psalms hades may be likened to a hole in the ground in the bible it has nothing to do with fire most modern bibical translators admit that the use in the english word hell to translate hades and sheol are an unfortunate and misleading practice why because when seeing the word hell many readers impute to it the traditional connotation of an ever burning inferno when this was never remotely intended in the greek language or in old english in its true bibical usage hades does indeed refer to the state or abode of the dead but not in the sense of spirits walking around in some sort of shadowy realm hades is simply the abode we call the grave all dead go to this hell the second hell of the bible tartaros is mentioned only once in scripture pet for if god spared not the angels that sinned but cast them down to hell tartaros and delivered them into chains of darkness to be reserved unto judgment following their rebellion to unseat god from his throne isa rev the archangel lucifer now satan and a third of the created angels now demons were ejected from heaven luke they were cast down to tartaros a place or condition of restraint that god has imposed on the mutinous angels as they await ultimate judgment jude cor tartaros then is a hell that applies only to evil rebellious angels or demons it is interesting that the ancient greeks used this word to describe the place in which zeus confined the rebellious titans nowhere in the bible is there any mention of men being put into this particular hell the the third word that is translated as hell in the bible is gehenna it comes from the hebrew gai hinnom meaning valley of hinniom hinnom is a deep narrow ravine located to the south and southwest of jerusalem in old testament times it was a place of abominable pagan rites including infant sacrifice it was there that the apostate kings ahaz and manasseh made their children pass through the fire to the god molech the rites were specifically celebrated in tophet the place of abhorrence one of the chief groves in the valley king josiah of ancient judah finally put an end to these abominations he defiled the valley rendering it ceremonially unclean kings later the valley became the cesspool and city dump of jerusalem a repository for sewage refuse and animal carcasses the bodies of dispised criminals were also burned there along with the rubbish fires burned continuously feeding by a constant supply of garbage and refuse aceldama the field of blood purchased with the money judas received for the betrayal of christ matt was also in part of the valley of hinnom so what does this valley called gehenna have to do with hell in rev the satan inspired political dictator and a miracle working religious figure the false prophet working with him will resist the re establishment of the government of god by jesus christ at his second coming their fate is revealed by the apostle john and the beast was taken and with him the false prophet these both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone where will this temporary lake of fire this hell be the prophet isaiah wrote of this lake of fire prepared for the beast for tophet in the valley of hinnom is ordained of old yea for the king it is prepared he hath made it deep and large the pile thereof is fire and wood the breath of the lord like a stream of brimstone doth kindle it isa one thousand years later satan himself will be cast into this rekindled fiery lake where the beast and false prophet were cast rev but what of the wicked who have died over the millennia does the bible say that they are now suffering fiery punishment for their sins in a lake of fire in the sequence of rev the incorrigibly wicked are resurrected to be thrown into the lake of fire after satan is cast there rev what will become of these wicked will they writhe in flames for eternity the wicked will be burned up from the intense heat of the coming gehenna fire on the earth they wil be consumed annihilated destroyed this punishment will be everlasting permanent and final the bible calls it the second death rev from which there is no possibility of a further resurrection the bible does teach eternal punishment but not eternal punishing the prophet malachi provides a graphic description for behold the day cometh that shall burn as an oven and all the proud yea and all that do wickedly shall be stubble and the day that cometh shall burn them up to the righteous god says that the wicked shall be ashes under the soles of your feet mal gehenna was a place of destruction and death not a place of living torture jesus was talking to jews who understood all about this gehenna or valley of hinnom utter destruction by fire was complete nothing was left but ashes every text in the bible translated from this greek word gehenna means complete destruction not living torture not eternal life in torment the bible says in romans the wages of sin is death not eternal life in torture the punishment revealed in the bible is death the cessation of life eternal life is the gift of god
talk.religion.misc	re cults who keeps them going muttiah thistle ecn purdue edu ranjan s muttiah writes in article sbuckley sfu ca sbuckley fraser sfu ca stephen buckley writes bad thoughts these well it depends on whether you take the literal dictionary definition of cult and say all faiths are cults or if you take a more social context view of cult which allows you to recognize mainstream religions as socially acceptable and cults as groups that involve techniques of brain washing and all the other characteristics that define oppressive probly not the best word cult behaviour yeah but implicitly the social context view provides a justification for the dictionary definition of a cult those who follow the mainstream pretend while those in cults act based on the very same impulses now who is to be taken seriously i m confused could you restate what yer saying in those who follow the mainstream pretend and act based on the very same impulses
talk.religion.misc	re what right joakimr ifi uio no joakim ruud writes recently i ve asked myself a rather interesting question what right does god have on our lives always assuming there is a god of course in his infinite wisdom he made it perfectly clear that if we don t live according to his rules we will burn in hell well with what right can god make that desicion let s say for the sake of argument that god creates every one of us directly or indirectly it doesn t matter what then happens is that he first creates us and then turns us lose well i didn t ask to be created i guess i ought not conclude from this then that since you didn t ask to be created you don t care if you go to hell let s make an analogue if a scientist creates a unique living creature which has happened it was even patented does he then have the right to expect it to behave in a certain matter or die who is god to impose its rules on us who can tell if god is really so righteous as god likes us to believe are all christians a flock of sheep unable to do otherwise that follow the rest i don t consider myself an unthinking sheep the bible says god created us to be in communion and obedience to him the first and only rule was to not eat of a certain tree or else the punishment is distance from him and physical death god s intention in creating us is to have a relationship with us the bible documents god s attempts to have that relationship culminating in the person of jesus to bear the consequences of all sin so that all who accept him can have a relationship with god again the purpose of creation who is god to impose rules on us he s god and he created us i suppose he has a right based on who he is above you mention in his infinite wisdom and that s what i d say god exemplifies but if you were being sarcastic up there then this whole discussion is irrelevant eh and if we believe god is infinitely wise that belief should inform our relationship with him
talk.religion.misc	re religion and marriage pboxrud magnus acs ohio state edu paul d boxrud writes i wasn t sure if this was the right newsgroup to post this to but i guess the misc is there for a reason here goes i am getting married in june to a devout wisconsin synod lutheran i would classify myself as a strong agnostic weak athiest this has been a a subject of many discussions between us and is really our only real obstacle we don t have any real difficulties with the religious differences yet but i expect they will pop up when we have children i have agreed to raise the children nominally lutheran that is lutheran traditions but trying to keep an open mind i am not sure if this is even possible though i feel that that the worst quality of being devoutly religous is the lack of an open mind just a point i suppose if open mind means believing anything can be true or we can t for sure know what is definitely true i m happy to not be open minded if however open mindedness means being respectful and tolerant towards other beliefs respecting the rights and intelligence and wisdom of people of other beliefs and giving equal time to alternative ideas i try my very best to be open minded just a thot in passing anyway i guess i ll get on with my question is anyone in the same situation and can give some suggestions as to how to deal with this we ve taken the attitude so far of just talking about it a lot and not letting anything get bottled up inside sometimes i get the feeling we re making this much bigger than it actually is any comments would be greatly appreciated also please e mail responses since i don t get a chance to read this group often not being married i cannot say too much to you but from my perspective having mutually exclusive faiths would be a big enough roadblock for me in considering marrying someone making it much bigger than it is i suppose that depends on how serious each of you is in your beliefs lukewarm atheists and christians for whom religion is of nominal importance probly would feel the issue isn t very big i suppose the more important your beliefs are to each of you the more important the issue is paul
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened in article apr ifi uio no joakimr ifi uio no joakim ruud writes in article c u nv jgs ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com mark wilson writes in c sqya f v noose ecn purdue edu tbrent bank ecn purdue edu timothy j brent writes probably not but then i don t pack heavy weaponry with intent to use it please cite your evidence that he was intending to use it well he would be pretty stupid not to i mean what s the use of spending thousands of on something you won t use sorry if i m stepping on the toes of any members of some rifle association here rifles bought for hunting i can understand rifles bought for killing people or for just keeping i cannot just for the record i am myself a collector of medieval armour weaponry and i don t just have it hanging around i use it obviously only in fencing practice with friends well let me see if i can explain it it s similar to collecting coins or stamps or campaign buttons or coke bottles or juke boxes or model trains or just about anything else that is collected and just about everything is collected in all cases you might consider it something of an aberration i mean what purpose does it serve not much really it s just a hobby the collector yearns for diversity not much use in having two of the same thing except for trading selling it historical significance this was the thingy used by so and so technical significance this is the only one that does such and such like this this is the first one to do it this way rarity and so on some people use their collections other people do not as you state you use your collection in one sense this diminishes the value of your collection as the items suffer wear and exposure in another sense it can enhance your own enjoyment of your collection some people collect firearms that they do not use other people use some or all of the firearms they collect it s just personal preference oops personal preference i guess we re not supposed to have that any more are we j baker
talk.religion.misc	re why did they behave as they did waco reading suggestion in article rc f inn rl emx cc utexas edu bill emx cc utexas edu bill jefferys writes if you would like to understand better the sort of behavior that we saw in connection with the waco tragedy i d strongly recommend reading when prophecy fails by leon festinger henry riecken and stanley schachter available as a harper torchbook it goes a long way towards explaining how a belief system can be so strong as to withstand even overwhelming disconfirmatory evidence at least read the first chapter interestingly just as the branch davidians had roots in the seventh day adventist movement the sdas themselves had their roots in the millerite movement of the first half of the th century a movement that expected the end of the world in was disappointed when it did not take place and wound up as a church that s also how christianity came to be the immediate return of jesus was expected when it didn t happen they formed their own church
talk.religion.misc	re info about new age in article apr digi lonestar org qpalo digi lonestar org gerry palo the danger of anti cult groups is that while they can expose a lot of deception they can also become inquisitors as one who agrees with much of what they say i am also on the receiving end and it makes me realize the importance of respecting the freedom of belief of every individual and also of not jumping to conclusions and making accusations based on a priori assumptions about an individual or group for my money the primary danger of anti cult groups is that they are every bit as wacky as the groups they oppose and that by and large they have no compunctions about printing lies half truths and misleading innuendos as part of their exposes a recent book on cults i picked up by a christian author quite simply mixed in all non christian religions except the jews and various new age groups with various fringe groups of dubious intent and legality on the other hand the watchman fellowship does a good service in exposing deceptive practices that are far too common among the groups they monitor given the record of american christianity any group that falls into the category of fundamentalist or born again is automatically into the inquisition business it is an unavoidable affliction of those who have a proprietary license on the truth tm and let s not forget that jonestown and the branch davidians are just as much a part of the christian tradition as the missouri synod lutherans and may in fact be the massadas of true christian believers i am far more concerned about the encroachment of overtly christian indoctrination into public schools than i am about yoga classes there for those concerned with religious freedom without a selective inquisitiorial bent people for the american way p o box washington dc americans united for separation of church state fenton street silver spring md jack carroll
talk.religion.misc	re i ll see your demand and raise you was re after years etc in article c h w bfh darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes keith m ryan kmr po cwru edu wrote mand now mdeep thoughts m mby jack handey m mif you go parachuting and your parachute doesn t open and your friends are all watching you fall i think a funny gag would be to pretend you were swimming m keith as you must know by now there are no escape sequences here ansi or otherwise once you enter here your terminal beomes dumb there s something significant about all this you are in the village many happy returns be seeing you your ways and means get reign of the tek
